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:::Two of 'em are opinion columns, and the rest are either hard news or PolitiFact's "fact-checking," which is routinely used as a RS in political articles. Oh, and there's a scientific study in there too. I'd be happy to discuss the Harvard study and WikiLeaks revelations on our talk pages, but it would be soapboxing to do it here. Feel free to ping me if you're interested. Cheers. ] (]) 05:13, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Two of 'em are opinion columns, and the rest are either hard news or PolitiFact's "fact-checking," which is routinely used as a RS in political articles. Oh, and there's a scientific study in there too. I'd be happy to discuss the Harvard study and WikiLeaks revelations on our talk pages, but it would be soapboxing to do it here. Feel free to ping me if you're interested. Cheers. ] (]) 05:13, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Nope, most of them are opinion pieces, except for the polls ones, and as far as that goes, who cares? Oh and the one that says "Why Hillary Clinton is So Hard to Trust Even When She's Telling the Truth" which actually says the opposite of what you are claiming it says.] (]) 05:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Nope, most of them are opinion pieces, except for the polls ones, and as far as that goes, who cares? Oh and the one that says "Why Hillary Clinton is So Hard to Trust Even When She's Telling the Truth" which actually says the opposite of what you are claiming it says.] (]) 05:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:::: also says the opposite of what you are claiming it says.] (]) 05:21, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
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view·edit Frequently asked questions
Q1: Was there a dispute about what the article title should be?
A1: Yes. From the early days on it was "Hillary Rodham Clinton", but over the years there were many formal requests for moves to change it to "Hillary Clinton". Discussions found no consensus on the article name until June 2015, when one found consensus and the article was moved to its current title. See the "This page was previously nominated to be moved" box elsewhere on this page for full details and links to the discussions – note some have to be revealed under the "Older discussions" link. There are strong feelings on both sides and discussions get progressively longer and more heated.
Q2: The section on her 2016 presidential campaign leaves out some important things that have happened. What gives?
A2: The main article is tight on space and the presidential campaign section is intentionally brief and kept to what is biographically most relevant. The daughter article Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016 has a much fuller treatment of the campaign and is where the greatest level of detail should go, especially anything describing the day-to-day, to-and-fro, ups-and-downs of a campaign.
Q3: This article is POV! It's biased {for, against} her! It reads like it was written by {her PR team, Republican hatchet men}!
A3: Complaints of bias are taken very seriously, but must be accompanied by specific areas of concern or suggestions for change. Vague, general statements do not help editors. Edits that add {{pov}} tags without providing a detailed explanation on the talk page will likely be reverted.
Q4: Where is the article or section that lists her controversies?
A4: There isn't one. All controversial material is included in the normal biographical sections they occur in, in this article (including sometimes in Notes or footnotes) and in the various daughter articles. Having a separate "controversies" or "criticisms" article or section is considered a violation of WP:NPOV, WP:Content forking, and WP:Criticism and also raises significant WP:BLP concerns. A special effort was undertaken to rid all 2008 presidential candidates' articles of such treatment – see here – and the same was done for other politicians' articles, including all the 2012 and 2016 candidates. This approach was also confirmed by the results of this AfD and this AfD.
Q5: Something in the lead section doesn't have a footnote. I'm going to put a {{citation needed}} tag on it.
A5: This article, like many others on Misplaced Pages, uses the approach of no citations in the lead section, as everything in the lead should be found in the body of the article, along with its citation. See guideline: MOS:LEADCITE.
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
RM, Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton, Moved to Hillary Clinton (non-admin closure), closed 18 June 2013
MR, Closure as move of Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton, Moved back to Hillary Rodham Clinton (no clear consensus for the previous move), closed 28 June 2013
RM, Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton, Speedy close as no consensus (non-admin closure), closed 24 February 2014
RM, Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton, No consensus to move (admin panel closure), closed 21 April 2014
MR, Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton, No consensus, default to endorse, and procedural restrictions established: No further move request to be started until February 2015, and between February 2015 and February 2017, or the closure of the next valid move request, whichever is earlier, no move request to be made unless at least 5,000 characters in length, closed 31 May 2014
RM, Hillary Rodham Clinton → Secretary Clinton, Speedy close since another RM open (non-admin closure), closed 17 April 2014
RM, Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary (politician), Speedy close as unlikely and potentially disruptive (non-admin closure, rapidly endorsed by admin), closed 27 April 2014
RM, Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton, Summarily closed citing prior declaration that if an RM is submitted prior to February 2017 it must be at least 5,000 characters in length (non-admin closure), closed 9 April 2015
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In the edit history, I made an incorrect assertion about another's edits. I claimed that an editor removed material and references (see this diff - ). This is incorrect. The editor only removed a small of amount of text and did not remove any references. I was confused by three edits in a row, where it appeared to me that text and references had been removed. I apologize for saying references were removed. At the same time, I think it was appropriate to restore the removed text because no rationale was given for its removal. Thanks. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 07:25, 15 December 2016
The Subsequent activities section should be minimal
I took the liberty of snipping Clinton's comments on several Trump antics/actions. I heartily voted for Mrs. Clinton last fall, but she is not a currently-serving Democrat and being an ex-presidential candidate with no intentions of running again is really not a leading party position. She is not the voice of the Democratic opposition to Trump and her opinions on current political affairs are that of a private citizen, albeit an incredibly famous and still-popular one. ValarianB (talk) 19:35, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
Her "subsequent activities" should be weighted appropriately based on their significance in press coverage. Your opinions of her aren't relevant, and the media coverage of her suggests that her opinions still matter. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:56, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
I also agree with Muboshgu. While it's arguably a "chicken-or-the-egg" question (Is she still an important public figure because the public/media is still interested? -- OR -- is the public/media still interested because she is still an important public figure?). But let's let the major media coverage arbitrate that issue, not Misplaced Pages.
Keep in mind that the post-defeat activities of most of the recently-defeated major-party U.S. Presidential nominees (e.g.: Jimmy Carter, Bob Dole, Al Gore, John Kerry, John McCain) have continued to be of broad public interest long after their electoral defeat, and -- in many cases -- had significant continuing political and/or social influence... and even been widely considered as key potential future Presidential candidates.
And, in any case, for at least a few years after their defeat, they are widely considered, quite logically, to be the de facto spokesperson for that broad segment of the population who nominated them for the Presidency -- and often the unofficial, but commonly accepted, primary spokesperson for the tens of millions of voters who were on the losing side in the last Presidential election... until the next Presidential nominee of their party emerges.
Does every scandal that Bill Clinton's administration had need to be covered in this article, in more depth than on Bill's article? Power~enwiki (talk) 19:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
She was a key figure in those stories. It could be written in a more concise style. I prefer too to begin with the outcome (e.g., "there was insufficient evidence to prosecute") rather than leave readers in suspense. TFD (talk) 23:21, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Reverted POV in intro
Rather than inserting "...but Hillary!"-style POV into this article because negative information is in that guy's page, might want to clean up that guy's page instead. The response to POV on another page isn't to introduce it into another. Acalamari01:11, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
They restored the comments; I removed after making sure they had been warned about the Discretionary Sanctions. For purposes of discussion, this is what they want to add:
She made many false statements during her campaign ,
The user made it clear, from their edit summaries, that their purpose in adding this material was POV. But let's discuss whether something neutrally worded could or should be added to the article on these three points. --MelanieN (talk) 01:31, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
That's true, but that doesn't mean all their ideas are bad. The "age" thing could be used in the article text, if it isn't already there. The "false statements" comment does not belong here; she falls in the "all politicians lie occasionally" category, while Trump according to numerous reliable sources is in an unprecedented class by himself when it comes to false statements. And I am open to discussion whether to mention the FBI probe in the lede. --MelanieN (talk) 03:36, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
According to a scientific Quinnipiac poll taken in the middle of the campaign, most people associated the word "liar" when asked what they thought of Secretary Clinton. "Arrogant," on the other hand, was used for the president. In July 2016, CNN's poll showed that 68% of people didn't think the word "trustworthy" applied to Clinton. 55% of people thought the word didn't apply to Trump. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but the thesis that "Trump lies more than Hillary" just isn't backed by the numbers (regardless of what the "fact checking" blog PolitiFact thinks). I'd argue that Clinton was criticized far more for her allegedly false statements than Trump was, and this should absolutely 100% be reflected in the lead. The criminal investigation is also probably lead-worthy, as this was a major aspect of the entire campaign (justified or not). Her age is completely irrelevant and has no business being in the lead. It was much more significant that she was the first woman to win the DNC nomination. Just my two cents. Hidden Tempo (talk) 03:57, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Our statement has nothing to do with how many people THINK the individual tells lies. It is about actual evaluation of the truth or falsity of what they say - comparing the person's statement to the facts or state of nature, and leading to a determination whether the statement is true, somewhat true, somewhat false, mostly false, or totally false. Note that "liar" or "lie" does not appear anywhere in our evaluation, nor should it. "Liar" implies deliberate deception, whereas "false" can include falsehoods where the person actually believes that what they are saying is true, for example through ignorance or misinformation. Multiple fact checkers from many sides agree that Trump's usage of false statements is unprecedented, in a class by itself. ("President Trump is the most fact-challenged politician that The Fact Checker has ever encountered... the pace and volume of the president's misstatements means that we cannot possibly keep up.") That is what our statement is about. It is not about polls. --MelanieN (talk) 22:30, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I actually didn't mean to turn this into a "Who's a bigger liar?" debate so let me try to bring it back to the original content in question. Nowhere in this article is it appropriate to refer to Clinton as a "liar" or refer to "lies" she may or may not have told. However, her honesty was constantly called into question by both parties and was fiercely criticized for a perceived inability to tell the truth (again, not my opinion, but the fact that she was constantly criticized for past and ongoing false statements is factually correct). Certainly, this article's lead is just as deserving as the Trump article's lead of a note about this. A neutral statement such as "Her campaign received extensive free media coverage; many of her public statements were controversial or false" would work well. Similarly, the criminal investigation into her handling of classified material (regardless of any of our personal feelings about its validity) was the single biggest issue that dogged Clinton's campaign from beginning to end. She repeated the false claim that there was no classified material on her server endlessly, only to be refuted by James Comey last July. Both facts deserve a neutral mention. Hidden Tempo (talk) 23:33, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
her honesty was constantly called into question by both parties and was fiercely criticized for a perceived inability to tell the truth (again, not my opinion, but the fact that she was constantly criticized for past and ongoing false statements is factually correct). You keep saying this. Could you provide us with some Relaible Source examples of how she "constantly" had her honesty called into question and was "fiercely criticized" for an inability to tell the truth? The election wasn't that long ago, and I mostly remember this kind of talk coming from partisans or opponents of hers, not from neutral sources - although neutral sources may have and almost certainly did call attention to individual examples of false or misleading statements. In contrast, Trump has been called a liar in headlines from neutral, reliable sources, and fact checkers have said his level of false statements was unprecedented. That's why it is the Trump lede. Do you have any comparable neutral reliable sources saying anything similar about Clintion? --MelanieN alt (talk) 02:25, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
@MelanieN I do believe we've been through this before, but unfortunately I'm unaware of a method to search the archives for certain phrases. Here is a smattering I found on the first page of Google. Note that I only included two opinion pieces, and zero conservative news outlets (as only liberal outlets are considered reliable here, which still baffles me). WND, Free Beacon, National Review, the Washington Times, the Washington Examiner, and The Federalist have done some really great journalistic work on this particular topic. That being said, even outlets that formally endorsed Clinton/condemned Trump documented her pattern of making false statements, especially during her campaign:
Liberal and non-partisan sources discussing Clinton's "lies" and "false statements"
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Again, this is just a sample. From the above list, we have two liberal RS that say Hillary literally "can't stop lying/fudging the truth." Another liberal source says that her candidacy was "marred" by questions of her truthfulness. A highly respected libertarian magazine contains the no-nonsense headline "Clinton lies about lying about her lies," and refer to her lying as a "tendency." It should also be pointed out that in that 300+ source list that allegedly call Trump a liar, "neutral" is a highly subjective term. I don't want to soapbox and writing the above list was hard enough as it is to make it BLP-compliant, but there's a Harvard media study that came out a month or two ago that I'd love to talk to you about on my talk page (or yours). The scientific poll out of highly regarded tl:dr - Quinnipiac also showed the words "crook," "untruthful," "criminal," "deceitful," "corrupt," and "crooked" on Clinton's word association list. On Trump's? "Honest" and "truthful." "Untrustworthy" was the only adjective that appeared on both lists. The first two contentious edits at the top of this section are highly due and strikingly well-sourced. The third seems trivial and not all that relevant. Hidden Tempo (talk)
Two of 'em are opinion columns, and the rest are either hard news or PolitiFact's "fact-checking," which is routinely used as a RS in political articles. Oh, and there's a scientific study in there too. I'd be happy to discuss the Harvard study and WikiLeaks revelations on our talk pages, but it would be soapboxing to do it here. Feel free to ping me if you're interested. Cheers. Hidden Tempo (talk) 05:13, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Nope, most of them are opinion pieces, except for the polls ones, and as far as that goes, who cares? Oh and the one that says "Why Hillary Clinton is So Hard to Trust Even When She's Telling the Truth" which actually says the opposite of what you are claiming it says.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Would someone look at this? This is a featured article so the content must be at a higher standard. In the Wellesley College years section, around the 3rd paragraph, it states "Clinton would later write in 2003 that her views at this time changed...". The next sentence states "In a letter to her youth minister at this time...". If there are quotes that reflect this language then it should be presented. Twice in two sentences using "at this time", that appears to be a POV for a definitive point in time when she changed her mind, direction, or party affiliation, is dubious. It does not matter why she made a change and unless the source of the 2003 writing and the letter to the youth minister are the same, or her writing does in fact show she indicated twice "at this time", this is not appropriate for such an article. Otr500 (talk) 09:16, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
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view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q1: Was there a dispute about what the article title should be?
A1: Yes. From the early days on it was "Hillary Rodham Clinton", but over the years there were many formal requests for moves to change it to "Hillary Clinton". Discussions found no consensus on the article name until June 2015, when one found consensus and the article was moved to its current title. See the "This page was previously nominated to be moved" box elsewhere on this page for full details and links to the discussions – note some have to be revealed under the "Older discussions" link. There are strong feelings on both sides and discussions get progressively longer and more heated.
Q2: The section on her 2016 presidential campaign leaves out some important things that have happened. What gives?
A2: The main article is tight on space and the presidential campaign section is intentionally brief and kept to what is biographically most relevant. The daughter article Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016 has a much fuller treatment of the campaign and is where the greatest level of detail should go, especially anything describing the day-to-day, to-and-fro, ups-and-downs of a campaign.
Q3: This article is POV! It's biased {for, against} her! It reads like it was written by {her PR team, Republican hatchet men}!
A3: Complaints of bias are taken very seriously, but must be accompanied by specific areas of concern or suggestions for change. Vague, general statements do not help editors. Edits that add {{pov}} tags without providing a detailed explanation on the talk page will likely be reverted.
Q4: Where is the article or section that lists her controversies?
A4: There isn't one. All controversial material is included in the normal biographical sections they occur in, in this article (including sometimes in Notes or footnotes) and in the various daughter articles. Having a separate "controversies" or "criticisms" article or section is considered a violation of WP:NPOV, WP:Content forking, and WP:Criticism and also raises significant WP:BLP concerns. A special effort was undertaken to rid all 2008 presidential candidates' articles of such treatment – see here – and the same was done for other politicians' articles, including all the 2012 and 2016 candidates. This approach was also confirmed by the results of this AfD and this AfD.
Q5: Something in the lead section doesn't have a footnote. I'm going to put a {{citation needed}} tag on it.
A5: This article, like many others on Misplaced Pages, uses the approach of no citations in the lead section, as everything in the lead should be found in the body of the article, along with its citation. See guideline: MOS:LEADCITE.
