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Revision as of 22:36, 15 October 2017

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Changes challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Further information Enforcement procedures: Violations of any of these restrictions should be reported immediately to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Editors who are aware of this topic being designated a contentious topic and who violate these restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as obvious vandalism. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance. Whenever you are relying on one of these exemptions, you should refer to it in your edit summary and, if applicable, link to the discussion where consensus was clearly established. The contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topics sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

This article was nominated for deletion on October 13, 2016. The result of the discussion was Keep per WP:SNOW.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Jeff Guo (October 25, 2016). "Something's terribly wrong with the Internet and Misplaced Pages might be able to fix it". Washington Post. Retrieved October 25, 2016. It's downright startling, then, to observe what happens behind the scenes at Misplaced Pages. Go to any article and visit the "talk" tab. More often than not, you'll find a somewhat orderly debate, even on contentious topics like Hillary Clinton's e-mails or Donald Trump's sexual abuse allegations. Trevor Noah (4 April 2017). "Trump Launches Sexual Assault Awareness Month". The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Retrieved 4 April 2017. Like, I don't think you fully understand how deep Donald Trump's history with sexual misconduct goes. The allegations—just his allegations alone—have their own Misplaced Pages page. This is not a joke! It has five subsections. It goes on for page. It has 123 footnotes! Every time you donate to Misplaced Pages, half of that money has to go to maintaining Trump's sexual allegations page—that's all the money is for.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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Jennifer Murphy?

The Advocate ran an article, based on a series of tweets attributed to Judd Legum. He listed 14 names. 13 were present on Misplaced Pages. The missing one was Jennifer Murphy.

Jennifer Murphy. Apprentice contestant says Trump kissed her on the lips after a job interview in 2005. — Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) October 9, 2017

I've read a few articles on her reaction to the event. I don't know much about sexual assault or the standard for this page, but I thought it should be discussed on the talk page.

Mdnahas (talk) 15:04, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Haven't looked too deep, but my first two Google hits are headlined "Trump Kissed Her—But It's Okay" and "Trump kissed me, I wasn't offended". Sounds like she is not making an allegation of sexual misconduct. I don't think a welcome kiss clears the bar. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:43, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Edits about Jane Doe and further series of edits

The lead says: “Three of those women filed lawsuits, which were eventually settled or withdrawn, alleging that they were sexually assaulted by Trump.” This refers to Ivana Trump, Jill Harth, and a Jane Doe case that was dropped. That last item was the subject of an RFC at this talk page which resulted in exclusion of the info from this page. I will rephrase the lead accordingly. Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:40, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

 Done along with some other edits to this BLP. Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:23, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

100% neutral heading, read on for details

I have reverted a string of edits that insinuate that various statements concerning allegations of harassment are untrue. Any such edits should be proposed one by one here on talk so that policy-based consensus can be determined. SPECIFICO talk 19:06, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Please give me at least one example. I am not going to debate with you whether dead urls should be fixed. Editing policy says “Preserve appropriate content.“ You have violated this policy by removing content that is very clearly appropriate, on the basis that other content is inappropriate, while keeping secret what that other content is. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:13, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Support fixing dead URLs. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:18, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Support following policy which says to preserve appropriate content. This was an indiscriminate revert, and it would be 100% absurd to have a survey about every trivial edit. See WP:Editing policy. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I suggest you try one small edit and see if it stands. If not, come here and discuss it. Rinse. Repeat. This approach will make it easier to see if anybody is being obstructionist or disruptive. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:22, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I waited for more than six hours before continuing with these recent edits. You think I should have waited for more than six hours between each of them? It would take weeks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:26, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

@MelanieN: Suggestions? You can see my talk for a little more context. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:45, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Mixed into the fog of little tinkers and tidbits are egregious POV spins of language that cast undue unsourced doubt on women who state that they have been harassed. Repeatedly reinserting these and quick-draw editing, effectively preventing participation by editors less frequent and constantly watching than yourself, is not OK. And restoring this brand new POV language on the premise that it's preserving content? Makes no sense. SPECIFICO talk 20:03, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

This page has 123 watchers. Give it 2-3 days and you'll get a broader representation of the reaction to these edits. SPECIFICO talk 20:04, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Still not one example of inappropriate content, no acknowledgment that some of the removed edits were appropriate beyond “tinkers and tidbits”, no acknowledgment that I posted at this talk page before editing, no acknowledgment that I paused for more than six hours in the middle of editing to allow input, and no acknowledgment that WP:Editing policy bars indiscriminate reverts that remove appropriate content. What is the language that you claim is POV? You want to defy the RFC mentioned at the top of this immediately-preceding talk page section by having the lead refer to the Jane Doe suit? Apparently so. You want the section on litigation to exclude the Zervos litigation? Apparently so. If not, then what is your objection, and why won’t you follow the editing policy? Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:09, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Saying Ivana "recanted" without saying this was in the context of settlement of her divorce action? There's an example. My undo was not about your RfC. Patience is a virtue. 3 days from now, we will know what others think. SPECIFICO talk 23:02, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Of course it was in the context of divorce: “Ivana made a rape claim during their 1989 divorce litigation but later recanted that claim”. How does that omit context? The divorce was in 1989, she recanted in 1993, and again in 2016. The proposed language is as factual as it gets. Readers can also go look at the top picture caption if they want, plus there’s a whole subsection about it. There was a gag order that was part of the divorce settlement, but gag orders do not require people to affirmatively say anything such as “he never raped me”. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:15, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Well then why not say she recanted the allegation pursuant to a settlement agreement of their litigation. and many other sources. That's just what popped up. Gotta hop now. SPECIFICO talk 23:43, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Nothing in the December 1990 settlement agreement apparently required her to recant the allegation three years later, in 1993, or to say in 2016 that the allegation was “without merit”. That New Yorker article by Jane Mayer doesn’t say otherwise, but merely quotes a supposition by a book author named Hurt: “Hurt said that he considers the note a non-denial denial, and believes that Ivana agreed to amend her words in order to secure the divorce settlement, in which she reportedly received fourteen million dollars in cash.” Maybe she also said in 2016 that the charges were without merit because she had a financial incentive then too. We don’t know. What we do know is that her recantations in 1993 and 2016 were both years after the divorce was granted. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:59, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Survey

Aside from little tinkers and tidbits, are every single one of the edits that were removed in this edit POV violations, including (1) moving the Zervos material into the litigation section, (2) the removal from the lead of the material related to the Jane Doe lawsuit discussed at the beginning of this the immediately-preceding talk page section, (3) inclusion of a denial by Trump in the lead paragraph, (4) inline attribution of a quote to an opinion piece by Kristof, (5) mentioning Trump’s apology in the lead, (6) expanding the Trump quote about going backstage for context, (7) including Stern’s imitation of a contestant for context, and (8) including this quote for NPOV: “Most of the former contestants were doubtful or dismissed the possibility that Trump violated their changing room privacy”? Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:54, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

• No, they were not all POV violations. (In fact, none of them were, and no reason to the contrary has been offered.) Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:54, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
• I agree with many of the changes, particular to paragraphs two and three of the lede. The WP:LEAD must summarize the article and leaning one way or the other is a violation. Several of these allegations preceded Trump's candidacy for president... Then how come our article only describes two and not "several"? Anythingyouwant's version is more exactly and less NPOV. The inclusion of "three lawsuits" is in direct violation of the "Jane Doe" RfC even if we don't mention her explicitly. Adding denials and details of witnesses with conflicting accounts is also closer to WP:NPOV, we must keep WP:DUE weight in mind.LM2000 (talk) 22:15, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
• Anythingyouwant's changes were a vast improvement. The lead should reflect the body, yet this article's lead alludes to a third lawsuit (the "Jane Doe" hoax) that goes unmentioned in the body, while avoiding any summary of the relevant litigation. Consider the difference:
  • Current lead: "Three of those women filed lawsuits, which were eventually settled or withdrawn, alleging that they were sexually assaulted by Trump. Additionally one accuser filed a defamation lawsuit in 2017 after Trump called her a liar."
  • Anythingyouwant's revision: "Those accusations resulted in the following widely-reported litigation: his then-wife Ivana made a rape claim during their 1989 divorce litigation but later recanted that claim; businesswoman Jill Harth sued Trump in 1997 alleging breach of contract and nonviolent sexual harassment and the latter suit was withdrawn when the former was settled; and, in 2017, former game show contestant Summer Zervos filed a defamation lawsuit after Trump called her a liar."
• SPECIFICO has argued that these basic, uncontroversial facts undermine the credibility of Ivana and Harth's allegations, but—whether she is right about that or not—she has it backwards: The lead is supposed to summarize the body, including all of the essential facts; censoring relevant information to push a given narrative is anathema to Misplaced Pages policy, particularly in a WP:BLP. In any case, we are literally bound by long-standing consensus and a formal RfC to avoid discussing the "Jane Doe" lawsuit, so eliminating it from the lead should be an urgent priority. Furtheremore, as I have noted previously, Misplaced Pages's summary of the "Miss Teen USA" allegations diverges dramatically from the sources, which do in fact explicitly state: "Most of the former contestants were doubtful or dismissed the possibility that Trump violated their changing room privacy"; in past discussions on this talk page, I was told that exculpatory material should not be included because this article is devoted entirely to the accusations against Trump (e.g., here and here). Unfortunately, editors can and do abuse the "do not restore challenged edits" discretionary sanction to effectively override RfC consensus and cherrypick the content from sources. SPECIFICO, who has done this systematically across numerous articles, knows what she is doing—as does everyone else familiar with her Misplaced Pages history. (To give just one example, it is solely due to SPECIFICO's personal biases that Donald Trump's disclosures of classified information includes Erick Erickson but not Vladimir Putin: , , .)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:34, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

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