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*:{{u|RegentsPark}} hasn't edited in a few days, and I'm researching some other aspects of the case, which shouldn't stop anyone else, but wanted to update here. ] - ] 11:40, 12 January 2018 (UTC) | *:{{u|RegentsPark}} hasn't edited in a few days, and I'm researching some other aspects of the case, which shouldn't stop anyone else, but wanted to update here. ] - ] 11:40, 12 January 2018 (UTC) | ||
{{hab}} | {{hab}} | ||
==Anmolbhat== | |||
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===Request concerning Anmolbhat=== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Dilpa kaur}} 07:54, 13 January 2018 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Anmolbhat}}<p>{{ds/log|Anmolbhat}} | |||
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# Anmolbhat has made an accusation of meatpuppetry (″ Looks like a botched attempt of meat puppetry″) against another user on a page which is under Regents park's good faith sanction whereby any suggestion that another editor is not acting in good faith will lead to an immediate block. | |||
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This user has not just been blocked but had received repeated warnings about his incorrect behavior but still he does not show any sign of improvement. and has also been warned many times to stop their unconstructive editing. | |||
The user JosephusOfJerusalem also filed a complaint against Anmolbhat for breaking the civility restriction but the ] has only further emboldened this user to break ARBIPA sanctions even more. You would have expected he would learn but he is still doing it. And if unsubstantiated accusations of meat puppetry is not a personal attack (]) I do not know what is. | |||
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===Discussion concerning Anmolbhat=== | |||
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====Statement by Anmolbhat==== | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
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===Result concerning Anmolbhat=== | |||
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* |
Revision as of 07:54, 13 January 2018
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DHeyward
Sanction has been lifted, so closing this with no action. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:14, 12 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning DHeyward
See above
See above
Sorry about this, but this appears to be a blatant violation of the recent topic ban, which looks almost WP:POINTy to me. I don't know, maybe DHeyward has some explanation for it. (DHeyward does not mention or bring up his topic ban in that edit so this cannot be reasonably construed as an exception which seeks to clarify the nature of the sanction) @NeilN: - wasn't his appeal already declined? Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning DHeywardStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DHeywardStatement by MendalivBleh. Just looks like a ham-handed attempt to appeal the appeal that got closed at AN the other day. I don't think AE should do anything about it since, honestly, it's pretty clearly just an attempt to appeal to a higher power. That said, DHeyward should understand that if not for the fact that it appears to be an appeal a sanction to Jimmy Wales, who presumably has authority to overturn the sanction, that post would not be a good idea. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 09:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by The Rambling ManCommon sense anyone? Another editor gone, what a proud moment! Happy 2018! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by KingindianJimbo's talk page is recognized on Misplaced Pages as a special page, and functions as a de facto forum for many things. Please don't be pedantic and block for this. It is really petty of Volunteer Marek to even bring it here. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 05:01, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishesJimbo has no authority to resolve this. Therefore, talking at his talk page about Clinton can not be viewed as a "legitimate and necessary dispute resolution" by any reasonable account. The comment by DHeyward was a forum shopping on a talk page of a WP administrator. I agree with Dennis Brown. My very best wishes (talk) 15:54, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Sir JosephI think rightly or wrongly, most people here are under the impression that TBAN's don't apply to Jimbo's page. I also echo Kingsindian's comment. Sir Joseph 16:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranofHaving myself been topic-banned in the past, I made a couple impassioned (but fruitless) posts on Jimbo's talk page arguing my case, and was not sanctioned for it. I feel like engaging in lengthy discourse might be construed as disruptive of the ban, but as noted above, Jimbo's talk has traditionally allowed this. I did not enjoy editing under the topic ban precisely because I didn't want to have to look over my shoulder every edit wondering if someone was going to jump on me and drag me to this dramaboard - so as much as I have disagreed and continue to disagree with DHeyward, I empathize with him. I suggest that for everyone's sake, we step back a bit. Egregious violations would be one thing, but this is not that. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:18, 8 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Ryk72I had tentatively drafted something glib here, and then thought better of it. This seems, for want of a better word, incredibly petty. Some editors, when they feel slighted, maligned or wronged, lash out with personalised accusations of incompetence, bias, and auditory failure; others might drop a perhaps pointed note on the Talk pages of the great Jimbo. The first behaviour, discussed above, below & elsewhere, seems to be, if not acceptable, then at least accepted. Traditionally, the other has been covered as Render unto Caesar. One would hope that this instance could be considered accordingly; that this be swiftly and summarily closed; and we could all move on with "improving Misplaced Pages". NOthing is bettered by this filing remaining open, least not ourselves. I'll also note that a recent pattern of referring WP:AE filings for ban breaches to the previous sanctioning admin is not always conducive to removing heat from situations where the sanctioned editor might already feel victimised. - Ryk72 12:08, 12 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning DHeyward
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Raymond3023
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Raymond3023 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Raymond3023 (talk) 16:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- WP:ARBIPA
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification. Diff of notification.
Statement by Raymond3023
I am sanctioned for "misrepresenting what sources say and a repeated failure to understand this issue", there hasn't been any "repeated failure to understand this issue", I have never been alleged of misrepresenting sources ever. NeilN said I am responsible for the misrepresentation of the source on an article, that I was originally attempting to rescue from a G5 deletion, "mostly because it is notable and meets WP:LASTING".
Though he is correct about it and I will always remember that and that's something I had already acknowledged that I should be more cautious with checking the content on the article that I am rescuing from G5, NeilN still went ahead to sanction me despite without giving any other admin a chance to discuss, despite he had echoed that unless "another admin objects, I'm thinking of implementing a three month topic ban". Again, I will be more cautious with checking article and sources when I am taking responsibility of G5, but I find this sanction to be unjustified. Raymond3023 (talk) 16:27, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- NeilN, I have been always editing a number of different subjects. As for the diff that you have shown as "in the past", you need to know that my edits were accepted.
- Since the article(2006 Bhiwandi lynching) is going to be kept I am not understanding what you actually deemed to be disruptive. You could've simply asked me to modify the article in place of a topic ban. It seems largely WP:PUNITIVE for something that has been already fixed before you placed topic ban. Raymond3023 (talk) 17:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- NeilN, it seems that you are misrepresenting my statements. I was only asking you to clarify your objections, and the article had already went through enough changes when I replied to your message, it was already going under the process of editing now, and I was collaborating with that in place of reverting others. You seem to be implying that I was deliberately misrepresenting sources when that was not my intention at all, I was working to make the article better after agreeing with the suggested edits. And again, the only problem here was that I had to be more cautious with taking the responsibility, but I have acknowledge that, didn't I? Raymond3023 (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NeilN: it didn't took me any longer to acknowledge where I was wrong, same with Forbes, given my major aim was to get rid of it since there were many problems with the statement, as I had described on talk page and most editors agreed with it, with one editors had also said that Forbes is not enough for such a claim. But finally, my version was accepted. Same as here, it doesn't take me time to acknowledge where I am wrong. Raymond3023 (talk) 17:47, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- NeilN, I had acknowledged on talk page that Forbes link was a reliable source, however there was no consensus on talk page to include it. Raymond3023 (talk) 18:01, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NeilN: You had mentioned that "I would be willing to go with a formal warning about sourcing, indicating that further similar instances will result in a topic ban/block", I am ready to accept it and guarantee that you won't have to revisit this issue again. Raymond3023 (talk) 09:27, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NeilN: Yes some sources were either unreliable or contradicted the mainstream opinion as discussed on talk page of these articles, and my aim (on Vastu Shashtra) was that more sources could be discovered for the information that was being removed, as suggested by other editors as well. I also found the sources as well, the then disputed section was is now backed up with the sources that I had discovered. In fact I had fixed the misrepresentation of source on one of these article. I would say that these were simply content disputes. Raymond3023 (talk) 14:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Vanamonde93, you are misrepresenting the source here by calling it a "forbes list". Yes that source is an opinion piece since it was written by a contributor not staff, there have been many WP:RSN discussion about such sources and there was discussion about this particular source on Talk:Dangal (film)#Estimates, where we agreed not to add the opinion piece in question. The "article critical of Dalit politics" that you mentioned, you should know that information like "'epidermic determinism' of V.T. Rajshekar" was redundant for the article and it was not fitting on a section like "Religion" at all, although I did merged the content that could be merged into other sections. And the last edit that you mentioned was adhering to WP:BRD and had been supported by most other editors and was in compliance with the TFD outcome. Raymond3023 (talk) 15:11, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- I had been only restoring what was removed without explanation on Achieved status. Raymond3023 (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NeilN: let me confirm a few things here. Some diffs are exaggerated here, for example was not a revert, but we were attempting to reach consensus by editing. What do you mean by "confirmed" users? 10 edits and 4 days or 500 edits and 30 days? There are less than 600 "confirmed" users on Misplaced Pages. What if the user is violating BLP/copyrights? No question about other points though. Raymond3023 (talk) 00:45, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NeilN: Sure, let's move on with these terms. Raymond3023 (talk) 00:57, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Sitush, I missed your message here earlier. I can still clarify that my "position regarding notability" is correctly represented by D4iNa4, I only said on talk page that if there was a policy to merge all stubs to a bigger article, we would go for it but right now policy allows you to make stub that pass notability policies, thus we can retain small articles. Raymond3023 (talk) 03:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by NeilN
This comes out of a discussion here. Raymond took responsibility for article content here and here. Editors looking at the discussion on Bishonen's page will see the very first post identifies the issues with sourcing. My query to explain how the references backed up article content was ignored. A follow up reveals that Raymond did not see anything that was unsupported. A third post (repeating Vanamonde's points) finally got them to admit the text misrepresented the sources. Given there are issues with the sockpuppet's other articles Raymond restored and there are edit summaries in the past like this, I felt it would be good if Raymond could show how careful he is with sources in other areas. --NeilN 16:57, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Raymond3023: The article is the symptom, not the core issue. The core issue is your misrepresentation of what sources said and complete failure to understand the issue. Vanamonde93 clearly pointed out the misrepresentations in their first post. You made several subsequent posts, finally asking, "What do you actually find unsupported there?". This indicates you either didn't read the sources after Vanamonde93's post or actually did read the sources and somehow came to the conclusion that "Muslim mob" and "two radical Muslims" was supported until it you were confronted again about it by me. Editors cannot behave this way about sources, especially in this area. --NeilN 17:26, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: Not quite. It's not my view Raymond3023 took responsibility. He stated he took responsibility twice as shown in the diffs. And please see my subsequent post above. --NeilN 17:30, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
If admins think the topic ban is too harsh then I would be willing to go with a formal warning about sourcing, indicating that further similar instances will result in a topic ban/block. I am concerned about this editor's ability to read sources given the unrelated Forbes diff. --NeilN 17:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- D4iNa4, the reason why articles should be G5'd in this area is because they're often filled with POV that the sockmaster is trying to push. Your characterization of this on 2006 Bhiwandi lynching as "rather a minor issue" is concerning. --NeilN 17:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- GoldenRing, what do you think about Raymond3023's statement about about the Forbes source? "iven my major aim was to get rid of it" is in no way a good justification for a misleading edit summary. --NeilN 17:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- 42.111.133.233, please disclose your prior account per WP:SCRUTINY. --NeilN 22:08, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- GoldenRing I believe the sanction was appropriate but am always open to what is "more appropriate". Raymond3023, do you have any comments on the evidence presented by Ms Sarah Welch? --NeilN 13:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
If I have the process right, Raymond3023 can re-appeal any modified sanction I place upon him so in the interests of not doing this all over again, I'll propose it here first:
Fox six months Raymond3023 will:
- Not remove any WP:G5 tags from WP:ARBIPA articles
- Abide by WP:1RR on WP:ARBIPA topics (IPs and unconfirmed editors excepted)
- Ensure the sources he's using fully and accurately back up the content he's proposing. He will be required to produce the necessary excerpts from sources if challenged by an experienced editor
- Take care not to misrepresent the validity or reliability of a source
Failure to abide by any one or more of these conditions may result in an immediate topic ban or block. Raymond3023 do you agree to these conditions? --NeilN 21:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Re-pinging @Raymond3023: --NeilN 21:39, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
@Raymond3023: You will have to observe WP:1RR with all autoconfirmed editors - 10 edits, 4 days. WP:1RR has the same exemptions as WP:3RR - reverts for vandalism, BLP violations, etc., don't count. See WP:3RRNO for the full list. --NeilN 00:53, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
I've recorded the modification here. Issues were raised about other editors but I believe they have little merit and the appeal should be closed. --NeilN 01:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Vanamonde93
Since I brought this to NeilN's attention, let me supply that evidence once again. Here is the sequence of incidents which prompted this ban:
1) I tagged a number of articles created by the blocked sock John Jaffar Janardhan for CSD#G5, including 2006 Bhiwandi Lynching.
2) Raymond3023 reverted my tags, including on the aforementioned page.
3) I restored the tags, including at the aforementioned page.
4) Raymond3023 posted to the talk page of that article, "taking responsibility" for it.
5) I noticed that the article contained severe source misrepresentation, and posted to Bishonen's talk page, asking her to deal with it.
6) Despite being asked explicitly by NeilN about the source misrepresentation, Raymond3023 denied any wrongdoing, and judging by the appeal is still unable to see that what he did was a problem.
So, I recommend this appeal be declined. Vanamonde (talk) 17:24, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Sandstein: Please take a look at the links I have provided here. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 17:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Sandstein and GoldenRing: If the issue were limited to simply flouting WP:V, I'd agree with you. As Sitush says, though, the text in question flouted verifiability with the obvious intent of pushing an anti-Muslim point of view. Religious and nationalist conflict is at the heart of our trouble with ARBIPA topics, and violations such as these are not to be taken at all lightly. Vanamonde (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2018 (UTC) (re-sign for ping Vanamonde (talk) 03:18, 9 January 2018 (UTC)).
- I could take a good guess as to the identity of the IP, but they are likely to complain about outing if I do so. So, until they disclose their account, let me just say that when an IP who admits to having a previous account jumps to the defense of an editor who was protecting the work of a blocked sock at an obscure noticeboard, I find it very suspicious. Vanamonde (talk) 03:18, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NeilN: If we're now looking at further instances of a problematic approach to sources, there's plenty of evidence at hand. There's another instance of referring to a Forbes list as an opinion piece. An instance of removing an opinion piece critical of Hindu-nationalism, and a scholarly article critical of Dalit politics, but keeping an opinion piece critical of Zionism. Oh, and there's this gem, too, which is particularly ironic given the articles which Raymond attempted to keep, thereby beginning this dispute. Vanamonde (talk) 14:54, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- More, admittedly only partially related to Indian politics: the addition of completely unsourced original research related to achieved versus ascribed status. Vanamonde (talk) 15:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by D4iNa4
Raymond3023 had to be guided about WP:G5 that when you are taking responsibility you are responsible for every word of the article. But that's it. Looking at the content in question, it is not even vandalism, copyright or BLP violation. It is rather a minor issue and Raymond was collaborating on talk page.
FWIW, Raymond is correct about the notability of the article, and should be appreciated for contesting the unwarranted speedy deletion. Compared to most of the editors in this area, Raymond is not disruptive, he is rather a knowledgeable editor who already realized his mistake prior the topic ban. Since the sanction was unwarranted and apparently punitive, I am supporting removal of the topic ban. D4iNa4 (talk) 17:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Sitush
I've done a very small bit of very significant fixing at the 2006 Bhiwandi lynching article and opened a significant discussion on its talk page. D4iNa4 characterising the problems there as being "minor" is very disturbing. The article was quite obviously an anti-Muslim hatchet job and I'm afraid that as such it falls near the very heart of our existing discretionary sanctions regimes. Stoking communal pressures like this is not a "minor issue" and I am alarmed at that suggestion from someone whom I've seen editing Indic articles quite a lot. - Sitush (talk) 18:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Addendum: D4iNa4 also incorrectly represents Raymond3023's position regarding notability of the article, as that talk page makes clear. - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Raymond3023
Comment by Winged Blades of Godric
- Comment--A G5 deletion tagging can't be classified as warranted/unwarranted.Also, when you're taking responsibility for G5ed articles you ought to be very sure about the content, for the community does take a very dim view of sockpuppets and any knownful association to them.Winged Blades 17:40, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Comment by Ms Sarah Welch
There are serious sourcing issues with Raymond3023 edits, far beyond the article in question. See, these three articles for example:
- Vastu Shastra: Raymond claims sources are reliable and support the text. No, they are not per Joshua Jonathan, and more detailed analysis confirms source misrepresentation and OR. See the whole talk page for more tendentious arguments by Raymond3023, such as here.
- Bhimbetka rock shelters: Raymond3023, my response.
- Kalki: Raymond alleging "enough sources" and misrepresenting something as fringe, my response asking for sources to back up their allegations. No response from Raymond3023. Mere repetition and TE: Raymond's claim, my response, Raymond alleges scholarly sources are unreliable, my request for evidence. No response again.
I support NeilN's ARBIPA action. Maybe it was too short, measured, modestly trying to encourage behavior modification, as NeilN's actions generally tend to be. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NeilN: Raymond senses the issue here but is not fully understanding our concerns. Finding more sources is not our concern, we welcome such good faith efforts. The concern is that his summaries do not reflect the source, and repeatedly reflect an intent that is neither neutral nor constructive. The edit warring with admins and seasoned editors such as Joshua Jonathan to restore misrepresented dubious content makes it worse, repeatedly running to RPP for full page protection of articles with dubious / POV-y / inflammatory content more so. Their willingness to quote[REDACTED] rules far exceeds their willingness to quote the source. All this needs to stop. Plain and simple, without defensive arguments. Raymond comes across like a smart person and one who can possibly reform as Kautilya3 notes, but he needs to consider some behavioral changes. Here are three suggestions: Voluntarily accept no more than 1RR in ARBIPA space articles if the other editor is admin or a significant contributor (>2,000 edits); If in dispute, he must quote a few complete lines/excerpts from the source plus give link or source info with page number on the article's talk page, with that 1RR; and Less trips to RPP when the other parties are admins/seasoned editors. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Comment by (IP)
This is a user from Hyderabad India ,I used to edit Misplaced Pages but quit in 2016,If anyone wants to know my previous account can disclose it privately.The Edits were made by User:John Jaffar Janardan not by Raymond3023 who neither reverted nor added the content only removed the deletion tag as the subjects are clearly notable .If there is a case of pushing anti-Muslim point of view ,It was done by User:John Jaffar Janardan the articles created when I used to edit were done in 2016 and were never edited by Raymond3023 until they were tagged by Vanamonde .This article Paras Rajput was POV deleted after being tagged by Vanamonde .It was No consenus in a AFD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Paras Rajput hence should not been speedy deleted .Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement should not be used to settle disputes over content issues of Vanamonde and other editors.Again the issue over sources discussed in talk in Vastu_shastra is a Multi editor discussion Ms Sarah Welch should have disclosed her previous account User:ApostleVonColorado and was earlier under sanction which the user is concealing. 42.111.133.233 (talk) 21:49, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- :@MastCell: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement should not be used in content disputes which are multi editor and almost all of them have discussed in talk and it was never reverted or inserted by the concerned editor but done by another editor in 2016 a editor only removes the deletion tag and there is no revert warring.42.111.133.233 (talk) 22:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Comment by Capitals00
@Sandstein and GoldenRing: You have analyzed what Raymond did, but admins should also look at the misconduct of Vanamonde93.
As per the Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy, "Speedy deletion is meant to remove pages that are so obviously inappropriate for Misplaced Pages that they have no chance of surviving a deletion discussion", yet Vanamonde93 still tagged the article that is likely going to survive a deletion discussion and policy also notes that "If there is a dispute over whether a page meets the criteria, the issue is typically taken to deletion discussions", but Vanamonde93 edit warred over the tag and made a misleading claim on edit summary that Raymond is "an involved editor", regardless of the fact that Raymond never edited the article before. This battleground mentality doesn't end here. After restoring the tag in place of bringing it to Afd, Vanamonde93 made no attempt to fix the content issue and made no input on talk page either, but went to report an admin without notifying Raymond by using the Echo notification system or by posting a message.
Given that neither has clean hands, I think both Raymond and Vanamonde should be warned. Capitals00 (talk) 05:24, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Comment by Kautilya3
I support NeilN's sanction. Raymond3023 has been walking on the edge for a long time (see Ms Sarah Welch's input), and it was only a matter of time before he got caught out. I also think Raymond is capable of reform, and three months will likely do it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 06:28, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Raymond3023
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- @NeilN: Am I summarizing the reasons for your sanction correctly as follows? 2006 Bhiwandi lynching was (and is now again) nominated for speedy deletion. Raymond3023, in their only substantial edit to the article, removed the speedy deletion template with the reason "per WP:BANREVERT, subject meets WP:LASTING". You took the view that, in doing so, Raymond3023 took responsibility for the article's contents, including the first two references, which do not back up the assertions in the first two sentences of the article, namely, that "a Muslim mob" burned two Indian policemen alive. When challenged by you about this, Raymond3023 said that they were mainly concerned with notability and that "next time I would be more cautious when contesting G5". On the basis of these facts, you topic-banned Raymond3023 for three months "for misrepresenting what sources say and a repeated failure to understand this issue." Is this about it? Sandstein 17:23, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, Vanamonde93, I missed the part where Raymond3023 wrote that they were "taking the responsibility of the article". Under these circumstances, I think NeilN was correct to characterize this behavior as improper, namely, adding content not verifiable by reliable sources relating to a highly sensitive topic, i.e., murder and religious violence. Whether it deserved a sanction for misconduct, and specifically this sanction, is less clear to me. Verifiability issues are primarily content issues, and arbitration does not address these. Egregious misregard for core content policies such as WP:V does rise to the level of misconduct, but I don't think that's what we have here. While it is true that Raymond3023 does seem to have some competence problems, the one edit at issue here did not directly add the problematic content, but only assumed responsibility for the article as a whole. They also had no previous relevant sanctions. Under these circumstances, I'd probably have left it at a stern warning and not directly imposed a topic ban. The topic ban is more defensible if one takes the very pragmatic view that all less than completely competent and experienced editors should be removed from DS topic areas, but that's not been our practice so far, and would be very difficult to implement.
Nonetheless, I'm aware that this is only a different admin's perspective on the issue, and not necessarily a more objective one than NeilN's, who as enforcing admin has wide latitude to impose discretionary sanctions. Such sanctions should only be overturned if the applicable rules and procedures were clearly violated, and not merely because of a different assessment of the situation. This case seems to me to be on the border between the two situations, and I would therefore welcome other views on the matter. Sandstein 17:46, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, Vanamonde93, I missed the part where Raymond3023 wrote that they were "taking the responsibility of the article". Under these circumstances, I think NeilN was correct to characterize this behavior as improper, namely, adding content not verifiable by reliable sources relating to a highly sensitive topic, i.e., murder and religious violence. Whether it deserved a sanction for misconduct, and specifically this sanction, is less clear to me. Verifiability issues are primarily content issues, and arbitration does not address these. Egregious misregard for core content policies such as WP:V does rise to the level of misconduct, but I don't think that's what we have here. While it is true that Raymond3023 does seem to have some competence problems, the one edit at issue here did not directly add the problematic content, but only assumed responsibility for the article as a whole. They also had no previous relevant sanctions. Under these circumstances, I'd probably have left it at a stern warning and not directly imposed a topic ban. The topic ban is more defensible if one takes the very pragmatic view that all less than completely competent and experienced editors should be removed from DS topic areas, but that's not been our practice so far, and would be very difficult to implement.
- The article content was problematic and the user took a long time to get the point of that. This seems within process and admin discretion to me and I see no formal grounds to overturn it. However, it's not what I would have done; if it was me in that situation, once the user has admitted there is a problem and committed to fixing it, I'd let it go with a warning and keep an eye on them. @NeilN: Would you consider commuting this to a warning off your own bat? GoldenRing (talk) 17:49, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- @NeilN: it's not particularly impressive but it's also not a major game-changer in my view. However, my question was really whether you would consider changing your mind; if you're confident that the sanction was appropriate, I see no grounds here for us to overturn it and it should stay in place. GoldenRing (talk) 09:19, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Having reviewed this case, NeilN applied appropriate due diligence, and the 3-month topic ban is well within administrative discretion for the issues at hand. I don't see any grounds for granting the appeal or for overturning or commuting the topic ban. If anything, I'm concerned that we'll be back here in 3 months, since Raymond2023 doesn't seem to understand why his actions were problematic. MastCell 20:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek
No action. Volunteer Marek is reminded not to make personal attacks. GoldenRing (talk) 09:19, 10 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Volunteer Marek
After I gave VM a warning, User:El_C defended VM; at my user talk, El_C basically argued that, "sticking an edit in the middle of his series does not magically turn his remaining series into an extra revert. If the changes could have been made in a single edit, they count as a single revert." In reply to El_C, I said that I should not have to wait for VM to revert my intervening edit, and that El_C was making it sound like I deliberately stuck in that intervening edit. I didn't, you can see that it's an extensive edit that took me a while to study and put together, and I would have made more edits but when I realized VM was editing the article in this way I withdrew from editing the article to avoid further conflict. Plus El_C is inventing a new rule that is contrary to the simple 1RR rule: "A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert." Incidentally, I didn't have to discuss this with VM at his user talk after giving an initial warning, but did because I wanted to avoid AE, and all I got from VM was personal attacks like this.
@User:GoldenRing, you don't think VM was reverting my edits? And doing so nonconsecutively? Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:45, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Note: I left this message for User:El_C. Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:01, 9 January 2018 (UTC) @User:PeterTheFourth, Volunteer Marek reverted me so many times today that it would take me too long to list all of the individual reverts unless I really have to. So I’ll just give you two very specific examples: This edit by VM at 06:42 on 9 January deleted new material that I previously added at 07:48 on 7 January. Following that revert by VM, I made this edit at 6:44 on 9 January unaware VM had made any edits. Then, VM reverted me again many more times, including this edit at 06:54 on 9 January which reverted edits I had made at 05:39 on 9 January and 06:02 on 9 January and 06:35 on 9 January. All of these reverts by VM were total nonsense, by the way, but that’s another story. Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
@User:Black Kite, all of my article edits at every article I’ve ever edited have been consecutive with respect to each other. Every editor at Misplaced Pages can say the exact same thing. But apparently VM is the only one who can actually get away with it. The specific reverts that I described above for PeterTheFourth edited entirely different paragraphs of the BLP. I grow weary. Anythingyouwant (talk) Discussion concerning Volunteer MarekStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Volunteer MarekUser:GoldenRing - what is my response you're referring to? The stuff on my talk page? Sorry buddy, if somebody comes to my talk with this kind of bad faithed nonsense, I am free to respond to it appropriately. And there was no personal attacks there (and no, saying "bullshit" is not a personal attack).Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:20, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Sigh. It has already been explained to Anythingyouwant by an uninvolved administrator, User:El C, that this was NOT a 1RR violation. Repeatedly: , (also points out that Anythingyouwant's action could be seen as a bad faith attempt to WP:GAME 1RR), (also a warning about Anythingyouwant trying to reinstate his edits in violation of DS), . Anythingyouwant has chosen not to heed this advice and decided to file this AE report anyway - which is direct evidence of their cynical, bad faithed, WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing in this topic area. WP:BOOMERANG please. You can read the discussion on my and Anything's talk page. Here is the jist again. From Jan 5, 16:345, until Jan 9, 6:35 Anythingyouwant made a series of unilateral and undiscussed edits to the Jeff Sessions article (despite being fully aware of the contentious nature of the topic and the fact the article was under DS - he didn't bring anything up on talk). A little while later I looked over these edits and many of them appeared to be the standard POV stuff. At this point I could've just reverted back to the original version by User:MelanieN , since there was a lot of problematic stuff in there. But rather, following the suggestions at I decided to do Anythingyouwant the courtesy of going through each of their edits one by one, undo the bad, but keep the good. Well, shit, this is what I get for trying to do the right thing. As I was making these edits, at some point, Anythingyouwant managed to jump in and make an edit - which I did not notice until he showed up on my talk page - in between two of mine. Specifically: I made an edit at 6:43 and a follow up edit, less than a second later, at 6:44. Anythingyouwant managed to make his edit split seconds before mine, at 6:44 . I did not get an edit-conflict notice (it was a different part of the text). Like I said, I didn't even notice this and kept going. All of my edits spanned the time 6:40 to 7:15. Let me also stress that I did NOT subsequently revert that particular edit of his. Then Anythingyouwant showed up on my talk page claiming I violated 1RR and demanding I self revert. Hey! This reminds me. User:GoldenRing, didn't you JUST call something like this a "threat", quite recently? Do I need to dig the diff up where you accuse me of making "threats" because I notified somebody on their talk about a DS violation? Anyway, Anythingyouwant claimed that I made, quote, " two distinct groups of reverts". Apparently the edits made between 6:40-6:43 where "one distinct group" and the edits made "6:44-6:52" were a "second distinct group". Now, at this point, it's pretty obvious that this is just some cynical WP:GAMEing and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Anyone who tries to argue that two edits made SECONDS APART, which were part of one continuous whole are "two distinct groups" is not playing it kosher. So yeah, I said that to Anythingyouwant. And as El_C pointed out, this very much looks like Anythingyouwant PURPOSEFULLY jumped into the middle of my editing (and again, I was doing him a courtesy) to try and turn a series of continous edits into "two reverts". Which itself is bad faithed and disruptive. Couple other things. Above, Anythingyouwant uses the language "before VM jumped in". This is rhetorically dishonest. I waited till he was done with his edits to make mine. He jumped in the middle of mine. He adopted this "jumped in" terminology only after I used the phrase in regard to his action. He's trying to turn the tables and pretend that I did what he was actually guilty of. Anythingyouwant claims he didn't even know I was editing the article when he made his edit at 6:44. Seeing as how there were three intervening edits in between, that at least five minutes had passed, and how quickly he came running to my talk page, this is quite unlikely. One last thing. Here is the irony. If you go by Anythingyouwant's logic then this edit and this edit constitute a 1RR violation. This has also been pointed out to him . Strangely, he insists that that wasn't a 1RR violation even though it's two reverts made in a non-continous fashion. This illustrates the bad faith behind this report. (The difference of course is that my edits were made seconds apart and were part of a continous whole with only Anythingyouwant's single sneaky edit in between, whereas in between Anything's two reverts there were three intervening edits and 9 minutes had passed. Also, I'm not actually reporting him for 1RR). Like I said, this is a pretty clear illustration of the bad faith and battleground mentality that Anythingyouwant has brought to this topic area for some time now, and it is the same reason he was banned from the topic area previously.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:48, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by PeterTheFourthWould you please link to the individual edits that were reverts? It's hard to see which by looking at these large series of edits. PeterTheFourth (talk) 09:13, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Statement by El_CRegarding the 1RR, I already closed this as No violation. VM could have made the reverts in a single edit, he just chose to do it piecemeal. It's that simple. El_C 09:26, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by Sir JosephSo striking comments is enough to not get a block or sanction? You guys should look up to the MONGO close, where if my memory serves, MONGO got a block for a personal attack, even though he struck it out. But regardless, VM should be sanctioned. As someone who is often the complainant in AE actions, he is readily aware of the rules and should know that his edits are actionable. Sir Joseph 15:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by GPRamirez5There is a clear pattern with User:Volunteer Marek going on edit blitzkriegs, which he claims are anti-POV-pushing, without actually checking the sources. Here he deletes on the basis that the source doesn't say "confirmed", but The Hill source, for one, says the FBI "backed up" the Justice Department's claim.-GPRamirez5 (talk) 17:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Marek is particularly shameless to evoke WP:GAMING. His MO is to claim a source is "misrepresented" unless it uses exactly the same language as the text. In fact Editing Policy states: You should read the source, understand it, and then express what it says in your own words. --which is exactly what User:Anythingyouwant did in the example above, and other edits I saw. And note that in most cases Marek didn't simply reword information, he deleted it. That is disruptive, POV editing pure and simple.-GPRamirez5 (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICOThis is messed up. Anything went to Marek with what looked like a simple 1RR concern. That's what we all do in these DS articles. In almost all cases there's a swift resolution without an AE report -- yes AE Admins, you see only a small sample of the problems that arise on these articles. So in this case, Marek walks Anything through the issue -- which nobody claims did any damage to anything -- and then uninvolved Admin @El C: helps out with an impartial review that should have settled the issue for anyone who cared about it. Then Anything immediately comes here to get what result? I can't see any purpose other than to punish Marek and just maybe to disable or intimidate a prolific editor so that Anything can take a break from his 24/7 tweaking of these politics articles. The only explanation I can see is that Anything is looking for punishment. Editors who are going against the mainstream narrative on article content end being overruled by consensus time and again. That's why they file a disportionate number of the AE complaints we see here. Some of them feel compelled to use every tool at their disposal, including gaming the volunteer Admins at AE, to push minority or fringe POVs into articles. I've said repeatedly in the past that in my opinion Anything's TBAN on topics related to Abortion should be extended to cover American Politics as well. It's well documented that many people who support the Trump Administration, among the American public and the US Congress, are doing so as a strategy to promote judicial appointments that will enable a Pro-life agenda on women's health. It is entirely within the spirit of an abortion-related TBAN broadly construed to extend that TBAN to American Politics after months of disruptive editing by Anythingyouwant in the related area. I don't think you AE Admins should just be relieved to close this and let it go. I ask you to consider a TBAN for Anythingyouwant. SPECIFICO talk 19:25, 9 January 2018 (UTC) Result concerning Volunteer Marek
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Anmolbhat
Closed with no action. Anmolbhat self-corrected some unnecessary rudeness, so no sanction is required. I would note that the "civility restriction" is difficult to enforce short of a personal attack, as no two groups of people agree on what does and doesn't breach civility standards. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:52, 12 January 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Anmolbhat
Besides casting aspersions in spite of the good faith sanction on all Kashmir conflict related topics, not only has Anmolbhat broken them in full awareness of his violations, but he even has a history of being blocked for introducing copyright violations despite being warned several times for their copyright violations. I don't think this user is willing to learn or abide by our policies and since their editing is generally tendentious and unconstructive they should be blocked. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning AnmolbhatStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AnmolbhatI am not sure if there are such restrictions. Behavior of JosephusOfJerusalem is too concerning. He is edit warring on Kashmiris, showing his incompetence in judging sources at Talk:Kashmiris#Kautilya3's new edits, and Talk:Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus where he is also denying the responsibility of Hizbul. Also that he has to cite outdated diffs as justification for this report. As far as my block is concerned after my block on Copyright Violation I haven't violated any policy but JosephusOfJerusalem can show if I have. On talk page, he was asked about it, but he couldn't backup his claim, but it seems that he prefers to stand by his misleading statement.Anmolbhat (talk) 07:57, 11 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by D4iNa4Filer should consider reading WP:DR. It details "what to do when you have a dispute with another editor". Just don't expect others to block your critic over the things that happened more than half a year ago. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:42, 11 January 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Anmolbhat
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Anmolbhat
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- 05:24, 13 January 2018 Anmolbhat has made an accusation of meatpuppetry (″ Looks like a botched attempt of meat puppetry″) against another user on a page which is under Regents park's good faith sanction whereby any suggestion that another editor is not acting in good faith will lead to an immediate block.
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This user has not just been blocked but had received repeated warnings about his incorrect behavior but still he does not show any sign of improvement.1234 and has also been warned many times to stop their unconstructive editing.56 7 The user JosephusOfJerusalem also filed a complaint against Anmolbhat for breaking the civility restriction but the closing of that complaint has only further emboldened this user to break ARBIPA sanctions even more. You would have expected he would learn but he is still doing it. And if unsubstantiated accusations of meat puppetry is not a personal attack (WP:NPA#WHATIS) I do not know what is.
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Result concerning Anmolbhat
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