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Title

Why should we object to describing this event as a "massacre"? We don't reject this term out of hand, there must be dozens of articles in the Category:Massacres and its sub-categories. PatGallacher (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

IDF was preventing violent potential illegal immigrants from crossing into Israel. At least 2 of those who were killed were known to Israel as HAMAS operatives. Fighting terrorism is not the same as "massacre". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.121.228.133 (talk) 18:42, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Crap. The vast majority of those shot dead were killed by trained snipers lying on banks of sand and thus out of range beyond the 300 metre no go zone, and couldn't be even hit by stones, which can be slung by Israeli manual lore on conflict no more than 70 yards. In no civilized country in the world do you gun down protestors or even rioters who are unarmed. It's murder, and when the number exceeds 6, it is a massacre, as La Repubblica and the Vatican's Avvenire, reported when the news broke. 30,000 people showed zero interest in entering Israel. Half of the employed minority are in Hamas, it is the only way to get bread on the table. That doesn't make them operatives. This had fuck all to do with terrorism, since Haaretz and other sources have articles before the event which paint the IDF apocalyptic scenario of an 'existential threat' requiring massive force in the before this event took place, and put in place extreme measures on that paranoid hypothesis.

See for example:

Yaniv Kubovich,Josh Breiner Israeli Army Readies for Hamas March Along Gaza Border on Friday Haaretz 27 March 2018

Peter Lerner, This Friday, Israel’s Tear Gas and tanks Will Confront Palestinian Marchers. But Brute Force Can’0t Be Israel’s Only Answer, Haaretz 25 March 2018

I .e. this was an announced public event, not some secretive plot by Hamas, which did not, by the way, originally organize the event. How you bus 30,000 people with Gaza's buses(!!) to an area about a couple of kilometres from Gaza City, within easy walking distance (I've walked it myself) is a mystery, i.e. pure hysterical IDF agitprop.

I had written quite a few notes on this. But I've pulled a muscle in my back, coughing caused some latent wrench in my back caused by falling 8 feet out of a tree the other day, so I won't be able to edit for a few days. But the temptation to prioritize the Hamas-terrorist Pallywood motive should be resisted - that is simply the usual mendacious spin by the murderers who planned this lesson. The background consisted in a long deliberated move to use the standard Land Day protests as a marker for 5 weeks of pacific events, which aimed, not as such stupid line in our text says, to genetly 'evict' Israelis from their homes c- that is about as absurd as you get (check the source) - but to bring the world's negligent attention to the fact that 64 percent of youth are unemployed, 97% of Gaza's water is undrinkable, 70% go to bed feeling hungry, and the poverty line includes 65% or so of all families there, etc.etc. one snippet of my draft runs:

Conditions in the Gaza prior to the event

According to a January report by Euro-Mediterranean Human Right Monitor, cited by Ghanam and therefore usable and written on the occasion of the 12th year of the Israeli blockade of Gaza, the economy was in a state of collapse with 44% of the population unemployed (62% of the youths),65% of families were sunk in poverty, with 72% unable to secure sufficient food, while 97% of Gaza’s water was not fit for human consumpotion.’

References

1. Cite error: The named reference Ghannam was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. http://euromedmonitor.org/en/gaza/ Gaza -12 Years of Blockade <references></references>Euro-Mediterranean Human Right Monitor January 2018

So I suggest more work on the background figures, and look at B'tselem 's page as well.Nishidani (talk) 18:53, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

And whose fault is that Gaza is in such a state of deprivation? After all, they receive billions from the world. Maybe because Hamas prefers to build cross-border tunnels and weapons instead of civilian infraestructure? This is what your "peaceful" protest was all about: a cynical camouflage for additional terrorist attacks (not to mention the usual propaganda and the attacker playing the victim card after sending their human shields to die).--יניב הורון (talk) 20:07, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Way to keep your POV in check יניב הורון. And backing it up with an Israeli military and political cite--because they will somehow be totally unbiased on this issue. Pure genius.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:30, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Heh, I recall when Debkafile knew everything about Saddams WMD! LOL! (Needless to say: absolutely none of it true..) Huldra (talk) 20:40, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Well, Debka is no less biased than the so-called "Euro-Mediterranean Human Right Monitor", but much more reliable and serious. Everything published by Debka is fully investigated, and many times they had no problem criticizing Israel's military and intelligence establishment. Nevertheless, I'm sure we can find reliable secondary sources (such as normal newspapers) to support at least some of their findings.--יניב הורון (talk) 20:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Whose fault is it that you spout nonsense, copied and pasted from the puerile hasbara outlet for retirees from the IDF and Shin Bet, the Debka file? US aid to Israel in the last financial year was $3.1 billion: their aid to Palestinians has averaged a 7th of that over the last decade, with most going to the PA quisling government in the West Bank. Demographically the Israeli and Palestinian populations are on a par, so the elephantine wastrel sponger in the room is not the government of the Gaza Strip. Israel's beneficiaries of this misappropriation of US taxpayer funds ought to exercise some care in playing the Palestinian freeloader meme before audiences that acrually study the facts. Nishidani (talk) 20:50, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I was talking about aid given to Gaza by the world, not just the US. But whatever, this is WP:NOTAFORUM. I'm not interested in seeing all the usual butthurt in the comments after another staged "humanitarian" provocation.--יניב הורון (talk) 21:51, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Comment – calling this a massacre of of course nonsense, and there is no need to scrape the barrel for sources calling it one (as far as I can tell, even the state-sponsored sources here don't call it a massacre). It is not just a non-neutral term, but it doesn't even describe the events. It seems like a good idea to wait for the events to end in order to get some perspective, but no doubt in the end we will use the most neutral and descriptive title. —Ynhockey 20:51, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Comment Ynhockey has now moved the article to a new title, (in the middle of a discussion) and, AFAIK, used his admin powers to mv the protections too, so that none other than other admins can move it again. User:Ynhockey: using your admin powers in an issue where you are highly involved is not a good thing, me thinks? Huldra (talk) 21:09, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

If anything, I actually fixed a botched move made by other editors, which seemed to create a (technical) disconnect between the article and its talk page.

In any case, it doesn't look like anyone here is actually arguing about policy, it's more of a philosophical discussion about whether it's a massacre or not. I stated my opinion on that issue above (with regards to the discussion), but it's only somewhat relevant to the actual issue of naming the article, which has to be in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy. There is a policy to address precisely this issue, at WP:POVNAMING, and it's so clear when examining this specific article, that there's really no room for interpretation.

Therefore, while it was not my intention to prevent other users from moving the article (technically you still can, in a number of ways), maybe it's actually better because it might make everyone calm down and read the policy. In any case, feel free to open a move request if you have a policy-based argument on why this page should be moved. There are a number of back-and-forth moves in the last 24 hours which is really unhelpful.

—Ynhockey 21:38, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Ynhockey, no comment on the title as of yet, but how does anyone with a sane mind believe you can be unbiased in this area?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:43, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

TheGracefulSlick: I don't think anyone expects anyone else to be unbiased. There is however a policy about loaded terms on Misplaced Pages, and it's very clear about loaded words in article titles. —Ynhockey 21:47, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

No, Ynhockey, I actually do expect others to be unbiased, just as I expect myself. If an editor cannot do that, they shouldn't be editing in the field.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:51, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

And please fill in your references . Thank you!TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:53, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

If the title was so loaded as User:Ynhockey imply, then surely some admin who was not WP:INVOLVED could have moved it. Ok, if Ynhockey doesn't undo his move, I will report this to WP:AN or WP:AN/I, Huldra (talk) 21:55, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

As I've noted on Ynhockey's talk page in response to your comment there, Ynhockey does not appear to have used any admin powers to move the page. Number 57 22:03, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Wrong. At 20:46, 31 March 2018 he deleted 2018 Land Day incidents with the edit notice: (G6: Deleted to make way for move). At 20:52, 31 March 2018 he deleted Talk:2018 Land Day incidents with edit notice: (G6: Deleted to make way for move) Huldra (talk) 22:09, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Not wrong. That's what it shows in your log when you move pages over a redirect. You have the same in your own log despite the fact you have no admin powers.

21:37, 19 December 2017 Huldra (talk | contribs | block) deleted redirect Talk:Huj, Gaza by overwriting (G6: Deleted to make way for move)

21:37, 19 December 2017 Huldra (talk | contribs | block) deleted redirect Huj, Gaza by overwriting (G6: Deleted to make way for move)

It's a shame you've continued with this claim despite me trying to point you to your own log earlier. Number 57 22:13, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Ynhockey's move was improper because he has a conflict of interest, and one can't figure out if he is actually neutral: since he is both an Israeli and an admin he shouldn't allow for this kind of doubt by undertaking controversial changes in this area while wearing his adminship. His reasoning is dead wrong: we don't call armies, police or whatever shooting significant numbers of unarmed protesters 'incidents' or 'events' or 'protests'. The title must acknowledge people were killed, and we have tons of stuff like Sharpeville Massacre and Kent State Shootings that acknowledge that you don't adopt euphemisms when mass killings are carried out by government order or otherwise. In this case, Israel admits it ordered the army to shoot unarmed people en masse. I know this is just normal routine stuff for many who accept Israel's right to be uniquely exempt from standard norms or judgements (that is what Zionism is all about), but globally, mass executions are not 'incidents': the army in on record as boasting it could account for every bullet and every person, even women and children, hit by live fire. Nishidani (talk) 22:33, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

He was reverting a move that could be argued to be controversial. The bits about him having a conflict of interest because he's Israeli is not worthy of Misplaced Pages and hope will be retracted. The idea that an editor should be restricted in some way when editing a certain subject because of their nationality is appalling. Number 57 22:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Distortion. An Israeli editor is like anyone else. An Israeli editor with an administrative role is held to higher stanbdards, because admins should avoid any mere suggestion that they are not neutral. This stands out like dog's balls, and applies to all admins of whatever natiolnality when they are dealing with controversies affecting their homeland.Nishidani (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

word choice

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at 2018–2019 Gaza border protests. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Please change 'will overrun the fences' -> 'to overrun the fences' 89.240.143.247 (talk) 20:38, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Done, Huldra (talk) 20:43, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Also just spotted 'March of Return,' should have a full stop, not a comma. 89.240.143.247 (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Done, Huldra (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

...I'm so sorry to be such a PITA (ty for dealing with it) but I've also spotted 'then stomach' -> 'the stomach'. 89.240.143.247 (talk) 22:06, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Chart

Is there a chart that could possibly house the names of the victims? I am not very savvy in that regard, but I believe I have seen such things at various articles on shootings.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Edit Request: Reactions to the incident

Is it possible to add (international) reactions to the incident? Multiple states and other organizations have released statements reacting to what happened. A non-exhaustive list of international reactions and references for them:

• United Nations Secretary General: The UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres has called for an independent inquiry into Friday's violence.

• United States Department of State spokeswoman: We are deeply saddened by loss of life in #Gaza today. We urge those involved to take steps to lower tensions. Int'l community is focused on taking steps that will improve the lives of the Palestinians and is working on a plan for peace. Violence furthers neither of those goals.

• European Union High Representative: Federica Mogherini calls for an investigation and for and end of the closure of Gaza

• Russia Foreign Ministry: Moscow has condemned “the indiscriminate use of force against civilians”

• United Kingdoms UN ambassador: "The UK is appalled by the deaths and injuries suffered during today's events on Gaza's borders. There must be an immediate end to the violence and we call for calm and restraint."

• German Foreign Office: (in german) The German Gov is concerned about the clashes and calls on all parties to stop anything that would escalate the situation. The incident shows how necessary it is both sides to restart negotiations. Tontag (talk) 21:28, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Proposed section: International reactions

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at 2018–2019 Gaza border protests. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Based on the above I've drawn up the following to include in the article:

The ] Secretary-General ] and ] High Representative Federica Mogherini both called for investigations, while UN deputy head of political affairs ] said "Israel must uphold its responsibilities under international human rights and humanitarian law".<ref></ref> A statement from the ] called for both sides to work together to end the violence,<ref></ref> as did the ]'s ambassador to the UN and the ] foreign office.<ref></ref><ref></ref> The ]n Foreign Ministry criticised what it termed "the indiscriminate use of force against civilians" by Israeli forces.<ref></ref>

Please check this over and add it or something similar. I've nominated this article for WP:ITN so it's important it's the best it can be. 89.240.143.247 (talk) 22:36, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Remove list of the dead

The list is unreferenced. Either orange tag the section or better yet, remove it.

--LaserLegs (talk) 22:37, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

WP:NOTMEMORIAL seems to apply. 89.240.143.247 (talk) 22:38, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

It's questionable notability, and without refs it'll never get on ITN. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:39, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

In the IP area, all articles dealing with considerable numbers of Israeli/Jewish victims of violence list the people, their names and ages. Palestinians get the same treatment, and the list is required because once btselem has done its legwork we will have material on the eyewitness testimonies re each person killed, which naturally are meat and meet for this article. Nishidani (talk) 22:45, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

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