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Revision as of 20:57, 26 October 2006

Move to Tourism apartheid in Cuba

Can we move this back to Tourism apartheid in Cuba pronto, please. The above title is misleading in the extreme.--Zleitzen 19:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Briangotts wrote "moved Tourism apartheid in Cuba to Allegations of Cuban apartheid: Move without discussion was totally uncalled for; these are indeed allegations, to call it "apartheid" without qualification is to render the term meaningless."

Hi Brian, the discussion prior to the article creation was with respect to the title "Tourism apartheid in Cuba" or "Tourist apartheid in Cuba" -- see ]. It was you, in my opinion, that arbitrarily picked a new title and imposed it without discussion, not myself. So far, it is just you who feel that it should be called "Allegations of Cuban apartheid" - it was not agreed to by Jayjg (who didn't comment at all), Homey (who seemed to support the new article and didn't comment on the name), myself (who suggested the name "Tourism apartheid in Cuba), and Zleitzen (who makes him opinion clear above.)

It is important to say what type of apartheid it is in the title since normally one assumes apartheid has to do with race, when in fact, in the case of Cuba, it is related to tourist vs. non-tourist divide. Also the whole article is oriented around the term "tourist apartheid" -- you'll notice this if you read through the article. --Ben Houston 19:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. Nevertheless, Leifern expressed a concern, which I share, that the use of the term apartheid is watered down to the point of meaninglessness, and moreover, the use of "apartheid" to describe situations like the Cuban one is so controversial that it should not be approached lightly. I would agree to a title along the lines of "Allegations of tourism apartheid in Cuba" or "Alleged tourism apartheid in Cuba". Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, whatever the title is, it needs to be neutral. Just stating that Cuba practices apartheid is not neutral, one can only allege it. Jayjg 20:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The above is an empty statement. Do all scientific entries need now to be prefixed with the term "Theory of "? But I understand this is part of a meta-argument thus I'll let it go. Hopefully, eventually, impartial individuals will come in and fix it. --Ben Houston 20:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Here I am Ben. What do you need me to fix? :-) Jayjg 20:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

On a different subject matter: Can you speedy delete Allegations of Tourist apartheid in Cuban and Allegations of tourist apartheid in Cuban? --Ben Houston 20:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. See how helpful impartial individuals can be? By the way, regarding your question Do all scientific entries need now to be prefixed with the term "Theory of "?, please see Theory of relativity, Theory of everything, Theory of computation, Theory of mind, Theory of descriptions, Theory of computation, Theory of forms, etc. Jayjg 20:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Heh -- feel like I'm back on the debate team. More than 90% of scientific theories in Misplaced Pages don't have that prefix. Those that do, tend to use those names, in part for the purposes of disambiguation, since the main term of those listed above are already in common usage for a different concept or set of concepts -- see: relativity, everything, computation, mind, descriptions, forms. --Ben Houston 20:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

As long as it has "Tourist apartheid in Cuba" rather than plain "apartheid in Cuba" I'm fine whether it is "allegations" or not. --Zleitzen 20:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair and Balanced

Please also include a list of all private clubs, resorts, buildings, enclaves, estates, divisions, developments, communities and private wealth in general (not to mention the mass drug & gun, etc. money-laundering and trafficking) going on -- not only in the Caribbean, but in every imperialist country -- where this non-NPOV propaganda tripe originates from.

I am long past being amazed with the depths of hypocrisy the vicious defenders of privilege will stoop to.

Maybe when I get around to it, I'll flag this crap.

Pazouzou 01:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll try and explain. It's to do with the economy of Cuba. Cuba needed to exploit tourism after the Soviet collapse - and thus consciously created a dual economy based on the peso and the dollar. This created a rapid economic divide where those in the lucrative service industry, dealing in dollars were able to jump way ahead of industrial and agricultural workers who could only buy in pesos. Anyone who knows Cuba during this period would acknowledge the difference between the impoverished peso stores and the well-stocked dollar stores. Where this article may need work is the changes since 2004 when the dollar was removed from circulation. The "apartheid" or two tier situation after the special period was acknowledged by Cubans, tourists, the Cuban government and socialists from around the world as a unique phenomenon due to economic circumstances inadvertantly clashing with Cuba's command economy.--Zleitzen 02:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is a two-tier economy. But anybody - Cuban or foreign - who has money can shop in the "dollar stores". In fact most of the people shopping in most of the dollar stores are Cubans. How is that "apartheid" ? -- Beardo 01:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The term apartheid in this case is indeed strong. But it isn't an invention of wikipedia, it's there in the sources provided. One thing that concerns me is that this was a major concern at the turn of the milleneum - when the tourist boom really took hold. A lot of the talk on this has died down now abroad, perhaps as a result of economic growth, So is this still relevant? --Zleitzen 02:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition, regarding your comments, the "defenders of privilege" as you put it, are in this case the Cuban authorities. Creating a climate for increased international private investment by advertising the benefits of Cuba's control over the economy and workforce. Castro himself has commented on this as a necessity, whilst simultaneously enshrining the permanence of the Marxist-Leninist constitution in 2002. Accusations of "The depths of hypocrisy" can be applied many ways, not least in the direction of the Cuban government.--Zleitzen 15:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I have flagged this article with NPOV. Apart from the "allegations" right at the beginning, the rest serves up one sides view. Quoting the US government as a source - and I wonder how many others are US government funded. -- Beardo 01:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh my gosh. You really all need to get over this.

If you think the article is biased, go ahead and edit in your counterpoints and allow the reader to decide. Honestly, you're complaining about it here isn't helping anyone. The original poster was sharing information that as far as I can tell is supported by several credible sources, and you're bickering over its neutrality? What, should none of the information be shown then?

I have a better idea. Why don't you show everyone just how wrong the provided information is by providing your OWN information that contradicts it. Then, the reader, who is undoubtedly smart enough to form his own opinion (this is, after all, an encylopedia... not an editorial where you're attempting to convince me of anything) can proceed to do so without your further interference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.2.93.222 (talk • contribs) 03:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Wealth apartheid ?

Much of what is referred to as "tourist apartheid" is actually a wealth apartheid - those with money can get things that those without money can't. Whilst that goes against Cuba's socialist principles, what country does that not apply to ? And, in fact, isn't that really what capitalism is all about ? In particular, I am still waiting for some one to show me a Cuban restaurant that refuses entry to a Cuban with money. Similarly, I am sure that most Britons could not go to the finest restaurants in London - but few (apart from the most left-wing) scream about the injustice. -- Beardo 00:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you had any thoughts for how you would change the page, so your tag could be removed Beardo?--Zleitzen 08:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV tag

Someone removed the NPOV tag without attempting to deal with the problem. I have restored. The article does not attempt to put the Cuban government position, and instead is content to parrot US government propaganda. It does not distinguish between those restrictions which are based solely on nationality and those (such as access to the best restaurants) which are merely based on wealth. Probably it also should compare the situation in other Caribbean tourist destinations.

Personally, I suspect that this article is impossible to put NPOV. Perhaps it should be AfD instead ? -- Beardo 07:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The article does not quote the U.S. government - the people who came up with this designation were Cubans themselves. If you have other sources which comment on tourist apartheid feel free to add them. Tags aren't forever; find other sources on tourist apartheid if you want, but don't insert perma-tags based on conspiracy theories. Jayjg 07:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It was the responsibility of the authors of the article to write NPOV - they failed. I spotted the problem. The tag should remain until the problem is fixed surely ? Isn't that what WP:NPOV is all about ?

On US government sources - http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2886.htm - United States Department of State, Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs, December 2005; http://www.usaid.gov/press/spe_test/speeches/2002/sp021017.html Remarks by Adolfo A. Franco, Assistant Administrator for Latin America and the Caribbean, USAID - for example.

You claim that Cubans originated the term. The only articles quoting Cubans are from post-2000 - long after the term was widely used in English-language press. Any support for that "originated" claim. The examples presented could just as easily be Cubans using back a term they have heard from other foreigners.

One of the problems of writing NPOV about Cuba is that the Cuban government does not always respond to criticism. But that does not excuse putting just one POV. You have to work harder.

You keep saying "conspiracy theories" - where do I refer to a conspiracy ? I suspect this is a classic example of systematic bias - the US government sources are often in English, the Cuban government (if any) in Spanish. -- Beardo 17:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

In your view they have failed; but NPOV simply consists of reproducing what reliable sources have to say about a matter. The article on Apartheid in South Africa is not filled with defenses of the practice from the (then) South African government. You've mentioned only 3 "U.S. government sources" out of 30 that are used in the article, and none of the 3 you mentioned are quoted. You also claim that the term was widely-used in English before Cubans started using it; what is your evidence for that claim? As for support for the claim that it was originated in Cuba, why don't you read the sources provided? It came from a paper presented by Dr. María Dolores Espino at the Proceedings of the Annual Meetings of the Association for the Study of the Cuban Economy. In addition, if you don't have any sources that contradict the views presented here, then by definition the article represents the mainstream view, which is exactly what NPOV demands - find sources contradicting this if you can. Finally, regarding "conspiracy theories", you objected to the article because you claimed it was "Quoting the US government as a source" and then stated "I wonder how many others are US government funded." The latter, of course, is conspiracy thinking, and again, the article does not quote the US government at all. As you still have not brought any evidence that this article fails NPOV, and apparently have not even read much of it, I'm removing the tag again. Jayjg 17:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Have added a couple of responses from Fidel Castro on the issue to represent an opposing view of sorts. but the policies of explicate exclusion from certain amenities were certainly tangible, Beardo, as Castro himself acknowledged. Castro also stated that the policies would stand for as long as they were necessary. Have these policies changed significantly following the removal of the dollar and the easing of economic conditions? Resulting in the more relaxed situation you have observed presently? Such positive subtle changes in Cuba usually go unreported in the mainstream Western media for obvious reasons. When I quizzed a few recent visitors to Cuba they generally downplayed the issue as well which would concur with your analysis. It is just a case of finding a way to express that using sources and staying within policy.--Zleitzen 10:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Whilst doing some maintenence work on the references here, I spotted two references used for uses of term by "others". The first was published online on the far right website "front page magazine", attributed to Agustin Blazquez. Now I don't believe Blazquez is in any way a suitable source for an article. He is an extremist campaigner, this article written by Blazquez and referring to a universally discredited claim of Cuba's links to "bioterrorism" pretty much typifies his output. I also don't know if his entirely spurious assessments of racial divisions in Cuba inform this article (they are found in the reference section rather than the main body of the article). Here is the wording.

However, the humanitarian Glover has never raised his voice on behalf of the Cuban people's human rights, the existence of the shameful tourist apartheid, the disproportionate majority of black Cubans in Castro's dungeons or the absence of black Cubans in key government positions." Blazquez, Agustin. Hollywood's Cuban Connection, The Washington Dispatch, February 4, 2003.

I'd like to remove that reference. --Zleitzen 23:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge to Tourism in Cuba?

Hi. I looked over the article Tourism in Cuba and over this one, and Tourism in Cuba is a one-sentence-long stub. This article, meanwhile, has a title that it appears has generated some complaints about violating NPOV. I was wondering if yall might consider merging this article into the Tourism in Cuba article so as to add content to what ought to be a fully-developed article and to remove the article name issue here. Thanks. The Literate Engineer 16:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with you about the need to merge, however the tourism in Cuba article is still a stub and these allegations would dominate it somewhat, to its detriment. What I'll do, perhaps, is write that Tourism article in full over the next few days and then we can think about merging. How does that sound?--Zleitzen 20:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

That sounds awesome, Zleitzen. The Literate Engineer 20:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, that is what is needed. All that was lacking was someone to volunteer to improve the main tourism article. Well done Z. -- 80.225.170.83 01:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added some material to the Tourism in Cuba article now, and added this article to it. Therefore would anyone have any objections to a full merge and a redirect from this page?--Zleitzen 13:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course I'd object. This article is actually the majority of the Cuban tourism article, and the topics are not the same. This article is not about tourism per se, but about Cuban government practices vis a vis its own population. Jayjg 19:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I also object. Unless we are getting rid of all Allegations of apartheid in X articles, this one should stay. ←Humus sapiens 20:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

In the aftermath of the precedent set on other apartheid articles, it would be POV to not have this title. In any event, the main tourism article seems to be far from a stub at this point, and deals with a different, albeit related, topic. Cheers, Tewfik 20:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)