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Where Did the Blue Army Disappear To?

As someone trying to research the Polish-Bolshevik war of 1920-21, I’ve been trying to figure out what happened to these formations between the time they arrived in Poland, and the start of that conflict.

As far as I can determine, these units disappear from the order of battle in late 1919 or early 1920. The mystery is why? These units, with their air and armored assets, would have been of the most up-to-date, modern (for the time) type. Given the hodge-podge and improvised nature of the rest of the Polish and Red armies, these units would also have been the most powerful units in Eastern Europe as well. I cannot conceive of a good MILITARY reason why these formations would have been broken up, and their power diluted.

Reasons that have been advanced include 1. Having broken their promise not to use the “Blue Army” in offensive operations, the Poles needed to appease the angry Allied Powers. The “Blue Army” needed to disappear, and was broken up for this reason. The veterans of the Army were salted throughout newly raised formations to provide a stiff backbone for unleavened recruits. 2. The Blue Army was formed in France under the authority of Dombrowski, Pilsudski’s rival. Concerned about the political allegiance of these troops, Pilsudski had the army broken up and salted with native Poles, who were likely to be more favorable to the man who had remained in Poland, (Pilsudski), then to the one living out the war in Paris, (Dombrowski.) 3. The majority of American Poles in the Army decided to go home at the end of the Great War. (The US Congress would eventually appropriate funds for ships to bring these troops home.) This, and the impact of influenza at the end of 1919, left so many holes in the roster of these units, it was thought better to distribute the remaining troops into newly forming units.

I would rather this question be given more importance, in the discussion, as well as more detail of the battles and maneuvers the Blue Army participated in.

I must also add my opinion that the emphasis of the first sentence, and devoting a full quarter of the text to “controversies” and pogroms, makes it seem the most important contribution “Blue Army” was suppression of the Jews, not military defense of Poland. While an important question, I don’t think it should be the major emphasis of the article.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ozzaib (talk • contribs) 15:23, 8 November 2013

Soldiers acting on own initiative not in the sources

I have removed the statement in the lead that "individual soldiers acting on their own initiative" carried out these attacks. None of the three cited sources states this, and the Encyclopedia Judaica source, which comes closest, says something different:

Haller's army ("Blue Army"), force of Polish volunteers organized in France during the last year of World War I, responsible for the murder of Jews and anti-Jewish pogroms in Galicia and the Ukraine… Foreign officers and the ties with France kept Haller's forces independent of the official Polish command, a fact exploited by Haller's soldiers (called the "Hallerczycy") for undisciplined and unbridled excesses against Jewish communities in Galicia. Attacks on individual Jews on the streets and highways, murderous pogroms on Jewish settlements, and deliberate provocative acts became commonplace. While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them. In 1920, during the Polish offensive toward Kiev resulting from the Pilsudski-Petlyura alliance, anti-Jewish pogroms occurred in the region.

The source states, "While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them." That information should not be translated to "soldiers acted on their own initiative." -Darouet (talk) 16:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Intro paragraph

165.234.252.11, this intro text clearly creates undue-weigth (lacking proportionality), and pushes a specific POV which is inherently bias. This text highlighting a secondary issue in the intro paragraph and is problematic given the limited scope of this matter. The Morgenthou report stated that during the 3 years of conflict Jewish casualties only amounted to about 200–300 individuals (this was the result of not just the Blue Army of 68,000 soldiers, but all of Polish forces) — this is minuscule given the fact that thousands of Poles, Ukrainians and Russians died. Why is this so prominently highlighted, because in the past the "consensus" was pushed forward by the same two editors, who decided to make this the central point of the article. Just like with referencing campaigns in the intro paragraph, you don't just mention the Polish-Ukrainian war, but skip the Polish-Bolshevik war, so you don't just highlight Jewish casualties, but skip Polish or Ukrainian casualties. --E-960 (talk) 09:19, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

• Pls see Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement.." --E-960 (talk) 09:55, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

This has already been discussed and the consensus was to keep info you don't like, in.Faustian (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

This by no means implies that this results is permanent (critique of a text can always be revisited especially if it well over a couple of years), and its the same two editors who push this "consensus" on the article, looking at the history, it clear that you are the author of almost all of the text critical of the Blue Amry, and it the same editor(s) who jumps in to defend your text when it's challenged. Also, there is no hard rule on this — "reverting" after over a week is not really a revert, I can understand reverting an edit revert after 48 to 72 hours, going past that, the person who thinks that old text is valid should perhaps discuss. Also, this does not change the fact that this is undue weight (it really is), and you are simply defending your work, since in this case you are the author most of the text critical, perhaps it time reconsider the old and bias text. --E-960 (talk) 06:03, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard - Bias POV in article

Faustian, I've opened up a noticeboard discussion here to see if we can get other editors to review the text and assess possible neutrality issues, as it is clear that the topic of anti-Jewish violence covers way too much detail and receives exaggerated prominence. Also, since you are the author of all the critical text towards the Blue Army, which creates undue weight by depth of detail, quantity of text and prominence of placement — pls also review the Misplaced Pages:Neutrality of sources article which clearly highlights a problem in regards to reliable sources may be non-neutral, most of the sources you cite, though reliable, use extremely and bias language, and overstate the phenomenon given that this only relates to 200-300 casualties, in a 3 year conflict, involving 68,000 soldiers, and thousands of Polish and Ukrainian casualties — this is extremely bias. --E-960 (talk) 06:30, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

The Blue Army's atrocities towards Jewish civilians are covered in depth by RSes in a prominent manner - which we should reflect as well.Icewhiz (talk) 08:15, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, 200-300 casualties in 3 years of fighting and 200,000 soldiers, that's insignificant, and only confirms my concerns that some editors just want to stack this article with biased one sided statements. --E-960 (talk) 10:33, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

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