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Revision as of 11:49, 19 November 2006 editThe Way (talk | contribs)977 edits →[]← Previous edit Revision as of 14:06, 19 November 2006 edit undoAlansohn (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers505,060 edits reply re deletionist standardNext edit →
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::::'''Comment''' To reply to the above comment by Alansohn, I don't find Iamunknowns justification meaningless at all and it could be construed as a personal attack... His requirements ''are'' more valid than 'all schools are notable' in the sense that they are actual requirements that can act as guidelines for determining notability while simply saying 'all schools are notable' is not, at least not in the same way. Rather, 'all schools are notable' is a discussion closer; it offers no further justification and makes the whole idea of notability rather worthless. Now, I am actually with you on keeping this particular article, but I agree with Iamunknown in claiming that this whole every high school is notable is a flawed approach that is not in line with most of Misplaced Pages's policies regarding notability standards. --] 11:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC) ::::'''Comment''' To reply to the above comment by Alansohn, I don't find Iamunknowns justification meaningless at all and it could be construed as a personal attack... His requirements ''are'' more valid than 'all schools are notable' in the sense that they are actual requirements that can act as guidelines for determining notability while simply saying 'all schools are notable' is not, at least not in the same way. Rather, 'all schools are notable' is a discussion closer; it offers no further justification and makes the whole idea of notability rather worthless. Now, I am actually with you on keeping this particular article, but I agree with Iamunknown in claiming that this whole every high school is notable is a flawed approach that is not in line with most of Misplaced Pages's policies regarding notability standards. --] 11:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

:::::'''Comment:''' You got me on that one. Okay, let's try this: a so-called standard that only accepts those schools that "influence educational standards for a whole national region" or "attract attention because of a nationally-publicized achievement" is no more valid than a standard that specifies notable schools as those with "more than ten students" or "has been open more than two years." One excludes 99.99999% of all schools, allowing about four or five to slip through, while the other includes almost all schools and excludes a few dozen. They're functional equivalents at exact opposite ends of the spectrum. At least those who claim that "all schools are notable" have the intellectual honesty to proclaim their biases out loud, without hiding behind elitist mumbo-jumbo to hide the fact that what they really advocate is "no schools are notable". The plain fact is that a significant percentage of schools, based on the "multiple non-trivial coverage" standard, are in fact notable by any reasonable definition. It's far less than 100%, but it's certainly far more than the 0.00001% that seems to be advocated by some here. The ] proposal is a reasonable middle ground that is far closer to a rational middle ground than the wacky deletionist ] or the even wackier, even further away from consensus standard proposed proposed here. As a matter of fact ] has not listed any school (other than Columbine) that would meet his criteria. I guess any school that wants an article can always hope for a good, old-fashioned massacre. ] 14:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


*'''Comment''' Systemic bias is simply the idea that a specific system or process is likely to (at least somewhat) consistently produce a specific result. On Misplaced Pages this gets a little morphed and built-on into establishing the idea that the average EN.Wikipedian is a white English speaking male in his teens to late fourties with a christian background and some technical bent, and that anything not directly appealing to that demographic is fodder for deletion. It's inappropriate, insulting and sour grapes. I'd love to hear no more talk of it in this debate. ''']''' 04:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC) *'''Comment''' Systemic bias is simply the idea that a specific system or process is likely to (at least somewhat) consistently produce a specific result. On Misplaced Pages this gets a little morphed and built-on into establishing the idea that the average EN.Wikipedian is a white English speaking male in his teens to late fourties with a christian background and some technical bent, and that anything not directly appealing to that demographic is fodder for deletion. It's inappropriate, insulting and sour grapes. I'd love to hear no more talk of it in this debate. ''']''' 04:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:06, 19 November 2006

Dr.S.HUSSAIN ZAHEER MEMORIAL HIGH SCHOOL

Dr.S.HUSSAIN ZAHEER MEMORIAL HIGH SCHOOL (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Non notable school asserting no encyclopedic content, I don't think there's such thing as "regioncruft" but this articles assertion of "stalwarts like IICT, NGRI, CCMB" is also hopelessly relevant to only the region in which the article is commenting. The style and grammar would require a complete rewrite (with the capslock key levered off the keyboard) and the POV issues if removed would probably result in a 6 word article. Best to just bin it. •Elomis• 03:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete, no verifiable sources, very little on Google, no showing of notability. Agree with Edison below, I don't know why sports have anything to do with anything in the guidelines we have, but the Nobel bit is unique and impressive, so changing to a keep. Seraphimblade 03:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep As irony would have it, I was cleaning away the rubbish as Elomis was listing it. I think we should beware systemic bias. It is probably of interest to people in India. I have also moved the thing. Still digging for sources. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 03:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

*DELETE. EVEN THOUGH THE PROBLEMS DESCRIBED ABOVE HAVE BEEN FIXED, THERE STILL REMAINS THE ISSUE OF VERIFIABILITY. ONLY 13 GHITS, THE ONLY THING VERIFIED IS THAT THE SCHOOL EXISTS. (Yes, I was poking fun at the caps lock thing). MER-C 03:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

*Delete per MER-C. -- Kicking222 03:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

    • Keep per Alansohn. Inclusionists could learn some things from Alan, who, instead of just saying "keep all schools", actually went out of his way to assert notability and include reliable sources. Well done, my friend. -- Kicking222 17:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete No evidence of satisfying WP:V and no evidence that the school is notable. JoshuaZ 03:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC) Changing to keep per Alan below. JoshuaZ 15:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment systemic bias?! pfft. I can only assume you are talking about the AfD process often having a common outcome of deleting an article. This isn't systemic bias (or if it is it's easily explainable and satisfactory), if any sensible Misplaced Pages editor submits an article through the AfD process, of course the chances are it will be deleted. Those that are suitable to the outcome of remaining in the Misplaced Pages aren't typically submitted to the process! •Elomis• 04:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
"Systemic bias" as in the fact that nearly every school in the USA has a page about it, yet this one gets picked for AfD even though it seems to be quite talked about over there. yandman 16:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The fact that bad articles have been kept in the past is no reason to keep other bad articles. Bring some of those US or British secondary schools up for AfD, and I will happily (in most cases) vote to delete. Xtifr tälk 22:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

*Delete No claim of notability and no multiple independent sources. Changing vote to Keep Sources were added. Sports competition notices in paper are pretty ordinary for a school, but the reference from a national paper showing three Nobel laureates interacting with the students in the science program is impressive enough to allow inclusion. Edison 05:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Not on Misplaced Pages, they're not! There's ample precedent to prove this claim wrong. Xtifr tälk 22:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Change of comment to Weak Keep I don't think high schools are considered notable by default per Librarianofages, I don't think anything is notable by default and must always assert it's notability clearly (hence my exclusionist philosophy). Further, systemic bias is a weasely excuse to slow consensus forming for deleting articles, notability is to be independantly asserted, not asserted more than other articles per Arkadecki, voting is evil so anyone who was requesting change of votes either in this debate or via my talk page have earned themselves a rap on the knuckles with a ruler (and a smile for their good intentions) schools always have notable people talk at them (Nobel Laureates included) because important people educate tomorrows important people so that's should be taken thinly when asserting notability. BUT all that said, this article now reads quite nicely and seems to have rushed to attain a high quality quickly while on death row, I say an 11th hour repreive is in order. •Elomis• 21:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment If you compare this article with all the other articles about high schools, this one should definitley be kept. This article has sources and asserts nobility. Thats a lot more than I can say about most high school articles on here. Clamster5 22:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • KEEP. NOT ALL SCHOOLS ARE INDEPENDANTLY NOTABLE, BUT THERE IS AMPLE EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THIS SCHOOL IS. RFerreira 05:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep I'm opposed to the inclusionism surrounding high schools; I strongly feel that only a small few are notable enough to justify having articles. However, I have become resigned to the fact that I am in the minority on this matter as virtually all high schools are kept. Now if we are going to continue following this policy, then we need to accept foreign high schools as well. See what kind of doors this opens?  ;) Regardless, this schools article is decently well written and appears that it may be notable anyway. --The Way 09:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Tentative delete. I have similar sentiments as The Way (see immediately above). I left them at the table before I came to the discussion, because I feel they are minority, perhaps even fringe, sentiments, but I now feel compelled to argue with conviction. I do not think that this high school, though it seems like an admirable high school, merits an encyclopædia article. I had Holocaust survivors, Stephen Covey, and wealthy businessmen speak at my high school, but I do not consider that to establish any notability. If a high school were to influence educational standards for a whole national region, or attract attention because of a nationally-publicized achievement (not, "They delivered N number of cans to FEMA") or fiasco (something on the scale of Columbine), then I would certainly consider it notable as to justify encyclopædic inclusion. --Iamunknown 17:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment I have no idea what "systemic bias" is supposed to mean, but I do know how to define notability. Your "tentative" status is demonstrating an extreme version of deletionist elitism as to what schools merit inclusion in Misplaced Pages. At this school, the Nobel laureates lectured as part of an integrated program with the parent Indian Institute of Chemical Technology, unlike the feel-good appearances by those on the lecture circuit at your school, which had no connection whatsoever to the curriculum. By your logic, Columbine High School should not merit an article, as it was merely the site of a massacre. If the incident had happened at a local fast food establishment, would there be an article Columbine McDonald's that talked about the restaurant's menu and staff simply because a whole bunch of people were killed by two members of the wait staff who worked there after school? Or would there be an article for Columbine Post Office about the hours and services offered at that branch, if Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold had graduated high school and gotten jobs as letter carriers before they went berserk? As to your "influence educational standards for a whole national region" criterion, can you name more than a handful of schools (if that many) that would meet this criteria? We have to stop sitting up all night trying to figure out new hoops for school articles to jump through. And when did Misplaced Pages become a US only site that we have to question whether foreign schools should be admitted? Schools, as an integral part of our education system, and as demonstrated by the frequent, in-depth coverage they receive from multiple, independent and reliable sources, are often notable and deserve articles in Misplaced Pages, should they meet these standards. This school is simply one of the better-qualified for Misplaced Pages inclusion. Alansohn 17:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment. Your expeditious label of me as an extreme elitist is merely an underhanded tactic designed to discredit my justification to delete this article. Instead of addressing my points directly, you first prefix an accusation of systematic bias in order to label me as a miscreant and a systematically biased Western bigot. I ask you this: if I were an extremist like you explicitly accuse me of being, why would I be compelled to "tentatively" argue for the deletion of this article? If I intended to systematically delete this and every other article which did not fit in with my bigoted "deletionist " views, would I argue to "tentatively delete" this article? No. If I were in fact an extremist as you accuse of being, I would argue vehemently for the deletion of any article which I did not include in the limited corpus of human knowledge I deemed appropriate to include in any encyclopædia. Because I in fact argue tentatively rather than vehemently for the deletion of this article, I am not a systematically biased "deletionist " Western bigot as you readily accuse me of being. Thus I loathe your accusation that I am prejudiced by an "extreme ... deletionist elitism."
      • Further, nowhere did I argue that because Columbine High School was involved in one of the the largest, worst, most horrific school massacres in United States history that it should be priveleged to have data on its corresponding encyclopædia article including hours, staff, address, contact information, etc. My apparently systematicaly biased "deletionist " Western-bigoted minority/fringe views which you shamelessly accuse me of compel me to disagree with including the aforemtioned data on the grounds of it being unencyclopædic. If the data could be integrated into the article in the form of compelling, even brilliant prose, then including would be fine by me. But I view that including it in a pithy directory format in an easily accessible table right in view at the top of the page is exactly what Misplaced Pages is not.
      • And no, as to my idealistic (but ultimately bigoted and "deletionist ") school inclusion criterion, that the school "influence educational standards for a whole national region," I cannot name more than a handful of schools that would meet this criterion. But, in the spirit of my alleged systematically biased "deletionist " Western-bigoted views, I feel compelled to include only these few schools in any encyclopædia. But I loathe your label; I ardently argue that I am neither systematically biased, nor "deletionist ," nor a Western bigot when I think that this article should not be included in Wikipædia. A Western bigot would argue that this article be deleted but not articles about high schools in the United States deleted; I argue that not only this article but also articles concerning high schools in the United States be deleted, thus I am not a Western bigot. An "extreme ... deletionist " would argue vehemently that this article be deleted; I am not arguing vehemently that this article be deleted, but am arguing tentatively that it be deleted, thus I am not an "extreme ... deletionist ". (I am arguing vehemently that your accusations and abstractions of my arguments are underhanded, accusatory attempts to discredit my arguments in favor of deletion by labeling me as a systematically biased, "deletionist " Western bigot. There is a distinct difference.)
      • I still stand by my criteria for inclusion of high schools in Misplaced Pages. (I must note, however, that I do not pretend to hold them as a final decision. Indeed, I quickly summarized thoughts that had been floating around in my head upon which I have neither ruminated nor refined.) I do not use them as a strict policy, but instead I am informed by them, when I choose to argue to tentatively delete this article. --Iamunknown 01:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
        • Are you claiming that you don't recognize that your argument that only those high schools that "were to influence educational standards for a whole national region" merit inclusion is not elitist? Again, how many schools in the world meet this criteria? It is a justification that is so irrational as to be meaningless. Your "attract attention because of a nationally-publicized achievement" is another standard that is so arbitrarily unrealistic as to be useless. How many schools on this planet meet this criteria? By what existing Misplaced Pages standard have you derived these justifications? Please refer to anything, anywhere that justifies your nonsensical vote. Alansohn 02:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
          • Comment Generally, I would agree with the premise that most high schools (e.g., most on the planet) are not notable. I changed to keep on this particular one, as it has some very unique and special characteristics, and has been verifiably recognized in quite a few third-party sources. However, generally, Local High is not notable, any more then a local Wal-Mart or gas station would be. I would say there should be some additional exceptions, such as historic/event notability (Columbine, for example, or the first high school in a country), exceptional standards or styles of teaching (though if this is related to a "chain" such as Waldorf/Montessori, this should already be covered under the main "X Schools" article and wouldn't establish notability for the school itself), exceptional and historic controversy surrounding the school (of more than just local interest), massive and verifiable influence on teaching standards over a large region or nationwide (not just state/citywide), winning a major national (not local) award and receiving significant press coverage for it, or exceptional and region/nationwide (again, not state/citywide) notability for a program at the school. Seraphimblade 03:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
          • Comment. Please immediately stop accusing me of being "irrational," "," and providing "ludicrous arguments." I noticed that again, instead of arguing based solely on the apparent merit or lack of merit of my arguments, you prefix an accusation of irreparable and nonsensical bias. Why do I have to cite specific "standards"'s for my argument? I argued based on my conviction that only a few high schools are notable enough to be included in an encyclopædia. So what? My extemporaneous criteria are elitist. I know that Wikipædia is not paper; but that should never imply that Wikipædia should include everything of little notability and influence.
          • And why does it matter that my criteria are elitist? Precedent and consensus must start somewhere: an unrecognized and unrespected opinion. Does my argument offend you? Does it frighten you? Why are you so loathe towards my argument such that your reaction is first to alienate my argument, then accuse me of irreparable bias and nonsensical justification? Are you unable to discuss the apparent lack of merits you find in it, so you instead result to name calling? Bingo! That you are accusing me of elitism is again evident of your underhanded attempt to distance me from the mainstream. By attaching a label, you intend to stigmatize and alienate me from the average Wikipædian, based on the virtue that you dislike my opinion. Instead of arguing based on the perceived lack of merit, you attempt to create a divide via an automatic labeling procedure. Please stop.
          • I still stand by my criteria, even if they are "gasp" elitist. I nonetheless consider them a good set of criteria to apply to the inclusion of articles into an encyclopædia. If you want to discuss the merits or lack of merits of my arguments, instead of merely labeling them with divisive, stigmatizing, and alienating labels, please come back and do; otherwise, any further altercation would be superfluous, appalling, and redundant.
          • (Note: Consider the following clause from "wikietiquette". The debate is not a vote; please make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments. You specifically accused me of " nonsensical vote". I thought this was a debate, not a vote. I argued, either meaningfully or nonsensically, based on my conviction. My "vote" was a mere initial text to summarize my argument. Do you just want me to fall into line and vote strong keep, with little supporting argument, like the rest of the people you solicited to "reconsider their vote"? Perhaps you should cite any "existing Misplaced Pages standard" for your actions; that is, if you truly do require that to support any individualised action on Wikipædia.) --Iamunknown 10:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
              • It is not a vote. But the thing you typed where you wrote "weak delete" and tried to explain your justification is so far out of consensus as to be meaningless. Why is your requirement that a school "influence educational standards for a whole national region" or "attract attention because of a nationally-publicized achievement" any more valid than "all schools are notable"? How can you quote an obligation to "make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments", which are solely based on your own personal biases, not on any relevant standard? If you read above, I detail the criteria by which this article passes WP:SCHOOL and would pass any other relevant test for such an institution. And you appeal to what, other than your own personal whim?? How many schools in the world meet your elitist criteria? Please give us an idea so that we can judge if there is any merit to the standards you've concocted. Alansohn 10:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Comment To reply to the above comment by Alansohn, I don't find Iamunknowns justification meaningless at all and it could be construed as a personal attack... His requirements are more valid than 'all schools are notable' in the sense that they are actual requirements that can act as guidelines for determining notability while simply saying 'all schools are notable' is not, at least not in the same way. Rather, 'all schools are notable' is a discussion closer; it offers no further justification and makes the whole idea of notability rather worthless. Now, I am actually with you on keeping this particular article, but I agree with Iamunknown in claiming that this whole every high school is notable is a flawed approach that is not in line with most of Misplaced Pages's policies regarding notability standards. --The Way 11:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Comment: You got me on that one. Okay, let's try this: a so-called standard that only accepts those schools that "influence educational standards for a whole national region" or "attract attention because of a nationally-publicized achievement" is no more valid than a standard that specifies notable schools as those with "more than ten students" or "has been open more than two years." One excludes 99.99999% of all schools, allowing about four or five to slip through, while the other includes almost all schools and excludes a few dozen. They're functional equivalents at exact opposite ends of the spectrum. At least those who claim that "all schools are notable" have the intellectual honesty to proclaim their biases out loud, without hiding behind elitist mumbo-jumbo to hide the fact that what they really advocate is "no schools are notable". The plain fact is that a significant percentage of schools, based on the "multiple non-trivial coverage" standard, are in fact notable by any reasonable definition. It's far less than 100%, but it's certainly far more than the 0.00001% that seems to be advocated by some here. The WP:SCHOOL proposal is a reasonable middle ground that is far closer to a rational middle ground than the wacky deletionist WP:SCHOOLS3 or the even wackier, even further away from consensus standard proposed proposed here. As a matter of fact Iamunknown has not listed any school (other than Columbine) that would meet his criteria. I guess any school that wants an article can always hope for a good, old-fashioned massacre. Alansohn 14:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Systemic bias is simply the idea that a specific system or process is likely to (at least somewhat) consistently produce a specific result. On Misplaced Pages this gets a little morphed and built-on into establishing the idea that the average EN.Wikipedian is a white English speaking male in his teens to late fourties with a christian background and some technical bent, and that anything not directly appealing to that demographic is fodder for deletion. It's inappropriate, insulting and sour grapes. I'd love to hear no more talk of it in this debate. •Elomis• 04:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep- Seems to be a notable educational institution. Nileena joseph  16:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
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