Revision as of 19:19, 18 March 2019 editBonadea (talk | contribs)Edit filter helpers, Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers151,858 editsm Reverted edits by Kumaramang (talk) to last version by IvanvectorTag: Rollback← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:29, 18 March 2019 edit undoAhrtoodeetoo (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,519 edits →White nationalist terrorismNext edit → | ||
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::{{ec|3}} Well, when a new category is created, it needs to be populated. We have several "terrorism" subcategories within other nationalist category trees, and (as I observed above) the subject of white nationalist terrorism is being actively discussed recently, and so mass-populating the new category with articles related to white nationalist violence is a reasonable approach. Most have been fairly accurate, some are a stretch, a handful have been shown to be editorially inappropriate, but I don't think anyone so far has found one which was definitely wrong (as in, say, dropping ] into this category). Regarding Posobiec: it is a reasonable view that deliberate alt-right false news constitutes terrorist propaganda; it's not right for Misplaced Pages to repeat that opinion without decent sources and considering an appropriate balance, but this falls within my definition of stretching. Most of the obvious problems that I've seen while picking through these is that they are duplicates via parent categories, and so while the category is ''valid'' it's also ''redundant''. None of this on its own should've been grounds for a block, but there were other factors. | ::{{ec|3}} Well, when a new category is created, it needs to be populated. We have several "terrorism" subcategories within other nationalist category trees, and (as I observed above) the subject of white nationalist terrorism is being actively discussed recently, and so mass-populating the new category with articles related to white nationalist violence is a reasonable approach. Most have been fairly accurate, some are a stretch, a handful have been shown to be editorially inappropriate, but I don't think anyone so far has found one which was definitely wrong (as in, say, dropping ] into this category). Regarding Posobiec: it is a reasonable view that deliberate alt-right false news constitutes terrorist propaganda; it's not right for Misplaced Pages to repeat that opinion without decent sources and considering an appropriate balance, but this falls within my definition of stretching. Most of the obvious problems that I've seen while picking through these is that they are duplicates via parent categories, and so while the category is ''valid'' it's also ''redundant''. None of this on its own should've been grounds for a block, but there were other factors. | ||
::A bigger question maybe is if Misplaced Pages can describe these incidents as terrorism, I mean ''I'' would, but if sources don't agree then the category needs to be renamed. ] would be a suitable replacement title. It would usefully narrow the category and simply definitions that way: people like Posobiec who promote nationalism through their media channels but don't themselves actually participate in violent incidents would be excluded, and it's more likely then that remaining members of the category would be ] by this aspect. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 19:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC) | ::A bigger question maybe is if Misplaced Pages can describe these incidents as terrorism, I mean ''I'' would, but if sources don't agree then the category needs to be renamed. ] would be a suitable replacement title. It would usefully narrow the category and simply definitions that way: people like Posobiec who promote nationalism through their media channels but don't themselves actually participate in violent incidents would be excluded, and it's more likely then that remaining members of the category would be ] by this aspect. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 19:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC) | ||
* No offense to him or anyone else, but I think it's ask if renders {{u|Ivanvector}} ]? It was after his first comment here, but it certainly looks like he's thrown himself into the content dispute. ] <small>(])</small> 19:28, 18 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Logged out editing: IP 82.165.86.117 == | == Logged out editing: IP 82.165.86.117 == |
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Regular edit-warring from user:Jim7049
Jim7049 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Has been warned since January against unconstructive edits, disruptive editing, edit warring and NPOV violations in their talk page. This user has also been blocked and unblocked multiple times by admins but again continued edit warring yesterday on 11 March 2019. Please look into the matter and determine whether this user should continue their Misplaced Pages editing. AmericanAgent (talk) 13:12, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've already warned Jim7049 earlier today for edit warring on Portal:Current events/2019 March 11, and the edit warring has stopped since then. I chose not to block Jim7049 in order to give him/her a chance to put the brakes on the back-and-forth reverts and to discuss the matter properly; Jim7049's contributions show that he's/she's added a discussion to the portal's talk page, which means that he's/she's attempting to do so. There's no block needed at this time, so long as the edit warring doesn't continue. ~Oshwah~ 13:51, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've also left him an in-depth explanation of policy, expectations, and how I step in and manage issues and disputes - see my resposne here. ~Oshwah~ 14:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Oshwah: You may want to revisit. 1 / 2 / 3 reverts of the same user on Portal:Current events/2019 March 15 plus an admittedly noncontentious rv of a second user. This edit (a third user) shows willing to engage with disputes on talkpages at least some of the time; but, "Please stop this kind of false editing which is completely fake and disrupting," is not really the way to begin a content dispute in a civil fashion. Jim seems keen to improve the wiki, but is skirting boundaries a bit and could maybe do with mentoring. Madness 19:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've also left him an in-depth explanation of policy, expectations, and how I step in and manage issues and disputes - see my resposne here. ~Oshwah~ 14:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Same situation, long-standing, on Commons; multiple explanations since January now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:13, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I had recently declined an unblock for edit warring. Jim7049 was then unblocked after affirming understanding what to do instead. DlohCierekim 06:03, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Adding dozens of non notables to article lists
- Korean Americans in New York City (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- New Yorkers in journalism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Chinese in New York City (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Indians in the New York City metropolitan region (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Castncoot (talk · contribs)
Editor was alerted to this last year by DGG . Has responded to my concern thusly: . Many of the non notables are linked to family surnames, so as not to appear as redlinks. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 14:31, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, I can say that I'm definitely not pleased to see Castncoot's reverts here and here to your edits and with the edit summaries he left, essentially calling your edit vandalism, implying that you're a product of sock puppetry, and that you have no policy knowledge. Have we tried going through each article and removing the people listed who don't need to be there? :-) ~Oshwah~ 14:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Also, Hi Bob! :-) ~Oshwah~ 14:41, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- 1) WP:NOTABILITY constitutes the potential for a standalone article, not that there must already be one. 2) I do suspect sockpuppetry here but cannot prove it. 3) In an article entitled "Korean Americans in New York City", a Korean surname is most certainly pertinent and notable for wikilinking, as long as it is done just once per surname. Castncoot (talk) 14:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Castncoot: Please take any concerns regarding sockpuppeteering to SPI, and desist from casting WP:ASPERSIONS. Many thanks. ——SerialNumber54129 15:02, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Castncoot - I agree with your understanding of notability and the fact that it establishes whether an article should exist for the given subject. Having a requirement for a subject to already have its own article in order to be considered notable would be...... an infinite circle of logic and would make no sense, since that would mean that nobody would be notable due to the fact that having an article requires notability and then establishing notability would require an article.... lol.
- 1) WP:NOTABILITY constitutes the potential for a standalone article, not that there must already be one. 2) I do suspect sockpuppetry here but cannot prove it. 3) In an article entitled "Korean Americans in New York City", a Korean surname is most certainly pertinent and notable for wikilinking, as long as it is done just once per surname. Castncoot (talk) 14:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Also, Hi Bob! :-) ~Oshwah~ 14:41, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I can assure you with the upmost confidence that this user is absolutely not a sock puppet, and he possesses a very high level of policy knowledge, experience, and dedication to the project. Can you please share the information and evidence you have that supports your accusation that this user is a sock puppet? ~Oshwah~ 15:02, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Initially I was going to say that I don't see how we can complain if Castncoot is including a reference for each one. But some of the references are broken and/or don't demonstrate that the person in question is a New Yorker or even that they have made more than one journalistic contribution ever. So although s/he is correct in saying that there may be potential for an article, there must be considerable doubt over whether that is actually the case. Deb (talk) 14:55, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Basically, lists of people that have a potently to be indefinitely long (such as a list of Koreans living in NYC, compare to a list of Nobel Prize Laurats), then in combination with BLP, the only people on those indefinitely long lists should be those with blue-links with very limited exemption. Otherwise these lists can attract anyone that can provide minimal sourcing to prove they exist (which is not the same sources that we require by notability). --Masem (t) 14:58, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Please also check the sources that are intended to establish notability; there's a linkedin and links to personal websites. The notability of persons I removed from the Korean Americans article is far from established--merely being a journalist isn't enough. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 15:02, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm going through the lists so far, and I do see some problems. Don't get me wrong: I think that Castncoot is a good editor and he's doing a great thing by creating these lists. Compared to the editors and issues that I'm normally am asked to handle and resolve, the problems that we're seeing here with these lists are definitely minor when comparing it to someone causing vandalism, abuse, harassment, or disruption... lol. I just wanted to make that clear. :-) We just need to fix these issues that we're seeing so that these lists demonstrate and show the upmost quality, accuracy, and comprehensiveness that we can write and provide for viewing and reading. :-) ~Oshwah~ 15:12, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- And I have no problem with that. I only have a pet peeve when someone who's contributed nothing to an article before suddenly swoops in rudely and deletes thousand of bytes and potentially hours spent of hard work without significant discussion first. Castncoot (talk) 15:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Castncoot - That's completely understandable and I don't blame you for feeling that way at all. Can you and who I refer to as "Bob" (this IPv6 IP user) collaborate and go over things together so that you're both on the same page (no pun intended) and can work together to resolve some of the concerns mentioned? I'm willing to help too if required; just let me know. :-) ~Oshwah~ 17:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- And I have no problem with that. I only have a pet peeve when someone who's contributed nothing to an article before suddenly swoops in rudely and deletes thousand of bytes and potentially hours spent of hard work without significant discussion first. Castncoot (talk) 15:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm going through the lists so far, and I do see some problems. Don't get me wrong: I think that Castncoot is a good editor and he's doing a great thing by creating these lists. Compared to the editors and issues that I'm normally am asked to handle and resolve, the problems that we're seeing here with these lists are definitely minor when comparing it to someone causing vandalism, abuse, harassment, or disruption... lol. I just wanted to make that clear. :-) We just need to fix these issues that we're seeing so that these lists demonstrate and show the upmost quality, accuracy, and comprehensiveness that we can write and provide for viewing and reading. :-) ~Oshwah~ 15:12, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Please also check the sources that are intended to establish notability; there's a linkedin and links to personal websites. The notability of persons I removed from the Korean Americans article is far from established--merely being a journalist isn't enough. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 15:02, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- We should only include people who actually have articles in these lists because that's the only way we can be sure that we're not just including names willy nilly. And, no, it does not follow that we would end up in an infinite circle of logic and no articles at all. The fact of the matter is that articles on people are vetted by the community and survive only if the person is notable. Names in a list, on the other hand, are not reviewed by the community for notability and anyone can pop in a name and probably get away with it. I'm trying to assume good faith here but linking to surnames smells of trying to avoid having to deal with names getting removed because there are no linked articles. regentspark (comment) 16:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm taking one at random: "executive manager, five-star luxury Hotel Park Hyatt New York in Midtown Manhattan". Doesn't sound remotely notable to me and I, for one, would prefer to see a linked article to make sure that the person is actually notable enough for inclusion. --regentspark (comment) 16:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- My understanding, then, is that the problem is that I "rudely swooped in"--sorry for the quotations, but there we are. The hours spent adding all those non notables now translates into a time sink for anyone who subsequently goes down the lines of inadequately referenced and unlinked people. The path forward would be for the editor who wishes to introduce the names to first create the stand alone articles, rather than deflecting by arguing that I've ventured into vandalism or using multiple accounts for no good. My first question is why these were all added to begin with. My second question is whether we remove unlinked names in these two articles en masse, or do a line item veto. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 21:36, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm taking one at random: "executive manager, five-star luxury Hotel Park Hyatt New York in Midtown Manhattan". Doesn't sound remotely notable to me and I, for one, would prefer to see a linked article to make sure that the person is actually notable enough for inclusion. --regentspark (comment) 16:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the accepted criterion for these lists is that they have to be shown notable in the sense of having an article or being obviously qualified for one, and there has to be evidence for their connection with the place or whatever. I normally remove any where the information given shows lack of obvious qualifications, but if there's no indication other than the name, I search to see who it is. It might be someone notable as Politician, for example. In that case I add the qualification and the reference, tho ideally I should make a stub article. (and for names removed from the list, it is unfortunately necessary to check they have not been added somewhere else equally inappropriately). DGG ( talk ) 23:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry for the delayed response. First of all, requiring that there already be a standalone Misplaced Pages article about a notable person should be a non-starter. To begin with, this would require changing the definition of WP:NOTABILITY on Misplaced Pages. It would also be a great way of closing off expansion of Misplaced Pages when we should be putting our best efforts into growing the project, rather than stunting its growth. Now, let me also put another issue into perspective - the issue of what makes notability on this list. See, you have to remember that this is an article about notable Koreans or Korean Americans in the New York City metropolitan region. Therefore, people who are local journalists are notable because they cover the local NYC area news and will be familiar faces or names to the local population. That's what the whole purpose of these regional list articles is, to bring out people who are locally notable in their own communities throughout the world. So for example, a Jakartans in journalism article or a Koreans in Jakarta article would include people of local notability. I don't see the distinction between the notability of local politicians, who are explicitly spelled out in local Category:Municipalities in New Jersey articles, even without their own standalone articles, versus journalists. There should be no distinction between a politician and the journalist who covers those politicians (not to mention other matters as well). I hope I've explained my rationale clearly. This will encourage the growth of other similar local and regional articles as well. If you shut the process down with arbitrary rules, it's simply a disservice for our readers not to be able to refer to information about local communities by putting a chilling pall on expansion. Castncoot (talk) 23:45, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, no on all counts. We don't include people because they're known by some people in a local area. Misplaced Pages has notability guidelines, and those aren't moveable goalposts simply because you or I have seen someone on local tv or read their articles in the local paper. Then there's the contention that there's no distinction between a politician and the journalist who writes about them, which is amiss on a fundamental level, per WP:NOTINHERITED. We do expect that a standalone article precede a listing, as several administrators have concurred here. That's a fundamental and non-controversial premise. I'm glad I've brought this here; the misunderstanding of notability guidelines is profound, and suggests a more thorough look through the edit history, beyond the two articles I've noted. As arguments for expansion, they exist outside the realm of our guidelines. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 00:03, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- The regional lists are not to show people that are notable in a region, but to show people in a region that also are notable beyond that. We are not a who's who database, which is the argument that you are using. We avoid having articles on people that are only known locally since we are a global encyclopedia. --Masem (t) 00:12, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not every admin in this thread concurs that there needs to be a pre-existing standalone article to determine notability, as you see in the discussion above. I'm obviously not an admin, but I've expressed my opinion for whatever it's worth, in the event that a policy or guideline is in the works now to be communicated to all Misplaced Pages editors, many (if not a plurality) of whom likely have the same understanding I do. It seems to be a circular argument with a fundamentally flawed premise that there must be a precedent standalone article to determine notability. It's the presence of adequate sourcing which determines the potential for an article and its notability. That's precisely why we don't use other Misplaced Pages articles as reliable sources. Also, this is a global encyclopedia to learn about locally and globally significant topics. Castncoot (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- No, that's just not correct. Notability is based on independent coverage from secondary sources. And because of the promotional issue, WP:AUD says that topics that can only be sourced to local sources are not considered notable. We're also a who's who - just because we might be able to make these lists of all documentable people in an area doesn't mean we should.
- This doesn't mean we absolutely need a blue-linked article, but the evidence to include should show a high likelihood that we would create a bluelinked article in the future. Such as if the person met WP:NBIO or if you can show a couple secondary sources. Keep in mind we do not have inherient notability, so just being a local politician or journalist or the like is not sufficient at all. But most of the time, these lists will only contain blue-linked names. --Masem (t) 02:32, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not every admin in this thread concurs that there needs to be a pre-existing standalone article to determine notability, as you see in the discussion above. I'm obviously not an admin, but I've expressed my opinion for whatever it's worth, in the event that a policy or guideline is in the works now to be communicated to all Misplaced Pages editors, many (if not a plurality) of whom likely have the same understanding I do. It seems to be a circular argument with a fundamentally flawed premise that there must be a precedent standalone article to determine notability. It's the presence of adequate sourcing which determines the potential for an article and its notability. That's precisely why we don't use other Misplaced Pages articles as reliable sources. Also, this is a global encyclopedia to learn about locally and globally significant topics. Castncoot (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry for the delayed response. First of all, requiring that there already be a standalone Misplaced Pages article about a notable person should be a non-starter. To begin with, this would require changing the definition of WP:NOTABILITY on Misplaced Pages. It would also be a great way of closing off expansion of Misplaced Pages when we should be putting our best efforts into growing the project, rather than stunting its growth. Now, let me also put another issue into perspective - the issue of what makes notability on this list. See, you have to remember that this is an article about notable Koreans or Korean Americans in the New York City metropolitan region. Therefore, people who are local journalists are notable because they cover the local NYC area news and will be familiar faces or names to the local population. That's what the whole purpose of these regional list articles is, to bring out people who are locally notable in their own communities throughout the world. So for example, a Jakartans in journalism article or a Koreans in Jakarta article would include people of local notability. I don't see the distinction between the notability of local politicians, who are explicitly spelled out in local Category:Municipalities in New Jersey articles, even without their own standalone articles, versus journalists. There should be no distinction between a politician and the journalist who covers those politicians (not to mention other matters as well). I hope I've explained my rationale clearly. This will encourage the growth of other similar local and regional articles as well. If you shut the process down with arbitrary rules, it's simply a disservice for our readers not to be able to refer to information about local communities by putting a chilling pall on expansion. Castncoot (talk) 23:45, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the accepted criterion for these lists is that they have to be shown notable in the sense of having an article or being obviously qualified for one, and there has to be evidence for their connection with the place or whatever. I normally remove any where the information given shows lack of obvious qualifications, but if there's no indication other than the name, I search to see who it is. It might be someone notable as Politician, for example. In that case I add the qualification and the reference, tho ideally I should make a stub article. (and for names removed from the list, it is unfortunately necessary to check they have not been added somewhere else equally inappropriately). DGG ( talk ) 23:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
I've added a third article above. And I've only gone back to mid-February. 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 00:29, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've added a fourth article. Take, for example, the two Hofstra university professors in the list. If we added every Indian American professor (even just the tenured ones) we'll have a book length article in place. The "locally-known" argument is completely against policy not only because it goes against our definition of notability but also it implies that an editor could add anyone they happen to know as long as they can attach a profession to their name and, perhaps, a website somewhere that verifies the existence of the person, a bar that includes almost everyone today. --regentspark (comment) 02:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's standard to only include people/objects on a list that have an article written on them. I thought that was a given. 209.152.44.201 (talk) 03:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, no. I agree with you that that's a good rule of thumb but it is not currently, to the best of my knowledge, a requirement. The only requirement is "notability" in the sense that the person would qualify for an article on Misplaced Pages, even if one does not correctly exist. We probably need an RfC on this but, in the meantime, I think we can safely delete names that are not sourced to independent sites that demonstrate notability. I also think that we can use WP:BRD to push the onus for demonstrating notability on the editor adding an item to the list since we're only removing names from a list rather than deleting an article. --regentspark (comment) 05:34, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I saw this before but wasn't totally sure that ANI is the right place to discuss it. But since we are, I think we should try to separate the issues. From what I can tell, nearly everyone agrees that for a list of the sort outlined above, every entry should be notable. This means that an article could be created on the subject that would survive AFD. I think most of us also agree that at a minimum, every entry needs a ref that establishes this notability. If someone adds a bunch of names either without sourcing or without sufficient sourcing to establish notability then they should stop. Some random hotel manager is probably not notable without further evidence of notability.
There is disagreement on whether it's useful to add people who are notable before articles exist. From the little I've seen, the community has often rejected such lists when they get unwieldy i.e. there are too many people who lack articles. This is in part because with sourcing, it can be confusing to contest notability when it's not in the form of an AFD. AFAIK it isn't unheard of to impose a requirement that only blue links are allowed.
While it may seem WP:LISTPEOPLE technically only covers stand alone lists, it makes no sense that such a requirement may exist for a stand alone list but not a list within an article where it generally matters more it doesn't get unwieldy. Besides the next section seems to refer to articles. By the same token, a common solution is that all entries should be wikilinks, whether red or blue. (To articles on the subject.) This tends to make it clearer that there is a problem i.e. too many people have been added without articles.In other cases, editors choose even more stringent requirements, such as already having an article written (not just qualifying for one), or being notable specifically for reasons related to membership in this group. This is commonly used to control the size of lists that could otherwise run to hundreds or thousands of people, such as the List of American film actresses.
This does create BLP risks, if we link to the red link Axe Murderer intended for the future article on the Korean American in NYC and then someone with the name Axe Murderer gets famous for something dodgy, like killing people with an axe, and one of our editors creates the article without checking existing incoming links. But still, I don't think we ever agreed red links on LPs are banned and it's not like people don't sometimes blue link a LP without checking the target is the right subject.
I definitely don't think the whole name of the person should be wikilinked to articles on their surname. These sort of WP:easter egg links are too confusing to the reader. If you click on a link for "Michelle Yeoh", you expect to end up on an article for Michelle Yeoh and not Yang (surname). If there is really cause to link the surnames, this should be only on the surname not the whole name. Frankly I'm not convinced there is sufficient reason since it's not like there will be a direct link once all the articles on these notable people are create.
I also question how well the information has been verified if we lack a stand alone article and we're just relying on one or two sources. As always, editor WP:OR should be discouraged. For example, someone with a Malaysian Chinese father and a South or North Korean mother living in New York may very well identify as a Korean Americans in New York City so may reasonably be included in such a list. They may also identify as a Chinese in New York City or something similar, but even if they do, there's no guarantee all sources are going to note that, nor the info on their parents. If their name is Jennifer Lee, linking to Lee (Korean surname) could be weird if their surname actually comes from their father's Li (surname 李).
Nil Einne (talk) 13:05, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Some good points raised by people above. But I would implore people not to turn Misplaced Pages into an elitist platform, but rather one that really is open and relevant to everyone. Unfortunately, the stark reality is that local journalists and businessmen of prominence within Kigali, Rwanda simply don't have the same platform to become prominent in the same way that people under the glaring lights of NYC the media capital do. If we don't encourage the acknowledgement of their local notability, IMO we are depriving the people of Rwanda and states within its vicinity the encouragement and motivation to join the Misplaced Pages community en masse. Misplaced Pages abounds with obscure local human-geographic as well as local non-human geographic topics; why can't this same notability leeway be extended to local human non-politician non-geographic topics?...something to think about. Castncoot (talk) 02:43, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- To the last sentence: WP:Other stuff exists. We are certainly aware that there is bias towards the developed, English-speaking world on en-Misplaced Pages, but we simply can't afford to extend notability to "people who could potentially be notable under our current rules if they were located elsewhere" - that would be entirely unworkable. ansh666 03:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Before this gets archived, is there a consensus on these articles and edits? It doesn't appear that Castncoot accepts the policy yet. 2601:188:180:1481:DC58:C3F7:4619:B4D9 (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Since we are a reliably sourced encyclopedia and not a crowd sourced one, we cannot add people to these lists with a "I happen to have heard of them" logic, whether they be from Kigali or New York. Reliable, independent sources must be made available. I don't think we need consensus to say that you can remove anyone who has an uncertain notability and leave it to the editor adding the names to demonstrate notability by providing reliable independent sources that support that assertion. That's totally in line with our policies on WP:V and the WP:BIO standard. Some "common sense" leeway is probably acceptable but a reliable, independent source is definitely a must (in other words, merely providing a link to an organization homepage is not enough). --regentspark (comment) 07:15, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Before this gets archived, is there a consensus on these articles and edits? It doesn't appear that Castncoot accepts the policy yet. 2601:188:180:1481:DC58:C3F7:4619:B4D9 (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- To the last sentence: WP:Other stuff exists. We are certainly aware that there is bias towards the developed, English-speaking world on en-Misplaced Pages, but we simply can't afford to extend notability to "people who could potentially be notable under our current rules if they were located elsewhere" - that would be entirely unworkable. ansh666 03:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Some good points raised by people above. But I would implore people not to turn Misplaced Pages into an elitist platform, but rather one that really is open and relevant to everyone. Unfortunately, the stark reality is that local journalists and businessmen of prominence within Kigali, Rwanda simply don't have the same platform to become prominent in the same way that people under the glaring lights of NYC the media capital do. If we don't encourage the acknowledgement of their local notability, IMO we are depriving the people of Rwanda and states within its vicinity the encouragement and motivation to join the Misplaced Pages community en masse. Misplaced Pages abounds with obscure local human-geographic as well as local non-human geographic topics; why can't this same notability leeway be extended to local human non-politician non-geographic topics?...something to think about. Castncoot (talk) 02:43, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
I've done a lot of list maintenance since noticing several years ago their particular tendency towards being spammed without anyone removing the spam. To ensure we have encyclopedic lists and not something that falls into WP:NOT (directories, yellow pages, link farms, spam, guestbooks, etc.), we have things like WP:CSC and WP:LISTPEOPLE (and, well, WP:N). We don't want lists that are all inclusive with very few exceptions. Generally, it's ok to include some redlinks/blacktext in a list that can be exhaustive (discographies, lists of contributors to a work, lists of heads of state, list of letters in a given alphabet) but not for a list of examples. For those, we need to have a standard. On Misplaced Pages, we separate things in terms of what's notable. That doesn't, at least in an absolute sense, mean that lists of examples must all only contain blue links, but it does mean they should contain notable entries (established by our notability criteria, and supported by references that demonstrate that notability). As with anything else across Misplaced Pages, there's always a preference, but not a requirement, to search for sources before removing insufficiently sourced content. That goes doubly for lists of people as per LISTPEOPLE. Lists are articles where our policies and guidelines often go out the window -- many of them have few people watching, and they're very easy to say "hey, I'll add myself/my band/my company/my grandparents/someone I know who lives there". Misplaced Pages's policies do reproduce a lot of systemic bias from the rest of the world. To some extent this is unavoidable. The successful projects to address systemic bias work within Misplaced Pages's rules to ensure the representation of people from underrepresented peoples/subjects/areas who are notable according to our guidelines. It's an imperfect solution (hardly a solution at all), but while it's important to understand and keep systemic bias in mind for certain kinds of edge cases, it's hard to use it as an argument to simply put aside this or that guideline... All of this said, I don't know why we're talking about this on ANI. :) — Rhododendrites \\ 13:17, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Several administrators have voiced skepticism as to my bringing this here. I was clear about the rationale, which I think is adequate: I attempted to remove non notables from two articles (we've since added two more articles to those above), and had these edits reverted with the suggestion that I was vandalizing or a sock puppet (?). Then I added two appropriate maintenance templates, which were also quickly removed. The issue involves a prolific editor's misunderstanding of policy. I'd like to have a record of discussion here, should I be challenged again on non controversial removals. Thank you, 2601:188:180:1481:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 19:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Third report about RBL2000 and Venezuelan articles
Summary: RBL2000 has disruptive discussion on Venezuela-related talk pages for the third time
Diffs:
- Use of the term "censor" against the admonishment to not to "use 'you', 'censor,' or 'revise history'" 1
- Unreliable sources: 1, 2
- Assuming bad faith on other editors: 1
Information about previous warnings:
- Special:Diff/884265375#2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis - Level Four Warning by SandyGeorgia
- First incident report by MattLongCT
- Second incident report by ZiaLater
Background: Yesterday I filed a checkuser request of RBL2000 because their behavior led me to believe there was enough evidence of an edit pattern of a sockpuppet account. Now that the checkuser demonstrated that the accounts are unrelated and that investigation was closed, I think the best course of action may be to open again a discussion regarding if an administrative action is needed. RBL2000 was given advice on how to improve editing, but they didn't seem interested; on the contrary, when notified that the discussion was closed because "the posting editor agreed to a 'last chance.'", they replied by saying "Wish it was also last chance for him, lying SOB." RBL2000 started editing on Venezuelan-related articles with a similar pattern as before only five days after the discussion was closed. If I count correctly they have already been given two "last chances", so a community ban may be in order. I'd recommend to examine if any of this behaviour is repeated in articles about North Korea. Pinging involved editors: @Dlohcierekim, Fenetrejones, MattLongCT, SandyGeorgia, Simonm223, The Four Deuces, and ZiaLater: --Jamez42 (talk) 00:03, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- You couldn't get 'em with a SPI, so you're trying again here? How does the clean SPI report improve your position? DlohCierekim 08:12, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Dlohcierekim: This isn't about "getting" an user, I'm notifying the admins and the users involved that the behavior has not improved despite several warnings. Quoting the last closing user, "RBL2000 should be aware that if the other editors do not see improvement, they will probably bring them back to ANI and the result will probably be different." Sockpuppet investigations only discuss evidence related to other accounts, regardless of policy violations; for example, as it can be seen in the investigation request, I provided diffs on bare URLs referencing as evidence, even though it hasn't been discussed in the noticeboard. I think that other users that have followed better the case should give their opinion, but I thought it was important to bring the issue to the noticeboard. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:17, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- @RBL2000: SandyGeorgia is right. The NYTimes is more clearly reliable than the grayzone. You should try a more neutral voice using the Times. DlohCierekim 08:15, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- @RBL2000: I can see how other editors have problems with your sources. Why are we here? Again? A dispute over sources? It shouldn't need ANI to sort this. DlohCierekim 08:18, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- @RBL2000: This is a collaborative project. People offering feedback about collaboration and problem areas is not stalking. People are trying to work with you. DlohCierekim 08:24, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- RBL2000 has not edited since Monday. Hard to have a conversation. This is our third thread. DlohCierekim 13:21, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- On the bright side, RBL2000 has been better at discussing than before and has branched out into less controversy ridden areas. Be nice to here from MJL and @SandyGeorgia:. DlohCierekim 13:33, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Dlohcierekim, I will be honest edits like this concern me. If we are going to say that the CIA had any involvement in a break-in on a North Korean embassy, then we certainly can find better sources than El País to cite for it. I will defer to SandyGeorgia's judgement in the matter, though. I rather would want to hear from TFD since I haven't a clue about anything concerning this. Hope that helps some! :) –MJL ‐Talk‐ 01:55, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- I do not see anything wrong with using one of Spain's best newspapers as a source for something that happened in Spain. The story has since been picked up by BBC, Tbe Guardian, Fox News and other outlets. TFD (talk) 03:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with using El Pais here; there are, though, in the diff given above real indications of the WP:CIR issues that have been a factor in this situation all along. For starters, there is copyvio in the text sourced to El Pais.
Since there have already been FOUR (not three) reports of the ongoing problems here, with exactly ONE admin paying attention while non-admins close and archive discussions, and many people promising to watch over and help this editor, yet doing nothing when the problems continue (as they have), I find little point in using my editing time to work up all the diffs. Just before Jamez42 filed this report, RBL continued personalizing on talk, as they have since Dlohcierekim's first warning. If someone deals with the copyvio, and deals with the fact that the very first warning given in the first thread has not been heeded and continues to be breached, and if any one of the people who claim to want to mentor this user actually do that, follow their edits, and remind them to stop personalizing discussions, then maybe it would be worthwhile for me to weigh in with all the diffs.
I also find it curious that we do not hear from RBL2000. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well said –MJL ‐Talk‐ 17:55, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with using El Pais here; there are, though, in the diff given above real indications of the WP:CIR issues that have been a factor in this situation all along. For starters, there is copyvio in the text sourced to El Pais.
- I do not see anything wrong with using one of Spain's best newspapers as a source for something that happened in Spain. The story has since been picked up by BBC, Tbe Guardian, Fox News and other outlets. TFD (talk) 03:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Dlohcierekim, I will be honest edits like this concern me. If we are going to say that the CIA had any involvement in a break-in on a North Korean embassy, then we certainly can find better sources than El País to cite for it. I will defer to SandyGeorgia's judgement in the matter, though. I rather would want to hear from TFD since I haven't a clue about anything concerning this. Hope that helps some! :) –MJL ‐Talk‐ 01:55, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: Jamez42, I am MattLongCT (global rename). The best way to ping me is to now {{u|MJL}}, {{u|MJL|MattLongCT}}, or {{ping|MJL}}. Cheers! –MJL ‐Talk‐ 13:27, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- You might have put that on Jamez42's page, rather than here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Jamez42 saw it, so I think I was good.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ –MJL ‐Talk‐ 17:55, 15 March 2019 (UTC)- Oh, I get what you mean now. That's certainly noted for the future. Thank you, –MJL ‐Talk‐ 17:57, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- You might have put that on Jamez42's page, rather than here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
User:JohnTopShelf
JohnTopShelf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I originally filed a AN3 report on the editor (here) for multiple 1RR violation in 48 hours, but upon reviewing their User talk comments, their incivility is glaring.
This user seems to have a history of inserting personal attacks, trolling, and snide comments under the guise of WikiLove messages. Just to name a few:. User account is 6 years old, was shown BLP and AP Ds notices back in August and February, but shows a complete disregard for consensus. The very rich history of warnings on their talk page isn't convincing that this isn't a WP:NOTHERE account. Actions may be required for this such rigorous violations. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 03:26, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Note: I have blocked the user for 72 hours to stop their blatant, repeated edit warring. That should not prevent a discussion here about whether there should be additional or longer sanctions for their disruptive behavior. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- In the latest edit-warring spat they have also violated WP:COPYVIO. Please see the details in my comment at the article talk. Dr. K. 03:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I see this is JohnTopShelf's second block. Black Kite blocked them for 48 hours in February. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:25, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I have noticed this editor's behavior over the past few weeks. To me, he seems incapable of working collaboratively with other Misplaced Pages editors. His edit-warring and POV-pushing on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and ludicrous edit requests like this one - "of course, I understand that Misplaced Pages editors and administrators are overwhelming liberals who no doubt share the opinion that President Trump is a liar" - are really indications of little to no willingness to work with other editors . In addition, his WikiLove taunts fall way outside the boundaries of basic civility and respect that editors should be exuding here. Zingarese talk · contribs 04:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I see this is JohnTopShelf's second block. Black Kite blocked them for 48 hours in February. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:25, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I reverted this editor at a BLP about a month ago, and it resulted in a lengthy discussion split between my talk page and their talk page, which was a very pleasant disagreement in which I was left with two barnstars, two beers, a goat and a cookie. Unfortunately, the editor was blocked just a few hours later. Since coming off the block, there are more warnings on the talk page and now another block for edit warring. I haven't see any personal attacks from them myself–in fact they seem rather polite to me–and they clearly can communicate, write prose, and cite sources. While the account is old, they have very few edits, and mostly in the last two years. Their source selection is lopsided but other than a few Daily Mail links its mostly Fox News which is allowed. The POV is definitely there in their edits, but not to an unusual degree. The problem IMO is the editor's steadfast refusal to use or respect the consensus system that is used here in Misplaced Pages. If they went to the article talk pages, presented their sources, and shopped their copy like everyone else, they'd probably get a lot further. But they just keep edit warring and wikilove-arguing. I feel like they could be a useful contributor if they wanted to. Leviv ich 04:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Levivich: That discussion on your user talk looked like an intimidating wall of text with an astounding degree of WikiLove abuse and trolling. I'd remove it on sight per WP:DENY. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 04:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've had such less pleasant conversations though, even with proper formatting and whatnot. I mean, haven't we all? He didn't call me any names or make any accusations. Calling another editor's statement "nonsense" and saying that Misplaced Pages has a left-wing bias are not outside the range of reasonable opinions to express. If it's trolling, it's very calm and polite trolling. I can live with bizarre wikilove messages if they're polite, but I can't live with habitual edit warring, and SPA POV pushing is also tiring. To me those are bigger concerns than civility or personal attacks. Leviv ich 04:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- The message left on my talk page was definitely sarcastic, but I sort of get the sense that this editor is under the impression that wikilove messages are the preferred way to communicate with other editors about article content -they've hardly ever used an article talk page. They also seem confused about the meaning of consensus. Maybe this is a WP:CIR problem, but I don't think they're purely trolling. Nblund 17:20, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've had such less pleasant conversations though, even with proper formatting and whatnot. I mean, haven't we all? He didn't call me any names or make any accusations. Calling another editor's statement "nonsense" and saying that Misplaced Pages has a left-wing bias are not outside the range of reasonable opinions to express. If it's trolling, it's very calm and polite trolling. I can live with bizarre wikilove messages if they're polite, but I can't live with habitual edit warring, and SPA POV pushing is also tiring. To me those are bigger concerns than civility or personal attacks. Leviv ich 04:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Levivich: That discussion on your user talk looked like an intimidating wall of text with an astounding degree of WikiLove abuse and trolling. I'd remove it on sight per WP:DENY. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 04:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Copyvio update I have since found more extensive copyvios for the edit of the now blocked user. Please see this updated copyvio report for these paragraphs. Dr. K. 05:29, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- More copyvios by the same user I am copying from my message at Justlettersandnumbers's talkpage. It seems many of the large-scale edits to articles by this user are copyvios. Copyvio from Kansascity.com, copyvio from Washington examiner.com, copyvio from politifact.com, the usual copyvio about Greenpeace but pasted to a different article. In addition, Justlettersandnumbers has revdeled two additional copyvios from the Alexandria Cortez article: copyvio 1 and copyvio 2. Dr. K. 23:07, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Done by the same admin. ~Swarm~ {talk} 08:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Disruptive editing on National Hockey League articles (revisited)
Revisiting a case that was closed as I believe that there was no long term solution to resolve this case. An explanation of this situation is provided on the previous report that I have linked. The user that I have concerns with is NicholasHui (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), as they have been making persistent disruptive edits on certain NHL articles. Yowashi (talk) 06:13, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Do you have any specific examples? SportingFlyer T·C 07:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Agreed. Don't expect people to wade through the wall of text from the previous ANI.—Bagumba (talk) 09:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Note on other account: NicholasHui had another account with which they edited with before. I had asked them to mark it as retired, or they could have stated a legitimate reason to keep it around, but they did not respond. I have since blocked the other account..—Bagumba (talk) 09:55, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Here are some more recent examples of NicholasHui's contributions that were incorrect. (, , ). I made corrections to these at a later time. The thing that I can't understand is why they can't just wait for the information provided by this source (which they don't use) to be updated.
Some information I add in to the GAA average for Goaltender Statistics comes from the NHL Teams 2018-19 regular season stats. An example is I changed Anthony Stolaz's GAA average to 3.43 because I saw it from the Edmonton Oilers regular season stats. But even though I put it to 3.43 GAA average, Sabbatino informed me that the information Yowashi gets is from http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?report=goaliesummary&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20182019&seasonTo=20182019&gameType=2&playerPlayedFor=team.22&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=wins. I even said that on my edit summary from the Edmonton Oilers 2018-19 season page history. NicholasHui (talk). — Preceding unsigned comment added by NicholasHui (talk • contribs) 16:38, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Notwithstanding the issues raised by OP, I am concerned by edits like this (possible sock?) and this (CIR). GiantSnowman 16:41, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I think a large part of the problem is that NicholasHui (evidenced by their own statement above and by the last ANi report) is not using reliable sources. As far as I could tell, NicholasHui was coming up with numbers on their own (failing WP:OR), taking them from live TV broadcasts of the games, or using unreliable sources (a fact which they warned about by Sabbatino here). I'll note that the last ANI was closed with this warning about about WP:V and WP:OR (as well as not socking). Captain Eek 20:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Completely agree with Captain Eek. Nicholas Hui calculates the information on their own, and then publishes their information on an article. This is the reason why the numbers for the goaltenders don't always match with the information provided from official sources. I honestly don't know why someone like Nicholas Hui would even waste time calculating all these numbers when you can just simply refer to a reliable source. On the plus side of using a reliable source, there is a 100% chance of being correct rather than calculating all these numbers and end up being incorrect. That's what makes me have so many questions about this individual. Also, here is another example of Nicholas Hui's contributions on the 2018–19 Ottawa Senators season article . I'll give them props for fixing it, but again, they are still calculating these numbers. Yowashi (talk) 03:12, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- I think a large part of the problem is that NicholasHui (evidenced by their own statement above and by the last ANi report) is not using reliable sources. As far as I could tell, NicholasHui was coming up with numbers on their own (failing WP:OR), taking them from live TV broadcasts of the games, or using unreliable sources (a fact which they warned about by Sabbatino here). I'll note that the last ANI was closed with this warning about about WP:V and WP:OR (as well as not socking). Captain Eek 20:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Just to know that I admit to calculating the playing time for Ottawa Senators goaltender statistics incorrectly was because the game was not totally finalized yet. That was why. Also, stop complaining how my updates are like when they are correct. Note that when you updated the Calgary Flames 2018-19 season player statistics when they lost to Arizona Coyotes 2-0, you forgot to add in the Games played for Garnet Hathaway and it was on your behalf. So that was partially on you. You look at the Ottawa Senators 2018-19 season stats and you find that another IP User editing the Ottawa Senators page does it similar to how my edit strategy is because I was following that user's example on the Ottawa Senators season page since. NicholasHui (talk)
- I didn't forget. In my defense, for whatever reason, NHL.com had Hathaway's GP listed at 61. Every other player on the Flames roster had been updated so I assumed that Hathaway's was updated as well. My mistakes are different from yours, as mine are not intentional, yours are, because you intentionally provide incorrect information. If you want me to stop complaining about your edits, then listen to what myself and other people have been trying to tell you this entire time. Other than that, I'm gonna keep complaining until you learn how to edit the proper way. Yowashi (talk) 03:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Now I'm being accused on my talk page for not updating the stats correctly even though I explained the situation in my comment above. Honestly, in my opinion, this individual is not here to build an encyclopedia. Yowashi (talk) 04:13, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment @NicholasHui: I'm unclear what you were trying to achieve by making accusations on Yowashi's talk page as well as here at this ANI discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 05:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Now I'm being accused on my talk page for not updating the stats correctly even though I explained the situation in my comment above. Honestly, in my opinion, this individual is not here to build an encyclopedia. Yowashi (talk) 04:13, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't forget. In my defense, for whatever reason, NHL.com had Hathaway's GP listed at 61. Every other player on the Flames roster had been updated so I assumed that Hathaway's was updated as well. My mistakes are different from yours, as mine are not intentional, yours are, because you intentionally provide incorrect information. If you want me to stop complaining about your edits, then listen to what myself and other people have been trying to tell you this entire time. Other than that, I'm gonna keep complaining until you learn how to edit the proper way. Yowashi (talk) 03:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Most recent update @NicholasHui: For your most recent edit to update Toronto's stats (looks like an hour or two at most) after the end of their game, can you explain the specific sources you use to edit those stats? Thank you.—
The stats I add in to the[REDACTED] stats are from the recap games on the team stats for that game only. NicholasHui (talk) Sometimes, I might use the official team stat source if I was unsure of how my edits match to the official source.
Bagumba (talk) 02:49, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: I believe NicholasHui uses this as their reference. However, there is a waiting period until it gets updated. The only other possible source I can think of is this one, but this one doesn't display the player's stats for the entire season. So, my guess is that they calculate the new stats by adding on or subtracting any of the numbers from a player's previous game. For goaltenders, they definitely calculate the stats, considering a goaltender's stats for the entire season are not displayed anywhere on the game recaps. The recaps only show their statistics for that specific game only. Yowashi (talk) 05:33, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Yowashi: NicholasHui might be using this (or any other teams' website) as his source, which does not get updated immediately. I must also note that teams' websites tend to list different information than the main NHL stats website. Seeing that stats differ, I assume that some teams calculate the stats differently than the NHL. In addition, teams' stats websites tend to list only current players and omit any player who was sent to another league (two-way players), traded, bought out, etc., which just shows that you cannot get a full list and correct stats from the teams' websites. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:43, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Sabbatino: Perhaps NicholasHui does use the team's website as their source. For example, when they changed Anthony Stolarz's GAA to 3.43, the only source that I found that had that information was from the Oilers' official website. I initially thought that 3.43 could have been his GAA with the Flyers and Oilers, but I realized that the stats only reflect time on a player's current team. I still believe that NicholasHui calculates the stats, as there is no source that has all this information updated immediately after a game has concluded. They also update the stats section very quickly after every game, so that would eliminate the usage of sources besides the ones that I mentioned previously. I do believe that they had mentioned getting their information from the recaps sometime in the past. Yowashi (talk) 08:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Yowashi: NicholasHui might be using this (or any other teams' website) as his source, which does not get updated immediately. I must also note that teams' websites tend to list different information than the main NHL stats website. Seeing that stats differ, I assume that some teams calculate the stats differently than the NHL. In addition, teams' stats websites tend to list only current players and omit any player who was sent to another league (two-way players), traded, bought out, etc., which just shows that you cannot get a full list and correct stats from the teams' websites. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:43, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't depend too much on official NHL team sources. Many of them haven't even updated their captains & alternate captains, for the current season. GoodDay (talk) 18:23, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Recent contributions by NicholasHui. (2018–19 Toronto Maple Leafs season , 2018–19 Calgary Flames season , 2018–19 Winnipeg Jets season ) My contributions from March 16 that are corrections to NicholasHui's edits. (2018–19 Toronto Maple Leafs season , 2018–19 Calgary Flames season , 2018–19 Winnipeg Jets season ). I used this website as my source. NicholasHui needs to be stopped from editing these articles, as it is clear that they don't use official sources to obtain their information from, and for refusing to rearrange the position of players based on total points. Yowashi (talk) 04:21, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the input. However, I would suggest we remain focused on 2018–19 Toronto Maple Leafs season for now, and not get too sidetracked with potentially too many open issues. I do notice that your source URL is diffrent from what is cited at 2018–19_Toronto_Maple_Leafs_season#Player_statistics. Is there any prior consensus among the WikiProject on 1) what source to use, 2) when it is reliable to update?—Bagumba (talk) 08:24, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: We use this source instead of this one, as the latter does not show information on players that have been traded, sent down to other leagues (generally a team's American Hockey League team), their contract being terminated mid season, etc. Occasionally there may be some discrepancies between the two sources. For example, the first source that I listed from NHL.com has Frederik Andersen's GAA listed at 2.75, while the team's website has it listed at 2.74. We're not sure why there is a discrepancy, but considering that the team's website doesn't show information on players that are currently not with the organization, we have deemed the team's website as an unreliable source. Perhaps the sources provided on the team's article shall be changed to the other source, maybe during the 2019 Stanley Cup playoffs, as we still have to do statistics for teams that participate in the playoffs, or change it when articles for next season are created. NHL.com usually has the information updated 30-40 minutes after a game has concluded, but some information gets re-evaluated. It is recommended to update the stats section on articles hours or even a day later. Yowashi (talk) 16:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- There is a current discussion in regards to this topic over on the Wikiproject Ice Hockey talk page. Yowashi (talk) 16:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't mean to digress from the issue at hand but Andersen's GAA is 2.744970798183. Shouldn't it be rounded down to 2.74? I didn't even know there could ever be inconsistencies between the league website and a team's website. When I'm updating the GAA leader in the infobox for the Lightning I always just plug in the numbers to this website after a game is over, unless the game ends in overtime. Tampabay721 (talk) 01:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: We use this source instead of this one, as the latter does not show information on players that have been traded, sent down to other leagues (generally a team's American Hockey League team), their contract being terminated mid season, etc. Occasionally there may be some discrepancies between the two sources. For example, the first source that I listed from NHL.com has Frederik Andersen's GAA listed at 2.75, while the team's website has it listed at 2.74. We're not sure why there is a discrepancy, but considering that the team's website doesn't show information on players that are currently not with the organization, we have deemed the team's website as an unreliable source. Perhaps the sources provided on the team's article shall be changed to the other source, maybe during the 2019 Stanley Cup playoffs, as we still have to do statistics for teams that participate in the playoffs, or change it when articles for next season are created. NHL.com usually has the information updated 30-40 minutes after a game has concluded, but some information gets re-evaluated. It is recommended to update the stats section on articles hours or even a day later. Yowashi (talk) 16:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Just to know that when you told me that Mike Smith's saves in total he had in that game against Winnipeg Jets, I checked my work and I added in the information correctly. So the mistake was on Yowashi's behalf as he forgot to add one more save in total in the game against Arizona Coyotes. I admit the mistake was part of mine because I assumed that Yowashi's edits where done correctly. Also, when I update the statistics for Canadian Teams, I add or subtract the players numbers from the recap game. That might be why I may be at fault for the mistakes if I was not using the official team stats source. But Yowashi has to be part of the blame too if he was not checking his own work as well. NicholasHui (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- For Mike Smith's SA, 919 was literally what I obtained from the source. So please tell me, how am I supposed to double check that, when these sources are supposed to give accurate information? Also, SA stands for (shots against), not saves. Yowashi (talk) 16:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC) How you double check the work is you also look at the recap games for the total amount of shots against he had in the teams stats for the recap game only. It can be added in to the stats on wikipedia. Mike Smith's total amount of shots against should have been 920 since he faced 26 shots against. Not 25 shots against.NicholasHui (talk)
- You seriously expect me to do that? I mean, I shouldn't have to calculate numbers when I can literally take numbers from a source. Note, calculating numbers is very unreliable, and can lead to mistakes. So that's why I don't do that. Also, if you think you're so darn good at updating the stats, then you do it. We'll see how well that goes. Yowashi (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Range block needed again for Malaysian nationality vandal (the third ANI filing for the same range within a year)
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive994#User:2405:3800::/32
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive997#Range_block_needed_again_for_Malaysian_nationality_vandal
- 2405:3800:502:1047:ccaa:3003:bae7:df77 (talk · contribs) (vandalize full name and change lede nationality )
- 2405:3800:400:7bf6:4c0c:5ef4:ce08:5df5 (talk · contribs) (vandalize nationality to hoax value)
- 2405:3800:483:97E0:ECB3:A26B:74EA:9F19 (talk · contribs) (full name vandal)
- Fernando Muslera (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (the ip change Uruguayan to hoax value: Malaysian, just like last two ANI filings)
- Wan Kuzain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Sporting Kansas City (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Fuad Ramli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (the ip change Singaporean to hoax value: Malaysian )
- Faris Ramli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (the ip change Singaporean to hoax value: Malaysian )
- Ariff Farhan Isa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Khairil Anuar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Ki Sung-yueng (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (hoax given name, change medal to hoax value to gold)
5df5 had a short block (36h) recently within this week, but it seem it need longer. Matthew hk (talk) 08:38, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Update. After 5df5 was blocked for 2 weeks, immediately ip hopping as usual to 2405:3800:483:62C7:8C9F:D50D:7AD5:84A2 (talk · contribs) and vandalise Sporting Kansas City again. Matthew hk (talk) 13:26, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Latest is 2405:3800:402:7B3E:2425:BDA3:322E:5A8A (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Nzd (talk) 19:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- And now 2405:3800:401:2D2B:E967:2598:3310:7D03 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Nzd (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yup, pass WP:DUCK test on yet again vandalize Mulan (Disney character). Matthew hk (talk) 10:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- And now 2405:3800:401:2D2B:E967:2598:3310:7D03 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Nzd (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Latest is 2405:3800:402:7B3E:2425:BDA3:322E:5A8A (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Nzd (talk) 19:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- It became a ritual to list out how wide spread this vandal before getting someone else notice.
- Amirul Azhan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (full name vandal)
- Ikhsan Fandi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (unsourced full name)
- Irfan Fandi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (unsourced full name)
- Fadzrul Danel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (unsourced change in name)
- Adib Zainudin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (unsourced change in name)
- Now at 2405:3800:502:100A:862:AE07:E0E9:52AE (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Matthew hk (talk) 12:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- New article victim Bryan Nickson Lomas. Matthew hk (talk) 12:44, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Asia's Got Talent (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Asia's Got Talent (season 1) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Saiful Apek (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- KRU (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Syamer Kutty Abba (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
175.143.166.187+175.143.166.162 (same user)
Ip user on 175.143.166.187 was given several warnings to not add unsourced content to GeForce 16 series and Nvidia PureVideo. User has refused to stop removing the unsourced content (1650) despite leaving a message on their talk page. User also decided to make an attacking comment in one of their edits on the GeForce 16 series insulting the editors that reverted the ip's edits. Ip's edits also caused several users to request page protection for Geforce 16 series page. After issuing the warning, user decided to change to 175.143.166.162 to readd the unsourced info. Due to persistent addition of unsourced or improperly cited material and after being recommended by one of the admins on the requests for protection page to report the user here if it were to continue, i decided to post this message here since the user appears to refuse to remove the unsourced material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thesmartbird (talk • contribs) 13:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
After some time, 175.143.166.162 decided to remove the notice and the warning by blanking the page. User proceeded to re-add the unsourced/leaked info that ip admitted to doing, on Geforce 16 series, Nvidia PureVideo, High Efficiency Video Coding, and High Efficiency Video Coding implementations and products. The user did not blank the page on its other ip, but has shown that it has disregarded the the avi notice and warning that was posted on one of the talk pages the user has access to. Thesmartbird (talk) 18:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- GeForce 16 series semi-protected for a week per WP:RFPP, but I'd like to see some discussion on the article talk pages. Miniapolis 23:11, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how effective that would be seeing that the user has jumped to another ip 175.143.190.121. On that ip, the user readded the unreliable info that was previously removed. Also on the Turing_(microarchitecture) page, 175.143.184.172 appears to be the same user as the other 3 ip's, having been previously warned by a different editor for vandalising that particular page. I placed the avi notices on the other ips. I'm not sure what action you would take, but it looks like that the user appears to not want to communicate at all (aside from the attacking comment it made on one of its edits on one of the ip's it used). Thesmartbird (talk) 13:20, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Is this Copyvio?
User:Michaelmarilyn appears to be adding copyvio text to the article Tara Chambler and possibly other articles as well. Can someone please look?: 8.37.179.254 (talk) 17:33, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's clearly WP:COPYVIO, but seems to be confined to this one article. The pattern of inaccurate edit summaries is universal however. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 18:21, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Page semi-protected by BOZ . However that might not do the trick, as User:Michaelmarilyn is already auto confirmed. Temp full protection may be needed. Note that User:Michaelmarilyn using misleading edit sums to add clear copy-vios . In fact a look at their contribs shows that the only edit sum they've ever used is "Fixed typos". I've warned user . Captain Eek 21:00, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- @BOZ: Courtesy ping per your recent page protection, page may need temp full protection instead of semi. Captain Eek 21:02, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for letting me know. I already have the page on my watchlist, so if the user ignores the warnings I think it is fair to block them instead of resorting to further protection. That said, do you think I should remove the protection from the article? BOZ (talk) 21:10, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- If there is only one problem editor, then per WP:PP
In addition, administrators may apply temporary semi-protection ... when blocking individual users is not a feasible option
I think the page could be unprotected. Captain Eek 21:27, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- If there is only one problem editor, then per WP:PP
- OK, thanks for letting me know. I already have the page on my watchlist, so if the user ignores the warnings I think it is fair to block them instead of resorting to further protection. That said, do you think I should remove the protection from the article? BOZ (talk) 21:10, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- @BOZ: Courtesy ping per your recent page protection, page may need temp full protection instead of semi. Captain Eek 21:02, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Page semi-protected by BOZ . However that might not do the trick, as User:Michaelmarilyn is already auto confirmed. Temp full protection may be needed. Note that User:Michaelmarilyn using misleading edit sums to add clear copy-vios . In fact a look at their contribs shows that the only edit sum they've ever used is "Fixed typos". I've warned user . Captain Eek 21:00, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have revdel'd the copyvio's. DlohCierekim 06:48, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Disruptive IP sock of blocked user
Sock? Not? No matter; blocked. (non-admin closure) Madness 19:45, 17 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The IP 97.71.138.2, almost certainly the sock of the recently blocked vandal Fiji123, has taken to adding bad-faith PRODs to articles created by editors who have reverted him. Examples: , , . See also the IP's latest comments/edit summaries at User talk:97.71.138.2: , . Pinging Drmies who blocked the named account on March 7. Voceditenore (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I was on my way to block them for the "assburger" comment but Drmies beat me to it. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:49, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Blocked, indeed, but I see no evidence of socking. Drmies (talk) 17:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Drmies, Fiji123's last edit was vandalism to Maurice Ravel . Three minutes after it was reverted, the IP PRODs it and then PRODs another article created by the editor who reverted the vandalism at Maurice Ravel . Voceditenore (talk) 18:10, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Voceditenore, Interesting. I have a magic tool, but it's possible that there's other users who know better how to wield it. In other words, a real CU. I found no connection. Drmies (talk) 18:13, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- My personal opinions on this are (1) Drmies is perfectly capable of shaking the Magic Checkuser 8-Ball; and (2) when you have an indeffed editor and an IP doing things that would get them blocked regardless of what logged-out editor they might be, there's no purpose in running CU. It also tends to be against the checkuser policy to compare accounts with IPs. I didn't do much evaluating for sockpuppetry here because it was not a good use of time that could be better spent pushing block buttons. Ivanvector (/Edits) 19:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Voceditenore, Interesting. I have a magic tool, but it's possible that there's other users who know better how to wield it. In other words, a real CU. I found no connection. Drmies (talk) 18:13, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Drmies, Fiji123's last edit was vandalism to Maurice Ravel . Three minutes after it was reverted, the IP PRODs it and then PRODs another article created by the editor who reverted the vandalism at Maurice Ravel . Voceditenore (talk) 18:10, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Lawsuit talk by Cold Fusion 2019
WP:NOTHERE block applied; clearly, the spirit of NLT applies, discussions on if the letter of NLT does (or should) apply aren't best placed on ANI, but on NLT's own talkpage. (non-admin closure) Madness 19:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Cold Fusion 2019 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user contacted ජපස (aka jzg) about an ongoing lawsuit against Misplaced Pages ( ). WP:NLT seems to apply to this, but I'm honestly not 100% sure. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:05, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Did you mean jps? -Roxy, the dog. wooF 19:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I did... I don't even have a good excuse for that. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:15, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, you have a decent excuse for that; CF19 left an identical message for JzG. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:17, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oh! That's where I saw that... somehow mixed up ජපස's signature with JzG EvergreenFir (talk) 19:19, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've indef'd Cold Fusion 2019 for NOTHERE. Their ONLY two edits are to post about a lawsuit filed against Misplaced Pages? Chances are it's very likely a sock as well. Either way, block applied. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:21, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, my guess is SF-banned User:Abd. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, you have a decent excuse for that; CF19 left an identical message for JzG. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:17, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I did... I don't even have a good excuse for that. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:15, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- I saw this elsewhere. CF2019 is not the one doing the suing. I am not sure NLT applies in this case. spryde | talk 19:31, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just because CF19 says they aren't the ones doing the suing, doesn't mean they aren't the ones doing the suing. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:35, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- FYI if you're interested in the plaintiff's perspective - I couldn't access the actual lawsuit. ] TimTempleton 19:40, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not really. I just remember him from long ago in the WP community and other groups. spryde | talk 19:45, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- FYI if you're interested in the plaintiff's perspective - I couldn't access the actual lawsuit. ] TimTempleton 19:40, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Even if this is not the person pursuing the legal case, they are making demands based on the legal case, and I'd say NLT very much applies. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:47, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just because CF19 says they aren't the ones doing the suing, doesn't mean they aren't the ones doing the suing. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:35, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
IMO, the WP:NLT policy says that "while you may sue in a court of law, Misplaced Pages is not the place for legal disputes"
and that users "are typically blocked from editing while the threats are outstanding"
. A block is removed if the threat is "genuinely and credibly withdrawn"
. Should a user make good on their threat, and the lawsuit is unresolved, I think a block would still be appropriate is the same spirit as this policy. And the parallel for a "genuinely and credibly withdrawn" would be the legal resolution of any lawsuits. (Maybe this could be proposed as an amendment to NLT through a discussion at VPP?) EvergreenFir (talk) 20:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- How to put this. "I ain't da guy, sees? But what you did to dis guy was bad, sees? So, if you know what's good for ya, sees." Clearly a legal threat and clearly a ham-handed attempt to disown it. DlohCierekim 05:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Technically it's not a legal threat if the lawsuit is already filed. The same NLT principles apply, though. Ongoing litigation shouldn't be discussed on-wiki because, inter alia, anything that's said about the lawsuit could be used as evidence in the lawsuit and that would make WMF's lawyers pull their hair out (if they have any). Maybe NLT should be updated to say explicitly that making legal threats or discussing ongoing litigation is prohibited. Leviv ich 15:30, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
I believe that, if it becomes necessary for ජපස and JzG to defend against this suit, the WikiMedia Foundation should help them do so. (I realize this may not be the best place for this comment. But, where is the best place?) Cardamon (talk) 04:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
IPs removing references to MH17 and MH370
Rangeblock'd (non-admin closure) Madness 19:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm not sure if this goes at SPI, AIV or somewhere else, so I'm reporting it here. Someone seems determined to remove references to the downing of MH17 and loss of MH370. Pops up every couple of days from a (slightly) different IP, removes the same content, and uses similar summaries (eg Remove unrelated content). Is a rangeblock possible? IPs involved: Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9:6054:B009:6F7C:436A:9395 Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9:6AC8:4126:7AF9:45CF:F435 Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9:6AC8:49A:F255:7D39:77CE Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9:440C:C941:D626:E9DD:E915 Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9:7306:934:60E3:D02E:16F9 Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9:56A9:60F3:A227:2241:6010 Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9:654E:18CA:7125:18C8:A2B0 Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9:5F70:3F:E9FF:E7A3:3044 Probably not related: Special:Contributions/219.92.42.162 Special:Contributions/219.92.43.151 Question: Is there an exception to the requirement to notify editors when reporting them at ANI if it's a bunch of ips? I'll go ahead and template them now, wondering for the future Hydromania (talk) 08:27, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Procedural note, it's probably impossible to notify an editor whose IP changes that frequently. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:41, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Every edit from the associated /48 since December 3 seems to be this same vandal (see Special:Contributions/2001:D08:D9::/48). I put a one month block on the range. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:49, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Awesome! Hydromania (talk) 08:57, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's effectively impossible to notify an IPv6 editor (the long hexadecimal ones) because their discrete IP can change with each edit, and you can't notify a range. Our guidelines don't consider that technical detail. Ivanvector (/Edits) 11:14, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Awesome! Hydromania (talk) 08:57, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Persistent Non-Free Content violations
Blocked indef. (non-admin closure) Madness 19:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- عبدالله ديري (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I went to leave a message on this user's Talk Page... It is flooded with WP:NFC notifications (which they have obviously chosen to ignore). There was even another notification added last night. DarkKnight2149 14:40, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Another one of these. Zero edits to talk pages, scores of image warnings. I have indefinitely blocked the editor until they decide to communicate. WP:CIR. Fish+Karate 16:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging Salavat who seems to spend a lot of his time adding all the fair use licensing information to the various images this editor uploads and may have a view on whether this user is contributing any actually useful content. Fish+Karate 16:25, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Most of this users uploads were being used in an appropriate way when I came across them and I believe the majority were kept. Whether the articles were lacking images before the User uploaded them or whether they were replacing existing images that I am not sure of. I can say though that the uploader put no effort in the upload, not even a description or source. Salavat (talk) 04:54, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging Salavat who seems to spend a lot of his time adding all the fair use licensing information to the various images this editor uploads and may have a view on whether this user is contributing any actually useful content. Fish+Karate 16:25, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Review of block I imposed on My Lord
Nothing to see here. My Lord unblocked. Admins are encouraged to forward anonymous allegations of socking in the South Asian topic area to ArbCom. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:51, 15 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have just blocked My Lord (talk · contribs) for 31 hours because I believe he may still be abusing multiple accounts.
I was reached out to by email from an anonymous user who has presented evidence of continued socking. After reviewing it, I have come to believe that there is reason to believe that the claim is true.
On January 30th, 2019, Abecedare filed an appeal on behalf of the user and unblocked them to allow participation in the appeal. The appeal was closed as successful by Oshwah on February 11, 2019. The thread can be found here.
On February 13, 2019, 112.134.66.1 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) started editing making the claim that they are a long term IP editor with no registered account. They also left an edit warring warning to Gazoth.
On March 13, 2019, My Lord left this warning on PakEditor's talk page linking to the warning the IP left Gazoth's talk page with the claim of having already warned them before.
Not sure if this was intentional or not, but I'm left with the impression that something is still amiss here. It also seems behavioral evidence is really similar between the IP and My Lord. Even if this is stale, it would suggest the issues were still ongoing while the appeal was open.
I submit to the community to review my block. I made this block with the best of intentions for the project, so if this is a bad block, I, or any admin, will happily reverse it.—CYBERPOWER (Chat) 16:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- I find ML's explanation that their warning to PakEditor was a cut and paste of the IP's warning to Gazoth, and not an indirect admission of being the IP, to be credible. Also, afaik, the IP geolocates to a different country than ML's. As a side note, I am wary of evidence concerning Indo-Pak editors being emailed around since in the past I have seen photoshopped documents being presented, and while that may not be relevant in this instance we should note that there were apparent attempts to set up ML as a continuing sockpuppeteer as recently as Feb 12. Pinging @Berean Hunter and Ivanvector: for further input. Abecedare (talk) 17:22, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Abecedare, That is definitely good to know. So it's possible I may have simply fallen for the setup. —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 17:25, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- No comment with respect to IP address(es) but the accounts that were possible technical matches on the ranges I checked while reviewing the current block did not look to be My Lord when I looked at the behaviour, to the point where I'm not even going to bother to list them here. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:30, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- TonyBallioni, and on that note, it's safe to say I fell for a bad report trying to get him blocked. I have unblocked him. —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 17:34, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- (responding to ping) The block issue seems to have been resolved while I was edit-conflicting with everyone, and I have nothing new to add anyway so I'll just leave it at that. On the subject of South Asian editors anonymously emailing allegations of sockpuppetry to apparently random administrators, I advise any administrator who receives such a message to forward it to the Arbitration Committee. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ivanvector, Noted. —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 17:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- (responding to ping) The block issue seems to have been resolved while I was edit-conflicting with everyone, and I have nothing new to add anyway so I'll just leave it at that. On the subject of South Asian editors anonymously emailing allegations of sockpuppetry to apparently random administrators, I advise any administrator who receives such a message to forward it to the Arbitration Committee. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- TonyBallioni, and on that note, it's safe to say I fell for a bad report trying to get him blocked. I have unblocked him. —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 17:34, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- And regarding the IP, I personally find it doubtful that the same person wrote "interminable obfuscation and stonewalling" as wrote "What you meant from Do not add text that is still under discussion? Neither I have to entertain your WP:IDHT nor you WP:OWN this article." But those were both the same edit. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:42, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- What I mean to say is the "long term IP editor with no account" is being fed false accusations by some third party meaning to cause trouble, a very clear violation of WP:MEAT. This is not the first time we've seen this on this board. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- And regarding the IP, I personally find it doubtful that the same person wrote "interminable obfuscation and stonewalling" as wrote "What you meant from Do not add text that is still under discussion? Neither I have to entertain your WP:IDHT nor you WP:OWN this article." But those were both the same edit. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:42, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
@TonyBallioni and Ivanvector: Unless I'm missing something they should be sending to the functionaries' email list and not Arbcom. The checkusers should not miss the information by diverting to Arb. The Arb members can see it there. We need to see what is being said.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 19:34, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- If it involves off-wiki accusations involving privacy, arb is likely better, which is what I think Ivanvector was getting at (and if he wasn't, my apologies for reading it that way). Yes, the functionaries list would also be a good place to send this. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, functs is fine, but as far as I know there isn't a convenient way to email that list on-wiki. I guess that's not a good point since you'd be forwarding from your own email anyway. Ivanvector (/Edits) 19:41, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- If it involves off-wiki accusations involving privacy, arb is likely better, which is what I think Ivanvector was getting at (and if he wasn't, my apologies for reading it that way). Yes, the functionaries list would also be a good place to send this. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- The title of this thread leads me to ponder the theological question, "Can God impose a block that He can't overturn?" EEng 21:28, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- No, because he's not an admin. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:59, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nor would he pass RfA. In the Old Testament he had tons of meatpuppets and in the New his sockpuppet gets community banned. EEng 19:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Might be overlooked given the strong history of content creation. Leviv ich 02:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Exhibits ownership and Battleground behavior. Also Original Sinthesis. EEng 06:40, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Only against legitimate POV pushers and COI editors, and always with the best interests of the wiki at heart. Anyway, doesn't need the tools as he's already a member of the founder group. Leviv ich 15:41, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Exhibits ownership and Battleground behavior. Also Original Sinthesis. EEng 06:40, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Might be overlooked given the strong history of content creation. Leviv ich 02:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nor would he pass RfA. In the Old Testament he had tons of meatpuppets and in the New his sockpuppet gets community banned. EEng 19:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- No, because he's not an admin. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:59, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
my talk page is being vandalized
review my edit history. look at the articles i've written for context. make a decision. I dont want to participate in the wiki project anymore if it's like this. I dont see any substantive reason for the warning and the warning message is written to make me look bad. I'm not getting any reasonable replies. all or nothing, just delete this account if you think it's inappropriate.
Verify references (talk) 20:55, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Verify references: Howdy hello! I understand that warnings don't feel good. But the warnings are just that: only cautionary notes about behavior. Even folks who've been on this project for years and made tens of thousands of edits still get warned about things. The warnings on your talk page asked that you be civil and not use pejorative language. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project, and we prefer to keep curses and pejoratives out of interactions. We invite you to continue editing Misplaced Pages, but remind you that there are standards for editing and interacting. TLDR: you are free to keep editing, but please don't use slurs. Captain Eek ⚓ 21:15, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- https://en.wiktionary.org//b/tard
- https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%2Fb%2Ftard
- https://gawker.com/5609419/4chan-founder-tries-to-explain-b-tard-to-federal-prosecutors
- it's not hateful language by any means. it's a term used with ownership among his community. the content i posted was specifically about that. if you want to debate that stupid people make bad choices, i'm happy to dig up old books i havnt read in 10 years for references to debate it but i stand by what i said. The shooter is just a retard from the internet not some ex-mil serbian nationalist like news sources were suggesting earlier in the day.
- Verify references (talk) 22:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- Uh oh. EEng 22:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- If you don't see how using the word "retard" as a pejorative is offensive, then we have a problem. Competency is required at Misplaced Pages, and that term is highly offensive for people with intellectual disabilities, and those who care for people with intellectual disabilities. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Verify references: Whether or not you think its offensive, consensus on Misplaced Pages holds that its pejorative use is very offensive. My recommendation to you is that if you'd like to continue editing Misplaced Pages, you should pledge to not use offensive language and to be civil, retract your above statement, and not attempt to argue whether or not it was offensive. You were warned already by DrMies to never use the term ever again , and yet you immediately and brazenly disregarded that You are on very thin ice here. Captain Eek ⚓ 23:06, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
imagine you made an edit to say...Arab–Israeli conflict and all people could see was a warning description saying, "NEVER CALL PEOPLE THAT NAME EVER AGAIN" you may as well be banned because people will only twinkle the **** out of anything you post anyway. the notice should reflect the offence. Verify references (talk) 01:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'd argue that the notice did reflect the problem. The warning template was a template warning about disruptive editing. While you may not have intended to be disruptive, its outcome was disruptive. An action that impedes the building of the encyclopedia, such as using a conversation stopping slur, is considered disruptive. Thus you were given a standard disruptive editing warning, with an addendum dealing with your specific action. Captain Eek ⚓ 04:10, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't worry too much about the incivility of calling someone a tard if the person in question is the mosque shooter. But yeah, Verify References, we supposedly aim for a more decorous writing style when we can manage it. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 07:04, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
If Verify Thinks that that Word is Ok then I think we Have a Boomerang Situation Jena (talk) 15:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Intriguingly, this user reminds me of VerifiedFixes (talk · contribs), whom some of you may remember, and who retired at about the time Verify references got started. Also similarly, Verify references has now retired. DlohCierekim 05:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Something that Beyond My Ken also noticed in the last , almost boomerang inducing, ANI filed by Verify. Captain Eek ⚓ 09:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- IMHO, if we so lack in an ability to collaborate collaboratively on a collaborative project, and if we hand out words that require oversight in our edit summaries, it is perhaps for the best if we retire from the field so to speak. DlohCierekim 05:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- As the user has "retired", I'd like to indef block them until they affirm they will not use offensive pejoratives in the future. DlohCierekim 06:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Innocent Conflict of Edits Issue Needs Ace Editor
Closing this as unwarranted. An administrator deleted a copyright violation and the editor who created it complained. Mrphilip has had the problem explained to them repeatedly by multiple other editors. Just an FYI for the OP, copy/pasting text from elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, as you've done here is also a copyright violation (without proper attribution). There's never a good reason to copy anything on Misplaced Pages. Paraphrase. There's a good tutorial from Purdue University linked on the warning template for copyright violations. As an aside, this is English Misplaced Pages, not US Misplaced Pages. Many editors here are not US citizens and their taxes do not support the US government. John from Idegon (talk) 00:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure) For that matter, many editors here are not Catholic and their tithes do not support the Pope, but what does that, or your comment re taxes, have to do with anything? EEngThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm working on my draft article for the NIH Sexual and Gender Minority Research Office which was finally submitted it for first review earlier today. This afternoon I improved there article with NASEM source material from last month and much of that work was lost to the ether. I don't see what I attempted to publish in the page history but I do see the +53 character reference citation correction made by some unknown party (to me at least). I have not hit any save button since only made attempts to recover my edits which where side by side with another version when I made a switch to vista editing and it all went kaboom. Please don't make me reinvent the wheel. I got a notification that my work was saved somewhere but I can't find it.Mrphilip (talk) 21:21, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Mrphilip: So what probably happened there was that someone made an edit while you were making an edit, and they published it before you did. When that happens, a page will open where at the top is the revision by the other user, and if you scroll all the way to the bottom is your version. That then lets you reconcile your version with the new version. If you have already left that page however, your content is likely gone, and there's not much an admin can do to save it, as your revision was saved on your computer's cache and not Misplaced Pages servers. It sucks to lose edits like that, I've been there. My advice is to save often, or work on the edit in your sandbox and then copy it over once its ready. Captain Eek ⚓ 22:24, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- If the edits aren't in the Edit History or are deleted edits, there is no way I know of to recover this content. Like the Captain says, this is the result of an edit conflict, when two editors are trying to edit the same page at the same time, and it happens frequently on noticeboards like ANI. You can cut & paste your edit if you are taken to an error page but after you've moved on from the page, the content is gone. Liz 23:28, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- is there a way we can ask for these conflict pages to be more visual edit friendly for future contributors? I like the left right portions but they can be disorienting when looked at with upper and lower text. Might it be possible for an algorithm to intercede and asses significance of conflict edits, which both could be meaty, but as in this case, fixing a reference date was given preference over 1,000+ characters. Shouldn't a draft article writer (specifically) be granted first veto power over the lessor edit, as opposed to the BOX WARNING SUGGESTING NOT TO HASTILY COPY AND PASTE all your work (which I should have done before hitting the visual button.) Or can we minimally improve the system to offer better advance notice of multiple users working on one project not as of yet approved for public viewing before either editor hits publish? Simple thoughts for preventing replication of efforts.23:46, 15 March 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrphilip (talk • contribs)
|answer=yes Mrphilip (talk) 00:35, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Competence issues
His draft was deleted Copyvio so he is User_talk:RHaworth#DELETION_SAME_DAY_AS_ARTICLE_FIRST_REVIEWED_BY_WIKI? yelling at User:RHaworth, complaining at the AfC Helpdesk and at Teahouse all lecturing experienced editors on how the site works. I reverted his post at Jytdog's talk. as that is a randomly inappropriate place to discuss his issues. WP:CIR Legacypac (talk) 05:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
User:Legacypac I posted on Jytdog's talk page unaware of his block. He left me this message suggesting I do just that thing when an article refers to something involving Health, which my article does. National Institute of Health Sexual and Gender Minority Research Office. I was asking for advice on quoting legislation verbiage from the 21st Century Cures Act of 2016. I did not discuss any other "issue" It might have been more helpful if you addressed the question raised instead of just deleting a credible query. I don't believe tasing for help suggests incompetence nor making others aware of unnecessary overly swift G12 deletion of a draft article when older versions of an article history might have lived on? Mrphilip (talk) 05:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
References: edit source
====== Thank you for contributing to Misplaced Pages. Remember that when adding content about health, please only use high-quality reliable sourcesas references. We typically use review articles, major textbooks and position statements of national or international organizations (There are several kinds of sources that discuss health: here is how the community classifies them and uses them). WP:MEDHOW walks you through editing step by step. A list of resources to help edit health content can be found here. The edit box has a built-in citation tool to easily format references based on the PMID or ISBN. We also provide style advice about the structure and content of medicine-related encyclopedia articles. The welcome page is another good place to learn about editing the encyclopedia. If you have any questions, please feel free to drop me a note. Jytdog (talk) 00:14, 10 May 2018 (UTC) ====== Mrphilip (talk) 05:59, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Jytdog is no longer an editor here. Legacypac (talk) 06:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Christchurch mosque shootings
There is currently an RFC ongoing about whether the suspects names can be included in the article (Talk:Christchurch mosque shootings#RfC about keeping suspect's/suspects' name in lead). One of the suspects names has been widely published and it is becoming difficult to keep it off the page. Considering this is a BLP concern is it possible to create a tempory edit filter to prevent the name bring added until we reach consensus at the talk page. More eyes would be useful in any case. AIRcorn (talk) 22:42, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
If this is not possible could we at least get an edit notice? AIRcorn (talk) 00:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I posted five good references. so long as it is worded appropriately there should be no problem. it's unlikely to cause problems because major international news outlets have already published the name. furthermore, it will become difficult to edit the page because they've started using the name in the headlines and the name is likely to appear in any new references anyway. the arguments against it were that by using the name will only grant power to the forces of evil. Verify references (talk) 01:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I would say the main argument against was WP:BLPCRIME (policy wise at least). AIRcorn (talk) 09:42, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
This has been interesting. The consensus is clear at the rfc. In fact if anything it is even clearer since posting this. And I say that as someone on the other side of it. This page is probably the most watched page in the encyclopaedia and BLP and consensus are supposed to be our most sacred tenants. Yet nothing. Maybe its a weekend thing. No one gives a shit about a mass murderer and its not like we are in danger of upsetting him anyway (he livestreamed it for fucks sake so is obviously up for attention). I know RFC is a bit of a hit and run process and I would not blame anyone given the massive shitfest the talkpage has become (someone running through with oneclickarchiver would be doing a huge favour - I feel too involved myself). Anyway the name has been prominent in the article for a while now and I haven't noticed any objections (its a pretty hard page to follow so apologies if I missed some) outside the RFC so it may as well just stay there unless someone feels in an enforcing mood. Not sure if this is an issue to be concerned about with other less obvious cases, but that may be something for another day. Anyway I will try to keep out the names of the other less prominent suspects for now. This can probably be closed. AIRcorn (talk) 09:42, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Does the RfC apply to the current events portal?
While the main thing here seems resolved... What about Portal:Current events/2019 March 15? Does the RfC apply there? If not, should there be one? Madness 13:13, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see why it wouldn't. ansh666 19:56, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Osanna M. Kazezian-Rosa' auto bio
Since the last week or so, the user User:Osanna M. Kazezian-Rosa has been trying to create an autobiography of herself. The page was deleted more than 4 times, and yet is being created. People have explained her about notability policy but she doesn't seem to have read it or understood it.
- Based on her talkpage, She seems to be a children's book author. Her nearby library decided to have a site with all their authors having links to a wiki page of their own(just the link). This user too has her page on that site and created a corresponding wiki page since she believes[REDACTED] to be a catalog, I genuinely believe its not vandalism, but a case of a misinformed user. But she does not seem to be responding or caring about the warnings at all.Daiyusha (talk) 05:02, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- She practices yoga and enjoys hiking in nature. EEng 11:41, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I used to practice yoga and still enjoy hiking in nature. I left her some more educational material. She still has a sandbox up that needs sourcing. DlohCierekim 04:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- She practices yoga and enjoys hiking in nature. EEng 11:41, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Transgender-related POV
Involved parties
- A145GI15I95 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Mooeena (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Statement
This user cannot separate constructive criticism and suggestions for changes to their pet project page from personal attacks. They take personal offense to editors who make suggestions that counter their agenda and argue constantly in talk pages that people who detransition, or "detrans people" as they call them, are oppressed by LGBT people as a whole, transgender people, and rogue political actors. The vast majority of their edits are dedicated to righting the wrong of detrans oppression or "spreading awareness" to their cause.
In addition, they seem to have developed a vendetta against me personally, and have accused me of interfering with discussions about Detransition for prejudiced, peosonal, or politically motivated reasons and attempted to get me banned from the topic. I find it suspect that this user keeps fixating on the fact that she believes me to be transgender in their ban claims, although I have told them multiple times that I am not.
- There's a lot here, so I'm linking an archived version of the entire discussion. The user seems to claim ownership over the article Detransition. They have deliberately misinterpreted multiple users' notices as personal attacks throughout the talk page, stealth canvassed other editors from Twitter to back up their point (including one who appears to be a sock), attempted to close a WP:MEDRS discussion because they believed that the article was being attacked for political motivations, and attempted to topic ban users who they believed were opposing their view of how the article should be:
- 14 March 2019 ...via WP:COI because they assumed I was transgender.
- 14 March 2019 ...via WP:NPOV because I was "gender essentialist on my talk page" and put a NPOV tag on the article.
- 14 March 2019 ...and User:Equivamp via dispute resolution for "doxxing" (posting a canvassing warning) and "destroying the article."
- 14 March 2019 Because I have been discussing the article in its talk page, this user has accused me of bullying, doxxing, false claims, and "anti-detrans" prejudice.
- 14 March 2019 As part of their grudge against me editing the article, they linked directly to me removing slurs from my talk page in their change summary for blanking warnings from other editors and an admin on their own talk page.
I believe that I have been behaving appropriately regarding this article and this user has become increasingly hostile towards me for continuing to hold this article to Misplaced Pages's standards. This user has proven that they cannot edit pages related to this topic responsibly and neutrally.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mooeena (talk • contribs)
Response
This complaint was filed moments ago here, under the same seemingly inappropriate title. I asked there why it was described as a transgender issue, when the topic is detransition (separate phenoms, separate communities). I'll ask again here, please, why frame their concern for a detrans topic as trans?
Mooeena's criticisms haven't been "constructive", they've been hyperbolic and smear-based. Nearly every comment on Talk:Detransition takes a stab either at editors or at the subject matter. From merely their statement above:
- Titling this entire section "transgender-related POV", when this is about detransition (a separate topic and separate community from trans).
- Calling the article " pet project", " agenda", and " cause".
- Using scare quotes in naming detrans people, and adding "as call them" (this is as detrans folk call themselves, and it's documented in news articles and around the web).
- Claiming that I argue detrans folk are oppressed by LGBT folk "as a whole".
- Denying the documented political suppression of detransition exists.
- Wiki-lawyering.
- Claiming that I've requested anyone's ban.
- Claiming that I continued ("fixated…multiple times") to believe they're trans after they said they weren't. And my concern is for their possible trans activism, not their gender identity.
- Claiming that I "claim ownership" over the article.
- Claiming that I "deliberately misinterpreted" anyone.
- Claiming that I "stealth canvassed other editors" (an admin found this untrue).
- Accusing me of sock-puppetry.
- Shaming me for filing a COI (as they
suggestedsuggested), and then an NPOV (as I was instructed by an admin from there). - Shaming me for calling out an attempt to dox (confirmed by an admin).
Mooeena enterred the Talk page with slurs against the detrans community and smears against editors:
- Using scare quotes in naming detransitioners (implying they don't exist or their lives don't matter).
- Claiming the detrans community isn't marginalized.
- Describing presence of more than one citation as "sin".
- Claiming that anyone has argued detransition to be "a common occurrence".
- Claiming authors for The Atlantic and The Seattle Stranger to be unreliable.
- Confusing detransition to be a "transgender issue" (they're separate communities, that's like conflating gay with trans).
- Claiming Tumblr and "individual accounts" (unsure what that means) are cited.
- Claiming the article "conflates" transphobia with trans regret (this is among the least cited concerns of detransitioners).
- Using scare quotes for trans regret (implying it never happens).
And that's just our first interaction. And Mooeena has continually claimed to wish to re-focus on content, while returning to smears.
Mooeena's stance seems to be of the all-too-common political motivation that acknowledgment of the plight of detrans folk could somehow be a threat to the plight of trans folk.
Other editors and I have communicated civilly and reached compromises. I've repeatedly stated aim to avoid pitting trans against detrans, but rather to present the topic of detransition fairly. I'd like to continue work in improving this article, without the stress of attacks, please. A145GI15I95 (talk) 06:11, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Discussion
- I looked at that archived talk page and the points of serious disagreement aren't obvious. Could we have more calmness and AGF in the discussion? This doesn't look like a battle of entrenched viewpoints so I'd like to hope the issues can be worked out. I could try to mediate a little bit tomorrow if that helps. I made an edit to the article (added mention of an old science fiction story to the "fiction" section) so maybe that makes me "involved", but I hadn't really heard of the detransition concept before, and my edit was quite far from any of the controversy. So I think I can be impartial. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 07:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm unsure of what is the actual problem here, there seems to be a lot of terms I'm not very familiar with. There seems to be disagrement between users but is it a ANI concern? I feel like this should be able to be solved some other way.★Trekker (talk) 03:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Having looked at the diffs linked, Mooeena's complaints seem valid. I didn't try to determine how true all of A145GI15I95's complaints were because the first few I looked for evidence of were either wrong or misleading.
Claiming that I continued ("fixated…multiple times") to believe they're trans after they said they weren't. And my concern is for their possible trans activism, not their gender identity.
You did in fact start a COI noticeboard post claiming that she is trans and another claiming that she is a gender essentialist.Claiming authors for The Atlantic and The Seattle Stranger to be unreliable.
I don't see where this happened. There is discussion on the talk page about the Atlantic/the Stranger, but it's someone else mentioning this, and no one says that the authors are unreliable. Is this discussion elsewhere?Titling this entire section "transgender-related POV", when this is about detransition (a separate topic and separate community from trans).
How is the article on detransition not a transgender-related topic?Shaming me for calling out an attempt to dox (confirmed by an admin).
This is valid. Doxing is bad. Canvassing for supporters via Twitter is also bad.
- So, A145GI15I95, unless you have diffs to support your list of complaints, you really oughta stop harassing Mooeena. Natureium (talk) 03:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The arbitration looks like it will be declined. I've read everything and I think the points of disagreement aren't obvious because of the nature of the topic, but setting those aside I believe the diffs provided by both users do show a problem with A145GI15I95's behaviour. One of the diffs they link was posted by a sock to Mooeena's talk page, the other they link it's actually A145GI15I95 who takes it personally after Mooeena pointed out possible twitter canvassing. I would support a topic ban, possibly short-term in order to encourage them to be productive in other areas of the project, or at least a short-term interaction ban, for A145GI15I95 based on the provided diffs, if they don't accept to change their behaviour voluntarily. SportingFlyer T·C 04:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Natureium, to answer you:
I didn't try to determine how true all of A145GI15I95's complaints were because the first few I looked for evidence of were either wrong or misleading.
Please let me clarify, and let me know if I can clarify further.You did in fact start a COI noticeboard post claiming that she is trans and another claiming that she is a gender essentialist.
My concern is that Mooeena may be letting her personal stance on gender politics interfere with the editing of this delicate topic. I presumed Mooeena to be trans due to the five user-boxes employing gender-essentialist language on her user-page (most of which she's now removed). I've already said there's nothing wrong with being trans or gender essentialist. But detransition is not a gender essentialist topic. Furthermore, detrans folk are politically where trans folk were a decade ago: struggling for recognition to receive neglected legal and medical services. There are many activists online who wrongly see detransitioners as a political threat to trans rights. Mooeena has repeatedly denied the existence of detransitioners and the detrans community on talk pages and edit logs. That is troubling. I attempted to reason with her, but she told me to file a complaint. So I filed the COI (where I wrongly guessed she was trans, I was corrected, I apologized, and I explained my concern is for politics not identity). I was instructed by an admin on COI that my concern is more appropriately NPOVN, so I moved my concern there.Claiming authors for The Atlantic and The Seattle Stranger to be unreliable—I don't see where this happened. There is discussion on the talk page about the Atlantic/the Stranger, but it's someone else mentioning this, and no one says that the authors are unreliable. Is this discussion elsewhere?
The link again is here. The Atlantic author is Jesse Singal; the Stranger author is Katie Herzog. The claim that they are unreliable is indeed written by Mooeena.How is the article on detransition not a transgender-related topic?
To say or imply that detrans folk are a kind of trans folk is like saying trans folk are a kind of gay folk. They're all related categories, but they're separate groups with different challenges and strengths. And there is a documented history of trans activists harassing detrans folk, hence my concern that no such thing should happen here (as it already has from other editors on the detrans talk page).Doxing is bad. Canvassing for supporters via Twitter is also bad.
Thank you for acknowledging the attempt to dox (by a third party, not Mooeena) was bad. Please hear me, though, when I say again that I didn't canvas, as another admin confirmed, and I'd like please not to need to defend myself against this charge every day.…unless you have diffs to support your list of complaints, you really oughta stop harassing Mooeena.
I can answer more questions if you like. But respectfully, I'm not harassing her. And the amount of time I've had to put into writing these defenses, it feels like the reverse.- SportingFlyer, to answer you:
…the points of disagreement aren't obvious because of the nature of the topic…
I can answer further questions, if you've any.One of the diffs they link was posted by a sock to Mooeena's talk page
Which diff do you mean? I've employed no sock. If someone else is socking, it's not I. Please, I've had to re-explain this repeatedly. Another user attempted to dox me and accused me of canvassing. Someone else reported it to an admin, who immediately redacted the dox. I thanked them privately and asked advice. They instructed I change my name, and assured this would reduce my problems. However, Mooeena has not let this go, she continues to accuse me of canvassing, and since the name-change she's accusing me of sockery. And now you seem to say also that I appear to be a sock, unless I've misread you. I've only followed my name-change instructions.…it's actually A145GI15I95 who takes it personally…
My impression has been that Mooeena has taken something personally against me. I linked the new Detransition article to a handful of LGBT info-boxes and articles, and Mooeena seemed to follow me and unlink nearly all of them.- Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 05:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Mooeena removed several userboxes recently, but I do not see which ones she removed which were gender-related.
- You claim Mooeena "repeatedly denied the existence of detransitioners and the detrans community on talk pages and edit logs." I have not seen a diff yet which shows this to be the case. Please either provide diffs or apologize.
- Upon investigation, Jesse Singal and Katie Herzog are journalists. From the diff you posted, it makes it seem as if Mooeena has decided to randomly ignore these, but they provided a helpful response here: Talk:Detransition#NPOV.
- You need to stop assuming everyone is accusing you of being a sock whenever a sock is mentioned. There's a pattern forming here. The diff you linked was posted by a sock to Mooeena's talk page, so I have to discredit it.
- Mooeena is within their right to unlink the links per WP:CYCLE. SportingFlyer T·C 08:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- There was a subsection statement and a subsection response. I have added a subsection discussion just below. Because of a possible intent to comment about the said statement and its response. Pldx1 (talk) 11:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Follow-up: I have a problem with the first subsection, i.e. "Involved parties". I already know this was a part of an Arbcom filling, but this doesn't make sense here. To be suppressed or to be neutralized by adding User:Mooeena as a party ? Pldx1 (talk) 11:13, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Mooeena removed several userboxes recently, but I do not see which ones she removed which were gender-related.
The five gender-politics–related user-boxes here say: "This user identifies as a woman", "This user prefers to be referred to using feminine gender pronouns", "This user identifies as a lesbian", "This user identifies as a girl gamer", "This user identifies as a gaymer". Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with gender essentialism, and I've apologized for possibly sounding as if I suggested that such stance might be unacceptable. My intention was to voice concern that such politics might preclude an NPOV.You claim Mooeena "repeatedly denied the existence of detransitioners and the detrans community on talk pages and edit logs." I have not seen a diff yet which shows this to be the case. Please either provide diffs or apologize.
Mooeena began this conversation with scare quotes and suggestions that the detrans community doesn't exist or doesn't matter. She wrote here: "…seem to argue that 'detransitioner' is a marginalized gender identity…" And here: "This article mentions 'anti-detrans' activists… The 'expert' cited…" Detransitioners are indeed a marginalized community, and this was already sourced in the article. So why suggest otherwise? I brought to her attention here that the use of scare quotes is unnecessary, and that denial of detrans folk would be inappropriate, but she didn't reply. When she used these again, I asked outright here if she intends for these to be scare quotes, but she again didn't reply to this concern. She also wrote here "I am gay and am close to many queer and trans people of all sorts…" Hopefully this was well-intentioned, but it could sound like the old "I'm not racist, I have a black friend". I tried politely to voice this concern, but this seems to've been ignored too.You need to stop assuming everyone is accusing you of being a sock whenever a sock is mentioned…
If the accusations of sockery in the two filings Mooeena has reported against me (here and here) weren't meant to be directed at me, than I've misunderstood. An unknown editor also reported me for supposed sockery amidst all these conversations. I apologize if my tone has become defensive when attempting to work with Mooeena, but she began her NPOV complaint on the article's talk page with words that appeared to show she herself lacks NPOV, and I've since been hit with a doxxing attempt, a smear campaign (including Mooeena refusing to drop the false claims of canvassing), and yet another editor (granted, not Mooeena) equating detransition with gay-conversion therapy, so it's been a rough week here. I'd like to mention that, of the three open reports (here, here, this page we're on now), the tone of the responses have differed greatly ("keep talking, report is premature", crickets, and this discussion now).Upon investigation, Jesse Singal and Katie Herzog are journalists. From the diff you posted, it makes it seem as if Mooeena has decided to randomly ignore these, but they provided a helpful response here.
I'm sorry, but I don't see where she where she addressed this concern. It appears that Mooeena decried these journalists for reporting stories that activists who wrongly see detrans folk as a threat to trans politics attempt to suppress online. And to be clear, I'm not accusing Mooeena of being activist, I'm asking if her politics might outweigh her POV.The diff you linked was posted by a sock to Mooeena's talk page, so I have to discredit it.
Again, please, which diff I linked was posted by a sock?Mooeena is within their right to unlink the links per WP:CYCLE.
Yes, but it could be, as you say, a pattern, which is what I've asked Mooeena to consider.There was a subsection statement and a subsection response…
andFollow-up…
I don't understand what the entries above by User:Pldx1 are intended to mean, or if I'm asked to respond.- Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 18:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- There are some serious WP:AGF issues in your above post. None of your diffs support Mooeena calling you a sock, and in fact Mooeena herself said she never accused you of being a sock. Mooeena did purge several of her userboxes recently, but she did not purge the major ones relating to gender issues. I don't see any problem with her behaviour, in fact I don't see a single "smear" as you've described. I see a general problem with you assuming she is against your point of view, and your attempts to own the article by accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you from not having a neutral point of view. I apologise you've been doxxed by a third party, but that's beside the point on this very specific issue - Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort, and based on the evidence provided above, you are not editing collaboratively in this area. (The diff you provided which was originally posted by a sock was .) SportingFlyer T·C 22:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
The diff you provided which was originally posted by a sock was
Thank you for specifying the link that I mistakenly pasted above to a conversation between Mooeena and a different user. I apologize for this error on my part. The diff I meant to link above to show where Mooeena told me to file is here ("if you believe that I am acting maliciously towards you, feel free to request…").None of your diffs support Mooeena calling you a sock, and in fact Mooeena herself said she never accused you of being a sock.
The two links again are here and here, where she wrote "including one who appears to be a sock". I read that to be claiming or suggesting that the other person is somehow my sock, or that I'm his sock.I don't see a single "smear"
One smear is that she has four times repeated the accusation of canvassing (here, here, here, and here), which was found to be untrue, and three of which were stated after I asked her to stop.I see a general problem with you assuming she is against your point of view
I feel this whole issue has expanded far beyond where it needs to be. Please see that it began simply when Mooeena tagged the article NPOV, and she began its linked conversation using language that itself lacked NPOV (scare quotes, denial of detrans community's marginalization, claims of Tumblr citations, characterizing valid citations she dislikes as sins, calling The Atlantic and Seattle Stranger unreliable, claiming conflation of negative emotions with transition regret). I asked her to recognize her language itself could be read as not NPOV, and she didn't reply. I absolutely understand Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort, and I'm grateful for that. I believe I've been able to collaborate with other editors, including those with whom I've disagreed and compromised. Examples include dropping my objection to inclusion of the WPATH/Danker study; and continuing to meet the months-long demand of those supporting the Medref warning, working to find and include more and more medical sources (up from zero now to twelve, though those weren't all my additions). This long week of attacks from multiple editors has stretched my forbearance (and to be sure, I can't blame Mooeena for the other editors' wrongs, I just wish to give context). My concern has been whether Mooeena has an NPOV on this topic, based on her language choices, as stated in my first parenthetical of this paragraph (scare quotes, existence denial, Tumblr, sins, sources, and conflation). Thank you, A145GI15I95 (talk) 02:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)- User:Pldx1, I have added myself to the Involved Parties section. I had originaly posted this to the wrong noticeboard, and the formatting is simply an artifact from that.
- I've been a bit quiet, but I think these responses speak for themselves. A145GI15I95 is projecting their own NPOV agenda onto other users. I have stuck with the research that is notable and reliably reported on, and this user has become increasingly upset that I don't go along with their editing agenda. I am not an activist, but this user consistently appeals to the community of
detrans folk have blogged, vlogged, and formed discussion groups online and in-person to support themselves
in order to argue that it doesn't matter that the topic is understudied and undercited. They seem to firmly believe that every person who has exhibited any sort of gender fluidity is exactly the same as the users on the detransition subreddits that they belong to, and any removal from those specific people's experiences is some kind of attack. They're trying very hard to evangelize about these subreddits in Misplaced Pages, a place where that doesn't belong. Threads (like this one) balloon as they try to argue their position into notability. I would support a topic ban from at least Detransition and perhaps other gender-related articles because they have shown that they cannot play well with others on this topic. They've accused me and other users multiple times of claiming "detrans lives don't matter" for holding the statistics on the article to Misplaced Pages's standards. That's not something to be accused lightly. That shows a deep level of attachment, and I honestly think it would be better for their peace of mind to step away. - As for "smears," the accusation of canvassing was not found to be untrue. Your previous username and a link to a tweet where you canvassed were simply censored for your privacy. That admin did not make a statement on the authenticity of User:Equivamp's claims. In fact, I found two additional instances of you asking people off-wiki who share your point of view to back you up on the talk page. (Archived links available to admins upon request.) That is canvassing. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 05:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- From that post it sounds like if I wanted to know more about detransition, I'd be better off reading the subreddits than the Misplaced Pages article. I'm not sure what to conclude from that. I do see a bunch of stuff reverted on MEDRS grounds. If that's for medical info ("the recommended dose of hormone X is Y milligrams per pound of body weight") then MEDRS should be adhered to, but if it's about non-medical (e.g. sociological) aspects, then sticking to MEDRS tilts the article to the "medical point of view", which is not neutral (see medicalization). I haven't had the energy to look much further into this (might have more time in a few days). 173.228.123.166 (talk) 07:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Why won't Mooeena answer my concerns (scare quotes, denial of marginalized community, claim of Tumblr citation, characterization of contributions as sins, attempt to discredit reliable sources, and claim of conflation), please? If her statement at the top of this page started instead
…or "trans people" as they call them…
, we'd question her POV. Instead she admits she wants me banned. I've not called her an activist, I've noted her wish to suppress certain studies that disagree with her politics is shared with anti-detrans activists. WP:PRIVACY instructs I "do not confirm or deny the accuracy of the information" of her now admitted attempt to stalk/oppo/dox me. I can respond privately to admins. A145GI15I95 (talk) 07:34, 18 March 2019 (UTC)- I think most of us know that there is such a thing as a trans community. It never would have occurred to me that there was also a detrans community or anti-detrans activists. Mooeena may have used scare quotes based on a similar reaction. Do the activists consider de-transers to be traitors to a cause, or what? If someone detransitions and becomes a transphobe, I can see them taking flak for it; but if they just go back to whatever they were doing before transitioning, why would the trans community care? Are they satisfied if you re-transition after de-transitioning? Do they hate everyone who transitions an even number of times (so they're back in the gender they started with) but like anyone who has transitioned an odd number of times? Does anyone ever actually transition more than twice? I think it's reasonable to ask for some kind of sourcing for claims on such topics. That said, if there's not much mainsteam sourcing I personally don't mind seeing stuff from less prominent outlets that might bother the harder core RS zealots around here. Our readers are adults and we shouldn't worry about warping their minds by presenting diverse viewpoints on stuff like this. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 09:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I hadn't addressed some of your concerns I didn't feel I needed to continually answer for the specifics of a post I made after one read through the article and before joining the discussion (and frankly they came in a very long list) but I'll do so now for the sake of other editors not having to dig through diffs.
Scare quotes:
"detransitioner" and "detrans" are novel terms that I and most other editors had not heard before, so I put them in quotes. The term seems to be the self-identified term for a community, which is obviously fine, but most of the sources I have seen do not contain people self-identifying as detrans, which I believe is an important distinction.Denial of marginalized community:
I had never heard of detransitioners before, and the article seemed to be about a concept, not a community of people. I am not, of course, saying that that community doesn't exist and that their feelings aren't valid, but that the article doesn't seem like it's about the community.- {{tq|Claim of Tumblr citation:} The Katie Herzog article references a tumblr blog with around a hundred followers to reference the number of detransitioners, which seemed to me on my first reading of the wiki page to be too small an online community to be notable.
Characterization of contributions as sins:
I apologized for my wording right after you objected to it because I saw that it could be construed as aggressive. I'm not sure what else you want here.Attempt to discredit reliable sources:
On my first reading of the wiki page, the Katie Herzog and Jesse Singal articles stuck out to me because those authors were well known (Though I had mixed up Katie Herzog with Katie Hopkins at the time) among the transgender community for their anti-trans rhetoric, but it would clearly be hypocritical of me to remove them because I disagree with the authors' politics. I haven't, because on the many read-throughs I've done since two weeks ago, I realized that those are really the two best news sources there are on the topic.Claim of conflation:
See discussion here. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 17:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm also not doxxing you. I have given no identifying details that may identify you off-wiki or irl, just noted a fact for the benefit of qualified admins who know how to confirm claims while protecting your privacy. I don't want anybody to harass you off-wiki. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 17:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Why won't Mooeena answer my concerns (scare quotes, denial of marginalized community, claim of Tumblr citation, characterization of contributions as sins, attempt to discredit reliable sources, and claim of conflation), please? If her statement at the top of this page started instead
- Let us try to do our own home work. First of all, page Detransition was build by 480 , among them 196 edits ( bytes) by and 6 edits ( bytes) by . Among the last 6, the first two (2019-03-02) are "POV tag", the other four are suppressing citations "en masse", without detailed discussion. Saying
source contains a slur, isn't noteworthy, and doesn't contribute to the article
when removing , is not an honest way of proceeding. Each of them contributes, i.e. is clearly abouttothe topic of the article, while "contains a slur" are only weasel words: which reference among the seven contains which alleged slur ? Moreover, the question is not if you like or not what the references are saying, the question to discuss is sources or not sources, i.e. should we repeat what the references are saying with our own voice, or only quote the reference as what was said by such and such and maybe quote another reference saying otherwise ? Pldx1 (talk) 10:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)This user is an Angel.
About infoboxen. User: Mooeena uses these two infoboxen. This amounts to assert that it exists cats that are also angels. Such a strong philosophical assertion should have been backed by strong sources, but I don't see them. When asking my own cat for a second opinion, then undisclosed_possessive_pronoun_for_my_own_cat answer was: any angel would have guessed that usingThis user is a cat. The biggest sins
in a complaint is boomerang-prone, while any cat would have known that usinghis pet project
to describe an article about gender identification is only horrible and disheartening. Pldx1 (talk) 10:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)- You have a good point. I have tried to keep out of the article space until the BRD cycle is concluded. I intend for the discussion to come to a consensus before I move in and make changes on the article.
- I made an honest mistake in that I only saw one added reference, which I hope you can see why I found it problematic. Said adding user was a sock who immediately proceeded to post slurs against multiple groups on my talk page, so I didn't consider the rest of the edit in good faith once I had noticed my mistake. If some of the other sources that he added would actually contribute the article, I have no problem with them being added back.
- It's true that the phrase
The biggest sins
is aggressive. I recognize that, and I apologized for my wording right after I said it, and here I'll apologize again. - I would contest that {tq|pet project} is disheartening, but I will apologize for that too. I consider creating articles for underrepresented woman firsts my pet project. That doesn't invalidate the subject, but it also doesn't mean that I get upset when other people make suggestions. Mooeena ● 💌 ● ✒️ ● ❓ 17:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Persistent vandalism by Tnypr
Persistent vandalism and edit warring. Last time, this user continually added unsourced year and mislead the chronology to the James Blunt singles "High", "Goodbye My Lover" and "Wisemen". He is still changing the release year and chronology. I've also request a protection but is denied it. The user has been warned multiple times in this case in his talk page. He is acting on these page now. See the link for his recent disruption:
"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/887271432". 51.75.95.140 (talk) 11:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
User Nelatti
User Nelatti (talk · contribs)has been first informed, then warned and finally blocked — three times — for insisting on adding unsourced and interpretive content. The user is just as difficult to work with in the Commons — I know it is separate project, but it bears witness on the editor's attitude of not playing by the rules. My gratitude to the admin who has patiently monitored this case so far. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:21, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- To add some meat on the bones of this ANI report, Nelatti has added tons of original research at List of South African slang words, for instance. Though we don't censor, I think the latter example is tonally questionable: "...a polite way to say you need to shit as soon as possible." The bulk of this user's contributions seem to be editorial in nature, pulled from his own experience or knowledge rather than sourced material. Efforts to convince him to add references have not been successful. See this discussion from 2017. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Problem with adding information to article
I wanted to add information concerning book written by Barbara Engelking and Jan Grabowski called "Dalej jest noc. Losy Żydów w wybranych powiatach okupowanej Polski". Recently Piotr Gontarczyk (professional historian) gave interviews with Polish Press Agency and weekly magazine "Sieci" in which he pointed out some mistakes that the authors made and addressed exact evidence to backup his arguments. One of the major pointed mistake is blaming Blue Police (which was not allowed to ghetto) for the crimes done by Jewish police inside Jewish ghetto in Bochnia (this case is well documented in files from Samuel Frish's criminal case).
Opinion of Gontarczyk was highly publicized in Polish media including the biggest TV channels, newspapers, radio, Internet.
The first time I added that information (to the articles about Barbara Engelking and Jan Grabowski) it was removed and I was told that the source was not good enough in some quite unusual manner of two tables with exclamation mark: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Bluffer8
Then I changed the source to the following ones:
- https://afaae.com/poland/yes-ladies-and-gentlemen-this-is-a-new-school-but-not-the-research-but-the-deception-of-the-holocaust/
- https://www.polskieradio.pl/321/1222/Artykul/2275685,Piotr-Gontarczyk-zarzuca-publikacji-Centrum-Badan-nad-Zaglada-Zydow-naukowa-mistyfikacje
and my update was removed again. I asked the editor Icewhiz (talk) about what was wrong and got the answer: "Poor source, badly written, and a from a source with a rather extreme POV".
- Link to the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Icewhiz#Controversies
In the same discussion I gave him many alternative sources from Polish TV, radio, Internet, newspapers and German media (newspaper Dziennik Polska-Europa-Świat owned by Axel Springer SE), and asked for opinion. At this point to the discussion joined the editor Volunteer Marek (talk), they had some vivid conversation and here are the arguments that Icewhiz gave:
- - Polish government was considering implementing law which would that supposed to end up "Polish death camp" controversy,
- - The law was only a project and was no implemented, but for Icewhiz that case it is good enough to say that Poland tries to impose, what he calls, "Holocaust law",
- - Because of this nonexistent "Holocaust law" Polish sources "are unreliable on the topic of Holocaust history".
- - The situation in Poland is similar to the situation in Russia - "state control or repression" and no free speech basically.
And in the last section Icewhiz said:
- - Source of German owned newspaper Dziennik are also not allowed because: "All these sources, even those critical of PiS, fall under reach of the >>Holocaust law<<"
Link to the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Icewhiz#Controversies
Maybe these arguments would make sence if Poland was totalitarian regime without freedom of speach and trying to impose their own false propaganda, and I was trying to add this lying propaganda into Misplaced Pages's article. But all I want to add is just well documented and backup criticism of a book done by a professional historian documented by dozen of sources.
It feels like Icewhiz's opinion is a pure form of antipolonism and censorship based on offensive, false and biased arguments that are hard to understand (vide fantasies about made up "Holocaust law" and ban on Polish sources based on subjective and offensive opinions). Apart from that there are plenty of sources based on Polish newspaper in the Misplaced Pages and they are also allowed in the article I wanted to update - here are examples from the article about Jan Grabowski:
- https://www.rp.pl/Konflikt-Polska-Izrael/180229915-Polski-historyk-Jan-Grabowski-ostrzega-Izrael-przed-dialogiem-z-Polska.html
- https://www.biznesistyl.pl/kultura/oblicza-kultury/5829_.html
- "Ale Historia: Prof. Jan Grabowski: Pomagaliśmy Niemcom zabijać Żydów", Gazeta Wyborcza, 17 March 2018
This whole case is example of censorship based on biases and wrong information - some updates of Misplaced Pages's articles are banned because of made up reasons. Please help me to add to Misplaced Pages the information about the arguments Piotr Gontarczyk (professional historian) used to point out mistakes from the book.
Bluffer8 (talk) 14:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- The place to have this discussion is at the article talk page or RSN. Poland's "Holocaust Law" curtailed free speech in Polish media on the Holocaust (see article in Index on Censorship and very wide coverage on this). Adding Gontarczyk's opinions from a radio appearance to a BLP is more than questionable given that:
per academic source Finally I will note that most of Bluffer8's 52 edits to Misplaced Pages revolve around Gontarczyk raising some serious questions.Icewhiz (talk) 15:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)"Gontarczyk's work represents a highly rationalized version of the ethno-nationalist approach, legitimizing anti-Jewish violence as national self defense, based on the perception of Jews not as a group included in the Polish nation but as an "alien and harmful nation""
Icewhiz words that "Finally I will note that most of Bluffer8's 52 edits to Misplaced Pages revolve around Gontarczyk raising some serious questions" are clearly a manipulation. I have not done even one successful edit concerning Gontarczyk - all my Gontarczyk related edits have been deleted and one cannot count discussion about that deletions as "edits to Misplaced Pages revolve around Gontarczyk".
What I would like to add to Misplaced Pages are concrete arguments of professional historian, based on well documented files from Samuel Frish's criminal case. Contrary to what Icewhiz says Poland is not a regime and there is freedom of speech in Poland - the best proof of that is that the book (we are talking about) has been published in Poland (and as far as I know - in Poland only).
One can find in Internet any source that fits into its thesis that slams any person or any country (in example Gontarczyk, Poland, etc.). But this cannot undermine that Piotr Gontarczyk is well known, respected, professional historian employed in history research institute and his arguments are backed up by solid evidence.
Bluffer8 (talk) 19:20, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Edits to 3 articles adding Gontarczyk, reverted by a number of users, and discussions of said edits (for some odd reason on my talk page, and not on BLP/n or the article's talk). This prior edit to Jedwabne pogrom is instructive - adding a paragraph denying (the mainstream academic view in all countries) Polish responsibility for the massacre and burning of Jews in a barn - sourced to a Polish-Canadian YouTube channel.Icewhiz (talk) 19:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I do not know what is wrong with adding testimony of living witness of Jedwabne pogrom (prior edit) unless one has problem with information that do not fit into his particular point of view - but this is not how Misplaced Pages should work.
In the link to Jedwabne pogrom that Icewhiz gave (prior edit) there is not a single word about Piotr Gontarczyk. Please note that Icewhiz manipulates again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluffer8 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
If one submits the following sentence in Google or Duckduckgo search engine:
- "piotr gontarczyk" "piotra gontarczyka" site:wikipedia.org
then it is clear that there are plenty of references to Piotr Gontarczyk and his work within Misplaced Pages and much, much more in other sites. If Piotr Gontarczyk is so evil, as Icewhiz says, then why is he referred so many times.
Bluffer8 (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Considering these appear to be the diffs that have started this, and considering the text appears to be the same, this raises large WP:BLP and WP:NPOV issues. Reliable sourcing aside, the information does not even appear specifically related to any of the articles, apart from the fact they seem to have the opposite point of view. SportingFlyer T·C 08:59, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Could you please explain me what exactly WP:BLP and WP:NPOV issues does it raise? I could change the form of the article update.
- This information is not just the opposite point of view - it proves serious mistakes found in the book. This information is related to the articles - it shows the controversies that authors/book raises and there are plenty of similar cases in Misplaced Pages (articles about authors) with proper sections which address controversies in the way I would like to do it - here are examples:
- Bluffer8 (talk) 19:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- For instance, on the Grabowski article, the controversy from Gontarczyk has already been given due weight in the diff of the article you linked under the book's heading. Splitting it out into a separate section overstates the level of the controversy. Also, the fact you're saying it "proves serious mistakes found in the book" is not a neutrao position to be taking for these edits. Removing the topic completely from the analysis, a historian published a book and received criticism from another historian in regards to the book. That's all this needs to be, especially given the contentious nature of the topic, and this has been already adequately represented in that article. SportingFlyer T·C 22:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I cannot see exactly where can you see "the controversy from Gontarczyk" in the article about Grabowski - he is not mentioned there even single time (I think he was mentioned but someone "updated" the article). Could you please point it directly? How can you say that this topic "has been already adequately represented in that article" if Gontarczyk arguments are not even mentioned.
- If you look at the article into section "Dalej jest noc":
- then you will find positive and subjective opinion/flattery about the book from historian Jacek Chrobaczyński. I completely cannot understand why I am banned from adding (into the same section or the new one) scientifically based criticism of the book, done by professional historian? And yes - according to Gontarczyk's word he found some serious mistakes, which are well documented and well described. In Misplaced Pages it is common practice to add criticism concerning books/authors - I gave examples:
- If the source is right (it does not come from totalitarian regime where there is no free speech), if the author is right (he is a professional historian employed in well known history research institute) and the topic has not been described yet then what is the problem?
- I hope we will reach the compromise here - which could be adding the Gontarczyk's opinion into "Dalej jest noc" section of the article about Jan Grabowski and creating "Controversy" section for the article about Barbara Engelking.
- Bluffer8 (talk) 00:37, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I just noticed Dalej jest noc has its own article where Gontarczyk's opinion appears. The book on Grabowski's main page links to Dalej jest noc, and has a sentence or two about the criticism it received. I would suggest not adding the Gostarczyk opinion back to any of the pages and instead focusing on Dalej jest noc, though I think what's currently on that page is good enough. In any case, this seems to be more of a content dispute than anything actionable at ANI. SportingFlyer T·C 01:52, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- For me it looks like you are trying to stop adding of important Gontarczyk criticism of the book (and the fact that the book has been criticized) - because some other, older Gontarczyk's opinions are outside Misplaced Pages, in the book (could you please show me where exactly have you found it?). And at the same time you do not even allow to mention (in the article) that the book has been criticized in mass media and to inform why. I am not satisfied with that answer and I do not agree with this approach - I gave enough examples of the book criticism (in Misplaced Pages's articles) to see that double standards and censorship are applied here.
- It looks like a group of editors usurp and owned the article, and disagrees on any changes because it ruins the point of view they try to convey through the article. One can see that to stop the article updates, Misplaced Pages users are flooded with arguments (sometime absurd - vide regime in Poland or "ethno-nationalist" Gontarczyk) and that every bigger update to certain articles are immediately removed by the same editors.
- It this is your final opinion, then I will proceed further with my doubts concerning the article update. Thank you for your time.
- Bluffer8 (talk) 16:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I just noticed Dalej jest noc has its own article where Gontarczyk's opinion appears. The book on Grabowski's main page links to Dalej jest noc, and has a sentence or two about the criticism it received. I would suggest not adding the Gostarczyk opinion back to any of the pages and instead focusing on Dalej jest noc, though I think what's currently on that page is good enough. In any case, this seems to be more of a content dispute than anything actionable at ANI. SportingFlyer T·C 01:52, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Canadian IP socks
50.115.180.226 is another Canadian IP sock that is doing disruptive editing. There has been quite a few of these. Last night, I needed my talk page protected. It might be time to put Mark Bourrie under page protection. These socks have targeted my talk page and that entry in an outing campaign. I suspect it's one obsessed person. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 15:50, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTHERE for User:Stevenhksar
- PCCW (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Hong Kong Telecom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Stevenhksar (talk · contribs)
There was an ongoing RfC for the disputed edit in Talk:PCCW, but he just not able to understand English and policy. Admin please have a look on his blanking of the section of the article. Matthew hk (talk) 17:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- This looks like a WP:PAID relationship with the subject of the article:. That diff is not really good communication either: bad english and shouting when not absolutely necessary.Lurking shadow (talk) 17:33, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- There is a longer communications in User talk:Stevenhksar, which he blanked it all, after receiving ANI notice. I can use Cantonese/Chinese to communicate with him, but it is no point since this is English wikipedia. He also preformed bold merge of PCCW Mobile and CSL Mobile, but since he blanked that section of his user talk, i assumed he read that section and "understand" it should follow WP:merge. But for how hard i communicate, he still did not provide valid reason of cut a section of the article to another, or just blank it. It is not the matter which direct parent company that business division Cascade (did it ever equal to PCCW Engineering) was, it was the matter of keeping a brief section for the second-tier subsidiary of a company PCCW or not. He want to c&p to intermediate holding company Hong Kong Telecom, i disagree, i started WP:RfC for him, telling him internal email cannot be used in[REDACTED] as a reference, and he still not able to understand it and do his stuff again and again. Matthew hk (talk) 17:40, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- As a note. After this ANI was opening, he still posting internal email as well as section blanking. He clearly unable to understand. Matthew hk on public computer (talk) 08:27, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Shakil9600
- Shakil9600 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Bajpara High School (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Draft:Bajpara High School (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
The concern I have regarding this user is that they are consistently removing the R2 speedy deletion tag on the mainspace version of the page (1st page link) after I had moved the page to draftspace (2nd page link). I have sent them messages asking them to be patient with the deletion of the mainspace article and edit the draftspace version instead, however they have ignored my pleas and continued working on the page in mainspace without even acknowledging the version in draftspace (with the exception of the single submission without further improvement). I was originally going to send the page to AfD, but decided against it favoring a redirect per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. Obviously, this attempt failed. I just want to see to it that this user acknowledges that their work is still present in the draftspace and edit that version instead. Jalen D. Folf (talk) 19:43, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- User is clearly unsure how Misplaced Pages works. They want the page deleted yet they continue to remove the deletion templates. I left a message on their talk page telling them what was going on, because they left messages on the talk page on the redirect's talk page. I don't think they are acting maliciously.--Breawycker (talk to me!) 20:00, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) not sure it is log out edit or not, 101.206.168.129 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) just restart the article from the redirect, and blanking Draft:Bajpara High School, effectively cut and paste move to revert the drafting (see Misplaced Pages:Drafts#During new page review, it is legit to do so). Matthew hk (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- BTW it looks like logout edit or meat sock, since the ip also edited in Uthali Union, an article created by Shakil9600. As a separate issue, Afd had started at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bajpara High School. Just there is no problem of blanking again. Matthew hk (talk) 21:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Matthew hk: Thank you for making the AfD. Should have done that myself. I'm surprised I haven't heard back from them about them about the whole speedy deletion thing. Wasn't trying to imply what the IP was doing was wrong was just trying to ask the user if that was them. Probably shouldn't have used that template.Breawycker (talk to me!) 21:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- BTW it looks like logout edit or meat sock, since the ip also edited in Uthali Union, an article created by Shakil9600. As a separate issue, Afd had started at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bajpara High School. Just there is no problem of blanking again. Matthew hk (talk) 21:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
8chan link - revdel needed
Jürgen Eissink's clearly not going to be blocked for a good faith action, even if one deemed by the community to be inappropriate; of note, they had no objections to the use of revdel. Revdel is done; that was the initial reason for this post. Please disperse, there's nothing to see here. ;) (non-admin closure) Madness 19:34, 17 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Jürgen Eissink (talk · contribs) included a link to 8chan post by the Christchurch shooter in an edit summary here: . Should it be revision deleted? Otherwise, it seems that the article page history is used to promote the manifesto. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:48, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I was not promoting the manifesto (I haven't even seen it myself), but I was just providing source to my edit, an edit that had been undone before, concerning the fact that the manifesto was not published on 8chan (which is not possible, one cannot post documents there). I have no problem with deleting the edit summary, although I don't really see a reason to do so. My point was the difference between the manifesto being posted on 8chan (which it wasn't) or linked to on 8chan, and that difference should be acknowledged. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2019 (UTC).
- I'm not sure what the policy is, but I'd invoke WP:IAR regardless and remove it. Many - most? - news organisations have intentionally not published it. SportingFlyer T·C 22:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Revdel needed. In addition, user should be blocked or admonished the same way as the users who tried to insert links to that massacre video earlier. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 22:20, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- If an admin is looking at this, this edit should also be probably be rev-deleted: . Someone inserted the link to the manifesto into the body of the article. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've removed the edits. I'm not going to block or admonish Jürgen Eissink, because I'm sure they won't add the link again. Also, more admin eyes on this stuff please. There's some nasty stuff lurking in the background. -- zzuuzz 22:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- I am truly shocked by the call – even after I gave my intention – for a block of my account. I thank zzuuzz for his or her moderation. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 22:38, 16 March 2019 (UTC).
Please read the banner on the top of this page: "Do not report breaches of privacy, outing, etc. on this highly visible page – instead click here". By posting a request for revdel on this board you only gave the link more views. --Pudeo (talk) 11:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Uncivil interactions
Reading the policies may seem senselessand leave an editor bored,
but "DA ROOLS" aren't rules, they're records of consensus,
and should not be ignored.
(Editor indefinitely blocked, see thread and user talk page for explanation and instructions.) Leviv ich 16:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Damolisher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hello all, I have grown tired of this editor acting constantly uncivil and throwing out personal attacks to editors that disagree with their innapropriate edits. This user's main problem is adding speculation and WP: OR of sources into List of Impact Wrestling personnel. Everytime someone tries to revert him and point him to Misplaced Pages policy on unsourced content or OR, he just yells at others for being "Misplaced Pages police", "beaucrauts" or "bullying him with jargon" I would like to point to these discussions as examples of this behavior: 1 2 3 4 5, 67 8 and examples of uncivil edit summaries 1 and 2 The user also logged out to edit war not that long ago and , and he has been blocked in the past for abusing multiple accounts. They were also notified of general sanctions in the past, so I am hoping this will be more than just a slap on the wrist. StaticVapor message me! 22:02, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
If you'll excuse me, dear administrators, while my interaction with this user and his 2 cohorts has not necessarily been the most professional, you will find that on the page he has linked to, himself and two specific other users seem to be working under the idea that myself and 2 others must answer specifically to them. For example, recent edits by the user he is attempting to character assassinate me on behalf of have removed important links from the List Of Impact Wrestling Personnel page. Rather than agree that these edits are unhelpful as he would were they done by another user, StaticVapor simply chastised the user Chaosithe for trying to fix these edits instead. Multiple times, I have made correct edits to this page complete with sources, yet StaticVapor and his cohort HHHPedrigree have continuously interfered with my edits in an unhelpful fashion citing that simply because in their opinion, they disagree with the source, only for me to turn out to be correct. Rather than apologize, they continue with this unhelpful behaviour. As you will see from my interactions with the user StaticVapor is trying to tattle on behalf of, this user was intentionally being obstinate and passive-aggressive. I would not be as annoyed as I am and interact with these users as I do were it not for the reasons listed. If they were more fair and reasonable rather than bureaucratic and arrogant, these problems would not occur to start with.
Damolisher (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wrestling again. EEng 22:34, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Incivility again. Natureium (talk) 23:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- That too. EEng 02:39, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Gonna need an electron microscope here soon Captain Eek ⚓ 03:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- That too. EEng 02:39, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Incivility again. Natureium (talk) 23:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- User:EEng I understand that while I was on Wikibreak that you guys dealt with a lot of drama, but I had no part in that. Sorry I am not going to sit by and have to deal with disruptive editors in wrestling articles. More complicated reports at WP:AIV always go stale. StaticVapor message me! 03:09, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I understand. I'm just trying to reinforce that something more has to be done about the constant, relentless craziness in this topic area. A reconsideration of what constitutes a reliable source in this area, with an eye toward radically reducing the number and scope of articles, has been talked about now and then. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress... EEng 03:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah I kinda realized if AIV doesn't work once, I have to start bringing issues here if it's not direct vandalism. So don't be surprised to hear from me again lol. Especially with general sanctions in force, this stuff should not be happening. Our Wikiproject has recently been focusing on what is and what are not, so I feel like the majority of the constructive editors have a grasp on reliable sources. Whenever someone doesn't, I'm always quick to attempt to get through to them, but it doesn't always work with everyone. StaticVapor message me! 03:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I understand. I'm just trying to reinforce that something more has to be done about the constant, relentless craziness in this topic area. A reconsideration of what constitutes a reliable source in this area, with an eye toward radically reducing the number and scope of articles, has been talked about now and then. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress... EEng 03:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- User:EEng I understand that while I was on Wikibreak that you guys dealt with a lot of drama, but I had no part in that. Sorry I am not going to sit by and have to deal with disruptive editors in wrestling articles. More complicated reports at WP:AIV always go stale. StaticVapor message me! 03:09, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Now please, explain to me which part of being unable to take blame is not provoking me, exactly? Damolisher (talk) 03:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
And as I stated above, "disruptive" is harassment of other users in addition to removing justified edits. Damolisher (talk) 03:16, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- The idea that Misplaced Pages editors are "cohorts" instead of working independently is absurd; I always try to practice good faith, but I will also call out and dispute accusations such as this. My involvement in this incident was that I merely utilized named references to make multiple uses of the same inline citations per WP:CS and WP:REFNAME, which Damolisher repeatedly referred to as unhelpful. When I suggested that they read up on those Wiki policies, they responded by snarking back at me. Some productivity, like familiarizing themselves with said policies, would have been more helpful. KyleJoan 05:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
I read all the diffs and more. The main problem here is not Damolisher's incivility although that is a severe complicating factor. Instead, the really big problem is that this editor aggressively disregards Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, and has nothing but contempt for them.
This editor repeatedly dismisses Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines as "technical jargon" and "pointless rigmarole". Evidence of Damolisher's contempt for policies and guidelines is "Ask anyone who edits these articles and they don't have the foggiest as to what the hell "WP BLEH BLEH" is." Another example is "Y'know, just a word of wisdom, citing "WP" articles doesn't *actually* have any effect on me." A third example is "Don't give me that "DA ROOLS THO" BS either." I see no evidence that this editor has ever read or tried to understand the policies and guidelines that they reject out of hand. Those are the very policies and guidelines that have made Misplaced Pages the #5 website in the world, so this editor's refusal to engage with them is both mystifying and unacceptable.
When Damolisher encounters other editors who try to explain the importance of our policies and guidelines, this editor calls them "bureaucrats", "bullies", "obnoxious" and "passive-aggressive". This editor accuses them of "hairsplitting", "harassment", "arrogance", "wasting my time", "one-upsmanship", "bloody gall", and "being obstinate". Evidence of Damolisher's contempt for editors who attempt to convince them to comply with policies and guidelines is "So, ya gonna send that memo to your pompous little friend who won't stop trying to bully people into her stupid hairsplitting and then telling tales when they're wrong?"
An editor who engages in mild incivility in defense of our policies and guidelines can be excused with a request to continue their work in a more civil fashion. An editor who is consistently uncivil in the process of battling against and undermining our policies and guidelines is an entirely different matter. Accordingly, I have indefinitely blocked Damolisher, while noting that "indefinite" does not mean "forever". In order to be unblocked, Damolisher must read and understand our policies and guidelines, and make a firm commitment to comply with them 100% of the time in the future, and to take the path of collaboration rather than contempt toward their fellow editors.Cullen Let's discuss it 06:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- My name is DlohCierekim 06:34, 17 March 2019 (UTC) and I support this block. DlohCierekim 06:34, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Based on the unrepentant response to the block on his talk page, I don't see an unblock happening anytime soon. WaltCip (talk) 15:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Tvurta - again.
Editor blocked one week for disruptive editing immediately after a previous block expired. Leviv ich 02:44, 18 March 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Straight out of a 31hour block by Ymblanter on 11th March, Tvurta is again adding unsourced interpretations to Harry Potter articles, with no indication of changing their behaviour
- Addition of "Professor" to Snape's name - after being reverted on this before
- Addition of OR for occupation on Harry Potter article
Tvurta is still not responding to any request to discuss their edits, nor are they using edit summaries - in fact a look at edit history shows that they've never used an edit summary, but they have been asked to do so here.
Edits were made to HP after an L4 warning was placed on their talk page
Given the number of attempts to reach out on the editors talk page - and talk pages of the various articles - nothing seems to be getting through. Chaheel Riens (talk) 23:20, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Since this editor is fresh off a block and immediately returned to various types of disruptive editing, I have blocked them for one week, with a firm admonition against resuming these behaviors. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTHERE editing by User:Ted hamiltun
Ted hamiltun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ted hamiltun made some very sporadic edits since the account got created in 2017, but his activities suddenly intensified in March 2019.
- Using the ethnicity/race card when dealing with other users ("removed by an Iranian user" : "source being reverted by whose appear to be from Persian Editors community" ).
- Constantly WP:FORUM text on talk pages (often along with WP:PA comments), deliberately misintepreting sources and Persistently edit-warring ( blocked few days ago : ), here are some examples : , , ,
Looking at the compelling evidence, it seems this user is only here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by being WP:TENDENTIOUS on every level. Thus, we can conclude that he/she is WP:NOTHERE to build this encyclopedia. I report him here since this has been suggested by an admin on AN3 : .---Wikaviani 00:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- The reported user has battleground mentality and aggressive behavior. He's unable to participate in a proper way. See how he replied to my comment. Also please see this archived 3RR report for more details about him and comments by other editors; @HistoryofIran, Kansas Bear, and Qahramani44:. --Wario-Man (talk) 07:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- He is indeed quite fond of fabricating sources to suit his pov-pushing Not to mention he has a PHD in spamming talk pages with his rants (I can't be bothered to show 8 links for this one, just look at his every edit basically). --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Since I'm dragged into this now, may as well add another point too that hasn't yet been stated. Besides his ethnicity-baiting posts, falsifying sources/pushing non-RS sources, and edit-warring, he also seems to have blatantly ban-evaded here , with this new IP that only posted once, in the same page that he was edit-warring in before, immediately after he was banned for edit-warring. Qahramani44 (talk) 01:43, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Users user:Wikaviani User:Qahramani44, User:Wario-Man User:HistoryofIran
Note: Ted Hamiltun opened this new thread. Since it is the same issue, I am merging it here to centralize consensus building. Captain Eek ⚓ 11:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Hello dear Wiki Adminstration these editors are from what I called earlier the Iranian editors community they work as a disinformation team taking advantage of wiki rules to push their Ideas in different articles and boycott any other source of Information which contradict their views
If you have noticed they're all take part in attacking and reporting Individuals that they consider a chalenge to their views, accusing him with all sort of accusation , aggressive, mentally ill, fabricating sources, racist, nationalist, having Agendas and etc....
This all started when I asked them to remove a phrase that Is not in cited source which meant to eliminate the presence of a whole population of a province a phrase which spread hatred, User:Wario-Man with aid of User:HistoryofIran changing role continued reverting my ask for providing a sourc to that phrase or just remove it, I even express my concern about the issue with them In talk page but no one responded, due to this Ignoring and aggresive behaviour my last attempt to solve the problem was to write for other editors to take part in this discussion and put an end to this illegal behaviours which User:HistoryofIran interpret as ranting against "Persian editors", and reported me, I got Blocked 48 hours for reverting my legal request to remove a racist phrase which is not in the cited source after I wrote for you and other editors "finally" User:Wario-Man removed that phrase, with so much anger you can see they have highly an Anti-Semitism view to the topics that they engage
Now they changing, The other member of the team user:Wikaviani is reporting me with his team mates, and again they are all came back accusing me with all kind of accusations Just to eliminate me once and for all and make It easy for themselves to apply their Ideas with out any question
I ask you to take a carefull look at these unjust acts and misusing of Wiki environment
Thank you Ted hamiltun (talk) 10:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Ted hamiltun: What ideas do you believe those editors are unfairly pushing? Can you provide more diffs? Bold claims require appropriate evidence. My advice to you: instead of leveling personal attacks on editors like Wario-Man, or reporting those who reported you, you should be examining your own conduct and responding to the valid concerns brought up about you at this noticeboard. Captain Eek ⚓ 11:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
taking advantage of wiki rules
Boy I sure hate it when folks follow the rules around here... Captain Eek ⚓ 11:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Comment. WP:SHOT and abusing report system. This is 2nd time this user shoots himself in the foot. See how he tried to delete and manipulate another editor's report on 3RR noticeboard.12 --Wario-Man (talk) 11:40, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Comment "these editors are from what I called earlier the Iranian editors community they work as a disinformation team" just another example of Ted hamiltun's WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and ranting toward a group of editors.---Wikaviani 14:18, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
@CaptainEek: He's WP:NOTHERE and WP:BATTLEGROUND case. Look at this diff. He deleted and manipulated this report just like what he did on 3RR noticeboard. Clearly he has no idea what WP is and uses it like a forum. --Wario-Man (talk) 04:29, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Ted hamiltun just posted this on my talk page. I think the real highlight is this personal attack: It's so simple these guys all are Iranian with racist agenda attack individuals
. Captain Eek ⚓ 07:50, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Definitely a big WP:BATTLEGROUND problem here. For instance, reporting the users who reported them, repeatedly using personal attacks about race and ethnicity, and POV pushing. At any rate, I think there is also a serious WP:CIR issue. I don't use CIR lightly, but I think that this is such a case. While I understand that English is not everyone's first language, this is the English Misplaced Pages. CIR presumes that users have
the ability to read and write English well enough to avoid introducing incomprehensible text into articles and to communicate effectively
as well asthe ability to communicate with other editors and abide by consensus
. Ted's talk page messages are cryptic to the point of unreadable, their edits to Persian Gulf and the subsequent talk page conversations show that they are unable to effectively communicate, are unwilling to follow sources, and can't be bothered by consensus. Combined with their generally uncivil handling of this ANI, I think Ted is WP:NOTHERE and needs a sharp tap of the sysop mop. Captain Eek ⚓ 08:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, you're right, i forgot to mention his WP:CIR issues (inability to speak and comprehend English properly). Thanks.---Wikaviani 15:37, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
User:Mountain157
Mountain157 (talk · contribs) is pushing their POV onto the article on Tartary, attempting to pass a fringe theory that claims Tartary to have been a historical country whose existence was suppressed after its demise as undisputed fact wrong section, please see here instead. In Talk:Tartary they have constantly levelled personal attacks against me, accusing me of violating various Misplaced Pages policies when I attempted to revert the article to a Neutral POV in an attempt to discredit me even after an administrator ruled that "many of Mountain157's accusations are unsupported and constitute personal attacks" above. (Though I have previously opened a content dispute, I believe it to no longer applies and have requested it be closed) Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 00:50, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- This user did not try to revert to a Neutral POV. He removed various sources, and maps that had to do with Tartary possibly being a country] back to a version that had no sources at all. I am not pushing any "fringe theory" despite this user claiming that I do. That itself actually constitutes a personal attack because WP:FRINGENOT says that accusing others of Fringe theories is often cited in discussions and edit summaries to demonized viewpoints which contradict their own, for which this user has exhibited on multiple occasions such as comparing the existence of Tartary to "Glester John"] and claiming the sources I added were "outdated by centuries".I cited a CIA document ] that talks about the re-writing of Tatar history by the Soviet Union, so I am pretty sure this is a reliable source. ]. Mountain157 (talk) 01:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- It looks like this user has opened up another another notice against me so I am moving this here]. Mountain157 (talk) 01:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Mountain157: The main source I see you used was this book, published before 1832. Its no wonder that Midnight-Blue766 reverted the edits based on it. I think part of the problem here is that the source is using outdated terminology. It refers to Tamerlane as emperor of the Tartars, when he was in fact emperor of the Timurid Empire. Newer, more reliable sources are needed. Even if the CIA source claims that the Soviets rewrote history, the Soviet empire has been dead for decades. Should Tartary be a real place, then modern scholarship should be able to confirm that fact. This boils down to a content dispute, one which should be handled in a civil manner, using reliable sources. Captain Eek ⚓ 03:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek: Thank you for your response. Here are all the sources that I did use to base my argument that Tartary was a country aside from the document above,],],],],],].
- Thanks for sharing those. Again the issue here is that these sources are centuries old. We need modern scholarship that confirms the existence of Tartary as a country, and not just a region of the world. For instance, the title of one source, writing in the 1650s, refers to a Tartar conquest of China. But other sources hold that at that time China was conquered by the Manchu in the Manchu conquest of China. I believe that the word Tartar in these conquests has wide application to any number of central Asian peoples, such as the Manchu, the Mongols, the Timurids and the like. The Tartar disambig page says that a Tartar is
Someone from Tartary, the historical central Asian landmass populated by Turks, Mongols, Manchus and others
. There remains no reason to believe that Tartary was an organized nation-state with an established Tartar government. I think it boils down to four-century old Europeans not knowing the difference between eastern peoples and labeling them all "Tartars" and ascribing the deeds of many nations to one. Captain Eek ⚓ 12:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)- I understand your concerns, but why then as recently as 1865 is Tartary listed as a country and having a a flag?Mountain157 (talk) 12:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Read this source, which seems to eloquently cover the European misconception of the supposed country. Captain Eek ⚓ 21:03, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I understand your concerns, but why then as recently as 1865 is Tartary listed as a country and having a a flag?Mountain157 (talk) 12:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for sharing those. Again the issue here is that these sources are centuries old. We need modern scholarship that confirms the existence of Tartary as a country, and not just a region of the world. For instance, the title of one source, writing in the 1650s, refers to a Tartar conquest of China. But other sources hold that at that time China was conquered by the Manchu in the Manchu conquest of China. I believe that the word Tartar in these conquests has wide application to any number of central Asian peoples, such as the Manchu, the Mongols, the Timurids and the like. The Tartar disambig page says that a Tartar is
- It looks like this user has opened up another another notice against me so I am moving this here]. Mountain157 (talk) 01:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
@Midnight-Blue766: Can you provide diffs of the personal attacks by Mountain157, aside from the content of the previous ANI involving yourself and M157? Captain Eek ⚓ 03:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Our article Tartary is in terrible shape and is a perfect opportunity for a competent editor who understands Central Asian history to do some good work. A poorly refererenced article on an obscure topic is fertile ground for fringe editing. There is a serious underlying problem because this topic is a subset of a fringe disinformation theory called New Chronology (Fomenko) which is one of the most sweeping and disruptive and bizarre conspiracy theories of the last 50 years. Misplaced Pages editors simply cannot allow this delusion to infect our articles, although we must describe the theory itself in neutral terms. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- A quick googling reveals that Tartary is the subject of a great deal of kooky fringe theories (such as the Russians and CIA conspired to hide its existence, or it was a perfect civilization built using the Ark of the Covenant). Its resurgence does appear to be concurrent with New Chronology, (as evidenced by the fact that Vladimir Putin gifted a supposed map of Tartary to Tatarstan in 2017 (note that this article concludes that Tartary may have been just a misinterpretation of the Golden Horde). This is an article that needs some attention for sure, lest folks push some wild POV. Captain Eek ⚓ 21:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Abusive IP
IPs blocked, edits revdeled, page semi-protected one week. Leviv ich 02:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 183.90.37.166 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
Also fond of watering down quackery. Could use some admin attention. Alexbrn (talk) 08:43, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've given them a week off for the edit summary abuse (now rev-deleted). My spidey-senses are tingling too, with vague memories of similar previous abuse from a Singapore IP (but can't remember if it was related to quackery). Feel free to let me know if you see more of it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:48, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Should this edit summary be rev-deled too? See Diu (Cantonese)#In Hong Kong and Macau for an explanation. Note while wiktionary says it's normally translated as "fuck you", my understanding is that the implied meaning is closer to our article or the literal meaning. Nil Einne (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I think so, thanks - it's gone. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Should this edit summary be rev-deled too? See Diu (Cantonese)#In Hong Kong and Macau for an explanation. Note while wiktionary says it's normally translated as "fuck you", my understanding is that the implied meaning is closer to our article or the literal meaning. Nil Einne (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks admins! I see the IP has apparently now switched to a different address and then to probably a mobile phone. I've requested that the page be semi'd. Alexbrn (talk) 18:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've given it a one-week semi-protection, but would not object if anyone thinks it needs longer. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- And I've blocked that IP - if they hop again, it looks (at the moment) like a relatively small range that could be blocked. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Re-created drafts of a G5-deleted page
Confirmed at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Timlaieditor with an additional sock.— Berean Hunter (talk) 14:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The recently created draft pages Draft:Suparat Bencharongkul, Draft:Suparatana Bench and Draft:Sup Bench appear to be a re-creation of the page Suparatana Bencharongkul, which was G5 deleted as a result of this SPI. I don't know whether the drafts are identical copies. Should the drafts be G5-tagged as well, and the creators added to the SPI? --Paul_012 (talk) 08:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- All four pages are substantially similar. Blocked HYonger and Doug McMaster for being obvious socks. MER-C 09:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Edit warring from User:Alex95-Ukraine
User:Alex95-Ukraine has made countless edits to 2019 Australian Grand Prix adding flagicons to tables (an example seen here, and here are 2 example) citing a consensus when in fact there was a consensus made a few days ago on the talk page for the opposite, (s)he has been informed of this several times but still refuses to wait for the outcome of the new discussion he has started on the talk page. On top of this he has also accused me of WP:SOCK (here) without any evidence. SSSB (talk) 11:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- The consensus was only about adding entry list to the article which I dont mind. There wasnt any consensus about removing flags from the tables and also at least 4 users are against removing (while only 2 want to remove them) but still you decided to change the consensual version of the article to the version which you want. Alex (talk) 12:08, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- If you took the time to read the discussion fully you would know that the main reason the entry table was added was to remove the need for 2-3 flagicons per driver, therefore there was a consensus, as for the discussion it currently stands at 2 v 2, (Alex95-Ukraine, EchoFourFour v me and Mclarenfan17, those are the only people who have contributed to the new discussion you started, there is no consensus for the reintroduction for flagicons in results tables. SSSB (talk) 12:13, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Why are you continuing to ignore opinion of other people like Admanny who also written in that talk page that he thinks that article should be kept like in previous years? Also 2-3 flagicons per driver is not 15 like it the wrc article. There is no reason to remove them. Alex (talk) 12:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not ignoring I just didn't see as it was a different thread, but 3v2 after a few hours still isn't enough to declare a consensus, in response to your other comments, they should not be discussed here but on the talk page. SSSB (talk) 12:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Why are you continuing to ignore opinion of other people like Admanny who also written in that talk page that he thinks that article should be kept like in previous years? Also 2-3 flagicons per driver is not 15 like it the wrc article. There is no reason to remove them. Alex (talk) 12:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- If you took the time to read the discussion fully you would know that the main reason the entry table was added was to remove the need for 2-3 flagicons per driver, therefore there was a consensus, as for the discussion it currently stands at 2 v 2, (Alex95-Ukraine, EchoFourFour v me and Mclarenfan17, those are the only people who have contributed to the new discussion you started, there is no consensus for the reintroduction for flagicons in results tables. SSSB (talk) 12:13, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Whereas the behavior of both Alex95-Ukraine (not constructive participation at the talk page) and SSSB (warnings of vandalism about behavior which is clearly not vandalism) is not exactly constructive, I think the problem can possibly only be solved by starting an RFC which would include other similar pages as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:41, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Call me a cynic, but overnight the talk page has flooded with responses from editors supporting the reinclusion of flags in all tables and all based on the same argument. Now I have been around a long time—I used to edit as Prisonermonkeys—and I have never seen any of those editors before. One has never edited a Fornula 1 article for anything more than spelling, one has been inactive for a year (save for a single edit in September) and one has only ever contributed to the discussion on that page. It feels a little suspicious. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, of course, I have nothing to do and have 10 accounts. That what you wanted to say, right? Alex (talk) 04:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not at all. It feels more like canvassing to me. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 09:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I do not think we can deal with this here, at least not until the canvassing accusation has been proven. A RfC, however, will solve the issue for a long time.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think an RfC is necessary, there is a clear consensus in favour of keeping flagicons and until these canvassing can be proved we will simply have to follow it. SSSB (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I do not think we can deal with this here, at least not until the canvassing accusation has been proven. A RfC, however, will solve the issue for a long time.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not at all. It feels more like canvassing to me. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 09:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, of course, I have nothing to do and have 10 accounts. That what you wanted to say, right? Alex (talk) 04:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Call me a cynic, but overnight the talk page has flooded with responses from editors supporting the reinclusion of flags in all tables and all based on the same argument. Now I have been around a long time—I used to edit as Prisonermonkeys—and I have never seen any of those editors before. One has never edited a Fornula 1 article for anything more than spelling, one has been inactive for a year (save for a single edit in September) and one has only ever contributed to the discussion on that page. It feels a little suspicious. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Augurar
Diffs:
- Previous discussions:
- Previous Augurar warnings:
Background:
Yesterday I expressed my concerns to user Augurar that they have been using a dynamic IP to edit after they have received several warnings edit warring and reminded about discretionary sanctions regarding post-1932 politics of the United States and the Syrian Civil War. They recently have edited about the US stance on Venezuela, although the interest in the topic goes back months. I fear that this could be to avoid detection and administrative actions. Pinging @Kingsif and SandyGeorgia: --Jamez42 (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Edit warring and personal attacks
I feel as if M.Billoo2000 has been edit warring with me. He takes offense to almost any thing I do relating to Pakistan Super League. Most recently, he has used ad-hominem attacks against me as noted here . He wants to blank the pages I create and delete my entries for example and , but he refuses to use appropriate methods like WP:AFD as mentioned here and here. So said The Great Wiki Lord. (talk) 17:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Vandal-only IP range needs blocking
Dealt with for a couple of years....(non-admin closure) Madness 20:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nothing but disruption has come from the range Special:Contributions/2605:FE80:2100:A01E:0:0:0:0/64. Is it time for a rangeblock? Binksternet (talk) 17:43, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Webhost block of Special:Contributions/2605:FE80:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 renewed. Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- That'll get it. Binksternet (talk) 19:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Paid editing and Mike Duffy article
Being dealt with. Black Kite (talk) 23:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
During the 2015 trial of Canadian Senator Mike Duffy an individual named Mark Bourrie testified that he had been paid to edit Duffy's article. According to the National Post article "Mike Duffy's payment for combating Internet trolls was funnelled through a friend's firm, court hears"
- "I thought it was Mike Duffy’s money,” said Mark Bourrie, a freelance writer and historian who once occupied the desk next to Duffy in Parliament’s workroom for journalists. The two were friends long before Prime Minister Stephen Harper put the CTV broadcaster in the Senate in 2009 and Bourrie had been happy to help Duffy get vicious claims about him removed from his Misplaced Pages page and YouTube videos in which he appeared.this news item).
It appears that this never came to the attention of Misplaced Pages. I have noticed that there are editors heavily editing both articles to this day and I'm wondering if admins and checkusers can look into it and the articles? 96.44.212.221 (talk) 19:25, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I have looked at this for a little while and found some, shall we say, coincidences. When I've written it up, I will contact a couple of ArbCom members and checkusers via email, though I suspect checkuser will not be useful due to the length of time that has passed since the original edits. I am not going to post it here per our outing policy. Black Kite (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Talk:The Great Replacement conspiracy theory
I've semi-protected the talkpage due to the volume of trolling associated with this topic's relation to events in New Zealand and blocked a bunch of users and probable socks. A few more eyes on the subject would be helpful - there are a lot of people that are all stirred up. Nearly every subject involving racial conspiracy theories and racist extremism has seen a significant uptick in trolling, sealioning, and outright hate speech. Acroterion (talk) 20:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
And Unite the Right rally is seeing similar trouble. Acroterion (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Semi-protection at Unite the Right rally would be helpful. Leviv ich 21:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've given it 3 days to see if it helps, and anyone else is welcome to adjust that as needed. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Watchlisted. MastCell 14:58, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've given it 3 days to see if it helps, and anyone else is welcome to adjust that as needed. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
White nationalist terrorism
- Ck4829 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user created Category:White nationalist terrorism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and added hundreds of white nationalism-related pages that have no apparent connection to terrorism. Many of these pages are BLPs. To give an example, they added Jack Posobiec to the category. I have no love of Posobiec (or any other white nationalist person or group), but he is most definitely not a terrorist. I would have taken this to BLPN, but many of the pages they added are not BLPs, and there may be some value to the category so XFD doesn't seem like the right place either. I think this is best seen as mass disruption. R2 (bleep) 22:16, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I noticed this too, the editor seems to have a history doing the same thing. Appears to be an ongoing attempt to game Misplaced Pages (I'm no fan of these right-wing extremists either). Bacondrum (talk) 23:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Seems like the only thing they have been doing for the past year has been adding POV-pushing, mostly inappropriate, categories. Category:Heresy in Christianity to some religious Trump film, creation of a now-deleted category called "Perceived judicial activism in the United States" (and adding that category to articles the editor finds to be judicial activist), mass-adding Category:American conspiracy theorists to BLPs that do not contain any sources about them being conspiracy theorists Another mass-categorization based on his "Militarization of society" was found to be "completely inappropriate" at CfD. Clearly, if Ck4829 fails to accept that categories need to be supported by the content and sources of the articles (and that this is vital especially in BLPs), he needs to be stopped. --Pudeo (talk) 07:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Since the user has chosen not to respond here or at there talk page but continued to add the category including clearly erroneous cases (thus so far failing the Turing test), I blocked them for 31h. I encourage users to continue discussing here, since, if the above remarks are correct (which I did not have time to check), the user should not be editing Misplaced Pages at all.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:34, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- To elaborate, the examples I put above (and you could find a lot more) about the category "American conspiracy theorists" had no mentions of conspiracy theories at all, yet he categorized them. However, I said "mostly inappropriate" because some articles do mention conspiracy theories like Michael Flynn. But per WP:DEFINING it's probably still not right to categorize Flynn as a one. Given that the majority are completely unsourced, this is a mass BLP violation that requires a lot of cleanup. Back in 2017 Graham87 stated on this user's talk page that
you've been making problematic category edits for the last eleven years; please knock it off.
and he did not respond. --Pudeo (talk) 12:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- To elaborate, the examples I put above (and you could find a lot more) about the category "American conspiracy theorists" had no mentions of conspiracy theories at all, yet he categorized them. However, I said "mostly inappropriate" because some articles do mention conspiracy theories like Michael Flynn. But per WP:DEFINING it's probably still not right to categorize Flynn as a one. Given that the majority are completely unsourced, this is a mass BLP violation that requires a lot of cleanup. Back in 2017 Graham87 stated on this user's talk page that
- A quick sampling shows that the editor has been tagging everything that could be remotely construed as racist or white nationalist as "terrorist." This is at least an overreach. In general, categories are supposed to reflect explicit sourcing, and nearly all of the articles that have been tagged have no such description in referenced content. These should all be rolled back, Acroterion (talk) 12:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support indef block due to lack of competency and failure to communicate. The last time that they communicated with anyone on wiki was 2006. Given the warnings by Graham87 and Doug Weller that were ignored, this person has used up the good faith of the community.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 13:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC) - Rollback all categorizations into Category:White nationalist terrorism. If that category should exist, then pages should only be added to it upon careful consideration, not in the indiscriminate rapid-fire manner that Ck4829 did it. Deli nk (talk) 13:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hold the phone, here. @Ymblanter: you identified this as "clearly erroneous". In that example, we have an article on a Black American war veteran being beaten almost to death by white assailants in a clearly racially motivated hate crime, along with the local and state law apparatus refusing to prosecute. It would be a valid editorial discussion to debate whether or not this qualifies as terrorism, but it is not clearly erroneous.
If your block is based on that, it's a bad block.
- As for the supposed erroneous conspiracy theorist categorizations, all of them are easily sourceable with the simplest Google search:
- Paul E. Vallely: CNN: "... Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely, a promoter of the birther conspiracy theory ..."
- Gordon Klingenschmitt: Huffpost: "Klingenschmitt claimed that he was booted out of the Navy because of the form of his prayers, when, in reality, he deliberately got himself court-martialed by disobeying a direct order not to appear in uniform at a political rally ..."; also MSNBC: "Klingenschmitt is a rather notorious figure, best known for, among other things, writing a book that argued, in all seriousness, that President Obama is possessed by demons."
- Peter Sprigg: SPLC quoting Sprigg's 2010 book, Homosexual Assault in the Military: "Welcoming open homosexuality in the military would clearly damage the readiness and effectiveness of the force – in part because it would increase the already serious problem of homosexual assault in the military." Sprigg's view has been widely criticized as corresponding with the widely-debunked homosexual recruitment conspiracy theory.
- Wiley Drake: Word & Way: "Drake is plaintiff in a federal suit asking the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to void California's electoral votes for Obama on grounds that he did not meet all the constitutional requirements for eligibility for the office of the president." Or just Google "Wiley Drake birther". Note also all of the widespread coverage of Drake encouraging his followers to pray for Obama to die.
- Tony Perkins: also a birther, among other things; read the article's Controversy section.
- If the categories are being added without the sourcing being up to date in the article, then the correct, WP:HERE way to fix that is to add the sourcing to the articles; that's how we get an encyclopedia built. Removing the categories when they're clearly correct does not: it satisfies BLP on the face but actually it's hiding reliable negative information in what could reasonably be seen as an effort to promote these individuals through sanitizing their unsavoury political activities. We should fix these articles. Ivanvector (/Edits) 13:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Adding categories which are not backed up by sourced material is a BLP violation. Doing it instead of addressing the concerns does not make it better. Though of course if someone wants to unblock they are welcome to do so.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:38, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, but categorizing someone as a terrorist or a conspiracy theorist and having it sit there for months for someone else to back up, is a completely wrong course of action in BLPs. Also as mentioned, it's important to consider whether these are WP:DEFINING characteristics of the BLP. --Pudeo (talk) 13:52, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I absolutely agree that many of these are WP:BLP violations. The terrorism and conspiracy theory categorizations should be immediately removed from BLPs and only restored after there is explicit consensus that it is appropriate for that article. Gnome de plume (talk) 14:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, in the two cases I reverted the categorisation I checked that the word terrorism was not in the article--Ymblanter (talk) 14:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × several) Okay, fine. See the collapse below for sections taken directly from the articles, as of Ck4829's edit:
- I absolutely agree that many of these are WP:BLP violations. The terrorism and conspiracy theory categorizations should be immediately removed from BLPs and only restored after there is explicit consensus that it is appropriate for that article. Gnome de plume (talk) 14:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Excerpts from Misplaced Pages |
---|
References
|
- Note that Ck4829 did not add or modify any of this text, they only added the category. I had to modify one of the references because its website has since been blacklisted, otherwise this is what is currently published on Misplaced Pages and has been for months at least. These edits were from last November, and the categories are still present in all of those articles as of right now. Why the push to whitewash those articles now? Ivanvector (/Edits) 14:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. No one here is defending white nationalism. Calling something "terrorism" is different. Natureium (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I think he's talking about the "conspiracy theory" categorisation here. Guettarda (talk) 15:26, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ivan could you refactor and perhaps put the conspiracy theory bits under a subheading? I thought I was the only one confused by this. Fish+Karate 15:49, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nobody's trying to whitewash anything. It's reasonable for us to expect that categories should not represent one editor's original research or synthesis, and to demand that care be exercised in the use of narrow, pejorative categories. One can make a convincing argument that lynching amounts to terrorism, for example, but that doesn't mean that we should find every article concerning lynching and place a terrorism category. At the very least a consensus needs to exist. I've removed the more obvious examples that I came across. All due care must be exercised for BLPs to ensure that "terrorist" has an explicit basis for inclusion in a BLP, not just an argument that they're bad people deserving of the appellation. Acroterion (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I could add a sub-heading, but it would be below the second comment in the thread. My point, really, is that having brought up these seemingly unrelated categorizations at all (which, as noted, are all properly sourced and were added months ago universally without objection) seems less like it has anything to do with objections to the white nationalist terrorism category and more to do with using this opportunity to suppress valid categorizations which the complainant disagrees with. If someone can pick apart the thread to pull out the influence of that false allegation on the calls for sanctions, they are welcome to do so. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector: it would be helpful if you could stop attributing motivations to other editors. I've removed the "white nationalist terrorism" from The Turner Diaries, a racist polemic that advocates racist revolution, Wouter Basson who was unsuccessfully prosecuted for allegations of systematic murder from racist motivations, ghost skin, a racist lifestyle, and others that are tangentially related. Applying "terrorist" to all horrible things cheapens the appellation. Acroterion (talk) 16:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- The Turner Diaries is literally a fictional account of a government led by African Americans and Jews being overthrown by a violent white nationalist revolution, which was used as a manifesto by the Oklahoma City bomber and numerous other violent white nationalists, but okay, it doesn't belong in Category:White nationalist terrorism. That sounds like a wonderfully encyclopedic approach to a sensitive topic. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- You appear to think I'm arguing about this. You're wrong. I just think that slapping the "terrorist" tag on everything that is unambiguously bad and which can at least tangentially be linked to terrorism, at whatever distance, should be carefully reviewed and discussed. Many of the editor's tags look OK to me, but it is clear that they've been using a very broad brush. Acroterion (talk) 17:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- You're right, we agree on that point. I've reviewed a few - it's not just that some of them are inappropriate (I removed one from Golden Circle (proposed country)) but some are just technically improper: they added the category to Dylann Roof, which definitely qualifies, but that article is already a member of a container category that is also a member of the one we're discussing, so it just didn't need to be there. Ivanvector (/Edits) 17:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- You appear to think I'm arguing about this. You're wrong. I just think that slapping the "terrorist" tag on everything that is unambiguously bad and which can at least tangentially be linked to terrorism, at whatever distance, should be carefully reviewed and discussed. Many of the editor's tags look OK to me, but it is clear that they've been using a very broad brush. Acroterion (talk) 17:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- The Turner Diaries is literally a fictional account of a government led by African Americans and Jews being overthrown by a violent white nationalist revolution, which was used as a manifesto by the Oklahoma City bomber and numerous other violent white nationalists, but okay, it doesn't belong in Category:White nationalist terrorism. That sounds like a wonderfully encyclopedic approach to a sensitive topic. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Ivanvector: it would be helpful if you could stop attributing motivations to other editors. I've removed the "white nationalist terrorism" from The Turner Diaries, a racist polemic that advocates racist revolution, Wouter Basson who was unsuccessfully prosecuted for allegations of systematic murder from racist motivations, ghost skin, a racist lifestyle, and others that are tangentially related. Applying "terrorist" to all horrible things cheapens the appellation. Acroterion (talk) 16:45, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I could add a sub-heading, but it would be below the second comment in the thread. My point, really, is that having brought up these seemingly unrelated categorizations at all (which, as noted, are all properly sourced and were added months ago universally without objection) seems less like it has anything to do with objections to the white nationalist terrorism category and more to do with using this opportunity to suppress valid categorizations which the complainant disagrees with. If someone can pick apart the thread to pull out the influence of that false allegation on the calls for sanctions, they are welcome to do so. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I think he's talking about the "conspiracy theory" categorisation here. Guettarda (talk) 15:26, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. No one here is defending white nationalism. Calling something "terrorism" is different. Natureium (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note that Ck4829 did not add or modify any of this text, they only added the category. I had to modify one of the references because its website has since been blacklisted, otherwise this is what is currently published on Misplaced Pages and has been for months at least. These edits were from last November, and the categories are still present in all of those articles as of right now. Why the push to whitewash those articles now? Ivanvector (/Edits) 14:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- All five diffs showing the addition of the "conspiracy theorist" category seem correct for those articles based on the content of those articles (see excerpts posted by Ivan above). For my part I think it's an appropriate categorization of Flynn, too (he promoted the Pizzagate nonsense and led crowds in chants of "Lock her up!"). I also agree that Isaac Woodward's case is an example not just of white national terrorism, but state-sponsored white national terrorism. Christian heresy seems an appropriate category for The Trump Prophesy, as the article has a quote that says, "unbiblical at best and heretical at worst". (Also, suggesting a president is a prophet is kind of the definition of heresy, isn't it?) Mass categorizations of hundreds of articles–especially controversial categories added to BLPs–certainly make me nervous, but looking over these diffs leaves me asking, "where's the beef?" Leviv ich 16:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Again, in the case of Isaac Woodard this might or might not be terrorism. This should be a subject of a discussion. The article currently does not mention terrorism. However, the user so far did not discuss anything, they just continued adding categories like a robot, even after warnings and a message that the ANI discussion has been opened specifically about this issue.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- There is recently (since approximately 2016) some indication that past incidents of white nationalist violence are coming to be seen as terrorism, or at least being compared to incidents of violence perpetrated by non-whites which were described as terrorism at the time. It's pretty likely that the editor was swept up in that when they created this category, and there are several examples of inappropriate categorizations (related to Category:White nationalist terrorism specifically) in their recent edits. This probably should have been addressed by discussing with the user, but you can't discuss things with a user who doesn't interact, so I have to agree with your block (I'll strike my "bad block" comment as soon as I can find it in the mess of edit conflicts). I object to further sanctions, at least not yet - see if the user responds after their block. As for the category itself, it's valid at least on the face of it although it could probably just be up-merged into Category:White nationalism, and many of the articles it's been attached to do need to be reviewed. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes I think we all agree that these categorizations (like all categorizations) are subject to review and consensus by editors. But I see these as good faith additions–BRD means I can add a category, and somebody can remove it, and as long as I don't re-add it, I'm not being disruptive, right? So by "where's the beef?" I mean, "where's the conduct issue?" ("beef" as in "complaint", that's the double entendre, you see...), not that every categorization was correct. So far the ones I've seen are at least correct or could be correct and thus made in good faith. By the way, for my part, I think all lynchings are terrorism by definition and that all lynching articles should be categorized as terrorism, and if government officials aided or permitted the lynchings, then it's state-sponsored white nationalist terrorism, but that's a conversation for another page. (Someone ping me and I'll bring the sources.) Leviv ich 17:46, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- There is recently (since approximately 2016) some indication that past incidents of white nationalist violence are coming to be seen as terrorism, or at least being compared to incidents of violence perpetrated by non-whites which were described as terrorism at the time. It's pretty likely that the editor was swept up in that when they created this category, and there are several examples of inappropriate categorizations (related to Category:White nationalist terrorism specifically) in their recent edits. This probably should have been addressed by discussing with the user, but you can't discuss things with a user who doesn't interact, so I have to agree with your block (I'll strike my "bad block" comment as soon as I can find it in the mess of edit conflicts). I object to further sanctions, at least not yet - see if the user responds after their block. As for the category itself, it's valid at least on the face of it although it could probably just be up-merged into Category:White nationalism, and many of the articles it's been attached to do need to be reviewed. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Again, in the case of Isaac Woodard this might or might not be terrorism. This should be a subject of a discussion. The article currently does not mention terrorism. However, the user so far did not discuss anything, they just continued adding categories like a robot, even after warnings and a message that the ANI discussion has been opened specifically about this issue.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Copied from Ck4829's talk page by Leviv ich 18:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC):
Hello, I'm serving my time as I should, I am appealing nothing, I meant to disrupt and I succeeded, guilty. My edits went too far, maybe? But I sought out include individuals, cheerleaders, ideologues, organizations, symbols, rhetoric, propaganda all as white nationalist terrorism. While it's clearly a very uncomfortable subject, I find it odd that practically nobody corrected my 'overreach' with what appropriate examples are, if someone were to tell people in that discussion something, one could tell them "I put absolutely nothing in that category as a joke or to be ironic and I sought out to populate it as quickly as possible."
I hope that helps, I've been told by a friend I should probably limit my time on Misplaced Pages for a while, especially going through all those disgusting pages.
Ck4829 (talk) 18:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) To be honest folks, the collective reaction to my complaint sickens me a bit. Pudeo's perfectly reasonable pointing to Ck4829's past questionable behavior over conspiracy theorists quickly led to the discussion being railroaded in an inappropriate direction. What on earth are we doing picking out one or two of the hundreds and hundreds of questionable categorizations to bicker over whether they're correct or not? It shouldn't matter. If an editor indiscriminately mass-tags 500 articles, and 250 of them end up being correct, does that mean the mass tagging was appropriate? Does it mean we now have to pick through all 500 of them, and does it mean the editor wasn't being disruptive? No of course not; if half the stuff in the Misplaced Pages is incorrect and inflammatory, then that stuff does FAR more damage than the good that's done by the half that's correct. Not to mention the ridiculous burden that's placed on the community by this sort of indiscriminate mass tagging. Throw in the BLP dimension, and the contention that we should pick through these categorizations one by one is flatly contrary to core policy. I mean as best as I can tell, this editor literally was taking every single white nationalism page and adding it to white nationalism terrorism. That's blatant disruption. It might even be part of an effort to game search engine results. Don't lose the forest through the trees, guys. Geesh. R2 (bleep) 18:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Are 250 out of 500 incorrect? I look at Category:White nationalist terrorism and while I haven't gone through each one of the 100+ pages, scanning the list, it all seems in order: KKK, White Patriot Party, assassination of Barack Obama plots, Emmett Till... granted, these may have already been cleaned up by others, and I can't see what it used to look like. Spot checking the contribs, I'm seeing instances of other editors edit warring to keep in his categorizations. None jump out at me as incorrect. Some are not properly diffused (or whatever you call it), but... maybe I'm just not seeing it. Leviv ich 19:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I should have clarified, that was purely a hypothetical. However I just looked through Ck4829's 10 most recent tags, and only 3 of them said anything about terrorism. R2 (bleep) 19:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 3) Well, when a new category is created, it needs to be populated. We have several "terrorism" subcategories within other nationalist category trees, and (as I observed above) the subject of white nationalist terrorism is being actively discussed recently, and so mass-populating the new category with articles related to white nationalist violence is a reasonable approach. Most have been fairly accurate, some are a stretch, a handful have been shown to be editorially inappropriate, but I don't think anyone so far has found one which was definitely wrong (as in, say, dropping Abraham Lincoln into this category). Regarding Posobiec: it is a reasonable view that deliberate alt-right false news constitutes terrorist propaganda; it's not right for Misplaced Pages to repeat that opinion without decent sources and considering an appropriate balance, but this falls within my definition of stretching. Most of the obvious problems that I've seen while picking through these is that they are duplicates via parent categories, and so while the category is valid it's also redundant. None of this on its own should've been grounds for a block, but there were other factors.
- A bigger question maybe is if Misplaced Pages can describe these incidents as terrorism, I mean I would, but if sources don't agree then the category needs to be renamed. Category:White nationalist violence would be a suitable replacement title. It would usefully narrow the category and simply definitions that way: people like Posobiec who promote nationalism through their media channels but don't themselves actually participate in violent incidents would be excluded, and it's more likely then that remaining members of the category would be defined by this aspect. Ivanvector (/Edits) 19:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- No offense to him or anyone else, but I think it's ask if this edit renders Ivanvector involved? It was after his first comment here, but it certainly looks like he's thrown himself into the content dispute. R2 (bleep) 19:28, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Logged out editing: IP 82.165.86.117
Range 82.165.0.0/16 already blocked by NinjaRobotPirate (webhostblock). Abecedare (talk) 00:35, 18 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
82.165.86.117 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Appeared out of the blue and leaving DS alert on user pages, lawyering, and reverting on obscure Misplaced Pages essays. Ignored requests for them to log in on their talk page. Need a block and a SPI. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 22:16, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Without commenting upon the merits of all this, the IP is quite right to complain about the way anonymous editors get treated (which is, like garbage). Madness 22:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yawn... show where the IP is being distructive or doing something wrong. Legacypac (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Maybe their (very short) contribs history? This: (twice) is pure disruption, especially given Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2019_March_9#Misplaced Pages:VERYFINEPEOPLE.
- And don't use "Yawn..." as a prefix when you've been too damned lazy to look for yourself. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:15, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I already watchlist that page - saw the reverts before this was filed. The editors that reverted the IP should really discuss the issue on the talkpage first. I already looked at all their contributions before posting so don't call me lazy. Legacypac (talk) 23:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflictx2) Did you seriously use the fact a user was editing from an IP as your explanation for reversion? WP:HUMAN Madness 23:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's not disruption. If you have a redirect to a Misplaced Pages page, and a deletion discussion closes with no consensus, then there is definitely no consensus for having the shortcut in the Misplaced Pages page, and if there is no consensus for a shortcut then it gets removed, obviously.Lurking shadow (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's not how "no consensus" works. There was no consensus to delete the redirect. You're in the opposite position here.--Jorm (talk) 00:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes. Deletion of pages does not happen with no consensus, usually. I didn't do that. Removal of shortcuts is obviously something different - shortcuts should be universally accepted(they suggest that you can use the shortcut without problems) plus the shortcut is longer than the page name(which renders it meaningless).Lurking shadow (talk) 00:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- The purpose of this redirect, as was obvious for every editor at the RfD, was to be used from this page. It's not a typical mainspace redirect, it's a WP:ALLCAPS one. And there was no consensus to remove it. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes. Deletion of pages does not happen with no consensus, usually. I didn't do that. Removal of shortcuts is obviously something different - shortcuts should be universally accepted(they suggest that you can use the shortcut without problems) plus the shortcut is longer than the page name(which renders it meaningless).Lurking shadow (talk) 00:25, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's not how "no consensus" works. There was no consensus to delete the redirect. You're in the opposite position here.--Jorm (talk) 00:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- So your "Yawn..." doesn't mean "Just ignore this, it's only tedious low-level vandalism" it's actually, "Don't mind them, they're just a logged-out experienced editor doing my 3RR and 4RR for me"? Is it you that we need to run a CU on? Seriously unimpressed with your behaviour now. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's not disruption. If you have a redirect to a Misplaced Pages page, and a deletion discussion closes with no consensus, then there is definitely no consensus for having the shortcut in the Misplaced Pages page, and if there is no consensus for a shortcut then it gets removed, obviously.Lurking shadow (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yawn... show where the IP is being distructive or doing something wrong. Legacypac (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
(Multiple ec) User:Andy Dingley accused me of sockpuppetry. SPI is the correct forum for that accusation, and I want them to retract the accusation here. Legacypac (talk) 00:41, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
User:SteveDehner repeatedly adding original research and making personal attacks
Editor blocked 31 hours for disruptive editing. Leviv ich 02:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC) (non-admin closure)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have already reported at Misplaced Pages:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Pacific_Islands_-_user_citing_a_self-published_book_matching_username, which has the edit links. This user added original research to several articles, left nonsense personal attacks on my talk page, and has now made more personal attacks in the reverts of my removals of the OR . This user clearly has no interest in being a respectful contributor who can follow the rules, and I have no interest in continuing to interact with him. Reywas92 00:29, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.User:SMcCandlish disregarding ban from my talk
Irrespective of the previous misunderstandings or transgressions, it should be clear by now that- BHG does not wish to communicate with SMc on her own talkpage
- She also does not welcome SMc's participation in the drafting (in her userspace) of a potential RFC.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:SMcCandlish (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
SMcCandlish posted on my talk to query an RFC close I had made, as he is of course entitled to do.
Two rounds later, he was making maliciously false accusations of bad faith putting into my mouth the words "I get angry when when my closes are faintly criticized, and will spin implausible interpretations of what someone wrote just so I can vent"
.
So I ended the discussion at 0043
At 00:47 I hatted it with a ping to SMcCandlish, saying "Stay off my talk".
Meanwhile, SMcCandlish had begun a series of edits to one of my userpages which was clearly headed This page is for discussion by invitation of the User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria. If other editors who wish to express views on the draft, please comment at User talk:BrownHairedGirl.
Those edits were timestamped:
I reverted or removed all of those, using undo wherever possible to ping SMcCandlish, and noting every time which part of "If other editors who wish to express views on the draft, please comment at User talk:BrownHairedGirl" was unclear to you???
I replied to one of the group working on that who had posted If the User:SMcCandlish is going to be part of this working group I'm out of here
. I agreed wholeheartedly; we had just had a live demo of the futility of trying to discuss a disagreement with SMcCandlish.
SMcCandlish then posted again on my talk page, despite being explicitly asked to stay off it.
Please can someone who speaks the McCandlishish language try to convey to him the meaning of that "stay off my talk page" and his page is for discussion by invitation
means?
I have work to be getting on with, and don't want to waste time in a sprawling edit war on my own userpages with an editor who assumes bad faith. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- @BrownHairedGirl: did you mean
this page
? --DannyS712 (talk) 02:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)- Yes she means "This" page which is not for "It" to disrupt. Legacypac (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I was drafting a WP:AN report about BrownHairedGirl's behavior in the same "incident". BHG's diffs above are a very incomplete and misleading picture. Not only is the "ban" bogus (there's not actually any such thing, per WP:USERPAGE, and especially not for an admin, per WP:ADMINACCT; what there can be is a request to stay away from someone's talk page, then not abiding by it for unconstructive purposes being considered a form of disruptive editing), BHG repeatedly made demands that I take the matter under discussion to her talk page after supposedly "banning" me from it, a blatant case of WP:GAMING#Gaming the consensus-building process.
So, do we want to merge these ANI and AN threads? I'm raising ADMINACCT and WP:ADMINCOND concerns in the AN I opened.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:50, 18 March 2019 (UTC)To address some of the above, here: "we had just had a live demo of the futility of trying to discuss a disagreement with SMcCandlish" – No, what you had was a weird over-reaction to someone criticizing one of your closes, then you ignored every single substantive thing I was saying about the RfC draft (which has nothing to do with your close or my criticism of it), and censored my input from the page you directed me to, pretended to "ban" me from your user talk, then demanded 5 or 6 times that I take the RfC drafting matters to your user talk (after supposedly banning from me it), censored the material again, ignored my e-mail trying to smooth this out with you, and instead opened this bogus ANI report. You're also engaging in blatant WP:FACTION behavior with Legacypac (note the above attempt to tie this to a completely unrelated kerfuffle from last week – this is about personalized vindictiveness, not substance). This is conduct grossly unbecoming an admin. All after I repeatedly made clear to you that my only intent is helping produce an RfC that is likely to come to an actual consensus, and that we're in damned agreement that many of these portals need to be deleted, than an RfC is necessary, and that the community does need to establish standards for them. All this pointless drama because I dared to very mildly criticize one of your related closes (and even conceded to every point of your rebuttal but one, the "mandate" line, in which you denied the reality of having said that). Look, you had an actual ally in resolving the portal mess, whom you instead decided to dress up in an enemy costume and shoot at just for your own stress relief. Very silly. I would suggest WP:BOOMERANG, because you can't bait an editor into a "you can't use my talk page but you must use my talk page" trap and then ANI them for it; but I think the AN thread will have this covered.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC); revised 03:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)- Cross reference this subtread Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Non-open_drafting_of_an_RfC_about_portals,_and_BHG_behavior_in_relation_to_it Legacypac (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- So uptight and seeing conspiracy around every corner they don't even find their own jokes funny. Not a productive contributor to the discussion. Legacypac (talk) 03:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds self-referential to me. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- So uptight and seeing conspiracy around every corner they don't even find their own jokes funny. Not a productive contributor to the discussion. Legacypac (talk) 03:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Update: I'm done for the day, and may not be back tomorrow, at least until late. I've said all I need to say about this here at the AN thread. The short version is that BHG assumes awareness of her intents that I did not possess at the time, and nothing excuses the "you can't use my talk page but you must use my talk page" trap-baiting. This ANI is unclean hands and vexatious. However, what I really care about is the RfC that emerges, as covered at the AN thread, which is broader than this ANI one (i.e., merge in that direction if we need to consolidate the discussions). The inter-editor dispute aspects of this can just go away for all I care. While I've raised ADMINCOND concerns, I'm not pressing for anything but an admonition, and have tried twice in e-mail to let bygones be bygones about all this "malicious" finger-pointing. But that really is an AGF problem; disagreeing with someone isn't "malice". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Cross reference this subtread Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Non-open_drafting_of_an_RfC_about_portals,_and_BHG_behavior_in_relation_to_it Legacypac (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, your massive timewasting sprawl of bad faith, misrepresentations, outright falsehoods, character attacks, smears, dismissal of multiple requests not to post on my talkpages, and allegations that I am somehow gaming the consensus-building system are a disgrace.
It appears that you have decided to
A/ throw a tantrum because your misrepresentations and repeated assumptions bad faith make you impossible to work with
B/ try to throw up enough FUD to bully me out of my attempt to work with a small balanced group to refine a draft RFC whose specific stated aim is to to ensure that all options which may command support are presented here, and not to promote my preferences
.
I will pick apart some of the lies in SMcC's para above:
weird over-reaction to someone criticizing one of your closes
No, SMcC, there is nothing weird about breaking off communication in response to your malicious claim that I wasspin implausible interpretations of what someone wrote just so I can vent
. That outrageous allegation that I am acting dishonestly in bad faith makes dialogue impossible.ignored every single substantive thing I was saying about the RfC draft
It is being drafted by a small group. We did not invite your input, and given your conduct earlier I do not want to engage with you.
I have no interest in dealing with any of the substance of what is said by someone who behaves as badly as you have done in the last 12 hours. I am astonished by your extraordinary sense of entitlement that you believe you have some right to go to a page explicitly for the use of 5 editors, and post vast screeds to it, after you have already made bogus assertions of my bad faithYou're also engaging in blatant WP:FACTION behavior with Legacypac
. See User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Draft_RFC_on_Portal_criteria#Can_we_draft_a_joint_proposal where I set out how I invited four people to work with me, not one, and how two of them are on the opposite site of the debate to me. That's all publicly visible, on a page you edited many times -- so your alegation that i am faction-forming is quite transparently something which know to be false. In other words, it is a deliberate, malicious falsehood.a blatant case of WP:GAMING#Gaming the consensus-building process.
Again, malicious nonsense, easily disprovable. My aims are set clearly set out at User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria#Intro and User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria#Can_we_draft_a_joint_proposal. See for example my reply to Legacypac's suggestion that a section be omitted:Please remember that what we are trying to do here is to identify proposals worth presenting to the community, not to reach conclusions on whether any of us supports the proposal.
nothing excuses the "you can't use my talk page but you must use my talk page" trap-baiting
There was no such trap-baiting. There was 1) a request for you to stay off my talk page, which you ignored; 2) a page to which you were not invited, which clearly listed those who were invited, and which clearly said those who were not invited should not post them.
That's nottrap-baiting
; it is either a comprehension problem on your part, or a choice by you to simply ignore what was clearly written.I've raised ADMINCOND concerns
No, you raise a legitimate question about an RFC closure, and when I answered you honestly you chose to falsely accuse me of "spin and "venting". It is no part of ADMINCOND to put up with malicious accusations of bad faith.
I have can only guess at what you are trying to achieve by this shitstorm of malicious misrepresentation, but it looks like the behaviour of a drunk spoiling for a fight and lashing out in bogus accusations because you had not comprehended plain English. I hope that you feel better in the morning, and that you do not repeat such shameful tantrum. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. I'm reclosing this as this will just spiral into something worse very soon. Both of the editors should rightly stay away from each other (and according to SMC, they are now, which is a good thing). That's all. Nothing to see here. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 15:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Follow-up notes
- I've removed the personal recommendation from the close as closes are meant to be editorial and consensus-based in nature (none of which was made here) and not opinionative. --QEDK (後 ☕ 桜) 07:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I woke up early, and have a few minutes to go over this. "SmC to respect BHG's wishes on the two points listed above" is off-point, really, since I was clearly not posting there at all (to either BHG's talk page, other than for a required WP:AN template, or to the RfC draft talk page, which is technically a subpage of BHG's talk page) after noticing her "ban". The close is trying to "stop and prevent" something that wasn't happening and won't happen. I'll also add that our third round of e-mail has been a failure. Despite me reiterating that this has just been an assumptions-predicated communications failure we should drop, BHG threw this back in my face with another round of projective "malicious" finger-pointing, and ratcheted up the hate-mail tone with a strange accusation of being an "angry drunk" who should "sleep it off". The only one angry here is BHG (and maybe Legacypac for other reasons); my tone in this has been entirely matter-of-fact. I'm not butt-hurt about this stuff, it's simply evidence that BHG is displaying a temperament unsuited to adminship. If it continues, it will lead to an RfArb, since persistence in assuming bad faith and seeking to intensify instead of rectify a dispute is an ADMINCOND failure, as was opening an ANI after baiting someone into a trap. The close above is in obvious error in being one-sided. It's not an error ArbCom will make. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- That is your prerogative, but the thread has been closed and you have been asked to refrain from addressing BHG for a couple of days. Fish+Karate 13:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, the conclusion is you had best not contribute to BHG's user space, itemised as 1 and 2. Is this not acceptable? cygnis insignis 13:22, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I woke up early, and have a few minutes to go over this. "SmC to respect BHG's wishes on the two points listed above" is off-point, really, since I was clearly not posting there at all (to either BHG's talk page, other than for a required WP:AN template, or to the RfC draft talk page, which is technically a subpage of BHG's talk page) after noticing her "ban". The close is trying to "stop and prevent" something that wasn't happening and won't happen. I'll also add that our third round of e-mail has been a failure. Despite me reiterating that this has just been an assumptions-predicated communications failure we should drop, BHG threw this back in my face with another round of projective "malicious" finger-pointing, and ratcheted up the hate-mail tone with a strange accusation of being an "angry drunk" who should "sleep it off". The only one angry here is BHG (and maybe Legacypac for other reasons); my tone in this has been entirely matter-of-fact. I'm not butt-hurt about this stuff, it's simply evidence that BHG is displaying a temperament unsuited to adminship. If it continues, it will lead to an RfArb, since persistence in assuming bad faith and seeking to intensify instead of rectify a dispute is an ADMINCOND failure, as was opening an ANI after baiting someone into a trap. The close above is in obvious error in being one-sided. It's not an error ArbCom will make. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just to say that BHG and SM are both editors whose talents I value, and I hope they can, with time, put this behind them. Maybe, someday soon, they will find some little task somewhere they can collaborate on, and thus heal the rift. EEng 17:53, 18 March 2019 (UTC)