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Archive 1

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Israeli settlements

An IP has been trying to remove these settlements from the article, saying this is a political and not a civil matter. I am leaning towards accepting this viewpoint, the settlements do not appear to match the description in the lede of the article. I would like to see a sourced reference that labels Israeli settlers as "squatters" - something other than from an opinion piece. Has any newspaper called them such? Ifnord (talk) 15:59, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi thanks for opening the disucssion. So let's take the definition of squatting as mentioned currently in the lead of the article: Squatting is the action of occupying an abandoned or unoccupied area of land or a building, usually residential, that the squatter does not own, rent or otherwise have lawful permission to use. The section under debate has four references: The first one has a useful quote given, saying "The international community has taken a critical view of both deportations and settlements as being contrary to international law" (Roberts, Adam (1990). "Prolonged Military Occupation: The Israeli-Occupied Territories Since 1967". The American Journal of International Law. American Society of International Law. 84 (1): 85–86. doi:10.2307/2203016); The second has a quote saying "the establishment of the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory has been considered illegal by the international community and by the majority of legal scholars" (Pertile, Marco (2005). "'Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory': A Missed Opportunity for International Humanitarian Law?". In Conforti, Benedetto; Bravo, Luigi (eds.). The Italian Yearbook of International Law. 14. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers. p. 141. ISBN 978-90-04-15027-0). The third reference is entitled "Settlers evacuate disputed Hebron building after squatting for 8 months" and the fourth is "Hague prosecutor issues war crime warning on Bedouin village demolition". To me it's clear that the references back the inclusion of this section in the article about squatting, because they are discussing occupation of land and buildings regarded by the international community generally as illegal. Further, in the specific matter of the Hebron building it is explicitly named squatting in the Times of Israel). Happy to discuss further. Mujinga (talk) 16:11, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

The Times of Israel is the exact, sourced reference that I was looking for. Thank-you for pointing it out. It appears obvious now that these qualify as squats, at least in some areas/situations. Ifnord (talk) 16:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Historical Squatting

The current focus of this article is on modern day squatting (ie, modern day occupation of abandoned buildings etc. Squatting, however, has a longer history than that, and in that context usually refers to taking up residence on unoccupied and un-owned land on the American frontier. As an example, the Big_Bottom_massacre article refers to "A group of about thirty-six Company settlers had gone upriver from Marietta, squatting east of the Muskingum on land where the Company did not hold title."

It would be helpful if the present article were expanded to cover this type of historical squatting. TwelveGreat (talk) 14:17, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi yes I agree "historical squatting" should also be covered in more detail for sure. However, this page is already 100k and needs to be the overview of the global phenomenon which then links to other pages. For example regarding Australia, it links to Squatting in Australia which covers modern day squatting and to Squatting (Australian history) which covers settler colonialism. As regards the US, there already is Squatting in the United States which currently covers historical and modern squatting. So mention of Big Bottom massacre would prob fit best there. Cheers, Mujinga (talk) 20:42, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Improving the page

Graywalls, you have deleted some content and added some tags. This page gets quite a lot of drive-by additions so it's always good to prune it back, but as a whole I'm not seeing much original research or unreliable sourcing, please be more specific. On the Turkey section, I reverted the deletion since there were more sources than squat.net. Squat.net is based on WP:USERGENERATED content, but what we have here is WP:SELFSOURCE; the article isn't based primarily on these citations, they are being used to report the existence or eviction of these projects, which seems fine. Anyhow, I'll give the article a read now, definitely the 'see also' section can be pared back for starters. Mujinga (talk) 09:37, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Squat.net is squatting themed equivalent of Weebly and Blogspot in which some randos post stuff, not verified published experts. This makes it an unreliable source and do not comply with our sourcing guidelines not just in terms of reliability, but for due weight too. I run across this issue with rail fan that puts things into train articles in fan POV too. You're splitting hair with USERG and SPS, because there's little difference between a website under control of some random squatting advocate vs forum posts. Something worth noing in WP:SPS is that... if whatever contents is worth talking about, someone else would've already covered it. You objected sources beyond squat.net was removed. Well edit summary isn't going to let me write a five page summary. http://sosyalsavas.org.. same difference. There are other places for posting fan based contents. Graywalls (talk) 10:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I am not "splitting hairs" I am quoting policy I am sorry if that doesn't fit to your view. Your edit summary now appears to have been purposefully misleading, if you had just deleted squat links then it would have been fitting. The deleted links I replaced from istanbulstories.net and bianet are reliable in my opinion. "if whatever contents is worth talking about, someone else would've already covered it" - did you even bother checking? Mujinga (talk) 11:32, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@Mujinga:, I see you've been importing references but as you do so, are you reading through every single one of them so they directly support what's in the prose? Graywalls (talk) 10:22, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@Graywalls: are you reading through every single one of them so they directly support what's in the prose please assume good faith, of course I am checking the sources I am adding. This article seems to have a problem with sentences with blue links not being referenced, so I am simply importing the refs, having checked them. Incidentally, this is something you could have done instead of whacking very vague tags on the top of the article. You still haven't answered my request for clarification, in my opinion the South America and Spain sections need some work and I'll hopefully get to that now. I am struggling to assume good faith on your part on this edit, but I'll put it down to ignorance not ill will on your part, since you seem to have a thing against big see also sections, yet ironically enough your edit has just trashed the work I did to prune that section. I would suggest Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle as a guide here ... you were bold, I reverted, now we are discussing, it doesn't help for you to revert again. I've also put an inuse tag on the article since I am working on it and would ask you not to revert me again without prior talk page discussion.Mujinga (talk) 11:30, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

It might look like from edit history but it actually took a bit to realize it as we were editing different parts of it.. .and not really reverting one another. Graywalls (talk) 11:38, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

You asserted "I reverted the deletion since there were more sources than squat.net." but instead of re-insert just the other stuff, you re-inserting everything including that squat.net stuff in addition to removing my maintenance template objecting to the quality of sources. I'm struggling to assume you're not trying to push your version seeing you re-inserted squat.net again. When something is pulled, it is on the person reinserting to reliably support the contents they're adding back in per WP:BURDEN. Graywalls (talk) 11:53, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Look, if you are going to quote policy at me, you should take care not to make edits like this and this, where (as already explained) the edit summaries are far from descriptive of what you actually did. I also already replied about squat.net, quoting policy and you described my reply as "splitting hairs". I'm struggling to assume you're not trying to push your version seeing you re-inserted squat.net again. LOL maybe spend a bit less time trying to fathom my evil intentions - I actually just deleted a squat.net link with the edit summary "‎Turkey: delete Atopya project website, unneeded link". Perhaps, just perhaps, if you had made an edit like that instead of deleting two entire paragraphs, this whole section of discussion would be unnecessary. Mujinga (talk) 12:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Do what you gotta do. I'll look at the changes when your series of edits are done and I'll look at what links you have used to replace "The deleted links I replaced from istanbulstories.net and bianet are reliable in my opinion." those two sites so I can comment. I'll check everything over when I have time. I only asked if you were checking the contents of each source against the prose, because they were getting added very quickly, certainly much much quicker than I could go through and verify. Graywalls (talk) 12:24, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

(arbitrary break)

@Mujinga:, ok so which specific sources did you have questions on? Graywalls (talk) 14:41, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean, it was you querying reliability of sources, so I asked you which ones you were talking about. Mujinga (talk) 01:08, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Squat.net and other sources

@Mujinga:, I object to all contents based on this website as well as some of the other obscure sources that don't meet reliable sources guideline. Graywalls (talk) 02:13, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

That's not a good position to take when I have already pointed you to WP:SELFSOURCE. With the mostly user generated content on squat.net, it really depends how it is being used. The citation to Atopya's own website was obviously not that useful and I deleted it myself. The citation for the eviction of Caferağa is fine in my opinion since "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves" and I'm assuming neither of us speak Turkish to find local sources.

With "other obscure sources" it would be better if you name them, since there are over 100 citations on this article. I have to suppose you mean istanbulstories.net and that site to me is a reliable secondary source, not the best but not the worst.

I will also ask you a second time not to use inflammatory language like bullshit, garbage, junk. It doesn't help your case much, this isn't a battleground, or at least it isn't for me, I'm here to build an encyclopedia.

On the "according to a neighbour" quote, I recently put that in simply as a means to remove the person's name, if you don't think it helps, that's fine. The important thing is to record the existence of the squat, not the comment. So I'll re-add that. Mujinga (talk) 01:25, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Mujinga:I disagree about the use of contents from squat.net; which I liken it to essentially depreciated indymedia.org. I looked at the pages and they are most definitely primary source and reporting the contents from blogs is not a representative of reliably published point of view. If you're chronicling the happenings reported by some blog, you're presenting things from the editorial decision to talk about things reliable media does not. Graywalls (talk) 04:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Graywalls, thanks for adding the fringesite tag to the Ireland section, I've easily found a better reference for Disco Disco. That's a great way to highlight contestable sources and I much prefer that to the "Unreliable sources" tag which I have removed since it is really not clear which sources you are referring to there, this article currently has 137 references. As I hope you have seen, I have been working to improve the article recently and constructive edits are welcome. Maybe we have to agree to disagree on squat.net since you still haven't engaged with my policy-based argument on WP:SELFSOURCE. Regarding the Caferağa squatnet link, this isn't "some blog", this is the project itself reporting its demise. Mujinga (talk) 12:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I addressed you regarding the use of Independent_Media_Center on my talk page in response to your message. Indymedia.org is related to that. The consensus is that that source is disreputable. It is about halfway down in WP:RSP. I'm here to build an encyclopedia and I consider the removal of information that don't conform to the stringent sourcing guidelines an improvement by trimming away fringe view and unreliable or undue information. To call my effort "trashed" as said in your directed edit specifically referencing my edit "(redo edits trashed by a bad revert, see talk Talk:Squatting#Improving_the_page)" is a personal insult and this is not the same as calling sources and contents derived from those sources junk Graywalls (talk) 04:25, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Article assessment

Hi @Graywalls:, regarding your edit with the summary who did the article assessment? I looked at the assessment quality and I disagree that it's a B; given all these sources like indymedia.org, squat.net, wordpress, etc. i find this a bad faith edit and want to discuss this with you further. Surely you know you can click "view history" and check the talk page edits. If you do so, you will see this edit with the summary Assessment (B): banner shell, Squatting, Cooperatives, Crime, Economics, Human rights, Law, Philosophy, Sociology, Urban studies and planning (Rater) by me. "Rater" means I used the rater plugin, which machine-judges articles for rating. It gives this article B. So do I, based on the WP:SQUAT criteria. These are listed here. Using these criteria I find this article B and wonder why you keep on (twice now) rating it C, since I see it meeting all the B criteria. Please expand on your rationale, because saying "given all these sources like indymedia.org, squat.net, wordpress, etc." is laughable - there are precisely 1 of each of indymedia, wordpress and squat.net amongst 134 other refs. And we are actually already in a debate about two of these refs, with me arguing for their retention. As always, I'm happy to collaborate to improve this article or explain my reasoning further. Mujinga (talk) 10:26, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Your accusation of "bad faith" edit when I have already explained multiple times and you continue to put back in questioned sources until its proven otherwise to your expectation, then reverting it and calling those edits are "trashing" the article is a bad faith edit. Graywalls (talk) 12:06, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

As with the section above, you aren't actually responding to what I am saying. You seem to be gearing up for a fight instead, which is unfortunate. Mujinga (talk) 15:21, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

You're calling my edits "trashing" and such, perhaps because you don't like them. I am trying to remove undue contents while providing proper explanations and it's going up against the reverse onus process even though the guidelines say the burden is on people looking to INCLUDE disputed contents. It seems as you "don't hear" the guidelines and consensus that you do not like. Continuing to insert these contents are fueling the disagreements. Graywalls (talk) 15:51, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Uh huh alright ... well you are definitely in the wrong place sir. Here we are supposed to be discussing why you think the article should be assessed as C. My reasons for it being B have already been expressed. Mujinga (talk) 16:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

C, because: "The article is substantial but is still missing important content or contains much irrelevant material. The article should have some references to reliable sources, but may still have significant problems or require substantial cleanup. The article cites more than one reliable source and is better developed in style, structure, and quality than Start-Class, but it fails one or more of the criteria for B-Class. It may have some gaps or missing elements; need editing for clarity, balance, or flow; or contain policy violations, such as bias or original research. Articles on fictional topics are likely to be marked as C-Class if they are written from an in-universe perspective. It is most likely that C-Class articles have a reasonable encyclopedic style." from WP:ASSESS. Emphasis added by me. Policy violation being use of sources that have been challenged on which you have not established consensus, but keeps re-introducing against WP:ONUS, Balance/bias being the use of contents of POV sources. Graywalls (talk) 16:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

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