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| ::::::{{re|Nardog}} {{IPA|}}, or using our system {{IPA|}} (the length marks can be a bit confusing, yes). But the woman sounds like a (very proficient but still) non-native speaker of English to me (or am I trippin'?) ] (]) 15:41, 22 October 2020 (UTC) | ::::::{{re|Nardog}} {{IPA|}}, or using our system {{IPA|}} (the length marks can be a bit confusing, yes). But the woman sounds like a (very proficient but still) non-native speaker of English to me (or am I trippin'?) ] (]) 15:41, 22 October 2020 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::I hear the fleece vowel, but I don't think the material is reliable enough to use as a source. We don't need IPA, but some sort of written pronunciation is going to be better than relying on our ears, which is a form of original research. — ] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"></sub></small>]]</span> 15:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC) | :::::::I hear the fleece vowel, but I don't think the material is reliable enough to use as a source. We don't need IPA, but some sort of written pronunciation is going to be better than relying on our ears, which is a form of original research. — ] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"></sub></small>]]</span> 15:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::I agree in principle, except that written representations by non-experts are rarely usable as they often neglect to indicate stress and vowel reduction and that we do often cite audio recordings as sources for names in the absence of better sources. But given the response in this thread, I acknowledge a better source is needed to reinstate the notation (whatever its form would be). ] (]) 16:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::We don't take the developer's pronunciation as the official pronunciation as the game's title. Even if we include IPA in the lead, it should be the one that you can find in a dictionary. But as I have mentioned above, if we are already using the correct IPA, there is no point mentioning it here, because this piece of information should be put in ] rather than here. ] (]) 15:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC) | ::::::We don't take the developer's pronunciation as the official pronunciation as the game's title. Even if we include IPA in the lead, it should be the one that you can find in a dictionary. But as I have mentioned above, if we are already using the correct IPA, there is no point mentioning it here, because this piece of information should be put in ] rather than here. ] (]) 15:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC) | ||
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Lots of games can be played in multiple languages, and "specialist sources"...?
@OceanHok: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your edit summary's basic lack of relation the content of your revert was the result of the limit on edit summaries' character-count, but it would be appreciated if you could explain your edit in a bit more detail on the talk page in such circumstances. Here are some points related to your edit that you might want to explain but were not touched upon in your edit summary:
- Eurogamer is not a specialist source on Japanese history, but that's not even related to your most recent revert, so it's not clear why you brought up the claim that it's a "specialist source in VG"
- The fact that the North American version of the game can (apparently?) be played in Japanese doesn't seem noteworthy -- lots of games have such an option.
- That the Japanese version of the game is different from the English version is interesting and probably noteworthy, but the Eurogamer source doesn't seem to make such a point or even be aware of it.
- Misplaced Pages should not be making the claim that the developers consulted "cultural experts" in order to make the game "accurate to Japanese history and culture" without a source actually written by someone qualified to make such a claim. We have a large number of articles on the Man'yōshū, but to the best of my knowledge none of them cite popular media sources for the clearly bogus claim that it is "Japan's oldest poetry anthology".
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:51, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- Ghost is a modern 2020 video game, a fictional piece of work. It is not history. This statement has nothing to do with Japanese history, because it concerns only how Sucker Punch made the game. In this case, a WP:VG/RS source like Eurogamer is the specialist source, because it is about video game development, NOT Japanese history.
- Actually most western made games don't have Japanese dub, and in the case of Ghost, it is inspired by samurai cinema. Therefore, mentioning that the game has Japanese dub is probably noteworthy (or else Eurogamer won't run a unique article for it)
- That the Japanese version of the game is different from the English version is interesting and probably noteworthy, but the Eurogamer source doesn't seem to make such a point or even be aware of it. - Even I am not aware of it. I am not sure what's the problem. Are you expecting the source to cover everything in this game? Eurogamer wants to run a story that informs players Japanese audio is available. They did just that and no more (which is aboslutely fine). If you can find a source that supports this, then go ahead and add this. Otherwise, I am not sure what is the issue.
- The claim is made by the developers (Sucker Punch) who made the game. They claimed that they have consulted cultural experts, and they are qualified to make that statement. Vice reported on that. I see no issue. They are certainly not lying.
- All in all, I think you are a bit misguided here. Ghost of Tsushima is not about history or about literature. It is a video game (a type of pop culture) that was merely inspired by Japanese history. You don't need specialist source that deal with actual history because it is irrelevant. OceanHok (talk) 15:46, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
- The idea that the statement that the developers
ensure that the title would be an accurate representation of feudal Japan
has "nothing to do with Japanese history" is clearly wrong. Misplaced Pages articles on films, novels, video games, etc. that touch on Japanese history all have to represent Japanese history as accurately as our Japanese history articles, even if it is only a passing reference; if you cannot find a reliable scholarly source on Japanese, then the wording needs to be altered to reflect the source, such asaccording to an article in Eurogamer, the developers said that...
- I assume you mean the North American releases of most "western made games"? Do you have a source for any of this? I grew up in Ireland and I distinctly recall Asterix and the Great Rescue being playable in multiple European languages, and my point was not specifically about "Japanese dubs". If you are not sure what the issue is with the difference between the Japanese and English versions of the game, then I would encourage you to read our articles on waka (poetry) and haiku/hokku/haikai.
- If our article actually made that claim, that would be fine; but it doesn't say
Sucker Punch said that they had consulted cultural experts
; it saysSucker Punch consulted cultural experts
. - Your claim only applies to pop culture articles that don't currently make claims about scholarly topics in Misplaced Pages's voice. Please rewrite the relevant portions of the article if you are going to use this argument.
- The idea that the statement that the developers
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:05, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- All that being said, I'm tired of this now. I'm going to go write other articles. If you want to use my advice above to improve this article, that's fine. If you don't, that's your business. I would, however, encourage you to be more careful about removing maintenance tags in the future. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:12, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- This will never be a scholarly article so I am not sure why we are having this discussion at all. There is absolutely no information about actual Japanese history (not even passing mention) in this article that demands historians' verification. I also cannot find RS that says the Japanese version of the game is different so that's original research. OceanHok (talk) 09:54, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- All Misplaced Pages articles are (supposed to be) scholarly articles. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:41, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- This will never be a scholarly article so I am not sure why we are having this discussion at all. There is absolutely no information about actual Japanese history (not even passing mention) in this article that demands historians' verification. I also cannot find RS that says the Japanese version of the game is different so that's original research. OceanHok (talk) 09:54, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- All that being said, I'm tired of this now. I'm going to go write other articles. If you want to use my advice above to improve this article, that's fine. If you don't, that's your business. I would, however, encourage you to be more careful about removing maintenance tags in the future. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:12, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- @OceanHok: Again, your edit summary doesn't make sense -- not only does the Connell interview show that the developers were publicizing the poetry thing, and the fact that the Japanese and English versions were different, at least several days before the game was released (actually the Connell interview talks about the "Japanese version" as in the version available in Japan -- it doesn't talk about the Japanese dub of the game available in North America), but even if what you said were accurate it would just mean that pre-release sources that were contradicted by more recent sources would now be considered unreliable. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:54, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Additionally, you are continuing to turn WP:BURDEN on its head -- I didn't try to add anything to this article at first, and what happened was that you removed maintenance tags without performing your due diligence or providing a policy-based reasoning. It is quite unbecoming for someone who has been editing Misplaced Pages as long as you to be sincerely misunderstanding basic Misplaced Pages policy on this level. The content you added and are still defending is not attributed to sources that are reliable for said content -- the BURDEN is on the one adding or maintaining the content, never on the one removing it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- I really have no idea why we are having this discussion. Eurogamer mentions nothing about the differences between the American and the Japanese version, so it is not used to support that fact as a reference. The fact that the English version of the game comes with Japanese dub is not relevant to the fact that the Japanese version has a different type of poem or whatever. They are two separate facts and therefore, required two separate sources for verification. Even if they are regional differences, Japanese audio is still available (Jin is still speaking Japanese. I don't think he is suddenly speaking Chinese or Korean when he recites the poem), so the content from the Eurogamer source is still correct. Your source supports the differences between versions well, and the Eurogamer souce supports the Japanese audio part well. Failed verification is not a problem (Eurogamer stated it clearly), and better verification is not needed (because it is a WP:VG/RS already).
- I was talking about WP:BURDEN because you take a jab at me with your edit summary, saying that "No idea why this was invoked on the talk page or why OceanHok didn't try a simple Google search before claiming that no reliable sources were available for the claim". It was you who wanted to add the poem part, not me. It was not my responsibility to do a "simple Google search" when you failed to provide a source here at the talk page (and the souce you provided later when you add this to the page is in Japanese. How the hell am I supposed to find that?).
- If the only difference is that Jin recites different poems in this quest, then this difference is slight and trivial. Most RS would not remark on such small and trival details. It is good that you find a Japanese souce that covers it, but naturally, most sources won't care about this. This is an action game, not a reflection on literature. OceanHok (talk) 05:16, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
It was you who wanted to add the poem part, not me.
You are turning my comment on its head -- what I said was "if X is to be included in the article, then f(X) needs to be included as well, since X is not by itself interesting or encyclopedic information" -- my first choice was obviously always to simply remove X.It was not my responsibility to do a "simple Google search"
It is very much your responsibility to provide sufficient sourcing for content you wish to include in the article, including any peripheral content necessary to meet WP:ENC and WP:WEIGHT.the souce you provided later when you add this to the page is in Japanese. How the hell am I supposed to find that?
Maybe don't engage in Misplaced Pages debates over use of the Japanese language if you are unable or unwilling to engage with Japanese sources and editors who can read them?If the only difference is that Jin recites different poems in this quest, then this difference is slight and trivial
You cannot make that assertion if you are not going to do the research to understand how significant this difference is.most sources won't care about this
Actually, I haven't found a single Japanese source apparently written by someone who was aware of the change (most Japanese video game reviewers, naturally, play the game in Japanese and don't engage in critical translation analysis) that didn't make a big deal out of it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:33, 12 October 2020 (UTC)- I never intend to add the part about the differences between Japanese version and the English version into the article. So that's certainly not my responsibility to provide sufficient sourcing for it. The only issue I have with you is your edit summary, which I believed is not written in good faith. I don't oppose using Japanese sources in the article but your suggestion that I was expected to find and understand Japanese sources just by Google search is absurd and ridiculous. I am not sure what is the entire point of this discussion at all. The only two points I disagree with you throughout this discussion is your judgement that this article needs specialist sources and your claim that Eurogamer/Vice are not good sources. I am ok with you adding whatever you want into this article as long as you back your content up with reliable sources. OceanHok (talk) 10:40, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Hashimoto source
As far as I can tell, Hashimoto is not historian of Japanese politics or of cinema, nor a professional political commentator, and everything I've always read about Kurosawa has indicated quite the opposite of the conclusions Hashimoto's article draws -- Kurosawa was a generally left-leaning, pro-union film-maker whose Tora no O o Fumu Otokotachi was banned by the wartime government, and many of his later films are obvious left-wing, anti-samurai polemics. It seems like Hashimoto is using this video game as a jumping-off point to make an argument about contemporary Japanese politics, but unwittingly (pardon the pun) smears a famous mid-20th-century leftist in the process; our article doesn't directly include the "the game inherits this from Kurosawa films" claim, but it seems our use of the word "unwittingly" is meant to allude to this.
TLDR, there are two issues here: Hashimoto is being cited as a reliable source for commentary for which he is perhaps not considered a reliable source, and one of his main assertions, which we adopt kinda-indirectly, is demonstrably false.
Thoughts?
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:26, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Inclusion of pronunciation respelling and inaccurate (impossible!) IPA key in lead sentence
@OceanHok and Nardog: I agree with OceanHok's removal of the pronunciation key. The primary rational for maintaining it -- that a lot of Americans and consequently other westerners mispronounce a lot of other Japanese words by stressing the penultimate syllable -- doesn't make sense, since the same people are going to mispronounce the place-name in this game's name as those who mispronounce the name of the actual place, and it's no more wrong here. And given that the content was removed more than a month ago, having been initially added months/years (?) before the game was released when hardly anyone was monitoring the article, means the WP:STATUSQUO argument also doesn't work.
Moreover, while I can't establish when exactly the current version was added, certainly the one that was there the longest (having been present on 6 March and 20 June), was /ˈtsuʃiˌmɑː/ -- the claim that /ˈtsuːʃiːmə/ TSOO-shee-mə is the legitimate status quo is a little hard to swallow, and I don't even know how to pronounce "ˈtsuːʃiː"; "ʃiː" definitely is not the correct Japanese pronunciation of シ, and how does one "stress" ツ while also lengthening シ? Even if a pronunciation key for this one word is to be included, it shouldn't take up as much space in the lead sentence than the title , and an explanation should be provided for the change from /ˈtsuʃiˌ/ to /ˈtsuːʃiː/ (I can take or leave the change from /ɑː/ to /ə/ -- it's a "given" that this is how it is mispronounced in English). I would also prefer to see a reliable source explicitly claiming that the first syllable is supposed to be stressed in English, or some such -- I'm not going to sit through a 40-minute YouTube video unless I'm given a specific timestamp to check, but would be right in assuming that it doesn't verify the specific content claim so much as showing some people pronouncing it a certain way?
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Just searched Nardog's user name on the page history, which led me to found exactly when the current version was added. It was removed 43 days, 15 hours, 39 minutes later. That version then remained intact for 37 days, 1 hour, 59 minutes. Having come this far, I figured I'd check when the original was added, last December, when the game wasn't out yet and probably far fewer people were watching this article. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The notation was first added in December and removed in September, so just in terms of whether to have a pronunciation in the article at all, whatever its exact content might be, the status quo is to have one. /ˈtsuʃiˌmɑː/ is an impossible notation at least in {{IPAc-en}}, because the Help:IPA/English key defines /u/ and /i/ as weak vowels that can appear only in unstressed prevocalic or word-final positions.
- You can hear developers of the game pronounce Tsushima in the video at 9:42, 9:44, 10:42, 11:02, and 13:48, and they all pronounce it /ˈtsuːʃiːmə/ (Wang is apparently a non-native speaker so it's not quite the same, but roughly). On YouGlish, you can hear English speakers' pronunciation of Tsushima is not consistent, especially with regard to the placement of stress. So the English pronunciation of Tsushima according to the developers themselves is a useful piece of information for readers.
- We're not talking about the Japanese word but the English word of Japanese origin (and /ʃiː/ is as close as English gets to Japanese ; as Help:IPA/English notes, the length mark doesn't mean the sound is consistently long in production—it's just underlying representation). There are many, many English words with /iː/ following a stressed syllable: Even if you disregard compounds like heartbeat, mainstream, seaweed, spreadsheet, sunbeam, there are axes, concrete, feces, herpes, hygiene, morpheme, morphine, nares, phoneme, rabies, series, species, etc. Nardog (talk) 12:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- So, you are not going to address any of my points and just talk past me? The main thing you say that I hadn't already rebutted before you said it is
We're not talking about the Japanese word but the English word of Japanese origin
, but that's patently ridiculous -- it's not "an English word" but rather the name of a place that actually exists in Japan, and it's pretty clear that there isn't one "the English pronunciation". You can clearly hear at 9:42 and 9:44 that he most definitely is not saying /ʃiː/. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:48, 20 October 2020 (UTC)- Addendum: The first several examples in that YouGlish link clearly show people talking about an unrelated battle that took place in the Russo-Japanese War, etc., mostly pronouncing it as /tsuːˈʃiːmə/, obviously very differently from the game developers in the cited YouTube clip. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:20, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Precisely because there isn't one "the English pronunciation" of the name of the island, it benefits readers to spell out the English pronunciation of the name of the game, which was made by an American company, according to the developers.
- Then what is he saying? It sounds like a tense high front vowel (i.e. /iː/ in Help:IPA/English's notation) to me. Nardog (talk) 18:35, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- To my ear it sounds more like a schwa /ə/ (Chris Zimmerman at 13:48). Maybe /i/ (more Jason Connell at 9:42 and 9:44). Definitely not /iː/ -- should I edit the article to force readers to pronounce it the way I think Connell is pronouncing it and to say that your pronunciation is "wrong"? And actually, "the pronunciation" used by "the developers" as you point to differs between them -- Joanna Wong is apparently a native Mandarin speaker, and her pronunciation is slightly different from that of Jason Connell. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:01, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Instead of dwelling into academic discussion about how we should pronounce Tsushima, getting the pronounciation right is not the key point of this article. This discussion should happen in the actual article about Tsushima Island, which doesn't have the IPA pronounciation in the lead (unlike Tokyo or Osaka). OceanHok (talk) 15:54, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- This is a game made by English-speaking people working for an American company that bears an English title, one word in which is not familiar to most English speakers. So of course the pronunciation by the people who made it is relevant for this article, especially if it disagrees with an established pronunciation or if there's no established pronunciation. Nardog (talk) 15:23, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Again, /iː/ in {{IPAc-en}} doesn't represent an invariably long vowel, it's just the phonemic notation for the FLEECE vowel. /i/ is impossible in this position because it represents a situation where there's a dialectal variation between /iː/ and /ɪ/ in an unstressed prevocalic or morpheme-final position, as exemplified by happy and mediocre in Help:IPA/English. @Aeusoes1, LiliCharlie, J. 'mach' wust, Sol505000, and Wolfdog: What do you hear at 9:42, 9:44, 10:42, 11:02, and 13:48 in this video? Nardog (talk) 15:23, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Nardog: , or using our system (the length marks can be a bit confusing, yes). But the woman sounds like a (very proficient but still) non-native speaker of English to me (or am I trippin'?) Sol505000 (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- I hear the fleece vowel, but I don't think the material is reliable enough to use as a source. We don't need IPA, but some sort of written pronunciation is going to be better than relying on our ears, which is a form of original research. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree in principle, except that written representations by non-experts are rarely usable as they often neglect to indicate stress and vowel reduction and that we do often cite audio recordings as sources for names in the absence of better sources. But given the response in this thread, I acknowledge a better source is needed to reinstate the notation (whatever its form would be). Nardog (talk) 16:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- I hear the fleece vowel, but I don't think the material is reliable enough to use as a source. We don't need IPA, but some sort of written pronunciation is going to be better than relying on our ears, which is a form of original research. — Ƶ§œš¹ 15:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- We don't take the developer's pronunciation as the official pronunciation as the game's title. Even if we include IPA in the lead, it should be the one that you can find in a dictionary. But as I have mentioned above, if we are already using the correct IPA, there is no point mentioning it here, because this piece of information should be put in Tsushima Island rather than here. OceanHok (talk) 15:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Nardog: , or using our system (the length marks can be a bit confusing, yes). But the woman sounds like a (very proficient but still) non-native speaker of English to me (or am I trippin'?) Sol505000 (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Instead of dwelling into academic discussion about how we should pronounce Tsushima, getting the pronounciation right is not the key point of this article. This discussion should happen in the actual article about Tsushima Island, which doesn't have the IPA pronounciation in the lead (unlike Tokyo or Osaka). OceanHok (talk) 15:54, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- To my ear it sounds more like a schwa /ə/ (Chris Zimmerman at 13:48). Maybe /i/ (more Jason Connell at 9:42 and 9:44). Definitely not /iː/ -- should I edit the article to force readers to pronounce it the way I think Connell is pronouncing it and to say that your pronunciation is "wrong"? And actually, "the pronunciation" used by "the developers" as you point to differs between them -- Joanna Wong is apparently a native Mandarin speaker, and her pronunciation is slightly different from that of Jason Connell. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:01, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- So, you are not going to address any of my points and just talk past me? The main thing you say that I hadn't already rebutted before you said it is