Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:57, 5 January 2007

Hinduism Project‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hinduism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HinduismWikipedia:WikiProject HinduismTemplate:WikiProject HinduismHinduism Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Archives
October 2005 – May 2006 December 2006

Misplaced Pages Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Misplaced Pages Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of[REDACTED] to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion

The group indicated above was recently revitalized for, among other things, the purpose of working on those articles whose content is such that the article does not fall within the scope of any particular denomination. To most effectively do this, however, we would benefit greatly if there were at least one member from this Project working on those articles. On that basis, I would encourage and welcome any member of this Project willing to work on those articles to join the Religion WikiProject. Thank you. Badbilltucker 22:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Use of Swastika

Recently an editor received a template on his talk page with a Hindu Swastika on it . This editor associates the swastika with Hitler and the Nazi holocaust. I believe that many people in Europe, the US, and elsewhere would have similar reactions. Although pride in one's heritage is natural, I don't believe that Misplaced Pages is necessarily the best place to express that pride, and some expressions of pride may be divisive and offensive. I don't see significant informative value added to articles by having a swastika on various templates. My suggestion is that templates with Swastikas be modified to only have Aum. Please comment. --BostonMA 00:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to this change. The swastika used on the template is sufficiently stylized and has those dots that differentiate it from the 3rd Reich's version of the symbol, and this difference is apparent to any observer. The swastika has a long and varied history, let's not ban it from perfectly relevant contexts because of the 1 decade where it was used by the nazis. --tjstrf talk 00:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we should keep it. But there should be a sentence in the article mentioning that it is an ancient symbol, which would make clear that it long pre-dated the bastardized Nazi use of it. ॐ Priyanath talk 00:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The swastika is a minor Hindu symbol, far less prevalent than, say, the Aum. Choosing the swastika to represent Hinduism on so many Hinduism-related templates seems akin to having a 'Liberty Bell' or bald eagle on all U.S.-related template pages, rather than an American Flag or Seal of the President, etc. This is of course to say nothing of the interpretation Europeans have of the swastika. The ubiquitous use of the swastika on Hindu-related templates seems not only insensitive to Europeans, Africans and North Americans, it also is less representative of Hinduism than the Aum. I recommend replacing it in large part (not necessarily in toto) with the Aum. I attempted to do so, only to be rolled back by User:DaGizza. I won't engage in petty edit warring, and hope that cool heads and intellect will prevail. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Note: I've created and uploaded a red version of the 'aum' symbol, to use the red color User:DaGizza mentioned as being more auspicious for Hindus than the black of the original 'Aum.png'. I'm hopeful User:DaGizza and others will see this as more good faith, and act accordingly in the best interests of our global readers.

Thank you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur that the symbol has a dark history when presented without context. Since we cannot hope to provide the context in the template (unlike say the Swastika or Hindu Iconography article), I support substituting the symbol. I would also hope that that this will not devolve into an issue of grandstanding, and cooler heads will prevail. Abecedare 01:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

One thing. The Nazi symbol is very different from swastika. Nazi symbol faces the opposite direction, is tilted by an angle and is colored black. Hindu, Jain and Romani swastikas all face in opposite direction and are colored saffron, not black. There are many houses of Hindus in teh west that have swastikas adorned on it and no objections from Jewish residents etc. Only problem is if skinheads etc. put opposite-facing Nazi symbol, which is illegal in Europe etc. Rumpelstiltskin223 01:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

True enough - however, I don't believe the sensitivities of many Europeans, Africans or North Americans are assuaged by merely reversing the orientation of the swastika, nor by the mere presence of the dots. Also - as I've mentioned before the swastika is a minor Hindu symbol, and it really doesn't represent Hinduism with the totality or ubiquity of 'aum'. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is not entirely true. Examples of "backwards" swastikas can be found all over...true, they're only about 1/10 or so as popular as the one being discussed here, but the nazis' swastika was not a new "invention". Tomer 01:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I don't think what Rumpelstiltskin223 stated is even universally true in practice. Here are some pictures which show how widely the Nazi and Hindu swastika can vary and why we should not rely on nuances in order to avoid unnecessarily being hurtful: A red Nazi swastika, A non tilted Nazi swastika, A counter-clockwise Hindu Swastika, A clockwise Hindu Swastika (in black and white) ...

• I'd feel a lot better about this discussion if it weren't for the user in question canvassing opinions via a rather vitriolic message to the talk pages of seemingly random Judaism-related projectspace pages and quite a few of our Jewish editors. I trust that they will be educated enough to understand the context. --tjstrf talk 01:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
• I'd feel a lot better about this discussion if it weren't for the user in question canvassing opinions via a rather vitriolic rhetorically charged and emotional message to the talk pages of seemingly random Judaism-related projectspace pages and quite a few of our Jewish editors. I trust that they will be educated enough to understand the context. --tjstrf talk 01:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't call that post 'vitriolic'. I'd call it impassioned - but I'm not sure I see vitriol in IZAK's post. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicted) Perhaps vitriolic is not the ideal word. Among other things, I found his message insultingly ignorant, especially the part where he says " is VERY far from neutral, no matter in what context it is used". Plus he basically accuses all the Hindu editors of incivility. --tjstrf talk 02:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your objection to that comment. In a purely Hindu context, the swastika is probably a lot closer to neutral (or at least not loaded with Nazism) than it is seen in the West). I apologize if with my assent it appeared I was meaning to express a racist perspective. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• I've known about the swastika there for quite some time, and do not find it even mildly offensive. I think, in fact, that it's more than just a little bit disingenuous to decry a religion's symbology, especially one that has enjoyed importance across millennia, as a symbol of life, no less, just because one deranged asshole who was never even remotely associated with that religion, took an adaptation of that symbol as one of the emblems for his diabolical movement. That man, whose name doesn't deserve mention in this discussion, and the movement he led to power, used other symbols as well, notably eagles and crosses. The cross, one of the foremost symbols of Christianity, for what it's worth, is a much more objectionable symbol, given the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were put to death upon them. At the same time, unlike the swastika, the cross is emblematic of death, not life. I think the effort to remove the swastikas as they appear in perfect context in Hinduism-related articles, is in extremely bad taste... the censorship it reeks of is so much more emotionally-based than logically-based that if your recommendation succeeds, I will regard it as far more catastrophic to the intellectual integrity of Misplaced Pages than proliferation of genital piercing articles. Raq zuzayim sheli... Tomer 01:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, except as I've mentioned before, I do believe that the effect in the Western world that the symbol has had since the 40's, combined with it's relatively minor status makes it a poor choice to be so widely employed to represent Hinduism. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not intend to imply that a canvassed editor is incapable of thinking for themselves, in fact the few comments I skimmed on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism were quite level-headed about the issue. Canvassing is, however, highly frowned upon and it is recommended that the targeted discussion be warned of the event. (On WP:CANVAS, which was split out from WP:SPAM recently.) --tjstrf talk 02:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The symbol should stay. Next IZAK will be going on other religious projects and telling them to take down their symbols because it reminds him of something bad that happened. If one comes down, they all should go down. I’m an atheist westerner, but I do NOT believe there is one "true" religion. Everyone can learn a little something from the doctrine or philosophy of each religion. I’ve only got one more thing to say: FREEDOM OF RELIGION. (Ghostexorcist 02:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

• Tell that to the Holocaust dead, or to their next of kin, or to some sensitive souls out there! IZAK 02:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Has it ever occurred to you that there was such a thing as a Swastika prior to the 20th century? It is in the best interests not only of the Misplaced Pages community but of the world as a whole to allow themselves to move beyond tragedies, not let them control us for the indefinite future. --tjstrf talk 02:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK: Hitler's Germany affected my family deeply, in profoundly awful ways. However, one must balance the power the Swastika has for those affected in this way with the other individuals not similarly affected. There IS a difference between the Nazi Swastika and the Hindu swastika - not the orientation nor the dots. However, the swastika is a poor choice for a 'universal symbol of Hinduism', as it's but one of a host of Hindu symbols. As a 'universal symbol of Hinduism', 'Aum' is far more applicable, and should serve the purpose without perpetuating the entire debate around the fate of those targeted by Nazis since the 30's. In short, I hope we can keep the acrimony and the righteous indignation at a level that allows us to productively address the issue of which symbol is more encyclopedic. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK: While Hitler's Germany has affected many of our families, as Ryan has stated, the swastika has been a symbol way before Hitler. As usual, you are getting way too heated and was extremely unfair to Dangerous-Boy who has graciously apologized to you so I suggest you accept it. You posted your opinion to several different editors instead of stepping back and calmly addressing the issue with the appropriate person. To be quite honest, you seem to be the only person that has a problem with this so maybe you are to one that needs to step back for awhile. MetsFan76 02:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Jewish talk objections

Hi: Since we are centralizing the discussion here, the following is posted here for other views on the subject:

From Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism#Funny Swastika:

Take a look at these templates:

• {{Hindu Links}} (top left)
• {{Hinduism small}} (bottom)
• {{HinduFestivals}} (top right)
• {{Hindu Deities and Texts}} (top right)
• {{User WikiProject Hindu mythology}} (left)

with the displayed prominently. Honestly, of all of Hinduism's symbols' did this one have to get "headline" billing on these templates? Alternatives are aplenty if one were to look around on articles listed on {{Hindu Deities and Texts}} where there are dozens of less offensive symbols that could be chosen for the same purpose. While the swastika may be ok with some Hindus, it should not be flashed around "in all innocence" because for the rest of the world that was caught up in World War II it was the symbol of literal EVIL, DEATH and DESTRUCTION emanating from the Nazis. It was Hitler's personal diabolical "symbol of choice" and for that reason it is VERY far from neutral, no matter in what context it is used. It violates Misplaced Pages:Civility to have it displayed in such an "in your face" fashion on these Hindu templates, giving it a dubious "place of pride" it does not deserve. Need one say more? IZAK 22:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a religious symbol, plain and simple. Not everyone in the world are racist or a Nazi. I understand that your hatred for what Hitler did is very passionate, but you need to stop looking at everything like it’s a plot against the Jewish people on Misplaced Pages. I'll admit that it's not a traditional-looking swastika which normally opens to the left. This is a Buddhist symbol.(Ghostexorcist 23:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC))

Hmmm: So what about the guy who posted one of the templates ({{Hindu Links}}) on my talk page, what the heck did I do to deserve a "welcoming swastika" -- a totally absurd move -- either the guy lacks total perspective and he's clue-less or he is verging on truly "Dangerours" behaviour (note his user name: User:Dangerous-Boy -- obscured with "D-Boy"). Have you ever heard of the Holocaust many people associatete that, and not Hindusim, with the swastika, any swastika, so would it make sense to plaster an image like the one below on Hindu-related pages and templates? Tactless, pointless, and bound to create ill-feeling, right? Or what do you say, swastikas are like cute stickers? IZAK 23:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC): Image:Holocaust123.JPG

IZAK, I think I understand and somewhat share your feelings, but IMHO you are overreacting here. Nazi swastika looked different and symbolized something very different. More importantly, I don't see an evidence of their intention to offend, and they seem to simply celebrate their religion. Perhaps more education/reconciliation is in order. ←Humus sapiens 00:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Humus: Thanks for your input, but for most people, even intelligent ones, "a swastika, is a swastika, is a swastika" -- I am not saying that the intention was deliberate, I am saying that this symbol is "too hot to handle" and that if they have better alternatives they should use it, as not everyone can stay calm and get educated about the nuances of swastikas when about 65 yeears ago their ancestors were murdered by the millions with hazy ("warm and fuzzy") swastikas fluttering all over the place... It's a two-way street, as we take our time getting educated (it may take about two thousand years) they also need to get educated about what it means to some other people who hate it for very good reasons. IZAK 01:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

From User talk:IZAK#Your objection to the swastika:

Hi, I saw that you raised an objection to the swastika in hinduism related templates. Although the swastika is widely used in India, I realize that it is inflammatory in Europe and the US, and perhaps other parts of the world. Although the swastika deserves a place in articles related to Hindu symbolism, I don't believe it adds significant informative content to the articles which are likely to include the templates you have identified. --BostonMA 23:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• So are you agreeing with me that it serves no purpose and should be replaced on the templates in question with something a little more cheerful ? IZAK 23:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Like for example, see the guy who posted one of the templates on my talk page, what the heck did I do to deserve a "welcoming swastika" -- a totally absurd move -- either the guy lacks total perspective and he's clue-less or he is verging on truly "Dangerours" behaviour (note his user name: User:Dangerous-Boy -- obscured with "D-Boy"). Have you ever heard of the Holocaust many people associatete that, and not Hindusim, with the swastika, any swastika, so would it make sense to plaster an image like the one below on Hindu-related pages and templates? Tactless, pointless, and bound to create ill-feeling, right? Or what do you say, swastikas are like cute stickers? IZAK 23:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC): File:Holocaust123.JPG

As I said, the swastika is widely used in India. Religious books quite often have a swastika in the front pages. Many Hindus are quite naturally proud of their heritage and the thus wish to proudly display the symbolism that is associated with that heritage. Although there is a possibility that placing the swastika on your page was intended to offend, I think it is a stretch to assume that this possibility is what definitely occured. But the intent of the editor who left the template on your page aside, yes, I agree that it would be best to use a symbol which is not so inflammatory. Sincerely, --BostonMA 23:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh I am not saying that this symbol should be banned, on the contrary, let there be articles about it that explain what it means. Many people recall that it was the symbol of the Nazi Third Reich and all the pain, suffering and trauma that the world suffered under that symbol. Hindus are free to choose many symbols, they believe in many gods, I don't believe the swastika is the symbol of Hinduism and I do not think that it is in their interests to present themselves to the world (to many other non-Hindus) under such a horrible and horrid symbol of modern Fascism. IZAK 23:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say that the swastika was the symbol of Hinduism. However, it is one of the symbols of Hinduism and is widely used. It is unnecessary for us to decide whether "it is in interests to present themselves to the world under under such a horrible and horrid symbol of modern Fascism." It is only necessary to decide whether it is appropriate for Misplaced Pages to have swastikas which do not contribute to the encyclopedic purpose of providing a source of information. --BostonMA 00:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, sounds reasonable. As long as they change it soon on all those templates. IZAK 00:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I have placed a notice at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Hinduism which is perhaps the best location for a discussion. If there are no responses, I will change the templates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BostonMA (talk • contribs)

• Very good idea, I should have thought of that myself. But first I thought I'd get some feedback from users I know. Thanks. IZAK 00:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Izak, could we please not fragment the discussion into 20,000 different pieces? If you want to inform people of the change, that's great, but please do so by making a link to the central discussion at WP:HINDU, not by reposting all of your arguments there without any central discussion link. --tjstrf talk 01:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• HI, I posted to about ten places, and I am done. I agree that the discussion should be central now. I will let them know. Thanks. IZAK 01:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Hi Izak. I've known about the swastika there for quite some time, and do not find it even mildly offensive. I think, in fact, that it's more than just a little bit disingenuous to decry a religion's symbology, especially one that has enjoyed importance across millennia, as a symbol of life, no less, just because one deranged asshole who was never even remotely associated with that religion, took an adaptation of that symbol as one of the emblems for his diabolical movement. That man, whose name doesn't deserve mention in this discussion, and the movement he led to power, used other symbols as well, notably eagles and crosses. The cross, one of the foremost symbols of Christianity, for what it's worth, is a much more objectionable symbol, given the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were put to death upon them. At the same time, unlike the swastika, the cross is emblematic of death, not life. I think the effort to remove the swastikas as they appear in perfect context in Hinduism-related articles, is in extremely bad taste... the censorship it reeks of is so much more emotionally-based than logically-based that if your recommendation succeeds, I will regard it as far more catastrophic to the intellectual integrity of Misplaced Pages than proliferation of genital piercing articles. Raq zuzayim sheli... Tomer 01:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Hi Tomer: While you may be very relaxed about this, I had not known about the existence of this until today. Imagine my shock when I see a swastika glaring down at me "in warm greeting" on my talk page, what was I being invited to I wondered. And then I see it's "only" Hinduism. Well let me tell you, if I received an invitation in the mail from ANYONE with that symbol on it, I would get VERY upset (putting it mildly) as I am sure many people would, not just Jews, but anyone who lived through or knows anything about World War II would know. I think it's just telling of the times that with the passing of "the bravest/greatest generation" as Tom Brokaw writes about them, people feel "free" to start using symbols and ideas that would never have been allowed a decade or two earlier in this context. Sure for articles it's fine, use any symbol you like, even the cows and snakes that people worship, but a swastika? That throws me big time and I don't think that you should wave it off with an academic excuse. IZAK 02:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • The swastika has been a Hindu religious symbol for some thousand years. Claiming that it must be offensive in all contexts is highly ignorant of non-Western culture, and smacks heavily of censorship. --tjstrf talk 02:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK is nothing but a BIGOT! He just equated me to a nazi on the Judaism wikiproject because I told him he needed to be educated more on the subject of the Hindu Swastika. Then he pretty much said the Nazis sent to the Jews to be educated. Can you believe this guy? (Ghostexorcist 02:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

Talk of over-reaction. And don't misquote me! I didn't "pretty much" say anything the way you report. Here is what I said "And I was also right that civilization cannot wait 2000 years to get educated. Some things are too painful and should not be abused or covered up with "education needed" that is the way all totalitarians reacted, they sent people for "re"-education"...IZAK 02:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)" Nothing about Nazis, they did not bother re-educating anyone, that was the Soviets and Chinese way. And this was my next response to you: "No, I am saying that anyone who can casually dismiss objections to the use of swastikas, evidently does not care that much about what the swastika, any swastika, meant to victims, dead and alive, of the Holocaust. I cannot fathom why you attribute "equations" to me that I never made. I mean what I say, and say what I mean. Like "Tell that to the marines." I leave "equations" for mathematicians. IZAK 02:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

And then I called you a Bigot and a racist!(Ghostexorcist 02:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

And you see I am not mad at you! Stick to the points of the discussion and be rational. I need to do some shopping for Shabbat now. See ya! IZAK 02:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I oppose the removal of the Swastika of the template(s). I personally find it a little sad to see people wanted to censor a holy Symbol just because that in the west it is seen in horror. Also if you want to get technical the Hindu Swastika and the Nazi Swastika are compleatly different. Just look at the two and see the differences. Also (I don't want to come off as offensive because I am not intending it too.) What if a pacifist suggested the removal of the Cross from all the Christianity templates because it resembles a dagger? That wouldn't make to much sense, same with the Sikh Kirpan. In my view the same applys to here too. — Arjun 02:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, keep them in, they bring credit and admiration for Hunduism... IZAK 02:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The cross is the UNIVERSAL symbol of Christianity that no-one disputes and everyone knows it was from (Roman) wood of two beams crossed to crucify people (so you are dreaming if you think it's a "dagger"), can you say the same thing about this Hindu swastika?, maybe someone wants to push that one more than a hundred other ones. No good pictures of golden Indian statues with six arms that are far more POSITIVELY indentified with Hinduism? IZAK 02:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Just for note,[REDACTED] is an encyclopedia. Meaning that this should teach that the Swastika 1. Was first associated with Hinduism 2. Has always been associated with Hinduism until the Holocaust. And in general teach us more about it. Please if you haven't done already scan through the Swastika article. This is encyclopedic. — Arjun 02:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Arjun: That is what the articles are for teach away. But to make it the official symbol of Hindusim on so may templates is not fair or honest when it is not "the" main symbol of that religion and it's offensive to most Jews and to Judaism, AFAIK. When I got a message with that hated symbol on my talk page, it was a shock. I am not about to get re-educated about a symbol that was used by the mass-killers during the Holocaust. So it's a two-way street, you also need to get "educated" that this symbol, in any way it's depicted is despised by many people because, for better or worse, Hitler adopted it for the Nazis and then they flew it on their flag as they almost destroyed the civilized world. Do you want to be associated with that, or don't you care? It is not so simple as "religious this and religious that" excuses.IZAK 03:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure IZAK realizes that. MetsFan76 02:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh hi MetsFan: Fancy meeting you here! IZAK 03:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh trust me...there is nothing fancy going on here. I actually enjoy watching your rants. It's better than FOX News which probably isn't saying much. MetsFan76 03:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Cmon Mets, I know you have me on your watch list! What you call a rant others call brilliance! ;-} IZAK 03:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course I have you on my watchlist. There's nothing I like better than coming home from a long day at work and tuning in to the IZAK Channel. I think it should be made available to Cablevision subscribers. That way, everyone can see ignorance at its best. MetsFan76 03:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK, Once you read you will note that the Swastika has been used for centuries in many different countries...not just India. I find it offensive that everyone wants to remove it just because it was used in a negative way. — Arjun 02:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Arjun: As I said, getting offended is a two-way street. IZAK 03:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Heading break in Swastika discussion

There is one thing I need to point. You may get away in replacing the Swastik's with Aums for Hinduism articles, but the Swastik is the most important symbols in another religion called Jainism. Another note, if you see the Aum page, the first line says Aum (also Om or Ohm, ) is the most sacred syllable in Hinduism,... Syllable is not symbol. The symbol of Aum is not as important as the sound it represents. The sound is more holy than the symbol. The Swastik, on the other hand is famous and significant for its shape, read Swastika for proof.

Misplaced Pages is an online encyclopedia, ie. a place of knowledge/learning. When Europeans, Jew or Gentile, come to Misplaced Pages they should learn that the Swastik is used in many other contexts, not just for Nazis. They should also learn the Eastern Swastiks were different in design. They have four dots, are in red instead of black imposed on red and is turned 45 degrees. If you say the Swastik has no purpose on a template, that is the same for the Aum. Both should be removed in that case. Gizza 02:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

DaGizza, the aum 'symbol' (not merely the syllable) is far more prevalent and universal in Hindu culture than the swastika. That is a fact. Accordingly, it's more appropriate to be used as a symbol on general Hinduism-related articles. I repeat my request for you to undo your admin rollbacks. Jainism is an entirely separate topic and I'll be sure to learn more about it, now that you've educated me about the role of the swastika in that faith.

In addition, I repeat my request for you to answer why you said "I see that you are a Jew' on my user page. Why did you jump to that conclusion? That seemed rather racist to me, irrespective of my actual faith (which frankly is not your concern). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You do realize most Hindus like jews don't you?--D-Boy 02:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, how about this suggestion ? We replace the swastica symbol from the talk-page template (i.e. something that may be placed in userspace, such as {{Hindu Links}}without sufficient context) while retaining it in mainspace templates, wher it should be clear that the symbol being used is not the Nazi swastika. Any objections ? Abecedare 02:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Why change it b/c only IZAK has a problem with it? He is going off on one of his famous rants now anyway. MetsFan76 02:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I already aplogized to the guy on his talk page. It would serve no purpose to remove it. People would just be ignorant about the symbol for another 50 years. They still use in Latvia for decorations.--D-Boy 02:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

D-Boy...I saw the apology and it was very nice of you but wasn't necessary. You meant no harm. He needs to calm down. MetsFan76 02:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Lets not personalize the issue. The strength of the person making an argument is not necessarily reflective of the strength of the argument. If we decide on the change the symbol, it will not be because it is an inappropriate symbol, but because it can be unnecessarily hurtful when presented without context. Does anyone think the Hinduism welcome template will be any less recognizable or welcoming if it used Aum instead of swastika ? Taking the high-road (as D-Boy did by apologizing even though he intended no ill-will) is not a sign of weakness IMO Abecedare 02:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely not a sign of weakness. I thought what D-Boy did was commendable even though IZAK hasn't responded to it yet. MetsFan76 02:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think IZAH's points are more of a reason to keep the swastika rather than to change it. As a matter of fact the symbol is a central one to Hindus, and he and others must appreciate that. The narrow sense of history and culture that westerners have cannot justify the censorship being proposed by him. It is important that this censorship be opposed. Should Hindus here not be upset that a symbol central to their religion is being censored because some idiot in Germany adopted it for his fascist party? Is it not being implied that how the Hindu views that symbol is being dismissed by the western-oriented editors here? Tfoi 02:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I like Abecedare's suggestion above. Personally, the Aum symbol has more meaning for me than the swastika anyway. And for me the Aum symbol is a meaningful symbol. Context is also important, and placing the swastika without explanation in userspace isn't appropriate. When someone comes to a userpage and sees, what is for them, a symbol of oppression and genocide, they are right to be offended. Folks - keep in mind that people are not being offended by Hinduism, so let's not take it personally. ॐ Priyanath talk 03:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, Priyanath. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The welcoming template says "Hinduism" fairly prominently, the swastika is obviously different in style from those used by the Nazis, and nothing in the template has anything to do with Nazism. It seems clear to me that the symbol is not meant to represent the Nazi party. I guess I will make a semiotic argument here - there are three parts to any message: the sender, the message, and the receiver (apologies to semioticians - I know that's a gross over-simplification, and even partly wrong, but I'm at peace with it). Here the sender clearly wants to communicate something unrelated to Nazism and the message does communicate something unrelated to Nazism. So the problem, to me, is that the receiver has decided that anything with this symbol is "offensive," even if it's otherwise clear that the message was not meant to offend - the receiver has added meaning that the sender did not want, that the message does not otherwise contain, and that the receiver probably knows the message is not meant to contain.

So that's what it boils down to for me - do we allow one group to dictate the meaning of a symbol used by another group, even where the group using it does not assign it a similar meaning and opposes the assignment of that meaning? (Or, to put it another way, do we let Jews tell Hindus that they can't use a Hindu symbol because of something a "Christian" did?) I don't think we can - it's unfortunate that some people add meaning to a swastika that it doesn't deserve, and thereby co-opt what should be a religious symbol. But, to me, that's an argument for more use of swastikas of this type. Hindus should be allowed to "reclaim" their symbol - it's theirs, not Hitler's. But they can only do that if they can use it - and use it enough so that it rids itself of that horrid other meaning. (Of course, if this is truly not a symbol representative of Hinduism, as some have argued, then it shouldn't be used - but because it doesn't communicate the core message, not because it's offensive.) --TheOtherBob 03:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Hindus have lots of choices they don't need a swastika as their main "PR-logo" -- are there any swamis in the house? Why doesn't India have a swastika on it's flag?, it's a Hindu nation, they are smart enough not to do dumb things it seems. IZAK 03:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point. To Hindus, the symbol means something different. Who are you to question them? MetsFan76 03:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK:Talk about offensive I find that post offensive and I am not Indian! — Arjun 03:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Also I am pretty sure that the government of India is secular. Read the article. — Arjun 03:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You spoke those words out of my mouth Arjun! Yes, the bond between Hinduism is not the same as Israel and Judaism. And we don't have an Aum on our flag either :) We have a Buddhist chakra. The word Swastika comes from su and asti and literally means well-being. Gizza 03:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• I am not Hindu. I am not Indian. I had family put in Nazi camps during that war. It sickens me too. However, I am stunned that what seems to me to be over-political correctness is taking a symbol that only vaguely resembles the Nazi symbol and trying to ban it! From another culture! As I have said repeatedly on WP, the Indians fielded the largest volunteer military force in WWII to fight the Nazis and end the Holocaust. Of their own free will, even though they were still under the British thumb and not too happy about it. They still volunteered. And died. Lots. In foreign lands to free another people. So it is a bit much to imply somehow that the Indians here (or other cultures that use the swastika as well) are somehow responsible for its misuse for a handful of years, after it has been used around the world for thousands of years. There are even a few Jewish temples/synagogues in buildings built before the war that have the swastika as part of the building design, if I remember correctly from a documentary I saw. And the buildings were not demolished and the symbols removed. The Rabbis etc were glad to keep them there as a sign of defiance, that they were not going to be pushed around by some tyrant and his misuse of this symbol! So...I ask those who are so upset about it here that they are removing it from OTHERS pages that they slow down and think for a moment. Two wrongs dont make a right you know...--Filll 03:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

An encyclopedia shouldn't censor itself to accommodate for the ignorance of mediocre minds that can't be bothered to appreciate history or culture outside of the western hemisphere. I don't mean to be rude, but I find it curious that IZAK refuses to take the time to be sensitive to the Hindu sentiment on the issue (and I would say he demonstrates exceptional insensitivity when he throws pictures of Hitler and holocaust victims around to make his point on this issue), while demanding that Hindus yield and discard the swastika symbol and all it actually means. His argument and its approach is insulting to Hindus and Hinduism, which is strange thing from him considering he thinks he is speaking from the perspective of a people who were persecuted for their religion. It is something to be taken personally. I would think one of the very best things about this online encyclopedia is the depth of knowlege that originates from all parts of the world, rather than the western-only material you could expect from Encarta or other sources. Even if people are offended by this symbol (so far I don't see other Jews throwing a fit over this) they can take the time to familiarize themselves with the positive uses of that symbol in the distant past. The gained knowlege will surely outweigh that initial second or two of surprise, and is better than telling Hindus here that their religious symbol is too controvercial for untrained non-hindu eyes. I also detest self-censorship as much as I detest adminitratively enforced censorship.There is a reason why censorship is looked down upon in civilized societies, which is that it perpetuates misinformation and stereotypes. We must'nt yield to IZAK's demands for such censorship, but rather make him feel obliged to acknowlege the older meaning of that symbol. Hindus aren't Nazis. Tfoi 03:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Hindus volunteered by the millions to fight the Nazis, and died saving Jews.--Filll 03:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Leaving aside the urban elite and Brahmins, the aum is a distant second to the Swastika in importance as the religious symbol of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and other religions, representing almost every third person on earth. This is perhaps the second most revered symbol in the world after the Christian cross. It would be a pity if we have to censor its use on[REDACTED] for whatever reason. deeptrivia (talk) 03:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that's simply untrue. The swastika is absolutely not the second-most-revered religious symbol in the world.

The swastika is NOT a universal, major Hindu symbol - it's a minor one and is secondary to the Aum. Using swastikas so prevalently to represent Hinduism is unencyclopedic. That's why the use of the Aum is recommended in its place - not entirely, but in such a way that it reflects the centrality of the Aum in Hindu culture, a place which the swastika does not occupy. The 'Jewish' issue is a real concern and we have a duty to our readers to provide context, but potential offense of our readers is not the sole, nor even the most encyclopedic, rationale for replacing the symbol. This is not a Hindus-vs-Jews issue! It's about encyclopedic value, not about potential offense or censorship. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to sound lame but that didn't make sense Ryan. I would think it would be unencyclopedic to remove it! We should be teaching the world what the truth is, not to hide it under the blankets just because it was used in a negative fashion. Also I may very well agree with Deeptrivia, the Swastika is used pretty much in all Dharmic Religions. — Arjun 03:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not stating we should remove it - as I've said nearly a dozen times now. The use of a swastika on WP to represent Hinduism should be proportionate to its use within Hinduism. Other faiths are another matter. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

No one wants to offend. But no one should be offended. If I go to a foreign country with different hand gestures that represent something unsavory in my own culture, should I get upset? No of course not. It is part of understanding that all cultures are different, and the symbolism is different. They are using that hand gesture to mean something completely different. I would be crazy to be offended by it.--Filll 03:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Please come to India, especially to the villages where 70% of the Indians live to compare the relative importance of the two symbols. The swastika overwhelmingly outdoes the Aum. Aum is the most important syllable, a sound, but certainly not the most important symbol. Understandably, it cannot be expected that western media would feel free to display it as a part of Asian culture until the taboo and paranoia (or the symbol itself) dies out. deeptrivia (talk) 03:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Not the case. Just a cursory review brings us:

"Aum (also Om or Ohm, ) is the most sacred syllable in Hinduism, symbolizing the infinite Brahman and the entire Universe" - WP.

"The most important symbol in Hinduism, (the Aum) occurs in every prayer and invocation to most deities begins with it." -- .

"The primary symbol of Hinduism is the Aum" --

Come on, folks. Let's be encyclopedic and not object, or support, the swastika out of religious pride nor paranoia. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the question is whether the Aum is more important than the Swastika (a question I doubt we will ever answer), but rather whether the swastika is a symbol that Hindus might reasonably use for their religion, and understand to represent their religion. Given that it is "considered extremely holy and auspicious by all Hindus" (according to our[REDACTED] article), I wouldn't be at all surprised that they would choose to be represented by such a symbol. So the question, then, is whether that choice is so entirely wrong-headed as to be unencyclopedic - whether the claim that "the swastika represents Hinduism" is false because the swastika is only a distant or miniscule part of Hinduism. I don't see any evidence of that - everything I've seen says that it is important, even if other symbols are more important (which, as I said, I doubt we'll ever resolve). --TheOtherBob 03:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well for starters, A LOT of people look down on[REDACTED] for its inaccuracies. Who are you going to trust a couple of english webpages that may not be written by actual practitioners or someone who is hindu and actually lives in the country of origin. There is a HUGE difference between a "symbol" and a "Syllable" - picture vs. sound. (Ghostexorcist 03:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

They do indeed - and this situtation is one reason why they might be justified in doing so. And I think you realize that individual expertise is not the criteria on WP... citations are. Deferring to another editor's expertise due to their ethnicity is not a WP policy, nor even a good idea. I'm familiar with the difference bet. Symbols and Syllables, thanks. That's why I made the citations I did. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If the swastika is so vile and repulsive, why is it being used in a wall hanging in this town in israel in this photo? --Filll 03:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicts) As deep said, the Aum symbol does not hold too much importance. It comes from the Devangari script, which is used to write Sanskrit and Hindi. It was only created in the last 1000 years. Hinduism hsa existed for much longer than 1000 years and before then it was the Swastika that was easily the famous. And please read Swastika. It is not only, Nazi and Hindu. It has been present in so many civilisations around the world. Gizza 03:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"The Aum symbol does not hold too much importance."? That's patently and blatantly false. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That is what I said earlier, the Swastika has been used by many different civilizations. — Arjun 03:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to offend anyone and I admit I haven't read the WHOLE of this discussion, but here are my two cents. I find it extremely narrow minded of the Swastika removing users, as they are not being at all considerate of others religions. Just because Hitler used the Swastika does not mean Hindus are banned from it. Tomorrow some random terrorist may use the Star of David to launch their own genocide against Hindus and I for one will not be removing any religious symbols and I would urge my fellow Hindus to not do so because it is important to respect others religions. You cannot justify removing Swastikas because there are other symbols available, it is important to Hindus, you need to respect our religion, the Hindu swastika does not have any relation to Nazism, end of story, I urge everyone to revert such removals of Swastikas quickly. Nobleeagle 03:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is another photo from a place called synagogue lane, in a town in india called Cochin. The neighborhood where this picture was taken was called "Jew Town" (not sure I am too comfortable with that name myself, but anyway) because so many Jews used to live there. Most have left and it is mainly occuppied by Muslims now. No Jews ever complained apparently. It is not a big issue.--Filll 03:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You know that if Hitler had won, he would not have been particularly gracious towards the Hindus. You think he would have thought they were part of the Master Race? Even though many of them ARE the real Aryans. I don't think that would have made a bit of difference to Hitler. He got rid of everyone he thought was defective. Jews. Slavs. Catholics. Gays. Lesbians. Gypsies. Etc.--Filll 03:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Besides, the swastika is a "must" for any Hindu celebration or ritual, without which no religious activity can be considered auspicious. This is common knowledge, but here's a reference:. deeptrivia (talk) 03:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The very same reference makes clear that "As the cross is to Christians, the Om is to Hindus. It is made up of three Sanskrit letters, aa, au and ma which, when combined, make the sound Aum or Om. The most important symbol in Hinduism, it occurs in every prayer and invocation to most deities begins with it.". Why, then, would you prefer the swastika to the Aum in terms of encyclopedic value?

Regardless of the circular discussion and in any case, I've made my points and I don't wish to repeat myself. If the community cannot divorce the issue of encyclopedic value from fervor, it can't address this issue properly. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I read somewhere that Hitler thought Hindus were impure because of their contact with Dravidians, meaning they lost their Aryanness and may have been attacked in time (as they were controlled by the British back then). Nobleeagle 03:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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