| Revision as of 00:49, 25 March 2021 view sourceNewimpartial (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users24,911 edits →Birth name: reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 20:36, 26 November 2024 view source Isabelle Belato (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators50,983 edits Adding {{pp-blp}}Tag: Twinkle |
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== DOB source == |
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== Criticism == |
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She is constantly being criticized. Someone should add a criticism section in this article. ] (]) 08:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Coemgenus}} What's the source for adding October 28 to her DoB? The inline source only says 1957. ] <small>]</small> 20:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:All content, regardless of whether it is positive or negative, must be supported by ]. If there is enough content to merit a full section, then a full section can be included. Otherwise, it will likely just be added in as a single sentence (or two). ] (]) 09:39, 18 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:I have a source on Ancestry.com, but I was reluctant to list it because it uses her former name, which I've seen people get pushback for on here before. It's . --] (]) 22:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::] could you please explain further why you removed the information about Rachel Levine's reported attempts to remove the age limits for trans surgery? One of your objections is that "''this seems like a non-story".'' I am confused. It was a story that was reported first in The New York Times, which is considered to be a generally reliable source per <nowiki>]</nowiki>. It is also mentioned in The Economist, which is also listed at <nowiki>]</nowiki> as generally reliable. Quote from The Economist: ''"Another document recently unsealed shows that Rachel Levine, a trans woman who is assistant secretary for health, succeeded in pressing WPATH to remove minimum ages for the treatment of children from its 2022 standards of care. Dr Levine’s office has not commented''." I believe that this information needs to be reflected in the article, as it received coverage in the sources that are known for fact checking and accuracy. I am also confused by your characterization as "speculation." The original edit (recapped below) captured a response to an allegation (vs. allegation alone), in an attempt to be thoughtfully balanced. Levine's office is not even saying it's speculation, instead they are providing a response explaining Rachel Levine's position to the New York Times. |
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::{{re|Coemgenus}} Without a reliable, non-primary source, we shouldn't use Ancestry.com as a source per ]. See ]. ] <small>]</small> 22:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::Original edit: "With respect to allegations in 2024 that Rachel Levine pushed to remove age limits for trans surgery from World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Standards of Care 8 (SOC8), an H.H.S. spokesman said “Adm. Levine shared her view with her staff that publishing the proposed lower ages for gender transition surgeries was not supported by science or research, and could lead to an onslaught of attacks on the transgender community,”" ] (]) 04:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::OK, if you want to revert me, it's fine with me. I won't add it again. --] (]) 22:30, 19 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::An allegation was made, the allegation was clarified, end of story. That story is not particularly interesting nor did it have great impact on her career, and from what I read it sounds like the NYT heard of an issue and then got a clarification on that issue, which is exactly how journalism should work; it does not however mean we ''must'' include it, because we do not need to include every small detail of a person's life or career, regardless of whether that detail is positive or negative. ] (]) 12:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{reply to|GorillaWarfare}} Just checking, would be an appropriate source for her date of birth? It's from ]. ] (]) 23:43, 21 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::::You bring up a good point that responding to allegations may not be significant enough to include. It made me reread her article to get a better sense of what topics are included. I see that the article covers Levine’s concern that gender affirming care is politicized. Since the[REDACTED] article is including the topic of the politicization of GAC, it should do it in a balanced way and also include information from reliable sources on Rachel Levine participating in the politicization of GAC. Accordingly I’m making a revised edit with that rationale. I have not included the quote below from Rachel Levine’s chief of staff in the edit, but I am including it here on the talk page as support that political concerns were a factor in the requested change to a GAC health guideline. |
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::I was briefly concerned when I saw the section of the Q-Notes article titled "Developments, controversies and notoriety", but from what I can tell that rather alarming section title is based only on the fact that "Chris Crain, former editor of The Washington Blade criticized Q-Notes coverage as it did not include information that the interviews had been conducted via email." How bizarre... Anyway, yeah, that seems reasonably reliable to me and isn't a primary source like Ancestry.com. ] <small>]</small> 00:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::::“She is confident, based on the rhetoric she is hearing in D.C., and from what we have already seen, that these specific listings of ages, under 18, will result in devastating legislation for trans care. She wonders if the specific ages can be taken out.” (NYT) ] (]) 04:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Incorrect words == |
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== Marriage == |
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This sentence is ambiguous: "Levine married Martha Peaslee Levine in 1988 during Levine's last year of medical school." Which Levine's last year of medical school, Rachel or Martha's? |
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In the personal history, Dr. Levine had a Bas Mitzvah, not a Bar Mitzvah. Bar Mitzvah is for boys. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:26, 20 January 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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I believe it was Martha's last year of school, so it would be better to say "Levine married Martha Peaslee Levine in 1988 during Martha Levine's last year of medical school." ] (]) 20:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:I think you'll find that they had a Bar Mitzvah. ] (]) 01:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::Levine didn't ] until 2011, so it would have been a bar mitzvah. Ideally there would be a gender neutral form of the word we could use (per the guidance at ]), but I'm not sure there is—I've seen "b'nai mitzvah" but I'm not sure that is widely used in the singular. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Judaism could weigh in on the term. ] <small>]</small> 01:45, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::I think ]'s solution to remove it entirely actually makes a lot of sense, per their in the edit summary. ] <small>]</small> 02:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::::{{ping|Zacwill}} Can you please join the discussion rather than warring over its inclusion? ] <small>]</small> 02:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Comments from my edit summaries: "The sentence itself isn't sourced and tbqh, it doesn't add anything to include it either way. She went to Hebrew school and is Jewish is more than enough without having to wade into this bar/bat mitzvah debate. It goes without saying a Hebrew school kid was mitvahed. What are we gaining as a reader by making a thorny decision like this based on a source that has no authority on queer issues when we could just not include it? It is not core to the article and we gain everything we need by saying she's Jewish. This is fighting for fighting sake to include a gendered term. If she was a rabbi, we'd likely need a decision. She's not, we don't." ] (]) 02:27, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::This is a completely manufactured issue, and to delete content from the article because of it is pathetic. Levine happily admits to having been "bar mitzvah-ed" in an (at p. 558), so it really can't be all that "thorny". Removing the passage from the article is preferable to rewriting it to falsely imply that Levine had a bat mitzvah, but both courses are deeply silly and deleterious (we don't "gain everything we need by saying she's Jewish", since it isn't a given that Jews have mitzvah ceremonies—many secular ones don't). ] (]) 02:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::It is not completely manufactured; avoiding confusing constructions about a woman having a bar mitzvah is in keeping with the advice at ]. ] <small>]</small> 02:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::Is it fundamental to Rachel Levine how she was mitzvahed? The answer is no. It's really not worth any of this. Also reading that portion of the interview as her speaking "happily" seems... suspect. ] (]) 03:11, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Early Life and Education. == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2021 == |
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Why isn't birth name mentioned? It should be the first thing under Early Life and Education. "Born {{redacted}} in..." . This is a fact of her life. Even Google returns that information. ] (]) 14:31, 20 October 2024 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|Rachel Levine|answered=yes}} |
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:There is a FAQ at the top of the page, and a dozen talk page discussions in the archives about the matter. ] (]) 14:52, 20 October 2024 (UTC) |
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Levine is originally from Wakefield, Massachusetts. She is Jewish, grew up attending Hebrew school, and had a bar mitzvah. She has recalled that while she was growing up, her rabbi did not talk about LGBTQ issues. She earned her high school diploma from Belmont Hill School in Belmont, Massachusetts. |
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== Edit request on transition year == |
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link - https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/jewish-woman-welcomed-as-transgender-states-new-physician-general/ |
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The article doesn't mention when Levine transitioned, although talk page archives suggest it formerly did. This should probably be readded, especially considering it mentions her same-sex marriage in 1988 without specifying that she transitioned afterwards. ] (]) 22:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC) |
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from article - "As a Jewish youth growing up in a Jewish household in Wakefield, Mass., having a bar mitzvah, attending Hebrew school and attending a conservative shul, Levine said the rabbi did not talk about LGBTQ issues. It was the late 1960s, early 1970s, she said, and things are only now getting better." |
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:Did we have a valid RS source for it? If so, I think it might be OK to add the date if it was done in a pretty minimal way. It should be no more than one short sentence and should not imply any narrative or connections other than to establish the chronology. --] (]) 18:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::https://www.womenshistory.org/education-resources/biographies/rachel-levine mentions that she completed her transition in 2011, and is already being used as a source in this article. I think something like "Levine fully transitioned in 2011." would be more than enough. ] (]) 22:25, 15 November 2024 (UTC) |
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my explanation - I believe that the correct term for Rachel Levine's coming of age ceremony is Bar Mitzva, despite the fact that she now identifies and lives as a woman. It looks like the provided link leads to the[REDACTED] bar mitzvah entry. Perhaps I'm wrong. This is a question that Rachel Levine should answer. ] (]) 02:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:If she wasn't notable by her prior name, then the date of her transition is similarly un-notable and should generally be omitted as it serves no encyclopedic value. ] (]) 00:37, 16 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Please do not use "lives as a woman" it's transphobic. She is a woman. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:] '''Done'''<!-- Template:EP --> Levine had a bar and not a bat mitzvah, as indicated by the source for this section of the article. ] (]) 02:18, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::See the section above this one as well. ] <small>]</small> 02:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2021 (2) == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Rachel Levine|answered=yes}} |
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ADDITIONS |
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:] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{tlx|edit extended-protected}} template.<!-- Template:EEp --> The proposed edits are bullet points instead of prose, and if they are all added to the article, they may be giving undue weight to her personal experience with being transgender, rather than her notable accomplishments. Please discuss. – ] (]) 05:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::Dr. Levine’s recent appointment is historic not due to her notable accomplishments but due to her being transgender. The public viewing this article will be intrigued by both information on her accomplishments and personal experiences. While all should be encouraged to source information on her career as soon as possible, it would do a disservice to readers to exclude information that adds color to what supporters feel is a very exciting moment. (If it’s permitted - I would encourage editors to consider young queer/questioning folks and how they might benefit from knowing as much as possible about Dr. Levine overcoming adversity.) Thank you. - ] (]) 09:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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===Additions to: Early Life and Education=== |
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She said she lived with a "secret" from an early age and spent much of her life trying to fit in.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2015/03/transgender_conference_rachel.html|title=Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth|date=Mar 20, 2015|website=pennlive.com}}</ref> |
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She said, "All I knew is I wanted to be a girl, or I was a girl, or female." <ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2015/03/transgender_conference_rachel.html|title=Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth|date=Mar 20, 2015|website=pennlive.com}}</ref> |
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===Additions to: Personal Life=== |
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Describing a point she reached in her 40s, she said, "Boy, did I have a midlife crisis." She began seeing a therapist and attending meetings of TransCentralPA<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2015/03/transgender_conference_rachel.html|title=Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth|date=Mar 20, 2015|website=pennlive.com}}</ref> |
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She said she threw herself into school work, then her career, in order to "compartmentalize" troubling feelings about her gender.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2015/03/transgender_conference_rachel.html|title=Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth|date=Mar 20, 2015|website=pennlive.com}}</ref> |
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"What is comes down to is I decided to live my life with no secrets ... with no fear," she said.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2015/03/transgender_conference_rachel.html|title=Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth|date=Mar 20, 2015|website=pennlive.com}}</ref> |
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Leaders at Penn State Hershey (Medical Center) and her patients were supportive after she transitioned to living as a female.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2015/03/transgender_conference_rachel.html|title=Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth|date=Mar 20, 2015|website=pennlive.com}}</ref> |
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The reaction of her mother, a lawyer who was in her mid-80s: "I'm not sure I understand, but I love you unconditionally."<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2015/03/transgender_conference_rachel.html|title=Transgender physician general Dr. Rachel Levine addresses conference, reaches out to transgender youth|date=Mar 20, 2015|website=pennlive.com}}</ref> ] (]) 03:13, 20 January 2021 (UTC) |
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{{reftalk}} |
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* I'd support adding a cite to the Pennlive interview, mentioning that she discussed her transition process in it. ] (]) 22:08, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Openly transgender == |
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Is that a thing? Or rather, is the opposite a thing--is there a recognized phenomenon of closeted transgender people like there are closeted gay people? If "openly transgender" isn't a generally recognized concept, it's probably best to drop the word "openly" from the article. Thanks. ] (]) 06:18, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:My understanding is that, yes, there is an exactly analogous situation where some trans people are closeted by living publicly as the gender they were assigned at birth and also a second situation where some trans people live as their actual gender without it being publicly known that this differs from the gender they were assigned at birth (i.e. "being stealth"). |
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:But... This does not mean that you are wrong to question the use of "openly". I don't like it and I similarly dislike "openly gay". I feel this can be appropriate in historical contexts where openness would be a rare exception but is best not used for contemporary people. --] (]) 12:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:: My sense is that the context of use is important here. Since it is likely that some federal official, sometime has come out after ceasing to be a federal official, or has been ''de facto'' transgender without coming out before death (ahem), it would be inappropriately BOLD to state that Levine is the first senior federal official, ever, to be transgender. I'm not sure "openly" is the right word, but some such delimiter is necessary IMO. ] (]) 14:43, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::: I agree that we need to be clear that she's the first transgender person who is out at the time of her nomination. Reliable sources have sometimes said "first transgender" in headlines, but within every article they caveat "first openly transgender" (, , , ). Would it help if we linked "openly" to ] or ]? ] <sup>]</sup> 16:21, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::::I do think we should include some term so as to avoid suggesting closeted transgender people are not actually transgender. "Openly" or "out" would seem to do it; "out" might be a bit better. ] <small>]</small> 16:30, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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Thanks everyone. Yes if the press is saying "openly" then I guess we should do the same, and linking the word to one of those "coming out" sections (I guess I better read them) sounds good. It hadn't occurred to me to think that a closeted transgender person isn't really transgender. I was thinking more of the mental revision required to take in the concept of closeted gender status existing at all. I'm introverted enough to not be bothered by this, but I can imagine a bunch of cable news heads exploding if someone comes out while or after holding a high enough office. ] (]) 17:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC) Politanvm: I cleaned up a bunch of tracking parameters from your BBC link, hope that's ok. The linked page no longer mentions Levine either with or without the parameters, but I'll take your word for what it said before. ] (]) 18:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{done}} by ] . ] <small>]</small> 18:16, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::To expand, I've linked the first "openly" to ], since it's slightly more built out, and the next word already links to ]. {{u|GorillaWarfare}}, I'm open to your suggestion of "out" instead of "openly," but I'm hesitant because there seems to be a clear consensus in sources for "openly transgender" and I don't want to dive too for into original research/synthesis and NPOV issues. I'm also not sure if "out" will be any clearer than "openly" for readers who are otherwise unfamiliar with LGBT topics. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:23, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::I think the wikilink is fine, and "openly" appears to be the common wording in the sourcing. ] <small>]</small> 18:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Birth name == |
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Even if her birth name is not necessarily relevant to her notability, it still should be included. It should at least be under early life and the infobox birth name. I also think we should put it in the lead in the same was as ].] (]) 01:07, 26 January 2021 (UTC) |
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: However, ] says that we should not do that. ] (]) 01:27, 26 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{re|Iamreallygoodatcheckers}} Caitlyn Jenner was extremely notable before she came out as transgender. Levine has primarily been notable since becoming Pennsylvania's Physician General, which postdates her coming out. ] is quite clear that {{tq|In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, the birth name should be included in the lead sentence only if the person was notable under that name... If such a subject was not notable under their former name, it usually should not be included in that or any other article, even if some reliable sourcing exists for it.}} ] <small>]</small> 15:34, 26 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:I guess you all are right. Kind of an odd policy in my opinion, I feel it should at least be under birth name in the infobox, but I suppose not. ] (]) 04:18, 28 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Iamreallygoodatcheckers}}, the proper venue to discuss the policy is ], not here. ― ] <sup>]</sup> 04:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Yes I understand that. ] (]) 04:24, 28 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::::FYI, people use intentional ] to harass trans people. For this reason, most trans people don't want their deadnames to be well-known and, beyond that, it just makes sense to err on the side of ] for marginalized minorities. Additionally, MOS:DEADNAME logically follows from the two rules at the top of ]. --] (]) 15:46, 28 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::it is literally a dead name. It no longer exists. She did not choose to be born as a boy. --] (]) 18:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::: It is not a dead name. Rachel Levine would have performed recorded work under the name (REDACTED) Levine as a medical professional. In order to keep that link to previous work, her birth name should be given. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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::::::: You misunderstand what a deadname is. The ] article may help clarify what the term means, and the Manual of Style at ] clarified that we do not use deadnames unless the subject was already notable under that name. Levine was not, so we do not include her former name. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:29, 5 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::: The point is, Rachel Levine performed medical work as (REDACTED) Levine. These are medical records that cant be destroyed. This article should still link Rachel Levine with work performed by (REDACTED) Levine. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:35, 5 February 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:::::::::] is quite clear that we should not. If you disagree, feel free to take it up at ], but until such point as it is changed, we will leave the name out. ] <small>]</small> 21:45, 5 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I would also add that, now that this has been clearly explained, continuing to throw the deadname around on this talk page could be considered disruptive behaviour. I have redacted the deadname from the comments above as it is not necessary for anybody to mention what the deadname actually is, even when discussing whether it should be included. If the subject comes up again, and there is no reason why it should, please just say "her deadname" or "her birth name" and it will be perfectly clear what you are talking about. --] (]) 22:16, 5 February 2021 (UTC) |
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Bill Clinton was not born as a Clinton. He had a different last name. His last name was changed while a teenager, way before he did professional work as a lawyer. Why do we know his birth last name Blythe? (Feel free to redact it.) It is a deadname. Scrub it from wikipedia! Another example is 38th President Gerald Ford. (Feel free to redact that too.) That was not all his birth name. Why is "Leslie Lynch King Jr." on his[REDACTED] page? Another one to scrub from wikipedia! <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:35, 27 February 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Sarcasm like this is unhelpful. Feel free to read the MOS page linked above, which is specific to transgender subjects, which Clinton and Ford are not. ] <small>]</small> 23:39, 27 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::Thinly veiled politicization of an encyclopedia is even more unhelpful. ] (]) 15:24, 1 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::If you would like to suggest the guidelines on how we write about trans subjects be changed, ] is thataway. But we are not going to contradict established consensus on a single article just because you think it is "politicization" to follow our own guidelines, which are by the way in line with how most reputable publications write about trans subjects. ] <small>]</small> 18:25, 1 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::First of all, there is no such thing as being apolitical. Ever. To assume otherwise is to assume that the status quo is unbiased and objective, which is not only false but is itself a deeply political assumption. Additionally, as User:GorillaWarfare noted above me, the WP guidlines and MOS is entirely congruent with the MOS of basically all reputable sources. And I encourage you to read all the above-linked sources. Especially ] and ]. --] (]) 15:36, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
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I'm absolutely baffled why her birth name wouldn't be included. It's editorializing and *assuming* she is at least ashamed of her transition. This is an encyclopedia, where facts matter more than editors' presumptions/feelings. She's the United States Assistant Secretary for Health. The 'deadnaming' excuse assumes she is ashamed or that she seeks protection (which is inherently offensive). Editorializing, selecting which *facts* are appropriate, has no place on an encyclopedia. Not that it needs to be said, but she is *openly transgender*. Not including her birth name is the opposite the normalization of LGBTQ+ and at odds with the mission of an encyclopedia. Furthermore, policies that are at odds with the ] are inherently counterproductive. I can't think of worse policy for an encyclopedia than to have folks who think they know best censoring facts.<br>] (]) 00:05, 25 March 2021 (UTC) |
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: You may be baffled, but ] has been the subject of repeated, widely participated RfCs on ] (and widely announced elsewhere). You might want to read up on our policies and site-wide consensus before you opine. To cut to the chase, none of the gratuitous assumptions of the post you just made are relevant to the policy (e.g., "being ashamed", "facts versus feelings" or "seeking protection"). ] (]) 23:53, 24 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:Opertinicy, I've mentioned this on my user talk page replies to you, but no amount of griping about how you feel about Misplaced Pages's guidelines on the former names of trans subjects will actually change anything unless you begin a formal discussion at ]. If you truly believe that a discussion to try to change the guideline would be fruitful, feel free to do so, though I would echo Newimpartial's points that the previous discussions received wide participation and so seem unlikely to change as dramatically as you're hoping.{{pb}}As for your guesses about how Levine feels about having her former name included, we could spend all day speculating, but in the end we don't know her preference on the inclusion of her name in this article, and so we go with the guideline. However your comment that the omission of birth names is "the opposite the normalization of LGBTQ+" is frankly not the general consensus of trans rights organizations; it might be your own opinion, but it is not a widespread one. ] <small>]</small> 00:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::It's bad policy and at odds with the mission statement of Misplaced Pages. What would satisfy you for her birthname to be included? A signed letter from her? What standard is being set here? She's a transgender champion whom I've met, and I think she would be annoyed that this is even a controversy. ] (]) 00:15, 25 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::If she would like to specifically request her birth name be included, sure, I imagine we'd respect that wish. Otherwise, you can begin a discussion to change the guideline, as I've already stated. ] <small>]</small> 00:21, 25 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::: The requirement would be for her to time travel back before her transition and make sure she meets Misplaced Pages Notability standards through her actions before announcing her gender and changing her name. That, or she could announce now that she prefers to use her pre-transition name when discussing events from before her transition, but almost nobody does that. And the cost of time travel is prohibitive, as I assume you know. ] (]) 00:21, 25 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::::{{small|Silly me, forgetting to mention the obvious third option... ] <small>]</small> 00:25, 25 March 2021 (UTC)}} |
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::::: Redirects are cheap but time travel ... isn't. ] (]) 00:49, 25 March 2021 (UTC) |
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== Early life and education == |
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I don't think adding "her rabbi didn't talk about LGBTQ issues" is relevant at all. It's random and doesn't fit in. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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*I second this statement. ] (]) 15:06, 29 January 2021 (UTC) |
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{{done}} I agree that it's a bizarre thing to include. ] <small>]</small> 16:08, 29 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 February 2021 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Rachel Levine|answered=yes}} |
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In early life, their should be reference to Dr. Levine's given birth name for record traceability. ] (]) 18:47, 1 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> Not happening. That's why this page is protected. ― ] <sup>]</sup> 18:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:Misplaced Pages policy is quite clear we should not do that: |
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:{{tq|In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, the birth name should be included in the lead sentence only if the person was notable under that name... If such a subject was not notable under their former name, it usually should not be included in that or any other article, even if some reliable sourcing exists for it.}} (]) |
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:{{tq|Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise.}} (]) |
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:] <small>]</small> 18:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 February 2021 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Rachel Levine|answered=yes}} |
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In an effort to fully educate, fully inform and to be completely honest, the individual's name, birth, etc. should be available to the public. ] (]) 15:51, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> – ] (]) 15:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> Please see the section directly above this one for an explanation of why we will not be including Levine's birth name in the article. ] <small>]</small> 18:15, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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==Full protection request== |
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Suggest full protection pending the added attention of her confirmation hearing. ] (]) 23:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{re|Therequiembellishere}} unless there's significant non-constructive editing, I don't see why that's necessary. ] (] | ]) 23:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:I've already ] (after my same request was declined yesterday). I don't think a case can be made for full protection through her confirmation, but I do think ECP will help. ] <small>]</small> 00:01, 26 February 2021 (UTC) |
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== Add info from confirmation hearing? == |
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During Levine's confirmation hearing with the ], ] compared transgender medicine to "genital mutilation" and accused her of supporting “surgical destruction of a minor’s genitalia." Paul was rebuked by committee chairman ], as well as multiple House and Senate Democrats, who were to vote on the ] that same day.<ref>https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/ralph-norman-rush-limbaugh-b1807699.html</ref><ref>https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/25/rachel-levine-assistant-health-secretary-senate-confirmation-hearing-historic</ref><ref>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9300987/Rand-Paul-likens-gender-surgery-genital-mutilation-exchange-trans-nominee-HHS-deputy.html</ref><ref>https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/us/rachel-levine.html</ref><ref>https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/25/politics/rachel-levine-vivek-murthy-senate-hearing/index.html</ref> Should this piece of information from her hearing be included? Seems notable given the significance of the occasion but I'd rather talk it out in case of ]. ] (]) 05:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Phillip Samuel}}, very short comment before I go to work (a) I've removed the Daily Mail as a deprecated source (see ]) (b) is there some way we could rephrase to avoid repeating Paul's comments? ] (]) 07:15, 26 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::] (a) thanks for removing the deprecated source (b) Multiple congressional Democrats and outside public figures condemned his line of questioning, which gave it some notability. I want to convey that info, but I also see your POV, Paul's comments are maybe too strongly worded to quote on the WP article. Multiple news sources made a point of quoting him. Do you think putting the quotes on the page violates ] or another wp rule? ] (]) 07:23, 26 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::{{u|Phillip Samuel}}, I understand your line of reasoning. My concern is that the cycle of "person says outrageous thing in public venue" -> "media report on outrageous thing" -> "Misplaced Pages includes outrageous thing in article" -> "Outrageous thing is immortalized in Misplaced Pages article long after media circus has moved on" is suboptimal, particularly on a BLP and in a context like this. I suppose the closest PAG to my objection is ] – Levine's confirmation hearing will be of sufficient lasting importance to her history to be mentioned in the article, but Paul's remarks will likely be forgotten amongst all the other similarly outrageous things he's said. ] (]) 19:06, 26 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Alright, so do you think it should be rephrased to something similar to "Rand Paul's line of questioning on transgender medicine was rebuked by committee chairman Paul Murray"? ] (]) 19:46, 26 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Just noting I wholeheartedly agree with ] here. Personally I think the info probably ought to be removed entirely, since it is not relevant to Levine's biography. Perhaps it is relevant to Paul's. ] <small>]</small> 20:19, 26 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Upon further reflection, I agree. Best, ] (]) 03:01, 27 February 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::Agree also. Perhaps this is relevant to Paul's biography. Don't see it relevant to Levine's. ] (]) 17:46, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::Transfered the info to Rand Paul's section per consensus. ] (]) 19:17, 28 February 2021 (UTC) |
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{{reflist}} |
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==Indefinite EC protection over vandalism/edit conflict over gender/birthname?== |
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This page has already been under AC or EC protection since multiple users seem intent on IP jumping or ignoring Misplaced Pages rules and talk consensus to vandalize the page on gender/birth name issues. There has already been the excuse "It's not being abusive to state a fact" w/o regard to talk consensus or WP policies. This page has already been under 2 periods of EC protection, and every time when the page loses AC or EC protection, confirmed and unconfirmed users immediately vandalize and edit war on this issue. When EC protection on this page expires a month from now, there is no doubt confirmed users are going to edit war again. |
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I feel as if as long as she is a prominent member of the Biden administration, this page will keep having to deal with this issue. Simply put, does this page need to have indefinite EC protection? ] (]) 19:27, 27 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:I would certainly support it, as I agree the pattern is clear. ] <small>]</small> 19:46, 27 February 2021 (UTC) |
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:: '''strong support''' absolutely. ] (]) 01:19, 1 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:I would also support indefinite AC or EC (though not "full") protection; in my experience, this kind of vandalism doesn't go away. (I could give examples demonstrating this, if requested, but otherwise I'll avoid it so as not to send ] attention to those other pages!) ] (]) 02:55, 1 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:Based on the article history and Levine's increased political prominence I agree that indefinite ECP is warranted. ] (]) 08:42, 1 March 2021 (UTC) |
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: Very strong support as well. How do we go about getting indefinite protection in place? I'm not familiar with that process. --] (]) 16:44, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::{{re|WhyBeNormal}} ]. ] <small>]</small> 16:48, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Oh, simply add this page to that page to make a request? Ok, done. --] (]) 17:27, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::::I rather support it to make fully protected. It is rather obvious due to fact edit warring between any users. I don't believe indefinite EC protection would be issue for this but temporary full protection would be necessary. ] (]) 20:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::We avoid fully protecting pages indefinitely, or even longterm (see ]). If extended confirmed editors continue to edit war over this, it would be better dealt with by user-level sanctions rather than page protection IMO. ] <small>]</small> 20:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 March 2021 == |
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{{edit extended-protected|Rachel Levine|answered=yes}} |
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Request add "Dr. Levine instituted Department of Health policies which halted routine inspections and issued guidance for senior nursing facilities to admit and readmit patients who tested positive for COVID-19 as she removed her own mother from a nursing facility. This controversial and criticized policy has been blamed for a disproportionate majority of Covid-19 deaths throughout the early portion of the pandemic in Pennsylviania." to the "COVID-19 pandemic" section. PennLive was used as a reliable source in this section already, but all information is slanted toward showing only a positive light vs an accurate reflection of the reality of Dr. Levine's Pennsylvania state Covid-19 policy. |
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<ref>https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/05/another-pa-lawmaker-calls-for-resignation-of-health-secretary-dr-rachel-levine.html</ref> ] (]) 18:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' The article is primarily about Russ Diamond's criticism of Levine, and this proposed addition is a summary of criticism and direct quotes from Diamond. We shouldn't write an individual's claims, opinions, and criticisms in ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:23, 4 March 2021 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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This sentence is ambiguous: "Levine married Martha Peaslee Levine in 1988 during Levine's last year of medical school." Which Levine's last year of medical school, Rachel or Martha's?
I believe it was Martha's last year of school, so it would be better to say "Levine married Martha Peaslee Levine in 1988 during Martha Levine's last year of medical school." 24.16.15.161 (talk) 20:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Why isn't birth name mentioned? It should be the first thing under Early Life and Education. "Born (Redacted) in..." . This is a fact of her life. Even Google returns that information. Ecgberht1 (talk) 14:31, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
The article doesn't mention when Levine transitioned, although talk page archives suggest it formerly did. This should probably be readded, especially considering it mentions her same-sex marriage in 1988 without specifying that she transitioned afterwards. Jone425 (talk) 22:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
faq page Frequently asked questions
Please read the following FAQs before posting.
Q:Why doesn’t this article include her former name?
A:Per WP:DEADNAME: "If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest."
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