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== Argh? Yes argh :-) ==
==British military rifles==
Welcome to Misplaced Pages! You are making excellent additions to this article. But it would be nicer if you made more edits with each contribution, rather than dozens of tiny little edits each day. Look at the history of your contributions, and you will see that it is hard to follow the overall changes due to the number of tiny, albeit necessary, edits. Thanks! ] 12:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
==Image tagging for Image:Monitor example.jpg==
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I was already talking with you on the talk page, and using a post-]-ian revert to actually invite Minderbender into the conversation. That didn't quite work then. Oh well back to the drawing board. Anyway, discuss on talk?
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Note that How to create policy does not in fact have consensus, and admits as much implicitly in the body text.
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It might be marked guideline, but it seems to me that this is simply a mislabeling.
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--] 00:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
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: Ah you just replied there! Hmm, future note, talk first, then revert, else you end up starting two channels! :-) --] 00:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
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==Something's CREEPing==
This is an automated notice by ]. For assistance on the image use policy, see ]. 02:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Please cast your ] detector toward a guideline (under construction) called ]. Regards. ] 23:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
== Songs - response ==
==]==
Hello, and ]! We appreciate your contributions to the ] article, but we cannot accept ] text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material. Perhaps you would like to rewrite the article in your own words. For more information, take a look at ]. Happy editing!<!-- Template:Nothanks --> --] | ] 02:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Definitely agree that having the songs guideline incorporated in ] is the far, far preferable solution. Thanks for driving that. ] 14:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
== ] ==
== Mumble ==
It looks like a good start, I don't see much POV. Im going to tag with {{tl|Wikify}} & {{tl|cleanup}} if you dont mind. ] <sup>(] • ] • ])</sup> 15:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Rather than talking about "processes to demote policy" which we don't actually ''have'' on Misplaced Pages, it would help if you made an argument about the content of that page on its talk page. Analysis shows that (1) nearly ''no'' policy on Misplaced Pages was ever written using the methods described here, and (2) nearly ''all'' proposals made using the methods described here fail. ] 15:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
== ] ==
*It's always about the reasoning, never about the headcount. ] 15:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
**You say it ''"has been instrumental in curbing Creep"'' - got any evidence of that? It would seem that instead, it has been instrumental in ''creating'' creep. ] 15:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
***Well, I'd be happy to remove all the parts that are bad advice, misrepresent actuality, or simply don't work, but if I do that there won't be much left of the page. ] 15:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Heh, Radiant is wikipedia's one-man anti-creep brigade. We've always needed to watch him to make sure he didn't occasionally kill a process or policy that was actually (still/already) in mainstream use.;-) --] 00:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your many contributions to ] and noting my interest in ] in general. I've been doing research into boats for my own reasons and noticed the wide disparity of articles about boat manafacturers. As an example, I started the article for ] to[REDACTED] (which is what startled me that Island Packet had no entries). I might take a look around and see if there is some wider "sailing" projects with which we (and anyone else here) might be able to collaborate. ] 23:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
There is not currently consensus to determine that the proposal is unlikely to achieve consensus. There should be some warning before placing a "rejected" template on a page to see what arguments are advanced for or against the template. You gave no warning before doing it. You cannot singlehandedly make that determination, not called for by anybody else, and then revert to your version over the objections of another editor. Currently, there is one editor in favour of the template and one against. Inactivity is not in itself a reason to say that consensus is unlikely to form. I am going to remove the template, and you can propose on the talk page that a "rejected" template be placed on the page. People will of course express their views on the possibility or impossibility of eventual consensus, rather than on the proposal itself. ] 10:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
== Good idea ==
As I continue delving deeper into the sailing articles, I realized that there are several that have very little information at all; the term ] for example is barely defined at all. I'm thinking, then, that the best use of our time is less of a classic collaboration and more of a division of labor so we wouldn't spend time on the same articles but rather divide and conquer. Personally, I feel that my strengths lie toward structuring new articles and encyclopedically correct writing; I'm less confident of my abilities with getting into articles that already have a healthy debate and a lot of already-designed content.
. ] 12:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm down in L.A. by the way. My wife and I are taking a sailing course but I wouldn't call us anything other than casual sailors! ] 17:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
==Emptycontentarticles==
== And ==
Could I suggest you not create articles with very little content, they are all getting tagged for deletion. I tagged several, then realized they were all being created by you. At least one other person is also taging your article. I assume you will be expanding them, but as they stand they do not look good. That means you need to put a '''hangon''' tag onm each one. --] 05:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's not about the number of users. It's about the content of the page. ] 12:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
== Moving of: Sailboat Design & Manufacturing ==
*Actually, it strikes me that if the HCP page was a proposal, then based on the systematic dissent on the talk page, you would reject the page as part of your cleanup of ]. It would seem that this page does not meet your standards of being a "guideline". ] 12:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:* A fine bit of logic, but flawed in that this page was already an accepted guideline, not a floundering proposal. This is one reason why I'm admonishing people to be careful about acknowledging proposals as guidelines since there is no clear-cut process for deprecating them. Clearly the precedents are that removing a guideline is more difficult than removing a proposal (i.e., protecting the status quo). --] 12:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:**And why do you think it is an accepted guideline? Do you base this only on the presence of the tag or do you have some other benchmark? ] 12:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
== ] ==
Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under ] that was in your userspace. The image (]) was found at the following location: ]. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our ]. The image or media was replaced with ] , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. ]] 20:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
== Regarding rejection of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Pokémon/Layout ==
It seems that you might have discussed this move with the people who are working on this before unilateraly making such a major change.
It's not that there's no consensus behind ]; general support of the project can be found on ]'s archives. Thing is, there's just little effort put into it at the moment, which is largely attributed to the WPP members enjoying the recent release of ]. In general, the only arguments from the opposition are ] and ], so the movement actually is in regards to Misplaced Pages standards. What's going on is really only a "It's a good idea, but it's a chore" sort of situation. ] 22:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Please return this article to where it was and let's discuss the alterantives for change.
== ] ==
I don't completeley disagree with the new title, but it may not fit where the article is evolving.
Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under ] that was in your userspace. The image (]) was found at the following location: ]. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our ]. The image or media was replaced with ] , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. ]] 00:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
==]==
Thanks
Since I accidentally hit enter before I was done: a) Your determination that there will never be consensus regarding this issue is premature, especially since there are only three users objecting, refusing to compromise, and who are not related to highways; and b) Since you are opposing the policy, it is a conflict of interest for you to tag this as {{tl|rejected}}. Get an uninvolved party to do this rather than doing it yourself. --''']''' (] - ]) 02:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
:Since you do not express interest in highways, and that you oppose it, you are no longer neutral. Because of this, you are welcome to discuss it, but '''not''' change it back to rejected. ''']''' <sup>] · ]</sup> 03:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
This talk page is becoming ''very long''. Please consider ]. --''']''' (] - ]) 03:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
] 18:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
:Moving a page is not a major change, especially at such an early stage in a page's life. It only involves hitting the "move" tab at the top of the screen - hardly major. You might want to take a quick read through ]. I am not moving it back to the old name since it violated more than one guideline at ]. If you don't like the current name, feel free to start discussion at the current talk page - or ] and try a different name that ''does'' satisfy ]. —] (]) 19:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
== ] ==
== Deletion of Santa Cruz Yachts ==
Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under ] that was in your userspace. The image (]) was found at the following location: ]. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our ]. The image or media was replaced with ] , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. ]] 10:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
== Move of WP:NEO ==
Kevin, I posted a query at ] asking about the discussion of the rename that you mention in the edit summary for the move. I'm not sure if you've seen that, so I'm posting here to ask again. If you're referring to the discussion a couple of paragraphs higher up on that page, which you and I participated in, I have to say that it didn't look to me as if we reached consensus on any changes. Did you have a different discussion in mind? Thanks. ] ] 12:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
It appears that you deleted the article Santa Cruz Yachts. Please reinstate. This is part of a series of articles that several authors are working on. This was a work in progress which I began yesterday.
== Notability ==
There is a fine line between advertising and objective information. I am not attempting to promote the brand, but it is an extemely fine though very expensive product.
Hi Kevin: I agree that there hasn't yet been enough discussion on the "Level Playing Field" question but it seems that we are the only 2 editors interested - by making the edit I was hoping to get some comment. Any orther ideas?? ] 14:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I woudl appreciate some discussion before you make any more radical changes to my hard efforts.
Hi Kevin. Sure enough a major museum has now announced which will make thousands of otherwise unknown photographers "notable". Shall we try the suggested amendment and see if anyone else can comment on it? Or can you amend the suggestion? ] 05:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Sincerly.
==Personal==
] 19:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Listen, perhaps my comment was too personal and shouldn't have been made in that way. But I wanted to warn Truth About Spelling that you have been very aggressive in your editing. You were with me by reverting back to "rejected" after I protested. The normal thing to do in those cases is to temporarily leave the status quo in place and begin a discussion. I think trying to scare people off from contributing to policy discussions is a bit of a no-no too, whatever the reason. I felt that there was a bit of a problem in acting as if seniority was the only important thing in establishing an editor's credibility to contribute to a discussion. Isn't one's own adherence to policy just as important? Also, there was nothing wrong with Truth About Spelling's contribution. He was honest about his familiarity with procedure but was expressing an opinion on the substance of the issue. So what. Why shouldn't he? Anyway, there's discussion, now, other editors... It shouldn't be personal. But to be perfectly honest, I was offended by your aggressiveness. ] 15:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
:Another editor marked that article as blatant spam and I agreed so it was deleted per ]. I have restored it and moved it to your user space at ]. Please flesh out the article there and make it sound less spammy before moving back into the regular article space. Thanks. —] (]) 19:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
== Merging ==
:''I suggest that rather than jumping to the "spam" conclusion in the future, that you post your concerns at the discussion page, and or contact one or more of the major contributors.''
Yes, I see no compelling reason not to. ] 21:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
:No. Develop first, post later, skimpy microstubs written in adspeak should be deleted on sight: Misplaced Pages is drowning in spam and personal vanity, and puttering around in the hope that maybe one of the dozens I tag daily ISN'T spam this time would be utterly unproductive. We have no shortage of articles nor of spam; we do have a shortage of good-quality or even adequate articles: what's the hurry? Is there a prize for being first? --] | ] 23:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
and I agree <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::The ] speedy deletion criteria was added recently because of what Calton is alluding to - and I've heard that the directive came straight from the top including ] and ]. Just do some ] patrol sometime and you'll see the mindboggling amount of spam that comes in. Everyone is free to create pages in their user space - as I did - where you can let new articles gestate into something that doesn't fall into the ] category. —] (]) 01:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
== Bus routes ==
BTW, other articles you created are being marked as {{tl|db-spam}} by other editors. You may want to look through ] because I'm not sure they would survive ] if someone brought them there. —] (]) 03:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
You said, ''"The concept of having bus schedule in WP goes against the concept of ignificant or non-trivial"''. I tend to agree with you, but ] proves that other people disagree. Perhaps we should drop one or two of them on AFD to see what the community thinks. ] 09:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
==About your addition from ] to ]==
== A FACT IS NOT A POV ==
Hello Kevin. Let me try to explain what the problem is, and isn't. It isn't about copying from one article to another; you are of course right that this is indeed permitted. It certainly isn't about trying to sabotage your edit (and if you think so, I would like to remind you to ]. What this IS about is about what that passage of text is on its own, separated from the article it was taken. Please, first note that it contains no references. This may be due to two things: one, it could be that the material you transcribed is already reerenced in one of the references at the bottom of the ] article. Two, it could be that the article itself is badly referenced (that happens). Please bear in mind that I am not an editor of that article; I am an editor of the ] article. As you may have noticed, this article is rife with references: nearly every statement is referenced in some way. That is not the case for the section you added. It has been either separated from the main references of its article, or not properly referenced to begin with. The fact it was basically copied from another part of Misplaced Pages doesn't guarantee it's a good quality excerpt. Actually, it's not bad at all, just lacking references. That is why I put the (citation needed) tag and why a reference to the ] article will not do in this specific case. I hope now my objection (which is really rather simple) is clearer to you.--] 12:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Stop misleading people. ] 08:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
== AFD at ] ==
'''Note:''' Ramdrake's concerns have been acknowledged and addressed. A citation needed marker was placed at the Shockley article, which is well referenced in terms of sources but not footnotes at the paragraph level. Additionally I have provided some direct references at ] to the sorces cited at ] and otherwise. Shockley's information is included for a historical perspective only as his "work" was not compelling science, but brought media attention to this sensitive issue a generation ago.
The articles oringinal creator ] believed the most recent changes were vandalism and was trying to get the article deleted again. He was attempting to re-open a new afd. ] 15:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
== ] has been ] ==
:Please chip in at ]. ] 16:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
::I would specifically appreciate an outside view at the thread ]. What do you feel is the appropriate action? ] 16:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
==Help with WikiProject Aircraft==
I have nominated the article you created, ], for ]. You can comment in the deletion debate ]. ] 21:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Kevin - noticed you put your hand up to help. You might like to take a look at the list of ] and help fill in some of the blanks --] 23:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
==Editor of the Month==
:Please do not remove afd tags while the deletion discussion is ongoing. You are, however, invited to join the discussion. ] 22:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
You are my editor of the month for . ] 23:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
== ] ==
== Bula Kevin ==
I hope all is well just wanting your help following is the last message left on my Talk page by User David Cannon
----
:I'm sorry, but my decision still stands as '''delete'''. ] 01:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
''Your articles''
''Just letting you know that the decision of the AFD vote was to delete Turaga na Rasau, Turaga na Ravunisa, Keni Naulumatua, Keni Naulumatua II, and Mere Tuisalalo pending sourcing.''
''In practical terms, that means that if and when you can get a credible source to cite, as you have been planning, just let me (or any other administrator) know, and we'll restore the relevant articles. (They're still in the system, accessible only to administrators). ] 09:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)''
::. I have struck WP:CORP in my !vote. My decision still hinges on Google hits, regardless of which guideline we use. Sorry, I will stick with '''DELETE''' for now. ] 01:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
----
::: I'm afraid 1000 google hits would not suffice to establish notability. WHen I enclose in brackets, I come up with 10,000 hits, of which 452 are unique. Those beyond 452 are repeats.
:::] 01:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Even though my vote is delete, the fact that you are working this hard to bring the article up shows that you are a good editor. ] 03:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
:Lol :)... sorry, but no I am not a sailor. :( ] 03:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
with that in mind two weeks ago I left a but it appears with the message he left on his user page that he will be busy for some time and won't be able to respond to much of anything anytime soon, having said that I was wondering if you could assist as an administrator to restore my ] article so I am able to edit it, clean it up and then add all my variuos sources.
:::. Googlehits are really an indirect means of guaging notability. Searching the internet may also not turn up a lot on people who died before the onternet was created. Read ] for a better understanding, but basicly, if you can show that the subject is remarkable in some way-- natioanlly known, commonly known, historically demonstrable laike Wright, the best, the first, among the top contenders in their field and acknowledged as such by heir peers-- then that's probably notable. Regardless of how many hits they get on the nternet. What you need is to people to cite somw document that establishes the claim. Hope that helps
:::Also, you have a clear mind and reason well without being incivil. You should post your comments to the AfD subpage of the article. Your comments would be of interest to any editor taking part in the discussion and to the '''closing admin.''' ''AfD is not a vote. It is a consensus building process.''' An admin will look at the discussion, decide if their is a consensus and then act on it. The admin could decide that the ''delete'' position lacks merit and conclude there is no consensus or conclude consensus should be to keep. If ''keep'' or ''no consesnsus'', the article stays.
:::If the consensus is ''delete'', you can appeal that decission at ].
:::It's been a pleasure discussing this with you. You keep a cool head under preassure. Regardless of the outcome for this one article, I hope you stay and continue building Misplaced Pages. There are many, many articles that don't look as good as yours. You would be a real asset at ]. ] 19:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I would be grateful for your help and feedback on this matter.
== List of yacht manufacturers ==
Vinaka
I notice that every article on a yacht manufacturer that you've written so far has a long list of competitors and "past manufacturers & designers". I have two questions about that.
Maikeli
] 06:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
== Bula Vinaka Yet again==
First, since duplication of information is considered a Bad Thing at Misplaced Pages, I think the lists should be split off into separate articles that can be linked from each article in a "See also" section. What do you think about this?
I have just created two new articles one being ] and the other being ], your input and help would be very much appreciated when you have the time.
Second, what are the "past manufacturers & designers" lists? They're the same for each article so far as I can see, and it's not clear what they're supposed to be or how they're related to the subject of each article. I thought at first that they were entities that had previously done work for the company in question, but since all the lists are the same that explanation doesn't seem likely to me. What are they? — ] ] 04:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Vinaka Vaka Levu
:I'm going to go ahead and listify the competitors, since spam or not, they don't belong in each and every article. You didn't explain what the past manufacturers &etc where, though, so I'm not sure how to listify those. What are they?
Maikeli
] 02:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
==Fair use rationale for ]==
]
Thanks for uploading or contributing to ''']'''. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under ] but there is no ] as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the ], you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found ].
Please go to ] and edit it to include a ]. Using one of the templates at ] is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
:As for notability guidelines for companies, those aren't subject to meaning-changing edits without long, protracted discussions and a firm consensus. You're welcome to discuss it, but major changes cannot stand unless they have clear community support. ] is a working document, so changes to it disrupt the smooth working of the project. — ] ] 05:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on ]. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Missing rationale -->] 22:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if it's appropriate to add guidelines that encourage articles on small companies to be kept, and I'll have to hear the arguments that people come up with in the course of discussion before I'm convinced that it's something that will benefit the project.
==Re: ]==
As for "listifying", it's Misplaced Pages jargon for turning it into a "List of..." article. Reading the ] I clued-in that the "past..." ones are just historical ones, and the others are current ones. I'll go ahead and make one list for yacht manufacturers in general so that these lists can be removed from each article, and you'll see what I mean. It'll be at ], so-named to match ]. — ] ] 05:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you! Given all our conversations at ], your comment means a lot to me. Best, ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 20:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
== Nelson Marek ==
==Help request==
Kevin, a few weeks ago, you asjed if there was anything you coud do to help the WP:AIR project. If you are still interested, I have some sandbox articles that need some work to get ready for the mainspace. In particular, I need help converting text "copied" from other sources into usable, sourced, encyclopedic text. Rewriting text wholesale is pretty tedious for me, as I am usually better at copy editing and tweaking. If this is something you'd be interested in doing, please let me know. I have all my sandboxes listed on my userpage. The 3 projects I'm concentrating on right now are ], ], and ]. If interested, could you take a look at these, and see if you are able to help? Thanks for whatever way you can help. - ] 17:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently ], meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. ] if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]).
If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "]" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described on ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Orphaned --> ] 02:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I tried to make the original comment neutral regarding why, which turned out to be a good idea now that I understand better the motive behind changing it. I added to the comment to the effect that it was just due to a misunderstanding of how guidelines worked. Does it sound fair as I wrote it? — ] ] 06:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
:Comments at AfD are rarely completely deleted or edited. It tends to make people wonder why they were deleted or edited and cause trouble. Instead, the custom is to strike out comments that are retracted, and this is generally respected. This is especially so since only part of the comment needs retraction and the rest is still relevant. Of course, if anyone brings up what I wrote and retracted as "evidence" of some kind, I will object strongly that my words are being twisted to show something that I don't believe or support. — ] ] 06:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
== List of sailboat designers and manufacturers ==
== Judge Patrick Willis ==
Okay, I've created ]. It's pretty bare and basic right now, so feel free to tweak the wording. (Just keep in mind that most lists have pretty short introductions, just to give context, so don't go overboard either. That's what ] is linked for.)
Thank you for your support with this article. I really want to make a legitimate contribution, and I'm doing my best to fill in the blanks. I will find citations for everything, I'm working on it but it takes a little longer for non-internet sources. I only hope the article is not deleted before I can ensure it conforms to the guidelines. I'm going to get the citations, please let me know if there is anything else I can do. Thanks again for your help! ] 23:09, 17 June 2007
I went back and read comments about the propsed name change. I certainly don't have a problem changing the name. The reason I listed it as "Judge Patrick Willis" was that I found several other judges listed that way. What do I need to do to fix it? ] 16:56, 17 June 2007
I've changed ] and ] to take advantage of the list, so you can see how it works. (I also did some rearranging and formatting of them while I was at it.) I'm done for the night though and it's a long list of pages that need to be modified. If you want to do some more of them I'll check in in the morning to see how progress is. Otherwise I'll get to them soon enough. Cheers! — ] ] 07:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the help, and the compliment. I hope it was enough to save the article! ] 19:07, 19 June 2007
== WTF ==
We made it! Deletion notice was removed, the article's a keeper. Thanks for all your help! ] 21:49, 22 June 2007
Yo, dude, you need to run a spell check on your user page!
=={{{header-text|Notability of ]}}}==
== Help with sailing vocabulary? ==
<s>A tag has been placed on ], requesting that it be ] from Misplaced Pages. This has been done because the article appears to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the ], articles that do not assert the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please ]. </s>
<s>If you think that you can assert the notability of the subject, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add <code>{{tl|hangon}}</code> on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on ] explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm the subject's notability under Misplaced Pages guidelines.</s>
Hi Kevin Murray, as I've read that your an (English-speaking) sailor, could you help me with the following question? What is the English word for the "harness" worn on sailing ships to prevent people from falling over board (or from the ratlines etc.)? Is it "lifebelt", ''can'' it be "lifebelt" even though a different word is more common, or is "lifebelt" plain wrong, and that harness is actually called something different? Thanks in advance. --] 22:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
PS: Is there a forum on the English Misplaced Pages where sailing-related questions can be asked? Thanks. --] 22:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
<s>For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria ], ], ], or ]. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.<!-- Template:Nn-warn --> ] 10:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)</s>
:Nevermind me -- I'm a dunce sometimes. --] 10:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
== Your revert ==
== Image:German_salad.jpg listed for deletion ==
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. —] 23:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)<!-- Template:Idw -->
Hey Kevin Murray, would you mind looking at your revert of my edits ? In my edit I bolded the title per conventions, wikilinked the town its based in, added a citation needed, added some hyphens where appropriate, fixed a typo on the word service, moved a citation from the inside of a period to the outside (per convention), and removed references that you listed twice. In the version you just reverted to, the three sources you footnoted now exist in two sections. It only needs to be listed once (in the reference list generated by the footnoting). Would you mind reexamining your revert? Thanks, ] 19:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
== Leave It Alone Comment ==
==general N==
Current thoughts on general vs special criteria: --I've argued both ways from time to time, for the contradiction can be used to get any desired result. If anything, it shows we need flexible rules, because after all the real point is "encyclopedic". Current idea: special rules for broad groups, then 2RSs if needed to decide or if no other rules apply. and, personally, I would include anything in de WP except perhaps German local figures--I trust them more than I trust us here--but I do not see how i can propose that :) .''']''' 20:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
==]==
Revert? . The Cretan republics are some of the Greek city-states, almost all of which were republics - in any sense - at least at some point, ] being one of the few exceptions (perhaps the only one); including them is therefore redundant. The senses of ''republic'' on which WHEELER insists are all archaizing, being literal translations of '']'' or '']'', which could mean ], constitutional government, or (in some passages in Aristotle) mixed government. (Aristotle had doubts whether Sparta qualified.) There is no real point in including that in articles on "republic", except as cross-references.
As for people's republics: I believe the standard position to be that they were Republics, without being free states. ], for example, was a dictator, but not a monarch; his family did not succeed him.
Hi, I'm new here, but I really liked your comment.
Would you possibly consider looking at the AfD discussion on my article: ],
As for WHEELER's references, they are all, except for his Fearless Leader, Rahe , either dated or not English; most are both. They do not, in any case, belong in a list article, which is a navigational aid. ] <small>]</small> 21:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I really can not believe that there is so much dscussion about deleting it, while there are sooo many other articles that are weak.
== Template:Fewreferences ==
Please take a look and give me a strong or speedy keep if you agree. Thanks!!!
Hi, might one of the existing template do for this? ''] ]'', 10:34 ] ] (GMT).
] 01:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
==College football notability==
== Please be civil ==
Hello, I hope you are doing well. I have re-labeled ] as a proposed guideline. I'm attempting to incorporate new suggestions from the Guideline Talk page, as well as to generate new discussion.
I thank you for providing a link to ], that guideline is interesting, but not conclusive with respect to college football topics. According to WP:ORG, any team would meet notability criteria since they always are the topic of multiple non-trivial media reports. However, there are other questions that WP:ORG does not address. For instance, individual team seasons and individual contests such as bowl games.
Regarding this edit: Please be aware that personal attacks are very much discouraged on Misplaced Pages. Calling people "pompous" and "uninformed" strikes me as a personal attack. Please remember to be civil, and comment on the content, not the contributor. Thanks. --]] 15:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
* Sir, my reference was not to a specific person, but a generalization of a group of people who are fomenting an unfortunate trend at Misplaced Pages. The comment was not addressed to you or any other in the public domain, but to another member in a personal message on his discussion page in support of his efforts. ] 22:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
These have been issues that in the past have wasted cycles in AfD and other discussions, and for that reason a guideline for the college football wikiproject is still useful. ]\<sup>]</sup> 00:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
== Stono Bridge ==
*Hi Kevin, thanks for your note. Please don't worry, I understand your motives. You are right in a way, all these guidelines can lead to a slippery slope situation - but that can work in reverse too. We could just as easily say that we shouldn't have a general guideline on organizations (WP:ORG) because it could lead to someone wanting a guideline on college football!
:It would be fine with me if we just had one guideline - something like: "ANY topic is notable enough for an article if the topic is the subject of multiple non-trivial works." Until we agree on something that simple then instruction creep is a possibility.
:I would like though to respond to your tongue in cheek example of guidelines for bowling tournaments, knitting tournaments, etc. One answer to this type of question is to say that if/when those activities get popular enough for an active wikiproject, then it would be appropriate for that wikiproject to come up with notability guidelines.
:You may be right that it may be difficult to get agreement on a guideline such as this, but I see no reason why it should be impossible. The alternative is to have these debates one-by-one at AfD. That wastes everyone's time not only in the debate, but also in creating the article if it ends up being deleted. For that reason, it is far better to try to get a guideline in place so that deletion questions can be settled more quickly. Thanks again for your note. ]\<sup>]</sup> 00:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
== Thank you... ==
I've replied to your comments on my talk page. Good work. ] 02:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
...for you support at my RFA and (especially) for your hard work on the notability guidelines. I know you catch some flack, and I can't say I always agree with you, but I definitely think your efforts have made Misplaced Pages better.--<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size:11pt">] ''(])''</span> 04:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC) (p.s. please consider archiving this page)
== J. Edgar Hoover ==
==City councillors==
Edits should be discussed on the article's talk page rather than my talk page, so every interested person can contribute. I may have been the one who reverted your edits, but I hadn't someone else probably would have. ] 03:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for trying to update WP:BIO without enough prior discussion. We do need something that notes that for major cities we typically aim to have articles on all councillors. ], ], ], ], and many others either have articles on all members, or will in the near future. Something should be added to prevent the unaware users from nominating such people for deletion. I agree that the term "major city" is vague. Can you think of an alternate wording that would work better? - ] 20:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
:: Note the above contributor had reverted an article twice without discussion at the talk page, so I contacted directly. --] 04:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
:I very much agree that our various policies should allow articles on any councillors that get enough press coverage to write verifiable articles, but unfortunately that is not how WP:BIO is being interpreted. If you look at ], for example, you will see that a number of users are interpreting the page to mean that articles on councillors are verboten. This will continue without some change to that page. - ] 00:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
== ] deletion review discussion ==
=="Judgemental"==
Hello. I would like to discuss a comment you made. At ], after I stated my opinion that I believe the subject of the article fails ] and ], I then pointed out the promotional nature of the article. You responded with "''SWAdair, are you seeing him as being on the Grassy Knoll as well? Are you allegingg that Misplaced Pages editors have conspired to promote his book. Let's stick to the facts here and cease being so judgemental.''" Okay, let's review the facts: 1) On 18 DEC 06, I inserted into ], where an anonymous editor had added Moalem to the list of "most prominent scientists" (giving him first mention, no less), mentioned the author's soon-to-be released book and linked to a commercial site promoting the book; 2) On 22 DEC 06 a new editor created an article for Moalem -- this is the only thing this editor has worked on; 3) On 22 DEC 06 another new editor begins editing, inserting mentions of Moalem into several articles -- this is the only thing this editor has worked on. Now, it doesn't require a conspiracy theory to realize what is going on here. Someone is attempting to ] a ] individual and his ]. If you'll check my edit history you'll see that I take pleasure in saving articles from AfD when appropriate. This case, however, is not such a situation. This is a case where the individual does not meet notability guidelines already established and where the article is, IMO, a rather thinly-veiled attempt at promotion. I believe your "Grassy Knoll" comment was uncalled for, as well as the implication that I was being unduly harsh in my assessment of the situation. Forgive me, but when I see spam, I call it spam. ] | ] 05:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Although we were on different sides of this discussion, I appreciate that you remained civil the entire time while disagreeing with people's votes. It's not that usual to see people disagreeing in a civil manner lately on Misplaced Pages (and I'm an offender). I also appreciate that you asked questions and directed (or tried to) discussion towards the issues involved with either keeping or deleting this and similar articles, in an attempt to develop future guidelines, rather than focusing on the narrow issue of one article. Thanks. ] 18:30, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I read your comment. I'll have to take another look. Maybe I'm missing something, but he seems to be notable.
==Curtiss P-40==
--] 05:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The picture was "overlapping" the text because you changed its alignment from left to right in , which forced it up against the edge of the column.
I set up those paragraphs up in columns for two reasons:
:Fair enough. I have to admit that at first glance the list of things he has worked on or is working on impressed me. It wasn't until I did a line-by-line comparison between the article and the notability guidelines that I determined he didn't make the grade. The bar is deliberately set high and he isn't quite there yet. He comes close, and may very well meet those guidelines within a year or two, but right now I think he just misses making the cut. ] | ] 05:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
# a general rule of layout is that pics in text should alternate between right and left alignment, unless they are in a vertical row to make point (e.g. they represent a sequence of events).
I went back and reviewed through why I opposed the deletion. I can't and won't dispute your allegation that someone may be manipulating Misplaced Pages as you say, but that is independent of the criteria supporting the notabilty of the person in question. Life is not always fair, but in this case these issues are independent, and I believe that your allegations at the AfD discussion are irrelevant and unrelated. Being nefarious and notable are not mutually exclusive. Sorry to be on the other side here, as I expect that our goals will generally be aligned.
# to avoid ugly "]s" within the text.
I'm not sure why you wanted that pic on the right anyway(?)
--] 05:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
] | ] 02:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:Again, fair enough. I can live with that. :-) I appreciate your taking the time to review things. Happy editing! ] | ] 05:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
:Kevin, I don't know what browser you are using, but I checked this in both Internet Explorer and Firefox — maybe you are using something else.
== Brill/Bardia ==
:Here is the page before you changed the alignment: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Curtiss_P-40&oldid=144019569
You wrote:
:My but you are strict! But since we are now on the same page, I look forward to a spirited discussion at ]. Thanks! --] 22:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
-- perhaps bcz you saw me in , and i'll have to rehabilitate myself by ferreting out my stash of nice-pills <br>--]•] 08:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)<br>
:Here is the page after you changed it: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Curtiss_P-40&oldid=144020207
== Clarification ==
:Regards, ] | ] 03:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi there! Sorry, I didn't express myself very well - asleep at the wheel at almost 1am. What I meant was that the information must be able to be corroborated from some source other than[REDACTED] - and yes, that could be books, radio, TV, or the web. ] 11:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
==]==
Copyedit form my page: "re: Lindbergh Hi. Don't want to get into a pissing match here, but this seems like a reasonable statement. Do you dispute that Lindbergh was the first to fly nonstop from a mainland location to a mainland location? Perhaps I'm wrong on this. I have only been trying to edit other contributions into a more clear and concise text. I don't want to be difficult, but don't want to see good information omitted without reason. Cheers! --] 18:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)"
Hi Kevin: In response, this article was the subject of a considerable edit war recently and I had to ask for administrators to redress the problem. As to whether this is a reasonable or not statement, it is not germane to the flight of the Spirit. Neither Ireland or Newfoundland can be considered "obscure" islands which were the start-end points of previous Atlantic overflights but nonetheless, the Orteig Prize was intended to recognize the first flight from New York to Paris, with a specification that the flight be non-stop. That is the claim to fame of the Lindbergh flight. Introducing an element of first "mainland-to-mainland" claim is fine but it was not what the Orteig Prize was intended to do. Raymond Orteig was a hotelier and promoter who saw the chance to exploit the Atlantic flight to raise the prestige of his hotel and incidentally that of France. The main notability of Lindbergh's exploit was that it was a solo flight as differentiated from the other competitors who had a multi-person crew (and often a twin-engined or larger aircraft type). I will include the note in the body of the text in the description of the flight's legacy but I felt that it was not the historic recognition of "mainland-to-mainland" that should appear in the introductory passages but the successful navigation of the Atlantic from New York to Paris in a solo flight. FWIW ] 19:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC).
==Lyn Duff==
== Relevance drafts ready for editing/comments ==
Well the article has ''some'' positives. It's quite detailed and has plenty of sources, although quickly moving the mouse over them to see the link doesn't make me think some of them are going to be particularly reliable. Looking at the bigger picture though, she seems to be an unremarkable journalist for the majority of her career. The international work is ''possibly'' more noteable, but she seems to be independent rather than employed by any major network or news agency, and I'd imagine there's a plethora of people with similar credentials. I'd definitely be in favour of deleting rather than spending time cleaning it up. ] 23:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Kevin,
==Stono Bridge==
I reverted the edits you made today on the Stono Bridge article. I did so for several reasons. First, you removed all the historic information from the intro. This info needs to remain in the intro for several reasons. First, an intro is supposed to summarize most of the article giving the reader a preview of what is to come. Second, by asserting notability in the first paragraph, the article is immediately considered to be notable, and thus usually not subject to AFD votes. Also, when moving sentences around with citations please be careful you take the full citation code or the citation will not appear properly in the reference section. Second, you seemed to have rearranged a lot of this stuff I had added. I don't mind this in the least as long as everything continues to flow smoothly. But I felt that a lot of the edits you did made the article a lot harder to follow. I also saw that you added two links which I had removed. The first was commentary on the building of the tunnel from what appears to be a blog. Blogs are not considered reliable sources, and as such I try not to use them or link to them in articles. The other links went to a mayor's state of the city address I believe. I only found one mention of the bridge in there following a brief once over. As such, I removed it. Please let me know if you have any questions, or comments. I don't mean to be rude in my actions, and am glad that article is now in much better shape. Thanks! ] 04:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Father Goose and I have developed competing versions for a possible guideline on relevancy. I note you have previous participated at this project. Your contributions would be timely now.
* Draft <s></s> ] by ]
* Draft ] by ]
My draft is the current proposed guideline only because I made mine after Father Goose did his. This is not to suggest either version is favored. Thanks for your interest... —] 03:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
==Thankyou==
== Thanks! ==
Thanks for your encouragement on my edits to the ] page. It's nice to see editors who don't take bold editing personally and are willing to be supportive. I'm busy with family stuff for Christmas for a bit, but I'll do a full revision of the page as soon as I get a chance. Thanks again, ] 05:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm actually not a newbie, just newly editing. That being said, I can always learn more and I'd love to get your feedback. I'll make a post on the VP soon and let you know. I'm editing ] right now, so i want to finish up that the section i'm working on before i jump to a new "train of thought" so to speak. Many thanks for your friendly attitude, it's a rarity around here. <small><span style="border:1px solid #003366;padding:2px;background-color:#E8E8E8;color:#df6108;">] ► ]</span></small> 15:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
==Stono Bridge==
I apologize if I offended you, that was not my purpose. I was just trying to put things back where I thought they best fit. I reverted your edits for a number of reasons. First, the lead the article has now is too short again, and the historic information should be mentioned there. I would point you to ] regarding the duplicate information. The lead is meant to summarize the entire article and mention any high points. Next, the history section as it stands again I feel is poorly put together. Starting the entire history section with "This is among the sites..." doesn't flow well. I also don't like the history section as it now stands. Also, you removed the information about the construction accidents. Those were not copied and pasted, the source was cited. Maybe I did not rephrase them enough, but the information should be in the article. I also noticed you removed the price of the bridge. I think that should be in the article as well. I would also give the Stono Bridge more attention. If you do not do that in this article someone will start an article eventually called the Stono Bridge. At that point any mention of the history of this bridge outside of the fact that is sits on the site of the old stono bridge, will have to go to the other article. ] 13:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:It happens. A handful of editors basically railroaded their way over me and an entire project. It was a whole big mess and lasted about a month. A lot of nasty things happened and most at my expense. I eventually lost my cool with them and told them to "F-off" very publicly when nobody would step in and offer good help. I went to the MedCab, RFA, and a whole mess of other things. An admin even got into it with me (or me with him depending on your perspective) and then started using his admin powers to silence me while he falsely accussed me of things, talk about improper behavior huh. But whatever, one projects loss is anothers gain (well - at least i tell myself that to make me feel better about it!).
==Hornsby==
:Anyway, I have not seen any "guidelines" in place for striking comments. I've seen small mentions of it here and there, but no real guideline or policy. Am I just not looking in the right place or does this need to be considered for guideline inclusion? I added this page to my watch list to make it easier on you. <small><span style="border:1px solid #003366;padding:2px;background-color:#E8E8E8;color:#df6108;">] ► ]</span></small> 16:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:: Can you clarify what you mean by striking comments? --] 16:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::* <s>Here is a comment that has been struck</s> I have opened a discussion (per your advice) ''']''' <small><span style="border:1px solid #003366;padding:2px;background-color:#E8E8E8;color:#df6108;">] ► ]</span></small> 17:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:::* OK so your concern is over regualtion of people striking out your comments? --] 17:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, like I said, I don't really want to go down that road with them again. I don't particularly care and this person, and the rest of them, will certainly bring up the issue they have with me being a ] who has been banned. I will certainly refer to ] in that my edits are almost exclusively based on bettering the content available and the I tend to lean more towards the "deletionist" attitude when dealing with repetative content. I am just thinking that establishing some guidelines for the use of striking comments will help people understand when it is an editing tool to be relied on. <small><span style="border:1px solid #003366;padding:2px;background-color:#E8E8E8;color:#df6108;">] ► ]</span></small> 17:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::::And btw, i'm not saying I am a sock, only that they accused me of being one and then found me guilty. It was a pretty ridiculous situation. <small><span style="border:1px solid #003366;padding:2px;background-color:#E8E8E8;color:#df6108;">] ► ]</span></small> 17:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I referred your request to another Wikipedian ] who specializes in air force bios... Most congressmen, have official bio's to reference.
:::::* You are implying but not clearly stating your concern. Aside from the past politics, I believe that your concern is that people/admins are striking out your comments at discussion pages. Is that correct? --] 17:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::: Sort of, but not exactly. My concern is that a user is striking another users comments unilaterally. The fact that it involves me is imaterial as I don't care what happens in this case. I simply think establishing some guidelines could be useful to the community as a whole. <small><span style="border:1px solid #003366;padding:2px;background-color:#E8E8E8;color:#df6108;">] ► ]</span></small> 17:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::* But this has to do with talk pages only, not strikeouts on the articles themselves. --] 17:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Well, the instance I am familiar with is only on talk pages. Then again, I would think that the guideline could/would extend to all articles in general. The best that I have seen is a brief mention of striking at ]. <small><span style="border:1px solid #003366;padding:2px;background-color:#E8E8E8;color:#df6108;">] ► ]</span></small> 17:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
==your comments re MoritzB==
:-]
you wrote:
] 22:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:I read your comment at MoritzB's talk page, and looked bit deeper into the issue. ] seems to be a common term (pleasant or not) used frequently enough so that WP has a disambiguation page. I can't speak to MoritzB's motivation in inserting the term into the gems article, but it does seem plausible that it is factual (see coral) and that his intent was appropriate. I don't know the history of your relationship with Moritz, but the harsh accusation may be unwarranted. Cheers! --] 17:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
My comments and Ramdrake's comments were harsh if you approach the question as a supporter of white supremacy, which MoritzB does support. The role of MoritzB on many pages pertaining to race history demonstrates that fact.] 03:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
::Kevin, I'm going to edit it a bit more, I'm worried its not strong enough yet, and the original author and the hornsby photo have disappeared.
:::-Bruce <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (]) 04:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
== Re: Google Hits Criteria ==
Skywriter, I can only evaluate Moritz based on limited experience. However, we should remain civil at WP. He is entitled to his political opinions no matter how unsavory they might be. So far his comments have been in suggetion of Jewish supremacy which vastly differs from the mainstream white supremist position. Cheers and to better times together! --] 04:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I read your deletion criteria at Shukri; I think that citing Google hits is a dangerous precedent to be following, since the WP guidelines do not specify that notability be established by online sources. I think that g-hits are a tool for demonstrating notability, but an absence on Google (etc,) is not cause for deletion.
I was not aware of your appointment as defender of MoritzB or of guardian of civility. If MoritzB wants to race-bait, then MortizB reveals self as race baiter. Nothing uncivil about that if you like race baiting. Calling race baiting what it is -- is factual.
Clearly this was a weak article, but we are finding credible sources under other spellings. Under the assumption of good faith why should we doubt that the Cairo museum is a valid source of information? I realize that some things aren't easily verifiable, but this isn't a murder trial.
Further, you overstepped your bounds in failing to take changes to talk page. You seem to overlook that there has been recent active discussion on talk page of Race and Intelligence. You don't seem to be a big fan of seeking consensus especially in the presence of active discussion. The removal of the Melvin Konner reference will not only be reverted-- it will be expanded. The link to Amazon merely was to show his book was well-received. Someone else removed the citation which I will reinstate. He has a point of view not represented in this article, and an informed one at that as he is both an antbropologist and MD.
Cheers!
Cheers.] 04:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
:: I would prefer that you not try to pain me into a corner as an appologist for an unsavory position. I am merely politely reminding you of the WP Standards of civility. If youd prefer, I'll just refer future issues to an admin, although I'd rather just keep in between editors. --] 04:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
--Kevin Murray 03:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that you stop taking comments personally, particularly when they are not directed at you. It is factual that white supremacists as well as anti-racists are editing this article. Whether or not you see one or the other as unsavory is quite beside the point. Whether or not you choose to run to an admin is entirely your option.
:Citing GHits is one method for helping to describe relative notability (or non-notability). It would be just as egregious to not cite a total lack of GHits as it would be to not cite millions of GHits for a notable subject matter. While the lack of GHits for a topic does not mean that a subject is non-notable it does indicate that offline sources are going to be necessary and for an online community to debate notability of a subject that can only be verified offline is more difficult to discuss and will take more careful attention to avoid reliable sourcing and avoidance of hoax articles. There is no reliability that the name of a museum is a source for what is contained in the article. For every U.S. flight-related article it would be inappropriate to reference the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum as a reliable source for the same reason. There's no faith that just because the article concerns a military commander in Egypt that a Military Museum in Egypt is going to reference the information. Besides, would that information be verifiable by the front desk? An expert within the museum? We should require that sources be explicit and fulfill the needed role of verifying the information being claimed by an article. Could you see how false information could easily be introduced by vandals if we were to accept ambiguous or completely unverfiable sourcing simply because someone typed it in once? ] 04:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
] 04:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
::It's quite OK to cite offline sources, as long as they are specific, e.g. book, title, author, page nos, publisher, date etc. If someone challenges it, it's up to them to look at it. See ]. However, there are specific guidelines for certain areas such as museum archives (I can't find them offhand). ] 04:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
==]==
== Awards ==
] ] 18:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
== Triscuit ==
Thanks for your work on this. Now the AfD is closed can I ask you move the page to whatever the offical name is (Paul Gelogotis Bridge? Gelogotis Bridge? Stono Bridge?). Thanks! ] 04:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Triscuits and Wheat Thins are tied for number one in my book, but VERY close to Chicken In a Biscuit. So you need to lower your blood sugar, and I need to raise mine (hypoglycemic). Odd, but I have seen you at Guinea Pig as well. I have no idea what they have in common, but for 4 million users, this place seems increasingly small to me. I got seasick just looking at your contributions. Haha. ] ] 02:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
==The Original Barnstar==
== Call for editor participation at Relevance ==
Hi Kevin,
] requests your presence — see, ] at the ]. —] 17:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
== Actively demonstrating non-notability ==
I've seen you're very active in the area of notability on Misplaced Pages. I've asked a question about actively demonstrating that an article is not notable. I would really value any thoughts or comments you might have.
Many thanks! ]<sup>]</sup> 13:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
==]==
As I've mentioned on the article's talk page, the photo could be a later Charger Loading Lee-Metford- it's not clear enough to tell. At any rate, the only real difference between a CLLM and a Charger Loading Lee-Enfield is the rifling, so as such I think the picture should stay until someone finds a better one... given the relative scarcity of actual MLM rifles, I think it's going to be a while. --] 07:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
== Image:C320_Profile.jpg listed for deletion ==
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== Image:C400_Aft_Cabin.jpg listed for deletion ==
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== Image:C470_Laundry.jpg listed for deletion ==
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== ] ==
Not sure why, but you deleted stuff on this page- it's not meant to be modified (sorry if you had a good reason- I can't think of one at the moment). Perhaps you meant to edit the listings at ]? ] 01:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
:No problem- but... you did it again. ] is being used as a template on the list page, so you should edit the listing, not the box. If you want to remove an image from the list, just edit ] and remove the particular line which calls the template with the image that you're concerned with. If you actually blank Suspiciousbox, this will blank ''all'' listings, which we don't want. ] 11:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
==White/Black people==
Oh, I 100% agree about these articles being unencyclopedic, but it's been "voted" they are. They've been up for deletion a couple of times. I couldn't believe there would be such articles on an encyclopedia and made a big fuss in the begining. Oh well. Thanks for the offer of the back-up. I get a little heated about these subjects, just because they attract all kinds of strange attention. Me included. lol. Cheers! :) ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 9 August 2007 17:52 (UTC)
== On ] ==
Let's hope that's what they mean by "building consensus". :)--] 19:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
== white peopel ==
hi, thanks for acknowledging my changes.
i added gordon brown to keep the article more up tyo date (he is current british priminister) but mainly to show a more representative picture of brits. With tony blair in, there were 2 brits with light hair and light eyes (john f kennedy included), so i added a dark haired and dark eyed brit, as about 30% of brits have dark eyes and most brits have dark brown hair anyway, only a minority have light hair. Most brits have either dark or mixed eyes and most brits have dark hair.
I think the german pictures might need to be changed to include a dark haired german aswell as most germans dont have blonde or light brown hair.
Im trying to iron out national stereotypes.
about the basque, by all means keep the photo of this person, i just thought the astronaut was more famous.
cheers.
== germans ==
sure by all means change the german or austrian, but i think a dark haired and maybe dark eyed german or austrian should be included, again merley to iron out national stereotypes. germans and brits are not much darker haired than the french afterall and yet the french person chosen has dark hair.
im off now.
peace.
== Mediation? ==
Would you agree to informal mediation (]) in order to try to resolve our disputes over ]?--] 00:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
:I believe the mediator would like each of us to formally agree to opening the case: ].--] 22:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
==]==
Your approach sounds very reasonable. As I say on ], I am not altogether opposed to celebrities. ]. ], but not Tom Cruise, Margaret Thatcher or Saddam Hussein. I do hope you can further improve the collection, but I guess I got tired of the task: it's difficult enough in itself, but the bickering by all sorts of ideologists that comes with it makes it near-impossible. ] <small>]</small> 13:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
:let me add that I am not opposed to galleries in general either. But any gallery with a claim to encyclopedicity will need to annotate each image, at least with the area or ethnicity of origin of the person depicted. ] <small>]</small> 13:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
an alternative would be using mugshots of Wikipedians who are willing to reveal their ancestry (]). There is some room for debate regarding ] here, but I am sure we can get some good images in this way -- have a look at ].
Let me add that I am intrigued by your self-description-by-userboxes: not that I'd agree with everything you say there, but I'm definitely with you regarding the 'beer' and the 'speak plainly and honestly' parts. We need more of both, but especially of the latter :) ] <small>]</small> 15:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
==Wikimedia Commons==
If you haven't used Wikimedia Commons before, it can be a little confusing. You can find information at ]. Briefly; you want to go to ] and recreate the gallery there, and then link to the Commons gallery using {{tl|Commons}}. If the images are stored locally here at en:, you'll need to upload them to Commons first. While this may sound like extra effort, ] has the advantage of allowing every project to use the media stored there, and is increasing.ly set up to handle searching and rendering media more efficiently than any of the text-based projects. Unfortunately, I'm remarkably busy at the moment; otherwise I'd pitch in and help with the particular article in question. You could ask the person who tagged the article to lend a hand if there are a lot of images to move over or if the process is confusing. ] 16:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
==Image copyright problem with Image:Monica B 2.jpg==
]
Thank you for uploading ]. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Misplaced Pages takes ] very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the '''license''' and the '''source''' of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a ''']''' to the ].
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the ]. Thanks again for your cooperation. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. ] 22:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
==WP==
Hi
It seems that some of the other editors have ceased any discussion and are blindly reverting any edit that I add. They have formed some kind of a cartel. I think this is counterproductive for the article. I am open to discussing the edits. Ramdrake has indicated that he has retired from[REDACTED] and so has Jeeny, so I think you are the only neutral editor who is left.] 23:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
== black and white ==
hi. (1) I agree with you about no quid pro quo, taking each article on its own terms. (2) I do not believe that anything I wrote on the Talk:White people page (or any page) has ever implied that I think an article should be perfect. I doubt that that is possible, and the very fact that this is '''Wiki'''pedia means that ''all'' articles are ''always'' works in progress. That means that no article is ever "finished" so obviously no article will ever be perfect. But the fact that every article is constantly being worked on/in progress ''should'' mean that every article is betting ''better'' and that was all my comments were meant to address: ways to make the article better. However, if you are speaking purely of standards, of ideals, I do think that our standards should be very high. What makes Misplaced Pages different from Encyclopedia Brittanica is what makes a free-enterprise economy better than a planned (and centrally regulated) economy: an economy in which everyone is free and competing to be better will lead to superior products. It is also the idea behind open-source software like Linnux versus somthing like Microsoft: thousands of people working freely and constantly trying to make something better will do a better job than a hundred engineers following some manager's directive. But whether you believe in open-source or Microsoft; a free-enterprise system or communism, surely people's goals are the same: to create something better. I would hate it if engineers at Boein thought that it didn't matter if their work wasn't "perfect" - what would happen to the American air industry (and, would I be willing to fly)? We expect the people who make our cars and computers to do the best they can; we expect the best possible product affordable. We shouldn't settle for anything less here. Misplaced Pages articles are very often among the first five or ten google hits for any topic; it is becoming an internationally recognized brand like Toyota or Sony; hundreds of thousands if not millions of people turn to it for knowledge. We shoulld give them the best we can. And: I ''really'' sincerely do not believe that several editors taking time to read books in a library or look through journal articles is at all onerous. It takes time and effort but still nothing compared to the effort that goes into most goods that are in high demand! It is a sad day for America (or England or wherever most editors are from) when people who want to write encyclopedia articles thinks reading book or journal article is just too much work! America ought to have the best education system in the world, not be second-rate or strive for mediocrity ... editors of Misplaced Pages (I think most are American) should reflect that, I think ... ] | ] 23:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
==Jolie==
Some are from the "Dark continent". Jolie had facial reconstruction? I don't really mind about removing her from the picture, until maybe a suitable replacement is found. ] 03:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
== Mediation Cabal Case ==
Hello, you have been listed as a potential participant in an informal mediation regarding a dispute over ]. The case page is listed at ]. I am looking over the case, and am willing to offer my assistance in this. If you are willing to participate in the mediation and willing to accept my offer to mediate, please let me know. Thank you, ] ] 22:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
==Mediation qualifications==
Hi Kevin, I saw your posts and wanted to comment to you that just because someone is an administrator is not a good enough reason to be a qualified mediator. A lot of admins are very young -- not that there's anything wrong with that. I do agree with you that someone who is to mediate this situation have a broader life experience, and knowledge of WP policies. Another thing, I think it's better to NOT have an admin to act as mediator for they have other issues to deal with, blocking, moving, vandals, etc. Mediation groups, or members, are supposed to know how to mediate and know certain WP policies for content disputes. There should be full concentration on the case, without the other duties that admins have to deal with. JMO. See what I posted on the mediation project page for more on my opinion on this issue. Thanks! ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
: Interesting. Where was this discussion held? I'd like to take a look. --] (]) 23:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
:: I'll check the 3O archives perhaps, or ask Jeeny. --] (]) 23:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
==Thanks!==
Thanks for the help on ]! ] 01:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
== Trivia ==
Well, as per your request on the ROC talk page, I'll describe my views to you on trivia in general. I guess that's what you're asking for.
I got sucked into the issue months ago ] when I saw an editor wipe out some fairly interesting material with an edit summary "removed trivia as per WP:TRIVIA". I reverted him, and pointed out that the guideline said "integrate, don't delete", but he was just dead set on getting rid of it, like too many other editors are.
I started studying the situation and saw how many editors deleted trivia left and right claiming the guideline supported them. And plenty more who deleted without bothering to say anything. A month later when Android Mouse Bot added {{tl|trivia}} to thousands of articles, there was an upswell of support for trivia, and I tried to get ] de-frocked, but was unsuccessful. I retrenched to just trying to change the line "''Some trivia is especially tangential or irrelevant, and may not warrant inclusion at all.''" since it's an open-ended loophole: "integrate trivia", it says, "but delete anything irrelevant"... which is the entire trivia section, to some editors.
Although I got a few supporters in trying to change the wording (one of whom was Coppertwig), the deletionists watching the page wouldn't even tolerate even the addition of the line "''However, Misplaced Pages has no standard for relevance.''" So I changed my focus and started work on the Relevance guideline. And yes, it does have to be a guideline, or else people won't let ] defer to it on matters of relevance.
I actually support the overall thrust of WP:TRIVIA -- trivia lists are a crappy way to present information. But again, that bloody loophole is intolerable. And the deletion of trivia is in some ways worse than the deletion of complete articles, because the latter are at least subject to a debate (]), but content can be deleted without any sign that it was ever there, unless you happen to have been watching the article.
What I've been trying to do here is assemble a reasonable standard on content that walks the middle line. Trivia shouldn't be an excuse for articles get disorganized, but I want to retain all content that can plausibly be shown to have some value, and give clearer ideas on how to integrate it, since WP:TRIVIA is very unspecific about how to accomplish that.
Those are my views on trivia, relevance, and on content in general. And those are my goals for the proposal as well. Equazcion is an "inclusionist", as am I, as are you, WikiLen, Coppertwig, and DGG. Of those who have expressed opposition to the proposal, only DGG has been willing to explain his objections and help strengthen the proposal's inclusionist foundations -- for instance, by spurring this edit: . The proposal still needs plenty of work in the "content" section, but the more people contribute, the more likely we can find the right ways to say things. We also need to include more language in defense of lists and list articles; they've been taking a pounding lately.
Like you, I'm wary of using examples; I tore almost all of them out after the first draft. The proposal won't work unless we can get it to say straightforward, sensible things in a general way, and I was trying to fix those remaining faults when you and WikiLen drove up in a hearse.
There is a chance here to strengthen Misplaced Pages's inclusiveness, and I hope, I just beg, that we can get past our differences -- or is it just a misunderstanding? I've never understood why you've objected to the proposal, especially when you've said complimentary things about it in the same breath.--] 05:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
:Hi, I don't know if you watchlist other people's talk pages, but I replied to your latest message on my page ].--] 04:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
== Mediation Case ==
Hello Kevin, I just wanted to let you know that, as a part of informal mediation, I have asked everyone involved to make a statement. Would you mind making a statement at ]? Thanks, ] ] 13:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
==OK==
OK, I didn't mean to step on anyones toes. I can't agree to having some obscure manager of a multinational corporation as being representative of Welsh people though. I am Welsh and this person is totally unknown to me. There are certainly far better examples of Welsh people out there. How did such an obscure individual manage to get by such a vetting process I wonder. I'd suggest ], ] or ] as far more appropriate. I'll have a think about it and make a suggestion on the talk page. Thanks for the message. ] 17:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
* I put that picture up. I've been critisized for ahving too many politicians, I couldn't find a good picture of Tom Jones and Catherine is so heavilly identified as being hispanic at least in the US -- does she really typify a Welsh heritage? It seems to be damned any way you slice it. --] 17:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:I can't understand how Catherine Zeta Jones could be identified as Hispanic, it doesn't make sense to me. She's totally Welsh. She's from ] and became famous in the UK for acting in ] on the telly. Take a look at her[REDACTED] entry. She also has an image on[REDACTED] that is copyright but states that it may be used if it is attributed, see ] ] also has an image on the commons ] and any commons images may be used. ] also has a commons image ] but he's probably not that notable outside of the UK. While the current Welsh person represented is clearly notable he is not very recognisable, even to his fellow countrymen. I don't want to fight over this so if you feel that it's good to represent people other than politicians and celebrities then I can understand this. Sorry if I cane over as brusque earlier, it was not my intent. All the best. ] 17:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
== Gallery ==
Yes, ok, sorry for the delay in replying! Untagg it them. Cheers. ] 17:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
== Portuguese non-political ==
I'll try. Soon, I promise. ] 17:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
==Whatever==
Whatever, you know what I meant. The idea is stupid. ] 18:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
== Re: We must have a policy for the company lists ==
I am posting this in reference to your post on ]. I have trying to get this serious issue across for along time now, but no one seems to be interested. May be instead of bundling those lists in I should go list by list and get them deleted. After the first few debates it would not be difficult to figure out most, if not all, the ''keep'' arguments, as well as the counter-argument. But, I guess that would go against ]. Well, after seeing somuch ignorance, while this silly lists proliferate, I'd rather igonre that policy and concentrate more on ]. Please, advise. I am posting part of this to the policy discussion page as well. ]<sup>(] • ])</sup> 23:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
==Essay move==
As discussed on the village pump last week, I'm starting to move essays to people's userspace if they haven't been edited by others (not counting typo fixes etc). Since there's a lot of pages in ], I'd appreciate some help. Other people suggested deleting some of the worse essays, or adding {{tl|merge}} tags as appropriate; I'll leave that up to people's discretion. ] 11:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
==Re: Your gallery question at the Village Pump ==
Hi KM,
I saw your question about galleries at the Village Pump and I agree with your position completely. I've added some galleries to articles myself, both pictures I've taken and lots of old postcard pictures I happened to find on eBay's Web site (see ] for example). I'm pretty sure, but not absolutely sure, that I'm improving articles with these, but I'd be opposed to any kind of a ban on gallery sections to articles. If you ever run into any conflicts over inclusion of a gallery section in an article, please feel free to ask me to join in forming a consensus, and if I'm not extremely busy, I'll try to help. I can't guarantee I'll agree with anything, of course, but I'm generally pro-gallery.
I've been hesitant to upload images to WikiCommons, where the concept of gallery pages won't be a problem, because the stated purpose of that site is to share pictures. The old postcard pics I tend to upload (along with the pictures I'm beginning to take) tend to be for locality articles (] for instance). I don't expect that most of these pics would ever be wanted outside of Misplaced Pages. That makes me worry that WikiCommons might decide to delete them someday. If you have any opinons on that, I'd love to <s>hear</s> read them. ] 03:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
== Relevance ==
You mean the ] page, and assorted discussion? Hm, I'd have to read up on some things there, I hadn't been following that debate. ] 14:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
==European people==
I think you should take advantage of present changed circumstances to readdress the split of the article if this is what you want. As a european (who incidentally frequently visits UCB) I find it in excruciatingly bad taste and quite unscientific. The separation into two different articles as Slrubenstein has suggested could
solve many of these problems and produce good and instructive articles into the bargain. Cheers, ] 21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
== Policy and guideline modification ==
Perhaps I ought to have been more clear about my own standpoint. My comments on ] were meant to illustrate the problems or inaccurate impressions which arise when the expectations or notions inexperienced editors butt up against established policies and guidelines. Sometimes where such a conflict occurs, the response from such an editor is along the lines of, "I think Misplaced Pages should work in ''this'' particular way, but the long-established guideline/policy says it ought to be ''that'' way. The policy needs to be fixed, so that it conforms to my view of what Misplaced Pages ought to be."
The solution to this problem isn't to make it easier or faster to adopt, repeal, or modify Misplaced Pages guidelines or policies. Rather, it is to continue to provide assistance and guidance to new editors to help explain why many of our policies are the way that they are. It may be appropriate to include more reasoning and explanation in the bodies of some Misplaced Pages policy documents. It could be helpful to assist these users in finding resources like the ] or the ].
On relatively ''rare'' occasions, a policy or guideline may require massive overhaul or repeal. In general, our systems work passably well under such circumstances. As a rule of thumb, the larger the effect of a proposed change, the wider the consultation required to assess community sentiment and to be able to make a change 'stick'. For something like repealing a guideline (on Trivia, say) that would affect thousands of articles, ''very'' broad discussion would be required—and such a suggestion is unlikely to succeed. ] is a good primer for editors interested in making policy. ](]) 17:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
== Content policy analysis ==
]: let's try to synchronize our views on this subject so that our continuing work on it can be more effective.--] 23:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
==Essays==
I take it you have seen the history of this issue? The older version kept getting tested because it isn't clearly written. The newer version remained in place for six weeks, stable and uncontested. Radiant moved it back to the much older language, including, e.g., "Essays tend to be opinionated." Well, yes, but this is not a definition. Anyway, obviously it is in need of discussion. Discussion is also at ] ... ] 20:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
==]==
I don't know of many templates that are designated as policies or guidelines :) The intended role of this template that you created (please correct me if I'm wrong) is to mark the designation of a Misplaced Pages page as disputed; however, this function is already covered by {{tl|disputedtag}}. Would you mind if I redirected your template one to the other one, or if you ]'d it? If there's something I'm missing about the role of this template, though, please fill me in! Happy editing, ]<sup>]</sup> <span title="User talk:Kevin Murray">§</span> 03:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
== Essay ==
Thank you. I've placed some musings on the POL talk page. I believe I'm in favor of either heavily rewording the essay bit, or getting rid of it entirely. ] 09:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
== WP meetup ==
{{San Francisco meetup 3}} -- ]/<small>(]) </small> 07:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
==License tagging for Image:Laminate sails.jpg==
Thanks for uploading ]. Misplaced Pages gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Misplaced Pages, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an ] applied to the ] indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.
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This is an automated notice by ]. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at ]. 22:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
== "having an expectation of constraining behavior where it is a major departure from expectations" ==
This can be interpreted in several ways, hence the request for elucidation. :-) --] 03:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
==Just curious==
You don't need to answer, but I've seen that you've edited ]. I would like to know if you know much about the area? Thanks. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
==Dr. Spam's barnstars==
My reply on my talk page. Cheers. ] 20:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
==RE:Merge tags==
Perhaps I should have used clearer wording: the mass merge proposal appears to be rejected, so there's no point to putting up merge tags. If you want to readd them, then fine, I won't revert it, but I think the discussion has shifted away from merging into just editing them to be more concise and perhaps merging one or two of them individually. --] <small>]</small> 00:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
== Opinion request ==
Hi there! I would appreciate your opinion on the following two issues. First, whether it's a good idea to word ] similar to the other guideline templates (e.g. ]). And second, whether ] to the style guidelines should be considered a proposal or an essay. Cheers, ] 10:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
== TfD nomination of ]==
] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> — ] 18:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
==]==
Please note , he has removed the template again and I don't want to revert him anymore. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
:I might've done that but I think it is notable, certainly in Israel where there have been many references to it by ] - maybe I'll have some free time soon to add them. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
== ] ==
I'll go check it out and see if I can lend a hand. :) --] 17:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
== Oktar ==
Boy are you a trooper even for trying! It will take me some time to sort out what is going on there and I don't feel ready to comment there. I wonder whether the red ink editors are not sock-puppets, but it is just a feeling and I have no reason to make an actual accusation. There seem to be many arguments going on: can you pinpoint for me one or two very specific issues I could comment on? In the meantime, there are two other editors who I trust and I think you can trust them to comment constructively here: ] and ]. I suggest you leave for them the same message you left for me. ] | ] 17:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
== Simple question ==
How do you find out the number of edits you have? ] 16:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
== ] & ] ==
I value and appreciate very much your contributions to the above discussions. --] 17:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:Could you please "fine tune" the latter in case my Merge proposal goes vthrough? Thanks. --] 23:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
::You now deserve an award of recognition (--] 00:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)): ] - where you put some beautiful touches on a former unesthetic article. --] 00:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)]]
::::There is, in my opinion, ] on the article/(s). I maintain that Misplaced Pages requires that we state what scholars said - it's not a place where Wikipedians should speculate "Why so many Jews were Bolsheviks." Thanks. --] 00:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
== Bolshevics ==
Please don't confuse "third opinion" with "mediation". The opinion was asked about a very limited issue: inappropriate page move. I have been repeating multiple times: I have no interest in article content and don't want to discuss it now. One has to resolve one conflict at a time, otherwise talk turns into a mess. `'] 18:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:Mikka says we need articles like ]. I deduce from that (in the context of his remarks) that he also believes we need an article on ]. I imagine that, from your Irish-sounding name (and self-image on your Homepage) that you would have an appropriate personal response to that. Whichever way your reaction goes, I suspect it will bear some fruitful and productive consequences. Cheers & the Best to you, ''Boatsman of the Seven Seas'', I am ] 00:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
== Notability of religious figures ==
A question came up on ] about notable religious figures. I understand you put the rejected tag on the proposal. I'd like to know more about your decision. Some things that puzzle me:
* ] makes the point that awareness of notability sometimes depends on field of interest and ] recommends using <nowiki>{{expert-subject}}</nowiki> when verifying non-notability. Given that this proposal is about religious figures, it would seem that those who study religion (i.e. the participants in religion projects) would have something useful to contribute to the question of (a) whether or not this policy proposal is well formed and (b) whether it should be stand-alone, merged into ], or eliminated as redundant. There are at least 34 religion projects listed in ]. Which projects were notified of this discussion? Of a pending closure? I can't find anything on ] page and I read the page fairly regularly (of course it might be there and I missed it).
* The rejected proposal was accepted even though only one of the participants in the prior discussion affirmed the rejection proposal; (as the one who closed it, you will forgive me if I recuse you from the discussion. Also you only expressed a preference for reject over historical, but expressed no explicit opinion about the merits of the proposal). Did you see a consensus and why? As I see it, this person's opinion is not representative of the discussion either before or after. There are a wide range of opinions and solutions presented including 3-5 in favor and 3-5 with no explicit vote:
** '''Accept'''. ], ], ] and possibly ], ]
*** ] feels that notability may not extend outside of their religious community and the terms of the community may not be the same as the general population.
*** ], ] accept but feel the proposal needs reworking and they each invest time in writing alternate proposals (which shows a certain degree of commitment to their position).
*** ], ] do not explicitly express approval but they defend criteria 2.
** '''No explicit vote expressed''':
*** ] proposes a test for accepting or rejecting but expresses no opinion. No research based on that opinion was provided by any party.
*** ], ], ], ] discuss condition 2, but do not explicitly express a vote.
** '''Reject'''. ], ], ], ]
*** ], ] feel that ] should cover all religious figures because they will meet reference test.
*** ] feels criteria 1 and 4 are redundant. 2 and 3 are unnecessary (appearing in scripture is notable by definition). 5 cannot be determined without OR. ] concurs.
* Misplaced Pages doesn't make decisions by vote count, but rather the strength of the argument.
** At least two of those rejecting the proposal do so based on the quality of the criteria. This issue is addressed by two users who provide alternate proposals. We will never know whether or not these new proposals would satisfy the objections of ] and ] since the proposal was marked as <nowiki>{{rejected}}</nowiki> before they had a chance to respond.
** The second reason was redundancy. Of those that express clear rejects, none are members of religion projects (at least as evidenced by their user boxes or categories. This is an important issue and bears discussion. But until members of one the religion projects agrees, I would be inclined to see it only as a discussion point. ] and common sense would suggest that those who are not actively studying religion are less likely to understand the difference between a religious community's definition of notability and that of the general public.
Confused, ] 19:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
''From talk page of ]:''
:It is not about a vote nor about persuasive arguments; it is about demonstrating that the consensus of the WP community supports a policy or guideline either directly or through practice. This has not been the case on religious figures. Despite having some support from the participants in the discussion, this proposal only reflects the opinion of a tiny minority of the millions of WP contributors. Policy and guidelines are purposefully difficult to implement at WP, or else we'd be drowning in personal opinions labeled as policy or guidelines by energetic editors. Despite your hard work and good ideas, the proposal did not gain traction, but that is typical of proposed guidelines. ] 11:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I did not work on the proposal at all - though I would have liked to. I didn't even know about it until well after it was closed. Furthermore, my concern is that the proposal was not given either sufficient time or exposure to make a determination of whether or not it had gained traction.
Based on my reading of the arguments, there was no consensus (yet) that could be used as a basis for closing. As for the proposal representing a tiny minority - we can't know that unless the proposal is well publicized, which this clearly was not. Finally, "tiny" is not a relevant reason for rejection when there is a risk of systemic bias by imposing a general standard on a topic that is of interest to a few. That risk makes it all the '''more''' important that we expose the topic and get a fair representation of voices and perspectives.
Also as a practical matter - we have 34+ projects that make assessments on religious figures - don't you think it might be reasonable for them to want a standard specific to their assessment process? The participants aren't all religious fanatics - some of us study religion academically and others of us (without academic backgrounds in religion) go to great lengths to avoid POV when writing on religion topics.
I have a hunch that you are a man who likes to get things done. Perhaps a month is a reasonable period of time to evaluate a proposal, but in this particular case I think it is not. September, particularly this September, is a very, very busy time for people who have religious interests. The Jewish holidays came early this year and occupied many of us throughout September. Professors of religion in secular institutions and Christians, Jews, and anyone in a tradition that provides religious education to children probably had their hands full with getting their respective educational programs off the ground.
Best, ] 12:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC) (PS I've a temporary watch on your page - to keep the conversation flow clear lets continue it here)
== ] ==
Thanks for your third opinion. Yeah, I agree that there is subjectivity in selecting some elements important enough to be described over others. I'm unsure what you mean by "reviewing the song rather than just reporting the facts." I'm confident that everything is pure description, or at least, as you say, within "the normally accepted practices at WP." The article is about to be GA reviewed and it would be a shame to see my work disrespected /quick-failed because of that tag. As an outsider, per the third opinion process, are you able to remove it?
Of course, if you have any specific constructive comments relating to how the article could be improved, I'm happy to address them. Cheers, ]] 22:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
== bainer ==
I have moved ] to ]. -- ] 10:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
== Re: R&I ==
I am asking you to protect the current reversion of the R&I article which reflects your compilation of the various articles, for a period of a week and then semi-protection for an additional two weeks. With the best of intentions too much has happened too quickly including additions in a time where we are trying to consolidate. As the massive amount of recent micro edits was impossible to evaluate, I've reverted to your lat version. We really need some time to evaluate and form a plan. I like the KISS overview approach, but this is an emotionaly charged topic and there will be no clear path. Thanks! --] 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
:I see Guy has already protected the page. I think it's important to point out that while I tried not to duplicate any material when merging the articles together, there are some sections which significantly overlap; there are two sections on ], for example. I would encourage people to keep chopping and changing things around to see how it looks, though in draft copies if not everyone's happy with it being done to the main article. --] (]) 10:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
== Race and intelligence/backgound ==
{{subst:nn-warn-Another detailed article on same subject ] already exist. User can contribute there. Other expert users can verify importance of contribution from this user. Articles related to race-intelligence are sensitive.|Race and intelligence/backgound}}
== draft ==
Hello. Please note the creation of this user subpage ] (per suggestion of Moonriddengirl). Drafts should not be in mainspace. Cheers, ] 15:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
== Thanks! ==
Kevin, thanks for being reasonable about my reversion! I can see you're doing important work (there are lots of stale proposals out there), and I hate reverting, but this proposal is really only just beginning. You might like to take a look at , as well as . Cheers, ] 02:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
==In Remembrance...==
<imagemap> Image:Lest We Forget.png|450px|left
rect 1 1 1027 747 ]
desc none </imagemap><br clear=all>
--] <sup>] <span class="plainlinks"></span> ]</sup> 21:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
== Hey a recent message you sent ==
Hey you recently posted a message on MoritzB user page. I thought I would inform you that he was blocked indefinately a few days before you posted your message as a result of his dispicable right-wing racism on wikipedia. Yours on the left ] 12:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
: Hi. In situations where I contact contributors to an article to stimulate participation, I generally try to pick arbitrary but objective criteria such as has contributed in the last X-months. That is why I contacted Moritz, not because I agree with his politics. One of the great things about WP is that the majority of contributors bring us to center on most issues. But even the most polarized among us often brings some good to th project if we can endure the uglier issues. Cheers! And keep up the good academic work. --] 15:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
==R&I==
''Hi. I'm satified that the section we are working on is good enough to enter to the article, but I would have like to see broader participation if just for people to say it looks OK.''
::Ug. I know, me too. I wish more people would jump in and say something. Post a note on the R&I talk page that today is the "last chance" for this section and then we should move on, or else this will take forever. Can we get a mod to put the new section in?
I think we should work on the subsections all at once. I find that less confusing. ] 15:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Kevin, just to let you know that I gave a look-see at the section and changed a few (minor) things. Looks good.--] 16:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
==]==
Sorry, but after reviewing, I just can't see it. Too much primary sourcing, too little independent material used. I think maybe there will be an article to be written in a few years, but especially on a living person bio, should wait for substantive independent sourcing. Perhaps better to write about his blog? As to the refs, I think the AfD participants should see where the sourcing is purported to be from.
On an entirely unrelated note, there's a ] that archives talk page posts after they go stale. Pages this large can be really hard on dialup or slow-broadband users. I've used that bot for a long time and it works great. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
* I have voted to keep. One thing that can be done is to write an article on comixtalk to strengthen it as a reliable source. Its used in many articles as a source. --] 16:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
*The Minnesota Public Radio spot looks like a claim of notability, but not the PC World one. Can you provide evidence of the reliability of the comixtalk site? ] 16:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
**I agree that comixtalk looks like it's independent of the subject, I just don't know if it's considered reliable. I guess I'd probably go with a weak keep. I'll go over and do that now. ] 17:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
* I don't think you need to remove the references to his website and comix. They are most certainly allowed. You can quote from people's posted resumes, and you can quote from people's online biographies, and you can directly quote from movies and books. I am going to restore them. --] 17:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
* Please help create content for ]. --] 17:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
*What rule are you citing about the prohibition on autobiographies, I have never seen it. The articles on ], ] and other world leaders always use their autobiographies. Auto can always be used for verifiability. --] 17:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
:I wish I could help, but I'm seriously under educated when it comes to WP:BIO. ] has been working on some WP:BIO articles, you might want to ask him to look over the article. I know that it is a lot easier to identify sourced information if you use in-text citations, it helps keep the ] out of an article. But, as far as determining whether the sources there are reliable enough to warrant an article, I don't know because I'm not that familiar with BIO, or comic artists. If they talk about his accomplishments, then that's a good sign. ] ] 17:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
==Don't really care==
I just hope the rules are more strictly interpreted if someone happens to write an article about myself. - ] ] 18:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
== Response ==
Hi Kev. I've given my <s>considered</s> careless and casual thoughts, and I enjoyed doing it, so thanks for bringing that to my attention. I don't feel strongly enough about the issue to vote delete (or more correctly merge), but that is certainly the way my thinking was going. It seems to me that the webcomic is the notable thing, and so it would be appropriate for the author to be discussed within the comic's article. If he creates another notable comic that would be the time to split him out into his own article - but for now, it seems possibly a bit too much. Though, as I said, I'm not strong on this view. Many regards <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">''']''' *]</span> 19:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
== Seriously... ==
Archive your talkpage man! You must have the longest talkpage in the history of talkpages. This talkpage will become legendary - but it may burn out a few dial-ups in the process! <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">''']''' *]</span> 19:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
* OK I did it. --] 19:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
==]==
Just be aware that you have to have reliable sources to write a bio from. There may be plenty of reliable sources for the comic, but not for the person drawing it. ] 19:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
== Mitch Clem ==
Yea, AfD is a busy place. Yes, we are all pressed for time and merging or adding cleanup tags for {{tl|Tone}} tags is not always done when they should be. Then you have people making suggestions that it is OK to add 3,000+ unneeded articles and people wonder why we have problems and not time. For the record, I'm not the best bio person which is why I did not comment on the nomination, yet. But as you noticed, I did some trivial cleanup and maybe my edit comment will help improve the article so that it is less objectionable. ] 19:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
== Mitch Clem ==
You asked for my opinion; sorry it took me a few days. Basically, yes, I think the guy is probably notable enough for an article, there are several independent sources. However, the article uses self-published blog entries way too much, it needs to be cut back. ]]<sup>]</sup> 15:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
==Titanic==
Hi there Kevin. Apart from your having more hair and probably more money, you and I share a startling amount. German-Irish, military buffs, the list goes on. I also hold a Master's Licence and was a senior merchant marine officer for many years. I have found this is not always an advantage in naval Wiki work, often you have to let "sources" prevail, even if you know quite positively that they are wrong. Titanic is an example, there is much uneducated speculation around, and it has found its way into respectable publications. But let's give it a try! ] 02:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks for the invite, Kevin. If I am over there I'll certainly take you up on it. Have a great boating weekend. ] 13:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
== Mitch ==
Well, it looks like a reasonable article to me, but I think the problem is that it has so many self-referential sources that this appears to drown out the sources that aren't self-referential. I can see why people could interpret this as a vanity piece even though it isn't one. Perhaps it's possible to combine some of those source entries. HTH! ] 12:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
==Sailcloth stats==
Check your spelling on the PNG Image:Sailclothfibers.png - should be "Statistics", but is currently "Statisitcs"
] 02:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
== Neutrality Project ==
Hi, I'm trying to ensure that the ] has not become inactive. If you would still like to participate in it, please re-add your name to the Review Team list. <sub>]</sub>]<sup>]</sup> 07:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
== Reply at ] ==
I have replied to you over at ]. In my mind, this whole situation is a big misunderstanding. At first I am reverted (by mistake, I think). When I try to correct it with a more complete edit summary, along with a message on talk, not one editor deigns to even leave a meaningful edit summary. They all just keep reverting me, thanks to a sort of hive-mentality. So far you are the only one who is willing to talk about it. Thanks, ] (]) 13:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
:In response to your reply on my talk page, the words were added as a partial revert of edits by 71.7.218.110 who ''deleted'' the word stupid, ''from a direct quotation''. In addition he/she softened language which was directly supported by the references provided. Honestly, please see the revision history before charging me as a vandal. I did use edit summaries. By the way, I don't like being told to register so I can gain credibility: Misplaced Pages allows for anonymous contributions. I believe it is clear that I am trying to improve the article. <s>] (]) 14:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)</s> ] (]) 14:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! (Especially for trying to follow that complicated bit of work ;-) ] (]) 15:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Should all the other category levels be changed as well? (I.e., '''Television show''' to '''Prescription drug addiction'''?) I don't think these were supposed to be under the '''Rush Limbaugh show''' caption. 15:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Your entry at ] has been copied to ] --''']''' (] - ]) 16:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
==Titanic again==
Hi Kevin. Want to go further with the Break-up section of RMS Titanic, or was I insufferably pontifical? ] (]) 11:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
==Veeramanidasan dispute==
Hi Kevin, thank you for your comment on the ] talk. I would like to clarify on your statement on "Ownership". Please take note im merely an initiator of the mentioned wikipage & ive been maintaining the information, picture, reference all the while infact its still under progress. A person suddently comes up claiming he is the actual ancestor of the mentioned wikipage and said he have the all rights to modify. The wikipage is of a living person (a noted devotional singer/musician). My stand point is simple, im not claiming ownership of which ever wikipage that i initiated. Im only asking for solid proof for the irresponsible modification with the claim of rights to modification. Hope you dont get confuse with my statement on the talk page. Im only preserving & maintaining the neutrality of the wikipage, since someone came in and make a claim, i left no choise rather then to defence my standpoint. --]] 01:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
== ] ==
Why don't you actually explain what you think is wrong with the Rationale section? The discussion on the talk page is about a separate issue and does not apply to the wording of the Rationale section that you keep deleting. —]→] • 22:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
:: I oppose any addition to a guideline or any additional guidelines which adds bulk without adding clarity. While I don't specifically dispute that veracity of the section, I see no additional clarity to offset the potential confusion. --] 22:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
==RMS Titanic==
I see no reason why my recent edits to the RMS Titanic page were removed. Perhaps I am wrong, but I am under the impression that ANYONE can edit pages, and as long as the edits are pertinent and accurate, there should be no reason to remove such edits. I would think you would be happy someone is taking this page seriously and contributing accurate information. I have read other comments on your discussion page and this same problem appears to happen frequently. I will continue to contribute accurate and pertinent information. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Removing IP Address? ==
I made a mistake and edited a page in a browser window that was not logged in.
As a result, my IP address appears in the History for that page.
I do not like this at all.
Is there any way I can remove this?
Thanks a lot!
] (]) 05:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
::: I'll pass this on to an admin. --] (]) 06:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
::::Thanks a lot, Kevin! He or she might want to contact me at User_talk:Prignillius ] (]) 15:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
== Apology accepted ==
Kevin, I accepted your apology over at AN/I. That is all I ever wanted ;-) I too looked at who you were prior to opening the issue... and noticed a number of similarities as well. Both of us are conservatives and I noticed your numerous Barnstars... so I am more than eager to let bygones be bygones and move forward.] (]) 20:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
== How to fix the Additional criteria section ==
Hi Kevin. Do you think you could spare a moment comment on this issue?
*]
Thanks. —] (]) 09:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
== Your message ==
Thanks for your kind words the other day. Yes, for now I'm an occasional contributor, and I expect to continue, but perhaps not with the enthusiasm I formerly did. ] (]) 15:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
== Re Episodes ==
Well, the {{tlx|historical}} template includes the line about consensus being unclear. It shouldn't be marked as an essay, because it shouldn't be followed the way it's written. I suppose rejected is okay too, but since it was used at one point, my preference would be historical. '''] ]''' 22:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
== Citizenship and nationality guideline proposal ==
I reverted your edit to the ']' guideline proposal, which you marked as 'rejected' and described as 'dead' in your edit summary without justification. Please note that if you do not agree with a proposal, the appropriate response is to explain your reasons for disagreement on it's talk page. Given that this proposal is only a week old, and that just two people other than myself have commented on it (one against, and one in favour), it is obvious that no consensus has emerged either way. – ] 14:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
== R & I ==
Hello, Kevin. I think it might be a good idea if you actually made a general statement about editing on the talk page of the article about the consensus on editing. I could not find anything. I think if you started a new section with such a statement, that would be helpful. Then in the spirit of that statement, you could revert my two words yourself, but not the three wikilinks which have all been discussed. Cheers, ] (]) 22:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
==Merge proposal==
It has been proposed that ] be merged into ]. Your input is desired, so please comment ]. ] <small>]</small> 11:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
==Kindergartens & Obedience==
I'd be glad to provide some sources discussing the function of kindergarten as "obedience" training:
This is from the ], which helped design the modern American school system. It reads: "Perhaps the most important lesson of the kindergarten is obedience; obedience to law..."
Or from this textbook on teaching elementary schools: "Disorderly primary grades make troublesome pupils for later grades." and discusses the importance of the teachers preserving the respect of authority in their students.
And this one might be considered a bit biased, but I threw it in there because it is nevertheless informative:
And like I said on Torc2's talk page, I think that any person who has been through kindergarten will remember being required to raise their hand to speak, ask permission to go to the restroom, walk in lines, etc. This is not POV, it is just the reality that nearly every kindergarten student( in the United States at least) has to deal with. There is no doubt that obedience is one of the central lessons of most kindergarten programs, and I feel that this deserves some mention.
==Hello==
Why did you revert the change I made to ]? I see in you edit summary you said you were reverting 'undiscussed' changes. But both SLRubenstein and myself seemed to be in agreement that the word 'caste' was inappropriately used there, and you yourself added nothing to the discussion about it on the talk page. The article is horrid enough as it is, so surely cleaning up non-controversial terminological inaccuracies is hardly a big problem. (the 41.* person) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
==Warning ==
You are violating ] and ] by reverting blindly. I would like to invite you to undo your reverts, and participate in the consensus process. --] (]) 15:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
* No, it is you who are subverting the processes here with your constant and persistant POV pushing at several core pages of WP. You seem to have become a virtual single purpose editor and make little contribution to the actual content of the encyclopedia. I think that you should really take a good look at your performance at WP and stop slinging about accusations of edit warring and improper conduct. --] (]) 16:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
:: Heh, I don't add as many articles as I used to, but I still do so, you know . :-) So much for single-purpose editing.
:: POV-pushing applies to the main namespace, not to policy maintenance and debates. I have been maintaining policy for quite a while now, after having learned some of the ropes from mentors dating back to the founding of wikipedia.
:: I am quite familiar with the policies on edit warring and on consensus, having participated in their writing, and I'm pretty sure you're in violation of both, at the moment. Would you care to discuss why I think so, or would you prefer to continue on your current path? --] (]) 16:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
:::Kim, we have a history of disagreement, and are unlikely to find a middle ground here as I absolutely dispute the entirety of you last three comments. We have both stated our cases at the pertinent pages; others are now involved and I suggest that we each stand down and let the process continue with other participants. --] (]) 16:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
:::: That would take me out of the process of policy maintenance, something I have done for years. On the long run I would have to refuse. On the shorter run, however, it is almost always possible to find some kind of agreement between all participants. Would you like to request mediation, for instance? --] (]) 16:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC) <small>''Typically mediation works best when people *are* still holding a civil discourse, and would like to continue doing so :-)''</small>
::::: Kim, have a nice weekend. Cheers! --] (]) 16:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
== Hmm ==
Kevin,
Reverting IPs adding interwiki links like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Notability_%28people%29&curid=286178&diff=181839697&oldid=181788503 because of lack of discussion on the talk page seems a bit odd. Did you click the wrong button? --] ] 13:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
:Very simple. In this case a legit use of another language wiki added interwiki links once their language wiki had a corresponding policy page. We don't have single logon implemented yet so they don't typically have user names across the whole of language space, and end up anon on en. This is a common practice. More to the point you should not revert things just because you do not understand them; you need to check the changes first. --] ] 21:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
:I sympathise, but I think benefit of doubt or agf applies. --] ] 07:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
==]==
]
Another editor has added the "{{tl|prod}}" template to the article ], suggesting that it be deleted according to the ] process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also ] and ]). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages or discuss the relevant issues at ]. If you remove the {{tl|prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to ], where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. <!-- Template:PRODNote --> ] (]) 23:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
==Peer review?==
RE:
*]
*]
*]
*]
While I still have some work to do there, I'd like another sailor's perspective on where I'm going with these pages. SVP
:] (]) 17:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
==R&I==
Hello. I have now returned from the Bay Area, which was a little rainier than I had hoped for. I am currently being personally attacked by Jagz on the talk page of R&I for upholding consensus. He has said he would report me for vandalism for removing a confusing template that he chose to display. He has also decided that if a proposed content change on the talk page receives no answer in 2 days, that means it has been approved. I find that he is rejecting the scholarly approach advocated by Slrubenstein which I thought had been agreed upon. It requires patient and hard work; from what he writes Jagz doesn't seem to take such an approach seriously. He accuses me of debating for the sake of it. It seems that the lack of honest and careful scholarship is one of the main problems with the article. If you object to his editing methods, please could you reason with him yourself? He has compressed and wikilinked the Stereotypes section, which I did not object to, although he did not properly ascertain consensus. His proposed summary of the IQ gap of Rushton, however, is worrying to me: the presentation does not seem to be properly balanced as far as I can tell and no context is provided. Cheers, ] (]) 10:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
== Revert on WP:CONSENSUS ==
I noticed the edit summary on your revert on WP:CONSENSUS. It's somewhat ironic; the way that we find consensus for changes is by making them, so we can't expect to have consensus for edits before they are made (see ]). It may be that you have specific concerns about the edit, but your message on the talk page and edit summary come across as resistance to editing in general, rather than to the specific edit being made. — Carl <small>(] · ])</small> 12:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
:"(1) fewer rules, (2) clearer rules, and (3) stable rules." I completely agree with (1) and (2). I find it very strange (but not surprising, in the end) that the ] is so long, given that we have ] anyway. As for (3), the entire wiki system is designed so that things are not stable. Even getting the ] extensions enabled is contentious, because editing is a foundation principle. Moreover, our policies are not written with stability in mind. When someone writes a policy, they expect that it will be edited mercilessly and updated as consensus changes. If we were going to have stable policies, we would need to greatly change the way that text becomes policy in the first place. The policy documents already in place gained consensus under the assumption that any problems that arise in their wording can be easily remedied. — Carl <small>(] · ])</small> 16:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
My view of the project namespace is that it is a kind of small encyclopedia (or[REDACTED] ;-) ) about what consensus exists on[REDACTED] at any point in time. Similar guidance applies to this mini-wikipedia as applies to the main one. Some guidance doesn't work though. Like I would love to be able to make everything in the project namespace ], but unfortunately, most of that information is in people's heads.
Also, since my first interest is in making as clear descriptive documentation as possible, I get very frustrated when people try to treat the project namespace as a place to make rules, and try to block other people from "changing the rules". In reality, it is true that ''some'' people abuse the project namespace in that fashion, but that it is not really intended to function that way. The best way to make sure it functions correctly is by setting a good example. --] (]) 22:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Wait a minute, you actually want policies to be more clear and concise? Wow. Don't you know? Here's ] of what is possible, if there is mutual trust,and people work together, and use consensus. See the talk page for ] to see how rapidly that came to fruition.
So now what I want to get done on ], is to document the process that actually leads to such pages, as well as pages in the encyclopedia itself. We should be able to do so in a clear concise way.
I haven't done maintenance at the consensus page in a while, so I started out by placing several basic core points in a separate section. This tends to get the juices flowing in lots of wikipedians, and several folks were indeed gleefully (wiki-editing is FUN! :-) ) gearing up to do a wholesale refactor (as they have told you), until you went and put the process on hold. :-(
I'm worried that you don't actually trust the process, or me :-(
Note that no, this is not spillover, see also my comment ]. I've been maintaining that particular page for quite some time. I just hope I haven't started to feel like it's ]er ^^;; --] (]) 04:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
: The structure of[REDACTED] is a very interesting one. Hmm, do you think that that my way of working makes[REDACTED] into an anarchy, or that I am old fashioned, or that[REDACTED] dynamics have changed over time, or ... could you specify what makes you distrust the consensus process? --] (]) 05:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
: The process for editing articles is different from the process for editing policy, though the major differences are not really documented very well. (for instance ] is unfortunately not usable, though I wish it was.)
: --] (]) 08:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
: Your answer on ] is interesting. As I suspect, you think that the policy pages represent actual rules.
: Compare your view of policy and policy page editing with how the game of ] is played. Do you see similarities or differences?
: --] (]) 08:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
: You seem to prefer formal discourse, and strictly accurate wording. I have adjusted my writing to this preference where possible/appropriate, and will continue in this manner. --] (]) 08:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
: Heh, we're both getting pretty heated. I have to admit I do actually have trouble discussing things with people who have a certain attitude about policy. There's apparently some fundamental concept that fails to get across, and both sides get utterly frustrated! It's probably my fault, but I'm not sure how to correct it.
: Tell you what, to make up for it, if we ever meet IRL, I'll buy you a beer. (or, if in Egypt, a Root beer ;-) )
: In other news, did you see my offer at ]? That seems like something constructive we could both get behind. --] (]) 01:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
:: I'm confused, what does IPA stand for, in this case? --] (]) 04:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
::: In lieu of sitting down with a person over a good pint of beer, I've had a lot of good experience talking with people over skype. It's not as good as meeting face to face, but at least you do get voice. Do you have a skype client? I'll send you my skype-id and so over email. --] (]) 19:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC) <small>This does not void my offer for a good IPA at some later date, of course :-) </small>
I haven't heard back from you. Perhaps I missed your e-mail? --] (]) 08:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
: Your position on a number of issues is not entirely unique (nor is mine), so it might be useful to learn the reasoning behind both sides. On-wiki discussion apparently isn't working, but hopefully voice might work! --] (]) 04:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
: Also, I'd like to edit the consensus page soon, and I'd rather try to pre-empt long debate, and have you on my side instead. :-) --] (]) 05:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello again. As we have not had the chance to have any real-time communications, we have now (predictably) come back to a collision course. I believe you have my phone number and other contact info? I can re-send it if you have lost it. The ball is in your court there.
Meanwhile, as we are arguing about ] itself, I consider this something of a last stand to maintain wiki-procedures. I try to avoid conflict for as long as possible, but do not avoid it at all costs. In this case, (and with due respect for your own good intentions as well) if we cannot come to an understanding, I do intend to fight this out through ]. I hope we can stop short of that point! --] (]) 19:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello , Thank you so much for trying to answer. To be able to negotiate with you, to find a compromise and ultimately to find consensus, I specifically need your own rationale for your actions. I'm looking for some kind of grounds for your actions that we can negotiate about.
This is different than what other people's reasons for their actions are, other people can speak for themselves! At the same time, I also think it is unfair to you for me to simply accept a concession without any form of rationale as well.
You have reasons for your actions, and that is what I am interested in. I would like to respect those reasons as best I can within my own framework of reasons. That's how I hope to be sure that my actions will have your respect and support in future.
Of course, a similar story also holds true the other way around, and it is also true for interactions with other people.
I try to discuss things with one person at a time, specifically those who have opposed my actions de-facto (as these are the people who I still need to find consensus with) . That makes you a very important person for me to talk with right now. :-) --] (]) 01:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
'''"OK Kim, how about this as a compromise?"''
I don't know that it's a compromise, but it's going in an interesting direction. :-) It basically needs finishing. I've left some critical notes on the consensus talk page to that effect. I notice I've been a tad strict. I hope that's ok. --] (]) 01:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
: I love flow charts! (Because I'm good at them). I spotted a couple of bugs and some room for refactoring. I left a note on the talk page and I hope you can fix them. (or, if this is simply the method that people use... don't fix them, and explain that on talk... that would be as interesting or more interesting.)
: Right now I might edit, but on the other hand, I'd like to see full documentation of the method you are using to edit wikipedia. :-)
: --] (]) 22:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about the repeated points. I got caught in an edit conflict while still working on them and hadn't noticed. I just dropped what I was doing on the page, and proceeded to prepare a reply relevant to the new state of the discussion. Whenever you see (ec.) or (e/c), be suspicious that the text that follows might have some issues, but has been left for you as a courtesy or for reasons of completeness.
In this case, I was rechecking my work, and hadn't seen the chart change under me, you were that quick! :-). The newer points as posted refer to the newer chart and therefore may still be of some use, which is why I posted them after the edit conflict, rather than throwing them away. --] (]) 23:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
When you made the edit about documentation, I noticed we don't really have a good (if brief) description on the consensus page at all. So reverted myself and created a new section on that topic, which was probably the right thing to do in the first place. :-) --] (]) 03:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
==Hajj Amin Elahi==
Dear Kevin, thank you for your message. I am all ears. Ps-the New York Times citation is only to prove the date of death. Thanks--] (]) 11:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
== Silence and concent ==
I hadn't looked closely at this for 24 hours or so; it seemed "your" version was a more radical departure from recent history. Per talk, I'd probably be happier with a non-consensus essay than an attempt at crafting a policy to please everyone. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 23:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
:I reverted to that version, but that wasn't otherwise me; I haven't been messing with the tags here. I can't think about it too much more now as I'm off to my weekly ]. I felted a guy (took all his money) last week when I shoved on a straight draw following a raise and a re-raise, and they gentleman who called was very upset at my action (especially as I made my draw) because he had flopped a ], and so was drawing to a full house. And he was right, I was way behind, but if I played all day long with the fear the guy across the table hit a miracle flop, I'd be paralyzed all the time. Which, if you followed any of that, is the same way I feel about writing policy with a mind to how all the baddies out there might use it to ] the system. You just end up paralyzed. So I'd tag this as an essay with an eye to possible promotion maybe somewhere down the line if it sinks in. But ain't really the one babysitting this guy, so I'll see what others think. -- ]<sup>]</sup> 00:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
==Your recent edits==
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to ] and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should ] by typing four ]s ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the ], and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button ] located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you!<!-- Template:Tilde --> --] (]) 23:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
==AfD nomination of Hajj Amin Elahi==
I responded to your comment on the article's ]. Hopefully it adequately addresses your concerns. ] (]) 23:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
== re: ] ==
Good evening, Kevin. Thank you for your wiki-email message. I've replied off-line. I hope that I wasn't too incoherent in the reply.
Would you be offended if I asked both you and Kim to take a day off from editing those pages and let the rest of us catch up? We all need some time to filter through and consider what you've both said so that the rest of the community can participate in the discussion.
Thanks. ] <small>]</small> 00:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
==]==
Kevin, would you consider adding to the article in question--and perhaps weigh-in on the AfD on it? ] (]) 15:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | I hereby award you the Original Barnstar for your efforts to help stem the tide of thoughtless deletions. ] 17:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
{|
|
]
Hello, Kevin Murray! I'd like to call your attention to the WikiProject Germany and the German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I hope their links, sub-projects and discussions are interesting and even helpful to you. If not, I hope that new ones will be.
* ] |
* ] |
<br>
|
|}
|}
|}
--] (]) 20:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
== Race and intelligence ==
==Rough Ideas for Military Notabilty standards==
The R&I article is being edited now. I did some reorganization of the sections. I think the focus for now is trying to improve what is there already. --] (]) 15:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Sounds ok. I assume there's some sort of Military project somewhere on Misplaced Pages, it might be an idea to see if they've had any discussions of a similar nature? Even if they haven't, I'm sure they would want to be involved. What are your opinions on ] and the like? It's somewhat puzzling that people become notable simply by being old.
:Don't get me wrong I wasn't say he's not notable or should be deleted, it's just that people can become notable for, well, doing not much. ] 22:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
== Image:387_Floor_Plan.jpg listed for deletion ==
==Journalism notability standards==
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} ] ] 14:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC) <!-- Template:Idw -->
== Image:470_Interior.jpg listed for deletion ==
Is being a journalist or editor of a newspaper inherently notable? I can't speak for American newspaper editors, but in the UK if you asked the public who the editor of their daily newspaper was the majority wouldn't be able to tell you. Columnists are generally more well known, unless the editor happens to be someone like ]. Thoughts? ] 22:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} ] ] 16:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC) <!-- Template:Idw -->
==MilitaryProject==
==Octavian history==
I saw you thanked ]. I cannot believe that he was suspended indefinitely by ], an admin who is abusing his powers and who has accused over 100 people of being a sock puppet. Octavian history spent an ungodly amount of time trying to improve wikipedia. Octavian history is a New York Times best selling author and I think he has decided to not waste his time with sick individuals like Gyrofrog who were harassing him every day. Meanwhile there are thousands of people who are vandalizing wiki every second and gyro decides to suspend a true scholar who cared about the preservation of wiki. I guess the world has turned upside-down. But I guess this is just a reflection of what Misplaced Pages really is. Unbelievable!--] (]) 07:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
== Image:C440_Head.jpg listed for deletion ==
]. ] 22:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} ] ] 19:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC) <!-- Template:Idw -->
== Hello From Fiji ==
== Navy... ==
"designed by geniuses to be run by idiots" fantastic! I've never heard that one before, that's a keeper... ] (]) 19:08, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Bula Mr Murray I am now beginning the process of verifing my written articles which have been marked for AFD the wikipedians have given me a couple of months to do this and for that I am grateful.
== Chart used in other discussion ==
the process will have me getting documents then getting the leading family of the District to approve by making a traditional presentation with the Yagona Plant and also insure the governing authorities (Fijian affairs Board and the Provincial Council) has no objections
then I have to scan the documents and ensure they have the official stamps etc as you can see a long process.
Hello! I just wanted to tell you that I really appreciate your flowchart-work. An example of where I've used one of your illustrations in a tangential discussion is ].
what I want to do is have a reference page where I can load all these documents as cross reference area for those wanting verification for my articles on Lomaloma Tikina (District):
Turaga Na Rasau, Keni Naulumatua, Keni Naulumatua II, Adi Mere Tuisalalo, Adi Mere Samisoni,
Lomaloma, Sawana, Tuvuca, Namalata, Turaga Na Ravunisa.
--] (]) 19:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I need advice or some direction on how I could do this, I am going to make an attempt but if I get it wrong then I may need some help and direction from you.
] or at least the underlying procedure it describes has lead to ] being blocked. ().
I would be grateful for assistance in this matter
I'm interested in what you will say and/or do, knowing this.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and look forward to hearing from you soon.
Obviously Ottava Rima is responsible for his/her own actions, but this person ''was'' apparently following your advice, or at least your recommended procedure.
Malo (Thank you)
Maikeli
Please contact me first in case you're considering anything ... really interesting. :-)
== Hornsby ==
--] (]) 06:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Are you related to Hornsby? Can you get a photo of him for the article? Where in California are you? I have added more info, its looks like the article just needed a little cleanup. You already did a fine job. Don't forget to back up your information elsewhere on the web. I also add biographies to findagrave.com in case they get deleted here. You can also add them directly to Google at base.google.com. My rule of thumb is to store biographies in at least three places on the web. I am up to 5 places now. --] 21:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
: Hello! Nice to hear from you.
== Brill AfD ==
: Note that chart 1 explicitly allows a user to edit first. Chart 1 does not justify reverting a person on the sole ground that they have made an edit, while chart 5b can be read to say that this is possible.
The 5 days are up, but it may take some delay for an admin to call the result due to the holidays. (I don't want to call it, having been a partisan in the debate.) I think we should wait. I suggest doing a content merge at that point, and a history merge later if the result survives; if you are an admin & want the practice, i'd be glad to help you thru that, but be warned it's an annoying effort to do it up to my stds, and i wouldn't mind just doing it when the time comes. <br>--]•] 01:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)<br>
: What I'm mostly trying to put across is that this documentation work does have actual consequences for people. Due to chart 5b being up, it will likely be difficult to correct this user's behavior, and they will likely be banned from the site.
==Evolutionary medicine==
I apologize for the delay in responding. It took me 26 minutes just to check and then add a "Speedy Keep" to the AfD, what would normally have taken me about a minute and a half. The emergency department is keeping Security busy tonight. :-) The AfD was nominated by a ] imposter. The established user who had edited the article is ], and the nomination was by ]. The imposter's only edits, other than recommending "Delete" on the ], have been an attempt to delete this article -- first by tagging it for speedy (obviously not a CSD) and then by AfD. ] | ] 02:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
: I'm interested to hear what you propose to do in this particular situation. Zooming from global helicopter view to local action, are there any actions you and I can take to try to get this user to become a productive wikipedian? Once we do, we might be able to take our experience back to the global level, and document our procedure for future reference.
== California question ==
: --] (]) 19:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I was driving down Route 5 from Sacremento to Los Angeles and spotted an unusual place just south of Patterson, California around exit 248. It was surrounded by a 15 foot tall fence, and had a building giving off steam in the back. It was on the west side of the highway. Do you know what it was?
: <small>''(as you can see, ultimately, I don't actually deal in theory ;-)''</small>
: I do believe Ottava Rima has some inkling about 3O and village pump, but nevertheless, they are heading for a ban. If you think that educating this user about these two items will convince them to change their behavior, I will request for the talk page to be unprotected, and I will mail Ottava Rima that we will brief him/her, with the ultimate goal of getting the block lifted.
: However, I am not yet entirely convinced that this would be the practical solution. Wouldn't discussing actions like taking things to 3O and VP actually end up convincing Ottava Rima of the righteousness of their behavior (and thus actually accelerate them being banned?).
: Do you see any potential alternate approaches?
: --] (]) 20:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC) <small>''It may not be possible to convince Ottava Rima to sufficiently alter his/her behavior to prevent the ban entirely, though it might be possible to improve their behavior and thus their lot to some extent at least.''</small>
:: <scratches head> Don't take this the wrong way, and not to put ''too'' fine a point on it, but aren't you effectively saying that... You don't understand the ] enough to be able to comment, but you do audaciously presume to advise people on the ]?
==Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Marija Pavlović==
:: That can't be right, I must be reading you wrong. O:-) --] (]) 07:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I add to the article a bit, fixed some linguistic POV's, fixed the links, and will work on the redlinks therein in the next couple of days. Would you reconsider your vote to keep on the AfD page. ] 06:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
::: Interesting response. Apparently our views on both the genesis and purpose of policy differ somewhat. At any rate, I see this as an opportunity to explore and possibly set community standards (aka. policy), and am explicitly inviting you into the loop so that you don't feel shut out at a later date. If it is truly your wish to decline, then I'll sadly accept that. --] (]) 08:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
== Saga (Singer) ==
== Charles Murray ==
Thanks for your help in cleaning up and improving the article on ]! Even though I am part Jewish, I think it is important to not let an individual's political opinions get in the way of the quality of their article on wikipedia. The Saga article in particular has been under attack multiple times, but thanks to me and a few others, it has survived deletion. I will attempt to get a hold of Resistance Fall 2000 to sharpen her article further. --] 18:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Considering a "political pundit" would be a political expert, and he is indeed a researcher in political science, I don't think it was much of a change. However, I agree that his political leanings should be left out of the article.--] (]) 12:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
*(You replied on my discussion page) "You have done a great job in finding sources that were eluding others. It is great to see someone with objective journalistic dispassion, especially in light of the message, which must be concerning to you. --Kevin Murray 19:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)"
== mediating/moderating the discussion on race and intelligence ==
**I'm not bothered by it one bit... --] 19:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Would you mind commenting ? I think we could benefit from your insights and past experience. Thanks, ] | ] 18:41, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
***I'm concerned about any divisive trends which prolong polarization. --] 19:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
==Stono==
== Shockley ==
I think we should keep the last information you removed. I tried not to be wordy, but those words make the article precise. As it stands now it reads: The new elevated design allows traffic to move faster, while vessels pass under a 65 foot clearance and through 90 feet of horizontal clearance between the bridge supports. What type of traffic, foot traffic or vehicular traffic? Also, this: The ] opened two lanes to traffic in November 2003, and opened the remaining two lanes in June 2004. Which two lanes are we talking about? Again, are these lanes for boats to go through, or foot traffic to move through. You need to be more clear because non-locals such as myself would not know for sure what you are talking about. Let me know what you think. ] 19:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Ramdrake has been wiki-stalking me as recent edits proof, hence why I've been short when dealing with him. --] (]) 18:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
::I do give the reader credit. And less is more, usually, but not when you are writing to inform and are not clear. Lanes as used is vague. People use lanes, bikes use lanes, cars use lanes, and even boats use lanes. If you object to the use of vehicular because you think it is too formal, or whatever, come up with something else. But something needs to go there. Also, the same thing for traffic. Which traffic are we talking about? ] 19:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
==Image copyright problem with ]==
]
== Articles for deletion/Andrew Gower (2nd nomination) ==
'''Hi Kevin Murray!'''<br />
Sounds like you found some helpful information. I think he's probably notable <i>per se</i> simply for having been associated with the creation of Runescape, which is particularly notable in its own right. Also, my read on the ] guideline is that it is okay to consider press releases as accurate sources of information if there's no reason to disbelieve them...And for something that is a simple matter of factual accuracy (the name of your company's founders) I can't imagine we wouldn't regard that as reliable.
We thank you for uploading ], but there is a problem. Your image is currently missing information on its copyright status. Misplaced Pages takes ] very seriously. Unless you can help by adding a ], it may be ] by an ]. If you know this information, then we urge you to add a ''']''' to the ]. We apologize for this, but all images must confirm to policy on Misplaced Pages.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the ]. Thanks so much for your cooperation.<br /><small>This message is from a ].</small> --] (]) 17:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately the page on him reads a bit like a MySpace page and not an encyclopedia entry, but if you're willing to pitch in that's great. I think it is probably worth keeping the article on him.
: No problem, this is a PDF of an email demonstrating the release of a photo to GNU> Have done the same for the email PDF. --] (]) 23:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
] 22:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
==AfD Lionel Bryer==
I see reason triumphed with keeping LB, for a change.''']''' 07:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
== ] article name ==
==Google hits==
Most of the admins don't seem to consider Ghits to be a good indicator of notability. The main problem with it is that it suffers from substantial recentism--subjects that are in the news right now get a lot of news hits, but important events from the past might not get any. In general, if something gets very few google hits I try and avoid assuming that it is non-notable, but if it has a lot it is one of the factors that encourages me to dig deeper. The only real ironclad proof of notability (that most admins seem to care about) are written articles from independant, reliable sources.
] 17:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I see you've worked on this article recently. I'm a little confused by the precise naming, I haven't been able to find any references to "Cattle Health Initiative". I can find "Cattle Health Planning Initiative", "Cattle Initiative" and "Cattle Health Planning Project", but not the actual article title. Now this is admittedly a pretty obscure thing to be bringing up, but what do you think, should the article be renamed? Thanks! ] (]) 20:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
== ] ==
: I agree. It is not appropriate to cahnge names during and AfD, otherwise I ould have wanted to somehow make it clear and that it is a UK government program. I'd like to know a bit more about the scope of the program and perhaps look at broadening the topic. Cheers! --] (]) 23:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
::Well, the AfD has been withdrawn, largely due to your commendable efforts, it would seem a rename can go ahead. Picking the new name is still a conundrum. Based on , "Farm Health Planning Cattle Initiative" might be the official name, I haven't found an actual press release. Mentioning the country is a good idea, but there again, it is a UK government plan but the program seemingly only applies to England, as farm health is apparently devolved to the other Parliaments. No easy answers here. Cheers! ] (]) 18:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
==]==
Hi Kevin, I've removed {{user|Electricmeat9999}} from ]. I'd encourage you to read the instructions found at the top of that page. In particular, editors must be warned in accordance with the type of edits they've made before a block is requested. Also, since blocks are meant to be preventative rather than punitive, generally we refrain from blocking a user if they appear to have stopped vandalizing. That page should clear up what the proper process is but if you have any questions at all, feel free to ask me either here or on my talk page. Thanks! —] <font color="#C46100" size="1">]</font> 00:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the 3O about ]. I am curious, though, about some of the facts in the article vs the facts in the reference source, plus the fact that the reference source is a blog entry and concerns a living person, which I am under the impression is a violation of ]. I have in good faith and effort tried to find better reference sources and just really can't turn that much up. Not trying to pick a fight; I'd just like a little clarification for future use. Cheers. ] (]) 23:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
: All righty, understood. Thanks. —] <font color="#C46100" size="1">]</font> 00:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks; this is going much smoother, and I'm much calmer about it. ] (]) 02:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
== Your comments at my meta page ==
== Diana Lucas ==
Thanks for them, and you were correct that that was a typo. Unfortunately, in addition to being a careless typist I'm apparently also a careless reader - while I thought that statements were to be a maximum of 1200 words, it turns out that they're supposed to be a maximum of 1200 ''characters'', which means I've had to take the whole thing down pending some serious editing. Thanks again! ] (]) 18:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no set number that I know of, but it does reinforce the idea that she is non-noteable and not worthy of mention on Misplaced Pages. ] 00:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
== ] ==
== Hello again Kevin ==
"routine marking of obsolete proposals as rejected - feel free to revert"
well my articles have been deleted except on the villages, anyway so be it, my only interest was to write about Lomaloma Tikina, Turaga Na Rasau and history of the title holders etc, am I to close to the topic to be unbiased??
:And what gives you the idea that this proposal is obsolete (or rejected as the notice says)? Do you customarily go around marking proposals with 100% support as rejected without so much as saying hi on the talk page?? ] (]) 22:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, I do routinely mark these obsolete pages as rejected. Rejected is a harsh term but it is the tag we use for proposals which have not been accepted. Please read the policy page on proposals. I typically prune old proposals each month or the list of proposals becomes clogged and worthless. If your proposal has died out you might want to advertise it at the Village pump or at related project pages. Good luck! --] (]) 22:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:::What gives you the idea that the proposal has "not been accepted" or is "obsolete"? Please explain. Per previous discussion on the proposal talk page and the fact that the conventions given in the proposal are merely descriptions of already well-established and non-controversial conventions which might not be obvious to new editors (and considering ]), I have changed the page to an official guideline. ] (]) 23:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
::::] is an essay. I've asked for feedback at the Burma project. I've no objection to your proposal, but I do have an objection to your actions and sensitivities around this, so I will now become more involved. --] (]) 23:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::I know that ] is an essay. I've only been an administrator on Misplaced Pages for 3 YEARS! Jeezy Creezy! And for your information, I have advertised it at related project pages, in case you didn't notice. There's no point advertising this on the Village Pump since only about 5 active editors on Misplaced Pages know anything about the Burmese language (and thus would be qualified to have an opinion about it). And also, this is not a Misplaced Pages "policy", it's a list of helpful guidelines. It describes already established conventions and provides valuable information to new editors who might be interested in editing articles related to Burmese topics. It's not about me trying to dictate rules to the rest of Misplaced Pages. Have some faith! ] (]) 23:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
::::::Well, having faith works both ways, and your status as an Admin holds no weight in this discussion. You could have just reverted the routine tagging and be done with it, but now you've made it an unpleasant issue. Just show a bit of support for tagging it as a guideline and be happy. Cheers! --] (]) 23:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::My being an admin holds no weight in this discussion except that it should be a decent indication that I have rudimentary familiarity with guidelines, policies, and essays. Sorry to have made this an unpleasant issue, but I consider tagging things without discussion as rather unhelpful behavior. Also, I do not believe that guideline proposals are subject to any specific deadline for approval. If you believe that proposals need to be approved within a certain amount of time or marked as rejected, you should propose that as a policy. Enforcing your own arbitrary time limits, however, seems a bit unilateral. ] (]) 23:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
:::::::: Per the policy page: ''"A rejected page is any proposal for which consensus for acceptance has not developed after a '''reasonable time period'''.'' While our policies remain ambiguous it is left to us to determine what is reasonable. No consensus for acceptance was generated and there has not been discussion for some time; the page was tagged with the edit summary, ''"routine marking of obsolete proposals as rejected - feel free to revert."'' This is really much ado about nothing. I expect more from an Admin. --] (]) 23:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
==Thanks==
you've read my user talk page do you think if I re write the article with my list of sources and references of which I have alot will it be challenged again as it may seem I am just blowing my own trumpet???
Thanks for the note. There's really nothing to be done. No ill will. No problems with Misplaced Pages. Just...ready to stop. Thanks again.--] <sup>]]</sup> 18:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
== Technical 3RR vio? ==
anyway deeply discouraged but I accept the verdict
I think we're all editing in good faith there, did you really do 3 actual reverts? If it's just slightly different edits, that's not 3RR, that's actually fine. If you're trying to work something out something complicated with Rhanyeia and I'm actually in the way, I'll take a step back 'till you're done.
Maikeli
] 04:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
--] (]) 21:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC) <small>''not enough go-juice in system :-P''</small>
== Bernardine Dohrn - NPOV ==
:: No per my interpretaion I did not exceed the 3RR rule, but i would if I went further. She and I worked together in collaboration this morning but I edited her then you then you. Please see my message at the talk page. I'm off to crack open that IPA in your honor. I think that we've done some great work together today. --] (]) 21:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
::: I somehow suspect you just wanted an excuse to go crack open that IPA O:-) Cheers, have a great day! --] (]) 21:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I made several edits to the article, and made a few minor corrections and posted some comments on the talk page. This article is very troublesome as it involves a living person and contains controversial material that is unsourced. Also, to much weight is given to her activities with Whether Underground and not enough attention given to what she has done. If this is a biographical article it should attempt to act as a biography and not an op-ed of the subject. I therefore would urge you to be aggressive in your editing of this article. If there is any information of a controversial nature that is not sourced or reliably sourced you should remove it or edit it. Also, more attention probably should be given to her early childhood and career and what she has done and is doing including some mention of her activities during the 1960's and 1970's but as it now stands far to much attention is given to a 20 year period of her life when she is now in her mid 60's. That about 90% of the article is dedicated to about a third of her life isn't biographical at all. It's someone trying to highlight something they want to draw attention too and it's not acceptable on Misplaced Pages. Also, if nothing can be done to make this article more NPOV you should seriously consider requesting that it be deleted. I hope this helps you in this article. ] 02:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Sure, please list me. ] (]) 21:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
: I think were done! ] (]) 18:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
== BernardineDohrn ==
== RE: On Break? ==
Hi Kevin,
There isn't much information available on Bernardine Dohrn online therefore it would be quite difficult to rely only on online sources and create a good article. Most of what is published online about a person tends to be there for a reason either negative or positive. Most of the articles and other information on her tend to focus on her involvement in the Weatherman. You shouldn't worry about relying on what is available online as that is the most easily accessible source of information. There are numerous offline books and articles about Bernardine Dohrn that may be useful if you have access to them. Speaking to a Librarian at your local library about how you can get more information about Bernardine would be very useful as they are trained and have the resources to search out information in books and can obtain them for you through Inter-Library loans. ] 20:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I do take a few breaks from Misplaced Pages, as you can see...I am an administrator on another large wiki, and that takes up a good amount of my time, as well as real life work. I apologize for not answering faster. As for User:Gjenvick, I understand that I may have removed some of his or her links as I believed they didn't go by the ] guidelines. If you would still like to speak to me regarding this issue, please do.
I unforunately don't have time to work on this article either. I made some minor changes to the article to help it become more consistent with Misplaced Pages policy as you requested that I do before Christmas but was unable to do so until now because of the holiday. As I know very little about this subject I am not prepared to do any credible research. My only suggestion to you would be to reference the information as that would make it more NPOV than it would be otherwise. I understand that you are only involved in this article to see that it conforms to Misplaced Pages policy. This is my only interest in this subject as well. I will attempt to find source for the information in the article online as I have time and to insert some references. I will try to work on this article as I am able but I have several articles that I have to finish that are time sensitive. Thanks. ] 23:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, ] (]) 23:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
== AfD ==
==William Gaillard==
*There's no offense taken here; however, you should be aware that replying to every contrary vote in the discussion is usually counterproductive and hurts your case. If the delete goes through, there is always ] where you can make a statement. Regards, ] 23:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I didn't answer when I read the message first off. I am more than happy for you to act in any capacity in relation to the article.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 16:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
== Hi ==
== ] ==
FYI Your work here was good, I think it got it all going well. Maybe the section on editing could go back in, I guess it depends what happens with the flowchart. Cheers! --] (]) 01:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
== yeah but ==
Making such comments about me without asking me for more information was an extremely poor decision on your part. ] is almost certainly a new sock of a banned user who has been waging a war on ] and related articles for at least six months, and this article appears to be part of the same. I've been taking an extremely conservative tack, rather than taking the easy route and blocking him. However, the user appears to have revealed himself at the bottom of the AfD. In the future, ask first if you don't understand something like my comments on the AfD. | ] <small>]</small> 21:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
::* I think that the author's behavior in other respects does not bear on the notability or verifiability of the article, which I believe is the subject being discussed at AfD. If you think that he should be blocked or otherwise punished, then do it.
but i have like over 500 edits, man! And i'm talking about edits by hand, no bots baby! ] (]) 02:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure that you intentions were good, but I see too many abuses at AfD to debate each in private. Sorry.
:What do you mean, "troubled"? And I think I can be admin in about 1,000 more edits. I love sluts and hot young women but don't think Misplaced Pages is myspace either. ] (]) 02:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Kevin
==Dave Zirin 3O==
--Kevin Murray 21:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Dave has wrote several articles defending bonds against accusations of steroids and repeatedly refuses to give a yes or no answer to a simple question: DO you think barry bonds has done steroids? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== re: Harlem Heights ==
:If the article is just a POV fork, then it's all relevant, and the article would merit deletion. That was the entire point. If you're not happy with what you see at AfD, attacking nominators is not the answer. | ] <small>]</small> 21:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
::Darcy, there is a big difference between criticizing the form of a nomination and attacking a nominator. I have done the former and not the latter at CC Poindexter. --] 21:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Kevin. I'm familiar with MEDCAB although I've never submitted a formal request. On the rare occasion that I am in disagreement over an article, my usual plan is 3O and then MEDCAB, however nothing has ever gone that far. In this case, my first recourse was 3O, seeing as the current dispute is between myself a Trip Johnson and I was not party to the earlier confrontations. However, the user does seem to be in a number of disagreements with a number of editors across a number of articles–how would you suggest we proceed? Thanks. ] (]) 01:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
== ] ==
== Dennis Dechaine ==
Kevin,
The ostensible Misplaced Pages policy rationale for censoring the name of Sarah Cherry (which has been on the article since inception and was not put there by me) is that the name "was not widely disseminated". I addded a half dozen sources to the article, including the NY Times, Village Voice and a best selling book. I think it is safe to say this qualifies as "widepread dissemination". ] (]) 02:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
== Awards as evidence of notability (fiction) ==
Thanks for all your help with ]. It would really help me and other fellow editors if you could fill in meaningful ] and use ].
I would be grateful if you would make your viewpoint known at ], as I believe your earlier points could result in the guideline being changed.--] (]) 14:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! -- ] 05:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
== What are you trying to achieve at ] ? ==
== ] ==
I thought we were past the point where people could hold the page hostage. :-/ --] (]) 22:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I see you noticed my changes to ], and basically reverted two of the ones I commented as 'Removed some instances of "My " to make it more third-person, consistent with "Kevin Murray lives". I suggest adding "His" instead, if (presumably he) wants to reveal his gender.' at . My problem with that is that now the first sentence is in the third person, and the second and third sentences are in the first person. IMHO, a single point of view can only help a non-encyclopedic article like your user page. -- ] 06:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
== Drug policy of Sweden ==
Yes, I first looked in and offered a third opinion, but have decided to stick around and help improve the page as an editor. Neither of the other editors is a native English speaker, so if nothing else, at least I can help there. Since my participation makes this a three editor disagreement, mediation is the appropriate way to go. I do appreciate your input. When I stepped in, the two editors had become pretty polarized so there was not a lot of trust. I personally thought the latest call for a third opinion spoke more to the editor's frustration with his inability to push his POV than to any inability of the editors to eventually reach a compromise. ] ] 10:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
== Thanks ... ==
... and thanks! Hope you have been well too. What are the policy issues you have in mind? Many months ago I was heavily involved in an argument at NOR - I feel like I said my peace there, even worked on some compromise positions which were accepted - only later to be deleted - and frankly feel burned out there. And a few weeks ago I think I was involved in a lengthy discussion at V which ultimately went nowhere. I am not sure I have anything more constructive to add, but keep me posted! ] | ] 10:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
==Thanks==
Thanks for noticing my somewhat-upcoming graduation. After changing majors a couple times, it's about time I finished up. I do want to go into business for myself after graduation, but I don't have any capital, so I guess I'll be looking for venture capitalists and angel investors. Wish me luck. ] (]) 17:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
== Thanks! ==
Thanks so much for your support in ], which closed '''successfully''' this morning. <sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
==]==
Hi Kevin, am happy to go with your revert but let me give you some background.
This page has been a PR speel for a number of months.
I've spent some time re-writing it so it is accurate.
Isis Gee has been publicly proven to use sockpuppets on youtube to remove negative comments.
The other user is simply removing negative comments on the article and has added nothing new.
I am also a little upset as she is misrepresenting the polish article by translating them incorrectly on the talk page.
It is getting very frustrating.
] (]) 20:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
== Daniel Terdiman ==
Hi Kevin,
Hi Kevin,
Thanks.
principally I have no qualms with changing my vote if new evidence is presented to show that someone is confirmed to satisfy WP:BIO or WP:PROF by independent means, and I normally would have no problem with Terdiman if if was not that the references are a little thin and, even if he passes this AfD, in a month or two he will be back on the list. Show some more reference (even if not as link but to literature or non-trivial magazines) and I am sure it will pass this AfD and won't be nominated again.
Take care
Alf
16:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)~
Is there any way you can full-protect the page for a couple of days. I am a new user so if you semi-protect I can't edit and the sockpuppets will run wild.
==Poindexter==
] (]) 20:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
: Hi Kevin, could you look at the talk page again. I'm just concerned about the sources overall. Also, the same BBC commentary is being used at ] and I would like your opinion on that as well. -- ] (]) 10:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you're asking for - do you want the text of the deleted article? | ] <small>]</small> 21:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
== Charles C. Poindexter ==
== User:Eurovisionman ==
Kevin,
Isn't Poindexter known for something besides starting the fraternity? I tried looking it up on the web, but couldn't find anything. But I know I have come across his name in relation to something, with a side note about the fraternity that struck me as totally outside the realm of what I was reading, and pointless. So, if you post an article about him, try to see if you can find off-line resources that are more informative. If I come across it again, I will let you know. ] 00:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I was very happy to see you intervene in the Isis Gee debacle, but I fear you might be manipulated by this use. Please note that this user is using legitimate-looking arguments to push his version of the article, which is quite clearly OR and POV. He is simply reverting any change to the article, referring to the editors as "sockpuppets" (do I need to prove to you that I am not? dunno who to anonymous editor is though, maybe this is an actual sockpuppet, though I doubt it), referring to "consensus" that did not take place, misuing references to substantiate his edits (i.e. he quotes a "reference" which has little to do with what he has written), and another user has questioned the validity of the BBC player reference (can't access the clip myself, I am not in the UK which is apprently required). On top of that, the user attempted to wipe clear his talk page after I placed a lenghty reply there.
:Ah, you brave man. But I do believe that good articles, particularly minor biographies can be written by editors who know nothing of the subject--sometimes expertise can make encyclopedia articles on people less neutral than they should be (the big books Britannica, etc.). He's notable for the fraternity alone, but if I come up with anything else, it's all yours. ] 00:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I know a barely notable Eurovision Song Contest entrant might not be of utmost interest to you, but if you could take a look at the involved articles' and talk pages' histories, you could perhaps get a broader view of the issue.
:Kevin, this user seems to be a veteran vandal to me. He clearly DOES know about our policies, he has been quoting their names from the very beginning but in a malevolent way. Since the article is of current interest, I'd see a block on it very appropriate - there are many parties interested in defamation of selected artists for various reasons just before the final. ] (]) 21:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
::For sure, but I'd hate the article to contain pretty obvious attempt at defamation of a living person just because we hope for a good dispute. Please take a look at the discussions on the article's and user's talk page - I have explained why I find the edits inappropriate. I strongly believe the original version is a better one to start a debate from. ] (]) 21:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
] 16:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Kevin 1) I have done plenty of talking, Eurovisionman not that much, but a lot of editing, and I don't think there is anything he hasn't said yet 2) the only parties involved are myself, him and you - I clearly cannot agree with Eurovisionman, as he insist on his version beyond any discussion, and there is only you left. So, if you please, do decide. ] (]) 21:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Awesome! I knew there was something Kevin. If you have any questions about this article, let me know, and I can either answer them or find someone who can. ] 03:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
::::IP user seems to be blocked now, and per his modus operandi I'd actually suspect him of being Eurovisionman's sockpuppet if anything, used to purport his sockpuppet theory. ] (]) 21:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I feel that CC Poindexter should be included in the Alpha phi alpha article. your opinion? ] 13:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::I sure will - need to get something to eat ;) In the meantime, you could also checkuser Eurovisionman just in case ;) ] (]) 21:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I was just wondering.. why your message on the Alpha Phi Alpha talk page was removed? It was said to be because you were a banned user?! Any truth to this? http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AAlpha_Phi_Alpha&diff=101940590&oldid=99173997 {{unsigned|172.165.156.7|04:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)}}
== ] ==
Hello - Regarding the new "references" section: There are no references to these items in the article. For instance, the "Sail Magazine: August 2004 pages 54 - 57" item. Also, the "Catalina Timeline" is really just a nice external link. I don't believe we need a "Notes" section that is contains inline references and a "Notes" section that contains items that could be distributed elsewhere... The inline refs should be under "References". ]<sup>]</sup> 22:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
:] wasn't specific enough. The banned user was and is ]. -- ] <span class="plainlinksneverexpand">(]|]|]||])</span> 11:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:I do tons of work with referencing. I typically don't include items that aren't easily verifiable. So the inclusion of "Sail Magazine: August 2004 pages 54 - 57" as a bibliography item makes little sense especially since nothing points to it in the article. It hangs out there alone. The article really doesn't need a bibliography section. It looks like you've worked on the article for coming up on two years. Why now? I just think the items we have could be covered more simply as they stood. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
::You are the ]. Your style prevails. My POV here is that the article reference has little value as it's not easily verifiable. I am finding new references that ''are''. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
:::No longer working on the article. I don't see a reason to have both inline refs and "general" refs (the kind that aren't easily verifiable). Good luck & no need to respond ]<sup>]</sup> 05:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
==Cobal Case==
Could you please keep an eye on this discussion for a bit longer: ], I have been unblocked. ] (]) 21:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
==Drug policy of Sweden==
Taking on goodfaith i'll say that it isn't, but there has been no attempts to place the comments by the non banned user back into the talk section. Maybe a note to CCson and a reinsertion of the comment would remedy the situation. ] 18:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I thank you for showing interest in the article Drug Policy of Sweden and your work as 3-O. If I interpreted user Steinberger correct, he now accepts that the issues identified as important in the National Action Plan of 2006 are relevant to the article Drug policy of Sweden which reasonably also means that one can write on relevant statistics for these areas. I have added an additional source to the page that I absolutely should have included earlier. ] (]) 09:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
== Daniel Terdiman ==
== Your dispute ==
I think it looks fine now, a lot of references - that's good. ] 03:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Kevin I heard about this in LBC radio today. It was actually quite funny but sad. Some user has put wording in the entry to make it appear that Isis Gee came 2nd last when she came last and had a very bad performance. I have added my views of the entry and hope you can comment. ] (]) 21:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
==]==
It needs to be properly referenced in the text. The easiest way is to go to the history, select a preceding version, open the edit box and copy the coding (obviously not then saving that earlier version of the article). At the moment it disadvantages it because no one can tell what references what. Otherwise, please revert to preceding version and leave the new one on the talk page. Thanks. ] 04:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks for your collegiate approach and your reformulation, which I read through before doing yet another myself, using the LA Weekly, which has made a huge difference. Your idea of shifting the emphasis onto the Monroe issue was definitely the way forward. ] 12:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks again for the human touch. It's certainly an interesting progress, and it's only the pressure that's forced the article through changes. But you're right about the work! ] 16:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
== ]'s RfA ==
== Re: Daniel Terdiman ==
Hey Kevin-- I saw what you said in FMF's talk page & in his RfA, & I wanted to commend you on your well reasoned arguments. It is good to see good folks kicking around. --] (]) 19:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I see. While practical, I think it is a bit "odd" that the user needs to click the reference to go to the bottom of the page, and then click in the wikilink to go upwards to the section. While visually "appealing", it is of no use for casual readers, as they need to do two clicks to get the same information they would get by just scrolling down the page. Anyways, if that was the proposed solution, I would not object, at least not for now. -- ] 17:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Kevin. It looks like you're busy or away. When you get a moment, could you please ]? There are a few loose ends to tie up, as it seems. Thanks! —] (]) 16:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
== ] ==
Nice work on saving the article! --] 00:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
:Gotcha...although lack of understanding typical headings within[REDACTED] and purpose of said headings is a sad commentary on the AfD reviewers. If any of those links you gave backs any statements in the article...please put that info into "note" format to strengthen your efforts. --] 00:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks like the opposition got what they wanted, and when their abusive behavior shows up in the future, they will be reported. I'm done with them (] (]) 15:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC))
Hi Kevin, I've commented in the AfD regarding the article in it's current state - see ] for my commentry. I'm happy to revisit this but he still seems to be just another producer of short films who's received some funding to kick his career off but has attracted no media interest beyond noting the release of the short films. ] ] 01:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
==Section moved to ] - discussion Murray & Levy==
== Adam Bayliss ==
==Your note==
Greetings! You left a note on my talk page about this article, but I don't see myself in the edit history and I don't recall ever editing it. Good luck with the AfD. Cheers, ] <small><font color="green">]</font></small> 23:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
A lot of work went into that text, Kevin, with lots of people participating over many months. It was accepted as policy, and was working extremely well, when Jimbo arrived to say he didn't like that ] was directed to it. We therefore had to have a WP-wide poll, which is a kind of silly thing to do because very few people knew the background or understood the issues, and Jimbo having said something negative about it meant we had an uphill struggle on our hands. Despite that, we got a majority in favour, but not enough to gain consensus. Therefore, the thing has become political, rather than only to do with policy, which is a great pity, but I think it means it was a lost opportunity -- lost for the foreseeable future. For that reason alone, I think the text needs to just be left as the summary it was. But if the effort to establish it as policy is to be revived, we need to respect the amount of work that went into it before, and also contact the people who wrote it to get their input before changing things wholesale. Alternatively, you could start an entirely fresh proposal. ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 17:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
:Ah - just re-read your comment (now that I'm awake). I did edit the film festival article, but only to stub-sort it. Again, good luck. ] <small><font color="green">]</font></small> 05:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I suggest you get in touch with Adam Bayliss, say what you're doing and ask him for copies of some reviews, as he will have press cuttings. ] 23:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:We can't really tag it as failed, because it's an accurate summary of two valid policies. Jimbo's suggestion was that we regard V and NOR as policy, and ATT as a "canonical summary" of them, useful for people who want to see on one page what the policies say. So it's not failed, it's not a proposal, and it's not an essay. That's why we created a unique tag for it. ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 17:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
==AfD Nomination: ]==
An editor has nominated the article ] for deletion, under the ] process. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe it satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the nomination (also see ] and ]). Your opinions on why the topic of the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome: participate in the discussion by editing ]. Add four tildes like this ˜˜˜˜ to sign your comments. You can also edit the article ] during the discussion, but do not remove the "Articles for Deletion" template (the box at the top of the article), this will not end the deletion debate. ] 17:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::ATT had nothing to do with N. It was developed because people (especially new editors) were often confused about the difference between ] and ], and were confused about the way "verifiability" was used, so we created one policy to replace those two. Essentially it is just those two policies on one page, plus using the idea of "attribution," instead of V. We also hoped to get rid of ] by having an ATT/FAQ page, so that editors would have a one-stop shop. It's still used as a very useful summary, so I really see no reason to mess around with it — unless you're thinking of reviving it, but I'm not sure I'd advise that. ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 19:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
==disney wikia==
HI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am hoping that you will join the few of us at the disney wikia.
We dont have alot of people there, so who ever we can get would be welcome. Want to know how small that thing is? I just now created a Jafar page. JUST NOW. and I became a member about a week ago. So umm....yeah, come help? thanks. My user name is the same as it is here. =]--] 00:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:Please read ]. Also, what gave you the idea that ] would be interested in a disney wikia? -- ] <span class="plainlinksneverexpand">(]|]|]||])</span> 11:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Thanks, Kevin, for your comment about privacy. As for the policies, I do agree they should be clearer, but it's very difficult to gain consensus for any change, except for tweaks here or there. ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 21:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
==]==
== Graphs ==
Thanks for your edits to this page. Someone just tried to nominate it for deletion again... what to you think of this? I lean more toward tring to revise what is there rather than delete it. The wiki should have an article on this topic-- though, the present verson is quite racist and one sided. I hope you'll be a part of trying to fix it. ] 20:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
What software did you use to generate those two graphs at WP:VP (Policy) today? I want to use it to make a more fair version of the original graph I complained about. Thanks - ] (]) 03:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
== Re:Race & Intellegence ==
== ATT history ==
That format is certainly more acceptable than the previous one. If the referencing issues can be overcome, than I would have no problem with its inclusion. It will definitely need some very solid references though; with controversial topics like this people will tear any poorly referenced section of an article apart. These articles are already in poor enough shape as it is. (By the way, I'd recommend putting the improved chart into your user space. The admin closing the AfD for IQ by Ancestry could very easily end up deleting it instead of making it a redirect.)--] ] 06:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
What do you find incorrect or needing rebutal? I am always willing to retract something I said, if I am in error... but at this point, I don't see that I am. I am tired of both sides in this debate mistating the facts about what occured in the past... so I thought it would be helpful to state what did happen. ] (]) 22:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't really have a problem with your note (I did make a slight alteration though to make sure that its clear that you're not proposing keeping it in its current article after modifying it), although I'm not sure how much of a response you'll get. I've noticed that after a couple days AfD discussions tend to die down, and this one was so very one sided that I wouldn't bet that many of the people who voted are checking it for recent developments. So unless people demonstrate a significant problem with the format of your example, I'd recommend just going ahead with it. The major people had with it was the sourcing and format, and if those are fixed I can't imagine anyone having a problem with its inclusion in the main article. Keeping it in the current article though is almost certainly out of the question.--] ] 07:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:Kevin... I need a reason beyond "because I asked you to." If there is seriously a problem with my history of ATT, tell me what it is. WHY do you want me to remove it? ] (]) 22:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
::Don't worry... I don't think you are trolling my talk page. Actually I think we are in very close agreement on goal... and are just disagreeing on how to get there. I posted the history because of a flurry of posts saying 'but we decided this a year ago'... I felt it was needed to explain that this was ''not'' decided "back then"... so we have to do so NOW. We need to determine the ''current'' consensus. In any case... I read your comment and it sums up what I said quite well. ] (]) 23:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
== Red House Yacht Club ==
== AFM ==
You wrote:
That's way out of line for you to be nominating an article for deletion and then deleting references and text based on your subjective interpretations of the WP Guidelines. I have reverted your deletion. You may be right about the quality of the references, but this should be discussed. I'm sure that you are working with the best of intent, but as the nominator I see implied bias toward the article. --] 18:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
:Not at all out of line. I cleaned up a terrible article (which you should have done if you want it kept} and deleted trivial references that failed ]. ] 22:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
::I have just seen you edit summary where you accuse me of being biased. Please carefully read ]. ] 22:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
:::* I said: ''"reverted edits by potentially biased editor"''. Any nominator of an AfD who deletes 2 out of 3 references of the article and about half of the text without discussing it, during an AfD debate seems "potentially biased" at minimum. --] 23:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::I agree with Kevin here that 'Any nominator of an AfD who deletes 2 out of 3 references of the article and about half of the text without discussing it, during an AfD debate seems "potentially biased" at minimum.' FTR, the edit summary is , the article is ], and the official discussion is at ]. — ] <span class="plainlinksneverexpand">(]|])</span> 03:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
These seem at odds with ], which I believe had consensus. The others all had pointers on their talk to that talk page.
== Notations for Lloyd Shepherd article ==
Your edits:
2008-06-12T21:11:05 (hist) (diff) Annum (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:10:19 (hist) (diff) Byr (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:09:56 (hist) (diff) Bya (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:09:29 (hist) (diff) Mya (unit) (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:08:48 (hist) (diff) Kyr (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:08:27 (hist) (diff) Tya (no consensus to merge) (top)
What is it you think was missing? ] (]) 04:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
* I was just clearing out the backlog of merge tags. These tags were old and I missed the discussion which was not labled specifically as a "merge" discussion, a limitation to a bulk process. If you feel that the mergers should happen just do it. There was plenty of time for discussion and objecion. Be bold and good luck. --] (]) 14:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
:* Thanks, I figured as much. I must admit I've been somewhat intimidated about the mechanics of doing a multi-merge with such wide reach. I'd kind of hoped someone from a project would step in. Wishful thinking I suppose. ] (]) 02:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
== Self-reference ==
Hi Kevin
], specifically the section saying articles should not refer to Misplaced Pages itself. --] | ] 17:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the note. To be honest, I can completely understand why it's thought my article should be updated, but if you think it's worth saving, here's some notations.
== WP:FICT ==
I was named as one of the most influential people in UK online journalism by the UK Press Gazette in 2006 (ahead of James Murdoch, no less), but the link now seems to be dead.
I've done a weird kind of undo of your {{tl|rejected}} tag, if only for pedantism. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 00:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
The story of my return to Yahoo! is told here: http://www.journalism.co.uk/news/recruit046.shtml
:I'm not sure how non-partisan the tagging of rejected is, especially as you voted that way. I don't think you should've unilaterally closed the debate (which, at 22-24, was nowhere near snowball territory) - that's why I undid you. Please don't do it again. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 01:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
::Stop forum shopping too. You will get blocked. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 01:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
:::ANI thread . ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 02:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
== WP:FICT rejected? ==
Kevin, your announcement that ] is rejected is an exageration of the current situation. I hope you an not annoyed that I have reverted your edit at ]. --] (]) 16:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
:I have also reverted your watering down of ] on the grounds that ] already stipulates that "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it".--] (]) 16:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
==]==
You can find a complete index of my articles for the Guardian and Guardian Unlimited
Hi, Kevin, could you see my comment at ], please? Thanks. <span style="font-family:jokerman;">]<sub>'']''</sub></span> 23:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
== Thanks ! ==
So if this is not enough, so be it. The very last thing I want to do is spam Misplaced Pages, so if this doesn't meet accepted standards, I completely accept that.
Kevin,
Thanks for paying attention to this, and keep up the great work. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) 12:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
Yes, I think we're done. 842U and some of the other folks have found a common cooperation, rather than finding, ground, in performing a large-scale merge that's been long overdue, so I guess it's now alrite!
== Promotional biographies ==
While wholeheartedly recommending to close the case, I would also like to express my personal gratitude for your patience and bearing with us over its course, and conducting it with a perfect mixture of impartiality and common sense.
Hello. I wish you would stop protecting and encouraging promotional biographies such as ], ], ], etc; it dilutes the quality of writing found here, and it makes it more tempting for self-promoters, PR flacks, and agenda-pushers to use Misplaced Pages to further their causes. ] 05:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Also huge thanks for getting involved in the Isis Gee debacle as a by-product. You are definitely one of the most valuable and reliable contributors to the community. I feel indeed thankful for having the opportunity to interact with you.
:Response at ] {{unsigned2|06:45, 30 January 2007|Kevin Murray}}
Kind regards,
:I haven't read the other two articles yet, but I strenuously object to your categorization of the ] biographical article as "promotional". — ] <span class="plainlinksneverexpand">(]|])</span> 13:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
] (])
== Merge ==
I don't think a vote is necessary at all (see ] for why it might be counterproductive). It's been discussed; if you want, you can just perform the merge, and people will come in after you and edit the details. Shouldn't be a problem. ] 12:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
*Yeah, I get that, but now we'll get a meta-debate on whether a vote is allowed on the issue, how its results should have been interpreted, and other bureaucratic details. Might I suggest that if/when you're uncomfortable about such a big edit, you create the edit e.g. at ] (or ]) and then tell people, "hey, I've merged it and here are the results. Any comments or objections?" Of course it's your choice about what style of editing you prefer, but things may be easier to accomplish this way. ] 14:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
**Your text at the top of the merged page says the discussions were merged, but as of now they are not. Do you plan to bring over the discussion at ] or should we look for an admin to unmerge them? I did not see a consensus at ] that there should be a merge. Now I have no way to even see if mention was made there of the proposed merge. If you are an admin, please add a copy of the old ] guideline and its talk page as part of my userpage so I can refer to it in future discussions at the new merged guideline. Thanks. ] 22:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
***You posted on my talk page "Parties to the discussion at both pages were notified directly that the merger was close to happening, and the consensus was reached after several days past.." I had written extensively on the talk page and had edited the project page, and I received absolutely no communication from you about the proposed merge. I have copied the discussion to my own offline storage, but I want a copy of the deleted guidelines. The discussion should be brought over to this page if you want it to replace the old page. Are you an admin who can furnish it? You said on the WP:ORG talk page "the vote is now open." I had my head bit off when I suggested a straw poll on another proposed guideline. Votes are not binding, and things are only done by "consensus" whattever that constitutes. I have compared the process to the caucus race in Alice in Wonderland ] to describe how WP:PORNBIO and even WP:N staggered toward becoming guidelines: "they began running when they liked, and left off when they liked, so that it was not easy to know when the race was over. However, when they had been running half an hour or so, and were quite dry again, the Dodo suddenly called out The race is over! and they all crowded round it, panting, and asking, But who has won? Thanks. ] 22:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the copy of the old guideline. The issue I was involved with was whether a campus paper, (at a school where it has an independent editorial board and a good reputation journalistically, such as Columbia or Havrard) could help to support the notability of an organization (a theater group, a choral group, a band, a performing arts organization) on campus. I had argued that such a paper was not uniquely subject to sympathy or influence to get coverage for an on campus group. A non-campus paper in any town could be influenced to give favorable coverage to organizations supported by the publisher, by politicians, or by large advertisors. I was about to revert to the text proposed by Rossami which said:
== ] ==
"2. Independent student-run college newspapers may be a source for information on campus organizations but additional independent sources are needed to fulfill WP:N. 1
Note 1: "Independent" student-run newspapers are characterized by an independent editorial review board and a policy of editorial review of stories which are written by identified reporters similar to the practices and standards used by The Harvard Crimson or Columbia Daily Spectator. Papers without such standards do not meet Misplaced Pages's standards as reliable sources." Should I go ahead an add that to the new guideline, or is it unnecessary? What happens the next time a college organization's article omes up for deletion and there is disagreement about whether campus paper articles can count as part of the substantiation of notability, versus the other view that all the campus paper articles in the world contribute nothing toward notability. ] 22:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
AFAIC, this mediation exercise has run its course. —] (]) 03:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
The arbitrariness is what disturbs me. I really do not have any vested interest in campus papers or campus organizations, and have been out of college for decades. Would we exclude from notability determination about sports teams the newspapers and TV stations in theri home towns? Or would we exclude the New York Times if it were shown that several of their reporters were too cozy with the subjects of their articles? I just demanded objective proof that the better college papers were less reliable that papers in towns of comparable size to the college community. I know how biased such small town newspapers can be. ] 01:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
* Thanks. I've been happy to mediate this to a good conclusion, and appreciate all the cooperation from the participants. --] (]) 07:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
== OrganizationsWikiProject ==
== Sailing images ==
I mentioned our chat to my uncle, who had this to say:
Hi Kevin. I've not yet read into this merger thing you've been talking about with Companies & Organizations, but I think it definitely falls within the scope of the ]. I need a few good coordinators to help me, if you pardon the pun, ''organize'' the project. ] 18:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:Hey thanks for your in-depth reply. After reading through some of those pages you've talked about, I realized how superfluous a lot of those debates have become. Instead of focusing on the micro analyzation of policy, we should all be focusing on the meta-framework for all organizations on wikipedia. Which is exactly what I aim to foster over at the WikiProject mentioned above. I hope you'll find time to read through some of ], and consider join as a project coordinator. Best, ] 20:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::Do I consider corporations to be a subset of organizations? '''Yes.''' In my mind, they are by definition, a type of business organization. ''Yourself''? ] 21:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:::It's good to know that there is some consensus on that. Thanks, and look forward to working with you on the Project. ] 21:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Me: "Check out how similar the pics are."
==Notability Companies==
My uncle: "But he has no beer can. I can't imagine what similarity you see...The 380 he owns is a really nice boat. A bit bigger than ours. Emeryville yacht harbor is very similarly located to South Beach Harbor in SF: from one you can get to the other: just go across the bay bridge and turn left for a half mile. same directions from either place."
Hi Kevin,
Not sure how this helps us with our sailing coverage, but it just might. ;-) - ] (]) (]) 05:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I tend to agree there is little value in those criteria and they are redundant. My only interest was in tightening up the criterion, because it was regularly being referred to in AfDs when there was precious else notable about a company, and I didn't want to start the process of changing the guidelines wholesale.
==Happy Independence Day!==
] 11:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
As you are a ], I just wanted to wish you a happy ]! And if you are not an American, then have a happy day and a wonderful weekend anyway! :) Your friend and colleague, --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">Happy Independence Day! ]</span><sup>'']''</sup> 00:38, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
== The(Second)Original Barnstar ==
== RFC on WP:NOTE ==
Hey. I just wanted to thank you for being pretty reasonable about these notability discussions. If you might recall, we engaged in a lot of debate with people digging in on their own interpretations. Once this stagnated, people could finally see that no progress was being made, and then ] started. I think we had to hit "no consensus" first before the compromises started to happen. A lot of proposals for compromise have come forward since then. And all signs seem to point towards a ] that will solicit feedback about notability on a mass scale.
] put together a ]. We haven't decided how to proceed on it, but it does not include any of the proposals anyone worked on. I fear that restarting the discussion at a general level will just lead us back to "no consensus", and at a much slower bureaucratic pace. A number of people share that fear. As such, I've gained support for an alternative RFC proposal.
] includes every single proposal that was put forth. Take a look. It's still a work in progress, but the basic form is there. People generally think this proposal will be more productive because takes advantage of the fact that we collectively moved the discussion forward (by offering concrete proposals for compromise). But the same people also agree that this RFC page is less readable than Masem's because it just has too much information for the average disinterested wikipedian. My RFC page is almost twice as long as Masem's!
I'm not sure that we're even going to go with my RFC proposal. But if we do, I wanted to ask if you would consider withdrawing one of your proposals, particularly the one that essentially states "Reader interest can establish notability". (Admittedly, I may have butchered it by trying to sum it up.) I just don't think it will gain support, and I think it's going to be hard to objectify "reader interest". If you would withdraw this one proposal, it would shorten the RFC page and improve our organization and focus. (As an aside, your other proposal for "protected link-stub" would remain, no matter what.) You might be doing this process a big favor by withdrawing this one. But if you don't want to, I understand, and we'll wait to see what a consensus of other editors say.
I'd appreciate your comment at ]. Thanks in advance. ] (]) 01:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
== Reasonable time period ==
Hi Kevin. I see of yours tagged a proposal failed. What I don't see is how the "reasonable time" is arrived at. The topic seems to have been revived on ]. Your input would be useful.] (]) 18:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:(relocated) I routinely go through the list of proposals and tag some failed since they have been abandoned or if they seem to have failed based on the criteria at WP:Policies and guidelines. I don't have a strong opinion on your project and see no reason not to revert my tagging based on your good judgment. One thought is that it might be more properly worked into a manual of style, rather than a stand alone guideline. Have you advertised it at the Village pump for greater feedback? Good luck! --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
::Actually it's not remotely my project, but it seemed to be causing a fair fuss, so it got my curiosity piqued. I've long been bugged by the seeming lack of clarity around what constitutes ] (although there seems to be lots of info on what doesn't!) But what I was after was an idea of how long was reasonable. Is there some policy that speaks to it, or just a judgement call? ] (]) 19:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
::: Sadly, we don't have a specific criterion for what is reasonable, and without it we get unreasonable interpretations of what is reasonable. You might take a peak at ] where in my mind a reasonable period has long since expired, but the proposal lingers. Consensus is a farce. WP is confusion in the name of civility, but generally it all works out in the end with a combination of good sense, camaraderie, bold action and compromise. --] (]) 22:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
==WP:FICT==
*Also, at ] you added "So instead of having an edit war you just edit war. Interesting solution?". I also started a talk discussion on the topic at the same time. I don't mind you reverting, but I do think if you are willing to revert, you should also be willing to talk about it. ] (]) 19:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:*I was contributing to those discussions, and am not the only one who has reverted these changes. ] (]) 21:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Because discussion about it is still on-going. A single version of it failed. But frankly if you put WP:PROF or all sorts of other guidelines up for a !vote, I think you'd find that they too would suffer a similar fate. It can't be failed because the current version failed. And it can't be historical as nothing (yet) has taken its place and there isn't consensus that nothing is needed. An essay is possible, but I don't think inclusion "rules" are generally essays, so that doesn't make much sense either. So I think the best label for it is "proposed".
:::Perhaps we cheat and go with a non-standard tag that explains the history. "On or about date XXXX this guideline became contested and no consensus has evolved as to what it should be now. Discussion is ongoing at X, Y and Z." If that notion works for you then I'm pretty mellow about the wording. ] (]) 00:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Well, we seem to disagree on a number of issues. I think topic-specific guidelines are exactly what are needed. Different areas have different definitions of notability. In any case, perhaps we should post something at the WP:N discussion to figure out what exactly others think. thoughts? ] (]) 01:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Thanks! ] (]) 02:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
== Link in ] ==
I just wanted to better understand your reasons for adding back the link, and further my explaination of why I had removed it. If you can further explain your reasons - perhaps I overlooked something (it has certainly happened before, and will happen again to be sure) - I just want to more clearly see your interpretation of the value of the links.
For my reasons to have removed it ... when I look at the content, the only thing it contains that's not already documented at least as well in other links (either EL or ref) are the photo albums, and the advertising links and the community forum - the last two are never reasons for a link to remain, and the photos are more curiosities rather than anything to expand understanding of the article. Then when I looked at the editor who had added the link, they haven't made any content edits, their sole edits have been to post this external link to several articles; which is why I also posted about the link at ]. --- ] <small>(] • ])</small> - 22:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
== Suggest self-reversion ==
Hey KM, I laughed out loud at the recent proposal; (and definitely fully support the good anti-] work you are doing with notability), but I think adding it to the notability guide template borders on the disruptive. I suggest you self-revert before folks get too upset (and you lose some of the deep well of goodwill you have built up from your notability work). ] (]) 14:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
==]==
Please would you nominate this for deletion. ] ] 17:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
== Controversial Duplication of Article ==
Hi Kevin:
Please see duplicate McMahan (hedge fund mogul) article posted by controversial editor who is part of Wiki seduction project. Contacting you via original user name for this article which finally had some editorial resolution as you surely recall. Seems to be deliberately provoking and malicious by an editor who has been blocked previously and has had many articles nominated for deletion, controversy re: barnstars he awards himself, etc. Suggested course of action? There already is an article regarding this subject though I still would say it should have been deleted way back when. I still don't believe the original article fits the criteria for notability on Misplaced Pages. Type Five] (]) 14:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
== A change to your change ==
. If I made a mistake (and your edit was indeed what you intended), would you let me know? -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">] </span> ] 21:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
== Correct template ==
Hi Kevin. I use that template sometimes, but essentially I don't see a difference when all I see at the bottom of an article is a list of books with no indication where the article content came from. As far as I'm concerned if a book is given, but not cited using a page number, it is just an invitation for me to read it so I can figure out what the original author of the article meant. As it is I have enough reading to do, so I simply change the section References to Recommended reading in the hope that other editors may wish to contribute their time also--] (]) ♠<span style="color:#BB0000;">♥</span><span style="color:#BB0000;">♦</span>♣ 02:59, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
==]==
I don't see how wiping out my comments is in any way constructive. --] (]) 16:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
== Re: CREEP ==
That's sort of what this is, a project to take our existing policies and hack them down, counting on the experience of editors to know what is important enough to keep, what can be reworded, and what is redundant and can be removed. If that's not quite what you're aiming for, then I'm not certain what you're getting at. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 17:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
''P.S. - Archive your talk page!!''
== ] ==
knock knock... do you think it's time to delete ]? I think you could use {{tl|db-author}}... later! ] <sup>(]—])</sup> 16:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
==Flowcharts==
You do flowchart graphics? I saw the one on ]. Over at ] we seem to be breaking some new ground for various big projects, and for the latest round of ideas, a flowchart might by just the right thing. Could you drop me a note on my User talk if you're interested? ] (]) 09:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:On this, I'm beginning to discuss the specifics on a thread on my talk page called "DNB tool". I think this should give you an idea of what's required. (It is with Magnus Manske, who first wrote MediaWiki, so he may have some improvements to suggest!). ] (]) 08:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
:Also see ], to have a better idea why having a good flowchart drawn would (in time) be a big expository help. ] (]) 06:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
== Image:No_Gods_IMage.jpg listed for deletion ==
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} <!-- Template:Idw --> ] ] 02:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
== Neutral third-party opinion requested - minor edit war==
<s>Please comment on this subject: ]. I have posted this on ], but it has yet to be addressed. Disagreement is regarding a clearly biased, second-party, self-published source in the introduction. Further, the content cited from this source (which does not meet WP standards) is a biased interpretation of what the source itself states. It should clearly be removed, as I have done repeatedly, but is has been repeatedly restored. 3RR rules requires someone independent to comment. If you are impartial regarding the subject, your opinion on the source is appreciated.--] (]) 00:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)</s>Resolved - delete or archive at your leisure.--] (]) 02:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! --] (]) 15:36, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
== Image:Hull Drawings.jpg listed for deletion ==
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== Hoagie ==
Bill, It looks like your propposal to merge Hoagie to Sub did not receive enough support to demonstrate consensus after a week. You might try submitting an AfD with the recommendation of a merger as the outcome; however, with the amount of current references and those likely to be found with further research, I suspect that an AfD would not prevail. I watch this article for vandalism and POV on a regular basis; while trying to remain objective on the varied opinions, I try to keep the article on an encyclopedic track. That being said, this article is due for a major cleanup again.
I notice from your bio that you are in SF; I’m across the Bay in Walnut Creek. --] (]) 19:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
:: ] and right now it is 6 to 3 for MERGE!. ] (]) 19:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Kevin, please show ] while editing the ] article. Unilaterally shutting down my RFC after a week when they go for 30 days, and falsely claiming That I "''did not receive enough support''" when I was in fact AHEAD 6 to 3, and constantly removing the perfectly valid photo of a Hoagie from Subway, are NOT what I would call showing "Good Faith". Thanks! ] (]) 23:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
*Billy, I admit that I missed the count on the RfC as it was strangely formatted. It is now clear that there is more support for that merger than I assessed, though RfC is a demonstration for consensus it is not purely a vote. To merge a long standing article you will need more than a simple majority. As to the picture, it fine but the reference to subway must go as spam. --] (]) 23:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Yeah ] screwed up the whole thing and I had to fix it. The reference to Subway should stay. It is not spam. It is an illustration of the world-wide availability of Hoagies, which some of my fellow NJ-NY-PA natives would like to falsely claim are not hoagies, and that you can only get "real" Hoagies from that region. Read the opening paragraph that I revised today to clarify that hoagies are available not just in NY-NJ-PA, but all over the US and because of Subway and Quinzos... all over the world. That, I believe is very relevant to the topic. It doesn't need to be removed any more than the pic and ref of a ] burger needs to be removed from the ] article. If so, ] would be spam beyond belief. ] (]) 23:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
*OK, I modified the caption to remove the Subway reference, but won't oppose the return of your text for now. I'd prefer seeing the discussion of the widespread availability handled another way in a rewrite, but that is pending on the success of the merger. I didn't mean to get contentious with you; I was looking for a compromise and didn’t realize you were vested in the photo-- I don't have strong feelings on this just keep an eye on it since it seems to be an orphan-article that attracts a lot of POV.
*I don’t see this as hugely important as a sandwich article, but very interesting historically as to the various explanations of the name. I stumbled here months ago working on shipping articles as a result of a reference from the Hog Island shipyard article. Shipping and especially as it relates to SF Bay is among my areas of interest.
Have a great Thanksgiving! --] (]) 00:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
**We edit conflicted, so my response doesn't cover your full comment, but for now have a great holiday. Cheers! --] (]) 00:02, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry if I was a bit aggressive. I am somewhat personally attached I guess. Of course since high school or so I knew of Subway and what not, but until I moved out of NJ at age 31, I actually had no idea that pretty much nobody else anywhere called them Hoagies. Then I checked Misplaced Pages and was stunned by the article that was clearly written by former neighbors of mine pretty much claiming Hoagies were some kind of unique special variety of a sandwich that's not related to Subs at all. It was ridiculous how the article was a few months ago. It also seemed that a good number of people tried in the past to fix and/or merge it with Subs but got ganged up on by NY-NJ-PA folks who shut them down. That ain’t the way it's supposed to work, so I took it upon myself to handle it. I suspect a few of them realized once they were dealing with one of their own that the BS wasn't gonna fly. BTW, if ya do skip Subway and Quiznoes you actually can get really great authentic Hoagies out here. Try http://www.mortysdeli.com in SF. Hoagies? The Bay Area's got it covered! Pizza? That's another story! And they make ] but NO ]!!! :-P Happy Thanksgiving! ] (]) 00:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
**No worries! I look forward to trying Morty's. --] (]) 00:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Morty's: http://picsorban.com/upload/san_francisco_hoagie.jpg ] ] (]) 00:58, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
== Advice not related to WP ==
My area of specialty is fast foods and fast casual restaurant operations, not catering. The person to speak to would be ] from the ] who is a certified chef/trainer. He could provide you with help that is much better that I could with this type of question.
Hope this helps,
--] (<small> ]</small>) 18:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
==Gun control==
I like most of your changes on the ] introduction. But I think it's important to indicate that they are not only distinct from NRA but the nature of that difference. Has someone objected to saying they are pro-gun control? I don't really see how it's controversial or subjective. It seems to be the whole point of the group's existence and true by definition. No? ] (]) 17:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
: I think that "gun control" is a bit of a US centric buzz word. A more generic term would be restrictions on gun ownership. I also think that there si some subjectivity in applying lables and defining what they really do. I think that we should be careful around this topic. --] (]) 15:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
::As it's a regional U.S. organization, I think some US centric wording isn't out of line. If a clarfication to give broader context to what gun control means is needed, I'm all for it. My issue was just that one could read the whole introduction and not know why the organization existed. ] (]) 18:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there any chance of denominating ] to an essay? I compiled a history of this guideline. ]. What is the climate for such change and is there enough support to demote it? Please comment at length. You can e-mail me also.
I respect your work on this page. For months you seemed like the only voice of reason to stop such a policy change. ] (]) 20:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
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==A RfC you participated in is being discussed==
*] ] (]) 13:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
==You maybe interested in the Article Rescue Squadron==
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== Sausage + Coddle ==
Hi Kevin, you may have been looking for guidance on the type of sausage to use in coddle. In general, Irish people only refer to one type of sausage - a pork sausage. It's the same sausage as the one used for Irish breakfasts and is pretty identical to pork sausages in the UK too. In my experience, you should be able to source something called a "breakfast sausage" in SF. There used be an Irish shop on Geary out of down town, (Geary and 22nd Avenue or something like that) and they used to sell Irish sausages (and bacon, etc). There's a bunch of Irish pubs around there too, and they'd be happy to tell you where to get sausages. In general, the best place to look for sausage receipes is . Have fun! Wish I was there! --] (]) 13:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
== File:CT DNA Vibrator.pdf listed for deletion ==
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}} <!-- Template:Idw --> ] (]) 04:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
== John Cahn's wife ==
I think it is amazing that you know so much about the wife of notable physical chemist and thermodynamicist John Cahn (who I will be meeting with in May on UW Campus in Seattle to discuss my work). You must have quite a background ! -- ] (]) 15:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the ] status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.
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==File source problem with File:Boeing P12.jpg==
]
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If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following . '''Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged''', as described on ]. If the image is copyrighted under a ] (per ]) then '''the image will be deleted ] after 16:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)'''. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no source-notice --> ] (]) 16:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
==File source problem with File:Orenco D.jpg==
]
Thanks for uploading ''']'''. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the ] status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.
If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following . '''Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged''', as described on ]. If the image is copyrighted under a ] (per ]) then '''the image will be deleted ] after 05:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)'''. If you have any questions please ask them at the ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-no source-notice --> ] (]) 05:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
== Your note ==
I can certainly take a look, Kevin, though I can't promise anything, as it's not an area I'd normally edit it. But I will at least look at it. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 16:46, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | I hereby award you the Original Barnstar for your tireless efforts to improve Misplaced Pages by helping to make articles about somewhat notable subjects more encyclopedic and well-referenced. — ] <span class="plainlinksneverexpand">(]|])</span> 05:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
|}
|}
{{Col-4}}
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{{Col-4}}
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== Thanksforthe Barnstar! ==
== No Gods Image-Zeus.jpg ==
I modified and made a of it with a transparent background. I'm not too familiar with the process so feel free to check things over and make sure all the licenses, permissions, credits, summaries, sources, copyrights, descriptions, backlinks, frontlinks, permits, warrants, patents, and executive summaries are all in order. And if there is anything you can do to show YOU as the creator of the image, then feel free to do that as well. ] (]) 11:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
It is much appreciated! — ] <span class="plainlinksneverexpand">(]|])</span> 06:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
== Misplaced Pages:Quotations is being proposed as a guideline ==
== Merge ==
This is to inform you that ] is being proposed as a guideline. I note that you have been involved in previous proposals regarding this page, and as such might be interested in participating in the current discussion: ].--] (]) 07:05, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Well done, thanks for taking the time for that. ] 11:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
== ] ==
==Hi==
{{Sailing invite}}
Did you notice that Bannisdale Beck doesn't contain a word of content?-] 02:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Kevin: This project might interest you. I like your work on the Cal, Catalina, etc. articles. ] (]) 20:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
== Do it right or don't to it at all... ==
*An administrator has deleted it. The correct procedure was speedy deletion. I did not know.-] 08:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
With regards to , that the ''Oregon'' article is currently unsourced does not give us an excuse to do shoddy work in the ''Olympia'' article. The goal is to get the article to FA—unsourced or poorly sourced material has no place in an article of that quality. There's absolutely no reason to create more work for ourselves by adding material without a specific source while we're trying to build the article up. ] (]) 16:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
*If the correct thing to do was speedy delete, why did you not tell me that? And why did you remove the "prod" tag? I have put many tags on today, and there have been only a few complaints. I am not sure I understand the few complaints, either. You removed a tag which gives five days time for fixing, I put the more serious AfD tag up, the article is immediately deleted. You have not replied about Iqbal, either.-] 08:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
:I don't see anything wrong with the change you made, though I also don't see it having changed the meaning of the sentence really at all. Either is fine by me. Thanks for catching the past-tense error in the characteristics section; most of the articles I write are on ships that ] so I have a habit of past-tense for everything.
==Yaser Iqbal==
:Is there any chance you can easily get Cooling's book? I was using Google Books for the material I added this morning, but it cuts off at page 49 for me. I imagine the rest of the content would be immensely useful for the more obscure periods of the ship's career (between the wars and her last years with the USN).
:We should have a few more editors dropping by once they get access to some other sources (see the discussion ] about ''Olympia''—as an aside, we can always use another naval historian over at ]). Ideally, we can get the article through FAC by 1 May, so we can run it on the anniversary of the Battle of Manila. ] (]) 17:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
::Sounds like a plan. Heres hoping that book comes in soon. ] (]) 19:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Did you do a Google search for that guy? It's a fairly common name, but nothing comes up for barrister or lawyer. For human rights, there is one hit: "Human Rights in Pakistan - Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary ...
I have been informed that, as a last resort, Mr. Khan's lawyer filed a ... On 13 August 2002, in Lahore, Fouzia was shot dead by her brother, Yasir Iqbal. ...
www.extrajudicialexecutions.org/ communications/pakistan.html - 196k " I think that article could be a hoax.-] 03:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Lead sections should summaries the information to follow, but each article is different, so the lead for each article inevitably fluctuates to a size consistent with the information to follow. I believe that the lead sections for the entire Iowa class of battleships were more or less written by me, these are usually short, yet the intro I did for '']'' is long because much needed to be said of ''Hood'''s service in the Royal Navy. The key is to strike the right balance to wet an appetite for more yet keep the juiciest details out so these can be expended upon in the article body. To this end it may be true that my version has more details than Parsecboy's version, but if Parsecboy has done a better job of condensing the information than the purpose of the lead is fulfilled. In the end the excellent presentation of information is all that really matters, and if I had even a small hand in assisting this process then I am happy. ] (]) 19:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
== MsHyde ==
==Rescue==
] ] (]) 13:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
== US Navy date format ==
It may be unusual but I don't see her as problematic. It's true that she could be somebody's secondary account, but that's not a problem (sockpuppetry is disallowed mainly if the sock is astroturfing). It could also be an IP that finally decided to register. It could also be a novice user with wikignoming tendencies. I don't see anything particularly troublesome about the PRODs she's made; perhaps she needs to read up a bit on ] or ], but the intent looks good to me. ] 10:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I saw ] and wanted to let you know that the appropriate date format for the US Military is date-month-year. That is in fact codified in the MOS: ]. -''']'''<sub>]</sub> 02:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
:] may be of interest. ] 22:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
==A Class review Mississippi class battleship==
== Redhouse Yacht Club ==
Hi I have added the article to the list the link is here ] you might like to add it to your watchlist and check you are happy with the wording I used. --] (]) 15:08, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
You made a ridiculous accusation on the article talk page. I have removed a small amount of incidental wordage. I have restructured the article under headings, it now meets WP:MOS, and added cats. Any objective view would see this. The article structure was a bit of a mess and I sorted it out with no sourced material removed. My concern is with the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I am also fed up with unfounded accusations against me. Any more and I shall take it forward as an incident.
=== Re: Greek naval ships ===
Before you hit the revert button again, '''please read''' my version and explain why it is not better.
I have a copy of this book (the 3rd edition in English), which I bought from the small shop in the ]. It contains a very brief description and only a few lines of history for each ship. I believe all information contained in this book is already included in articles ] and ]. ] (]) 03:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
] 17:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
: I have no easy access to a scanner. I could mail you photocopies if you give me your postal address. ] (]) 17:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
:: I mailed photocopies of the two relevant pages today. I hope you find them useful. ] (]) 09:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
::: Hi, have you received the two photocopied pages ? ] (]) 06:01, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
==Talkback==
== Bula from Fiji ==
{{talkback|The ed17|USS Mississippi|ts=08:28, 9 October 2010 (UTC)}}
== Re: Battle of Szigetvár ==
Bula Kevin
Thank you - and that's a very good job from what I can tell at the moment... Definitely not an easy one, there were all sorts of problems with the prose. ] (]) 07:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
sorry to bother you just following up to see if you had time to review my article which was AFDed until I get cited sources I have tried to e-mail you to send a copy for you to review, but with no response. maybe I have the wrong e-mail?
:Thanks for a good job...I am sure that the article will be significantly improved. ] (]) 08:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
==Talkback==
{{talkback|Seraphimblade|ts=02:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)}}
== Misplaced Pages Club at Berkeley ==
was wondering if you were still interested in reviewing? if not thats O.k to, please advise
Hi Kevin, I'm just writing to let you know that me and some Wikipedian friends are launching , a student club for promoting participation in Misplaced Pages and face-to-face collaborations. If that sounds fun to you, please consider . You don't have to be a student to participate, as long as you live in the Bay Area. Thanks! ] 01:14, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Thank you
Maikeli
== Proposed deletion ==
] 22:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
==Bula from Fiji==
An article you have helped edit, ] (which was formerly entitled "Confirmation and overclaiming of aerial victories") has been proposed for deletion.
no worries on the time thing I still had a few sources to add but I just wanted you to review the format so far, my sources a very comprehensive so far.
] (]) 17:39, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
can you e-mail through wikipedia? I just copied your e-mail then used my private e-mail to e-mail you.
==Lear name==
Can you tell me if ] is the company that made the ]? I can't really figure it out from the articles. ] (]) 17:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
== Pacific Seacraft ==
now user David Cannon said he has deleted until I find cited and verifiable sources, just out of curosity how long should I wait before undergoing the process to get the article reinstated?
I'm tagging the article for deletion. While it's not your fault, it has become a vanity piece for the company, and does not meet the notability guidelines. ] (]) 15:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
== Fortuna III article ==
anyway thanks for the speedy reply hope alls well in your end of the world
Hi,
and in my Langauge 'Loloma Yani' or in english 'Well wishes'.
I created a new article for Fortuna III a sailing ship, maybe you want to add something to it.
Hi, I see you've been involved in ]. I have begun ] and would appreciate your input. -- ] (]) 02:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
I'll work with you if a few others get on board. Like JK for example, and Jamal. This whole process just makes me nervous. Let's see how they feel about it. ] 23:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to the first edition of ''The Olive Branch''. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in ] (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are ], but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to ].
Have a look at ]. I asked the deleting admin to undelete some of ]'s articles tagged during his tantrum, and he adamantly refuses! ] 00:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
]
In this issue:
* '''Background''': A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
* '''Research''': The most recent DR data
* '''Survey results''': Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
* '''Activity analysis''': Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
* '''DR Noticeboard comparison''': How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
* '''Discussion update''': Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
* '''Proposal''': It's time to close the ]. Agree or disagree?
--''The Olive Branch'' 19:11, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
== Bruce McMahan ==
<!-- EdwardsBot 0345 -->
Kevin, thank you for informing me. ] 18:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
== AFD opinion ==
:Check out the addition by ], a single-purpose editor. From my brief skimming, it's a law suit brought on by the Argent Funds Group (which McMahan owns) accusing McMahan's daughter of stealing computers. These guys are persistent. ] 01:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi. based on your response over at katherine webb you seem to have uncommon insight into notability requirements. If you can find the time could you evaluate ]? Thanks ] (]) 01:28, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
== Should Raymarine be moved instead of redirected? ==
==Women's history editathon==
Should Raymarine be moved instead of redirected? From your edit, it seems you feel (and I agree) that perhaps "Raymarine" is the correct entry instead of "Raymarine Marine Electronics". - ] | ] 18:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey -
Sorry for the late notice, but since you have yourself tagged as living in the Bay Area, I thought you might appreciate notification that we’re having an event Saturday! It’ll be held at Hoyt Hall, an all-women's house of the ] from 3 to 6 pm tomorrow. The main event page is ].
Anyone is welcome to show up, but we’re expecting a significant number of people to come who have literally never edited Misplaced Pages before. If you’re an experienced Wikipedian who would be able to provide useful help to some of the newbies, your presence would be especially appreciated (and it might be a good idea for you to show up at 2 or 2:30 instead of three.
Thanks, ] (]) 02:02, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
<small>I’m AWB’ing this message to all Wikipedians who have tagged themselves in the bay area. I’m sorry if the message isn’t of interest to you; feel free to delete it. I’ll be unlikely to send future messages in a similar way, but if really don’t want to receive future messages of this sort, please let me know. </small>
== Files missing description details ==
<div style="padding:5px; background-color:#E1F1DE;">'''Dear uploader:''' The media files you uploaded as:
== Bruce McMahan Article ==
*]
*]
are missing a description and/or other details on their image description pages. If possible, please add this information. This will help other editors make better use of the images, and they will be more informative to readers.
If the information is not provided, the images may eventually be proposed for ],
Kevin Murray
a situation which is not desirable, and which can easily be avoided.
If you have any questions, please see ]. Thank you. ] (]) 10:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC) </div><!-- Template:Add-desc-l -->
Regarding the Bruce McMahan article, I can assure you the unidentified user was correct in stating the florida complaint you post is a document under seal, and its disclosure constitutes an illegal act. Moreover, this complaint IS NOT the work of the Federal Government, as you state. It is a State complaint, and as stated, is under seal. I have removed this complaint, and I respectfully ask you refrain from posting this complaint, as it constitutes an illegal act, which you have now been apprised of by an identified user. ] 23:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
==MfD nomination of ]==
:* Nole is a single purpose user or sockpuppet. This document, which is the original complaint in the matter is a public record, available through the Freedom of Information Act and published elsewhere on the web. Florida does not have jurisdiction outside of its border even if the claim is true that the case is "sealed", and that the seal is pertinent to document already obtained for publication. --] 06:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at ] and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). You are free to edit the content of ] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> ] (]) 21:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Welcome your input on above - I didn't see that the actual draft was referenced anywhere, but maybe it has since be de-linked. Do you think it should be saved for historical purposes? Thanks. Please share your thoughts at the MFD. --] (]) 15:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi Kevin, Just got your message. No I am not the IP address you are asking about. I didn't know my IP address until it was posted, but it doesn't match that one, so I'm not sure what the question is. My edits were removal where a citation was needed, Misplaced Pages guidelines say remove it immediately if there is any question, don't wait for the citation and removal of one link that is not a verifiable source. Perhaps I didn't explain my edits sufficiently in the space bars, but I did use the terms I thought were the correct ones. I was not vandalizing anything. It seems a lot of people are putting up articles, documents and then they are being removed, especially in the last couple of days. And they aren't being accused of valdalism. I personally haven't posted one document, link, or source, I have only questioned the reasons for this article being on Misplaced Pages. It is just the nature of the tabloid press that they pick all of this up from a single source, so that doesn't make Dealbreaker.com (bills itself as a Wall Street tabloid)anything more than a sensationalistic link posted first before any positive info about the subjects. It's interesting that court documents are being removed as not pertinent to the article, but the content of the tabloid article is being touted as the important source for the entry.
] 17:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Kevin, I found out how to check my IP address, that is not my address.] 17:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
== File:No Gods Image-Zeus.jpg listed for deletion ==
Kevin, I agree with your comment re: "distance learning." ] 20:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw --> ] (]) 09:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
== Thanks man (TCO) ==
I'm afraid I will just engender hostile reactions and this will become more of a contentious edit war for Misplaced Pages. ] 23:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
You look great out there sailing. Only at sea is a man truly free.] (]) 02:36, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Kevin, I've done a lot of document editing in my life and I know there are lists of many subjects that need work, what's the best tutorial on here for understanding the process or do you just make your way through the community portal?] 23:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
== October 2013 ==
] Hello, I'm ]. I have automatically detected that to ] may have broken the ] by modifying 1 ""s. If you have, don't worry: just again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on .
== Merge ==
:List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:
*<nowiki>prices will rise, or force need-based-buyers to out bid irrational or ill-informed buyers.<ref></nowiki>{{red|'''['''}}<nowiki>http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-07-12/news/8602190919_1_realty-agent-net-listing-sales-</nowiki>
== Notification of automated file description generation ==
Hi there! When you merge a page, you're supposed to replace it with the redirect, not add the redirect tag to the top. Otherwise it may wrongly appear in category and link lists. HTH! . ] 17:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Your upload of ] or contribution to its description is noted, and thanks (even if belatedly) for your contribution. In order to help make better use of the media, an attempt has been made by an automated process to identify and add certain information to the media's description page.
This notification is placed on your talk page because a bot has identified you either as the uploader of the file, or as a contributor to its metadata. It would be appreciated if you could carefully review the information the bot added. To opt out of these notifications, please follow the instructions ]. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 13:58, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
== PLI ==
*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:42, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, to be honest I haven't been paying attention to the debate there lately. I left the debate because it was going in circles. I think it's good to have ''a'' guideline on local items, because it's an issue that comes up a lot; I have no particular opinion on the present version. Note that I didn't "last remove the guideline tag". Rebecca changed it from guideline to essay, I restored the "proposed" tag because at that point it was still under discussion.
*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:36, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
At any rate - the page appears to have been stable since the end of December, and Rebecca was still editing the talk page by then, and it's linked from {{tl|IncGuide}}, so I seriously doubt it has gone under the radar. As such I would be more interested in arguments over the content of the page (which, by the way, you're free to edit, I'm sure you knew that) than arguments that it has no consensus. If it truly has no consensus, there must be people who disagree with its content, and if there are, it should be possible to discuss that. HTH! ] 17:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:41, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
*I've dropped a note on the village pump and AFD talk. I'm not going to join the discussion there but I think some others should drop in to comment. ] 17:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
== SPAM in the Creek ==
*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello,
*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:16, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
On the ] entry, the external link to Dan Haren's blog was not a "spam link to blog posing as a footnote" but in fact a cited source. The blog is an "official" blog on the MLB website, wherein he notes that he lives in Walnut Creek. I'm not really sure where else you can get a verifiable source of his place of residence (neither the Oakland A's official site nor ESPN's website make any mention of his place of residence - only his birthplace). I know that there are a lot of wikifolks out there who are vehemently opposed to links to blogs, and for the most part I understand, however there are certain instances (albeit few) where a link to a blog may in fact be appropriate. For example, in ] #11 on the list is "Links to blogs and personal webpages, ''except those written by a recognized authority''" (italics added). Now the term "recognized authority" is perhaps a little bit ambiguous, but I think that it's safe to say that a major league baseball player's own official blog posted on the Major League Baseball website could reasonably be determined a "recognized authority" when it comes to the player stating where he lives. Without this link, the addition of Dan Haren to the list of Walnut Creek's famous citizens is yet another bit of unverified information. I'd like to restore the link, but I'd rather of course talk about it first before I take any action.
*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:16, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and one more thing: it's really not necessary to warn me about spamming of articles on my ] page. I was acting in ] and I'm sure that there are other, more ] ways to broach the subject.
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Thank you,
*Another one of your uploads, ], has also had some information automatically added. If you get a moment, please review the bot's contributions there as well. Thanks!<!--Template:Un-botfill-null--> ''Message delivered by ] (])'' 14:08, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
] 02:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
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==]==
I thought you might be interested in the above. ] 01:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
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==run amock?==
== Proposed rename of Southampton Shoal Light ==
In what ways do you feel I've "run amock"? ] 21:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that we rename ] to use a single 'h'. My reasoning is at ]. I would appreciate your input. ] (]) 16:20, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
::In what way have I "run amock" at all. I have been working with great care and respect for the work of others. I have not deleted anything, and I always try to preserve the changes others add. It really hurts me that you seem to think that I've "run amock" ''in any way at all''. I just need to say that frankly and openly to you.
==]==
]
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::I feel that also, some of the time, you have been rather dismissive about my concerns about accuracy in things like the Bell Curve Graph. I suppose this may not be an important issue to you, but this issue has a direct impact on the students I teach every day. They see and hear these messages that "they can't make it" and that "they can't succeed" all of the time from every source. I see the impact of that on people's lives. It really hurts people. It can make them give up. It is too much to ask that these articles are clear and accurate? I don't think it is too much to ask.
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:: I had cleaned up that article and renamed it a few years ago but didn't want to fuss too much with the prior editor's work. But to address your concerns I've rewritten the lede. That being said, it's very possible that the Flikr article could have been lifted from our text. This story is very common knowledge to camera collectors and well documented in several of the cited references. Happy holidays! --] (]) 20:55, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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:::* FB. I'm the one who has been suggesting that we remove the bell curves. Kevin. --] 02:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
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''FB. I'm the one who has been suggesting that we remove the bell curves. Kevin.''
== wow, thanks ==
Okay okay okay.
I'm sorry for being so... sensitive. This is so much work and I don't want to do it all myself. But I can't seem to get anyone I know to really dig in and help. It feels like a lonely battle some of the time and I keep my guard up. Possibly a little too much.
I don't use the three-letter acronym, nor the five-letter-acronym, but I did really laugh when I read this.
This stuff isn't exactly bring out my best side. I don't think we can remove them, though, they are sourced, the source is bad, but it's a source, you know? What can do is put them in proper context.
* ]
Gracias, made my day, ] (]) 22:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
Glad you enjoyed this! --] (]) 02:43, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I just made a new version of the curves with the labels Gottfredson uses in her study. I'm hoping this will cause people to re-think using them as the lead image. What do you think? ] 02:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
==WikiProject Notre Dame Invite==
::Kevin, I wasn't trying to make the graph more palatable. I was trying to make it more true to its source. Have you read that paper? It's really disturbing. I think when one encounters disturbing things on the[REDACTED] the way to address them is to ''add more information'' about them. Then people can see for themselves how bizarre some of the ideas really are. You can see this this is one persons view of how the world works, and you can then stop thinking that this is how you ought to see the world because its a "fact" --maybe, I overestimate the ability of the lay public to think critically just as some of the researchers cited in the article under estimate the ability of entire nations to do the same things.] 02:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey! I noticed you are a Notre Dame alumnus, hence I wanted to invite you to join our project.
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I see you've moved a portion of the lead of this article into a trivia section. I'm curious to know why exactly that was done, particularly since ] generally frowns on such sections and with a GA-class rating material in question seemed better paired with its international first based counterpart, which I see is still in the lead. I'm not going to revert the move, but I'd like to get input from you on why you feel that this is trivia instead of relevant information so I can get a better idea where to go from here. ] (]) 02:26, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
* Hi Tom, I felt that the information is trivial to the history of a battleship, and didn't belong in the lead which should only be a summary of that which will be presented in the body of the article. I agree that plugging it into a trivia section was lazy on my part, but my objective was to clean up the lead. Any ideas? Thanks! --] (]) 00:57, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
* In essence what was there in the article was a de facto "trivia section" within the lead. --] (]) 00:58, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
**With regards to bullet point one, I concede the point, however if a discussion had opened on this we'd have been able to figure out what to do with the information. With regards to bullet point two, the answer is actually yes and no. ''Texas'' shares the same role as ] in that they both served as test-beds for new and/or experimental weaponry, which is definitely not trivia, however they way in which it was presented could be seen as trivia. If you have no objections, I'd like to play with this some to eliminate the trivia section before someone complains about a GA article and a ship article having a trivia section and using it to justify adding more trivia sections to our ship article(s). ] (]) 14:08, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
*** I trust your judgment Tom. It seemed wrong to me in the lead. Go with your best instinct on how to deal with it. I will have no complaint with your choices. Thank you very much for your courtesy in dealing with this issue and sharing your concerns. --] (]) 19:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
****I took a stab at removing the trivia section by rewording some of the material, but I would like your input on the change since you were the one who thought it seemed weird. If it still seems weird I'll see about a complete reworking of the content by putting them into the article directly. ] (]) 03:45, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
***** I very much like the way you handled that -- very nicely done. Best regards! --] (]) 03:56, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
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I was already talking with you on the talk page, and using a post-WP:BRD-ian revert to actually invite Minderbender into the conversation. That didn't quite work then. Oh well back to the drawing board. Anyway, discuss on talk?
Note that How to create policy does not in fact have consensus, and admits as much implicitly in the body text.
Rather than talking about "processes to demote policy" which we don't actually have on Misplaced Pages, it would help if you made an argument about the content of that page on its talk page. Analysis shows that (1) nearly no policy on Misplaced Pages was ever written using the methods described here, and (2) nearly all proposals made using the methods described here fail. >Radiant<15:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You say it "has been instrumental in curbing Creep" - got any evidence of that? It would seem that instead, it has been instrumental in creating creep. >Radiant<15:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'd be happy to remove all the parts that are bad advice, misrepresent actuality, or simply don't work, but if I do that there won't be much left of the page. >Radiant<15:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Heh, Radiant is wikipedia's one-man anti-creep brigade. We've always needed to watch him to make sure he didn't occasionally kill a process or policy that was actually (still/already) in mainstream use.;-) --Kim Bruning00:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
There is not currently consensus to determine that the proposal is unlikely to achieve consensus. There should be some warning before placing a "rejected" template on a page to see what arguments are advanced for or against the template. You gave no warning before doing it. You cannot singlehandedly make that determination, not called for by anybody else, and then revert to your version over the objections of another editor. Currently, there is one editor in favour of the template and one against. Inactivity is not in itself a reason to say that consensus is unlikely to form. I am going to remove the template, and you can propose on the talk page that a "rejected" template be placed on the page. People will of course express their views on the possibility or impossibility of eventual consensus, rather than on the proposal itself. Joeldl10:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's not about the number of users. It's about the content of the page. >Radiant<12:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it strikes me that if the HCP page was a proposal, then based on the systematic dissent on the talk page, you would reject the page as part of your cleanup of CAT:PRO. It would seem that this page does not meet your standards of being a "guideline". >Radiant<12:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
A fine bit of logic, but flawed in that this page was already an accepted guideline, not a floundering proposal. This is one reason why I'm admonishing people to be careful about acknowledging proposals as guidelines since there is no clear-cut process for deprecating them. Clearly the precedents are that removing a guideline is more difficult than removing a proposal (i.e., protecting the status quo). --Kevin Murray12:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
And why do you think it is an accepted guideline? Do you base this only on the presence of the tag or do you have some other benchmark? >Radiant<12:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Charles Murray.gif) was found at the following location: User:Kevin Murray/IQ draft. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk20:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding rejection of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Pokémon/Layout
Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Discover Sept 1982.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Kevin Murray/IQ draft. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk00:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Since I accidentally hit enter before I was done: a) Your determination that there will never be consensus regarding this issue is premature, especially since there are only three users objecting, refusing to compromise, and who are not related to highways; and b) Since you are opposing the policy, it is a conflict of interest for you to tag this as {{rejected}}. Get an uninvolved party to do this rather than doing it yourself. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Since you do not express interest in highways, and that you oppose it, you are no longer neutral. Because of this, you are welcome to discuss it, but not change it back to rejected. V6003:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Kevin Murray. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Jensen2.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Kevin Murray/IQ draft. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk10:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Move of WP:NEO
Kevin, I posted a query at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (neologisms) asking about the discussion of the rename that you mention in the edit summary for the move. I'm not sure if you've seen that, so I'm posting here to ask again. If you're referring to the discussion a couple of paragraphs higher up on that page, which you and I participated in, I have to say that it didn't look to me as if we reached consensus on any changes. Did you have a different discussion in mind? Thanks. Mike Christie(talk)12:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Notability
Hi Kevin: I agree that there hasn't yet been enough discussion on the "Level Playing Field" question but it seems that we are the only 2 editors interested - by making the edit I was hoping to get some comment. Any orther ideas?? NBeale14:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Kevin. Sure enough a major museum has now announced a photogrpahy competition which will make thousands of otherwise unknown photographers "notable". Shall we try the suggested amendment and see if anyone else can comment on it? Or can you amend the suggestion? NBeale05:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Personal
Listen, perhaps my comment was too personal and shouldn't have been made in that way. But I wanted to warn Truth About Spelling that you have been very aggressive in your editing. You were with me by reverting back to "rejected" after I protested. The normal thing to do in those cases is to temporarily leave the status quo in place and begin a discussion. I think trying to scare people off from contributing to policy discussions is a bit of a no-no too, whatever the reason. I felt that there was a bit of a problem in acting as if seniority was the only important thing in establishing an editor's credibility to contribute to a discussion. Isn't one's own adherence to policy just as important? Also, there was nothing wrong with Truth About Spelling's contribution. He was honest about his familiarity with procedure but was expressing an opinion on the substance of the issue. So what. Why shouldn't he? Anyway, there's discussion, now, other editors... It shouldn't be personal. But to be perfectly honest, I was offended by your aggressiveness. Joeldl15:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
You said, "The concept of having bus schedule in WP goes against the concept of ignificant or non-trivial". I tend to agree with you, but Category:Bus routes proves that other people disagree. Perhaps we should drop one or two of them on AFD to see what the community thinks. >Radiant<09:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I hope all is well just wanting your help following is the last message left on my Talk page by User David Cannon
Your articlesJust letting you know that the decision of the AFD vote was to delete Turaga na Rasau, Turaga na Ravunisa, Keni Naulumatua, Keni Naulumatua II, and Mere Tuisalalo pending sourcing.
In practical terms, that means that if and when you can get a credible source to cite, as you have been planning, just let me (or any other administrator) know, and we'll restore the relevant articles. (They're still in the system, accessible only to administrators). User:Davidcannon09:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
with that in mind two weeks ago I left a message on Davids talk page but it appears with the message he left on his user page that he will be busy for some time and won't be able to respond to much of anything anytime soon, having said that I was wondering if you could assist as an administrator to restore my Turaga na Rasau article so I am able to edit it, clean it up and then add all my variuos sources.
I would be grateful for your help and feedback on this matter.
I have just created two new articles one being Fijian Religion and the other being Fijian Tradition & Ceremony, your input and help would be very much appreciated when you have the time.
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Melges logo.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot22:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Kevin, a few weeks ago, you asjed if there was anything you coud do to help the WP:AIR project. If you are still interested, I have some sandbox articles that need some work to get ready for the mainspace. In particular, I need help converting text "copied" from other sources into usable, sourced, encyclopedic text. Rewriting text wholesale is pretty tedious for me, as I am usually better at copy editing and tweaking. If this is something you'd be interested in doing, please let me know. I have all my sandboxes listed on my userpage. The 3 projects I'm concentrating on right now are User:BillCJ/Sandbox/Sikorsky X2, User:BillCJ/Sandbox/Sikorsky S-69, and User:BillCJ/Sandbox/Sikorsky S-75. If interested, could you take a look at these, and see if you are able to help? Thanks for whatever way you can help. - BillCJ17:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading Image:DavidLynchGraphic.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).
If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot02:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Judge Patrick Willis
Thank you for your support with this article. I really want to make a legitimate contribution, and I'm doing my best to fill in the blanks. I will find citations for everything, I'm working on it but it takes a little longer for non-internet sources. I only hope the article is not deleted before I can ensure it conforms to the guidelines. I'm going to get the citations, please let me know if there is anything else I can do. Thanks again for your help! paprikaphd 23:09, 17 June 2007
I went back and read comments about the propsed name change. I certainly don't have a problem changing the name. The reason I listed it as "Judge Patrick Willis" was that I found several other judges listed that way. What do I need to do to fix it? paprikaphd 16:56, 17 June 2007
Thanks for the help, and the compliment. I hope it was enough to save the article! paprikaphd 19:07, 19 June 2007
We made it! Deletion notice was removed, the article's a keeper. Thanks for all your help! paprikaphd 21:49, 22 June 2007
A tag has been placed on Burger Boat Company, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done because the article appears to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.
If you think that you can assert the notability of the subject, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm the subject's notability under Misplaced Pages guidelines.
Hey Kevin Murray, would you mind looking at your revert of my edits here? In my edit I bolded the title per conventions, wikilinked the town its based in, added a citation needed, added some hyphens where appropriate, fixed a typo on the word service, moved a citation from the inside of a period to the outside (per convention), and removed references that you listed twice. In the version you just reverted to, the three sources you footnoted now exist in two sections. It only needs to be listed once (in the reference list generated by the footnoting). Would you mind reexamining your revert? Thanks, Metros19:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
general N
Current thoughts on general vs special criteria: --I've argued both ways from time to time, for the contradiction can be used to get any desired result. If anything, it shows we need flexible rules, because after all the real point is "encyclopedic". Current idea: special rules for broad groups, then 2RSs if needed to decide or if no other rules apply. and, personally, I would include anything in de WP except perhaps German local figures--I trust them more than I trust us here--but I do not see how i can propose that :) .DGG20:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Revert? Compound diff. The Cretan republics are some of the Greek city-states, almost all of which were republics - in any sense - at least at some point, Sparta being one of the few exceptions (perhaps the only one); including them is therefore redundant. The senses of republic on which WHEELER insists are all archaizing, being literal translations of res publica or politeia, which could mean city-state, constitutional government, or (in some passages in Aristotle) mixed government. (Aristotle had doubts whether Sparta qualified.) There is no real point in including that in articles on "republic", except as cross-references.
As for people's republics: I believe the standard position to be that they were Republics, without being free states. Tito, for example, was a dictator, but not a monarch; his family did not succeed him.
As for WHEELER's references, they are all, except for his Fearless Leader, Rahe , either dated or not English; most are both. They do not, in any case, belong in a list article, which is a navigational aid. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson21:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I hope you are doing well. I have re-labeled Misplaced Pages:WikiProject College football/Notability as a proposed guideline. I'm attempting to incorporate new suggestions from the Guideline Talk page, as well as to generate new discussion.
I thank you for providing a link to WP:ORG, that guideline is interesting, but not conclusive with respect to college football topics. According to WP:ORG, any team would meet notability criteria since they always are the topic of multiple non-trivial media reports. However, there are other questions that WP:ORG does not address. For instance, individual team seasons and individual contests such as bowl games.
These have been issues that in the past have wasted cycles in AfD and other discussions, and for that reason a guideline for the college football wikiproject is still useful. Johntex\ 00:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Kevin, thanks for your note. Please don't worry, I understand your motives. You are right in a way, all these guidelines can lead to a slippery slope situation - but that can work in reverse too. We could just as easily say that we shouldn't have a general guideline on organizations (WP:ORG) because it could lead to someone wanting a guideline on college football!
It would be fine with me if we just had one guideline - something like: "ANY topic is notable enough for an article if the topic is the subject of multiple non-trivial works." Until we agree on something that simple then instruction creep is a possibility.
I would like though to respond to your tongue in cheek example of guidelines for bowling tournaments, knitting tournaments, etc. One answer to this type of question is to say that if/when those activities get popular enough for an active wikiproject, then it would be appropriate for that wikiproject to come up with notability guidelines.
You may be right that it may be difficult to get agreement on a guideline such as this, but I see no reason why it should be impossible. The alternative is to have these debates one-by-one at AfD. That wastes everyone's time not only in the debate, but also in creating the article if it ends up being deleted. For that reason, it is far better to try to get a guideline in place so that deletion questions can be settled more quickly. Thanks again for your note. Johntex\ 00:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you...
...for you support at my RFA and (especially) for your hard work on the notability guidelines. I know you catch some flack, and I can't say I always agree with you, but I definitely think your efforts have made Misplaced Pages better.--Kubigula(talk)04:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC) (p.s. please consider archiving this page)
City councillors
Sorry for trying to update WP:BIO without enough prior discussion. We do need something that notes that for major cities we typically aim to have articles on all councillors. Toronto City Council, New York City Council, Chicago City Council, Ottawa City Council, and many others either have articles on all members, or will in the near future. Something should be added to prevent the unaware users from nominating such people for deletion. I agree that the term "major city" is vague. Can you think of an alternate wording that would work better? - SimonP20:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I very much agree that our various policies should allow articles on any councillors that get enough press coverage to write verifiable articles, but unfortunately that is not how WP:BIO is being interpreted. If you look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Eli El-Chantiry, for example, you will see that a number of users are interpreting the page to mean that articles on councillors are verboten. This will continue without some change to that page. - SimonP00:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Although we were on different sides of this discussion, I appreciate that you remained civil the entire time while disagreeing with people's votes. It's not that usual to see people disagreeing in a civil manner lately on Misplaced Pages (and I'm an offender). I also appreciate that you asked questions and directed (or tried to) discussion towards the issues involved with either keeping or deleting this and similar articles, in an attempt to develop future guidelines, rather than focusing on the narrow issue of one article. Thanks. KP Botany18:30, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Curtiss P-40
The picture was "overlapping" the text because you changed its alignment from left to right in this edit, which forced it up against the edge of the column.
I set up those paragraphs up in columns for two reasons:
a general rule of layout is that pics in text should alternate between right and left alignment, unless they are in a vertical row to make point (e.g. they represent a sequence of events).
Copyedit form my page: "re: Lindbergh Hi. Don't want to get into a pissing match here, but this seems like a reasonable statement. Do you dispute that Lindbergh was the first to fly nonstop from a mainland location to a mainland location? Perhaps I'm wrong on this. I have only been trying to edit other contributions into a more clear and concise text. I don't want to be difficult, but don't want to see good information omitted without reason. Cheers! --Kevin Murray18:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)"
Hi Kevin: In response, this article was the subject of a considerable edit war recently and I had to ask for administrators to redress the problem. As to whether this is a reasonable or not statement, it is not germane to the flight of the Spirit. Neither Ireland or Newfoundland can be considered "obscure" islands which were the start-end points of previous Atlantic overflights but nonetheless, the Orteig Prize was intended to recognize the first flight from New York to Paris, with a specification that the flight be non-stop. That is the claim to fame of the Lindbergh flight. Introducing an element of first "mainland-to-mainland" claim is fine but it was not what the Orteig Prize was intended to do. Raymond Orteig was a hotelier and promoter who saw the chance to exploit the Atlantic flight to raise the prestige of his hotel and incidentally that of France. The main notability of Lindbergh's exploit was that it was a solo flight as differentiated from the other competitors who had a multi-person crew (and often a twin-engined or larger aircraft type). I will include the note in the body of the text in the description of the flight's legacy but I felt that it was not the historic recognition of "mainland-to-mainland" that should appear in the introductory passages but the successful navigation of the Atlantic from New York to Paris in a solo flight. FWIW Bzuk19:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC).
Relevance drafts ready for editing/comments
Hi Kevin,
Father Goose and I have developed competing versions for a possible guideline on relevancy. I note you have previous participated at this project. Your contributions would be timely now.
My draft is the current proposed guideline only because I made mine after Father Goose did his. This is not to suggest either version is favored. Thanks for your interest... —WikiLen03:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks!
I'm actually not a newbie, just newly editing. That being said, I can always learn more and I'd love to get your feedback. I'll make a post on the VP soon and let you know. I'm editing Joe Montana right now, so i want to finish up that the section i'm working on before i jump to a new "train of thought" so to speak. Many thanks for your friendly attitude, it's a rarity around here. Jmfangio ► Talk 15:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It happens. A handful of editors basically railroaded their way over me and an entire project. It was a whole big mess and lasted about a month. A lot of nasty things happened and most at my expense. I eventually lost my cool with them and told them to "F-off" very publicly when nobody would step in and offer good help. I went to the MedCab, RFA, and a whole mess of other things. An admin even got into it with me (or me with him depending on your perspective) and then started using his admin powers to silence me while he falsely accussed me of things, talk about improper behavior huh. But whatever, one projects loss is anothers gain (well - at least i tell myself that to make me feel better about it!).
Anyway, I have not seen any "guidelines" in place for striking comments. I've seen small mentions of it here and there, but no real guideline or policy. Am I just not looking in the right place or does this need to be considered for guideline inclusion? I added this page to my watch list to make it easier on you. Jmfangio ► Talk 16:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, like I said, I don't really want to go down that road with them again. I don't particularly care and this person, and the rest of them, will certainly bring up the issue they have with me being a WP:SOCK who has been banned. I will certainly refer to WP:IAR in that my edits are almost exclusively based on bettering the content available and the I tend to lean more towards the "deletionist" attitude when dealing with repetative content. I am just thinking that establishing some guidelines for the use of striking comments will help people understand when it is an editing tool to be relied on. Jmfangio ► Talk 17:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
And btw, i'm not saying I am a sock, only that they accused me of being one and then found me guilty. It was a pretty ridiculous situation. Jmfangio ► Talk 17:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
You are implying but not clearly stating your concern. Aside from the past politics, I believe that your concern is that people/admins are striking out your comments at discussion pages. Is that correct? --Kevin Murray17:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Sort of, but not exactly. My concern is that a user is striking another users comments unilaterally. The fact that it involves me is imaterial as I don't care what happens in this case. I simply think establishing some guidelines could be useful to the community as a whole. Jmfangio ► Talk 17:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, the instance I am familiar with is only on talk pages. Then again, I would think that the guideline could/would extend to all articles in general. The best that I have seen is a brief mention of striking at WP:TALK. Jmfangio ► Talk 17:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
your comments re MoritzB
you wrote:
I read your comment at MoritzB's talk page, and looked bit deeper into the issue. Niggerhead seems to be a common term (pleasant or not) used frequently enough so that WP has a disambiguation page. I can't speak to MoritzB's motivation in inserting the term into the gems article, but it does seem plausible that it is factual (see coral) and that his intent was appropriate. I don't know the history of your relationship with Moritz, but the harsh accusation may be unwarranted. Cheers! --Kevin Murray17:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
My comments and Ramdrake's comments were harsh if you approach the question as a supporter of white supremacy, which MoritzB does support. The role of MoritzB on many pages pertaining to race history demonstrates that fact.Skywriter03:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Skywriter, I can only evaluate Moritz based on limited experience. However, we should remain civil at WP. He is entitled to his political opinions no matter how unsavory they might be. So far his comments have been in suggetion of Jewish supremacy which vastly differs from the mainstream white supremist position. Cheers and to better times together! --Kevin Murray04:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I was not aware of your appointment as defender of MoritzB or of guardian of civility. If MoritzB wants to race-bait, then MortizB reveals self as race baiter. Nothing uncivil about that if you like race baiting. Calling race baiting what it is -- is factual.
Further, you overstepped your bounds in failing to take changes to talk page. You seem to overlook that there has been recent active discussion on talk page of Race and Intelligence. You don't seem to be a big fan of seeking consensus especially in the presence of active discussion. The removal of the Melvin Konner reference will not only be reverted-- it will be expanded. The link to Amazon merely was to show his book was well-received. Someone else removed the citation which I will reinstate. He has a point of view not represented in this article, and an informed one at that as he is both an antbropologist and MD.
Cheers.Skywriter04:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I would prefer that you not try to pain me into a corner as an appologist for an unsavory position. I am merely politely reminding you of the WP Standards of civility. If youd prefer, I'll just refer future issues to an admin, although I'd rather just keep in between editors. --Kevin Murray04:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that you stop taking comments personally, particularly when they are not directed at you. It is factual that white supremacists as well as anti-racists are editing this article. Whether or not you see one or the other as unsavory is quite beside the point. Whether or not you choose to run to an admin is entirely your option.
Skywriter04:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Awards
For making a difference! This Barnstar isn't free, this is a chain barnstar, as payment please give this star to at least 3-5 others with 500+ edits but no barnstar.Pseudoanonymous18:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Triscuit
Triscuits and Wheat Thins are tied for number one in my book, but VERY close to Chicken In a Biscuit. So you need to lower your blood sugar, and I need to raise mine (hypoglycemic). Odd, but I have seen you at Guinea Pig as well. I have no idea what they have in common, but for 4 million users, this place seems increasingly small to me. I got seasick just looking at your contributions. Haha. the_undertow02:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I've seen you're very active in the area of notability on Misplaced Pages. I've asked a question here about actively demonstrating that an article is not notable. I would really value any thoughts or comments you might have.
As I've mentioned on the article's talk page, the photo could be a later Charger Loading Lee-Metford- it's not clear enough to tell. At any rate, the only real difference between a CLLM and a Charger Loading Lee-Enfield is the rifling, so as such I think the picture should stay until someone finds a better one... given the relative scarcity of actual MLM rifles, I think it's going to be a while. --Commander Zulu07:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
No problem- but... you did it again. User:Staeckerbot/Suspiciousbox is being used as a template on the list page, so you should edit the listing, not the box. If you want to remove an image from the list, just edit User:Staeckerbot/Suspicious images and remove the particular line which calls the template with the image that you're concerned with. If you actually blank Suspiciousbox, this will blank all listings, which we don't want. Staecker11:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
White/Black people
Oh, I 100% agree about these articles being unencyclopedic, but it's been "voted" they are. They've been up for deletion a couple of times. I couldn't believe there would be such articles on an encyclopedia and made a big fuss in the begining. Oh well. Thanks for the offer of the back-up. I get a little heated about these subjects, just because they attract all kinds of strange attention. Me included. lol. Cheers! :) - Jeeny 9 August 2007 17:52 (UTC)
i added gordon brown to keep the article more up tyo date (he is current british priminister) but mainly to show a more representative picture of brits. With tony blair in, there were 2 brits with light hair and light eyes (john f kennedy included), so i added a dark haired and dark eyed brit, as about 30% of brits have dark eyes and most brits have dark brown hair anyway, only a minority have light hair. Most brits have either dark or mixed eyes and most brits have dark hair.
I think the german pictures might need to be changed to include a dark haired german aswell as most germans dont have blonde or light brown hair.
Im trying to iron out national stereotypes.
about the basque, by all means keep the photo of this person, i just thought the astronaut was more famous.
cheers.
germans
sure by all means change the german or austrian, but i think a dark haired and maybe dark eyed german or austrian should be included, again merley to iron out national stereotypes. germans and brits are not much darker haired than the french afterall and yet the french person chosen has dark hair.
Your approach sounds very reasonable. As I say on talk, I am not altogether opposed to celebrities. WP:UCS. Makka Sagaipova, but not Tom Cruise, Margaret Thatcher or Saddam Hussein. I do hope you can further improve the collection, but I guess I got tired of the task: it's difficult enough in itself, but the bickering by all sorts of ideologists that comes with it makes it near-impossible. dab(𒁳)13:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
let me add that I am not opposed to galleries in general either. But any gallery with a claim to encyclopedicity will need to annotate each image, at least with the area or ethnicity of origin of the person depicted. dab(𒁳)13:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
an alternative would be using mugshots of Wikipedians who are willing to reveal their ancestry (Category:Irish Wikipedians). There is some room for debate regarding WP:V here, but I am sure we can get some good images in this way -- have a look at commons:Category:Wikipedians.
Let me add that I am intrigued by your self-description-by-userboxes: not that I'd agree with everything you say there, but I'm definitely with you regarding the 'beer' and the 'speak plainly and honestly' parts. We need more of both, but especially of the latter :) dab(𒁳)15:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikimedia Commons
If you haven't used Wikimedia Commons before, it can be a little confusing. You can find information at commons:Commons:First steps. Briefly; you want to go to commons:Article and recreate the gallery there, and then link to the Commons gallery using {{Commons}}. If the images are stored locally here at en:, you'll need to upload them to Commons first. While this may sound like extra effort, Wikimedia Commons has the advantage of allowing every project to use the media stored there, and is increasing.ly set up to handle searching and rendering media more efficiently than any of the text-based projects. Unfortunately, I'm remarkably busy at the moment; otherwise I'd pitch in and help with the particular article in question. You could ask the person who tagged the article to lend a hand if there are a lot of images to move over or if the process is confusing. Jkelly16:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:Monica B 2.jpg
Image Copyright problem
Thank you for uploading Image:Monica B 2.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Misplaced Pages takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.
It seems that some of the other editors have ceased any discussion and are blindly reverting any edit that I add. They have formed some kind of a cartel. I think this is counterproductive for the article. I am open to discussing the edits. Ramdrake has indicated that he has retired from[REDACTED] and so has Jeeny, so I think you are the only neutral editor who is left.Muntuwandi23:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
black and white
hi. (1) I agree with you about no quid pro quo, taking each article on its own terms. (2) I do not believe that anything I wrote on the Talk:White people page (or any page) has ever implied that I think an article should be perfect. I doubt that that is possible, and the very fact that this is Wikipedia means that all articles are always works in progress. That means that no article is ever "finished" so obviously no article will ever be perfect. But the fact that every article is constantly being worked on/in progress should mean that every article is betting better and that was all my comments were meant to address: ways to make the article better. However, if you are speaking purely of standards, of ideals, I do think that our standards should be very high. What makes Misplaced Pages different from Encyclopedia Brittanica is what makes a free-enterprise economy better than a planned (and centrally regulated) economy: an economy in which everyone is free and competing to be better will lead to superior products. It is also the idea behind open-source software like Linnux versus somthing like Microsoft: thousands of people working freely and constantly trying to make something better will do a better job than a hundred engineers following some manager's directive. But whether you believe in open-source or Microsoft; a free-enterprise system or communism, surely people's goals are the same: to create something better. I would hate it if engineers at Boein thought that it didn't matter if their work wasn't "perfect" - what would happen to the American air industry (and, would I be willing to fly)? We expect the people who make our cars and computers to do the best they can; we expect the best possible product affordable. We shouldn't settle for anything less here. Misplaced Pages articles are very often among the first five or ten google hits for any topic; it is becoming an internationally recognized brand like Toyota or Sony; hundreds of thousands if not millions of people turn to it for knowledge. We shoulld give them the best we can. And: I really sincerely do not believe that several editors taking time to read books in a library or look through journal articles is at all onerous. It takes time and effort but still nothing compared to the effort that goes into most goods that are in high demand! It is a sad day for America (or England or wherever most editors are from) when people who want to write encyclopedia articles thinks reading book or journal article is just too much work! America ought to have the best education system in the world, not be second-rate or strive for mediocrity ... editors of Misplaced Pages (I think most are American) should reflect that, I think ... Slrubenstein | Talk23:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Jolie
Some are from the "Dark continent". Jolie had facial reconstruction? I don't really mind about removing her from the picture, until maybe a suitable replacement is found. Muntuwandi03:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi Kevin, I saw your posts and wanted to comment to you that just because someone is an administrator is not a good enough reason to be a qualified mediator. A lot of admins are very young -- not that there's anything wrong with that. I do agree with you that someone who is to mediate this situation have a broader life experience, and knowledge of WP policies. Another thing, I think it's better to NOT have an admin to act as mediator for they have other issues to deal with, blocking, moving, vandals, etc. Mediation groups, or members, are supposed to know how to mediate and know certain WP policies for content disputes. There should be full concentration on the case, without the other duties that admins have to deal with. JMO. See what I posted on the mediation project page for more on my opinion on this issue. Thanks! - Jeeny20:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, as per your request on the ROC talk page, I'll describe my views to you on trivia in general. I guess that's what you're asking for.
I got sucked into the issue months ago here when I saw an editor wipe out some fairly interesting material with an edit summary "removed trivia as per WP:TRIVIA". I reverted him, and pointed out that the guideline said "integrate, don't delete", but he was just dead set on getting rid of it, like too many other editors are.
I started studying the situation and saw how many editors deleted trivia left and right claiming the guideline supported them. And plenty more who deleted without bothering to say anything. A month later when Android Mouse Bot added {{trivia}} to thousands of articles, there was an upswell of support for trivia, and I tried to get WP:TRIVIA de-frocked, but was unsuccessful. I retrenched to just trying to change the line "Some trivia is especially tangential or irrelevant, and may not warrant inclusion at all." since it's an open-ended loophole: "integrate trivia", it says, "but delete anything irrelevant"... which is the entire trivia section, to some editors.
Although I got a few supporters in trying to change the wording (one of whom was Coppertwig), the deletionists watching the page wouldn't even tolerate even the addition of the line "However, Misplaced Pages has no standard for relevance." So I changed my focus and started work on the Relevance guideline. And yes, it does have to be a guideline, or else people won't let WP:TRIVIA defer to it on matters of relevance.
I actually support the overall thrust of WP:TRIVIA -- trivia lists are a crappy way to present information. But again, that bloody loophole is intolerable. And the deletion of trivia is in some ways worse than the deletion of complete articles, because the latter are at least subject to a debate (WP:AFD), but content can be deleted without any sign that it was ever there, unless you happen to have been watching the article.
What I've been trying to do here is assemble a reasonable standard on content that walks the middle line. Trivia shouldn't be an excuse for articles get disorganized, but I want to retain all content that can plausibly be shown to have some value, and give clearer ideas on how to integrate it, since WP:TRIVIA is very unspecific about how to accomplish that.
Those are my views on trivia, relevance, and on content in general. And those are my goals for the proposal as well. Equazcion is an "inclusionist", as am I, as are you, WikiLen, Coppertwig, and DGG. Of those who have expressed opposition to the proposal, only DGG has been willing to explain his objections and help strengthen the proposal's inclusionist foundations -- for instance, by spurring this edit: . The proposal still needs plenty of work in the "content" section, but the more people contribute, the more likely we can find the right ways to say things. We also need to include more language in defense of lists and list articles; they've been taking a pounding lately.
Like you, I'm wary of using examples; I tore almost all of them out after the first draft. The proposal won't work unless we can get it to say straightforward, sensible things in a general way, and I was trying to fix those remaining faults when you and WikiLen drove up in a hearse.
There is a chance here to strengthen Misplaced Pages's inclusiveness, and I hope, I just beg, that we can get past our differences -- or is it just a misunderstanding? I've never understood why you've objected to the proposal, especially when you've said complimentary things about it in the same breath.--Father Goose05:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I didn't mean to step on anyones toes. I can't agree to having some obscure manager of a multinational corporation as being representative of Welsh people though. I am Welsh and this person is totally unknown to me. There are certainly far better examples of Welsh people out there. How did such an obscure individual manage to get by such a vetting process I wonder. I'd suggest Tom Jones, Griff Rhys Jones or Catherine Zeta Jones as far more appropriate. I'll have a think about it and make a suggestion on the talk page. Thanks for the message. Alun17:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I put that picture up. I've been critisized for ahving too many politicians, I couldn't find a good picture of Tom Jones and Catherine is so heavilly identified as being hispanic at least in the US -- does she really typify a Welsh heritage? It seems to be damned any way you slice it. --Kevin Murray17:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I can't understand how Catherine Zeta Jones could be identified as Hispanic, it doesn't make sense to me. She's totally Welsh. She's from Swansea and became famous in the UK for acting in The Darling Buds of May on the telly. Take a look at her[REDACTED] entry. She also has an image on[REDACTED] that is copyright but states that it may be used if it is attributed, see Image:Zeta Jones.jpgTom Jones also has an image on the commons Image:Tom Jones 2005.jpg and any commons images may be used. Griff Rhys Jones also has a commons image Image:Griff Rhys Jones IOW cropped.jpg but he's probably not that notable outside of the UK. While the current Welsh person represented is clearly notable he is not very recognisable, even to his fellow countrymen. I don't want to fight over this so if you feel that it's good to represent people other than politicians and celebrities then I can understand this. Sorry if I cane over as brusque earlier, it was not my intent. All the best. Alun17:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I am posting this in reference to your post on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy). I have trying to get this serious issue across for along time now, but no one seems to be interested. May be instead of bundling those lists in I should go list by list and get them deleted. After the first few debates it would not be difficult to figure out most, if not all, the keep arguments, as well as the counter-argument. But, I guess that would go against WP:POINT. Well, after seeing somuch ignorance, while this silly lists proliferate, I'd rather igonre that policy and concentrate more on WP:BOLD. Please, advise. I am posting part of this to the policy discussion page as well. Aditya23:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Essay move
As discussed on the village pump last week, I'm starting to move essays to people's userspace if they haven't been edited by others (not counting typo fixes etc). Since there's a lot of pages in CAT:E, I'd appreciate some help. Other people suggested deleting some of the worse essays, or adding {{merge}} tags as appropriate; I'll leave that up to people's discretion. >Radiant<11:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Re: Your gallery question at the Village Pump
Hi KM,
I saw your question about galleries at the Village Pump and I agree with your position completely. I've added some galleries to articles myself, both pictures I've taken and lots of old postcard pictures I happened to find on eBay's Web site (see Jamestown, New York for example). I'm pretty sure, but not absolutely sure, that I'm improving articles with these, but I'd be opposed to any kind of a ban on gallery sections to articles. If you ever run into any conflicts over inclusion of a gallery section in an article, please feel free to ask me to join in forming a consensus, and if I'm not extremely busy, I'll try to help. I can't guarantee I'll agree with anything, of course, but I'm generally pro-gallery.
I've been hesitant to upload images to WikiCommons, where the concept of gallery pages won't be a problem, because the stated purpose of that site is to share pictures. The old postcard pics I tend to upload (along with the pictures I'm beginning to take) tend to be for locality articles (South Norwalk for instance). I don't expect that most of these pics would ever be wanted outside of Misplaced Pages. That makes me worry that WikiCommons might decide to delete them someday. If you have any opinons on that, I'd love to hear read them. Noroton03:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I think you should take advantage of present changed circumstances to readdress the split of the article if this is what you want. As a european (who incidentally frequently visits UCB) I find it in excruciatingly bad taste and quite unscientific. The separation into two different articles as Slrubenstein has suggested could
solve many of these problems and produce good and instructive articles into the bargain. Cheers, Mathsci21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Policy and guideline modification
Perhaps I ought to have been more clear about my own standpoint. My comments on Misplaced Pages talk:Avoid trivia sections were meant to illustrate the problems or inaccurate impressions which arise when the expectations or notions inexperienced editors butt up against established policies and guidelines. Sometimes where such a conflict occurs, the response from such an editor is along the lines of, "I think Misplaced Pages should work in this particular way, but the long-established guideline/policy says it ought to be that way. The policy needs to be fixed, so that it conforms to my view of what Misplaced Pages ought to be."
The solution to this problem isn't to make it easier or faster to adopt, repeal, or modify Misplaced Pages guidelines or policies. Rather, it is to continue to provide assistance and guidance to new editors to help explain why many of our policies are the way that they are. It may be appropriate to include more reasoning and explanation in the bodies of some Misplaced Pages policy documents. It could be helpful to assist these users in finding resources like the Help Desk or the Village Pump.
On relatively rare occasions, a policy or guideline may require massive overhaul or repeal. In general, our systems work passably well under such circumstances. As a rule of thumb, the larger the effect of a proposed change, the wider the consultation required to assess community sentiment and to be able to make a change 'stick'. For something like repealing a guideline (on Trivia, say) that would affect thousands of articles, very broad discussion would be required—and such a suggestion is unlikely to succeed. Help:Modifying and creating policy is a good primer for editors interested in making policy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I take it you have seen the history of this issue? The older version kept getting tested because it isn't clearly written. The newer version remained in place for six weeks, stable and uncontested. Radiant moved it back to the much older language, including, e.g., "Essays tend to be opinionated." Well, yes, but this is not a definition. Anyway, obviously it is in need of discussion. Discussion is also at Wikipedia_talk:Policies_and_guidelines#Problem_with_wording ... Kenosis20:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know of many templates that are designated as policies or guidelines :) The intended role of this template that you created (please correct me if I'm wrong) is to mark the designation of a Misplaced Pages page as disputed; however, this function is already covered by {{disputedtag}}. Would you mind if I redirected your template one to the other one, or if you WP:CSD#G7'd it? If there's something I'm missing about the role of this template, though, please fill me in! Happy editing, Gracenotes § 03:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Essay
Thank you. I've placed some musings on the POL talk page. I believe I'm in favor of either heavily rewording the essay bit, or getting rid of it entirely. >Radiant<09:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
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"having an expectation of constraining behavior where it is a major departure from expectations"
Perhaps I should have used clearer wording: the mass merge proposal appears to be rejected, so there's no point to putting up merge tags. If you want to readd them, then fine, I won't revert it, but I think the discussion has shifted away from merging into just editing them to be more concise and perhaps merging one or two of them individually. --tjstrftalk00:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I might've done that but I think it is notable, certainly in Israel where there have been many references to it by reliable sources - maybe I'll have some free time soon to add them. Yonatan00:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Boy are you a trooper even for trying! It will take me some time to sort out what is going on there and I don't feel ready to comment there. I wonder whether the red ink editors are not sock-puppets, but it is just a feeling and I have no reason to make an actual accusation. There seem to be many arguments going on: can you pinpoint for me one or two very specific issues I could comment on? In the meantime, there are two other editors who I trust and I think you can trust them to comment constructively here: User:Stephan Schulz and User:Jpgordon. I suggest you leave for them the same message you left for me. Slrubenstein | Talk17:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
There is, in my opinion, Original research on the article/(s). I maintain that Misplaced Pages requires that we state what scholars said - it's not a place where Wikipedians should speculate "Why so many Jews were Bolsheviks." Thanks. --Ludvikus00:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Bolshevics
Please don't confuse "third opinion" with "mediation". The opinion was asked about a very limited issue: inappropriate page move. I have been repeating multiple times: I have no interest in article content and don't want to discuss it now. One has to resolve one conflict at a time, otherwise talk turns into a mess. `'Míkka18:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Mikka says we need articles like Russian alcoholism. I deduce from that (in the context of his remarks) that he also believes we need an article on Irish alcoholism. I imagine that, from your Irish-sounding name (and self-image on your Homepage) that you would have an appropriate personal response to that. Whichever way your reaction goes, I suspect it will bear some fruitful and productive consequences. Cheers & the Best to you, Boatsman of the Seven Seas, I am Ludvikus00:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Notability of religious figures
A question came up on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism about notable religious figures. I understand you put the rejected tag on the proposal. I'd like to know more about your decision. Some things that puzzle me:
WP:IDONTKNOWIT makes the point that awareness of notability sometimes depends on field of interest and Misplaced Pages:Notability recommends using {{expert-subject}} when verifying non-notability. Given that this proposal is about religious figures, it would seem that those who study religion (i.e. the participants in religion projects) would have something useful to contribute to the question of (a) whether or not this policy proposal is well formed and (b) whether it should be stand-alone, merged into WP:BIO, or eliminated as redundant. There are at least 34 religion projects listed in Category:WikiProject Religion. Which projects were notified of this discussion? Of a pending closure? I can't find anything on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Judaism page and I read the page fairly regularly (of course it might be there and I missed it).
The rejected proposal was accepted even though only one of the participants in the prior discussion affirmed the rejection proposal; (as the one who closed it, you will forgive me if I recuse you from the discussion. Also you only expressed a preference for reject over historical, but expressed no explicit opinion about the merits of the proposal). Did you see a consensus and why? As I see it, this person's opinion is not representative of the discussion either before or after. There are a wide range of opinions and solutions presented including 3-5 in favor and 3-5 with no explicit vote:
User:Shirahadasha feels that notability may not extend outside of their religious community and the terms of the community may not be the same as the general population.
John Carter, User:Assize accept but feel the proposal needs reworking and they each invest time in writing alternate proposals (which shows a certain degree of commitment to their position).
User:Jeepday, User:DGG feel that WP:BIO should cover all religious figures because they will meet reference test.
User:Mr.Z-man feels criteria 1 and 4 are redundant. 2 and 3 are unnecessary (appearing in scripture is notable by definition). 5 cannot be determined without OR. User:UnitedStatesian concurs.
Misplaced Pages doesn't make decisions by vote count, but rather the strength of the argument.
At least two of those rejecting the proposal do so based on the quality of the criteria. This issue is addressed by two users who provide alternate proposals. We will never know whether or not these new proposals would satisfy the objections of User:Mr.Z-man and User:UnitedStatesian since the proposal was marked as {{rejected}} before they had a chance to respond.
The second reason was redundancy. Of those that express clear rejects, none are members of religion projects (at least as evidenced by their user boxes or categories. This is an important issue and bears discussion. But until members of one the religion projects agrees, I would be inclined to see it only as a discussion point. WP:IDONTKNOWIT and common sense would suggest that those who are not actively studying religion are less likely to understand the difference between a religious community's definition of notability and that of the general public.
It is not about a vote nor about persuasive arguments; it is about demonstrating that the consensus of the WP community supports a policy or guideline either directly or through practice. This has not been the case on religious figures. Despite having some support from the participants in the discussion, this proposal only reflects the opinion of a tiny minority of the millions of WP contributors. Policy and guidelines are purposefully difficult to implement at WP, or else we'd be drowning in personal opinions labeled as policy or guidelines by energetic editors. Despite your hard work and good ideas, the proposal did not gain traction, but that is typical of proposed guidelines. Kevin Murray11:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I did not work on the proposal at all - though I would have liked to. I didn't even know about it until well after it was closed. Furthermore, my concern is that the proposal was not given either sufficient time or exposure to make a determination of whether or not it had gained traction.
Based on my reading of the arguments, there was no consensus (yet) that could be used as a basis for closing. As for the proposal representing a tiny minority - we can't know that unless the proposal is well publicized, which this clearly was not. Finally, "tiny" is not a relevant reason for rejection when there is a risk of systemic bias by imposing a general standard on a topic that is of interest to a few. That risk makes it all the more important that we expose the topic and get a fair representation of voices and perspectives.
Also as a practical matter - we have 34+ projects that make assessments on religious figures - don't you think it might be reasonable for them to want a standard specific to their assessment process? The participants aren't all religious fanatics - some of us study religion academically and others of us (without academic backgrounds in religion) go to great lengths to avoid POV when writing on religion topics.
I have a hunch that you are a man who likes to get things done. Perhaps a month is a reasonable period of time to evaluate a proposal, but in this particular case I think it is not. September, particularly this September, is a very, very busy time for people who have religious interests. The Jewish holidays came early this year and occupied many of us throughout September. Professors of religion in secular institutions and Christians, Jews, and anyone in a tradition that provides religious education to children probably had their hands full with getting their respective educational programs off the ground.
Best, Egfrank12:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC) (PS I've a temporary watch on your page - to keep the conversation flow clear lets continue it here)
Thanks for your third opinion. Yeah, I agree that there is subjectivity in selecting some elements important enough to be described over others. I'm unsure what you mean by "reviewing the song rather than just reporting the facts." I'm confident that everything is pure description, or at least, as you say, within "the normally accepted practices at WP." The article is about to be GA reviewed and it would be a shame to see my work disrespected /quick-failed because of that tag. As an outsider, per the third opinion process, are you able to remove it?
Of course, if you have any specific constructive comments relating to how the article could be improved, I'm happy to address them. Cheers, The JPS22:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I am asking you to protect the current reversion of the R&I article which reflects your compilation of the various articles, for a period of a week and then semi-protection for an additional two weeks. With the best of intentions too much has happened too quickly including additions in a time where we are trying to consolidate. As the massive amount of recent micro edits was impossible to evaluate, I've reverted to your lat version. We really need some time to evaluate and form a plan. I like the KISS overview approach, but this is an emotionaly charged topic and there will be no clear path. Thanks! --Kevin Murray09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I see Guy has already protected the page. I think it's important to point out that while I tried not to duplicate any material when merging the articles together, there are some sections which significantly overlap; there are two sections on stereotype threat, for example. I would encourage people to keep chopping and changing things around to see how it looks, though in draft copies if not everyone's happy with it being done to the main article. --bainer (talk) 10:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Race and intelligence/backgound
{{subst:nn-warn-Another detailed article on same subject Race and intelligence already exist. User can contribute there. Other expert users can verify importance of contribution from this user. Articles related to race-intelligence are sensitive.|Race and intelligence/backgound}}
Kevin, thanks for being reasonable about my reversion! I can see you're doing important work (there are lots of stale proposals out there), and I hate reverting, but this proposal is really only just beginning. You might like to take a look at the test wiki, as well as this recent article in New Scientist. Cheers, Walkerma02:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Hey you recently posted a message on MoritzB user page. I thought I would inform you that he was blocked indefinately a few days before you posted your message as a result of his dispicable right-wing racism on wikipedia. Yours on the left Realist212:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi. In situations where I contact contributors to an article to stimulate participation, I generally try to pick arbitrary but objective criteria such as has contributed in the last X-months. That is why I contacted Moritz, not because I agree with his politics. One of the great things about WP is that the majority of contributors bring us to center on most issues. But even the most polarized among us often brings some good to th project if we can endure the uglier issues. Cheers! And keep up the good academic work. --Kevin Murray15:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
R&I
Hi. I'm satified that the section we are working on is good enough to enter to the article, but I would have like to see broader participation if just for people to say it looks OK.
Ug. I know, me too. I wish more people would jump in and say something. Post a note on the R&I talk page that today is the "last chance" for this section and then we should move on, or else this will take forever. Can we get a mod to put the new section in?
Sorry, but after reviewing, I just can't see it. Too much primary sourcing, too little independent material used. I think maybe there will be an article to be written in a few years, but especially on a living person bio, should wait for substantive independent sourcing. Perhaps better to write about his blog? As to the refs, I think the AfD participants should see where the sourcing is purported to be from.
On an entirely unrelated note, there's a bot that archives talk page posts after they go stale. Pages this large can be really hard on dialup or slow-broadband users. I've used that bot for a long time and it works great. Seraphimblade16:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The Minnesota Public Radio spot looks like a claim of notability, but not the PC World one. Can you provide evidence of the reliability of the comixtalk site? Corvus cornix16:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that comixtalk looks like it's independent of the subject, I just don't know if it's considered reliable. I guess I'd probably go with a weak keep. I'll go over and do that now. Corvus cornix17:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you need to remove the references to his website and comix. They are most certainly allowed. You can quote from people's posted resumes, and you can quote from people's online biographies, and you can directly quote from movies and books. I am going to restore them. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )17:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Autobiography is about writing a Misplaced Pages article about yourself and using your own unpublished memories as a source.
I wish I could help, but I'm seriously under educated when it comes to WP:BIO. User:Alientraveller has been working on some WP:BIO articles, you might want to ask him to look over the article. I know that it is a lot easier to identify sourced information if you use in-text citations, it helps keep the original research out of an article. But, as far as determining whether the sources there are reliable enough to warrant an article, I don't know because I'm not that familiar with BIO, or comic artists. If they talk about his accomplishments, then that's a good sign. BIGNOLE (Contact me)17:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Kev. I've given my considered careless and casual thoughts, and I enjoyed doing it, so thanks for bringing that to my attention. I don't feel strongly enough about the issue to vote delete (or more correctly merge), but that is certainly the way my thinking was going. It seems to me that the webcomic is the notable thing, and so it would be appropriate for the author to be discussed within the comic's article. If he creates another notable comic that would be the time to split him out into his own article - but for now, it seems possibly a bit too much. Though, as I said, I'm not strong on this view. Many regards SilkTork *SilkyTalk19:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Seriously...
Archive your talkpage man! You must have the longest talkpage in the history of talkpages. This talkpage will become legendary - but it may burn out a few dial-ups in the process! SilkTork *SilkyTalk19:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Just be aware that you have to have reliable sources to write a bio from. There may be plenty of reliable sources for the comic, but not for the person drawing it. Corvus cornix19:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Mitch Clem
Yea, AfD is a busy place. Yes, we are all pressed for time and merging or adding cleanup tags for {{Tone}} tags is not always done when they should be. Then you have people making suggestions that it is OK to add 3,000+ unneeded articles and people wonder why we have problems and not time. For the record, I'm not the best bio person which is why I did not comment on the nomination, yet. But as you noticed, I did some trivial cleanup and maybe my edit comment will help improve the article so that it is less objectionable. Vegaswikian19:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Mitch Clem
You asked for my opinion; sorry it took me a few days. Basically, yes, I think the guy is probably notable enough for an article, there are several independent sources. However, the article uses self-published blog entries way too much, it needs to be cut back. Mangojuice15:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Titanic
Hi there Kevin. Apart from your having more hair and probably more money, you and I share a startling amount. German-Irish, military buffs, the list goes on. I also hold a Master's Licence and was a senior merchant marine officer for many years. I have found this is not always an advantage in naval Wiki work, often you have to let "sources" prevail, even if you know quite positively that they are wrong. Titanic is an example, there is much uneducated speculation around, and it has found its way into respectable publications. But let's give it a try! Rumiton02:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the invite, Kevin. If I am over there I'll certainly take you up on it. Have a great boating weekend. Rumiton13:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Mitch
Well, it looks like a reasonable article to me, but I think the problem is that it has so many self-referential sources that this appears to drown out the sources that aren't self-referential. I can see why people could interpret this as a vanity piece even though it isn't one. Perhaps it's possible to combine some of those source entries. HTH! >Radiant<12:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Sailcloth stats
Check your spelling on the PNG Image:Sailclothfibers.png - should be "Statistics", but is currently "Statisitcs"
Snori02:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I have replied to you over at Talk:Rush Limbaugh. In my mind, this whole situation is a big misunderstanding. At first I am reverted (by mistake, I think). When I try to correct it with a more complete edit summary, along with a message on talk, not one editor deigns to even leave a meaningful edit summary. They all just keep reverting me, thanks to a sort of hive-mentality. So far you are the only one who is willing to talk about it. Thanks, 71.182.215.210 (talk) 13:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
In response to your reply on my talk page, the words were added as a partial revert of edits by 71.7.218.110 who deleted the word stupid, from a direct quotation. In addition he/she softened language which was directly supported by the references provided. Honestly, please see the revision history before charging me as a vandal. I did use edit summaries. By the way, I don't like being told to register so I can gain credibility: Misplaced Pages allows for anonymous contributions. I believe it is clear that I am trying to improve the article. 136.142.124.179 (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)71.182.215.210 (talk) 14:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Should all the other category levels be changed as well? (I.e., Television show to Prescription drug addiction?) I don't think these were supposed to be under the Rush Limbaugh show caption. 15:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.182.215.210 (talk)
Hi Kevin, thank you for your comment on the Veeramanidasan talk. I would like to clarify on your statement on "Ownership". Please take note im merely an initiator of the mentioned wikipage & ive been maintaining the information, picture, reference all the while infact its still under progress. A person suddently comes up claiming he is the actual ancestor of the mentioned wikipage and said he have the all rights to modify. The wikipage is of a living person (a noted devotional singer/musician). My stand point is simple, im not claiming ownership of which ever wikipage that i initiated. Im only asking for solid proof for the irresponsible modification with the claim of rights to modification. Hope you dont get confuse with my statement on the talk page. Im only preserving & maintaining the neutrality of the wikipage, since someone came in and make a claim, i left no choise rather then to defence my standpoint. --Killerserv01:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you actually explain what you think is wrong with the Rationale section? The discussion on the talk page is about a separate issue and does not apply to the wording of the Rationale section that you keep deleting. —Centrx→talk • 22:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I oppose any addition to a guideline or any additional guidelines which adds bulk without adding clarity. While I don't specifically dispute that veracity of the section, I see no additional clarity to offset the potential confusion. --Kevin Murray22:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
RMS Titanic
I see no reason why my recent edits to the RMS Titanic page were removed. Perhaps I am wrong, but I am under the impression that ANYONE can edit pages, and as long as the edits are pertinent and accurate, there should be no reason to remove such edits. I would think you would be happy someone is taking this page seriously and contributing accurate information. I have read other comments on your discussion page and this same problem appears to happen frequently. I will continue to contribute accurate and pertinent information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadow2700 (talk • contribs) 03:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Removing IP Address?
I made a mistake and edited a page in a browser window that was not logged in.
As a result, my IP address appears in the History for that page.
I do not like this at all.
Is there any way I can remove this?
Thanks a lot!
Prignillius (talk) 05:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Kevin, I accepted your apology over at AN/I. That is all I ever wanted ;-) I too looked at who you were prior to opening the issue... and noticed a number of similarities as well. Both of us are conservatives and I noticed your numerous Barnstars... so I am more than eager to let bygones be bygones and move forward.Balloonman (talk) 20:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
How to fix the Additional criteria section
Hi Kevin. Do you think you could spare a moment comment on this issue?
Thanks for your kind words the other day. Yes, for now I'm an occasional contributor, and I expect to continue, but perhaps not with the enthusiasm I formerly did. Marc Shepherd (talk) 15:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Re Episodes
Well, the {{historical}} template includes the line about consensus being unclear. It shouldn't be marked as an essay, because it shouldn't be followed the way it's written. I suppose rejected is okay too, but since it was used at one point, my preference would be historical. I(talk)22:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Citizenship and nationality guideline proposal
I reverted your edit to the 'Citizenship and nationality' guideline proposal, which you marked as 'rejected' and described as 'dead' in your edit summary without justification. Please note that if you do not agree with a proposal, the appropriate response is to explain your reasons for disagreement on it's talk page. Given that this proposal is only a week old, and that just two people other than myself have commented on it (one against, and one in favour), it is obvious that no consensus has emerged either way. – SJL14:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
R & I
Hello, Kevin. I think it might be a good idea if you actually made a general statement about editing on the talk page of the article about the consensus on editing. I could not find anything. I think if you started a new section with such a statement, that would be helpful. Then in the spirit of that statement, you could revert my two words yourself, but not the three wikilinks which have all been discussed. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 22:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd be glad to provide some sources discussing the function of kindergarten as "obedience" training:
This is from the National Educational Association, which helped design the modern American school system. It reads: "Perhaps the most important lesson of the kindergarten is obedience; obedience to law..."
Or from this textbook on teaching elementary schools: "Disorderly primary grades make troublesome pupils for later grades." and discusses the importance of the teachers preserving the respect of authority in their students.
And this one might be considered a bit biased, but I threw it in there because it is nevertheless informative:
And like I said on Torc2's talk page, I think that any person who has been through kindergarten will remember being required to raise their hand to speak, ask permission to go to the restroom, walk in lines, etc. This is not POV, it is just the reality that nearly every kindergarten student( in the United States at least) has to deal with. There is no doubt that obedience is one of the central lessons of most kindergarten programs, and I feel that this deserves some mention.
Hello
Why did you revert the change I made to Race and intelligence? I see in you edit summary you said you were reverting 'undiscussed' changes. But both SLRubenstein and myself seemed to be in agreement that the word 'caste' was inappropriately used there, and you yourself added nothing to the discussion about it on the talk page. The article is horrid enough as it is, so surely cleaning up non-controversial terminological inaccuracies is hardly a big problem. (the 41.* person) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.243.229.97 (talk) 21:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
No, it is you who are subverting the processes here with your constant and persistant POV pushing at several core pages of WP. You seem to have become a virtual single purpose editor and make little contribution to the actual content of the encyclopedia. I think that you should really take a good look at your performance at WP and stop slinging about accusations of edit warring and improper conduct. --Kevin Murray (talk) 16:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Heh, I don't add as many articles as I used to, but I still do so, you know . :-) So much for single-purpose editing.
POV-pushing applies to the main namespace, not to policy maintenance and debates. I have been maintaining policy for quite a while now, after having learned some of the ropes from mentors dating back to the founding of wikipedia.
I am quite familiar with the policies on edit warring and on consensus, having participated in their writing, and I'm pretty sure you're in violation of both, at the moment. Would you care to discuss why I think so, or would you prefer to continue on your current path? --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Kim, we have a history of disagreement, and are unlikely to find a middle ground here as I absolutely dispute the entirety of you last three comments. We have both stated our cases at the pertinent pages; others are now involved and I suggest that we each stand down and let the process continue with other participants. --Kevin Murray (talk) 16:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
That would take me out of the process of policy maintenance, something I have done for years. On the long run I would have to refuse. On the shorter run, however, it is almost always possible to find some kind of agreement between all participants. Would you like to request mediation, for instance? --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)Typically mediation works best when people *are* still holding a civil discourse, and would like to continue doing so :-)
Very simple. In this case a legit use of another language wiki added interwiki links once their language wiki had a corresponding policy page. We don't have single logon implemented yet so they don't typically have user names across the whole of language space, and end up anon on en. This is a common practice. More to the point you should not revert things just because you do not understand them; you need to check the changes first. --BozMotalk21:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Another editor has added the "{{prod}}" template to the article Cal Yachts, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not and Misplaced Pages:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the {{prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. BJBot (talk) 23:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I have now returned from the Bay Area, which was a little rainier than I had hoped for. I am currently being personally attacked by Jagz on the talk page of R&I for upholding consensus. He has said he would report me for vandalism for removing a confusing template that he chose to display. He has also decided that if a proposed content change on the talk page receives no answer in 2 days, that means it has been approved. I find that he is rejecting the scholarly approach advocated by Slrubenstein which I thought had been agreed upon. It requires patient and hard work; from what he writes Jagz doesn't seem to take such an approach seriously. He accuses me of debating for the sake of it. It seems that the lack of honest and careful scholarship is one of the main problems with the article. If you object to his editing methods, please could you reason with him yourself? He has compressed and wikilinked the Stereotypes section, which I did not object to, although he did not properly ascertain consensus. His proposed summary of the IQ gap of Rushton, however, is worrying to me: the presentation does not seem to be properly balanced as far as I can tell and no context is provided. Cheers, Mathsci (talk) 10:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Revert on WP:CONSENSUS
I noticed the edit summary on your revert on WP:CONSENSUS. It's somewhat ironic; the way that we find consensus for changes is by making them, so we can't expect to have consensus for edits before they are made (see WP:BOLD). It may be that you have specific concerns about the edit, but your message on the talk page and edit summary come across as resistance to editing in general, rather than to the specific edit being made. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
"(1) fewer rules, (2) clearer rules, and (3) stable rules." I completely agree with (1) and (2). I find it very strange (but not surprising, in the end) that the Misplaced Pages:List of policies is so long, given that we have WP:IAR anyway. As for (3), the entire wiki system is designed so that things are not stable. Even getting the stable versions extensions enabled is contentious, because editing is a foundation principle. Moreover, our policies are not written with stability in mind. When someone writes a policy, they expect that it will be edited mercilessly and updated as consensus changes. If we were going to have stable policies, we would need to greatly change the way that text becomes policy in the first place. The policy documents already in place gained consensus under the assumption that any problems that arise in their wording can be easily remedied. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
My view of the project namespace is that it is a kind of small encyclopedia (or wikipedia ;-) ) about what consensus exists on[REDACTED] at any point in time. Similar guidance applies to this mini-wikipedia as applies to the main one. Some guidance doesn't work though. Like I would love to be able to make everything in the project namespace verifiable, but unfortunately, most of that information is in people's heads.
Also, since my first interest is in making as clear descriptive documentation as possible, I get very frustrated when people try to treat the project namespace as a place to make rules, and try to block other people from "changing the rules". In reality, it is true that some people abuse the project namespace in that fashion, but that it is not really intended to function that way. The best way to make sure it functions correctly is by setting a good example. --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Wait a minute, you actually want policies to be more clear and concise? Wow. Don't you know? Here's my favorite example of what is possible, if there is mutual trust,and people work together, and use consensus. See the talk page for WP:SR to see how rapidly that came to fruition.
So now what I want to get done on Misplaced Pages:Consensus, is to document the process that actually leads to such pages, as well as pages in the encyclopedia itself. We should be able to do so in a clear concise way.
I haven't done maintenance at the consensus page in a while, so I started out by placing several basic core points in a separate section. This tends to get the juices flowing in lots of wikipedians, and several folks were indeed gleefully (wiki-editing is FUN! :-) ) gearing up to do a wholesale refactor (as they have told you), until you went and put the process on hold. :-(
I'm worried that you don't actually trust the process, or me :-(
Note that no, this is not spillover, see also my comment here. I've been maintaining that particular page for quite some time. I just hope I haven't started to feel like it's WP:OWNer ^^;; --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The structure of[REDACTED] is a very interesting one. Hmm, do you think that that my way of working makes[REDACTED] into an anarchy, or that I am old fashioned, or that[REDACTED] dynamics have changed over time, or ... could you specify what makes you distrust the consensus process? --Kim Bruning (talk) 05:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The process for editing articles is different from the process for editing policy, though the major differences are not really documented very well. (for instance WP:V is unfortunately not usable, though I wish it was.)
You seem to prefer formal discourse, and strictly accurate wording. I have adjusted my writing to this preference where possible/appropriate, and will continue in this manner. --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Heh, we're both getting pretty heated. I have to admit I do actually have trouble discussing things with people who have a certain attitude about policy. There's apparently some fundamental concept that fails to get across, and both sides get utterly frustrated! It's probably my fault, but I'm not sure how to correct it.
Tell you what, to make up for it, if we ever meet IRL, I'll buy you a beer. (or, if in Egypt, a Root beer ;-) )
In lieu of sitting down with a person over a good pint of beer, I've had a lot of good experience talking with people over skype. It's not as good as meeting face to face, but at least you do get voice. Do you have a skype client? I'll send you my skype-id and so over email. --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC) This does not void my offer for a good IPA at some later date, of course :-)
Your position on a number of issues is not entirely unique (nor is mine), so it might be useful to learn the reasoning behind both sides. On-wiki discussion apparently isn't working, but hopefully voice might work! --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, I'd like to edit the consensus page soon, and I'd rather try to pre-empt long debate, and have you on my side instead. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 05:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello again. As we have not had the chance to have any real-time communications, we have now (predictably) come back to a collision course. I believe you have my phone number and other contact info? I can re-send it if you have lost it. The ball is in your court there.
Meanwhile, as we are arguing about Misplaced Pages:Consensus itself, I consider this something of a last stand to maintain wiki-procedures. I try to avoid conflict for as long as possible, but do not avoid it at all costs. In this case, (and with due respect for your own good intentions as well) if we cannot come to an understanding, I do intend to fight this out through Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. I hope we can stop short of that point! --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello , Thank you so much for trying to answer. To be able to negotiate with you, to find a compromise and ultimately to find consensus, I specifically need your own rationale for your actions. I'm looking for some kind of grounds for your actions that we can negotiate about.
This is different than what other people's reasons for their actions are, other people can speak for themselves! At the same time, I also think it is unfair to you for me to simply accept a concession without any form of rationale as well.
You have reasons for your actions, and that is what I am interested in. I would like to respect those reasons as best I can within my own framework of reasons. That's how I hope to be sure that my actions will have your respect and support in future.
Of course, a similar story also holds true the other way around, and it is also true for interactions with other people.
I try to discuss things with one person at a time, specifically those who have opposed my actions de-facto (as these are the people who I still need to find consensus with) . That makes you a very important person for me to talk with right now. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 01:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
'"OK Kim, how about this as a compromise?"
I don't know that it's a compromise, but it's going in an interesting direction. :-) It basically needs finishing. I've left some critical notes on the consensus talk page to that effect. I notice I've been a tad strict. I hope that's ok. --Kim Bruning (talk) 01:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I love flow charts! (Because I'm good at them). I spotted a couple of bugs and some room for refactoring. I left a note on the talk page and I hope you can fix them. (or, if this is simply the method that people use... don't fix them, and explain that on talk... that would be as interesting or more interesting.)
Right now I might edit, but on the other hand, I'd like to see full documentation of the method you are using to edit wikipedia. :-)
Sorry about the repeated points. I got caught in an edit conflict while still working on them and hadn't noticed. I just dropped what I was doing on the page, and proceeded to prepare a reply relevant to the new state of the discussion. Whenever you see (ec.) or (e/c), be suspicious that the text that follows might have some issues, but has been left for you as a courtesy or for reasons of completeness.
In this case, I was rechecking my work, and hadn't seen the chart change under me, you were that quick! :-). The newer points as posted refer to the newer chart and therefore may still be of some use, which is why I posted them after the edit conflict, rather than throwing them away. --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
When you made the edit about documentation, I noticed we don't really have a good (if brief) description on the consensus page at all. So reverted myself and created a new section on that topic, which was probably the right thing to do in the first place. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't looked closely at this for 24 hours or so; it seemed "your" version was a more radical departure from recent history. Per talk, I'd probably be happier with a non-consensus essay than an attempt at crafting a policy to please everyone. -- Kendrick723:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I reverted to that version, but that wasn't otherwise me; I haven't been messing with the tags here. I can't think about it too much more now as I'm off to my weekly poker game. I felted a guy (took all his money) last week when I shoved on a straight draw following a raise and a re-raise, and they gentleman who called was very upset at my action (especially as I made my draw) because he had flopped a set, and so was drawing to a full house. And he was right, I was way behind, but if I played all day long with the fear the guy across the table hit a miracle flop, I'd be paralyzed all the time. Which, if you followed any of that, is the same way I feel about writing policy with a mind to how all the baddies out there might use it to WP:GAME the system. You just end up paralyzed. So I'd tag this as an essay with an eye to possible promotion maybe somewhere down the line if it sinks in. But ain't really the one babysitting this guy, so I'll see what others think. -- Kendrick700:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Your recent edits
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 23:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Good evening, Kevin. Thank you for your wiki-email message. I've replied off-line. I hope that I wasn't too incoherent in the reply.
Would you be offended if I asked both you and Kim to take a day off from editing those pages and let the rest of us catch up? We all need some time to filter through and consider what you've both said so that the rest of the community can participate in the discussion.
Hello, Kevin Murray! I'd like to call your attention to the WikiProject Germany and the German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I hope their links, sub-projects and discussions are interesting and even helpful to you. If not, I hope that new ones will be.
The R&I article is being edited now. I did some reorganization of the sections. I think the focus for now is trying to improve what is there already. --Jagz (talk) 15:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I saw you thanked Octavian history. I cannot believe that he was suspended indefinitely by Gyrofrog, an admin who is abusing his powers and who has accused over 100 people of being a sock puppet. Octavian history spent an ungodly amount of time trying to improve wikipedia. Octavian history is a New York Times best selling author and I think he has decided to not waste his time with sick individuals like Gyrofrog who were harassing him every day. Meanwhile there are thousands of people who are vandalizing wiki every second and gyro decides to suspend a true scholar who cared about the preservation of wiki. I guess the world has turned upside-down. But I guess this is just a reflection of what Misplaced Pages really is. Unbelievable!--Wiki-user3728 (talk) 07:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello! I just wanted to tell you that I really appreciate your flowchart-work. An example of where I've used one of your illustrations in a tangential discussion is here.
I'm interested in what you will say and/or do, knowing this.
Obviously Ottava Rima is responsible for his/her own actions, but this person was apparently following your advice, or at least your recommended procedure.
Please contact me first in case you're considering anything ... really interesting. :-)
Note that chart 1 explicitly allows a user to edit first. Chart 1 does not justify reverting a person on the sole ground that they have made an edit, while chart 5b can be read to say that this is possible.
What I'm mostly trying to put across is that this documentation work does have actual consequences for people. Due to chart 5b being up, it will likely be difficult to correct this user's behavior, and they will likely be banned from the site.
I'm interested to hear what you propose to do in this particular situation. Zooming from global helicopter view to local action, are there any actions you and I can take to try to get this user to become a productive wikipedian? Once we do, we might be able to take our experience back to the global level, and document our procedure for future reference.
(as you can see, ultimately, I don't actually deal in theory ;-)
I do believe Ottava Rima has some inkling about 3O and village pump, but nevertheless, they are heading for a ban. If you think that educating this user about these two items will convince them to change their behavior, I will request for the talk page to be unprotected, and I will mail Ottava Rima that we will brief him/her, with the ultimate goal of getting the block lifted.
However, I am not yet entirely convinced that this would be the practical solution. Wouldn't discussing actions like taking things to 3O and VP actually end up convincing Ottava Rima of the righteousness of their behavior (and thus actually accelerate them being banned?).
Do you see any potential alternate approaches?
--Kim Bruning (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)It may not be possible to convince Ottava Rima to sufficiently alter his/her behavior to prevent the ban entirely, though it might be possible to improve their behavior and thus their lot to some extent at least.
<scratches head> Don't take this the wrong way, and not to put too fine a point on it, but aren't you effectively saying that... You don't understand the specific case enough to be able to comment, but you do audaciously presume to advise people on the general case?
Interesting response. Apparently our views on both the genesis and purpose of policy differ somewhat. At any rate, I see this as an opportunity to explore and possibly set community standards (aka. policy), and am explicitly inviting you into the loop so that you don't feel shut out at a later date. If it is truly your wish to decline, then I'll sadly accept that. --Kim Bruning (talk) 08:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Charles Murray
Considering a "political pundit" would be a political expert, and he is indeed a researcher in political science, I don't think it was much of a change. However, I agree that his political leanings should be left out of the article.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
mediating/moderating the discussion on race and intelligence
Hi Kevin Murray!
We thank you for uploading Image:Phot Permission Sherman.pdf, but there is a problem. Your image is currently missing information on its copyright status. Misplaced Pages takes copyright very seriously. Unless you can help by adding a copyright tag, it may be deleted by an Administrator. If you know this information, then we urge you to add a copyright tag to the image description page. We apologize for this, but all images must confirm to policy on Misplaced Pages.
No problem, this is a PDF of an email demonstrating the release of a photo to GNU> Have done the same for the email PDF. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I see you've worked on this article recently. I'm a little confused by the precise naming, I haven't been able to find any references to "Cattle Health Initiative". I can find "Cattle Health Planning Initiative", "Cattle Initiative" and "Cattle Health Planning Project", but not the actual article title. Now this is admittedly a pretty obscure thing to be bringing up, but what do you think, should the article be renamed? Thanks! Franamax (talk) 20:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree. It is not appropriate to cahnge names during and AfD, otherwise I ould have wanted to somehow make it clear and that it is a UK government program. I'd like to know a bit more about the scope of the program and perhaps look at broadening the topic. Cheers! --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, the AfD has been withdrawn, largely due to your commendable efforts, it would seem a rename can go ahead. Picking the new name is still a conundrum. Based on this, "Farm Health Planning Cattle Initiative" might be the official name, I haven't found an actual press release. Mentioning the country is a good idea, but there again, it is a UK government plan but the program seemingly only applies to England, as farm health is apparently devolved to the other Parliaments. No easy answers here. Cheers! Franamax (talk) 18:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the 3O about KXAN-TV. I am curious, though, about some of the facts in the article vs the facts in the reference source, plus the fact that the reference source is a blog entry and concerns a living person, which I am under the impression is a violation of BLP. I have in good faith and effort tried to find better reference sources and just really can't turn that much up. Not trying to pick a fight; I'd just like a little clarification for future use. Cheers. Paxsimius (talk) 23:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for them, and you were correct that that was a typo. Unfortunately, in addition to being a careless typist I'm apparently also a careless reader - while I thought that statements were to be a maximum of 1200 words, it turns out that they're supposed to be a maximum of 1200 characters, which means I've had to take the whole thing down pending some serious editing. Thanks again! Sarcasticidealist (talk) 18:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
"routine marking of obsolete proposals as rejected - feel free to revert"
And what gives you the idea that this proposal is obsolete (or rejected as the notice says)? Do you customarily go around marking proposals with 100% support as rejected without so much as saying hi on the talk page?? Kaldari (talk) 22:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I do routinely mark these obsolete pages as rejected. Rejected is a harsh term but it is the tag we use for proposals which have not been accepted. Please read the policy page on proposals. I typically prune old proposals each month or the list of proposals becomes clogged and worthless. If your proposal has died out you might want to advertise it at the Village pump or at related project pages. Good luck! --Kevin Murray (talk) 22:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
What gives you the idea that the proposal has "not been accepted" or is "obsolete"? Please explain. Per previous discussion on the proposal talk page and the fact that the conventions given in the proposal are merely descriptions of already well-established and non-controversial conventions which might not be obvious to new editors (and considering Misplaced Pages:SILENCE), I have changed the page to an official guideline. Kaldari (talk) 23:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I know that Misplaced Pages:Silence and consensus is an essay. I've only been an administrator on Misplaced Pages for 3 YEARS! Jeezy Creezy! And for your information, I have advertised it at related project pages, in case you didn't notice. There's no point advertising this on the Village Pump since only about 5 active editors on Misplaced Pages know anything about the Burmese language (and thus would be qualified to have an opinion about it). And also, this is not a Misplaced Pages "policy", it's a list of helpful guidelines. It describes already established conventions and provides valuable information to new editors who might be interested in editing articles related to Burmese topics. It's not about me trying to dictate rules to the rest of Misplaced Pages. Have some faith! Kaldari (talk) 23:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, having faith works both ways, and your status as an Admin holds no weight in this discussion. You could have just reverted the routine tagging and be done with it, but now you've made it an unpleasant issue. Just show a bit of support for tagging it as a guideline and be happy. Cheers! --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
My being an admin holds no weight in this discussion except that it should be a decent indication that I have rudimentary familiarity with guidelines, policies, and essays. Sorry to have made this an unpleasant issue, but I consider tagging things without discussion as rather unhelpful behavior. Also, I do not believe that guideline proposals are subject to any specific deadline for approval. If you believe that proposals need to be approved within a certain amount of time or marked as rejected, you should propose that as a policy. Enforcing your own arbitrary time limits, however, seems a bit unilateral. Kaldari (talk) 23:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Per the policy page: "A rejected page is any proposal for which consensus for acceptance has not developed after a reasonable time period. While our policies remain ambiguous it is left to us to determine what is reasonable. No consensus for acceptance was generated and there has not been discussion for some time; the page was tagged with the edit summary, "routine marking of obsolete proposals as rejected - feel free to revert." This is really much ado about nothing. I expect more from an Admin. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for the note. There's really nothing to be done. No ill will. No problems with Misplaced Pages. Just...ready to stop. Thanks again.--Eva18:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Technical 3RR vio?
I think we're all editing in good faith there, did you really do 3 actual reverts? If it's just slightly different edits, that's not 3RR, that's actually fine. If you're trying to work something out something complicated with Rhanyeia and I'm actually in the way, I'll take a step back 'till you're done.
No per my interpretaion I did not exceed the 3RR rule, but i would if I went further. She and I worked together in collaboration this morning but I edited her then you then you. Please see my message at the talk page. I'm off to crack open that IPA in your honor. I think that we've done some great work together today. --Kevin Murray (talk) 21:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I do take a few breaks from Misplaced Pages, as you can see...I am an administrator on another large wiki, and that takes up a good amount of my time, as well as real life work. I apologize for not answering faster. As for User:Gjenvick, I understand that I may have removed some of his or her links as I believed they didn't go by the WP:EL guidelines. If you would still like to speak to me regarding this issue, please do.
Sorry I didn't answer when I read the message first off. I am more than happy for you to act in any capacity in relation to the article.Londo0616:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi
FYI Your work here was good, I think it got it all going well. Maybe the section on editing could go back in, I guess it depends what happens with the flowchart. Cheers! --NewbyG (talk) 01:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean, "troubled"? And I think I can be admin in about 1,000 more edits. I love sluts and hot young women but don't think Misplaced Pages is myspace either. JeanLatore (talk) 02:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Dave Zirin 3O
Dave has wrote several articles defending bonds against accusations of steroids and repeatedly refuses to give a yes or no answer to a simple question: DO you think barry bonds has done steroids? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.94.0.250 (talk) 10:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
re: Harlem Heights
Hi Kevin. I'm familiar with MEDCAB although I've never submitted a formal request. On the rare occasion that I am in disagreement over an article, my usual plan is 3O and then MEDCAB, however nothing has ever gone that far. In this case, my first recourse was 3O, seeing as the current dispute is between myself a Trip Johnson and I was not party to the earlier confrontations. However, the user does seem to be in a number of disagreements with a number of editors across a number of articles–how would you suggest we proceed? Thanks. MrPrada (talk) 01:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Dennis Dechaine
The ostensible Misplaced Pages policy rationale for censoring the name of Sarah Cherry (which has been on the article since inception and was not put there by me) is that the name "was not widely disseminated". I addded a half dozen sources to the article, including the NY Times, Village Voice and a best selling book. I think it is safe to say this qualifies as "widepread dissemination". John celona (talk) 02:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I first looked in and offered a third opinion, but have decided to stick around and help improve the page as an editor. Neither of the other editors is a native English speaker, so if nothing else, at least I can help there. Since my participation makes this a three editor disagreement, mediation is the appropriate way to go. I do appreciate your input. When I stepped in, the two editors had become pretty polarized so there was not a lot of trust. I personally thought the latest call for a third opinion spoke more to the editor's frustration with his inability to push his POV than to any inability of the editors to eventually reach a compromise. Mmyotis10:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks ...
... and thanks! Hope you have been well too. What are the policy issues you have in mind? Many months ago I was heavily involved in an argument at NOR - I feel like I said my peace there, even worked on some compromise positions which were accepted - only later to be deleted - and frankly feel burned out there. And a few weeks ago I think I was involved in a lengthy discussion at V which ultimately went nowhere. I am not sure I have anything more constructive to add, but keep me posted! Slrubenstein | Talk10:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for noticing my somewhat-upcoming graduation. After changing majors a couple times, it's about time I finished up. I do want to go into business for myself after graduation, but I don't have any capital, so I guess I'll be looking for venture capitalists and angel investors. Wish me luck. Useight (talk) 17:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Is there any way you can full-protect the page for a couple of days. I am a new user so if you semi-protect I can't edit and the sockpuppets will run wild.
Eurovisionman (talk) 20:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Kevin, could you look at the talk page again. I'm just concerned about the sources overall. Also, the same BBC commentary is being used at For Life (Isis Gee song) and I would like your opinion on that as well. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Eurovisionman
Kevin,
I was very happy to see you intervene in the Isis Gee debacle, but I fear you might be manipulated by this use. Please note that this user is using legitimate-looking arguments to push his version of the article, which is quite clearly OR and POV. He is simply reverting any change to the article, referring to the editors as "sockpuppets" (do I need to prove to you that I am not? dunno who to anonymous editor is though, maybe this is an actual sockpuppet, though I doubt it), referring to "consensus" that did not take place, misuing references to substantiate his edits (i.e. he quotes a "reference" which has little to do with what he has written), and another user has questioned the validity of the BBC player reference (can't access the clip myself, I am not in the UK which is apprently required). On top of that, the user attempted to wipe clear his talk page after I placed a lenghty reply there.
I know a barely notable Eurovision Song Contest entrant might not be of utmost interest to you, but if you could take a look at the involved articles' and talk pages' histories, you could perhaps get a broader view of the issue.
Kevin, this user seems to be a veteran vandal to me. He clearly DOES know about our policies, he has been quoting their names from the very beginning but in a malevolent way. Since the article is of current interest, I'd see a block on it very appropriate - there are many parties interested in defamation of selected artists for various reasons just before the final. PrinceGloria (talk) 21:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
For sure, but I'd hate the article to contain pretty obvious attempt at defamation of a living person just because we hope for a good dispute. Please take a look at the discussions on the article's and user's talk page - I have explained why I find the edits inappropriate. I strongly believe the original version is a better one to start a debate from. PrinceGloria (talk) 21:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Kevin 1) I have done plenty of talking, Eurovisionman not that much, but a lot of editing, and I don't think there is anything he hasn't said yet 2) the only parties involved are myself, him and you - I clearly cannot agree with Eurovisionman, as he insist on his version beyond any discussion, and there is only you left. So, if you please, do decide. PrinceGloria (talk) 21:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
IP user seems to be blocked now, and per his modus operandi I'd actually suspect him of being Eurovisionman's sockpuppet if anything, used to purport his sockpuppet theory. PrinceGloria (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I sure will - need to get something to eat ;) In the meantime, you could also checkuser Eurovisionman just in case ;) PrinceGloria (talk) 21:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello - Regarding the new "references" section: There are no references to these items in the article. For instance, the "Sail Magazine: August 2004 pages 54 - 57" item. Also, the "Catalina Timeline" is really just a nice external link. I don't believe we need a "Notes" section that is contains inline references and a "Notes" section that contains items that could be distributed elsewhere... The inline refs should be under "References". E_dog95'22:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I do tons of work with referencing. I typically don't include items that aren't easily verifiable. So the inclusion of "Sail Magazine: August 2004 pages 54 - 57" as a bibliography item makes little sense especially since nothing points to it in the article. It hangs out there alone. The article really doesn't need a bibliography section. It looks like you've worked on the article for coming up on two years. Why now? I just think the items we have could be covered more simply as they stood. E_dog95'23:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You are the first editor. Your style prevails. My POV here is that the article reference has little value as it's not easily verifiable. I am finding new references that are. E_dog95'23:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
No longer working on the article. I don't see a reason to have both inline refs and "general" refs (the kind that aren't easily verifiable). Good luck & no need to respond E_dog95'05:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I thank you for showing interest in the article Drug Policy of Sweden and your work as 3-O. If I interpreted user Steinberger correct, he now accepts that the issues identified as important in the National Action Plan of 2006 are relevant to the article Drug policy of Sweden which reasonably also means that one can write on relevant statistics for these areas. I have added an additional source to the page that I absolutely should have included earlier. European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction: National report Sweden, 2006Dala11a (talk) 09:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Your dispute
Kevin I heard about this in LBC radio today. It was actually quite funny but sad. Some user has put wording in the entry to make it appear that Isis Gee came 2nd last when she came last and had a very bad performance. I have added my views of the entry and hope you can comment. Polishchick99 (talk) 21:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Hey Kevin-- I saw what you said in FMF's talk page & in his RfA, & I wanted to commend you on your well reasoned arguments. It is good to see good folks kicking around. --mordicai. (talk) 19:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
It looks like the opposition got what they wanted, and when their abusive behavior shows up in the future, they will be reported. I'm done with them (Regushee (talk) 15:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC))
Section moved to ATT Talk page - discussion Murray & Levy
Your note
A lot of work went into that text, Kevin, with lots of people participating over many months. It was accepted as policy, and was working extremely well, when Jimbo arrived to say he didn't like that WP:NOR was directed to it. We therefore had to have a WP-wide poll, which is a kind of silly thing to do because very few people knew the background or understood the issues, and Jimbo having said something negative about it meant we had an uphill struggle on our hands. Despite that, we got a majority in favour, but not enough to gain consensus. Therefore, the thing has become political, rather than only to do with policy, which is a great pity, but I think it means it was a lost opportunity -- lost for the foreseeable future. For that reason alone, I think the text needs to just be left as the summary it was. But if the effort to establish it as policy is to be revived, we need to respect the amount of work that went into it before, and also contact the people who wrote it to get their input before changing things wholesale. Alternatively, you could start an entirely fresh proposal. SlimVirgin17:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
We can't really tag it as failed, because it's an accurate summary of two valid policies. Jimbo's suggestion was that we regard V and NOR as policy, and ATT as a "canonical summary" of them, useful for people who want to see on one page what the policies say. So it's not failed, it's not a proposal, and it's not an essay. That's why we created a unique tag for it. SlimVirgin17:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
ATT had nothing to do with N. It was developed because people (especially new editors) were often confused about the difference between WP:NOR and WP:V, and were confused about the way "verifiability" was used, so we created one policy to replace those two. Essentially it is just those two policies on one page, plus using the idea of "attribution," instead of V. We also hoped to get rid of WP:RS by having an ATT/FAQ page, so that editors would have a one-stop shop. It's still used as a very useful summary, so I really see no reason to mess around with it — unless you're thinking of reviving it, but I'm not sure I'd advise that. SlimVirgin19:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Kevin, for your comment about privacy. As for the policies, I do agree they should be clearer, but it's very difficult to gain consensus for any change, except for tweaks here or there. SlimVirgin21:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Graphs
What software did you use to generate those two graphs at WP:VP (Policy) today? I want to use it to make a more fair version of the original graph I complained about. Thanks - Tempshill (talk) 03:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
ATT history
What do you find incorrect or needing rebutal? I am always willing to retract something I said, if I am in error... but at this point, I don't see that I am. I am tired of both sides in this debate mistating the facts about what occured in the past... so I thought it would be helpful to state what did happen. Blueboar (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Kevin... I need a reason beyond "because I asked you to." If there is seriously a problem with my history of ATT, tell me what it is. WHY do you want me to remove it? Blueboar (talk) 22:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry... I don't think you are trolling my talk page. Actually I think we are in very close agreement on goal... and are just disagreeing on how to get there. I posted the history because of a flurry of posts saying 'but we decided this a year ago'... I felt it was needed to explain that this was not decided "back then"... so we have to do so NOW. We need to determine the current consensus. In any case... I read your comment and it sums up what I said quite well. Blueboar (talk) 23:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
AFM
These seem at odds with Talk:Mya (unit), which I believe had consensus. The others all had pointers on their talk to that talk page.
Your edits:
2008-06-12T21:11:05 (hist) (diff) Annum (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:10:19 (hist) (diff) Byr (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:09:56 (hist) (diff) Bya (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:09:29 (hist) (diff) Mya (unit) (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:08:48 (hist) (diff) Kyr (no consensus to merge) (top)
2008-06-12T21:08:27 (hist) (diff) Tya (no consensus to merge) (top)
What is it you think was missing? LeadSongDog (talk) 04:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I was just clearing out the backlog of merge tags. These tags were old and I missed the discussion which was not labled specifically as a "merge" discussion, a limitation to a bulk process. If you feel that the mergers should happen just do it. There was plenty of time for discussion and objecion. Be bold and good luck. --Kevin Murray (talk) 14:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I figured as much. I must admit I've been somewhat intimidated about the mechanics of doing a multi-merge with such wide reach. I'd kind of hoped someone from a project would step in. Wishful thinking I suppose. LeadSongDog (talk) 02:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure how non-partisan the tagging of rejected is, especially as you voted that way. I don't think you should've unilaterally closed the debate (which, at 22-24, was nowhere near snowball territory) - that's why I undid you. Please don't do it again. Sceptre01:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I have also reverted your watering down of WP:N on the grounds that WP:V already stipulates that "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it".--Gavin Collins (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think we're done. 842U and some of the other folks have found a common cooperation, rather than finding, ground, in performing a large-scale merge that's been long overdue, so I guess it's now alrite!
While wholeheartedly recommending to close the case, I would also like to express my personal gratitude for your patience and bearing with us over its course, and conducting it with a perfect mixture of impartiality and common sense.
Also huge thanks for getting involved in the Isis Gee debacle as a by-product. You are definitely one of the most valuable and reliable contributors to the community. I feel indeed thankful for having the opportunity to interact with you.
Thanks. I've been happy to mediate this to a good conclusion, and appreciate all the cooperation from the participants. --Kevin Murray (talk) 07:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Sailing images
I mentioned our chat to my uncle, who had this to say:
Me: "Check out how similar the pics are."
My uncle: "But he has no beer can. I can't imagine what similarity you see...The 380 he owns is a really nice boat. A bit bigger than ours. Emeryville yacht harbor is very similarly located to South Beach Harbor in SF: from one you can get to the other: just go across the bay bridge and turn left for a half mile. same directions from either place."
Hey. I just wanted to thank you for being pretty reasonable about these notability discussions. If you might recall, we engaged in a lot of debate with people digging in on their own interpretations. Once this stagnated, people could finally see that no progress was being made, and then the proposals started. I think we had to hit "no consensus" first before the compromises started to happen. A lot of proposals for compromise have come forward since then. And all signs seem to point towards a WP:RFC that will solicit feedback about notability on a mass scale.
User:Masem put together a RFC proposal. We haven't decided how to proceed on it, but it does not include any of the proposals anyone worked on. I fear that restarting the discussion at a general level will just lead us back to "no consensus", and at a much slower bureaucratic pace. A number of people share that fear. As such, I've gained support for an alternative RFC proposal.
My RFC proposal includes every single proposal that was put forth. Take a look. It's still a work in progress, but the basic form is there. People generally think this proposal will be more productive because takes advantage of the fact that we collectively moved the discussion forward (by offering concrete proposals for compromise). But the same people also agree that this RFC page is less readable than Masem's because it just has too much information for the average disinterested wikipedian. My RFC page is almost twice as long as Masem's!
I'm not sure that we're even going to go with my RFC proposal. But if we do, I wanted to ask if you would consider withdrawing one of your proposals, particularly the one that essentially states "Reader interest can establish notability". (Admittedly, I may have butchered it by trying to sum it up.) I just don't think it will gain support, and I think it's going to be hard to objectify "reader interest". If you would withdraw this one proposal, it would shorten the RFC page and improve our organization and focus. (As an aside, your other proposal for "protected link-stub" would remain, no matter what.) You might be doing this process a big favor by withdrawing this one. But if you don't want to, I understand, and we'll wait to see what a consensus of other editors say.
Hi Kevin. I see this edit of yours tagged a proposal failed. What I don't see is how the "reasonable time" is arrived at. The topic seems to have been revived on WP:ANI. Your input would be useful.LeadSongDog (talk) 18:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
(relocated) I routinely go through the list of proposals and tag some failed since they have been abandoned or if they seem to have failed based on the criteria at WP:Policies and guidelines. I don't have a strong opinion on your project and see no reason not to revert my tagging based on your good judgment. One thought is that it might be more properly worked into a manual of style, rather than a stand alone guideline. Have you advertised it at the Village pump for greater feedback? Good luck! --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Actually it's not remotely my project, but it seemed to be causing a fair fuss, so it got my curiosity piqued. I've long been bugged by the seeming lack of clarity around what constitutes WP:CONCENSUS (although there seems to be lots of info on what doesn't!) But what I was after was an idea of how long was reasonable. Is there some policy that speaks to it, or just a judgement call? LeadSongDog (talk) 19:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Sadly, we don't have a specific criterion for what is reasonable, and without it we get unreasonable interpretations of what is reasonable. You might take a peak at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction) where in my mind a reasonable period has long since expired, but the proposal lingers. Consensus is a farce. WP is confusion in the name of civility, but generally it all works out in the end with a combination of good sense, camaraderie, bold action and compromise. --Kevin Murray (talk) 22:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
WP:FICT
Also, at WP:FICT you added "So instead of having an edit war you just edit war. Interesting solution?". I also started a talk discussion on the topic at the same time. I don't mind you reverting, but I do think if you are willing to revert, you should also be willing to talk about it. Hobit (talk) 19:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Because discussion about it is still on-going. A single version of it failed. But frankly if you put WP:PROF or all sorts of other guidelines up for a !vote, I think you'd find that they too would suffer a similar fate. It can't be failed because the current version failed. And it can't be historical as nothing (yet) has taken its place and there isn't consensus that nothing is needed. An essay is possible, but I don't think inclusion "rules" are generally essays, so that doesn't make much sense either. So I think the best label for it is "proposed".
Perhaps we cheat and go with a non-standard tag that explains the history. "On or about date XXXX this guideline became contested and no consensus has evolved as to what it should be now. Discussion is ongoing at X, Y and Z." If that notion works for you then I'm pretty mellow about the wording. Hobit (talk) 00:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, we seem to disagree on a number of issues. I think topic-specific guidelines are exactly what are needed. Different areas have different definitions of notability. In any case, perhaps we should post something at the WP:N discussion to figure out what exactly others think. thoughts? Hobit (talk) 01:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to better understand your reasons for adding back the link, and further my explaination of why I had removed it. If you can further explain your reasons - perhaps I overlooked something (it has certainly happened before, and will happen again to be sure) - I just want to more clearly see your interpretation of the value of the links.
For my reasons to have removed it ... when I look at the content, the only thing it contains that's not already documented at least as well in other links (either EL or ref) are the photo albums, and the advertising links and the community forum - the last two are never reasons for a link to remain, and the photos are more curiosities rather than anything to expand understanding of the article. Then when I looked at the editor who had added the link, they haven't made any content edits, their sole edits have been to post this external link to several articles; which is why I also posted about the link at WT:WPSPAM. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Suggest self-reversion
Hey KM, I laughed out loud at the recent proposal; (and definitely fully support the good anti-CREEP work you are doing with notability), but I think adding it to the notability guide template borders on the disruptive. I suggest you self-revert before folks get too upset (and you lose some of the deep well of goodwill you have built up from your notability work). UnitedStatesian (talk) 14:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Please see duplicate McMahan (hedge fund mogul) article posted by controversial editor who is part of Wiki seduction project. Contacting you via original user name for this article which finally had some editorial resolution as you surely recall. Seems to be deliberately provoking and malicious by an editor who has been blocked previously and has had many articles nominated for deletion, controversy re: barnstars he awards himself, etc. Suggested course of action? There already is an article regarding this subject though I still would say it should have been deleted way back when. I still don't believe the original article fits the criteria for notability on Misplaced Pages. Type FiveType Five (talk) 14:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi Kevin. I use that template sometimes, but essentially I don't see a difference when all I see at the bottom of an article is a list of books with no indication where the article content came from. As far as I'm concerned if a book is given, but not cited using a page number, it is just an invitation for me to read it so I can figure out what the original author of the article meant. As it is I have enough reading to do, so I simply change the section References to Recommended reading in the hope that other editors may wish to contribute their time also--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:59, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
That's sort of what this is, a project to take our existing policies and hack them down, counting on the experience of editors to know what is important enough to keep, what can be reworded, and what is redundant and can be removed. If that's not quite what you're aiming for, then I'm not certain what you're getting at. Hersfold17:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
On this, I'm beginning to discuss the specifics on a thread on my talk page called "DNB tool". I think this should give you an idea of what's required. (It is with Magnus Manske, who first wrote MediaWiki, so he may have some improvements to suggest!). Charles Matthews (talk) 08:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Neutral third-party opinion requested - minor edit war
Please comment on this subject: ]. I have posted this on WP:3, but it has yet to be addressed. Disagreement is regarding a clearly biased, second-party, self-published source in the introduction. Further, the content cited from this source (which does not meet WP standards) is a biased interpretation of what the source itself states. It should clearly be removed, as I have done repeatedly, but is has been repeatedly restored. 3RR rules requires someone independent to comment. If you are impartial regarding the subject, your opinion on the source is appreciated.--E8 (talk) 00:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Resolved - delete or archive at your leisure.--E8 (talk) 02:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Bill, It looks like your propposal to merge Hoagie to Sub did not receive enough support to demonstrate consensus after a week. You might try submitting an AfD with the recommendation of a merger as the outcome; however, with the amount of current references and those likely to be found with further research, I suspect that an AfD would not prevail. I watch this article for vandalism and POV on a regular basis; while trying to remain objective on the varied opinions, I try to keep the article on an encyclopedic track. That being said, this article is due for a major cleanup again.
Kevin, please show WP:Good faith while editing the Hoagie article. Unilaterally shutting down my RFC after a week when they go for 30 days, and falsely claiming That I "did not receive enough support" when I was in fact AHEAD 6 to 3, and constantly removing the perfectly valid photo of a Hoagie from Subway, are NOT what I would call showing "Good Faith". Thanks! BillyTFried (talk) 23:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Billy, I admit that I missed the count on the RfC as it was strangely formatted. It is now clear that there is more support for that merger than I assessed, though RfC is a demonstration for consensus it is not purely a vote. To merge a long standing article you will need more than a simple majority. As to the picture, it fine but the reference to subway must go as spam. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Yeah Wikiapples screwed up the whole thing and I had to fix it. The reference to Subway should stay. It is not spam. It is an illustration of the world-wide availability of Hoagies, which some of my fellow NJ-NY-PA natives would like to falsely claim are not hoagies, and that you can only get "real" Hoagies from that region. Read the opening paragraph that I revised today to clarify that hoagies are available not just in NY-NJ-PA, but all over the US and because of Subway and Quinzos... all over the world. That, I believe is very relevant to the topic. It doesn't need to be removed any more than the pic and ref of a Burger King burger needs to be removed from the hamburger article. If so, THIS would be spam beyond belief. BillyTFried (talk) 23:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, I modified the caption to remove the Subway reference, but won't oppose the return of your text for now. I'd prefer seeing the discussion of the widespread availability handled another way in a rewrite, but that is pending on the success of the merger. I didn't mean to get contentious with you; I was looking for a compromise and didn’t realize you were vested in the photo-- I don't have strong feelings on this just keep an eye on it since it seems to be an orphan-article that attracts a lot of POV.
I don’t see this as hugely important as a sandwich article, but very interesting historically as to the various explanations of the name. I stumbled here months ago working on shipping articles as a result of a reference from the Hog Island shipyard article. Shipping and especially as it relates to SF Bay is among my areas of interest.
Yeah, sorry if I was a bit aggressive. I am somewhat personally attached I guess. Of course since high school or so I knew of Subway and what not, but until I moved out of NJ at age 31, I actually had no idea that pretty much nobody else anywhere called them Hoagies. Then I checked Misplaced Pages and was stunned by the article that was clearly written by former neighbors of mine pretty much claiming Hoagies were some kind of unique special variety of a sandwich that's not related to Subs at all. It was ridiculous how the article was a few months ago. It also seemed that a good number of people tried in the past to fix and/or merge it with Subs but got ganged up on by NY-NJ-PA folks who shut them down. That ain’t the way it's supposed to work, so I took it upon myself to handle it. I suspect a few of them realized once they were dealing with one of their own that the BS wasn't gonna fly. BTW, if ya do skip Subway and Quiznoes you actually can get really great authentic Hoagies out here. Try http://www.mortysdeli.com in SF. Hoagies? The Bay Area's got it covered! Pizza? That's another story! And they make Calzone but NO STROMBOLI!!! :-P Happy Thanksgiving! BillyTFried (talk) 00:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
My area of specialty is fast foods and fast casual restaurant operations, not catering. The person to speak to would be Chris from the food and drink wikiproject who is a certified chef/trainer. He could provide you with help that is much better that I could with this type of question.
I like most of your changes on the American Hunters and Shooters Association introduction. But I think it's important to indicate that they are not only distinct from NRA but the nature of that difference. Has someone objected to saying they are pro-gun control? I don't really see how it's controversial or subjective. It seems to be the whole point of the group's existence and true by definition. No? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I think that "gun control" is a bit of a US centric buzz word. A more generic term would be restrictions on gun ownership. I also think that there si some subjectivity in applying lables and defining what they really do. I think that we should be careful around this topic. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
As it's a regional U.S. organization, I think some US centric wording isn't out of line. If a clarfication to give broader context to what gun control means is needed, I'm all for it. My issue was just that one could read the whole introduction and not know why the organization existed. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on File:Martinini rifle.jpg, by another Misplaced Pages user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because File:Martinini rifle.jpg is a duplicate of an already existing article, category or image.
To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting File:Martinini rifle.jpg, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click hereCSDWarnBot (talk) 16:50, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi Kevin, you may have been looking for guidance on the type of sausage to use in coddle. In general, Irish people only refer to one type of sausage - a pork sausage. It's the same sausage as the one used for Irish breakfasts and is pretty identical to pork sausages in the UK too. In my experience, you should be able to source something called a "breakfast sausage" in SF. There used be an Irish shop on Geary out of down town, (Geary and 22nd Avenue or something like that) and they used to sell Irish sausages (and bacon, etc). There's a bunch of Irish pubs around there too, and they'd be happy to tell you where to get sausages. In general, the best place to look for sausage receipes is here. Have fun! Wish I was there! --HighKing (talk) 13:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I think it is amazing that you know so much about the wife of notable physical chemist and thermodynamicist John Cahn (who I will be meeting with in May on UW Campus in Seattle to discuss my work). You must have quite a background ! -- logger9 (talk) 15:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading File:Boeing PW9.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.
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I can certainly take a look, Kevin, though I can't promise anything, as it's not an area I'd normally edit it. But I will at least look at it. SlimVirgin16:46, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I modified your file and made a PNG version of it with a transparent background. I'm not too familiar with the process so feel free to check things over and make sure all the licenses, permissions, credits, summaries, sources, copyrights, descriptions, backlinks, frontlinks, permits, warrants, patents, and executive summaries are all in order. And if there is anything you can do to show YOU as the creator of the image, then feel free to do that as well. JBarta (talk) 11:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Quotations is being proposed as a guideline
Given your interest in Sailing related articles, you are cordially invited to participate in WikiProject Sailing, a project dedicated to improving Misplaced Pages's coverage and detail regarding Sailing articles.
If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks that you can help with.
Kevin: This project might interest you. I like your work on the Cal, Catalina, etc. articles. RJ (talk) 20:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Do it right or don't to it at all...
With regards to this edit summary, that the Oregon article is currently unsourced does not give us an excuse to do shoddy work in the Olympia article. The goal is to get the article to FA—unsourced or poorly sourced material has no place in an article of that quality. There's absolutely no reason to create more work for ourselves by adding material without a specific source while we're trying to build the article up. Parsecboy (talk) 16:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with the change you made, though I also don't see it having changed the meaning of the sentence really at all. Either is fine by me. Thanks for catching the past-tense error in the characteristics section; most of the articles I write are on ships that ended up on the bottom of Scapa Flow so I have a habit of past-tense for everything.
Is there any chance you can easily get Cooling's book? I was using Google Books for the material I added this morning, but it cuts off at page 49 for me. I imagine the rest of the content would be immensely useful for the more obscure periods of the ship's career (between the wars and her last years with the USN).
We should have a few more editors dropping by once they get access to some other sources (see the discussion here about Olympia—as an aside, we can always use another naval historian over at WP:OMT). Ideally, we can get the article through FAC by 1 May, so we can run it on the anniversary of the Battle of Manila. Parsecboy (talk) 17:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Lead sections should summaries the information to follow, but each article is different, so the lead for each article inevitably fluctuates to a size consistent with the information to follow. I believe that the lead sections for the entire Iowa class of battleships were more or less written by me, these are usually short, yet the intro I did for HMS Hood (51) is long because much needed to be said of Hood's service in the Royal Navy. The key is to strike the right balance to wet an appetite for more yet keep the juiciest details out so these can be expended upon in the article body. To this end it may be true that my version has more details than Parsecboy's version, but if Parsecboy has done a better job of condensing the information than the purpose of the lead is fulfilled. In the end the excellent presentation of information is all that really matters, and if I had even a small hand in assisting this process then I am happy. TomStar81 (Talk) 19:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Thank you - and that's a very good job from what I can tell at the moment... Definitely not an easy one, there were all sorts of problems with the prose. GregorB (talk) 07:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi Kevin, I'm just writing to let you know that me and some Wikipedian friends are launching Misplaced Pages Club at Berkeley, a student club for promoting participation in Misplaced Pages and face-to-face collaborations. If that sounds fun to you, please consider joining our mailing list. You don't have to be a student to participate, as long as you live in the Bay Area. Thanks! Dcoetzee01:14, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm tagging the article for deletion. While it's not your fault, it has become a vanity piece for the company, and does not meet the notability guidelines. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
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The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)
Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page.
Steven Zhang's Fellowship Slideshow
In this issue:
Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
Research: The most recent DR data
Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
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Welcome your input on above - I didn't see that the actual draft was referenced anywhere, but maybe it has since be de-linked. Do you think it should be saved for historical purposes? Thanks. Please share your thoughts at the MFD. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
prices will rise, or force need-based-buyers to out bid irrational or ill-informed buyers.<ref>[http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-07-12/news/8602190919_1_realty-agent-net-listing-sales-
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I had cleaned up that article and renamed it a few years ago but didn't want to fuss too much with the prior editor's work. But to address your concerns I've rewritten the lede. That being said, it's very possible that the Flikr article could have been lifted from our text. This story is very common knowledge to camera collectors and well documented in several of the cited references. Happy holidays! --Kevin Murray (talk) 20:55, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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wow, thanks
I don't use the three-letter acronym, nor the five-letter-acronym, but I did really laugh when I read this.
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I see you've moved a portion of the lead of this article into a trivia section. I'm curious to know why exactly that was done, particularly since WP:TRIVIA generally frowns on such sections and with a GA-class rating material in question seemed better paired with its international first based counterpart, which I see is still in the lead. I'm not going to revert the move, but I'd like to get input from you on why you feel that this is trivia instead of relevant information so I can get a better idea where to go from here. TomStar81 (Talk) 02:26, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Hi Tom, I felt that the information is trivial to the history of a battleship, and didn't belong in the lead which should only be a summary of that which will be presented in the body of the article. I agree that plugging it into a trivia section was lazy on my part, but my objective was to clean up the lead. Any ideas? Thanks! --Kevin Murray (talk) 00:57, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
With regards to bullet point one, I concede the point, however if a discussion had opened on this we'd have been able to figure out what to do with the information. With regards to bullet point two, the answer is actually yes and no. Texas shares the same role as Mississippi in that they both served as test-beds for new and/or experimental weaponry, which is definitely not trivia, however they way in which it was presented could be seen as trivia. If you have no objections, I'd like to play with this some to eliminate the trivia section before someone complains about a GA article and a ship article having a trivia section and using it to justify adding more trivia sections to our ship article(s). TomStar81 (Talk) 14:08, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
I trust your judgment Tom. It seemed wrong to me in the lead. Go with your best instinct on how to deal with it. I will have no complaint with your choices. Thank you very much for your courtesy in dealing with this issue and sharing your concerns. --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
I took a stab at removing the trivia section by rewording some of the material, but I would like your input on the change since you were the one who thought it seemed weird. If it still seems weird I'll see about a complete reworking of the content by putting them into the article directly. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:45, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
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Hi Kevin, I notice that you removed the citations needed template from Sailcloth on two occasions, one time noting, "Extensive sources have been cited". Unfortunately, the sources, such as they may be, are not tied to statements in the text with an in-line format. So, it's impossible for a reader to verify any given statement. If you're willing, I'm game to team up with you and try to improve that situation. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:26, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
That's great, Kevin! I suggest that we open up each non-inline link in the References section, assess whether it qualifies as a reliable source, and then see if we can find a home for it in the text, where additional citations are needed. Thereafter, we can see what statements still need to be supported with references, find appropriate references or delete those statements that are not supportable. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 15:08, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
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Hi Kevin, I'm reviewing the backlog of files transferred to Commons, and we've reached the middle of 2009 (I know! Crazy!). One thing that is coming up now is that a lot of images at those times didn't list original sources of parts of them. It looks to me like the satellite image came from an old aerial survey, maybe government related, maybe out of copyright, but I can't go by guesswork. I'm hoping you can remember and help me add the information to the file on Commons. Thanks Bastique23:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
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