| Revision as of 10:27, 23 September 2022 editHistoryofIran (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers97,934 edits →Fully protected← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 19:23, 15 January 2025 edit undoLunaEclipse (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions8,250 edits Undid revision 1269518727 by Wikiedits421 (talk)Tag: Undo |
| (373 intermediate revisions by 97 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
{{Ds/talk notice|kurd|restriction={{#ifexpr:{{#time:U}} > 1642914000|<span style="font-weight:normal">Until 23 November 2022, the following restiction applies to this article:</span> Editors must not make more than ].|''''}}}} |
|
|
{{Ds/talk notice|irp}} |
|
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|kurd}} |
|
|
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|irp}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell |class=B |blp=other |collapsed=yes |listas=Amini, Mahsa, Death of |1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Biography}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography |importance = Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Death |importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Feminism |importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Human rights |importance=High}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Iran |importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Islam |importance=Low |Islam-and-Controversy=yes}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Law Enforcement |importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Women}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Kurdistan |importance=Low}} |
|
|
}} |
|
{{ITN talk|date=22 September 2022}} |
|
{{ITN talk|date=22 September 2022}} |
|
|
{{Annual readership}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell |living=no|blpo=yes|collapsed=yes|1= |
|
|
|
{{Consensus|'''Current consensus (January 2025):''' |
|
{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|blpo=yes |class=C|listas=Amini, Mahsa, Death of }} |
|
|
|
* In ] there was "'''strong consensus''' that Masha Amini '''should''' be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence of the lead". |
|
{{WikiProject Crime|class=C|importance=Low |
|
|
|
}} |
|
| b1 = <yes/no> <!--Referencing & citations--> |
|
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
| b2 = <yes/no> <!--Coverage & accuracy--> |
|
|
|
|algo = old(90d) |
|
| b3 = <yes/no> <!--Structure--> |
|
|
|
|archive = Talk:Death of Mahsa Amini/Archive %(counter)d |
|
| b4 = <yes/no> <!--Grammar & style--> |
|
|
|
|counter = 1 |
|
| b5 = <yes/no> <!--Supporting materials-->}} |
|
|
|
|maxarchivesize = 150K |
|
{{WikiProject Death|class=C|importance=Low}} |
|
|
|
|archiveheader = {{tan}} |
|
{{WikiProject Feminism|class=C|importance=Low}} |
|
|
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
{{WikiProject Human rights|class=C|importance=Low}} |
|
|
|
|minthreadsleft = 3 |
|
{{WikiProject Iran |class=C |importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Islam |class=C |importance=Low |Islam-and-Controversy=y}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Law enforcement|class=C|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Women |class=C}} |
|
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{page views}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Title == |
|
|
Should we change the name of article to "mahsa amini"? ] (]) 06:21, 19 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:No, because she isn't notable. It's her death & the reaction to it which are. I moved the article to Killing of, when the article portrayed her death as a certain killing. The article now portrays it as a suspicious death. ] (]) 12:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::This is a person article: https://en.wikipedia.org/George_Floyd ] (]) 05:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== 'Furthermore, various videos of the violent method of arresting women by Mortality police officers in the cyber space, indicate the violent treatment of the police against women' == |
|
|
I have no clue what this sentence are trying to say ] (]) 20:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Press TV blacklisted == |
|
|
The government's official response is here "Iran president orders thorough probe into case of women who collapsed at police station" (]) https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/09/18/689433/Iran-President-Raeisi-orders-probe-Amini-case |
|
|
|
|
|
I think the Iranian government's English news website is banned on Misplaced Pages. Thus, their answer can't be added to the article. ] (]) 18:11, 20 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Readjusting the sections == |
|
|
Hello. I think the "biography" section should be removed, and its content distributed on other appropriate sections (namely the following one, and the reaction). I remind everyone that this is an article about an event (the death of a person), not about the person themselves, who in this case lack notability (the event however is notable). For reference, please read ] and related articles. If there's no opposition, I will proceed to make the adjustments. ] (]) 18:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Done.-- ] (]) 19:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Name == |
|
|
I dont know much about family of Arabic languages, but I think Zhina and Jina are both derogatory name put on her, either by local media or authorities. The words are similar to ]. ] (]) 07:39, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:] & the ] aren't ]. ] (]) 09:53, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:(e/c) , it's a name of Kurdish origin meaning "life". It has nothing to do with the Arabic meaning. ]] 09:57, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== More on the reverted revisions of ] == |
|
|
Hey ], I noticed that you removed some content by making a change directly, and not discussing it in advance in the talk page. Before you do something like that, you should bring your intents here and let it be discussed briefly. Also, please read ]. ] (]) 15:35, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:The Kurdish transliteration is something new that was added, therefore I am not violating anything. In fact, you are the one violating it. I have already explained my reasoning . However, you are yet to do that. You even put the Kurdish transliteration before the Persian one this time, the sole official language of the country. Care to explain why you did that as well? --] (]) 15:52, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::@]: I repeat, the revision message is not enough reasoning. You should provide reliable sources. Please refer to ]. I also did not add anything, I just improved the currently existing content. I would not revert your revisions this time, but let a moderator get involved. ] (]) 18:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Provide reliable sources? For what? Sorry, but that’s not how discussions work here, nor real life for that matter; Could you explain yourself? And why you put Kurdish before the only official language of the country? ] (]) |
|
|
::::@]: Could you please give me the ID of the revision where I added any content stating that Kurdish is the official language of anywhere? ] (]) 18:35, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Huh? I was referring to Persian, you know, the sole official language of Iran? Please re-read my comment(s). Moreover, I am still awaiting an explanation from you. Since you like to attempt to lecture me with guidelines, let me return the favour; please read ]. --] (]) 18:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::@]: I assume that you are saying something like "I demoted Persian" or "I promoted Kurdish", and I asked for the ID of the revision where I added some content like that. Also, what explanation do you want from me? That you remove every "Kurdish" you see in the article by specifying the reason in your revision message? is enough explanation for anyone. I did not even involve in that section :) ] (]) 19:04, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::{{ping|HistoryofIran|Roj im}} There's no point in squabbling. Since she has Kurdish background, and her name is known in Kurdish as well as in Persian, I think both can be added. Preferably with Persian first, given that it's the official language of Iran.-- ] (]) 19:10, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::@Ideophagous Sorry, but I disagree. Kurdish has no official status in Iran or anything like that, and her Kurdish background has nothing to do with this unfortunate event. --] (]) 19:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::@]: If you're trying to work with Iran and its official languages, there are around a thousand articles to play with. You may also start by attempting to remove every "Kurdish" you see in the article ]. ] (]) 19:21, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::::If you have nothing to say, kindly stop derailing this thread. --] (]) 19:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::It's not about the official status or lack thereof. This is not an article about ] or an official government body in that country. Since the name in Kurdish is relevant to her background, it can help users find more information about her, and also show up more easily in searches if the name in Kurdish is included. I agree that excessive references to her Kurdish background should be avoided as well.-- ] (]) 19:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::::Sorry, but then why did you change it from 'Iranian' to 'Kurdish'? . I have reverted this per ]. Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event. So I don't see why her name in Kurdish should be here either. --] (]) 19:27, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::::I copied the old lead from a previous edit, which was changed by an IP. Didn't notice the "Kurdish" part. ] (]) 19:30, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::Thanks for the opinion, @]. I actually am not the one who added her name in Kurdish, neither the one who put it to the first. I just saw the removal of it, and I wanted to discuss the matter. ] (]) 19:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: and while you're squabbling over these minor issues, the article actually needs serious improvement of many of its sections, and should preferably have a background section as well, which explains the situation of women in Iran, regarding hijab law, police treatment, etc.--] (]) 19:25, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:I'm with ] on this. She was born in Kurdistan, but she was an Iranian woman. She could have been equally born in one of the other provinces that have their own ethnic groups and languages, such as Lorestan, Mazandaran, Gilan, or Azerbaijan, but she would still be Iranian. And even though many languages exist within Iran, the sole official language is Persian. Not to mention that her ethnicity is totally unrelated to what actually happened to her. <span style="font:'Pristina'">]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'"><sup>]</sup></span> 04:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::I agree. I just don't see the harm in including her name in Kurdish in the lead for the reasons I mentioned above. ] (]) 06:22, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
: "Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event." - That doesn’t mean that we can't put her Kurdish name in the article. This reason isn’t enough to remove the name. Because if the kurdish name doesn’t affect the article or description of the event then we should keep the name. If anyone want to remove the Kurdish name then they should explain in a logical and correct way that how her Kurdish name can affect the article. ] 06:42, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::And so why should we exactly add a name that is irrelevant? How come the other explanations aren't "logical and correct"? --] (]) 09:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::The Kurdish name is relevant to her cultural background, therefore it should be added. Any other references to "Kurds" or Kurdish culture, should on the other hand only be included if they're directly relevant to the content. Pushing this too far in either direction (removing all references to her Kurdish background or putting too much of it) is basically inviting vandalism. I would not fault Kurds if they try to modify the article if they see that it purposefully eliminates any mention of her being a Kurdish-Iranian, which is a given fact. But once again, I agree that her being Kurdish is irrelevant to the subject matter (as an Iranian, she would have been subject to the same treatment regardless of her background), and therefore that should not be included for no good reason. The name in Kurdish however is fine to include. This is most certainly '''not the same thing''' as including the Kurdish name for someone who has '''nothing to do with Kurds or Kurdish culture''', contrary to what you wrote somewhere above. ] (]) 10:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::"Her Kurdish background has nothing to do with his event" is what I wrote, which I still stand by. She died due to the hijab regulations, not her Kurdish background. This article is about her unfortunate death, which is notable, not her as an actual person. --] (]) 10:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::... and her name in Kurdish is still relevant to the article. There's no point in being ultra-nationlistic about this. Just concede this point, and let's move on to more important issues with the article that should be improved. Also please read ].-- ] (]) 10:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Quite rich that you accuse me of being ultra-nationalistic and then proceed to advice me to read ]. Feel free to read it yourself and then ] and ]. When you're ready to have a calm discussion without attacking others, feel free to reply to my arguments. --] (]) 10:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::You've just proved my point. Have a good day.-- ] (]) 10:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::That made no sense, but sure. And likewise. --] (]) 10:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::Per ]: "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." |
|
|
:::::::::Mahsa Amini was a citizen of Iran, born and raised in Iran. Her province of origin is not an autonomous region, nor a federal subject. Her tragic death, according to the sources at our disposal, simply had nothing to do with her Kurdishness. It was all due to the appaling human rights (and in particular, women's rights) in the country. In addition, Iran's sole official language is Persian. Kurdish doesn't hold official status. IMO, adding the Kurdish transliteration to the lede or material about her Kurdish origins diverts (read: ]) from what is going on atm in Iran per the sources; namely a nationwide uprising. It is not a "Kurdish uprising". I don't see any reason to add the Kurdish translit or her Kurdish roots to the '''lede''' of this article per these arguments and Misplaced Pages policies. However, I'm up for adding content about her Kurdish roots (and perhaps even the Kurdish transliteration) to the ''body'' of the article. - ] (]) 21:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::::There's absolutely no reason why her Kurdish name shouldn't be included on the infobox, at the very least. Is there any disagreement on that point? Cheers! ] (]) 22:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
=== Fully protected === |
|
|
I really didn't want to do this to an article being updated so much, but I've fully protected the article for 12 hours due to multi-party edit-warring over whether and how to mention Amini's Kurdish background. {{re|LouisAragon|Pirehelokan|Mitrayasna|Alexcalamaro|Keivan.f|HistoryofIran|c=|p=}} <ins>and</ins> ] <del>and ]</del>: Please discuss, and discuss ''civilly'' or I'm going to have to start handing out ] or ] sanctions. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 19:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:Not sure why I am included when I edited the page twice cleaning up the templates and not involved in the disputes. ] (]) 19:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::{{re|Semsûrî}} Apologies. Lots of diffs. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 21:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::{{re|Tamzin}} So I assume we have to reply here? Though I'm not entirely sure who I am writing this for because no one else has responded. To make my stance clear, I simply believe that when including the native name, the official language of the country to which she belonged should be given preference. Thus, in the lede, ] should come first, as that is the sole official language of Iran. Yes, she was from Kurdistan and could converse in ] as well, but her ethnicity has nothing to do with her tragic death. She could have been born in another province, and her ethnic language could have been ], ], ], ], etc. So the Persian equivalent of the name has to be included and has to come first as she was an Iranian woman, but if people insist on including Kurdish too, that would be fine with me personally. As another user pointed out, sometimes we "do this with people from places with regional languages, as Catalan". And hopefully we can get over this trivial issue now, because the article needs improvement. <span style="font:'Pristina'">]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'"><sup>]</sup></span> 01:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Oh, and if others refuse to speak their mind, then I suppose this suggestion could be implemented (Persian, followed by Kurdish), and anyone who changes the structure of the first sentence again would face the consequences. So please make sure to reply if you desire a different outcome. <span style="font:'Pristina'">]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'"><sup>]</sup></span> 01:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::'''I also think this change (inclusion of her Kurdish name) should be made on the infobox as well.''' |
|
|
::::And for anyone who thinks that her being Kurdish is somehow not relevant, here is something from a recent '''' article: |
|
|
::::{{tq|Videos show protesters, some speaking Kurdish, taking to the streets in Kamyaran and Abdanan, near Iran’s border with Iraq. Many of the protests have been concentrated in the west, the poor, predominantly Kurdish region Amini’s family hails from. The Kurds — who speak their own language, have a distinct cultural identity and are mostly Sunni Muslims in a majority-Shiite country — have complained for decades of neglect by the central government.}} |
|
|
::::Cheers! ] (]) 02:13, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Nobody denied that Kurds are being oppressed. At this point, many ethnic groups are being abused in Iran, but the factor that influenced the subject's arrest was her gender and her alleged refusal to conform with hijab laws, not her ethnicity. I think for the sake for simplicity, we can only include Persian and Kurdish equivalents in the lede and don't have them listed on the infobox, as in my opinion it would make it unnecessarily long. But again, let's see what others think. <span style="font:'Pristina'">]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'"><sup>]</sup></span> 03:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{ping|Keivan.f}} Thank you for your comment. I do not recall anything in Misplaced Pages policies about having a name only in the official language of a country. Why the Kurdish spelling of her name should be removed especially knowing that her name was actually Kurdish. The linguistic issue aside, removing the Kurdish spelling is against ]. This is especially crucial knowing the prosecution against Kurdish language. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be neutral. Misplaced Pages is not Iran, and Iranian law about languages does not apply. Thanks. ] (]) 04:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::It is regrettable that at this time when a country is in turmoil, we are sitting here discussing trivial issues that bore no influence on the tragedy that happened to this woman. Yes, many ethnic groups have been prosecuted in Iran and Kurds especially suffered the consequences, yet the subject's ethnicity was not the reason for which she was prosecuted and most probably killed. It seems that some people fail to understand this. This is an issue that is affecting all Iranian women regardless of their ethnicity, religion, or political opinions. As I said earlier, both the Persian and Kurdish equivalents can be included. There's no point in hashing and rehashing the same things all over again. <span style="font:'Pristina'">]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'"><sup>]</sup></span> 04:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Agreed that the subject's ethnicity likely had very little to do with what happened to her, but as this is a page about her (and her death), it also serves in part as her biography, and therefore is important to include her Kurdish name as well as her Persian name. There are plenty of pages about American individuals, for example, that also mention their Chinese or Japanese names, etc. etc. Seems like it should be uncontroversial to just mention both versions of her name and move on. Cheers! ] (]) 05:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' {{u|Keivan.f}} proposal to just add in the lead her Persian name followed by her Kurdish one. Also in the infobox (for coherence). My rationale follows all comments made above by {{u|Ideophagous}}. I hope this solution will close the discussion. ] (]) 05:43, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' per {{u|Alexcalamaro}} --] (]) 07:06, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' same as {{u|Alexcalamaro}} — ] (]) 07:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*{{admin note}} Protection has now expired. It looks like y'all are close to consensus here, if not already there, which is great. To avoid conflict going forward, I have placed a ] restriction under the ]: ]. Note that this is a bit narrower than the full "Kurds or Kurdistan" topic area, to avoid a situation where any edit about Amini, even ones unrelated to her Kurdishness, would be caught by the restriction. (That said, I encourage editors to hold to such a restriction even where not required.) <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 08:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*:Hey @]: @] just reverted your change of adding her name in Kurdish to the info box, and the first lang-ku template. All without previous agreements. Should we re-add the cleanup tag? — ] (]) 09:12, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*::That was not my change, but rather ]'s. As an administrator acting here in an administrative capacity, it is ] to make content decisions. However, in light of the consensus above, {{re|Mitrayasna}} I would encourage you to to revert your edit and instead continue this discussion. Please also note that if someone else reverts it, the ] in place for content on this page about the Kurdish people and Kurdistan would prevent you from reverting in turn in the next 24 hours. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 09:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*:::There is no consensus. Kurdish writing about the name of Mahsa is a subject that has been added. First, there should be a consensus on it, then changes should be made. ] (]) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*::::@]: Should we start another poll to re-add "Mahsa Amini" in Kurdish? — ] (]) 09:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*:::::I think we have a good enough discussion going here without it being a formal RfC, but that's really up to y'all. What matters is discussing rather than edit-warring, so I'm heartened to see all this. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 09:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:This lady's local name is Jina and her official name is Mahsa. In the case of Mahsa's name, I agree that there should be only Persian spellings, but in the case of Jina's name, there should be both spellings. ] (]) 08:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support adding the Kurdish transliteration to Zhina Amini''' as a comprise. She was born and raised in Iran, where Persian is the sole official language. Her Kurdishness had nothing to do with her unfortunate death, which is the subject here. --] (]) 09:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
{{rfc|bio}} |
|
|
Initially, there was her name in Kurdish. An editor removed it insisting that it was not a necessity. I discussed the matter, we didn't agree, there was a sort of edit warring, then we got a third opinion, we edited it as the third opinion suggested, the warring continued, the page got protected, a poll was started, the poll ended, the article was edited again as suggested by the poll results, the protection went away, an editor reverted the poll suggestions partially by editing the article directly without previous agreements, and then the poll pivoted from "to have her name in Kurdish or not" to "to have only one version her name in Kurdish or both" and "to have her name in Kurdish in the infobox or not". Now I want to know if the partial revert of the poll results by @] was a good thing or not. I think since we all agreed on that, it should be reverted. — ] (]) 10:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:Was this really neccesary? There is already an ongoing discussion up above. Also, Roj im, you're yet to actually come with a single argument, so you obviously didn't "discuss" anything. You could perhaps start with that. And as Mitrayasna already stated, no ] had been made. --] (]) 10:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::Yes, I see it as necessary because there is an inconsistency, you tried to move the goal of the original poll, and @] reverted what we all agreed on without previous discussions. ] (]) 10:23, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I haven't tried to move anything, I simply stated my opinion. Heck, I even made a comprimise. Meanwhile you have been ] for two days straight, keen on only making Kurdish-related edits and especially attempting to add her Kurdish name in an article about the death of a poor woman, with an account with under 100 edits, I wonder why? What is "We all agreed on without previous discussions" supposed to mean? How about giving the discussion a change to continue and a ] to ensure? --] (]) 10:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:This is not the case at all. Her name is everywhere in Persian and is preferable to other pronunciations. Also, his English name is exactly derived from the Persian pronunciation of the name (مهسا). |
|
|
:The matching of this girl's Latin name with the Persian pronunciation of Mahsa is a strong reason to write only the Persian spelling of her name. ] (]) 10:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Origin of the women == |
|
|
She is a Kurdish girl!! ] (]) 20:08, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:It is already mentioned that Saqqez is in Kurdistan Province. Nationality-wise though, she was Iranian. She could have equally been from other provinces that have their own ethnic groups and languages, like Lorestan, Mazandaran, Gilan, or Azerbaijan, but would still be considered Iranian. <span style="font:'Pristina'">]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'"><sup>]</sup></span> 04:13, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::I agree, but I have reinserted the Kurdish pronunciation (leaving both), as it is probably how people refer to her. ] (]) 04:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::How come you think that is the case? Please discuss it here first. --] (]) 09:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::She was Kurdish & Iranian, so it makes sense to include her name in both languages. We often do so for people who have an ethnic identity that differs from that of the general national identity. Kurds don't have their own country, but they're an ethnic group who have their own language. ] (]) 10:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::And there are likewise articles where we don't do that. It's ultimately a matter if it's relevant or not, which clearly isn't the case here, as this article is about the death of Mahsa Amini, which essentially happened due to her gender. I wonder if the same would have been said if she was from ] or ]. --] (]) 10:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Indeed it would be the same situation. We would include the name in the local language that represents her cultural background (assuming it's different from Persian), in addition to the Persian name.-- ] (]) 10:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::It's relevant to her identity that her name was different in the language of her ethnic group. That makes it relevant enough for the article. ] (]) 11:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::Agreed! Important and relevant to include. Cheers. ] (]) 12:09, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::Sorry, but how do you exactly determine her identity? She was born and raised in Iran. To avoid discussing the same subject in two different sections, please join the one above and kindly reply to the arguments I made there. --] (]) 14:12, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::Several reliable sources refer to her as a "Kurdish woman" or that she came from a Kurdish town in Iran (e.g. , , ). It's not Misplaced Pages's job to decide the truth, we simply document topics based on sources. As such, adding her name in Kurdish to the lead should be a no-brainer.-- ] (]) 15:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::::I'm missing how it makes it relevant to add her name in Kurdish (you're also yet to reply to my points above). Though per the afromentioned sources I have no problem in briefly mentioning her Kurdish background in the body of the article. --] (]) 15:54, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::::Maybe we just need an ] & vote on this then. Cheers! ] (]) 18:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::::::I'm fine with an RfC.-- ] (]) 00:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
Please, see discussion and votes following in section above : "More on the reverted revisions of @HistoryofIran". ] (]) 07:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Mahsa Amini’s father says authorities lied about her death == |
|
|
From : |
|
|
|
|
|
"Amjad Amini, whose daughter Mahsa died after being arrested in Tehran by morality police, said doctors had refused to let him see his daughter after her death ... 'They’re lying. They’re telling lies. Everything is a lie ... no matter how much I begged, they wouldn’t let me see my daughter,' Amjad Amini told BBC Persia on Wednesday. When he viewed his daughter's body leading up to her funeral it was entirely wrapped except for her feet and face – though he noticed bruising on her feet. 'I have no idea what they did to her,' he said." |
|
|
|
|
|
Please include a mention of this in the article, perhaps under the "'''Reactions'''" section. Currently it says, rather vaguely: {{tq|"Mahsa Amini's father, Amjad Amini, was interviewed by various international media about his daughter's tragic death and answered the claims of Iranian government officials."}} |
|
|
|
|
|
I think this vague sentence should be updated with details from the ''CNN'' article, linked above. Thanks! ] (]) 11:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:Article is locked, so if someone with edit privileges could make this change it would be much appreciated! Cheers. ] (]) 11:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::Done.-- ] (]) 12:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Thank you!! ] (]) 18:34, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Celebrities == |
|
|
More than half of these "celebrities" are totally unknown. Hundreds of famous people have spoken against this violence. Why are we giving these few coverage? ] (]) 14:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:Put some examples with sources and we'll add them. Probably most editors are simply putting names they've come across. ] (]) 14:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::I'd just remove the obvious ] first. Not like the article needs a celebrity section. ] (]) 15:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Replacing "Death" with "Murder/Killing" == |
|
|
Describing her horrible killing as "Death" (which does not suggest the dying being intentional - the story that the Iranian authorities have decided to go by) seems totally unfair. Any chance we could change the title? ] (]) 14:50, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:It can be changed if an official source confirms that it was murder/killing. Misplaced Pages should only include well-sourced information.-- ] (]) 14:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::Her killing has been called as such by most sources (, , , etc.) I hope citing these several credible sources is enough as such event is unlikely to be ever admitted by the government.](] • ]) 16:00, 22 September 2022 |
|
|
:::I moved the article to Killing, but it was moved to Death. ] (]) 09:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2022 == |
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Death of Mahsa Amini|answered=yes}} |
|
|
Mahsa Amini was born in 2000 not 1999/2000. ] (]) 16:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ― ]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 17:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Protected edit request on 22 September 2022 == |
|
|
{{edit fully-protected|Death of Mahsa Amini|answered=yes}} |
|
|
In the last line of the lead, it says "These may be the most severe Internet restrictions in Iran since 2019 when the Internet was shut down completely." Change it to "These may be the most severe Internet restrictions in Iran since 2019, when the Internet was shut down completely." with a comma after "2019." ] (]) 21:08, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{fixed}} as a non-controversial copy-edit per ]. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 21:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== So called == |
|
|
Why does it say "so called" and use scare quotes around "guidance patrol", "Moral Security" and "briefing class" in the circumstances section? ] ] 22:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{fixed|Removed}} those bits. It was that way due to someone copy-pasting from https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-iran-france-arrests-d2885fc65f51a6ee8758791e192c6992. Off to go check the rest of the article for copyvio now... <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 23:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::Despite my own hesitancy, I think that was the right call. ] (]) 23:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::{{re|ScottishFinnishRadish}} It was the copyvio-ness that tipped me to do something. On that note, I've ] around more cv from that source as well as cv from and . That led to more prose changes than I'd like to make to an FPP'd article, but I didn't really see another option when we're linking to copyright violations from the Main Page. If anyone has any concerns about the prose changes I made, please let me know. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 23:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Oh also, § ''Investigation'' is verbatim from , but I let it slide for now because it's an arrangement of names, titles, a quote, and the words "asked" and "to". Hopefully someone can add some words to that section when FPP expires and break up the verbatim copy, though. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 23:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::Also, general reminder to everyone that it is never okay to copy-paste sentences from sources, something that breaking-news articles are particularly susceptible to as people rush to add information. I've warned both editors responsible for it here, who are thankfully new editors who I hope will not make this mistake again; but in the past I've had to warn quite experienced users for doing it on articles like this. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 23:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::I was looking at that too, and it was pretty close, but not quite close enough for me to try and paraphrase editing from my phone. Thanks for that edit. ] (]) 23:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Remove Navid Zardi from the reactions section == |
|
|
{{Edit fully-protected|Death of Mahsa Amini|answered=yes}} |
|
|
In the reactions sections under "celebrities", the article says that "singer Navid Zardi decided to dedicate the incomes of his next concert to Mahsa's family". While this may be true, this singer doesn't have an article and this claim is cited only to an Instagram post. This doesn't really seem like a reliable source and is unduly promotional, with the line added to get attention for this singer. I propose removing this entry given the poor sourcing and lack of importance. ] (]) <small>(please use {{tlx|reply to|Chess}} on reply)</small><!--Template:Please ping--> 22:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:This seems like the cruft I would normally remove uncontroversially, but as it's full protected and I'm a bit hesitant, I'd like to hear from someone else before I make the edit. {{u|Tamzin}}, any input? ] (]) 22:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::{{re|ScottishFinnishRadish}} ] advises {{tq|Fully protected pages may not be edited except to make changes that are uncontroversial or for which there is clear consensus}}. I'd say removing a non-notable person from a reactions section is somewhere between "uncontroversial" and "minimally controversial"; personally I was going to wait for one or two people to concur with Chess, but I think it would be reasonable for you to action this. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 22:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::A similar thing could be said of the section above, even if it's not formally an ER. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 23:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::That I'm more hesitant about, as the first cited source says {{tq|by the regime’s so-called “Guidance Patrol” and transferred to the “Moral Security” agency.}} As the source is using the quotes I'm a bit less likely to edit through protection for it, but I'm also gunshy at the moment. ] (]) 23:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{done}}<!-- Template:EP --> ] (]) 23:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== US Treasury sanctions against Morality Policy and Iranian officials == |
|
|
{{edit fully-protected|Death of Mahsa Amini|answered=yes}} |
|
|
Please add info about US Treasury sanctions against Iranian Morality Police and seven leaders of Iranian security organizations, as a response to Mahsa Amini's death and subsequent protests, especially the oppression and killing of protestors. Sources: , ] (]) 23:54, 22 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:'''' also mentions this: {{tq|The United States on Thursday imposed sanctions on senior officials from Iran's intelligence and law enforcement branches, condemning what Secretary of State Antony Blinken called Amini's 'tragic and brutal death.'}}<br>Cheers! ] (]) 02:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{re|Ideophagous}} Courtesy ping that FPP has expired and you can now make this edit (without expressing an opinion myself on the merits of the edit). <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 08:52, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::It's already done.-- ] (]) 08:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Yes, I managed to forget to check that. 🤣 <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 09:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Protected Edit Request: Iran's president cancels interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour after headscarf demand == |
|
|
'''Please add to the article:''' |
|
|
|
|
|
* On September 22, '']'s'' chief international correspondent ] was scheduled to interview Iranian President ] in New York City, following his appearance at the ]. Amanpour planned to speak with President Raisi about several international issues, including the death of Mahsa Amini and the related protests. The long-anticipated interview would have been the first time Raisi spoke with US media on American soil. Forty minutes after the interview was set to begin and before Raisi arrived, an aide to the Iranian leader made a last-minute request and stated that the meeting would not happen unless the journalist wore a headscarf. Amanpour responded that she could not agree to the "unprecedented and unexpected condition" and later reflected on the situation, saying that "Here in New York, or anywhere else outside of Iran, I have never been asked by any Iranian president ― and I have interviewed every single one of them since 1995 ― either inside or outside of Iran, never been asked to wear a head scarf".<ref>{{cite web |last1=Yang |first1=Maya |last2=Wintour |first2=Patrick |title=Iran leader shuns Christiane Amanpour interview over refusal to wear headscarf |url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/22/christiane-amanpour-ebrahim-riasi-headscarf-interview-iran |website=The Guardian |access-date=23 September 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220923010308/https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/22/christiane-amanpour-ebrahim-riasi-headscarf-interview-iran |archive-date=September 23, 2022 |date=September 22, 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Mackintosh |first1=Eliza |title=Iran's President abandons CNN interview after Amanpour declines head scarf demand |url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/22/middleeast/iran-president-ebrahim-raisi-christiane-amanpour-intl/index.html |website=CNN |access-date=23 September 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220923010606/https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/22/middleeast/iran-president-ebrahim-raisi-christiane-amanpour-intl/index.html |archive-date=September 23, 2022 |date=September 22, 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |last1=Farhi |first1=Paul |title=Amanpour says Iran’s president canceled interview when she wouldn’t cover head |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2022/09/22/cnn-host-says-she-wouldnt-cover-her-head-so-irans-president-canceled-her/ |website=The Washington Post |access-date=23 September 2022 |archive-url=http://archive.today/2022.09.23-031811/https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2022/09/22/cnn-host-says-she-wouldnt-cover-her-head-so-irans-president-canceled-her/ |archive-date=September 23, 2022 |date=September 22, 2022 |url-status=live}}</ref> |
|
|
|
|
|
(In case it's not clear: can just edit & copy/paste the above text directly into the article, wherever it fits best, as this is my own writing and is based on info from the cited sources.) '''Thank you! Cheers.''' ] (]) 05:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
{{talk refs}} |
|
|
|
|
|
* Seconding this nomination. - ] ] · ] (]) 03:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*: {{re|Presidentman}} Courtesy ping that FPP has expired and you can now make this edit (without expressing an opinion myself on the merits of the edit). <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 08:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I think this more related to ] than to this article. Though I would keep the paragraph shorter, since it includes irrelevant details (e.g. the quote "Here in New York..."), and add that she was asked to wear the hijab because of the "situation in Iran" as CNN mentions.--] (]) 09:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:I added it to ] with some adjustments.--] (]) 09:26, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== "Circumstances of death" minor error == |
|
|
This line: "'''He''' was told she would be taken to the detention center to undergo a 'briefing class' and released in an hour." That "He" should be "She", no? There's no specific male mentioned in that section.] (]) 02:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)corpho |
|
|
:Sorry, that's my mistake from when I was cleaning up the copyright violations, removed a clause I shouldn't have. {{fixed}} <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- ]</span><sup>]'']</sup> (she|they|xe)</span> 02:46, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Move the name of article from "Death of Mahsa Amini" to "Mahsa Amini" == |
|
|
I created this article and at first it's name was Mahsa Amini but heavy editing by different users changed the name of it to Death of Mahsa Amini. I believe Mahsa Amini is the right name for this article because she is famous not only for her tragic death by iranian morality police but for her own character as she was a young girls like millions of other iranian girls who choose to be happy and free from Iranian government mandatory laws for women clothes. So she was arrested because of her clothes and she got killed in this way and became the symbole of freedom for iranian people specially for women. |
|
|
her name by the hashtag of #مهساـامینی was retweeted more than 15 million times and she is well known not onle near iranian people but also near all over the world. |
|
|
please move the name of article to Mahsa Amini or Mahsa Amini (Jina). ] (]) 08:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:No, according to ], she's not notable. She's only on Misplaced Pages because of the circumstances surrounding her death, and as such, only her death is notable.-- ] (]) 08:56, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Zhina/Jina confusion == |
|
|
Both Zhina and Jina are representations of her name in Kurdish with no difference in the pronunciation. Zhina is based on the ], and Jina is based on Jîna, the same name written in the ]. The current state of the first paragraph of the article might create a confusion as readers might think their pronunciation are different. I suggest removing the "Jina Amini", and adding its full version next to the lang-ku template. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Kurdish-Iranian == |
|
Like this: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Should Mahsa be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence? '']''<sup>]</sup> 12:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
<code><nowiki>On 16 September 2022, a 22-year-old Iranian woman named '''Mahsa Amini''' ({{lang-fa|مهسا امینی}}, {{lang-ku|مەھسا ئەمینی ,Mehsa Emînî}}), also known as '''Jina Amini''' or '''Zhina Amini''' ({{lang-fa|ژینا امینی}}, {{lang-ku|ژینا ئەمینی ,Jîna Emînî}}),<ref name="ncr">{{Cite web |date=15 September 2022 |title=Zhina Amini goes into coma 2 hours after arrest |url=https://women.ncr-iran.org/2022/09/15/zhina-amini-goes-into-coma/ |access-date=18 September 2022 |language=en-US}}</ref> died in ], Iran, under suspicious circumstances, potentially due to ].<ref name=":0">{{Cite web |date=16 September 2022 |title=Iranian woman 'beaten' by police for 'improper hijab' dies after coma: State media |url=https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2022/09/16/Iranian-woman-beaten-by-police-for-not-wearing-hijab-dies-after-coma |access-date=16 September 2022 |publisher=]}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |title=IranWire Exclusive: Morality Patrol Beats a Woman into a Coma |url=https://iranwire.com/en/women/107558-iranwire-exclusive-morality-patrol-beats-a-woman-into-coma/ |website=iranwire.com |date=15 September 2022 |access-date=18 September 2022}}</ref></nowiki></code> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Pinging @], @], @], @] and @] as editors involved in the discussion at ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 12:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
Also: Hey, {{mention|Mitrayasna}} Please provide more info on why you did . |
|
|
|
:Masha should be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian per: |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Kurdish-Iranian Mahsa Amini}} |
|
|
:# ] (via ]) {{tqq|Amini, 22, an Iranian of Kurdish origin}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurd}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|a 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] (UK) {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an Iranian woman of Kurdish origin}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Amini, a 22-year-old Iranian Kurd}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|death of a young Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, 22, who was of Kurdish origin}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an Iranian Kurd}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Kurdish-Iranian woman Mahsa Amini}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|The Kurdish woman, 22}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an ethnic Kurd}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|22-year-old Iranian Kurdish woman named Mahsa Amini}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish woman's death}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, the Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Amini, a Kurdish woman from Saqqez}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|the death in custody of a Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa/Zhina Amini, a young woman from Iran’s oppressed Kurdish minority}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, a young Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:'']''<sup>]</sup> 12:08, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::Credit to @] for compiling that list. '']''<sup>]</sup> 12:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::Not per ]. She died due to being a woman, as they are constantly discriminated by the regime, which the article also mentions. I have nothing more to say about this. Bests. ] (]) 13:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:'''Yes''' - ] says {{tqq|Ethnicity ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability}}, and the 32 sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. I'm not going to speculate about whether she died because she was a woman or because she was Kurdish or because she didn't properly wear a hijab or because she resisted an attack in the van or from natural causes or for some other reason or a combination of these reasons. Whatever the reason, the sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Misplaced Pages. I'll also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a section of MOS:BIO and applies to biography articles, and this is not a biography article. In any event, we should follow the sources when it comes to how to describe the victim. ] (]) 19:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::I concur, we should follow the sources. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== RFC: Referring to Masha Amini as Kurdish-Iranian in the lead == |
|
— ] (]) 09:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{closed rfc top|1=There is '''strong consensus''' that Masha Amini '''should''' be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence of the lead. Of the two dissenting !votes, their arguments have been answered in the comments from the supermajority of "Yes" !votes. <small>(])</small> ] (]) 06:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)}} |
|
: I have to write her name with international spelling ] (]) 09:21, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
Should Masha Amini be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence of the lead? |
|
::Disagree on adding the Kurdish transliteration to the Mahsa Amini name per the arguments up above. --] (]) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::What about only removing the "Jina Amini" as it is a wrong representation and might lead to confusion? — ] (]) 09:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This has previously been discussed at ], ] and ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:26, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
== Misrepresentation of source == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
=== Discussion (RFC: Referring to Masha Amini as Kurdish-Iranian in the lead) === |
|
{{ping|Roj im}} You changed "feminist slogans" to "Kurdish feminist slogans" apparently based on the second source https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Death_of_Mahsa_Amini&diff=1111855277&oldid=1111855068. However, this is what the second source says "''“Jin, Jiyan, Azadi” (women, life, freedom), the motto of the Kurdish women fighters.''". It does not call "death to the dictator" a Kurdish slogan. Please re-do your edit. ] (]) 09:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
*'''Yes''', they should be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian per the following sources which refer to their ethnicity as being Kurdish: |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Kurdish-Iranian Mahsa Amini}} |
|
|
:# ] (via ]) {{tqq|Amini, 22, an Iranian of Kurdish origin}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurd}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|a 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] (UK) {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an Iranian woman of Kurdish origin}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Amini, a 22-year-old Iranian Kurd}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|death of a young Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, 22, who was of Kurdish origin}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an Iranian Kurd}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Kurdish-Iranian woman Mahsa Amini}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|The Kurdish woman, 22}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, an ethnic Kurd}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, the Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|the 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|22-year-old Iranian Kurdish woman named Mahsa Amini}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish woman's death}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|The 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Jina Amini, the Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Amini, a Kurdish woman from Saqqez}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|the death in custody of a Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa/Zhina Amini, a young woman from Iran’s oppressed Kurdish minority}} |
|
|
:# ] {{tqq|Mahsa Amini, a young Kurdish Iranian woman}} |
|
|
Credit to Levivich for putting together the list of sources. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:29, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
*Pinging @], @], @], @] and @] as editors involved in the discussion at ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 12:50, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
* '''No''' She was born in Iran and unless she had some kind of duel citizenship the closest example at ] is Isaac Asimov. Per the guidance of ], {{tq|we do not add ethnicity ("Jewish-American") or country of birth ("Russian-born American"). These details can be introduced in the second sentence if they are of defining importance.}} This seems important enough to mention in the second sentence, but as far as the option presented in this RFC, '''Kurdish-Iranian''' isn't supported by ]. Thanks! ] (]) 16:52, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Yes''' per ], which says {{tqq|Ethnicity ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability}}, and the 30+ sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. The sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Misplaced Pages. I'll also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a section of MOS:BIO and applies to biography articles, and this is not a biography article. In any event, we should follow the sources when it comes to how to describe the victim. ] (]) 22:10, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
* '''Yes'''. MOS:NATIONALITY mentions exceptions, discussing the Spanish regional identities, which the status of Kurds is probably closer to, especially given it was relevant in the circumstances that lead to her death, plus the sources do it as shown above. ] (]) 04:37, 30 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
* '''Yes'''. While her 'Kurdish-ness' does not seem ''immediately'' significant, {{tq|the 30+ sources above demonstrate that in this case, it's relevant to the subject's notability. The sources almost universally describe her as "Kurdish" or "Kurdish-Iranian" or similar, and therefore so should Misplaced Pages.}} per Levivich. ] (]) 07:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
* '''No''' Not the norms. The ] of coverage seems to favor just "Iranian", judging from *all* the first several I looked at were using that (BBC, NYT, FoxNews, Daily Mail, Washington Post, The Globe and Mail) and that looking at CNN I saw both usages so. Yes, you can find "Kurish Iranian" but it doesn't seem predominant, much less shown as hyphenated "Kurdish-Iranian". I also give weight to the arguments that the hypenated ethnicity is not the WP norm, and not a major factor in the story. Cheers ] (]) 01:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
*:Some of the sources you've stated support your position are considered by community consensus to be generally unreliable or are depreciated. E.g., ] and ]. Also you've provided no analysis. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Yes''', per @]. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)</small> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{closed rfc bottom}} |
|
:The original wording was incorrect that lead to mixing it with "death to the dictator". So I'll just rephrase that, what do you think :) — ] (]) 09:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{done}} — ] (]) 09:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
Should Masha Amini be referred to as Kurdish-Iranian in the first sentence of the lead?
![[REDACTED]](https://u3vuiephb.global.ssl.fastly.net/File:Misplaced Pages-logo-v2.svg){kind=link}
