| Revision as of 21:37, 31 December 2022 editKolya Butternut (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,517 edits →Lead definition sources: re← Previous edit |
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== C-class downgrade == |
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== Label o f picture == |
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The picture of a naked man abd a naked woman illustrate human sexes. It does not illustrate their genders (which as drawings they can't have). A depiction of human genders would need to involve some element of how two people behave as society provides for them to act according to their sexes. For instance, the male might be holding a hunting weapon appropriate for big game, and the female might be weaving a basket. ] (]) 16:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC) |
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], can you please elaborate on ] to class C? You gave as the reason, ''downgrade to C-Class due to lack of citations, see also: ]'' [linked discussion now in ]].) This article has 205 citations, which at a size of 147 kb works out to 1 citation per 717 bytes. I checked another article in the gender space, ], which has 257 citations in 177 kb, or 1 per 690 bytes, so roughly the same as this one. Yet, FGM is a featured article, so it would seem that this number of citations could be appropriate for a FA for other articles as well. So, at a minimum, I don't see that as a valid argument for a downgrade below FA, and since this one started out at 'B', I think it should be restored to 'B'. ] (]) 08:24, 21 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:By the time the ] bearing that image launched, 1) The terms ''gender'' and ''sex'' had started to be used more interchangeably, and 2) most human societies had evolved far beyond the hunter/gatherer stage. ] (]) 19:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:] I agree with your reasoning. I should've been more through with my assessment. ] (]) 12:51, 21 October 2022 (UTC) |
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::This article has changed a lot since I first started working on it. Back then "gender" was the most common way to refer to whether any organism, human or otherwise, was male or female. And by "most common," I mean "in the English language overall," not "in the social sciences as written in English." If you said "sex," it'd be like that time on ''The Simpsons'', when Lisa said "These dolls are sexist" and the other girls laughed and said "Lisa said a dirty word!" As Haig writes, in and around 2003, the words were functionally interchangeable. I like that the article shows that the FDA changed its in-house definition of the term more than once. We could use a few examples from outside the U.S. ] (]) 20:45, 11 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:: Thanks for the assessment review, and for your comments. (Needless to say, it could be subject to reassessment based on other factors, and as assessing editor shouldn't shy from that if applicable.) Cheers, ] (]) 15:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC) |
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== Lead sentence definition == |
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I propose changing the lead sentence to something like: |
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*{{tq|Gender is "the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with" the male or female sex in humans}}. ''Merriam-Webster'' |
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This is consistent with the current source (Palan, K. (2001)): "ender is the cultural definition of behavior defined as appropriate to the sexes in a given society at a given time." ] (]) 01:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
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: Oppose. If you check , you'll see that they don't have one. (But note that they do have .) So, I think they are adding the definition of ''gender role'' to ''gender'', because they don't have another place for it. In fact, the definition you quoted, is pretty close to what I think of as a definition of ''gender role'', and I don't think your proposed definition should be used here. Notice that it is only the 2b definition; why pick that one and not, say, the 2a definition, which it equates to the ''sex'' 1a definition? (Rhetorical question; definitely don't do that!) The point here being, a (good) dictionary lists *all* meanings of a term (not only the primary one) including less frequent usages. Here, they are listing *all* the ways that the word ''gender'' can be used, and it's true that it sometimes it is used to mean "sex" (as in 2a), and sometimes it is used to mean "gender role" (as in 2b). But in no way is 2b the primary definition of it, and we shouldn't cherrypick that version and imply that it is. ] (]) 09:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Is the subject of this article not the 2b meaning? If not, which dictionary definition of gender are we discussing here? ] (]) 10:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Mathglot}}? ] (]) 00:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::: Thanks for the ping. As to the questions, I think I'll bow out, and let more major contributors jump in. Not that I'm avoiding things—I may pop in later—but I'm a bit gendered out at WP articles for the moment, and need to lurk or play a more minor role here for a bit. But I will subscribe, and watch with interest, and rejoin, perhaps, at a later time. Thanks again! ] (]) 00:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:The proposed lead/definition is crappy, poorly sourced, and does not summarize the content of this article or its sources. Let's not do that. ] (]) 19:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::The proposed sentence is consistent with ''Merriam-Webster'', the OED, and several other cited sources on this talk page and in the article. The concept of gender is based on the characteristics societies associate with the sexes. A person who was assigned female at birth but has the gender identity of a man is said to be trans because their gender does not align with society's typical expectations for the female sex. If the concept of gender wasn't based on associations with sex, then there could be no such thing as trans. Our articles do not articulate gender's association with sex. ] (]) 20:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::A formulation is not DUE for this arricle's lede just because it is present in a handful of dictionaries and other sources - some of which are not recent, and none of which are needed for the actual content of this article. |
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:::In saying this I am not making the counterfactual alternative argument that "gender" and "sex" are entirely unrelated. But any overly specific formulation of and terminology for this - such as your initial one or your subsequent one - essentially cherry-picks among the sources to impose a particular conceptual logic, which is not in line with the bulk of the sources on this article's topic. ] (]) 20:48, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::I have shown that my proposal is supported by arguably the most reliable dictionaries. What definition and sources do you believe are superior? ] (]) 21:01, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::: How about the sources the rest of the article actually uses? Cherrypicking a dictionary definition and then insisting that that specific definition is what other sources on the topic "''actually''" mean is classic ]. ] (]) 23:19, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::In addition to the two dictionaries I cited, I cited a source in the article in my 01:06, 17 December 2022 comment above. You've argued that my preferred definition and sources are wrong, but you haven't told me what you think is correct. I cannot argue your position for you. ] (]) 23:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::That one isn't a ''recent'' ]. And I think LEADFOLLOWSBODY is correct - a viewpoint that doesn't require either you or me to {{tq|argue}} in its defense. ] (]) 13:28, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::That doesn't tell me what sources in the article you've seen support the current lead sentence, assuming that's the definition you support. ] (]) 16:48, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::The OED definition is actually cited in the body, and that's current. The WHO definition is actually cited in the lead. I believe it supports my proposal. It's using the words ''men'' and ''women'' to define sex as well as gender, so I don't think it's OR to assume this nonacademic source is consistent with the OED and M-W definitions. But seeing as the fourth paragraph is about gender as sex, {{u|Mathglot}} is right that my proposed definition isn't appropriate as the lead sentence because it is limited to the meaning of social gender. |
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::::::::The definition used in ] is consistent with what I was trying to propose, and it is presumably supported by the body of that article. I would like to include this definition or its summary somewhere in the lead of ]. ] (]) 17:07, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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A better definition may include gender roles: |
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*{{tq|Gender is "the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for" humans of a particular sex}}. |
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The article ] may need to be merged here, or this article should be shortened to encompass just an overview of all of the concepts of gender. ] (]) 02:13, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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Or |
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*{{tq|Gender is the roles and behavioral, social, cultural, and psychological characteristics that a society typically associates with humans of a particular sex}}. |
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"Socially constructed" is implied by "a given society typically associates with". I'm trying to simplify this to something like what {{u| Clicriffhard}} and {{u|Tewdar}} had discussed at Draft:Female (gender).] (]) 05:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:The source cited for the above suggestion states {{tq|In biosocial terms, gender is not the same as sex}} at p. 33 and the above suggestion does not appear to be a quote. There is the artice ], as well as the sources and the developing lead in ] that seem relevant to consider - there does not appear to be support for a definition of gender that is as strictly tied to "a particular sex". I think precision in terminology will be helpful, given the occasional overlap in informal uses of the words. ] (]) 05:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Also, The source cited above includes a section titled "Are gender and sex the same? Usage Guide", which includes, {{tq|Among those who study gender and sexuality, a clear delineation between ''sex'' and ''gender'' is typically prescribed, with ''sex'' as the preferred term for biological forms, and ''gender'' limited to its meanings involving behavioral, cultural, and psychological traits. In this dichotomy, the terms male and female relate only to biological forms (sex), while the terms masculine/masculinity, feminine/femininity, woman/girl, and man/boy relate only to psychological and sociocultural traits (gender).}} |
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::The 2004 cited after Merriam-Webster's above includes {{tq|The definition of gender emphasizes psychological and cultural traits, whereas the definition of sex emphasizes structural and functional traits. Both definitions, however, include behavioral aspects.}} |
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::The source cited above states: {{tq|Sex refers to the individual's biological sex, that is, the biological one is born with. Gender, on the other hand, is more malleable. It refers to an individual's "psychological sex" which may be socially and culturally constructed}}. It quotes two sources for the quote cited above, for which the meaning seems more clear with the context provided by Palan. |
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::In the 2007 source cited above, it states: {{tq|Gender refers to “the array of socially constructed roles and relationships, personality traits, attitudes, behaviours, values, relative power and influence that society ascribes to the two sexes on a differential basis. Gender is relational—gender roles and characteristics do not exist in isolation, but are defined in relation to one another and through the relationships between women and men, girls and boys” (1). Simply put, sex refers to biological differences, whereas gender refers to social differences.}} (citing ''Health Canada''. Ottawa: Health Canada's gender-based analysis policy; 2000. p. 14.) |
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::In the source cited above, it states: {{tq|b. Psychology and Sociology (originally U.S.). The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex. Also: a (male or female) group characterized in this way.}} |
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::The 2005 book cited above says in its preface {{tq|Gender encompasses biological sex but extends beyond it to the socially prescribed roles deemed appropriate for each sex by the culture in which we live. The gender roles we each carry out are highly individualistic, built on our biological and physical traits, appearance and personality, life experiences such as childhood, career and education, and history of sexual and romantic interactions}}. |
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::] (]) 06:25, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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* Per ], to help avoid the appearance of {{tq|Posting messages to users selected based on their known opinions}}, everyone involved in the discussion referred to above should probably be notified. ] (]) 08:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Becca, what was your point with all those quoted definitions? I'm not seeing inconsistency between my suggestion and those citations. ] (]) 08:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::My comment above that says {{tq|there does not appear to be support for a definition of gender that is as strictly tied to "a particular sex". I think precision in terminology will be helpful, given the occasional overlap in informal uses of the words}} is about the suggestions, based on the sources cited here, and at the article and draft also linked in that comment. I think it would be helpful to incorporate sources more clearly and proportionately. ] (]) 09:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::My proposal does not state "strictly tied to a particular sex", so I am not aware that we are in disagreement. ] (]) 13:53, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::Your suggestions use the biological term "sex" to define gender even though the sources state this terminology should not be used. Instead, sources state, e.g. that {{tq|gender is not the same as sex}}, so more precision in language to avoid misrepresenting sources appears necessary. ] (]) 15:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::: That sounds like strawmanning and misrepresenting the nuances of the sources. If you are unwilling or unable to specifically and concisely cite language in my proposal which contradicts specific language in the sources then I don't think we can continue this discussion. ] (]) 17:07, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::The way that the word "sex" is used in suggested summarized definitions of "gender" appears to not clearly represent the content and meaning of the sources used to support the summary in the context of this topic. |
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::::::::When I refer to incorporating sources more clearly and proportionately, this also refers to ] policy, which from my view, includes incorporating the context of sources. |
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::::::::I am not sure what you mean by "strawmanning", but as we have previously discussed, a ] seems best for discussions about content. It appears that every source cited above does not support the broad use of the term "sex" to define "gender", because these terms have precise meanings in the context of this topic and according to various sources. It further appears we also need to consider the article contents, per ]. ] (]) 17:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::To straw man: "To falsely attribute an insubstantial argument (a straw man argument) to another through direct declaration or indirect implication". I must point out that the ''content'' of your statements is inaccurate. You continue to make generalized statements without actually quoting language from my suggestions against quotes from the sources, so you have shown no inconsistencies. ] (]) 17:38, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Don't worry, I'm pretty checked out of Misplaced Pages editing at the moment and happy to stay out of this discussion. Hope you're all well in any case. ] (]) 18:23, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::I'd rather go down to the local pub in disguise and announce that I've recently purchased a second home in the village while effecting a Liverpudlian accent than become involved in this discussion, but thanks for asking. ] 19:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:This proposal is comparably crappy and poorly sourced as the original proposal; the intention seems to be to insert a (presumably well-intentioned) logic and specious clarity that is not supported by the vast majority of the recent, reliable sources. Again, let's not do that. ] (]) 19:47, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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{{od}}In comments above, I added specific quotes from sources that differentiate between gender and sex, and explained several times that the specific uses of the term "sex" in the suggested summary definitions do not appear to adequately reflect (i.e. are inconsistent with) the sources used as support for those suggested definitions. |
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In the context of this topic and these sources, this seems to be a specific and well-established distinction that should be incorporated into any summary, including per ] and ]. ] (]) 18:09, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:You made no, and continue to make no, direct comparison by accurately quoting my suggestion against a quote from the sources. Are you willing to concisely compare a quote from my suggestion against a quote from ''one'' source? ] (]) 18:27, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::I believe that I have by quoting the sources, because none of them appear to support the suggested summaries. I also began with a comparison of a suggestion and a quote of one source . But this appears to be an issue related to incorporating multiple sources, none of which appear to support the way "sex" is used in the suggestions to introduce the concept of gender. |
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::Per ] and ], it appears more appropriate for you to explain how sources making a distinction between gender and sex can support a summary that does not appear to make this distinction. Or in the alternative, we could discuss summaries that are more clearly supported by the contents of the article and sources per ] and ]. ] (]) 19:08, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::You keep falsely representing my suggestion as somehow refuting the sex and gender distinction, but you are unwilling to articulate, with quotes and concision, why. ] (]) 19:19, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::At this point, I do not think it is reasonable to continue asking me to re-explain what has already been clearly explained with sources and policies. Please either identify support in sources for the use of the term "sex" or let's move on to a discussion focused on developing alternatives. Thank you, ] (]) 19:41, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::Not sure where to put this, but the source 7 does not support the assertiong made, that "Most scholars agree that gender is a central characteristic for social organization." ] (]) 18:03, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::{{tq|Please either identify support in sources for the use of the term "sex"}}. My proposal may not be suitable as a single lead sentence, but it is consistent with the lead of ], which also uses "sex", and much of this article is about social gender (role). ] (]) 18:19, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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===] article dicussion === |
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::::::Hi {{u|Kolya Butternut}}, I attempted to correct what appears to be mis-use of sources, and to add a clarifying source in the ] article, but you have repeatedly removed the reliable source and source-based correction , , while apparently not taking into account the full scope of the source used to help clarify the lead and main article. |
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::::::It would be appreciated if you would review the sources to confirm how the sources do not support the use of the wikilinked ] and are in fact referring to what is commonly understood as ], which is not circular when we are discussing gender roles. Further discussion can be found at '''', which discusses "problems of terminology" at pp. 4-5. It appears we need to be very careful with how we use terminology, and to review sources carefully so we use them in the context intended by the source. Many sources use "sex" informally, while specifically disclaiming support for the use of the ] wikilink, and this article, as well as the gender role article, appear to support making this distinction much more clear. ] (]) 21:10, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::I reject your characterizations. Please continue this discussion at the appropriate talk page: ]. ] (]) 21:22, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::The sources and discussion appear to be relevant here, because you referenced the ] article as support for suggestions, and then repeatedly reverted the ] article after attempts to clarify terminology according to the article sources and an additional source added to help clarify the terminology. |
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::::::::I have offered sources and reasoning here to try to help this discussion move forward, because there may be an issue related to how terminology is used, and it seems helpful to locate this discussion here, at least for now. ] (]) 21:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I've split this discussion into a new section. I don't agree with your characterizations of what you've done, what I've done, or what the sources state, so you'll have to provide direct quotes, ''concisely''. ] (]) 22:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::On the contrary, Beccaynr, the very source you link here on pages 4 and 5 first defines sex as {{tq|biological characteristics distinguishing male and female}}, and then - here's the point - defines gender as traits {{tq|linked to males and females}}. It also states, {{tq|Gender roles, therefore, are the expected attitudes and behaviors a society associates with each sex}}. Yet, removed "sex" from the definition of "gender role" and replaced it with "gender", generating circularity, and ironically now complain about "mis-use of sources" while citing a source that contradicts your contention. As for "when sources use sex", if they are academic sources from a relevant academic field and have clearly not overlooked the sex and gender distinction, then it is ] for Wikipedians to conclude that when they say "sex" they actually mean "gender". <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 23:59, 19 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::At page 4 of the source, it states, "Gender can be viewed on a continuum of characteristics demonstrated by a person regardless of the person's biological sex." At page 5: "When the sociological concept of role is combined with the biological concept of sex, there is often misunderstanding about what content areas are subsumed under the resultant ''sex role'' label. Usage has become standardized, however, and most sociologists now employ ''gender role'' rather than ''sex role'' in their writing." |
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::::::::The OED also appears to make a distinction in its example of usages of "", which includes "...even if it runs counter to the physical sex of the subject." |
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::::::::One of the currently used in the gender role article after the line in the lead with the link to ] defines gender role as "patterns of behavior, attitudes, and personality attributes that are traditionally considered in a particular culture to be feminine or masculine." The other source for that sentence provides a capsule definition without accessible context to support the link to the ] article, particularly in the context of other sources and especially the contents of the gender role article. |
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::::::::I also think it is important to assess the article as a whole and how the article itself does not support linking to a general article about biology for an article about this sociological concept. ] (]) 00:55, 20 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::The page 4 quote is about ''individual persons'', not the concept as a whole. The page 5 quote is about the term "sex role", which is a separate matter. None of this negates the source's clear explicit statements. The OED quote demonstrating usage is from '''1963''' and is obviously outdated, claiming that "gender role" is "learned by the age of two years is for most individuals almost irreversible". This tells us nothing about modern usage; see ].{{pb}}That other source in the lead is just one among several and does not contradict that such constructs are based ultimately on roles/attributes intended for particular sexes. Humans are both biological and social beings and as such, it is not surprising that social roles were built on top of pre-existing biological differences rather than arbitrarily. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 02:00, 20 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Crossroads, the book is about the concept, and "gender" is discussed as a concept by the book, including at pp. 4-5, and I have highlighted that section because it speaks to the terminology confusion that can exist and appears to exist when the lead doesn't reflect the body of an article. In both ] and ], there appear to be similar ] issues related to the use of the ]-related articles that do not appear supported by the contents of the article and sources, contrary to ]. ] (]) 02:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Let's stay focused on the use of the word ''sex'' in the lead definition of ]. Source 2 and 4: |
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:::::::::::*{{tq|Gender roles, therefore, are the expected attitudes and behaviors a society associates with each sex.}} |
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:::::::::::*{{tq|The social roles, behaviors, attitudes, and psychological characteristics that are more common, more expected, or more accepted for one sex or the other}}. |
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:::::::::::Yet Becca stated above (regarding ''Gender''): {{tq|Your suggestions use the biological term "sex" to define gender even though the sources state this terminology should not be used.}} That statement misleads. ] (]) 03:34, 20 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::{{u|Kolya Butternut}}, please include a diff if you quote me, so context is available and I can directly respond. Your assumption of my good faith would also be appreciated. Also, I have tried to discuss challenges with the terminology with reference to sources and the article contents, per ] and ], and I apologize if I have not made this clear. Thank you, ] (]) 03:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::Your comment is on this very talk page above at 15:43, 18 December 2022, or you can use Control+F to find your quoted comment. |
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:::::::::::::Regardless of good or bad faith, the content of your comments is misleading. If you will not express understanding of this, then it is fair to assume bad faith. ] (]) 04:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Please note that the scope of the term "gender" as used in this article is considerably broader than the same term as used in ], so it would be inappropriate simply to port content between the two articles, especially their lead sections. ] (]) 15:15, 21 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::This talk page section is just about the lead of the other article, as I made clear at 21:22, 19 December 2022 above. ] (]) 18:28, 21 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::::But in you stated that you intend to retroject material from ] into the lead of this arricle. Where would you prefer for me to raise the grounds I just mentioned, as an objection to what you are proposing? I'll do so wherever you like. ;) ] (]) 19:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== ] and ] == |
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fyi, this draft includes sources in the article and on the Talk page that may be helpful for expanding this article, including the lead. There is a related discussion at ] with sources that may also be of interest to editors. ] (]) 02:32, 18 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== Article scope and lead == |
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This article appears to be about Gender broadly, meaning that it covers grammatical gender, social gender, and sex. However, last August after , "biological sex" was removed from the lead sentence, perhaps was the final removal. Making things more confusing, ] or ], depending on the source, may be synonyms for social gender: |
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*{{tq|ender gained a meaning referring to the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex, as in "gender roles."}} "Gender", ''Merriam-Webster'' |
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*{{tq|One's identity as female or male or as neither entirely female nor entirely male.}} "Gender" ''American Heritage Dictionary'' |
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It is unclear to me what the scope of this article and the other gender articles should be. ] (]) 22:18, 21 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:There is a discussion that may help answer this question at ], particularly the sources cited and discussed. ] (]) 22:29, 21 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::No, that doesn't help. Your draft is about social gender, but ] is currently not limited to that. ] (]) 23:39, 21 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::That particular discussion on the draft Talk page discusses how the draft addresses more than social aspects of gender; the draft also currently includes a Biological section in addition to other aspects, including Legal. And I think there are a wide range of sources that may be helpful for editors generally interested in this article and the lead. ] (]) 23:53, 21 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::I don’t see how that draft is limited to "social gender", as opposed to gender identity, say, or cultural engendering/engenderment (the cultural construction of femininity). What excess do you believe you have identified at "Gender" that does not apply, say, to Female (gender), Male (gender) and Nonbinary gender? Is it the terminological discussion (usage of the ''term'' gender) that this article contains? ] (]) 17:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::I apologize for my imprecision. I would like to focus on this article. I would like to continue this discussion with my comment below with the same timestamp. ] (]) 20:25, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:Your list, {{Tq|grammatical gender, social gender, and sex}}, does not strike me as particularly helpful, since it does not include gender ''identity'', which is distinct from all of the above. Your list also seems to posit (as did some prior versions of this article's lead) that "sex" (or "biological sex") can be straightforwardly distinguished from gender, or that a relationship between the two can be simply delineated, while I don't believe that either of these assumptions is widely shared within the relevant literature. ] (]) 00:30, 22 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::This article currently is about grammatical gender, social gender, and sex (all species), ''at least''. Regardless of the nuances of the sex and gender distinction, this article is not just about social or psychological gender. My question is, what should it cover? ] (]) 02:24, 22 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::If you think gender identity - a major aspect of gender in the 21st century - can be paraphrased as {{tq|psychological gender}}, then I'm not confident that you should be posing content questions about this article, to be completely honest. ] (]) 16:21, 22 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::Are you unwilling to articulate what you think the scope of this article should be? ] (]) 19:11, 22 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::I don't find the scope of this article to be especially problematic or in need of further definition. If I were to name a problem with the article, it would be the passages that rely on outdated sources. ] (]) 17:26, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::I'll rephrase: are you willing to articulate what you think the scope of this article is? ] (]) 20:25, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::: What part of {{tq|I don't find the scope of this article to be ... in need of further definition}} seems unclear to you? The article's scope is what it is. ] (]) 21:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::I thought by {{tq|definition}} you were referring to the clarity the scope in the lead. If by definition you mean articulating the scope in this talk page, "further" implies that you've articulated the scope. Which comments of yours articulated the scope? ] (]) 01:21, 25 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::{{Tq|The article's scope is what it is}} appears to me to be standard English, and reflects my view. ] (]) 01:42, 25 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I'm not sure the answer will ] you (this particular thread seems like unproductive head-butting), but my interpretation of Newimpartial's remarks here is that the current scope of the articles ], ], ], and ], and the distinctions between them, are self-evident from the text of the articles themselves, and that (although the concepts may have some overlap, particularly as the term "gender" is used in common parlance) they are already organized and delineated in an acceptable fashion. –] (] • ]) 01:57, 25 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I don't think that it is at all fair to cite ] which describes making {{tq|repeated unreasonable demands for re-explanation of that which has already been clearly explained}}. The scope of this article should be summarized by the lead, but the lead is not clear. The current lead has a ], and the sources I listed in the subsection below do not clearly support the first sentences. And I began this section asking about the scope by questioning the removal of "biological sex" from the lead. ] (]) 02:59, 25 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::I added the dubious template to the first line of the lead: {{tq|''Gender'' is the range of characteristics pertaining to femininity and masculinity and differentiating between them.}} I think {{u|Newimpartial}} addresses this issue with their comment below discussing "characteristics", and the contents of the article seem helpful to consider as well. ] (]) 03:18, 25 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::: I should perhaps have pointed out previously that the scope of this article does not include {{tq|sex (all species)}} (sic.) It includes ''the use of the term gender to refer to sex'' in human and nonhuman species, which is not at all the same thing. I'm still really not confident, Kolya, of your competence to formulate questions about the content of this article, based on performance to date. ] (]) 21:11, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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=== Lead definition sources === |
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We may need to update the sources or the lead definition. Currently there are three sources which state: |
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*{{tq|"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women. ... Some examples of sex characteristics: Women menstruate while men do not}}. World Health Organization (2017) |
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*{{tq|... I want to give you an integrated theory of gender. Since current usage is so inconsistent, we need a good definition. Gender is the relationship between biological sex and behavior ... Social science explanations of gender depend on three concepts: gender role, socialization, and opportunity structures. ... A gender role is a range of acceptable behavior that differs by sex in a particular behavioral domain (say, parenting) and is supported by gendered norms.}}. Udry, Richard. "The Nature of Gender". ''Demography'' (1994) |
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*{{tq|From this beginning, there was a slow but gradual increase in the use of gender through the 1960s by writers, especially in the social sciences and among psychoanalysts, who wished to emphasize the environmental, social, or psychologic determinants of psychologic/behavioral differences between men and women.}} "The Inexorable Rise of Gender and the Decline of Sex: Social Change in Academic Titles, 1945–2001". ''Archives of Sexual Behavior'' (2004) |
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Are there preferred sources in the article for the lead definition? ] (]) 03:40, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:Legal definition from the body: {{tq|The word "gender" has acquired the new and useful connotation of cultural or attitudinal characteristics (as opposed to physical characteristics) distinctive to the sexes. That is to say, gender is to sex as feminine is to female and masculine is to male.<ref>''J.E.B. v. Ala. ex rel. T.B.'', 114 S. Ct. 1419, 1436 n.1 (1994)</ref>}} ] (]) 03:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:WHO definition from the body: {{tq| The World Health Organization defines gender as the result of socially constructed ideas about the behavior, actions, and roles a particular sex performs.}} ] (]) 06:14, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::You appear to be cherrypicking sources that make reference to {{tq|sex}}, for some reason. Do you believe that these represent the corpus of sources referenced in this article? I do not believe that they do (and we should not be reaching back to 1994 sources for non-historical purposes, in any case). ] (]) 17:24, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::My question was, are there preferred sources in the article for the lead definition? ] (]) 20:25, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::: If you're asking for a definition, my starting point would be the WHO's {{tq|Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed}}, except that I find "characteristics" to be unnecessarily restrictive. I would prefer, for example, to include gender relations - {{tq|Gender relations define how people should interact with others and how others relate to them, depending on their attributed gender, and they should be analyzed within the cultural context in which they develop}} - and similar concepts that cannot be reduced to "characteristics" pertaining to individuals. ] (]) 21:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::Thank you for giving me information. The US Department of Labor interprets a WHO definition of gender as the: {{tq|"'socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate' based on sex."}} ] (]) 00:36, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::This feels like one of those marine mammal scenarios where an editor keeps pulling any source or text offered back towards their idée fix (in this case, "sex"). ] (]) 13:15, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::I am seeking to clarify how gender relates to sex, so naturally I am analyzing the text and sources to figure out how sex fits in. If you think the US DOL is getting WHO's definition of gender wrong, I think that shows that the average person would be confused by it. ] (]) 15:52, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::This isn't an article about {{tq|how gender relates to sex}} (the article on that topic being ]), so I'm not convinced that {{tq|analyzing the text and sources to figure out how sex fits in}} is the best contribution you could be making to ''this'' article. The US DOL has lots to say about gender, and the specific {{tq|based on sex}} formulation that you have pulled out of context isn't especially prominent among its statements, IMO. ] (]) 18:28, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Would you please strike {{tq|pulled out of context}}? Below is the context: |
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{{tq2|'''Gender Identity: Key Terminology''' |
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'''What is the difference between sex and gender?''' ''Sex'' (i.e., male, female, or intersex) is assigned at birth based on a combination of a baby's biological characteristics, including chromosomes, hormones, and |
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reproductive organs, and is originally documented on a person's birth certificate. The World Health Organization defines ''gender'' as the "socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate" based on sex. |
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}} |
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:::::::::] (]) 20:18, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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{{Od}}I am not going to do what you ask. You have seized upon the one passage on that DOL page that elaborates briefly on gender in relation to sex, as opposed to the vast majority of that page's text that does no such thing. I would direct your attention, for example, to the following, IMO more interesting, passage: |
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{{Talk quote|Discrimination based on gender identity or expression can affect anyone. Policies barring these forms of discrimination not only protect those who openly identify as transgender, femme, masc, or non-binary, but they also protect anyone who might express their gender in any way that does not conform to preconceived notions about how people of a particular gender should express themselves.}} |
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That passage offers a useful articulation of how discrimination based on gender ''expression'' is not reducible to gender ''identity'' or to minorities based on gender identity - while still remaining a key aspect of ''gender''. None of this explanation requires reference to "sex" for its interpretation, as is typical of the DOL page as a whole. So "pulled out of context" still applies, IMO. ] (]) 20:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:The passage I cited is from a list of definitions which includes separate definitions for ''gender identity'' and ''gender expression''. The US DOL is apparently citing WHO's definition: {{tq|"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.}} It might be argued that this definition is out-of-date or the US DOL is misinterpreting it, but I disagree that it was {{tq|pulled out of context}} by me. I think we can agree that the lead is {{tq|dubious}} and the current sourcing in the lead is inadequate. I find the WHO definitions confusing. The ] article's lead states, in part, that {{tq|''gender'' usually refers to either social roles based on the sex of a person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).}} That language sounds clear, but not sufficient for this article. I am curious what other definitions folks find helpful. ] (]) 22:57, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:: article is quite good. ] 23:12, 30 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::The authors suggest {{tq|operationalising gender as consisting of several aspects, which can be divided into the four main facets of: (a) physiological/bodily aspects (sex); (b) gender identity or self-defined gender; (c) legal gender; and (d) social gender in terms of norm-related behaviours and gender expressions (the American Psychological Association refers to this aspect as ‘sex role’; APA, 2015).}} ] (]) 01:47, 31 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::One of the complicating factors here is the ambiguity about whether the {{tq|social roles}} referred to as either "sex roles" or "gender roles" are based on the sex of a person (as Misplaced Pages states, and as the term "sex role" implies) or are based on gender identity and gender expression (as the term "gender role" implies, and as Lindkvist et al. suggest when writing in their own voice). In reality, these roles can be interpolated based on both or either, but rapid elision to a "based on sex" formulation doesn't do our readers any favours, IMO. ] (]) 15:56, 31 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::Lindkvist et al.: {{tq| (d) social gender ... (the American Psychological Association refers to this aspect as ‘sex role’; APA, 2015)}} APA: {{tq|sex role: the behavior and attitudinal patterns characteristically associated with being male or female as defined in a given society. Sex roles thus reflect the interaction between biological heritage and the pressures of socialization, and individuals differ greatly in the extent to which they manifest typical sex-role behavior.}} ] (]) 20:11, 31 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::: Yes, I can read, thanks. But that isn't what Lindkvist et al. continue to discuss as {{tq|social gender in terms of norm-related behaviours and gender expressions}}. You can keep going back to {{tq|the interaction between biological heritage and the pressures of socialization}} all you want, but that is no longer a typical or uncontested characterization of the concept that can be stated in wikivoice much less in an article lead, as you have repeatedly advocated. ] (]) 21:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::I don't think I've advocated for any particular language/idea for nearly two weeks. Part of what I am doing is questioning the dominant POVs here. I don't recall you quoting a single source's definition of ''gender'' which you agree with, so it is difficult to collaborate. ] (]) 21:37, 31 December 2022 (UTC) |
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* I think consideration of ] is helpful when discussing the lead, but as to the source identified by Tewdar, "" by Lindqvist et al in 2020, it also states {{Tq|Every researcher should reflect upon why they include gender as a variable, how it is connected to their research question, and what aspect/s of gender that best may serve as predictor(s) for the outcome variables. To aid in that process, we provide a systematic deconstruction of gender into four facets, and discuss how to operationalise each facet. The goal is not to make a best practice recommendation, but to help researchers reflect upon the concept of gender and make informed decisions about measuring gender}} and later on, {{tq|Both on a theoretical and a linguistic level, the terms ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ are conflated. In English, physiological/bodily aspects are often referred to as sex which regards genitalia, chromosomes, and bodily attributes, while social aspects are referred to as gender (Frohard-Dourlent et al., 2017; West & Zimmerman, 1987), including cultural meanings associated with behaviour, personality and expressions conventionally labelled as feminine or masculine (Reisner et al., 2015). Despite this conflation, sex seems to be a poor proxy for gender, because it is incorrect to assume that sex precedes and determines gender (Bittner & Goodyear-Grant, 2017; Butler, 1990; Fausto-Sterling, 2012; Westbrook & Saperstein, 2015).}} There is also the that could be considered. ] (]) 20:39, 31 December 2022 (UTC) |
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The rise of criticism against the WID approach led to the emergence of a new theory, that of Women and Development (WAD). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhum.group2 (talk • contribs) 17 May 2019 (UTC)
In contemporary times, most literature and institutions that are concerned with women's role in development incorporate a GAD perspective, with the United Nations taking the lead of mainstreaming the GAD approach through its system and development policies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhum.group2 (talk • contribs) 17 May 2019 (UTC)
The picture of a naked man abd a naked woman illustrate human sexes. It does not illustrate their genders (which as drawings they can't have). A depiction of human genders would need to involve some element of how two people behave as society provides for them to act according to their sexes. For instance, the male might be holding a hunting weapon appropriate for big game, and the female might be weaving a basket. P0M (talk) 16:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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