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== "Black Wall Street" == == KKK and ABB ==


Three links which are of historical relevance are:
There doesn't seem to be a primary source from the time linked, that shows that the street was known as "black wall street." Even the source linked doesn't say it was "negro wall street." Could we verify this and add one? ] (]) 06:02, 3 February 2024 (UTC)


== Pogrom? ==


https://en.wikipedia.org/Tulsa_Benevolent_Association
Seeing as people are moving away from the term riot to describe this sort of event(even though there's a long history of it, see Atlanta Race Riots, Aleppo Riots, 1984 Delhi Anti-Sikh Riots, Elaine Riots, Salvador Peasant Riots), I get the name change, English is a living language, riot doesn't have that connotation of mass violence the way it used to to many people especially post 1992, I get it, not gonna argue that.


But I feel Pogrom is probably the best word to fit what this was, given the racial component of the event and the civilian lead nature of the event(Massacre would fit better if it was top down, this was bottom up lead by citizens, that's a pogrom) ] (]) 00:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
:That's a very cogent point, but I basically think of pogram as applying to European Jews, so, unless we have some refs using the word, I would be original research to use it. The Misplaced Pages has to lag behind things a bit, not lead. So we'd have to wait for other people to start using it. ] (]) 06:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
::Fair enough, but like I said there isn’t really a word that fits perfectly at the moment.
::Pogrom is usually associated with Jewish events like the Aleppo Riots or Polish Pogroms.
::Massacre is usually associated with state actors, armys, or terrorist, and tends to be more top down, not a bunch of random riled up citizens commiting the violence.
::Riot used to be the word for this sort of event(I actually did some research into this, most events called ‘race riots’ or even many other riots like the Delhi Sikh Riots or Aleppo Riots are basically this sort of violence. Tulsa Race Riot fits that), it’s historically an extremely big tent term that covers a lot of things, but especially after the LA Riots it’s instead essentially come to refer to either ‘violent out of control protest’ or ‘sports riot’. Elaine and Tulsa got their pages renamed after Watchmen drew attention to them, though interestingly most of those other events still have their pages called Riot.
::I will say I don’t think saying ‘Riot’ was chosen as a term specifically to try to coverup the event though, that was just the vernacular for this sort of thing. (Rather the efforts to cover it were hiding bodies in mass graves in the case of Tulsa, and blaming the blacks for starting it in both Tulsa and especially Elaine) ] (]) 18:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
:::I guess my issue is different bites of the site are using different terms.
:::Most pages still use Riot in the big tent sense of the word, including other American incidents like Atlanta or some of the international ones.
:::There was a list of deadliest riots on the ‘battles and other violent events page’ (which was up for years, but recently taken down due to fighting and brigading regarding whether or not October 7th was a terrorist attack or not), and it used the Big tent definition. Race Riots, Pogroms, Sports Riots, Violent Protests, and Peasant Uprisings were all counted as riots, including both Tulsa and Elaine. And if Tulsa and Elaine aren’t riots anymore, then logically there’s dozens of other pages to be renamed. It can’t be both a big tent term and a very specific term, and unfortunately some people use it one way and some people the other and they aren’t all moving in the same direction. ] (]) 18:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
:::: FWIW, ] has many entries, both by and against Native Americans. Most (but not all) are called massacres (some are incidents, battles, etc). Most (but not all) of the American attacks do indeed have a militia with an actual leader who usually had a military title, which I suppose you could characterize as performed by a government, although the militia was probably ad-hoc nearby citizens. Some do have just "White settlers attack an Indian encampment" etc. Presumably these had leaders in the sense of somebody being like "Let's go get 'em boys, we'll march up the the riverbank", but then I suppose the Tulsa event had people doing the same on an ad-hoc basis at times. (Indian government is quite different, and I don't know if you could say any of their attacks were official government acts, but maybe.) ] (]) 23:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)


== Getting the Right Words ==


https://en.wikipedia.org/African_Blood_Brotherhood
Language is important. Words like pogrom, or riot, or massacre don't seem to be an exact fit to describe this event. Certainly the opening description "a white supremacist terrorist massacre" taken from a modern newspaper article by a black rights activist is factually incorrect and misleading. First because there were two massacres: the initial one when over 70 black militants shot and killed 10 white Tulsans. The second problem is that we cannot know what was in the 'invaders' minds. Describing them all as 'white supremacists' is a matter of imagination and modern speculation not fact. Indeed since initially many were formally deputized as a legitimate posse in hot pursuit of a large armed gang which had just committed large scale murder, then racism seems to have been a minor motivation if any at all. That opening description is best removed to the end of the page under 'modern views' or some similar category. ] (]) 15:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)


As I said in my post, Riot in it's original usage is the best term, there are other pages like Atlanta about similar events in the states, and pretty much all the international incidents like Delhi or Aleppo use that kind of language.
The issue is mainly down to modern America post-LA riots using the term in a very specific way that Tulsa and Elaine(and honestly most race riots even if the pages haven't been renamed) don't fit, while most of the rest of the world still uses Riot in a big tent 'any sort of riotous and violent mob action' way, including violent protests, pogroms, sports riots, and race riots, and in that sense these events do fully fit under Riot.


https://revolutionsnewsstand.com/2023/02/10/the-tulsa-riot-by-commander-tulsa-post-african-blood-brotherhood-from-the-crusader-vol-4-no-5-july-1921/
So it's basically about whether you want to go with the international language or the American language on the incident <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


The first link confirms that the KKK chapter in Tulsa was only founded in January 1922, seven months ''after'' the Tulsa riot/massacre.

The second two links concern the largely forgotten activities of the militant African Blood Brotherhood and its presence in Tulsa in 1921.

Buck Franklin in his autobiography confirms the presence of political agitators in Greenwood although he does not expressly identify them as ABB activists. ] (]) 13:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

== New 123-page DOJ report. Can this PDF be embedded and made accessible? ==

News articles:<br>
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/11/us/tulsa-race-massacre-report.html<br>
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/01/10/tulsa-massacre-report/<br>
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/10/tulsa-race-massacre-report-doj<br>
https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/local-regional/2025-01-10/doj-credible-reports-that-law-enforcement-participated-in-murder-during-race-massacre<br>
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/5080213-tulsa-race-massacre-justice-report/

Official links to the Department of Justice report:<br>
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-results-review-and-evaluation-tulsa-race-massacre<br>
https://www.justice.gov/crt/case/ac-jackson

The 123-page report (PDF document):<br>
https://www.justice.gov/crt/media/1383756/dl

Can this file be embedded and directly included for viewing to the side of the Misplaced Pages article text? ] (]) 16:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
:I've added the report to '''Further reading'''. I don't know of a way to embed it and question whether that's even appropriate. ]&nbsp;] 17:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
:Embedding it here would be inappropriate. But it could live at ? ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 18:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
I recommend that the article note that the report released on January 10, 2025, was amended and improved, according to the January 17, 2025 memorandum approved by the Chief, Criminal Section, Civil Rights Division. https://www.justice.gov/crt/media/1383756/dl.] (]) 17:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:32, 21 January 2025

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Race Massacre of 1919, No move, April 28, 2017
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, Move reverted, November 20, 2018
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, No consensus, August 8, 2019.
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Race Massacre, Request declined, October 15, 2019
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Massacre of 1921, Request declined, January 5, 2020
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, Moved, February 7, 2020
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 4 times. The weeks in which this happened:
Section sizes
Section size for Tulsa race massacre (56 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 15,520 15,520
Background 8,169 8,169
Monday, May 30 (Memorial Day) 35 3,481
Encounter in the elevator 2,141 2,141
Brief investigation 1,305 1,305
Tuesday, May 31 21 17,621
Arrest of Rowland 1,756 1,756
Newspaper coverage 3,512 3,512
Stand-off at the courthouse 4,803 4,803
Taking up arms 4,831 4,831
Outbursts of violence 2,698 2,698
Wednesday, June 1 1,360 15,841
Fires begin 2,944 2,944
Daybreak 1,371 1,371
Attack by air 5,406 5,406
Arrival of National Guard troops 4,760 4,760
Aftermath 15 36,824
Casualties 9,899 9,899
Property losses 954 954
Identities of the African American victims 3,424 3,424
Public Safety Committee 856 856
Rebuilding 4,793 4,793
Tulsa Union Depot 4,917 4,917
1921 grand jury investigation 37 6,454
Allegations of corruption 1,476 1,476
John A. Gustafson 4,941 4,941
Breaking the silence 5,512 5,512
Survivors 269 17,088
Olivia Hooker 2,442 2,442
Eldoris McCondichie 2,193 2,193
George Monroe 1,254 1,254
Mary E. Jones Parrish 2,456 2,456
Lessie Benningfield ("Mother Randle") 1,785 1,785
Hal Singer 2,053 2,053
Essie Lee Johnson Beck 1,550 1,550
Vernice Simms 1,543 1,543
Lena Eloise Taylor Butler 1,543 1,543
Tulsa Race Massacre Commission 2,243 2,243
Post-commission actions 29 27,989
Search for mass graves 12,476 12,476
Reconciliation 3,331 3,331
Survivors' lawsuit 2,526 2,526
John Hope Franklin Reconciliation Park 1,474 1,474
Renewed calls for restitution 8,153 8,153
President Biden's 2021 visit 1,249 1,249
Tulsa Historical Society and Museum 1,135 1,135
Present-day Black Wall Street 1,428 1,428
In popular culture 63 13,876
Literature 3,747 3,747
Film and television 7,674 7,674
Music and art 2,392 2,392
See also 797 797
References 289 289
Bibliography 4,909 4,909
Further reading 3,450 3,450
External links 2,778 2,778
Total 174,687 174,687

KKK and ABB

Three links which are of historical relevance are:


https://en.wikipedia.org/Tulsa_Benevolent_Association


https://en.wikipedia.org/African_Blood_Brotherhood


https://revolutionsnewsstand.com/2023/02/10/the-tulsa-riot-by-commander-tulsa-post-african-blood-brotherhood-from-the-crusader-vol-4-no-5-july-1921/


The first link confirms that the KKK chapter in Tulsa was only founded in January 1922, seven months after the Tulsa riot/massacre.

The second two links concern the largely forgotten activities of the militant African Blood Brotherhood and its presence in Tulsa in 1921.

Buck Franklin in his autobiography confirms the presence of political agitators in Greenwood although he does not expressly identify them as ABB activists. 89.243.78.236 (talk) 13:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

New 123-page DOJ report. Can this PDF be embedded and made accessible?

News articles:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/11/us/tulsa-race-massacre-report.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/01/10/tulsa-massacre-report/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/10/tulsa-race-massacre-report-doj
https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/local-regional/2025-01-10/doj-credible-reports-that-law-enforcement-participated-in-murder-during-race-massacre
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/5080213-tulsa-race-massacre-justice-report/

Official links to the Department of Justice report:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-results-review-and-evaluation-tulsa-race-massacre
https://www.justice.gov/crt/case/ac-jackson

The 123-page report (PDF document):
https://www.justice.gov/crt/media/1383756/dl

Can this file be embedded and directly included for viewing to the side of the Misplaced Pages article text? 172.56.12.167 (talk) 16:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I've added the report to Further reading. I don't know of a way to embed it and question whether that's even appropriate. Schazjmd (talk) 17:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Embedding it here would be inappropriate. But it could live at Wikisource? --jpgordon 18:19, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I recommend that the article note that the report released on January 10, 2025, was amended and improved, according to the January 17, 2025 memorandum approved by the Chief, Criminal Section, Civil Rights Division. https://www.justice.gov/crt/media/1383756/dl.Mahoopes (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

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