| Revision as of 02:21, 27 May 2024 editChess (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers11,268 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 07:54, 15 January 2025 edit undoMediaWiki message delivery (talk | contribs)Bots3,142,123 edits →The Signpost: 15 January 2025: new sectionTag: MassMessage delivery | ||
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== ''The Signpost'': 10 January 2024 == | ||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-01-10}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 1--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 12:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| ] | |||
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| == ''The Signpost'': 31 January 2024 == | |||
| Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Misplaced Pages, Gitz6666! I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for ]. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may still benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Misplaced Pages: | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-01-31}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 2--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 15:13, 31 January 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
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| * ] | |||
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| * ] | |||
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| * ] (newcomer help) | |||
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| {{Div col end}} | |||
| Need some ideas of what kind of things need doing? Try the ]. | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 13 February 2024 == | |||
| If you don't already know, you should sign your posts on ] by using four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) to insert your username and the date. | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-02-13}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 3--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 04:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| I hope you enjoy editing here and being a ]! Again, welcome! ''']'''<span style="visibility:hidden; color:transparent; padding-left:2px">{{zero width joiner}}</span><sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)<!-- Template:Welcome-belated --> | |||
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| == March 2024 GAN backlog drive == | |||
| ==Arrivederci altrove== | |||
| Caro {{Reply to|Pequod76}} ti rispondo qui, anziché sulla tua talk, perché mi sono accorto che questa risposta, anche se è per te, non è solo per te. Preferisco quindi questo spazio. <br> | |||
| Su una cosa voglio rassicurarti subito. Non ho rinunciato affatto alla “battaglia di principio” più importante, scrivere l'enciclopedia. Semplicemente, penso di poterla portare avanti altrove, in modo più proficuo e meno stressante: qui su en.wiki, spero, e in altri luoghi di ricerca. La mia risposta a Gianfranco è stata ben ponderata, era pronta da tempo e sono fiducioso che mi porterà più felicità e lavoro produttivo. L'adesione al progetto quindi non è cessata, si è solo trasferita di sede.<br> | |||
| La verità è che collaborare con voi è troppo faticoso, almeno per me. Non mi riferisco a te personalmente: tu sei prezioso, Pequod, sai quanto ti stimo. E come per te, ho stima per molti altri: '''], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]''' e chissà quanti ne dimentico (ho ovviamente perso le mie pagine di discussione). Posso collaborare benissimo anche con persone con cui sono spesso in disaccordo, come '''Kirk39, TrinacrianGolem o Tommasucci'''. Persino '''Ignis''' ho molto rivalutato col tempo: penso che la colpa di quel che è successo tra noi sia soprattutto nella patologica insufficienza dei meccanismi di soluzione dei conflitti su it.wiki. E non mi riferisco alla mancanza dell'ArbCom, ma al fatto che gli admin di regola si astengono, se possibile, dalle discussioni tra un collega e un utente sconosciuto, sospetto "problematico", e quando partecipano evitano di prendere apertamente posizione a favore di quest'ultimo. Altro che ArbCom, su it.wiki non ci sono nemmeno la mediazione e la RdP! Come possono funzionare bene le cose così?<br> | |||
| Ho fatto questo elenco (incompleto) di utenti perché mi dispiace non averli potuti salutare e in alcuni casi nemmeno conoscere, cioè non abbiamo quasi interagito. Mi piacerebbe trovare un modo per far loro arrivare il mio congedo e ringraziamento (puoi aiutarmi in questo?). Avete utenti preziosi su it.wiki ma l’ambiente – soprattutto l’adminship e alcune utenze storiche – è spesso inospitale. Potrei sbagliare su questo, ma sono convinto che la ragione sia che, non essendovi mai dati delle procedure, non siete nemmeno riusciti a sviluppare una cultura interna della ''fairness'': nessun tipo di equanimità e distacco. In mancanza di procedure, qualsiasi tipo di autorità – anche quella che si basa sul prestigio, sull’esperienza e dedizione al progetto – prima o poi è condannata ad essere “cricca”, cioè potere arbitrario personale. Lo è agli occhi degli outsider, che facilmente si sentono umiliati e trattati ingiustamente, e lo è nei fatti. <br> | |||
| L’ultimo episodio non voglio commentarlo, tanto è chiaro e lampante. Dopo quel che è successo su quella pagina, che è sotto gli occhi di tutti, il cartellino giallo me lo becco io? Anzi, due cartellini gialli, se consideriamo la vicenda del Manuale di stile. Come è possibile giustificare quel genere di aggressioni? Rispondimi Pequod, per favore: ti sembrano conformi alle linee-guida del progetto o sono abusi? Se pensi che quei cartellini gialli e tutta la dinamica che li ha prodotti siano giustificabili, allora ha pienamente ragione Gianfranco: ''incompatibilità con il Progetto'' (non però ''violazione irredimibile della WikiQuette'', quella no: io sono sempre stato testardo, ma educato e rispettoso con tutti). <br> | |||
| Comunque in quell’ambiente non posso lavorare sereno, e non riesco a pensare una ragione per restare. Da tempo le persone che mi vogliono bene si stupiscono e mi chiedono chi me lo faccia fare: perché accettare quelle dinamiche degradanti, avendo del resto io altre cose importanti di cui occuparmi (due figlie, una moglie e un lavoro)? Alla fine a questa domanda non sono più riuscito a trovare una risposta sensata, di qui la decisione di andarmene. Ma, ti ripeto, non ho nessuna intenzione di rinunciare alla “battaglia”: il mio andarmene è un “arrivederci altrove”. Ti auguro buon tutto, spero che prima o poi riusciate a risolvere i problemi che vi travagliano e che, temo, non coincidono con la mia contribuzione (quella ve la siete tolta), problemi che potrebbero tormentare altri utenti in futuro come lo hanno fatto in passato. Ma se tu avessi bisogno di qualcosa, wikipidianamente parlando, mi trovi qui. Non ho nessun rancore verso di te e spero che ci potremo incontrare ancora.<br> | |||
| P.S. e fate qualcosa per la storia dei concetti, su! Il mio STUB fa schifo e non è pubblicabile, IMHO, ma il tema merita il lavoro di qualcuno, prima o poi. --] (]) (]) 09:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Ti ringrazio per la tua risposta. Mi spiace che tu abbia vissuto così male il tuo tempo su it.wiki. sono lontano dal pensare che gli amministratori di it.wiki siano perfetti o infallibili. Solo ritengo che una convivenza poteva essere cercata e trovata, sviluppando una fiducia reciproca. Ora non posso dilungarmi. Intanto un caro saluto. ] (]) 10:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] Volevo chiederti: ci sarebbe modo di avere (ovviamente via email) un copia-e-incolla della mia user page su it.wiki? Stupidamente non ho pensato di farla, anche se Gianfranco mi ha lasciato il tempo, credo proprio per questa ragione (o forse per recuperare la sandbox). Come sai, usavo la mia user page come "diario di viaggio", con appunti sulle cose che via via facevo o su cui intervenivo. Ho una pessima memoria e devo usare supporti esterni. Sarebbe possibile riaverla, ad uso di archivio personale? ] (]) (]) 11:29, 21 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::Mi dispiace molto, davero molto per quello che è successo. E mi fa ritornare in mente un altro utente prezioso che abbiamo perso, come Xinstalker. Mi sono permessa di inserire i link alle persone che dicevi che avresti voluto salutare (in questo modo arrivano a loro le notifiche), ti ringrazio per la stima, la stessa che ho nei tuoi confronti. Trovi la tua pagina utente , così te la puoi salvare. Un abbraccio, ci vediamo in giro, non ti perderò di vista, stai certo. --] (]) 20:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ciao Gitz, volevo solo dirti che mi dispiace per quanto successo : quando un utente vive male la sua contribuzione all'enciclopedia, tanto da pensare di non poter cercare e raggiungere una convivenza e che andarsene sia la scelta migliore, sicuramente qualcosa non ha funzionato. E ogni utente che se ne va è una perdita per it.wiki. Spero che ti sentirai più a tuo agio nel continuare a contribuire qui. Un saluto! --] (]) 23:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Cara @], grazie. Ti confesso una cosa: in una prima stesura del messaggio qui sopra, ti avevo indicata tra le utenze che volevo ringraziare e salutare. Poi ho tolto il nome perché ho pensato che mi avresti considerato pazzo: a parte una volta, in cui mi hai dato un’indicazione per la questione degli interlink di Sofistica (se non sbaglio), non abbiamo mai avuto occasione di collaborare. Ma io “da lontano” ho apprezzato il tuo stile (senza contare che sei genovese come me) e quindi questo tuo messaggio mi fa piacere – grazie. ] (]) (]) 00:38, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ti ringrazio @] per la pagina utente! Mi hai consentito di ritrovare anche le pagine di discussione (non sapevo che fosse possibile) e quindi le tracce di alcune utenze che avevo dimenticato nei ringraziamenti: '''Dapifer''' e '''Bologai''', di cui ho molta stima, '''Gambo7''', '''Threecharlie''', '''Bultro''' e '''Lorenzo Longo''', che sono stati utili e gentili, '''Popop''', con cui ho potuto interagire in modo civile anche quando in disaccordo, e soprattutto la cara '''Geoide''', che mi aveva dato qualche consiglio tempo fa, e le cui vecchie conversazioni ho potuto leggere per iniziare a conoscere il modo wikipediano. Che peccato che si sia allontanata dal progetto – anche lei, temo, amareggiata. Quanto al confronto che fai tra me e Xinstalker, è ovviamente sbagliato e troppo generoso: lui ha contribuito alla vita e ai contenuti di it.wiki 100 volte più di me, nessun paragone è possibile. Ma il confronto è calzante in questo: l’UP con la quale è stato infinitato è il segnale di un problema. Mi aveva colpito e, assieme ad altri materiali letti nel tempo e alle mie esperienze personali, aveva contribuito a formare la mia cattiva opinione delle modalità di soluzione dei conflitti di it.wiki. Leggendo quell’UP una cosa è chiara come il sole: una decisone presa in quel modo non è tale da poter essere accettata come legittima da chi non ne condiva già il contenuto. Ma le procedure non servono (solo) a prendere meno decisioni sbagliate, servono anche a far accettare le decisioni (giuste o sbagliate che siano) a chi non le condivide nel merito. Le cose non possono funzionare così e da questo punto di vista, e solo da questo, il confronto tra me e Xinstalker, tra i miei due cartellini gialli e la sua UP, è convincente. Ma soprattutto, cara Camelia, grazie di cuore per il tuo lavoro su it.wiki, di cui ho capito bene l’importanza per molte/i. La tua stima mi onora. Un abbraccio, ] (]) (]) 00:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| {| style="border: 5px solid #ABCDEF ; background-color: #FFF; padding:10px 15px 0" | |||
| == Messaggio per te == | |||
| |style="padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em; font-size:130%" |'''] |''' <span style="font-size:85%">March 2024 Backlog Drive</span> | |||
| |rowspan=3|] | |||
| |- | |||
| |'''March 2024 Backlog Drive:''' | |||
| * On 1 March, a one-month backlog drive for good article nominations will begin. | |||
| * Barnstars will be awarded. | |||
| * Interested in taking part? You can ''']''' or ''']'''. | |||
| |- | |||
| |colspan=2 style="font-size:85%; padding-top:15px;"|You're receiving this message because you have reviewed or nominated a good article in the last year. | |||
| |} (] · ]) ''']''' 02:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| == ''The Signpost'': 2 March 2024 == | |||
| Ciao Gitz6666, non ho pratica di questa wiki, ma ti voglio esprimere la mia vicinanza e il rammarico di aver ricevuto la segnalazione della discussione sull'arbitrato troppo tardi. Io non credo di contare gran che in it.wiki, ma il tuo lavoro sul Protestantesimo ha fatto nascere in me la speranza che si potesse collaborare, tu su quel versante, io su quello cattolico. Ti stimo per la caratura delle tue capacità e per aver sognato una realtà più concreta, umana, tollerante. Ti abbraccio e mi auguro che si facciano avanti anche altri: grazie di tutto. --] (]) 17:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-03-02}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 4--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 11:01, 2 March 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| :@] Ti ringrazio per il messaggio affettuoso. Ho apprezzato le nostre discussioni e soprattutto la qualità eccellente del tuo lavoro: it.wiki è davvero fortunata ad averti. Mi rammarico che là non sarà più possibile cooperare, ma ogni tanto verrò a vedere come procede il vostro lavoro (silenziosamente - ca va sans dire). Se in futuro avrai bisogno della mia cooperazione wikipediana, mi trovi qui e sarò sempre disponibile per te! Un caro saluto, ] (]) (]) 18:17, 23 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
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| ::Hai anche la stima di un atea, ho apprezzato molto i tuoi commenti sulle ultime voci sulle quali ha lavorato {{ping|LorManLor}} e che sono state poi dichiarate di qualità. La misura con le queli lo hai fatto, l'approfondimento e la citazione colta. A presto 🤗. --] (]) 20:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::<small>In realtà @], @], @], anch’io sono ateo come Camelia. Sono finito a occuparmi di Lutero e di luterani su it.wiki quasi per puro caso, perché mi interessa l’età moderna e la costruzione dello stato. Di nuovo grazie per tutto, un abbraccio e buon lavoro su it.wiki!</small> ] (]) (]) 00:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ciao Gitz, sono molto molto dispiaciuta per quello che è successo, sia dal punto di vista umano che per la perdita per it.wiki della collaborazione di un utente così prezioso come te, ritengo sia uno spreco terribile che doveva essere evitato in tutti i modi. Grazie per la tua competenza, gentilezza, e anche sì, testardaggine nel sostenere il tuo punto di vista, che ritengo legittimo e motivato. Spero possiamo incrociarci ancora, auguri per tutto, un fortissimo abbraccio.] (]) 12:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Grazie @] per il messaggio gentile e per le tre belle voci di cui ho potuto discutere con te. Complimenti per il bel lavoro e per i riconoscimenti meritatissimi! Un abbraccio, ] (]) (]) 12:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | |||
| Mi unisco anche io, dato che ora è toccato a me un blocco che trovo eccessivo.--] (]) 11:23, 11 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ]Your feedback is requested  at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) | Is this wrong? Contact ]. | Sent at 05:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Tre mesi di blocco per aver fatto gli auguri di buona Pasqua? Mi spiace, @], non ti amareggiare e lasciali perdere. --] (]) (]) 12:05, 11 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 29 March 2024 == | |||
| ::Ti ringrazio. Un saluto anche ad ], qui sopra di me, sperando porti avanti il suo lavoro che avevo già notato in molte occasioni.--] (]) 12:08, 11 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::Caro @], toglimi una curiosità. Che cosa avevi scritto di così intollerabile nella pagina "Controversie legate a Misplaced Pages" poco prima di essere bloccato per 3 mesi per aver fatto gli auguri di Pasqua? Mi riferisco alla "Modifica decisamente fuori luogo", che è stata addirittura oscurata. ] (]) (]) 16:21, 14 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-03-29}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 5--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 22:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| == Mi spiace... == | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1216007342 --> | |||
| ... di essermi accorto di quanto stava accadendo quando ormai la frittata era fatta. Forse (e sottolineo <u>forse</u>!) avrei potuto provare a darti qualche umile consiglio su come porti in certi frangenti, ossia astenersi dal rimbeccare a caldo, contare fino a mille e magari cambiare pagina e passare a occuparsi d'altro. In parte scherzo, e in parte no. Normale che ci siano vedute diverse tra gli utenti di una wiki, come pure tra wiki diverse. Se in tante wiki l'arbitrato è già una realtà, questo non significa che debba essere presente anche su it.wiki. Forse, banalmente, i tempi non sono maturi, inutile incaponirsi per accelerarli, ammesso pure che un giorno ci arriveremo, inutile un muro contro muro che ha spesso conseguenze spiacevoli, molto spiacevoli. Ci sono cose che io non condivido, ma <u>'''SE'''</u> l'obiettivo primario è collaborare al Progetto, tutto il resto deve passare in secondo piano, accettiamo serenamente anche le regole che meno ci piacciono e ''tiremm innanz''. Pensa che giusto ieri sera t'avevo mandato un ping per Caravaggio, sperando così di risolvere un aspetto che avevi segnalato, e quando Tommasucci mi ha fatto notare quello che era successo sono rimasto senza parole. Ti esprimo il mio sincero apprezzamento per come ti ho visto operare nella rubrica e ti saluto cordialmente. --] (]) 09:18, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ==Santi Romano== | |||
| P.S.: peccato, davvero peccato per come è andata, ma lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile. | |||
| {{GOCEtb|article=Santi Romano|sign=Cheers, ''']''' 01:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 25 April 2024 == | |||
| : Caro {{Reply to|Er Cicero}}, grazie per il messaggio. Non dubito che tu abbia ragione: in molte occasioni avrei potuto evitare di replicare. Si è trattato di botta e risposta in cui a replicare eravamo in due, e credo che i miei toni fossero meno aggressivi e inappropriati di quelli del mio interlocutore, ma è certo che <u>'''SE'''</u> avessi avuto una più forte spinta a rimanere su it.wiki, mi sarei dovuto comportare diversamente. E anche sull'arbitrato è probabile che tu abbia ragione. Più che proporre una soluzione determinata (l'arbitrato), forse non utile né attuabile, io intendevo richiamare l'attenzione su un problema secondo me reale; ma chissà che certi comportamenti prevaricatori, contrari alle linee guida, non possano essere affrontati senza bisogno di nuove regole, con la collaborazione di tutti, prima di "escalare" in conflitti distruttivi, che fanno male a tutti. Unica cosa, non capisco a che cosa ti riferisci con ''lo sbrocco è stato imperdonabile''; se ti riferisci alla mia risposta a Gianfranco, forse è stata imperdonabile ma - come spiegavo qui sopra a Pequod - ti assicuro che non è stata uno sbrocco. A parte questo, sono felice di potermi congratulare con te per l'ottimo lavoro che ti ho visto fare in questi mesi nelle procedure di qualità. Non è un lavoro facile e si regge in gran parte sulle tue spalle. Complimenti! --] (]) (]) 09:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::Beh, secondo me "non mi interessa collaborare con dei prepotenti (o meglio, sotto il dominio dei prepotenti,...)" te lo potevi risparmiare, così come la chiosa ironica "Buon divertimento nel piccolo mondo virtuale che vi siete inventati, spero che siate contenti del vostro lavoro". E' stato un modo per chiedere tu stesso di chiudere la tua esperienza su it.wiki (almeno a me così pare). E non posso che rammaricarmene. Buon tutto. --] (]) 10:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::In effetti ammetto che avrei voluto correggere quel messaggio in questo modo: "piccolo/grande mondo virtuale" (perché è una piccola comunità, è vero, ma si affaccia su un grande mondo ed è impegnata in un lavoro grande) e "vi auguro di essere soddisfatti del vostro lavoro" (anziché "spero che siate contenti", che è sarcastico, mentre l'augurio può essere sincero). Avrei invece lasciato la parte sui "prepotenti" perché, al di là delle buone intenzioni dei singoli, la credo vera. Ho provato a correggere il testo in questo modo, ma era già troppo tardi - per quel che vale, lo faccio ora. Grazie di nuovo e saluti, ] (]) (]) 10:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::scusami, avevo dimenticato di pingarti @] ] (]) (]) 11:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-04-25}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 6--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 11:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| Hospes tantum nequeo Franca decisa reprehendere ac nolo, sed tu, ὦ Gitz, ignosces mihi. --] (]) 21:00, 24 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
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| :@], ]. Ti risponderei, per continuare il gioco, . Guarda però che io sono persona mitissima, solo con poca attitudine a farmi maltrattare per nessuna ragione. Non sono un attaccabrighe, ma la massima a cui cerco di attenermi sempre è: se un lavoro non dà gioia, tientene lontano. Per il resto, come ho detto a Pequod, "collige quae ] ne pereant". Lui però nemmeno su questo si è mostrato molto sollecito… cioè non si è voluto far rifilare la patacca! Vedi tu. Un caro saluto, ] (]) (]) 00:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::Traduco, in caso ci fosse un amico che ci legge: "il potere, per chi ha caro il potere, non ammette trasgressione. La tua ira, che decide da sé, ti ha perduta" (Antigone) e "Raccogli le briciole avanzate, perché niente si perda" (da Giovanni 6:12). ] (]) (]) 00:34, 25 January 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Elizabeth Stanhope, Countess of Chesterfield == | |||
| Good day Gitz6666. Thank you very much for your attention to the article ]. Few editors seem to add citations and your contribution is therefore especially precious and welcome. Unluckily, you seem to have the wrong lady. The description of a beautiful lady on page 141, which you cite, is that of Miss Hamilton. Lady Chesterfield is described on p 167. Besides, you cite the book as <nowiki>{{Cite book|last=Hamilton|first=Anthony|url=https://archive.org/details/memoirscountgram00hamimiss/page/n175/mode/2up|title=Memoirs of Count Grammont|publisher=E.L. Carey & A. Hart|year=1836|location=Philadelphia|pages=141|author-link=Antoine Hamilton}}</nowiki> I do not find a publication date on this edition and the title page indicates that the publisher is David McKay and not E.L. Carey & A. Hart as you say. Where did you get the information from? I edited the article and corrected the page citing from the Gebbie edition of 1888, which is better documented but identical for the rest. How did you get to ]? Do you have a special interest in her or in ] and his book? Best regards, ] (]) 15:59, 23 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Your submission at ]: ] has been accepted == | |||
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| ] (]) 14:02, 6 March 2022 (UTC)</div><!--Template:Afc talk--> | |||
| == Re:peggio della politica == | |||
| Thanks! I replied to you by e-mail. --] (]) 19:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Talk typo? == | |||
| I think you may have meant {{tq|I will open a ''thread''...}} in your recent comment at ] but it currently says something quite different. --] 01:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Infobox == | |||
| Ciao, perdonami, ma qui non abbiamo le categorie automatiche dei template sinottici?--] (]) 17:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Ciao @], mi hai colto in castagna! Ti confesso che a leggere "categorie automatiche dei template sinottici" sono rimasto basito: per me è aramaico, non ho idea di che cosa tu stia parlando. Allora mi sono messo a studiare e posso dirti questo: | |||
| :1. Alla tua domanda non so rispondere. | |||
| :2. Questa è la linea guida del manuale di stile sulle infoboxes (template sinottici): ], questa è la linea guida sulla categorizzazione: ], questa è la pagina di aiuto sulle categorie: ], questo è un "saggio" su quando non fare un infobox perché è inutile: ] (su it.wiki non esistono i saggi; si tratta di opinioni e consigli non vincolanti, spesso confutati da altri saggi di segno contrario, come questo "inclusionista" sugli infoboxes, ]),. | |||
| :3. Qui trovi una pagina di aiuto molto generale su come iniziare a collaborare con en.wiki: ] e qui trovi una pagina di aiuto su come fare domande, richieste di informazioni e di aiuto, ecc.: ]. Come vedi, sulla destra c'è "Personal help on your talk page": formuli una domanda e un editor ti risponde sulla tua pagina discussioni utente (user talk page). | |||
| :P.S. Su en.wiki puoi cancellare tutto quello che vuoi dalla tua talk page, quindi se la tua domanda è sbagliata o la risposta non è utile, la puoi cancellare tranquillamente. | |||
| :Ciao, ] (]) (]) 22:24, 22 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Outstanding article == | |||
| Hi, I'm GizzyCatBella. I came across an article ] you created, and I've read it with great interest. I believe this is an excellent article, well sourced, flawlessly formatted, immaculate. Thank you very much. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 10:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you so much @] for your kind message! This truly means a lot to me. I have spent a good deal of time on that article, I hadn't received any feedback so far and I was a bit disappointed about that. I had also asked a peer review but none has answered my call and the review is still deserted: ] and ]. You cheered my up! Thank you. Any help in improving the article (starting from the quality of the English, which is not my mother tongue) is more than welcome. ] (]) (]) 15:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ==] nomination of ]== | |||
| ] | |||
| {{Quote box|quote=<p>If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read ].</p><p>You may want to consider using the ] to help you create articles.</p>|width=20%|align=right}} | |||
| Hello, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on ] requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under ], because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, a question that should have been asked at the ] or ] desks, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see ] for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on ] subjects and should provide references to ] that ] their content. | |||
| If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may '''contest the nomination''' by ] and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with ]. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the {{Querylink|Special:Log|qs=type=delete&page=Edwin+Montefiore+Borchard|deleting administrator}}, or if you have already done so, you can place a request ]. <!-- Template:Db-nocontent-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> — ] (]) 00:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello @], I've made a mistake. I intended to create a redirect, so I should have written <nowiki>#REDIRECT ]</nowiki>; instead I wrote <nowiki>{{Redirect|Edwin Borchard}}</nowiki>. I've made the same mistake with ] and now I've corrected it. Thanks, ] (]) (]) 00:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi! I've turned ] into a redirect per your comment above and I've removed the speedy deletion tag. — ] (]) 00:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Indiscriminate attack(s) == | |||
| The draft at ] for '''Indiscriminate attack(s)''' looks good and very likely to survive any notability challenges, IMHO, though I see it's still in draft stage. There might be a debate about how similar articles in Misplaced Pages are named - as singular or plural. Singular is more like a dictionary definition, and plural is more about "the thing in general" - that's my impression, at least for categories. But mainspace usage will count more than category style. This is an obviously important article. There are some fields of knowledge where en.Misplaced Pages is still missing many key articles. ] (]) 16:35, 23 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you for your message @]. Unfortunately I haven't worked on that draft for a while, but I'll do my best to finish it in the next few days. I'm sure the topic is notable enough and I'm happy to help filling a gap. Re singular/plural I haven't thought about it, I've now made a quick search on similar articles (e.g human shield, hostage) and singular seems prevailing but I don't have strong views on this - if you think plural is best, I'll follow your advice. I'll let you know when the article is published and I'd be grateful if you will edit it or add it to your watchlist. Best, ] (]) (]) 20:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't have strong views on it either - so I suggest sticking to the singular when you have time to get back to it. ] (]) 22:07, 23 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hello @], yesterday I published a first draft of the article ], but I'm still working on a section on "history" and on the images. If you want to edit it or add it to your watchlist, that's great. ] (]) (]) 20:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Indiscriminate attacks == | |||
| I've just tweaked two of your recent edits re this; see the edit summary , which mentions the other edit. What I've done here probably needs improvement in both articles edited. The ] article might also need improvement, as suggested there. ] ] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 22:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, @], you're right. I'm working on a section "History" in the article on Indiscriminate attack but it will probably be irrelevant to the articles on the Philippine–American War. They a contemporary terminology to refer to events that happened before the criminalisation of indiscriminate attacks and/or use a generic, non-legal sense of "indiscriminate attack". IN both cases a wikilink would not be useful. ] (]) (]) 22:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi. Thanks for the response. This area is of some interest to me as it relates to the the U.S. military in the Philippines from 1898 to 1910ish, but it is not a focus area. Re the U.S., it seems to go back to Lieber, Lincoln, , and the ]. c. 1863. Googling, I turned up some things which might or might not interest you. You've probably seen them, but I'll mantion a couple of them just in case: (particularly Rules 11-14). Other items caught my eye, but I have not been able to quickly locate them again. Cheers. ] ] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 09:35, 7 August 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Hugo Krabbe == | |||
| Hi Gitz, I've seen you created the article on Hugo Krabbe and wanted it to be reviewed. What I mention is just what I see as good on wikipedia, but I had rather good experiences with this. I tend to add a source for each phrase (except for the lead). The article seems to have solid sources and if you could add a source to the end of each phrase the article might catch more interest from a potential reviewer. I do not though offer myself as reviewer, this is just some advice as I wouldn't be encouraged to review in this state. But from my point of view the article sure has a potential for a GA and judging from the sources you are not far from it. ] (]) 19:42, 27 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you for the suggestion @], it's much appreciated. As soon as I can, I'll do my best to comply with it, although I might have lost a bit of touch with the sources I used when I wrote the article, which was a few months ago - I forget quickly. It's a pity though that you don't offer yourself as reviewer, as you've already given me a good advice. All the best, ] (]) (]) 20:22, 27 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{done}} ] (]) (]) 21:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Unclosed break tag == | |||
| Hello, Gitz6666. Thanks for your comment at ]. I ] of modifying the break tags in your comment to <code><nowiki><br/></nowiki></code>, because an unclosed break tag screws up ] for the remainder of any page upon which it appears. In general, you should just ] in your comments. If you're in a situation where you think a break tag is required and a blank line just won't do for some reason, then please either close your break tag with a slash, or even better, use the mini-template {{tl|br}} instead, which has some other advantages as well (see the doc). Thanks, and happy editing! ] (]) 19:43, 9 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :@], thank you for editing my comment and thank you also for the explanation, which is very useful. ] (]) (]) 20:06, 9 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Help needed == | |||
| I am currently working on an article about treatment of POWs in the war in Ukraine (the main war crimes article is too big, "war crime" also doesn't cover everything on mistreatment of POWs apparently, as exposure of POWs by Ukraine and mistreatment by both sides weren't included in the main article, similar with 'no quarter' orders), but, as expected, it won't be an easy job, i have made a sketch on my sandbox (]), i'd appreciate if you could hop by there and maybe help me with some things. | |||
| the main problem right now is to change some stuff, because, as of right now, it is kind of a copy-paste of the section in the war crimes article with a few changes, i also couldn't find the content on exposure/mistreatment of POWs and 'no quarter' orders in the war crimes article (it was removed, but i cant find anything on it in the page history), so, if you can find that, feel free to add it. | |||
| thanks in advance. ] (]) 00:31, 27 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :@] Thank you for this. I see that you've already done an excellent work. Now I'm going to bed but tomorrow or better on Monday I will help, if I can. Since the subject is not torture but more inclusively ill-treatment, public exposure of POWs is relevant here. Please have a look at this sandbox where you'll find contents on this: ]. Look for "Humiliation of captured" ] (]) (]) 02:13, 27 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hello @], yesterday I managed to do some editing on the article draft - I hope it was helpful. Sorry it took me a while but I was overloaded with this tormenting affair, our self-inflicted torture: ]. I think your article is almost finished and ready to be published, you just need to improve the lead by summarising the contents of the body, as per MOS:LEAD, at which point it will be a great relief for ], as we will probably remove the whole section and replace it with the lead of your article. Thank you again for the "help request" and the good wiki-work. ] (]) (]) 10:27, 30 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hi @], what happened to your draft? It looks ready to me, why don't you publish it? Since you're working on the subject of POWs, you might be interested in this video . It's a ], so we shouldn't use it, but you can look for secondary sources mentioning this video and, if they are reliable, report it in your article. ] (]) (]) 01:38, 12 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yeah i kinda forgot about it, im going to publish it. ] (]) 16:16, 12 December 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | ||
| ]Your feedback is requested  at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) | Is this wrong? Contact ]. | Sent at |
]Your feedback is requested  at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) | Is this wrong? Contact ]. | Sent at 14:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC) | ||
| == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | ||
| ]Your feedback is requested  at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) | Is this wrong? Contact ]. | Sent at |
]Your feedback is requested  at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) | Is this wrong? Contact ]. | Sent at 08:30, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | ||
| == Reminder to vote now to select members of the first U4C == | |||
| == My works == | |||
| <section begin="announcement-content" /> | |||
| Hi, great personality, I submit my work for your approval. Please let me know if they disapprove. Let me work on them again. https://tr.wikipedia.org/%C3%96zel:ContentTranslation#published ] (]) 08:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :''] '' | |||
| Dear Wikimedian, | |||
| :Hello @], I did not understand your comment. Why are you sharing the link to some translations I made using the ]? Translating on en.Misplaced Pages is fine, but it must be done in line with policy and guidelines, e.g. the following one from ]: {{tqb|Misplaced Pages consensus is that '''an unedited machine translation, left as a Misplaced Pages article, is worse than nothing'''.}} | |||
| :By the way, did you edit ] and ] recently? ] (]) (]) 09:34, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::If {{Diff2|1137972429|the edit I just reverted}} is your doing, @], then you should stop: multiple editors on multiple projects have already told you that adding automatically translated content to articles whose content you can't understand is disruptive and is bound to lead to blocks. ] (]) (]) 10:06, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::None of my edits were turned down for technical reasons. Religious vandalism and yours. I haven't been able to understand you yet. ] (]) 10:23, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::OK, I can see: you don't understand me, @]. Please, let me know if you understand the following users: | |||
| ::::* On tr.wiki, ]: {{tq|Bununla beraber, lütfen İçerik Çevirmeni aracı, çeşitli programlar ya da web sayfaları aracılığıyla Türkçe dışında bir dilden çevirisi yapılmış sayfaları, anlaşılırlık ve çeviri doğruluğu konusunda gerekli kontrollerde bulunmadan Vikipedi'ye eklemeyiniz}} . | |||
| ::::* On fr.wiki, ]: {{tq|Ne contribuez pas dans les langues que vous ne maîtrisez pas, les traducteurs automatiques sont loin d'être parfaits. De plus, il est encore plus déconseillé d'ajouter sur plusieurs wiki des information que vous savez être non-consensuelles}} . | |||
| ::::* On fr.wiki, ]: {{tq|N’utilisez pas un traducteur automatique. Si vous voulez qu’un article soit traduit, faites-en la demande au projet idoine}} . | |||
| ::::* On az.wiki, multiple users, e.g. ]: {{tq|Hər vaxtınız xeyir. Çoxsaylı məzmun əlavələriniz kütləvi qrammatik norma pozuntuları, maşın tərcüməsi elementləri, habelə stil kitabçası pozuntuları ehtiva edir. Sizə bundan öncə də sözügedən məqamlar üzrə həmkarların müraciəti olsa da, fəaliyyətinizdə dəyişiklik müşahidə olunmur}} . | |||
| ::::* On ha.wiki, ]: {{tq|Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages}} | |||
| ::::There also problems of ] and ] with your edits, which have been pointed out to you by several users, e.g. , by myself and , and by others elsewhere . | |||
| ::::If you don't stop this behaviour, I will submit a request for a on Meta. Please spare the Misplaced Pages community and me this hassle. ] (]) (]) 11:31, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I took all the warnings into account and for example, my later works were not seen as problematic by those who made these warnings. ] (]) 11:38, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@], this very recent edit of yours is problematic (and it's also ]). ] (]) (]) 11:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::So ask yourself a simple question: Other people who are at least as smart as me don't see a problem here, and only I can able to see it. ] (]) 12:05, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Your simple question doesn't make sense in English, @], maybe what you meant to say was something like: "ask yourself a simple question: why do other people who are at least as smart as me see no problem, while only I am able to see it?" Well, if that's what you meant, the answer is simple: it's not only me!!! you've been indefinitely blocked on 12 different Wikipedias for god's sake! ar.wiki, tg.wiki, de.wiki, media.wiki, simple.wiki, fr.wiki, ha.wiki, en.wiki, es.wiki, id.wiki, ur.wiki, ps.wiki ; plus the temporary block on it.wiki . Do you really believe that everyone is wrong about you? Why don't you listen to criticism and stop the disruption? ] (]) (]) 12:20, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::We've talked to you too much, and I think I've explained enough. Some of these were my faults, so I wrote that too. The reason I was banned in plain English was because I contributed too much. For many, there is no need to even speak. You can research their level yourself. The advancement of science and communication will overcome these challenges, but it will take time. The point that I regret is the harm that the ignorant masses inflict not only on themselves, but also on humanity. ] (]) 12:34, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::So, I understand that your answer to my questions is: yes, I think everyone is wrong about me (they are "ignorant masses"), and no, I'm not going to stop automatically translating my content and spamming it all over the wiki-world. That's a shame, @], because if you get a global ban, this will also prevent you from editing on tr.wiki, in your own language, where you contribution could be useful and appreciated. Are you aware of this? ] (]) (]) 12:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::"ignorant masses"; What I mean by this is the Islamic-Sharia terrorist organizations that close schools and attack education, and those who have to live under their influence. do not distort. ] (]) 12:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Sorry, it was a misunderstanding on my part, not a deliberate distorion. Please allow me to rephrase your answers so as to achieve full understanding: | |||
| ::::::::::::# You admit that you are also to blame for your blocks, e.g. because you contributed too much to en.wiki. | |||
| ::::::::::::# However, the accusation of spamming automatically translated, unverifiable and non-neutral texts is unfair: the Wikipedias that blocked you for this reason were wrong. | |||
| ::::::::::::# You are not going to stop translating your texts, even though you are aware that if you are blocked globally for this reason, you will not be able to work on tr.wiki either. | |||
| ::::::::::::Please think hard, @], especially about answer No. 3. Do you really think it is worth it? Can't you just stop contributing in languages you don't know? ] (]) (]) 13:15, 7 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::I need to open myself a little more; I am a person who has received religious education for 7 years, can understand Arabic, English and Azerbaijani languages beside Turkish, and is familiar with religious (Islamic) concepts and idioms in other languages. I think that the prevention and restoration of destructive acts of religious character, which are constantly occurring in the Islamic world and from time to time in the rest of the world, are possible with adequate and accurate information. I contribute to this. However, it was a difficult road. For about 1 year, I have been following a much simpler way (also recommended by wikipedia) such as contributing by translating and providing clarity with minor changes and corrections. I do not engage in mutual combat for my withdrawn contributions. I am not pessimistic about the future. ] (]) 07:37, 8 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::I also want to be honest and open, @]. I have no religious belief and personally don't find your goal blameworthy. Providing also a secular and scientifically-minded reading of religious phenomena is vital for an encyclopaedia that aims at live up to ]. But this can only be done with ] at hand and, most importantly, ]. Since I don't speak Chinese, Uzbek and Swedish, I don't think that my secular and scientifically-minded views are so important that they deserve to be shared with readers of the Chinese, Uzbek and Swedish Wikipedias; they wouldn't understand me anyway. So, please, listen: I've spent hours cleaning up the mess you've done on it.wiki, fr.wiki, en.wiki and es.wiki. If you speak Turkish, Arabic, English and Azerbaijani, as you say, than please limit your contribution to the corresponding projects, otherwise I will request a global ban for you and that might prevent you from editing also where you contribution is appreciated. OK? ] (]) (]) 10:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::I reviewed my old contributions to see if they are still in place. They are vandalized in some languages. I have seen that they are preserved in Chinese, Hindi, Japanese, Korean, etc. languages that I do not know and do not understand a word of. Can you interpret this? ] (]) 10:15, 10 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::What do you mean by "vandalized"? I can see that your edits were removed by "local" editors. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::* On zh.wiki I made one edit in the Quran article talk page . Your edits were reverted (if I'm not wrong) by ]. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::* On ja.wiki I made one very clumsy edit in the article namespace, which actually ''restored your edits'' . Luckily my edit was reverted, and I apologised and explained my mistake on an user talk page . Your edits had already been reverted by that user, ]. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::* I've never edited on ko.wik. As far as I can see, most of your edits were reverted by ], e.g. (with edit summary "out of context") and (claiming that your content was factually wrong - unverifiable). | |||
| ::::::::::::::::You see, @], your edits were reverted (not "vandalized") because they were of poor quality. Even ], you're bound to make lots of mistakes because you don't speak Chinese, Japanese or Korean: it's inevitable. Let me ask you again: are you sure you don't want to stop this disruption? ] (]) (]) 11:03, 10 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::You may also be interested in knowing that all your edits on ky.wikipedia (Kyrgyz Misplaced Pages) have been reverted: . Note that I've never edited there. And most of your edit on tg.wiki (Tajik Misplaced Pages), where you're currently blocked, have also been removed . ] (]) (]) 11:17, 10 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::I checked again. My Contributions that I made more than 1 year ago are still in place. I say that local users should decide the correctness or irregularity of the expressions, not you. By the way, I was blocked in Tajik, but my translation for the sharia article was approved, the important thing is the result. I would like to say that if those who reverted my contributions or blocked me had told me that I was creating problems in my contributions through language and expression, I would have stopped contributing anyway. For example, there was such a problem in Japanese and I stopped contributing. Still, a few small contributions remain ] (]) 11:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| {{od|:::::::::::::::::::}} You say {{tq|if those who reverted my contributions or blocked me had told me that I was creating problems in my contributions through language and expression, I would have stopped contributing}}. However, here on en.wiki you've been indefintely blocked on article mainspace, and yet you're still contributing from an IP address. How do you explain that? ] (]) (]) 11:49, 10 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Your ] nomination of ] == | |||
| Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've ] the article ] you nominated for ]-status according to the ]. ] This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. <!-- Template:GANotice --> <!-- Template:GANotice --> <small>Message delivered by ], on behalf of ]</small> -- ] (]) 10:40, 11 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| You are receiving this message because you previously participated in the UCoC process. | |||
| == Welcome to the topic... I guess? == | |||
| This is a reminder that the voting period for the Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) ends on May 9, 2024. Read the information on the ] to learn more about voting and voter eligibility. | |||
| Gitz6666, since you've now chosen to start editing articles in the topic area of Poland and the Holocaust (which I'm sure you know is under discretionary sanctions), and since you had never edited this topic area before, I feel compelled to comment. Since replying to this comment may potentially violate your topic ban from the Russian-Ukrainian topics, you do not have to respond, or can respond privately by email - regardless, I personally will not see a reply to this - whatever it says - as a breach of the topic ban, I will not report you anywhere for replying and if someone else does I will defend you on the basis of this message right here. | |||
| The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. Community members were invited to submit their applications for the U4C. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, please ]. | |||
| Let me express my primary concern right at the outset. It is definitely eye-brow raising that you would choose to appear in this topic area immediately after you were topic banned in another topic area, in good part because of the disputes between me and you. This is especially concerning given that I've noted before that you have a tendency to follow me around (stalk) and appear out of the blue on articles I'm involved in. Before this you were doing this across different articles within the same topic area (Russia-Ukraine) now that you got a topic ban there, it involves skipping across topic areas. | |||
| Please share this message with members of your community so they can participate as well. | |||
| Having said that allow me to say I regard you as an smart, constructive and valuable contributor to Misplaced Pages. I do think there are certain parts to your approach which get you into trouble but there's no point in rehashing these. I think it's quite likely that your contributions in this new topic area will be quite valuable as well and welcome your participation. The topic area could definitely use more active editors (if you want a short list of "things need to be done" let me know or ask ]). You have a good nose for sources and write well so there's much you can contribute. My obvious concern is that you are only editing these articles simply because I am involved and that you may hold grudges or vendettas from our interactions in the other topic area. I am 100% willing to put those concerns aside and AGF the hell out of your appearance, precisely because I think you can do a lot of good here. I, personally, do not hold grudges and I'm always ready to turn over a new leaf and collaborate productively with (almost) anyone. | |||
| On behalf of the UCoC project team,<section end="announcement-content" /> | |||
| Like any other contentious area, this topic has a lot of institutional history and context. If you need any help or are simply curious about anything related to the area (like... who is Icewhiz? Just an example) let me know. I do sincerely look forward to your contributions.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 16:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ] 23:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Allow me to congratulate you on the tact and amiability with which you have framed this conversation. I appreciate it very much and it sets me up to be as cooperative and open with you as possible. | |||
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| :First of all, I can assure you that I don't hold any grudge or vendetta against you. I admit that the topic ban left a few scratches on my pride... I particularly resented the attitude of some editors in the discussion that led to it, an attitude that I found uninformed and unnecessarily hostile. That attitude was inexcusable, especially when it came from experienced editors who were already aware of the kind of tendentious editing I had to deal with. But I have no grudge against you, nor against MVBW. You were neither uninformed nor opinionated, but rather deeply engaged in an editorial conflict that was exhausting for everyone. I respect political passion, even when it comes from loyalties and sensibilities different from mine. I have no feeling of enmity towards you and the last thing I want to do is chase you around in Misplaced Pages to personally annoy you. I also sympathise with the recent attack on your privacy and reputation, which I find, as you know, not OK to say the least. | |||
| :It is not true that I {{tq|have a tendency to follow around (stalk) and appear out of the blue on articles involved in}}; on the contrary, I know that you and MVBW were following me around in the area with an uncooperative/blocking attitude. I also know that on several occasions I avoided editing articles and commenting in discussions for the sole reason that you were active there. Bottom line, this shared feeling of being haunted by the other proves that there was an exhausting editorial conflict between us, and I have no desire to resume it. | |||
| :Having said this, I must confess that I was astounded to read the essay on your . I was already familiar with Icewhiz and the ] hoax, I had also already read ] and ], and I had gotten a bad impression from them. But I didn't know that nationalist editing had affected the area so strongly. Confirmation bias is a real danger, so I took the time to check the article history and the talk page discussion at ], ] and ], plus the article ]. What I read in the essay by Grabowski and Klein corresponds closely to my experiences in the area of war crimes in the Ukraine. Tendentious/nationalist editing, uncivility and sealioning, and above all the practice of "working in tandem" by following each other's edits to push a POV cause enormous damage to ] as a working method and ultimately to ] and ] as core polices. I saw this at work, I reacted to it by opening several (too many?) community discussions and I was topic banned. Too bad. | |||
| :However, after the topic ban I have resumed working intensively on it.wiki (yesterday I created this ]) and I have other projects I would like to realise on en.wiki (an article now at GAN now and the filling of a big gap, ]). The idea of resuming that exhausting editorial conflict with you fills me with anguish: it will not happen. In my opinion, after the publication of Grabowski's and Klein's essay, you are in a situation of heavy conflict of interest with this topic: you should take a step back, consider something like a self-imposed topic ban, so that other editors can discuss what needs to be done on these pages in a more serene atmosphere. This is my suggestion for you. As for me, at most I will propose a few edits based on Grabowski and Klein<del>, but I can assure you that my presence in the area will be marginal and practically non-existent</del>. With regard to noticeboard and other general discussions, I will always express my concerns and warn the community of the risk of severe disruption, deviations from our policies and removal of users, resulting from a deeply problematic pattern of behaviour. ] (]) (]) 01:57, 12 February 2023 (UTC) <ins>; edited 10:40, 12 February 2023 (UTC)</ins> | |||
| :: I strike through because obviously I've changed my mind about my commitment in the area and got involved. However, I can still assure you that this has nothing to do with you and that I have no bad feelings towards you. I'm looking forward to reading the second part of the Icewhiz saga on your blog. ] (]) (]) 02:56, 28 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 16 May 2024 == | |||
| So apparently this was a false hope huh? That's what I get for doing the AGF.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:59, 20 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-05-16}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 7--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 10:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| :I don't understand why you doubt my good faith. I really have no hostility towards you. While I don't know you, I sense that in RL we could be, if not friends, at least good colleagues. Your essay on edit war is brilliant and I quite like your humour. I also think that your contribution may be damaging for the encyclopedia, expecially in areas where you have strong views, and it must be kept in check. I might be wrong about the quality of your editing, but there's no bad faith involved in having this opinion. ] (]) (]) 09:17, 20 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
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| == Hugo Krabbe == | |||
| Dear Gitz, In addition to the GA Review for the article ] I also wanted to open another channel of communication with you where I can chat outside of the official review process. With regard to the infobox picture I had the impression that you wanted to remove the dark frame with its Latin inscription. This can be done with the template "CSS image crop" or you can also crop the image and save a cropped version in Wikimedia Commons for this purpose. In biographies I like to show a cropped passport-photo-like picture in the infobox and give in addition the original full portrait further down in the body. See e.g. ], or ], but of course you do not need to follow that style. I wonder what you think about it. Whenever I do this, I add "Detail from the portrait below" by way of a title. Otherwise, editors come along and delete the "CSS image crop", probably simply because it is such an easy way to increment their edit count. – I looked at Hugo Krabbe in other languages. In addition to English, Misplaced Pages has this article in Russian, Indonesian, German, Italian, and Dutch. I can read the last three and I guess so can you. I find it very strange that Krabbe is described as a "filosofo danese" (Danish philosopher) rather than "professore di diritto olandese" (or similar) in the lead of the Italian article. Quite a few of Krabbe's Dutch terminology is difficult to translate. I hope you do not mind my criticism. Don't we pull together on the same string to improve Misplaced Pages? I hope we can learn from each other to do this even better. With best regards, ] (]) 20:59, 12 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you, @], I appreciate having a more informal channel of communication. | |||
| :* template:CSS image crop. That's brilliant, thank you. I've already applied it to the infobox picture and now I'll add the second picture, as you suggest. | |||
| :* While "legal philosopher" would be acceptable, ''filosofo danase'' is simply an error, which I have just corrected. I'm quite active on it.wiki. | |||
| :* I don't mind criticism, I'm not touchy. With regard to legal terminology, if there's anything you don't understand let me know and I'll do my best to clarify. | |||
| :Thank you for your help in improving the article. | |||
| :Best wishes, ] (]) (]) 21:34, 12 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Dear Gitz, I appleciate your attitude. It is a pleasure to work with you. Please forgive me my obsession with some unimportant stylistic matters. I feel that many articles have horribly untidy code. Of course these cosmetics are not part of the GA criteria. Another one of these is that I feel that template names should all be written with a leading upper case: birth date -> Birth date; death date and age -> Death date and age; sfn -> Sfn; cite book -> Cite book etc. I think we are making good progress. I have looked a bit around, but I do not seem to find additional sources. You have done excellent work. Greetings, ] (]) 21:17, 14 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you, Johannes, I really appreciate your suggestions and I am impressed by your thorough review. This is one of the most enjoyable activities I have done on Misplaced Pages in recent times, I am also learning a lot from it and the article is undoubtedly improving. So please do not change your approach. ] (]) (]) 23:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hello, @], I've now implemented most of your suggestions. However, I've some doubts about how to proceed with the "Further reading section". If I'm not wrong, the only source in "Bibliography" not quoted in the text is the 2013 book by Stella - too little for a self-standing "Further reading" section. | |||
| ::::Allow me to explain the criterion I've followed with citation and bibliography. The bibliography now contains only sources that deal with Krabbe's work. Most of them (possibly with the sole exception of Stella 2013) are quoted in the article. Moreover, when in the footnotes I quote other works that don't deal with Krabbe but that occasionally mention Krabbe (e.g., Carl Schmitt, Political Theology; H. Kelsen, Des Problem; Canihac) or that support other contents covered in the article (e.g. Eyffinger, Congleton, Kossman, Stolleis, von Bernstorff, etc.), these sources are not included in the "Bibliography" and are included in the footnotes using <ref> and the template:Cite book - no template:Sfn. The rationale is to provide the reader with a "Bibliography" section that is entirely on Krabbe and on Krabbe only. | |||
| ::::Is this OK? ] (]) (]) 13:48, 18 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Dear Gitz666, I understand your idea of separating under "bibliography" the sources for the biographical subject from sources needed to support more peripheral matters such as historical context and comparisons with other people. I have found a similar need to make the core monographs that deal with the biographical subject stand out among the many other less central sources in ]. See the list of 5 links to "subject matter monographs" that precedes the list of sources. The reviewers have left this list untouched, while they have not hesitated to delete other "duplicative" material. I do not think this feature has been imitated by anyone. The normal approach followed in Misplaced Pages for the {{Tl|Sfn}}-style citation style is to include all the sources cited in one long list typically entitled Sources and not Biliography, often subdivided in Books, Websites, News, etc. See the FA ], promoted in 2021, which I like to cite as an example to follow. I feel that a list with only one item under Further reading is not a problem if this item is worthwhile. With thanks and best regards, ] (]) 21:00, 19 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == I’m impressed == | |||
| My impression about your ] edits to the '''challenging subject'''. Thanks @] 🙂. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 01:38, 19 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Your position in the Appeal to authority RfC == | |||
| If is an opposition to the last oppose, please say it explicitly and do not use bold face. Otherwise, please remove the indentation, i.e., the column. ] (]) 14:59, 23 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you for removing the indentation. Indeed my !vote was not meant to be "oppose to other users' opposition". ] (]) (]) 16:36, 23 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | ||
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| ==Concern regarding ]== | |||
| == Illustrative example == | |||
| ] Hello, Gitz6666. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that ], a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months ], so if you wish to retain the page, please ] again or ] that it be moved to your userspace. | |||
| If the page has already been deleted, you can ] so you can continue working on it. | |||
| In you incorrectly wrote that the ] were "Jewish collaborators". Of course, the Blue Police were ethnic Poles and I corrected the error . I'm guessing this was either bad wording on your part or you simply confused two things. Either way, unless somebody wishes to challenge the correction, which would be silly, that's all there is to this as far as we're concerned. | |||
| Thank you for your submission to Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| But. It occurred to me that this is a pretty good opportunity to illustrate how this topic area got so bad and vicious to began with, back in 2018 (and maybe again now), and also the way in which the G&K paper is written. | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 8 June 2024 == | |||
| Suppose that you were not Gitz666, suppose you were a "Polish editor" (I know you're not, this wouldn't have actually mattered). Well, Icewhiz would have already filed a WP:AE report on this before you even woke up. In it you'd be accused of "Holocaust distortion" and he'd claim that you were "perpetuating a hoax" that the Blue Police were Jewish. A few of his supporters would show up to that report. One would perhaps shake their head sadly and act really disappointed and ask, with tears in their Misplaced Pages eyes, how an editor who makes such edits is even allowed to edit Misplaced Pages. Another one, would jump in yelling about how this is a long standing pattern, that you have already been topic banned from other areas, that you made some edit 15 years ago that were also problematic, that unless administrators take extreme action against you immediately, all of Misplaced Pages will collapse within a fortnight. Maybe even some uninvolved person would take a look and say "yeah, this looks bad, the Blue Police weren't Jewish". Because out of context, it WOULD look bad. Your pleas that you had no problem with this being corrected would fall on deaf ears. If someone showed up to defend you and point out that it could've just been a simple error and that you seemed not to object to the correction, Icewhiz and others would accuse them of tag teaming and of being part of some big conspiracy and someone would state that it's very strange that an editor who edits in a topic area shows up to a WP:AE report on that topic and that the very fact they're defending you is suspicious in itself and insinuate you're somehow coordinating with them. | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-06-08}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 8--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 12:26, 8 June 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| Even if you quickly corrected your error, it wouldn't have mattered. This "diff" is just too good to pass up. | |||
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| == Feedback request: History and geography request for comment == | |||
| Now, WP:AE admins can actually be pretty good (at least these days) and they'd probably discern that this was a simple mistake and just warn you to be more careful in the future or some such. Or you'd get unlucky and some trigger happy admin would slap a topic ban on you. | |||
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| A few months later, a sock puppet or some such, would go and add this edit of yours to "List of Hoaxes" on Misplaced Pages or similar. Maybe you'd remove it because it was an error not a hoax but then Icewhiz or someone would jump in and restore it and go to ArbCom demanding a new case or something. Whenever you ran into Icewhiz, he'd bring up this very diff of your error and repeat the claim that you were spreading hoaxes on Misplaced Pages, despite the fact that this has been explained as a simple mistake repeatedly. Oh wait, in fact, if you claimed it was a "simple error" that would be used against you too - the response would be that there's nothing "simple" about it and that kind of comment illustrates that you are trivializing the Holocaust. | |||
| == Random Italy question == | |||
| Sooner or later Icewhiz would be banned though. Editors like him always are. It's more of a question of how much damage they do in the meantime and how many people they hurt before some admin finally figures out how bad news that kind of editor is. But that wouldn't end it. A twitter account would pop up and accuse you of blaming Jews for the Holocaust because you wrote that the Blue Police were Jewish. Icewhiz would make sock puppets and keep re-adding this diff to reports and discussions. Those Icewhiz supporters would show up to these discussions and fan the flames. Icewhiz would contact an outside person, maybe a journalist, maybe an academic and convince them that you are part of some grand conspiracy and use this diff as evidence. You. Wrote. That. Blue. Police. Were. Jewish. Accidentally and probably just with bad choice of wording and bad sentence structure, but you did. It would be trivial to write that up pretending that this was intentional and deliberate and that you are doing it because you are a Polish nationalist. And some people would eat that right up. | |||
| Hope you don't mind me asking you first (I could go to WT:ITALY but I prefer personal touch I guess :>). Does it wiki have an article about the following award: "Premio Europeo Città di Caorle"? Does that award have an English name? I am working with some Polish sources about a book which won it (]) and wonder how to describe it and whether it can be interwikilinked to it wiki? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 03:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| All this might sound hyperbolic. It's actually an understatement. I skipped all the parts about how this would be accompanied by being outed, threats, abuse, your family would get doxed, and all the other pleasantries that come along with editing in this topic area (unless you're anonymous). It's the story of Icewhiz in a nutshell. | |||
| :Hello @], I couldn't find anything about the price on it.wiki, but I did find this abstract in English from an academic essay on the subject . I am sorry I cannot be more helpful. ] (]) (]) 06:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| And this is how a topic area gets destroyed. Specifically how collegiality and capacity for cooperation gets completely destroyed. We're still dealing with this crap four years after Icewhiz got topic banned. This is why this topic area is so toxic. And here is the sad-funny thing. All those discretionary sanctions and extra special admin powers? They actually make things worse. Precisely because they encourage this type of behavior. Why bother working out a compromise with someone when it's so much easier to try to get them banned over an accidental mistake, like the one you made here? Why let it go, acknowledge that errors get made and what matters is if they are corrected, when the admins made seeking sanctions against others so cheap and easy to get? It almost seems like some admins actively encouraged - in the past, not now - exactly this kind of behavior (if you have a problem write a report! Stop bickering on the talk page, bring it to AE!) and then... turned around and complained about how battlground-ish the area had become. Sheesh. | |||
| == Yasuke Page Stuff == | |||
| I think most of your edits are fine. And I hope that collaboration and collegiality can be restored to this topic area.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 06:27, 5 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Since you're involved on the Yasuke talk discussion, I just thought someone should be aware of ]. I'm not really sure what Misplaced Pages's policy is on coordinating on a Wikitionary talk page to coordinate changing to an article... Anyways, I just thought someone in that debacle should know it's happening. Cheers. ] (]) 11:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, this edit was a "simple error" with reguard to the final bit concerning the Blue police (national police) qualfied as "Jewish collaborators". In the middle of the night, I read "Jewish" and understood "Polish". I know what the Blue Police was, I read (which I quoted and added to the bibliography) and also , and I made a few edits on the Blue Police as an egregious case of Polish (not Jewish) collaboration, e.g. this one and others. Thank you for fixing my mistake. Obviosuly I did not revert you. Note that I did not revert your two partial reverts of my edits () although I don't agree with them. I take the BRD cycle as the gospel and hope with all my heart that in the HiP area there will be no more of that edit war shit we've recently seen elsewhere. | |||
| :Regarding Icewhiz, I think you misunderstood him in a way that can only be explained by the very close and conflicting nature of your interactions: we often fail to understand the people who are closest to us and who, for better or worse, are most significant to us. I'm not talking about Icewhiz as a person - I don't know anything about him and I haven't even looked at his edit history; I am curious to read the second part of your text about him on your blog, though, the doxxing issue and all of that. Rather than the person, I'm talking about the dynamic between Icewhiz (and what you call his supporters or "meatpuppets") and you (and your supporters): I think you did not fully understand what was going on, though everything is relatively simple if not obvious and, so to speak, out in the open. Maybe later, if you are interested, I could try to clarify what I mean by this - it might also be useful in light of the upcoming ArbCom case - but I don't have time at the moment. | |||
| :Final note - please, don't get me wrong, I appreciated you taking contact here on my user page and expressing your views on the Icewhiz thing. I think this helps very much to "heal the wounds", so to speak. But at first the temptation to dismiss your TL;DR with this reply was irresistible. I'm happy I resisted. ] (]) (]) 11:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah, well, I never threated {{redacted}} so right there there's one small difference between me and Icewhiz. | |||
| ::That second part is hard to write because it's more personal - I can send you what I have so far if you'd like. | |||
| ::And yeah, ok, fair enough on that last diff.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 21:55, 5 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::No doubt there are differences between you and Icewhiz: your positions and behaviour are so different as to make any comparison impossible. I'd be happy to read what you have written so far, but if it's personal and you're not yet sure about it, I'm also fine with longingly waiting for it to be published and enduring the suspance further. ] (]) (]) 11:39, 6 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Holy shit, this conversation is fuckin' wild. The shocking imagery in VM's language describing disturbing threats of violence as well as Gitz' idiosyncratic, swaying obtuseness that seems to flow to and from that. What am I reading here? VM, I suppose you could ask ArbCom whether you're allowed to say that <redacted> in public (like at the arbitration case), but as it stands, stating it declaratively like that strikes me as a ] violation of the highest order. Redacting and ]'ing. Please do not repeat again without ArbCom unambiguously allowing for it. | |||
| ::::Having said and done that, I'd like not to be drawn further into this exchange. Any other admin may act as they see fit, or there can be no action — atm I've no comment, either way. I noticed this exchange in passing and felt compelled to act as I did. But I prefer that any non-urgent issues (including taking issue with anything I said or done here) be raised at the arbitration case only, though neither one of you are required to oblige me with that. To be clear: it would be appreciated, but you don't have to. Regardless, thank you both in advance for your patience. ] 02:22, 7 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@], do you mind elaborating a bit on "Gitz' idiosyncratic, swaying obtuseness"? Are we joking? I don't find it funny. ] (]) (]) 02:29, 7 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No, not a joke, I found it quite challenging to follow. The sentences seemed generally convoluted and lacking in directness. But that could just be my read. And English is my second language, so who knows. Maybe to others it reads poignant and pointed. Sorry if you've taken offense, I didn't actually mean it as a slight. ] 02:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Yes, English is also my second language and writing in English doesn't come natural to me, so I'm sorry you didn't like my prose and you thought it lacked in directness, but it was not directed at you and you could have spared the smug in commenting it. ] (]) (]) 02:43, 7 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Anyway, it's OK - apologies taken. No need to reply further, best wishes, ] (]) (]) 02:47, 7 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Again, no slight (smugness or otherwise) was intended. I hope you believe me, if not now, eventually. Anyway, sometimes I try reading stuff I've written from, say, a decade ago and it often reads a lot worse than your prose. FWIW. And I'm still not a great writer, though hopefully a bit more cogent. Thanks and I'll leave you b now. ] 02:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :thanks for letting me know. ] (]) (]) 22:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{anchor|Icewhiz symptom}}{{od|:::::::::}}OK, I've decided to accept ]’s invitation to be more straightforward and clearly state my point of view on Icewhiz. Note, however, that mine is a relatively uninformed point of view: I know little about their activities on and off Misplaced Pages and have not yet delved into talk page discussions. | |||
| == ANI: Talk Yasuke == | |||
| My starting point is that indeed there is a "distortion" in most of the articles on Holocaust in Poland and Jewish/Polish relations. I knew this for a fact even before the G&K article was published, although I did not suspect the extent of the distortion. I don't know whose fault it is, nor whether the distortion is malicious and deliberate, as G&K claim, or accidental and even physiological, given the peculiarities of the Polish war experience and Polish historiography and politics . However, I believe that G&K are right in their assessment of the content of our articles, which do often contain errors, lack balance and are influenced by a pro-Polish (nationalist) bias. If one doesn't agree with this, what follows makes no sense. | |||
| ] There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.<!--Template:Discussion notice--><!--Template:ANI-notice--> ] (]) 18:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| If one accepts my starting point and acknowledges that there is a systematic bias of this kind, which for one reason or another couldn't be addressed and corrected through the usual editing process (e.g., improvements got stonewalled, consensus couldn't be reached, etc.), then one consequence follows: it was inevitable that an Icewhiz of some kind would arise sooner or later, the arch-POV-pusher ready to do anything to publish their content, heedless of any WP policy and guideline and even common decency. They'd choose the username ] (Treblinka) or ] (Buchenwald) or ] (Auschwitz) or whatever, and devote their entire life to right this wrong, creating armies of sockpuppets, canvassing in and off-Wiki, doxing and threatening, bludgeoning the talk pages like mad until laptops start bleeding on their own. I myself am not Jewish, but both my father and wife are, my relatives and in-laws have been persecuted in no less than three different countries (no concentration camps, though), and I sense the power of trauma, the energy and concentration it gives you. | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 4 July 2024 == | |||
| From the point of view of WP policies and guidelines, the issue is quite simple: users of this type are egregious POV-pushers who must be topic banned and blocked as soon as they show up. Surely Icewhiz got what they deserved and nobody can complain about it. But if WP collaborative editing doesn't work and the articles on the Holocaust are unbalanced, the arrival of Icewhiz-like monsters is inevitable. It's like when a clogged pipe bursts from water pressure – you can't blame the water. That's the reason why the lamentations "Icewhiz is a catastrophe, a scourge, one of our worst harassers, etc.", while not wrong, don't cut to the chase, and the accusation "the G&K article is copied from Icewhiz's content" doesn't persuade either. Icewhiz is the symptom, not the cause. It's not Icewhiz who created Icewhiz's content, but Icewhiz's content (the need to rebalance the area) that created the arch-POV-pusher Icewhiz. ] (]) (]) 21:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-07-04}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 9--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 13:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 9 March 2023 == | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1232170247 --> | |||
| == July 2024 == | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-03-09}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 5--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 05:41, 9 March 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| ] Hello, I'm ]. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, ], but you didn't provide a ]. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to ] and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at ]. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on ]. ''No reliable sources are there to justify your edit, thanks!'' <!-- Template:uw-unsourced1 --> ] (]) 21:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:Bri@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1143646876 --> | |||
| :Hello ], yes, I think you made a mistake and I will nor reply on your talk page as you requested. ] (]) (]) 07:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ]: Arbitration case opened == | |||
| ::They told you to reply on their talk page. Why did you say they didn't? ] ] 16:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] That is a typo. I wrote {{tq|I will nor reply}} while I meant "I will now reply". In fact, I ]. ] (]) (]) 22:39, 16 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Wondering about DigitUniTO's copyright classification of Santi Romano's works == | |||
| Hello {{u|Gitz6666}}, | |||
| Hi, Gitz. | |||
| You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by April 04, 2023, which is when the first evidence phase closes.''' Submitted evidence will be summarized by Arbitrators and Clerks at ]. Owing to the summary style, editors are encouraged to submit evidence in small chunks sooner rather than more complete evidence later. | |||
| I was gearing up to perform a GA review on ] (your nomination is from 17 Apr 2024), so I had a look at the bibliography. There are many helpful links to his works in full, by the University of Turin (DigitUniTO, Collezioni e fondi digitali dell'Università di Torino). They seem to think that the copyright has elapsed on all of the books they scanned and uploaded (since 70 years had passed since his 1947 death), and classified them as 'pubblico dominio' (which I assume means public domain). I do not fault you for taking their word for it; given how utterly confusing (and different from country to country) copyright is, you would be hard-pressed to make your own assessment, and since they're a large academic organization, you would think they'd have checked these things thoroughly. | |||
| Details about the summary page, the two phases of evidence, a timeline and other answers to frequently asked questions can be found at ]. | |||
| My grasp on copyright law is tenuous at best. Still, I fear that the university may have mistakenly uploaded some works in contravention of copyright, and that by linking to the scans, ] might be exposed to liability under U.S. law (in the form of contributory infringement). In particular, I think that the German and French translations, published in the mid-1970's, are most likely still licensed exclusively to their respective publishers (Duncker & Humblot of Berlin, and Dalloz of Paris). Maybe Italy doesn't protect translations for as long as original works, I really have no idea; but I think Misplaced Pages is held to U.S. legal standards. My thinking is that the German and French translations each created a new work, which then seperately received a brand-new U.S. copyright (possibly retroactively, in 1996). Assuming the translators were hired to translate the works by the publishers, I think the copyright would expire 95 years from the date of publication (so, sometime around 2070), or if the translators licensed the right to create translations and then sold the resulting work to the publishers, I think it would expire 70 years after the translator's death (so, assuming the translator was alive when the works were published, definitely not before 2045). | |||
| For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. | |||
| Also, the original works by Santi Romano might be under copyright in the U.S. until 95 years after their date of publication. I have no idea whether linking to those works, which Turin University is hosting legally (I believe) in Italy, could be seen to contribute to infringement of the still-active U.S. copyright, though. | |||
| For the Arbitration Committee,<br>] (]) 00:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I've removed the links to the two translated works, but have left the original ones for you to decide how to handle. Maybe you could e-mail the university about this, requesting feedback? | |||
| == Your ] nomination of ] == | |||
| The article ] you nominated as a ] has passed ]; see ] for comments about the article, and ] for the nomination. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a '''bold link''' under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can ] within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility.<!-- Template:GANotice result=pass --> <!-- Template:GANotice --> <small>Message delivered by ], on behalf of ]</small> -- ] (]) 10:02, 18 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Best, §§ ] §§ ] §§ 16:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Hugo Krabbe is promoted to GA. == | |||
| Dear Gitz. Hugo Krabbe is promoted to GA. ''Was lange währt wird endlich gut!'' (German proverb). Surely the longest GA Review I ever conducted. The excellent quality of your collaborative participation in this effort made it worthwhile and enjoyable. Thank you so much! Hope to meet you soon again. Bye for now, ] (]) 10:15, 18 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you, @], for the message and your consideration. I'm inclined to trust the University of Turin when they say that the works they published online are in the public domain. Besides, I'm not sure I understand your concern about the German and French translations: Duncker & Humblot and Dalloz have copyright on their translations, not on the original Italian text. I'd be happy to drop an email to "DigitUniTO" (Collections and Digital Funds of the University of Turin) as you suggest, but I'd like to first have a better grasp on the issue. Given my limited knowledge of copyright, I'll notify this discussion to WP:CQ and ask form their help. Thanks, ] (]) (]) 20:10, 20 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you, @]. May I say that you've been an outstanding reviewer? Thanks to your thorough analysis of the article, careful and clear explanations, great care and attention to detail, the article improved enormously and I learnt a lot in the process - which was the main puropose of my GAN. I've been very lucky to have your cooperation. | |||
| ::Yes, I think asking at WP:CQ was the wise course of action; that option didn't really occur to me. I don't mean to make you feel obligated to write e-mails without having a full understanding of the situation and that might turn out to have been unnecessary.<br> | |||
| :Re DYK, while I'd like more people to know about Krabbe and our good work, I don't think the article presents "a surprising or intriguing fact" or is "written for a general audience"... The only "hook" I could come up with is "Did you know that according to Hugo Krabbe, law is the only sovereign in a modern state?", which is perhaps not intriguing enough. What do you think? ] (]) (]) 10:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::</br> | |||
| ::Dear Gitz, I think it is in fact very good and much better than many others I have see. Greetings, ] (]) 10:40, 18 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::About the translations; I did ramble a bit in my original message. I believe the files that the article linked to were in fact scans of the German and French translations (though I didn't actually check the contents of the latter, relying on what the metadata provided said about the language of the file contents) – most likely making them derived but creative works under American copyright law.<br> | |||
| ::The copyright term on the underlying work by Santi Romano wouldn't be extended, of course, but I think the term for the translation would be either 95 years after the date {{em|of the translation's}} publication (so, 2070), or 70 year's after the translator's death (a date very unlikely to be before 2045). | |||
| ::The latter is definitely how it works in Germany (§ 3 sentence 1 UrhG specifying that translations, in particular, are granted the same protections as entirely new works).<br> | |||
| ::</br> | |||
| ::That said, I still have no real clue whether merely keeping a hyperlink on Misplaced Pages that points to translations, possibly illegally distributed, somewhere on the internet could actually make Misplaced Pages liable in the U.S. But better safe than sorry, eh?<br> | |||
| ::</br> | |||
| ::Keep up all your good work! | |||
| ::—§§ ] §§ ] §§ 23:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::You are right. Both the German edition "Die Rechtsordnung" (Duncker & Humblot, 1975) and the French "L'ordre juridique" (Dalloz, 1975) are made available by DigitUniTO as "Public domain" ( ), but DigitUniTO states "''Attenzione: l'anteprima visualizza al massimo 20 pagine del documento''" ("Attention: the preview displays a maximum of 20 pages of the document"). ] (]) (]) 00:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And then, below the (malfunctioning) preview, there's a download link for the whole document, 124 MB (under the heading {{lang|it|Scarica il documento completo}}). I've checked now, it's all there. Also, no part of the document – even a 20-page preview – is likely to be in the public domain. | |||
| ::::—§§ ] §§ ] §§ 09:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are right again - I was able to download the German and French translations in their entirety. I can see that the German edition has "''Alle Rechte vorbehalten 1975 Duncker & Humblot''" (All rights reserved) on p. 4, and the French edition has a similar copyright notice from Jurisprudence génétale Dalloz on p. II. So they appear to be covered by copyright, and yet the digitised copies have been released with the explicit statement "public domain". Is that enough for us? Should we enquire? Let's hear from WP:CQ editors (]). ] (]) (]) 10:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == The awaited ''Shinchō Kōki'' quote == | |||
| ==DYK nomination of Hugo Krabbe== | |||
| ] Hello! Your submission of ] at the ] has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at ''']''' and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! <!--Template:DYKproblem--> <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 01:58, 19 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Just a quick note to apologize for disappearing and to let you know I'm not ignoring things — or rather, that I ''am'' ignoring things, but only because a member of my family was injured late last week, and I've been acting as caregiver. With any luck, I should be able to post the quote from the ''Sonkeikaku Bunko'' version of the ''Shinchō Kōki'' (and its translation) tomorrow afternoon. Cheers, ‑‑ ] │<sup>'']''</sup> 07:51, 22 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ==My involvement== | |||
| I see that you are about to submit a new evidence. I can not talk for other contributors, but can explain myself to avoid misunderstanding. | |||
| #I looked at this page because I discussed a related BLP issue with François Robere a day before. If you look at my edit summary, it was that "I do not see any BLP violations or other reasons to remove this sourced content", I continued thinking about BLP policy, i.e. what is permissible, and what is not. This had nothing to do with VM. | |||
| #Perhaps I misread it, but our ] policy says (1st phrase): ''An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions''. Key word: ''repeatedly''. That's why a single edit, even revert on the page is not an edit war. François Robere (with whom I had a disagreement) reverted my edit, but I did not revert it back. Instead, I just left this page because the dispute was too "hot" for me. I did not edit war on this page. | |||
| #I doubt that bringing very old stories where people reverted edits by currently banned users (such as I.) would be helpful. You might ask Arbs if they want such evidence prior to submitting it. ] (]) 02:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello, @], I'm so sorry to hear about your relative's injury. I hope they make a speedy recovery. As to the quote, there's no rush at all! I truly apologize if I made it seem urgent. Thanks for your message. ] (]) (]) 08:21, 22 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :yes, I asked the Arbs if that evidence is useful or not. It's not "very old", though (2019). If they allow me to submit it, I suggest you add this comment to the analysis page, possibly adding a link to that conversation with FR you've mentioned. I personally agree that your contribution was minimal. However I'd be interested to hear the ArbCom's view on the practice of "collaboratively following" VM. I don't know if there's policy on this. When the issue was raised at AE, they were very lenient. Since I think that practice is quite disruptive and seriously affects WP:CON and collaborative editing, I believe a warning would be useful and would set a clear precedent, if there are no precedents on this. But I might be wrong, the practice could be totally legit and my evidence would then provide the Arbs with an opportunity to dispel any doubt on the matter. That's why I raised the issue. ] (]) (]) 09:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well, not only you bring things from 2019 that have been addressed by previous arbitration, but you bring things from 2016 that have been addressed by WP:AE. You call AE "lenient". What? Well, it is anything but that. That "evidence" brought to AE by filer was a mountain of misinterpretations, but discussing and rebutting all of them would take a life and has nothing to do with Holocaust in Poland. Admins on AE did not buy it. But whatever. This is your evidence. ] (]) 02:02, 21 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::ah, OK, now I understand what you mean. It's a bit misleading on your part, though, because following VM around is an ongoing practice of yours, which maybe is entirely legit, I don't know... but now I undersrand the point about issues that have nothing to do with Poland. Fair enough ] (]) (]) 02:12, 21 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::<u>No, this is not "my ongoing practice"</u>, you are making things up. That's the problem. ] (]) 02:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::OK, if you say so . It was very tangential to the proceeding anyway. ] (]) (]) 15:29, 21 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::OK, thank you! Then, you should also notice that the story in your evidence had happen just before the previous arbitration, and it is between the parties of the previous arbitration. Hence, bringing it would be re-negotiating the results of previous arbitration, i.e. something along the lines of the ] (i.e. VM has been already sanctioned for the old behavior that appears in your evidence). It is also important that two other participants of this exchange (the behavior by ''everyone'' was subpar) were indefinitely blocked since then, which does prove they were "not here" or something like that. In my opinion, bringing such evidence would be very much unhelpful. But again, this is your evidence. ] (]) 17:25, 21 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::It's been accepted and published. On the Analysis page, I will explain why I believe it is relevant. ] (]) (]) 17:46, 21 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Your evidence has some obvious problems. Here is one of them. The indeffed user Tatzref made an edit that was indeed problematic, at least in one aspect. And you make it to appear as if others tried to restore ''his'' version. No, they did not. They restored other, rather different versions that incorporated only some parts of the text include by Tatzref. There are other problems with your evidence, but I would rather not say them now. ] (]) 18:28, 21 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Among other problems, in your evidence you essentially take the side of banned user I., trust him and justify his reverts/edits, such as . Well, I did not check their discussions (tl/dr, sorry), but even I can see'' in this diff'' that the banned user removes multiple references to a book by Cambridge University Press , to Harvard University Press, to Financial Times, etc., while claiming in his edit summary "Remove self-published source". And any other sources do not look SPS to me. Maybe they are not great sources (I have no idea), but not SPS. And this is not all. You name someone (no, this is not me) as a participant in this edit war, while she did not; some of your diffs do not support at all your statements, etc. ] (]) 02:14, 22 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::This is obviously up to arbitrators. Do they want to use the incident that has led to the previous arbitration (as I think you correctly noted), has been considered during the previous arbitration, had happen 4 years ago, and has been started by 3 contributors who are currently indeffed? In any previous arbitration that would be very much "no-no". Depending on how it will be taken, I may comment (or not) in Analysis section. ] (]) 01:45, 22 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::As I said, when the evidence will be summarized I'll explain why I believe it's relevant to the case. But the diff you just shared (} doesn't show Icewhiz removing {{tq|multiple references to a book by Cambridge University Press , to Harvard University Press, to Financial Times, etc.}} In fact: | |||
| ::::::::::* the reference to Harvard University Press (, Harvard University Press, page 52) was not removed. | |||
| ::::::::::* Financial Times ({{Cite web|url=https://www.ft.com/content/3f1f6972-430c-11e8-93cf-67ac3a6482fd|title=Poland’s reclaimed properties create scars across Warsaw|last=|first=|date=24 April 2018|website=Financial Times|language=en-GB|access-date=2019-05-10}}) is not a high quality source in this topic area (per ArbCom Sept 2019 decision) and here it was supporting the trivial and non-contentious text {{tq|Decades later, reclaiming pre-war property would lead to a number of controversies, and the matter is still debated by media and scholars as of late 2010s}}. | |||
| ::::::::::* the reference to Cambridge University Press ({{cite book|author=Anna Cichopek-Gajraj|title=Beyond Violence: Jewish Survivors in Poland and Slovakia, 1944–48|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=dDezAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA82|date=19 June 2014|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-107-03666-6|pages=82}}) was not removed, but the source was misrepresented: | |||
| ::::::::::# TEXT 1 (by Tatzref and others): {{tq|Impoverished claimants could however obtain exemptions from court for legal fees; financial and legal assistance was provided by various Jewish organizations}}. | |||
| ::::::::::# TEXT 2 (by Icewhiz and others): {{tq|The majority of Jewish claimants could not afford the restitution process without financial help due to the filing costs, legal fees, and inheritance tax}}. | |||
| ::::::::::# TEXT OF THE SOURCE: {{tq|Fees were also problematic and for many people became a major obstacle to property restitution. The cost of inserting the notices alone was 800 zloty (…) Hereditary taxes and lawyers’ fees had to be paid as well. (…) All together the expenses usually amounted to about 20,000 zloty (200 dollars). The majority of Jewish claimants residing in Poland could not afford to pay the fees without the help of the CKZP (which also offered free legal aid) or without obtaining an exemption form court and lawyer fees called “poor man’s benefit”}} | |||
| ::::::::::Note that I'm not claiming that editors supporting TEXT 1 were in bad faith or lacking WP:COMPETENCE and should be banned. That would be absurd. What I'm claiming - and I think this shouldn't be controversial - is that TEXT 2 was far better, both in terms of NPOV and V, and that that difference in quality between TEXT 1 and TEXT 2 was both relevant and obvious. If you doubt this, please have a look to this ]. So the real question is: why was it so difficult to get TEXT 2 published? And was that difficulty in selecting the best text specific to the article ] and limited to the issue of Jewish property restitution, or was it widespread and present on other articles as well? ] (]) (]) 14:58, 22 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Well, I have no doubt that the text was ultimately improved. Why it took so long and was so painful? Here is my guess: this is mostly because of three participants who were indefinitely banned later (including one who initiated this whole thing). It does not mean that all their ''content'' suggestions were bad (some were good), but the issue here is behavior. I do agree that everyone should be doing less reverts. Making only ''one'' revert to show your preferred version, as I did, would be better. But please check all my other arguments above in this thread about your evidence. ] (]) 20:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Let's call this the "three bad apples theory". Can we really believe it? First, one bad apple is entirely irrelevant here: ] made just one revert, just like you; "antisemitic vandalism" is bad manners, let's say is a serious PA, but it doesn't explain the shambles that followed. ] is defintely much more relevant, but note that they were indeff'd because of WP:OUTING, not because of tendentious or disruptive editing. And the final apple is the Big Apple, who according to VM is the Big and Sole Responsible of the Disruption of the topic area; but Icewhiz is the one who drafted the best version, the one who spotted the misrepresentation of sources, the one who filed the AE requests denouncing the disruption - so how can he be the Big Bad Apple? My theory: a group of editors were POV-pushing very badly on those pages, and "Jewish property" is paradigmatic and not exceptional. ] (]) (]) 00:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Yes, I understand that you want VM banned. But you are dedicating too much effort to pick up old diffs that have been already acted upon in the previous arbitration. Wait for three other parties to submit their evidence. They will probably do this just before the closing of the evidence phase to minimize chances by VM to reply with his evidence. ] (]) 02:08, 25 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::That would be silly of them. Either they have decided not to participate in the case or they are working strenuously to gather evidence. If so, I hope they don't overdo it. It would be better if they feed the Arbs with evidence in small doses rather than choke them with a bunch of stuff! ] (]) (]) 02:18, 25 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': |
== ''The Signpost'': 22 July 2024 == | ||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/ |
<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-07-22}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 10--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 09:30, 22 July 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | ||
| <!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid= |
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| == Sayamaki on Talk: Yasuke == | |||
| == Analysis == | |||
| Hi, IP Addresses are rightly blocked from participating on ], but there is more to Sayamaki than is being presently discussed on the page and since I shared this information with Erikr, I also wanted to share it with someone else. There is translation from 1913 of ]'s Sword Book in ''Honchō Gunkikō'', and the ''Book of Samé Ko Hi Sei Gi'' of Inaba Tsūriō. In this book, it is written {{tq | The word Sayamaki was originally used to describe a regular sword, but at present only the Makitachi is ever called Sayamaki, so that name is the same as in ancient days, although its meaning has become so limited. In a book (title and author not stated) quoted in the Sokutai Shikimoku, a statement is made that "the Sayamaki is so called because it is the Amezayamaki; the style is that of the ordinmary tachi. If the scabbard is wound round with string we say Sayamaki, as when the handle is bound with string we call the weapon Itomaki no tachi. It is a common weapon of modern and ancient days." Hakuseki then expresses his doubt about that opinion being a definite one"}} and also {{tq | It is also mentioned in Azuma Kagami that 'On Katana and Sayamaki, both have Sageo, so that the sword called Sayamaki is undoubtedly a Katana'}} on page 36 and on Page 40 it also says {{tq | "There are now two kinds of swords termed Katana, namely Chiisakatana, which is the same as the old Sayamaki, and those swords now ordinarily worn with Koshikatana, decorated as Sayamaki, but containing old Tachi blades"}}. | |||
| Because we have worked ot make the evidence summary as neutral as possible, many editors have wanted the interoperation they did fully considered and so we've bee doing that by copying over to analysis. If you're not concerned about that, no need to revert. ] (]) 22:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| The reading and research that a Sayamaki is just a fancy tanto is rather incomplete and based on the assumption of the one who did the research. Makitachi, or Itomaki no Tachi, can be read more about , seen . The book also describes {{tq | the Sangi-itto says, in describing the costumes of the mounted attendants of the Emperor: "Oguchi, Shitatare, and Sayamaki no to shall be worn." This is evidently the sword which we call now Chiisa Katana}} and {{tq| Since Katana were made, the Sayamaki no Katana has become known as Chiisakatana just in the same way as when the long tachi was called O-Dachi to distinguish it from the ancient Tachi, this later became known as the Ko-dachi. So that it is clear that in olden times the characters 小刀 were read Kogatana, and in middle-ages a sword was called Sayamaki which we now call Chiisakatana. The characters are the same as in the old days but the pronunciation has change}}. | |||
| :Ah OK, I thought I had made a mistake by posting it twice on two different pages - Evidence and Analysis. It's OK to have it as Analysis, I guess, so I'll self-revert. Thanks ] (]) (]) 22:23, 22 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Ah, I hadn't seen this message yet. Thanks to you both. :) ] (]) 22:48, 22 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| In short, according to this translation, the primary sources use of "Sayamaki" could have simply referred to a Makitachi or to a Chiisakatana. ] (]) 03:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ]: You have been added as a party == | |||
| :Thank you for your message. Per ], we cannot combine Inaba Tsūriō's ''Book of Samé Ko Hi Sei Gi'' with the quote from the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the ''Shinchō Kōki'', and say that Yasuke was given a "Makitachi" or a "Chiisakatana". However, the source you shared suggests that it would be wrong to translate ''sayamaki'' with "short sword"; we'd better just translate it as "sword", and leave the potentially hard question of "what kind of sword?" unaddressed by our translation. I will notify this exchange on the Yasuke talk page. Thanks, ] (]) (]) 09:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| You have been added as a party to the Arbitration case about ]. | |||
| ::Understandable! If you all want to peruse the soruce yourself, it is available . I think some of the confusion that is present on the talkpage regarding the quotes that I provided is that I am not suggesting there is one definitive translation for Sayamaki. Rather, I am saying that according to this book a Makitachi was also called a Sayamaki, and a Chiisagatana was called a Sayamaki, as well as what Erikr found was also something called a Sayamaki. My point mainly is that according to this translation of a near-contemporary primary source (not specific to Yasuke, but rather to the definition of the word Sayamaki itself) Sayamaki had a multitude of possible meanings. For instance, Page 37 reads {{tq | The word Sayamaki is not used only for the kind of sword with string-bound scabbard, but sometimes it is adapted to swords which have strings to fasten the scabbard through the belt so as to prevent it from slipping out (see above the reference to Sanada Yoichi).}} | |||
| ::The above reference to Sanada Yoichi is on Page 36 and reads {{tq | Moreover, we find in Gempei Seisuiki that during the war of Ishibashiyama, Sanada no Yoichi Yoshitada, while wrestling with his enemy Matano , wished to cut the latter's head off, but he could not stab him, and feeling astonished, he lifted his sword and looked at it above the (clouds) sky, when he found that the Kurikata of his Sayamaki was broken, so that the sword came out of his belt with its scabbard. It is also mentioned in Azuma Kagami that "On Katana and Sayamaki, both have Sageo, so that the sword called Sayamaki is undoubtedly a Katana.}} | |||
| ::Since Sayamaki seems to have multiple possible meanings, we cannot know for certain what meaning of Sayamaki the document is using since it isn't specified. While we cannot say the Sayamaki mention in the source is a Makitachi, we also can't say it wasn't one, which is also why the historian in question said that Sayamaki could have also referred to a tachi. We have a subject matter expert who on Twitter has said that Sayamaki could mean a great sword, Per ], {{tq | The author is an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications, except for exceptional claims. Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so}}, and I have no presented a source, translated in 1913, which supports the statement of the expert that a Sayamaki could be a tachi. Per the post on the talk page, {{tq | The K. Hirayama poster on Twitter maintains here on July 19 that there were tachi greatswords with a sayamaki mounting. While I have found pictures online that appear to be this kind of setup (such as the fourth from the top in this image at Wikimedia Commons), these are often described as "ceremonial", and the use of a sayamaki mounting on a longer sword does not seem common; in almost all cases I've seen or read about so far, the sayamaki mounting is reserved for tantō.}}. | |||
| ::The twitter in question is . Specifically, this section {{tq | でも、「鞘巻」は「鞘巻之太刀」を示す場合が多いのはご存じでしょうか。}} Which reads, in essence, "However, did you know that often refers to ". Per WP: Guidelines, the translations of sources is to be trusted over the translations of Wikipedians Per ], which means the translation of Sayamaki from the book is preferable to the translation of any Wikipedian. So we have a historian who is a subject matter expert that says Sayamaki often referred to Sayamaki Tachi, and a book translation from 1913 that also says Sayamaki once referred to Makitachi. The article should not definitively represent the Sayamaki as just a shortsword. Even to that end, depicting it as a tantō is possibly incorrect. | |||
| ::Arai Hakuseki in "My Father", translated by ] in ''Legends of the Samurai'' describes of his father {{tq | After he passed seventy, my father developed pain in his left elbow. On account of this he offered to resign from his post, but the Kohō would have none of it. From then on he went to work '''wearing only a sayamaki sword14 that was two inches wide and about a foot long''', making a servant carry his long sword until he reached his office. When I think of it now, it must have presented a strange spectacle, but people didn’t object to it, and of course the Kohō didn’t seem to want to say anything. Come to think of it, my father must have thought, If something happens, it won’t do if you carry a sword but can’t use it. On the other hand, I have pain and can’t possibly use a sword. Well then, if it’s something useless, I might as well not carry it myself. Until his death my father always kept this sayamaki close at hand and, following the word he left when he died, I sent it to the person he adopted as a child and brought up, who now lives in Michinoku. As for its decorations, the iron part had waves carved on it; the sheath was lacquered black except for the part called “thousand coils,” which had gold foil underneath. After taking the tonsure, he kept it in a bag made of “toad-skin” leather}} | |||
| ::A foot long would place the sword more in-line with a wakizashi than the proposed tantō. Per circa 1875, {{tq | "Chisakatana is about two feet long to two and a-half feet, and lighter than the ordinary blade, and is worn with the naga hakama and the court dress called daimon"}} and {{tq | "Sayamaki has a portion of the scabbard bound with silk. The mountings are numerous and the making of them is a special and honourable trade. Goto Yujo was a celebrated maker of the 15th century, whose descendants still exist"}} | |||
| ::Per the , {{tq | "The ordinary war tachi had frequently a scabbard of plain wood, or of plain or decorated lacquer, and the upper part was often wound round with braid or leather, like the hilt, and was then called "ito maki" tachi. When this braid covered the entire scabbard it was a "sayamaki" tachi. Some were wound with rattan or covered with brocade, and there were at least eleven varieties of tachi worn at court on different occasions"}} and {{tq | The scabbard of the "chisa-katana," a sword intermediate between the katana and the wakizashi, and worn by itself, was more highly ornamented, having frequently not only a kozuka, but large menuki and an elaborate "kojiri."}} | |||
| ::Likewise, {{tq | Here the term dai does not refer to the katana long sword but actually refers to the tachi great sword. There is a type of tachi great sword that is worn with a katana-obi (刀帯) and this is called the efu no tachi (衛府太刀). The efu no tachi was so named because it was worn by those within the six sections of e (衛) and the six sections of fu (府) – these were military officials in the imperial court.323 You should know that there are a variety of styles of tachi great sword. Furthermore, understand that the word sayamaki (鞘巻) is a subtle way to refer to a tachi great sword}} from Samurai Arms, Armour & the Tactics of Warfare: The Collected Scrolls of Natori-Ryu (Book of Samurai), Page 264. | |||
| ::{{tq | Antony Cummins has a degree in Ancient History and Archaeology and a masters in Archaeology. He is the founder of the Historical Ninjutsu Research Team, who examine and translate ancient documents to reveal the truth about the Ninja. He has appeared in the documentaries Ninja Shadow Warriors, Samurai Head Hunters, Samurai Warrior Queens and Ancient Black Ops. He is the author of ten books including the best-selling Book of Ninja, Samurai War Stories, and The Illustrated Guide to Viking Martial Arts.}} | |||
| ::Further, we see {{tq| Nodachi when they wear underdress ready for armors, and Sayamaki when they are on battlefield}} in 馬埸辰猪全集 by Baba Tatsui. | |||
| ::Overall, it's safer to translate it as "sword", because while Erikr might state {{tq | in almost all cases I've seen or read about so far, the sayamaki mounting is reserved for tantō}}, I've just found a bunch of sources that disagree with the notion that it can be definitvely declared a tantō, a tachi, or a shortsword since it has, historically, been used to describe all three of those things. ] (]) 21:45, 24 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, but yesterday I changed the translation to "sword" and I was not reverted, so now there is nothing to correct. I have no idea who is right and who is wrong, but "sword" cannot be wrong. ] (]) (]) 06:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Sword is the best possible solution, yeah. I mostly wanted to provide additional sources to demonstrate that we cannot definitively say what the "sayamaki" used in the source was since there are a number of possible items which could have been described as a sayamaki. ] (]) 07:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Yasuke stuff == | |||
| Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by April 04, 2023, which is when the first evidence phase closes.''' Submitted evidence will be summarized by Arbitrators and Clerks at ], and can be analyzed at ]. | |||
| I dont necessarily want to start any drama or anything explosive so i hope you dont think thats my intent. | |||
| Owing to the summary style, editors are encouraged to submit evidence in small chunks sooner rather than more complete evidence later. | |||
| However the past couple days/week I've begun to feel that Eirikr, has begun to display behavior that's sort of sliding in between stonewalling or bludgeoning or if there's a policy specifically about attempting to force ones POV as the objective truth as opposed to what I think[REDACTED] is meant for. | |||
| Details about the summary page, the two phases of evidence, a timeline and other answers to frequently asked questions can be found at ]. | |||
| That and the influx of people who have suddenly appeared from seemingly unrelated works and whose post all seem to align specifically with him makes me hesitant about the intentions due to the wikitionary event. | |||
| For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. | |||
| Im by no means trying to say that its something hes doing purposefully or is doing bad faith but his recent comments seem contradictory to his supposed stance and his statements seem more inclined to mislead or direct people in a way that they arent getting the actual truth or information on the subject that and the other accounts just make me wonder if maybe theres a need to look into his behaviour on the page? I am attempting to talk with him first about this cause i dont want to cause some sort of drama unnecessarily or anything but I just aort of just have this bad feeling and felt i needed to say something. ] (]) 06:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| For the Arbitration Committee, ] (]) 03:17, 24 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| Gitz, can you please explain how you decided to leave these ] ] , and only these, notifications? ] (]) 23:57, 26 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :May I suggest that you write to Eirikr directly? I don't understand why you are complaining about someone else's behaviour on my talk page. I'm neither their tutor nor an admin. ] (]) (]) 15:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :@], I chose Levivich and F. Robere because they were active participants in many discussions leading up to the case, I knew (or thought I knew) that they largely agreed with the reading provided by G&K in their paper, and might be interested in presenting the paper, or parts of it, as evidence. Therefore I thought they might be particularly interested in knowing that ArbCom will not consider claims that were not submitted as evidence. | |||
| :Was that improper? I thought not because "Evidence phase 1" at ArbCom is not a consensus-making process: the final decision will be taken by Arbs, and while they are gathering evidence, the more they get, the better. This was my reasoning because in the only case filed at AE against me, ], Volunteer Marek made a statement (]) in which he pinged six editors who had recently expressed negative views on my editing during an ANI discussion (]). Those editors were selected precisely on that basis - those who expressed a positive opinion were not pinged. The ping was probably effective, since one of the six pinged editors (Elinruby) apparently responded by posting a statement about the case, which was very negative toward me. I reacted to VM's statement by invoking WP:CANVASS multiple times (e.g. , , , and final statement {{tq|VM has been unashamedly WP:CANVASSing here below}}) but no admin at AE made any comment on this. Therefore I thought I was wrong and VM was right: AE requests are not community discussions where WP:CANVASS applies because the final decision is not based on community consensus but is made by admins alone. This is the reason I gave myself to explain why AE admins did not react to that apparent, highly visible canvass and to my repeated protests. | |||
| :In fact, very recently I made the same point at AE (]): GizzyCatBella was invoking WP:CANVASS, and I told her in my statement: {{tq|I think you're wrong because this is not a community discussion and the final decision will be taken by admins. If you're right, however, then VM would have made the most blatant canvass in his statement at AE when he selectively pinged six editors who had criticised me during a previous discussion at AN/I}} (]). | |||
| :If I was wrong in believing that WP:CANVASS does not apply to the collection of evidence in AE/ArbCom cases, since they are not {{tq| consensus decision-making process}} per ], please AGF and consider that I have been actively editing in this project for a little over a year (January 2022) and was misled by the inexplicable lack of reaction from admins when Volunteer Marek behaved as he did at AE. ] (]) (]) 00:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::In the AE you mention I did not “ping” editors. I quoted six editors and linked their usernames, which is normal procedure. <u>IF</u> I had gone to their individual talk pages, as you did here, and informed them of the AE then you’d have a point. But I didn’t. So your claims about “VM made the most blatant canvass” are absurd and really look like some deflection and whataboutism from your own problematic actions.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 04:34, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't see any relevant difference. In both cases, editors get a notification. ] (]) (]) 06:31, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If you had mentioned FR in your comment or evidence and linked their username, nobody would care, I don’t think. But that’s not what you did.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 07:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::* So had I replied "Wow, Wugapodes, that's interesting, I wonder whether User:X, Y, Z know that", and had selected X, Y, Z on the basis of their views on the paper, that would have been OK, while posting on XYZ's talk pages is not OK. Well, if you are right, I don't really understand the rationale of it. Do you? | |||
| :::::* Besides, the text of the policy doesn't support this distinction: it speaks comprehensively of "notifications", and mentioning someone is a kind of notification according to ] and to common sense. The relevant section in this case seems to be ], which mentions {{tq|RFC, AFD or CFD}}; I doubt AE and ArbCom cases are {{tq|consensus decision-making process}} of the same kind as RFC, AFD and CFD. | |||
| :::::* Finally, ] explicitly qualifies decisions made by the Arbitration Committee as "Decisions not subject to consensus of editors", which arguably implies that WP:CANVASS does not apply to them. I imagine that also AE decisions are decisions not subject to consensus of editors, to which WP:CANVASS doesn't apply. | |||
| ::::: That's probably the reason why you could select and ping six editors at AE scot-free, @]. Anyway, I imagine this is not an unprecedented issue and Barkeep49 will let us know. ] (]) (]) 08:39, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Here's what I think. "I didn't like it when Editor Foo did it but since they were allowed to do it, I'm going to do it also" is not a very convincing argument for me. As for the other rationales, it is true that "ArbCom is not a consensus-making process" but it's also true that ArbCom's process depends on community participation and so this does, in my individual opinion, fail the ] standard of {{tqq|don't preselect recipients according to their established opinions}}. I also was surprised to see Volunteer Marek so eager to re-litigate whether or not what he did at AE was appropriate here. ] (]) 16:23, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm going to butt in here just to say this: if other parties can work together on preparing evidence (which has been happening and is not unusual), why can't Gitz and I work together on preparing evidence? To be clear, I am not preparing any evidence, so this is purely academic, but I don't see how one party can canvass another party to the case they're both parties in. ] (]) 16:25, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::And just to add, "I thought it was allowed because someone else was allowed to do it over my objection" is convincing for me. ] (]) 16:26, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, @], but my point is not normative, "since Editor Foo was allowed to do it, then I should also be allowed to do it". My point is cognitive, "since Editor Foo was allowed to do it, I honestly believed that that was permissible". ] (]) (]) 16:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Sayamaki Note == | ||
| {{ivmbox | |||
| |image = Updated DYK query.svg | |||
| |imagesize=40px | |||
| |text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ''... that ''']''' stirred up much controversy in the ] by arguing that the law, not the state, is the true sovereign?'' The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ]. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page <small>(], )</small>, and the hook may be added to ] after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }}<!-- Template:UpdatedDYK --> ] (]) 00:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I included "usage of the word is unclear" because the translation is being furnished entirely by Misplaced Pages editors with no input from professional historians. While it might be crystal clear to historians, I did not think it would be ] to contextualize the translation being provided by stating that it is unclear what the intended meaning is per ] which stated {{tq|Any original translations should be faithful, to the point of literalness; if interpretation is called for, it should be explicitly in parenthetical notes}}. My apologies. <b>]</b> 08:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Typo == | |||
| :There is nothing to apologise for, there's room for disagreement on this kind of things related to article content and in that case the talk page is the right place to adddress it. Thanks for your message, ] (]) (]) 08:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| In your recent submission ("involves Piotus"). Thank you. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 02:59, 28 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == You reverted my comment toward Symphonic Regalia. == | |||
| :Sorry. Fixed ] (]) (]) 07:16, 28 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| I don't mind if you want to abuse Misplaced Pages rules to revert my notifications to other users about ideological trolling on talk pages. Please explain to me, however, how I can follow the rules while still notifying users of the above? Symphonic Regalia used Thomas Lockley as factual evidence to belittle and troll others into his worldview and opinion which has now been discredited. He continues to do this behavior. I understand you are not him, but you clearly sympathize with his opinions and feel the need to defend him since he agrees with you, so I'd like to understand the best way for me to indicate to people on the talk page of his agenda and history of incorrect claims without getting it reverted. Thanks. ] (]) 08:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 03 April 2023 == | |||
| :Please, see ]. On article talk pages, WP users are expected to discuss only article content (and strictly related topics, such as article sources). We should not discuss user behaviour there, as it is off-topic and can easily become inflammatory (the article talk page quickly becomes an unreadable mess of off-topic back and forth). If you want to discuss user behaviour, you can do so on their user talk page (in this case, ]), or on the appropriate ], such as ]. ] (]) (]) 08:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="-moz-column-count:2; -webkit-column-count:2; column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-04-03}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 7--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 16:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC) </div></div> | |||
| ::I've redirected my inquiry of your "behavior" to the admin on my talk page, I look forward to his response either way as I am starting to think something suspicious is going on with your conduct. ] (]) 09:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:Bri@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1147436351 --> | |||
| == User:Nocomputersintexas == | |||
| == Sidenote on ] == | |||
| ] There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.<!--Template:Discussion notice--><!--Template:ANI-notice--> <b>]</b> 19:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Some are actually pro-Russia, possibly because of ] and anti-EU/anti-liberal sentiments. See ex. , or . <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 12:00, 4 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == August 2024 == | |||
| :Yes, I know, but not the mainstream, so to say, not ]. ] (]) (]) 12:04, 4 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Besides, I don't even know if one could call them "Polish nationalists". They are rather pan-Slavic nationalists or pro-Russia supporters with Polish nationality. ] (]) (]) 12:11, 4 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Agreed re first point, I'd need to read more regarding the second. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 12:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Was ] accidental? ] (]) 14:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Cause or consequence? == | |||
| :Yes, it was accidental. Sorry about that. I'm going to revert. ] (]) (]) 16:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Re: . The thing is, was Icewhiz's radicalization the cause or the consequence? I think was his first comment in this topic area, and I think it shows very strong bias/attitude that he never climbed down from, but just kept embracing more and more. IMHO it was his very strong bias that he refused to moderate and that impacted his ] that led to the deterioration of this topic area, not anything he encountered there. That area was relatively stable and friendly (collaborative) before, but he polarized it into two sides. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 04:07, 5 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::I see you've already remedied my clumsy edit abd restored your comment. ] (]) (]) 16:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 14 August 2024 == | |||
| :Dear ], you are probably right when you say that Icewhiz has been divisive and polarising in the topic area. I cannot comment on his attitudes and behaviour (and perhaps I shouldn’t, since he cannot be part of this conversation), but I too am of the opinion that he had an agenda. Given that his psychology is inscrutable and probably irrelevant, the question for me is: was his agenda mainstream or fringe? Let's assume the diff you shared is Icewhiz's "first comment in this topic area" and let's take a look at ]. | |||
| :You had nominated ] for deletion and were arguing that there had been some non-notable killings of Jews in Szczuczyn but that the "claims about a wider pogrom (100 deaths)" were not supported by RSs. You had pinged Poeticbent, who also !voted "delete". Icewhiz !voted "Strong keep". What do the sources say? | |||
| {{cot|title=The sources}} | |||
| * According to ] , in Szczuczyn, {{tqb|The Soviets withdrew, and for about two weeks, there was no real government in the town. On June 28, 1941, Poles murdered with cold weapons about 300 Jews in the town, members of entire families, mostly wealthy and educated Jews, and threw the dead into anti-tank ditches near the town. Following the arrival of German soldiers in the town, the murder was stopped}} | |||
| * According to Yad Vashem's ''Encyclopedia of Jewish Life Before and During the Holocaust'' says: {{tqb|After two years of Soviet rule, the Germans bypassed the town in June 1941, leaving the Jews in Polish hands. Three hundreds were murdered in a brutal massacre by axe-wielding mobs on 28 June. Another 100 were executed on 24 July}} | |||
| * According to the '']'', vol. II, A, p. 968: {{tqb|On June 27– 28, 1941, Kosmowski, his two brothers, and Peniuk organized a pogrom in which about 200 Poles plundered the houses of the richest Jewish families and brutally murdered 300 to 400 Jews.4 The local priest and Polish intellectuals refused to intervene in the violence. The arrival the next evening of 30 Wehrmacht soldiers enabled Jewish women to pay the unit commander soap and coffee to patrol Szczuczyn to end the collaborators’ attacks}} | |||
| {{cob}} | |||
| :My point is not "Icewhiz was right, you were wrong, ah ah", which would be simply silly: we have community discussions precisely for raising doubts like yours and and find the best solution by exchanging arguments and sources. My point is twofold: | |||
| :# Given the topic of AfD, we can sympathise with Icewhiz and try to understand how stressful it must have been to participate in that discussion. For Icewhiz and anyone who knew that that information about the pogrom was verifiable and accurate, it must have been difficult to participate in that discussion without starting to harbour some animosity towards you and Poeticbent. Besides, unless Icewhiz was relying on a very specialised and comprehensive archive, he must have spent hours searching for sources (from 09:31 to 13:35?). | |||
| :# Icewhiz's agenda was "mainstream", not "fringe". This implies that the ''argumentum ad Icewhiz'' ("if Icewhiz said this, it must be wrong", "this is what Icewhiz would want us to do", etc.) is widespread but fallacious. It is possible that knowing the truth and not being able to make it prevail without interminable and painful discussions, in two years has burnt him out, making him a kind of ] turned to the past. Which means: it's not Icewhiz who created Icewhiz's content, but Icewhiz's content (the need to rebalance/correct the topic area) that created the arch-POV-pusher Icewhiz. Which means: Icewhiz's radicalization was the consequence and not the cause. | |||
| :] (]) (]) 10:31, 6 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Few comments to this. First, I never said that all Icewhiz done was wrong. He made some constructive edits, and that includes rescuing the Szczuczyn pogrom article, for which my ] was not good enough. Second, are you implying that some individuals are not mentally strong enough to edit a particular topic arena? Which, actually, makes a lot of sense - editing about tragedies and likewise depressing topics takes a mental toll. That's obvious even in my case - spending few years in related topics was hard on me, and I am very much enjoying not editing much in this topic area these days. The problem is how one deals with such feelings or attitudes. Most other editors, including myself, leave the topic area or limit their activity in it, but don't degenerate into harassment and a crusade to destroy those they have some grieviances against. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 11:20, 6 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{TQ|are you implying that some individuals are not mentally strong enough to edit a particular topic arena?}} Yes, but it shouldn't be like that. Actually if everybody respected WP:CIV and EW no topic area would be too tough. But that's why editors like you shouldn't leave the topic area. Especially when the topic is contentious, it is vital that editors are polite, ready to work toward consensus and change their views when they are proven wrong; editors should at least strive to be neutral and to look for the best available sources; tendentious and nationalist editing should not be tolerated. AFIK you are a good editor and the topic area would be worse without you. ] (]) (]) 12:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you for the kind words. Not sure to what degree you can make them at ArbCom, but please note I just submitted something about you (positive). Whether the arbitrators accept it or not, I don't know. Btw, nitpicking: your section "Glaukopis (2022 and 2023)" - shouldn't it be 2021, not 2022? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 08:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thank you, Piotrus, you are right. I'll correct the error immediately. ] (]) (]) 08:40, 9 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-08-14}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 11--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 22:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| == Quote source? == | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1240033127 --> | |||
| == Utterly, uttlerly horrid == | |||
| Hello {{u|Gitz6666}}, | |||
| Gitz, do you know who this jackass is? ] (]) 16:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| in ] (still present unmodifiedly as far as I can see), you quoted {{u|My very best wishes}} as {{tq|"describ the Russian world as a 'shithole full of zombies'"}}. | |||
| :Who? The short answer is No - I don't know anyone on that talk page but... who are you referring to? ] (]) (]) 16:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| This quote is now being disputed, so it would be helpful to have a source. Could you point out where exactly {{u|My very best wishes}} did this? | |||
| ::Got it! Sorry, I'm slow. No, I've no idea who they are. ] (]) (]) 21:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Your comment on ] == | |||
| Thank you very much in advance and best regards,<br>] (]) 21:50, 21 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry for misunderstanding. My concern was not so much about translation as about the overall statement by Gitz in this diff. If you think it was OK, then let's keep it, I have thick skin. While I did not say exactly that, such interpretation by Gitz is not unreasonable. Both "shithole" (a reference to well know statement by Putin, see ]), and "Zombies" were present in the text, although not in the same phrase. I do not think Gitz needs to explain translation. ] (]) 22:29, 21 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hello @], I've already provided the diff in my comment at 00:27, 20 April 2023, and it is this one: ]. You'll find a poem (in Russian) on the ] (Русский мир) being a "latrine" (сортир) and an "army of slaves, zombies, brainless ]" (армия рабов, Зомби, ватников безмозглых). I've already raised the issue of MVBW's hateful posts and , which were followed by a discussion on my talk page with MVBW, . May I ask, where is the quote being disputed? Thanks, ] (]) (]) 22:41, 21 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, I think the discussion in the last link provided by Gitz explains it. Whatever. I do not really care. ] (]) 22:51, 21 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Perhaps MVBW could improve the quality of my translation - I spoke Russian when I was 11 years old, but now it has been largely forgotten and, besides, I do not have their poetic touch. How would you translate ''cортир'', MVBW: "latrine" or "shithole"? and what about the ''армия рабов, Зомби, ватников безмозглых'', "an army of slaves, zombies, brainless vatniks - is there a decent English translation for ]? ] (]) (]) 22:52, 21 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm happy to know that MVBW has a "thick skin" and doesn't "really care", but I wonder why they think that other people should have a skin as thick as theirs and show the same degree of indifference at being called brainless zombies who live in a latine. I think it is disgraceful that an editor active in the EE area, who constantly edits on Russian politics, feels free to use their user page to publish (in Russian!) insults aimed at the Russian people. ] (]) (]) 23:00, 21 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you very much for the clarification and sorry, I hadn't seen a connection between the diff and the quote. ] (]) 23:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| You reverted my removal of your comment citing ]. As the edit summary noted, I was applying a valid reason for doing so: OTHERSCOMMENTS gives an example of appropriately editing others' comments saying {{tq|'''Removing''' prohibited material such as libel; legal threats; personal details; content that is illegal under US law; or '''violations of''' copyright, '''living persons''', or anti-promotional '''policies'''. (See also below for removing comments by banned or blocked users.)}} (emphasis mine). I would suggest you self-revert your re-addition of your comment, as given Khelif's public statements and actions, it is a clear ] violation. ] (]) 22:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *Re to . Being a party of a case does not mean you should bring issues unrelated to the case, but covered by your topic ban. I commented what was the problem, but you doubled down. ] (]) 02:31, 22 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| *:@], I replied to this line argument - "out of scope" - ]. By the way, may I ask, did you complain about my comment on your Russian shitholes publicly or via email? I couldn't find your remarks. Thanks for letting me know, ] (]) (]) 14:30, 22 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::It does not matter. I am done with this case. No, I do not use email or any other off-wiki communications for a simple reason: ], and I have more important things to do in real life. ] (]) 23:39, 22 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So when ToBeFree said {{tq|This quote is now being disputed}}, he was not implying that the quote was disputed by you, right? Do you happen to know who was disputing it and where did this discussion take place? ] (]) (]) 23:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::When you provide a quote somewhere, i.e. "...", this suppose to be exact quote. That was NOT a quote of something I wrote. That was ''your own'' interpretation, which would be fine, but you posted it on Arbitration pages, along with other doubtful claims (e.g. G&K did not say that "User MVBW is a distortionist" in their article, this is your (mis)interpretation again, etc.), with intention to get other users sanctioned. I had hoped you understood my explanation , but you apparently did not. ] (]) 02:56, 23 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If you don't want to answer my questions - where did you complain about my comment, what did you say about it? - is no big deal, but I don't understand why, if you do answer, you don't provide the information I asked for and instead falsely claim that my quotes are inaccurate. What I said at ArbCom is that it's damaging that an editor with these views spends most of their time on Misplaced Pages editing on Russian politics - and on reflection you yourself are aware that you shouldn't work on these topics because you are not objective and detached enough. Let me just give you an advice: you should ] a little bit more. ] (]) (]) 09:36, 23 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No, my comments that you repeatedly remove were merely an honest answer to the ''essence'' of your questions and concerns. It was ''you'' who raised these question here on talk, and on arbitration pages, and your "pinged" me. But if you do not want to talk with me, that's fine.Then I will not talk with you. Good luck! ] (]) 12:48, 23 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::My questions and concerns (still unanswered) were {{tq|may I ask, did you complain about my comment on your Russian shitholes publicly or via email? I couldn't find your remarks. Thanks for letting me know}} and {{tq|where did you complain about my comment, what did you say about it?}} That's it, you can answer or not, as you wish, but please refrain from ]ing, as I've asked you more than once . ] (]) (]) 12:55, 23 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Since you continue to ask... I already replied "no" to your question above (i.e., no, I am not using email or any other off-wiki communications in the project). And indeed, I am not going to say more because you distort the conversation by editing it, e.g. you made a response by another user to my comment appear as response to your comment, etc. . ] (]) 14:42, 23 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I think ] was actually replying to me and thanking me for the clarification. I removed your comment for the reason I've explained to you. ] (]) (]) 22:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Both the and the current indentation correctly indicate a reply to Gitz6666, although I had intentionally used a level of indentation that made clear I was answering their 22:41, 21 April 2023 (UTC) message. ] (]) 22:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Just to clarify this issue, I criticized two things in my little poem: (a) ] ("это армия рабов, Зомби, ватников безмозглых"), and (b) a well known statement by Putin (]) where he justified the Second Chechen war and advocated extermination of ethnic minorities ("Приведут тебя в сортир И замочат в том сортире."). I do not see anything problematic with having such opinion, and believe that your posting, Gitz6666, on arbitration page was a misinterpretation of my text, along with misquote. However, since this is not relevant to the arbitration case, I do not care ''too'' much about it, so whatever. ] (]) 15:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I've already replied on your user talk page. ] (]) (]) 23:10, 22 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 26 April 2023 == | |||
| ::As a courtesy, I am notifying you that - per the instructions in the header of the article's talk page - I have now reported this at ] ] (]) 23:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Gitz, please just step back for once, heed the otherwise uninvolved user's concerns and self-revert this latest BLP vio before you find yourself the topic of the latest subthread at ANI. ―<span style="background:#368ec9;border:solid 2px;border-radius:5px"> ''''']''''' </span> 02:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::As I said to JAC on their user talk page, I don't think that my is anywhere near a BLP violation. ] (]) (]) 07:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == August 2024 == | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-04-26}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 8--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 13:16, 26 April 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| <div class="user-block uw-pblock" style="padding: 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; border: 1px solid #a9a9a9; background-color: #ffefd5; min-height: 40px">]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been ''']''' ''']''' from editing certain pages (] and ]) for Continuing to speculate on a medical condition. </div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Misplaced Pages's ], then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: <!-- Copy the text as it appears on your page, not as it appears in this edit area. Do not include the "tlx|" code. --><code><nowiki>{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}</nowiki></code>. ] (]) 12:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-pblockindef --> | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1151462414 --> | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 8 May 2023 == | |||
| {{unblock reviewed|reason= | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-05-08}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 9--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 04:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| My partial block may be contrary to policy and is certainly not necessary to avoid disruption. Before appealing, I contacted ] to clarify the reasons for the block (see ]) but some questions remain: | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:Bri@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1153070323 --> | |||
| ==Disambiguation link notification for May 9== | |||
| * Does WP:MEDRS apply to individuals' medical info such as diagnoses? | |||
| An automated process has detected that when you recently edited ], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page ]<!-- ( | )-->. | |||
| * If so, how can Misplaced Pages cover public debates about the medical conditions of public figures? | |||
| * Does WP:BLP/MEDRS forbid mentioning unconfirmed diagnoses, even hypothetically, if widely reported in non-MEDRS sources? | |||
| The block stemmed from a comment Valereee perceived as "speculative": | |||
| (].) --] (]) 06:03, 9 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * ] | |||
| == A barnstar for you! == | |||
| Please note the following: | |||
| {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Original Barnstar''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Alfred Verdross is a very good article. Great work! ] (]) 02:48, 11 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| # My comment is a conditional statement, not an assertion. Its structure is "If X, then Y". It does not claim that Khelif has a medical condition (]), only that if she does have it, then certain actions would be harmful. Speculation is a "bad theory" that states that things are a certain way without sufficient evidence (], ) and is clearly different from a conditional statement that makes no claim about how things are. | |||
| == Feedback request: History and geography request for comment == | |||
| # My comment acknowledges existing discourses: it is not baseless speculation, but responds to real-world discussions. Numerous sources have reported on the possibility that Khelif may have DSDs, e.g. news organisations (, , , , any many more), reputable sport journalists (] , , ] ), more or less WP:BIASED experts and commentators (] , , ] ). My comment does not introduce a new speculation, but engages with the existing ones. | |||
| # I am not sure WP:MEDRS applies to medical information about individuals. This has been denied in previous discussions (e.g., ]) and does not reflect WP editorial practice (see e.g. ] re Parkinson's and ], passim). If WP:MEDRS does apply to individuals, however, it should be construed in a way that does not prevent coverage of public debates about the medical conditions of public figures. If such debates are notable, editors should be allowed to address them in talk page discussions without waiting for MEDRS-level sources that will never arrive (a "review article" about Imane Khelif in a "reputable medical journal"...?). Therefore blocking editors for merely mentioning widely-reported medical hypotheses is counterproductive: it could prevent the coverage of notable topics and hinder the writing of BLP-compliant articles. | |||
| # Without making any medical claims, my comment focuses on the negative consequences of suggesting that Khelif does not have DSDs, if indeed she does. My comment prioritises Khelif's wellbeing and focuses on how certain cherry-picked and suggestive information could harm her, particularly given the abuse she's suffered. In fact, even if Khelif has DSDs, she was entitled to compete and win the Olympics according to the ]'s eligibility criteria (the only ones that matter). These criteria may be questionable, and have been questioned, but there is no doubt that Khelif's gold medal is fully legitimate even if she has DSDs. In her BLP, there's no need to suggest otherwise, thus implying that the gold medal would not be warranted if she has DSDs. Therefore, if we are to avoid unsubstantiated claims and damaging WP:BLPGOSSIP, we should not state in the lead that {{tq|Khelif was born female}}; we should rather say that she was "assigned female at birth". And we should not state that {{tq|no medical evidence that she has ] has been published}}; we should avoid speculating about her chromosomes altogether, and simply say that she has always competed in the female boxing category. However, if an editor wants to argue for these changes, as I and others have done on the Khelif talk page (e.g., (), they are bound to mention the possibility that Khelif has DSDs. Well-intentioned but short-sighted attempts to phrase the article in such a way as to suggest that Khelif does not have DSDs could lead to an unbalanced BLP. | |||
| To sum up, my comment employs a hypothetical scenario to illustrate the potential harm of certain narratives, rather than making a definitive claim about Khelif's medical condition. It is an argument about responsible editing, not unfounded speculation, and it's the kind of consideration editors should be free to make in a talk page if they are to write BLP-compliant articles. Blocking an editor simply for mentioning a hypothesis widely reported and discussed by media outlets and experts is absurd. It does not prevent disruption but interferes with reasonable content disputes. | |||
| ]Your feedback is requested  at ]. Thank you for helping out!<br/><small>You were randomly selected to receive this invitation from the list of ] subscribers. If you'd like not to receive these messages any more, you can opt out at any time by ].</small> <!-- Template:FRS notification --><div class="paragraphbreak" style="margin-top:0.5em"></div> Message delivered to you with love by ] :) | Is this wrong? Contact ]. | Sent at 14:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ;Relevant links: | |||
| == ] closed == | |||
| * Imane Khelif article and talk page: {{la|Imane Khelif}} | |||
| An arbitration case, ], has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted: | |||
| * ANI thread: ] | |||
| * BLPN thread: ] | |||
| * Valereee talk page: ] | |||
| ] (]) (]) 09:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)|decline=I think the block was correctly placed. If you feel the policy needs clarification or correction, that's a matter for ]. ] (]) 14:31, 26 August 2024 (UTC)}} | |||
| *The Arbitration Committee formally requests that the Wikimedia Foundation develop and promulgate a ] on the best practices for researchers and authors when writing about Wikipedians. The Committee requests that the white paper convey to researchers the principles of our movement and give specific recommendation for researchers on how to study and write about Wikipedians and their personal information in a way that respects our principles. Upon completion, we request that the white paper be distributed through the Foundation's research networks including email newsletters, social media accounts, and web publications such as the .{{pb}}This request will be sent by the Arbitration Committee to Maggie Dennis, Vice President of Community Resilience & Sustainability with the understanding that the task may be delegated as appropriate. | |||
| *] is superseded by the following restriction: <div style="background:ivory; border:1px solid #AAA; padding: 0.5em; margin-left: 1.6em">All articles and edits in the topic area of Polish history during World War II (1933-1945) and the history of Jews in Poland are subject to a "reliable source consensus-required" contentious topic restriction. When a source that is not an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution is removed from an article, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the ]. Administrators may enforce this restriction with page protections, topic bans, or blocks; enforcement decisions should consider not merely the severity of the violation but the general disciplinary record of the editor in violation.</div> | |||
| *{{u|François Robere}} is topic banned from the areas of World War II in Poland and the History of Jews in Poland, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| *{{u|My very best wishes}} | |||
| **is topic banned from the areas of World War II in Poland and the History of Jews in Poland, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| **Based on their disruptive attempts to defend Piotrus and Volunteer Marek, My very best wishes is subject to a 1-way interaction ban with Piotrus and a 1-way interaction ban with Volunteer Marek, subject to the usual exceptions. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| *{{u|Volunteer Marek}} | |||
| **is topic banned from the areas of World War II in Poland and the History of Jews in Poland, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| **is limited to 1 revert per page and may not revert a second time with-out a consensus for the revert, except for edits in his userspace or obvious vandalism. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| *{{u|François Robere}} and {{u|Volunteer Marek}} are ] posts and comments made by each other, subject to the normal exceptions. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| *The Arbitration Committee assumes and makes indefinite the ] between {{u|Levivich}} and {{u|Volunteer Marek}}. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| *{{u|Piotrus}} is reminded that while off-wiki communication is allowed in most circumstances, he has previously ]. He is reminded to be cautious about how and when to use off-wiki contact in the future, and to avoid future conflict, he should prioritize on-wiki communication. | |||
| *The Arbitration Committee affirms its January 2022 motion allowing editors to file for Arbitration enforcement at ARCA or Arbitration enforcement noticeboards. In recognition of the overlap of editor interest and activity between this topic area and Eastern Europe, the committee extends this provision to that topic area. It does so by adding the following text in ]: <div style="background:ivory; border:1px solid #AAA; padding: 0.5em; margin-left: 1.6em">As an alternative to ], editors may make enforcement requests directly to the Arbitration Committee at ].</div> | |||
| *The Arbitration Committee separately rescinds the part of the January 2022 motion allowing transfer of a case from Arbitration Enforcement to ARCA, in recognition of the now-standard provision in {{slink|Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee}}. It does so by striking the following text in its entirety in item number 7: <div style="background:#eaf8f4; border-left:3px solid #008560; padding: 0.5em; margin-left: 1.6em">In addition to the usual processes, a consensus of administrators at AE may refer complex or intractable issues to the Arbitration Committee for resolution at ARCA, at which point the committee may resolve the request by motion or open a case to examine the issue.</div> [] / ]] | |||
| * When considering sanctions against editors in the Eastern Europe topic area, uninvolved administrators should consider past sanctions and the findings of fact and remedies issued in this case. | |||
| Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked for up to 1 year. Administrators placing blocks should take into account an editor's overall conduct and Arbitration history and seriously consider increasing the duration of blocks. Any block 3 months or longer should be reported for automatic review either (1) at ] or (2) to an arbitrator or clerk who will open a review at ARCA. The committee will consider presented evidence and statements before deciding by motion what, if any, actions are necessary, up to and including a site ban. | |||
| *Gitz, I've unblocked you in response to your agreement not to edit ] or ], per ] on my talk. Conditional unblock logged at voluntary editing restrictions. ] (]) 12:28, 13 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| For the Arbitration Committee,<br>] (]) 18:56, 20 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * While I see that this is resolved and don't believe that further action is necessary, I'd to mention that the back-and-forths you were engaging in throughout the RfC on this article made it more difficult to close. I suggest keeping ] in mind to avoid the appearance of bludgeoning. ] (]) 19:40, 21 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| : Discuss this at: '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard|Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland closed}}'''<!-- ] (]) 18:58, 20 May 2023 (UTC) --><!--Template:hes--> | |||
| *:@], your comment prompted me to review the ], particularly my own and others' behaviour. | |||
| *:I made 12 comments, including my !vote - perhaps too many? While there's always room for improvement, all my comments were civil, based on sources and policy. You mentioned WP:PEPPER, but editors on the opposing side of the argument, whose views prevailed in the RfC, made 14 (M.Bitton) and 9 (TarnishedPath) comments. M.Bitton falsely claimed that {{tq| "Khelif was born female and identifies as female" is easily attributed to a raft of RS (way more than the proposed "assigned")}}; this was demonstrably wrong (see my comment at {{Diff2|1240445563|11:39, 15 August 2024}}) and when Barnards.tar.gz and JacktheBrown asked them to substantiate the claim, they refused saying {{tq|I'm not interested in convincing you (I know where you both stand on this)}}. Both M.Bitton and TarnishedPath repeated their arguments several times, which is the definition of WP:BLUDGEON, including the latter's flawed claim that {{tq|We should expect MEDRS sourcing if we to include material in the article which makes medical diagnosis}}. | |||
| *:Yet you only chose to comment on my behaviour, not theirs. May I ask why? Given that my views did not achieve consensus in the RfC and I am "de facto" banned from Imane Khelif, your choice feels like "kicking someone when they're down" - it doesn't even give the appearance of fairness. ] (]) (]) 23:12, 22 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *::The validity of claims is not what I'm talking to you about, so you might have missed the point of my message. Those users would have been wiser if they had walked away after leaving their !votes, but theirs weren't the ones that slowed down the close. I had to sort out four different arguments to figure out {{u|M.Bitton}}'s positions on the two issues, and two arguments to sort out {{u|TarnishedPath}}'s. You said the same things nine different ways. I'm simply advising that you lay out your thoughts all at once instead of in a scattershot style. And as a side note, I don't know how I was supposed to figure out you were "de facto banned" before I came to your talk page to leave this message. ] (]) 23:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Did I say the same thing in nine different ways, or did I make nine different arguments? I'm not convinced my comments were repetitive. What I mean by "de facto banned" is clearly explained in the thread you are commenting on, so you were obviously informed and in fact noted {{tq| I see that this is resolved}}, etc. By the way, if I'm not mistaken nine users opposed including the sentence about unpublished medical evidence, and 11 supported it. Is this a consensus for inclusion? | |||
| ::::P.S. There's no point in pinging users who were asked not to post on my talk page ] (]) (]) 04:48, 23 September 2024 (UTC)<ins>; edited 08:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)</ins> | |||
| == Feedback request: |
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| == ''The Signpost'': 22 May 2023 == | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-05-22}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 10--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 08:38, 22 May 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
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| == Monumental == | |||
| This was an act of Divine Grace. I wanted to wait until the case was over before commenting. ] (]) 13:40, 23 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you Adoring nanny for the kind comment, but honestly that was my position from the very beginning, e.g. ] ("topic bans would still be ... too harsh: less restrictive measure are at hand, and there is no need to completely renounce the contribution of experienced users"), so more than Divine Grace I'd say consistency. ] (]) (]) 13:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK for Alfred Verdross== | |||
| {{ivmbox | |||
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| |text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ''... that in the 1930s ''']''', an Austrian international lawyer and future judge of the European Court of Human Rights, sympathised with ]?'' The nomination discussion and review may be seen at ]. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page <small>(], )</small>, and the hook may be added to ] after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the ]. | |||
| }}<!-- Template:UpdatedDYK --> -- ] ] 00:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 5 June 2023 == | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-06-05}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 11--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 01:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
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| == Ciao == | |||
| Mentre transitavo tra Alfa Centauri A e B ho inavvertitamente colpito col gomito il telescopio che ha puntato wp.it e che ho visto? Sei stato bannato un'altra volta!? Ti auguro coraggio e buon lavoro qui. ] (]) 21:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Ho letto il brief sul Signpost. (...). Non riesco a trovare il giusto processo. Devo dedurre che sei stato vittima di giustizia sommaria? ] (]) 16:16, 27 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::ciao, @], giustizia sommaria e fulminante: un ], sanzione terribile e totale di cui persino ignoravo l'esistenza. Ieri però gli steward hanno accolto il mio appello e ora sono "sgloccato" (non su it.wiki però, su it.wiki mi sparano a vista). Spero che le tue traiettorie ti riportino su it.wiki prima o poi. Non lo sanno, ma hanno tanto bisogno di te. Ciao ] (]) (]) 11:04, 8 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Non ho altrettanto tempo quanto prima. Mi sembra anche che ci sia una buona probabilità che gli argomenti che mi interessano fra dieci anni potrebbero essere in gran misura ancora nello stato attuale (salvo passaggio di qualche viaggiatore extra-galattico). L'ipotesi, e il livello di coproduzione effettivamente trovato, diluiscono la forza gravitazionale di it.wiki. ] (]) 12:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Allora, se cerchi una massa gravitazionale più consistente, permettimi di ricordarti che su ] non c'è ancora una sezione sulla collaborazione della RSI con la Germania nazista e che mancano molte informazioni importanti dalla voce ]. ] (]) (]) 12:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ho dato un'occhiata alla RSI. E' in gran parte basata sul vecchio Mack Smith, poi fonti primarie, prevalenza di storia militare...che fatica da fare se uno volesse metterci le mani. :-) ] (]) 12:56, 8 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Immagino. Mille visualizzazione al giorno, ogni anno più di 300.000 persone imparano qualcosa sulla RSI da questa voce. Che non menziona nemmeno le deportazioni degli ebrei (per dirne una). ] (]) (]) 13:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 19 June 2023 == | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-06-19}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 12--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 10:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
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| == ''The Signpost'': 3 July 2023 == | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-07-03}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 13--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 08:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
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| == Welcome back? == | |||
| Never followed the particulars (except the article) but nice to see you back. ] (]) 20:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Ditto. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 02:38, 11 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Likewise ] (]) 20:27, 24 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | == Feedback request: Politics, government, and law request for comment == | ||
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| == |
== ''The Signpost'': 4 September 2024 == | ||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-09-04}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 12--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 13:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| {| style="background-color: #fdffe7; border: 1px solid #fceb92;" | |||
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| |rowspan="2" style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 3px 3px 0 3px; height: 1.5em;" | '''The Tireless Contributor Barnstar''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | Thank you very much for your dedication to ]! I'm not sure if I would've investigated the philosopher further when I first stumbled on his name, if the great page you created (was it 15 Feb 2022?) hadn't piqued my interest. | |||
| Incidentally: I hope to make some contributions to philosophy of law articles myself at some point, if you ever want to collaborate. §§ ] §§ ] §§ 16:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| == ANI Notice == | |||
| :Thank you for the barnstar, LegesFundamentales, that's much appreciated. Yes, Philosophy of law is an area I'm interested in, so I'll be happy to collaborate with you if you want to publish on one of the subjects I found listed on your user page - it's surprising that we still don't have an article on treaty making power, judicial authority, constitutional identity, etc. I've recently published an article on ] you might be interested in and I'm looking forward to publishing an article on ] - still missing. ] (]) (]) 17:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ] There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. ] (]) 23:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == August 2023 Good Article Nominations backlog drive == | |||
| == September 2024 == | |||
| {| style="border: 5px solid #ABCDEF ; background-color: #FFF; padding:10px 15px 0" | |||
| |style="padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em; font-size:130%" |'''] |''' <span style="font-size:85%">August 2023 Backlog Drive</span> | |||
| |rowspan=3|] | |||
| |- | |||
| |'''August 2023 Backlog Drive:''' | |||
| * On 1 August, a one-month backlog drive for good article nominations will begin. | |||
| * Barnstars will be awarded. | |||
| * Interested in taking part? You can ''']'''. | |||
| |- | |||
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| * ] | |||
| |- | |||
| |colspan=2 style="font-size:85%; padding-top:15px;"|You're receiving this message because you have reviewed or nominated a good article in the last year. | |||
| (] · ]) ''']''' 05:15, 30 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
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| You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at ] and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the ] and the ] may be of use. | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 1 August 2023 == | |||
| Thanks,<!-- Template:Arbcom notice --> ] (]) 11:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-08-01}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 15--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 03:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
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| == Arbitration case opened == | |||
| == Feedback request: History and geography request for comment == | |||
| You were recently listed as a party to a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at ]. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at ]. '''Please add your evidence by October 10, 2024, which is when the evidence phase closes.''' You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, ]. For a guide to the arbitration process, see ]. For the Arbitration Committee, ] ] 12:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| == ''The Signpost'': |
== ''The Signpost'': 26 September 2024 == | ||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/ |
<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-09-26}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 13--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 20:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | ||
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| Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've ] the article ] you nominated for ]-status according to the ]. ] This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. <!-- Template:GANotice --> <!-- Template:GANotice --> <small>Message delivered by ], on behalf of ]</small> -- ] (]) 04:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 19 October 2024 == | |||
| == Feedback request: History and geography request for comment == | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-10-19}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 14--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 11:14, 19 October 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
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| == Proposed decision posted == | |||
| == Anarchism == | |||
| Hi Gitz6666, in the open ] arbitration case, a ] which relates to you. Please review this decision and draw the arbitrators' attention to any relevant material or statements. Comments may be brought to the attention of the committee on the ]. For a guide to the proposed decision, see ]. For the Arbitration Committee, ] ] 23:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ] Hi Gitz6666, | |||
| == Could you c/e this if you have access to source? == | |||
| I saw ] on articles related to anarchism and wanted to say hello, as I work in the topic area too. If you haven't already, you might want to {{watch|Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Anarchism}} our ], which is a great place to ask questions, collaborate, discuss style/structure precedent, and stay informed about content related to anarchism. Take a look for yourself! | |||
| I've added some content to ], based on a footnote/ref from ] which I wrote, but that f/r is based on content from ] and the footnote is not clearly written, and the source is Italian... the linked article needs major c/e (very few footnotes, sigh). The issue of Italian prisoners could be likely expanded into a dedicated section in that article I wrote. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 04:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| And if you're looking for other juicy places to edit, consider ], , or ]. | |||
| :Thank you @] I will check this and also Antisemitism in Poland as soon as I'm finished with a couple if things in RL and on Wiki, hopefully in the next few days. ] (]) (]) 05:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Feel free to say hi on my talk page and let me know if these links were helpful (or at least interesting). Hope to see you around. <span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">]</span> 02:24, 29 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Dear Pitrus, you're right, the article does have some problems, and in my opinion it's not just a matter of copy editing. I've ordered some books on the subject and plan to work on it in the next few days. Unfortunately, this means that Antisemitism in Poland will have to wait a little longer... Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Best, ] (]) (]) 08:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 6 November 2024 == | |||
| :Hello, @], thank you for your message - I added the noticeboard to my watchlist. I don't know if you or your project can help, but in the future I'd like to expand the article on ], who was active as anarchist in the early part of his life (he directed ] and was convicted in the trial against the ]), before turning to bolshevism and joining the Russian revolution. Serge is a very interesting figure and the state of our article on him is very bad compared to the corresponsing articles on other projects (fr.wiki, de.wiki, ru.wiki, it.wiki...). | |||
| :I decided to translate the fr.wiki article on ] because I read about Liabeuf in Serge's ]. Since English is not my mother tongue, I think that translation needs some proofreading. | |||
| :By the way, I noticed in your project's ] a link to the related project on the Italian Misplaced Pages "]". Unfortuntetely that project has been inactive since 2015 . ] (]) (]) 09:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, if you need help with sources for Serge, the Anarchism noticeboard is a great place to ask! Also a good place to request a copyedit. There are a bunch of great sources already in the Serge article so it looks like the work is mainly in rebuilding the article from ]. And yes, some of the project links are old as they're mainly there for information. Sometimes editors from other language Wikipedias come to the English WikiProject for Anarchism to get help. Happy editing! <span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">]</span> 13:39, 29 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Your ] nomination of ] == | |||
| The article ] you nominated as a ] has passed ]; see ] for comments about the article, and ] for the nomination. Well done! If the article has never appeared on the Main Page as a "Did you know" item, and has not appeared within the last year either as "Today's featured article", or as a bold link under "In the news" or in the "On this day" prose section, you can ] within the next seven days to appear at DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On this day" column do not affect DYK eligibility.<!-- Template:GANotice result=pass --> <!-- Template:GANotice --> <small>Message delivered by ], on behalf of ]</small> -- ] (]) 00:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-11-06}} </div><!--Volume 20, Issue 15--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 08:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 31 August 2023 == | |||
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| == ] closed == | |||
| An arbitration case ] (formerly titled ]) has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted: | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-08-31}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 17--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 00:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1172988934 --> | |||
| ==Welcome to The Misplaced Pages Adventure!== | |||
| ] | |||
| :::::'''Hi Gitz6666!''' We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission. I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started. | |||
| ::::::* ] | |||
| ::::::* ] | |||
| ::::::* ] | |||
| ::::::* ] | |||
| -- 21:18, Monday, September 4, 2023 (]) | |||
| {{Misplaced Pages:TWA/Navigation2}} | |||
| * Yasuke is designated as a ]. Starting in 2026 and checked yearly afterwards, this designation expires on 1 January if no sanctions have been logged in the preceding 2 years. | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 16 September 2023 == | |||
| * The article ] is subject to a ] restriction for a period of one year. | |||
| * ] is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| * ] is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| * ] is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| * ] is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| * ] is warned that disruptive behavior will lead to increasing sanctions if they continue. | |||
| * ] is subject to a one-way interaction ban with Gitz6666, subject to the usual exceptions. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter. | |||
| For the Arbitration Committee, ] (]) 22:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2023-09-16}} </div><!--Volume 19, Issue 18--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 04:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
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== ''The Signpost'': 18 November 2024 == | ||
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| Yo. In random news, ] is about to be deleted from pl wiki, it has no interwikis, my BEFORE did not yield anything. Anything you see in Italian soruces, if you care, to suggest it may be notable and/or add interwiki, if it exists on it/en wiki? Pl article is not even providing the Italian name... <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 02:00, 20 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
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| :Hello @]! I had a look around but I'm not sure I understand what the subject is about: | |||
| :* First of all, the subject is not the "Fondazione Leonardo - Civiltà delle Macchine", founded in 2019 and based in Rome. It is described by the '']'' and on the website of the journal ] (which was very important in Italian political and literary culture in the 1950s and is now funded by the "Fondazione Leonardo - Civiltà delle Macchine"). This is a prominent, active and IMHO notable foundation, chaired by ]. The Italian Misplaced Pages does not have an article on them, but given their very strict standard of notability, that's hardly relevant. | |||
| :* Then we have the "Fondazione Leonardo Da Vinci" based in Milan - this is and this is a . Browsing on the internet it's very difficult for me to say whether they are notable - probably not. | |||
| :* The article on pl.wiki, however, is about something else: "''A foundation financing the activities of the Giunti publishing house in the sphere of the program of the National Edition of Leonardo da Vinci's Manuscripts and Drawings thanks to research scholarships received from the Museum and the Institute of Science in Florence. The headquarters of the foundation is Florence''" (Google translation). So they would be funding ( on the Italian OPAC), but they are not mentioned. The article on pl.wiki is not a hoax, though: in the 1970s there was a "Fondazione Leonardo Da Vinci", which published a "Bollettino della Fondazione Leonardo da Vinci" and co-published books with Giunti, e.g. and , . Maybe they were important in their time, but tht was the pre-internet era and I can't find much information about them online. ] (]) (]) 18:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks, I'll report your findings to pl wiki. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 03:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::PS. Can you elaborate on "given their very strict standard of notability"? Is it wiki's equivalent of GNG and/or practices more strict then en? I find pl wiki somewhat more lenient than what we see on en. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 03:47, 21 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, ] is stricter: notability must be "objective, <u>clearly visible, on a large-scale</u> and verifiable by means of third-party sources". As a general rule, the importance of the subject must be "<u>at least at national level</u>" and "notability must be evident from the content of the entry itself, not from research outside Misplaced Pages" (if I'm not mistaken, this is the opposite of ]). Besides, apart from the wording of the guidelines, the way they are applied is extremely restrictive, e.g. it.wiki deleted ], ], ], ] (which caused much controversy as you can read in ]), ], ] and many more. Actually they have deleted hundreds, perhaps thousands of articles whose notability is undisputed on en.wiki because they want the subject to be "remarkable" rather than notable - regardless of coverage in RS, they want it to be "one of a kind", standing out from the average, so to speak. If I'm not mistaken (which I might be), it.wiki is the most deletionist[REDACTED] in the world. ] (]) (]) 16:27, 21 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::Interesting. Meanwhile, someone is cleanup up (nominating for AfD) a bunch of da Vinci related articles on pl wiki. In case you care about this (I do, mildly), check ] (in US), ] (in Italy), ] (also in Italy). I commented on one, running out of time to dig for info on the Italian ones... no interwikis. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 08:05, 22 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::PS. And by interesting I mean very interesting :) I need to think more about it, but it is related a bit to my research interests. Research question on why it evolved into being so deletionist would be fun to answer. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 08:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yep, that is an interesting question. As for it.wiki, I have anecdotal evidence but no research hypotheses as to why it evolved into being so deletionist. It could also be a coincidence: out of 300+ language editions, some might be expected to adopt more or less extreme forms of deletionism or inclusion. I wonder about the consequences of extreme approaches for the growth of the encyclopaedia, its quality, the number of edits, the number of active editors, etc. This would also be an interesting research question for a Wikipedian with a sociological bent. ] (]) (]) 19:30, 22 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: :) <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 03:25, 23 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Another anecdote about deletionism on it.wiki. The article ] appears on 15 wikipedias but not on it.wiki - on it.wiki ]. An admin repeatedly prevented the creation of an article on the subject for the following reason: "Premature article for an encyclopaedia (which is not a news magazine): at the moment it is a news article. When there will be more reliable data and official findings on causes, dynamics, etc., we will be able to talk about it". Everybody accepted this decision. ] (]) (]) 23:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I call pl wiki inclusionist but there are weird exceptions. Pl wiki is not very fond of some topics (recent events, including in Poland, with strong faction saying this stuff belongs in wikinews, not wikipedia), and it had deleted a ton of unfinished "COVID in Fooland" articles for example saying they are unfinished (a weird argument not supported by any policy I know, but clearly supported by majority of voters...). Shrug. | |||
| ::::::::Btw, I think in the long run we will have to merge all different language projects. But it will be opposed by the community a lot. So we will see an era of third party tools (forks) that do so, using AI translation. Readers don't care for different languages, most folks these days machine translate everything. I see this in my students who often are confused about why there are different language wikis (they run broswer extensions that machine translate every page they see). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 00:30, 19 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Interesting. I suspect that active editors of a non-English wiki would never abandon their home project to merge into a global, all-encompassing English Wiki. They often take special pride in their own project's achievements, which in certain areas may indeed be remarkable. Besides, since every Wiki is based on a slightly different set of sources, reflecting the culture and values of the underlying linguistic community, their content is bound to differ: I don't expect the Polish and Latvian Wikis, or the Polish and Russian or Ukrainian Wikis, to give identical accounts of the same historical events. But I agree with you: readers can get a decent translation of any text, and in the long run that will have consequences on how sources are selected and text written. ] (]) (]) 13:37, 19 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
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| == Thank you == | |||
| Theres confusion on the Assange talk page and we disagree, but I want to thank you for trying and agreeing to a second RFC | |||
| Sometimes I have trouble explaining and when I try it can seem like an argument to people. I hope I get better at not confusing you about what I think ] (]) 02:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Thank you, Softlem, I think I got your point. You're right, there's some confusion on that talk page, but I don't see any bitter conflict. As for a second RFC on dropped vs discontinued, you are free to open it if you think it's worth it. In my view, it's a waste of time because the distinction is purely stylistic, neither "dropped" not "discontinued" would unbalance the article, so I don't think we should spend any more energy on that. But do as you please. ] (]) (]) 10:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
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Santi Romano
 | Hello, Gitz6666. This is a courtesy notice that the copy edit you requested for Santi Romano at the Guild of Copy Editors requests page is now complete. All feedback welcome! Cheers, Baffle☿gab 01:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC) |
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Random Italy question
Hope you don't mind me asking you first (I could go to WT:ITALY but I prefer personal touch I guess :>). Does it wiki have an article about the following award: "Premio Europeo Città di Caorle"? Does that award have an English name? I am working with some Polish sources about a book which won it (pl:Kluska, Kefir i Tutejszy) and wonder how to describe it and whether it can be interwikilinked to it wiki? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hello @Piotrus, I couldn't find anything about the price on it.wiki, but I did find this abstract in English from an academic essay on the subject . I am sorry I cannot be more helpful. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 06:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Yasuke Page Stuff
Since you're involved on the Yasuke talk discussion, I just thought someone should be aware of this. I'm not really sure what Misplaced Pages's policy is on coordinating on a Wikitionary talk page to coordinate changing to an article... Anyways, I just thought someone in that debacle should know it's happening. Cheers. 172.90.69.231 (talk) 11:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- thanks for letting me know. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
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July 2024
Hello, I'm Manyareasexpert. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Stara Krasnianka care house attack, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. No reliable sources are there to justify your edit, thanks! ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hello Manyareasexpert, yes, I think you made a mistake and I will nor reply on your talk page as you requested. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- They told you to reply on their talk page. Why did you say they didn't? Doug Weller talk 16:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller That is a typo. I wrote
I will nor reply
while I meant "I will now reply". In fact, I replied on their talk page. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:39, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller That is a typo. I wrote
- They told you to reply on their talk page. Why did you say they didn't? Doug Weller talk 16:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Wondering about DigitUniTO's copyright classification of Santi Romano's works
Hi, Gitz.
I was gearing up to perform a GA review on Santi Romano (your nomination is from 17 Apr 2024), so I had a look at the bibliography. There are many helpful links to his works in full, hosted here by the University of Turin (DigitUniTO, Collezioni e fondi digitali dell'Università di Torino). They seem to think that the copyright has elapsed on all of the books they scanned and uploaded (since 70 years had passed since his 1947 death), and classified them as 'pubblico dominio' (which I assume means public domain). I do not fault you for taking their word for it; given how utterly confusing (and different from country to country) copyright is, you would be hard-pressed to make your own assessment, and since they're a large academic organization, you would think they'd have checked these things thoroughly.
My grasp on copyright law is tenuous at best. Still, I fear that the university may have mistakenly uploaded some works in contravention of copyright, and that by linking to the scans, our beloved encyclopedia might be exposed to liability under U.S. law (in the form of contributory infringement). In particular, I think that the German and French translations, published in the mid-1970's, are most likely still licensed exclusively to their respective publishers (Duncker & Humblot of Berlin, and Dalloz of Paris). Maybe Italy doesn't protect translations for as long as original works, I really have no idea; but I think Misplaced Pages is held to U.S. legal standards. My thinking is that the German and French translations each created a new work, which then seperately received a brand-new U.S. copyright (possibly retroactively, in 1996). Assuming the translators were hired to translate the works by the publishers, I think the copyright would expire 95 years from the date of publication (so, sometime around 2070), or if the translators licensed the right to create translations and then sold the resulting work to the publishers, I think it would expire 70 years after the translator's death (so, assuming the translator was alive when the works were published, definitely not before 2045).
Also, the original works by Santi Romano might be under copyright in the U.S. until 95 years after their date of publication. I have no idea whether linking to those works, which Turin University is hosting legally (I believe) in Italy, could be seen to contribute to infringement of the still-active U.S. copyright, though.
I've removed the links to the two translated works, but have left the original ones for you to decide how to handle. Maybe you could e-mail the university about this, requesting feedback?
Best, §§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 16:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, @LegFun, for the message and your consideration. I'm inclined to trust the University of Turin when they say that the works they published online are in the public domain. Besides, I'm not sure I understand your concern about the German and French translations: Duncker & Humblot and Dalloz have copyright on their translations, not on the original Italian text. I'd be happy to drop an email to "DigitUniTO" (Collections and Digital Funds of the University of Turin) as you suggest, but I'd like to first have a better grasp on the issue. Given my limited knowledge of copyright, I'll notify this discussion to WP:CQ and ask form their help. Thanks, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 20:10, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I think asking at WP:CQ was the wise course of action; that option didn't really occur to me. I don't mean to make you feel obligated to write e-mails without having a full understanding of the situation and that might turn out to have been unnecessary.
- About the translations; I did ramble a bit in my original message. I believe the files that the article linked to were in fact scans of the German and French translations (though I didn't actually check the contents of the latter, relying on what the metadata provided said about the language of the file contents) – most likely making them derived but creative works under American copyright law.
- The copyright term on the underlying work by Santi Romano wouldn't be extended, of course, but I think the term for the translation would be either 95 years after the date of the translation's publication (so, 2070), or 70 year's after the translator's death (a date very unlikely to be before 2045).
- The latter is definitely how it works in Germany (§ 3 sentence 1 UrhG specifying that translations, in particular, are granted the same protections as entirely new works).
- That said, I still have no real clue whether merely keeping a hyperlink on Misplaced Pages that points to translations, possibly illegally distributed, somewhere on the internet could actually make Misplaced Pages liable in the U.S. But better safe than sorry, eh?
- Keep up all your good work!
- —§§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 23:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- You are right. Both the German edition "Die Rechtsordnung" (Duncker & Humblot, 1975) and the French "L'ordre juridique" (Dalloz, 1975) are made available by DigitUniTO as "Public domain" ( ), but DigitUniTO states "Attenzione: l'anteprima visualizza al massimo 20 pagine del documento" ("Attention: the preview displays a maximum of 20 pages of the document"). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- And then, below the (malfunctioning) preview, there's a download link for the whole document, 124 MB (under the heading Scarica il documento completo). I've checked now, it's all there. Also, no part of the document – even a 20-page preview – is likely to be in the public domain.
- —§§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 09:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- You are right again - I was able to download the German and French translations in their entirety. I can see that the German edition has "Alle Rechte vorbehalten 1975 Duncker & Humblot" (All rights reserved) on p. 4, and the French edition has a similar copyright notice from Jurisprudence génétale Dalloz on p. II. So they appear to be covered by copyright, and yet the digitised copies have been released with the explicit statement "public domain". Is that enough for us? Should we enquire? Let's hear from WP:CQ editors (this thread). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- You are right. Both the German edition "Die Rechtsordnung" (Duncker & Humblot, 1975) and the French "L'ordre juridique" (Dalloz, 1975) are made available by DigitUniTO as "Public domain" ( ), but DigitUniTO states "Attenzione: l'anteprima visualizza al massimo 20 pagine del documento" ("Attention: the preview displays a maximum of 20 pages of the document"). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I think asking at WP:CQ was the wise course of action; that option didn't really occur to me. I don't mean to make you feel obligated to write e-mails without having a full understanding of the situation and that might turn out to have been unnecessary.
The awaited Shinchō Kōki quote
Just a quick note to apologize for disappearing and to let you know I'm not ignoring things — or rather, that I am ignoring things, but only because a member of my family was injured late last week, and I've been acting as caregiver. With any luck, I should be able to post the quote from the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the Shinchō Kōki (and its translation) tomorrow afternoon. Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ 07:51, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, @Eirikr, I'm so sorry to hear about your relative's injury. I hope they make a speedy recovery. As to the quote, there's no rush at all! I truly apologize if I made it seem urgent. Thanks for your message. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:21, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
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Sayamaki on Talk: Yasuke
Hi, IP Addresses are rightly blocked from participating on Talk: Yasuke, but there is more to Sayamaki than is being presently discussed on the page and since I shared this information with Erikr, I also wanted to share it with someone else. There is | this translation from 1913 of Arai Hakuseki's Sword Book in Honchō Gunkikō, and the Book of Samé Ko Hi Sei Gi of Inaba Tsūriō. In this book, it is written The word Sayamaki was originally used to describe a regular sword, but at present only the Makitachi is ever called Sayamaki, so that name is the same as in ancient days, although its meaning has become so limited. In a book (title and author not stated) quoted in the Sokutai Shikimoku, a statement is made that "the Sayamaki is so called because it is the Amezayamaki; the style is that of the ordinmary tachi. If the scabbard is wound round with string we say Sayamaki, as when the handle is bound with string we call the weapon Itomaki no tachi. It is a common weapon of modern and ancient days." Hakuseki then expresses his doubt about that opinion being a definite one"
and also It is also mentioned in Azuma Kagami that 'On Katana and Sayamaki, both have Sageo, so that the sword called Sayamaki is undoubtedly a Katana'
on page 36 and on Page 40 it also says "There are now two kinds of swords termed Katana, namely Chiisakatana, which is the same as the old Sayamaki, and those swords now ordinarily worn with Koshikatana, decorated as Sayamaki, but containing old Tachi blades"
.
The reading and research that a Sayamaki is just a fancy tanto is rather incomplete and based on the assumption of the one who did the research. Makitachi, or Itomaki no Tachi, can be read more about here, seen here. The book also describes the Sangi-itto says, in describing the costumes of the mounted attendants of the Emperor: "Oguchi, Shitatare, and Sayamaki no to shall be worn." This is evidently the sword which we call now Chiisa Katana
and Since Katana were made, the Sayamaki no Katana has become known as Chiisakatana just in the same way as when the long tachi was called O-Dachi to distinguish it from the ancient Tachi, this later became known as the Ko-dachi. So that it is clear that in olden times the characters 小刀 were read Kogatana, and in middle-ages a sword was called Sayamaki which we now call Chiisakatana. The characters are the same as in the old days but the pronunciation has change
.
In short, according to this translation, the primary sources use of "Sayamaki" could have simply referred to a Makitachi or to a Chiisakatana. 172.90.69.231 (talk) 03:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your message. Per WP:SYNTH, we cannot combine Inaba Tsūriō's Book of Samé Ko Hi Sei Gi with the quote from the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the Shinchō Kōki, and say that Yasuke was given a "Makitachi" or a "Chiisakatana". However, the source you shared suggests that it would be wrong to translate sayamaki with "short sword"; we'd better just translate it as "sword", and leave the potentially hard question of "what kind of sword?" unaddressed by our translation. I will notify this exchange on the Yasuke talk page. Thanks, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Understandable! If you all want to peruse the soruce yourself, it is available here. I think some of the confusion that is present on the talkpage regarding the quotes that I provided is that I am not suggesting there is one definitive translation for Sayamaki. Rather, I am saying that according to this book a Makitachi was also called a Sayamaki, and a Chiisagatana was called a Sayamaki, as well as what Erikr found was also something called a Sayamaki. My point mainly is that according to this translation of a near-contemporary primary source (not specific to Yasuke, but rather to the definition of the word Sayamaki itself) Sayamaki had a multitude of possible meanings. For instance, Page 37 reads
The word Sayamaki is not used only for the kind of sword with string-bound scabbard, but sometimes it is adapted to swords which have strings to fasten the scabbard through the belt so as to prevent it from slipping out (see above the reference to Sanada Yoichi).
- The above reference to Sanada Yoichi is on Page 36 and reads
Moreover, we find in Gempei Seisuiki that during the war of Ishibashiyama, Sanada no Yoichi Yoshitada, while wrestling with his enemy Matano , wished to cut the latter's head off, but he could not stab him, and feeling astonished, he lifted his sword and looked at it above the (clouds) sky, when he found that the Kurikata of his Sayamaki was broken, so that the sword came out of his belt with its scabbard. It is also mentioned in Azuma Kagami that "On Katana and Sayamaki, both have Sageo, so that the sword called Sayamaki is undoubtedly a Katana.
- Since Sayamaki seems to have multiple possible meanings, we cannot know for certain what meaning of Sayamaki the document is using since it isn't specified. While we cannot say the Sayamaki mention in the source is a Makitachi, we also can't say it wasn't one, which is also why the historian in question said that Sayamaki could have also referred to a tachi. We have a subject matter expert who on Twitter has said that Sayamaki could mean a great sword, Per Misplaced Pages:Identifying_and_using_self-published_works#Acceptable use of self-published works,
The author is an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications, except for exceptional claims. Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so
, and I have no presented a source, translated in 1913, which supports the statement of the expert that a Sayamaki could be a tachi. Per the post on the talk page,The K. Hirayama poster on Twitter maintains here on July 19 that there were tachi greatswords with a sayamaki mounting. While I have found pictures online that appear to be this kind of setup (such as the fourth from the top in this image at Wikimedia Commons), these are often described as "ceremonial", and the use of a sayamaki mounting on a longer sword does not seem common; in almost all cases I've seen or read about so far, the sayamaki mounting is reserved for tantō.
. - The twitter in question is here. Specifically, this section
でも、「鞘巻」は「鞘巻之太刀」を示す場合が多いのはご存じでしょうか。
Which reads, in essence, "However, did you know that often refers to ". Per WP: Guidelines, the translations of sources is to be trusted over the translations of Wikipedians Per Misplaced Pages:RSUEQ, which means the translation of Sayamaki from the book is preferable to the translation of any Wikipedian. So we have a historian who is a subject matter expert that says Sayamaki often referred to Sayamaki Tachi, and a book translation from 1913 that also says Sayamaki once referred to Makitachi. The article should not definitively represent the Sayamaki as just a shortsword. Even to that end, depicting it as a tantō is possibly incorrect. - Arai Hakuseki in "My Father", translated by Hiroaki Sato in Legends of the Samurai describes of his father
After he passed seventy, my father developed pain in his left elbow. On account of this he offered to resign from his post, but the Kohō would have none of it. From then on he went to work wearing only a sayamaki sword14 that was two inches wide and about a foot long, making a servant carry his long sword until he reached his office. When I think of it now, it must have presented a strange spectacle, but people didn’t object to it, and of course the Kohō didn’t seem to want to say anything. Come to think of it, my father must have thought, If something happens, it won’t do if you carry a sword but can’t use it. On the other hand, I have pain and can’t possibly use a sword. Well then, if it’s something useless, I might as well not carry it myself. Until his death my father always kept this sayamaki close at hand and, following the word he left when he died, I sent it to the person he adopted as a child and brought up, who now lives in Michinoku. As for its decorations, the iron part had waves carved on it; the sheath was lacquered black except for the part called “thousand coils,” which had gold foil underneath. After taking the tonsure, he kept it in a bag made of “toad-skin” leather
- A foot long would place the sword more in-line with a wakizashi than the proposed tantō. Per The Japan Weekly Mail circa 1875,
"Chisakatana is about two feet long to two and a-half feet, and lighter than the ordinary blade, and is worn with the naga hakama and the court dress called daimon"
and"Sayamaki has a portion of the scabbard bound with silk. The mountings are numerous and the making of them is a special and honourable trade. Goto Yujo was a celebrated maker of the 15th century, whose descendants still exist"
- Per the Transactions and Proceedings of the Japan Society, London, 1897,
"The ordinary war tachi had frequently a scabbard of plain wood, or of plain or decorated lacquer, and the upper part was often wound round with braid or leather, like the hilt, and was then called "ito maki" tachi. When this braid covered the entire scabbard it was a "sayamaki" tachi. Some were wound with rattan or covered with brocade, and there were at least eleven varieties of tachi worn at court on different occasions"
andThe scabbard of the "chisa-katana," a sword intermediate between the katana and the wakizashi, and worn by itself, was more highly ornamented, having frequently not only a kozuka, but large menuki and an elaborate "kojiri."
- Likewise,
Here the term dai does not refer to the katana long sword but actually refers to the tachi great sword. There is a type of tachi great sword that is worn with a katana-obi (刀帯) and this is called the efu no tachi (衛府太刀). The efu no tachi was so named because it was worn by those within the six sections of e (衛) and the six sections of fu (府) – these were military officials in the imperial court.323 You should know that there are a variety of styles of tachi great sword. Furthermore, understand that the word sayamaki (鞘巻) is a subtle way to refer to a tachi great sword
from Samurai Arms, Armour & the Tactics of Warfare: The Collected Scrolls of Natori-Ryu (Book of Samurai), Page 264. Antony Cummins has a degree in Ancient History and Archaeology and a masters in Archaeology. He is the founder of the Historical Ninjutsu Research Team, who examine and translate ancient documents to reveal the truth about the Ninja. He has appeared in the documentaries Ninja Shadow Warriors, Samurai Head Hunters, Samurai Warrior Queens and Ancient Black Ops. He is the author of ten books including the best-selling Book of Ninja, Samurai War Stories, and The Illustrated Guide to Viking Martial Arts.
- Further, we see
Nodachi when they wear underdress ready for armors, and Sayamaki when they are on battlefield
in 馬埸辰猪全集 Volume 3 by Baba Tatsui. - Overall, it's safer to translate it as "sword", because while Erikr might state
in almost all cases I've seen or read about so far, the sayamaki mounting is reserved for tantō
, I've just found a bunch of sources that disagree with the notion that it can be definitvely declared a tantō, a tachi, or a shortsword since it has, historically, been used to describe all three of those things. 172.90.69.231 (talk) 21:45, 24 July 2024 (UTC)- Yes, but yesterday I changed the translation to "sword" and I was not reverted, so now there is nothing to correct. I have no idea who is right and who is wrong, but "sword" cannot be wrong. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 06:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sword is the best possible solution, yeah. I mostly wanted to provide additional sources to demonstrate that we cannot definitively say what the "sayamaki" used in the source was since there are a number of possible items which could have been described as a sayamaki. 172.90.69.231 (talk) 07:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, but yesterday I changed the translation to "sword" and I was not reverted, so now there is nothing to correct. I have no idea who is right and who is wrong, but "sword" cannot be wrong. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 06:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Understandable! If you all want to peruse the soruce yourself, it is available here. I think some of the confusion that is present on the talkpage regarding the quotes that I provided is that I am not suggesting there is one definitive translation for Sayamaki. Rather, I am saying that according to this book a Makitachi was also called a Sayamaki, and a Chiisagatana was called a Sayamaki, as well as what Erikr found was also something called a Sayamaki. My point mainly is that according to this translation of a near-contemporary primary source (not specific to Yasuke, but rather to the definition of the word Sayamaki itself) Sayamaki had a multitude of possible meanings. For instance, Page 37 reads
Yasuke stuff
I dont necessarily want to start any drama or anything explosive so i hope you dont think thats my intent.
However the past couple days/week I've begun to feel that Eirikr, has begun to display behavior that's sort of sliding in between stonewalling or bludgeoning or if there's a policy specifically about attempting to force ones POV as the objective truth as opposed to what I think[REDACTED] is meant for.
That and the influx of people who have suddenly appeared from seemingly unrelated works and whose post all seem to align specifically with him makes me hesitant about the intentions due to the wikitionary event.
Im by no means trying to say that its something hes doing purposefully or is doing bad faith but his recent comments seem contradictory to his supposed stance and his statements seem more inclined to mislead or direct people in a way that they arent getting the actual truth or information on the subject that and the other accounts just make me wonder if maybe theres a need to look into his behaviour on the page? I am attempting to talk with him first about this cause i dont want to cause some sort of drama unnecessarily or anything but I just aort of just have this bad feeling and felt i needed to say something. 66.226.103.77 (talk) 06:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- May I suggest that you write to Eirikr directly? I don't understand why you are complaining about someone else's behaviour on my talk page. I'm neither their tutor nor an admin. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Sayamaki Note
I included "usage of the word is unclear" because the translation is being furnished entirely by Misplaced Pages editors with no input from professional historians. While it might be crystal clear to historians, I did not think it would be WP:OR to contextualize the translation being provided by stating that it is unclear what the intended meaning is per Misplaced Pages:These are not original research which stated Any original translations should be faithful, to the point of literalness; if interpretation is called for, it should be explicitly in parenthetical notes
. My apologies. Brocade River Poems 08:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is nothing to apologise for, there's room for disagreement on this kind of things related to article content and in that case the talk page is the right place to adddress it. Thanks for your message, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
You reverted my comment toward Symphonic Regalia.
I don't mind if you want to abuse Misplaced Pages rules to revert my notifications to other users about ideological trolling on talk pages. Please explain to me, however, how I can follow the rules while still notifying users of the above? Symphonic Regalia used Thomas Lockley as factual evidence to belittle and troll others into his worldview and opinion which has now been discredited. He continues to do this behavior. I understand you are not him, but you clearly sympathize with his opinions and feel the need to defend him since he agrees with you, so I'd like to understand the best way for me to indicate to people on the talk page of his agenda and history of incorrect claims without getting it reverted. Thanks. Nocomputersintexas (talk) 08:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Please, see WP:TALK. On article talk pages, WP users are expected to discuss only article content (and strictly related topics, such as article sources). We should not discuss user behaviour there, as it is off-topic and can easily become inflammatory (the article talk page quickly becomes an unreadable mess of off-topic back and forth). If you want to discuss user behaviour, you can do so on their user talk page (in this case, here), or on the appropriate dispute resolution forums, such as WP:AN/I. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've redirected my inquiry of your "behavior" to the admin on my talk page, I look forward to his response either way as I am starting to think something suspicious is going on with your conduct. Nocomputersintexas (talk) 09:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
User:Nocomputersintexas
There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Brocade River Poems 19:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
August 2024
Was this deletion accidental? M.Bitton (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it was accidental. Sorry about that. I'm going to revert. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I see you've already remedied my clumsy edit abd restored your comment. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
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Utterly, uttlerly horrid
Gitz, do you know who this jackass is? Drmies (talk) 16:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Who? The short answer is No - I don't know anyone on that talk page but... who are you referring to? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Got it! Sorry, I'm slow. No, I've no idea who they are. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Your comment on Talk:Imane Khelif
You reverted my removal of your comment citing WP:OTHERSCOMMENTS. As the edit summary noted, I was applying a valid reason for doing so: OTHERSCOMMENTS gives an example of appropriately editing others' comments saying Removing prohibited material such as libel; legal threats; personal details; content that is illegal under US law; or violations of copyright, living persons, or anti-promotional policies. (See also below for removing comments by banned or blocked users.)
(emphasis mine). I would suggest you self-revert your re-addition of your comment, as given Khelif's public statements and actions, it is a clear WP:BLP violation. JustAnotherCompanion (talk) 22:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've already replied on your user talk page. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:10, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- As a courtesy, I am notifying you that - per the instructions in the header of the article's talk page - I have now reported this at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Imane Khelif JustAnotherCompanion (talk) 23:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Gitz, please just step back for once, heed the otherwise uninvolved user's concerns and self-revert this latest BLP vio before you find yourself the topic of the latest subthread at ANI. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 02:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I said to JAC on their user talk page, I don't think that my restored comment is anywhere near a BLP violation. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
August 2024
{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. Valereee (talk) 12:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Gitz6666 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
My partial block may be contrary to policy and is certainly not necessary to avoid disruption. Before appealing, I contacted Valereee to clarify the reasons for the block (see User_talk:Valereee#Block_from_Khelif) but some questions remain:
- Does WP:MEDRS apply to individuals' medical info such as diagnoses?
- If so, how can Misplaced Pages cover public debates about the medical conditions of public figures?
- Does WP:BLP/MEDRS forbid mentioning unconfirmed diagnoses, even hypothetically, if widely reported in non-MEDRS sources?
The block stemmed from a comment Valereee perceived as "speculative":
Please note the following:
- My comment is a conditional statement, not an assertion. Its structure is "If X, then Y". It does not claim that Khelif has a medical condition (DSDs), only that if she does have it, then certain actions would be harmful. Speculation is a "bad theory" that states that things are a certain way without sufficient evidence (Merriam-Webster, Cambridge Dictionary) and is clearly different from a conditional statement that makes no claim about how things are.
- My comment acknowledges existing discourses: it is not baseless speculation, but responds to real-world discussions. Numerous sources have reported on the possibility that Khelif may have DSDs, e.g. news organisations (The Independent, NYT, DW, BBC, any many more), reputable sport journalists (Barney Ronay , Alan Abrahamson , Martin Samuel ), more or less WP:BIASED experts and commentators (Doriane Lambelet Coleman , Colin Wright , Helen Lewis ). My comment does not introduce a new speculation, but engages with the existing ones.
- I am not sure WP:MEDRS applies to medical information about individuals. This has been denied in previous discussions (e.g., here) and does not reflect WP editorial practice (see e.g. Vladimir Putin re Parkinson's and Julian Assange, passim). If WP:MEDRS does apply to individuals, however, it should be construed in a way that does not prevent coverage of public debates about the medical conditions of public figures. If such debates are notable, editors should be allowed to address them in talk page discussions without waiting for MEDRS-level sources that will never arrive (a "review article" about Imane Khelif in a "reputable medical journal"...?). Therefore blocking editors for merely mentioning widely-reported medical hypotheses is counterproductive: it could prevent the coverage of notable topics and hinder the writing of BLP-compliant articles.
- Without making any medical claims, my comment focuses on the negative consequences of suggesting that Khelif does not have DSDs, if indeed she does. My comment prioritises Khelif's wellbeing and focuses on how certain cherry-picked and suggestive information could harm her, particularly given the abuse she's suffered. In fact, even if Khelif has DSDs, she was entitled to compete and win the Olympics according to the IOC's eligibility criteria (the only ones that matter). These criteria may be questionable, and have been questioned, but there is no doubt that Khelif's gold medal is fully legitimate even if she has DSDs. In her BLP, there's no need to suggest otherwise, thus implying that the gold medal would not be warranted if she has DSDs. Therefore, if we are to avoid unsubstantiated claims and damaging WP:BLPGOSSIP, we should not state in the lead that
Khelif was born female
; we should rather say that she was "assigned female at birth". And we should not state thatno medical evidence that she has XY chromosomes has been published
; we should avoid speculating about her chromosomes altogether, and simply say that she has always competed in the female boxing category. However, if an editor wants to argue for these changes, as I and others have done on the Khelif talk page (e.g., (), they are bound to mention the possibility that Khelif has DSDs. Well-intentioned but short-sighted attempts to phrase the article in such a way as to suggest that Khelif does not have DSDs could lead to an unbalanced BLP.
To sum up, my comment employs a hypothetical scenario to illustrate the potential harm of certain narratives, rather than making a definitive claim about Khelif's medical condition. It is an argument about responsible editing, not unfounded speculation, and it's the kind of consideration editors should be free to make in a talk page if they are to write BLP-compliant articles. Blocking an editor simply for mentioning a hypothesis widely reported and discussed by media outlets and experts is absurd. It does not prevent disruption but interferes with reasonable content disputes.
- Relevant links
- Imane Khelif article and talk page: Imane Khelif (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- ANI thread: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Imane_Khelif_should_get_1RR_Arbitration_Enforcement
- BLPN thread: Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Imane_Khelif
- Valereee talk page: User_talk:Valereee#Block_from_Khelif
Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Decline reason:
I think the block was correctly placed. If you feel the policy needs clarification or correction, that's a matter for WT:MEDRS. 331dot (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
- Gitz, I've unblocked you in response to your agreement not to edit Imane Khelif or Talk:Imane Khelif, per this post on my talk. Conditional unblock logged at voluntary editing restrictions. Valereee (talk) 12:28, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- While I see that this is resolved and don't believe that further action is necessary, I'd to mention that the back-and-forths you were engaging in throughout the RfC on this article made it more difficult to close. I suggest keeping WP:PEPPER in mind to avoid the appearance of bludgeoning. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:40, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Thebiguglyalien, your comment prompted me to review the RfC, particularly my own and others' behaviour.
- I made 12 comments, including my !vote - perhaps too many? While there's always room for improvement, all my comments were civil, based on sources and policy. You mentioned WP:PEPPER, but editors on the opposing side of the argument, whose views prevailed in the RfC, made 14 (M.Bitton) and 9 (TarnishedPath) comments. M.Bitton falsely claimed that
"Khelif was born female and identifies as female" is easily attributed to a raft of RS (way more than the proposed "assigned")
; this was demonstrably wrong (see my comment at 11:39, 15 August 2024) and when Barnards.tar.gz and JacktheBrown asked them to substantiate the claim, they refused sayingI'm not interested in convincing you (I know where you both stand on this)
. Both M.Bitton and TarnishedPath repeated their arguments several times, which is the definition of WP:BLUDGEON, including the latter's flawed claim thatWe should expect MEDRS sourcing if we to include material in the article which makes medical diagnosis
. - Yet you only chose to comment on my behaviour, not theirs. May I ask why? Given that my views did not achieve consensus in the RfC and I am "de facto" banned from Imane Khelif, your choice feels like "kicking someone when they're down" - it doesn't even give the appearance of fairness. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- The validity of claims is not what I'm talking to you about, so you might have missed the point of my message. Those users would have been wiser if they had walked away after leaving their !votes, but theirs weren't the ones that slowed down the close. I had to sort out four different arguments to figure out M.Bitton's positions on the two issues, and two arguments to sort out TarnishedPath's. You said the same things nine different ways. I'm simply advising that you lay out your thoughts all at once instead of in a scattershot style. And as a side note, I don't know how I was supposed to figure out you were "de facto banned" before I came to your talk page to leave this message. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- Did I say the same thing in nine different ways, or did I make nine different arguments? I'm not convinced my comments were repetitive. What I mean by "de facto banned" is clearly explained in the thread you are commenting on, so you were obviously informed and in fact noted
I see that this is resolved
, etc. By the way, if I'm not mistaken nine users opposed including the sentence about unpublished medical evidence, and 11 supported it. Is this a consensus for inclusion?
- Did I say the same thing in nine different ways, or did I make nine different arguments? I'm not convinced my comments were repetitive. What I mean by "de facto banned" is clearly explained in the thread you are commenting on, so you were obviously informed and in fact noted
- The validity of claims is not what I'm talking to you about, so you might have missed the point of my message. Those users would have been wiser if they had walked away after leaving their !votes, but theirs weren't the ones that slowed down the close. I had to sort out four different arguments to figure out M.Bitton's positions on the two issues, and two arguments to sort out TarnishedPath's. You said the same things nine different ways. I'm simply advising that you lay out your thoughts all at once instead of in a scattershot style. And as a side note, I don't know how I was supposed to figure out you were "de facto banned" before I came to your talk page to leave this message. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- P.S. There's no point in pinging users who were asked not to post on my talk page Gitz (talk) (contribs) 04:48, 23 September 2024 (UTC); edited 08:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
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Proposed decision posted
Hi Gitz6666, in the open Backlash to diversity and inclusion arbitration case, a remedy or finding of fact has been proposed which relates to you. Please review this decision and draw the arbitrators' attention to any relevant material or statements. Comments may be brought to the attention of the committee on the proposed decision talk page. For a guide to the proposed decision, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Party Guide/Proposed decision. For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust 💬 23:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
Could you c/e this if you have access to source?
I've added some content to Italian prisoners of war in the Soviet Union, based on a footnote/ref from Soviet atrocities committed against prisoners of war during World War II which I wrote, but that f/r is based on content from Allied war crimes during World War II and the footnote is not clearly written, and the source is Italian... the linked article needs major c/e (very few footnotes, sigh). The issue of Italian prisoners could be likely expanded into a dedicated section in that article I wrote. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you @Piotrus I will check this and also Antisemitism in Poland as soon as I'm finished with a couple if things in RL and on Wiki, hopefully in the next few days. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 05:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
- Dear Pitrus, you're right, the article does have some problems, and in my opinion it's not just a matter of copy editing. I've ordered some books on the subject and plan to work on it in the next few days. Unfortunately, this means that Antisemitism in Poland will have to wait a little longer... Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Best, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
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Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke closed
An arbitration case Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke (formerly titled Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Backlash to diversity and inclusion) has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
- Yasuke is designated as a contentious topic. Starting in 2026 and checked yearly afterwards, this designation expires on 1 January if no sanctions have been logged in the preceding 2 years.
- The article Yasuke is subject to a 1RR restriction for a period of one year.
- Eirikr is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- Symphony Regalia is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- J2UDY7r00CRjH is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- Yvan Part is topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
- Gitz6666 is warned that disruptive behavior will lead to increasing sanctions if they continue.
- Elinruby is subject to a one-way interaction ban with Gitz6666, subject to the usual exceptions. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust (talk) 22:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke closed
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There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Ethiopian Epic (talk) 06:48, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
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