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| |text=We have a — Columbia has a program. It’s a graduate relationship with older students from other countries, including Israel. And it’s something that many of us were concerned about, because so many of those Israeli students, who then come to the Columbia campus, are coming right out of their military service. And they’ve been known to harass Palestinian and other students on our campus. And it’s something the university has not taken seriously in the past. | |||
| ==Notice of reliable sources noticeboard discussion== | |||
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| ] There is currently a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is ].<!--Template:RSN-notice--> Thank you. I am informing you because you have commented on a ]. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 01:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
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| *'''Option 1'''. The evidence provided here by Loki distorts the articles and mainly hinges on The Telegraph not taking a pro-trans viewpoint. There's not much new compared to the last RfC. | |||
| |author=Katherine Franke | |||
| :To go point-by-point (starting with the 0th), The Telegraph never promoted the "litterboxes in schools" hoax. The articles cited by {{u|LokiTheLiar}} claimed students identified as animals, not that they requested accommodation in the form of litterboxes. The first claim is much more believable than the second, and was based on a recorded conversation in which a teacher at Rye College asserted a student was offended because their identity as a cat was questioned. | |||
| |source=Interview with ]<ref>{{cite web |title=Professors Slam Columbia’s Response to Chemical Attack at Pro-Palestine Protest |url=https://www.democracynow.org/2024/1/25/columbia_palestine_protest_attack |website=Democracy Now! |access-date=15 January 2025 |language=en}}</ref>}} | |||
| ::Specifically, this controversy was because a student was reprimanded for not accepting that a classmate of theirs could identify as a cat. This student recorded the conversation and leaked it to the media. The contents of the conversation itself implied that a classmate *did* identify as a cat, which Pink News acknowledged. {{tq|In the recording, which was shared with the press, the teacher is also heard saying that a student had upset a fellow pupil by “questioning their identity” after the student asked, “how can you identify as a cat when you’re a girl?”}} And when The Telegraph initially asked the school for comment, they did not deny the story. While the school later denied the claims of cats in schools, that does not invalidate the original reporting which was based on a recorded conversation. There was also no "debunking" of the original story beyond the school's denial that students identified as cats. The Guardian said: {{tq|Although the report does not directly address the argument between the teacher and pupils, or the question of whether any pupils identify as animals, it praises the quality of staff training and teaching of relationship and sex education “in a sensitive and impartial way”}} in reference to whether or not the Ofsted report indirectly cited by Loki debunked the claim that students identified as animals. | |||
| ::It's bizarre to claim that The Telegraph knowingly spread false information when the contents of the recording the story was based on indicated that a student did identify as a cat, and the school did not even dispute the truthfulness of the allegation. How were they supposed to know that this was false when they published the story? | |||
| ::If you want to refute my point that The Telegraph said that animal-identifying students are getting litterboxes in schools, '''you merely have to provide a quote''' from the article saying so. | |||
| :In response to your first point, that quoting anti-transgender activist groups makes The Telegraph unreliable, this is standard journalistic practice. A newspaper giving both sides of the story does not make it unreliable. Your standard, that The Telegraph should ''not'' quote any anti-trans activists when covering transgender-related topics, is untenable. The Telegraph does not misrepresent Esses' affiliation by describing him as a therapist, only as a spokesperson for a group of therapists. | |||
| ::In more detail, James Esses is a spokesperson for Thoughtful Therapists. He is passionate about this issue because he was thrown out of his master's program for holding gender-critical beliefs. You do not have to be a therapist to be an activist about therapy. Should the ] be deplatformed because it's chief organizer, ], was fired from his job at Amazon? | |||
| ::In the first article cited by Loki , the article accurately describes Esses as {{tq|a co-founder of Thoughtful Therapists, a group of counsellors and psychologists concerned with impact of gender ideology on young people}} The article does not say that he is a therapist, and it describes his group as an entity that advocates against gender ideology. | |||
| ::The second article provides a quote saying that the tweet {{tq|Remember, trans lesbians are lesbians too. Let’s uplift and honour every expression of love and identity.}} contravenes the ]. While you describe this as {{tq|pretty transparently ridiculous}}, ], the ], said in an official position paper from the UN that {{tq|Building on the implicit understanding that the word “woman” refers to biological females, the CEDAW Committee’s reference to lesbian women can only be understood to mean biological females that are attracted to biological females}} Unless you propose to say that the United Nations is also unreliable on interpreting its own treaties, the claim that "trans lesbians are lesbians" does, in fact, contravene CEDAW. | |||
| ::The third article says that Sex Matters is a women's rights group. They advocate for what they see as women's rights, which they don't view as including trans women. At best, this demonstrates that The Telegraph is biased in favour of a gender-critical viewpoint since they're adopting the preferred verbiage of such. This isn't a factual distortion and isn't very ] given that the UN says women's rights refer to ciswomen's rights. | |||
| :On your 2nd point, the statement that trans women are women or that trans men are men is a litmus test for agreement with the ]. It's a commonly-held political position, one held by the ] and the Education Secretary of the UK . Proposing to designate The Telegraph as unreliable on that basis alone is illogical since by that logic we should get rid of ]. But the sources you provided don't even authoritatively state that trans women aren't women. | |||
| ::Your first source says that {{tq|It means male patients who do not claim to live as women have the right to choose to stay on women’s wards.}} It criticizes the idea that people assigned male at birth who have not received gender-reassignment surgery nor made any effort to physically transition can self-identify as women to be assigned to women's only wards in hospitals; many people who haven't legally transitioned to female can be treated in hospitals in women-only environments. In other words, the Telegraph says that '''people identifying but not-legally-recognized-as trans women are not women'''. At no point does the article "directly allege" that trans women are not women. | |||
| ::Your second source says that a 13-year-old socially transitioned without the mother of such knowing. The ], a systemic review of evidence in the field of transgender medicine, points out the same concerns on page 160, point 12.16, and says that socially transitioning young girls could reinforce feelings of gender incongruence. Saying that a socially transitioned 13-year-old might not really be trans is not saying that "trans women are not women" and that is not asserted in the article. | |||
| ::Your third source does dispute that trans women are women, but appears to be an outside opinion piece from Richard Garside, who "is the director of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies". That's not an official policy of the newspaper, and per ], opinion pieces already have a lower standard of reliability. | |||
| ::Your fourth source says that there is a distinction between biological sex and gender, then acknowledges that students ''can'' change gender, i.e. be transgender. | |||
| ::It is telling that you did not provide any quotes from these articles despite your claim that they all "alleged directly" this claim. If they make these direct allegations, you should be able to provide quotes for the ones I have refuted. | |||
| :For your third point, the first article just reports that transgender women can produce milk to feed babies and an NHS trust says that this is equivalent to normal breastmilk. Then it discusses how the patient leaflet for the drug used to facilitate this, Motilium, says {{tq|Small amounts have been detected in breastmilk. Motilium may cause unwanted side effects affecting the heart in a breastfed baby. should be used during breastfeeding only if your physician considers this clearly necessary.}} I'm not sure how the claim that trans women's breastmilk is safe is {{tq|a medical fact that the medical community has come to a consensus on}}, when you literally said that you "read between the lines" to get to that conclusion and caveated your statement with an "appears to be". If you're going to say that this is the consensus of the medical community maybe provide some citations instead of just assuming things are true because you don't like The Telegraph? | |||
| :The second article for your third point quotes Dr. Ross Tucker, a respected sports scientist, saying that the study compared unathletic trans women to athletic cis women. It had a self-selected participant base of 69 volunteers responding to a social media advertisement. The claim is that the study is poor-quality research funded to advance a viewpoint. You say that the second article is {{tq|anti-trans activists whining about a study that came to a conclusion they don't like}}, but the people quoted in the article are a doctor + British olympians + the chair of Sex Matters, who all raise serious issues with the study such as a small effect size and the difference in athleticism between the two populations. | |||
| :I am not going to read your link because anything you didn't bother posting here is probably even lower quality than what you did. | |||
Latest revision as of 16:51, 15 January 2025
Katherine Franke, Interview with Democracy Now!We have a — Columbia has a program. It’s a graduate relationship with older students from other countries, including Israel. And it’s something that many of us were concerned about, because so many of those Israeli students, who then come to the Columbia campus, are coming right out of their military service. And they’ve been known to harass Palestinian and other students on our campus. And it’s something the university has not taken seriously in the past.
- "Professors Slam Columbia's Response to Chemical Attack at Pro-Palestine Protest". Democracy Now!. Retrieved 15 January 2025.