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	== RFC: The Anti-Defamation League ==
	<!-- ] 05:01, 2 June 2029 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|2222222222}}
	In an , editors expressed concerns regarding the ADL's current status as a generally reliable source in several topic areas. I'm breaking these topic areas into different RFCs, as I believe there's a reasonable chance they might have different outcomes. ] (]) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	=== Part 1: Israel/Palestine ===
	{{archive top|I see a consensus for '''Option 3''' — going by the numbers (roughly, 3:1) as well as the relative strength of arguments — and note that most of the participants were okay-ish with deprecation too. ] (]) 14:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)}}
	<!-- ] 11:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1715511671}}
	What is the reliability of the ] regarding the Israel/Palestine conflict?
	* '''Option 1: ]'''
	* '''Option 2: ]'''
	* '''Option 3: ]'''
	* '''Option 4: ]'''
	] (]) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	====Survey (ADL:I/P)====
	* '''Option 3'''. The ADL is heavily biased regarding Israel/Palestine to the point of often acting as a pro-Israel lobbying organization. This can and does compromise its ability to accurately report facts regarding people and organizations that disagree with it on this issue, especially non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews and Jewish organizations. ] (]) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3'''. Its CEO publicly comparing the pro-Palestine protestors wearing ] with Nazis wearing ] armbands as well as mispresenting all pro-Palestine protestors as "wanting all zionists dead" demonstrates its skewed views and manipulative presentation on the IP topic and thus highly unreliable. -- ] (] · ]) 00:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1'''. No evidence has been posted of unreliability - of them making false claims. It's unclear to me why we are even hosting this discussion without such evidence, and in the absence of it we shouldn't change ADL's rating. ] (]) 00:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 4'''. Contrary to BilledMammal's ]-esque reply, the previous two commenters have concretely pointed out multiple examples of their unreliability. and are two articles detailing many more instances of the ADL's specious and less-than-credible reporting, as well as its history of intimidating, harassing, and bullying its critics and critics of Israel. The ADL has a history of and , all of which belie their apparent stated intentions of being an organization working to {{tq|Protect Democracy and Ensure a Just and Inclusive Society For All}}, and provide clear evidence they are a pro-Israel advocacy organization masquerading as a human rights group. I could go on. It just isn't a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination on anything but the most quotidian of claims. ] (]) 01:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*: Reading those articles, they don't appear to be discussing matters of factual falsehood, but of differences of opinion, as well as actions taking by ADL that the authors disagree with. If I am wrong and have misunderstood those articles then please correct me and provide quotes.
	*: In fact, those articles even say that in terms of "use by others", ADL is still considered reliable by top quality reliable sources! For example, The Nation article says {{tq|The problem is that The New York Times, PBS, and other mainstream outlets that reach millions are constantly and uncritically promoting the ADL and amplifying the group’s questionable charges.}}
	*: If we declare that ADL is unreliable here we will be taking a fringe position that most mainstream sources would disagree with. ] (]) 01:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Are you sure you mean option 4? Option 4 is deprecate, which has never been done for only one topic area of a source before, because it means removing the source from any article it appears in for any reason. ] (]) 01:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:: "questionable charges" is an accusation of unreliability. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:I think this !vote is in the wrong section as the ADL claims that the Nation and Jewish Currents articles critiques are about antisemitism and not about Israel/Palestine. The two critiques (both opinion pieces) largely refer to questions of interpretation or to historical co-operation with and the US state and not any questions of fact. I can't see either critique actually saying that a single factual claim made by ADL was inaccurate. And, as BilledMammal notes, the critiques acknowledge that many RSs do judge them as reliable, so deprecating would be a perverse response to the critiques. ] (]) 10:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''': This is an advocacy group so the threshold is higher than for a standard peer-reviewed secondary source. Recent coverage suggests that the sources is not only biased but may be unreliable. For example, '']'' dismantles ADL's claims that "U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in Israel" and asks --] (]) 01:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:The Nation (or, rather, the Nation's contributor) is attacking a strawman here. The caveats the data as "preliminary", explains that "incidents" are not the same as "attacks" and, as a press release, would count as a ] source that should only be used with caution anyway. The NBC reporting of the press release shows how it is transparent and thus can be easily be used carefully: {{tq|The ADL said antisemitic incidents increased 360% in the three months after Oct. 7 compared to the same period in 2022. However, the group also said that the data since Oct. 7 includes 1,317 rallies that were marked by “antisemitic rhetoric, expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel and/or anti-Zionism.” The group said such rallies held before Oct. 7 were “not necessarily included” in its earlier data.}} Ditto CNN: {{tq|However, since October 7, the ADL added a category to count rallies that they say have included “antisemitic rhetoric, expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel and/or anti-Zionism.” It’s unclear whether rallies were tracked last year. This new category has helped to account for the increase in antisemitic incidents over the last three months, with the ADL tracking 1,317 such incidents. Without those numbers, the US has seen a 176% increase in antisemitic incidents of harassment, vandalism and physical attacks compared to the same three-month period last year.}} In short, the Nation article (a) doesn't help us know if it is reliable as a source on Israel/Palestine, and (b) does not establish general unreliability. ] (]) 10:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::*The includes this note: {{tq|Clarification: This story has been updated to include additional information about how the ADL tracks incidents of antisemitism since the start of the Israel-Hamas War.}} CNN first went with the ADL's number of "361%" from the press release in the , but then had to revise the story to add three new paragraphs and the "176%" number, to reflect statistics without incidents newly categorized by ADL as antisemitic. In anything, this suggests that ADL is an unreliable source to the point that news outlets that rely on its reporting have to issue corrections after the fact. --] (]) 03:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''<del>Option 3</del><ins>Option 4</ins>''' Sources that we classify as ] have documented not only bias (which is not proscribed as per ]), but blanket inaccuracies with respect to its content on the issue of Palestine/Palestinians and the Israel/Palestine conflict. For example:
	:*'']'' reported that the ADL stated the Students for Justice in Palestine {{xt|"provided material support to Hamas"}} despite there being no evidence for that assertion and the claim being widely discredited after it was made.
	:*The '']'' writes that "the ADL has a long history of wielding its moral authority to attack Arabs, blacks, and queers".
	:*The ADL often takes opinion positions on questions adjacent to these before making wild, 180 degree turns on those same questions. For instance, it opposed the Sufi Islamic Center in New York on the grounds that it was "not right" but then declared that they, themselves, were not right for having opposed it in the first place. It is difficult to build encyclopedic content on a source with this type of editorial schizophrenia.
	:*Most importantly, the ADL's own staff, as per '']'', have criticized the accuracy and veracity of the ADL's claims on this topic. Can we call a source RS if the source itself questions whether it's reliable?
	:<del>For these reasons, I believe it should only be used, with respect to Israel/Palestine, as a source for its own editorial opinions and never for anything else, and particularly to reference ]s.</del><ins>After further consideration of ]'s comment, I'm changing my !vote to Option 4, understanding that deprecating for a single topic area presents significant editing difficulty and may be unprecedented.</ins> ] (]) 01:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC); edited 01:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::{{ec}} One by one:
	::#This appears to be a situation where we don't know the truth; some reliable sources say one thing, and others say the opposite. That isn't basis to declare a source generally unreliable.
	::#That appears to be the author disagreeing with the positions and actions taken by ADL, not declaring that they are pushing false statements. Again, this isn't a basis to declare a source generally unreliable.
	::#Organizations are allowed to reconsider past positions and statements. Indeed, the fact that they have reconsidered in this case would suggest they are a better source now than they were ten years ago - and certainly isn't a basis to declare a source generally unreliable.
	::#Those staff don't appear to be saying that ADL is pushing falsehoods, but instead that they disagree with the ADL on the definition of antisemitism. As the exact definition is a matter of debate, I don't consider disagreements in that area as a basis to declare a source generally unreliable.
	::This just continues the issue of equating sources disagreeing with the positions that ADL takes as being evidence that the ADL is pushing falsehoods. If there is evidence of ADL pushing falsehoods then please present them, but absent such evidence I see no basis to downgrade the status of this source. ] (]) 01:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Thanks for your feedback. I've responded to your critique in the discussion section. ] (]) 01:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::Regarding {{tq|the ADL stated the Students for Justice in Palestine "provided material support to Hamas"}}, I just reviewed both the Intercept article and the ADL document it is referring to. The Intercept only says the ADL suggested that SJP had provided material support, while the [https://www.adl.org/resources/letter/adl-and-brandeis-center-letter-presidents-colleges-and-universities ADL document only asks that universities investigate whether local SJP chapters had provided "material support".
	::There is no basis in that article to downgrade ADL - possibly basis to consider it biased, but nothing further than that. ] (]) 14:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::I encourage you to avail yourself of the discussion section. ] (]) 18:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' (and my objection to option 4 is only that I am opposed to deprecation on principle). After ], the ADL is the primary propagandist for Israel in the United States. All of its pronouncements regarding Israel are based on the advocacy role it has adopted and not based on an unbiased analysis of the facts. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*: {{tq|All of its pronouncements regarding Israel are based on the advocacy role it has adopted and not based on an unbiased analysis of the facts}} Bias is not a basis to consider a source generally unreliable. ] (]) 02:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:: Remove the word "unbiased", it is not the point of the sentence. The point is "not based on .. the facts". The bias is ''why'' they are unreliable. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*<s>'''Option 1'''.</s> '''Option 2'''. First, I agree with the argument by BilledMammal above and unconvinced by specific examples of allegedly unreliable reporting. As of note, none of "generally reliable" sources is 100% reliable. Secondly, there is a big wave of antisemitism related to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I think it is actually worse than many other manifestations of antisemitism. Hence, the sourced views by ADL related to the conflict should be included even if they seem to be unfair to some people. ] (]) 02:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::While I agree that there does appear to be "a big wave of antisemitism related to the Israel-Palestine conflict" and anti-Palestinian sentiment (although they presumably mostly tap pre-existing reservoirs), a problem, I guess, is not that it may seem unfair to targets, it's that it may be inaccurate and defamatory. Does this matter given that it is a POV? I'm not sure. ] (]) 04:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::The problem isn't that it is unfair, but that it is inaccurate, including with respect to the reporting of antisemitism, as detailed in The Nation's analysis. The very inability to maintain its bearing/credibility in a time of crisis is precisely what is deteriorating it as a source. ] (]) 09:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::The Nation is a partisan source in itself. The Nation's subjective opinions on definitions of antisemitism are not a justified ground to disqualify another reliable source. ] (]) 11:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::Partisan in the the sense of progressive within US politics; not partisan on the IP conflict. So that's irrelevant. Otherwise, the Nation is an actual newspaper with an actual editorial board, which places it lightyears ahead of the ADL in terms of reliability. No comparison. ] (]) 13:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::We all know that these days being progressive within US politics (as opposed to being liberal or conservative) also almost always means pro-Palestinians views. Furthermore the Natation article doesn't actually bring any example of pro-Palestinian groups that do not oppose the existence of Israel and were marked as antisemitic by the ADL. The only group mentioned there by name is SJP, '''and representatives of this organization have declared many times their opposition to the existence of Israel'''. See for example here:
	:::::https://nycsjp.wordpress.com/points-of-unity/:
	:::::"We identify the establishment of the state of israel as an ongoing project of settler-colonialism that will be stopped only through Palestinian national liberation."
	:::::https://theaggie.org/2018/07/06/students-for-justice-in-palestine-kill-and-expect-love/:
	:::::"it is an ideological fantasy to really believe that progress is possible so long as the state of Israel exists The goal of Palestinian resistance is not to establish ‘love’ with those who are responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian people; it is to completely dismantle those forces at play."
	:::::It should also be noted that the SJP “points of unity” state that "", and some SJP members and chapters explicitly refer to the Israeli occupation as having started in 1948, when Israel was founded. In July 2018, Tulane’s SJP chapter wrote that “ began seventy years ago</nowiki>]”. In May of 2018, SJP at DePaul University distributed fliers claiming that Israel has engaged in “.” ] (]) 14:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::You seem to be battling a few strawmen. The Nation was raised solely in the context of its analysis on the mislabeling of antisemitism incidents. Your opinions on progressive US politics are by-the-by, and no, you can't assume this to mean partisan in an IP setting. ] (]) 14:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::# I can definitely assume this to mean partisan in an IP setting as well. This is the result of all this progressive "intersectionality" idea.
	:::::::# This is "mislabeling" of antisemitism incidents only according to ''The Nation'' progressive intersectionality '''opinion'''. It is not so according to the mainstream view. The subtitle of the article in The Nation laments "So why does the media still treat it as a credible source?". Well guess what? '''It is precisely because the mainstream media doesn't agree that the ADL is mislabeling these groups'''. Mainstream media mostly agrees that groups like the SJP who explicitly call for the end of Israel, are indeed antisemite. Your view, and The Nation's view, that they are not antisemite, are the fringe here.
	:::::::] (]) 17:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::You don't get to label RS analysis opinion because you don't like it. No idea what you mean by 'intersectionality' here, but it sounds like gobbledygook. ] (]) 17:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::@]
	:::::::::] is a central concept in progressive thinking nowadays. I am surprised you didn't hear of it. I suggest you read the[REDACTED] article on it. As for you calling it "gobbledygook", I dont mind it personally, not being a progressive myself, but it might offend some of the progressive editors here.. ] (]) 05:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::Adding additional source here in case it gets buried, but The Nation is not the only source with this critique
	::::::::Tablet:
	::::::::] is described as a conservative Jewish publication ] (]) 18:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::So it appears that they've actually laundered the same bogus methodological gerrymandering of the data repeatedly and unashamedly over the long-term. Not great. ] (]) 20:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::For what it’s worth, other news organizations have raised similar concerns
	:::: ] (]) 17:20, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Is that the same one we already had above, or am I mixing them up? ] (]) 17:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::I don’t think so - The Nation and Tablet seem to have independently critiqued the same ADL claim, but I only saw the link to The Nation’s article ] (]) 17:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::You’re right, it was a different Tablet Link and I mixed them up, mea culpa ] (]) 17:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Potentially dumb question, but this whole discussion is covered by ], right? Or is it only partial? ] (]) 18:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::<s>Yep, the whole thing is. ] (]) 18:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)</s>
	:::::::Then I would kindly ask @] to strike their comments and refrain from making new ones. Having said that, thank you for your contributions :) ] (]) 18:15, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::That appears to be about the ADL antisemitism stats, is it not? ] (]) 18:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::As at the ADL main article, it is partial Arbpia. ] (]) 18:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::So do you also think that it requires EC? The article includes it, but it’s a partial point, and this section is I/P. Just so I don’t have someone strike their comments where they aren’t obligated to… ] (]) 18:25, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::If the material they are referring to is not AI/IPO related, I think its OK. Idk why the antisemitism stats are being raised in this section, though. ] (]) 18:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::That seems reasonable, but I would still discourage participation here, seeing how intertwined the discussions are. ] (]) 18:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::: I was wrong, only this section is. The other two RFCs aren't by themselves, though arguments based on their reliability on I/P still would be, I think. ] (]) 18:20, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Right, anything AI/IP, broadly construed, non EC editors cannot comment or !vote. ] (]) 18:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::@] I’m happy to strike my comments per request but it looks like it may actually be relevant per the above ] (]) 20:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::I’m not sure if it’s relevant, but this section is pretty clearly EC-only IMO. But let’s wait for a second opinion just in case. ] (]) 20:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Talk about ], here's the new welcome message: {{tq2|Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Until you have made at least 500 edits and have been here at least 30 days, you may not refer to any of the following topics anywhere on this website: the history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland (]), Palestine-Israel (]), or the Russo-Ukrainian War (]). Happy editing!}} ] (]) 20:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I haven’t seen this one yet. Is there a shortcut for it? ] (]) 21:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::I made that up, that was a joke :-) The real one is {{t|welcome-arbpia}}. ] (]) 21:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::I know the real one, but I liked your fake one too. Sorry for missing your joke. :)
	::::::::::::::Regarding this case, you agree with my EC-only assessment (and therefore removal), right? ] (]) 21:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::Eh, the comments by Bluetik don't really mention I/P and only mentions Israel once in passing and doesn't mention Palestine. This subsection is about I/P, but if those same comments were made in a different subsection of this same RFC, I don't think they'd be covered by ]. It's pedantic, but as the rules are written, Bluetik should not comment in this subsection because it's about I/P. However, removing their comments seems like an extreme measure (especially since they've already been replied to), moving them to a different subsection might be confusing, and striking them seems unnecessary. I don't think there's much that needs to be done besides informing Bluetik of ] in ], which has already been done. ] (]) 21:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::Makes sense, if none one is opposed, I’m happy to treat past comments as an improper IAR-Analogy in this case, particularly considering how high-quality they were for a new-ish editor. ] (]) 21:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::If it is IP related, it is. ] (]) 18:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::{{quote|Secondly, there is a big wave of antisemitism related to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I think it is actually worse than many other manifestations of antisemitism.}}
	::Both of these points are false, as numerous reliable sources have pointed out, but are exactly the narrative the ADL advocates for, and thus your vote is thoroughly unsurprising. ] (]) 01:15, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Based on the discussion, I changed it to "option 2". Yes, this possibly is a biased source, but I do not see any evidence of outright misiniformation. Speaking on the definitions they use (e.g. what they consider antisemitism), I think they are reasonable and up to them. ] (]) 18:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3'''. As documented in depth and breadth by multiple users in the discussion above and in multiple comments of this RfC, the ADL does not have the credibility necessary for us to consider their content reliable sources. There is untenable distortion by the ADL of the circumstances of the geopolitical situation in the region as well as of the behavior and activities of organizations that pertain to it such that we cannot rely on the ADL to report facts accurately. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 07:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''': Generally reliable. No evidence was shown of the ADL making false claims. See more detailed comment in the second survey about antisemitism.] (]) 07:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' for all the reasons stated above. Would be happy with Option 4 if we could get consensus.] (]) 08:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' because as discussed earlier, it is partisan pro-Israel advocacy group which has historically been engaged in espionage and defamation campaign against pro-Palestinian activists, and its broadened definition of antisemitism. Their reliability on the topic has been put into question by the Guardian and the Nation, both RS per WP. Attribution is required for any claim; and for controversial claims, probably best not to be used at all. ] (]) 09:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 4''' The ADL has consistently misidentified critics of Israel as anti-Semitic, has proven credulous to disinformation that supports Israel and has experienced negative reputational outcomes from its engagement on the topic. It should not be used as a source as it is thoroughly unreliable. ] (]) 09:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1''' per the arguments made above and in the prior discussion, the ADL is considered reliable (but biased) and worthy of citation by many RS in regards to the topic area (interpreted broadly), including but not limited to the New York Times ],], the BBC ], ], Washington Post , , and many others. They and their opinion are considered reliable by many, but particularly controversial claims should be attributed, applying the same policy applying to other civil rights groups as well as biased news sources. Common sense should be used. ''Extension based on arguments by me and others (14.04.24):'' there seems to be a few suboptimal arguments used by some which are wholly or partially unrelated to reliability, including but not limited to the use of the IHRA definition and other definition of antisemitism, internal and external debates related to issues that on Misplaced Pages are considered to be bias and not unreliability, and other issues of (non-fringe) bias; none of those actually meet the definition of unreliability. Excluding those and similar points that are closer to Idontlikeit than a general policy based argument seems prudent. That being said, a few points that could go beyond the likely frivolous were brought up, specifically
	#the change in methodology on the reporting of antisemitism: this is true, however, it was not shown that a significant amount of the claims made by the ADL are covered by no non-fringe definition of antisemitism. The likely change in methodology was poorly reported by media, an issue that was appropriately addressed. As the statement we would cite would be something along the lines of “ADL says Y”, a short clarification should be included where appropriate (via footnote or text), but no issue of long-term unreliability is apparent. The relevant discussion can be found below.
	#the inclusion of actions at protest, even if no specific person was attacked: that’s definitely a choice that can be disputed, but including (allegedly) hateful (or more accurately, assessed to be hateful) slogans when listing hateful actions even when those don’t target a specific individual is not per se inappropriate.
	#bias: bias, particularly insofar as also reflected by much of MSM, is in no way a factor for unreliability. The broad use (discussed below) is a further sign that usebyothers is undoubtedly met, despite the minor clarification required for the point above.
	#old errors: are just that, old. Most of them are historic and align with either historical narratives or media reporting at the time, but that’s not a contemporary issue and also a case where other policies (like the ones about using best available sourcing) would already prevent use even if the current status in maintained. (The question regarding the accuracy and reliability of those specific claims about errors seemed to be unclear last I checked that discussion anyway, but that’s also not of relevance.
	To summarise, a more policy-based discussion would have been significantly more productive, as many of the disagreements are wholly or partially unrelated to the reliability of the source and its use for facts. On that note, some of the votes seem to have had issue differentiating between the categories, an issue regarding which I do not envy the closer who will have to sort through them.
	] (]) 10:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:None of these sources are using the ADL as a source for facts on Israel/Palestine. Some of them are using it as a reliable source for facts about antisemitism in the US, which is the topic of the survey below. Two of them attribute to the ADL the opinion that the "river to sea" slogan is antisemitic, but they do not say this is a fact in their own voices. ] (]) 10:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::They use them as a source for facts/their credited opinions in regards to conduct related to I/P, mostly by Americans/people from western countries. According to my interpretation of many of the comments made, the exclusion of statement like 'ADL says “statement X about Israel is antisemitism”/“group Y is antisemitic”/“this is over the line of criticism of Israel and into antisemitism”' would be included by this as well. If it’s not, I’m having a hard time finding statements made about I/P that are of relevance, let alone warrant this discussion, they don’t generally comment on geopolitical details. ] (]) 11:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' based on the ADL's long-standing inaccuracy, advocacy and now increasingly unhinged misinformation on IP-related matters. The source's problems have intensified significantly under Greenblatt, but it cannot be chalked up to just this. That there have been no calls for leadership changes despite both external critique and the raising of internal grievances (over its intolerable extreme blurring of its civil rights and political advocacy) points to a general breakdown in the checks and balances within the organisation. ] (]) 10:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2'''. ''Unreliable'' normally means publishing information which is factually incorrect. I don't see a lot of evidence of this. What I do see is opinion being published as fact. When the ADL characterises something as anti-semitic, that is often more an opinion than a fact. Lots of advocacy organisations do this, and for all of them, we as editors need to strengthen our skills at identifying such opinions, and decline to bless them in wikivoice. Therefore I don't think we can say this source is ''unreliable'', but we should warn editors to wear extra insulation when handling it. ] (]) 10:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''', as per Zero because I am opposed to the application of option 4 in almost every case, except egregious hate sites and the like.{{pb}}The ADL has consistently called for laws and measures that consider as possible examples of connivance with terrorism significant movements which protest in solidarity with an occupied people, i.e. Palestinians. It does this because its agenda tends to collapse core distinctions between demonstrating on behalf of human rights (in Israel/Palestine) and anti-Semitism defined as anti-Zionist disavowels of the legitimacy of Israel as a state. In its practice, advocacy for Palestinian human rights should be subject to criminalization. (Alice Speri, ] 21 February 2024){{pb}}For its director ], opposition to Israel/anti-Zionism (by which he appears to mean criticism of Israel’s human rights record) is intrinsically ‘antisemitic’. His position was so extreme that even ADL staff protested at the equation of critics of Israel with those white supremicists groups which the ADL has distinguished itself in exposing. (Jonathan Guyer, Tom Perkins, ] 5 January 2024).{{pb}}(Justin) Sadowsky (of the ]), who is Jewish, characterizes some of ADL’s actions as part of a pattern of deliberate intimidation to make it “very difficult for Palestinians to talk in a forthright way about what’s going on”, (Wilfred Chan ] 1 November 2023). And they do distort information, because their lists of antisemitic incidents do not discriminate between normal protests and serious incidents of antisemitic behaviour. Spitting on Christian priests in Jerusalem is commonplace and the ADL has protested the practice regularly, but, if that is noteworthy for them, the same cannot be said for protesting extreme human rights violations by Israel against Palestinians, which are endemic and yet, it appears, not noteworthy.{{pb}}] (]) 12:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:The ADL doesn't mark mere criticism of Israel an antisemitism. It only marks calling for the destruction of Israel and denying its right to exist as antisemitism. See https://www.adl.org/about/adl-and-israel/anti-israel-and-anti-zionist-campaigns. And this is a mainstream view. ] (]) 13:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::So you take the ADL at its word.Noted.] (]) 13:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Can you prove otherwise? ] (]) 13:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::I don't need to. I gave some sources challenging the ADL's claims, and you merely cited the ADL "protesting too much" without troubling yourself to examine those sources' claims and documentation. I am not going to participate in another poinjtless thread. I'll just note that
	::::<blockquote> While criticism of Israeli policies and actions is part of that discourse, certain forms of anti-Israel rhetoric and activism delegitimize Israel and its existence, and '''are antisemitic when they vilify and negate Zionism''' – the movement for Jewish self-determination and statehood </blockquote>
	::::Well, all ideologies - and Zionism is an ideological construction based on ethnic exclusiveness - are closed systems of thought that are by self-definition and practice, hostile to the sort of thinking fundamental to ], a principle theorized by ] (Jewish-French). An anti-Zionist could equally define, on solid grounds, Zionism as 'the movement for the denial of Palestinian self-determination' as the tacit but, in historical practice, acknowledged corollary of that definition of Zionism, since Zionism asserted its claim when Palestine was 95% Arab, noting that half of the world's Jewish population is thriving elsewhere regardless, and does not appear to think that an ethnic state is its default homeland.] (]) 13:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::@]
	:::::As you well know, when Zionism was formed 130 years ago there was actually no Palestinian national identity to speak of. Regardless of that Zionism doesn't necessarily contradicts the self-determination of the Palestinian nation. For this there is the idea of a two state solution. As for those hard right-wing Zionists who are opposed to the two states idea in principle, and deny that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination, I have absolutely no objection to calling them "anti-Palestinian". So why do you object to using the word "anti-Jewish" or "antisemite" to describe the anti-Zionists who are opposed to the two state idea in principle, and deny that the Jews have a right to self-determination? Why the double standards? ] (]) 15:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Please don't make thoughtless comments like that. If there was no Palestinian identity in 1900, there was also no Zionist identity, since less than 1% adhered around that time. It's like saying the white colonisation of Australia, declaring the land terra nullius, was fine, even though several hundred cultures were erased, and the entire population of Tasmania exterminated, because the aboriginals had no identity unlike the invaders who were 'European'.] (]) 16:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::This is veering pretty close to ]. Your personal opinion regarding the historicity of the Palestinian national identity is noted. It is also entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand. ] (]) 16:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Since this is WP:NOFORUM I'll send you a private comment on this ] (]) 19:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::{{quote|The ADL doesn't mark mere criticism of Israel an antisemitism. It only marks calling for the destruction of Israel and denying its right to exist as antisemitism.}}
	::This is a distinction without a difference for those, such as the ADL, who feel every criticism of Israel is an assault on its existence.
	::But more importantly, there is nothing inherently antisemitic about wanting to abolish a state. Mandela wished to abolish the Boer state in South Africa, but not because of anti-Boer prejudice. Reagan wished to abolish the Soviet Union—did he hate Russians? Numerous politicians in Washington no doubt wish to dismantle China—are they Sinophobes? ] (]) 01:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::It really isn’t identical, for example (afaik), the ADL generally doesn’t mark criticism of specific politicians as antisemitic. You can argue about where the line between antizionism and antisemitism and it is legitimate to support versions like the ] over the IHRA. However, even that version would likely show a non-insignificant increase in antisemitism.
	:::On the rest of the discussion, we are going off-topic, we are not here to argue the IHRA as a whole, only if it’s fringe enough to have impact on reliability. ] (]) 07:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:{{ping|Nishidani}} Going through those sources I'm seeing allegations that ADL is biased, but not that it is unreliable - that it is producing misinformation. If I am incorrect, can you quote from those articles where they allege that the ADL has promoted falsehoods? ] (]) 14:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::The ADL is well aware that the methods it uses have been criticized as flawed, yet it refuses to change them to conform with standard statistical sampling methods. That means that it concocts misinformation.
	::Back in the ], the ADL immediately came forth with alarmist figures, whose methodology a serious analyst with competence in statistics and hate crimes duly questioned /pulled apart. See Mari Cohen, ] 27 May 2021.
	::So aware of, but not responsive to, the technical criticism of its methods, now it has issued its latest analysis <blockquote> The ADL released its annual antisemitism report on Wednesday, announcing that there were a stunning 3,283 such incidents in 2023. That’s a 361 percent increase compared to the previous year, according to the organization, which noted '''the “American Jewish community is facing a threat level that’s now unprecedented in modern history.” . . . The ADL report was widely covered by mainstream outlets'''.</blockquote>
	::<blockquote>the ADL acknowledged in a statement to the Forward that it '''significantly broadened its definition of antisemitic incidents following the Oct. 7 Hamas attack to include rallies that feature “anti-Zionist chants and slogans,” events that appear to account for around 1,317 of the total count.''' Arno Rosenfeld, ] 10 January 2024.</blockquote>
	::<blockquote>The ADL released its annual antisemitism report on Wednesday, announcing that there were a stunning 3,283 such incidents in 2023. That’s a 361 percent increase compared to the previous year, according to the organization, . . . . . The ADL report was widely covered by mainstream outlets like CNN, NBC, and Axios, which simply took the organization’s word for the gigantic increase without actually checking the data behind the claim. Not all media outlets fumbled the ball, however. . . The ADL admits in its own press release that it includes pro-Palestine rallies in its list of antisemitic incidents, '''even if these featured no overt hostility toward Jewish people. Any anti-Israel or anti-Zionist chants are enough for the ADL’s new definition of antisemitism.'''Adrienne Mahsa Varkiani, ] 10 January 2024.</blockquote>
	::That new statistic with its deplorable attempt to press a panic button to get everyone in the American-Jewish community feeling as though they were under mortal siege is rubbish, and exposed as such. Worse, as noted, the ADL's ballsed up statistics were taken and repeated by major mainstream outlets without doing any checking. That's why it is unreliable, certainly under the present direction. ] (]) 16:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::This appears to be based on a disagreement about the definition of antisemitism; the narrower definition preferred by you and some sources, and the wider definition preferred by the ADL and other sources, as well as several nations and supranational entities.
	:::For example, your Jewish Currents source gives "Zionism is racism. Abolish Israel" as an example of a statement that the ADL considers antisemitic, but the author of the article considers to be "more accurately described as anti-Zionist". In this case, ADL's position aligns with the ], specifically "Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."
	:::You can disagree with this position, but is is not a fringe position and there is no basis to consider ADL unreliable because of it. ] (]) 16:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::The ] is the result of political attempts to define the topic, and then pressure to have its provisions enacted in law. As framed, it certainly got a toe-hold among politicians, but has veryt very little credibility as a definition in the scholarship. I was taking a person to the Exhibition Buildings Museum some months ago, and came across a pro-ceasefire demonstration. I stopped for a chat, and a donation, and the atmosphere was pleasant. The day afterwards, a young women wrote to the Age and said that as a Jewish person, she felt quite 'uncomfortable' even though she too endorsed a ceasefire. Uncomfortable because it was sidedly 'pro-Palestinian' (i.e. the major victim). Many reports of campus 'harassment' examined turn out to be interviews with Jews who feel 'uncomfortable' (of course there are the usual idiots who shout injurious remarks) in these contexts. Much of this enters the register as 'antisemitic' by organizations like the ADL who fail to carefully assess reports. When I see the word 'uncomfortable', I think that kind of discomfort, if that was all, would be embraced by 2 million Gazans as infinitely preferable to what they must endure, now and for the rest of their prospective lives.] (]) 17:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::{{tq|"the ADL acknowledged in a statement to the Forward that it significantly broadened its definition of antisemitic incidents following the Oct. 7"}} – there are a few ways to describe this, but "consistent statistical methodology" and "reliable source" are not among them. ] (]) 16:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::The full quote from Forward is that {{tq|the ADL acknowledged in a statement to the Forward that it significantly broadened its definition of antisemitic incidents following the Oct. 7 Hamas attack to include rallies that feature "anti-Zionist chants and slogans"}}, but that conflicts with other sources such as the Jewish Currents one that told us in 2021 that their definition of antisemitic incidents had {{tq|long considered}} "anti-Zionist chants and slogans" to be antisemitic.
	:::::It also conflicts with publications from ADL, such as , which said {{tq|Anti-Zionism is antisemitic, in intent or effect, as it invokes anti-Jewish tropes; is used to disenfranchise, demonize, disparage, or punish all Jews and/or those who feel a connection to Israel; exploits Jewish trauma by invoking the Holocaust in order to position Jews as akin to Nazis; or renders Jews less worthy of nationhood and self-determination than other peoples.}}
	:::::Further, even if we assume that Jewish Currents and the ADL website is wrong and Forward is right, organizations are allowed to update the definitions they use, and there is no basis to consider them unreliable because they do so. ] (]) 16:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::A broadening of a definition (assuming it is apparent and communicated, which it is here), is not per se problematic, and definitely isn’t if it’s merely used to include IHRA. Based on my reading, it seems like the changes started to include some broadening, per the Forward source:''' Aryeh Tuchman, director of ADL’s Center on Extremism, which oversees the periodic tallies,said in an interview two years ago that his team generally only included incidents that had a clear victim — as opposed to general expressions of hostility toward Jews — and that there was a high bar for including criticism of Israel. ''' Inclusion is only an issue if it is inaccurate, an assuming they are generally following IHRA (and accepting the common-sense fact that people can be discriminatory against their own ethnic, religious or other group), neither of which seems to be disproven by the article(s), who are instead critical of such choices, I see no indication that it is anything beyond biased.
	:::::I have a specific concern regarding the republic article, as it appears that the Forward article is summarised in a misleading way: the forward article seems to describe inclusion of some “anti-Zionist“ incidents, while the republic implies all. Is that just me? ] (]) 16:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Are you missing that after broadening its definition, the ADL then claimed there was a massive rise in antisemitic incidents, right after it significantly broadened its definition of "antisemitic incidents"? ] (]) 17:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Some others have said that the majority of the changes pre-date the conflict, and many of the new changes are covered by IHRA. As long as they publicly admit the change (which they did), I don’t see the problem. ] (]) 18:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::Publicly admitted a dishonesty does not make it less dishonest, it just makes it easier to prove that there was dishonesty. It is perverse to use an effect admission of guilt as evidence of innocence, so to speak. ] (]) 01:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Publicly communicating a changing methodology is exactly the way you change methodology appropriately. It’s possible that they failed at that (which still would be a conduct and not a reliability issue, comparable to the nepotism hire topic on the nytimes discussion) ] (]) 07:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::What is dishonest about publicly changing methodology? Is it dishonesty to start failing students who score below 70% and then saying more students have failed, after telling students scores below 70% would not pass? ] (]) 03:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::{{quote|In this case, ADL's position aligns with the Working definition of antisemitism,}}
	::::Yes, because, as the article itself points out:
	::::{{quote|Accompanying the working definition, but of disputed status, are 11 illustrative examples whose purpose is described as guiding the IHRA (International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance) in its work, seven of which relate to criticism of the Israeli government. As such, pro-Israeli organizations have been advocates for the worldwide legal adoption of the definition.}}
	::::The definition has nothing even remotely resembling or approaching scholarly consensus. It is a definition promoted by Zionist organizations; of course they agree with each other, what does that prove? ] (]) 01:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::That’s partially true, but not relevant: there is no other definition with scholarly consensus either, if they used Jerusalem or 3D, we would have the exact same problem. I personally prefer some other for reasons of practicality, but IHRA is the one most adopted by governments, NGOs (and companies). ] (]) 07:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::It's not just blatantly dodgy statistical malfeasance and misrepresention (and even arguably disinformation); it's dangerous fear-mongering. ] (]) 16:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' As of late, the ADL has actively been not only producing more and more highly biased material in this subject area, but also misinformation as noted by others above and in the previous discussion. ]]<sup>]</sup> 14:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 4''' the simple fact is that ADL is an aggressively pro-Israel organization which considers even questioning the legitimacy of Israel (a very young state founded under circumstances that are '']'') makes it inherently biased. I’m not trying to wade into the “let’s use Misplaced Pages as a proxy to argue about Israel/Palestine” fight but the rough equivalent would be an Afrikaner advocacy group saying questioning the legitimacy of European colonization in South Africa is racist. ] (]) 16:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:@] Even if your claims about Israel were right they are not relevant at all to the question of reliability of the ADL. But since you raised this, I must correct you. Your claims are false. Israel is not a very young state. In fact ]. And there is nothing dubious in the circumstances of its birth compared to the birth of other states. ] (]) 15:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::I mean Israel had not been continuously inhabited by Jews for thousands of years, unlike say China which has always been inhabited by Chinese people. And “nothing dubious” about ethnic cleansing? I’m not saying it’s worse than other states founded on that premise, but if you think there’s nothing wrong with the Nakba I’m seriously questioning your minimum standard of “dubious”. ] (]) 16:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 4''' - having read much of the extensive discussion and evidence presented above it is clear the ADL cannot be considered a reliable source. The ADL has been publishing and producing blatant misinformation and disinformation regarding the current conflict, exaggerating increases in anti-semitism in the United States by sneaky and cynical misrepresentation of statistics and openly equating literally any criticism of the Israeli government, politicians and military with anti-semitism. By falsely equating criticism of the Israeli government with anti-semitism, ADL is effectively attempting to replicate a ]. This also serves to trivialise genuine anti-semitism, just as who they considered sympathetic to their cause. I don't need to re-state the countless examples of flagrant dishonesty from the ADL shown above, but it is fairly clear that we cannot in good faith trust this source. Perhaps the most damming evidence against the ADL is from ''The Guardian'' earlier this year in which multiple respected staff members of the ADL express serious concerns about the falsehoods coming from within the organisation, and declaring these falsehoods are "intellectually dishonest and damaging to our reputation as experts in extremism." If even their own staff no longer consider them honest, how can anyone? ] (]) 16:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:The Guardian article is about an internal disagreement over the definition of antisemitism; ADL says that it includes anti-zionism, in line with the ] which, while controversial, is also widely accepted, while some employees strongly disagree. At no point does that article say that {{tq|staff members of the ADL express serious concerns about the falsehoods coming from within the organisation}} - the closest the article comes is a quote where an employee expresses concerns about a "false equivalency" between antisemitism and anti-zionism, but this is just part of the dispute over the definition of antisemitism. If I've missed something, then please provide quotes from the article showing it - but from what I can see your claims about that article don't match it, and the article itself doesn't supporting removing ADL's "generally reliable" status, let alone downgrading it to deprecated. ] (]) 17:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::I disagree with your characterisation of what the Guardian article is about. The relevant section "Some members of ADL’s staff were outraged by the dissonance between Greenblatt’s comments and the organization’s own research, as evidenced by internal messages viewed by the Guardian. "There is no comparison between white supremacists and insurrectionists and those who espouse anti-Israel rhetoric, and to suggest otherwise is both intellectually dishonest and damaging to our reputation as experts in extremism," a senior manager at ADL’s Center on Extremism wrote in a Slack channel to over 550 colleagues. Others chimed in, agreeing. "The aforementioned false equivalencies and the both-sides-ism are incompatible with the data I have seen," a longtime extremism researcher said. "he stated concerns about reputational repercussions and societal impacts have already proved to be prescient." ] (]) 17:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::The Guardian article in reporting on the ADL CEO praising Elon Musk just after Musk had endorsed a vicious anti-semitic conspiracy theory on Twitter/X, which prompted resignations from the ADL in protest. So ignoring genuine disgusting anti-semitism but going after Jews for Peace as an anti-semitic hate group because they want an end to the war in Gaza. Hugely trustworthy source... ] (]) 17:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::{{quote|ADL says that it includes anti-zionism, in line with the working definition of antisemitism which, while controversial, is also widely accepted}}
	*::You keep offering up this definition as if it proves anything other than that the ADL agrees with other Zionists. ] (]) 01:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::It proves that it isn’t fringe, which is the relevant factor here. We can’t and shouldn’t esclude sources because they are zionists. ] (]) 07:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' - it's a pro-Israeli lobbying group, not scholarship or journalism, and equates criticism of Israel or anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Citespam:
	** ], , 2020: a "pro-Israel US group ... A Jewish organization whose declared mission includes fighting antisemitism, combating hate, and standing up for Israel"
	** , ] 2020: "Israeli officials, as well as Israel advocacy organizations internationally, have a long history of charging Palestinians and their allies, as well as Israel’s critics and human-rights campaigners, with anti-Semitism" and gives ADL as an example of such an organization (noting ADL in 2009 opposed ] winning a Nobel because he was critical of Israel)
	** , ] 2023: "pro-Israel organization"
	** ADL's lobbying spending increased ~4x in recent years
	** Equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism:
	** More citespam of reports of criticism of ADL as too pro-Israel and/or willing to equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism: ; ; and ; , , and ; ; ; ; ; (describing ADL as "one of the most active Zionist organisations in the US") and ("Anti-Defamation League beclowns itself, again")
	** I do not see evidence that it has a reputation for reliability, e.g. for fact checking and accuracy; what I see is that it has a reputation for being a pro-Israel advocacy org and lobbying group; the lobbying in particular is a red flag: no lobbying group is an RS, in my opinion, categorically
	:As such, it is not an RS for this topic, generally unreliable. ] (]) 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::@] Actually there is at least one other advocacy and lobbying group in the RS list ] : ]. ] (]) 05:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::That's a US civil rights group working against racism in the US, for the US; it's an advocacy group, not a lobby group, because advocating for civil rights isn't lobbying on behalf of a third party. The ADL very explicitly lobbies on behalf of Israeli (foreign) interests. ] (]) 06:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::@] Actually ] has a lobby arm as well - The SPLC ACTION FUND. They admit it themselves. See here for example - https://www.splcactionfund.org/news/2023/03/01/splc-action-fund-pursues-systemic-change-congress. '''And the question if certain group works for Americans behalf or other people's behalf has absolutely zero relevance to the question of its reliability'''. This in clearly a WP:NOTFORM. Drop that line of argument. ] (]) 06:50, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Don't be absurd. Of course being a lobby group has a bearing on reliability. A lobby group is paid to influence: it's perhaps the clearest conflict of interest. ] (]) 07:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::You are misrepresenting what I said. '''I didn't say that being a lobby group doesn't matter. I said it doesn't matter who you are lobbying for.''' And the ] is also a lobby group as I have shown. Get into the link I posted. They freely admit it. ] (]) 07:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::I was referring to {{tq|"the question if certain group works for Americans behalf or other people's behalf"}} – regardless of the advocacy/lobbying question, there is a clear gap between a group working on behalf of US citizens and residents and the foreign influence of a group working in the interest of another country/its dependents. ] (]) 07:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::No. Drop that line. This may be of importance as an argument inside some internal American political argument, but it has absolutely no bearing on the question of reliability in wikipedia. ] (]) 08:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::This is an RFC about reliability on the IP conflict and we are talking about a literal lobby group that is open about its (paid) role to influence public opinion about the topic. That's a conflict of interest; the opposite of independent. ] (]) 09:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::# Yes. But I'm not talking specifically about the IP necessarily. I'm talking about reliability in the relevant fields for the SPLC. The SPLC is a lobby group in whatever fields they lobby (which might BTW contain also IP incidentally, but that requires further research), and therefore according to your logic should be declared unreliable in those fields.
	::::::::::# I don't understand tour comment about the payments to ADL. Who do you think is paying the ADL and how is this relevant here?
	::::::::::] (]) 10:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::SPLC's reputation is not great either: ] (]) 07:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::@] I definitely agree with that. So will you support reducing its reliability if and when such an RfC will be submitted? ] (]) 07:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::Fair enough. There are signs that it is a fairly parallel case to the ADL as a group that once did some good work, but which has now clearly lost its way. ] (]) 07:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Kudos for the consistency. I have limited time to spend on wikipedia, and submitting an RfC on the ] is not in the top list of my projects. But maybe it will happen one day... ] (]) 07:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::That's my view of it, too, that ADL and SPLC are parallel cases. They're demonstrations that power always corrupts. They are victims of their own success: having gained the stature of authoritative neutral arbiters, it's clearly been too tempting for some to avoid using that stature for political gain, and once they sacrifice their neutrality, their reputation soon follows. ] (]) 19:18, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::I don't think that the ADL ever presented itself as "neutral". Neutral between whom? It was definitely never neutral between antisemites and Jews or between Israel and those who wish to delete it.
	::::::I also don't know if I agree with the way you present the analogy between the ADL and the SPLC, but I don't know enough about the SPLC. Maybe you can bring the 3 worst things done by the ADL and the 3 worst things done by the SPLC (according to your view) and we can compare them? ] (]) 19:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::SPLC is currently green on the RSP list, so building an argument for its unreliability should really happen in a different thread. If we compare ADL to SPLC and they come out the same or ADL comes out better, by current consensus that would make ADL green; if SPLC comes out better that wouldn't help judge if ADL should be green, yellow or red. ] (]) 12:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' The sources clearly demonstrate a severe bias in matters AI/IP, inclusive of weaponizing charges of antisemitism for political purposes in this area. ] (]) 17:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' - lobby organization with zero expertise in the topic, the ADL has expertise in some topics but this is not one of them. Id add the following source to those showing its unreliability on the topic: {{cite book | last=Finkelstein | first=Norman G. | title=Beyond Chutzpah | publisher=University of California Press | date=2008-06-02 | isbn=978-0-520-24989-9|page=xiii|quote=Among other propagandistic claims in the ADL “resource for journalists” one might mention these: the “Arab forces were significantly larger” than Israel’s during the 1948 war (p. 2); “by May 1967, Israel believed an Arab attack was imminent” (p. 6); it was “understood by the drafters of the resolution” that “Israel may withdraw from areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip consistent with its security needs, but not from all the territories” (p. 9); “Israel has shown the greatest possible restraint and makes a determined effort to limit Palestinian casualties” (p. 27); “Most Palestinian casualties are individuals who are directly engaged in anti-Israel violence and terrorism” (p. 27); “Settlements . . . do not violate international law” (p. 31); and “Neither international law nor international statute calls for a Palestinian ‘right of return’ to Israel” (p. 32). These assertions have been wholly refuted both by Ben-Ami and by the mainstream scholarship cited in this volume.}} It is not a scholarly organization, it has no expertise on the topics of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, Zionism, anti-Zionism, history of the Middle East. It is purely, in this realm, a pressure organization that uses misinformation and disinformation to push a false narrative. ''']''' - 18:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Oo, err ... those last two in particular are pretty dodgy: objectively false statements about international law. ] (]) 18:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::The {{xt|Most Palestinian casualties are individuals who are directly engaged in anti-Israel violence and terrorism}} has never been true either. Literally never. ''']''' - 19:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:You cannot use a controversial source like NF to disqualify other sources. Other RS dispute his factual claims here. For example regarding NF claim that this sentence from ADL "In May 1967, events in the region led Israel to expect that an Arab attack was imminent" is false see (second page): "In 1967 Israel preempted what many of the state’s decisionmakers believed was an imminent Arab attack". I can go on with regard to all the other claims NF makes here, but then someone would probably say that is WP:NOFORUM, so I'll stop here. ] (]) 19:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::To reduce ''Beyond Chutzpah'' to Finkelstein and whatever personal reputation he may have is to lose sight of the context of publication. This is not some ] blog post that Finkelstein made; it's a monograph published with a university press, and publishers have systems and processes of review. Had Finkelstein submitted as a manuscript an unsupportable screed without grounding in the scholarly conversation, the University of California Press wouldn't have published it. That they did publish it indicates we should not dismiss out of hand the book and what it reports. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 19:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::This doesn't change the fact that other RS dispute his claim, and support the ADL claim on this point. Disputes between RS about facts (and needless to say opinions) are extremely common. Why should we trust in this case NF more than the RAND corporation? ] (]) 19:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Is that a serious question? A university press versus a think tank? ] (]) 21:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::Yeah, thats just silly. A work of scholarship published by the University of California Press is ], which is our highest tier of reliability. You calling it "controversial" is cute but not important. ''']''' - 20:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Finkelstein (a controversial source, as we can see from the thread up the talk page) is disputing a 2006 ADL publication called "Israel & The Middle East: The Facts", which can be found on scrbd but not on the ADL website, but I don't have access to scrbd or the Finkelstein book, so hard to judge this. Some of the issues NF contends are issues of interpretation (e.g. the balance of forces in 1948 or what Israel believed in May 1967) whereas there are some factual claims (e.g. that most casualties were not civilians) that indeed appear to be false, but I'd need to see the wording of the original before being certain. ] (]) 14:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' - Whether we consider the ADL reliable for verifying facts re the I/P conflict (or not), they have a reputation of being at the forefront of fighting antisemitism… and THAT is enough for us to say that their attributed ''opinions'' are absolutely DUE and should be mentioned. ] (]) 19:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Don’t think that’s true at all, when those opinions are treated as noteworthy by third party sources then sure, but including their opinions sourced to their own publications? Hard pass. ''']''' - 19:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*There is a splendid model of exemplary methodology, the very impressive paper by L. Daniel Staetsky, ] September 2017, which came out at the tailend of a year of furious claims about the Labour Party and Corbyn's antisemitism problem (which led, with newspaper hysteria, 87% of the Jewish community according to one poll, stating that they would be afraid /consider moving to Israel, if Labour won - which the ADL's recent panicking of American Jews mirrors). Editors should familiarize themselves with Staetsky's sober analysis (it sets a scholarly benchmark for these things), and compare the way the ADL handles the issues. The latter looks shabby by comparison. No one would dissent I presume from the the ADL remains an important indeed indispensable resource for hate crimes generally, but their record on the I/P issue is, unfortunately, one of polemical defensiveness re Israel, and almost total silence about human rights abuses, which NGOs of global standing routinely cover, in book length studies every other year. That silence, and the way it otherwise blurs important distinctions to make out the Palestinian cause is strongly contaminated by antisemitism, undermines its credibility there. Put it this way, it has, certainly recently, discredited itself. Antisemitism is widely studied, clinically, by many distinct agencies and numerous scholarly works. It is not as if, were the ADL to shut down, our knowledge of antisemitism would suddenly dry up. It is, after all, such an obviously outrageous phenomenon that it scarcely escapes even the dullest observer.] (]) 20:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' when it comes to the I/P conflict. Obviously it is a highly ] source on that and could never be used on the topic without attribution, but that alone wouldn't make it unreliable. The real problem is that recent coverage has made it clear that their biases tainted their factual reporting to the point where it has harmed their reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; see eg. - they can still be cited via a third party, but we should avoid citing them directly on this. While it is true that they aren't generally described as publishing deliberate lies (which is why I'm for "generally unreliable" rather than deprecation), that alone isn't sufficient to make something a ]. I don't think they should be cited as a primary source for opinion on this topic, either (outside of situations where it itself is the topic of discussion.) Most sources today treat them as an advocacy organization when it comes to Israel, and I do not feel that advocacy orgs, think-tanks, or other lobbying organizations that lack a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy should be used even for opinions; there is simply nothing notable or meaningful about a "hired gun" churning out the perspective it is being paid to churn out. --] (]) 20:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 4''' for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict per the highly compelling arguments of ] and ]. ] (]) 00:06, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' with regards to Israel/Palestine. There are perhaps situations where its comments have some relevance due to its direct involvement, but hard to think of them.] (]) 06:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. I don't consider pro-Israel bias alone to make ADL unreliable, but the above mentioned examples of false claims do. ] (]) 09:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2'''/3. I find this particular question bizarre. ADL has absolutely no expertise on Israel-Palestine itself, and I cannot imagine why anybody would cite it in that topic area. Almost none of the comments above actually relate to ADL's claims about I/P but rather to its claims about antisemitism, the topic of the survey below. Although I cannot imagine why anyone would want to cite ADL on I/P, <s>none</s> only one of the comments above gives an example of ADL making false claims about the topic, and therefore "generally unreliable" would seem excessive. In summary: no reason to doubt reliability for facts about I/P but no reason to cite it on this topic. ] (]) 10:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC) <small>] (]) 14:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)</s> Update 2: After reviewing our actual use of the source in this topic area, I am leaning back to option 2. ] (]) 12:27, 15 April 2024 (UTC)]</small>
	*:Believe I posted false claims about the conflict unrelated to antisemitism. ''']''' - 11:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::Not false. At most controversial. ] (]) 11:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::The claim that most Palestinians killed were involved in violence against Israel is false. The claim that settlements are not illegal is false. But kudos for modifying your earlier comment here. ''']''' - 12:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::where and when did the ADL make such claims? ] (]) 12:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::It’s in the citation I offered above. ''']''' - 13:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::The citation you offered is from a (called "Israel and the Middle East: A Resource for Journalists"). But this ADL document is no longer available as far as I could check. Maybe you can find it? Apparently it was some booklet or PDF file or webpage that nobody bothered to archive. So you see, there are serious multiple problems with your argument that this evidence can serve to prove that the ADL is not reliable on factual claims:
	*::::::1. It is about claims of the ADL that were allegedly made 19 years ago. How is it relevant today?? '''If you had to go 19 years ago to find factual errors of the ADL, then it seems to me that they are pretty reliable on the factual side.'''
	*::::::2. Furthermore, it seems that these alleged quotes cannot be checked in their context, '''and that matters a lot'''. For example the claim that most Palestinians killed were involved in violence against Israel, might be correct in some context such as if talking about some particular war or operation, where indeed this was the case. And the quote about the settlements says "Settlements . . . do not violate international law". There is an ellipsis in the middle, and we have no idea what text was omitted. Maybe it said that there are some International Law scholars that claim that the settlements don't violate international law. If that's the case then the claim is actually correct, even if nowadays these scholars are in a small minority. But we don't know what the context was in both cases, because we don't have the primary source.
	*::::::3. Furthermore, it seems that these alleged quotes cannot be checked and verified against the primary source, which appears to have been lost. This point is particularly relevant because NF the author of this book is (beyond dispute) extremely biased against Israel, and also was found to make at least some egregious errors in his work, as had been pointed in the discussion about him above. While these allegations may not be enough to disqualify him as a reliable source in wikipedia, they definitely undermine using him as a source to disqualify other sources, when his claims cannot be verified by other sources. ] (]) 14:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::It's actually a rather good demonstration that the ADL has been unreliable for the last two decades. ] (]) 15:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::This will only be true if you can you show factual errors of the ADL regarding IP from the last say 5 years, rather than from 19 years ago (Assuming those things from 19 years ago are indeed incorrect. See points 2 & 3) ] (]) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::Uh huh, since NF's books appear to rather more reliable than the ADL on the face of it. ] (]) 16:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::I missed this example nableezy. That does appear to be a case of some false claims of fact, though I can't actually see what the 2006 publication was as it doesn't seem to be online at all. ] (]) 14:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I’m sure I can find others, but there’s an eclipse out here so I’m spending the day outside and then in the car driving home for god knows how many hours. Will go back for more sources later. ''']''' - 18:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::I've been looking through . I found very few instances of it's use about I/P. I found two in the first couple of pages of hits. In our article ] we currently cite (now no longer on the ADL website) for a claim about Jerusalem's significance to Jews. This is a bad use of ADL, as the "factsheet" is basically a list of talking points for pro-Israel advocates. Options 2, 3 or 4 would enable us avoid this sort of use. In the article ], we use as the source for a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv. This is a good example of a straightforward fact and the ADL reporting it reliably. Option 2 would enable us to continue using it unproblematically in this way, while option 3 would preclude this.
	*::::So I think option 2 is the better choice than option 3. ] (]) 12:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1: Generally Reliable'''. A reliable source is not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective, according to ]. Many NGOs, which are considered reliable, illustrate this point. ADL is an opinionated source that is openly pro-Israeli, for example, they openly say that "ADL works to support a secure Jewish and democratic state of Israel, living in peace and security with its neighbors" and "ADL speaks out when anti-Israel rhetoric or activism engages in distortions or delegitimizes Israel, crosses into antisemitism when it demonizes or negates Zionism, and uses anti-Jewish assertions and tropes". To be considered a reliable source, an organization is required to have good reputation for fact checking. When using *any* source, it's crucial to distinguish between opinion pieces and research, and to properly attribute opinions. Regarding ADL, their reputation for fact-checking in research papers has been excellent for over a century; thus, relying on them for facts presents no issue. Editors should exercise normal consideration of controversial topics and consider using attribution where necessary. For example, claiming something is or is not a "hate symbol" is more a matter of opinion than fact, serving as an example of something that should be attributed if disputed - but this is normal for every reliable source - that's why we use the word "generally". ] (]) 05:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:So this part: {{tq|"ADL speaks out when anti-Israel rhetoric or activism when it negates Zionism}} is the real problem – because this is a mission to curtail free speech. You can't really be civil rights group '''AND''' be such an openly politically biased entity that you actively go after individuals and groups for simply opposing your chosen political ideology. That's more than a little unhinged – more so even than the rest of its mission as a US (not Israeli) NGO that isn't registered as a foreign agent (FARA). And editors have pointed out numerous issues with the ADL's presentation of facts; there's a lot of not listening here. ] (]) 07:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::Iskandar323, like you I disagree with how the ADL understands anti-Zionism but can you show me the policy that says a source has to be committed to unlimited free speech before we consider it reliable? The question isn't whether it's really a civil rights group or not; it's whether it's reliable for facts. ] (]) 13:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Let's put it this way: I can't imagine another source presented as an RS with a stated mission to oppose those that reject its political position. All media has bias, but stating it is your mission to actively oppose certain politics is the hallmark of a determinedly agenda-driven lobby group, not a truth-oriented organisation. Most RS media with have a mission statement about a commitment to truth and the like. Most RS rights groups will have a mission statement about a commitment to their rights specialty regardless of politics. ] (]) 18:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::] ] (]) 19:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::@] @] Actually I'm not impressed at all by "a mission statement about a commitment to truth". This doesn't matter at all. ] also claimed to be committed to truth, so much that its name literally means "truth" in Russian. Yet we know that every second word in that paper was false.
	*::::The proof of the pudding is in the eating. And the only way to asses reliability of a source is by looking at its actual record of factual reporting. This can be done in 2 ways:
	*::::1. We do a systematic review and asses the rate of the sources factual errors. No source has 0 errors, but if the rate of errors is significantly higher than acceptable for RS then the source is unreliable. No such systematic review was presented against the ADL in this case. On the day of the eclipse @] have promised such evidence, but so far he didn't supply it.
	*::::2. Since doing a systematic review requires a lot of work sometimes we can find a shortcut by ]. If indisputably highly reliable sources use the source under investigation we can assume that they had already systematically checked it "for us". I and others have presented sufficient examples of ] in the sections '''Reliable sources using ADL''' and '''Scholarly citations of ADL publications since 2020 from JSTOR''' below. ] (]) 09:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::Please both stop pinging me and stop bludgeoning this discussion. Everybody knows what you think now, you can give it a rest and let the community decide. Sorry, but I have things in the real world that are more important to me than this discussion, I’ll get to it when I get to it. ''']''' - 12:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' - as an advocacy group, it must be held to higher standards than other sources (per K.e.coffman). The evidence presented by nableezy, Levivich and Aquillion show that the ADL is publishing questionable content, including on Palestine, and that other sources are simply not treating them as scholarly. ''']] (])''' 12:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2'''. I've never used it for anything related to the IP conflict as there are much better sources covering it. However no actual falsehoods have been presented, so no reason to downgrade it. The u:Brusquedandelion's examples are about people who disagree with their definition of antisemitism. ]<sub>]</sub> 13:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:: To be clear, here I'm !voting on using ADL for facts and opinions about the IP conflict itself. There are varieties of antisemitism that involve Israel (such as applying double standards to it), this belongs to the next section. ]<sub>]</sub> 21:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' the evidence presented so far by Levivich and others speaks for itself. ] (]) 15:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' despite the efforts to paint it as "questionable" above, I don't find anything compelling to list it as anything but a reliable source. Based on my own quick review of coverage, it appears that most media treat the ADF's reports as credible. ] (]) 19:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1 or 2''' Reliable sources don't appear to question their reliability, and the evidence presented contesting their reliability isn't convincing. Obviously they're not a neutral party on the matter, but sources don't have to be - and they're generally regarded as authoritative. '''] ]''' 12:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:I have already linked to several reliable sources doing exactly that: question their reliability. ] (]) 01:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' It is frequently pointed out in discussions of Al Jazeera that sources that are biased are not necessarily unreliable. Applying that standard uniformly, as we must, the ADL is a reliable source on I/P. ] (]) 14:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Why are you comparing apples to irrelevant oranges? No one is comparing the ADL, a lobby group, to Al Jazeera, a news source with bylines, masthead, editorial boarf and ethics policy. They're incomparable, and the standard to prove that the ADL ''is'' reliable, despite having no editorial controls, is far higher. ] (]) 16:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::Yes they are not comparable. AJ has bylines, masthead, editorial board and ethics policy, Qatari government ownership and content that reflects it. ] (]) 19:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:I agree with Iskandar that this is a terrible argument. Al Jazeera is a news organization with an editorial board and editorial standards. Their bias doesn't affect their reliability for facts.
	*:The ADL is an advocacy group, and it's increasingly clear that it's an advocacy group for Israel. They do not have an editorial board or editorial standards. They've even collaborated directly with the Israeli government in the past, according to The Nation. This does, pretty obviously, make them unreliable for facts and not just reliable-but-biased like Al Jazeera. ] (]) 18:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::While the ADL doesn't have editorial board (as it's not a newspaper) it has other processes installed for quality control, such as peer review. See here https://www.adl.org/research-centers/center-antisemitism-research ] (]) 07:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Even if we take that centre's promo pitch at face value, it only represents its own output, which is only a fraction of the ADL's output, and so logically can't be reflective of the ADL overall. ] (]) 09:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Well, you take Al Jazeera's promo pitch about independent editorial board and independent editorial control at face value, then why not take the ADL's one as well? And this center is the part of ADL that is responsible for their publications on antisemitism. So it is very relevant to the second vote below about the ADL's reliability on anti-Semitism. I suppose this comment should have gone under that section, but I just responded to Loki's claims about lack of "editorial board" without paying attention to what section it was in. Sorry about that. ] (]) 09:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::It's just a division within ADL, and unless content is specifically labelled as coming from the center, you don't know if it is or not. So again, this doesn't even reflect on the ADL is general, and no, two paragraphs do not establish that it is has standards. On the contrary, yes, I do appreciate the comprehensiveness of AJ's – do let us your know what you think is out of order. ] (]) 10:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::And that "]" length ethical standards document needs to be compared with the reality of coverage that has been widely condemned as advancing Qatari foreign policy and functioning as Hamas apologia, especially in its Arabic language coverage. ] (]) 15:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::You've rattled off this irrelevance about bias previously, and I didn't respond for that reason. Conspiratorial views about Qatar couldn't be less relevant to this discussion. ] (]) 15:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' Not really much new to add; the ADL has generally lumped criticism of the Israeli government and/or its policies in with legitimate antisemitism, which at least to me indicates they aren't particularly reliable on the I/P conflict. ] ] 19:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per My very best wishes and Marokwitz. They have a long history of fact checking and reliability, and are treated as credible by other reliable sources. ] (]) 21:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3 or 4''' clearly a zionist advocacy group that doesn't represent Jews or humanity due to the utter irrelevance the group holds outside of the USA. Being called antisemitic due to holding anti-zionist or anti colonialist views is sophistry and subterfuge of the highest caliber, and as such this group cannot be taken seriously in matters relating to Palestine or Israel. ] (])
	*'''Option 3''' The ADL has shown itself to be far too pro-Israel in their ongoing war against Hamas and have used their platform to attack people who have protested against Israel's actions. They are at the forefront of groups who try to equate even the slightest criticism of Israel's policies with anti-semitism. They also have recently been providing incidents of anti-semitism without evidence. An article they released recently conflated anti Israel protests on last weekend as being exclusively protests praising the actions of Hamas and included descriptions of signs yet did not provide photographic evidence of the more inflammatory signs they alleged to have seen. They have also called Jewish activists who do not support Zionism or Israel's policies as anti-semitic or useful idiots for anti-semites such as when they said that Jewish Voice for Peace was <i>" its Jewish identity to shield the anti-Israel movement from allegations of anti-Semitism and provide it with a greater degree of legitimacy and credibility."</i> Additionally, they've repeatedly denied that American police officers travel to Israel to train in spite of the fact the ADL themselves have routinely paid for these very programs that they deny. Since October 7th, they've increasingly squandered their credibility as an authority on racism and hate in support of an increasingly unpopular foreign conflict that the international community has grown to condemn, even among governments that have supported Israel such as the United States.] (]) 15:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 4''' An NGO which seems to smear ''every'' critic of Israely policies with an "antisemitic" allegation: No thanks. ] (]) 22:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' Generally reliable on gauging what do Zionists in the United States think of the conflict, but far too biased for neutral overviews. ]&nbsp;(he/him&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 15:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' per K.e.coffman and Zero. Biased sources can still be usable (although in this case, the bias is significant enough that it would at least be an option 2 situation, if they were this biased and still factual), but sources that let their bias get in the fact of being factual, and indeed (looking at this from a USEBYOTHERS perspective) require other sources which had initially used their facts to subsequently correct their own articles because those facts were not factual, well, that's option 3 or 4 territory. ] (]) 18:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 4''' There are a lot of articles around that analyzed in depth how worked that website and what was their stance. ''The Nation'' 's ''The Intercept'' ''The Boston Review'' ''The Guardian'' explained very well with clear highly problematic cases what was wrong. Consequently in the end TADL is not a reliable source for an encyclopedia such as Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 03:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. Extremly reputable organisation. Obviously those designated as racists, or their friends, are noisy regarding the classification by organisations such as the SPLC or the ADL, however such noise expected. The ADL is very reputable. ] (]) 05:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Who are those and who are their friends? ''']''' - 07:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1 (with serious Option 2 consideration as currently outlined in current Perennial Sources listing)''' With understanding for shifts in the tone and agenda of the organization in recent years, I think it's a troubling notion to attempt to depreciate an organization that has generally been considered reliable for more than a century (and is still considered reliable by most identified RS). This does not appear to be a mainstream matter, but a partisan one. Most of the sources provided that are attacking the ADL's credibility are politically leaning or partisan (as are, with respect, 90% of the editors who have shown up on this page). There are obvious considerations to be made given the ADL's natural and obvious slant (as currently outlined in its perennial listing), but until a majority of sources who consistently rely on ADL reporting declare it to be unfit or unreliable (which, in spite of The Nation's protestations, they have not), I see no need to alter the rating of this organization beyond current considerations already outlined. ] (]) 17:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:And are the editors supporting ADL’s credibility, you included, not partisan? Get off it. ''']''' - 19:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::Of course. Almost everybody on this discussion, from all sides, is partisan. That's what ] said: "90% of the editors who have shown up on this page". That's why we have to stick to facts, and not opinions. To show that ADL is unreliable you have to show a significant number of '''factual errors''' in their reporting. So far nobody managed to do that. ] (]) 20:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I, and others, have already done that. That you dislike that doesn’t change that it has been established. Anyway, I don’t find engaging with you to be particularly fruitful or enjoyable so I’ll stop now. Toodles. ''']''' - 21:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::N, That's not nice. I didn't say being partisan it was a bad thing. I'm glad people have strong opinions, but in terms of disqualifying a source that has been reliably used by other perennial RS, I'm going to need those editorial boards to chime in and prefer to rely upon that far more than a number of editors who routinely team engage in disqualification quests. ] (]) 20:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::You’re going to need some evidence for you aspersion about {{tq|team engage in disqualification quests}}, and you’re going to need something besides a partisan recounting of who is partisan to disqualify the overwhelming majority of views here that find this source to be dog shit for this topic. ''']''' - 21:13, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3'''. Largely per Levivich and Nableezy above. I won't add more citespam or walls of text, but there is ample evidence above that we should not be parroting the ADL in wikivoice with regard to I/P. <span style="color:magenta;">ezlev</span> <small>(]/]/])</small> 18:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1 - generally reliable'''. ADL is a generally reliable source in its areas of expertise, including antisemitism, extremism, democracy technology and society. ADL has a strong reputation for fact checking and accuracy in most mainstream sources as demonstrated in many of the comments in this discussion, and it has three professional research centers with different expertise areas. While ADL focuses heavily on antisemitism, it deals with extremism on a global scale, not focusing solely on Israel and Jews, but also on white supremacy, racism and worldwide terrorism. https://www.adl.org/research-centers/center-on-extremism. ] (]) 15:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3 or 4''' Not going to duplicate or rehash the enormous walls of text I've written and replied to in the antisemitism section, one can simply scroll down for that. The TL;DR is that the ADL is a hyperpartisan source on this issue and their credibility has been severely damaged under their current leadership, to the point where even many high-profile members of the ADL have resigned in protest. The ADL's issues on I/P in particular aren't new, but they've gotten much worse. They are not a reliable, academic, or objective source when the Israel-Palestine conflict is involved. I'm open to option 2 for content that is completely unrelated to Israel, Palestine, or related subjects such as zionism. But the ADL should absolutely not be used as a source of information on those subjects, certainly not without attribution. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 23:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. After reading a lot of the above discussion, I would like to briefly comment. I took another look at the reliability consensus legend, keeping in mind that we are considering the source as it relates to the ''Israel/Palestine conflict''.
	:-For ], {{tq|"Editors show consensus that the source is reliable in most cases on subject matters in its areas of expertise. The source has a '''reputation for fact-checking, accuracy, and error-correction''', often in the form of a strong editorial team."}} (bolding mine). On I/P conflict topics, I do not think we could fairly characterize the ADL as having a "reputation of fact-checking, accuracy and error-correction". As others have pointed out, in this area the ADL tends to make statements with ''advocacy'' in mind more-so than precision. A good example of this is shown in the which Levivich linked. Following the link to , the ADL wrote {{tq|"we certainly cannot sit idly by as a student organization provides vocal and '''potentially material support''' to Hamas"}} (emphasis mine), referring to ]. As noted in the article, the ] disputed that suggestion in an open letter . The Intercept wrote {{tq|"There is no evidence SJP has ever provided material support to Hamas"}}. From an outsider's perspective, the ADL's words seem more like an attempt to smear the SJP than faithful reporting by an expert. It was at best an unsupported claim. This kind of behavior seems unbefitting of a source we could turn to as "reliable" on the Israel/Palestine conflict matter.
	:-For ], {{tq|"Editors show consensus that the source is questionable in most cases. The source may lack an editorial team, have a poor reputation for fact-checking, fail to correct errors, be self-published, or present user-generated content."}} I think in this subject area (I/P conflict) it hits the mark of "questionable in most cases" as a source, particularly about the people and organizations it views as anti-Israel. ] (]) 05:54, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' '''on I/P''' '''or critiques of Zionism''', '''Option 2 otherwise'''. Per Nabeezy and Levivich. ] (]) 03:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. The ADL is respected and used by media and scholarship. It is the most respected source out there on antisemitism, and is a very strong source for other hate groups. ---Lilach5 (]) ] 04:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2/3''' Of course this is not an acceptable source for Israel-Palestine conflict. While ADL is itself not Zionist, they properly document the Zionist views, as such it can be still used for providing the Zionist point whenever it is needed because in the Israel-Palestine conflict. <span style="font-family:'Forte';">] (])</span> 08:46, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:The ADL is not Zionist? Are you sure about that? ] (]) 06:46, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' generally no expertise, whatever narrow expertise it might have is to take one side. ] (]) 15:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3 or 4'''. '']'' editorial bias from higher-ups to conflate antisemitism with anti-Zionism, to focus on anti-Zionism, especially after October 7. '']'' has also that ceasefire protests have been incorrectly marked as antisemitic. It doesn't appear that the ADL should have a positive reliability rating when it's strong support of Israel overrules fact-checking. ] (]) 23:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' as it pertains to I/P, per various editors who put it far better than I could myself above, including Nableezy and Levivich. I could only see used as a source for its own point of view, or perhaps general Zionist outlooks on the conflict. <small> ] (]) (it/she) </small> 15:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3'''. ADL is an explicitly biased pro-Israel advocacy group and its claims are not at all reliable regarding Israel-Palestine conflict. I'd support '''deprecating''' this source if some editor can demonstrate that this group promotes zionist or republican/neo-con conspiracy theories. ] (]) 11:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' preferred, will be ok with '''Option 4'''. ADL by definition is a campaign organisation, and thus cannot be sourced for objective facts. If the information sought falls close to their campaign themes, their bias becomes extreme. Conseqeuntly, ADL should not be used as a source for any information related to Israel other than what's allowed by ]. — ]&nbsp;] 15:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''', an advocacy source whose purpose often leads them to bias their reporting of the facts to such a degree that they are not useful as a source for an encyclopaedia. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 12:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
	* Having read the sources presented above (especially by user Levivich), unambiguously '''Option 3''' and '''Option 4''' would not be out of the question. No way an organization with such bias in this topic area could be presented as an RS for an encyclopedia. ] (]) 12:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''', per Nishidani. ] (]) 13:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''', very clearly a strongly pro-Israel biased organization, shouldn't be used as a source.--] (]) 21:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' per Levivich and Nableezy clearly unrealiable—] 18:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' Seems unreliable and should be attributed, especially after their turn towards ] instead of actual antisemitism ] (]) 21:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' A source having a bias does not make that source automatically unreliable. However, when that bias becomes so pervasive to the point that it directly impacts the factuality of the source is when a source becomes unreliable, which is what has happened here. ] (]) 03:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''', weakly leaning Option 2. They will of course be biased by the nature of the cause they support. I don't see them as making things up, so seem to be reliable but with a lean one way or the other. ] (]) 17:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' - The ADL is widely viewed as a highly credible source on the issues it works on (akin to suggesting SPLC is not credible on hate groups or HRC is not credible on LGBT issues). It is generally reliable which is why it is ] which, per ], is "evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts". ] (]) 22:55, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2 or 3''': Marginally reliable but completely bias and attribution should always be required. Given the ADL are staunchly pro-Israeli, I can also understand why it could also be considered generally unreliable, as have seen an increasing amount of claims that any criticsm of Israel is inherently anti-semitic, which blends into Part 2 of this discussion. ] (]) 12:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3, bordering on option 4''' per the numerous examples presented of it being a pro-Israel/pro-Isaeli government advocacy group that doesn't trouble itself with sticking to the facts. There may be occasions when it's appropriate to quote the ADL's point of view, but this must always be done with attribution and never presented as fact without independent supporting evidence. ] (]) 15:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' - And I'm pretty shocked this has to be mentioned. They're a partisan political organization with a particular view and agenda. It's like asking if the Republican Party or Democratic party are reliable sources. Uh, no? If RS are covering an issue, and covers their viewpoint, they can be quoted as an example of said viewpoint. But not as a source on anything. ] (]) 01:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Additional considerations apply''': Per my comment below. ] ] 16:41, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 4''' or, failing that, '''option 3'''.
	In particular, I feel that the ADL should be deprecated with regard to antisemitism in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the issues that most closely relate to that, such as ]. This would include resources like the , as well as press releases and other findings published by the ADL that either have something to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or are somehow tainted by the ADL's unreliability on that topic, such as when the ADL cites statistics about antisemitism as a whole that are dubious because of the way it classifies pro-Palestinian sentiment. In addition to having a strong pro-Israel bias, the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt regularly promote falsehoods, stories that are later debunked, and make claims they don't independently confirm with forensic evidence, relying on their reputation as "the leading anti-hate organization in the world" to lend credibility to their claims.
	Others have made a distinction between advocacy groups and academic or news organizations, but I'd like to add that the way the ADL markets itself as an impartial, "anti-hate" organization makes its bias and its false or insinuating claims especially misleading. Because the ADL launders its pro-Israel advocacy and bias through its reputation as an impartial and neutral anti-bigotry research and advocacy group, it can be particularly misleading when used as a source.
	I think others have already brought up many of the major examples of egregious bias and misinformation from the ADL that I could find, but I'll briefly summarize my findings here. Please note that some of these are merely instances of egregious bias which function as arguments for option 3, while others are instances of outright misinformation or denialism that should be counted in favor of option 4.
	To bring up some pre-war stuff first, since I feel that hasn't been focused on as much, the ADL the Armenian Genocide until 2007, and didn't fully acknowledge it until 2016, which calls its credibility and consistency on foreign policy and international issues in general into question.
	The ADL also the construction of ] in New York. One of the few good things (in my opinion) that Greenblatt has done in his time was apologize for those positions, but before him, Abe Foxman was apologizing for the ADL itself with ]. In other words, the ADL has a track record over the years of being wrong when it was popular and apologizing for it after everyone else has moved on, particularly on the issue of other forms of bigotry, like Islamophobia and anti-Black racism.
	This impacts its credibility as a broadly concieved "anti-hate" organization, but beyond that, it impacts the ADL's reliability in reporting on any sort of bias, including antisemitism, in the context of international relations and US foreign policy. That the ADL somehow managed to support apartheid and the persecution of Muslim-Americans after 9/11 and deny the Armenian Genocide while acting as an organization ostensibly founded to oppose all bigotry calls into question its principled and impartial opposition to hate and discrimination, which is what supposedly gives it a level of credibility that openly pro-Israel advocacy groups don't have. So, to be clear, in addition to any false or misleading claims the ADL has published recently, we should take into account how the way it presents itself as an organization is misleading.
	Now onto those false and misleading statements. The strongest examples I could find were:
	1. The that student protesters were "Iranian proxies" and providing material support to Hamas/terrorism
	2. the keffiyeh to the swastika
	3. anti-Zionism to white supremacy
	4. for some pretty serious antisemitism and comparing him to Henry Ford (you can't make this up) after he agreed to censor pro-Palestinian speech on X.
	5. the 40 beheaded babies claim and other stories from October 7th that have since been debunked.
	Now, these have all been statements from Jonathan Greenblatt. Other editors have pointed out that these statements have come from him in order to make the argument that those statements shouldn't impact the ADL's overall credibility. However, Greenblatt is speaking as a representative of the organization in these examples and the others provided; it does and should affect the ADL's credibility.
			==RfC: NewsNation==
	There is also a broader pattern in controversies over pro-Palestinian advocacy in public life of the ADL using sweeping language to describe incidents in a way that lends greater force and legitimacy to their claims than their documentation supports. This issue can't be reduced to a rogue CEO. For example, take the for the ADL and Brandeis center's expanded lawsuit against "snowballing antisemitism" in the Berkeley K-12 school district, which claims that {{tq|During an unauthorized teacher-promoted walkout for Palestine, no teachers intervened as students shouted, “Kill the Jews,” “KKK,” “Kill Israel,”}} alongside banal instances of pro-Palestinian sentiment like hanging a Palestinian flag in the window and writing "Stop bombing babies" on a sticky note. A reader who trusts the ADL's good reputation might assume they have video of all this, but when you read the actual , a lot of the most severe allegations, as well as nebulous claims like a teacher showing students "violent videos" are unsubstantiated by verifiable evidence. Some of the incidents the ADL is "documenting" here were apparently overheard by a first grader. ] (]) 04:30, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
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			What is the reliability of ]?
	=== Part 2: antisemitism ===
	<!-- ] 12:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1715515271}}
	What is the reliability of the ] regarding antisemitism?
	* '''Option 1: ]'''		* '''Option 1: ]'''
	* '''Option 2: ]'''		* '''Option 2: ]'''
	* '''Option 3: ]'''		* '''Option 3: ]'''
	* '''Option 4: ]'''		* '''Option 4: ]'''
	] (]) 00:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)		] (]) 19:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	====Survey (ADL:antisemitism)====
			===Survey (NewsNation)===
	* '''Option 2 or 3'''. The ADL usually is reliable on antisemitism and antisemitic hate groups not involving the Israel/Palestine conflict. But it's very much not reliable on antisemitism when that antisemitism touches on the Israel/Palestine conflict in some way. This happens often enough that it hurts the ADL's reputation for fact-checking regarding this issue generally. ] (]) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2:''' Generally reliable for reporting not related to aviation, astronomy, or physics. Unreliable for reporting on these topics generally, and for UFOs specifically (including, but not limited to, shape-shifting Mantids, flying saucers, time-traveling psychonauts, human/space alien cross-breeding programs, the Majestic 12, and treaties/diplomacy with the Galactic Federation of Light).
	* '''Option 2 or 3'''. The intentional conflation of antisemitism with antizionism is a huge problem to make it a reliable source on these topics. -- ] (] · ]) 00:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			**NewsNation seems to have made an overt and conscious editorial decision to lean into UFOs for ratings purposes . In many cases, these stories are masked as conventional science reporting but with a heavy "/spooky event" frame. Ross Coulthart is NewsNation's UFO beat reporter and files most of its prolific reports on the paranormal. Coulthart appears to be a true believer and uses NewsNation to engage in space alien advocacy versus conventional forms of journalism.
	* '''Option 1'''. No evidence has been posted of unreliability - of them making false claims. It's unclear to me why we are even hosting this discussion without such evidence, and in the absence of it we shouldn't change ADL's rating. ] (]) 00:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			***In an interview on NewsNation on 13 December 2024 related to the ], Coulthart said {{xt|"... the White House is making completely false claims! The people of New Jersey are not alone"!}} . Multiple federal and state investigations, as well as independent evaluation by experts including ] and ], all concluded sightings were misidentification of routine aerial and celestial objects.
	*'''Option 3''' <del>'''Option 2 for pre-2016''' and'''Option 3for 2016 and later''' </del> I have no personal take on the matter, however, based on a cursory search, RS have repeatedly questioned the veracity of its statements regarding the topic, though these criticisms have been clustered over the last ten years. For example (not exhaustive):<Br/>
			***Writing in ''The Skeptic'', Ben Harris identifies Coulthart as one of a group of UFO celebrities, describing their approach thusly: {{xt|"Drama is to the forefront; they ride their high horses, full of their own self-import, their truth, making demands of Congress – and mainstream media – who they think are ‘missing the story of a lifetime’."}}
	:* '']'' has repeatedly and acutely examined and criticized ADL's standards and methods for evaluating and determining Antisemitism (e.g. ).
			***He wrote a UFO book titled ''Plain Sight'' which ] described as a {{xT|"conspiracy narrative"}} and a {{xt|"slipshod summary"}}.
	:* ] has criticized the ADL's statements on Antisemitism as being politically motivated (e.g. ).
			***The Australian Skeptics gave Coulthart their "Bent Spoon Award" for {{Xt|“espousing UFO conspiracies, including unsubstantiated claims that world governments and The Vatican are hiding extraterrestrial alien bodies and spacecraft on Earth.”}}
	:*] has written the ADL has "lost the plot" and used its research into Antisemitism as a "partisan political issue", rather than an objective method of evaluation ().
			***The ] did a TV special on Coulthart's reporting in which they closed by asking {{xt|"Has Coutlhart gone crazy, or is he a visionary?}} while strongly implying the former.
	:*As documented by '']'' , the ADL has previously "cleared" allegedly Antisemitic persons before subsequently denouncing them as Antisemitic only after their evaluation itself has been criticized. This gives question to the reliability of their research or whether their statements are even based on an objective criteria at all.
			***The '']'' has described him as a {{Xt|"UFO truther"}} with {{xt|"little appetite for scrutiny"}}.
	:Based on these, and other, sources I would say that <del>pre-2016 content sourced to the ADL is fine for non-extraordinary claims and 2016 and later content</del> <ins>it is</ins> generally unreliable and should not be used except with attribution and not with respect to ]s. <ins>After reading ] article linked by ], I'm tipped to Option 3 without respect to time period.</ins> ] (]) 01:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC); edited 01:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			***Coulthart seems to have had a leading role in promoting a debunked ] investigation into an alleged child sex ring run by British politicians.
	* '''Option 2 for anti-Semitism not relating to Israel''' and '''Option 4 for anti-Semitism in the context of Israel'''. It has that the ADL conflates criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, and has in fact modified the way it defines anti-Semitism to include anti-Zionist rhetoric, especially in the last few years. It should be noted that "in the context of Israel" should be ''very'' broadly construed here, given the ADL's history of defending anti-Semitic remarks when made by people and organizations with a pro-Israel stance ( ) even when those statements themselves do not directly seem to relate to Israel, when viewed alone. ] (]) 01:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			**Beyond Coulthart, NewsNation reporters have other issues with UFOs:
	*:The ADL doesn't consider any criticism of Israel to be antisemitic or anti-Zionist ({{tquote|Anti-Zionism is distinct from criticism of the policies or actions of the government of Israel, or critiques of specific policies of the pre-state Zionist movement, in that it attacks the foundational legitimacy of Jewish self-determination and statehood.}}) ]<sub>]</sub> 13:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			***In 2023, according to our own article on NewsNation (sourced to the ''Washington Post'': ), the channel {{xt|"was forced to issue corrections after incorrectly claiming that The Intercept had obtained leaked information regarding Grusch's mental health"}}.
	*::The last source we should be using to define anti-Zionism is the ADL, which per this and the previous discussion routinely spouts nonsense on the topic. This above passage is actually damning in that it shows how the ADL creates its own strawman definitions as a means to manipulate the discourse. ] (]) 17:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			***In December 2024, reporter Rich McHugh did a stand-up near LaGuardia Airport in New Jersey and showed an aerial object that he breathlessly (literally, he's panting the whole time) said {{xt|"... was more sophisticated than I could ever imagine ... I couldn't believe what I was seeing"}}. The thing he couldn't believe he was seeing was, according to ]'s analysis, a Boeing 737 .
	*'''Option 3''': This is an advocacy group so the threshold is higher than for a standard peer-reviewed secondary source. Recent coverage suggests that the sources is not only biased but may be unreliable. For example, '']'' dismantles ADL's claims that "U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in Israel" and asks --] (]) 01:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			:] (]) 19:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*:It's possible that calling for the destruction of the only Jewish state in the world (from the river to the sea, you know), is not considered to be antisemitic by the Nation's James Bamford, but it's a matter of opinion and plenty of people disagree. ]<sub>]</sub> 07:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' for topics outside UFOs, '''Option 3''' for UFO coverage ] (]) 20:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*::Precisely. As I had demonstrated in the source I brought in my vote here - most people agree that calling for the destruction of the only Jewish state in the world is antisemitic. ] (]) 07:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2:''' Generally reliable for broad topics. They turn loony when covering UFOs. Don't consider them for UFO coverage. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 22:43, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	:::'the only Jewish state in the world'. The Vatican is the only Catholic state in the world. That is a confessional state, however, not an ethnic state. To call for a state to drop its ethnic qualification for citizenship and extend recognition to that 50% of the population of ] which is non-Jewish is not tantamount for calling for the 'destruction' of that state. Were it so, it would be 'antisemitic' to subscribe to the ] and assert its relevance to the structural dilemma instinct in Israel's own self-definition as an ethnic state. ] (]) 12:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::I dont understand the Vatican analogy. Do you deny that the Jews are an ethnic group? ] (]) 12:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)		*'''Option 3''' their mishandling of UFO topics suggests they're more interested in sensationalism than accuracy. ] (]) 15:25, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2''' per Chetsford. – ] (]&nbsp;<b>·</b> ]) 01:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Sometimes, if a post puzzles one, it is better to think its content over for more than 3 minutes, particularly if the said post distils a very large topical literature and presumes familiarity with it. I decline your invitation to make a thread of the idea of 'the only Jewish state in the world' (Italy, Ireland, Germany,etc.etc. are the only Italian, Irish, German states in the world).] (]) 12:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' since I think their general reporting is reliable. Attribution may be a good alternative.] (]) 08:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::I didn't invite you to anything. You commented on my comment without any invitation. Which is absolutely ok by me BTW. But I noted that you evaded my question about whether you deny the the Jews are an ethnic group. ] (]) 12:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Probably because it is not germane to this discussion, run along now. ] (]) 12:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)		*'''Option 1''' for topics outside UFOs, '''Option 3''' for UFO coverage. Compare ]. ] (]) 08:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 3''' why are we putting ''any'' stock in an organization known primarily for babbling about UFOs? This is a severe case of “]” syndrome. ] (]) 11:22, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::In fact Germany has a right of return law for ethnic Germans, so I'm not sure why you mentioned it. Fortunately Germany is not in an immediate danger of destruction unlike Israel. ]<sub>]</sub> 13:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Germans didn’t steal Germany from another ethnic group. ] (]) 16:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)		*'''Option 1''' for topics outside UFOs, '''Option 3''' for UFO coverage. - ] (]) 00:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2''' I would go with Option 2 but their UFO coverage makes me consider Option 3. I think for anything outside of UFO-related topics they are generally reliable. Other sources should be cited. ] (]) 01:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*::It's also possible that intentionally conflating criticism of Israeli actions with "calling for the destruction of the only Jewish state in the world" is precisely the sort of stunt that makes ADL unreliable; thanks for the demonstration of how it works. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' for non-UFO coverage, '''Option 3''' for UFO coverage. ]@] 00:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Discussion (NewsNation)===
	*::Stop with the parlour tricks. The Nation neither mentions "calls for destruction" nor the "from the river to the sea" slogan. Not only can you not dismiss RS analysis with your own opinion/imaginings, but you also can not misrepresent a source for rhetorical purposes in a contentious topic area. Don't continue. ] (]) 07:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
			*For purposes of clarification, the reliability of NewsNation has previously come up in two different RSN discussions and two different article Talk page discussions. Beyond that, however, it's repeatedly invoked to source UFO articles to the point that constant re-litigation of its reliability via edit summaries is becoming a massive time sink. ] (]) 19:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
	*:::The only pro Palestinian group that mentions as being recently classified as antisemitic by the ADL in ]. And I have shown, '''based on reliable sources''', that the the SJP does indeed call for the abolition of Israel. you can find a collection of citations here ] ] (]) 08:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::Alaexis, this comment is absolutely shameful and I implore you to strike it. I was going to write a longer reply addressing specific statements you and Vegan made, but I felt that doing so would cause the discussion to stray far from anything related to the topic of this discussion. I will instead just say that I +1 what Zero0000 said. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 20:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''', with possibility for attributed opinion in some cases. As a huge organization (revenue over $100 million) whose very existence is tied to antisemitism, it is strongly to their own advantage to talk up the incidence of antisemitism. This conflict of interest makes it necessary to consider their pronouncements on the subject critically, just as we wouldn't take the pronouncements of an oil company on fossil fuels at face value. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' - Seems like a classic #2 per what I wrote . The ''subject'' of antisemitism includes a broad range of ADL's work. As this is separate from the I/P question, we're presumably primarily talking about its work on antisemitism that ''isn't'' connected to the I/P conflict. So, for example, from a few years ago. It's a great resource that's been widely cited in academic work/the press. Would it be considered unreliable because it includes antisemitism among its forms of extremism? Is there any reason to doubt that part? It wasn't even written by ADL staff, but by ] and his colleagues, one of the most respected scholars on extremism on the internet. Still, it's decidedly an ADL publication, hosted on their website. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 02:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*<s>'''Option 1'''</s>. '''Option 2'''. First, I agree with the argument by BilledMammal above. Secondly, there is a big wave of antisemitism related to the Israel-Palestine conflict. I think it is actually worse than many other manifestations of antisemitism. Hence, the sourced views by ADL related to the conflict should be included even if they seem to be unfair to some people. ] (]) 02:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Personal opinions on a source and beliefs that it has an important place in societal debate in a specific context are both unrelated to reliability. ] (]) 09:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3 <s>or 2</s>'''. While I'm somewhat more at ease with the ADL's coverage of antisemitism unrelated to Israel–Palestine matters, its misidentification of antisemitism as pertains to organizations and people involved with politics connected to Israel–Palestine is serious enough that it's difficult to still consider the ADL credible on the topic more generally. I quoted from Oxford University Press' ''Antisemitism: A Very Short Introduction'' a couple times in the above thread to warrant my sense that in particular, the ADL's conflation of criticism of Israel with antisemitism is well out of step from the field. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 07:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:I have amended my contribution to strengthen my preference for Option 3. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 21:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''': Generally reliable. No evidence was shown of the ADL making false claims. In particular, its view that antizionism is sometimes a type of antisemitism is quite mainstream. For example, in 2016, the ] adopted a ], one which subsequently was officially recognized by various legislatures and governments, foremost among them, the United States and France, which endorsed the equation of certain manifestations of anti-Zionism with antisemitism.
	:And here are several references to RS which include support the claim that antizionism is antisemitism:
	:https://books.google.co.il/books?id=767fCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
	:https://books.google.co.il/books?id=BHtrEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA448&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
	:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/29/comment ] (]) 07:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''Chetsford and Hydrangeans have explained it well.] (]) 09:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' also as discussed before, ADL's conflation of antisemitism and antizionism has received widespread criticism, including increasing internal dissent from its own staff. Their figures on antisemitism has been put into question by RS like the Guardian and the Nation. ] (]) 09:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option <s>2 or</s> 3''' generally reliable except when Israel is involved. Entirely unreliable where Israel is involved. ] (]) 09:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Considering the split above, shouldn’t it be a 1 (or 1 or 2) here, as Israel is treated separately and you consider them GREL with exception to that? ] (]) 10:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::I voted the same way, and no. 2 is green or yellow with a note. 3 is red with an exception. 1 would be green without qualifications. ] (]) 13:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Then I would apply the same to you: assuming a clearly divergent result, we would probably split it in two, the same way [[ Misplaced Pages
	*::::Reliable sources/Perennial sources]] does HuffPost, where clearly different outcomes would be allowed, assuming the words used by @] are meant the same way as they are generally used on Misplaced Pages.
	*:::] (]) 13:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::No. Please don't reinterpret my !votes to be more permissive than I said. It is tedious. ] (]) 16:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::My apologies. Would you be willing to clarify which additional considerations you would consider applicable that go beyond the obvious non-inclusion of Israel into your vote? ] (]) 16:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::"except when Israel is involved" ''is'' an additional consideration. ] (]) 16:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Unfortunately the tendency of the ADL to conflate antisemitism with anti-zionism cannot be cleanly separated. Through this they have cast their judgment on the topic of anti-Semitism, in general, in doubt. In fact I will update my !vote due to additional review of the arguments above. ] (]) 16:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''<s>Option 2 - usable with attribution for antisemitism not relating to Israel; and Option 4 (or option 3 if depreciation is impractical) for antisemitism in the context of Israel</s> Option 3:''' The ADL has had a long-standing role, especially within the US, in identifying and critiquing patterns of antisemitism within society. Such assessments are rarely without controversy, and, as a particularly pointed advocacy group, the ADL should still be attributed when used as a standalone source (option 2). Where these assessments overlap with the IP conflict, for all the reasons outlined in the proceeding section, the ADL is not to be trusted and should not be used. It has a habit of both giving a free pass to antisemitic tendencies when the individuals involved align with it politically on IP, while also miscategorizing individuals and movements that fail to align with it politically on IP as antisemitic when they are not (including through the problematic conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism). This is pretty unforgivable, and its pronouncements on antisemitism within the context of the conflict (broadly construed, as mentioned by others) should be disregarded as deprecated/unreliable. ] (]) 10:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:You can't really both deprecate and not deprecate a source because we have an edit filter that warns when you add links to deprecated sources. ] (] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 13:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::Ah! Well that would fall under the 'impractical' clause then. Didn't realise the filter kicked in like that. ] (]) 14:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Modifying vote to option 3 as the ADL no longer appears to adhere to a serious, mainstream and intellectually cogent definition of antisemitism, but has instead given into the shameless politicisation of the very subject that it was originally esteemed for being reliable on. ] (]) 14:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' But only if the subject matter doesn't involve Israel in any fashion. I would even say restricting them to just their commentary on known right-wing groups would be best. ]]<sup>]</sup> 14:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' pro-zionist lobbying organization that conflates anti-zionism (opposition to a nation with a well-documented history of human rights abuses) with antisemitism (hatred of the Jewish people). ] (]) 16:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3 or 4''' ADL itself that they count pro-Palestinian protests in the US as "antisemitic incidents" - this is an astoundingly dishonest misrepresentation of statistics. Even if a protest features no hostility or hatred towards Jewish people, if it features criticism of the Israeli government, Israeli politicians or the Israeli military, it is an "anti-semitic incident". The ADL is simply, by their own admission, making up these reports. This is nothing other than pure, politically-motivated disinformation. They should never be considered a reliable source. ] (]) 17:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' as regards AS in general, Option 3 for AS in relation to Israel or the AI/IP area. Changing definitions to suit political objectives is classic ]. ] (]) 17:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' - because it is a pro-Israeli lobbying group that equates criticism of Israel or anti-Zionism with antisemitism, it is not reliable for the topic of antisemitism. See sources in my vote on the I/P question. ] (]) 17:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2'''. The specific problem raised by the sources is when Israel, Palestinians, and Zionism come up; it shouldn't be used in that context. But there's not much sourcing questioning its reliability in other contexts and it does have enough ] to be otherwise reliable, so when discussing antisemitism ''unrelated'' to the I/P conflict it remains fine. --] (]) 20:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' for anything that does not involve Israel, '''Option 3 or 4''' otherwise. ] (]) 23:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' for matters unrelated to Israel, '''option 3''' for matters connected to Israel. The ADL is a useful source for attributed opinion on antisemitism unconnected to Israel/Palestine, however it makes inaccurate statements with regards to pro-Palestinian "antisemitism" even taking into account an extreme zionist view of what antisemitism might constitute. Simply speaking, we should not be including their claims in this regard without a very good reason.] (]) 06:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' with attribution, as it's widely used by ]. The criticism of ADL (see the links provided by u:Chetsford and u:K.e.coffman) is primarily about their definition of antisemitism . We should not assume that James Bamford's definition of antisemitism is right and the ADL one is wrong. I haven't seen any examples of falsehoods that they published. ]<sub>]</sub> 07:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:First, “all definitions of antisemitism are equally (in)valid” is patently not true. ADL says antisemitism includes any criticism of zionism. There are Jewish people who oppose zionism and always have been, and I don’t think they’re ] either. Secondly, plenty of examples of ADL publishing skewed/distorted information have been provided. So either you didn’t read the discussion very thoroughly or are deliberately ignoring those examples. ] (]) 08:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::@] Your claim that "ADL says antisemitism includes any criticism of zionism" is '''patently not true'''. In fact the ADL explicitly says and that '''not''' every criticism of Israel and Zionism is antisemitism. It only considers antizionism as antisemitic when it delegitimizes the existence of Israel as the Jewish manifestation of self-determination (as it goes against the principle of self determination uniquely for Jews only) or if it used well known antisemitic tropes. And in those cases the ADL position definitely matches the ] by the ] '''which definitely carries more weight''' than the personal definition of antisemitism used by a certain James Bamford from ''The Nation'', or even the personal opinions of entire editorial board of ''The Nation''. ] (]) 09:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::From the article: “The IHRA definition has been heavily criticised by academics, including legal scholars, who say that it stifles free speech relating to criticism of Israeli actions and policies.” Just because something is popular and politically correct doesn’t mean it carries more weight than other opinions. By that logic the opinion “homosexuality is evil” carries more weight than the scientific consensus that homosexuality is healthy and normal, because millions, possibly billions, of people agree with that statement and enshrine it in law. And no I’m not listening to anything the ADL says about itself because that’s the definition of a primary source, the last thing you’d go to in a controversial situation like this. ] (]) 09:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::# The fact that the IHRA definition has been criticized by some people does not change the fact that it is the dominant definition that was accepted by several democratic legislatures (including USA and France), by most mainstream media (this is after all what this ''The Nation''<nowiki/>'s article laments about - why the mainstream media follows the ADL opinions on this. so the Nation itself admits that its view is not mainstream) and by many (probably most) academics in the field. At the very least you have to admit that it definitely doesn't carry '''''less''''' weight than the opinion of the writers in The Nation.
	*::::# The fact that the ADL sources are primary sources does not negate what I said. To say that "ADL '''says''' antisemitism includes any criticism of zionism", when the ADL '''says''' exactly the opposite, '''is a lie.''' '''Even if you don't believe they mean what they say, the fact remains that this is what they said.'''
	*::::] (]) 09:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::On the “says” issue, I was speaking metaphorically. You’re missing the meat of what I was saying by arguing semantics. Really you’re just avoiding the whole point of this discussion— the ADL’s respectability is widely questioned —by delegitimizing any negative sources and making vague-wave appeals to authorities that are either unreliable and biased themselves (governments and the IHRA) or ephemeral (“]”) ] (]) 10:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::@] Although I'm vegan I do not avoid the "meat of the discussion" :-) But what it is? To me it seems that the "meat of the discussion" is that you think that the ADL should be disqualified because they think that antizionism is antisemitism (in certain conditions). Am I wrong? ] (]) 15:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::Not ''just'' because of that, but because many sources linked from here show their coverage of antisemitism and I/P are unreliable and biased. ] (]) 15:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::{{tq|Just because something is popular and politically correct doesn’t mean it carries more weight than other opinions.}} If you're admitting that the IHRA definition is the one accepted by the majority of sources then it's one we should prioritize. You haven't really provided sources here to show that the scholarly consensus on the IHRA definition differs from the majority consensus beyond vague mentions of "academics, including legal scholars". <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 13:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::It is noteworthy that the and so far, . There is a lot of resistance from many quarters to IHRA. ] (]) 14:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' regarding anti-Semitism in general, and '''Option 4''' regarding anti-Semitism in the context as per Brusquedandelion due to the ADL conflating anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. ] (]) 09:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1/2'''. Nobody seems to provide evidence for ADL being inaccurate in its factual claims relating to antisemitic incidents, so I remain of the view I expressed in the first thread about this: I believe ADL is a reliable source for facts in the topic area where it has expertise, e.g. in reporting on right-wing hate groups or conspiracy theories. The problem is about its judgement in using contentious labels such as "extremist", which are labels WP generally ought to avoid anyway. It is also the case that it is hasty in labelling Israel criticism as antisemitic and fails to distinguish between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. For this reason, we should not say "X is antisemitic", citing only ADL. However, as it is heavily cited and notable, it would often be noteworthy for us to say "ADL describe X as antisemitic", balanced with noteworthy opposing views where applicable. ] (]) 11:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 2'''. I have many, many, many grievances with the quality of the ADL’s coverage in my specific topic area (crime, especially high profile far-right motivated crime). However, deprecation is stupid, and generally unreliable is too much, so option 2. ] (]) 14:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:As you've voted "additional considerations apply", could you be more specific about your issues? Which additional considerations do you think should apply? ] (]) 22:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::The ADL is widely used onwiki to a degree that is disproportionate in articles on hate groups/crimes etc, which is worse because there are almost always better sources around. Their problems in this field go beyond bad research on hate symbols. Also as said before they conflate pro-Palestine activity with things like neo-Nazism in their classification of antisemitism - which is misleading.
	*::I think they should be okay to be used when it's considered appropriate to add that the ADL considers them a hate group but there should be additional considerations regarding including their fact-based work. My opinion generally is they aren't "generally unreliable" at all but that they are far from "generally reliable". Awkward middle ground where I think they're usable in some circumstances. ] (]) 13:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1: Generally Reliable'''. A reliable source is NOT required to be neutral according to ] - and obviously, this org is opinionated, however, ADL, and particularly its scholarly research arm, ADL Center for Antisemitism Research (CAR) is a respectable organization with a peer-review process and upholding academic best practices. ] (]) 05:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			== Useage of Arabic-language sources in ] ==
	*'''Option 3''' - an advocacy group, it must be held to higher standards than other sources (per K.e.coffman). When this source conflates antisemitism and anti-Zionism, evidence by Levivich (previous discussion), Aquillion (previous discussion) and Brusquedandelion, it should not be considered a reliable source on antisemitism. ''']] (])''' 13:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			This thread is opened at the request of @] following the dispute between me and @] in ] on the multiple issues regarding that article.
	*'''Option 3''' per Chetsford, Levivich and others who have demonstrated that it's an unreliable source on antisemitism. ] (]) 15:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			I have translated the article from both the Arabic (My native language) and Portuguese (Using a translator) articles to try and include both POVs of the battle. Javext claims that the sources that I've used are completely unreliable and shouldn't be used on the article because he claims that:<br>
	*'''Option 1''' per others above and the fact that their definition of anti-semitism is widely accepted by both reliable sources and aligns with other relevant organizations/authorities. ] (]) 19:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			1. The academic backgrounds of the writers of those sources are unknown (keeping in mind that they were written by Yemenis who have limited internet access), and<br>
			2. {{tq|1=Yemeni state-controlled media outlets}} wrote them (also keeping in mind that Yemen is a poor and fractured state without any budget to have "state-controlled media outlets")
			Now, Javext has removed all the sources and text that they support from the article and used other sources (some of which I find no problems with using, although they provide little context compared to the other sources) and kept the sources that I've brought when I translated the Portuguese article.
			]: This is the version of the article that has the Arabic sources and is the version that I want to keep and then expand with other sources that both I and Jav has used. <br>
			]: This is the version that Jav wants to keep
			Sources used by the version that I want to keep (I have run them through Google Translate's website translator for yall to understand):
			*
			*
			*
			* (This one doesn't want to get translated using the website translator but it gets translated if you right-click and press "Translate to English" on chrome)
			*
			*
			Extra source that I want to use after the dispute is resolved:
			*
			''']]''' 15:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I can't speak directly to the content dispute but none of the links you posted are wiki-appropriate sources. They're amateur essays. Please use academic publications instead. If you can't find a reliable source that supports your viewpoint, that viewpoint doesn't belong on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 22:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::There are contemporary Arabic-language descriptions of this battle, and I would expect appropriate sources to engage with them directly. One is translated into English by R. B. Serjeant in ''The Portuguese off the South Arabian Coast'' (1963), pp. 52-53, and compare note by C. F. Buckingham at ibid., pp. 171-172, citing Portuguese records. also seems to be a relevant document. ] (]) 23:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq|1=There are contemporary Arabic-language descriptions of this battle}}<br>]?<br>{{tq|1=citing Portuguese records}}<br>That is one of the things that we were discussing in the dispute. We have enough Portuguese POV in Jav's revision. Plus did you see what the sources were citing in the revisions above ''']]''' 07:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, that's why I didn't say "cite these contemporary descriptions" but "expect appropriate sources to engage with them". If you want to account for non-Portuguese perception, the way to do it is find sources that discuss contemporary Arabic descriptions, not use modern amateur essays based on nothing. ] (]) 14:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::One example of another secondary source comparing the accounts (after C. F. Buckingham) is Subrahmanyam, Sanjay (1997). ''The Career and Legend of Vasco da Gama''. pp. 290-291. () ] (]) 17:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::GordonGlottal, why do you think that? They look to be published sources at least.--] (]) 07:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The independent arabia source cites a historian's account. Does that still count as unreliable?''']]''' 15:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::This is definitely the strongest source, I didn't see that you'd added it. ''The Independent'' is a solid newspaper, but specialist, technical sources are a requirement for this kind of disputed claim. I don't know who Bamousa is and google just turns up mentions of his education activism and participation in a literary society—can you find out anything about him? The basic thing is that there needs to be evidence, or a source saying it that we can assume would not be saying it without evidence. If there isn't any evidence there could still be a "modern legend" section based on these sources, I think, because it is interesting how the event is being discussed. ] (]) 17:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I tried searching for info about him online but there is limited info about him as Yemen doesn't have the best internet and the guy is really old to care about posting about himself online (Apparently he had been documenting the history there since the ] was a thing according to a Facebook post made by a high school that he attended).{{efn|Machine translation: Mr. Mohammed Omar Bamusa, a native of Al-Shahr and a graduate of the third class of Al-Mukalla High School for Boys (now Bin Shihab High School for Boys)<br>High School Flags<br>Tuesday, September 17, 2024<br>After years of parting, Abu Bakr Bin Shihab High School for Boys in Mukalla embraced Mr. Mohammed Omar Bamoussa, who graduated on the educational ladder for years and is now at the age of retirement. He visited the high school and in his gaze with passion and love for the past years, he climbed the stairs of the high school to the second floor to the office of the principal Mr. Saeed Ahmed Al-Amari, who welcomed him warmly and said that this visit gave us a boost and moral support, and the visit for Mr. Bamoussa was to ask about the old administrators, services and guards who were who were in the period of the sixties and seventies, but unfortunately the administration could not answer this and invites everyone who has information about them to raise it quickly, as Mr. Bamoussa has been working for years on writing a book about the beginning of education in Hadramawt since the time of the Qaitian Sultanate in the sixties and the beginning of the seventies, and he made a very important statement that the first principal of the high school is Mr. Karama Bammin from Tarim and then came after him Mr. Al-Sudani Al-Taloudi and this was a surprise for us and he confirmed this in his book that will see the light after completion of it.<br>May God prolong his life and give him health and wellness to provide us with important information about the history of education in Hadramawt.<br>The high school administration thanks Mr. Mohammed Bamoussi for this visit and this effort exerted by him for this wonderful work, and wishes the officials in the Ministry of Education, the governorate office and the local authority to adopt such people who raise the slogan of education and the slogan of Hadramawt, the land of science, knowledge and culture.}} He is cited by multiple Arabic language sources, like the Independent (ofc) and al-Ayyam Aden (linked above), and is mentioned in others . He also published a book about the city of Shihr . He was also visited by the minister of education of Yemen in 2023 {{pb}}{{talkreflist|group=lower-alpha}} ''']]''' 19:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Yeah basically, I don't see this as proof of anything. I've had a few other conversations on here about whether it's valid to include something based on an academic commenting to a reporter, and it just doesn't seem like a reliable genre of source. Even if Bamousa turned out to have sterling credentials. One of the problems is that the comment is often well outside the expert's field of expertise. Reporters don't want to call 1,000 different sources for each niche subject, so they rely on a small number of people who are willing to comment on almost anything, and these academics, who might be ultra-rigorous in another context, just regurgitate the same loose thinking anyone else would. Bamousa is a local retiree who is very active in the literary society and wrote a biography of a 20th-century bureaucrat/writer, but he probably doesn't know any more about 16th-century history than anyone else. If there's some proof of this narrative, it should be possible to find someone referencing it directly. Those references may exist but not be digitized, which is frustrating, but until one is found I think the page has to treat the contemporary evidence we do have as definitive.] (]) 22:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Uh huh sure, but cant we use those sources for sections on the article that aren't related to the events of the battle, like the ] ] and ] sections? After all, some information that is still in the infobox was sourced from those sources. I have also found a book about the history of the city can it be used? (Hijri dates are used in that book) ''']]''' 07:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I don't know anything about these publications. Judging from the material itself, the authors do not possess any level of technical expertise and are not basing their judgements either on any form of evidence, or on any previously published scholarship. ] (]) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I have been really busy these last few days and wasn't able to respond to Abo Yemen. Thank you for your participation in this debate. ] (]) 22:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@] If you're able, I think it would be a great contribution if you could copy out and translate whatever description is in , which is the only primary source I could find, and then put it in a quote box or etc. as appropriate for a primary source. I know the letter contains relevant info from but it doesn't seem to have been published anywhere and I don't read even modern Portuguese. It's probably just a few words but we may get lucky! ] (]) 00:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Hi, @]. Unfortunately I am not able to translate the letter itself, since it is very difficult to even understand which words were used, I can only go by the catalog description you gave, which translated into English looks like this:
			::::::"Number 41 - Letter from Henrique de Macedo to the King, written from Goa on October 22, 1523, states his services in India , his campaign with D. Luis to the strait, capturing Al-Shihr, and how important it would be to conquer Diu." ] (]) 15:55, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{tq|1=capturing Al-Shihr}}<br>hm didn't you say the goal was just to sack the city and go? ''']]''' 16:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I said it was a strong possibility, considering that it was very normal for those types of Portuguese actions of piracy against Muslim coastal cities and the fact that Al-Shihr was a very common spot for the Portuguese to plunder.
			::::::::I also stated that if there was a reliable source that stated otherwise, I would accept it. ] (]) 20:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Well now we know that this isn't the case and the portuguese had failed to capture the city ''']]''' 05:30, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Source? If you are going to send those Arabic amateur essays please don't even bother responding. ] (]) 15:17, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{outdent|8}} {{tq|1="Number 41 - Letter from Henrique de Macedo to the King, written from Goa on October 22, 1523, states his services in India, his campaign with D. Luis to the strait, '''capturing Al-Shihr''',}} (Never happened btw) {{tq|1= and how important it would be to conquer Diu."}}<br> ''']]''' 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::"Never happened" isn't actually a source. Just a reminder that because they captured the city doesn't mean they retained it. ] (]) 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::You cannot prove something that didn't happen. Do you have any source saying that they captured the city? ''']]''' 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::All of your sources said that they sacked the city, but nothing about capturing it was mentioned ''']]''' 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Yes, I do. The Portuguese captured the city and sacked it. Once again, this doesn't mean they retained it. ] (]) 18:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::capturing a city != sacking it <br>your initial sources said nothing about the Navy capturing the city but the letters say that they captured it. Something must be wrong here ''']]''' 18:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Once a gain they captured the city and THEN sacked it. Keep in mind that doesn't mean they kept control of it. I am not going to repeat this again. ] (]) 00:07, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Now show me where in your sources does it say that ''']]''' 06:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::You were just denying that this happened after I showed you the sources, why are you asking this now? Didn't I just give them above? ] (]) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{outdent|7}} What sources about capturing a city did you show me? Those letters clearly show that the portuguese wanted to capture the city and they failed as we have no proof of them being there after the battle was over. But did they lie to whoever they sent this letter to? ''']]''' 07:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Look bro, the letter doesn't state they failed, it states the Portuguese captured the city and then sacked it. For the fourth time, this DOES NOT mean they retained control of the city. ] (]) 19:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@] so we can finish with and archive this, can we use those sources in anything other than the battle section? like the other sections that I've mentioned being deleted here ] <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]&nbsp;] (])</span> 15:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::In general I think we've established that there is currently no way of including any claim which cannot be directly traced to the 16th-century Portuguese histories or the Hadrami chronicles (which agree). This is because no source cites any other form of evidence, and because it represents the approach of English-language academic books. I have not reviewed the details and I do not know which claims qualify, but you're free to add anything you can find in an appropriate source. ] (]) 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::not even a legacy section like the one you proposed? <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]&nbsp;] (])</span> 06:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== RfC: Geni.com, MedLands, genealogy.eu ==
	*'''Option 3''' unless we develop a special method for covering the prior definition of antisemitism (roughly, against Jews) versus the one currently held by some institutions (roughly, against Jews or Israel) with clarity. Certainly, we do not try to conflate then 1820 definition of the term "gay" with its 2020 usage, and would offer clarifying text wherever there might be confusion. To suggest that it is a mere clarification is wrong. Even before the existence of the state of Israel, large portions of religious Jewery resisted the effort because the religious conditions for that nation to arise had not yet been met. We should no more hold that what one set of Jews feel is important to Judaism is right and another wrong than we should hold that one set of Christians are the true Christians. -- ] (]) 14:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			<!-- ] 18:01, 23 February 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1740333680}}
	*:Nat, what does this have to do with this specific source’s reliability? The implication of what you’re saying is that any source that uses any definition of antisemitism is generally unreliable. ] (]) 07:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			{{rfc|hist|bio|rfcid=5DC5768}}
	*::If I say "I describe someone as Canadian if they are from Canada or if they have red hair", then I am not a reliable source on identifying Canadians, for there are certainly Canadians with red hair, but that doesn't make it appropriate identification. The same goes for "I describe someone as antisemitic if they are against Jews or are against the state of Israel." ADL may be a reliable source for identifying ADL-branded Antisemitism-2.0 (for whatever good that does us), but they are not a reliable source on actual antisemitism as the term has been traditionally used. -- ] (]) 18:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			The following genealogy sources are currently considered ] at ] (A), or in repeated inquiries at ] (B and C):
	*'''Option 1''' Highly reliable on this specific subject matter, and per {{u|BilledMammal}}, the evidence to contest their notability in this area simply doesn't exist - while many, many sources treat them as authoritative, to the contrary. '''] ]''' 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			* '''A: Geni.com'''
	*'''Option 1''' The ADL has a long track record for tracking antisemitism and, bias notwithstanding, its factual record is excellent as observed above. Criticism has tended to be partisan and politically motivated. ] (]) 14:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			* '''B: Medieval Lands / MedLands by Charles Cawley'''
	*'''Option 2/3 with regard to Israel, Option 1 otherwise''' per my above vote. Like I said, I can't exactly trust them on I/P-related matters, but I've seen no indication of unreliability regarding antisemitism originating from other areas. ] ] 19:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			* '''C: genealogy.eu / genealogy.euweb.cz by Marek Miroslav'''
	*'''Option 1''' per My very best wishes and Vegan416. No evidence that it is making false claims, and it's widely used by other reliable sources. ] (]) 21:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			:Long after being listed / labelled generally unreliable, these unreliable sources are still being (re-)added to hundreds to tens of thousands of articles.
	*'''Option 2 on antisemitism not in I-P context''': OK to use with attribution. ADL is not reliable to use or antisemitism in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Their that "There is no argument anymore that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, that is as plain as day" is quite concerning. Thus I'd say '''Option 3 on antisemitism in the I-P context''' Even so, ADL remain a reliable source for their opinions on antisemitism in the I-P conflict, wherever such opinions are ].''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 22:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
			:They should be:
	*'''Option 3''' for any ADL views on the I/P conflict and on campus antisemitism. ] which has an intimate capillary knowledge of and familiarity with Jewish students on over 800 campuses has just failed the ADL's report giving it an F-grade.(Andrew Lapin, ] 12 April 2024. ] (]) 15:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Option 1: listed as ]''' (change nothing to A; add B and C at ] as such)
	*:When you read the Forward article beyond the title you see that those Hillel people don't disagree with ADL regarding the rise in campus antisemitism. They just wish to emphasize that Jewish life continue to thrive on the campuses despite the rise in antisemitism, and they think ADL should have factored this into the "grade" it gave different campuses. So this isn't really relevant to the reliability ADL assessment of the rise in antisemitism per se. ] (]) 15:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Option 2: ]''' (list them as such at ])
	*'''Option 4''' it seems to smear ''every'' critic of Israely policies with an "antisemitic" allegation: No thanks. ] (]) 22:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Option 3: ]''' (not mutually exclusive with option 1 or 2)
	*'''Option 3/4''' ADL correctly points out some genuine cases of antisemitism, like whatever Kanye was talking about last year, but generally speaking it just uses it as a word to silence Palestinians. I'm leaning towards deprecate, but it could occasionally be used when all other sources fail. ]&nbsp;(he/him&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 15:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
			] (]) 23:38, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3 or 2 for antisemitism that has no connection to I/P''' (option 3 for anything connected to I/P), per Loki and Rhododendrites (and particularly echoing Rhododendrites's point that the setup of this RFC, where I/P is a separate section, suggests this section is indeed only about antisemitism unrelated to I/P). As others discussed in the preceding section, they're not reliable on I/P issues, and because they often regard disagreement with Israeli policies as antisemitic, I'm not sure setting a different "number" for their coverage of antisemitism vs I/P is workable, because they ''present'' (unreliable) I/P reporting ''as'' reporting on antisemitism: probably it's best to say option 3, which is—after all—only "generally" unreliable, and let case-by-case discussions evaluate instances where they're actually reporting on antisemitism. (I use "reporting" loosely here, understanding that they're not a news organization filing news reports, but an advocacy group.) ] (]) 18:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' they are broadly cited by almost any organisation, and are often considered the baseline for any claims about or regarding antisemitism, considered equivalent to a newspaper of record when it comes to tracking and reporting antisemitism and related conduct. No significant issue regarding their factual reporting has been shown, and all opinions should (as always) be attributed. On the topic of antisemitism, they are rightly considered one of the prototypical case of a civil rights group which can be cited for facts, and neither their reporting nor any conduct seems to have disqualified them from „generally reliable.“ ] (]) 21:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:On a more general notes, there seem to be a few de-facto duplicate votes that ignore the (in my opinion, prudent) distinction between the subject areas, which is unfortunate. ] (]) 21:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::In ], including any who posted such {{tq|duplicate votes}}, to use your words, I would suppose that they consider the ADL's coverage of the topics sufficiently interrelated that similar reasons and similar assessments of reliability apply to all three. While I also think it was prudent to make separate surveys for each topic area, I can see how an editor might arrive at thinking they are interrelated to such an extent. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 21:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I can understand how they have reached such as assessment, and you’re right about AGF, thank you. That being said, I would consider such a vote to not be best practice even with a degree of good will far beyond AGF. As you have given me an opportunity to clarify, I would add the following: this sentiment applies to a significantly lower degree to all whose arguments in vote 1 were unrelated to I/P or Jewish self-determination (construed broadly), but to the inherent nature of the organisation. This category, by my reading of the votes and arguments, seems to be the smaller group, but I could be wrong. ] (]) 22:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per Vegan416, Alaexis, and others. They are highly reliable, broadly cited, and have an excellent factual record on this subject area. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 22:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. Extremly reputable organisation. Obviously those designated as racists, or their friends, are noisy regarding the classification by organisations such as the SPLC or the ADL, however such noise expected. The ADL is very reputable. ] (]) 05:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3/4, particularly when related to Israel or Zionism'''. Maybe an exception can be made to categorize it as option 2 when wholly unrelated to Israel or Zionism. The ADL's partisan stance on the war and its conflating of opposition to Israel with antisemitism, something that's caused quite a stir within the ADL with a number of high-profile resignations in protest of the direction their leader is taking the organization. They're not simply an objective academic watchdog organization, they are an activist organization and that includes explicitly pro-Israel activism. As others have mentioned, the organization now counts ''all'' protests supportive of Palestine as "antisemitic incidents." <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 20:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:The last sentence is simply false. they explain what their criteria are. Only protests with certain slogans like “by all means necessary” and “from the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free” were considered antisemitic. *You* may not consider them antisemitic but a lot of Jewish people do and so using such criteria is not an example of the lack of reliability. ]<sub>]</sub> 20:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::All pro-Palestinian protests feature "from the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free." ] (]) 20:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::Sorry, the logic here appears to be: "the ADL is right because a lot of Jewish people agree with it" – a rather peculiar bar for reliability that, no? ] (]) 21:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::"Only Palestinian protests where anti-Zionist slogans are used" is all Palestinian protests. Again, the conflation of antisemitism and anti-Zionism is at the heart of why the ADL is disreputable on this issue. "A lot of Jewish people" is not a source. A lot of Jewish people I know think the idea that anti-Zionism is antisemitism is itself extremely antisemitic as this carries with it the implication that Jewish people who oppose Israel are not "good Jews" or that they are "self-hating", an accusation they're frequently on the receiving end of. I share their view. But my anecdotal reference to unspecified members of a group who feel a certain way is no more an indicator of reliability or lack thereof than yours. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 21:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::The use of the IHRA definition with all of it’s , is disputed but clearly not fringe (as it is adopted by governments and many organisations). Assuming that what you criticise does not go beyond IHRA, it can definitely be valid criticism, but it’s also clearly not impactful when it comes to reliability. ] (]) 21:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::I believe that it has been pointed out before that the already controversial IHRA appendix does not expressly make the conflation. It is merely sufficiently broad and ambiguous that it can be one interpretation. The ADL goes well beyond the IHRA appendix into full, open and unashamed conflation. ] (]) 22:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::This 2 examples of antisemitism appear explicitly in the appendix to IHRA:
	*:::::* Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
	*:::::* Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
	*:::::] (]) 22:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::So the first is incredibly ambiguous. What does it even mean? How can a state be racist? People, laws, ideologies and institutions can be racist, but a state is an inanimate abstract construct. People might label a state as racist rhetorically, but actually they mean one of these other things. And what has that got to do with self-determination? The labels above have little to nothing to do with self-determination except as a very convoluted corollary. As for the double standard malarkey, that has simply grown great wings of irony in the most recent conflict where the only apparent double standard is that Israel is held to almost no international legal standard by the international community. Are Western nations then antisemitic by inference by treating Israel with a preferential double standard? You can see why people call the definition unworkable. ] (]) 21:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::The IHRA is not fringe, but it is very much controversial. If an organization was relying on the IHRA to categorize antisemitic incidents, we would have to attribute it any time they did that. However, the ADL's definition of antisemitism, as already mentioned, goes beyond simply saying that certain kinds of especially harsh criticism of Israel are antisemitic, and into saying that essentially all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. ] (]) 22:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::That can be the case, but the issues disputed here are most likely covered even just by the IHRA. We should attribute statements where appropriate anyway, but the IHRA definition is (likely) the most common one, and there is no reason to attribute it more than any of the other ones. ] (]) 22:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::Also, in general (as in: with exceptions), the ADL makes a destination between criticism of specific government actions/ policies and the more extreme versions of antizionism in the literal sense (advocating for or justifying violence against Israelis, denying the right of Israel to exist, denying Jewish people the right to self-determination). While you can argue where the line between those is, as has happened with the second slogan and the relevant legal debate in Germany, saying that there isn’t a lot of the latter at many of the rallies would have to be substantiated rather well. ] (]) 22:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::To repeat myself, the IHRA is very much controversial. A definition of antisemitism based on it makes that organization's pronouncements regarding antisemitism similarly controversial.
	*::::::If a major paper said that the economy was going to crash based solely on the predictions of ], it doesn't matter that monetarism is not fringe within economics for that pronouncement to be not reliable as a source for whether the economy is going to crash. ] (]) 22:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::That’s would be true in you example, but a more accurate metaphor would be an economics paper based only on a liberal capitalist framework. While there is definitely criticism of liberal capitalism, it’s also the prevailing interpretation by (western) governments and organisations, similarly to IHRA. ] (]) 22:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::We also must recognize that ADL uses terms like "zionism", "denying Israel the right to exist", and "denying Jewish people the right to self-determination" in a fringe way. Everyone would agree that it would be antisemitic to call for the forcible expulsion of the Israeli people to bring about the destruction of Israel. But the ADL goes a step further by arguing that it would be "denying Israel the right to exist" or "denying the Jewish people the right of self-determination" to give the Palestinian people in the occupied territories the right to vote. that it denies Israel the right to exist, and is therefore by its definitions antisemitic, to support the establishment of a ] where all its inhabitants have equal rights and the ability to express themselves through democratic processes. That is stretching the limits of terms like "the right to exist" to argue that it is antisemitic to not prefer that Israel take the form of an ethnostate. That is not a workable definition. That's arguing that advocating for ''change'' is advocating for the destruction of Israel. Such a definition is ''not'' inherently implied by terms like "the right to exist." The IHRA definition has much more flexibility and can be interpreted in more than one way. While both definitions mention the right of self determination and the right for Israel to exist, only the ADL goes the extra mile by defining those terms to mean a very narrow interpretation. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 23:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::::Oh, wow. By the arguments the ADL makes on that page former president of Israel from the Likud party ] would be antisemitic. That's wild. ] (]) 02:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::::I am afraid you completely misunderstand Rivlin's views. https://www.timesofisrael.com/rivlin-proposes-israeli-palestinian-confederation/ ] (]) 05:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::::::That's a relatively recent change and he's been on record multiple times before as supporting a single bi-national state, as is documented extensively in his article. ] (]) 20:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::::::But you kind of missed that in his opinion this state will have only one army - the IDF. The Palestinians won't have an army. ] (]) 08:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::::@], could you cite where they say that such views are antisemitic, and not just wrong? They seem to describe them as unpractical or incompatible with the founding purpose of Israel, but that is pretty close to general consensus. They are also very critical of those advocating for greater Israel with no voting right for Palestinians, so it seems to be a biased but generally accurate and non-fringe view.
	*:::::::::While I don’t fully subscribe to the arguments myself, arguing that a one-state solution could be incompatible with IHRA (unless agreed to voluntarily by Jewish people) is at least not implausible:
	*:::::::::#Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
	*:::::::::#Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
	*:::::::::It is rather hard to avoid both when arguing for a one-state solution without majority support from Israelis.
	*:::::::::Now, in the cited article, the ADL '''does not do that''' (but it’s possible they do elsewhere, where I would personally consider it wrong but non-fringe.) Instead, they make other moral and practical arguments, which are rather commonly made - there is a reason why a one-state solution is a somewhat niche view among both sides. ] (]) 06:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::::For starters, in the article I linked to the ADL argues that proponents of a single-state solution are often nefarious actors dishonestly using advocacy for a democratic multinational state as a cover for their supposed real goal of destroying Israel.
	*::::::::::<u>From the ADL</u>:
	*:::::::::::{{tq|"While '''couching their arguments''' in terms of egalitarianism and justice, proponents of a bi-national state are predominantly harsh critics of Israel, and use this proposal as a vehicle to further their advocacy '''against an independent Jewish state.'''"}}
	*:::::::::::{{tq|"the notion that Palestinians and Jews, who can’t even negotiate a two-state solution, could coexist in one happy state is so ludicrous that '''only the naive or the malicious would fall for it.'''"}}
	*::::::::::This page does not use the term antisemitic directly, but based on the ADL's definitions of antisemitism and zionism, its description of advocates for a democratic binational state as "malicious" actors who oppose "an independent Jewish state" and "couch their arguments in egalitarianism and justice" to further their goal of a world without Israel very clearly shows that the ADL considers such advocates to be antisemites. If an antisemite is someone who does not want Israel to exist in its current form as a state consisting of, by, and for one ethnoreligious group, then someone who wants everyone in its claimed borders to have equal rights would be an antisemite. The fact that this ADL article goes at great lengths to describe proponents of such a solution as anti-Israel bad faith actors only furthers that this is their position. So yes, the ADL absolutely '''does do that.'''
	*::::::::::I can see how one could interpret this as meeting the "claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor", but I also think that's far from the only way to interpret it. I'd like to quote an excerpt from ]'s 2004 ''New York Times'' op-ed to test against the definitions we're discussing.
	*::::::::::<u>Example argument</u>:
	*:::::::::::{{tq|"it is simply the recognition of the uncomfortable reality that Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories already function as a single state. They share the same aquifers, the same highway network, the same electricity grid and the same international borders" neither destroys the Jewish character of the Holy Land nor negates the Jewish historical and religious attachment (although it would destroy the superior status of Jews in that state). Rather, it affirms that the Holy Land has an equal Christian and Muslim character. For those who believe in equality, this is a good thing.}}
	*::::::::::I believe that under the IHRA definition, you could say that Tarazi's argument is simply egalitarian and far from antisemitic. This example argument does not call for the destruction of Israel, rather it argues that Israel is already ''de facto'' the one state, and therefore those who live under that state should all enjoy the same rights. By my reading of the IHRA definition, that's totally okay. But the ADL would strongly disagree.
	*::::::::::Now just to be clear, I'm ''not'' discussing the actual merits of any solution, that'd be way beyond the topic of the discussion. The point I'm making here is that the IHRA definition and the ADL definition are not one and the same. Under the IHRA definition, one could reasonably interpret it as allowing for a democratic Israel-Palestine to exist, while the ADL's definitions obviously define proponents of such a solution as antisemites. These are incompatible definitions. The IHRA definition is already contentious and should be attributed when used, the ADL's shouldn't be used period.
	*::::::::::<b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 20:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::::::I appreciate you taking the time, but you can’t synth your way into assuming that they would have taken the position if they haven’t. The ADL publishes significant amounts of material, if it is rarely or never said to be always antisemitic, that is likely not coincidental.
	*:::::::::::The rest are common criticisms of the one-state-solution (OSS), where you can definitely argue their validity, but which are clearly non-fringe. My reading is that they clarify this so far specifically because not all advocates of a OSS are antisemitic, but neither of our readings is provable or of relevance.
	*:::::::::::Regarding your quote, I would say both readings could be plausible (read: non-fringe). Having said that, the solution would end Israel as we know it and definitely destroy parts of it’s founding purpose, so it is clearly a highly controversial statement, even if I see no proof of it being pre se antisemitic. ] (]) 07:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::::::I do appreciate you taking the time to hear me out and giving thoughtful responses in a civil tone, even if we disagree. I can understand how my argument there would come off as too SYNTHY after rereading it, though I still don't agree that it is for the purpose of this discussion. In the quotes I provided, the ADL still characterizes proponents of the OSS as bad faith actors cloaking their secret real goal of a world with no Jewish state - that alone tells me that the ADL's stance on the OSS goes much too far to be comparable to the IHRA definition, so I don't think it's that SYNTHy for the purpose of this discussion to conclude that in the quotes provided, the ADL already all but called proponents of the OSS antisemites, especially when the things they accuse OSS advocates of being (malicious actors who really just oppose the existence of a Jewish state) are exactly what the ADL itself defines as being antisemitic.
	:::::::::::::Now, if the question at hand were "should we write in Wikivoice in a mainspace article that the ADL calls OSS proponents antisemites?", the answer would be no, of course not, that ''would'' in fact be synthesis. But that is, of course, not the discussion we're having. We are simply looking at the ADL way of defining antisemitism versus the IHRA way of defining antisemitism, specifically as it relates to positions on Israel and Zionism. The whole "is the one state solution considered antisemitic?" side tangent started with the question of "how do terms like 'the destruction of Israel' / 'Israel's right to exist' / 'Right of self-determination of the Jewish people' get defined?" as it's one thing for two definitions to include those terms in definitions of antisemitism, but it's another thing for them to have the same definitions for those terms. The IHRA uses such language in its defining examples of antisemitism, but those terms are themselves in need of defining and the IHRA just leaves it open to interpretation. The ADL's statements on the OSS articulate what the ADL would consider to be an example of denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and according to them, Israelis and Arabs having equal rights in the same borders would be such an example. I think that alone demonstrates the broader point that the ADL definition and the IHRA definition are not one and the same.
	:::::::::::::I think you'll agree that by now we've ] and I have nothing new to say that isn't just the same points rephrased, so I don't intend to add any further comments beyond this one. I only decided to write this reply because I think you made some interesting points that I wanted to respond to. If nothing else, I hope what I said made sense and wasn't just a bunch of incoherent ramblings. Thanks again for being one of the more level-headed editors I've disagreed with in this otherwise heated discussion. Have a good one,
	:::::::::::::<b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 23:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::Thank you for your kind words, I also greatly appreciate us having a polite and productive discussion despite our disagreement. :)
	::::::::::::::I agree that the ADL characterises some opponents of the OSS as bad faith actors (IMO accurately), and I think we can both agree that it’s quite clear that they don’t say (and don’t indisputably mean) all are antisemitic. That isn’t undoubtedly (but is plausibly) in line with the IHRA definition, but even if it weren’t, that style of opposition to the OSS is (no matter what we think of it) clearly non-fringe, at least as far as relevant Jewish and Israeli circles go (and the relevant scientific communities, making it at worst a question of bias). I think we could both write full-length articles on this topic, but as we agree on most verifiable things and disagree on things which are a matter of interpretation, I agree we should leave the poor horse alone, it has been through enough. (In the literal sense, I don’t think either of us is being disruptive)
	::::::::::::::<s>Regarding it being a (hypothetical) fringe view if they called all proponents of the OSS antisemitic, I would probably say it’s “non-fringe but stupid”, but if being stupid in my personal opinion was a criteria for a reduction of reliability, we would run out of sources quite quickly.</s>
	::::::::::::::Having said that, I wanted to again express my gratitude for the thought-out and civil discourse, and cordially invite you to continue this tangent on either of our talk pages should you at some point be interested in having this discussion. ] (]) 21:31, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1 (with 2 consideration)'''. I refer to my first comment in the top section as my general commentary on all items. It seems that there has been some debate as to the ADL's take on matters relating to anti-zionism and anti-semitism. However, that is obviously a matter of serious debate, as well as a plain matter of opinion, and should reasonably fall under the additional considerations already applied in the ADL's perennial sources listings. Echoing my previous sentiment, the only links to RS with issues with The ADL I see in this discussion are The Guardian and The New Republic, which each have opinion considerations in their listings, and dedicated editorial slants toward Israel-Palestine matters. I would need to see a strong consensus from RS publications citing ADL publications and data before giving priority to the majority of sources cited here. ] (]) 21:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3'''. The nature of the subject is such that the ADL is too politicised to be a useful source even outside incidents directly related to the Israel/Palestine conflict.--] (]) 21:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3: '''{{TQ|ADL is too politicised to be a useful source even outside incidents directly related to the Israel/Palestine conflict.}} having said that, the ADL is a prominent US advocacy group, whose attributed opinions have considerable weight and will often be included as such, but as a source to be rendered in WPVOICE, they should '''not''' generally be used. I find the question somwhat bizarre for several reasons. There is always a subjective element to whether any words or any action are anti-semetic ''(racist, mysogynistic etc)'' since making the assessment has to do both with assessing impact and motive and ADL exists primarily to highlight anti-semetism and increasingly as an advocate for Israel and its actions, so what neutrality should we even expect from them? They don't exist primarily to report, so their words and deeds have to be seen in that context. Is any advocacy group ultimately a RS for anything other than the positions they advocate for? ] (]) 14:46, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. The ADL is respected and used by media and scholarship. It is the most respected source out there on antisemitism, and is a very strong source for other hate groups. ---Lilach5 (]) ] 04:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' per K.E Coffman and whatever it was or has been, it is at present an actor working for a side in war (see also the Guardian article). ] (]) 15:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3 or 4''' The ADL has fallen in with the Israeli propaganda line that claims that opponents of its war on Gaza, in which they've committed massive war crimes, are antisemitic (Netanyahu recently called U.S. student protestors an "antisemitic mob"). This is an ugly slur against the vast majority of protestors, who are motivated by a belief in human rights and are not antisemites. At this point I don't think ADL is reliable for other allegations of antisemitism in the U.S., even when they're not directly related to the Israeli-Gaza war, because the war gives the ADL a reason to want to greatly exaggerate the current extent of antisemitism in the country. ] (]) 16:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:@]
	*:Do you have a source where ADL describes the opponents of Israeli war in Gaza (or any Israeli government policy) as anti-semitic?
	*:{{talkquote|"The ADL has fallen in with the Israeli propaganda line that claims that opponents of its war on Gaza, in which they've committed massive war crimes, are antisemitic"}}
	*:If you can bring proof that ADL equates criticism of Israeli government with anti-semitism, that would discredit this organization in public. ] (]) 12:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::See : {{tq|On January 9, for example, a few weeks after a large pro-Palestinian demonstration in New York City, Greenblatt released a report listing over 3,000 antisemitic incidents committed in the three months since the war in Gaza began. “U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in Israel,” warned the ADL press release. “The American Jewish community is facing a threat level that’s now unprecedented in modern history,” said Greenblatt. “It’s shocking.” As expected, the ADL report drew media coverage around the country.... But much of the report was hype. Rather than attacks against Jews due to their religious or ethnic identity, many of the cited “incidents” were actions directed against Israel to protest the conduct of its war in Gaza—incidents the ADL would later admit made up nearly half of the total. “Overall, a large share of the incidents appear to be expressions of hostility toward Israel, rather than the traditional forms of antisemitism that the organization had focused on in previous years,” noted Arno Rosenfeld in ''The Forward''. Many of the incidents were simply protests by civil rights organizations such as Students for Justice in Palestine.}} ] (]) 12:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*::They are that they consider all anti-Zionism and some "harsh criticism of Israel" to be anti-semitic. ] (]) 12:43, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Are you sure you are reading this correctly? Because to me, they are rather clear that some is and some isn’t. ] (]) 12:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*::::They definitely aren't saying that all criticism of Israel period is antisemitic (because that would be absolutely absurd and get them rightly laughed at) but they do think that all opposition to Zionism is antisemitic. Direct quote: {{tq|certain forms of anti-Israel rhetoric and activism delegitimize Israel and its existence, and are antisemitic when they vilify and negate Zionism}}. ] (]) 19:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::And that sounds pretty close to a best-practice-definition of IHRA (or 3D, if we are at that point), so clearly non-fringe. There is a difference between disagreement and vilification. ] (]) 20:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::Nope, ] "definition" is one paragraph that no-one would disagree with, the trouble starts with all the so-called "examples" (3D is another version of the examples). ] (]) 21:14, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::The examples are generally considered part of the definition in the informal uses (and often in the formal use), and clearly necessary based on the long and fruitless discussions about in regards to what is within or outside the scope above and below.
	*:::::::You are free to disagree with them (and 3D), or to prefer another definition, but IHRA is socially mainstream, despite some criticism it received. ] (]) 21:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::The WP article gives the definition in the first para of the lead, it is one para. ] (]) 21:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::::Yes, but that is often not the relevant part when it comes to application ] (]) 21:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Bring ] from ADL where it explicitly equates anti-zionism or criticism of Israeli government (or any of its policies) with anti-semitism. ] (]) 12:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*::::In order to deprecate a source because it routinely acts as a propaganda arm of a certain government (as was recently done for RyTMarti), we don't need to have an explicit quote from that source admitting that their aim is to discredit opponents or adversaries of that government. ] (]) 13:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::I would prefer to see what policy basis there is to disqualify a source because it publishes biased but not inaccurate content (I note that taking a mainstream but controversial position on the definition of antisemitism doesn't make a source inaccurate). As far as I know, there is none, and ] tells us that bias isn't a reason to disqualify them.
	*:::::Also, what is RyTMarti? ] (]) 13:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::From an academic position, the ADL's position is fringe, not mainstream - much as religious adherents, despite their numbers, do not define the mainstream; scholars do. ] (]) 14:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::we're going around in circles now, but there are plenty of examples of scholars, including very respected ones, treating the ADL as reliable, including those given in the Discussion sub-section below. ] (]) 11:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	*::::@]: This has been covered before, in several discussions. Greenblatt even that if they didn't agree with the conflation, the ADL wasn't the place for them. ] (]) 13:25, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::: That's a quote from the head of the ADL, speaking as the head of the ADL, posted on the ADL's own site and released as a press release. I reckon that counts as equating anti-zionism with antisemitism. -- ] (]) 14:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::How things change. That hat tips Hillel, but Hillel has since , ironically for this very “massive oversimplification” of antisemitism on campuses. ] (]) 15:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' highly preferred, will accept '''Option 2'''. ADL by definition is a campaign organisation, and thus cannot be sourced for objective facts. If the information sought falls close to their campaign themes, their bias becomes extreme. Conseqeuntly, in my view ADL should not be used as a source for any information related to antisemtism other than what's allowed by ]. — ]&nbsp;] 15:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*:so your position is that no campaign organisation should be treated as a reliable source on the topics on which it campaigns? ] (]) 11:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' per the above responses from users Iskandar323, NightHeron and ]. ADL is an extremely partisan ethno-religious organization which advances the notion that anti-zionism is a form of anti-semitism. In its article on "", ADL explicitly describes anti-zionism as a form of anti-semitism:
	:{{talkquote|"'''Anti-Zionism is antisemitic, in intent or effect, as it invokes anti-Jewish tropes,''' is used to disenfranchise, demonize, disparage, or punish all Jews and/or those who feel a connection to Israel, '''equates Zionism with Nazism and other genocidal regimes,''' and renders Jews less worthy of sovereignty and nationhood than other peoples and states."}}
	: ADL CEO ] adamantly claimed in March 6 2024:
	:{{talkquote|"'''Let’s make this very clear: anti-Zionism is antisemitism.'''"}}
	: (source: https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-ceo-jonathan-greenblatt-delivers-2024-state-hate-never-now)
	: ADL censors its own staff-members who oppose the conflation of anti-zionism with anti-semitism:
	: {{talkquote|"'''In response to the dissent, Greenblatt said that if staffers disagreed with his position that anti-Zionism is antisemitism, “then maybe this isn’t the place for you.”'''"}} (Source: "", "'']''" magazine, 3 January 2024)
	: ADL's main agenda is to target pro-Palestinian activists, in tacit collaboration with the anti-semites of America, in favour of Israel:
	: {{talkquote|"According to the first former ADL staffer, Greenblatt is “waging war on pro-Palestinian activists, and if a rabid antisemite like Elon Musk is willing to try to ban , Jonathan is willing to tolerate that.”"}} (Source: "", "'']''" magazine, 3 January 2024)
	: ADL's main targets are human rights organizations and civilian activists. It falsely inflates the number of anti-semitic incidents in USA, by labelling the activities of these groups as "anti-semitic", while ignoring the crimes of far-right extremists. (Source: "", "'']''" magazine, 31 January 2024)
	: According to Greenblatt, it is even "anti-semitic" to say "Free Palestine":
	: {{talkquote|"'''“Saying ‘free Palestine’ to a Jewish person out of context is antisemitism, plain and simple,” responded Greenblatt.'''"}} (source: "", "'']''", 27 June 2023)
	: Articles of ADL are full of praise for ], who is also a shameless . On the other hand, ADL published a against Jewish academic ] in 2005, accusing him of fomenting "anti-semitism" due to his criticism of Zionism.<br>
	: It is clear that ADL is a discredited hyper-partisan zionist lobby group that smears and abuses individuals, activists and academics across the world who criticize Israeli government and its policies. American magazine "'']''" published an article 2022, which vehemently denounced ADL for "spreading misleading information about contemporary antisemitism." (source: "", "'']''" magazine, 8 December 2022)<br><br>
	: So, in my opinion, ADL is not a reliable source and it should not be cited in[REDACTED] at all on any issue related to anti-semitism. If other editors can demonstrate that this website advances conspiracy theories in the flavour of organizations like "]", "]", etc. I'd support the '''deprecation''' of this site in its entirety. ] (]) 17:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	::Not to defend Greenblatt generally, but he didn't say "Free Palestine" was antisemitic, he said that saying it to a Jewish person out of context was antisemitic.
	::In context, it certainly wasn't out-of-context, since he was talking about people tweeting it at him specifically, and he's the head of a major Zionist organization. But it's not an absurd claim in the abstract, since it's seemingly conflating random Jewish people with the Israeli state. ] (]) 19:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	::It is not the case that the ADL articles are "full of praise" for Netanyahu. It seems that there is no mention of him on their site since 2018 and the most recent piece resembling praise is from 2016. But all of this demonstrates that the ADL is biased and has an overly expansive definition of antisemitism, not that it misuses facts such that it "should not be cited in[REDACTED] ''at all'' on ''any issue related to'' anti-semitism". ] (]) 11:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::Sources which are considered "]" by wikipedia, can possibly be cited by editors in limited situations with attribution. My view is that ADL is not a credible source and I recommend editors to not cite this low quality source on issues related to anti-semitism. It isn't just biased, but it's also overtly propagandistic. ADL engages in public libel against individuals and academics through it's false allegations. Let's not forget that ADL is a core component of the cluster of organizations that form the ].<br><br>
	:::Readers can be informed of anti-semitism and it's history through several other sources. ADL's Americanized narratives are unhelpful and full of misinformation. For example, I dont think ADL cares about giving an accurate documentation of pre-WW2 Euro-American anti-semitism. They are focused just on blindly defending zionism, and misinforming their pro-Israeli audience with revisionist history. There are several civil society groups that document anti-semitism in an academic manner. ] (]) 16:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::I think that is the best argument I’ve read in this discussion. People who are voting 1 in this RfC are missing the point that it’s not the fact that the ADL is popular or ''considered'' reputable by so-and-so, it’s the fact that it’s not an academic or impartial source. ] (]) 07:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 4''', an advocacy source that has long since ceased bothering to maintain even the barest patina of objectivity; conflating separate concepts, lying, and misdirection have become their norm. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 12:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' after having read the above, and particularly swayed by users Chetsford, Hydrangeans, and Levivich, the ADL has sadly lost their way on being an encyclopedic RS for this topic area. Ultimately, at a commonsense level, when I see how extreme they have become on the Palestinian issue (above), it is not surprising. ] (]) 08:58, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''', an advocacy organization should have a fairly spotless and uncontroversial record to qualify as a source on its own. As has been demonstrated above, ADL doesn't really qualify. Also, I don't really see special qualifications in style "unreliable when related to Israel" usable. Whether their standards of reporting antisemitism are reputable is very much a "yes or no" question, "sometimes" simply means "no".--] (]) 21:37, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' morphing defnitions to serve an aganeda is clarly unrealiable—] 19:02, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 2/3''' Seems reliable for antisemitism definitions if its not about Israel/Palestine. Anything Israel-Palestine adjacent, ADL has problematic issues ] (]) 21:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' For topics unrelated to Israel and Zionism, '''option 3''' for topics related to Israel and Zionism. The ADL still seems to be reliable for general antisemitism. However, with topics related to Israel and Zionism, my comments in set 1 above still apply: pervasiveness of bias directly impacting the factuality of the source makes a source unreliable. ] (]) 03:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' - The ADL is widely viewed as a highly credible source on the issues it works on (akin to suggesting SPLC is not credible on hate groups or HRC is not credible on LGBT issues). It is generally reliable which is why it is ] which, per ], is "evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts". ] (]) 22:55, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1 or 2 for anti-Semitism not relating to I/P''', otherwise per above, it's Option 2 or 3. ADL remains bias towards their interpretation of antisemitism, as you would expect from any advocacy group, so requires attribution, but I don't believe it's generally unreliable or should be depreciated. Their research centres have correctly labeled neo-Nazis and others as antisemites, when other RS were too lazy to do the research themselves, so their use as a source remains very necessary. ] (]) 12:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' (''always'' use attribution and seek corroboration from other sources where possible) for antisemitism unrelated to Israel, broadly interpreted. '''Option 3 or 4''' for antisemitism in the context of Israel, broadly interperted. It's clear form the evidence presented in this discussion that they will happily label black as white if it benefits (in their view) the cause of the Israeli government. ] (]) 16:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Additional considerations apply''': Per my comment below. ] ] 16:41, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	'''Option 1''' per BilledMammal, Mistamystery and Coretheapple. ] (]) 11:30, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''', because of I/P considerations. Typically, the further the ADL's analysis get from the I/P morass, the more reliable they are on the issue of anti-semitism. However, this means it would be an Option 2, because it's a mix of Option 1 when it comes to domestic anti-semitism but Option 3 when it comes to foreign policy. ''']''' (]) 17:17, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''': They are a political activist organization with an agenda. They are not neutral journalists or scholars or historians, but people trying to actively shape society. No, they should not be cited even for anti-semetism. If their views are covered by the mainstream press, and are relevant to an issue, they can be cited as a viewpoint, in the same way a story may cover an event and the views of any organization or activist group. ] (]) 17:59, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			=== Background (Geni.com, MedLands, genealogy.eu) ===
	=== Part 3: hate symbol database ===
			* A: See "Geni.com" at ].
	<!-- ] 01:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1715475679}}
			* B: See ], in particular ], where this RfC for the 3 sources in question was prepared together with @]. The other sources discussed there fall outside the scope of this RfC.
	What is the reliability of the ]'s ?
			* C: See ] (Medieval Lands by Charles Cawley) of May 2023 (also initiated by me, with ActivelyDisinterested's assistance). ] (]) 23:38, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1: ]'''
	* '''Option 2: ]'''
	* '''Option 3: ]'''
	* '''Option 4: ]'''
	] (]) 00:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	====Survey (ADL:hate symbols)====		=== Preliminaries ===
			:Probably need to add the website to the list of unreliable sources. It also uses Misplaced Pages articles which would be ]. --] 23:45, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	* '''Option 2'''. The ADL's database of hate symbols is generally reliable but only for the narrow use case of identifying if a symbol is used by hate groups. Other background information on symbols in the database is not reliable because the ADL does not correct the background information in its entries even when clear factual errors are pointed out to it. ] (]) 00:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			::AD and I have decided to limit ourselves to these three sources for now in order to prevent a ]. But it could be a good follow-up. ] (]) 23:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1'''/'''Option 2'''. Reliable for whether something is a hate symbol, additional considerations apply for the historical background of the hate symbol - generally, we should prefer sources focused on the historical background. ] (]) 00:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::That reminds me: maybe I should just have three separate subsections for Survey per source? That would make the voting process much easier. The voting format I'm proposing might be confusing. ] (]) 23:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	* '''Option 2''' in the way described by ]. RS source the database for basic facts (e.g. , , , etc.), therefore, we must accept the database as a reliable source for basic facts. ] (]) 01:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::PS: Done. Better now before the first vote comes in. ] (]) 23:55, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' in the sense that when we say e.g. ] is generally reliable, we're not necessarily saying it's reliable for some biomedical claim it makes in the course of its advocacy. Likewise the ADL is an authority on extremism, hate speech, etc. This list is not an ideal source for, say, the ancient history of a symbol before it was adopted by some extremist group, but can be used for the fact that it's been adopted by that extremist group (and how that group uses it). I.e. reliable for its area of expertise, which is the primary value of the hate symbols projects. In other words, what I said . &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 02:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''': Generally reliable. As per Rhododendrites. ] (]) 07:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)		Can you clarify for us why these sites are being grouped together? I'm only familiar with Geni. ] (]) 00:13, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' at the end of the day ADL is a primary source with many controversies, any hate symbols data should be at least verified by secondary RS reporting on the matter. ] (]) 09:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:It's a primary source for a claim such as "The ADL considers x a hate symbol". It's a secondary (or tertiary if using other secondary sources) source for any claims we might make about the symbol itself. ] (]) 11:11, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option <s>2</s> 3''' A year ago I would have said Option 1 here but the poor standards of judgment the ADL has shown regarding Israeli violence in Palestine has weakened its reputation across the board. Attribution and avoidance of wiki-voice is required. Even for this. ] (]) 09:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::Revising my !vote based on further discussion. ] (]) 13:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1''' within the area of specialty, '''Option 2''' otherwise: the identification is generally without major issues and used by others, but the criticism regarding background errors and comparable issues was not adequately addressed, as per Rhododendrites. ] (]) 10:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option <s>2 or</s> 3:''' The ADL has some clear inaccuracy on the fine detail of hate symbols – not least on their origins and symbology – but appears to be relied on as a source for the basic identification of symbols that have been used/misused by hate groups. For information on the symbols themselves, it should not be a source of first choice, with it seemingly conducting flawed primary research then presented in a database without any details on authorship or the referenced sources. ] (]) 10:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Modifying vote based on subsequent discussion. There appears to be far more weighing in against usage for this purpose than for it – to the extent that one does indeed have to ask the question of why use it as at all? ] (]) 14:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' Because of the issues with some of their commentary on certain symbols being inaccurate, as noted in the previous discussion. The more specific in detail and history they get, the more likely they are to introduce errors. So usage of their hate symbol database should be careful and, preferably, backed up by an additional separate source. ]]<sup>]</sup> 14:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' the database can be used to identify something ''as'' a hate symbol. It should not be used for information on the symbol’s history or deeper meaning. ] (]) 16:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' Attribution seems best, since asserting that something '''is''' a hate symbol is different to stipulating the use of it by some persons or a group.] (]) 17:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2 or 3''' Given the discussion above, it is clear ADL does not have a reputation for honesty and integrity. The organisation's CEO Jewish Voice for Peace as an antisemitic hate group. I simply can't see how they can be trusted. ] (]) 17:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' - Tbh I don't really care about this one, I find this issue to be rather silly. I mean, a symbol is a symbol, and it's trivially easy to identify or source when a hate group uses a particular symbol. It's ] obvious that, for example, the crucifix is sometimes used as a hate speech symbol, e.g. when the KKK burns one on a Black person's front lawn. I don't need the ADL to tell me that. I don't need the ADL to tell me that the swastika is sometimes used as a hate speech symbol by, e.g., the Nazis and neo-Nazi groups. "Sometimes used as a hate speech symbol according to the ADL" is a stupid statement, IMO, because that's probably true for a huge amount of symbols, it doesn't really say anything. As has been pointed out, many numbers are used as hate speech symbols by hate groups. So what? More useful would be something like, "The KKK uses the crucifix" or "The crucifix has been appropriated as a symbol by some hate groups such as the KKK," but again, don't really need the ADL for that, as the sources about the hate group will make that point. The ADL's database is a convenient database for collecting and searching for symbols used in hate speech, but I'm not sure it's a very useful RS for Misplaced Pages for this, because there will be better RS available for notable hate groups. Because of ADL's unreliability with regard to Israel and antisemitism, and because it's a lobbying and advocacy group, I think "option 2" is the appropriate option for content outside of I/P or antisemitism, including what it has to say about symbols being used as hate speech (that don't involve Israel or antisemitism; for those, option 3 per my votes above). ] (]) 17:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:I think this issue matters more than you think it does, because "notable hate group" is a much much broader category than "hate group everyone has heard of". The Aryan Brotherhood prison gang is a notable hate group; can you identify their symbols? The ] is a notable hate group; can you identify their symbols without clicking on that link? ] (]) 17:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::What I mean is I can identify their symbols without needing the ADL; I can use sources about Aryan Brotherhood or about Nine Angles in order to identify their ] symbols. ADL's Hate on Display database isn't a ] for this. I think it's a tertiary source that compiles secondary sources. The articles don't cite their sources, or even describe their sources. They don't list authors or a journalistic policy. It's neither scholarship nor journalism. It's not even as reliable as an encyclopedia like Britannica or, well, Misplaced Pages (which at least in theory cites sources). It's basically an unattributed group blog. Arguably ] if it can be shown that, today, ADL is considered an expert on hate speech (that might be a case that could be made). On consideration, I could be persuaded that it's EXPERTSPS on hate speech and hate symbols (so option 1) if someone were to post some recent scholarship citing it as an expert on these topics. ] (]) 17:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2'''. Some usability as a database of basic facts, where it sees significant ] and is quoted authoritatively (and where relatively few high-quality sources have cast doubt on it), but as an advocacy org it should generally be attributed anyway. --] (]) 21:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3 or option 4'''. , I'm surprised that some editors seem eager to look beyond the foundational errors and lack of attribution or editorial oversight from the ADL to give them some kind of honorary pass here: As someone with an actual background in this material, it's painfully obvious that the ADL has ''no idea what they're talking about'', are absolutely not authorities on this matter (despite presenting themselves as such), and are not by any means a reliable source on this topic. ''They're not even trying''. For example, the Wolfsangel as an ""? ''What''? And all this nonsense about every number under the sun being a "hate symbol" because some tiny group somewhere ''may'' have used it ''somewhere'' at ''sometime'', to where even is listed as a "hate symbol"? Alert your local grocery store. Meanwhile, the ADL does not have its finger on the pulse of the topic enough to even provide an entry for the now popular "]", an ''actual'' "hate symbol". It's hard to imagine any organization with the ADL's funding and a podium cobbling together a factually worse and more useless "hate symbol database". Again, and this is important to stress: ''who'' wrote this? Where and what are their sources? ''When'', ''where'', ''who''? We get none of that. Does the author have ''any'' background whatsoever in identifying these topics and their history? The answer seems obvious to me. On Misplaced Pages, it's easy to instead use peer-reviewed sources from ''actual'' experts, where people actually have the slighest clue about what they're talking about and where we can—imagine this—''identify authorship and sources''. This is just F-grade garbage and simply unacceptable. We should absolutely not be 'just accepting' the ADL's word for these important topics. ] (]) 21:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:I agree the information on symbology is murky at best, and should never be the first choice of source on such things anyway ... but the main purpose of the database appears to be to attribute the use of certain symbols to certain groups. For such cases, What's the problem with attributing such an association to the ADL? It's not clear that they're generally unreliable on the basic identification of hate group use cases. ] (]) 21:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*::I don't think the ADL is even reliable for this anymore. They can't get even the most fundamental facts straight and we have no idea who is making these entries, there's zero chronology, and basically just no editorial oversight. We have to do better than using F-tier sources like this. ] (]) 23:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:Bloodofox, while you are right that they misidentify the Wolfsangel as an ancient runic symbol, I don't think you've provided evidence for widespread error. It is absolutely the case that "100%" is used as a hate symbol in a some specific contexts; the ADL is very obviously not claiming that every time "100%" appears it is used in this way. While there are clearly better sources for the history of the Wolfsangel, ADL might actually be the best source on the far right's uses of numbers. Similarly, of course peer-reviewed scholarly content is better than sources without named authors, but not listing sources or naming authors is not always an index of unreliability; for a database produced by a museum or scholarly organisation or for a standard tertiary source used in
	*:educational contexts it's extremely common not to list sources or name authors. ] (]) 11:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::So, again, and this is crucial, we need to know ''who'' wrote this. What are their credentials? And why should we just believe the ADL, given they provide ''zero'' sources and seem to have no editorial standards at all? We get no information here about authorship, not even a contributor list. It ''is'' typical to list authorship, even if with just general credits, in databases and handbooks, because when they're ''authoritative'' they involve ''experts''. Otherwise why believe what they have to say, especially without any kind of references?
	:::The ADL's database was most likely just put together by a contractor or two years ago: A non-expert, most likely a single or more than one contractor with no formal or even notable background in the topic and no tools beyond a few dated books and a Google search (like old versions of ''Misplaced Pages articles''). That's the only way to explain the manifold errors throughout this poor showing of a database.
	:::And yes, the errors are widespread and similarly unacceptable. I could go entry after entry, especially on historic topics. It'd be a sea of red ink. For example, each one of the rune entries has some ridiculous error that even an introductory runology handbook would resolve. A quick look reveals that the ADL's provides butchered reconstructions of Elder Futhark names like "algis" (which should obviously be *''algiz''—with a -Z, the asterisk indicates a linguistic reconstruction) alongside the name "life rune". At no point do they alert the reader that the concept of the "life rune" (as opposed to the historic *''algiz'') is in fact ''not'' ancient but rather an early 20th century invented in völkisch circles, used officialy by Nazi Germany, and then later embraced in neo-Nazi circles. They instead imply this was "appropriated", as if it is just another item from the historic record. Wrong. There's a whole essay one could write about how bad the ADL's entry for even the most mainstream "hate" symbols, like the SS logo, is (for one, The SS logo did ''not'' come directly from Elder Futhark *''sowilo'' but once again völkisch interpretations developing from von List's Armanen futhark, which is why they're typically called ''Sig'' 'victory' runes).
	:::And again, while the ADL is asleep at the wheel on this topic, content to present bad 'research' on symbols from the late 90s, many other new symbols have popped up in common use, like the so-called Black Sun/''Schwarze Sonne'', which we now cover very well here on Misplaced Pages (no thanks to the ADL, whose poor coverage on the topic actually wasted a lot of our time there). While they've probably plundered some handbook on numbers (without attribution), they don't listen other important neo-Nazi symbols, like the so-called Irminsul of Wilhelm Teudt (]). They also seem to be pretty averse to Christian nationalism symbols: there's a huge list they're missing.
	:::Now if the ADL had an expert on staff, we wouldn't be having any of this discussion at all. Again, ''we have to do better than this''. ] (]) 22:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::The database, which is frequently updated but obviously by definition incomplete, says it is produced by ADL's Center on Extremism, which in turn describes itself as employing "a team of experts, analysts, and investigators" (i.e. it's a collective endeavour). Missing entries don't invalidate it; the database itself asks "Are we missing something?" and invites submissions.
	::::The only error you point out re the "life rune" is the transliteration of z as s; ADL does not claim the "life" meaning is ancient (they use the term "so-called" and give the German original). Your interpretation of what they "imply" is beyond what is in the text. Nobody would use this database as a source on its ancient meanings; there's nothing inaccurate in how they report its contemporary usage by hate groups. Similarly, they ''don't'' claim the SS symbol comes "directly from Elder Futhark *sowilo"; they say "The SS symbol is ''derived from'' the "sowilo" or "sun" rune, a character in the pre-Roman runic alphabet associated with the "s" sound." Again, obviously we would prefer a scholarly source for the ancient history of its runic antecedents, but the ADL database is an excellent source for its contemporary usage by hate groups. ] (]) 11:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Yes, a "team of experts" they don't list (!) in a database riddled with basic errors. Sounds legit. No names, no authorship, no credentials. No dates, no chronology, no sources. "Experts" who clearly don't know the history of the symbols they're writing about. Again, you're arguing that we just take the ADL's word for whatever they say, and yet if they can't get the history of a symbol right, you expect that they're getting the rest right?
	:::::The slop the ADL is serving up as an entry on the 'life rune' (see how quickly I informed you of the term's actual history) is unacceptable and you are at this point making excuses for their F-grade fumbling with the historic record. You're saying that we should look the other way at the many errors in these entries related to the historic record and just believe what they say otherwise.
	:::::Should I go start listing more errors? At this point I'm doing the ADL's work for it. Any decent database on the "life rune" will explain where the phrase comes from and how it is was invented in early 20th century völkisch circles. Instead they just slap it next to bungled attempts at presenting reconstructions (from who knows where) as if it were just another historic name. It's not and that's important. The same goes with the SS logo. When discussing the SS logo, it is ''important'' to know that the SS logo differs in origin and use from the historic Elder Futhark S-rune and is instead ''directly from'' völkisch author Guido von List's 'revealed' Armanen runes as published in the early 20th century. This is supposed to be an ''authoritative database'' from ''experts'' but instead it reads like a half-baked contractor job.
	:::::You don't have to make excuses for the ADL. They could get this right at any time by bringing in experts. Just find a source written by actual experts and use that instead. ] (]) 19:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::It feels like you expect a database of contemporary Hate symbols to be a scholarly compendium of their historical origins. You haven’t presented any evidence that the database is inaccurate for what it’s used for: describing how contemporary hate groups use these symbols. I’ll stop commenting on this thread now as any close has more than enough material to make their own judgement. ] (]) 23:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::It's obvious that a.) neither you nor I know who wrote these terrible entries and b.) that they're riddled with errors that any specialist (or anyone who has attended an introductory course on these topics) would immediately detect. If you choose to believe what's in those comedically bad database entries, ancient or modern, that's on you, but they're definitely not suited for English Misplaced Pages or any other project where reliability and authorship matters. ] (]) 23:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:{{tq|And all this nonsense about every number under the sun being a "hate symbol" because some tiny group somewhere may have used it somewhere at sometime, to where even "100%" is listed as a "hate symbol? Alert your local grocery store."}} Given that the ADL explicitly says {{tq|most uses of this symbol are not, in fact, white supremacist in nature}} this is a pretty disingenuous objection. ] (]) 11:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::And we should believe the ADL that "100%" is a ''notable'' "hate symbol" why? Did an expert write this entry? If so, who is that expert? Was it a contractor with Google? When did this become a symbol of notability? Is it still? When was this entry even written? We get absolutely no authorship information and 'just trust the ADL' (or their contractor/s!) simply isn't enough, especially given fundamental errors throughout entries that an authorative body like the ADL should know ''very'' well. ] (]) 22:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' with great obviousness. Certainly there will always be pushback by groups and persons associated with particular symbols, but that isn't relevant here. ] (]) 21:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	::The problem here is even basic accuracy. The ADL's database is riddled with errors and lacks any kind of attribution beyond just "ADL". There's nothing ''reliable'' about it. ] (]) 00:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. Not only are there some major errors with the definitions of hate symbols, ADL appears to be unwilling to address the issue, which is more concerning. ] (]) 09:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:What's the evidence that it's unwilling to address the issue? ] (]) 11:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1 or 2''' Generally reliable per {{u|Rhododendrites}}. Sources treat them as an authority on the subject of hate symbols. '''] ]''' 12:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1 or 2'''. Its hate symbols database is widely used by reliable sources and is treated as an authority on that subject. ] (]) 14:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1/2''' per above. Some slightly shoddy compilation from a web perspective, but again, outside of I/P I haven't seen any evidence pointing to the database being outright unreliable, especially for other forms of antisemitism. ] ] 19:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1/2''' They make mistakes (who does not?) but they seem generally (except for one or two minor issues) reliable, for attributed opinion. ] (]) 11:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' There's some odd nuggets like having ACAB as a hate symbol (which I've never seen any far right extremist ever use) but it's fine for the most part. ]&nbsp;(he/him&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 15:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. After giving the assessment for this topic area thought, this is where I land. This is at best not a ] for the topic of hate groups and hate symbols to borrow Levivich's parsing in this subthread; if this were all, I might've favored Option 2. However, as bloodofox has talked about throughout this and the related thread, that's in the best cases. In other cases, the database is outright inaccurate, and such for extended periods of time. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 21:58, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1 (pref)/2 (alt)''' In general, their database is broadly agreed to be accurate and is widely used by reliable sources.]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 22:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. Extremly reputable organisation. Obviously those designated as racists, or their friends, are noisy regarding the classification by organisations such as the SPLC or the ADL, however such noise expected. The ADL is very reputable. ] (]) 05:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' (pref), '''option 2''' (alt) mostly per Bloodofox. Every few years I am reminded that the ADL's hate symbol list exists and I am then reminded of how bizarre it can be at times. Anything citing only the ADL database should be tagged with ]. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 00:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. I fully agree with Bloodofox's arguments, especially the ones about how it's totally opaque who's writing the entries, what their credentials are, and what sources they use.--] (]) 16:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1/2'''. This database appears to be a respected authority and cited by other reputable sources (as others have linked). There may be inaccuracies about the history of the symbols, but I think there is no problem using it (with attribution) to say something is listed as a hate symbol. ] (]) 22:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''', per concerns expressed in the prior discussion: ], and in the course of this RFC. Insufficient evidence of accuracy & fact checking. --] (]) 04:56, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
	*On a balance, '''2 or 3''', for the reasons already raised in this discussion by Loki and bloodofox, namely the not infrequent inclusion of, and the failure to correct, incorrect information. There are generally better sources we should be citing, anyway. ] (]) 05:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. The ADL is respected and used by media and scholarship. It is the most respected source out there on antisemitism, and is a very strong source for other hate groups. ---Lilach5 (]) ] 04:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' (preferred; would also support option 2 as alternative). I thought I had already commented here, but it seems I did not. While it's certainly appropriate to mention something being the opinion of an advocacy organization, in general, most of the organizations that purport to make lists of "hate symbols" just kind of throw whatever crap in there. This is no exception. For example, if you look at the ADL's "hate symbols database", you will see entries for:
	**1-11
	**9%
	**12
	**13
	**14
	**18
	**23
	**28
	**33/6
	**38
	** ≠
	**
	**
	**
	:I'm sure that somewhere, at some point, some guy wrote the number 12, and what he meant by that was something racist. However, extrapolating from this to "the number 12 is a hate symbol" seems clearly dumb. There are a large number of silly things in this database, and as bloodofox has noted above, they seem to just kind of randomly put stuff in there whenever. I do not think a classification really means much when, of the two-digit numbers between 10 and 40, ten of them (i.e. 30%) are claimed to be hate symbols. Like Levivich said, you don't really need to cite the ADL database to say that "Hitler did nothing wrong" has Nazi overtones -- for stuff that's obvious, this is not needed, and for stuff that ''isn't'' obvious, it is a very bad idea to use some random listicle entry with no attribution or citations. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::The "this whole thing is silly" argument is the one I understand least here. The whole reason these symbols come about is because people don't want to just call themselves "Some White Supremacist Gang" and instead rely on seemingly innocuous names/symbols that already exist in the world. So yes, haha, 14 is just a number -- so silly to call it a hate symbol. And yet, ]. Yes, bowl cuts are funny looking and have a meaning that came before their adoption by white supremacists, and yet Neo-Nazi groups have adopted it as a symbol/name after Dylan Roof and it became a meme among white supremacists on alt-tech sites (e.g. ). Just listing out a bunch of symbols to make a "look at all this stuff they call a hate symbol" argument seems like it misses the point completely, which is to document when symbols have been cooped by a hate group. Sometimes those groups are smalltime prison gangs in Idaho who get a representative number as a tattoo and there's not much more to be said other than document it, and sometimes they're much larger entities or phenomena. The reliability question is not about "do you think this is a worthwhile project" but about whether we can trust that when the ADL says a number was used to represent some white supremacist prison gang, then it was probably used to represent some white supremacist prison gang. Nobody's saying we must rewrite the lead of ] to say "14 is a hate symbol". That's a ]/NPOV argument, not an RS question. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 14:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::So the ] page is instructive in that it notes that while there is some isolated usage of the number 14, more often than not it is combined with "88" in a hateful context. So it's not normally just about the number 14. The point that the list simply contains lots of trivial usage, such as about occasional use of bowl cuts by gangs, really just adds to the sense that this database is not really a good measure of anything. If it can't be used to determine very astutely and in what context a symbol is hateful, where is it useful, when can it be used, and when are its assertions due? I'd just use something better. ] (]) 14:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Okay, but there is no source for any of the stuff that they are saying. The bowl-cut entry doesn't have any citations, or mention any websites, or any people, or anything at all. Neither does the "Anti-Antifa Images" entry: it literally just shows an image that's a "no" symbol drawn around the Antifa flag logo, and says that this is a hate symbol because "White supremacist anti-left (or sinistrophobic) symbology especially targets far left and anarchist activists who have dedicated themselves to actively opposing and exposing white supremacists". No citation, no byline, nothing, it's just silly.<br/><br/>
	:::Including minor usage by irrelevant groups seems to make it even less useful, since at that point you gain nothing at all from knowing it's listed in this database -- it doesn't indicate that something is used mainly as a hate symbol, ''and'' it doesn't even indicate that the thing's use as a hate symbol is notable. It really doesn't seem like this database is the product of somebody trying to produce a useful and relevant scholarly resource (again -- there are no citations or references or bylines) -- I think it is primarily a fundraising tool for a political advocacy organization.<br/><br/>
	:::To me, it's like if the Association of Arborists had a database of every bug that was an imminent threat capable of causing damage to your trees, and included hundreds of obscure species of lichen mites from tiny islands in the Canadian arctic, each saying "we don't really know much about this one, but it ''is'' a bug, and studies have shown that sometimes bugs harm trees". The only thing this proves is that the Association of Arborists wants you to schedule a visit from an arborist. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 02:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::I agree that the database is rather unimpressive, but your original argument seemed to be “I think it’s dumb that these things are considered hate speech lol” in the vein of right-wing influencers. ] (]) 06:39, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Thanks for letting me know. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 20:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::It's not the case that there are "no sources". Sure, there are no sources presented, but it's not plucked out of the air. This is basically a tertiary source, a compendium of user-friendly info, not an academic research article. It's very common for tertiary sources not to include citations. It's produced by the ADL's Center on Extremism, whose staff are experts on extremism. For example, its senior researcher is Mark Pitcavage, who has multiple scholarly articles in peer-reviewed journals. ] (]) 11:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::This sort of thing is the main reason why I phrased my !vote in this section as "reliable for whether a symbol is used by hate groups" and not "reliable for whether a symbol is a hate symbol". I don't think they're a reliable source for the second thing, and I don't even really think they're trying to be a source for that at all.
	::The presence of a symbol in the database should not be taken to mean that it is a hate symbol; even the concept of "hate symbol" is hard to define and ambiguously meaningful. The swastika is probably the most unambiguous hate symbol there is and yet if you look at Tokyo on Google Maps you'll find swastikas everywhere (it's the symbol for "Buddhist temple"). No symbol has meaning without context and so trying to say that ''any'' symbol is a "hate symbol" by citing ''any'' database is not a good idea. ] (]) 20:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
			:Are you disputing that they are unreliable? If so, why? If not, why waste time with this RFC? &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 00:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	: '''Option 3''' - Per arguments by ]. ADL's latest entry to its "hate symbol" database is . How is this a hate symbol?!! I do understand that hate symbols have a context, but do editors want to over-contextualise anything to the point where it gets inserted as a "hate symbol" in wikipedia? There are plenty of reliable sources to understand about hate symbols. An utterly un-academic and partisan front group like ADL is not needed in this topic. ] (]) 12:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
			::These are websites that previous discussions have decided are unreliable. However due to their nature they are continually readded to articles. I believe NLeeuw is looking to get them deprecated or potentially blacklisted to stop that. For a similar instance see ]. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 00:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Once again, “lol so stupid amirite” is not an argument. ] (]) 02:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
			:Read Background: B. ] (]) 00:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::"lol lol amirite amirite" is not an argument either. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 20:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
			::<strike>I can't really see how this survey can change anything for geni.com? I tried clicking on the links but there is a lot to read. I don't want to cause a major distraction but I also notice a remark there that Burkes and Debretts are generally reliable. That's certainly not true for old editions which many editors are tempted to use. But even for new editions, the reliability depends upon the period etc.</strike> --] (]) 11:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean ] (]) 12:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::The entry for 100% concludes with the words "Additionally, caution must be used in evaluating instances of this symbol's use, as most uses of this symbol are not, in fact, white supremacist in nature." It would be insane to insist that all (or most) uses of 100% are using it as a hate symbol. But it's almost equally ridiculous to assume that this means it's never used as a hate symbol. If someone in a white supremacist prison gang has a 100% tattoo, this database (rather than a mathematics textbook) would be a good source to go to to understand why. ] (]) 11:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::@] Reports which are issued solely by ADL are not credible. Read user JPxG's arguments. (in particular JPxG's comment starting with "Okay, but there is no source for any of the stuff that they are saying.")
	:::Also, on the topic of hate symbols. It's clear that ADL isnt reliable at all in this topic. ] (]) 09:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::Taking submissions is fine. There does not seem to be an indication that they publish them without review, which would be the only issue. ] (]) 09:32, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::The "review" of ADL staffers, assuming it occurs, is not credible. ADL cant impose its view on what constitutes hate symbols. ] (]) 10:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Why not? That’s what civil rights groups can do? ] (]) 10:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::ADL acts privately and publishes what its staffers consider as hate symbols without peer-reviewed academic research. ] (]) 10:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::Yes, that is what civil rights orgs tend to do, particularly those that monitor hate. The SPLC does the same with hate groups. ] (]) 10:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::The SPLC isn’t that great either, but for different reasons. In general I think we can and should avoid using advocacy groups like SPLC, ACLU, etc. as objective sources because they have an agenda they’ll advance without much regard to methodology. ADL just goes a step further because their methodology is sketchy as hell and their agenda is based around hardcore zionism. ] (]) 12:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::Would you say the same about ], ], ], etc.? ] (]) 13:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::It depends. First, none of them are ADL (thankfully). Second Amnesty is green at RSP and for others I might take their reports more seriously than other things, etcetera. So not a real argument. ] (]) 13:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::The ] also currently lists the ADL as GREL, I'm not inherently opposed to downgrading all "Tier 1 advocacy/civil rights groups" (even if I think that a disparity between newspaper and orgs is arbitrary), but as long as we downgrade some groups (for being such), we should do so consistently and that includes AI and HRW as well. ] (]) 13:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::That ignores the differences in the reliability of the organizations, so no. ''']''' - 13:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::''I think we can and should avoid using advocacy groups like SPLC, ACLU, etc. as objective sources because they have an agenda they’ll advance without much regard to methodology.'' applies to all 6 (and all other established civil and human rights orgs). My point is that the type or organisation is of little relevance for established, 'respected' and well-known orgs. I believe we should discount all arguments not '''based''' on reliability but on status, not that there can't be a difference between such orgs. ] (]) 13:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::The ongoing discussion shows that ADL is in a quite different place than more respectable orgs. Trying to compare oranges with apples is a no-no. ] (]) 13:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::I'm not saying that it means that the ADL is necessarily reliable, I'm just saying that it's status as a civil rights org shouldn't be a (relevant) factor. ] (]) 13:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Human rights groups employ huge teams of lawyers, and human rights are written into international law. The cataloguing of human rights violations is far more empirical and far less subjective than political advocacy. ] (]) 14:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Human rights groups also generally advocate for more than what is mandated by IHL <s> and rightly so, based on the state of IHL </s>. In the same way, civil rights groups often argue for more than national law mandates, and also often have quite a few of lawyers on staff/retainer. I consider this to be a distinction without a difference for the purpose of establishing reliablity. ] (]) 14:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Taking submissions from randos also appears to be how they get antisemitism statistics. They basically crowd source their info, and there are just so many ways that can go wrong. It sounds like I could basically call up the ADL tomorrow from different phone booths or write from different emails and they'd absorb whatever yarn I spun them. ] (]) 14:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::Ok let's put an end to this red herring raised by JP and Shadowwarrior. When JP wrote above {{tqq|extrapolating from this to "the number 12 is a hate symbol"}}, he wasn't quoting the ADL or anyone else. When Shadow wrote {{tqq|How is this a hate symbol}}, that's a straw man argument. Nobody ever said the number 12 ''is'' a hate symbol, or that 100% ''is'' a hate symbol. The ADL is saying these numbers ''have been used as'' hate symbols. Which is true. And explained in the ADL article. As quoted by several editors in response above. There are other reasons the ADL is not reliable (detailed in other votes above), but not because they say numbers are hate symbols, because the ADL doesn't say that. Nobody would be stupid enough to claim a number is a hate symbol. ] (]) 14:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::This is not the case. I would recommend, if you're unclear about what claims I am making, that you read the three-paragraph-long explanation of the claims, which I wrote directly above this, starting with "{{tq|Okay, but there is no source for any of the stuff that they are saying}}" -- let me know if there are any issues. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 20:14, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::I agree with all of those arguments. ] (]) 20:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 2'''. A database is a database. Certainly, inclusion criteria may be biased, and this must always be considered (especially in case of a campaign organisation), but I'd be okay with careful sourcing of actual hate symbols, whenever required, to ADFL if worded cautiously or accompanied by a disclaimer. — ]&nbsp;] 16:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' per kashmiri, if we ever have occasion to document a symbol (obviously this alone is no basis for a dedicated article on any symbol, nor does this mean it will necessarily be due in contexts where the issue is not symbology), yes, we should say, with attribution, what others say about its use; it's often the case that symbols (for example gang symbols) are inscrutable to many in multiple ways, except those who watch such things (or have been in the meliue). -- ] (]) 20:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''', per kasmiri and in the way described by Loki. RS source the database for basic facts so we can do that with attribution. ] (]) 09:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2 or 3''' realistically there's no point citing it, if we can't find better sources for a given symbol it's ]—] 19:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' Seems most of the entries can be antisemitic dog-whistles in certain contexts, though context must matter. Could be used to identify a possible dog whistle, though it shouldn't be used to accuse randomly anyone of antisemitism without considering context or a pattern of behavior (I still recall pro-Israeli groups getting mad at Greta Thunberg because her favorite plushie was an octopus. If a known anti-semite/neo-Nazi was publishing cartoons with an octopus over the world or something like that, seems like that would be real antisemitism.) ] (]) 21:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1 or 2''' Questionable inclusion criteria may lead to some entries being overblown and thus undue, but generally no reason to question reliability or factuality. ] (]) 03:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::You seem to be ignoring the lack of reliability, the absence of references, and the total lack of authorship information. These are serious issues. ] (]) 23:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' - The ADL is widely viewed as a highly credible source on the issues it works on (akin to suggesting SPLC is not credible on hate groups or HRC is not credible on LGBT issues). It is generally reliable which is why it is ] which, per ], is "evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts". ] (]) 22:55, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	::This needs to be struck out. You're accusing others who highlight the total lack of reliability or authorship information about this database of being "agenda-driven". That is unacceptable. See ]. ] (]) 23:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::That was not my intention but have edited this per a ping on my talk page. Not wanting to get drawn into what is clearly a time sink here, I will be walking away from this topic. ] (]) 23:57, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2'''. Most of it appears accurate and correct, but some of it is "off the mark", ie not widely accepted as a hate symbol by any other RS which raises many questions on it's reliability. I understand this is somewhat the point of the database, as it's never going to be 100% accurate, which is this makes it MREL and not GREL with attribution required. ] (]) 12:57, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Additional considerations apply''': The ADL is an advocacy organization and it may be reliable for information about itself and some other cases of antisemitism, but it must be used with caution, especially within the IL-PA and A-I conflicts. It could be used for attributed opinions and possibly for information about colleges, but it should be used with care like many other religious advocacy organizations. ] ] 16:41, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per Rhododendrites, BilledMammal, Zaathras. ] (]) 11:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:] has a good point on ] ] (]) 11:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''; this would be peak "throwing the baby with the bathwater". One of the least objectionable things that the ADL does is compile the list of anti-semitic dogwhistles. ''']''' (]) 17:16, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	===Discussion===		=== Survey A: Geni.com ===
			:'''Deprecate'''. User-generated junk that should be flagged when introduced. ] (]) 05:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate'''.<strike>'''Question'''. Isn't it already deprecated?</strike>--] (]) 11:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate''' A user generated source that just keeps getting readded, deprecation will warn users against adding it. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:10, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			: '''Unsure'''. Some doubt about deprecation as RSP says that primary sources uploaded to geni can be used as primary sources here. Is there a way of communicating that to users rather than giving a blanket warning? (I might be a little ignorant of how deprecation works in practice!) ] (]) 15:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate'''. Really bad. Needs to go away.—] 00:07, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Invalid RFC/No change''' - giving only options here that are highly negative is not a neutral stance. And there is no specific evidences shown or reason why this is even coming up or needs that all previous RSP should be declared invalid. (See discussions ). Cheers ] (]) 01:45, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Survey B: Medieval Lands / MedLands by Charles Cawley ===
	* I'm merging the three discussion sections that would normally go here because these RFCs are all closely connected. ] (]) 00:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate''', per background discussion. ] (]) 05:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	* In response to BilledMammal's response to my !vote on Section 1: (1) I see no evidence of RS saying SJP is a front for Hamas; (2) that's not how I read the plain language of the article; (3) correct, but this is part of a pattern of wild divergences in position that renders them inconsistent and, therefore, unreliable; (4) that's not how I read the plain language of the article. ] (]) 01:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Comment'''. I think this source has been often discussed in a superficial way, together with other sources, which does not always lead to a clear perspective. This is not like the other two. It collects a lot of useful extracts from primary sources than can be helpful for getting a grip on a topic. Although it is basically the work of one editor, this editor was assigned to do this for an organization which does make some efforts to maintain a reputation for quality. (The FMG publishes a journal, and it posts some online corrections to Keats-Rohan's reference works for the 11th and 12th century, and she has noted those helpful efforts in print.) On the other hand, Medlands does not use secondary material very much, so it is normally not going to the type of source we would use on WP on its own for anything non-obvious. I note these complications because I see that sources like Ancestry.com and Findmypast also have special notes about how they can sometimes have useful primary materials. To give a practical example of what might go wrong, what I saw in the past whenever this source was discussed, is that it was even deleted from external links sections and so on. I think this is a source that can be used for external links at the very least. I feel hesitant to say that it should NEVER EVER be used even in the main body to be honest, although I don't use it on WP.--] (]) 11:44, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*: Regarding (1) I don't see the ADL saying SJP is a front for Hamas either, just that they provided "material support". Regarding (2) and (4), to simplify this can you quote the sections that you interpret as the sources saying that ADL is pushing falsehoods? Regarding (3), I would need to see more of a pattern, rather than an isolated incident, and preferably in regards to matters of fact rather instead of opinion, before I can comment further on that. ] (]) 01:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate''' Crawley has no academic background in history and MedLands is self-published. It is not published by FMG only hosted by them. That it contains a lot of useful information is not the same as it having a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, something it doesn't have. Deprecation isn't blacklisting, editors are warned against adding it not blocked. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:18, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	* '''On deprecating a single topic area.''' This RfC deals with three distinct topic areas. Potentially deprecating the source for a single topic would present editorial difficulties, as Loki has observed. That said, because we have no policy or guideline that precludes this, I'm inclined to believe this remains a valid option and the method we would use to apply it would have to be sorted out after the fact if it landed on that, potentially through further discussion. ] (]) 01:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			::{{re|ActivelyDisinterested}} I see the fine print, but we know editors who need simple rules don't understand fine print in practice. The text for deprecated says "'''the source is generally prohibited'''". I'm thinking these sorts of decisions should be made if they reduce the number of useless pseudo-legal debates, and not increase them. (In reality the main principle we should always follow is that good editors will judge based on context IMHO. There are so many possible contexts, and trying to make rules to cover them all is not always a good idea.) ] (]) 13:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*:I'm still concerned about this because the concrete meaning of a deprecation per ] is:
			:::Editors who know the fine print will be the ones using the source correctly, and will know how to handle the situation. The issue is that editors who don't know keep adding this as a reference to support content, and the many discussions on the source show they isn't support for that. Adding a warning when editors post will at least get editors to ask why they are getting the warning, and help them understand the situation.
	*:1. The source is generally unreliable.
			:::Deprecation of this source will ''reduce'' the pointless pseudo-legal debates, by reducing the problem of the source being repeatedly readded. Editors should use their own good judgement, but as repeated discussion about this source have shown that isn't happening. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 14:01, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*:2. New users adding the source are reverted by bot.
			::::Yes in effect it would reduce the possibly of any discussion, good or bad, by effectively making the source not worth discussing, or am I misunderstanding? The fine print would be irrelevant in practice, and that is my concern in this case.--] (]) 14:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*:3. Any user attempting to add the source is warned not to.
			:::::The discussion has been against using this source for at least a decade, and deprecation doesn't stop anyone wanting to question from discussing it. Deprecation doesn't in anyway stop editors from discussing anything. What effect this will have is to warn editors when they try to add the source, anything else is as you say your misunderstanding. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 15:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*:Part 1 can clearly be implemented for a single topic area but is no different from Option 3. Parts 2 and 3 do not seem to me to be reasonably possible to implement per topic area. So either it's deprecated for all topic areas, or it's just a pointed way of voting generally unreliable. ] (]) 13:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::I think we both know exactly what I mean about what will happen in reality when WP goes into bot mode. I am just saying that there is a cost to rule making.--] (]) 16:11, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*::Agreed, particularly with the last point. ] (]) 13:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::Yes the cost of not having to continuously patrol for this source and have the same discussion about it's reliability again and again.
	*::I'm not keen on moving to deprecation without going through generally unreliable first, if we want to consider that separately following this RFC, we could do that. ] (]) 13:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:As per previous experience any RFC for deprecation will likely end up being reviewed, especially in this area. So if anyone is advocating for deprecation they need to be making a very strong argument.<br>There seems to be a general misunderstanding that its the next step up from generally unreliable, but deprecation goes well beyond that. It's for sources that are not only generally unreliable but completely untrustworthy (for instance publishing lies, losing a court case about those lies, and then deliberately covering up the fact that the lies had ever been published, and then lying about doing so). -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 14:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)		:::::::Separately before the two of us fill the survey section with our disagreement (mea culpa), should we move this discussion to the Discussion section? -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 16:17, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Generally unreliable'''. I first read the definitions of the categories we are voting on. (I hope others do also.) ''Generally unreliable'' is the one which says this: {{tq|"questionable in most cases. The source may lack an editorial team, have a poor reputation for fact-checking, fail to correct errors, be self-published"}} I think that's the accurate description in this case. It also seems to match what others are arguing, and so I note with some concern that there might be misunderstandings about what "deprecate" really means on WP. How I read it, deprecation would ''only'' allow use for self-description (for example if there was a Medlands article), and otherwise it would be ''prohibited''. To repeat what I wrote elsewhere, I am not advising editors to use this website, but its collection of medieval primary sources is possibly going to be useful here and there to someone, and I don't think bots (or bot-like editors) should be sent out to "attack" without looking at context every time someone mentions it.--] (]) 14:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::*A source can't logically be completely untrustworthy (as opposed to merely unreliable) on a single topic. Any determination that a source is completely untrustworthy on any given topic should presume to it being untrustworthy on all topics. Since the standard for deprecation is generally linked to a penchant for dishonesty versus mere incompetence, it would be incoherent to posit that we could sometimes trust a habitual liar. ] (]) 18:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			::Sure, it may be useful as a reference work, or as introductory material for the interested reader, but it shouldn't be cited as a "source". Just like Misplaced Pages itself isn't a "source", but a collection of sources. The "Rurik dynasty" case outlined at ] shows just how careless Cawley is in using sources, e.g. taking known problematic primary sources that he ''knows'' {{xt!|may be of little factual significance}} at face value just because he finds them "]" ({{xt!|but is reproduced by way of interest}}), and citing private emails from others as "sources" that we can't ]. Surely our readers deserve a higher standard that this. ] (]) 14:45, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::*:It would be a somewhat confused situation, but my comment was just to try and stop the discussion going off course and to point out that deprecation isn't "generally unreliable++". -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::Perhaps you can explain what real disadvantages the '''Generally unreliable''' category would bring? I doubt we disagree on much here. But one idea which is guiding me is that generally speaking, I don't think we can or should try to predict every case, and write rules for everything. We should only break the basic, proven WP way of working when we really have to, and then ''only as far as we have to''. By this I mean sources should be judged according to the core content policy, in the context of specific examples, which we can't predict. So my approach here is to read the definitions of the categories we can choose from, and pick the accurate one. I think I did it correctly. Deprecation seems to be for extreme cases where we literally accept that WP editors will now sometimes beat each other with a virtual stick if anyone dares post such a source, even in an external links section. I can understand how this might be for the best when we look at Geni, however... --] (]) 15:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::*::It is kinda, in the sense of RFC options on a scale of 1 to 4, at any rate, worse than unreliable. ] (]) 12:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Generally reliable''', in my experience. Furthermore, it provides footnotes to almost every claim that one can use instead of linking to the website. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::*:::I should have said "isn't ''just'' 'generally unreliable++'". The 1-4 scale should maybe be changed so deprecation appears differently, 1-3 +D maybe. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 12:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate''' per ActivelyDisinterested.—] 00:10, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	::If it’s a binary choice between deprecation of ADL as a whole and no depreciation whatsoever, I support depreciation of ADL. The quality of their information ranges from bad (hate symbols) to worse (antisemitism) to outright propaganda and disinformation (I/P). If ADL was (nominally) representing any other group besides Jews it would be considered a far-right disinformation campaign. Nothing is lost by saying “avoid this”, and nothing is gained from “broken clocks are right twice a day”. ] (]) 08:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''No Change''' - no entry to RSP needed and seems has been accepted. This just is not something that often comes up for question and seems has not been hard to figure out the nature of so it also does not need a RSP entry. Yet as can be seen by , it is used and that seems evidence that common view *is* de facto RS by usage. Really seems like just declaring all those edits wrong is not a useful thing. Cheers ] (]) 02:03, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I would concur here. While the ADL website has been a convenient source for hate symbols and general information on hate groups it is not a critical one for this, nor, as has been pointed out, even one with particularly academic methodology for inclusion. With its movement toward being an open advocacy / lobby group for Israel it is increasingly inappropriate for other uses. If we have to deprecate the whole thing, let's deprecate the whole thing. ] (]) 13:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
	*{{ping|Slatersteven|buidhe|Hemiauchenia|Eladkarmel|Chess|O3000, Ret.|ElLuzDelSur}} Ping editors who participated in the above discussion on ADL but haven't participated here. Apologies if I missed anyone who participated there, or pinged anyone who has already participated here. ] (]) 02:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	*:{{ping|Objective3000}} Fix ping. ] (]) 02:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	====Antisemitism====
	I wanted to expand a bit on why I think that the arguments used by editors !voting for Option 3/4 are not good. Most of the arguments are based on the sources criticising their definition of antisemitism, such as this in the Nation
	{{cquote|“U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Skyrocketed 360% in Aftermath of Attack in Israel,” warned the ADL press release... But much of the report was hype. Rather than attacks against Jews due to their religious or ethnic identity, many of the cited “incidents” were actions directed against Israel to protest the conduct of its war in Gaza—incidents... Many of the incidents were simply protests by civil rights organizations such as Students for Justice in Palestine.}}
	The author evidently doesn't consider "simple protests" by Students for Justice in Palestine to be antisemitic. However this is '''his opinion'''. As an example, ] slogan that was likely chanted during those SJP protests is widely perceived to call for the destruction of the world's only Jewish state, and hence antisemitic. Of course, others do not consider it antisemitic, and it's fine, we should describe all viewpoints. The problem with the !votes based on these sources is that they talk about the "veracity" or "unreliability" of antisemitism claim as if there is one true definition of antisemitism. ]<sub>]</sub> 12:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			=== Survey C: genealogy.eu / genealogy.euweb.cz by Marek Miroslav ===
	:“Likely” chanted? And you’re complaining about verifiably? ] (]) 16:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate'''. SPS that is far too widely cited already, probably because the url looks like it's some official site. ] (]) 05:52, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::So you think that they chanted "Two-state solution"? On a more serious note, you can find them talking about the criteria {{tquote|Krain said the ADL counted any demonstration featuring pro-Palestinian chants such as “globalize the intifada, “by all means necessary,” “Zionism is terrorism,” and “from the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free.”}} ]<sub>]</sub> 06:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::So ... Calling for a global uprising against injustice; calling out what is arguably a duck as being a duck; and calling for freedom. Not sure I get the part where any of that is anything but political. ] (]) 07:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)		::Which website were you looking at? If you type genealogy.eu you seem to be redirected to a completely different website which I GUESS is not the one we are meant to be discussing?--] (]) 11:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::: by Marek Miroslav, which advertises itself as {{xt|genealogy.eu}} and has often been cited as such on English Misplaced Pages, even though "genealogy.eu" these days indeed redirects to a different website (https://en.filae.com/v4/genealogie/HomePage.mvc/welcome; which is outside the scope of this RfC). ] (]) 11:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::@] Referring to the Jewish nation's right of self-determination as "terrorism" is definitely antisemitism according to the ] by the ], and also according to common sense. ] (]) 07:20, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate'''. Another self published source that keeps getting readded, deprecation will warn editors against doing so. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:20, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::@]: I guess it's good that no one said that then. ] is not the "]"; it is a political ideology – you'll note the separate pages. ] (]) 07:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate'''. I am surprised this one is being used a lot. I have not come across it yet I think. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:54, 3 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
	::::::Zionism is the expression of the Jewish nation's right to self-determination. That is obvious. ] (]) 08:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Comment'''. The site is useful for quick checks. In general, it's a faithful transcription of such classic sources as the ], Dworzaczek's Genealogia (Warszawa, 1958), etc. It's better to refer our readers to the published sources, of course (if one has access to them). By the way, the site has not been updated since 2005. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::Yes, it's a political expression. And it's freedom of speech to critique political expressions quite freely. ] (]) 08:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			::Sure, it may be useful for quick checks, but it shouldn't be cited as a "source". ] (]) 19:20, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::This discussion is not about of free speech at all. The ADL is not trying to have the US government throw people into jail for saying anti-Zionist things, by equating them with antisemitism. Since in the US even undisputed antisemitic speech is also protected by the First Amendment (as long as it's not a direct incitement for violence). It is a genuine debate about what is the definition of antisemitism. And whether you personally like it or not most people agree that saying that the Jewish nation doesn't have the right for self-determination and its expression, is antisemitism. ] (]) 09:18, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Deprecate'''. The site, from what I can tell, doesn't tell us where they get the information. For example; . --] 21:37, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::I've already addressed this muddled conflation of Zionism, a political ideology, and the conceptual right to self-determination. But that's not the topic. Pertinently, you are not in a position to define what "most people agree", let alone determine that the ADL somehow represents what most people agree, with regards to anti-Zionism: you haven't provided RS evidence for any of this. You are assuming that the ADL's position falls within the mainstream, but you haven't actually demonstrated that. ] (]) 09:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			** This one (like most others) seems to be adapted from Paul Theroff's site . And Theroff said more than once that his main source is the ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::I don't know the validity of the statement "most people agree", but let's assume it's accurate for the sake of argument. In that case, wouldn't it be more precise to say that saying that the Jewish nation doesn't have the right for self-determination is about 74% antisemitic, 20% anti-Arab, etc. based on the demographics? Just putting this radical idea out there in the hopes that the ADL will pick it up and run with it. ] (]) 10:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::Don't forget the Druze, who in Israel don't like to be called Arab either. ] (]) 10:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)		**:Well, that is neither obvious nor transparent. Plus, it could be a copyvio if they just steal or plagiarise each other's work. ] (]) 09:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Deprecate'''. ]. Deprecation will have a positive effect. And while it's always possible that someone in the know, who's really into genealogy, has the ability of figuring out out how the operator of this website makes it have the content that it has, that's not useful for determining reliability.—] 00:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::::It's certainly a complex and interesting question. For example, what happens if you apply the question to a smaller area? Instead of saying the entire Jewish state doesn't have the right&nbsp;to exist, someone says that a predominantly Jewish settlement that is half in Israel and half across the Green Line does not have the right to exist? Is that 100%, 50% or 0% antisemitic? Sentiment analysis is hard. Good luck to people trying compress language into categories. To their credit, at least the ADL seem to take the "it depends,&nbsp;sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't" approach. ] (]) 11:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I would argue that this is one of the cases where the old 3D definition is actually superior to some of the more modern ones, despite the associated issues, making the answer to your question 0%. ] (]) 12:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)		*'''No change to either of these''' - seems this is referring to two different sources, both of which are somewhat widely used in WP and neither of which seems suitable for an RSP entry. Just not seeing sufficient case or benefit from any entry either. Cheers ] (]) 02:13, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::What has that to do with ADL screwing up on antisemitism? ] (]) 13:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::Whether IHRA (or other modern definitions) is a fringe definition to use. I believe this not be the case, but this is one of the cases where another is clearer ] (]) 13:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::The ADL takes the already controversial IHRA and expands its already undue protection of Israel even further by specifically equating AZ = AS, that's fringe in my view. ] (]) 13:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::It is broadly cited, reported and also used by multiple institutions and governments, I wouldn’t consider it fringe. ] (]) 13:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::What's "it"? IHRA? It's controversial, add AZ = AS and its fringe. ] (]) 14:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::It is IHRA, sorry for being vague.
	::::::::::::::::::Every definition of Antisemitism is controversial, and IHRA appears to be one of the most broadly used ones.
	::::::::::::::::::AZ being partially AS, IHRA covering all or most of AS and combing both is not unusual if you are going to collect all antisemitism, particularly as some AZ (and related actions) are covered by IHRA. And even if it were unusual, it’s far from fringe. ] (]) 14:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::::Who else does it besides the ADL? ] (]) 14:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::::Use IHRA or describe some AZ as AS? The aggregation is one of the significant things where the ADL is premier and the reason they are broadly cited, particularly by media RS. ] (]) 14:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::::::https://www.timesofisrael.com/has-the-term-antisemitism-been-overused-or-overblown-beyond-usefulness/ ] (]) 14:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::::::This seems to show discourse, not really an indication of being fringe, unless I am missing a specific part? ] (]) 14:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::::::I agree with Ury, but the fact he is pushing against a prevalent, possibly even dominant, view shows that the view he’s pushing against is not “fringe”. {{tq| Some 43 countries have adopted the IHRA definition of antisemitism. Hundreds of regional and local governments have also adopted the resolution, including 33 states in the US. Unlike Miron and Ury, most mainstream American Jewish leaders — including President Joe Biden’s antisemitism czar, Deborah Lipstadt — support the IHRA definition.}} ] (]) 07:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::::::::I hope I am replying to the correct comment- this thread is very hard to read in mobile at this point - but, yes, Misplaced Pages does lend undue space to Trump's nonsensical statements. That doesn't mean we should do the same for the ADL's nonsensical statements regarding post October 7 antisemitism. If Misplaced Pages needs to speak to these claims we should handle it like we do climate change denial. ] (]) 12:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::::: ] (]) 14:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::::::A biased and uncited article describing broad use is also not really an indication of it being fringe, merely controversial, which I (and most reasonable people) don’t dispute. ] (]) 14:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::::::I would actually add to @] words that this article actually proves the opposite of fringe. Even Neve who is very much against this definition is forced to admit that it gained huge acceptance. Even in the academia "In the UK alone, three-fourths of all universities have taken it on board". Thanks for proving my thesis for me :-) ] (]) 15:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::@] The view that AZ=AS (under certain conditions) is definitely not fringe. In the general public it enjoys a huge support. Definitely in the US where the ADL operates. This is evidenced by a landslide majority of 70% who voted for it in the house, against only 3% who voted against it. You may of course be dismissive of the hoi polloi, and say that only the opinions of scholars count. But the truth is that you cannot prove that for the academic world either. '''You gave no proof whatsoever that the view AZ=AS in considered fringe even in the scholarly world.''' The fact that some scholars object to AZ=AS doesn't make it fringe. To make it fringe you have to show that there is a consensus in the scholarly world that AZ is not AS, i.e. that the majority of scholars think that AZ is not AS. Nobody has shown that here. To sum up. If you want to declare it fringe and disqualify a source based on this then the onus of proof is on you, and so far you failed to do that. ] (]) 14:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::I never said AZ = AS is fringe, I said IHRA + AZ = AS is fringe and I said that is my view. ] (]) 14:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::I'm not sure how IHRA+AZ=AS is different from AZ=AS. And if you admit this is just your personal view then this is clearly not a good enough argument... Anyway I think we have taken too much space on this. If you want to continue this particular discussion come to my talk page. If not then bye for now. ] (]) 14:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::That depends on what you consider the line between legitimate and protected political speech and illegal violation of hate speech laws, which varies depending on the country. Arguing that People of Color should not be allowed to vote due to their race/ethnicity is also a criticism of liberal and egalitarian political values and expression, and could also be banned depending on your location. ] (]) 12:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Also nothing to do with subject at hand. ] (]) 13:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::It does if some people are arguing that antizionism is generally or always not antisemitism. ] (]) 13:20, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Might be, might not, ADL says it is, that's fringe. ] (]) 13:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::As cited elsewhere, it generally doesn’t. It says that some is, a view that is not fringe. ] (]) 13:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::They do IHRA + AZ=AS, that's like everything, fringe. ] (]) 14:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::A expansion of IHRA to account for relevant and debated is not fringe unless you show it is, particularly if in line with the social and political discourse. ] (]) 14:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::] of ] considers the protests to be antisemitic, which is one of the reasons he's been giving his support to them. PJ Podesta, writing for the Electronic Intifada say that {{tq|Such calls to action do not include that we opine on Palestinians’ methods of resistance.}}, Students for Justice in Palestine says that {{tq|Settlers are not “civilians” in the sense of international law, because they are military assets used to ensure continued control over stolen Palestinian land.}} to justify the killing of Jewish people in Israel's pre-1967 borders. Its easy to read what the protestors are writing, and they are a disparate group of people united by a shared hatred of Jews. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 14:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::Yes, because being opposed the dispossession, starvation and slaughter of your people can only be possible if you are racist against their oppressors. That quote doesn’t say one word about Jews, much less hating Jews, and this game in which one argues that conflating Jews and Israel is antisemitic and then conflates Israel with Jews so as to deflect any critical view on Israel or Israelis as against Jews is tiresome. But by all means, continue arguing by association fallacy, one of these days you might be able to convince somebody that your unsupported and libelous claims are actually grounded in anything besides worn out propaganda. ''']''' - 15:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	:Even going along with the dubious assertion that the slogan in question was a specific call for the destruction of a state (as opposed to a call for freedom, as the chant actually goes), the religious characterisation of Israel cannot be directly inferred to be the motivation behind such a call. Indeed, when the state in question is a racist, apartheid and now genocidal one, there are rather a plethora of secular, moral reasons that one could imagine being invoked. The religious profession of a mass murderer is hardly relevant to the question of whether or not to condemn them. ] (]) 18:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			===Discussion (Geni.com, MedLands, genealogy.eu)===
	The problem with ADL is that it has expanded advocacy into activism in the Israel/IP area, even to the extent of bashing Jewish orgs that are sympathetic to the Palestinians. ramping up the rubbish 40 beheaded babies claim and then in says first that the head of Hamas called for a "global day of Jihad" () and then declared that “anti Zionism is genocide." (never mind just antisemitic). In fact the whole interview is worth a listen, if that's what the ADL is espousing, well...] (]) 18:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			{{re|ActivelyDisinterested}} my apologies also. To be clear, I respect your concern, and I think I understand it. I think we've conveyed our concerns, and laid out some pros and cons, and background principles. I'm not stressed about that. I think its a point of getting the balance right. In practical reality the three sources should not normally be used, and I see no big disagreements. I just think the difference between the two categories offered is (or should be) meaningful, and I wanted to make that clear. I am not really disagreeing with any other specific point.--] (]) 18:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	:That’s not ADL. That’s a tweet from Greenblatt’s personal account. We don’t need every ephemeral personal comment by the CEO to be true for a source itself to be reliable. Material in their reports goes through an editorial process in the way this individual’s kneejerk response to an emotional situation doesn’t. Has the ADL itself published the 40 beheaded babies claim? ] (]) 00:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:Although I disagree I can understand you position. It's to easy to get stuck in disagreement spirals are part of RFCs. Let's see if anyone else brings any new ideas. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:09, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I previously commented that a seperate warning for generally unreliable sources would be helpful, for ones that are problematicly readded on a regular basis would be useful. That way a warning would appear but wouldn't come with the baggage of deprecation. At the moment deprecation is the only resource available, but it is a somewhat blunt hammer. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 00:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@] Thanks for restoring the discussion from the archive; it evidently was not yet closed. It would seem that we've got a clear result though. Should I request a third party to formally close it with a conclusion, or how does this go with RfCs? ] (]) 18:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The {{tl|RFC}} tag was missing, which would have added "DoNotArchiveUntil.." to the header to stop it from being archived. I've add the RFC tag which will list in for every to see (not just those to happen across it on RSN). I suggest waiting and seeing if any more comments come in, as they editors have taken part yet. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 18:04, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I don't see the point to this. I can see there being concerns about quality of niche sources, but do not see a reason why a RSP entry should be made or benefit for trying it. Why should the source choice of hundreds or thousands of editors at thousands of entries be disregarded ? How can they all be effectively replaced ? I'm thinking that their de facto opinion has to be given great weight and that all those cites would either stay or that holes would be made in the affected articles -- so any RSP entry seems just pointless or causing lots of trouble rather than making any improvement. Am I missing some magic wand or an urgent concern worth the trauma ? Cheers ] (]) 02:26, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
	I think there is an issue in this RfC of different interpretations of {{u|Loki}}’s original question 2 of whether ADL is reliable “regarding antisemitism”. I took this to mean can we generally assume ADL’s factual claims are accurate in the topic area of antisemitism. Other editors (most of those arguing for option 3?) took it to mean should we call something antisemitic on the basis of ADL calling it antisemitic. I would agree with these editors that we shouldn’t, while still believing (on the basis of use by others and no presented examples of factual inaccuracy relating to antisemitism) that the ADL is a reliable source for facts in this topic area. Have I misread other editors’ interpretations? ] (]) 07:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			==RfC: Jacobin==
	:"According to the ADL, ] has engaged in antisemitism," and "according to the ADL, antisemitism has risen 10,000% since October 7" are two sentences that should not appear in Misplaced Pages, and that's why I vote 3 and not 2. If that makes sense? I do not agree with you that there is a distinction between "calling something antisemitic" and "factual accuracy." If they do things like call BDS antisemitic, then they are unreliable, about anything. Too partisan to be trusted. ] (]) 09:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			<!-- ] 17:01, 20 February 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1740070870}}
	::@] I think that there is in fact a strong case that the JVP had indeed engaged in antisemitism or at least bordering on it. This opinion is not just the ADL position, but also appears in these RS:
			{{RfC|prop|pol|media|rfcid=857ECCA}}
	::In a book published in Indiana University Press: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=rEJFEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA114&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
			Which of the following best describes the reliability of '']''?
	::In HaAretz: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-07-10/ty-article/has-jewish-voice-for-peace-crossed-the-line-into-anti-semitism/0000017f-e485-d38f-a57f-e6d7d4da0000
			* Option 1: ]
	::In The Forward: https://forward.com/opinion/391783/jvps-anti-semitic-obsession-with-jewish-power/
			* Option 2: ]
	::In NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/14/opinion/college-israel-anti-semitism.html
			* Option 3: ]
	::Also try to look open mindedly at the evidence presented by the ADL here:
			* Option 4: ]
	::https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know
			— ]&nbsp;<sub>]</sub> 16:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I agree that it might be farfetched to write in wikivoice "] has engaged in antisemitism" with a reference to ADL, but when it is attributed such as "According to the ADL, ] has engaged in antisemitism," it looks fine. Or you can even make it like this for good measure: "According to the ADL's '''opinion''', ] has engaged in antisemitism". But there is no basis and no need to declare it unreliable on the issue of antisemitism. ] (]) 10:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::I really don't think it's a good use of this noticeboard to argue over whether JVP is antisemitic. It's really not the question at hand.
	:::I would say that the question of whether we say "According to the ADL, Jewish Voice for Peace has engaged in antisemitism" and "according to the ADL, antisemitism has risen 10,000% since October 7" are not questions of reliability, but questions of due weight. I mean Donald Trump told endless lies, but we wouldn't remove his comments from our articles for that reason. If multiple RSs are reporting what ADL says, that's going to be noteworthy in some articles.
	:::Reliability questions are whether we can say "David Duke attended the rally" or "'From the river to the sea' was chanted at the rally" with a footnote to an ADL report. ] (]) 12:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::If other RSes report what ADL says then we'd cite those other RSes. Same with anything else. But that doesn't mean we cite ADL directly.
	::::I don't think we'd ever cite ADL for "so and so attended a rally" or "x was chanted at the rally" because ADL doesn't report on stuff like that. They're not journalism. We'd cite journalism for those kinds of facts. ] (]) 12:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::To use a concrete example: I don't think we should cite this ADL page for "many anti-Israel activists flocked to rallies across the United States at which speakers and attendees openly celebrated the brutal attacks" or for what it says about JVP ("JVP’s most inflammatory ideas can help give rise to antisemitism") or anything else in that report. Because it's not reliable for I/P or antisemitism (because of its partisan bias), I don't think it's reliable for saying what anti-Israel activists did or said. Also note this is labeled "blog" and has no byline. I don't see any masthead on the ADL website or any journalism ethics policy. It has none of the indicators of reliability that journalism has (bylines, masthead, editorial board, ethics policy). I don't think we should cite that page for anything. ] (]) 13:18, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::It is not just JVP, it is "The ADL did not count resolutions calling for a boycott of Israel as antisemitic," the report said, "because they do not target individuals. However, these are antisemitic and contribute to the pressures faced by Jews on campus." (Tchah!). ] (]) 12:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::The ADL is perfectly aware that the Palestinian slogan "From the river to the sea" corresponds exactly to a core article in the Likud party's foundational charter:-
	::::<blockquote>The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; '''between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty'''.</blockquote>
	::::Since 1977 <s>that has remained on its platform and</s> Likud has been the dominant governing party over the last 45 or so years. So the ADL or whoever, in-citing the Palestinian version as 'antisemitic' is deliberately obscuring the fact that Likud, by that definition, would be 'antisemitic', in identical terms. ] (]) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I have no objection at all to describing those who support "greater Israel", like some of the Israeli right wing, as anti-Palestinians. But of course it would be wrong to call them antisemitic, as this term in unique to being against Jews. And you can check that in any English dictionary. ] (]) 12:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Please don't chip in if you have failed to grasp the point (irony in a logical inference taking the form of an hypothetical).] (]) 13:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::"From the river to the sea" is not, in fact, in the Likud platform, {{u|Nishidani}}. You can literally find all their platforms online - here's one from , no mention of that wording. It was in the original platform, but that specific wording is not used now. Likud is fairly extreme enough, so there's no need to mislead about what their platform actually is. '''] ]''' 13:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::It may no longer be explicit in their platform but that is what successive Israeli governments actually aspire to, ] (]) 13:23, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Putting aside a slanted opinion piece, "from the river to the sea" is clearly controversial because of its use by actual terrorist groups that . Most rationally-minded people recognize the issue with one side claiming all of the territory. '''] ]''' 13:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::The 'slanted opinion' comes from one of the foremost scholars of the conflict, who unfortunately happens to be Palestinian. I have struck out the error, as you indicate, in asserting likud still has it on its platform. The point is, that Likud has no need for it to be on its platform, since it passed in 2018 the same principle in its ]
	::::::::* Basic Principles
	::::::::*1. The ''']''' is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
	::::::::*2. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination.
	::::::::*3. '''The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.'''
	::::::::The slight legal equivocation here between State of Israel and the (Greater) Land of Israel was clarified by the present government in its programme, when it took power.I.e.<blockquote>'''The Jewish people have an exclusive and inalienable right to all parts of the Land of Israel.''' The government will promote and develop the settlement of all parts of the Land of Israel — in the Galilee, the Negev, the Golan and Judea and Samaria. Carrie Keller-Lynn, Michael Bachner, ] 28 December 2022</blockquote>
			===Survey: ''Jacobin''===
	::::::::In plain man's language, the Jewish people are the only people in the world who have an exclusive right to all of the land between the Jordan and the sea. So waffling around the obvious is smoke in the eyes. It's useless trying to justify, by the jejune 'terrorist' use of it card, the distortions of the ADL or anyone else who fudge the obvious correlation between the positively championed policy of the government enshrined in a recent basic law, and the negatively spun slogan used by pro-Palestinian demonstrators. That is part of the Orwellian politics of language abuse and conceptual obfuscation instinct in the discursive gamesmanship of this area.] (]) 13:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2''' I am opposed to the use of ] and think that no media outlet, no matter how reliable, should be listed higher than option 2. With that being said, I would list New York Times or the CBC in precisely the same way and I don't believe that any of the complainants have demonstrated in any way that Jacobin is less reliable, per Misplaced Pages's standards, than any other American news media outlet. I am deeply concerned that many of the complaints are about "bias" when reliability does not include a political compass test. This is not grounds to treat a source as unreliable. ] (]) 16:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::None of this actually matters to the phrase in question, which is undeniably and unequivocally connected with terrorist groups. This is why the ADL regards it as antisemitic and it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to understand that. You're not going to get any disagreement from me that claiming the entire region for your specific ethnic group is wrong. '''] ]''' 14:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2/3''', bias is one thing, getting things down right incorrect is another. As was demonstrated in the pre-discussion, the notion around the housing stock was truly an egregious error. This was not a typo, or a miscalculation, this was bias that creeped so heavily into the newsroom as to make the writers push a narrative, instead of report on the facts. When that happens, "Generally unreliable" or at minimum, "Additional considerations" makes sense as the guidance when using this source. I do not think further deprecation is warranted though since the reporters seem to be of a mixed quality, some are more diligent than others and the bias merging into wanton disregard for facts varies there too. The problem is, we rate sources, not just individual writers, and therefore as far as a source rating goes, "Option 2" or "Option 3" then makes the most logical sense. ] (]) 16:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::::It is not quite accurate to say that the ADL regards it as antisemitic *because* it is "undeniably and unequivocally connected with terrorist groups". They regard it as antisemitic because they say it denies "the Jewish right to self-determination, including through the removal of Jews from their ancestral homeland", for example. I assume if it was not connected to terrorist groups they would arrive at the same conclusion. ] (]) 14:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			*:It was corrected. Your entire case is based on a single incident where a single writer made a single mistake. ''And it was fixed.'' There is absolutely no grounds for "Generally unreliable" on the basis of presented evidence. ] (]) 16:51, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::It would take a degree in hasbaraology to understand that.] (]) 14:11, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			*::It was corrected only after significant outside pressure and even then the correction was weak and inaccurate. The guy who wrote the article was explicitly mocking the people who pointed out his error and accusing them of something along the lines of being corporate shills. It also wasn’t a single incident as they publish nonsense regarding Russia and Ukraine, including and up to outright conspiracy theories, pretty regularly. It simply is not a reliable source, however much one agrees with their editorial stance.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::::You might want to strike that yourself. ] (]) 14:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Why? Read ], no need to reinvent the wheel here. ] (]) 14:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)		*:::So you agree with Iljhgtn's conspiracy theory that this was the purposeful result of pushing bias not an error? ] (]) 21:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::::I don’t see any “conspiracy theories” from anyone here, including ] and your attempts to characterize a pretty reasonable statement (“bias that creeped” in) as such are kind of offensive and disingenuous. Can you make an argument without making false and insulting accusations against others? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 01:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::" the phrase in question, which is undeniably and unequivocally connected with terrorist groups. This is why the ADL regards it as antisemitic and it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to understand that."
			**:::::You misquote the editor (to your benefit), for someone so interested in errors supposedly motivated by bias that seems odd... In context its clearly stronger than that "This was not a typo, or a miscalculation, this was bias that creeped so heavily into the newsroom as to make the writers push a narrative, instead of report on the facts." when nothing suggests that this was the result of narrative pushing (thats how you push a narrative either, as you've pointed out although lingusitically similar its an embarrassing and obvious error). ] (]) 01:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::I'm sorry but this is nonesense. This whole debate is ridiculous as the bare phrase "from the river to the sea" is in no way antisemitic by itself. We should not need to be having this "debate".
			***::::::You literally accused another editor, without basis in fact, of pushing “conspiracy theory” as a rhetorical device on your part to discredit and debase their views. You have absolutely no room to accuse others of, according to you, “misquoting” (which I did not do). And your attempts to litigate the meaning of “narrative pushing” (of course the article was trying to push a narrative! It was an opinion piece! That’s what opinion pieces do - this one just did it with false facts) are just typically tiresome.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 01:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::Also, please everyone in this conversation stop with the excessive arguing and ]. ] (]) 14:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			***:::::::You keep dancing around... Do you really believe that the information was changed to push a narrative? (and remember that such a specific claim about a living person falls under BLP, so if the answer is yes a source needs to be provided) ] (]) 02:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Words have meaning, and phrases have meaning. You're right, the random string of words "from the river to the sea" has no inherent meaning, nor does "Christ is king" or "it's ok to be white". However, words have meaning in context - "Christ is king" is used on Twitter to harass Jews and Muslims, "]" is coded language used by white supremacists, and "from the river to the sea" is used by terrorist groups as their end goal of a Jew-free levant. There may be contexts where using any of these sets of word are not racist, but the ADL - understandably - regards phrases heavily tied to racist groups as being, well, racist. And saying "well, Likud said it too in the 70s" doesn't change that, because Likud could (quite reasonably) be also seen as racist, and if radical Israeli groups started to use the phrase, too, they'd likely face stark condemnation. '''] ]''' 14:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			***::::::::No , I’m not. I’m simply asking you to refrain from trying to falsely characterize other people’s comments as “conspiracy theories” in a cheap attempt to delegitimize them since they’re clear nothing of the sort. Not everything you disagree with is a “conspiracy theory”. In this particular case, the article clearly had false info in it. No one has ever said that “information was changed” (as if on purpose) so please stop pretending otherwise. What was said was that “bias creeped in” which I think is a fair characterization. So please quit it with the strawman’ing.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::::::It is right-wing, pro-Israeli nonsense that "from the river to the sea" is somehow linked to "terror groups". Which groups exactly? And what on earth? Anyone with eyeballs and common sense is perfectly well aware that tens of thousand of peaceful protesters have routinely turned out over the past six months while using that phrase to call for a "free Palestine", which here, as all know, means freedom in an extremely classic sense: liberation from an oppresssive (here apartheid) regime. The vast majority of the usage is in such a peaceful context that it couldn't be further from terrorism. ] (]) 16:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			***:::::::::I am pretty shocked by these accusations if true, and would ask we ]. I believe @] is a good editor and contributor to these discussions normally though, so I think I must be missing something or a miscommunication may have occurred. I will give them time and space to explain if they feel explanation is warranted. I sure would appreciate it. ] (]) 17:34, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::::@] As a matter of fact the ADL had accused the Israeli police minister Ben-Gvir of racism.https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-adl-trade-barbs-over-jewish-racism-section-in-annual-antisemitism-report/ ] (]) 14:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			***::::::::::Its you who needs to provide a source to substantiate your allegations against a living person. ""This was not a typo, or a miscalculation, this was bias that creeped so heavily into the newsroom as to make the writers push a narrative, instead of report on the facts." is a BLP violation unless a source is provided or the author drops dead. ] (]) 18:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	Regardless of where you fall on the argument, a recent poll done in Gaza and the West Bank shows that 71% of Palestinians still support what Hamas did on October 7th. <ref>{{cite web | url=https://www.nationalreview.com/news/over-70-percent-of-palestinians-support-hamass-october-7-terror-attack-poll/ | title=Over 70 Percent of Palestinians Support Hamas's October 7 Terror Attack: Poll | website=] | date=21 March 2024 }}</ref>. October 7th was based on antisemitism. I take issue with the ADL for many reasons but rating this a 3-4 solely on the current events unfolding aurround Israel and Palestine is uninformed in my opinion. Up until 2017, the Hamas charter was full of antisemitism and made direct references to their negative views about the Jewish people. It was rewritten specifically to gain legitimacy to garner support around the world which is now helping them in their fight against Israel. In my opinion, I believe anyone that is chanting "From the River to the Sea" is supporting the 71% of Palestinians that support Hamas. ] (]) 20:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
			*:And what is your source for that? Nobody else is saying that this was the result of bias, the sources say that "third largest corporate owner of housing" became "owns a third of housing" which is a very understandable mistake. You appear to have constructed your own conspiracy theory around this incident. ] (]) 17:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Im sorry but “third largest owner” turning into “owns one third of all housing stock” is NOT an “understandable mistake”. It misstates the actual fact by a factor of 500. Maybe if this was like a student in some freshmen class using AI to write a paper that would be “understandable” (and still get an F) but this is supposed to be a professional, who’s job it is to get this stuff right and this is supposed to be a serious organization that has an editorial board that does fact checking. Which they obviously didn’t do.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Its not math so the factor that it mistates it by is irrelevant, they are much more similar statements as written and to me (someone who works with the writing of other human beings every day) it is entirely understandable. That sort of error is made by every major and minor publication, it’s how they handle it which counts and here it was handled well. You can of course respond to this with a source which says that this is a major error, but I don't think that such a source exists (if it does I couldn't find it) ] (]) 21:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Whats “not math”? The difference between .0006 and .33? You sure? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 01:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::And let’s see these “every major and minor publications” that make these kinds of error.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 01:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I note the failure to provide the requested source. ] (]) 01:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::::Right back at you.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 01:59, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::::::, your turn and no stonewalling now provide the source or go away. ] (]) 02:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			***::::::Lol, those are standard corrections for minor misstatements not exaggerations of something by a factor of several hundred to push a narrative and then mocking and attacking people who point out the error and then putting up a half assed note. By your standard Daily Mail and Breitbart (both unreliable) would count as RS since they too have issued corrections in the past. No, reliable publications do not make errors of this magnitude and when they publish corrections they directly address any mistakes. Breitbart, Daily Mail or Jacobin unfortunately don’t do that.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 03:08, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			***:::::::Your source that this was "exaggerations of something by a factor of several hundred to push a narrative" and not simply an error is what? ] (]) 18:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I have to say I question your judgment in supporting option 3 "generally unreliable" over ''Jacobin'' publishing and then retracting a single erroneous sentence, and for having a bias/narrative/agenda, when you also !voted option 1 "generally reliable" for ] which routinely publishes fabricated information without retraction. Could you kindly articulate how an admittedly biased outlet with a team of fact checkers is apparently significantly worse than a think tank that churns out misinformation and disinformation ()? <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 20:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' A screenshot of a tweet documenting an already corrected error is insufficient to depreciate a reliable source. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> 16:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::There are a lot more issues about Jacobin than just a tweet, and include more recent topics after the last RfC like the Russian invasion of Ukraine. --] (]) 17:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I do not see that in the above discussion, can you link to any discussion of this? Thank you. ] <small>(])</small> 17:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{ping|Gamaliel}} Mostly ] and at ]. Kind regards,
			:::::Thank you for the links. I will repost once I've read through those discussions. ] <small>(])</small> 18:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2 at the very least, change current assessment'''. It might be easier to comment if editors agree or not to change the current category. My position is based on coverage that mixes opinion with facts and its use of unreliable sources, some of which have been deprecated by this noticeboard (like The Grayzone). I went into more detail about this at ] and at ]. --] (]) 16:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2''' (intext attribution) ] and ] cover most of the points here. Jacobin publishes opinions peice that should have intext attribution. This is how they are used in the large amount of ] that Jacobin also has. I may not like Jacobin very much but bias, opinion, or minor mistakes do not make a source unreliable. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 17:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' ]: "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable." The example given was a mistake in a book review, cubsequently corrected, about how much housing stock Blackstone owned. No reasonable editor would use this review as a source for an article on housing or Blackstone and more than one would use a reliable source on U.S. housing for an article about 19th century French poetry. ] (]) 17:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1-ish''' Jacobin are clearly a biased source but they are also clearly as reliable for facts as any other major ]. When they make mistakes, they correct themselves, and that ''improves'' their reliability, it doesn't hurt it. ] (]) 17:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2: additional considerations/bad RFC''' - based on the discussion above, evidently there's some kind of social media uproar about some thing that Jacobin published and later corrected. It's poor timing to hold an RFC on reliability both when emotions are high and when it's in response to an isolated incident, both of which are true here. But ignoring that, it seems (again from the discussion above) that ''Jacobin'' published something that was egregiously incorrect, then retracted or corrected it. That's pretty much the standard we expect of reliable publications: errors are compatible with reliability, it's how the publication responds to and corrects errors that determines reliability in this context. gives ''Jacobin'' a "high" reliability score of 1.9 (out of 10, lower scores are better), which is in the ballpark of the ''New York Times'' (1.4) and ''Washington Post'' (2.1). However, they also give it a "left bias" rating of -7 (a 20-point scale with 0 as completely unbiased), which is on the edge of their extreme ratings. Editors should consider attribution, and/or balancing this source's POV against publications more to the right. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 17:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2/3''' While BIAS usually covers issues like, it may not be entirely sufficient for advocacy media, which includes ''Jacobin''. While ''Jacobin'' is a fine publication and I've sourced it myself, the reality is it does not usually report Who/What/Why but almost exclusively publishes explainers and analysis pieces that have a designed structure. For instance, ''How Biden Embraced Trump’s Terror Smear Against Cuba'' is not an editorial or opinion piece, it's presented as straight news reporting in the form of an explainer article. But, as an encyclopedia, we obviously can't start injecting artistic wordsets like "terror smear" into articles. So merely saying that BIAS can cover the case of ''Jacobin'' is not sufficient. For the purposes of encyclopedia writing, there will never be anything chronicled by ''Jacobin'' that is appropriate for WP which we can't find a superior source for elsewhere. They don't do spot news, data journalism, or investigative reporting, which are the three ways we use newsgathering media to reference articles. Simply looking at the current issue, I don't see a single story that is actually reporting things. Each article is an opinion piece lightly packaged as an explainer. So, while I don't think ''Jacobin'' is "unreliable" ''per se'', I don't see any value of using it for the very scope-limited purpose of encyclopedia-writing. ] (]) 18:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:If you think a bunch of leftie college students support radical Islam, you’ve been drinking the ADL brand flavor aid. If you think Palestinians don’t have any reason to support Hamas and just hate Israel because they’re the bad guys, you’re still drinking the flavor aid. And if you think 71% is “all”, I can’t help you. ] (]) 02:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' for facts and 2/inline attribution otherwise for articles that are mainly opinion. The hoohah over an article that was actually about Mark Fisher and since corrected such that it doesn't even mention Blackstone seems like a one off. ] (]) 18:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Nothing in the above discussion or that I've seen in the last year leads me to deviate from my !vote in the previous RfC which was this: '''''Option 2''': mostly a partisan opinion source usable with attribution if noteworthy, but occasionally publishes well-researched pieces by experts in their fields, on topics that might not be covered in more mainstream sources, in particular on the history of the left or on socialist theory.'' I also think that the closing of the last RfC, and in particular green flagging on RSP, did not reflect the consensus of the discussion, as I argued when this came up on this board in 2023: '' I have long been unhappy with the RSP summary of the many RSN discussions of this source, where the consensus has clearly been much more negative than the summary. It is clear that several editors have major issues with its use in specific areas (e.g. Russia/Ukraine, Venezuela) and that this should be flagged, and that it publishes content by a few conspiracy thinkers (Branko Marcetic was mentioned in the last discussion, McEvoy flagged here) and again this isn't highlighted in RSP. So I'd favour a rewrite of the RSP and possibly a change from green to yellow as a better reflection of the community consensus.'' In short: I think we need to approach it in a much more case by case basis. ] (]) 18:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2''' My assessment hasn't changed from last time, jacobin publishes mostly opinion so this is largely a moot point and the rest of what they publish often contradicts itself—] 18:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''1 or 2''', I think that most of the time they should be used with attribution but they're generally reliable enough that I don't think we should be requiring attribution. I also question the need for a new RfC... It doesn't seem like there has been anything substantial since last time so this shouldn't have been opened. ] (]) 18:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Weak option 2''' per above voters (especially AD and Bob), but I won't die on that hill if the consensus ultimately feels differently. '''Strong oppose option 3''', though, for somewhat obvious reasons. ] ] <span style="color:#C8102E;"><small><sup>(])</sup></small></span> 18:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1/2''' - I don't like Jacobin. They read to me like the socialist equivalent of Christian rock. But they have an editor, publisher and corrections, and I'm reasonably sure they're not actually liars. It's an opinion outlet, like a leftist analogue of Reason. I'm not convinced coverage in Jacobin connotes notability. So I'd give them a strong "considerations apply" - attribute, not ideal for notability - ] (]) 19:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1/2''' Jacobin's fine. It's left-leaning, but it doesn't cook up facts or make shit up. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 19:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 3''' <s>or 4</s> They publish outright falsehoods and when they issue corrections these are weak and weaselly. The recent completely absurd claim in one of their articles that Blackstone owns 33% of US single family housing stock is an example (it’s actually 1/10 of 1%). Whether you’re sympathetic to their editorial position is irrelevant. Garbage is garbage and facts are facts and as an encyclopedia we can’t rely on click bait nonsense for sources.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''', with attribution for analysis and opinion pieces. The Blackstone mistake was bad, and the author's petulant attitude upon being corrected leaves much to be desired. But the error was corrected relatively promptly, and they have an editorial team on staff. I'm not in favor of downgrading a source based on a single mistake. However, Jacobin has an explicit editorial stance that informs nearly all of its articles, and if it's used for more than straightforward facts, it should probably be attributed as e.g. "the socialist magazine Jacobin". I'm open to changing my view if others can demonstrate a more sustained pattern of errors or falsehoods. ] (]) 20:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' (with caveats) due to the lack of developments since the last RfC which could actually change the conclusion of ''general'' reliability, as opposed to demonstrating fallibility or bias. I do have some sympathy with the {{tq|no media outlet, no matter how reliable, should be listed higher than option 2}} position articulated above, but I think that comes down to how we interpret "generally reliable" in practice. In other words, "additional considerations" ''always'' apply, in principle. The difference between option 1 and option 2 comes down to ''how likely'' we expect those "additional considerations" to be of practical relevance, and how exactly we should address them. ] (]) 20:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''', it doesn't seem anything has changed since the last RfC. Corrections and retractions is what a reliable source is expected to do and is a sign of reliability. Mistakes which are far greater than this are commonplace across the array of reliable sources (what matters is whether there are corrections or not) nor does partisanship equate to unreliability. Here the error appears to be about what's more or less a single sentence, an ancillary point or side-note in an opinion piece which has been corrected since. It should be treated no different a manner than any other openly partisan neworgs such as '']'' {{rspe|Reason}}. There is no requirement for reliable sources to be "neutral" or for the matter any standard that suggests newsorgs with an explicitly stated ideological position are any better or worse in matters of reliability than newsorgs that don't have an explicitly stated ideological position. ] and ] are quite clear.&nbsp;
			:Though the standard disclaimers apply which are to check for whether what they publish has ] for inclusion (not an issue of reliability), use in-text attribution with their political position made apparent when quoting opinion and that the context always matters. That there is a subreddit post critical of a error that was corrected is no basis for determining reliability of sources on Misplaced Pages or starting an RfC, so this is also a '''Bad RfC'''. This discussion has been had at a much greater depth in the ] where it was shown that the magazine in question has quite significant ] and affirmatory coverage from reliable secondary source demonstrating that they generally have a "]" which doesn't needs to be rehashed.&nbsp;<span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">] <sub>]</sub></span> 20:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Option 1: Bad RfC + L + Ratio''' Creating this RfC immediately after some sort of ostensible social media outrage (ex. I nominated ] for deletion not long after the ], and people got so upset that they brigaded it via external social media) seems like a bad idea. It's been made clear in the past that ''Jacobin'' has a perspective (like literally any media outlet) but don't sacrifice factual accuracy to get there. My previous vote remains true: "While it wears its political perspective on its sleeve, it has proven itself time and again in its robust fact-checking. The issue with conservative and reactionary ] and ]] sources on the WP:RSP isn't that they have a bias – it's that they constantly express said bias through the use of provable mis- and disinformation. Jacobin does not sacrifice factual accuracy for the sake of a bias."
			:I would say the same of any other outlet whose perspective coexists peacefully with actual facts. The sort of neoliberalism adopted by American news outlets which we categorize as generally reliable (correctly so) isn't some sort of default worldview that needs to be treated as sacred and less biased than any other. If we're allowed to point to a single incident, then I could just as easily (but wouldn't, because I'm acting in good faith) point to the NYT's 2002–2003 reporting about Iraq and WMDs which was so unbelievably mistaken and grounded in literally nothing that ] to falsely luring Americans into supporting ] based on lies, yet Misplaced Pages (even in the days when that story was reasonably fresh) would balk at the idea of calling them 'marginally reliable', let alone 'generally unreliable'. Meanwhile, this one is literally just a typo in a single article – a bad typo, but one anyone with a brain could understand didn't reflect reality and which was quickly corrected. Reading some of the stories on the front page right now, they report on events similar to what would be covered in a magazine like the generally reliable '']'' and contain no obvious factual errors. <b>]</b> ] 21:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Option 2''', mainly per u:BobFromBrockley. The Blackrock error was quickly corrected, so I don't hold it against them. Consider this quote from ] {{tquote|Anglo-conservatives sometimes fantasize about reuniting the dominions ... where workers could be exploited freely.}} A not-insignificant percentage of the content supported by Jacobin is of similar nature. ]<sub>]</sub> 21:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' A screenshot from Reddit detailing an error which was corrected is not reason to lower our consideration of the reliablity of the publication. ] is generally reliable, not always reliable. Admittedly the publication does contain a lot of opinion peices, however that is already covered by ] and ]. Notably, ] is similarly heavy on opinion pecies and community consensus is that it is ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 22:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2''' Jacobin is basically the left-wing equivalent to the right-wing British Magazines Spiked and The Spectator. Like these publications, most of its content is opinion orientated, and citing less opinion-focused sources should be preferred. It's clear that the current "generally reliable" rating is suggesting to readers of RSP that Jacobin's opinionated content is usable carte blanche without caveat, which I do not think is accurate. ] (]) 22:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: Some Jacobin pieces have openly pushed 9/11 conspiracy theories , as well as conspiracy theories about the Euromaidan which have not been retracted. The Green RSP rating has mistakenly led people to believe these pieces were reliable , ] ] (]) 22:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You should probably read farther than the headline. ] (]) 23:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::: The pieces (which are both by staff writer Branko Marcetic) are strongly slanted, but you're perhaps right that saying they are "pushing conspiracy theories" is going a bit far. ] (]) 23:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::"The CIA bungled intel pre-9/11" is somewhat the opposite of a conspiracy theory since it ''literally attributes to incompetence what conspiracists attribute to malice''. ] (]) 14:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			* (Summoned by ping in this thread) '''Bad RFC / No listing''' just as in 2021. Or '''Option 2''', it is a liberal analysis magazine, to be considered frequently as ]. See you at the next 1-day social media hysteria. ] (]) 22:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*: <small>This doesn't really matter for the purposes of the RFC, but ''Jacobin'' is not remotely liberal. It's far left, and quite anti-liberal. --] (]) 22:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) </small>
			*::For whatever far left and anti-liberal mean in the US, I guess so. It does not change my point at all. ] (]) 22:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I find it really funny when Americans see somebody holding mainstream social democratic politics and start calling them extreme. ] (]) 22:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1'''. Correcting a mistake is a sign of reliability. The normal caveats about bias/opinion and attribution apply, but not seeing enough to move it down to 2. -- ] - <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 23:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' The current summary at ] acknowledges that Jacobin is biased and that editors should take care when using it, which is exactly how it should be. Bias and adherence to factual accuracy are two different things; neutrality is not objectivity and vice versa. We do not need to demote it purely for being biased. Agree with others that an RfC being started based on a Reddit thread of a screenshot of a tweet of an editor who made a mistake which was ultimately corrected is a bit silly. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 23:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' as per the analysis by Selfstudier, XOR, and Tayi. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 23:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' ] already has certain considerations and it doesn't mean that 100% of what is published can make it to WP. Editors are expected to use their judgement. The article in question is a ]. I don't see any reason for downgrading them based on a reddit thread. ] (]) 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' This entire RfC appears to be politically motivated and is predicated on a correction of a sentence that mixed up "third largest" with "a third of". Many other mainline newspapers have made similar, if not worse, errors before. The question is whether corrections were made when such errors were pointed out. And the correction was made here, meeting requirements of reliability. This is likely also about an opinion article, which makes this even more pointless. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Weapons of mass destruction from the New York Times? Was that ever retracted? '']''<sup>]</sup> 11:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''3'''. If you can't get a better, more disinterested outfit than ''Jacobin'' to vouch for a given fact, that's poissibly a problem. Maybe the fact just isn't important enuff to use, seeing as nobody else has seen fit to bother reporting it.
			:It's not a matter of some particular instance about mistakes regarding mixing up "third largest" with "a third of" or whatever. Heck everybody does stuff like that. The ''NYTimes'' has has published more (unintentionally) misleading or plain-wrong charts than I've had hot meals. I mean, ''Nature'' finding that "among the 348 documents that we found to include the ] 'fact' that 80% of the world's biodiversity is found in the territories of indigenous peoples] are 186 peer-reviewed journal articles, including some in ], ], and ], and 19 news articles targeted at a specialist audience." Imagine that. I would guess that that's largely because "puts indigenous peoples in a good light" trumps "is true" in the ''emotional hind-brain'' of the leather-elbow-patch set. It's not a lefty thing in particular, right-wingers are just as bad I'm sure.
			:Which just strengthens my point, there're no blinders like ideological blinders, so its not so much a matter of how many fact-checkers you have as in how you maybe are presenting facts which, while individually true, are cherry picked or incomplete or out of context or one-sided or otherwise misleading. It might not even be intentional, exactly. Mind-sets are like that. Better to stick with ''Time'' or other people who are more into just blandly attracting a broad readership rather than with people who have points to make.
	{{reftalk}}
			:They're big and smart enough that reporting their ''opinions'' are worthwhile, of course. "According to ''Jacobin'', consumption of oligarchs is (due to their high protein-to-fat ratio) a potential avenue for ameliorating world hunger" is fine. As long as we include the qualifier. ] (]) 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	====Reliable sources using ADL====
			::{{Reply|Herostratus}} not to backseat comment but if "They're big and smart enough that reporting their opinions are worthwhile, of course. "According to Jacobin, consumption of oligarchs is (due to their high protein-to-fat ratio) a potential avenue for ameliorating world hunger" is fine." isn't that a 2? I'm in much the same boat and offered a split 1/2, my understanding is that a 3 shouldn't be used for opinion. ] (]) 18:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	Per ], {{tquote|how accepted and high-quality reliable sources use a given source provides evidence, positive or negative, for its reliability and reputation}}. In fact ADL data is widely used by RS
			:::Backseat comments are totally fine. I live for them. I'm not sure about the details of our rule, but aren't ''all'' publications are completely reliable ''for their contents''? If the ''News of the World'' says "the moon is made of green cheese" we can certainly say "According to the ''News of the World'', the moon is made of green cheese" if for some reason that was useful. The ref is just so the reader can check that they did indeed print that. Similarly for any opinion or other statement. Since all entities are reliable for their own contents, I assume we are not talking at all about that. Why would we.
	# . The numbers are attributed, there is no criticism of their methodology.
	# . The numbers are attributed, there is no criticism of their methodology.
	# . The numbers are attributed, there is no criticism of their methodology.
	# . The numbers are attributed, there is no criticism of their methodology.
	# . The numbers are attributed and there is some criticism of the approach by The Philly Palestine organisation.
			:::What we are talking about is: if entity X says "FBI stats say that African-American violent crime was up 50% in Los Angeles in 2024", can we say that ''in our own words'' because we can be confident that it is true because we know that entity X has a good fact-checking operation? Can we be very very sure that entity X would also point out if violent crime for ''all'' races was also up 50%? Can we be very very sure that this increase is not because the FBI started using a new definition of "violent crime", because entity X would surely point that out? Can we be very very sure that violent crime in the city of Los Angeles is steady and the increase is purely from Los Angeles County (or whatever), because entity X would surely point that out? In other words -- can we be very very sure that entity X would not cherry-pick some facts and leave out others because they are here to make points? We want to be careful about being led by the nose by these people. ] (]) 22:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	So it's clear that RS do not treat ADL numbers as unreliable and if we deprecate ADL we'd be fail to follow our RS guidelines. ]<sub>]</sub> 13:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::I think the thing is our due weight policy says that due weight (noteworthiness) is apportioned based on the amount of attention given in reliable sources. I take that to mean opinion in generally reliable sources is worth reporting; opinion in generally unreliable sources isn’t. ] (]) 14:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The Daily Mail is not reliable for its own contents, having doctored its archives. ] (]) 00:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' The author's attitude certainly leaves much to be desired... but I don't think a single mistake that was quickly fixed – in a blog piece, which generally wouldn't even be cited except in very limited circumstances and with attribution per ] – is a good enough reason to downgrade their reliability. ] (]) 07:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2''' My opinion is unchanged from the previous RfC. It is absurd that we've opened up another RfC over a minor issue that was quickly corrected, all because a few neoliberal redditors got mad about it. I think citations to ''Jacobin'' should require attribution, but trying to tar them as unreliable over this one case is ridiculous. Log off Reddit, there is nothing worthwhile to be found there. --] (]) 09:59, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I don’t think a bunch of sources, no matter how reliable, uncritically repeating a single report is a good measure of general reliability. ] (]) 16:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2'''. I concur with other editors that this RFC should never have been opened. Please be more considerate of your fellow editors' time. ] (]) 14:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::@] Your personal opinion on this doesn't matter. I suggest you familiarize yourself with ]. It means precisely what @] said here, namely that the fact that undisputable reliable sources uncritically repeat claims by source X, confers some reliability on source X in and of itself. ] (]) 18:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2''' possibly Option 3. I don't see that the source is any better than it was in 2021. Per {{u|Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d}}'s previous comments and references from the 2021 RfC copied below as well as this recent incident. Yes, making a mistake and correcting it is good but when the mistake is so egreious and the author attacks people who note the error how much faith should we put in the source? Last time I also noted that per Adfont's media review (not a RS but still worth a look) this source is more biased than Breitbart!
	:::It's uncritical in the sense of the news outlets neither praise nor bemoan the ADL as a source. It's not really news either. All the pieces are just churnalistic regurgitations of the findings of the ADL (almost certainly from a press release). The pieces just say: the ADL said 'this', without conveying any real sense of the outlets' trust in the ADL as a source whatsoever beyond acknowledging its basic existence as an organisation that draws up tallies of stuff. ] (]) 21:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			::{{tq| Normally, we put these extremely ideological sources in the Option 2 category (e.g., Salon {{RSP|Salon}}, Townhall {{RSP|Townhall}}). Jacobin obviously doesn't report straight news, so it (i) always needs to be attributed and (ii) check to see if it complies with ]. However, Jacobin has additional issues. Its stated political mission is to: {{tq|centralize and inject energy into the contemporary socialist movement}} . So it is more in line with an advocacy group than a news source. Also, it has pretty fringe views. ] identifies Jacobin as part of the alt-left . It's pretty fringe-y on topics concerning Venezuela , the USSR/Communism , and anti-semitism , . I would avoid using Jacobin for those topics. But if you need a socialist/Marxist opinion on something, then Jacobin is definitely a good source to use. ] (]) 21:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC) <u>Based upon Noonlcarus's comment, Jacobin does seem to frequently use deprecated/unreliable sources for facts. Some examples include Alternet {{RSP entry|AlterNet}} , Daily Kos {{RSP entry|Daily Kos}} , Raw Story {{RSP entry|The Raw Story}} , The Canary {{RSP entry|The Canary}} , and the Electronic Intifada {{RSP entry|The Electronic Intifada}} .] (]) 04:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)</u>}}
	:All of these uses are attributed to the ADL, so while it's not zero evidence of reliability, it's also not strong evidence. ] (]) 19:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			:As I mentioned above, when a source is this biased we have to ask if that level of bias is going to have too great an impact on both the weight they give various facts thus leading to questionable conclusion and their ability to verify otherwise factual claims as we saw here. I think that puts the source deep into the use with caution territory ] (]) 18:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::@] Your argument here is strange. The whole ] policy with regard to usage by high reliability newspapers is '''talking about cases where claims are attributed to another source.''' How else would you know that high reliability newspaper is citing a specific source, if it doesn't attribute it??? Newspaper don't carry footnotes like scholarly articles. ] (]) 19:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
			::And yet you rated the Heritage Foundation at 2/3 below and didn't find any problem with their extreme ideological bent, saying in their defense that deprecating the foundation {{tq|would reflect more on the biases of editors than on the true quality of the source and would again push Misplaced Pages away from the goal of collecting knowledge}}. This is a group that is regularly equated in academic best sources with fascism such as in:
	:I agree that ADL is a good source, with attribution, on statistics on antisemitic incidents. None of this has to do with ADL's pro-Israel advocacy though? ''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 22:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
			::# ''Neo-fascist trends in education: neo-liberal hybridisation and a new authoritarian order'' Díez-Gutiérrez, Enrique-Javier, Mauro-Rafael Jarquín-Ramírez, and Eva Palomo-Cermeño, Journal for Critical Education Policy Studies (JCEPS). Sep2024, Vol. 22 Issue 2, p125-169
	::response in your talk page. ] (]) 19:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
			::# ''Pandemic abandonment, panoramic displays and fascist propaganda: The month the earth stood still.'' By: McLaren, Peter, Educational Philosophy & Theory, 00131857, Feb 2022, Vol. 54, Issue 2
	Adding several new citations of ADL statements about antisemitism that were cited uncritically by reliable newspaper sites in the last few days since @] published his list on April 9:
			::# ''THE ANTI-DEMOCRACY THINK TANK.'' By: Stewart, Katherine, New Republic, 00286583, Sep2023, Vol. 254, Issue 9 <small>(note that the think tank that they call "The West Point of American Fascism" in this article is the ] but that they refer to Heritage as participating in Claremont events.)</small>
			::#''The Road Ahead Fighting for Progress, Freedom, and Democracy,'' Weingarten, Randi, American Educator. Fall2024, Vol. 48 Issue 3, p2-9. 8p.
			::So I guess my question is one of consistency: do you believe Jacobin is more ideologically compromised than the fascist-adjacent Heritage foundation? If not why do you believe that the Heritage Foundation is more valuable to the "goal of collecting knowledge" than Jacobin? ] (]) 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You are missing a major difference. HF isn't a media source, they are a think tank. Jacobin is a media source, not a think tank. I've argued that all think tanks should be used with great care and in particular we should generally not cite them unless an independent RS points to their work. So the question is can we cite HF when a RS mentions the views/claims/etc of HF with respect to the article topic. In that regard I'm suggesting we treat them more like a primary source vs a RS. Jacobin is different and the relevant question is can we treat them like a regular RS as we do with many other news media sources. If Jacobin publishes a claim about an article subject should we cite them? I argue they should be evaluated by the same standards we use for news media sources. By that standard it's strong bias etc means we should use it's claims and reports with caution and should question if they have weight to justify inclusion. In your post above you provided a list of texts but absent links I can't see what they say nor if their arguments are sound or crap but they don't impact the distinction I've made. ] (]) 21:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The list of texts are available via Misplaced Pages library which is why I provided bibliographical information rather than links as links to material on WP library don't work. With the exception of New Republic all are academic journals. And now please answer my original question: do you believe Jacobin is more ideologically compromised than the Heritage Foundation? ] (]) 21:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If you want to cite those sources to support an argument you should tell us what they say or at least why you think they support your position. As for your question, I already answered. It doesn't matter if the HF is more or less compromised because the purpose of each is different. When it comes to topics of automobiles Honda is more compromised than the AP but they also might be a better source if we are asking about stratified charge combustion in automobile engines. ] (]) 21:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::On this charge I will defend Springee. I don't necessarily agree with them but I'm not seeing the dissonance in their arguments, especially as they seem to be going 2/3 on both (there is not formal vote here but that seems to be the upshot of what they're saying). Their slighlty idiosyncratic argument about the purspose of the source being primary is also one which they've been making consistently for years. With all due respect I think you're being too hard on Springee. ] (]) 21:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I take the idea that a publication being openly social democratic is ''too biased to be reliable'' personally offensive. Anywhere outside the United States Jacobin would be seen as barely left of the political center. But I will concede that Springee is being consistent. And I actually agreed that think tanks should be treated as primary sources. Frankly, were Springee to be more reasonable on the "political bias" overreach, we might otherwise be agreeing. ] (]) 21:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::We may not be disagreeing at all given we both are giving them a "2". I'm arguing that their bias is too much to make them a 1. The possible 3, the same score I gave them last time, is a concern regarding things like the issue that started the recent discussion. I was about to post something about really disliking the RSP's simplistic bucketing. It's really not a good system as we really should put more effort into asking if a source is appropriate for the claims being supported and when an encyclopedia should be citing strongly biased sources in general. If we need to use such a strongly biased source is the information DUE? ] (]) 21:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::We do agree on disliking the RSP bucketing system. My personal opinion is no news media source should be treated as a blanket "generally reliable" because reliability is contextual. However I do think that Jacobin is, from a global perspective, not in any way ideologically extreme. Social democracy is a normal left-of-center political position. The extreme-right shift of US politics over the last few decades makes them seem like outliers but that's the real bias problem right there. ] (]) 22:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Jacobin is not merely social democratic; their page states they offer {{tq|socialist perspectives}} and approvingly includes quotes describing them as supporting {{tq|radical politics}} and {{tq|very explicitly on the radical left, and sort of hostile to liberal accommodationism}}. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 22:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I would strongly advise against getting too side-tracked by having a conversation about "social democracy" vs "democratic socialism" (same goes for any arguments over distinctions between "left" vs "liberal" in this thread). I can say from experience that these semantics rabbitholes are shockingly deep, and they're not at all necessary or helpful for this RfC. All I'll say is that these terms ''are'' commonly used as synonyms by at least some people, and the "Ideology and reception" section of ] notes {{tq|the political diversity of contributors, incorporating "everyone from social democratic liberals to avowed revolutionaries"}}, so I don't think either you or Simonm223 are wrong on this. Different people are gonna use different terms and apply different meanings to each of them. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 03:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{tq|Anywhere outside the United States Jacobin would be seen as barely left of the political center.}} Where outside the United States are you talking about? The world where ]? Where ]? Is it Japan, where the conservative ] has been in power since 1955? Or China, where a media outlet that is as critical of the ] as Jacobin is of the ] would have long been banned, and their writers arrested? I think we all need a reality check here, especially if we want to represent reality in our articles. ] (]) 03:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::While I can't speak for them, I'm guessing they probably had in mind specifically other western democracies, as it's common for European countries to have a mainstream Socialist Party with an ideology listed as social democracy (to name a few: ], ], ], ], etc).
			::::::::I'm comfortable speculating this is their argument because it's one that's often repeated in American progressive-left circles. This argument is usually presented as follows: ] is viewed as the furthest left one can go in America, the things his supporters want are not radical to other developed countries (paid time off, universal healthcare, etc), therefore what is far left in America is only moderately left elsewhere.
			::::::::Not saying I entirely agree or disagree with that argument, either how Simonm223 phrased it or how I interpreted it. Just saying I think they had in mind comparable democracies, not the entire world.
			::::::::<b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 16:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Yeah. I don't feel the need to put a million qualifiers on a comment on a WP discussion board when all I really need to say is that the United States has an abnormal political compass compared to its peers. But also there used to be lots of socialists, for instance, throughout the Middle East. American allies killed most of them. ] (]) 18:33, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::This has become a discussion about Overton windows rather than the source. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 22:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 3 or 2''' - Right-wing outlets that mix opinions in their articles, selectively choose facts to promote a political agenda, or sloppily misrepresent the truth have rightly been marked as unreliable ages ago. There is no reason to have a different standard for other political positions. And regardless of that, outlets that do that cannot be ''relied on'' (i.e. are unreliable) to present an accurate picture of the facts on a given topic, nor are their writers' opinions noteworthy in our articles. Op-eds from even mainstream papers like NYT, WaPo, etc. are routinely removed as sources; outlets like ''Jacobin'' that consist entirely of such articles should likewise not be used (and we have already done this for right-wing opinion outlets like ''Quillette''). The green checkmark at RSP misleads editors into thinking opinions and claims published in ''Jacobin'' are more noteworthy than they really are. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 22:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Jacobin's ] is to promote socialism, and it has a strong ideological perspective that makes it unreliable for coverage of contentious geopolitical issues, hard news, or factual reporting. However, it may be used with caution for topics within its area of expertise (such as the theory and history of socialism, labor movements, and socialist cultural commentary), provided proper attribution and corroboration from neutral sources are applied. ] (]) 03:03, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::This is no more a good argument than it would be to state that the raison d'etre of X publication is to promote capitalism and the geo-political interests of the United States, and it has a strong ideological perspective that makes it unreliable for coverage of contentious geopolitical issues, hard news, or factual reporting.
			*::I could apply that faulty argument to shitloads of mainstream US publications that are currently considered to be generally reliable. '']''<sup>]</sup> 05:19, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1'''. Folks have said it well already so I won't belabor the point. I can't really imagine an occasion when I would cite ''Jacobin'', but I consider them roughly a left-wing equivalent of ''The Economist'' or ''Reason'' (also publications I'd be unlikely to cite –– all three of these are usually rather predictable and tend to offer shallow analysis). I wasn't sure how we list those other two so I checked RSP just now and saw that they're 1s. Yes, OTHERSTUFF is a poor argument, but I was more interested in getting a baseline on where the community draws the line between 1 and 2. With respect, I object to Crossroads' comparison to ''Quillette'', which leans heavily into platforming fringe ideas and displays little editorial oversight. (Interestingly, on a hoax published in ''Quillette'', revealing the latter's abysmal editorial practices, courtesy of ]) ] (]) 01:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Personally I don’t see Reason and Economist as equivalent, and was surprised to see Reason green flagged for the same reason that I don’t think Jacobin should be. That is, whereas Economist is mostly reporting and some opinion, both Reason and Jacobin are mostly opinion and some reporting. The Jacobin piece on the Quillette hoax looks good to me, but everything else they’ve published by that author wouldn’t be usable for facts as they’re pure op eds. I’d put the Spectator and National Review in the category as Jacobin and Reason. (Whereas Spiked and American Conservative are worse, red flag territory rather than amber.) ] (]) 15:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Additional considerations apply'''. As I indicated in the ] which I started, the mere fact that Jacobin thought it appropriate to publish a statement that ] "owns a third of US housing stock" indicates that they do not do adequate fact-checking before publishing articles. Therefore, one should attempt to corroborate any facts they publish with more reliable sources before relying on Jacobin to support any factual statements in articles. ] (]) 03:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1'''. Our ] is explicit that {{tq|reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective}}. I may not personally love the political perspective of ''Jacobin'', but they don't go out of their way to platform disinformation that flatly contradicts academic consensus about reality. Regarding ''Jacobin'' as unreliable on the grounds of its bias would require evidence that said bias leads it to regularly publish misinformation and untruths. I haven't seen this established.{{pb}}Moreover, the error brought up that somehow has sparked this RFC was both A) corrected in a timely manner, which is what we ''expect'' from a reliable source; and B) a case where ], as the original source was a book review of several books written by Mark Fisher. If cited, it should be cited to warrant information about Fisher or his books or the genre he wrote in, etc. The Blackstone number was {{tq|Information provided in passing}}, and we already know that such info occasionally {{tq|may not be reliable}}, and so we use our best judgment as editors, citing and reading a wide variety of sources and going to the ]. For a topic like ], looks like ''Jacobin'' is a good resource. For Blackstone and housing, try from the journal '']''. Not every source is perfect at every subject, but when a source has a known editorial staff, issues corrections to publications, and is grounded in reality, it's reliable, even if I wouldn't personally enjoy talking politics with the editor.{{pb}}Finally, when a piece published in ''Jacobin'' is an opinion piece, we can just treat it as such, ]. ''The Economist'' and ''The Wall Street Journal'' publish a lot of opinion pieces too, yet GREL they've remained. As the perennial list says of ''The Economist'', {{tq|editors should use their judgement to discern factual content—which can be generally relied upon—from analytical content, which should be used in accordance with the guideline on opinion in reliable sources}}. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 06:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Option 3''' or '''Option 2''', long overdue for the reasons already set out in this thread. And frankly, the idea that a magazine whose name is derived from the people who instituted the ] was ever acceptable w/o issue is offputting by itself. ] (]) 23:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/04/11/adl-antisemitism-report-card-gives-top-schools-failing-grades/73294604007/
			*:For the record, the that in naming the magazine, he was thinking of '']'', a book about the ], not the French. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 01:24, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Not that that is relevant anyway when assessing reliability. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::''The Black Jacobins'' is named so because the author analogizes the actions of the Haitians to that of the French Jacobins. It's just adding an extra step (not to mention that the word has a known meaning on it's face, so it's mostly irrelevant.). Regardless, it's clearly derived, and it's frankly silly to even argue semantics. ] (]) 02:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Just to be clear your argument about the name being relevant to reliability is literally arguing ]. Your objection doesn't make any sense. ] (]) 03:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I was referring to the semantics of what counts as "derived from." And no, while the name clearly doesn't ''inherently'' reflect relevance. If a source called "The KGB Times" came up on the noticeboard for reliability, it's perfectly reasonable for a person to point out "Hey, I don't think it's reliable for reasons x,y, and z, andddd the name also doesn't exactly inspire confidence." That's all I'm saying. Don't twist my statement into something it's not. ] (]) 05:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::That is arguing semantics. ] (]) 16:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::If that's your benchmark, then practically everything is arguing semantics, including this whole thread. "Jacobin publishes words -> what are the meaning of those words? (semantics) -> can we qualify those meanings as 'reliable?'" Clearly distinguishing factors, and I'm not interested in ''arguing semantics about the word "semantics"'' with you like a 12 year old. My vote's been explained, ]. ] (]) 17:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1/Keep the current RSPS summary''' I think a few people arguing for additional considerations are misremembering the current RSPS legend. ''Additional'' considerations doesn’t refer to things like weight, or bias, or that you need to attribute opinion pieces because those are all standard considerations that apply to ''all'' sources. The current RSPS summary already says (in part) {{tq|Editors should take care to adhere to the neutral point of view policy when using Jacobin as a source in articles, for example by quoting and attributing statements that present its authors' opinions, and ensuring that due weight is given to their perspective amongst others'.}} I can't find anything that indicates that's not still a perfectly good summary. ] (]) 01:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/11/business/adl-antisemitism-report-card/index.html
			*'''Option 1*''' Jacobin is a biased source, something that should obviously be considered by anyone thinking of sourcing them for anything contentious, but their reporting has never been an issue in terms of establishing basic factual information about a situation. One writer for a book review making a dumb statement that was corrected by the source doesn't change that. ] (]) 04:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/harvard-dozen-schools-receive-grade-adls-campus-antisemitism-report-ca-rcna147346
			*'''Option 1:''' Nothing of substance has been presented to suggest that this source is not GREL. Most of the reasons being presented for MREL appear to be about bias, but that is not of direct relevance to reliability unless it can be shown that any bias directly impinges somehow on its reliability. That it provides a perspective from a rarefied position on the political spectrum is a moot point in terms of reliability. Arguably it is good to have sources from all different positions on the political spectrum for the purposes of balance, but that is, again, irrelevant to its reliability. ] (]) 15:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1/2''': generally reliable, they have a correction policy. Bias for opinion pieces and essays should be taken into account, attribute accordingly. ] (]) 00:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Bad RfC''' As on . ] (]) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' I previously commented in the 2021 RfC based on ]. In particular I found persuasive. Most recently cites a ''Jacobin'' article from November 2024 positively. A major trade publication in the field of journalism still seems to find ''Jacobin'' worth citing as "demonstrat convincingly" how Harris lost the pro-labor vote in the 2024 election. Why should we not follow ''CJR''s lead? The arguments seem to be (1) ''Jacobin'' recently issued a major retraction and (2) ''Jacobin'' has a left-wing bias. I could buy into (1) if they constantly issued retractions, but no one has shown that that is the case. (2) is contrary to ]. Altogether, I don't see why we should treat ''Jacobin'' differently from reliable but right-of-center-biased publications like '']'' or '']''. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— ]]</span> 07:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2 or Option 3''': Not only is Jacobin an extremely biased, ideologically charged source, but their reporting has been called into question multiple times. At the very least, additional considerations do apply. ] (]) 13:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2'''. This is not a ]. Its stated purpose is . Compare to the missions of the NYT: ; or the BBC: . The NYT and the BBC are both biased (every source is biased), but they do at least aim to deliver ''reporting''. Jacobin, on the other hand, is an advocacy organisation. That doesn't make it automatically unreliable, nor does that make it solely a source of opinions, but that does makes it qualitatively different from the newspapers that others have compared it to - and that is an important additional consideration worth noting. For the record, I disagree that one incident of inaccuracy is enough to downgrade a source, particularly one that was corrected. ] (]) 13:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Just because I note that my earlier !vote wasn't posted in to this section, for the avoidance of doubt, whilst I think this is a '''Bad RFC''' because there's no reason for initiating it, I support '''Option 2''' or '''Option 3''' because it is strictly an opinion site and not one that should be relied on for statements of fact about anything but itself. ] (]) 14:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1'''{{spaced en dash}}''Jacobin'' may be biased, but that has no bearing on reliability. They have many well-respected articles that have been cited by other reliable sources, have transparent editorial controls, and a demonstrated process for retraction and correction. I see a couple complaints above that ''Jacobin'' isn't a news organization; however, this isn't relevant to reliability. Just like ''The Economist'', ''Jacobin'' publishes more retrospective, interpretive articles which for certain subjects can often be ''better'' than using contemporaneous news articles. Overall this is a very '''bad RfC''' given the creator's undisclosed connection to the previous overturned RfC (see comment by {{noping|Tayi Arajakate}}) and a complete lack of any examples of ''actual uses on Misplaced Pages where the reliability is questioned''. This is as far as I can tell a knee-jerk reaction to a single example of an error on an unrelated topic in an offhand remark inside a book review, and which wasn't even used on Misplaced Pages. An absurd reason to open an RfC. <span title="Signature of Dan Leonard"><span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 4px lightskyblue, -1px -1px 4px forestgreen;font-weight:bold;">]</span> (] • ])</span> 15:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' per Silver seren and Wugapodes (and thank you for providing actual reported information on their editorial process rather than speculation, heavy irony in this whole discussion). This whole saga is based on one correction? Really? ] (]) 19:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 1''' bias has nothing to do with reliability. Meanwhile, corrections are a strong signal of reliability. --] (]) 22:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Bias has plenty to do with reliability, or can. It's a worthwhile thing to take into consideration. ] (]) 21:56, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 3/4:''' An encyclopedia should focus on high-quality, fact-driven sources. Not on ones that report the news with ''heavy'' political agendas, at least not without qualifying it. Using a highly politically charged source (of whatever political persuasion) inevitably leads to
			:# '''Bias and lack of objectivity:''' Sources with extreme political leanings present information ''very selectively'' and often distort facts to support an ideological agenda. This can lead to biased or one-sided entries that undermine neutrality. It can also lead to including content that is not encyclopedic. See ].
			:# '''Erosion of credibility:''' Misplaced Pages is expected to provide balanced, factual, and well-researched content. Reliance on politically extreme sources can damage its reputation as a reliable and neutral reference.
			:# '''Misinformation and inaccuracy:''' Sources like ''Jacobin'' often contain errors, conspiracy theories, or exaggerated claims that, when included in encyclopedia entries, could mislead readers and spread misinformation.
			:# '''Cherry-picking evidence:''' Extreme political sources may ''omit contrary evidence'' or fail to represent the full range of perspectives. This results in incomplete or skewed coverage. Critical context is lacking.
			;# '''Harm to reputation of the field:''' Normalizing unreliable content can set a dangerous precedent here. Per Misplaced Pages policy, a fact worthy of entry in an encyclopedia would be covered by ''multiple'' reliable sources. It would be difficult to "counter" each instance of citing ''Jacobin'' with another source of equal repute but on the opposite political extreme covering the same story.
			:Further, ''Jacobin'' is mostly an ''opinion'' source. While it is not the worst source in the world, it hardly among reliable sources. According to Ad Fontes Media, which monitors news value and reliability, "Ad Fontes Media rates Jacobin in the '''Hyper-Partisan Left''' category of bias and as '''Mixed Reliability/Opinion OR Other Issues''' in terms of reliability."
			:The goal of Misplaced Pages, which prioritizes reliable ], is to present information with a sense of ]. There is no shortage of such sources, and those are the ones to use. --] (]) 21:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Well said. ] (]) 21:31, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::: Thank you, {{Reply|Iljhgtn}}. I'd also like to add that {{Reply|Herostratus}} put it nicely above: "If you can't get a better, more disinterested outfit than Jacobin to vouch for a given fact, that's poissibly a problem. Maybe the fact just isn't important enuff to use, seeing as nobody else has seen fit to bother reporting it." --] (]) 21:38, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That is also a good point. I imagine that is why as a standalone source it likely should not be relied upon for reliable reporting on the facts, but that maybe it could work to bolster a claim made already by another reliable source. Option 2 of "Additional considerations" is where I am leaning. ] (]) 21:40, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The OP @] also spoke to this. ] (]) 21:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::# All sources are biased, it's a natural part of human nature. This is covered by ], if that bias effects accuracy and fact checking then that needs to be shown by examples. Biased sources are not unreliable simply because of their bias.
			::# People's opinions of Misplaced Pages are not a criteria for determining a reliable source.
			::# Instances of errors or misinformation should be shown, saying they might exist isn't evidence that they do exist.
			::# This is again covered by ].
			::# This point relates to NPOV not reliability. Editors should take ], ], and ] into account, but ultimately whether a source should be used is not the same as if a source is reliable.
			::-- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 23:06, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Detachment is specifically not required of sources per RSBIAS {{tq|"... reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective."}} -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 23:24, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{ping|Precision123}} did you employ ChatGPT or other LLM to compose this response? The structure is suspiciously similar to ChatGPT's writing style and your response is primarily platitudes with no specific examples or references to the specific policies undergirding RSP. Your sentence {{tq|Sources like Jacobin often contain errors, conspiracy theories, or exaggerated claims that, when included in encyclopedia entries, could mislead readers and spread misinformation}} is especially LLM-like and makes the spurious claim that {{tq|sources like ''Jacobin''}} may use {{tq|conspiracy theories}} which hasn't been brought up anywhere here. <span title="Signature of Dan Leonard"><span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 4px lightskyblue, -1px -1px 4px forestgreen;font-weight:bold;">]</span> (] • ])</span> 02:38, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Option 2'''. They are an analysis/opinion magazine rather than a strait news source, so their pervasive bias has to be carefully considered when assessing its use as a source. ] (]) 00:48, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Discussion: ''Jacobin''===
	https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4587901-harvard-tufts-mit-failing-grades-adl-campus-antisemitism/
			*Seeing as there's substantial disagreement in the pre-RfC section above, I've gone ahead and launched this RfC. — ]&nbsp;<sub>]</sub> 16:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	] (]) 07:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
			*:Pings to {{yo|Feminist|The wub|Thebiguglyalien|Super Goku V|Simonm223|FortunateSons|Oort1|Burrobert|ActivelyDisinterested|Hydrangeans|Vanilla Wizard|Iljhgtn|Selfstudier|Horse Eye's Back|NoonIcarus|Harizotoh9|Springee}} who commented above. — ]&nbsp;<sub>]</sub> 16:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Additional pings to {{yo|WMrapids|David Gerard|Bobfrombrockley|Shibbolethink|Crossroads|Herostratus|Dumuzid|Aquillion|Gamaliel|Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d|BSMRD|Wugapodes|Ip says|King of Hearts|Chetsford|Tayi Arajakate|MPants at work|Jlevi|The Four Deuces|Grnrchst|Szmenderowiecki|Dlthewave|Jr8825|Thenightaway|Nvtuil|Peter Gulutzan|FormalDude|Volunteer Marek|FOARP|Sea Ane|3Kingdoms|Bilorv|blindlynx|Jurisdicta|TheTechnician27|MarioGom|Novemberjazz|Volteer1}} who commented in the ]. — ]&nbsp;<sub>]</sub> 16:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I think you should also disclose that the previous RfC was initially closed by you (back then under the usernames ] and ]) and the discussions that followed at {{slink|Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Archive 6#Jacobin (magazine)}} and {{slink|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive340#Close review of the latest RfC about Jacobin's reliability}} led to an overturn on grounds of it being heavily flawed and ostensibly a ], followed by a re-close afterwards. Especially considering your statement in the above section questioning that (re)closure now, which also partially forms the basis for this RfC. Those discussions might also answer your question on why it was (re)closed in the manner it was. <span style="background-color:#B2BEB5;padding:2px 12px 2px 12px;font-size:10px">] <sub>]</sub></span> 20:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I've tried to ping everyone from the prior RfC and from the discussion above. This was done manually: I excluded 1 vanished account and I tried to ping people by their current usernames if they have changed names since then. If I missed someone, please feel free to notify them. — ]&nbsp;<sub>]</sub> 16:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Per my prior comments about space constraints I've split this to its own section. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 16:51, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I've just moved the RFC out of the discussion again. The RFC shouldn't be made a subsection of the prior discussion, due to ongoing issues with overloading on the noticeboard. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' Editors should bear in mind that reliability does not mean infallibility. It merely means we can use sources where applicable. In this case, the impeached article is a book review, which combines a description of a book and the reviewer's opinions. The only acceptable use of a book review - whoever wrote it and wherever it is published - is in an article about the book reviewed.
	==== Scholarly citations of ADL publications since 2020 from JSTOR ====
	These were found by simply putting "anti defamation league" in JSTOR search box and limiting the search to start in 2020. This yielded 164 results. To determine the relevancy of each result and its context I had to look inside the articles. This is a time-consuming process, so I did it so far for only a small number of results. I might continue with it in the following days, if required, and if time permits, but even this small collection proves that there are quite a few scholars who view the ADL as a reliable source even for scholarly work. This is relevant to the reliability question because of ].
			Ironically, there can be no article about the book because it lacks notability. It was only reviewed in Jacobin. We are basically working to prevent things that will never happen. Under current policy therefore this source could never be used.
	2024:
			Our time would be better spent ensuring that RS policy is adhered to.
	cited about antisemitism (including in the Israel-Palestine context)
			] (]) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	cited about antisemitism
			*'''Bad RFC''' because we should not be rating things just for the sake of rating things, but since we're doing this: Jacobin is clearly an opinion outlet, not a news outlet. We shouldn't be relying on them for statements of fact for that reason alone. ] (]) 17:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	cited about extreme right and antisemitism
			*:Notwithstanding my !vote above I do agree this is a bad RFC because there's not ever been an example presented of Jacobin being used to source anything even remotely questionable during the RFCBefore discussion. ] (]) 18:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Well, there was one example that generated the 2023 discussion which was Jacobin being used to source a description of the 2014 Maidan Revolution as "the far-right U.S.-backed Euromaidan protests", so that's one occasion of it being used to source something questionable. It was also by the same editor on the 9/11 attack page to source the claim that the CIA facilitated the attacks and intentionally withheld information that could have stopped the attacks.
			*::That editor is now blocked (because of their conduct on this noticeboard I think?) but they used the green flag at RSP to justify their edits. ] (]) 10:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Absolutely a bad RfC, I rolled my eyes when I was pinged about this. Nothing fundamental has changed about Jacobin's editorial line or policy since the last RfC was opened four years ago. I can't believe we're hashing this out again because of a single reddit post. --] (]) 10:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*The Jacobin author who wrote the nonsense claim that Blackstone owns 1/3 of US housing stock literally mocked the people who tried to correct him and the correction - which itself was inaccurate and weaselly - was issued only after social media pressure. This is an outlet that very obviously does not care one bit about fact checking if it gets in the way of producing click bait pieces. It’s exactly the kind of source we should NOT be using, especially as the whole media landscape is shifting that way.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	2023:
			*:They issued a correction. This is what we expect of reliable outlets. Your personal characterization of the correction as "weaselly" is your personal opinion on tone and has nothing to do with any Misplaced Pages policy. ] (]) 19:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Did this correction at least state what the correct % was? Like, the correction itself tries to make it seem like a minor overstatement rather than, you know, a completely wild exaggeration that tried to take advantage of general innumeracy. “I’m a billionaire!”. “No you’re not”. “Ok that was an overstatement”. Come on. It’s quite disappointing to see how many people are fine with misinformation, weak sourcing and “alternative facts” as long as it agrees with their ideological preconceptions. Whats even more disappointing is when these are people who are claiming to be building a factual encyclopedia. Facts are facts and garbage is garbage, regardless of whether it come from the left or right.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 03:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes facts are facts and garbage is garbage but as long as we allow garbage like ''New York "Iraq has WMDs" Times'' to be treated as a reliable source I don't see why we should treat Jacobin differently. Jacobin is compliant with Misplaced Pages's requirements. If you want to talk about tightening those requirements I'd be open to the discussion at ]. ] (]) 14:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Was the weapons of mass destruction bit ever retracted by New York Times? As far as I'm aware it wasn't. Perhaps we should be wasting community time and having a discussion about them? '']''<sup>]</sup> 14:15, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Yeah my point is just that a lot of editors are establishing a double standard where Jacobin is being held to a higher standard than what Misplaced Pages generally expects from news organizations. I would like it to be measured against the same standard as anyone else. ] (]) 14:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Agreed. I'm not the biggest fan of them because there's so much oped stuff but we've never thought that reason to downgrade ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 14:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Exactly. And that is kind of what I was getting at when I suggested the right venue for what {{noping|Volunteer Marek}} was concerned about was ]. If we allow these kinds of sources then we allow these kinds of sources. I would be happy to restrict these kinds of sources more than we do but it has to be handled at a policy level rather than via exceptions to present policy. ] (]) 14:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:This does not appear to be an outlet generally characterized as producing click bait. ] (]) 01:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is not the case that a book review can ''only'' be used in an article about that specific book. For example, they are frequently cited in biographies of authors, in order to demonstrate that those authors meet ]. And an article about the pedagogy of some subject could cite reviews of textbooks about that subject. ] (]) 20:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			== The Heritage Foundation ==
	cited on hate crimes
			<!-- ] 16:01, 13 February 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1739462471}}
			{{Moved discussion to|WP:Requests for comment/The Heritage Foundation|2=Due to how large the discussion has become, and size constraints on the noticeboard, this discussion has been moved to it's own page. <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 11:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			== RfC: TheGamer ==
	cited about racism
			{{atop|OP has withdrawn the discussion. 💽 ] 💽 🌹 ⚧ <sup>(''']''')</sup> 21:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			<s>TheGamer seems to be either user-generated content, or slop listicles. Additionally, it seems to source it's content largely from dubious YouTube content, Reddit posts, or Twitter/X threads. However it is listed as a source in articles such as ] purely in relation to one listicle that ranks Flowey in relation to other characters. What is the reliability of this site?
			* Option 1: ]
	cited about extremism in general
			* Option 2: ]
			* Option 3: ]
			* Option 4: ]
			]</s>
	cited about extreme right
			<span style="font-family:Kurale; color:#ff0000;">]]</span> 02:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	cited about extreme right
			* '''Bad RfC'''. While begun in good faith, this RfC is malformed. The opening statement is not {{tq|neutrally worded and brief}} as our ]. I would also ask why the ] about ''TheGamer'' available at the list maintained by ] isn't considered sufficient. If this is at root a page-specific concern about ], as the opening statement causes it to appear to be, the matter can surely be handled better at ]. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 02:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			Nevermind then. I'll delete the info on the Flowey page that provides no encyclopedic value. The reason I proposed this originally was because TheGamer's content has gotten worse and more sloppy since 2020.<span style="font-family:Kurale; color:#ff0000;">]]</span> 04:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abottom}}
			== Ontario Bar Association and Artificallawyer ==
	2022:
			Is this sigcov , reliable for ]? ] (]) 09:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	cited about racism in the middle east
			:The first link goes to a summary of a detailed software review by Friedrich Blase, the “Innovator-in-Residence” of the Ontario Bar Association. It looks like Dr. Blase, whose references writings on legal technology, might qualify as a subject matter expert, so I would be inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt. The second link goes to a blog, which would not be a reliable source. ] (]) 18:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Ok, thank you very much. ] (]) 22:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			==''Pirate Wires''?==
	cited about antisemitism
			'']'' as an "American media company reporting at the intersection of technology, politics, and culture." It doesn't shout "reliable source" to me (feels more like a group blog), but could somebody else take a look at this and help me determine if (a) its articles, or (b) its claims about itself should be cited in articles or BLPs, ? — '''] &#124; ] &#124;''' 20:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Wouldn’t this be an aboutself citation anyway? I would be more concerned about primary/OR here in that case.
			:Regarding the source: they are likely to be pretty biased, but according to the page linked, they seems sufficiently reliable for this, unless someone can dig up large-scale issues I missed. Employees, proper funding etc. all seem to be fine. ] (]) 21:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: So I'd be fine enough trimming it to something to the effect of {{talk quote inline|as of January 2025, his profile at the online publisher '']'' lists him as a senior editor|q=yes}}? I just wanted to make sure ''PW'' was something worth mentioning at all, or if it was more akin to 'he's the senior editor this super-serious blog' and name-dropping a site that bore no mention. — '''] &#124; ] &#124;''' 21:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I’m not sure, but think being descriptive is fine for “articles about Misplaced Pages” and stuff, “critical“ is probably better coming from a specific source, even if it’s obvious. With everything else, it’s probably a question of DUE, not RS. ] (]) 22:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::: I'd eschew calling out any of his particular articles over others, since there's... no reason to, right? Without reliable third-party sourcing, they're no more notable or inclusion-worthy than his others. — '''] &#124; ] &#124;''' 22:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I think this is a case for ], but it seems like a reasonable option ] (]) 22:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			: Pirate Wires has a strong right wing "libertarian tech bro" bent to its coverage, unsurprising given its links to Peter Thiel. The way it frames events is often strongly slanted, sometimes to the point of being misleading. Take for instance the recent story claiming that the WMF had been taken over by "Soros-backed operatives" . I would argue that this framing is conspiratorial and hyperbolic. I think it might sometimes be usable with caution for uncontroversial facts, but more objective sources should be preferred. ] (]) 14:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: Here's a Business Insider story on Pirate Wires that gives a good sense of its ethos . ] (]) 14:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Invoking ] to attack an organization is not a good start for Pirate Wires, a new publication that does not have much of a reputation at this point. Definitely not ], and I would avoid using this publication for ]. —&nbsp;''''']'''&nbsp;<small>]</small>'' 02:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I wouldn't call it a "group blog", it just has a niche audience in the tech industry. It is certainly more factually based than Fox News. The article you linked is using it problematically though. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 14:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			] (]) 14:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Solana is the founder and operator of Pirate Wires, so maybe it's wise to consider his pieces in particular self-published. No idea the level of editorial rigour other contributors are under though. ] (]) 14:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	cited about antisemitism in Europe
			* ''Pirate Wires'' should be considered Generally reliable. The information that they publish, though perhaps from a libertarian or right wing political slant, is generally truthful/accurate and therefore should be considered ] unless someone is able to provide substantial evidence and examples that disprove this. ] (]) 16:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:It's Mike Solana's blog. ] (]) 17:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Do you have an evidentiary basis for your claim? I ask because I was recently described in a Pirate Wires article as a member of a powerful pro-Hamas group, and while this was entertaining in its foolishness, the important point for RSN is that it was a factual error. The article contained many inaccuracies about various things, and it was clear that no attempt had been made to avoid errors and erroneous conclusions. So, using it for BLPs might be unwise, and the notion that it is "generally truthful/accurate" seem highly questionable. Of course, I only have one data point, so it could be an outlier, but I doubt it. ] (]) 17:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yeah. I was not happy about Pirate Wires being used for that whole fiasco. But as for the evidence look above at the link {{U|Selfstudier}} provided in which Mike Solana says, "I am the overwhelming majority owner of pirate wires, with no board. nobody tells me what to write or cover, nor will they ever." ] (]) 17:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::When the editor in chief is also the owner and there is no editorial board for him to answer to and also he writes a lot of the content I don't know how we could describe it as anything other than a personal blog. Even if he sometimes brings in guest writers it's still quite obviously ''his personal thing.'' ] (]) 17:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::There are many other editors from what I can tell, such as Ashley Rindsberg. It is not even close to a blog. ] (]) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Ashley Rindsberg, the author of the article with inaccuracies and erroneous conclusions. For Misplaced Pages's purposes, its main utility may be as a tool to identify potential disinformation vectors that could degrade the integrity of Misplaced Pages content. ] (]) 10:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::What "inaccuracies and erroneous conclusions" are you referring to? Can you cite specific examples please and quote from the source directly? Also, are there other reliable sources which then criticize PW for "inaccuracies and erroneous conclusions" or is that ] and/or your own conclusion being reached? ] (]) 17:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Considering that comment and the fact that founder ] is the chief marketing officer of ], Pirate Wires has a major ] with all of the individuals and organizations associated with Founders Fund, and is a non-] source with respect to all related topics. —&nbsp;''''']'''&nbsp;<small>]</small>'' 03:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Pirate Wires is trashy far-right culture wars content. It is at best a group blog - ] (]) 10:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Marginally reliable, there seems to be a pretty wide spread quality wise because they seem to allow their writer a loose leash. This means that some articles are very good and some are very bad. Personally I've found them solidly reliable for the more wonkish techy stuff but have a lot of issues when they start to cover politics or culture/society in general. Crypto seems to be the only blindspot within their otherwise area of expertise, their crypto coverage is just awful and should be avoided like the plague. When used I would attribute and I would strongly advise against any use for BLP not covered by ABOUTSELF. I agree that pieces by Solana should be treated as self published and that coverage by Pirate Wire is not to be considered independent of the Founders Fund. ] (]) 18:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Need context before coming to RSN ===
	cited about extremism in general
			At this point, the source is used in only 7 articles in mainspace. . in general, RSN really shouldn't be used to approve sources ahead of time, editors exercise their own discretion, debate merits of source in the talk page of article, and come here if the same source is debated over and over again, or if reliability is still at issue. ] (]) 16:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Per <s>{{U|Slatersteven}}</s> its founder describes it as a ] - it should be treated accordingly. ] (]) 17:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Not me. ] (]) 17:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Oh dear did I misread? OOPS should be per {{U|Selfstudier}} apologies. I will strike above. ] (]) 17:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:It is not ] and its founder merely said things along the lines of "I am not bought and paid for nor a mouthpiece for any billionaire" etc. Now I do not know the veracity of that statement for sure, but I do not see that Mike Solana declared Pirate Wires to be SPS or a blog. It has numerous other independent journalists and appears to run as a full-fledged journalistic organization like any other, with their own right leaning or right-libertarian bias of course. But bias is not a reason for a source to otherwise be deprecated or considered SPS or anything else, it is just the nature of nearly every source that some bias to one direction or another is to be expected. ] (]) 14:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::But they don't have any indication of editorial controls, or a fact-checking process, or any of the things that an ] would have; neither is there any reason to think they have a particular {{tq|reputation for fact-checking and accuracy}}. A statement like "I am the overwhelming majority owner of pirate wires, with no board. nobody tells me what to write or cover, nor will they ever" makes it pretty clear that it's not structured the way we'd expect a RS to be structured. I'm with the editors above who describe it as a blog - there's just nothing here that even has the ''shape'' of an RS. The fact that the person who runs it sometimes also includes guest posts by other people doesn't change the fact that there's no editorial board, no source of fact-checking, and most of all no reputation. Like... what makes you think that it's a ], according to the criteria we use? Where do you feel its reliability comes from? --] (]) 20:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yeah by that criteria this is a SPS, one guys blog is still one guys blog even if they let their friends post. ] (]) 18:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Usage in ] ===
	cited about extremism in general
			Is the Pirate Wires piece by ] a reliable source of claims for the ] article? Rindsberg has published other content about Misplaced Pages on Pirate Wires, including . —&nbsp;''''']'''&nbsp;<small>]</small>'' 04:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It's at best, usable for the attributed opinion of Rindsberg only, but even then, it's obviously polemical and partisan. There's lots of right-wing criticism of Misplaced Pages that I personally find disingenuous, but inevitably an article on "Ideological bias on Misplaced Pages" is going to have to include some partisan sourcing, but not framing it as fact is essential. I am unsure whether Pirate Wires is prominent enough a publication that it would be due to mention in any capacity. ] (]) 04:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	(and several more articles on the same subject that I'm too lazy to copy now) cited about extreme right
			::I don't even think its usable for that... Can't find anything that suggests that Rindsberg is a subject matter expert. ] (]) 18:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Sources in that article should have some leeway, as Misplaced Pages is obviously going to be criticised by such sources. But I totally agree with Hemiauchenia that framing is key. This is the opinion of a hyper partisan source, framing it as fact is wrong. Whether it should be included or not is a discussion for the articles talk page. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 11:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is more or less a group
			:blog that mostly publishes opinion, including eg antisemitic Soros conspiracy theories. Any Misplaced Pages editor reading their coverage of this project will immediately spot multiple falsehoods and errors, and also personal attacks on names editors based on these inaccuracies. At best on a par with Quillette. In short, not reliable for this topic, and if this topic is a guide to how robust its general reporting is it’s probably not reliable for anything. ] (]) 16:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Both unreliable and ]. Rindsberg's views on any topic are quite irrelevant to anything. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 06:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Agree fully. Unreliable and undue. ] (]) 14:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:almost certainly no. the article attacking[REDACTED] has falsehoods and even ignoring that and arguing its an opinion piece we could use with attribution , it goes at it from a very marginal POV … there are more useful opinion pieces from more reliable outlets out there.] (]) 07:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:How is it used by others or is it even used by others? If sources have cited their work then I think we can as well. However, I would be very cautious about using it as an independent reference. Very cautious to the point where I would generally say no. Perhaps in a case where it's spot on topic (ideological bias of Misplaced Pages) but then only with attribution. Speaking generally, these sort of sources are always difficult as they may provide very good information but other than editors reading the text and using their own common sense, OR, etc, we don't have a good way to judge the quality of the output. BTW, this is also why I think "use with caution" may not be specific enough. Some sources are more like "use with caution but probably OK" while others are more like "use with extreme caution but there is probably a case where it provides more than about self content". ] (]) 14:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Pirate Wires itself is notable as it's had coverage in other notable outlets but its viewpoint about Misplaced Pages per se might not have been documented in RS yet. But I'm confused -- Why are some of these other media outlets' self-published viewpoints ] without them necessarily being considered RS themselves? ] (]) 13:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The term '']'' refers to sources without adequate editorial oversight, which includes most ]. ] are not self-published sources. —&nbsp;''''']'''&nbsp;<small>]</small>'' 14:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Imo Having Misplaced Pages articles that discuss whether Misplaced Pages is reliable, biased, antisemitic, etc is silly. We're all too inherently conflicted as Misplaced Pages editors to give a sober assessment of these topics and what is/isn't due to include. These topics are best left to scholars. That said, Pirate Wires is a lot less established than these other publications you mention. ] (]) 14:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Outright rejecting ] because it's "right-wing criticism of Misplaced Pages" and has "a very marginal POV" is the issue with ] that the piece is trying to critique. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 13:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::But it does affect ] weight (which requires balance between sources, and which is the real concern for something that, as a ] or a website with no reputation, would obviously be opinion at best.) The article already contains a large number of right-wing sources with a similar perspective; does this piece add anything to them? My feeling is that articles like this are subject to problems where editors try to do this nose-counting thing where they add dozens of opinionated or biased sources saying the same thing because they feel it's a ''really important'' perspective - but that's not how opinion is really meant to be used. If we have twelve sources that are fundimentially similar saying the same thing, they ought to be condensed down to a single sentence or so saying "a bunch of sources said X" (unless some of them are individually noteworthy on their own merits somehow, eg. if they're an opinion from a significant expert, but that obviously isn't the case here.) --] (]) 14:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@] makes a perfectly valid point. ] (]) 14:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It's being rejected because it's a random tech guy's blog - not because it's right wing. ] (]) 14:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::One thing @] said I half-agree with. The question of Misplaced Pages bias is one best answered by academics - which we should document appropriately and neutrally - the opinion of Ashley Rindberg on a blog with no editorial board is not a notable opinion, again, not because of its left-right bent but because <s>s</s>he's just some person with a megaphone. ] (]) 14:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It is your opinion that it is a blog. That itself would need evidence and probably an RfC. ] (]) 14:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Also, ] is a man. ] (]) 14:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Evidence has already been provided. In this thread. The founder brags about having no editorial board on twitter dot com. ] (]) 14:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Getting neither the gender {{tq|"she's"}} nor the spelling {{tq|"Ashley Rindberg"}} correct shows me you may not have looked into this very much. ] (]) 14:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Oh do stop. That's an awful lot to take from a bloody typo. ] (]) 14:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Here's a freebee for all the people looking to say Misplaced Pages has a left-wing bias. This is what a reliable source accusing Misplaced Pages of a left-wing bias looks like: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10584609.2020.1793846 ] (]) 14:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Two can play that game. https://manhattan.institute/article/is-wikipedia-politically-biased ] (]) 14:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::The Manhattan Institute is a think-tank with no particular reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; it is obviously not a ]. --] (]) 14:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::This too, in addition to my comment below. Frankly I'm finding this interaction very strange. ] (]) 14:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I should add that the Manhattan Institute was discussed previously ]; the discussion was never closed or added to ] but by a quick nose-count the total unreliable + deprecate opinions outnumbered the "unclear" opinions almost two-to-one (and there were almost no people saying it was GREL.) --] (]) 14:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::What game? I literally provided a source accusing Misplaced Pages both of left-wing bias and of bias against women at the same time. ] (]) 14:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::*We don't actually require an RFC for every individual dispute; and sources certainly do not ''automatically default'' to reliable. Just doing a quick nose-count in this discussion suggests that it's extremely unlikely that an RFC on Pirate Wires' reliability would support your contention that it is reliable - numerous issues have been raised, especially regarding its lack of editorial controls and its lack of the {{tq|reputation for fact-checking and accuracy}} that RS requires. We can pull it through an entire RFC if you really think it's necessary but I think your time would be better-spent looking for more clearly reliable secondary sources covering this, if you want it in the article. This would also turn things back to the more fundamental ] problem I mentioned above - this looks identical to dozens of similar pieces posted by people with similar opinions; given that it's published in what's ''at least'' a low-quality source compared to the ones already in the article, what makes this one significant enough to highlight? --] (]) 14:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:For disclosure, I originally wrote the ] article. I think the answer is ''no'' to this question specifically, and similar questions generally.<Br/>Pirate Wires is an advocacy media outlet. Its writing is in a punchy tone -- a tech-ish form of ] -- that blends opinion with explanatory reporting. They don't do spot news. So there's just no utility in using it for encyclopedia-writing.<br/>That's not to say it's either good or bad, merely that it doesn't serve the limited purposes for which we use sources here. (It ran a widely cited interview with ] and I don't think anyone believes they made-up the interview. But if we need to cite that interview in an article it can be referenced to any of the numerous RS that, themselves, cited it through précis', versus Pirate Wires directly.) In any case, anything it publishes that ''is'' encyclopedic will be covered in a second, more conventional RS and we should reference the second source. Anything not referenced in a pass-through outlet is probably undue. ] (]) 18:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			'''Respectful comment:''' This discussion would be more helpful if we focused on how reliable sources treat a specific startup news organization and less on original research and personal opinion. --] (]) 21:55, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	mentioned as a source on on Anti-Government Extremism
			== CEIC data ==
	(and several more articles on the same subject that I'm too lazy to copy now) cited about hate crimes
			I often see this site being used as a source for country-list data. They appear to be professional, but I'm not sure if they're considered a proper secondary source. They do not appear to be the same CEIC as the one owned by ], as they say they are owned by "ISI Markets". ] (]) 23:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	2021:
			:It looks like just a big database. I would trust the first party sources for raw data more. ] (]) 10:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	PNAS article cites ADL on global antisemitism
			::If in question use secondary sources.] (]) 02:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Fantasy Literature ==
	cited about extremism in general
	<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small>
			I see this source around a lot and I would like to have it settled for whether it is OK to use for reviews. It looks good to me and not promotional or any of the typical sorts of issues that plague these kinds of websites, but I am not sure, and I would like to know before I use it on pages, and sometimes books are cited to this at NPP and I am unsure how I should judge it. I would judge it as decently established but it looks to me to be straddling the line between online review publication and blog. It's used on about 160 already. Anyone else have any thoughts? ] (]) 02:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:No idea what these are, clicking on the links seems to bring up random texts eg the first one for 2024 brings up "Closing Civic Space in the United States: Connecting the Dots, Changing the Trajectory"? Second one brings up "Chapter 3: Patterns of AGE across Countries" so I didn't bother reading any more after that, you need proper citations if we are to take this seriously. ] (]) 11:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:It has the appearance of a blog. It has a sort-of staff:. I'd be hesitant to use it for ] purposes. ] (]) 09:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The JSTOR interface contains a "cite" button. If you click on it, it supplies you with the proper citation of the source. For example for the first 3 sources you will get these:
			::This is the terms its staff work under:
	::Kleinfeld, Rachel. “Notes.” ''Closing Civic Space in the United States: Connecting the Dots, Changing the Trajectory'', Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 2024, pp. 31–40
			::Basically they're unpaid volunteers who become voting members of the staff. They are expected to review an unspecified but regular number of books in order to maintain their membership. It isn't clear that there's much in the way of editorial oversight beyond a pledge not to plagiarize review material. Considering their concentration on volume of reviews and appearance of loose editorial standards I'd be hesitant to use this group to establish the notability of a book. ] (]) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Molas, Bàrbara, et al. “Patterns of AGE across Countries.” ''Anti-Government Threats and Their Transnational Connections'', International Centre for Counter-Terrorism, 2024, pp. 18–28.
			::So just for notability purposes it is unusable or is it something that should not be included on pages that are notable? ] (]) 22:03, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Pantucci, Raffaello, and Kalicharan Veera Singam. “Extreme Right-Wing in the West.” ''Counter Terrorist Trends and Analyses'', vol. 16, no. 1, 2024, pp. 106–11
	::I'm sure you can manage to do it on your own for the other references. ] (]) 13:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)		:::I'd say unusable for notability purposes. I'd likely leave it off other pages unless it had something significant to say that better sources didn't. ] (]) 14:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::No thanks, these are obviously just passing references. ] (]) 13:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)		:Not an RS. ] (]) 12:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Doesn't matter if they're passing or not. Vegan416 is trying to establish reputation for reliability based on use by others, not notability. ] (]) 13:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::No, it does matter. The ''way'' in which a source is used matters, not just the fact that they're being cited. If a source is cited with attribution to illustrate its own opinion, or simply to establish that a high-profile advocacy org said X, that doesn't necessarily imply any reliability at all; and if a source is cited in passing for uncontroversial or less-important things, that isn't as significant as someone using it for the crux of their argument. The broader way a source is used is important because we're trying to answer the question of "is it treated like it has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy?" But more generally I feel that ], especially when it's just a passing citation like this, is a weaker indicator of reliability or unreliability than actual ''coverage''; use by others can only roughly imply reliability, whereas sources that overtly describe something as unreliable are more clear-cut. --] (]) 00:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Right. It's the same general principle as the trivial versus significant coverage concept in deletion discussions, i.e. about ''quality'', not quantity. ] (]) 04:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::But that's the whole idea of scholarly citations! Most scholarly articles do not rely on just one source but rather cite from many different sources which they regard to be reliable. Haven't you got any academic background? ] (]) 13:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I know how to display a cite properly if that helps. ] (]) 14:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::This is not relevant. What do you think ] means? That we should only considers highly reliable source that rely singly on the source whose reliability we try to check??? This is a ridiculous interpretation. Scholarship (and high-quality journalism) do not work that way. ] (]) 14:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::More straw men. ] (]) 14:18, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Very little care in selection here. The Carnegie Endowment, for instance, is an advocacy group, not an academic journal. ] (]) 14:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::This had already been addressed. Look at ] comment from 13:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC) who identified in JSTOR that the majority of 32 articles from peer review journals citing ADL as a reliable source in the last 3 years. ] (]) 15:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Diff where he discusses the Carnegie Endowment one from 2024 which I objected to specifically? ] (]) 15:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::He didn't look at my selection. Inspired by me he made a new search in JSTOR only in peer reviewed journals. His comment is right here below/ Search for the words "" on this page. PS while Carnegie Endowment might be called advocacy group, it is definitely not biased towards Israel or Zionism. ] (]) 16:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::{{re|Vegan416}} can you, for every source you cite, give the exact page number? For example, I have no idea where source talks about ADL, so I can examine the context for myself. ''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 22:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::While obviously it would have been more helpful to give page numbers, I don't think it's that big a deal. Using search, I can see that the ADL is cited in footnotes 72, 73 and 126. It might be easier to read on the publisher's webpage : {{tq|In 2023, Jewish organizations faced an epidemic of swatting incidents, in which a hoax reporting of a crime at a specific address brings armed police to a site at which they expect to confront violence. This increase took place prior to the spike in antisemitic threats and violence that occurred after October 7.72 Jewish organizations first witnessed an uptick in hateful rhetoric from the right after 2017 and from the left following Hamas’ attack on Israel on October 7, 2023. Threats from the illiberal left and right are now putting Jews at increased risk across a broader geography, spreading from threats at clearly Jewish organizations and synagogues to university campuses.73}} And: {{tq|The Anti-Defamation League challenged the 501(c)3 status of extremist organizations such as the Oath Keepers militia, whose leader was found by the Department of Justice to be guilty of seditious conspiracy.126}} These, to me, are good examples of a reliable source using ADL as a source for facts about antisemitism in an unproblematic way, in two cases without in-text attribution and in one case with. I would say this is good practice, and why we should avoid option 3-4 for the antisemitism topic area. ] (]) 12:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
	:Many of the sources here are thinktank reports rather than peer-reviewed articles. Limiting to the latter by filtering gives . The majority of these treat the ADL as a reliable source, although a small number (e.g. in the '']'') criticise it and some are history articles that mention it without using it as a source. Particularly notable are Daniel Staetsky (praised as a model of excellent methodology by Nishidani elsewhere on this page) saying that his methodology builds on one of the ADL's surveys, a terrorism researcher listing ADL's HEATmap in a list of useful databases on extremism, and a review by a criminologist of various hate crime monitors that discusses ADL as a source precisely for this. In other words, quite a bit of USEBYOTHERS data. ] (]) 13:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::The ADL may well be reliable for this or for that but there 3 RFCs, IP area, antisemitism and hate symbols. Stick to those. ] (]) 14:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::@] Well, if you look at the next to last source I brought, from PNAS which one of the top tier of peer reviewed journals, you will see that it cites the ADL twice on questions of antisemitism (Maybe @] missed it because it spells "Anti-Semitic" instead of "antisemitism"):
	:::"Internationally, one recent global survey of 100 countries found that 32% of people who have heard of the Holocaust think that it is a myth or greatly exaggerated, including 63% in the Middle East and North Africa and 64% of Muslims in the region (11, 12)."
	:::"11. Anti-Defamation League, ADL Poll of Over 100 Countries Finds More Than One-Quarter of Those Surveyed Infected With Anti-Semitic Attitudes. (2014). <nowiki>https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-global-100-poll</nowiki>. Accessed 27 March 2020."
	:::12. Anti-Defamation League, New ADL Poll Finds Dramatic Decline in Anti-Semitic Attitudes in France; Significant Drops in Germany and Belgium. (2015). <nowiki>https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/new-poll-anti-semitic-attitudes-19-countries</nowiki>. Accessed 27 March 2020."
	:::Here is the proper citation as you like it:
	:::Nyhan, Brendan. “” ''Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America'', vol. 118, no. 15, 2021, pp. 1–7 ] (]) 17:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::You said that these were ADL cites from after 2020, those are two ADL polls from 2014 and 2015. Besides that, so what? I don't think anyone has denied that the ADL is cited by others. ] (]) 17:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I meant that the citations appear in articles published after 2020. This is how the search works in JSTOR. And I explained why I brought those sources - ]. This is particularly relevant against option 3 and 4 that ADL should be deprecated or declared generally unreliable. ] (]) 17:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::The RFCs are about specific areas, as regards the antisemitism RFC, most editors up to now appear to be arguing for attribution rather than gunrel. ] (]) 18:42, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::OK. I don't think it is necessary, but in order to achieve consensus I won't object to attribution. ] (]) 18:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:{{ping|Vegan416}} {{tq|cited about antisemitism (including in the Israel-Palestine context)}} - can you provide the ''exact'' quote where the ADL is being cited for something about the Israel-Palestine conflict? That is, the statement about the I/P conflict that they're being used as a citation for? I searched it myself and none of the citations to the ADL there even mention Israel or Palestine, nor were they used for parts of the paper discussing them. If it was an error or if you can't turn up a quote, could you strike the ''(including in the Israel-Palestine context)'' bit? --] (]) 00:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::The specific example you asked about is a bit complicated because for some reason the footnotes have a separate link from the article itself.
	::Here is the article link: https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep58112.4?seq=9
	::And here are the footnotes link (that's what I posted here before): https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep58112.11?seq=6
	::The references to the ADL there are in footnote 73:
	::“Anti-Semitic Incidents Surged Nearly 60% in 2017, According to New ADL Report,” Anti-Defamation League, February 27, 2018, <nowiki>https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/anti-semitic-incidents-surged-nearly-60-2017-according-new-adl-report</nowiki>; “'''ADL Records Dramatic Increase in U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Following Oct. 7 Hamas Massacre''',” Anti-Defamation League, October 24, 2023, <nowiki>https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-records-dramatic-increase-us-antisemitic-incidents-following-oct-7</nowiki>;
	::This footnote is a footnote to this sentence in the article itself: "'''Jewish organizations first witnessed an uptick in hateful rhetoric from the right after 2017 and from the left following Hamas’ attack on Israel on October 7, 2023. Threats from the illiberal left and right are now putting Jews at increased risk across a broader geography''', spreading from threats at clearly Jewish organizations and synagogues to university campuses."
	::I think it is quite obvious that this talks about antisemitism in the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict. ] (]) 05:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
			== Is “Zannettou, Savvas "A Quantitative Approach to Understanding Online Antisemitism". a reliable source for ] ==
	It has been argued in the survey above that ADL is fringe, including because it supports some version of the IHRA. E.g. {{tq|From an academic position, the ADL's position is fringe, not mainstream - much as religious adherents, despite their numbers, do not define the mainstream; scholars do.}} However, as this section shows, a significant number of scholars consider it a reliable source. I believe the ''Journal of Contemporary Antisemitism'' is the only academic journal focusing specifically on antisemitism. Looking at the articles in its recent issues that focus on the US, most cite the ADL, explicitly taking its attitudinal surveys and incident monitoring seriously. a chapter in a recent academic book taking it extremely serious as a reliable source. Historian ], the US Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism, spoke last month at one of its events. She cited the ADL in testimony she gave the House last month too. David Myers, a UCLA prof who spent the weekend defending the encampment there from Zionist counter-protestors, cites them as a reliable source for antisemitism figures.And there are so many other examples. If we diverge from this practice, it will be us who is fringe. ] (]) 12:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
			I can’t find evidence it’s been published. ] ] 19:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Worth noting that the ADL only appears to have crossed over into its extreme fringe conflationary position fairly recently – I'm not sure exactly when – so it's hard to know in terms of dating which sources can be said to intellectually support it. I do know it was by Hillel exactly three weeks ago. Reaching back to sources from several years back is not necessarily reflective of the most recent dark turn that's been taken by the organisation. This year began with the ADL's staff in an uproar, and Google "ADL conflation" and go to news you'll see a real deluge of recent criticism, including, just two days ago: . ] (]) 13:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::Agree that the bias issues have intensified recently, especially during the current phase of the conflict, but to clarify all of the examples of scholarly use I gave just here are fairly recent, although obviously the material they cite was published prior. ] (]) 11:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
			:I'm not up for reading it right now, but it's been published, and the correct citation is: Zannettou, S., Finkelstein, J., Bradlyn, B., & Blackburn, J. (2020, May). A quantitative approach to understanding online antisemitism. In ''Proceedings of the International AAAI conference on Web and Social Media'' (Vol. 14, pp. 786-797). Google Scholar shows where it can be accessed. If it's kept, the references to it in the Notes section should change "Savvas" to something like "Zannettou et al." ] (]) 21:01, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	====RS having to revise articles based on ADL data====
			::I should add that the Zannettou et al. citations that currently exist in the article are preprints, which generally are not RSs, per ]. The other citation was also subsequently in conference proceedings. Conference proceedings might or might not be reliable sources for specific content, depends on the conference and the content. ] (]) 22:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	Since we are doing multiple subsections, I'll add one. Here are two examples of news media having to revise articles after having uncritically used ADL data:
			:::It's important to keep in mind that ''most'' of the preprints people link to as sources were eventually published; we just link to the preprints as courtesy links because they're usually what's available. PREPRINT even mentions this. --] (]) 15:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	*The based off the ADL data includes this note: {{tq|Clarification: This story has been updated to include additional information about how the ADL tracks incidents of antisemitism since the start of the Israel-Hamas War.}} CNN first went with the ADL's number of "361%" from the in the , but then had to revise the story to add three new paragraphs and the "176%" number, to reflect statistics without incidents newly categorized by ADL as antisemitic.
			::::Yes, but in that case, you still need the correct citation for wherever it eventually appeared, and if there's a link to that final version in full, then you should link to the full final version rather than a preprint draft. In this particular case, the citations themselves were not for the final version, and the final versions are both available in full elsewhere. ] (]) 15:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	*NBC likewise had to revise its article: . Their note reads as follows: {{tq|CLARIFICATION (Jan. 11, 2024 1:57 p.m. ET): This article has been updated to add details on how ADL has changed the way it compiles data on antisemitic incidents since Oct. 7.}} NBC had to change the headline as well; the original read: "Antisemitic incidents in the U.S. jumped 360% after Oct. 7 Hamas attack, advocacy group says".
			:What's the context for this question? Where is it being cited/do you want to be able to cite it? ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 03:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	This suggests that ADL has become an unreliable source to the point that news outlets that rely on its reporting have to issue corrections after the fact. --] (]) 12:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			::@] I'm a bit confused by the question - did you look at the article? It's cited several times there and as I can't find evidence that it's been reliably published I don't think it should be used. ] ] 08:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Sorry; that's my bad. I was running on low sleep and shouldn't have been on Misplaced Pages, and I read your prose where you don't include a link but glazed past the header text where you did include a link. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 20:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:See https://ojs.aaai.org/index.php/ICWSM/article/view/7343/7197 ] (]) 15:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			Apologies, I missed another one, also apparently never published."Zannettou, Savvas, Tristan Caulfield, Jeremy Blackburn, Emiliano De Cristofaro, Michael Sirivianos, Gianluca Stringhini, and Guillermo Suarez-Tangil. "On the Origins of Memes by Fringe Web Communities." arXiv.org, September 22, 2018. https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.12512." ] ] 08:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I provided a link to the published version of that one in my second comment above. The citation is Zannettou, S., Caulfield, T., Blackburn, J., De Cristofaro, E., Sirivianos, M., Stringhini, G., & Suarez-Tangil, G. (2018, October). On the origins of memes by means of fringe web communities. In ''Proceedings of the Internet Measurement Conference 2018'' (pp. 188-202). There's an alternate citation at the top right of the copy where it says "ACM Reference Format." ] (]) 13:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:If a news outlet has used a source uncritically, isn’t that more of a reflection on them than on the source? I see neither of these two updates is described as a correction (rather, they are described as clarifications). ] (]) 12:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			::@] ACM is reputable, but I seem to have forgotten that we can use published conference papers, but not papers simply presented at a conference. Sorry. ] ] 14:04, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Not necessarily, ADL trumpeted the increase but didn't trumpet the change in criteria, misleading at best. ] (]) 13:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::I'm not sure that I'm following. Both papers were published in conference proceedings. FWIW, even preprints are ] in WP's sense of this term, which is only "a source that is made available to the public in some form." Even if there are no conference proceedings, it's possible to use a conference paper that was presented, as long as the presenter has made it publicly available (e.g., via something like arxiv.org). But all of this only establishes that the paper is published and therefore verifiable, not that it's a RS for the content in question. ] (]) 14:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::'s the original ADL press release which indeed trumpeted the increase and didn't mention the change in criteria, although thrice says the data is "preliminary". It notes that it includes "1,317 rallies, including antisemitic rhetoric, expressions of support for terrorism against the state of Israel '''and/or anti-Zionism'''." I can't see what was changed when it was amended a week later. I agree that not mentioning a change in methodology is sloppy at best, misleading at worst. Don't think that evidences general unreliability in the way being argued though. ] (]) 13:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::It is in my view bias to the point of unreliability to lump any of those three things together. Much less all three of them. ] (]) 13:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)		::::Sorry, I mean when is a paper submitted to a conference run by a reliable organisation an RS? When submitted? If published as part of the publication of the conference papers? ] ] 15:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::A paper that's been submitted to a conference should be treated like a preprint. A paper that appears in conference proceedings is more likely to be an RS, but that will depend on whether the conference is one that reviews all papers in a way that's similar to peer-reviewed journals, and — as always — on the WP content that it's being used as a source for (a paper can be an RS for some content and not for other content). Assuming that the papers do substantiate the WP text, I'm guessing that they're RSs (Google Scholar indicates that they've been cited over 200 times). ] (]) 16:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Not if you are tracking public anti-Jewish actions and using modern definitions, then all 3 are covered. ] (]) 13:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::It is published, Conference proceedings of Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence (AAAI), volume 14. AAAI has been around since 1979 with respected associations. Submission to a conference is not sufficient to meet any standards. Acceptance by a reputable conference after peer review (some conference talks are invited and not peer reviewed) is a good indicator of reliability though not a guarantee (the conference paper may well be revised between acceptance and publication in a proceedings and even then might in the long run not be considered reliable). As it stands, I would say reliable for the use of Happy Merchant online unless other sources can be found undermining its reliability. ] (]) 15:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::I’ve previously pointed out that the Working Definition of Antisemitism, while popular among governments and advocacy groups, is controversial among scholars and by no means universally accepted. ] (]) 11:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
			:::::I would consider a paper published in the proceedings of a respected conference a reasonably reliable source. If it was contradicted by peer-reviewed research or, even better, a peer-reviewed meta-analysis of available literature I would give it a bit less due than those sources. But I'd say that yes, at its base, this looks reliable. ] (]) 16:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::It's a reflection on both, isn't it? If skepticism is required of the sources claims, that implies it's not actually generally reliable for our purposes. ] (]) 13:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thanks all. I'm really cross with myself for not checking on Google Scholar - ironically I've just done that with another paper. I would have saved you all a lot of time if I had done that. ] ] 18:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::The clarification wasn’t to increase skepticism, it was to increase visibility of the definitions being used. I agree that not stating the definition change alongside the headline statistic is questionable, but I think that is evidence more of bias than unreliability. Looking into their explainer on the change, they present it not as a methodology change, but rather that the backdrop context of the war renders certain expressions of anti-Zionism as anti-Semitic that might not have counted in mellower times. That is ultimately their opinion, and the charge of anti-semitism is closer to a subjective opinion than an objective fact. Certainly this source needs to be handled with greater than usual care, and it’s not a source which should get waved through into wikivoice - hence “additional considerations”. ] (]) 16:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
	:@] These are not "corrections" but "clarifications". In other words CNN and NBC do not say that the ADL was wrong about facts, but rather that definitions used were not clear enough. And CNN and NBC do not say that ADL definition (that AZ=AS) is necessarily wrong either. They just clarify what is the definition used by the ADL because some people objected to this definition. A dispute about a definition doesn't make the ADL generally unreliable. ] (]) 07:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::To be clear, we, as a community, object to that definition as fringe. Nowhere on Misplaced Pages will you find a statement substantiated in Wikivoice asserting that conflation, because it is, politely speaking, unacceptable fringe, and, frankly speaking, drivel. Again, were in not already painfully obvious from a conceptual perspective, you only have to look to see ] and ] existing as separate pages and briefly check the definitions, or do the same on any encyclopedic or RS resource, to observe the difference. Similarly, nowhere will you find the notion that the conflation is a valid minority position within the academic mainstream. You will find RS and scholarly sources denouncing the conflation, and then a small coterie of POV-pushing sources defending the conflation as somehow not intellectually and morally bankrupt. Needless to say, we stick to mainstream. ] (]) 09:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::@] To be clear, politely speaking, what you said here is absolute nonsense. We don’t say in wikivoice that “AZ is a type of AS” for the same reason that we don’t say in wikivoice that “AZ is not a type of AS”. Namely, because '''as[REDACTED] community, HAVE NO OPINION on this question, and therefore we neither endorse, nor object the view that “AZ is a type AS”, and we definitely do not regard this view as fringe'''. This is because of WP:NPOV policy. And the fact that there are different articles for ] and ] doesn’t prove your claim either, because even those who think that “AZ is a type of AS” don’t mean that these concepts are exactly identical! That would be ridiculous because AS is much older and much wider than AZ. What “AZ=AS” actually means is that AZ is a subset of AS, or to be even more precise that there is a large overlap between AZ and AS. This view about the relation between AZ and AS is best illustrated by this Ven Diagram here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:TheRelationshipBetweenASandAZ.jpg
	:::As for the question of what we can say is really mainstream and what is really fringe (outside of wikipedia’s NPOV) this had already been discussed here enough and continuing this discussion at length here would be bludgeoning. Therefore I’ll respond to you about that in my talk page later and notify you so you can respond there if you (or anyone else here) will wish to do so ] (]) 16:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::We don't state that "AZ is not a type of AS" because you don't need to affirm a negative – it's the default state of things. And of course Misplaced Pages endorses opinions: it endorses mainstream opinions based on a consensus understanding of RS sources. You neither understand the issues here nor how Misplaced Pages works. ] (]) 16:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::You are bludgeoning here. As I said if we you wish to continue this discussion you can respond at my talk page when I'll write my lengthy reply, or you can move the discussion to your talk page. I'll be glad to continue there as well. ] (]) 16:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::I think ''you'' are doing infinitely more bludgeoning than anyone else here. ] (]) 12:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
			== ] ==
	====From the River to the Sea" in the Real World Context====
			<!-- ] 19:57, 5 July 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1751745462}}
	There was significant discussion about this phrase above, so I want to make a distinction between the hypothetical meaning of it, and the "real-world" meaning of it to which the ADL refers.
			Should we be using articles from the Hawar News Agency, especially in relation to the (geo)political side of Rojava? This also includes articles in the scope of the Syrian civil war. It has ties to the SDF, which means there is a significant conflict of interest here; <s>I should also add that the YPG/YPD/SDF , which raises concern over its reliability.</s> I want to get community consensus before I do anything, especially because the article in question (]) is related to a CTOP. 💽 ] 💽 🌹 ⚧ <sup>(''']''')</sup> 19:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:(Copying this response from the talk page of the ]:) Of course we have to use Hawar, simply because it is one the most prominent news sites from Syria. It ''shouldn't'' be used as the sole source for contentious issues (unless it cites claims), but for basic facts such as local election results, regional policy decisions, etc. it is one of the only sources available. It is also used as a source by academic researchers such as in ''The Kurds in the Middle East: Enduring Problems and New Dynamics'', ''The Kurds of Northern Syria: Governance, Diversity and Conflicts'', ''Soldiers of End-Times. Assessing the Military Effectiveness of the Islamic State'', and ''Statelet of Survivors. The Making of a Semi-Autonomous Region in Northeast Syria''.<br>(The following part is new, written for RSN:) These are books written by experts on Syria, released by reputable publishers such as ‎ Oxford University Press, and they have seemingly deemed Hawar to be a partisan, but useable source. Speaking from experience as an editor who has been active in editing articles on the Syrian civil war for ten years, I would also note that Hawar was previously discussed by editors and similarily assessed, as it is fairly reliable though should be used with caution in especially problematic fields such as casualty numbers (where partisanship becomes a major problem). ] (]) 20:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Having read through the article you linked it doesn't show that media is heavily censored. A relevant sentence would appear to be: <br>{{tq|"In the current situation, the journalists we interviewed usually stress that, on the one hand, they enjoy relative freedom of expression. The PYD did not forcefully close those it considers as antagonistic media. Reporters can move freely in the region and cover a wide array of issues. Additionally, journalists from international or regional media are also generally allowed to operate freely. However, they also say that there is always a tension with the authorities in power and there are red lines that cannot be crossed."}}<br>As well as:<br>{{tq|"Gradually, they seem to have adopted an editorial line that is less critical, if not supportive, of the political system in Rojava. This support, according to some local journalists, is not due so much to direct imposition from the authorities, but rather to their own convictions and, even more important, to the feeling that doing otherwise would be very unpopular in a conflict-ridden context."}}<br>So it doesn't sound like they have the most freedom of media, but it appears a long way from heavily censored. Restrictions on reporting matters that could effect security are common in areas of conflict (and even outside of them).<br>Hawar News Agency has some ] and would probably be covered by ]. Issues of bias (]) and opinion (]) don't immediately make a source unreliable. In general I would agree with Applodion, reliable but caution should be taken for issue where it's bias or censorship of security matters may effect it's reporting. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 22:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Agree with above, helpful to understand its bias, but this means to use with caution and understanding rather than preventing use. ] (]) 00:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Agree with the above. If we are citing it for contentious claims, then it's better we provide attribution. Unless OP or someone else can come up with credible sources that ] the reliability of ''Hawar'', I don't see any reason to worry about its inclusion. Looking over the article, it seems most of the citations to it are for easily verifiable facts (i.e. changes in AANES leadership, recognition by the Catalan parliament, etc.), rather than anything contentious. --] (]) 10:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:If we consider TRT sub-optimum in relation to Rojava and the Syrian war because of its affiliation to the Erdogan government (see above on this noticeboard), the same should apply to Hawar. It’s fine for reporting the statements by AANES/PYD/SDF or uncontentious facts, but it should always be attributed and triangulated for anything at all contentious. I’d rate it above Al-Masdar and below the SOHR for reporting facts about eg battles in the Syrian war, but like them is a weak source. ] (]) 20:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Is there anything to show that Hawar is not independent of the SDF? I couldn't find anything making an explicit link. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 20:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{ping|ActivelyDisinterested}} from the ]: "On Thursday, the group held funerals for 17 of its fighters in the border town of Tal al-Abyad, the '''SDF-linked''' Hawar news agency said...". 💽 ] 💽 🌹 ⚧ <sup>(''']''')</sup> 22:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That would indicate a need for caution. Whether to the level of TRT I couldn't day. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 01:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The difference between Hawar and TRT seems to be how they are treated by independent academics and subject experts; as far as I know, TRT has been repeatedly accused of spreading outright falsehoods (), whereas Hawar is seemingly deemed to be mostly reliable despite its connections to the PYD and SDF. ] (]) 18:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Being censored is a ] issue and a reason to use a source with caution (with attribution for anything remotely contentious), but it doesn't automatically render them completely unreliable. The big question is whether they're yielding to pressure to publish things that are actually inaccurate rather than just one-sided. If not, they can still be used with caution - we'd want to cite better sources when possible and avoid giving ] weight to a source with a clear bias, but there's some advantage to having sources that are close to conflicts. And a major problem with removing sources simply for being subject to censorship is that it could produce systematic bias by removing every source from a particular region; I'm not familiar with the Syrian press specifically, but in other regions with similar censorship, there's still a difference between sources that carefully report as much as they can get away with and as accurately as they can within the restrictions of government censors, and sources that full-throatedly broadcast misinformation to support the party line. --] (]) 15:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			== RfC: LionhearTV ==
	Some people say that the slogan “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” doesn’t necessarily negate the idea of Jewish self-determination in the holy land, since a "free and democratic" one-state solution can in theory be a manifestation of the self-determination of both Jews and Palestinians. That is debatable. But in any case, if people really meant this slogan in this way, then this should have been reflected in the protests where this slogan is chanted. For example, it would have been expected that the people chanting this slogan would do it while carrying the flags of Israel and Palestine together. Or that they would print on their shirts some of the ideas of combined flags that had been suggested for a one-state solution (see for example ], and ).
			{{Moved discussion from|Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines/Sources#RfC: LionhearTV|2= Royiswariii, 19 January 2025 00:55 (UTC)}}<!-- ] 11:02, 21 February 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1740135721}}
			I want your comments about the reliability of LionhearTV, I can't determine whether it is reliable or not, on ], the Lionheartv is in the unreliable section, but, despite of that some editors still using this source in all Philippine Articles. So let's make a vote:
	But in fact, nothing like this happens. In all the protests, the people who chant this slogan carry only Palestinian flags and symbols. '''Moreover, quite often this slogan is visually explicated to mean the deletion of Jewish self-determination,''' '''by using it alongside images of the entire area of the holy land “from the river to the sea” covered by the colors of the Palestinian flag, or by a Palestinian ''keffiyeh,'' without any Jewish symbols whatsoever'''. See many examples from demonstrations ( ), (), , , and more.
	So, to sum up, while '''hypothetically''' the slogan “from the river to the sea” might perhaps be used in a meaning that is not contradictory to Jewish self-determination, '''in practice''' in the protests and other contexts that the ADL condemned, it had actually been used as a slogan against Jewish self-determination, i.e. an Antisemitic slogan according to the IHRA definition appendix. In the words of ] - in the past, some antisemites wanted to make the world Judenrein, today some antisemites want to make the world Judenstaatrein.
	PS, , '''by a landslide majority of 86%!''' '''This shows again how ridiculous is the opinion that this is a fringe view,''' and that holding this view should make the ADL an unreliable source. This is especially true if consider that this is after all a political question and not a scientific one. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)</small>
	:Whoever wrote this drivel forgot to sign, but I'd like to inform them that we do not listen to what any particular government has to say about a polarized issue. How would you react if someone made an argument phrased identically to yours, same big bold letters and everything, but instead of arguing about the U.S. House passing a resolution saying that "from the river to the sea" is antisemitic, it was an argument about the various governments of the world that endorsed South Africa's genocide case against Israel? Not well, I'd imagine. We do not repeat the positions of governments in Wikivoice. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 00:48, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	::@] 1. You are using a straw man. I never said that we should "repeat the positions of governments in Wikivoice". What I actually said is that it is ridiculous to say that the view that "From the River to the Sea" is antisemitic is fringe, when it gets 86% majority in the USA House.
	::2. You are also wrong in claiming that this is the view of one "particular government". In fact, this is the view of several governments and scholars. See here ]. The IHRA definition which is the base of this view is accepted by an even larger number of governments and scholars. See here ] - '''Adoption''' section. So again, it cannot be viewed as fringe.
	::3. You also completely ignored the main point of my comment, which was that the way that the slogan is used in the anti-Israeli protests actually proves that the intention of the protesters is to delete the Jewish self-determination. ] (]) 09:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::Please read and internalize ]. ''']''' - 11:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::Agree. I’ll give Vegan416 a moratorium of three more comments before reporting them for bludgeoning. ] (]) 12:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:I'll give you one guess who wrote that... ] (]) 00:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	::Sorry to ruin the suspense. ''']''' - 03:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:Complete and utter rubbish. Campaigning for one cause has never required one to carry the flag of every other cause on the planet. '']''<sup>]</sup> 10:20, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
	====What should be discerned from this RFC?====
	Obviously results are highly polarized, with a lot of “ADL is no good at all” and a lot of “ADL is 100% reliable”. There’s obviously not enough of a consensus to label it as any one thing, but there are enough reputable editors showing concerns about its reliability that it should somehow be acknowledged as a controversial and un-ideal source for most claims (since nothing it’s cited for is uncontroversial). ] (]) 14:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	:My take away… it can be cited, but use in-text attribution. ] (]) 14:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	:There are 3 RFC's. ] (]) 15:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::I know but it’s basically one super-rfc ] (]) 15:10, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::I do see some difference between them, leaving aside the obvious crowd of "1"'s. ] (]) 15:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::Likewise, at first glance based on votes (without weighing them), Part 1 looks like about 2-3, and ranging widely between 1 to 4. Part 2 could potentially be 1-2 if you were to overlook all the comments based on I/P coverage that in my opinion shouldn't be applicable to that part of the RfC. Part 3 looks like it averages around 2. There could easily be three different outcomes. Ideally there would be three of more uninvolved experienced users who would close this by now since the comments and discussion have died down, maybe taking a part each, as it's too much for one user. ] (]) 13:17, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Even though I voted 1, for the sake of consensus I won't object to 2. I don't see in-text attribution as an affront when we are talking about political rather than scientific issues. ] (]) 15:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	:Think there's a pretty clear consensus for option 3 on the first two RFCs, despite the bludgeoning by a number of people. ''']''' - 22:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::I would say on the second one there's a clear consensus for at least option 2 and a rough consensus for option 3, but that's a quibble. ] (]) 22:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::Consensus has to be based off of reliable sources, and a bunch of people saying "I don't like it" doesn't actually demonstrate the ADL in unreliable. As far as I can tell, the sides advocating a downgrade or depracation haven't actually shown any evidence the ADL is regarded as anything other than a reliable source. '''] ]''' 22:40, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::There have been reliable sources showing the ADL lying about facts on the conflict. If you are unable to see that then I suggest you try reading the discussion again. Otherwise Id say your {{tq|As far as I can tell}} is a personal problem. ''']''' - 22:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::I've read the discussion, and this simply hasn't been convincing. No need to throw around insults, though. '''] ]''' 23:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Unaware of any insults thrown around. But your being convinced is not the metric we decide consensus on. The claim that {{tq| the sides advocating a downgrade or depracation haven't actually shown any evidence the ADL is regarded as anything other than a reliable source}} remains a straightforward false statement. ''']''' - 03:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::There is absolutely no consensus on anything. I suggest you count and read the discussion again. ] (]) 05:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Lol, it isn’t based on how many times you said the same thing that the overwhelming majority of editors disagreed with. ''']''' - 08:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::I made a rough quick count of the votes on the antisemitism question (please recheck since I could have made mistakes). These seem to be the result:
	::::::::1: 12, 2: 17, 3: 20, 4: 6
	::::::::That doesn't look like any consensus. ] (]) 08:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Consensus is not unanimity, nor is it plurality, in fact it is not settled by votes. There's a reason we refer to them as !votes. However one thing a reviewer is likely to take away from this distribution of !votes is that the broad majority of people who attended to the RFC had mixed feelings regarding the use of the ADL for antisemitism questions and that, at the very least, there is a clear and substantial majority who would prefer avoidance of wikivoice for ADL claims. ] (]) 18:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::lol 12 ppl said generally reliable, 43 said not: looks like the answer is "not." ] (]) 05:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::LOL. If you'll look well you'll see that I responded here to Nableezy's and Loki's claim that there is a consensus on option 3 in the second question (about antisemitism). I stand by my claim that there is no consensus on option 3 in the antisemitism question, and the numbers prove that. And while I'm breaking my temporary silence here, I'll also mention another high quality RS that cites the ADL on antisemitism, that wasn't mentioned before, I just found it accidentally while exploring another topic, it is an article from 2023 in one of ''Nature'' journals: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-023-01624-y. And DroneBogus since you are counting, it's 1 out of 3. ] (]) 11:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Use by others is not really the issue here (and your math needs improvement). ] (]) 11:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::My bad I didn't realize "There is absolutely no consensus on anything" meant there was consensus on something. ] (]) 13:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:One consideration I haven't yet seen is that the ADL's reliability may or may not vary with its management. Different leadership, staffing, and strategies correspond with changes to any organizations capabilities (either on a particular subject or generally) and, as a result, should perhaps change expectations.
	:For example, the ADL has to expand its international capabilities, and, there has been discussion surrounding the difference in capabilities, degree of controversy, and areas of focus between the current leader, Jonathan Greenblatt, and the previous leader, Abraham (Abe) Foxman , , .
	:This may not be a practical standard to implement, but perhaps its worth consideration that material from the ADL on different subjects may meet different standards of reliability depending on when that informational material was published. ] (]) 13:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
	::This is a very good point. For example, most of the negatives above relate to the period since October 23, including a definition change in January and descriptions of protestors in this period, so I think there might be a stronger case for option 3 in this period (and for issues relating to the conflict) than in the prior periods. However, the three links there kind of cancel each other out. The third, an opinion piece in ] and ] of the ], attacks Greenblatt for being too left-wing, for supporting Black Lives Matter and other groups allegedly "hostile to the Jewish community". It also attacks Greenblatt for taking money from ]. (Apparently, "Omidyar has also financed The Intercept, an Iran-apologist, radical left-wing news outlet that has at times defended Hamas and Hezbollah, antisemites in the British Labour Party, the Jew-hating leaders of the Women's March, and supporters of Louis Farrakhan.") So if we take that seriously, it's hard to also take seriously The Nation, which criticises it for being too pro-Trump. The Tablet, meanwhile, is not that critical (it discusses how the ADL attempts to be bipartisan and even-handed in a partisan, polarised world) and does not raise any issues relating to reliability. The criticisms of the ADL under Greenblatt which they cite are more aligned with the Newsweek op ed: that it is too critical of Trump and right-wing antisemitism and not sufficiently focused on Jewish-only issues rather than a civil rights perspective more broadly. These criticisms contradict the arguments raised on this talk page against ADL, which say almost the opposite. So my take-home from these three articles is that both the left and the right have ideological dislike for ADL, but I see no reliability issues raised in them. ] (]) 12:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::I think you should actually read the criticisms in detail, and not put them into boxes. The Nation doesn't just criticize the ADL for being too pro-Trump but , which by itself would make the ADL not a reliable source. ] (]) 02:44, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Just to note that that's a different Nation piece than the one I was replying to, which was the one Glinksnerk linked to.
	::::::] (]) 16:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::What that article establishes is a single opinion writer for a single left-wing outlet thinks the ADL is the spy agency of a hostile foreign power. If anything, the opinion piece goes to great lengths to emphasize how reliably and authoritatively the ADL is viewed by news outlets. I'm not going to value a single opinion piece over decades of earned credibility from mainstream news organizations, in other words. '''] ]''' 03:03, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::The Nation isn't "left-wing"; it's "progressive" within US politics, which just means it picks up on a handful of meaningful social issues and presumably supports the slightest vestige of social security. The ADL is associated with at least one well-documented espionage scandal, and is openly a lobby group, so that's not controversial. And James Bamford is an award-winning journalist and specialist on espionage and intelligence, so it's not a random opinion; it's a featured analysis from an experienced, specialist journalist. ] (]) 07:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::And he still states very clearly in the article that the ADL is uniformly regarded as reliable and reputable by mainstream media. He doesn’t like that, but it absolutely is. '''] ]''' 15:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::While detailing all of the organisation's red flags, he essentially points to the glaring and inappropriate systemic bias in coverage of the ADL – essentially flagging the very issue that Misplaced Pages editors should watch out for. ] (]) 18:29, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::It's such a common take to hear that "US politics are so right wing that any progressive in America is unbiased by the world's standards". It's not based on reality. The first thing I found when I went to The Nation's website is this article which claims that Trump is on Xanax because he fell asleep in court. This is unhinged. According to The Guardian (which is British), people fall asleep in court because there is no air conditioning and legal proceedings are boring. If the first article I see on The Nation is some guy making up a rumor that Trump is on Xanax and presenting that as news I highly doubt an opinion piece is more reliable. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 14:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::The Nation strikes me as the sort of magazine you can publish anything in, from quality journalism to baseless conspiracy theories, as long as it toes the ideological line. ] (]) 03:30, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::: just took his next step into the abyss. As noted in the comments, all this chap seems to do these days is defame in defence of Israel. ] (]) 18:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::If we used Greenblatt's remarks to camera on MSNBC (a highly unlikely scenario), then we'd presumably be citing Greenblatt/MSNBC, not the ADL. I don't think this is pertinent to the discussion. Our question isn't whether Greenblatt is a sensible commentator, it's whether ADL publications are reliable or not. ] (]) 13:36, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::As the figurehead for the lobby group in question, Greenblatt's position is highly relevant. When he speaks and is given a platform, it is as the representative and spokesperson for the ADL. The things he says he says openly as the head of the ADL, so I'm not sure how that can be detached from the group. ] (]) 14:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::He presents as the public face for the org, much like Dave Rich does for CST, neither go out of their way to specify that they are simply rendering their personal opinions. ] (]) 14:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::While you might dislike such comments, JVP is pretty uniformly regarded in the Jewish community as a disagrace, primarily due to their radical anti-Zionism and support of Palestinian terrorism and terrorists (see: , , , and ). '''] ]''' 14:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Odd of you to attempt to claim that JVP is not part of the Jewish community, and that only Zionist Jews determine what is a "disgrace". Also odd framing on most of your links. But par for the course I suppose. ''']''' - 14:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::JVP is a part of "the Jewish community", I really do dislike it when this mysterious "community" is summoned to berate "bad Jews". I don't believe the Jewish community is any sort of monolith. ] (]) 14:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::I'm sure both of you are better experts on the Jewish community than the ADL, of course. '''] ]''' 14:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::J Street? Or are they just slightly bad Jews? Not yet consigned to the pale. ] (]) 14:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Well, J Street has certainly faced criticism from the right, but it certainly isn't loved by anti-Zionists - ] called them "]". Not sure why you're referencing a group generally regarded as mainstream here. '''] ]''' 14:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::Because they are out of step with AIPAC, who are also "mainstream", no? ] (]) 15:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::When have I mentioned AIPAC here - what are you even talking about? '''] ]''' 15:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::To reiterate, not a monolith. ] (]) 15:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::I still have no clue what you're talking about. '''] ]''' 15:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::I will just have to take responsibility for my failure to explain the obvious. ] (]) 15:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Please don't make claims that some Jews are considered a disgrace by the Jewish community, that's borderline hate speech. ] (]) 14:36, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::I think what he is going for is “highly controversial” or “broadly disliked”, which I can strongly affirm within my anecdotal experience (young, centrist/liberal European Jews) and aligns with what I see in online spaces.
	:::::::I can’t speak for groups and places with which I am unfamiliar, and some of the more rabid responses are (in my personal opinion) wrong, but his description is a generally accurate assessment of broadly held sentiments. ] (]) 14:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::: "at odds with most Jews in the U.S., including friends and family" but "In a conflict so often reduced to Arabs versus Jews, the Jewish identity of JVP comes into play beyond simply guiding the personal politics of its members. As one small part of a broader movement for Palestinian rights, JVP sees great strategic value in turning out large numbers of Jewish dissenters to Israeli policy, according to Saper. "We know that we have such an important role to challenge false accusations of antisemitism,” Saper said, “and also make it so clear that, actually, our Jewish values teach us to take action for justice." resonates. ] (]) 14:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::So we both generally agree with what Toa said then? ] (]) 15:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::I have a more nuanced opinion. ] (]) 15:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Could you elaborate on the difference? It may be off topic (and the curiosity killing the cat), but to me it feels like you two are phrasing the same content differently, not a difference in content. ] (]) 16:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::This discussion is about the reliability of the ADL and they are certainly not reliable for their views about JVL (or much else, so it seems). ] (]) 16:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::That's certainly a way to characterize what I said, {{u|Levivich}}. The ADL has a . What I said isn't controversial whatsoever. In that regard, they're quite similar to ] - a group that, while Jewish, are . '''] ]''' 14:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Oh, an advocacy group explains why a conflicting advocacy group don't get to get counted among the Jews? That form of Jewish erasure is not exactly shocking, but given the source, it's of dubious value. Can be filed with Trump explaining Biden's lack of popularity. -- ] (]) 15:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::Yes, that's exactly what the source says - they aren't Jewish. That is what the ADL is arguing verbatim, and I'm sure you can cite exactly where in the article it says that.
	::::::::Now, if you actually ''did'' read it you'd note it simply says their views " represent the mainstream Jewish community, which it views as bigoted for its association with Israel", cites specific examples of areas where JVP has engaged in extremely dubious behavior (endorsement of violence, use of antisemitic tropes and cartoons, casting traditional Jewish religious doctrine as racial supremacism, etc.). '''] ]''' 15:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Yeah, they're defining "mainstream Jewish community" as those who agree with the ADL, so that those who disagree with them do not get counted, when actually huge portions of American Jews disagree with the ADL in varying forms and levels. It's the
	:::::::::True Scotsman" fallacy. So the ADL views may be the most common but it's not so slanted to erase all else from the "mainstream". In the mainstream, there are broad disagreements among Jews, which is hardly news. -- ] (]) 18:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::You want to trust not just the lobby group but its blogs as well now? ] (]) 15:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::Yes, I regard the ADL as a reliable source on Judaism and the American Jewish community. So do most reliable sources. Shocker, I know. '''] ]''' 15:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::If they stick with that, that'll be good. Diversification isn't working out too well. ] (]) 15:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::But, umm ... ]? ] (]) 16:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::It’s not a blog. The ADL is a reliable source. '''] ]''' 16:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Aside from looking like a crap blog, it has blog in the URL and sits under the tag of "blog". I admire your tenacity in resisting this, but I'm not sure you can escape the self-evident reality here. ] (]) 17:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I don’t think you know what a blog is, or what a self-published source is. I see no reason to continue this discussion and would advise you to… actually read before you cite policy. '''] ]''' 17:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::Walks like a blog, looks like a blog, says it's a blog.....it's a blog. ] (]) 17:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::Couldn't really be quacking harder. ] (]) 18:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::Would you be willing to elaborate how (in the sense of policy, not name) you believe it meets the requirements for ] or ]? I think an argument can be made for the latter, I’m lost on how it could be the former. ] (]) 18:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::Newsblog -> Newsorgs (might be OK, depends, not auto assumed as OK) (ADL isn't a newsorg or even a newsmag)
	::::::::::::::::Blog No good unless expert author. ] (]) 18:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::Part of what the ADL does can be construed as news/reporting (construed broadly), so an application of the policy regarding news blogs could be reasonably argued for IMO.
	:::::::::::::::::On the other hand, it’s clearly non-analogous to a blog by a random person/group, but I guess this is something for the closer to interpret. ] (]) 18:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::Not a chance, its an advocacy group, CST does the same thing in the UK, dresses up a blog like it was news. ] (]) 18:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::::Based on a very cursory reading, I would also consider the HRW news tab to be RS as well, wouldn’t you? ] (]) 18:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::::::I consider HRW reports to be reliable. Anything else, depends. ] (]) 18:52, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::::::Then I appreciate how consistent your views are, and choose to disagree with that assessment as well ] (]) 18:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::I would not trust the ADL to be a reliable source for information on Jewish Voice for Peace. Nor an Israeli newspaper. ] (]) 16:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::Rejecting all newspapers from a country as unreliable is not only ridiculous - it’s bigoted. If this is genuinely something you believe in, not sure it’s worth further discussing anything. '''] ]''' 16:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::] - I suggest you retract that aspersion and AGF. ] (]) 19:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Why? I don’t trust anything PRC papers say about Taiwan or Falun Gong, and it’s not because I irrationally hate mainland Chinese as people. ] (]) 03:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::And, rather specifically, the claims that JVP have used "antisemitic tropes" is dependent on the assumption that anti-Zionism is intrinsically anti-Jewish. ] (]) 16:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Yeah, so, working off of the axiom that you believe the same things that the ADL believes, the ADL is correct. But that's some pretty circular logic. ] (]) 16:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::I think it more depends on whether you consider the examples in ] by the ] as part of the definition or whether you go by the ] which was drawn up to avoid the problems with the examples. I think it is pretty clear the ADL agrees with the examples and does not agree with the Jerusalem Declaration. I'm fine by the Jerusalem Declaration and I reject the idea of calling Jews antisemitic because they do not agree with the actions of Israel. ] (]) 19:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	:This section might be useful to brainstorm the simplest possible consensus statements, so as to avoid having multiple RSP entries, but thus far we mainly have involved participants restating their own opinions, but reframed as pseudodispassionate consensus statements. I guess I'll link a pet essay: ]. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 19:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
	*I come back after 10 days and somehow this has turned into a discussion about Trump on Xanax (my new band) and ] ] (]) 06:31, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
	: noting how she now disavows ADL data altogether (due to its deterioration) and just goes by FBI numbers. ] (]) 06:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
	::And not just any prof, ]. ] (]) 13:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
	====But seriously, what should be discerned from this?====
	Coming back to this with fresher eyes I see something vaguely resembling a consensus— the “option 1” voters are mostly leaning on the circular logic of “the ADL is authoritative because it’s widely treated as authoritative” or even “it’s authoritative because OF COURSE it is”, while most of the others who actually provide evidence and reasoning obviously fall under various degrees of “unreliable”. Specifically I think you could read this discussion as pointing towards “unreliable for uncritical statements on Antisemitism and I/P; potentially acceptable for cited opinions; hate symbols database unreliable due to lots of shallow, dubious information and lack of methodological transparency.” Thoughts? ] (]) 03:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:Apart from the database that does look like the consensus. On the database, there are relatively few 3 !votes. I think the consensus there is more like "OK but seek out more specialist sources". ] (]) 12:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:I disagree, but I am quite happy that I am not the person who has to close this, because trying to figure out the ratio of !votes and actual policy-based arguments seems to be an almost hopeless endeavour, including some rather novel factors used to establish (un-) reliability.
	:I think the only clear close is likely to be 3, probably a 2 with the additional consideration being something along the lines of "attribution and cautious use for historical background" ] (]) 12:14, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:I was going to point to the ] instead of the ADL so it wasn't circular, but in fact it seems the ADL was already going this way back in 1974 according to ]. ] (]) 12:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:“the ADL should be considered authoritative/reliable in[REDACTED] because it’s widely treated as authoritative/reifiable in reliable sources (both newspapers and scholarly works)” is not circular reasoning. It is the accepted Misplaced Pages policy of ].
	:And a note for Levivich: "Anti-Zionism is a type of antisemitism" is objectively true, at least in my opinion. Because denying the Jewish nation the right of self-determination while upholding it for other nations (e.g. the Palestinian nation) is using double standards against the Jewish nation, i.e. antisemitism.
	:And Dronebogus this is comment 2 out of 3 which you allowed me in your grace in this discussion. One left... ] (]) 15:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::If that's your objective opinion, then I recommend you do some more study both on what modern anti-zionism is today and on historic opposition to zionism. Far from being an inherently antisemitic position, it was one long held by large portions of the Jewish populace. Much of the objection in the years before the founding of the modern state of Israel was religious in nature, with some religious Jews feeling that this was a worrisome intersection of the religious and the political, while others holding that we were not supposed to return to Jerusalem until the messiah comes. This is not to say that an anti-Zionist belief cannot be reached for antisemitic reasons nor that it cannot be expressed in antisemitic ways; both are common. But there are other objections that folks have to Israel existing in the form and location that it does, and some of that is not only not in opposition to Judaism, but in direct embrace of it. -- ] (]) 17:50, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::Thanks for keeping count for me, not really getting the actual message that “you are commenting too much and your comments are mostly belligerent contrarianism” ] (]) 12:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	It's not circular logic to say the ADL is reliable because reliable sources say it is - that's exactly how we decide what's reliable. And there's been no evidence provided in this RfC that the ADL is regarded as anything less than authoritative by reliable, mainstream media outlets - even criticism acknowledge this. What comments that ''should'' be disregarded are ones that rely on personal opinions or judgements about the ADL that aren't backed up by reliable sources. '''] ]''' 13:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:It's also logic that belongs in the past. Here is '']'' on everything currently wrong with the ADL: . ] (]) 14:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::That article doesn’t seem to be saying that the ADL is unreliable - just that the author has disagrees with it on subjective matters. ] (]) 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::Yep - it says they are "the go-to American organization on antisemitism". So even if an opinion piece from ''Slate'' is to be seen as authoritative - which it shouldn't (the website is notorious for contrarian viewpoints, or "Slate Pitches") - all you've done is back up the fact that even opponents of the ADL know it's regarded authoritatively. '''] ]''' 14:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::Then I doubt you did more than just skim it. Read it again. It systematically works through all of the organisation's recent failings and lays numerous charges against it. If you can't see that, we must be looking at reality through mutually incompatible lenses. ] (]) 15:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::I read it fully - can you provide some quotes? I understand that the author strongly disagrees with the ADL, but nothing they say suggests the reason is objective, rather than subjective - and we cannot classify sources as unreliable based on subjective disagreements. ] (]) 15:11, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::"Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism" is objective, at least in my opinion. But I really do think that's ''objectively'' true. In the same that it's objectively true that anti-Pan-Arabism is not anti-Arab, or anti-Pan-Iranianism is not anti-Persian, and anti-Iranian-theocracy is not Islamophobic. ] (]) 15:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Considering that this is matter of some dispute, I would call it subjective, and also non-analogous to the examples made. The equivalent would be if an opposition to Palestinian self determination in any areas of Palestine is anti-Palestinian, where I think that a rather reasonable answer is yes. Note that this means anti-zionism in the literal and proper sense, not the way it is sometimes wrongly used as criticism of conduct by Israel/their government or past actions.
	::::::That being said, I think we are at IHRA again, so not sure how novel this discussion will be. ] (]) 15:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::I'm not sure where the dispute is. Mainly lobbyists and politicians like the IHRA definition. Even some of its authors have subsequently issues ''culpa mea'' statements over its undue conflation – and the IHRA is less extreme than the maximalist ADL position. By contrast, scholars including ] wrote the ], which 200 scholars signed, specifically to address antisemitism while avoiding the same muddling of issues and conflation. The IHRA, let alone the ADL's extrapolation of conflation to realms beyond, has never had a scholarly quorum behind it. ] (]) 16:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::It makes it very clear that the ADL is unreliable for applying the label antisemitic. It does not even correspond with what most young American Jews would describe as antisemitic. Their use of the term is not one we can use in Wikivoice. ] (]) 16:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)]
	:::::::::I agree that we should not use their definition in wikivoice… HOWEVER, they are prominent enough that I think we should mention their definition with in text attribution. Their ''opinion'' on what is (and is not) antisemitic ''matters''. The ADL is hardly fringe. ] (]) 16:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::Given that there are currently more Christian Zionists in the world than Jewish Zionists, the notion that anti-Zionism can even conflated with antisemitism is really quite risible. It only even arises to the level of discussion because misguided individuals and irresponsible organisations profer the notion up and need to be dismissed. That the ADL has gone down this track is the ultimate hallmark that it has gone full pro-Israeli lobby group, with Greenblatt apparently willing to drag the entire enterprise through the mud in order to tar political opponents of Israel. ] (]) 16:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Whether the Earth is flat is a matter of some dispute, but it's still objective. Whether vaccines cause autism is a matter of some dispute, but it's still objective. Just because somebody disputes something doesn't make it subjective. Don't forget that "Zionism" does not mean "Jewish self-determination." Nobody would think that being anti-Hamas would constitute being anti-Palestinian, and that is also objective. ] (]) 16:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::] does generally refer to some idea of a Jewish homeland through which they exercise the right to self determination </nowiki>], including according to the ADL ] (]) 17:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::No, no, no, not "some idea," a very specific idea. Why would you cite Britannica or the ADL for this? Look at the Misplaced Pages article, and sources cited therein. "is a nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century aiming for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people, particularly in Palestine." Zionism, especially modern Zionism, is a political, nationalist movement for the establishment of a Jewish state <u>in Palestine</u>. That last part being extremely important.
	:::::::::Look, if a person believes in the one-state solution, where the state does not practice Jewish supremacy -- meaning it does not give rights to Jews that are not given to non-Jews -- then that is anti-Zionism. It is ''not'' antisemitic.
	:::::::::This boils down to an old question: can Israel be both Jewish and democratic? If it's Jewish -- if it gives rights to Jews that are not given to non-Jews -- then it's not democratic. If it's democratic, then it won't be Jewish (indeed, due to demographics, Jews may not even be a majority in a potential one-state solution). The majority of Israelis, and Jews around the world, think (according to polling) that Israel should be Jewish, even if that means it's less democratic. A minority of Israelis/Jews think that Israeli should be democratic, even if that makes it less Jewish (like not majority-Jewish). This minority opinion is, objectively, ''not'' antisemitic. The ADL says it is antisemitic. This is the problem. ] (]) 17:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::I disagree, but we are going in circles here, so I’ll just reiterate my invitation from the other comment as not to clutter this up with the same discussions we all fruitlessly had above. I hope others agree as well, continuing this will just make the close harder. ] (]) 17:11, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Idk, claim->rebuttal seems like a straight line to me, not a circle. ] (]) 17:23, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Sure, let’s start simply: cite a place where the ADL explicitly says that advocacy for an OSS by a Jewish person is per se antisemitism? Because that was discussed above, and there wasn’t one.
	::::::::::::Secondly, the definition of Zionism vary, particularly in the modern context, and there just isn’t a mainstream agreement on exact scope, even if you discount all that are as close to objectively wrong as a political definition can be ] (]) 17:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::{{tq2|Look, if a person believes in the one-state solution, where the state does not practice Jewish supremacy -- meaning it does not give rights to Jews that are not given to non-Jews -- then that is anti-Zionism.}}
	::::::::::Not really true: see ], who believes in a one-state solution that does not give special rights to Jews, but who is still a Zionist and who still staunchly believes in a Jewish state in Palestine. He just thinks that Jewish state should include full voting and civil rights for the Palestinians. But it wouldn't, symbolically, be their state.
	::::::::::(And as far as I can tell, when one-state solutions show up in Israeli politics they tend to look like this. Something similar was also advocated by older forms of Zionism that supported a bi-national state.) ] (]) 17:25, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::+1 ] (]) 17:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::That's not a one state solution, that's a "version of a one state solution," without Gaza. ] (]) 13:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::This is my last comment on this discussion. @], When you look at all the Arab states and the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict, it seems quite likely that a "one state solution" where the Jews will be a minority, wouldn't be a fully democratic state and the Jews would likely be persecuted there to some degree. But even if miraculously it will turn out to be the first fully democratic Arab state and Jews could live there safely and enjoy full equality, it would still not be a fulfillment of the Jewish right of self-determination. For example, the Czechs, Polish, and Hungarians were all enjoying safety and equal rights in the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the beginning of the 20<sup>th</sup> century and yet at the end of WW1 it was internationally accepted that the right of self-determination means that they should all be given independent states. If someone said then that these nations should stay under the Austrian rule and be satisfied with their equal rights there, then such a position would rightly be considered anti-Polish, anti-Czech and anti-Hungarian.
	::::::::::Dronebogus this was comment 3 out of 3. From now on I shall keep forever silent in this discussion... ] (]) 18:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Another thing to remember: if anti-Zionism were antisemitic, then a Jewish person who is against Zionism would, according to this "logic," hate Jews, which means they'd be a "self-hating Jew." The idea that anti-Zionist Jews are self-hating Jews, or that they hate Jews, or that they're antisemitic... all of that is, well, antisemitic. And demonstrably wrong. Not a reasonable opinion to hold. It's objectively true, at least in my opinion, that Jews who are against Zionism do not hate themselves or other Jews. It's not a matter where reasonable people can disagree. And this is why the ADL's recent AZ=AS stance is making so many people upset. It must be remembered that AZ=AS is ''not'' a reasonable opinion, no more than saying that being against Intifada is Islamophobic. This is just patent nonsense. In my opinion :-P ] (]) 16:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::Anecdotally, there are about as many Jewish people who deeply hate
	::::::::every actively antizionist Jews as there are such Jews, but if you ask me, neither group is antisemitic, just often misguided (and occasionally malicious). And just to be clear, you can definitely be biased against your own group, no serious person would argue that a gay person can’t be homophobic.
	::::::::While this is very interesting, we are getting to for OT here, please feel cordially invited to my talk page if you would like to continue. ] (]) 17:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	:But seriously, new sections for involved parties to reiterate their arguments under the guise of "consensus" aren't helpful. Also, ] != "circular logic". &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 17:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::I feel quite bad for whichever poor admin gets tasked with closing this RfC. ] ] 19:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
	::We need to figure out what we’re supposed to be getting out of this, otherwise it’s just an extremely long ] for people to argue about ADL and antisemitism. And I’m reading a consensus of “not reliable” in broad strokes that keeps getting drowned out by digression and contrarianism. ] (]) 12:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::Not "we," an uninvolved closer. ] (]) 13:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::Then I think an uninvolved closer should come along and close this because it’s getting ridiculously long and increasingly unproductive ] (]) 13:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::While you may see a consensus for unreliability (no surprising, given how you !voted), I see a very strong no consensus (no surprise, given how I !voted). An uninvolved closer is going to be essential here, and it's probably going to be a shitshow afterwords. '''] ]''' 14:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::Nah, easy close (sorry, closer). ] (]) 14:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::{{tq|No consensus, tldr.}} ] (]) 16:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	====Comment leaderboard====
	As best as I can tell, here are the comment counts across the above ADL sections:
	*Vegan416: 73
	*FortunateSons: 70
	*Iskandar323: 67
	*SelfStudier: 58
	*BobFromBrockley: 37
	*LokiTheLiar: 29
	*Levivich: 27
	*Toa Nidhiki05: 25
	*Nableezy: 22
	*BilledMammal: 17
	Id suggest if you dont feel youve gotten your point across after 20 comments that comments 21-10000 will not be helpful, and at a certain point dominating a discussion like this is straightforward bludgeoning that should be reported as disruptive editing. This is not a partisan request, my own name is on that list, as are editors who have had similar positions of mine. But if you have made this many comments, trust that people know what your position is at this point, and please for the love of anything you hold dear stop adding to the count. ''']''' - 15:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:Agreed, thank you for taking the time to write it all down.
	:I think if no-one is opposed, all people listed should (if not completely) refrain for 48h and see if this discussion is even alive without them, otherwise we’re all beating a dead horse here. Is someone willing to join me? ] (]) 16:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::Another unnecessary comment, lol. This one as well, tho. ] (]) 16:06, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::]. ] (]) 16:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::This discussion weighs in at {{tomats|51000}}. Closing it is the work of reading two novellas, digesting and weighing the arguments, and then summarizing it. It's over three hours ''just to read'', disregarding the necessary note taking and weighing to craft a close. This is why everyone needs to say their piece and leave shit alone. ] (]) 17:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::I was going to reply to the idea lab discussion but its archived, anyway what I would have said is that well timed administrative interventions like the one you just made should be enough to keep things on track. My 2 cents. ] (]) 17:38, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::You don't think that a 500 or 1000 word limit down at ] would be helpful? Also, every time I've popped into a discussion to remind people that someone has to close it, and that prolonged exchanges between the same editors aren't productive, keep uninvolved parties from engaging, and make closing far more difficult no one actually stops the back and forths. ] (]) 17:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	:::::: ] (]) 17:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	::::::I could have sworn you knew what ''discretionary'' sanctions meant. ''']''' - 18:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
	== Stop using The Times of Israel as a source for Israel-Palestine conflict news. ==
	] has shown itself to be biased in favor of Israel on multiple occasions, such as where they put an Israeli report above internationally recognized reports about Gaza’s humanitarian crisis, and where they refer to ] as a "field hospital", and the civilians held there as "October 7 suspects". ] (]) 02:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Have they published anything about the Israel-Palestine conflict that has been shown to be false? ] (]) 02:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:This is a question of ] and ]. Opinions and controversial facts sourced to the ToI are unlikely to be due unless balanced with contrasting opinions, attribution is likely necessary in many cases. The use of "field hospital" to describe a detention camp is unlikely to be due at all.
	:It will have very useful factual information about the Israeli perspective on the conflict, especially the thinking of members of the genocidal regime and its armed forces, but it must be used with care due to its level of bias, the lack of freedom of speech and level of self-censorship within Israel at the current moment.] (]) 05:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:@] First of all your tone is highly problematic. This is not how we start discussions here. We present questions for discussion. We don't give orders to the entire Misplaced Pages community. Second, there is nothing problematic with the article about the "famine". It just reports about the position of the Israeli health ministry on the subject. Third, regarding the Sde-Teman facility, the and also say there is a field-hospital there. ] (]) 08:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	::They describe it as a field hospital at a detention camp, which is different. The whistleblowers' evidence regards torture at the detention camp as a whole. Saying Sde-Teman is a "field hospital for October 7th suspects", when in fact it is a detention camp for any males captured by the Israeli army in locations they deem likely to hold Hamas/other fighters is worrying. This is a good example of why we must use ToI with care.--] (]) 09:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::The ToI article also describes this facility in the same way "The hospital is near the city of Beersheba in southern Israel. It opened beside a detention center on a military base after the October 7 Hamas attack". And "Israeli human rights groups say the majority of detainees have at some point passed through Sde Teiman, the country’s largest detention center. Doctors there say they have treated many who appeared to be non-combatants". You apparently didn't read the whole article, and judge it based only on the title... ] (]) 09:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::The wording is bad in the article in several places, the article draws a line between the two facilities that no other source does. Again, I think it is clear that the degree of bias and limitations on free speech in Israel means that we need to be careful with these type of sources. This of course does not mean we can't use it.] (]) 12:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I have shown that the Guardian and CNN also draw a line between the facilities. Also it seems that the people who were the sources for this article worked in medical jobs there, so the emphasis on the hospital part seems reasonable. I also disagree completely with your claim that there are significant limitations on the freedom of the Times of Israel. This article actually proves the opposite. ] (]) 14:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:The fact that they published an article about Sde Teiman and did some journalistic work themselves to investigate the abuses committed by "their" side actually shows that it's a reliable and valuable source. ]<sub>]</sub> 09:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	This is one of the better Israeli media in my experience, a little biased but comparatively less so than others. Byline "TOI staff" should be avoided and attribution for controversial material, but otherwise I think its OK. ] (]) 08:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:All sources on this are biased, and by that I include the New York Times etc., which the other day attributed to the Israeli government a plan which other sources said substantially met the core demands of the Hamas authority, a plan which Israel promptly rebuffed. Were bias the criterion, then we would be close to having no secondary sources at our disposition. ] (]) 08:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	: Its news reporting is better than most of the Israeli press. Its opinion pages are frequently written by lunatics and should be ignored. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 09:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Can you tell us which of the writers featured in the OPs section today is a lunatic , and why do you think so? ] (]) 09:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::ToI blogs are obviously unreliable unless written by an expert. ] (]) 09:56, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Come on Vegan416, you can't be telling people "We don't give orders to the entire Misplaced Pages community" (which is not really a rule, rather, a popular activity/comedy goldmine), then ask someone to name names, thus potentially violating ]. ] (]) 10:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::I didn't order him. I asked him. Can't you tell the difference between ordering the entire community to stop using a source, and asking someone a question? Also, obviously Zero did not use the word "lunatic" here as a certified psychiatric diagnosis but rather as his political opinion, which therefore doesn't violate WP:BLP in any way. ] (]) 10:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Yes, apparently I can tell the difference between 'order' and 'ask' using the difference in symbols. That's probably why I wrote 'ask' rather than 'order', although I can't be sure. Anyway, I'm not trying to get into an argument with you. I was merely pointing out what looked like a mistake to me. If you are interested in testing ], it's probably better to do it yourself. ] (]) 11:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Well, I'm not the one who labelled here a whole group of specific people as potentially "lunatics". So whatever concerns you may have regarding WP:BLP should be aimed at Zero and not at me. ] (]) 11:41, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	::In addition to Nishidani's point, our policies do not require reliable sources to be unbiased or even neutral. They do require them to be accurate in context of the material they are being used to source/reference. The issue with the TOI isnt one of bias, its that it frequently publishes what amounts to Israeli government line with little-to-no editorial comment or critical evaluation. So when the Israeli government goes into misinformation mode, the TOI reflects this. Its incredibly low-value when compared to most reputable non-Israeli news organisations on the subject of Israel government and state actions, even taking into account bias. Its certainly reliable if you want to know what the Israeli government wants people to think/believe. ] (]) 10:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Do you have a few examples of them uncritically reporting something you would describe as: '' Israeli government goes into misinformation mode, the TOI reflects this. Its incredibly low-value when compared to most reputable non-Israeli news organisations on the subject of Israel government and state actions, even taking into account bias '' ] (]) 13:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	ToI is generally reliable for good reasons. They do original reporting (though I concur with others that some of their opinion pieces are of mixed quality in text and author), but removing any citation simply because it’s ToI will be highly inappropriate 99% of the time. Bias (which they are significantly less affected by than many others) is not unreliability. ] (]) 12:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
	I agree with Boynamedsue, Nishidani, Selfstudier and Alaexis. No source on this contentious topic is perfect; we should be wary of being overreliant on any one source; but bias is not unreliability and this is basically usable with the usual caveats. ] (]) 16:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Strongly agree with Bobfrombrockley here. TOI is generally reliable. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:This may not be obvious to most editors, but the central use-case for TOI and, to a lesser extent, JPost, is as aggregation of Hebrew-language media. Many stories are only available in English via these outlets, and they are usually reliable translators. NOTE: This is to the exclusion of specialized legal, religious, or military subjects. TOI and JPost do not have the expertise to translate these articles correctly (no one with legal, military analysis, or Orthodox-religious higher education on staff) and the result is often seriously distorted.
	:Although w/r/t religious and technical detail a similar concern attaches to every daily newspaper, I would never prefer TOI for any claim that a monolingual outlet had equal ability to report. For example, I spoke with Jacob Magid last year for a story regarding UN diplomacy. He had badly misunderstood his source, unlike mainstream outlets. There is no reason to use TOI for such a claim.
	:Anyway, there's a category of such publications for every foreign language, and it does no one any good to restrict our citations to equal-quality foreign-language sources that most editors can't even evaluate. ] (]) 01:40, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	== RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues ==
	<!-- ] 02:01, 8 July 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1720404072}}
	{{rfc|pol|soc||rfcid=AB773D5}}
	What is the reliability of the Telegraph on trans issues?
	* '''Option 1: ]'''		* '''Option 1: ]'''
Line 1,247:		Line 565:
	* '''Option 3: ]'''		* '''Option 3: ]'''
	* '''Option 4: ]'''		* '''Option 4: ]'''
	] (]) 01:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			] ] 10:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	=== Survey (Telegraph on trans issues) ===
	: '''Option 3''', and I'd vote 4 if I thought deprecating in a single topic area made sense. The Telegraph has lied repeatedly about trans issues. In one case, it promoted the ] about a British school , and even when the hoax was they didn't retract or correct any of it. In fact, in the final article in the series it seems to double down on its dubious claim despite it directly being proven false. Also the second article in that series makes several other similar hoax claims that are completely and totally unsourced.
	: This wasn't a one-off incident either. Here are several more examples of the Telegraph going beyond simple bias and directly saying false things about trans people or trans issues:
	::1. They regularly ask anti-trans interest groups for comment while calling them subject-matter experts or trying to disguise their affiliation. See (James Esses is not and has never been a therapist and Thoughtful Therapists is an anti-trans interest group), (the idea that the UN is violating international law with a tweet is pretty transparently ridiculous, and yet they have the person saying that positioned as an expert), and (anti-trans interest group Sex Matters is positioned as {{tq|a women's rights group}}) but there are many many other examples.
	::2. They've that trans women are men or trans men are women, which is not in keeping with the opinions of most sources on this topic. And they're not even consistent on this, this is a factual question they don't appear to have a single position on either way. One way or the other they ''must'' be saying something false.
	::3. they try very hard to cast doubt on what reading between the lines appears to be a medical fact that the medical community has come to a consensus on. Similarly see , which appears to just be anti-trans activists whining about a study that came to a conclusion they don't like.
	: I'm not just going based off direct evidence either: there is plenty of as well. I have because it's frankly unending. ] (]) 01:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	{{cot|Long reply chains}}
	::Where did they promote the litter boxes in schools thing? I can't find it in the articles you linked. The only mention I could find in those articles was them saying it was a hoax? {{tq|tales of schools providing litter trays to cater for children identifying as cats, have turned out to be hoaxes}} Did you link the wrong articles, or am I missing something here? ] (]) 05:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::What you're missing is that according to ], it's not just about literal litter boxes but any accommodation for students that identify as animals. Sorry for the lack of clarity, but I partly blame it on the article title and the lead being so strongly focused on this particular iteration of the hoax, when the rest of the article has followed the myth as it's actually evolved. ] (]) 15:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::There was no mention of a litter box. The viewpoint seems to be that any mention of a child identifying as an animal is an example of the litterbox hoax.--] (]) 07:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Addressing a few different points discussed here:
	::* As noted above, the statement that the Telegraph "promoted the litter boxes in schools hoax" is misleading at best.
	::** The Telegraph does not mention that litter boxes were involved in this incident. In fact, places the incident in its broader context and denies the hoax: {{tq2|Stories about children self-identifying as animals – sometimes referred to as “furries” – have been circulating for some time. Some of them, such as tales of schools providing litter trays to cater for children identifying as cats, have turned out to be hoaxes, which has made it all too easy to assume that the problem is either a myth or is wildly exaggerated.}}
	::** The and articles do not show that the story was "directly proven false". The central question here is whether a student truly had a feline identity. These articles do not disprove that. They state that an investigation exonerated the behavior of the teacher and school (reprimanding the students who mocked the idea of a feline identity).
	::** In general, pointing to an article from an otherwise reliable source and saying "This story resembles other incidents that were hoaxes, therefore this is also false and an instance of the hoax" is not a sound argument. Consider the example of ]. The Misplaced Pages page says that snuff films are an urban legend because there are videos of people being murdered, but none of them have been sold for profit. But if such a film were to emerge and be sold for profit, and then be reported on by a reliable source, we wouldn't say "This is clearly an example of the snuff film hoax, therefore we should deprecate the source that reported it".
	::* describes James Esses as {{tq|a co-founder of Thoughtful Therapists, a group of counsellors and psychologists concerned with impact of gender ideology on young people}}. Esses is a counsellor according to , which calls him {{tq|a children’s counsellor and trainee psychotherapist}}. If Esses is indeed a counsellor, then there is nothing wrong with saying he is part of "a group of counsellors and psychologists".
	::* The characterization of as "whining" does not appear to be a good-faith summary of the article. The IOC paper's critics raise several issues that, if true, are significant and problematic: small sample size, self-selection bias, failure to control for important variables like hormone treatment and body fat percentage, etc. It is not "whining" to raise these concerns.
	::* The ] linked further down is largely unconvincing in terms of reliability issues. Stories are described as "extremely dodgy", "dubious", and "suspicious", but with no explanation for why this is so. Without further elaboration, this strikes me as precisely what the IOC study's critics are being accused of—complaining about articles with an unfavorable perspective—but from the opposite direction.
	:: ] (]) 08:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::It is perhaps important to point out that seemingly the only mention of litterboxes wre this in The Telegraph (search query: "telegraph litterboxes lgbtq") is ] (]) 14:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::See above: the ] is about any accommodation, not just litter boxes, and this is clear if you read the examples and not just the lead. ] (]) 15:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::That is not the way it is framed in the article or how a reasonable person would understand it.-] (]) 15:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Yes it is? The article uses all the following as examples of the hoax:
	:::::* {{tq|In January 2022, Michelle Evans, a Texan Republican running for congress, claimed that cafeteria tables were "being lowered in certain Round Rock Independent School District middle and high schools to allow 'furries' to more easily eat without utensils or their hands". The school district denied the claims.}}
	:::::* {{tq|In March 2022, a conservative commentator promoted claims that the Waunakee School District in Wisconsin had a "furry protocol" specifying the rules for furries, including being "allowed to dress in their choice of furry costumes" and "choose not to run in gym class but instead sit at the feet of their teacher and lick their paws".}}
	:::::* {{tq|Several Republican lawmakers in the U.S. state of North Dakota sponsored legislation to prohibit schools from adopting "a policy establishing or providing a place, facility, school program, or accommodation that caters to a student's perception of being any animal species other than human". In January 2024, Oklahoma representative Justin Humphrey introduced legislation that would ban students that identify as animals or who "engage in anthropomorphic behavior" from participating in school activities and allow animal control to remove the student from the premises.}}
	:::::"Litter boxes" specifically is the central example of the hoax but it's not the only way it can manifest. ] (]) 16:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::{{re|LokiTheLiar}} Let's assume any claim of accomodations for animal-identifying students is a hoax (even though you have been unable to show that despite being pressed on this issue by many people).
	::::Can you provide some actual examples of The Telegraph saying that students identifying as cats receive accomodations? More specifically, some kind of quote? Accommodation is a broad term; a student could self-ID as a variety of things and yet not need individualized accomodations from the school. If your claim is that The Telegraph falsely promoted the idea that students received accomodations for identifying as animals, you should be able to '''a) point to specific examples of accomodations and b) quote The Telegraph saying that students received those particular accomodations'''. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 16:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::The articles repeatedly claim that a teacher punished another student for denying the animal identity. That sounds like an accommodation to me, right? ] (]) 16:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::] (such as punishing other students) are not an "accommodation" in the same way as ] (such as providing litter boxes). And the litter box hoax article contains no similar stories where students or school officials were punished for refusing to respect any feline identities. This story does not slide into the "litter box hoax" framework as neatly as you want it to. ] (]) 17:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::This said it better than I could. Even if the claim that {{!tq|students identifying as animals receive rights to services matching their chosen animal identity}} is false in every case, that's not even what LokiTheLiar is saying The Telegraph said. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 18:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::@] Okay then, so, was the story true?
	:::::::Even if you disagree that it's an example of this particular hoax, it's still definitely false reporting every day for a week, right? IMO this "which hoax is it" stuff is a red herring: it sounds compelling but doesn't actually make the Telegraph any more reliable that they promoted a false claim that was merely ''similar'' to a well-known hoax rather than an actual example of it. And again, never corrected nor retracted said false claim. And tried to imply it was true even in an article directly mentioning the proof that it was false. ] (]) 21:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::I'm just now entering the discussion, so I may have missed this, but...what exactly did the Telegraph say that was "proven false"? I'm having a hard time finding it. ] (]) 21:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::They claimed multiple times that a student identified as an animal, and that a teacher strongly insulted another student who questioned this identification. None of this is true according to the school itself. It's a misinterpretation of a (real) recording, on which the idea of identifying as an animal was brought up ''rhetorically'' to insult a trans student. ] (]) 23:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::The claim you're disputing is {{tq|that a teacher punished another student for denying the animal identity}}. This claim is true. A student was reprimanded for denying "animal identity". There is a recording of the incident. The only dispute is whether or not the student was reprimanded for denying a ''specific classmate's'' identity as a cat, or the general idea of students identifying as cats. The recording suggested that it was a specific classmate, the school denied that any student identified as a cat a week later, and an external report didn't take one side or the other. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 22:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::It's not true at all. The student was reprimanded for attacking another student's very real ''trans'' identity ''using the metaphor of'' animal identity. ] (]) 23:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::Let me make sure I'm getting this straight, @] and @].
	::::::::::A student at a school (call them student #1) identified as trans. Another student (student #2) objected in some way to acknowledging student #1's trans identity, and rhetorically brought up animal identity...i.e. "if we respect student #1's identity, what's next, does that mean we have to respect animal identity, too?" Then, the teacher reprimanded student #2, and told student #2, essentially, "yes, if a student identified as an animal, you would have to respect that, and it's insensitive and wrong to not respect animal identity."
	::::::::::But the Telegraph missed the "rhetorically" part, and instead inaccurately reported that student #1 '''actually''' identified as an animal.
	::::::::::Obviously I am paraphrasing, but do I have the gist correct? Want to make sure I understand the objections before I weigh in on the survey. Thanks. ] (]) 01:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::One small misunderstanding; the Telegraph never reported that student #1 actually identified as an animal; they only reported that students #2 and #3 were reprimanded for not accepting classmate #1 identifying as an animal, which is true. ] (]) 01:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Close, but the teacher didn't say "yes, if a student identified as an animal, you would have to respect that". She just said, essentially, "you're being very disrespectful and you need to stop".
	:::::::::::BilledMammal above is incorrect, here's the direct quote of what they said: {{tq|A school teacher told a pupil she was “despicable” after she refused to accept that her classmate identifies as a cat.}} Clearly this is also saying that her classmate identifies as a cat for the same reason that {{tq|The queen refused to accept the prime minister's resignation}} is also saying that the prime minister resigned. ] (]) 01:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::You keep using {{tq|The queen refused to accept the prime minister's resignation}}, but the equivalent hypothetical would be {{tq|The king chastised the queen for refusing to accept the prime minister's resignation}}. Clearly, the statement remains true regardless of whether the prime minister actually resigned.
	::::::::::::In addition, at the time of publication, no one knew whether the classmate actually identified as a cat or not, and as such there was clearly no issue with them not taking a stance on whether the classmate did identify as a cat. ] (])
	:::::::::::::If you really insist, I will use the longer example, because it clearly doesn't make a lick of difference. You cannot make a false claim not false or not a claim by adding more subordinate clauses. ] (]) 03:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::A question to all participants. Where can we see a full, accurate and reliable transcript of this video, or even better the full unedited video itself? ] (]) 04:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::The best option is the Daily Mail's one which has captions but is edited to have scary music on top of it. ] is deprecated for a reason though, so I'd take anything not substantiated by another source with a grain of salt. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 05:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::I've placed a transcript here if you don't want to sit through the Daily Mail vid:
	::::::::::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Void_if_removed/sandbox/Catgate_transcript ] (]) 13:20, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::{{re|Pecopteris}} Pretty much. I think the teacher was less clear than you're making it out to be, but you have the gist of it. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 02:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::There are two examples referring to extreme non-litter tray accommodations in our article, but the point is that they were not true. Hence the word "hoax". The Telegraph does not make any claim of accommodations, merely stating that children were called despicable for refusing to identify a classmate (who it does not specify is real or hypothetical) as a cat.] (]) 16:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Loki, please stop moving this down to discussion; you don't get to present your arguments and deny those who disagree with those arguments the opportunity to reject them in context.
	::As a general rule, if you are going to hat or move something, the highest level reply included within the hatting or moving should be one ''you'' made. For example, you could move 15:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC), but not 05:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC). ] (]) 04:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::I find it incredible that you won't let me move a discussion that's several pages long down to the Discussion section where it clearly belongs.
	:::Let me ping an uninvolved admin to settle this. @], twice now I have tried to move this incredibly long thread responding to my !vote to the Discussion section. Twice now BilledMammal has brought it back up, and this time they're accusing me of attempting to eke out some sort of advantage by doing this. Could you please settle where it belongs? ] (]) 04:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::Loki, I don’t see you moving your own rebuttals to others !votes down to discussion.
	::::As I said, if you want to shorten this, do so from your own replies; allow the immediate rebuttals to stand, and move your replies to those rebuttals, and all conversation from those replies, down to discussion. ] (]) 04:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I put comments I expect are going to lead to long threads in the discussion section in the first place. But I do and have moved other threads many times without regard to whether or not it helps "my side". Honestly the idea you think this is partisan is baffling and is indicative of a huge ] attitude.
	:::::I'm not moving just my comments down because that wouldn't help. There are five responses to my !vote, counting this thread, and one of them is a ]. If you want I can move the whole thread including the !vote down and re-vote, but that would make several other people's !votes not make a lot of sense in context so I'd rather not do that either.
	:::::(Why did you put this in the Survey section, by the way? It's clearly not a !vote, you could have put it in Discussion and pinged me.) ] (]) 05:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::IMHO, we might as well leave everything as-is and just stop making the wall of text bigger. If anyone has more to say about this thread, just put it in the discussion section and ping everyone from this thread. Cheers. ] (]) 05:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::The general rule, when refactoring a discussion you are involved in, is don't refactor in a way that gives you the last word.
	::::::As for just moving down just your comments, and the responses to your comments, it would reduce the length of the responses from ~2600 to ~800. For context, the length of your !vote is ~800. If your concern is length, I'm not sure how removing ~1800 words wouldn't help.
	::::::No objection to moving this discussion over refactoring down to discussion. ] (]) 06:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::At least 3 editors have independently brought the !vote out of the moving/collapsing now. I hope that we can take that as consensus. ] (]) 02:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	{{cob}}
	* '''Option 3'''. The Telegraph is generally unreliable for topics involving transgender people, matters, etc. There is extensive evidence that the Telegraph's coverage of trans topics defies relevant academic consensus around the reality of trans experience and existence and favors sensationalist parroting of rumors without contextualizing the content ''as'' unreliable rumors. Secondary sources, including scholarly pieces published by academic presses ] and ] as well as conventional journalism, have reported on this unreliability. This unreliability cannot be reduced to a "bias" that editors are expected to filter out when citing the coverage. A "bias" is an implied frown or favor; it's not a failure to get facts right or a disregard for academic consensus. The Telegraph's coverage entails the latter. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 02:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. It was extensively proven that ''The Telegraph'' constantly propagates blatant lies and misinformation regarding transgender topics. <span style="border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span><span style="background:#6E41B5;border:1px solid #6E41B5;padding:2px">]</span> 03:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' We're not quite at Option 4 yet on trans topics in particular, but we're rapidly approaching that with ''The Telegraph''s seeming turn toward ''Daily Mail'' esque misinformation when it comes to topics involving transgender people. Actively promoting extreme fringe people without including their pseudoscience position in their articles, making up incidents and conversations that didn't actually occur in events involving trans people and gender identity and then trying to pass things off as "well, the things we said could be true and may still be true" is some high level gaslighting nonsense from a supposed mainstream news source. Like I said, we're not quite at Option 4 yet, but I feel like we're teetering on a knife's edge and one more extreme case of this sort from the paper would push it over. ]]<sup>]</sup> 03:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. The evidence provided here by Loki distorts the articles and mainly hinges on The Telegraph not taking a pro-trans viewpoint, same as the last RfC. The Telegraph never said students have litterboxes in schools, did proper journalistic due-diligence on the possibly cat-identifying student, quoting opposing views on a subject is standard journalism, and saying that "trans women aren't biological women" doesn't make it unreliable. A drug that the manufacturer states could be harmful to breastfeeding babies does in fact make chestmilk less safe and a self-selected study of 69 people does not conclusively prove that trans women are worse at sports than cis women.
	:To go point-by-point (starting with the 0th), The Telegraph never promoted the "litterboxes in schools" hoax. The articles cited by {{u|LokiTheLiar}} claimed students identified as animals, not that they requested accommodation in the form of litterboxes. The first claim is much more believable than the second, and was based on a recorded conversation in which a teacher at Rye College asserted a student was offended because their identity as a cat was questioned.
	::Specifically, this controversy was because a student was reprimanded for not accepting that a classmate of theirs could identify as a cat. This student recorded the conversation and leaked it to the media. The contents of the conversation itself implied that a classmate *did* identify as a cat, which Pink News acknowledged. {{tq|In the recording, which was shared with the press, the teacher is also heard saying that a student had upset a fellow pupil by “questioning their identity” after the student asked, “how can you identify as a cat when you’re a girl?”}} And when The Telegraph initially asked the school for comment, they did not deny the story. While the school later denied the claims of cats in schools, that does not invalidate the original reporting which was based on a recorded conversation. There was also no "debunking" of the original story beyond the school's denial that students identified as cats. The Guardian said: {{tq|Although the report does not directly address the argument between the teacher and pupils, or the question of whether any pupils identify as animals, it praises the quality of staff training and teaching of relationship and sex education “in a sensitive and impartial way”}} in reference to whether or not the Ofsted report indirectly cited by Loki debunked the claim that students identified as animals.
	::It's bizarre to claim that The Telegraph knowingly spread false information when the contents of the recording the story was based on indicated that a student did identify as a cat, and the school did not even dispute the truthfulness of the allegation. How were they supposed to know that this was false when they published the story?
	::If Loki wants to refute my point that The Telegraph said that animal-identifying students are getting litterboxes in schools, '''merely provide a quote''' from the article saying so.
	:In response to Loki's first point, that quoting anti-transgender activist groups makes The Telegraph unreliable, this is standard journalistic practice. A newspaper giving both sides of the story does not make it unreliable. Loki's standard, that The Telegraph should ''not'' quote any anti-trans activists when covering transgender-related topics, is untenable. The Telegraph does not misrepresent Esses' affiliation by describing him as a therapist, only as a spokesperson for a group of therapists.
	::In more detail, James Esses is a spokesperson for Thoughtful Therapists. He is passionate about this issue because he was thrown out of his master's program for holding gender-critical beliefs. One does not have to be a therapist to be an activist about therapy. Should the ] be deplatformed because it's chief organizer, ], was fired from his job at Amazon?
	::In the first article cited by Loki , the article accurately describes Esses as {{tq|a co-founder of Thoughtful Therapists, a group of counsellors and psychologists concerned with impact of gender ideology on young people}} The article does not say that he is a therapist, and it describes his group as an entity that advocates against gender ideology.
	::The second article provides a quote saying that the tweet {{tq|Remember, trans lesbians are lesbians too. Let’s uplift and honour every expression of love and identity.}} contravenes the ]. While Loki describes this as {{tq|pretty transparently ridiculous}}, ], the ], said in an official position paper from the UN that {{tq|Building on the implicit understanding that the word “woman” refers to biological females, the CEDAW Committee’s reference to lesbian women can only be understood to mean biological females that are attracted to biological females}} Unless Loki proposes to say that the United Nations is also unreliable on interpreting its own treaties, the claim that "trans lesbians are lesbians" does, in fact, contravene CEDAW.
	::The third article says that Sex Matters is a women's rights group. They advocate for what they see as women's rights, which they don't view as including trans women. At best, this demonstrates that The Telegraph is biased in favour of a gender-critical viewpoint since they're adopting the preferred verbiage of such. This isn't a factual distortion and isn't very ] given that the UN says women's rights refer to ciswomen's rights.
	:On Loki's 2nd point, the statement that trans women are women or that trans men are men is a litmus test for agreement with the ]. It's a commonly-held political position, one held by the ] and the Education Secretary of the UK . Proposing to designate The Telegraph as unreliable on that basis alone is illogical since by that logic we should get rid of ]. But the sources Loki provided don't even authoritatively state that trans women aren't women.
	::Loki's first source says that {{tq|It means male patients who do not claim to live as women have the right to choose to stay on women’s wards.}} It criticizes the idea that people assigned male at birth who have not received gender-reassignment surgery nor made any effort to physically transition can self-identify as women to be assigned to women's only wards in hospitals; many people who haven't legally transitioned to female can be treated in hospitals in women-only environments. In other words, the Telegraph says that '''people identifying but not-legally-recognized-as trans women are not women'''. At no point does the article "directly allege" that trans women are not women.
	::Loki's second source says that a 13-year-old socially transitioned without the mother of such knowing. The ], a systemic review of evidence in the field of transgender medicine, points out the same concerns on page 160, point 12.16, and says that socially transitioning young girls could reinforce feelings of gender incongruence. Saying that a socially transitioned 13-year-old might not really be trans is not saying that "trans women are not women" and that is not asserted in the article.
	::Loki's third source does dispute that trans women are women, but appears to be an outside opinion piece from Richard Garside, who "is the director of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies". That's not an official policy of the newspaper, and per ], opinion pieces already have a lower standard of reliability.
	::Loki's fourth source says that there is a distinction between biological sex and gender, then acknowledges that students ''can'' change gender, i.e. be transgender.
	::It is telling that Loki did not provide any quotes from these articles despite the claim that they all "alleged directly" this claim. If they make these direct allegations, one should be able to provide quotes for the ones I have refuted.
	:For Loki's third point, the first article just reports that transgender women can produce milk to feed babies and an NHS trust says that this is equivalent to normal breastmilk. Then it discusses how the patient leaflet for the drug used to facilitate this, Motilium, says {{tq|Small amounts have been detected in breastmilk. Motilium may cause unwanted side effects affecting the heart in a breastfed baby. should be used during breastfeeding only if your physician considers this clearly necessary.}} I'm not sure how the claim that trans women's breastmilk is safe is {{tq|a medical fact that the medical community has come to a consensus on}}, when Loki literally said that they "read between the lines" to get to that conclusion and caveated their statement with an "appears to be". If one is going to say that this is the consensus of the medical community maybe provide some citations instead of just assuming things are true because of a dislike of The Telegraph?
	:The second article for Loki's third point quotes Dr. Ross Tucker, a respected sports scientist, saying that the study compared unathletic trans women to athletic cis women. It had a self-selected participant base of 69 volunteers responding to a social media advertisement. The claim is that the study is poor-quality research funded to advance a viewpoint. Loki says that the second article is {{tq|anti-trans activists whining about a study that came to a conclusion they don't like}}, but the people quoted in the article are a doctor + British olympians + the chair of Sex Matters, who all raise serious issues with the study such as a small effect size and the difference in athleticism between the two populations. This is literally what ] tells us to do. {{tq|Using small-scale, single studies makes for weak evidence, and allows for cherry picking of data. Studies cited or mentioned in Misplaced Pages should be put in context by using high-quality secondary sources rather than by using the primary sources.}}
	:Please be more specific on what parts of the articles that are inaccurate. At best, Loki has shown that The Telegraph is biased in favour of a gender-critical perspective. Future comments should be more specific because otherwise they are unfalsifiable generalities <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 04:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::P.S. I'll add on, that in your linked page you acknowledge that your problem with Thoughtful Therapists isn't that it's being inaccurately described, but that The Telegraph uses biased phrasing in favour of it. {{tq|They are a group of therapists with an agenda, quite similar to Thoughtful Therapists, but the Telegraph describes TACTT as "trans activists" when it has consistently described TT as "a group of therapists concerned with/about X".}}
	:: <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 05:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::I mean, it can be and is both. ] (]) 15:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::{{tq2|Reem Alsalem, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, said in an official position paper from the UN that Unless Loki proposes to say that the United Nations is also unreliable on interpreting its own treaties, the claim that "trans lesbians are lesbians" does, in fact, contravene CEDAW.}}
	::It should be noted that this position paper states the following on it's last page:
	::{{tq2|The Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls, as a Special Procedures mandate of the United Nations Human Rights Council, serves in her individual capacity independent from any government or organization.}}
	::See also ].] (]) 13:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Also, since I wrote this already, here's and . ] (]) 21:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::@] I think that this response, despite being long, doesn't have a lot of substance. A couple of quick points:
	::First, the ] isn't necessarily about litter boxes specifically but any accommodation. A teacher defending an animal identity and punishing other students for questioning it certainly is an accommodation and the Telegraph repeatedly made this claim in those articles. And regardless of whether it was an example of the hoax, the fact of the matter is that it is definitely and unambiguously false, and the Telegraph repeated it over and over again and never retracted or corrected it.
	::Second, I specifically do not think that quoting anti-trans activist groups makes the Telegraph unreliable per se. What I'm objecting to is hiding the nature of those anti-trans activist groups, and also quoting them repeatedly ''as experts'', and usually without any reference to pro-trans activist groups at all.
	::Third, I agree that the way they described James Esses is not, technically, false. But it's clearly misleading because it makes it seem that he is a therapist and Thoughtful Therapists is a reliable professional organization when neither is true: he got kicked out of his program for bigotry of the sort that he is being quoted to repeat, and Thoughtful Therapists is an anti-trans activist group which clearly does not require you to be any sort of psychotherapy professional to be a member given that James Esses is a member. Similarly the way they describe Sex Matters as a "woman's rights group" is arguably not false but clearly misleading. It would be like describing ] as "a well-known doctor": not technically false but clearly misleading.
	::Fourth, as Flounder fillet said that's Reem Alsalem's own personal opinion and is honestly not directly related here anyway. The claim being made here is ridiculous no matter what Reem Alsalem thinks. The UN cannot violate international law with a tweet.
	::Fifth, see ] for an exhaustive list of sources on the matter of trans women being women. TL;DR no matter how much you think it's gender ideology or whatever, saying that trans women are men is very much not in keeping with reliable sources. I think your close interpretation of these sources to deny that they are calling trans women men or trans men women is pretty clearly untrue. As briefly as I can manage: in the first article it's the headline and the first sentence among other times, second article calls the transmasculine subject of the article a girl repeatedly, the fourth article calls people binding their breasts "girls". The third article you concede but say is opinion is marked in the URL as news, and not marked as opinion in any way. So it's either news, or the Telegraph is mixing opinion and news, which would make it unreliable generally and not just for trans issues. Being from a writer that does not usually write for the Telegraph does not make something opinion.
	::Sixth, for my third point you're trying to make us focus on the trees and ignore the forest. (Honestly, I think that's the whole reply, but especially on this point.) Yeah if you ignore that the NHS is officially saying a medical statement you can make it look dubious. You can also make a whole study look dubious if you quote one doctor and a bunch of non-experts. Here at Misplaced Pages, we wouldn't say that a single doctor's professional opinion is even ] but for the Telegraph it's apparently better than a study. ] (]) 16:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::The claim that the ] isn't literally about litter boxes is both untrue and irrelevant to the point, which is that The Telegraph did their journalist due diligence. They had a recording where a) the teacher said a student identified as a cat, and b) the school didn't deny that in their initial statement. Only a week later did the school deny the story after intense media pressure, ''but no one other than the school ever denied a student ID'd as a cat''. If your claim is ] or ], show why the fact-checking of the source was deficient, because '''even reliable sources are allowed to make mistakes,''' and the most evidence you have the Telegraph made a mistake is the school's denial after the article came out.
	:::On your 2nd and 3rd points, the purpose of designating a source as unreliable is to prevent using it in articles. Citing a reliable source for what it implies (and does not directly support) can already be challenged and removed from articles per ]. Since you acknowledge that the false claims you've drawn from the Telegraph are only misleading implications, designating the Telegraph as ] or ] is redundant as those claims already cannot be cited. Please give ''directly supported'' claims from The Telegraph that are false and could be cited under our reliability policies if the source was declared ].
	:::On your 4th point we will have to agree to disagree over whether ] ] is a ] perspective on the ], since you acknowledge she agrees with the claims ] made against the tweet.
	:::On your 5th point, I've explained how articles 1, 2, and 4 are saying that the definition of "trans women" is too wide, not that "trans women =/= women". I'm not going to go in circles on whether taking the position "trans women are women" is a good litmus test to apply to reliable sources, we've both written our views. Article 3 is either a single example of an opinion miscategorized as a news piece (which I believe happened) or it's a regular news article and the only factual error you've pointed out is it saying trans women aren't women.
	:::Your sixth point doesn't explain how the Telegraph was wrong in saying the Motilium patient leaflet contradicts the NHS guidance nor does it address why the Telegraph was wrong in saying that the IOC study had a small sample size and a discrepancy in fitness between the trans athletes and the cis athletes. If the Telegraph isn't wrong, why does quoting these views make the Telegraph unreliable? <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 22:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', although I'm open to Option 2. So far, I don't think any of the arguments made stand up to ]'s rebuttal statement. Looking forward to seeing a counter-rebuttal. ] (]) 04:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' I'm uncomfortable sidelining a source based on the lexical analysis of editors as to whether they are or are not accurate in the absence of third-party RS saying they are or are not accurate. Content analysis, as I've previously noted, does not involve pulling examples out of a hat. It's a methodical research process that requires (as a best practice, in case of newspapers) the assessment of two constructed weeks of content for every six months analyzed. That has not occurred here. In the absence of editors showing their OR as to the Telegraph's reliability meets generally accepted research standards, I'd need clear, compelling, and significant evidence from RS. And I'm not seeing that. ] (]) 05:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' There is clearly no presence of a litter box hoax in the linked articles. The Telegraph made a largely accurate report of that situation. The rest of the complaint is simply a protest about the political positions of the Telegraph. Sources have political positions, we can only reject them when they publish false content. The milk thing, again, they don't say anything false, and I am deeply uncomfortable with[REDACTED] mandating holding a political position that transmen are men and transwomen are women as a barrier for RS. Obviously, the Telegraph has a strong bias when it discusses trans topics, and that is something we should be aware of, just as we should when we read something from the ]. ] (]) 06:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1.''' See my reply above disputing many of the arguments made for lowering reliability. A good argument has been made for bias, but a much weaker argument has been made for reliability concerns. ] (]) 08:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1.''' Biased source for this topic, but clearly reliable (as demonstrated by Chess above). ] (]) 08:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''': In summary, practically of Loki’s third-party sources of the Telegraph amounts to bias, not of unreliability. If sources take a position of X or Y on certain controversial areas, not is not indicative of reliability in those areas. I believe the only instances of true factually errors came from the two IPSO complaints. However, this “evidence” undermines the OP’s argument that the Telegraph is unreliable since the IPSO noted how quickly and responsibly the Telegraph fixed their errors. I brought up how the Telegraph is a noted newspaper of record. This is not to say newspapers can’t make mistakes. Rather, it signifies that for some time—over 150 years in this case—the newspaper has been a beacon of peak journalistic performance. It would take mountains of solid evidence to overturn the Telegraph’s status of a newspaper of record. Such evidence has not been presented. This is a clear slippery-slope RfC that has the potential to overturn many of our other most ironclad RSs—such as the Times and the Economist—into sources equivalent to tabloid media. What a shame that would be. ] (]) 08:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''': Strong evidence has been presented that Telegraph is not ''generally'' reliable on this topic, with its extreme bias leading it to report in misleading way. But I do not yet see enough evidence to consider it ''generally'' unreliable on this topic. My view is that this is a contentious topic where we should only use the very best of sources and/or triangulate reliable but biased sources, and so the presumption should be against using the Telegraph anyway, so I'd be comfortable with option 3, but I think we need a stronger evidence base from other reliable sources before designating it generally unreliable, let alone deprecating it. ] (]) 11:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. I'm disappointed to see the opening vote on this RfC repeat several points that were rebutted in the RFCBEFORE discussion. {{ping|Chess}} has done a good job of addressing them. Many of the points seem to fundamentally conflate ''bias'' and ''reliability''. We are told {{tq|there is plenty of secondary coverage of the Telegraph's unreliability as well}}, citing several sources, but of those that I could access, they did not actually support a judgement of unreliability (nor are they experts in what Misplaced Pages considers reliability to mean). Rather, they explain that The Telegraph advances a strong POV. I think it's possible to become so embedded in a POV that one comes to view that POV as pure objective truth, and the anti-POV therefore starts to look objectively false. The starkest example of this misunderstanding is in the accusation that The Telegraph has {{tq|alleged directly that trans women are men}}. That is not a statement of objective fact (and neither is its inverse) about which a source can be ''unreliable''. There are multiple POVs available in this topic area, and just because The Telegraph battles hard for one of them doesn't make its statements automatically ''false''. It is entirely possible to use The Telegraph as a source for facts while ignoring its opinions, and those facts are ''generally'' reliable. Generally doesn't mean always. I'm not aware of any actual issues with the use of The Telegraph on Misplaced Pages. We seem to have had no problem reading past its bias and locating encyclopedic information. Nobody has tried to use it to source an article about identifying as a cat. In the absence of solving a real problem, I am concerned that moves towards downgrading this source will be used to solve something very different: the problem of disfavoured POVs existing. ] (]) 14:29, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I think something you say here is the key to all the recent RfC's on news sources and trans issues. {{tq|I think it's possible to become so embedded in a POV that one comes to view that POV as pure objective truth, and the anti-POV therefore starts to look objectively false.}}--] (]) 14:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''': In the discussion earlier I was leaning towards “additional considerations” and I'm not personally a fan of the Telegraph’s spin so I wouldn't lose sleep over Option 2, but I have found the comments about the difference between bias and unreliability persuasive.
			:'''Deprecate'''. The Philippines has plenty of ] to choose from. If you are scraping the bottom of the barrel to find refs for something or someone and have to use this, I'd say consider against and don't add it to the article. ] (]) 13:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	: Most of the provided evidence hinges on a misrepresentation of the "cat" story. The Telegraph categorically did not promote {{tq| the litter boxes in schools hoax about a British school every day for a week}}. The only Telegraph story offered that actually mentions litter trays points out it is a myth:
			* '''Comment''': For better understanding and context, especially for editors unfamiliar of this topic's origin:
			::LionhearTV is a blog site, as described on its "About Me" page, established in 2008 and functioning primarily as a celebrity and entertainment blog. The site is operated by eMVP Digital, which also manages similar blog sites, such as and .
			::In addition to these blogs, LionhearTV organizes the , which recognize achievements in the entertainment industry. This accolade has been acknowledged by major industry players, including ] and ]. Like other awards, the RAWR Awards present physical trophies to honorees.
			::A discussion about LionhearTV’s reliability as a source took place on the ] talk page in September 2024 (see ]). The issue was subsequently raised on the Tambayan Philippines talk page (]) and the ] (]). However, these discussions did not yield a constructive consensus on whether LionhearTV can be considered a reliable source. The discussion at Tambayan deviated into a debate about ], which was unrelated to the original subject. Meanwhile, the sole respondent at the RSN inquiry commented, {{tq|It may come down to how it's used, it maybe unreliable for contentious statement or comments about living people, but reliable for basic details.|quotes=yes}}
			::At this moment, LionhearTV is listed as '''unreliable''' on ] as result of the no consensus discussion at RSN.
			:<span style="border-radius:7px;background:#dc143c;padding:4px 6px 4px 6px;color:white;">]</span> (]) 13:57, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Lionheartv is one person operation. How can there be editorial discretion on that case? ] (]) 14:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I'm more surprised on how a single person actively manages three blog sites and one accolade, with the accolade even giving out physical trophies to its winners. Like, how is he/she funding and doing all of these? <span style="border-radius:7px;background:#dc143c;padding:4px 6px 4px 6px;color:white;">]</span> (]) 14:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It's immaterial on how we determine ]. What could be very important that other ] missed out on that only this blog carries? If it's only this blog that carries articles about something, it's not very important. This blog is the very definition of ]. I'm surprised we're having this conversation. A blacklist is needed. ] (]) 02:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Option 3'''. There's something about its reporting and organizational structure that is off compared to the regular newspapers. ] (]) 14:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Though, I find it strange and concerning that reputable sources copypasted some of LionhearTV's articles:
			::# LionhearTV: https://www.lionheartv.net/2024/12/2024-spotify-wrapped-radar-artists-hev-abi-bini-lead-the-philippine-charts/ (December 8, 2024)<br/>Sunstar: https://www.sunstar.com.ph/davao/2024-spotify-wrapped-radar-artists-hev-abi-bini-lead-the-philippine-charts (December 10, 2024)
			::# LionhearTV: https://www.lionheartv.net/2025/01/dylan-menor-signs-with-universal-records/ (January 11, 2025)<br/>Manila Republic: https://www.manilarepublic.com/dylan-menor-signs-with-universal-records/ (January 14, 2025)
			::These are two instances I found so far where other sources copypasted from LionhearTV. But I saw other instances where LionhearTV is the one who copypasted from other sources, such examples include:
			::# LionhearTV: https://www.lionheartv.net/2024/12/moira-dela-torre-brings-her-new-album-im-okay-to-cinemas/ (December 30, 2024)<br/>Original: https://www.abs-cbn.com/entertainment/showbiz/music/2024/12/29/moira-dela-torre-brings-her-new-album-i-m-okay-to-cinemas-0948 (December 29, 2024)
			::# LionhearTV: https://www.lionheartv.net/2024/06/bini-set-to-showcase-sneak-preview-of-their-new-single-cherry-on-top-in-mobile-game/ (June 27, 2024) <br/>Original: https://www.abs-cbn.com/starmagic/articles-news/bini-set-to-showcase-sneak-preview-of-their-new-single-cherry-on-top-in-mobile-game-22637 (June 24, 2024)
			::I honestly don't know about these editors, they just copying each other's works. Probably cases of ]. <span style="border-radius:7px;background:#dc143c;padding:4px 6px 4px 6px;color:white;">]</span> (]) 16:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Option 3''' - As much as possible, LionhearTV and its sibling sites under the eMVP Digital should not be used as sources when more reliable outlets have coverage for a certain event, show, actor and so on. Even if a certain news item is exclusive to or first published in a eMVP Digital site, other journalists will eventually publish similar reports in their respective platforms (refer to some examples posted by AstrooKai). -] @ 15:03, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::What I fear in these kinds of low quality sources is that people will find something very specific about someone, e.g. "This person was seen in a separate engagement vs. the others in their group," and this low quality source is the only source that carried this fact, and since this it is not blacklisted, this does get in as a source, and most of the time, that's all that's needed. We don't need articles on showbiz personalities tracking their every movement as if it's important. Blacklist this. ] (]) 01:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{hat|Discussion about moving RFC to RSN}}
			:::@], @], @], if you don't mind we can move this discussion to ] to get more opinions and votes on other experienced editors. ] ] 16:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::'''Support'''. ] (]) 16:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::'''Support'''. Though, I suggest finishing or closing this discussion so that we don't have two running discussions that tackles the same thing. If we want to construct a consensus, we better do it in one place. Alternatively, we first seek consensus from the local level first (by finishing this discussion) before moving one level up (the RSN). <span style="border-radius:7px;background:#dc143c;padding:4px 6px 4px 6px;color:white;">]</span> (]) 16:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
			*'''Option 3'''It's a blog. That means ] applies. This means it might be contextually reliable for ] or under ] (with the usual condition that SPSEXPERT prohibits any use of SPS for BLPs) and so I don't see any pressing need for deprecation, but this is very clearly a source that is not generally one we should use. ] (]) 15:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:FWIW, the person behind this blog is not a subject matter expert. Like, we don't even know who this is. (One subject matter expert in Philippine showbusiness that I know of that runs a similar blog is , and I event won't even use the blind items as sources there lol) As explained above, once this gets to be used as a source, it won't be challenged and people just accept it as is. This is a low quality source that has to be blacklisted. ] (]) 01:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yeah that's fine. I was just saying that, in general, those are the only two avenues to use someone's blog. ] (]) 20:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Option 4''' Their reportings are obviously flawed and a per example above copypasting is a not a good look nor a good indication for "reliability" and it is often used in BLP, yikes. '''''Warm Regards''''', ] (]) (]) 12:01, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Hatebase.org ==
	: {{tq2| Some of them, such as tales of schools providing litter trays to cater for children identifying as cats, have turned out to be hoaxes, which has made it all too easy to assume that the problem is either a myth or is wildly exaggerated. }}
			Is a reliable source? ] (]) 19:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	: The only aspect of the story that actually seems in any doubt is as to whether there actually was a child in the school who did identify as a cat, or whether this was a hypothetical thrown up in the classroom discussion, and it was ambiguous and open to interpretation based on the recorded conversation - and subsequently denied by the school. Everything else is AFAICT pretty factually reported, albeit biased, and audio of the incident was widely available so anyone can confirm this. The "cat-identification" portion is almost irrelevant in the context of the actual discussion, in which a teacher tells a class of students that there are three human sexes, and labels a child despicable for disagreeing as well as suggesting they should leave the school. These are reported accurately, eg.:
			:Is there an ] for this? And/Or some context for the use case? ] (]) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	: {{tq2| She added that "there is actually three biological sexes because you can be born with male and female body parts or hormones" }}
			::I have checked and I can't find any previous discussion, hence why I opened this one. There is ] about the site. I intend to use it to expand list of slurs articles. ] (]) 20:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::<small>I’m not making a statement on the source, as I’m not familiar with it .</small>Then this doesn’t require an RfC, just a normal source discussion, if you’re concerned about reliability. Do you mind removing the descriptor from the title? And best of luck! :) ] (]) 20:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Okay, I just added it because I saw some of the other discussions had it. I am removing it from the title. ] (]) 20:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That happens, don’t worry about it! Thank you! ] (]) 20:39, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:used in 4[REDACTED] articles, seems highly premature. use best judgement until it can't be resolved in an article's talk page between editors, and needs wider[REDACTED] community feedback. ] (]) 20:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I wish this were otherwise because it looks like a really interesting website but it uses user-generated content. Which is a problem from an RS perspective. ] (]) 20:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::None of the uses are for anything other than Hatebase itself, and as the site was been retired since 2022 it's unlikely it will see much more use ('retired' as it's been closed to editing, all user data deleted, and may go offline at any point, so not quite closed but very close). As most of the supporting data is gone, and what there was was user generated, I don't think it could be used as an RS. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 00:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== LaserDisc Database? ==
	: {{tq2| The teacher said that "if you don’t like it you need to go to a different school", adding: "I’m reporting you to , you need to have a proper educational conversation about equality, diversity and inclusion because I’m not having that expressed in my lesson."}}
			I'm working on adding citations to ]. I'm looking for a source that supports the sentence "Image Entertainment released another LaserDisc" . I've found the laserdisc in question on LaserDisc Database . Can I use it as a source? The "register now" box states that users can "submit" new Laserdiscs, which implies some editorial oversight compared to other websites with user-generated material (although it looks like there ). My other options are or interlibrary loaning the original Laserdisc. ] (]) 19:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	: All of this is true and verifiable and acknowledged by the school:
			:The bottom of the page has {{tq|"Disclaimer: The data on this webstite is crowd-sourced..."}} and from the page you linked it's unclear what amount of checking is done before any submitted updates happen. Worldcat is the better option. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 21:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	: {{tq2| The school, which does not dispute that the incident happened, said it was committed to inclusive education, but would be "reviewing our processes to ensure such events do not take place in the future". }}
			::oops, I missed that. Thank you for the advice. I'll use WorldCat if I can't find a news article. ] (]) 22:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Usage of AirPlay Direct for music articles ==
	: So again - the only aspect of the story that is exaggerated is that there was an actual child literally identifying as a cat in that class, which does not seem to be true, but is also - despite the headlines - a minor aspect of the story and nothing to do with the "litter box" hoax at all. Dismissing it as such serves to obscure than the vast majority of the story - as reported elsewhere - was nothing to do with the cat-identification and actually to do with poor handling of a sensitive subject, and it was this handling which prompted a snap inspection. The fact that virtually to the exclusion of the entire rest of the story, and that politicians and pundits made much hay with that, is a universal failure and merely representative of ] to my mind. Additionally, the "rebuttal" is misrepresented - as the Guardian makes clear, the Ofsted inspection did not look at this specific incident, and since the school has already conceded it happened and took action, saying this is "proven false" is, frankly, a misrepresentation. The inspection found that, whatever the failures in this case, they were not systemic.
			Is reliable for use in articles about music (such as songs, albums, artists, etc.) ] (]) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	: Some comments about the other points.
			:Per their about page they are not a normal news source, but a promotional platform. Their articles, etc are likely based on press releases and information from the subject of the article. So they might be reliable as a ] source within the limits of ]. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:* We decide whether a group is "anti-trans" based on how reliable sources refer to them. Deciding a priori that a group is “anti-trans” and that any source that does not denigrate them as such is “unreliable” is begging the question, and POV. Not only that, this sort of reasoning will act like a ratchet, steadily removing all sources except those that adhere to a preconceived POV. This is a rare, non-fallacious ]. Sex Matters are a registered charity, and if reliable sources refer to them as “women’s rights group” then that is how Misplaced Pages should refer to them, or at the most present different opinionated labels in an attempt to balance a divisive subject. Deciding the Telegraph is factually unreliable for not strongly espousing a particular subjective POV is to elevate one specific POV to the level of fact, and a blanket decision at the source reliability level on that basis will inevitably entrench that POV across the entirety of Misplaced Pages, and lend weight to further RFCs argued on the same grounds. This is a concerning move indeed.
			== Global Defense Corp ==
	:* Irrespective of whether that makes a source unreliable, the complaints about calling trans women "men" don't seem to be supported by the supplied links.
			Global Defense Corp should be deprecated as it is a incredibly unreliable source which frequently fabricates information they are incredibly biassed against Russian technology to such an extent as to lose all objectivity here I will share just a small snippet of the blatantly false information they have spread over the years
	:* On the breastfeeding story - where is a factual error here? And the opener strongly overstates the status of “{{tq|a medical fact that the medical community has come to a consensus on}}” in criticising The Telegraph:
			1. they've claimed that Azerbaijan using either an Israeli or Turkish drone was able to destroy a Armenian nebo-m radar which is impressive considering Armenia doesn't even have that radar or has at any point Displayed any interest in buying that radar there evidence for this is a footage of Azerbaijan destroying a p-18 radar and them claiming it's the nebo-m and they didn't just claim this once they've claimed it at least twice in two different articles.
	:: The letter leaked to Policy Exchange is , and no-one disputes its veracity. The letter responds to questions raised over the use of the phrase “human milk”, which they defend as intended to be non-gender biased, as part of their policy on “Perinatal Care for Trans and Non-Binary People”. Then in a specific response to a question which uses the unpleasant phrase “male secretions” they make the claim that induced lactation produces milk “comparable to that produced following the birth of a baby”. They do not outright say this specifically applies to trans women, but this is implied by the five citations. The first four relate solely to lactation induction in females, where such a claim may well be true (though one is a very limited two-person pilot study, and another is a “La Leche League” info page that just references the same citations).
			2. in this article you can see a picture of the SU57’s internal weapons bays but what they don't tell you is that this picture is CGI at no point do they communicate this in fact they claim it's from the Sukhoi design Bureau even though it's not.
	:: However the fifth citation makes it clear they are applying the same language to trans women. . That is, a trans woman, with a partner who had given birth and was at that time breastfeeding - and initially expressing milk too. The participant would deliver samples they themselves had allegedly produced at home - with no supervision or observation - for testing, and the results were limited.
			3. in this article they talk about how the S 400 range decreases against objects at low altitudes which is true but fail to explain that this is true for all radar guided Sam systems thanks to an effect known as radar horizon where objects at low altitudes are able to hide behind the curvature of the earth and therefore can only be detected at certain distances but not only do they not explain this to the reader creating a false impression that this is an issue unique to the S 400 but they even claimed that Turkey accused Russia of fraud because of this. which is weird for several reasons one Russia has at no point claim that the S400 range does not decrease with altitude but also because it implies Turkey believed the S 400 could defy the laws of physics they also have no source of this claim and no other articles on the Internet claim this.
	:: {{tq2| Four samples of expressed human milk were frozen and supplied for analysis. Each 40-ml sample was obtained from full breast pumpings pooled over a 24-hr period, collected approximately once each month, starting 129 days after initiation of domperidone and 56 days after initiation of pumping. }}
			4. In this article they claimed SU57 lacks sensor fusion which it doesn't and then just ignore that low probability of intercept radar is a thing .
	:: {{tq2| the quantity of expressed milk was low in comparison to what would be needed to sustain infant growth independently}}
			5. in this article they berate the S 400 for not intercepting Israeli F35’s in Syria but forgot to mention that Russia and Israel were long believed to have an agreement in the Syrian civil war to not engaged each other.
	:: {{tq2| Nutritionally, our participant’s milk was quite robust with higher values for all macronutrients and average calories over 20 kcals per 30 ml. Other important characteristics of human milk, including micronutrients and bioactive factors, were not assessed. }}
			There bias is also evident in just in the words that they say frequently attacking Russian equipment with ad hominems such as cooling the S 400 ,another lame duck missile system, or starting there articles with stupid Russians or Russian equipment exposed. they also lack of any transparency no one knows who owns the website none of the articles say the names of the people that wrote them making the website Even more suspicious but despite all of this they are still frequently cited all the time on Misplaced Pages.
	:: So based on a totally uncontrolled and unverified sample size of one, obtained under an honour system with no source verification, with inadequate volumes and incomplete nutritional testing, it is wishful thinking to consider that a “medical fact”. This is an atrocious standard of evidence, and an NHS Trust shoehorning this in as part of a response to a policy query is, frankly, bizarre.
			Sources
			1.https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/02/01/turkey-exposed-fatal-flaws-in-russian-made-s-400-surface-to-air-missile/
			2. https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/07/11/rostec-nebo-m-radar-is-it-a-scam-or-propaganda/
	:: What is however misleading in The Telegraph's reporting is that they segue from talking about induced lactation in trans women to this claim:
			3. https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/12/28/russian-su-57-will-carry-four-missiles-in-the-internal-weapons-bay/
	:: {{tq2| It also references a 2022 study that found “milk testosterone concentrations” were under 1 per cent with “no observable side effects” in the babies. }}
			4. Radar Horizon. (n.d.). www.ssreng.com. Retrieved January 6, 2025, from https://www.ssreng.com/pdf/Radar_Horizon.pdf
	:: What they don't make clear in the source is this was referring to a '''trans man'''. Now, they don't outright say anything false, but arguably by omission let an ill-informed reader assume they're still talking about trans women, so I think this is marginal. But an obfuscated claim like this does not come close to making them "generally unreliable", rather exactly the sort of biased elision that editors need to be wary of with any biased source.
			5. Butowski 2021, pp. 78–82
	:: The objection here seems yet again that the Telegraph reported the story at all, not that it was wrong or in any significant way unreliable. And even if it were, when would we cite this article?
			6. https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/01/24/sukhoi-su-57s-x-band-n036-byelka-and-n036l-1-01-l-band-radars-are-not-what-you-think/
	: I have no doubt that The Telegraph have their own interest in focusing on and generating such inflammatory stories - but they aren't notably unreliable more than any other biased source IMO. They are biased in what stories they choose to report on and how they choose to present them and what they choose to leave out, but virtually none of what's been presented here amounts to false information. That this cherry-picked handful of coverage spanning years is supposedly the strongest evidence, I find highly unpersuasive. ] (]) 15:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:• '''Option 3.''' The Telegraph has gone far beyond bias and into unreliability, from the above RFCbefore they advocate for conversion therapy. From we have the quote "A school teacher told a pupil she was “despicable” after she refused to accept that her classmate identifies as a cat." from which it is clear that the telegraph says someone at the school identifies as a cat. From we have constant misgendering of a child (honestly I can't remember an article where they respect the gender of a trans child) and the quote "citing the most comprehensive study of the impact of binders to date, which found that more than 97 per cent of adults who use them suffer health problems as a result." which seems to be mentioning where the most 5 reported health problems were backpain (53.8%), overheating (53.5%), chest pain (48.8%), shortness of breath(46.6%) and itchiness (44.9%). I think one could get similar health problems (in terms of severity) from people who consistently wear high heals and possibly at a higher frequency. Another point people seem to be bringing up is that it is normal (and best practice) for newspapers to bring activists or campaigners from both sides on any issue, whilst true the telegraph doesn't do this. They rarely balance with a campaigner or activist from stonewall or mermaids or any number of local groups, somehow they always manage to bring in an activist from Safe Sex Matter, Thoughtful Therapists, Safe Schools alliance, Protect and Teach and more. They also promote the myth that most children with gender dysphoria will desist and are in fact gay in some kind (one example) a myth based on studies that assume any gender nonconformity is the same as gender dysphoria and based on outdated definitions. ] (]) 16:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC) <small>— ] (]&#32;• ]) has made ] outside this topic. </small>
			7. https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2019/09/22/over-hyped-s-400-and-s-300-surface-to-air-missile-failed-to-detect-f-35i-adir/
	*'''Option 3'''. The deciding factor for me is that The Telegraph has presented fringe voices as authoritative, and at times promoted pseudoscience. That pushes it from being biased towards being unreliable. ] (]) 18:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			8. When Israel bombs Syria, Russia turns a blind eye. (2022, January 3). thearabweekly.com. Retrieved January 22, 2025, from
	*'''Option 1''' Since my preferred answer '''"Do not make such over-generalizations"''' It should be case by case, and in the context of the text which it is being used to support. is not on the list. And in majority of those cases, the answer is "yes". <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 18:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			https://thearabweekly.com/when-israel-bombs-syria-russia-turns-blind-eye ] (]) 15:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Do we use them? ] (]) 15:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' is the ''Telegraph''s leader column '''today'''. Meanwhile, the ''Telegraph''s columnists include the notorious "gender-critical" activist ] . Look at that page and tell me "this is a reliable source". Oh and then there's and and and (which appears to be false) and this is all in the last few weeks. Seriously, if you're voting "1" here, you're not looking hard enough. ] 18:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::{{yo|Black Kite}} Did you intend to delete {{u|Chess}}’s comment of 19:33? ] (]) 19:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)		::The S 400 Misplaced Pages page has 20 citations from them and the su 57 Misplaced Pages page has four. ] (]) 15:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I agree that they're generally unreliable but I'm not so sure I'd chalk it up to bias rather than incompetence. They seem to be suggesting that the news they publish is a sideline to their core business of international security consulting... But they're spamming the cheapest ads on the internet alongside that content suggests that this is their primary income. To me it looks like a vanity site, I also suspect they are ripping stories off or using generative AI. ] (]) 17:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I'm not being funny, but all of those are just opinions you disagree with, none of it is factually wrong. Your vote here is so far from our policies, I'm not sure if it should even be counted by the closer.] (]) 18:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			::I will agree with you that they are incompetent But I think you can be incompetent and bias, some mistakes they've made such as having a image of the SU57 that is CGI on the web page and claiming it was a picture taken by Sukhoi I could see that being a result of incompetence but stuff like claiming Turkey accused Russia of Fraud over the S 400 because its range decreased against objects at lower altitude I have a harder time believing is just incompetence specially since the mistakes that they made seemed to always understate Russian equipment’s capabilities I have never been able to see and correct me if I'm wrong any incidents where they have overstated a piece of Russian equipment’s capabilities and yet I have seen dozens of mistakes in the opposite direction which suggests to me it is not random error. but quite frankly if their biassed or not I think is irrelevant even if we somehow conclude that they do have a neutral point of view there is still no way they could be considered a reliable source by Misplaced Pages standards as they do not meet the other criteria mainly the one which is in quote ‘Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy’ there is no universe where they pass that one and as a result they cannot be considered a reliable source something which you agree with this alone should be enough to get the website Deprecated irrespective of if their bias or not. ] (]) 20:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: "None of it is factually wrong". Even if you were correct, which you aren't, do you think it shows that the newspaper can be trusted on the topic? It clearly can't. ] 19:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::I think the one thing that seems to be universally agreed on is that this is not a reliable source. ] (]) 20:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Well thats the rub isnt it. Our sourcing policies do not require us as editors to personally trust the sources, only that they fulfil the criteria for reliability we have set. I distrust the Telegraph because its a mouthpiece for Tory scumbags, but thats not actually against any of our policies. If only it were. Per Chess, pretty much all the rest of the evidence to me shows bias, but not unreliability (as we have defined it), so I am going to have to regretfully go with option 1. ] (]) 19:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::If you think there is factual inaccuracy, could you say what it is? Whether I like what it writes (and I usually don't) doesn't make any odds at all.--] (]) 20:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)		:::I would agree, that regardless of whether it's bias or incompetence, it all adds up to unreliability. Cheers. ] (]) 23:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::That misrepresents the findings of the ], on top of whatever else is going on there. ] (]) 18:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::] already recommends against using normally reliable news sources to explain complicated medical studies; what does designating The Telegraph as unreliable add here? Even so, I dispute that The Telegraph is inaccurate. The Telegraph's article says {{tq|Dr Hilary Cass warned of potential risks of social transition – when names and pronouns are changed – saying it could push children down a potentially harmful medical pathway when issues could be resolved in other ways.}}
	:::Page 32, paragraph 78 of the Cass Review itself says: {{tq|Therefore, sex of rearing seems to have some influence on eventual gender outcome, and it is possible that social transition in childhood may change the trajectory of gender identity development for children with early gender incongruence.}}
	:::The Cass Review also says on page 164 that {{tq|Clinical involvement in the decision-making process should include advising on the risks and benefits of social transition as a planned intervention, referencing best available evidence. This is not a role that can be taken by staff without appropriate clinical training.}}
	:::It's not a misrepresentation of the Cass Review to say socially transitioning could cause feelings of gender incongruence, and there should be clinical involvement in the decision-making process instead of a child unilaterally deciding to socially transition without any advice. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 19:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::{{tq2|The SNP government has kept controversial guidance, which calls on teachers to “be affirming” to children who say they are trans and endorses “social transition”, in place despite the recent findings of the Cass review.}}
	::::Implies a "harder" stance than what was actually stated. This is not the first time, nor the most severe such incident. See and https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/10/under-25s-trans-care-must-be-slower-says-cass-report/ (visible URL intentional), where the Telegraph states that the report recommends some sort of restrictions on GAC for under-25s and not just for minors. This is . Additionally, Telegraph coverage of the Cass Review caused problems at the ] article, at the talk page of which the idea for this RfC started.<ref>]</ref> ] (]) 20:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	{{reflist-talk}}
	:::::{{tq|Implies a "harder" stance than what was actually stated.}} What is the stance that is being implied? As I have said, my understanding of the stance of the Cass Review is that it neither endorses nor rejects social transitioning, and the review treats social transitioning as an active intervention that doesn't have much evidence for or against it. The recommendation is ''not'' to affirm children that their decision is correct, but have a professional advising them on the risks and benefits of transitioning. Clearly you disagree, but you refuse to say how.
	:::::'''If you refuse to say what you believe what the findings of the Cass Review are, it's impossible for other editors to engage with your point and weigh it.'''
	:::::Deciding to criticize two unrelated articles doesn't affect the reliability of the first article, it just confuses the discussion.
	:::::But to address your point anyways, ] says that headlines aren't reliable, so the "visible URL" containing the headline isn't citable in articles anyways (this is the only specific part of the article you bothered to say is unreliable). Additionally, those two articles were published the day before the official release of the report and the day of the report being released respectively. '''] says that otherwise reliable sources can have serious inaccuracies because of the nature of breaking news''', ''especially'' when summarizing a newly-released scientific publication. If you look into what the Cass Review says, on page 224, it says that 17 year olds are getting aged out of their childhood transgender care providers and that {{tq|a follow-through service continuing up to age 25 would remove the need for transition at this vulnerable time and benefit both this younger population and the adult population}}. The creators of the Cass Review later had to clarify that the word "transition" in this context meant transfer, not gender transition.
	:::::That's the only other inaccuracy I could guess you were referring to; and it did recommend that under 25s not be subject to sudden changes in their care. This fits with the word "]" which can refer to taking a longer time to complete an action (in this case the action being a transition to adult services).
	:::::A source having minor errors in an ambiguous situation during a breaking news story doesn't make it unreliable; '''it's already possible to exclude those two articles under ] without designating the Telegraph as unreliable.''' <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 21:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::For the sake of not looking insane, I would like to state for the record that I agree with your understanding of the stance taken by the Cass Review final report. Anyways, with the two articles not being relevant to this discussion due to ], this discussion about a nitpick is now meaningless and I concede and drop my point for the sake of not making this RfC swell faster than it needs to. ] (]) 23:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::In your last 4 links, do you plan on including a quote or any specific context about ''what'' is false about those stories? That would be useful in conjunction with reliable sources that describe the specific claims as being false.
	::Just dumping a bunch of links and asserting that it {{tq|appears to be false}} without any elaboration isn't a very meaningful contribution. You can't seriously say that {{tq|if you're voting "1" here, you're not looking hard enough}} when you haven't done enough research yourself to say with your own voice that a specific article in The Telegraph is false. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 19:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::: I'm merely pointing out that a newspaper, which under its ''own byline'' (let alone its choice of bigotry in its opinion columns) posts wildly biased material, is probably not the best one to trust on the topic. ] 19:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::So, you've conceded that your evidence does not show that The Telegraph publishes false information. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 19:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::: Don't put words in my mouth, please. There is evidence in ''this discussion'' that the DT posts misinformation on the topic. And if you think that a newspaper that posts stuff like Bindel's, or like on a regular basis (did you look at the link I provided?) can in ''any way'' be reliable on trans issues is simply delusional. Yes, the DT does - very occasionally - print more balanced articles on the subject, but it's very noticeable that they usually still come with an agenda. Judging a newspaper on its own material - and that's material printed under its own byline as well as by its motley collection of "columnists" is hardly a massive leap. ] 07:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::{{ec}}Thanks for collecting the links. You've got a stronger stomach than I have to be able to wade through that much bile. --] (]) 19:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''': Their reporting simply doesn't show the respect for facts and getting things right that is required. We've seen plenty of examples of them getting things very wrong; I don't think anyone's pointed to them getting things right, though. Like, it's easy to dismiss their coverage as opinion pieces, but if that's all they have, then they're only really sources for opinion anyway (]), which means they're generally unreliable for actual facts. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">''']''' <sup>(])</sup><sub>Has about 8.8% of all ].</sub></span> 18:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' is the sensible answer. I don't see how we can depreciate the whole paper at the moment, although it may come to that later depending on who ends up owning it. Option 2 is arguable but I fear that we would be forever arguing over the details of the "additional considerations" and it's just not worth it. Option 1 is ''entirely'' untenable. It is undisputable that they have published stories that were substantially untrue, where even casual enquiry would have revealed them to be untrue prior to publication. That is enough to make them unReliable. It doesn't matter whether those untrue stories were published knowingly in bad faith. I'm OK with them remaining Reliable on other topics provided that we broadly construe trans issues to include all the strange and disingenuous ways in which people talk about trans people without actually saying "trans people". So, for example, the ridiculous "litter box" bullshit hoax (I struggle to see ''any'' way that it could have been published in good faith unless the entire editorial team was kicked in the head by a horse!) would have to fall within our definition of "trans issues". We recognise that when people say "lizard people" or "global banking elites" they quite often mean Jews. Similarly, we need to recognise that when the Telegraph, and others, say "children who identify as animals", or whatever nonsense codephrase they come up with next, they are talking about trans people in an intentionally obfuscated way and that is fundamentally unReliable writing. --] (]) 19:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' Unfortunately based on the evidence here, I think the Telegraph is undoubtedly biased, but bias is explicitly not something that means unreliable. The Daily Mail had a long long history of factual inaccuracies (not to mention just making things up) before we got to the stage where we said it was an unreliable publication. We are not even close to that level of unreliability with the Telegraph. Who knows, there may be plenty of examples of the Telegraphs actual unreliability (as opposed to editorial bias) but I am not seeing them in the discussion or various links above. ] (]) 19:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' During the , which concluded last year, editors were told there was substantial evidence of problems with this source, but the supposed evidence for unreliability wasn't presented. Looking at the supposed evidence this time indicates that it still doesn't exist. From above... "even when the hoax was proven"; it wasn't... there was a later inspection leading to a report that, as ''The Guardian'' source states, "does not directly address the argument between the teacher and pupils, or the question of whether any pupils identify as animals". The ''PinkNews'' source quotes the same recording that ''The Telegraph'' used: "how can you identify as a cat when you’re a girl?" Further analysis of this isn't worth my time – it's a silly story, but not a "hoax". "James Esses is not and has never been a therapist"; the source doesn't say that he is. "Thoughtful Therapists is an anti-trans interest group"; the source describes it as "concerned with impact of gender ideology on young people", which is probably a different perspective on the same thing. Same with "Sex Matters". "the UN..."; I don't see what's factually inaccurate. I stopped there. As last time (and the frequency of the attempts is becoming tedious), there isn't evidence of unreliability for facts. Bias, certainly. And presenting different views, attributed, doesn't mean a source is unreliable. ] (]) 20:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			== Should we trust ] for statistics ==
	:'''Option 3.''' My biggest hesitation is the lack of third party reliable sources labelling the Telegraph as misleading on transgender coverage. I could not support option 4 without that. But it is plainly obvious by the examples provided that the Telegraph is incredibly biased on transgender coverage, and I would prefer basically any other news source when citing sources on topics. The Telegraph routinely flaunts basic journalistic practice, engages in bad faith, and hides context regularly. I don't want them used as a source for this topic. I do not find the arguments for option one convincing - The Telegraph being biased may not immediately mean a source is unreliable, but they regularly post hoaxes as facts. -- ] (]) 20:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''': Apart from the brief comment I'm unsure how users can acknowledge the clear bias in the Telegraph while voting for option 1 instead of 2, I'll briefly note the evidence I've presented in the RFCBEFORE:
	:* The Telegraph has been recognizably homophobic since the 70s, was protested even then based on that fact, and supported ].
	:* Chess's, ] comment, much like the Telegraph, somehow ignores the context that Thoughtful therapists (formerly the "Gender Exploratory Therapy Association") ''is a pro-conversion therapy group'' (see ]). Chess claims James Esses was fired for GC beliefs, he was fired because his employer asked him to stop publicly campaigning against bans on conversion therapy ''using their organization's name'' - because he holds the ] view that conversion therapy does not include ].
	:* Here is them running an entire article ] a transgender teenager and complaining that the school didn't misgender them because the parents asked them to. In that same article, they use a euphemism for conversion therapy and misrepresent medical information to claim it's a beneficial treatment.
	:* Here I presented multiple academic papers criticizing the Telegraph's bias, homophobia, and transphobia.
	:* Here I analyzed the Telegraph's reporting on James Esses of "Thoughtful Therapists" and showed that the ] covered it first ''with less bias and misrepresentation'' - unlike the Telegraph, the DailyMail 1) actually provided a definition of conversion therapy 2) noted that Esses tried to convince transgender children they weren't and 3) campaigned against bans on conversion therapy for trans kids
	:* Chess continues to insist that the Telegraph's reporting of the Cass Review was correct: I previously noted the issues, which the Cass Review noted in its own FAQ, chief of which is the Telegraph said the Review called for slower transitions for those <u>under 25</u>, when the review ''explicitly'' did not comment on trans healthcare for those <u>over 18</u> ...
	:'''TLDR''': FFS they platform ] on trans topics all the time (specifically the conversion therapy promoting kind), say patently untrue shit, and academia has agreed they have an anti-LGBT bias ''for decades.'' Frankly, I'm flabbergasted some editors seem to think "journalistic objectivity" means every single article about trans people should quote transphobic quacks (without even getting to the fact the Telegraph disproportionately gives weight to the latter)... ] (]) 21:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::{{re|Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist}} I'm not sure what incident between James Esses and "his employer" you're referring to, because as I said in my original comment, he was ''expelled'' from his ''master's degree'' before he could become a therapist. Digging through your comment, I can assume you mean his ''volunteer position'' at ], something I have not brought up at this RfC.
	::Calling my comment a ] (you linked ] which I assume was accidental) and ] undermines everything you have said, especially since your entire !vote is cited to other comments you've made (which makes it difficult to verify the sources) instead of reliable sources. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 22:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Quoting your original comment, {{tq|Chess claims James Esses was fired for GC beliefs}}. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 22:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::@] You're right, I made some mistake, so for the record:
	:::* Chess claims James Esses was expelled from his masters for his GC beliefs, neglecting to mention the GC belief in question was the ].
	:::* I did mean to link ] instead of ] - your comment was over 1,600 words.
	:::My point still stands that you left out the context that he was fired for advocating a form of conversion therapy. You have not addressed any of my other points, only half addressed that one, and those diffs have the sources in them - you are free to click them. If you have more to address, please do so in the discussion section. ] (]) 23:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::You can't simultaneously criticize me for posting a ] and say I didn't include enough context. Virtually all of the sources summarize his views as "gender-critical" including the two you linked, so that's an accurate summary. The UK College of Psychotherapists {{tq|also recognises the validity of the professional belief that children suffering from gender dysphoria should be treated with explorative therapy.}} How can his views be ] if they were recognized by the professional organization regulating psychotherapists as being valid? You have not provided any evidence in terms of reliable sources to show that James Esses practices or supports conversion therapy. The most you have in your linked comment is a ] (deprecated BTW, not reliable) article where he advocates against a legal ban on conversion therapy because it would have a ] on psychotherapy. You also have a Misplaced Pages article (not reliable) cited to sources that predate UKCP recognizing Esses' views as valid. '''There is nothing reliable that accuses James Esses or Thoughtful Therapists of promoting conversion therapy.'''
	::::Anyways, you have now added some more context on James Esses' beliefs. How does that impact the reliability of The Telegraph? You haven't even attempted to answer that question beyond pointing to a single article from the ] that supposedly is more balanced than The Telegraph. Your reasoning is seemingly that for The Telegraph to be more reliable than the Daily Mail, every article ever published in The Telegraph must be of a higher quality than any article ever published by the Daily Mail in its history. That's not how reliability works; ]. '''A deprecated source putting out a really good article now and then doesn't reduce the quality of an article from a reliable source.'''
	::::I have also said above that regardless of Esses' personal beliefs, quoting him in a news story doesn't mean that The Telegraph endorses his views. They are quoting him to give another side to a debate on transgender issues. Even if James Esses' is unreliable, that doesn't make The Telegraph unreliable for quoting him. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 02:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::{{tq|How can his views be WP:FRINGE if they were recognized by the professional organization regulating psychotherapists as being valid}} Ah yes, the UKCP, the only medical organization in the UK to withdraw from the , signed by dozens of medical/psychological/psychiatric bodies, because the UKCP thought it went too far in protecting kids. - When you are the sole medical org disagreeing with the rest of them on the definition of conversion therapy, ya ].
	:::::We can agree to disagree on whether or not it impugns a source's reliability to publish more blatantly biased pieces that omit information than the ]. You think that's an excusable issue, I think it's a profound indicator of unreliability.
	:::::{{tq|There is nothing reliable that accuses James Esses or Thoughtful Therapists of promoting conversion therapy.}} FFS Thoughtful Therapists is a rename of the "Gender Exploratory Therapy Asociation" - you are free to read the section on ] in the article ]... And if you go through ], you'll find consensus was that the UKCP's position defending it did not outweigh the sources saying it is conversion therapy.
	:::::{{tq|How does that impact the reliability of The Telegraph?}} - In this diff where I compare the DAILYMAIL and telegraphs' coverage, I note {{tq|The Telegraph does not actually mention A) how he treated kids who wanted to transition and called childline or B) how young these too young kids were}}. I also note contradictory and misleading statements the Telegraph makes, such as claiming he was fired for openly expressing GC views, when the issue was they objected to him campaigning mentioning his affiliation with Lifeline.
	:::::
	:::::{{tq|They are quoting him to give another side to a debate on transgender issues.}} - I suppose we can also agree to disagree whether a newspaper frequently quoting ] ] on articles about a minority impugns it's reliability. ] (]) 03:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::You're speculating baselessly as to why UKCP didn't sign the MOU, and nowhere does this MOU say that "gender exploratory therapy" is conversion therapy. Here's the PDF: It calls out {{tq|‘reparative therapy’, ‘gay cure therapy’, or ‘sexual orientation and gender identity change efforts’}} by name, but does not mention gender exploratory therapy. Signing the MOU is neither an endorsement nor a repudiation of the claim that ''gender exploratory therapy'' is ''conversion therapy''.
	::::::'''You haven't shown anything to suggest that the UKCP didn't sign that MOU because UKCP believes that gender exploratory therapy isn't conversion therapy, or that the UKCP endorses conversion therapy.'''
	::::::Meanwhile, the Mother Jones article says nowhere in its own voice that gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy. It quotes {{tq|Casey Pick, director of law and policy at the Trevor Project}} as saying that it is, but then it also quotes the UKCP + the interim Cass Report as saying that gender exploratory therapy is fine. So, that article doesn't take a position.
	::::::If we rank up the evidence, we have someone from the Trevor Project and an inconclusive talk page discussion at ] saying gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy. On the other hand, we have the ] and the interim version of a systemic review saying otherwise. '''Do you have convincing reasons for why the regulatory body is wrong beyond any doubt?''' Because the burden of proof for ] isn't that it's just an ]. You have to show that his views are pseudoscientific quackery, not just controversial, because as you said, {{tq|a newspaper frequently quoting ] ] on articles about a minority impugns it's reliability.}}
	::::::And I'm unsure if you're interpreting this article correctly. It clearly says {{tq|As his online advocacy around safeguarding continued, he was told not to refer to the charity or his role there}} and later {{tq|The NSPCC, Childline’s parent company, says "We respect people’s rights to hold different views, but volunteers can’t give the impression Childline endorses their personal campaigns"}} The article covers that James Esses believes he was kicked out of Childline for his views, and Childline says it was because he stated his affiliation while perpetuating his views. This isn't a contradiction. '''Either way, his views played a part''', so the article covers that they agree on that point and then goes onto elaborate on where they disagree (Childline saying that it would've been fine to express those views if he hadn't mentioned his affiliation). If you're claiming his views played no part, you're proposing the article say something like {{!tq|James Esses was kicked out of Childline for publicly discussing his employment there}} end of story. This would ignore the core of the piece.
	::::::And the Daily Mail is unreliable for facts, so the Daily Mail asserting that James Esses said something isn't proof he said that thing. You need to provide a corroborating source to show that what is said in that article is true if you want people to believe it. Even so, the best two aspects of the Daily Mail are that Esses supposedly treated kids with gender exploratory therapy (which has nothing to do with him leaving Childline) and that the Daily Mail gave specific ages.
	::::::If you're asserting that the Telegraph misled readers by omitting these facts, '''how was the reader misled'''? What false belief would someone have by reading the Telegraph that they wouldn't get by reading the Daily Mail? Because it's not just about saying that the Daily Mail was more interesting to read, you have to show that the Telegraph was ''less reliable'' because it omitted those facts. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 05:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::{{tq|You're speculating baselessly as to why UKCP didn't sign the MOU}} - 1) they withdrew their signature ''after'' signing it and 2) they're pretty explicit they left over concerns on how it applied to kids
	:::::::{{tq|You haven't shown anything to suggest that the UKCP didn't sign that MOU because UKCP believes that gender exploratory therapy isn't conversion therapy, or that the UKCP endorses conversion therapy.}} - I never said they did.... I said they withdrew their signature because they disagreed with all the other medical orgs signing it on how to define conversion therapy, which is self-evident.
	:::::::{{tq| Do you have convincing reasons for why the regulatory body is wrong beyond any doubt?}} - ] applies, when basically every medical org and academic source says "this is conversion therapy", and your evidence otherwise is 1) a MEDORG that disagrees with the rest of them on what is conversion therapy and 2) a single sentence from a half finished report, then we go with "this is conversion therapy". Once again, read ], which contains plenty of sources. And, you seem to have not noted that per the MotherJones piece, 1) the ] criticized "exploratory" therapy and 2) ] <small>(yes, ''that'' NARTH)</small> endorses it...
	:::::::{{tq|how was the reader misled?}} Apart from euphemizing conversion therapy and neglecting to mention he and TT campaign against bans against it? <small>I want to note for the record I made a mistake, I mixed up GETA/"therapy first" with "thoughtful therapists" in previous comments since the membership/views overlaps so much and they endorse eachother often</small>. Here's a big issue: {{tq|Either way, his views played a part}} - nope, only in one way. The telegraph says, in their own voice in the article's 2nd sentence, "Esses was fired for openly expressing his views". Childline said "the issue was using our name, we offered him the chance to keep campaigning without it". The telegraph implies the views themselves were the issue, while it's clear it was using his Childline position for advocacy (''immaterial of what position was advocated''). ] (]) 16:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::{{tq|I said they withdrew their signature because they disagreed with all the other medical orgs signing it on how to define conversion therapy, which is self-evident.}} OK, so how is that evidence of ]? The background to the decision that you helpfully link now says they only signed because of confusion over the implementation. Specifically, that {{tq|At the time of signing the MoU in 2016, the understanding of the UKCP Board of Trustees was that it only related to over-18s}}, they later learned it applied to all ages, and that {{tq|without the involvement of and full consultation with UKCP child psychotherapists and child psychotherapeutic counsellors, UKCP would not have signed the MoU if it was known to relate to children}}. In other words, they have to consult stakeholders before signing something affecting them. They didn't do the consultation, and now that stakeholders are complaining, they feel the need to withdraw. Not an endorsement or disendorsement of the scientific views of the MOU. '''While they're the odd one out, it doesn't appear to be because of ] views.''' I'll note that they still fully oppose conversion therapy for minors.
	::::::::Anyways, according to ], Misplaced Pages is an unreliable source, because anyone can edit it and so you're just citing the result of a discussion on a talk page elsewhere on this site. That is why I have repeatedly asked for the underlying sources for your claims, given how contentious this topic is. Despite your repeated assertions that {{tq|basically every medical org and academic source says "this is conversion therapy"}}, you have only been able to provide that article, the ], and now ] (which I missed and is the only medical organization you've cited). I've provided the ]. It doesn't make sense to go in circles on whether gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy since no new information will appear at this point IMHO.
	::::::::The reason why I asked {{tq|how was the reader misled?}} is because the goal of the ] policy is to prevent false information from making its way onto Misplaced Pages.
	::::::::'''All of the stuff above matters only to the extent it impacts The Telegraph's reliability''', which is why I asked to see a connection between the Telegraph {{tq|euphemizing conversion therapy}} and an incorrect belief that a reader might have by reading the article. As an example, we heavily discussed whether gender exploratory therapy is conversion therapy. '''Can you provide examples of how The Telegraph would be used to cite a false claim about conversion therapy?''' Keep in mind that ] already recommends against citing the popular media without a high quality medical source to corroborate it.
	::::::::So far, you've only provided one claim you say is false that could be cited to The Telegraph. It's that {{tq|The telegraph implies the views themselves were the issue, while it's clear it was using his Childline position for advocacy}}. But this isn't what the article says, you acknowledge it's an implication you're drawing from the article. Our policy on ] already says contentious material about living persons (along with challenged or likely to be challenged statements) can only be sourced to content that ''directly supports'' the claim made, "directly support" meaning {{tq|the information is present explicitly in the source}}.
	::::::::'''It's already impossible to cite the implication you're referring to in an article''', so what harm to the encyclopedia is prevented by designating The Telegraph as unreliable? <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 00:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::@], I think you've posed the most important question. "What harm to the encyclopedia is prevented by designating The Telegraph as unreliable?" That really cuts to the heart of the matter. ] (]) 00:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::1) There is a discussion section so the survey section doesn't get bloated. If you want to leave a few hundred more words in reply to this, please use it - otherwise I won't respond and make this even more difficult for the poor closer.
	:::::::::2) Since you refuse to click the links at ]: WPATH, ASIAPATH, EPATH, PATHA, and the USPATH say its conversion therapy SAMHSA and the Trevor Project says its conversion therapy. These academic RS say its conversion therapy. Here's one that notes it's been described as conversion therapy and notes there is no evidence whatsoever it is useful or effective. Here are more RS calling it conversion therapy. Here is the ] calling it conversion therapy. And here is a reliable source noting '''<u>] (''the original pro conversion therapy lobbying group'') endorses "exploratory" therapy and works with those pushing it</u>'''.
	:::::::::3) Here's a Telegraph piece saying the UKCP dropped out because of their support for "exploratory" therapy and this led to calls to change the board. Funny enough, it repeats the false claim wrt the Cass Review that "The former president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health found that no one under 25 should be rushed into changing gender." (so your breakingnews argument from earlier doesn't apply)
	:::::::::4) I should have said {{tq|The telegraph <s>implies</s><u>outright says</u> the views themselves were the issue, while it's clear it was using his Childline position for advocacy}} - they say {{tq|Last year, he was ejected from his psychotherapist training course – three years in – for openly discussing his fears... weeks later, Childline removed him from his volunteer role as a counsellor <u>on the same grounds</u>}}
	:::::::::5) {{tq|Can you provide examples of how The Telegraph would be used to cite a false claim about conversion therapy?}} - See that per the quote in 4, you could cite the Telegraph to say Childline removed him for "openly discussing his fears" (as opposed to "for campaigning with their name, after they asked him to stop using their name but said he could keep campaigning").
	:::::::::6) {{tq|What harm to the encyclopedia is prevented by designating The Telegraph as unreliable?}} - we'd keep out distortions of fact, promotion of ], and ] weight towards nothingburgers the Telegraph has blow out of proportion. We could still use the Telegraph, ''if there was a good reason'', but we could acknowledge their publishing on trans topics is tabloidlike at best these days. ] (]) 00:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::I'll keep this brief as you asked. The only specific use of the Telegraph you say is preventable by designating unreliability is point 4) as point 3) falls under ] and I've argued 4) above.
	::::::::::Re: point 6), evaluating it on a case-by-case basis would be ] (use sometimes), not ] (use ]), contradicting your !vote. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 03:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::{{tq|And if you go through Talk:Conversion therapy, you'll find consensus was that the UKCP's position defending it did not outweigh the sources saying it is conversion therapy.}}
	::::::A local consensus arrived at by ] trying '''and failing''' to establish ] and ]'s service specification and the landmark ] as FRINGE.
	::::::Please stop misusing ] in this hyperbolic way. It is exhausting. None of what you're complaining about is FRINGE. The Cass Review explicitly highlighted the weaponisation of discourse around "exploratory therapy" and "conversion therapy" and specifically stated that the continual conflation of the two was harmful.
	::::::Using any of this longstanding medical dispute over highly contested terminology to argue for the unreliability of a source is well out of scope for this RFC. ] (]) 11:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			Certain pages about certain living subjects contain an infobox template that really emphasises view counts and subscriber statistics. However, that data is often sourced from ]. Here's what WP's page about Social Blade says;
	*'''Option 1''' (sorry for the lengthy !vote). u:Loki has made 3 main arguments 1) coverage of the student-identifying-as-a-cat story 2) "going beyond simple bias and directly saying false things" and 3) secondary sources criticising their coverage. Re 1) I agree that they could've done a better job covering this story (see my comment 08:36, 12 May 2024) but if it's the worst thing they've done it doesn't justify a downgrade. Re 2) I think that the provided examples indeed show a bias but nothing more than that. Are you suggesting that platforming anti-trans groups makes a source unreliable? Also, they did not say that James Esses was a therapist in the linked article. Re 3), I've reviewed the article by Bailey and Mackenzie and haven't found where they say that the Telegraph is unreliable or give examples of falsehoods (but I may have missed it). The is from 2021, and has a bit of hair-splitting feel to it (see item 22 in which the inaccuracy is described). Anyway, all British newspapers have had IPSO rulings against them, so by itself it's not a disqualification. Since the whole thing is voluntary, it's actually a positive sign as they have subjected themselves to an external regulator. ]<sub>]</sub> 21:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			"An official YouTube Twitter account, @TeamYouTube wrote that "Please know that third party apps, such as SocialBlade, do not accurately reflect subscriber activity." Social Blade's Twitter account responded to that tweet, commenting "We don't make up data. We get it from the YouTube API. We rely on it for accuracy." Social Blade's community manager Danny Fratella suggested that YouTube content creators may notice subscriber and view count purges more due to a higher accessibility to data-tracking tools like Social Blade."
	*'''Option 2''' I do not find the defense of the Telegraph's reporting on the cat identifying controversy convincing. From what I've seen it was obvious that the discussion of the students did not involve someone literally identifying as a cat (it involved a student using that as an example to criticize people identifying as another gender), and I don't think any of the quotes from that discussion support that someone literally identified as a cat when those quotes are taken in context. Whereas The Telegraph reported it as if someone was actually identifying as a cat , and other reliable sources reported it in a much more grounded and accurate manner . Taken with other questionable reporting relating to this topic, I think it should be classified under Option 2, as its reporting may sometimes still be useable.--] (]) 22:53, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', per Chess and others. As for the cat story, all they say is some varient on students "were reprimanded for refusing to accept a classmate’s decision to self-identify as a cat". This is true; there is a tape recording of students being reprimanded for this, which is a different claim from the one editors above are concerned about, that a student ''did'' identify as a cat. ] (]) 23:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Are you aware of the concept of a ] in linguistics?
	*:In short, "students were reprimanded for refusing to accept a classmate’s decision to self-identify as a cat" makes all of the following claims:
	*:1. students were reprimanded for refusing to accept a classmate’s decision to self-identify as a cat
	*:2. students refused to accept a classmate's decision to self-identify as a cat
	*:3. a classmate decided to self-identify as a cat
	*:(plus several trivial claims like "the students exist" and "the classmate exists")
	*:This is obvious if you consider a sentence like "The queen refused to accept the prime minister's decision to resign". Obviously this sentence asserts that the prime minister decided to resign. ] (]) 00:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::First, your hypothetical differs from the quote; the equivalent hypothetical would be "The king chastised the queen for refusing to accept the prime ministers resignation", which would imply that "the queen refused to accept the prime ministers resignation", and that implication would in turn imply "the prime ministers resigned". The statement remains true regardless of whether the prime minister actually resigned.
	*::Second, per ] and ], we can only include content that is {{tq|directly and explicitly supported by the source}}, which means we could not use those quotes to support the claim "the prime minister resigned" or "the students refused to accept a classmate's decision to self-identify as a cat". Given that we only care about whether a source is reliable in relation to how it can be used in Misplaced Pages, why does it matter?
	*::Finally, my understanding is that it was only known that the classmate did not identify as a cat after these articles were published, and your concern is that they didn't publish corrections. Why, when the actual claim the source makes remains true, would we expect a source to publish corrections regarding an implication of an implication? ] (]) 00:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::{{tq2|The statement remains true regardless of whether the prime minister actually resigned.}}
	*:::No it doesn't. (Arguably its truth value is indeterminate if the prime minister didn't resign but see ] this is a huge tangent.)
	*:::{{tq2|Second, per WP:OR and WP:V, we can only include content that is directly and explicitly supported by the source, which means we could not use those quotes to support the claim "the prime minister resigned" or "the students refused to accept a classmate's decision to self-identify as a cat".}}
	*:::We absolutely could. Presuppositions are direct and explicit statements.
	*:::{{tq2|Finally, my understanding is that it was only known that the classmate did not identify as a cat after these articles were published, and your concern is that they didn't publish corrections.}}
	*:::Known for sure, yes that's true. Though they obviously could have asked the school about it and avoided this whole situation.
	*:::{{tq2|Why, when the actual claim the source makes remains true, would we expect a source to publish corrections regarding an implication of an implication? }}
	*:::The claim the source makes is false. Presuppositions are claims by the source. You cannot defend a shoddy source because it puts its false claims in subordinate clauses. ] (]) 01:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::{{tq|No it doesn't.}} and {{tq|The claim the source makes is false}}
	*::::You're assuming that a sentence can only produce one set of presuppositions; that isn't accurate. Take the hypothetical provided above; if we insert a presupposition trigger on the attitudinal verb "chastised", we get at least two possible presuppositions:
	*::::#The queen refused to accept the prime ministers resignation
	*::::#The king believed the queen refused to accept the prime ministers resignation
	*::::So long as one of these presuppositions is true, the statement is true. The same is true of the second order presupposition "the prime minister resigned".
	*::::{{tq|Presuppositions are direct and explicit statements}}
	*::::By definition, presuppositions are a type of assumption - see the article you linked.
	*::::{{tq|Though they obviously could have asked the school about it and avoided this whole situation.}}
	*::::My understanding is they reached out to the school, and the school must not have clarified that a student didn't actually identify as a cat - possibly they didn't know, given that ]. However, even if they hadn't reached out to the school, "failing to get clarification regarding an implication of an implication" wouldn't suggest any reliability issues. ] (]) 02:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::This is literally ] of the ] variety. If we can just start backtracking from any statement in a newspaper article to find logical presuppositions that might be wrong, even the slightest contradiction implies that an article has lied about every fact in the known universe due to the ]. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 02:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:'''Additional comment''': While I was origionally open to the notion that the source was biased, ] has lead me to reconsider this. Editors had argued that the source was engaged in {{tq|targeting and fearmongering}} based on which gender it referred to a child as, and that it was aligned with fringe practioners of gender conversion therapy based on its use of the terminology "watchful waiting".
	*:Additional research has found that the opposite is true. As proven with sources below "watchful waiting" is in fact a highly respected model of care, and the Telegraph was likely following best practices with that article by aligning their reporting with the mainstream medical guidance the child had been recieving. Given how incorrect this argument of bias was I'm no longer convinced by the other arguments; I would oppose adding a note regarding bias to their RSP entry. ] (]) 19:44, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::"Watchful waiting" is not a (major, anyway) part of the argument that they are biased. The argument consists of them misgendering, deadnaming, and asking anti-trans groups for opinions on nearly every article related to trans people. And that's disregarding . ] (]) 19:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::The misgendering appears to fall under the same topic; the gender they used was aligned with the medical advice provided by the treating clinician in accordance with the "watchful waiting" model.
	*:::My overall concern is that the arguments being made for this source being biased are themselves ]. In this case, we were able to prove that - but many of the other claims are not as easy to objectively assess, and it is a very realistic possibility that many of them are just as incorrect as this one was. ] (]) 20:44, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Still, Loki has presented a plethora of secondary sources as well (see the last sentence in their !vote) that believe the Telegraph's biased against. ] (]) 15:50, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	* {{ec}} '''Option 2'''; it seems pretty clear that they have a decently strong bias, but I remain unconvinced that this bias impacts their factuality or reliability in a meaningful enough way for gunrel. Cheers, ] (] • ]) 02:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' – it's gone far beyond just bias in my view, and the Telegraph, at least in this subject area, is firmly in the realm of disinformation. The thought-terminating cliche of "it's reliable because it's always been reliable" isn't helpful here; if we were analysing a source that did everything the Telegraph is doing here but didn't have the pedigree, it would be deprecated pretty damn quickly. ''']''' (]) 03:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1'''. Ignoring all the reportage on trans-related matters because some of it may be considered unpleasant by a few editors is antithetical to the interest of providing information to the general public and Misplaced Pages reader. ''The Telegraph'' (Daily/Sunday) has -- if a handful of writers and columnists don't sing the tune some editors like to hear, well then ... too bad, so sad. ] ]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:black">Ol' homo.</span> 07:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:* But here lies the question. ''Why'' use a newspaper with such a determinedly anti-trans viewpoint when there are multiple reliable sources that ''don't'' have that baggage? We wouldn't use a newspaper that was openly pushed racism or religious bigotry such as Islamophobia (hello ''Daily Mail''). I can't help thinking that, even at Misplaced Pages, "gender-critical" views are the last piece of bias against groups that it seems to be OK to have. ] 07:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:*:That’s a question of ], not reliability - and it is better assessed on a case-by-case basis. ] (]) 07:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' I've already explained in the earlier discussion and would go further and say The Telegraph is generally unreliable for any topic that has become the focus of its editorial culture warring. It has zero interest in fact checking and accuracy on these topics. The fact that so-called reliable sources influence WP:WEIGHT gives me additional concern because the Telegraph isn't just biased, but is determined to publish anti-trans stories on a continuous basis out of all proportion to proper journalism on the state of our country or planet. We'd have blocked User:Telegraph for WP:NOTHERE a long time ago. They are not here to publish journalistic facts on these issues like we expect of a reliable news story, but are at the level of some kind of wingnut blog. -- ]°] 08:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' No source will be 100% unbiased on any topic but I see no substantive evidence to persuade the Telegraph is biased on trans issues. But even the framing of this as being a 'trans issue' rather than a women's and girls' rights issue lends undue and unnecessary bias to this RFC right from the start. ] (]) 10:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:* Now ''there's'' an interesting comment, as its subtext is exactly what the ''Telegraph'' does on regular occasions - insinuates that trans rights and women's rights are incompatible, despite that being obviously untrue. ] 10:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:*:The rights of (non-trans) women and trans people can be at odds, like the rights of any two groups. For example, if you think that a male-born person who looks exactly like a typical man, declares himself a woman without making '''any''' external change (surgery, hormones or even makeup and dress) to look like a woman, has a right to use women's bathroom then it might be at odds with the right of women to feel comfortable in their bathroom. ] (]) 10:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::* And of course, by using the most extreme example possible (how many times has this *actually* happened?) you're doing exactly what the anti-trans culture warriors at the ''Telegraph'' are doing as well. As can be determined by reading their transgender articles linked to above, it goes far further than bathrooms, which is only a small part of the issue. ] 11:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::*:I don't know how many times it happens. I don't even know in how many places such a person as I described would actually be allowed legally in women's bathrooms. It was a hypothetical. What is your position on this question by BTW? But in any case that example shows that trans rights taken to the extremes, can be at odds with women rights ] (]) 11:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::* Precisely - "taken to the extreme". On that basis, the rights of ''any'' group could hypothetically clash with the rights of a given other group. But what the ''Telegraph'' and and its collection of culture warriors are doing is trying to limit trans rights without ''any'' criteria, purely because of their status as trans people. How do they do that? Well, with tropes like the bathroom one and the ones about what kids are taught in schools (like the one mentioned above, often spectacularly false). It's insidious and - along with its sudden fondness for climate change denial - it's not worthy of what ''used'' to be a well-regarded newspaper. ] 12:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::*:Can you show an example of the Telegraph saying that trans rights should be limited without ''any'' criteria, just because they are trans? I don't think I saw examples for this in this discussion, though as it's grown so long so fast I could have easily missed them. ] (]) 13:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::* , though some are far worse than others. This is what happens when you employ a "gender critical" extremist. But it doesn't ; every one of those articles is 10 days old or less. ] 18:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' I, too already explained my position in earlier discussion, though the accumulation of evidence since has persuaded me to drop a peg further down from my original !vote of "aditional considerations apply". Bias per sé is not a problem, but it is a problem if it leads to issues with factual reporting. I think the way "not caring about the facts" is expressed in the telegraphs regular reporting is mostly(!) through imprecision, but imprecision is still a form of inaccuracy. If a paper presents a story in a way that is intentionally misleading the audience, it is being unreliable, even if ''technically '' no counterfactual claims have been made. A lie by omission is still a lie, in this case. Proper editorial process also means making sure you're not presenting facts in a way that is misleading, and I think that's the part of the process where the telegraph fails the test. Regarding some of the comments above: while columns can't be used for factual claims and newspapers can't be used to support medical information without attribution anyway, I contend the following: A. most of this topic area's problems are based in a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of medical information; B. Nothing stops a paper that misrepresents medical information from also misrepresenting other information, and C. in a similar vein, a newspaper not caring about the accuracy of information in columns can still be a sign of a paper not caring about the accuracy of information, generally. In conclusion, I don't think the telegraph's editorial standards survive scrutiny. EDIT: to add another point I recall making in the RFCBEFORE: I notice a lot of "1" voters reference deprecation. I tend to think there's a world of distance between deprecation and the thing actually being suggested by most other editors in the discussion. --] (]) 11:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. The problems with the ''Telegraph'' in this subject area are obvious. The folks in favor of Option 1 haven't (so far as I've seen) answered what ought to be the obvious question: ''why'' and to what end would you want to cite the ''Telegraph'' on trans issues? ] ] 12:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	** It is possible that one may cite the ''Telegraph'' because per ]: {{tq|the neutral point of view does not mean the exclusion of certain points of view; rather, it means including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight}}. ''']] (])''' 14:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:There are fundamental questions about notability and how we refer to subjects that depend on how they are referred to by assessing coverage in the majority of ], even if we don't actually cite those sources to construct the article. In this specific area there is a huge amount of controversy and polarisation, with epithets like "anti-trans" and "woke" and "transphobe" and "far-left/far-right" and "TERF" thrown around willy nilly. By making The Telegraph generally unreliable, or even deprecated, its coverage cannot then lend weight to legitimate debates about where the most neutral tone lies.
	*:This is particularly important given specific lines of argument made by the opener about tone and which POVs it chooses to seek comment from. In one specific named example, if the charity Sex Matters is deemed "anti-trans" '''by editors''', and thus that a source engaging with them ''is a basis for deeming that source unreliable'', then that is going to irreparably skew all coverage of that charity in any page where coverage may conceivably appear. Any source which offers quotations from representatives of this charity can - and will - be challenged. Seeing as these debates of "unreliable on trans issues" have not restricted themselves to The Telegraph, but also encompass other sources like The Times and The Economist, I urge extreme caution about the wider impact of this.
	*:* Telegraph quotes group x
	*:* Assert that ''truly'' reliable sources don't quote group x because they are "baddies"
	*:* Ergo Telegraph is not a reliable source
	*:Its a kind of no-true-scotsman ratchet. Any source which does not outright dismiss certain disfavoured groups as "anti-trans" could by this logic end up "unreliable" - and thus one particular POV will be insurmountably entrenched. ] (]) 16:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			The question is should we trust it?
	*'''Option 1''', bearing in mind that this is for sources which are {{tq|'generally reliable’ ‘in most cases’}} and that '{{tq| It will normally still be necessary to analyze how much weight to give the source and how to describe its statements}}'. It will always be necessary to distinguish between statements of fact, and expressions of opinion: this applies to all sources, not just the ''Telegraph''. The objections to the ''Telegraph'' in this RfC are based on its opinions – no satisfactory evidence has been produced that its factual reporting is unreliable. ] (]) 14:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' - in my view, {{u|Astaire}}, {{u|Chess}}, and {{u|Void if removed}} have, in detail, persuasively rebutted Loki's initial claims of unreliability. The rest of the evidence raised by other users seems to be lacking. Particularly, opinion articles are not an excuse to render news articles unreliable, for example, we list ''The Wall Street Journal'' as generally reliable, and this refers to their news articles, not their questionable opinion articles or questionable ]. In any case, we should not use any opinion articles for facts. ''']] (])''' 14:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 4''' I cannot consider a situation in which we would want to use the Telegraph for an article on trans issues. It has a clear, fringe, bias against trans people and is, at the end of the day, just a newspaper. For anything actually notable a better source can always be found. Let's never use this one. ] (]) 15:34, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:How would the ] edit filter know The Telegraph is being cited on a transgender-related topic? It isn't technically possible to implement deprecation for a single topic area. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 22:25, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. I'm open to logical arguments along the lines of it being overly sensationalistic and tabloidish and needing of more scrutiny and possibly putting it in a lesser category, but the arguments above are more of the sort "it doesn't agree with the properly favored views as handed down by Gender Study departments in academia, so obviously it's not a reliable source." It's on a slippery slope that's destined to lead to demands for other news outlets, even quite respectable ones like ] (of London) and ] to be deprecated if they dare to depart from the party line. Try installing the "Shingami Eyes" plugin in your browser; it's an eye-opener, revealing what is labeled "transphobic" these days. Hint: Both the London and New York Timeses are in red there, as well as ]. No dissent is brooked. If the ideologues have their way, only ] and queer theory academic papers will be acceptable sources. ] (]) 21:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Correcting myself... on a re-check, it appears Shingami Eyes isn't actually putting either the London or New York Times in red any more, though ] is, as is ] and ]. ] (]) 22:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Shinigami eyes is a plugin that anyone can access that allows people to vote sources positive or negative. There's been lots of discussion even within the community that know about it about it's accuracy and about how because anyone can vote this accuracy is extremely dubious. That you're trying to use this as a point in a slippery slope argument that could be used against making any source unreliable is just a plain rubbish arguement. As for the first point a lot of people are arguing that, alongside embracing fringe positions, the telegraph has started to publish more tabloidy misinformation (I'm honestly shocked any UK paper reported on the cat incident) and advocate for conversion therapy. ] (]) 23:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. Being biased does not make a source unreliable, though since their extreme bias on this topic is probably the least controversial aspect of this discussion, that's a good place to start: update the RSP entry to be clear about that. However, the extent to which The Telegraph has let that bias get in the way of factual reporting and lead them into distortions and inaccuracies (as has been been discussed to death in the pre-RFC thread and again, above, in this one) is unsettling. Whether they're ''so often'' unreliable as to make defaulting to scepticism / 3 the best approach, or simply defaulting to caution, to something like 2 or even a '1 but be cautious', is something reasonable minds can (and clearly do!) differ on. For my part, I conclude based on the evidence presented that for the topic area this RFC is discussing their journalism is sufficiently shoddy (inaccurate or misleading in such a way that if we source statements in articles on it, we'll find ourselves having to correct them later when reliable sourcing becomes available), sufficiently often, that it generally can't be relied upon: i.e., option 3. ] (]) 22:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. Reliable reporter of facts. The cat story allegation has been exposed as a beat up. Other objections are ]. ] (]) 22:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC).
	*'''Option 2 (or 3)'''. It's abundantly clear from this discussion that The Telegraph (a publication that has been on a slow downward trajectory quality wise for some time) is at the very least considerably biased with regards to transgender topics, to the extent that inline attribution of their views should be required as a minimum. How much this bias impacts their reliability is complicated and seems non-uniform - sometimes it has resulted in distortion and misleading presentation that is firmly in unreliable territory, at other times it's merely partisan framing that is exactly the sort of thing that "additional conserations apply" is designed for. In short, in this topic area, it is neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable but rather it is sometimes reliable and sometimes unreliable so we should never be using the Telegraph as our only source and should evaluate its reliability on a case-by-case basis. ] (]) 00:59, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''', or option 2 possibly extending to other topics such as climate per Colin. I'm not sure how everyone else is assessing things here, but imv the ''Telegraph'' of today is not the same ''Telegraph'' that broke the MP expenses scandal. It may have had a {{tq|reputation for fact-checking and accuracy}} for well over a century, but like Horse Eye's Back it seems to be giving a good go at changing that. I don't know, maybe it's too soon, so far the extended negative commentary has largely been confined the {{em|opinion}} pages of other publications. But then, is reputation not the opinion of your peers? I don't see the fact that their reputation is due to misleading information rather than outright falsehood and fabrication to be a defence. It affects reputation all the same, if perhaps less so. We have a pattern of, if not deliberate disinformation, then at least a wilful disregard over spreading misinformation. Such a source would be questionable where other sources exist, and care should be take in other cases. This is not (and should not be) a prohibition on including their opinion, due weight permitting, though in-text attribution may be necessary. ] (] • ]) 10:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', same as the source as a whole. First, we have long said that bias doesn't mean not reliable. We certainly are happy to cite sources with a strong biased that is the opposite of the one discussed here. The original claims used to say Option 3 have been thoroughly address by {{u|Chess}} and others. {{u|Barnards.tar.gz}}'s comment about people becoming so embedded in a POV as to that POV as objective fact was also an important observation here. Finally, {{u|Void if removed}}'s comment about trying to declare source that cites a disfavored source (16:07, 4 June 2024) is also a very legitimate concern with respect to violating NPOV over time. Like many of the media articles on this topic, we should treat all of these with caution and care but the justification for any sort of global downgrade of this source on this topic simply isn't supported by the evidence presented here. ] (]) 12:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', as per the rest of the newspaper. 2 at a push. I'm afraid I'm not seeing a great deal more than an opposition to the newspaper's political positions here. ] (]) 13:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2''' per Queen of Hearts with the consideration being to prefer alternate sources due to its bias. I would be uncomfortable citing them, but many above such as Void have demonstrated that arguments on factual unreliability remain unconvincing. ] (]) 14:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Also per ]. I don't see the Telegraph presenting anti-trans slander as fact. ] (]) 19:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Looking at the first three points at ], excluding the Cass review coverage, which have already been commented on by Void et al:<br />This applies to many sources here. As said before, misgendering is definitely bias, but not factual inaccuracy.{{tqb|Makes directly false claim that XXY or XYY "does not alter a man's biological sex"}}Erm, how is that false? From the National Health Service and many other sources quoted in our own articles, {{tq|Klinefelter syndrome (sometimes called Klinefelter's, KS or XXY) is where boys and men are born with an extra X chromosome.}} Same thing for XYY.{{tqb|claims binding is significantly more dangerous than it actually is}}The said symptoms all exist. Giving undue weight with true information is bias, not inaccuracy.{{pb}}{{tqb|misleading about breast binding}}As Luna correctly pointed out above, this ({{tq|breast ironing is illegal as a form of female genital mutilation}}, {{tq|more than 97 per cent of adults who use suffer health problems as a result}}) is indeed quite an example of distortion presented as news and fact. However, I don't think these particular statements tip the scales enough to move the source into GUN area.{{pb}}{{tqb|citing Maya Forstater as a reliable source on the issue}}It cites her as the leader of a political campaign group and quotes her relief while linking her name to an article about her statement made with JK Rowling. I don't see how that presents her as a reliable source. ] (]) 22:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::{{tq2|As said before, misgendering is definitely bias, but not factual inaccuracy.}}
	*::Misgendering an individual is certainly a factual inaccuracy. If I called you Dave Liu that'd obviously be false, right?
	*::In the particular article you're talking about I'll grant you it's less clear because the person in question is underage, and therefore can't legally change their name or gender. But in principle it's the sort of thing that any reliable newspaper would correct if they got wrong.
	*::{{tq2|Erm, how is that false? From the National Health Service and many other sources quoted in our own articles, "Klinefelter syndrome (sometimes called Klinefelter's, KS or XXY) is where boys and men are born with an extra X chromosome." Same thing for XYY.}}
	*::Both of those are listed on ]. I'm not claiming that they make a man into a woman or anything like that, just that the medical consensus is that they can "alter a man's biological sex". (Though you're right that I should have been more clear about that.)
	*::{{tq2|It cites her as the leader of a political campaign group and quotes her relief while linking her name to an article about her statement made with JK Rowling. I don't see how that presents her as a reliable source. }}
	*::It doesn't say "political" campaign group, and in fact doesn't give any information about the nature of the group. It just says "campaign group". It also quotes her opinions at length without a rebuttal and clearly in a way that endorses what she says. Shortly thereafter it quotes a "think tank" that is actually a major conservative think tank, again without saying it's conservative.
	*::And I'll note here explicitly that the things she says are pretty obviously not true? Like, no, trans-friendly language hasn't "created widespread confusion" or "harmed patient care". ] (]) 02:06, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::{{tqb|If I called you Dave Liu that'd obviously be false, right?}}thanks for the morning laugh {{smiley}}. Well, if a reliable source decides to call me Dave while acknowledging my real name, I don't think that should count towards excluding the source for its davery.{{tqb|the medical consensus is that they can "alter a man's biological sex".}}I'll admit that I'm not familiar on the topic, but I'm not sure about that. said that there wasn't consensus on whether Klinefelter's was intersex and says that XYY are "'supermale'" "men", narrating how it led to doctors dropping terms like "intersex" and labeling everything as ] instead. I can't find consensus tat these are all considered different sexes.{{tqb|It just says "campaign group".}}Well, to me, the only meaning of that is a political action group. I don't see how that lends its way towards being intended to mean "expert in gender".<br />(and I still think undue weight is bias, not inaccuracy. I'm sure that we can find a good portion of sources contrary to the Telegraph's biases, especially if the outcome of this were to prefer alternate sources.){{tqb|no, trans-friendly language hasn't "created widespread confusion"}}Such is enough to confuse these bigoted brains, of which unfortunately there are many. ] (]) 11:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1/2''' they seem to have a clear editorial view on the issue, which should possibly be considered when using it as a source. But the "deprecation" proponents do not make any compelling argument; the fact the Telegraph has opinion columnists who don't believe "trans women are women" is not an argument for deprecation. ] (]) 16:41, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Much of what you've said could be interpreted as a strawman - having opinion columnists with an opinion is indeed not an argument for deprecation, but almost nobody is arguing for deprecation, and their issue isn't that the opinion columnist have an opinion it is that facts are being distorted and/or misleading presented to favour/promote that opinion. ] (]) 17:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:: I don't think it is a strawman. Loki (the proposer) is saying this should happen because {{Tq|examples of the Telegraph going beyond simple bias and directly saying false things about trans people or trans issues ... They've multiple times alleged directly that trans women are men or trans men are women}}. Several other "deprecation" votes list platforming of "quacks" or "gender-critical activists" as motivation for their vote. ] (]) 17:34, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::I don't think replacing "deprecation" with "generally unreliable" changes the argument in any way. ] (]) 18:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I think the larger problem is the "the telegraph has opinion columnists who don't believe" statement, these points are generally made in the telegraph's news sections and are statements made by the columnists (not just their beliefs) ] (]) 13:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2/3''' per Thryduulf, with particular support for the {{tq|inline attribution of their views should be required as a minimum}} suggestion. I'll also echo the {{tq|update the RSP entry to be clear}} comment by &#45;sche. ] (]) 23:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' I'm convinced by the arguments of Chess and Void if removed: Loki's examples show, at best, that ''The Telegraph'' has a certain perspective or bias on these matters – which is ] – not that it is unreliable on the facts. Chetsford has also made an excellent comment which has undeservedly flown under the radar:
	::{{tq|I'm uncomfortable sidelining a source based on the lexical analysis of editors as to whether they are or are not accurate in the absence of third-party RS saying they are or are not accurate. Content analysis, as I've previously noted, does not involve pulling examples out of a hat. It's a methodical research process that requires (as a best practice, in case of newspapers) the assessment of two constructed weeks of content for every six months analyzed. That has not occurred here. In the absence of editors showing their OR as to the Telegraph's reliability meets generally accepted research standards, I'd need clear, compelling, and significant evidence from RS. And I'm not seeing that.}}
	:I don't trust reliability assessments based on a single editor (who will naturally have their own biases) unsystematically compiling a list of examples. (1) They're just too easy to consciously or unconsciously skew and (2) it's a level of scrutiny ''no'' major source would withstand. – ]''']''' ] 03:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1 or very good 2''' regarding everything that can be cited (as something that is not MEDRS), I'm seeing framing and reporting in poor taste and bias, but no clear indication of unreliability. Some additional concerns regarding due and framing are valid, but not enough to significantly impact reliability to the degree were editorial discretion cannot be trusted to exclude the minimal number of articles that should not be cited or only cited with attribution. ] (]) 08:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Not sure if that makes the vote one or two, and it probably shouldn’t have to be said, but: depending on coverage, additional considerations should apply to BLPs, with the phrasing being along the lines of “additional caution should be applied when using the source about living people” ] (]) 20:32, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*<s>'''Option 4'''</s><small>(changed my mind, elaborating below)</small>. Loki has proven that ''The Telegraph'' should NOT be used on trans issues. "Bias is fine for a RS"? Really? Maybe if it's stuff like a newspaper supporting a sports team over an other, but not when it comes to basic human rights. ''''']''''' <sup>(] / ])</sup> 03:41, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Changing to '''option 3'''. Maybe deprecating the ''Telegraph'' entirely for their (admittedly awful) reporting on trans issues is a bit much, considering they can be okay on other issues. ''''']''''' <sup>(] / ])</sup> 09:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Yes, bias really is fine for an RS. Read ]. – ]''']''' ] 14:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:: Indeed, but not the point; the issue is that a biased source such as in this case should not be used to state something in Wikivoice, especially if it is the sole source. For example, instead of "X is a fact" it should say that "AB, writing in the ''Telegraph'', claimed that x is a fact". ] 14:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Our ] on the matter is we already shouldn't be treating seriously contested assertions as facts in any case, not just those which writers in ''The Telegraph'' may make. So I agree with you we definitely should be attributing perspectives on controversial issues or contested assertions – but this should be ordinary practice, not ''Telegraph''-specific. – ]''']''' ] 11:00, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::When it's actively harmful? No, a bias isn't fine. ''''']''''' <sup>(] / ])</sup> 17:49, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::(1) Writing an encyclopedia requires we write neutrally – giving all perspectives their due weight, including perspectives we consider harmful.
	*:::(2) I'm not comfortable having you, me or any other editors making binding calls on what perspectives count as harmful. It's far too easy for conscious or unconscious animosity towards a source's perspective to seep in and bias our assessments. – ]''']''' ] 11:15, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::There’s a difference between including all significant viewpoints and uncritically including misinformation. “Homosexuality is evil” is a notable opinion, but we don’t put it in the same “weight class” as the scientific consensus that homosexuality is natural and harmless. ] (]) 21:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::It is well-known that news articles should not be used to source science details and can only source science reactions at most. I also don't see how the Telegraph treats opinions as fact. ] (]) 23:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:If bias on trans issues disqualifies a source, I guess Pink News should be marked unreliable, then. ] (]) 01:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::When has Pink News said anything documentedly false about trans issues? ] (]) 02:13, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::The , , for one. ] (]) 03:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Settling libel claims in the UK is not convincing, since the UK's libel laws are tilted very heavily towards plaintiffs. ] (]) 06:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I am not familiar with Pink News as a source, but on a quick search I found :
	*:::{{tq2|The review also claimed that, while '''research suggests that hormone treatment “reduces” the elevated risk of suicide''', there is “no clear evidence” that social transition has any positive or negative mental health outcomes.}}
	*:::This statement is inarguably false. See pages 33 and 186–187 of the :
	*:::{{tq2|86. It has been suggested that hormone treatment reduces the elevated risk of death by suicide in this population, but the evidence found did not support this conclusion.}}
	*:::{{tq2|Some clinicians feel under pressure to support a medical pathway based on widespread reporting that gender-affirming treatment reduces suicide risk. This conclusion was not supported by the above systematic review.}}
	*:::{{tq2|15.43 In summary, the evidence does not adequately support the claim that gender-affirming treatment reduces suicide risk.}}
	*:::This kind of falsehood is what should be presented to call into question a source's veracity—not casting aspersions or equating bias with unreliability, as has largely been done here. ] (]) 22:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Article from April 10, ]. ] (]) 22:26, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::RSBREAKING is a warning to editors to be cautious when including breaking news. It is not an excuse for the sources we use to be inaccurate. ] (]) 22:49, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::{{tq2|WP:RSBREAKING says that otherwise reliable sources can have serious inaccuracies because of the nature of breaking news.}} -from a post by User:Chess in this RfC ] (]) 23:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::Inaccuracies in breaking news stories impact a source's overall reliability less than other types of inaccuracies. But they should have an impact all the same. The Pink News example I cited is particularly egregious. Not only is it directly contradicted by multiple parts of the Cass Review, it clearly shares wording with the first quotation I gave from the review ("suggests", "hormone treatment", "reduces", "elevated risk"). So the PN writer likely read this basic, easy-to-parse sentence from the review and somehow reported the complete opposite.
	*:::::::Regardless, we are getting off topic since this is not a Pink News RFC, so I will stop here. As it pertains to this RFC, the relevant point (that has been made more eloquently by Chetsford and others) is that cherry-picking negative examples does not provide a true picture of a source's reliability, particularly when these examples are cases of disfavored framing or phrasing rather than actual inaccuracies. ] (]) 00:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::In practice, when dealing with the popular media's summary of breaking medical news, their articles have problems. You can easily find examples from any newspaper summarizing some new medical research related press release that fail to understand basic facts of the science.
	*::::::For this reason, we already discourage the use of breaking news in articles when a better source later on is available. Ditto for the popular media without corrobation from more academic RSes.
	*::::::This is relevant because the examples presented of The Telegraph being unreliable can already be removed under our existing policies as we already have "additional considerations apply" in those areas. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 02:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::In addition to what Flounder has said, I also think quoting the summary only is a little misleading, since the Cass Review mentions a full systematic review which does find that gender affirming treatment reduces risk of suicide and then dismisses its conclusions for methodological reasons.
	*::::Or in other words, the Cass Review did find research that suggests gender affirming treatment reduces suicide risk. That wasn't the conclusion of the report, but they do report on the other research that does come to that conclusion. ] (]) 00:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::That interpretation not only pushes the bounds of believability in terms of how we commonly understand language, it would actually make this sentence worse—going from sloppiness to outright misinformation by failing to report the Cass Review's findings. It is also contradicted by the next clause in the sentence, which is clearly discussing the review's conclusions and not the research itself.
	*:::::If someone tried to state in wikivoice that "research suggests that X treatment has Y effect", citing a systematic review that discarded that research for being low-quality, they would be shut down immediately. ] (]) 00:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::I am {{em|inclined}} to suggest that ''PinkNews'' should use in-text attribution in many if not most cases, but that ], I have not looked at it in ''sufficient'' detail to make such a statement. It's a little odd it's tagged green but the blurb says additional considerations apply. ] (] • ]) 15:39, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::{{re|Dtobias}} The whole reason why this RfC is happening is because editors on ] don't like The Telegraph and want to strip out citations to it, in many cases with Pink News. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 19:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Well, when you put it that way, this whole thing looks like a tendentious POV-push time sink. ] (]) 19:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Are you kidding? Colin, the editor making that edit, been arguing with everyone else for the '' reliability'' of the Cass Review! He's also one of the main editors behind ], so the idea that he's some sort of POV-pusher is absurd (and despite disagreeing with him on the underlying issue there I have defended him against accusations he's trying to push some sort of anti-trans POV). ] (]) 21:44, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::It was more started because people disliked how the previous RFC was conducted (from what I gather there were 3 similar one at the same time and accusations of canvassing). The "spark" was the telegraphs awful reporting on the Cass review, mainly misinformation about how the follow -up service will be done. Also of note is that currently that page has 1 reference to pinknews and 2 to the telegraph so any supposed povpushing has been very ineffective.] (]) 19:58, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Could you elaborate on the misinformation The Telegraph has provided about the Cass Review?{{pb}}(Also, I think you meant "had no point" instead of "has been very ineffective".) ] (]) 20:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::They consistently misinterpret the recommendations of Cass for transgender people in the ages of 17-25, according to the telegraph, Cass says these people should go to a different service to over 25s. In actuality it if one received care before they were 17 they are initially seen by a "follow on" service. As well as there seems to be some confusion as to the provision of hrt to these 17-25 year olds.
	*:::::(I was making a small joke that if editors were povpushing and replacing the telegraph with pinknews, those editors have done a very poor job of doing so considering the references) ] (]) 20:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::Can you please cite the exact article text from the Telegraph that you say is a misinterpretation? I cannot find evidence to support your claim that {{tq|The "spark" was the telegraphs awful reporting on the Cass review}}. There is a discussion in the Cass Review talk page archives with the title ], but there is no justification for this demand other than vague claims that it would be "extremely inappropriate". If that was truly the spark for this RFC, why has it not been mentioned anywhere in the discussion so far as evidence for the source's unreliability? ] (]) 21:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::{{tq2|why has it not been mentioned anywhere in the discussion so far as evidence for the source's unreliability?}}
	*:::::::hit ctrl+f on your keyboard and type "Cass". ] (]) 22:47, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1'''. The Telegraph is a long-established, serious, mainstream British newspaper, with the editorial content mildly to the political right. Sure, you can no doubt find an article or series of articles where the reporting does not support your viewpoint, because the reporter either selected a different range of sources or drew different conclusions. Or sometimes reporters even make errors in reporting the facts. But this is true of any newspaper reporting on any topic; we all know that a newspaper article produced to a deadline may not be the whole truth. I consider the Telegraph generally as reliable as any British newspaper, and I find it infeasible that its reporting on trans issues is any different. The other options proposed here are attempts at censorship for political ends. ] (]) 09:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:{{tpq| The Telegraph is a long-established, serious, mainstream British newspaper}} none of that is relevant. The Telegraph has a long history, and as multiple people on all sides of this discussion have pointed out, until a few years ago it was a high quality, very reliable source. However it has been going slowly downhill since then. What matters is whether it is reliable ''now''. Just because it hasn't fallen off a cliff like e.g. Newsweek did in 2013, doesn't mean that quality has not been declining. {{tpq|I consider the Telegraph generally as reliable as any British newspaper, and I find it infeasible that its reporting on trans issues is any different.}} The reliability of British newspapers spans a huge range from stalwarts of reliability like The Times to publications like the Daily Mail that is not even reliable for past content in its own publication. The Telegraph is still ''generally'' reliable (although not as much as it used to be) for most topics, but despite how infeasible you personally consider it much evidence has been presented that, at the very least, additional considerations apply to this topic area. ] (]) 11:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::In case you are misunderstanding my wording as "as reliable as ALL British newspapers", no, I meant as reliable as the best-quality British Newspapers such as the Times and the Guardian. I don't notice any particular decline in its quality and nor do I note general agreement in these comments about that. ] (]) 13:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::], you consider ''The Times'', a newspaper that went out of its way to deadname ] (, ), to be one of the best British newspapers? I guess even the "best" are awful when it comes to trans issues. ''''']''''' <sup>(] / ])</sup> 20:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::If deadnaming makes a source unreliable to you, then enough said; but listen to yourself! ] (]) 06:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::A little bit up on this page, I was asked to come up with actual factual falsehoods perpetrated by Pink News if I was to assert that it shouldn't be seen as a reliable source due to its bias. I could ask the same of you with regard to The Times; "deadnaming" does not constitute factual falsehood as the name was accurate, and the question of whether they should have printed it or not is a matter for debate under moral philosophy, not a matter of whether they are saying false things. ] (]) 22:41, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Another aspect has struck me. When a right-leaning newspaper like the Telegraph has an article relating to Misplaced Pages, I have been shocked and disappointed by the stong antipathy towards us expressed in the readers' online comments, emphasising our supposed left-leaning bias and unreliability. I don't know where this opinion comes from, and probably much of it is uninformed. But in some way "proscribing" a respected right-leaning source like the Telegraph is exactly the sort of flagship action that will confirm these people in their distrust of Misplaced Pages's neutrality. I think that some editors here are mainly concerned to make this a political statement, but it will be counterproductive in persuading those with whom you disagree, and completely unnecessary because in any case we should always be aware of any source's limitations. For Misplaced Pages to remain credible, we do need to consider a broad range of mainstream opinions. ] (]) 06:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	::There is a difference between expressing a mainstream opinion and presenting falsehoods as fact (explicitly or misleadingly). There are no shortage of sources that express anti-trans opinions without venturing into unreliability. ] (]) 09:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	::It is extremely not our job to persuade anyone of anything. In fact I'm fairly sure persuading people is in WP:NOT somewhere. As for alternative opinions, GUNREL doesn't prevent attributed opinion (we shouldn't have unattributed opinions anyway) and I don't believe there should be any room on this project for alternative facts. ] (] • ]) 15:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 2 (Option 3 for BLP material)''' reviewing the above that's not just bias, that is bad reporting (so bad, there are confused accounts even above), also for much of this topic, we should never use a newspaper for almost anything, and further individual's lives require much more care under WP policy. ] (]) 14:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' - there are plenty of sources available that publish neutral information on this topic; we can safely avoid one that, per the sources presented already, publishes information obviously intended to advance a particular point of view, and publishes outright conspiracy theories as though they are factual. Furthermore ''The Telegraph'' is not a source of expert opinion on this topic, there's no reason why Misplaced Pages needs to publish anything that they say about it. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 19:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	*: {{ping|Ivanvector}} What {{tq|outright conspiracy theories}} are you referring to? ] (]) 07:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	*<s>Option 2/3, , Thryduulf put it very well.</s> '''Option 3'''. I think Loki and others have established that they promote quackery on the subject; a source that promotes quackery is, by definition, at least generally unreliable (so, option 3, not my earlier "2/3"). This isn't about political disagreement. ] (]) 09:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC) <ins><small>edited 13:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)</small></ins>
	*'''Option 1/2''': I am not convinced by the arguments to designate "generally unreliable", but the bias is evident. I am not familiar enough with RSN's procedures to decide whether that warrants "additional considerations". ] (]) 12:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', per Chess. --] ] 16:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', per Chess and others. ] (]) 16:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3'''. I wish the presentation of this matter had more clearly differentiated examples of the ''Telegraph'' having an anti-trans editorial stance from the equally numerous examples of said publication resorting to unethical practices in furtherance of that stance.{{pb}}I advise to pay the most attention to the cases listed at ], where many such examples may be found. Points of note include the ''Telegraph'' consistently using quotes to skimp out on journalistic integrity and put forth untrue and unverified statements, e.g. the milk article; and the case of James Esses, whom they consistently quote implying he is an expert, which he in no way is.{{pb}}In all of the ''Telegraph''{{ '}}s coverage I have reviewed, there arises a certain common thread: the use of misgendering language and terms like "transgender ideology" in the publication's own voice. While some may argue that the choice of terminology is a matter of preference, I think otherwise. ] the term "transgender ideology" implies that such a thing exists, which is not in accordance with any actual research. See also ]. Use of misgendering language similarly makes a claim about gender that is far outside what is accepted as fact, vide ] and ]. Some may say that what gendered words to use about someone is subjective; that, however, implies the existence of some knowable objective truth outside of the consensus of reliable sources. ] <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- ] (])</b> 18:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:You state that one must not claim that objective truth exists, and you also state that the ''Telegraph''{{'}}s statements are contrary to truth, which seems rather contradictory. Ah, but you're ''not'' saying that "objective truth" says that one set of language is correct and another set is not, or that there's no such thing as "transgender ideology"... just that ''reliable sources'' say that and Misplaced Pages must fall in line. But then when some sources say otherwise, you use this as evidence that they're ''not'' reliable. Seems like a ] fallacy, and a circular argument. ] (]) 19:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::According to the above logic no reliable source could ever be deemed unreliable (as everything a reliable source says would be reliable). What Maddy seems to be suggesting is the balance of sources says that misgendering is a refusal to acknowledge the fact of trans people as their gender and because of this the telegraph publishes against fact (but I'll stop putting words into their mouth). ] (]) 19:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Care to provide any RS describing ] as anything other than a nebulously defined buzzword to attack transgender people?
	*::If it helps, unreliable sources that define it include:
	*::* ] - {{tq|Transgender ideology claims that each person has a ‘gender identity’ (an internal sense of gender) which may or may not align with their biological sex. ... Underlying this movement is a radical form of self-determination, with its roots in Gnosticism. Subjective feelings overriding objective, biological, genetic reality. Ultimately, it seeks to completely destroy the distinction between men and women that God in his wisdom has created.}}
	*::* ] in the ] - {{tq|This is gender ideology—the belief, not backed by any meaningful empirical evidence, that we all have an ineffable gender identity, knowable only to us.}}
	*::* Fun fact, all medical organizations and human rights group acknowledge the existence of gender identities, which have been evidenced by conversion therapy failing to work on trans people.
	*::* ] - They don't define it, just take it for granted people will be mad when they make the title {{tq|Transgender Ideology Hurts Kids}} and suggest conversion therapy as an alternative {{tq|The most helpful therapies do not try to remake the body to conform with thoughts and feelings—which is impossible—but rather to help people find healthy ways to manage their tension and move toward accepting the reality of their bodily selves.}}\
	*::* The ] doesn't define it but sure as hell want you to fight it! After all {{tq|As the new school year begins, parents are discovering that transgender ideology and policy has taken hold in schools across the country}}.
	*::* ] vaguely defines it as the think they want to charge people with sex offenses for - {{tq|Pornography, manifested today in the omnipresent propagation of transgender ideology and sexualization of children ... Its purveyors are child predators and misogynistic exploiters of women. Their product is as addictive as any illicit drug and as psychologically destructive as any crime. Pornography should be outlawed. The people who produce and distribute it should be imprisoned. Educators and public librarians who purvey it should be classed as registered sex offenders. And telecommunications and technology firms that facilitate its spread should be shuttered}}
	*::] (]) 20:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:{{re|Maddy from Celeste}} Again, instead of just handwaving that {{tq|many such examples may be found}}, it would be helpful to provide ''specific quotes'' from these examples. For most of the examples, I'll assume you're just referring to Loki's previously refuted examples (so I'll point to the comments I made earlier), but the term "transgender ideology" has not yet been discussed. So, I'll ask, '''do you have any examples of The Telegraph using the term "transgender ideology?"''' It is impossible to judge The Telegraph's usage of the term unless you provide examples of it being used in context. I see {{u|Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist}} has brought up examples of ''other'' sources using the term, but no examples of The Telegraph.
	*:In order for The Telegraph's usage of the term ''transgender ideology'' to be an issue, you have to show that they're using it in an unreliable way. Control+F on Loki's page reveals the only non-opinion article by The Telegraph using the term "trans ideology" to be this one, so I assume that's the one you meant: As far as I can tell, the piece doesn't define "trans ideology" in any of the extremist ways that YFNS cites. The only specific example of trans ideology in the linked page is the use of the term ] instead of ]. It would seem to me that the type of person that uses the term "trans ideology" would agree that the term chestfeeding is an example of that, so it doesn't appear The Telegraph is ''inaccurately'' applying the term.
	*:I'd also ask whether or not usage of ]s (see: every newspaper calling everything ]/AI) ever been a reason to declare a source unreliable? The ] policy exists to ensure citations aren't used to support false claims. It seems to me you're saying that "trans ideology" is just a vaguely defined and ultimately meaningless ]. If the term is devoid of meaning, nothing can really be cited from a source's usage of it. So, I'd also ask, '''are there any examples of The Telegraph being used to cite false information about the term "trans ideology"?''' Or is this just hypothetical, in which case, what are you seeking to prevent by declaring The Telegraph unreliable? <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 03:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Y'know, .
	*::They do use the phrase in articles but usually they're either quoting or implicitly quoting someone else, see and . Neither of these are good articles, though: they clearly exist to smuggle dubious opinions into the mouth of a quote.
	*::Like for instance, . Is that opinion based in fact? Very much no, it repeats a bunch of debunked pseudoscience like ]. And they do no fact-checking whatsoever of this opinion. It's not news, it's not a noteworthy opinion, the opinions expressed are verifiably false, and they don't bother to fact-check them at all. ] (]) 04:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::{{tq | Debunked pseudoscience}} and {{tq | the opinions expressed are verifiably false}} are hyperbole. As The Cass Review says "{{tq | This is potentially the most contested explanation}}" - that doesn't make it debunked pseudoscience, and your exaggeration here exemplifies that.
	*::::
	*:::{{quote frame | The argument, initially emerging from interviews with parents of transgender youths, effectively runs that a social contagion fuelled by social media leads to peer group-GD, reflecting a social coping mechanism for other issues. '''The polarisation of the subsequent debate will be familiar to all''', with many experts and scientific bodies critical of the research and concept. '''However, others recognise the need to thoroughly investigate one of the few offered explanations for the recent demographic changes.'''}}
	*:::Branding entirely legitimate POVs taken seriously by MEDRS as "debunked pseudoscience" when they are very much unsettled questions is improper. An RFC like this should be based on actual, provable misstatements of '''fact''' not differences of opinion. Was there actually a child who identified as a cat in a classroom? Provably, no. Is peer contagion of gender dysphoria a contributing factor to ? MEDRS disagree, but on the whole it is treated as controversial, as-yet unknown and worthy of study, and very much not "{{tq | debunked pseudoscience}}".
	*:::Additionally, the claim you point to is irrelevant because ''we would never use The Telegraph as a source to establish this as fact'', but what you seek to do here is exclude it as source generally on the grounds it ''lends credence to a POV you consider false'', and handwaving at the ] page to back that up. This is tantamount to saying: a local editorial consensus is fact, ''and any source that disagrees is not reliable''. That is a dangerous route indeed if permitted. ] (]) 12:07, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' per Colin] (]) 19:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per Chess. ] (]) 02:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' - Per many examples presented here, The Telegraph stubbornly refuses to accept new information, perspectives, and research. Alone that would be a ''2''. When a source elevates active misinfomration and harmful hate speech, as The Telegraph now does, we should stop giving it the benefit of the doubt. Too much of the defense of this paper here seems to be based on inertia instead of Misplaced Pages policy. Coasting on past accomplishments and stodgy British Connservatism - name a more iconic duo. ] (]) 04:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per Chess and Barnards.tar.gz. I also think there should be a moratorum on "WP:RELIABLE source on trans issues" RFCs. IIRC, they've all failed and for good reason. - ] (]) 06:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 3''' - per the numerous examples shown by many users above; Maddy summarized well that the Telegraph using terms that are commonly used as anti-LGBT rhetoric in their own voice implies an issue on the topic and we have many other more reputable news sources on the topic, so removing coverage from the Telegraph isn't a big loss to Misplaced Pages as we can lean on other RS that manages not to disparage people while reporting on them. ] (]) 14:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 1''' per Chess and others. ] (]) 12:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC).
	* '''Option 3''' - per all the sources above of the issues . ] (]) 13:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''', per Loki and other sources above — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> <small>(he/him; ])</small></span> 19:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 3''' per the sourcing and ]'s terrific input here but also per what's got to be an exhausting amount of good work by ] at playing devil's advocate. Arguably, it's worked ''too'' well because this thread has gotten input from editors who, despite being known for their intelligence and who certainly do not have reputations for transphobia, sadly seem to have been swayed away. But no matter: a healthy majority of participants here are getting better ''in real time'' at advocating in favor of human decency and against abuse of transgender people and it's thanks (mostly) to Chess, who I believe would not stand for any sort of mistreatment of those different from them. <b style="font-family: Segoe Script;">'']]]''</b> 03:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:What leads you to believe that Chess is arguing against his true position for some demagogy reason? ] (]) 12:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Same reason that I appreciate City of Silver for acknowledging that their central point is a) The Telegraph is transphobic, b) people that are against declaring it unreliable are (possibly unintentionally) supporting transphobia and c) we should ] by declaring The Telegraph as unreliable because d) a !vote declaring it unreliable is {{tq|advocating in favor of human decency and against abuse of transgender people}}.
	*::The role of a ] is to strengthen an argument by pointing out factual errors, despite my agreement with your underlying value system. Since you're acknowledging that I have an {{tq|exhausting amount of good work}}, I assume you agree that I addressed all of Loki's factual points and really, our comments disagree on whether or not banning an anti-transgender source is a good method of fighting transphobia. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 21:19, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' - it’s generally reliable, although biased. Are there other sources that are better for reporting on trans issues? Yes. ] (]) 10:14, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Would you support an Option 2 that recommends using alternate sources? ] (]) 12:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::No need… Instruction creep. ] (]) 12:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::RSP isn't a page that's intended to be read in its entirety, so I don't see how CREEP applies here. If we have consensus to prefer sources other than the Telegraph, I think it's best to reflect it in a place accessible to newcomers. ] (]) 12:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::We can always replace one reliable source with another we think is even better. You don’t need to specify that this applies to the Telegraph. It applies to ''every'' source. ] (]) 17:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::The problem is, there is no existing documentation on whether editors consider Telegraph less reliable. This RfC aims for much more than a per-page consensus. There's also precedent of putting such words at RSP to no negative effect, and this would probably benefit newcomers. For example:{{tqb|'''No consensus''' on reliability; '''rough consensus''' to use the sources with in-text attribution and to prefer the use of stronger sources.|source=sole line of ]}}{{tqb|The Washington Times is probably suitable for its mundane political coverage, although better sources should be preferred when available.}} ] (]) 19:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::] links to wikiproject Middle-Earth. ] (]) 22:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''option 3''' - per springee. ]]] (]) 12:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:I said option 1. ] (]) 12:38, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::i know. ]]] (]) 12:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Could you elaborate on that? ] (]) 12:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::as a rule of thumb, anything springee supports is right-wing pov pushing. ]]] (]) 12:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::This sounds borderline ]. ] (]) 12:57, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::Whether it is or it isn't an ad hominem, it clearly isn't a nuanced position arrived at after careful consideration of the evidence presented. ] (]) 13:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::Ltbdl seems generally rude, flippant and uncommunicative in their edits and ignores advice and warnings. I’d recommend either ignoring or reporting them. ] (]) 15:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::A formal warning was given 2 hours after my reply, and he expressed guilt. I think if one were to discuss it, it should be somewhere else instead of this section. ] (]) 16:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:'''Option 3''' I’m just going to throw in my 2 pence (cos it’s British, get it) and say that, no, a conservative-leaning non-expert publication from a country where transphobia is widespread and mainstream even among nominal liberals is not reliable on transgender topics. ] (]) 15:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::The UK is one of the least transphobic countries in the world, see . Are you suggesting that we shouldn't use media from ~180 countries in which the situation is worse? ]<sub>]</sub> 16:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::That article is about the legal rights and opportunities, not necessarily how the public treats the subject. See the last paragraph of ]. ] (]) 16:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::And trustworthy as that travel blog filled with caveats is, I present the ] 2024 report which says (among ''many'' other criticisms of the UK):
	*:::* {{tq|Anti-LGBT hate speech remained common (see here, here, and here). Following his visit to the UK, the UN Independent Expert on SOGI (IE SOGI) expressed deep concern about the growing toxic and hostile environment that LGBT and particularly trans people face in the UK, attributing much of the hate to politicians and the media. In this environment, the UK’s Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) continued to fail trans people this year (see under Equality and Non-discrimination)}} p 161
	*:::] (]) 16:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::If you're citing UN Independent Experts, note that ], the ], takes an opposing view on these issues. Also note that the UN investigation against the EHRC resulted in a finding that they should retain their status and had not violated any UN rules. At any rate, if you're arguing strenuously for a source being unreliable because it reflects views that are "widespread and mainstream even among nominal liberals", then perhaps you are the one whose views are "fringe"? ] (]) 17:07, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::Sorry, can you quote where Reem Alsalem as said anything about the growing transphobic climate in the UK and where this climate is coming from. Also one country can have a widespread view and that view be fringe, that should be non negotiable. ] (]) 18:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::She certainly disagrees with what should be labeled as "anti-trans": 'She has been on the receiving end of two open letters signed by NGOs and women’s groups, accusing of her being “anti-trans”, an allegation she forcefully rejects. “Why is it so problematic for women, girls, and also men, to say, ‘This is important; many of our needs emanate from being female, or male, and there are certain instances where it’s proportionate, legitimate and perfectly necessary to keep a space single sex’?” While “that doesn’t apply to everything in life”, it is important, Alsalem believes, for prisons, women’s shelters and sport.' ] (]) 23:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::Ok, so she has nothing to comment on the fact that is rising transphobia in the UK and therefore does not take an opposing view on those issues. Otherwise you would have said something about that instead of quoting from an opinion piece ] (]) 15:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::In ], {{tq|Reem Alsalem said it "would potentially open the door for violent males who identify as men to abuse the process of acquiring a gender certificate and the rights that are associated with it".}} This person that studied in Cairo, Egypt, holds one of the views condemned in this RfC, which is that The Telegraph was wrong for publishing an article with the views that that males who identify as men can enter women's only spaces by claiming to be women.
	*::::::The standard that {{u|Dronebogus}} proposes and YFNS seemingly endorses is interesting. Would DB support declaring ] as unreliable on transgender topics because ] What other sources can we ban from the ]?
	*::::::'''The substance of your !vote is that we should ban this source because it is from a transphobic country'''. This is a position that would be called ] if it was taken on any country other than the ]. And ILGA's reports on LGBTQ rights that YFNS cites have been criticized for that exact reason by academics. Either you think the ] is uniquely transphobic in a way that countries with legally mandated conversion therapy are not, or your rule would ban uncivilized (read: non-Western) countries from opining on transgender issues on Misplaced Pages. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 00:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::1) Is there evidence that ] is unreliable on trans topics? The UK Media has been criticized as transphobic and biased, that could be true regardless of the laws there. Do not conflate "the media has a recognized bias in this country" with "I just don't like this country's laws"
	*:::::::2) This article raises good points, but you're missing a key one. It doesn't say ILGA is wrong, just that it left out the context of how Western imperialism shaped global homophobia/transphobia and didn't criticize the Western powers enough. If you're arguing the UK is the victim of western imperialism, and issues with transphobia in the media there should be discounted on that basis, then I really don't know what to say.
	*:::::::3) The UN expert on LGBT topics still criticized the UK media. Attacking ILGA's reliability is silly, as that's not the source of the claim.
	*:::::::4) That BBC article you linked for Alsalem notes {{tq|This was disputed by a separate independent UN expert on gender identity, who said the legislation would bring Scotland in line with international human right standards.}} and {{tq|Liz Throssell, spokesperson for the UN high commissioner for human rights, backed the view of }} who agree this hypothetical of men pretending to be trans women is a non-issue.
	*:::::::5) Also, the irony of saying the UK is a victim of trans cultural imperialism even as it overrode Scotland's gender recognition reform is palpable.
	*:::::::<small>Every day, I tell my friends the funniest arguments I've seen on Misplaced Pages - the UK is the victim of trans cultural imperialism is hands down the winner.</small> ] (]) 16:03, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::I'm addressing the point that The Telegraph is unreliable because it's {{tq|from a country where transphobia is widespread and mainstream}}, which is the only rationale in Dronebogus' !vote. If you agree that standard isn't enough to declare a source unreliable, I'm going to assume you don't stand behind that logic and so this discussion is no longer about that !vote. If you want to provide your evidence that all British media is unreliable for trans topics for different reasons than Dronebogus, I invite you to start a subthread in Discussion and I'll engage there, especially as you've repeatedly told me to take stuff to the Discussion header. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 21:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::I don't think "it doesn't violate any UN rules" should be used to evidence that the UK media has low transphobia. ] (]) 18:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::Um, ] and pals? Anyone? Even the Guardian, the bastion of British progressive journalism, occasionally platforms transphobic viewpoints. Even some British Wikipedians have expressed the belief that obviously transphobic opinions are well within the ] both on and off wiki. So yes the UK has an endemic transphobia problem. ] (]) 21:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::Perhaps some of these people disagree with your opinion on what is "transphobia"? As does the tribunal in R D Adams v Edinburgh Rape Crisis Center, which found the labeling of the claimant as "transphobic" to create a hostile environment for people with gender critical beliefs: 'MW then goes on to say “Transphobia exists in our organisation as do other prejudices”. The clear implication of this is that the claimant is transphobic. She then goes on to invite AB to file a formal complaint. In the view of the Tribunal this was clearly unwarranted behaviour which was linked to the claimant’s philosophical belief. It clearly had the effect of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating and offensive environment for the claimant. She was being called transphobic and a promise made to a colleague that they would no longer have to work with her.' ] (]) 23:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::As a crumb of context, the defendant had asked how to misgender a transmasculine worker named AB (who ], the CEO, told could file a complaint), and campaigned for the right of service users to make discriminatory requests of the service (IE, that people should be able to specify they don't want to be seen by transgender women) at a clinic that's been trans-inclusive for over a decade. Frankly, my reaction about hearing about this case weeks ago was to wonder what's next: "I only want to be seen by white women" gets ruled a protected belief that clinics have to respect? ] (]) 15:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::That is a gross misrepresentation of what the tribunal determined happened in this case. For anyone who is interested in the facts, the full judgment is here . ] (]) 16:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::{{tq|Much of the tribunal centred on a disciplinary process that began after Ms Adams sought clarity on how to respond to an abuse survivor who wanted to know if a support worker who identified as non-binary was a man or a woman.}}
	::::::::::{{tq|The tribunal ruling noted that Ms Adams' view was that people using the centre should have a choice over who they receive support from on the basis of sex}}
	::::::::::{{tq|Ms Adams has since gone on to work for ]}} (a clinic founded by ] which does not hire or serve or transgender women) ] (]) 17:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::{{tq| it reflects views that are "widespread and mainstream even among nominal liberals"}} ''in a certain country''. These are not mainstream views anywhere else. They are globally ].
	*:::::]s article notes how UN officials responsible for overseeing LGBT rights and human rights think she's anti-trans, and hundreds of feminist groups worldwide agreed. The UN's definitions of human rights for LGBT people (which include self-id) directly contradict her positions. ] (]) 15:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::I don't think this continuing back and forth is adding anything to the RFC, I suggest moving any further comments to the discussion section. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 21:28, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', since we're going with bolded !votes, but I'd broadly repeat what I this was discussed. It's generally reliable in a newspapery sense. Newspapers select what stories they want to print, and how they want to write them, based on their audience, and the Telegraph has a... particular type of audience. I don't believe they are any less reliable than newspapers are in general, which is to say it's not great a source for all sorts of assertions; maybe I'm really saying 'Option 1.5', because other considerations always apply when dealing with newspapers. ]] 16:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', I've kept an eye on this conversation for a while, and I've seen nothing compelling to suggest that the Telegraph should be deprecated in any way. This has mostly turned into a discussion of whether or not editors '''like''' the Telegraph's reporting on trans issues, but you don't have to like what an RS says for it to be an RS. ] (]) 18:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per ] etc. - I'm not comfortable mandating RS to hold certain political positions either, and that's basically what this discussion is. ''''']''''' (]) 18:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Option 2''' I don't think it has been shown that the Telegraph is a (edit: generally) unreliable source, but it has been shown to be transphobic and biased on LGBT issues. Additionally, my understanding is that it should never be used as ], an area in which many of its issues with reporting on trans issues arise. It should be treated as a right leaning, generally Anti-LGBT, source same as you would treat sources that center pro-LGBT activist voices. ] (]) 20:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*: I am updating my original vote to just solidly option 2 after some consideration. I think that articles like which only quote anti-trans orginizations and the government official in question are obviously biased. It includes inaccuracies such as saying that the council "have also been criticised by gay rights activists", when who they mean is the LGB alliance who are considered an anti-trans organization and are not respected by 99% of other gay rights organizations. I still believe these articles could be used in balance with opposing view points and with other more neutral sources, but this source on this topic should be considered quite biased and used carefully. ] (]) 21:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::{{re|Gnisacc}} - you missed that the Telegraph did quote a Westminster City Council spokesman {{tq|The council supports festivals and celebrations…}} other than quoting Stuart Love, the council’s chief executive. ''']] (])''' 00:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			Plus, why do pages about gamers and vloggers place so much emphasis on what appears to be arbitrary, trivial information that is prone to fluctuation?]] 15:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per summary by Chess. Biased, but not unreliable. ] (]) 03:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1 or 2''' per Chess and Queen of Hearts and others. I think that, if nothing else, this is yet another for the pile of case studies that RSP is silly and reductive; clearly it is biased, so it is dumb to make an official entry on the official list of official officialness saying it is "green" or "yellow" or "red". It is neither of those things: it is a newspaper. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 05:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per Chess' and Billed Mammal's rebuttals and per Void if removed's and Sweet6970's comments, weak evidence of general factual unreliability, the "cat case" is not enough even for option 2. ] 07:27, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option it is biased but not unreliable'''. I guess you can call that option 2 if you want. I think (among others) Dr. Swag Lord and Jmchutchinson were right to point out that this is a fairly standard newspaper (of record); the editorial staff don't all leave the room when they find out the article is about this one specific topic. I also think that the claims that they publish ''incorrect statements of fact'' on this topic seem to be ''substantively untrue''. They didn't "promote the litterboxes in school hoax", and don't appear to have even have made any incorrect statements of fact here (thanks BilledMammal/Chess), so it is unfortunate to have led with this example. The other evidence is generally about which opinions they present or which people/organisations they quote. That goes to bias, which they have, not unreliability. If this question was just "are there better sources we can use to write about the ]?" The answer is yes, but unfortunately that wasn't the question, so here we are. ] (]) 08:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' per Chess and others. There has been zero evidence of actual unreliability. Some people do not like the fact that they report on factual stories with evidence (the child ''was'' disciplined for that reason, even if the reason itself was untrue), simply because those stories don’t support their personal narrative. Luckily, Misplaced Pages transcends (or is supposed to) personal narratives, and does not consider editors’ personal agreement with sources when determining if they are reliable or not - and there has been zero actual evidence of factual errors. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (]/]) 18:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', per the reasoning provided above by Chess and others. I do not dispute that the Telegraph is biased on this topic, to the point that it all but takes a stance against transgender issues. However, I do not think the cited examples against the Telegraph amount to the paper being unreliable in that topic area. There's a difference between being unreliable and being biased—and you'd be hard-pressed to find any newspaper that is ''not'' biased in any way. One needs to keep ] in mind when writing about controversial topics, and I don't think restricting a source solely based on its bias is a particularly good way to accomplish this. (That said, with regards to trans issues, if less-biased sources exist for a certain statement, I would use those rather than the Telegraph or any other biased source.) &ndash; ] (]) 20:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' - per the claims of dishonest reporting and fabrication mentioned at the beginning of this discussion being themselves mistaken, as noted by a multitude of others. No problem mentioning they are biased, as that seems clear from reading the links provided, but that hasn't impacted the accuracy of reporting. ] (]) 02:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' We're already well-suited to deal with issues of bias, which do seem to be present here. I certainly disagree with the Telegraph on some key things, but no evidence has been presented questioning reliability (as opposed to bias) and getting quotes from opponents or people charged in an article is standard, ethical journalistic practice, not something to be avoided. ] (]) 06:19, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Just to be clear, one of my objections is that they get quotes from supporters and not opponents, and often disguise that the supporters are activists instead of neutral experts. ] (]) 13:39, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::I can read just fine, thank you, but I reject that as significantly backed as a claim on a systematic basis. You've had your say already. ] (]) 23:28, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' I've searched for the reported criticism of the Telegraph on this issue and for me per ] it looks insufficient to discard the source. BBC, for instance, was , but its reliability on the issue still stands, AFAIK. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:I think BBC is a bit apples-to-oranges. I mean, one, it’s just a single article; two, as I mentioned even the ''Guardian'' sometimes runs a transphobic piece; and three, the BBC isn’t really supposed to have an explicit editorial stance, but in any case it’s certainly not “synonymous with right-wing” like the Telegraph. Tl;dr I think British mainstream media has a problem with transphobia in general, but the British right is ''especially'' bad. ] (]) 13:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Yeah, the reason I made this RFC about the Telegraph and not about the BBC or the Guardian or even the Times is that the Telegraph is orders of magnitude worse than any of them.
	*::The BBC is guilty of a lot of ] on trans issues, and occasionally does make factual mistakes, but is still obviously generally reliable. Notably they corrected the worst parts of ], which is more than I can say for the Telegraph. ] (]) 17:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I dunno, the Times seems far worse to me. From editing reporting on Ghey just to remove references to her being a girl to CNN claiming it only published negative articles in their sample. ] (]) 19:52, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::The only question for this discussion is whether the Telegraph is unreliable. Whether the Telegraph is or isn't the worst, or whether other sources are or are not (also) unreliable for trans issues are not relevant here. If you (or anyone else) believes that other sources are unreliable you are free to start a new discussion about them (although it might be wisest to wait for this to conclude first, and a discussion of more than one such source is unlikely to achieve consensus). ] (]) 20:03, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::I say this from compiling evidence on both, though admittedly the Times has a paywall so I didn't read nearly as many of their articles. The Telegraph's bias on this issue is really palpable just from reading them, while the Times is notably more subtle about it. The secondary sourcing is actually more conclusive on the Times, but I figured that the "just go read it" factor weighed in favor of starting with the Telegraph.
	*::::Not sure how much that helped: on the one hand, there definitely is a consensus for bias here, at least. On the other hand, a lot of the negative votes are asking for secondary sourcing, which assuming good faith is more clear for the Times than for the Telegraph. ] (]) 22:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::A consensus for bias doesn't even make a source ]. The big ] says {{tq|Bias is not a reason in itself for a source to be unreliable, but may require in-text attribution.}} <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 05:06, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::There's plenty of sources with a note at ] saying they're biased on certain issues. And of course, sufficiently strong bias can impact a source's ability to report the facts. ] (]) 09:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::Indeed, while bias and reliability are not the same thing, they are not completely independent of one another. Three extracts from RSP:
	*:::::::*Cato institute: {{tpq|Most editors consider the Cato Institute biased or opinionated, so its uses should be attributed. }}
	*:::::::*Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR): {{tpq|Though its articles are regularly written by subject-matter experts in economics and are frequently cited by reliable sources, most editors consider the CEPR biased or opinionated, so its uses should be attributed. }}
	*:::::::*CNN: {{tpq|Some editors consider CNN biased, though not to the extent that it affects reliability.}} This shows a consensus that bias ''can'' negatively affect reliability.
	*:::::::] (]) 10:17, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::Bias ''can'' affect reliability, but you haven't shown that The Telegraph's bias ''does'' affect its reliability. Biased sources can be ] (CNN), ] (Cato Institute, CEPR), ] (Electronic Intifada), or fully deprecated. So, if all you can show is that {{tq|there definitely is a consensus for bias here}}, that's a consensus for a note at RSP. You need to show how The Telegraph's bias is so strong, '''it is no longer able to perform accurate fact-checking because it starts lying to fit its narrative,''' and therefore designating The Telegraph as ] or below will stop lies from getting onto Misplaced Pages.
	*::::::::Nobody here has shown that. It has been shown that The Telegraph has a narrative and regularly quotes people that criticize transgender rights for their opinions, describing anti-transgender rights groups with terms favourable to their POV (gender-critical) and pro-transgender rights group with terms unfavourable to their POV (transgender ideology). The Telegraph also heavily emphasizes facts that fit their belief system, such as transgender women's milk potentially being unsafe and scientific issues surrounding trans women in sports. They also frequently say the definition of a "trans women" is too broad. None of these can be cited for untruths.
	*::::::::The primary example of a bad fact-check alleged this entire RfC is the story about a student at ] who was reprimanded for not respecting another hypothetical student's identity as a cat. The only dispute is '''whether or not a real student actually identified as a cat''', because nobody is disputing that the student was reprimanded.
	*::::::::I've already discussed whether or not that really was a bad fact-check, but even if it was, one week of coverage on a singular story for a paper with an over 168-year history is not enough to demonstrate unreliability.
	*::::::::Brandmeister said {{tq|I've searched for the reported criticism of the Telegraph on this issue and for me per ] it looks insufficient to discard the source}}, which agrees that bias can influence reliability. If you or Loki want to engage with the substance of the !vote, provide ''your'' summary (as I just did) of the examples so far of how The Telegraph's bias influenced its reliability, instead of just proving that it's theoretically possible for bias to influence reliability. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 22:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::It's not apples to oranges when your vote contemplates declaring all of the British media something other than reliable on transgender topics. Asking whether the BBC is reliable under the standards of this RfC is a ] <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 21:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1/2''' The ] is certainly overly biased on this topic to the point of being irrational at times, but so is ]. I have noticed that the ] has declined in quality in recent years, but I have noticed that for a lot of reliable sources since the start of the pandemic. For topics like the ], I would prefer other sources, but I wouldn't fully rule out the Telegraph. ] (]) 08:11, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''', too much instruction creep. We don't need carveouts for every single topic where a source may be subpar compared to their usual work. ] (]) 11:23, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Option 1''' Astaire, Chess, and others have thoroughly rebutted the claims on unreliablity here. Moreover, I rebutted some of these claims myself in the earlier pre-discussion to this RfC. ] ] 19:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			:It is ] - I don't think ] applies since it is drawing its data out of an API but I'd say it's a marginal source. ] (]) 16:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	=== Discussion (Telegraph on trans issues) ===
			::It certainly isn't a source that I would trust but it is frequently cited in certain articles to populate value statement parameters such as subscriber count, view count, like count etc in ]. My understanding is that ] sources shouldn't be used to verify value statements? ]] 17:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Prior discussions for reference; ], ], ], ]. The general opinion appears to be that it's marginal at best. Personally I doubt how reliable their data is, if it's available from the original source that should be used and if it's not available from the original source I wouldn't trust it. They also have 'rankings', which are worthless for anything other than the opinion of Social Blade. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== RfC: EurAsian Times ==
	* Pinging everyone who participated in ]. In order to avoid the ping limit, this will be broken up among multiple posts. I also intend to notify the following Wikiprojects: ], ], ], ]. If I missed anyone or anywhere, please feel free to notify them yourself. (Also if you did not get pinged and your name is down there, please tell me, because that probably means I exceeded the ping limit.) ] (]) 01:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	: {{u|Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist}}, {{u|Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d}}, {{u|Masem}}, {{u|LunaHasArrived}}, {{u|Hydrangeans}}, {{u|BilledMammal}}, {{u|Remsense}}, {{u|Barnards.tar.gz}}, {{u|Boynamedsue}}, {{u|Simonm223}}, {{u|Licks-rocks}}, {{u|FortunateSons}}, {{u|Aquillion}}, {{u|Silverseren}}, {{u|Black Kite}}, {{u|Chetsford}}, {{u|Snokalok}}, {{u|Spy-cicle}}, {{u|Crossroads}}, {{u|DanielRigal}}
	:{{u|Springee}}, {{u|Skyshifter}}, {{u|Fred Zepelin}}, {{u|Alaexis}}, {{u|JPxG}}, {{u|OwenBlacker}}, {{u|Colin}}, {{u|Sceptre}}, {{u|Carlp941}}, {{u|K.e.coffman}}, {{u|Cortador}}, {{u|Tristario}}, {{u|Bobfrombrockley}}, {{u|DFlhb}}, {{u|Adam Cuerden}}
	: {{u|Alanscottwalker}}, {{u|TFD}}, {{u|Void if removed}}, {{u|Chess}}, {{u|NadVolum}}, {{u|Raladic}}, {{u|Philomathes2357}}, {{u|North8000}}, {{u|Maddy from Celeste}}, {{u|Pyxis Solitary}}. ] (]) 01:50, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I don't vote here because I don't have time to study the sources about the reliability issue. But I have 2 comments to make: (a) It was said in other discussions that option 4 is technically not possible for specific issues because of the filter. So it seems to be irrelevant. b) the question of whether trans men and women are men or women is not a factual question, but rather a question of definition. Factual questions are if certain people feel they are a man or a woman, if they have a penis or a vagina, XX or XY chromosomes, etc. But the question of which of these criteria should be used to decide who should be called man or woman is not a factual question, but rather a semantic/legal/linguistic question of definitions. The meaning of the words "man" and "woman" is a social construct. And in fact many progressives think that the binary division to "man" and "woman" is wrong, and we should look at sex and gender as a spectrum. ] (]) 10:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	* This is likely going to be a continuous RFC with many editors voicing their opinions. For the sake of ever getting a close can I suggest keeping the replies to a minimum in the survey section. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 09:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			<!-- ] 23:01, 26 February 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1740610876}}
	*{{re|LokiTheLiar}} - per ], for a successful ping, you need to add new lines of text, plus signed by adding <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> at the end of the message. ''']] (])''' 09:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			{{rfc|prop|pol|rfcid=11A50DD}}
	*:Grr. Okay, I will redo the pings soon. ] (]) 11:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::: Fixing pings: {{u|Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist}}, {{u|Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d}}, {{u|Masem}}, {{u|LunaHasArrived}}, {{u|Hydrangeans}}, {{u|BilledMammal}}, {{u|Remsense}}, {{u|Barnards.tar.gz}}, {{u|Boynamedsue}}, {{u|Simonm223}}, {{u|Licks-rocks}}, {{u|FortunateSons}}, {{u|Aquillion}}, {{u|Silverseren}}, {{u|Black Kite}}, {{u|Chetsford}}, {{u|Snokalok}}, {{u|Spy-cicle}}, {{u|Crossroads}}, {{u|DanielRigal}} {{u|Springee}}, {{u|Skyshifter}}, {{u|Fred Zepelin}}, {{u|Alaexis}}, {{u|JPxG}}, ] (]) 16:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::: {{u|OwenBlacker}}, {{u|Colin}}, {{u|Sceptre}}, {{u|Carlp941}}, {{u|K.e.coffman}}, {{u|Cortador}}, {{u|Tristario}}, {{u|Bobfrombrockley}}, {{u|DFlhb}}, {{u|Adam Cuerden}} {{u|Alanscottwalker}}, {{u|TFD}}, {{u|Void if removed}}, {{u|Chess}}, {{u|NadVolum}}, {{u|Raladic}}, {{u|Philomathes2357}}, {{u|North8000}}, {{u|Maddy from Celeste}}, {{u|Pyxis Solitary}}. ] (]) 16:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			The (used to have its own article but it was apparently PRODed) is cited in several hundreds of articles, mostly pertaining to Russian military hardware and South Asian issues, but not exclusively. It was mentioned ] ] ] on this noticeboard but only on a surface level.
	Procedural question: It's less than two years since the last RfC on this where the consensus was overwhelming for option 1. Can I check if there are things that have changed since then or other reason to relitigate? Not completely clear from the arguments above. ] (]) 11:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			In light of all this, how would you rate the EurAsian Times?
	:Having watched the last full RFC, and the RFC on this specific issue that happened shortly afterwards, their were several participants who felt the RFCs were rushed into. This meant they couldn't present their arguments properly, I'm guessing this is part of the reason for the extensive discussion at ] before this RFC was started. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 11:53, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::ActivelyDisinterested is correct. The last RFC was a rush job with no RFCBEFORE, which of course meant that the status quo had a strong advantage. ] (]) 12:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Option 1: ]'''
	:Can anyone point to a ''good'' article on trans subjects in the Telegraph? Because ] can always be called to allow use of a generally unreliable source, but what are they bringing to the table that makes them a reliable source? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">''']''' <sup>(])</sup><sub>Has about 8.8% of all ].</sub></span> 18:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Option 2: ]'''
	::Here's one I grabbed today. It covers a transgender judge and her resignation. Here's another one also published today. I'm going to assert that these are good because they cover the story in a balanced way and the assertions they've made are true. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 19:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Option 3: ]'''
	:::The first one is definitely better than average for the Telegraph but it still contains minor factual inaccuracies. The one I noticed immediately is that it says that the Cass Review {{tq|warned against giving hormone drugs to under-18s and rushing children identifying as transgender into treatment they may later regret}}, when it did no such thing. It said that there was not enough evidence to support ''puberty blockers'', not hormones, and recommended that the NHS should only prescribe them to trans kids as part of a study.
			* '''Option 4: ]'''
	:::The second one is bad mostly because it's not news. It's a news article about a tweet, and not a tweet by a significant figure but JK Rowling arguing with people on Twitter again. It makes few factual claims and they're hard to fact check because they're almost all quotes or policy positions of various parties. But even reporting on this indicates significant bias. ] (]) 20:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::"I don't think this is news" is not an argument against something being RS. As for the , it recommends {{tq|The option to provide masculinising/feminising hormones from age 16 is available, but the Review recommends extreme caution. There should be a clear clinical rationale for providing hormones at this stage rather than waiting until an individual reaches 18. Every case considered for medical treatment should be discussed at a national Multi- Disciplinary Team (MDT).}} This is an entirely reasonable paraphrase of {{tq|warns against giving hormone drugs to under-18s}}, there is a clear difference between "warns against" and "forbids". And the report clearly states the evidence for the safety or otherwise of hormone therapy for teenagers is lacking.] (]) 22:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
			Thank you. '''''<span style="color:#503680">] ] ]</span>''''' 22:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC) <small>PS: it is the first time I create an RFC, I hope it is not malformed</small>
	We're not even that many days into this discussion and I already see a few of the same names popping up over and over. Echoing something which someone said in another recent discussion on this page, I would like to gently suggest to everyone that if you haven't persuaded your conversational partner after a couple back-and-forths, it seems unlikely either of you will persuade the other after ''more'' back-and-forth, and it might be more fruitful to just step back and say 'OK, we disagree on this'. (Some of the people doing this are voting option 1, some are voting option 3; this is an omnidirectional plea...) It's in your own interest, not only to have more time for other things, but to avoid getting accused by each other of bludgeoning, a thing which people in heated discussions have historically been wont to accuse each other of. ] (]) 03:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Unfortunately, some editors love to hear the sound of their own voice. There's no cure for conceit and self-importance. ] ]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:black">Ol' homo.</span> 07:34, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			===Survey (EurAsian Times)===
	*'''Comment:''' how do we feel about specific BLP coverage? Is there any past discussion about cases were the source was a) allowed to be used for BLP and b) shouldn’t be? ] (]) 20:35, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
			**'''Option 2/Do not enter to RSP''' I’d tend to evaluate depending on what the edit is, per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, and think no evaluation without that can be really valid except option2. In this case, I don't see a reason to make any RSP entry -- there doesn't seem to be a lot of RSN discussions to summarize or adjudicate and if it is in use hundreds of times then making a RSP entry at this point seems to be problematic. Cheers ] (]) 02:38, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
	*Perhaps someone here can answer how common it is that Misplaced Pages treats a source as reliable except for a particular topic. What are other examples? I ask because it seems implausible to me that the newspaper editor says to their reporters that they consistently expect the highest standards of journalism, etc., except when it comes to trans matters when you can make up any old lies and we won't complain. I don't think that there will be journalists at the Telegraph who are specialising in trans matters; they will be covering a broad range of other topics also, so it would be strange if their behaviour was inconsistent between topics. OK, I could imagine that the editor of a propaganda channel like Russia Today might say to keep things honest except as regards Russia, but the Telegraph does not have any special focus on trans matters, so why should they treat it differently? Of course it seems more likely to me that the attention on trans coverage at the Telegraph arises not from a difference in how the Telegraph deals with this topic but from the focus and viewpoints of some of Misplaced Pages's editors. It would help to show that up if it turns out that these kind of topic-restrictions are unusual for mainstream media. ] (]) 11:10, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:There are multiple sources listed at ] that have different reliability ratings for different topics, e.g. Fox News, Huff Post, Insider and several other entries that note more caution is needed in certain areas. ] (]) 11:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Thanks, that's valuable to know. I didn't spot any topic quite as specific as trans in that list, but it makes sense that some of those titles are considered unreliable about politics, for instance. ] (]) 16:18, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Do we have any precedent for designating a source with different reliability for something as narrow as "trans issues" though? I am wondering if this is a precedent we want to set. ] (]) 08:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::I suppose it depends in part whether you regard "trans issues" as narrow, but to my mind it is a precedent worth setting. If a sources is reliable or unreliable only in a narrow area we should (not) be using in that specific area as this will bring the greatest benefit to the encyclopaedia. ] (]) 08:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::I agree with Thryduulf. It's not even that narrow even though it's the narrowest topic so far. ] (]) 11:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I'm not even sure it is the narrowest. Cato Institute's listing at RFP says (in part) {{tpq|Some editors consider the Cato Institute an authoritative source on ]. There is no consensus on whether it is generally reliable on other topics.}} and that's from 2015. ] (]) 12:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	*More than once in Option 1 !votes there has been a claim that Option 3/4 !votes amount to requiring RSes to hold a certain 'political position' or 'political opinion'. However, this misrepresents many Option 3/4 !votes, which express not concern about support/opposition for X or Y law, or A or B party (which would be political positions) but instead about inaccuracies, misinformation, and deviation from academic consensus about trans existence and experiences (i.&nbsple., matters pertaining to reliability, accuracy, etc.). The claim by various Option 1 !votes that the Telegraph merely has a POV or bias is troubling because it reduces information to opinion, as if academic interpretations in science, sociology, and more have only as much weight as an opinion about, say, whether Kirk or Spock is the better character.{{pb}}In any case, I encourage the closer to remember that ] (and not necessarily their length either). ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 19:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Many support Chess and Void's rebuttals of claimed informational inaccuracies, which don't appear to have been addressed.<br />Additionally, a critical contention point is whether misgendering counts as a POV or informational inaccuracy. Most non-option-3 !voters believe that it's the former. ] (]) 19:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::{{tq|which don't appear to have been addressed}}: They have been; see Loki's post beginning {{tq|I think that this response,}} {{tq|despite being long}} etc. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 20:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::That's debatable; much of that reply lacks substance. Of the five points they make in that comment only the first addresses reliability rather than bias, and that point is contradictory and makes little sense.
	*:::In that point they argue that the "student identifies as a cat" story is akin to the litter box hoax because the litter box hoax doesn't solely relate to litter boxes but accommodations for ] generally. Even if we set aside the debate about whether reprimanding students for refusing to accept an individual identifying as a cat is an accommodation, that aspect isn't actually in dispute - it's an accepted fact that that the students were reprimanded by the teacher for this.
	*:::What is disputed is whether:
	*:::*A student identified as a cat
	*:::*The Telegraph claimed that a student identified as a cat
	*:::It appears, although isn't conclusive, that no student identified as a cat (Rye College has denied it, but the Ofsted report was silent on that question). However, the belief that the Telegraph claimed that a student identified as a cat is based on a misunderstanding of presuppositions; see ]. ] (]) 20:30, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::And either way, even if they did get that wrong, I don't think that's enough. Plus Chess replied to it anyway. ] (]) 21:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::I have found Chess—who continues to bloat the survey section rather than use the discussion section—unconvincing, so we seem to disagree and that may have to be that for now. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 01:52, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::{{tq|Additionally, a critical contention point is whether misgendering counts as a POV or informational inaccuracy.}}
	*::Since it has been raised by a few editors I wanted to quickly address this point. Individuals have both gender and sex and on a purely factual basis it is equally correct to refer to an individual by either. This means that misgendering a transgender individual isn't a factual inaccuracy, but a choice to use sex rather than gender. Of course on a moral basis gender should be used - but that isn't relevant to source reliability.
	*::Further, it appears that the Telegraph generally doesn't misgender individuals, . When they do it typically seems to be under exceptional circumstances, such as in where clinical advice was to not affirm a teenager's gender. Usually, we would consider a source deciding that it knows better than an individuals treating medical professional to be evidence of unreliability; it would be unreasonable and unjustifiable for us to decide that the opposite is true in this case. ] (]) 02:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::First, this is pretty clearly sophistry. Pronouns are not a reference to biology and this is obvious every time you don't look in someone's pants before you refer to them.
	*:::Second, if you insist on continuing to make this argument: even the sex of a trans woman is not unambiguously male, assuming you're talking about an actual biological state and not essentialist ideology masquerading as biology. A trans woman could have a female-typical hormonal system (and therefore female secondary sex characteristics like breasts, softer skin, and lower upper body strength), a vagina, and no ability to grow facial hair or produce sperm. Not all trans women do, of course, and no trans woman has female-typical chromosomes, but surely you see why this makes arguments that the Telegraph is just going by biology pretty silly.
	*:::(I agree the Telegraph doesn't always misgender individuals, but it does much more often than other similar sources.) ] (]) 04:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::@], you say "...and no trans woman has male-typical chromosomes". Can you clarify or elaborate on that? ] (]) 04:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::Typo. ] (]) 05:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Unless you're saying that trans women aren't biologically male, then your argument seems based on our POV rather than on factual inaccuracy. ] (]) 04:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::: I am in fact saying that. Trans women are neither unambiguously biologically male nor unambiguously biologically female. If you were a doctor evaluating a patient for a condition where sex was medically relevant, and your patient was a trans woman, you would have to ask them about their specific history of hormones and procedures, and then make a decision based on what specific condition you're thinking of. ] (]) 05:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::: While some academics do hold the position that human sex is mutable, looking at recent scholarly articles they are still in the minority. We can't consider a source unreliable on the basis that they hold a mainstream view. ] (]) 06:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::This is absurd. If pronouns aren’t attached to sex, then there is no reason we should not, as a society, move to “they” exclusively, rather than “he” and “she. In fact, many languages do that - they do not have different pronouns and simply have one “third person pronoun”. But English does not - we have two. By saying that they’re not based on sex, that’s simply absurd - the concept of “gender” was equivalent to sex for the vast majority of history, including in the pre-english languages that formed these dual pronouns.
	*::::Let me be clear - I support transgender rights more than a lot of people in my country. But it is absolutely not beneficial to that cause to try and make claims like “pronouns aren’t sex, they’re gender”, especially when a significant minority (if not majority) do recognize that historically, they were because of sex. Regardless, Misplaced Pages is not the place to make these kind of arguments - ]. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (]/]) 18:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::Pronouns aren't sex, they're gender. Drag queens usually use "she" pronouns, for one, and for two if you think they're about sex then you should be looking in the pants or testing the chromosomes of random people on the bus. ] (]) 01:22, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I would like to add that the "clinical advice" your saying the telegraph followed by misgendering a child is in fact conversion therapy as discussed above. ] (]) 15:19, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Do you have reason to believe that beyond {{diff2|1223108818|a comment}} by ], who claimed that the source was referring to conversion therapy because it used the term "watchful waiting", which they said was invented by an American-Canadian fringe advocate of conversion therapy?
	*::::If not, you should know they were mistaken. It was developed at one of the largest transgender clinics and research institutes in the world, the ] in the Netherlands, and is a {{tq|highly respected model of care worldwide}}.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Ehrensaft |first1=Diane |title=Gender nonconforming youth: current perspectives |journal=Adolescent Health, Medicine and Therapeutics |date=25 May 2017 |volume=8 |pages=57–67 |doi=10.2147/AHMT.S110859 |doi-access=free|pmid=28579848 |pmc=5448699 }}</ref>
	*::::The terminology is also , with most being highly supportive of it. There is no reason to believe that the child was being put through conversion therapy, or that the Telegraph was doing anything other than following medical guidance aligned with mainstream practices when they referred to them as a "she".
	*::::This is emblematic of the issue with this RfC; the issues raised about the source are not ones of reliability but of disagreement with their POV. This is also leading me to start questioning the notion that the source is notably biased; if examples like this are representative of the other arguments presented for bias then they are in fact solidly mainstream. ] (]) 19:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::As the child in question is a teenager (near the start of the process) he has almost certainly started through puberty. The watchful waiting model says that if these issues persist into the onset of puberty to intervene. Whereas conversion therapists use watchful waiting as a kind filibuster tactic, the ignoring of the actual model and doing anything to delay any kind of transition points towards conversion therapy rather than actual good care. ] (]) 20:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::Sorry when I say "near the start of the process" above I mean near the start of the article (around 2019). Sorry for any ambiguity ] (]) 20:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Question''' If this RfC results in a consensus of GREL, do we support adding a note to prefer other sources, per e.g. ]? I'm assuming the closer will note that many agree that the Telegraph is biased against trans issues. ] (]) 19:30, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:I’m not an expert on MEDRS, but shouldn’t this be excluded anyway, regardless which mainstream newspaper published it? ] (]) 19:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Yes, it would be a violation of MEDRS to attempt to use a newspaper/other non-medical source to represent the results of a study. That said, I haven’t looked at this specific link (it doesn’t work well on mobile) to see if the link Aaron has provided is truly an “egregiously misleading presentation”. If it is, it could be considered in determining their overall reliability. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (]/]) 19:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::It’s from @] at 16:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 19:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::So basically, in a news article, they have a mother raise concerns about breast binders to a school citing a certain study. They follow up the sentence with "97% who use experience health problems" to imply that her concern is valid, while the 97% figure cited includes all problems, such as "itchiness", regardless of severity. ] (]) 19:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::, I'm not convinced the Telegraph article is a problem. While sources like The Telegraph aren't reliable on medical topics anyway per ], what we would expect from a reliable source in that topic area is they accurately reflect the source without distorting it with their own contributions, even when they think those contributions are self-evident. In this case, the source says that {{tq|97% reported at least one of 28 negative outcomes attributed to binding}} and doesn't consider the severity of the outcomes; we can't expect the Telegraph to go beyond that.
	*::::But even if they had, the impact would have been minimal, as excluding itchiness would likely have only changed the headline number from >97% to >95%. The difference is insignificant, and in my opinion couldn't amount to {{tq|egregiously misleading presentation}}. ] (]) 20:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::I would not call that “egregiously misleading presentation”. Itchiness is a medical problem if it occurs post medical intervention. Is it slightly misleading in that it doesn’t specify that it’s any health problem including minor ones? I disagree it’s misleading at all, but I’ll concede it’s a small amount of misleading based on that. But it’s not egregious. Non-severe medical problems are still medical problems. And acting like they aren’t is simply a representation of POV pushing - patients have the right to informed consent and WP should not sugar coat information regarding the sequelae of treatments. If 97% of people experience at least some form of small problem (or big problem) from it, that’s a valid statistic to present in WP. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (]/]) 20:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::I think it's misleading because when I think of health problem, I'd think of consistent pain (especially after now wearing it) or nausea etc, not "has some pain whilst wearing" or whatever. From a medical study it is important to consider these it's just when used in general speak it can be misleading. If I said I was too warm because I wore a fleece, would people say that's a health problem. ] (]) 20:58, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::{{tqb|Itchiness is a medical problem if it occurs post medical intervention.}}{{tq|Survey participants were asked ‘Have you experienced any of the following health problems and attribute them to binding?’ and selected yes or no for each outcome.}} ] (]) 00:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::{{ec}} MEDRS is only relevant to medical claims, but not everything related to medicine is a medical claim. While the specific comment linked does reference a medical claim, not everything from the cited article would be.
	*::Regarding {{tpq|I'm assuming the closer will note that many agree that the Telegraph is biased against trans issues.}} any close or RSP summary that doesn't, at minimum, mention the large number of editors who believe that it is biased with regards transgender topics is not one that accurately reflects this discussion. I know I'm biased, but I genuinely can't see how a finding of option 1 without qualification could be arrived at. ] (]) 19:44, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::It is, but it's odd for this. Would one consider the statement "most people who were high heels find them painful" a medical statement, would talking about changing pronouns in secondary schools count (after all social transition can be a thing). These 'soft' medical claims are an interesting area and I'm not sure where I would put them personally and these kind of things the telegraph do seem to be unreliable for. ] (]) 20:28, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::By my reading of ], technically speaking "most people who wear high heels find them painful" would definitely be a statement covered by ], and arguably almost anything about trans people might be covered due to the presence of ] in the DSM.
	*:::However, needless to say this is not how most editors interpret this in actual practice, and I think if you tried to push it you'd get a lot of pushback. ] (]) 01:42, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Wasn't certain where to put this but more evidence on only platforming one side comes from their recent coverage of the general election. Both the conservatives and Labour have released their manifestos and the telegraph covered their positions on conversion therapy and respectively. Notable is the only groups asked for comment are Sex matters, Christian Concern and LGB alliance. All these groups advocate for no further conversion therapy ban. The only description on any of these groups is that Sex Matters has a chief of advocacy and one of sex matters or Christian concern is a charity. The argument being made here isn't that a rs shouldn't platform these people, it's that the telegraph is '''Only'''platforming this side. ] (]) 20:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::But are they platforming this one side with fact checking and accuracy? If so, then reliability isn’t the issue. ] (]) 20:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I mean they uncritically platform the view that a supposed ban would be harmful (brave coming from Helen Joyce who said that happily transitioned people are a huge problem for a sane world). She also says that most children convinced of an opposite sex identity grow out of it during puberty, this is just flatly untrue and based off of research considering any gender nonconformity as gender dysphoria. ] (]) 21:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::Also even if you think they are fact checking and accurate, WP:due becomes a huge issue because suddenly on the matter of conversion therapy: sex matters, Christian concern and LGB alliance are more important than anyone with actual qualifications. ] (]) 21:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::] is not a standard we hold sources to, it's a standard we hold ourselves to when summarizing reliable sources. That's because ''we'' are not supposed to decide what is due, we are supposed to defer to what the sources see as important opinions. You're interpreting ] in reverse, which is that you get to decide what opinions are important, and then judge what sources are reliable based on who they platform. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 04:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::You're right in terms of including stuff in an article. I should have probably formulated this better. When we use the telegraph as a rs to decide due, we now have this scenario where the above people are the important opinions. This is the consequence of the telegraph being an rs. ] (]) 11:48, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::Like it or not, the Telegraph does represent the opinion of a sizable group of people. ] (]) 15:53, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::Nobody is arguing to exclude that opinion - there are plenty of other sources that represent it in a manner that is not misleading to the point that multiple independent sources question its reliability. ] (]) 17:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::::Luna said {{tq|When we use the telegraph as a rs to decide due, we now have this scenario where the above people are the important opinions.}}, implying that these opinions shouldn't have due weight and should be excluded. ] (]) 20:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::::::::It's quite the opposite, according to the telegraph all other opinions need not being mentioned (except maybe a token mention that they exist). So only these opinions would be due (otherwise the others would have been included) ] (]) 20:40, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::::::::A POV can never be excluded by the INCLUSION of a source. A POV can only be excluded by the EXclusion of a source. This is because wp:due is never determined from using only one source, but by using ALL rs collectively. The argument you're making would mean we'd have to declare Pink News unrel too, since they also exclude views, but in the other direction. ] (]) 21:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Well, judging by the placement of their comment, I think they're adding to the argument to add a note to prefer other sources due to bias. ] (]) 23:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Your sources don't actually support your claim. In the first article, The Telegraph quotes Labour (a political party and a group advocating for a conversion therapy ban) at the end:
	*::{{tqb|Anneliese Dodds, the Labour chairman, said on Wednesday: "After six years of broken promises, the Conservatives have dropped their commitment to ban so-called conversion therapy. This is a craven failure to outlaw abusive and harmful practices. Labour will ban conversion practices outright."}}
	*::In the second article, the newspaper provides the entire manifesto of the ] and quote them throughout. I suppose you'll say The Telegraph should've quoted a third-party group that isn't a political party, so I'll ask, why isn't quoting Labour enough to satisfy the need to provide both sides? The Telegraph certainly biased in ''how much'' space they allocate to gender-critical activists but their articles do not entirely exclude views contrary to such. <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 05:03, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::I don't think you hear the opposing view, just that there is an opposing view. I'd also disagree with throughout for the labour article (it's in one place but it is a short article). ] (]) 11:29, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::OK, so your claim isn't that The Telegraph doesn't include any mention of opposing views, it's that they don't provide as much emphasis on them as they should? <span class="nowrap">] (]) <small>(please ] me on reply)</small></span> 18:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::They treat it the same way we would treat a fringe view, mention it exists and nothing more. They've gotten 3 non experts and treated them like experts (no mention of all 3 groups being advocacy groups, just that sex matters has a chief of advocacy). I think treating clearly non fringe views as fringe and clear members of advocacy groups as potential experts is worrying. ] (]) 19:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			===Discussion (EurAsian Times)===
	===References===
			* Previous discussions at ] (2024) ] (2023), and ] (2022). It looks like there's already consensus that it's unreliable and an RfC is not necessary. ] (]) 00:51, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{Reflist-talk}}
			*:Yes, there is already strong consensus for its general unreliability (with just one dissenting editor in all of those discussions). I guess the only question is whether it should be deprecated, given its quite frequent use ] (]) 10:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I agree that most opinions expressed about it were negative, but it felt a bit like shaky ground to be able to know if it could still be used for some specific things, be treated as generally unreliable, or to actually deprecate. That is why I wanted clarification before potentially going on a hunt. Sorry if an RfC was overkill for this one, but I figured that since it is used quite a lot it could be good to clarify. '''''<span style="color:#503680">] ] ]</span>''''' 10:34, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			== flightconnections.com ==
	== Heads up re Washington Post ==
			I wonder if flightconnections.com is a reliable source. Examples of it use are on and . In both cases ] asks for {{tq|airlines and destination tables may only be included in articles when independent, reliable, secondary sources demonstrate they meet ]}}. I have doubt if flightconnections qualifies as reliable. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">]&nbsp;]</span> 02:18, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	- current EIC is departing and being replaced by an editor from the WSJ through the end of the year, and then to a new EIC that is also going to oversee a division dedicated to more on-the-spot reporting including use of video and AI supported stories.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>No immediate red flags, but one to keep on eye on as these transitions occur.<span id="Masem:1717384137563:WikipediaFTTCLNReliable_sources/Noticeboard" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;] (]) 03:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)</span>
	:I agree, worth keeping an eye on.
	:Would publishing "AI supported stories" affect your assessment of a source's reliability, or would your assessment remain unaffected unless the AI supported stories were of poor quality? ] (]) 03:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::My main issue with "AI supported" stories is whether that just means they used AI to write the structure of the article, but all the facts and quotes in it were still real and verified by the editors before and after or...if they just gave an AI some prompts and had it write an article wholesale with minimal checking. Those are two very different scenarios. ]]<sup>]</sup> 03:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Okay seriously can someone make a '' tag'' or something.] (]) 03:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Because I’m of the view AI generated sources aren’t very good.] (]) 04:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::As pointed out by Silverseren above, if by "AI generated stories" they mean that they use AI to craft a struture but a human editor validates facts and edits to be readable, that's not a problem. If they just publish what ChatGPL spits out without validation or editing care, that's an issue. Its impossible to tell from this change what WaPost will actually do, but its worthwhile to watch out for.<span id="Masem:1717387717189:WikipediaFTTCLNReliable_sources/Noticeboard" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;] (]) 04:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)</span>
	::::I'm reminded of Tesla ], where it's OK so long as the driver has their hands on the wheel. What could go wrong? Or tools on Misplaced Pages where users initiate bots to process 500 articles that make mistakes and users are watching and fixing. What could go wrong? -- ]] 14:32, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Most bots do a perfectly fine job if they’re put in charge of something hard to get wrong. They make mistakes, but so do humans. ] (]) 09:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Their next editor was announced as ] (]) 04:56, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:: ] (]) 14:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
			:I can't find any information about who runs the site or where it gets it's information from. There are quite a few articles promoting it or about how to use it, but that is unsurprising as it operates an affiliate programme. From a Google book search it has some extremely limited USEBYOTHERS (note several of the results are not reliable sources), but not enough to be meaningful. I couldn't get any useful results from Google Scholar. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 15:17, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Dani Cavallaro ==
			:I do see it as reliable. They are from one of the large brokers (likely either Cirium or OAG, I wish they said who) and simply providing a wrapper to explore that data, and selling ads and subscriptions to pay for the extremely expensive subscription the brokers charge. ] (]) 19:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It can work at least as a starting point. It lists both charter and regularly scheduled flights. You can find the flight number of a given route and then cross-reference it on another source as well. --] (]) 22:02, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Pegging ==
	Regarding author ], there has been discussion recently about Cavallaro being a reliable source or not. See links to discussions:
	*{{sectionlink|Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Archive 76#Dani Cavallaro}} (October 2023)
	*{{sectionlink|Talk:Angel's Egg#Focus shift: Dani Cavallaro}} (June 2024)
	*] (June 2024)
	*
	Regarding ''Angel's Egg'', there appears to be a local consensus not to cite Cavallaro. If Cavallaro is questionable as an author, then there should be a wider consensus about whether or not to cite them. They are cited multiple times elsewhere on Misplaced Pages as shown in the search results .
			At this point, after educating people about pegging for the last 14 years, I do indeed qualify as an expert. I am the go-to person for information about pegging in the sex education world.
	Does the author meet ], judging from their publications, those who have cited them, those who have critiqued their works (positively or negatively), and the criticism leveled against them? (On the last point, should criticism be from reliable sources? Are the criticism pieces reliable to consider here?)
			perhaps be reviewed? I am the only sex educator I know of who ''specializes'' in pegging. I have taught countless classes since 2012 (in person and over Zoom) for beginners, equipment, and advanced pegging, and written many, many articles about pegging as well. Were they published in magazines or on websites that made me edit the crap out of what I'd written until it lost its meaning? No. Wouldn't play that game because the message was too important to me, and because they wanted free material.
	Thanks, ]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) <sup>(])</sup> 17:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Thanks for opening this discussion; the reliability of this author has been something I've considered for a while, and was reminded of when ] brought it up again at '']''{{'s}} ]. There are {{URL|1=https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=%22Dani+Cavallaro%22|2=multiple academic reviews}} of her work which I believe are a good place to start when weighing opinions on her writing. I'm quite busy off-wiki right now, but should have a chance to look through them in more detail next week. I don't think consideration of the blog posts written about her would be appropriate in this discussion. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 19:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Thanks for opening this. The website / blog in question () published a two-part critical about Carallaro in 2014. Looking at the site, it does appear to be written by scholars for scholars and, according to their , is used as a resource by multiple universities. It would therefore appear to satisfy ] if we only consider reviews by reliable sources when evaluating Carallaro. ] (]) 20:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::What about the last sentence of ]? ''"'''Never''' use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer."'' While it's not being used as a third-party source within an article, it seems to be used as one to evaluate this person. Unless I'm not reading it right? I guess I am in the mindset of using agreed-upon reliable sources to qualify or disqualify a source. ]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) <sup>(])</sup> 20:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::It's also worth noting that Mikhail Koulikov, who writes the ''Anime and Manga Studies'' blog, is not an anime and and manga expert, but earned a master's in library science<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.animemangastudies.com/about/about-us/ |title=About Us |work=Anime and Manga Studies |date=2 March 2014 |access-date=2024-06-04}}</ref> and is apparently employed as an analyst at a law firm.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=f29fp58AAAAJ&hl=en |title=Mikhail Koulikov |publisher=Google Scholar |access-date=2024-06-04}}</ref> While he has published some academic work on anime and manga, they're mixed in with work on several other topics. I don't believe this website is a reliable source in general, and should not be used to assess the reliability of Cavallaro's work. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 21:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:<small>Notified ]. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 23:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)</small>
	:In blog post PhD and university lecturer Jacqueline Ristola dismisses Carallaro's work as "rudimentary", "hidden under the shambles of academic jargon", and accuses her of plagiarism, including '''rephrasing portions of Misplaced Pages entries'''. Ristola also praises the post from Anime and Manga Studies. Again, this is just a blog post from a subject-matter expert. ] (]) 23:17, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::The plagiarism point was brought up by {{URL|1=https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13598427-clamp-in-context|2=a GoodReads commenter}}. The Misplaced Pages text was added to the ] article in ] in May 2010. ''CLAMP in Context'' (]: 978-0-7864-6954-3) was published in January 2012, and I confirmed the excerpt the commenter mentions is indeed in the book. This is pretty damning evidence of close paraphrasing from Misplaced Pages. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 23:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Indeed, I think we are done here. I would support formal ] due to the high risk of ] and other copyright violations. ] (]) 23:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::I'd like to get input from RSN regulars (if there is such thing). It seems like a major step to strip all references to one author out of Misplaced Pages completely. ]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) <sup>(])</sup> 00:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::I think that full deprecation might be jumping the gun a little since this discussion is not an RfC, nor is it exactly well-attended. However, I agree that a deep dive of her work is likely unnecessary to come to a consensus on its reliability. The plagiarism above proves even (seemingly) uncontroversial factual statements cannot be relied upon, and {{URL|1=https://people.uwe.ac.uk/Person/MarkBould|2=Mark Bould}}'s comments on her 2000 book ''Cyberpunk and Cyberculture'' ("disturbingly dishonest", "more interested in neatly patterning synopses of assessments and investigations made by other critics than in conducting its own"<ref>{{Cite journal |title=A Half-Baked Hypertext |journal=Science Fiction Studies |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/4240933 |last=Bould |first=Mark |date=2000 |issue=3 |volume=27 |pages=520–522 |jstor=4240933}}</ref>) indicate that her analyses aren't much better. I'm in favor of designating her bibliography as '''generally unreliable''', discouraging editors from adding citations and phasing out existing ones where applicable. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 01:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I love ]'s films, so I wanted to find more sources, and was delighted someone had written a full print book on his films so I began to read it. After a few chapters, I found the book laden with jargon and convoluted writing which didn't sit right. I did some searching, and indeed other people were raising questions as to who this person was, whether they were qualified to write at all, and failing to find even basic biographical information (the most we can get is 2 sentences on a publisher website). One major critique is that she mostly , and yes, indeed I double checked her references and it was true then it all clicked. This alone is enough to not use her books, as the sources she cites would never be considered a reliable to begin with, and would never be acceptable in an academic book.
	:Taken together, the publisher and author have not proven that they are experts to begin with (as the burden lies with them), and I would support a complete ban. I consider her works low quality and removed them from the Oshii articles that I could find, but she's cited in other pages as well. ] (]) 01:26, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Seems like we have a consensus that her bibliography is at least generally unreliable. If there's no objection, I'll add a note to ] and start tagging existing references with {{tl|Unreliable source}}. ] (]) 17:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I've gone ahead and done that, and I've gone through the first 40 or so articles in ], cleaning up where possible and tagging with {{tl|Unreliable sources}} where not. I'd appreciate the help of other discussion participants as there are a lot of them to get through. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 21:09, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::I would actually really appreciate it if work to replace the sources was done. In one case she provided a reference for an interview done in 2007, I could try to directly cite that with help finding the book or w/e. - ] (]) 21:16, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::Is this on a Studio Ghibli–related article? I currently have access to a couple of her books and can help with some of that work. I'm going to be doing a lot of that anyways for some of my project articles. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 21:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
	:The more you examine, the worst it gets. She cites and quotes Misplaced Pages several times in '''' which is a huge problem as well. accuses her of plagurizing online sources that she relies upon. says her work is "unreadable" with "purple prose" while citing online reviews as if they were scholarship.
	:You see the same critiques over and over again with anyone who has read her work with a critical eye. Combined with no confirmed biographical background (not even confirmed to have any degree at all), a complete ban as unreliable is warranted as this isn't an isolated case with one or two books but a trend of consistent poor scholarship with her work. How does this happen? It just flies under the radar and only a few people are interested enough to dig deeper.
	:For English language sources on older anime series, it can be difficult, but we should still strive to improve the sourcing for these kind of articles. ] (]) 17:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Thanks for sharing those links. There seems to be general agreement in this discussion that all citations to her work on Misplaced Pages are to be replaced or removed; a few of us have gotten started on that process already, and I'd appreciate your help with tagging or cleaning up the list of articles ]. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 17:47, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::She also wrote books on fine art as well as literature, medieval history, feminist thought, and Japanese animation? She has written way too many books, way too quickly, on way too many topics to be an expert on all these unrelated topics.
	:::Some of the citations that use her books are minor, or just cite her analysis, but a few pages she's used extensively and would require major re-writes including several GA articles. For better sources I made a topic on this: ] ] (]) 21:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Hello there. I'm not an expert. Just here to say that in the case of ''Neon Genesis Evangelion'' Dani Cavallaro appears to me as a good source. Nothing spectacular, but honestly I never in my 10-years-long experience of writing here ''about NGE'' seen an error in her analysis, a plagiarism or inaccurancies. I want to be clear: I do not feel competent enought here to express a strong favorable opinion on her as a RS ''for now'', but at least in basically the only field I work here on Misplaced Pages - again, NGE - I read her books on the arguments literally thousands of times, and her presentations of the series, the authors interviews and views, Japanese context, production notes and so on are accurate. Far, far more than your average Academic from ''Mechademia''. Academics on ''Evangelion'' are sometimes alienated and without common sense: they do everything but checking the actual sources like Anno, Tsurumaki interviews, ''Evangelion Chronicle'' or even the basic ''Red Cross Book'', but prefer to mention other academics instead of actually study the series, its context and the interviews of the authors. I strongly and firmly defend Cavallaro at least on this series. ] (]) 20:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Hey ], unfortunately it's going to take quite a bit of proof of any of her good work on ''Evanglion''-related topics to overturn the severe issues presented by other editors in this discussion; your word on her writing is not sufficient. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 21:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Unreliable doesn't necessarily mean always wrong, just that it's academically sloppy and not to the level of a source we should be citing. It leads to issues where you can't validate information she's presented, even if it's possibly correct. Just two examples. On ] her book is cited for a Miyzaki quote, and checking her book, she sites a fan webpage. Said page does not explain where it came from, who translated it or when which means I cannot verify any of it. It means that small errors become impossible to cross reference and weed out over time. These fan sites shouldn't be cited on Misplaced Pages, and someone who cites them being used for a source also shouldn't be cited. It's effectively just self-published fan source laundering where these sources get "washed" and look more respectable. ] (]) 22:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
	::{{u|TeenAngels1234}} reverted my Cavallaro removals and tags in NGE-related articles. Like {{u|TechnoSquirrel69}}, I also have to insist on her unreliability on all subjects, your subjective good experiences notwithstanding. ] (]) 06:54, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::"Subjective good experiences" is a very misleading, if not false, statement. ''Limited'' and ''very good'' - to use an euphemism - experience, maybe: I write just on NGE, guys, so I can not speak for Ghibli or other works Cavallaro wrote about as I said, sorry. I'm agnostic on them, at least for now. So, yeah, ''limited'', but not subjective: her thousands of pages on NGE are ''extraordinarly'' good, informative and accurate, especially compared to other academics. It's not a matter that Cavallo's works are just vaguely OK and enough accurate. I do not mention the first source I find on the matter, and I think anybody that ever read a NGE article I contributed to can see I'm ''very'' selective on the sources. Cavallaro has a 20-pages NGE-related chapter in her book ''Anime Intersections'' as well. I can mention some example to prove my point. What kind of evidence should I give? BTW. @] and Charcoal feather: you have ''all the right'' to express your concerns. You are ''far'', far more into Misplaced Pages than me probably. I think I kept all the templates on the NGE articles: it's your right to express doubts and discuss here on Cavallaro, sorry if I could have looked aggressive or too drastic. ''Mea culpa'', sincerely. I just re-inserted Cavallaro notes ''for now'', since, again, I'm not the Wikipedian who uses the first source, and if I used Cavallaro until now there's a reason. I'm not gonna start a Crusade on her; if the consensus is that ''all'' the references have to be removed ''sine qua non'', I will remove it. Most of the articles have 1, 2 or 3 notes from Cavallaro books at most, you know, it's not a big deal. For now, I just want to keep your legitimate templates. What evidence you want? I have to quote some passages from her books and reviews on the matter as well? ] (]) 09:24, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::@]: Like I mentioned earlier, you need to show how "{{tq|1=her thousands of pages on ''NGE'' are {{em|extraordinarly}} good}}" (emphasis original), not just that you believe it to be the case. Do other academics who publish on the subject acknowledge Cavallaro as a high-quality writer on ''Evangelion''-related works? If so, why? Should that evidence exist — and I don't think it does — we would still have to weigh those opinions against the demonstrable risk of coming up against text containing copyright violations and verifiably false or misleading information. Please also note that continuing to revert other editors removing citations to her work may be viewed as ], as you are doing so in contravention of an established consensus. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 14:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::@] Once someone has shown that they violate basic standard rules of scholarship, they can't be trusted. The kind of behavior outlined above would get her into serious academic problems if she did this for under-graduate essays for example and that kind of behavior should not be tolerated for professional writers either. Her books appear to be written with speed in mind so that she can pump them out quickly, rather than on quality, and to pick niche topics that few others have written about like anime, ], or ].
	:::::Since she's been heavily cited on some pages and it means those pages will require heavy amounts of re-writing but it's ultimately for the best. Also I think there's a consistent pattern of poor quality sourcing that plagues many anime/manga articles. This would be the first step towards rectifying that issue. ] (]) 20:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::These 4chan-like greentexts are cringe. Anyways.
	::::::@] Your answer is meaningless. ]. Consensus can change. I'm now part of discussion, which I did not read previously. I respected you, since I did not revert everything and kept the templates; you have to equally respect me now that I'm discussing here and do not insinuate I'm editwarring. I am now part of the new eventual consensus.
	::::::During the years Cavallaro looked to me as a respectable author regarding NGE. I'm gonna just briefly analyise just her ''Anime Intersection'' NGE chapter doing a comparison with sources that Wikipedians listed as Reliable Sources for a reason. INB4: thanks, I know that a comparison ''per sé'' does not means much, but it's an argument bigger than its singular parts and if you will see just the singular part and not the general scheme here you are missing the point. For example, she is one of the few writers to mention the fact that Anno wanted to do an OVA before the movies ''Death and Rebirth'' and ''End'' (''Anime Intersections'', p. 54). The first time I read, since no Misplaced Pages article or ANN news or Western academic ever mentioned this, I was confused. But it is something that , a person whose claims are ignored by every "respectable" academic and source listed in ], discussed in his commentary. Her book was published in 2007, a time in which, as you can see from EvaGeeks, people believed that Evas were created after the Barons of Hell, but she actually mentions the actual inspirations of Yamashita (ibidem, p. 57). She is the only one English writer who mentions and seems to know ''Der Mond'', ''Die Sterne'' (p. 61), even the ''Groundworks of Evangelion'' and the ''Filmbooks'' (p. 57), when people like Napier in her books mentioned in the ] says that the series was released ''in 1997''. While Napier in ''Science Fiction Studies'' said that ''Evangelion'' presents a “Gnostic notion of apocalypse” (p. 425, like what?) and the otherwise useful ''Mechademia'' – listed in WP:A&M/I - has a weird analysis about Zoe-Lilith-Eva Gnostic triad and its impact on the series (?) and other ''supercazzole'', to use an appropriate Italian term for academic bullshits, she in 2007 was one of the few academics who touched grass and actually mentioned Tsurumaki comments on religious symbolism (''ibidem'', pp. 57-59). She is one of the rare academics to mention, even if briefly and quite vaguely, Aum Shinrikyo, which proved, as said by the unknown – by academics – Azuma, as an enormous influence on NGE. In the same page at least she mentioned Azuma and the possible inspiration by Godard. Her productions note on 3D use and Production IG involvement (p. 64) at least shows that she probably read the theatrical pamphlets, maybe even other Oguro materials: in any case, this proved that she ''at least with NGE'' did not write books with speed in mind "so that she can pump them out quickly". I bet my entire existence that ''Mechademia'' academics, Napier or Broderick or whoever you want do not even know what Ombinus Japan (p. 68) is. She is the only Western academic as far as I know who knows at least who Otsuki is and quotes his interviews (p. 67). And I'm mentioning just one of the Achille's heels of Western academics: the inability to actual study the series ''in its context'' and at least have a vague idea of who the author actually is or wanted. Something that, trust me, other "Reliable Sources" do not have. BTW. Nothing of what I mentioned was on Misplaced Pages in 2007: not even in the , or the - see the oldids. Nor in other websites of NGE - not in EvaMonkeys, not in EvaOtakus, nothing in Japanese websites as well. Far from being the most reliable source on NGE, her prose is not exactly the best and she is more like a reporter than an analyst who theorizes things on the series, I think she's a respectable source for NGE.
	::::::For a period I thought she was not so respectable because she briefly mentions in her ''The Art of Studio Gainax'' chapter on NGE series the "]" to Anno, which were considered a myth by myself until Anno actually mentioned them in the official production documentary on the last ''Rebuild'' installment and I read Oguro materials - like the Japanese ''Eva Tomo no Kai''. When that documentary was released on Amazon Prime, even ''the only possible error'' that I thought she mentioned proved right. Now. I'm not exactly sure she actually read the ''Eva Tomo no Kai'', but mention me just ''one'' academic before 2020orsomething that did all of this, with all the knowledge of NGE production and not academics ''supercazzole'', and I bet I'm gonna do a pilgrimage to Pompeii Virgin Mary. ] (]) 21:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::You're writing long winded replies while ignoring the key issues. In ''The Art of Studio Gainax'' she cites Misplaced Pages on including the ] page which brings up issues of ] which specifically says "''Also, do not use websites mirroring Misplaced Pages content or publications relying on material from Misplaced Pages as sources.''" She also uses heavy amount of self-published anime fan sites as sources, which is also a major issue. ] (]) 22:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::....OK. So, compliments, you are missing my point. An annoying answer - you probably can not perceive it - especially considering I just actually answered to your comment: her chapters ''on NGE'' are not "written with speed in mind so that she can pump them out quickly, rather than on quality", as I showed you. I repeat: at least ''on NGE''. So I proved you wrong. Anyway. I have now ''Anime Intersection'' on my desk, and ''at least'' regarding NGE she's just advising to read it as "potential companions of this study", but not using it as a source (p. 56). She basically list Misplaced Pages and other websites in her bibliography as such: "potential companions of this study". I had the full ''The Art of Studio Gainax'', but not now, but it looks to me - I can be wrong - that at least one of the four instances you mentioned is the same (p. 226), and ''idem'' for the URL to the Misplaced Pages "mindfuck" page - she's possibly linking an article just to help the readers to see what a mindfuck is and other uses of this technique. Regarding the ''Rebuild'' part: yes, she mentions Misplaced Pages among other things. My point is: are you sure you gonna literally delete every helpful and accurate analyisis from her just because in a 52-pages analysis on the series more accurate than 99& of RS she said in a two-sentences paragraph "according to Misplaced Pages"? Do not get me wrong: I'm not questioning ], and I still myself said that I have doubts about her being the best source, to say it with an euphemism, considering these Misplaced Pages mentions. I'm not gonna mention that passage on Misplaced Pages for all the gold of this world, and I did not. I'm saying, using common sense: if this author proved very accurate and more serious than 95% of the A&M/I on NGE, and if nobody mentioned in the NGE-articles her "According to Misplaced Pages" ''two'' sentences, are we seriously deleting all the other serious NGE analyisis I mentioned she provided? I bet that even CBR.com mentioned Misplaced Pages in its pre-2023 articles, but it still is ] as a ''situational'' source. IGN is also listed as a ], but ironically in this Italian article it mentions . For all of this, I strongly oppose this, and I think the best is to keep her as situational. ] (]) 11:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::Citing and quoting Misplaced Pages is just one problem of many and in ''Anime Intersections'' she quotes or cites Misplaced Pages a whopping six times. These are not mere mentions, but instead direct quotations or citations. In case there's any doubts:
	:::::::::*"As the Misplaced Pages entry for A Scanner Darkly explains," (pg 101)
	:::::::::*"As the Misplaced Pages entry for the program points out" (pg 195)
	:::::::::*"As documented by the Misplaced Pages entry for the franchise" (pg 196)
	:::::::::It's a general pattern of bad sourcing. She cites an interview on a , which was translated from Chinese to English, which even has a disclaimer that it's for entertainment purposes only. I am not sure if the translation is accurate, or even what or where the original interview is to be found. Another time she cites a Geocities page which I can't even find an online archive of, for the source of a quote by ]. Presumably it was some kind of Japanese publication which was then translated by the fan or taken from somewhere. The , but none of the subpages. The same quote is produced on the and guess what? There is no explanation where it came from! You see the problem with this? You run in circles trying to find the source for these quotes. And you should only give a translated quote if it was done by a professional translator from a major publication because we can trust it, versus an amateur translation.
	:::::::::I could spend hours finding issues with her scholarship, and the more that I look, the more issues I find, but I digress. There's a lot of these sloppily written books published on niche nerd interests like video games or anime, and we really should hold standards of scholarship. Though, truth be told, some of the sources she cites are perfectly fine, such as '']'', or '']'', or '']''. So why not just cite those directly and cut out the middle man? ] (]) 22:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Apologies for the delay in responding here; it's been an incredibly busy week for me. I'm going to concur with {{noping|Harizotoh9}} on this one; the fact that Cavallaro mentions this or that is not entirely relevant to our discussion here. {{em|You}} might be impressed by the detail of her research, but there are legitimate reasons that other scholars may not be citing the various interviews you mentioned — not the least being that they might consider them relatively unimportant, or that they may be prioritizing writing their own analyses instead of quoting other works. Harizotoh9 also brings up a good point: if you'd like to cite interviews or other primary sources, there's no need to use Cavallaro as a middlewoman, they can simply be cited directly as long as they comply with Misplaced Pages's guidelines. <span class="nowrap">—]</span> <small>(])</small> 18:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::She's just grabbing whatever online source she can find and because it's paraphrasing fan sources, it will quite often be correct. For the above quote by Ikuto Yamashita, she cites a now dead website, and this is being used ''] ''page right now. So as of now I can't verify this quote at all. If I had to wager a guess, I would say the quote is likely real and is sourced to some sort of Japanese guidebook. But I don't know that, and I certainly don't trust she did due diligence to double check it, or assure the quote was accurately translated. We need to have standards and to start somewhere. ] (]) 06:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			I am not a person of notoriety like Tristan Taormino or Dan Savage, but that does not mean I don't know what I'm talking about or what I put out into the world about pegging is just my 'opinion'. There have been no 'studies' on pegging and there aren't likely to be anytime soon, for obvious reasons.
	:''*"She got in to the English programme at Westminster, when it was run by Dani Cavallaro,"''
	:I now have some honest to goodness third party source on her life and background. I checked the wayback version of the Westminster site from 1998, but the site was very basic back then without any information on faculty. So it seems she ran the ] department at Westminster University in the mid 90's. Likely means she has a masters or phD in ]. There's likely some web page on the wayback machine somewhere giving a faculty biography. Her first book was a collaboration book on Fashion published by Bloomsbury appears to be a legitimate book when she was employed at the university and became a freelance writer on anime later. ] (]) 00:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::If you google this name there seem to be a lot of people named that (and from a few years ago wondering who the heck this person was due to having no visible online footprint). Is this the same person?? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 02:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I get the feeling that stuff like this is the real Achilles' heel of Misplaced Pages, where we are forced to maintain a sort of perfunctory deference to academic sources, insisting that bloggers are inadmissible because they aren't serious enough... even when the academic sources are themselves citing those same bloggers. I mean, do you need to have a PhD to figure out which ''Keion!'' is the coolest?<ref><math>tsumugi > sawachan > ritsu > mio \gtrapprox ui > (azunyan \approx nodoka) \gg yui</math></ref> For something like, for God's sake, animé opinions, I really don't see what we get by citing a book of some person's opinions, when someone like https://karmaburn.com/ a) has better opinions and b) is more rigorous in the first place -- I am quite sure that among Misplaced Pages editors we have sufficient expertise as well -- we might as well allow ourselves to use it,<b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 02:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::It's not about who has the "best" opinions, because that's purely subjective, but to create an objective overview of reliable sources which means avoiding self-published sources like blogs at all costs. Cavarallo's works have the surface level appearance of proper academic books but are extremely lacking. Academic books published by ] are considered some of the best sources, because they're written by experts with heavy amounts of peer review. Below are two examples of such works which discuss anime media or anime fandoms as examples:
	::* '''' ] (2002)
	::* ''''. ] (2012)
	::] (]) 19:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	{{rlt}}
			Since when was the only measure of an expert their notoriety? I have gone down the rabbit hole of pegging and remained there. I have held space for all the different expressions of pegging during that time, which are numerous. I have advised hopeful and how to approach their partners, while also educating them about the (intensely) common misconceptions and assumptions about the sexual act, and so many more things that are a part of pegging. Masculinity, role reversal, communication, etc, etc.
	== Symposium on Applications and the Internet Workshops (SAINT) ==
			I have helped countless couples find the best equipment for them, which is much more complicated and individual than a cheap strap-on and dildo. Educating interested people about pegging has been my mission for the last 14 years. Other sex educators have more surface knowledge about this sexual act - knowledge that can be gleaned from a simple Marie Claire article.
	Could I get a third opinion on this source recently added to ]? The grammar and some of the claims in the cited paper struck me as bizarre, but I am unfamiliar with the symposium:
			My apologies if I sound a little irritated. My intentions are good. Famous people are not the best sources, necessarily. In sex education circles I am widely known as the go-to expert.
	* https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1620054
	* https://ieeexplore-ieee-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/document/1620054
	Thanks, ] (]) 23:15, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
			https://peggingparadise.com/ (my original website)
	:Conference proceedings are bottom-level references, journals and proper books are better. They're better than blogs, but not by much. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 11:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:The abstract here is really one of the least coherent paragraphs of text: {{tq|Licenses of open source software (OSS) are quiet various but can be categorised into three. That is GPL (GNU general Public License) like, LGPL (GNU Lesser general Public License) like, or MPL (Mozilla Public License) like. Although there are numbers of licenses, most of OSS projects are accepting GPL or GPL compatible. In reality GPL is one of the most effective powers for distribution; self-reproduction system in it. More over it also has economic "positive network externality". This mean that open source software is better for basis of social infrastructure.}}
	:Uh... what? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 18:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Welcome to Japanese researchers trying their best to write in English. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 18:50, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::I mean, it's more than a grammar issue, the "categorized into three" thing makes no sense -- what about apache, mit etc (which I'm pretty sure are more used than MPL)?? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::They explain what they mean immediately after. GPL-like licences, LGPL-like licenses, and MPL-like licenses.
	::::Either they aren't aware of MIT/Apache/etc.., or they consider them to be GPL-like / LGPL-like / etc.... I haven't read the full paper, so I don't know which of the two they mean. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 21:39, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			https://www.theartofpegging.com/ (my educational and patron platform)
	== Huffington Post on American politics ==
			https://pegging101.com/ (pegging with no kink for the vanilla people)
	Currently HuffPo is ] at ]. This was based on a ] whose close and comments focused very much on the bias of the outlet's American political coverage. Recent practice here has been to focus on false reporting, rather than biased reporting, when evaluating a source. Is there any appetite for a new discussion? ] (] / ]) 19:28, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
			With Respect For All That You Amazing People Do,
	:I think the current yellow/no consensus rating is appropriate. The Huffington Post is consistently biased. Name an issue in American public life, and I can tell you what the Huffington Post "thinks" about it, without consulting the paper. That's not good. For someone who is not deeply grounded in American politics, that bias could be misleading. However, I still think the paper is perfectly usable as a source in many contexts. I don't think changing it to either GENREL or GUNREL would be an improvement. ] (]) 19:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
			Ruby Ryder ] (]) 05:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I don't know if this affects anything, but reportedly some employees from ] were shuffled into HuffPost when the former shut down last year. Though who knows how many were shuffled rather than laid off anyway. ] (]) 07:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Huffpo is such a terrible online blog/site, and I really don't like it. It should be removed from every article. ] (]) 21:40, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
	:You're right, FFF; bias, even consistent, is not a good reason to downgrade reliability. Attribution also doesn't require ]; we have a few green-listed sources at RSP where attribution is encouraged. HuffPo does original reporting; for example they've recently done some very solid journalism on internal Biden admin deliberations regarding Middle-East policy, for which they've been praised by journalists working for "green" (]) outlets; and I saw no issues with the articles from a journalistic ethics standpoint. ] (]) 10:08, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	::DFlhb and by extension FFF are correct here regarding bias vs. reliability; IMO the distinction to be made here is between Huffington Post's original reporting, which tends to be quite good and doesn't appear to have reliability issues; and Huffington's Post's non-original reporting, which does. For example, I've been published on HuffPo as a "Contributor" based on licensed re-publication of my work on other sites (like Quora) that would *not* meet ] standards. But in contrast, seems fine. ]] <small><sup>Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!</sup></small> 23:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I honest-to-God think we should just remove the colors from the table so we are forced to read the text and risk using our brains to interpret what the consensus is about the sources. It seems like common sense that you would not write, uh, {{tq|Democrats are better than Republicans and experts say you should vote for them.<sup></sup>}} or vice versa and cite it to HuffPost or Fox etc even if they are reliable for other stuff. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Ms. Ryder,
	== allmovie.com now using film descriptions and actor biographies from Misplaced Pages ==
			:What would help here is if you could point us to either reliable, independent sources citing your work, or of you writing for publications that you don't publish yourself.... something that helps us see that, as you say, "in sex educations widely known as a go-to expert." I fully believe that you are.
			:The problem with someone using your sources as a reference has to do with Misplaced Pages's rules on using self-published sources, which your websites, videos, etc, count as. We can use such sources as reference (if within some limits), but only if we can see that the creator is a ''recognized'' expert in the field... and by recognized, that means either cited by or hired to write on the topic by reliable sources. I know that it seems like your voluminous experience and the visible quality of your materials should count for something here, but alas it does not. I don't think we'd be expecting, say, the New York Times or the Journal of the American Medical Association in this case, just some recognizable source that takes such sexual matters seriously. It doesn't even have to be material that is online (although that would help.) Articles that quote you or recommend your sites or training services would really help. Can you point us to such citations? -- ] (]) 06:10, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	The website allmovie.com, which previously contained independent summaries of films, and actors, has, apparently in the last month or so, switched to short summaries based on Misplaced Pages entries, headed "Description by Misplaced Pages". This would seem to make it an unsuitable source for these articles, but it's not clear how pervasive the change was (are there still some articles that are usable?) Can anyone throw light on what the changes have been, before its rating as a Reliable Source is changed? ] (]) 22:17, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
			:I appreciate the work that you do. Unfortunately Misplaced Pages editors cannot use their own judgement to assess the expertise of someone. There are people who research topics and work in a field their entire lives who become experts in those fields and publish their work on their own websites. But there are also pseudo-experts who do the same thing. Editors on Misplaced Pages are not allowed to use their own judgement to discern the difference between the two, but must rely on a third party to establish their expertise. If you have ever given an interview on pegging for a newspaper or a magazine, or had your website cited by a sexologist or another recognizable sex expert as a good resource on pegging, for instance, then that would allow us to recognize the reliability of your site for the purposes of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 07:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Agreed that there needs to be a larger discussion again; Allmovie is used on about 10,000 articles, they've restructured their internal data so most existing links do not work, and they've dropped a lot of content like reviews and non-wiki descriptions. On a quick glance, the mirroring appears to be a massive copyright violation as they are not using the material under the correct license, nor are they crediting the authors as required. "Rhythm One" no longer owns this farm, it was purchased or transitioned somehow to "Nataktion LLC" in May of 2020. This seems to just be a very small, straight-up marketing company that is cutting material under license (from some other data stream) and cramming as many ads as possible on each page. It may be best to have separate discussions on Allmusic and Allmovie, as there still appear to be staff reviews on Allmusic. ''] ]'' 13:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Could you comment on and notify the article talk page you want to edit? We really cannot help without context around what changes you want to include.
	::I think AllMovie is usually an external link template. If it meets ] (which I believe it already did anyway), we can remove that template en masse. But if it's used in article bodies, is there a way to ensure archiving for when it was reliable before? ]&nbsp;(]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;]) <sup>(])</sup> 14:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::If ] and ] need to be removed from EL (and eventually deleted as these aren't citation templates), then they should be sent to ] so the correct bots can help. ] (]) 10:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)		:that conversation from 2017 is old. I have no clue if that is what Misplaced Pages editors believe today, nor the state of the article you want to change. ] (]) 19:47, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I am highly confident that ] is the main article on the topic. ] (]) 19:56, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I would concur. ] (]) 19:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Enough other sites use Misplaced Pages as a source that there's a great danger of circular references when they site Misplaced Pages and Misplaced Pages cites them... wasn't there an XKCD comic about that? (Yeah, .) ] (]) 14:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::Their comment wasn't asking which page the 2017 discussion was on (which is linked to), but was asking RubyRyder to leave a comment on the talk page of that article. ] (]) 20:09, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::* Is the only reason we want to include this information because its from RubyRyder and it would be good publicity? or is there a specific bit of info that they want to include that is missing?
	:Good find. I think there needs to be a RfC regarding Allmovie. I've been dubious about it's reliability for actor bios even before it started using bios from Misplaced Pages as it had the incorrect DOBs listed. And there used to be fact sheets at the bottom of the actor pages. The actor bios on TVguide.com had the same things. So it looks like Allmovie was copying/pasting stuff beforehand. There actually hasn't been an official consensus on whether or not it's a reliable source. But even that doesn't stop it from being ref spammed on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 11:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::* have they tried including it and seeing what happens? (see ]) Are regulars who wrote and watch the pegging article notified that this debate is happening?
	:Thanks for bringing this up. Another issue I noticed during a ] is that the ratings on there are ''extremely'' questionable. It looks like they give every (released?) film a rating, even when they clearly haven't had someone watch it. For example, try looking up any ]. I arbitrarily chose , , , and , and all have star ratings on there. ] (]) 07:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			::::* This post seems mostly like rehashing and trying to start up an argument from 2017 for the sake of a debate. would like info on what we are doing here, exactly, and what the debate is?
			::::] (]) 20:27, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Imperial College Press and Springer Nature? ==
			{{Moved discussion from|Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_23_January_2025|2=Thank you for your response. I understand the reasoning. I was asked for other sources, and below I am listing well-known sexologists and people with letters after their name who have interviewed me on their podcasts.
	* Draft article under construction ] (still in user space)
	* Here are two books by two different research fellows associated with ] Singapore.
	* First book is published by ] singapore and Second book is published by ] London.
	::1) Hassan, Muhammad Haniff. Civil Disobedience in Islam: A Contemporary Debate. Singapore, ], 2017. P 35. (Author: Muhammad Haniff Hassan is a Research Fellow at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, Nanyang Technological University, Singapore. His research interests Islamism, wasatiyah, and contemporary Islamic jurisprudence.)
	::2) Ali, Mohamed Bin. Roots Of Religious Extremism, The: Understanding The Salafi Doctrine Of Al-wala' Wal Bara'. Singapore, Publisher ], Distributor: World Scientific Publishing Company, 2015. P 10. (Author: Research Fellow at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, Nanyang Technological University, Singapore.)
	* <u>Please help confirm if above two books can be accepted as ]?</u>
	::*<small>Just for record:Another input request at ] is about distinct and different sources hence '''not''' ]. </small>
	] (]) 03:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	{{collapse top|Answered,Draft topic related but not about RSN}}
	:Unconnected to the RS question, but after a quick read through the draft I was a bit surprised that it didn't discuss the notion of imitation in terms of disbelief, which I assume might be how this idea got started and mutated over time (with the caveat that I know virtually nothing about this topic). ] (]) 04:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Pl. join in to develop the draft, since I always seek active contributions from diverse set of Wikipedians as much possible. That said, it's even to my surprise that, except for couple of good articles, orthodox religious theologies and lived religion is not covered on WP to minimal level in general and about Islamic theology too in particular. Even academia seems to be late in approaching Tashabbuh bi’l-kuffār i.e. imitation of non-Muslims, though now some academic coverage is there and I am trying to cover that. <u>Regarding your particular question</u> true that needs to be covered but our hands are tied to RS using expressly using word Tashabbuh, so far RS seems to cover that more with ] terminology and unfortunately again even the article ] is still a stub. I doubt I would have enough time myself for the article ] too. ] (]) 05:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	*Collapsing since my own answer is detailed. ] (]) 17:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	{{collapse bottom}}
	:Have you some good reason for distrusting those sources? Books from those publishers would normally be accepted as reliable sources without question. ] (]) 17:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Both seem to have editorial oversight so both are RS per wikipedia's definition.] (]) 03:10, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Centuries of Selfies ==
	We've having a dispute with @] on whether Jacob Truedson Demitz' ]<ref>{{cite book | last=Demitz | first=Jacob Truedson | title=Centuries of Selfies: Portraits commissioned by Swedish kings and queens| publisher=Vulkan Förlag | publication-place=Stockholm; New York | date=2020 | isbn=978-91-89179-63-9 | others=Preface by ]|title-link=Centuries of Selfies|pages=|ref=none}}</ref> can be considered a reliable source. This topic has been touched on ] and at ] (warning: these threads are not well focused on this issue).
	In my opinion it is not reliable: Demitz is just an amateur, and the book is self-published through . With Demitz, there has also been an incident involving SergeWoodzing where Demitz self-published a paper on an obscure website and it was used as a reference in WP the next day (]). SergeWoodzing has a stated COI with Demitz, for more information about that see ]. In other words, I have concerns that any claims in the book might be designed to influence WP.
	SergeWoodzing's argument is that the preface of the book is written by a respectable historian ]. According to Serge, {{tq|He obviously wouldn't have done that is he hadn't reviewed the entire book first}}, and Serge apparently wants us to regard the book as reliable as the books which Sundberg himself has written. The preface can be read in full on . In my opinion, this preface written to repay a debt a gratitude is not enough to dissolve the above concerns.
	Complete list of pages citing ''Centuries of Selfies'' and its predecessor ''Throne of a Thousand years'' (which is available at ) can be found at ]. Of these, ] displays a strong POV. I believe all these references were added by SergeWoodzing. Should they be removed or replaced by more reliable sources if they can be verified?
	{{reflist-talk}} ] (]) 09:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:What do we know about "Ristesson Ent", the publisher of the 1996 edition? I agree the extensive network of COI edits is troubling. ] (]) 10:56, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	::It seems to be essentially the same as ], an organization chaired by Demitz. This has been discussed at ]. ] (]) 11:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::It seems clear then that this is a ] and all the usual warnings apply.
	:::Digging into this a little, I'm a bit gobsmacked at how much content has been pushed into Wikimedia Commons by what appears to be a small family history society. This surely can't be OK. ] (]) 11:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::Dr. Sundberg did not publish the book. --] (]) 12:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)berg did not publish the book.
	::::Southerly Clubs is not a "small family history society". The organization has a total of over 4,300 members. It has a long-standing OTRS agreement with Commons which has bever been violated. Wikimedia Commons does not allow any images to be "pushed into" it. Are you objecting to their donation and creation of so many relevant images or what gobsmacked you? --] (]) 12:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::What is the organisation? Who are the members? Does the 4,300 figure include the ?
	:::::What do you mean when you say the organisation has an "OTRS agreement with Commons"? ] (]) 12:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::I am pessimistic about whether anything can be done about that Commons network. There is an occasional useful photo, and Commons does not have very strong content policies, except those related to copyright. What could be done is to limit their spillage into enWP. For example, the number of seems excessive. ] (]) 06:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Some of the captions at least are undue, like on ]. I can't see a purpose in calling out a non-notable person just because they happen to be in the same picture as the notable person, especially when a full caption is easily available by clicking through to the source of the image.
	:::::I find it dubious that some of the wider collection belongs on Commons:
	:::::Also .
	:::::In terms of their usage on Misplaced Pages here, I don't see a lot of encyclopedic value, but rather a lot of personal aggrandisement for the benefit of family members. ] (]) 12:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	Demitz was paid for his work on Sundberg's dissertation. Any claim that Sundberg wrote the preface to "to repay a debt a gratitude" is insulting to Sundberg as the ethical professional he is.
	Sundberg wrote the preface largely due to the book's extensive and reliable bibliography (pp. 182-188) listing and carefully identifying over 350 scholarly works (most owned by Demitz as the list shows), and for the reasons he gives himself.
	] currently has 7 books by Demitz listed , ] has 2 listed . His books are found in national and regional and state libraries all over the world. So whether or not he is "just an amateur", as nom asserts without much kindness or reliability, can certainly be debated, if necessary. Prefaces to two of his other books (see LIBRIS) are by ] and ], Esq. They did not write them "to repay a deby of gratitude" but because the writing in that work is good.
	The item on Saint Bridget, as the source citation indicates, was brought up especially by '']'' in that newspaper's review.
	Sundberg in his preface especially mentions Demitz's beneficial knowledge of English ]s, which has led to what can be called a campaign by this complaining user to eradicate them all over Misplaced Pages.
	I do not know what Ristesson is or was in 1994 as to relevance here, only that their books have been quite well respected internationally. If I have been guilty of COI input, I am truly sorry. I have intended not to be. Should this matter be judged ''only'' on that, now when Misplaced Pages is allowing people's own websites etc. for sourcing about them?
	Behind this noticeboard entry there is personal ] stemming from my having appealed to nom not to ruin a redirect which once helpfully was for the disambiguation of various Swedish royal women by the same names, so that it, confusing, suddenly went to an article about the name, not about any of the women. Things have been difficult with that user since then and I have asked h cordially to stop being angry. --] (]) 11:43, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:It was you who brought up this book quite unexpectedly on my talk page. I came here since I did not feel like discussing it with you alone. ] (]) 12:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:* {{ISBN|9789163914805}} - Poetry & song lyrics - Publicerad: Stockholm, Sweden : Swenglistic Underground, August 13 2018
	:* {{ISBN|9789163314858}} - Grenstam - Publicerad: Stockholm : Famsac Stockholm & Blair, 2020
	:* {{ISBN|9163050307}} - Throne of a thousand years - Publicerad: Ludvika ; Ristesson, 1996
	:* {{ISBN|9789198346008}} - Prinsarna och prinsessorna Bernadotte i Luxemburgs adel - Publicerad: Stockholm : , 7 juni 2017
	:* {{ISBN|9789198346015}} - Princes and princesses Bernadotte in Luxembourg's nobility - Publicerad: Stockholm, Sweden : , June 7 2016
	:* {{ISBN|9789189179639}} - Centuries of selfies - Publicerad: Stockholm : Vulkan, 2020
	:* {{ISBN|9789152717073}} - Brandgula tillägget 2006 - Publicerad: : ,
	:From :
	:{{tqb|This image comes from the Southerly Clubs of Stockholm, Sweden, a non-profit society which owns image publication rights to the archives of Lars Jacob Prod, Mimical Productions, F.U.S.I.A., Swenglistic Underground (formerly CabarEng), Ristesson Ent and FamSAC.}}
	:So 6 of these 7 books appear to be published in association with "FamSAC", "Ristesson", or "Swenglistic Underground", which all come under the umbrella of "Southerly Clubs", of which we are Demitz is the chairman. The other 1 is published by Vulkan, which Google Translate suggests is a self-publishing company.
	:A book being available in a library does not mean the book is reliable. A celebrity endorsement does not mean the book is reliable.
	:] applies. ] (]) 12:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Even if considered self-published, ] applies as to Sundberg's endorsement of Demitz's bibliography and knowledge.
	::Riese is hardly just a ''celebrity''. Only his prominence as a bank lawyer landed him in svWP. Not all WP bios are on celebritues.
	::FamSAC and Swenglistic Underground have their own boards. Southerly Clubs administers their emails, phones etc but has no say whatsoever in their publications or other activity.
	::National libraries etc do not include worthless books in their collections, particularly not the LOC or British Library. They are very picky.
	::Ulf Sundberg's preface is what should be discussed as a reliable source. Angry and eager as you are to trash him, you even tried to until you realized on your own that that was an error.
	::Another factual error of yours; I did not create or negotiate it's OTRS.
	::You are obviously trying to use this forum to promote your own personal agenda, now ignoring Sundberg. Sad! --] (]) 13:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Please can you take care to be clear who you are responding to. You are talking to two different editors but seem to be mixing us up.
	:::I will respond to the parts that I think were directed at me.
	:::* ABOUTSELF does not apply to Sundberg's preface because Sundberg didn't publish the book, and it's not about him.
	:::* Riese is completely irrelevant as his preface was on an entirely different book to the one we are discussing.
	:::::Relevant re "just an amateur". --] (]) 09:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::* {{tq|FamSAC and Swenglistic Underground have their own boards.}} And yet, says Demitz is the Deputy Chairman of FamSAC. So how does he have {{tq|no say whatsoever in their publications or other activity}}? Demitz is also listed under on another Commons page that you created. Hardly independent.
	:::::A deputy chairman cannot publish h organization's books on h own. Neither can a chairman. They are not owners, only board members. --] (]) 09:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::* {{tq|National libraries etc do not include worthless books in their collections, particularly not the LOC or British Library. They are very picky.}} Legal deposit libraries hold vast collections and being included in those vast collections does not imply reliability.
	:::::LOC does not accept deposits of foreign publications. Only donations they consider valuable. --] (]) 09:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::* {{tq|Another factual error of yours; I did not create or negotiate it's OTRS.}} I didn't say you did. I said you created (and you did).
	:::So what is an OTRS agreement anyway, and who did negotiate it, and what does it say that should influence our judgement of the reliability of a book that it published? ] (]) 14:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::You brought up Commons. Commons is irrelevant here. If you want to discuss this at Commons, go there! --] (]) 09:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::(Aside: please don't ] comments)
	:::::"Just an amateur" is perfectly accurate, and one professor liking the book isn't enough to make the author non-amateur, and isn't enough to undo the self-published nature of the book.
	:::::The author is clearly intimately involved in the publishing organisation to a degree that makes the publishing organisation ], and thus the book is still a self-published source.
	:::::Whether the LOC values the book or not is independent of whether the book is a reliable source of facts for a history article. ] (]) 13:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::You are trying very hard to tell us that someone is clearly intimately involved in something, as if you knew that for a fact. And you also infer that you have lots and lots of knowledge about these things, these organizations and these people, which we have no actual reason to recognize. A for effort, A+ for ego, F for insight. --] (]) 21:15, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::A deep understanding of how Ristesson Ent and the other clubs work and what they do is not required here. Ristesson Ent is not an established publishing house, Demitz has had a position in its board, and it mostly or exclusively publishes books by Demitz. That is enough to establish it as non-independent of Demitz. As for the status of 'amateur', the onus would be on you to show that Demitz is an established subject-matter expert. Self-publishing books is not enough for that.
	:::::::We might also discuss whether these books can be considered reliable despite being self-published. According to ], a reliable source has the following characteristics:
	:::::::# {{tq|It has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.}} {{cross}}
	:::::::# {{tq|It is published.}} {{tick}}
	:::::::# {{tq|It is appropriate for the material in question, i.e., the source is directly about the subject, rather than mentioning something unrelated in passing.}}
	:::::::# {{tq|It is a third-party or independent source.}} {{tick}}
	:::::::# {{tq|It has a professional structure in place for deciding whether to publish something, such as independent editorial oversight or independent peer review processes.}} {{cross}}
	:::::::There is no evidence that the first and the fifth condition would be met. The third one depends on context. ] (]) 08:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Orlando Figes ==
	{{lat|Orlando Figes}}
	Please see the Talk page on my entry, Orlando Figes. Archive evidence has come to light (the Stephen Cohen Archive at Princeton Uni. Library) that should be admitted as a reliable primary source (indeed, the only reliable source) about the role of Memorial in the cancellation of the Russian publication of my book The Whisperers in 2012. The evidence contradicts the reports in the press which suggested that Memorial was officially involved in the cancellation. This is not true, as confirmed by the head of Memorial, Roginsky, in a letter to Stephen Cohen, which also makes it clear that the "Memorial" report was in fact the report of a single researcher. This is also not reflected in the[REDACTED] entry. I have been told by the active editors that the archive evidence is not considered reliable by Misplaced Pages policy whereas an inaccurate newspaper report on the role of Memorial IS a reliable source. This is obviously absurd. I am posting this here in the hope of a resolution before considering my legal options. ] (]) 14:08, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
	:This is not, how it works here. We prefer secondary sources over primary: "All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors." (from ]) Best course of action is to find a better secondary source and persuade other editors the old source is outdated. Note legal threats (even veiled ones) may lead to a swift block (]). ] (]) 05:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Speaking on the archive in Princeton, I understand that any content placed by an expert to a public domain is already a publication, obviously of ] nature. Hence, one ''can'' use it per ] and ] if it helps to clarify something and the author is a well known expert, such as ], telling something in the area of his expertise. It does not mean we should use it (such materials are typically undue), but I think we can. ] (]) 16:26, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Is there any reason to think The Indian Express is unreliable for this deleted edit? ==
	See [https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Blackout_challenge&diff=prev&oldid=1227635674 with an edit summary "Removal of contradiction. Choking is older than the internet, and the internet was not invented by tiktok as the media from stolen territories insinuate. Moreover, the source is unreliable." The source is The Indian Express which RSNP says is generally reliable. And “stolen territories”?
	The editor is ]. ] ] 19:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	* Whether it's unreliable or not (it's probably OK), there are plenty of better sources . And the editor concerned is talking gibberish, there's probably a CIR issue here. ] 19:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
	:*I've reverted three edits that removed sourced content, and warned the user pretty sharply. ] &#124; ] 19:26, 10 June 2024 (UTC).
	::@] At the moment almost all of their edits have been reverted, and I've asked what " the media from stolen territories insinuate." in two edit summaries means. ] ] 12:40, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::No response. ] ] 19:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	:'''Reliable''' and ]. '']'' is a ] that regularly covers Internet culture as one of its many topic areas. —&nbsp;''''']'''&nbsp;<small>]</small>'' 19:13, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	== ] as an author for refs in ] ==
	Could Harold Perkin and his ''The Third Revolution: Professional Elites in the Modern World'' be considered a reliable source about ]? The book could be found , the relevant part on pages 138-139. According to Misplaced Pages article about Perkin, he is considered a respected scholar, but in a different field. He is not an expert on Azerbaijan or Heydar Aliyev, never published any specialized researches on this topic, and only makes passing mentions of Aliyev in his book. General topic of the book is not Aliyev or Azerbaijan, but "''the rise of a global professional society since the Second World War''". In the paragraph about Aliyev, Perkin makes completely false statements, such as this:
	Quote: ''Aliev thrust himself to the head of the Azeri People’s Front, and was elected to the Supreme Soviet of the republic in time for independence in 1991''.
	In reality, Heydar Aliyev never led ], who were in fact his political opponents. Apparently, Perkin mixed ] (whose actual surname was also Aliyev) with Heydar Aliyev, which shows that Perkin had no real knowledge of the subject. Generally, the two paragraphs dedicated to Aliyev read more like yellow press than a serious research, and contain other unrealistic claims.
	In my opinion, if a source shows clear lack of knowledge on the subject, and makes false claims, it cannot be considered reliable on that particular subject. In addition, according to ]: ''Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible''. This I believe is clearly the situation with the Perkin's book. ]] 08:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Comment'''. I think Grandmaster should've linked the relevant talk discussion in their post here, no? Otherwise, how editors would know the context of what we've already discussed?
	:Anyway, please see the discussion about Perkin: ].
	:Obviously he's a reliable source; being an esteemed historian, his book is also published by established ] with a peer-review process. The surname confusion quote in the page 139 that Grandmaster cherry-picked to invalidate Perkin isn't even included in the wiki article of ]. Also the confusion doesn't come from Perkin himself but from The Independent news article that confused the two Aliyevs, so Perkin shouldn’t be blamed for when he was misled by another source.
	:And as if Perkin's credentials aren't enough that he's a clear ] published by an established publisher with a peer-review process, there is an actual review of Perkin's book too (that Grandmaster omitted mentioning here), praising the book for being well written and an excellent reference for political science and history:
	:*“''The book is lively and well written. Surely controversial and thus worth reading. As an essay targeted to the public at large, it is a work of culture and finesse. It will make an excellent reference for one of those undergraduate discussions that so usefully open or close a political science, history, or even economics course.''”
	:And as if this wasn't enough, there is another book which verifies the same things Perkin said (the things that are actually cited in the ] article), like the sex services info which is confirmed in this other book too:
	:*"''Among these volunteers, there were women, and the organization's property holdings solved the problem of secret rendezvous for them and their men friends. This was perhaps the key sense in which these flats were 'secret'. Using his official position, Geidar Aliev would encourage his 'volunteer' helpers to make love to him. One of them went along with it but then changed her mind and kicked up a fuss. This was after Stalin's death, and the terror of what had been Beria's outfit eased for a while.''"
	:It should be noted that after I provided the Vaksberg book basically verifying what Perkin said, Grandmaster tried to discredit Vaksberg and his book too with ] commentary , but to no avail because ] is not accepted on Misplaced Pages, and to top this off, there is an actual positive book review for Vaksberg and his work as well, it even praises the Azerbaijani chapter in particular:
	:*''the most interesting chapter is the one on Aliev and the Azerbaijan mafia. The recent civil disturbances involving the surviving communist leadership, the Aliev mafia and the popular front leadership becomes more comprehensible after Vaksberg's analysis.''
	:Basically after all of this, seemingly having no further replies to my arguments, Grandamster brings the discussion here to this board because apparently Grandmaster wants "third party opinions" , even though we already had a third party in the talk discussion (]) who also disagreed with Grandmaster's personal views . ] (]) 11:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Yes, I forgot to link the discussion at talk of the article, apologies for that. Otherwise, Perkin actually took all the content about Aliyev from Vaksberg, which Perkin himself acknowledged, but due to not being familiar with the subject Perkin mixed up the facts. And as I wrote above, Perkin made only a passing mention of Aliyev in 2 paragraphs of the book that is generally dedicated to a different subject. ]] 15:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::{{la|Heydar Aliyev }}
	:::Over at the article talk page, you were asked to provide sources. Your not doing so here makes it seem that this is a personal issue based upon OR. --] (]) 17:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::Do you need a source that Heydar Aliyev did not lead Popular Front? We have articles about ] and ], and you were provided a few sources at talk. If that's not enough, here's more.
	::::Audrey L. Altstadt. Frustrated Democracy in Post-Soviet Azerbaijan. Columbia University Press, 2017. Quote:
	::::''The Popular Front was formed in secret meetings of academicians and literati during 1988-89. Some of its members were already known as dissidents, including the fifty-year-old Abulfez Aliyev, a historian who worked in the Academy of Sciences' archives. He had formerly worked as a translator in Egypt and taught at Baku State University, then was jailed in the mid-1970s for anti-Soviet activity. He emerged as a leading personality in the Popular Front and was dubbed the "messenger" (elchi). His family name, a very common one, was later replaced with "Elchibey" (adding the honorific "bey" to the title). At the first congress of the Popular Front in 1989, Elchibey was elected the organization's chairman. Among the other leaders were men and women in their mid-thirties, including Etibar Mamedov, Isa Gambar(ov), Leyla Yunus(ova), and Zardusht Alizade, all of whom later founded political parties''.
	::::This is from Thomas de Waal, Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War. NYU Press, 2003:
	::::''The year 1989 began quietly in Azerbaijan before accelerating to a terri­fying climax. On 16 July, the Popular Front began its second phase of activity by holding its first congress and electing as its new chairman Abulfaz Elchibey, the man who would later become Azerbaijani presi­dent in 1992. Elchibey was a former dissident and scholar of the Middle East who, even his critics conceded, had great personal honesty and moral authority''.
	::::I can cite many more sources about Abulfaz Elchibey being the leader of PFA, if needed. ]] 23:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::Thank you.
	:::::Following the instructions for this noticeboard, what claim currently being supported by a Perkin reference are you questioning? --] (]) 16:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::I'm questioning reliability of this source for this particular article in general. ]] 08:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::Then you're probably wasting everyone's time. --] (]) 17:03, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:This is indeed a mistake that no one with a passing knowledge of Azerbaijan would make. Considering that Azerbaijan is not the topic of this book, I wouldn't use it for anything Azerbaijan-related. ]<sub>]</sub> 19:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	== The International Crime of Genocide: The Case of the Tamil People in Sri Lanka ==
	Can the publication '''The International Crime of Genocide: The Case of the Tamil People in Sri Lanka (Report)''' , published by the ] authored by Lutz Oette in December 1997 can be considered a reliable source for use in Misplaced Pages? It doesn't seem listed in Lutz Oette list of publications in his profile at ] and the Tamil Information Centre seems to be an advocacy group. ] (]) 07:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:@], Lutz Oette is a professor of international human rights law and this publication in particular has been cited in other reliable sources such as "" (p. 272) and "" (p. 157) both published by well-known academic publishers. Given the author's credibility and the report's notability, it can be used on Misplaced Pages too, with the publisher name explicitly attributed if need be.---] (]) 10:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::{{ping|Petextrodon}} It's important to note that an appearance in a list of references from a reliable source does not demonstrate reliability. A reliable source can say "Reports like are completely wrong on this point." and then list in their references. It's not enough that the report appears in the bibliography because it really matters how the publication is mentioned in the books.{{pb}}I haven't checked for these particular books for how they mention this report, so I'm making no specific comment on this Oette reference. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;font-size:100%;color:black;background-color:transparent;;">]<sup>]</sup></span> 10:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Right. My point was that it has external coverage by RS for its notability so it's not some fringe publication.---] (]) 10:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::My point is that it could still be fringe and/or unreliable. Those two books could just as well say "Fringe voices such as say that the Earth is a cube". You'd need to pull up how the report is actually mentioned in those books, ideally with a quote. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;font-size:100%;color:black;background-color:transparent;;">]<sup>]</sup></span> 11:06, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::For example, there are academic books on misinformation where a source's listing in their bibliographies should not be used as evidence of being reliable or non-fringe! — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;font-size:100%;color:black;background-color:transparent;;">]<sup>]</sup></span> 11:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I get that. But the author himself is a notable and qualified authority on the matter. Dispute seems to be about the publisher "Tamil Information Centre" which can be characterized as pro-Tamil. The book is found in several university libraries: https://search.worldcat.org/title/822544097 ---] (]) 11:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::If the publisher "Tamil Information Centre" is pro-Tamil, then it can't be an independent source. Furthermore, are we talking about the same Oette here? Professor Oette doesn't seem to acknowledge this report in his works . Hence this looks neither independent nor reliable.] (]) 15:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::@] Yes it's the same Oette who has shown a longtime interest in the Tamil human rights issues. In fact, Seoighe (2017) that you recently removed thanked him in the Acknowledgements. Works mentioned in that website are relatively recent. The report in question is from the 1990s. In any case, Tamil Information Centre can be explicitly attributed if needed.----] (]) 15:38, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::@], I disagree. There is no link established between Professor Oette and the Tamil Information Centre publication. You yourself stated that the Tamil Information Centre is Pro-Tamil. How can a bias source be used for such a serious accusation such as Genocide. ] (]) 15:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::"There is no link established between Professor Oette and the Tamil Information Centre publication"
	:::::::::What do you mean by that? Are you saying the publisher just lied about the authorship and named a random public figure who could then sue them for libel? It makes no sense. I don't know much about Tamil Information Centre but they look like a Tamil rights advocacy organization. I didn't cite the report for the publisher but the competent authority on the matter. Publishers can be explicitly cited. Even reputable human rights groups are technically advocacy groups.---] (]) 15:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::Where does it say that? ] (]) 16:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::::You have to be more specific. Also, NGOs like ] and ] are considered reliable here despite them also advocating a particular policy thus not fully politically neutral: both have publicly advised Tamils to renounce separatism for example. Reports by the Tamil Information Centre are also cited by other reliable secondary sources: "" (p. 207) I see several more in google books. If it's enough for a Oxford University Press publication, then Misplaced Pages can handle it too.---] (]) 16:14, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:{{od|::::::::::}} I think one can reasonably take this to be the same Lutz Oette as based on the "About the Author" on the third page of the report. He is now a professor at an established institution but was not then (he was a recent graduate at the time of publication). He does not include this report in his publications and writes the report ''as the Tamil Information Centre'': {{tqb|Based on the findings of this study, the Tamil Information Centre (TIC) urges the government of Sri Lanka to comply with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, in particular Article I, V, and VI.|source=}}As such, I do not think the reliability of this particular report should be ]. It is a report published by the Tamil Information Centre, written from the perspective of the Tamil Information Centre, and as reliable as the Tamil Information Centre. It is certainly reliable for the point of view of the Tamil Information Centre (]), but what needs to be determined is:
	:*Whether it is reliable for statements of fact beyond "the Tamil Information Centre wrote a report that said ____".
	:*Whether any inclusion of the Tamil Information Centre's report is ].
	:Hope that helps. — <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS;font-size:100%;color:black;background-color:transparent;;">]<sup>]</sup></span> 19:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::::::::There has been a misunderstanding here. The report has been authored by Lutz Oette, which is '''explicitly''' mentioned in the introduction, it is the '''afterword''' by the publishers 'Tamil Information Centre' which is referring to the preceding study by Oette. Furthermore, the TIC explicitly thanks Oette for authoring the study in the 'acknowledgements'. The 'Tamil Information Centre' definitely cannot be taken as the authors of this study. ] (]) 22:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::]: {{tq|Any exceptional claim requires ''multiple'' high-quality sources.}} ] ] 19:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::What's the extraordinary claim being made? OP didn't mention a specific claim (which makes it more difficult to answer OP's question, since reliability can vary by context). ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 20:14, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::"Lutz Oette, an international law specialist, examined the reported cases of enforced disappearances of thousands of Tamils between 1984 and 1997 and stated that they fell within the definition of genocidal acts." This is the line on the Misplaced Pages page ] which the report is being cited for. It is already being explicitly attributed to Lutz Oette and not being said as a statement of fact in the Misplaced Pages voice. I see no issue with its inclusion. ] (]) 22:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::@], this is used to make to claim {{tq|Lutz Oette, an international law specialist, examined the reported cases of enforced disappearances of thousands of Tamils between 1984 and 1997 and stated that they fell within the definition of genocidal acts.}} in ]. This is an extraordinary claim. ] (]) 13:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::It is not an extraordinary claim, it's a fact, Lutz Oette did state this. It would potentially be an extraordinary claim if it was said without attribution in the Misplaced Pages voice, which it is not. It has been explicitly attributed to Lutz Oette as his opinion, not said simply as a statement of fact. ] (]) 16:22, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::If the claim under question is that ''Oette said this'', then it isn't an extraordinary claim if the source ''is'' Oette (or a publication Oette wrote), unless it's unusual and exceptional for Oette to consider these enforced disappearances a genocide—has Oette contradicted this in other publications?{{pb}}If the claim under question is that genocidal acts were perpetrated against Tamils, is that extraordinary either? Simply searching for "Tamil genocide" quickly yields '']'' (Clarity Press, 2009) written by ], also a specialist in international law. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 17:05, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Interesting point, my first attempt was to verify if this publication ''was'' written by Lutz Oette and it doesn't appear on his official profile or Google scholar profile (when I checked). I also noticed that Oette has written a lot on the Sri Lankan Civil War in his formal work, however I couldn't find any reference to genocide (did anyone else have any luck). 13:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 13:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Agreed with ], this appears to be a selft-published report of the TIC and as by ], TIC is biased. ] (]) 14:03, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	* Second everything {{u|MarkH21}} in . is a ] by TIC, which can be used only as a source for their views with proper ], and only if those views are ]. ] (]) 20:30, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Lutz Oette is the author, and TIC is the publisher. It is not self published. TIC are not a legal scholarly group and do not have the capability to author a report such as this, they are merely the publishers. In any case if there is any doubt on the authorship, Lutz Oette could be directly contacted to clarify. ] (]) 22:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	: Lutz Oette is a Professor of International Human Rights Law in ] are reputed authority in Human Rights.] (]) 20:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Since there are scholarly sources that reference this work, we can be pretty sure that there was no fabrication and Oette did make this statement back in 1997.
	:Whether it can be used on Misplaced Pages is a matter of ]. Is he the only one who held/holds this opinion? ]<sub>]</sub> 19:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	Lutz Oette is an authority on human rights and is the is the Director of the Center for Human Rights Law at SOAS, University of London not only in Tamil issues but also in other issues .] (]) 20:57, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
	:These seem to be fairly recent. What was his authority in 1997 when this report was published? ] (]) 14:05, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	== ] date of birth ==
	Are these two sources ] for <s>her</s> their date of birth: and ? Many thanks. ] (]) 08:44, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:With no comment on the DOB, doesn’t D’Arcy use they/them? ] (]) 10:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Ah yes, I have adjusted my question above. Although I think her gender at birth, which presumably also still appears on her birth certificate, is well-known. Or are you suggesting that one or both of those sources are not reliable because they mis-gender her? Thanks. ] (]) 10:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::It was just a reference to your edit, not to the sources. Thank you for changing it! ] (]) 10:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::You have no opinion on the sources? ] (]) 11:05, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::I’m not familiar enough with the person or the specific sources, I could speculate, but last time I tried my hand at ], I was in the significant minority.
	:::::If I had to say: ] and ] seem fine on reliability (with a very surface-level check), but I would look for a few additional RS or a direct statement (perhaps on social media) by them, just to be on firmer ground regarding widely published.
	:::::I would recommend that we wait for a few others to join in, just to be sure. ] (]) 11:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::Sources from "social media" tend to be dismissed as unreliable, although I have seen birth dates supported by "Happy Birthday" tweets on X. ] (]) 12:19, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::You’re right: an ] use can be helpful as secondary confirmation, in line with ], '' A verified social media account of an article subject saying about themselves something along the lines of "today is my 50th birthday" may fall under self-published sources for purposes of reporting a full date of birth. It may be usable if there is no reason to doubt it. '' ] (]) 12:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	::::::''The List'' about concern for factual accuracy and so forth, and publish contact details to submit corrections; ''Russh'' have a but I can't find any information about how to submit corrections. The authors of both pieces (, ) have apparently also published in magazines I would normally consider reliable for this sort of basic celebrity biographical information (one for Vogue, the other for GQ and Vulture). I don't see any particular reason not to consider these reliable sources. ] (]) 11:27, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::On the basis of that appraisal, I would be happy to add. ] (]) 12:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	== ] has an ]==
	<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>''']''' has an RfC for studies on genetic ancestry of Colombians. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the ''']'''.<!-- Template:Rfc notice--> Thank you. –] (]]) 10:08, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
	== RfC: Sources for ] ==
	<!-- ] 06:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1721368871}}
	{{rfc|hist|bio|reli|rfcid=5D2313F}}
	These two sources, among many others, are currently being used in the ] article.
	*{{Cite book |last=Rodgers |first=Russ |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=nOxXXwAACAAJ |title=The Generalship of Muhammad: Battles and Campaigns of the Prophet of Allah |date=2012 |publisher=University Press of Florida |isbn=978-0-8130-3766-0 |language=en}}
	*{{Cite book |last=Rodinson |first=Maxime | authorlink=Maxime Rodinson|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ttPdDwAAQBAJ |title=Muhammad |date=2021 |publisher=New York Review of Books |isbn=978-1-68137-493-2 |language=en | origyear=1961 | translator-last1=Carter |translator-first1=Anne|series=NYRB Classics}}
	Should both be replaced with other sources, thereby deeming these two sources unreliable? — ] ] 05:46, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:'''Oppose''' - Russ Rodgers' book is published by the ], and our ] policy states that "{{tq|Books published by university presses}}" are among "{{tq|the most reliable sources.}}" Rodgers is the command historian of the US Army and an adjunct professor of history. There are currently only two biographies of Muhammad written by ]: this Russ Rodgers' book and Richard A. Gabriel's book published by the ]. I believe their perspectives are crucial given that Muhammad's life after moving to Medina was filled with battles, including the ] (which ] from featured article status, apparently in part due to a lack of sources from military historians ). Rodgers' book has also been cited and reviewed positively by various other reliable sources (not just random blogspots or websites). As for Maxime Rodinson, he was for many years a professor at the ] at the Sorbonne and, after working several years in Syria and Lebanon, supervised the Muslim section of the ] in Paris . Some reviews of his book include . — ] ] 05:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I think these sources are RS per wikipedia's definitions. If anything, attribution would help to put some context if not an obvious claim.] (]) 06:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I don't see any problem with these sources. University of Florida Press and New York Review of Books are highly reliable sources. ] (]) 10:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:'''Comment''': Any claim that appears exclusively in one of these two books should not be included in the article without in-line attribution. These are popular works that don't generally engage with primary sources; there is no reason to believe that they make unique claims because of unique information. Muhammad is the subject of thousands of books. Very rarely is it productive to discuss claims in terms of their sourcing in such an article, because anything that deserves inclusion will be replicated across many valid options. You guys seem to be fighting over specific content. Each conflict should be an RFC on the Muhammad talk page (post notices wherever) with however many sources, arguments exist for each side. Don't waste everyone's time trying to win narrow and presumably well-sourced content disputes by end-running on process. ] (]) 13:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::The UF Press book doesn’t look like a pop-history coffee table book. ] (]) 01:57, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	Muhammad was a historical figure, like Napoleon, Buddha, ], Joan of Arc. As such, the highest quality material we should be using are academic books published by historians because they are written by experts, and go through extensive peer review, and are written a very neutral and factual manner. Thus they typically represent the best sources. If you look at FA quality pages on figures such as ] or ] they extensively use university press published works. The second book is published by the ], which is a publisher I am less familiar with and am not sure about the quality, but it appears to be less academic. So it may present slanted information. On any article with any kind of hotly debated or controversial topic, we should rely more on the highest quality sources (typically academic books by university presses) more and more. ] (]) 07:03, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I don't think New York Review of Books or ] was the original publisher of '']'', that was probably something French. ] (]) 09:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Close RfC''' We have absolutely no context on why the books might be unreliable at the first place. I have read Rodinson and his views, though scholarly, are now-antiquated; so, it becomes a question of DUE. ] (]) 10:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:<s>'''Replace''' - Russ Rodgers is a U.S. army military historian and not an Islamicist or any authority on ]. The University Press of Florida is indeed a reliable source but as Harizotoh9 noted, we should use the highest-quality sources as possible. Rodgers' most famous book is Nierstein and Oppenheim 1945 about World War II and he has written only around 3 books related to Islam. As i highlighted on the article's ], people like ] (an Israeli political scientist who is known to be an anti-Arab and Islamophobic person), Russ Rodgers (a U.S. Army military historian), Ram Swarup (an Indian leader of the Hindu revivalist movement), William E. Phipps (a ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) are nowhere close to ]. This article should contain the work of classical Islamicists and Orientalists such as ]. I'm actually surprised how dedicated orientalists like Watt have so less citations now than people like Bukay, Rodgers etc. FA articles such as ], ], ], ], all of whom are controversial figures between Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims, but nevertheless these articles are written neutrally neither from a Shia point of view nor a Sunni point of view and having reliable orientalists and Islamicists such as ], ], ], ], ], ] and not anti-Arab political scientists, Hindu revivalists or U.S. military historians. ] (]) 11:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)</s><small> {{smallcaps|Sockstrike}} <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 21:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)</small>
	* '''Comment'''. As others have said, the New York Review of Books is not the original publisher of Rodinson. The book was originally published in French in 1961 and subsequently published in English (translation by Anne Carter). The New York Review of Books has reprinted the book. I've updated the citation to clarify the situation. I can't speak to its reliability, but sixty years is a long time in academic publishing on a major topic. ] ] 11:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	* These sources have been the subject of contention since late 2023. For context for those unfamiliar, back in 2023, Kaalakaa decided to rewrite the Muhammad article, using primarily the two books mentioned in this RfC for references. On the talkpage, the reaction to Kaalakaa's rewrite and to these sources has been mixed to say the least. I don't really think anybody other than Kaalakaa would object if the article was reworked to rely less on or remove these sources, but the fundamental issue is that nobody seems to be able/willing to do this (I don't feel comfortable doing this due to lacking in depth knowledge of the source material) leading to people just arguing in circles. Does anyone have recommendations for recent up to date scholarly biographies of Muhammad? ] (]) 12:07, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::{{ping|Nourerrahmane|M.Bitton|R. Prazeres}} might have thoughts. ] (]) 12:48, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Bad RFC''' This completely ignores both the instructions in the noticeboard header and the edit notice. Discussions should take place before starting an RFC. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 12:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:Discussions have taken place, examples include
	*:*]
	*:*]
	*:*]
	*:*]
	*:An rfc doesn't seem like a glaringly WP-bad idea. ] (]) 13:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::Sure, but no discussions at this board. ] (]) 13:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::Is that a "must"? Anyway, ]. ] (]) 13:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*::::That's better, still, looking at that and then this, seems more like a discussion that ought to be at the article talk page, along the lines of what are ] for the subject. ] (]) 13:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*:::::This matches my opinion, this appears to be about what sources to use and what content should be included in the article.<br> Also the question of this RFC {{tq|Should both be replaced with other sources, thereby deeming these two sources unreliable?}} is a non sequitur, using different sources in the article would not 'deem' these sources as unreliable. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 15:33, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	* Discussion of sources by all means, don't need an RFC for that.] (]) 13:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' Russ Rodgers' claims "about military history" may or may not be reliable (since he's a military historian), but whatever he has to say about other scholarly subjects regarding Muhammad is obviously irrelevant. Maxime Rodinson's book was published in 1961, which makes it unsuitable for claims that have since been superseded and redundant for everything else. ] (]) 17:19, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''No'''. Not clear why these books should be deemed unreliable. They looked as good RS based of formal criteria (reliably published and written by experts). The books are not too old for such subject area. ] (]) 20:16, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Replace''' Rodgers because it's a ] source. The OP is the only person in past discussions on ] who considers the Rodgers book reliable, because he assumes, wrongly, that merely being published by a university press is a rubber-stamp of reliability, and that parroting the words from ] is justification for including it. That is emphatically not the case. While publication by a university press is a good indicator of reliability, it is by no means infallible, because ] deliberately. This is one example. Rodgers is the only source available for certain extraordinary claims about Muhammad, and extraordary claims require extraordinary evidence, such as multiple corroborating sources. He seems to be more of a hobbyist author with an interest in history, and his book is ignored by academia with very few citations to that book.
	== erenow.org ==
	Pages at erenow.org are . When I tried to view one of those sources, I got some odd website behavior that made me think the domain had been hijacked. I can't find archive.org versions of all of those cites. Before I remove the ones that I can't replace with archived urls, could someone else validate whether there is really a problem with that domain or it's just me? ]&nbsp;] 15:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I'm seeing no issues with the website. I followed the links in the first five articles in the search results at your link, all without any problems. I searched the site using it's internal search engine for "Canada" and "Malta" and viewed the first three hits for each, again without any problems. I didn't check whether the articles verified what they were being used for, but the title did match in all cases where it was given. ] (]) 22:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	::Thanks for the double-check, @], I must have browser issues or malware unrelated to the site. ]&nbsp;] 22:38, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::Just in case, I've gone through and made sure archive.is has a copy of all 14 (although I've replaced 1 with a copy of the book at the Internet Archive library). Archive.org seems to be forbidden by the site's ] but archive.is doesn't respect that so it works. ] (]) 00:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Suggested additions ==
	Suggested additions to reliable source list
	* ] (I was surprised it wasn't already there?)
	* ] (also Aussie)
	* ] (UK)
	* ]
	] (]) 18:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Unless someone is disputing it, there is a presumption of reliability for well known newsorgs. ] (]) 18:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:@], the ] list isn't a "reliable sources list". It just captures community consensus for sources that have been repeatedly questioned/discussed. ]&nbsp;] 18:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:As Schazjmd said, generally we don’t add things without there having been a discussion. RSP isn’t a complete list of RS, but an index and summary of previous discussions.
	:In the case of France24, they are generally reliable but I did recently read a pro-Azerbaijan spin piece from them. No one’s perfect.
	:Cheers, ] (]) 01:55, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Reliable sources from Africa ==
	Our perennial sources list seems to be missing an entire continent? They're are several huge English speaking countries in Africa, e.g. South Africa, surely we can find a few sources to include? ] (]) 18:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:They're assumed reliable if they have a reasonable editing policy and seem to be talking sense. They're only put in RSP if there's been questions about them a few times. ] (]) 18:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	:See ] and ]. ] (]) 19:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	== The Mindway Corporation ==
	A friend of mine recently remarked that all mention of this organization seems to have been scrubbed from the web. Curious, I looked for them on Misplaced Pages, and found that archived webpages from them were used as refs on articles related to '90's industrial/electronic band ]. This is the context I would have expected, but Mindway Corporation was a fan club that sort of developed into a cult centered around the band. They probably should not be being used a source even for simple things like track listings, which I assume would be available elsewhere. (note that there are a few other organizations with the same or similar names that do not seem to be related to this group) ] ] 22:52, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Blue Virginia for ] ==
	Blue Virginia is a popular political blog covering Virginia politics written by Lowell Feld (arguably a subject-matter expert in Virginia politics) since 2005. I view Blue Virginia as a reliable (albeit biased) source that is self-published by a recognized expert so requiring ] in certain uses.
	In addition to content written by him and a team of writers, they also provide daily news roundups with granular updates added by Feld in the comments (see for example, yesterday's ), arguably a limited form of coverage. These comments are used extensively in Virginia political articles as citations for endorsements (see for example, ]).
	] requires that for endorsements by individuals, they should "only include endorsements which have been covered by ] ] sources".
	While Blue Virginia/Feld is reliable and (in most cases) independent of the candidates/endorsers involved, is simply reposting endorsements is sufficient coverage to meet the ] standard or should such endorsements be removed?
	(FWIW: I think ] should be adjusted so that endorsements from notable figures in a district can be included with reliable sourcing even if not independent, but I am not sure how or where to go about getting consensus for such a change.) ] (]) 14:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	== Daily Tribune ==
	Hi,
	I am concerned with the reliability of this source https://lifestyle.tribune.net.ph/nhcp-celebrates-90-years-gears-up-for-centennial/
	Kindly comment whether the source is reliable or not. Thanks
	Best ] (]) 16:09, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			Cam Fraser - the Power and Pleasure of Pegging with Ruby Ryder: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0naA7WaumMhL1t5wE2vaj5?si=IFqLYzGzT_aQomGXWKvSww&nd=1&dlsi=3c896a210a7d4408
	:The source is used in the linked article https://en.wikipedia.org/Bataan_Provincial_Building ] (]) 16:11, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			Great American Sex Podcast with Sunny Megatron - Pegging with Ruby Ryder:https://sunnymegatron.com/ruby-ryder-pegging-paradise/
	== Predatory journal for ] ==
			Great American Sex Podcast with Sunny Megatron - Butt Stuff 201: Pegging & Vagus Nerve w/ Ruby Ryder: https://sunnymegatron.com/vagus-nerve-pegging/
	{{User|Elspamo4}} keeps reinstating a citation to a predatory journal in ], e.g. .
			Smart Sex, Smart Love with Dr Joe Kort - Ruby Ryder on Pegging - https://joekort.com/ruby-ryder-on-pegging/
	The so-called "American Journal of Environmental Engineering" (why an American journal would accept a Qatari submission is already a red flag) is published by ], one of the more horrendous predatory publishers out there.
			Please let me know if you have further questions or if I can help in any way - and if there is a better way to respond to this conversation.
	This is not a reputable source, nor a peer-review outlet, and the defense , does not make this paper reliable.
			With respect,
	I move that this paper is purged from Misplaced Pages, just like any other SAPUB papers, per ].
			Ruby Ryder ] (]) 19:37, 23 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			:I will quickly note that Sunny Megatron is an XBIZ Sexpert of the Year award according to our ] page, and is used as a reference elsewhere. ] is clinical director of The Center for Relationship and Sexual Health. So these aren't random peoplecasts. That does not establish, of course, what information you are to be cited for... and as others have, I suggest that you take the issue back to ] for fresh discussion. -- ] (]) 22:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	If it's true that the Doha Corniche "role as a gathering place, often referred to as the "urban ]", is integral to Doha's identity and social fabric", then there will be other, actually reliable sources, that will talk about it.
			::agreed. I think RubyRyder seems useful as an expert. their information could be used, if correctly attributed. ] (]) 23:07, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Thank you. These look like good sources. Ultimately the reliability of a source is dependent on the specific article text that it is being used to support, so your site still wouldn't be reliable to support a ], for instance, but it should be reliable to support general statements about pegging. ] (]) 01:56, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
			== NationalWorld.com ==
	&#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 20:37, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	:I've decided to self-revert since you raise a very good point that a non-predatory source should be easily found for such general statements about a prominent landmark. I won't re-add this reference or journal. ] (]) 21:09, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I don't see if this is a predatory journal. I see some blog websites talking bout SAP, but not better sources on it. Perhaps I am missing something. If it is predatory, it does not hurt in finding another source like a magazine or article saying similar things. It is getting harder to track these publishers.] (]) 21:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::SAPUB is obviously predatory . It's a junk outlet with fake impact factors. There's a reason we have them on our edit filter list. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 21:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			What do we think about being used for ]'s month of birth? Courtesy ping to {{yo|Diademchild}}.--<span style="background:#FF0;font-family:Rockwell Extra Bold">]]]</span> 19:04, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	== metalshockfinland ==
			:Based on ], not necessarily crap. ] (]) 21:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	Is the site a RS for heavy metal and/or biographies of musicians? The source of the dispute rests in ] where an editor argues the source is a “respected source of info” and it is . ] (]) 22:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
			:Remember that ] says full names or birth dates should be widely published by reliable sources and that the standard for inclusion isn't just verification. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 23:17, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

---

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Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context!

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RfC: NewsNation

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Misplaced Pages proposals Maths, science, and technology When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

What is the reliability of NewsNation?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Chetsford (talk) 19:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Survey (NewsNation)

• Option 2: Generally reliable for reporting not related to aviation, astronomy, or physics. Unreliable for reporting on these topics generally, and for UFOs specifically (including, but not limited to, shape-shifting Mantids, flying saucers, time-traveling psychonauts, human/space alien cross-breeding programs, the Majestic 12, and treaties/diplomacy with the Galactic Federation of Light).
  • NewsNation seems to have made an overt and conscious editorial decision to lean into UFOs for ratings purposes . In many cases, these stories are masked as conventional science reporting but with a heavy "/spooky event" frame. Ross Coulthart is NewsNation's UFO beat reporter and files most of its prolific reports on the paranormal. Coulthart appears to be a true believer and uses NewsNation to engage in space alien advocacy versus conventional forms of journalism.
    • In an interview on NewsNation on 13 December 2024 related to the 2024 Northeastern United States drone sightings, Coulthart said "... the White House is making completely false claims! The people of New Jersey are not alone"! . Multiple federal and state investigations, as well as independent evaluation by experts including Jamey Jacob and Mick West, all concluded sightings were misidentification of routine aerial and celestial objects.
    • Writing in The Skeptic, Ben Harris identifies Coulthart as one of a group of UFO celebrities, describing their approach thusly: "Drama is to the forefront; they ride their high horses, full of their own self-import, their truth, making demands of Congress – and mainstream media – who they think are ‘missing the story of a lifetime’."
    • He wrote a UFO book titled Plain Sight which Jason Colavito described as a "conspiracy narrative" and a "slipshod summary".
    • The Australian Skeptics gave Coulthart their "Bent Spoon Award" for “espousing UFO conspiracies, including unsubstantiated claims that world governments and The Vatican are hiding extraterrestrial alien bodies and spacecraft on Earth.”
    • The Australian Broadcasting Corporation did a TV special on Coulthart's reporting in which they closed by asking "Has Coutlhart gone crazy, or is he a visionary? while strongly implying the former.
    • The Sydney Morning Herald has described him as a "UFO truther" with "little appetite for scrutiny".
    • Coulthart seems to have had a leading role in promoting a debunked 60 Minutes (Australian TV program) investigation into an alleged child sex ring run by British politicians.
  • Beyond Coulthart, NewsNation reporters have other issues with UFOs:
    • In 2023, according to our own article on NewsNation (sourced to the Washington Post: ), the channel "was forced to issue corrections after incorrectly claiming that The Intercept had obtained leaked information regarding Grusch's mental health".
    • In December 2024, reporter Rich McHugh did a stand-up near LaGuardia Airport in New Jersey and showed an aerial object that he breathlessly (literally, he's panting the whole time) said "... was more sophisticated than I could ever imagine ... I couldn't believe what I was seeing". The thing he couldn't believe he was seeing was, according to Mick West's analysis, a Boeing 737 .

Chetsford (talk) 19:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 for topics outside UFOs, Option 3 for UFO coverage Personisinsterest (talk) 20:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2: Generally reliable for broad topics. They turn loony when covering UFOs. Don't consider them for UFO coverage. BarntToust 22:43, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 their mishandling of UFO topics suggests they're more interested in sensationalism than accuracy. Simonm223 (talk) 15:25, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 per Chetsford. – Anne drew (talk · contribs) 01:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 since I think their general reporting is reliable. Attribution may be a good alternative. Ramos1990 (talk) 08:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 for topics outside UFOs, Option 3 for UFO coverage. Compare WP:ROLLINGSTONE. feminist🩸 (talk) 08:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 why are we putting any stock in an organization known primarily for babbling about UFOs? This is a severe case of “broken clock” syndrome. Dronebogus (talk) 11:22, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 for topics outside UFOs, Option 3 for UFO coverage. - Amigao (talk) 00:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 I would go with Option 2 but their UFO coverage makes me consider Option 3. I think for anything outside of UFO-related topics they are generally reliable. Other sources should be cited. Frankserafini87 (talk) 01:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 for non-UFO coverage, Option 3 for UFO coverage. ミラP@Miraclepine 00:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion (NewsNation)

• For purposes of clarification, the reliability of NewsNation has previously come up in two different RSN discussions and two different article Talk page discussions. Beyond that, however, it's repeatedly invoked to source UFO articles to the point that constant re-litigation of its reliability via edit summaries is becoming a massive time sink. Chetsford (talk) 19:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Useage of Arabic-language sources in Battle of Ash-Shihr (1523)

This thread is opened at the request of @Kovcszaln6 following the dispute between me and @Javext in Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Battle of Ash-Shihr (1523) on the multiple issues regarding that article. I have translated the article from both the Arabic (My native language) and Portuguese (Using a translator) articles to try and include both POVs of the battle. Javext claims that the sources that I've used are completely unreliable and shouldn't be used on the article because he claims that:
1. The academic backgrounds of the writers of those sources are unknown (keeping in mind that they were written by Yemenis who have limited internet access), and
2. Yemeni state-controlled media outlets wrote them (also keeping in mind that Yemen is a poor and fractured state without any budget to have "state-controlled media outlets") Now, Javext has removed all the sources and text that they support from the article and used other sources (some of which I find no problems with using, although they provide little context compared to the other sources) and kept the sources that I've brought when I translated the Portuguese article. Special:diff/1266430566: This is the version of the article that has the Arabic sources and is the version that I want to keep and then expand with other sources that both I and Jav has used.
Special:diff/1266448873: This is the version that Jav wants to keep Sources used by the version that I want to keep (I have run them through Google Translate's website translator for yall to understand):

• (This one doesn't want to get translated using the website translator but it gets translated if you right-click and press "Translate to English" on chrome)

Extra source that I want to use after the dispute is resolved:

Abo Yemen✉ 15:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't speak directly to the content dispute but none of the links you posted are wiki-appropriate sources. They're amateur essays. Please use academic publications instead. If you can't find a reliable source that supports your viewpoint, that viewpoint doesn't belong on Misplaced Pages. GordonGlottal (talk) 22:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

There are contemporary Arabic-language descriptions of this battle, and I would expect appropriate sources to engage with them directly. One is translated into English by R. B. Serjeant in The Portuguese off the South Arabian Coast (1963), pp. 52-53, and compare note by C. F. Buckingham at ibid., pp. 171-172, citing Portuguese records. This also seems to be a relevant document. GordonGlottal (talk) 23:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

There are contemporary Arabic-language descriptions of this battle
WP:AGE MATTERS?
citing Portuguese records
That is one of the things that we were discussing in the dispute. We have enough Portuguese POV in Jav's revision. Plus did you see what the sources were citing in the revisions above Abo Yemen✉ 07:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I didn't say "cite these contemporary descriptions" but "expect appropriate sources to engage with them". If you want to account for non-Portuguese perception, the way to do it is find sources that discuss contemporary Arabic descriptions, not use modern amateur essays based on nothing. GordonGlottal (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

One example of another secondary source comparing the accounts (after C. F. Buckingham) is Subrahmanyam, Sanjay (1997). The Career and Legend of Vasco da Gama. pp. 290-291. (link) GordonGlottal (talk) 17:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

GordonGlottal, why do you think that? They look to be published sources at least.--Boynamedsue (talk) 07:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The independent arabia source cites a historian's account. Does that still count as unreliable?Abo Yemen✉ 15:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This is definitely the strongest source, I didn't see that you'd added it. The Independent is a solid newspaper, but specialist, technical sources are a requirement for this kind of disputed claim. I don't know who Bamousa is and google just turns up mentions of his education activism and participation in a literary society—can you find out anything about him? The basic thing is that there needs to be evidence, or a source saying it that we can assume would not be saying it without evidence. If there isn't any evidence there could still be a "modern legend" section based on these sources, I think, because it is interesting how the event is being discussed. GordonGlottal (talk) 17:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I tried searching for info about him online but there is limited info about him as Yemen doesn't have the best internet and the guy is really old to care about posting about himself online (Apparently he had been documenting the history there since the Quaiti Sultanate was a thing according to a Facebook post made by a high school that he attended). He is cited by multiple Arabic language sources, like the Independent (ofc) and al-Ayyam Aden (linked above), and is mentioned in others . He also published a book about the city of Shihr . He was also visited by the minister of education of Yemen in 2023

References

1. Machine translation: Mr. Mohammed Omar Bamusa, a native of Al-Shahr and a graduate of the third class of Al-Mukalla High School for Boys (now Bin Shihab High School for Boys)
   High School Flags
   Tuesday, September 17, 2024
   After years of parting, Abu Bakr Bin Shihab High School for Boys in Mukalla embraced Mr. Mohammed Omar Bamoussa, who graduated on the educational ladder for years and is now at the age of retirement. He visited the high school and in his gaze with passion and love for the past years, he climbed the stairs of the high school to the second floor to the office of the principal Mr. Saeed Ahmed Al-Amari, who welcomed him warmly and said that this visit gave us a boost and moral support, and the visit for Mr. Bamoussa was to ask about the old administrators, services and guards who were who were in the period of the sixties and seventies, but unfortunately the administration could not answer this and invites everyone who has information about them to raise it quickly, as Mr. Bamoussa has been working for years on writing a book about the beginning of education in Hadramawt since the time of the Qaitian Sultanate in the sixties and the beginning of the seventies, and he made a very important statement that the first principal of the high school is Mr. Karama Bammin from Tarim and then came after him Mr. Al-Sudani Al-Taloudi and this was a surprise for us and he confirmed this in his book that will see the light after completion of it.
   May God prolong his life and give him health and wellness to provide us with important information about the history of education in Hadramawt.
   The high school administration thanks Mr. Mohammed Bamoussi for this visit and this effort exerted by him for this wonderful work, and wishes the officials in the Ministry of Education, the governorate office and the local authority to adopt such people who raise the slogan of education and the slogan of Hadramawt, the land of science, knowledge and culture.

Abo Yemen✉ 19:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah basically, I don't see this as proof of anything. I've had a few other conversations on here about whether it's valid to include something based on an academic commenting to a reporter, and it just doesn't seem like a reliable genre of source. Even if Bamousa turned out to have sterling credentials. One of the problems is that the comment is often well outside the expert's field of expertise. Reporters don't want to call 1,000 different sources for each niche subject, so they rely on a small number of people who are willing to comment on almost anything, and these academics, who might be ultra-rigorous in another context, just regurgitate the same loose thinking anyone else would. Bamousa is a local retiree who is very active in the literary society and wrote a biography of a 20th-century bureaucrat/writer, but he probably doesn't know any more about 16th-century history than anyone else. If there's some proof of this narrative, it should be possible to find someone referencing it directly. Those references may exist but not be digitized, which is frustrating, but until one is found I think the page has to treat the contemporary evidence we do have as definitive.GordonGlottal (talk) 22:38, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Uh huh sure, but cant we use those sources for sections on the article that aren't related to the events of the battle, like the Special:diff/1266430566#Background Special:diff/1266430566#Losses and Special:diff/1266430566#Cultural significance sections? After all, some information that is still in the infobox was sourced from those sources. I have also found a book about the history of the city Internet Archive a txt version of the book that can get machine translated can it be used? (Hijri dates are used in that book) Abo Yemen✉ 07:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know anything about these publications. Judging from the material itself, the authors do not possess any level of technical expertise and are not basing their judgements either on any form of evidence, or on any previously published scholarship. GordonGlottal (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I have been really busy these last few days and wasn't able to respond to Abo Yemen. Thank you for your participation in this debate. Javext (talk) 22:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Javext If you're able, I think it would be a great contribution if you could copy out and translate whatever description is in this letter, which is the only primary source I could find, and then put it in a quote box or etc. as appropriate for a primary source. I know the letter contains relevant info from the catalog description but it doesn't seem to have been published anywhere and I don't read even modern Portuguese. It's probably just a few words but we may get lucky! GordonGlottal (talk) 00:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi, @GordonGlottal. Unfortunately I am not able to translate the letter itself, since it is very difficult to even understand which words were used, I can only go by the catalog description you gave, which translated into English looks like this:

"Number 41 - Letter from Henrique de Macedo to the King, written from Goa on October 22, 1523, states his services in India , his campaign with D. Luis to the strait, capturing Al-Shihr, and how important it would be to conquer Diu." Javext (talk) 15:55, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

capturing Al-Shihr
hm didn't you say the goal was just to sack the city and go? Abo Yemen✉ 16:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I said it was a strong possibility, considering that it was very normal for those types of Portuguese actions of piracy against Muslim coastal cities and the fact that Al-Shihr was a very common spot for the Portuguese to plunder.

I also stated that if there was a reliable source that stated otherwise, I would accept it. Javext (talk) 20:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Well now we know that this isn't the case and the portuguese had failed to capture the city Abo Yemen✉ 05:30, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Source? If you are going to send those Arabic amateur essays please don't even bother responding. Javext (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

"Number 41 - Letter from Henrique de Macedo to the King, written from Goa on October 22, 1523, states his services in India, his campaign with D. Luis to the strait, capturing Al-Shihr, (Never happened btw) and how important it would be to conquer Diu."
Abo Yemen✉ 15:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

"Never happened" isn't actually a source. Just a reminder that because they captured the city doesn't mean they retained it. Javext (talk) 15:35, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

You cannot prove something that didn't happen. Do you have any source saying that they captured the city? Abo Yemen✉ 15:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

All of your sources said that they sacked the city, but nothing about capturing it was mentioned Abo Yemen✉ 15:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I do. The Portuguese captured the city and sacked it. Once again, this doesn't mean they retained it. Javext (talk) 18:41, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

capturing a city != sacking it
your initial sources said nothing about the Navy capturing the city but the letters say that they captured it. Something must be wrong here Abo Yemen✉ 18:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Once a gain they captured the city and THEN sacked it. Keep in mind that doesn't mean they kept control of it. I am not going to repeat this again. Javext (talk) 00:07, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Now show me where in your sources does it say that Abo Yemen✉ 06:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

You were just denying that this happened after I showed you the sources, why are you asking this now? Didn't I just give them above? Javext (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

What sources about capturing a city did you show me? Those letters clearly show that the portuguese wanted to capture the city and they failed as we have no proof of them being there after the battle was over. But did they lie to whoever they sent this letter to? Abo Yemen✉ 07:43, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Look bro, the letter doesn't state they failed, it states the Portuguese captured the city and then sacked it. For the fourth time, this DOES NOT mean they retained control of the city. Javext (talk) 19:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@GordonGlottal so we can finish with and archive this, can we use those sources in anything other than the battle section? like the other sections that I've mentioned being deleted here #c-Abo_Yemen-20250108072200-GordonGlottal-20250107223800 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 15:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

In general I think we've established that there is currently no way of including any claim which cannot be directly traced to the 16th-century Portuguese histories or the Hadrami chronicles (which agree). This is because no source cites any other form of evidence, and because it represents the approach of English-language academic books. I have not reviewed the details and I do not know which claims qualify, but you're free to add anything you can find in an appropriate source. GordonGlottal (talk) 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

not even a legacy section like the one you proposed? 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 06:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

RfC: Geni.com, MedLands, genealogy.eu

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The following genealogy sources are currently considered Generally unreliable at WP:RSP (A), or in repeated inquiries at WP:RSN (B and C):

• A: Geni.com
• B: Medieval Lands / MedLands by Charles Cawley
• C: genealogy.eu / genealogy.euweb.cz by Marek Miroslav

Long after being listed / labelled generally unreliable, these unreliable sources are still being (re-)added to hundreds to tens of thousands of articles.

They should be:

• Option 1: listed as Generally unreliable (change nothing to A; add B and C at WP:RSP as such)
• Option 2: Deprecated (list them as such at WP:RSP)
• Option 3: Blacklisted (not mutually exclusive with option 1 or 2)

NLeeuw (talk) 23:38, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Background (Geni.com, MedLands, genealogy.eu)

• A: See "Geni.com" at WP:RSPSOURCES.
• B: See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility#Have we got lists of reliable and unreliable websites for genealogical research?, in particular subsection #genealogy.eu, where this RfC for the 3 sources in question was prepared together with @ActivelyDisinterested. The other sources discussed there fall outside the scope of this RfC.
• C: See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 405#fmg.ac (Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) (Medieval Lands by Charles Cawley) of May 2023 (also initiated by me, with ActivelyDisinterested's assistance). NLeeuw (talk) 23:38, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Preliminaries

Probably need to add the website Genealogics.org to the list of unreliable sources. It also uses Misplaced Pages articles which would be WP:CIRC. --Kansas Bear 23:45, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

AD and I have decided to limit ourselves to these three sources for now in order to prevent a WP:TRAINWRECK. But it could be a good follow-up. NLeeuw (talk) 23:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

That reminds me: maybe I should just have three separate subsections for Survey per source? That would make the voting process much easier. The voting format I'm proposing might be confusing. NLeeuw (talk) 23:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

PS: Done. Better now before the first vote comes in. NLeeuw (talk) 23:55, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you clarify for us why these sites are being grouped together? I'm only familiar with Geni. GordonGlottal (talk) 00:13, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you disputing that they are unreliable? If so, why? If not, why waste time with this RFC? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

These are websites that previous discussions have decided are unreliable. However due to their nature they are continually readded to articles. I believe NLeeuw is looking to get them deprecated or potentially blacklisted to stop that. For a similar instance see WP: Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 453#RfC: Universe Guide. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Read Background: B. NLeeuw (talk) 00:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't really see how this survey can change anything for geni.com? I tried clicking on the links but there is a lot to read. I don't want to cause a major distraction but I also notice a remark there that Burkes and Debretts are generally reliable. That's certainly not true for old editions which many editors are tempted to use. But even for new editions, the reliability depends upon the period etc. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:27, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Survey A: Geni.com

Deprecate. User-generated junk that should be flagged when introduced. JoelleJay (talk) 05:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate.Question. Isn't it already deprecated?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate A user generated source that just keeps getting readded, deprecation will warn users against adding it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:10, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Unsure. Some doubt about deprecation as RSP says that primary sources uploaded to geni can be used as primary sources here. Is there a way of communicating that to users rather than giving a blanket warning? (I might be a little ignorant of how deprecation works in practice!) BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate. Really bad. Needs to go away.—Alalch E. 00:07, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Invalid RFC/No change - giving only options here that are highly negative is not a neutral stance. And there is no specific evidences shown or reason why this is even coming up or needs that all previous RSP should be declared invalid. (See discussions RSP discussions here ). Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:45, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

Survey B: Medieval Lands / MedLands by Charles Cawley

Deprecate, per background discussion. JoelleJay (talk) 05:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Comment. I think this source has been often discussed in a superficial way, together with other sources, which does not always lead to a clear perspective. This is not like the other two. It collects a lot of useful extracts from primary sources than can be helpful for getting a grip on a topic. Although it is basically the work of one editor, this editor was assigned to do this for an organization which does make some efforts to maintain a reputation for quality. (The FMG publishes a journal, and it posts some online corrections to Keats-Rohan's reference works for the 11th and 12th century, and she has noted those helpful efforts in print.) On the other hand, Medlands does not use secondary material very much, so it is normally not going to the type of source we would use on WP on its own for anything non-obvious. I note these complications because I see that sources like Ancestry.com and Findmypast also have special notes about how they can sometimes have useful primary materials. To give a practical example of what might go wrong, what I saw in the past whenever this source was discussed, is that it was even deleted from external links sections and so on. I think this is a source that can be used for external links at the very least. I feel hesitant to say that it should NEVER EVER be used even in the main body to be honest, although I don't use it on WP.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate Crawley has no academic background in history and MedLands is self-published. It is not published by FMG only hosted by them. That it contains a lot of useful information is not the same as it having a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, something it doesn't have. Deprecation isn't blacklisting, editors are warned against adding it not blocked. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:18, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested: I see the fine print, but we know editors who need simple rules don't understand fine print in practice. The text for deprecated says "the source is generally prohibited". I'm thinking these sorts of decisions should be made if they reduce the number of useless pseudo-legal debates, and not increase them. (In reality the main principle we should always follow is that good editors will judge based on context IMHO. There are so many possible contexts, and trying to make rules to cover them all is not always a good idea.) Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:53, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Editors who know the fine print will be the ones using the source correctly, and will know how to handle the situation. The issue is that editors who don't know keep adding this as a reference to support content, and the many discussions on the source show they isn't support for that. Adding a warning when editors post will at least get editors to ask why they are getting the warning, and help them understand the situation.

Deprecation of this source will reduce the pointless pseudo-legal debates, by reducing the problem of the source being repeatedly readded. Editors should use their own good judgement, but as repeated discussion about this source have shown that isn't happening. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:01, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes in effect it would reduce the possibly of any discussion, good or bad, by effectively making the source not worth discussing, or am I misunderstanding? The fine print would be irrelevant in practice, and that is my concern in this case.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion has been against using this source for at least a decade, and deprecation doesn't stop anyone wanting to question from discussing it. Deprecation doesn't in anyway stop editors from discussing anything. What effect this will have is to warn editors when they try to add the source, anything else is as you say your misunderstanding. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I think we both know exactly what I mean about what will happen in reality when WP goes into bot mode. I am just saying that there is a cost to rule making.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:11, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes the cost of not having to continuously patrol for this source and have the same discussion about it's reliability again and again.

Separately before the two of us fill the survey section with our disagreement (mea culpa), should we move this discussion to the Discussion section? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:17, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Generally unreliable. I first read the definitions of the categories we are voting on. (I hope others do also.) Generally unreliable is the one which says this: "questionable in most cases. The source may lack an editorial team, have a poor reputation for fact-checking, fail to correct errors, be self-published" I think that's the accurate description in this case. It also seems to match what others are arguing, and so I note with some concern that there might be misunderstandings about what "deprecate" really means on WP. How I read it, deprecation would only allow use for self-description (for example if there was a Medlands article), and otherwise it would be prohibited. To repeat what I wrote elsewhere, I am not advising editors to use this website, but its collection of medieval primary sources is possibly going to be useful here and there to someone, and I don't think bots (or bot-like editors) should be sent out to "attack" without looking at context every time someone mentions it.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, it may be useful as a reference work, or as introductory material for the interested reader, but it shouldn't be cited as a "source". Just like Misplaced Pages itself isn't a "source", but a collection of sources. The "Rurik dynasty" case outlined at the May 2023 MedLands RSN shows just how careless Cawley is in using sources, e.g. taking known problematic primary sources that he knows may be of little factual significance at face value just because he finds them "interesting" (but is reproduced by way of interest), and citing private emails from others as "sources" that we can't verify. Surely our readers deserve a higher standard that this. NLeeuw (talk) 14:45, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps you can explain what real disadvantages the Generally unreliable category would bring? I doubt we disagree on much here. But one idea which is guiding me is that generally speaking, I don't think we can or should try to predict every case, and write rules for everything. We should only break the basic, proven WP way of working when we really have to, and then only as far as we have to. By this I mean sources should be judged according to the core content policy, in the context of specific examples, which we can't predict. So my approach here is to read the definitions of the categories we can choose from, and pick the accurate one. I think I did it correctly. Deprecation seems to be for extreme cases where we literally accept that WP editors will now sometimes beat each other with a virtual stick if anyone dares post such a source, even in an external links section. I can understand how this might be for the best when we look at Geni, however... --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Generally reliable, in my experience. Furthermore, it provides footnotes to almost every claim that one can use instead of linking to the website. Ghirla 16:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate per ActivelyDisinterested.—Alalch E. 00:10, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• No Change - no entry to RSP needed and seems has been accepted. This just is not something that often comes up for question and seems has not been hard to figure out the nature of so it also does not need a RSP entry. Yet as can be seen by this search, it is used and that seems evidence that common view *is* de facto RS by usage. Really seems like just declaring all those edits wrong is not a useful thing. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:03, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

Survey C: genealogy.eu / genealogy.euweb.cz by Marek Miroslav

Deprecate. SPS that is far too widely cited already, probably because the url looks like it's some official site. JoelleJay (talk) 05:52, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Which website were you looking at? If you type genealogy.eu you seem to be redirected to a completely different website which I GUESS is not the one we are meant to be discussing?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

genealogy.euweb.cz by Marek Miroslav, which advertises itself as genealogy.eu and has often been cited as such on English Misplaced Pages, even though "genealogy.eu" these days indeed redirects to a different website (https://en.filae.com/v4/genealogie/HomePage.mvc/welcome; which is outside the scope of this RfC). NLeeuw (talk) 11:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate. Another self published source that keeps getting readded, deprecation will warn editors against doing so. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:20, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate. I am surprised this one is being used a lot. I have not come across it yet I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew Lancaster (talk • contribs) 13:54, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Comment. The site is useful for quick checks. In general, it's a faithful transcription of such classic sources as the Europäische Stammtafeln, Dworzaczek's Genealogia (Warszawa, 1958), etc. It's better to refer our readers to the published sources, of course (if one has access to them). By the way, the site has not been updated since 2005. Ghirla 16:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, it may be useful for quick checks, but it shouldn't be cited as a "source". NLeeuw (talk) 19:20, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

• Deprecate. The site, from what I can tell, doesn't tell us where they get the information. For example; Foix. --Kansas Bear 21:37, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
  • This one (like most others) seems to be adapted from Paul Theroff's site here. And Theroff said more than once that his main source is the Europäische Stammtafeln. Ghirla 09:06, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

    Well, that is neither obvious nor transparent. Plus, it could be a copyvio if they just steal or plagiarise each other's work. NLeeuw (talk) 09:10, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate. WP:SPS. Deprecation will have a positive effect. And while it's always possible that someone in the know, who's really into genealogy, has the ability of figuring out out how the operator of this website makes it have the content that it has, that's not useful for determining reliability.—Alalch E. 00:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• No change to either of these - seems this is referring to two different sources, both of which are somewhat widely used in WP and neither of which seems suitable for an RSP entry. Just not seeing sufficient case or benefit from any entry either. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:13, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion (Geni.com, MedLands, genealogy.eu)

@ActivelyDisinterested: my apologies also. To be clear, I respect your concern, and I think I understand it. I think we've conveyed our concerns, and laid out some pros and cons, and background principles. I'm not stressed about that. I think its a point of getting the balance right. In practical reality the three sources should not normally be used, and I see no big disagreements. I just think the difference between the two categories offered is (or should be) meaningful, and I wanted to make that clear. I am not really disagreeing with any other specific point.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Although I disagree I can understand you position. It's to easy to get stuck in disagreement spirals are part of RFCs. Let's see if anyone else brings any new ideas. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:09, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I previously commented that a seperate warning for generally unreliable sources would be helpful, for ones that are problematicly readded on a regular basis would be useful. That way a warning would appear but wouldn't come with the baggage of deprecation. At the moment deprecation is the only resource available, but it is a somewhat blunt hammer. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested Thanks for restoring the discussion from the archive; it evidently was not yet closed. It would seem that we've got a clear result though. Should I request a third party to formally close it with a conclusion, or how does this go with RfCs? NLeeuw (talk) 18:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The {{RFC}} tag was missing, which would have added "DoNotArchiveUntil.." to the header to stop it from being archived. I've add the RFC tag which will list in for every to see (not just those to happen across it on RSN). I suggest waiting and seeing if any more comments come in, as they editors have taken part yet. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:04, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• I don't see the point to this. I can see there being concerns about quality of niche sources, but do not see a reason why a RSP entry should be made or benefit for trying it. Why should the source choice of hundreds or thousands of editors at thousands of entries be disregarded ? How can they all be effectively replaced ? I'm thinking that their de facto opinion has to be given great weight and that all those cites would either stay or that holes would be made in the affected articles -- so any RSP entry seems just pointless or causing lots of trouble rather than making any improvement. Am I missing some magic wand or an urgent concern worth the trauma ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:26, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

RfC: Jacobin

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Which of the following best describes the reliability of Jacobin (magazine)?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate?

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Survey: Jacobin

• Option 2 I am opposed to the use of WP:GREL and think that no media outlet, no matter how reliable, should be listed higher than option 2. With that being said, I would list New York Times or the CBC in precisely the same way and I don't believe that any of the complainants have demonstrated in any way that Jacobin is less reliable, per Misplaced Pages's standards, than any other American news media outlet. I am deeply concerned that many of the complaints are about "bias" when reliability does not include a political compass test. This is not grounds to treat a source as unreliable. Simonm223 (talk) 16:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2/3, bias is one thing, getting things down right incorrect is another. As was demonstrated in the pre-discussion, the notion around the housing stock was truly an egregious error. This was not a typo, or a miscalculation, this was bias that creeped so heavily into the newsroom as to make the writers push a narrative, instead of report on the facts. When that happens, "Generally unreliable" or at minimum, "Additional considerations" makes sense as the guidance when using this source. I do not think further deprecation is warranted though since the reporters seem to be of a mixed quality, some are more diligent than others and the bias merging into wanton disregard for facts varies there too. The problem is, we rate sources, not just individual writers, and therefore as far as a source rating goes, "Option 2" or "Option 3" then makes the most logical sense. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  It was corrected. Your entire case is based on a single incident where a single writer made a single mistake. And it was fixed. There is absolutely no grounds for "Generally unreliable" on the basis of presented evidence. Simonm223 (talk) 16:51, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  It was corrected only after significant outside pressure and even then the correction was weak and inaccurate. The guy who wrote the article was explicitly mocking the people who pointed out his error and accusing them of something along the lines of being corporate shills. It also wasn’t a single incident as they publish nonsense regarding Russia and Ukraine, including and up to outright conspiracy theories, pretty regularly. It simply is not a reliable source, however much one agrees with their editorial stance. Volunteer Marek 19:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  So you agree with Iljhgtn's conspiracy theory that this was the purposeful result of pushing bias not an error? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I don’t see any “conspiracy theories” from anyone here, including User:Iljhgtn and your attempts to characterize a pretty reasonable statement (“bias that creeped” in) as such are kind of offensive and disingenuous. Can you make an argument without making false and insulting accusations against others? Volunteer Marek 01:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    You misquote the editor (to your benefit), for someone so interested in errors supposedly motivated by bias that seems odd... In context its clearly stronger than that "This was not a typo, or a miscalculation, this was bias that creeped so heavily into the newsroom as to make the writers push a narrative, instead of report on the facts." when nothing suggests that this was the result of narrative pushing (thats how you push a narrative either, as you've pointed out although lingusitically similar its an embarrassing and obvious error). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    • You literally accused another editor, without basis in fact, of pushing “conspiracy theory” as a rhetorical device on your part to discredit and debase their views. You have absolutely no room to accuse others of, according to you, “misquoting” (which I did not do). And your attempts to litigate the meaning of “narrative pushing” (of course the article was trying to push a narrative! It was an opinion piece! That’s what opinion pieces do - this one just did it with false facts) are just typically tiresome. Volunteer Marek 01:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

      You keep dancing around... Do you really believe that the information was changed to push a narrative? (and remember that such a specific claim about a living person falls under BLP, so if the answer is yes a source needs to be provided) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

      No , I’m not. I’m simply asking you to refrain from trying to falsely characterize other people’s comments as “conspiracy theories” in a cheap attempt to delegitimize them since they’re clear nothing of the sort. Not everything you disagree with is a “conspiracy theory”. In this particular case, the article clearly had false info in it. No one has ever said that “information was changed” (as if on purpose) so please stop pretending otherwise. What was said was that “bias creeped in” which I think is a fair characterization. So please quit it with the strawman’ing. Volunteer Marek 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

      I am pretty shocked by these accusations if true, and would ask we WP:FOC. I believe @Horse Eye's Back is a good editor and contributor to these discussions normally though, so I think I must be missing something or a miscommunication may have occurred. I will give them time and space to explain if they feel explanation is warranted. I sure would appreciate it. Iljhgtn (talk) 17:34, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

      Its you who needs to provide a source to substantiate your allegations against a living person. ""This was not a typo, or a miscalculation, this was bias that creeped so heavily into the newsroom as to make the writers push a narrative, instead of report on the facts." is a BLP violation unless a source is provided or the author drops dead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  And what is your source for that? Nobody else is saying that this was the result of bias, the sources say that "third largest corporate owner of housing" became "owns a third of housing" which is a very understandable mistake. You appear to have constructed your own conspiracy theory around this incident. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Im sorry but “third largest owner” turning into “owns one third of all housing stock” is NOT an “understandable mistake”. It misstates the actual fact by a factor of 500. Maybe if this was like a student in some freshmen class using AI to write a paper that would be “understandable” (and still get an F) but this is supposed to be a professional, who’s job it is to get this stuff right and this is supposed to be a serious organization that has an editorial board that does fact checking. Which they obviously didn’t do. Volunteer Marek 19:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Its not math so the factor that it mistates it by is irrelevant, they are much more similar statements as written and to me (someone who works with the writing of other human beings every day) it is entirely understandable. That sort of error is made by every major and minor publication, it’s how they handle it which counts and here it was handled well. You can of course respond to this with a source which says that this is a major error, but I don't think that such a source exists (if it does I couldn't find it) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Whats “not math”? The difference between .0006 and .33? You sure? Volunteer Marek 01:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  And let’s see these “every major and minor publications” that make these kinds of error. Volunteer Marek 01:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I note the failure to provide the requested source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Right back at you. Volunteer Marek 01:59, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    , your turn and no stonewalling now provide the source or go away. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    • Lol, those are standard corrections for minor misstatements not exaggerations of something by a factor of several hundred to push a narrative and then mocking and attacking people who point out the error and then putting up a half assed note. By your standard Daily Mail and Breitbart (both unreliable) would count as RS since they too have issued corrections in the past. No, reliable publications do not make errors of this magnitude and when they publish corrections they directly address any mistakes. Breitbart, Daily Mail or Jacobin unfortunately don’t do that. Volunteer Marek 03:08, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

      Your source that this was "exaggerations of something by a factor of several hundred to push a narrative" and not simply an error is what? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I have to say I question your judgment in supporting option 3 "generally unreliable" over Jacobin publishing and then retracting a single erroneous sentence, and for having a bias/narrative/agenda, when you also !voted option 1 "generally reliable" for The Heritage Foundation which routinely publishes fabricated information without retraction. Could you kindly articulate how an admittedly biased outlet with a team of fact checkers is apparently significantly worse than a think tank that churns out misinformation and disinformation (and has a team of paid staff working around the clock to target, dox, and threaten Misplaced Pages editors)?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1 A screenshot of a tweet documenting an already corrected error is insufficient to depreciate a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamaliel (talk • contribs) 16:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

There are a lot more issues about Jacobin than just a tweet, and include more recent topics after the last RfC like the Russian invasion of Ukraine. --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I do not see that in the above discussion, can you link to any discussion of this? Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 17:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: Mostly Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 8#Jacobin and at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 351#Rfc: Jacobin (magazine). Kind regards,

Thank you for the links. I will repost once I've read through those discussions. Gamaliel (talk) 18:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2 at the very least, change current assessment. It might be easier to comment if editors agree or not to change the current category. My position is based on coverage that mixes opinion with facts and its use of unreliable sources, some of which have been deprecated by this noticeboard (like The Grayzone). I went into more detail about this at Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 8#Jacobin and at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 351#Rfc: Jacobin (magazine). --NoonIcarus (talk) 16:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 (intext attribution) WP:RSBIAS and WP:RSOPINION cover most of the points here. Jacobin publishes opinions peice that should have intext attribution. This is how they are used in the large amount of WP:USEBYOTHERS that Jacobin also has. I may not like Jacobin very much but bias, opinion, or minor mistakes do not make a source unreliable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 Context matters: "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable." The example given was a mistake in a book review, cubsequently corrected, about how much housing stock Blackstone owned. No reasonable editor would use this review as a source for an article on housing or Blackstone and more than one would use a reliable source on U.S. housing for an article about 19th century French poetry. TFD (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1-ish Jacobin are clearly a biased source but they are also clearly as reliable for facts as any other major WP:NEWSORG. When they make mistakes, they correct themselves, and that improves their reliability, it doesn't hurt it. Loki (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2: additional considerations/bad RFC - based on the discussion above, evidently there's some kind of social media uproar about some thing that Jacobin published and later corrected. It's poor timing to hold an RFC on reliability both when emotions are high and when it's in response to an isolated incident, both of which are true here. But ignoring that, it seems (again from the discussion above) that Jacobin published something that was egregiously incorrect, then retracted or corrected it. That's pretty much the standard we expect of reliable publications: errors are compatible with reliability, it's how the publication responds to and corrects errors that determines reliability in this context. Media Bias/Fact Check gives Jacobin a "high" reliability score of 1.9 (out of 10, lower scores are better), which is in the ballpark of the New York Times (1.4) and Washington Post (2.1). However, they also give it a "left bias" rating of -7 (a 20-point scale with 0 as completely unbiased), which is on the edge of their extreme ratings. Editors should consider attribution, and/or balancing this source's POV against publications more to the right. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 17:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2/3 While BIAS usually covers issues like, it may not be entirely sufficient for advocacy media, which includes Jacobin. While Jacobin is a fine publication and I've sourced it myself, the reality is it does not usually report Who/What/Why but almost exclusively publishes explainers and analysis pieces that have a designed structure. For instance, How Biden Embraced Trump’s Terror Smear Against Cuba is not an editorial or opinion piece, it's presented as straight news reporting in the form of an explainer article. But, as an encyclopedia, we obviously can't start injecting artistic wordsets like "terror smear" into articles. So merely saying that BIAS can cover the case of Jacobin is not sufficient. For the purposes of encyclopedia writing, there will never be anything chronicled by Jacobin that is appropriate for WP which we can't find a superior source for elsewhere. They don't do spot news, data journalism, or investigative reporting, which are the three ways we use newsgathering media to reference articles. Simply looking at the current issue, I don't see a single story that is actually reporting things. Each article is an opinion piece lightly packaged as an explainer. So, while I don't think Jacobin is "unreliable" per se, I don't see any value of using it for the very scope-limited purpose of encyclopedia-writing. Chetsford (talk) 18:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 for facts and 2/inline attribution otherwise for articles that are mainly opinion. The hoohah over an article that was actually about Mark Fisher and since corrected such that it doesn't even mention Blackstone seems like a one off. Selfstudier (talk) 18:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Nothing in the above discussion or that I've seen in the last year leads me to deviate from my !vote in the previous RfC which was this: Option 2: mostly a partisan opinion source usable with attribution if noteworthy, but occasionally publishes well-researched pieces by experts in their fields, on topics that might not be covered in more mainstream sources, in particular on the history of the left or on socialist theory. I also think that the closing of the last RfC, and in particular green flagging on RSP, did not reflect the consensus of the discussion, as I argued when this came up on this board in 2023: I have long been unhappy with the RSP summary of the many RSN discussions of this source, where the consensus has clearly been much more negative than the summary. It is clear that several editors have major issues with its use in specific areas (e.g. Russia/Ukraine, Venezuela) and that this should be flagged, and that it publishes content by a few conspiracy thinkers (Branko Marcetic was mentioned in the last discussion, McEvoy flagged here) and again this isn't highlighted in RSP. So I'd favour a rewrite of the RSP and possibly a change from green to yellow as a better reflection of the community consensus. In short: I think we need to approach it in a much more case by case basis. BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 My assessment hasn't changed from last time, jacobin publishes mostly opinion so this is largely a moot point and the rest of what they publish often contradicts itself—blindlynx 18:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• 1 or 2, I think that most of the time they should be used with attribution but they're generally reliable enough that I don't think we should be requiring attribution. I also question the need for a new RfC... It doesn't seem like there has been anything substantial since last time so this shouldn't have been opened. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Weak option 2 per above voters (especially AD and Bob), but I won't die on that hill if the consensus ultimately feels differently. Strong oppose option 3, though, for somewhat obvious reasons. The Kip 18:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1/2 - I don't like Jacobin. They read to me like the socialist equivalent of Christian rock. But they have an editor, publisher and corrections, and I'm reasonably sure they're not actually liars. It's an opinion outlet, like a leftist analogue of Reason. I'm not convinced coverage in Jacobin connotes notability. So I'd give them a strong "considerations apply" - attribute, not ideal for notability - David Gerard (talk) 19:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1/2 Jacobin's fine. It's left-leaning, but it doesn't cook up facts or make shit up. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 3 or 4 They publish outright falsehoods and when they issue corrections these are weak and weaselly. The recent completely absurd claim in one of their articles that Blackstone owns 33% of US single family housing stock is an example (it’s actually 1/10 of 1%). Whether you’re sympathetic to their editorial position is irrelevant. Garbage is garbage and facts are facts and as an encyclopedia we can’t rely on click bait nonsense for sources. Volunteer Marek 19:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1, with attribution for analysis and opinion pieces. The Blackstone mistake was bad, and the author's petulant attitude upon being corrected leaves much to be desired. But the error was corrected relatively promptly, and they have an editorial team on staff. I'm not in favor of downgrading a source based on a single mistake. However, Jacobin has an explicit editorial stance that informs nearly all of its articles, and if it's used for more than straightforward facts, it should probably be attributed as e.g. "the socialist magazine Jacobin". I'm open to changing my view if others can demonstrate a more sustained pattern of errors or falsehoods. Astaire (talk) 20:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 (with caveats) due to the lack of developments since the last RfC which could actually change the conclusion of general reliability, as opposed to demonstrating fallibility or bias. I do have some sympathy with the no media outlet, no matter how reliable, should be listed higher than option 2 position articulated above, but I think that comes down to how we interpret "generally reliable" in practice. In other words, "additional considerations" always apply, in principle. The difference between option 1 and option 2 comes down to how likely we expect those "additional considerations" to be of practical relevance, and how exactly we should address them. XOR'easter (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1, it doesn't seem anything has changed since the last RfC. Corrections and retractions is what a reliable source is expected to do and is a sign of reliability. Mistakes which are far greater than this are commonplace across the array of reliable sources (what matters is whether there are corrections or not) nor does partisanship equate to unreliability. Here the error appears to be about what's more or less a single sentence, an ancillary point or side-note in an opinion piece which has been corrected since. It should be treated no different a manner than any other openly partisan neworgs such as Reason (RSP entry). There is no requirement for reliable sources to be "neutral" or for the matter any standard that suggests newsorgs with an explicitly stated ideological position are any better or worse in matters of reliability than newsorgs that don't have an explicitly stated ideological position. WP:NEWSORG and WP:BIASED are quite clear. 

Though the standard disclaimers apply which are to check for whether what they publish has due weight for inclusion (not an issue of reliability), use in-text attribution with their political position made apparent when quoting opinion and that the context always matters. That there is a subreddit post critical of a error that was corrected is no basis for determining reliability of sources on Misplaced Pages or starting an RfC, so this is also a Bad RfC. This discussion has been had at a much greater depth in the previous RfC where it was shown that the magazine in question has quite significant use by others and affirmatory coverage from reliable secondary source demonstrating that they generally have a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" which doesn't needs to be rehashed. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 20:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Option 1: Bad RfC + L + Ratio Creating this RfC immediately after some sort of ostensible social media outrage (ex. I nominated David Joyner (business executive) for deletion not long after the Killing of Brian Thompson, and people got so upset that they brigaded it via external social media) seems like a bad idea. It's been made clear in the past that Jacobin has a perspective (like literally any media outlet) but don't sacrifice factual accuracy to get there. My previous vote remains true: "While it wears its political perspective on its sleeve, it has proven itself time and again in its robust fact-checking. The issue with conservative and reactionary sources on the WP:RSP isn't that they have a bias – it's that they constantly express said bias through the use of provable mis- and disinformation. Jacobin does not sacrifice factual accuracy for the sake of a bias."

I would say the same of any other outlet whose perspective coexists peacefully with actual facts. The sort of neoliberalism adopted by American news outlets which we categorize as generally reliable (correctly so) isn't some sort of default worldview that needs to be treated as sacred and less biased than any other. If we're allowed to point to a single incident, then I could just as easily (but wouldn't, because I'm acting in good faith) point to the NYT's 2002–2003 reporting about Iraq and WMDs which was so unbelievably mistaken and grounded in literally nothing that we spend a paragraph attributing it to falsely luring Americans into supporting an illegal invasion based on lies, yet Misplaced Pages (even in the days when that story was reasonably fresh) would balk at the idea of calling them 'marginally reliable', let alone 'generally unreliable'. Meanwhile, this one is literally just a typo in a single article – a bad typo, but one anyone with a brain could understand didn't reflect reality and which was quickly corrected. Reading some of the stories on the front page right now, they report on events similar to what would be covered in a magazine like the generally reliable New York and contain no obvious factual errors. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 21:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2, mainly per u:BobFromBrockley. The Blackrock error was quickly corrected, so I don't hold it against them. Consider this quote from CANZUK Anglo-conservatives sometimes fantasize about reuniting the dominions ... where workers could be exploited freely. A not-insignificant percentage of the content supported by Jacobin is of similar nature. Alaexis_¿question? 21:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 A screenshot from Reddit detailing an error which was corrected is not reason to lower our consideration of the reliablity of the publication. WP:GREL is generally reliable, not always reliable. Admittedly the publication does contain a lot of opinion peices, however that is already covered by WP:RSOPINION and WP:RSEDITORIAL. Notably, The Economist is similarly heavy on opinion pecies and community consensus is that it is WP:GREL. TarnishedPath 22:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 Jacobin is basically the left-wing equivalent to the right-wing British Magazines Spiked and The Spectator. Like these publications, most of its content is opinion orientated, and citing less opinion-focused sources should be preferred. It's clear that the current "generally reliable" rating is suggesting to readers of RSP that Jacobin's opinionated content is usable carte blanche without caveat, which I do not think is accurate. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Some Jacobin pieces have openly pushed 9/11 conspiracy theories , as well as conspiracy theories about the Euromaidan which have not been retracted. The Green RSP rating has mistakenly led people to believe these pieces were reliable , Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_407#https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You should probably read farther than the headline. Simonm223 (talk) 23:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The pieces (which are both by staff writer Branko Marcetic) are strongly slanted, but you're perhaps right that saying they are "pushing conspiracy theories" is going a bit far. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

"The CIA bungled intel pre-9/11" is somewhat the opposite of a conspiracy theory since it literally attributes to incompetence what conspiracists attribute to malice. Simonm223 (talk) 14:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• (Summoned by ping in this thread) Bad RFC / No listing just as in 2021. Or Option 2, it is a liberal analysis magazine, to be considered frequently as WP:RSOPINION. See you at the next 1-day social media hysteria. MarioGom (talk) 22:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  This doesn't really matter for the purposes of the RFC, but Jacobin is not remotely liberal. It's far left, and quite anti-liberal. --Trovatore (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  For whatever far left and anti-liberal mean in the US, I guess so. It does not change my point at all. MarioGom (talk) 22:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  I find it really funny when Americans see somebody holding mainstream social democratic politics and start calling them extreme. Simonm223 (talk) 22:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1. Correcting a mistake is a sign of reliability. The normal caveats about bias/opinion and attribution apply, but not seeing enough to move it down to 2. -- Patar knight - /_{contributions} 23:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 The current summary at WP:RS/P acknowledges that Jacobin is biased and that editors should take care when using it, which is exactly how it should be. Bias and adherence to factual accuracy are two different things; neutrality is not objectivity and vice versa. We do not need to demote it purely for being biased. Agree with others that an RfC being started based on a Reddit thread of a screenshot of a tweet of an editor who made a mistake which was ultimately corrected is a bit silly.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 as per the analysis by Selfstudier, XOR, and Tayi. Cambial — foliar❧ 23:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 WP:GREL already has certain considerations and it doesn't mean that 100% of what is published can make it to WP. Editors are expected to use their judgement. The article in question is a WP:NEWSBLOG. I don't see any reason for downgrading them based on a reddit thread. Lf8u2 (talk) 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 This entire RfC appears to be politically motivated and is predicated on a correction of a sentence that mixed up "third largest" with "a third of". Many other mainline newspapers have made similar, if not worse, errors before. The question is whether corrections were made when such errors were pointed out. And the correction was made here, meeting requirements of reliability. This is likely also about an opinion article, which makes this even more pointless. Silverseren 02:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Weapons of mass destruction from the New York Times? Was that ever retracted? TarnishedPath 11:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• 3. If you can't get a better, more disinterested outfit than Jacobin to vouch for a given fact, that's poissibly a problem. Maybe the fact just isn't important enuff to use, seeing as nobody else has seen fit to bother reporting it.

It's not a matter of some particular instance about mistakes regarding mixing up "third largest" with "a third of" or whatever. Heck everybody does stuff like that. The NYTimes has has published more (unintentionally) misleading or plain-wrong charts than I've had hot meals. I mean, here we've got Nature finding that "among the 348 documents that we found to include the are 186 peer-reviewed journal articles, including some in BioScience, The Lancet Planetary Health, and Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, and 19 news articles targeted at a specialist audience." Imagine that. I would guess that that's largely because "puts indigenous peoples in a good light" trumps "is true" in the emotional hind-brain of the leather-elbow-patch set. It's not a lefty thing in particular, right-wingers are just as bad I'm sure.

Which just strengthens my point, there're no blinders like ideological blinders, so its not so much a matter of how many fact-checkers you have as in how you maybe are presenting facts which, while individually true, are cherry picked or incomplete or out of context or one-sided or otherwise misleading. It might not even be intentional, exactly. Mind-sets are like that. Better to stick with Time or other people who are more into just blandly attracting a broad readership rather than with people who have points to make.

They're big and smart enough that reporting their opinions are worthwhile, of course. "According to Jacobin, consumption of oligarchs is (due to their high protein-to-fat ratio) a potential avenue for ameliorating world hunger" is fine. As long as we include the qualifier. Herostratus (talk) 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@Herostratus: not to backseat comment but if "They're big and smart enough that reporting their opinions are worthwhile, of course. "According to Jacobin, consumption of oligarchs is (due to their high protein-to-fat ratio) a potential avenue for ameliorating world hunger" is fine." isn't that a 2? I'm in much the same boat and offered a split 1/2, my understanding is that a 3 shouldn't be used for opinion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Backseat comments are totally fine. I live for them. I'm not sure about the details of our rule, but aren't all publications are completely reliable for their contents? If the News of the World says "the moon is made of green cheese" we can certainly say "According to the News of the World, the moon is made of green cheese" if for some reason that was useful. The ref is just so the reader can check that they did indeed print that. Similarly for any opinion or other statement. Since all entities are reliable for their own contents, I assume we are not talking at all about that. Why would we.

What we are talking about is: if entity X says "FBI stats say that African-American violent crime was up 50% in Los Angeles in 2024", can we say that in our own words because we can be confident that it is true because we know that entity X has a good fact-checking operation? Can we be very very sure that entity X would also point out if violent crime for all races was also up 50%? Can we be very very sure that this increase is not because the FBI started using a new definition of "violent crime", because entity X would surely point that out? Can we be very very sure that violent crime in the city of Los Angeles is steady and the increase is purely from Los Angeles County (or whatever), because entity X would surely point that out? In other words -- can we be very very sure that entity X would not cherry-pick some facts and leave out others because they are here to make points? We want to be careful about being led by the nose by these people. Herostratus (talk) 22:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the thing is our due weight policy says that due weight (noteworthiness) is apportioned based on the amount of attention given in reliable sources. I take that to mean opinion in generally reliable sources is worth reporting; opinion in generally unreliable sources isn’t. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The Daily Mail is not reliable for its own contents, having doctored its archives. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 00:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1 The author's attitude certainly leaves much to be desired... but I don't think a single mistake that was quickly fixed – in a blog piece, which generally wouldn't even be cited except in very limited circumstances and with attribution per WP:NEWSBLOG – is a good enough reason to downgrade their reliability. Smallangryplanet (talk) 07:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2 My opinion is unchanged from the previous RfC. It is absurd that we've opened up another RfC over a minor issue that was quickly corrected, all because a few neoliberal redditors got mad about it. I think citations to Jacobin should require attribution, but trying to tar them as unreliable over this one case is ridiculous. Log off Reddit, there is nothing worthwhile to be found there. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:59, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2. I concur with other editors that this RFC should never have been opened. Please be more considerate of your fellow editors' time. GordonGlottal (talk) 14:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 possibly Option 3. I don't see that the source is any better than it was in 2021. Per Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d's previous comments and references from the 2021 RfC copied below as well as this recent incident. Yes, making a mistake and correcting it is good but when the mistake is so egreious and the author attacks people who note the error how much faith should we put in the source? Last time I also noted that per Adfont's media review (not a RS but still worth a look) this source is more biased than Breitbart!

Normally, we put these extremely ideological sources in the Option 2 category (e.g., Salon (RSP entry), Townhall (RSP entry)). Jacobin obviously doesn't report straight news, so it (i) always needs to be attributed and (ii) check to see if it complies with WP:WEIGHT. However, Jacobin has additional issues. Its stated political mission is to: centralize and inject energy into the contemporary socialist movement . So it is more in line with an advocacy group than a news source. Also, it has pretty fringe views. James Wolcott identifies Jacobin as part of the alt-left . It's pretty fringe-y on topics concerning Venezuela , the USSR/Communism , and anti-semitism , . I would avoid using Jacobin for those topics. But if you need a socialist/Marxist opinion on something, then Jacobin is definitely a good source to use. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC) Based upon Noonlcarus's comment, Jacobin does seem to frequently use deprecated/unreliable sources for facts. Some examples include Alternet (RSP entry) , Daily Kos (RSP entry) , Raw Story (RSP entry) , The Canary (RSP entry) , and the Electronic Intifada (RSP entry) .Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 04:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, when a source is this biased we have to ask if that level of bias is going to have too great an impact on both the weight they give various facts thus leading to questionable conclusion and their ability to verify otherwise factual claims as we saw here. I think that puts the source deep into the use with caution territory Springee (talk) 18:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

And yet you rated the Heritage Foundation at 2/3 below and didn't find any problem with their extreme ideological bent, saying in their defense that deprecating the foundation would reflect more on the biases of editors than on the true quality of the source and would again push Misplaced Pages away from the goal of collecting knowledge. This is a group that is regularly equated in academic best sources with fascism such as in:

1. Neo-fascist trends in education: neo-liberal hybridisation and a new authoritarian order Díez-Gutiérrez, Enrique-Javier, Mauro-Rafael Jarquín-Ramírez, and Eva Palomo-Cermeño, Journal for Critical Education Policy Studies (JCEPS). Sep2024, Vol. 22 Issue 2, p125-169
2. Pandemic abandonment, panoramic displays and fascist propaganda: The month the earth stood still. By: McLaren, Peter, Educational Philosophy & Theory, 00131857, Feb 2022, Vol. 54, Issue 2
3. THE ANTI-DEMOCRACY THINK TANK. By: Stewart, Katherine, New Republic, 00286583, Sep2023, Vol. 254, Issue 9 (note that the think tank that they call "The West Point of American Fascism" in this article is the Claremont Institute but that they refer to Heritage as participating in Claremont events.)
4. The Road Ahead Fighting for Progress, Freedom, and Democracy, Weingarten, Randi, American Educator. Fall2024, Vol. 48 Issue 3, p2-9. 8p.

So I guess my question is one of consistency: do you believe Jacobin is more ideologically compromised than the fascist-adjacent Heritage foundation? If not why do you believe that the Heritage Foundation is more valuable to the "goal of collecting knowledge" than Jacobin? Simonm223 (talk) 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You are missing a major difference. HF isn't a media source, they are a think tank. Jacobin is a media source, not a think tank. I've argued that all think tanks should be used with great care and in particular we should generally not cite them unless an independent RS points to their work. So the question is can we cite HF when a RS mentions the views/claims/etc of HF with respect to the article topic. In that regard I'm suggesting we treat them more like a primary source vs a RS. Jacobin is different and the relevant question is can we treat them like a regular RS as we do with many other news media sources. If Jacobin publishes a claim about an article subject should we cite them? I argue they should be evaluated by the same standards we use for news media sources. By that standard it's strong bias etc means we should use it's claims and reports with caution and should question if they have weight to justify inclusion. In your post above you provided a list of texts but absent links I can't see what they say nor if their arguments are sound or crap but they don't impact the distinction I've made. Springee (talk) 21:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The list of texts are available via Misplaced Pages library which is why I provided bibliographical information rather than links as links to material on WP library don't work. With the exception of New Republic all are academic journals. And now please answer my original question: do you believe Jacobin is more ideologically compromised than the Heritage Foundation? Simonm223 (talk) 21:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

If you want to cite those sources to support an argument you should tell us what they say or at least why you think they support your position. As for your question, I already answered. It doesn't matter if the HF is more or less compromised because the purpose of each is different. When it comes to topics of automobiles Honda is more compromised than the AP but they also might be a better source if we are asking about stratified charge combustion in automobile engines. Springee (talk) 21:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

On this charge I will defend Springee. I don't necessarily agree with them but I'm not seeing the dissonance in their arguments, especially as they seem to be going 2/3 on both (there is not formal vote here but that seems to be the upshot of what they're saying). Their slighlty idiosyncratic argument about the purspose of the source being primary is also one which they've been making consistently for years. With all due respect I think you're being too hard on Springee. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I take the idea that a publication being openly social democratic is too biased to be reliable personally offensive. Anywhere outside the United States Jacobin would be seen as barely left of the political center. But I will concede that Springee is being consistent. And I actually agreed that think tanks should be treated as primary sources. Frankly, were Springee to be more reasonable on the "political bias" overreach, we might otherwise be agreeing. Simonm223 (talk) 21:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

We may not be disagreeing at all given we both are giving them a "2". I'm arguing that their bias is too much to make them a 1. The possible 3, the same score I gave them last time, is a concern regarding things like the issue that started the recent discussion. I was about to post something about really disliking the RSP's simplistic bucketing. It's really not a good system as we really should put more effort into asking if a source is appropriate for the claims being supported and when an encyclopedia should be citing strongly biased sources in general. If we need to use such a strongly biased source is the information DUE? Springee (talk) 21:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

We do agree on disliking the RSP bucketing system. My personal opinion is no news media source should be treated as a blanket "generally reliable" because reliability is contextual. However I do think that Jacobin is, from a global perspective, not in any way ideologically extreme. Social democracy is a normal left-of-center political position. The extreme-right shift of US politics over the last few decades makes them seem like outliers but that's the real bias problem right there. Simonm223 (talk) 22:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Jacobin is not merely social democratic; their About Us page states they offer socialist perspectives and approvingly includes quotes describing them as supporting radical politics and very explicitly on the radical left, and sort of hostile to liberal accommodationism. Crossroads 22:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I would strongly advise against getting too side-tracked by having a conversation about "social democracy" vs "democratic socialism" (same goes for any arguments over distinctions between "left" vs "liberal" in this thread). I can say from experience that these semantics rabbitholes are shockingly deep, and they're not at all necessary or helpful for this RfC. All I'll say is that these terms are commonly used as synonyms by at least some people, and the "Ideology and reception" section of Jacobin (magazine) notes the political diversity of contributors, incorporating "everyone from social democratic liberals to avowed revolutionaries", so I don't think either you or Simonm223 are wrong on this. Different people are gonna use different terms and apply different meanings to each of them.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 03:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Anywhere outside the United States Jacobin would be seen as barely left of the political center. Where outside the United States are you talking about? The world where barely 20% of countries recognize same-sex marriage? Where sixteen countries have banned the burqa? Is it Japan, where the conservative Liberal Democratic Party has been in power since 1955? Or China, where a media outlet that is as critical of the Chinese Communist Party as Jacobin is of the Democratic Party would have long been banned, and their writers arrested? I think we all need a reality check here, especially if we want to represent reality in our articles. feminist🩸 (talk) 03:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

While I can't speak for them, I'm guessing they probably had in mind specifically other western democracies, as it's common for European countries to have a mainstream Socialist Party with an ideology listed as social democracy (to name a few: Spain, Portugal, France, Albania, etc).

I'm comfortable speculating this is their argument because it's one that's often repeated in American progressive-left circles. This argument is usually presented as follows: Bernie Sanders is viewed as the furthest left one can go in America, the things his supporters want are not radical to other developed countries (paid time off, universal healthcare, etc), therefore what is far left in America is only moderately left elsewhere.

Not saying I entirely agree or disagree with that argument, either how Simonm223 phrased it or how I interpreted it. Just saying I think they had in mind comparable democracies, not the entire world.

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 16:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah. I don't feel the need to put a million qualifiers on a comment on a WP discussion board when all I really need to say is that the United States has an abnormal political compass compared to its peers. But also there used to be lots of socialists, for instance, throughout the Middle East. American allies killed most of them. Simonm223 (talk) 18:33, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

This has become a discussion about Overton windows rather than the source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 3 or 2 - Right-wing outlets that mix opinions in their articles, selectively choose facts to promote a political agenda, or sloppily misrepresent the truth have rightly been marked as unreliable ages ago. There is no reason to have a different standard for other political positions. And regardless of that, outlets that do that cannot be relied on (i.e. are unreliable) to present an accurate picture of the facts on a given topic, nor are their writers' opinions noteworthy in our articles. Op-eds from even mainstream papers like NYT, WaPo, etc. are routinely removed as sources; outlets like Jacobin that consist entirely of such articles should likewise not be used (and we have already done this for right-wing opinion outlets like Quillette). The green checkmark at RSP misleads editors into thinking opinions and claims published in Jacobin are more noteworthy than they really are. Crossroads 22:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Jacobin's raison d'etre is to promote socialism, and it has a strong ideological perspective that makes it unreliable for coverage of contentious geopolitical issues, hard news, or factual reporting. However, it may be used with caution for topics within its area of expertise (such as the theory and history of socialism, labor movements, and socialist cultural commentary), provided proper attribution and corroboration from neutral sources are applied. 2601:340:8200:800:30C1:6FF8:F57B:FCF8 (talk) 03:03, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  This is no more a good argument than it would be to state that the raison d'etre of X publication is to promote capitalism and the geo-political interests of the United States, and it has a strong ideological perspective that makes it unreliable for coverage of contentious geopolitical issues, hard news, or factual reporting.

  I could apply that faulty argument to shitloads of mainstream US publications that are currently considered to be generally reliable. TarnishedPath 05:19, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1. Folks have said it well already so I won't belabor the point. I can't really imagine an occasion when I would cite Jacobin, but I consider them roughly a left-wing equivalent of The Economist or Reason (also publications I'd be unlikely to cite –– all three of these are usually rather predictable and tend to offer shallow analysis). I wasn't sure how we list those other two so I checked RSP just now and saw that they're 1s. Yes, OTHERSTUFF is a poor argument, but I was more interested in getting a baseline on where the community draws the line between 1 and 2. With respect, I object to Crossroads' comparison to Quillette, which leans heavily into platforming fringe ideas and displays little editorial oversight. (Interestingly, here's some solid reporting by Jacobin on a hoax published in Quillette, revealing the latter's abysmal editorial practices, courtesy of this past RSN discussion.) Generalrelative (talk) 01:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  Personally I don’t see Reason and Economist as equivalent, and was surprised to see Reason green flagged for the same reason that I don’t think Jacobin should be. That is, whereas Economist is mostly reporting and some opinion, both Reason and Jacobin are mostly opinion and some reporting. The Jacobin piece on the Quillette hoax looks good to me, but everything else they’ve published by that author wouldn’t be usable for facts as they’re pure op eds. I’d put the Spectator and National Review in the category as Jacobin and Reason. (Whereas Spiked and American Conservative are worse, red flag territory rather than amber.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Additional considerations apply. As I indicated in the discussion above which I started, the mere fact that Jacobin thought it appropriate to publish a statement that Blackstone Inc. "owns a third of US housing stock" indicates that they do not do adequate fact-checking before publishing articles. Therefore, one should attempt to corroborate any facts they publish with more reliable sources before relying on Jacobin to support any factual statements in articles. feminist🩸 (talk) 03:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1. Our guideline on reliable sources is explicit that reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. I may not personally love the political perspective of Jacobin, but they don't go out of their way to platform disinformation that flatly contradicts academic consensus about reality. Regarding Jacobin as unreliable on the grounds of its bias would require evidence that said bias leads it to regularly publish misinformation and untruths. I haven't seen this established.Moreover, the error brought up that somehow has sparked this RFC was both A) corrected in a timely manner, which is what we expect from a reliable source; and B) a case where context matters, as the original source was a book review of several books written by Mark Fisher. If cited, it should be cited to warrant information about Fisher or his books or the genre he wrote in, etc. The Blackstone number was Information provided in passing, and we already know that such info occasionally may not be reliable, and so we use our best judgment as editors, citing and reading a wide variety of sources and going to the best sources. For a topic like Mark Fisher, looks like Jacobin is a good resource. For Blackstone and housing, try an article from the journal Urban Studies. Not every source is perfect at every subject, but when a source has a known editorial staff, issues corrections to publications, and is grounded in reality, it's reliable, even if I wouldn't personally enjoy talking politics with the editor.Finally, when a piece published in Jacobin is an opinion piece, we can just treat it as such, per our guideline about opinion pieces in reliable sources. The Economist and The Wall Street Journal publish a lot of opinion pieces too, yet GREL they've remained. As the perennial list says of The Economist, editors should use their judgement to discern factual content—which can be generally relied upon—from analytical content, which should be used in accordance with the guideline on opinion in reliable sources. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 06:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 3 or Option 2, long overdue for the reasons already set out in this thread. And frankly, the idea that a magazine whose name is derived from the people who instituted the Reign of Terror was ever acceptable w/o issue is offputting by itself. Just10A (talk) 23:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  For the record, the founder has said that in naming the magazine, he was thinking of The Black Jacobins, a book about the Haitian Revolution, not the French. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 01:24, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  Not that that is relevant anyway when assessing reliability. TarnishedPath 01:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  The Black Jacobins is named so because the author analogizes the actions of the Haitians to that of the French Jacobins. It's just adding an extra step (not to mention that the word has a known meaning on it's face, so it's mostly irrelevant.). Regardless, it's clearly derived, and it's frankly silly to even argue semantics. Just10A (talk) 02:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  Just to be clear your argument about the name being relevant to reliability is literally arguing semantics. Your objection doesn't make any sense. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  I was referring to the semantics of what counts as "derived from." And no, while the name clearly doesn't inherently reflect relevance. If a source called "The KGB Times" came up on the noticeboard for reliability, it's perfectly reasonable for a person to point out "Hey, I don't think it's reliable for reasons x,y, and z, andddd the name also doesn't exactly inspire confidence." That's all I'm saying. Don't twist my statement into something it's not. Just10A (talk) 05:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  That is arguing semantics. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  If that's your benchmark, then practically everything is arguing semantics, including this whole thread. "Jacobin publishes words -> what are the meaning of those words? (semantics) -> can we qualify those meanings as 'reliable?'" Clearly distinguishing factors, and I'm not interested in arguing semantics about the word "semantics" with you like a 12 year old. My vote's been explained, get over it. Just10A (talk) 17:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1/Keep the current RSPS summary I think a few people arguing for additional considerations are misremembering the current RSPS legend. Additional considerations doesn’t refer to things like weight, or bias, or that you need to attribute opinion pieces because those are all standard considerations that apply to all sources. The current RSPS summary already says (in part) Editors should take care to adhere to the neutral point of view policy when using Jacobin as a source in articles, for example by quoting and attributing statements that present its authors' opinions, and ensuring that due weight is given to their perspective amongst others'. I can't find anything that indicates that's not still a perfectly good summary. CambrianCrab (talk) 01:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 1* Jacobin is a biased source, something that should obviously be considered by anyone thinking of sourcing them for anything contentious, but their reporting has never been an issue in terms of establishing basic factual information about a situation. One writer for a book review making a dumb statement that was corrected by the source doesn't change that. BSMRD (talk) 04:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1: Nothing of substance has been presented to suggest that this source is not GREL. Most of the reasons being presented for MREL appear to be about bias, but that is not of direct relevance to reliability unless it can be shown that any bias directly impinges somehow on its reliability. That it provides a perspective from a rarefied position on the political spectrum is a moot point in terms of reliability. Arguably it is good to have sources from all different positions on the political spectrum for the purposes of balance, but that is, again, irrelevant to its reliability. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1/2: generally reliable, they have a correction policy. Bias for opinion pieces and essays should be taken into account, attribute accordingly. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Bad RfC As on 25 July 2021. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 I previously commented in the 2021 RfC based on our guideline for use of biased sources. In particular I found this 2019 assessment by the Columbia Journalism Review persuasive. Most recently this January 4, 2025 article from the Columbia Journalism Review cites a Jacobin article from November 2024 positively. A major trade publication in the field of journalism still seems to find Jacobin worth citing as "demonstrat convincingly" how Harris lost the pro-labor vote in the 2024 election. Why should we not follow CJRs lead? The arguments seem to be (1) Jacobin recently issued a major retraction and (2) Jacobin has a left-wing bias. I could buy into (1) if they constantly issued retractions, but no one has shown that that is the case. (2) is contrary to WP:BIASED. Altogether, I don't see why we should treat Jacobin differently from reliable but right-of-center-biased publications like The New Criterion or The Atlantic Monthly. — Wug·a·po·des 07:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2 or Option 3: Not only is Jacobin an extremely biased, ideologically charged source, but their reporting has been called into question multiple times. At the very least, additional considerations do apply. Doctorstrange617 (talk) 13:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 2. This is not a WP:NEWSORG. Its stated purpose is "to foster class consciousness and build the institutions that can tame and eventually overcome capital". Compare to the missions of the NYT: "We seek the truth and help people understand the world."; or the BBC: "to act in the public interest, serving all audiences through the provision of impartial, high-quality and distinctive output and services which inform, educate and entertain". The NYT and the BBC are both biased (every source is biased), but they do at least aim to deliver reporting. Jacobin, on the other hand, is an advocacy organisation. That doesn't make it automatically unreliable, nor does that make it solely a source of opinions, but that does makes it qualitatively different from the newspapers that others have compared it to - and that is an important additional consideration worth noting. For the record, I disagree that one incident of inaccuracy is enough to downgrade a source, particularly one that was corrected. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 13:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
• Just because I note that my earlier !vote wasn't posted in to this section, for the avoidance of doubt, whilst I think this is a Bad RFC because there's no reason for initiating it, I support Option 2 or Option 3 because it is strictly an opinion site and not one that should be relied on for statements of fact about anything but itself. FOARP (talk) 14:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 – Jacobin may be biased, but that has no bearing on reliability. They have many well-respected articles that have been cited by other reliable sources, have transparent editorial controls, and a demonstrated process for retraction and correction. I see a couple complaints above that Jacobin isn't a news organization; however, this isn't relevant to reliability. Just like The Economist, Jacobin publishes more retrospective, interpretive articles which for certain subjects can often be better than using contemporaneous news articles. Overall this is a very bad RfC given the creator's undisclosed connection to the previous overturned RfC (see comment by Tayi Arajakate) and a complete lack of any examples of actual uses on Misplaced Pages where the reliability is questioned. This is as far as I can tell a knee-jerk reaction to a single example of an error on an unrelated topic in an offhand remark inside a book review, and which wasn't even used on Misplaced Pages. An absurd reason to open an RfC. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 15:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 per Silver seren and Wugapodes (and thank you for providing actual reported information on their editorial process rather than speculation, heavy irony in this whole discussion). This whole saga is based on one correction? Really? Gnomingstuff (talk) 19:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Option 1 bias has nothing to do with reliability. Meanwhile, corrections are a strong signal of reliability. --Pinchme123 (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Bias has plenty to do with reliability, or can. It's a worthwhile thing to take into consideration. Herostratus (talk) 21:56, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 3/4: An encyclopedia should focus on high-quality, fact-driven sources. Not on ones that report the news with heavy political agendas, at least not without qualifying it. Using a highly politically charged source (of whatever political persuasion) inevitably leads to

1. Bias and lack of objectivity: Sources with extreme political leanings present information very selectively and often distort facts to support an ideological agenda. This can lead to biased or one-sided entries that undermine neutrality. It can also lead to including content that is not encyclopedic. See Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not.
2. Erosion of credibility: Misplaced Pages is expected to provide balanced, factual, and well-researched content. Reliance on politically extreme sources can damage its reputation as a reliable and neutral reference.
3. Misinformation and inaccuracy: Sources like Jacobin often contain errors, conspiracy theories, or exaggerated claims that, when included in encyclopedia entries, could mislead readers and spread misinformation.
4. Cherry-picking evidence: Extreme political sources may omit contrary evidence or fail to represent the full range of perspectives. This results in incomplete or skewed coverage. Critical context is lacking.
5. Harm to reputation of the field: Normalizing unreliable content can set a dangerous precedent here. Per Misplaced Pages policy, a fact worthy of entry in an encyclopedia would be covered by multiple reliable sources. It would be difficult to "counter" each instance of citing Jacobin with another source of equal repute but on the opposite political extreme covering the same story.

Further, Jacobin is mostly an opinion source. While it is not the worst source in the world, it hardly ranks among reliable sources. According to Ad Fontes Media, which monitors news value and reliability, "Ad Fontes Media rates Jacobin in the Hyper-Partisan Left category of bias and as Mixed Reliability/Opinion OR Other Issues in terms of reliability."

The goal of Misplaced Pages, which prioritizes reliable secondary sources, is to present information with a sense of detachment. There is no shortage of such sources, and those are the ones to use. --Precision123 (talk) 21:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Well said. Iljhgtn (talk) 21:31, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, @Iljhgtn:. I'd also like to add that @Herostratus: put it nicely above: "If you can't get a better, more disinterested outfit than Jacobin to vouch for a given fact, that's poissibly a problem. Maybe the fact just isn't important enuff to use, seeing as nobody else has seen fit to bother reporting it." --Precision123 (talk) 21:38, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

That is also a good point. I imagine that is why as a standalone source it likely should not be relied upon for reliable reporting on the facts, but that maybe it could work to bolster a claim made already by another reliable source. Option 2 of "Additional considerations" is where I am leaning. Iljhgtn (talk) 21:40, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

The OP @Feminist also spoke to this. Iljhgtn (talk) 21:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

1. All sources are biased, it's a natural part of human nature. This is covered by WP:RSBIAS, if that bias effects accuracy and fact checking then that needs to be shown by examples. Biased sources are not unreliable simply because of their bias.
2. People's opinions of Misplaced Pages are not a criteria for determining a reliable source.
3. Instances of errors or misinformation should be shown, saying they might exist isn't evidence that they do exist.
4. This is again covered by WP:RSBIAS.
5. This point relates to NPOV not reliability. Editors should take WP:DUE, WP:BALASP, and WP:FALSEBALANCE into account, but ultimately whether a source should be used is not the same as if a source is reliable.

-- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:06, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Detachment is specifically not required of sources per RSBIAS "... reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:24, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

@Precision123: did you employ ChatGPT or other LLM to compose this response? The structure is suspiciously similar to ChatGPT's writing style and your response is primarily platitudes with no specific examples or references to the specific policies undergirding RSP. Your sentence Sources like Jacobin often contain errors, conspiracy theories, or exaggerated claims that, when included in encyclopedia entries, could mislead readers and spread misinformation is especially LLM-like and makes the spurious claim that sources like Jacobin may use conspiracy theories which hasn't been brought up anywhere here. Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 02:38, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 2. They are an analysis/opinion magazine rather than a strait news source, so their pervasive bias has to be carefully considered when assessing its use as a source. Eluchil404 (talk) 00:48, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion: Jacobin

• Seeing as there's substantial disagreement in the pre-RfC section above, I've gone ahead and launched this RfC. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Pings to @Feminist, The wub, Thebiguglyalien, Super Goku V, Simonm223, FortunateSons, Oort1, Burrobert, ActivelyDisinterested, Hydrangeans, Vanilla Wizard, Iljhgtn, Selfstudier, Horse Eye's Back, NoonIcarus, Harizotoh9, and Springee: who commented above. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Additional pings to @WMrapids, David Gerard, Bobfrombrockley, Shibbolethink, Crossroads, Herostratus, Dumuzid, Aquillion, Gamaliel, Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d, BSMRD, Wugapodes, Ip says, King of Hearts, Chetsford, Tayi Arajakate, MPants at work, Jlevi, The Four Deuces, Grnrchst, Szmenderowiecki, Dlthewave, Jr8825, Thenightaway, Nvtuil, Peter Gulutzan, FormalDude, Volunteer Marek, FOARP, Sea Ane, 3Kingdoms, Bilorv, Blindlynx, Jurisdicta, TheTechnician27, MarioGom, Novemberjazz, and Volteer1: who commented in the 2021 RfC. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think you should also disclose that the previous RfC was initially closed by you (back then under the usernames User:Mikehawk10 and User:Mhawk10) and the discussions that followed at Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources/Archive 6 § Jacobin (magazine) and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive340 § Close review of the latest RfC about Jacobin's reliability led to an overturn on grounds of it being heavily flawed and ostensibly a supervote, followed by a re-close afterwards. Especially considering your statement in the above section questioning that (re)closure now, which also partially forms the basis for this RfC. Those discussions might also answer your question on why it was (re)closed in the manner it was. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 20:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've tried to ping everyone from the prior RfC and from the discussion above. This was done manually: I excluded 1 vanished account and I tried to ping people by their current usernames if they have changed names since then. If I missed someone, please feel free to notify them. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Per my prior comments about space constraints I've split this to its own section. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:51, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've just moved the RFC out of the discussion again. The RFC shouldn't be made a subsection of the prior discussion, due to ongoing issues with overloading on the noticeboard. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment Editors should bear in mind that reliability does not mean infallibility. It merely means we can use sources where applicable. In this case, the impeached article is a book review, which combines a description of a book and the reviewer's opinions. The only acceptable use of a book review - whoever wrote it and wherever it is published - is in an article about the book reviewed.

Ironically, there can be no article about the book because it lacks notability. It was only reviewed in Jacobin. We are basically working to prevent things that will never happen. Under current policy therefore this source could never be used.

Our time would be better spent ensuring that RS policy is adhered to.

TFD (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Bad RFC because we should not be rating things just for the sake of rating things, but since we're doing this: Jacobin is clearly an opinion outlet, not a news outlet. We shouldn't be relying on them for statements of fact for that reason alone. FOARP (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Notwithstanding my !vote above I do agree this is a bad RFC because there's not ever been an example presented of Jacobin being used to source anything even remotely questionable during the RFCBefore discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Well, there was one example that generated the 2023 discussion which was Jacobin being used to source a description of the 2014 Maidan Revolution as "the far-right U.S.-backed Euromaidan protests", so that's one occasion of it being used to source something questionable. It was also used by the same editor on the 9/11 attack page to source the claim that the CIA facilitated the attacks and intentionally withheld information that could have stopped the attacks.

  That editor is now blocked (because of their conduct on this noticeboard I think?) but they used the green flag at RSP to justify their edits. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Absolutely a bad RfC, I rolled my eyes when I was pinged about this. Nothing fundamental has changed about Jacobin's editorial line or policy since the last RfC was opened four years ago. I can't believe we're hashing this out again because of a single reddit post. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• The Jacobin author who wrote the nonsense claim that Blackstone owns 1/3 of US housing stock literally mocked the people who tried to correct him and the correction - which itself was inaccurate and weaselly - was issued only after social media pressure. This is an outlet that very obviously does not care one bit about fact checking if it gets in the way of producing click bait pieces. It’s exactly the kind of source we should NOT be using, especially as the whole media landscape is shifting that way. Volunteer Marek 19:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  They issued a correction. This is what we expect of reliable outlets. Your personal characterization of the correction as "weaselly" is your personal opinion on tone and has nothing to do with any Misplaced Pages policy. Simonm223 (talk) 19:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Did this correction at least state what the correct % was? Like, the correction itself tries to make it seem like a minor overstatement rather than, you know, a completely wild exaggeration that tried to take advantage of general innumeracy. “I’m a billionaire!”. “No you’re not”. “Ok that was an overstatement”. Come on. It’s quite disappointing to see how many people are fine with misinformation, weak sourcing and “alternative facts” as long as it agrees with their ideological preconceptions. Whats even more disappointing is when these are people who are claiming to be building a factual encyclopedia. Facts are facts and garbage is garbage, regardless of whether it come from the left or right. Volunteer Marek 03:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes facts are facts and garbage is garbage but as long as we allow garbage like New York "Iraq has WMDs" Times to be treated as a reliable source I don't see why we should treat Jacobin differently. Jacobin is compliant with Misplaced Pages's requirements. If you want to talk about tightening those requirements I'd be open to the discussion at WP:VPP. Simonm223 (talk) 14:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Was the weapons of mass destruction bit ever retracted by New York Times? As far as I'm aware it wasn't. Perhaps we should be wasting community time and having a discussion about them? TarnishedPath 14:15, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah my point is just that a lot of editors are establishing a double standard where Jacobin is being held to a higher standard than what Misplaced Pages generally expects from news organizations. I would like it to be measured against the same standard as anyone else. Simonm223 (talk) 14:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not the biggest fan of them because there's so much oped stuff but we've never thought that reason to downgrade The Economist. TarnishedPath 14:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Exactly. And that is kind of what I was getting at when I suggested the right venue for what Volunteer Marek was concerned about was WP:VPP. If we allow these kinds of sources then we allow these kinds of sources. I would be happy to restrict these kinds of sources more than we do but it has to be handled at a policy level rather than via exceptions to present policy. Simonm223 (talk) 14:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• This does not appear to be an outlet generally characterized as producing click bait. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It is not the case that a book review can only be used in an article about that specific book. For example, they are frequently cited in biographies of authors, in order to demonstrate that those authors meet the relevant wiki-notability standard. And an article about the pedagogy of some subject could cite reviews of textbooks about that subject. XOR'easter (talk) 20:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The Heritage Foundation

Moved to WP:Requests for comment/The Heritage Foundation – Due to how large the discussion has become, and size constraints on the noticeboard, this discussion has been moved to it's own page. LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

RfC: TheGamer

OP has withdrawn the discussion. 💽 🌙Eclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ 21:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

TheGamer seems to be either user-generated content, or slop listicles. Additionally, it seems to source it's content largely from dubious YouTube content, Reddit posts, or Twitter/X threads. However it is listed as a source in articles such as Flowey purely in relation to one listicle that ranks Flowey in relation to other characters. What is the reliability of this site?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate?

Link to previous discussion

Kaynsu1 02:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Bad RfC. While begun in good faith, this RfC is malformed. The opening statement is not neutrally worded and brief as our information page about RfCs advises. I would also ask why the existing guidance about TheGamer available at the list maintained by WikiProject Video games isn't considered sufficient. If this is at root a page-specific concern about Flowey, as the opening statement causes it to appear to be, the matter can surely be handled better at Talk:Flowey. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 02:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Nevermind then. I'll delete the info on the Flowey page that provides no encyclopedic value. The reason I proposed this originally was because TheGamer's content has gotten worse and more sloppy since 2020.Kaynsu1 04:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ontario Bar Association and Artificallawyer

Is this sigcov , reliable for Draft:BRYTER? HelixUnwinding (talk) 09:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The first link goes to a summary of a detailed software review by Friedrich Blase, the “Innovator-in-Residence” of the Ontario Bar Association. It looks like Dr. Blase, whose LinkedIn profile references writings on legal technology, might qualify as a subject matter expert, so I would be inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt. The second link goes to a blog, which would not be a reliable source. John M Baker (talk) 18:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok, thank you very much. HelixUnwinding (talk) 22:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Pirate Wires?

Pirate Wires describes itself as an "American media company reporting at the intersection of technology, politics, and culture." It doesn't shout "reliable source" to me (feels more like a group blog), but could somebody else take a look at this and help me determine if (a) its articles, or (b) its claims about itself should be cited in articles or BLPs, as was done here? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 20:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Wouldn’t this be an aboutself citation anyway? I would be more concerned about primary/OR here in that case.

Regarding the source: they are likely to be pretty biased, but according to the page linked, they seems sufficiently reliable for this, unless someone can dig up large-scale issues I missed. Employees, proper funding etc. all seem to be fine. FortunateSons (talk) 21:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

So I'd be fine enough trimming it to something to the effect of as of January 2025, his profile at the online publisher Pirate Wires lists him as a senior editor? I just wanted to make sure PW was something worth mentioning at all, or if it was more akin to 'he's the senior editor this super-serious blog' and name-dropping a site that bore no mention. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 21:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I’m not sure, but think being descriptive is fine for “articles about Misplaced Pages” and stuff, “critical“ is probably better coming from a specific source, even if it’s obvious. With everything else, it’s probably a question of DUE, not RS. FortunateSons (talk) 22:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd eschew calling out any of his particular articles over others, since there's... no reason to, right? Without reliable third-party sourcing, they're no more notable or inclusion-worthy than his others. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 22:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I think this is a case for BRD, but it seems like a reasonable option FortunateSons (talk) 22:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Pirate Wires has a strong right wing "libertarian tech bro" bent to its coverage, unsurprising given its links to Peter Thiel. The way it frames events is often strongly slanted, sometimes to the point of being misleading. Take for instance the recent story claiming that the WMF had been taken over by "Soros-backed operatives" . I would argue that this framing is conspiratorial and hyperbolic. I think it might sometimes be usable with caution for uncontroversial facts, but more objective sources should be preferred. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Here's a Business Insider story on Pirate Wires that gives a good sense of its ethos . Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:01, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Invoking George Soros conspiracy theories to attack an organization is not a good start for Pirate Wires, a new publication that does not have much of a reputation at this point. Definitely not generally reliable, and I would avoid using this publication for claims about living people. — Newslinger talk 02:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it a "group blog", it just has a niche audience in the tech industry. It is certainly more factually based than Fox News. The article you linked is using it problematically though. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 14:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Words of the founder Selfstudier (talk) 14:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Solana is the founder and operator of Pirate Wires, so maybe it's wise to consider his pieces in particular self-published. No idea the level of editorial rigour other contributors are under though. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Pirate Wires should be considered Generally reliable. The information that they publish, though perhaps from a libertarian or right wing political slant, is generally truthful/accurate and therefore should be considered WP:GENREL unless someone is able to provide substantial evidence and examples that disprove this. Iljhgtn (talk) 16:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  It's Mike Solana's blog. Simonm223 (talk) 17:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have an evidentiary basis for your claim? I ask because I was recently described in a Pirate Wires article as a member of a powerful pro-Hamas group, and while this was entertaining in its foolishness, the important point for RSN is that it was a factual error. The article contained many inaccuracies about various things, and it was clear that no attempt had been made to avoid errors and erroneous conclusions. So, using it for BLPs might be unwise, and the notion that it is "generally truthful/accurate" seem highly questionable. Of course, I only have one data point, so it could be an outlier, but I doubt it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah. I was not happy about Pirate Wires being used for that whole fiasco. But as for the evidence look above at the link Selfstudier provided in which Mike Solana says, "I am the overwhelming majority owner of pirate wires, with no board. nobody tells me what to write or cover, nor will they ever." Simonm223 (talk) 17:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

When the editor in chief is also the owner and there is no editorial board for him to answer to and also he writes a lot of the content I don't know how we could describe it as anything other than a personal blog. Even if he sometimes brings in guest writers it's still quite obviously his personal thing. Simonm223 (talk) 17:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

There are many other editors from what I can tell, such as Ashley Rindsberg. It is not even close to a blog. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Ashley Rindsberg, the author of the article with inaccuracies and erroneous conclusions. For Misplaced Pages's purposes, its main utility may be as a tool to identify potential disinformation vectors that could degrade the integrity of Misplaced Pages content. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

What "inaccuracies and erroneous conclusions" are you referring to? Can you cite specific examples please and quote from the source directly? Also, are there other reliable sources which then criticize PW for "inaccuracies and erroneous conclusions" or is that WP:OR and/or your own conclusion being reached? Iljhgtn (talk) 17:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Considering that comment and the fact that founder Mike Solana is the chief marketing officer of Founders Fund, Pirate Wires has a major conflict of interest with all of the individuals and organizations associated with Founders Fund, and is a non-independent source with respect to all related topics. — Newslinger talk 03:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Pirate Wires is trashy far-right culture wars content. It is at best a group blog - David Gerard (talk) 10:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Marginally reliable, there seems to be a pretty wide spread quality wise because they seem to allow their writer a loose leash. This means that some articles are very good and some are very bad. Personally I've found them solidly reliable for the more wonkish techy stuff but have a lot of issues when they start to cover politics or culture/society in general. Crypto seems to be the only blindspot within their otherwise area of expertise, their crypto coverage is just awful and should be avoided like the plague. When used I would attribute and I would strongly advise against any use for BLP not covered by ABOUTSELF. I agree that pieces by Solana should be treated as self published and that coverage by Pirate Wire is not to be considered independent of the Founders Fund. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Need context before coming to RSN

At this point, the source is used in only 7 articles in mainspace. . in general, RSN really shouldn't be used to approve sources ahead of time, editors exercise their own discretion, debate merits of source in the talk page of article, and come here if the same source is debated over and over again, or if reliability is still at issue. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Per Slatersteven its founder describes it as a WP:SPS - it should be treated accordingly. Simonm223 (talk) 17:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Not me. Slatersteven (talk) 17:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Oh dear did I misread? OOPS should be per Selfstudier apologies. I will strike above. Simonm223 (talk) 17:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  It is not WP:SPS and its founder merely said things along the lines of "I am not bought and paid for nor a mouthpiece for any billionaire" etc. Now I do not know the veracity of that statement for sure, but I do not see that Mike Solana declared Pirate Wires to be SPS or a blog. It has numerous other independent journalists and appears to run as a full-fledged journalistic organization like any other, with their own right leaning or right-libertarian bias of course. But bias is not a reason for a source to otherwise be deprecated or considered SPS or anything else, it is just the nature of nearly every source that some bias to one direction or another is to be expected. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

But they don't have any indication of editorial controls, or a fact-checking process, or any of the things that an WP:RS would have; neither is there any reason to think they have a particular reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. A statement like "I am the overwhelming majority owner of pirate wires, with no board. nobody tells me what to write or cover, nor will they ever" makes it pretty clear that it's not structured the way we'd expect a RS to be structured. I'm with the editors above who describe it as a blog - there's just nothing here that even has the shape of an RS. The fact that the person who runs it sometimes also includes guest posts by other people doesn't change the fact that there's no editorial board, no source of fact-checking, and most of all no reputation. Like... what makes you think that it's a WP:RS, according to the criteria we use? Where do you feel its reliability comes from? --Aquillion (talk) 20:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah by that criteria this is a SPS, one guys blog is still one guys blog even if they let their friends post. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Usage in Ideological bias on Misplaced Pages

Is the Pirate Wires piece "How Misplaced Pages Launders Regime Propaganda" by Ashley Rindsberg a reliable source of claims for the Ideological bias on Misplaced Pages article? Rindsberg has published other content about Misplaced Pages on Pirate Wires, including "How Soros-Backed Operatives Took Over Key Roles at Misplaced Pages". — Newslinger talk 04:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

It's at best, usable for the attributed opinion of Rindsberg only, but even then, it's obviously polemical and partisan. There's lots of right-wing criticism of Misplaced Pages that I personally find disingenuous, but inevitably an article on "Ideological bias on Misplaced Pages" is going to have to include some partisan sourcing, but not framing it as fact is essential. I am unsure whether Pirate Wires is prominent enough a publication that it would be due to mention in any capacity. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't even think its usable for that... Can't find anything that suggests that Rindsberg is a subject matter expert. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Sources in that article should have some leeway, as Misplaced Pages is obviously going to be criticised by such sources. But I totally agree with Hemiauchenia that framing is key. This is the opinion of a hyper partisan source, framing it as fact is wrong. Whether it should be included or not is a discussion for the articles talk page. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

It is more or less a group

blog that mostly publishes opinion, including eg antisemitic Soros conspiracy theories. Any Misplaced Pages editor reading their coverage of this project will immediately spot multiple falsehoods and errors, and also personal attacks on names editors based on these inaccuracies. At best on a par with Quillette. In short, not reliable for this topic, and if this topic is a guide to how robust its general reporting is it’s probably not reliable for anything. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Both unreliable and WP:UNDUE. Rindsberg's views on any topic are quite irrelevant to anything. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 06:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Agree fully. Unreliable and undue. Simonm223 (talk) 14:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

almost certainly no. the article attacking[REDACTED] has falsehoods and even ignoring that and arguing its an opinion piece we could use with attribution , it goes at it from a very marginal POV … there are more useful opinion pieces from more reliable outlets out there.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 07:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

How is it used by others or is it even used by others? If sources have cited their work then I think we can as well. However, I would be very cautious about using it as an independent reference. Very cautious to the point where I would generally say no. Perhaps in a case where it's spot on topic (ideological bias of Misplaced Pages) but then only with attribution. Speaking generally, these sort of sources are always difficult as they may provide very good information but other than editors reading the text and using their own common sense, OR, etc, we don't have a good way to judge the quality of the output. BTW, this is also why I think "use with caution" may not be specific enough. Some sources are more like "use with caution but probably OK" while others are more like "use with extreme caution but there is probably a case where it provides more than about self content". Springee (talk) 14:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Pirate Wires itself is notable as it's had coverage in other notable outlets but its viewpoint about Misplaced Pages per se might not have been documented in RS yet. But I'm confused -- Why are some of these other media outlets' self-published viewpoints included without them necessarily being considered RS themselves? Manuductive (talk) 13:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The term self-published refers to sources without adequate editorial oversight, which includes most group blogs. Well-established news outlets are not self-published sources. — Newslinger talk 14:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Imo Having Misplaced Pages articles that discuss whether Misplaced Pages is reliable, biased, antisemitic, etc is silly. We're all too inherently conflicted as Misplaced Pages editors to give a sober assessment of these topics and what is/isn't due to include. These topics are best left to scholars. That said, Pirate Wires is a lot less established than these other publications you mention. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Outright rejecting Pirate Wires because it's "right-wing criticism of Misplaced Pages" and has "a very marginal POV" is the issue with WP:RSN that the piece is trying to critique. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 13:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

But it does affect WP:DUE weight (which requires balance between sources, and which is the real concern for something that, as a WP:SPS or a website with no reputation, would obviously be opinion at best.) The article already contains a large number of right-wing sources with a similar perspective; does this piece add anything to them? My feeling is that articles like this are subject to problems where editors try to do this nose-counting thing where they add dozens of opinionated or biased sources saying the same thing because they feel it's a really important perspective - but that's not how opinion is really meant to be used. If we have twelve sources that are fundimentially similar saying the same thing, they ought to be condensed down to a single sentence or so saying "a bunch of sources said X" (unless some of them are individually noteworthy on their own merits somehow, eg. if they're an opinion from a significant expert, but that obviously isn't the case here.) --Aquillion (talk) 14:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@Chess makes a perfectly valid point. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It's being rejected because it's a random tech guy's blog - not because it's right wing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

One thing @Hemiauchenia said I half-agree with. The question of Misplaced Pages bias is one best answered by academics - which we should document appropriately and neutrally - the opinion of Ashley Rindberg on a blog with no editorial board is not a notable opinion, again, not because of its left-right bent but because she's just some person with a megaphone. Simonm223 (talk) 14:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It is your opinion that it is a blog. That itself would need evidence and probably an RfC. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Also, Ashley Rindsberg is a man. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Evidence has already been provided. In this thread. The founder brags about having no editorial board on twitter dot com. Simonm223 (talk) 14:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Getting neither the gender "she's" nor the spelling "Ashley Rindberg" correct shows me you may not have looked into this very much. Iljhgtn (talk) 14:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh do stop. That's an awful lot to take from a bloody typo. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Here's a freebee for all the people looking to say Misplaced Pages has a left-wing bias. This is what a reliable source accusing Misplaced Pages of a left-wing bias looks like: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10584609.2020.1793846 Simonm223 (talk) 14:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Two can play that game. https://manhattan.institute/article/is-wikipedia-politically-biased Iljhgtn (talk) 14:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The Manhattan Institute is a think-tank with no particular reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; it is obviously not a WP:RS. --Aquillion (talk) 14:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

This too, in addition to my comment below. Frankly I'm finding this interaction very strange. Simonm223 (talk) 14:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I should add that the Manhattan Institute was discussed previously here; the discussion was never closed or added to WP:RSP but by a quick nose-count the total unreliable + deprecate opinions outnumbered the "unclear" opinions almost two-to-one (and there were almost no people saying it was GREL.) --Aquillion (talk) 14:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

What game? I literally provided a source accusing Misplaced Pages both of left-wing bias and of bias against women at the same time. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• We don't actually require an RFC for every individual dispute; and sources certainly do not automatically default to reliable. Just doing a quick nose-count in this discussion suggests that it's extremely unlikely that an RFC on Pirate Wires' reliability would support your contention that it is reliable - numerous issues have been raised, especially regarding its lack of editorial controls and its lack of the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that RS requires. We can pull it through an entire RFC if you really think it's necessary but I think your time would be better-spent looking for more clearly reliable secondary sources covering this, if you want it in the article. This would also turn things back to the more fundamental WP:DUE problem I mentioned above - this looks identical to dozens of similar pieces posted by people with similar opinions; given that it's published in what's at least a low-quality source compared to the ones already in the article, what makes this one significant enough to highlight? --Aquillion (talk) 14:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

For disclosure, I originally wrote the Mike Solana article. I think the answer is no to this question specifically, and similar questions generally.
Pirate Wires is an advocacy media outlet. Its writing is in a punchy tone -- a tech-ish form of gonzo journalism -- that blends opinion with explanatory reporting. They don't do spot news. So there's just no utility in using it for encyclopedia-writing.
That's not to say it's either good or bad, merely that it doesn't serve the limited purposes for which we use sources here. (It ran a widely cited interview with Jack Dorsey and I don't think anyone believes they made-up the interview. But if we need to cite that interview in an article it can be referenced to any of the numerous RS that, themselves, cited it through précis', versus Pirate Wires directly.) In any case, anything it publishes that is encyclopedic will be covered in a second, more conventional RS and we should reference the second source. Anything not referenced in a pass-through outlet is probably undue. Chetsford (talk) 18:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Respectful comment: This discussion would be more helpful if we focused on how reliable sources treat a specific startup news organization and less on original research and personal opinion. --Precision123 (talk) 21:55, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

CEIC data

I often see this site being used as a source for country-list data. They appear to be professional, but I'm not sure if they're considered a proper secondary source. They do not appear to be the same CEIC as the one owned by Caixin, as they say they are owned by "ISI Markets". Wizmut (talk) 23:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It looks like just a big database. I would trust the first party sources for raw data more. EEpic (talk) 10:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

If in question use secondary sources. Ramos1990 (talk) 02:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Fantasy Literature

I see this source around a lot and I would like to have it settled for whether it is OK to use for reviews. It looks good to me and not promotional or any of the typical sorts of issues that plague these kinds of websites, but I am not sure, and I would like to know before I use it on pages, and sometimes books are cited to this at NPP and I am unsure how I should judge it. I would judge it as decently established but it looks to me to be straddling the line between online review publication and blog. It's used on about 160 already. Anyone else have any thoughts? PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

It has the appearance of a blog. It has a sort-of staff:. I'd be hesitant to use it for WP:N purposes. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

This is the terms its staff work under:

Basically they're unpaid volunteers who become voting members of the staff. They are expected to review an unspecified but regular number of books in order to maintain their membership. It isn't clear that there's much in the way of editorial oversight beyond a pledge not to plagiarize review material. Considering their concentration on volume of reviews and appearance of loose editorial standards I'd be hesitant to use this group to establish the notability of a book. Simonm223 (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

So just for notability purposes it is unusable or is it something that should not be included on pages that are notable? PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:03, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd say unusable for notability purposes. I'd likely leave it off other pages unless it had something significant to say that better sources didn't. Simonm223 (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Not an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 12:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Is “Zannettou, Savvas "A Quantitative Approach to Understanding Online Antisemitism". a reliable source for Happy Merchant

I can’t find evidence it’s been published. Doug Weller talk 19:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not up for reading it right now, but it's been published, and the correct citation is: Zannettou, S., Finkelstein, J., Bradlyn, B., & Blackburn, J. (2020, May). A quantitative approach to understanding online antisemitism. In Proceedings of the International AAAI conference on Web and Social Media (Vol. 14, pp. 786-797). Google Scholar shows a few places where it can be accessed. If it's kept, the references to it in the Notes section should change "Savvas" to something like "Zannettou et al." FactOrOpinion (talk) 21:01, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I should add that the Zannettou et al. citations that currently exist in the article are preprints, which generally are not RSs, per WP:PREPRINT. The other citation was also subsequently published in conference proceedings. Conference proceedings might or might not be reliable sources for specific content, depends on the conference and the content. FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

It's important to keep in mind that most of the preprints people link to as sources were eventually published; we just link to the preprints as courtesy links because they're usually what's available. PREPRINT even mentions this. --Aquillion (talk) 15:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, but in that case, you still need the correct citation for wherever it eventually appeared, and if there's a link to that final version in full, then you should link to the full final version rather than a preprint draft. In this particular case, the citations themselves were not for the final version, and the final versions are both available in full elsewhere. FactOrOpinion (talk) 15:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

What's the context for this question? Where is it being cited/do you want to be able to cite it? Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 03:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

@Hydrangeans I'm a bit confused by the question - did you look at the article? It's cited several times there and as I can't find evidence that it's been reliably published I don't think it should be used. Doug Weller talk 08:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry; that's my bad. I was running on low sleep and shouldn't have been on Misplaced Pages, and I read your prose where you don't include a link but glazed past the header text where you did include a link. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

See https://ojs.aaai.org/index.php/ICWSM/article/view/7343/7197 GordonGlottal (talk) 15:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Apologies, I missed another one, also apparently never published."Zannettou, Savvas, Tristan Caulfield, Jeremy Blackburn, Emiliano De Cristofaro, Michael Sirivianos, Gianluca Stringhini, and Guillermo Suarez-Tangil. "On the Origins of Memes by Fringe Web Communities." arXiv.org, September 22, 2018. https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.12512." Doug Weller talk 08:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I provided a link to the published version of that one in my second comment above. The citation is Zannettou, S., Caulfield, T., Blackburn, J., De Cristofaro, E., Sirivianos, M., Stringhini, G., & Suarez-Tangil, G. (2018, October). On the origins of memes by means of fringe web communities. In Proceedings of the Internet Measurement Conference 2018 (pp. 188-202). There's an alternate citation at the top right of the copy where it says "ACM Reference Format." FactOrOpinion (talk) 13:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

@FactOrOpinion ACM is reputable, but I seem to have forgotten that we can use published conference papers, but not papers simply presented at a conference. Sorry. Doug Weller talk 14:04, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I'm following. Both papers were published in conference proceedings. FWIW, even preprints are published in WP's sense of this term, which is only "a source that is made available to the public in some form." Even if there are no conference proceedings, it's possible to use a conference paper that was presented, as long as the presenter has made it publicly available (e.g., via something like arxiv.org). But all of this only establishes that the paper is published and therefore verifiable, not that it's a RS for the content in question. FactOrOpinion (talk) 14:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I mean when is a paper submitted to a conference run by a reliable organisation an RS? When submitted? If published as part of the publication of the conference papers? Doug Weller talk 15:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

A paper that's been submitted to a conference should be treated like a preprint. A paper that appears in conference proceedings is more likely to be an RS, but that will depend on whether the conference is one that reviews all papers in a way that's similar to peer-reviewed journals, and — as always — on the WP content that it's being used as a source for (a paper can be an RS for some content and not for other content). Assuming that the papers do substantiate the WP text, I'm guessing that they're RSs (Google Scholar indicates that they've been cited over 200 times). FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It is published, Conference proceedings of Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence (AAAI), volume 14. AAAI has been around since 1979 with respected associations. Submission to a conference is not sufficient to meet any standards. Acceptance by a reputable conference after peer review (some conference talks are invited and not peer reviewed) is a good indicator of reliability though not a guarantee (the conference paper may well be revised between acceptance and publication in a proceedings and even then might in the long run not be considered reliable). As it stands, I would say reliable for the use of Happy Merchant online unless other sources can be found undermining its reliability. Erp (talk) 15:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I would consider a paper published in the proceedings of a respected conference a reasonably reliable source. If it was contradicted by peer-reviewed research or, even better, a peer-reviewed meta-analysis of available literature I would give it a bit less due than those sources. But I'd say that yes, at its base, this looks reliable. Simonm223 (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks all. I'm really cross with myself for not checking on Google Scholar - ironically I've just done that with another paper. I would have saved you all a lot of time if I had done that. Doug Weller talk 18:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Hawar News Agency

Should we be using articles from the Hawar News Agency, especially in relation to the (geo)political side of Rojava? This also includes articles in the scope of the Syrian civil war. It has ties to the SDF, which means there is a significant conflict of interest here; I should also add that the YPG/YPD/SDF heavily censor narratives critical of theirs, which raises concern over its reliability. I want to get community consensus before I do anything, especially because the article in question (Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria) is related to a CTOP. 💽 🌙Eclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ 19:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

(Copying this response from the talk page of the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria:) Of course we have to use Hawar, simply because it is one the most prominent news sites from Syria. It shouldn't be used as the sole source for contentious issues (unless it cites claims), but for basic facts such as local election results, regional policy decisions, etc. it is one of the only sources available. It is also used as a source by academic researchers such as in The Kurds in the Middle East: Enduring Problems and New Dynamics, The Kurds of Northern Syria: Governance, Diversity and Conflicts, Soldiers of End-Times. Assessing the Military Effectiveness of the Islamic State, and Statelet of Survivors. The Making of a Semi-Autonomous Region in Northeast Syria.
(The following part is new, written for RSN:) These are books written by experts on Syria, released by reputable publishers such as ‎ Oxford University Press, and they have seemingly deemed Hawar to be a partisan, but useable source. Speaking from experience as an editor who has been active in editing articles on the Syrian civil war for ten years, I would also note that Hawar was previously discussed by editors and similarily assessed, as it is fairly reliable though should be used with caution in especially problematic fields such as casualty numbers (where partisanship becomes a major problem). Applodion (talk) 20:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Having read through the article you linked it doesn't show that media is heavily censored. A relevant sentence would appear to be:
"In the current situation, the journalists we interviewed usually stress that, on the one hand, they enjoy relative freedom of expression. The PYD did not forcefully close those it considers as antagonistic media. Reporters can move freely in the region and cover a wide array of issues. Additionally, journalists from international or regional media are also generally allowed to operate freely. However, they also say that there is always a tension with the authorities in power and there are red lines that cannot be crossed."
As well as:
"Gradually, they seem to have adopted an editorial line that is less critical, if not supportive, of the political system in Rojava. This support, according to some local journalists, is not due so much to direct imposition from the authorities, but rather to their own convictions and, even more important, to the feeling that doing otherwise would be very unpopular in a conflict-ridden context."
So it doesn't sound like they have the most freedom of media, but it appears a long way from heavily censored. Restrictions on reporting matters that could effect security are common in areas of conflict (and even outside of them).
Hawar News Agency has some WP:USEBYOTHERS and would probably be covered by WP:NEWSORG. Issues of bias (WP:RSBIAS) and opinion (WP:RSOPINION) don't immediately make a source unreliable. In general I would agree with Applodion, reliable but caution should be taken for issue where it's bias or censorship of security matters may effect it's reporting. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Agree with above, helpful to understand its bias, but this means to use with caution and understanding rather than preventing use. CMD (talk) 00:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Agree with the above. If we are citing it for contentious claims, then it's better we provide attribution. Unless OP or someone else can come up with credible sources that question the reliability of Hawar, I don't see any reason to worry about its inclusion. Looking over the article, it seems most of the citations to it are for easily verifiable facts (i.e. changes in AANES leadership, recognition by the Catalan parliament, etc.), rather than anything contentious. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

If we consider TRT sub-optimum in relation to Rojava and the Syrian war because of its affiliation to the Erdogan government (see above on this noticeboard), the same should apply to Hawar. It’s fine for reporting the statements by AANES/PYD/SDF or uncontentious facts, but it should always be attributed and triangulated for anything at all contentious. I’d rate it above Al-Masdar and below the SOHR for reporting facts about eg battles in the Syrian war, but like them is a weak source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Is there anything to show that Hawar is not independent of the SDF? I couldn't find anything making an explicit link. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested: "Misdirected US strike killed 18 allied fighters in Syria" from the Associated Press: "On Thursday, the group held funerals for 17 of its fighters in the border town of Tal al-Abyad, the SDF-linked Hawar news agency said...". 💽 🌙Eclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ 22:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

That would indicate a need for caution. Whether to the level of TRT I couldn't day. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 01:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The difference between Hawar and TRT seems to be how they are treated by independent academics and subject experts; as far as I know, TRT has been repeatedly accused of spreading outright falsehoods (such as here), whereas Hawar is seemingly deemed to be mostly reliable despite its connections to the PYD and SDF. Applodion (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

• Being censored is a WP:BIASED issue and a reason to use a source with caution (with attribution for anything remotely contentious), but it doesn't automatically render them completely unreliable. The big question is whether they're yielding to pressure to publish things that are actually inaccurate rather than just one-sided. If not, they can still be used with caution - we'd want to cite better sources when possible and avoid giving WP:UNDUE weight to a source with a clear bias, but there's some advantage to having sources that are close to conflicts. And a major problem with removing sources simply for being subject to censorship is that it could produce systematic bias by removing every source from a particular region; I'm not familiar with the Syrian press specifically, but in other regions with similar censorship, there's still a difference between sources that carefully report as much as they can get away with and as accurately as they can within the restrictions of government censors, and sources that full-throatedly broadcast misinformation to support the party line. --Aquillion (talk) 15:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

RfC: LionhearTV

Moved from Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines/Sources § RfC: LionhearTV – Royiswariii, 19 January 2025 00:55 (UTC)

I want your comments about the reliability of LionhearTV, I can't determine whether it is reliable or not, on New Page Sources, the Lionheartv is in the unreliable section, but, despite of that some editors still using this source in all Philippine Articles. So let's make a vote:

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Royiswariii Talk! 10:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Deprecate. The Philippines has plenty of WP:RS to choose from. If you are scraping the bottom of the barrel to find refs for something or someone and have to use this, I'd say consider against and don't add it to the article. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: For better understanding and context, especially for editors unfamiliar of this topic's origin:

LionhearTV is a blog site, as described on its "About Me" page, established in 2008 and functioning primarily as a celebrity and entertainment blog. The site is operated by eMVP Digital, which also manages similar blog sites, such as DailyPedia and Philippine Entertainment.

In addition to these blogs, LionhearTV organizes the RAWR Awards, which recognize achievements in the entertainment industry. This accolade has been acknowledged by major industry players, including ABS-CBN and GMA Network. Like other awards, the RAWR Awards present physical trophies to honorees.

A discussion about LionhearTV’s reliability as a source took place on the Bini (group) talk page in September 2024 (see Talk:Bini (group)/Archive 1 § LionhearTV as a reliable source). The issue was subsequently raised on the Tambayan Philippines talk page (Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines/Archive 52 § Lionheartv) and the WP:RSN (Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 452 § LionhearTV). However, these discussions did not yield a constructive consensus on whether LionhearTV can be considered a reliable source. The discussion at Tambayan deviated into a debate about SMNI, which was unrelated to the original subject. Meanwhile, the sole respondent at the RSN inquiry commented, It may come down to how it's used, it maybe unreliable for contentious statement or comments about living people, but reliable for basic details.

At this moment, LionhearTV is listed as unreliable on Misplaced Pages:New page patrol source guide#The Philippines as result of the no consensus discussion at RSN.

AstrooKai (Talk) 13:57, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Lionheartv is one person operation. How can there be editorial discretion on that case? Howard the Duck (talk) 14:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm more surprised on how a single person actively manages three blog sites and one accolade, with the accolade even giving out physical trophies to its winners. Like, how is he/she funding and doing all of these? AstrooKai (Talk) 14:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

It's immaterial on how we determine WP:RS. What could be very important that other WP:RS missed out on that only this blog carries? If it's only this blog that carries articles about something, it's not very important. This blog is the very definition of WP:RSSELF. I'm surprised we're having this conversation. A blacklist is needed. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Option 3. There's something about its reporting and organizational structure that is off compared to the regular newspapers. Borgenland (talk) 14:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Though, I find it strange and concerning that reputable sources copypasted some of LionhearTV's articles:

1. LionhearTV: https://www.lionheartv.net/2024/12/2024-spotify-wrapped-radar-artists-hev-abi-bini-lead-the-philippine-charts/ (December 8, 2024)
   Sunstar: https://www.sunstar.com.ph/davao/2024-spotify-wrapped-radar-artists-hev-abi-bini-lead-the-philippine-charts (December 10, 2024)
2. LionhearTV: https://www.lionheartv.net/2025/01/dylan-menor-signs-with-universal-records/ (January 11, 2025)
   Manila Republic: https://www.manilarepublic.com/dylan-menor-signs-with-universal-records/ (January 14, 2025)

These are two instances I found so far where other sources copypasted from LionhearTV. But I saw other instances where LionhearTV is the one who copypasted from other sources, such examples include:

1. LionhearTV: https://www.lionheartv.net/2024/12/moira-dela-torre-brings-her-new-album-im-okay-to-cinemas/ (December 30, 2024)
   Original: https://www.abs-cbn.com/entertainment/showbiz/music/2024/12/29/moira-dela-torre-brings-her-new-album-i-m-okay-to-cinemas-0948 (December 29, 2024)
2. LionhearTV: https://www.lionheartv.net/2024/06/bini-set-to-showcase-sneak-preview-of-their-new-single-cherry-on-top-in-mobile-game/ (June 27, 2024)
   Original: https://www.abs-cbn.com/starmagic/articles-news/bini-set-to-showcase-sneak-preview-of-their-new-single-cherry-on-top-in-mobile-game-22637 (June 24, 2024)

I honestly don't know about these editors, they just copying each other's works. Probably cases of churnalism. AstrooKai (Talk) 16:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Option 3 - As much as possible, LionhearTV and its sibling sites under the eMVP Digital should not be used as sources when more reliable outlets have coverage for a certain event, show, actor and so on. Even if a certain news item is exclusive to or first published in a eMVP Digital site, other journalists will eventually publish similar reports in their respective platforms (refer to some examples posted by AstrooKai). -Ian Lopez @ 15:03, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

What I fear in these kinds of low quality sources is that people will find something very specific about someone, e.g. "This person was seen in a separate engagement vs. the others in their group," and this low quality source is the only source that carried this fact, and since this it is not blacklisted, this does get in as a source, and most of the time, that's all that's needed. We don't need articles on showbiz personalities tracking their every movement as if it's important. Blacklist this. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion about moving RFC to RSN
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@AstrooKai, @Borgenland, @Howard the Duck, if you don't mind we can move this discussion to Noticeboard to get more opinions and votes on other experienced editors. Royiswariii Talk! 16:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC) Support. Borgenland (talk) 16:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC) Support. Though, I suggest finishing or closing this discussion so that we don't have two running discussions that tackles the same thing. If we want to construct a consensus, we better do it in one place. Alternatively, we first seek consensus from the local level first (by finishing this discussion) before moving one level up (the RSN). AstrooKai (Talk) 16:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 3It's a blog. That means WP:SPS applies. This means it might be contextually reliable for WP:ABOUTSELF or under WP:EXPERTSPS (with the usual condition that SPSEXPERT prohibits any use of SPS for BLPs) and so I don't see any pressing need for deprecation, but this is very clearly a source that is not generally one we should use. Simonm223 (talk) 15:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  FWIW, the person behind this blog is not a subject matter expert. Like, we don't even know who this is. (One subject matter expert in Philippine showbusiness that I know of that runs a similar blog is Fashion Pulis, and I event won't even use the blind items as sources there lol) As explained above, once this gets to be used as a source, it won't be challenged and people just accept it as is. This is a low quality source that has to be blacklisted. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah that's fine. I was just saying that, in general, those are the only two avenues to use someone's blog. Simonm223 (talk) 20:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option 4 Their reportings are obviously flawed and a per example above copypasting is a not a good look nor a good indication for "reliability" and it is often used in BLP, yikes. Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 12:01, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Hatebase.org

Is hatebase.org a reliable source? GoldenBootWizard276 (talk) 19:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Is there an WP:RFCBEFORE for this? And/Or some context for the use case? FortunateSons (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I have checked and I can't find any previous discussion, hence why I opened this one. There is an article about the site. I intend to use it to expand list of slurs articles. GoldenBootWizard276 (talk) 20:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I’m not making a statement on the source, as I’m not familiar with it .Then this doesn’t require an RfC, just a normal source discussion, if you’re concerned about reliability. Do you mind removing the descriptor from the title? And best of luck! :) FortunateSons (talk) 20:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay, I just added it because I saw some of the other discussions had it. I am removing it from the title. GoldenBootWizard276 (talk) 20:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That happens, don’t worry about it! Thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 20:39, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

used in 4[REDACTED] articles, seems highly premature. use best judgement until it can't be resolved in an article's talk page between editors, and needs wider[REDACTED] community feedback. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I wish this were otherwise because it looks like a really interesting website but it uses user-generated content. Which is a problem from an RS perspective. Simonm223 (talk) 20:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

None of the uses are for anything other than Hatebase itself, and as the site was been retired since 2022 it's unlikely it will see much more use ('retired' as it's been closed to editing, all user data deleted, and may go offline at any point, so not quite closed but very close). As most of the supporting data is gone, and what there was was user generated, I don't think it could be used as an RS. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

LaserDisc Database?

I'm working on adding citations to the home media section of King Kong (1933). I'm looking for a source that supports the sentence "Image Entertainment released another LaserDisc" . I've found the laserdisc in question on LaserDisc Database here. Can I use it as a source? The "register now" box states that users can "submit" new Laserdiscs, which implies some editorial oversight compared to other websites with user-generated material (although it looks like there may be just one editor). My other options are worldcat or interlibrary loaning the original Laserdisc. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The bottom of the page has "Disclaimer: The data on this webstite is crowd-sourced..." and from the page you linked it's unclear what amount of checking is done before any submitted updates happen. Worldcat is the better option. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

oops, I missed that. Thank you for the advice. I'll use WorldCat if I can't find a news article. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Usage of AirPlay Direct for music articles

Is airplaydirect.com reliable for use in articles about music (such as songs, albums, artists, etc.) GoldenBootWizard276 (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Per their about page they are not a normal news source, but a promotional platform. Their articles, etc are likely based on press releases and information from the subject of the article. So they might be reliable as a WP:PRIMARY source within the limits of WP:ABOUTSELF. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Global Defense Corp

Global Defense Corp should be deprecated as it is a incredibly unreliable source which frequently fabricates information they are incredibly biassed against Russian technology to such an extent as to lose all objectivity here I will share just a small snippet of the blatantly false information they have spread over the years

1. they've claimed that Azerbaijan using either an Israeli or Turkish drone was able to destroy a Armenian nebo-m radar which is impressive considering Armenia doesn't even have that radar or has at any point Displayed any interest in buying that radar there evidence for this is a footage of Azerbaijan destroying a p-18 radar and them claiming it's the nebo-m and they didn't just claim this once they've claimed it at least twice in two different articles.

2. in this article you can see a picture of the SU57’s internal weapons bays but what they don't tell you is that this picture is CGI at no point do they communicate this in fact they claim it's from the Sukhoi design Bureau even though it's not.

3. in this article they talk about how the S 400 range decreases against objects at low altitudes  which is true but fail to explain that this is true for all radar guided Sam systems thanks to an effect known as radar horizon where objects at low altitudes are able to hide behind the curvature of the earth and therefore can only be detected at certain distances but not only do they not explain this to the reader creating a false impression that this is an issue unique to the S 400 but they even claimed that Turkey accused Russia of fraud because of this. which is weird for several reasons one Russia has at no point claim that the S400 range does not decrease with altitude but also because it implies Turkey believed the S 400 could defy the laws of physics they also have no source of this claim and no other articles on the Internet claim this.

4. In this article they claimed SU57 lacks sensor fusion which it doesn't and then just ignore that low probability of intercept radar is a thing .

5. in this article they berate the S 400 for not intercepting Israeli F35’s in Syria but forgot to mention that Russia and Israel were long believed to have an agreement in the Syrian civil war to not engaged each other.

There bias is also evident in just in the words that they say frequently attacking Russian equipment with ad hominems such as cooling the S 400 ,another lame duck missile system, or starting there articles with stupid Russians or Russian equipment exposed. they also lack of any transparency no one knows who owns the website none of the articles say the names of the people that wrote them making the website Even more suspicious but despite all of this they are still frequently cited all the time on Misplaced Pages.

Sources 1.https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/02/01/turkey-exposed-fatal-flaws-in-russian-made-s-400-surface-to-air-missile/

2. https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2021/07/11/rostec-nebo-m-radar-is-it-a-scam-or-propaganda/

3. https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/12/28/russian-su-57-will-carry-four-missiles-in-the-internal-weapons-bay/

4. Radar Horizon. (n.d.). www.ssreng.com. Retrieved January 6, 2025, from https://www.ssreng.com/pdf/Radar_Horizon.pdf

5. Butowski 2021, pp. 78–82

6. https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/01/24/sukhoi-su-57s-x-band-n036-byelka-and-n036l-1-01-l-band-radars-are-not-what-you-think/

7. https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2019/09/22/over-hyped-s-400-and-s-300-surface-to-air-missile-failed-to-detect-f-35i-adir/

8. When Israel bombs Syria, Russia turns a blind eye. (2022, January 3). thearabweekly.com. Retrieved January 22, 2025, from https://thearabweekly.com/when-israel-bombs-syria-russia-turns-blind-eye Madnow2 (talk) 15:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Do we use them? Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The S 400 Misplaced Pages page has 20 citations from them and the su 57 Misplaced Pages page has four. Madnow2 (talk) 15:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that they're generally unreliable but I'm not so sure I'd chalk it up to bias rather than incompetence. They seem to be suggesting that the news they publish is a sideline to their core business of international security consulting... But they're spamming the cheapest ads on the internet alongside that content suggests that this is their primary income. To me it looks like a vanity site, I also suspect they are ripping stories off or using generative AI. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I will agree with you that they are incompetent But I think you can be incompetent and bias, some mistakes they've made such as having a image of the SU57 that is CGI on the web page and claiming it was a picture taken by Sukhoi I could see that being a result of incompetence but stuff like claiming Turkey accused Russia of Fraud over the S 400 because its range decreased against objects at lower altitude I have a harder time believing is just incompetence specially since the mistakes that they made seemed to always understate Russian equipment’s capabilities I have never been able to see and correct me if I'm wrong any incidents where they have overstated a piece of Russian equipment’s capabilities and yet I have seen dozens of mistakes in the opposite direction which suggests to me it is not random error. but quite frankly if their biassed or not I think is irrelevant even if we somehow conclude that they do have a neutral point of view there is still no way they could be considered a reliable source by Misplaced Pages standards as they do not meet the other criteria mainly the one which is in quote ‘Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy’ there is no universe where they pass that one and as a result they cannot be considered a reliable source something which you agree with this alone should be enough to get the website Deprecated irrespective of if their bias or not. Madnow2 (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the one thing that seems to be universally agreed on is that this is not a reliable source. Simonm223 (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I would agree, that regardless of whether it's bias or incompetence, it all adds up to unreliability. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Should we trust Social Blade for statistics

Certain pages about certain living subjects contain an infobox template that really emphasises view counts and subscriber statistics. However, that data is often sourced from Social Blade. Here's what WP's page about Social Blade says;

"An official YouTube Twitter account, @TeamYouTube wrote that "Please know that third party apps, such as SocialBlade, do not accurately reflect subscriber activity." Social Blade's Twitter account responded to that tweet, commenting "We don't make up data. We get it from the YouTube API. We rely on it for accuracy." Social Blade's community manager Danny Fratella suggested that YouTube content creators may notice subscriber and view count purges more due to a higher accessibility to data-tracking tools like Social Blade."

The question is should we trust it?

Plus, why do pages about gamers and vloggers place so much emphasis on what appears to be arbitrary, trivial information that is prone to fluctuation?𝔓𝔓 15:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It is WP:PRIMARY - I don't think WP:SELFPUB applies since it is drawing its data out of an API but I'd say it's a marginal source. Simonm223 (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It certainly isn't a source that I would trust but it is frequently cited in certain articles to populate value statement parameters such as subscriber count, view count, like count etc in this template. My understanding is that WP:PRIMARY sources shouldn't be used to verify value statements? 𝔓𝔓 17:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Prior discussions for reference; Aug 2021, Jan 2024, June 2024, RFC June 2024. The general opinion appears to be that it's marginal at best. Personally I doubt how reliable their data is, if it's available from the original source that should be used and if it's not available from the original source I wouldn't trust it. They also have 'rankings', which are worthless for anything other than the opinion of Social Blade. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

RfC: EurAsian Times

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Misplaced Pages proposals Politics, government, and law When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

The EurAsian Times (used to have its own article but it was apparently PRODed) is cited in several hundreds of articles, mostly pertaining to Russian military hardware and South Asian issues, but not exclusively. It was mentioned a few times on this noticeboard but only on a surface level.

In light of all this, how would you rate the EurAsian Times?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Thank you. Choucas Bleu 🐦‍⬛ 22:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC) PS: it is the first time I create an RFC, I hope it is not malformed

Survey (EurAsian Times)

• • Option 2/Do not enter to RSP I’d tend to evaluate depending on what the edit is, per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, and think no evaluation without that can be really valid except option2. In this case, I don't see a reason to make any RSP entry -- there doesn't seem to be a lot of RSN discussions to summarize or adjudicate and if it is in use hundreds of times then making a RSP entry at this point seems to be problematic. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:38, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion (EurAsian Times)

• Previous discussions at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 458#Eurasian Times (2024) Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 399#The Eurasian Times (2023), and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 389#EurAsian Times (2022). It looks like there's already consensus that it's unreliable and an RfC is not necessary. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:51, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, there is already strong consensus for its general unreliability (with just one dissenting editor in all of those discussions). I guess the only question is whether it should be deprecated, given its quite frequent use BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:30, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agree that most opinions expressed about it were negative, but it felt a bit like shaky ground to be able to know if it could still be used for some specific things, be treated as generally unreliable, or to actually deprecate. That is why I wanted clarification before potentially going on a hunt. Sorry if an RfC was overkill for this one, but I figured that since it is used quite a lot it could be good to clarify. Choucas Bleu 🐦‍⬛ 10:34, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

flightconnections.com

I wonder if flightconnections.com is a reliable source. Examples of it use are on Bozeman Yellowstone International Airport and Los Angeles International Airport. In both cases WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT asks for airlines and destination tables may only be included in articles when independent, reliable, secondary sources demonstrate they meet WP:DUE. I have doubt if flightconnections qualifies as reliable. The Banner talk 02:18, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't find any information about who runs the site or where it gets it's information from. There are quite a few articles promoting it or about how to use it, but that is unsurprising as it operates an affiliate programme. From a Google book search it has some extremely limited USEBYOTHERS (note several of the results are not reliable sources), but not enough to be meaningful. I couldn't get any useful results from Google Scholar. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:17, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I do see it as reliable. They are buying the data from one of the large brokers (likely either Cirium or OAG, I wish they said who) and simply providing a wrapper to explore that data, and selling ads and subscriptions to pay for the extremely expensive subscription the brokers charge. RickyCourtney (talk) 19:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

It can work at least as a starting point. It lists both charter and regularly scheduled flights. You can find the flight number of a given route and then cross-reference it on another source as well. --Precision123 (talk) 22:02, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Pegging

At this point, after educating people about pegging for the last 14 years, I do indeed qualify as an expert. I am the go-to person for information about pegging in the sex education world.

Could this conversation about the veracity of my 'opinions' in 2017 perhaps be reviewed? I am the only sex educator I know of who specializes in pegging. I have taught countless classes since 2012 (in person and over Zoom) for beginners, equipment, and advanced pegging, and written many, many articles about pegging as well. Were they published in magazines or on websites that made me edit the crap out of what I'd written until it lost its meaning? No. Wouldn't play that game because the message was too important to me, and because they wanted free material.

I am not a person of notoriety like Tristan Taormino or Dan Savage, but that does not mean I don't know what I'm talking about or what I put out into the world about pegging is just my 'opinion'. There have been no 'studies' on pegging and there aren't likely to be anytime soon, for obvious reasons.

Since when was the only measure of an expert their notoriety? I have gone down the rabbit hole of pegging and remained there. I have held space for all the different expressions of pegging during that time, which are numerous. I have advised hopeful givers and receivers how to approach their partners, while also educating them about the (intensely) common misconceptions and assumptions about the sexual act, and so many more things that are a part of pegging. Masculinity, role reversal, communication, etc, etc.

I have helped countless couples find the best equipment for them, which is much more complicated and individual than a cheap strap-on and dildo. Educating interested people about pegging has been my mission for the last 14 years. Other sex educators have more surface knowledge about this sexual act - knowledge that can be gleaned from a simple Marie Claire article.

My apologies if I sound a little irritated. My intentions are good. Famous people are not the best sources, necessarily. In sex education circles I am widely known as the go-to expert.

https://peggingparadise.com/ (my original website)

https://www.theartofpegging.com/ (my educational and patron platform)

https://pegging101.com/ (pegging with no kink for the vanilla people)

With Respect For All That You Amazing People Do, Ruby Ryder RubyRyder (talk) 05:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Ms. Ryder,

What would help here is if you could point us to either reliable, independent sources citing your work, or of you writing for publications that you don't publish yourself.... something that helps us see that, as you say, "in sex educations widely known as a go-to expert." I fully believe that you are.

The problem with someone using your sources as a reference has to do with Misplaced Pages's rules on using self-published sources, which your websites, videos, etc, count as. We can use such sources as reference (if within some limits), but only if we can see that the creator is a recognized expert in the field... and by recognized, that means either cited by or hired to write on the topic by reliable sources. I know that it seems like your voluminous experience and the visible quality of your materials should count for something here, but alas it does not. I don't think we'd be expecting, say, the New York Times or the Journal of the American Medical Association in this case, just some recognizable source that takes such sexual matters seriously. It doesn't even have to be material that is online (although that would help.) Articles that quote you or recommend your sites or training services would really help. Can you point us to such citations? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 06:10, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the work that you do. Unfortunately Misplaced Pages editors cannot use their own judgement to assess the expertise of someone. There are people who research topics and work in a field their entire lives who become experts in those fields and publish their work on their own websites. But there are also pseudo-experts who do the same thing. Editors on Misplaced Pages are not allowed to use their own judgement to discern the difference between the two, but must rely on a third party to establish their expertise. If you have ever given an interview on pegging for a newspaper or a magazine, or had your website cited by a sexologist or another recognizable sex expert as a good resource on pegging, for instance, then that would allow us to recognize the reliability of your site for the purposes of Misplaced Pages. Photos of Japan (talk) 07:46, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Could you comment on and notify the article talk page you want to edit? We really cannot help without context around what changes you want to include.

that conversation from 2017 is old. I have no clue if that is what Misplaced Pages editors believe today, nor the state of the article you want to change. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:47, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I am highly confident that Pegging (sexual practice) is the main article on the topic. Cullen328 (talk) 19:56, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I would concur. Simonm223 (talk) 19:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Their comment wasn't asking which page the 2017 discussion was on (which is linked to), but was asking RubyRyder to leave a comment on the talk page of that article. Photos of Japan (talk) 20:09, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

• Is the only reason we want to include this information because its from RubyRyder and it would be good publicity? or is there a specific bit of info that they want to include that is missing?
• have they tried including it and seeing what happens? (see WP:BRD) Are regulars who wrote and watch the pegging article notified that this debate is happening?
• This post seems mostly like rehashing and trying to start up an argument from 2017 for the sake of a debate. would like info on what we are doing here, exactly, and what the debate is?

Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:27, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Moved from Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2025 – Thank you for your response. I understand the reasoning. I was asked for other sources, and below I am listing well-known sexologists and people with letters after their name who have interviewed me on their podcasts.

Cam Fraser - the Power and Pleasure of Pegging with Ruby Ryder: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0naA7WaumMhL1t5wE2vaj5?si=IFqLYzGzT_aQomGXWKvSww&nd=1&dlsi=3c896a210a7d4408

Great American Sex Podcast with Sunny Megatron - Pegging with Ruby Ryder:https://sunnymegatron.com/ruby-ryder-pegging-paradise/

Great American Sex Podcast with Sunny Megatron - Butt Stuff 201: Pegging & Vagus Nerve w/ Ruby Ryder: https://sunnymegatron.com/vagus-nerve-pegging/

Smart Sex, Smart Love with Dr Joe Kort - Ruby Ryder on Pegging - https://joekort.com/ruby-ryder-on-pegging/

Please let me know if you have further questions or if I can help in any way - and if there is a better way to respond to this conversation.

With respect,

Ruby Ryder RubyRyder (talk) 19:37, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I will quickly note that Sunny Megatron is an XBIZ Sexpert of the Year award according to our XBIZ Awards page, and is used as a reference elsewhere. Joe Kort is clinical director of The Center for Relationship and Sexual Health. So these aren't random peoplecasts. That does not establish, of course, what information you are to be cited for... and as others have, I suggest that you take the issue back to Talk:Pegging (sexual practice) for fresh discussion. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

agreed. I think RubyRyder seems useful as an expert. their information could be used, if correctly attributed. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. These look like good sources. Ultimately the reliability of a source is dependent on the specific article text that it is being used to support, so your site still wouldn't be reliable to support a medical claim, for instance, but it should be reliable to support general statements about pegging. Photos of Japan (talk) 01:56, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

NationalWorld.com

What do we think about NationalWorld.com being used for a living porn star's month of birth? Courtesy ping to @Diademchild:.--Launchballer 19:04, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on National World, not necessarily crap. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:00, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Remember that WP:DOB says full names or birth dates should be widely published by reliable sources and that the standard for inclusion isn't just verification. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:17, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

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