| Revision as of 19:55, 24 May 2005 editJmabel (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators90,312 edits →Propose redirect← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 01:11, 9 October 2024 edit undoDrsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users828 edits →Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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| {{WikiProject Islam|importance=Low}} | |||
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| {{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=low}}<!--Common talking point--> | |||
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| {{center|1=This article survived '''two''' ''''']'''''. An archived record of these debates can be found ] and ].}} | ||
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| {{Archive box|search=yes| | |||
| * ] <small>(April–May 2005)</small> | |||
| * ] <small>(May–August 2005)</small> | |||
| * ] <small>(April–November 2005)</small> | |||
| * ] <small>(Nov 2005–Jan 2006)</small> | |||
| * ] <small>(January–April 2006)</small> | |||
| * ] <small>(April 2006–Aug 2009)</small> | |||
| * ] <small>(Aug 2009–April 2020)</small> | |||
| }} | |||
| == Archive notes == | |||
| Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. | Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. | ||
| If further archiving is needed, see ]. | If further archiving is needed, see ]. | ||
| '''Previous discussions:''' | '''Previous discussions:''' | ||
| *]: | *]: | ||
| :] | :] | ||
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| :] | :] | ||
| *]: May 9–August 11, 2005 | |||
| *]: April 13–November 29, 2005 | |||
| :] | |||
| :] | |||
| :] | |||
| :] | |||
| :] | |||
| *]: November 29, 2005 - 17:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *] | |||
| == Mentioning Islamic fascism as an actual phenomenon == | |||
| == Early history of this page == | |||
| Look to the talk pages ] and ] for much discussion of this text. --- ] 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Islamist VfD didn't work so they gutted it?== | |||
| And apparently they continue to do so - BrandonYusufToropov being just one example of those who stand guard removing ANY substantive edits on the matter. | |||
| Factually, the term IS used to describe Islamic regimes which ignore human rights, oppress their people, and generally behave in a Fascist manner. Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Hezbollah are great examples. ] | |||
| * Yes, that is the ]. ] 08:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::In case you missed the discussion, the identification of those regimes with the actual political-science term ] has been a matter of some dispute hereabouts recently. Whether you like the regimes or not is not the issue. As for "generally behaving in a Fascist manner ..." -- this tone, which you've imparted to the article, may be perceived as reckless and less than objective. ] 15:17, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, didn't miss the discussion, but that has NOTHING to do with the fact that the term itself is used often in connection with those nations/organizations. ] | |||
| ::::Yes, Syria is an Islamic regime, you have officially proven you don't know anything about what you're talking about.] 15:35, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Syria an Islamic regime? In what way? --]] 16:34, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I was being sarcastic. Syria has probably the most secular regime in the Middle East, due to the regime being controlled by a slightly heretical sect of Islam that is a minority in Syria.] 17:24, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Would other editors pls review ElKabong's changes == | |||
| Please discuss and/or pick the version that seems least POV.... thanks ] 15:33, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I've reverted back to the one that I last edited; the intervening edits either reverted my attempt to make the summary read better, or added back in a lot of PoV stuff. ] (] 15:45, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: My so-called "changes" were the reversion of losers like you GUTTING THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE. If you have SUBSTANTIVE changes to make, fine, but don't wholesale delete things because you're mad your attempted VfD failed. ] | |||
| :::Re: "Losers like you." Your work today is not biased or in any way a personal attack? Just checking. ] 15:53, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Just to define our terms, to a professional editor a "substantive edit" is a technical term which refers to changes to the structure and/or content of a document. This might include changing headings and heading levels, changing the point of view, revising conclusions, questioning the writer's facts or assumptions and generally ''adding and removing content''. In short, removing large chunks of nonsense would very much qualify as a "substantive edit".--] 17:09, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == How many reverts of the page is that for ElKabong? == | |||
| I have lost count. ] 15:56, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: I don't really care. How many is it for you, for that matter? A concerted campaign to gut an article is VANDALISM and so the three-reversions rule does not apply.] | |||
| :::Two. I'm disengaging from this discussion for a while in the hope that you will regain your composure. See you later. ] 16:04, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ] broke the 3RR, and has been blocked for twenty-four hours. ] is up to three reverts. The "vandalism" defence doesn't hold in this case ''on either side'', and I'm not playing favourites. If ElKabong comes back and starts the same behaviour, you should ask for page protection rather than simply reverting his edits (I'd normally say that you should reason with him, but the exchanges above demonstrate that that's not really a practicable option). ] (] 16:20, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Protected == | |||
| I've protected the page. This revert war is unseemly, and since one participant is happy to use multiple IPs to override 3RR blockage, I don't see much choice. --]] 17:27, 6 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: You should instead revert it to the state it was in before the whole thing started - before Grace Note vandalized the page in the first place.] | |||
| == Is "Islamofascism" a conspiracy theory? == | |||
| Since the term seems rather dubious to me I am wonder if it could accurately be labeled a "conspiracy theory"? As a separate question, why does the article only mention the "epithet" version of the term, I would have thought this article would be about politics or allegations of fascism. If this article's scope is only definining usages of the term itself then shouldn't it be transwikified to wikitionary? ] ] 01:19, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't see why not. ] 02:21, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :I do not know if it can be labeled a theory, but I am still worried about the uses of this word. I do not know who uses it now, though mainly I just see blogs and news reports (Nov-Dec 2001). I will try to check in the word usage and see if it is still used. But, as for the transwiki, I do not know if it can be done. ] ] 01:26, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: The word is in use all over the place. Not that it matters; with the topic locked and neutered, Misplaced Pages is worse than useless in this regard. And all to placate a swarm of POV-pushers who were angry that they lost a VfD vote and decided that if they couldn't eliminate it entirely, they'd make the article useless. The saddest part is that the Admins went along with it - though that's not surprising since the first Admin to abuse his authority in here, Mel Etitis, is one of the main "contributors" to the discussion and has proven he has no objectivity at all on the matter. ] | |||
| ::So says a user that just registered today, and already has knowledge of the history of the vote and the topic over the past few weeks. I'm not saying that you're a sockpuppet, Kainthescion, but your comment seems strange for a newcomer.] 03:46, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Maybe you've never heard of a "lurker" before, Yuber. Or maybe you're just incredibly biased on this topic. Whoops! A quick look through your talk page reveals that you're INCREDIBLY biased and shouldn't be let within 1000 feet of this topic. ] | |||
| ::::Comments about someone vandalizing my userpage, comments about having a link on an article, and comments about me categorizing ] as a zionist terrorist organization reveal me to be incredibly biased? Well, you're a strange lurker, you seem to have lurked this discussion and series of articles for a long time with no contribution.] 04:54, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have to agree with you on that one. I do not know much about this topic myself, but I know I am walking into a battle that has been ever raging. I do not know what else I can bring into the article, since I mainly got dragged into this page (and others that deal with Arab topics) due to vandalism. I just mainly want to know if a link to this article from a page called Islamist Terrorism would be considered OK or POV pushing (as some users have told me). ] ] 03:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Such a link would be a tool for instilling POV and would be totally inappropriate. ] 11:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I would say that a link to this page from the Islamist Terrorism page would be completely OK; they ARE related topics, even if this one has been shredded to bits by those who are mad that they couldn't get it completely deleted. Maybe THAT can get sorted out sometime soon. The old page actually had valuable information on it, while the vandalized one that's been locked in by an Admin on a power trip is almost worse than useless. ] | |||
| :It isn't a conspiracy theory since it isn't a ''theory''; it's an epithet that some editors here have turned into an ] "theory." ] 03:57, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually, it's neither a theory NOR an epithet, but a real term, admittedly recently coined, used to describe a very real political agenda. ] | |||
| :::It isn't a ''term'' unless it can be shown that the critical scholarship considers it to be one, rather than an epithet used to describe (and I won't comment on their description) a phenomenon (the fascistic tendency in Islam) depicted through (or within) more objetctively-phrased terms, concepts, constructs, etc. (theories, models, etc.). Until if and/or when this is demonstrated, my above statement stands-''o''. ] 04:11, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::So let me get this straight: it's not a "term" until some ivory-tower egghead puts it into a paper and gets it printed in a scholarly journal or into some book off the printing press? You're certifiably bonkers if that's your justification for claiming the term doesn't exist.] | |||
| :Don't troll, and don't play with semantics. ] 04:39, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Once again, KaintheScion, can you describe this fascistic agenda that is Islamofascism? I wouldn't recommend taking a dictionary.com definition and twisting it around as ObsidianOrder did.] 04:08, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| If it's a polical agenda why doesn't the article discuss politics at all really? Is "Islamofascism" anything in addition to being an "epithet"? Seems like this "epithet" describes an allegedly "fascist" political theory? Is Misplaced Pages really in the business of having articles on epithets like this? I bet the ] article is more informative. ] ] 04:14, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :An epithet is: ''a defamatory or abusive word or phrase; "sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me" or a descriptive word or phrase'' . To me, I do not know if Islamofacism is a word. is a posting I have read about this word (phrase seems to be the keyword on Google). As mentioned earlier, it is not used by our government, but mainly by political pundits (O'Reilly, Limbaugh). I have no clue on how to make it POV, since most of the sites I am finding now that deal with this issue are stinking blogs. ] ] 04:16, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::By your definition there, the terms ] and ] are both epithets. But they are also real terms. What is disgusting is not the fact that this page has entries on the word's use as an epithet, but that there are actually people here deliberately trying to ensure that this page does NOT discuss the rest of the term, its meaning, how and why it is used, and what it really represents. What is DOUBLY disgusting is the fact that they've gotten away with this abuse courtesy of admins who are actively trying to enforce precisely that POV.] | |||
| :::You can aim for a better straw man — not all words that, in that specific sense, are (sometime) employed as epithets, are limited to that use alone. ] 04:39, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Technically, this can be called a political epihet. From the main article on political epithets: "Many political epithets are obtained by joining an otherwise neutral description of a political movement or group with a pejorative term questioning the groups's sanity or motives, or associating the group with hated political movements or leaders of the past." It qualifies as that since a word that is a neutral description of a group (Islam, the religion) is combined with a word that is questioning the groups motives and the term is associated with groups past that are hated (fascism, the political idiology of Hiter and Mussolini). Though all we have is basic quotes on when the term is used, but we should give more background detail into the word, such as, who started it, where it was first published, if this word is used now and mention on why this word is offensive to the Muslim population. ] ] 11:08, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Slippery slope. We tried that. The article quickly turned into a food fight. "Intelligent people believe X about the topic, whereas idiots, on the other hand, believe Y." ] 11:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No, it was just fine up until your VfD attempt failed and you, Grace Note, and Yuber started systematically removing all content of value from the article.] | |||
| ::::::You seem to know an awful lot about this conflict, Kain. How is that? I mean, you're a brand new user, right? ] 17:12, 7 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == When page is unprotected... == | |||
| Can someone add the {cleanup} header to this article, in my opinion it needs it badly. Also, I think the {disputed} header is more appropriate than the {npov} header as there is a dispute over whether excluding definitions of this term that aren't "epithet" related is the right thing to do. {TotallyDisputed} could work too but first and foremost the factual accuracy of this article is disputed (since facts are systematically being excluded). ] ] 21:29, 8 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I don't see that it's in need of cleanup as such. It's perfectly readable. There are no facts being excluded. The proponents of the original research into Islamofascism as a concept have been asked to source their contentions and have provided nothing. ] 23:14, 8 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::* It should be noted that Grace Note is the user who touched this whole thing off by vandalizing the article in the first place. . His/her contribution to any discussion of this topic ought to be deemed worse than meaningless.] | |||
| ::* All he did there was revert to the last version by Jayjg, maybe you should go harass him.]<sup><small><font color="#FF8C00">]</font></small></sup> 23:44, 8 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::* BULLSHIT, Yuber, and you're really one to talk. From the headers of the edits: | |||
| :::Revision as of 04:08, 3 May 2005 | |||
| :::Fredwlerr (Talk | contribs) | |||
| :::restore last good version | |||
| :::Revision as of 04:12, 3 May 2005 | |||
| :::Grace Note (Talk | contribs) | |||
| :::rv to Jayjg | |||
| :::Grace Note wasn't "restoring" anything; he/she was engaging in vandalism. Go read the rules: wholesale content deletion, without a consensus on the Discussion page (and there isn't one) is vandalism] | |||
| You seem to know a lot about the "rules" for a new editor. It's only a pity you didn't read the rules on civility. ] 00:15, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :This KaintheScion guy is starting to sound more and more like an LGFer. He edits the Islamofascism and Rachel Corrie articles on a regular basis and keeps calling people Islamists. But I'll assume good faith :).00:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)]<sup><small><font color="#FF8C00">]</font></small></sup> | |||
| ::My problem with this word, and based on talks with a few users on the ] is that there is no key definition of this word. People use fascist all of the time to describe activity that is being restricted or a situation is being tightly controled and enforced. As stated above, it is a political epithet since it combines a term that is associated with past evils and with a term that is normally used to describe a group. I do not disagree that this term is used, but mainly, as I also said, the term is being used in blogs. So what we (the people here) should decide is what to include in here. The "defintion" of this term is fine, though we should give a small background on it (who first said it, when it was first said, where it was said, where it is used now, different spellings, why the term was even coined). The quotes can be kept, since it is showing the users on how the term is used. ] ] 00:51, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::No one has any problem with ''properly sourced'' material along those lines, given that the article survived VfD. What is problematic is unsourced speculation about a nonexistent political movement. There's no dispute that it is used, and I suppose there's some case for suggesting that it's notable that rightwingers abuse their enemies by calling them fascists (when they are not accusing them of being communists, of course), although I tend to agree with those who believe that that discussion belongs on a page about "fascist" as an epithet. The article you are suggesting would still not be about "Islamofascism", which doesn't exist, but about the use of the word "islamofascism" to label a wide variety of Muslims. ] 01:25, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::However, will blogs be consdiered ''properly sourced'' material? ] ] 01:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::They are only sources for what they themselves have said. ] 02:05, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::I see too much logic on what is commented by all of you above, with a single exception -that of KaintheScion because of the fact that he/she is still not being clear about his/her identity. People who started this article are the same who call people with whom they disagree ''Islamists''. I still remember Klominus claiming a win over ''Islamists'' (0-4). I still remember another one saying ''do not let islamists hijack WP'', etc... These are hate messages and are a proof that you can call your opponent anything you want!. This shows that those people got an agenda behind! There is no islamists no x-ists, there are only WPdians. | |||
| ::I still believe that this term exists along with ''Christian fascism'' and ''American fascism''. I still believe that it is an epithet (being myself who added the link to LeeHunter article called ] on top of the article). And I still believe that all those me-you-fascism articles SHOULD be included together in LeeHunter article. | |||
| ::Between, I would not have an objection citing Hitchens in the article as being the one who coined and invented this term. Cheers and respect from ] 01:57, May 9, 2005 (UTC) <sup> ] </sup> | |||
| ::: Hitchens didn't coin it. This is part of the problem. It suits the agenda of the POV pushers to suggest that Hitchens might have coined it and that it represents something cogent, but he did not. At first, he simply called the 9/11 terrorists "fascists". ] 02:05, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The Hitchen's claim is what I see in the blogs. From doing a Google search, some people claim Michael Savage coined it. Plus, the idea Svest gave is not a bad idea at all. ] ] 02:10, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::I had a look at the first article of Hitchens after 9/11 arguing against Husseini and Chomsky. You are right GraceNote; he coined nothing. However, if someone else coined it than why not mention it. Again, I do believe that it is an epithet and future readers would believe so, whatever we include abour who coined it or not. | |||
| :::For me, that is not the story. My point is that, -as explained loudly here as well as in ] and ], I am against hypocrisy of some WPians. They apply their POV which is based on Anti-muslim agendas. They think that this is a podium for their hate comments; no wonder they created another one called ] and voted an extreme delete for both articles they feel bothered with. If they can't agree this is an epithet than there would no concensus about this article. | |||
| :::For me, the ideal scenario for this article would be to merge it with other x-fascisms into ] of LeeHunter. If not, than the referal on top of this article to the epithet article SHOULD REMAIN and than there would be no big deal saying that the term is used mainly in blogs by X people and that it was coined by Y. Cheers and respect from ] 03:03, May 9, 2005 (UTC) <sup> ] </sup> | |||
| Oh look, here goes Yuber trying the usual tactic - try to associate your opponent with someone you don't like. And then a bunch of POV pushers show up going "hate speech, hate speech." This looks either like an LGF or Indymedia board now. The fact that a user named "Fayssal" is trying to hide this by signing as "Svest" is just icing on the cake. Fayssal, you obviously have a POV you're trying to push here rather than being interested in seeing a vandalized article put right.] | |||
| :Look my friend. I am not hiding anything since you know everything. There is no magic about that I suppose. I didn't kill Caligula. I've been signing as Svest since my first day or if we can put it straight, ''since the day you got to know me''. I think my only POV is about other people's POV. They are swearing that ''Islamofascim'' exists and not ''American fascism''. If you are ''familiar'' with all the discussions we have had, than you would understand what I am not ''icing on the cake''. | |||
| :We are not here to attack eachother. I gave facts that people are attacking others personally as this is documented. I don't care if someone is a new or an old user as long as she/he is welcomed and free to change accounts and participate in a civilized and responsible way. The thing is that I rarely enter in those kind of discussions. I try to stick to the subject that it is the article. But since you insist in knowing about my feedback than I'd tell you that I don't care who you are but I may care about what you say and contribute. People are concerned about you because you are new and you know a lot of things and if someone looks at your contributions he may question your agenda (Saudi Arabia, Edward Said and this article). If you are not happy with what I am saying, please let me know and explain better your concerns. Cheers and respect from ] 06:23, May 9, 2005 (UTC) <sup> ] </sup> | |||
| ::From what I notice here is that everything is boiling down to is attacks against users, not the issues of this page. The next section below us is a good start on how to tackle the various issues of this article, but the personal attacks are getting us nowhere. If you guys have some really serious issues between each other, then I would suggest try to get some outside help on Misplaced Pages, like an abritation/intervention. Until then, let's focus on what the topic at hand: trying to make this article NPOV as much as possible. ] ] 18:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::One more thing, Liberal is not a political epithet, but a neoconservative is. The word, shorthand version is neocon, described as "Compared to other U.S. conservatives, neoconservatives are characterized by an aggressive moralist stance on foreign policy, a lesser social conservatism, weaker dedication to a policy of minimal government, and a greater acceptance of the welfare state." ] ] 04:15, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Lists of undisputed, disputed and rejected information== | |||
| Here's an experiment which hopefully will clarify what, if anything, could be added to this article without sparking a revert war. To this end I've created three subheads here: undisputed, disputed and rejected. If there's some factual, sourced information that you think can be added to the article without argument put it in the "undisputed" section. If there's something that should be in the article but there is controversy over how it should be worded or whether there should be some qualification, put it in disputed. If it's something that you think is flat out unacceptable and which you personally would automatically revert, put it in "rejected". You can also ''demote'' information, for example from undisputed to disputed or even to rejected, '''but please don't move anything back up. In other words, if someone says they're going to dispute it then it belongs in the "disputed" section etc''' The object here is not to argue whether anything is particularly right or wrong, just to see get a feel for how we could move forward with an unlocked article. | |||
| ===Undisputed=== | |||
| * the word is a neologism | |||
| * it is used mainly by right wing commentators (columnists and bloggers) in the US. | |||
| * the word is used as an epithet | |||
| ===Disputed=== | |||
| * Whether or not the term is solely an epithet. | |||
| * Information into the actual definition and use of the term | |||
| **<small> Please, be gentle signing your entries and comments. An anonymous or a registered user, just sign please! Cheers from ] 19:58, May 10, 2005 (UTC) <sup>] | |||
| </small> | |||
| : I note that the supplied link is to a writer who apparently believes that Islam is incompatible with democracy and that any system that is not democratic is fascist. This is an extraordinary viewpoint and would be rejected by at least myself and probably others. --] 20:29, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Faithfreedom.org is heavilly anti-Arab. The host of the website claim Muhammad is a pedophile, murderer and other things. ] ] 20:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Having sex with a ] is consistant with being a pedophile. ] 03:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The purest kind of horseshit. First of all, that information is highly disputed (I mean we're talking about an event that supposedly took place in the privacy of someone's bedroom 1400 years ago and even her date of birth, according to that article, could be anywhere from 605 to 613). Even a hundred years ago the ] was as young as ten in some places. To try and apply 21st century Western standards where the life expectancy is now 70+ to somebody who lived 14 centuries ago when an old man was someone who live past 35, to apply the term pedophile to someone who married within the laws and norms of the time, well its just beneath contempt. Pure ]. You should be ashamed. --] 04:23, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: But there does seem to be ] that Muhammad did indeed have sex with a nine year old girl. Saying that Muhammad had sex with a ] is not as I understand it "]", although I am open to change my mind on this issue if you can present convincing evidence that saying that Mohammed had sex with a ], with evidence to support that assertion as factual is hate speech. | |||
| ::::::: There is no "proof" of hate speech. It's always subject to interpretation (in some jurisdictions by the courts). For example, to a Nazi, ]'s words are harmless, to others it's hate speech. There is no 'evidence' as such, except for the words themselves. I've already addressed your "evidence" in my previous comment. --] 16:10, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: Also note that Richard II of England married an 8 year old . Was he a "pedophile" (which means someone who has a taste or preference for young girls) we cannot say. What we do know, is that up until very recently marriages in Europe and the Middle East were mostly arranged by the family. Calling a 13th century person a "pedophile" because they married, or were ordered to marry, a young girl is just silliness. But not too surprising given the level of this debate. --] 18:11, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Richard II is another debate, and a different situation. Mohammed's marriages were not "arranged by the family" or such bullshit: look through his list of wives. | |||
| :::::::::# - Khadija Bibi, married for money. After her death he had at least 11 more wives in 14 years. | |||
| :::::::::# - Safiyah - Killed her tribe, beheaded her father in front of her, took her to bed, and the next morning called it a "marriage." | |||
| :::::::::# - Maria the Copt - concubine taken from Egypt; was the reason Mohammed threw out his own decree that men with multiple wives should keep to a strict rotation for the sake of fairness. | |||
| :::::::::# - Zainab - before Mohammed married her, was the wife of his adopted son. Isn't that nice? | |||
| :::::::::At the very least, Mohammed was a lecher. At worst, there are numerous other things one could glean from the sheer number of women he went through, especially since it so conveniently was "reserved for him alone" (sounds like a David Koresh thing there, or how innumerable other cult leaders routinely amass harems). Whether you consider FaithFreedom.org to be anti-Arab or not, the EVIDENCE is irrefutable.] | |||
| ::::::::::Not refutable? According to your own source (the WP article you cited earlier), Aisha was, in fact, an arranged marriage. Also see ] --] 18:39, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::: Well, ] was probably a pedophile also. However, Richard did not go running around in the desert telling people he was god's messenger, and that god said it was ok for him to bang a ]. ] limited himself to being the king of the england. ] 20:45, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::As it is, my understanding of the facts is that there is ] that Muhammad as an ] did indeed have sex with a ], and that to me is '''prima facie''' evidence of ]. Perhaps Lee you could give us an example of non pedophilic sex between an adult and a nine year old? ] 15:35, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::<nowiki>{{subst:</nowiki>]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> would take up too much room. —]] 04:58, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::First of all, you're engaging in "shooting the messenger." Whether or not YOU claim the site is "anti-Arab", the fact remains that the site is one of those that uses the term, and that the article clearly shows that the term is not merely an epithet. | |||
| :::Second, your attack on the "claims" of the group is suspect, because each of those views of Mohammed can be (and is) borne up by Koranic quotations. That is a subject of controversy that has no bearing on the other part of this discussion. | |||
| :::Third, while Misplaced Pages is NPOV, there is a prior requirement that material in an encyclopedia needs to be FACTUAL. Sins of omission are just as POV as sins of untruthfulness or sins of poor wording. Therefore, I will INSIST that this material MUST be included, otherwise the article is INCOMPLETE. ] | |||
| ::::Again -- you appear to have a deep, impassioned familiarity with this debate. How is this possible? Aren't you a brand-new user? Why didn't you want to answer me the last time I asked you this? ] 19:47, 10 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Looking up the page, it appears you asked KaintheScion this question and not me. As for me, the situation isn't hard to understand: all it takes is a little time reading back through the discussion page and the page's previous revisions to see your edits and those of your friends for what they are: a transparent POV-pushing attempt to kill through content vandalism an article you couldn't kill by VfD. What appears to be the larger problem is that those who voted in the VfD assumed good faith and didn't keep an eye on you afterwards. ] | |||
| ::::Ah yes. KaintheScion. Another impassioned proponent. My mistake. How long have you been following this debate, anyway? And why doesn't any information show up on your user page? ] 20:19, 10 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::I (as well as a dozen of people in this discussion) insist that this material should not be included. ElKabong, following your logic, you would be accepting that people would start ''American Fascism'' and bring materials of a kind of Faithfreedom.org? There are plenty of them online. So you want to bring all internet garbage into WP just because you insist? We all agree that the term is an epithet intended to put down one's opponent. For everyone there is an opponent, and for everyone there is a fascist somewhere! No garbage in WP please. No government, no institution; be it academic or political, recognizes ''Islamofascism''. Cheers and respect from ] 19:52, May 10, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| ::::Fayssal, if I could imagine for one minute that an article started by YOU on "American Fascism" would be properly factual and NPOV, including the bona-fides of the sources and the multiple sides of any argument made rather than just "oh it's just an epithet", I'd say to go ahead. But it's obvious from the comments of you and BYT that that would never happen, just like you are determined to make sure that this article remains gutted of factual information and as POV-biased as possible. ] | |||
| :::::The Internet is full of gay-bashers, Moslem-bashers, US-bashers, Jew-bashers, white supremacists, black supremacists and a million other howling voices. And they all have their rambling rationales and manifestos for hating whoever it is they hate. I suppose we can note that these sites exists and that they use certain words to describe their enemies (nigger, kike, running dog of capitalism etc. etc.) but we do a disservice to the reader if we present pure frothing ] as if were somehow mainstream academic discourse. --] 20:42, 10 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Then quotes and usage by true Academics like Daniel Pipes should be put in, shouldn't they? It is no worse than an article on Israel having quotes by Edward Said. Once again, stop moving this to "Rejected", because as long as the article claims that the term Islamofascism is "only" an epithet, it is factually incorrect.] | |||
| :::::::Daniel Pipes is very controversial and accused of the same of what Lee is talking about. Pipes and his POV associated some notable academic profeSsors from Columbia, Harvard and Berkeley with ''Suicide bombers'', just because they are against Israeli occupation! Can we trust Pipes? He is accusing everyone who is being against Israeli occupation. No wonder why he can love a term like ''islamofascism''. The entry of his article in WP states that ''He is widely criticised as an Islamophobe''. Read this again: ''In August 2003, news leaked of Pipes' imminent appointment to the U.S. government-sponsored U.S. Institute of Peace. Soon afterwards, a broad array of Arab-American, American Muslim, and other groups, vehemently denounced the appointment, claiming that Pipes was a racist, anti-Islamic extremist. Several Democratic senators, including Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts) and Christopher Dodd (D-Connecticut), expressed opposition to the nomination and delayed a committee vote on it, though President Bush bypassed the Senate and proceeded with a recess appointment. This incident was the latest in the series of confrontations Pipes has had with various U.S-based Islamic groups, especially the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). CAIR maintains that Pipes is an anti-Islamic bigot, while Pipes in turn charges that CAIR is an apologist for Islamist terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas (see external links). Pipes is also controversial in academia, where his neoconservative positions — especially his strong support for Israel and his argument that Islamism is a threat to the West — conflicts with the views of some Middle East scholars, such as John Esposito, who describes Islamist movements as political forces leading to democratic progress. Pipes was also criticized by Edward Said, a critic of Orientalist scholarship''. He got an agenda, period! ] 21:06, May 10, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| :::: Daniel Pipes is a pretty darn credible and well cited individual. Edward Said is a silly academic fraud like ] (See the Commentary Article by Efraim Karsh showing how Edward Said has made up many things about his past). ] 03:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| He's got an agenda? So do you, obviously, or you wouldn't be using a POV-laden term such as "Israeli Occupation" (remember, there wouldn't even BE Palestinian "refugees" had Egypt, Syria, and Jordan not held onto the land they overran in the 1948 war, or if they had signed the offered nonagression pact with Israel). And of course those who are denouncing him have an agenda as well. The article would be better served by covering BOTH sides of the argument rather than leaving tremendous amounts of information out. The article that's locked in right now is a travesty, a one-sided POV joke. ] | |||
| :::'''Deja vu all over again department:''' Exactly how long have you been following this debate, anyway, ElKabong? And why doesn't any information show up on your user page? Is it my imagination, or are you avoiding these questions? ] 21:25, 10 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, POV-pusher, I'm deliberately ignoring you because your MO is to sit around and hunt for ways to make ''ad hominem'' attacks, and you're not worth dealing with. ] | |||
| ::My agenda rhymes with what LeeHunter commented above. This is not a place for hate speech. I don't care about Israel or Egypt or Syria or Jordan or Palestine! I care about that ''Islamofascism'' is an epithet. Pipes can call whatever he wants as whoever can call him whatever they want. Pipes and his opponents can't go teach what they preach in universities or apply what they say in a government policy. It is a POV. This is what we comment here. There are thousands of people accusing in newspapers and books others for being the evil. Do we have to give them a room here? ] 21:24, May 10, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| :::But the article is here, and you POV-pushers are giving space only to the POV of opponents of the term. And it survived a VfD. Leaving it with the claim that the term is purely an epithet is POV, and that needs to be remedied. ] | |||
| ::::Dear friend, I will not comment your judgements about ''me'' and ''us''. I will just say again that nothing's got to be remedied. There are more people who are against the term than people who are with. Hitchens, Pipes and others cannot be compared with the quantity of others who are against. That's why you ''think'' what you think above. ] 21:40, May 10, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| :::::I'm no friend of yours, Fayssal, so knock that nonsense off, you POV-pushing jerk. Likewise your backhanded claims about what I "think." As long as only one side of the debate on the term is represented in the article, it's not properly NPOV. ] | |||
| ::::::ERROR! FILE NOT FOUND! <sup> ] | |||
| :::::::Everyone, let's all take a chill pill and let's find out what is going on. Fact: Islamofascism is not used by mainstream media (CNN, AP, Reuters). Some people who have used this term can be deemed "radical left wing." The word is also mostly used by bloggers now. | |||
| :::::::As for the political epihet stuff, my stance that this term can be considered it, based on sources I have cited before, mainly the Misplaced Pages article on political epihets. But here is the thing that I notice: take out the quotes and pretty much the article will be nothing more than the same information at political epihets. I know this page has survived a VFD before, but I seriously think if this debate will gut the page, why not just put this page to sleep and redirect it to political epihets. ] ] 23:32, 10 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Zscout, if it were only a political epithet that might work. But it's a political epithet in the same manner that the words "liberal" and "neoconservative" are political epithets; each also represents a very real concept and ideology that deserves its own entry. Just not a gutted-to-uselessness-by-POV-pushing-morons one. ] | |||
| ::::::::: You write "But it's a political epithet in the same manner that the words "liberal" and "neoconservative" are political epithets". Surely you're not serious? Where do I begin? First of all, "liberal", "neoconservative" and "fascist" are not primarily epithets. They are simply long-established terms in political science for universally recognized political stances. It's true that in the minds of people who don't like liberals the word "liberal" is a cuss word but real liberals don't mind being described as "liberal" any more than neoconservatives mind being called "conservative" or astronauts mind being called "astronauts". Your supposed "Islamowhatever" on the other hand, is only used by a couple of columnists and a whole raft of obscure, self-appointed, and sometimes anonymous Internet pundits to envelope anything-we-don't-like-about-Moslems. That's how I see it, but then I am, as you put it, just another ] | |||
| :Here is, for the umpteth time, the definition of a Political Epithet, from the Misplaced Pages article: "Many political epithets are obtained by joining an otherwise neutral description of a political movement or group with a pejorative term questioning the groups's sanity or motives, or associating the group with hated political movements or leaders of the past." Islamofascism (or Islamofascist) is an example of this, since a neutral description of a group (those who follow the religion of Islam) with a pejorative term questioning the group's sanity or motives (fascism, mainly to question Islam's "motives." Though the defintion of a political epithet does not include on who has to use what, but I just think with my case I stated, this can be proven it is a political epithet. Now, what else do I have to do to prove my point? ] ] 04:11, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Really the burden of proof is on the person who uses the word and that proof is dead simple. If A) there are truly a significant number of islamofasicts and B) it's not a pejorative term, then the proof is to find people who proudly declare themselves to be "islamofascists" or perhaps to point to organizations like the "Islamofascist Society of America". Would all the islamofascists out there please raise your hand? --] 13:55, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Oh please, LeeHunter. That's like claiming China isn't a Communist nation because they claim their official name is the "People's Republic of China." ] | |||
| ::::ElKabong -- you seem to have a deep familiarity with the kinds of conflicts that come up on these talk pages. Yet apparently you are a brand-new user. Why is there no information attached to your username? '''Oh, that's right. I've asked you these questions multiple times, and you've refused, each time, to answer them. Good thing you're not a sockpuppet or anything.'''] 16:12, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Not at all. If anything, China is an excellent example of what I'm saying. To some people in the United States "communist" is a dirty word, but not to someone who is truly a communist. Nobody inside or outside China would deny that the government is based on a communist system (although rapidly shifting to some other model) and the Chinese themselves would not view the word "communist" as pejorative. This is in very sharp contrast to "Islamofascism". So I repeat my challenge: Show me the Moslems who identify themselves as Islamofascist. --] 16:07, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Counter: IF the Chinese were indeed not embarassed by the name "Communist", they would have labeled their nation the "Communist Nation of China" or somesuch. But they don't. Every communist nation tries to dress their national title up in some other word; "People's Republic", "Democratic People's Republic", etc. The behavior of Islamofascist governments (such as Iran) is no different - and yes, I consider Iran to be an Islamofascist government, because their MO is classic Fascist with the only exception that rather than enforcing Atheism, they enforce Islam as the state religion. The behavior of Islamofascist movements which believe they can force Islamic rule and ''Shari'a'' law onto other nations, likewise.] | |||
| :::::So the Chinese named their country the "People's Republic" because they were just too embarrassed to call themselves "The Communist Republic of China"? Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floor. I give up on this conversation. I guess it's true what they say about the American education system. --] 17:25, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If you can find me ONE communist nation that actually has the word "Communist" in their title, I'll concede your point. Otherwise I'll remain of the opinion that you're a flaming moron. ] | |||
| ::::::::So far you've made the astonishing claim that ] were embarrassed to call themselves "communist" (I'm still chuckling over that one), that ] is a "classic fascist" state, and that the phrase "Israeli occupation" is a POV term. I'm actually rather pleased that you think I'm a flaming moron. I'd be worried if you thought otherwise. --] 18:50, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I don't agree about Lee comments on the American education system. Everything is relative. Zach is a good example of being well educated. | |||
| :::::::Elkabong, does the USA got a "democratic" title on its name? The Democratic Republic of Congo, yes. Is the Republican Party not democratic? Is the Democratic Party is not republican? Please see what I replied below about parties. Communism is not a sin neither it is an evil as you were taught. The evil is the lack of comprehension and knowledge. You were born in a village were everything that doesn't rhyme with the American model is evil. Communism failed because it was more a theory than a practical stuff, not because you knocked it out. Everything is relative, there's evil everywhere and there are angles everywhere. Your claim that China doesn't use the term Communist in its name because it is ''shamefull'' is a kind of a joke. You can't say that kind of jokes even in a high school, let alone Misplaced Pages. ] 17:54, May 11, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| :::Well commented Lee. Hi again ElKabong. People's Republic of China is ruled by '''The Chinese Communist Party'''. Il Duce's party was called '''The National Fascist Party'''. The führer changed the name of the German Workers' Party to the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, NSDAP), usually known as '''the Nazi party'''. In the Muslim world, there is no such party or organization using the term ''fascist''. In other words, the Muslim nation (if really there is a nation existing) are just muslims and Islamist terrorists are just terrorists. Please, let's go forward and not waste eachother's time about that. Cheers and respect from ] 16:30, May 11, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| :::I mainly wanted to end this with my post: Disputed-Whether or not the term is "solely" an epithet. What else do I need to do is make this item not disputed. ] ] 14:39, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hi Zach. I think the item is no more disputed. You, Lee, Brandon, GraceNote, Yuber, jpgordon, Mel Etitis, Stancel, Charles Stewart, El_C, Firebug and me all agree that it is an epithet. On the other hand, Zenmaster(I respect his comments and contributions), Klominus (who usually comes to just leave us a line of irony, KaintheScion (no comment) and ElKabong (giving us arguments like even Syria fits into this article) do not agree. Does that mean that 12 people are POV pushers? I fear the answer in no. Please let's move forward. Cheers and respect ] 17:12, May 11, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| ::::No, the issue is not whether it is an epithet, but whether it is SOLELY an epithet. 12 POV-pushing vandals does not mean a consensus. ] | |||
| :::::Do you argue even about SOLELY? Please Zach, remove SOLELY. Keep it PLAIN epithet. ] 17:38, May 11, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| ::::::Presenting it as only an epithet is inaccurate. ] | |||
| :::::::For the time being, it is just an epithet. When G.W.Bush starts saying it is not solely an epithet and that is something else, we will follow. ] 18:01, May 11, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I agree with Svest on this one: we will not hear President Bush or anyone connected to him or the mainstream media use this word, since everyone from the ] to the ] will jump up and down, kick, scream and do everything to make sure the epithet is never uttered by them. So it is pretty certain it will remain an epithet at best, insult at worst. ] ] 19:07, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::One more thing, if 12 to 3 (or 2) is not a consensus, then I do not know what is. ] ] 19:08, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: There was a pretty strong concensus against ] too. But yet the earth still revolves and still remains blighted with ] ] 20:34, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::We told her/him that ''Islamofascism'' is not taught in any university. We told her/him that it is not used by any academy or institutional organization. She/He agrees that is is used mainly in blogs(more blogs accusing Bush being a fascist than Islam being fascist). Tell us ]. If Islam's ever been fascist/bad/evil/satanas, then why only today we try to use the term Islamofascism? We explained to her/him that Syria got nothing to do with political Islam, as well as Hizbollah is not governing any country. We joked a bit about her/his claims about Communist China (next time we will may be dealing with an example of Cuba, and the list is long). We tried very hard to forgive her/his accusations that we all are POV pushers. We managed to avoid accusing her/him of being a sockpuppet (I don't care if this is right or wrong). But trying to beat us with an argument that 12/4 or 12/11 is no consensus is a fascist move itself! I decide this is over from my side. ] 19:29, May 11, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| :Just for the record, I would also dispute (vehemently) that it is an epithet. If you claim 12/4 consensus you guys are dreaming, you've been so combative that a lot of people left this article until it quiets down (me included). That in no way means I agree. Go look through the archived talk if you want. ] | |||
| ::I think if anyone has been combative it's Mr Kabong and Mr. Scion. Here are a selection of my favorite quotes: | |||
| ::: ... My so-called "changes" were the reversion of '''losers like you''' GUTTING THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE ''elkabong'' ... And all to placate '''a swarm of POV-pushers''' who were angry that they lost a VfD vote ''Kainthescion'' ... The old page actually had valuable information on it, while the vandalized one that's been locked in by '''an Admin on a power trip''' is almost worse than useless. ''KaintheScion'' ... '''You're certifiably bonkers''' if that's your justification for claiming the term doesn't exist. ''KaintheScion'' ... And then ''' a bunch of POV pushers show up going "hate speech, hate speech."''' This looks either like an LGF or Indymedia board now. The fact that a user named "Fayssal" is trying to hide this by signing as "Svest" is just icing on the cake. ''Kainthescion '' ... '''I'm no friend of yours, Fayssal, so knock that nonsense off, you POV-pushing jerk.''' ''elkabong '' ... Just not a '''gutted-to-uselessness-by-POV-pushing-morons''' one. ''KaintheScion'' ... If you can find me ONE communist nation that actually has the word "Communist" in their title, I'll concede your point. Otherwise I'll remain of the opinion that '''you're a flaming moron.''' ''ElKabong'' | |||
| ::I'm beginning to ''strongly'' suspect that EK and KtS are actually the same person. Judging from their language they were at least born in the same trailer park. And I find it fascinating that their erudite contributions to WP both began on May 6 of this year. --] 01:21, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::* Somewhere along the line I accused one of them of writing what the "other one" had written, and waited to see what would happen. (Don't ask me when, I've lost track -- it was probably on this page but who knows.) | |||
| :::* The response came back along roughly the following lines: "Having gone back and looked at the page, I have determined you are talking about a remark X made. I, however, am Y." Not, mind you, "What the *^%^%# are you talking about?" But rather, a guy eager to prove he was not the other guy, and barely able to contain his satisfaction in having trumped me by proving that I had gotten a name wrong. ] 03:06, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ===Rejected=== | |||
| <!--Please read the introduction to this section (Lists of Undisputed, Disputed etc) Thanks.--> | |||
| Information that one or more editors would insist on removing: | |||
| * The Orwell quote about "fascism": this is purely prejudicial POV and has no relevance to the article. | |||
| :First, it's a quotation from a well-known and respected writer; to claim that it's PoV is irrelevant — read Misplaced Pages policy. Secondly, to what is it prejudicial? If you actually mean "prejudiced", what is your justification for claiming that Orwell prejudged the matter rather than examining the evidence and then reasoning from it? Thirdly, how can a statement about the use of the term "fascism" be irrelevant to an article on a use of the term "fascism"? ] (] 21:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::* The Orwell quote properly belongs in a discussion on the term ], not in an article on the term ]. Likewise, the quote on Islamofascism re: Michael Medved properly belongs in THIS article and not in an article on the term Fascist as an epithet. Speaking of which, I'm going to correct that right now. ] | |||
| ::Are you saying that "Islamofascism" isn't a use of the tem "fascism"? Presumambly not; therefore how can the Orwell quotation not be relevant here? There's no rule that says that no passage may be quoted in more than one article. ] (] 21:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| * relevance of contacts or communications between fascists/nazis and various Moslems. | |||
| :This has been consistently removed from the article by a number of editors. | |||
| :: Change that to "This has been consistently removed from the article by a number of editors who are uncomfortable with contacts or communications between fascists/nazis and various Moslems." ] 03:05, 12 May 2005 (UTC)] | |||
| This is, of course, nonsense, and offends against ]. ] (] 20:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Unfortunately, it's also 100% accurate, you just don't like being exposed for what you are. ] | |||
| ::: Sadly I have to agree with ElKabong on this one. Let's see what ] has to say on the connection between Nazi's and Islamists.: ] 04:07, 13 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::'' "To the ]: The ] movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in ], against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the''' natural alliance that exists between ( Nazi )Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world.''' In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous ] my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory. | |||
| :Signed: ] S.S. ]" '' | |||
| * information that tries to provide a justification or rationale for the term or ... | |||
| **Question, to whoever posted the letter from Himmler, can you show me a source (or two) of where it was published. Thanks. ] ] 04:10, 13 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ] meets with ] (1941)]] | |||
| ] ] 06:40, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ***Zach, whatever it was said about the ''Big Mufti'', He never was a legal representant of Palestinian people. Please read this: | |||
| ::''When the local electoral college of pious Muslims voted for a moderate and learned leader and placed at the bottom of their list Hajj Amin al-Husseini, a young man in his twenties, given to fanaticism and hatred of the Jews, the Governor was initially content and confirmed the appointment. However, at this point the Hajj’s powerful family, backed by right-wing extremists, launched a fierce campaign of denigration against the electoral college, accusing its members of treacherously conspiring with the Jews to appoint one of their own party. | |||
| ::''Sir Herbert, who was himself Jewish, sought the counsel of E. T. Richmond, who acted as adviser on Muslim Affairs, and who was an extreme anti-Zionist. Richmond persuaded Sheikh Hisam al-Din, the man who had already been confirmed in the post, to stand down. He then convinced Samuel that the best way to restore order was to concede to the agitators by letting the Hajj become Grand Mufti. This was in spite of the fact that the Hajj had already been imprisoned by the British in 1920 for his role in fomenting vicious anti-Jewish riots. | |||
| ::''The British themselves were thus responsible for turning an electoral process upside-down in order to install an extremist Palestinian leader. This abuse of power would have fateful consequences not only for the future of Israel but also for ordinary Palestinians who were now subjected to a leader they had not chosen but for whose ill-judged actions they would, in the years to come, repeatedly be held responsible...'' -richard webster, ], ],]. | |||
| ::On the other hand, do we think that Arabs would have believed in the Nazis' agenda? I know that Arabs believe that Nazis were Anti-semitic and Arabs consider themselves Semetic people! Cheers and respect - - ] 09:07, May 13, 2005 (UTC) <sup> ] | |||
| :::I seriously doubt that any Arabs used any form of the term "anti-Semitism" to refer to the Nazi hatred of Jews. But what term did they use, I wonder? --]] 04:14, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The ''term'' they use is that Hitler is a criminal. There are reasons why Sephardic Jews, Arab Christians and Muslims don't use the term ''Anti-semitism''. First, it is because the term is zionist; they would say that Hitler was anti-semitic as opposite to be Aryan. This explains why most Arabs have believed that Hitler makes no difference between Jews and Arabs. Second, for Arab muslims, they don't use it because they believe Islam is a multi-racial belief and not only dedicated for a selected group of people. | |||
| ::::::**The term "anti-semitism" is ZIONIST? That's insane. A term coined by a hater of Jews to describe the hatred of Jews is Zionist? --]] 17:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::***Jpgordon, it is not a term coined by a hater of Jews. It is a term coined by ], with all my respect to his work. Cheers and respect from ] 18:01, May 14, 2005 (UTC) <sup> ] </sup> | |||
| ::::::****I suggest then that you go edit the ] article to reflect this; there, it says ''Wilhelm Marr coined the German word Antisemitismus in 1879''. You'll get some interesting debate there. I do agree, of course, that Hitler in the long run made no distinction between Jews and Arabs. I don't quite understand the relevance of the rest of your answer to my question. --]] 19:14, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*****Jpgordon, if I read this ], than I'd have nothing to edit there. Everything is correct. Regarding the rest of my answer, all I was trying to say is that combatting Hitler was the task of Arabs as well. And when I said ''I know that Arabs believe that Nazis were Anti-semitic and Arabs consider themselves Semetic people'' above, I meant just the same. Cheers and respect ] 19:33, May 14, 2005 (UTC) <sup> ] </sup> | |||
| :::::In Morocco, Jews were involved, still they are, in political life: | |||
| :::::*''The Moroccan Jews in Israel are one of the most influential of any immigrant group in Israel's political life. Moroccan Jews were always part of Moroccan political life and this tendency was transferred to their life in Israel.'' (source: www.sephardicstudies.org ). How come than Arab Muslims there would support Nazis against their compatriots?! | |||
| :::::Some Arab countries were invloved with the Allies against Nazi Germany: | |||
| :::::*Moroccan soldiers (known as Goums) as well as Algerians and Tunisians under the French commandment . War veterans in those countries are still getting pensions paid from France and not Germany. | |||
| :::::*''Of particular importance are Hitler's draft of the Munich agreement, containing his notations as well as Neville Chamberlain's; the first message alerting armed forces of the attack on Pearl Harbor; Patton's letter to the Sultan of Morocco announcing the American landings and threatening destruction; Montgomery's address to the troops before El Alamein; Patton's annotated map for the invasion of Sicily; the complete plans for the D-Day invasion in Normandy; and MacArthur's draft of the Japanese surrender terms.'' (Source: Museum of WWII ) | |||
| :::::*The headquarters of the North-African Allied Forced (under the commandment of D.Eisenhower) was in Algiers at the formely known St. George Hotel. | |||
| :::::*Roosevelt, Churchill and De Gaule meeting to ask Germany, Italy and Japan to surrender in 1943 (Stalin was invited but couldn't participate) was held in Casablanca, Morocco and not in the White House as many believe (due to the Spanish translation of the word or due to the lack of knowledge) , . | |||
| :::::*Arabs believe that Hitler would have done the same with them, as he did to Jews. | |||
| :::::Unfortunaltly, some people only emphasize on disputed claims and lack deep knowledge of the history of relationships between Muslims and Jews. Where in this planet Jews have lived in peace if not where Sephardics have lived? Jews were persecuted from Europe and were welcomed in Muslim North Africa. Jews have lived in Yemen and Iraq for 2 milleniums in peace. Some WPians indeed claim there is only ''Islamofascim'' and never has been any other belief's fascism! I have a big question for these people: Medieval Europe persecuted (including Jews and Muslims, Hebrews and Arabs) and burned people alive (christians and many others) and concentrated all religious, societal and political matters under the Church (medieval Spain, France and Italy, etc...). How come you vote with no single reason against the existance of other articles. I am here to defend common sense and good faith, not to defend any belief as myself I am not believing in any religion or race. Therefore, if we apply the same logic, than the comment of Toropov below would make sense. What about this , this , this , this , etc... We have to apply a single standard if we truly are Wikipedians. If there are facts, there are and if there are none, there are none. | |||
| :::::At the end, I invite anyone concerned in this discussion of ''rejected'' section, to read this link . Cheers and respect from ] 17:26, May 14, 2005 (UTC) ] | |||
| ::::::Your summary of 2,000 years of Jewish-Arab relations is highly one-sided; it ignores persistent persecutions in many places, including Yemen and Iraq. I'd get into it more, but that would be even further off-topic, and in any event there's no point, as this Talk: page isn't about ''writing'' a NPOV article, it's about ''suppressing'' one because a VfD failed. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 20:08, 16 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::* Noble words. Just confirming -- the principle '''is''' to reject one-sidedness on this page '''and elsewhere''', yes? | |||
| :::::::* So for instance, one wouldn't encourage editors to use the word "Islamofascism" in the body of an article that has nothing whatsoever to do with fascism, right? | |||
| :::::::* And one wouldn't cite as resources links to a disputed page like this one in order to instill POV to a page like ], right? ] 20:38, 16 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hold it! Whether editors like the pictures or not is immaterial. Whether editors like the Nazi contact references or not is immaterial. Whether Klonimus can prove the historicity of the meeting is immaterial. The material in question has been repeatedly removed ''''because it has nothing to do with Islam''' | |||
| ::::I could post as many pictures of a Pope with Hitler as I wanted. It still wouldn't mean the discussion about Popes and Nazis iwas germane to an analysis of what Catholicism '''is'''. ] 09:19, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == My favorite Klonimus quote of all time == | |||
| ''K writes, above:'' | |||
| ::There was a pretty strong concensus against ] too. But yet the earth still revolves and still remains blighted with ] Klonimus 20:34, 14 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::* Klonimus has now convinced himself he is Galileo, and those of us who insist on the word ] actually, you know, meaning something consistent, are somehow cast as the ] circa 1600. | |||
| :::* Stay tuned for Klonimus convincing himself he is ], which I have a feeling is the follow-up to this particular mini-series. ] 13:58, 15 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::'''This was an inappropriate remark, and I apologize for making it, Klonimus.'''] 23:19, 15 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Yusuf, I'm going to make this very explict. Islamofascism is a term used to describe certain types of totaltarian Islamism felt by the terms originators '''to possses negative aspects similar to fascist political movements'''. The word was created by combing the prefix ''Islamo'' with fascism. This probably occured sometime after ] used the phrase "Islamic Fascism" which was then combined into "Islamofascism"; probably somewhere in the ]. | |||
| :::: English is a dynamic and growing language, so it is not surprising that as new concepts and ] enter the human experience, new words are created to describe them. Such words naturally do not have meanings consistant with their precident words, otherwise they wouldn't need to be invented. No one, not even myself, is claiming that the term describes a concept with a 1:1 relationship to ] or the economic theories of ] | |||
| :::: So stop atttacking your strawman by complaining about ] not being directly related to fascism. And instead focus on what concepts and idea's the word and its users are trying to express. ] 20:30, 15 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Klonimus, what is expressed above got nothing to do with what you defined on May 3rd ]! | |||
| ::::::* ''] Term used to describe totalitarian Islamism. (Survivied VfD)'' | |||
| ::::::* ''] Term used to describe actual muslim fascists. I.e Bosnian SS Units, Grand Mufti, etc. ] 05:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)'' | |||
| ::::::Can you try to make that clear to us? Cheers and respect ] 23:01, May 15, 2005 (UTC) <sup> ] | |||
| ::::::: I'm going to assume good faith, and that you arent trolling me. ] == word used to describe totalitarian Islamism. ] Term used to describe fascists who are also muslim . Different words to describe different Idea's. ] 06:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::"Such words ... do not have meanings consistant with their precident words" Sounds like we're in complete agreement. Surely you won't object if we make this explicit in the article? In other words, that we inform the reader that "Islamofascism" does not have anything to do with either Islam or fascism. Rather it speaks more to the world view of the people who invented the term. --] 21:46, 15 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Of course I object, Don't twist my words to suit your purposes. Islamofascism definition has something to do with Islamism and fascism, its used to describe '''some types of islamist political movements that are thought to have elements in common with fascist political movments''' ] 06:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The key part of your definition (at least to me) is this "that are ''thought to have'' elements". Thought by whom? Obviously not by the supposed "islamofascists" themselves but by a small clique of mostly right-wing, US-based bloggers, a couple of hyperventilating paid-to-be-provocative columnists and perhaps one widely-reviled academic. In other words, it is just a political epithet. Not a particularly important one, at that. --] 13:26, 16 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: Well that's what the article said or was converging to say before all the edit waring started: '''This is a term used in the ], and when people in the blogosphere use this term, this is what they are trying to say.''' Somehow that all got side tracked to the question of "Is Islamofascism related to a very narrow academic definition of fascism" and a whole lot of people substituted reverting for constructive editing. Hence the current impasse. ] 05:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: ] has also used the term Islamofascism several times. And ] is only hated in the world of ], since he has exposed it for being quagmire of ], ], and ]. Once you leave ], no one in academia hates him and many respect him. | |||
| ::::::::: Going a little bit beyond all that, the idea of islamofascism exisiting as a distinct concept, is quite common in US political class and will very soon be very common in the rest of the world (I.e ], ], and ]). | |||
| ::::::::: And here are some citations from Academia. So ] is gaining traction. This is just a quick peek from using the very incomplete google scholar. | |||
| :::::::::* "Religious Fundamentalism and Political Extremism" L Weinberg, A Pedahzur. Nova Religio 2004 8:2, 106-109 | |||
| :::::::::* "The West and Its Antagonists: Culture, Globalization, and the War on Terrorism" C. Dale Walton. Comparative Strategy 2004 23:3, 303 -312 | |||
| :::::::::* "Civilisation as Paradigm: An Inquiry into the Hermeneutics of Conflict" M D Gismondi. Geopolitics 2004 9:2, 402 - 425 | |||
| ::::::::::Citations are not meaningful without seeing the context. For example, you could also cite Juan Cole, but the only reason he mentions the word is to point out that it's an example of bigoted misuse of the language by people who know nothing about fascism and nothing about Islam. You claim that it is "common in US political class". I'm not sure what you mean by "US political class" but I have yet to hear it from a single politician. And yes Victor Hanson also thinks the war in Iraq was a wonderful idea and a rip roaring success. Lovely. As to whether the word will "soon by very common in the rest of the world" that's irrelevant to WP. Nice that you have a crystal ball, but it's not something you can base an article on. --] 11:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Wrong. --] 22:04, May 15, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What's wrong?]<sup><small><font color="#FF8C00">]</font></small></sup> 23:04, 15 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What is Wrong thing, Kenyon? ''Sounds like we're in complete agreement'' or the opposite? ] 23:05, May 15, 2005 (UTC) <sup> ] </sup> | |||
| ::::::::FayssalF, at some point this sort of feigned ignorance is going to annoy people. ] 06:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The part that's wrong is ''"Islamofascism" has nothing to do with either Islam or fascism.'' That's obvious. But this whole discussion is pointless, I probably wouldn't come to Misplaced Pages to find out about Islamofascism anyway. Misplaced Pages is most excellent for its wealth of real, concrete information. Good luck with this mess. Unwatching. --] 21:26, May 16, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Votes for Redirecting to ]== | |||
| Sectioned this off for a discussion on making this a redirect to ]. From existing comments, those that accept this article should exist, seem to believe in redirecting it. Anyone disagree? ] 13:17, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| === Redirect This === | |||
| ] actually documents usage of the term, given the abscence of content, this should redirect there. ] 15:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| === The articles ] and ] === | |||
| Both of these articles are about the same kind of political epithet. Therefore, I propose that either this article be redirected to ] or ] be redirected to this article. ] 00:06, 23 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Sounds fine to me although I would suggest that Islamofascism should redirect to Islamic fascism, since it is a neologism whereas Islamic Fascism is at least two recognizable words.. --] 01:43, 23 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Absolutely. One way or another, combine them. --] 01:47, 23 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| *I agree with Lee Hunter's reasoning and proposal. ] (] 08:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| *: ] agrees. (personal attack removed) ] (] 15:57, 23 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Read your edit again, Mel Etitis. ElKabong agreed, contingent on you and your fellows' not making the Islamic Fascism page an incomplete mockery of its former self like you did to this page. Your making that edit shows quite clearly that you are not interested in a consensus but rather pushing a POV. | |||
| :::The above comment was made by El Kabong, he has made the same reverts El Kabong has and has commented upon the same articles.]<sup><small><font color="#FF8C00">]</font></small></sup> 00:19, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| <table style="background-color: azure; border:1px dotted #000000;padding:2px;margin:2px;width:100%"> | |||
| <tr><td> | |||
| == See: ] == | |||
| '''This boxed section duplicates discussion on ], please place future comments re: these sections there''' ] 17:51, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| === Pigs in flight === | |||
| Redirected from ]. | |||
| '''Pigs in flight''' is a phenomenon cited by ] It is therefore a valid topic for an article in WP. | |||
| Hitchens was recently quoted in the ''Oceania Times'' as acknowleding that neither "pigs" nor "flight," in their technical "you, know, old-style-dictionary meanings," accurately described the phenomenon he had in mind, but insisted that "there is this thing, and I wasn't sure what to call it, and I realized I kind of liked calling it ''pigs in flight.''" | |||
| According to Hitchens, pigs in flight refers to the practice of drunken men throwing dwarves as tavern entertainment. "The activity itself has certainly become one of our cultural reference points," he insisted in a recent interview, "and the plain fact is that since I started using the term ''pigs in flight'' to describe dwarf-tossing, other people have laughed a couple of times, clearly an indication of wide acceptance of the term." | |||
| ====A controversial epithet==== | |||
| Opponents of the term ''pigs in flight'' (or its associated epithet ''pigfly'') apparently are hung up on words actually carrying discernable meanings, though this approach has been designated as ] in certain sections of Oceania. Some even claim the terms in question are offensive, but those individuals are under investigation. | |||
| While not the main subject of the article, that being the derogatory term, I believe actual occurrences of a ] of ] and ] (as an actual ideology) deserve a mention. I should note similarly the article ] was solely about the derogatory term but even that mentioned past and present actual "ecofascist" movements, although it has become about genuine ecofascism ideology as the prominent topic after the tragic Christchurch shootings. | |||
| An anonymous fan of Hitchens offered this response from the ]: "Look, Hitchens said it. And he didn't just, like, ''say'' it. He said it more than once. That's what people aren't considering in their brains. And you know what? He also ''wrote'' about it. Hitchens did, I mean, with like a computer and everything. Again, he did this more than once. Plus a pig is a mammal. Are you saying a dwarf isn't a mammal? And plus, like, when you fly, you leave the ground, right? Are you saying someone who throws a dwarf doesn't make that dwarf leave the ground? Christopher Hitchens says that's flying, so that's what it is." | |||
| Anyway some examples of this trend are the ] (a Egyptian corporativist party inspired by the government of ] which wanted to implement Islamic values as part of its ideology) and the ] (Libyan branch of the ], albiet unsuccessful). --] (]) 17:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| That the term is regarded by certain Muslims and other unpersons as not only offensive and inaccurate, but self-contradictory, is a point with which we need not concern ourselves here. | |||
| == This article needs a rewrite == | |||
| '''History had already been rewritten, but fragments of the literature of the past survived here and there, imperfectly censored, and so long as one retained one's knowledge of Oldspeak it was possible to read them. In the future such fragments, even if they chanced to survive, would be unintelligible and untranslatable. It was impossible to translate any passage of Oldspeak into Newspeak unless it either referred to some technical process or some very simple everyday action, or was already orthodox(goodthinkful would be the Newspeak expression) in tendency.''' -- ], The Principles of ] | |||
| There's no mention of either Islamist critiques of facism or the influence of Juliues Evola's Revolt Against the Modern World on Islamism. Why not quote Islamists themselves? This article seems very Eurocentric, as if Islamists have never written about facism before (Hassan Al Banna mentions facism in his magnus opus Peace in Islam https://islamicbulletin.org/en/ebooks/resources/peace_in_islam.pdf ). | |||
| ====Disagreement==== | |||
| ] left a personal attack (now removed; see ]), the gist of which was that he disagrees with the aptness of the above analogy. ] (] 15:56, 23 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| (It's worth pointing out that ''anyone'' is at liberty to remove personal attacks. You should be sure that that's all that you're doing, so try to leave the actual substance of the message intact (read the material linked to above). Personal attacks aren't permitted, and they're the ''only'' reason that editors are permitted to interfere with another editor's comments on a Talk page (except for archiving). ] (] 17:07, 23 May 2005 (UTC)) | |||
| "Nazism came to power in Germany, Fascism in Italy and both Hitler and Mussolini began to force their people to conform to what they thought; unity, order, development and power. Certainly, this system led the two countries to stability and a vital international role. This cultivated much hope, reawakened aspiration and united the whole country under one leader. Then what happened? It became apparent that these seemingly powerful systems were a real disaster. The inspiration and aspirations of the people were shattered and the system of democracy did not lead to the empowerment of the people but to the establishment of chosen tyrants. Eventually after a deadly war in which innumerable men women and children died, these regimes collapsed" | |||
| ::So, if I understand the point of the analogy, if a word or phrase is deemed wrong, inflammitory, or offensive, (forget, for now, who is doing the deeming) it should not be listed as it is Orwellian Newspeak? ], I have never understood that argument. As if denial of the word itself will somehow erase the thoughts and idology that espouse it. Eliminating documentation from here will not stop the neo-cons, politicans and the American media from using the term, and will eliminate a forum for an objective critique of it. ] 19:17, 23 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Here's what Khomeini had to say: | |||
| :::Hi there, Anonymous. Just want to be sure I understand your position. | |||
| https://www.nytimes.com/1979/10/07/archives/an-interview-with-khomeini.html | |||
| ;;;There are hundreds, probably thousands, of commentators in the Arab world who make a habit of referring vaguely, and ominously, to a '''Global Zionist Conspiracy''' to control the media. | |||
| '''FALLACI:''' Love or fanaticism, Imam? It seems to me that this is fanaticism, and of the most dangerous kind. I mean, fascist fanaticism. In fact, there are many who see a fascist threat in Iran today, and who even maintain that fascism is already being consolidated in Iran. | |||
| :::Me personally, I think that's sloppy thinking, and I think there's no evidence of such a conspiracy. That means, to my way of thinking, that the verbal shorthand these commentators use describes a '''condition contrary to fact.''' (By the way: that's what I'm taking exception to primarily about ''Islamofascism'' and its cousins -- by "Islam" proponents of this phrase do not actually mean "the doctrines of the Qur'an," and by "fascism" they do not actually mean "the system of corporatism practiced by Musollini and Hitler." They mean, as another editor so eloquently put it, something closer to "Yo mama she fat." As an insult, it's offensive, of course, but let's table that for the moment.) | |||
| '''KHOMEINI:''' No, it is neither fascism nor fanaticism. I repeat, they yell like this because they love me, and they love me because they feel that I care for them, that I act for their good. That is, to apply the Commandments of Islam. Islam is justice. Dictatorship is the greatest sin in the religion of Islam. Fascism and Islamism are absolutely incompatible. Fascism arises in the West, not among people of Islamic culture. | |||
| :::I'm not saying that the terminology "Global Zionist Conspiracy" doesn't exist, or that people should be forbidden from maintaining that there's a global Zionist conspiracy, even though I disagree with that assertion. I'm saying you shouldn't write (allegedly factual) encyclopedia articles about delusional partisan beliefs, and that doing so smacks of phrases like "Wise and Fearless Leader". No matter how much someone may like or agree with that phrase, "Wise and Fearless Leader," I hope you would conclude that it is inappropriate as a title for an article about George W. Bush. | |||
| '''FALLACI:''' Perhaps we don't understand each other or the meaning of the word fascism, Imam. By fascism I mean a popular phenomenon, the kind we had in Italy when the crowds cheered Mussolini, as here they cheer you, and they obeyed him as they obey you now. | |||
| :::But under your reasoning, we should in fact have an entry for '''Global Zionist Conspiracy,''' right? Because people somewhere are in fact using the term? ] 20:16, 23 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| '''KHOMEINI:''' No. Because our masses are Moslems, educated by the clergy — that is, by men who preach spirituality and goodness. Fascism would be possible here only if the Shah were to return or if Communism were to take over. Yes, what you say could happen only if Communism would win and wipe us out. Cheering, for me, means to love freedom and democracy. | |||
| :::: '''Hey, you got it!''' '''Exactly!''' The fact that people allege that ] exists, propagandize about it, and commit violent acts based on the idea means that the use must in fact be documented or else we are engaing in a Salinist sanitation of history. If we remove all refrence to ] from our history because it is a fraud, in a misguided attempt to "fight" anti-semitisim and wrong-headedness, we willingly blind ourselves to an odious philosophy— and philosophies like that only grow well in the dark ] 13:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::: PS-- you inspired me to add an entry for ] ] 13:07, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 13:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :It’s really an article about the term “islamofascism”, not an article about the relationships between Islam, islamism, and fascism. ] (]) 03:05, 4 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This, then, 66.94.94.154, would be a point on which you and I disagree. There are a lot of people who feel as you do. I certainly respect your point of view. I do have some questions for you, though. | |||
| :@] There is no shortage of Islamists such as Khomeini denouncing/dismissing Fascism as unIslamic, inferior to Islam, etc. just as capitalism, liberalism, socialism, and any other ideology is inferior to the all-encompassing and perfect system of Islam. Does this mean there are no connections between Islamism and fascism? no such thing as Islamofascism? ] (]) 01:38, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Perhaps. I just thought it was relevant to document how Islamist have historically understood fascism. ] (]) 17:26, 30 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Timothy Winter and Evola == | |||
| ::::* In our new article on the ], we are going to make clear to the reader that the contention that Jews are conspiring to control world media outlets is a ''fraudulent'' one, yes, 66.94.94.154? | |||
| I will delete the part on Evola which mentions that he influenced Timothy Winter, because Winter but I will add it to both their pages respectively because it is important to point out. ] (]) 08:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* You mentioned ], 66.94.94.154. That article, too, we will, as good editors, compose in such a way as to make it clear to the reader that the document is ''fraudulent,'' yes? | |||
| == Paul Gottfried == | |||
| ::::* With me so far, 66.94.94.154? Now -- how about ]? Or its cousin, ]-- sorry, ]. Are we going to point out cearly and without ambiguity that that's a fantasy, too? | |||
| Is Paul Gottfried a reliable source in a conceptual discussion about fascism? I have not read the original source, but since he has direct ties to far-right orgs, it seems like he has a dog in the fight. Given the stigma of the label, it clearly is in his interest to define fascism in a manner that doesn't apply to his political activities. Also, if his claim is indeed that fascism only existed in Mussolini's Italy, why should he be included in any discussion about varieties of fascism? ] (]) 23:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* Does it matter, 66.94.94.154, that ''actual'' fascists in the Mideast are the sworn ''enemies'' of Islamist parties? | |||
| == Orwell and Hitchens == | |||
| ::::* Supposing your viewpoint on this article's status to be the majority (and I think it is), doesn't the fact that fascists and Islamists oppose each other '''in the real world''' merit reference in, say, paragraph one, sentence one -- where similar disclaimers about the authenticity of ] appear in, for instance, ''The Columbia Encyclopedia''? Or does ''fascist'' mean whatever neocons want it to mean at any given moment, even if their meaning conflicts with reality? | |||
| The Orwell quote should be removed as it pertains to a general discussion about fascism. | |||
| ::::* The big problem hereabouts, 66.94.94.154, has been certain people insisting that, because Hitchens has defined a movement, it therefore exists in, you know, the real world. On Hitchens' terms, and more or less as he described it. If he said Muslims were inherently Marxist, would that be "controversial" or "disputed by those who oppose the term"? Or would it be, um, horse-puckey? If the neocons like it, though ... it's apparently a trend to watch. | |||
| Hitchens was not a scholar? He did not publish in peer reviewed journals and did not acquire doctoral qualifications. Journalist, author or critic would be a more accurate designation. ] (]) 11:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::* Final questions for you, 66.94.94.154: If I were to declare in some blog that ] was in fact the result of an actual meeting of power-hungry Jews (it wasn't), would you thereupon revise the opening of the WP articlee on ] article to accommodate my (extremist, delusional) viewpoint? Would you describe the finding that the Protocols were composed by the Russian secret police as "controversial"? Would facts matter in that article? Do they matter in this one? ] 13:45, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Unreliable stories on the Muslim Brotherhood == | |||
| You mix a '''lot''' of different arguments into this, the two primary ones being: | |||
| :# the validity of the article's existance | |||
| :# the factual basis for the article's content | |||
| :# the article is not NPOV | |||
| Al Arabiya news is a Saudi backed news channel. The Saudi government is anti Muslim Brotherhood (since MB is backed by Qatar) and should not be trusted as a reliable source - especially by Tony Duheaume - a man with hardly any scholarly backing. That article sites 0 sources that | |||
| 1) There '''is''' a consensus here, both versions survived VfD: The article(s) should exist. | |||
| 2) AFAIK there is no current factual distpue on the current content of either. In fact the ] article makes most of the points you're complaining about: ie. it's a neocon neologisim that has nothing to do with 1930s Italian politics or the ideologies that derived from them. | |||
| 3) You have a point about '''prior''' versions of the article but I do not believe it applies to the current form. Arguing against the article based on past bias or potential future bias is a good way to shut down the whole wikipedia. ] 15:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| . Banna personally ordered a translation of Mein Kampf (which is nowhere on ] article) | |||
| : With respect, I disagree. Current opening paragraph states: | |||
| . Banna had personal copies ''Der Sturmer'' (could Banna even read German?) | |||
| : ''Islamic fascism (also:Islamo-fascist) is a term adopted by journalist Christopher Hitchens intended to refer to a small number of Islamist extremists, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda. The term has gained wide currency in the United States, particularly among neo-conservatives. Since the term is both pejorative and coined by critics of militant Islamist groups, there are no self-identified Islamic fascists.'' | |||
| : The paragraph does not reference the following facts: | |||
| ::* ] is a political ideology combining state and corporate power, and embracing ]. (It's not merely totalitarianism -- Stalin was not a fascist leader.) | |||
| ::* There is today no Muslim state pursuing such an ideology. | |||
| ::* Islamists and fascists are both present in the contemporary Middle East, and they are bitter enemies. | |||
| The book I read on the Muslim Brotherhood is ''The Society of the Muslim Brothers'' by Richard P. Mitchell - who makes no mention of any of this. I tried looking in ''The Muslim Brotherhood and the West: A History of Enmity and Engagement'' but again there's no mention of any of that. At most it argues that the MB was funded by Nazis pre war but nothing like what Duheaume argued. | |||
| :: The fact is that people who try to make these points get shouted down whenever we try to introduce these facts '''into the opening sentences of the article''' where they belong -- this seems to me to be part of the problem here. (Please recall that Columbia and WP both make "fraudulent" an important part of the opening '''sentence''' of ].) | |||
| With regards to Hamed Abdel-Samad, he cites a statement by Banna () where Banna praises the praised the militarism of Mussolini. But he forgot to include the last section of his speech: (translated from the Arabic with google translate) | |||
| :: Better idea still: redirect to a page about neofascism in various religious movements, not just the one the neocons are frothing at the mouth about this week, and then apply a real-word standard to the poli-sci terms used there. ] 16:07, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| <blockquote>But know, my dear, that there is a huge gap between the goal that Islam wants to instill in its sons the military spirit to achieve, and the goal that European politicians and leaders like Mussolini and others want to instill in their nations this spirit. Islam intends by this that Muslims work to preserve the legacy of God that He has bequeathed to them and to guide the whole world to that which contains light and guidance. They do not work out of desire for this world or greed for power, nor do they subject those whom God makes victorious to various types of humiliation and severe torment. As for Europe, it calls for the military spirit in competition for colonization and preparation to eliminate weak peoples and in desire for economic gains and material ambitions. There is a great difference between a divine, humane goal in which the individual becomes a victim of the interest of the group and a private goal in which the strong tyrannizes the weak and the victor devours the vanquished, and in which the atrocities of Tripoli, Tunis , Syria , Algeria, Marrakesh and the Rif are represented. It is strange to see that these are the teachings of Islam and that Muslims are in a deep sleep about them.</blockquote>Also it was Salam Saadi, not Hamed Abdel-Samad, who said that "Hassan Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, said in a book in 1935 that Italian fascist and dictator Benito Mussolini was practicing one of the principles of Islam.". It's citation three in https://brill.com/view/journals/fasc/7/2/article-p241_241.xml?language=en#ref_FN000003 ] (]) 19:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Well, that is a lot of material to cram into the first sentance of an article. And I might note that the article (]) does make the latter two points. The first one is properly part of ]. I think (trying to believe the best of everyone) shouting down is due more to the fact that it is very hard to make a NPOV edit on something you are passionate about. Also, while your last point may be well-meaning, it will never work in an encyclopeda that documents real-world usage; (see ]) ] 16:23, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| : I took it out. If and when a reliable source is found, it can go back. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler == | |||
| ::Again -- ] is a '''fraudulent''' document. We are correct to say so up front. The notion that Islamists and fascists are on the same side (or even remotely compatible) is '''fraudulent,''' whether or not it suits Hitchens or any other ideological ax-grinder to say so. We should state as much in the opening sentence, or redirect to a discussion of neo-fascist movements in contemporary religious movements. ] 16:35, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| There needs to be some mention of the influence of Nazi German fascististic thought upon the Umma due to the influence that Hitler had on the ]. Richard Webster, who is generally sympathetic to Palestinians, blames the British for instilling both anti-semitism in Islamic thought as well as a fascist type response. He says all Abrahamic religions have components of fascism (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) because they want to make the entire world believers. (I don't agree with that, not in the present re Christianity, and Jews have never proselytized.) I also disagree about propaganda disappeared from Europe after WW2 (ha ha!) but I'm not the expert; he is. He is referenced as a source from the earliest versions of the article. A sentence of two that captures the relationship between Hitler's fascism and fascism in N Africa and other Arab nations via Amin should be mentioned (paraphrased) so as to include the impact of Nazi German fascist thought on Islam in the Middle East post-WW2: | |||
| ===Propose redirect=== | |||
| <blockquote>'Throughout WW2, Hajj Amin remained in touch with the German government, and in 1941, having fled... to Berlin, he held talks with Hitler... thanked him for the ‘unequivocal support’ he had shown for the Palestinians... Anti-semitic propaganda broadcast in Arabic from Berlin had a significant effect in Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia and in other Arab countries. | |||
| I have created an overview page ] and am proposing that this page be redirected to this larger and more detailed article. --] 14:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Although such propaganda disappeared from Europe ... in Egypt anti-semitism was taken up not only by Nasser, but also, in a particularly violent form, by Sayyid Qutb... of the Muslim Brotherhood whom Nasser executed and who... shaped the thinking of modern, militant Islam including bin Laden. In Qutb’s view, Jews, who had always rebelled against God, were inherently evil... | |||
| I agree. ] 15:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ...the destructive form which anti-semitism has now assumed within militant Islam... is not authentically Islamic; is western. ...dreams of world-domination which drive extreme Islamists have been there from the beginning. But such dreams are not unique to Islam; they are the common property of all three Abrahamic faiths. For, in that they look forward to a time when the entire world will bow down to the God they worship, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have always been...ideologies of world-domination."</blockquote> | |||
| '''Disagree:''' I might point out that by re-directing to an article called ] you are implicitly making the case for what seems to be the primariy objection to this article, i.e. you imply that what the American neocons refer to as ] is actually a ]/] political movement. It will also make it less clear about the usage of the term and its issues since any disclaimers, most importantly the fact that it is a derogitory epithet and not some global political movement, have to be buried within the body of a huge article-- which people searching for ]/] may not bother to read all the way through. IMHO, it is much more sensible having a short pithy article stating; "This is a slur, this is where it came from, this is how it is used." ] 16:09, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I can try, but this is not something I know much about. ] (]) 10:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, I'm saying ] means something specific, and (as far as I can tell) ] can mean a whole lot of things to a whole lot of different people. That seems more in line with what the neocons are saying, and with the level of precision to be found within their argument. I do agree, though that a two-sentence article explaining that ] is a made-up insult would be better than what we have now. ] 16:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC) | |||
| </td></tr></table> | |||
| :I think I'd agree with an inclusion on the Mufti and Hitler, but specifically on the academic discourse on the subject. The idea that Hitler "introduced" antisemitism to the Muslim world or helped invent 'radical Islam', as argued by , is not without controversy. This is mainly because it assumes that: | |||
| I think CBerlet is on the mark here. I think it will help (1) to get this out of the context of a ''particular'' religion and (2) to discuss the inappropriate use of epithets like this and (3) to discuss the several cases where adherents of various religions -- Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, possibly others -- have, at times, adopted ideologies that blend neo-fascism and religious sectarianism. Frankly, my personal view is that "Islamofascist" is the most abused of these terms, because most of the fascists in the Muslim world tend to be relatively secular, but there is a better chance of getting that clear in a more broadly contextualized article than in one like this, which is an almost guaranteed perpetual battleground. -- ] | ] 19:55, May 24, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :# Radical or antisemitic tendencies in Islam did not already exist before the Hitler-Mufti meeting | |||
| :# That there was an increase in, specifically 'radical Islamic', antisemitism post war, as opposed antisemitism by the anti-Islamist and socialist governments in Syria and Egypt. | |||
| :# That this increase could '''only''' be attributed to Nazi propaganda and not to other events post-war | |||
| :# That Nazi propaganda was widespread and taken at face value in the Arab world, and not challenged in any serious way, including on Islamic grounds | |||
| :# That most Arabs even had access to radios in the first place and could (and did) listen to Axis propaganda (Joel Beinin challenges the idea that Qutb was inspired by the Nazis, since evidence for his radicalism did not appear until at earliest 1948).<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Beinin |first=Joel |date=2010 |title=Review of Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World; From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/41308720 |journal=International Journal of Middle East Studies |volume=42 |issue=4 |pages=689–692 |issn=0020-7438}}</ref> | |||
| :# That the Nazi ideology was not contradictory; | |||
| :Regarding the Muslim Brotherhood, as Ulrike Freitag and Israel Gershoni put it: | |||
| :''"To our mind, the Muslim Brothers' position vis-a-vis Zionists and Jews had its own logic: The Muslim Brothers aggressively agitated against the Zionist project and took a leading pro-Palestinian role in Egypt and the Arab world between 1936 and 1939. They did not need to nurture their hatred of Zionism, and sometimes of Jews in general, with external sources. Actually, at the same time they developed a clear-cut anti-Nazi and anti-racialist position. There is no hard evidence in al-Banna's rhetoric, ideology or practices that demonstrates any sympathy, let alone collaboration, with the Nazi regime in Germany or its aggressive anti-Semitism. On the contrary, al-Banna and other ideologues and activists of the Muslim Brothers rejected and denounced Nazism on the grounds of its racism and totalitarianism. They considered it to be a new kind of Western imperialism, crueller and more oppressive than the old imperialism of Britain and France. Therefore, to accuse them of Nazi influences because of their support for the Palestinian national movement and its leader, the Mufti, and because of his later collaboration with the Nazis amounts to guilt by association"'' | |||
| :https://www.jstor.org/stable/41303595 | |||
| :As Mia Lee puts it: | |||
| :''"Both sets of authors claim that Arabs increasingly participated in operations against Jews during the German occupation. But they do so without showing significant corroborating evidence of this alleged increase in violence, thus creating ambiguity about the reasons behind the rise of anti-Semitism in the region. Moreover, while they emphasise Arabs’ welcome of the Germans, neither set of authors convincingly addresses the findings of numerous studies from scholars of the Middle East that document how Middle Eastern leaders in the interwar era were suspicious or antipathetic toward imperial powers".. "There is no new evidence that the Mufti commanded the support of any significant number of Arab Muslims either during his exile or afterward. Moreover, neither book satisfactorily demonstrates that the Mufti’s anti-Semitic position was shared by Islamic groups in the Middle East during the war"'' | |||
| :https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/26852336 | |||
| :Hitler was fascinated with Islam, but was also incredibly ignorant of even basic Islamic practices. For example, one of the ways the SS differentiated who was Jewish and who wasn't was by checking to see who was circumcised, and then killing them on sight. This was done completely ignorant to the fact Muslims also practice circumcision; the SS killed hundreds of Muslims Tatars before realizing their mistake.<ref>{{Citation |last=Motadel |first=David |title=Veiled Survivors: Jews, Roma and Muslims in the Years of the Holocaust |date=2015 |work=Rewriting German History: New Perspectives on Modern Germany |pages=288–305 |editor-last=Rüger |editor-first=Jan |url=https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137347794_16 |access-date=2024-10-09 |place=London |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan UK |language=en |doi=10.1057/9781137347794_16 |isbn=978-1-137-34779-4 |editor2-last=Wachsmann |editor2-first=Nikolaus}}</ref> | |||
| :The extent to which radical Islam ''needed'' Nazism to proliferate, that it couldn't possibly spread without the Nazis for other reasons, is not, to put it lightly, an idea without some skeptics. ] (]) 01:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 01:11, 9 October 2024
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Archive notes
Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page. Previous discussions:
- Meeting of Islamists and fascists during WWII
- Wahhabism
- Judgemental language
- Talk:Islamofascism/Archive01#Aryan Nation material
- SS photo
- Definition of fascism
- Proposed merger with Fascist (epithet)
- how did this page get reduced to a collection if quotes?
- Veiled censorship
- Stop re-directing this article with neo-fascism or other non-sense
- Blogs as sources
- Please Stop Edit War!
- Juan Cole and the 'F' word
Mentioning Islamic fascism as an actual phenomenon
While not the main subject of the article, that being the derogatory term, I believe actual occurrences of a ideological syncretism of Political Islam and Fascism (as an actual ideology) deserve a mention. I should note similarly the article Ecofascism was solely about the derogatory term but even that mentioned past and present actual "ecofascist" movements, although it has become about genuine ecofascism ideology as the prominent topic after the tragic Christchurch shootings.
Anyway some examples of this trend are the Young Egypt Party (a Egyptian corporativist party inspired by the government of Fascist Italy which wanted to implement Islamic values as part of its ideology) and the Muslim Association of the Lictor (Libyan branch of the Italian Fascist Party, albiet unsuccessful). --PanNostraticism (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
This article needs a rewrite
There's no mention of either Islamist critiques of facism or the influence of Juliues Evola's Revolt Against the Modern World on Islamism. Why not quote Islamists themselves? This article seems very Eurocentric, as if Islamists have never written about facism before (Hassan Al Banna mentions facism in his magnus opus Peace in Islam https://islamicbulletin.org/en/ebooks/resources/peace_in_islam.pdf ).
"Nazism came to power in Germany, Fascism in Italy and both Hitler and Mussolini began to force their people to conform to what they thought; unity, order, development and power. Certainly, this system led the two countries to stability and a vital international role. This cultivated much hope, reawakened aspiration and united the whole country under one leader. Then what happened? It became apparent that these seemingly powerful systems were a real disaster. The inspiration and aspirations of the people were shattered and the system of democracy did not lead to the empowerment of the people but to the establishment of chosen tyrants. Eventually after a deadly war in which innumerable men women and children died, these regimes collapsed"
Here's what Khomeini had to say:
https://www.nytimes.com/1979/10/07/archives/an-interview-with-khomeini.html
FALLACI: Love or fanaticism, Imam? It seems to me that this is fanaticism, and of the most dangerous kind. I mean, fascist fanaticism. In fact, there are many who see a fascist threat in Iran today, and who even maintain that fascism is already being consolidated in Iran.
KHOMEINI: No, it is neither fascism nor fanaticism. I repeat, they yell like this because they love me, and they love me because they feel that I care for them, that I act for their good. That is, to apply the Commandments of Islam. Islam is justice. Dictatorship is the greatest sin in the religion of Islam. Fascism and Islamism are absolutely incompatible. Fascism arises in the West, not among people of Islamic culture.
FALLACI: Perhaps we don't understand each other or the meaning of the word fascism, Imam. By fascism I mean a popular phenomenon, the kind we had in Italy when the crowds cheered Mussolini, as here they cheer you, and they obeyed him as they obey you now.
KHOMEINI: No. Because our masses are Moslems, educated by the clergy — that is, by men who preach spirituality and goodness. Fascism would be possible here only if the Shah were to return or if Communism were to take over. Yes, what you say could happen only if Communism would win and wipe us out. Cheering, for me, means to love freedom and democracy.
Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 13:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- It’s really an article about the term “islamofascism”, not an article about the relationships between Islam, islamism, and fascism. Prezbo (talk) 03:05, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) There is no shortage of Islamists such as Khomeini denouncing/dismissing Fascism as unIslamic, inferior to Islam, etc. just as capitalism, liberalism, socialism, and any other ideology is inferior to the all-encompassing and perfect system of Islam. Does this mean there are no connections between Islamism and fascism? no such thing as Islamofascism? Louis P. Boog (talk) 01:38, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps. I just thought it was relevant to document how Islamist have historically understood fascism. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 17:26, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Timothy Winter and Evola
I will delete the part on Evola which mentions that he influenced Timothy Winter, because Winter but I will add it to both their pages respectively because it is important to point out. StrongALPHA (talk) 08:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Paul Gottfried
Is Paul Gottfried a reliable source in a conceptual discussion about fascism? I have not read the original source, but since he has direct ties to far-right orgs, it seems like he has a dog in the fight. Given the stigma of the label, it clearly is in his interest to define fascism in a manner that doesn't apply to his political activities. Also, if his claim is indeed that fascism only existed in Mussolini's Italy, why should he be included in any discussion about varieties of fascism? 37.96.36.84 (talk) 23:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Orwell and Hitchens
The Orwell quote should be removed as it pertains to a general discussion about fascism.
Hitchens was not a scholar? He did not publish in peer reviewed journals and did not acquire doctoral qualifications. Journalist, author or critic would be a more accurate designation. 37.96.55.252 (talk) 11:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Unreliable stories on the Muslim Brotherhood
Al Arabiya news is a Saudi backed news channel. The Saudi government is anti Muslim Brotherhood (since MB is backed by Qatar) and should not be trusted as a reliable source - especially this article by Tony Duheaume - a man with hardly any scholarly backing. That article sites 0 sources that
. Banna personally ordered a translation of Mein Kampf (which is nowhere on Mein Kampf in Arabic article)
. Banna had personal copies Der Sturmer (could Banna even read German?)
The book I read on the Muslim Brotherhood is The Society of the Muslim Brothers by Richard P. Mitchell - who makes no mention of any of this. I tried looking in The Muslim Brotherhood and the West: A History of Enmity and Engagement but again there's no mention of any of that. At most it argues that the MB was funded by Nazis pre war but nothing like what Duheaume argued.
With regards to Hamed Abdel-Samad, he cites a statement by Banna (archived in ikhanwiki) where Banna praises the praised the militarism of Mussolini. But he forgot to include the last section of his speech: (translated from the Arabic with google translate)
But know, my dear, that there is a huge gap between the goal that Islam wants to instill in its sons the military spirit to achieve, and the goal that European politicians and leaders like Mussolini and others want to instill in their nations this spirit. Islam intends by this that Muslims work to preserve the legacy of God that He has bequeathed to them and to guide the whole world to that which contains light and guidance. They do not work out of desire for this world or greed for power, nor do they subject those whom God makes victorious to various types of humiliation and severe torment. As for Europe, it calls for the military spirit in competition for colonization and preparation to eliminate weak peoples and in desire for economic gains and material ambitions. There is a great difference between a divine, humane goal in which the individual becomes a victim of the interest of the group and a private goal in which the strong tyrannizes the weak and the victor devours the vanquished, and in which the atrocities of Tripoli, Tunis , Syria , Algeria, Marrakesh and the Rif are represented. It is strange to see that these are the teachings of Islam and that Muslims are in a deep sleep about them.
Also it was Salam Saadi, not Hamed Abdel-Samad, who said that "Hassan Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, said in a book in 1935 that Italian fascist and dictator Benito Mussolini was practicing one of the principles of Islam.". It's citation three in https://brill.com/view/journals/fasc/7/2/article-p241_241.xml?language=en#ref_FN000003 Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 19:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- I took it out. If and when a reliable source is found, it can go back. Zero 03:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler
There needs to be some mention of the influence of Nazi German fascististic thought upon the Umma due to the influence that Hitler had on the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Richard Webster, who is generally sympathetic to Palestinians, blames the British for instilling both anti-semitism in Islamic thought as well as a fascist type response. He says all Abrahamic religions have components of fascism (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) because they want to make the entire world believers. (I don't agree with that, not in the present re Christianity, and Jews have never proselytized.) I also disagree about propaganda disappeared from Europe after WW2 (ha ha!) but I'm not the expert; he is. He is referenced as a source from the earliest versions of the article. A sentence of two that captures the relationship between Hitler's fascism and fascism in N Africa and other Arab nations via Amin should be mentioned (paraphrased) so as to include the impact of Nazi German fascist thought on Islam in the Middle East post-WW2:
'Throughout WW2, Hajj Amin remained in touch with the German government, and in 1941, having fled... to Berlin, he held talks with Hitler... thanked him for the ‘unequivocal support’ he had shown for the Palestinians... Anti-semitic propaganda broadcast in Arabic from Berlin had a significant effect in Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia and in other Arab countries.
Although such propaganda disappeared from Europe ... in Egypt anti-semitism was taken up not only by Nasser, but also, in a particularly violent form, by Sayyid Qutb... of the Muslim Brotherhood whom Nasser executed and who... shaped the thinking of modern, militant Islam including bin Laden. In Qutb’s view, Jews, who had always rebelled against God, were inherently evil...
...the destructive form which anti-semitism has now assumed within militant Islam... is not authentically Islamic; is western. ...dreams of world-domination which drive extreme Islamists have been there from the beginning. But such dreams are not unique to Islam; they are the common property of all three Abrahamic faiths. For, in that they look forward to a time when the entire world will bow down to the God they worship, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have always been...ideologies of world-domination."
I can try, but this is not something I know much about. FeralOink (talk) 10:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think I'd agree with an inclusion on the Mufti and Hitler, but specifically on the academic discourse on the subject. The idea that Hitler "introduced" antisemitism to the Muslim world or helped invent 'radical Islam', as argued by Matthias Kuntzel, is not without controversy. This is mainly because it assumes that:
- Radical or antisemitic tendencies in Islam did not already exist before the Hitler-Mufti meeting
- That there was an increase in, specifically 'radical Islamic', antisemitism post war, as opposed antisemitism by the anti-Islamist and socialist governments in Syria and Egypt.
- That this increase could only be attributed to Nazi propaganda and not to other events post-war
- That Nazi propaganda was widespread and taken at face value in the Arab world, and not challenged in any serious way, including on Islamic grounds
- That most Arabs even had access to radios in the first place and could (and did) listen to Axis propaganda (Joel Beinin challenges the idea that Qutb was inspired by the Nazis, since evidence for his radicalism did not appear until at earliest 1948).
- That the Nazi ideology was not contradictory; that the Nazis did not also praise the explicitly secular and anti-religious regime of Ataturk
- Regarding the Muslim Brotherhood, as Ulrike Freitag and Israel Gershoni put it:
- "To our mind, the Muslim Brothers' position vis-a-vis Zionists and Jews had its own logic: The Muslim Brothers aggressively agitated against the Zionist project and took a leading pro-Palestinian role in Egypt and the Arab world between 1936 and 1939. They did not need to nurture their hatred of Zionism, and sometimes of Jews in general, with external sources. Actually, at the same time they developed a clear-cut anti-Nazi and anti-racialist position. There is no hard evidence in al-Banna's rhetoric, ideology or practices that demonstrates any sympathy, let alone collaboration, with the Nazi regime in Germany or its aggressive anti-Semitism. On the contrary, al-Banna and other ideologues and activists of the Muslim Brothers rejected and denounced Nazism on the grounds of its racism and totalitarianism. They considered it to be a new kind of Western imperialism, crueller and more oppressive than the old imperialism of Britain and France. Therefore, to accuse them of Nazi influences because of their support for the Palestinian national movement and its leader, the Mufti, and because of his later collaboration with the Nazis amounts to guilt by association"
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/41303595
- As Mia Lee puts it:
- "Both sets of authors claim that Arabs increasingly participated in operations against Jews during the German occupation. But they do so without showing significant corroborating evidence of this alleged increase in violence, thus creating ambiguity about the reasons behind the rise of anti-Semitism in the region. Moreover, while they emphasise Arabs’ welcome of the Germans, neither set of authors convincingly addresses the findings of numerous studies from scholars of the Middle East that document how Middle Eastern leaders in the interwar era were suspicious or antipathetic toward imperial powers".. "There is no new evidence that the Mufti commanded the support of any significant number of Arab Muslims either during his exile or afterward. Moreover, neither book satisfactorily demonstrates that the Mufti’s anti-Semitic position was shared by Islamic groups in the Middle East during the war"
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/26852336
- Hitler was fascinated with Islam, but was also incredibly ignorant of even basic Islamic practices. For example, one of the ways the SS differentiated who was Jewish and who wasn't was by checking to see who was circumcised, and then killing them on sight. This was done completely ignorant to the fact Muslims also practice circumcision; the SS killed hundreds of Muslims Tatars before realizing their mistake.
- The extent to which radical Islam needed Nazism to proliferate, that it couldn't possibly spread without the Nazis for other reasons, is not, to put it lightly, an idea without some skeptics. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 01:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
- Beinin, Joel (2010). "Review of Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World; From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust". International Journal of Middle East Studies. 42 (4): 689–692. ISSN 0020-7438.
- Motadel, David (2015), Rüger, Jan; Wachsmann, Nikolaus (eds.), "Veiled Survivors: Jews, Roma and Muslims in the Years of the Holocaust", Rewriting German History: New Perspectives on Modern Germany, London: Palgrave Macmillan UK, pp. 288–305, doi:10.1057/9781137347794_16, ISBN 978-1-137-34779-4, retrieved 2024-10-09