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The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the ].{{pb}}
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I've had the article protected to stop the edit warring over the disputed content being added by ]. Hanzo, I suggest that you stop trying to revert to the massive changes involved in that single diff, and to present any changes you would like to see made in the article. That diff is not acceptable. I advise going slowly and adding material in a manner that other editors can easily see and view your changes. Your edit summaries continue to be uninformative. This style of editing has been objected to several times and it must cease. There is no consensus for your changes, SlimVirgin and I have both objected to your changes. &ndash; ] <small>]</small> 19:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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:You? I discussed with you, you stopped objecting and asked for "next step" (no one else joined). You revert to the version which claims Jasenovac was an extermination camp (it wasn't), and ] is linked as ] (click them!). And so on. It's just a badly made article. The only thing I thought was above average was the quotes (well done, unlike awkard ones in the Arkan and Iwo Jima articles I removed), and I was impressed by the section about the overall responsibility of Germany, not just the folks in SS and police (een if there's mentioned "government transport offices arranged the trains for deportation to the camps", but not the ] itself - needs a cleanup and interlinking, too). --] 19:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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::You need to re-read what I wrote, I did not 'stop objecting' and give consensus. Since no consensus was reached, I asked you what you thought the next step should be. I was hoping you would opt for my suggestion to make small edits, slowly implemented, with clear edit summaries; instead you chose to continue your edit war. I don't think reverting back to the version containing your massive and disputed changes is appropriate and I oppose it completely. I suggest you find another way, perhaps taking it ]. &ndash; ] <small>]</small> 19:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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Oddly no {{FAC}} tag on page during debate and not listed at ] (see http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:The_Holocaust&diff=next&oldid=142956072 & http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:The_Holocaust&diff=next&oldid=143011334)--><!-- That is partially correct. It was correctly archived. It wasn't correctly templated on the talk page, but was noticed. See http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:The_Holocaust&diff=prev&oldid=86927789 -->
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:::What is disputed? Okay, you guy may have all the homosexuals you want in the intro. Yay. I'd go and insert this NOW, but no, protected. So no yay. Anything else? --] 20:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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::::You will need to propose any changes you want to make to the article. Merely re-citing the disputed diff or any other diffs is not appropriate. The article is too long and the diffs are too massive to easily review. I also think comments such as the above stretch ], and make it more difficult to gain the cooperation of other editors. &ndash; ] <small>]</small> 20:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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::::Thanks, Dreadstar, for slowing this thing down. This is the second time I had to wade my way through a huge number of small edits, done seconds apart. It is not conducive to a reflective response. --] 20:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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== Non Jewish ==
== Estimates of Holocaust deaths ==

This starts out as a question for ] about a comment that he made on ] but I am placing it here as being more appropriate to this Talk Page than to that one.

On ], ] commented that estimates of Holocaust deaths range from 5.1 million to "somewhat beyond 6 million". In my very cursory review of Google results, I've only seen estimates ranging from 5.1 million to 5.9 million. I'm curious what estimates there that are beyond 6 million.

And, yes, I realize that this a hugely inexact science. Nonetheless, I think it is worthwhile to understand what the differences are between estimates. So far, I have only seen two kinds of estimates: one that goes country by country based on a "estimated percentage killed" and another which provides total deaths in concentration camps.

I'm sure the people who have conducted these estimates have been very thorough and have methodologies which have been both defended and criticized. Any links to online resources in this regard would be much appreciated.

I would like to see a more in-depth treatment of these studies and their methodologies. (The underlying agenda being to lay out the numerical case against Holocaust deniers such as Igor the Otter.)

--] 17:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

:No one will ever know the correct number of victims. ] himself, who supervised the Final Solution, and presumably received the best available reports, claimed the number was 6 million, and this appears to be the most commonly used 'ballpark' number. Our job is to state the views of the most reputable scholarly sources on this topic, which we ]. There is no point in having prolonged discussions about this issue &ndash; if someone has a better source, that can add additional insight into this topic, then go ahead and supply it. Otherwise, idle speculations and ] don't belong here. ] 18:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

::...in particular, since there are many different definitions of "Jew", and for many victims it will be hard to retroactively decide if they fulfilled each or any of those. But for Richard: The ] article has estimates up to 6.2 million. But, if I may: Don't lay out "the numerical case against Holocaust deniers". At best they will ignore you, at worst they will try to pick minor discrepancies and generate a lot of hot air from them. The evidence for the Holocaust is overwhelming. There is no need to elevate the deniers position by arguing on their turf. --] 22:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)



==Sources==

The "Climax" section (perhaps an unfortunate choice of words as well--please think these things through) contains no citations sourcing its content even though it purports to provide a quotation (that is, in an actual "quotation box") of Himmler's which comes "closer than ever before to stating explicitly that he was intent on exterminating the Jews of Europe". It seems to me that the assertions made in the section are significant and need to be cited or else this constitutes OR. Further anything in quotation marks, especially anything that has been translated from a foreign language and so is not a strict quotation, warrants special attribution. The footnote numeration jumps from 138 to 141 on either end of this section, so I'm not sure if there was some kind of editing error here. I'd like to throw in a "citation needed" flag but, alas, the administrators in their wisdom have locked the article. Perhaps one of them, SlimVirgin for example, could flag the section on my behalf.

:The article is locked, but in the meanwhile, here are some sources for ]:
:*
:*
:*
:*
:*
:*
:] 23:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)



==Archived==
I archived a big chunk to ], feel free to move any still 'live' conversations back or add more of the above to it. I basically left the 'protection' conversation on down, and archived the most recent soapy, troll-y stuff..;0 ] <small>]</small> 07:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

:You removed some good material dealing with the core problems on this article. -- ] <small>ᛇᚹᛟ</small> 11:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

::There's ''tons'' of good material in the sixteen archives. That's one of the downsides to this flat-text discussion format. --15:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC) {{unsigned|Jpgordon}}

==Article's problems==

* biggest problem is that almost the only experts cited are jewish and often related to people who were in camps, deported, etc.
* many deaths lumped together were from natural causes like food shortage, disease (allies to blame for not giving medicine), transportation interruption (allies to blame), bombings, overwork in the same sort of factories everyone has to work in during a war, etc.
* many deaths were of communists, sympathizers and insurgents (everyone shoots rebels and archenemies)
* does not well address which deaths were authorized by which authorities
* does not discuss defenses offered by Eichmann, guards or other people who have been accused, convicted or never charged with crimes related to these various activities lumped together under "holocaust" in this article
* does not offer balance between attitude that executing enemies of the nation is a commonplace event in human history and the attitude that somehow this particular killing of civilians is worse than all others

This article, while similar to the truth, is not fair and avoids some very interesting questions about what really happened in favor of parroting a few tired invectives against the Nazis. In fact it contains some severe distortions and near-slander, as well as turning a complete blind eye to the opinions of supporters of the Nazis, and focusing excessively on one group that happened to be victimized by them. This article is also part of a campaign to both exaggerate the failures of the NSDAP and downplay its successes, as well as paint it in a bad light which is a status apparently especially reserved only for the NSDAP - that is the status of "absolute evil" which is the opinion of many of the "experts" cited on this article about the NSDAP - "absolute evil". That's not NPOV that's rubbish. -- ] <small>ᛇᚹᛟ</small> 02:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

:Ignore the troll, please check contribution history. ]&nbsp;<small><sup>]</sup></small> 02:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised that he hasn't been blocked indefinitely. What is stopping that action from being executed? ] 03:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
::This is a highly-watched article (and talk page); we're perfectly capable of dealing with people of various opinions, and do not need your disputes with him to be dragged here. Thank you for understanding. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not reasonable for this article to get a more-than-fair treatment when there are many other similar articles about incidents in european history that people wouldn't want any hint of bias in. -- ] <small>ᛇᚹᛟ</small> 06:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

There's also little or no discussion of any defenses of exigency or following lawful orders that were given at the trials (kangaroo courts) in this article. Many Nazis were convicted and hanged just because a few people said they were cruel at the camps. It's a silly thing to focus on and make disproportionate to people like Stalin, Lenin, etc. I view the hangings ''of'' Nazis as almost entirely warcrimes against people whose actions had been greatly exaggerated in a smear campaign and revenge plot. It's disgusting the extent to which people were executed merely for having been Nazis or allegedly cruel which even if it were true is a crime sure but how many witnesses did it really take to prove it. Especially when it was clear the communists were the real threat. Most of the blame for the holocaust really lies on the allies and it's an absurd kind of newspeak where this magic tally of many of the casualties caused by the allies are applied to whatever tally the nazis had rung up fighting everyone's enemy - the communists and nihilists. -- ] <small>ᛇᚹᛟ</small> 07:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

:Reginmund writes, "I'm surprised that he hasn't been blocked indefinitely. What is stopping that action from being executed?" Fourdee probably will not be banned until (unless) he starts getting into revert wars over the article contents. As long as he just makes his comments on the talk page, Jeeny is 100% right: ignore him (and periodically archive talk). Spend your energy improving the article contents/style. ] | ] 10:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
:Personally, I find racist rants hurtful, however probably not grounds for blocking. Besides, the anti-semitic statements resemble so closely the whispered rumors spreading around Germany (and elsewhere)in the 1920s--later to hatch into full blown Nazi Propaganda lies--that they can provide lessons to us all: then few countered the statements and even fewer expressed any solidarity with the targets of such racism. However the continual breaking of WP rules is grounds for blocking. ButI suppose the guy just slips by with his rather phony claim to be trying to improve the article by questioning the identities of the references but since when does blood trump facts? Besides, how does one come so confidently to the conclusion about the ethnic/religious/ identity of a writer. Is it his/her name? Thousands of Kleins, Kaufmanns, and Blums would beg to differ. Traditionally a Jew is defined as having a Jewish mother, but that clearly undermines the use of family names. Or perhaps our editor would use the time-dishonored definition of at least three Jewish grandparents...--] 15:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

::There's no secret conspiracy between jews to lie about the holocaust, defame german nationalism, attack concepts of european race or ethnicity, and depending on coincidence of political philosophy, promote communism and nihilism, or right-nihilism as in libertarianism. These conspiracies are not secret. Neither side in this matter "whispers". As to what's a jew: these authors cited are jews. If any with ashkenazi or hewbrew sounding names are not in fact descended primarily from jews feel free to indicate that. I'm sure most of them are, by whatever measure, jews with a such a serious bias that they don't even know when they are lying anymore. Certainly there are a great many non-Jews involved in this broader agenda of left-nihilism but they don't really seem to be showing up on this article. This is a special interest of people who feel personally offended by the killing of a group they sympathize or identify with - people who should've just recused themselves from speaking as an authority on the topic at all, if they had any kind of integrity or even sense of self. -- ] <small>ᛇᚹᛟ</small> 15:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

{{{icon|] }}} Please refrain from making racist remarks unless you can provide a list of verifiable sources for your claims. If you do not intend to edit this article, please stop lurking on this talk page, no matter how much pleasure it gives you. --] 18:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

:This article certainly is not a pleasurable place to "lurk" considering it is part of a very successful smear campaign against one of the most beautiful and philosophically sound governments in human history. -- ] <small>ᛇᚹᛟ</small> 22:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

::: Since you are being so frank, I would like to ask you 3 questions. Firstly, what are your views on the revisionist British historian ]? Was he wrongly bankrupted and imprisoned for his views? Secondly, do you sympathize with the ] and ]? Thirdly, do you not think that some of your statements here might seem extremely offensive to WP editors whose relatives perished in german ]s? --] 04:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


The holocaust was not just Jewish murders. There were five million others murder. This page is a lie ] (]) 11:19, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
::Y'know, it is quite a relief to hear from an outright, unashamed admirer of the Nazis and their predations, rather than these folks who insist on covering their hatred of Jews with pseudo-historical appeals. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
:{{tq|The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II. Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews across German-occupied Europe, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population.}}" This page is about that, for other genocides look further {{tq|Separate Nazi persecutions killed a similar or larger number of non-Jewish civilians and prisoners of war (POWs);}} If you only had an ability to read with comprehension. ] (]) 13:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
::Sorry this is Zionist Propaganda.. the Holocaust was about White Christian Supremacy and Nationalism.. they murdered as many non jews and Jews.. Sorry by this page is a lie in denial and disingenuous. PERIOD.
::You insults prove my point.. its typical MAGA right wing crappp when you dont have an answer because I state the truth you resort to attacks ] (]) 16:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
:::{{tq|I state the truth}}, no you just state your opinon. ] (]) 10:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
::according to ], you are wrong. one page or the other needs to be changed. obviously its this one. ] (]) 21:48, 23 January 2025 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2024 ==
:::I don't hate Jews at all. I think Ashkenazi Jews are fine people and should probably be considered as Europeans. When I talk about a jewish media- or academia- oligarchy I am is just observing the ethnic group and apparent agenda of the people involved.
:::I do think that ethnic group ("tribe" or "family") is the core functional unit of humanity and is one's most important obligation, bar none. I see a ethnic nationalism as a beautiful thing on an emotional level, on the level of physical aesthetics, and most importantly to me as a profoundly meaningful philosophy that spans many elements of religion, natural science, politics and social philosophy.
:::On the other hand I see primary targets of the Nazis, the communists, as the ones who promote various destructive, nihilistic, anti-human, anti-nature, anti-god, anti-ethics, anti-nation, anti-individual beliefs which I can only classify as "purely evil and wrong".
:::However my admiration of ethnic nationalism is not what we are here to discuss. What is at question here is if this article is reporting an impartial history, or if it, and the academic field promoting this study, have been set up primarily to portray these mundane and largely justified or unavoidable acts as "murder" and to paint ethnic nationalism as "evil". -- ] <small>ᛇᚹᛟ</small> 01:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
::::"Mundane and largely justified or unavoidable". Ah. I see. ] and ] forbid me from saying what would be appropriate here, so I'll just ignore you from here on out. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


{{edit extended-protected|The Holocaust|answered=yes}}
:::::I don't care whether I offend policies, since fourdee doesn't care whether he offends intelligence. Recently his name keeps popping up on the talk pages of two articles I watchlist. This is one of them, the other one is ]. I sometimes check fourdee's diffs, but never see any substantiated information, no references, nothing of relevance. I do see a lot of confused rambling, pseudo-factoids and labels being thrown around - I have to assume that this is what he means by ]. But no devil would hire this lousy advocate who shows a very poor understanding of history, genetics, social sciences, or any other established form of knowledge, including logic. I hope he reconsiders his contributions here. Otherwise, by and by, he will be ignored by a lot of editors. It's far more healthy to ignore the likes of fourdee than to respond to their insults. Fourdee needn't reply at all, for I intend to do as jpgordon does. ---] ] 02:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
In Rise of Nazi Germany - Persecution of Jews, 3rd paragraph. Grammar error
"Out of the 560000 jews 130000 was able to emigrate between 1933 and 1937, most of them towards South Africa, Mandatory Palestine, and South America."


"Out of the 560,000 Jews in Germany, 130,000 were able to..." ] (]) 06:36, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::As is typical, the details are woefully lacking, but the assertions are bold - in fact I've never seen this editor contribute anything to these talk pages he mentions and I gather he has nothing to contribute or a limited ability to engage in debate. He is so frustrated by his inability to formulate a direct answer that he resorts to this fist-slamming temper tantrum and personal attack. It's very likely that this person has no idea what specifically is wrong with my conceptions of history or genetics (or "social science"), and is simply angry or dumbfounded. -- ] <small>ᛇᚹᛟ</small> 04:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
: Done ] (]) 08:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::As typical of you, ]. ]&nbsp;<small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 January 2025 ==
== About Estimates ==


{{edit extended-protected|The Holocaust|answered=yes}}
This article is highly in need of the next remark:
he Holocaust primarily targeted Jews, with approximately 6 million Jewish people murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators. However, millions of non-Jews were also killed during this period as part of the Nazi regime's broader campaign of persecution and extermination. Estimates for non-Jewish victims include:


Romani (Gypsies): Between 200,000 and 500,000.
'''Demographic estimates of the ]''' suffer from the same problems as estimates of the ''']''' and thus will always remain a controversial topic. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:04, August 26, 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Disabled individuals: Approximately 250,000, targeted through the T4 euthanasia program.
Polish civilians: Around 1.8 to 2 million non-Jewish Poles.
Soviet civilians and prisoners of war: Between 3.3 and 5 million Soviet POWs and countless civilians.
Political dissidents, resistance members, and others: Tens of thousands, including Communists, Socialists, and trade unionists.
Jehovah’s Witnesses: About 1,900 to 2,000 were executed for refusing to pledge allegiance to the Nazi regime.
Homosexuals: Thousands were arrested, with an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 dying in concentration camps.
In total, estimates for non-Jewish deaths during the Holocaust vary but are generally between 5 to 11 million. Combined with Jewish victims, the Holocaust claimed the lives of roughly 11 to 17 million people. ] (]) 21:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate. Note that the very first paragraph of the introduction already reads "Separate Nazi persecutions killed a similar or larger number of non-Jewish civilians and prisoners of war (POWs); the term Holocaust is sometimes used to refer to the persecution of these other groups."<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 22:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:48, 23 January 2025

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    ? view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Why does this article have The in the title? Most articles don't. A1: The name The Holocaust is common usage. Article titles follow subjects, not other articles. See also previous discussions on the question, linked in the move banner below. Q2: The Holocaust was not only about Jews; the total death toll was more like 11+ million. A2: As it says in the lead sentence which defines the scope of the article, the Holocaust "was the genocide of European Jews during World War II". As explained elsewhere in the lead and body, "separate Nazi persecutions killed a similar or larger number of non-Jewish civilians and POWs". As also explained in the lead and the body, "the term Holocaust is sometimes used to refer to the persecution of these other groups"; such uses of the term Holocaust constitute "significant minority views" as explained in Misplaced Pages's WP:NPOV policy. In accordance with WP:NPOV policy, Misplaced Pages states the mainstream view in its own voice, while also explaining significant minority views.
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    Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 5, 2023.The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that around 1,500 anti-Jewish laws were enacted by Nazi Germany in the years leading up to the Holocaust (victims pictured)?
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    Section sizes
    Section size for The Holocaust (32 sections)
    Section name Byte
    count    		 Section
    total
    (Top) 4,634 4,634
    Terminology and scope 12,717 12,717
    Background 4,659 4,659
    Rise of Nazi Germany 2,695 8,307
    Persecution of Jews 5,612 5,612
    Start of World War II 3,970 7,723
    Ghettoization and resettlement 3,753 3,753
    Invasion of the Soviet Union 3,603 10,892
    Mass shootings of Jews 7,289 7,289
    Systematic deportations across Europe 2,083 19,434
    Extermination camps 7,440 7,440
    Liquidation of the ghettos in Poland 5,316 5,316
    Deportations from elsewhere 4,595 4,595
    Perpetrators and beneficiaries 3,753 3,753
    Forced labor 6,047 6,047
    Escape and hiding 2,919 2,919
    International reactions 2,617 2,617
    Second half of the war 27 5,462
    Continuing killings 2,980 2,980
    Death marches and liberation 2,455 2,455
    Death toll 6,929 6,929
    Aftermath and legacy 62 15,144
    Return home and emigration 1,630 1,630
    Criminal trials 2,092 2,092
    Reparations 2,297 2,297
    Remembrance and historiography 9,063 9,063
    Notes 24 24
    References 33 13,574
    Works cited 18 13,541
    Books 6,908 6,908
    Book chapters 6,593 6,593
    Journal articles 22 22
    Total 124,835 124,835

    Non Jewish

    The holocaust was not just Jewish murders. There were five million others murder. This page is a lie 31.120.225.228 (talk) 11:19, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

    The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II. Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews across German-occupied Europe, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population." This page is about that, for other genocides look further Separate Nazi persecutions killed a similar or larger number of non-Jewish civilians and prisoners of war (POWs); If you only had an ability to read with comprehension. YBSOne (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
    Sorry this is Zionist Propaganda.. the Holocaust was about White Christian Supremacy and Nationalism.. they murdered as many non jews and Jews.. Sorry by this page is a lie in denial and disingenuous. PERIOD.
    You insults prove my point.. its typical MAGA right wing crappp when you dont have an answer because I state the truth you resort to attacks Rossen (talk) 16:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
    I state the truth, no you just state your opinon. YBSOne (talk) 10:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
    according to this, you are wrong. one page or the other needs to be changed. obviously its this one. Nickcastl (talk) 21:48, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

    Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2024

    This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

    In Rise of Nazi Germany - Persecution of Jews, 3rd paragraph. Grammar error "Out of the 560000 jews 130000 was able to emigrate between 1933 and 1937, most of them towards South Africa, Mandatory Palestine, and South America."

    "Out of the 560,000 Jews in Germany, 130,000 were able to..." EiouNoA (talk) 06:36, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

    Done Rainsage (talk) 08:20, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

    Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 January 2025

    This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

    he Holocaust primarily targeted Jews, with approximately 6 million Jewish people murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators. However, millions of non-Jews were also killed during this period as part of the Nazi regime's broader campaign of persecution and extermination. Estimates for non-Jewish victims include:

    Romani (Gypsies): Between 200,000 and 500,000. Disabled individuals: Approximately 250,000, targeted through the T4 euthanasia program. Polish civilians: Around 1.8 to 2 million non-Jewish Poles. Soviet civilians and prisoners of war: Between 3.3 and 5 million Soviet POWs and countless civilians. Political dissidents, resistance members, and others: Tens of thousands, including Communists, Socialists, and trade unionists. Jehovah’s Witnesses: About 1,900 to 2,000 were executed for refusing to pledge allegiance to the Nazi regime. Homosexuals: Thousands were arrested, with an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 dying in concentration camps. In total, estimates for non-Jewish deaths during the Holocaust vary but are generally between 5 to 11 million. Combined with Jewish victims, the Holocaust claimed the lives of roughly 11 to 17 million people. Rossen (talk) 21:31, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

     Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Note that the very first paragraph of the introduction already reads "Separate Nazi persecutions killed a similar or larger number of non-Jewish civilians and prisoners of war (POWs); the term Holocaust is sometimes used to refer to the persecution of these other groups." Cannolis (talk) 22:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
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