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{{onlinesource|year=2005|section=January 1-10
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|author=Storobin, David |author=Storobin, David
|date=January 3, 2005 |date=January 3, 2005
|org=Global Politician |org=Global Politician
|title=Nazi Influence on the Middle East During WWII |title=Nazi Influence on the Middle East During WWII
|url=http://globalpolitician.com/articles.asp?ID=274&t=Nazi-Islamist+Alliance+During+WWII}} |url=http://globalpolitician.com/articles.asp?ID=274&t=Nazi-Islamist+Alliance+During+WWII
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|year2=2010|section2=July 12
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|author2=McQuillan, Karin
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|date2=July 12, 2010

|org2=FrontPageMag.com
== Suggested addition to the article ==
|title2=Misplaced Pages’s Jewish Problem

|url2=http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/65452/wikipedias-jewish-problem-karin-mcquillan
Why in the hell is this under the collaborators section? The Nazi's never occupied Palestine. The Mufti's pro-Hitler statements was a marriage of convienence. Was the Indian Congress Party the collaborators of the Soviet Union becuase India was friendly to the USSR in the 60's?
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{{copied|from=Amin al-Husseini|to=Haj Amin al-Husseini}}
May I ask for the proof of the "predominately Greek Christian population in Smyrna, in the statement "al-Husayni joined the Ottoman Turkish army, received a commission as an artillery officer and was assigned to the Forty-Seventh Brigade stationed in and around the predominately Greek Christian city of Smyrna." It seems controversial.
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|listas=Husayni, Mohammad Amin Al-|blp=no|1=

{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=yes|military-priority=Low}}
So, while waiting for Zero's response, I revised my suggestion once again to accomodate his objections.
{{WikiProject Military history

|class =B
:A statement describing conversations between Eichmann and Wisliceny, himself a convicted war criminal, was presented on the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem. This statement was written down by German architec fellow (given name) Steiner, after Wisliceny told him about the conversations with Eichmann. Wisliceny signed this statement with to minor reserevations. . This statement suggested that Amin al-Husayni knew a great deal about the Holocaust and how it was carried out:
|b1 <!-- Referencing and citations --> =y

|b2 <!-- Coverage and accuracy --> =y
:"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz."
|b3 <!-- Structure --> =y

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:Mufti's role in Holocaust is still controversial. As Arendt said in ''Eichmann in Jerusalem'': "The trial revealed only that all rumors about Eichmann's connection with Haj Amin El Husseini, the former Mufti of Jerusalem, were unfounded". (Arendt, 1994, p. 13)
|b5 <!-- Supporting materials --> =y

|Biography =y
Looking forward to Zero's comments. --] 15:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
|Middle-Eastern =y

|WWI =y}}
Juicifer, could you please find where Zvi Elpeleg published the mufti's diaries, so it too could be included in the artice? --] 16:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Mid|Interfaith=yes}}

{{WikiProject Palestine|importance=Top}}
:Ya I saw it recently i'll go through my history when I get a minute. I'll send him an email instead perhaps. The first paragraph up there is OK by NOR NPOV and WP:V. The second one should perhaps be:
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=Low}}

{{WikiProject Islam |importance=Low}}
:: '''The extent of the''' Mufti's role in Holocaust is contested by '''a few historians'''. ''According to Arent in ''Eichmann in Jerusalem'': "The trial revealed only that all rumors about Eichmann's connection with Haj Amin El Husseini, the former Mufti of Jerusalem, were unfounded". (Arendt, 1994, p. 13)''
}}

{{User:MiszaBot/config
Hmm. actually that quote is problematic, as the evidence from the trial clearly shows that there was some connection. So to use the quote we would have to point out that it is ermmm.. kinda wrong. (Which is not suprising given the approach that revisionist historians take to primary sources.) I am not saying that we can't quote this guy or Zurtal at all because they made a few errors, but let's find quotes which are:
|archiveheader = {{aan}}
*a)not in contradiction with accepted sources
|maxarchivesize = 100K
*b)more than just a statement of their own POV
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I personally hting, given the minority position of this perspective that merely stating the POV and one or two protagonists would suffice. ] 22:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
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|algo = old(30d)
I have Elpeleg's biography of the Mufti (a book) and have gone through the long chapter on the Mufti's war-time activity several times. I do not believe that the alleged "quotation" from the Mufti's diary is there, nor is any similar quotation. Given that Elpeleg is no friend of the Mufti (actually, he is very hostile), this reinforces my suspicion that the quotation is bogus. My guess is that Jucifer found it close to a mention of Elpeleg's book and assumed it was from that source. The quotation also does not appear in the Carpi's article in Studies in Zionism. I also looked in an even more hostile source (a long article published years ago in American Zionist) and it wasn't there either. --] 23:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
|archive = Talk:Amin al-Husseini/Archive %(counter)d

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The Eichmann trial did ''not'' establish a significant connection between Eichmann and the Mufti. It only established that the Nazi Wisliceny had ''claimed'' there was a connection. I repeat: there are buildings full of German archives that document the activities of Eichmann and his department day by day and ''nobody'' has found any evidence of close collaboration between Eichmann and the Mufti. Actually this is a useless lead to take. Hostile historians like Elpeleg who seek to show the Mufti's complicity in the Holocaust ignore Eichmann and look at connections between the Mufti and Himmler. --] 23:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn

|target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes
So what we have now, is that Wisliceny had claimed there was a connection, but no further evidence exist. The fact that Wisliceny had claimed there was a connection, is certainly notable enough to be included in the article. You will of course need to provide a source for the claim that nobody has found any more evidence of close collaboration between Eichmann and the Mufti, but I think we are actually going somewhere.
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In any case, we should give jucifer time to find mufti's diaries. --] 23:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

== The removal of content concerning Handschar division ==

FYI. The who so far don't show that it has been pasted somewhere. While I agree that most of the text does belong there (somewhere), I wouldn't want us to lose it. I'm returning Haj Amin's ''Vienna Illustrated'' cover because I don't see a reason for its removal. ←] <sup>]</sup> 07:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

] Humus, I think it was you who uploaded this image. I wonder about the accuracy of the legend. These people look too old to be recruits and they aren't wearing Handschar uniforms (I think). --] 09:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Yes, I did it, and supplied the book and page number. That's about all I know about it. Maybe they were not too picky... ←] <sup>]</sup> 10:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

== "Pro-Nazi" ==

This is an important aspecy of this person life and work and should be in the opening paragraph.

If there are objection I would like to opem mediation on this subject.

You should ask yourself:

If it gets to ArbCom will they have enough scholarly sources saying he was Pro-Nazi ? Is there evidence for that fact.
I think you know the answer so don't remove what you know is true.

] 05:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

:It should be more than evident to you by now that consensus is entirely against your position. WWII German connections and dealings are fully put forth in the article. Inserting "Pro-Nazi" labels is NOT accurate, it is in fact a blatant POV. The man supported the German war effort in order to get rid of the Brits, he didn't care a fig for National Socialist ideology.--] 11:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

=== Two Questions to Zero ===

About this diff

Why have reverted ?

1. Do you think he was <b> NOT </b> pro-Nazi ?

2. You have replaced a link to the ] to a link about ] which leads to the ederal republic of Germany - a country that did not exist at the time the Mufti helped the Nzai germany army. So do you claim that the Mufti helped an army of a country that did not exist in the 1940s (when he helped them ?) or are you just trying to use Misplaced Pages for propeganda (although ArbCom have told you two years ago not to do it)


] 13:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

:On your second point, don't be silly. Germany has existed as an entity since 1871. Germany certainly existed in the years 1933-45. The article on Germany certainly deals with German history from before the Bundesrepublik. --] 18:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Just click on the link you just added. While the Mufti helped the ] army you placed a link to ]. ] 21:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::I suspect Zeq is attempting to hide the fact that he's re-added the Nazi reference. When I looked at his changes, I noted that he deliberately re-spelled a word that had been spelled correctly in a later paragraph. Once an editor spots the error (as I did) and corrects it, Zeq's previous edits won't appear under the (diff) view, and the new edit won't have his/her name on it. It's just a suspicion, however, and I apologize in advance if I've mischaracterized Zeq's edits. Personally, I think the issue of the Mufti's ties with Nazi Germany should be fully explored and mediated. Given his ancestry, I doubt al-Husayni sympathized with Nazi ideology. Instead, he probably saw the Nazis as a tool he could use. However, all of this deserves research, sources, and scholarly analysis and not the shallow treatment provided thus far. ] 16:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

*Whoo ! that was profound. but wrong. The issue was that the Mufti did not had ties with ] as the link lead you to think but with ]. Misplaced Pages has <b> two </b> different article for those two entities. If you wish to merge them i suggest you will run into some resitence. So don'y tru to do it here. ] 12:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

::: I suspect Zeg is simply on war trail here. What regards the term Nazi: it is quite well defined and should not expand to label everything what existed in 1933-45. ] 17:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::In general, and I don't mean any editor here, I suspect that this article works as a magnet and many Pro-Nazi people will read it. So it is important to label correctly who di the Mufti helped. ] 12:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

== Disruptive editing ==

The Nazi past of the Palestinian ufti is well knowm. Why do you try to water it down ?

Are there other people who's anti-semite feeling you wish to hide ?

] 12:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

: How long do we have to put up with you? --] 12:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

:: I will not be here for long but nither will you. ] 12:46, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

== some historians disagree ==

I removed the sentence, "Al-Husayni's actual role is disputed: although Zionist historians and the Mufti's own supporters agree that he was a major instigator of the violence, some historians disagree." Not to be too critical of whoever added it, but it really doesn't say much without descriptions of the views of particular historians. I'm also a little concerned with characterizations like 'Zionist' historian. If a scholar is reputable enough to be quoted, it might be better to just quote him as a historian. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

== Nazi stuff ==

Articles to be compared to would be ], and of course ]. They both are consequently using "German" and not "Nazi". It is natural this article would use German too. --] ] 20:26, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

He was helping the ]s. No way around it, it is an established historical fact and no[REDACTED] article can be used as primary source to disproove it.] 20:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

== Sources to consider ==

There are pleanty of sources for about this pro-nazi antisemite and this section will include some of them:

http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/mufti5.htm

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia.html - only for taking quotes from the "encyclopedia of the Holocaust"

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/mufti.html

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm

More to be added....] 13:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

== Nazi material consensus ==

ZEQ: I am going to repeat what I said earlier: :It should be more than evident to you by now that '''consensus''' is entirely against your position. <u>WWII German connections and dealings are fully put forth in the article. Inserting "Pro-Nazi" labels is NOT accurate, it is in fact a blatant POV. The man supported the German war effort in order to get rid of the Brits, he didn't care a fig for National Socialist ideology.</u> Stop trying to reinsert these labels.--] 10:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

: AladdinSE, he was Pro-Nazi. Nothing you will say will change it. In fact even if you will be succefull driving this all the way to ArbCom and they will agree with you it will just serve as one more proof how worthless Misplaced Pages has become. So go ahead try to argue and proove what you just said. total BS. Eeven if he was "anti-British" (which I can agree) he was also "pro-Nazi" ] 20:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Zeq, you've been complaining about Misplaced Pages and ArbCom and spouting emotional polemics here and there and you've entirely lost your sense of objectivity, if you've ever had one (I certainly haven't seen it). You can't even grasp the age-old adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Replies like "this is just the way it is no matter what you say or what ArbCom rules" is a childish tantrum, not a civilized discourse.--] 18:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

: AladdinSE, unless can you prove that "he didn't care a fig for National Socialist ideology", the above will remain a whitewash. ←] <sup>]</sup> 10:40, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
: For the record, I do not support exuberant labeling, especially in the first paragraph. ←] <sup>]</sup> 10:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, the burden is on ''you'' to prove he was a Nazi '''ideologue''' not just a military ally, to insert labels like "pro-Nazi" which consensus has consistently disallowed in this and in parallel arguments in other articles.--] 18:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

== An important source ==

http://aval31.free.fr/lemuftietlefuhrer/mufti_fuhrer.htm

http://aval31.free.fr/muftiofjerusalem/index.htm

== Another source for "kill the jews" ==

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/08/INGODGH99Q1.DTL

EDWIN BLACK is an award winning, New York Times and international best-selling investigative author of IBM and the Holocaust, The Transfer Agreement, and War Against the Weak. Black's writing has also appeared in numerous newspapers across the United States and Europe, and the world's leading magazines have also carried his work, from Playboy and Reform Judaism to Der Spiegel and L'Express. He is the recipient of numerous awards, and last year won the two highest awards of the American Society of Journalists and Authors: best nonfiction book of 2002 for IBM and the Holocaust, as well as best investigative article of 2002 for his piece on IBM at Auschwitz that appeared in the Village Voice. He has appeared on scores of network TV and radio shows from NBC's "Today Show", CBS's "Morning News", "Dateline", and NPR to England's BBC, Germany's ZDF, and France's TF-1. ] 12:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

== Mediation ==

Greetings, I am the mediator working on ]. First I would like a summary of the disagreement from the other editors involved before we get our mediation on. Thanks cordially, <font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 07:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


This diff provides the main dispute.

Zero has reverted the following:

*The description of Amin as an ].

We can break it to two issues:

::*Was Amin against the jews ?
::*If the answer is Yes - should he be described this way in Misplaced Pages ?

*Zero removed "supported the ]s during ]" and
*Zero replaced it with "A member of ]'s most prominent family, his most important official positions were as ] of Jerusalem and President of the ]." ... "and it is this title by which he is most remembered."

We can break it to two issues:

::*Did Amin supported the Nazis in ww-2 ?
::*Is it worth while to mention the cooperation with the nazis or should Misplaced Pages focus on his various titles and official capacities instead ? (i'll be glad to provide material explaining the level of such cooperation)


*Last but not lease is removing the wiki-link form the word ]. In this diff Zero went furthr and put a misleading link to the country ] which is the Fedearl Republic. Clearly if Zero thinks ] and ] are the same entity he should propse merging these two article (since one is seesm as POV fork of the other).

Since the common Misplaced Pages wisdom is that the name <b>Nazi</b> ie an NPOV description of the entity ] and indeed this is what seprates it from ] I think we should not hide the word "Nazi" where it is true and relevant.

One personal note: Zero wrote that my intentions are to create an equation "Arab=Nazi" - this accusation is not worth an answer . Too low. ] 17:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, now I'd like to hear what Zero has to say. I noticed two other people were listed on the mediation page ... how exactly were they involved? --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 18:43, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Similar types of edits (sometimes a subset, sometimes more): , , , , (last one is a cybbe edit) ] 05:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

:: al-Husayni's role as a Palestinian Nationalist leader and implacable opponent of Zionism is already described in the article. Al-Husayni's cooperation with the Nazis is already described in the article; in fact in proportion to its importance in history this part of his life receives more coverage than any other part. The current wording in the introduction: "During World War II, Al-Husayni conducted propaganda on behalf of Nazi Germany, and helped to recruit Muslims for the German army." is completely adequate. Every article can be improved but none of the changes that Zeq wants would improve it. --] 09:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

:::The issue is not "Every article can be improved but none of the changes that Zeq wants would improve it".

:::The issues are set above, and Zero have not provided his answer to each of these questions.

:::I would like to add another issue:
:::Zero first claim that I want to show that "Nazi=Arab" which was never my intention. He now clam my edits do not imrove the article. His edit summaries (such as "Zeq has been vomitting on the article again" are insulting and cause me not tp participate in this mediation (and Misplaced Pages as a whole) if my work is described in such terms) ] 12:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
:::: Does that mean you will go away? --] 13:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

::::This is exactly my point. It is impossible to conduct a civilized discussion under such atmosphere. I am very close to going away. ] 15:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
:::::Zero, please be nice. And now Zeq I want to see a specific list of changes you want made to the article (i.e. Wiki-linking Nazi Germany or whatever) and your justifications for each. And then I want to see Zero's response on why he thinks each edit may or may not be appropriate. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 01:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

::::::The list of changes is already above. can be seen here . I would also want to move the photo of his meeting with Hitler to the start of the article. A good start of dialogue will be to listen to Zero's specific answers to the questions listed above. ] 04:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Actually, it is you that has to provide the rationale behind making POV edits in the introduction. This being contrary to WP policy, I cant see how the mediation is going to change this. Readers should be left to judge for themselves after reading a particular article, you want to smack your POV right in their face from the very beginning. --] 09:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
:::::::For one thing, the picture with Hitler isn't nearly the same quality (you can barely make out who's in it), so it wouldn't be good to lead off the article with. Generally, in biography articles, you lead off with a picture of just the person anyway, not that person and other people. As for the list of changes, that link doesn't seem to go where you think it goes. I've gone ahead and wikilinked ] in the article because that does seem like a relevant and valid contextual link to make. Now, Zero, you've said that you think Husayni's links with Nazi Germany were a relatively minor part of his life ... do you have any evidence for that? It seems to me like being associated with the Nazis would be a big part of anyone's life. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 11:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::IMHO this is strongly cultural biased toward a Muslim/Palestinian POV:

:::::::::<blockquote>A member of Jerusalem's most prominent family, his most important official positions were as Mufti of Jerusalem and President of the Supreme Muslim Council. In 1921, he was appointed Mufti of Jerusalem by the High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel. He later adopted the title "Grand Mufti" with British consent and it is this title by which he is most remembered. </blockquote>

:::::::::This include facts which are not very important, are not central to his role in history. He is <b> most remembered </b> for entirely different aspects of his life (by a large group of people who were hurt by his actions)

:::::::::His official title, the family he comes from are all aspect that are important - in a society that values such issues. In different socities a persons <b> actions </b> are what counts. We need to include both POVs.

:::::::::So to make the 1st paragraph NPOV we must highlight <b> all </b> important issues about this person <b> and how he is remembered </b> not just by his <b> proponenets </b> but also by others who have a different view of him. Clearly there are those who see him first and formost as a Nazi-Colaborator and anti-semite who's actions contributed to much bloodshed. We can not hide this aspect of his life. Colaboration with ], being convicted by the British are all not to be taken lightly. ] 11:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


(trim left) I'm awaiting Zero's response but it does sound like you are onto something here. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 11:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

: al-Husayni's actual importance in history dropped to relative insignificance when he was (effectively) expelled from Palestine in 1937. There was a brief moment in 1947-8 when he may have become important again but that fizzled out when the Arab states side-lined him. His period with the Nazis was not important since in Germany he was a minor Nazi tool, a collaborator amongst thousands of collaborators. In any case, this part of his life is already covered at considerable length in the article. The introduction needs a brief mention that points to the section on that topic. It already does; using the word "Nazi" more than once would be propagandistic. (I never said that the single usage couldn't be linked, but Zeq wanted to add 3 linked appearances and a 4th.) This part of his life is emphasised by the Zionist movement for completely obvious reasons, and who can blame them, but that doesn't mean we should meekly follow along. Btw, he was never convicted by the British (unless we are talking about 1921, at which time a few Zionists were also convicted). On the wording: he is most remembered as "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" by everyone, both his supporters and detractors, as can be easily seen by surveying the literature (or just the web). Therefore the phrase "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" should appear in the introduction; it doesn't matter if the background of that title is moved to later. One more thing: asking whether he was an anti-semite is a childish question for which the answer can never be more than an opinion. To handle it in proper Misplaced Pages fashion one would have to quote named persons as claiming that he was and other named persons as claiming that he wasn't, and the result would be a useless mess that would destroy the introduction. Biographical articles should avoid name-calling and labeling, especially when that has a transparent political purpose. --] 12:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

::If I understand you correctly you claim that his role with the Nazis was minor. I disagree and there are many sources that would disagree. (see this for example:). Also with excpetion to the title "Mufti of Jerusalem" all the other roles can be moved out of the 1st paragrph to approriate sections. ] 13:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me as if "Grand Mufti" and collaboration with the Nazis should be in the lead-in, as those by far seem to be the most notable events of his life. Frankly, "collaboration with the Nazis" would seem to be a notable event in anyone's life. And I wouldn't call him a "minor Nazi tool among thousands" - according to sources from the article, he recruited hundreds, or thousands, of fighters for the Nazi German army. That's not insignificant. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 04:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

: Both those things are in the lead-in already and I'm not suggesting they not be. The Nazi period of his life occupies about 1/3 of the article, which is more than it deserves and some of that is quite biased. I'm not suggesting it be reduced however (though some rewording can be beneficial). As for "insignificant", we can argue over what it means. He ''helped'' to recruit to the German army, yes, but in the vast operation that was WWII his contribution had little effect. If it wasn't for Zionist writers keeping this episode alive, only a few military buffs would even know about it. --] 11:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::Amin al-Husseini was an enormously influential political figure in Palestine from, if memory serves, about 1920 on. His actions, long before the whole Nazi business, were quite important in the political development of Palestine. If anything, he probably had less influence on events during his Nazi period than previously. So to say it is the only, or most important, aspect of his political career is inaccurate. On the other hand, apart from its inherent importance it was quite significant in terms of how it was made use of in Zionist and Israeli propaganda afterwards. The question here is one of getting the right balance. It would also be a mistake to devote most of the article to the Nazi business simply as a result of that being what Misplaced Pages editors are arguing most about and therefore coming up with most information about from one perspective or another. ] | ] 11:11, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Can someone provide references of as valuable sources as possible that israeli propaganda attacked specifically Haj Amin al Husseini's antisemitism (and in what purpose precisely). Thank you. ] 11:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

*questions above still need an answer
*The role of "zionist propeganda" is not the issue. We are talking about known facts in this person's life. If he did things that now are used by "Zionist propeganda" maybe he should not have done those. His supporters can not delete history just because it is <b> less popular now </b> to be an antisemite.
*It is not just his Nazi Recuruitment that is the issue. He met with Hitler, some sources say he had influanced Hitler, some sources say he helped orgenize pro nazi attempts to change the goverment in Iraq, some say in Iran. In all honesty the scope of his involvment with the Nazis is not highlighted enough.
*His attitude toward Jews and Zionism, his use of Islam as a way to orgenize riots and attacks on Jews need to be highlighted.
*In Hebrew Misplaced Pages there is a large paragraph on his efforts to orgenize the Arab armies to invade Israel (even prior to formal establishing of the state of Israel.

:::I hope the above capture how this man is viewed by many. We need to represent this. Of course he was also a great mulsim religious figure and this must be noted as well ] 12:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Can we stop all these accusations of "Zionist propaganda" and what not? It's not constructive, and frankly, it's probably false. If he did have dealings with Hitler, which it seems like he did, it's important. That's not "Zionist propaganda". Cool it. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 15:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:That let rephrase that. This is not and should not be an argument between pro-Jews and anti-Jews. We are talking about the relative merits of what should be included in the article only. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 16:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::What about putting the first sentence as follows: "Mohammad Amin al-Husayni ... was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and Muslim religious leader''', who collaborated with ] before and during the ]'''? Looks like no one seriously disputes the fact that he collaborated with the Nazis. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
:::Zero, what do you think? --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 20:38, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::::Absolutely not. This presents as the most important of his individual actions something which is not such. As for Zionist propaganda, I am at a loss to understand Cyde Weys' comments here. I don't see where anyone has accused anyone else here of Zionist propaganda. That Husayni engaged in pro-Nazi activities and that this was later exploited by Zionist propagandists are simply facts, whose importance relative to the rest of his life must be established to ensure that this is a balanced article. ] | ] 17:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
:::The argument that some actions are "more important" than others is inherently unprovable. We have no scale to weigh his collaboration against his other actions. Nor does this sentence says that the collaboraton story was "the most important of his individual actions"; it simply lists the activities for which he is notable. I am struggling to comprehend why the opposition to mentioning his collaboration with the Nazis in the first sentence is so bitter and determined given that the article, including the intro, already covers this issue at length. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:47, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

:::: His Nazi collaboration should be mentioned in the introduction (it is), but in the first sentence is too much. The first sentence should focus on the most important fact about him; the fact that makes him notable enough to have his own Misplaced Pages article. Namely, he was the leader of the Palestinian Arabs for most of the period of the British Mandate. Incidentally, I don't think it is right to say that he collaborated with the Nazis before WW2. He had contacts with them and tried (with little success) to get support from them for his nationalist cause but "collaboration" is too strong a word. During WW2 he certainly collaborated. Zionists also had repeated contacts with the Nazis (and hostile authors call that "collaboration" too, but we should not play such labeling games). --] 22:39, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

:::::I agree that the first sentence should focus on the most important facts about him; meanwhile, some of the people in here are saying that his work for the Nazis is one of the most important facts about him. I don't think we should resort to a straw poll here as I think we should be approaching consensus, but if I were to, say, pick the two most important things about Amin al-Husayni to put in the lead-in sentence, it would be leading the Palestinian Arabs and working for the Nazis. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 01:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

::::: I would say that the most two important things are (1) that he was the political leader of the Palestinians, (2) that he was the Mufti of Jerusalem and therefore the leading Muslim figure in Palestine and one of the most important in the Middle East. These two facts are not the same. --] 02:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::*Sigh* ... alright, let's find out what others think then. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 02:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::He was first a religious figure. After his political ambitions ran in problems (with the rival clan of the Nashibi in Jerusalem) he used his religious standing to open a hate campaign against the Jews. This has helped him regain his political standing. He clearly went very far with his hate toward the Jews. There are those who say that he (by deeds, words and influence) prevented Jewish refugees from escaping from Europe so in that sense he causes their death. Clearly his views on the Jews, his cooperation with the Nazis, his incitement against the jews and his role in organizing the Arab armies invasion in 1948 are all important. In the Arab world, after being a leader he was cast aside because they understood his leadership has brought disaster on the Palestinian people. His only big supporters (from 1950 until his death at 1974) were his (proclaimed relative?) Yassir Arafat who use to say that he fought the Jews in 1948 because the orders given to him by the Mufti. Out of all this let's figure out what we want to say in the article. ] 04:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

*I wonder if we are converging and compromise is possible here. I sure tried to have one.
*So far i did not receive an answer to basic questions above which could be a base for a commonground.
*I asked these questions in good faith and I expect a good faith answer.
Thank you,
] 14:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
:I agree with Zero's comments above. If Pecher is right that we cannot tell whether one thing is more important than another, then we would never be able to write any article about anything, as the mere fact of selecting items for inclusion requires a judgement that they are more important than others. I do not see how anyone has proved that Amin al-Husayni's actions in support of Nazi Germany had anything like the impact that his actions in Palestine had. These latter actions are the subject of considerable comment in most histories of the British Mandate in Palestine. ] | ] 17:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
:::Palmiro has confused relative importance with notability. All facts that are ''notable'' according to the Misplaced Pages policy must be included into the article regardless of whether we deem some of them to be more mportant than the others. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
::::I haven't confused anything. You said that it was impossible to prove relative importance. That you accept that some things are notable and others aren't show that when you think about it you do not in fact believe this. Deciding that one thing is notable and another is not is a decision as to their relative importance. ] | ] 20:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
:::::No, notability is an absolute category, not relative one. Things are or are not notable by themselves, not in relationship, to other things. For example, a wedding is usually a very relatively important event in a person's life, but it need not be notable according to Misplaced Pages standards. It is not possible to argue that a layman's wedding is not notable because it's less important than other events because in this case we have no yardstick that would enable us to first, define which events are undisputably notable and then determine a cutoff point for notability on the scale of declining importance. In other words, we cannot have a workable definition of notability when the criterion for it is relative rather than absolute. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:15, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
::A qiock note to Palmiro: No one was or is trying to proove anything. The fact that Amin was pro nazi, colaborated with them, made many anti-Jewish calls and actions in his life - all this is undisputed. We are relly discussing here if the POV that emphasised his being a member of the mulsim council is more important than him being an anti-semite. ] 17:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
:::Hold on a minute. First of all, his position on the Supreme Muslim Council was a matter of fact, not of point of view. Secondly, we are discussing what is so important, and crucial to defining the importance of this historical figure, that it should go into the first sentence. ] | ] 18:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

:::: Excuse me ? If we are to bring facts: He was as much of an anti-semite and Nazi colaborator as he was president of muslim council. In <b> fact </b> he was still against the jews after he was removed from the council. The issue is not to bombared this article with all his titles. (the word mufti can be mntioned once not 3-4 times) but to give details about who he was based on his actions. ] 20:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

::::It is obvious that concerning Haj Amin al-Husseini he first was a nationalist leader in Palestine. All remaining is link to that. He became a religious leader for politcal matters. And the fact that he collaborated with the Nazis is not important for itself but more for the consequences this had on his action as political leader after world war 2. But again, this must be relativised. His "collaboration" didn't weaken his position with other arabs leaders (only his political status influenced their mind pro or contra). This is the same with the British who had expelled him from Palestine for his political action and who agreed to leave him come back (except at Jérusalem) in spite of his collaboration with Nazi regime because he was a political leader representative of much palestinian people. This proves they at least didn't mind. This is only in front of the outside world that his collaboration with the nazis had impact in increasing the "capital of sympathy" of the jews and as a consequence weakening the position of Palestinians. Whether you like this or not, I suggest you have a look once again at his caricature of May48 in NYTimes. ] 19:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

:::::The British "allowed himm to come back in spite of his collaboration with Nazi regime " - is that really so ? (please recheck) Nither the British nor most of the world (including the rab world) could never ignored what he did ebfore and during ww-2. ] 20:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

::::::I confirm nobody ignored what he did during WW2. I saw many article about that in Jerusalem Post of 1946 and have alos in mind that Pearlman published his book in 1947. I confirm that he was allowed to travell in Palestine except in the area of Jerusalem. My source is Pappé, "La guerre de 1948 en Palestine", p.98. Talking about the politicians of the Arab High Comitee, he writes (I translate) : "English had forbidden him to go to Palestine, but later, when this interdiction was limited to the area of Jerusalem, he never went to cities and villages of the Mandatory Palestine." ] 20:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

::::::::Peppe is the person who in June 2005 published a warnning saying that israel is removing the settlers from Gaza so it can attack Gaza with such a horrible weapon that would harm the settlers if they stay only few miles away from the city. (i.e . he accused Israel for wanting to nuke Gaza...) so I just wanted to make sure you know your sources....But if you want to add something like "according to peepe the British ignored his nazi coloboration and allowed him to come back to Palestine" that is fine by me. ] 21:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The British certainly did not allow him back into Palestine while they were in charge. Did Pappe really claim otherwise? After the British left, the Arab states were also reluctant to allow him into Palestine. The first time he got there was in September 1948 when he went to Gaza in secret for a few days but was thrown out by the Egyptians when they learned about it. (Elpeleg p97). --] 00:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

:That is what Pappé writes and he is Prof of History at Haifa and widely published in the french world, more than Morris. I also read that Prof Gelber refused to be published in a review that would publish Pappé. I don't want to comment Morris political analysis about the inevitable ethnic cleansing and the absence of solution to the conflct. These guys are poor politicians but competent historians. Zero, this is an assumption, do you have a reference with a quote because I already inserted this information in the French wikipedia. ] 06:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

:: I wonder if you have Pappe's context right. Maybe the "later" is referring to a time after the British left. The two books on the Mufti that I have handy agree on the basic facts here. In Mattar p119: "The British sought to 'checkmate' the Mufti regarding Palestine throughout the Middle East. They refused to allow him to return to Palestine. ... In addition, they repeated 'warned' the governments of Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon to 'control' the Mufti's diplomatic activities." Same source p132-133: "he secretly arrived in Gaza on September 28, 1948 - the first time that he stepped on the soil of Palestine in 11 years. ... Within days, the Egyptian prime minister and defense minister ordered the Mufti back to Cairo". Same source p138: "Amin al-Husayni was allowed early in 1967 by King Husayn to briefly visit Jerusalem for the first time in thirty years." Moving to the book of Elpeleg, p96-97: "Haj Amin flatly denied accusations against him that he had avoided returning to Palesine in order to go on enjoying the 'good life' in Egypt. .. He described the attempts that he had made to return...both before and after the British withdrawal. In one of these attempts, at the end of September 1948, he had managed to get to Gaza in secret. He remained there for a few days, until the Egyptians returned him forcibly to Cairo." Elpeleg then states his opinion that the Mufti might have been able to return earlier if he really wanted to, but he never says that returning was ''permitted''. Refering to the 1951 time period, p127: "Haj Amin was prohibited from entering Jordan, and Egypt prevented him from operating in the refugee camps in the Gaza Strip". --] 10:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Thank your for the information. There cannot be no misunderstanding of the context with which Pappe give the information. He is talking about the palestinian preparation to war before 15 may. Most of the chapter refers to period between Nov30 and May 15 with some go back in the years before. In that specific lines, he is blaming palestinian politicians for their uncompetence having "abandon" them: only 3 of 12 members of the Arab High Comitee were in Palestine while other where at Damas. And then he clearly precise that Mufti never went to Palestine while British had limited his restriction of movement to Jeruslam (My translation above is not a summary, this is a word by word translation). Whatever, it is clear that it is a controversial information. Pappé doesn't indicate reference for this information. ] 12:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Anyway, the topic was : is Mufti first a politican or a nazi collaborator and the point I wanted to underline was that he was not forbidden access to Palestine because of his collaboration but because of his anti british activities (ie political activities) before war. Maybe also because he was an ennemy of Abdallah's (and therefore) British's plans of not leaving the Palestine state born but leaving this be annexed by (Trans)Jordan... That sounds logical but I don't have any reference about that. ] 12:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

::::Unless someone has a clear source for any of motives of the British for that did or did not do - we can not get any conclusion about the Mufti life from the hidden British motives. Let's focus on what he did and what he said. ] 13:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

===Back to the roots===
After all the hair-splitting, let's try and return to the subject of the dispute, to wit, how the first paragraph in general and the first sentence in particular should be worded. Arguments were made that because al-Husseini's role as collaborator was less important than his role as a nationalist (some would say, anti-Semitic) leader. No matter how we weigh the relative importance of al-Husseini's several roles, there is still no reason not mention all of them in the first sentence. Take, for example, an article on ], which is a featured article, by the way. The first sentence says: "''Sir Isaac Newton ... was an English physicist, mathematician, astronomer, alchemist, inventor and natural philosopher''". It is undisputable that Newton's achievements in alchemy were - to put it mildly - somewhat less important than his contributions to physics and mathematics. Yet, the fact that he was an alchemist is included in the first sentence alongside the descriptions of him as physicist, mathematician, and what not; in a nutshell, everything for which Newton is notable is said in the first sentence. Because ] is a featured article, we may be safe to conclude that this is a good example to follow, and by extension, everything for which al-Husseini is notable must be included in the first sentence. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
:Agreed, this seems reasonable. Everything notable about Husayni should be summed up in the first sentence in as few words as possible. How about something along the lines of, "Amin al-Husayni is notable for being the leader of Palestine, a collaborator with the Nazis, and the Mufti of Jerusalem". --] 02:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
:: In the interests of ending the dispute, I'll agree to that as a basis. The first description "leader of Palestine" is not quite right; it should be something like "Palestinian nationalist leader". --] 03:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

=== proposal for vote #1 ===

* '''Mohammad Amin al-Husayni''' (ca. ] - ], ], أمين الحسيني, alternatively known as '''Amin al-Husseini''') is notable for being a ] ] nationalist leader, a collaborator with the ] and ] of ].

I think "is" should be "was" (better English) and we don't really need "is notable for". Also "al-Husseini" is not an alternative name but just an alternative English spelling of the same name. Also add a comma to clarify the parsing. Therefore:

* '''Mohammad Amin al-Husayni''' (ca. ] - ], ], أمين الحسيني, also spelt '''Amin al-Husseini''') was a ] ] nationalist leader, a collaborator with the ], and ] of ].


===Proposal for vote #2 ===

* '''Mohammad Amin al-Husayni''' (] - ], أمين الحسيني, also spelt '''Amin al-Husseini''') was the ] Grand-] of ] and became a ] nationalist leader. During ] he collaborated with the ]s and helped recurit ]s for the ] army. Husseini is known for his anti-Jewish views and his strong objections to ].


] 15:51, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

===Other reference sources===
This is the complete entry from ''The Oxford Companion to World War II''

:'''Husseini, Hadj Amin el-''' (1897?–1974), pro-Axis Mufti (a Muslim religious official who issues Islamic law rulings) of Jerusalem from 1921 who led the Arab revolt in Palestine during the 1930s. Forced to flee in 1937 he eventually reached Iraq where he worked closely with Rashid Ali against British influence in the Middle East. After Rashid Ali's revolt against the British failed in April 1941, the Mufti ended up in Germany working as a propagandist and as recruiter of Muslim volunteers for the German forces. See also anti-imperialism.

::"Husseini, Hadj Amin el-" ''The Oxford Companion to World War II''. Ed. I. C. B. Dear and M. R. D. Foot. Oxford University Press, 2001. ''Oxford Reference Online''. Oxford University Press.

This is the introduction from the general article on the mufti in ''Encyclopedia Britannica'':

:'''Amin al-Husayni''', born 1897, Jerusalem, Palestine, Ottoman Empire, died July 4, 1974, Beirut, Lebanon, also called Al-hajj Amin - grand mufti of Jerusalem and Arab nationalist figure who played a major role in Arab resistance to Zionist political ambitions in Palestine.

::Husayni, Amin al-. (2006). ''Encyclopædia Britannica''. Retrieved March 4, 2006, from Encyclopædia Britannica.

These should prove useful. --] 11:46, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

===Proposal for vote #3===
'''Mohammad Amin al-Husayni''' (ca. ] - ], ], أمين الحسيني, alternatively known as '''Amin al-Husseini''' and "Mufti of Jerusalem"), was a ] ] nationalist and ] ] religious leader, who fought fiercely against the establishment of a Jewish state in the ] and to this end collaborated with ] before and during the ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' As nominator. The proposed first sentence lists everything for what al-Husayni is known: nationalist and religious leader, his fight against the establishment of the Jewish state, and collaboration with the Nazis. Nothing appears omitted. The link between anti-Jewish struggle and Nazi should not be contentious as it follows directly from the article that when he made his overtures to the Nazis, his primary concern was the fight against the Jews. In addition, his collaboration began in 1938, i.e. before the WWII. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. ←] <sup>]</sup> 21:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

*I have one big problem with it: "Jewish state" is a misleading name. Homeland for the Jewish people was part of the mandate the British got and this is what he faught against. He also caused many riots between Jews and muslims. ] 15:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
:*Not sure I have fully grasped you argument. Why do you see "Jewish state" as misleading? Because the sentence does not say that its establishment was among the terms of the British mandate?] <sup>]</sup> 15:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

::That was not thw words used in the mandate. ] 15:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
:::Well, "homeland" is not as precise as "state", but that's after all, what the drafters of the mandate meant: an independent Jewsih state. For this reason, I would favor "state" in an encyclopedia. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge of 2 & 3:

'''Mohammad Amin al-Husayni''' (ca. ] - ], ], أمين الحسيني, alternatively known as '''Amin al-Husseini''' and "Mufti of Jerusalem"), was a ] ] nationalist and a ] religious leader. Husseini is known for his objections to ] and fought against establishing a homeland for the ]ish people in the ]. To this end Husseini collaborated with ] before and during ] and helped recruit ]s for the ] army.

] 15:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

:I wouldn't really object to this version, as it looks essentially the same as version #3, just a little bit longer. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

:: He did not really fought against Jewish state or homeland. I would say Jewish self-determnination instead. Also, I don't know whether Waffen SS in the Balkans can be considered the German army. My version follows below. ←] <sup>]</sup> 21:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

'''Mohammad Amin al-Husayni''' (ca. ] - ], ], أمين الحسيني, alternatively known as '''Amin al-Husseini''' and "Mufti of Jerusalem"), was a ] ] nationalist and a ] religious leader. Known for his ], al-Husayni fought against ]ish ] in the territory of the ]. To this end Husseini collaborated with ] before and during ] and helped recruit ]s for the ].
:I'd say that "self-determination" is somewhat too general, especially in that historic context. The British Mandate over Palestine clearly put upon Britain the obligation of establishing a Jewish national home there, which everybody interpreted as an independent state. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

'''Support'''. The merger of proposals 2 & 3 seems to cover all the bases quite well. —] 22:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

::This is just getting silly now folks. --] 22:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Just in case this discussion is not messy enough, some comments: "Waffen SS" is ok because it is factual (but it was indeed a part of the German army). I object to saying that he collaborated with Nazi Germany ''before'' WW2 because the word implies that ''he'' did significant things for ''them'' at this time, but he did not. He had only ''offered'' to collaborate. Also "self-determination" is a bit too vague for my liking, and a tad on the PC side. What he fought was what the Zionists wanted: the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. Finally, "Amin al-Husseini" is not an alternative name but an alternative spelling and "Mufti of Jerusalem" should not be placed as if it is an alternative name. It was a position he held so it should go in the list of roles. {{unsigned|Zero0000}}

'''Proposal #4'''<br>'''Mohammad Amin al-Husayni''' (ca. ] - ], ], أمين الحسيني, alternatively spelt '''al-Husseini'''), the Mufti of Jerusalem, was a ] ] nationalist and a ] religious leader. Known for his ], al-Husayni fought against the establishment of a Jewish state in the territory of the ]. To this end, Husayni collaborated with ] during ] and helped recruit ]s for the ].

<s>: Works for me. ←] <sup>]</sup> 00:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)</s>

:He clearly cooperated with the Nazis after Munich, and there is even a special section in the article devoted to his pre-war Nazi ties saying he received "financial and military assistance". Otherwise, the proposal is fine with me. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

::add "before and" ... per Pecher - otherwise fine by me. We need to keep in mind that this is the 1st sentence. We would later need to work more on this article. ] 08:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

: Receiving aid does not imply "collaboration". Collaboration is a two-way process. Another reason I object to that wording is that "before WWII" has no starting point and seems to consume the long period of the Mandate when he was in Palestine (1920-1937). In fact his contacts with the Nazis during that period were less than those of the Zionists and had no practical consequences. Only from 1938 onwards was that not true. --] 09:40, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

::Well this article is about him.Zionist cooperation with the nazis is a different article. He did colaborated with them prior to the war as well. Aid does not just fall from the sky. ] 10:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

::: But it does. Governments, including Germany of 1938, give aid when they consider it in their own best interest. --] 10:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
:::: Zeq & Pecher convinced me here. First, 1938 is <u>before</u> WW2. Second, there is a whole lot of unhealthy interest to Zionist "cooperation" with the Nazis. I am for inclusion of the text "before and" or at least something to the effect of "from 1938 onward". ←] <sup>]</sup> 11:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

::::: Nobody has yet specified how he "collaborated" in 1938. Asking for aid and getting some is not collaboration. --] 11:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

"Collaborated" is a ]. I looked it up in the dictionary, and one of the given meanings is: "cooperate traitorously with an enemy." It is POV to suggest that Husayni's cooperation with the declared enemy of the mandatory power, Great Britain, was "collaboration", i.e. traitorous, or that Germany was Palestine's enemy, just because Britain was the mandatory power. I have replaced ''collaborated'' with ''cooperated''.--] 16:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

== al-Husseini, el-Husseini, Al-Hajj Amin or Haj Amin ==

This is a minor point but for sake of accuracy:

al, el - are both different spelling of the word "the" in Arabic.

so "al-Husseini, el-Husseini" are really "the Husseini" (which is already part of his name)

Al-Hajj Amin or Haj Amin - are both the same word.

so "al-Husseini, el-Husseini, Al-Hajj Amin or Haj Amin" can and should be shortned to "Haj Amin"

The correct spelling should be: Amin Husseini as this is his name. ] 12:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

: We should use the name used by professional historians, which is "Amin al-Husayni" or equivalently "Amin al-Husseini". We should not use "Haj" because that is a title not a name and titles are not used by WP policy. --] 12:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

::I accept. we need to shorten thism line based on your suggestion. ] 13:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

== quotes that the Mufti was *not* antisemit ==

Could someone provides quotes from as valuable sources as possible that he was not antisemit ? ] 21:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on the claimnant. The default position is not that everyone is an anti-Semite unless it is proven otherwise. Although, recruiting for the Nazi army might be enough right there to establish anti-Semitisim. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 04:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::It is well estblished that many of his actions were against the jews, in different occastions he made calls to kill the jews. He is described as an anti-semite in many places. I am quite sure that if he was alive today and asked <b> "Are you against the jews ? "</b> he would proudly answer: "Yes !". ] 06:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::I can't say I see how recruiting for the German army is proof enough to establish someone as an anti-semite. Being a general in the same army would not be proof of this. And the nature of your claims all boils down to interpretation of motive etc, which can never be more than a POV. It is more than enough to have his actions described, it is not up to WP to draw conclusions from them. --] 08:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::A call to kill the jews is pretty clear. Where I come from actions speak loudly. Many people see him as antisemite based on his actions and words. His pro-Nazi and anti-Jewish actions are by far more than just "recurting" for the Nazis. He is described as "Antisemite" and "Pro-Nazi" by many. ] 08:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Maybe but could someone provide quotes from as valuable source as possible that he was not antisemit ? Thank you. ] 11:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::I seriously doubt such sources exist. But maybe. If ther are serious scholarly sources we need to see them. I realize off course the burden of prrof in a formal trial is on those making a claim but we are in an in formal discussion, having a crediable source claim he was NOT and antisemite would be helpfull to explain his acts (maybe?) ] 12:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:::Such a question is about as interesting as "could someone provide a quote from an as valuable source as possible that he was not a ]?". Why would a serious scholar go at lengths describing someone _not_ as an antisemite? Stop try to put the burden of proof where it does not belong, and consider WPs NPOV policies. --] 19:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::::Please read up on ]. NPOV does not mean that articles cannot contain any POV at all (anti-Semite is a POV). It means that POV must be treated neutrally. If we can find sources showing that Husayni was decidedly anti-semite, or identified as such, it goes into the article. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 20:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::A source that shows he ''decidedly'' was an anti-semite? Please tell me, what would such a source be? If someone makes a claim that he was an anti-semite, and they are noteworthy enough for their opinions to be relevant, they might go in the article, but it can obviously not pass as a fact. The claim must be attributed as such. Opinions are not facts. --] 21:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::: 4 case enables to be so "crude" : 1. when the people refers himself as such, 2. when justice condemned him as such. 3. When there is no controverse about the fact he is such 4. When he made statements that can be attributed to him and that are not controversed as such. For example, Iranian President is anti-semitic because he claimed anti-semitic theories. ] 07:46, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
::::: Your alleged cases: 1) Uh, no. If he described himself as such, we could state he described himself as such. His POV is still a POV, e.g. if he had described himself as "a man of peace" it would not amount to a fact. ; 2) Who and what is "justice"? And still, we should only state facts, e.g. "he was convicted of...", or "he was found guilty of..." ; 3) A POV is still not a fact even though a vast majority agrees, e.g. Hitler was arguably an evil man, but stating that as a fact is still a breach of the NPOV policy. 4) Still POV, still goes into interpretations and mind guessing. Again, the correct way is to cite what he has said, if you think it is obvious from the statements that he was an anti-semite, there should be no need to point that out. It all boils down to correct application of WP policy. --] 16:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::Funny. I assume there is no one antisemite as a consequence ? Could you please answer ? Please, could you also precise what could be stated about Hitler, you talked about... And also, be consistent with yourself then and go and explain eg to Palmiro just above there is no zionist propaganda, please ;-) ] 17:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Im not saying there are no anti-semites. Im saying it is not up to us to state as _a fact_ who are and who arent. This is policy, and the example I did on Hitler is taken from ]. Oh, and I expect Palmiro to express his POV on talk pages, I certainly do, this place is for discussion. --] 22:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, but could you please indicate to me who in earth history *is* antisemite ? ] 19:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::::: Why? This is no tea-party, and as I have explained, it would be of no relevance. --] 21:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::::: For the record, I agree with Cybbe's comments on this issue. --] 02:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

:It is clear you lack knowledge on this topic. Here is one : . ] 20:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::Anyone who think Mark Weber is a serious refernce is making a big mistake and also hurting his own credability. He is known as holocaust reveionist and argues that laws against holocaus denial are a disgarce to Humanity.....

:::I'm going to have to agree here. Just because something is online doesn't mean it can be trusted. And seeing as how these people are generally associated with being Holocaust deniers, I don't think we should use anything by them. They seem decidedly POV. --] 20:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::Since I assume ] just did not know who is was bringing as refernce I would just rather ignore it and say that there are no evidence that the Mufti was non antisemitic but there is pleanty that he was. ] 20:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:::Well, you're right about Weber's lack of credibility, but I don't see what his opinions about holocaust denial laws has to do with that; plenty of people who would disagree with Weber on every other thing might agree with his distaste for such laws. Me, for example. --]] 20:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::::Since we agree about Weber's lack of credability and we seem to agree about him not being a good refernce we don't have to continue this discussion and we can go back to the Mufti.] 20:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::::Hi Zeq. I perfectly know where I took this reference. I only ask for AS VALUABLE AS POSSIBLE sources about the fact that the Mufti was not a antisemitic to add in the below mentionned articel. ] 20:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am sad to hear that you know where you took it from and still decided to use it. ] 20:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

::::::Zeq, I think you lack jewish humour :-) ] 21:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

== ] ==

First I want to underline that I am not involved in your dispute. I started gathering these sources far before this dispute started. I don't mind Haj Amin al-Husseini's life. I have gathered all references about people talking about his antisemitism (pro or contra) in the forementionned article. The article is perfectly sourced and all authors are referenced. Everybody who wants to add "well referenced" source is welcome. Regards. I have started gathering information from people claiming he is not. They just have to be added. ] 20:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:I have a constructive comment about the fact that the title is not NPOV enough and should be : ]. Any comment ? ] 07:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

:I remind that if somebody has references about this topic, at the condition they are well-sources and referenced, they are welcome. ] 07:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

from Cyde's talk page

Main article namespace is for encyclopedic content only. What you have is a list of references that aren't a standalone article and should either be merged into the main article on ] or put somewhere in your userspace. --<font style="background: #000000" face="Impact" color="#00a5ff">]</font> 23:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
:I don't think it should appear in the main article because it would balance this. I thought it would be better to treat this information an equivalent way as : ] or ] in ]. ] 08:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

=== vote at the date of March 6 ===

Delete : 5

Merge or rename : 8

(one Delete or merge not taken into account)

] 17:16, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

===Brief response to Christophe===

I'm sure everyone appreciates your going to so much trouble Christophe, but almost all of this material is too poorly sourced to go in the article. I would only be comfortable with Elpeleg and Arendt, and the latter hasn't done any work on the mufti. As a Belgian resident you probably aren't aware that iUniverse and Xlibris (publishers of the books by Morse and Carlson) will publish anything sent to them for a fee. Self-published sources are not allowed in Misplaced Pages, see ]. Most web sites also fall in to the category "self-published" as there is no quality control mechanism. Of your 17 references I see the following,
*Self-published books 15 & 17.
*Same source: 2 & 3 (only reputable historian cited).
*Propaganda web sites: 6, 7, 13.
*No relevant content 4, 8, 10, 12, 16.
*Unsourced claims: 5 (letter to the Editor (not a biography), quotation disputed by historians), 9.
*Propaganda pamphlet: 11 (Pearlman, Haganah spokesman, Lt Colonel in the IDF).

I'm sorry to be so negative. --] 17:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

===you didn't even read the text...===

:You don't have to be sorry, just to be honnest...
:Note there is no 17 references but only 9. The additionnal notes (the only thing you read as proven by your comment "no relevant content 4, 8, 10, 12, 16) give information about where the information comes from or leave to the reader the opportunity to check what is written.
:Sorry you didn't read the text. This would also indicate that your vote for the deletion was a pure act of angryness. Sorry for that.
:I strongly underline that this material is NOT poorly source. Everything is perfectly and particularly well sourced. Maybe authors could be controversed (and certainly even for some) but this is WHAT THEY CLAIM. Nuances are important : only their reliability can be discussed.

I numbered them from 1 to 9 for clarity :

'''1''' is Arendt. so is good.

'''2''' is Zvi Elpeleg. so is good.

'''3''' You comment 'unsourced claim'... This is Dr Walter Reich's claim, ] Memorial Professor of International Affairs, ] and Human ]. What can we reproach to him ? Competence ?

'''4''' You comment propagandist website : Simon Wiesenthal is a propagandist. Maybe. I really don't know. I precised his claim, reported this and showed where to find them. Give me a quote that can justify he is a propagandist.

'''5''' For Edwin Black and his book : "IBM and the holocaust", you say quotation disputed by historians. Maybe. Could you provide them ?

---

'''6''' I agree he is a propagandist. Of course. But this doesn't prove he lies. That is why I clearly wrote who he was and give the reference of a book written by Ben Gourion about him... Reader can judge by himself.

'''7''' Of course Joan Peters is controversed. I even wrote why and who controversed her : Chomsky and Finkelstein. But is she controversed for her quotes about Mufti. Not at all according to what I know : it is because she defended the thesis of a land without a nation for a nation without a land. Morris stated in Haaretz Ben Gourion should have attaqued cisjordania in 1949 and he stated that Muslims were barbarians : do we have to remove all of what he writes ? No we just repport what he writes.

'''8''' I hesitated much about Morse but he is neverthless a candidate for the congress of the united states... I hardly see how we could censure claim's from him...

'''9''' I dont know who is Paul Carlson. But nothing indicate he could be a liar. He quotes Bar Zohar who I discover yesterday is quoted on palestineremember and I therefore assume a reliable source. But that was n°9.

---

] 23:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

=== about 7, J.Peters ===

: No, Joan Peters is controversial because her book has been shown to be full of untruths and deceptions. That is quite different. --] 03:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

::Chomsky is also full of deceptions. Still he is a source. If there is a dispute about a <b> specific quote </b> from Peters you should bring the other POV -"describe the controversy" is the way Misplaced Pages handle if something is POV. The policy sais "NPOV, not "truth" .] 05:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Hello Zero. You must be right. When I read that hypothesis of a land without people for a people without land I can hardly believe the remaining is true. '''But this is not my problem'''. This is Joan Peters'problem. I report her claim. If she was the only one, I think she should not be place. Do you have a report from a notorious writer that would indicate she is controversed because "her book has been shown to be full of untruths and deceptions" ? ] 09:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

:::: I don't understand your remarks. Of course the fact that Peters' book is widely held in contempt means that it is not a good source for Misplaced Pages. Out there are many articles and books written by serious professional historians (Peters is not a historian at all but a journalist). We should use them simply because they have a higher chance of being correct. Our aim should be to be as accurate and balanced as possible. --] 23:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

:::::I agree of course WK must be balanced. I agree the more professional a writer, the better. That is not what I mean. The fact reported is not that "XXX is YYY" which is very hard to report a NPOV-way. Even impossible. The fact reported is that "ZZZ claims that XXX is YYY". This is perfectly NPOV. As soon as somebody is notorious, I don't understand how it could be NPOV to decide his mind cannot be reported by wikipedia. Even more, if (s)he already has an article in WK about him, even more if there is already an article about the book. So againt, I insist : the topic of this article is not to state that "XXX is YYY". The topic is to report all the references stating that "XXX is YYY". What it can mean or what people would deduce is not my concern. I am NPOV so I don't have to care about that.

:::::But of course I agree to discuss about this here in the talk page. This could mean 2 things : whether "XXX is YYY" or there are many ZZZ's that want to make believe that "XXX was YYY". I really and honnestly don't know (and don't care). I have my own opinion but this is not important. The fact (and that is important for wikipedia) is that "XXX is densely reported to be YYY". What would be very interesting is to add claims that "XXX was not at all YYY". But I didn't find any. And wonderful, an analysis from a historian that analyse the fact that many ZZZ's report that XXX was YYY and that he thinks that it means is HISANALYSIS. I found 1 I gave you on your talk page and highly contested by Zeq here above. I don't have any argument to refuse to state that "ZZZ, a BLABLABLA, considers that HISANALYSIS" but we will have to discuss about BLABLABLA.

:::::What is "funny" here is that I think Peters is one of the most important reference to add, particularly because she is controversed and therefore balance the article : Peters, a highly critized journalist (source to this high criticism) considers that.

:::::My view of NPOV for controversial topics is to proceed that way as often as possible : ZZZ, a BLABLABLA, claims that HISANALYSIS. That is the fact. What it means, is not my concern (but it means whether XXX is wrong or is right or lies). The only think I can add to this is : ZZZ has been accused of lying by ZZZ2, a BLABLABLA2 or ZZZ's HISANALYSIS is discussed by ZZZ2, a BLABLABLA2. ZZZ's HISANALYSIS is shareb by ZZZ2, a BLABLABLA2.

Why can you not source the point you want to add to the article (or the quotation you want to use) to a good scholarly publication. That's the question. --] 11:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

:You admitted yourself the scholar quality of the first 2 ones. Now how would you summarize the point claimed by these 9 men ? ] 08:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

::Not quite. Elpeleg is obviously fine and the only person in your list who has done scholarly work on the mufti's life. It doesn't strengthen any claim you want to make to cite websites and self-published books. After all, if you insist on self-published sources all anyone has to do to dispute your conclusion is to publish a web page or to pay iUniverse to publish a book making their contrary claims. --] 12:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Ian, none of these is anyone. Absolutely none. Elpeled is fine perfect. And he is clear in his quote. I don't think I betray him. This is hte conclusion of a chapter. Arendt was at Eichmann's case at Nuremberg where all the connection about the Mufti were debated. Reference 4 is from a journalist who studied link between IBM and the Nazis regime. There is alos the "caricature" taken from New York Times of 16 May 1948. So once again I ask you : could you please summarize the idea behind all these quotes ? Please answer...

:::I went deeper into details after your comment about "my point". Pappé wrote in "La guerre en Palestine de 1948" p.158 about Abdallah's policy : ''"Une autre explication plausible de cette position est l’absence chez lui d’antisémitisme –ce qui le différenciait beaucoup de dirigeants arabes de l’époque– et une communauté d’intérêts avec les sionistes pour s’opposer au mouvement national palestinien"''. He wrote the forbidden word... Not about the Muti, no... right... just about "most arab dirigeants Abdallah excepted". And I am sure Laurens (French historian) wrote something that sounds like "a source of strength in sionism was in the fact they had the shoah in mind". (NB: Laurens is not controversial, he speaks and reads arab. He explains master plan and refers to khalidi but disagrees with this. Generally speaking he is quite careful.) ] 20:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you are letting this get too complex Christophe. If you think an important aspect of the mufti's career is missing from the article and you know a good source then just cite it. Having a large collection of dubious quotations just weakens the point. --] 22:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

:Today the point is that the Mufti is reported to be antisemitic by historians (historians, not "the" historians, like in 242) and this is widely spread among others and this should be gathered in an article that has a link in this one. ] 06:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

=== Results of nomination for deletion ===
*]

'''Text of close:'''<br/>
::<span style = "color:blue;">''The result of the debate was delete and merge. The current page is a fork, and not a likely search term, so it is not appropiate to retain it even as a redirect. The material may have a place in the parent article. To avoid any GFDL issues, this will be moved to a subpage Amin al-Husseini/anti-semitism (temporary). If and when the editors at Amin al-Husseini decide to incorporate this material, then decisions can be made regarding how to preserve the licence. If the consensus there is not to merge this material, the page can be deleted by leaving a note on my (or probably any other) adminstrator's talk. <br/>brenneman{T}{L} 03:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)''</span>

'''Order of events:'''<br/>
#"References about Haj Amin al-Husseini’s anti-semitism" moved to ]
#Talk:References about Haj Amin al-Husseini’s anti-semitism" moved to ]
#Both resulting redirects deleted.
#Contents of "Talk:Amin al-Husseini/anti-semitism (temporary)" copied below
#"Talk:Amin al-Husseini/anti-semitism (temporary)" redirected here.

'''Copied from "Talk:Amin al-Husseini/anti-semitism (temporary)":'''<br/>
::This page looks like a ] from ]. ] 18:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
:::Good evening. This article is not a pov fork of ] article. This articles is intended to gathers all references about Haj Amin al-Husseini's anti-semitism : whether they claim this or whether not. No matter. More this is not at all a copy of Haj Amin al-Hussein'es article where I am not involved at all. More it is particurlarly NPOV in introducing the comments and is extrelemy sourced and documented. So, could you argue why you consider it would be whether a pov fork ? Thank you. ] 19:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::::The very title of this article is a POV-fork. Not a single of these sources even describe him as an anti-semite. --] 19:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::In my country, the defense of the final solution or the extermination of the Jews is considered as an antisemitic's point of view. What title would you consider more appropriate ? ] 19:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::::I believe there is moderation of these issues going on over at the discussion page for ] in which you are involved. Perhaps it would be wise to simply continue your discussion over there. According to ] all sides of an issue must be discussed on a single page, therefore your creation of a page titled for one side of the controversy is POV regardless of content. ] 19:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
:::::The article doesn't gather references about the fact that he would be anti-semite but gathers all quotes that discuss his (assumed) antisemitism. As a consequence it doesn't at all concern one side of a dispute and the flag you put is not appropriate. Any editor is welcome to add in this article any well-referenced comment about Haj Amin al Husseini's anti-semitism, stating it is true or not. Thank you. ] 19:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::::::That may be or it may not be, but these issues should be discussed in one place, the page existing about this person. It is inappropriate to create a new page solely for that purpose. ] 20:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
:::::::What may be or may not be ? This is not clear in your comments ? If this is the choice of the flag, please argue about your choice for this. More, what forbids to write an article about a topic that is debated by historians in the different article than the article of the man debated about ? . ] 20:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::::::::I refer to your first sentence when I say ''That may be or it may not be''. As for your question of ''what forbids'' it is the most basic Misplaced Pages official policy, ] which states ''"The generally accepted policy is that all facts and majority Point of Views on a certain subject are treated in one article. "'' Further debate as to your intentions for the page are really beside the point. Unless a reason can be presented why this page is not on the same subject as ] I will nominate it for deletion.
:::::::::I am not sure[REDACTED] policy means threat as the one you do. Please argue and prove you don't defend a pov. As explained in the talk page of the article of Al Husseini, there is enough in that article about the man in question. This article deals with a very precise controversial topic which is of course linked to the main article but which doesn't deserve place in it. That is why it is referenced there (and only reference) and that the topic is developed in another chapter. So, there are 2 subjets.] 20:38, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::see ]'s talk page ] 07:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

'''Next steps:'''<br/>
Forks are bad, but support articles are good. If the consensus on this page is that this is valuable material, first attempt to integrate it. If there is too much high quality encyclopedic material to fit into this article ''then'' it can be split out. Conversly, if the consensus is that this material doesn not belong in this article, the subpage can be tagged for speedy deletion refering to the closed afd.<br/>
]]<span class="plainlinks"></span> 04:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

== next steps ==

* This cannot be deleted. That would be censorship of the claim of these people. Note of them can be censored. They all are notorious, some are even extremely highly reliable. Against all votes, I recommand this not to be merged and not to be deleted but to be annexed to the article with a reference leading to it. This for the global NPOV of the main article. And that was not fork ! ] 09:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

* ''']'''. Voting polarizes discussions and tends to lock the voters into positions prematurely. We first attempt to make decisions through discussion and compromise. You have some good thoughts but they should be explored more thoroughly before reaching a decision. I strongly urge you to withdraw this poll and continue the discussion about the appropriateness of this content in the encyclopedia. ] <small>]</small> 14:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

:done. ] 17:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

== discussion with Ian ==

I leave this at this point a few days and will come back latter. ] 11:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
::Ok Christophe, but I would like to emphasise once more that using a source such as Elpeleg or another scholar of note will enhance the credibility of the claim you want to make and of Misplaced Pages as a whole. --] 16:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
:::I am working on this. I agree with you it would be even better. From your side, could you please summarize what the relevant people quoted above such as Elpeled and Arendt mean about Mufti ? ] 17:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
::::I think you'll be able to find just the quotation you are looking for in Elpeleg. --] 18:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
:::::Their point is that the Mufti was antisemitic. The only question is to determine how relevant this can be. ] 06:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
::::::We don't have to interpret what scholars say Christophe - we can just quote them. Where they disagree we can describe the disagreement with reference to their works. We won't arrive at a balanced view by trawling publications - without any regard to the quality of those publications - in a an effort to find material to confirm one particular view. --] 09:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Hello Ian. You are not consistent :
:::::::*I have quoted them and only quoted them and you ask their point
:::::::*The quote are there so I ask '''you''' to give their point, you refuse to answer
:::::::*I give you their point, you say we can only quote.
:::::::In French, we would say "tu joues avec mes pieds" (you play with my feet). Please, be consistent and answer the following questions :
:::::::3 questions so :
:::::::*Do you disagree that the point they underline is that Mufti was antisemite ?
:::::::*If so, what is their (common) point ?
:::::::*Do you have more information about this topic (Elvpelg's quote ?) ?
:::::::] 11:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I'll make this my final comment as I think this is a waste of time. None of the quotations you mention calls the mufti an anti-semite. I can't find the term in Mattar or Elpeleg. I don't know whether the mufti was an anti-semite or just an opponent of Zionist ambitions in Palestine. With regard to the quotations. '''Arendt''': gives no source for her claim, but I don't see why it shouldn't be cited as her unsourced opinion.''' Elepeleg''': also gives no source for his claim, which is ''strange'' given that he says the were "many comments .. that he was very pleased by the Nazis' Final Solution". '''Reich''': There's an alternative account of this meeting in which Hitler is reported to have said that at the moment of Arab liberation "Germany had no interest there other than the destruction of the power protecting the Jews", not "Germany's objective ...solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere." '''Wiesenthal Centre''': self-published website with claims not verified by scholars. '''Black''': Unsourced book review. '''Pearlman''': propaganda tract by Haganah spokesman/IDF Lt. Col. in the IDF that you haven't actually consulted and is full of inaccuracies. '''Peters''' (but actually Farah): Elpeleg sources the same quotation to the ''New York Times'' 31 Jan 1946, but it isn't there. '''Morse''': self-published book by talk show host; '''Carlson''': self-published book. --] 21:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
: As well as NYT, Elpeleg cites the book of Hirszowicz, pp322-3, but those two pages are occupied by a map. It could be that the page numbers refer to the Hebrew edition of Hirszowicz. I'll look around in the book for this quotation. --] 23:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
::Ian. You don't answer my questions unless you say : all were liars or wrong. Very ironically, may I create an article named : the widely spread ideas around alleged Mufti's antisemitism ? I agree and if so we can proceed to a vote. (I am ironique but serious).
::Less ironically I will ask for mediation to see how to go forward.
::Today, the only think on which I refuse to negociate is to claim that the promotion of a final solution would not be antisemitism. ] 16:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Christophe, you're aware that self-published material and original research can't appear in Misplaced Pages. Your priority should be to delete this material from the French version of the article. --] 17:44, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
:::I asked 2 mediators to intervene in our different. You are not aware that the way of working is different on French and English wikipedias. There people are more constructive. There are far less conflicts. I have already answered the point concerning self-published. About original research this is not the case here. The quotes are not from me. Concerning lessons, you should think about the high relativity of the notion of "truth" you think to be a defender of. ] 20:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to seem obtuse, but could Ian or Zero explain (from their point of view) what the specific issue is? Is there a paragraph, sentence, or phrase that someone wishes to add to/delete from this article? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 21:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
::Christophe wants to introduce a large number of quotations to the article - some very poorly sourced - to support the claim that the mufti was anti-semitic. As I have said above I have no idea whether the claim can be sustained, but the introduction of material from unencyclopedic sources that don't even mention the word "anti-semitic" is not going to help. Elpeleg is a perfectly good source. Why will that not do? --] 22:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
:::I don't want to introduce the quotations in the article but in another article we could reach from this one.
:::The point I claim is not that the Mufti was antisemite but he is widely claimed to be antisemite ...widely...
:::About antisetism, I am tired with you attitude. I asked you to tell me how to summarize the point of the 9 people. You refused to answer while I asked several time. From my ponit of veiw promoting A final solution is antisemitic. It is not the case ? Well. Could you please help me and tell me what word that would caracterize a man who is claimed to have said or done what is reported by these nine people, whatever true or not, one step at a time.
:::The sources are good. It is rather your claims about the poorness (is this English) that are poor.

:::Here is why, author by author :
:::*Arendt was Professor at Princeton Universtity and the studied the Eichmann case at Nuremberg when the Mufti connection with Nazi regime were "discovered". She knows this topic better than us and the quote cannot be misinterpretated, can it ?
:::*Reich, is a reliable source. and knows the topic. If there is an alternative account of that meeting, it has to be introduced in the article but with references. What are you references ?
:::*] is a self published book. Are you sure ? I see an editor and I doubt that the summary you make about him is "npov" when I read the[REDACTED] article about him. He received the Pulitzer price for this book (among many other prizes and I don't see anywhere he is controversed). With his many publications on the topic, he can be considered as an expert on the topic, even if not an historian. Do you have more information about him ?
:::*This was for the scholars.
:::*2 are "only" notorious and cannot be censored. That is my point here. The claims are so widely spread that even these guys know this. ] and ], candidate for the Congress...
:::*2 are "controversed" : Pearlman (historian close to Ben Gourion) and ] and that is why it must be clearly pointed out they are controversed. I did so. So what do you want to add about that ? As I told you Benny Morris also is controversed. And I would say, even more than these both guys after stating what I summarize that "Muslims are barbarians". Why don't we remove all quotes from Morris ?
:::*About Pearlman, could you provide the scholarly sources indicating that his work was not accurate or honnest ? I also think to add Schetchman, precising who he was of course but simply because he is referring to what he calls the "historiographic work" of Schetchman...
:::*1 is neutral, Carlson, I don't know him, no more that I know you, but he quotes ] that you know very well to have written the wikipedian article about him... He is not a admirer of Ben Gourion I think. May we deduce from this he is should at least be neutral about Mufti

:::Please note I will not be on the internet before sunday maybe saturday ] 00:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Just a sidenote as I don't really want to get involved in the conflict this moment, I think it is wrong for people to always say various versions of[REDACTED] are better than the English one just because there are more conflicts here, I feel that this is probably because most versions have a much more homogeneous group of people editing than the English version, so there are likely to be many less POVs expressed, I would argue that this is more of a negative than a positive.- ] | ] 11:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

:Christophe, if the sources don't actually describe him as an antisemite, then Misplaced Pages cannot do so; using a bunch of quotations to "prove" he is an antisemite is ]. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 20:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Christophe, Jay make s agood point. First I am sure you can find sources that decsribe him as anysemite, second you can just say he made calls to kill the jews and incited ] against the jews.

You should also look at ] how quotes that Jewish leaders say in the 30s were used to create the total Original resarch conclusion that thesecalls about th need to increase jewish majority caused the Palestinians to run away when their armies started to loose the war . What I am trying to say that some original research does find it';s way into[REDACTED] articles despite the OR policy and against the NPOV policy so maybe whet you learn here you can also apply there. ] 13:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

===Hopefully my final reply to Christophe===

Christophe, I would have thought my comments above were sufficiently detailed not to have to respond again. However, I will genuinely try to make this my last comment. Firstly, self-published books cannot be cited or quoted in Misplaced Pages per ]. I've referred you to this policy several times without result or response. The books by '''Morse''' and '''Carlson''' are self-published and cannot be used. Secondly, you should cite '''your sources''' per ], not the source that a book review or a web page claims is the source, e.g., you don't cite Peters if your source is an article on a web page claiming to cite Peters; you don't cite Pearlman if your source is a website. All you have in these cases is one bad source for another bad source. Thirdly, you can't include original research in the article per ]. It doesn't matter whether you or I think that the mufti supported the Final Solution and was therefore anti-semitic. Reliable sources have to state this unequivocally, preferably with clear evidence in support so that their conclusions can be checked against those of other writers. This is what scholars do. As for Black, see above, I didn't say his book was self-published, but his piece is just an article about his book. Why would anyone use such a poor source to support a major historical claim? Don't you think reliable historians might have something to say about the matter? As for Arendt, I said that I don't see why you shouldn't quote her, but she did no research on the mufti and doesn't support her claim with any evidence. Using sources like that just makes the claim look weak rather than widely supported. With reference to the material from Reich, David Yisrael says that the statement made by Hitler on ], 1941 was that at the moment of Arab liberation "Germany had no interest there other than the destruction of the power protecting the Jews" (''die Vernichtung der das Judentum protegierenden Macht'') (Yisraeli, David ''The Palestine Problem in German Politics, 1889-1945'' p. 310 quoted in Browning, Christopher R. (2004). ''The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942''. University of Nebraska Press. ISBN 0803213271 p. 539). --] 11:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

: That's a very interesting find about the Hitler statement. So there were at least three accounts of what Hitler said. The most well-known one (quoted in this article) was made by Hitler's translator Schmidt. The full sentence from Schmidt is "Das deutsche Ziel würde dann lediglich die Vernichtung des im arabischen Raum unter der Protektion der britischen Macht lebenden Judentums sein.", of which the translation given in ''Documents on German Foreign Policy'' is "Germany's only objective would then be solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere under the protection of British power." The account you mention was apparently made by Fritz Grobba. The third is the diary of our friend al-Husayni. For this I don't have a good source at all, but our other friend Joan Peters claims it says "annihilate the power that brings the Jews" (TFI, p438), which is nearly the same as Grobba's version. So, assuming Joan Peters can be confirmed, there are two votes for the Brits being the target of the Vernichtung and one vote for the "Jewish element" being the target. Btw, some time ago I uploaded a ] of the meeting but it does not mention this statement. --] 13:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

=== answer to Ian - 18.3.06 ===

Hello Ian. I agree with the rules you remind but not to the way you link them to the topic.

You write I didn’t answer you on these points. I think I did but not on the “juridical” point of view. I tried to explain you that they didn't concern the topic here. If you want to place this on the juridical’s point of view, the discussion risk to be long. That is not a problem.

You used the work “genuinely”. I read the exact translation in “Robert & Collins” dictionary. That is exactly the word I was looking for. I suggest we try to understand each other’s point genuinely.

So, please, agree a few time to follow my reasoning and try to understand my point instead of hiding behing rules that does apply of course but not the link you made between them and this case.

You don’t understand me : I don’t want to introduce a '''quote''' stating the Mufti was anti-Semitic because my point is not that the Mufti was anti-Semitic. (my point is not either that the Mufit was not anti-Semitic). I want to introduce and develop an '''article''' about the '''Mufti reputation of anti-Semitism'''.

See answer to Jayjg below.

=== (digression) answer to Moshe-Constantine-Hassan-Al-Silverberg ===

Hello. I didn’t mean that English[REDACTED] was better or worse that another one. Ian had written me just above that I should care to remove this npov material form the French wikipedia. Which is a criticism of the French[REDACTED] and the way it works. I therefore defended the way we work there where editors (with whom I work) give arguments pro and contra each topic. Another solution is that some editors give arguments pro and other contra. I don’t say this is the case on the English wikipedia. I say I have the feeling this the way Ian works with me.

The difference between the two wikipedias (and I assume all others) is really interesting but would deserve another talk’s page and not this one. I am interested by such thought about “different factual work methods based on the same founding principles” (not good translation of “différents methods de travail dans les faits basées pourtant sur les mêmes principes fondateurs”.

=== Answer to Jayjg ===

I didn’t answer Ian’s last comments but we know we are blocked in that direction. Jayjg underlines a common point with Ian so I answer him but will answer Ian if he requests (But would prefer he doesn’t request we enter the "juridictionnal" aspect now.

Jayjg : ''Christophe, if the sources don't actually describe him as an antisemite, then Misplaced Pages cannot do so; using a bunch of quotations to "prove" he is an antisemite is original research’’

In fact you tackle 3 points :

1. the purpose is to “prove” Mufti is antisemite

2. the sources would not describe him as an antisemite

3. a bunch of quotation is an original reasearch.

===== 1. Purpose =====

My point is not at all to prove he would be an antisemite. Whatever true or not, the antisemitism he would be or would not be is not important.

Even if Mufti was or would have been antisemite there is no evidence than this influenced his policy. I would say that this is rather his policy that influenced his antisemitism.

See the answer to question 3 to see my point.

===== 2. Sources would not describe him as an antisemite =====

I thought about your point. I can understand this in a unique sense : we must be as precise as possible in the report we make about somebody. So, if the word antisemite doesn’t appear we cannot qualify him as such.

Not agreeing that the allegations gathered here against the Mufti are not allegations of antisemitism need to take a great distance with the subjet. I warned people 2 times that I didn’t want to go in that direction.

Here is my comments and questions then :

* 2.1 I understand your point by the need of taking “distance”. Do you have arguments to explain me how promoting “a final solution” or being pleased by this is *not* antisemitism ? And this just to take the 1st two quotes and to keep cool. Because there is also the following : the support of ‘’mass murder of Jews’’, implication of ‘’atrocities against Jews’’, ‘’shipment of Jews to the gas chambers of Poland’’, ‘’killing the jews wherever they are found’’, … (see point 2.3 before answering)

*2.2 If the allegations are not allegations of antisemitism could you please tell me how to summarize this in one word or a npov way because I don’t see how. (see point 2.3)

*2.3 To try that we don’t take that direction, we can discuss rather if yes or not the mind of this scholar is relevant so that[REDACTED] could talk about eg the ''Mufti’s reputation of antisemitism'' (without commenting about the truth or not of this reputation) :
:’’Jews had been further angered by the United Kingdom’s intervention in behalf of the mufti of Jerusalem, the anti-Semitic and Pro-Nazi Arab leader who had been charged with war crimes by the Allies”, Randall Bennet Woods, ‘’A changing of the Gard : Anglo-American relations, 1941-1946’’, UNC Press, 1990. ISBN : 0807818771. He is is Professor at the History Department at the Arkansas University

===== bunch of quotation and original research =====

I started by first two topics where I am quite confident of my position.
Here I am more cautious. I still have some wonderings about this.

Without doubt, the interdiction of original research means that people cannot develop their own analyses or thesis in wikipedia. Without doubt, this doesn’t mean that we cannot gathers information on a subject which is the basis of each article of[REDACTED] with the opportunity to see this information grow and the topic develop itself. Where are we in between ???

Another aspect is that an article need a point (even if many others don’t have either, eg all those concerning that are lists). I think this should need a point because people try to put one on it where I didn't personnaly put none yet. I have several ones but I don’t know how to gather all them a npov-way and I think there are not developed enough yet. To develop them the article should be introduced in[REDACTED] so that contributors could read this and contribute to its development (instead of discussing toom much).

There are different points developed around his reputation :
* 1a. In her study on the impact of the Holocaust on Israel society, Idith Zerthal (Israel Holocaust and the politics of Nationhood, p.175) explains the role of Mufti Demonization. Without saying accusations were true or not, she talks about (p.100) the “massive references (…) to the Nazi like intentions of Arab leaders” and only points out the Mufti as such. At the same page, she also reports a journalist linking “the put at the disposal of the natinalist arab leaders of the nazi antisemitism and arab leaders
* 1b. Finkelstein talks about “the starring role” of the Mufti in the “Holocaust secondary litterature” (Holocaust industry p.62). He is also the only one to not to deny but to question about the reality of this “central position of the Mufti in Hitler Final solution”.
*1c. A third approach : in her filmography study about Holocaust, Annette Insdorf (Prof at Columbia University) studies the way Holocaust is treated in films. Concerning the exodus she specifically points out that “Exodus insists on the connections between Nazi and Arab antisemitism. She precises that in the film "the Grand Mufti’s urbane emissary tells Taha (…) that they must destroy the Jews".
* 2a. Pappé, in his book about the war of Palestine in 1948, explains the “opening” of King Abdallah towards Zionism because at the contrary of other Arab leaders, he was not an antisemitic. (Note he doesn’t talk specifically of the Mufti but on a more general point of view).
* 2b. This reputation (obviously) impacted the “fear of extermination” of Jews in 1948, (this fear and his consequences is analysed by Laurens (a French historian) in his book “Paix et Guerre au Moyen-Orient” (Peace and War in the Middle-East). Kathleen Christison talks also about this “fear of extermination” and its link with the Mufti (without precising antisemitism but only link with Nazism). This 2b should be more developed.
*3 Schetchman and Pearlman point of view should -by a way or another- introduced too given it seems they were among the first to report about this and contributed to create this.

] 15:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

== break ==

I will not have time to go on the discussion on this topic in the following days. Anyway there lack a "good reason" to gather these quotes (that are perfectly sourced). As it is today, this is "personnal research". As I don't consider the Mufti's antisemitism is relevant enough in his action I will not introduced this in his article. On the other way; the way his antisemitism was (and still is today) dealt by (first) Israelis is central for israeli society. This should be treated another way. ] 15:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

== 1st paragraph ==

The opening paragraph was arrived after a long mediation.

There are many facts about his life that are NOT mentioned and those can be mentioned in the other section of the article.

Aladain - please restore the 1st section to what it was and add any additional info to the appropriate section. Thanks, ] 16:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

:I have not edited this article for about a month, and was not aware that the matter of the introductory paragraph was referred to ].

:Before I restored the Islamic World Congress mention, which was in the article as recently as March 8, I searched the article to see if it was moved to the body somewhere, which I doubt I would have objected to. Since it was deleted altogether, and no arguments in Talk suggested it was incorrect, I restored it to where it was, the intro. It seems all right there, but if someone thinks it belongs elsewhere, well let them suggest where. What I don't get, is why it was deleted. Is it factually incorrect? Was he ''not'' the president of the WIC, in fact its founder?

:I will describe the replacement of the word ''collaborated'' with ''cooperated'' up in the subsection "Proposal for vote #3", as that is exactly where the discussion left off.--] 16:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

No. We had an agreement. and colaborated is the correct word. ] 18:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

:You are mistaken. We had no such agreement. You must have me confused with another editor. I will repeat what I said above in the proposal 3 section, regarding collaboration: "Collaborated" is a ]. I looked it up in the dictionary, and one of the given meanings is: "cooperate traitorously with an enemy." It is POV to suggest that Husayni's cooperation with the declared enemy of the mandatory power, Great Britain, was "collaboration", i.e. traitorous, or that Germany was Palestine's enemy, just because Britain was the mandatory power. I have replaced ''collaborated'' with ''cooperated''. Anyway why are we arguing, the edit has been accepted. As for what you added regarding "Met with Hitler", I am removing that, because it is mentioned in the body. The intro paragraph should only summarize. "met with hitler" comes under "cooperated with Nazi Germany". As for moving the sentence about the World Islamic Congress, that's fine with me. I wonder why it was deleted to begin with, instead of moved.--] 21:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

This is fine. Do we have an agreement now ? ] 21:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

:Yes. --] 21:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

== Oil ==

I once read something about how the reason the British didn't indict him as a war criminal is because of his influence in the control of oil in Egypt.

== new study ==

http://www.ejpress.org/article/7448 ] 04:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

any one adding this to the article ? ] 06:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

more sources: http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Haj_Amin_El_Husseini.htm ] 09:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

== published paper about anti-semitism in the arab's world and talking about Mufti ==

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-kuntzel-s05.htm

(no time to read this carefully - seems sourced) ] 21:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

== circular reference : how to feed propaganda ==

I bear your attention to the 2nd link given in the artice (in the beginning):
This refers to... the article about Mufti from the en version of[REDACTED] :-)
It also referts to Schetchman.
I highly suggests we remove this... ] 20:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

== another source ==

http://www.judeoscope.ca/breve.php3?id_breve=1226

== anti semitism ==

I don't mind this quarrel any more but I want to underline that in the reference I give just 2 posts above, an historian clearly states that Mufti was "antisemitic". In one of the refences given in your edit war, there is also one that clearly specifies this information too as coming from historians. Both sources are different (except that from work published in Germany). I think this should close the case.

I think that the minimum that could be written is :

''Haj Amin al-Husseini is considered as antisemite by several historians and commentators who studied Nazism and arabs connections'' and to refer to some of them. We will never know if it is true but at least this is what is considered such.

Good luck... ] 23:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
::Or to be precise a number of US Jewish magazines and right-wing news sources claim that a book published in Germany includes that claim. --] 07:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:::last time I checked AFP was not "jewish" or "US" :-) but thanks Ian for sharing your bias with us. ] 08:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:::This is US jewish magazine but why do you think it is biaised ? Should we get rid of the "journal of palestinian studies" ? For the one given by Zeq , why do you say this is right-wing news sources ? ] 08:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

=== Ian's arguments ===

After carefully reading Ian's arguments (first that the sources do not include the text, later that the sources are "jewish" and "US right wing") I concluded that there is no good reason not to include the info from the academic sources. The two researchers are exprets in their area, they speak the languge and the direct quotes from their book are given both by AFP and DPA (French and German news agenceies) ] 09:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:I agree with you. I still think that Mufti's antisemitism was historically anecdotical and so hope it will not cover pages and pages of other articles but it should (here) be clearly specified given it is supported by academicians sources. I think this case is closed. Maybe you could organise a discussion between editors of this article that would be sanctionned to prevent useless edit wars. Why not ask also Fred Bauder to give his mind regarding this source ? He is aware of the matter. Please have both in mind the same topic led of you in front of the ArbCom 3 months ago. ] 10:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
::ArbCom said to use academic sources. These are the source used this time. ] 10:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Indeed, you both agree because you don't understand that citing a report of a book is not the same as citing the book. I find this inexplicable. Somehow you seem to believe that news sources only ever produce accurate reports, even when they disagree! --] 10:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

::::Ian, if you think AFP and DPA are wrong this would be your 3rd wrong argument:
#First, you claimed that the info is not in th source (although it clearly spelled-out in the source)
#Next, you claimed the source to be "Jewish" and "right wing US" 9although the source is German and French)
#Now, you claim the sources are wrong.

You need to learn to accept ] and ] and off course always ]. If you have valid arguments of course we will always listen to you since we enjoy hearing what you have to say.

] 10:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

:::::Ian now claimed that results of the mediation give him the right for th edit war he wages here. Well, I have informed the mediator and on this talk page when the <b> new book from an academic source </b> has been published and I ask Ian politly to restore the lead paragrpah to the consensus on this talk page. You are now using a 4th argument so I wonder what would be the 5th ? ] 10:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

== AFP report ==

STUTTGART, Germany (Agence France-Presse) — The Nazis developed plans to slaughter half a million Jews who fled to Palestine during the Holocaust, according to a new study presented yesterday.
A research team from Stuttgart University in southern Germany found evidence that the Nazi occupiers in Athens established a military unit ready to wipe out the Jews who had escaped the systematic genocide in Europe.
The troops were under the command of German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel’s Afrikakorps during World War II.
Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cueppers of Stuttgart University based their research on three years’ study of German wartime records, notably from the Foreign Ministry and the military archive in the western city of Freiburg.
The historians said in their new book, “Germans, Jews, Genocide — The Holocaust as History and Present,” that only Rommel’s defeat in 1942 in Egypt by the British prevented the spread of the Holocaust to Palestine.
If Rommel’s army had defeated his enemy, General Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery’s troops and made it to Palestine, the unit would have received orders to slay all 500,000 Jews there.
The units were to work like the task forces that exterminated hundreds of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe.
The authors said the Nazis were counting on the Palestinians to assist in the plan because of their traditionally good ties with the Germans.
”The grand mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was the most important collaborator with the Nazis on the Arab side and an uncompromising anti-Semite,” they said.
”He showed what a decisive role hatred of Jews played in the project to promote German-Arab understanding.”
They said that Sheik al-Husseini held several meetings with Adolf Eichmann, the man who organized the logistics of the Holocaust for the Nazis.
”The history of the Middle East would have been completely different and a Jewish state would never have been founded if the plan by the Germans and Arabs had been implemented,” Mr. Mallmann said.
An estimated 6 million European Jews were killed under the Nazis’ “Final Solution.”


] 09:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

== DPA Report ==

DPA is German news agency

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=26&story_id=29259&name=Nazis+planned+Holocaust+in+Palestine%3A+historians

Nazis planned Holocaust in Palestine: historians
12 April 2006

STUTTGART, GERMANY - The Nazis made plans to conduct a Holocaust of Jews living in Palestine during the Second World War, according to German historians who have examined secret archives.

The Nazis stationed a unit of ruthless troops in the Greek capital Athens with the task of landing in Palestine and murdering about 500,000 European Jews who had taken refuge there, the historians at the University of Stuttgart said Wednesday. But it never deployed.

The rapid-deployment unit was answerable to the Afrika Korps, the German army in North Africa headed by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel.

Klaus Michael Mallmann of the University's Ludwigsburg research team and his assistant
Martin Cueppers said they had spent three years studying German wartime archives including those at the Foreign Office in Berlin.

The Allied defeat of Rommel at the end of 1942 had prevented the extension of the Holocaust to Palestine, they said. If Rommel had beaten the Allies in the desert and invaded Egypt, a push into Palestine would have followed and the unit would have deployed there.

The researchers, whose findings appear in a new book entitled Germans, Jews, Genocide, said the Athens unit was intended to operate like Nazi units that hunted for Jews in eastern Europe and either massacred them or sent them to the Nazi death camps.

Mallmann and Cueppers said the Nazis had planned to exploit Arab friendship for their plans.

"The most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem," they said in the book. He was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews.

Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann, Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust, to settle details of the slaughter.
] 09:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

:The most important thing to point out is that you haven't consulted the source, a book published in German. What you do have is three sources, the third of which is nothing to do with the book in question, but discusses material in the British National Archives. Looking at the "sources" one by one:
::* This says only that ""The most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem," they said in the book. He was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews. Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann, Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust, to settle details of the slaughter.
::* says " They said that Sheik al-Husseini held several meetings with Adolf Eichmann, the man who organized the logistics of the Holocaust for the Nazis."
::* Is not about this story.
:1. and 2. have different stories. 1. says that Husseini was a collaborator of the Nazis, which has always been known and is detailed in the article. 2. says that Eichmann organised the logisitcs of the Holocaust, which again is not new information. Overall, there's nothing new here to include in the article, but the "sources" try to make it sound as though there is. Good propaganda. --] 10:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

::Ian, read the sources again. These are direct quotes from an academic source. Both sources use the same quote. ] 10:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:::They aren't direct quotations because the book is in German, and clearly they don't say the same thing either as they are reproduced above. --] 10:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

::::Is there an english problem ? if so I am the wrong person to help you. My english is limited but this is what I read:
::::<blockquote> Mallmann and Cueppers said the Nazis had planned to exploit Arab friendship for their plans.<b>"The most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem," they said in the book. He was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews.</b> Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann, Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust, to settle details of the slaughter.</blockquote>] 10:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

== answer to Ian ==

Indeed, you both agree because you don't understand that citing a report of a book is not the same as citing the book. I find this inexplicable. Somehow you seem to believe that news sources only ever produce accurate reports, even when they disagree! --Ian Pitchford 10:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

:I perfectly understand and I am sure Zeq too.
:Zeq provided you academic sources stating that the Mufti was antisemite. Nothing prooves of course that what they says is true. Facts are lacking. For example to be an antisemite, somebody should "promote some kind of final solution in the Middle East", as writes Mattar or Arendt concerning the same man.
:It is a pity that all our recent discussions showed that you had a "strange" reading of academic sources, Ian as illustrated , or the NPOV and the variable level of criticism you have depending of the point of view introduced .
:I cannot interact good in the en.wikipedia due to English. I think you should take more into account some potential bias that seem to influence you unfortunately ] 12:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

::Wait I don't understand, are you suggesting that to be an anti-semite one would have to propose a "final solution" for the Jews? I don't see how that makes any sense, there are a myriad of well-known anti-semites who never publicly advocated the murder of Jews, just like most slave owners in the 19th century American south never advocated the wholesale murder of all Black slaves, but they would obviously still "qualify" as rascists.- ] | ] 12:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

:::I say that if somebody promote some kind of final solution in the middle east, he is an antisemite but many contributors didn't agree some weeks ago and claimend that to write that somebody is antisemite academicians must have written this. ] 09:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

::::Now they did. They also provided clear description how is was involved. Ian, I think you failed to convince anyone here . ] 10:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::No, they don't and in fact doesn't mention any involvement by Husayni and doesn't mention him at all. I've also pointed out twice now that not only has nothing to do with the German book, but doesn't mention Husayni either, i.e., three of the four sources you have added provide no new information specifically about Husayni and two of them contradict each other. Finally, the introduction was agreed after weeks of mediation at your request. If Husayni was anti-semitic it's hardly what he was most known for. Even the first paragraph of the article on ] doesn't include such a reference. --] 10:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Ian, You have removed sourcec content that you claim does not mention Husseieni <b> but it does mention him - please read the sources </b> This is no longer a content dispute. Since I assume you are operating in good fate I have no explnation to your behaviour. ] 11:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
::The introduction should stay as agreed during mediation. If you have material specifically about Husayni then add it to the appropriate section. --] 16:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

:::No. New information which bring new academic source onm the person can cause us to change the intro. You have used five different arguments to avoid this change. Do you have a real argumnt or we conclude that th consensus here is to chanmge the intro based on the new research. ] 18:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:::# There is no new information about Al-Husayni in the study you are referring to. It refers to recent documents which show German plans, not Palestinian. Its focus is not at all at Al-Husayni, at least according to the sources you've provided. The novel argument is not about the mufti.
:::# That they mention Al-Husayni as a collaborator with the Germans is hardly a new fact, and the article already has plenty, and much more detailed, information related to that relationship. Simply no need to include this in the intro.
:::#That these German scholars refer to Al-Husayni as an anti-semite hardly makes it a fact, and their description alone is not worth including, especially not in the introduction.
:::#Don't refer to studies unless you have read them or are familiar with their content.
:::#The introduction has been reached through a careful compromise and weeks of mediating, don't insert value-laden descriptions to push a POV.
:::#If you want to include this information somewhere on Misplaced Pages, get hold of the study and find or create an article which deals with Nazi plans for Palestine. --] 18:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

::::The sources totaly disagree with you. read them. they are just above here on the talk page. ] 19:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Even your detailed rebuttal aside, I remain unconvinced (and it was just my two first points that were related to the information in the sources.). But you've yet again demonstrated your lack of familiarity with them. --] 07:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

::::::Aside from PA do you have any other argument that fit the sources quoted above and in the article itself ? ] 08:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

==== Answer to Cybe (in case you missed the sources above) ====

<blockquote> "Mallmann and Cueppers said the Nazis had planned to exploit Arab friendship for their plans."The most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem," they said in the book. He was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews. Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann, Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust, to settle details of the slaughter." </blockquote>

This is a quote froma secondary source (DPA, AFP) quoting the primary source (an Academic book) - prefect source for Misplaced Pages per ] and ]. If you have a different quote let's hear it..... ] 08:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

:And here's your other source, which does not make that claim:
::They said that Sheik al-Husseini held several meetings with Adolf Eichmann, the man who organized the logistics of the Holocaust for the Nazis.
:As you haven't consulted the German book you don't know which of them is accurate and you don't have an academic source to support the claim. --] 09:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)



:::Ian, just 24 hours ago you claimed that the source <b> you quote above </b> <u>does not mention the Mufti involvment at all </u>.
:::Now you claim that that source does not include the quote (about antisemitism) from the book .

:::The fact is that even the source you quote <u>include the same quote from the <b> academic </b>book</u>:

:::<blockquote> " "The grand mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was the most important collaborator with the Nazis on the Arab side and an <u>uncompromising anti-Semite</u>," they said. "He showed what a decisive role hatred of Jews played in the project to promote German-Arab understanding." They said that Sheik al-Husseini held several meetings with Adolf Eichmann, the man who organized the logistics of the Holocaust for the Nazis. "The history of the Middle East would have been completely different and a Jewish state would never have been founded if the plan by the Germans and Arabs had been implemented," Mr. Mallmann said. An estimated 6 million European Jews were killed under the Nazis' "Final Solution." ? </blockquote>

:::I have been patiant with you removal of sourced content. should you proceed with it I will take all the steps needed to correct your behaviour.
:::*My suggestion: self rvert your own edit war. ] 09:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I think you are probably having problems with the English. The first source says that Husseini met with Eichmann to "settle the details of the slaughter"; the second only that he had meetings with Eichmann "the man who organized the logistics of the Holocaust". These are completely different claims. --] 09:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

:::::* No, no problem with english. The sources are clear: Please revert your edit war. ] 09:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::You don't understand the difference between meeting someone to plan a slaughter and meeting someone who planned a slaughter? --] 10:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

::::::::Ian, My english <b>is not </b> the subject of this article or this discussion.
::::::::The only issue that we should all focus is : What do the sources say ?
::::::::The sources are clear. that all I can tell you. read the sources instead of reverting. 10:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::Do you understand the question? How are the sources clear when two of them don't mention Husseini at all and one only says that he met Eichmann? --] 10:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:Again, that Al-Husayni collaborated with Nazi authorities is not at all new, and that you've found yet at source for it should not change the introduction of this article. The major finding in the study (which you keep referring to but haven't read) was German plans for the Jews in Palestine, not old news about Al-Husayni. And I must remind you, Al-Husayni was never a member of the RSHA, and if of course not responsible for their planning, nor do any of the sources you've provided make such a claim. And if you'd like to include something about a meeting with Eichmann, you certainly should have more than the one sentence, where context is left out, to base it on. And please stop entering all new information you find in the introduction of the article, where it in any case don't belong.--] 19:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

::::::::::Cybe: Just read the sources. I can say to you more than they say and they say different than what you argue here. Clearly they present new info. ] 19:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
:Do they present ''new and relevant'' information about the mufti? The edit you're trying to include is 1) about German plans for Palestine, i.e. not about the mufti. 2) Old information already known and reflected in the article, and, of course, 3) the word you've tried to include since you started editing this article, anti-semite (which never can amount to a historical fact and is an old claim). There is no basis for including the quotation, and in any case, not in the introduction. You fail to address any of these issues. --] 19:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

::This is already addressed here and in the source text itself. ] 19:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Your fail to address any of my points. Discussing with you is futile. --] 17:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

::::No Cybee it is you who fail to listen. I don't have to "prove" anything. The sources, as well as wikipdia policies is all that you need to look at. Your question were answered before but you refuse to accept the sources , instead, you make claims such as "there is nothing new in the new sources" while the academic researcher them self address exactly this point and explain what is new in their findings. So I suggest you listen instead of accusing others. ] 17:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

== Husseini was a Nazi war criminal and died in exile because of it ==

I think the 1st paragraph is light in it's description of this monster. He met with Hitler, was involved with training "Nazi scouts" around the middle east and parts of Europe (Bosnia). He was a convicted Nazi war criminal and died in exile in Egypt because of this, I believe that should be mentioned in the 1st paragraph. unsigned comment

==Problems with Zeq's changes to the introduction==
These are the four articles Zeq is adding to the introduction and the problems I see with them:
* - This article reports on a book published in German by Mallmann and Cueppers and claims that "Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann, Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust, to settle details of the slaughter." This claim isn't explcitly sourced to the book and other reports of the same study don't mention it,

::It does sourced to the academic sources and the DPA and AFP reports clearly say that it is in the Book ] 13:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

e.g.:
* - This report in the ''Washington Times'' claims only that "They said that Sheik al-Husseini held several meetings with Adolf Eichmann, the man who organized the logistics of the Holocaust for the Nazis." This is a claim that has been made many times before and might well be true, though others say that Husseini met Eichmann only once, at a social gathering. Eichmann himself said at his trial that he didn't meet Husseini. However, the point is that this report on the German book does not claim that it includes new evidence on a role for Husseini in planning "details of the slaughter". If the book does indeed make that claim then it's a major historical discovery and should be included in the article in due course. I'm not clear from the news reports that this is the claim being made and given the lack of coverage of what would be a major story I am skeptical. Unfortunately I don't read German. However, I have asked Professor Mallmann to let me know if there is a summary of his findings in English.

::I have put in the article a quote from the sources. that is all. don't argue with me . It is good you contacted the source. However waht we rely on is the publication not hearsay. ] 13:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

* - I've pointed out to Zeq many times now that this article is not about the German study and doesn't mention Husseini at all.

::Other sources do mention him so what is your point ? That I placed 4 sources about the coopration but only 3 mention him by Name ? Do you ignore him being mention in these other 3 just because the 4th article does not mention him ?

* - I've also pointed out to Zeq that although this article refers to the German study it doesn't mention Husseini.
I would also like to emphasize that the introduction Zeq has changed was the one he insisted on during (see above) he requested. --] 11:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

::See below, the source you mention explain why this is new information (academic source that was not available before). In any case I would agree to mediation based on the new source. ] 13:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

:The fact is that Zeq provided you "quotes" cleary specifying that Husseini was antisemite. Point. If we should prevent the introduction of material due to the fact people sometimes make mistake you would be the first to be banned from[REDACTED] due to the several times I caught you not reporting fairly historians. The analysis of the facts on which they base their claim is not our matter except when their are doubt it is not clear.

:I have been requesting you to find a mediator for more than 4 weeks. Please, respect the rules of wikipedia. ] 11:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::Please address the specific points raised and refrain from personal attacks. --] 11:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Ian, I have never attacked you and I have answered all your questions just above. ] 14:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

::::The point concerning personnal attacks was for me not for you :-) ] 20:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

== New information ==

Ian,

#The additions made to the article intro are based on new information. I have informed the mediator several weeks ago on my intenation to change the intro based on this info. I have also placed this new information on talk for several weeks.
#"Regarding the question why this is emerging 61 years after the end of World War Two, Mallmann and Cueppers said <u>they simply unearthed something other historians had not found yet</u>."
#So for now, the new material will stay in the intro (it is well sourced relevant information) the source for the information is given and conform to ] and ].
#If you wish to file for mediation on the new additions. I am not sure what is there to be mediated but I will gladly accept any request to medaition if such a resuest will be filed by you.
#As for debating with you what the sources say or don't say this is not working well. I quote directly from the source and still you make claim that my english is bad.
#If you chang your claim (again) and raise something that comes from other relaible sources or some other claim that is based on the sources I will gladly listen.
#So far we seem to disagree on two issues:
* Was he an antisemite (according to the sources he was)
*Did he meet with Eichman (according to the sources he did)

Is there any source that make the claim that he was fond of the jews and he never met Eichamn ? If so I want to see that source. ] 13:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::You haven't answered the specific points I raised above and yet again you've cited an article that doesn't mention Husseini . If you don't want to request mediation I suggest that we stick to the introduction already mediated until you can find reliable sources for your claims. As far as I can see the only information in the book on which these articles agree is that it deals with "]". --] 14:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Ian,

I have answered your questions. More important I have posted info that fit the sources and explained that this is new info (in the source you just cited the author of the book sais so). Surly you <b> MUST </b> understand what is editing:
Not every editor will choose the exact same quotes from the book or from how the authors describe their book.

*This is where we as encyclopedia editors come in:
We collect from several secondary sources (such as DPA, AFP, Washington Times and more) and colate the info together.

If in good faith you think that any of my edits does not fit the way Misplaced Pages edits should be done I suggest you file for mediation and we should address the issue with the mediator. Describe what you don't agree with and lets get it resolved in mediation. I am very willing to let a 3rd party review the sources (after all this is what ] and ] are all about. ] 14:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
::We've had mediation and have agreed an introduction. You have changed it without answering specific questions about your sources, such as the simple fact that two of them don't even mention Husseini. As for review by a third party Fred Bauder has already told you on your talk page that the material probably doesn't belong in the introduction and doesn't support the claims you're making. --] 15:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

:::If you want Fred as the mediator, ask him and let's start formal mediation. Fred was also the person that (even before the new material) agreed that Husseini is antisemite so we should include that as well. In any case, what I suggest is that you file a formal request for mediation and list the exact issues you think need to change. Provide reason (where what I wrote is differenr from the sources you have) and let's get on with it. ] 16:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

== Recent edit by Ian. ==

All the material deleted by Ian in this edit is properly sourced. This edit is in violation of Misplaced Pages policy.

This is a 2nd request from ian to retore the sourced material. His continued removal of this information is in violation of wikiepedia policy such as ] and more.

If you think this material should not be there you can start mediation. I will accept. ] 20:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

== Ian is engaged in "Original Research" ==

It seems to me that Ian has a reasonable thesis based on his analysis of the sources and the way they are cited and used. Indeed, I would recommend that Ian collect all of his data and write an article or a book on the systematic Jewish/Israeli bias that he believes exists and which leads to a biased, misrepresentation of pseudo-scholarly work that distorts our historical understanding. (BTW, there is no question that the bias he perceives exists. I think that he is wrong about its power to distort history. If anything, a left-leaning anti-Israel attitude is dominant in academia. But that's precisely the issue for scholarly debate.) He should have no trouble getting it published as a there are plenty of left-leaning anti-Israel academic journals, some of which have a good academic reputation. Then, even if those venues have some bias, this debate could take place there, in social science journals, rather than in the Misplaced Pages.

These facts seem clear.

*The "standards of proof" (i.e., the sources and the way they must be cited) that Ian is "requiring" (by dint of his edits) for simple statements about the Mufti FAR exceed that which is found throughout WP.

*This constant application of his analytic conclusions amounts to clear Original Research. That is, by continuously scrutinizing the sources and reaching the same conclusion that he believes is the correct one about these sources and their accuracy, he is engaging in Original Research and then applying it to a number of related articles.

There is nothing wrong with OR, and again I encourage him to do it and have it published where it should be debated, i.e., NOT in the WP. ] 13:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::Pointing out that sources are contradictory is not original research. The rest of the diatribe above is entirely a product of your imagination. I don't hold any of the views you attribute to me, but I have no interest in discussing my views on Misplaced Pages. --] 18:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::Ian, Where are the sources "contradictory" ? Surly you understand that if Source a says X, Y, Z and source B choose only to quote X, Y this is not a contradiction but a ].
:::If Indeed you have found a "contradiction" this is great. This is what NPOV is all about: Provide what source a sais and also the other source which give the <b> other </b> POV. ] 18:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::::It's not a question of points of view, but of contradictory accounts. One report says only that Husseini met Eichmann, which is completely uncontroversial and probably true, the other says that Husseini met Eichmann to plan details of the slaughter. If this latter account is correct then the German book is a major contribution to our knowledge about the mufti and we need to know if that is indeed the claim made. --] 18:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

:::::So it is a subset. One source said they met, the other said they met and the reason for the meating.
:::::No contradiction. just a subset.
:::::I have anticipated your claim and only placed the fact that they met. (I did not include the other part, although it is enough to include it if one source sais so) but still you reverted the edit that include even the subset that both sources include:
:::::I stress again: <b> there is no contradiction. There is one source that adds more that the other source choose not to include. In no place do one source contradict the other.</b> ] 18:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::And how is a change to the introduction supported by two articles that don't mention him at all? --] 19:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::Two sources mention him as antisemite. use ^F ] 19:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Why have you cited sources that don't mention him? --] 20:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::For now, we don't need these sources. Feel free to remove them. They will be used later. ] 20:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::I accept this press release as a reliable source: and if we can get a translation of the book that would be a better source for a new section in the article. --] 20:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::The issue is not what "you accept" the issue is to follow ] and ]. If you continue to remove sourced content this will be an issue for ArbCom to deal with.
:::::::::::As for the book itself (which will be one of the many sources about the new info) - I am trying to get it as well. ] 03:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

== translation ==

From the source:

"El-Husseini habe unter anderem bei mehreren Treffen mit Adolf Eichmann Details der geplanten Morde <u>festgelegt</u>"

"Husseini had several meeting with Eichmann in which the detail of the genocide were <u>determined</u>"

Previous section describe the plans for the genocide of the jews in Palestine. ] 04:06, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
:Yes I know, that's why I pointed it out with a note that I accept it as a valid source. It's unlikely that a press release from the authors' university misrepresents the book, though of course it would be interesting to see the full evidence presented. However, the introdcution should be reverted back to the mediated version and the body of the article should contain a new section dealing with this new material from Mallmann and Cueppers. Ironically, I see you automatically rejected the source above and threatened ArbCom action! --] 11:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with you. It is good that you finally accepted whats in the book. I guess another mediation should take place. ] 12:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
:It's not practical (or desirable) to have mediation every few weeks at the request of the same editor. --] 17:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::Ian, I have tried for a long time to discuss this with you. This discussion leads nowhere. The new information has been presented. You agree now to the sources validity, the info is described as new by the academic sources themself. I will edit the article to include this important new info.

::In case you would disagree with me here are the options open to you:

#suggest an alternative edit - I might agree
#edit war to remove my edits
#file for mediation so that 3rd party will help us to resolve the issue

Option 2 will lead to ArbCom.
I prefer option #3 but do what ever you want. If you think mediation is not a good ida use options 1 or 2.
] 17:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
:Certainly the new material should be added to the article, under the section for World War II. The introduction should stay as mediated. --] 18:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::The introduction should represent the article. That is[REDACTED] policy. It should include the most important facts about the subject. Surly our mediation (done some time ago without the key new info) is noty something that set aside Misplaced Pages policy.

::On the personal level Ian, I wonder how long will you continue this ? you <b> KNOW </b> how this dbate will end up. I am sure you do. The only question in mind is:
*Will it take an ArbCom descision against your behaviour to get this article to represent the truth about the person ?

::So let's start by a simple question:
*Was Husseini antisemitic (according to the sources in front of us) ?

*If yes - please revert your edit.

*If No - provide proof based on ] to NPOV the acdemic sources that claim he was.

] 18:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

This is just first step in fixing this article. To be continued. ] 18:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
:I suggest you try and find out whether there is any consensus for changing the introduction that was mediated just a couple of months ago and whether other editors agree that the article should contain links to material that does not mention Husseini at all. The new material can certainly be added to the section on World War II. You might also want to consider whether any editor will want to mediate anything with you if you don't stick to what's agreed. --] 18:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::Ian. I remind you about ] but let us start by a simple question:
*Was Husseini antisemitic (according to the sources in front of us) ?

*If yes - please revert your edit.

*If No - provide proof based on ] to NPOV the acdemic sources that claim he was.

can you answer the question or you prefer not to answer it ?

] 19:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
::Thanks for the reminder, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with the discussion. Did you agree to the mediated introduction or not? --] 19:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::Ian, You are refusing discussion on changes based on the new info - that is understood. I don't agree to it and my view is that the article must reflect the new info. The lead section will also be changed as per ].
:::This is a content dispute and you choose to edit war on behalf of how you want the article to be. That is understood as well. ] 20:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::: Ian, a mediation compromise is not written in stone. Just like a person that was convicted in court can stand for re-trial and be freed if new information surfaces, also here a mediated introduction should not be forever unchanged just because it was mediated. I agree it should not be done lightly, but since there is obviously new information at hand, and it is both well sourced and relevant, the intro should reflect this.
::::-] 23:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::::I think there are three relevant points: (1) the mediation was very recent, (2) it was at the request of the person who now wants to change the introduction, and (3) the new information doesn't actually make any difference to the mufti's historical role. The introduction is a reasonable summary of what he was known for, i.e., what makes him of encyclopedic interest. As I've said the new material should have its own section and we can expand this in due course when we know what the actual evidence is. --] 12:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

== about antisemitism section ==

Hello. As Ian points out, I think a paragraph should be added in the World War II section to deal the topic. Nevertheless I think this should not just mention the "quotes" stating the Mufti's antisemitism but also explain this antisemitism fed the israeli historiography that emphasized this aspect of the personnality of Mufti and all the myths that were developed after the war by "official historians". I think the fact that holocaust encyclopedy entry about Mufti is as long as Hitler's is really an important information (to be sourced precisely).

Given both he "was antisemite" and "his antisemitism has been widely reported and exagerately emphasized", I think the introduction should be rewritten to take this into account. I think, after the writing and the concensus about a potential new section. Such a sentence as "Mufti was also antisemite" is not appropriate I think but the word "antisemite" should appear.

Good work. I will not contribute to this discussion. ] 09:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you and sangil. good to know that some people use "talk page" to add value. ] 09:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
::I agree partly. I would like to see a section on this material and I'd be glad to help write it. The mufti's role in historiography is an enormous topic though and probably wouldn't fit well with the rest of the article. I actually added the material about the Holocaust Encyclopedia some months ago, but it was deleted almost immediately. --] 12:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Question: How can this man be antisemitic when he was in fact Semitic? -Teetotaler
:Question: ] ] {{user:psychomelodic/me}} 13:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
:Question: would you prefer Misplaced Pages just point out he hated Jews? ] 19:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
::This would probably fit more in History anyway. --] 19:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

== Hitler Book ==

''The Hitler Book'' was removed from the references because it is not a reliable source. Per the ArbCom:
*''Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Misplaced Pages article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles.'']
If there is information referenced from that book we should be able to find independent sources. -] 16:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

*OK ] 18:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

== copy-vio ==

The paragraph that reads "When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a trade prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt concentration camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled, although there is no evidence that his intervention prevented their rescue." seems to be a copy-vio coming from . There may be other copy-vios, too. Any such copy-vios will have to be rewritten or deleted. ]]<font color="grey">] 01:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

==This whole subpage on anti-semitism looks like a cut and paste ==
It needs to be wikified. And it should be checked for Copy-vio. --] 13:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

== Deletion of sourced content ==

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni&diff=90949555&oldid=90839676

Ian has been warned in the past by ArbCom to avoid such actions. Is it time to re-open his case ? ] 18:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
:Nonsense. The ArbCom case was against you and they did not rule that each article must contain every source twice. --] 20:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

== Request for mediation has been filled ==

Please be advised that a medaition request has been filed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#Request_Information

Ian: Avoid edit war until mediation is concluded (and after) ] 08:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

* I am waiting for Ian to join the mediation effort. ] 19:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Ian, Zero: Please explain your objections to the sourced text at the mediation page or here. Thanks, ] 20:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

:Is this request still necessary or can I close it? --] 07:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The text Zeq wants to add to the intro is unacceptable. To start with, Expatia is not a recognised news source (it is mostly a travel company), and the linked article has no author and no sources. So its reliability is unknown. Second, there is '''nobody''' who believes that al-Husayni was "the most important collaborator with the Nazis". This is in fact '''completely ridiculous'''. Are we supposed to believe that al-Husayni was more important than ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and a hundred other collaborators who played much greater roles? Nor is it correct to say that the linked article really makes that claim; that would be to ignore the context. ''Within the limited context of Arab collaboration'', al-Husayni was no doubt important. Without that context, the insertion is a lie. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point as ] is not mentioned in Misplaced Pages as Nazi. Does this mean he was not a Nazi ? In any case none of the name dropping you used matter. The issue is what the ACADEMIC sources say and I have quoted from an ACADEMIC source. If you have a different source then by all means NPOV would give you the right to present your source side by side. g'day. ] 17:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that an article filled with weasel words from an unreliable source has been allowed to remain in this article. Anything that contains a phrase like "...is being considered..." is hardly encyclopedic. ] 20:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

== Vandalism warning ==

Changing anti-semitism to anti-zionism is vandalism. Vandalism will not be tolerated on this page.
There is no argument about husseioeninbeing against the jews - his own words are clear. any attempt to hide this is pure vandalism. I suggest that Ian check with Fred B from ArbCom about:
1. Was huseeieni antisemitic (Fred said he was)
2. Is Ian supposed to edit war or based on ArbCom rulling is encouraged to use dispute resolution mechanisms

The last offer for medaiation was refused by Ian and Zero so they both don't have strong footing to stand on in this argument. If we need to bring it back to ArbCom we should and would. ] 06:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:1) Unless you can point out a violation of actual policy such as BLP or RS, then simple content dispute is not vandalism.
:2) Rejection of mediation does not lessen or diminish one's "footing" in a discussion. Mediation is not compulsory. ] 13:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

== The previous mediation ==

As many of you know since the previous medaition there was a new book (academic source) that was published about Husseieni.

So I have offered Zero and Ian to participate in a new medaition that would take into account the new ] sources.

They refused medaition but instead Ian (and now tarc) are edit warring with the argument of "this was agreed". Well, this is not a bone-fide argument. If anyone wants to rely on medaition results fine let us participate in mediation not decline it. ] 07:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:You already acted in bad faith following the ] mediation. AGF is out the window here as far as I'm concerned. ] 13:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

::I did not and your accusation is irelevant. You were not part of this mediation. All that I understand is that you refuse a new one. ] 20:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Nothing has changed; not from your failed attempt a month ago, and not from last May when you were trying this as well. ] 22:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

== Anti-Zionism ==

The word anti-Zionism used in the lead of this article in the contxt it is used is just a weasle-word.
The mufti was anti-semitic and that is how an encyclopedia should charterize him. there are clear acdemic sources that mention he was.

If there are crediable sources that claim he was "anti-zionist" please provide them and we should consider but if not we should not invent new words for him. see similar discussion here: ] 10:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

== Identifying a key historical source ==

Is the book referred to by Mallmann and Cueppers (external reference 1 and internal reference 7) actually the following:
Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers, ''Halbmond und Hakenkreuz: das Dritte Reich, die Araber und Palästina''.
Series: Veröffentlichungen der Forschungsstelle Ludwigsburg der Universität Stuttgart; No. 8; Darmstadt : Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, c2006. ISBN 3534197291, 9783534197293? This is the only reference I can find for these two authors writing together, and the date would be correct. However, the book title is quite different and I suspect that the Washington Post has it in error, probably from the AFP source. ] 12:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.amazon.de/Halbmond-Hakenkreuz-Dritte-Araber-Pal%C3%A4stina/dp/3534197291 ] 12:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

== Refusal to particiapte in mediation ==
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#Request_Information


Ian and Zero:

I wish you would re-consider and follow dispute resolution.
Please stop the edit war over this issue. ] 16:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
:We followed dispute resolution to arrive at the introduction you keep deleting. --] 17:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

::No You don't. Check the link two lines above. Previous mediation was prior to the publication of the book:

http://www.amazon.de/Halbmond-Hakenkreuz-Dritte-Araber-Pal%C3%A4stina/dp/3534197291

As new Academic sources are published the article will be updated - even if previous medaition resulted in an agreed text.
Now an offer to renew the mediation (based on the new published academic material) is offered to you.

] 17:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
:It's a relevant book and a reliable source, the contents of which we have already covered in the article as a result of the authors' earlier book chapter. So what's new? --] 18:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Ian,

The key point here is that there is new data that has been presented into the article. This data fits the lead and it is backed by god academic sources.

If you have another POV - please provide sources. If you want to re-open the meiation I would most welcome that. ] 18:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
:I don't agree that the source changes anything about the fundamentals and the issue of anti-Semitism was discussed thoroughly by the editors who participated in the mediation last time. Obviously, there's no point in mediation if you aren't going to abide by the outcome. --] 18:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

::I disagree with you. I was part of that mediation and the new source changed what can be used in Misplaced Pages.
::The article now is sourced to an academic source. If your argument is that a group of[REDACTED] editors is better than an academic source I don't accept this argument.
::Please check Misplaced Pages policy and find out why we need to accept your view instead of that of an sourced academic source.

::If you want to re-open the mediation I am 100% fior it. If not please just follow[REDACTED] policy and arbcom decsion about such issues:
*avoid edit war
*use academic sources
*you can intreduce a 2nd POV (unless it is a marginal one) if you have an academic source

] 18:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Zeq, "...known for his antisemitism" is weaselish and simply doesn't belong in the lead. It is you editorializing and claiming that the Mufti was most famous for being an antisemite, a charge that is not supported by the source. Anti-zionism doesn't even belong there; it just sounds weak and non-encyclopedic. There is a full section later on in the article that goes into great detail regarding the researcher's claims of his antisemitism. Your claims that others are removing reliable sources is invalid. ] 18:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

what is your view ? what do you suggest the source sais ? ] 19:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:The source doesn't say he was "known" for his anti-Semitism. He was known as a Palestinian nationalist and religious leader. --] 19:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

::Good point. "known for" is weasle words. Let's just go for what he <b> is </b>: Anti-semite and colborator . ] 18:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

== OK Let's go with what the source sais ==

""The grand mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was the most important collaborator with the Nazis on the Arab side and an uncompromising anti-Semite," ] 19:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
:Quite, it doesn't say he was known for his anti-Semitism and his collaboration is already mentioned in the mediated introduction. --] 19:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Ian,

What do you mean by "quite" ? ] 19:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Adjusted the lead based on the exact words of the academic source. ] 18:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

== Controverse ==

I never understood why we could not introduce and explain the "controverse" around the "alleged" antisemitism of Al-Husseini. Isn't true that he is considered as a "uncompromising" anti-semitism by israeli historiography and this has been studied by many scholars ? So why not to explain this to the reader ? ] 06:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

:academic sources please . bring sources and everything should be considered. ] 08:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

::Zeq. Ian and Zero have all these sources. In the past I brought around 12 quotes from different people that were ''claiming'' (which does'nt prove it is true - it is just a claim) he was antisemite. On the other hand they are scholars such as Zerthal who explain this image has been built and others such as Seguev who explain how and why israeli history was fabricated at that time.
::The controverse here is also existing between official history and some historians. It should be explained to respect NPoV with statements such as : ''Husseini has long been considered as ... and ... by ... who claimed ... and saw in him ... His biographers write that ... Historians defends different pov such as ... who considers that ... and ... who points out that ...
::That would be good work. ] 08:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you have sources to support that he was "anti-zionist" ?
Discussion about "israeli history was fabricated" are not the subject of this article ] 10:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
:Of course. Eg, Benny Morris in "Righteous Victims".
:Given the fact that Husseiny's antisemitism has been exacerbated by official israeli historians (source: Zerthal), it is part of the article.
:] 15:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
::"''...Husseiny's antisemitism has been exacerbated by official israeli historians...''" Who are these "official Israeli historians"? Never heard of any. And how could they "exacerbate" mufti's antisemitism? ] ] 13:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

== Spelling ==

Why is his '']'' spelled "Husayni" in this article? Most English sources that I know spell it as "Husseini". ] ] 13:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
:Unless there are objections, I am going to list this article on ]. ] ] 09:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
::Look at the Gscholar results. Husayni seems more proper.] 09:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

== Pov flag ==

The introduction is not accurate and due to this, poved.<br/>
Indeed :<br/>
* introduction could make people think Husayni had stopped his activity after 1945 while he is the most known for its activity during 1948 war;

&& He is well known for being an antisemite, colaborator with the nazis, he came up with the idea to kill the jews in the holyland and exported it to Germany - we should add all this as well. ] 12:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

* introduction could make people think he is "mainly" known for his antisemitism and that it is what the most caracterized him. The fact he was pictured as antisemite cannot be denied, the fact many historians consider him as such cannot be denied but "mainly" known for that is part of the israeli historiography and propaganda against him. Controversed matters should not be introduced as truths.
* ''"al-Husayni fought against the establishment of a Jewish Homeland in the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine."''. As Zerthal explains, this is part of the israeli paranoia. Husayni fought for the establishment of a Arab independant state on the whole Palestine and, as a consequence, fought against the establishment of a Jewish state. The introduction mispresent events.
] 12:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
:Suggest an alternative. ] 09:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
::I have written this on your talk page. ] 10:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
:::I remove the tag. ] 10:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

== Mallman-Cueppers ==

I have removed (a) dead links (b) expatica, which is not RS and (c) the press release in German, as well as all data based on it. I would like to see analysis of this claim, as well as mainstream historical reviews of Mallman-Cueppers' findings, rather than reports in the popular press. Anything less is unbecoming of the encyclopaedia and of the gravity of the statements. ] 07:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Expatica link was quating AFP and DPa - both are relaible sources. The Mallman-Cueppers is not only a RS source but also an academic one. Do not remove those agaian. If you find a dead link - search the web and you will find a new one with the same content. There is no doubt on what the Mallman-Cueppers book sais .

We should also ask - well never mind. ] 11:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

:I am yet to find a single review of the book in the scholarly literature other than a mention in the "recently published" section of the Journal of Holocaust and Genocide Studies. The Expatica link is not reliable in and of itself; however, I suspect that it was not quoting AFP, but a the press release from Stuttgart. At least, I think I've found a reference in the London Independent.
:In general, whether or not there is 'no doubt' about what the book says - and I must say that there is doubt, since the only source is a university press release, and not an academic mention, let alone an English-language review - it should be presented as new and as yet unconfirmed research. Certainly, a claim that Husayni, however unpleasant a character, was actually ''in the loop'' about genocide, both planned and what was being executed on the ground, is a claim that can only be classed as extraordinary; if the only secondary source is the press release, I would like to see the text revised to indicate that.

:Also, please feel free to either complete your thought, or to strike it out. ] 03:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

== ] on Al-Husayni's (lack of) religiosity ==

<blockquote>
Fascism made certain inroads in the 1930s among ] elements in Egypt, Syria and Iraq. It should be recalled that Haj Amin al Husseini the Mufti of Jerusalem spent the war years as Hitler's guest in Berlin. '''But in retrospect there are doubts with regard to the depth of Haj Amin's religiosity. He requested for instance the bombing of ] by the German air force. It is unlikely that a truly pious Muslim would have acted this way.'''
</blockquote>

, ], Oxford University Press, 25.10.2006 <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]){{#if:23:39:15, August 19, 2007 (UTC)|&#32;23:39:15, August 19, 2007 (UTC)}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I think it is more a pov from Laqueur on Islam and religiosity than on Al-Husseini.
:His point is less that Mufti was not pious than people that would bomb a city are not good Muslim.
:] 08:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

== Images deleted ==

It looks like someone really did not like the image of the Mufti and Hitelr ] 13:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
:Yes. I don't know how to get it back and who deleted it. ] 18:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
::The file was hosted on the Wikimedia Commons, but the uploader could never prove his assertion of "having permission", so it was deleted as a fair use violation. You could try again here, but given the image's history, it'd have a pretty high hurdle to meet in order to remain, given its past issues. ] 19:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

*Wrong !!!v This is clearly falls within the "fair use" the image is of historical importance now. No copyright could hold once an image become such a public image. If they could use the photo: http://yahel.wordpress.com/2007/02/22/libro-historico-los-nazis-planeaban-una-extension-del-holocausto-en-palestina-con-ayuda-de-los-arabes/ and it is all over the web: http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-06,RNWE:en&q=hitler%20mufti&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi there should not be any problem] 07:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
:::If it was hosted on commons, it is not strange it was deleted. Other will soon follow. Fair use is not authorized on commons. ] 06:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

*Clearly the dlete of this imge is using 'wikilayering" to prevent an imgae that is not comfertable to their POV. People who edit from such dep bias should not be editing this article. ] 07:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

:*What you ''think'' should be fair use does mean that it actually ''is'' fair use. It is a messy, ugly subject on the Misplaced Pages right now, as images are being deleted en masse across the spectrum. If you want to dive in, then head on over to ]. ] 14:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
::There is no "cabale" against some images. All wiki has forbidden fair use and on commons they have started a chase against any image that is not 100% free. They go too far but I will not try to put me in front of the administrators group performing this job. THey don't discuss much and block very fast. ] 19:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

== Proposal that could "close the case" ? ==

Would the following sentence be relevant for the introduction ?
:''Until today, Al-Husayni has been seen as a hero by the palestinian nationalist movement and pictured as a virulent antisemite by Israeli historiography.''
] 15:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

==Post-war influence==
:"Afterwards, he lost most of his remaining political influence and died in 1974."

That's a major oversimplification at best. Non-Arab governments weren't really interested in anything he had to say after 1949, but he still remained the undisputed single most publicly-prominent leading Palestinian Arab political personality down to 1964 (when Nasser elevated ] to a position of leadership). ] 02:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
:That is possible but then the information should be first added in the article... ] 06:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

== Comment ==

<s>why do people who don't read the article's of anything serious about the subject matter insist on making edits?</s> i think this edit is an error.<sup></sup>

"Greater Syria was to include territory now occupied by Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel" -

this is from the article, obviously, there's room to expand, but if you <s>don't know the material</s> don't have the right source, why force false information in? <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 00:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

:i'm still contesting this, but i'll take my time before i collect proper citations for evidence and represent my reservation. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 11:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

::Ian is an editor in good standing in Middle Eastern related articles, and from what I have seen is quite knowledgeable on these subjects. These are obviously contentious issues, but accusing long-standing editors of not knowing anything about it or of inserting false information just because their views happen to differ from your own is not helpful. I suggest you reexamine your attitude here. ] 12:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

:::some editing to tone down the language, thank you for the serious comment you had a good point. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 14:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Jaakobou,<br/>
In '48 Abdallah wanted to take as much of Palestine as he could but indeed, his ambitions was to get as much as he could of great Syria. But Husseini only fought against his ambitions on Palestine, he didn't mind what could arise in Syria, even if Syrian and/or Egyptians did ! ] 13:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll only ask a question, who here read a biography book on abdullah the first?<br>p.s. Alithien, if you have a sources for this, it would be far better than a statement that's just as good as my statements. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 14:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

:A source of what exactly ? On what do you complain precisely ? I only read 10 books about that war and there is no problem to discuss about the ambitions of Abdallah on Great Syria but this article is about Al-Husseini. What is your point ! ] 16:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

:: is unreferenced. if you have a good reference for it, then our argument would probably end. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 22:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

== Mufti's antisemitism ==

At the time I gathered 12 references arguing that the Mufti was antisemite, posed antisemitic acts or pronounced antisemitic discourses.<br/>
Nevertheless, Idith Zertal, in ''Israel's Holocaust and the Politics of Nationhood'' explains that -true or not- this "antisemitism" has been excessively emphasized.<br/>
I don't think this "alleged antisemitism" is relevant but I think the "emphasize of this antisemitism, true or not", is.<br/>
We can leave the reader decide by himself, reading the facts, if he was antisemite but the emphase should be explained.<br/>
I underline that ] doesn't share my mind as far as I know. ] 13:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:So you are basing one writers view as to whether or not this man is an antisemite. His antisemitism certianly is relevant, and his biography enthesizes his antisemitism. What evidence is there that he is not an antisemite? '''] ]''' 04:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
::It is not a defining characteristic, and certainly does not belong in the lead as this gives it undue weight. The antisemitism claim should be and already is covered in detail in the body of the article. ] 05:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
:::and since it is covered in detial within the body of the article, it disserves mention in the lead. How is it giving undue weight? '''] ]''' 05:38, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello Yahel,<br/>
Given we don't know him, I don't see how we could state he is antisemite or not, so we must base on reliable sources.<br/>
You claim that his biography "enthesizes his antisemitism" but in that case, why his biographie (Elpeleg and Matter) do not claim he is antisemite.<br/>
"What evidence is there he was not antisemite ?". On the contrary, if we want to state he is antisemite, we have to provide the <u>reliable</u> information and the <u>reliable</u> sources that prove this (b: Pearlman is not one, and Schechtman neither, nor is Ben Gurion...).<br/>
I don't sayt they don't exist but I don't have them.<br/>
Qu: Tarc, where do you consider the antisemitism is covered in the article ? ] 08:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

:], last paragraph. ] 12:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The whole issue of antsemitism vs antizionism was dealt long ago (I think it came out of my first arbcom case) and Fred Bauder and others agree he was clearly an antisemite. The compromise with Ian was for "known for" instead of stright "antisemit". I really don't rememeber the exact deatils of the discussion but I do remeber clearly the outcome "known for antisemitism". After that compromise a scholarly book (Kupers) came out in it clear indication that he was active in plans of extrmination of the jews. I think this ends the discussion (Kupers is based on documents from the Nazis themselfs) this also show that Adit Zertal caraterization about so-called "israel wanted to show him as antsemit" is totaly wrong. Zertal is entitled for her POV but she has no proof to base it on. ] 17:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

we should also go back to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-02-11_Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni . Since they actually removed the sources of Mulman and Kupers from the lead where they belong.

<blockquote> "Mallmann and Cueppers said the Nazis had planned to exploit Arab friendship for their plans.

"The most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem," they said in the book. He was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews.

Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann, Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust, to settle details of the slaughter.

DPA " </blockquote> DPA is German news agency ] 17:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

:I am quite sure Ian refuse any compromise where "known for his antisemitism" would have been written.
:I don't mind Fred Bauder's mind. He doesn't know anything about the topic.
:Don't attack Zertal too fast. First she is considered as a reference by all historians from all wings and she doesn't say he wasn't antisemite. She says he has been exagerately pictured as an antisemite.
:What you quote is already in the article. It doesn't justify to write the Mufti was or is known as antisemite.
:] 18:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


I did not say Zertal is an antisemit her self. She has political views - about cooperation between Jews and Arabs - which I actually share. However, such views can not influance the past only the future. Zertal also try to change the past with her views. She is enetiled to her views but in this ebecclopedia it is called POV. She is in a minority POV that can be ignored. Most scholars agree colaborating with neo-nazis is anti-semitic in nature. the mufti is indeed known for being anti-semitic. ] 19:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
:I didn't write you would have written Zertal is antisemite ???
:But anyway, she has not a minority view. I don't know any negative critics against her work.
:Do you have any ?
:] 19:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Reguarding Zertal, it does seem like a minority (and possibly fringe) view. She isn't notable by[REDACTED] standards. She has no[REDACTED] article, and there is no evidence presented about her scholarship, if she even is a scholar. '''] ]''' 20:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
<br/>Many say he was anti-semite. She sais Israel over emphasiosed his antisemitism for political reasons. I would say that put's her in the extreme minority. ] 04:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:You cannot put her where you like :-)
:Here is
:She is well-known on the topic and all the critics are read are positive. Her book has been published by
:She has
:] 06:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


=== Quotes ===

[[:en:Image:NYTimes_1948_Jews_in_Arab_2.jpg|right|thumb|250px|''Not like Dachau. Is it. Herr Mufti.''
Caricature published in NYTimes 16 May 1948]]

'''Haj Amin al Husseini'''’s ] is reported by several of his contemporaries, historians having studied his biography or ], journalists and politicians :

* In her book « Eichmann in Jerusalem », ] who was Professor at ] writes : ''« The Grand Mufti's connections with the Nazis during the war were not secret; he had hoped they would help him in the implementation of some final solution in the Near East »'' <ref> « Eichmann in Jerusalem », ], p.13 </ref>

* In « The Grand Mufti », a biography that is considered paradoxically « as rehabilitating him in emphasing his contribution to the palestinian cause » <ref> Free Traduction from Eric Rouleau, ], août 1988 </ref>, historian Zvi Elpeleg writes: ''« His many comments show that he was not only delighted that Jews were prevented from emigrating to Palestine, but was very pleased by the Nazi’s final solution. »'' <ref> « The Grand Mufti », Zvi Elpeleg, p.73 </ref>

* In an interview granted to ], Dr Walter Reich, ] Memorial Professor of International Affairs, ] and Human ] <ref> </ref>, reports that ''« In 1941, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, met with a number of Nazi leaders, including Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, hoping to get them to side with the Arab cause and even to extend anti-Jewish measures to the Jews in Palestine. In his meeting with Hitler in November 1941, al-Husseini obtained the statement from Hitler that "Germany's objective ...solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere." The phrase used by Hitler in this conversation, "Vernichtung des...Judentums," is one that was used in connection with the Holocaust. Moreover, al-Husseini worked to stop the rescue of Jews, engaged in broadcasts for the Germans, and in 1943 helped organize a Bosnian Muslim division of the Waffen SS that was implicated in atrocities against Jews, Serbs and others in the Balkans. »'' <ref> Interview of Walter Reich by journalist Schmuel Rosner, Haaretz US correspondent </ref>

* On the website of ] <ref></ref> , one can read : ''« Hajj Amin Al Husseini (1895-1974) was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and important Arab leader. He supported the Nazis, and especially their program for the mass murder of the Jews. He visited numerous death camps encouraged Hitler do the extend the "Final Solution" to the Jews of North Africa and Palestine. »'' <ref> </ref>

* In an article published in ], journalist ], author of « IBM and the Holocaust » <ref> See book's website </ref>, writes in reporting events of 1941 : ''« His venomous rhetoric filled the newspapers and radio broadcasts in Tehran. The mufti was a vocal opponent of allowing Jewish refugees to be transported or ransomed into Jewish Palestine. Instead, he wanted them shipped to the gas chambers of Poland. »'' <ref> « Denial of Holocaust nothing new in Iran. Ties to Hitler let to plots against British and Jews », Edwin Black, San Francisco Chronicle, 6 january 2006 </ref>

* In his book « Mufti of Jerusalem », Moshe Pearlman, historian close to ] <ref> « Ben Gurion Looks Back in Talks with Moshe Pearlman, David Ben Gourion », New York, Schocken Books, 1965 </ref> writes : ''«Arabs...were called upon, in the name of the Koran and the honour of Islam, to sabotage the oil pipelines, blow up bridges and roads along British lines of communications, kill British troops, destroy their dumps and supplies, mislead them by false information, withhold their support. The exhortations usually included the suggestion that they could save their souls by massacring the Jewish infidels in their midst.... »'' <ref> « Mufti Of Jerusalem », Pearlman quoted by Ronald J. Rychlak in </ref>

* In her controversed book <ref>Book is controversed by ] and ] because it defends the thesis that Palestine was depopulated before the arrival of Zionist immigrants </ref> « From Time Immemorial : the origin of the Arab Jewish conflict over Palestine », ], reports that ''« In 1940, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, requested the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right "to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy. »'' <ref> « From Time Immemorial », Joan Peters quoted by Joseph Farah in </ref>

* In his book « The Gramsi Factor », ], journalist and Massachusetts candidate for US Congress <ref> See his website </ref> writes : ''« On 1 March 1944, in a radio Broadcast to the Arab people from Berlin, the Mufti stated : "Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them »'' <ref> « The Gramsi Factor », Chuck Morse, p.114, </ref>

* In « Israel, Islam and the church », Paul Carlson, who taught Scripture classes on Old and New Testaments, <ref> See his biography </ref> , refering to Michael Bar Zohar writes : ''« Blood was what the Mufti demanded in his speeches broadcast from Cairo... (…) And no sooner had the United Nations announced their decision that the Jihad started. The outcome was not difficult to see with 40 millions Arabs fighting against 650,000 Jews. »'' <ref> « Israel, Islam and the church », Paul Carlson, p 211 </ref>

'''''Notes and references'''''

<references/>

== odd category addition ==

What is the reasoning for the ] add? I am not seeing a fit here at all.
] 21:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:This must be a mistake. ] 17:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

== Looking for more co-operation ==

Instead of fighting on antisemitism or antizionism I decided to join those who expended the lead. I hope highlighting known and documented parts of his life will help the reader to decide for themself. I still think we should put the label antisemit back in the lead but it does not make sense to do it now as this is being reverted. I am sure we can cooperate more on this article and eventually reach consenus. After all his role is undsputed and well documented. ] 04:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:What you wrote is undue:weight and not consensus. ] 06:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

::No. I just added few years from his life that were for some reason absent from the lead. You can not erase the man history between 1936 to 1947 just because he did things that you may not want to highlight. Your point of undue wieght is not accepted - any simple observation about the war years to his biography will show that it mneeds to be included . ] 10:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Hi Zeq,
:::Please, refrain from "personnal attacks" : ''things that you may not want to highlight''.
:::If you want to add something to this consensual version, let's discuss this before on the talk page. As I am currently doing about the antisemitism matter. ] 10:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::::It is not a personal attck on you at all.I am sorry you read it as such. It is clear that you want to avoid mentioning the war years in the lead - that is after all what you have done twice now. Please self revert. ] 10:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::He was sent to exile in 193<u>7</u>. The remaining is not relevant. ] 10:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Certainly he was pro-Palestinian. His going to Germany doesn't necesarrily mean he was an anti-semite like the Nazi's were anti-semites. Were Stern Gang members anti-semites when they asked the Nazi's to fight together against the English? --] 11:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Nice Original research, in any case his antisemitism is clear from what he said and what he did not from his trip to Germany. And btw, I think the sten gang were antisemit but that is irelevant and OR as well. ] 11:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::As is the alleged Mufti antisemitism irrelevant...
:::::::] 11:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Read what I wrote. the stern gang is irelevant. The Mufti antsiemitism is of course relvent but you keep reverting it... ] 12:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::Why would Mufti alleged antisemitism be relevant ? ] 12:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::Because scholary sources describe him as such. ] 12:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::This prooves the information is reliable, not relevant.
:::::::::::What is the proportion of scholars books concerning the Mufti discussing its alleged antisemitism ?
:::::::::::I made the job and I can tell you a few lines only and barely using the word "antisemite". ] 14:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::Yes, Zeq, '''a''' solitary source in a travel magazine says he was an "absolute antisemite". That is hardly a preponderance of all historians. This is a recurring problem you seem to have in many articles, in that you wish to jam the most damning and controversial information into the article lead where it simply does not belong. ] 14:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::A scholary source is not "a travel magazine". This is an academic book. The book was quoted by DPA and AFP (news agencies) the fact that the only link remained refernced in the article is for the DPA report on expadica web site does not reduce the creadability of the book itself. If you think Malman and Kuppers are not good sources you should raise it with the german university in which they are professors... ] 14:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Nobody said he was not "antisemite". But all historians do not claim so and the relevance of this information for the introduction is not proven. ] 15:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

<b> University source</b>

Here is the source and an english trnaslation. This is actually already in the article so can we now say in the lead that he was antisemite ?

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/aktuelles/presse/2006/36.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/aktuelles/presse/2006/36.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DNationalsozialisten%2Bplanten%2BHolocaust%2Bin%2BPal%25C3%25A4stina%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DRNWE,RNWE:2005-06,RNWE:en

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/3/0,1872,3930019,00.html


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/3/0,1872,3930019,00.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=6&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DNationalsozialisten%2Bplanten%2BHolocaust%2Bin%2BPal%25C3%25A4stina%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DRNWE,RNWE:2005-06,RNWE:en

this is what it say (<u>scholary source</u>):

<blockquote> " Over Final Solution
Der erklärte Antisemit el-Husseini floh 1941 vor den Briten nach Berlin und plante zusammen mit den Nazis die Judenvernichtung. The declared anti-Semite el-Husseini fled in 1941 before the British to Berlin and planned together with the Nazis, the Jews destruction. Bei mehreren Treffen mit Adolf Eichmann seien Details der geplanten Morde festgelegt worden. In several meetings with Adolf Eichmann were details of the planned killings has been established. Und Hitler versprach er, genügend willige Araber zu mobilisiern. And he promised Hitler, enough willing to mobilisiern Arabs. Sie sollten als Schergen die Endlösung übernehmen - über die Art und Weise lässt sich allerdings nur spekulieren. They should be seen as henchmen of the Final Solution-on the way can only speculate. "Aber es wäre wahrscheinlich weit mehr in militärischen Formen abgelaufen, denn die Juden Palästinas waren auch bewaffnet", so Klaus-Michael Mallmann. "But it would probably be far more in military forms expired, as the Jews of Palestine were also armed," said Klaus-Michael Mallmann. "Es wäre zu wilden Schiessereien gekommen, dominant Araber gegen Juden in Palästina." "It would be too wild shoot come to dominate Arabs against Jews in Palestine."
"Die Geschichte des Nahen Ostens wäre völlig anders verlaufen und ein jüdischer Staat hätte dort wohl nie gegründet werden können, wenn das Vorhaben von Deutschen und Arabern gemeinsam in die Tat umgesetzt worden wäre", schreiben Mallmann und Cüpppers. "The history of the Middle East would be entirely different story and a Jewish state there would probably never be established if the project by the Germans and Arabs together in the deed would have been implemented," write Mallmann and Cüpppers.
Ausweitung des Massenmords Expansion of genocide
Nur die Niederlage Rommels Ende 1942 in Ägypten gegen die britische Armee habe eine Ausweitung des Massenmords verhindert, so die beiden Historiker in ihrem Aufsatz in dem gerade erschienenen Sammelband "Deutsche, Juden, Völkermord - Der Holocaust als Geschichte und Gegenwart". Only the defeat of Rommel at the end of 1942 in Egypt against the British army was an extension of the genocide prevented, the two historians in her essay just published in the anthology "Germans, Jews, Genocide - The Holocaust as history and the present." Im Herbst erscheint von gleichem Autorenduo ein ganzes Buch zum geplanten Holocaust in Palästina. In the fall of the same appears Autorenduo an entire book on the planned Holocaust in Palestine. "</blockquote>


translation:

<Blockquote> "Over Final Solution
The <u>declared anti-Semite el-Husseini</u> fled in 1941 before the British to Berlin and planned together with the Nazis, the Jews destruction.


In several meetings with Adolf Eichmann were details of the planned killings has been established.

And he promised Hitler, enough willing to mobilisiern Arabs.

They should be seen as henchmen of the Final Solution-on the way can only speculate. "But it would probably be far more in military forms expired, as the Jews of Palestine were also armed," said Klaus-Michael Mallmann. "It would be too wild shoot come to dominate Arabs against Jews in Palestine."

"The history of the Middle East would be entirely different story and a Jewish state there would probably never be established if the project by the Germans and Arabs together in the deed would have been implemented," write Mallmann and Cüpppers.

Expansion of mass expansion of genocide

Only the defeat of Rommel at the end of 1942 in Egypt against the British army was an extension of the genocide prevented, the two historians in her essay just published in the anthology "Germans, Jews, Genocide - The Holocaust as history and the present." " In the fall of the same appears Autorenduo an entire book on the planned Holocaust in Palestine. "</blockquote> ] 14:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

:Doesn't change the fact that you are (per usual) giving undue weight to a solitary source. Leave it covered in the body of the article where it is now. There's simply no need and no call for what you're trying to jam into the lead. ] 15:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

::More NPA from Tarc. This is not a solitary source. In any case it is a scholary source, others source claim the same - otherwise Zertal would not need to come out and claim he is not an antisemite. I ask aagin that you applogize for your PA and revert back to a reasonable version that ddescribe his action during and before the war. All are well documented facts. ] 15:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I have brought quotes from another scholary source: - he researched the mufti life extensivly and documented it in his book and here: http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/hitlers-legacy-islamic-antisemitism-in-the-middle-east ] 16:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:The controversy around this gentleman doesn't talk for him.
:It is not what could be called a reference for an historical topic.
:] 16:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Zeq, you added material in the introduction once again without commenting here before as was asked to you.
:::I note also that once again you threat a contributor.
:::It has been explained to you that :
:::* this introduction was reached out of a consensus. You already tried to modify this some months ago
:::* if you want to add something you are asked you several times with civily to come on the talk page first. you don't respect this requirement
:::* what is gathered in the article and in the introduction should respect ]
:::] 16:02, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2023 ==
Ali,


{{Edit semi-protected|Amin al-Husseini|answered=yes}}
I edit with good faith and I don't make threats. I don't accept the way you see how ] should apply here. The subject of this article is viwed by some as Hero of Arab freedom and by others (including many scholary sources) as an antisemite colborator with the Nazis.
Article: Amin al-Husseini
Heading: Ties with the Axis Powers during World War II
Subheading: Recruitment


First word of the 3rd sentence has a typo, should be changed from "Riven" to "Driven".
I was willing , for the time being, to postpone the discussion on the antisemite label but since more facts about his life were added from what you call "the consensus version" I have decided to expend a bit more on the years which were not covered.


"Riven by interethnic conflict, the region's Jewish, Croat, Roma, Serb and Muslim communities suffered huge losses of life," ] (]) 14:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
So far, you have not offered any enclopedia reason for your stream of reverts. It is my right to be bold and edit this article. I don't have to ask your premission. On the other hand it is you, if you decide to revert, that should explain why you delete other editors work. Please respect other editors and stop deleting their work. ] 16:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 17:18, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
:Fyi 'riven' is a word. It means to violently pull something apart. ] (]) 23:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)


== Edit request December 25, 2024 ==
== Definition of relevance ==
This section in the article misquotes the source: “Fritz Grobba wrote on 17 July 1942 that al-Husseini himself had visited Oranienburg concentration camp and that "the Jews aroused particular interest among the Arabs. ... It all made a very favorable impression on the Arabs."”


The actual wording in the original source is “By mid-1942 at the latest the Mufti was fully aware of what was happening in the concentration camps. Contrary to the wishes of the AA, three members of al-Kailani’s staff and one member of the Mufti’s staff visited the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen to the north of Berlin. ‘In particular the Jews aroused the interest of the Arabs.’ The visit left the Arabs with a ‘very favourable impression’. According to Obersturmführer Weise, who had been given the post of the Mufti’s liaison officer upon his arrival in Berlin and was thus duty bound to inform the Mufti of the matter, the visit lasted some two hours and had been ‘very satisfactory’: Grobba to Pol. VII, 17 July 1942, IfZ, Nbg. Dok., NG-5446.” Gensicke, Klaus (2011). The Mufti of Jerusalem and the Nazis: The Berlin Years. Vallentine Mitchell. ISBN 978-0-853-03844-3. p 119 footnote 54 (which itself is on p. 169). <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)</small>
The introduction must reflect the relevance of each information with its due weight. This is currently the case. ] 14:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
: I verified this. Part of the confusion is that the Sachsenhausen camp was close to Oranienburg. However, Gensicke definitely does not say that the Mufti visited either place personally. I'll fix it. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Article: Amin al-Husseini Heading: Ties with the Axis Powers during World War II Subheading: Recruitment

First word of the 3rd sentence has a typo, should be changed from "Riven" to "Driven".

"Riven by interethnic conflict, the region's Jewish, Croat, Roma, Serb and Muslim communities suffered huge losses of life," Mxp071 (talk) 14:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 17:18, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Fyi 'riven' is a word. It means to violently pull something apart. 47.232.228.16 (talk) 23:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Edit request December 25, 2024

This section in the article misquotes the source: “Fritz Grobba wrote on 17 July 1942 that al-Husseini himself had visited Oranienburg concentration camp and that "the Jews aroused particular interest among the Arabs. ... It all made a very favorable impression on the Arabs."”

The actual wording in the original source is “By mid-1942 at the latest the Mufti was fully aware of what was happening in the concentration camps. Contrary to the wishes of the AA, three members of al-Kailani’s staff and one member of the Mufti’s staff visited the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen to the north of Berlin. ‘In particular the Jews aroused the interest of the Arabs.’ The visit left the Arabs with a ‘very favourable impression’. According to Obersturmführer Weise, who had been given the post of the Mufti’s liaison officer upon his arrival in Berlin and was thus duty bound to inform the Mufti of the matter, the visit lasted some two hours and had been ‘very satisfactory’: Grobba to Pol. VII, 17 July 1942, IfZ, Nbg. Dok., NG-5446.” Gensicke, Klaus (2011). The Mufti of Jerusalem and the Nazis: The Berlin Years. Vallentine Mitchell. ISBN 978-0-853-03844-3. p 119 footnote 54 (which itself is on p. 169). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.103.173 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

I verified this. Part of the confusion is that the Sachsenhausen camp was close to Oranienburg. However, Gensicke definitely does not say that the Mufti visited either place personally. I'll fix it. Zero 01:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
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