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;READ THIS FIRST! (If you don't then there's a very good chance you're wasting your and/or my time in posting here.)
*New threads belong at the '''''bottom''''' of talk pages (pressing the link at the top, or here, will do this automatically for you). I reserve the right to summarily remove (without responding, and possibly even without reading) any new threads placed here at the top of this talk page.
*'''Discussion directly pertaining to a specific article belongs on that article's talkpage.''' Where such discussion is erroneously posted here, I may move it to article talk (if I'm feeling particularly kind-hearted, or am busting for a good argument), but most likely will simply delete or revert it -- so best to post it where it belongs in the first place.
*I likewise reserve the right to curtail (by reversion, deletion, archiving or otherwise) any thread on this talkpage that I (on my sole discretion) feel has become, or is is likely to be, ''unproductive''. If you object to such curtailment, then by all means ''don't post here''.
*This user defines a "regular", perhaps somewhat idiosyncratically, as somebody who can be trusted to observe policy with sufficient regularity that it is not necessary to "template" (or "tag") them on their user talk. This user therefore regards exhortations to ] as an ] (and as such ''unproductive'').
*Please do not ] your comments unnecessarily. Doing so may result in an ] whilst attempting to respond.
*'''Talkback:'''
#This user has their preferences set to automatically watchlist all articles they edit, and all pages they comment upon. It is therefore '''completely unnecessary''' for you to {{tl|talkback}} this user to tell them that you have replied to a comment.
#Further, there is nothing in that template's description suggests it should be used for XfDs or article talk -- so using it for such pages is inappropriate.
#I would (''fürther fürther'') note that I am under no obligation to respond to each and every comment you make (and there will be times that purposefully avoiding responding would appear to be the most politic course of action).
#Finally (''fürther fürther fürther''), if you keep doing it, I'll probably eventually have to find some more coercive way of convincing you to follow good ] and '''stop'''.
:Ω. (Don't trip over the ] on the way out.)
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== Fictional Multiverses == == Wikibreak ==

I notice that you and I have been going back and forth on the Fictional Multiverses section of the Multiverse page. I'm wondering exactly what your problem is with what I am writing. All I am doing is trying to make sure that Marvel Comics gets some mention (preferably equal coverage) on the topic of comic book multiverses. I even took out unnecessary information and replaced it with a link to another page about it the specific topics. Could you please talk to me about WHY you keep deleting any mention of Marvel comics? If you have a problem with WHAT I wrote, surely you can come up with something better (or some improvement on my writing) that talks about how Marvel uses the concept of the Multiverse.--] (]) 06:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I direct your attention to the two templates that I had placed on this section:
#]: Your additions (like the rest of this section) are unsourced, in violation of ].
#]: "An article about a nonfiction topic should only contain fictional references of historic importance so as to not overshadow the main topic." None of your additions (nor any of the other contents of this section) is of even the ''slightest'' "historic importance" -- they are mere fan trivia.
I am therefore deleting the entire section. If you want to write about fictional parallel universes, you are welcome to do so in the appropriate article: ]. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 07:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

:I'm just trying to be fair here, you're suggesting that I not add to an article without citing, etc. Well, how about you not DELETE AN ENTIRE SECTION without first discussing it. You've done that twice now. All I want you to do is (a) NOT DELETE THE ENTIRE SECTION, fictional multiverses do need some mention, and there is nothing wrong with the way there were mentioned before you deleted it, hence, I undid what you did and (b) talk this through, perhaps come up with some compromise about what to do. As I mentioned before Misplaced Pages prefers that information be presented poorly rather than not at all. So perhaps we can find a better way to CONTINUE presenting the information in a better way, because this back and forth between you and I is getting really ridiculous. And I don't want some bull about you sending me to[REDACTED] GUIDES, I've read them and know what they say. I read them way before you pointed them out and way before I edited the section. I still think the information contained within the section is pertinent to the situation, what problem do you have with the article discussing at the end a few paragraphs on multiverses in fiction, explicitly stating not only at the section header but also within the section itself that it's fiction. Everything I said was true, I even took out the things I said that would have needed references, basically all that is stated within these paragraphs is that the concept of the multiverse is used and, in some cases, how. Why do you insist on making this a big deal? Do you have some sort of personal vendetta against me for undoing your revisions? Keep in mind that[REDACTED] isn't yours, it's everybody's and you don't get to make all the big decisions, if you want to make a change this drastic you should discuss it with some other users first, rather than just doing it. And considering I seem to be the only user who cares enough to do something about it, don't you think you should discuss this rationally before doing something like this. --] (]) 18:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Look, I don't know if you get it, but AS I KEEP MENTIONING, I would like to discuss this before you do anything drastic YET AGAIN. And yes, the Official Handbook does indeed count as a source, apparently you didn't check, or care to check, out the source. Also, it is a work in progress, I will eventually fill out the sources more thoroughly, and will continue to restore the section no matter how many times you delete it. So, until you're willing to discuss this before deleting it again, I will see you then.--] (]) 04:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

:All this because I won't let you insert your Marvel fancruft trivia into a serious science article. You are being ''utterly'' ridiculous. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 04:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

::You don't get it at all, do you? I'm trying to have a rational discussion with you, trying to discuss the potential of making changes, trying to come up with a compromise before any changes are made, but what do you keep doing? You read what I'm saying, take a few words out of it, use them in an "argument" against what I said, then do whatever you want. Please, just consider the idea of a compromise between what you want, entire deletion, and what I want mention of the content (all the content) that's already there. I know you'll completely disregard this, do whatever you want (delete change, whatever) without even considering what I'm saying, but I still feel compelled to bring up the idea of a rational discussion. --] (]) 05:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You know what, you win. I'm tired of this whole thing. You're right. This is a science/fact-based article and the information I'm trying to save belongs somewhere else, in another article about fiction, just as you suggested. I won't interfere or undo your removal of the section again. You have won. P.S. I've removed the information I put in there in the first place and replaced it with a link to the page you suggested in the first place. Congratulations. --] (]) 05:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

== New Religious Science Re-Draft ==

Hi Hrafn...Please see the Religious Science talk page for my re-draft, based on your latest suggestions.
Thanks,
--] (]) 02:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
=== Comments on your Religious Science / Science of Mind edit ===

Hi Hrafn,
Please see the subject talk page for my response to your latest edit.
Thanks again,
--] (]) 04:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
P.S. On a personal note, it's been a pleasure working with you, since you appear to be very objective and scientifically oriented.
=== Please see "Further Tweaking" on Religious Science / Science of Mind talk page ===

Hello again Hrafn...Please see the subject comments.
Thanks,
--] (]) 21:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
=== Response to Further Tweaking is on Religious Science Talk Page ===

Hi Hrafn....please see the subject responses and suggestions.
Thanks again.--] (]) 03:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

== No personal attacks ==

<s>] Hrafn, please do not denigrate other wikipedians, or their views, or their religions. Please do not call them "paranoid" or suggest that they wear tinfoil hats, as you did in . Doing so violates an ironclad Misplaced Pages rule: ].

Also, please stop from the Talk page for ], and with <nowiki>{{hab}}</nowiki> templates. How can we hope to achieve ] if you will not allow other editors to discuss the article and its problems? ] (]) 06:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)</s>

:It is perfectly legitimate to characterise unsubstantiated accusations of persecution as "paranoid", per ]. This template is illegitimate ]ment from an editor whose ] and ] behaviour would lead many to characterise him as a "troll". Deleting pointless ]ing from talkpages is ''explicitly'' permitted per ]. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 07:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)



==Seen this?==
It's a laff riot, too short though. Be sure and read the notes and talk page - you'll find some of the usual suspects there. Anyhow, it cracked me up. ] (]) 20:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

:<Yawn> The usual half-baked crackpottery & poor editing. Really it has to be ''completely'' carpet-chewingly bugfuck for something from Conservapedia to get my attention these days. Now if somebody could get the article to stably claim that Expelled-roused wingnuts are storming science departments and putting preachers in charge of them, or that Stein is the second coming, ''then'' I'd be impressed. :D <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 13:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

== Origin of language ==

Hey Hrafn,

I think your expertise would be amusingly received (by me anyway) at ]. ] (]) 13:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
:Thanks Hrafn, you rule. I feel like I'm the ], you're the missle. Shock and awe. ] (]) 16:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

:Getting close to boilerplate, I don't think a claim was made that I haven't seen a hundred times, and haven't had to rebut a dozen times. Originality is ''not'' their strong suit. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 16:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

== Need a source ==

I think it's true, but it needs a source per WP:PROVEIT. Guess who is my go-to-guy regards all things creationist? ] (]) 19:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

:Added -- the ref actually came from ], due to a timely reminder of its existence in ] by Peter Irons. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 05:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

== Thanks Hrafn ==

I appreciate the rewrite on Maya Angelou at Unity. It is a helpful example of how to best use the news article as a reference.

One question: Is there any problem if I use the cite template rather than the freehand format? Example:
Freehand <ref>, Hillel Italie, Phillyburbs.com, March 29, 2008</ref>
'''versus'''
Template <ref>{{cite news |last=Italie |first=Hillel |url=http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/83-03292008-1510872.html |title=Maya Angelou at 80: Life is still an adventure |publisher= Associated Press|date=2008-03-29 |accessdate=2008-03-29}}</ref>

#Please sign your comments (with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>).
#If you want me to comment on code, you need to surround it with <nowiki><</nowiki>nowiki><nowiki><</nowiki>/nowiki>-tags (otherwise I can't read the code): "Freehand <nowiki><ref>, Hillel Italie, Phillyburbs.com, March 29, 2008</ref></nowiki> '''versus''' Template <nowiki><ref>{{cite news |last=Italie |first=Hillel |url=http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/83-03292008-1510872.html |title=Maya Angelou at 80: Life is still an adventure |publisher= Associated Press|date=2008-03-29 |accessdate=2008-03-29}}</ref></nowiki>"
#I have no strong preference, but tend to use freeform unless there's a compelling reason not to (it's quicker, less likely to make a mistake with & is easier to read the code of).
<font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 04:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::(1) Sorry, I forget my sig a lot it seems then have to go back and add it. Bad habit I am trying to break. (2) I didn't know about ''nowiki'' (there's much to learn here) so I appreciate your showing me. (3) I think in time I will learn the freehand form, for now the template is helpful to remind me of any fields I need to use. Thanks again. ] (]) 06:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

==A half-baked accusation==
Hrafn, We have been watching your posts. It seems clear that you are a hater of New Thought have a serious personal problem with these psychologies, faiths, or philosophys etc.. Since you have a continued personal interest against these groups, you should be banned from commenting or vandalizing these pages within Wiki. I personally am not a member of these groups or faiths, but it is apparent that you hate or dislike certain religious groups who are affiliated with new thought, religious science, or Christian based success writers. We will continue to report your vandalizing or removing information related to famous new thought authors, faiths, sects, or important organizations related to new thought. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Thank you for this gross violation of ]. I have nothing against the ] movement, but a strong dislike of badly written, badly sourced (and especially completely unsourced) articles. There are a large number of these in the New Thought area, so for the last month or two I've been making an effort to prune them down to what is ], ] & ]. If these "authors, faiths, sects, or important organizations" are "famous", you should have no problem finding ] to verify this information. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 04:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

== delete entire YEC article before you get WP sued ==

I have no associations with icr.org or its principals. But, you are going to get WP and yourself sued if you continue to believe WP's rules supercede laws regarding defamation. ] (]) 05:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

:Your legal prophesies of doom are about as credible as your reliance of Biblical quotations was. Far more prominent people have said far worse things about the ICR in far more prominent fora. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 05:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

== Thin ice ==
{{hat|reason=Take it to the RS & BLP noticeboards}}
Hi! Listen, I am as sympathetic as the next man to keeping creationists from misusing WP, but you are not helping. ] is firm on the subject, and it doesn't hurt to keep things off. Can you please do so for the period that this is being discussed? --<span style="font-family:Georgia">] (])</span> 11:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

:No, you are ]ing -- a book '''''IS NOT''''' a "living person" (so ] is widely regarded as a ]. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
::Widely where? and that part of it that is merely a usenet archive is by our standards ''not''.
::Incidentally, please do read ] sometime to count the ways in which you are wrong.
::Apologies accepted between 0900 and 1700 hours UTC by appointment. --<span style="font-family:Georgia">] (])</span> 12:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry RR, you are incorrect. I do not think you are understanding things here. And tell me how a review of a book violates ]?--] (]) 12:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


:Read the damn policy, people! As and when a review implies negative statements about a living person, BLP comes into play, regardless of the nominal subject of the article! I don't believe either of you have been some of our most productive and useful editors without apparent familiarity with this policy! --<span style="font-family:Georgia">] (])</span> 12:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


I am sure you realize under our new more stringent policies on ] and ] you can get in huge trouble for a statement like ''Read the damn policy, people!'' So what policy are you referring to? I did read the policy. People that are notable and experts are themselves reliable sources, even if they publish this themselves in a blog or a self published book. And I still do not know who is supposedly being defamed and how? Behe is being defamed because a reviewer did not like his book? What on earth?--] (]) 12:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
:Oh, report me, do, because it really begins to sound like you haven't read it carefully, if at all. Self-published sources should not be used for contentious material; statements in a review that go towards being statements about the person who wrote the book are subject to BLP; etc., etc. See ] for some really dicey problems that this brings up. --<span style="font-family:Georgia">] (])</span> 12:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
{{hab}}

== Vandalism on ]? ==
] -- from where it should not have left in the first place. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 03:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC) ]


== Why did you revert without discussion ==

I was rewritting the section like the plate said neede. If you disagreed with the revision you should tell me which parts and why, not erase the whole thing <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Because it is unsourced & most probably ]. Source it or lose it. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 05:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I added sources, not the Bible, one at a time, but you earased them when you violated the three-revert rule <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:christianactionforisrael.org is hardly a ] for anything beyond their own viewpoint (a 'primary source' per ], that requires a reliable ''secondary source'' for any interpretation). In any case, you provide it only as the source for a ''single sentence'' out of a multi-paragraph addition. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 05:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

:A source that doesn't even verify the statement cited to it, I might add -- as it makes no mention of "Jesus" or "chosen people". <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 05:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

== YEC ==

Hi. You said that the "cited source explicitly states Justin Martyr." very well, it does now that I look... but I didn't take away without thought, and I did add Clement of Alexandria to the list :). Just fyi, Justin Martyr is very unclear on where he stood. Both sides appeal to him. Even your source has to use vague language like "assumes" and "implies" for Justin's view. And that's only talking about the text that says "with the Lord one day is like a thousand." Even YEC believe that so that's not saying much. Cheers, ] ] 17:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
==Religious Science==

Hey, through out the Science of Mind text the Bible is referenced Teachings of Jesus, New and Old Testament. One of Ernest Holmes (founder) most popular books - besides the SOM text - is The Hidden Power of the Bible. He believed Truth is Truth and we are open at the top as well as the SOM teachings. Take care.] (]) 18:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

:Does this religious babble mean anything, let alone have any relevance for editing ]? Misplaced Pages isn't really big on revealed ]s. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 18:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

:But in any case, as Malaclypse The Younger said<s><nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki></s><small>]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 03:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC) ]</small>, "Even false things are true." Fnord! <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 18:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

== Tagging FAs ==

Please don't . If you want to see another cite added, either add one yourself or take it to the talk page. Tags such as that can get the article delisted as a FA, and that's a bad thing. ] (]) 19:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
:I have a rough draft on Falsifiability and evolution that includes Daubert and ID if you want to look at it. It might help you. Email me. --] (]) 22:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

A few points:
# The paragraph in question was ''already'' tagged -- I merely replaced a tag for something I ''could'' rectify with a tag for something I couldn't.
# The article uses "critics say" ''far'' too liberally and at times loosely. On many occasions it is at least cited (and on some even includes explicit identification in the article of some of the critics), but the tagged point is not the only time that it lacks even a citation. But even cited, its overuse cheapens it.
#I can see nothing in ] to indicate that a tag would precipitate an immediate review of FA status, let alone its loss. I would suspect that it would only become a problem if tags were allowed to accumulate and/or go uncorrected for long periods.
##Given that the tag I ''replaced'' had been there since ''January'', it would seem to be far more problematic than my own one. If tagging an article is as ''dire'' as you make out, why wasn't ''that'' tag corrected long since?
#I think it would be more accurate to state that FAs shouldn't ''need'' to be tagged than that they shouldn't be tagged. Forbidding tagging when needed would appear to be promoting the ''appearance'' of robustness above the promotion of genuine robustness. I will however attempt to keep my tagging of FAs to a ''minute'' minimum (but will not revert a legitimate tag to an FA if I realise that I've I inadvertently added one, as was the case here).
<font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 04:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

== Multiverse ==

Why are you assuming ] here? Please ]. ] (]) 13:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

:The first version was ''clearly'' SYNTH/OR/unverfiable -- as the quaranic verse said nothing about Dunyah. The new version largely avoids these troubles, but at the cost of ''not actually saying anything about multiverses'' -- and is thus '''irrelevant''' to the article. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 13:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

== Note ==

I removed the Mathis-Miller comment from the Expelled article . We all know this article is long enough as-is, and since this note is more about Miller (or Mathis) than the film, I removed it. Mahalo. --] 16:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

:It is about the film in that it indicates the producers willingness to exaggerate the religion-science conflict aspect of it & their inability to accept those who accept evolution as being genuinely religious. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 17:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

::Mahalo, Hrafn. I was a bit confused. Thanks for rewording. --] 18:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

==Transitional Fossils==
Thanks for your redit of my materail on transitional fossils and punctuated equilibrium. I feel it is much better now. Regards

] (]) 07:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

== Expelled ==

Re: . Not that I disagree with the archiving, but I'm a bit miffed by the edit summary. When I added my comment, the thread was not archived (though it probably should have been...). --] (]) 17:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

:Actually it had been archived for some time -- NCDave simply decided to so he could continue on soapboxing. Sorry you got caught up in it. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 17:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

::No worries! --] (]) 19:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hrafn, I don't think there's any need to put these kinds of templates on people's pages, particularly someone who has been editing for three years. If we're concerned about off-topic discussion, there's a lot of work that could be done all around. Of course, you can also tell someone you think their comment is off topic without putting a template on their page saying that they'll be blocked, you know? ] (]) 15:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

:Mackan79: I no longer give the proverbial "pair of fetid dingo's kidneys" what you think. Your 'thoughts' to date have been a stream of ludicrous defences of a ], ] and '''''throughly objectionable''''' editor, whose editing career has been marked by lengthy blocks for ''egregiously'' poor behaviour and a ''stuborn'' inability to learn from his past mistakes. Given that I have absolutely ''zero'' opinion of your judgement on this matter, I would suggest that in future you keep these thoughts to yourself -- as my calling a ] a spade about what I think of your thoughts may offend. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 15:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
::I think you and I were restoring the wholesale deletions made by that fox loving woman. Did we catch it all? It's difficult for me to figure it out...] (]) 18:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

:::I believe so. I just reflexively reverted her last deletion when I saw it on my watchlist (as clearly illegitimate), and only later noticed the earlier one you reverted). I wish people would ''read'' policy before they cited it for such half-baked edits. :( <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 18:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I am easily confused when it comes to massive deletions over several edits. It *looks* ok right now. Maybe we got it all. Thanks ] (]) 20:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

== Are you familiar with Michael Dowd ? ==

As you are an excellent debater on the evolutionist/creationist subject I was just curious if you were familiar with the work of ]? You can download his book for free at his website. I ran across his work while doing New Thouhgt research and while I like the way he presents his materials I am not qualified to critique it (which would be a ] anyways) however he seems to have good credentials and a lot of interesting sources. Just FYI. -- ] (]) 18:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
:I am very familiar with Michael. I met him and had a long talk with him. I previewed his book before it was published and he asked me to be one of those endorsing the work on the book jacket. I sent him several pages of comments. I have several more I did not send him. I have thought about writing an article about this material. It is sort of "New Age Feel Good" material, but it is not particularly accurate scientifically. Maybe I will dig out my notes and write an article about it here, or expand one or two of our current articles.--] (]) 18:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

:I'm probably too far off the target audience (in that my personal spirituality is ''radically'' non-theistic) to give a meaningful opinion -- it'd be like a deep-sea fish reviewing a book on mountaineering. But here's the and . Hope this helps. :) <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 19:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks for the article links. Interesting reading, including the comments left by readers. The person who gave me the head's up on Rev Dowd is a New Thought (specifically Science of Mind) adherent who is an '''''aetheist'''''! She believes there are laws similar to gravity that can be manipulated by mental energy. She does not believe in God as an intelligent being, but she does believe (loosely paraphrased - wished I had recorded the conversation) this:
<blockquote>
::''It is possible that the universe itself is one -- or more -- enormous organisms of vastly intricate complexity. If we are made of billions of atoms and molecules then why could there not be organisms made of billions of solar systems and galaxies? We just don't have a clear enough grasp on the science to know how these things work so we are fools to say it cannot be so. Imagine a universal amoeba -- if you will -- who's "biological" systems include solar-fusion and entropy. As the white blood cells and defensive antibodies in our immune systems can display quasi-intelligence by reacting to bacteria in the bloodstream, then is it not concievable that we, humans, are like those same cells within the body of a universal amoeba? It is difficult to imagine something so vast, yet it is equally difficult to imagine the vast number of atoms, dna strands or even just the white blood cells inside you now. If there is an organism which we are a part of, and that organism has been on a journey of evolution beginning with the Big Bang, then we are merely evolved cells inside that organism. Thus it makes sense to me when Rev Dowd says "When you look through a telescope to the stars you ARE the universe looking at itself".
</blockquote>
::This lady is a biogenetic researcher at a respected lab so I asked if I could quote her and she said I could use the ideas but not her name. She did not wish to become the target of ridicule at work or of "Fundamentalist Aetheists". To tell the truth her theories vaguely remind me of an old ] episode but you do have to wonder if from a scientific viewpoint she could be right? Are we just complex cogs in an intergalactic biological machine? -- ] (]) 20:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

== ] ==

Need you back watching. DI whitewashing by Ducks. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 07:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

:I must admit that I view Marks' 'duckishness' as somewhat marginal as yet -- his involvement seems to have been limited to date to one website, one ID conference & one interview for a movie (most of the grandstanding over the EIL was from Dembski himself). I would also consider him to be a fairly obscure ID proponent, rather than a "noted" one (his ''Expelled'' appearance may raise his profile however). To say that he's "been involved in several of the more notable controversies" is a definite exaggeration -- he's only been involved in a 'persecution' controversy & ''Expelled'''s repackaging of this 'persecution' theme. The problem with documenting the IDM, is that its 'big tent' strategy makes the actual edge of the tent quite indistinct & generates a considerable 'penumbra' of ambiguous supporters/fellow travellers. I'll give you what help I can, but would suggest caution. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 07:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

:And the only report of the conference (by far the most solid piece of evidence to date) that I know of is a blog-report which is excluded per ]. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 07:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

::I just did a fresh Google-search & it seems Marks has been kind enough to put the Wistar appearance on his CV. I've reincluded it. :) <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 08:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

==idle chit chat of no consequence==

I've been following the ID movement for 5 years or so and what's interesting is all my reading has been primarily from the legal, scientific, or academic viewpoint, well and I read alot of ID wingnuts too. What Expelled is doing it bringing ID to the masses and it's fascinating to see the reaction from the mainstream press who typically don't seem to know anything about science or evolution. It's one thing for the science community to call Expelled a shitty propaganda piece but to see the media come to the same conclusion is an interesting development that I didn't expect. Anyhow, I'm rambling but from one ID observer to another I find these mainstream reviews to be an interesting glimpse of how the ID position is viewed by an audience that has no dog in the fight. The DI is going to be very busy monkeys as they try to spin every major news outlet in America. I'm having a ball watching all this unfold. PS - I'm in the market for a Ben Stein bobble head! Cheers. ] (]) 14:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

:I suspect most journos know very little science, so most of ID's arguments go over their heads. They would generally however have a reasonably well-developed propaganda-filter (journos who believe everything they're told soon get made to look like idiots), so the heavy-handedness of ''Expelled'' is probably ringing all sort of alarm-bells as well as irritating them in a 'how stupid do you think we are?' sort of way. I wouldn't be surprised if playing Lennon's ''Imagine'' over communist parades severely pissed off a few of the more trendy-lefty ones as well. This may end up backfiring for ID movement, if a mainstream 'this is bull' effect outweighs the 'invigorating the credulous base' one. I'm sure far more people read movie reviews than read the science page. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 14:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

::Yeah backfire is a very good word for it and I think you're on the money regarding Imagine being pimped. I'm having a blast watching this unfold. ] (]) 14:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

:::From the viewpoint of this conversation, is interesting -- the writer clearly is neutral-to-apathetic on the science-creationism controversy, but equally clearly very anoyed at the film's blatant dishonesty & manipulativeness. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 13:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

==Your participation requested==
(Cross-posted to several users' talk pages)

Your participation on ] would be appreciated. ] (]) 19:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

== Civility warning ==
] & ] sender <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 04:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC) ]

== Politicization of Science ==
Does anyone "own" a Misplaced Pages page? I spent a fairly long time verifying my sources and posting to the discussion area to justify my position and it appears you have simply reverted my contributions. I am surpised by your lack of intellectual honesty here. ] (]) 14:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

:You didn't cite a single source in your edits on the article and your comments on talk on Thomas Paine etc was off-topic. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 14:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

::I see. I'm very sorry about the appareance of purposeful valdalism--I certainly did not mean to do that--I will avoid restructuring articles in the future until I have learned more. It's very difficult to determine what changes and reversions you have made to my contributions. It seems like you just reverted everything to a previous edit. In the future I will carefully make small additions or also add entire new sections so that there will be less confusion.

::Clearly attribution and citation are crucial aspects here. Are we prohibitted from expressing our own opinions or interpretations of the facts as we see them? (I can't imagine where that would end except in the hands of the most powerful editor (administrator?).) It would seem to diminish Misplaced Pages's effectiveness for fairly clarifying all the various sides of an argument. I will work harder to give third-party sources for my contributions--but I can't promise that my own interpretations won't creep in.

::I must disagree with you about the relevance of Thomas Paine to this discussion. He advocated diminishing government involvement in all aspects of life, by a simple extension of his reasoning it could be convincignly argued that he would have supported less government involvement in science given the current state of affairs. I've contributed elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, but this is obviously a controversial topic so I will be held to a higher standard. In my edits elsewhere I have regularly provided references, however, here I wrote mostly off-the-cuff. I also mentioned troubling changes that I've seen in the article and the current state of the global warming controversy which appear to silence dissenting opinion; this appears to stake out a particular position which is why I included the various POV tags. Is there some standard for citations that I need to know about? (This appears to be harder than writing a traditional book...at least when it's done precisely!)

::I don't really grasp why social and media pressure would not be considered of equal (or even greater) impact upon the Politicization of Science as legal and economic influence. However, I added those for the sake of completeness, not to diminish the validity of either legal or economic influences. I hope that I can work with you to improve this article because it's a subject about which I am passionate. I've spent thirty years in the classroom trying to inculcate GOOD SCIENCE into my students (independent of either religious or dogmatic influences) while various administrators and politicians have been systematically undermining my efforts...Cheers! ] (]) 15:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Please read ] & ]. Article talkpages are for discussing improvements to the article, ''not'' for discussing the article's topic generally. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 16:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

== April 2008 ==
<s>] Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we must insist that you ] while interacting with other editors{{#if:Politicization of science|, which you did not on ]}}. Take a look at the ] to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|Thank you.}}<!-- Template:uw-agf1 --> ''There is no hurry. The inserted material is non-controversial. Your stridency is unwarranted.'' ] (]) 17:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)</s>

:Last I checked ] does not over-rule ]: "All quotations and any material '''challenged or likely to be challenged''' should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation" -- which you '''''repeatedly''''' violated, over a three-week period. I am therefore striking this spurious & ill-considered template. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 17:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

===Bad faith editing===
]
{{hat|reason=A tedious discussion that was going around in circles}}
I would further point out that I assumed good faith '''''THREE BLOODY WEEKS AGO''''' when I simply your unsourced additions, rather than removing them. How did you respond? '''''YOU DID NOTHING AT ALL!''''' When ''another'' editor challenged and removed this material you '''''acted in bad faith''''' by reverting it back in. When I re-removed this unsourced material (per ]) you repeatedly reverted me likewise (more bad faith). It was only when you found that the material wouldn't be allowed back in without sources that you actually got off your backside did anything about it. Your own actions on this issue have been in bad faith throughout, so you have '''''no right whatsoever''''' for ''further'' assumption of good faith. So your templating of me has, not surprisingly, made me ''very'' angry. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 17:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

:You need to take a chill pill, man, or you will find yourself in unfortunate places. I know from personal experience. Anyway, the cites are in. No harm, no foul. Peace. In the meantime, take a gander at ]. ] (]) 19:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

::No. It is you who needs to read ], given your ''over-reaction'' in templating me after my assumption of good faith ran out after ''three weeks'' of procrastination on your part. And I diasagree that multiple policy-violative reverts & a spurious templating amount to "no harm". <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 03:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Wow. Just wow. Consider taking a ] before you end up railroaded. These outbursts you're making indicate that I wasn't wrong in my suspicions about your state of mind. ] (]) 16:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
''You'' templated me after three weeks of ] wore out, but ''I'm'' the one with the problem? Yesterday I was mad. Today I'm only bored & sick of the sight of you. Consider a career in politics. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 16:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Whoa you guys. You both are on the same side of most issues. And I do not want to lose either one of you over something minor. Although I have definitely crossed swords with SA before, plenty (and a little with Hrafn too), I respect you both tremendously. Let's try to settle these things more calmly. I do not know what the issue in this case is, but if we fight amongst ourselves, the FRINGErs will own our butts.--] (]) 16:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Filll: I respond to how I'm treated and logical & factual basis statements/actions, not 'whose side' people are on. Thus I will slam a science-boaster who acts unreasonably/illogically/arbitrarily. That does not mean that I won't cooperate with them (or a FRINGEr who is having a rare attack of logic and/or fact) the next day. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 16:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

:Since there is no objective standard that you've outlined for what I did that was "unreasonable", "illogical", or "arbitrary", I can only assume that you were offended by my actions. For that I apologize. I have worked on some articles for years: eventualism is the name of the game for Misplaced Pages. Three weeks is your arbitrary timeline, not anyone else's. And, from my perspective, it is bad faith to remove content that is ] without explanation provided other than "I can do it because it's been three weeks and someone else did it before me." I note that you did not remove the bits on Galileo despite them still being uncited, for example. ] (]) 13:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

'Eventualism' is merely one school of thought on wikipedia, and not one that finds much support in ]. My timeline was not arbitrary -- challenged (as ''another'' editor did by removing it) material ''must'' to be sourced, per ]. I did not remove the Galileo information, because it had not been so challenged (nor was it newly introduced, so I could not know if its creator was still around, so allowing a longer time period is in any case reasonable). But even without this, I would consider 3 weeks ample (and in fact probably over-generous) time to allow newly-introduced & templated material to be sourced before deleting it. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 14:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

:What you are basically saying then is you don't give people the benefit of the doubt, nor do you actually make an effort to communicate. ''You'' didn't give me three weeks and ''you'' didn't make any comments about what ''you'' thought of the content in question. You were just acting as a intransigent edit warrior who only aggravated the situation and really has no sense for how to deal with other people without behaving like an ass. I'll also note that the material was "challenged" in the edit summary for ''relevance'', not for ]. Different story entirely. Just so you know, this kind of posturing and hairsplitting is very unbecoming. ] (]) 19:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

::'''No.''' What I am "basically saying" is that I gave you three weeks of "benefit of the doubt" and only stopped doing so when you became in ''explicit'' violation of ], that I made "an effort to communicate via the unrefsect-template (at the start of the three weeks) -- which you ignored. Once ] was explicitly violated (because another editor had challenged your material), the only reasonable response from you was to hold off reintroducing the material until it could be sourced, and there was very little left to be discussed. If I knew that you were going to make such an almighty fuss about this quite routine application of ], I'd have templated you for each of your infractions and you'd now probably be on ] ("last warning"). Stop blaming me for your own violation of policy. "Benefit of the doubt" does not mean that you get to keep unsourced material in the article indefinitely -- it means that ''as a courtesy'' (not as a right), I ''would previously have'' allowed you a reasonable amount of time to rectify your omission. Given your discourtesy in templating me, I think you have forfeited much of that courtesy. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 19:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

:::You didn't "give me" three weeks. You acted after someone else acted and then postdicted your claim based on a three-week timeline. The unrefsect template is also on the Galileo section which still has not been removed, so there is no indication that this is somehow a fair-game declaration. There is no violation of policy when you add verifiable content. There is also nothing wrong with <nowiki>{{hangon}}</nowiki> objections to drastic maneuvers. Good day. ] (]) 17:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
{{hab}}

===Bad faith editing, indeed: ]===
]-violating rants from ThomHImself, an editor with a ] on ], removed. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 08:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC) ]

== Potential defamation in biography of Robert J. Marks II ==

<s>] You have made an edit {{#if:Robert J. Marks II|to ]}} that could be regarded as ]. Please do not restore this material to the article or its talk page. If you restore this material to the article or its talk page once more, you will be blocked for disruption. See ].<!-- Template:Blp2 -->] (]) 21:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)</s>

:No, this is ''actual'' ] by a ] editor, against the ] & against the facts. I am striking this spurious template as ]ment. As I said on ], if you diasgree with this consensus, take it to the RS or BLP noticeboards. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 06:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

==Over-linking==
I can see what you mean by 'over-linking' in my passing edit of the page for Simon Keynes, I was in two minds about it myself, as it obviously verges on the pedantic - I accept that it was probably a lapse of judgement, but I was guided by the understanding that more links and citations were to be welcomed, when useful. There being a page for 'History', I suppose I decided it was useful! I just had a quick look for clarification on how this issue of 'over-linking' should be approached, but didn't see any: any thoughts? Many thanks. ] (]) 11:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

:No, on wikilinking the policy is definitely not a blanket "more is better" and I think there's even a specific recommendation somewhere against wikilinking adjoining words/phrases (as it will be unclear to the reader what is being linked). In this specific situation, the link was to 'History of Anglosaxon England' & presenting it as linking only to 'Anglosaxon' was misleading and the second link to the very general subject of 'history' superfluous, and therefore not useful. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 11:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

::Ok. But I'm not sure you really understood what I said. I quite clearly didn't suggest that there was a blanket "more is better" policy for wikilinking; placing two links together isn't obviously misleading, as individual links are highlighted as such when selected, I thought I was simply following what I've seen on other pages; and, as you clearly have a strong opinion on this, I thought you would be a good person to ask for help. Obviously I was wrong, and your brusque and unfriendly tone makes me feel sorry that I bothered. Never mind. ] (]) 11:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
==Weirdness at ]==

Have you seen the new picture of PZ that is used in the article? I cannot figure out which edit changed this so I'm not sure how to revert it. Would you mind taking a look or advising me how to correct this? ] (]) 18:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

:It isn't the most flattering of shots, I would agree. However, as I'm not a regular on that article, it is 'somebody else's problem'. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 18:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

== Autoarchiving problem for Talk:Expelled ==
The bot archiving ] has gone wonky again.
* "(cur) (last) 18:07, 23 April 2008 MiszaBot I (Talk | contribs | block) m (600,125 bytes) ''(Archiving 6 thread(s) (older than 7d) to ], ], ], [[Talk:Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed/Archiv)'' (undo)"
Checking the page histories, it's put one thread each on Archives 4–9, declaring them to be "(ARCHIVE FULL)".
<br/>] (]) 15:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

:Ummm ... '''ouch!''' I had been attempting to deduce the bot's intended functioning (and thus most appropriate settings) from its past behaviour (there's nothing in the documentation about it archiving to multiple archives) -- but this has me completely flummoxed. I think it's time to pass the problem on to its owner, I'll leave a comment on their talkpage. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 15:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

== ] ==

I changed the my article and removed the tag, if it is still all wrong you can put it back. But I thought it looked much better. Thanks, ]] 07:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:Kindly stop removing notability templates without '''''FIRST''''' ensuring that the article meets ] and/or ]. I am getting heartily sick of your spurious removal of this template. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 07:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't know. ]] 19:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

==Creation evolution controversy==
I see that you've recently reverted the statement regarding the survey on the basis of "highly ambiguous" and "synth". I'm confused how you see it that way. Could you clarify this? ] (]) 13:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:It's covered in painful detail at ]. The author in question thinks that these poll results point to a compatibilist middle-ground between science and creationism, whereas they're merely lumping together conflicting TE & ID positions under 'God-guided evolution'. At least one of the polls he cites is the notorious one which reports that at least some people accept that ''both'' "that human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life" and "that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years" are at least probable. If you don't take this ] interpetation of them, then they're really not saying anything important enough to include in the lead. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 14:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, I'm sorry I was just reading back through some of it, and didn't realize the dispute reached that far back at first. Though there are three sources identified, it looks like they each speak of the same polls. Each respondent could only give one answer. The two choices were distinct: so roughly 40% in the latest poll indicated "created in present form" and ''another'' 40% indicated "evolved yet god guided". I agree it's important to be careful not to impose or attribute any particular ideology into the latter group. It's not necessarily subscribers of ID there, though some may be. A good argument can be made I think that figures for ''each'' group ("created in present form" creationists, "God-guided it" evolutionists, and "God played no part" evolutionists) do have some corollary to the article, especially given the views held by people in science and academia are described. Isn't it relevant to present some gauge of the POVs that people themselves have aligned with in the creation vs evolution dispute? ] (]) 15:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Their "corollary to the article" is very ambiguous, and would require a heroic level of ] in order to nail it down. Are OECs "God created man in present form" or "Man developed, but God had no part in process"? IDers would almost certainly be in with TEs in "Man developed, with God guiding", but the two traditionally split into the Creationist & Science camps respectively. The polls give a false impression of a centre of gravity in the middle, which just doesn't exist -- as the "Man developed, with God guiding" does not act as a cohesive (let alone coherent) group on this issue. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 18:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

== What? ==

With the ] article, what do I do to fix it? I have found references to over five different ]-related sites, got much information, and redid the article. Can you tell me what needs to be done so I finish the article. Thanks, ]] 00:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

:The references for this article is a couple of baseball stats sites (there was a third, but as it was only to a list of blog-posts, I deleted it per ]) -- hardly "significant coverage". However, checking ], I find that their notability standards are very low: "Have appeared in at least one game in any one of the following active major leagues: Major League Baseball", so I'm removing the notability template -- and consider it to be "somebody else's problem". <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 02:53, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

== warning ==

<s>] You currently appear to be engaged in an ]{{#if:Talk:Creation and evolution in public education|&#32; according to the reverts you have made on ]}}. Note that the ] prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the ]. If you continue, '''you may be ] from editing'''. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a ] among editors. If necessary, pursue ]. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|}}<!-- Template:uw-3rr --> ] (]) 04:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)</s>

Spurious warning, from notoriously ] & ] editor, who is edit-warring to restore ] discussions that have been archived/userfied by ], stricken. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 05:34, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

== ] ==

I'm going to be using my last revert. POV warriors are showing up to whitewash her article, removing her Intelligent design support. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 01:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

:<Sigh> That edit-war magnet again? I'll keep an eye on it. But I must admit to being still sick of the sight of the article, post-Moulton. It has never done anything ''but'' generate more heat than light. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 02:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

::Look what it's done for me? A bunch of attacks by the those who are looking to get rid of one of the NPOV warriors. :) I hate the article. I should have removed it from my watch list, but I'm trying to keep the AIDS denialists in line, so I keep watch over any science-denialist. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 06:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

==books added by COI editor==
I have re-added one or two of those added by Tipeditor, based on clear importance and relevance in fields I work on. When a publisher adds such books, though we usually remove those added as references about a subject, I do not think we should remove the ones written by the subject that were not previously listed--though we should of course remove the excessive linking. ''']''' (]) 14:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

== CFD ==

Glad you dug up the last CFD on the Scientific Dissent From Darwinism cat. I was thinking there had been one, but wasn't sure where to start looking. ] (]) 05:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

:I cheated >:) I've been on sufficiently few such discussions that it shows up on my summary. A handy tool for giving an impression of an editor's broad-brushstrokes editing patterns, incidentally. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 06:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

== ] ==

It's fine with me if you try to patch up the evidence for the Dembski-Marks paper, but do it in the version without the claims about Marks that are now unsourced. Note also that I have FIXED several broken links, and you are reverting over the constructive editing I've done. ] (]) 07:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

:Thank you for your kind permission. Your assorted rants, hand-wavings and general legerdemain on what is or isn't sourced has pretty much run together in my mind, so I neither know nor care what you currently consider to be "unsourced". If a link is broken, then tag it (<nowiki>{{Citation broken}}</nowiki>). If you simply edit-war to delete it, there's a good chance that the reason you want it removed will be lost in the 'heat of battle'. I would further appreciate it if you cease and desist these completely unnecessary and generally abrasive forays onto my talkpage. The page for discussing ] is ]. Further attempts to intrude it on here will therefore be deleted without comment. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 07:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

== ICR Edit ==

Thanks for the heads up on my edit to ]. I'm still figuring things out. ] (]) 20:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

== Alister McGrath ==

Hi ]. The unexplained change that you recently reverted at ] should probably be upheld. It looks like one recently arrived editor is going around adding the Australian church reference (often to semi-irrelevant articles), while another (the one you reverted) is undoing this change. I've got to nip off now, but if you have the time/inclination, you might like to investigate. Cheers, --] (]) 14:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

:You're quite probably right. The reason I reverted was that the ref was at least superficially relevant and no explanation given for its removal. It wasn't even labelled as a revert, which would have let me know who/when the ref was added -- so I had nothing further to go on. I'll look closer. <font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 15:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

==So much==
Of this goes on in less watched items it is hard to keep up with it all ]] 15:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

== Expelled re-write ==

Better to step back and see what they come up with. No point in getting into fights there. Make some constructive comments, but don't get too invested in it. ] (]) 15:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Send me an email please. ] (]) 02:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

==Here's some work to review==
Hrafn, instead of focusing on forcing citations for relatively harmless statements, viz. the recent contretemps in ], why not set your sights on some extreme violations of ]? ] has been writing articles completely without citations, often by inserting large chunks of copyvio into his new articles. Check out his User Page, where he has these completely-without-reference-or-citation new articles listed. ], ] and I have been undoing some of the damage, but this seems like something you could really sink your teeth into. ] (]) 12:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
:Hrafn, I apologize for the intemperate tone of the above notice. However, we could really really use your talents addressing Egyptzo's works. Please? ] (]) 20:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I had a quick look at his work when you first posted on this topic. I can see two problems getting involved:
#Going on a ] crusade on the basis of ''authorship'' (rather than simply general topic), raises questions of ] (and even potentially ]). It is essentially stating that the editor in question is not to be trusted. It is something I'd generally only contemplate (and then only on a limited basis) where I'd seen a pattern of egregiously poor editing. At first glance, the examples of this editor's work that I looked at look to have at least superficial evidence of sourcing in the majority of them. This sourcing, combined with the fact that I know very little about Hittite battles (and similar subjects) -- so don't really know a solid source from a fringe one, mean that I would be on rather less than solid ground in challenging them. Unsolid ground is not a good starting position for what could turn into a contentious issue.
#I don't know if my asbestos underwear is rated for ''two'' firestorms at once -- so caution would suggest waiting for the New Thought issues to play out (with a bit of respite afterwards) before diving into another controversy. In any case, I don't want ]-enforcement work to dominate my contributions to[REDACTED] (as they have been in recent days).
:<font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 02:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
::Well, I can understand that you don't want to be seen as harrassing this user.
::However, I do believe that he has put '''''any''''' references in any of the articles he has created.
::Thanks for considering. ] (]) 03:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

== Mail ==

You have it.--] (]) 15:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

==Politicization of science‎==
Hi there. Will you drop by the Talk page to see my proposal for the leading paragraph and continue the discussion, and please, let' wait for other editors to comment. ] (]) 02:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
:: Sorry, I wrote the wrong link in my comment. I really appreciate if you take a look at Carl Sagan & Co. role in ], which is what I intended to write originally. I can provided more sources that the ones found in the Wiki article, particularly the book "The Discovery of Global Warming" by Spencer R. Weart, from Harvard University Press (reliable source) has a very interesting account of this use of incomplete science to promote a change in political agenda. Just in case, Mr. Weart is pro GW. Also, I will appreciate if you refrain to edit my comments, on purpose I left the proposed lead in full paragraphs length to highlighted from our comments (I undid your edit on my comment).] (]) 04:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

== An open letter to Hrafn on my talkpage ==

Hrafn, I have posted a new topic on my talk page which offers criticizms on some of your recent actions. To me this is a very serious matter so please consider this the first (and hopefully last) step of ]. We can and have agreed to disagree in the past and I feel, while difficult in this case, if we can both ] we can talk this out too. -- ] (]) 22:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

:And I have replied there. I doubt if this is likely to come to dispute resolution for the simple reason that you have, as yet, stated no legitimate grievance with my behaviour under policy. And two links to the "open letter" (that you apparently want to be open), including one in the section title, is a tad excessive. Also, the ''correct'' way to wikilink to it would have been: ], not an embedded cite to the URL.<font face="Antiqua, serif">]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub></font> 02:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

== ] ==

I guess we're all part of the anti-ID cabal. I just thought I was opposed to anti-science BS, but hey that's just me. LOL. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 19:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

== Here are two articles that could use help ==

Hrafn, the following articles are completely unreferenced and contain significant POV:

*]
*]

FYI, ] (]) 16:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

:Then template them (as I just did). It's hardly rocket science -- and hardly something you need me for. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 16:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

::We all have our specialities. If you find an article on ] that needs work, let me know. You know what templates to use, how to push, etc etc, so I thought I'd bring them to your attention. That's all, ] (]) 22:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

== Astrotheology ==
{{hat|Accusations based on ignoring evidence}}
I noticed you marked every single sentence in what I wrote with some random clarify, dubious, whatever tag. I also noticed that even though there are refs, you still marked them. Your tagging was obviously careless. If you wish to contribute to wikipedia, I suggest to grab the source and verify and improve the summaries. &mdash; ] 07:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

:Virtually every sentence you wrote in that section is garbled jargon-ridden verbiage. I gave detailed explanations in hideen comments in the text, and have also posted them on talk -- so your claim that "tagging was obviously careless" is a baseless violation of ]. I suggest that the entire section is meaningless unencyclopedic verbiage and '''needs to be removed'''. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 07:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

::It seemed right after I posted this on your page you also posted nearly at the same time the reply on the article's talk page. Clearly, that is your lack of ]. &mdash; ] 07:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

:::What part of "I gave detailed explanations in hideen comments in the text" did you fail to understand? "Clearly" I don't give the proverbial pair of fetid dingo's kidneys, about your accusations, based on ignoring evidence ''that was available at the time you first posted''. I am archiving this pointless thread and will delete any further baseless accusations without comment. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 07:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
{{hab}}

== Sheldrake ==

If you wait more than a minute, rather than deleting it repeatedly, I can reliably source the section. The experiment was a joint one with a "normal" scientist and the results weren't favorable to Sheldrake (according to the mainstream view). It's a notable experiment that discounts his "hypothesis". As such, it belongs in the article. If the problem you have with it is the source, that's no problem. Just change the source. You don't have to delete good, non-OR information just because it's at the moment unreliably sourced. I'm in the process of fixing it. --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 06:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:Then source it to something other than ''Rivista di Biologia'' '''before you restore it'''. That source has already been highly contentious, so restoring it is likewise contentious. It is currently 'bad, unreliably sourced' information that should not be given ] weight, ''unless and until'' it can be reliably sourced. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 07:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

::One, reliability is contextual to the statements being made. How reliable does Rivista di Biologia need to be to say that an experiment was conducted and it was a failure? That's not an extraordinary claim so it doesn't need an exceptional source. Two, the fact that the failed experiment ''did'' take place is now reliably sourced to Rose's book, not Rivista di Biologia, and Rose is a respected scientist. So again, how is it you just want to delete the whole section? Three, undue weight? Are you seriously suggesting that Sheldrake's crackpot theories and an experiment that refutes them doesn't deserve weight in an article about the man himself? Weight isn't about information. Misplaced Pages doesn't censor even the craziest of ideas, so long as they are notable. ] is about weighing views. The prominent view presented in this section, after my revisions, is that of ''mainstream science'', not Sheldrake. Did you read it before deleting it? --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 07:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:::(1) RdB was used for far more than "that an experiment was conducted and it was a failure" (hence the multiple citations of it). (2) The fact that an experiment took place is meaningless, without context -- context which currently lacks a reliable source. Yes, ] is about weighting views, and gives zero weight to views about the outcome of an experiment (Sheldrake's or Rose's) that are made in an unreliable source. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 08:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, anything the article '''can say''' and '''should say''', should be sourcable from a reliable source. If Rose's reliable version gives details on the setup and/or Sheldrake's opinions as to the outcome, then fine -- otherwise they should be omitted per ] & ] respectively. Otherwise we might as well not have ]. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 08:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


I have again had my nose rubbed in just how unhealthy the frustration that Misplaced Pages editing causes me is. I am therefore taking another wikibreak, quite possibly a permanent (or at the very least semi-permanent) one. <span style="font-family:Antiqua, serif;">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''<sup>(''']''')</sup></span> 07:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
:I'm not following your argument. The source is Rupert Sheldrake, quoting on his website something he wrote for Rivista. As such, the source is really just Sheldrake himself (primary source), not Rivista per se. When weighing the reliability, Rivista's reliability isn't the issue. Sheldrake's reliability to make statements about his own views is the issue. He's talking about his experiments and his view of the results. Since it's him doing the talking, his own words are reliable for his view. His view is relevant to his article. When we turn to how the experiment was received outside his own little world, we use a secondary source. That view isn't sourced to Sheldrake or Rivista, it's reliably sourced to Rose's book. Both views are reliably sourced and duely weighted. Sheldrake's because it's an article about him, reliably sourced to himself. Outside view because it's also about how his ideas were received by others, reliably sourced to others. I'm really not sure what your complaint is considering the section isn't the least bit flattering to Sheldrake. Everything sourced to Sheldrake is fully ] as ''his'' view only, not the view of others. If that's not clear, it can easily be worded clearer. --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 16:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


::Then Sheldrake is, at best, a ] in an article about himself, and the ] on use of such sources apply. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 02:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC) I am adding this post-dated comment so that the bot does not archive this -- ensuring that it stays to remind me. <span style="font-family:Antiqua, serif;">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''<sup>(''']''')</sup></span> 07:39, 24 May 3012 (UTC)


:*Hi Hrafn, feel free to remove this comment. I have been tracking recent edits and dialogue of yours and have, once again, noted the value you bring to an article's development. I am also concerned about your health, as you have reported it. Anyway, your edits have been (will be) appreciated. Thanks for your counsel. ] (]) 15:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
== Great Work ==


== Holiday cheer ==
Hrafn, I'm glad you have enough knowledge of the subject matter to keep ] in line. I also completely understand your frustration with the other editor on the page who seems not to comprehend how we apply some rather basic policies and guidelines in terms of sourcing and verifiability. Might I suggest not getting too worked up over it. Let's ask for some assistance with this entry from relevant wikiprojects, and if specifically the poor sourcing continues lets take it to the RS/N. What do you think? Cheers for all your hard work!] (]) 12:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


{| style="border: 3px solid red; background-color: #FFFAF0;"
== Astrotheology ==
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;"|'''Holiday Cheer'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 2px solid blue;"|''']''' '']'' is wishing you Season's Greetings! This message celebrates the holiday season, promotes ], and hopefully makes your day a little better. Spread the seasonal good cheer by wishing another user a ] and a ], whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Share the good feelings.
|}


== ] ==
Hello, {{BASEPAGENAME}}. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at ] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. {{#if:|The discussion can be found under the topic ].}} <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Yours, &mdash; ] 14:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:You may find this sub thread of interest. I was myself unaware of the history ]. Cheers.] (]) 17:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


{{Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2015/MassMessage}} ] (]) 16:38, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
::Ouch -- I knew he was bad, but didn't realise he was ''infamous''. Also didn't realise that he'd refactored his comment on here after I'd called him on it being incomprehensible. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 18:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
<!-- Message sent by User:Mdann52@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Mdann52/list&oldid=692054221 -->


== Excessive nit-picking == == What do you mean? ==
]-violation removed. Dzonatas & Madman have made their baseless accusations on quite enough fora without me feeling any need to offer them another one. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 04:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC) ]


African or European? ] (]) 10:11, 2 October 2016 (UTC)


== Arbitration request == == HNY ==
You have been named as a party at ]. You may wish to make a statement at the page. <font face="Verdana">]</font><sup>'']''</sup> 04:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
:Thanks for the heads-up. I'll probably be making a statement. <font face="Antiqua, serif">'']<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub>''</font> 05:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
| style="vertical-align: middle; horizontal-align: left; padding: 5px;" | ]
| style="padding: 5px; vertical-align: top; text-align: left; height: 1.1em; width: 100%;" | <span style="font-size: x-large; color: #505050;">'''Happy New Year!'''</span><hr><br><span style="font-size: medium; color: black;">Best wishes for 2018, —]] – 10:13, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
|}<!-- Template:Useraward -->
==Orphaned non-free image File:Ill Will Geisel Waiting for the Signal from Home 1942.jpg==
] Thanks for uploading ''']'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a ]. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see ]).


Note that any non-free images not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described in ]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-orphaned fair use-notice --> --] (]) 03:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
==AfD nomination of Mae-Wan Ho==
== Nomination for deletion of ] ==
]An article that you have been involved in editing, ], has been listed for ]. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at ]. Thank you. <small>Do you want to ] of receiving this notice?</small><!-- Template:adw --> ] (]) 06:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 17:10, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:10, 29 September 2023

This user may have left Misplaced Pages. Hrafn has not edited Misplaced Pages since December 2014. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach someone else.

READ THIS FIRST! (If you don't then there's a very good chance you're wasting your and/or my time in posting here.)
  • New threads belong at the bottom of talk pages (pressing the 'new section' link at the top, or here, will do this automatically for you). I reserve the right to summarily remove (without responding, and possibly even without reading) any new threads placed here at the top of this talk page.
  • Discussion directly pertaining to a specific article belongs on that article's talkpage. Where such discussion is erroneously posted here, I may move it to article talk (if I'm feeling particularly kind-hearted, or am busting for a good argument), but most likely will simply delete or revert it -- so best to post it where it belongs in the first place.
  • I likewise reserve the right to curtail (by reversion, deletion, archiving or otherwise) any thread on this talkpage that I (on my sole discretion) feel has become, or is is likely to be, unproductive. If you object to such curtailment, then by all means don't post here.
  • This user defines a "regular", perhaps somewhat idiosyncratically, as somebody who can be trusted to observe policy with sufficient regularity that it is not necessary to "template" (or "tag") them on their user talk. This user therefore regards exhortations to WP:Don't template the regulars as an oxymoron (and as such unproductive).
  • Please do not WP:REFACTOR your comments unnecessarily. Doing so may result in an WP:EDITCONFLICT whilst attempting to respond.
  • Talkback:
  1. This user has their preferences set to automatically watchlist all articles they edit, and all pages they comment upon. It is therefore completely unnecessary for you to {{talkback}} this user to tell them that you have replied to a comment.
  2. Further, there is nothing in that template's description suggests it should be used for XfDs or article talk -- so using it for such pages is inappropriate.
  3. I would (fürther fürther) note that I am under no obligation to respond to each and every comment you make (and there will be times that purposefully avoiding responding would appear to be the most politic course of action).
  4. Finally (fürther fürther fürther), if you keep doing it, I'll probably eventually have to find some more coercive way of convincing you to follow good WP:Wikiquette and stop.
Ω. (Don't trip over the møøse on the way out.)
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Wikibreak

I have again had my nose rubbed in just how unhealthy the frustration that Misplaced Pages editing causes me is. I am therefore taking another wikibreak, quite possibly a permanent (or at the very least semi-permanent) one. HrafnStalk 07:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I am adding this post-dated comment so that the bot does not archive this -- ensuring that it stays to remind me. HrafnStalk 07:39, 24 May 3012 (UTC)

  • Hi Hrafn, feel free to remove this comment. I have been tracking recent edits and dialogue of yours and have, once again, noted the value you bring to an article's development. I am also concerned about your health, as you have reported it. Anyway, your edits have been (will be) appreciated. Thanks for your counsel. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 15:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Holiday cheer

Holiday Cheer
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ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
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What do you mean?

African or European? 2601:545:8201:AB7A:1CB1:1B10:76C3:AB4A (talk) 10:11, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

HNY

Happy New Year!

Best wishes for 2018, —PaleoNeonate – 10:13, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

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Nomination for deletion of Template:WikiProject Intelligent design

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