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2008 APA statement

I just removed According to a response released in 2008 by American Psychiatric Association, Zucker does not advocate conversion therapy for transgender adults or for trans youth in all cases, and he opposes change therapy for gay people under all circumstances from the DSM appointment section because it's cited to a word doc on a personal blog and I can't find the original document anywhere. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC) (edited 21:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC))

From some sleuthing, I don't think it was published by the APA, but support reinclusion if it was. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

U of T Faculty Status

I removed an uncited sentence claiming he is a U of T faculty member in the Department of Psychiatry and Department of Pschology. He isn't listed in either department's directory.

The weird thing is, on his CV, he claims to be a U of T prof with the department of Psychiatry. He also lists an @utoronto.ca email on his page, but the email isn't valid.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to handle this? Should we just keep it removed or should we say something like

Even though he claims to be a U of T faculty member, his name does not appear on the faculty directory.

Egefeyzi (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2024 (UTC) Egefeyzi (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

"Even though he claims to be a U of T faculty member, his name does not appear on the faculty directory" – Egefeyzi no, you shouldn't do that kind of editing on Misplaced Pages because this is your own original analysis. Zucker is retired and retired faculty webpages are often removed. That doesn't mean he was never a professor at U of T. You simply look for another source. Zenomonoz (talk) 00:23, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

It's already not cited though, that's why I had removed it. I was looking for sources to address the Not verified in body template. I did admittedly stray a little too much into WP:OR going through his CV and stuff, but in all honesty I was just curious and went down the rabbit hole of figuring out where that claim started.

Being familiar with U of T, my guess is that he worked as an adjunct for a while and isn't affiliated anymore, but I can't find any sources for that either. (Or any sources about him being retired, for that matter.)

Unless you/someone else can find a proper source that verifies the claim, I'd say we should remove it.

Egefeyzi (talk) 10:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I found a source in 30 seconds. Zenomonoz (talk) 01:55, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Huh ok I guess I'm just dumb lol, thanks for the source. I'll edit to add it Egefeyzi (talk) 01:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

References

1. ^ "U of T Dept. of Psychiatry - Faculty Directory - Search".
2. ^ "U of T Dept. of Psychology - Faculty Directory - Search".
3. "Research - Kenneth J. Zucker".

"Token conditioning"

Hi Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist, you have inserted a claim under Kens "methods", which claims: "They also included token-based conditioning techniques".

The claim that Ken used token conditioning is untrue as far as I am aware. It is also clearly not verified as something Zucker employed in the source you cited.

Perhaps a well meaning mistake, but this is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, and can lead to the creation of WP:CITOGENESIS. I'm going to ask you to remove it after checking.

This is disappointing because I have previous discussed issues with some of your edits on conversion therapy. You seem to reach conclusions that are not stated in sources: WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Zenomonoz (talk) 03:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I've lost access to the source but support the sentence's removal. The issue seems to have been that multiple sources say Green did token based conditioning, and Zucker adopted/built on his work (for example, Rivera et al Green’s methods were adopted by Dr. Kenneth Zucker at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto (Zucker & Bradley, 1995; Zucker et al., 2012) but modified so that the focus was primarily on preventing a child from developing an eventual transgender identity), but I found one clarifying he'd replaced the token system with psychotherapy, and couldn't find references in his work to tokens.

I did not appreciate that you pinged me here, left a message on my talk page, and named me in an edit summary. Just one (the ping here) would have sufficed. When you reintroduced undue claims unfitting of WP:MEDRS, I collegially pinged you once on talk. Going forward, please extend me the same courtesy - if I make a mistake, you only need to point it out once.

I do not recall the issues on conversion therapy you refer to. The closest was this thread, where you raised issues with content you noted another editor had added, where you argued that Green and Rekers were more focused on SOCE than GICE, which doesn't mean they didn't do both, a point RS frequently note. I generally appreciate working with you, but the triple ping and erroneously attributing past issues on another article to me don't sit right with me. I'd appreciate an apology and de-escalation because, like I said, I enjoy working with you, but this seemed unduly escalatory. Sincerely, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 06:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for understanding. Apologies for the pinging – I will change my approach moving forward. Yes I agree, mention of other interactions belonged on your talk page, not this talk page. Zenomonoz (talk) 06:30, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Changes to lead

Hi Spotcorrector, I am opening a discussion on the talk page here to avoid what may become an edit war. Your changes were reverted by HenrikHolen, and I see you have reinstated them.

I agree that a recent change of the lead to state: "Zucker is known for the living in your own skin model, a form of conversion therapy aimed at preventing pre-pubertal children from growing up transgenderby modifying their gender identity and expression" are perhaps an oversimplification of what the sources state. There is a little more contention among the sources. For example, the review of his clinic did not state whether the clinic was engaged in conversion practices but stated that "they cannot state the clinic does not" engage in such practices.

This is probably closer to accurate:

"In his clinical practice, Zucker developed interventions for prepubescent children with gender dysphoria, intended to facilitate acceptance of birth sex and prevent them from growing up transgender. If this was unsuccessful by puberty, Zucker would recommend social and medical transition. Many scholars and activists have argued Zucker's approach constitute a form of conversion therapy."

Note, there is this reliable source which states:

"Prior to 2010, Kenneth Zucker, the psychologist whose practice of discouraging children's gender-nonconforming behavior or gender transition has been vigorously criticized by trans activists, had reportedly referred more gender-variant young people for puberty blockers than any other clinician in North America."

... which may be a useful addition to the article. Zucker was one of the first clinicians in North America to be prescribing puberty blockers for GD. That probably needs to be made clear.

Anyway, the WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY so we need to make sure everything in the lead is discussed in the body. Reply to this post and let me know your thoughts, other editors will likely weigh in.

Zenomonoz (talk) 22:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a response to the edit made by @spotcorrector. I'll try to engage with zenomonoz' comments in the morning but it's getting late.

While I have no reason to believe you were not acting in good faith, I do believe your edit did not improve upon the article. You removed references to published academic literature and replaced it with an article by Jesse Singal, whose reporting on transgender issues is strongly opinionated and who several editors at WP:RSN contend is an inappropriate source on issues related to transgender people.

Moreover, the expression of Zucker's belief that gender dysphoria will resolve with time cannot be presented in isolation, and should specify that this belief is contradicted by the preponderance of evidence, as per WP:FRINGELEVEL

I propose we restore the previous stable version. HenrikHolen (talk) 01:32, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

"the expression of Zucker's belief that gender dysphoria will resolve with time cannot be presented in isolation, and should specify that this belief is contradicted by the preponderance of evidence" – yes, that could be contextualised if the reliable sources do so.

Here is a quote from a 2015 paper authored by the founder of the Tavistock clinic:

Zucker collated all the long-term follow-up studies of children with gender identity disorder (gender dysphoria) referred to mental health professionals. The study showed that a small minority of children had a transsexual outcome (5.3 %), while the majority had a homosexual or bisexual outcome (45.7 %). More recent studies show that gender dysphoria persists into adolescence and beyond in only about ten to thirty percent of prepubertal children with gender dysphoria . Given the variability of outcomes, some clinicians have defined their approach to the care of children as ‘watchful waiting’. Factors which may contribute to the persistence or desistence are unclear and the subject of current empirical research.

It is important to note that this is clearly referring to prepubescent gender dysphoria. In Zucker's sample, some have argued that because this occurred during the age of gender identity disorder, the high prevalence of desistance may be explained by the broader requirements for diagnosis (i.e. that many gender nonconforming children were diagnosed GID, but would not meet the requirements for dysphoria today). I'm fairly confident there are RS that discuss this, but it should be covered in the body more extensively anyway.

Zenomonoz (talk) 04:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I think you're right that the reported persistence rate will vary depending on how the cohort is selected, and that older definitions of GID might include persons who would not qualify under the modern definition of gender dysphoria.

I imagine there would be agreement that the current reference in the lede is suboptimal. We should try to reach agreement on what reference to apply, since the language of lede would change to reflect the new source which could render the discussion over the current language moot. HenrikHolen (talk) 14:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I also support the previous stable version. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I also want to note, the source does not even support "Watchful waiting"

• Reviewers did find, however, that the clinic focused on intensive assessment and treatment in lieu of more modern approaches. It said today's best practices favour watchful waiting, as well as educating and supporting parents to accept a child's gender expression. - ie, the reviewers found CAMH wasn't doing that

Many high quality sources note that "watchful waiting" and zucker's living in your own skin model are different:

• Following the creation of the Gender Identity Disorder diagnosis in the DSM, many psychologists were influenced by an approach to transgender care called the “live in your own skin” model (Zucker & Bradley, 1995) which was especially dominant in the 1980s and 90s. This model understands children’s gender as malleable and fluid compared to adults who have more stable senses of felt gender and gender expression. This model also assumes that since it is harder to grow up transgender in society, it is beneficial for children to learn to live according to the gender assigned to them at birth. To assist children with transgender feelings in accepting the gender to which they were assigned at birth, Zucker and Bradley recommended behavior modification therapy that may include encouraging children to participate in games and activities appropriate to their gender assigned at birth, giving children toys conforming to their gender assigned at birth, and encouraging parents to socialize children according to their gender assigned at birth. Based on this model, if children consistently hold transgender feelings and a persistent desire to be the other (binary) gender as they approach adolescence, Zucker and Bradley recommend prescribing them puberty blockers – puberty-suppressing drugs which stop children’s development of secondary sex characteristics such as hair growth, voice change, and the development of breasts – followed by hormonal treatment to develop desired secondary sex characteristics. This “live in your own skin” model of treatment has been criticized by transgender activists, scholars, and psychologists for making children with transgender feelings more susceptible to a sense of shame, anxiety, and depression and for not allowing them to assert their sense of self
• Another influential school of research and treatment of children with transgender feelings is the Dutch Model, also known as the “watchful waiting” model (de Vries & Cohen-Kettenis, 2012). The main assumption of this model is that some children with transgender feelings will sustain a sense of gender dissonance or dysphoria whereas other children will stop (or desist) experiencing a mismatch between their felt sense of gender, gender expression, and gender assigned at birth by the time they reach puberty. The Dutch model is one of the first to provide transgender children with puberty blockers since physical changes associated with pubescent development can be especially traumatic for children who do not identify with the gender assigned to them at birth ... Unlike the “live in your own skin” model, the Dutch model does not call for any intervention that aims to adjust children’s sense of gender or gender expression. Rather, the Dutch model provides support for families and gender non-conforming children to assure that they get their psychological needs met. Nevertheless, children and families are encouraged to wait for social and physical transition until the beginning of puberty (Ehrensaft, 2017). This waiting can be painful and traumatic for some children, causing strong cognitive dissonance between their own understanding of being a particular gender and the treatment from their surroundings that misrecognize them as being a different gender.
• Spotcorrector's edit introduced false information, from a source that doesn't support it. The lead should continue to wikilink Zucker's living in your own skin model and reintroduce the high quality sources noting it's a form of gender identity change efforts instead of attributing that view to critics.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes I don't think Zucker is a "watchful waiting" proponent. In this paper he distinguishes three different approaches in the second paragraph. Ehrensaft also splits it into these three categories . Zenomonoz (talk) 00:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

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