| Revision as of 09:50, 12 April 2009 editShadowmorph (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers3,792 edits →The "new sections" added to Macedonia dis. page← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 12:48, 7 December 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,931,875 editsm -redundant class params (4); cleanupTag: AWB |
| (764 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{talkheader}} |
|
{{Skip to talk}} |
|
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
|
|
|
{{Not a forum}} |
|
{{DisambigProject|nested=yes|}} |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|1= |
|
{{WPGR|class=Dab|importance=NA|no-todolist=no|nested=yes|}} |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject Disambiguation}} |
|
{{WPMKD|class=Dab|importance=NA|no-todolist=yes|nested=yes|}} |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject North Macedonia|importance=NA}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Greece|importance=NA}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Bulgaria|importance=NA}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome|importance=}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
{{Consensus|The title of this article has been established by a binding consensus process at ].}} |
|
{{Archive box|image=]| |
|
|
|
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=b|style=long}} |
|
|
{{Old moves|date=14 June 2021|destination=Macedonia (disambiguation)|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1028877835#Requested move 14 June 2021}} |
|
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis |
|
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis |
|
|archiveprefix=Talk:Macedonia/Archives/ |
|
|archiveprefix=Talk:Macedonia/Archive |
|
|format=m/Y |
|
|format= %%i |
|
|age=744 |
|
|age=2160|<!--90 days--> |
|
|
|header={{automatic archive navigator}} |
|
|index=yes |
|
|
|
|maxarchsize=100000 |
|
|
|minkeepthreads=4 |
|
|
|numberstart=5 |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Descriptions == |
|
|
|
|
|
Why cant the descriptions for each article show the full story, "Macedon" identity is argued yet on Misplaced Pages it is "in nothern Greece" (even tho many state it is north of Greece), "Ancient Macedonian language" is argued between Illyrian, Thracian, and Greek... yet it states "closely to Greek" (even though its close to Illyrian and Thracian also). Stop the propaganda Greeks |
|
|
|
|
|
] (]) 02:45, 19 March 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:], ], ], what more do you want, to convince yourself? Why do you want to eliminate the word "Greek" and "Greece" from the ancient Macedonia, when we all know that it was a part of the ancient Greece? --] (]) 03:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
::I never stated I wanted to eliminate, I simply state that some authors state "Macedonian is Thracian" others state "Macedonian is Illyrian" while others state its Greek, yet it is not reflected in the Misplaced Pages, which is supposed to be neutral and show all sides. ] (]) 05:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
::Simply looking at the Misplaced Pages page it states: |
|
|
# an Indo-European language which is a close cousin to Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938), or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959). |
|
|
# an "Illyrian" dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987). |
|
|
I don't have time at the moment, but this proves authors disagree as to what ancient Macedonian is, whether it is Greek, Thracian, Illyrian (etc) and should be shown in the page ] (]) 05:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
You are trying to convince the people from your profile that the Macedonians are not Greeks! Are the Epirotes not Greek, the Creatans not Greek, the Peloponnesians not Greek, the Euboeans not Greek, the Thessalians not Greek... etc??? From the ancient times the Greeks defined their origin not only ethnological, but georgaphical too, just like the Greeks do nowdays. |
|
|
|
|
|
I wont say more but why are you using a Greek symbol (]) in your profile, that is forbidden for use by your country and it was discovered by ] in 1977 in Greek Macedonia?... |
|
|
|
|
|
From the ] article... |
|
|
|
|
|
"'''The Vergina Sun (or Star) is the ] of Greece and a state emblem of the country under the ], as well in its differen variations.'''" |
|
|
|
|
|
What would the reactions from the Americans be, if suddenly the Greeks start using one of their symbol? Why did your country do that? |
|
|
|
|
|
You are talking about propaganda, but your profile is full of it! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
|
|
:Look at the ], the ], and the ]. Even the Greek flag was probably influenced by the American flag. No Americans have started crying yet. --'''] ]''' 19:32, 19 March 2009 |
|
|
|
|
|
:: All off-topic, people. Please go elsewhere. This is the discussion page of a dab page. The only purpose of a dab page is to pass a reader on to the real articles as quickly as possible, and the only purpose of this discussion page is to work out how best to do that. Take your POV gripes elsewhere, everybody. ] ] 19:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== ] should be up front in this article. == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== add news source Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2022 == |
|
It was a featured article too. I added it on the top and then someone said "Sorry it's also on the 'see also' section". I know, but the 'see also' section is not really part of the main article, or it's not that apparent. This is a very important article (terminology) that provides a length of information not found in this one. --] (]) 06:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{Edit semi-protected|Macedonia|answered=yes}} |
|
: Yes, but that's just what the "see also" section is for. It just doesn't fit into the logic of the main list. "'Macedonia' can refer to 'Macedonia (terminology)'" is simply not a true statement. 'Macedonia' ''refers'' to a real entity out there, and the ] article is not about such an entity, but about a discussion on a lingustic meta-level. ] ] 07:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
In publishing... in Macedonia have newspaper with name "New Macedonia", on Macedonian language "Nova Makedonija" ] (]) 01:03, 9 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Must be notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article. ] (]) 01:14, 9 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2023 == |
|
== Alternate names & Geographic terms == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{Edit semi-protected|Macedonia|answered=yes}} |
|
:There is really no reason to add the ''so-called'' geographic terms on this disambiguation page as ] did. I've seen he had repeated this discussion here for the same edits. Now he/she is trying to slowly and secretly re-feed those terms for both the Bulgarian part and the Greek part, with two edits separated by some days apart :). I'm joking, but strangely what is missing is an edit to add the ''other'' geographic term: ] |
|
|
|
] (]) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Historically inaccurate data- this is a dismiss to viewers. |
|
:I '']'', please Fireleaf explain why to add these terms. If we do for reference purposes, wouldn't there be logical to add alternate names like ] for the Republic too? After all it is an official name used by many international organizations. Wouldn't that lead to an editing mess? Let's keep it simple then. |
|
|
|
In actual history the ancient Greeks were part of the Macedonian country. Language was and still is the same and very different to each other. |
|
|
Dialects have not changed through the centuries. |
|
|
The Greek were invited to educate the Macedonian people in trade as they had migrated from Syria and were land less people at the time. |
|
|
The Macedonian people, kindly welcomed them and employed them to teach them about trade between the countries as at that time Macedonia was a gate way keeper to the world of trade and did not understand the trade world. |
|
|
The Syrian Greeks that fled Syria and homes in south Macedonia taught the Macedonian people to trade. The history cannot be rewritten and should actually be researched correctly before Misplaced Pages posts and locks information from editing. The modern day Greek people want to delete Macedonia and extinguish the fact they were ever a country of people. Much like what the Israelis and Palestinians are doing still today . |
|
|
Macedonian people are not interested in people fatalities to win back history. They have long learning war wins nowhere. |
|
|
I would encourage the authors of this information to seek out the actual correct data on the history of Ancient Greece and Macedonia. |
|
|
Can be found in the historical vaults in England. The English have it all vaulted up and you can get your facts more accurately. |
|
|
A truth teller. |
|
|
:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 00:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2023 == |
|
:This page is to help someone who doesn't know which Macedonia article to read about. References to these terms belong to the ] article or elsewhere, not here |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Macedonia|answered=yes}} |
|
:If the edits were meant to inform the reader on the geography, in my opinion the geography of the regions is pretty clear from the text. Besides there is a link for ] right on the top. A "region in northern Greece" and "a western province of Bulgaria" makes everything crystal clear, no need to add anything else. Since we are begging this discussion I must mention that the geography of ] is not so clear from the text. Should we add ], as in "the northen part of the Macedonia region"? I'm not in much favor of doing this on this page. What do you think? |
|
|
|
The page currently states that North Macedonia was known until 2019 as the Republic of Macedonia. |
|
|
The United Nations registered, formal & actual correct name, was the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (FYROM). |
|
|
Please adjust misleading name. |
|
|
This is about providing precise and factual information. ] (]) 10:26, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
:FYROM was the provisional UN ''description'' for the country established in 1991 which officially called itself "Republic of Macedonia". See ] and ]. I do not believe any change is required. ] (]) 10:46, 16 December 2023 (UTC) |
|
:Please discuss before doing these edits again. By the way I'm sure that you understand that both ] and ] are controversial terms as stated in the respective articles. Is it really helpful to disambiguate a term using other controversial terms? Let's go for simplicity.] (]) 00:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The "new sections" added to Macedonia dis. page == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Proper order == |
|
If you are going to add subgroups of an ethnicity, why not add ] and ]? Obviously, they are a subgroup of Macedonians and contain the word "Macedonian" |
|
|
|
I think, that the right to do, is to specify that the term "Macedonia" officially refers to the whole region. After we could add the three other circumstances. I suggest that as the proper:<br/> |
|
# '''Macedonians (Greeks)''' - We already stated subgroups would not be added to the dis. page |
|
|
|
{{small|''Macedonia (Macedonian: Македонија, romanized: Makedonija, Greek: Μακεδονία, romanized: Makedonía, Bulgarian: Македония, romanized: Makedoniya) most commonly refers to:<br/>Macedonia (region), a geographic and historical region that today includes parts of six Balkan countries (see map)<br/>It also may refers to:<br/>Macedonia (ancient kingdom), a kingdom in Greek antiquity<br/>Macedonia (Greece), a former administrative region, spanning today three administrative subdivisions of northern Greece<br/>North Macedonia, a country in southeastern Europe, named until 2019 as «Republic of Macedonia»'' (I also suggest «the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia» (F.Y.R.O.M.), but a problematic instruction (]) is against it for some reason)}}.<br/> The reason I suggest that, is that I think that first of all, the right think to do is to declare that the term "Macedonia" in the broad sense refers to the region. Then, is it not a bit strange, that the only "Macedonia" which according to the signed agreements, but also based on the sources from 2018 onwards, is first in line? Greek Macedonia is officially called geographic region of "Macedonia" and it is almost identical with the ancient land of Macedonia. The ancient kingdom of Macedonia is also called "Macedonia" plainly. In contrast, the only ones who today refer to North Macedonia as simply "Macedonia" are those who embrace the political ideology of "ethnic Macedonian" nationalism. And for them we still leave it on this list. Nowadays, North Macedonia is the last of all of them which one would refer to as Macedonia (without the designation "North"). ] (]) 02:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
# '''Macedonian dialect''' - the page does NOT even give a description of a so called "Macedonian dialect" but rather the speakers are talking a Northern dialect, where an example of a Northern dialect is "Macedonian." The problem is this statement is a modern dialect based on modern political divisions, not historical date (ie: There are no documents stating in the middle ages or ottoman empire of "the greek dialect of Macedonian") |
|
|
# '''Macedonians (Bulgarians)''' - again, we already stated subgroups would not be included (ie: Aegean Macedonians also), and the page does not even direct you to an appropriate page, but rather a list? |
|
|
# '''Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia (Slav-Macedonians)''' - pure politics. First off, you include in the historical section, ignoring that Greek Macedonia was not created until 1913. Second, you write "Slavic Macedonians" but there is already a redirect for that! Again, this is a SUBGROUP, not an ethnicity. |
|
|
# '''Macedon or Macedonia, the kingdom in ancient Greece ''' - Again, I have added sources showing Macedon was regarded NORTH of Greece by several historians, but instead you Greeks DELETE the data... ignoring what doesn't suit your agenda. I'm sorry but if you want data Future Sunshine just ask, but some authors state "Northern Greece" others state "North of Greece" and ignoring that shows bias. |
|
|
# '''The Ancient Macedonian language, an extinct Indo-European variety close to Greek''' - Again, I showed sources stated authors stated the Macedonian language was Thraco-Illyrian, but again you DELETE and IGNORE the date. Why are Greeks so reluctant to show ALL the data, and instead focus on their point of view only? Again Future Sunshine, if you want the data just ask but don't make Misplaced Pages bias. |
|
|
] (]) 04:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
:I've taken it all back to the last version of Future Perfect. The users adding stuff can discuss it here prior to adding it again. --'''] <sup>]</sup>''' 09:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
::Mactruth please discuss this. Why are you reverting good faith edits, marking the revert as minor. I don't think that is ok to do. I don't understand the reason we have to hide all other ethnic groups in the region. What does it mean that they are subgroups? Misplaced Pages has info on ] too. Should we hide that information by suggesting that no other people call themselves Macedonians? This is a disambiguation page! Everything that could be referenced with the name Macedonia (or adj. Macedonian) should be mentioned here. Also, the argument about the subgroups is wrong. There is no rule against subgroups. Aren't the ] also a subgroup, that of ]? Why don't we have that article like ] that mentions all ethnicities? Why is there no problem with other Misplaced Pages disambiguation pages like ], ], ], ]. They have links to all subgroups involved. Maybe we should split the disambiguation page into noun + adjective like it is standard practice in Misplaced Pages. If we serve all the links for the noun why should we not do the same for the adjective? Sorry but it makes no sense. Since the adjective is used in English to refer to other peoples like ] and ] the information should be in this page. So to quote ] ''nothing else matters''! ] (]) 01:44, 12 April 2009 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Other people disagree. Type "Macedonia" into https://google.com. "North Macedonia (Country in the Balkans)" appears first in the suggested searches (analogous to WP's disamibiguation), followed by "Macedonia (Ancient kingdom)". A search for "Macedonia" on https://bbc.com/search shows (disregarding several pages' worth of North Macedonia football game results) the country profile for North Macedonia first. https://britannica.com first suggested search is "Macedonia (North Macedonia)" followed by "Macedonia (region, Europe)", "Macedonia (ancient kingdom, Europe)" and "Macedonia (region, Greece)". ] (]) 13:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
So I guess according to some editors ] being called regularly Macedonians isn't notable. |
|
|
And ''Macedonian'' referring to the a specific a dialect of Greek (one of the Northern dialects) isn't notable either because there isn't enough info in Misplaced Pages. That can't be an excuse. I'd be bold and create the article, but there is some effort involved and I'm not the definative expert. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
'''Similar issue''': What explains the order of the languages for the word Macedonia? The work derives from the Greek word Μακεδονία. Shouldn't then Greek be first? ] (]) 20:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
In favor of disambiguating to '''Macedonian dialect of Greek''': Here are some sources on the ''Macedonian dialect'' explicitly referring to the dialect of modern Greek |
|
|
quote from |
|
|
::''Now in modern Greek the dialects are divided sharply on this point. The dialects of Macedonia, Thrace and Thessaly have "σε δίνω", those of the rest of of Greece "σου δίνω", in the sense of "I give you" |
|
|
quote from |
|
|
::''THE MACEDONIAN DIALECT (note: a whole chapter) : The Greek language has come down to us, like the old Teutonic language, in a number of dialects and sub-dialects'' |
|
|
quote from |
|
|
::''the dialect spoken in most of northern Greece ...the Macedonian dialect uses accusative clitics'' |
|
|
In the Bible. Here is |
|
|
::''Why were you called Timotheus by the Thessalonians? he replied : ''In the Thessalonian dialect Timotheus meant the same as leader or bishop.''. Note: The meaning of the word ''Thessalonian'' at that time transcended to ''Macedonian'' |
|
Historically inaccurate data- this is a dismiss to viewers.
In actual history the ancient Greeks were part of the Macedonian country. Language was and still is the same and very different to each other.
Dialects have not changed through the centuries.
The Greek were invited to educate the Macedonian people in trade as they had migrated from Syria and were land less people at the time.
The Macedonian people, kindly welcomed them and employed them to teach them about trade between the countries as at that time Macedonia was a gate way keeper to the world of trade and did not understand the trade world.
The Syrian Greeks that fled Syria and homes in south Macedonia taught the Macedonian people to trade. The history cannot be rewritten and should actually be researched correctly before Misplaced Pages posts and locks information from editing. The modern day Greek people want to delete Macedonia and extinguish the fact they were ever a country of people. Much like what the Israelis and Palestinians are doing still today .
Macedonian people are not interested in people fatalities to win back history. They have long learning war wins nowhere.
I would encourage the authors of this information to seek out the actual correct data on the history of Ancient Greece and Macedonia.
Can be found in the historical vaults in England. The English have it all vaulted up and you can get your facts more accurately.
A truth teller.
The page currently states that North Macedonia was known until 2019 as the Republic of Macedonia.
The United Nations registered, formal & actual correct name, was the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (FYROM).
Please adjust misleading name.
This is about providing precise and factual information. Cafaas (talk) 10:26, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
I think, that the right to do, is to specify that the term "Macedonia" officially refers to the whole region. After we could add the three other circumstances. I suggest that as the proper:
Macedonia (Macedonian: Македонија, romanized: Makedonija, Greek: Μακεδονία, romanized: Makedonía, Bulgarian: Македония, romanized: Makedoniya) most commonly refers to:
Macedonia (region), a geographic and historical region that today includes parts of six Balkan countries (see map)
It also may refers to:
Macedonia (ancient kingdom), a kingdom in Greek antiquity
Macedonia (Greece), a former administrative region, spanning today three administrative subdivisions of northern Greece
North Macedonia, a country in southeastern Europe, named until 2019 as «Republic of Macedonia» (I also suggest «the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia» (F.Y.R.O.M.), but a problematic instruction (MOS:MAC) is against it for some reason).
The reason I suggest that, is that I think that first of all, the right think to do is to declare that the term "Macedonia" in the broad sense refers to the region. Then, is it not a bit strange, that the only "Macedonia" which according to the signed agreements, but also based on the sources from 2018 onwards, is first in line? Greek Macedonia is officially called geographic region of "Macedonia" and it is almost identical with the ancient land of Macedonia. The ancient kingdom of Macedonia is also called "Macedonia" plainly. In contrast, the only ones who today refer to North Macedonia as simply "Macedonia" are those who embrace the political ideology of "ethnic Macedonian" nationalism. And for them we still leave it on this list. Nowadays, North Macedonia is the last of all of them which one would refer to as Macedonia (without the designation "North"). Greek Rebel (talk) 02:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
![[REDACTED]](https://u3vuiephb.global.ssl.fastly.net/File:WikiProject_North_Macedonia_logo.svg){kind=link}
Not done: Must be notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:14, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)