Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitextInline

Revision as of 12:49, 11 June 2009 editTóraí (talk | contribs)Administrators18,520 edits →Discussion on Ireland (island) vs. Ireland (state) (split from above): ++← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 13:42, 3 December 2023 edit undoScolaire (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers27,739 edits →ARCA: links
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{WPBS|
	{{IECOLL|notes= Everybody is invited to participate in discussions here. The discussion will be moderated by a panel appointed by ArbCom. Moderators can moderate the discussion and delete any off-topic conversation; in particular personal attacks will be deleted. <!-- (please uncomment when the word "Moderators" gets changed back to "Members":) Please consider using {{TL|OT}} for clarity. --> If you have a complaint about a user, please try to resolve it on their talk page first. For any complaints, please always be specific and provide links.
			{{WikiProject Ireland}}
			{{WikiProject Northern Ireland}}
	Please, for the moment, refrain from discussing the individual Ireland naming options until we agree on a procedure.
			{{WikiProject Unionism in Ireland}}
			{{WikiProject Irish Republicanism}}
	}}		}}
			{{User:MiszaBot/config
	{| class="infobox" width="150"
			|archiveheader = {{aan}}
	|- align="center"
			|maxarchivesize = 150K
	| ]
			|counter = 34
	''']'''
			|minthreadsleft = 4
	----
			|algo = old(15d)
	|- align="center"
	| ]		|archive = Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Archive %(counter)d
			}}
	]
			{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn
	]
			|target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes
	]
	|}		}}
			{{archive box |bot=lowercase sigmabot III |age=15 |units=days |auto=yes |search=yes |index=/Archive index }}
	{{Shortcut|WT:IECOLL}}		{{Shortcut|WT:IECOLL}}
			== Move: Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country) ==
	=General and housekeeping =
			{{atop}}
	== Archiving by bot? ==
			As an Irish citizen, I was shocked and surprised to find that the title of the Misplaced Pages page for my country does not bear the actual name of my country.
	Should we rely on a bot for archiving this page? See details at ]. &mdash; ] 21:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
	:No. ] ] 22:18, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
	:: Why not? (It's easy for you to say, as long as you don't have to do it!) &mdash; ] 07:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
	:: Well, I guess we're just following the no rebuttal plan here. Someone proposes a good idea, and all it takes to oppose it is the little word "no". This is not what I had in mind when I signed up as a moderator. &mdash; ] 18:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
	= Ireland naming question =
	== This is not what I signed up for ==
	I and many other editors were that this project was taking statements. ({{user|Gnevin}} kindly used AWB to notify lots of editors).
	After taking my time to consider how the process was structured, I 8 days later, on 13 March.
	I don't think that the project page has substantially changed since then, but I am still going to focus on the .
	That page is explicit on a number of points, and ''for me'' the most significant of those was under the heading '''''', which I will reproduce here in full:
	<div style="display:block; padding: 2em; border: 3px solid green; background-color:white; color:black; height:300px">
	]
	Proposal: To assess the validity of arguments, moderators will use the pyramid to the right.</div>
	That is a clear commitment ''by the moderators'' not to simply count heads, but rather to ''assess the validity of arguments''. That's why I signed up for, and that's how I expected this process to proceed.
	Unfortunately, that is '''not''' what is now happening. At ], the moderators have done absolutely nothing to weigh any of the arguments or to assess evidence.
	Instead they are doing the ''exact opposite'' of what was promised, which is making a headcount of the views of participants. And on that basis, they have ruled out several options: see ].
	How they arrived at those figures is another question, because the total number of supports and opposes counted on the major points at ] significantly exceeds the . As one example, look at one of the figures under the ]: {{nowrap|''Republic of Ireland: 41/41''}}
	That's a claimed total of 82 participants, more than three times as many people as have signed up to the project. There are several possible explanations for this:
	*that 56 people who are not members of the project have expressed views on these proposals, and have been included in the total
	*that the moderators have added crudely together the total number of supports and opposes for several similar proposals, even though there may be significant overlap between the list of names in each case. (This would be double-voting)
	So on two key points, the path which the moderators are ''currently'' following is at odds with what was set out at the start:
	#They are counting heads, rather than weighing evidence
	#That people become members to participate
	Over the last few weeks, other editors have expressed concerns about the apparent inactivity of the moderators, and I have tried to support the notion that they needed to time to come up with a way to make the next steps on this process. I ] that the moderators would do what they had promised at the outset, and I gave them the benefit of the doubt.
	But what I now see at ] removes any doubt in my mind, and it is clear that '''the moderators are now running phase 2 of the process in an entirely different manner to what was set out at the start'''. And to add the absurdity, '''they appear to be double-counting votes'''.
	I hope that moderators will come here and explain both what they think they are up to, ''and'' how they plan to get the process back on the path which was advertised to those of us who committed our time and energies to participate in it.
	But right now, it appears that the since the path they are following is so radically different from what the stall that was set out, that none of us need feel in any way bound by the outcome of this process. I hope that the moderators will be able to persuade me that I am wrong, and that we have not all been wasting out time for the last few months, but that's how it looks. --] <small>] • (])</small> 20:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Yes, it is just head-counting, which is why it's totally impossible to reject my suggestion for a community poll, without appearing to favour the opinion of this dedicated minority over us in the rest of the community. On the other hand, the latest suggestion is that they put some proposal to a community poll. The "mods" have not "gotten around" to giving feed-back yet, so we are dependent slightly on speculation (but see the page). ] (<small>]</small>) 21:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	::Please note that nothing has been decided yet; those are preliminary figures. I'll counter one poiunt hough: noone was required to 'sign up' for this project, so there being more statements then members has no relevance. I must also debunk the sense that the results merely ammount to a headcount, which is defenitely not the case.
	::It is the arguments that count, and it is the arguments that the community has had a chance to support or oppose, ''not'' the titles. The analysis extracted the possible titles from the statements and the degree of support each of those arguments have secured. The moderators were never intended to determin the validity of those arguments; we are only here to structure the debate and guide toward and outcome. That has been the whole idea behind the non-rebuttal process. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — ] • ] • </span> 21:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::How does that tie in with "Proposal: To assess the validity of arguments, moderators will use the pyramid to the right."? ] ] 22:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::That proposal was put on the back-burner in favor of the non-rebuttal process. It aslo has little use when there are no rebuttals. We can still use it in a second round. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — ] • ] • </span> 22:15, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::: Oh lord theres a second round? This is all so confusing lol ] (]) 22:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::and how have the mods "structured the debate and guided toward an outcome"?
	::::::what kind of debate excludes rebuttals?
	::::::graham's pyramid was and is under "agreed procedures". ] ] 00:39, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	:: I would just like to say i think this whole things a complete mess, but i certainly dont think the moderators are to blame for this. Arbcom should of actually tried to be helpful and resolve the problem or lay out a clear framework on how the community had to resolve it. Instead they just passed it back to the people involved in the original dispute and said come up with something urselves, like people havnt been trying that for how many years??? :\
	:: Im sure what ever method the mods come up with some people will oppose, and when the final verdict is handed out one side is either going to be very angry or both sides will feel like they have lost. Sharing the pain has gotta be the safest way forward. ] (]) 21:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::So, what is going on here? Preliminary counting of figures? Assessment of the arguments? Analysis of each person's NPOV? Refraining from discussing the individual Ireland naming options? Agreeing on a procedure? Adopting a third moderator? ] ] 21:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::: All, some or none of the above :) Just give em time to sort it out. We can wait a few more months to resolve it, i bet everyones glad we didnt set that deadline of may, we would have failed to meet it for sure.] (]) 22:01, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
	Oh Lordy :(
	Edokter has confirmed that the structured analysis by the pyramid, which was the methodology set out when I signed up and which is ''still'' the methodology set out on the project has been "put on the back burner". That's a pretty fundamental change to make, yet I see no effort at any stage to communicate it to project participants (I wasn't even aware of the existence of the panel talk page until today). This is not a good situation, to put it mildly. It seems to me to be essential in any fair form of structured process that if the rules of the game change, then that should be clearly communicated to the players.
	I know that this will sound like nitpicking, but to me its fundamental: the writing on the panel-talk-page currently suggests excluding a range of options on the basis of numbers of supporters and opposers. Yet Edokter's explanations above offers two slightly different versions of what those numbers: first that he "must also debunk the sense that the results merely amount to a headcount, which is definitely not the case", secondly that "the analysis extracted the possible titles from the statements and the degree of support each of those arguments have secured". That sounds like counting heads on different arguments within each proposition, rather than simply counting heads on different statements ... but either way it's counting heads.
	Now maybe I've misunderstood this, but I'm listening. So please, Edokter, please explain what those numbers mean, and how they were arrived at.
	Edokter says the the "moderators were never intended to determin the validity of those arguments", which I'll note is ''not'' the approach adopted at ] or ], where closers ''are'' expected to weigh the arguments. It's also completely at variance with the pyramid which was the basis on which editors were asked to participate in this process. --] <small>] • (])</small> 00:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	:My experience is that ''de facto'' practice on ]s and such things is that while all us admins who close such things harp on about the importance of individual arguments, such things are only considered after numbers. I.e. when the result falls within a certain range, arguments come into it. So head counting is the primary tool, and as thus will be here. Any attempt to actually use arguments primarily will lead to a paradox, namely that the closer/moderator was too opinionated to be classified as "uninvolved", and thus shouldn't be closing. All the more reason to leave the "argument strength" mantra in fairyland and have a binding ] community poll that keeps the decision in the hands of the community as a whole rather than leaving it in the hands of a band representing mainly the most extreme/committed element. ] (<small>]</small>) 01:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	:This isn't a deletion discussion, but more akin an RfC. We're still in the middle of going through the statements, and trying to get a third moderator. Chances are, we will be having a second, open round, where the pyramid will be centerpiece. This will be a ''short'' period. We do not expect to solve all controversies, but we all will have to make a choice. Please stand by. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — ] • ] • </span> 01:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	::Well nobody else was using the room so I have started the discussion at ]. Enjoy. ] ] 01:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	== Building on what we have done so far and getting to a conclusion ==
	As per my other recent comments, I think that this process is now in a big mess. I don't think that our depleted number of moderators have a clear idea of how to proceed, and Edokter's comments above seem to me to show that the moderators have departed significantly from what was proposed when editors were invited to participate in this process.
	But I think that there ''is'' a way forward which brings all these strands together, and it's based on Deacon of Pndapetzim's proposal above, drawing on the Gdansk poll.
	We have now had the statement process. It has been very valuable, because all sides have placed their evidence and their arguments on the table. Personally, I have found that it has helped enormously, both to clarify my own reasons for the options I prefer, but also to better understand the arguments of those with whom I disagree.
	The question now is what to do with this material to make it usable in a community-wide poll of the sort that DofP prosed. It's a bit of a sprawl; some statements cover several issues, some cover one issue, but in a different way to others reaching similar conclusions. But nonetheless, most of the evidence is there; it just needs to be re-organised for clarity.
	And I think that there is a way of doing that which needn't place an excessive burden on the moderators, if we use an approach like that of the pre-trial stage of civil proceedings in a modern judicial system, where a lot of preparatory work is done: both sides prepare evidence bundles and produce a copy for each side and one for the court; and both sides also prepare skeleton arguments so that the issues can be considered in some sort of logical fashion.
	The problem is that there are 26 members of this process, so we may end up with 26 sets of arguments on each of the questions to be addressed. But we can easily enough avoid that by giving members an incentive to produce joint statements. What I propose is simply that all statements appear on one page, and the order in which statements are presented is determined by the number of signatories:
	# each member may sign only one statement on each issue, but up to the closing date may switch their endorsement from one statement to another
	# the statements are presented in reverse order by number of signatories, with the largest number of signatories at the top
	# in the event of a tie in the number of signatories, the statement which reached that total first goes to the top.
	The moderators need merely announce a deadline, and editors can do the rest. X drafts a statement, Y signs it; Z says they'll endorse it too if it is changed, and they discuss it until the statement is submitted. Then it's up to people to sign or not sign, as they choose. And if someone else produces a statement which they all prefer, then Z, Y and Z can all abandon the first statement.
	This process will lead to a major consolidation of the sprawling sets of arguments currently dispersed over dozens of statements. My guess is that on each issue, we will end up up with two or three statements which each attract five or more signatories, and then a number of lone voices.
	If we do this first for ], and put it out for a vote like that for ], we will have the best of all possible worlds: all the best arguments for and against each option, prioritised by the level of support they have received from those closest to the issue. So on ], we may have a statement recommending option 1A signed by 7 editors, followed by a statement recommending option C signed by 6 editors, or whatever. Some statements may not prefer a particular option, but may instead make general comments or choose to say "anything other than option X", or "whatever decision you make, remember these points". So far as the moderators are concerned, it wouldn't matter what the stance is of a statement, so long as editors endorse only one statement.
	This will provide a strong incentive amongst editors to remove weak or false arguments, and to focus instead on the most important points which they want to make to the voters. If a group of editors want to argue that Ireland should be an article about ]s in ] because ] taught Nelson Mandela how to make space-rockets out of mackerel, that's their lookout.
	Once this is done for problem 1, we will have narrowed down the options for problem 2.1, and can address it in the same way; then we can do problem 2.2
	This approach won't be quick, but it will allow everyone concerned to focus the case they want to make, and will allow the wider community to assess the arguments made by participants in this process, ''without'' placing on the moderators the burden of making an analysis of their own.
	My idea may need refinement, but what do people think of that outline? --] <small>] • (])</small> 02:35, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	:I like it. It is robust. It is wikilike. It builds consensus. ] (]) 06:39, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Approve. ] (]) 07:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Thoroughly approve. ] ] 07:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	: Sounds like a good idea, i agree with the proposal and we should do it if the moderators are willing to support the move or are unable to come up with a reasonable alternative. ] (]) 10:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	: Sounds good, but would be even better if it could be done without re-inventing the wheel. We have most everything that has been said, and needs to be said, already here. We need participants to focus only on a solution, and resist the temptation to rehash the same old diverting arguments. ]<font color="black">e</font>] 17:12, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	::''"Statenent process - The Rerun"'' - what a joke - Regards. ] (]) 20:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::If this process ever reaches a conclusion, then it's a good move. The problem might be to get Irish editors interested again, otherwise the process will be skewed. Put the crisis in diplomatic language, create a new page named ], let the argument discuss who has the privilege of using the new page. The loser gets the ] page. Mission accomplished:) ] (]) 21:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::No, Redking7. My reading of things is that we are looking for guidance in agreeing a procedure to take us forward. The crumbs are on the table; we now have to push them into shape. There seem to be three routes. First that the moderators magically impose an acceptable-to-all answer (which they cannot and will not do). Second that we, the few, settle the issue (not easy). Third that we, the few, narrow, distil and express the options and arguments and then present them to the larger wiki community to determine the matter. I can’t see a better way of earning a ]. ] ] 22:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
	:In the absences of anything bar headcounting so far from the moderators, I too would support BHG's proposal. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Approve. -- ]·] 17:23, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
	::Re Noble Peace Prize - ''"First that the moderators magically impose an acceptable-to-all answer"'' - There is no possibility of a solution "acceptable to all". What is necessary is for the Moderators to weigh up the options and impose a decision. Its as simple as that - as for "distilling the options". Are you serious....Are you really saying they are not already distilled....its "Ireland", "Republic of Ireland", "Ireland (state"). Hardly any need for any distilling etc...Where have you been...See the project page...The "options" are perfectly distilled! Lets get a decision. Only Moderators have the authority to make one "one way or the other". Regards. ] (]) 19:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
	== What happened to the Moderators? ==
	I thought they were to weigh up the statements and if no consensus emerged "close the discussion", i.e. make the decision? Why have they not done so? ] (]) 19:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
	:My recollection is the 31st March deadline was always for the first round only. ] (]) 20:17, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
	::I agree. Redking7, how and why did you form your view? ] ] 20:22, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::''"First round?"'' What does that mean? Please explain? Which "round" is next? How many "rounds" will there be? ] (]) 01:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::That has not been decided. ] ] 09:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::"Hi Redking7, this process originated here, I don't honestly believe it was intended as a ruse, more of a back up plan. That said, I think setting a timeframe for this process is a good idea. PhilKnight (talk) 00:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC) " Why the change of mind PhilKnight? Now you don't think a timeframe is a good idea...Why don't you just set a timetable - a fundamental and basic part of any credible process. Regards. ] (]) 10:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Note to moderators...please endorse the bhg plan. ] ] 11:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I disagree. BHG is not a moderator. Let the real moderators do what they have to do.] (]) 11:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Irrelevant. You too can come up with a plan. ] ] 11:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
	Agree with MusicInTheHouse - I do not support BHG's "plan" and I agree that it is for the Moderators to make the decisions. Regards. ] (]) 18:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Any update on the what is going to happen? 14 days since end of statements. Maybe this process has failed?--] (]) 03:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
	::A plan is being formulated no doubt. Why the impatience and pessimism? ] ] 08:06, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
	Redking, it is not for the moderators to impose a decision. That was never agreed. If you want a decision imposed, then the matter will have to be referred back to ArbCom. ] (]) 09:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::DrKiernan - First off, may I ask are you one of the Moderators?
	:::Second - Please read the following (copied and pasted from a passage above where I had asked, inter alia, whether the process was a "ruse" etc)....My understanding from the following exchange is that the Moderators can decide to impose a solution - You might set me straight if I am wrong - My understanding from the below was that as Edokter said, the Moderators can "decide the outcome". Regards. ] (]) 21:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::''We have a mandate to "establish a procedure" that will help the community in reaching consensus. But if these procedures fail, the procedure could well mean that the moderators decide the outcome. I just hope it doesn't come to that. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — ] • ] • </span> 01:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)''
	:::::''Redking7 seems to think that "closing the discussion" is some sort of passive act. At AFD and CFD, it is far from that: the closing admin takes a pro-active role in weighing consensus. --] <small>] • (])</small> 01:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)''
	::::::''Ok, Thanks BrownHariedGirl and Moderators - Yes, I did misunderstand "closing a discussion" - It sounds like the moderators will be able to make a substantive decision on 1 May after all. Well I am glad to hear it. Regards. ] (]) 11:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)''
	Where did "on 1 May" come from? My belief is that the moderators are merely considering where the procedure goes next. ] ] 21:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
	== Its over a week since even one edit...Moderators!==
	The Staements Process is over. I don't think any "Endorsements etc" are going on. Not a single edit has been made on this discussion page in over a week.....'''MODERATORS''' - The process is over. Please now make your decision and "close the discussion". Why the delay? You are letting us all down. Regards. ] (]) 22:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
	: lol the moderators are not to blame for the mess we are in. Please direct your anger at ARBCOM which didnt have the guts to tackle this hard issue themselves and simply sent it back for the same people to try and resolve something that has been disputed for years.
	: The silence on this page is rather disturbing though. :) ] (]) 20:59, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
	::'''Moderators''' - I do not like to sound ''melodramatic'' but perhaps you could each do the decent thing, resign and ask new Moderators to step in. You don't seem to be contributing anything to the process which now needs to be closed. (note to Britishwatcher - the Moderators took on this role and owe it to us to fulfil their role). Regards. ] (]) 18:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::I'm open to recall as an admin, so I guess I should be as a moderator. So, if 5 members ask me to resign, I will. Otherwise, I'll find time tomorrow to post on how I think we should try and move forwards. ] (]) 19:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::I vote for patience. Thank you for your time and thought. ] ] 19:39, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::I agree with Kitty. If 5 editors ask you to stay, will you stay? There is no reason to rush. All of us here are volunteers. The world has survived the current state of play. It hasn't contributed to the global recession, nor any death's. Hopefully any decisions made as a result of this process will be good enough to stand the test of time. Let's give them some time to develop. ] (]) 19:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I don't think anyone was calling for heads Phil, just some feedback of what might happen next and when , which you have now given. Everyone appreciates the time being spent on this issue by the Mods. ] (]) 20:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
	At least, the squabling has slowed to a crawl on the Ireland naming related articles. ] (]) 19:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
	:GoodDay..the "ruse" I first referred to some weeks back (above) is working. Regards. ] (]) 23:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
	:: We should take as long as needed to resolve the matter, till then the articles current names remain the same, they are accurate. Im strongly against any of the mods resigning at this point, bringing in new people would slow down the process even more. Just give everyone a chance to move forward. ] (]) 09:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	== Moving forwards ==
	To recap, there has been a first round, based around ], which hasn't produced an especially clear result. The approach of making ] a disambiguation page probably has the most support, but there isn't enough consensus to declare a winner. Consequently there has to be, at the very least, some sort of second round. Given the lack of a clear result, in the second round, other rival approaches to making ] a disambiguation page should be allowed. Also, there has been some discussion about whether the next round should be a poll where votes are counted, or a discussion where consensus is assessed. From this discussion, the next round probably shouldn't just be a poll, and editors should be allowed to make comments. However, I doubt that threaded argument will get us anywhere. Accordingly, I propose the second round should be similar in format to ], where editors make comments under headings of 'Support', 'Oppose' and 'Neutral'. Some discussion is allowed, but longer threads can be moved to the talk page. ] (]) 23:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
	::My oh my - so many weeks waiting for that! Please PhilKnight - resign (as I suggested above). A few lines of vague loose suggestions hardly counts as leadership and shows the time committment you have made to the process. Not even a mention a timeframe for the next "round".... Wow. How you can stand over that performance, I don't know. I suppose the other Moderators are even worse. They've stayed silent yet again. Regards. ] (]) 00:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::Not sure if that helps Redking. Why do you think his proposal is no good and what would be your alternative proposal on the way to go forward? ] (]) 00:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::Answer: I wouldn't regard the vague suggestions (lots of "some sort", allowing "rival approaches (?)", "probably shouldn't...have polls", "make comments" (on what?), "doubt that threaded argument...", "similar in format") as amounting to a "proposal". Answer to what should be done: The Moderators should close the discussion and choose where the island, state or DAB pages should be etc. ] (]) 00:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	It will never be possible to get everyone to agree on a single solution, so the next best solution is to go with the majority. For problem 1 there seems to be a majority for ] to be a disambiguation page. On problem 2.2, everyone is agreed that the island of Ireland article should either be at ] or ], so a decision on problem 1 will also decide problem 2.2. We should now check to see if there really is a majority for "Ireland" to be a disambiguation page. If we move forward on this point, at least we should be able to decide on two of the problems. In the past, polls have been opposed for the republic article because of concerns that UK editors will outnumber Irish editors. Are there such concerns for a poll/debate on the island article? ] (]) 07:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:I remain in favour of BrownHairedGirl's approach. ] ] 08:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:: Agreed the suggestion by Brownhairedgirl above might be the way forward. As for Redking, he needs to stop trying to pick a fight and actually contribute to the debate, not cause trouble. ] (]) 09:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::So, given the (almost unanimous) enthusiasm for the BHG route, let's just DO IT. ] ] 09:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::Ha. Since when is one person 'almose unanimous'. I say go for what the real moderators want to do. I just hope they become decisive in their actions sooner rather than later.] 09:47, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::There were 8 in favour. We should do it, as it is the only option of the four proposals (mine, BHG's, Phil's and Redking7's) with more than two supporters. ] (]) 10:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I wonder what the point is of having moderators if their ideas are dismissed. Wouldn't it be wiser to wait for the other moderators (or ask them) to give their opinion on the way forward? ] (]) 10:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I'm happy to try Phil's proposal, if that is the majority choice. ] (]) 10:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::The moderators are saying very clearly that it is for us not them to take this forward. It sounds to me that we have three proposals. First Redking7 who thinks the moderators should decide an outcome now and then Philknight should resign. Then edokter should resign being worse than phil. I am unsure how this works or takes us forward; it seems gently anarchic. Second solution ís philknight’s who proposes more statements. Not sure how that works either. Third solution is BrownHairedGirl’s which is constructive, purposeful and has broad support. My proposal is that Arbcom add Snowded and BHG as additional moderators, and that we proceed with the BHG route. ] ] 11:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::BHG has already emphatically shown her partisanship in this matter so proposing her as a moderator is a non starter. ] (]) 11:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::: I agree to a certain extent with Rashers but I'd tolerate her now that you have recommended another editor to be a moderator alongside her. But her disagreeing with the apparent consensus from the first round of statements is a problem, without doubt.] 11:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:I would be interested to know what PhilKnight (and other moderators reading this) think of BrownHairedGirl's suggestion at the start of the ''Building on what we have done so far and getting to a conclusion'' section above? That seems to have all the same elements as PhilKnight's proposal here, but in a way that should reduce the number of possibilities that we are discussing / voting on to a manageable number whilst simultaneously allowing anyone to bring their own variants to the table. — ] (]) 11:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::I may be wrong here but shouldn't moderators come in with no POV on the subject. I'm not saying BrownHairedGirls suggestion should not be implemented but perhaps not as a moderator. I can see the process stalling due to other editors objecting to this. If BHG'S suggestion is implemented then why not let the present moderators continue their moderating as before. To clarify, I'm not saying BHG would not be a good moderator, only that there may be some objections to it which would not be a good start. ] (]) 12:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::I'm sorry, I don't understand what "I'm not saying BrownHairedGirls suggestion should not be implemented but perhaps not as a moderator" means. BHG's suggestion doesn't require her to be a moderator if that's your concern. I don't believe that she is proposing any change to who the moderators are or what they should do. — ] (]) 13:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::Kittybrewster above suggested bringing in Snowded and BrownHairedGirl as moderators. ] (]) 13:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::OK, well that's not what I was talking about. As I said, I was referring to "BrownHairedGirl's suggestion at the start of the ''Building on what we have done so far and getting to a conclusion'' section above". That has nothing to do with who the moderators are. And I would still be interested to hear the moderators' opinions on that suggestion. — ] (]) 14:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::So you do understand what I meant when I said there was no reason not to implement BrownHairedGirls suggestion (which you mentioned in your post)? My mention of BHG's possible role as moderator was my opinion on Kittybrewster's proposal. Glad that's cleared up then. Anything else you don't understand just let me know. ;) ] (]) 22:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I think we need more moderators than we have (which is 2). That is a different issue from following the BHG proposal which also sounds good to me. I too would like the moderators' views on it. ] ] 22:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	I still don't see how this process is going to solve the entire Ireland naming dispute. Changing the titles of two or three articles does not solve the dispute about how to refer to the state in the many hundreds or thousands of other articles throughout Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 10:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:I would think it's a case of one step at a time. ] (]) 10:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::No. All the issues need to be solved together. It won't work otherwise. ] (]) 13:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::If all the issues were solved together it would be a win win for everyone. Easier said than done though. If you believe that to be the case how would you go about it? ] (]) 13:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::I agree with Mooretwin and Jack. Win win is good. BHG route should get us there and is consistent with PhilKnight's (rather less specific) recommendation. ] ] 22:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Agree with DrKiernan's sentiments and the general expression of disappointment with the moderators. Regards. ] (]) 18:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::I certainly would like the moderators to direct us to follow the BHG process. ] ] 22:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::Going back to the need for more moderators. Your suggestion of Snowded and BrownHairedGirl sounds fine to me. My only worry was that there may be others who would object, or maybe not. Would it be a good idea to put the possibility of it to Snowded and BHG and find out if they are even willing to do it if asked? ] (]) 23:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::JackeForbes - "My only worry was that there may be others who would object" - appointing BHG as a "Moderator" was floated before and the same logic applies - BHG is partisan not neutral - if she is being appointed, I want to be appointed to. Same applies to Snowded. Neither can be regarded as "neutral". (Note to Phil and other Moderators - are you each going to resign now please - you've proven you can't be bothered with the process). Regards. ] (]) 05:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Only Arbcom can appoint mmoderators. ] ] 09:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	The way this might work is demonstrated by:
	. I suggest a deadline of 15 May for the end of the statement drafting/endorsing process. ] (]) 08:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Was that the procedure/process used on '''Gdansk'''? If so I am inclined towards it. But not the deadline. ] ] 09:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::No, I think that was just a straight vote like this: . ] (]) 10:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::So the big differences are (1) supporting votes only (2) only one vote each. Do we start a fresh round of statements? Who removes existing support and oppose votes? ] ] 11:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::My version of the statement process says any editor can remove oppose votes. The endorse votes can stay as long as the statement remains unaltered, but substantive edits (as opposed to simple typos) require the agreement of all endorsers. For people who've endorsed more than one statement, I suggest removing the older vote. ] (]) 11:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I am happy about that but we need consent from Phil who proposed "editors make comments under headings of 'Support', 'Oppose' and 'Neutral'." without proposing the purpose behind his proposed Round 2. Can you get Phil, Edokter and BHG to contribute here??? ] ] 11:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Now I am confused. ] ] 12:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Your confused! Thank goodness, I thought I was the only one. ] (]) 13:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	To DrKiernan. Did the Gdansk poll work, and if so did the decision actually stick? If it did then I would be inclined to go with a tried and tested method. ] (]) 14:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::: Yes, it did. ] ] 21:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::As with any ], it worked for those who shared the majority view. ] (]) 21:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:] still apply. ] (]) 14:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	===Options for next phase===
	# Extended statement process with no opposers and single votes and
	# RfA-style poll/debate
	# Moderators impose article names
	# community-wide ] per but possibly
	Choose an option.
	:What is the community participation rate on this page? I know that it has a number of people from each "side", but how representative is it of the interested community at large? Merely having each "side" represented does not mean that participants on this page are representative of the mood of the community at large. It makes for a good ] but not a good ].ny kind of vote is a non-runner (and neither should weight be attributed to the numbers representing either "side" here).
	:If we are to have a vote it needs to take place on ] or ] not here. (The regular contributor to this page.) --] (]) 14:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::Yep, have it where you'll get the most participation. ] (]) 15:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::My preference is for BHG approach followed by community-wide Gdansk poll. I don't understand Phil's approach. I don't think Redking7's approach would stick. And I endorse Mooretwin's statement that we want all choices dealt with in a multi-commmunity-poll per Gdansk. ] ] 17:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::I invite folk to contribute on the DRAFT page ]. ] ] 18:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Eire? Seriously? ] (]) 20:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I thought that as well but it has been changed.] 20:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I am going to reinsert Éire as an optsion per ] particularly because we have been forbidden to discuss such options by the presumably now retired moderators ("Please, for the moment, refrain from discussing the individual Ireland naming options until we agree on a procedure."). There is no agreed procedure. But by all means argue against it. ] ] 21:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::This process is becoming farcical. The Mods need to assert their role or stop the pretence. ] (]) 21:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::Kitty, don't misrepresent me by altering my edits. You can forget 'good faith'. ] (]) 21:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::I agree with you RashersTierney - "This process is becoming farcical. The Mods need to assert their role or stop the pretence." Regards. ] (]) 21:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Rashers I was not meaning to misrepresent you. I understood from MITH that you and he find Eire offensive whereas Éire is not offensive. I had no plans to offend; I didn't know how to put the accent on. Redking7, I know what you mean. I am taking the view that they have retired and left it to us to work together. So let us do that. Unless Rashers prefers to do something else instead of AGF. ] ] 22:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:I don't find either term offensive, in context, but changing another editors input is a big no-no. ] (]) 22:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	(ui) Just to clarify, use of Éire is just an inaccurate as Eire in the English language.] 22:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Why? ] ] 22:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I presume the moderators were appointed. Why can't the arbitrators be asked to appoint new ones? ] (]) 22:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::They can. ] ] 22:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::There's a relevant thread ]. ] (]) 22:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::Retrospectively changing edits is not helpful. There is no consensus for any of the above options. This page is intended to be moderated and we should refrain from lobying until ArbCom have nominated alternative moderators. ] (]) 11:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Perhaps I'm missing some subtlety, but it appears to me that ArbCom are being asked to impose a voting process. How does that work 'for the time being'? ] (]) 10:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	== I am stepping down as a moderator ==
	I am sorry to inform all of you that I will resign as a moderator of this project. I have failed to provide any usefull contributions as such, and find myself unable to assign any more time and effort. The two main reason being that 1) I have no experience in such a big mediation, and accepting the task has been a mistake. 2) I have been involved in a dispute of my own that is consuming all my attention, making it impossible for me to focus on any other task that requires a long-span attention. I will inform ArbCom of my decision. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — ] • ] • </span> 22:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	:Thank you for making your decision in order for the project to progress. Can you also ask ArbCom to appoint another moderator in your place?] 22:20, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::I'll resign as well. I'm sorry for not being to help. ] (]) 22:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
	::: The decision by both of you on this matter is understandable and i think its wrong for anyone to blame either of you for the current state of affairs. The only people guilty of incompetence and a failure to provide leadership are ARBCOM who despite years of disputes and months of attempting to get them to act simply passed it back to everyone here to try and resolve.
	::: Its about time ARBCOM had the guts to decide something themselves instead of passing it on like a ticking time bomb. Edokter and Phil thank you both for stepping up to try and help solve this problem in the first place, most other people would of refused (even Jimbo Wales did).
	::: Anyway we are back at stage one again, the current setup should remain and we should all just move on with our lives. Peace =) ] (]) 11:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::It's rare for the Arbcom to create & force a solution on such disagreements. But, they may eventually have to, in this case. ] (]) 15:43, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I think ArbCom should just get ] on the job. He wrote Misplaced Pages policy, the most notable of which is ]. You really can't do better than that.] 15:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Thanks for doing the decent thing and resigning Edokter and PhilKnight. I agree with those who would like to put this on ARBcom - clearly mediation has failed. ] (]) 17:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Um, the right thing? They buggered off for a month after the statements had closed and then after doing nothing they came in and quit. I don't see "thanks" as appropriate here. -- ]·] 08:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
	I ask again - what was wrong with the solution provided by the Ireland Disambiguation Task Force? ] (]) 17:27, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	:What was IDTF's solution (I'm too lazy, to look)? ] (]) 17:35, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	::See ] (]) 20:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::(ec) Actually ] and now moderation has failed too. The Ireland Disambiguation Task Force also failed because it was populated by too few interested editors. Arbcom needs to take this in hand themselves and make a final decision. ] (]) 17:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::IDTF got more interest than anything else I have seen on the subject. Far more than this shambles. ] (]) 20:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
	I have put a note on ]'s page to ask his opinion. -- ]·] 08:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
	== Request for comment on content dispute resolution ==
	There's a ] which could be of interest. ] (]) 23:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
	== Movement ==
	Reading this page, it seems like there is general agreement (although not unanimous) that BHG's proposal for determining the solution to Problem 1 is a useful way forward. If what you need is a thoroughly neutral party to assist with organization and to set a deadline, then I'm sure an appropriate and willing editor can be found. I'm happy to volunteer, but I'm sure that with such a simple job description many other neutral editors would be willing to assist. I think its quite possible that this method will lead, eventually, to a permanent solution; on the other hand, if the outcome isn't conclusive, then the exercise will have been valuable of itself. ]] <sup>(formerly Avruch)</sup> 23:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
	:It's nice to see someone offering their services but in reality we're looking for administrators to take charge. They're alot more accountable for what they do then your average user. However I'm sure I can speak for us all when I say it'd be nice someone new contribute here day to day.
	:On a side note ] - the admin who designed and wrote Misplaced Pages naming conflict policy has agreed to put some input into all this. He's currently pretty busy sorting out the ] but hopefully he'll post here sooner rather than later.] 00:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
	== Moderators ==
	* ''Cross-posted from: ].''
	The three moderators appointed by the Arbitration Committee for ] are no longer active in the project under that capacity. These disengagements occurred voluntarily and separately under individual conditions without controversy. {{user|PhilKnight}}, {{user|Edokter}}, and {{user|SebastianHelm}} are all thanked for their hard work and efforts as moderators. In response to the openings, the Committee appoints {{user|Masem}} and {{user|Xavexgoem}} as moderators, thanking them for taking on this task. A third moderator is not yet appointed, pending discussion with the participants.
	For the Committee, --] (]) 15:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
	There seems to be a lot of ambivalence towards the previous round of moderation. What had failed on the part of the moderators, and how do we now fix that? --] (]) 07:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	: The failure was no clear process, we got bogged down in nice pretty little charts and tables but nobody had a clue what it all meant. We all submitted statements which people could agree or disagree with but as was obviously going to happen the people were divided over which had support and what they opposed. So after the statements were in there was no plan on what to do with them. Thats when it all broke down, the moderators were certainly not to blame we just jumped into statements too soon without thinking of how to come to a final resolution. For this not to be another failure we all need to know '''very''' clearly what will be decided, who will make the final decission, how it will be made and when it will be decided once and for all. ] (]) 09:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	In the previous round we agreed on the ], and agreed that a ] process was the best way to proceed at first. However, at the end of the statement process there was no clear consensus on (1) what they showed or (2) how to proceed next.
	On point (1), this is because the statements are wide-ranging, numerous and various, and sometimes unfocused or lacking a certain clarity. In future, we need to ensure more focus on the problems and a smaller number of more specific statements, where the arguments on each side and the number of editors supporting each side are clear. This is suggested as option 1 of the four ]. While this may not provide consensus either, it should at least make clear the majority view, or produce clear potential statements that could be taken forward into discussion or used as the basis of a poll.
	On point (2), I fear it will be too difficult at this stage, with a set of unclear statements, to agree how any future decisions will be reached. Option 1 does not prejudge any future phases of the process but it does provide a stronger base from which to proceed. Clearer statements with clear numbers will make it easier to discuss the shape of the next phase. ] (]) 10:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	:On point 1, the moderators did identify what they showed. Right ] in fact.] 10:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Fine, but we need to confirm that it is the consensus or majority view. Otherwise, the arguments over page names will continue. ] (]) 10:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	I may be reading this wrong, but ] as a disambig seems to have the broadest appeal (31 for, 10 against). Am I correct in assuming that the larger problem, broadly speaking, is the naming of the articles the disambig could/would point to? ] (]) 11:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC) <small>I'm still collecting all the info, so for the moment I might be a bit slow</small>
	:In a way yes, though in my opinion, I'd say there already is consensus for ] and ]. The problem is the previous moderators never really took any action to confirm it or implement what they said was consensus or anything. They took statements and a rough consensus could be seen, but left it at that.] 11:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	::(note: my previous question still stands for anyone who wishes to answer) What are the likely results of a moderator implementing those changes based on that rough consensus? ] (]) 11:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::If those results are intrepretated as consensus it would involve ] being moved to ], ] being moved to ], ] being moved to ] and a new ] article being created. The moderator would also need to clarify the situation what would happen with related articles. ie. Would ] be moved to ] due the parent article move and all that.] 11:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Why would you impose "Ireland (state)" when there are 21 votes for it and 41 votes for "Republic of Ireland", according to ]. (I'm not saying these "Totals" are correct, in fact I think they're incorrect, which is why we need them confirmed.) ] (]) 11:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::I wouldn't, which is why I ask. Any result will be unpopular, but it's been asked for a moderator to go through with what they determine is the consensus. Does this project want moderators who keeps discussion civil and are therefore unpopular because they do not implement anything, or does this project want moderators who are unpopular because they implement a weak consensus? Or is there hope that a near-100% consensus is attainable? ] (]) 11:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Because there is more opposition to Republic of Ireland; there is also 41 votes against it. Ireland (state) has 15 votes against. Thats what consensus is about, finding the solution that the least amount of people disagree on. The whole case started due to the disagreement of Republic of Ireland. It didn't have consensus itself for being the title it only remained as it was the status quo. This process has shown there is not much objection to the use of ].] 11:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::: We have all known from the start and the statement results prove it as well that there are two options with huge opposition which are unacceptable to different parties. Ireland (the country) at ] Is unacceptable because it ignores the fact theres also an island called Ireland and its shared with another country. Ireland (the country) at ] is unacceptable to some people because its not the real title or commonly used title of the country. These are the two options which cause the most conflict.
	:::: The other choices are less of a problem such as having a disam page at ] or keeping the article on the island of Ireland at ]. It would probably be easier and result in a resolution sooner if we removed the two choices which clearly cause conflict and decide on the moderate options which are reasonably acceptable to all people. ] (]) 12:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::"The whole case started due to the disagreement of Republic of Ireland. It didn't have consensus itself for being the title it only remained as it was the status quo." ~MITH. This is disingenuos and not entirely accurate. Many editors ''strongly prefer'' the status quo as a favoured option. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::The result of it being 41 for and 41 against ROI in this collaboration would prove my point. I'm not denying there's a number pro ROI, but there's certainly no way you can say there was ever an overwhelming consensus to keep it in the last 18 months or so. Back then (this is before on I edited on Misplaced Pages) I saw there was move requests every second month nearly and it always ended up being a stale mate leaving the status quo. With Mooretwin's proposal there was a large majority to move it away from ROI, however that broke down due to lack of consensus in other areas. Looking through the archives of the talk page the last vote I can see was 12-11 in favour of ROI in August 2008. That's not exactly an obvious consensus is it?] 18:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
	One point that I saw when looking at the history was not just the impact on the naming of the country article and the geography article, but also the impact on the naming of "Something of X" articles. Does anyone have a list of what articles may be affected in naming only by the results of this collaboration? Is it worth considering how those are to be affected by this? --] (]) 13:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	:The closest you'll get to a list is , however there are some sovereign state only topics which just use just 'Ireland' in the title and they are located at . My own thoughts are that I thought that related articles would just simply follow suit in the naming of the sovereign state article and that a seperate discussion wasn't necessary.
	:However I know that there are other opinions. Some feel Ireland should be used for all related articles for the state as they feel there is nothing so notable about the island by itself to have its own articles and break the mould of having articles relate to the sovereign countries like elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. Then there are a few others who wish to have Republic of Ireland in related articles even if the main article moves to ] for linguistic and aesthetic reasons. The previous moderators didn't acknowledge this issue and it would be up to yourself to say what you think should be done on the matter.] 16:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	::It's certainly do-able, but very early yet. It occurs to me that <nowiki>]</nowiki> and other piped links will work when the context is obvious in text. It can be worked out in a case-by-case basis where it isn't. Is that a good solution? ] (]) 00:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Everyone is familiar with piping, especially when it comes to the Ireland naming issue (check out ]), so I think that's a perfectly acceptable solution.] 10:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Sure, I agree that a separate discussion should not be necessary but it is worthwhile to consider what impact the result here has on the names of the related articles. There is some confusion between an aspect of the geography and an aspect of the country, particularly with overlap (there's ] and ], for example). Thus, I think it's worth a bit of extra effort to make sure the end solution propigates well to any Ireland-named article. (Inline links will have to be worked out separately). -] (]) 13:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::You're going over ground that's already been discussed in the IDTF. ] (]) 14:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Would you care to give a link to this discussion that took place on related titles to help the moderators? I'm not seeing one myself.] 14:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Read the discussion in the IDTF page that I linked earlier (in the post to which you replied at 12.00 today). ] (]) 15:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::That links to the discussion on your proposal which failed to gain consensus not to a discussion about other related articles. Xavexgoem says he/she sees it, I don't. Could you provide a link to the discussion about how related articles would be affected and which are not about the moving of the main articles. Thanks.] 15:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I see it (Republic of Ireland → Ireland (state)). There is still the option of using that compromise, too, although it looks like opinions have shifted. ] (]) 14:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	== Invitation to discussion ==
	A third moderator has not yet been appointed. Some participants have indicated that the presence of an arbitrator on the project could be helpful. In general, how do members of this project feel about one or two arbitrators taking a more active role here? If one or more arbitrators take part, should they officially be project moderators? What sort of role should they take? Should they be directly active, as would be traditionally considered for a moderator? Should they take a more distant role, focusing on occasional advice and oversight? What would you expect from an arbitrator looking to assist this project? Thank for your time and consideration of these questions.
	For the Committee, --] (]) 16:11, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
	: I would support an arbitrator with a brief to manage and structure the process and prevent constant repetition of the same points/arguments, focusing on securing and recording agreements progressively. Limited discussion to agreed issues as the process unfolds. One of the issues here is the degree of knowledge of the issues necessary. Some language to an outsider may appear inconsequential but will carry historical baggage (to just take one example). I think some knowledge of the historical context, the tensions before an around the Troubles and the GFA will be necessary. --] (]) 16:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
	: I would strongly support one or two arbitrators taking an active role in trying to resolve this long standing problem. The main focus as said by Snowded should be on sorting out the process fully before we proceed to make sure there is a final resolution, what ever that may. Otherwise we will end up with a process like before where we all spend weeks agreeing to statements with no idea what to do with them after. ] (]) 18:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
	::I would also very much support an arbitrator getting involved. What I would like to see is someone who sets out whats to be done, how we're doing to do it and what it'll mean in the grand scheme of things. They wouldn't have to been involved day to day but for example if they've set a deadline on something, then they'd need to be involved in that process making sure everything was adhered to etc. ] 23:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::An Arbitrator would be cool. Also (hang on to your hats) a non-Administrator would be acceptable to me. ] (]) 14:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
	Why can't we just take the to its conclusion? It came very close to reaching consensus on ALL issues, but was supplanted by this crazy process. ] (]) 11:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Mooretwin if there was consensus obtained elsewhere it would have been implemented. You're the only one who keeps referring to the task force as the piece in question was your proposal. You're becoming a bit of a broken record on this. Notice that no one else think consensus was gained there and no one else is mentioning it. The task force happened, it failed and we moved onto arbitration. People are now putting their effort into that rather than looking back over the same old arguments and debates where consensus wasn't reached. There are moderators here now. Let them do their job so we can move forward once and for all.] 12:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::There's no reason why "arbitration" or "moderators" couldn't implement the Task Force proposal. Have you actually read the page? Have you seen the extent and breadth of support it achieved? Why are you scared of it? ] (]) 12:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::That link is actually very helpful to us. It at least tells us that there is a strong incentive to have ] refer to the island, and not a disambig to both the island and the state. --] (]) 12:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::The IDTF proposal was implemented. That's what led to the RFAR. ] (]) 12:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::It wasn't implemented. You're referring to an arbitrary attempt to implement one aspect of a solution whose very purpose was to be comprehensive. The IDTF proposal has to be agreed and implemented in totality. ] (]) 13:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	== Merits of "] as disambiguation" compared to merits of "] as the island" ==
	I have seen two broad-ish consensuses - which my spellchecker is informing me ''is'' actually a word - that either support moving Ireland to a disambig, or support keeping it in its present form as an article on the island. I want to start with this, since this seems to be the less troublesome divide. Assuming for the moment that ] will be either of these two choices, what is your opinion on your preferred choice over the other? ] (]) 12:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC) <small>This isn't an exercise in consensus; I just need to nail down why some people prefer one over the other so I can move from there</small>
	<!-- Preferred if you use one bullet point, such that this section will look like
	* my opinion ~~~~
	* MY opinion ~~~~
	* etc
	-->
	* In my opinion this is largely covered by ]. ] (]) 12:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	** Touché ^^; Alright. I'd still like to hear the opinions on the other option -- that Ireland should refer to the island -- particularly from Mooretwin and others. --] (]) 12:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Disambiguation''' per the overall agreement of ].] 12:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	*What's the point in repeating the process of asking everyone for their opinions again? This has been done countless times. For the record, (i) the primary meaning of Ireland is the island (has been for centuries) and not the state (so-called (controversially) for a mere 72 years). The state takes its name ''from'' the island; and (ii) having ] as a disambiguation page just means thousands of WP users are sent to a useless page rather than the one they want (which is most often the "island" page and not the "state" page). ] (]) 13:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	** Point 2 is easily addressed with a bot and/or hardwork; that can be handled by the moderators. That leaves point 1: Ireland is primarily referred to as the island. I myself, when thinking of Ireland, think about the state. Can you be swayed, Mooretwin? --] (]) 13:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::How would a bot address point 2? If it by-passed the disambiguation page what would be the point of having a disambiguation page? And where would it direct users to? You may think of the state when you think of Ireland, but 1.7m people living in Ireland but outside "the state" do not. Nor do most others in my view, such as the authors and readers of travel guides. It is rare, in my experience for people to distinguish between the two - when I travel I am from Ireland, people don't care if it's North or South. ] (]) 14:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::No bot then; it will have to be up to us to implement any changes. Bypassing a disambig is reasonable if the correct article can be linked to from context.
	::::My main point was that you hold a minority position, the merits of any position notwithstanding. If most say do ''this'', and a few say do ''that'', what happens? Nothing can come of this if there isn't a clear consensus. Is there any concession here? --] (]) 14:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Who says I hold a minority position? The answer to your question is you seek a comprehensive compromise such as that at IDTF, which involves everyone agreeing to a package, elements of which they like and others they don't. The compromise on IDTF involved changing the name of the "Republic of Ireland" page, which I do not agree with, but am willing to accept as part of a compromise package. ] (]) 15:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Mooretwin could you please stop trying to push your 6 month old proposal? Frankly nobody cares about it other than yourself and it wasn't mentioned once during this process which has gone one for a few months. To help this along I will quote Misplaced Pages policy on disambiguation pages: ''If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)"''.It seems clear to me what should be done.] 15:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::: I'm not sure how you can say it wasn't mentioned once during this process when his proposal forms the substance of his Statement submitted to this process (endorsed by a number of people), which means it is as much a part of this process as any idea. ] (]) 13:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::I didn't realise his previous proposal formed his statement. It wasn't really mentioned as having the potential to be something which could gain consensus in this whole process. Only 3 supported it while three times that number opposed it.] 13:45, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::: It may not get consensus, but that doesn't justify statements like "nobody cares" and "it wasn't mentioned once". As much support as your statement seems to have had in the statement process, it doesn't follow that even that will ultimately get the consensus needed for your idea to be implemented either. I think both your proposal and Mooretwin's are reasonable and, frankly, (although it may not seem so at first glance), they really aren't all *that* different. You support a disambig page for "Ireland"; Mooretwin proposes a trimmed down 'all-island' page (a disambig page--it should be noted--*is* an all-island page, just, pressumably, a much shorter one). You both support removing "RoI" as the title of the state's page and both acknowledge the need for use of "Ireland"/"RoI" in text (not just titles) to be addressed, and both believe that RoI does need to be used sometimes in text. ] (]) 14:19, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I'm still catching up; I apologize for that characterization. It's beginning to appear that the ArbCom case was a bit strange. It may have been better if their decision was to provide mediation on the discussion you started at IDTF, instead of starting from scratch. The problem is that we're all the way over here, now, and the problem appears more obfuscated than it did originally. I'm getting a ton of mixed messages. That compromise ''did'' have a lot of support... why wasn't it resurrected? The more I look at this case, the more I feel I'm at some point in one giant, bizarre circle. --] (]) 15:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Your final point is the one thing on which everyone is agreed. ] (]) 15:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Mooretwin's proposal was deliberately structured as a package. The benefit of the package was that it demanded a little bit of compromise from nearly everybody, but that it actually had as close to a consensus that we've seen. I don't believe you'll achieve the same thing by addressing points singly. I welcome the active participation of Arbitrators on this topic. --] (]) 16:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::I agree. Moderation isn't going to work with the present discussion; there's too much inertia in totally separate directions. I'll contact the committee tomorrow; I'm very, very tired. ] (]) 16:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Disambiguation''', as so many places historically & present, use the name ''Ireland''. ] (]) 13:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
	:: And, yet, every last one of them is in some way tied up with the same one island. Even ] was named after someone who came from there. :-) ] (]) 13:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
	:"... as so many places historically & present, use the name Ireland." - No more or less than any other place. I notice, GoodDay, that got more traffic last month than . Are you suggesting that a page that got 2,032 hits last month should be put front-and-centre over the 93rd ranked page (at 200,904 page views last month) on Misplaced Pages. That is what would happen if you made ] a dab page.
	:The simplest argument against ] being made into a dab page is that so few of our users visit ]. There is no evidence of demand from our users or such a drastic change. It is unwarranted. --] (]) 19:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Your argument is deeply flawed. If a disambiguation page replaced the island of Ireland article then it would get just as many hits as the current article, what reader is going to type "Ireland (disambiguation)" instead of just "Ireland"?] (]) 04:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Flawed? I think the logic that says "I know people want to read about the island, but lets show them that there is a disambiguation dispute first" is entirely flawed, and is written from the perspective of the editor/member and not from the perspective of the user. ] (]) 06:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Just be aware that your argument appears to be based on an assumption that people type in "Ireland" in order to read about the island. What about people who type in "Ireland" and want to read about the state. A lot of this debate has been concerned with primacy - which article do readers want to get to. Evidence has been produced for both arguments, and this is what has lead to the suggestion of a dab page. --] (]) 22:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::We had evidence at one point that most users who went to "Ireland" stayed there, with only a minority moving on to "Republic of Ireland", thus indicating that the "island" topic was more popular than that of the state. ] (]) 10:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Your interpretation is unsound. The argument was based on traffic to the two articles, and there was no evidence to suggest that people started at one article and selected the other. AFAIK, this isn't possible to detect. Please correct me if this is incorrect, but I cannot locate an argument that supports your assertion. --] (]) 23:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::I neither have the time nor the inclination to go hunting, but, if I did, I would go first to the IDTF pages and then to the RM (which I think was on the ROI page), or perhaps some of the discussions on the Ireland page (probably archived by now). My recollection remains that which I recounted above, but without the evidence, I cannot be 100% certain. ] (]) 08:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::The argument was that if there was a desire among our readers for disambiguation then we could expect the current dab page to get more traffic. Going by the basis of current site traffic, there is no evidence that our users want/need us to prioritise the dab page. --] (]) 12:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	The problem is the splitting of Ireland, a very recent, and probably temporary, thing (to take a long term view). For most of Ireland's history, the island and the state have the same thing. Even when Ireland as a whole was just a constituent part of the British state (by whatever name) the Nothern/Southern thing was not applicable, and the island and the constituent-country-of-the-other-state. Since some time after the start of the 20th century only part of Ireland isn't Ireland (the state). And it's a small part, and it belongs to the state over on the other island. What is the point of this early-morning meditation? If we are seeking primary topic, the island/state are really one thing, taking the long term view. In terms of primary topic, I am sure it is a fair bet that in the news "Ireland = State" wins out over "Ireland = Island". I don't see a strong reason, apart from prejudice, against '''Ireland''' = state, '''Ireland (island)''' = georgarphy etc, and '''Ireland (disambiguation)''' as a stub for towns in West Virginia or personal names or whatever. -- ]·] 08:27, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	:I entirely agree with your analysis up to the point where your argument equates "ROI = the state" "or most of Ireland's history" (you don't do this literally). I think you will also see the internal contradiction in this: on one hand you say that the partition of the Ireland is "a very recent, and probably temporary, thing", and that we should take the long view, then you say that the "primary topic" is one part of the partitioned island.
	:The primary topic is the island (or "country" or "nation"). The ROI/NI states are secondary topics (being logical sub-topics or the "country", "nation", "geography", "culture", "history" and everything else of ]).
	:(And, yes, it is a "]" to say that when *in the news* "Ireland = State" because news converge is overwhelmingly concerned with the current affairs of contemporary states. When confusion arrises, however, news media nearly always revert to the tried-and-trusted "" that we currenly employ on WP. In almost every other aspect - sport, religion, history, geography, culture, art, people, etc. - "Ireland === island (/country/nation/people/...)". Only the most obtuse contributor this this page would disagree - ] those that would say that Belfast/Lough Neagh/the Bogside/Omagh/etc. are not in Ireland ... even *before* the "Ireland", in any sense, might have meant a 26-county state!!) --] (]) 12:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Yes. I think the primary topic is "the cultural and administrative entity that runs the island" diachronically, meaning "the State" for as long as we have history and some more-or-less centralized post-tribal governance here. Even under the Crown "Ireland" was "the whole island". Partition is accidental and likely to be temporary in the long term: I doubt very much we will have a partitioned Ireland in 2209. So yes, I do think that "the big part" of the "partitioned island" is the primary topic, and I find it endlessly tiresome that a small but vocal minority with a different view keeps this pissing contest going and going and going. And yes, too, I think that what people mostly come for when they look for "Ireland" is not geography or recipes for stew: they come to find out about the State, just as it is on the news. I reject your suggestion that "the ROI/NI states are secondary topics"—In the first place, NI isn't a state, but a constituent part of a state, and the ROI is in fact "the cultural and administrative entity that runs (big part of the) the island" whether some people like that or not. I am the one who tried to bring this to an end by asking for arbitration because of what seems to me to be a deeply hostile and bad-faith game played out by the vocal minority. The result has been disappointing at best. We never managed to get the three Admins we were meant to have, and then two of them have bailed without even offering a shred of hope or direction in terms of some sort of solution. Now we hope (patiently, it is admitted), for help from someone who may, indeed, be able to help us. In the meantime, I find this whole thing to be more than demoralizing, and way beyond sad. -- ]·] 19:37, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::What an incredibly POV statement. It is an Irish-nationalist (and particularly a Southern-Irish-nationalist) POV that the 26-county state is, in fact, the real and only true "Ireland", with Northern Ireland as a temporary aberration. This view is a product of De Valera's belated acceptance of the Treaty, and his attempt to justify his acceptance of partition through the 1937 constitution, which required him to portray the 26-county state as "Ireland". This POV is also the outcome of a '''state-centric mindset''' (itself something of a nationalist (in general terms) disposition) that sees the state as of supreme importance, and geography and culture as secondary. This is why the state-centric nationalist demands that "Ireland" is primarily the name of the state and not of the island from which the state takes its name. This state-centric mindset may be common on Misplaced Pages but I suggest that amongst the majority of ordinary people across the world - people who do not give a damn about political questions - Ireland means the whole 32 counties. When someone from Ireland (North or South) travels abroad he or she is received as being from Ireland (not from the Republic and not from Northern Ireland). Tourists come on holiday to Ireland (the island). In everyday conversation, Ireland means the whole 32. ] (]) 10:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I have to agree with some of Mooretwin's points here. The POV may do a good job of representing a stereotypical Nationalist view, but is not a majority view. Equally, Mooretwins argument that a state-centric view is also a Nationalistic view is equally guilty of tarring everybody with this view with the same brush. For me, the most important aspect are the simple facts. I prefer to use the correct term in the appropriate context. So that means using Ireland to be the correct term for both the island and the state. And I am not a ''Nationalist''... --] (]) 23:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::That "small and vocal minority" has been the majority in countless polls that *some editors* have insisted on running and re-running. The majority view has been the status quo on this encyclopedia for the best part of a decade. The majority view is that the ROI/NI are secondary topics to ]. The unnatural emphasis placed by *some editors* on the names of states does not do our readers any good.
	:::Some (sensible) inspiration might be got from other encyclopedias. Britannica, for example, has only one article on . Ostensibly, that article is about the southern state (or at least the opening paragraph would lead you to think so) but the content is the equivalent to a merger between our ] and ] articles. They have no article specifically about "the island". (By the way, I don't think anyone in favour of the status quo is concerned with the "island" ''per sé'', but with the broad cultural/historical/political/etc. topic of "Ireland").
	:::I think that there would be problems with such a solution here because of the pedantic and ] nature of Wikipedians and that there is ] of a merger of ] and ]. If, so, we are to continue with the existence of both articles then it is ] (being the logical super topic) that is the primary topic - as has been seen to be the view of the majority of editors in countless polls on this subject since we split ]/]/] almost a decade ago.
	:::(Might I suggest too - without wanting to provoke you or put you down in anyway - that the reason you find the whole thing "demoralizing, and way beyond sad" is because you are not getting your own way ... either through consensus, polls, or by ].) --] (]) 21:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Your "suggestion" does not in any way accurately describe my motivations or my state of mind. -- ]·] 21:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::OK. --] (]) 22:39, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
	← The poll data I have now is insanely contradictory, and any more polling is going to cause more confusion. With that in mind, it would be for the best if we stayed away from the majority/minority comparisons; I'm not seeing it in the data, particularly as all the polls existed in their own context. Aside from which, if one were to insist, some folks are in a majority on one subject and in a minority on another.
	I'm still thinking on this. --] (]) 03:54, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
	:The polls I was referring to were the countless ones on this subject that have been run on ] and ] over the past eight years. All with the same result. --] (]) 18:00, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
	To make sure I'm clear, it sounds like there are two options on the table based on reading all the past information:
	* '''Option 1''' - The geographical island at ], the country at ], and a disambiguation page at ]
	* '''Option 2''' - The geographical island at ], the country at ], and a disambiguation page at ].
	The natural third option, with the country at ], seems to have the least support. This also discounts having the country page at ], leaving that as a redirect to wherever the country article ends up, as this seems to have little support as well. Am I correct in this assumption? --] (]) 22:02, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
	:I believe you pretty much have it nailed. I also believe that Option 1 will achieve consensus just about. --] (]) 23:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
	:: Correct option one and two are acceptable to the vast majority of people, i think option one is the better of the two and China / Taiwan articles are handled in the same way. ] (]) 08:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::I would say that more people would approve of Option 1 but Option 2 is more correct according to Misplaced Pages's policies. I'd be happy with either, they're both a big improvement on the current situation.] 08:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Option 2 would be more in keeping with Misplaced Pages policy. But what's this '''Ireland (country)'''? I thought "country" was ambiguous and '''Ireland (state)''' was preferred. -- ]·] 09:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::By the way, in any poll, I would like to see ALL options displayed, not just the front-runners. That way people could mark their first, second, third etc preferences, which is one way of evaluating a range of options. -- ]·] 09:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::: I disagree i think we should leave out the two options we know have alot of opposition to avoid dispute and focus on the two reasonable alternatives which are acceptable to all. Whilst country is ambiguous, i think saying Ireland {state} would confuse people because it would be like ]. Country is there for probably better but im ok with either. ] (]) 09:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::: For purposes of simplifying this process and resolving it, I believe the best way to approach the vote (assuming this is what involved editors want) would to present the above two options, and add "neither of the above" as a third, and use some type of preferential voting method (where you rank your choices). If, after the voting, the "Neither" option has a strong amount of support, we'll need to re-investigate other options. But, as I laid out, I don't believe that any option outside of the above two will gain strong support in a vote simply reading through the past work done on this. --] (]) 16:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	:'''Options 1''' ... but '''not''' ]. I needs to be ]. "Country" is too ambiguous particularly in relation to Ireland. The Ireland that composes of 26 counties is unambiguously a ] (indeed the only state currently existing called Ireland). But both "Irelands" (32 county and 26 county) can equally be described as countries, and both commonly are. Ireland/Ireland (country) is more ambiguous than what we have now (i.e. Ireland/Republic of Ireland).
	:As for a vote, ] is something that all people living on the island of Ireland are familiar with and would IMHO suffice for a voting method (i.e. preference voting like Evertype suggests). For those unfamiliar with it, it is a method that accurately calculates a winner from "preferences". (But since there is only one "winner" in this "constituency", it is more accurately described as an ] method.) --] (]) 11:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Please be aware that the opinions of Anon IP editors may be discounted/ignored in polls. Please log in if you wish your opinions to be heard should this be viewd/construed as a poll. --] (]) 11:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::If it comes down to a *vote* (again), that's only sensible. ... although ... if you think about it ... the more logical approach would be to discount the votes of logged-in users and only count the votes of IPs - since that is the surest way to prevent sock puppetry/double voting ;-) --] (]) 15:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::That ain't how it's done, though. ] (]) 15:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::When I rule the world, "GoodDay", or whoever you are, there will be no users names, we will all be numbers in the matrix. Until then, it is practical that IP **votes** (not !votes or discussion) should not be counted. --] (]) 15:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	:: It could be ]. That's the wording used in the top-of-page hatnotes at the moment. Or is that just too much name? ] (]) 11:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	::: Since the country is already going to have some disambig clause in the title and thus not likely to be an immediate search result without stopping through a hatnote or disambiguation page, and that we can redirect the "less accurate" versions to that, I could see this as an option. --] (]) 13:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Agree. No matter what we put in the brackets, no one is likely to search for "Ireland (...)" so the "user friendly" versions can redirect to the more accurate.
	::::(]/] is a little OTT, don't you think?). --] (]) 15:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	It should be '''Ireland(country)''', state has different meanings in different parts of the world. USA, Australia, Mexico, India, Brazil, Venezuela, Malaysia, Myanmar, Nigeria, Palau... Country does not have the same problem.] (]) 19:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Isn't option 1 basically the same idea that user Mooretwin proposed back in December that ultimately fell apart for some reason?] (]) 01:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
	Here we go again. For what its worth - The short bit - If the RoI article is not to be moved to "Ireland", I agree with the compromise proposal that:
	*the RoI article to "Ireland (state)";
	*the island article to "Ireland (island)"; and
	*"Ireland" be a DAB.
	For those who wish to read on:
	There are a bunch of states that have geographic names that do not fully correspond with their borders – Examples:
	*] – The state of that name does not include ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include the ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include lots of places in South Africa such as ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include ];
	....The names of all of the above states have Misplaced Pages articles that follow their usual names.Why is ] being singled out? Regards.] (]) 06:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Because in none of those cases is there an island and a state with exactly the same name? ] (]) 06:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
	:A far more comparable example would be ]. Northern Ireland, for example, doesn't include everything north of Athlone, as in your "South Africa" example. --] (]) 08:27, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
	:: The idea that Ireland is being singled out is pathetic and has been gone over before. As mentioned by the IP there is ] but also ] and ]. Now whilst i would accept a dab page like Georiga it makes sense to follow the method used at China and Taiwan where there is an article on the island / geographical location whilst making clear at the top of the articles there are separate articles on the sovereign states.
	:: We should follow the example of China / Taiwan, frankly this is what should of happened from the start. ] (]) 09:49, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::I agree with BritishWatcher - the examples at China and Taiwan are good examples of what can be adopted for Ireland (country/state/republic). --] (]) 14:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::I don't. If you follow the China example, you end up with an article that for all intents and purposes includes every government of Ireland (the island) up to and including the government of the big part of the partitioned island. Otherwise you get an article which includes government information for all periods of Ireland bit STOPS that kind of coverage at partition. Entirely unworkable -- and not, I think, comparable to the article about "Chinese civilization". An article about "Irish civilization" will have us dancing at the crossroads and I doubt anyone much wants to look at an article like that when they come here. '''Ireland (island)''' can handle geography and climate, and other "island" things. -- ]·] 18:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
	'''Below I recycle some China/Ireland type arguement: Regards ] (]) 21:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)'''
	:::In case any genuine non-POV users might get confused and consider ] some sort of acceptable example to follow:
	:::*PRC (Peoples Republic of China) is the ''official name'' of the most widely recognised China. The large majority of countries recognise the PRC as the only Chinese State;
	:::*ROC (Republic of China) is the ''official name'' of the much less recognised China - more commonly know as Taiwan (which is where the non-Communists established themselves after the Chinese Civil War and where the Communists have never ruled). A minority of countries, for example, the ] recognise only the ROC (Taiwan) as the Chinese State;
	:::That is broadly the reason for the way the ], the ] and the ] have the article names they do.
	:::In contrast:
	:::*RoI (]) is ''not the official name'' of the Irish State;
	:::*"Ireland" is the name by which the Irish State is recognised by every country in the world (including even UK of GB and NI!);
	:::In short, there is '''''no comparison between the Chinese and Irish article names!''''' Regards. ] (]) 22:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
	In addition, some one raised the '''Georgia''' example - This is the example I believe the Irish should follow. Georgia is the ''official name'' of the Georgian State - thats respected in the article name. The same should go for Ireland. I've always said "Ireland (state)" - similar to "Georgia (country)" is a fair compromise. Regards. ] (]) 21:26, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
	:I've said the same thing too, but that receives nothing but such bad faith that I decided to support my actual preference, since any time I say anything it gets gainsaid anyway. -- ]·] 21:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
	: Yes, and the discussion here has been about changing ROI to "Ireland (state)" or some similar "(...)". So what's the complaint? Regardless of whether China/Ireland make ideal comparisons, the general principle that 'nation' articles can be transjurisdictional (if ] were to remain located as is) is the point, I think. ] (]) 11:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Ireland should be a DAB - same logic as the DAB for ]. Its not complicated. Regards. ] (]) 00:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::: Except there's an easy choice between the two Georgias because they are entirely and utterly unrelated. It's not the same with Ireland where one could easily want both the state and all of the island at the same time and, frankly, one could also easily not *know* whether they want the state or all of the island of Ireland until they read quite a bit more about the subject than a DAB page offers. What is your objection to having all of the island of Ireland at ]? ] (]) 01:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	What is your objection to having the reader go through a DAB page to get to the island article? If they really want to know about the island they will make one click, if they want to know about the country they will make one click ] (]) 02:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	: Precisely what I just said: "It's not the same with Ireland where one could easily want both the state and all of the island at the same time and, frankly, one could also easily not *know* whether they want the state or all of the island of Ireland until they read quite a bit more about the subject than a DAB page offers." What does it mean to "want to know about the island"? Is that a purely geographical concern? Or does it concern that which crosses the border, culturally, historically, etc.? There is, I get the sense, some underlying disagreement about what the 'island' and 'country' pages should be that shapes some opinion on these issues. The current set up already serves a DAB function--the two uses of Ireland so dominate over all the others ('Kathy Ireland', etc.) that having it go direct to related content and having the hatnote to the state and an opening section that, again, gives clear indication and another link to the state serves a DAB function. ] (]) 13:46, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	Let's not regurgitate past arguments here - I'd like to make sure that the two options (] as DAB or ] as island) are likely the only significant and well-supported options available for us to consider should the next step be a poll to vote. We've gotten the merits of either side through the previous commentary phase here, and don't need to rehash it. (Note, I'm not asking for opinion one way or another, just making sure that no other major option hasn't been brought up as a likely possibility). --] (]) 14:03, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	: Agreed ] (]) 14:09, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::When is this vote likely to happen?] 14:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Once we've confirmed we've got the right options to be voting about. Hopefully that's sooner (like within a week) than later, but rather make sure we get this right the first time and take our time doing that. --] (]) 14:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::On what authority do you speak? ] (]) 15:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::: Masem is a moderator. ] (]) 15:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Has he been given authority to organise and conduct a poll? ] (]) 15:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::: He has the authority to help resolve this dispute and progress seems to be being made. Note Masem said "should the next step be a poll", i dont think its final that one will be held yet. ] (]) 15:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Polls haven't worked in the past because picking off individual disputes does not solve the whole issue universally, which is what is required. We need consensus agreement on all aspects of the dispute. ] (]) 15:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::So what would you consider to be all aspects of the dispute? --] (]) 15:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::See . The dispute is about more than the titles of articles: it is also about the name used to describe the 26-county state in other articles throughout the encyclpaedia. ] (]) 16:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Your statement got mass rejection so let's just concentrate on the what goes where and then we can concentrate on other things.] 16:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::As noted above, a comprehensive solution is required: not picking off one particular aspect of the dispute. The proposal gained unprecedented support on the IDTF - an initiative which attracted far greater interest than the paltry interest being shown in this. Polls on individual moves haven't worked in the past and are unlikely to work in the future. What is it about a comprehensive package that you are scared of? We will all gain something, but also have to concede something else. ] (]) 16:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::: Point 2 and 3 in your statement are important points that everyone should agree with no matter the outcome on what belongs at ]. If we rule out "republic of Ireland / Ireland" for the country article then point 1 of your statememnt will happen. That just leaves point 4 which is what a poll would be on If its a dab page or a page about Ireland (Geographyc, history / culture etc). ] (]) 16:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::Point 2 and 3, though, are not agreed by everyone, and I do not support point 1 unless point 2 is agreed. It is actually point 2 which has caused the most problems through edit-warring. Points 2 and 3 also need to be worked out in detail, and the question of "The politics of ..."-type articles needs to be worked out, too. All of this has to happen as one. ] (]) 17:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::: Hmm agreed, these matters do need to be addressed and agreed to. ] (]) 17:11, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	:(←) To make sure I'm clear on Mooretwin's concerns, it's not just the naming of the island/country/disambig page, but also:
	:* The naming of articles like "Geography of Ireland" or "History of Ireland" articles.
	:* How "Ireland" should be referred to in other articles.
	:Now, reading over everything, the most important factor of this entire case is the naming of the island/country. I think that once those points are settled, moving on to look at related article names and how it should be called will fall out naturally - I mean, there will probably be options, but the options will be within an established framework of the core article names, and the resolution of this case should be considered closed until those are decided. Yes, we could consider a number of complete solutions, but with each added factor, the number of possible solutions grows exponentially. I feel that the easiest route to reach the end of this is to deal with the issue that is 90% core of this case, and then propagate out from there instead of trying to do it in one fell swoop. --] (]) 17:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::I completely disagree. Changing the names of the current ] and ] articles will not in any way lead to other solutions "falling out naturally". How would it? Whatever the current state article is called, there will still be an issue as to how to describe it within the texts of other articles as the name "Ireland" will always remain ambiguous, and hence there will always be a need for disambiguation in articles where the meaning of Ireland is not necessarily clear. What, pray tell, is the problem with agreeing a comprehensive agreement? ] (]) 10:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::The naming of "other articles" and use of "Ireland"/"Republic of Ireland" in other places is long worked out and have been very stable for as long as anyone can remember. It is a non-issue. Overview of current practice is to always refer to the state as "Ireland" in article text (and to pipe link to ] as appropriate), unless there is a specific need to distinguish it from Northern Ireland (or to a lesser extent Ireland-the-island). When naming of articles to do with politics politics, we use the official title for offices, etc. where one exists (hence ], ], ]) otherwise use "Republic of Ireland" (hence ], ]). For topics where the modern states are no such a defining element, an all-island approach is taken (hence ], ], ]).
	:::The ] *had* specific guidance for naming of geographic locations (though I notice this is gone). The advice was to use for example, "<nowiki>], ]</nowiki>" today, but "], ]" before 1922. Whether it is in the MOS of not, this still common practice and his very stable. --] (]) 11:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::That is completely untrue. The naming of "other articles" and use of "Ireland"/"Republic of Ireland" in other places is NOT "long worked out" and has only been stable because editors have ceased edit-warring in the (so far mistaken) belief that an agreed solution was on its way. There was never any agreement and the "piping" solution at IMOS (now gone) applied only to geography articles, although it was used by Southern-Irish-centric editors on various articles to disguise the term "Republic of Ireland" (these attempts led to edit wars). There is no agreement as to when "there is a specific need to distinguish it from Northern Ireland (or to a lesser extent Ireland-the-island)". ] (]) 11:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::You clearly haven't edited a lot. There have been huge debates over the titles and many edit wars over use of ROI. Of course IMOS guidelines are gone. Things have changed - there is no guidelines, that is what is being sorted out here.] 11:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Can you give examples of these wars? I have been editing for far longer than either one of you (from what I can tell the the contribution histories attached to your accounts) and it seemed very stable to me. Use of "Ireland" in info boxes to refer to the state, I remember, used to cause consternation, but that was worked out. --] (]) 11:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I used to edit as an ip and lurk like yourself (before I saw the benefits of getting an account) so I am familiar with all the edit wars that went on. I'm not going to get diffs for you, but if you want to search for some that happened, looking at Mooretwin's block logs wouldn't be a bad place to start.] 11:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::The problem with trying to aim for a single-shot poll to determine a comprehensive solution is that we will be here forever trying to decide every possible permutation of those solutions and will dilute any reasonable poll or the like; that stated happening with the first set of moderators and appeared to be part of what caused them to leave. Have you ever heard of how the US Congress will add rider after riders to proposed bills, making them 100s of pages, and as such, a lot will stay in there with very few Congressmen reading the entire thing? That can happen if we don't break this into smaller issues. The reason I think things will fall out naturally if we start with the most critical decision (] as island or disamb) is because that will naturally limit the possible scenarios for any other affected articles or conventions; also, as noted above, there already seems to be a useful order to some of these affected articles, so I think those will be much faster to resolve once the core naming dispute is dealt with. --] (]) 13:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Your approach is flawed because, once a decision is made on ], there is no incentive for the "side" which wins that poll to compromise on anything else. If a majority votes one way in a poll on ], then they will vote to reinforce their "victory" on other issues. That is why a package is the only way to achieve compromise. If there is 51:49 support for one position, and separate polls are held on each issue, then the 51% win every time, despite being only a very narrow majority. If there is a package, then both the 51% and the 49% are forced to agree to a compromise.
	:::As for your suggestion that we will be here forever trying to decide every possible permutation of those solutions - not so, since the work was already begun by the IDTF. It was suggested there that a team be appointed to come up with guidance on when to use ROI and when to use Ireland in the texts of Ireland; and another to identify all the "Economics of ...", "Culture of ..." articles and come up with a solution for agreeing how to title them.
	:::You say agreement on "the most critical decision (] as island or disamb)" will naturally limit the possible scenarios for any other affected articles or conventions, but it won't. Regardless of that, it would still be possible to refer to the state in other articles by other names. ] (]) 20:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::: I understand the objections to package-solutions, but I'd also be wary of thinking that *anything* in regards to these subjects is going to fall out naturally. Actually at the moment, what puzzles me is where the ROI-supporters have gone. I doubt they've changed their minds. Conceded defeat? Or are they just absent from fatigue? Are we saying that a move of the state's page from ROI to something else is a done-deal?? This all just seems a little too easy at the moment? Not that I don't support such a move, but there's a strange silence in this section from anyone who disagrees with the moderator's statement above that DAB page or Ireland (country) or some similar (...) are the only workable solutions. Or did I miss something?? ] (]) 19:26, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I'd say they're bored, frustrated and disillusioned. Each attempt to find a solution gets less interest as people simply lose interest with each failure. IDTF had the most interest, followed by the recently-closed futile exercise (and waste of everyone's time). Even fewer are still interested now in this conversation among a tiny few editors. ] (]) 20:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Fatigue is a good guess (or boredom - or the simple fact that "they" don't have to participate here: ROI is the status quo). This page is still an obscure corner of the encyclopedia and no place to determine consensus. Why not take it to ]/] to get wider input if it it thought that something workable has come out of this. --] (]) 20:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I'd say once a definite process is in place everyone will be giving an opinion, because the last one fell apart a few have lost faith in this I guess. It's the job of the moderators to make sure everything is clearly defined in what is going to happen for all the interested editor's sakes.] 21:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	* "PRC (Peoples Republic of China) is the official name of the most widely recognised China." / "ROC (Republic of China) is the official name of the much less recognised China." ], ], ], ], etc. ... we've been over this. The number of articles on states that are located at the official name of that state is few and far between. The necessity to use the "Republic of ..." formulations to divide the state commonly called "China" from the wider concept of "China", is analogous with the Irish situation.
	* "'Ireland' is the name by which the Irish State is recognised" - and when people say "Ireland", they do not always mean the Irish state. There is a wider topic of "Ireland", which is a more extensive that topic than the Irish state 1939-present. When necessary to distinguish between the two, (as we do here). Indeed, even when talking about the "politics of Ireland", a person means the Irish state. And when talking about something like (or geography, or history, or people, ...), it would be ludicrous to assume a person means the narrow "Ireland": the Irish state 1937-present. Without doubt, it is the wider concept of "Ireland" a person means.
	* "...genuine non-POV users..." - way to demonstrate ]. --] (]) 15:38, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
	::* ], and ] are POV-pushers and should be ignored. The project would be much better off without them. ] is going around Misplaced Pages claiming that there are a group of editors trying to remove the term "British Isles" from Misplaced Pages. Such a load of bunkum, and a voice not worth listening to. I have asked him to name names, but the requeswt goes unanswered. Either 'put up', or 'shut up'!] ] 02:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::: wow Purple Arrow, you are the one that has changed a name of one article with no consensus to something so stupid and incorrect (]) the entire article is now having to be deleted because its pointless. You say we are imagining or making up the fact that some are seeking to remove British Isles from wikipedia? Rubbish, the facts speak for themselves. For a start people have been trying to change the article on ] claiming that certain other terms are "used more" which was an outright lie as the suggested names didnt even cover what British Isles is. We have the joke currently happening on ] where a sentence mentioning the British Isles has existed for two years but the POV pushers have arrived and seek its removal along with their appeasers who also have clear political motives too. We have ] where Snowded attempted to have the title changed.
	::::: Some people on[REDACTED] are on a campaign to remove British Isles from this site. Its pathetic and theres plenty of evidence to back up the fact this is happening. It really is troubling how dangerous this website is when a few people seek to rewrite history because of their political views. ] (]) 10:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::*You have just exposed yourself again for the pov-pushing that you do so well. Quite frankly your opinion will cease to be held in any esteem if you continue. There was agreement going back, not to add or remove 'Brutish isles' to or from any article, and Setanta747 did just this some months ago, without any consensus, and quite deliberately too. I undid Setanta747's pov motivated edits, and created a level playing field again on that particular article. The strange thing is that a certain clique were demanding a consensus to return the article to its former name, something that wasn't forthcoming. Almost every other day I see the term BI being questionably added to articles, and I hardly ever see the reverse. ] ] 12:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::: Ive not been POV pushing, im simply stating what has been happening on several articles in response to your claim that i am lying about some sort of campaign against the use of British Isles throughout wikipedia. You say there was some form of agreement (which i havnt seen) which said ] shouldnt be added or removed without consensus, if you have a link to that agreement it would be helpful but the very fact an agreement had to be made saying people should seek consensus to "remove" British isles suggests its been happening for some time.
	:::::::: In the case of Setanta changing the article to "Military... of the British Isles" i have always said on that talk page i see the reasons for wanting it there but accept changing it back to what it was before or something else or even deleting the article, but the current title is just wrong. As for only seeing it being added to articles and hardly the reverse, i just gave you a few examples in my previous post. No better example sums it up than whats happening at ]. British Isles was in the article for two years but now all of a sudden theres a massive campaign to try and remove it, even changing it to something thats incorrect is better for some people than British Isles remaining in the text. ] (]) 16:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::] is a POV-pusher and should be ignored. The project would be much better off without him. ] (]) 10:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::I think there is POV on both sides, probably unfair to say one side is worse than the other?--] (]) 05:34, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::I agree thats a bit unfair, there is most definitely POV on both sides. ] I think is generally quite fair in his comments (and his BI comment does have some grounds.) Mooretwin asks me above why I'm scared of his "comprehensive solution package". The answer is, and I'm being honest here, the fact that he has a history of being extremely disruptive whilst editing (8 separate 3RR blocks is a lot), which makes me wonder whether he is looking for certain things so that he feels it will justify him in further edit warring behaviour in the future.] 07:05, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I didn't ask why you were scared of MY package, but why you were scared of (any) comprehensive package. ] (]) 10:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::"Comprehensive packages" are have a very bad track record across WP. They involve a tiny number of editor coming up with a "solution" that fixes their own little problem but which throws thousands of other articles and editors in to acrimony.
	::::::Other people at other times have resolved their own issues to their satisfaction. "Comprehensive solutions" turn those resolutions upside-down. They are a bad idea. --] (]) 11:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I agree with you this. Things need to be solved one at a time in order that we get the best solutions.] 11:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::I had a terrific idea (months ago), it was a trade-off between the articles ] & ]. Here it is (was) 1) '''move''' ''British Isles'' to ''Britain and Ireland'', keep RoI as is. 2) '''move''' ''Republic of Ireland'' to ''Ireland (country)'', keep BI as is. -- ''Both sides'' in both discussion didn't like my plan (note, that both sides were in agreement, atleast). ] (]) 13:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::: lmao, that would never of been accepted and it wouldnt of resolved matters. If you rewrite article titles because a couple of people are on a campaign to remove certain words where would it end. Some of these people would support burning books with the term as well, i seem to recall that sort of thing happened in the build up to World War 2 because of appeasement too. ] (]) 10:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::: As GoodDay pointed out, NOBODY accepted his suggestion, so why the need here to compare editors to Nazis to make a point about it? The editors above trying to have other editors dismissed as POV-pushers isn't helpful either. I thought this sort of thing was supposed to stop in this process and is partly what got us here in the first place. ] (]) 10:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::: Trying to remove any mention of certain things from[REDACTED] sounds alot like burning books with content that people disagree with to me, The Nazis doing the same and also being appeased seemed like a good example. ] (]) 11:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Please '''stop''' personal attacks; what other editors have done in POV-ish manners in other naming conflicts is not a factor we are considering here. --] (]) 13:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	=== Arbitrary section break 1===
	:Looks like two additional points have come up in the above conversation. Before getting into the discussion, are there any other points that have been missed? --] (]) 16:24, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	** If the current ] article moves to a format of "Ireland (X)", should X be '''state''' or should it be '''country'''?
	** Should it be a package deal (a la Mooretwin-like suggestion) or one-point-at-a-time solution?
	:::If it were to be moved to "Ireland(country) I would have no problem with this. I do understand though that there may be a problem with this as Northern Ireland is also described as a country. I know that Ireland (Independent country) is far too clumsy, so are there other ideas out there that would keep Ireland (country) without confusing the differing meanings of the same word? ] (]) 16:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Ireland (country) would be confusing as many readers would assume that the country of Ireland encompasses the whole island. Ireland (state) or Ireland (Republic) are therefore preferable. ] (]) 16:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Apologies if it has already been mentioned. Would Ireland be a disambiguation page? ] (]) 16:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Only if we want to inconvenience WP users by sending them all to a disambiguation page instead of straight to the Ireland article. ] (]) 17:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::: Thats one of the easy choices people have to make, either Ireland is a disam page or its a page on the island like currently. Having the text on the island there makes more sense but im ok with either of those options. ] (]) 16:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::(edit conflict) If not ] then my preferences is for ], ] or ] in that order. Ireland (country) is far too ambiguous. It is the precisely because Ireland (the whole island) is a country, and is commonly - and rightly - described as such (e.g. ), that we are have the current problem. There is, however, only one state called ''Ireland''.
	:::I would encourage a "one-point-at-a-time solution". The issue is too expansive, involving to many articles, too many facets, and too many editor and nuances to impose a one-size-fits-all "package deal".
	:::To put it into perspective too, we are only talking about the title of articles here. The actual names of places and things are no in dispute. So there is no need for a "package deal". The names for use in articles etc. are irrefutable. So a "package deal" is unnecessary. --] (]) 17:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::*], is an interesting one, have not seen it before as proposal. It's infinitely less pov than the the present ROI, which is being used for disruption purposes by some. It also kills the lie that the name of the state is ROI, which "some" still agrue for. ] ] 17:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::It's nonsense to say that "the names for use in articles etc. are irrefutable". A reference to "Ireland" in an article will more-often-than-not be amibguous as it will not necessarily be clear whether it refers to the state or the island. Agreement on disambiguation is therefore necessary. This needs to be done as part of a package in order to achieve overall consensus, which is one of the key principles of the WP project. ] (]) 17:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::If there were a consensus for Ireland to be a disam page then the problem of confusing the reader in regards to Ireland (country) being the whole island would cease to exist. The disam page would give them the choice of Ireland (island) and Ireland (country). I may have got this all wrong and I'm sure somebody will let me know if I have, but doesn't this seem like a simple solution? ] (]) 17:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::A choice between Ireland (island) and Ireland (country) would appear rather odd, as many consider the two to be the same. The primary article has to be ] for the island as this is what most people understand Ireland to be. ] (]) 17:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::A disam page giving the reader a choice would immediately know they are not the one and the same. Even the option of having Ireland(state) along with Ireland(island) on the disam page would serve the reader better. If as you say most people understand Ireland to be the island (I don't have any figures on that) then would it not be better having a disam page where every single reader knows exactly what they are looking for? For me, it still seems to be the simple solution. ] (]) 17:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::It would still seem very odd. Why would your solution (inconveniencing all) be simpler than retaining ] as the primary article, which inconveniences only those seeking the post-1922 state article? ] (]) 20:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Mooretwin, your idea of inconvenience is different from mine. My flight being late when I have a connecting flight is inconvenient. Standing at a bus stop waiting for 45 minutes and then three come at once, that's inconvenient. Clicking my computer button, finding a disam page with all my options, then clicking again is not an inconvenience, especially when it could solve a problem that's been here since[REDACTED] first began. ] (]) 20:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::You're clearly not interested in providing a user-friendly encyclopaedia. For the sake of appeasing a minority of determined editors, you'd rather direct users to a disambiguation page than retain the primary topic at the Ireland page. ] (]) 20:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::(edit conflict) "If there were a consensus..." The "problem" is that there is not. Most people think that there is a ]: ]. And that a ] is the better way to go (rather than a ]).
	::::::::"The disam page would give them the choice of Ireland (island) and Ireland (country)." Between what and what? "The island" is at least just a commonly (if not more so) called a country than the state. The current ] article explains this more succinctly in the first paragraph so that any dab page could. --] (]) 17:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::Is the island just as commonly known as a country as the state is? As I said, I have no figures for that, so there's no point in me disagreeing with you. I also mention that Ireland (state) could be used alongside Ireland(island) on the disam page. What would be the objections to that? I don't see any good reason to disagree with it. ] (]) 18:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::Apart from the fact that you'd be inconveniencing thousands of Misplaced Pages users for no good reason other than to indulge the particular political views of a minority of editors? ] (]) 20:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::IMHO a primary topic exists (dealing with the people, history, culture, sport, geography, politics, etc. of ]). And that a disambiguation link is better in this circumstance than a disambiguation page (dividing a very wide topic from one that for all intents and purposes is a subtopic, rather than distinct topics).
	::::::::::There are more than one way to skin a cat. And there is more than ]. --] (]) 18:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::If you really believe that Ireland (state) can be considered a sub-topic, then I guess you won't be changing your mind any time soon. ] (]) 18:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Why do you think a less-than-100-year-old political entity it is not a sub-topic for a millennium-old cultural/geographic/political entity? ] (]) 20:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::And why do you think ], independent since 1991, is at the primary page when others such as ] is not? Why is the main page not at ] ] (]) 20:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::I should imagine because there has been no clear, commonly-understood entity called Macedonia continuously in existence as there has been with Ireland. Why do you think ] is at a primary page? ] (]) 21:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::You imagine, but you don't know. I was for a short time involved in the Macedonia discussion and it had nothing to do with a non continuous entity. The only reasons given for the change was that their official name was Macedonia and that some countries (not all) recognised them as such. Ring a bell? ] (]) 21:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::No it doesn't ring a bell. ] (]) 21:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Now, there is a good question brought up, in that what parenthetical name do we give to the country (and is this something for strong debate)? Choices I've seen:
	* ] - issue is that this potentially confusing with N. Ireland.
	* ]
	*
	* ] seems out since this is not an officially recognized name (as best I understand the situation), but is a reasonable redirection.
	Is this missing any other realistic options? --] (]) 18:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Very concerning that a Moderator appears already to be "taking sides" by ruling out the existing name of the article on the state. Should a Moderator not be a neutral facilitator? ] (]) 20:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::''Republic of Ireland'' is the state's official description as declared in the ]. I also find it concerning that the ''moderator'' would rule this out. ] 21:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:I think ] would be a nice article title.] 18:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Why not Ireland (Republic)? ] (]) 20:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Ireland (sovereign state)? ] (]) 18:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	I am confused here, how is an island a country? how would Ireland(country) be confused with Northern Ireland? --] (]) 18:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:I don't see it either. I don't share the point of view that there could be confusion.] 19:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::I have been told above that the island is more commonly known as a country than the actual sovereign state country called Ireland. Are there any figures to back this up? ] (]) 19:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::There is no confusion, I think people are just trying to cause problems. An editor above posts a link to some tourism site to back up the claim that the island is a country? Tourism is organized on all island level since the GFA. What international institute is the island recognized as a country? As far as Ireland (republic) it is not bad, but what is the point of changing it from Republic of Ireland to Ireland (republic)? Again Ireland (state) is not bad, but why would you just not go with the term Ireland (country) when it is already used at Georgia and the term country does not have any alternative meanings like state. --] (]) 19:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::It appears several editors appear to be confusing "country" with "state". The two are not the same. ] (]) 20:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::There are of course two meanings to the word country. We have country as in sovereign country and we have country as in Northern Ireland, a non sovereign country. ] (]) 19:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Yes but why should Ireland(country) be confusing if there is another country called Northern Ireland? Nobody is going to come here and type Ireland(country), they are either going to go to a DAB page or the island of Ireland article where it is going to list both Ireland & Northern Ireland with an explanation.--] (]) 19:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::It would be confusing because people would wonder why the country was considered only to include 26 of the 32 counties. I dare say many people in Northern Ireland, and elsewhere, would be offended at the suggestion.] (]) 20:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I would be happy with Ireland(country). I'm just playing ] in this to see what kind of disagreements there could be. I believe the argument that Ireland(island) is seen more (or as much) as a country than Ireland the sovereign state does not stand up, unless somebody can verify that statement. ] (]) 19:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:"It's nonsense to say that 'the names for use in articles etc. are irrefutable'." I mean that there should be no need for debate as to what is the name of the state/name of the island. The official and common name for the state is Ireland. If talking about EU member states, it's "Ireland" - no argument. Ambiguity only comes in a limited number of cases e.g. talking about a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland is needlessly confusing - common sense is to say the border is between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. ] (]) 20:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::That may well be common sense, but some editors have argued for "Ireland" in that example, and many more. There is a lobby to purge the term ROI from the encyclopaedia. ] (]) 20:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:"...this is not an officially recognized name..." - as a *name*, no. The *name* of the state is ''Ireland''. ''Republic of Ireland'' originates from the ] of the state as a republic (see the full, very short, legal act ). Changing the *name* of the state at that time would have required a referendum - one which the government was not guaranteed to win and which would have been VERY embarrassing to loose. So the *name* is ''Ireland''. ''Republic of Ireland'' is commonly used as a name (particularly to differentiate one "Ireland" from the other) but the official name of the state is ''Ireland''.
	:In most cases, people don't usually fret over the official names of states so much. No one, for examples, frets whether the such-and-such a state is "France" or the "French Republic" - or that the state variously called "UK" or the ''United Kingdom'' or, even, ''Britain'' is really the ''United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'' - but for whatever reason it is very important matter to some editors when it comes to Ireland.
	:"What international institute is the island recognized as a country?" No international body recognises Scotland as a country, yet commonly it is called one. No international body recognises England as a country, yet commonly it is called one. In the same way, ] is common called a country.
	:That is why you can buy guide books describing it as such (like I linked to above). Likewise, it is why you will find an Irish "national" teams are made up of sports people from both states on the island (for examples in ], ], ], in fact all with the notable exception of soccer ...). It is why, despite normally only representing states, ] come from both jurisdictions on the island. And why, for example, citizenship of the ] is given to people from any part of the island. It is why regardless of which side of the border one comes from, they are ].
	:This is of course all besides the fact that Ireland is divided politically between two states. --] (]) 20:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Refs please, other than the one provided above which also has Tibet listed as a country.--] (]) 20:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	I would like to see some good references that state Ireland (island) is considered a country. Perhaps something along the lines of on the ] article. ] (]) 20:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Ummm ... not wanting to be glib but might be a good place for you to start. Basically, any travel guide will call it a country. Any history book that deals not specifically devoted to the post-1922 state (even those post-1800 when it ceased to be an independent state and post-1922 when it was partitioned). Book on geography. Culture. Art. Ummm ... how may would you like? ''(adds: bearing in mind that I'm really not so inclined to come up with an outrageous number but just to convince you of something that really should be matter-of-fact)'' --] (]) 20:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Most travel, food, history, etc.. books are going to be about the entire island that does not imply that the island is a country. I am looking for a reference that clearly states that the island is a country. Show me some references like the ones you can find for Scotland, England, that explain while they do not meet the requirements to be an official country they are described as countries by the British government. I really also don't understand your logic, country and state can be used interchangeably, so how can you be against having Ireland(country) but not Ireland(state). Also why don't you go to the current article and on the island of Ireland and change the opening line to say it is a country.--] (]) 20:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Why the obsession with Ireland (country)? What's wrong with state, republic, Republic or the status quo of Republic of Ireland? ] (]) 20:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Why the obsession with state when it basically means the same thing as country? I live in a country where state has an alternative meaning. Just from USA, Australia, India there is over 1.5 billion people in the world where state has a different primary meaning and there is many other countries where state has a different primary meaning than a country. Why then would we use "state" instead of "country" when they both mean the same thing but "state" has different alternative primary meanings in different parts of the world. Is it not Misplaced Pages policy to use the term which the greatest number of readers easily recognize?--] (]) 21:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::I'm not obsessed with state: my preference is Republic of Ireland. State doesn't mean the same thing as country. Many countries are not states. England, for example, is not a state. The Basque Country is not a state. Nor is Kurdistan. Nor was Hungary prior to 1918/1867 (take your pick). I note your failure to answer my question. ] (]) 21:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Basque Country = a name of a region, Kurdistan is not a country it is autonomous part of Iraq, England is a self defined country.--] (]) 21:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:So the Basque ''Country'' is not a country? Interesting. And since when did the Kurds appoint you as the arbiter of whether or not their country is a country? ] (]) 21:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::{{ec}} "I am looking for a reference that clearly states that the island is a country." I know. How many do you want?
	::"Show me some references like the ones you can find for Scotland, England, that explain while they do not meet the requirements to be an official country they are described as countries by the British government." I doubt greatly that there will be any such references. Political sensetivities around Northern Ireland would preclude either government using such terms in relation to the island of Ireland. That should be obvious to you. What I mean is that there are countless refernces out there that call Ireland (the island) a country. (The Irish government does, however, usually refer to the state using the term "state" to distinguish what they mean from the alternative sense of "country" in Ireland.)
	::"...country and state can be used interchangeably, so how can you be against..." Not all states are countries. And not all countries are states. For example, Scotland is a country, but not a state. Florida is a state, but not a country. France is both a country and a state. "Ireland (country)" is ambiguous because it can refer to either the traditional country or the contemporary state. "Ireland (state)" on the other hand is entirely unambiguous. There is only one such thing in existence today that can be called both "Ireland" and "state". (Where as there are two things that can be called "Ireland" and "country" p.s. how may refs?)
	::"...why don't you go to the current article..." Because that would be confusing. Why don't you do a CTRL+F on that page and see how many times Ireland (not the state) is called a "country". My count is that the state is called "country" about 10 times (including infoboxes and hatnotes) and the island is called "country" a little more often.
	::"What's wrong with..." Status quo or "state", etc. is just fine for me, but others have issue with it. Hence ArbCom and this discussion page. --] (]) 21:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Well in my opinion it would seem like the use of the word country in the Ireland article when it is not referring to Republic of Ireland is wrong since it should be "island" instead of "country". You are wrong when it comes to the word state. State with a capital (S) and country can be used interchangeably. State with lower (s) is a division of a federal state. Your use of Scotland as an example is also wrong since Scotland defines itself as a country. Florida is not a country because it is state (lower s). Your example of France is correct just like Ireland (the country) is both a state and country since the term can be used interchangeably. If you can provide me some good references to back up your claim that the island is a country I will apologize.--] (]) 21:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::And where are all these little rules written down and agreed? ] (]) 21:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	"A State (note the capital "S") is a self-governing political entity. The term State can be used interchangeably with country."
	"A "state" (with a lower-case "s") is usually a division of a federal State (such as the states of the United States of America)."
	"political organization of society, or the body politic, or, more narrowly, the institutions of government. The state is a form of human association distinguished from other social groups by its purpose, the establishment of order and security; its methods, the laws and their enforcement; its territory, the area of jurisdiction or geographic boundaries; and finally by its sovereignty. The state consists, most broadly, of the agreement of the individuals on the means whereby disputes are settled in the form of laws. In such countries as the United States, Australia, Nigeria, Mexico, and Brazil, the term state (or a cognate) also refers to political units, not sovereign themselves, but subject to the authority of the larger state, or federal union.
	"The Montevideo Convention
	(a) a permanent population;
	(b) a defined territory;
	(c) government; and
	(d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states."
	The island only satisfies two of those requirements.--] (]) 22:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::The second and third sources make no mention before of your capital "S" rule, and the Republic of Ireland fits the definition of "state" under the latter two! ] (]) 22:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::The state itself even refers to itself as "the State" in its constitution. ] (]) 21:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Yes I am sure there is many countries in the world which refers to itself as "the State" in its constitution.--] (]) 21:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Ah, yes, indeed ... and the island is referred to as the "country" in the constitution. --] (]) 21:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Maybe because when the constitution was written they claimed the whole island?--] (]) 21:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:They did indeed make that claim :) However, the section that refers to the island as the "country" occurs in the preamble and relates to the desire to reunify the "country", rather than making a territorial claim over all of it: "We, the people of Éire, ...seeking ... the unity of our country restored ... Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution." (.) --] (]) 21:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Again the people who wrote that preamble did not even accept the partition of the country and claimed the entire island up until 1998. --] (]) 22:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::There you go, then. ] (]) 22:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Ummm ... the section refers to partition and their (or "our") desire to see the unity of the country restored. --] (]) 22:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Yes. Agreed. "Ireland (state)" is preferable. Its long been the compromise with the most support too. Regards. ] (]) 21:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Hey, if Ireland(state) has long been the compromise and is preferable, that's fine with me. I just like a good discussion. :) ] (]) 21:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Preferable to Ireland (country), but not to Republic of Ireland, Ireland (Republic) or Ireland (republic). ] (]) 21:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::''Ireland (state), Ireland (country), Ireland (republic)'', any of these are acceptable, IMHO. ] (]) 21:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:<s>"State with a capital (S) ... State with lower (s) ...." - what a load of old rubbish. I'd love to see you come up with a reference for that!</s>
	:"... Scotland defines itself as a country" - How? Where?
	:"If you can provide me some good references to back up your claim..." OK. From my lap here in front of me: "The second <u>state</u> of Ireland, occupying the greater part of the <u>country</u>, came into existence when the Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed on 6 December 1921..." (''Northern Ireland'', John Magee/Jack Magee)
	:I've asked you how many references it would take to satisfy you. You haven't answered. --] (]) 22:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	, the British government descibes Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, as countries. --] (]) 22:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Well, I take it back. I never saw such a definition before.
	:"British government descibes Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, as countries." Indeed. And the reference you link to above refute them flatly. Goes to show just how ambiguous these terms are, doesn't it? --] (]) 22:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Right, but to be honest if I am having this much trouble trying to get people to believe that a country and state can be used interchangeably, I don't think I want to get into an argument about whether NI,England,Scotland are officially countries.--] (]) 22:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:No-one denies that they ''can'' be used interchangeably. The issue is your attempt to impose a rule that they ''must'' be, despite numerous examples otherwise. ] (]) 22:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	I am not trying to impose anything, I just find it weird that people think I have some motive to have country instead of state when the opening line of the Republic of Ireland article says "Ireland is an island country in"? I live in America and did most of my high school and college here. Not knocking the education system here but I bet most of my friends would not think that state can also mean a independent country. That is where my opinion is coming from. --] (]) 22:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Sounds like a very US-centric view: "Hey, in the US a "state" is not an independent country, therefore that must be the case across the whole world." Not untypical, I guess. (That opening line, by the way, is ludicrous, as the ROI is not an island country.) ] (]) 22:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	No I never said that, I only said that from my experience the people I know would not think of a state as an independent nation. You can take that for whatever it is worth, here they seem to focus mainly on American history. It also is not only America where state can have an alternative meaning, if you include the English speaking countries of America, Australia, India, and Nigeria that is around 1.6 billion people.--] (]) 23:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Howabout, we go with '''Ireland (republic)'''. We can leave the other articles ] & ], as is. ] (]) 22:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::How about we leave things as they are until everything is agreed? ] (]) 22:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::I'd lay of on talk like that. The single largest group of our readers are American. If they don't understand what we mean, we may as well give up on this project now. It's not just for us. It's for our readers too, you know? --] (]) 22:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Who says they don't understand what Republic of Ireland means? Don't Americans know what a republic is? I should have thought they'd be more than familiar with the term. ] (]) 22:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::I mean the part where you write, "Sounds like a very US-centric view..." (I'm just dandy with the status quo, just so you know.) --] (]) 22:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:{ec} I hope none of them are doing political science at the University of Iowa: "'''state''' Combination of people, territory, and sovereign government." :) .
	:"...people think I have some motive..." I can't speak for anyone else but I didn't think that.
	:"...most of my friends would not think that state can also mean a independent country." That's fair enough and a good point to bear in mind. If many of our readers don't see "state" as meaning sovereign government then ] is a non-runner. --] (]) 22:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:: I dont have a huge problem with Ireland (state) or (country), or even (Republic). State i think will confuse some people, especially because in the case of georgia theres State / Country so it would probably be easier to put country, and its not just America which has states, theres Australia for example too. But id be happy with either. ] (]) 22:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::I'd be madly opposed to "country" - probably a very "Irish-centric" to counterpoint the "US-centric" view ... but calling the "state" the "country" (in the case of the two "Irelands") just plain wrong to me. --] (]) 22:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::"Wrong" depending on your POV, and consequently confusing and unnecessary (given that there are alternatives). ] (]) 22:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Of course depending on your POV. That's what I'm saying. To another POV, state sounds "wrong". We have to bear that in mind. --] (]) 22:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	Don't know what people think of "Ireland (sovereign country)", but that's what I threw out as a possibility way up the board here. It uses 'country,' but differentiates it from the all-Ireland context. Its also the phrasing currently (or at least last time I checked!) used on the Ireland hatnotes to lead to the ROI page.
	"Country" does seem to get a good deal of informal usage to mean the whole island. The example that I've heard that springs to mind is Irish TV or radio where the announcers will say things such as 'We'll take calls from across the country. In the Republic call XXXX and in Northern Ireland call XXXX..." That sort of thing. From a quick online search, here's a few of the first uses of 'country' that come up where the context indicated is all-island. Mostly tourism and some sports (rugby, in this case, where playing for the all-island team is decribed as playing for one's country) BTW, I'm not claiming any of these as 'official' or great Wiki references--just saying that in informal, 'every-day' use the concept of 'country' does appear to be provable as ambiguous on this issue: ; ; ;
	; ; ; ;
	] (]) 22:48, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	===Arbitrary section break 2===
	I'm concerned that the moderator, Masem, states "] seems out since this is not an officially recognized name (as best I understand the situation), but is a reasonable redirection." Technically correct, it's not the ''name'' of the state - but it '''is''' the state's own officially legislated for description. I would remind you that keeping the article on the state at ] is the preferred option of at least some Irish editors (me, BrownHairedGirl, Djegan, and others) and attempts to move it from that over many years have failed through lack of consensus. With all due respect, it should '''not''' be ruled out by moderator whim. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::You say that Masem states one of his reasons against using Republic of Ireland is ''since this is not an officially recognized name''. So what exactly are you saying Bastun? That "Republic of Ireland" *is* an officially recognized name? It's not. You know it's not. It's an official description. Masem is correct in every respect. A description is not a name. Deja Vu. We've done this. He's right. And as a desciption, it *can* and *should* be used whenever using a description makes things clearer - for example when disambiguation is required between Northern Ireland and the republic of Ireland (small 'r' since we only capitalize proper nouns). --] (]) 11:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::For all intents and purposes it is a name. It is used as a name. It is written as a name (note the capitals: Republic of Ireland). If it really were only a description it would simply be "republic" (as in "Ireland is a republic"). In any case, what is wrong with using the "official description" when the "official name" is an ambiguous misnomer? ] (]) 20:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::It's an irrelevancy whether it is the official name or not. This is an encyclopedia, not a court of law. We are editors, not lawyers. Nearly all articles on states in this encyclopedia are under titles that are not the official names of those state. In law, ''Republic of Ireland'' is not the name of the Irish state. In reality, is a name - just as ''France'' is a name for the ''French Republic'' and ''Netherlands" is a name for ''The Kingdom of the Netherlands''.
	::::: that use it as a name. on radio and television. It is a name. Not the official name. Not the name in law. But we are not lawyers and so that doesn't matter to us - just as it doesn't matter to us when it comes to the ] or the ]. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 11:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::(adds: "...we only capitalize proper nouns..." ''Republic of Ireland'' is using a capital R. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 11:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC))
	::::::I don't think it's right to draw comparisons with France (''French Republic''), Netherlands (''Kingdom of the Netherlands'') and Germany (''Federal Republic of Germany''). Unlike them, ''Ireland'' can refer to an island ''and'' a state. ] 20:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Absolutely. And that's the crux. See what I wrote down below. (Beginning with "What, by the way, is the merit behind...") --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 21:05, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Well, indeed, and hence all the more reason ''not'' to use the "official name". The point about France, etc., is that - even where there is no ambiguity - there is nothing to say that the "official name" must be used. ] (]) 20:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:I've already expressed my concerns about such an apparently partisan decision by a single moderator, who should be here to facilitate agreement: not arbitrarily dismiss one of the main options. ] (]) 22:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::The moderator is technically correct to acknowledge that ROI is not the name of the state, and therefore not the correct name. Logic! ] ] 23:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::There is no logic in saying that because it is not technically the name of the state, therefore it must be removed as an option for the name of the article. If such logic applied on Misplaced Pages, then many articles would have to be renamed. "Ireland (country)" is not the name of the state either, yet he is content for it to be an option. ] (]) 23:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Ireland (country), is technically correct name, because the "country" bit is in brackets as a qualifier. ] ] 01:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Republic of Ireland is technically correct name, because the "Republic of" bit precedes it as a qualifier. ] (]) 20:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::I agree with Mooretwin. Not only is it correct, but it's used as the ''official'' description. ] 20:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::It could be that the moderator thought the argument for Republic of Ireland was either weak or not as popular some think. ] (]) 23:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::And on what basis has he made such a judgement, and where has his reasoning been articulated. His role should be to facilitate, not judge. ] (]) 23:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I believe they used the statements to see which had the most consensus--] (]) 23:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Yes, that's my impression - RoI, based on the input from before, does not seem to have any strong support in any possible naming scheme over the options of ] or ], due to the facts provided by users that it is not an officially recognized name of the country and only something established within the last century. This is to help simplify any progress going forward, to dismiss the options that are least likely going to have any consensus. --] (]) 23:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Only established within the last century? The state was only established in the last century! ] (]) 23:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Exactly! ]<sup>]</sup> 23:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::If Republic of Ireland is so unpopular, how come it has remained as the name of the article for years, despite attempts to change it to Ireland? ] (]) 23:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Because of the amount of illinformed morons that can troll[REDACTED] from time to time! Scrap the fake "Republic of Ireland" name now.--] (]) 23:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::If only we'd had that insightful contribution earlier, the dispute could have been solved so much sooner. ] (]) 23:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::Don't feed the ]... ]<sup>]</sup> 23:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::I'm not sure if the above users were being serious, but as has been pointed out numerous times, ''Republic of Ireland'' is neither "fake" nor "unofficial". ] 20:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Perhaps because many editors were refusing to budge from their entrenched positions. It seems to me there is now an air of compromise, which can only be a good thing considering this argument has been continuous here since[REDACTED] began. ] (]) 23:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::There's been a compromise on the table since the IDTF. ] (]) 23:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::Well, this is now, so shouldn't we concentrate on what can be achieved here? Also, we shouldn't be criticising the moderator too quickly. Let him explain his reasoning himself. OOps, I believe he has gone some way to explaining it above. ] (]) 00:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC) ] (]) 00:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Why re-invent the wheel? ] (]) 00:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I may be getting you wrong here, Mooretwin, but it appears to me from your words that you don't think this collaboration project should continue, or perhaps not have even started. Am I reading you right? ] (]) 00:28, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::Why should these decisions be made by half a dozen editors and a moderator (who appears partisan), when the IDTF attracted significant input from many editors? ] (]) 20:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:"...based on the input from before, does not seem to have any strong support in any possible naming scheme over the options..." It is the status quo. Leaving things as they have been for the best part of a decade is always an option. We are signed up to a process of discussion. We are not signed up to a process whereby the current set-up *has* to be changed. (And moderators, by the way, are signed up to ] whereby they may *not* make content decisions.)
	:What, by the way, is the merit behind arguing that an article on any state *has to* be located at the official name of that state? Nearly all states are located at an article title that is *not* the official name (], ], ], ...). What is so different about the Irish state that is *has* to be located at it's official name?
	:In the case of the French Republic, commonly called France, there is no other topic that might reasonably compete with it for the article name "France". (Unlike, for example, in the case of the ], commonly called ].) In the case of the Irish state, there is another topic called Ireland that does compete with it. It has long been the opinion of the majority of editors that that other topic is the primary topic and that disambiguation links are the way to go to disambiguate the two (like ]). What's more - lo! joy! - the state is commonly called by another name: "Republic of Ireland" (like ]). And yes, yes, ] and so need not worry ourselves that this is not the name of the state in law. --] (]) 08:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	::If we are going to give examples of disambiguation and article names we should look at them all. Have a look at ], an article that used to be at ] and is the primary page. There are several Macedonia's including ] and of course ]. The reason given for the change in article name was that their official name was Macedonia and that many countries, amongst them the US, recognise them as such. Actually, the UN do not recognise them by this name as there is an ongoing dispute between Greece and Macedonia over the name. The UN for the moment only refer to them as Former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia. Now, by this reckoning we would have Ireland and Ireland (island) with Ireland being the primary page. I certainly don't propose this, I would prefer a disam page with Ireland (country) or state and Ireland (island). My point is, if we are going to cite precedents on article names then we should cite them all. ] (]) 14:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::More ]. As that page explains, the ] is known as the "Yugoslav Republic ..." in the UN because that was it's provional name at the time it joined in 1993. Officially, the state is named "Republic of Macedonia" (contrary to what you seem to belive).
	:::The state officially known as ] is known to the UN as ]. This is because in 1972 it was accepted into the United Nations, replacing the old "China" (the ]).
	:::Regardless of what the UN designation of the state is, or what the of official name of the state is, we here on this encyclopedia have a very different set of requirements when determining what an article should be titled.
	:::Here's a table for you:
	:::{| class="wikitable" border="1"
	|-
	! UN designation
	! Official name
	! Misplaced Pages article
	|-
	| Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
	| Republic of Macedonia
	| ]
	|-
	| China
	| People's Republic of China
	| ]
	|-
	| Ireland
	| Ireland
	| ]
	|-
	| United States of America
	| United States of America
	| ]
	|-
	| France
	| French Republic
	| ]
	|}
	:::As you see there is no relationship between the UN designation a state, it's official name and the title of it's article here on Misplaced Pages. The Ireland/Republic of Ireland example is no different to any other state from that perspective.
	:::Formerly the ] article was a dab page. The move debate changed it so that the state became the main Macedonia article and the other Macedonia's were linked to via dab links. A reason for doing so was because the state article got much more traffic than the other "Macedonia" articles (the opposite is the case in example of the two "Irelands"). Hence it was argued that it was the ]. See the stats here:
	:::* {{stats.grok.se|Macedonia}}
	:::* to ] last month.
	:::The primary topic with dab links is what we have at ] at the moment, what they have at ] and, now, is what they have at ] too. UN designations or official names don't matter a fig in either example. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 14:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	=== Ireland ≠ Eire ≠ Northern Ireland ===
	I am fully aware that most on the isle of Ireland see "the rest of Ireland" to mean Northern Ireland, if speaking geographically for the whole island and I don't mean that Dublin necessarily claims the part administered by Belfast, although some editors here would like this to happen (I myself AM one of them). It is local perspective and those who have a problem with "British", should really look more at the selfish appropriation of "Irish" by those living in the part of Ireland controlled by Dublin, even as travel brochures make less distinction of it. Those I address feel that those in the North are wrong for using "Irish" for themselves (being that they are considered "Scots in exile"), although Northerners and affiliated islanders never claim exclusive use; truthfully, only the church primate in the Province of Armagh has precedence throughout Ireland, despite Dublin's secular precedence. "Irishness" is the real issue, but it is occasioned by the fact that the name for the UK is GB & NI, while Eire claims to be Irish ''in general terms''. ] (]) 09:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	Here is some recycling from above:
	"Is ] (a city of about 3m) in ]? Yes - but not '']''! Is ] in ]? Yes - but not '']''!. Is ] in ]? Yes but not '']''. Is ] in the ] - Yes but not in the '']''! Now lets put the question again - Is Lough Neagh in ]? - Yes but not in '']'' - Why should places in ] be treated any differently to those in ], ] or ]? A bunch of countries have geographic sounding names that do not correspond fully with their borders. Ireland is no exception and should be treated no differently to the others.". Regards. ] (]) 20:54, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Instead of a geographical feature like ], why not compare like with like and choose a town/city as a comparison. Say, ], ]? doesn't quite work then, does it? ] (]) 21:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:{{ec}} I don't know what the people of Belgium, Luxemburg or Samoa do in such situations. But we, in Ireland, (as you know) have a multitude of ways around it. (As I'm sure the Belgians, Luxemburgers and Samoans have similarly.)
	:Is Lough Neagh in Ireland? Absolutely. But it is not in the Republic. It is not in the 26 counties. It is not in the South. It is in Ireland but it is not in the Republic of Ireland.
	:You would only say that it is in Ireland not in Ireland, if you were being particularly obtuse, pedantic or had some inane point to prove. Unquestionably, you would sound stupid. People would look at each other while you were speaking and make secret gestures between themselves about you.
	:Here on Misplaced Pages, we use common sense - like people do in real life and in other publications - and say that Lough Neagh is in Ireland but it is not in the Republic of Ireland. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 21:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	::I couldn't agree more. ] 21:28, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::I would happily pick ] instead of ]. The logic is the same with a city as with a lake. Here goes: Now lets put the question again - Is ] in ]? - Yes but not in '']''. I'm curious - Could you put in a simple sentence what it is you two agreed on? I couldn't make out what you agreed on. Regards. ] (]) 05:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Because there would never be a requirement to use a construct such as ], ] in WP until the the island and the state are the same thing. It's a made-up usage, solely for the purpose of having a row, IMHO. ] (]) 06:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
	Or maybe Ireland *is* an execption to those examples and you just don't know it. It is perfectly possible that 'all-Ireland'-ness (ok, I know that's not a word!) is simply far more concrete and used than the wider examples that you've presented. Or it could be that the particular people editing those pages are simply more state-oriented and things could be different with a different set of editors. I'm not saying it would be, just that your suggestion that Ireland must be like those articles--as if things such as this at Wiki *must* be one way or another--is questionable. ] (]) 11:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
	:'''I agree entirely with ].''' Ireland is completely analogous to ], ], ], and ]. This is why we should have '''Ireland''' = the state, '''Ireland (island)''' = the island and '''Ireland (disambiguation)'''. The precedent of other Misplaced Pages articles is not to be brushed aside. '''And moderators...''' if you have a poll, I want to see this configuration there alongside the two "front-runner" choices that ] described. It may fail in the poll, but the fact that it is an option which is exploited for other '''completely analogous''' sets of articles in the Misplaced Pages. (That is my formal request, such as it is, as the person who filed the RfA in the first place, if that makes any difference.) Thank you. -- ]·] 06:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::What is "completely analogous" about them? Let's look at the the Luxembourg example since it is geographically the closest.
	::* If we talked about a sports team from Luxembourg, it would represent the state. In Ireland the opposite is the case, it would represent the island (e.g. e.g. ], ], ], ] ... even the ] despite it being strictly against the rules).
	::* If we talked about a religious organisation in Luxembourg, its jurisdiction would be the same as that be that of the state. Not so in Ireland, where the jurisdictions of religious organisations are same as that of the island (e.g. ], ], ]).
	::* When we talk about Luxembourgers, we mean people from the Luxemburg state. Not in so in Ireland, where (even in the state's own constitution) an Irishman or woman means someone from the island of Ireland, not the state (e.g. ], ]).
	::This is why (contrary to what RedKing7 would have us believe) if a person asked you if Arlon was in Luxemburg, you would answer no, it is in Belgium in a province called Luxembourg, which used to be a part of the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg. Whereas if someone asked you if Newry was in Ireland, you would answer yes, in Northern Ireland, which is separate from the Republic of Ireland.
	::But, you say differently. You might explain why. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 08:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::If someone asked me if Arlon was in Luxemburg I would say yes, the Belgian province of Luxemburg. Why would I say no? ] (]) 08:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::You would qualify what you meant by "Luxemburg" since it is not the Luxemburg that someone might assume. Would you say no if someone asked you if Newry was in Ireland? What about the other points re: sporting teams, etc. form Luxemburg vs. sporting teams from Ireland. Do you think that two Luxembourgs and Irelands are analogous? --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 08:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I wouldn't say no. I would though, as you have done, give it the same qualifier. I think your sporting question is a bit of a red herring as we all know that not all sports teams follow political boundaries, such as Europe in the Ryder cup and the British Isles in rugby union. As for your question, do I think the two Luxembourgs and Ireland are analogous? On the surface they do seem to be, but then I haven't really looked that closely at it. ] (]) 09:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::There is quite a difference in the qualifier though. Once says "this Luxemburg" the other says "not that Ireland". They are opposite in their semantics.
	::::::Not all sporting associations follow political boundaries but it is normal for *national* teams to do so. With the sole exception of soccer, Irish national sporting associations correspond to the island, not the political boundary. That is unusual and not analogous to the Luxembourg example.
	::::::The reason the sporting/etc. questions are important (and not at all a red herring) is to determine the primary topic (and I know you are not in favour of that way of disambiguating). If sporting organisations, religious organisations, cultural organisations, etc. mean one Ireland and not the other when they say "Ireland" then that Ireland is the primary topic. (In the same we we can hear the primary topic when Arlon is qulified by saying, "I mean this Luxemburg" whereas Newry is qualified by saying, "I don't mean that Ireland".) --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 09:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::: I don't think sport is at all a red herring, although it is important that this not be made to seem as if it is all about sport; it isn't--the use of Ireland to mean something beyond the state goes well beyond sporting. The Ryder Cup example isn't fully analogous. For one thing, it's a once every two year event -- in other words, it's an exception, a 'special event.' For another thing, as well as being members of the European tour, pressumably all the players playing for Europe are members of their individual country's golfing associations (and probably have been back into their youth). In the case of both the ROI and NI players, they are all members of a single Irish golfing union, and pressumably have played together as 'Irish golfers' since they were junior players. ] (]) 21:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	== Ireland vs. Republic of Ireland in articles ==
	I have replied to a post by ] on the ] about use of Ireland/Republic of Ireland in articles. He/she made what I think were fairly common sense proposals and my reply was really just re-wording simpifing of them.
	My rewriting of Blue-Haired Lawyer's proposal is here:
	<small>
	::In general the state should be referred to as ''Ireland''. There are situations however when, for clarity and/or disambiguation, distinctions will need to be made a) between Ireland-the-state and Ireland-the-island and b) to avoid confusion with regard to Northern Ireland. In these situation the preferred means to do so is to call the island ''Ireland'' and the state ''the Republic of Ireland'' (this can be emphasised where necessary by use the phrase ''island of Ireland'').
	::While the final decision to use one set of terms or the other should be determined by the unique contexts of each situation, the following rules of thumb will generally hold true:
	::* In lists of sovereign states, when discussing economies, governments or other qualities of states, the state should be referred to as ''Ireland'' e.g. ], ]
	::* When describing the area served by an organisation that is primarily all-island, use the phrase ''island of Ireland'' in the first instance and either ''Ireland'' or ''island of Ireland'' thereafter e.g. ]
	::* Always use the official titles of state offices (e.g. the President of Ireland, never the President of the Republic of Ireland)
	::* When writing about the state and Northern Ireland in the same context, use ''the Republic of Ireland'' (or ''the Republic'' thereafter) e.g. the border should be described as being between "the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland" never as being between "Ireland and Northern Ireland".
	::* For articles where historical correctness is important (e.g. ]) the state should be called the ''Irish Free State'' for the period between 6 December 1922 to 29 December 1937. In the same kind of articles, for the period thereafter until the coming into force of the Republic of Ireland Act (18 April 1949), the state not be referred to as the ''Republic of Ireland'' (another means to distinguish Ireland-the-state from Ireland-the-island should be used as necessary).
	</small>
	Since there was no reply to Blue-Haired Lawyer's proposal, I've copied mine here to get some feedback. Obviously, more input than what is available here would be required to put these into the IMOS but since the contributors here represent a spectrum of opinion, I though it would be a good place get feedback. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 09:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:I think thats pretty fair in that ROI really does only need to be used when Northern Ireland is directly mentioned alongside it. There is one small thing I disagree on though. ''e.g. the border should be described as being between "the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland"''. In my opinion it should be described in general as "the border between the United Kingdom and Ireland" as that conforms to a more international NPOV. Everything else is fine though.] 09:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Yes, that's probably a bad example for Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 09:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::: I agree with everything said above. ] (]) 19:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I agree with the proposal too, but (to User:MITH) "Republic of Ireland" should also be used when the island is mentioned, not only when Northern Ireland is mentioned. ] 19:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Well if both the island and the state are mentioned then two things can be done. If it's a political sentence then ] should be the disambiguator and correct name of the sovereign state be used. If it the context is geography then ROI can be used.] 20:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::: is a good example of where ROI is needed. The opening sentence is ambiguous at present with the link to ] disguised by piping. ] (]) 23:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::I agree. ] 23:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::I disagree, the article is perfectly clear.] 23:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::It's not "perfectly clear": it refers to Ireland, but links to Republic of Ireland. ] (]) 23:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::''"it refers to Ireland, but links to Republic of Ireland"'' Hmm. Strange that. Especially as somehow ] seem to do the exact same thing?] 23:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::What point are you trying to make? If the article in question said Republic of Ireland, the meaning would be clear. Currently the meaning is ambiguous, and the link to Republic of Ireland is unhelpfully disguised. ] (]) 23:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::The introduction mentions all three entities (ROI, NI, and the island), therefore ''Republic of Ireland'' should be used. Readers shouldn't keep having to click on links to find out what entity is being referred to. ] 23:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::Quite right. I've made the edit. ] (]) 23:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::That is an excellent rule of thumb: if the reader needs to click the link (or hover over it) to know which "Ireland" is being referred to then we need to use alternative wording. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 09:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Yes, the article on the state currently has a good wording to that effect. It reads something like, "Ireland is a state in northwest Europe. It covers five sixths of the island of Ireland." Reads very well, is succinct and clear. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 21:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::This is a good proposal. I agree with it too. --] (]) 19:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Me too. I guess we are not going to discuss where those instances are piped to? ] (]) 20:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Consideration should be given to ''republic of Ireland'', that is ''republic'' all in lowercase font. I'm not happy with uppercase, as it adds confusion. Readers are pretty smart, and can work that out. ] (]) 21:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::I'd be of the opinion that we should use ''Ireland'' where possible. In the event that we can't then there is little to be gained from using ''republic of Ireland'' over the well-established ''Republic of Ireland'', except to avoid using a capital that we might not like. That seems to part a little from NPOV IMHO. Whatever our opinion about ''Republic of Ireland'', it exists and it is used. Avoiding it like that seems a bit "sneaky". --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 21:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::Nothing 'sneaky' about using ''republic of Ireland''. What's sneaky about it? The name of the state is Ireland, and I took a compromise position on my input here. My first option is Ireland. ] (]) 22:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::''Republic'' should always be capitalised when writing ''Republic of Ireland''. That is the state's official description as declared in the Republic of Ireland Act. ] 22:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Yeah, your quite right, ''Republic of Ireland'' is the states official description, but not the name. Don't agree it should always be capatalised, as it would depend on context. In the meaning of the 1949 Act, I agree, it should be capatalised. ] ] 22:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	:Just as a comment from your friendly moderator, I believe that this sets a good standard for how to reference the island, ROI, and No. Ireland within the body of articles, and should be part of the final result from this project. We still need to come back and address the names of the various articles that conflict at "Ireland", and potential effects on other article names, but this helps towards the complete solution. --] (]) 23:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
	::If we can now formalize the establishment of a consensus for this approach, it would be a huge step forward. Or am I missing something? If not, could we poll the participants? --] (]) 10:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	I have created a to show the difference between the current ] and the proposed change. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 10:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:The example that the border should be described as being between "the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland" never as being between "Ireland and Northern Ireland" was weak and controversial. I propose it should be changed to something like an increased number of shoppers to Newry should be described as coming from ''the Republic of Ireland'', not ''Ireland'', when referring to the state. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 10:51, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Much of this confusion is just a myth, and the danger is more confusion. The border is generally known as the ]. Why choose neologisms, especially invented for WP. "Republic of Ireland" should be totally avoided for naming purposes. There is little excuse for not being able to rework wording to avoid that term. A much better option would be to rename the island to "island of Ireland", and work around that. I seriously think that Irish editors might be in danger of being overgenerous in what is conceded here to a 'particular' pov element, who resent the state using the name Ireland. ] ] 11:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Yep that border bit is wrong. It was admitted that the example was a bad one. Another example should be given for the ROI/NI case as the border should actually be referred to as the United Kingdom - Ireland border.] 11:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::I don't think that the motives of many (if any) contributors here is any kind of resentment towards the name of the state.
	:::BTW What neologisms have appeared during in this issue? What ones have been invented for Misplaced Pages? --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 11:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Here's one ], ] being used for the name of Ireland is another. ''"I don't think that the motives of many (if any) contributors here is any kind of resentment towards the name of the state."'', this has actually been 'said' by some of the editors involved in these discussions. ] ] 11:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Neither "Republic of Ireland" nor "United Kingdom" nor "border" are neologisms. Much less made up for Misplaced Pages. See .
	:::::What have contributors said? That they "resent" the state using the name "Ireland"? --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 12:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I think what you are looking for. RoI for name of Ireland is neologism in my book, Roi refers to a description of Ireland as a 'republic', as opposed to a 'monarchy'. It's akin naming UK as ], instead of ]. ] ] 12:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::And gets the hits. ] ] 13:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::"I think what you are looking for." It is identical to - and in both case the match is for "Republic of <u>Ireland - United Kingdom border</u>".
	:::::::There is only one return for ". It is and index entry for "monarchy, of United Kingdom".
	:::::::"Irish border" is the common name. I don't know why the article isn't located there. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 13:21, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Agreed, the article should be renamed "Irish border". There shouldn't be any confusion since it's the only (international) border in Ireland. ] 16:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	::'''When referring to the population of "Ireland" but in meaning the republic, it is always 100% correct to say republic but never 100% correct to say that the republics population count is that of Ireland, in the choice between 100% or less accuracy 100% should always be taken, no?''' Saying that the state in the south will have the full title (Ireland) in all counts is not always right. If there were no acceptable term of distinction it would be a dilemma but there ''is''... Republic of Ireland, official ''description'' of the state <ref>]</ref> People may be of the opinion that Ireland "should be used as much as possible" but such as the case that "population of ] is 3.5 million" and "population of ] is 5 million", one should do anything possible to clarify, yes? It is not so much the case to decide which is more important, politically correct or most often used. It is the case to decide when and how to make the distinction between these two different entities. Maintaining only one requires the disposal or obscurity of the other. When describing geographical ''location'', the terms are ambiguous, either can be used. When describing population, infastructure and politics, Ireland can only be 100% correct in reference to the whole island. Use of the term Republic of Ireland ''can be'' correct 100% of the time. ~ ].].] 17:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	Is there agreement on the proposal to alter IMOS as mentioned above? If not, why not? If this is the thing stopping us from moving forward then we need to be clear whether there are any issues. As I read it, there aren't many, bar sorting out how it applies to one or two one off circumstances such as Cork below.] 19:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Under whose authority is consensus being sought? Have users been notified? When were we asked to agree or otherwise? Who is entitled to make this decision? What process is in place? ] (]) 21:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	(entering comment chronologically) I '''support''' rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid's rewrite of Blue-Haired Lawyer's proposal, as stated at the beginning of the section.--] (]) 22:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Two further points are needed to say that
	* where titles of potentially-ambiguous articles such as "Flag of Ireland" used "Ireland" rather than "Republic of Ireland", the lede needs to explain that the (in this case) flag is the flag of the Republic of Ireland, and not that of Ireland (the island).
	* where there is any risk of ambiguity, or of readers being misled, Republic of Ireland should be used, e.g. "RTE One is the oldest television station in Ireland" (which is quite untrue). ] (]) 09:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Republic of Ireland is unreal ==
	The most reccurent theme and arguement is firmly on the term Republic. <br>
	This kind of talk about the Republic of Ireland term > "...should always be avoided", "...is not official", etc. and then debating it, describing references etc. There is more talk page material on that than in any article. That debate could be compressed to 10% everytime by enshrining some facts about the names, North, Republic and island. Then in any debate about where the term Republic came from or how and if it is official to the state, it is right there on the project page, debate is halved, productivity is doubled. Even if the term Republic is voted in as ridiculous to use for the state, it ''has been'' used and ''has been'' official. Nothing as a fact has been more debated. The members of this project have a sort of duty to point out that, the term Republic of Ireland was created by the Irish government, is an official Irish term for the state, and not an unusual name at all. <br>
	If you were on WikiProject Green and received a new person every week that says ''"Blue is not a ''real'' part of green"'' should have a clear sign that ''"Blue is real even if everybody likes yellow."''<br>
	There should be a clear annoucement about the nature of that term, even warnings about getting the wrong idea, because it is so often confusing, so much more so than any other well known term. ~ ].].] 17:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
	'''Here's some more relevant recycling (this time from the ] article):'''
	The distinction between a ''description'' and a ''name'' has sometimes caused confusion. The ], ] who introduced the legislation explained the difference in the following way:<ref> Seanad Éireann - Volume 36 - 15 December, 1948, The Republic of Ireland Bill, 1948—Committee and Final Stages.</ref>
	{{quotation|"If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of ], I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know... name in Irish is Éire and in the English language, Ireland. Its description in the English language is "the Republic of Ireland."}}
	-- '''] (]) 19:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)'''
	:Except Mr Costello's analogy didn't work. The correct analogy would either be:
	{{quotation|"If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of '''John Costello, Senior Counsel''', I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know... name in Irish is Éire and in the English language, Ireland. Its description in the English language is "the Republic of Ireland."}}
	or
	{{quotation|"If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of ], I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know... name in Irish is Éire and in the English language, Ireland. Its description in the English language is "'''republic'''."}}
	] (]) 08:31, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::I think Costello's analogy worked just fine. Regards. ] (]) 16:18, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::It doesn't work at all, for the reason given above. ] (]) 22:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
	The description of the ] is ], but we don't do ] here. No, we don't do that here for UK. ] ] 16:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	::If the description of the UK is "constitional monarchy", then the description of the 26-county state is "republic". ] (]) 22:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
	:That's because ''United Kingdom'' can mean only one thing, while ''Ireland'' can mean more than one thing. ] 17:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	::Well ... no. The "United Kingdom" could refer to the ], or the ], or the current meaning which is the ]. --] (]) 17:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::I meant in the ''present day''. Currently there's only one entity called the ''United Kingdom''. ] 17:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	:What makes you think that ] is the description? Have you got a citation for that? Personally I would have thought that ] is the descriptive part of ]. For me 'United Kingdom of ' and 'Republic of ' are pretty much the same type of thing. But I'm willing to be proved wrong. ] (]) 18:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	::"Republic" refers to the system of representation in Ireland. The UK has a "Constitutional Monarchy" system, as opposed to a republican system. I really should have written ]. ] ] 19:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Doesn't 'monarchy' equal 'kingdom'? Or am I missing something? ] (]) 19:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::"Constitutional Monarchy" would not be the same as Kingdom, although a Kingdom could be just that, as in the case of the UK. A Kingdom could be anything from a democracy to a dictatorship. But it would not be a Republic. ] ] 19:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Tfz, you can read WP's article about the ]. Otherwise, I think what you mean is the ''Kingdom of the United Kingdom'' (monarchy/republic are forms of government, kingdom/republic are forms of states). ''Kingdom of the United Kingdom'' is, of course, a tautology (since it's plainly obvious from its name that the United Kingdom is a kingdom). Whereas ''Republic of Ireland'' (like ''Republic of South Africa'' or ''Kingdom of the Netherlands'') is not a tautology. Ireland has in the past been a kingdom. The Netherlands has in the past been a republic.
	:::What all of this has to do with anything, I don't know. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 19:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	==Second largest city in Ireland?==
	Both of the following statements could be argued against, at least as being unclear and potentially misleading:
	*] is the second largest city in ]
	*] is the second largest city in ]
	It is simple enough to clarify the former by restating it as
	*] is the second largest city in the ]
	How should the latter be clarified? --] (]) 01:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	: Is it in the island of Ireland or "of / on" it? "in the island of Ireland" doesnt sound right to me for some reason. ] (]) 08:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	::One of the most difficult issues is that of context. Quoting a single sentence like this doesn't give the context of the article. For example, if the article is discussing the state, or some aspect of the state, then saying that Cork is the 2nd largest city in Ireland is fine. If the article is discussing aspects of the entire island, then the first sentence is fine. If the context isn't clear, then make the sentence clearer by adding that Cork is the 2nd largest city in the state, or in the Republic of Ireland, etc. --] (]) 10:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::Belfast is the second largest city ''on'' the island of Ireland. ] (]) 15:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::Most people ''on'' the island of Ireland - north and south - would say Belfast is the second largest city ''in'' Ireland. ] (]) 19:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I think most people would say Cork, because Belfast is in Northern Ireland. Usually when we talk about cities we also usually refer to their countries too. So Belfast would be the biggest city in Northern Ireland, Dublin the biggest in Ireland, and Cork the second biggest in Ireland. ] ] 20:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
	::::::The above shows just how far the ROI-phobics are prepared to depart from common sense and reality. ] (]) 22:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Still beating the drum, eh? The newest 'twist' of this sordid pov-campaign is that there are two Irelands. There is only one country in the world called Ireland, and pretty obviously you ]. Sorry, there is nothing I can do about that, will just have to live with the reality. ] ] 01:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::By stating, on the one hand, that there is only one Ireland, and then, on the other, arguing Belfast is not in Ireland, you merely reinforce the assessment noted at 22.36 yesterday. ] (]) 09:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::: There are 2 "Irelands". There is the Island of Ireland, the country of Ireland and we can not forget Northern Ireland (which could be considered a 3rd) which is part of the ]. The question being raised here about how to handle whats the second largest city in "Ireland" is a good one, because it just saying Cork is the second biggest city in Ireland, doesnt make clear if we are talking about the island or the country. Its good that we address these matters before reaching a final solution on where the Ireland articles belongs ] (]) 09:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::Why do you oppose my interpretation so fiercely? When we talk about the biggest city, and the second biggest city, we are talking in a particular country. And when we talk about the second biggest in Ireland, we are talking about Cork. And Ireland is the only country in the world called Ireland, so any idea of a mix up is a ]. ] ] 10:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::How does the reader know that (a) "we are talking about a particular country" and that (b) that "particular country" is the 26-county state (as opposed to Ireland generally)? ] (]) 10:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::It's as simple as this. Anyone who would bother to read an encyclopedic article must have some intelligence in the first instance, if that's what they want to do. Intelligent people pick up ideas and concepts quite easily. Your theory would say there are two Washingtons in the USA, the major ones that is. Well it is so simple to understand once pointed out, that one is a state and the other is a city in a different state. And it does not cause any problems for Misplaced Pages, I was reading them last evening. We don't have to assume that everyone who reads WP is incapable of understanding the difference. ] ] 10:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I'll ask again. How does the (intelligent) reader know that (a) "we are talking about a particular country" and that (b) that "particular country" is the 26-county state (as opposed to Ireland generally)? Regarding Washington, if someone were to ask, say, what proportion of people in Washington vote Republican - how would the (intelligent) reader know to which Washington was being referred? Would disambiguation not be necessary? ] (]) 10:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::Context, context, context. If we were talking about American cities, we would immediately know, if we were talking about the American states, we would also immediatly know, it's never a big deal. Rarely these things are alluded to without context. In an article about the six counties, Belfast would be very simple to explain, as NI is a small area. Have faith in the reader, they'll get it. ] ] 11:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::Interesting. So you accept that, where context demands it, one would, in fact, need to say that Cork is the second-largest city in the Republic of Ireland. Maybe we're getting somewhere. ] (]) 11:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::Not in that case, unless we are talking about islands specifically. And seldom do we talk about the second largest city in a particular area. It's usually within countries, and Belfast being second largest anywhere would be less significant than being the largest in the six counties. There is sometimes room for a bit of disambiguation, my preferred use of 'republic' as I wrote somewhere before, it is ''republic of ]'', and only when absolutely necessary. Simple word-craft can eliminate most of these perceived issues. ] ] 11:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::"''Not in that case''"? And what case is that? And why "republic of Ireland (state)" (made-up term) rather than the actual term "Republic of Ireland"? ] (]) 12:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Has nobody thought to see what is currently written on the ] and ] articles? (At least before people from this page begin to edit war over words used on articles that they had never edited - maybe even never read - before.) Since both answers to the question are correct, current practice can give an indication to consensus among articles that this question actually pertains to. Actual current practice is certainly more likely to indicate consensus than mere academic discussion here. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 10:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: The way the articles currently deal with it are good, but ofcourse this gets to the heart of the problem. Certain editors here think its unacceptable for it to say "Republic of Ireland" on the Cork article, in my opinion its reasonable to say republic of Ireland in that case and it should be acceptable.. this is something we need agreement here on, otherwise once a name change happens theres going to be a group of editors on a campaign to remove "Republic of Ireland" from articles to replace it with just Ireland which leads to the confusion mentioned above. ] (]) 12:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::No, the Cork article is set in Ireland, and there is absolutely no need to write anything but Ireland, we are not talking geography here. Somewhat amusing that you fiercely protest that British Isles is not in the least bit ambiguous on the ] page, and you argue the complete diametrical opposite argument here about Ireland. It makes me wonder if encyclopedia improvement is the only motive pushing these arguments. ] ] 12:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Who - other than you - says that, in the Cork article, "we are not talking geography"? ] (]) 12:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Cork is a city in Ireland, and subject to the Constitution of Ireland, it has a political existence in Ireland. I meant to write geology, my misprint is not as important as facts are, and that's what matters here. You just can't let go of your quest to put ROI into every article, even when other editors are trying to be reasonable. ] ] 12:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Cork is also a city in Ireland (the island), it has a geographic (and geological(??)) existence in Ireland. Facts are what matter here. You just can't let go of your quest to purge ROI from every article, even when other editors are trying to be reasonable. ] (]) 12:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Do they sell pop, in Cork? ] (]) 13:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Plagiarism now, is it? I jest. It is also on planet Earth, third rock from the Sun, somewhere in the Milky Way galaxy. Anything more that can be added to the article? Like the planets, these arguments go around in circles, and I'm away to get some Sun. ] ] 13:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::"Certain editors here think its unacceptable for it to say "Republic of Ireland" on the Cork article..." It would appear so. It would also appear appear not to be unacceptable ''there''. And unless it is, we ''here'' are inventing problems for ''there'' that don't exist.
	:::"...once a name change happens theres going to be a group of editors on a campaign..." Ah, yes. ]. The good citizens of Cork and Belfast don't know what lies ahead of them, do they? --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 13:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Surely this shouldn't be a big deal? Its pretty easy to use the correct terminology clearly and accurately. For example,''Cork is the third largest city on the ], behind the Irish capital ] and ] in ].'' It's not the best example but it can easily be done.] 15:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::''"Cork is the second-largest city in the Republic of Ireland, and the third-largest city on the island of Ireland"'' ... what's the problem with that? ] 15:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Let's step back here. In general, when we introduce a term that is non-obvious from context (both Ireland and Washington apply), we are generally going to expand that term out and wikilink it ''the first time'' it is used to establish that context per wiki-standards. In the specific case of Cork, this is going to come back to the naming of the articles scheme, but we would not start the article off with "Cork is the second largest city in Ireland" since that is immediately vague, but instead, that "Cork is the second largest city in the (Republic/country/nation state/soverign nation) of Ireland." (whatever we decide on the name for the 26-county country.) Similarly, "Belfast is the second largest city in Ireland." is also vague, and requires expansion. Now, what happens in the rest of the article depends on how "Ireland" is brought up elsewhere. In the case of Cork (the current state of that article) it mentions both the nation and the island, so care has to be stated throughout. In Belfast, the only use of Ireland that I can easily see is to the island (otherwise, it's spelled out Northern Island as the body it is in), so once it's stated "the island of Ireland", it can be presumed to remain that for the rest of the article. --] (]) 15:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::At last. Progress. Hope. Sensible suggestions, let's keep this moving... --] (]) 23:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Crazy changes being made at ] ==
	Can the moderators urgently take a look at whats been happening ] (]) 16:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:The same has been happening at ] too. ] 16:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	The shorter version is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the procedure mandated by the Arbitration Committee for settling this dispute — i.e. the discussion going on here. I suggest filing a report at ]. — ] (]) 16:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:I think we've only been given "powers" (such as they are) to moderate this discussion, not to enforce arbitration. As noted above, ] is the right place. --] (]) 16:52, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: You dont need "powers" to contribute to the debate at those locations to explain that Domer is clearly acting outside of the rules and violating ArbComs rulings. He doesnt seem to think hes done anything wrong, he needs setting straight. We should also address the fact that people have been allowed to contribute here without signing the project page.. it should be compulsary. Also requesting Move protection on all the Ireland articles is clearly needed to prevent nationalists acting up like this again. Weve obviously had too much sun here the past 48 hours. ] (]) 17:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	I really think the moderators need to setup a process as soon as possible in order to avoid something like this happening again. What happened to the idea of polling what should be at ]? Wasn't that meant to be starting shortly?] 18:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Well things were going well until an important point was raised above about how we handle mentioning Ireland in articles, and i agree that we need to get agreement on that before we decide on the name. If we agree to a name change which moves ROI to Ireland (something) then a bunch of editors will go around removing "republic of".. from articles and just leaving it as Ireland which in the above example of Cork makes things confusing. That needs resolving before any vote.
	: After todays attacks on the Ireland / Republic of Ireland articles, i think the template on the talk pages there need updating too. At the moment it says "Per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ireland article names#Back-up procedure, a procedure has been developed at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration, and the project is now taking statements. Before creating or replying to a statement please consider the statement process, the problems and current statements."... We need a note on those pages linking to this but saying DONT try to move articles etc. ] (]) 19:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I thought that had pretty much been agreed. A proposed WP:IMOS text was given and pretty much all the editors agreed to it. Is the Cork example the only thing thats holding it back? Once that is sorted out is it presumed that we are going ahead with the article titles process?] 19:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: Well the cork thing is just one issue where there is clear disagreement about how things need to be handled. These are the things that really do need to be resolved before an agreement to name change happens, otherwise im sure there will be dozens of removals of text which make spark dozens of arguments on different talk pages.. far better to be sure we are all agreed here first. ] (]) 19:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Only one editor - Tfz - has made any issue of the "Cork thing". ] (]) 08:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::You started name calling because I pointed out that cities are usually discussed in relation to their country, and not to their continent/island/territory etc. You ] my opinion, so you called me a "phobic", remember to AGF, as it's policy here. ] ] 14:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::"Well the cork thing is just one issue where there is clear disagreement..." Except, that is, among editors that are actually doing the editing on those articles. ''There'', there doesn't appear to be any sign of disagreement. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 08:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::: Agreed there they have consensus and a well worded article. My concern is as soon as theres a name change, (which is almost certainly going to move the article on the state to something other than Republic of Ireland). A gang will start going through every article mentioning republic of Ireland and seeking to remove the "republic of" from the text. It seems sensible to ensure there is agreement here on these matters before the mob is unleashed resulting in dozens of conflicts on many different articles ] (]) 08:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::That's why we need to go back to the Task Force solution, which was all-encompassing. ] (]) 08:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::"A gang will start going through every article mentioning republic of Ireland..." Which is not in the interest of the encyclopedia. And against the current consensus in articles (where it actually matters). --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 10:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Time to vote? ==
	Is it time to have a vote on this? If so, I propose ] as my first choice, no brackets. This discussion page will go on for years and years, and really it's doing the project no good whatsoever by having this unharmonious loose end hanging about. All other issues will fall into place once the move is made, as they always do. ] ]
	::So if there is a big vote one way or the other....'''Does any one here have any authority to move the page?''' If they don't, there's not much point having a vote. PS "Ireland, country" is a new one on me. Never heard that suggestion before. Things had narrowed down to "Republic of Ireland" or "Ireland (state)" but here we go again. I still support "Ireland (state)". Regards. ] (]) 05:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Could go with ], I don't like brackets, and another editor was making a big deal about brackets earlier in the year, and claimed that was their reason for staying with RoI. ] ] 05:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::I don't see any reason to go against the ] here.--] (]) 14:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Ya can't go wrong with moving ] to '''Ireland (state)''' or '''Ireland (republic)''', ] to '''Ireland (island)''' and ] to '''Ireland''', IMHO. ] (]) 14:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	== A brief summary needed ==
	Could someone please make a brief summary of how things are going on? Is this moving forward? Thanks. -- ] - <small><sup>]</sup></small> 08:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Endless circle. No. ] (]) 08:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	:... meanwhile, apart from ], out in the real world of Misplaced Pages, life goes on as normal. This is a non-issue to most. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 08:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I've become lost on this Collaboration, too. It's giving me a ''deer in the head-lights'' feeling. ] (]) 13:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	(outdent) There are probably a small number of editors whose views could be seen at being at the extreme ends of a bellcurve. Fortunately, the bellcurve appears to be getting steeper. Significant progress is being made. My only wish is that the ArbCom participators would regularly capture the progress and agreements so that we can avoid having to redo discussions and just point back to an agreement or decision. --] (]) 13:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Indeed, a long process which attracted the most contributors of any other - the Task Force - reached the same conclusions that are essentially being repeated now. It's a pity the Task Force was superseded by the nonsense "statementing" process which crashed and burned. ] (]) 14:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Yep, those 2 Taskforces (don't forget the BI one), must have cob-webs in them by now (due to neglect). ] (]) 14:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Proposal: process to find our current position ==
	So much of our argument/counter arguments are lost in the depths of discussion that they are lost to anyone looking from the outside. In order to summarise our current position, I'm proposing that we engage in a relatively short collaborative statement of our current positions. The exercise would see us <u>collaborativly</u> summarising the arguments and counter-arguments and the outcome of them that we have had.
	Each argument, counter-argument and outcome (summary) should be written - collaboratively - in one sentence. These should '''not''' be statements, but arguments (i.e. the need a "because"). They should relate only to a outcome that we want to see from this (so nothing about "Cork is in ''Republic of Ireland'' because..." since "Cork" is not a potential outcome for this process). All of the arguments should be "positive" argument (i.e. no arguments like "The article on the state should NOT be moved because..." or the "The article on the state should NOT be at ''Republic of Ireland'' because...") - this is so the process is less adversarial and more focused on outcomes.
	The counter augments should ONLY address the specific argument that comes before them. The summary should contain a NPOV summary of the results of the argument vs. counter argument.
	Both 'sides' can edit any argument, counter argument or summary.
	So for example:
	:''Argument:'' The state article should be located at Ireland because Ireland is the state's common name.
	:''Counter argument:'' Not all articles on states are located at their common name (e.g. China)
	:''Summary:'' While not all articles on states are located at their common name, almost all are.
	:''Argument:'' The state article should be located at the Ireland because that is the state's official name.
	:''Counter argument:'' Most articles on states on Misplaced Pages do not appear at the official name of the state (e.g. ] vs. ])
	:''Summary:'' Most articles on states do not appear at the official name of that state.
	The intention is that the end of this process (we can set a date - two or three days from now), we will have a summary of every argument we've had. And an NPOV summary of the result in a digestible form. (Plus we - hopefully - won't be at each other throats while we are doing it.) --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 15:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	Why don't we just vote now? We all know what it is at this stage. ] (]) 13:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
	''(Sarek had two summaries here, but moved them)''
	:Thats great but its just another delay most people already know what they want to do and know the arguements up and down. Maybe as a way of preserving how the consensus was reached this would be helpful but its not necessary to get to chose an option ] (]) 14:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Though I prefer moving the 3 Ireland articles-in-question. I must admit, that their current status has advantages (in avoiding confusion). ] (]) 14:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::So make a arg/count/summ in the section below. :-) --] (]) 14:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Your's sums it all up, accurately. ] (]) 14:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
	MITH, while I was wrong to delete your comments, note that we're trying to summarize the arguments below: hence, they're not "your comments", just like the lines I edited aren't mine. --] ([[User
	talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 16:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Understood. I am not trying to make my points, just rational points in general.] 16:18, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Position argument summaries ==
	Participants:
	* ] (])
	* <span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span>
	*]
	* ]<sup>]</sup>
	* ] ]
	:''Argument:'' The state article should be located at ] because Ireland is the state's common name.
	:''Counter argument:'' Not all articles on states are located at their common name (e.g. ])
	:''Summary:'' While not all articles on states are located at their common name, almost all are. If not they are located at their official names.
	:''Argument:'' The state article should be located at ] because that is the state's official name.
	:''Counter argument:'' (1) Most articles on states on Misplaced Pages do not appear at the official name of the state (e.g. ] vs. ]); (2) The state's official name is ambiguous as it is also the name of ], the island.
	:''Summary:'' Most articles on states do not appear at the official name of that state instead they appear at their common names. Most states' names are not ambiguous.
	:''Argument:'' The state article should be located at ] because the Irish Constitution refers to it as a State.
	:''Counter argument:'' Some people think that a state is a subset of a country.
	:''Summary:'' Using ] could mislead readers as to the state of the state.
	:''Argument:'' The state article should be located at ] because ''country'' is the common word for a sovereign state.
	:''Counter argument:'' Ireland-the-island is also commonly called a country, there may be confusion between the two.
	:''Summary:'' The entire island of Ireland and the state of Ireland can be considered countries by different interest groups.
	:''Argument:'' The island article should be located at ] because the island named Ireland goes back much further than the state.
	:''Counter argument:'' Using ] for the island prevents the current state from having an article under its Constitutionally-defined name and common name.
	:''Summary:'' Both the island and the sovereign state have justifiable reasons to using the title "]".
	:''Argument:'' The current ] article should be located at ] because it is ]. It is about more than just the island in a geographic sense.
	:''Counter argument:'' Expanding a geographic article more to include non geographic information leans towards satisfying a certain POV as there is no identifiable obvious primary topic.
	:''Summary:'' Some editors see the island as the primary topic, while others apply it to the sovereign state.
	:''Argument:'' The article on the state must be moved from ] because ''Republic of Ireland'' is not the official name or most common name of the state of the state.
	:''Counter argument:'' (1) Nearly all articles on states on Misplaced Pages are located at a title that is not the official name of the state (e.g. '']'' not ''Federal Republic of Germany'', '']'' not ''Commonwealth of Australia''). (2) There is no such obligation to move any one of these articles just because it is at the title that is not the name of the state. (3) The article cannot be moved to Ireland, because that is the name of the island, and ''Republic of Ireland'' is the official description and a commonly-used alternative name.
	:''Summary:'' ] is a once off case. Articles are usually located at their common names and if not, they are located at their official names instead. In the Republic of Ireland's case neither is the case.
	:''Argument:'' The title should be away from ], because while use of the term Republic of Ireland could be declared as relatively common, its use is erroneous and is mostly done by the British media who have not changed their practices since the ].<sup>this argument needs to be rephrased to avoid "negative arguments"</sup>
	:''Counter argument:'' The phrase is used by books, academic journals and TV, radio and press in the Republic of Ireland, the UK and worldwide. There is nothing unusual about the of either ''Republic of Ireland'' or ''Ireland'' to refer to the state by the British press. Neither is it "erroneous" - it is not erroneous to call France ''France'' instead of ''the French Republic''. The Belfast Agreement was a wide ranging agreement between two states: neither Misplaced Pages nor the press is bound by it.
	:''Summary:'' While some believe its use to be erroneous, others believe that it is a perfectly correct term to use.
	:''Argument:'' While the term ] was invented by the Irish Government, the Irish Taoiseach who passed it, John Costello made it clear it was not to be used as a name ( or ]). Use of the term only spread as the British government refused to recognise the constitutional name of the country making ROI more common in the UK until 1998.
	:''Counter argument:'' ''Republic of Ireland'' is commonly used by books, academic journals, TV, radio and print media in the Republic of Ireland, the UK and worldwide. It is not certain how Costello intend it to be used, but, whatever his intentions, it has widespread use as name for the state today.
	:''Summary:'' While officially not meant to be a name, the description Republic of Ireland is sometimes used by people instead of its official and common name in circumstances where context is not clear.
	:''Argument:'' The title ] may suggest to a reader that it is the name of the country, as every other country article either uses either an official name or the most common short form name; of which Republic of Ireland is neither.
	:''Counter argument:'' Republic of Ireland is a common name for the country in question. Whether it is shorter or longer than the official name is of no consequence. The opening line of the lede and/or a hatnote can explain to the reader that the "official name" is Ireland. <sup>Doesn't really argue the point that ROI is not a name, nor the most common one even if it is deemed as one regardless of the facts.</sup>
	:''Summary:''
	:''Argument:'' The title should remain at ] because it is commonly used by government, media and the populace whenever necessary to disambiguate between the state and the island, and the island article is already at ].
	:''Counter argument:'' ] is not the state's name nor is it the most common name, nor is it commonly used by government media and populace when disambiguation is not necessary. Also the location of the island article (currently at ]) is also subject to change under this process.
	:''Summary:'' Republic of Ireland is usually only used when dismbiguation is necessary.
	:''Argument:'' Misplaced Pages is supposed to educate and enlighten readers, and not confuse. A pretence by Misplaced Pages that 'Republic of Ireland' is the name of the state has no educational value whatsoever.
	:''Counter argument'': Some editors claim that readers might not be able to understand the complexity of one of two states on an island assuming the name of the entire island.
	:''Summary'':
	:''Argument:'' The state article should be located at ] because the state owns 85% of the island.
	:''Counter argument'': The state does not control or claim 100% of the land surface of the island. The remaining 15% is Northern Ireland.
	:''Summary'': Area covered by Northern Ireland or the republic has nothing to with any potential article names on Misplaced Pages.
	:''Argument:'' There is clearly a need to disambiguate between the island and the state, and use of the real-world name of the island and the real-world official description of the state allows us to do so without use of artifical disambiguators such as , , , etc.
	:''Counter argument'': It is better to change to our own article names by consensus or an agreed process.
	:''Summary'': We can use either real-world article titles or come up with our own.
	==Recap==
	The short bit - If the RoI article is not to be moved to "Ireland", I agree with the compromise proposal that:
	*the RoI article to "Ireland (state)";
	*the island article to "Ireland (island)"; and
	*"Ireland" be a DAB.
	For those who wish to read on:
	There are a bunch of states that have geographic names that do not fully correspond with their borders – Examples:
	*] – The state of that name does not include ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include the ];
	*] – The state of that name does not include lots of places in South Africa such as ];
	....The names of all of the above states have Misplaced Pages articles that follow their usual names.Why is ] being singled out? Regards. ] (]) 20:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	:(How may times/places are you going to post the same thing? Anyway, here's the same reply as I posted to you this morning.)
	:And there are states where, like ]/], the opposite is the case. E.g.:
	:* ]/]/]/]
	:* ]/]/]
	:* ]/]/]
	:* ]/]
	:As we all know, too, hardly any articles on states on WP are located at their "official" names. Nobody is "singling" Ireland out. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 21:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	:(This dicussion is taking place on ].) --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 21:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	::And over there redirects to here. Lets just keep the dicussion here instead. --] (]) 13:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Re the China "counter-example" referred to above, '''Below I recycle some China/Ireland type arguement
	:::In case any genuine non-POV users might get confused and consider ] some sort of acceptable example to follow:
	:::*PRC (Peoples Republic of China) is the ''official name'' of the most widely recognised China. The large majority of countries recognise the PRC as the only Chinese State;
	:::*ROC (Republic of China) is the ''official name'' of the much less recognised China - more commonly know as Taiwan (which is where the non-Communists established themselves after the Chinese Civil War and where the Communists have never ruled). A minority of countries, for example, the ] recognise only the ROC (Taiwan) as the Chinese State;
	:::That is broadly the reason for the way the ], the ] and the ] have the article names they do.
	:::In contrast:
	:::*RoI (]) is ''not the official name'' of the Irish State;
	:::*"Ireland" is the name by which the Irish State is recognised by every country in the world (including even UK of GB and NI!);
	:::In short, there is '''''no comparison between the Chinese and Irish article names!''''' Regards. ] (]) 22:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
	Re Congo and Korea - Firstly, none of the 4 states concerned claim to be simply "Congo" or "Korea" as the case may be. More importantly, even if the Congos or Koreas did claim they should be known simply as "Congo" or "Korea" as the case may be - they would be claims of multiple states. In contrast Ireland is the only state in the world that asserts that its name is Ireland and that name is recognised by every state in the world without qualms.
	Re ], that name is more comparable with the ] (check where that link brings you - its a DAB, somethin I suppor Ireland becoming). No comparison with Ireland. Regards. ] (]) 21:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Requested move - Outline of Ireland ==
	It has come to my attention that there is an article named ], which, upon inspection is not about an outline, or list, of articles about the republic of Ireland, but instead clearly lists all subjects related to Ireland, and is clearly misnamed. Any objection to excluding it from the ban on moves and move it? In any case, were it to be about a list of articles or outline of the republic of Ireland, it would still need to be renamed, as republic is not a part of the name of the country Ireland. ] (]) 00:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:<s>I would agree with this, since the outline as it currently stands contains much more than just Irish State-specific material. --] (]) 00:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)</s>Struck per MiTH's clarification below.--] (]) 13:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I disagree. It is of the "outline of countries" category. The content should be changed - not the tile. Once the title for the sovereign state is decided the page can be moved to reflect that.] 00:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::The article is newly created, and may not be properly categorized. However, there clearly is no dispute over the name of the country, only over the names of articles about the country, and the article did not appear to be about that. If it was, it is poorly written. If it is supposed to be about the republic of Ireland, then republic can not be capitalized. ] (]) 00:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Republic can be capitalized. There is no rule saying description's can't be capitalized especially as it does have a capital in the Act when the description was declared. I've read the article and it does mostly deal about the sovereign state. The intro is all sovereign state and so is most of the content. It isn't written that well and does need to be improved. It's title should match the new title given to ROI (whatever that will be) so we should wait.] 00:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::MOS does not permit camel case. ROI is not a proper noun, and can not be capitalized in the title of an article, unless it begins with Republic, and thus R is the first letter. ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 00:55, 4 June 2009 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::::::The first letter 'r' in the noun phrase ''Republic of Ireland'' is always capitalised (). Deliberately decapitalising the 'R' in order to emphasise one thing or the other would distort ]. Please see ] also.--<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 08:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:If the article is about the state, the title should remain ''Topic outline of the Republic of Ireland''. Otherwise, readers may assume it's about the whole island. ] 10:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::''']''' should be used instead of NI, because readers might think NI covers the whole of the northern part of Ireland. ] ] 23:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::There isn't an island called "Northern Ireland" that people might confuse with the state. ] 23:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::This is the first time I've noticed that article. <s>''Outline..?'', shouldn't it begin with ''Border..?''</s> ] (]) 14:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Anyways, it should remain at its current title (at least while ] remains at its current title). ] (]) 14:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	: The problem is solved - The outline is now specifically about the country only, and the links to the island's subtopics have been corrected to point to the country's subtopics instead. Now redlinks indicate what articles need to be created for the country. Or redirects could be created for those, pointing to article sections that cover the subjects specified in the links. Have a nice day. :) ''''']''''' 00:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::No its not. See the talk page and the article itself. I'm afraid your naivety in the subject and resulting actions goes against Arbcom regulations.] 00:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	== '''Facts not Pov''' ==
	Political battles should be fought at Parliament, not here at Misplaced Pages. An encyclopedia is supposed to state the facts, not the pov. BritishWatcher, Mooretwin, and Asarlai are obviously on a concerted campaign to add confusion into the compilation of this encyclopedia. Enough of this please. ] ] 13:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Political battles should be fought at Parliament, not here at Misplaced Pages. An encyclopedia is supposed to state the facts, not the pov. Tfz and other editors are obviously on a concerted campaign to add confusion into the compilation of this encyclopedia. Enough of this please. ] (]) 20:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Please do not resort to personal attacks. --] (]) 13:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::That's not a personal attack. Many others will agree with me. About time somebody said this. Domer is suspended for a week for trying to add some clarity to the encyclopedia. Unfortunately that's becoming the order of the day here. ] ] 13:42, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Far from seeking to add confusion, my interest is to end it by replacing ambiguous and misleading terminology with clear terminology. ] (]) 20:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Shooting accusation arrows at editors, won't help this Collaboration process. Best we keep our frustrations in check. ] (]) 13:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::It near impossible to miss "the elephant in the room", even if you don't want to admit it's there. ] ] 13:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I thought that Domer was suspended for asking a question - which was deemed to be disruptive editing ?? - ] (]) 17:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::He was suspended for doing and without any discussion. ] 18:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Curious (and thanks for your explanation). In the ''Log of blocks'' on ] the Sharek says he was banned for because of . which brings us to ''"Please provide a link? "'' ] (]) 19:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::: Getting into a debate about that incident is not a good idea and will simply set back any possible progress that is going to be made here. Lets wait and see what is decided at ] so we know exactly what the policy is on if people are allowed to discuss this in other places or not. ] (]) 21:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Thanks for the link ] (]) 22:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	] is a complete violation of the naming rules. Factalicious!. ] (]) 23:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
	==Months later...Is this process just a ruse?==
	'''Some relevant recycling:''' Is this process just a ruse to ruse to stop the "disruption" caused by the RoI/IRL dispute by pretending that a process is in place to resolve the conflicting viewpoints? I hope this is a genuine process that will lead to a prompt decision but it looks unlikely to me. In particular, the ground rules on the project page state ''"Decisions for the WikiProject will primarily be based on the consensus of members"''. Is some one seriously suggesting a consensus will emerge? If no consensus emerges, does that mean there will be no decision (or another ''decision to make no decision'' as before)? What reason is there to think a consensus will emerge when it has not done so before? Is there a timeframe for this process? '''How long will it run? What is the deadline?''' I think those running this process should answer these questions and set them out on the project page. Participants can then take a view on whether this is a credible process. After all, who runs a project without having a clear timeframe? It goes without saying, I hope the project is successful. It should have credibility. Regards. ] (]) 23:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Time, unfortunately, is proving my original scepticism right. Regards. ] (]) 00:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:I agree. An arbitrator really needs to take this thing by the balls are sort it out once and for all. (Pardon my French).] 00:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: ''What are the alternatives?'' If editors are genuinely interested in change then they have to start giving an inch. The majority of involved editors already have endorsed the compromise position, which may not be their personal preference but they understand it encompasses the alternative viewpoints and thus has the best chance of being accepted. However, a significant minority on either side are holding out for their personal preferences and are intolerant to any other option. ''Those'' are the editors who are standing in the way of progress.
	:: There are only three options as I see it. Either A) those intransigent editors have a long hard look at themselves, acknowledge they are the problem here and start to engage. B) We accept that certain people are never going to accept alternatives and, rather than requiring a traditional consensus, instead go with the option that has the most support or C) we try and convince ArbCom or a panel of moderators to make the decision for us (though they should be aware what sort of abuse they will get when they make ''the wrong decision''). Does anyone else see any other serious alternative? ]<font color="black">e</font>] 01:17, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Ever guess why parliament needs ]? Everyone here should know that by now. I think ArbCom will have to come in and impose the solution. They are going to make everyone outraged and happy at the same time. And the solution, right down the middle. Prediction, Ireland becomes ], island becomes ], and state becomes ]. Now if everyone can live with that solution, then that will do just fine. Forget about piping until afterwards, that too will sort itself out. ] ] 03:30, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me.--] (]) 04:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Seriously, though, that's a solution I see working, and would not raise an objection to<s>, though it wouldn't be my first choice</s>.--] (]) 04:03, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Actually, I take that back. I think it ''is'' my first choice, because if Ireland continues to refer to the island, it will still have the potential for ambiguity. Making that the disambiguator makes it much easier to distinguish where new contributions should go.--] (]) 04:06, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::I also proposed this long ago and it remains my preferred solution for the article names. We also need policy for when it is legitimate to use "Republic of" where necessary to disambiguate within articles. I think that '''Ireland (disambiguation) —> Ireland''' is a legitimate option and I would like to see it considered seriously by ArbCom for the article names. -- ]·] 08:44, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	It's a joke that people seem to desperately want to be told what to do by arbcom. They are not your mothers, they are not your teachers, they are not your betters. You can't really blame the naughty kids for this disaster, the fault of the absolute failure of this process to come up with anything but repetition primarily lies with absent administrators, the only reason nobody is interested in this crap anymore is that not a single person is ever pulled up for tendencious editting. Of the hundreds available, the two examples that come to mind quickly are Redking's incessant copy pasting of the same points, and Mooretwin's incessant harping back to IDTF, and that's before we go over old ground about AGF and accusations of POV/CABALs. I predicted as much in the arbcom case, if a proper accountable and available panel of admins were not appointed to oversee ''behaviour'' with the expectation of actually doing what they were appointed to do and enforce behavioural policies, then nothing would get done here that didn't resemble all previous train wrecks. Did any of your all seeing all knowing arbitrators listen, did they bollocks. They cannot even bother themselves to examine a simple request for an ammendment to stop the latest batch of bad behaviour. The pitiful participation count we are down to now on this page would not produce any legitimate solution at all. This page ceased to have any meaningfull mandate long ago, considering anything it comes up with has to demonstrate consensus. ] (]) 04:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:I have long supported the Dab/state/island compromise. Is there a way we can get ArbCom to make a binding decision? Regards. ] (]) 12:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::While I appreciate Mick's point about the arbcom not being our betters - and they are not - if anything they are less informed of the nuances. Yet a solution is required, Too much time and effort is being squandered. And votes on absolute positions are not a solution Red is putting forward a compromise, albeit imperfect, but still a solution: ::Ireland->dab. Ireland(state). Ireland(island). and RoI is a football team
	::I know thats wrong, but its the lesser of two evils, Why not have such a solution for a trial period? ] (]) 12:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::I agree. It is the obvious compromise solution regarding the titles and it should strongly be looked into.] 13:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::And if ArbCom imposed a solution that you didn't like, would you abide by it? ArbCom have said they will '''not''' arbitrate on content disputes, which is essentially what this is. Their compromise solution was to arbitrate on the '''process'''. Their appointees were supposed to devise/impose a process. As far as I can see no one has a clear idea what the process involves. It has metamorphosised a number of times, its been hijacked, all to no real effect. Yet agin the discussion here centers not on the process but on what the preferred solution is. It's just a nonsense. It has alienated a large number of formerly interested editors who will only contribute when eventually someone says "Let's vote!". ] (]) 13:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	You've utterly missed the point. Everybody knows what you want, you've repeated it a billion times. But if you tried to present this solution supported by facts and consensus to the wider community, where is your evidence? You don't have it, because the process to show it is a sensible and legitimate move in an organised manner, that somebody could read in a few hours, has been a bloody disaster, and we are down to two or three people left, repeating the same thing said a year ago, in the same format. It did not get consensus then, so what do you think is different now, because the community has not been following this car crash at all. It won't be interested in the logic behind any change, no matter how much people insist it is 'the obvious solution'. And tediously, to make up for this failure, as usual, people are still insisting arbocom should just implement it, which for very obvious reasons, ''is not what they do''. ] (]) 14:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:I won't call this whole process a ruse (as that isn't AGF), but if it were? it sure has been effective, giggle giggle. ] (]) 15:00, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I would call it a ruse and I agree with you, its been very effective. Unfortunately. ] (]) 15:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Re " appointees were supposed to devise/impose a process" etc. They did that long ago. See the statements on the project page. Re "''It did not get consensus''". Of course not. No consensus will ever emerge. ArbCom needs to pick an outcome. Re "the logic behind any change" has to be shown etc. The arguments (on the stateaments page) gave the reasons. The arguments don't change and thats why they get repeated over and over (by me and by others). In summary, the process has long since run its course. What is outstanding is for ArbCom to issue a decision. By not issuing a decision, they are ofcourse, making the decision to uphold the status quo. But at the end of the process, they should come out and make a decision. Why would ArbCom "for very obvious reasons" not want to arbitrate - isn't that their function? It has long been time for ArbCom to play its role. Otherwise, this absolutely has been a "ruse". Regards. ] (]) 15:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::IMHO, the Arbitrators (via simple-majority vote, among themselves) should force a solution. But, that's not gonna happen, as Arbcom doesn't dictate article content. ] (]) 15:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::This is about article titles, not article content. Regards. ] (]) 15:16, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Oops, I meant article titles too. ] (]) 15:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Wow, what a joke this process is then. Perhaps you could tell me where arbcom's own page is so I could ask them if they are going to make a decision directly. I will also ask them if titles are outside their remit. If they are, I don't know what is in their remit...! I can see I am fighting a loosing battle. Regards. ] (]) 15:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Issuing a content decision is not arbitration. That's a basic fact right there, which won't change no matter how often or how long people bang on and on about how ''something must be done''. The process failed because there was barely any definition of what the process was, not least, nobody had a clue what was to be done with the statements when compiled. And that's ignoring the lack of any administrative control. The next step is not then to just do something anyway because the process has run its course - it hasn't run its course at all, it has crashed and burned. But what to do in that situation? Well, you've answered your own question on that: if there is no consensus shown to change anything, then nothing changes, there is no decision to be made. And I speak as someone who is also not happy with the status quo. But I am not daft enought to start throwing around baseless accusations of sekrit cabals and sophisticated ruses. It would not have taken an elaborate ruse to be able to predict ''as I did'' that if left unchecked and undefined, the discussion would become an unruly uncontrolled farce and end up showing nothing, returning as it would to the well trodden path repeated ad nauseum on the article talk pages. ] (]) 15:30, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::In agreement MickM. The status quo remains, as the onus of getting a consensus falls on the pro-movers (like me). ] (]) 15:34, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	GoodDay...where do you think the majority is...For of against change. Lets get a poll going I suppose and then close the process. There is no consensus for the status quo or for the change. Regards.
	::I've opened a poll re the "RoI" article on its talk page. Regards. ] (]) 17:16, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: Your silly little poll is just going to cause more conflict, what on earth was the point in doing that. :\ ] (]) 18:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::The time has come for pro-movers (like me) to accept facts, we're never going to get a consensus for title changes. ] (]) 19:44, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Regarding the Community Poll ==
	I do not mind Deacon's moving the poll to the project, or even to taking a poll, but I object to the poll's not offering the option to move '''Ireland (disambiguation)''' to '''Ireland''' and I believe it should allow people to rank their votes in terms of preference. See the Talk page of his poll, please. (These objections are made in good faith. There is a reasonable number of people who ''have'' supported '''Ireland''' = disambiguation, '''Ireland (state)''' and '''Ireland (island)''' as a compromise.) -- ]·] 15:10, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Agree. And some sort of 'preference' is also a good idea. Regardless, I presume this poll won't upon until after Arbcom have dealt with the current resolution? ]<sup>]</sup> 15:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	==Proposal to move forwards==
	The general opinion I'm getting from the comments above and on ] that, although some users might like the Arbitration Committee to choose a particular choice of article title, most users believe that it is highly unlikely that the ArbCom will do this as doing so would be tantamount to settling a ], something they have traditionally been loathe to become involved with.
	It also seems that the moderators do not propose to force a particular means of settling this dispute on us. Originally I thought that this was a failing by the moderators, but after consideration I no longer think that. I expect that the moderators feel that by not endorsing one scheme over another they remain perceived as less biased. On reflection, I think this is beneficial.
	Therefore we are left having to find a way of solving this ourselves. What I propose here is, I hope, the start of that process. It is not a specific proposal on how the articles should be named, nor is it even a specific proposal on how to decide that; instead it is an outline of how the whole process should work, and a mechanism by which we chose the way forward. It also seeks to establish ground rules and the start of a time line. What I am suggesting below may sound unnecessarily bureaucratic, however I don't believe it actually is. Partly the verbiage is because I have tried to spell out in detail how this should operate in an effort to avoid subsequent ].
	===Ground rules (proposal)===
	'''Accepting this proposal'''
	# Users should indicate below whether they '''support''' or '''oppose''' this proposal.
	## IP addresses may not participate in this poll.
	## Users may change their vote at any point up to the close of the poll.
	# This poll closes at 23:59 (]) on the evening of Sunday 14th June. After the poll has closed, this proposal is deemed to have succeeded if:
	## more users vote to support than vote against it; and
	## at least two moderators vote in favour of it, and none vote against it.
	# Any discussion of this should be made in the relevant section.
	## Comments interspersed with the votes may be deleted by any user.
	## As a corollary, a vote to accept this proposal cannot be conditional on a particular amendment.
	# In addition to voting, users may propose amendments to these basic ground rules, an example of which is given below.
	## Amendments must be proposed no later than 23:59 (UTC) on the evening of Thursday 11th June and not altered after this date.
	## Amendments are decided by vote and are subject to the same rules as the main vote, including the closing date.
	## As an exception, there is no requirement for any moderators to endorse or not oppose any amendment for them to take effect.
	# In the event of several seemingly-incompatible amendments being accepted, the moderators shall, at their sole discretion, resolve the incompatibility; they may do this in any manner, including (but not limited to):
	## by deeming each of the incompatible amendments to have failed;
	## by only accepting the amendment with the most endorsements;
	## by synthesising a combined amendment combining the key properties of all the seemingly-incompatible amendments.
	# The moderators' decision (whether by unanimity, majority, or unopposed unilateral action) can only be overruled by the moderators themselves, or by the Arbitration Committee.
	# If this proposal has been endorsed, any successful amendments shall be applied to these ground rules and the result published here.
	'''Selecting an on-going process'''
	# Any user may propose a process by which we decide how to select the names of the articles.
	## A user may not propose more than one process.
	## All processes must be proposed by 23:59 (UTC) on Wednesday 17 June, and not modified after this date.
	## Proposals may be made before the adoption of these ground rules (on 14 June).
	# A user may abandon a proposed process in which case it shall be removed from the poll unless another proposer can be found.
	# The rules above regarding comments and protracted discussion apply here too.
	# A process is only deemed admissible if, in sole opinion of the moderators:
	## it is not unduly biased towards any particular outcome (with that the ] ''may'' be prefered in the event of a tie break);
	## it must clearly set out how the whole remainder of the process will work, including setting out a time scale for the process; and
	## it should yield a result no later than 1 Dec 2009, preferably earlier;
	# Processes may choose to address a wider range of issues than simply the names of the two Ireland articles.
	## However it should be noted that the Irish Collaboration Wikiproject only has a ArbCom mandate to make a binding decision on the names of those two articles.
	# The process to be adopted will be determined by ], with each user ranking the possible proposals in order.
	## Users ''may'' choose to only rank their top few proposals, and not need to rank every proposal; there is no way of choosing a 'worst' choice without ranking all other proposals.
	## IP addresses may not participate in this poll.
	## Users may change their vote at any point up to the close of the poll.
	# The moderators' decision (whether by unanimity, majority, or unopposed unilateral action) can only be overruled by the moderators themselves, or by the Arbitration Committee.
	—] (]) 15:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	====Support / Oppose====
	''Poll closes at 23:59 (UTC) on Fri 12 Jun. Comments made in this section may be deleted by any user''
	# '''Support''' —] (]) 15:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' -] (]) 17:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' -] (]) 21:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' -]<sup>]</sup> 22:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' --] (]) 23:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support'' --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 05:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' - ] (]) 09:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' -] (]) 11:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' - ] (]) 11:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' - -- ]·] 06:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	====Discussion of ground rules====
	Any thoughts? —] (]) 15:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	I thought we were !voting on whether we should accept the "ground rules" or not, and not ? Anyway, here are the reasons I gave on why I opposed the IP proposal above: "(As a former long-term IP and writer of ]) If this is to be a '''vote''' then IP votes should not be counted in the result, however they should be able to '''!vote''' and contribute to discussion at the same level as everyone else." --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 00:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Why would it take until December to have an outcome! This process has already been going on for months. Any way, nothing new is proposed above. The statement process has already taken place. The arguments have been put. What was needed was a decision. December 2009! Is this process a ruse!!! I think so. Regards. ] (]) 05:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: We're getting some leadership at long last, if it takes to December then thats how long it takes. --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 06:00, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: Why wait until December? Well we're not necessarily. I hope it will be resolved well before that. 1 Dec 2009 is really more of a backstop than an actual deadline: a proposal that is likely to have everything fully resolved by August would be accepted under these ground rules, whereas a proposal that faffed around until sometime next year would be disqualified. The last thing I want is for editors in favour of the status quo to force a proposal through that will, literally, run for ever (e.g. a proposal that says let's wait until we have 100% agreement). But equally, I'd rather take a while to do things properly and not rule out wider consultation simply on grounds of time. December is a compromise between the two extremes. —] (]) 11:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Isn't the "amendment" simply an example, rather than a specific proposal? Who is the proposer and why is everyone supporting or opposing it? ]<font color="black">e</font>] 07:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Yes, it was intended as an example, and as such I had deliberately chosen something that I thought there was broad consensus ''against''. However I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to express support or opposition to it. At least that way we've thought about it before any future issues involving IPs come to a head. –] (]) 10:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	As a supporter of the ''status quo'', can I say 1) I resent the implication that supporters of the ''status quo'' would try and keep this going on indefinitely - I've sure I've argued previously that we need a final decision to stop the ''pro change'' people from continually bringing up move polls every couple of months! 2) 1st December is too far away. We've been at this particular process since last year. 31st July would be more preferable, 31st August probably more realistic. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	: First, I apologise if I in any way implied that any specific pro-status quo user might choose to manipulate the process in this way. Perhaps there are users who would do that, and perhaps not; I'm certainly not suggesting that you or any other specific user would. The point of the deadline is to reassure users opposed to the status quo that the procedure cannot be railroaded in this manner.
	: On you second point, yes I agree that 1 Dec is too far away. I'm intending shortly to propose the process suggested ] by BrownHairedGirl. Her process involves four stages: statement consolidation on problem 1, a vote on problem 1, statement consolidation on problem 2.1 or 2.2 (whichever is relevant following the previous step, and a vote on problem 2.1/2.2. My initial thoughts are that the statement consolidation steps should take a fortnight each, and the votes a week each. This would have the whole matter tied up by 3rd August.
	: However, others may have different opinions on how this should be resolved, and I wouldn't want to prevent someone from proposing a longer, slower process. That said, I shan't be voting for a process that drags out until 1 Dec unless there are very clear benefits to spending that long over it. 1 Dec is the point where we say: that's unquestionably too long—you're not even allowed to propose that.
	: But if you still feel I've got the back-stop date wrong, feel free to propose an amendment to change it. That's what's the amendment mechanism is for.
	: —] (]) 12:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Thanks for the response. If we could finally resolve this by 3rd August, that'd be great. I'm wondering, though, if you're aware of ] proposal to amend the prior Arbcom ruling, and ] which was recently moved to a subpage of this project? ]<sup>]</sup> 12:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::And of my objections to the completeness of that poll (see its Talk page)? -- ]·] 06:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	===Amendments (proposal)===
	'''Example amendment: Anonymous users'''
	''Although given as an example, if a proposer can be found, users may vote for/against this as with any other amendment.''.
	Replace the rules barring anonymous users with: ''IP addresses may participate unless an administrator deems them to be a sock puppet of another account that has already voted''.
	# '''Oppose''' —] (]) 15:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Support''' -] (]) 17:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 20:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' - ] (]) 21:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' --] (]) 22:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' ]<sup>]</sup> 22:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' --] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 05:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' - ] (]) 09:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' - ] (]) 11:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' - --] (]) 15:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	# '''Oppose''' - -- ]·] 06:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	===The poll itself (proposal)===
	First, I do able setting up some ground rules makes sense, and thus applaud the above effort.
	As for the poll itself, reading ] (this suggestion version), I don't think this will solve all the issues, or at least in the best manner.
	I suggest that the poll we need will be a three question poll - all other issues should fall out of that: ('''DO NOT VOTE YET''' I'm only seeking input)
	:'''Question 1''': Which of the following options should be used to name the island of Ireland, the nation-state of Ireland, and the disabmiguation part for "Ireland"?
	::a) ] for the island, ] for the disambiguation page, and the answer to Question 2 for the nation-state.
	::b) ] for the island, ] for the disambiguation page, and the answer to Question 2 for the nation-state.
	::c) None of the above
	:'''Question 2''': Which of the following should be used to name the nation-state of Ireland, '''presuming''' that ] is used either for the island or the disambiguation page and thus unavailable as an option?
	::a) ]
	::b) ]
	::c) ]
	::d) ]
	::e) (other possible choices?)
	::f) None of the above
	:'''Question 3''': In articles relating to the nation-state of Ireland in which other uses of Ireland (such as the island, Northern Ireland, or the like) may be used or confused with the meaning of the world "Ireland", what term should be used to describe that nation-state? (This would apply to both article titles such as "Economy of (name)" and within the body of such articles.
	::a) country of Ireland
	::b) state of Ireland
	::c) Republic of Ireland
	::d) (other possible options?)
	::e) None of the above
	These three questions, as best as I can tell from reading, are the core dispute, and smaller issues (such as the most recent discussion of when it's necessary to spell out the name of the nation-state of Ireland (per Q3) in articles) will fall out from that. This also reflects the fact that there is minimal to no consensus to have ] be the nation-state.
	Please note if you have any other valid choices for Q2 or Q3, now's the time to voice them. This will be a straight-up poll; there will be discussion on a talk page but no need to discuss votes here.
	If, for some reason, "None of the above" receives majority votes, then we'll need to come back here, but I think this poll (with announcements of it on ], ] and elsewhere) will resolve 95% of the issues, the rest of sweeping the last bit of dust under the rug. --] (]) 15:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	====Discussion of the poll itself====
	:Can I just clarify, are you proposing this as one possible way forward per the ''Selecting an on-going process'' section (above)? Or are you using your position as a moderator to say that this is how it will be done? I've no problem with either, but it would be useful to clarify things. If you're doing the latter, then we can abandon what I started above as it no longer have a role. —] (]) 16:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I am asking, as a moderator, does this poll make sense as part of the on-going process. I am not saying this '''is''' the poll. --] (]) 16:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Personally I would add one more option to Question 1:
	:::(c) ] for the nation-state, ] for the disambiguation page, and another option (] or ]) for the island.
	:::(d) None of the above
	:::] (]) 16:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Understandably, that's the logical third choice, but in reviewing all pass input to this project, it's the one with the ] of passing (this is a moderator opinion to simplify matters). But this is why I've left a None of the Above option - if for some reason everyone involved here has misread the discussion and people really want this option, then ok, we can go back and discuss this. If others think the nation-state option as ] should be included before the poll, then it's possible. --] (]) 16:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::If we are going to use ], then we shouldn't be presuming we know which options have a ]. IMHO, that will be most people 2nd choice, and will therefore end up as as the preferred option. Lets give people the choice, otherwise there's no point. We might as well ask the mods to make a decision. ] (]) 16:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Good point, that should then be an option, but I would have trouble justifying "Island of Ireland" as a renaming option for the island since I don't see any support for this; if we did include that, we'd basically need two more questions in the same manner as Q2 and Q3 for the nation-state. --] (]) 17:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Island of Ireland is used , relatively speaking. ] (]) 17:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::I definitely wouldn't go for 'Ireland (country)' for the state's name as there are at least 700,000 people in Northern Ireland who claim that their country is Ireland, the whole island. That is why they are called Irish nationalists. I think, if anything, 'Ireland (country)' should be one of the options under Ireland, the island. Odd how it has not appeared given that even all the Protestant churches are based on an all-Ireland structure. 'Ireland (state)' is my preferred option for the state, and 'Ireland (country)' or 'Ireland (island)' for the whole country. ] (]) 05:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::(ec) @Masem: I probably didn't express my question very well. What I'm trying to establish is, are you suggesting this poll as one of the options in the ''Selecting an on-going process'' section above, or do you not wish to carry out the process I mentioned above? Clearly if one of the moderators doesn't wish the process I was proposing above to make place then it is not viable. That would strike me as a bit sad as it is the only suggestion that I've noticed that has received (so far) unanimous support. Nevertheless, as one of the moderators how you continue this is your call, but it would be nice to know. —] (]) 16:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Consider it as a user-proposed option under #1 of the ground rules. --] (]) 17:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Question 3 should definitely be included, but I think it should be more detailed. Participants should be offered the same options, but the vote should be on rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid's . ] 17:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::This would be part of the cleanup after counting the results that I offer. The core of rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid's proposal above is that there are set names for the nation-state, island, and other factors, and once those are set, it describes the appropriate choices when to use them in articles. The latter aspects are important to recognized but less critical to the issue of the naming scheme here. If there is dispute that rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid's suggested scheme is inappropriate, then we can work some more, but for this core poll, which, as noted, is 95% of the issue, let's keep it focused on the basic goals of the collaboration to get that resolved. --] (]) 18:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::1 December is a total joke. No decent reasons given why it would take until 1 December to decide the titles of 3 articles! Perhaps you should see my posting from months ago calling for an April or May deadline etc....1 December! Regards. ] (]) 18:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::ps...who is the ''joker'' proposing "Ireland (soverign nation)" or looking for "other possible choices". Adding in options like that is simply pretending matters are more complicated then the are. The real choice is very simple:
	:::::#Dab/IRL(island)/IRL (state) '''v'''
	:::::#status quo.
	:::::Why the desire to throw out the months of "process" and pretend we are starting from scratch. The arguments have been well had and thrashed out. Lets get to a poll. Have the propsers even read the project page with its statements. Lets have a conclusion at the end of the month. Regards. ] (]) 18:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I agree with Superfopp that Q 3 needs to be thought about more. For example I'm not sure why "]" could be considered ambiguous as geographical islands don't have economies (At the moment it's just a redirect). For actual ambiguous titles I thought that applying the state article title was the obvious solution. eg. ] or whatever it turns out to be. Rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid's proposal also needs to be brought in somewhere.] 19:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	I would consider ] used as the nation-state of Ireland as out of contention considering the . I would suggest that our policies of ] and in particular ] would also prevent us using this option. I hope that helps move the discussion along. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 19:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Please can we keep focused on how we are going to decide this rather than reiterating the arguments for and against specific choices? If the arguments are so clear-cut against a specific choice then let's ] and assume that people won't vote for it. —] (]) 19:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Re.: "Please can we keep focused on how we are going to decide this rather than reiterating the arguments for and against specific choices?" - It will be decided by way of a poll - The arguments have already been had out. Agreed. Lets get on with a poll. Regards. Its:
	:::::#Dab/IRL(island)/IRL (state) '''v'''
	:::::#status quo.
	::Regards. ] (]) 20:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::I disagree. The community needs a free and full choice of options under STV. That way we will get a true picture of which is the most acceptable option. ] (]) 20:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::I have to agree that if STV is to be used, all reasonable options are to be considered. This will minimize future ambiguity on the results of the poll. (And yes, we're not talking about what options are best supported, this is just to outline what the poll should look like). --] (]) 21:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	Ras52 you say that " if want to put additional requirements on proposals, propose an amendment to ground rules to require them" I placed my suggestions under the title "Proposed amendments" could you explain were I should propose if not under "Proposed amendments." Masem I'll accept all "reasonable options" as long as they are not in conflict with Wiki Policies. That is, they are fact based supported by our policies of ] using ] and subject to ]. This will remove future ambiguity and command the support of the Community and no group of editors. This will in my opinion Fmph give a true picture of which is the most acceptable option. Thanks, --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 22:16, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	:The "Example amendment: Anonymous users" section was intended as an example of how to submit an amendment. If you do something similar and append it to the "Proposed amendments" section (i.e. immediately below the example), you won't go far wrong. Make sure you make it clear which rules you are amending, or if inserting additional rules, where they belong. We can then vote on it in the same way as the example one. Also, if you have several orthogonal changes to propose, if they can logically be separated into separate amendments, that might be useful, especially if some proposals are more likely to be accepted than others. —] (]) 22:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
	Thanks Ras52. Can I just clarify, is it the opinion of all, that a ] is the only solution being considered as part of the ''Selecting an on-going process.'' Is there any alternative to polling and what are they? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 07:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Domer48, So far as I'm concerned you can propose any process you like so long as it isn't overtly biased and will yield a result in the alloted time frame. I'm not quite sure I can see how a process without polling will work, but perhaps that's just lack of imagination on my part. But if you have any ideas of how a process without (or with less) polling would work, please go ahead and propose it. Irrespective of whether it is process finally chosen, it will be interesting to see how such a process might work. —] (]) 13:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	I '''stongly oppose''' this type of poll as a means of resolving the problem, as it is still dependent on dividing up the issues and voting separately on them. As I have stated many times previously, the only way to achieve a fair and stickable compromise is to agree EVERYTHING as a COMPREHENSIVE package. The solution - it seems clear to me - lies in a compromise: change the title of the ROI article in return for an agreement that ROI can be used within article texts when disambiguation is appropriate. If there is to be any poll, therefore, it should be on a comprehensive package as was proposed on the Ireland Disambiguation Task Force. By dividing up the issues, we invite the majority (even if it is only a narrow 51% majority) to "win" on every issue, leaving a disgruntled minority; whereas a compromise means 100% win something but 100% also concede something. ] (]) 10:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	: I strongly disagree with Mooretwin's POV on this. There's no point on having a "comprehensive" package just to make sure some editors aren't unhappy. This process is about deciding what is the most NPOV and best solution. What makes editors happy or unhappy is irrelevant it's all about deciding what each individual aspect is best for the reader.] 10:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::In that case, why is a poll being proposed at all? ] (]) 12:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Different editors think different solutions are best for the readers. Thats what this all comes down to.] 12:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Yes, that is correct. And there is no consensus. Hence the problem. Consensus will not be achieved by a poll, which basically comes down to one "side" winning by force of numbers. If we compromise, however, we can achieve a consensus whereby we all gain something but also concede something. ] (]) 20:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:At the end of this, this is a compromise. When all the issues and their resolve are put together and laid out, I very much doubt that any editor without an active interest in the area will find the results to be 100% in their favor, but instead will find a number of results that he or she is satisfied with, and a number that they are ok with and a few that they disagree with but understand the consensus process. That's the whole point of consensus is to find a solution that the bulk of involved editors can agree they can work with even if it is not their preferred choice. There's a reason that the call to use STV here makes sense, because we can at least consider editors' second and third options should they choose to provide that. If we were to try to define the "comprehensive" plan, there would exactly one possible option for each involved editor, and we'd never get anything done that way. This type of poll (the one I proposed) is the shortest route to establishing the baseline issues and closing this issue done for the long term. --] (]) 12:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::It's not a compromise if you separate out the issues to be decided upon separately, because all you achieve is a "winners takes all" scenario, and it does not encourage compromise. A "winner takes all" is not, by definition, consensus. If such a poll occurs, for example, I will vote for the same outcome in all three polls. In a package solution I would be required to compromise. Again, I ask: what is wrong with IDTF proposal which gained more support than any previous suggestion? ] (]) 20:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: I agree with Mooretwin on this, there needs to be a reasonable compromise which will lead to both sides concerns being addressed. Certain options are only acceptable to some people if things in another of the questions are accepted. Perhaps it would be better to combine the 3 questions into one just with a far larger number of options which people could rank. So for example, people could vote for...
	::: 1) Change title from ] to ] using a pipelink of ] in most articles and text except for when there is a clear case of ambiguity because of Northern Ireland or the Island of Ireland, in which case... ] and "Island of Ireland" is used.
	::: 2) Keep title at ] using a pipelink of ] in most articles and text except for when there is a clear case of ambiguity because of Northern Ireland or the Island of Ireland, in which case... ] and "Island of Ireland" is used.
	::: 3) Change title from ] to ] and ONLY use ] in articles and text when talking about the sovereign state. Move the article on the island to ] and always use the full title in articles text to avoid confusion with the state.
	:: Ofcourse if we did something like that there would probably be more than a dozen options to choose from but atleast it deals with the whole problem, not splitting them into questions when certain things like the title and how to talk about it within articles is linked. ] (]) 13:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	MASEM, IMO you have hit the nail on the head above, "establishing the baseline issues and closing this issue for the long term." The base line issues have not been clearly defined. Any proposal must begin by clearly defining the problem to be resolved, and then providing a rational for the proposal which attempts to address the issue. I don’t think there is much support for a ], and it appears that it is seen as a last option. Likewise, consensus on what the problem is has not been established. Some attempt at defining the problem was attempted . The statements can be divided into two clear groups, those statements which addressed themselves to the possible solution without defining the problem and those which addressed themselves to the actual problem, but not the solution. Would it be possible for the moderators to present what they define the problem to be, or ask the editors who put forward a solution/problem to attempt the opposite. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 13:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	: There is really only one problem. Ireland is ambiguous, but i know thats something you do not accept. ] (]) 14:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	Please ]--<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Ummm i think you will find i did comment on content, i answered your question. You asked the mods to define the problem, i simply answered the question in its simplest form.. Ireland is ambiguous which is why all of these problems arise. My comment about you not accepting it wasnt meant in a nasty way, just recognition that you have disagreed with this point in the past. ] (]) 14:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	Ireland is no more or no less ambiguous than the use of IRA and PIRA in Articles and we reached a solution. So your assumption is wrong. Likewise NI is no more or no less ambiguous than IRL. As ras52 has said “Processes may choose to address a wider range of issues than simply the names of the two Ireland articles.” I’m trying to formulate a process that a) clearly defines the problem, and b) provide a solution that attracts the support of the community and no one group of editors. Consensus seems unlikely, and ] does not command much support. The solution is based on what’s good for Misplaced Pages, not to prevent disruption. Now you suggest that Ireland is ambiguous, and that is the only problem? Would you like then to be first to set out to clearly define the problem, ] the point. I’m sure every editor involved would benefit and would provide the moderators the opportunity of entering in on the ground floor so to speak, instead of having to pull together a number of strings in a process they inherited. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Well you proved my point about you not accepting that Ireland is ambiguous, I have told you the problem very clearly. '''Ireland is ambiguous''' That is why there is a dispute about where the articles belong and how to describe the different things in the text of articles across wikipedia. Until you are prepared to accept this i dont see how you are going to be happy with anything that takes place here, because it goes against your core belief. ] (]) 15:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	'''BACK TO COMMENTING ON MASEM'S POLL'''
	Masem, I agree with what you have here. I commend you for doing a very good job with difficult material, but like ], I belleve that Q1 should contain "(c) '''Ireland''' for the nation-state, '''Ireland (disambiguation)''' for the disambiguation page, and another option '''(Island of Ireland''' or '''Ireland (island)''') for the island." I agree with him that the Single Transferrable Vote will solve any dificulty that might arise, and consider that all three options be available in the spirit of fairness. Clearly the '''vote''' will winnow out that option if it is not preferred. -- ]·] 06:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Under Q3 you might add '''the Irish state''' and '''the Irish Republic''' which are terms that have some currency. -- ]·] 06:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	Masem, imo Question 1 needs this option added:
	* d) ''']''': an article explaining the general topic of Ireland, introducing and explaining the current ambiguity and modern day divergence between the island and the present state in prose format, and detailing at top-level in summary style, all conceivable Ireland/Irish topics, such as History, Geography, Politics, Culture etc etc etc, with sensible formatting to fork to both all Ireland sub topics, and other specialist articles (] being the most obvious). This is similar but intentionally not being proposed as identical to, the treatment of the ambiguity of the word China. ''']''': in detail coverage of the ''modern state'' only, with the bare minimum background/history bloat needed to understand the present state, and a logical top level home port for truly ROI only topic forks such as education/post formation history. ''']''': in detail coverage of the geography of the Ireland, and in detail coverage of any and all feasible Ireland (island) topics, such as telecoms cooperation, trade and transport, all Ireland sports, sinking island conspiracy theories etc etc etc, that otherwise in too much detail would unbalance the main ] article. This does give rise to three levels of coverage for some topics like Transport, but invariably, for most, the bottom level is already split between ROI/NI anyway, so it's no big deal.
	This is an option that gets significant support when more thoughtfull people come to the issue, and are allowed to see the wood from the trees, the wood being the options most sensible and plausible to outside observers, the trees being the interminably persistant but ultimately circular reasoning of some of the regulars, who of course can only see one end all option, their 'piss everyone off' solution as they often call it, which bizarrely defines the word "Ireland" as having two totally separate meanings, much like Georgia. If any neutral editor were writing ] from scratch, they would never come to that solution - it is the devil child of years of pov/tendentious disruption, and is the sad end product of argument fatigue, the lowest intellectual common denominator.
	This option would hopefully provide the true dam breaking 'compromise solution' under the ] system to break the inevitable no consensus result between a status quo/simplistic 2 option dab page poll. The best minor advantage from this option is that nobody will ever be able to edit war over whether just ] is a sensible incoming link from other articles: if editors at the incoming article themselves can't decide using the context a more sensible target for an incoming link, it can be just left at Ireland - the reader is not disadvantaged by being presented with a meaningless 2 way dab page, they can *gasp* find out for themselves. ] (]) 18:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:I have not seen that option considered before (or if it was, it got drowned out), but seems like a potential sensible solution. We'd still need ] as part of that. --] (]) 18:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: Is a good option which shouldnt be left out yes. Very good point about editors on other articles not having to argue about which Ireland a link should go to in certain cases where it could be about either or both the island and the state ] (]) 18:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Masem's (moderator) take on the issue ==
	(Note, this is only my take, not the other moderators)
	Per above, it was suggested that a restatement of what this issue is here would be helpful. Let me outline what I see this as:
	Issues at hand:
	* "Ireland" is the most common name applied to both the island and to the 26-county nation that covers most of that island, among other means of the word "Ireland". As such, disambiguation of some type is needed.
	* Based on ] the most common uses of "Ireland" are either the island or the nation, but there's no simple answer to say which of these is ''the'' most common use.
	* There are no appropriately obvious non-disambiguation alternative names that readily work to clear up the issue:
	** For the island, there is no proper name like "Island of Ireland" or "Ireland Island" (along the lines of "Isle of Man" or "Easter Island"); the island is simply called "Ireland". (This doesn't prohibit the phrase "island of Ireland" to be to used to describe it, but that's not a proper noun).
	** For the nation, it is recognized international as "Ireland"; the name "Republic of Ireland" (what the nation is currently at) may be justified but this not appear to be an officially recognized name (the descriptor "republic of Ireland" is correct, but not the proper noun "Republic of Ireland").
	* There are no consistent cases of other political/geography naming conflicts (akin to China, Luxembourg, and Georgia) that can be used as a consistent basis to resolve this.
	* There is a contention with this naming issue with the political tension and issues between the nation and the United Kingdom, and thus a solution should not be sought that will purposely inflame these.
	* Attempts to resolve this by normal consensus means has failed, leading to the need to have ArbCom-appointed moderators.
	As such, for the naming aspects, we have no policy or guidelines to really follow, and past attempts to come to consensus have resulted in little progress.
	Past just the naming of the island and nation articles, there is a need for preciseness in the writing of articles related to the island, the nation, or both. Just as "Ireland" being a common name that without context is difficult to resolve to the island or the nation and prevents an easy solution on renaming, it poses the same problem in article text bodies and the like. Thus, there needs to be a scheme for how to distinguish between these two when they come up in such articles.
	The method of solution, given that consensus has been tried and failed, thus should be as follows:
	* Survey participants for their input as to what they consider the best solutions (this has been done through statements)
	* Evaluate those responses and identify the solutions that have multiple editors that support them (this is, I'd say, presently being done)
	* Prepare a poll or some means to present these solutions to all editors (participants and others to determine the most accepted solutions. (Not done)
	* Implement those solutions (Obviously not done)
	As this has been going on for some time, and has already exhausted three moderators, it is in everyone's best interest to try to resolve this as soon as possible. --] (]) 16:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Are you saying that "Republic of Ireland" should not be used as a proper noun? Because http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1948/en/act/pub/0022/sec0002.html appears to use it as a proper noun, though not as the name of the State.--] (]) 16:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:(ec) Masem, you summation seems accurate, with the exception of "the name "Republic of Ireland" (what the nation is currently at) may be justified but this not appear to be an officially recognized name (the descriptor "republic of Ireland" is correct, but not the proper noun "Republic of Ireland")." - Republic of Ireland is '''''not''''' a name for the state - this is disputed by noone - but it '''''is''''' an official description and is used as a noun, "Republic of Ireland", not "republic of Ireland". ]<sup>]</sup> 16:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Sarak, as noted by Bastun, "republic of Ireland" is the proper descriptor of the nation, but it's only a descriptor, not a proper noun. (counterpoint: "People's Republic of China" is both the descriptor and the proper noun, just as is "United States of America") --] (]) 16:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::I think he was quoting you when he used the lowercase r -- the rest of it seems to support my position. See the original act I linked above for how the Irish Government thinks it should be capitalized.--] (]) 16:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::As I read your link, "Republic of Ireland" is a descriptor, but not a name. That is, to use it as the name of the nation raises several issues because the nation is still named "Ireland". This seems to be the point of contention for using it as the article name, but not as a distinguishing name for article texts when the nation needs to be made clear from the island or other Ireland name. That's why I don't think the present situation is considered to have satisfactory for some since it's using a non-proper name. --] (]) 16:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::: I think use of ] is far better than saying republic of Ireland in article texts or as the name of the article (if im following this debate right). This is why i said the problem in its most simple form without getting bogged down in the actual options we have.
	::::: '''Ireland is ambiguous''' - Thats the whole and only problem. ] (]) 16:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Right, I agree that it's not the name of the country and should not be used as such. However, I disagree with others here about whether it can be used as the name of the article about the country named Ireland -- while it's not my first choice for the article name, I don't consider it absolutely wrong. But I do take your point, and will shut up for the moment.--] (]) 17:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::I'm not saying whether its right or wrong to use "RoI" as the name of the nation, I'm just saying that there are opinions that it's can't be used, and thus it is not a clear "winner" in terms of an easy out from this situation. --] (]) 17:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	Thank you Masem for defining what you see as the problem. I agree also with the point Bastun has made re: Republic of Ireland. For a clear explanation on "Republic of Ireland" see , to understand why it does “purposely inflame” and should be amend accordingly.
	*It is agreed that some type of ] is needed but not between island and State IMO, because that would involve some type of ] and as you say “"Ireland" is the most ] applied to both the island and to the 26-county nation.” You also point out that “For the nation, it is recognized international as ‘Ireland.’” This point is addressed in ] in the section titled and in ] in the section titled .
	*In my opinion the ] is needed between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Though it is not mentioned in your reasoning, you intimate as much in your first point when you say "Ireland" “that covers most of that island.” Now ] dose provide us with the ways and means of dealing with this.
	The options are:
	# disambiguation links – at the top of an article (hatnotes), that refer the reader to other Misplaced Pages articles with similar titles or concepts.
	#disambiguation pages – non-article pages that refer readers to other Misplaced Pages articles.
	We already have both of these opinions on the Ireland Article with a third under discussion:
	*''For the constituent country of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland''.
	*''For other uses, see Ireland (disambiguation)''.
	Now we already have articles on both ] and ] which can and are used were clarity is needed. So the whole Ireland (island) and Ireland (state) options are first off, based on ], devoid of ] and against ]. What we as a community need to do, is identify areas were clarity is needed and formulate wording to address the issues in articles.--<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:on the Northern Ireland piece, yes, that's part of this picture, but it's happily sitting at ] and I don't expect to see anyone contest that. Dabbing to that (either on a disambig page or hatnote) from whatever both the ] page and the nation of Ireland page end up seems to not be at issue. And the factors of making sure that, in an article primarily about the 26-county nation, that it's clear that Northern Ireland is treated differently as the northern part of this 26-county nation. But in the overall scope, it's not a naming issue.
	:But your claim that we'd have to invoke OR for the island and nation - well, not really. We do need to nix choices that are not supported by literature, we suddenly can't call the nation "The Happy Fun Land of Ireland" as the article name; this is why I point out that "RoI" has some support but contested since it is not its official "name" but official "descriptor". But I think to simply this and get us to a solution as fast as possible, we have to come to recognize that this process will takes months to resolve if we spend the time arguing whether the island or the nation is the most common implication when someone says "Ireland" and that to jump to the logical conclusion, it's pretty much impossible for us to tell. Thus, we should use a simple poll to deal with that factor once and for; it's the last option we have barring having '''one''' person make a decision for everyone else. (note, ArbCom will not make this decision for you, nor us moderators). --] (]) 18:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: We need to becareful, we are getting bogged down in the debate again. I support a poll aslong as it allows us to rank or select several options rather than just one which is going to lead to no consensus. Although i disagree with the method of having 3 short questions as i mentioned above. There seems to be some people here who dont want a poll, perhaps they should be encouraged to state how they think it should be worked out so everyones ideas are heard before starting or sorting out a poll. ] (]) 18:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	Masem I was simply reasoning out what you yourself said, "Ireland" is the most common name applied to both the island and to the 26-county nation" and "the nation… is recognized internationally as "Ireland." Is this disputed? Ireland is the ] of both the island and the State. Why is there a need to differentiate? On the RoI / Ireland , Europe state quite clearly “ now that is very clear an unambiguous. Now editors can all agree on that? I would again point out this point is addressed in ] in the section titled , which say "Misplaced Pages determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what ] in English call the subject." --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 19:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Good lord, there is an island called Ireland and a country called Ireland, both have the same common name there for they have to be located somewhere, one isnt going to be on its common name. You have to make the case that the state belongs on the common name, not simply dismiss the fact its ambiguous which everyone else accepts. ] (]) 19:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	Please read both the comments by Masem and myself, "Ireland" is the most common name applied to both the island and to the 26-county nation" and "the nation… is recognized internationally as "Ireland." The question I ask was why is there a need to differentiate? This point is addressed by ] in the section titled which says "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with ''a reasonable minimum'' of ambiguity." It also says "The names of Misplaced Pages articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists." --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 19:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	: There is plenty of evidence to show that the Island of Ireland is more recognized than the Republic of Ireland which only came about in the 20th century which is why the island should take priority over the state as happens in the case of China and Taiwan. Anyway we are going round in circles and this is meant to be deciding about the process. ] (]) 20:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Let's avoid making statements that can't be backed up - it just paints bulls eyes on statements. --] (]) 20:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	: There is a clear need to differentiate the content the deals with the island and the content that deals with the nation. The two pages are only two pages out of any other possible "Ireland" topic, save for a disambiguation page, which should be at ], but both cannot co-exist at that same page because there is a very defining line between that content. They are two separate articles and thus the goal here is to find two separate article titles here for them. --] (]) 20:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::I agree Masem, there is a need to differentiate in a number of contexts - and I suppose this is where the disagreements leading to edit warring will begin (have begun). For example, in an innocent article on, say, drinking, a sentence might read "The best Guinness is found in the capital of Ireland, Dublin". In another article on cycling, a sentence might read "cycled from Belfast, capital of Northern Ireland non-stop to Dublin, capital of ????". The second example needs disambiguation because it is in the context of Northern Ireland, and it might be too easy to confuse using the term "Ireland" with the island. I believe many editors accept that there are occasions where disambiguation is required. --] (]) 20:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	It is concerning that a moderator is making statements like ''the descriptor "republic of Ireland" is correct, but not the proper noun "Republic of Ireland"''. I am also concerned about the use of the term "nation" rather than state, since this is ambiguous. The 26-county constitution defines the "nation" as the entire island. ] (]) 20:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:First, I'm using "nation" but not insisting that is ultimately the word we use to avoid confusion between "country" and "county"; I have no desired outcome of this moderation save to see it to its end. As for the "Republic of Ireland", I've looked at all the arguments, and it is clear that "the Republic of Ireland" is the correct description but not the correct name of the country. Does that mean that ] should not be a choice? No, that's why I put it as a poll option; I'm only noting, per the request by some to explain what I see this case to be, as part of the issue - "RoI" is not the proper name of the nation which lead some to suggest the nation needs to be at a different article title; in other words, the alternative name for the nation in light of the need to disambiguate is not simply solved by called it "RoI". --] (]) 20:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: If an reader types in Germany are they looking for the state or the country, so does that mean we need to have disambaguation there? <strong>]</strong>] 21:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: Is there a difference between Germany the country and Germany the state? I don't see anything that says there is - "country" and "state" and "nation" are terms that are used synonymously with each other in this discussion. Nor is there a difference between Ireland the country and Ireland the state (presuming we're not talking Irish Free State here, but the modern, present-day governed nation).--] (]) 21:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::The Ireland that is not a state is commonly called a country in the same way that England and Scotland are commonly called countries. Country, state and nation are largely synonymous with each other but that does not mean that they are the same thing. Or that the word "country", like "Ireland", can't have more than one definition. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 09:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	Just a be of clarity, "The 26-county constitution defines the "nation" as the entire island." Not true, please read the Constitution. Thank you Dunc, you make the point very well. If there is a clear need to differentiate the content that deals with the country and the content that deals with the State, it must be true then of all countries and States. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 21:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Maybe I'm confused, but I don't see a difference between "the state of Ireland" and "the country of Ireland" - from everything I can read, they seem to be the same, speaking to the 26-county nation. But if there is a difference, please explain this. --] (]) 21:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I don't think there is. The country and the sovereign state are the same thing. I don't think its NPOV to say otherwise.] 21:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: MITH and Masem are right, What is this nonsense about Germany? There is a place called Germany it can be described as a nation, a state, or a country... its all the same thing. That is not the same situation as Ireland where there is an ISLAND called Ireland and a (country/nation/state) called Ireland. I cant believe we go over and over this nonsense all the time. what a joke ] (]) 21:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	BritishWatcher please treat the contributions of editors with the same ]. Now there is a place called Germany it can be described as a nation, a state, or a country... its all the same thing. Likewise, Ireland is the name of as a nation, a state, or a country... its all the same thing. No difference! So why have separate articles on Ireland (State) and Ireland (country) it makes no sense. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 22:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Since when was there ever the recommendation to have Ireland (state) and Ireland (country)?] 22:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Just to clarify: There's 2 entities called '''Ireland'''. One is a country/state etc, within the other which is an island. An island which includes a part of the UK (i.e. ]. -- ] (]) 22:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	No GoodDay, there is not. Ireland the country and Ireland the State and Ireland the island are all the same thing. There is an article on ]. MitH see --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 22:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:I think you're misreading the poll Domer. Ireland the country and Ireland the island are not the same thing. GoodDay is completely right. Do you deny that there is another country (the UK) on the island of Ireland?] 22:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Excellent summary, Masem, except (as mentioned above) where you say that "the descriptor "republic of Ireland" is correct, but not the proper noun 'Republic of Ireland'". ''Republic of Ireland'', whether it is the official name or not (we all know that it isn't), is invariable used as a name (not merely a description) and the 'r' of 'republic' is ''always'' captialised. See . --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 22:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	MitH, Ireland the country and Ireland the island are the same thing. There is the state of Northern Ireland on the island of Ireland. Are you saying that we need disambiguation between Northern Ireland and Ireland? Is the difference not obvious? Is this on the top of the article not enough ''For the constituent country of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland''? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 22:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:No they're not. 26 counties are part of the sovereign state (FACT!), while there are 32 counties on the island (FACT!). Therefore the island and the sovereign state are not the same. I can't believe you're arguing that! I am not saying disambiguation is necessary between Northern Ireland and Ireland because NI is a constituent part of the UK while Ireland is a sovereign country or an island depending on context. There is no confusion between NI and IRL.] 22:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	26 counties are part of the sovereign state Ireland, while there are 32 counties on the island 6 counties are in Northern Ireland. The island and the sovereign state are the same depending on context. Therefore disambiguation is obvious, Ireland / Northern Ireland depending on context. Is this on the top of the ] article not enough ''For the constituent country of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland''? Please try to remain calm. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 23:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	: We should all of had to agree to certain core principles before being allowed to contribute here. One of them should of been accepting the undisputed fact that there is an Island called Ireland and a country called Ireland which are two different things making the term Ireland ambiguous. Some people sadly just can not accept fact ] (]) 23:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	:"The island and the sovereign state are the same depending on context." Um, no? The state of Ireland is 26 counties. The state of Ireland, in a constitutional referendum passed by an overwhelming majority of the population, dropped it's territorial claim on the other 6 counties. If you are arguing differently, please provide ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I find myself in agreement with BritishWatcher. In terms of the Misplaced Pages, it is clear that a typical solution to such ambiguous situations is for the dab page to be named '''Ireland'''. -- ]·] 06:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	We have certain core principles, they are ], ] and ] and editors must accept them before being allowed to contribute here. Please read what the Irish government see as . The Irish government accepted that unification would only come through "the consent" of the people in both jurisdictions in the island. Now BritishWatcher you are correct there is an Island called Ireland and a country called Ireland. As Masem has pointed out "Ireland" is the most common name applied to both the island and to the 26-county nation" and "the nation… is recognized internationally as "Ireland." I'm encouraged that both editors are now suggesting we use ] to support our opinions, and this should be welcomed and seen as progress. Could editors now provide ] to support their view that "Ireland" in the English speeking world is considered ambiguous. Once again I would ask editors is this ] on the top of the ] article not enough ''For the constituent country of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland''? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 07:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:"...the undisputed fact that there is an Island called Ireland and a country called Ireland which are two different things making the term Ireland ambiguous." There are two 'countries' called Ireland. One is an internationally recognized state (sometimes called the Republic of Ireland). The other is a traditional country in Europe.
	:"Could editors now provide ] to support their view that ''Ireland'' in the English speeking world is considered ambiguous." . --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 09:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	There are two 'countries' called Ireland? No, there is only one and that's an internationally recognized state. Thanks for the ref, but it does not support your comments. Thanks again, --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 09:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:I suggest you create an article, then, ], where you can outline the differences between the Irish nation and the Irish state, with special reference to ]. Meanwhile, this project is concerned with resolving the ongoing naming disputes between the article pages for two distinct entities, the state, and the island, which are both named Ireland. That ambiguity therefore exists is self-evident, and does not require a reference. You seem to be the only person who disputes this or who claims that there is no ambiguity, on any of the current or previous debates. ]<sup>]</sup> 09:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:{{ec}} There is only one that is an internationally recognised state. There are many . "A state" is just one of them. The "Ireland" that is not a state fits several definitions of a "country" e.g. "the territory of a nation", "the land of one's birth or citizenship", "any considerable territory demarcated by topographical conditions, by a distinctive population, etc." In the same way, England and Scotland are countries, but they are not states. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 10:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	I thought we were going to support our comments with ] and not just offer opinions. Bastun articles ] which are replaced with the principle of "consent" in the Irish Constitution, so I can't see the point you are trying to make, but you are using Diff's and that is to be welcome. Now could one of you please provide a link to were there was agreement that there is two islands called Ireland. WE all agree then that there is only one Irish State that is an internationally recognised state. Rannpháirtí anaithnid you appear to be going off in the wrong direction, we don't need a defination of the words, we need a sourced reference saying that there is two islands called Ireland or Ireland is ambiguous according to...? But thanks again for starting to use references very positive efforts. Once again I would ask editors is this ] on the top of the ] article not enough ''For the constituent country of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland''? Thaks --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 13:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Sorry, Domer, you are misrepresenting what people are saying and the issue as a whole. I can no longer ] where you are concerned on this issue. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	Sorry Bastun, if you feel I have misrepresenting what people are saying please show me and I'll correct it stright away. Could I ask you is this ] on the top of the ] article not enough ''For the constituent country of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland''? Just so we can move on from it. If it is not could you explain why? Thanks again, and sorry if there is any misunderstanding, --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 13:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:"...there is two islands called Ireland..." Well, actually, yes. There is ] also, but I don't think that's what you mean.
	:"...or Ireland is ambiguous according to..." Why do we need a reference to say that Ireland is "ambiguous"? People are saying that there are two "Irelands" - there is a state of that name and an island (or two!) of that name. Do you disagree? --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 14:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Domer we are not talking about disambiguation between the country Ireland and Northern Ireland. We are talking about the fact there is an Island called Ireland and a state called Ireland, two different things which im sure i saw you accept a little while ago above for the first time. Because the same name is given to two different things its ambiguous. ] (]) 14:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I think what Domer48 is arguing is that a statement that "there are two things called Ireland" can be referenced with secondary source (e.g. the dictionary I cited above). And that while a statement that "the word Ireland is ambiguous" is a logically restatement of the first statement, you will not find a source that says (literally), "The word Ireland is ambiguous". It's a game. Domer48 is a troll. I've fed him a little because it's fun, but let's leave it now. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 14:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	Rannpháirtí anaithnid you ask why do we need a reference to say that Ireland is "ambiguous"? Because we rely on what's known as ], a core policy of wiki. A group of editors just agreeing on something with any ] is not enough. Editors "are saying that there are two "Irelands" - there is a state of that name and an island (or two!)" I'm asking the editors to support this view with a reference per ]. Now even Masem says that "country" and "state" and "nation" are terms that are used synonymously with each other in this discussion. Nor is there a difference between Ireland the country and Ireland the state. Some editors say there is, so provide sources? Hope that helps, --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Rannpháirtí anaithnid I ignored you ] in the hope that you remove the comment, please do. I've been more than civil. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Domer48, I'm sorry but please observe ]: "The policies that apply to articles apply also (if not to the same extent) to talk pages, including Misplaced Pages's ], ] and ] policies" Per ], we will need a verifiable source for your statement that 'we need a reference to say that Ireland is "ambiguous"'. Remember when supplying one that, per ], ]. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 14:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	'''STOP'''.
	We're going to be here forever if editors keep insisting on reiterating over minor points and trying to rule-broker the situation.
	It is very clear (without a need for sources) that two topics have nearly equal claim as the "most common English use" of the word "Ireland" - the island and the 26-county nation. As to which has the "most", we'd be here forever trying to justify some metric that swings one way or another. The core of this dispute needs to start at the fact that it is impossible to assert that the island or the nation is the most common use of the word "Ireland", so the resolution is to find some other means to determine that.
	It is also very clear that ''as of this moment'' there exists only one nation/state/country of Ireland, that being the 26-county one, regardless of what other connotations that those words may mean personally (as in one's homeland) to people or to Ireland's past history. Under what name that that country resides at is the issue of contention. Or, to be clearer: there are two countries on the island of Ireland: the country/nation/state of Ireland (consisting of 26 counties) and a portion of the United Kingdom called Northern Ireland. None of these means are synonymous with each other. Again, that's fact, not an opinion, but a fact nevertheless that we need to build from, not argue indefinitely.
	Now is not the time to be bickering over details; everyone had their chance to argue their preferred choice during the Statement phase; now is the time to progress forward and figure out how we are going to figure out the preferred solution. --] (]) 15:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:It's so easy. Allow the disambiguation page to be called '''Ireland'''. Then have the country & island named '''Ireland (state/country/republic)''' & '''Ireland (island)'''. ] (]) 15:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:I agree GoodDay. That is the obvious thing to do and probably does have consensus, however considering how long this has been going on the obvious thing to do is not going to happen straight away.] 15:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::This is certainly one of the options on the table - but there is at least one more, so it should be considered when this is put to a final poll/vote/whatever. --] (]) 15:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	MASEM I agree with a number of the points you have made such as “‘''Ireland’ is the most common name applied to both the island and to the 26-county nation that covers most of that island''” and that “''for the nation, it is recognized international as ‘Ireland''.’” There can be no argument there, however supporting references should be applied. I disagree however when you say that on “''the naming aspects, we have no policy or guidelines to really follow''." We do, and it was provided by ] under the title titled .
	I also disagree when you say “ ''claim that we'd have to invoke OR for the island and nation - well, not really''.” The point I would make is one you yourself made, “''there's no simple answer to say which of these is the most common use''.” As you pointed out above “‘''Ireland’ is the most common name applied to both the island and to the 26-county nation that covers most of that island''” and that “''for the nation, it is recognized international as ‘Ireland.''’” In the absence of supporting references ] is the only option, which you are willing to accept by saying “''we do need to nix choices that are not supported by literature.''” You are also willing to in the absence of sources to “''use a simple poll to deal with that factor once and for''” in order to find “''a solution as fast as possible.''” This is not “''the last option we have,''” because there is one wiki option which has never been used. That is to ask editors to provide references to support the view that we need to make a distinction between “''which of these is the most common use…either the island or the nation''.” Who else in the international community supports the need for this distinction.
	You go on then to say that “''both cannot co-exist at that same page because there is a very defining line between that content. They are two separate articles and thus the goal here is to find two separate article titles here for them''.” However you contradict this by saying “''I don't see anything that says there is - "country" and "state" and "nation" are terms that are used synonymously with each other in this discussion. Nor is there a difference between Ireland the country and Ireland the state''” But then say you have “''no desired outcome of this moderation save to see it to its end.''” Based on this I do understand when you say “''Maybe I'm confused, but I don't see a difference between "the state of Ireland" and "the country of Ireland - from everything I can read, they seem to be the same, speaking to the 26-county nation. But if there is a difference, please explain this.''” Your final point to me is the most important, because that is exactly the question I’ve been trying to have addressed, without any look.
	Your summing up under the “stop” title “I''t is very clear (without a need for sources) that two topics have nearly equal claim as the "most common English use" of the word "Ireland" - the island and the 26-county nation.''” I would suggest they have an identical claim, and to try to differentiate between the two is futile, as you say, the “''terms that are used synonymously with each other''” and that there is no “''difference between Ireland the country and Ireland the state.''” It is not for us to “''determine''” this at all because it is “''very clear that as of this moment there exists only one nation/state/country of Ireland, that being the 26-county one''.” It is obvious what the article title should be based on your observation, “''it is recognized international as ‘Ireland.’''” On the island of Ireland you have “Ireland” and “Northern Ireland” and “''none of these are synonymous with each other. Again, that's fact, not an opinion, but a fact nevertheless that we need to build from, not argue indefinitely.''”
	Your summary is very welcome, and I’d personally like to thank you for the effort and time you have put in. I may disagree with you on some points but in general you have tried to be pragmatic. I a little disappointed that the only response to your detailed comments was for editors to jump straight in with their preferred options. I am trying to formulate a proposal, but find it difficult to nail the problem editors have down. If they at least engaged with me and addressed simple straight forward questions it would help a lot. The incivility and stonewalling while it is something I’m used too, I’d like to think we could all move on in a more positive and productive spirit. Thanks --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Refusal to accept that "Ireland" is ambiguous ==
	We are never going to resolve this matter if certain methods are used by some editors to waste time. What exactly are we all expected to do when some people refuse to even accept the fact Ireland is ambiguous. If someone cant accept this very simple fact which most people understand, how are they going to accept the outcome of this dispute? We are just going to go round and round in circles if this continues. ] (]) 15:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Individuals don't outweigh consensus. Misplaced Pages is not interested in "the truth", it is interested in consensus, which is built and tested using 3rd party quality references. Anybody editing against consensus is edit warring and disruptive, and will be blocked.
	:So if an individual is arguing that "Ireland" is not ambiguous, and a number of other editors can point to references that it is ambiguous, then that individual can still hold their personal opinion, but cannot edit disruptively against consensus. This is "how are they going to accept the outcome of this dispute?". --] (]) 15:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: The consensus is that Ireland is ambiguous, perhaps its for Domer to provide sources which say otherwise?? Domer is intitled to his opinion on what Ireland is or isnt, but at the moment the above debate is just going round and round in circles and disrupting us from resolving this dispute. ] (]) 15:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: Just for the record in the statement process i made the following post ]. 14 people agreed with the points including yourself, nobody disagreed. So clearly the overwhelming consensus of the people involved here is that Ireland is ambiguous. ] (]) 15:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Thank you for that HighKing, most helpful. To illustrate the point I’ll use this analogy: If ten editors all agree that the moon is made of cheese but one editor disagrees, the consensus then is that the moon is in fact made of cheese. However, to protect itself from such a situation Wiki has a number of safeguards. One of which is ]. What this does is it asks editors to provide references to support their opinion. So the sole editor who disagrees with this consensus, provides referenced sources which are both ] and ] to support their opinion that the moon is in fact not made of cheese. In this situation, consensus does not override policy. Now a group of editors have said they have a consensus that the term “Ireland” is ambiguous. I asked them to point me to where this consensus emerged and they did not. I asked them to support their view that Ireland was ambiguous and they have not. I asked for supporting references to support their view and they have not. In the spirit of compromise, and in a reasonable attempt to move forward, if I provide supporting references which illustrate that “Ireland” is not ambiguous, will they likewise provide which say that it is. Thanks --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 16:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Actually no. The primary policy is consensus and overrules all others - ] is just a way of helping people to make a decision. --] (]) 19:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Domer, look at it this way: if someone emigrated from ] before 1860, they came from Ireland, but not from the State called Ireland. Same thing if they came from Belfast. Hence, there's an ambiguity that needs to be addressed in some form.--] (]) 16:55, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Domer, ''Ireland'' is ambiguous because it can mean more than one thing. I can't believe you're actually arguing against that. ] 17:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	Would any of you now like to comment on my post? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Well domer provide us with the evidence that Ireland is not ambiguous, if you make a good case and we fail to provide references, you win ok? ] (]) 18:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Thanks for that BritishWatcher, now all we need is for the editors involved to all sign up to this process and we can really move thing forward. Editors provide sources which are both ] and ] which support the contention that “Ireland” the country and State is ambiguous, and editors who don’t support this view do the same. Shall we use the same process as the Statements before only this time we address ourselves to one question, no comment or opinion just a fact based process. Agreed or would you like to suggest an alternative system for this process? We can all abide by this because it would be supported by the community and our policies. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: Im not asking for us to set up some form of process, all im asking u to do is provide the sources which go against the current consensus that Ireland is ambiguous. If u show us the evidence which proves your case, then we will of resolved the above dispute about if its ambiguous or not. ] (]) 18:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::I let editors judge for themselves what you attitude to supporting your views are with ]. Disappointing! --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 18:49, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::: As far as i can tell from the comments here and in previous debates there is consensus that Ireland is ambiguous. If you disagree it is you that must provide verifiable sources to correct us, not the other way around. Im sorry but i dont take this matter very seriously because its the oddest position anyone on here has taken. Even people who support the country being at ] accept the term is still ambiguous. ] (]) 18:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Domer, if you accept that the island is called ''Ireland'' and the state is called ''Ireland'', then you automatically accept that ''"Ireland"'' is ambiguous. I can't believe we're having this debate. ] 19:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Likewise if Germany is the name of the country, and the State is call Germany, then base on your logic you automatically accept that ''"Germany"'' is ambiguous. So when we say Germany, are we talking about the country or the State. That is reasoning and logic you are suggesting. Now you say ''Ireland'' is ambiguous, provide a reference to support it. Now here is one for you: Today, the ] note that the names of the ] must always be written and abbreviated according to the rules and that it states that "'''''Do not use''' ‘Republic of Ireland’ nor ‘Irish Republic''’ when referring to the Ireland. <ref></ref><ref>''Constitutional Law of 15 EU Member States'' (edition 6), L. Prakke, C. A. J. M. Kortmann, Hans van den Brandhof, J. C. E. van den Brandhof, Kluwer, 2004, ISBN 9013012558, Pg.430</ref> So can you explain to me why based on this source which is very clear and unambiguous the article at ] is about the Irish State? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 19:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Um, because we're not a European Institution?--] (]) 19:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Now I've provide a source, now provide one to challange it. The EU is made up of 27 countries and this is called a ], so "Um, because we're not a European Institution" is not a source. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 19:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Nothing there to challenge. Try again.--] (]) 19:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::: You have not provided any source that says Ireland is not ambiguous. The fact that the European Union must only use the term Ireland doesnt mean its not ambiguous, the source certainly doesnt back up your claim. Also on that basis we have to rename alot of[REDACTED] articles because they are not all at where the United Nations would call them. The fact they feel the need to point out to their staff NOT to use Republic of Ireland goes to show the state is known by that term by many. ] (]) 19:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Now Superfopp, I've aske a question could you care to comment? SarekOfVulcan is incapable of answering and BritishWatcher is simply ignoring the question. BritishWatcher we have moved on and this is a different subject, you were unwilling to provide any sources! --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 19:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Oh, I'm quite capable of answering, but any substantial answer would probably get me a CIV/NPA block.--] (]) 19:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::So you are unwilling to provide a source, not that you can't provide one OK! --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 19:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	The fact that this project even exists is due to the fact there's ambiguity. In fact, it's part of the ] findings of fact. Thus, I'm going to say here that any attempts to override this statement will be seen as hampering this process, and could result in administrative action if it continues. --] (]) 19:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Masem you've override this statement a number of times yourself, you started the whole ? It also says that "article titles conform with the requirement of maintaining a ]." I've provided a source that states "'''''Do not use''' ‘Republic of Ireland’ nor ‘Irish Republic''’ when referring to the Ireland. I provided a whole host of sources on which say it is POV to use RoI for the Irish State and why. Now lets address the RoI being listed in the suggestions as a possible location for the Article on the Irish State. We can cite ] findings of fact and at least get that sorted as quick as possible. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 20:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Quoting from the European Interinstitutional whatchamacallit is a reliable source for how European institutions must refer to Ireland, but it has absolutely no bearing on the name of the article here.--] (]) 20:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::That's not what I'm warning about: the point I'm making is that arguing that there '''isn't''' any ambiguity between the island and the country name unless someone can provide sources is going completely against the Arbcom-stated finding of fact and the majority of people involved here, and pretty much common sense. Trying to argue against that fact, as you have stated above several times above, is a dead end and is not beneficial for any forward progress. --] (]) 20:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::As someone above mentioned, if there was ''no ambiguaty''? there'd be no Irish naming disputes. ] (]) 20:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Masem are you saying that if I provide sources that illustrated that there is no ambiguity between the island and the country that's ok? I'd just like to know so I don't over step the mark. On the Arbcom-stated finding of fact, could you point me to the discussion were this consensus was reached, as I'd like to review the references on which the findings were reached, that would be really helpful. Could you possibly address the issue of RoI I mentioned above with regard to the Arbcom-stated finding of fact re:"article titles conform with the requirement of maintaining a ]." Thanks in advance, --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 20:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Of course there are sources, calling the island '''Ireland''' & calling the country '''Ireland'''. But, it's impossible to name both articles the same. ] (]) 20:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::If you think you have sources that say that there's absolutely no ambiguity between the island and country, it would be interesting to provide them, because everything else points in the opposite direction. As for the "consensus" about the FoF from ArbCom - well, you'd have to review the entire case and try to determine how ArbCom came to that decision, but it wasn't decided by the usual "consensus" approach. As for "RoI" and NPOV, as I've tried to outline, using "Republic of Ireland" as a name is inappropriate, but it ''is'' appropriate as a descriptor, and it may be appropriate to use that descriptor as the article name for the country if that's what is agreed to and that would not be a POV naming issue if were to end up being the case. If I were judge where consensus was for using it now, I'd have to say it likely won't be the case, but that's not to prevent it from being a valid option. --] (]) 21:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::I need clarification: Is a suggestion being made, that both articles ] ''and'' ], shoul be named '''Ireland'''? Or both articles should be ''merged'' under the title '''Ireland'''? ] (]) 21:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Thanks Masem re: sources, I'll provide them. On the FoF from ArbCom I have reviewed the entire case and can't find anything. There is a lot of what we had here, such as "it is because I said so" type stuff but nothing else. Rock was the only one to provide anything close to a reference, three of them but nothing else, and they did not support the view. Could ArbCom be asked to point me in the right direction in case I missed it? On RoI, I've provided, like I said a whole host of sources which according to ] would rule out it's use for the Country / State. The sources illustrate that it is POV, so how could it possibly be agreed to and that would not be a POV naming issue? Why, based on all the sources I've provided can it not just be said ''this is not a valid option'', and cite Arbcom-stated finding of fact re:"article titles conform with the requirement of maintaining a ]. In addition, we also have the directive from ArbCom Re: ]. Can the mod's not cite policy, and direct the discussion accordingly. Again on ArbCom, we have this here on . How does this square with this and the edit summary. Which is the exact same thing as . Why should I be the only one to have to put up with this? --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 21:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::@Domer, just referring back to the point earlier. Consensus is the primary and foremost policy and trumps all others. That's Misplaced Pages. Consensus here is that "Ireland" is ambiguous. The best you can hope for is to open a poll to retest established consensus. But, it would be a trivial matter to show that "Ireland" is ambiguous. Find one reference that uses "Ireland" to mean the state. Find another unrelated reference that uses "Ireland" to refer to the island. And for icing, find a reference that uses both terms to mean different things. Then test consensus on the issue. My bet is a ] result for the existing consensus. --] (]) 21:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::: No it isn't. It isn't even one of the ]. Neutral Point of View, for instance, trumps consensus in the hierarchy. So if there is a consensus of on a page that the earth is flat, policy doesn't endorse it. ] (<small>]</small>) 04:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::For example, here is an ambiguous example --] (]) 21:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Asking for sources to prove that ''Ireland'' means more than one thing is like asking for sources to prove the sky is blue. Surely, Domer, you can understand why Rannpháirtí anaithnid didn't take you seriously before. ] 21:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::My head is still spinning. Is Domer suggesting the RoI article be ''gutted out'' & it's content be merged with the ]? -- ] (]) 21:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::: lol GoodDay, its safer to think about something else. ] (]) 21:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	Hi HighKing, consensus is not the primary and foremost policy that trumps all others. Please read ], consensus is not simple agreement; a handful of editors agreeing on something does not constitute a consensus. ''Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale''. Consensus is not immutable. ''Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding'', and one must realize that such changes are often reasonable. Thus, "according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales for making or reverting an edit, or for accepting or rejecting other forms of proposal or action. ''Consensus decisions in specific cases do not automatically override consensus on a wider scale – for instance, a local debate on a WikiProject does not override the larger consensus behind a policy or guideline''. ''To ensure transparency, consensus cannot be formed except on Misplaced Pages discussion pages''. In ''determining consensus, consider the strength and quality of the arguments'', including the evolution of final positions, the objections of those who disagree, and existing documentation in the project namespace if available. Minority opinions typically reflect genuine concerns, and their (strict) logic may outweigh the "logic" (point of view) of the majority. Polls are structured discussions, not votes. Opinion has more weight when you provide a rationale during a poll, not just a vote. Convince others of your views, and give them a chance to convince you. Editors can easily create the appearance of a changing consensus by "forum shopping": asking again and hoping that a different and more sympathetic group of people discusses the issue. This is a poor example of changing consensus, and is antithetical to the way that Misplaced Pages works. Misplaced Pages does not base its decisions on the number of people who show up and vote; we work on a system of good reasons. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 22:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::You are misinterpreting what I said. Consensus trumps everything else because it essentially evaluates references and arguments (within policy, ahem). If consensus decides that a poor reference is good enough, then it is. You are trying to put your point across based on the weight of your argument, but there is an equal weighted argument opposing your view, and consensus is against you. It is unlikely to change. --] (]) 09:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	HighKing your example shows an incorrect use of the term Republic, that's all it does not support the suggestion that it's ambiguous. However here in , we see Ireland being used as a "geographical name" and the name of the country. So 27 countries see nothing ambiguous about Ireland, but it is only on wiki and no where else is this discussion needed. I hope that answers both your comments above. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 22:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Despite the fact you are fully aware of this reference, Domer, and I'm sure we have had this discussion before, I'll have another go at explaining why the source clearly acknowledges the ambiguity.
	* ''"Ireland is the name of an island in the North Atlantic. Ireland is also the name of a state, comprising roughly three‐quarters of that island"'' Mary E. Daly, . ''Journal of British Studies'' 46 (January 2007): 72–90.
	: Now, lets consider that statement carefully and - to simplify things - I'm going to reduce it to a logic statement.
	* ''Ireland is the name of an island in the North Atlantic.''
	* ''Ireland is also the name of a state, comprising roughly three‐quarters of that island''
	: Taking those two statements together under your preferred interpretation, we are left with: Ireland = 3/4 of Ireland
	: Now it doesn't take a genius to work out that ''Ireland'' in that above equation '''cannot''' refer to the same thing (unless Ireland = 0, and if that is the case it does not exist and all our problems are solved!) Therefore the only way that equation can be resolved, and thus the only reasonable way one could interpret Mary E. Daly's statement, is that ''Ireland'' is an ]. If we accept that our equation now makes sense: Ireland<sub>(state)</sub> = 3/4 of Ireland<sub>(island)</sub>
	So we now have a clearly reliable source that now tells us that ''Ireland'' can relate to two different things (another clue is in Daly's use of the word ''also'', which means ''in addition to''). Since this supports the current situation which has been stable for years - we have distinct articles on the different things - the onus of on you, Domer, to provide a source that counters it. Its not good enough to give a source telling us that ''Ireland'' is the name of the state according to X,Y,Z; we already know that. Provide us with a source that tells us, explicitly, the state and the island are the same thing. ]<font color="black">e</font>] 02:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	'''Rock:''' Per '''MASEM''' above, "arguing that there isn't any ambiguity between the island and the country...is going completely against the Arbcom-stated finding of fact." If MASEM says I can respond, I will. You could possibly help, if you provide both MASEM and myself a link to the discussion were consensus was reached on this issue, and on which ArbCom based their FoF, both of us are unable to locate it. A list of referenced sources which supported this consensus from the discussions would also be useful. '''HighKing''' raised the issue of consensus above and Per ] ''To ensure transparency, consensus cannot be formed except on Misplaced Pages discussion pages.'' If your open minded and wish to be I'm sure I can provide a reasonable responce free of ]. I'll highlight editors names I'm addressing and responding to, since one can never get a responce with editors jumping in and the question being buried. --<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 10:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Proposal for form of ] ==
	I have a proposal: if '''and only if''' it is determined that article about the 26-county State should have a name of the form "Ireland (blah)", it should be "Ireland (state)", as the Irish constitution refers to it by that term and no other state I can think of has a claim to that term. Anybody currently discussing actually disagree with this? (And if you want "Ireland" or "Republic of Ireland", just hush for now, that's not the question.)--] (]) 15:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	: I dont oppose (state) but because we have ] i can understand alot of peoples concerns about using that term which could lead to confusion. ] (]) 16:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: I understand as well, but WP should not be in the business of catering to people who can't read any further than the title... --] (]) 16:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::No disagreement here. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Yes, I would prefer (state) over (country)/(nation). ] 17:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::I'd prefer Ireland (independent state) - it's clearer for those lazy readers who don't get beyond the title page. ] (]) 17:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Yeah, but what about lazy editors? :-) Personally, I prefer short and sweet -- unless there's a dependent state of Ireland, that wording seems a bit much.--] (]) 17:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::: Agreed that title is too long. On if theres a dependent state of Ireland, no comment. :) ] (]) 17:55, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::::: See ]. (I'm not sure whether it should be used on you for that line, or me for giving you the opening.)--] (]) 18:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::: lol we can share the trout if you want. :) ] (]) 18:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Ireland (state) has long been the clear choice. I suggest you get a poll going on the point though. Regards. ] (]) 21:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	Ireland (Free State) is what it is known by in the country itself, north and south. --] (]) 23:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:North and South Unionist ] maybe. In the real NPOV world, it's almost certainly not.] 23:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	So you do know what ] refers to then...sort of proves my point.--] (]) 00:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	See for Irish Free State. --] (]) 00:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	==Ochón is ochón ó==
	I just thought I would take a moment here to weep a bit. -- ]·] 16:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	== Rannpháirtí anaithnid's voting proposal ==
	Like many people, I think, I would like to see this process end. IMHO there is no likelihood of discussion ending on this page. I think a binding vote is the only possibility (as was used to in the case of ]). This vote should take place on a subpage of ] and be widely publicised.
	In the case of Danzig/Gdansk, there were only two choices so a straight vote could determine the most preferred choice. In the case of Ireland/Republic of Ireland, there are many possible outcomes. I've taken a look at Masem's proposal above, but I don't see how it will lead to a genuinely preferred decision (or even how, at the end of, an indisputably conclusive answer could be drawn). As a consequence, I think a vote by ] is the way to go. (PRSTV was recommended above by ras52 too.)
	(For those unfamiliar with PRSTV, it is the electoral system used in Ireland. It's purpose is to determine the most preferred - not just the most popular - among multiple options. I've written ] with an example.)
	I have prepared ]. The options I think are most likely are:
	* Ireland / Republic of Ireland (status quo)
	* Ireland as dab page → Ireland (island) / Ireland (state)
	* Ireland / Ireland (island)
	* Ireland / Ireland (state)
	These can, of course, be added to or taken away from before a vote is run, but - obviously - once the vote is opened we cannot changed the options on the ballot.
	I think the vote should be run over the course of one month. If we get broad agreement, why not start running the vote within next week? --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 22:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Intriguing, you may have given me reason to ''rejoin'' the Ireland naming discussion 'fully', again. ] (]) 22:55, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Excellent proposal, but I disagree with having the arguments written beneath each option. ] 23:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Yes, nice proposal but having the arguments beside them is a bad idea. Just the options should be there.] 23:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::OK, I'll take the arguments out. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 23:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::Update: Done. I've removed the "arguments" from beneath the possible choices. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 23:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Note that I would be explicit about what content is ending up where (possibly a table format). There's also technically a 5th option, being Dab + Ireland (island) and Republic of Ireland. I see no problem with this format to answer the basic naming question and leaving the other questions (what to distinguish Ireland (state) in article text)) --] (]) 23:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::Yes I think the options should be a bit more explicit. I propose it be worded like this:
	::A) the island at ___ / the state at ___ / disambiguation at ___
	::etc etc
	::] 23:55, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: If we went ahead with a vote just on the article name itself, what is going to happen about the other concerns raised like how it is mentioned in text. We need this resolved at the same time, there cant be a gap between the basic vote on where articles belong resulting in the articles being moved followed by weeks of debate about how to handle the new articles in text, during which we will see some editors going around removing ] from where there is a clear need to use the term to avoid confusion with the whole island. ] (]) 00:00, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::Good point, the two votes should be taken at the same time. I suggest we use ] as the basis of the second question (regarding usage in article text). ] 00:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	Should be '''Ireland (Island)''' and '''Ireland (State)'''--] (]) 00:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	:::I've rewritten the options per Superfopp's suggestion. ]. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small> 10:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	A vote on this single issue will not solve the dispute, since the dispute is much wider than this and covers references to the 26-county state in the texts of hundreds of other articles, and also articles about, e.g. "Politics of the Republic of Ireland". I therefore '''oppose''' it.
	The solution lies in a compromise between the article names and the other issues as per the Task Force.
	As I've said before, while I believe the state article should be at Republic of Ireland, I'm prepared for that to change in return for an agreement on the use of RoI elsewhere. In the absence of such an agreement, however, I will oppose the change of the current state article name.
	] (]) 10:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	:As I said below. (Status quo) should not appear beside the voting options. In the real world does it say Fianna Fail (status quo)?] 10:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	::"In the real world does it say Fianna Fail (status quo)?" No for much longer! I've taken it out. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small> 10:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	==Regaining some focus==
	We seem to have two proposals on the table at the moment — Masem's poll with three separate questions, and Rannṗáirtí Anaiṫnid's poll with just one question. Rannṗáirtí has very helpfully produced a ] for his (though it might be worth moving that to a sub-page of this Wikiproject). Can I suggest that Masem does something similar? A lot of extra options have been proposed for Masem's poll, and I'm completely lost track of which ones Masem has agreed to add and which are not. Domer48 has repeatedly said that we use a mechanism that does not involve voting, and under the previous moderators there seemed to be consensus against voting. However to date, I have not noticed any proposals that don't involve voting and that actually stand a chance of yielding a result. I would therefore like to encourage Domer48 to come up with a formal proposal too.
	Second, I notice that several users (including both moderators) have not ] to the ]. I said in those ground rules that they wouldn't come into force unless they had a majority of support ''and'' if the two moderators subscribed to them by midnight Sunday. Can I encourage people, particularly the moderators, to do this; or if they don't wish to support it, to say why not. (If the moderators would prefer to discuss that with me off-wiki, my email address is on my user page.)
	Thirdly, can I repeat BritishWatcher's plea that we try to focus on the process by which we are going to resolve this, rather than going round in circles reiterating the arguments for and against Ireland the state and Ireland the island? I've not seen any new arguments raised, and anyway, the time to discuss that is after we have sorted out the process.
	Finally, and rather more trivially, would anyone object if some of this page was archived? It is getting really rather long. I would suggest that everything before ] could safely be archived.
	—] (]) 00:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	: Agreed with the above comments, although id say archive everything from before we got the new moderators.. it was a fresh start we should of refreshed the talk page then. ] (]) 01:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	: I will just comment that I have no problem with which poll, mine or Rannṗáirtí, just that I believe this is the path of least resistance to go forward; I have no strong ties to my own poll, and if Rannṗáirtí's is preferred, all the better. --] (]) 01:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	:Archive a good idea, agree.--] (]) 01:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I agree. ] (]) 11:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	== Asarlaí's voting proposal ==
	This combines elements of ] and ].
	:'''Question 1:''' Under which titles should be placed the island of Ireland, the state of Ireland, and the disambiguation page for "Ireland"?
	::A) The island at '''Ireland''' / the state at '''Republic of Ireland''' ''(status quo)''
	::B) The island at '''Ireland (island)''' / the state at '''Ireland (state)''' / disambiguation at '''Ireland'''
	::C) The island at '''Ireland''' / the state at '''Ireland (state)'''
	::D) The island at '''Ireland (island)''' / the state at '''Ireland'''
			I agree that Ireland, the island, pre-dates the establishment of either state on the island and therefore the article "Ireland" should refer to the island. The use of parenthetical disambiguation is a fair, accurate and unbiased solution.
	:'''Question 2:''' In some articles there are occasions when distinctions should be made between Ireland-the-island, Ireland-the-state, and Northern Ireland. Where it isn't necessary to distinguish between these (for example in lists of sovereign states), the state should be referred to as "Ireland".
			Any reference to "The Republic of Ireland Act 1948" in relation to the name of the country is irrelevant, as the act made no reference to the name of the country and the name is clearly defined in the Irish constitution of 1937 and no subsequent amendment has changed the name. https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#part2
			It should also be noted that since the 2009 poll on this topic, Misplaced Pages has introduced auto suggest in the search field on the homepage. When a user enters the word “Ireland” into the search field the country is not in the list of suggested articles, as it is currently identified by a reference that is obscure to most. ] (]) 15:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC) (]) 15:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Where it ''is'' necessary to distinguish between these, what term should be used to describe the state?
			:{{tpq|As an Irish citizen, I was shocked and surprised to find that the title of the Misplaced Pages page for my country does not bear the actual name of my country.}} Why? '''Most''' countries aren't at their official name on Misplaced Pages. Very, very few 'state' articles actually reside at the official name of the state in question - see, e.g.: ], ], ], ], and ] - all doing well at page titles other than the official. "Ireland" is also the name of the island, which doesn't have a natural disambiguator. "Republic of Ireland" is a natural disambiguator for the state and is its official description. This has worked perfectly well both before and after the ]. If you read through ''that'', and the archives of this page, and can still then bring something new to the table, then of course it can be discussed - ] can change. But if your argument is solely that this isn't the name of the state, that won't serve to change anything. ]<sup>]</sup> 15:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
	::A) Republic of Ireland
			::Thanks for pointing me towards the historical discussion on this topic, it made for fascinating, yet disappointing, reading. I would counter that the current naming isn't working, as requests for change are made so frequently, much to the chagrin of mods.
	::B) state of Ireland
			::What surprised me (and offends others) is the simple fact that the name of the country is Ireland and that Misplaced Pages does not reflect that (internationally recognised) fact. Very few other countries actually bother to define their name in their constitution, yet Ireland clearly has, in both Irish and English.
			::For 85 years, this self-determination has been undermined by anti-Irish elements in an attempt to delegitimise the country, hence many Irish people balk at the forced imposition of the name "Republic Of Ireland". This delegitimisation is further perpetuated across Misplaced Pages as users link to a description rather than a country ( I know ] does have a guideline to use <nowiki>]</nowiki> when linking, but in practice that is unlikely to happen as many casual editors will just copy the title of the Ireland article).
			::All of the states you mentioned above have been afforded the respect of redirecting from their official title to their respective articles.
			::The argument that using "Republic Of Ireland" as the name is weak, as it is akin to using "Sparkling Soft Drink with Vegetable Extracts" in place of Coca-Cola to distinguish it from Pepsi, as both are official descriptions.
			::In my opinion, parenthetical disambiguation of "Ireland (country)" is a fair, balanced, inoffensive and factual disambiguator for the page. There is precedence in the disambiguation between ] and ], even with there already being a natural disambiguation as the official title of the US state is "State Of Georgia". ] (]) 13:01, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
			:::The most persuasive of your arguments is the one regarding the search field in the opening comment, but here you undermine your own position by posting an absurd and unsubstantiated rant in your third paragraph that reveals more about your own prejudices and bias than other people's and writing logically incoherent nonsense in the fifth and sixth paragraphs. ] and ] are disambiguated and ] covers both. No article is at ]. ] and ] are disambiguated and ] covers both. No article is at ]. ] is a state. ] (]) 14:30, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
			::::The clearest examples of attempts to undermine the constitutional name of Ireland are by the British government in both the Eire Act 1938<ref>{{cite web | title=Eire (Confirmation of Agreements) Act, 1938 | url=https://vlex.co.uk/vid/eire-confirmation-of-agreements-808327717}}</ref> and the Ireland Act 1949<ref>{{cite web | title=Ireland Act 1949 | url=https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/41/enacted}}</ref>, neither of which acknowledged the name of Ireland. These choices were politically motivated as there was still a degree of animosity between the newly independent Ireland and the former empire at the time. This position has subsequently changed<ref>{{cite web | title=Country names: The Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British official use | url=https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/country-names/country-names-the-permanent-committee-on-geographical-names-for-british-official-use}}</ref>.
			::::@] As for the Coke/Pespi example, just like your "Island in the Atlantic Ocean" example, it is absurd and was made to highlight how irrespective of how official a description is, it is not the name.
			::::That aside, it would be good to discuss the negative impact the page title has on the discoverability/usability in the search field. ] (]) 16:53, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
			{{reflist-talk}}
			The work that editors and moderators do on Misplaced Pages is fantastic and I appreciate it very much.
			I'm sure many are jaded by this topic rearing it's head so frequently and are reluctant to entertain a change to the status quo.
			Thirteen years have past since the last major debate over the naming of the articles, yet the issue keeps coming up as many see it as factually incorrect and it can no longer be dismissed as recently established consensus.
			Building a consensus is obviously the only way a change can be made here.
			May I ask, who determines that consensus has changed? ] (]) 21:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
			:The community. As you can see in the archives here the subject has come up many times. No new information seems to be raised in the conversations and they always (to date) end with the same consensus. There was even an attempt on this very page in the section immediately above, where the proposal was completely shot down. Now ] but it also doesn't have to change. I have zero issues with people re-opening the conversation and trying to alter or establish a new consensus, just as long as it isn't continuously happening. ] ] 21:34, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
			::I did see that it was recently discussed but the topic had been closed so was unable to reply within context.
			::As a relatively inexperienced contributor to Misplaced Pages (historically only making small additions), this WikiProject is quite an obscure corner of the platform that many users do not know about, but is a great way to discuss and gain agreement for changes.
			::Coupled with how intimidating it can be to new editors when an admin or moderator dismisses their suggestion, it's no surprise as to why the topic of fixing the title of ] is destined to always be classified as ].
			::Might I suggest that, given the frequency of contributions on this matter, a topic be left permanently open for discussion? ] (]) 17:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
			:::{{ping|Cashew.wheel}} You seem to be under a number of misconceptions here. 1) There is no position of "moderator" on Misplaced Pages, so {{tq|requests for change are made so frequently, much to the chagrin of mods}}, for example, makes no sense. 2) There is a position of administrator, but nobody has taken any admin action in the discussions here or at ] or ]. All that has happened is that other users like yourself have put forward their views, countering your arguments – not dismissing them. 3) Discussions like the three above end up as WP:SNOW because a great majority of those who take the trouble to ] are opposed to any move (8–1 in the most recent move request), not because "new editors" are "intimidated" against !voting. 4) The topic ''is'' left permanently open for discussion; otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it now. An individual ''thread'' is closed when there has been no additions for a reasonable amount of time, as was the case in the three threads above. Not a misapprehension as such, but I completely disagree that the name "Ireland" {{tq|has been undermined by anti-Irish elements in an attempt to delegitimise the country}}, that ROI is imposed by force (by whom?), that many Irish people "balk" at it, or indeed that Irish people in general find it offensive in the real world. For this reason, as well as all the reasons given above, I am opposed to any change in the status quo. ] (]) 14:55, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
			::::@] Thanks for clarifying about editors, admins and topics. I am new to discussing edits and as such am unfamiliar with the terminology, process and etiquette (I didn't even know to sign my first comment). I was not accusing anyone of intimidation, just noting that it can be intimidating for new editors to engage on a talk page with more seasoned editors who reply with terms, conventions, history and even markdown that they are unfamiliar with and may be put off from returning to contribute more.
			::::I have found the editor community welcoming and fair when engaging in constructive, albeit repetitive, discussion.
			::::The only case that I know of where the term "Republic Of Ireland" was actually forced on an Irish entity, is the 1953 ruling by FIFA on the name of teams fielded by the Football Association Of Ireland.<ref>{{cite web | url=https://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/fai-history-chapter-6-%E2%80%93-fifa-rules-on-irish-issue| title=FIFA rules on Irish issue}}</ref>. Other none-forced cases referred to the refusal of the British government to acknowledge the official name of the country until the late 1990s, the downstream impact that had on reporting by the media and thus the spread of the use of the incorrect name of the country.
			::::We can agree to disagree as to the degree as to proportion of the population that might take offence, it is subjective after all. ] (]) 17:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
			{{reflist-talk}}
			*The country's official description is "Republic of Ireland" and as someone in England I'd not even known the country's actual (short) name was just "Ireland" until I came across this debate in 2017. Many countries have official descriptions that aren't in common usage like ] and aren't really ambiguous so we use the official (short) name namely ]. ''']''' (]) 17:28, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			==Opposition to name change==
	Opinions? ] 01:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=Discussion ended: closed to allow eventual archiving. ] (]) 17:05, 17 December 2022 (UTC)}}
			Forgive me but its time to finally call this out. But it seems from looking at the history of the wiki contributors who object to having the above change, 99% of them come from a British nationalist persuasion judging by many of their edit history and interactions, and are completely unimpartial in this regard.
			I question the validity and feasbility of WikiProject Ireland now as it has clearly been hijacked by British nationalist and Northern Ireland unionist/loyalist editors projecting their political agenda and bias on an encyclopedia, as evidenced by the proposed requested move hiding behind "consensus" (between themselves) and "previous discussions" (agreed amongst themselves) they have become the gate-keepers now of this project and topic. Many Irish editors have simply given up on this project and can't be bothered dealing with this project anymore. This has clearly escaped the attention of the Arbritration Committee who should intervene in this issue and that of the move discussion on 'Ireland'. It seems like some radical Irish republicans and British nationalists have something in common by opposing the usage of the term Ireland also in that regard, leaving all the reasonable people scratching their heads. ] (]) 11:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
	The first part is almost identical to the poll I posed, though formatted differently. The second part ... well ... it's a bit rulish, and most people won't adhere to it. But I guess if the result is community endorsed then it will be a good way of quenching edit-wars whenever the occur among users not familiar with the result. ] (<small>]</small>) 04:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			:All is forgiven. ooOOOh I do love a good conspiracy theory. Go on then, don't be a tease - give us more juicy facts / examples of hijacking. ] (]) 12:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			::At least this question of its hijacking is out in the open now. Hardly a conspiracy theory when its so obvious to outside observers who will read and dig through the history and discussion on all this. I think everyone who wants to look can look at editors' like yourself and this project's contribution and talk history, same with the Ireland page, can judge for themselves and agree. At least on[REDACTED] people can see everything if they want to search. :) ] (]) 12:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			:::Ooooh I do love a good title that has to wrap, even on a desktop. Succinctness is overrated. ] (]) 12:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			::::You're welcome. ] (]) 12:08, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			:::::<small>The prevtious heading for this section was {{tq|Hijacking of the WikiIreland Project by British Nationalists + Opposition to name-change to 'Ireland' (actual name of country) from 'Republic of Ireland' (description)}}. I changed it to {{tq|Opposition to name change}} on 9 December. ] (]) 11:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)</small>
			:While I welcome support for a change of consensus on the name of Ireland, the aggressive, confrontational tone is not going to achieve anything. Also by not being a user, you lack accountability & credibility. ] (]) 12:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			::I have had an account for many years, but it was inactive for a while and cannot remember my log in details and username anyway so I stopped using it (I am not a sockpuppet a CheckUser will confirm that), me being a user or IP shouldn't matter anyway as the point still stands, the tone may be considered aggressive and confrontational by some, but when bad faith and political bias interfere with encyclopedic work and its impartiality then assertiveness is required to address it, I am sure any reasonable and impartial reader here would agree with that statement. ] (]) 12:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			:::Oooohh I '''do''' love a good stream-of-consciousness paragraph. Punctuation is overrated. ] (]) 13:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			:Ooooh I do love a good conspiracy theory. Let's have the evidence shall we? ] ] 13:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			::The proof is in the pudding as they say, you and the editors with British nationalist sentiments who are all over the WikiIreland project and oppose Ireland having an article being referred to by its actual name is amongst the evidence. Why don't you rename the France article "the Republic of France' or Spain 'the Kingdom of Spain' while you are at it? ] (]) 15:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			:::I'm not a British nationalist, I fully expect a United Ireland in my lifetime, something I never thought I'd see but the UK shot itself in the foot on that one. Do not make such attacks on other editors. My only objection to having the country at Ireland is that that is where the island is and the island is the primary topic. We prefer not to have clumsy brackets in topic names if it can be avoided such as Ireland (state). Thankfully the Irish government and legislation gave us a very handy disambiguation alternative. (Plus almost every single country on Misplaced Pages is not at the country's actual name, not the United States of America, not the Commonwealth of Australia, not the State of Israel, not the Republic of Korea and not even the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.) Not a single person on here denies that the name of the country is Ireland. And as I've clearly stated many times, consensus can change but nothing new has been brought to the table to result in enough of a discussion to alter that consensus. It's hardly anyone here's fault that when they formed the country they choose the same name as the island it was on despite not being all of the island. ] ] 15:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			::::Additionally stop accusing other editors of being nationalist editors and gatekeepers, if you continue with that you will be blocked for personal attacks. ] ] 15:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			::::Feels a bit disingenuous to compare - I believe some of those list acceptable alternatives and none of those were imposed on them by former colonial overlords (who still occupy territory!) despite decades of trying to stop that former overlord using the incorrect name.
			::::Republic of Ireland isn't an alternative name, it's a description of the state. As far as I knew Misplaced Pages generally uses accurate names instead of descriptions of things - is that not for the text in an article? ] (]) 03:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::::I am forced to repeat: "End the tryanny inflicted on the ]! Liberate the ]! Stop the oppression of the ]! Won't someone please think of the ]?" (Ok, in fairness, someone actually ''did'' end the tyranny inflicted on the ] pretty soon after I originally wrote the preceding sentence - but for several years that ''was'' the official name of the state!) So, er, ''no'', actually... Misplaced Pages uses ], and, in situations where there is ambiguity (as there is between the name of the state and the name of the Ireland), we use a disambiguator. ''Most'' 'state' articles aren't at the official name of the state. <small>Why do I have to keep pointing this out...</small> ]<sup>]</sup> 10:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			::::::Probably because it continues to be an issue. As mentioned previously, in my opinion parenthetical disambiguation of the article, while retaining the MOS ] in it's current form, would probably prevent the issue being brought up so frequently. ] (]) 13:12, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::::Um Republic of Ireland as the official description of the state was suggested and signed into legislation in Ireland by the government of Ireland in 1948, not by some colonial overlord. ] ] 13:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			* What are you proposing here? Are you proposing to move the country to "Ireland" and the island to "Ireland (island)" or are you proposing to move the country to "Ireland (country)"? As has already been discussed "Republic of Ireland" is the common name and the island serves as broad-concept article. Personally I'm from England and until I came across this about 5 years ago knew very little about Ireland, I wouldn't even have known which country Belfast and Dublin were the capital of, if someone asked me where either of them were I would have answered "Ireland". And I also had no awareness the country's official name is just "Ireland" I'd always heard it called "Republic of Ireland". ''']''' (]) 16:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			*:Genuinely hilarious - unless I'm misinterpreting this you're literally arguing this from a British point of view. Why should the Irish put up with an incorrect name imposed on them by Brits and have that defended by Brits saying "oh it's just what we knew" ] (]) 03:49, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			*Just looking from {{oldid|Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration|1101164007|the top of this page}}, I see support for the status quo coming from myself ({{U|Scolaire}}), {{U|SeoR}}, {{U|Laurel Lodged}}, {{U|Guliolopez}}, {{U|Nicknack009}}, {{U|FDW777}} and {{U|ww2censor}}, all of whom (correct me if I'm wrong) are Irish, and none of whom are of a "British nationalist persuasion" as can be seen from their edit history and interactions. What intrigues ''me'' is the number of anon editors and ] who have opened discussions on this page and {{oldid|Talk:Republic of Ireland|1097040363|Talk:Republic of Ireland}} in the last few months saying they are to find that the title is being foisted on good faith Misplaced Pages users by a cabal of British editors! After ten years of nobody making any comment. I'll say no more. ] (]) 17:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			** How interesting! The last time I checked, I had a Dutch passport. But I confess, I live in the Free Fenian Republic of Ireland on the ]. {{smiley}} <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">]&nbsp;]</span> 18:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
			::And I've never revealed my nationality or anything. In all my years in the Ireland related space I've been called a Protestant, Catholic, Unionist, Republican, British, Irish, IRA sympathiser, UDA whore, and every single possible variant combined with as many expletives as you'd like. I really should make a list as I'm honestly not sure which side of the divide I've been accused of being on the most by people interested in maintaining a divide and continuing to foster divisions. ] ] 10:26, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
			:::Ha! My "I know who/what you really are!" Misplaced Pages accusations CV includes an ETA member, a muslim, Sepp Blatter, Ian Duncan Smith and, based on an article I created, . It's almost always those busting a gut to push a POV that make such charges, ironically enough. ] (]) 15:21, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
			::::Oh yeah I've been accused of many other things (usually by people who are blocked very shortly after.) I was just restricting to the Ireland related articles :) ] ] 19:15, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			==Why not a disambiguation page?==
	:On the second part, there was good support for BlueHairedLawyers' proposal (]). We could run a simultaneous poll about that. --<span style="font-family:Bunchló GC,BunchlÛ GC,inherit,sans-serif;">rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small></span> 08:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=Discussion ended: closed to allow eventual archiving. ] (]) 16:48, 26 March 2023 (UTC)}}
	:: I agree, having a vote for or against that sort of statement explaining the ground rules for how to use Ireland in text i think is a fairer way and the vast majority would support it so it would be a much more solid agreement. The trouble with the above suggested poll is the large number who think the country article should be at ] will vote for that to be used in text, the large number strongly opposed to it will vote another way, simply creating more disagreement. We should try a vote on the sort of proposal mentioned above by coṁrá. ] (]) 09:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			I read through some of the recent discussion on renaming this page and the argument generally seemed to be "there can be only one article named Ireland and so that is the island" and that's the way it's always been so that's the way it should always be.
	:::Question 2 cannot be poled. Only discussion can sort that out as Rannpháirtí anaithnid has pointed out above me. Also no need to put (status quo) in the vote.] 10:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			There seems to be some inconsistency here with respect to how ] is treated though. That goes to a disambiguation page that suggests Britain could commonly either refer to the island of Great Britain or the United Kingdom. Why would Ireland likewise not default to a disambiguation page that says Ireland most often refers to the island or the Republic of Ireland? ] (]) 05:33, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
	'''Yet again''' can I advise that separate polls on each issue are not organised as there will be no compromise and therefore no consensus. For example, if the above poll were run I would vote for A and A (no compromise). If a package is offered, however, I would have to accept a compromise. ] (]) 10:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			:I see no need for consistency between these articles and ]. Ireland defaulting to a disambiguation page was one of the options in the ] in 2009. It did not reach consensus. There is no reason to believe that consensus has changed since then. It's fine to have the British dab page at Britain and the Irish dab page at ]. 20:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
			::As someone else said above, "Thirteen years have past since the last major debate over the naming of the articles, yet the issue keeps coming up as many see it as factually incorrect and it can no longer be dismissed as recently established consensus." ] (]) 20:10, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
			:::Nobody said that it is a "recently established consensus." It has been the consensus since 2002, and that consensus was clearly shown in the 2009 poll. The fact that there has been no major debate since 2012 is itself evidence that consensus has not changed. You have made a reasonable suggestion here – though one with which I disagree – but there was no rush of support for it, just as there was no rush of support for any of the other recent proposals, from which I conclude that consensus still hasn't changed. ] (]) 10:57, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
			::::"You have made a reasonable suggestion here – though one with which I disagree – but there was no rush of support for it, just as there was no rush of support for any of the other recent proposals, from which I conclude that consensus still hasn't changed."
			::::Thank you for agreeing that I've made a reasonable suggestion. Reasonable minds can certainly disagree, just as I disagree with your conclusion that the supposed lack of support for my proposal on this page is evidence that consensus hasn't changed. I would argue that there was no "rush of support" for the same reason there was no rush of opposition, because this discussion page is difficult to find and has low visibility. Even as someone who was interested in addressing the topic, it took me awhile to find it, and only because I actually cared about posting in the designated area.
			::::If you want to limit discussion to people who have already made up their minds, and are already aware that this page exists, then that's an easy but questionable way to maintain consensus for the status quo. If, on the other hand, you want to get a sense of what the broader Misplaced Pages community thinks about this, you'd be better served revisiting this topic on the actual discussion page for ] and/or ]. ] (]) 04:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
			:::::You are actually unusual in raising the issue on this page. Mostly, discussions about naming ''are'' started at Talk:Ireland or Talk:Republic of Ireland. This is followed by somebody pointing out that discussions must take place on this page (by order of the ], not "people who have already made up their minds"), at which point either the discussion moves here, or it lapses. Either way, the outcome is the same: people are made aware of the discussion but do not turn turn up in numbers to overturn consensus. Thus the consensus remains. ] (]) 12:58, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
			::Disambiguation pages are usually not necessary where there are only two alternate pages, as in the case with Ireland; in the case of Britain, there's a decent list there. While I personally prefer to refer to the state as Ireland where possible, and think it could actually be done so more extensively on Misplaced Pages without confusion than is the case at present, it is an official description of the state in Irish law. According to ], where there is a natural disambiguation, that is typically the best term to use, as '''Republic of Ireland''' qualifies as that. ] (]) 11:13, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
	== Discussion on Ireland (island) vs. Ireland (state) (split from above) ==
			:::"Disambiguation pages are usually not necessary where there are only two alternate pages, as in the case with Ireland; in the case of Britain, there's a decent list there."
			:::How do you figure? There are only 11 entries on the disambiguation page for ] and 25 on ]. In both instances, there are only two main disambiguation links - to the island and the country. ] (]) 20:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
			:After all these years, I'm not seeing any consensus for changing the title of this page ''or'' for making it into a disambiguation page. The ], are down to just the bones. ] (]) 18:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
			:For all the talk that "consensus can change" ], it's just a fallacy. Those against change hide behind it as an excuse while those in favour of change grow disillusioned by the vague arbitrary goalposts being set. I would support a disambiguation page and the use of parental disambiguation. ] (]) 18:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
			::"Consensus can change" is not a fallacy. See for instance ] on whether to make "China" a redirect to China (disambiguation) instead of to "Chinese civilization" (the then current setting), and compare it with ] which decided that "China" should be the article for the People's Republic of China. In that case there was a clear and obvious change in consensus, which led to the desired change. It wasn't a case of "twenty people over the last five years have expressed dissatisfaction so we'll have to change it." Nothing similar has happened on these pages. Also, please ]. Neither I nor anybody else is hiding behind anything as an excuse. We're replying to your arguments, that's all. And what in the world are these "vague arbitrary goalposts"? The reasons for keeping the status quo are concrete and clearly (and consistently) stated. ] (]) 12:28, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
			:::Further to my point above about where this discussion should take place to truly determine current consensus, I note that those 2006 and 2011 discussions on ] that you mentioned took place on the actual talk page for Chinese civilization (which was the default redirect at the time). ] (]) 04:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
			::::An earlier ArbCom ruling has stated that this discussion on moving Ireland, renaming the articles on Ireland and Republic of Ireland, must take place here. Unless that ArbCom ruling is withdrawn or rescinded then here is the only place any such discussion may take place. I will agree though that that does have a measure of potentially limiting involvement in the discussion which could be an issue, however anytime anyone brings up this topic elsewhere they do get redirected here and there are headers on the relevant pages directing to this one. ] ] 12:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Well, I'm glad you agree that does potentially limit involvement in the discussion. While ] mentions that most people initially raise the issue on the ] or ] talk page, he also says that the discussion almost immediately gets rerouted here. That probably has the same net effect of limiting both visibility and participation in the discussion.
			:::::However long ago that ArbCom decision may have been made, it might be time to revisit it, if only temporarily. if there's an actual desire to take the temperature on current consensus, then I think it's quite frankly unlikely to happen as long as the discussion is limited to this page.
			:::::I do appreciate, whatever other differences of opinion we may have on the matter, that you both acknowledge my suggestions here have not been unreasonable. ] (]) 06:26, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
			::::::I don't accept that rerouting the discussion "has the same net effect of limiting both visibility and participation in the discussion". If there was a substantial number of people wanting change (i.e. enough people to overturn the consensus), they would see the request at the Ireland or ROI talk page, see that the discussion was moved, and follow the link to this page. Compare {{oldid|Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration|1143899445|the current version}} of this page with ], which I picked at random out of 34 archive pages(!), and see the amount of discussion and the number of people that contributed over a period of just three days. That simply wouldn't happen today.
			::::::I would have no problem with somebody asking ArbCom to change its ruling, and allow naming discussions to be held at the article talk pages. ] (]) 15:40, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
			::::Since {{U|TempDog123}} raises the same point twice, I'll answer it twice. More often than not, requests to rename the pages ''are'' initially made on Talk:Ireland or Talk:Republic of Ireland, so people are aware of the request but do not turn up in numbers to overturn the consensus. To reiterate, consensus can change, but in this case it just hasn't. Sorry. ] (]) 13:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Also it's worth nothing that most requests to move the page are by drive by accounts with no real skin in the game, just new accounts or editors that fly by after being outraged at it, post some angry messages, and then leave with no actual desire to engage in actual real conversation or debate on the topic beyond a couple of hours. When this is the instigation and participation, it's no wonder that there isn't any further progress on anything. ] ] 13:19, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Credibility bot ==
			As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to ]. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at ] and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at ]. Thanks! ] (]) 17:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
	I cannot see what the problem is with '''Ireland (island)''' and '''Ireland (state)'''? Why do you oppose this ], you must have some specific reservations which for the life of me i cannot recognise?
	Ireland is an ] and Ireland is a recognised ] so what's the difficulty. Certainly, I agree that we ], north and south, also use the terms such as the Irish Republic, the Republic of Ireland and the Free State daily in conversation and communication because that is what we all know it as.--] (]) 12:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
	:"I cannot see what the problem is..." Neither side can't. I can't see what's wrong with things as they are. We've been over and over this for years. See the archives on this page and many other, we've been through this time and time again. There's no point any more, we won't achieve a consensus. Let's just vote. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small> 12:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			== ARCA ==
	::Not until I get an answer to my question by anyone who disagrees with using '''Ireland (island)''' and '''Ireland (State)'''. --] (]) 12:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			There is a discussion at ] about changing the notices to say discussion about the Ireland articles should take place on this project's talk page rather that the project page its self. I'm not suggesting any other changes are needed or that the articles should be moved. ''']''' (]) 22:36, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::IMHO ] is a ] (i.e. deals with the history, culture, geography, people of all of Ireland). The article currently at ] is a subtopic of that (in respect of history, culture, geography, people etc.) Some people are unhappy at the article on the state being at ] and would like it to be moved to ]. That would be fine by me. ] the ] page would be my last choice, since it would introduce a needless step into the equation (everything you might need to know about Ireland is in the ] article, if you want to know more about specifically the state of the same name, go to article that deals with specifically with that).
			:Now that such discussions are allowed to take place on the ] & the ] talkpages? Maybe this WikiProject could be retired. Since there's already ] in existance. ] (]) 06:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
	:::Contrast our way of doing things with Britannica which makes no distinction between the state and the island, having only one article that is ostensibly about the state, but which actually covers the whole island (like a merger between our current ] and ]). I would be in favour of such a solution too (over the current solution). From experience though it wouldn't work on WP. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid <small>(])</small> 12:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
			::Inevitably, some lover of drama or good-faith new editor will propose a move. Seeing as that will effect, at minimum, the Ireland, Republic of Ireland and Ireland (disambiguation) pages, it makes sense to have a "neutral" central place to have the discussion. There is also a '''lot''' of material here that people will want to link in any ensuing discussion. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:44, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::"Retired" doesn't mean deleted. Linking to here in any future discussion may be useful, but moving the discussion to here would be directly counter to the ArbCom decision. ] (]) 13:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
			:::PS: See ] for links. ] (]) 13:42, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

---

Latest revision as of 13:42, 3 December 2023

This project page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Ireland This page is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland Northern Ireland This page is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Northern Ireland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Northern IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject Northern IrelandTemplate:WikiProject Northern IrelandNorthern Ireland-related Unionism in Ireland (defunct) This page is within the scope of WikiProject Unionism in Ireland, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Unionism in IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject Unionism in IrelandTemplate:WikiProject Unionism in IrelandUnionism in Ireland Irish republicanism This page is within the scope of WikiProject Irish republicanism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Irish republicanism and Irish nationalism related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Irish republicanismWikipedia:WikiProject Irish republicanismTemplate:WikiProject Irish republicanismIrish republicanism

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34

This page has archives. Sections older than 15 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Shortcut

• WT:IECOLL

Move: Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

As an Irish citizen, I was shocked and surprised to find that the title of the Misplaced Pages page for my country does not bear the actual name of my country.

I agree that Ireland, the island, pre-dates the establishment of either state on the island and therefore the article "Ireland" should refer to the island. The use of parenthetical disambiguation is a fair, accurate and unbiased solution. Any reference to "The Republic of Ireland Act 1948" in relation to the name of the country is irrelevant, as the act made no reference to the name of the country and the name is clearly defined in the Irish constitution of 1937 and no subsequent amendment has changed the name. https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#part2

It should also be noted that since the 2009 poll on this topic, Misplaced Pages has introduced auto suggest in the search field on the homepage. When a user enters the word “Ireland” into the search field the country is not in the list of suggested articles, as it is currently identified by a reference that is obscure to most. Cashew.wheel (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC) (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cashew.wheel (talk • contribs) 15:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

As an Irish citizen, I was shocked and surprised to find that the title of the Misplaced Pages page for my country does not bear the actual name of my country. Why? Most countries aren't at their official name on Misplaced Pages. Very, very few 'state' articles actually reside at the official name of the state in question - see, e.g.: State of Libya, French Republic, United Mexican States, State of the City of the Vatican, and United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - all doing well at page titles other than the official. "Ireland" is also the name of the island, which doesn't have a natural disambiguator. "Republic of Ireland" is a natural disambiguator for the state and is its official description. This has worked perfectly well both before and after the huge debate of 2009. If you read through that, and the archives of this page, and can still then bring something new to the table, then of course it can be discussed - consensus can change. But if your argument is solely that this isn't the name of the state, that won't serve to change anything. Bastun 15:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me towards the historical discussion on this topic, it made for fascinating, yet disappointing, reading. I would counter that the current naming isn't working, as requests for change are made so frequently, much to the chagrin of mods.

What surprised me (and offends others) is the simple fact that the name of the country is Ireland and that Misplaced Pages does not reflect that (internationally recognised) fact. Very few other countries actually bother to define their name in their constitution, yet Ireland clearly has, in both Irish and English.

For 85 years, this self-determination has been undermined by anti-Irish elements in an attempt to delegitimise the country, hence many Irish people balk at the forced imposition of the name "Republic Of Ireland". This delegitimisation is further perpetuated across Misplaced Pages as users link to a description rather than a country ( I know WP:IMOS does have a guideline to use ] when linking, but in practice that is unlikely to happen as many casual editors will just copy the title of the Ireland article).

All of the states you mentioned above have been afforded the respect of redirecting from their official title to their respective articles.

The argument that using "Republic Of Ireland" as the name is weak, as it is akin to using "Sparkling Soft Drink with Vegetable Extracts" in place of Coca-Cola to distinguish it from Pepsi, as both are official descriptions.

In my opinion, parenthetical disambiguation of "Ireland (country)" is a fair, balanced, inoffensive and factual disambiguator for the page. There is precedence in the disambiguation between Georgia_(country) and Georgia_(U.S._state), even with there already being a natural disambiguation as the official title of the US state is "State Of Georgia". Cashew.wheel (talk) 13:01, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

The most persuasive of your arguments is the one regarding the search field in the opening comment, but here you undermine your own position by posting an absurd and unsubstantiated rant in your third paragraph that reveals more about your own prejudices and bias than other people's and writing logically incoherent nonsense in the fifth and sixth paragraphs. Coca-Cola and Pepsi Cola are disambiguated and cola covers both. No article is at Sparkling Soft Drink with Vegetable Extracts. Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are disambiguated and Ireland covers both. No article is at Island in the Atlantic Ocean to the west of Great Britain. Georgia is a state. DrKay (talk) 14:30, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

The clearest examples of attempts to undermine the constitutional name of Ireland are by the British government in both the Eire Act 1938 and the Ireland Act 1949, neither of which acknowledged the name of Ireland. These choices were politically motivated as there was still a degree of animosity between the newly independent Ireland and the former empire at the time. This position has subsequently changed.

@DrKay As for the Coke/Pespi example, just like your "Island in the Atlantic Ocean" example, it is absurd and was made to highlight how irrespective of how official a description is, it is not the name.

That aside, it would be good to discuss the negative impact the page title has on the discoverability/usability in the search field. Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

References

1. "Eire (Confirmation of Agreements) Act, 1938".
2. "Ireland Act 1949".
3. "Country names: The Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British official use".

The work that editors and moderators do on Misplaced Pages is fantastic and I appreciate it very much. I'm sure many are jaded by this topic rearing it's head so frequently and are reluctant to entertain a change to the status quo. Thirteen years have past since the last major debate over the naming of the articles, yet the issue keeps coming up as many see it as factually incorrect and it can no longer be dismissed as recently established consensus. Building a consensus is obviously the only way a change can be made here. May I ask, who determines that consensus has changed? Cashew.wheel (talk) 21:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

The community. As you can see in the archives here the subject has come up many times. No new information seems to be raised in the conversations and they always (to date) end with the same consensus. There was even an attempt on this very page in the section immediately above, where the proposal was completely shot down. Now WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE but it also doesn't have to change. I have zero issues with people re-opening the conversation and trying to alter or establish a new consensus, just as long as it isn't continuously happening. Canterbury Tail talk 21:34, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I did see that it was recently discussed but the topic had been closed so was unable to reply within context.

As a relatively inexperienced contributor to Misplaced Pages (historically only making small additions), this WikiProject is quite an obscure corner of the platform that many users do not know about, but is a great way to discuss and gain agreement for changes.

Coupled with how intimidating it can be to new editors when an admin or moderator dismisses their suggestion, it's no surprise as to why the topic of fixing the title of Ireland is destined to always be classified as WP:SNOW.

Might I suggest that, given the frequency of contributions on this matter, a topic be left permanently open for discussion? Cashew.wheel (talk) 17:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@Cashew.wheel: You seem to be under a number of misconceptions here. 1) There is no position of "moderator" on Misplaced Pages, so requests for change are made so frequently, much to the chagrin of mods, for example, makes no sense. 2) There is a position of administrator, but nobody has taken any admin action in the discussions here or at Talk:Ireland or Talk:Republic of Ireland. All that has happened is that other users like yourself have put forward their views, countering your arguments – not dismissing them. 3) Discussions like the three above end up as WP:SNOW because a great majority of those who take the trouble to !vote are opposed to any move (8–1 in the most recent move request), not because "new editors" are "intimidated" against !voting. 4) The topic is left permanently open for discussion; otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it now. An individual thread is closed when there has been no additions for a reasonable amount of time, as was the case in the three threads above. Not a misapprehension as such, but I completely disagree that the name "Ireland" has been undermined by anti-Irish elements in an attempt to delegitimise the country, that ROI is imposed by force (by whom?), that many Irish people "balk" at it, or indeed that Irish people in general find it offensive in the real world. For this reason, as well as all the reasons given above, I am opposed to any change in the status quo. Scolaire (talk) 14:55, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@Scolaire Thanks for clarifying about editors, admins and topics. I am new to discussing edits and as such am unfamiliar with the terminology, process and etiquette (I didn't even know to sign my first comment). I was not accusing anyone of intimidation, just noting that it can be intimidating for new editors to engage on a talk page with more seasoned editors who reply with terms, conventions, history and even markdown that they are unfamiliar with and may be put off from returning to contribute more.

I have found the editor community welcoming and fair when engaging in constructive, albeit repetitive, discussion.

The only case that I know of where the term "Republic Of Ireland" was actually forced on an Irish entity, is the 1953 ruling by FIFA on the name of teams fielded by the Football Association Of Ireland.. Other none-forced cases referred to the refusal of the British government to acknowledge the official name of the country until the late 1990s, the downstream impact that had on reporting by the media and thus the spread of the use of the incorrect name of the country.

We can agree to disagree as to the degree as to proportion of the population that might take offence, it is subjective after all. Cashew.wheel (talk) 17:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

References

1. "FIFA rules on Irish issue".

• The country's official description is "Republic of Ireland" and as someone in England I'd not even known the country's actual (short) name was just "Ireland" until I came across this debate in 2017. Many countries have official descriptions that aren't in common usage like Republic of France and aren't really ambiguous so we use the official (short) name namely France. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:28, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opposition to name change

Discussion ended: closed to allow eventual archiving. Scolaire (talk) 17:05, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Forgive me but its time to finally call this out. But it seems from looking at the history of the wiki contributors who object to having the above change, 99% of them come from a British nationalist persuasion judging by many of their edit history and interactions, and are completely unimpartial in this regard.

I question the validity and feasbility of WikiProject Ireland now as it has clearly been hijacked by British nationalist and Northern Ireland unionist/loyalist editors projecting their political agenda and bias on an encyclopedia, as evidenced by the proposed requested move hiding behind "consensus" (between themselves) and "previous discussions" (agreed amongst themselves) they have become the gate-keepers now of this project and topic. Many Irish editors have simply given up on this project and can't be bothered dealing with this project anymore. This has clearly escaped the attention of the Arbritration Committee who should intervene in this issue and that of the move discussion on 'Ireland'. It seems like some radical Irish republicans and British nationalists have something in common by opposing the usage of the term Ireland also in that regard, leaving all the reasonable people scratching their heads. 51.37.118.212 (talk) 11:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

All is forgiven. ooOOOh I do love a good conspiracy theory. Go on then, don't be a tease - give us more juicy facts / examples of hijacking. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

At least this question of its hijacking is out in the open now. Hardly a conspiracy theory when its so obvious to outside observers who will read and dig through the history and discussion on all this. I think everyone who wants to look can look at editors' like yourself and this project's contribution and talk history, same with the Ireland page, can judge for themselves and agree. At least on[REDACTED] people can see everything if they want to search. :) 51.37.118.212 (talk) 12:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Ooooh I do love a good title that has to wrap, even on a desktop. Succinctness is overrated. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome. 51.37.118.212 (talk) 12:08, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The prevtious heading for this section was Hijacking of the WikiIreland Project by British Nationalists + Opposition to name-change to 'Ireland' (actual name of country) from 'Republic of Ireland' (description). I changed it to Opposition to name change on 9 December. Scolaire (talk) 11:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

While I welcome support for a change of consensus on the name of Ireland, the aggressive, confrontational tone is not going to achieve anything. Also by not being a user, you lack accountability & credibility. Cashew.wheel (talk) 12:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I have had an account for many years, but it was inactive for a while and cannot remember my log in details and username anyway so I stopped using it (I am not a sockpuppet a CheckUser will confirm that), me being a user or IP shouldn't matter anyway as the point still stands, the tone may be considered aggressive and confrontational by some, but when bad faith and political bias interfere with encyclopedic work and its impartiality then assertiveness is required to address it, I am sure any reasonable and impartial reader here would agree with that statement. 51.37.118.212 (talk) 12:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Oooohh I do love a good stream-of-consciousness paragraph. Punctuation is overrated. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Ooooh I do love a good conspiracy theory. Let's have the evidence shall we? Canterbury Tail talk 13:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The proof is in the pudding as they say, you and the editors with British nationalist sentiments who are all over the WikiIreland project and oppose Ireland having an article being referred to by its actual name is amongst the evidence. Why don't you rename the France article "the Republic of France' or Spain 'the Kingdom of Spain' while you are at it? 51.37.118.212 (talk) 15:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not a British nationalist, I fully expect a United Ireland in my lifetime, something I never thought I'd see but the UK shot itself in the foot on that one. Do not make such attacks on other editors. My only objection to having the country at Ireland is that that is where the island is and the island is the primary topic. We prefer not to have clumsy brackets in topic names if it can be avoided such as Ireland (state). Thankfully the Irish government and legislation gave us a very handy disambiguation alternative. (Plus almost every single country on Misplaced Pages is not at the country's actual name, not the United States of America, not the Commonwealth of Australia, not the State of Israel, not the Republic of Korea and not even the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.) Not a single person on here denies that the name of the country is Ireland. And as I've clearly stated many times, consensus can change but nothing new has been brought to the table to result in enough of a discussion to alter that consensus. It's hardly anyone here's fault that when they formed the country they choose the same name as the island it was on despite not being all of the island. Canterbury Tail talk 15:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Additionally stop accusing other editors of being nationalist editors and gatekeepers, if you continue with that you will be blocked for personal attacks. Canterbury Tail talk 15:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Feels a bit disingenuous to compare - I believe some of those list acceptable alternatives and none of those were imposed on them by former colonial overlords (who still occupy territory!) despite decades of trying to stop that former overlord using the incorrect name.

Republic of Ireland isn't an alternative name, it's a description of the state. As far as I knew Misplaced Pages generally uses accurate names instead of descriptions of things - is that not for the text in an article? Saoirserose (talk) 03:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I am forced to repeat: "End the tryanny inflicted on the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya! Liberate the French Republic! Stop the oppression of the United Mexican States! Won't someone please think of the State of the City of the Vatican?" (Ok, in fairness, someone actually did end the tyranny inflicted on the State of Libya pretty soon after I originally wrote the preceding sentence - but for several years that was the official name of the state!) So, er, no, actually... Misplaced Pages uses common names, and, in situations where there is ambiguity (as there is between the name of the state and the name of the Ireland), we use a disambiguator. Most 'state' articles aren't at the official name of the state. Why do I have to keep pointing this out... Bastun 10:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Probably because it continues to be an issue. As mentioned previously, in my opinion parenthetical disambiguation of the article, while retaining the MOS WP:IRE-IRL in it's current form, would probably prevent the issue being brought up so frequently. Cashew.wheel (talk) 13:12, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Um Republic of Ireland as the official description of the state was suggested and signed into legislation in Ireland by the government of Ireland in 1948, not by some colonial overlord. Canterbury Tail talk 13:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• What are you proposing here? Are you proposing to move the country to "Ireland" and the island to "Ireland (island)" or are you proposing to move the country to "Ireland (country)"? As has already been discussed "Republic of Ireland" is the common name and the island serves as broad-concept article. Personally I'm from England and until I came across this about 5 years ago knew very little about Ireland, I wouldn't even have known which country Belfast and Dublin were the capital of, if someone asked me where either of them were I would have answered "Ireland". And I also had no awareness the country's official name is just "Ireland" I'd always heard it called "Republic of Ireland". Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Genuinely hilarious - unless I'm misinterpreting this you're literally arguing this from a British point of view. Why should the Irish put up with an incorrect name imposed on them by Brits and have that defended by Brits saying "oh it's just what we knew" Saoirserose (talk) 03:49, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

• Just looking from the top of this page, I see support for the status quo coming from myself (Scolaire), SeoR, Laurel Lodged, Guliolopez, Nicknack009, FDW777 and ww2censor, all of whom (correct me if I'm wrong) are Irish, and none of whom are of a "British nationalist persuasion" as can be seen from their edit history and interactions. What intrigues me is the number of anon editors and SPAs who have opened discussions on this page and Talk:Republic of Ireland in the last few months saying they are shocked, shocked to find that the title is being foisted on good faith Misplaced Pages users by a cabal of British editors! After ten years of nobody making any comment. I'll say no more. Scolaire (talk) 17:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
  • How interesting! The last time I checked, I had a Dutch passport. But I confess, I live in the Free Fenian Republic of Ireland on the island of Ireland. The Banner talk 18:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

And I've never revealed my nationality or anything. In all my years in the Ireland related space I've been called a Protestant, Catholic, Unionist, Republican, British, Irish, IRA sympathiser, UDA whore, and every single possible variant combined with as many expletives as you'd like. I really should make a list as I'm honestly not sure which side of the divide I've been accused of being on the most by people interested in maintaining a divide and continuing to foster divisions. Canterbury Tail talk 10:26, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Ha! My "I know who/what you really are!" Misplaced Pages accusations CV includes an ETA member, a muslim, Sepp Blatter, Ian Duncan Smith and, based on an article I created, God. It's almost always those busting a gut to push a POV that make such charges, ironically enough. Valenciano (talk) 15:21, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh yeah I've been accused of many other things (usually by people who are blocked very shortly after.) I was just restricting to the Ireland related articles :) Canterbury Tail talk 19:15, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why not a disambiguation page?

Discussion ended: closed to allow eventual archiving. Scolaire (talk) 16:48, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I read through some of the recent discussion on renaming this page and the argument generally seemed to be "there can be only one article named Ireland and so that is the island" and that's the way it's always been so that's the way it should always be.

There seems to be some inconsistency here with respect to how Britain is treated though. That goes to a disambiguation page that suggests Britain could commonly either refer to the island of Great Britain or the United Kingdom. Why would Ireland likewise not default to a disambiguation page that says Ireland most often refers to the island or the Republic of Ireland? TempDog123 (talk) 05:33, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I see no need for consistency between these articles and Britain. Ireland defaulting to a disambiguation page was one of the options in the poll on Ireland article names in 2009. It did not reach consensus. There is no reason to believe that consensus has changed since then. It's fine to have the British dab page at Britain and the Irish dab page at Ireland (disambiguation). 20:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

As someone else said above, "Thirteen years have past since the last major debate over the naming of the articles, yet the issue keeps coming up as many see it as factually incorrect and it can no longer be dismissed as recently established consensus." TempDog123 (talk) 20:10, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Nobody said that it is a "recently established consensus." It has been the consensus since 2002, and that consensus was clearly shown in the 2009 poll. The fact that there has been no major debate since 2012 is itself evidence that consensus has not changed. You have made a reasonable suggestion here – though one with which I disagree – but there was no rush of support for it, just as there was no rush of support for any of the other recent proposals, from which I conclude that consensus still hasn't changed. Scolaire (talk) 10:57, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

"You have made a reasonable suggestion here – though one with which I disagree – but there was no rush of support for it, just as there was no rush of support for any of the other recent proposals, from which I conclude that consensus still hasn't changed."

Thank you for agreeing that I've made a reasonable suggestion. Reasonable minds can certainly disagree, just as I disagree with your conclusion that the supposed lack of support for my proposal on this page is evidence that consensus hasn't changed. I would argue that there was no "rush of support" for the same reason there was no rush of opposition, because this discussion page is difficult to find and has low visibility. Even as someone who was interested in addressing the topic, it took me awhile to find it, and only because I actually cared about posting in the designated area.

If you want to limit discussion to people who have already made up their minds, and are already aware that this page exists, then that's an easy but questionable way to maintain consensus for the status quo. If, on the other hand, you want to get a sense of what the broader Misplaced Pages community thinks about this, you'd be better served revisiting this topic on the actual discussion page for Ireland and/or Republic of Ireland. TempDog123 (talk) 04:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

You are actually unusual in raising the issue on this page. Mostly, discussions about naming are started at Talk:Ireland or Talk:Republic of Ireland. This is followed by somebody pointing out that discussions must take place on this page (by order of the Arbitration Committee, not "people who have already made up their minds"), at which point either the discussion moves here, or it lapses. Either way, the outcome is the same: people are made aware of the discussion but do not turn turn up in numbers to overturn consensus. Thus the consensus remains. Scolaire (talk) 12:58, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages are usually not necessary where there are only two alternate pages, as in the case with Ireland; in the case of Britain, there's a decent list there. While I personally prefer to refer to the state as Ireland where possible, and think it could actually be done so more extensively on Misplaced Pages without confusion than is the case at present, it is an official description of the state in Irish law. According to WP:NCDAB, where there is a natural disambiguation, that is typically the best term to use, as Republic of Ireland qualifies as that. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:13, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

"Disambiguation pages are usually not necessary where there are only two alternate pages, as in the case with Ireland; in the case of Britain, there's a decent list there."

How do you figure? There are only 11 entries on the disambiguation page for Britain and 25 on Ireland (disambiguation). In both instances, there are only two main disambiguation links - to the island and the country. TempDog123 (talk) 20:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

After all these years, I'm not seeing any consensus for changing the title of this page or for making it into a disambiguation page. The poor old horse's remains, are down to just the bones. GoodDay (talk) 18:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

For all the talk that "consensus can change" WP:CCC, it's just a fallacy. Those against change hide behind it as an excuse while those in favour of change grow disillusioned by the vague arbitrary goalposts being set. I would support a disambiguation page and the use of parental disambiguation. Cashew.wheel (talk) 18:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

"Consensus can change" is not a fallacy. See for instance this 2006 discussion on whether to make "China" a redirect to China (disambiguation) instead of to "Chinese civilization" (the then current setting), and compare it with this 2011 discussion which decided that "China" should be the article for the People's Republic of China. In that case there was a clear and obvious change in consensus, which led to the desired change. It wasn't a case of "twenty people over the last five years have expressed dissatisfaction so we'll have to change it." Nothing similar has happened on these pages. Also, please assume good faith. Neither I nor anybody else is hiding behind anything as an excuse. We're replying to your arguments, that's all. And what in the world are these "vague arbitrary goalposts"? The reasons for keeping the status quo are concrete and clearly (and consistently) stated. Scolaire (talk) 12:28, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Further to my point above about where this discussion should take place to truly determine current consensus, I note that those 2006 and 2011 discussions on China that you mentioned took place on the actual talk page for Chinese civilization (which was the default redirect at the time). TempDog123 (talk) 04:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

An earlier ArbCom ruling has stated that this discussion on moving Ireland, renaming the articles on Ireland and Republic of Ireland, must take place here. Unless that ArbCom ruling is withdrawn or rescinded then here is the only place any such discussion may take place. I will agree though that that does have a measure of potentially limiting involvement in the discussion which could be an issue, however anytime anyone brings up this topic elsewhere they do get redirected here and there are headers on the relevant pages directing to this one. Canterbury Tail talk 12:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad you agree that does potentially limit involvement in the discussion. While Scolaire mentions that most people initially raise the issue on the Ireland or Republic of Ireland talk page, he also says that the discussion almost immediately gets rerouted here. That probably has the same net effect of limiting both visibility and participation in the discussion.

However long ago that ArbCom decision may have been made, it might be time to revisit it, if only temporarily. if there's an actual desire to take the temperature on current consensus, then I think it's quite frankly unlikely to happen as long as the discussion is limited to this page.

I do appreciate, whatever other differences of opinion we may have on the matter, that you both acknowledge my suggestions here have not been unreasonable. TempDog123 (talk) 06:26, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't accept that rerouting the discussion "has the same net effect of limiting both visibility and participation in the discussion". If there was a substantial number of people wanting change (i.e. enough people to overturn the consensus), they would see the request at the Ireland or ROI talk page, see that the discussion was moved, and follow the link to this page. Compare the current version of this page with this one, which I picked at random out of 34 archive pages(!), and see the amount of discussion and the number of people that contributed over a period of just three days. That simply wouldn't happen today.

I would have no problem with somebody asking ArbCom to change its ruling, and allow naming discussions to be held at the article talk pages. Scolaire (talk) 15:40, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Since TempDog123 raises the same point twice, I'll answer it twice. More often than not, requests to rename the pages are initially made on Talk:Ireland or Talk:Republic of Ireland, so people are aware of the request but do not turn up in numbers to overturn the consensus. To reiterate, consensus can change, but in this case it just hasn't. Sorry. Scolaire (talk) 13:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Also it's worth nothing that most requests to move the page are by drive by accounts with no real skin in the game, just new accounts or editors that fly by after being outraged at it, post some angry messages, and then leave with no actual desire to engage in actual real conversation or debate on the topic beyond a couple of hours. When this is the instigation and participation, it's no wonder that there isn't any further progress on anything. Canterbury Tail talk 13:19, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Credibility bot

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Misplaced Pages:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

ARCA

There is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Amendment request: Ireland article names about changing the notices to say discussion about the Ireland articles should take place on this project's talk page rather that the project page its self. I'm not suggesting any other changes are needed or that the articles should be moved. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:36, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Now that such discussions are allowed to take place on the island & the country talkpages? Maybe this WikiProject could be retired. Since there's already WP:IRELAND in existance. GoodDay (talk) 06:50, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Inevitably, some lover of drama or good-faith new editor will propose a move. Seeing as that will effect, at minimum, the Ireland, Republic of Ireland and Ireland (disambiguation) pages, it makes sense to have a "neutral" central place to have the discussion. There is also a lot of material here that people will want to link in any ensuing discussion. Bastun 10:44, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

"Retired" doesn't mean deleted. Linking to here in any future discussion may be useful, but moving the discussion to here would be directly counter to the ArbCom decision. Scolaire (talk) 13:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

PS: See here for links. Scolaire (talk) 13:42, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Categories:

• Project-Class Ireland pages
• NA-importance Ireland pages
• Project-Class Ireland articles of NA-importance
• All WikiProject Ireland pages
• Project-Class Northern Ireland-related pages
• NA-importance Northern Ireland-related pages
• All WikiProject Northern Ireland pages
• NA-Class Irish republicanism pages
• NA-importance Irish republicanism pages
• WikiProject Irish republicanism articles