| Revision as of 01:08, 9 August 2010 editFormerIP (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers17,570 edits →US Government Reaction← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 00:44, 20 December 2024 edit undoJas88 (talk | contribs)63 edits →Guede speaks: ReplyTag: Reply |
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== References == |
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==Guede speaks== |
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. He claims that Knox was present at the murder. Probably should be included in this article. ] (]) 23:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC) |
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{{reflist}} |
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== A Better Introduction == |
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:''Meredith Kercher was a 21 year old British exchange student who was murdered in Perugia, Italy on November 1, 2007. The killing shocked the medieval hill town where thousands of foreign college students come each year to study Italian language and culture. Three people have been convicted in the killing: Amanda Knox, a fellow exchange student and housemate of Kercher’s from the Seattle area; Rudy Guede, a petty criminal originally from the Ivory Coast; and Raffaele Sollecito, the son of a wealthy Italian doctor. The case received widespread media coverage and remains controversial because of questions about whether Knox and Sollecito received a fair trial.'' |
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:''Guede, who was linked to the crime by substantial physical evidence, was convicted in October 2008. The trial of Knox and Sollecito took place between January and December 2009 and was closely watched in both Europe and the United States. By the time of the guilty verdict on December 4, 2009 the trial and the police investigation had come under sharp attack in the United States. Shortly after the verdict which was shown live on US television members of the Washington Press Corp and at least one United States Senator were asking US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton if the US government planned to intervene.'' |
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:Note: TLC documentary says "petty criminal." Nadeau and Gary King book say drug sales so it's OK to use that term here. |
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:Note: Jill Dougherty on CNN 7-Dec-09 ''"Senior State Department officials tell CNN the US will review the trial but is being cautions about commenting while an appeals process is underway."] (]) 12:17, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::Think this is a decent proposal, but there are one or two things I would take issue with: |
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::Slightly too journalistic in style in a couple of places (eg "shocked the medieval hill town") |
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::"Petty criminal" is obviouslt in issue in other discussions, and even if it is contained in the TLC source, it appears to be contradicted elsewhere. |
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::"Substantial physical evidence" is true of all three killers, so it is misleading to highlight this in the case of Guede. |
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::"Under sharp attack" would quickly get a "who?" tag. |
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::--] (]) 13:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I took this out of the current lead: |
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::::''She was lying partially unclothed under a duvet in her bedroom. There was blood on the floor, bed and walls. Forensic pathologists concluded she had been choked, after which her throat was stabbed, causing fatal bleeding. Her body had 40 bruises and scratches, plus knife wounds on the neck and hands, and there was evidence of sexual assault.'' |
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:::On the basis that those details are contained later in the article and didn't really enhance the lead. |
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:::--] (]) 15:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Is it necessary to describe Sollecito's family as "wealthy" in the first paragraph? The term is rather vague, and furthermore what is its import? However, the last sentence of the first paragraph is a fair assessment. The current lead section would benefit from a few sentences summarising public reaction, but the second paragraph above (which aims for that) has a definite skew which lends prominence to Guede's guilt while omitting the evidence raised against Knox and Sollecito (the subject shifts to focus on reception in the media). Lumumba, as a former detainee, requires a mention, but his name is nowhere to be seen. ''']]]''' 18:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::I agree the article needs a better introduction. The one proposed may need a couple of minor edits but if it sounds a trifle “journalistic”, I think it’s certainly a lot closer to “encyclopedic” than the existing introduction. And perhaps it should say even more about the controversy. |
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::::There have been many tragic and brutal crimes within the past few years (as always). I don’t mean to minimize the tragedy of Meredith Kercher’s murder but most of them are unheard of outside the local area and are not recorded in Misplaced Pages or any other encyclopedia. The thing that makes this case internationally notable is the controversy over whether Knox and Sollecito received a fair trial or were unfairly prosecuted without proper cause or evidence. That fact needs to be brought out clearly in the introduction and not relegated to a paragraph toward the end of the article. (As a comparison, the article about The O.J. Simpson murder case brings up doubt about DNA evidence and allegations of police misconduct in the introduction.) |
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::::The article must not try to convince the reader that the allegations in the controversy are either right or wrong. But it should give due consideration to the fact the controversy exists so the reader can understand what it’s about and look elsewhere for more information or to engage in debate if desired. Certainly we should all agree that an encyclopedia article should be clear, concise, and totally factual, as well as unbiased. It should give a reader (even someone with no prior knowledge who quickly skims through it) an overview of the salient facts even if they don’t read through every section. I think this is a step in the right direction. ] (]) 19:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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{{outdent|::::}} I see no reason to have this in the lead: <i>"Shortly after the verdict which was shown live on US television members of the Washington Press Corp and at least one United States Senator were asking US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton if the US government planned to intervene."</i> ... the US Department of State <b>had</b> monitored the trial all along and at best, Senator Cantwell was shown to be ill-prepared and out of line with her open letter. Nothing has been heard from Senator Cantwell since the verdict, so it definitely does not belong in the lead. This is a case of ]. Both Senator Cantwell and the Department of State belong to "the US government", however the DoS has jurisdiction in this matter. ] (]) 20:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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: Yeah, agreed. I think the rewrite is OK with FormerIP's changes, with the second sentence (''"The killing shocked..."'') removed completely (it's tabloidy and unnecessary), and with the last sentence either removed, or shortened and merged with the previous one, i.e. ''"After the verdict, at least one United States Senator asked US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton whether the US government planned to intervene."'' The three guilty parties need to be mentioned equally in the lead; attempting to skew guilt towards Guede is a ] violation. Lumumba also needs to be mentioned, I'd say. ] ] 20:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::Although the present lead section offers a clear and concise run-through of the murder, trials and convictions, it summarises nothing below point 7 in the table of contents. The re-write that is needed here should endeavour to provide a brief overview of the whole text. A two-paragraph structure as PhanuelB proposes would be suitable — perhaps the first to contain basic historical facts, the second reserved for responses. Ending the introduction with a one-line mention of Clinton makes for a rather abrupt finish — other reactions could be noted, and the resulting lawsuits against various involved parties should also not be excluded. ''']]]''' 21:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::The lead needs to mention at least two or three of the reasons why the conviction of Knox and Sollecito remains controversial. Reasons that might fit here include the alleged abusive nature of Knox's interrogation, the early declaration by the police that the crime had been solved, massive pre trial publicity, unconventional handing of DNA evidence and key witnesses that came forward only months after the crime. The controversy over the verdict is after all the reason this murder is notable enough to include in Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 22:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::I think we can mention controversy in the lead, but this needs brevity, sourcing which is strong and clear, and balance. The lead is definitely not the place to directly argue the merits and weaknesses of the prosecution case. --] (]) 22:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::I also agree with the proposal to improve the introduction and also agree with the points made about improving PhanuelB's proposal. The tone should be less journalistic (eg the sections such as "the killing shocked the medieval hill town..." and " was closely watched in both Europe and the United States". we certainly shouldn't describe Guede as a criminal (he had no criminal convictions) and shouldn't imply that there was more evidence against him than the other defendants (opinion). The fact that the verdict was shown on US television and a US senator wrote to Hillary Clinton about it don't seem sufficiently significant aspects of the murder to warrant a place in the lead. Regarding the prominence we should give to the controversy, I honestly don't know what would be appropriate. Presumably we are talking here about the opinions expressed in reliable media sources, especially those in Italy, the UK and the US. Certainly a vast amount of the coverage of the case in news reports was factual and didn't express any obvious opinions. There was also a lot of the tabloidish focus on "Foxy Knoxy", her sex life, diaries, drugs, etc. In the UK I also read opinion pieces that questioned whether the court reached the right verdict and questioned the standard of proof required for a guilty verdict in Italy. However, these were a million miles from the "public lynching" opinions that PhanuelB has mentioned. They were also balanced by equally well-argued opinion pieces that presented Knox as being rightfully convicted. Perhaps some of the US-based <s>neutral</s> editors can give an assessment of how prominent the criticism of the case is in that country: to me it looks like a handful of very vocal people who have, for whatever reason, aligned themselves with the Knox family, but I may have got this wrong. We clearly have a difficult job to get the balance right, but it would certainly not be a balanced view to imply that criticism of the court has been the only reaction to the case. ] (]) 08:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::Slightly refactored. On re-reading that, it sounds like I'm saying that some US-based editors are not neutral! That was not my intention. ] (]) 13:50, 20 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:: <i>Perhaps some of the US-based neutral editors can give an assessment of how prominent the criticism of the case is in that country</i> ... whenever I casually mention the name Amanda Knox, most people barely remember the case, and those that do recall the case remember her as "the college student that killed her roommate". Unfortunately for us in America, there have been a series of college & high school violent episodes (Columbine, Virginia Tech, <i>et. al.</i>) and an accompanying drugs problem that is becoming more publicized. I think these two things lessen the shock value of such tragedies, and as there is always some new story coming right around the corner, people have forgetten about Amanda Knox. This is most evident in how every "new" story about Amanda Knox gets its comment section flooded with the same cut & paste arguments. ] (]) 12:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:: Have you also noticed that most of the cutting and pasting is done by one person? ] 09:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::: Hello Pablo, yes, I have indeed noticed that all the comments seem to be derived from a singular source, I was just trying to be a polite as possible! ] (]) 23:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::''"Perhaps some of the US-based neutral editors can give an assessment of how prominent the criticism of the case is in that country"''? First of all, the personal experiences of other editors is not how Misplaced Pages works. It's supposed to be a consolodation of what reliable sources are saying. And that is not what is happening now. When a source is presented, a litmus test is applied. If the source has the wrong POV he gets ignored. Now for some ]. Let's cut the crap. There aren't any neutral editors here and there aren't any neutral administrators. Why not just admit it? At this point those who believe in guilt are up about 3 to 2. ] (]) 20:28, 31 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::I am neutral, and have done a lot of tidying & copyediting since the early days of the article. But I find I have to take long rests from it these days, such is the endless controversy. But since you mentioned it... ] (]) 20:39, 31 July 2010 (UTC) |
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There is absolutely no coverage or mention of this case in the U.S. at this time. If you Google, Amanda Knox, you'll see that there are virtually no news stories that have been written this year about this case. Senator Maria Cantwell has not said a single word about this case during the entire year. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has still never once commented on this case. If there is criticism of the case in this case, it's invisible. Except for a few blogs that are dedicated to the case. But the site traffic on those blogs has dwindled to less than zero. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:The above post is pure fantasy and illustrates how some will report not what reliable sources say but what they want to believe. TLC Documentary, 4 books, Trump, dozens of newspaper articles. The US State Department has said they will not comment while the appeals process is ongoing. ] (]) 21:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::Until such time as further official comment is made, there isn't much more that can be added to the article on the issue of US executive or senatorial involvement. Also, claiming WP:IAR as an excuse for berating other editors on their (supposed) lack of a neutral perspective is not really that ], is it? You have been warned about this before; please do not continue to post messages that contain a hostile tone. ''']]]''' 22:20, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::The notable event is that the Washington Press Corp was asking the US Secretary of State if she planned to intervene. I know of no other non-political criminal case where this has occured in the last 50 years in a modern western democracy. The US State Department has NOT said they think the trial was fair. They have said they would not comment while the appeals proccess is underway. BTW... asking for neutral editors to comment on something does imply that some aren't neutral.] (]) 19:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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I was actually watching the Sunday morning news program, the Sunday after the verdict, when Clinton was asked about the Knox case. The expression on her face made it clear that she had not a clue who Knox was. Her answer also made it clear that she had no idea who Knox was. She has not been asked about the case since then. Not once. |
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::::Is this assertion of the absence of precedent in the last half-century attributable to a source? I'm not arguing that the current facts of the governmental connection to the subject matter should be removed from the article, and I accept that the point is notable. ''']]]''' 23:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::The "current facts of the governmental connection" are not in the article. Senator Maria Cantwell stated that the judge and jury were not impartial -- strong words in the legal community. The reference to anti-Americanism was a minor point. This reminds me of the tortured passage above about The witness saying he only knew of the burglary of his law office because Rudy Guede told him about it. The words are being painfully twisted to make a point 100% opposed to what all the reliable sources are saying. ] (]) 02:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Material about Mignini == |
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I just deleted a new paragraph that had been added about Mignini. It began "Prosecutor Mignini has a history of bringing false charges against people" which accusation would require a great deal better citations than were given! It also included things like "...prosecutor Mignini decided that..." which implies that the source knows a great deal about Mignini's thought processes. In any case, none of the material added was concerned with the trial of Knox and Sollecito, so I'd question its relevance. OK, so someone's made a Bold edit; I've Reverted; can we Discuss (])? ] (]) 07:33, 30 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:For a number of reasons that specific edit was revertible. Questions of Mignini's conduct in related cases calls into question his judgment and fitness to hold office in Amanda's case and this has been pointed out by numerous reliable secondary sources. Such issues are best summarized on this page and discussed in detail on a page dedicated to Mignini. Doug Preston's firsthand account of his interrogation by Mignini (CNN AC360 5-Dec-09) refers to him as "crazy" and "obsessed." According to Preston, Mignini accused Preston of being an accessory to murder. That's a joke; Preston and Spezi weren't doing anything to keep a serial killer out of jail. And Ohhhhh yes that has everything to do with Amanda's case. |
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:Doug Preston is of course one of a number of banned subjects for this article. Others include Rudy's criminal acts prior to the murder and the condemnation of the trial in the days following the verdict by numerous reliable secondary sources on US cable channels. See also Anna Momigliano's Dec-09 article in Foreign Policy Magazine that very much states that this case is all about putting the Italian Judicial System on trial. I've been busy lately, but don't worry we're headed for arbitration. ] (]) 11:51, 30 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::Mignini is a non-notable figure. Yes, he holds a senior position within the criminal justice system of Perugia, but this doesn't entitle him to his own article. A reminder that BLP also applies on talkpages. The investigation against him is already referred to in the article, but we don't need the whole history. If we do, we also need balance, which given the history of the page will mean citing every reason why he's a creep followed by every reason why the source in question is not to be taken at face value which, empahtically, would not be an improvement to the article. Arbitration? Can't wait. I assume you're aware you will need to show other attempts to resolve any issues there are, though. --] (]) 12:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Mignini is of course not a notable figure because of accomplishment. He is notable because of his notoriety. It's fair to say he is the most heavily criticized judicial figure in post-war Europe. The reliable sources that say this (a dozen commentators appearing on CBS,NBC,CNN, TLC, which I have repeatedly cited previously) have been banned from this article. |
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:::Misplaced Pages has pages for literally hundreds of US judges and prosecutors both sitting and from the past. The page for America's counterpart of Mignini,Mike Nifong, is longer than the MK page. And the criticism is in three separate cases: His criminal conviction mostly to do with the MOF case, the MK trial, and his handling of Spezi and Preston which provoked the ire of human rights groups such as the New York based Committee to Protect Journalists. Events related to Spezi and Preston were NOT part of the criminal case against him BTW. Of course he gets a page. A reminder ] also relates to AK and RS. ] (]) 19:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Repeated claims that sources have been "banned" will do rather little to advance the argument being made here. The worthiness of these sources respective to their inclusion in the article has been evaluated and discounted in previous threads. Talk pages are not the place to label biographical subjects "notorious" in accordance with the BLP policies — however, I do not see defamation of the convicts Knox and Sollecito on this page. And, on the subject of the prosecutor's independent noteworthiness, there is a the ] counter-argument. ''It's fair to say he is the most heavily criticized judicial figure in post-war Europe'' — oh really? ''']]]''' 22:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::Mignini's conviction for abuse of office and his other strange behaviors such as the arrest of ] are all related to his investigation of the ] case. Instead of creating a separate article for Mignini, I would suggest first updating the MOF article by translating the Italian Misplaced Pages article and then adding more details about Mignini to the section on the Narducci wild goose chase. --] (]) 23:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Get the idea in principle, Footwarrior, but think the type of material being talked about would be equally wrong inserted over there. Mignini didn't work on the Monster of Florence case and he's a very tangential figure in relation to it (notice how he isn't mentioned in the Italian article). It would be be total ] to expand that article just so a place can be found for non-notable BLP violations that an editor can't get inserted into this one. --] (]) 23:36, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::You need to talk to the court in Florence who convicted Mignini of abuse of office in connection to the Monster of Florence case and show them your evidence that he didn't work on the case. --] (]) 01:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::No I don't. He didn't work on the case. If you don't believe me, do some research. --] (]) 01:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::I did do some research and that is why I don't believe you. --] (]) 02:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::You clearly didn't. Mignini didn't work on the Monster of Florence case. He worked on the Narducci case, a different case where there seems to have been some sort of obscure theory of a link but which turned out to be unconnected. |
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:::::::ie Mignini is a hopelessly tangential figure in relation to the Monster of Florence case, and so that is not an appropriate place to dump a laundry list of allegations against him. --] (]) 02:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::The Narducci case was a suicide that Mignini claimed was a coverup for the MOF case. That is why the Italian Misplaced Pages article has a section on the Narducci investigation. Mignini's abuse of office conviction was for illegal wiretaps done to prove the coverup. Mignini also arrested Mario Spezi on charges of interfering with the MOF investigation. When a prosecutor files charges and has people arrested, it's not tangential to an investigation. --] (]) 02:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::No, it is not tangential to the ], but it is tangential to the ] investigation. --] (]) 03:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::PS Mignini was not convicted for illegal wiretapping. Per ] you should remove that false allegation and do some research as to the actual facts of the case. --] (]) 03:26, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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: Facts that can be verified are not false allegations and do not violate ], see ]. Source for my claim about Mignini's conviction.. --] (]) 04:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::My understanding is that the wiretaps in question were not ruled illegal in themselves, it was the way in which the evidence was handled. So I think the wire story (edit: just noticed the Freudian slip there) you have is inaccurate. But that's a side-issue. The main point is that he is not notable enough for his own article and there should also not be a POV fork into the Murder of Florence article, because POV forks are a bad thing and because he is not notable enough in relation to that article either. There particularly should not be a POV-fork created with the unusual belief in mind that Mignini is "the most heavily criticized judicial figure in post-war Europe". --] (]) 16:21, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I can't think of a European judicial figure who has been ridiculed and dragged through the mud on cable channels broadcast throughout the world in the way that Mignini has. Name somebody who's more heavily criticized. In the years following WWII there were probably figures who's wartime records caught up with them, particularly in Germany, but that isn't what we're talking about. There would of course also be those who were removed from office for various common violations of the law, but that doesn't result in an international debate about them and it probably doesn't call into question the quality of their past work in court. Reliable secondary sources say there IS a nexus between Mignini's crackpot theories in the MOF case (Preston an accessory to murder for example) and his crackpot theories in Amanda's case (Amanda directing Rudy to assault Meredith.) There's a litmus test here, if a reliable source says something it gets thrown out if it's not what somebody wanted to hear. I think this Misplaced Pages page violates NPOV. ] (]) 19:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Banning of Reliable Sources Violates WP:BLP for Amanda == |
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First of all, let's clear any confusion about whether previous statements about Mignini are out of line. Here are the ] who are :"dragging him through the mud" on cable channels seen throughout the world. Let's see another European judicial figure who's been criticized like this in broadcasts seen or read by this many people. |
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FormerIP writes: ''"Substantial physical evidence" is true of all three killers, so it is misleading to highlight this in the case of Guede."'' Three killers are strong words so a comprehensive citation of reliable sources that disagree is legitimate. |
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The following are ]. To ignore them is to violate Amanda's ] rights. |
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:Anna Momigliano (Foreign Policy Magazine 10-Dec-09) |
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:''"U.S. cable shows declared the verdict a sham, shredding the evidence and the court's conduct. And now, the Knox case is turning into an international trial on the reliability of Italy's justice system."'' |
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:''"Speculating wildly, prosecutor Giuliano Mignini accused Knox of harboring hatred against Meredith until the time came for taking revenge, and drunkenly attempting to drag Kercher into heavy sexual games."'' |
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:Paul Ciolino (Private Investigator retained by CBS speaking on 48 Hours) |
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:''“I’ll probably get indicted in Italy for saying this. I don’t care. He is ruining the lives of two kids who have done nothing.”'' |
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:''"They’re so desperate to make a case against this kid that they’ll do anything.”'' |
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:Doug Preston (commentator for CBS, CNN, and NBC) |
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:''“he interrogated me. He accused me of committing horrendous crimes including being an accessory to murder…. I’m a professional journalist; I have a very good memory; I know what happened in that interrogation.”'' |
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:''“this prosecutor thinks he knows what happened at that crime scene. The facts don’t matter to him.”'' |
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:Steve Moore (Retired FBI Agent) |
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:''"In the U.S., this type of prosecutorial misconduct would almost certainly have resulted in a mistrial, and likely jail time for the prosecutor."'' |
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:Judge Michael Heavey (12-Aug-08) |
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:''“The prosecutor’s office, police and prison employees have made illegal and false statements to the press. These false reports have wrongfully poisoned the well of public opinion against Amanda."'' |
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:Tim Egan (NY Times correspondent) |
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:''"Preposterous, made-up sexual motives were ascribed to her...What century is this? Didn’t Joan of Arc, the Inquisition and our own American Salem witch trials teach civilized nations a thing or two about contrived sexual hysteria with a devil twist?"'' |
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:Judy Bachrach (Guest on CNN) |
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:''"I have always thought that Amanda was going to go to a Kangaroo court and unfortunately I’ve been proven correct."'' |
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:''"there isn't a scintilla of evidence.. the prosecutor is famously incompetent."'' |
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:John Q Kelly (Guest on CNN Larry King Live) |
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:''"This case is probably the most egregious international railroading of two innocent young people that I have ever seen... This is actually a public lynching based on rank speculation and vindictiveness."'' |
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:Donald Trump (Real Estate Magnate) |
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:''"This is a miscarriage of justice. I think the president should absolutely get involved and I think people should boycott Italy."'' |
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:Peter Van Sant (CBS News Correspondent) |
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:''“We have concluded that Amanda Knox is being railroaded.”'' |
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:''“She’s an innocent woman. And I would stake my reputation as a journalist and I have been in this business for a quarter century.”''] (]) 23:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::We've had this discussion here before, started in pretty much the same way. I think it would be useful to know if you have anything to say that is either new or more specific. --] (]) 23:28, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::] applies once more, it seems. How does being a guest on a talk show make one's opinions on a court case more authoritative and meriting inclusion? What legal experience does Donald Trump, a "real estate magnate" have? So much as to place him on an even keel with officials of an Italian court? How is Preston, a horror author, qualified to offer definitive analysis? A fresh surge of sensationalist, tabloid-ish pseudo-commentaries is not needed here at this time. If one wanted to assess the theory of global warming and how accurate it is, would the best source for authoritative comment be a mass of media personalities who know nothing of science? ''']]]''' 00:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::: <i>"Paul Ciolino (Private Investigator <b>retained by CBS</b> speaking on 48 Hours)" </i> This is what makes the CBS documentary <i>48 Hours</i> not a ], it is essentially a self-funded and ]. CBS is not presenting news in a journalistic manner as it would on the ], rather, CBS is manufacturing the news. That is why many documentaries should be considered in a similar manner to blogosphere, almost all of which is self-published. ] (]) 22:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC) |
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{{cot|Collapsing comment, tone is completely unacceptable and in breach of collegiality. ] ''<sup>'''(''']''')'''</sup>'' 13:26, 5 August 2010 (UTC)}} |
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:::::I guess CBS fails the litmus test. The documentary says what somebody doesn't want to hear so it can't be a reliable source. This documentary has been nominated for an Emmy Award. That means it has respect within the journalistic community -- period. It is not "self-published", "making the news", "self funded", or "blogosphere." The CBS 48 Hours segment talks of a public lynching, hate, and hysteria, the same theme echoed by the dozen or so reliable sources that I have named. Please also consider that an Emmy Award nomintated CBS documentary is the single item (out of 10) that they choose to challenge. Misplaced Pages needs to take a hard look at what is happening here. The "consensus" of a dozen or so people is diabolically opposed to what all the reliable sources are saying. The reliable sources banned from this article talk of public lynchings, hate, and witch trial hysteria. If Misplaced Pages gets burned on this one they will have earned it.] (]) 12:31, 5 August 2010 (UTC) |
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{{cob}} |
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::::::Winning an entertainment award does not guarantee that a documentary contains reliable content. A sensationalist tone is perhaps enough to convince some of the "truth", but would a cold, hard, clinical look at the facts of the case, avoiding added melodrama, really bode well for a programme's chances at the Emmies? Is it a case of style rather than substance? Legal journals would be preferable to an influx of plain media sources which, to a greater extent or less, spout populist, rather than specialist, opinion. It is also not just the CBS retrospective that concerns me among the 10 sources detailed above. ''']]]''' 13:43, 5 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::Just to note: I think the claim of censorship or suppressing sources is a bit of a red herring here. There is already a fair amount in the article covering the general topic Phanuel is talking about (ie support for Amanda Knox by her family, within the media and by public figures). We can't include every word ever spoken on the matter. I am not sure what Phanuel is proposing, but if it is anything it must be something to do with ]. --] (]) 14:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC) |
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{{outdent|:::::}} Besides, that CBS <i>48 Hours</i> documentary is more notable for having an unethical producer that is in jail for the ]. The Emmy Award nomination is more likely to have been given to tap into that buzz surrounding the potential to award to someone in prison. ] (]) 16:09, 5 August 2010 (UTC) |
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==Link for Facebook Members who may want to edit this article== |
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Greetings! As many of you may know, Facebook recently reached its 500 million member mark! As Facebook has grown, it has added new features to accommodate the interests, talents and abilities of its members. |
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In April of 2010, Facebook and Misplaced Pages entered into an arrangement to incorporate some of the Misplaced Pages content onto Facebook, so that Facebook members and Misplaced Pages can mutually benefit and Facebook members will come over here to write and edit. |
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"Misplaced Pages articles on Facebook will further increase the reach of free knowledge on the internet. Facebook has hundreds of millions of users, and now more than 70% of their traffic is coming from outside of the US. Our hope is that many Facebook users (if they are not already) will also be inclined to join the large community of Misplaced Pages contributors. Facebook will follow the free licenses (CC-BY-SA) and help us find more ways people can share knowledge. Furthermore, we will be looking at other ways that both parties can cooperate in the future." |
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You can read more about this here: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-April/057598.html |
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and here: |
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http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/21721 |
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Because it is likely that many more Facebook members will become interested in participating in Misplaced Pages, including on this article, it would be helpful to have a link to the Facebook page on the Misplaced Pages side. That way, when Facebook members come over here to write and edit on the Murder of Meredith Kercher/Amanda Knox article, they will be able to click back and forth between the two sites. There is already a link to this article on the Facebook side to facilitate members coming over here to write and edit. |
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I did try to add that link, but it was deleted. I hope that the editors here will reconsider and allow the link to be added. Misplaced Pages can only benefit from mutual collaboration from the 500 million Facebook members from around the world. The Facebook page on this article is totally neutral, in that all points of view are allowed equally. It is not an advocacy page for any particular side. |
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I will leave the decision in your good hands and hope that after you have made your decision, someone would be so kind as to restore the link. Thanks ever so much. ] (]) 01:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:Linking to social networking pages is explicitly prohibited by ], #10. Further, I doubt that an article that is already highly contentious will benefit from a massive influx of inexperienced editors jumping straight into this one. ] ''<sup>'''(''']''')'''</sup>'' 08:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::Misplaced Pages chose to create an alliance with Facebook for a reason so they have no interest in hiding this page. Misplaced Pages benefits from greater participation not less, particularly in this case where the deviations from the views of published sources are so egregious. When the article is written from a NPOV then they will not have problems with an influx of those who see a problem in need of action. ] (]) 12:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Less ] and more factual, sourced and diff-based arguments please, thank you. ] ''<sup>'''(''']''')'''</sup>'' 13:09, 5 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Events surrounding the murder. == |
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I replaced the text about turning off cell phones with the witness seeing AK at RS's place. RS answered his phone at 8:42 and talked to his father for a few minutes, so he could not have turned off his phone at 8:40 as the article stated. Cell phone records also can't prove someone is at an address, only that they are in range of the cell tower. --] (]) 02:49, 6 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== New Section on Criticism == |
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This section should replace the "Media Coverage" and "Support for Knox" Sections |
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==Criticism of the Knox Sollecito Trial== |
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===US Television Commentary=== |
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''The Knox Sollecito verdict was covered live on US cable channels and was met with harsh criticism.<ref>{{cite journal |last=Momigliano |first=Anna |journal=Foreign Policy Magazine |title=Can Anyone get a Fair Trial in Italy |date=10-Dec-2009 |url=http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/12/10/can_anyone_get_a_fair_trial_in_italy |quote=U.S. cable shows declared the verdict a sham, shredding the evidence and the court's conduct. And now, the Knox case is turning into an international trial on the reliability of Italy's justice system.}} </ref> On CNN ] legal commentator John Q. Kelly dismissed the trial as a “gross injustice”<ref>{{cite video |url=http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/04/lkl.01.html |title=Larry King Live |date=7-Dec-2009 |people=John Q. Kelly |quote=this is just beyond the pale, Larry. The manipulation of evidence, the unfavorable inferences drawn from most common of circumstances and conduct was just a gross injustice here}} </ref> while a second guest, Judy Bachrach, termed it a “kangaroo court.”<ref>{{cite video |url=http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/04/lkl.01.html |title=Larry King Live |date=7-Dec-2009 |people=Judy Bachrach |quote=I have always felt that Amanda was going to a kangaroo court and unfortunately I've been proven correct}}</ref>'' |
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''In a CBS ] documentary broadcast following the verdict, author ] characterized the case as “based on lies, superstition, and crazy conspiracy theories.”<ref>{{cite video |url= http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/08/48hours/main4929950.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody |title= American Girl, Italian Nightmare |publisher=CBS |date=6-Dec-2009 |people=Douglas Preston |quote=you cannot believe the hysteria, the anger against Amanda Knox...this is a case based on lies, superstition, and crazy conspiracy theories, and that's it}}</ref> On ], journalist Peter Van Sant appeared on the ] and compared the trial to the ]<ref>{{cite video |people=Peter Van Sant |date=14-Dec-2009 |title=O'Reilly Factor |publisher=Fox News |quote=This is the Duke Lacrosse Case all over again...Bill I'm telling you with all of my journalistic profession behind me and all of my integrity this woman is totally innocent }}</ref>. Political commentator ] appeared on a subsequent segment and advocated guilt.<ref>{{cite video |people=Anne Coulter |date=14-Dec-2009 |title=O'Reilly Factor |publisher=Fox News |quote=Her boyfriend's bloody fingerprint was found on the bra strap of the murder victim }}</ref> Other commentators included journalist/author Barbie Latza Nadeau who saw the evidence as weak but disagreed with stronger criticism of the trial''<ref>{{cite web |url= http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/07/acd.01.html |title=CNN AC360 |date=7-Dec-2009 |author= Barbie Nadeau |quote =the defense didn't do a great job of knocking down the prosectuion's weak case.}} </ref> and former judge ] who challenged the claim that there was no evidence. |
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===Police Investigation=== |
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''In a series of articles published on one of four advocacy web sites about the case (two for guilt <ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.truejustice.org/ |title=True Justice for Meredith Kercher}}</ref><ref >{{cite web |url=http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/ |title= Perugia Murder File}}</ref>, two against<ref name="InjusticeIP">{{cite web |url=http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/ |title=Injustice in Perugia}}</ref> <ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.friendsofamanda.org/ |title=Friends of Amanda}}</ref>), a recently retired career FBI agent named Steve Moore condemned the police work and called for the criminal prosecution of law enforcement officials involved in the case. His articles focused on the improper use of luminol, flawed interrogation techniques, and the misinterpretation of physical evidence.<ref name="InjusticeIP"></ref>'' |
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''Other criticism of the police work included: (1) The failure to notify the victim’s family in a timely fashion<ref>{{cite book |last=Nadeau |first=Barbie |publisher=Beast Books |year=2010 |page=57 |quote=John called the foreign desk of the ''Daily Mirror'' and asked what they had heard...The name going around Italy was Meredith}}</ref>; (2) the failure to recover important physical evidence until 47 days after the crime; (3) the failure to measure the victim’s body temperature<ref>{{cite book |last=Dempsey |first=Candace |title=Murder in Italy |year=2010 |page=94 |quote=the forensic police hadn't allowed him to take a temperature reading until their own tasks were completed...more than twelve hours after Meredith's body was found}}</ref>; (3) the failure to examine an apparent semen stain found underneath the victim; (4) the failure to test Luminol identified foot prints for the presence of blood; (5) the failure to videotape important interrogation sessions<ref>{{cite video |url=http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/04/acd.02.html |title=Anderson Cooper AC360 |people=Douglas Preston |date=4-Dec-2009 |quote=The police first claimed that they'd lost the videotape or the audiotape of the interrogation. And then they claimed that they never made one to begin with, and then they claimed that they don't even have a transcript of this interrogation. |
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}}</ref>; and (6) the failure to interview a possibly important witness, Nara Cappezelli, until months after the crime.''<ref>{{cite video |title=A Long Way from Home |publisher=CBS 48 Hours |date=14-April-2008 |people=Peter Van Sant |quote=Nara also didn't know what time she heard the sounds but she was very clear about one thing...she says she was never interviewed by the police}}</ref> |
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===Failure to Arrest Rudy Guede Prior to the Murder=== |
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''Rudy Guede had no criminal convictions at the time of the murder. However, in the weeks leading up to the crime he had participated in a series of criminal acts which Italian police knew about but for reasons that remain unclear did not act upon. Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini has conceded that Guede should already have been in jail when the murder took place leading to questions of whether Meredith Kercher would still be alive if police had done their jobs properly.''<ref name="BGraham"> {{cite web |url=http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/170053/Killer-of-Meredith-Kercher-s-crimes-were-ignored |title=Killer or Meredith Kercher Crimes were Ignored |author=Bob Graham |date=19-April-2010 |publisher=UK Express |quote= had committed six serious crimes over 33 days before the killing. But robberies carried out were ignored by Italian authorities...Even Giuliano Mignini...says Guede should have been in jail when Meredith, 21, from Coulsdon, Surrey, was killed. |
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}}</ref> |
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''The similarities between Guede’s modus-operandi in his break-ins prior to the murder and what was observed at the crime scene was central to arguments made by lawyers for Knox and Sollecito that Guede had committed the murder alone.''<ref> {{cite book |last=Dempsey |first=Candace |title=Murder in Italy |date=2010 |publisher=Berkley Press |page=299 |quote=the defense never let the jury forget Rudy's modus operandi. It was a textbook reflection of the Kercher case they claimed: He entered through windows. He carried a knife. He stole cell phones.}}</ref> |
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:It's already noted that he initially denied she was there (on the police tape) then changed his story on that point. ] (]) 00:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
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''By some reports Guede was known by Italian police to have committed six crimes in the 33 days prior to the murder.<ref name="BGraham"></ref> In a deposition submitted at trial Cristian Tramontano described how he had found Guede prowling around his house while he slept. In the incident, which was reported to police and witnessed by Tramontano’s girlfriend, Guede brandished a knife in his escape.''<ref>{{cite web |url=http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7946289&page=2 |title=School Owner Testifies in Knox Trial that Convicted Killer Stole Knife |date=27-June-2009 |publisher=ABC News}}</ref> |
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== links to original case files and documents] (]) 00:07, 13 January 2020 (UTC) == |
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''Only four days prior to the murder Guede was caught alone, prowling around a Milan nursery school as the owner, Maria Del Prato, arrived in the morning. Police found Guede to be in possession of a laptop and cell phone stolen from a Perugian law office a few weeks earlier. He also had a large knife in his backpack which he had taken from the nursery school kitchen.<ref>{{cite video |title=The Trials of Amanda Knox |date=28-Mar-2010 |publisher=TLC Documentary |quote=I walked up the stairs and I found a man coming out of my office and I was shocked...they found in his backpack a knife that he had stolen from our kitchen...We all had the feeling that he was a dangerous person |people=Maria Del Prato}}</ref> Police did not detain Guede but instead put him back on a train to Perugia. The Perugian law office break-in was significant because: (1) The entry was through a second story window that had been broken with a rock, and (2) a cell phone had been stolen. Defense attorneys also pointed out that in these acts, he had no accomplices and was armed with a knife.''<ref>{{cite journal |url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-27/at-knox-trial-the-killer-speaks/?cid=hp:blogunit1 |journal=Daily Beast |last=Nadeau |first=Barbie |date=27-Jun-2009 |title=At Knox Trial, the Lone Convict |quote=Late on the night of October 13, 2007, Guede broke into a law office and stole a Nokia cellphone and Sony Vaio computer. He smashed a window about 10 feet above the ground with a large rock, then scaled the wall, unlatched the window and crawled in}}</ref> |
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Hi fellow Wikipedians, |
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===Giuliano Mignini=== |
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I have posted online 1000s of documents related to the murder case including police investigation reports, prosecutor files, defense team reports, courtroom testimony, court motivation reports, etc. The website is http:/www.themurderofmeredithkercher.net. Is it okay to put links to some of the original case files? |
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''The prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, had had a controversial past that called into question his judgment and actions in the Amanda Knox case. Mignini’s January 2010 conviction for abuse of office dealt with his actions in the ] case. His critics claimed that in both the MOF case and in Amanda's case he had a penchant for outlandish theories unsupported by evidence and employed questionable interrogation techniques. |
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There are also a few minor mistakes in the otherwise good article (as one example: Meredith didn't have seven knife wounds; she suffered two major knife wounds and 10 minor ones and at least 39 distinct bruises.) I can provide links to the original autopsy report and a few of the follow-up consultant reports. Any report, presentation, photo or video the website has been censored out of respect for the Kercher family. |
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''Independent of that criminal conviction was his harassment of two authors writing a book about the MOF case, ] and ], who had been critical of his work. Mignini had Spezi jailed for several weeks and Preston was forced to leave the country. The New York based ] issued a statement condemning Mignini’s actions in the case.<ref>{{cite web |title=Committee to Protect Journalists Statement |date=19-April-2006 |url=http://cpj.org/2006/04/crime-journalists-imprisonment-raises-alarm.php |quote=Spezi and Preston...directly criticized Giuttari and Mignini for pursuing a focus not backed by forensic evidence...The persecution of Mario Spezi and his U.S. colleague Douglas Preston, who is afraid to travel to Italy for fear of prosecution, sends a dangerous message to Italian journalists}}</ref> Mignini at one point had called Preston in for an interrogation. In a series of television appearances about the Amanda Knox case, Preston ridiculed Mignini and said that during his own interrogation Mignini had accused him of being an accessory to murder.<ref>{{cite video |url=http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/04/acd.02.html |title=Anderson Cooper AC360 |people=Douglas Preston |date=4-Dec-2009 |quote=he accused me of being an accessory to murder. He accused me of involvement in satanic rites and satanic sects...And so this is a very abusive prosecutor. He makes up theories.}}</ref> Mignini’s interrogation methods with Preston were compared to his and his associate’s controversial interrogation of Amanda Knox.'' <ref>{{cite video |title=American Girl, Italian Nightmare |publisher=CBS 48 Hours |date=8-Apr-2009 |url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/08/48hours/main4929950_page4.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody |people=Peter Van Sant |quote=Preston experienced the same harsh interrogation techniques that were used on Amanda and led to her false confession and to putting her in jail in the first place}}</ref>'' |
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I'm not sure if linking to 'original' case documents is acceptable in this particular case. |
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===Leaks to the Press and the HIV Test=== |
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Thanks for your efforts! Marcello |
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''Prior to trial the prosecution leaked large amounts of information about the case to the press. Some of this information was false. These leaks were criticized as an effort to influence public opinion prior to trial.<ref name="Heavey"></ref> Particularly controversial was the October 2008 release by police of autopsy photos of the victim’s arms intended to show that multiple attackers had participated in the crime.''<ref> See Perugia Shock Oct-08 </ref> |
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== Murder of Meredith Kercher edit warring == |
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''Shortly after her arrest Amanda Knox was given an HIV test and was told that the results were positive but would require further verification. She was later told that she did not have HIV. In the interim she made entries in her prison diary which listed all of the sexual partners in her life. Prison officials provided these diary pages to the European tabloid press.<ref>{{cite book |last=Nadeau |first=Barbie |title=Angel Face| |publisher=Beast Books |year=2010 |quote=one of the detectives close to the case leaked the document to British tabloid reporter Nick Pisa. |page=28}}</ref> The tabloids reported that she had had sex with seven Italian men during her short time in Italy even though the diary entries said no such thing. In Angel Face, Barbie Latza Nadeau states that the false HIV positive result was a trick used to collect evidence and was not based on a medical result. The incident was seen as an attempt by police to influence public opinion prior to the trial.<ref>{{cite book |last=Nadeau |first=Barbie |title=Angel Face |publisher=Beast Books |year=2010 |quote=After she was arrested, police set a trap for Amanda by telling her she had tested positive for HIV. This type of psychological trickery is commonly used in Italy.}}</ref>'' |
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] ] |
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===The Jury=== |
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<blockquote> |
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''According to multiple eye-witness accounts, jurors regularly slept while court was in session.<ref>{{cite video |title=CNN AC360 with Anderson Cooper |people=Madison Paxton |date=4-Dec-2009 |quote= When I was there, I saw -- every single day I was in court, I saw jury members sleeping through Amanda's defense. |
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:::'''Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher: Revision history''' |
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|url=http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/04/acd.02.html}}</ref> Jurors were not prohibited from reading news reports about the case and were free to talk about the case among themselves.<ref>{{cite video |people=Peter Van Sant |title=CBS News |date=6-Dec-09 |quote=jurors there believe it or not are allowed to deliberate with one another throughout the case...they do not sequester so they were subject tho this avalance of negative tabloid reporting that much of which were complete lies}}</ref> According to an account by Barbie Nadeau jurors were insulted after they learned of a New York Times editorial by Tim Egan that sharply criticized the trial.<ref>{{cite web |title=Daily Beast Online Chat |first=Barbie |last=Nadeau |date=6-Apr-10 |url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-04-06/reader-chat-the-daily-beast-hosts-barbie-nadeau-author-of-angel-face/ |quote=I was in Perugia when those op-ed pieces came out and they were not helpful to Amanda. The prosecutor was angry, the jury members were insulted }}</ref> Particularly troubling was a statement made by one of the jurors following the verdict that appeared to indicate she did not know that the standard for guilt was proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Juror Angela Irene Ceccarini stated: “It was hard to see Knox and Sollecito doing this, but it was possible. People can all let things get out of control; we can all drink too much then get in a car and drive.”<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/06/meredith-kercher-family-guilty-verdict |title=Meredith Kercher Family Reacts to Guilty Verdict |publisher=Guardian UK |date=6-Dec-2009}}</ref>'' |
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*2021-08-14T16:28:22 '''Binksternet''' talk contribs 2,981 bytes −1,854 →edit warring: rv... that's not for the article talk page undothank Tag: Manual revert |
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*2021-08-14T16:25:16 '''0mtwb9gd5wx''' talk contribs 4,835 bytes +1,854 →Murder of Meredith Kercher edit warring: User:Lard Almighty User:Binksternet undo Tag: Reverted |
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===US Government Reaction=== |
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</blockquote> |
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<blockquote> |
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:::'''User talk:0mtwb9gd5wx''' |
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You may be '''] without further warning''' the next time you violate Misplaced Pages's ] by edit warring, as you did at ]. <!-- Template:uw-npov4 --> '''User:Binksternet''' |
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''Immediately following the verdict US Senator Maria Cantwell, from Knox’s home state of Washington, released a statement in which she indicated her opinion that Ms. Knox had not received a fair trial by an impartial tribunal. She also appeared on CNN and stated her intention to contact Italian authorities, the European Union, and US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.'' |
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</blockquote> |
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<blockquote> |
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''Shortly after the verdict, Secretary of State Clinton was asked on ABC This Week with George Stephanopoulos if the US Government planned to intervene. <ref>{{cite web |url=http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/week-full-transcript-dec-2009/story?id=9262010&page=4 |title=This Week with George Stephanopoulos |date=6-Dec-2009}} </ref> In subsequent State Department briefings, members of the Washington Press Corp also asked how the US government would respond. The US government has indicated that it would be “cautious about commenting while an appeals process is underway.”'' <ref>{{cite video |url=http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/07/sitroom.03.html |people=Jill Dougherty |date=7-Dec-2009 |publisher=CNN |title=The Situation Room |quote=Senior State Department Officials tell CNN the US will review the trial but is being cautious about commenting while an appeals proccess is underway}}</ref> |
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:::'''User talk:Binksterne''' |
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'''0mtwb9gd5wx''', the ] is on you to gather consensus for your additions by starting a talk page discussion. You can't just keep adding your preferred version after others have removed it, no matter how many warnings you deliver to the people opposing you. When there is a dispute about article content, the disputed material stays out until consensus is clear to put it in. Your next move is to argue your case on the talk page. '''Binksternet''' (talk) 23:27, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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''Prior to the trial Seattle area Superior Court Judge Michael Heavey had spoken out about the case and written letters to Perugian Judicial officials on State of Washington Court stationary. Judge Heavey’s daughter had been friends with Amanda Knox in high school. In a July 2008 letter he stated:''<ref name="Heavey">{{cite web |url=http://www.cjc.state.wa.us/CJC_Activity/open_complaints.htm |title=State of Washington Commission on Judicial Conduct}}</ref> |
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</blockquote> |
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::{{u|Lard Almighty}}{{u|Binksternet}} , I have not added my preferred version, I corrected deficiencies, and added improvements based on similar articles. The complaints you made were you made were implemented, yet {{u|Lard Almighty}}{{u|Binksternet}} still deleted a string of all my edits with '''etc''' as your only reason. Why dont you complain about each delete separately ? ] (]) 23:56, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
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{{Quote|''“The prosecutor’s office, police and prison employees have made illegal and false statements to the press. These false reports have wrongfully poisoned the well of public opinion against Amanda. A Perugian judge, Claudia Matteini, was caught up in this false speculation and has repeated and added to the false speculation in her opinions.”''<ref name="Heavey"></ref>}} |
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:::Per ], you can make a case for your changes right here. You can talk about each of your changes separately if you wish. ] (]) 00:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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''In June 2010 Judge Heavey was brought before the State of Washington Commission on Judicial Conduct for his actions in the case. The charges centered around the prohibition on judges using “the prestige of judicial office to advance the private interests of others.”''<ref name="Heavey"></ref> |
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::: ]: "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" |
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::: <nowiki>]</nowiki> what is the complaint {{ping|Lard Almighty}}{{ping|Binksternet}} ? ] (]) 01:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::The nearby link to '']'' is the better target for the reader. It's more relevant to this bio. ] (]) 01:28, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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{{reflist}} |
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] (]) 21:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Suspect arrests == |
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:I got as far as the subsection titled "Failure to Arrest Rudy Guede Prior to the Murder". We do not require a "trial by Misplaced Pages" of the supposed faults of the Italian police or the apparent evil of Guede. Apart from the fact that this proposed content has an entrenched bias, and could not hope to satisfy NPOV demands, it is far too long and at the least requires considerable trimming. I count about 1,500 words of main text — representative of about one third of the current article length. Really, this argument has been debated and finished all before, and the sources used have been rejected by consensus. Blog sites such as Injustice In Perugia are not welcome. ''']]]''' 22:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Can somebody add a paragraph about the arrests of the suspects? It would be a great addition just after the "Discovery of the body" section. ] (]) 17:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC) |
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Oops. Please disregard my previous post. The info is already in the article. Sorry. ] (]) 17:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC) |
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== "Patrick Lumumba" redirects here == |
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*This proposal appears totally disproportionate to the level of criticism available from reliable sources. Comparable articles don't seem to have "criticisms" sections in any case. |
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*Much of the criticism above is not attributed, and therefore not suitable for WP. |
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*In order to maintain NPOV, WP coverage should give much more weight to statements not condemning the process, compared to what you propose. (Based on my understanding of what would constitute NPOV for this article). |
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*Material by Steve Moore and Doug Preston may not be useable on policy grounds (I think this has been raised in previous discussions). |
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*Given the history, the proposal seems wildly over-ambitious. Serious question for PhanuelB: did you imagine there was any chance of other editors supporting it, or was your intention just to provoke objections? --] (]) 22:41, 8 August 2010 (UTC) |
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==Massei report translation== |
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What about we get rid of the redirect link here? He is a minor character in the whole story. And having a reference to him at the top - even as a redirect notice - provides some level of bias to the article. On the other hand the other Lumumba, the congolese politician, is a prominent character and there's no doubt which of the two bearing this surname is notable in Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 11:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC) |
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This is an amateur translation and therefore probably not an RS: . The original Italian is here: |
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:A bit late to the party, but the politician is actually called ], and generic ] redirects to the politician. ] (]) 11:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC) |
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--] (]) 01:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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I have posted online 1000s of documents related to the murder case including police investigation reports, prosecutor files, defense team reports, courtroom testimony, court motivation reports, etc. The website is http:/www.themurderofmeredithkercher.net. Is it okay to put links to some of the original case files?
There are also a few minor mistakes in the otherwise good article (as one example: Meredith didn't have seven knife wounds; she suffered two major knife wounds and 10 minor ones and at least 39 distinct bruises.) I can provide links to the original autopsy report and a few of the follow-up consultant reports. Any report, presentation, photo or video the website has been censored out of respect for the Kercher family.
I'm not sure if linking to 'original' case documents is acceptable in this particular case.
Can somebody add a paragraph about the arrests of the suspects? It would be a great addition just after the "Discovery of the body" section. 199.102.241.68 (talk) 17:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Oops. Please disregard my previous post. The info is already in the article. Sorry. 199.102.241.68 (talk) 17:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
What about we get rid of the redirect link here? He is a minor character in the whole story. And having a reference to him at the top - even as a redirect notice - provides some level of bias to the article. On the other hand the other Lumumba, the congolese politician, is a prominent character and there's no doubt which of the two bearing this surname is notable in Misplaced Pages. --2001:B07:AE5:D54B:A184:822D:FEF3:4AA8 (talk) 11:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
![[REDACTED]](https://u3vuiephb.global.ssl.fastly.net/File:Misplaced Pages-logo-v2.svg){kind=link}
