Misplaced Pages

I think it's utterly useless, actually. It's a standard 'ban one from each side' decision. While the proposed principles do identify some of the problems (sourcing, due & undue weight), it's like they forgot about them beyond that point. There's nothing in that decision which actually suggests that they read any of the evidence or workshop, or did anything to actually educate themselves about what's going on. And there's absolutely nothing in that decision that will do anything to defuse the situation. Guettarda (talk) 11:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You are likely right, though it will depend on the voting. What puzzles me is how they took so long over this - any fool could have scrawled that on the back of a fag packet in 5 mins from the opening of the case William M. Connolley (talk) 12:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

They have not gotten hold of the situation by the scruff of the neck and it appears that Lar agrees on this. This has not really solved anything. WEAK WEAK WEAK Polargeo (talk) 12:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps intentionally so. There seemed to be an intent to lower the volume of the controversy by doing the bare minimum. ScottyBerg (talk) 12:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

An acceptable strategy if CC enforcement was not in place already but not acceptable if there is a failled system overseeing CC enforcement. Arbcom has effectively endorsed a failled system. Polargeo (talk) 12:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I doubt it. If you haven't already, read Boris' Pocket Guide to Arbitration. That pretty much sums it up. I have seen dozens of cases that simply default to something like this - ignore the underlying issues, and hand out a few bans. Arbitration enforcement (AE) was an innovation a couple years back, which helped a little. So it's now thrown at every case as well. This result could have been written without looking at the case. In fact, it was, if you look at what the vandal was posting on the PD page yesterday. They captured the essence of the decision. Guettarda (talk) 12:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

So a cry going out to all editors. Lets get rid of enforcement as a community and replace it with somthing better, agreed by all and not depending on arbcom. Polargeo (talk) 12:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I would want to see all editors involved in this. Polargeo (talk) 12:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The CC enforcement failed, because it was hijacked by involved admins pretending to be uninvolved. There is no sign of arbcomm dealing with this, nor any sign of the community being able to William M. Connolley (talk) 12:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. I often feel that it was my lone voice when I discovered CC probation and realised that it was not fully community approved but being strongly pushed by a couple of editors that things were going badly wrong. Polargeo (talk) 12:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Replacement of the CC enforcement page with Arbitration Enforcement, which presumably gets a wider readership, was a good idea. One general comment: in retrospect, the process is amazingly opaque. This may seem like a newbie sentiment and it is, but to somebody looking at this process fresh it is amazingly contrary to Misplaced Pages practices, almost like a star chamber. First people have to make proposals, not having any idea if they'll be entertained by the committee. Then the committee deliberates like a jury for weeks or months. The process needs to be opened up. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

@PG: I think we're actually in disagreement, at least in part. I think you view the entirety of the CC probation as bad. I think it could have been helpful, after being setup, had it not been subsequently hijacked by Lar and LHVU William M. Connolley (talk) 13:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes but what you don't appreciate is that I had been dealing with enforcement on balkans articles and only saw CC probation as bad and a poor solution based on experience, I found no agreement at the time unfortunately. Polargeo (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The PD is exactly as many of the Cabal members expected -- it's well known that Risker and Rlevse despise you, and the long delay was because they had to win over Brad to get sufficiently humiliating sanctions. As I have pointed out elsewhere, the arbs pay little or no attention to the Evidence/Workshop pages and base their decisions on broad impressions of who the good guys and bad guys are. (It has to be said that your recent actions gave R/R ammunition.) I think Risker's tactic here has been to set the Overton window at her desired boundary; the final decision may not be as extreme. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, you mean initially propose something totally absurd, and hope the rest are too dumb to notice that the final result is still absurd? Anyway, NYB gets his first two tests here William M. Connolley (talk) 13:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've tended to bend over backwards and to say that arbcom needs time to do this, that they need to read the evidence to make a thoughtful decision. Now I see how wrong I was. This wasn't a thoughtful decision. It doesn't even pretend to be a thoughtful decision. It certainly doesn't read as if it had been carefully hammered out. I was definitely naive in my expectations.ScottyBerg (talk) 14:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, glasshopper, you have much to learn. Meanwhile NYB wimped out of his test so now everyone gets their chance William M. Connolley (talk) 14:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It was a reasonable position to take. You're just not an old cynic like some of us. In general terms, the decision is entirely in keeping with Boris' Guide to Arbitration. In specific terms, the vandal got it pretty much right (taking into account the fact that the vandal's version was parody). Guettarda (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

There was a lot of truth to that parody, apart from it being very funny. With some modifications it might be usable as a comedy essay. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change/Proposed_decision&oldid=380300292 if anyone is wondering William M. Connolley (talk) 17:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The only thing I don't like about it is the snide reference to articles on the NY Subway system. Some of us are into that. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

If it doesn't offend you in some way, then it's not good satire. Guettarda (talk) 19:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Rlevse has gorn . That's interesting. There is no hint of why, though. Can't say I'm sorry but it would be interesting to know why. R has done some really wacky things with the PD William M. Connolley (talk) 15:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Naughty boy, you ignored Boris' warning to keep a low profile and not to challenge the faulty system too much, yet again. But like last time, your opponents exploited your actions a bit too vigorously, causing their efforts to backfire on them. Count Iblis (talk) 17:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Arbcom is coming down heavily in favor of Lar and his faction, going so far as to rewrite the definition of "uninvolved" so as to specifically exclude Lar. WP:ADMIN sez "Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors) and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute." Notice how Arbcom has refudiated the "current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors)" bit and focused solely on content? It's hard to escape the conclusion that Arbcom knew what they wanted to decide long ago, and are assembling the evidence and rewriting policy to fit their preferred outcome. So at the end of the day it wouldn't have mattered if WMC had behaved himself. They were going to nail him no matter what. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm surprised to hear you say that. I don't see that supported by the current round of votes, though who knows what the future will bring William M. Connolley (talk) 18:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm minded to put forward a couple of extra FoF's:

• GJP has been disruptive (I think the totally inapproriate GA review at a time when people were trying to step back was the most obvious; now reversed, happily )
• Minor4th has been disruptive
• ZP5 has been disruptive (in the sense that his disruption to valuable content ratio is infinite)
• JohnWBarber has been disruptive

Other obvious ones are ATren and Cla.

Thoughts? William M. Connolley (talk) 18:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm chatting with ATren at the moment, who seems (in spite of our disagreements) to be a decent well-meaning fellow.

I would be opposed to any sort of trouble for Cla68; he is a good content contributor and plays by the rules, and I find his behavior to be generally very respectable. Awickert (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Mixed feelings. Cla68 is good at following the letter of the law but disregards its spirit when it suits him. I find his view that we should prefer newspapers above the peer-reviewed literature to be deeply disturbing, but he may come by it honestly given that he appears to have no understanding at all of the scientific aspects of the articles. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that this is Cla68's background: he does a very good job of writing various history articles. In all of my interactions with him, he has been very reasonable, so I am sure that we will be able to work out the sourcing issue with him. I feel that, of all of the above, he is by far the most likely to do a substantial amount of useful writing. Awickert (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Cla is fine on milhist, I presume; and if he stayed there, all would be well. If you want to see bad faith from him, then Talk:Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_Change#InterAcademy_Council_report will do. Or his repeated attempts to insert HSI as a reference William M. Connolley (talk) 20:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Anybody remember his antics on the Warm period article? That was strange. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Who could forget As far back as geological proxy measurements go, each warm period has been followed by a cool period. Ed Poor loved it. Though admittedly, I had forgotten. Mind you, Don't you think it would be more helpful to then change the article text to fit what the ref's say? was quite a classic too William M. Connolley (talk) 20:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Might also be worth noting the addition of blog-sourced content to a BLP by Minor4th, which failed to evince the usual moral panic by subsequent editors. Granted, it's a step up from Cla68 and Tillman trying to source content from blog comments, but it's still (a) a BLP, and (b) potentially embarrassing. Guettarda (talk) 19:19, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Cla68 insight? Actually, the whole WR thread is interesting and indicative that there is some synergistic sharing between Lar, Cla68, and Moulton. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

• A specially-tailored version ofdiscretionary sanctions is authorized for the entire topic area of climate change. Enforcement requests are to be submitted to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, which is to replace Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement.
• Experienced administrators, and especially checkusers, are requested to closely monitor new accounts that edit inappropriately in the topic area.
• Within seven days of this remedy passing, all parties must either delete evidence sub-pages or request deletionof them.
• The following editors are banned from the topic area of climate change, and may not appeal this ban until at least six months after the closure of this case (and no more often than every three months thereafter);

• William M. Connolley
• Polargeo
• Thegoodlocust
• Marknutley
• ChrisO
• Minor4th
• ATren
• Hipocrite
• Cla68
• GregJackP
• A Quest For Knowledge
• Verbal
• ZuluPapa5
• JohnWBarber
• FellGleaming

• The following users have accepted binding voluntary topic bans;
  • Scjessey
  • KimDabelsteinPetersen
• The following administrators are explicitly restricted from applying discretionary sanctions as authorized in this case, as is any other administrator fitting the description of an involved administrator;
  • Stephan Schulz
  • Lar

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,
Dougweller (talk) 14:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

It is regrettable that you have to work for such poor masters William M. Connolley (talk) 20:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Of the decision:

• the "scorched earth" idea is unthinking and stupid.
• arbcomm demonstrate again an inability to distinguish the valuable from the valueless; indeed, they appear to be too lazy to even try.
• in pursuit of their atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant they have failed to notice that peace has already broken out. For two reasons: the worst of the "skeptics" (MN, M4th, Cla, ATren, TGL) are all gone; and the external forcing (Climatic Research Unit email controversy‎) has been resolved in favour of Climate Science. So all the disruption was for nothing.

About the only good thing about the PD is that it is so obviously bad, it is likely to rebound more to the discredit of arbcomm than anyone else.

Of the process:

• more of it should be open. There were very clearly extensive periods when off-wiki emails between the arbs were the main means of discussion. Some of that must be tolerable, but not to the extent that it is done. The arbs have become as addicted to secrecy as the Civil Service, and it is not good: both because of the dark deeds done in darkness (one example: the unexplained but welcome booting out of Rlevse) and because lack of on-wiki information fostered unease amongst the participants.
• the arbs need to be more involved, and to manage the process. Some are lazy, but none are good. This isn't acceptable. It has become near-expected practice in arbcomm cases for nothing but a few gnomic utterances from arbs during the case. The sheer volume of evidence and discussion produced by petty back-and-forth needs to be rigourously policed. Arbcomm as a whole is fairly lazy, in that they don't really evaluate the actual abckground to a case - that would be too much trouble, and they never bother. Instead, they rely on behaviour *during* a case, and part of their technique is a deliberate fostering of the possibility for disorder, in order to give them a lazy way of deciding. In this case, arbcomm gave a clear signal right at the start that evidence limits could be ignored. It was downhill from there.

Of the arbs:

• none of them emerge with any credit.

William M. Connolley (talk) 08:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Did you notice the Hipocrite slapped a retired template up? Even though he said it wasn't due to the case, I think it was for the most part. I find it sad that a lot of long term editors just gave up after this case. Do you think Verbal will be back? I didn't think we lose so many long term editors like this. I am actually surprised in one way but in the other way I guess it's to be expected.  :( --CrohnieGal 18:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

A discussion is now underway somewhere as to whether it's kosher to have a section such as the one below, discussing scholarly articles proposed by the Banned. It's so utterly bizarre, but to someone familiar with Misplaced Pages it would seem routine. Of course, to one of the most active (and unsanctioned) CC editors, my very act of posting on this page would be considered... I forget the words he used. Fraternizing with the unclean? ScottyBerg (talk) 19:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Could not see the discussion anywhere. FWIW I think any conversation which people bring here ought to be ok, as long as it stays here and does not get directly cited as part of an argument anywhere else. Ought, because I haven't got time to read the exact ruling but practically speaking it is much better for everyone if any such conversations stay here and visible rather than disappear on to email. Isn't there something about a prophet living in a tree whom people travelled to consult which even fits with one of the pictures....--BozMo talk 20:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#What_does_topic_banned_mean.3F ScottyBerg (talk) 20:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Some valid concerns are being raised in that discussion, but valid only in the Misplaced Pages sense. Outside of Misplaced Pages, I'd think that trying to prevent scientists from listing sources would be viewed with amazement. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with most everything you said in your analysis apart from the juicy gossip that I cannot directly verify. One comment, though: it's been perennially easy to be hard on arbcom; in fact, it won't take too much digging in my history to see my take on them. It seems to me now that they're basically doing exactly what the committee was designed to do when it was first set-up. Misplaced Pages and arbcom are both intentionally dysfunctional because the only way the content could have been created and given its high Google-ranks in the first place was to open it to the peanut-gallery that is the internet. What we have entrenched now is a culture that values inane process over efficiency, brute force over nuance, and immature niceties over intellectual heft. Sounds like any other internet microcosm to me. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's unquestionable that the process was far more opaque than it should have been, and took too long. I think that everyone involved except the arbs would agree with that. Email deliberations have their place, but there was far too little communication with the parties. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's been that way in every arbitration case since 2005 as far as I can tell. Additionally, with every arbcom election, there are candidates who get elected who promise to change the system, and they all end up either resigning or changing their minds. The opacity was intentional and has always been a part of Misplaced Pages as far as I can tell. Obviously, there are scenarios where private communications are needed, but for whatever reason arbcom tends to function primarily on this level to their own detriment.

I think the model of the US Supreme Court is much better. Let disputants make statements and enter evidence. Then let arbcom ask questions. Then shut everything down. Arbcom comes back with a singular ruling and opposing minority opinions with signatures.

ScienceApologist (talk) 21:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

That, actually, would be my favored model because it would tend to promote coherent decisions and better expressed dissent. Odds of being able to reform ArbCom to work this way: internal (ArbCom) support: 25%, external (community) support: 0.01%. If lucky. — Coren  00:27, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

That seems like it might work, actually. Anybody know what the procedure is to have it implemented? Maybe an RFC to gauge support,. and the closing consensus is the community's recommendation to the Committee? The Wordsmith 03:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom does not answer to the community, only to Jimbo. So, one has to ask Jimbo if he would be willing to consider community proposals to reform the ArbCom system. Count Iblis (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that having arbcomm ask questions would be the correct way to work. I disagree that people would disagree. Furthermore, I don't think arbcomm's way of working is anywhere set in stone - it is just How They Do Stuff. The could do it differently for the next case, if they chose to. Coren blaming-the-community-in-advance for arbcomm's failure to reform itself is a Poor Show William M. Connolley (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

This edit by H is good: both for the identification of the same flaw in the system as discussed above; and for the note about dirty backroom dealing William M. Connolley (talk) 21:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Late thought: arbcomm cases, when raised, should be complete. So no evidence should be considered that concerns behaviour after the case is accepted William M. Connolley (talk) 19:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

WMC...well, what can I say...if the evidence is cherry picked, then there is plenty out there to show our intolerance of non-science. Like you, I have a history of being less than cordial to those here to promote unscientific information...however, I do not believe I have ever, nor have you ever, done this because we see Misplaced Pages as a place to promote a POV, but rather as a place to try and build a reliable fact based source for information. I'm not an expert on CC, but am very well read on it and am active in keeping myself up to date on the latest....like this. I strongly disagree with the comment that LessHeard vanU made here but primarily his comment that..." disregarding the evidence compiled that this is your preferred modus operandi in trying to promote your vision of what is appropriate (and what is not) to be included in the subject area - is the reason why I believe this case to be inadequate in dealing with a concerted campaign to deny a wide ranging examination of the subject of Climate Change, including and especially the skeptic or denialist viewpoint." I see little room that should be made regarding the skeptical viewpoint...it isn't backed up by the preponderance of evidence, nor is it anything more than cherry picking the inconsistancies that can be found in dealing with a complex variable science such as climate change...there is one absolute truth in AGW and that is that it is happening...the path it is taking as it gets worse is naturally going to have some inconsistancies. You know this and so do I, but those that want to convince others that AGW is being oversold, is inaccurate or is a "lie" are using these inconsistancies to undermine the underlying truth. I see no reason to allow article space to be an "experiment" in examining the skeptical viewpoint except in articles devoted to that purpose. I don't know if I can offer a road back for you at this point...if others truly feel that the skeptical viewpoint should get better examination within the article space, then it would seem that CC subject matter on this website is doomed to becoming infested with this unreasonable doubt. No amount of civility or efforts to show assume good faith "improvements" (laughable for me to assume good faith of those trying to undermine the known evidence) on your part will override a desire by others to see more of the skeptical examination, and their failure to understand your ridigity in trying to keep these nonscientific viewpoints minimized is exasperating to me.--MONGO 20:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Know what you mean guv. But to be fair, other than generally contributing to poisoning the case I don't think LHVU's nonsense afflicted the arbs much. Certainly it didn't make it into the FoF or remedies (did it?) and I don't see any implication at all in the decision that any of the content was slanted (perhaps the BLP bit?) William M. Connolley (talk) 22:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I simply disagree with LHVU's take on the matter, and wondered if aside from the general sanctions, if many feel that the skeptical view isn't getting enough "weight" in article space...that was my take on his position, though like you said, this doesn't seem to be part of the findings or visible basis for the sanctions but that could possibly be because arbcom doesn't (openly) settle content disputes.--MONGO 17:06, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Based on the discussion that has arisen subsequent to the decision, concerning whether the topic ban covers user page posts, I sense a kind of huffy attitude and desire to separate WMC from these articles, even in areas not explicitly covered by the decision or even discussed during the case. There seems to be a desire to restore a semblance of harmony whatever the cost. Somebody said on this page a day or so ago that this is consistent with a website that is based on broad Internet participation. I'm not precisely quoting but that's the gist. The Internet does have a larger than normal proportion of people who advocate nontraditional POVs, and their needs must be served. That's the message I hear in this decision. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I sense a certain degree of fear. Some people have so little confidence in[REDACTED] that even distant comment by me makes them tremble (Fred Bauder springs to mind). If they are too scared of seeing what is on this page, they can unwatch William M. Connolley (talk) 18:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The user page comment thread was pretty unanimous that such posts are definitely not kosher, so I suspect that if they don't like what they see on this page they'll do more than unwatch. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

You clearly have a differenet definition on unanimous to me. In particular, SA provided evidence to the contrary. Like I say, anyone who doesn't want to read what is written here can unwatch William M. Connolley (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

My impression is that the people who are known for supporting a hard line attitude to these sorts of issues, have been the most vocal in that discussion there. They overplayed their hand last time (when the issue was inserting comments in postings made here), so I don't think they would want to start another conflict on a non-issue, leading to a big brawl at AE, weakening the whole enforcement regime. Count Iblis (talk) 18:35, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, it appeared to me that the sentiment was against using the talk pages. Not unanimous, certainly. I was against it, for instance, for what it was worth, which wasn't much. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:39, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll give another comment on that thread. I think they are missing something when they look at the issue raised by Lar in a very narrow way. In the way they are framing it, their point makes sense. In general, you don't want talk pages to be used by topic banned editors to continue being engaged in the topic they were topic banned from. And this issue has been a problem in other ArbCom cases. But then, this particular case is different for a few reasons, which have nothing to do with William trying to get around the topic ban. Count Iblis (talk) 19:04, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. For info only, out of politeness as is normal when editors are discussed on noticeboards. In my own view, you'd be best advised to ignore it and not join in the discussion. At least until there are significant further developments, but then what do I know. . . dave souza, talk 21:48, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

WMC, please don't play this game. It will not lead to a result you could qualify as positive, for anyone involved. You disagree with the ruling; that has been made abundantly clear here and everywhere else you have chosen to expound on your disapproval. Nevertheless, you need to abide by it, and such literal toeing of the line reflects poorly on yourself and will lead to escalation. — Coren  23:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why you're paying any attention to JAJ. If people don't want to read this page, they don't have to. And, as SA points out, the precedent is in the other direction: this is entirely permissible. Are you really so frightened? William M. Connolley (talk) 09:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Because you are a valuable contributor, even if you did get too personally involved in a conflict. Right now, you're doing you damned best to burn bridges and that is something you are most likely to regret in the end. — Coren  11:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

It is nice to see that acknowledged, even if far too late.

As for the bridges, I disagree. In fact I don't even know what you mean by it William M. Connolley (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

More constructively, why not give a hand in and around ZFC? The whole mess of set theory articles on Misplaced Pages is poorly sourced and opaque to all but someone with a strong maths background. You certainly have both experience and talent at writing that would be put to good use over there — and allow you to disengage from the climate mess. — Coren  23:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe. But if you want that as a favour, you need to be rather less heavy about other matters William M. Connolley (talk) 09:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I wish you could take a step back and realize that if favor this is, it would be entirely to your benefit. You're no longer a scientist when you write about CC on Misplaced Pages, Dr. Connolley, you are a participant. That's as unhealthy for you as it is disruptive to Misplaced Pages; and we are hoping a brief vacation entirely away from the topic will allow you to disengage enough to help return with objectivity. Your idea of User:WMC that does not share your watchlist was excellent — avail yourself of it. — Coren  11:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

You're no longer a scientist when you write about CC on Misplaced Pages, Dr. Connolley, you are a participant - you're wrong. Firstly, I'm no longer a scientist at all - I'm a software engineer. But no, I'm not a "participant" now any more than I was 2, 3 or 7 years ago. Unless you have some novel definition I don't know about William M. Connolley (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Taking a purely pragmatic point of view, one has to consider maintaining CC articles on a daily basis that are not watched by many people. The main global warming page is watched by 1500 people, but there are a lot of other pages that have a handful of watchers, many of whom don't edit Misplaced Pages frequently. Mostly, these are pages on technical aspects of climate science. In contrast, the polemic pages tend to have a large number of watchers.

William seems to have all these CC pages on his watchlist and if we don't want him to communicate obvious problems (like subtle POV pushing in the two cases reported by William above), then other editors have to watchlist these pages and check out every edit on a daily basis. This would require all these pages to be listed somewhere so that people like me can monitor them.

Now, when I just checked out the latest problem reported by William, I also tried to find if there already is some coordinated effort to maintain the articles. What I found was that Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Environment/Climate change task force exists for this purpose, but that this is inactive (also quite a few of the listed members seem to have a problematic background, it seems). The lists of articles that I saw there are not up to date, e.g. I didn't find the article William pointed to listed there. Count Iblis (talk) 16:14, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The Cl Ch task force never had any credibility, for any number of reasons, some of which you allude to. To revive it you'd need a purpose for it. For quite a long time t:GW was the informal Cl Ch noticeboard William M. Connolley (talk) 20:17, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

After all the discussion, which you are well aware of, you continue to try and find ways to sneak around the edges of your topic ban. This will not be tolerated from you or any of the other banned editors. Banned means leave it alone, entirely. No exceptions. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I see the result for User:Cla68 was to turn a blind eye. Interesting. By the way, whose sockpuppet is User:EngineerFromVega? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Why now and not say 10 days ago for this? That's when the first comment was made in the section so again, why now? --CrohnieGal 17:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Not the admin, but the block came 15 minutes after the complaint at WP:AE. Right or wrong, the timeline is fairly clear.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• You're telling me that this block came 15 min. after the complaint? Since when is 15 minutes enough time to discuss whether an editor should be blocked, never mind just blocking said editor? Editors are located around the world in different time zones as you know so I don't understand the rush here. Was this considered an emergency to protect the project? I sure hope not. I was too late to make a comment at AE. The decision was already made to block, this is wrong. Maybe WMC deservers a block, that's not what I'm complaining about. What my problems is, is 15 minutes with a complaint then boom a 2 week block. Doesn't anyone else have a problem with this? --CrohnieGal 17:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Actually the arbcomm case encouraged decisiveness, and one of the arbs said something to that effect in response to Tony's recent request. The alternative - agonise over it for two weeks and then still block - is probably not an improvement. Guettarda (talk) 17:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

No indication of what I have been blocked for. Nor indeed is "Banned means leave it alone, entirely. No exceptions" justified by the arbcomm result or policy William M. Connolley (talk) 20:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Decline reason:

This is an arbitration enforcement block. It can only be appealed as described at WP:AEBLOCK.  Sandstein  20:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Oh, and can someone please point Beeblebrox at User:William_M._Connolley/For_me/The_naming_of_cats William M. Connolley (talk) 20:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

You miss the point. This block was not imposed pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy. The arbcomm remedy does not include edits to my user talk page. Also, following recent intereactions with you, you cannot possibly be regarded as an impartial admin

Decline reason:

While I understand that's your opinion, this block should be reviewed using the AE process, so don't use {{unblock}}, but instead use {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. PhilKnight (talk) 21:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Well, thanks for the info. Wiki seems to have gone mad, or at least a portion of it has. At least a few remain sane William M. Connolley (talk) 21:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If you are finished writing out your appeal, I can move it to the AE page for you. However, I would suggest writing something a bit more substantive, perhaps a paragraph stating that you don't think it was violation of the ban, and that if the Request for Clarification rules that that sort of thing is not allowed, you will abide by it? I think that would give you a greater chance of a successful appeal. The Wordsmith 21:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but I believe I've covered the sustance. Could you also get Beeblebrox to strike the "Mr" insult, unless he was doing it deliberately? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I will move it over now. As far as Beeblebrox, I doubt he intended it as an insult. Modern conventions indicate that males should generally be called Mr, and so I doubt he even considered it. I will ask him, though, if he will change it. The Wordsmith 21:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks (it shouldn't be necessary for you to do so. B ought to have read what I've written above). Also, there is a typo in my appeal: is the onehat -> 'is the one that'. Could you correct that? Also, the template (presumably in an effort to rub salt into wounds) says that the appeal will be dismissed unless I notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then jump through some more hoops. Could you possibly jump throuygh the hoops for me? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I have jumped through the appropriate hoops on your behalf, and I made a request on Beeblebrox's talkpage that he address you in your preferred manner. I'm going to review the evidence presented again, and then I will form an opinion regarding the appeal. At this point, i'm not sure what course of action I will suggest. If you wish to make any further statements for your appeals, make them here and I will transfer them over. The Wordsmith 22:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks William M. Connolley (talk)

Agreed, arbcom do everything they can get away with away from scrutiny. It is very difficult to challenge arbcom on this because complete cooperation of all involved editors in any particular case is needed to force this to change. They tried to keep my case away from public eyes and wrapped it up with all arbs voting under some checkuser cloud even though I never requested or needed any secrecy. In fact secrecy worked against me as certain members of arbcom almost certainly realised when pushing their hasty agenda driven solutions. Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Accepted practice is to discuss the topic on WR, then make the edits here. :-P Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I cannot comment about that on-wiki because that would involve me discussing the conduct of administrators in CC probation. Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You mentioned "the CC probation"! That's an obvious attempt to prolong the dispute and deserves a lengthy block. We have to make you scum understand that business means business. (Sadly, I'm not sure whether I'm joking or not...) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Your joking Boris, don't know about the rest of them though. 2 weeks? I don't understand why looking at this talk page I don't see it. Did WMC, sorry WMC, did you talk about CC some place else? I'm confused because I don't see anything here recent to cause the block. Can someone clarify for me please? Thanks in advance, --CrohnieGal 13:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, see #Misc breakage, above. It struck me as a sensible solution, but people found it problematic and told him to stop. He posted a third one, which led to AE, which led to a block. Unreasonable? Sure. Putting process above improving the encyclopaedia? Sure. But given that he was told to stop, from a purely process perspective, it's it difficult point to argue. But honestly, I'm more inclined to see this as bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, rather than stupidity or maliciousness.

At the heart of this is a desire to "do something". It's what we say to politicians all the time. "Do something". Got a crime problem? Enforce tougher sentences! It doesn't matter if the solutions (a) fail to address the actual problem, and (b) result in draconian punishments for people guilty of relatively minor infractions (cf. war on drugs) - people want action, they want to see something being done. In Misplaced Pages, the people wanting action and the people capable of acting happen to overlap significantly. So it all gets more complicated.

Tougher laws don't actually solve crime problems, especially when they don't actually do anything to deal with the underlying problems. A tougher sanctions regime isn't going to solve the problem here - they're driven by a combination of real-world politics and bloggers taking specific aim at articles and editors here. People still seem to be operating under the mistaken idea that this is about personalities, that you can solve the problem by clamping down on the 'problem children'. That's not to say that there aren't problems between editors, conflicts that have made matters worse. But they're minor. Without the "external forcings", we wouldn't have a big problem here.

In one sense the problem is the solution. The arbcomm case created a flawed framework. But the arbcomm actually has no power of its own. The power actually lies with the community. A constant stream of 'test cases' makes matters worse. What has happened since the case closed is very unfortunate. Guettarda (talk) 16:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Note that in this case, the block doesn't prevent William from posting another CC article link, it only prevents William from editing other non CC articles. :) . Count Iblis (talk) 16:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

True, but the next block could keep him from editing his talk page as well. I agree that what's happening is going to shift a lot of activity off-wiki, and things can get hairy. I tried to raise that issue in one of the discussions a few days ago, but without success. I think that we're definitely seeing process triumphing over content here. The choice was made, and content is going to suffer. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep, it will force things off-wiki. May as well start now:

Sign here to join the secret mailing list.

1. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
2. --CrohnieGal 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
3. --17:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
4. William M. Connolley (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
5. Count Iblis (talk) 17:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
6. --~~
7. Jimbo Wales (talk) Imaginary time, Modified Julian Date (UTC)

This is not a good idea. Remember the Eastern European Mailing List case, in which multiple people were banned because it was discovered they were using a mailing list. Cardamon (talk) 19:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but this is a secret mailing list. So no one knows it exists. It's safe to assume that these people are not part of that list. The fact that one does not receive messages from the list is proof that the list exists is the fact that you are not receiving messages from it. And every time you see vandalism reverted, you will have to ask yourself whether it was produced by some sort of a secret list. And, BTW, the issue with the EEML was not the existence of the list, but rather, the way it was used. Guettarda (talk) 19:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I assume that this is being done in jest (it is, isn't it?), but it definitely can be misconstrued. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but information on the list is only available via the list. As soon as you subscribe, you will get an email with full instructions. Please disable your spam filter, as we use steganography to make the more important announcements look like penis enlargement ads. In fact, you may already be subscribed... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I like your thinking. In fact I like it so much I stole it :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 22:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Only reasonable solution I see here is to elect Boris to the arbcomm. Guettarda (talk) 13:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

He's got my vote! --CrohnieGal 13:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

A run for arbcom certainly is an intriguing proposition. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

If you'll accept, I know lots of us would vote for you. --CrohnieGal 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I went out this morning and it was cold. Then it got warmer. It appears to be getting colder right now. A couple of months ago it was warmer. I am not going to Antarctica this year so from my perspective it will be a warm winter. Oh someone is vandalising an article but I cannot tell you where. Never mind, nice sock spread the love :). Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Huh! --CrohnieGal 13:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I have lost my mind. Pay no attention :) Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Polargeo 2, as a topic-banned party in the CC case you have just made a personal attack against yourself, who is a topic-banned editor in the CC case. Why do you insist on continuing these battles across multiple forums fora forii places, despite the clear intent of arbcom? See WP:NSA. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I feel that the link under "even in the face of self-abuse" needs changing William M. Connolley (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

To what, might I ask? you foul-minded pervert... Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I went to public school, I'll have you know, and that kind of joke is obligatory William M. Connolley (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I was rather surprised that the link didn't go there... Guettarda (talk) 19:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

SBHB, I'm deeply worried. From an ArbCom candidate I would expect to see more than just a singe WP:STUPIDABBREV. If I were uninvolved, I'd strongly consider blocking you for insufficient zeal in enforcing Misplaced Pages best practices! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

! William M. Connolley (talk) 18:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry, I think we all have! :) --CrohnieGal 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Mailing lists are so last century. What about a private wiki? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I confess to being startled at the suggestion that you should either ignore blatant bad edits, or else email someone else to fix them. I really can't see what the latter achieves at all. Surely this is "participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles", just harder to prove? Although perhaps I shouldn't give people ideas. Anyway, for what it's worth, I fail to see what a 2 week ban achieves that couldn't be achieved by saying "don't do that", especially when the case was not clear-cut. "Unncessarily draconian" springs to mind. pour encourager les autres? Or décourager, in this case. --Merlinme (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Malice is the word you're looking for William M. Connolley (talk) 17:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

you should . . . ignore blatant bad edits: that's the definition of "topic ban," and the culmination of months of deliberations. Removal of the most qualified editor from the CC articles and an editorial in the Wall Street Journal praising arbcom for having done so. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought Boris's post on NYB's talk page was particularly good. That showed up that Stephan as a bit of a whinger William M. Connolley (talk) 18:14, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Why private? Why not just post it at WR. As much as they hate you over there, they hate the arbcomm more. It would appear that one's actions on WR, no matter how egregious, incur no penalty over here. Guettarda (talk) 19:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Is this a subtle reference to Slaughterhouse 5? What connection has it got to the global warming arena? If none, even in the fevered imagination of any watching activists, why not fix it yourself? Of course, now you've drawn attention to it, if anyone reading this page reverts it, they'll be accused of meatpuppetry by those more interested in procedure than in article content quality. . dave souza, talk 14:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

He can't fix it while blocked.--Cube lurker (talk) 15:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Good point, I was forgetting the escalation of the topic ban. Fortunately a gifted photographer has remedied the problem. . dave souza, talk 15:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm just wondering how large the extension of the block is going to be over this instance. Since WMC is blocked - this (by the current "interpretation") would mean that he should be blocked further from Misplaced Pages, since his input is not wanted, and he just "gamed" that. To the blocking admins - please do so, because there is no substantial difference. . --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

• To answer your question, Kim, making references on one's own talk page (while blocked) to edits needed on articles outside a topic ban, is not (usually) disruptive (it is silly, though, because the real solution is to recognise why you were blocked, to make undertakings to change the conduct that led to the block, and to request an unblock by asking for a new statement to be transferred to the current WP:AE appeal). Making links to edits that need fixing in articles covered by a topic ban, however, is equivalent to using user talk space for discussing or proposing changes to articles. That sort of activity should properly take place on article talk pages, but that would breach the topic ban. When someone is topic banned from an area, they can't retreat to their user space and use that as a parallel world to carry on editing by proxy in the same area. Well, they can, but the outcome is what we've seen here. Previous examples (by other editors) of this 'smoke signals from userspace' approach were, in hindsight, not a good idea.
• To expand on that, the Misplaced Pages userspace has specific functions, though, traditionally, wide latitude is given to how people use their userspace, but that doesn't mean that userspace is a place where 'anything goes'. User talk space, in particular, is where users often interact in a less formal manner (as seen by some of the postings on this and other user talk pages). But ultimately, if a particular discussion or activity is better carried out in a different namespace or venue, then the discussion should move there. Really, user talk space should be a place to contact people, to have side-discussions, to have off-topic conversations, or be a waystation to other places, where the real work on the encyclopedia is done. It shouldn't be a place for long discussions on content to be hosted, or for perennial arguments to continue endlessly. It certainly shouldn't be a place for article changes to be proposed or discussed.

It boils down to this: what, fundamentally, is user talk space for? Carcharoth (talk) 02:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

No, none of this will do. Everything you have said amounts to advisory: nothing justifies a block for TP usage. The only explanation for that is fear and paranoia on the part of arbcomm, which I think is the correct explanation (which is to say: although you were too stupid to recognise me as an expert, you know full well that others aren't, and value my opinions. You know that contrary to the gaily-experssed opinions of the arbs in this case, I'm not just one-of-many. Therefore, unlike in previous cases, you need to crush all dissent). The fundamental point is that the edits I made to my talkpage were not disruptive: the disruption comes from the responses. And by that I don't mean the responses from people editing, but responses from the shit-stirrers like TS and EfV. Had the shit-stirring been ignored, as it should have been, there would have been no problem. Retrospectively bolting on a talk-page ban, and then jumping through hoops to justify it (as you have above), is fundamentally dishonest William M. Connolley (talk) 10:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I advised WMC privately to be careful with his talk page use, but he is absolutely right about the fundamentals of this. The problem is not what he posts to his talk page. The problem was the reactions and how seriously they were taken. This was a basis for a formal warning asking him to stop, but it was no basis for blocking him without a warning. Hans Adler 16:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Carcharoth i have two problems with this: "Sillyness" is not a blockable offence. And changing the rules retroactively (with rather foolish rationalization) is bad practice. Can you explain exactly why ArbCom wasn't crystal clear on this? Despite having been asked the question in advance? All you had to do was say: "The users own talk page is henceforth included in the topic-ban - it was an oversight by us not to specify this." --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

• More: William M. Connolley (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

That is blatant vandalism, but... {sigh}. Well, I've said what I think. As you say, you are responsible for your own behaviour. I will now fix said blatant vandalism, assuming someone else hasn't already done so. --Merlinme (talk) 15:44, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Don't worry, its not a Cl Ch article. But I only gave you an hour to spot it, which isn't really fair William M. Connolley (talk) 21:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. I'll take your word for it that the ozone layer doesn't come under climate change. I can see why that's true... and I can see why that's a bit, umm... possibly contentious by those looking for reasons to eliminate you. But you understand the limits much better than I do. Keep identifying vandalism and I will keep fixing. Hopefully no-one can object to removing vandalism. --Merlinme (talk) 22:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

• I came back here to respond to some of the points made, but I see WMC has hatted the discussion (presumably not interested in discussing further the points I made above). If anyone else who responded above would like to follow-up, they are welcome to do so on my talk page until a more suitable venue is found, as I think a discussion on what user talk space is really for would be useful.
• Any further points specifically about WMC's block (other than what I've said below), I will reserve for any appeal that is filed, though my stance remains the same: just because user talk space (or any venue) is not explicitly included in a topic ban, that doesn't mean actions in that name space or venue are allowed and/or sensible. The sensible course of action (when it was clear that there was disagreement over this) would have been for WMC to file a clarification stating specifically that he wished to use his user talk space to point out vandalism and other 'breakage' within the topic area and ask ArbCom to rule on that (possibly asking at WP:AE first before taking to ArbCom). If WMC would like to file such a request for clarification, he could request an unblock solely to do that (group clarifications are less helpful - see what Biophys said here - though the result of any such clarification would still be notified to the other editors it affected).

If WMC made an undertaking to abide by the result of such a clarification, he would likely remain unblocked. Carcharoth (talk) 04:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Carcharoth, that looks like a promising approach and I commend it to WMC. . . dave souza, talk 06:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm baffled. What point is there being unblocked only to file an appeal that C has already decided to reject? William M. Connolley (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

@C: sorry, you gave up replying, so I decided to tidy up. I've unhatted it now so you can reply William M. Connolley (talk) 09:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

@C: this specific point (use of talk pages) was raised directly during the case. Not a single arb bothered to take the time to say that use of talk pages was forbidden. You cannot possibly complain that people would suspect that they were permitted, given the precedent for doing exactly that. Even now, it is noticeable (I think) that no arb has forbidden it explicitly. I can only asume that this is because you don't want to be forced to block your friends William M. Connolley (talk) 14:53, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

C had previously based his argument for "leaving the CC topic well behind, unwatch all the CC pages" on the assumption that the rest of the community would take over the task of maintaining all the pages without any problems. Then from C's POV, the only problem with with not doing that is staying involved in the topic area longer than necessary, which is less than optimal.

However, the fact that acts of vandalism are not always reverted in a reasonable time (because it takes time for the community to begin monitoring the large number of CC articles) and that this has been used to bait editors at AE to play the same sort of game (the, as Jehochman put it, "ban my opponent" game) that sank the General Sanctions board is, of course, noted by C and other Arbitrators. So, they may well be open to reconsider things. Count Iblis (talk) 15:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Personally I read Carcharoth's post as something of an attempted olive branch. Basically, if you apply to ArbCom for permission to notify CC vandalism on your talk page, C would support it. I would be very surprised if Carcharoth had made the suggestion with the intention of rejecting it. What would be the point? It would just be a waste of everyone's time.

ArbCom as a whole might feel differently and reject it. And you might feel that the issue should have been dealt with clearly before; you might feel that being blocked for something which wasn't clear is injust (and you know I would agree with you). But if there's a chance of making progress, I would have thought it's worth trying. --Merlinme (talk) 20:22, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

You are optimistic than me. I see C's post as an attempt to appear reasonable whilst offering nothing. It is a cynical attempt to deflect future blame / his conscience (insert obvious comment here). But to the substance: there should be no need for this Kremlinology / reading the goat's entrails. If C is in favour of lifting the use-talk-pages ban, he simply needs to say so. There is no new evidence to offer; all the sane people have already pointed out that the case decision doesn't cover user talk; the arbs have studiously ignored that point; they aren't suddenly going to change their minds (ditto) now. As for your idea that C wouldn't suggest it because it would be a waste of veryone's time: that very clearly is too optimistic. This entire stupid ban has been a vast waste of time William M. Connolley (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm essentially an optimist who prefers to believe the best about people. You clearly don't see it like that. But let's put it this way: what exactly is lost by following Carcharoth's suggestion? The worst that can happen is that it comes to nothing. It might take up some of your Misplaced Pages time, but given the topic ban I'm assuming you have some time you would normally spend defending CC articles (and essentially this would be defending CC articles). The best that can happen is that it is agreed that you are allowed to alert people to vandalism in CC articles. --Merlinme (talk) 22:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• The point I was trying to make (and it feeds back into what I said earlier about taking a step back and considering what user talk pages are really for) is that this is not the right venue to seek clarification of an ArbCom case remedy (in this case the boundaries of a topic ban). All that has happened so far is that various arbs (but not all) have opined in various places (such as the arbitration committee noticeboard talk page and this user talk page and possibly some other places). None of those are formal clarifications, and none of them carry the weight of an en banc clarification from the committee as a whole. The correct venue for a formal clarification (one where you should get responses from most of the other arbitrators and not just a few of them, and a venue where you will get more detailed explanations than can be given here) is: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification (please note what I said earlier that it is possible to request to be unblocked solely for filing such a clarification request, or to ask for a clarification request to be filed on your behalf). Having said that, I will now stick to what I said earlier and not comment further here, and I'll wait for something to appear there if anyone thinks that a formal clarification is needed. Carcharoth (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

We seem to be going around in circles, whilst you are being pointlessly bureaucratic. All the arbs have seen this block. Not one has felt any need to say "hang on, this block might not be valid, we need a clarification here". OTOH none have had the guts to clearly state that it does apply. I don't see any chance of you being any less weaselly elsewhere. I'll file a clarification request when I'm able to, but I know full well that you are just wasting my time William M. Connolley (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

@ WMC, As an ancient bureaucrat may I advise that preparing your case and formally requesting unblocking for the sole purpose of seeking clarification is the way to get the issue properly examined. Merely complaining that others should have read your talk page leaves the way open to plausible deniability, setting out the detailed case at least shows reasonable behaviour on your own part which should be taken into account, and puts the issues on record. Apart from anything else, it has the prospect of incremental success, which inaction lacks. . . dave souza, talk 16:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I think we're going round in circles, too. I think C's offer is worthless, for the reaons I've given. Like I said: I'll file a clarification request when I'm able to, but I know full well that you are just wasting my time William M. Connolley (talk) 20:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

@DS: well, I was right and you were wrong: C's offer was indeed worthless William M. Connolley (talk) 18:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, he doesn't have to tell.. I still have the page watched from our last contretemps.. It's not quite tittle-tattle, it's from the proposed decision.And I actually understated it, it wasn't 7 of 8, it was 11 of 12. Four of the nine articles involved in the twelve edit wars are biographies of living people. These four articles accounted for six of the twelve edit wars. Almost 30 editors were involved in the twelve edit wars that resulted in these page protections; of these editors those involved in four or more of the edit wars are: WMC – 11, Marknutley – 9, ChrisO – 6, Cla68 – 5, ATren – 4, Verbal -4. SirFozzie (talk) 15:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Polargeo - 0 Polargeo 2 (talk) 15:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but its wrong, as I told a couple of arbs on the case. As you'll notice, that FoF didn't pass; quoting failed FoF's is careless. Check NYB's comment on it and subsequent discussion on his talk page. All that trash was the reason Rlvese had to be kicked off the case, remember? (oh, and I didn't like your shouting so I've downgraded it) William M. Connolley (talk) 15:36, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

(ec) SirFozzie, it is unwise to assume that those figures are accurate. During the case, the numbers were at something like 7 out of 8, then a "war" occurred in which WMC was not involved, and the numbers became 7 of 9 - and then miraculoulsy they became 11 of 12. So, even leaving aside whether "involved" was a reasonable for (say) a single edit, the simple counting in this case was inaccurate, at least it was at the point I checked it. I decided not to post about it to the PD talk page as it became clear the finding wasn't going to be included in the decision. However, I think you should be aware that there are question marks over those numbers, at least in the minds of some observers such as myself. EdChem (talk) 15:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Brad and other Arbs called them factual.. but yes. I understand where you're coming from. I still think that it was pretty factual that when an edit war broke out during the case that it was very much more likely than not that WMC (and a couple folks from the so called "other side") were at the heart of it. And to cut off another little meme before it can sink in with others, Rlevse was not kicked off writing the case, either by you, the committee or any single arb. SirFozzie (talk) 15:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Rlvese: don't believe you, and neither does anyone else. Actually, Brad and other Arbs called them factual. Twaddle. Subsequent to that, NYB said reviewing, which is why that FoF failed (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Proposed decision#Edit warring on Climate Change related articles). That FoF is wrong; when called on reporting tittle-tattle your response is merely to weasel. Which is hardly surprising; most of the other arbs have been very closed-minded too William M. Connolley (talk) 15:58, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

These figures should always have been just a part of the FoF. The other major part should have been an analysis of each individual editors positive contributions and the interests of each individual editor. By not doing that you get remedies that don't work (for some). E.g. Cla68 has a totally different profile than William as far as their postive contributions and interests are concerned. Remedy 3 is far more effective for Cla68 than for William.

Accepting the FoF regarding edit wars for argument's sake, a remedy for William that would have worked given his positive contributions and interests, would be something that constrains him on climate science articles, away from BLP and articles on the politics and various controversies surrounding CC. You can think of a list of approved articles that William would be allowed to edit. I have the feeling that such solutions didn't make it, because William would attract too much attention. But then, when William edits uncontroverial aspects of CC articles, that attention is always part of the problem that one has to get rid of anyway. Count Iblis (talk) 16:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

(undent) WMC, I'm going to be very blunt: your delusions of persecution are unfounded. I don't know why you are under the impression that you are, somehow important or significant enough to warrant vast conspiracies to victimize you. You were not singled out. You were not discussed any more or less than the other bit players in a tiresome dispute over the CC area. The only reason you have been further sanctioned is that, unlike most of the other disputants, you continue to battle your way around. Rlevse was not "kicked out" of anything, certainly not on your account. Any illusion to the contrary is nothing but delusions of grandeur and importance. — Coren  16:21, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

How much behind-the-scenes lobbying was going on with parties or other interested individuals? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:28, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, absolutely none beyond the usual emailed pleas for special treatment (and even those were surprisingly few for a case of this magnitude). Emailing the committee during a case and about the case normally has no result other than annoy the arbs; though in rare cases there are private elements that are taken into account in the decision -- none such in this case. I think there was two or three direct inquiries about specific points sent out by arbs during the case (I'd have to trawl a few thousand emails' worth of archive to check); but as far as I can remember they did not raise any issue of note and did not affect the decision.

There was, of course, discussion of the case on the mailing list — though nowhere to the extent that some people imagine — but they were not substantive points but points of process; things like coordination of who was to write new proposals, suggested rewordings, exhortations to vote and get the effing case done. But, unlike what some people imagine, the actual nature of the decision gets very little attention on the list: you'll see the vast majority of that discussion and give-and-take on the decision page proper. — Coren  16:44, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, if we're being blunt: I think that you, like SF, are lying. Repeating the same lies doesn't make them any more true William M. Connolley (talk) 16:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

(EC) I know for a fact that there was more going with non-arbs than "two or three direct inquiries about specific points," because I received emails (unbidden) from one or more arbs about the case. I don't think it's necessarily the case that Coren is lying; he can't be expected to know what other arbs are sending from their personal accounts as opposed to official arbcom mail. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think there is any question that you are sincere in your beliefs. Given that they do not match reality, constructing an elaborate fantasy of conspiracy behind the scenes to explain the discrepancy is indeed the common, if regrettable, reaction. I'll not overstay my already frayed welcome here. SBHB, if you want to continue this discussion, you are welcome on my talk page. — Coren  16:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC) (Note: The first two statements were a reply to WMC, not SBHB — Coren  17:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC))

Hmm. Obviously the emails I think I received were imaginary. I'll have to quit taking all that DMT for breakfast. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Post the emails on William's WikiLeaks page. Count Iblis (talk) 17:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Faced with a choice between trusting you or Coren, I will certainly pick you William M. Connolley (talk) 17:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

(ecx2) :::::If that's the case, why wasn't more of the case discussed out in the open? I think that is what the problem is with this and what the editors here are trying to say. More conversations were needed out in the open. --CrohnieGal 17:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Ironically, I've started a mailing list discussion on this very point. But it is an important point that deserves wider input. I suggest you find a suitable venue to ask arbitrators as a group how they use the mailing list and what purpose it serves in general and how to balance mailing list discussion with on-wiki interaction with case parties and case page discussions. What I will say here, though, is that is is dangerous to make assumptions what is being discussed and what is not being discussed. Carcharoth (talk) 04:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Carcharoth, if I may ask, would I be wrong if I inferred from your comment here that my comment on Jimbo's talk page was incorrect in its substance? EdChem (talk) 07:44, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Most of what you said there was correct, though it is possible to spend "an enormous amount of time" on a case without there being "considerable email activity". There was some e-mail activity (sometimes quite extensive), but always less than people seem to think. I would put a more precise figure on it, but threads drift off-topic, so that is difficult. The bits I found myself agreeing with were the following: "I suspect that some editors will probably be expected to show considerably more reform before an appeal will be successful" and "Hopefully some of the more valuable editors amongst the banned will demonstrate again their value to[REDACTED] and so receive more favourable treatment when it comes to appeals". I should note here that due to the timing of the case, and my decision (stated on my user page) not to stand in the upcoming ArbCom elections, I won't actually be on the committee for any appeals at the 6-month mark, but I will continue to follow arbitration matters (especially those related to cases I was active on) and comment if asked to do so. Carcharoth (talk) 08:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

No, EdChem, you weren't wrong at all, though detailed discussions mostly involved sub-groups rather than the committee as a whole. The case went through several phases, with considerable discussion among the drafting arbitrators in the earliest phase. Later, Shell and I worked on individual findings and she and I discussed many of those too. Several discussions, en banc, took place to see what broad consensus existed for various approaches but, as is always the case, these don't bind arbitrators to voting in one direction or another on the individual principles, FoFs, etc once posted. This can be seen in the number of principles and FoFs which either didn't pass or which were substantially amended. Both Coren and Carcharoth are absolutely right in saying that the public perception of extensive and detailed behind-the-scenes horse-trading in smoke-filled rooms is inaccurate.  Roger 08:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I think ArbCom would revoke the ban in a suspended animation passenger's heartbeat if WMC would promise to play nice, and actually do so. Some of the most uncivil blocked / banned editors are back here feeding their Misplaced Pages addictions with a new account and a fresh start. I thought the block was nonsense on a technical level, but if it weren't this it would be something else. I wish I had some constructive advice but I'm stumped. Anyway, WMC has contributed quite a bit to Misplaced Pages and by extension the world, so... thanks! - Wikidemon (talk) 02:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

As ever, WMC has pushed right up to the boundary of normal playing nice, and acted in a constructive way which has been accepted from other (in this case topic-banned) editors in the past. For example, responding to discussion here by saying "liars" isn't really civil, is unwise, and is certainly undiplomatic. It's probably twattery too, but such terms should be avoided, not least because they have different cultural connotations across the globe.

Carcharoth proposes a sensible way forward at #ArbCom enforcement:Talk page access above. @ WMC, my strong recommendation is to do what's suggested, politely and carefully. . . dave souza, talk 06:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

@AW: I'm sure you mean well but my reply to MM applies. @Wd: I can't parse your first sentence. @Ds: I don't understand your assessment of C's proposal; see above William M. Connolley (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

AW's comments seem sensible, if "Wiki self-preservation" is your aim, as may not be. The degree of hostility that I'm seeing directed at you is remarkable. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't think that your comments @MM applied. I don't care about martyrdom, etc., or any dramas. Just seems like your participation in your area of expertise is currently and indefinitely not permitted, so there's only one option left. Of course, Scotty brings up my first major assumption, which may be wrong (my others are that you are not going to run around and make FAs on other things that you don't care so much about and that arbcomm won't unban you if you don't). But if I am wrong about #1, then what is your motive? Awickert (talk) 18:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Awickert (talk) 18:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

@ WMC, my assessment of Carcharoth's proposal made in the #Breakage section above (dunno if the heading changed or if I got it wrong) is that you should request unblocking to file a request to ArbCom that they rule on a clarification in specific respect of your wish to use your user talk space to point out vandalism and other 'breakage' within the topic area.
Perhaps Carcharoth will advise further, but it would seem reasonable that you could then point out that your noting such breakage in a non-confrontational way on your own talk page is not specifically ruled out in the ArbCom decision, and is established by past practice as well as by the common sense point that the novel interpretation of this restriction is much more restrictive than the standard Exceptions to limited bans, which usually allows "Reverting obvious vandalism (such as replacing a page with obscenities) or obvious violations of the policy about biographies of living persons. The key word is "obvious", that is, cases in which no reasonable person could possibly disagree." . . dave souza, talk 19:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Carcharoth's proposal is at once interesting and a bit confusing. He mixes past ("the sensible course of action...would have been") and future ("if WMC would like to file") tenses in such a way that it isn't clear whether he's describing what WMC should have done, of whether an appeal remains a viable option. So clarification from Carcharoth would be helpful before going further. In any event Arbcom have already expended a great deal of discussion and political capital saying that although it was not stated at the time they meant for ban to apply even to innocuous comments on users' own talk pages. Under the circumstances I doubt that they would do a complete volte-face in response to an appeal but who knows. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:15, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

C's proposal makes no sense at all. If C thinks that it is unclear whether the arbcomm decision cover talk pages, then it would immeadiately be clear to him that the block on me is unjust: it cannot possibly be reasonable to block someone with no warning for something that arbcomm have not clearly stated is blockable William M. Connolley (talk) 21:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Some other arbs may or may not think so, C's proposal gives a way forward to raising that formally for ArbCom discussion, putting the point over and giving at least a reasonable prospect that you will be unblocked and authorised to continue making careful and non-confrontational reports of breakage on your talk page. No point in just shaking the prison bars demanding justice when a way to justice is open to you. . . dave souza, talk 22:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of other things to edit but I doubt that if I were WMC I would bother to do so in the near term. FA work is fine and I'm sure WMC could assist in non CC related article improvement but once a bulls eye get painted on anyone of this high a profile on this project, someone is always going to be the ready to play smackdown if such an editor so much as twitches "incorrectly"...my understanding as it was clarified to me was that user talkpages, even your own user talkpage are taboo for issues related to the topic ban.--MONGO 03:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

What we have here is a sort of Cultural Revolution where intellectuals are surrounded and shouted down by brainwashed youths in the strident and peculiar language of revolutionary Wikislogans. Your bourgeois "knowledge" is outmoded, your glasses have been crushed beneath their boots, and you must make a fresh start at the bottom of the new workers' hierarchy, scrubbing toilets and washing dishes.24.18.132.13 (talk) 08:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

@DS: All the other arbs have seen this - but anyway, we're managing to have the same conversation in two places in one page, which isn't helpful. @MONGO: I've never been intersted in the FA hoops William M. Connolley (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Choose your place, will continue at #Breakage unless advised otherwise, in triplicate. . . dave souza, talk 16:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Loss of an arbitrator? --CrohnieGal 12:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

He seems miffed at a couple of things unrelated to arbcom. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I think this is entirely to do with DYK. Polargeo 2 (talk) 11:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Bit of a shame really William M. Connolley (talk) 12:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't just DYK. He was an author of the FA on the main page for Halloween, and was accused of plagiarism and a copyvio in a way that exacerbated the damage from the attacks on DYK. I suspect (on little evidence) that he was also fairly burned out recently. I had issues with Rlevse as an arbitrator, but his work at DYK was tireless and of an extremely high standard. I for one am very sad to see him lost from the project entirely, his contribution is sorely missed. EdChem (talk) 13:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

No-one's perfect, and judge not, lest ye be judged, comes to mind. Both DYK and FA promote competition among editors, rather than a primary interest in providing factual well-balanced info for everyone, and FA in my experience can be pretty stressful. Plagiarism is subject to assessment, and it's not all that obvious where to strike the right balance between faithfully following the source and finding your own way of saying things. Rlevse obviously did a lot of good work, but for whatever reason may have felt it appropriate to cut corners in producing DYK and FA articles. More tolerance of imperfection and focus on improving article quality rather than on getting rid of editors would be a Good Thing. . . . dave souza, talk 13:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages needs to do away with the whole FA process. It does not evaluate article quality in a meaningful way, and promotes a reward-driven mentality. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree. We all know how difficult it can be to tread the line of proper recognition of sources. I believe I fall the right side of the line but then I don't have 20 DYKs and 10 FAs (I have always had a certain disdain of editors with long lists of DYKs running for RfA, with that as their main selling point). Rlevse was clearly trying to attribute to sources properly and trying not to cross the line. However, when you have skipped close to the line so much and the wikiwolves sink their teeth into you there is little you can do (that goes for many aspects of wikipedia). Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Yup, the entire reward-driven mentality is broken. And, of course, the recent arbcomm decision just reinforces the brokenness. Incidentally, in case I'm misunderstood: I meant, it is a shame that he didn't stand down for being a rubbish arb, which is why he really deserved to go William M. Connolley (talk) 14:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes but he was no less rubbish than most of the rest of them. Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you are wrong there - he was rubbish and malicious too William M. Connolley (talk) 15:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I get the impression most of the "advanced" permissions users have a tendency to be malicious. It seems to me that those who crave power tend not to think so much when exercising it and just play their political games. Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I'm puzzled; is this extremely subtle sarcasm, or do you mean he was no more rubbish than the rest of them?

Re: Rlevse, I find it hard to believe that people opining above are familiar with the facts of the matter. I'm aware that the contradictory rules of Misplaced Pages leave editors walking a fine line between "stick to the source" and "don't stick to the source too closely" but this was way on the far side of that line. That people are dismissing such blatant copying as an example of "wikiwolves sinking their teeth" into Rlevse when he should have been given the benefit of the doubt, is baffling to me. It seems to me that he was given altogether too much benefit of the doubt during the FA process, and I've been surprised to learn that there is nothing in the process of reviewing articles for FA that requires that fidelity to sources be checked, let alone too-close-copying of copyrighted sources. That an entire passage of mostly directly copied text remained in an article being featured on the main page is a serious problem for the encyclopedia. That Rlevse still doesn't seem to understand what was wrong with directly lifting text from USA Today, and is still reportedly angry at those who uncovered the problem rather than sorry to have embarrassed the encyclopedia by "cutting corners," as dave put it, is the last straw on the balance of my judgment of him as an arbitrator (which BTW is based on his actions in an area far from CC; I've never followed CC except for the proposed decision and its talk page).

re Shell: She has been hounded relentlessly by a couple of guys with a terminal case of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, who still won't let it go even after being told repeatedly to stop; to take one remark out of context out of that whole tendentious discussion to make a point of your own seems to me a cheap shot. Woonpton (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

As to Rlevse this is not the place to go into the details of copyright, I agree he made mistakes but I also think the wolves are ripping him to shreds over them in a very undignified way. As to Shell who are the hounders? fnord Tell us and the cabal will get them for you/her. Policing[REDACTED] behind the sceens is what we do!! fnord Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Mistakes? That reminds me of the famous saying "mistakes were made" excusing a major coverup on the part of high-level US administration. At any rate, I don't know where you're seeing "wolves" ripping Rlevse to shreds; it must be on some page I'm not watching. All I'm seeing is people making excuses for him and defending him and leaving tearful messages on his talk page. You're right, this isn't the place to debate copyright, but copyright really isn't that difficult. Every now and then, IRL, I run across copies of things I've written (here I'm talking about general-purpose writing, not scientific or statistical writing) taken and used in places where I never gave permission for it to be used, by people who never asked my permission to copy the text. People think that as long as they attribute the text to the writer, they have satisfied the requirements of copyright. No, you can't copy copyrighted work without the permission of the copyright owner; that's what copyright means.Woonpton (talk) 17:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Shall we start with MZMs fairly sly angled comment at the crats noticeboard or shall wee look at the baying hounds against DYK at ANI or any other forum. Self righteousness is not a good servant on wikipedia. Polargeo 2 (talk) 17:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

If you really think the question at the bureaucrats noticeboard (which seems a very reasonable question to me; if Rlevse comes back is he to be considered as having left under a cloud or not?) is an example of "wolves tearing Rlevse to shreds" then we apparently aren't speaking the same language, which makes it difficult to have a reasonable conversation. As for the questions about DYK, they seem very legitimate questions to me, and the information that has come to light about the DYK process during that discussion doesn't reflect well on the encyclopedia IMO. But it looks like we're not going to agree about that either, nor on whether raising questions about problems in the DYK process constitutes ripping Rlevse to shreds, nor apparently, by extension, on whether he should have kept his arb seat after the violations were discovered. So let's just agree to disagree and call it a day. Woonpton (talk) 17:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, *I*d also forgotten where Shell came in. No, I don't think that is a cheap shot. I was pissed off when (during the Abd case) Rlevse came well off the fence as neutral arbiter and started presenting evidence; I raised the propriety of this at the time and was fobbed off. So for Shell to pretend that it doesn't happen is just not acceptable William M. Connolley (talk) 17:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'll concede the point. Woonpton (talk) 17:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hold on, this *is* the .flame newsgroup, isn't it? You're not allowed to be reasonable :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 18:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Please don't be too hard on Shell. I think she got it wrong on this point but she's basically decent. We all have our foibles. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Agree with all about Rlevse. Disagree about arbs focussing on content. This argument is extremely weak, all the arbs needed to do in the recent case was apply appropriate considered tailored sanctions to remedy editor behaviour and address the concerns regarding the probation. In the end they applied a lazy one size fits all punitive sanction which sanctioned most editors far more than was fair and maybe one or two editors got off without being banned from wikipedia. This failled to address the problems in the area 'going forward' I am probably at the limit of what I can discuss now even though it is about a sanction against myself!! Polargeo 2 (talk) 17:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)