Revision as of 22:10, 27 December 2011 editNableezy (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers56,197 edits →Statement by Nableezy← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 19:45, 22 January 2025 edit undoSmallangryplanet (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,198 edits →Request concerning שלומית ליר: Add additional comments by editor filing complaint (2025-01-22)Tag: 2017 wikitext editor | ||
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==שלומית ליר== | |||
== Arbitration enforcement action appeal by The Devil's Advocate == | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
<small>''Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in . According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. <p>To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see ]).''</small> | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Smallangryplanet}} 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|שלומית ליר}}<p>{{ds/log|שלומית ליר}}</p> | |||
; Appealing user : {{userlinks|The Devil's Advocate}} – ] (]) 02:04, 16 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
; Sanction being appealed : Topic ban from the subject September 11 attacks, imposed at | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
:, logged at | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
:] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows: | |||
; Administrator imposing the sanction : {{admin|Wgfinley}} | |||
*2014 to 2016: no edits. | |||
; Notification of that administrator : | |||
*2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA. | |||
*2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace. | |||
*2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of ] complaining about its content and calling it . | |||
* 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October. | |||
**Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits). | |||
**In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day. | |||
**Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the ] article where they with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and without providing a reason why. | |||
**They also edited the ] article, with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content . | |||
**they also in the second AfD for ] despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA. | |||
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full . I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic. | |||
===Statement by The Devil's Advocate=== | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
Requests for enforcement are to be made and ruled on to prevent someone ''acting'' in breach of policy in a topic area from continuing to act in breach of policy. Any request should not be ] i.e. seeking to tack on additional sanctions after an admin has already issued sanctions for the action. In other words, an editor should not be brought up repeatedly and sanctioned repeatedly for the exact same edits. On November 30th I was topic-banned from the 9-11 topic area. Before that I was ] by ] due to a judgment that I was edit-warring. Each time the same series of edits were presented as the bulk of the case. In fact, ] appears to have simply copy-pasted part of the edit-warring notice to the AE request. ], the admin who issued the topic ban, gave pertaining solely to those edits for which I had already been blocked. His argument also that I pointed out to him on his talk page. After that he changed his arguments in the discussions on his talk page, though never admitting to the error or providing a new reason on AE. Even then to focus on those edits for which I had already been blocked. | |||
<!-- The following are examples. Write "Not applicable" or similar if this is not a discretionary sanctions enforcement request. Otherwise, fill out at least one line that applies and delete the rest. If you wish to request discretionary sanctions but none of these situations apply, issue an alert yourself instead of making this request, see the link above. --> | |||
*Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on and re-iterated on (see the system log linked to above). | |||
*Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on by {{admin|Femke}}. | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
In addition to the punitive nature of the topic ban, WG's argument to have "acted per the AE report" presents another issue with the sanction. The AE report itself is full of distortions, omissions, and uncivil remarks that plainly misrepresented the nature of the dispute. Some simple issues are: | |||
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a , , , and . They've also been . If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is ) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. ] (]) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Adding some more comments on 2025-01-22: The user in question says that they have been on[REDACTED] for years – and so surely aware of what does and does not count as canvassing. As recently as last month they were , as well as I've already mentioned. I understand that we are always meant to ], but we are looking at a situation in which a user (1) has extensive experience with Misplaced Pages and (2) is encouraging people, subtly and not so subtly to do things that are against our policies. ] (]) 19:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
#The edits for which I had already been blocked were presented as being nothing more than the removal of information, with one edit being cited twice as though it were a separate offense, even though the editor filing the report I had moved all the information to another article already, expressing my opinion it was where the material more rightly belonged. | |||
#One of the few edits I made after the block that was presented as evidence of the need for enforcement was me shortening a caption by removing wording that appeared to be nothing more than the fair-use rationale from the image's page. Jordgette argued on AE that the change was pushing the controlled demolition POV, an argument I still find bizarre. | |||
#Jordgette made numerous uncivil comments in the AE report about me "feigning" impartiality and "hiding behind" WP:AGF adding the comment "enjoy yourselves on this one" after citing my insistence that the previous edit-warring block was wrong. | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
A more complicated distortion concerned one of the arguments presented several times and one that WG gave as part of the reason for the topic ban and that was this idea that I was not discussing my changes first despite being asked to do so. Jordgette provided a long list of comments to prove the contention, but neglected that was only accusing me of acting against consensus. Four of the comments cited were responses to ] asking an editor to explain why he had reverted changes I had made since he did not provide an explanation. After the last comment the editor made on that section I started ] and ] to get consensus for two of my changes. To present those comments to suggest I have not sought consensus on changes or worked collaboratively with other editors is a blatant and obvious distortion as they are evidence that I was doing the exact opposite. involved discussion over a change I noted several times was to address a grammatical error, something they ultimately acknowledged needed to be fixed. That edit being disputed was actually the one that led to the AE request and again demonstrated the opposite of what Jordgette was claiming about my desire to get consensus. Adding insult to injury Jordgette took a comment I made out of its proper context to state "yet he refuses because he doesn't 'need the approval of your group'" when my comment was actually in the context of me saying I would consider it more acceptable to need approval for ''any'' change were it not for several unhelpful comments they had made in response to my efforts at getting them to explain their reasons for disagreeing with my changes. In context, the comment was my objection to a revert that undid I made to the article seemingly implying I needed to get consensus for any rewriting or restructuring of the article. The context was obviously not beyond Jordgette when adding it to the report. | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
That the AE report contained so many blatant distortions and was rife with incivility should have gotten it declined right off the bat, even if it had not been mostly a proposal for punitive action over edits for which I had already been blocked. Absent those pre-block edits that report would likely have been dismissed as frivolous and without merit. I am requesting that this topic ban be lifted as a wrongful sanction.--] (]) 02:04, 16 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:I should note that in WG's statement below he has essentially recited the distortions from the AE report that I mention above verbatim, even after I explicitly pointed out how these were distortions. Despite what he might believe, ] does not mean the only legitimate appeal is a plea for clemency, but instead that appeals challenging the legitimacy of the ban should only address how the sanction violated policy. That WG indicated his decision was informed by the AE report means distortions in the AE report that go to the very core of the arguments for the ban are very much a legitimate point to bring up in an appeal. Citing NOTTHEM to suggest otherwise is a clear-cut case of wikilawyering. Notably WG has not addressed the very first issue I raised above about his argument and the AE report focusing on edits for which I had already been blocked.--] (]) 06:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
::@Jordgette I am raising legitimate issues about the AE report that WG said served as the basis for the topic ban. Simply saying there were distortions would be unhelpful without explaining the extent and severity of the distortion. That you completely altered the meaning of my comment in the request for a topic ban and WG repeated that distorted wording here to defend the topic ban means it is certainly of significant relevance to the overall legitimacy of the topic ban. My argument for the legitimacy of the action interpreted as a violation of the topic ban was favoring the spirit over the letter, but what I am saying here is explicitly covered by both.--] (]) 08:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by שלומית ליר==== | |||
Since WG claims I continued my supposedly "tendentious editing habits" after the block I figure I should just provide a complete listing of all the edits I made to the article after the block. Here they are: . On the last diff I gave the following explanations on the article talk page: . I doubt any objective individual could look at those edits together and conclude they represent tendentious behavior.--] (]) 08:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.] (]) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: I was given clarification from an admin regarding my concerns and will now be drafting a response. Thank you for your patience. ] (]) 21:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
First and foremost, I value accuracy and transparency and am fully prepared to address any verified errors or missteps. My contributions are made in good faith, with only the intention of supporting Misplaced Pages’s mission. I am a veteran editor on Hebrew wiki, yet am learning to appreciate the sometimes stark differences in rules in this section, so am doing my very best to keep up to speed and abide fully as I edit further here. | |||
As a longtime editor on another wiki who finally decided this year to match pace on English wiki, I strenuously reject any accusations of EC gaming when a passing glance on my global log will confirm I have not radically altered my editing pace nor article focus. In regards to NPOV concerns, I will defer to the numerous comments below affirming that there is no policy violation by having an opinion, onsite or off, and must register mild complaint that NPOV accusations are being leveled here without any policy violation having been affirmed on any of these individual contributions. | |||
While contributions observed superficially (and without clear context of edit conversation and interaction with other editors) may appear to be agenda oriented, if I were granted more word counts, I would happily highlight the context of most edits made to make clear I was pushing back against previous bias efforts (past and present) by editors (including a number on the precipice of sanction in PIA5). Perhaps it would have been wiser to report what I felt was POV editing behavior instead of pushing back, but I only believed my efforts were to restore and preserve article balance, not disrupt it. | |||
I am grateful for the admin guidance received so far and appreciate being better informed about certain grey areas. I meant no intention to remotely approach anything resembling canvassing and believed the commentary was allowable (most especially since it was on a proceeding I was neither participating in, nor linking out to). I understand now that this may be perceived as “call to action” which was not remotely the intent, most especially to an audience that is mostly academic and, to the best of my knowledge, does not edit Misplaced Pages. (I also humbly must point out that no report was made indicating any increase in activity to suggest editors had been canvassed). I have now been well appraised and will take great care and caution to ensure no further off-site commentary remotely approaches such this territory of concern. If there are any questions or doubts in the future, I will seek future guidance from admins before venturing into potentially questionable territory. ] (]) 01:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Thebiguglyalien==== | |||
@NW I am not sure what exactly you are calling a mistake, but if it is about the topic ban being issued over edits for which I had already been blocked it seems that it was not a mistake. On several occasions I brought up that most of the edits were ones for which I had already been blocked. WG clearly seemed to eventually understand that this was the case, but in spite of that he still insisted on the topic ban based almost entirely, if not entirely, on those edits. An admin should certainly be aware that such a sanction might be a violation of policy. Should the mistake be about the AE report, the only possible mistake would be on WG's part in not adequately evaluating the merits of the case. I do not think there was any "mistake" on Jordgette's part as some of the distortions are so blatant that the only reasonable conclusion is that the distortions were intentional. For an admin to miss such obvious distortions does not seem to be a minor mistake.--] (]) 05:00, 19 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision ] and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "]" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. ] (]) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report | |||
====Statement by Selfstudier==== | |||
@MONGO My comments on your talk page were not really intended to be a discussion about improvements to the article. It was more of a general discussion about my editing philosophy and my perspective on the subject. There was never any specific intention that it lead to some definitive end. As such the "unproductive" nature of it does not really deal with this situation. When I have initiated discussion regarding changes to the article the results have generally been productive, even if it is at times difficult to get anything out of the process.--] (]) 06:23, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at ]. ] (]) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by starship.paint (2)==== | |||
===== Clarification on distortions ===== | |||
It seems there is a need for me to spell out exactly what distortions were contained in the AE report. Here are the most blatant distortions: | |||
I would to like to raise at ], where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph ({{tq|On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...}}) that שלומית ליר added to ( / ) from the ]. '''The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph''' (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. '''] (] / ])''' 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:'''Distortion''' - The following comments by Tom Harrison were cited as evidence of me being "asked numerous times to discuss significant changes to this article and find consensus first" (to quote the AE report) and not doing so: | |||
====Statement by xDanielx==== | |||
:'''Reality''' - All of the above comments came from asking Tom Harrison to explain why he reverted certain material. One of the comments from that exchange Jordgette left out in the AE report was this one: . There Tom specifically said I should get consensus for addressing two issues I raised and my response was to start to discuss it. One of the issues as a result of that discussion. With regards to the other issue where I found more resistance my response was to . That sequence of events clearly suggests those comments cited in the AE report were evidence that even when an editor was refusing to discuss his own actions I responded positively to requests for getting consensus. You will further note that even though I never got a real explanation from Tom on his revert, I made no effort whatsoever to reinstate those changes. | |||
{{yo|Arcticocean}} I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a ''pattern'' of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation. | |||
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the , but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. ] attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>\<sup>]</sup> 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:'''Distortion''' - Another comment included as evidence of me being asked to discuss changes first was this one: | |||
==== Statement by Hemiauchenia ==== | |||
:'''Reality''' - That comment was made due to the first two changes I made after the block (two of the post-block changes cited as evidence in the AE report and the changes that were the initial reason for the report). The did make some changes that were understandably, though wrongly, perceived as tendentious (see my explanation for those changes here: ). Tom's comment was specifically a response to the I made restoring the other changes that were reverted (here is Tom's partial revert of that second edit: ). I repeatedly noted that I was correcting a grammatical error and Jordgette that there was a grammatical error in need of correcting, though all the same failing to assume that my efforts to correct said error were being done in good faith. I made to the relevant material to address lingering issues I had with the wording that received no objections. Once more, the context of the situation demonstrates that I am more than capable of editing in a collaborative manner contrary to the AE report's claims. | |||
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January | |||
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks: {{quote|If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on | |||
@Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.}} | |||
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD ]. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. ] (]) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . ] (]) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Cdjp1==== | |||
:'''Distortion''' - The AE report follows up that list of comments with the claim "he refuses because he doesn't 'need the approval of your group'" quoting on the AE report. | |||
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about () in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- ] (]) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Sean.hoyland==== | |||
:'''Reality''' - Here is the quote in context: | |||
It has been several days. Perhaps שלומית ליר could clarify whether their belief about the way Misplaced Pages works turned out to be a true belief or a false belief so that this report can progress. ] (]) 09:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Vice regent==== | |||
:{{quote|text=Now, the insistence that I need the approval of your group, because that is what we are really talking about here as you and people of your shared opinion frequent the article most, for '''any''' change would be '''more acceptable''' if you would not say things like "snore" when reverting my comments on your talk page about the need for you to explain your reasons for reverting changes or refer to my pleas for discussion as "chaff" as Tom did.}} | |||
I'm satisfied by שלומית ליר's above explanation regarding canvassing. People with bad canvassing intentions don't reveal their identity. ''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 04:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
:One thing you might notice from the bolded comments is that I explicitly indicated I was not refusing the condition that I get approval for certain changes. I objected to the idea that I needed it for ''any'' change made to the article, perhaps it would have been better to have said "every" as that was more reflective of my objection. Even then, I did not say I refused such a condition, but that Jordgette and Tom's behavior with regards to my efforts at discussion did not make it a particularly acceptable demand. | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result concerning שלומית ליר=== | |||
In WG's statement below he literally copy-pastes the part of the AE report including all these distortions into his own remarks defending the topic ban. He claims, apparently based on that part of the report, that I am "disruptive" and not going to "work collaboratively to achieve consensus" so the distortions are obviously germane to any dispute of the topic ban and are not simply efforts to blame other people. The evidence here is as plain as day and there are plenty more distortions to be found in the AE report WG cited as justifying the topic ban. So, I would ask that any admin insisting there was no real wrongdoing in this case to actually explain to me why these blatant distortions in the AE report that WG cites explicitly to defend the topic ban are not sufficient grounds for lifting the topic ban.--] (]) 01:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. ] (]) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. ] (]) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. ] (]) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of ] I would consider something more stringent. ] (]) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* While I understand {{u|Vanamonde93}}'s concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. ] places an obligation to {{xtn|Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the ]}}. The linked page provides that {{xtn|Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence}}. If an editor is ''only'' adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making ''only'' one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the ''whole article'' is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. ] 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed {{logid|166341641|at 17:33, 8 December 2024}}, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict: | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ]. | |||
::* ] which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, ''Massacre of pensioners'', and ]. | |||
::* ], therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; ]; ]. | |||
::* ], then ], both to the first line of the article. | |||
::* ] and ]. | |||
::* On the talk pages, there has been a ] although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments. | |||
::* There are then edits to ]: ]; ]. At ], there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, ] (]). | |||
:: Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. ] 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: {{re|xDanielx}} Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to ]. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken ''as a whole'' the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the ''percentage'' of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about ]. ] 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*The offwiki canvassing is a problem...{{u|שלומית ליר}}, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware ] is not allowed? ] (]) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:For transparency, שלומית ליר reached out to me, and I explained multiple policy and advised her to go ahead and respond here without waiting for individual feedback from her email to arbcom, which may or may not happen. ] (]) 22:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I take it that per {{u|Barkeep49}}'s brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (]), and then restoration of the same (]), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*It's not for AE to decide content disputes, and that's mostly what this looks like. We can handle things like flagrant misrepresentation of sources, but how ''best'' to represent them is a matter for consensus discussion, not us to decide here. The canvassing was a cause for concern, but it looks like it was rather unintended and had little if any actual effect, and they've agreed to stop that going forward. (Note that doesn't mean anyone must stop criticizing Misplaced Pages or what happens on it; do all of that you like. Just don't encourage people to take particular actions based on that.) I don't see any further action as necessary at this point. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 16:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:+1 ] (]) 18:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Luganchanka== | |||
===== On efforts at consensus ===== | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
Some admins apparently want me to more clearly explain my behavior in editing the article so I will. Rather than re-argue about discussion over the edits for which I was blocked by EdJohnston I will direct anyone to look at my arguments in , as well as , and subsequent . | |||
===Request concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
I will here try to offer a clear explanation of my actions after that block expired. In I made on the edit-warring block I committed myself to discussing and getting approval for major or controversial changes. The admin declined my request because I insisted I was not edit-warring or pushing a POV. Looking back I did not fully adhere to the rather stringent conditions I had imposed on myself in that request (that of not making ''any changes at all'' to substantive content without approval), but when the block expired the still did not make any changes that could be perceived in any way as tendentious. When making a change to correct a grammatical I did make that were seen as tendentious, though as I I was not introducing any original wording but just copying wording from the source or wording from earlier in the same sentence. After I made those edits I went to the talk page and . | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Hemiauchenia}} 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Luganchanka}}<p>{{ds/log|Luganchanka}}</p> | |||
Those edits to the article were , even as the editor doing so acknowledged that there were uncontroversial changes included. I reinserted the various uncontroversial changes elsewhere in the article, as well as the correction of the grammatical error in the conspiracy theory paragraph, and to explain my frustration with the constant and unnecessary reverting of uncontroversial changes as well as explaining my changes to the conspiracy theory paragraph. Another editor objected to my reinsertion of the grammatical fix, believing it was POV-pushing, and reverted it but after some discussion they understood that there was a grammatical error in need of fixing. That particular instance of me reinserting the grammatical fix is what seemingly caused the filing editor to go to AE, while we were still having a discussion about it. | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
I to the article right after the case was filed shortening a few captions and retooling the wording in the grammatical fix. One of the captions was shortened by removing a sentence that, by all appearances, was just a repeat of the fair-use justification provided on the image's page. , but there was no discussion on the article talk page as it was immediately taken to the AE request and tacked on to the case as evidence of POV-pushing. All discussion of that change was in the AE report, though even there no effort was made by the editor who reverted it to explain why this was perceived as POV-pushing. Several after that were similarly uncontroversial and minor but did not get challenged. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
As this was going on, at getting either of the two main editors on the article to respond to the discussions I started immediately after coming off my block were going unanswered. One editor's reaction was to direct me to the AE report where he referring to my requests for discussion as "chaff" i.e. nonsense. Despite that I once more and finally got a response. Despite I got . Again, in spite of this, I on some of the issues (I did and still have interest in discussion over those other issues). One result of the first discussion was an editor , as the existing one was no longer going to the correct page, and me . | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
One week into the AE discussion I made over the space of two days that were completely consistent with my pledge in the second unblock request. These changes involved refactoring of paragraphs to improve the flow of the article without having any effect on meaning, improving wording or clarifying wording in several areas, and removing outdated or unnecessary citations. For some of those changes I for editors to raise any objections. Just like several other changes the first reaction of these editors was not to discuss them in the article page but to object on the AE report to me making any changes to the article at all without asking them first, even when they to the actual edits being made. | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | |||
# Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child. | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
An editor then saying in the edit summary that I should get consensus first. I that reverting due to consensus was not a legitimate reason, imploring him to express his objection on the article talk page in either of the sections I started on those edits or to start a new section for discussion. After a day of no action for him to explain the revert and once more to explain his objections to the change. Not getting a response for over two days to explain his objections to the changes. When I saw him comment on the aforementioned RfC on the talk page if he would respond to the section I started on the talk page asking him to explain what objections he had to the changes that he reverted. At no point did my repeated requests for discussion get a response. | |||
BLP CTOP warning given | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
Ever since I came off the block I made every effort to discuss major or contentious changes with the other editors on the article and pursuing normal dispute resolution. Accusing me of not being able to work collaboratively with other editors is getting the situation reversed. I made numerous efforts to get the opinions of these editors about any and all major changes, but many times they were not willing to provide explanation even when I was only asking them to explain why they reverted changes, something they are generally expected to do when using the undo function. | |||
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. ]. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by {{Ping|NatGertler}} , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August ], but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. ] (]) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the ] discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. ] (]) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: RfC opened ]. ] (]) 16:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use {{subst:AE-notice|thread name}}), and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
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===Discussion concerning Luganchanka=== | |||
'''Despite all the frustration these editors have caused me I have never once refused discussion on any point or given them the silent treatment when they expressed a concern. Many times I have had discussion with them that did result in collaborative editing even in the incendiary atmosphere these editors have created. I am not claiming my behavior was perfect (on a few occasions I made some abrasive comments), but it was far from disruptive.'''--] (]) 23:45, 23 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
===Statement by WGFinley=== | |||
====Statement by Luganchanka==== | |||
My TBAN was based on the ]. The report contained examples of TDA's ] leading up to an ] and subsequent block. After the block he continued his ] habits, to quote the report, ignoring calls to build consensus before making substantive changes , yet he refuses because he doesn't "need the approval of your group" and continued to make extensive changes to the article. | |||
The intro on the ] page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I ], it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.] (]) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I for a TBAN after evaluating the report, I let that stand for 12 days for comment, seeing none I on 30 Nov. | |||
Please see the ], where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.] (]) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
An extensive exchange on my talk page ensued where I even offered to , instead he chose to continue pursuing his approach of appeal by completely ignoring ] and violating his TBAN which was upheld until it expired. I think it is premature to reduce the TBAN at this time, the complaint itself seems to do nothing to acknowledge any culpability for these actions but blames others for "distortions and incivility". It would appear TDA would go back and start disrupting the space again as he has provided no assurance he will seek to work collaboratively to achieve consensus. --] (]) 05:24, 16 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
: Thank you to @] and @] for your feedback. If you see the ], discussions - {{tq|14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"}} and {{tq|First sentence}}. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.] (]) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
@Jordgette: He's appealing his TBAN so he is free to bring up the issues that led to his TBAN without violating it. --] (]) 14:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:: Thank you for this ], I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!] (]) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>(moved from ] — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))</small> | |||
===Statement by Jordgette=== | |||
:: As per ]'s comments: | |||
As I understand it, topic bans are meant not to be punitive, but to prevent disruption. To that end, I have no comment at this time. I may soon find myself returning my attention to a single editor unilaterally and continuously altering a Featured Article on a controversial topic as he sees fit, while filling the discussion page with walls of text in protest, and the endless wikilawyering and filiblustering. But for now I prefer to improve articles. ] </small>]] 05:20, 16 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
{{tq|"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."}} | |||
:<strike>I'm a little confused WG...Is TDA's statement above not yet another violation of his topic ban? Most of it regards perceived injustices he suffered on the ] ("my comment was actually in the context of me saying I would consider it more acceptable to need approval for any change were it not for several unhelpful comments they had made in response to my efforts at getting them to explain their reasons for disagreeing with my changes...." etc.). I'm unclear on this boundary. ] </small>]] 07:13, 16 December 2011 (UTC)</strike> | |||
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle | |||
===Statement by Tom Harrison=== | |||
I'm reluctant to comment on this because a benefit of the topic ban is not having to deal with TDA's tedious logorrhea, but Wgfinley did the right thing. The constant nuisance of dealing with TDA wears people down; it would be far easier to leave the topic area and let him do what he wants, but it doesn't do to reward that kind of thing. The topic ban has at least been some respite, which I appreciate. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by MONGO=== | |||
I'd have to second Tom's comments above. A recent discussion at my own talkpage with The Devils Advocate was unproductive and his commentary there became increasingly frustrating. Mainstream articles on difficult topics are generally better if advocates for non-mainstream views are kept at bay. Tedious talkpage rantings usually undermine cooperative efforts for real article improvements.] 21:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
=== |
====Statement by NatGertler==== | ||
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per ]), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- ] (]) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
According to rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. This appeal is going nowhere, this discussion could be closed. ] (]) 23:21, 19 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Devil's Advocate === | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
===Result |
===Result concerning Luganchanka=== | ||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | :''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | ||
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*<!-- | |||
*If there is no one supporting this request, I'm inclined to close it shortly as declined. '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 04:34, 18 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
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:*To clarify, I would be disinclined to overturn the block because I do not think it was such an egregious mistake as to warrant immediate overturning. As another admin once said, "AE is not here to micromanage sanctions". <s>I would not be opposed to an appeal in 3 months after evidence of constructive editing in other topic areas. But</s> I'll leave this open for others to comment if they wish. '''<font color="navy">]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 04:21, 19 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:@]: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. ] (]/]) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I don't see any reason to change the status quo. The request is legalistic and not addressing the underlying problems that the tban was imposed for. ] (]) 21:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at ].--] (]) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* @], edit-warring ''to remove'' negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe ]whiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. ] (]) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, ] was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a ] issue. | |||
*:But even if you ''had'' been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ''ever'' edit war over. ] (]) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from ] seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to ] isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., ''that'' would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of {{tq|whitewash}} before writing this off as time-served. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — ] <sub>]</sub> 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make ]. The cited BBC source does not state {{tq| masturbated and ejaculated on camera}}, saying only {{tq|graphic sex act}}. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by ''New York Post'', a generally unreliable source. {{u|Luganchanka}}, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::The detail is in the record of ''Ritter v. Tuttle'' (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — ] <sub>]</sub> 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::Seeing ] here and ], ] at ], I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::{{yo|Luganchanka}} | |||
*:::::::] calls upon users to {{tq|{{strong|{{em|not}}}} use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person}}. There are some narrow exceptions (when {{tq|primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it {{em|may}} be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source}}), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal ''at best'' under our ]. | |||
*:::::::— ] <sub>]</sub> 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{yo|Luganchanka}} Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say {{tq|there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors}} regarding the lead? — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{yo|Luganchanka|Hemiauchenia}} | |||
*:It does seem that the discussion at ] does indicate some support for that language i.e. ({{tq|convicted child sex offender}}) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, while {{tq|There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences}} is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. | |||
*:That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got <s>]</s>two different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. | |||
*:Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. , which is cited in the ''body'' of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter {{tq|was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges}} in the state of PA (the PA statute is ; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it as {{tq|an offense of the same grade and degree}} as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding ''mens rea'' and ''actus reus'' here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is ''wise'' or ''optimal'' to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. | |||
*:Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward. | |||
*:In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A ] on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here. | |||
*:— ] <sub>]</sub> 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? ] (]) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Ping to @] ] (]) 18:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Luganchanka has been blocked for a week by ] for BLP violations and personal attacks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ] (]) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::With this in mind, I think we should wait to hear from RTH but otherwise expect to move forward to an indef p-block on top of SFR's stopgap action, as we haven't seen anything coming close to an adequate recognition of the relevant policies and practices from Luganchanka and after several second chances and nudges, I don't see reason to expect them to change course. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== |
==BabbleOnto== | ||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|ජපස}} 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|BabbleOnto}}<p>{{ds/log|BabbleOnto}}</p> | |||
===Request concerning Cptnono=== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : ] 14:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Cptnono}} | |||
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# |
# Sealioning | ||
# Refusal to ] | |||
# Personalizing an argument. | |||
# Railroading the discussion. | |||
This is all after I warned them about ] sanctions, and . Very nearly a ] on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate ]. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope. | |||
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# of interaction ban on 27 June 2011 | |||
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# ''advised to take greater care to avoid Nableezy in accordance with your interaction ban'' on 14 December 2011 | |||
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This is a ] with respect to the topic and their ] surrounding it has been subject to at least one ] thread that remains active: ]. The hope was that they would ] and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. ] (]) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The interaction ban specifies that Cptnono may not ''Reply to Nableezy in any discussion'' or ''Make reference to or comment on Nableezy, directly or indirectly, on any page''. He did both in that comment. He directly replied to a comment made by me, and he directly references me by saying ''you guys can keep it up'' while directly replying to me, and indirectly accuses me of filibustering and potentially violating an interaction while violating the interaction ban. I realize what happened with the last request, but this straightforward and should not be open to the type of drama that occurred last time. Can yall please actually enforce the ban? | |||
:''apparently nothing to do with Nableezy''? You serious? No other set of editors in that discussion has an interaction ban, who else was he referencing? Though I think an indef topic-ban is overkill, the comments are clearly a violation of the interaction ban. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:23, 20 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:Biosketch, you arent going to see me defending WGF's view, I dont agree with him and honestly I would rather he not involve himself in adminstering the topic area for reasons I have made abundantly clear in the past, regardless of what his view on this specific request is. However, you wrote that Cptnono's comments had ''apparently nothing to do'' with me. How can you make that comment in good faith? Directly replying to me, saying ''you guys can keep it up'', referencing an interaction ban in a discussion where the only people who have an interaction ban are the two of us. I would love to reply to Cptnono, I would love to give an honest response to the claim that ''this conversation will be filled with filibustering'' from others and that he is ''someone who is not an idiot''. But I am restricted from doing so. So I dont. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:Before Agada's "contribution" is taken at face value, the first diff he presented was my replying to Kauffner, not Cptnono. The second diff was of a reply I made to GabrielF, again not Cptnono. I have not nor will I in the future reply or reference Cptnono. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 00:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
It boggles the mind that somebody could say that I responded to Cptnono, or that I replied under a section heading that he made. Cptnono made a comment in an RFC, Tiamut replied to that, Kauffner to that, Tiamut to that, Kauffner to that, me to that, GabrielF to that, and me to that. There are a. no section headings, and b. no replies to anything Cptnono was even discussing. I directly replied to a comment made by Kauffner and to a reply made to me. Thats it. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 05:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:''Similar technical ...'' nonsense. There is no ''level heading'' and just days ago it was judged not to be a violation when Cptnono reverted an edit that I reverted after several others had intervened, and that had been an actual revert of the same material, and you Michael were, unsurprisingly and inconsistently, arguing that it was not a violation. I replied to a different user making a completely different point, after multiple layers of discussion, under nothing that can be called a ''level heading''. To pretend there is an equivalence here is simply dishonest. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 06:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
::Not exactly. In fact, not even a little bit. There is nowhere near the same ''distance''. The previous complaint was on a revert of the exact edit that I made. I was not replying to Cptnono in any way, I was directly responding to an unrelated point made by a different editor. And most importantly, it was decided that the ''distance'' in the previous complaint made it so there was no violation. Just in case you have forgotten that. You dont know why there is an interaction ban between the two of us, so kindly stop acting as though this is an issue of collaboration. And if you are at all interested in collaboration, try not distorting the events at every discussion that has nothing to do with you. That might engender some collaborative good will. Just might. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 06:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:::Michael, you continue to distort the events. There is no ''level heading'', I did not reply to Cptnono in any way, and Cptnono directly replied to me. Your attempts at distorting the events fail even the most basic test as anybody can look at the talk page. I replied to Kauffner and GabrielF. Cptnono replied to me. Therein lies the difference. In your silly attempt to have me banned at every enforcement thread only demonstrates just how much you are willing to distort what took place. I honestly do not know why you are allowed to comment here, your repeated bad faith attempts at having me banned on plainly specious charges should have been enough to earn you a ban from commenting at AE. Regardless, your distortions here are simply untrue. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
WGF, I did not ''comment on Cptnono's vote'', technically or otherwise. I was responding, directly, to Kauffner, and then to GabrielF. Cptnono directly responded to me. Removing the interaction ban requires more than just your say so, that was imposed as an arbitration enforcement action and requires a consensus of admins to remove it. I strongly object to the notion that removing the ban is an acceptable way of enforcing it. The ban is not unenforceable, yall just need to actually try to enforce it. And honestly, given your initial reply to the past request for enforcment on a much more closely related set of edits as being ''contrived and vexatious'', I question why you now think that it is plausible that a completely unrelated reply is a violation of that same ban. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:What pray tell has been the issue with my ''rhetoric'' on this page? Regarding the substance of your comment, I dont deny that the comment I made was ''under'' Cptnono's vote. I dont see how that changes that my comment was not a reply to Cptnono, or even about what Cptnono based his vote on. I replied to an unrelated point made by a different editor. In a discussion that I had already been a part of, which had spilled over from another page that I have also been involved in. A different user made a claim that a certain name was not preferred by a group of people. I pointed out to him that the very source that user had brought explicitly gave that name as a preferred name by that group of people. That had nothing to do with Cptnono, and nothing to do with his vote. I honestly dont see how, given the earlier request in which Cptnono reverted the exact edit I made with others reverting in between being judged as not a violation, and with you saying it was clearly not so to the point of suggesting I be banned for even raising the issue, you can claim that this is possibly a violation. I really do not understand how you can come to those two conclusions. Please read the comments. Tell me how they possibly relate to Cptnono in any way. And then read what Cptnono himself wrote here of a different situation: ''It has actually happened before where a "poll" was opened regarding an article on my watch list and I waited until someone else responded so I did not violate my topic ban.'' So Cptnono is of the opinion that if he waits until somebody else responds it is all right to then respond without it being a violation of an interaction ban. Here we have several responses, to the point that what was discussed had nothing to do with any comment by Cptnono. But yet somehow this becomes a violation. Please explain how you reconcile the past judgment of no violation for reverting the exact same edit but you are now of the opinion that commenting on a different issue is.<p>Yes, a consensus at AE can overturn the interaction ban, or AGK himself can. You, however, cannot do that simply because you think interaction bans are bad. This ban was imposed due to repeated personal attacks and unfounded accusations, directed solely in one direction. It was imposed for a reason, and despite you thinking little of the idea of such bans, I have found it refreshing to be free from such ''interactions'' for the last months. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 01:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:You have not said what is wrong with my ''rhetoric'', you have only said that there is a problem. ''What pray tell'' is neither hostile nor uncivil. If you want to say that my ''rhetoric'' is a problem, say what it is. Just saying it is a problem doesnt mean anything. And what you wrote was ''I'm of a mind to lift the interaction ban as unenforceable'', not that you would be seeing other opinions or see if there was a consensus, but that you yourself would do so because you yourself thinks what is easily enforceable is ''unenforceable''. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
The ban is over at this point, might as well consider this moot. In the hopes that the behavior that caused the ban to be requested and placed to begin with is not repeated, Id ask that you consider this request withdrawn. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 06:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
;Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
===Discussion concerning Cptnono=== | |||
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=== |
===Discussion concerning BabbleOnto=== | ||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
Nableezy made a response to my comment. He inserted a comment under a level heading I made. Instead of running to AE I pointed it out there. I don;t mind a topic ban. I even asked for one a few months ago. But when an editor under a topic ban makes a direct response to a comment he is in violation. If Nableezy is not topic banned for blatantly being in violation himself then the process is broken. Nableezy made a response to me and I answered. You guys can call it as you want. I will point out that Nableezy has spent the last 2 weeks calling for enforcement on me. Our interaction ban runs out in less than two weeks. Shenanigans. ] (]) 05:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:In response to WGF, I made a "'''Support''' comment/not-really-a-vote at the talk page. Nableeezy made two comments within that section. I have bent over backwards to follow the topic ban when I see his name in a discussion. It has actually happened before where a "poll" was opened regarding an article on my watch list and I waited until someone else responded so I did not violate my topic ban. Nableezy spent the first week of our topic ban disregarding it and I ended up taking a self-imposed few week break from the topic area. And then he opened up an AE just a week or so ago just before the interaction ban is set to expire. If he says "I did not realize I was commenting in a part of the discussion under your name" I won't call him a liar. But he hasn't said that and I believe that he is seeing the end of the topic ban coming up in a week and taking a shot at extending it. My comment was not that malicious and disruption was pretty minimal until it came here (again).] (]) 07:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:For clarification: by "section" I mean "level heading". The comment was a comment within a "vote/whatever" I made. I saw that as a violation of the interaction ban. Me pointing it out was a violation on my part but I thought at the time that pointing it out was within reason. It was bad judgement on my part but I thought (incorrectly) that it would be acceptable under the circumstances. Maybe I should have just filed a request for clarification. My thought process was that that would have been even more disruptive and was trying to not be a jerk about it. ] (]) 07:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by BabbleOnto==== | |||
::I am surprised to see that this is still going open. I did make a blatant violation of my topic ban. I still feel that Nableezy was in violation and that is why I made the comment. I thought he was intentionally just saying "screw it" (he actually made a comment on my talk page ages ago saying that we should mutually ignore a topic ban). At one time I could have made an argument for Nableezy repeatedly violating this topic ban. I know this sound terrible but I actually saved diffs in a document for the first month of it. I deleted it awhile ago since the topic ban made me realize that just trying to stick it to the other guy is not the way to go. It really doesn't matter now (unless I do get an indef) since the topic ban is set to expire. I'm not filing anymore requests at AE against Nableezy even if we are not interaction banned since I am so sick and tired of bickering over silly stuff (who goes to half these articles about places in the middle of nowhere anyways). | |||
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint . They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on and for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the . | |||
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing. | |||
::So @Devilsadvocate: You don't know what is and has been on my watchlist for years and why they have been there. You don't know what media I read and decide to look into more on Misplaced Pages. You need to spend less time assuming the worst and trying to poke holes in everyone's comments. It is not healthy here and I assume you do not need a lecture on how that will end up for you off of Misplaced Pages if you act this way at work or school or with your friends and family. @WGF: The topic ban is about to expire. I have full confidence I can not violate my topic ban over the next several days. The real test will be how we handle it when the ban is lifted (if its expiration is a possibility at this point) ] (]) 05:41, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Hi Cailil. I actually do edit in other areas just as frequently. I also do not have a history of topic bans here. I have some civility based blocks. I still don't think the single comment (although I misjudged its disruptiveness) would justify an indef. I don't even understand how I could return from it since I do edit in other topic areas already. ] (]) 20:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Also, Cailil, please do not lump me in with all of the activity below (not sure if that was your intent or not) unless we are doing ARBPIA3. I want nothing to do with those other discussions and won;t be jumping into the fray in 24hrs when my interaction ban expires. ] (]) 20:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've , I've that were clarified to be wrong, I've , at times and work together. And when those editors , I didn't provoke any further. | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Cptnono==== | |||
=====Comment by Biosketch===== | |||
I now address the specific edits in the complaint: | |||
This is Cptnono's comment: | |||
::I forgot to mention that as someone who is not an idiot I know that this conversation will be filled with filibustering and what can only be considered violations of interaction bans. I won't breach it myself but you guys can keep it up. | |||
Where is there any indication that he's "replying to a comment made by" ''you'', "directly referencing" ''you'', or accusing ''you'' of filibustering? Other than the unfortunate ''placement'' of the comment – in a discussion where Cptnono was already involved, it needs to be stressed – there's nothing here necessarily indicating that Cptnono was addressing Nableezy at all.—] (]) 14:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:WGFinley, you're proposing to indef Cptnono because he placed his comment after Nableezy's, even though his comment had apparently nothing to do with Nableezy. Am I understanding right? | |||
:(As an aside, it should be made standard practice that uninvolved Admins wait for the defendants in these cases to make their statement before rushing to reach conclusions.)—] (]) 15:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::Nableezy, I don't know who else he was referencing. Anyway, that doesn't seem to be what WGFinley took into consideration in proposing his indefinite topic ban. If he would at least have offered Cptnono the opportunity to explain this incident, he'd be in a better position to evaluate whether or not the interaction ban was breached. But he's proposing to indefinitely topic ban Cptnono because he commented after you, apprently regardless of the ''content'' of his comment. That just makes no sense at all.—] (]) 15:28, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Nableezy, I appreciate that you're consistent with respect to WGFinley's conduct here. Still, when I said I don't know to whom Cptnono was addressing his remarks, that was an honest observation. If pressed to give an answer, I'd have to say he was ''talking to no one in particular''. People do that when they're frustrated, or when they've been imbibing, and it's not out of the question that Cptnono was one of those two things at the time and making a comment to the audience generally. The point is, it should be Cptnono's privilege to reply here and speak his peace before conclusions are drawn.—] (]) 16:21, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I'd just like to point out that Cptnono said in his comment above my section here, "You guys can call it as you want." Who was he talking to? Was he addressing the remark to anyone in particular? No – it was a comment directed at all of us generally. By the same token, his remark at ] was also meant as a general observation directed at no one in particular.—] (]) 16:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:WGFinley, under the circumstances, your close proposal seems the most sensible suggestion.—] (]) 15:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates. | |||
=====Comment by MichaelNetzer===== | |||
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?" | |||
Just like the previous complaint that wasn't considered a violation of the interaction ban, this one cannot be either. Cptnono didn't direct his words at Nableezy or anyone specific. He had already commented earlier and wanted to add an afterthought. The placement is unfortunate but doesn't suggest an interaction. Nableezy was also advised, btw, about excessive appearances here, which evidently hasn't been heeded. Cptnono should be heard before suggestions for such a severe sanction are made. --] (]) | |||
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of , perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too. | |||
:'''@WGF, AGK''' and other administrators considering this request: | |||
:#In light of Cptnono's explanation, it seems that, at least technically, Nableezy did initiate the interaction by replying under a level heading that Cptono started, thus giving rise to Cptnono's concern for a violation of iBan by Nableezy. Though Nableezy made no specific reference to Cptnono, the technical condition remains for the concern. | |||
:#As he states, Cptnono did not rush to file a complaint against Nableezy. This demonstrates a preferred discretion by all WP guidelines concerning complaints brought before AE admins. | |||
:#Cptnono instead replied in the same level thread that he himself started and made a comment about it, directed to the winds and not to anyone specific, especially not to Nableezy. The same technical condition that Nableezy violated is also prevalent in Cptnono's remark, being in the same level thread he started, under Nableezy's comment. | |||
:#Nableezy then rushed to file this complaint, showing none of the preferred discretionary behavior that Cptnono displayed, and disregarding previous advice given him about excessive appearances at AE. | |||
:#Administrators rushed to condemn Cptnono's technical violation before Cptnono even explained his action. | |||
:#It now appears that Nableezy clearly violated a similar technical placement of his comments under the level heading that Cptnono started. Revealing Nableezy's discretionary behavior as considerably more objectionable in that he is the one who rushed to file a complaint against Cptnono, while the latter showed more restraint and consideration. | |||
:In light of Cptono's explanation, it would seem this complaint more represents a ] due to Nableezy's disregard for advice about excessive complaints, and rushing to file one against an editor who showed restraint, even though they both violated the same technicality of comment placement. | |||
:#Whatever sanctions are meted out against Cptnono, should be meted out in greater measure against Nableezy, based on his level of violations and disregard for advice given repeatedly in AE decisions. | |||
:#Even if one can say that Cptnono was also given advice to stay away from Nableezy, then we have a more equal balance of violations between the two editors, necessitating the same sanction be applied to both. | |||
:Concerns voiced here repeatedly about the forgiving attitude of AE admins towards Nableezy, by many editors in the I-P space, reveal a severe leniency towards him that is not afforded to editors he complains about or who complain about him. | |||
:#Though this may not have been WGF and AGK's intent, in light of Cptnono's explanation, it seems necessary to either consider dismissing this complaint or alternately at least meting out equal sanctions against both editors, if not an even stricter one against Nableezy. | |||
:#Continued special favor for Nableezy and the hard hand applied to editors he complains about or complain about him, based on what at least one administrator voiced as favoring him because he is an effective spokesman for a cause, while offering no such lenience to effective spokesmen for a cause from the other side, will become a source of growing agitation in the I-P and AE spaces. | |||
:Please take these facts into consideration and at least show you are considering the appearance of severe bias in these cases. | |||
:--] (]) 05:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here. | |||
'''@Nableezy:''' Boggles the mind? What boggles the mind is that your previous complaint against Cptnono relies on the same distance between your edits and Cptnono's as the distance between your comment and his level heading in the same comment thread in this complaint. Yet you are the one rushing to file complaints when Cptnono was far more considerate and forgiving about it. Your refusal to become more collaborative by rushing to demand sanctions against editors you are in conflict with, while attempting to blur the facts with convoluted reasoning, is what truly boggles the mind around here. --] (]) 06:24, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that '''I'm''' not working with others. ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''@Nableezy:''' As someone who must endure your in the I-P space, and has bent over backwards to persuade you to become more collaborative instead of rushing to file complaints against editors here - if you have a complaint against my participation in these discussions ''("try not distorting the events at every discussion that has nothing to do with you.")'', then either file a complaint about me and substantiate what you accuse me of, or please desist from making baseless inflammatory comments about me. --] (]) 08:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*:Edited. ] (]) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Sorry, the sub-header for this section says that only admins can edit this section, I didn't realize I was allowed to reply here. | |||
*:Yes, I will. I intend on taking an extended break from wikipedia, as well. ] (]) 17:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC) <small> Moved from uninvolved admin section; you can answer questions, make comments, discuss, but all your input needs to be in your own section. ] (]) 17:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
**::{{TQ|an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.}} | |||
**:: What I meant was that I'm willing to respect the consensus and not make any further edits or argue any more contrary to what the consensus decided. It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to ''personally agree'' with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, then there's nothing I can do. I still do disagree with the consensus's result. Nonetheless, I'm not going to edit or argue further, I'll respect it as a legitimate. | |||
***::: Re:{{tq|no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on.}} | |||
'''@WGFinley: Please.''' Cptnono qualified his statement by specifying what he meant by "response to his comment":<br /> | |||
***::: Then I accept the consensus. I'm not going to argue in those discussions any further, though I still personally disagree, I understand a consensus has been reached which is other than my opinion. Nor will I edit disruptively or against the consensus. I appreciate the admin who noted I largely kept my disagreement in the talk pages, not editing the articles themselves. I plan on staying away from the topic in general for quite a while. | |||
:''"Nableezy made a response to my comment. '''He inserted a comment under a level heading I made.'''"'' | |||
The diffs, and appear under Cptnono's vote (]) Cptnono's vote itself is not considered a violation of the ban, but it did develop into a thread that Nableezy participated in with comments (not voting) first, before Cptnono's response. Granted, Nableezy might not have paid enough attention that he was commenting in a discussion about Cptnono's vote. This gave rise to Cptnono's concern for an iBan violation by Nableezy, that he commented on in the diff Nableezy used as the basis for this complaint. | |||
====Statement by ProcrastinatingReader==== | |||
Granted, that neither one of the two directed remarks towards the other or interacted with each other. And granted that both of them suffer the same technicality of being within the same thread. And also granted that Cptnono's comment is directly under Nableezy's, it is still true that he did not direct his comment to Nableezy and this was his own voting thread that Nableezy first participated in. Cptnono did not participate in any other discussions there that would infer a violation of the iBan with Nableezy. | |||
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources. | |||
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ''ad nauseam''. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ] (]) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I do not personally see a violation of the ban in either case, but there is a shadow of suspicion that Nableezy first violated it by not paying attention that he was commenting on Cptnono's vote. This is a similar incident that Nableezy brought previously against Cptnono, where he was warned to be more careful. At best, Nableezy must now be also warned to be more careful and the complaint dismissed, as in the previous complaint. | |||
====Statement by Newimpartial==== | |||
However, in light of both parties ostensibly being suspected of a violation, Cptnono DID NOT rush to file a complaint. The editor who rushed to file a complaint is Nableezy, who can himself be construed to have violated the ban in the same way Cptnono could. And Nableezy adds salt to a wound he inflicts himself by claiming that Cptnono directed his statements to him, when they were clearly directed to the winds in a sort of forgiving frustration at Nableezy's participation in a thread about his own vote. | |||
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, . | |||
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I {{tq|misquoted the article}}. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends . Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of ] with pure ]. | |||
If Cptnono's comment is to considered a violation of the iBan, then Nableezy's must be also seen as such. Even more so because it was Cptnono's voting thread in which the comments were made. | |||
2. On this they say, now, that {{tq|The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.}} This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and ]. | |||
The violation which results in a severe behavior that disturbs the balance of their actions is that Nableezy is the one who rushed to file the complaint while Cptnono was more considerate and forgiving. --] (]) 08:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, {{tq|You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say}} and {{tq|You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said}} - all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to {{tq|a basic failure in reading comprehension}} '''''two hours later'''''. This seems like a time travel paradox. | |||
=====Comment by BorisG===== | |||
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I {{tq|said a material lie}}, and that I {{tq|lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying}} and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But ] again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do. | |||
Well, I don't know if Cptnono's conduct amounts to a breach of IBan, but an indef is so preposterous that even filing party thinks it is too harsh. I would advice Cptnono to stay miles away from discussions where Nableezy is involved. - ] (]) 16:50, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. ] (]) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Nishidani===== | |||
Almost certainly a breach, but I concur with Boris that an indef. is way too strong. ] (]) 17:16, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
==== |
====Statement by Objective3000==== | ||
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: {{TQ|Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....}} ] currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. ] (]) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I in the previous request regarding Cptnono that his explanation for why he was not following Nableezy's edits did not seem satisfactory. Here I noticed something similarly suspicious about his actions. He dated the offending comment provided above, but did not sign it. I cannot think of how that could be done accidentally. Seems more like Cptnono did not want people to realize it was his comment. Any claim that he was not referring to Nableezy seems to be a stretch as well. Nableezy was commenting on a threaded discussion started from Cptnono's vote, however Nableezy is clearly responding to another editor. What it does indicate is that Cptnono's comment about "what can only be considered violations of interaction bans" was a reference to these comments by Nableezy.--] (]) 17:28, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:@], this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. ] (]) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:As far as sanctions, might I make a suggestion? Seems Cptnono has only ever been blocked for three days. Perhaps a longer block with a topic-ban for several months would be appropriate.--] (]) 17:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::Note: ] was just TBanned from the topic of COVID-19 and indef blocked until the accusations of off-wiki coordination made by them at ANI are retracted. Those accusations are like their suggestion made in their statement in this filing. ] (]) 12:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Ill reply here on the technical point. I am quite certain that the innocent explanation for the timestamp but no sig is the correct one. Depending on the number of tildes you input, you may get just the username (3 tildes), the username and timestamp (4 tildes), or just the timestamp (5 tildes). <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:04, 20 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
::Perhaps, but it does seem a tad too convenient to me that he would make such a mistake at the exact time when a comment being attributed to him would be a problem.--] (]) 18:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::DA, your view is consistent with your interest in conspiracy theories. Sorry for friendly trolling. - ] (]) 23:23, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::::Actually, I just think Cptnono was probably not being completely honest about his actions in the previous case (he made a few erroneous statements about why he was editing certain articles Nableezy was editing) and that makes me question whether this was a "mistake" or a deliberate omission.--] (]) 01:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
@WG Cptnono has never received a topic ban at all. Going for an indef is not even something Nableezy has expressed support for so it seems that something shorter would be better. A long-term extension to the interaction ban would certainly seem to be necessary (I do not think it is a coincidence that these incidents have popped up in the last month of the interaction ban), a months-long topic ban, and possibly a block for a week or two. I agree that the editor is clearly in need of a firmer response, but that does not mean you have to go for the jugular right out of the gates.--] (]) 18:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:I would suggest that if you go through with an indefinite topic ban that you also impose a longer-term interaction ban.--] (]) 01:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I looked through two years of Cptnono's edit history and once more found no indication whatsoever that he contributed to the article in this case until after Nableezy contributed to it. This is just like the previous case where Cptnono gave an erroneous justification for his sudden appearance at articles Nableezy had recently edited.--] (]) 16:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by JoelleJay==== | |||
@WG I understand your distaste for more ambiguous accusations of interaction ban violations, but there are many cases where an action is blatant and interaction bans serve a useful purpose in avoiding the punitive impression other sanctions tend to create as it does not stop anyone from editing the topic altogether. Those ambiguous cases seem to focus on whether one user is attempting to bait the other editor into violating an interaction ban without technically violating it as well. Nableezy's edit does not appear to be a technical violation, but I also think there was no intent to violate its spirit. Cptnono does not exactly have a distinctive signature and there were several comments by other editors between Cptnono's vote and Nableezy's response to Kauffner. It seems probable that Nableezy did not even notice. Even if he had, the comment does not appear to be in any way directed at or commenting on Cptnono. The comment could have easily been responding to a stand-alone statement by Kauffner without any change to Kauffner's comment or Nableezy's. Placement is the only issue there and I do not think that alone is a basis for claiming a violation. | |||
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like ] doesn't disrupt things even more? ] (]) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by IntrepidContributor==== | |||
Once more I also think it is disconcerting that Cptnono was yet again only showing up at an article after Nableezy made a recent edit there. If he is following Nableezy to these articles and making edits in opposition to him then that is not nearly as ambiguous.--] (]) 04:36, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki (). | |||
=====Comment by Malik Shabazz===== | |||
I agree with others that an indefinite topic ban is too harsh in this instance. Perhaps a year-long ban with an opportunity to appeal in six months? — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 19:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
One need only cross-reference names from , checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first. | |||
=====Plot Spoiler===== | |||
Indefinite ban... year ban...? Anything even more than a month seems pretty ridiculous for a weak violation of an interaction ban. This isn't a more pressing content or civility issue. ] (]) 19:50, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes. | |||
=====AgadaUrbanit===== | |||
So we're talking about possible ] violation between two editors. | |||
# There is a ] initiated by 3d party. Both editors commented, casting !votes, presenting opposing views. So far so good. Not ideal though, considering their iban. | |||
# Then editor X finds him/herself commenting within of editor Y with whom she/he has an interaction ban, see and . | |||
Is X commenting on the Y !vote above? Do '''γ'''&'''δ''' constitute comments of editor X on editor Y anywhere on Misplaced Pages, whether directly or indirectly? ] (]) 00:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
: To keep this readable I'll comment here if you don't mind, I think it's a great question. I think it points out one of the shortcomings of interaction bans. I can see both sides of the argument on this one. They're just voting so it shouldn't matter, right? But what if Y came to vote just because X did? How can you prove that? That's where interaction bans make little sense and are downright silly, a possible ] or, more precisely, a case of ]. I'm not a fan of them but they've been accepted here as a means of dispute resolution--] (]) 00:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
'''In arvo ] verum''': ''The purpose of an interaction ban is to stop a conflict between two or more editors that cannot be otherwise resolved from getting out of hand and disrupting the work of others.'' Would X and Y agree with removal of their mutual iban? ] (]) 01:05, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:'''@ Closing admin''': at this stage I'd say ''']'''. Say what? We tried iban, it did not work out as expected. This appears to be a personal conflict and it should stop. Both editors were provided second chances and now they could try to contribute more constructively in other topics of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 16:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Gatoclass===== | |||
=== Statement by TarnishedPath === | |||
It seems Cptnono concluded that since Nableezy had commented in a thread Cptnono started, then Nableezy was violating the spirit if not the letter of their mutual IBAN, which justified Cptnono in making a response. I don't believe Nableezy's comments constituted any sort of breach, and I don't think Cptnono's reasoning was sound in that regard, but in the circumstances I suppose Cptnono might be extended a degree of AGF. Cptnono is undisciplined and at times somewhat abrasive but in my admittedly limited experience, he has appeared to be at least capable of editing collaboratively in the topic area, which is more than I can say for a number of other contributors there. I am therefore inclined to agree with those above who have argued that an indefinite topic ban would be somewhat undue at this point. I would suggest an extension of the IBAN with Nableezy for another six months, assuming Nableezy assents, together perhaps with a topic ban of short duration. ] (]) 15:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
Please see ] where BabbleOnto edited ] restoring previously reverted content and ] using a shit source after they'd been told by multiple other editors in discussions ] and ] that the source was shit. Notably in the edit summary they wrote "{{tq|Read discussion page. Manual revert. No serious challenge has been made to these changes. Methinks an admin needs to get involved...}}" despite them being in a ] situation. If a clue is not gotten by the editor fast I'd suggest TBANs from both COVID and AP2 is warranted in order to cease their disruption. '']''<sup>]</sup> 04:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Noting the editor's continued behaviour at ]. Refer to ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 01:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Cptnono=== | |||
::and again at ] '']''<sup>]</sup> 03:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
Pretty blatant to me, Cptnono's comment is immediately under Nableezy's. I think it's time for an indefinite TBAN for Cptnono, who was just chided not to do this. Normally I would act on this right away but since I'm proposing indefinite I will let others chime in. --] (]) 15:08, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by berchanhimez=== | |||
My suggestion for indefinite is based on facts. This is the 2nd interaction ban that Cptnono has had with Nableezy, the first one was lifted and then put back into place 6 months later. We have a fresh AE report that's not even a couple weeks old with clear instruction to avoid areas where Nableezy is editing and not even days after getting that warning Cptnono goes right back and does exactly that. The time consumed on AE and the disruptions caused in this article space are of detriment to the project and I think it is time to start giving long term TBANs for those who have previously been sanctioned multiple times. --] (]) 18:04, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
This user was given no less than 4 chances on the talk page to stop talking about bans/other editors and start talking about the content. They have continued crying about how they're scared of getting banned... yet they continue blabbing about other editors getting banned for their bad behavior ]. ''At a minimum'' a partial block from the talk page(s) in question is warranted, and it would be beneficial for a topic ban from the origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 03:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==== Statement by Shibbolethink ==== | |||
* I support the topic ban being indefinite, not long-term. We cannot afford to infinitely tolerate problematic users. It was suggested above that we levy a one-year topic ban with no option to appeal before six months; I dislike such a configuration, first because, before anything, we must allow the user to appeal the ban immediately after it begins - in case we were mistaken (which can always happen) or overlooked important information (which is also possible). Moreover, I dislike the idea that we give long-term problematic contributors a "harsh sentence" then allow them to return; the aim is to protect the integrity of our articles. For that reason, I prefer that the subject be permanently excluded from the topic in question, and allowed to return ''only'' when they have demonstrated an ability to contribute constructively. With that thinking, an indefinite (not year-long or otherwise long-term) ban is the only solution. I regret that it comes to this, but Cptnono is clearly incapable of learning our lesson. ] </nowiki>]] 23:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I am heavily involved in this overall dispute as someone who has gone back and forth with BabbleOnto. I wanted to add that, in general, my feeling from interacting with this user is that they ''could'' be a good contributor to this site, and absolutely ''could'' follow the PAGs. They have shown an ability to be courteous . I think the issue is that in FRINGE and other contentious areas like COVID-19 origins, they have shown a tendancy to become "hot-headed" when tensions rise, and to reference an us vs them mentality (and numerous examples from others above). It seems they have also been egged-on, and made more combative from other PROFRINGE users (and probably some anti-FRINGE users as well who do admittedly ]) in that topic space (e.g. ) | |||
*:I agree, there's a fundamental misunderstanding that indefinite means infinite, it doesn't. That's exactly where I'm coming from, no term with the person able to appeal at a later unspecified date. --] (]) 00:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
We are told often to use narrowest possible restriction to protect the project. In this case, '''I think that would be a COVID-19 origins TBAN''', where most of the disruption has been. The user states they have learned what to do when consensus is against them. If they fail to show that lesson in AP2 articles more than just the 10 or so edits they've made in those articles, an AP2 TBAN would be appropriate at that time (]). Just my 2 cents.— ] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 22:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Support indefinite topic ban per AGK (as in, 'a ban or no definite duration', rather than 'a long-term restriction'). This can be removed when Cptnono shows the ability to be a constructive and collaborative contributer elsewhere in the 'pedia. When they relearn the tools of collegial editing then this can be reconsidered--] <sup>]</sup> 17:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
==== |
====Statement by (username)==== | ||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
Cptnono didn't provide any diffs regarding Nableezy "making a response" to him, I've asked him for some diffs on his talk page as I'm not seeing that in the article history at all. Nableezy has a few edits to the page going back more than a year and Cptnono only made two edits, both were . --] (]) 06:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning BabbleOnto=== | |||
I've reviewed this and I understand the points being made now. I think this is a great illustration of the silliness of interaction bans and how they just don't work. Nableezy voted, with a comment, then Cptnono voted, with a comment, then a lot of discussion started with Nableezy making multiple comments on discussion under Cptnono's vote. As far as the conversations here, they are pretty much emblematic of the problems in this topic space and AE. I really wish people could tone it down. | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
Now as for what to do with this mess: technically Nableezy was there first but as I said before I don't think that should matter if there is no direct interaction. Technically Nableezy commented on Cptnono's vote but it wasn't directed at Cptnono's comment just under it. However, were I Cptnono I could construe a comment on my vote as interacting. But still Cptnono pretty much directly took it on with the diff Nableezy originally reported. I'm of a mind to lift the interaction ban as unenforceable, with warnings to both further disruption will lead to TBANs, really only way I can see making any sense of this. --] (]) 15:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*<!-- | |||
--> | |||
@Nableezy Your comment is in discussion '''under his vote''' how can you possibly deny that? Thus if someone speaks up in support or opposition to his vote and then '''you''' speak up against that you are, vicariously, speaking in support or opposing his vote. '''But for''' the fact Cptnono made his vote and comment there's no discussion there for you to comment on, therefore you clearly commented on his vote. | |||
*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly {{tq|BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible}}, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at ] exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes ]. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of ]. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Also, if there's a consensus here at AE to remove the interaction ban, especially since it was AGK who made the ban, it can be removed. I also recall you were requested to tone down your rhetoric on this page, that clearly hasn't happened. --] (]) 23:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*::{{u|Valereee}} in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. {{u|BabbleOnto}}, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction. | |||
:Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you. | |||
@Nableezy "What pray tell has been the issue with my rhetoric on this page?" - you do it in the same sentence you ask what you're doing wrong! Also, I've never indicated I was taking immediate individual action here, in fact my very first comment was saying I wanted other input, don't know how you're making the leap to me unilaterally removing AGK's IBAN, I suggested it and that was all. --] (]) 15:47, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:<small>As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors.</small> ] (]) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Move For Close==== | |||
{{collapse top|title=Tangential}} | |||
::@], hm, yes, and ] also has 37 archives, and even with archiving at 21 days, 20 sections. Do you think an ECR is something that talk page needs? That's not part of the authorized restrictions an individual admin can place...hm, and I'm not sure of the policy w/re most efficiently getting that done and wasting the fewest people's time. @]? ] (]) 21:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I would object to ECPing the talk page. COVID-19 ], though this specific ''article'' is protected. The purpose of protecting the page (in this case) is to push newer users to the talk page, where they can discuss changes they want made (such as by edit requests) and contribute towards consensus-building while not edit warring. Protecting talk pages is truly, ''truly'' a last resort. Ordinary good faith people would be entirely shut out and silenced—we'd not even get edit requests—and I frankly don't see anything near the level of disruption/LTA abuse that would justify jumping straight to ]. — ] <sub>]</sub> 01:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::@], not ECP. ECR: non-EC are restricted from anything but making edit requests. ] (]) 14:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I see. In any case, ECR is the sort of remedy that should be reserved for more or less when all else fails—it’s still ''super'' restrictive. If new users/inexperienced users are trying to contribute towards consensus-building on the talk page (or even if they’re doing ordinary confused new editor things), and aren’t edit warring, I don’t think we’d actually be ] by enforcing ECR. | |||
:::::Suppose someone in good-faith sees “anyone can edit”, and they want to edit something topical. But then they see that the page that they want to edit is protected. They read the explanation that appears after clicking the “view source” tab. They then read that they can discuss this page with others, click on the first blue link, and then make a section using the “add topic” button in order to start a discussion. | |||
:::::“OK”, the newbie thinks, “maybe I will find someone else who agrees with me, or I’ll at least get some answer as to why the article is this way”. They leave their computer and come back in an hour. They then discover that their question has been removed by some random editor with edit summary “] violation, user not ]; malformed edit request” and find a contentious topics notice on their own user talk page, all because they don’t make a properly formatted edit request (i.e. “please change X to Y”). Or maybe they wont navigate the talk page history and they’ll angrily post that their earlier comment was deleted. Or maybe they just won’t come back. To top it off, nothing at any point in this process was obvious to them that such a requirement existed—there is no edit notice that says so, and so they couldn’t know. | |||
:::::] is ]y. It dissuades new voices from joining conversations, and it makes it somewhat hostile to true newbies. In particular, it dissuades people who, for example: | |||
:::::#Are Not hardcore/insane enough to deal with intense wiki-bureaucracy; | |||
:::::#Are unable to cope with handling unfamiliar wikitext markup when making edit requests for anything that is not a trivial word change, or who have abstract changes in mind more than concrete ones; | |||
:::::#Do not want to spend an hour of their time to figure out how to say the magic words to summon another editor to fix a typo. | |||
:::::The chief way that ECR works is by making LTAs/sockmasters have to put on a lot of effort or make a lot of edits. This raises the (time) cost of socking, and it has the benefit of possibly exposing tells along the way. But that also means that we’re imposing the same thing on good-faith newbies. | |||
:::::When deciding whether or not to impose ECR, we have to balance that it is extremely BITEy to good-faith newbies against its ability to prevent disruption. There are times where we are basically left to throw our hands up because of LTA/sockmaster abuse, and conclude that the tradeoff is worth it; the ArbCom has done this for certain contentious topics. But, the ArbCom had the wisdom to not enable ECR as a page sanction across all contentious topic areas—there is a very real tradeoff that needs to be really carefully considered. And I don’t the tradeoff leans towards embracing ECR ''here''. — <span style="background: linear-gradient(#990000,#660000)">] <sub>]</sub></span> 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I'm don't think we need to have this discussion here and now, but I don't disagree it's bitey and needs to be used only where necessary. I was just asking the question of someone who is working at that article: is this an article talk where it's necessary? ] (]) 17:45, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{collapse bottom}} | |||
*{{u|BabbleOnto}}, are you planning to answer my questions above? Do you think you're able/willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you? Are you able/willing to stop insisting everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers? ] (]) 13:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
This interaction ban expires in a few days, I don't see the need of going through a process to lift it. TBAN, after looking at all the extenuating circumstances, doesn't seem appropriate here for either side, clearly there is honest disagreement as to who interacted first and I think both sides have a valid argument that the other started it. Thus I'm disinclined to extend it as Gatoclass presented. I think Gato's suggestion has merit and seeks to find middle ground but, after a couple of weeks of calls needing to be made on murky actions regarding what is an IBAN violation I can't see extending something that is inadequate. | |||
*:BabbleOnto's response understanding this as a suggestion to take a break from Misplaced Pages as a whole isn't quite what I was hoping to see. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around. | |||
*:@], I'd support a tban, but is AP2 enough? It seems like COVID and fringe science need to be included? ] (]) 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::AP2 + COVID? I see the same behavior at the Brian Thompson article and Havana Syndrome, so COVID alone doesn't seem adequate. Oddly, the intersection of "medicine and politics" would appear to cover all affected topics but maybe that's too bespoke? <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 17:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:@], re:{{xt|It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it,}} no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on. ] (]) 23:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I think {{u|BabbleOnto}} is actually getting the right idea. You do not have to ''agree'' with consensus. There are some consensus positions here I don't agree with, and some I think are rather silly. But, until and unless they change, I respect and abide by them all the same. If I try to challenge them, and it becomes clear that such a challenge was unsuccessful, there comes a time to just shrug, realize you can't win 'em all, and ]. Since they seem to have gotten that point, I think maybe see how things go, and if they return to disruption, I think they're quite clear on what the results of that will be. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 14:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove ''and'' frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing ''during this case''...I dunno. ] (]) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Generally I'm with you. Let people show they've dealt with the issue. Reblocking is pretty easy in most cases. But sealioning...well, it's such a difficult issue to prove/assess, and there are so many people doing it who don't even have the self-awareness to fix the problem that I kind of feel like it needs a tougher approach than I'd normally argue for. Not a hill I'm going to die on, but if the editor is back here or at ANI for the same issue, I am going to be extremely unhappy with them. | |||
*:::@], do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as ], and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages? ] (]) 20:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==Marlarkey== | |||
So I would suggest closing this with no action other than a plea to both parties to cool it as in the next few days we will see if previous sanctions have done any good or if TBANs are next up for consideration. --] (]) 15:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
{{hat|Marlarkey p-blocked from ] and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
:Disagree. Given the repeated violation (by many parties) of restrictions I see no reason to give anyone a free pass here. Indefinite topic bans should not be seen as a nuclear option - and Cptnono should not be an exception. A number of the recurring problems in articles covered by these rulings can and should be resolved by AE restricting the behaviour of accounts ''until they learn to collaborate''. Using increasing blocks or short term bans does not help accounts who have a history of serial violation learn to edit constructively. Therefore if indeed certain accounts (with a history of restriction violation etc) are "''good editors but for one poisonous interaction, or a hot-button mindset, in one toic area''" let them show us by editting well elsewhere. Given the series of report from this area in the last few days this is the ony way forward I can see--] <sup>]</sup> 17:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Marlarkey}}<p>{{ds/log|Marlarkey}}</p> | |||
==Talknic== | |||
{{hat|1=] is banned from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed across all namespaces for six months. ] (]) 16:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC) }} | |||
===Request concerning Talknic=== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : ] (]) 19:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Talknic}} | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | <!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | ||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: | ;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | ||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | <!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | ||
] and ] | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. --> | <!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | ||
# Restores removed label in violation of ] | |||
# Less than 24 hours later removes sentence from lead because he doesn't like consensus wording. I assume this is a revert since he was editing the same sentence , concurrently with the previous diff. | |||
'''''' | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) : | |||
# - Mainspace PIA edit prior to EC status. | |||
<!-- Many arbitration remedies require a prior warning before sanctions may be imposed. Link to the warning here. --> | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request and acknowledgement of aforementioned edit. | |||
#Notified of case . | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
#Blocked for 1RR on the same article . | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Accused another editor of vandalism. | |||
#Received a 3 month topic ban a couple of weeks later. for his talk page conduct, which unfortunately hasn't improved. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. Says, "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration." | |||
#Blocked for 1RR on the same article | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. Accused editor of "vandalism" in edit summary. | |||
'''''' | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
This editor suffers from a severe case of IDHT and is very difficult to work with. He probably hits a good 7-8 of the 14 examples at ]. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request. | |||
# - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Not an edit request..."''Someone has reverted my removal of Israel - Hamas *AGAIN* so I've taken it out *AGAIN*.''" | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status. | |||
# - Self-revert of direct previous mainspace reversion that was prior to EC status. | |||
# - Direct mainspace reversion prior to EC status...Made while this enforcement request was being typed up. This reversion by Marlarkey is of an edit with the direct edit summary of "Per ]". User is 100% disregarding CT requirements. | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : N/A. No previous blocks or topic bans. | |||
is a discussion where several editors agreed on the wording in the lead, and not a single editor supported talknic's argument. I suggest reading the two sections below that one for a typical example of the kind of talk page behavior that got him TBANed last time. he brings up the same issue again. And it comes up again. In all 3 cases, several quite experienced editors agreed on the wording. Talknic, seeing he's not convincing anyone just went ahead and removed the whole sentence. | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): at 15:29, 21 November 2024. | |||
@WGF, Ed: I wouldn't have brought the technical 1RR here if that was the only problem. Please read some of the talk page discussions I linked to above, or practically any section in the last 4-5 archives of ]. You'll see what I mean. ] (]) 05:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
Talnic's long and meandering reply here and the examples he links to are a very good illustration of the problems other people face when trying to work with this editor. Notice how many times he accuses others of violating[REDACTED] policy "by consensus". He is unable to get even a single editor to support either the changes he wants to make or his objections to changes others make. He does not understand policy properly and refuses to listen to anyone who tries to explain it to him. He is now back at the article throwing accusations around. ] (]) 10:12, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a ]-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. '''The ]''' (] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*One of the edits by Marlarkey listed above from 13 January 2025 has been by {{u|ScottishFinnishRadish}} for Marlarkey not being ECR logged. '''The ]''' (] 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:*{{ping|Marlarkey}} I want to ], so I wanted to let you know that ] is what we call "broadly constructed". If you read ], it says, "{{tq|These are the current arbitration remedies applicable to any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.}}" The edit you are attempting to me is ''related'' to the Arab-Israel conflict. The page itself does not have to be entirely about the war to be covered under the restrictions. Any edit that is at least, even slightly related to the conflict is covered under the restrictions. While the page is about declarations of war throughout history, the specific edit is related to whether the Israel-Hamas war was a declaration of war. That is obviously related to the conflict, given it specifically is in regard to the ]. That is why the edits were reverted and why this violation report was filed. Hopefully that makes sense. Also, just a quick side-note, accusing other editors of vandalism is ] and is not really how Misplaced Pages operates. You should always ]. '''The ]''' (] 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::*{{ping|Marlarkey}} We are all working together to create a better encyclopedia. No one is against you and we do wish for all to edit Misplaced Pages. The ArbCom restrictions require that you have (1) at least an account of 30 days old and (2) at least 500 edits, to be able to edit content anywhere on Misplaced Pages regarding the Israel-Hamas war. At the time of all the edits linked above, you did not have 500 edits on Misplaced Pages. You were roughly at 490. At the time of this, you now have over 500 edits, which means you could now edit content regarding the Israel-Hamas war. That said, this report was made because of the several edits you made prior to reaching the 500 edit requirement. | |||
:::Please understand this is for the edits that you made which were in clear violation of the policy, which requires you to have 500 edits prior to editing anything even remotely related to the conflict. This report was not that you are incorrect with your removal of the content. Not at all. This report is because you removed the content before you were allowed to (i.e. the 500-edit mark). Please understand we all are on the same-side here and no one is vandalizing anything. Once this is resolved, I would be more than happy to calmly discuss the content changes with you. I hope you can understand that this report is specifically because you made the changes before you were allowed to and not at all regarding the content in those changes. '''The ]''' (] 00:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request, and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. --> | |||
] | |||
*{{ping|Rosguill}} After my last reply, I realized I went 105 words over the 500-word limit. I would like to request that 105-word extension (so I do not have to reword or remove the last reply I made). I do not plan to reply again as I think everything I needed to say and link to has been said and linked to. '''The ]''' (] 00:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
===Discussion concerning talknic=== | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
====Statement by talknic==== | |||
===Discussion concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
<del>Preparing a reply: please allow response before taking action... thx </del>] (]) 01:18, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Marlarkey==== | |||
*1) ''"Restores removed label in violation of ]"'' - WP:LABEL was not the reason for GabrielF's revert. He did not say it was a 'controversial' point. //''"controversial" needs to be sourced - see WP:WEASEL'' // | |||
:So I gave a Secondary Source, for '''the word''' ''"controversial"'' , as required per ] and requested by GabrielF. No More Mr Nice Guy is mistaken | |||
{{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. {{userlinks|WeatherWriter}} has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. | |||
*2) ''"Less than 24 hours later removes sentence from lead because he doesn't like consensus wording"'' | |||
:This is another of No More Mr Nice Guy's . The reason for removal was clearly stated; violation of WP policies by consensus . My edit gave both victims of the conflict equal WEIGHT and equal POV | |||
My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." | |||
*3)I had previously asked for a verifiable source Shows the CN removed by NMMNG. Previously removed by , prior to which No More Mr Nice Guy reverted - reason in Talk The numerous editors giving consensus '''did not cite ANY sources what so ever''' . I cited Secondary Sources, which No More Mr Nice Guy falsely claimed were Primary sources. Again consensus was reached to violate WP:VERIFY | |||
1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article | |||
:After my taking WP:NPOV in respect to consequences of the war in the Lede to the Talk Page, consensus was again reached to violate WP:NPOV | |||
2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article | |||
3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. | |||
In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. | |||
*4) ''"Here he brings up the same issue again."'' The discussion which was in fact BEFORE the addition of material for the fate of the Jewish population, which pushed the Paragraph into contravening ] & ]. So again, No More Mr Nice Guy's accusation is false. | |||
: ''"And here it comes up again"'' . With the additional WP:NPOV material, it is not actually the same issue ''" In all 3 cases, several quite experienced editors agreed on the wording."'' They agreed to violate WP:NPOV WP:VERIFY & WP:WEIGHT, whilst falsely accused me of using Primary Sources when they were in fact Secondary Sources. ... ] (]) 13:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. | |||
=== Ooops I forgot something === | |||
*The source I provided for the statement reverted by GabrielF // "], the controversial Israeli historian..." // Is a statement for a book by a most "respected and controversial" Israeli historian. | |||
: | |||
<blockquote>''"Benny Morris is a world renowned author and professor of Middle East History at Ben-Gurion University. His pioneering revisionist work on the Palestinian exodus from Israel in the late 1940's has made him one of the most respected and '''controversial''' historians working there today."'' </blockquote> | |||
* Oh, Merry Xmas every one ... ] (]) 15:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict | |||
===Additional comments on premature Result (before my response) === | |||
As there have been premature results before my chance to respond I feel justified in addressing those results: | |||
*WGFinley - ''"The first diff is definitely a revert "'' It is the addition of a source requested for //], '''the controversial''' Israeli historian// GabrielF even put it '''quotes''' on the revert //''"controversial" needs to be sourced - see WP:WEASEL'' // Not ] | |||
:'such sweeping changes' = two small changes, one giving the required Secondary Source for "], the controversial Israeli historian" which was called for by GabrielF, the other to remove information in breach by consensus of ]/], my edit gave both victims equal WEIGHT and equal POV ... ] (]) 13:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*EdJohnston - See reply to WGFinley. | |||
:''"He has also been topic banned for three months in the past"'' T. Canens read only one discussion. Comment on sanctions by T. Canens ''"I haven't got the time to read through the discussions yet, but I did take a quick look at the edit summaries they are using. Looks like a broader sanction may be needed here." T. Canens (talk) 21:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)'' | |||
:Despite being reasonably requested, No More Mr Nice Guy and AnonMoos refused to use edit summaries at all in discussions with me in that period ... I used the edit summaries to ''remind myself'' of what had taken place. If it said 'false accusation' you will find a false accusation. 'Please address the issue' you will find the issue was not addressed. Where 'asked again for personal comments to stop', you will find a stream of personal comments etc ... ] (]) 13:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Comment on Results after my response === | |||
*WGFinley ''"it doesn't qualify as a reliable source as it's promotional material from a back cover of a book"'' This is from the promotional blurb in a book. has an ISBN. After going to the ISBN page, the reader then has to go further to a copy of the book only to find the citation is actually part of the books own publicity spiel '''It is there by consensus''' of the same group of people | |||
*I note also there's not one word about continual consensus to breach WP:NPOV WP:VERIFY WP:WEIGHT Which makes one big smelly joke of Misplaced Pages and it's policies | |||
*<del>I bid you anon... </del> I have enough ... ] (]) 18:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*This is quite simply bizarre. EdJohnson - ''"In a while this AE request was open, Talknic seems to be hurling acronyms at random.."'' | |||
:No EdJohnson they are not at random, they're very specific violations of WP:VERIFY WP:NPOV WP:WEIGHT by consensus, documented in the very same Talk page | |||
:Allowing violations of policy by consensus to pass without comment or notice, could be seen to dovetail nicely with No More Mr Nice Guy's remark -- ''"to put this in terms you will more easily relate to, the people scrutinizing my actions will be my fellow flat worlders"'', and give weight to The Devil's Advocate's comment of 19:31, 24 December 2011. Enforcing sanctions against those who violate by consensus would prove otherwise ...] (]) 05:52, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*WGFinley - ''"I had a chance to go through the archives on 1948 Arab-Israeli War a bit and they are quite telling, I agree with your take Ed.. I see several editors trying to work with Talknic and they eventually get worn down and give up."'' 'trying to work with' = trying to prevent information being added at every turn. Time and again, at the ever moving goal posts I have attempted compromise only to find the goal posts move yet again. Example ... ] (]) 12:05, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
The reference by Weatherwriter to 21 November 2024 - Talk page PIA edit prior to EC status. Is only a partial quote - what I actually said was "I don't give a stuff about what you or Israel say about the declaration. I care about whether it is in the scope of this page." | |||
: He begins by misrepresenting my suggestion. At no point did I suggest labeling people and organizations as "terrorist".. He even goes as far as to attempt to coerce me into violating WP policy. (swiftly withdrawn on my denunciation) | |||
The key is the final point - the scope of this article and whether the edits are validly cited in accordance with the topic of the article...namely a list of declarations of war. | |||
:You will note at least 4 instances where '''I attempted to compromise''', based on his ever moving goal posts. Finally he had concede. His closing remark ''"Oh well. Nobody can accuse me of "'' When in fact he tried by every means to prevent information being published. You will also note I even agreed to include similar information on other groups as he suggested. He has never taken up the offer ... ] (]) 08:31, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. | |||
: Another classic example of No More Mr Nice Guy's moving goal posts, obfuscation and desperately trying to defend the indefensible. He was defeated by consensus, resulting in an informative RS, mathematically correct statement replacing what can only be described as weasel worded nonsense ... ] (]) 10:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
'''I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page.''' GRRRRRRrrr | |||
: Another example of No More Mr Nice Guy's tactics ''"As usual you're using primary sources and your personal opinion on what they mean."'' No More Mr Nice Guy 08:54, 22 March 2011 | |||
:My reply ''"The existing uses the '''exact same source'''. I can find no objection by yourself to the existing. The editor has misrepresented the evidence in the existing exact same source, by taking items out of order, truncating and misquoting. All of which are listed above. In the changes, I have taken the existing, ordered it and cited it un-truncated (suggesting it be referenced), corrected the misquoted "Arab inhabitants". | |||
:''As you have not previously objected to the source you cannot claim now that it is invalid and as you have not previously objected to the dialogue, can you please show me where, in the guidelines, that additional material from the cited source cannot be added in accordance with editorial policies. Thx. BTW Citing NON-existent policy guidelines is a reportable offence"'' talknic 06:07, 23 March 2011 ... ] (]) 11:02, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Time and again, it is '''only on my edits''' that No More Mr Nice Guy shows interest in the quality of the editing, the lack of sources, the misrepresentations, the primary sources. He has never asked for a CN. On all but one occasion he simply does a wholesale revert. Even reverting to un-sourced versions in violation of WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT, WP:RS, by consensus what's more | |||
: After I supplied a Secondary Source for my edit, (the previous was unsourced and did not reflect the Armistice Agreements it referred to. No More Mr Nice Guy had no previous objection to it what so ever! No More Mr Nice Guy reverts to an un-sourced version of a contentious issue, claiming consensus. Consensus to leave unsourced information which does not accurately reflect the Armistices it mentions | |||
:No More Mr Nice Guy ''"I changed the wording to "former Mandate Palestine". I believe that was the term most editors supported in a previous discussion we had."'' However no such discussion ever took place on the template wording. The discussion was in fact for another section. none of the 'consensus' makers provided any sources what so ever and the article has been left, by consensus, with a statement '''which is not supported by the Secondary Source!!!''' | |||
:In his No More Mr Nice Guy says ''"Casus - still not sure what it means. "'' It is a part of the template!!! Not even knowing what it meant, he deleted a reliably Secondary Sourced statement ... ] (]) 11:59, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:'''I challenge the responding editors to look closely''' at No More Mr Nice Guy's rationale for removing the information at 'casus' ''"I removed the text from the "casus" part. I'm not sure what this is supposed to be. Causes? Casus belli? In either case the description there wasn't correct so I removed it"'' In fact I changed the description so that it WAS correct according to the pre-existing source. | |||
:At 13:48, 14 December 2011 at casus, it said the following: "Safeguard the security and right to self-determination of inhabitants of Israel in an independent state" Giving the source as ] | |||
:At 23:44, 14 December 2011 , I corrected the statement to ACCURATELY reflect the information in the pre-existing source. | |||
:He even says "Causes? Casus belli?" (an editor with no online dictionary? Amazing!) ... ] (]) 07:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
'''WGFinley''' - You provide this link and said ''"is pretty bad form and indicative the fight is preferred to harmonious collaboration."'' | |||
*Frederico1234 - says "The first statement about where the fighting took place is true whether the source supports it or not" This is in complete violation of WP policy, which tells us the source MUST support the statement. | |||
:My reply "The first part of the statement did not accurately reflect any UNSC resolution, any Ceasefire or Armistice Agreement and; Secondary Sources must accurately reflect the documents they cite and; the first part of the statement is not supported by the given source." Which is entirely in keeping with WP policy. Please tell everyone, how this is "pretty bad form". | |||
*Frederico1234 - says "The source could be changed" I point him to where I had previously been attempting to do so and each time the CN was removed, leaving a statement not supported by the source. How it is "bad form and indicative the fight is preferred to harmonious collaboration?" when I made more than one effort to collaborate by asking for the source to be changed via the appropriate action, placing CNs. | |||
:Is it not WP policy that a Reliable Secondary Sources must accurately reflect the documents they refer to? Because that is precisely what I then suggested to Frederico1234 "find a reliable Secondary Source accurately reflecting any UNSC resolution, Ceasefire or Armistice agreement saying "former territory of the British Mandate". Completely within WP policy for me to make such a request. In fact it is WP policy that they must | |||
*I then point to the fact that the statement, as it stood un-verified by consensus, could lead people to think it includes Transjordan, referring to No More Mr Nice Guy who gave this reason for reverting , ''"lead correctly summarizes article using consensus wording" british mandate is wikilinked in previous sentence so they likelihood that someone would be confused about what it includes is low"'' | |||
:A) 'consensus' was to contravene WP policy by retaining information not reflected in the source and; B) The Wikilink No More Mr Nice Guy provided ] has a map which actually INCLUDES TRANSJORDAN!!! It's not my doing that No More Mr Nice Guy disproved his little theory and immediately shows there '''IS likelihood that someone would be confused''' about what the challenged phrase includes | |||
:C) How on earth you reach a conclusion that I show "pretty bad form and indicative the fight is preferred to harmonious collaboration" is quite bizarre ... ] (]) 09:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
On another point, following me reviewing the information in this complaint by WeatherWriter... | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning talknic==== | |||
"If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)" The complainant cites a link to information which I have JUST accessed and have never seen before just now. I was NOT aware of this information so it is false to suggest that this constitutes evidence that I was aware. | |||
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to[REDACTED] then please just say so. GRRR | |||
===== Statement by The Devil's Advocate ===== | |||
] (]) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I give up... I'm being accused and being told off for responding to the accusation. I don't know anything about this procedure, have never seen this page before and know nothing about how this works because its new to me. | |||
*:But I get it - I'm not part of the club that decides things... so I'll let you get on with that. ] (]) 00:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::<small>(Moved from WeatherWriter's section</small> I get it - you'd rather call me out by this procedure than have an accurate encyclopaedia article. You've made accusations against me and put me through this over restrictions that I knew nothing about and policies I knew nothing about. I simply came across something inaccurate and followed what I understood to be WP principles and made an objectively accurate edit. | |||
::::So now the end result is that an inaccurate article containing a politically biased assertion is going to stay live. ] (]) 02:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Marlarkey=== | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
*<!-- | |||
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{{u|Marlarkey}}, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{u|Weather Event Writer}}, extension granted as that's essentially what Marlarkey has already taken. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The first one does not appear to be a revert. As one can see by going to the previous diff, GabrielF's revert of an IP editor contained the edit summary "Reverted '''good faith''' edits by 82.45.198.134 (talk): "controversial" '''needs to be sourced''' - see WP:WEASEL. (TW)" suggesting that Talknic's actions were in fact satisfying a concern about citing a contentious statement. Benny Morris is certainly a controversial historian and I doubt many people, including Morris himself, would suggest his work is not controversial. When an editor removes material for lacking a source it is not a revert to put the material back in ''with'' a source.--] (]) 00:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
Ok, having now reviewed ]'s page history, its talk page discussion, and Marlarkey's contributions more generally, I find that: | |||
@WG&Ed How can you call the first diff a revert? Talknic did not restore the material '''without a citation''', the ''only reason'' given by the editor who previously reverted the change, but '''instead provided a citation''' to back up a label that anyone who knows anything about the ] would understand is a legitimate characterization.--] (]) 05:31, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:* Marlarkey has repeatedly violated ] at ] since having received a CTOP notice | |||
:*Irrespective of whether it is correct or not to include the Israel-Hamas war, Israel-Hezbollah war, or wars between states and non-state entities more broadly, WeatherWriter's edits to the page are plainly not ], which has a specific (and serious) meaning on Misplaced Pages | |||
:*It appears to be a long-term status quo to include non-state entities provided that there is a citation to some sort of formal declaration of war, and the page's inclusion of conflicts involving non-states ] and ] do not appear to have been challenged at any point. | |||
:*Marlarkey is incorrect to assert that their edit is {{tq|objectively accurate}}. Whether the edit is accurate is subject to community consensus, and the talk page arguments in favor of inclusion base themselves on RS reporting which is a valid, policy-compliant argument. Marlarkey's arguments that a declaration of war can only occur be between two states do not make any reference to a reliable source stating this; while that text is currently in the lead of the article, it does not have a citation nor is it clear that any citation in the article directly backs this. | |||
:*In light of discussion at ], which at this point shows multiple editors in favor of keeping the Hamas and Hezbollah wars, only Marlarkey firmly for removing them, and one other editor calling for discussion as of December 31st, Marlarkey's edits to unilaterally remove the entries in January amount to slow-motion edit warring | |||
:*Given that Marlarkey has had an account for well over a decade, has edited a wide variety of topics, hit 500 edits while this was happening, does not appear to have otherwise shown interest in Israel/Palestine topics, and that the edits at Declaration of war don't fit into any clear POV-warrior pattern, I don't think that pulling extended-confirmed or issuing a PIA topic ban would help. | |||
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from ] (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC | |||
*As Marlarkey stated that they were unaware of CT, I wanted to confirm that I double checked and found that the CT notice was properly left in November. If Marlarkey chose not to read it, well, that's rather on him—we can only leave messages, we can't force people to read them. I would otherwise agree with Rosguill's assessment. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 12:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I entirely endorse Rosguill's reading of this. I am not happy about Marlarkey's approach to our restrictions, but I don't see this as EC gaming, and I can't see how pulling EC rights could be justified at this stage. As such I endorse the proposed page block and logged warning. Marlarkey, you seem to believe that because you are right on the substance you can ignore process and guidelines - that simply isn't true. The arbitration committee has consistently held that ]; you need to be able to edit within the scope of our policies. ] (]) 17:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* Pretty much everything Rosquill said. {{u|Marlarkey}}, it doesn't look like you have a huge amount of experience working in ]s. I'm sorry you're finding this upsetting, but CTOPs are a whole 'nother world, and you're either going to have to learn how to nonproblematically work there, or not work there. ] (]) 18:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:FWIW, the CTOP warning was ]. You've got your archiving set so aggressively that you may be missing a lot of messages, and it's completely plausible that you missed this one, which was only on your talk for two days, and after it was left you didn't edit for a month. However, we do assume that if you've got your archiving set that aggressively, you're keeping on top of anything important by checking your notifications to make sure you didn't miss anything. | |||
*:You can probably prevent this happening in future by having your talk page archive ''no more frequently than you typically go between editing sessions'', leaving maybe the five most recent messages unarchived, and/or being sure to check your notifications when logging back in. Any one of those three and you've have likely seen the notification. ] (]) 18:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hatb}} | |||
==DanielVizago== | |||
Wg, I think that argument is using the letter of policy to run roughshod over its spirit and leaving policy mangled in the treads. An editor reverted a change while raising just one specific policy objection, and Talknic clearly and unequivocally satisfied that one objection. The principle of edit-warring policy is that articles should not see any editor abuse the editing process in a way that impedes the consensus-building process. When an editor removes something and says it needs a source, adding the material back in with an authoritative source is not impeding the consensus-building process in any way. Rather, that is a rather stellar example of how the process is supposed to work. In fact, the nature of the source provided clearly suggests that WP:LABEL was also fully satisfied, despite NMMNG's concerns. Talknic's source is the author bio on one of Benny Morris' own books clearly saying he is a "controversial historian" suggesting this is not something that would be even remotely contentious to include. Counting this as a revert would set a bad precedent for frivolous administrative action in the future.--] (]) 07:19, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
:WP:LABEL was not satisfied. It specifically says "When using ''controversial'', give readers enough information to know what the controversy is about". That didn't happen. Also, we avoid labeling every historian in IP articles because, let's face it, many of them are "controversial". | |||
:Anyway, even if it was a legitimate edit, 1RR still applies. That's exactly the spirit of the policy. Don't make more than one revert in 24 hours, no matter what those reverts are. ] (]) 07:28, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::The source clearly satisfied that point as well. His "revisionist" work on the Nakba is what makes him controversial. Your point about many historians being controversial is a reasonable one, though. However, that does not make Talknic's change a revert. Edit-warring policy defines a revert as an edit "that reverses the actions of other editors" and even that narrow definition applied in an overly technical manner does not really apply here. The other editor in this case clearly said that his action was based on the lack of a source. Adding a source to that material as explicitly requested in the edit summary is not reversing that editor's action but building on it in the way the consensus-building process expects. Had Talknic restored the material without a citation then it would have been a revert as it would just repeat the offense the other editor's action was undoing.--] (]) 07:55, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:TDA, you ,misunderstand the 1RR rule entirely. This rule is there to prevent edit wars. It is not the best instrument (as it essentially impedes and even prevents improvement of articles by editors who would like to make dozens of edits in one day. However this is considered necessary in this contentious area to prevent edit wars. Under this rule ANY revert is a revert, regardless contentious or not. As ] says, a revert may be a removal of one word. The point, especially in cases of 1RR, is that if one is allowed to make 2 reverts, others who disagree are prevented from this, so there is no equality. For this reason, 1RR applies to all edits, with some clear exceptions (reverting vandalism, or gross BLP violations, or illegal material). The edits do not need to be contentius to qualify under 1RR rule, although the sanction will, I am sure, depend on what kind of reverts they are. In the current case, both reverts are contentious. I am not saying they against policy, or bad faith edits, or anyhow wrong of and by themselves. But they are violations of 1RR, clear cut. - ] (]) 07:44, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::Let me be clear, '''I am saying the first diff is not a revert'''.--] (]) 08:01, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
@WG GabrielF took out '''uncited''' material and Talknic put in '''cited''' material. Talknic cannot be said to have reversed GabrielF's action as GabrielF's action was based on the lack of a citation. So it cannot be called a revert to reinsert the material '''with''' a citation.--] (]) 18:00, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Request concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
'''Comment on broader nature of dispute''' | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Schazjmd}} 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|DanielVizago}}<p>{{ds/log|DanielVizago}}</p> | |||
Looking over this article and roughly the past year or so of edits leads me to the following conclusions: | |||
#This article is packed to the brim with POV-pushing, poorly-cited material that works together to push a synthesis position that the 1948 war was about the Arabs wanting to kill all the innocent Jews and those who supported them were motivated by anti-Semitism, omitting or glossing over the more nuanced geopolitical and personal motivations of the parties involved. | |||
#Talknic has been consistently editing in a manner that seeks to offset this blatant bias towards an extreme pro-Israel position and has made some constructive progress, together with several missteps. | |||
#No More Mr. Nice Guy, despite repeatedly getting involved in edit-warring with regards to Talknic, has not been subjected to any sanctions for any of his tendentious editing practices even as he is the one consistently bringing up the other party for sanctions. The evidence is so substantial for this it is only really necessary that one comb through the revision history of this article and look at any instance where Talknic and NMMNG's edits occur within a short time frame of each other. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | |||
Under these circumstances, I am baffled at how this situation has been allowed to persist where only one side of the dispute is subjected to increasingly severe sanctions, while the other gets off scot-free every time.--] (]) 19:31, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===== Statement by Nishidani ===== | |||
Talknic, whatever the hairsplitting technicalities, NMMGG has a good case. It's patently useless putting adjectives like 'controversial' before mentions of established and distinguished scholars, historians, unless they are exceptionally controversial like David Irving, who was widely recognized as a considerable historian, and then became extremely controversial. Morris's work, as does that of most good historians, engenders controversy. This does not make him controversial. | |||
The second diff shows an edit that is indefensible, for removing sound and easily verifiable content. If you disliked the word 'trigger', you could have asked for a better source on the verb. But the source also contains statistics that standard works on the history of Egypt also use. See ]'s book, for example. Reverting content that is either easily verifiable or well sourced, is not permissible. I did a large part of the ] page, and this is the only reason, familiarity with one of the details expunged, for my commenting here. ] (]) 14:37, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:Nishidani - as you've addressed me here.... | |||
:The sentence was removed because of the violation by consensus of WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV. Furthermore consensus is: not to include such added finer details in the Lede. My edit left both victims equally represented. Both wikilinked to finer detail. | |||
:''"Reverting content that is either easily verifiable or well sourced, is not permissible."'' Your advice seems a touch hypocritical. '''Violation of WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV are not permissible''' and; the record shows almost without exception edits made by me, even with WP:RS & WP:VERIFIABLE Secondary Sources, have been reverted wholesale by NMMNG, without taking anything to the Talk pages. Never once using an appropriate CN. At times reverting to versions that, by consensus of course, contravene WP:RS / WP:NPOV / WP:WEIGHT | |||
:''" did a large part of the ] page..."'' then you KNOW the information is Wikilinked ... ] (]) 02:20, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::What constitutes undue weight or NPOV is not often clear, and has to be proven. I regard a huge number of articles here as suffering from those problems, but I don't try to fix any by sheer elision of good sources. The only thing I care about, in the hairsplitting nonsense that proliferates here, is that good RS are not erased by anyone, unless they can be improved. ] (]) 08:41, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Nishidani -- The Paragraph was HEAVILY weighted towards the Jewish victims who were not even in the war zone, while only Wikilinking to the Palestinians, who were in and from the war zone. Look at it. After all the dialogue in Talk about keeping the Lede of articles simple and short, an unbalanced wad of information is added addressing only consequences for the Jewish victims, pushing the paragraph into being in contravention of WP:WEIGHT. | |||
:::Whereas, I left both victims Wikilinked, which is where detail is gone into and; '''is in fact gone into from the same source ''' | |||
:::''"good RS are not erased by anyone, unless they can be improved. "'' NMMNG Reverts good RS Secondary Sources when they're mine in a flash. He simply does a wholesale revert, with an M/O of forcing the issue into Talk for interminable obfuscation via ever moving goal posts. Little concern that often his reverts are to statements contravening WP policies (by consensus of course) ... ] (]) 13:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:Nishidani, using a Holocaust denier as an example of the only time it is legitimate to say someone's work is controversial is a tad excessive. Of course, good point or not, that is a matter for discussing elsewhere. Here there is a very clear issue of whether reinserting material with a source when it was only removed for lacking a source counts as a revert. The notion that this is how reverts will be defined should be extremely troublesome to anyone interested in the betterment of Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 04:09, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::'as an example of '''the only time''' it is legitimate to say...' Please, I never wrote or implied that.] (]) 08:41, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::The point is someone's work need not be ''that'' controverisal to be called controversial in an article. However, please take this question to the article's talk page if you want to continue.--] (]) 15:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Talknic=== | |||
<!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
The first diff is definitely a revert but the case for another one after that is a stretch. However, as someone previously sanctioned talknic appears to be tempting fate; it's bad form to make such sweeping changes on a long standing article with dozens of references and over 162 citations on a 63 year old conflict. Prudence would dictate further discussion of changes. --] (]) 03:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
@TDA It's clearly a revert, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that you only get one a day. --] (]) 06:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*This is a technical violation of the ] rule. If the editor was in no trouble before, this might be allowed to pass with a warning, but there is a background to consider. The first edit restores the word 'controversial', recently removed, and the second edit is clearly removing some text. Both of these could be good faith changes, but there are not supposed to be two such changes within 24 hours. | |||
*The background is not encouraging. Talknic got notified of the ARBPIA sanctions last April as the result of a 1RR complaint over ]. (Anybody see a pattern?) In lieu of a block, he was notified. He because he insisted he had not committed a violation. Then he was in trouble over the same article in November when he was given a 48-hour AE block. He has also been . In AE discussions ] never admits to the slightest problem with his edits. Under these conditions even a technical violation is too much, and I suggest a one-week block. ] (]) 05:16, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
@TDA the "controversial" line, GabrielF about an hour later and Talknic the next day but within 24 hours, a violation. He included a source, it doesn't qualify as a ] as it's promotional material from a back cover of a book, so it's still a revert. Since this was already put in and removed the revert was used for the day, Talknic should have gone to the talk page and said "Hey, I think this should be in the article and here's my source." this is how revert edit wars are prevented via ] and why '''the community''' placed said restriction on P-I articles. --] (]) 15:53, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
I don't know if a block works for me, it seems it's time for Talknic to go back on a TBAN, since it was 3 months prior I would go for 6 months this time around. While this revert is technical, propping up the back cover of a book as a "source" shows pretty extreme length to make one's point. Couple that with an utter refusal to recognize his/her behavior is tendentious, removes sourced material from the article and then acknowledges this AE but instead goes back to the article's talk page to argue some more is pretty bad form and indicative the fight is preferred to harmonious collaboration. --] (]) 16:04, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:See the talk pages at ] and ] to get an overview of what they've been involved in. I concentrated on the period since 2 August when Talknic's last topic ban expired. Anyone with enough patience can also look at ] which contains many posts by these two editors in the period since 27 October. I do not see that *anybody* on the article talk page has supported Talknic's proposals since 27 October, yet has continued to edit the article. This leads me to agree with ] that a new six-month topic ban of Talknic is the best plan. If Talknic seemed to have the slightest understanding of the problems that people see with his edits, a different result might have been considered. The by NMMNG hints at why nobody winds up agreeing with Talknic. Talknic's harsh criticism of his opponents and his lack of AGF regarding them is also on display in that diff. 'Tendentious' may seem like a strong word but 'persistent and oblivious' can easily be justified. In while this AE request was open, Talknic seems to be hurling acronyms at random and lacks the ability to reflect on his own behavior. ] (]) 17:54, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::I had a chance to go through the archives on ] a bit and they are quite telling, I agree with your take Ed.. I see several editors trying to work with Talknic and they eventually get worn down and give up. Appears the 6 month TBAN is in order. --] (]) 22:37, 24 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*Closing. ] is banned from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed across all namespaces for six months, for reasons given in the Result section of this AE. ] (]) 16:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
== Nableezy == | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
===Request concerning Nableezy=== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : ] 02:32, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Nableezy}} | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ], restriction on adding word "Palestinian" to any article, ] and tendentious editing | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ||
# Added ] to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description, {{tq|This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.}}); | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. --> | |||
# and Removing sourced content from ] that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny; | |||
# Changing content in ] to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary {{tq|rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources}}); | |||
* Adds word "Palestinian" to ] | |||
# Added "bimisandry" to ], citing 4 sources, none of which include that term; | |||
# 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding ] with piped names to unrelated articles, then those names directly to the category page; | |||
# restored the "bimisandry" edit to ], then a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page; | |||
# (after final warning) adds <nowiki>] and ]</nowiki> to ]; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of {{tq|articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.}} | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
Yet, around the same time, Nableezy adds the very same category to ten articles in the span of less than five minutes. All of these are anti-Israel organizations and most of them considered terrorist organizations by the West. It is impossible to find the sources and the articles in that span of time. It is clear that Nableezy is not interested in even checking for sources for his edits when it suits his POV. This type of behavior represents tendentious editing in the extreme. | |||
*None | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
*I alerted them on | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) : | |||
Above diffs are all edits ''after'' the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied ] to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to ] started . On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to ] about misandry, which another editor with edit summary {{tq|remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt}}. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors. | |||
<!-- Many arbitration remedies require a prior warning before sanctions may be imposed. Link to the warning here. --> | |||
Before the level 4 warning, I guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. ] ] 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* The restriction even applies to vandalism | |||
*List of Blocks | |||
*Log of Bans | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
* | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint: | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
Nableezy is an experienced editor who is well versed with the rules and no stranger to these boards. He knew that he was restricted from adding the word “Palestinian” into articles per the last and rather mild AE sanction (tailor made just for him). He also knows that his page is closely watched by his followers. So he cleverly makes and self-reverts with an edit summary . That edit summary is akin to a call to arms or the sounding of the trumpets. In fact, someone heeded his call and Nableezy thus accomplished his objective. '''He performs this game three times'''. The aim is quite simple; to get his version in without technically violating the restriction. The first time he did it, one can perhaps AGF and credit it to a one-time lapse. The problem is that the edit summary on the self-revert demonstrates that Nableezy is very calculating and knows precisely what he’s doing. The second problem is that he did it three times thus evidencing clear knowledge that he is under a restriction, hence the need for a quick self-revert. Thus, the multiple self-reverts on multiple occasions were merely a means to an end. The edits were purposeful with intent to circumvent the restriction and a rather brazen attempt at that. | |||
:Nableezy’s explanation of "forgetfulness" and "absent mindedness" rings hollow and is remarkably insulting to the intelligence of the community. He expects us to believe that on he had a bout with "absent-mindedness" and this "absent-mindedness" repeated itself on and yet again on . Moreover, the restriction was imposed on Nableezy barely a week prior, not six months nor even three months prior but one week prior! Gentlemen, please further bear in mind we are not talking about a novice here but a rather sophisticated and experienced account. | |||
===Discussion concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by DanielVizago==== | |||
===Discussion concerning Nableezy=== | |||
====Statement by |
====Statement by caeciliusinhorto==== | ||
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to ]. | |||
The edits and self-reverts were not, and are not evidence of, an attempt to evade the restriction. To begin with, one of the edits adds the word ''Palestine'', not ''Palestinian'', and it was out of concern that certain less than honest editors, among them the filing editor, would attempt to wikilawyer that into a violation that I self-reverted. The others are simply a result of absent-mindedness, not malice. This isnt a typical ban, I have to think about whether a word is added, not whether a subject is touched or an article is added, and at times I may forget. But as soon as I remember that I have such a restriction I self-revert. I am not prohibited from raising that the edit I initially reverted should be reverted on the talk page, so I make an equivalent note in an edit summary instead. If that is a problem then I will refrain from doing so. But the actual edits are simply from forgetting about the restriction. The self-reverts from remembering it. As far as the second paragraph of JJG "report", that has been discussed at length at Talk:Irgun.<p>At the risk of saying what should be left unsaid, I feel compelled to say this. Jiujitsuguy is among the very worst editors I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. It has been established, several times, that he lies about sources to push a fringe political POV. such as this should be themselves result in bans. Edits such as should by themselves result in bans. Take a look at his act at ] and at ] where he attempts to place what is provable false material in an encyclopedia article. That alone should result in a ban. JJG has, since literally day 1 of editing here, been a serial violator of nearly every single content and conduct policy, from ] and ] to ] and more. He has been interested in one thing here, using Misplaced Pages as a propaganda instrument. You let him get away with lying about sources the last time. Exactly what is necessary to rid this most disruptive and bad-faithed "editors" from this supposed "encyclopedia"? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:52, 25 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:Nish, no, I wouldnt try to make such an argument. I just had a momentarily loss of short-term memory. Something that is known to happen with people of my ilk. Had I recalled the restriction I would have just made an edit on the respective talk page, like I did . I am not trying to avoid the restriction, hell I voluntarily agreed to it. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 23:28, 25 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
As far as the concern with the edit-summaries, if it is a problem Ill ensure that any future self-reverts only say ''self-rv''. It is just easier than opening a talk page section about the issue. If the restriction said that I could not even discuss such changes on talk pages then I could see the edit-summaries as an actual problem, but I am allowed to discuss the issues. It isnt as if I am going around asking editors to make certain reverts, I really dont see the difference between having the edit summary and having no edit summary and opening a talk page section. But the initial edits were due to forgetfulness, nothing else. I mean really, do yall actually think Im that stupid? That if I wanted to surreptitiously evade the ban by asking others to revert edits, I couldnt come up with a more clever way of doing it? I dont mean to sound arrogant, but really, come on. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 06:15, 26 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:TDA, you dont understand my point. The slip up was the initial edit, and that led to the self-reversion. I am actually allowed to ask that people make the needed edit, I can do so on the talk page, just as I did at . I made a comment in an edit summary instead of a talk page. I dont think that makes much of a difference. If told otherwise by an admin Ill just make the note on the talk page instead. But I '''can''' ask that others make the edit. There is no effective difference in writing it in the edit summary or in the talk page. The only ways that somebody would see it would be either checking my contributions or having the article in the watchlist. Either way that person would see that I say the edit should be made. It isnt as if I went to a favored user's page and asked that they make the necessary edit, as evidenced by the fact that my edit at ] had not been restored until JJG himself brought it to wider attention here. I am not claiming that my edit summaries were a lapse of any kind, I dont think there is anything wrong with them to begin with. The momentary lapse was making the edit in the first place, necessitating the self-revert. Had I simply remembered the sanction I would have done what I did at Bethlehem, request the edit be made on the talk page. I dont know where you get the idea that I am ''asking someone'' (specifically a person) to make an edit I am restricted from making, or, generally that I am restricted from asking editors in general to make an edit that I am restricted from making. You are incorrect on both counts. I wrote to any passing person that an edit should be made. I did not request that any one editor, or even a particular subset of editors, make an edit. So no, I was not asking ''someone'' to do anything. And yes, I am allowed to request edits that I am restricted from making be made. My ban does not include commenting on the subject, it is specific to adding a word to an article. I mistakenly did that a few times, and self-corrected each within a matter of minutes. I am not surprised, well a little bit considering the pettiness of it, that it has drawn attention, though I am surprised that anybody who is not a committed partisan (and honestly I would expect some of them to be shaking their heads at this) could see this as anything at all. I made a mistake and corrected it immediately. If my choice of venue for requesting the edit be reverted was wrong I will not do so again in the future and simply request the edit be reverted on the talk page instead. I am not however going to not request such edits be reverted. Look I just ], and ]. I am allowed to discuss the issues and allowed to request that an edit be reverted. I am only restricted from actually performing the edit. I made a few mistakes in doing so, and corrected them as soon as I realized, without even being prompted to do so. I dont think this will even be an issue in the future, as I think I have been sufficiently reminded of the zeal of certain users in being able to, well, I leave that unsaid. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 07:54, 26 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
Shuki, that is a gross distortion of the events. What I advised you to do was not to self-revert an edit so that you could then revert a different edit. That does not resemble this in any way. And, if I am not mistaken, once you self-reverted that ended the dispute, and I thanked you for doing so. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 17:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:Yes, JJG, I expect people to believe me when I say that I simply forgot about the restriction as I made those reverts, and as soon as I remembered them I self-reverted. As I, unlike you, do not have an established history of lying here I think it is fair that I expect people to believe me when I say something. And to be clear, youre belief that I did this three times is demonstrably false. I made one edit that added the word Palestine, and self-reverted out of what may be over-cautiousness with regard to respecting the sanction. I made two edits that added the word ''Palestinian'' and self-reverted within minutes. You can continue distorting the events, and you may even get a less than careful admin who is not aware of your extensive history of willful distortions to believe you, but your claims remain false. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:19, 26 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
Boris and TDA, I object to the equivalence you are giving between JJG's report and the one I filed against him. JJG lied about sources. That is among the most serious offenses an editor can commit. You cannot seriously compare that to bringing a couple of quickly self-reverted edits here, in either substance or pettiness. You cannot seriously be claiming that my reporting an editor who repeatedly lied about sources is at all comparable to this. Boris, as far as your thoughts on how I would react to an "opposing editor" who self-reverted soon after an initial violation, I wouldnt raise it. In fact, I tell people they can self-revert an edit to avoid being brought here. In fact, even with an editor who repeatedly lies about sources, I to self-revert rather than be reported. So, if I were asked about an "opposing editor" giving the same explanation, who had self-reverted both violations within minutes, I would accept it. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 02:05, 27 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:TDA, I honestly do not understand how you can come to the conclusions that you do. You are inventing arguments and attributing them to me. I am not saying that I was ''just discussing the issue'', I freely admit, and have done so several times above, that I was ''plainly call for other people to perform the action prohibited from taking''. I already told you that. I can say an edit should be reverted. The sole issue here is that I did it in an edit summary and not the talk page. If that is a problem I apologize, I didnt think it could possibly be an issue. As far as bringing up the past incident, the relevance is that I raise that as evidence of JJG's general tendentiousness, which I think making this report is an indication of. He reported me for several edits that I self-reverted within minutes. This after he spent the last week trying to push into an encyclopedia article demonstrably false statements (see the RS/N and Katzrin talk page), and that after he had just gotten off by the skin of his knuckles here at that AE for repeatedly lying about sources. In my view, all of these things combine to show that the user's purpose remains what it has been since the day he got here, and this report itself is just a continuation of that. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 05:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:And I am saying you are wrong. There is nothing wrong with me doing ], nothing at all. And again, I am not ''telling someone'', that implies I am asking an individual to do something. No, I am making a note that an edit should be reverted, and not alerting any specific editors over anything. As far as what ''the restriction was imposed to prevent'', I doubt it was this type of nonsense. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 06:32, 27 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:TDA, you can think whatever you like, but my restriction is specific to adding a word to articles. It does not say that I cannot ask others to add that word to articles. I am not "topic banned", I am "article banned", there is a difference. But since you are not an uninvolved admin, I cant say that I think it is a productive use of my time to explain this to you any further. Ill wait for comments from uninvolved admins before responding further. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:45, 27 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
Michael, I struggle to imagine that anything you have done in the topic area has been in good faith, but that is besides the point. You and a ''group'' of editors have been attempting to have me banned on the most trifling of charges, while you excuse editors lying about sources, making asinine accusations of antisemitism, or edit-war against consensus. There has not been any ''leniency'' for me, and this idea is horseshit. There havent been the sanctions handed out to me that you wish there were because they arent, despite the distortions of this ''group'' of editors, justified. You think I bring every little issue to AE? I waited days, and repeatedly asked the user in question to retract the accusation, prior to bringing the accusation of supporting genocide here. With Shuki I gave him repeated opportunities to self-revert instead of being reported, and when he did the matter ended. I have not brought JJG here despite his bad faith attempt at inserting what he knows to be false material into an article (Katzrin being the largest town in the Golan), though I could have. With you, I waited until you '''three times''' (!) reverted an edit that has consensus before bringing the issue here. I ignore a ton of crap that gets thrown my way, it is the egregious things that make its way here (with a couple of exceptions, exceptions based on long histories with particular users). You can pretend that I am the one abusing AE and violating WP policy, but anybody who actually goes through your contributions both here and within the topic area, starting with the ridiculous discussion at Alon Shvut, will quickly see that your words are better directed inward. This case remains about 1 edit that added ''Palestine'', not ''Palestinian'', that was quickly self-reverted and 2 edits that added ''Palestinian'' that were quickly self-reverted. Your distortion of the record is duly noted, however it does not change the facts here. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 22:10, 27 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
* , categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. ]) | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Nableezy==== | |||
* adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of | |||
=====Comment by Michael Netzer===== | |||
* and edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. ]) | |||
] (]) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The restriction that Nableezy accepted on adding 'Palestinian' is not like 1RR and 3RR where a self-revert remedies a violation. No such stipulation of self-revert was made by EdJohnston nor accepted by Nableezy. The self-revert cannot thus be said to remedy the violation. It's enough that he does it 3 times to constitute a violation that shows little respect for the sanction, and even more contempt for it by self-reverting and then calling for other editors to revert again. --] (]) 07:31, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Simonm223==== | |||
:This case is a symptom of a larger malady. Nableezy is not alone in sowing a contentious behavior in this area. The forgiving hand at AE that he's received has also empowered his friends to arms who've adopted his style. I came from a far more harmonious editing space and quickly found myself assaulted simply for engaging in good faith editing that unfortunately disagrees with how this group operates. It's not easy to stand by and watch how everything Misplaced Pages stands for is being trampled by a few editors abusing its policies. There is very little respect for facts or civility in this area and the abuse is largely coming from one side. Certainly not all of it, but the aggressive battleground behavior is very one sided. Being silent and forgiving about it is only making things worse. I shrug at one editor pointing fingers at others after the hostility they've dished out of late. I shudder at an editor taking the high moral ground about not hastening to AE every time Nableezy is called to the carpet for a violation. Nableezy has been empowered to get away with spreading intimidation and lording it over others as if he owns the encyclopedia. He jumped into a dispute he wasn't involved in, giving orders as if someone appointed him General, made an edit that had no consensus - and has now filed a complaint for reverts to restore the content to its pre-dispute state. This egregious abuse of policy, also evident in this case, will not stop unless AE begins to treat him equally, and the same judgments are meted out to him as they are to others. Maybe it's time to reconsider whether the leniency has been effective. The results so far, and the growing dissent of editors suffering at his hands, are undermining Nableezey's cause itself. Instead of being an effective spokesman for a cause, his methods are becoming a blemish. This case is only a symptom. But it is a rather clear one for a behavior pattern, and should be seen in the wider context of Nableezy's behavior. --] (]) 19:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
Might be wise, as long as doing so wouldn't interfere with evidence, to get a revision deletion on some of the diffs presented above that make unfounded statements about BLPs. ] (]) 18:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Nishidani===== | |||
If this place were civil, a self-revert would cancel the error. NMMGG told me I had (inadvertently) made 2 reverts. I couldn't understand his point, and took his word for it, and selfbanned myself for a month, from article edits. That is how this should be done mainly, on talk pages, notifying an editor and seeing if he is amenable to reason. | |||
As to the diffs, Nableezy is worse than myself in the precise construal of what is said. He was told not to add 'Palestinian'. Some of them consist not of 'adding' the word Palestinian to any text, but restoring it to articles where it had been, vandalistically, ''subtracted'. Subtraction and addition are diametrically opposed processes. But I think Ed is the person to decide on this. | |||
Jiujituguy, this bit about Nableezy dropping hints to 'followers' is pure fantasy. User:Taivo, who followed the point made in Nableezy's edit summary is an awesome wikipedian, a professional linguist who knows exactly how to make the right call on a page dealing with languages, independently bookmarked, and he did as any one competent would do. Seeding tagteaming suspicions where they is no evidence for them is not a proper way to make a formal complaint. Nor is waiting 3 days to bring up old evidence and present Nableezy with a 'Christmas gift'. Gift in German means poison.] (]) 16:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:If you slip up, you should, in my view, police yourself and we should all try to get used to it. It was 'subtraction' not 'adding'. Secondly, once one realizes the mistake, one should drop a note on any AE editor's page, explain it, and impose, irrerspective of the advice there, a self-ban. It saves admins a heck of a lot of time. The temptation for notoriously poor editors to play games and out someone is great here. This however, Nab, is not a mitigating factor. Just take a break, son, for a month or two. If the admins here really think it is more serious than that, they will extend the sanction themselves. I personally think Goffman could write, were he alive, a funny treatise on the mad rules we must adhere to if we join the wiki tribe. But rules are rules, and when in doubt, the guest is obliged to defer to the 'community's' (another word I hate) sensitivities by displays of good will in which one's own personal values (honour, regard for maintaining the highest standards) at times take second place. This is all intensely trivial, alas, and stinks to high heaven, but, at times, you concede nothing to enmity by complaint. To the contrary. Social order in democracies is not secured by police sanctions, but by the daily exercise of individual self-restraint.] (]) 07:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by The Devil's Advocate===== | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
I am torn on this question. On one hand I want to assume good faith that Nableezy self-reverted because of an honest failure to remember the restriction or confusion over it. On the other hand the fact he has done this three days in a row, self-reverted within a minute or less of making the edit, and on two occasions in his self-revert calls for someone else to make the revert (something he should surely know is no different from reverting the change himself) leads me to suspect JJG may be correct about Nableezy's intent. At the same time I can see how Nableezy might see several of these cases as legitimate exceptions to the restriction, especially the edit to Palestinian Arabic that I think probably qualifies as vandalism. Such a muddled case makes me wonder if the restriction has much chance of being enforceable. There is a broader issue, however, in the way JJG and Nableezy are both apparently attempting to use this request to pursue a personal vendetta by raising frivolous concerns (the Irgun cat where Nab reverted a sock) or issues that have already been decided on (the Mount Hermon case that was already ended).--] (]) 05:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
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===Result concerning DanielVizago=== | |||
@Nableezy No, I do not think you are stupid. I think you are more than intelligent enough to understand that asking someone to make an edit you are not allowed to make is a clear-cut violation of the restriction and not an effort at discussing the issue. Obviously you wanted someone to see your comment about the material needing to be reverted and act according to your wishes. Maybe you could argue that it was a slip-up in the heat of the moment, but again you did it more than once in a very short period of time. That doesn't make such a defense very convincing.--] (]) 07:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
Oh for Heaven's sake! JJG and now they're too.--] (]) 21:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
Nableezy, the problem is not with the case you presented against JJG, I think you were right. However, bringing it up here where it has no relevance at all after it has already been concluded and complaining that the admins should "get rid of" JJG is not the way to challenge this request. In fact, by immediately resorting to such tactics you are only making yourself look worse. By the same token trying to say that you were just discussing the issue when you plainly called for other people to perform the action you were prohibited from taking is not helping you look better. The examples you give of you discussing are not working for you either, because in two you are making purely technical comments that would not really involve adding the word Palestinian, but simply changing Palestine to Palestinian. The other discussion is you talking about the problematic editing of a user making one of the changes you briefly reverted after other editors have been reverting the editor. None of them shows you simply telling other people to perform a revert in your stead. I do not think the restriction was imposed with the understanding that you could just ask someone else to make the same edit you are restricted from making, though Ed's clarification would be helpful.--] (]) 04:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:To be clear, I am objecting to the idea you have put forward that telling someone to make a revert in your stead so you can avoid a violation is the same as discussing the issue on the talk page. Honestly, I think the actual reverts and self-reverts could be reasonably construed as innocent mistakes or confusion and in one case I think the revert could even have been exempt from the restriction, but insisting that you can just tell other people to make the edits you are prohibited from making yourself does not make you seem so innocent. If another situation like the one the restriction was imposed for should arise it seems like you would be of the impression that you can just tell other people to revert in your place and not be doing the very thing the restriction was imposed to prevent.--] (]) 06:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::Telling someone to revert obvious vandalism is one thing, but telling someone to revert a more ambiguous edit is not. Your expressed belief that telling people to revert edits in your place in order to avoid violating a restriction is ok is a serious problem. Just because the few cases involved have been plausible exemptions or unclear does not mean that your position is respectful of the restriction.--] (]) 06:43, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Shuki===== | |||
I don't see any reason to even contemplate Nableezy's innocent and naive 'slip' of an edit since he just a few days ago, kindly warned me on my talk page, actually threatened to take me to AE, about a problematic edit of mine in which he even brought up his ] from exactly a year ago where he was caught gaming the system by self-reverting among other things to prove I was in the wrong, which I accepted. So any reasonable contributor to this project would step back and be careful when under the magnifying glass, the same one he uses for others. I would advise Nableezy to take the initiative and precaution and self impose a topic ban but Nableezy (and most of us) seems to understand that he'll just get a free pass once again, a little slap on the wrist, and 'advised' about some behaviour or something. --] (]) 17:40, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
*I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. ] (]) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Boris===== | |||
*I want to hear what they have to say, but I'm going to need a fairly convincing explanation as to how they're here to build an encyclopedia and not to POV-push men's rights activism content where it doesn't belong. The IDHT and spammy behavior and the BLP vios on top of that aren't super encouraging, either, but if they decide to communicate, I'm happy to reassess. ] (] • she/her) 22:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
When I saw this, I did not believe my eyes. Nableezy is a known warrier for the cause, but he is usually impeccable with respect to various rules. And here after the recent restriction, he is under a magnifying glass, and then this. He is restricted from using one word, and he adds precisely this word several times. Puzzling. Now comes an explanation; it is all forgetfulness. OK. But then there are these edit summaries. I just imagine what he would say if one of his usual opponents profesed innocence in this way... I would say like this. Edit summaries by themselves are ok. But edit summaries in the self-revert are problematic, because the self-revert is supposed to be an act of contrition. And then this combative defence. This whole thing has a bad smell. But then, as always, I AGF. | |||
*:I'd like to hear what they have to say, too, but I'm also not averse to letting this archive with no further action since the p-block is an indef. I've left another message at their talk. ] (]) 13:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
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I would also say that I don't like that the report is made by JJG. Perhaps JJG and Nableezy should try to step back from this sustained confrontation, especially here on AE. Maybe impose a ban on reporting on AE page? - ] (]) 19:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:At the very least they should probably be banned from commenting about each other on AE and filing requests on each other at AE.--] (]) 21:16, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
==Ekdalian== | |||
===Result concerning Nableezy=== | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
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:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
===Request concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
==MichaelNetzer== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|NXcrypto}} 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Ekdalian}}<p>{{ds/log|Ekdalian}}</p> | |||
===Request concerning MichaelNetzer=== | |||
; Users who are submitting this request for enforcement : ] 23:05, 25 December 2011 (UTC);] (]) 06:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|MichaelNetzer}} | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | <!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | ||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | ;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | ||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | <!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | ||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | ||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. --> | <!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as ], or groundless or ] complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.--> | ||
# - Restoring recently added disputed content, contrary to ] | |||
*Edit warring against consensus at ] | |||
# |
# - Casting unsubstantiated aspersions and poisoning the well against another editor. | ||
# - Poisoning the well against another user without any evidence of misconduct. | |||
# <small>(edit summary: "Undid revision 467092211 by ] (])Discussion and procedure is still ongoing. Lede should remain as was before dispute. Please do not make these changes until consensus is achieved.")</small> | |||
# |
# - Restoring recently added disputed content again and essentially asking to get consensus for it, contrary to ]. | ||
# - Performs a blanket revert in order to make a ], just because their previous edit was reverted, despite it being the version that was arrived upon by a month long discussion on , also saying "LE also wants to discuss and revisit the content proposed by the sock" , LukeEmily later elaborated that they are okay with the version that Ekdalian was actually reverting | |||
# - Same as above but edit warring | |||
# - Edit warring and casting aspersions saying that reverting editor is acting like the blocked sock {{noping|Nobita456}} "stop behaving like Nobita please" | |||
# - Attacks and tries to poison the well against another editor also says that "WP:ONUS doesn't mean you need to achieve consensus with editors condemned by admins for persistent POV pushing! " | |||
# - Restores the aforementioned attack saying "Related to the content only, related to WP:CONSENSUS to be precise; accept the truth, I don't want to report minor incidents" when told to focus on content | |||
# - calling a ] edit as vandalism and issues final warning for vandalism | |||
; Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : | |||
<!-- To the extent it may be relevant, link to previous sanctions such as blocks or topic bans.--> | |||
# Explanation | |||
# Explanation | |||
;If ] are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ]): | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) : | |||
*Has a <nowiki>{{Ds/aware|ipa}}</nowiki> template for the area of conflict on their own talk page. and notified of WP:ARBIPA by Dennis Brown in 2022 | |||
<!-- Many arbitration remedies require a prior warning before sanctions may be imposed. Link to the warning here. --> | |||
The user has been a regular participant here so is obviously aware of the ARBPIA case | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | ; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | ||
I also note that Ekdalian has a history of aggressive edit warring in the contentious topic as a part of slow running edit war.On , many of their most recent edits have been reverts to prevent content addition as well. It has gotten to the point where experienced users like {{noping|Sitush}} have called them out for it because they usually misrepresent the consensus or comments by editors such as Sitush to claim that consensus already exists when there is none, they do not provide diffs when asked to substantiate their claims either. They have been reprimanded in past over similar conduct about misrepresentation and exaggeration by {{ping|Dennis Brown}} on this venue as well. They have a history of attacking other users and trying to poison the well against them instead of ] as diffs above prove. | |||
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MichaelNetzer, after long discussions at ] and ], . MichaelNetzer is alone arguing that a folk etymology be retained as though it were factual. He has threatened to revert against consensus, and has made good on his threat, having reverted the same material 3 times, which has been added by 5 different users at this point.. He has also refused to self-revert, claiming that his argument is superior and despite the overwhelming rejection of that argument his consent is required to remove the material from the lead. No one editor should be allowed to hold an article hostage, and when that editor threatens to do so, and then makes good on his threat, he should be restricted from continuing to do so. | |||
:As far as "protocol" demanding the user be officially notified of the case, that wikilawyer-esque objection was heard, and rejected, in ]. The purpose of the notification is to ensure a user is aware of the case. In the last month or so MichaelNetzer has been a constant presence on this board and is obviously aware of the case. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 19:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:JJG, Im glad you are amazed that I might momentarily and absent-mindedly forget something and then remember it but can remember other issues after thinking them. I am likewise amazed that you do not remember that thread as your were rather involved in it. But I dont think you are ''forgetting'', there is another word that I would use for your feigned ignorance over that issue. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:16, 26 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
I feel it necessary to reply to Michael, as his response is filled with the same distortions that characterize his contributions at Talk:Jerusalem and WP:DRN. He writes ''I asked for an answer to this and none was given''. That is untrue, a reply was given (). He writes ''I have never threatened to revert against consensus.'' His words in diff were<blockquote>If an editor changes the lede, based on arguments made here and in the talk page, motivated by prejudices against nationalism ''("These are the prejudices I bring to edits.")'', lack of knowledge of facts ''("In fact the phrase was alien to my ear, until my eye caught it some years ago on this page")'' and bias towards "holy writ" ''("Very biblical. 'Abode of Peace' is holy writ, and guess who's enjoying the infallibility associated with some office!")'', in order to supersede WP policy and scholarly sources that support the lede as it is, then '''I will revert it'''</blockquote> He wrote ''I have never claimed my argument was "superior" nor would I presume to be a judge of myself.'' He , in reply to my saying that his belief that consensus has not been achieved based on his feeling that his argument is stronger is not acceptable, that ''I have a stronger argument and you are wrong.'' Here he shows the same willingness to distort the record that led him to revert the same material over and over again. This is both tendentious and disruptive. It needs to stop, either by his agreement or through some administrative sanction. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
:This is what I am talking about. The arguments that are made routinely twist plain English. Michael, it isnt that you just claim your argument is stronger, it is you also say that CONSENSUS says the quality is the more important factor and on that basis there is no consensus. Next, you continue with this absurd accusation of a prejudice against a Hebrew association. Nobody is removing the Hebrew from the lead, nobody is even placing the Hebrew after any other language in the first sentence,and there is a link to an explanation of the meaning in the first sentence. What we have done is remove a folk etymology, an error of fact in an encyclopedia article when translating a word. There is no dispute that al-quds means ''the Holy'' in Arabic, so this game of claiming that there is no balance and that a Hebrew translation must balance an Arabic one fails. But even then, several people have offered to remove the translation of the Arabic, even though it isnt necessary, just to satisfy that ill-founded demand for "balance". But no, your argument is stronger, and that determines consensus. And yet you claim you arent taking the article hostage. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 06:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC)</small> | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
I am not seeking any topic bans but Ekdalian should be at least told not to misuse the talk page for adding more fuel into heated disputes, and use the revert button only when it is necessary. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning MichaelNetzer=== | |||
I'm unimpressed by your defence of #10, it was an unsourced change, sure disruptive but not vandalism (which has a very specific meaning). Please refer to ]. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 07:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by MichaelNetzer==== | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
Long before I came to this area, the first sentence in ] included the meanings "Abode of Peace" and "The Holy Sanctuary" for the names in Hebrew and Arabic respectively. The Etymology section covers the pre-Hebrew meaning "Foundation of (the god) Shalem", with an uncontested scholarly source that was also there before I came. | |||
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The same source also ''"The popular meaning of Jerusalem, "the city of peace" comes from the Hebrew word "shalom", meaning peace, harmony and wholeness."'' | |||
===Discussion concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
I did not fabricate this source, nor insert it into the article. "Abode of Peace" is supported by 5 (five) reliable scholarly sources in the article. | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Ekdalian==== | |||
The etymology is factual. How can some editors claim it is not supported by sources when it appears in the article with Five scholarly reliable sources? What else is needed to prove this meaning is factual? | |||
I have nothing to say as such! I have been serving Misplaced Pages since 2013, particularly related to contentious caste articles, fighting against caste promotion, POV pushing and vandalism. Heated debates are common in the contentious topics. I have neither violated 3RR, nor abused any editor! Yes, in case someone has been topic banned and condemned by admins, I do mention the same so that NPOV is not violated. Many admins are aware of my activities including SPI, anti-disruption and anti-vandalism. Thanks & Regards. ] (]) 06:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
] that are not in the article show 'Abode of Peace' is the most popular and recognized meaning of the name Jerusalem. They are only supportive sources, but in that ] and the lede is intended for "a good definition and description" of the topic, 'Adobe of Peace' is factually and extensively supported by sources for inclusion. | |||
:Action (warning) may be taken against NXcrypto for being unable to identify vandalism (refer to point number 10), and wasting the time of our admins! Thanks. ] (]) 06:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Nxcrypto, it is a clear case of vandalism. The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as ] (higher status among Bengali Kayasthas) by intentionally changing Eastern (Bengal) to Western! Moreover, the user has done similar vandalism in multiple articles only in order to promote Western Bengali Guhas. Thanks. ] (]) 08:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*In response to Bishonen's comments, I would like to inform here that Sitush is referring to my response at a time when {{u|Nobita456}}'s sock was driving a discussion and I had filed an SPI! Therefore, I was delaying the discussion in order to eliminate the sock from the same. Sitush has been quoted out of context! Thanks. ] (]) 12:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
On that basis I asked to explain why it should be removed and no answer other than "folk etymology" was given. Yet WP policy clearly states: | |||
*:{{u|Orientls}}, the user has already been blocked for vandalism; I have years of experience in this area and quite sure of what I have mentioned! Thanks. ] (]) 06:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:{{ping|Bishonen}} I have clearly mentioned that I am not sure! But, {{u|Orientls}} seems to be so sure that they have stated that I am 'falsely' accusing him of meatpuppetry! How can you be so sure that there has been no mail exchanges? Orientls, do you think you are God? Regards. ] (]) 06:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by Orientls==== | |||
"An encyclopedic definition is more concerned with encyclopedic knowledge (facts) rather than linguistic concerns." | |||
I find this comment by Ekdalian unpalatable: "The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha." How are you so sure of their caste? I don’t see where they have self-identified as such, and you also accuse them of attempting to project "their caste'" with another one by "vandalising" Misplaced Pages, which is a serious accusation against a new editor. I think an editor of your tenure should be able to recognize what constitutes vandalism because those edits are not vandalism, you should also refrain from speculating about the caste of editors. | |||
I asked for an answer to this and none was given. This pillar policy for the lede was disregarded as if it doesn't exist. Some editors are trying to remove, by force, a long standing community consensus definition in one of the most sensitive articles in the I-P space. | |||
reasoning seems odd, especially when Sitush himself states: "CharlesWain began this discussion. They are not a sock, are they?" , implying that you were opposing changes proposed by an editor who was not a sock by misrepresenting Sitush's comments. I also think canvassing was inappropriate, particularly with its problematic heading, "Kind attention: Bishonen and admins active here." It sounds as if you are trying to recruit people to back you up here. | |||
I did not . Anyone reading what I said there can see that. | |||
Honestly, I’m not surprised by the diffs cited in the report, especially if your conduct at ARE is like this where your edits are under scrutiny. | |||
I have never threatened to revert against consensus. | |||
{{ping|Bishonen}} While the filer himself made it clear that he is not "seeking any topic bans", Ekdalian deserves a topic ban following this . By calling an editor with almost 4k edits a "comparatively new user" and falsely accusing him of "meatpuppetry", Ekdalian has proven he is not capable of editing here without poisoning the well and making personal attacks. ] (]) 03:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I have never claimed my argument was "superior" nor would I presume to be a judge of myself. I pointed to ]: "Consensus is determined by the '''quality of the arguments''' given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Misplaced Pages policy." That's all I said about quality of an argument. | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
I have adhered to Misplaced Pages guidelines diligently throughout the discussions. I only reverted the article to the state it was in before the dispute, until consensus is achieved. | |||
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===Result concerning Ekdalian=== | |||
The "overwhelming rejection" of my argument has been exaggerated beyond compare. , it was said to be "a dozen voices". Some time later , it became "14-15 people". My latest count shows 7 against 4. Where are the 14-15? Why was this said? | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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*I will point out that I was ] by Ekdalian. That said, I'll state that I don't think NXcrypto's diffs are anything much; it's surely a stretch to call them "casting apersions" and "poisoning the well" and the like, especially in the IPA area where the tone is often sharp. The comments by Sitush are a little more concerning, though. ] | ] 10:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
==Alex 19041== | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
=== Request concerning Alex 19041 === | |||
I adhere to the following guideline on achieving consensus: | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement: {{userlinks|Est. 2021}} 16:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested: {{userlinks|Alex 19041}}<p>{{ds/log|Alex 19041}}</p> | |||
:"This does not mean that decisions must be unanimous (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); it is not based on majority voting either. It means, rather, that the decision-making process involves an active effort to reach a solution that addresses as far as possible '''all legitimate concerns''' raised by interested editors." | |||
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I have not seen the slightest attempt to have the most minimal concerns about this addressed. | |||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] & ] | |||
These are the discussions: ] * ] * ] * ]. | |||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it: | |||
They need to be read fully to understand this case. Nothing said here by anyone, including myself, can be taken at face value. To me, they show the process to remove the Hebrew meaning is ill conceived and violates WP policy on the most fundamental levels. No consensus has been achieved to warrant it. I'm willing to be convinced but not this way. Not in this tone. Not with this incivility. Not with this disregard for everything Misplaced Pages stands for. | |||
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I will not respond to the venom spilled here, it speaks for itself. I only ask the case be reviewed thoroughly. --] (]) 20:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: | |||
:'''A few more comments:''' | |||
* ] | |||
:*'''Nableezy:''' There is a world of difference between saying "my argument is stronger" and "my argument is superior". A world of difference in tone and presumptuousness. I have never used the word "superior" in this context. Why is it alright for you to imply your argument is stronger but not for someone else? | |||
:*'''Zero:''' What expert opinion? Nishidani's? He said ''"until my eye caught it some years ago on this page."'' Yet this phrase has been around for nearly 2000 years and saturates sources. It is mentioned nearly everywhere the meaning of the name is referenced. This is expert? | |||
:*I have never accused others of wikilawyering and tendentious arguments because I respect WP guidelines about this being a serious accusation. My only fault is in trying to argue in good faith. When looking at the volume of words Nishidani pours on the discussions (evidenced by the length of his opening statement compared to mine), one wonders why Nishidani's verbosity does not cause these editors "misery" as does mine. Is their misery only due to hearing someone disagree with them? | |||
:*I did not open the discussions on Nishidani's talk page nor on WGFinley's. I reserve the right to answer when someone else starts a discussion and accuses me as Nishidani and Nableezy did. To imply that I was responsible for them is a grave falsity. | |||
:*I have not argued on grounds of politics. Only on relevant cultural status of the city. Nishidani attempted to nearly 10 times and continues to falsely accuse me of politicizing when it is he who does so. I argued repeatedly for the meanings pertaining to the two cultures presiding over the city. | |||
:*There was never a consensus for the change Nableezy made when he did it, which removes the Hebrew meaning and leaves the Arabic. AgadaUrbanit, who , correctly points to the severe POV imbalance favoring only one meaning in the lead. | |||
:*The editors have said my sources are poor and unacceptable, yet Zero admits they are acceptable and uncontested in Etymology. How can they be acceptable in the Etymology section and suddenly become poor and unacceptable in the lede? Especially when the lede is more concerned with broad definitions and not linguistics? These are the types of argumentative runarounds that have been applied here. | |||
:*None of these editors have posted sources supporting their claim of "minority meaning". I was the only one who posted "extensive" sources showing 'Abode of Peace' as the common recognized meaning for Jerusalem. Peter cohen, in his excitement to eviscerate me and find relief for his "misery" states Nishidani posted extensive sources. He did not. The sources he posted are only relative to linguistics and distort the picture as if they are "commonly recognized". They are not. Common recognition is mostly supported by my extensive sources. Nishidani's argument is mostly based on his personal previous lack of knowledge of it. | |||
:* that Nableezy opened the complaint with, and , I've stated why there appears to be a prejudice against this Hebrew language association in this case, driven by Nishidani's declared prejudices against "nationalism" and selective "holy writ", pushing to remove only one meaning for the Hebrew name of this seminal article in I/P area. --] (]) 06:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion concerning Alex 19041=== | |||
Jerusalem is a a city rich with history and conflict, unique and cherished by prominent cultures for their lot in it. Even scholars who decry the violence over it, and have no favor for Israel, . Removing the Hebrew meaning and leaving the Arabic, defies all encyclopedic integrity. Removing both meanings from the lede gravely compromises the article's introduction in that both the Hebrew and Arabic meanings, as they appeared by long-standing community consensus, define what the city is most commonly recognized for. They are both "holy writ" and one cannot make an argument that only one such "holy writ" should be prejudiced. There was never a properly achieved consensus for removal of this information. Arguments were ignored by editors on one side who seemed more than happy to win a fight instead of showing concern for neutrality. I acted only to defend the integrity of Misplaced Pages information against this POV push. --] (]) 06:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by Alex 19041==== | |||
:'''Nableezy:''' What you have done is disregard ], ], ] and ] and repeatedly. Had you and others tried to address my concerns, as I did yours by ] in order to satisfy your '''every''' objection, in a drawn out process which is the proper way to achieve consensus on such sensitive disputes, we would not have this problem. --] (]) 07:19, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
'''TDA:''' You are misinformed and appear to repeat others' arguments without checking facts. I am not insisting on any changes. I am only insisting on maintaining long-standing community consensus until a proper agreement is arrived at for changes that others want to make. I declined "compromises" that removed well sourced information on questionable grounds and were not compromises at all. I ] based on Nishidani's and Jayen's concerns, which was rejected by Nishidani. I have repeatedly stated that I would support a reasonable compromise. Your comment did that 'Abode of Peace" is one of the primary meanings of Jerusalem. You now reverse your position. Please study the facts before making such allegations. --] (]) 07:19, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
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===Result concerning Alex 19041=== | |||
:'''Nishidani's opening statement''', full of links, is framed in a way to distort the contexts everything was said in. His presentation is an egregious misreading of the case. They can only be understood by reading the discussions themselves. These are the links again: ] * ] * ] * ]. | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
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*To recap what's already been said at the initial hearing this got ], it has been identified that Alex19041 is not extended-confirmed, has now been made aware of the 30/500 editing restriction for PIA, has acknowledged that they should not make any edits to the topic, but has not quite acknowledged that they also should not make comments relating to the topic outside of article space. If they can acknowledge that, an IBAN would be unnecessary as they will not be engaging further with the discussion at-issue for some time. If they can't acknowledge that, we'd likely need to escalate to blocks, as there's no reason to expect the IBAN to be observed. Some concern was also raised that Est. 2021's replies to Alex 19041 included personal attacks, although it should be noted that Est. 2021 has made an effort to remove potentially-problematic statements from their prior comments at ARBCOM (sections on their talk page containing similar language have been removed entirely, which is within their purview on a user talk page). <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 16:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''To close my comments''': ] reveals the battleground tone and incivility from the first words Nishidani addressed me with. Many of his first comments are laden with personal remarks about my understanding and abilities rather than simply arguing content. This set the tone for everything to follow and nothing I said would matter anymore. I asked Nishidani repeatedly to stop making such remarks, to no avail. Here are only a few of them: | |||
*(came here from the ill-fated ArbCom case request). I agree with Rosguill. Some assurance from Alex 19041 and from Est. 2021 that they will leave the problematic edits behind would be good.] (]) 21:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*''("devastating incomprehension") * ("What on earth do you mean by 'earlier incarnations'? That is meaningless.") * {"You do not understand the simplest issues of historical linguistics") * ("You do not understand the issues") * ("trying to edit on an area you know little about") * ("your opinion on a technical issue you are totally unfamiliar with.") * ("your comprehensive lack of understanding") * ("Just back off") * ("you should move on to blogging elsewhere").'' | |||
*I agree that the reported user needs to show some understanding that as a non-EC user, they need to leave this ] alone ''across all namespaces''. However, sanctions are for serious, ongoing problems, three unwelcome talk page posts made over the course of an hour does not strike me as sufficient cause for a formal iban. If there's more to it than that, it needs to be made clear, with diffs. ] ] 21:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
For all of Nishidani's self-professed superiority in linguistics, it turned out that much of his argument was based on his lack of previous knowledge of the term, which has been around for 2 millennia and prevalent everywhere in sources. To assault my knowledge on that basis reveals a serious behavioral issue. All my sources were dismissed categorically in the beginning, without sound reason for their context, yet the primary ones are in the article itself and have never been contested there. Something started out very wrong here. --] (]) 08:31, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
==]-related pages== | |||
:'''Nableezy:''' Read everything I've said to see that I did not ever base my view of consensus on "quality of argument" alone, as you say. It was only one of my points, next to "majority does not..." and "...addressing all concerns". It is hard to AGF when you state such falsities, while the record clearly shows otherwise. Either read more carefully or desist from egregious misrepresentations. --] (]) 10:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small> | |||
===Request concerning ]-related pages=== | |||
'''Johnuniq:''' You disregard everything else in this dispute and base your appraisal of me on a few select comments. Read how this started and how it continued and you might understand my statement to Nishidani better. I don't think you will, seeing how you're going to extreme lengths to support his uncivil behavior from the start. It is not that "some people" like that meaning, as your weasel definition states. Scholarly sources support it as the common meaning. There's a world of difference between your one-sided approach to "mediation" and "dismissal" of sources - and between the whole body of facts. --] (]) 10:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Beeblebrox}} 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|]-related pages}}<p>{{ds/log|]-related pages}}</p> | |||
:'''Comments by Nableezy''' as if he answered my question about linguistics vs. definition are again misleading distortions. His answer suggests I throw out linguistics when no such thing was implied. There exists a linguistic basis for the common meaning "Abode of Peace" which is dismissed here as "wrong" or "folk". What matters for the encyclopedia is support in scholarly sources, which exists abundantly. The few that say it is entirely "wrong" are themselves the minority. There is a natural dispute for such an ancient name but the meaning has been cemented in modern culture and for 2 millennia. It is referenced by most sources. It is being denied by these editors against all evidence. This entire case, most everything they are saying, is one distortion of the facts after the other. --] (]) 13:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning MichaelNetzer==== | |||
=====Comment by Peter Cohen===== | |||
I am aware of at least two other people who were talking about filing an AE on this subject. No doubt they will reveal themselves here. | |||
Of far more interest to me than the three reverts which Nableezy has identified is the tendency of MN to argue ''ad nauseam'' and the tendentiousness of what he says while he is arguing. Both are exampled at ] which just goes on and on and on with one person arguing against several. Nishidani has produced in that thread an extensive number of references from reliable etymological sources yet MN insists on giving undue weight to an ill-founded folk-etymology by having it in the first sentence. Then when I make my on the subject which has a perfectly clear explanation, he on my talk page, accusing me of edit-warring and asks me to self-revert, as if he wasn't edit-warring. After all, he could not revert me himself because he had already used his 1RR for the day in that very edit war. | |||
I decided to archive that thread. After all I have seen him at work in various tl;dr threads at ] and ] where he is equally long-winded and equally tendentious in Wiki-lawyering about the meaning of some perfectly clearly written text in a guideline which was created at Arbcom's instigation to try and stop this sort of nonsense. | |||
Dear admins, please remember that tendentious editing is one of the grounds under which sanctions can be applied and put us all out of our misery.--] (]) 01:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by The Devil's Advocate===== | |||
Seems to be a pretty clear-cut case of edit-warring. In one case just over 31 hours elapse between reverts by Netzer with the last instance seeing just 55 hours elapse before Netzer reverted again. Maybe not close enough to still be considered a violation of 1RR, but still clearly repeatedly reverting to the '''exact same''' version each time in a very short period. | |||
A broader issue concerning this case is that I have seen a similar dispute arise over the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article. That case was the reverse where an editor insisted on the lede "unfairly" excluding an Arab name for the topic in the lede, similar to how this case focuses on "unfairly" excluding the Hebrew meaning of the topic's name in the lede.--] (]) 05:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
@Zero You are correct that I do not support his position. It seems like many other editors I am just another person who tried to point out what the facts on the matter are, that they did not support the ''specific'' change Netzer wanted, suggested a middle ground to resolve the dispute, only to have Netzer insist on the exact same change he has been insisting on for some time. He seems to be quite insistent on rejecting all compromises or perhaps just thinks compromise means everyone taking his position. Maybe there is a legitimate concern as it relates to inclusion of different translations when it is relevant to a dispute over territory, but edit-warring and ] are not the way to go about resolving it.--] (]) 05:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
@Michael No, I never "implied" that I supported your specific contention that "Abode of Peace" is the most common meaning. I suggested that "city of peace" may be a ''possible'' translation, though ''not considered the most likely''. My comment even specifically said that there was nothing in the source directly backing your desired wording. You interpreting that as support of your specific position and presenting it as supporting your position without even asking me if I did support your position is insulting.--] (]) 17:47, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Zero0000===== | |||
MichaelNetzer is one of the most disruptive editors to come to the I-P area in recent months. He came with a profound ignorance of the subject combined with a pathological inability to admit that anyone else might be right. His style is to endlessly weave and duck, repeating his opinions over and over (and over and over), falsely claiming support from other editors for his views when in fact he hardly gets any support. He has hardly a clue about what a reliable source is. All the time he is accusing everyone of malicious motives while being mortally offended if anyone dare suggest he is not an angel from heaven. This business of the lede of ] could have been solved in 30 minutes to the satisfaction of all parties if MichaelNetzer wasn't around, but thanks to him it has turned into a monumental waste of time with no end in sight. This isn't the first time his contribution has been of this nature; he should have been topic-banned for his earlier strenuous attempt to break ] by repeatedly violating it while posting reams of sophistry about it. (Sorry for not adding diffs, it is 2am in my part of the world so that will have to wait until tomorrow). ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:20, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
Regarding the lack of an ARBIA warning, the purpose of such a warning is to make sure that the receiver is aware of the arbitration ruling and the consequences of breaking it. Since MichaelNetzer has repeatedly commented on other cases on this very page, it is completely impossible that he was unaware of what was going on. It has been recognized for many years on all dispute resolution pages that sufficiently experienced editors don't need to be warned. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
As usual, MichaelNetzer's comments here are deceptive and cannot be understood by anyone who hasn't watched the whole saga. Key points: | |||
# '''Nobody''' has argued that "Abode of Peace" and similar don't belong in the article, and nobody has tried to remove it. Nor does anyone deny that it is popular and there are sources which support it. The problem is that the consensus of specialist experts is that the real meaning is something else. | |||
# The only real issue is the first sentence of the article. MichaelNetzer wants it to say "Abode of Peace" with no qualification and no alternatives (a clear violation of ] as well as misleading). He has refused to accept any other possibilities, which included (a) putting "Abode of Peace" as a popular interpretation alongside the scientific interpretation, (b) leaving the question of the meaning for later in the article. Either (a) or (b) would be acceptable to the great majority of people who commented. | |||
# MichaelNetzer claims that three other editors support him. This is a fine illustration of MichaelNetzer's style. Of those claimed in support, JN466 but supports one of the alternatives that MichaelNetzer refuses to accept. Piz d'Es-Cha , which MichaelNetzer also refuses. The Devil's Advocate has not supported MichaelNetzer's version of the lede either, as far as I can determine <s>(correct me if I'm wrong)</s>. This is what counts as "consensus" in MichaelNetzer's view. | |||
]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Nishidani===== | |||
The problem is a larger one than a simple IR editwarring infraction- It's behavioural. | |||
'''Background''' (Content issue, which is not in discussion here, but the behaviour associated with it by one editor) | |||
Open any Hebrew dictionary and under יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim you get the meaning, ‘Jerusalem’, not anything else (‘abode of peace’ etc,.) (Karl Feyerabend, ''A complete Hebrew-English pocket-dictionary to the Old Testament,'' Langenscheidt nd. p.135 col.1) | |||
*(1) The general etymology given as probable by semitic specialists for this urban toponym is: . Popular, rabbinic, or folk or false etymologies abound; there are several. Google and the results are that ‘abode of peace’ is not the most popular. Michael has threatened to revert, however, anyone who alters this, because of an ostensible historic consensus. | |||
*(2) Almost all city articles I have examined, in the Near East and the world, do not have a meaning or etymology in the lead. Jerusalem is anomalous, and old lead was, also, wrong in glossing the city’s name to mean ‘abode of peace’ when the source, Stephen Binz, says the meaning originally was 'Foundation of Shalem'. | |||
*(3) 23 days ago I raised the problem. Three weeks over several pages of arguing have produced an industrial quantity of argument, with Michael virtually alone in insisting that the false meaning ‘abode of peace’ be retained. Compromises have been suggested, and accepted. He has accepted none. Almost 20 people have commented on aspects of the discussion. As Zero says, commonsense and respect for process would have resolved this in 30 minutes, without three weeks of indeterminate and exhausting wikilawyering. | |||
*(4) After it was apparent Michael has a very unsure grasp of linguistics and appeared incapable of understanding anything technical, I suggested several times he desist from arguing on an issue he misunderstands. He takes that as a personal attack. | |||
*(a)From the outset Michael admitted clearly his support for a false or folk meaning reflected political interests. He insists on abode of peace because | |||
<blockquote> </blockquote> | |||
He repeated this (also dubious as ]) a week later, he dismissed Christian folk meanings on similar political ground: | |||
<blockquote> (on both points he is drastically wrong, by the way, and confuses Arabic with Muslim Arabs, ignoring Christian Arabs, etc.). </blockquote> | |||
He was reminded that (]) | |||
*He refuses compromises by third parties (]), having successively rejected mediations by *], ], ] and ] the last three at the ]. | |||
*] suggested a compromise , . I accepted that, and it was compatible with Zero000’s position. Michael refused to budge. 10 days had passed, 7 of intensive analysis, and Michael was alone against a compromise position supported by 3.(12 December) | |||
*The problem is not simply IR. At ], Michael began to try to change , by wikilawyering Judea and Samaria, in order to establish a precedent for the unrestricted use of those terms in the West Bank. The argument was exhaustive, he appealed to at IPCOL , and when that fails to produce the desired result, he went to . He hoped indeed that an ARBPIA3 be formally convoked to reexamine the whole issue. | |||
*Michael consistently dismisses the views of those who disagree with him as . commanded by Nableezy, which, empowered by AE leniency, overlords and intimates nice people, threatens editing in the I/P area, and must be dealt with. | |||
*] | |||
He hasn’t the faintest notion of what RS means. . , he goes on undaunted and and on admin pages with minor alterations as in accordance with ]. | |||
*] | |||
He cites it but no one can understand why he appears not to have read it, since he argues that a lone hold-out impedes the unanimity required, unanimity meaning everyone changes sides and accepts his unique position. | |||
*] | |||
He constantly misconstrues simple sentences, and makes insidious inferences from his flawed interpretation of them. Thus he wrote challenging my ]. Indeed, he said my putative prejudices were a threat to what he thought was the core of Judaism itself, if that is what he means by the extraordinary suggestion my presence and prejudices on this area of[REDACTED] threaten ''to erase most knowledge of a civilization entrenched in collective nationalism.'' At the outset he hinted he reads me as, well, anti-semitic, which is what his remark implies. It didn’t help with his rabbit-out-of-the-hat misprision about my putative ‘disdain for "holy writ".’ Users ] and ] either , or . Nothing doing. I don't mind insults. But Michael's use of them shows he has a problem. | |||
Michael interprets editorial disagreements as a form of personal attack | |||
. | |||
*] | |||
He went to the ] . A lengthy recycling of the same poorly substantiated arguments there involved several more, independent observers and their responses. The result was Michael refused the several compromises, similar to Oncenawhile’s offered by respectively Jayen, FCSundae and FormerIP. He then went to ]’s page and tried to restart the argument there, to my page, and to ]’s page. | |||
*I told Michael to desist from his attacks. ] ended the thread there with . I can see no edit there by anyone else than Michael which could be described as aggressive. | |||
*]. | |||
He stacks his vote score by listing people who effectively voted against him. When informed of the errors, he refuses, except for one instance where he noted my protest that one vote for the consensual majority position was improper, to change his own tally. | |||
on the basis of Jayen’s first comment . After discussion, Jayen modified his initial view towards a compromise , where he writes “So you could say 'Foundation of ]'(?), often interpreted as 'abode of peace'", or something of that ilk.” and then approved of my suggestions for compromise, saying in his edit summary ‘sounds good’ | |||
He also added ], who removed his name from it, declaring himself neutral. The support of two others is doubtful. The list really should have only Michael and perhaps one other on it, against 7 supporters for an edit which will remove the anomaly and error in the lead. I.e. the solution 30 minutes of commonsense could have agreed to. This fiction of a disputed consensus was what enabled him to edit war in the three reverts Nableezy outlined above. | |||
*Michael has developed a ] mentality that transforms efficient editing into a nightmare of dealing with attrition based on trivia, misunderstanding, and unfounded suspicions of personal or cultural or religious or ethnic enmity.] (]) 18:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:]. | |||
all show Michael thoroughly familiar with the ARBPIA issues, since he has minutely examined and challenged them, and participated on many pages where these protocols were discussed. ] (]) 20:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::Michael now writes:'I did not . Anyone reading what I said there can see that.' | |||
::<blockquote> (bias towards holy writ(!!) must mean its opposite:'bias against holy writ). That editorial opposition to nationalism in[REDACTED] must be subject to automatic reverts reveals Michael's clear position as a nationalist POV editor.</blockquote> | |||
::<blockquote></blockquote> | |||
::<blockquote></blockquote> | |||
::A majority opinion existed when he made these remarks, whose tone was peremptory in asserting frequently he would revert unless his unique personal conditions were satisfied.(]). ] (]) 21:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Michael, this is not the place to repeat content arguments. Arbs needn't be required to wade through the massive archives of sheer chat and equivocation. The central fact is that a simple solution was readily available and that even though about 20 people watched, advised, commented or voted in what was the thankless task of following these huge meanderings, you refused to listen. You challenged virtually everyone to the bitter end, which is unfortunately this. (ps. 'abode of peace' googles low or middle in the ranks of common 'meanings'. What one community thinks familiar, another may ignore (that's why we have ]). I occasionally heard as a boy 'Visio pacis'/vision of peace,etc., (which was '''the predominant etymology for Jerusalem in Western civilization''' for almost one and a half millenia,) and encountered the scholarly etymologies as a young man at University).] (]) 07:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::::Since you still complain of my 'prejudices against nationalism', Michael, and appear to have identified your own position as one of defending 'the entrenched nationalism of a civilization', you'd better read policies like ] and its warnings against 'nationalist issues'. Our differences are summed up there. I don't think editors with a mission to entrench nationalism should be editing here.] (]) 08:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Jiujitsuguy===== | |||
I have reviewed ]'s talk page as well as the ARBPIA logs and it appears that he was never issued an ARBPIA warning (unless I missed something). If this is indeed the case, protocol would mandate the issuance of such a warning to the account before a sanction (if any is warranted) could be imposed.--] (]) 19:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
:I cut and pasted the relevant section from the page: | |||
:*Standard discretionary sanctions | |||
6) All Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted, are placed under discretionary sanctions. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, '''after an initial warning'''. (Emphasis added by me) | |||
Passed 14 to 0 by motion, 14:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)--] (]) 19:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
::@Nableezy: I find it amazing ] that you can remember an event that occurred over two years ago within seconds of my post but you are “absent minded” or had a “momentary loss of memory” when it comes to your own sanction that was imposed barely a week prior. Keep burying yourself.--] (]) 20:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
=====Comment by Johnuniq===== | |||
I encountered ] at an unrelated article (]), and occasionally scan his talk page, but have not been involved with any P-I issues. I was amazed to see a claim on his talk page that Nishidani had made a statement that "is enough to block users from editing areas relating to their prejudice" (i.e. Nishidani should not edit P-I topics due to a prejudice) ({{diff|User talk:Nishidani|prev|466793088|01:42, 20 December 2011 by MichaelNetzer}}). I have no idea what perspective Nishidani has on P-I matters, so while I was skeptical of the claim that he had a blatant prejudice I am sufficiently open minded to consider that he might have a problem, so I investigated the background to MichaelNetzer's comment. I then responded and engaged in a discussion that leads me to believe that MichaelNetzer should not be editing any controversial topics, and that he has violated ] (AGF, NPOV, CIVIL, NPA). | |||
My reasons for these conclusions are that MichaelNetzer has grossly misinterpreted some comments made by Nishidani, and maintained those gross misinterpretations with no hint of compromise even after the errors were explained. Following the diffs is too confusing, so I will merely outline the issues which can be seen in the wall of text at ] ({{oldid|User talk:Nishidani#Notes|467833161|permalink}}): Nishidani made a comment at DRN that included: "{{xt|I'm a pagan, so I have no horse in the race. I dislike or rather have deep suspicions about feelings of nationalism, esp. collective, that rise above the love of a landscape, food, and language. These are the prejudices I bring to edits.}}" ({{diff|Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard|prev|466666201|diff}}). MichaelNetzer responded (link above) with a claim that this statement shows Nishidani has a prejudice . I responded that "{{xt|Nishidani of course is saying he has '''no prejudices''' other than that NPOV should be observed}}". MichaelNetzer's reply switched to '{{xt|"I'm a pagan, so I have no horse in the race" means the editor has a "pagan horse" in the race}}'. That interpretation is simply absurd so I realized that it would not be fruitful to further explain the meaning of Nishidani's clear statement, so I switched to the more substantive issue of how to interact with an editor (Nishidani) who disputes an edit (Jerusalem means "abode of peace")—my attempts failed. | |||
While the gross misinterpretations made by MichaelNetzer at Nishidani's talk could be overlooked as just another event at Misplaced Pages, they demonstrate that it is not possible to rely on MichaelNetzer's judgment about what a source says—when a couple of obvious errors are visible, it is likely there are many more. | |||
Regarding the content issue of whether the word "Jerusalem" means "Abode of Peace": I gather that no one disputes that there are many sources containing that ''claim''—the point is, that scholarly sources show the claim is ''not'' correct, it is only that some people like to refer to the city as "Abode of Peace". ] (]) 10:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning MichaelNetzer=== | |||
<!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' | |||
==Esoglou== | |||
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' | |||
===Request concerning Esoglou=== | |||
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : –] (] ⋅ ]) 06:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Esoglou}} | |||
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | <!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | ||
;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | ;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: ] | ||
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | <!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced ---> | ||
I ''think'' this is the right place to ask for this? Requesting an expansion of ] to cover all articles related to ], as it has unfortunately become a political hot-button issue as the POTUS made it a prioroty on his first day back in office to sign an executive order to revert the name of the mountain back to "Mt. McKinley". | |||
; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it : | |||
<!-- Supply diffs as evidence here, and explain why they require arbitration enforcement. Any allegation not supported by a diff is usually disregarded. You may also link to an archived version of long discussions instead of supplying very many diffs. --> | |||
In the past twenty-four hours there has been heavy editing/disruption in articles and on related talk pages and protection has been needed at several. ] was probably hit hardest, but ] got some too, as has ], which is explicitly not even part of the executive order. I wouldn't be surprised if the same issue is happening in ] related articles, but haven't checked for myself. ] ] 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
# inserts information about Joe Biden cited to LifeSiteNews, which is consistently rejected at RSN; information about Rudy Giuliani cited to anti-Giuliani press release | |||
# inserts information about Nancy Pelosi cited to anti-Pelosi press releases; information on Joe Biden cited to LifeSiteNews, which is consistently rejected at RSN | |||
# inserts information about Kathleen Sebelius cited to an anti-Sebelius press release from an organization which campaigns against Sebelius | |||
# inserts information about Kathleen Sebelius cited to an anti-Sebelius press release from an organization which campaigns against Sebelius | |||
# inserts information about Kathleen Sebelius cited to an anti-Sebelius press release from an organization which campaigns against Sebelius | |||
# inserts extensive section about Nancy Pelosi sourced almost entirely to anti-Pelosi press releases | |||
:Yeah, just checked Gulf of Mexico. 28 new talk page sections in the past day, was already ECP protected two weeks ago per ]. | |||
Inserting claims about living people cited to these totally unsuitable sources is a BLP violation, contradicting the ArbCom sanction which states that editors are to obey all regular site policies. Note that Esoglou falsely claims in the citation template that the is a news story in the ''National Catholic Register''; following the link shows that it's actually an ] press release from Christian Newswire, a right-wing press release service. | |||
:I kinda think a single admin could do this, but I am editorially involved and probably slightly too infuriated to be objective. ] ] 22:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks for the replies, that's kind of what I thought, but again didn't want to act on it as I'm editorially involved. ] ] 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
The recent BLP violations are the proximate cause of this report, but the user also has a persistent and ongoing problem with original research in abortion-related articles that goes back as far as I've worked with him, and I would be remiss in not mentioning it. A selection: | |||
<!-- Add any further comment here --> | |||
# in a paragraph about the punishment for abortion imposed in early Christianity, inserts information about the punishment for other sins, cited to sources that don't mention abortion, in an attempt to prove that abortion was worse than other sins | |||
# in a paragraph about the punishment for abortion imposed in early Christianity, inserts information about the punishment for other sins, cited to sources that don't mention abortion, in an attempt to prove that abortion was worse than other sins; inserts information about ancient Greece and Rome, cited to sources that do not mention Christianity, in an attempt to provide "context" for Christian views on abortion | |||
# inserts information about ancient Greece and Rome into an article on early Christianity and abortion, saying that it provides context; sources do not mention Christianity | |||
# in a paragraph about the punishment for abortion imposed in early Christianity, inserts information about the punishment for other sins, cited to sources that don't mention abortion, in an attempt to prove that abortion was worse than other sins | |||
# in a paragraph about the punishment for abortion imposed in early Christianity, inserts information about the punishment for other sins, cited to sources that don't mention abortion, in an attempt to prove that abortion was worse than other sins (later to absolutely no effect) | |||
# inserts his own interpretation of a primary-source document, dismissing the cited secondary source as "some writers have interpreted" (same content, but even more blatant OR phrasing to be found in edit of 11 September listed below) | |||
# inserts information about ancient Greek and Roman philosophy into an article on early Christianity and abortion, saying that it is necessary to give context; sources do not mention Christianity; tries to synthesize further with "in spite of" | |||
# inserts information about ancient Greek and Roman philosophy into an article on early Christianity and abortion, saying that it is necessary to give context; sources do not mention Christianity; tries to synthesize further with "in spite of" | |||
# inserts information about ancient Roman philosophy/law into an article on early Christianity and abortion; sources do not say that this affected Christian thought or practice | |||
# I can best illustrate by quoting from Esoglou's edit: "The authors of one book have interpreted this as 'Pius IX declared all direct abortions homicide',, but the document merely declared that those who procured an effective abortion incurred excommunication reserved to bishops or ordinaries." | |||
# inserts a phrase claiming that Catholic opinion on abortion differs from the official church view chiefly with regard to legalization; none of the cited sources in the section being summarized make any mention of any difference between views on morality and views on legality | |||
# inserts a sentence saying that "automatic excommunication" "remains" in force as an explanation for why pro-choice Mexican politicians were said to be excommunicated in 2007; cited source is the canon law about ''having'' an abortion and hasn't been revised in decades, and for all these reasons obviously makes no reference to these politicians | |||
# inserts a sentence saying that "automatic excommunication" "remains" in force as an explanation for why pro-choice Mexican politicians were said to be excommunicated in 2007; cited source is the canon law about ''having'' an abortion and hasn't been revised in decades, and for all these reasons obviously makes no reference to these politicians | |||
# inserts information which he claims is the cause of several specific listed incidents relating to politicians and abortion, cited to a source which mentions neither politicians (in the specific or in the general) nor abortion | |||
# bizarre original analysis of the Latin grammar of a paragraph in canon law - which paragraph incidentally, at this time in the article history, is only connected to the subject by a self-published source from an anti-abortion organization, but that's more of an RS issue | |||
# engages in original analysis of sources by writing about what they ''don't'' say, using the fact that sources don't mention bishops X and Y citing a paragraph in canon law as grounds for suggesting that they don't think that it applies | |||
# engages in original analysis of sources by writing about what they ''don't'' say; for example, uses the fact that sources don't mention certain Catholic authorities citing a particular canon as grounds for writing that they don't believe it applies. Even worse, writes that Cardinal Egan did not order certain politicians to be barred from communion over their pro-choice leanings; not only does the source not say this, the source actually writes about Egan and these politicians to illustrate the idea that the Roman Catholic Church attitude to pro-choice politicians and communion is ''harsher'' than in the past, in contrast to Esoglou's spin which wishes to portray the incident as an act of leniency | |||
# more writing about what sources don't say (second-to-last added paragraph) | |||
# more writing about what sources don't say | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
This editor has also had, and continues to have, problems with RS, with plagiarism, and with NPOV (incl. WEIGHT). Those issues, while serious, are (in my opinion, though others may well disagree) sliiiightly less prevalent in his edits than original research, and if they weren't accompanied by the BLP and persistent OR issues miiiight not deserve sanction on their own, but I can provide diffs of those as well if people would like. | |||
===Discussion concerning ]-related pages=== | |||
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 ] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.<br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small> | |||
====Statement by ]-related pages==== | |||
; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) : | |||
<!-- Many arbitration remedies require a prior warning before sanctions may be imposed. Link to the warning here. --> | |||
No warnings from administrators required by the sanction, but I've warned the user about the BLP violations on the and on his , as well as explaining in my edit summaries removing the content why it was objectionable. He's also been warned about the original research and the other stuff, and I can dig up those warnings too if you'd like. | |||
====Statement by Isabelle==== | |||
; Additional comments by editor filing complaint : | |||
Since I've protected Denali's talk page, I will comment here. I agree that we will be seeing serious issues in the coming month, considering all the shit the new president is throwing at the wall, but I believe the administrators are well equip to deal with this at the moment. I believe {{u|Valereee}} has protected the Gulf of Mexico's talk page, and I've dealt with Mount Denali's. We might need to apply more extensive protection during this coming month to stop the vandals, but current tools will do just fine. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 23:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Esoglou claims that he didn't add an anti-Sebelius press release. I don't know whether this is intentional deception that goes along with his falsely claiming that it's a news story from the ''National Catholic Register'', or if he got the citations from somewhere else and copy-pasted them in. If the former, he's deliberately adding sources that violate ]. If the latter, he obviously hasn't read the sources he himself is citing, because the press release has ''the name of the press release service'' in bold letters at the top. Adding sources without reading them, and then repeatedly restoring them—still without reading them—after they are challenged, demonstrates a fundamental ] issue that should preclude him from editing in a heavily sanctioned topic area. The continual addition of original research, and repeated ] on the subject thereof, likewise demonstrates a lack of interest in site policies that some might let slide elsewhere, but that violate sanction 3 of the abortion arb case. | |||
====Statement by Valereee==== | |||
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : | |||
Pinged here: yes, I've semi'd Talk:Gulf of Mexico, yesterday for 24 hours, today for another 31. I dislike protecting a talk, but it was a burden for editors working there. ] (]) 23:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:100+ edits today on the article, which is EC protected. I feel like that's a lot. ] (]) 23:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
====Statement by (username)==== | |||
<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. ---> | |||
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. --> | |||
=== |
===Result concerning ]-related pages=== | ||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.'' | |||
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. --> | |||
====Statement by Esoglou==== | |||
*<!-- | |||
Do I have respond to each of these points? Perhaps its enough to refer to and ]. ] (]) 09:37, 26 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
====Comments by others about the request concerning Esoglou==== | |||
--><span id="Est._2021:1737475502593:WikipediaFTTCLNArbitration/Requests/Enforcement" class="FTTCmt">— ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 16:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
:@]: AMPOL already covers "Post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed". I think that "broadly construed" would include Denali and Gulf of Mexico in the current moment. In any event, I think you'd want to go to ARCA, not here, for an amendment. ] (]/]) 22:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Result concerning Esoglou=== | |||
::Also, ] is already ECP and ] has semi-protection. There's no protection on ], but I'm not seeing anything in the page history that would justify it.l ] (]/]) 22:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.--> | |||
*AE couldn't expand the scope of an existing CT designation; only ArbCom could do that. But I don't think we need to. If the disruption is related to a current American politics controversy, that's clearly related to "post-1992 politics of the United States", and so is ''already'' in scope of the existing CT designation. So, I'd say just treat it as such. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 22:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.'' |
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שלומית ליר
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning שלומית ליר
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Smallangryplanet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- שלומית ליר (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation of how these edits violate it
ShlomitLir (שלומית ליר) created their account back in 2014. The breakdown of their edits is as follows:
- 2014 to 2016: no edits.
- 2017 to 2019: 1 edit per year. None related to PIA.
- 2022: 7 edits. Mostly in their userspace.
- 2023: 21 edits. Again, mostly in their userspace. Made two edits in the talk page of Palestinian genocide accusation complaining about its content and calling it “blatant pro-Hamas propaganda”.
- 2024: Started editing after a 10 month break at the end of October.
- Made 51 edits in October and 81 edits in November (copyedits, adding links, minor edits).
- In December, that number rose up to almost 400, including 116 in December 6 alone and 98 in December 7. Became ECR that day.
- Immediately switched to editing in PIA, namely in the Battle of Sderot article where they changed the infobox picture with an unclear image with a dubious caption, and removed a template without providing a reason why.
- They also edited the Use of human shields by Hamas article, adding another image with a caption not supported by the source (replaced by yet another image with a contextless caption when the previous image was removed) and WP:UNDUE content in the lead.
- they also voted in the second AfD for Calls for the destruction of Israel despite never having interacted with that article or its previous AfD. They have barely surpassed 500 edits, but the gaming is obvious, highlighted by the sudden switch to editing in PIA.
More importantly, there's the issue of POV pushing. I came across this article authored by them on Ynet, once again complaining about what they perceive as an anti Israeli bias on Misplaced Pages. They have also authored a report for the World Jewish Congress covering the same topic. The report can be seen in full here. I think that someone with this clear POV agenda shouldn't be near the topic.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 2023-04-05 and re-iterated on 2024-11-25 (see the system log linked to above).
- Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 2024-12-18 by Femke (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Adding some additional comments on 2025-01-16: On top of POV issues, the user has a number of tweets that appear to be a clear admission of gaming, implicit canvassing, creating and sharing lists of potential "most biased articles", and clearly calling for specific edits. They've also been cited as coordinating an off-wiki coordination hub for editing Misplaced Pages. If this - combined with the tweets, the forms, the op-ed and the report to the WJC, all under this user's name (that they also use to edit Misplaced Pages - this is not outing) isn't a clear cut case of canvassing, I don't know what is. Smallangryplanet (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Adding some more comments on 2025-01-22: The user in question says that they have been on[REDACTED] for years – and so surely aware of what does and does not count as canvassing. As recently as last month they were advising users on Hebrew Misplaced Pages as to how best to get their edit counts up, as well as promoting the "most biased articles" survey I've already mentioned. I understand that we are always meant to WP:AGF, but we are looking at a situation in which a user (1) has extensive experience with Misplaced Pages and (2) is encouraging people, subtly and not so subtly to do things that are against our policies. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notification diff
Discussion concerning שלומית ליר
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by שלומית ליר
I believe contents of this filing to be in clear policy violation and have reached out to the arbitration committee for further clarification before commenting further.שלומית ליר (talk) 14:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was given clarification from an admin regarding my concerns and will now be drafting a response. Thank you for your patience. שלומית ליר (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
First and foremost, I value accuracy and transparency and am fully prepared to address any verified errors or missteps. My contributions are made in good faith, with only the intention of supporting Misplaced Pages’s mission. I am a veteran editor on Hebrew wiki, yet am learning to appreciate the sometimes stark differences in rules in this section, so am doing my very best to keep up to speed and abide fully as I edit further here.
As a longtime editor on another wiki who finally decided this year to match pace on English wiki, I strenuously reject any accusations of EC gaming when a passing glance on my global log will confirm I have not radically altered my editing pace nor article focus. In regards to NPOV concerns, I will defer to the numerous comments below affirming that there is no policy violation by having an opinion, onsite or off, and must register mild complaint that NPOV accusations are being leveled here without any policy violation having been affirmed on any of these individual contributions.
While contributions observed superficially (and without clear context of edit conversation and interaction with other editors) may appear to be agenda oriented, if I were granted more word counts, I would happily highlight the context of most edits made to make clear I was pushing back against previous bias efforts (past and present) by editors (including a number on the precipice of sanction in PIA5). Perhaps it would have been wiser to report what I felt was POV editing behavior instead of pushing back, but I only believed my efforts were to restore and preserve article balance, not disrupt it.
I am grateful for the admin guidance received so far and appreciate being better informed about certain grey areas. I meant no intention to remotely approach anything resembling canvassing and believed the commentary was allowable (most especially since it was on a proceeding I was neither participating in, nor linking out to). I understand now that this may be perceived as “call to action” which was not remotely the intent, most especially to an audience that is mostly academic and, to the best of my knowledge, does not edit Misplaced Pages. (I also humbly must point out that no report was made indicating any increase in activity to suggest editors had been canvassed). I have now been well appraised and will take great care and caution to ensure no further off-site commentary remotely approaches such this territory of concern. If there are any questions or doubts in the future, I will seek future guidance from admins before venturing into potentially questionable territory. שלומית ליר (talk) 01:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Thebiguglyalien
This is the first ARBPIA report since the proposed decision was posted at ARBPIA5 and it's specifically a matter of POV pushing, responding admins should be aware of the "AE topic bans" remedy. The committee is discussing whether to implement a remedy stating that admins at AE are "empowered and encouraged to consider a topic ban" purely for biased editing. So far, the argument against is that it's redundant because AE admins are already supposed to do this. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2024-03-29/Special_report
Statement by Selfstudier
To the extent that it is relevant, the WJC report was discussed at Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-03-29/Special report. Selfstudier (talk) 11:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint (2)
I would to like to raise this 9 December 2024 edit at Battle of Sderot, where there had been an existing unsourced paragraph (On the morning of October 7, a tour minibus...
) that שלומית ליר added a reference to (archive 1 / archive 2) from the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation. The reference is relevant, but I believe it may not verify every detail in the Battle of Sderot paragraph (e.g. "Netivot", "Holocaust survivors"). The reference contains a short paragraph of text and a video that is 4:21 long. I can't watch the video in the reference, but I believe it is this same YouTube video that is 4:20 long which contains the same screenshot as the reference, on the same topic. Most of the video is an interview of the daughter of a dead victim who was on the bus (the daughter had been on the phone with the victim), except for 1:58 to 2:13 which appears to be a quote from the bus driver. The publisher themselves do not have too much reporting in their own voice (on the video), yet this reference was used to cite a paragraph entirely stated in Wikivoice. No attribution was made to the relative or the bus driver, or to the publisher. I can't be totally sure though, due to unfamiliarity with Hebrew. starship.paint (talk / cont) 13:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielx
@Arcticocean: I don't really see how NPOV can be read as requiring edits which support both sides of a controversy. Our content policies don't impose any positive duties; they only tell us what not to do. The text of the policy doesn't support the notion that a pattern of edits could be in violation, even if no particular edit is in violation.
In principle, such a pattern of edits could violate the UCoC policy, but I don't believe this board has ever enforced it. If it were to be enforced, I think it should be for more serious violations like the double standards that e.g. this attempted to demonstrate, rather than mere opinion-driven editing which applies to the vast majority of CTOP editors. — xDanielx /C\ 03:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Hemiauchenia
This user has engaged in off-wiki canvassing regarding the IP conflict. Take the following recent tweet from the 12 January permanent archive
For posterity in case it is deleted it contains the following remarks:
If you can't handle the facts, just delete them Propaganda on @Misplaced Pages includes targeting Israel, demonizing it, and erasing inconvenient truths, from falsifying war outcomes to deleting Israeli inventions and attempting to erase the reality of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Along with this is a screenshot of the current AfD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian suicide attacks. People are of course allowed to be caustic about Misplaced Pages off-wiki, but calling out a specific AfD with highly charged rhetoric, essentially inciting canvassing seems out of line. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:05, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For those concerned that this might be outing, שלומית ליר is very open about their real life identity on their userpage. See (archived). If you reveal your real identity on Misplaced Pages, your tweets about Misplaced Pages on your Twitter account connected to your real-life identity are fair game to mention. There's also reverse confirmation in this tweet . Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Cdjp1
As we seem to be ok to pull evidence from the statements of the editor in question, they have also commented more recently about running interference on Misplaced Pages (archive) in response to a question of if Misplaced Pages can be "saved". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
It has been several days. Perhaps שלומית ליר could clarify whether their belief about the way Misplaced Pages works turned out to be a true belief or a false belief so that this report can progress. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Vice regent
I'm satisfied by שלומית ליר's above explanation regarding canvassing. People with bad canvassing intentions don't reveal their identity. VR (Please ping on reply) 04:19, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning שלומית ליר
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Users are allowed to have a POV - it's a rare user indeed who edits a contentious topic without having some strong opinions about it. For conduct to be actionable at AE it needs to be an actual policy violation. The misleading use of images doesn't rise to the level of AE action in my view, and judging whether an addition like this is UNDUE is not within AE's purview, as long as it is supported by the source. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The off-wiki canvassing is a problem. It merits a warning at least, I don't know if the formality thereof matters. If there was evidence that שלומית ליר was aware of WP:CANVAS I would consider something more stringent. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see some evidence - based on Arcticocean's digging below - that שלומית ליר is using images without sufficient care, but I don't see that rising to the level of a sanction. As to the rest, xDanielx is correct - nowhere do our policies require treating both sides of a conflict equally - indeed our PAGs discourage false balance. Those diffs could be actionable if they individually or collectively violate policy, but I have yet to see evidence of that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The PIA5 remedy hasn't passed yet, and its interpretation is as yet unclear to me: but in my view we are already empowered to deal with biased editing, in the sense of editing that violates NPOV. What I'm not willing to do is sanction on the basis of someone's opinions alone; they have to be shown to have let their opinions get in the way of following our PAGs. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- While I understand Vanamonde93's concerns, I think that we are required to assess the totality of the user's contributions. Contentious topic editors are required to uphold NPOV. Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics#Guidance for editors places an obligation to Within contentious topics,… edit carefully and constructively… and… adhere to the purposes of Misplaced Pages. The linked page provides that Misplaced Pages is written from a neutral point of view… We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence. If an editor is only adding content that significantly favours one or the other side to the conflict, this is incompatible with their contentious topic obligation. That is because an editor making only one-sided edits will simply not be taking the necessary steps to ensure that the whole article is written from a neutral point of view. As their number of one-sided edits increases, the likelihood decreases that the editor is ensuring our content is neutral and impartial. Once we reach the point of being sure that they are not attempting to ensure neutrality of content, we can conclude the editor is not meeting their contentious topics obligations and we can issue a sanction. This can only be assessed with hindsight and by looking at the editor's contributions as a whole. arcticocean ■ 20:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- Adding a citation for a claim that Hamas terrorists shot dead a group of Israeli tourists.
- Replacing map with a photograph of victims of violence.
- Removing an outdated maintenance tag which was perhaps casting doubt on the relevant section, Massacre of pensioners, and again.
- Adding specification to claims of the use of human shield (specifying who has made the claims), therefore giving greater weight to the claims, in a context where the claims were already described at considerable length; adding another reference to that claim; and adding another.
- Adding an image contentiously captioned 'Weapons Found in a Mosque', then again Rockets hidden at a house, both to the first line of the article.
- Adding, without sufficient context, an assertion that a philosopher has determined that one side of the conflict is culpable and expanding other coverage of culpability of that side.
- On the talk pages, there has been a tinge of failure to AGF although I would be prepared to look past that (it was like meeting like). I am skipping a few further and insignificant talk page comments.
- There are then edits to LGBTQ rights in the State of Palestine: inserting a reference to execution into the first sentence of the lead; adding more references to news coverage of executions of LGBT+ people by the other side of the conflict. At Houthi movement, there is then an expansion, again of the article lead, to add references to terrorist attacks (with follow-up).
- Assessing the edits as a whole, it is difficult not to conclude that the respondent user is failing to meet their contentious topics obligation to edit neutrally in this topic area. As the number of edits is so far limited, if a sanction is imposed, it could justifiably be light-touch. arcticocean ■ 20:34, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @XDanielx: Thanks for commenting. Most of the edits do not have a neutral, encyclopedic POV. There is an effort to influence our articles away from neutrally describing the subject without taking sides, contrary to WP:NPOV. Even if each edit in isolation is insufficient for sanctioning, taken as a whole the edits show an inability or unwillingness to edit neutrally. One non-neutral edit shouldn't be sanctioned; twenty is a different story. This is not about the percentage of biased edits but about the weight or amount of them. Therefore, the assessment wouldn't really change even had the editor made some 'neutral' edits along the way. I'm happy to concede that editors cannot be compelled to balance edits of one bias with edits of another, but I don't think that comes into it. In a nutshell, this is about Misplaced Pages:Advocacy. arcticocean ■ 08:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Assessing the topic area contributions of the respondent (שלומית ליר) since they became extended-confirmed at 17:33, 8 December 2024, there is cause for concern. I counted 19 edits to the area conflict. Taken together, they significantly skew the articles negatively against the opposing side of the conflict:
- The offwiki canvassing is a problem...שלומית ליר, you're fairly inexperienced here. Were you aware WP:canvassing is not allowed? Valereee (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- For transparency, שלומית ליר reached out to me, and I explained multiple policy and advised her to go ahead and respond here without waiting for individual feedback from her email to arbcom, which may or may not happen. Valereee (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I take it that per Barkeep49's brief oversighting of potentially-sensitive content in this report (Special:Diff/1269845558), and then restoration of the same (Special:Diff/1269848988), concerns of outing have been investigated and the report can proceed on its merits? signed, Rosguill 19:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's correct. I got a request, I didn't really feel it was OUTING, but as I indicated in my edit summary OS is a tool of first resort. I consulted with the OS listserv and received some responses quickly agreeing with me and so I unsuppressed and restored the material. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's not for AE to decide content disputes, and that's mostly what this looks like. We can handle things like flagrant misrepresentation of sources, but how best to represent them is a matter for consensus discussion, not us to decide here. The canvassing was a cause for concern, but it looks like it was rather unintended and had little if any actual effect, and they've agreed to stop that going forward. (Note that doesn't mean anyone must stop criticizing Misplaced Pages or what happens on it; do all of that you like. Just don't encourage people to take particular actions based on that.) I don't see any further action as necessary at this point. Seraphimblade 16:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Luganchanka
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Luganchanka
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Luganchanka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 19:55, 12 January 2025 Reversion to version of article where the article says "He is a child sex offender" in the second sentence despite consensus at BLPN discussion that this is problematic because Ritter never actually interacted with a real child.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
18:28, 12 January 2025 BLP CTOP warning given
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
At BLPN, there has been consensus that the version of the article describing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the second sentence of the article is problematic, as he did not actually have sexual contact with a child, only a police officer impersonating one. Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Scott_Ritter_Biography_-_Noncompliance_with_MOS_and_BLP_Guidelines. Luganchanka has been persistently edit warring against this apparent consensus. For which he has been warned by @NatGertler: , which he subequently blanked There has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article going back to at least August Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence, but Luganchanka persistently cites a "consensus" for its inclusion that as far as I can tell does not seem to exist, with Luganchanka aggressively editing to enforce its inclusion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:26, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's response is disingenuous and misleading. Look at the Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence discussion I linked above. Nobody other than Luganchanka thinks that Ritter should be described as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences of the article. The dispute isn't about whether or not the convictions should be mentioned in the lead at all or not, it's specifically about the use of the phrase "child sex offender", and there is no consensus to include that as far as I can tell, despite Luganchanka's vociferous claims to the contrary. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Luganchanka
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Luganchanka
The intro on the Scott Ritter page had remained largely the same for several months, as you will see on the talkpage it is an intro approved, and reverted to, by multiple senior editors. There has been a recent flurry of activity / edits. While I WP: assume good faith, it does look like those edits are attempting to downplay / whitewash Ritter's sexual offence conviction(s). I have not been 'aggressive' at all, rather I have simply referred contentious edits to the talkpage to build consensus, attempting to do my duty as a good Misplaced Pages editor.Luganchanka (talk) 20:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Please see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, where there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors, that Ritter's sexual offence conviction should be included in the lead to the article. My edits have simply been aimed at ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article.Luganchanka (talk) 20:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you to @Valereee and @Red-tailed hawk for your feedback. If you see the Talk:Scott_Ritter, discussions -
14 August - Vandalism by removing all reference entirely to Ritter being a "Convicted Sex Offender"
andFirst sentence
. The latter discussion ended on 26th September, and resulted in the intro we had until a flurry of edits the other day, trying to move information on Ritter's sexual offence conviction, downplay it, whitewash it etc. My edits were aimed at restoring the edit reached by consensus, which had been in place for several months until the recent raft of edits with the clear aim of moving / downplaying Ritter's sexual offence conviction.Luganchanka (talk) 06:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for this (nest), I really do appreciate your feedback and advice here!!Luganchanka (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC) (moved from admin-only section — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC))
- As per Rosguill's comments:
"Unfazed by "Emily's" age, Ritter asked "Emily," "you want to see it finish?" Ritter then turned on the webcam and ejaculated in front of the camera for "Emily." Detective Venneman then notified Ritter of his undercover status and the undercover operation and directed Ritter to call the police station."
https://casetext.com/case/ritter-v-tuttle
Luganchanka (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by NatGertler
Editor's edits today focused on trying to main a negative descriptor of what subject believed, despite it not being in the three sources that were listed (nor in the old version they ultimately reverted to.) Efforts were first trying to simply restate the claim, then trying to source it to an opinion piece (problem) from the Washington Examiner (also a bit of a problem, per WP:RSP), then trying to state as a fact what had merely been stated in a non-prime article as an accusation. BLP concern was pointed out repeatedly via edit summary and on Talk page. Removal of unsourced contentious BLP claims and even false claims is not "whitewashing" despite how editor wishes to depict it, it is in accord with our practices. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Luganchanka
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Luganchanka: whether you're correct or not, you were edit warring. I believe an indef block from the article and/or a temporary site block would be an appropriate sanction here. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've blocked the user for 48h for violating 3RR based on the report at WP:AN3.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:56, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, edit-warring to remove negative content at a BLP is an exemption to 3RR. I see that NatGertler mentioned this in their edit summaries and at talk. As voorts points out, it doesn't matter whether you're right when you're reverting an edit that is being claimed as an exemption, even if you believe Rosguillwhiyou are "ensuring this consensus reached is maintained in the article". The solution is to go to talk, discuss, and get consensus. If you'd like to respond, ping me to your response at your talk and I'll post it here. Valereee (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka, if you really believe those two sections -- senior editors, indeed, this one was between someone with 13 edits and somcoen who wasn't ECR, for heaven's sake -- somehow prove consensus was strong, and you think that means you can ignore all the later ones -- at one of which you didn't even respond to a ping, where people were objecting -- then this is maybe looking like a WP:CIR issue.
- But even if you had been somehow editing to support a consensus you believed was settled, you cannot edit-war contentious material into a BLP when others are objecting to it. The solution, always, is to go to talk, discuss, and reconfirm consensus. There is zero urgency to have this information in the article. Including something negative in a BLP is not something you should ever edit war over. Valereee (talk) 18:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka's reading of the state of consensus on the talk page as supporting their edits is so far off base that it borders on being a CIR issue if it's sincere. Indef block from Scott Ritter seems appropriate. signed, Rosguill 22:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
whitewash
before writing this off as time-served. signed, Rosguill 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
masturbated and ejaculated on camera
, saying onlygraphic sex act
. As written, this is essentially another BLP violation, building a case that a ban from this topic is needed. signed, Rosguill 16:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing Special:Diff/1269853673 here and Special:Diff/1269853955, Special:Diff/1269845272 at Talk:Scott Ritter, I see no comprehension of the use of primary vs. secondary sources, nor any reflection of their past errors in engaging with this topic. I believe that a block from the page is needed to prevent further BLP violations as they have shown no understanding of the relevant policies even after being given several warnings, reminders and opportunities to revise their position. signed, Rosguill 18:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Luganchanka:
- WP:BLPPRIMARY calls upon users to
not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person
. There are some narrow exceptions (whenprimary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source
), but adding material to the article not found in reliable secondary sources is... suboptimal at best under our biographies of living persons policy. - — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The detail is in the record of Ritter v. Tuttle (case No. 3:15cv1235 (M.D. Pa. Dec. 14, 2018)), so it isn't completely made up. But I would also like to hear from the user on this point as to whether there was secondary sourcing here. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having reviewed the other sources, reliable sources do confirm the masturbation claim (, ) but not ejaculation, which appears to be supported only by New York Post, a generally unreliable source. Luganchanka, in light of this clarification, can you please address your decision to include the claims as you initially wrote them? signed, Rosguill 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not at all comforted by the fact that Luganchanka has proceeded to make Special:Diff/1269831044. The cited BBC source does not state
- Understood, I think that meaning was clear for us here in the admin section, but I could easily see a new editor misinterpreting it unintentionally. signed, Rosguill 15:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's fair; I'll strike the link. My point in including it was that, when conversations fragment, we sometimes get these sorts of chaotic incidents. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see RTH's point about the "First sentence" section in isolation. I'd note that the link to WP:FORUMSHOP isn't really appropriate here, as bringing the discussion to BLP/N was an appropriate action (if it was then brought to NPOVN, NORN, etc., that would be forumshopping). I'd like to see some actual contrition around the edit warring and frivolous accusations of
- @Luganchanka: Would you please provide a direct link to the talk page section you are referring to when you say
there has been a clear consensus reached, on more than one occasion, and by senior[REDACTED] editors
regarding the lead? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 01:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- @Luganchanka and Hemiauchenia:
- It does seem that the discussion at Talk:Scott Ritter#First sentence does indicate some support for that language i.e. (
convicted child sex offender
) in the lead, with some general lean against putting it in the first sentence. So, whileThere has been persistent objection to descrbing Ritter as a "child sex offender" in the opening sentences
is true if it means the literal first sentence, I do see a rough consensus to include the material in the lead section in some way in that discussion. - That being said, the BLPN discussion had a bit of different tone and tenor from the discussion on the talk page. There was notification about a BLPN discussion on the article's talk page, but Luganchanka, despite having been pretty vocal about this subject in the past, hadn't participated in that BLPN discussion. They instead grounded their edits in the argument that the article's talk page had consensus for the current content, and nothing on the article's talk page had changed that consensus. And that much was true. In any case, we've got
two different forums with two different answerstwo different forums with two different answers here, which appears to be what's leading to the whole kerfluffle. - Then the analysis comes to whether or not the label is a straightforward BLP violation, requiring us to read the sourcing in the article. This NY Times piece, which is cited in the body of the article (but not the lead), does state that Ritter
was convicted unlawful contact with minors and other charges
in the state of PA (the PA statute is here; "unlawful contact with minors" is the verbatim name of the crime). When dealing with a sting operation, PA treats it asan offense of the same grade and degree
as if the criminal had actually contacted a child (unless it's a lesser crime than a third-degree felony, in which case it becomes a third-degree felony). This is an extremely common practice in the United States (there are lots of philosophical questions regarding mens rea and actus reus here, but that's not really relevant here). In any case, labeling this to be a child sex offense (or, alternatively, to simply use the name of the crime in the article) does not appear to be straightforward malice/POV-pushing/libel, and a reasonably informed individual might shorten it in this way. Whether or not that is wise or optimal to shorten it is the proper subject for content discussion. - Aside from the edit warring (which was not acceptable, and was aptly handled by a block), this looks like a content dispute. A heated one involving a living person, sure, but a content dispute nonetheless. I see good-faith—albeit passionate—disagreement. If the editors were to come together and engage in one forum (such as the article's talk page, where this has been discussed a bunch), rather than splitting the discussion over multiple pages, I feel like we might have our best shot at attaining a consensus going forward.
- In short, it looks like the conversation fragmented, and consensus-building broke down. Edit warring ensued, which was bad, but we've already blocked for that in order to dissuade it going forward. A Request for Comment on the article's talk page for what the lead should look like is probably the best way to go forward here.
- — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 15:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? Valereee (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ping to @Red-tailed hawk Valereee (talk) 18:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- RTH, are you objecting to a p-block from the article? Valereee (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Luganchanka has been blocked for a week by User:ScottishFinnishRadish for BLP violations and personal attacks. Liz 18:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- With this in mind, I think we should wait to hear from RTH but otherwise expect to move forward to an indef p-block on top of SFR's stopgap action, as we haven't seen anything coming close to an adequate recognition of the relevant policies and practices from Luganchanka and after several second chances and nudges, I don't see reason to expect them to change course. signed, Rosguill 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that this was a regular admin action and I wasn't aware this was before AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
BabbleOnto
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning BabbleOnto
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- ජපස (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- BabbleOnto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/COVID-19#Contentious_topic_designation
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 11 January 2025 Sealioning
- 11 January 2025 Refusal to get the message
- 11 January 2025 Personalizing an argument.
- 11 January 2025 Railroading the discussion.
This is all after I warned them about WP:AE sanctions, and they dismissed my warning out of hand. Very nearly a WP:SPA on the subject. I see no reason to continue tolerating this kind of obstinate tendetiousness. Additional diffs available on request from admins, but looking at the user history should suffice to indicate the problem is obvious, I hope.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 9 Dec 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is a WP:SPA with respect to the topic and their disruption surrounding it has been subject to at least one WP:FTN thread that remains active: Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Gain_of_function_research. The hope was that they would WP:DROPTHESTICK and move on from this, but it seems they either will not or cannot. jps (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning BabbleOnto
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by BabbleOnto
I would first like to begin by point out the person filing this complaint is involved in the content disputes at issue. They have frequently left "warnings" which read more like threats on my talk page and others' talk pages for people who disagree with them. Nor would I be the first person who would they would get banned from this topic for disagreeing with them.
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm being charged with doing.
I think in general the user is alleging I've been uncivil, unhelpful, and, in their words, obstinate and tendentious. I know when someone disagrees with you it may feel like they're getting in your way and acting in bad-faith, but that's not always true. I've never tried to be disruptive or uncivil. I've admitted when I was wrong, I've dropped arguments that were clarified to be wrong, I've tried to find compromise, at times begging people to provide their sources and work together. And when those editors refused to, I didn't provoke any further.
I now address the specific edits in the complaint:
1. I don't see how this is sea-lioning. The user misquoted the article. I pointed out the misquotation, then addressed a accusation against me that I was second-guessing the sources (A claim which was never substantiated). I then said any source would have to support that actual claim which was in the article. I don't know what this violates.
2. I don't see how this is refusing to get the message (IDHT). The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it. I replied with what I actually said. What part of that interaction is saying "I didn't hear that?"
3. Admittedly probably the strongest of the four allegations. I'm not pretending I was perfect in all of my comments. I should have kept my criticism strictly to their argument. I ask you to read it in context and keep in mind you're viewing a hand-picked assortment of my worst edits, and this is the worst they could find. Also consider that conversation accused me of having a basic reading comprehension problem, perhaps you can see I lose my cool sometimes too.
4. I'm not even really sure what "railroading the discussion" means. Thus, to keep this section short and to save words, I don't know what I'm being accused of doing wrong here.
All of this has stemmed out of arguments over two sources. I have tried to find compromise, I have tried to negotiate, I have tried to build consensus. I've been going through the proper channels, I've been participating in the RfC, I've been discussing it on the ANI, I source every claim I make, for a month now I've been trying to constructively explain my side and defend my argument against challenges. It's incredibly frustrating to now be facing an Arbitration Enforcement on grounds that I'm not working with others. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Edited. BabbleOnto (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, the sub-header for this section says that only admins can edit this section, I didn't realize I was allowed to reply here.
- Yes, I will. I intend on taking an extended break from wikipedia, as well. BabbleOnto (talk) 17:06, 19 January 2025 (UTC) Moved from uninvolved admin section; you can answer questions, make comments, discuss, but all your input needs to be in your own section. Valereee (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.
- What I meant was that I'm willing to respect the consensus and not make any further edits or argue any more contrary to what the consensus decided. It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, then there's nothing I can do. I still do disagree with the consensus's result. Nonetheless, I'm not going to edit or argue further, I'll respect it as a legitimate.
- Re:
no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on.
- Then I accept the consensus. I'm not going to argue in those discussions any further, though I still personally disagree, I understand a consensus has been reached which is other than my opinion. Nor will I edit disruptively or against the consensus. I appreciate the admin who noted I largely kept my disagreement in the talk pages, not editing the articles themselves. I plan on staying away from the topic in general for quite a while.
- Re:
Statement by ProcrastinatingReader
I've interacted with BabbleOnto in several threads. There's a few problems, but ultimately, I think they have a certain opinion on what the article should say, and will debate endlessly to get the article changed to their position. I mean, sure, reasonable people disagree on how to interpret sources and apply policy, but I don't think BabbleOnto is actually interested in faithful application of policies to write high quality articles based on good sources.
That's not terribly problematic by itself, but most discussions with BabbleOnto are exhausting. Rather than actually trying to understand someone's argument in good faith, I think BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible, and making a superficially reasonable response ad nauseam. They reply endlessly in this manner. As well as misrepresentation of opponents' arguments, on multiple occassions BabbleOnto has either misrepresented sources or hasn't read their own sources. I can't think of a single thread where BabbleOnto didn't have the last word, or a single thread where it seemed like BabbleOnto was actually trying to understand the arguments of other editors in a charitable way. As such, I think it's very difficult to work collaborately with BabbleOnto on the lab leak theory and related articles. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Newimpartial
As the editor to whom BabbleOnto was responding in the diffs of the filing, I feel compelled to comment now that they have defended (to varying degrees) their first three diffs. I will reply as briefly as I know how to their defense of the diffs, as revised.
1. BabbleOnto is now doubling down on the claim that I misquoted the article
. I didn't "misquote" the article - I didn't quote the article, and I explained what my comment meant in the rest of the (now collapsed) thread that ends here. Also, I provided a clear explanation of why I thought they were second-guessing sources later in the thread, but BabbleOnto never responded to that explanation. They are now responding to the accusation of WP:CPUSH with pure WP:IDONTHEARTHAT.
2. On this they say, now, that The other party is making direct claims alleging I said something. I did not say it.
This is repeating a misreading they made in the original thread, where they mistook a statement I made about another editor's comment as if it were about theirs. In this "defense", I see no attempt to read thoughtfully what other editors say in reply to them and revise their understanding accordingly; all I see is zero-sum mentality and WP:IDHT.
3. BabbleOnto is now justifying an edit where they said to me, You have a habit of inserting small lies into everything you say
and You're not adding anything constructive. You're just refusing to explain anything and saying conclusory statements, or lying about what you said
- all this based on a misreading of what I had actually written - because I was going to refer to a basic failure in reading comprehension
two hours later. This seems like a time travel paradox.
4. They don't bother defending themselves on this one, but just to point out the actual issue with the diff, they doubled down on their accusations that I said a material lie
, and that I lied when said that quoted the article out of context. Pointing out being caught lying
and then proceeded to STRAWMAN the rest of my comment to which they were replying. If they had read my prior comment with a reasonable level of attention, they would have understood that there were no "lies", just a misunderstanding or two in each direction. But WP:IDHT again; even in responding to this filing BabbleOnto is still insisting I did things that I quite obviously didn't do.
It is exhausting to deal with this kind of quasi-CPUSH (not quite civil, but certainly push) behaviour. The Talk page in question has seen a recent influx of single-purpose or nearly single-purpose POV accounts, and in terms of editor energy, this one certainly seems not to be a net positive for Misplaced Pages as a project. Perhaps if they edited away from Covid and US politics, their track record might improve. Newimpartial (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000
Just a quick aside to Valereee's aside: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn....
Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory currently has posts from 19 editors lacking the edits for extended confirmed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Valereee, this is also a problem at other CTOPs, and is likely to become more problematic. I assume due to off-Wiki forums. ECR might just produce more users gaming EC. I thought it would be useful to put your aside into the CTOP template at the top of CTOP TPs. But that assumes folks read it. Walt Kelly said something along the lines of: “If only I could write, I’d write a letter to the mayor, if only he could read." This discussion is likely better off elsewhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note: IntrepidContributor was just TBanned from the topic of COVID-19 and indef blocked until the accusations of off-wiki coordination made by them at ANI are retracted. Those accusations are like their suggestion made in their statement in this filing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by JoelleJay
At the very least, can we get more admin involvement on the lab leak page so trolling like this doesn't disrupt things even more? JoelleJay (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by IntrepidContributor
I have been observing BabbleOnto and while there are valid concerns about bludgeoning, I think the proposed sanctions are too much. His engagement in the Covid lab leak topic is driven by commitment to WP:NPOV, which our articles fail to adhere to, and he made the mistake of arguing with editors who were never going to listen (resulting in what looks like sealioning on his part). He's not only editor to raise issues in the topic and engage in good faith discussion, only to find themselves pulled to AN or AE disputes after staying out of the seasoning traps and refusing to capitulate to threats. In a parallel AN case concerning another editor in same topic, I suggest there may be possible off-wiki coordination , but it can also be on-wiki ().
One need only cross-reference names from Feb 2021 RfC, checking those that voted for labeling COVID-19 lab leak as conspiracy, with the names of complainants here. Contrast all these old timers with the steady stream of tens if not hundreds of regular editors complaining that our article fails NPOV, and see that their gentle approach doesn't work . Our chief complainant is already preparing his next case , and this might not be his first.
I suggest that administrators consider a 1 to 2 month topic ban for BabbleOnto to provide opportunity for him to correct his approach, while staying alert to the tactics of POV editors trying to draw them into content debates to influence outcomes.
IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by TarnishedPath
Please see this edit where BabbleOnto edited Gain of function research restoring previously reverted content and WP:POVPUSH using a shit source after they'd been told by multiple other editors in discussions here and here that the source was shit. Notably in the edit summary they wrote "Read discussion page. Manual revert. No serious challenge has been made to these changes. Methinks an admin needs to get involved...
" despite them being in a WP:1AM situation. If a clue is not gotten by the editor fast I'd suggest TBANs from both COVID and AP2 is warranted in order to cease their disruption. TarnishedPath 04:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting the editor's continued behaviour at Talk:Gain-of-function research. Refer to Special:Diff/1270316266. TarnishedPath 01:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by berchanhimez
This user was given no less than 4 chances on the talk page to stop talking about bans/other editors and start talking about the content. They have continued crying about how they're scared of getting banned... yet they continue blabbing about other editors getting banned for their bad behavior rather than refocusing on the content as requested. At a minimum a partial block from the talk page(s) in question is warranted, and it would be beneficial for a topic ban from the origins of COVID-19, broadly construed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Shibbolethink
I am heavily involved in this overall dispute as someone who has gone back and forth with BabbleOnto. I wanted to add that, in general, my feeling from interacting with this user is that they could be a good contributor to this site, and absolutely could follow the PAGs. They have shown an ability to be courteous . I think the issue is that in FRINGE and other contentious areas like COVID-19 origins, they have shown a tendancy to become "hot-headed" when tensions rise, and to reference an us vs them mentality (and numerous examples from others above). It seems they have also been egged-on, and made more combative from other PROFRINGE users (and probably some anti-FRINGE users as well who do admittedly WP:BITE) in that topic space (e.g. )
We are told often to use narrowest possible restriction to protect the project. In this case, I think that would be a COVID-19 origins TBAN, where most of the disruption has been. The user states they have learned what to do when consensus is against them. If they fail to show that lesson in AP2 articles more than just the 10 or so edits they've made in those articles, an AP2 TBAN would be appropriate at that time (WP:ROPE). Just my 2 cents.— Shibbolethink 22:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning BabbleOnto
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- BabbleOnto, please edit your statement down further to fit within the restriction. This also serves as an opportunity to rephrase your defense, which currently is not convincing at first glance. ProcrastinatingReader's description of the situation seems quite apt, particularly
BabbleOnto replies to editors by picking out parts of an argument, interpreting it in the most disfavourable way possible
, which is currently a pretty fitting description of your response to them here, given that you zeroed in on the "superficially reasonable" part and ignored the much more serious parts of the testimony. signed, Rosguill 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Valereee in line with their follow-up response, I take Objective3000's comments as potentially a basis for community discussion rather than a call for protective action on the lab leak talk page right now. signed, Rosguill 21:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ok, having read through nearly every edit that BabbleOnto has made, I agree with the complainants that not only does BabbleOnto engage in sealioning, it appears to be almost exclusively what they do. The discussion at Talk:Brian Thompson (businessman)/Archive 2 exhibits perhaps even more concerning argumentation than the diffs provided in the initial report. Throughout these discussions, BabbleOnto tends to demand a standard of stating the obvious (with respect to the context of said sources) that is absurd, and continues to lawyer for such standards even when the situation becomes WP:1AM. When criticizing sources' ability to account for basic claims, I can find no examples of BabbleOnto themselves attempting to find sources that would resolve the issues they identify--this is uncollaborative behavior. There is a clear pattern of engaging in this behavior across recent US politics topics consistent with the scope of Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics/American politics. The only saving grace to BabbleOnto's track record is that none of this has translated into disruptive editing of actual articles, just unproductive engagement on talk pages. I am currently in favor of a topic ban from post-1992 American politics; if they are actually here to build an encyclopedia and not to provide a punching bag for debate club, they can use this opportunity to learn more constructive patterns of editing in topics that they are less personally invested in. signed, Rosguill 01:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have to agree, this looks like sealioning. BabbleOnto, you're new here, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt about your ability to learn to collaborate. WP works on collaboration and consensus, and sometimes consensus goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. You have to be willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you. And you absolutely must not insist everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers. I've seen editors at both the Thompson and the lab leak talks tell you they don't actually owe you an answer to your satisfaction.
- Do you think you can learn to do that? Because if you don't think you can, this may not be the right hobby for you.
- As an aside, I'm going to recommend what I always recommend to new editors who end up here: Contentious topics are a terrible place to learn. Go edit in noncontentious topics, where other editors are a lot less exhausted and have the energy to be more patient with new editors. Valereee (talk) 18:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Tangential |
---|
|
- BabbleOnto, are you planning to answer my questions above? Do you think you're able/willing to shrug, walk away, and go work on something else when consensus is against you? Are you able/willing to stop insisting everyone else keep answering you until you're satisfied with their answers? Valereee (talk) 13:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- BabbleOnto's response understanding this as a suggestion to take a break from Misplaced Pages as a whole isn't quite what I was hoping to see. signed, Rosguill 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BabbleOnto, an extended break doesn't solve the issues around understanding policy. An extended break from contentious topics -- while you edit in other topics and learn policy -- would be more helpful all around.
- @Rosguill, I'd support a tban, but is AP2 enough? It seems like COVID and fringe science need to be included? Valereee (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- AP2 + COVID? I see the same behavior at the Brian Thompson article and Havana Syndrome, so COVID alone doesn't seem adequate. Oddly, the intersection of "medicine and politics" would appear to cover all affected topics but maybe that's too bespoke? signed, Rosguill 17:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @BabbleOnto, re:It seems to me that saying I have "Issues around understanding policy" and asking me to "learn policy" has subtext that says "Until you agree with this consensus, and you won't be allowed to edit at all." Is respectful disagreement with this consensus allowed? I'm afraid if in order to avoid a ban I have to personally agree with the consensus, beyond just respecting it, no, you don't have to agree. You just have to accept and move on. Valereee (talk) 23:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think BabbleOnto is actually getting the right idea. You do not have to agree with consensus. There are some consensus positions here I don't agree with, and some I think are rather silly. But, until and unless they change, I respect and abide by them all the same. If I try to challenge them, and it becomes clear that such a challenge was unsuccessful, there comes a time to just shrug, realize you can't win 'em all, and move on. Since they seem to have gotten that point, I think maybe see how things go, and if they return to disruption, I think they're quite clear on what the results of that will be. Seraphimblade 14:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove and frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing during this case...I dunno. Valereee (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). Seraphimblade 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Generally I'm with you. Let people show they've dealt with the issue. Reblocking is pretty easy in most cases. But sealioning...well, it's such a difficult issue to prove/assess, and there are so many people doing it who don't even have the self-awareness to fix the problem that I kind of feel like it needs a tougher approach than I'd normally argue for. Not a hill I'm going to die on, but if the editor is back here or at ANI for the same issue, I am going to be extremely unhappy with them.
- @BabbleOnto, do you understand what we're talking about when we describe your participation at talk pages as WP:sealioning, and why we think it's such a problem, particularly in contentious topics? Do you think you can avoid participating in that way at article talk pages? Valereee (talk) 20:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I certainly understand your point. I am a little hesitant to sanction for "sealioning", as often it is difficult to tell where enthusiasm ends and disruptive tendentiousness begins, and I certainly do not want to have a project where people are afraid to advocate viewpoints contrary to a current consensus. That said, if everyone else feels sanctions are warranted, I won't object terribly strongly; I just generally prefer someone to get a chance to show if they've gotten the point (or in some cases, to conclusively demonstrate that they have not). Seraphimblade 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my experience sealioning is a habit editors have an extremely difficult time breaking. I was going to agree with Rosguill re: a tban from AP2 + COVID, maybe appealable after 3 months and 500 productive and unproblematic edits. This editor is basically ONLY editing in CTOPs, they're doing it disruptively -- we're talking about an editor with only 177 whom other editors are describing as exhausting to interact with! -- and the specific kind of disruption is both frustrating and tedious to prove and frustrating to try to get attention to because who you need so many diffs to prove it. That plus the apparent difficulty in breaking that habit, which btw they were continuing during this case...I dunno. Valereee (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Marlarkey
Marlarkey p-blocked from Declaration of war and formally warned to be more mindful of policies, guidelines and best practices when editing CTOPs, particularly PIA signed, Rosguill 19:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Marlarkey
User has been on Misplaced Pages (on and off) since at least January 2010. It seems there is a WP:CIR-related issue on ArbCom PIA/Contentious topics, given the very clear lack of ignorance of the ArbCom Notification and subsequent edit summary arguments. I do not necessarily believe a block will be of use in this case, due to this editor's on-and-off Misplaced Pages editing status (less than 500 edits since January 2010). Either a topic ban and/or a 1,000 EC status requirement (i.e. EC-status requirement is something higher than 500 edits) is being requested. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion concerning MarlarkeyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MarlarkeyWeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly reverting edits which are removing information outside the scope of the page in question. My edits are validly citated within the scope of the page. WeatherWriter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has cited WP:ARBPIA but that is not relevant to THIS article which is not a Palestine-Israel article. This article is not a contentious topic - it is factual. My edits are WP:NPOV. This article is about declarations of war - the opening statement states "A declaration of war is a formal act by which one state announces existing or impending war activity against another." 1. Hamas is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hamas should not be included in the article 2. Hezbollah is not a nation state - So Israel vs Hezbollah should not be included in the article 3. Russia vs Ukraine are both nation states - the question then is whether there has been a declaration of war. In the case 1 & 2, the removal of these two entries is WP:NPOV and the inclusion or otherwise in this article is in no way a comment on the conflict in question - only whether they constitute a declaration of war by one nation state on another. Which they do not because they are nation states. In the case of 3, the inclusion of Russia vs Ukraine only relies on whether there has been a declaration of war. The citation I gave is documented evidence of Russia announcing that a state of war exists between Russia and Ukraine. I suggest that by taking the action they have that the complainant is the one acting in a that asserts a political opinion about the conflict
Weatherwriter reversions of my edits serve to support a political opinion on a page which is about facts. I'm pretty angry about being accused in this way when MY edits were factually based and neutral point of view, whereas by reverting my edits it does precisely the opposite, allowing contentious and politically biased information to infect the page. GRRRRRRrrr Marlarkey (talk) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Again this makes me angry at the accusations being made against me. If you don't want people editing and contributing to[REDACTED] then please just say so. GRRR Marlarkey (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Result concerning Marlarkey
Marlarkey, you have gone a bit over your 500 word allotment for responses. Please do not comment further unless directly asked to. I will remove an additional reply that was both over your limit and in the wrong section. signed, Rosguill 00:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm thus inclined to suggest an indefinite partial block from Declaration of war (but not its talk page) as a regular admin action for edit warring, and a logged warning to be mindful of CTOP standards. signed, Rosguill 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC
|
DanielVizago
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning DanielVizago
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Schazjmd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- DanielVizago (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_and_sexuality#Final_decision
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 29 Dec 2024 Added Category:Misandry to a BLP, after CTOP notification and several talk page messages notifying DanielVizago that the category is not to be applied to articles about individuals (per category description,
This category is for issues relating to misandry. It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly misandrist.
); - 4 Jan 2025 and 5 Jan 2025 Removing sourced content from Misogyny that states misandry is not a major an issue as misogyny;
- 5 Jan 2025 Changing content in Male privilege to emphasize misandry (reverted by another editor with edit summary
rv, poorly sourced (sources supplemented by WP:OR and WP:SYNTH), earlier version was better, closer to sources
); - 13 Jan 2025 Added "bimisandry" to Biphobia, citing 4 sources, none of which include that term;
- 14 Jan 2025, weird edits adding Category:Female rapists with piped names to unrelated articles, then added those names directly to the category page;
- 14 Jan 2025 restored the "bimisandry" edit to Biphobia, then added a 5th ref that includes the term but is just a blog; I left a 4th-level warning on talk page;
- 14 Jan 2025 (after final warning) adds ] and ] to Hurtcore; those two individuals don't have articles and there is no mention in this article of their charges or convictions, even though the category solely consists of
articles of female individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- None
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- I alerted them on 28 Dec 2024
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Above diffs are all edits after the CTOP notification was provided. Before then, DanielVizago misapplied Category:Misandry to 46 articles, which is what caught my attention. Their attempts to add "bimisandry" to Biphobia started 16 Dec 2024. On 28 Dec 2024, DanielVizago added a lot of content to Supremacism about misandry, which another editor reverted with edit summary remove recently added pro-fringe section and put back the excerpt
. Most of their 122 edits have been reverted by multiple editors.
Before the level 4 warning, I tried guiding DanielVizago away from CTOP; they don't engage on their talk page. (They've posted there once, to say "thanks" in response to a warning.) With their refusal to communicate, poor sourcing, and non-NPOV edits, I don't think they should be editing in this topic area. Schazjmd (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning DanielVizago
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by DanielVizago
Statement by caeciliusinhorto
Since this report was opened, DanielVizago has continued to make questionable edits adding articles to Category:Female rapists.
- Possibly the worst edit, categorising a living person who has been accused (but not charged, let alone convicted) of sexual assault as a rapist (cf. WP:BLPCRIMINAL)
- This edit adds the category to a disambiguation page on the basis of one of the people listed on that page, who had in fact been convicted not of rape but of sexual activity with a minor
- this and this edit categorise two sexually-motivated murderers as rapists despite no evidence that they ever raped anyone in the article (cf. WP:CATV)
Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Simonm223
Might be wise, as long as doing so wouldn't interfere with evidence, to get a revision deletion on some of the diffs presented above that make unfounded statements about BLPs. Simonm223 (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning DanielVizago
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I've p-blocked from article space to see if we can get this editor communicating. Valereee (talk) 12:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I want to hear what they have to say, but I'm going to need a fairly convincing explanation as to how they're here to build an encyclopedia and not to POV-push men's rights activism content where it doesn't belong. The IDHT and spammy behavior and the BLP vios on top of that aren't super encouraging, either, but if they decide to communicate, I'm happy to reassess. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to hear what they have to say, too, but I'm also not averse to letting this archive with no further action since the p-block is an indef. I've left another message at their talk. Valereee (talk) 13:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
]
Ekdalian
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Ekdalian
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- NXcrypto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Ekdalian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBIPA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 12:51, 11 January 2025 - Restoring recently added disputed content, contrary to WP:ONUS
- 21:55, 11 January 2025 - Casting unsubstantiated aspersions and poisoning the well against another editor.
- 12:01, 13 January 2025 - Poisoning the well against another user without any evidence of misconduct.
- 19:11, 15 January 2025 - Restoring recently added disputed content again and essentially asking to get consensus for it, contrary to WP:ONUS.
- 15:05, 16 January 2025 - Performs a blanket revert in order to make a WP:POINT, just because their previous edit was reverted, despite it being the version that was arrived upon by a month long discussion on the talkpage, also saying "LE also wants to discuss and revisit the content proposed by the sock" , LukeEmily later elaborated that they are okay with the version that Ekdalian was actually reverting
- 17:42, 16 January 2025 - Same as above but edit warring
- 19:42, 16 January 2025 - Edit warring and casting aspersions saying that reverting editor is acting like the blocked sock Nobita456 "stop behaving like Nobita please"
- 14:31, 18 January 2025 - Attacks and tries to poison the well against another editor also says that "WP:ONUS doesn't mean you need to achieve consensus with editors condemned by admins for persistent POV pushing! "
- 18:47, 18 January 2025 - Restores the aforementioned attack saying "Related to the content only, related to WP:CONSENSUS to be precise; accept the truth, I don't want to report minor incidents" when told to focus on content
- 18:29, 19 January 2025 - calling a WP:NOTVANDAL edit as vandalism and issues final warning for vandalism
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Has a {{Ds/aware|ipa}} template for the area of conflict on their own talk page. and notified of WP:ARBIPA by Dennis Brown in 2022
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I also note that Ekdalian has a history of aggressive edit warring in the contentious topic as a part of slow running edit war.On Bengali Kayastha, many of their most recent edits have been reverts to prevent content addition as well. It has gotten to the point where experienced users like Sitush have called them out for it because they usually misrepresent the consensus or comments by editors such as Sitush to claim that consensus already exists when there is none, they do not provide diffs when asked to substantiate their claims either. They have been reprimanded in past over similar conduct about misrepresentation and exaggeration by @Dennis Brown: on this venue as well. They have a history of attacking other users and trying to poison the well against them instead of focusing on the content as diffs above prove.
I am not seeking any topic bans but Ekdalian should be at least told not to misuse the talk page for adding more fuel into heated disputes, and use the revert button only when it is necessary. Nxcrypto Message 03:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm unimpressed by your defence of #10, it was an unsourced change, sure disruptive but not vandalism (which has a very specific meaning). Please refer to WP:NOTVANDAL. Nxcrypto Message 07:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Ekdalian
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Ekdalian
I have nothing to say as such! I have been serving Misplaced Pages since 2013, particularly related to contentious caste articles, fighting against caste promotion, POV pushing and vandalism. Heated debates are common in the contentious topics. I have neither violated 3RR, nor abused any editor! Yes, in case someone has been topic banned and condemned by admins, I do mention the same so that NPOV is not violated. Many admins are aware of my activities including SPI, anti-disruption and anti-vandalism. Thanks & Regards. Ekdalian (talk) 06:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Action (warning) may be taken against NXcrypto for being unable to identify vandalism (refer to point number 10), and wasting the time of our admins! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nxcrypto, it is a clear case of vandalism. The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha (higher status among Bengali Kayasthas) by intentionally changing Eastern (Bengal) to Western! Moreover, the user has done similar vandalism in multiple articles only in order to promote Western Bengali Guhas. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 08:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- In response to Bishonen's comments, I would like to inform here that Sitush is referring to my response at a time when Nobita456's sock was driving a discussion and I had filed an SPI! Therefore, I was delaying the discussion in order to eliminate the sock from the same. Sitush has been quoted out of context! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 12:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Orientls, the user has already been blocked for vandalism; I have years of experience in this area and quite sure of what I have mentioned! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Bishonen: I have clearly mentioned that I am not sure! But, Orientls seems to be so sure that they have stated that I am 'falsely' accusing him of meatpuppetry! How can you be so sure that there has been no mail exchanges? Orientls, do you think you are God? Regards. Ekdalian (talk) 06:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Orientls
I find this comment by Ekdalian unpalatable: "The user intends to misrepresent and project their caste as Kulin Kayastha." How are you so sure of their caste? I don’t see where they have self-identified as such, and you also accuse them of attempting to project "their caste'" with another one by "vandalising" Misplaced Pages, which is a serious accusation against a new editor. I think an editor of your tenure should be able to recognize what constitutes vandalism because those edits are not vandalism, you should also refrain from speculating about the caste of editors.
This reasoning seems odd, especially when Sitush himself states: "CharlesWain began this discussion. They are not a sock, are they?" , implying that you were opposing changes proposed by an editor who was not a sock by misrepresenting Sitush's comments. I also think canvassing was inappropriate, particularly with its problematic heading, "Kind attention: Bishonen and admins active here." It sounds as if you are trying to recruit people to back you up here.
Honestly, I’m not surprised by the diffs cited in the report, especially if your conduct at ARE is like this where your edits are under scrutiny.
@Bishonen: While the filer himself made it clear that he is not "seeking any topic bans", Ekdalian deserves a topic ban following this new message. By calling an editor with almost 4k edits a "comparatively new user" and falsely accusing him of "meatpuppetry", Ekdalian has proven he is not capable of editing here without poisoning the well and making personal attacks. Orientls (talk) 03:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Ekdalian
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I will point out that I was canvassed to this discussion by Ekdalian. That said, I'll state that I don't think NXcrypto's diffs are anything much; it's surely a stretch to call them "casting apersions" and "poisoning the well" and the like, especially in the IPA area where the tone is often sharp. The comments by Sitush are a little more concerning, though. Bishonen | tålk 10:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC).
Alex 19041
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Alex 19041
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Est. 2021 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Alex 19041 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Alex 19041
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Alex 19041
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Alex 19041
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- To recap what's already been said at the initial hearing this got at ARBCOM, it has been identified that Alex19041 is not extended-confirmed, has now been made aware of the 30/500 editing restriction for PIA, has acknowledged that they should not make any edits to the topic, but has not quite acknowledged that they also should not make comments relating to the topic outside of article space. If they can acknowledge that, an IBAN would be unnecessary as they will not be engaging further with the discussion at-issue for some time. If they can't acknowledge that, we'd likely need to escalate to blocks, as there's no reason to expect the IBAN to be observed. Some concern was also raised that Est. 2021's replies to Alex 19041 included personal attacks, although it should be noted that Est. 2021 has made an effort to remove potentially-problematic statements from their prior comments at ARBCOM (sections on their talk page containing similar language have been removed entirely, which is within their purview on a user talk page). signed, Rosguill 16:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- (came here from the ill-fated ArbCom case request). I agree with Rosguill. Some assurance from Alex 19041 and from Est. 2021 that they will leave the problematic edits behind would be good.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree that the reported user needs to show some understanding that as a non-EC user, they need to leave this CTOP alone across all namespaces. However, sanctions are for serious, ongoing problems, three unwelcome talk page posts made over the course of an hour does not strike me as sufficient cause for a formal iban. If there's more to it than that, it needs to be made clear, with diffs. Beeblebrox 21:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Denali-related pages
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Denali-related pages
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Beeblebrox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- ] (] · ] · ] · ] · filter log · ] · block log)
Search CT alerts: • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:CT/AP
I think this is the right place to ask for this? Requesting an expansion of WP:CT/AP to cover all articles related to Denali, as it has unfortunately become a political hot-button issue as the POTUS made it a prioroty on his first day back in office to sign an executive order to revert the name of the mountain back to "Mt. McKinley".
In the past twenty-four hours there has been heavy editing/disruption in articles and on related talk pages and protection has been needed at several. Denali was probably hit hardest, but Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute got some too, as has Denali National Park and Preserve, which is explicitly not even part of the executive order. I wouldn't be surprised if the same issue is happening in Gulf of Mexico related articles, but haven't checked for myself. Beeblebrox 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, just checked Gulf of Mexico. 28 new talk page sections in the past day, was already ECP protected two weeks ago per WP:CT/AP.
- I kinda think a single admin could do this, but I am editorially involved and probably slightly too infuriated to be objective. Beeblebrox 22:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replies, that's kind of what I thought, but again didn't want to act on it as I'm editorially involved. Beeblebrox 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Discussion concerning Denali-related pages
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Denali-related pages
Statement by Isabelle
Since I've protected Denali's talk page, I will comment here. I agree that we will be seeing serious issues in the coming month, considering all the shit the new president is throwing at the wall, but I believe the administrators are well equip to deal with this at the moment. I believe Valereee has protected the Gulf of Mexico's talk page, and I've dealt with Mount Denali's. We might need to apply more extensive protection during this coming month to stop the vandals, but current tools will do just fine. Isabelle Belato 23:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by Valereee
Pinged here: yes, I've semi'd Talk:Gulf of Mexico, yesterday for 24 hours, today for another 31. I dislike protecting a talk, but it was a burden for editors working there. Valereee (talk) 23:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- 100+ edits today on the article, which is EC protected. I feel like that's a lot. Valereee (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Denali-related pages
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- @Beeblebrox: AMPOL already covers "Post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed". I think that "broadly construed" would include Denali and Gulf of Mexico in the current moment. In any event, I think you'd want to go to ARCA, not here, for an amendment. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, Denali is already ECP and Denali National Park and Preserve has semi-protection. There's no protection on Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute, but I'm not seeing anything in the page history that would justify it.l voorts (talk/contributions) 22:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- AE couldn't expand the scope of an existing CT designation; only ArbCom could do that. But I don't think we need to. If the disruption is related to a current American politics controversy, that's clearly related to "post-1992 politics of the United States", and so is already in scope of the existing CT designation. So, I'd say just treat it as such. Seraphimblade 22:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)