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== Very important thing to mention! ==
{{ChristianityWikiProject|class=B|importance=High|jehovah's-witnesses=yes|jehovah's-witnesses-importance=Top}}
Consubstantiality is usually the superficial merger of the trinity, but Jehovah Witnesses don't accept the trinity. Ok with that. But consubstantiality - Greek: to homoousion means also that the person-god Jehovah the father alone is internally non divisible - doesn't have internal constituents.


Some people say he has, some say no. Is the second definition (not about the trinity) of the ομοούσιον accepted officially by the Jehovah Witnesses? Add data about the innate consubstantiality of the person-god Jehovah as interpreted officially by the Jehovah Witnesses. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{Archive box|auto=yes}}


:JWs have no position themselves on "consubstantiality", which is a subset of trinitarian belief, other than that they don't believe in it. It is not necessary for this article to elaborate on JW views of Catholic views.--] (]) 08:12, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
== Higher Education ==


== Memorial partakers ==
When I was still serving as an elder in the late summer of 2006 in a congregation of JWs in SoCal we received a letter from the "Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses" (READ: the Governing Body) directing that ANYONE pursuing a higher education would be disqualified from privileges of service. I remember this quite distinctly because I had just received by BA in Education in June a few months before. In 2002, I had decided to pursue a degree under the Society's then current "it's a personal decision" policy and was quite shocked at their drastic policy change and also angry because (by implication) I was being made to feel bad because they changed their mind.
There used to be statistics in the annual yearbook about those who chose to partake in the Memorial. This might be worth mentioning, since only the annointed can partake. The statistics stopped being published a few years ago. ] (]) 20:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)


:No, the memorial partakers figures are still published annually on the official website as part of annual "Grand Totals". I'm not sure it's necessary for this article to elaborate on specific details of how many partakers there may be, as this article is a more general article about their beliefs.--] (]) 05:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I did not make a copy of that letter. Has anyone? --] (]) 17:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
::It would be interesting because according to Watchtower teaching, partakers have to be born again, and being born again ended in the late 1930s. In other words, no one has been born again since then. This is part of their end times teaching, so it would be interesting to see if the numbers are in fact going down. --] (]) 23:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
:::That view was changed in 2007, and it is not current JW belief that only people born prior to the 1930s can be 'anointed'. Aside from that, the number claiming to be 'anointed' has indeed increased every year since 2005, but that doesn't bear directly on this article, particularly since the Watch Tower Society itself says that some 'partakers' may not 'really' be 'anointed'.--] (]) 01:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
::::Well nothing has been established as for the information above.All of us who know the Religion ,know the reasons why sometimes information change.i hope many of us here are just ignorant If for reasons of not knowing some information.It would be sad and selfish if someone is twisting information knowingly.
::::I can see Jehovah witness dont establish all believes and it's for a reason,to those of you who don't know!That reason is ,they fully believe in the bible but they don't trust themselves(truly humble(bible teaching into consideration)and they know their own judgement can be false. That means if something is established by them they have looked the information over and over again.Then they publish it and show it to the public.Intresting of all things ,we can backtrack all their believes and doings.Understanding is key
::::.I'm not a Jehovah witness.I have a non biased opinion just like this page. ] (]) 15:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)


:::::You don't seem to be suggesting anything relevant to article content. This Talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not providing general opinions or speculation about JWs. See also ].--] (]) 07:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
:Are you intending starting a section in this article? You could try asking the same question at the jehovahs-witness.net forum and see if someone has it. ] (]) 21:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
::This would require a reliable source rather than the anecdotal evidence above. There is nothing in the elders' manual (2010) or the publishers' manual (2009) supporting the claim above.--] (]) 22:30, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


== Accusation of bias ==
== This whole page should be deleted ==


After adding an innocuous wikilink to this article, an IP editor {{User|24.78.228.96}} claimed at ] that the previous absence of the wikilink is an example of "glaring bias". The page where the IP editor complained is a defunct WikiProject and is therefore unlikely to get much response there. I have therefore copied the existing discussion from there below.--] (]) 07:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
This whole heading should be submitted for deletion because all of it comes from a slanted non -NPOV. It is filled with Inconsistencies and outright lies of those with a pointed agenda. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:39, 8 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:{{User|24.78.228.96}}, I must confess I am confused. Your internal wikilink is still present and the only edit {{User|Jeffro77}} made was to remove the underscore. That edit didn't change the internal link or even render it inert. Your added link is still there, it still works, there was no attempt to "wipe it away". What is the problem here? I would also like it to be known that {{User|24.78.228.96}} has posted on a semi-retired user's talk page, questioning to move of this discussion. ] (]) 11:32, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
::You’re right to be confused. They seem to believe that the previous absence of the wikilink constitutes some fundamental attack on Christianity. Their personal attack in the discussion below is quite odd too. My removal of the underscore from the link was made a few hours ''after'' their initial complaint and was entirely incidental cleanup.—] (]) 11:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
:Did you realise it is possible to Google-search for questions about Witness's believe. Select sources at: WOL.JW.ORG and find out what they believe from them, not those who hate them.
:The Witnesses not 'fooled', but are kind, happy people.
:Folks owe it to themselves to search for truth, and avoid hate talk. ] (]) 15:58, 20 September 2024 (UTC)


:::You don't seem to be suggesting any change to the article. Aside from that, I could also ask the (hypothetical) creepy guy who drives his van around schools to find out what he says about himself too. So why should people restrict themselves only to your preferred denomination's website rather than get a third-party perspective?--] <span style="padding:2px 4px;background-color:#eee;color:#000;border:1px solid #000;font-size:12px;border-radius:4px;">]</span> 01:52, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Discuss. What are the lies? What are the slants? If you can support your ideas with sources, a re-write could be possible. However, be prepared to defend your proposed changes with something other than ] or only JW sources. ] (]) 18:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
===Discussion copied from '']''===


I can't believe that after all this time there is bias in these articles and twisting of the facts and truth.
I start reading and right in the second paragraph some one has added a note about some dissemination of some news.
This isn't some news that no one else is talking about that can be glossed over like that.
There are bible translations out there that use the very phrase "]" because it refers to ],
that every Christian denomination refers to.
So I changed it to what it should be and even added and internal link to the article for "The Gospel" which says in the first line, also referred to as "The Good News." These are the And I am worried that this twisting of the facts by omission is shows a glaring bias. And I request that it be observed for a period, placed on a watch list, or whatever is official done at this project. Thank you. ] (]) 06:50, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
:It seems as though you may be over-reacting. You added a wikilink to the article, which was uncontested. It is not clear how the previous absence of that one wikilink indicates any 'twisting of facts', nor is it clear what other 'glaring bias' you're alluding to. You have not attempted to engage anyone at the article's Talk page regarding your concerns.--] (]) 09:34, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
::There he is, the man himself. I would want a second opinion on absolutely anything you have to say. As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern. I'm glad you're here to minimize that point, which also vindicates my concern. ] (]) 16:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
:::And if the hypothetical boogeyman you've invented shows up, you can discuss their objections on the article's Talk page. The absence of a single wikilink that was overlooked because the context was already clear is not the conspiracy you imagine it to be. Apart from your pointless rhetoric here, there is no problem at all with the change you made to the article.--] (]) 04:00, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
:::The term "good news", without a wikilink, was first introduced into the text of the original article ] by {{User|AuthorityTam}}, a pro-JW editor, on 2 April 2009. Elements of the subject relating to ''beliefs'' were split to ] on 14 August 2010, with the same wording retained, and the article was renamed ] later the same day. The context of the statement apparently seemed obvious to the editor who added the phrase and subsequent editors. At no point was a wikilink added to the term in question and then subsequently removed due to any supposed 'bias'.
:::If you have any legitimate concerns of bias to discuss regarding the article, please start a section at the article's Talk page.--] (]) 04:42, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
:::I have reviewed every change made to the lead of the article in question. Apart from occasional section or page blanking by vandals (some being JW supporters trying to redirect traffic to the denomination's website), the only change made to the term "good news" in the lead was one removal of the quotations marks around the term on 23 December 2014, which was reverted the same day. But if the IP editor won't take my word for it, they are welcome to review the history of the article themselves and point out any instance where the absent wikilink was supposedly added and then removed due to some imagined 'bias'.--] (]) 05:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
::::As I've already said, when I came across the article, the term "The Good News" (as a reference to Gospel's purpose, of every Christian denomination) was NOT there. What was there was written as some , which is a smear and a slight on this religion. No proverbial wheelbarrel full of distraction you bring into this can change that. ] (]) 22:11, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::More than happy to hear whether other contributors here, or at the article’s Talk page where you should have raised your objection, agree with your novel reasoning on this matter.—] (]) 23:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::I would also add that Jehovah's Witnesses do not capitalise the term "good news" (even when referring to the gospel). Additionally, the original editor who added the term included an extended quotation (which is still present 12 years later) in the supporting citation showing the use of "good news" explicitly in the context of Christian "proselytizing" (and the cited source explicitly explains that no negative connotation of the term "proselytize" is meant). The wikilink that has been added (which the IP editor imagines will be attacked for some bizarre reason) is entirely appropriate, but its absence was by no stretch of the imagination any attempt at 'smearing Christianity'.--] (]) 01:14, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
(1) "smearing Christianity" is not what I wrote, either you don't understand my point, you are pretending not to understand my point, or just twisting my words right in plain sight. <br>
(2) "posted on a semi-retired user's talk page" is relevant only if you ignore that all those names are still on the project participant list. <br>] (]) 11:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
:Your exact words were “smear and a slight on this religion” and paraphrasing as ‘smearing Christianity’ is accurate. (''Jehovah's Witnesses'' is a ''denomination'' of ''Christianity'' which is a ''religion''. I am not responsible for your possible misuse of the terms.) I’m not interested in childish semantic debates. It remains the case that your accusations and personal attacks are entirely unfounded. If you have any legitimate concerns of bias in the article, present them.] (]) 11:56, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
::User:Jeffro77, You are false, and your accusation of semantics is false, I wrote my statement on the "Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs" page not the "Christianity" page, so you paraphrasing is exactly what I called it, "twisting my words." If I'm writing "this religion" on a Jehovah's Witness talkpage, you can't reinterpret it as all of Christianity, that's your falsehood not my semantics. You've managed to double down on your tunnel vision this time, the first time was not bothering to note that any old news is not the Good News. ] (])
::: This entire ‘dispute’ exists only in your own mind. I already indicated in a previous response to your unfounded personal attack that the context of the ‘good news’ in the article was clearly in reference to ‘the gospel’ and not ‘news’ generically. I’m sorry that you’re so disheartened by the absence of a wikilink that someone other than me failed to add when they made a change 12 years ago, but unless you can provide me with a time machine, there is nothing I can do about it. Just calm down.--] (]) 23:43, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
:: I hadn't realised that you had sent out a Group Notice when I saw your change from the 'Recent Changes' list. Due to the large edit size and the summary only being 'gn' it looked suspiciously like vandalism. I caution you that you must assume good faith ], we are not trying to silence you or twist your words, we are confused as to your actions. '''Your edit still stands, the link still works, please explain what the problem is more clearly.'''
::Side-note:
::If you're looking to get more involved with a religion wikiproject then I recommend ] or ] as they are much more active and not listed as 'Defunct'. You can continue to contribute towards ] and help reduce bias while being in a more active environment. I also recommend that you create an account, this is so your edits are tied to a single source as IP addresses for editors often change. Learn more about why creating an account is helpful at ].
::] (]) 12:06, 14 March 2021 (UTC)


== RfC about conduct at this Religious Article's talkpage ==
I need help, How do I formally request the deletion of this page of lies? ] (]) 18:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
{{archive top|result='''No content dispute, no actionable result.'''<br>Twelve years ago an editor wrote ''disseminating "good news"''. An IP editor changed it to ''disseminating "the good news"''. They made various allegations of deception/bias, and asserted that their edit would be opposed. There is apparently unanimous agreement that the edit is an improvement, and there is thus no content dispute here.


An RFC to request to "review of the conduct" on a talk page is inappropriate. Conduct issues may be raised at ]. However the IP editor should be aware that there appears to be unanimous agreement of five editors (including myself) that the only conduct issue here was the assumption and assertion of deception/bias/conflict by the IP editor. Any conduct complaints at ] or elsewhere are likely to reach the same conclusion. I advise them to review our conduct guideline: ]. ] (]) 08:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)}}
Technically, go to ]. However, I am going to warn you that you will probably not get far, as you haven't even talked about it here yet. Like I said, discuss. Give examples and sources that back your opinion. ] (]) 18:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


I would like a review of the conduct at this Religious Article's talkpage?
::Why should I be required to give sources when those who posted this fictitious material were not required to do so? Where did your NPOV disappear to? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
The policy tag is there for a broader more neutral request <br>
in this spirit of ] where things started. ] (]) 21:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC) <br>


* '''Concerned:''' My request is vindicated by false accusations, such as "vandalism" for messaging project members. ] (]) 21:15, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Please sign your comments. And as far as I can see, there are currently 179 references to sources in this article. And I did not say you could NOT use JW sources, just be prepared to defend them if you use ONLY JW sources. ] (]) 18:58, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
* I have (briefly) reviewed the conduct on the article, as well as on this, its talk page, of the IP user 24.78.228.96, and at ]. I did all this solely because I saw an RfC notice ]. My assessment is that nothing terrible has happened, except that 24.78.228.96 appears to be unduly incensed that a two-word phrase was never linked to a WP target page. 24.78.228.96 added the link, addressing the situation, causing no complaints or negative reactions by anybody on the planet, and still: 24.78.228.96 has fussed, complained, argued, sneered at or even ] another user and started an (IMO) unnecessary RfC.{{pb}}My advice would be for IP user 24.78.228.96 to calm down, maybe even take a short break, then look over their actions and try to see that what we've got here is a whole lot of overreaction by an IP user, and a whole lot of calm discipline on the part of the other (logged-in) editors. <i>&mdash;&nbsp;] (])</i> 22:46, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
** I too have (slightly more than briefly, but not in-depth) looked at this conversation (as far as I can follow it). There is no actual problem to look at, despite the fact that the IP is requesting someone look at it. The edit is still in (a wiki-link of all things), '''and was never challenged'''. It appears their complaint is that it wasn't wiki-linked already. Jeffro clearly explained that it was simply an oversight when the edits to the page were originally made ("The context of the statement apparently seemed obvious to the editor who added the phrase and subsequent editors. '''At no point was a wikilink added to the term in question and then subsequently removed due to any supposed 'bias'.'''"). The IP appears to be wanting an RFC because they THINK that something that hasn't occurred (the removal of their wiki-link) will occur at some point ("'''As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern.'''"). This appears to be completely pointless on every level.
** One final note on the "attack" that can be seen via the link in JohnFromPinckney's above post: I do not believe it rises to the level of an actual attack. Declaring that you would want a second opinion because you don't trust the first person's is certainly rude and childish, but does not constitute an attack IMO. Unless there is another more blatant personal attack that the IP has done elsewhere that I have missed, I say we simply dismiss the RFC. ] (]) 00:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
:::It was a personal attack, as the wording was specifically targeted at me rather than a general statement about wanting a second opinion, though the specific motivation is unclear. However, the attack is ''trivial'' and as it is unlikely the editor will apologise, it can simply be ignored at this point unless the behaviour continues.--] (]) 00:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - aside from spamming the former participants of the defunct WikiProject indicated previously (causing some degree of confusion, including but not limited to another editor initially thinking the group message might have been vandalism), the anonymous IP is continuing to ] for support of this RFC, though it is not clear what the editor is actually expecting to achieve.--] (]) 07:48, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
*'''Clarifying.''' Since I keep being misquoted. I originally was concerned with the wording of "a good news" (insinuating some other) since this is not a new article, there seemed to me to be bias in that it was left incorrectly worded (for so long) to suggest something it is not, in a lead paragraph no less. "a good news" is a different thing as "The Good News AKA the Gospel" and the minimizing struck me as an ugly dangerous bias. My concern about the correction of "a good news" (not the internal link) being reverted is only cautionary and the internal link is not the main concern I first raise, that has lead to these processes. All along the way though, User:Jeffro77 has twisted what I had to say to suite his purposes: Taking what I had to say at the ] away from that context, and then attacking me for referring to that context, by calling me a spammer for messaging members of that project, is to me good evidence of acting on bias. Saying I am referring to all of Christianity when I am talking about "this religion" on the "Jehovah's Witness beliefs" talkpage is another example of his twisting my words. User:Jeffro77 immediately misquoted me when her first saw that I was talking about the wording of the second lead paragraph, and started instead referring to the link I had added to take attention away from my actual concern, and everyone that has followed has critisized me for what he claims is my concern, not what I actually wrote at ]. I was not aware that the projects was left behind when I first went looking for the correct channel to complain about the bias in the lead paragraph. But having found that resource I tried to make full use of it. If User:Jeffro77 hadn't been taking me out of context and twisting what I had to say from the start this would not have escalated to where it is, because this behaviour served only to fuel my concerns about bias in this/these articles. Left in the context of concern for bias, if you look at it from the start, he has reveal himself through his edits here. ] (]) 18:49, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
*:1. The article never said “a good news”, and no one has complained about your change to the article. The context was already evident from the supporting citation, but the introduction of “the” was an improvement. As with the wikilink, it is not the case that the word “the” was ever previously added and then subsequently removed from the phrase, due to alleged bias or for any other reason, since the term “good news” was added in 2009. Despite your false accusations that I have deliberately misquoted or misrepresented your intentions, you did initially only add the wikilink, and it was a few minutes later that you added "the", so it is not clear how I was expected to know your primary concern. I repeatedly said very clearly that there was no problem with your change. JW literature does not capitalise the term “good news” (even when referring to the gospel). (Also, various mainstream Bibles, including the "Good News Translation", contain the rendering "good news" without "the" at {{bibleref|Luke|4:18}}. Jehovah's Witnesses' ''New World Translation'' also has "good news" without "the" at that verse along with Luke 3:18; and 16:16.)
*:2. I am in no way responsible for the wording chosen by another editor (and a supporter of the denomination in question) 12 years ago.
*:3. The WikiProject you posted on was labelled as defunct in 2012. Everything you said at that page was copied to this page, with full context and clearly indicated as being moved from that page.
*:4. Jehovah’s Witnesses is a denomination and Christianity is a religion. Your misuse of the terms is not my responsibility.
*:5. You started this entire train wreck by crying out ‘bias’ over an edit you made that no one complained about. If you had just made the change and left it at that, reviewers such as myself would have casually thought, “oh, yeah, that’s better” and enjoyed the rest of our day.--] (]) 21:23, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
*"Disseminating good news" is a deceptive minimizing spin on what they do, because it suggests something other than "The Gospel," AKA the Christian Good News. You will never get me to agree to anything different from that statement. Having accepted that it is deceptive, the bias is clear. You will never get met to agree to anything different from that either. There is no point in arguing with you, you just don't want to see it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added 09:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*:At this point, I don't really care if you 'agree'. You made an edit that was uncontested, and your opinion of me is irrelevant. If you have any ''actual'' concerns with article content, present those concerns. Otherwise, just go away. If you continue with any irrelevant personal attacks, you will be reported to admins.--] (]) 14:03, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
*:The previous wording that you insist is ‘biased’ was added by a pro-JW editor 12 years ago, so you ordinarily would need to take up your concerns with that editor. But the editor hasn’t been active for several years, so I guess you can just relax.—] (]) 22:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
*'''Note:''' I have removed the RfC tag, as the topic raised by the OP is entirely unsuitable as subject matter for an RfC: RfCs are intended to be used solely to solicit feedback regarding content matters, not behavioural issues and disputes--the RfC/U process was retired by the community seven years ago for exactly this reason. Since there is no live editorial dispute identified in this "RfC" prompt, let alone a narrowly defined one with a specific proposal/solution to !vote on or otherwise engage with to the benefit of the article, this entire discussion is not only not appropriate to the process, it really ought to be hatted. I suggest that if the OP still has concerns about the conduct of other editors here, they have the option to use ] or another appropriate forum for reporting behavioural issues. Although, frankly, viewing just as much of the exchange here as regards this thread and the related dispute, I would not necessarily recommend it as I think a ] block for a combination of disruption and CIR concerns would be the most likely outcome. In short, 24.78.228.96, I would take your win on the content issue (which if I am reading the forgoing discussion correctly, was not even being blocked with regard to your preferred approach) and walk with it. ''] ]'' 12:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}


===Summary of my edits===
And if you had looked, you will see that there are an overwhelming number of references to official Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publications. ] (]) 18:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm thankful for everyone who took the time to explain the technicalities of Misplaced Pages. My intentions were never to buck the system or to misuse what I know. There used to exist an ''']''' dedicated to correcting the bias that crept into articles on religion here because there were contentious disagreements about how religion articles should be written on specific denominations because people with bias could hide behind user IDs and pretend to be in favour of improving an article while they sabotaged it with their edits. So when I read in the intro that this denominations activities were being minimized, "some news" which could mean anything rather than the Christian gospel "good news," I was struck with how what they do was being misrepresented, and I looked for help where ever I could, because it surprised me that this false bit of information and misrepresentation had been in the introduction of the article for so long, for 12 years it turns out. Whether it was added by a real JW or a false JW 12 years ago who can know. But my RfC was not about user conduct specifically. My point is the '''single most important''' bit of teaching/doctrine of this denomination had been misrepresented for a very long time, right in the introduction, and who knows how many other JW articles have this kind of sabotage in them? You can see from the above discussion that I tried to highlight that it was a concern for me, and it was just brushed under the carpet. My edit wasn't just adding an internal link, my edit wasn't just a small rewording, an addition of an internal link which had yet to be contested, but that I had to make it in the first place after 12 years. If you don't care about the correctness of the information in the article then it wouldn't matter to you that it had been wrong for 12 or so years. But the point is that all of Christianity revolves around "the good news" (AKA The Gospel) and if you take that away from Jehovah's Witnesses you're sabotaging their place as a Christian denomination, their place as Christians and Christianity. And that this article was misrepresenting an entire denomination's prime doctrine for 12 or so years, is a '''shame''' on this encyclopedia. Technically what I did may have been the wrong approach, backwards approach, but the record now exists of how my intention was received and how my points were minimized and/or twisted. Like saying it was "just a link" (paraphrase, see above) is taking what I wrote out of context by ignoring the other half. So I am thankful that this record exists, I'm sorry I'm not perfectly fluent in Misplaced Pages syntax & procedure, but I have no doubt in this case that the ends justifies the means. ] (]) 12:01, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
:You're still complaining about a perceived problem over the inclusion of a link and one word, which has already been addressed. There is no actionable request here. Just to be clear, your claim that "the '''single most important''' bit of teaching/doctrine of this denomination had been misrepresented" is completely false, as the source added 12 years ago included a quote stating very clearly that the "good news" refers to the Christian 'gospel' and not some vague general sense. Perhaps, if you imagine there to be some broad problem with the way the denomination is presented in Misplaced Pages, you could focus on what you imagine to be the most serious concern rather than this ultimately mundane oversight that has already been corrected.--] (]) 03:32, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
:I'm a bit confused here. JWs would deny that their organization is a denomination of Christianity, as they believe they are the only Christians in the universe. What most people call "Christianity" they would denounce as demonic. And they would deny that their belief system constitutes a religion. ] (]) 23:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
::As far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, it ''doesn't matter'' that JWs don't consider other Christian denominations to be 'real Christians', for the same reason that it doesn't matter that some other Christians don't consider JWs to be 'real Christians'. Your statement that "they would deny that their belief system constitutes a religion" is simply false.--] (]) 01:13, 14 December 2021 (UTC)


== God's throne in the Pleiades ==
::The article is extensively sourced, and is fair, balanced and accurate. ] (]) 19:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


:: This article is full of lies and innuendo and presented from a lopsided negative point of view and should immediately be deleted without further discussion ] (]) 20:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC) This used to be taught - should it be mentioned? I don't think it has ever been officially denied. https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/34882/our-father-who-art-pleiades --] (]) 00:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
:No. A) It's a very old teaching that wasn't particularly prevalent or highlighted even when it was taught. And B) the website you gave literally denies it in the quote from the 1953 WT. ] (]) 00:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

::It certainly isn't noteworthy in the scope of their current beliefs. However, I have added it at ].--] (]) 01:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
:: Aside from the above, the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and be accessed readily as www.watchtower.org this would be a direct link to exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, without the unnecessary biased commentary and negative use of colorful adjectives that seem to have found their way onto the Misplaced Pages version, aside from the blatant lies that are also found there.] (]) 20:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Give me one lie or innuendo. Just one. We can discuss it, hopefully come to a conclusion, and move on. ] (]) 20:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Your suggestion to add the official site was a good one, so I put it under external links. ] (]) 21:08, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
:The existence of a corporation's official website has no bearing at all on whether an article should exist on Misplaced Pages. The anonymous editor is yet to present any example of content of this article that he imagines to be "inconsistencies", "outright lies", a "page of lies", "fictitious material", "lies and innuendo", "blatant lies".
:What is ''absolutely certain'' is that no changes will happen if the editor will not indicate the specific content to which he refers. If/when he decides to elaborate, then potential issues will be addressed. It is considerably unlikely that such would warrant deletion of the entire page.--] (]) 17:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the addition of the official website doesn't magically make this article great, but it was a good idea. So I added it. Even if we are going to (hopefully) re-write some of this to have not so many JW sources for this page, an external link to the offical website makes sense. ] (]) 18:44, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
:There is no problem at all with the external link. However, the anonymous editor contends that the existence of the official site eliminates the need for this article altogether.--] (]) 18:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, well, the IP user....... ] (]) 20:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

::This first sentence is a blatant lie and is completely false. "The beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are based on the Bible teachings of Charles Taze Russell—founder of the Bible Student movement—and successive presidents of the Watch Tower Society, Joseph Franklin Rutherford and Nathan Homer Knorr." as stated This first sentence is a blatant lie and is completely false, Jehovah's Witnesses no more follow the teachings of Charles Russell or other former or even present presidents of the WTS than do the protestant religions follow the teachings of King Henry VIII.. This article is biased and short on facts and heavy on less than half truths, too many to simply start listing here, for lack of time, correct it or delete the page.] (]) 01:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

This just shows your complete ignorance of the history of your own religion. Russell founded the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and his teachings and writings were the basis for the entire religion. For example, in the March 1st, 1923 Watchtower (page 71) it explicitly states "He (Russell) did the Lord's work according to the Lord's way. If, then, Brother Russell did the work in the Lord's way, any other way of doing it is contrary to the Lord's Way and therefore could not be a faithful looking after the interests of the Lord's kingdom." If you read that, (which I doubt you will) you'll understand that that's saying "do it his way or you're wrong". Rutherford had so much power that he was able to completely ignore the legal will (as in the dying document) of Russell, and according to the Watchtower, June 15th, 1938, single handedly ELIMINATED the editorial committee of the Watchtower over an article he wanted published: "...but, by the Lord's grace, it was published, and that really marked the beginning of the end of the editorial committee, indicating that the Lord himself is running his organization". As for Knorr, all he had was complete control of the WTBTS. Yeah, totally not true. Read your own religious publications why don't you. ] (]) 01:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Jehovah's Witnesses are a relatively new religion. Their set of beliefs didn't come out of thin air. The WTS has repeatedly related how Russell arrived at certain beliefs and then began expounding them in his books and ''Zions' Watch Tower'' magazine. Many were modified over time, but today's set of beliefs come, without question, from those Russell taught and Rutherford and Knorr later "adjusted". Your suggestion that the entire page, much of which is drawn directly from WTS publications, be deleted is ludicrous. ] (]) 01:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:::The anonymous editor needs to read ''Jehovah's Witnesses&mdash;Proclaimers of God's Kingdom'', wherein it is clearly outlined that JWs' beliefs developed from the teachings of Charles Taze Russell. Of course, many of their teachings have changed since then, and that is not in dispute. The fact remains that their beliefs are ''based'' on Russell's teachings. It seems ludicrous that a JW would even dispute that.
:::Perhaps the anonymous editor should move this discussion on to the next point that he believes to be a 'blatant lie'.--] (]) 01:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

:Here's some food for thought for you guys
(Matthew 25:41-46) 41 “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.’ 44 Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”] (]) 01:34, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:This has nothing to do with the discussion, and at best is some kind of weak religious 'threat'. Please present the next point in the article that you believe to be a 'blatant lie'.--] (]) 01:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

::Change the first lie first, then we can more on to additional points of interest in the article, otherwise, I will find out how to formally request this pages deletion and request it. And neither is a threat, only a promise.( Here's a hint for you, Jehovah's Witnesses follow the teachings laid out in the bible, they follow Jesus Christ and serve him and the creator of the universe, Jehovah, who is the only God in existence. They don't believe in following any "man", but believe what is stated at (Psalm 146:3-4) 3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. 4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.] (]) 02:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:::*** jv chap. 5 p. 42 Proclaiming the Lord’s Return (1870-1914) ***
::::FOLLOWING those words Charles Taze Russell proceeded to outline the developments that led to his publishing ''Millennial Dawn'' (later called ''Studies in the Scriptures'') and ''Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence'' (now known as ''The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom''). This history is '''of special interest to Jehovah’s Witnesses'''. Why? '''Because their present understanding of Bible truths and their activities can be traced back to the 1870’s and the work of C. T. Russell and his associates''', and from there to the Bible and early Christianity.
:::Now please move on to the next statement that you believe to be a 'blatant lie'.--] (]) 02:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
I was totally correct, you didn't read a thing. This is why your AfD is going to be summarily dismissed. ] (]) 02:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:No AfD has been raised for this article.--] (]) 02:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh ik. But he will as soon as he learns how. He'll raise it just to "prove a point" about how the "anti-JW group" that we are a part of (by the way, why didn't you tell me I was in this group? are there benefits?) is providing false information, and when he does it'll be dismissed. ] (]) 02:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:He's added an AfD template to the article, which is only the first part of the process. If/when he completes the process, I think it will be fairly short-lived.--] (]) 02:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::It's submitted for deletion, so make the page more realistic and closer to true, of I will not give up on this point] (]) 12:30 pm, Today (UTC+10)
:However, if he wishes to proceed with the AfD nomination, he'll need to register a username or provide a very convincing argument at Talk. The AfD template states: "Unregistered users placing this tag on an article cannot complete the deletion nomination and should leave detailed reasons for deletion on ]. If the nomination is not completed and no message is left on the talkpage, this tag '''may be removed'''."--] (]) 02:31, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Yet another example of not reading the information available. As for you, IP user, you "not giving up on this point" is irrelevant, because you have yet to make one. We have given you documented (by your own religion no less, not even secondary) sources that prove that the only point that you have argued (which, to refresh your memory, is that "This first sentence is a blatant lie and is completely false. "The beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are based on the Bible teachings of Charles Taze Russell—founder of the Bible Student movement—and successive presidents of the Watch Tower Society, Joseph Franklin Rutherford and Nathan Homer Knorr.") is wrong. ] (]) 02:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Do you honestly think I cannot create a user account? really? I'm trying to be reasonable, the three of you are trying to be obstinate, all I'm asking is for this slanted page full of half truths and innuendo to be made less biased, you guys are the ones who wish to keep it as a page that simply attacks witnesses. Do you really think that I wouldn't like a page on Misplaced Pages that honestly explained Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs? Seriously? I just want the page to be true, not slanted to such a state that it is unrealistic. And Jeffro 77, I've been a baptized witness for over 2 decades, I know more about what Witnesses believe than you seem to think. ] (]) 02:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Considering that several editors, including myself, have previously ''recommended'' that you create a user account, I don't see the prospect as especially threatening. So far, the only specific claim you've made about the article is shown to be false from JW publications. Please present the next statement in the article that you believe to be a 'blatant lie'.
::::I don't really care how long you've been baptised, and 'time baptised' doesn't necessarily equal a specific amount of knowledge anyway. However, you have ''demonstrated'' that your knowledge of your religion might not be as good as you might like to think.--] (]) 02:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

If you can create an account, please do so, it would make everything SOOOO much easier. As for this particular debate, the whole thing started with me ASKING (practically BEGGING) you to give me just one thing that was a "lie" or "false". Finally, just now, you gave the first sentence. That's a start. But, when you were given '''documented sources''' '''''from''' the religion you claim you have been in for over two decades'', that state, enequivocally, that your assumption is wrong, instead of discussing it, or challenging it with other sources, all you continue to say is that it's a lie. Misplaced Pages is not interested in YOUR version of the truth. Back up your claims with SOURCES. Do you have a new book from the WTBTS that says "Actually, in fact, our religion is not based on the teachings of CTR"? If so, then please provide it, as I would love to read it. ] (]) 02:49, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not really clear what the anonymous editor expects of other editors. Are we supposed to ''guess'' which parts of the article he imagines to be biased??--] (]) 02:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

:Jeffro 77, since you "know" Jehovah's Witnesses so well, you likely already know what parts are biased, and since blackcab, claims to have been an elder and to have given "thousands" of talks on the TMS(which I don't believe after comments he's made showing a lack of comprehension on certain things any witness would know) he should also know, and the only one I have doubts about is ], because I don't know how much he ever understood as a child and how much he listened when his parents took him to meetings or during home and personal bible study periods to which he would have become exposed, so he may not have as much of an understanding as you two seem to indicate you do.. Anyway correct the page, I am willing to help, but at this point you don't seem to genuinely wish to correct it, therefore I don't trust that you will make a real effort, thus the request for deletion] (]) 03:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::Other editors do not need to speculate about what you ''might'' be unhappy with, based on ''your'' judgements of those other editors. ''You'' are the one disputing article content. It is ''your'' responsibility to raise the specific issues at Talk.--] (]) 03:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your concern IP user, but believe me, I don't argue for/against anything that I don't have a good knowledge in. As for THIS discussion, I am still waiting for an answer to my plea: what is wrong with this article? You've given one point, which has been replied to with documented source evidence. What is your counter reply? (That's what's known as a "dicussion".) ] (]) 03:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

So far, the anonymous editor hasn't ''discussed'' anything. Sources have been presented for the ''single'' point he ''has'' raised, and the editor's response is basically ]. You ''must'' do one of the following for improvement of the article to proceed:
* If you ''have not'' accepted the responses to the point you have raised, based on the JW sources that have been provided, present your specific counter-arguments (from reliable sources) to the explicit statements from JW literature that indicate JW beliefs to be based on the teachings of C. T. Russell.
* If you ''have'' accepted the responses to the point you have raised, present what you believe to be the next specific problem with the article.
If you refuse to do either of these things, it is unlikely the article will be changed. Of course, there is also the principle of ], wherein you may make an edit ''first'', and then ''discuss''. However, if you edit against ''concensus'', your changes will not be retained. Similarly, if you make disputed changes, and ''refuse'' to discuss, your changes will be reverted, and if you continue, your actions will be reported.--] (]) 03:39, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
**Well, from the looks of it, this AfD nomination was made in bad faith, just because he ]. It's unlikely that the deletion discussion would continue (even if it did, it would soon be closed as speedy or snow keep), so is it alright to remove the template now or not yet? ] (]) 06:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
:I was thinking of giving him 24 hours or so to make his case, but I won't strenuously object if there is consensus to remove it sooner.--] (]) 06:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
::The anonymous editor appears to have comprehension problems. He criticises me for having claimed on my ] that I was an elder and that I had given thousands of talks on the theocratic ministry school. In fact my user page contains no such claims. I was a ministerial servant and over my two decades of membership gave hundreds of talks. ] (]) 07:13, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

==Chronology==
Should there be a section on this? It seems at variance with other literalist interpretations. '']&nbsp;]'', <small>16:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC).</small><br />
:Maybe, but see Eschatology section of the article.--] (]) 09:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

==Nomination for deletion==
I had to agree with the anonymous user above, this page seems to be highly slighted against witnesses, so I went ahead and completed the deletion request for the page for the anonymous user, since they weren't able to do so themselves. The page certainly does not adhere to] and could use an objective edit from non-biased editors, unfortunately, I don't have the time or experience to commit to such a project myself.] (]) 03:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

::Thank you for completing this for me, though I see someone undid the nomination for deletion, I undid it and if someone reverts it again, I will find out how to report them and do so] (]) 19:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I would love to know how you think this article is slighted, seeing as how you are a newly registered user with 0 edits other than agreeing with the anonymous IP users deletion request? Also, if you feel it is slanted, please give us examples. The anonymous IP user gave us one example of a sentence he thought was slanted against JW's, and when given documented source evidence, didn't counter-argue. ] (]) 05:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
:So that this information will be at your fingertips
{{hat}}
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There are no forbidden words or expressions on Misplaced Pages, but certain expressions should be used with care, because they may introduce bias. For example, the word claim is an expression of doubt and can imply that a statement is incorrect, such as: John claimed he had not eaten the pie. Using loaded words such as these may make an article appear to favor one position over another. Try to state the facts more simply without using loaded words; for example, John said, "I did not eat the pie." Strive to eliminate expressions that are flattering, disparaging, vague, or clichéd, or that endorse a particular point of view (unless those expressions are part of a quote from a noteworthy source).

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Biased statements of opinion can only be presented with attribution. For instance, "John Doe is the best baseball player" expresses an opinion and cannot be asserted in Misplaced Pages as if it were a fact. It can be included as a factual statement about the opinion: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre." Opinions must still be verifiable and appropriately cited.
Another approach is to specify or substantiate the statement, by giving those details that actually are factual. For example: "John Doe had the highest batting average in the major leagues from 2003 through 2006." People may still argue over whether he was the best baseball player. But they will not argue over this.
Avoid the temptation to rephrase biased or opinion statements with weasel words, for example, "Many people think John Doe is the best baseball player." But Who? and How many? are natural objections. An exception is situations where a phrase such as "Most people think" can be supported by a reliable source, such as in the reporting of a survey of opinions within the group.] (]) 19:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
{{hab}}
:See here is the problem,you guys ask that I point out what is wrong with the page, yet as I attempt to do so you disruptively revert the page EVEN as I attempt to do as you ask, this is why this page and all pages linked to it need to be deleted] (]) 19:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Again, you guys don't wish that the page be correct, you wish only that the page bash Jehovah's Witnesses. I go editing it as you requested, so you protect the page from edits like the unreasonable people you have shown yourselves to be] (]) 19:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

::::'''"I point out what is wrong with the page..."'' Except that you didn't. You have charged through the article, removing sourced statements without discussion. Everyone is aware of the NPOV policy, so there is no benefit in pasting it here. Learn to collaborate. Even communicating with you is difficult, because you continue to edit from a range of IP addresses. ] (]) 20:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I wish to thank you, IP user, for letting me know of policies to which I have been adhering to for about 4 years now. You're obvious mastery of WP guidelines never fails to amaze me. However, simply quoting the policies and not giving specific examples as to what VIOLATES those policies is not "pointing out what is wrong with the page". Also, removing sourced statements without discussion is not editing, it is removing what ]. ] (]) 20:17, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

::Ray Franz is the very definition of a ] source, and you guys seem to allow yourselves to remove sources all the time that you yourselves determine to be ] without any evidence at all other than your own meandering opinion, By the way, I got an user id like I promised. I hope it makes you happy, personally it seems somewhat unnecessary to me. I tried to edit the page as Jeffro 77 suggested, only to have you guys revert the edits before I could complete them to show you what was objectionable material. It seems your offer to let me do that wasn't made in good faith, then you got one of your friend to protect the page to keep me from finishing, which seems to be a little childish from my point of view.] (]) 01:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Once again, may I commend you on your excellent knowledge of Misplaced Pages guidelines. If I may though, I recommend you check out ]. You can see that Ray Franz meets the criteria of a reliable source. His book, Crisis of Conscience (excellent read by the way, you should try it sometime), which I would guess is one of the most heavily referenced, meets the criteria of "material from reliable non-academic sources". It also meets (if you still insist on calling it fringe) "a fringe theory can be considered notable enough for a dedicated article if it has been referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or ''by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory.''" Both historian James Penton and sociologist Andrew Holden have praised this book.

And while I may be wrong, I don't recall Jeffro77 asking you to edit this page. I recall both him and myself asking you for what you believed were "lies", you giving us '''one''', and then when we gave you our documented, sourced evidence and (this next part is going to be all caps because to be honest I don't know if you've even paid attention so far) ALL OF THAT DOCUMENTED, SOURCED EVIDENCE COMES FROM YOUR OWN RELIGIOUS PUBLICATIONS. It is not taken out of context. It is not two words of quotes followed by ten words of my interpretation of the rest of the source. It is quoted, verbatim.

As for "one of my friends" to protect the page, while I can't speak for Jeffro or BlackCab, I had never heard of ] until you mentioned it just now, and so I went back and looked to see who had put the semi-protection tag on.

And actually yes I'm quite happy that you got a user ID. It just makes things so much simpler. ] (]) 02:51, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

:::It doesn't seem simpler from my end, now I've had to go setting up a talk page and a page telling about myself and things I just have little interest in, but if it makes you guys happier, by the way, the person that finished off the deletion request was a friend of mine, I told him not to bother, but he insisted on doing it anyway after reading the page for a little bit, so I guess I'm not the only one who thinks you guys are driven by bias, as he referred to the page as a bunch of drivel. Also, I will forgo reading Ray Franz's propaganda of bitterness, since I have lived in the same area as he for the last 25 years, I could have spoken to him personally any time I chose, like towards the end of his life when he made it clear that he wished for his wife to be re-instated into the organization. I can only assume that his own apostasy left him in a position where felt much like Judas Iscariot] (]) 03:11, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

::::And this is why you get nowhere. Your personal dislike for Ray Franz is irrelevant. You appear to be simply incapable of comprehending the simple fact that if you were to argue your opinion with sources, make a good faith attempt to truly change the article for the better, you would probably have had some of this re-written by now. As for your friend, who cares? He has yet to say a word other than creating an account specifically to try and get this page deleted. I'm afraid that your religious beliefs have blinded you to the simple decorum that is needed when two people are in disagreement. '''I will ask again''', provide evidence in the form of documented, sourced references. Otherwise, all you are doing is wasting the time that you could be using to promote your religion. Becuase lets be perfectly honest here. Anyone who has absolutely no opinion one way or the other about JW's is going to read what you have been saying so far and assume that all JW's must be as unwilling to have a decent, respectable conversation as you are. Which is not at all true. I've known many JW's, and the vast majority are '''''tremendous people'''''. However, you are giving your religion a bad name because of the fact that you refuse to discuss. You are acting like a petulant child who can't get his way no matter how much he screams and cries that "it's not fair!" Have some respect. If not for your own image, than at least for the image of your religion. ] (]) 03:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

:To refresh your memory
If you refuse to do either of these things, it is unlikely the article will be changed. Of course, there is also the principle of WP:BRD, wherein you may make an edit first, and then discuss. However, if you edit against concensus, your changes will not be retained. Similarly, if you make disputed changes, and refuse to discuss, your changes will be reverted, and if you continue, your actions will be reported.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:39, 11 December 2011 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:OK. And? ] states "
:1.BE BOLD, and make what you currently believe to be the optimal change. (any change will do, but it is easier and wiser to proceed based on your best effort.)
:2.Wait until someone reverts your edit. You have now discovered a Most Interested Person.
:3.Discuss the changes you would like to make with this Most Interested Person, perhaps using other forms of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution as needed, and reach a compromise."

:You have done the first two of those (without any even attempt at a discussion beforehand I might add). Now do number three. DISCUSS.

:Oh, and please don't forget to sign your posts. I thought Jeffro had posted that for a second. ] (]) 03:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:: I try to remember, but like I have said, I'm kinda new at this.] (]) 03:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Still, it tells you I added it, so I dont understand the confusion] (]) 03:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Wow! I never realised it was so easy to make friends! All I need to do is... well... nothing. Anyone who reverts some biased JW editor is apparently instantly my friend by default.
::::There is no obligation for editors to create their own User page, or even their own User Talk page. ''Any'' editor can initially create another editor's User Talk page when the need arises. That therefore did not make anything less simple for you.
::::If you continue to behave in the same way as you have behaved anonymously, you will be reported. Hopefully you will now begin to contribute meaningfully, by ''discussing'' rather than simply ''objecting'' or ''hacking out parts of the article mid-sentence''.--] (]) 10:02, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

== Edit made to the introduction ==

I have edited the introduction to this page to provide more balance and less ] ]

If you would care to discuss this edit, please feel free to do so '''HERE'''.] (]) 02:42, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

:Your edit just doesn't work, and here's why.
:*The introductory sentence attempts to describe the religion, not the subject of the article.
:*The statement that ''they base their beliefs solely on the principles found in the Holy Bible'' is entirely a matter of opinion, easily contested and not substantiated.
:*The statement that they ''view the first-century Christian congregation as model for the current day organizational structure of their Christian congregations throughout the world'' is true in that that's their opinion (absurd as it is ... first century Christians had no corporation, board of directors, branch officers, elaborate hierarachical structure and detailed handbook of disciplinary procedures) but probably not so important that it needs to be in the intro.
:*It also inexplicably removes the statement -- important for casual readers -- of how their quite distinct set of beliefs developed.
:I have reverted your edit. Please discuss further changes here. ] (]) 03:33, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
::In response to your claim that I am making an attempt at deception re sources, let me elaborate: an organisation's claim about itself clearly does not meet Misplaced Pages standards of reliability. If Donald Trump was to announce on his website that he was the greatest businessman in American history, it would clearly not be acceptable as a source for such a statement of fact in an encyclopedia. Likewise, when the Watch Tower Society declares in the ''Kingdom Ministry'' that its beliefs are based solely on the principles found in the Holy Bible, that is not acceptable. No author of any academic study of the religion has made such a claim. All make plain that its doctrines have evolved from the millenarian teachings of Charles Taze Russell, with significant changes introduced by his successor, Joseph Rutherford.
::There is no biblical support, for example, that at Armageddon God will kill everyone in the world except JWs, no biblical support for the claim that in 1918 Jesus chose the Watch Tower Society as his one true organization on earth; no theologians have supported the WTS's peculiar view that God forbids the practice of medical blood transfusions of human blood; and there is no biblical support for the practise of shunning those who choose to formally resign from that religion because they see through the deception. Please understand that Misplaced Pages articles depend on verifiable facts drawn from third-party sources. ] (]) 06:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

== This is an attack page/Neutrality is disputed ==

I have posted a message in talk at Misplaced Pages Project: Jehovah's Witnesses requesting that anyone wishing to address what I feel is blatantly an attack page to make it adhere to ] ] and ] discuss proposed changes here: ] (]) 18:34, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

:This talk page is the appropriate place to discuss changes to this article. You are very clearly not going to succeed in having this page deleted, and your claim that it is an ] is quite patently stupid. Tagging it as such attracted the immediate attention of an admin, who deleted the tag as inappropriate. You therefore need to ''work to improve the page'' if you think it has errors or misrepresentations.
:You have tagged the page as being biased and also being a coatrack article, yet you have not added a word of explanation or elaboration here so your views can be discussed. Can you please therefore '''list and discuss''' the specific points you think need to be addressed. Only then can a sensible solution be reached. ] (]) 23:10, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
::Agreed with BlackCab. ] (]) 23:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
:::Willietell (previously editing as various anonymous IPs) has been requested repeatedly to indicate what he believes to be specific problems with the article, and he has repeatedly refused to do so. He has even stated outright that he just expects people to know which parts of the article he thinks is biased.
:::He has said that this section is for discussion of those points, so he is now expected to raise those points that he believes need to be addressed. If he continues to refuse to do so, he should be reported for disruptive behaviour.--] (]) 00:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
This seems really familiar........] (]) 04:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

===Willietell to indicate specific neutrality concerns===
Sorry guys, but my schedule is kind of tight right now and I will not have much Wiki time until the middle of next week, then I will start to address some of these issues, which are so numerous that they will take more than one sitting.] (]) 03:36, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

:Incredible. ] (]) 05:47, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
::As the only objecting editor has indicated he has no immediate intention of stating any specific objections, I have removed the tags for the time being. If/when any actual concerns are raised, the relevant template(s) can be applied to the article.--] (]) 05:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

'''The beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are based on the Bible teachings of Charles Taze Russell—founder of the Bible Student movement—and successive presidents of the Watch Tower Society, Joseph Franklin Rutherford and Nathan Homer Knorr.'''

:This statement violates ] and misrepresents the cited source . It is a false statement, as the Witnesses beliefs are no more based on the teachings of Charles Russell than the Protestants beliefs are based on the teaching of King Henry VIII. The beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are based on their understanding of the bible, as is duly noted at their official web site, so accurate information is available, therefore it should and MUST be used. To do otherwise calls into question the neutrality of the page.

''' Since 1976 all doctrinal decisions have been made by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, a group of elders at the religion's Brooklyn headquarters.'''

:This statement is not properly sourced material and constitutes ]. Which calls into question ].

'''Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the present age of human existence is about to be terminated with the direct intervention of God, who will use Jesus Christ to fully establish his heavenly government over earth, destroying existing human governments and non-Witnesses,'''

:This statement misrepresents the cited source material , and does so in such a way as to make a false statement, Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that ''human existence'' is about to be terminated, but exactly the opposite, that man will live ''forever'' on the earth. This statement therefore violates ] as well as misrepresenting the source material.

'''All members of the religion are expected to take an active part in preaching.'''

:This statement is unsourced and therefore constitutes original research. It is, while somewhat accurate, nevertheless expressed in a negative way, and leaves out important aspects surrounding what exactly is meant by the word ''expected''. A more truthful statement would say that , "Witnesses are encouraged to engage in the preaching work to the extent that their individual circumstances allow" therefore, this statement is a ] because it disguises its purpose, which is presenting Jehovah's Witnesses and their support of the preaching work in a negative light, which also violates ].

'''(the approximately 10,800 "anointed" Jehovah's Witnesses), which Witnesses believe is used by Christ as a channel for God's progressive revelations and to direct Christians on biblical matters.'''

:This statement is misleading and misrepresents the source material, as Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that all of those professing to be "anointed" are used to "channel...progressive revelations" and "to direct Christians in biblical matters", there are in fact, those who profess to be "anointed" who serve in christian congregations only as publishers of the good news of God's Kingdom along with their brothers and sisters who do not profess to be "anointed" and have little to do with organizational matters. This statement therefore is not only incorrect, unrepresentative of the source material, but also disguises it's purpose, which is to make a misleading and disparaging remark about Jehovah's Witnesses, thus violating not only ] but ] as well.

'''Governing Body seeks neither advice nor approval from any "anointed" Witnesses other than high-ranking members at the Brooklyn headquarters.'''

:This statement misrepresents cited source material while using source material that is ] and biased as it comes from a disfellowshiped ex-member with questionable motives, source material from such individuals violate ] as the author has an obvious conflict of interest. The statement is also presented in a disparaging way, Violating ] and ]

'''Watch Tower Society publications claim that doctrinal changes and refinements result from a process of progressive revelation, in which God gradually reveals his will and purpose to some headquarters staff.'''

:Use of the word "claim" violates ] and creates an unnecessarily negative tone, the extension to the sentence "to some headquarters staff" is misleading and misrepresents the source, serving as a disparaging remark and making the entire sentence a ].

'''The religion makes no provision for members to criticize or contribute to official teachings'''

:This statement is misleading, as the articles found in "The Watchtower" under the heading "Questions from Readers" clearly show that concerns of those who have questions regarding doctrinal matters are regularly addressed and therefore this statement, while sourced, is clearly false, therefore in the interests of adhering to ] a rebuttal statement should be included to balance the viewpoint expressed.

'''Members who promote privately-developed teachings contrary to those of the Governing Body may be expelled and shunned.'''

:Statement misrepresents source , however the statement is rooted in truth, but presented in a one-sided manner, thus making is fail to adhere to ] and teetering on the verge of violating ]. A rebuttal giving Jehovah's Witnesses position on why members may be disfellowshiped would be needed to adhere to ], the information was available in source, however it was not presented, making the sentence biased and fail to adhere to ] and teeter on the edge of becoming a ]

This completes the first section, as this is long article, it cannot reasonably be addressed in its entirety in one sitting, so other elements of concern will be addressed in a progressive manner.] (]) 17:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

===Willietell to indicate 'coatrack' concerns===
Dito.] (]) 03:37, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:54, 21 September 2024

Articles for deletionThis article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was speedy keep.
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Very important thing to mention!

Consubstantiality is usually the superficial merger of the trinity, but Jehovah Witnesses don't accept the trinity. Ok with that. But consubstantiality - Greek: to homoousion means also that the person-god Jehovah the father alone is internally non divisible - doesn't have internal constituents.

Some people say he has, some say no. Is the second definition (not about the trinity) of the ομοούσιον accepted officially by the Jehovah Witnesses? Add data about the innate consubstantiality of the person-god Jehovah as interpreted officially by the Jehovah Witnesses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:411B:BA00:B547:9A81:559A:8897 (talk) 15:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

JWs have no position themselves on "consubstantiality", which is a subset of trinitarian belief, other than that they don't believe in it. It is not necessary for this article to elaborate on JW views of Catholic views.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:12, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Memorial partakers

There used to be statistics in the annual yearbook about those who chose to partake in the Memorial. This might be worth mentioning, since only the annointed can partake. The statistics stopped being published a few years ago. 2001:1970:5A9F:C200:F16C:D508:FF47:6FBE (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

No, the memorial partakers figures are still published annually on the official website as part of annual "Grand Totals". I'm not sure it's necessary for this article to elaborate on specific details of how many partakers there may be, as this article is a more general article about their beliefs.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
It would be interesting because according to Watchtower teaching, partakers have to be born again, and being born again ended in the late 1930s. In other words, no one has been born again since then. This is part of their end times teaching, so it would be interesting to see if the numbers are in fact going down. --2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:28EF:2259:6821:F44A (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
That view was changed in 2007, and it is not current JW belief that only people born prior to the 1930s can be 'anointed'. Aside from that, the number claiming to be 'anointed' has indeed increased every year since 2005, but that doesn't bear directly on this article, particularly since the Watch Tower Society itself says that some 'partakers' may not 'really' be 'anointed'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Well nothing has been established as for the information above.All of us who know the Religion ,know the reasons why sometimes information change.i hope many of us here are just ignorant If for reasons of not knowing some information.It would be sad and selfish if someone is twisting information knowingly.
I can see Jehovah witness dont establish all believes and it's for a reason,to those of you who don't know!That reason is ,they fully believe in the bible but they don't trust themselves(truly humble(bible teaching into consideration)and they know their own judgement can be false. That means if something is established by them they have looked the information over and over again.Then they publish it and show it to the public.Intresting of all things ,we can backtrack all their believes and doings.Understanding is key
.I'm not a Jehovah witness.I have a non biased opinion just like this page. 104.173.37.138 (talk) 15:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
You don't seem to be suggesting anything relevant to article content. This Talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not providing general opinions or speculation about JWs. See also WP:FORUM.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Accusation of bias

After adding an innocuous wikilink to this article, an IP editor 24.78.228.96 (talk · contribs) claimed at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion#Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs that the previous absence of the wikilink is an example of "glaring bias". The page where the IP editor complained is a defunct WikiProject and is therefore unlikely to get much response there. I have therefore copied the existing discussion from there below.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

24.78.228.96 (talk · contribs), I must confess I am confused. Your internal wikilink is still present and the only edit Jeffro77 (talk · contribs) made was to remove the underscore. That edit didn't change the internal link or even render it inert. Your added link is still there, it still works, there was no attempt to "wipe it away". What is the problem here? I would also like it to be known that 24.78.228.96 (talk · contribs) has posted on a semi-retired user's talk page, questioning to move of this discussion. Jthekid15 (talk) 11:32, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
You’re right to be confused. They seem to believe that the previous absence of the wikilink constitutes some fundamental attack on Christianity. Their personal attack in the discussion below is quite odd too. My removal of the underscore from the link was made a few hours after their initial complaint and was entirely incidental cleanup.—Jeffro77 (talk) 11:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Did you realise it is possible to Google-search for questions about Witness's believe. Select sources at: WOL.JW.ORG and find out what they believe from them, not those who hate them.
The Witnesses not 'fooled', but are kind, happy people.
Folks owe it to themselves to search for truth, and avoid hate talk. OzarkJohnny (talk) 15:58, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
You don't seem to be suggesting any change to the article. Aside from that, I could also ask the (hypothetical) creepy guy who drives his van around schools to find out what he says about himself too. So why should people restrict themselves only to your preferred denomination's website rather than get a third-party perspective?--Jeffro77 Talk 01:52, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion copied from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion#Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs

I can't believe that after all this time there is bias in these articles and twisting of the facts and truth. I start reading and right in the second paragraph some one has added a note about some dissemination of some news. This isn't some news that no one else is talking about that can be glossed over like that. There are bible translations out there that use the very phrase " The Good News" because it refers to The Gospel, that every Christian denomination refers to. So I changed it to what it should be and even added and internal link to the article for "The Gospel" which says in the first line, also referred to as "The Good News." These are the diffs. And I am worried that this twisting of the facts by omission is shows a glaring bias. And I request that it be observed for a period, placed on a watch list, or whatever is official done at this project. Thank you. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 06:50, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

It seems as though you may be over-reacting. You added a wikilink to the article, which was uncontested. It is not clear how the previous absence of that one wikilink indicates any 'twisting of facts', nor is it clear what other 'glaring bias' you're alluding to. You have not attempted to engage anyone at the article's Talk page regarding your concerns.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:34, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
There he is, the man himself. I would want a second opinion on absolutely anything you have to say. As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern. I'm glad you're here to minimize that point, which also vindicates my concern. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 16:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
And if the hypothetical boogeyman you've invented shows up, you can discuss their objections on the article's Talk page. The absence of a single wikilink that was overlooked because the context was already clear is not the conspiracy you imagine it to be. Apart from your pointless rhetoric here, there is no problem at all with the change you made to the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:00, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
The term "good news", without a wikilink, was first introduced into the text of the original article Beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses by AuthorityTam (talk · contribs), a pro-JW editor, on 2 April 2009. Elements of the subject relating to beliefs were split to Beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses on 14 August 2010, with the same wording retained, and the article was renamed Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs later the same day. The context of the statement apparently seemed obvious to the editor who added the phrase and subsequent editors. At no point was a wikilink added to the term in question and then subsequently removed due to any supposed 'bias'.
If you have any legitimate concerns of bias to discuss regarding the article, please start a section at the article's Talk page.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:42, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
I have reviewed every change made to the lead of the article in question. Apart from occasional section or page blanking by vandals (some being JW supporters trying to redirect traffic to the denomination's website), the only change made to the term "good news" in the lead was one removal of the quotations marks around the term on 23 December 2014, which was reverted the same day. But if the IP editor won't take my word for it, they are welcome to review the history of the article themselves and point out any instance where the absent wikilink was supposedly added and then removed due to some imagined 'bias'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
As I've already said, when I came across the article, the term "The Good News" (as a reference to Gospel's purpose, of every Christian denomination) was NOT there. What was there was written as some diminished less maybe local joke of a new, which is a smear and a slight on this religion. No proverbial wheelbarrel full of distraction you bring into this can change that. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
More than happy to hear whether other contributors here, or at the article’s Talk page where you should have raised your objection, agree with your novel reasoning on this matter.—Jeffro77 (talk) 23:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
I would also add that Jehovah's Witnesses do not capitalise the term "good news" (even when referring to the gospel). Additionally, the original editor who added the term included an extended quotation (which is still present 12 years later) in the supporting citation showing the use of "good news" explicitly in the context of Christian "proselytizing" (and the cited source explicitly explains that no negative connotation of the term "proselytize" is meant). The wikilink that has been added (which the IP editor imagines will be attacked for some bizarre reason) is entirely appropriate, but its absence was by no stretch of the imagination any attempt at 'smearing Christianity'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:14, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

(1) "smearing Christianity" is not what I wrote, either you don't understand my point, you are pretending not to understand my point, or just twisting my words right in plain sight.
(2) "posted on a semi-retired user's talk page" is relevant only if you ignore that all those names are still on the project participant list.
24.78.228.96 (talk) 11:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Your exact words were “smear and a slight on this religion” and paraphrasing as ‘smearing Christianity’ is accurate. (Jehovah's Witnesses is a denomination of Christianity which is a religion. I am not responsible for your possible misuse of the terms.) I’m not interested in childish semantic debates. It remains the case that your accusations and personal attacks are entirely unfounded. If you have any legitimate concerns of bias in the article, present them.Jeffro77 (talk) 11:56, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
User:Jeffro77, You are false, and your accusation of semantics is false, I wrote my statement on the "Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs" page not the "Christianity" page, so you paraphrasing is exactly what I called it, "twisting my words." If I'm writing "this religion" on a Jehovah's Witness talkpage, you can't reinterpret it as all of Christianity, that's your falsehood not my semantics. You've managed to double down on your tunnel vision this time, the first time was not bothering to note that any old news is not the Good News. 24.78.228.96 (talk)
This entire ‘dispute’ exists only in your own mind. I already indicated in a previous response to your unfounded personal attack that the context of the ‘good news’ in the article was clearly in reference to ‘the gospel’ and not ‘news’ generically. I’m sorry that you’re so disheartened by the absence of a wikilink that someone other than me failed to add when they made a change 12 years ago, but unless you can provide me with a time machine, there is nothing I can do about it. Just calm down.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:43, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I hadn't realised that you had sent out a Group Notice when I saw your change from the 'Recent Changes' list. Due to the large edit size and the summary only being 'gn' it looked suspiciously like vandalism. I caution you that you must assume good faith WP:GF, we are not trying to silence you or twist your words, we are confused as to your actions. Your edit still stands, the link still works, please explain what the problem is more clearly.
Side-note:
If you're looking to get more involved with a religion wikiproject then I recommend WP:X or WP:RELI as they are much more active and not listed as 'Defunct'. You can continue to contribute towards WP:NPOV and help reduce bias while being in a more active environment. I also recommend that you create an account, this is so your edits are tied to a single source as IP addresses for editors often change. Learn more about why creating an account is helpful at WP:LOGIN.
Jthekid15 (talk) 12:06, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

RfC about conduct at this Religious Article's talkpage

No content dispute, no actionable result.
Twelve years ago an editor wrote disseminating "good news". An IP editor changed it to disseminating "the good news". They made various allegations of deception/bias, and asserted that their edit would be opposed. There is apparently unanimous agreement that the edit is an improvement, and there is thus no content dispute here. An RFC to request to "review of the conduct" on a talk page is inappropriate. Conduct issues may be raised at WP:ANI. However the IP editor should be aware that there appears to be unanimous agreement of five editors (including myself) that the only conduct issue here was the assumption and assertion of deception/bias/conflict by the IP editor. Any conduct complaints at WP:ANI or elsewhere are likely to reach the same conclusion. I advise them to review our conduct guideline: WP:Assume good faith. Alsee (talk) 08:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I would like a review of the conduct at this Religious Article's talkpage? The policy tag is there for a broader more neutral request
in this spirit of this project where things started. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

  • Concerned: My request is vindicated by false accusations, such as "vandalism" for messaging project members. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 21:15, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I have (briefly) reviewed the conduct on the article, as well as on this, its talk page, of the IP user 24.78.228.96, and at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion. I did all this solely because I saw an RfC notice here. My assessment is that nothing terrible has happened, except that 24.78.228.96 appears to be unduly incensed that a two-word phrase was never linked to a WP target page. 24.78.228.96 added the link, addressing the situation, causing no complaints or negative reactions by anybody on the planet, and still: 24.78.228.96 has fussed, complained, argued, sneered at or even attacked another user and started an (IMO) unnecessary RfC.My advice would be for IP user 24.78.228.96 to calm down, maybe even take a short break, then look over their actions and try to see that what we've got here is a whole lot of overreaction by an IP user, and a whole lot of calm discipline on the part of the other (logged-in) editors. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 22:46, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
    • I too have (slightly more than briefly, but not in-depth) looked at this conversation (as far as I can follow it). There is no actual problem to look at, despite the fact that the IP is requesting someone look at it. The edit is still in (a wiki-link of all things), and was never challenged. It appears their complaint is that it wasn't wiki-linked already. Jeffro clearly explained that it was simply an oversight when the edits to the page were originally made ("The context of the statement apparently seemed obvious to the editor who added the phrase and subsequent editors. At no point was a wikilink added to the term in question and then subsequently removed due to any supposed 'bias'."). The IP appears to be wanting an RFC because they THINK that something that hasn't occurred (the removal of their wiki-link) will occur at some point ("As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern."). This appears to be completely pointless on every level.
    • One final note on the "attack" that can be seen via the link in JohnFromPinckney's above post: I do not believe it rises to the level of an actual attack. Declaring that you would want a second opinion because you don't trust the first person's is certainly rude and childish, but does not constitute an attack IMO. Unless there is another more blatant personal attack that the IP has done elsewhere that I have missed, I say we simply dismiss the RFC. Vyselink (talk) 00:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
It was a personal attack, as the wording was specifically targeted at me rather than a general statement about wanting a second opinion, though the specific motivation is unclear. However, the attack is trivial and as it is unlikely the editor will apologise, it can simply be ignored at this point unless the behaviour continues.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment - aside from spamming the former participants of the defunct WikiProject indicated previously (causing some degree of confusion, including but not limited to another editor initially thinking the group message might have been vandalism), the anonymous IP is continuing to canvas for support of this RFC, though it is not clear what the editor is actually expecting to achieve.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:48, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Clarifying. Since I keep being misquoted. I originally was concerned with the wording of "a good news" (insinuating some other) since this is not a new article, there seemed to me to be bias in that it was left incorrectly worded (for so long) to suggest something it is not, in a lead paragraph no less. "a good news" is a different thing as "The Good News AKA the Gospel" and the minimizing struck me as an ugly dangerous bias. My concern about the correction of "a good news" (not the internal link) being reverted is only cautionary and the internal link is not the main concern I first raise, that has lead to these processes. All along the way though, User:Jeffro77 has twisted what I had to say to suite his purposes: Taking what I had to say at the Project against religious bias away from that context, and then attacking me for referring to that context, by calling me a spammer for messaging members of that project, is to me good evidence of acting on bias. Saying I am referring to all of Christianity when I am talking about "this religion" on the "Jehovah's Witness beliefs" talkpage is another example of his twisting my words. User:Jeffro77 immediately misquoted me when her first saw that I was talking about the wording of the second lead paragraph, and started instead referring to the link I had added to take attention away from my actual concern, and everyone that has followed has critisized me for what he claims is my concern, not what I actually wrote at Project against religious bias. I was not aware that the projects was left behind when I first went looking for the correct channel to complain about the bias in the lead paragraph. But having found that resource I tried to make full use of it. If User:Jeffro77 hadn't been taking me out of context and twisting what I had to say from the start this would not have escalated to where it is, because this behaviour served only to fuel my concerns about bias in this/these articles. Left in the context of concern for bias, if you look at it from the start, he has reveal himself through his edits here. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
    1. The article never said “a good news”, and no one has complained about your change to the article. The context was already evident from the supporting citation, but the introduction of “the” was an improvement. As with the wikilink, it is not the case that the word “the” was ever previously added and then subsequently removed from the phrase, due to alleged bias or for any other reason, since the term “good news” was added in 2009. Despite your false accusations that I have deliberately misquoted or misrepresented your intentions, you did initially only add the wikilink, and it was a few minutes later that you added "the", so it is not clear how I was expected to know your primary concern. I repeatedly said very clearly that there was no problem with your change. JW literature does not capitalise the term “good news” (even when referring to the gospel). (Also, various mainstream Bibles, including the "Good News Translation", contain the rendering "good news" without "the" at Luke 4:18. Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation also has "good news" without "the" at that verse along with Luke 3:18; and 16:16.)
    2. I am in no way responsible for the wording chosen by another editor (and a supporter of the denomination in question) 12 years ago.
    3. The WikiProject you posted on was labelled as defunct in 2012. Everything you said at that page was copied to this page, with full context and clearly indicated as being moved from that page.
    4. Jehovah’s Witnesses is a denomination and Christianity is a religion. Your misuse of the terms is not my responsibility.
    5. You started this entire train wreck by crying out ‘bias’ over an edit you made that no one complained about. If you had just made the change and left it at that, reviewers such as myself would have casually thought, “oh, yeah, that’s better” and enjoyed the rest of our day.--Jeffro77 (talk) 21:23, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
  • "Disseminating good news" is a deceptive minimizing spin on what they do, because it suggests something other than "The Gospel," AKA the Christian Good News. You will never get me to agree to anything different from that statement. Having accepted that it is deceptive, the bias is clear. You will never get met to agree to anything different from that either. There is no point in arguing with you, you just don't want to see it. 24.78.228.96 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
    At this point, I don't really care if you 'agree'. You made an edit that was uncontested, and your opinion of me is irrelevant. If you have any actual concerns with article content, present those concerns. Otherwise, just go away. If you continue with any irrelevant personal attacks, you will be reported to admins.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
    The previous wording that you insist is ‘biased’ was added by a pro-JW editor 12 years ago, so you ordinarily would need to take up your concerns with that editor. But the editor hasn’t been active for several years, so I guess you can just relax.—Jeffro77 (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Note: I have removed the RfC tag, as the topic raised by the OP is entirely unsuitable as subject matter for an RfC: RfCs are intended to be used solely to solicit feedback regarding content matters, not behavioural issues and disputes--the RfC/U process was retired by the community seven years ago for exactly this reason. Since there is no live editorial dispute identified in this "RfC" prompt, let alone a narrowly defined one with a specific proposal/solution to !vote on or otherwise engage with to the benefit of the article, this entire discussion is not only not appropriate to the process, it really ought to be hatted. I suggest that if the OP still has concerns about the conduct of other editors here, they have the option to use WP:ANI or another appropriate forum for reporting behavioural issues. Although, frankly, viewing just as much of the exchange here as regards this thread and the related dispute, I would not necessarily recommend it as I think a WP:BOOMERANG block for a combination of disruption and CIR concerns would be the most likely outcome. In short, 24.78.228.96, I would take your win on the content issue (which if I am reading the forgoing discussion correctly, was not even being blocked with regard to your preferred approach) and walk with it. Snow 12:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Summary of my edits

I'm thankful for everyone who took the time to explain the technicalities of Misplaced Pages. My intentions were never to buck the system or to misuse what I know. There used to exist an entire project dedicated to correcting the bias that crept into articles on religion here because there were contentious disagreements about how religion articles should be written on specific denominations because people with bias could hide behind user IDs and pretend to be in favour of improving an article while they sabotaged it with their edits. So when I read in the intro that this denominations activities were being minimized, "some news" which could mean anything rather than the Christian gospel "good news," I was struck with how what they do was being misrepresented, and I looked for help where ever I could, because it surprised me that this false bit of information and misrepresentation had been in the introduction of the article for so long, for 12 years it turns out. Whether it was added by a real JW or a false JW 12 years ago who can know. But my RfC was not about user conduct specifically. My point is the single most important bit of teaching/doctrine of this denomination had been misrepresented for a very long time, right in the introduction, and who knows how many other JW articles have this kind of sabotage in them? You can see from the above discussion that I tried to highlight that it was a concern for me, and it was just brushed under the carpet. My edit wasn't just adding an internal link, my edit wasn't just a small rewording, an addition of an internal link which had yet to be contested, but that I had to make it in the first place after 12 years. If you don't care about the correctness of the information in the article then it wouldn't matter to you that it had been wrong for 12 or so years. But the point is that all of Christianity revolves around "the good news" (AKA The Gospel) and if you take that away from Jehovah's Witnesses you're sabotaging their place as a Christian denomination, their place as Christians and Christianity. And that this article was misrepresenting an entire denomination's prime doctrine for 12 or so years, is a shame on this encyclopedia. Technically what I did may have been the wrong approach, backwards approach, but the record now exists of how my intention was received and how my points were minimized and/or twisted. Like saying it was "just a link" (paraphrase, see above) is taking what I wrote out of context by ignoring the other half. So I am thankful that this record exists, I'm sorry I'm not perfectly fluent in Misplaced Pages syntax & procedure, but I have no doubt in this case that the ends justifies the means. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 12:01, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

You're still complaining about a perceived problem over the inclusion of a link and one word, which has already been addressed. There is no actionable request here. Just to be clear, your claim that "the single most important bit of teaching/doctrine of this denomination had been misrepresented" is completely false, as the source added 12 years ago included a quote stating very clearly that the "good news" refers to the Christian 'gospel' and not some vague general sense. Perhaps, if you imagine there to be some broad problem with the way the denomination is presented in Misplaced Pages, you could focus on what you imagine to be the most serious concern rather than this ultimately mundane oversight that has already been corrected.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:32, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused here. JWs would deny that their organization is a denomination of Christianity, as they believe they are the only Christians in the universe. What most people call "Christianity" they would denounce as demonic. And they would deny that their belief system constitutes a religion. 2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:28EF:2259:6821:F44A (talk) 23:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
As far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, it doesn't matter that JWs don't consider other Christian denominations to be 'real Christians', for the same reason that it doesn't matter that some other Christians don't consider JWs to be 'real Christians'. Your statement that "they would deny that their belief system constitutes a religion" is simply false.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

God's throne in the Pleiades

This used to be taught - should it be mentioned? I don't think it has ever been officially denied. https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/34882/our-father-who-art-pleiades --2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:28EF:2259:6821:F44A (talk) 00:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

No. A) It's a very old teaching that wasn't particularly prevalent or highlighted even when it was taught. And B) the website you gave literally denies it in the quote from the 1953 WT. Vyselink (talk) 00:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
It certainly isn't noteworthy in the scope of their current beliefs. However, I have added it at Development of Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
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