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Discuss sources on the reliable sources noticeboard To discuss the reliability of specific sources, please start or join a discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard (WP:RSN).

view · edit Frequently asked questions Questions Where should I ask whether this source supports this statement in an article? At Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Don't forget to tell the editors the full name of the source and the exact sentence it is supposed to support. Do sources have to be free, online and/or conveniently available to me? No. Sources can be expensive, print-only, or available only in certain places. A source does not stop being reliable simply because you personally aren't able to obtain a copy. See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/cost. If you need help verifying that a source supports the material in the article, ask for help at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange or a relevant WikiProject. Do sources have to be in English? No. Sources can be written in any language. However, if equally good sources in English exist, they will be more useful to our readers. If you need help verifying that a non-English source supports the material in the article, ask for help at Misplaced Pages:Translators available. I personally know that this information is true. Isn't that good enough to include it? No. Misplaced Pages includes only what is verifiable, not what someone believes is true. It must be possible to provide a bibliographic citation to a published reliable source that says this. Your personal knowledge or belief is not enough. I personally know that this information is false. Isn't that good enough to remove it? Your personal belief or knowledge that the information is false is not sufficient for removal of verifiable and well-sourced material. Is personal communication from an expert a reliable source? No. It is not good enough for you to talk to an expert in person or by telephone, or to have a written letter, e-mail message, or text message from a source. Reliable sources must be published. Are there sources that are "always reliable" or sources that are "always unreliable"? No. The reliability of a source is entirely dependent on the context of the situation, and the statement it is being used to support. Some sources are generally better than others, but reliability is always contextual. What if the source is biased? Sources are allowed to be biased or non-neutral; sometimes these are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a controversial subject. However, the resulting Misplaced Pages articles must maintain a neutral point of view. Does every single sentence need to be followed by an inline citation? No. Only four broad categories of material need to be supported by inline citations. Editors need not supply citations for perfectly obvious material. However, it must be possible to provide a bibliographic citation to a published reliable source for all material. Are sources required in all articles? Adding sources is the best practice, but prior efforts to officially require at least one source have been rejected by the community. See, e.g., discussions in January 2024 and March 2024. Are reliable sources required to name the author? No. Many reliable sources, such as government and corporate websites, do not name their authors or say only that it was written by staff writers. Although many high-quality sources do name the author, this is not a requirement. Are reliable sources required to provide a list of references? No. Misplaced Pages editors should list any required sources in a references or notes section. However, the sources you are using to write the Misplaced Pages article do not need to provide a bibliography. Most reliable sources, such as newspaper and magazine articles, do not provide a bibliography. Does anyone read the sources? Readers do not use the reference list extensively. This research indicates that readers click somewhere in the list of references approximately three times out of every 1,000 page views.

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Lead doesn't say what reliable source means

Compare with WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:OR. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

What would you propose the lead to say? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps "Reliable sources have a reputation for factchecking and accuracy. They are published, often independently from their subject." It's also troubling that the "page in a nutshell" doesn't reference reliability. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I've had a think to try to sum up the spirit of the guideline: "A reliable source is a source (four meanings in WP:SOURCE) that is just as willing to turn its critical attention inwardly as outwardly." I also think there is an implication that by doing this, they will necessarily be recognized for it which is the foundation for "reputation". This definition has a bias towards the source as a publisher/creator as described in WP:SOURCE. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If you want to begin with a definition, then AFAICT the actual definition is:

• "A reliable source is a published document that experienced Misplaced Pages editors will accept for supporting a given bit of material in a Misplaced Pages article."

You have probably noticed the absence of words like reputation, fact-checking, accuracy, independence, etc. That's because those aren't actually required. We cite self-published, self-serving, inaccurate, unchecked, non-independent sources from known liars all the time. See also {{cite press release}} and {{cite tweet}}. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The first part makes some sense, although I would appreciate some clarification on the second part. If every source is reliable for something, the second sentence of this page "If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it" is redundant. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The second sentence is incomplete. It probably ought to say "If no Misplaced Pages:Independent reliable sources can be found..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I assumed the exclusion of independent was intentional. There does seem to be a distinction between sources reliable for verifying the content they express (wikivoice), and sources reliable for verifying that such a source expressed content (requiring attribution). I'll add in the "independent", although it does seem a bit like a non-sequitur. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it should be in the lead at all, but if it's going to be there, it should match WP:NOT, which says "All article topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources" and WP:V, which says "If no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not sure it should be in the lede either. I tried to express this by labelling it a non-sequitur.

If I were to read the lede to find out what constitutes a reliable source for a statement, I would learn it's what experienced editors thinks verifies it. This is really useless, I would have no idea how to apply this guideline, which is surely the first consideration in reading a guideline. Defer to experienced editors, who apparently deferred to experienced editors, who... Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's useless, but I agree that it isn't immediately actionable. It tells you what a RS actually is. What you need after that is some way to determine whether the source you're looking at is likely to be RS.

This could be addressed in a second sentence, perhaps along these lines:

"Editors generally prefer sources that have a professional publication structure with editorial independence or peer review, have a reputation for fact-checking, accuracy, or issuing corrections, are published by an established publishing house (e.g., businesses regularly publishing newspapers, magazines, academic journals, and books), and are independent of the subject. Reliable sources must directly support the content and be appropriate for the supported content."

It's that last bit ("appropriate") that throws over the preceding sentence. If a BLP is accused of a crime, and posts "I'm innocent! These charges are false!" on social media, then that's a source with no professional publication structure, no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy, no reputable publishing house, and no independence from the subject. But it's 100% appropriate for the article to contain this information, and 100% reliable for the statement "He denied the charges on social media". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The thing is, the rest of the page explains in detail what qualities are (and aren't) seen in sources that are usually accepted, so I'm not sure that duplicating that information in the lead is necessarily the best choice. Perhaps it would be better to say something like "This guideline describes the characteristics of sources that are generally preferred by editors." WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

This ridiculous situation is a product of us not distinguishing reliable for verifying the content of a source, and reliable for verifying the existence of a source. I understand that there is some complexity with DUE on this front (SME may fall into the latter category given what we can verify is that an expert is saying this but not that it is something we can put in wikivoice), but the current approach, where we try to bundle it into "appropriate" is insufficient.

Small note, we should try to keep comments such as "But it's 100% appropriate for the article to contain this information" out of the convo to keep the streams from getting crossed with WEIGHT. probably too aspirational, and my comments may be read as doing this. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:52, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The idea isn't "duplicating" information, but summarizing it. The lede of NPOV could say "An article's content can be said to conform to a NPOV if experienced editors accept it as appropriate to include" but this doesn't explain what it is as representing "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" does. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:50, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Newimpartial, since I doubt that the sentence should be in this guideline at all, I don't really mind you removing the word 'independent', but I did want to make sure you understood the context. As a result of your edit, we have

• WP:NOT saying that "All article topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources",
• WP:V saying that "If no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it", and
• WP:RS implying that non-independent sources aren't all that important.

If we have to have this sentence at all, I'd rather have this sourcing guideline match the core content policies. If, on the other hand, you're thinking about the fact that NPROF thinks independent sources are unimportant, then I suggest that the place to fix that is in the policies rather than on this page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

It is my understanding that several SNGs can be satisfied without (what some editors consider to be) fully independent sources, not just NPROF.

Fundamentally, I think the actual policy problem is that the degree of independence that should allow a source to be used to establish the notability of a subject is poorly-defined and easily weaponized. So it seems to me that no academic is notable based on their own self-published statements, but a legitimate claim to notability can be based on reliable statements from universities and learned societies (to satisfy NPROF criteria).

An author or artist can't be notable based on their own self-published statements, either, but a legitimate claim to CREATIVE notability can be based on reliable statements from the committee granting a major award.

In a way, I think the older "third-party" language more clearly supported these claims to notability, whereas many editors will now argue that employers and award grantors are "not independent enough" for their own reliable claims to count for notability. Newimpartial (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, an employer is not independent of the employee they tout, though an award granter (usually) is independent of the winner (though not of their award).

I agree that there might be a problem, but I think that if we're going to have this sentence in this guideline at all, it should match what the policies say.

How do you feel about removing this as unnecessary for the purposes of this guideline? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:24, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

This may be a controversial opinion, but I think an institutional employer with a decent reputation is a reliable source for the employment history and job titles of an employee, which is what NPROF requires in some cases. No "tout"ing necessary. Under those circumstances, I don't think a more purely independent source is "better" than the employer for establishing that kind of SNG notability.

Similarly, I have most certainty seen enthusiastic arguments that an announcement by an award grantor of a grantee is not independent of the grantee (presumably for reasons of "touting") and therefore does that such sources do not contribute to notabiiity under CREATIVE (even though the latter does not actually require independent sourcing, only reliable sourcing).

I would also point out again that "third party", which is what NOT says now and what WP:V said until 2020, seems slightly less amenable to weaponization in this way than does "independent", for whatever reason. Newimpartial (talk) 22:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that employers are usually "reliable" for the kinds of things they publish about their employees, but they're never "independent".

Misplaced Pages:Third-party sources redirects to Misplaced Pages:Independent sources, and has for years. There is a distinction – see Misplaced Pages:Independent sources#Third-party versus independent – but the distinction is not observed in Misplaced Pages's rules. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:37, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

If we do not remove this sentence, can we add independent, and then have a follow-up sentence or footnote saying "independent sources are not required to meet some SNGs" or the sort? Seems like that would clear up any confusion by not having "independent" in the sentence. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:04, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

A second thought: I don't think using a narrowly "document" definition for source adequately accounts for the other meanings of source used (i.e. a publisher), and I'm not sure how you could do that. I imagine that's just a case of reliable source having multiple definitions depending on the way it's being used. This may be the source of conflict with the second sentence: a different meaning being invoked. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:24, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

In discussions, we use that word in multiple different ways, but when you are talking about what to cite, nobody says "Oh, sure, Einstein is a reliable source for physics". They want a specific published document matched to a specific bit of material in a specific article.

"Document" might feel too narrow, as the "document" in question could be a tweet or a video clip or an album cover, none of which look very document-like, but I think it gets the general jist, which is that RS (and especially WP:RSCONTEXT) is focused on "the work itself". WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am thinking more Breitbart, although you describe well what the underlying dispute is, describing a publisher as unreliable is making a presumption for specific cites. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a known difficulty. There's the "Oh, everyone agrees that Einstein's reliable" sense and the "Yeah, but the article is Harry Potter, and Einstein's not reliable for anything in there" sense.

I have previously suggested encouraging different words. Perhaps Einstein is reputable, and an acceptable source+material pair is reliable. But we aren't there, and for most purposes, the distinction is unimportant. If someone says that "Bob Blogger isn't reliable", people glork from context that it's a statement about the blog being unreliable for most ordinary purposes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the definition Google gives for reliable: "consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted" does not caveat that it only speaks to verifying single pieces of information. This implies the Misplaced Pages definition is unintuitive. I do think this isn't the biggest problem here although it does make it confusing. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

We use the "able to be trusted" sense. And the question is: Able to be trusted for what? There are people you can trust to cause problems. There are source we can trust to "be wrong". That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether we can trust this source to help us write accurate, encyclopedic material.

A source can be "consistently bad in quality" and still be reliable. Many editors would say that anything Donald Trump posts on social media is bad in quality. But it's reliable for purposes like "Trump said ____ on social media", because it is "able to be trusted" for that type of sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:21, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Context makes a difference. We should never ask: “Is this source reliable?” but rather, we should ask: “Does this source reliably verify what is written in our article?” Blueboar (talk) 22:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

• I find the formulation added ("A reliable source is a published document that experienced Misplaced Pages editors will accept for supporting a given bit of material in a Misplaced Pages article.") quite bizarre. Firstly, it is, in effect, saying a reliable source is a source which "experienced" editors say is reliable. Isn't that utterly circular? It tells me nothing if I want to work out whether a source is reliable or not. Secondly, it fails WP:LEAD. I can't see anything about "experienced" editors' opinions being decisive in the rest of the guideline. It's completely out of the blue. Fundamentally, it's not what the guideline says. Thirdly, why do "experienced" editors views get priority? I've come across plenty of experienced editors with highly dubious views about RS and relatively new editors with compelling opinions. Fourthly, "a given bit of material". Seriously, are we going to have such slangy sloppy language in the opening of one of the most prominent guidelines in WP? Apart from that it's great. I don't disagree that a summarising opening sentence would be useful, but this is not it or anything like it. DeCausa (talk) 22:16, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

  @DeCausa, what would you write instead, if you were trying to write the kind of definition that MOS:FIRST would recommend if this were a mainspace article?

  Usually, editors start off trying to write something like this: "A reliable source is a work that was published by a commercial or scholarly publisher with peer review or editorial oversight, a good reputation, independent, with fact-checking and accuracy for all."

  And then we say: We cite Donald Trump's tweets about himself. They are N self-published with N no editorial oversight, Nno peer review, a N bad reputation, N non-independent, with N no fact-checking, and N frequently inaccurate. And despite matching exactly 0% of the desirable qualities in a reliable source, they are still 100% Y reliable for statements that sound like "Trump tweeted _____".

  An accurate definition needs to not completely contradict reality.

  As for your smaller questions:

  1. Is this circular? No. "A reliable source is whatever we say it is" tells you what you really need to know, especially in a POV pushing dispute, which is that there is no combination of qualities that can get your source deemed reliable despite a consensus against it. It doesn't matter if you say "But this is a peer-reviewed journal article endorsed by the heads of three major religions and the committee for the Nobel Peace Prize, published by a university press after every word was publicly fact-checked, written by utterly independent monks who have no relationship with anyone!": If we say no, the answer is no. Does that sentence tell you everything you need to know? No. I agree with you that it does not tell you everything you need to know about reliable sources. We have been discussing that in the thread above.
  2. See WP:NOTPART.
  3. Why "experienced" editors? Because, to be blunt, experienced editors control Misplaced Pages, and especially its dispute resolution processes. A source is not reliable just because three newbies say it is. However, it's unusual to have three experienced editors say that a source is reliable, and end up with a consensus the other way, and I don't ever remember seeing that happen with only newbies opposing that.
  4. If you dislike that particular phrase, then I invite you to suggest something that you prefer. As long as it prioritizes text–source integrity – by which I mean that we're talking about whether this source is reliable for this word/phrase/sentence/paragraph rather than vaguely about "the subject in general" or "some unknown part of the thousands of words on this page" – I'm personally likely to think it's an improvement.

  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:03, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think putting forward a strawman and then demolishing it is particularly useful. Your strawman clearly fails for its narrowness. The current text (and the premise of the above thread) fails because it's circular (yes it is - I'll come back to that) and doesn't tell us anything about what an RS is.

  To do that, one has to reach back to the fundamentals that, absent the detail of WP:RS, gives editors a guiding principle by which to judge whether a source is RS or not. For me, the fundamental concept is that RS are the means by which WP:V is delivered in practice. If it delivers it, it's RS. If it doesn't, it's not. I'm sure there are a number of ways this can be formulated. Here's one - I don't say it is the only one or the best one or it can't be improved. A reliable source is a previously published source of information in any medium which has all the attributes necessary to enable a reader to check the veracity of a statement in an article and to be assured that it is not derived from editors' own beliefs or experiences. That's pretty much all you need to know to understand why this is RS for "Donald Trump has claimed on Twitter that China created the concept of global warming" but not for "global warming was created by China" (to take your example).

  Turning to your numbered points:

  1. How can it be anything other than circular? I have 37k edits over 12 years so I would think by most standards I am "experienced". So if I am in doubt on whether something is RS or not and I look at that I'm told that whatever I think is RS is RS. There are no inputs given to me other than what I already thought and what I already thought is validated. Circular. Obviously WP:CONSENSUS is how all disputes are ultimately resolved. But what you say is clearly not true - otherwise !votes contrary to policy in RFCs wouldn't be disregarded. Of course 'might is right' works from time to time here, but not always or inevitably and to embed and codify it is really inappropriate in a guideline.
  2. The great thing about WP policies and guidelines is that (for the most part) they reflect commonsense. Taking a bureaucratic approach to ignore LEAD, a very commonsense guideline, doesn't make sense to me. Of course, the opening should be relatable to what is actually said in the policy. There is absolutely nothing in the current opening that foreshadows the rest of the guideline.
  3. Just need to look at RFC's to see that's not how we work. And ultimately an RS dispute will end up there. And what's an "experienced" editor anyway? I can see it feeding arguments along the lines of "I've got 40k edits and you've got 2k so my opinion counts more than yours".
  4. For the reasons I've given above, the current text isn't salvageable. It needs a different concept. But a "bit of material" is particularly cringworthy.

  I really think the addition should be reverted. Also, given its prominence whatever the final proposal is it needs an RFC rather than 3 editors deciding it. DeCausa (talk) 11:23, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

  I like the direction your definition takes, except that it's not really reflective of actual practice. Here is an example of a source that has all "the attributes necessary to enable a reader to check the veracity of a statement in an article and to be assured that it is not derived from editors' own beliefs or experiences", but which is not a reliable source:

  • Source: Soviet propaganda article in a government-funded partisan newspaper saying HIV was intentionally created as part of a American biological warfare program.
  • Article content: "HIV was created as part of a US biological warfare program."

  The reader can check source and "be assured that it is not derived from editors' own beliefs or experiences". That (dis)information definitely came from the cited newspaper and not from Misplaced Pages editors.

  But it's still not a reliable source, and at the first opportunity, editors will remove it and, if necessary, have a discussion to demonstrate that we have a consensus against it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:44, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a reliable source for exactly the same reason (in my example) as the Trump tweet is not a reliable source for the statement "global warming was created by China". It not being derived from editors' own beliefs is only an additional qualifier. The main one is that "it has all the attributes to check the veracity of the statement". When the tweet is used to say Trump said X, it has all the attributes to check the veracity of the statement "Trump said X". However, it has none of the attributes to check the veracity of the statement that "global warming was created by China" (expertise, independent fact-checking etc etc.) it's exactly the same as your Soviet propaganda article.

  I'm reverting the addition to the guideline - it consensus needs to be more than a couple of editors for something as prominent as that. DeCausa (talk) 16:09, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  WP:V begins this way:

  "In the English Misplaced Pages, verifiability means that people are able to check that information comes from a reliable source."

  Older versions opened with statements like "Misplaced Pages should only publish material that is verifiable and is not original research" (2005) and "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources" (2006) and "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source" (2007).

  There's nothing about veracity in the policy, nor any similar word, except to tell people that The Truth™ explicitly isn't our goal.

  Additionally, if we demand veracity, rather than verifiability, we can realistically expect POV pushers to exploit that. "Sure, you cited a scientific paper about HIV causing AIDS, but that paper doesn't provide enough information to 'check the veracity of the statement'." Or "You cited lamestream media to say that Trump lost the 2020 election. You can't actually 'check the veracity of the statement' unless you go count the ballots yourself." And so forth.

  I think we have intentionally avoided any such claims for good reasons, and I don't think we should introduce them now. The purpose of a source is to let others (primarily other editors, since readers rarely click on sources) know that this wasn't made up by a Misplaced Pages editor but was instead put forward by the kind of source that a person of ordinary skill in the subject would be willing to rely on. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  I think you are missing the point. "Verifiability not truth" is about something else entirely. That's about the encyclopedia reflecting what's published in reliable sources rather what an editor believes to be the truth. It's not saying that it has no bearing in determining what an RS is. Fundamentally, we need to use sources that have all the attributes that support the objective of veracity. Whether or not they do convey the "truth" is a different question - and we can't know that. All we can do is check as best we can that they have the attributes that can potentially do that. If we do anything else then we just repeat flat earth nonsense. This is basic. DeCausa (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  You want us to define a reliable sources as having all "the attributes necessary to enable a reader to check the veracity of a statement".

  But you don't think veracity has much to do with the truth.

  I wonder if a word like trustworthy would serve your purposes better. That is, we can't promise you it's true, and almost none of the sources will give you the material necessary to check the actual veracity, but we can give you a source that we trusted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Circularity

This is about the comments on the definition ("A reliable source is a published document that experienced Misplaced Pages editors will accept") being circular.

Circular reasoning is this case: "A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true." For example: "This drug was proven to work because 100% of the people taking it got better afterwards. I know they get better because of the drug (and not due to random chance, placebo effect, natural end of the disease, etc.) because the drug has been proven to work."

Circular reasoning is not: "A reliable source is whatever editors say it is".

This is the old joke about reality, perception, and definition: Three baseball umpires are talking about their profession and the difficulty of making accurate calls in borderline cases. One says "Some are strikes, and some are balls, and I call them as they are." The next feels a little professional humility is in order and says "Some are strikes, and some are balls, and I call them as I see them." The third thinks for a moment and says "Some are strikes, and some are balls, but they ain't nothing until I call them."

The last umpire speaks of definition: What makes a source be "reliable" is that editors accept it. If it is not reliable, it is not reliable because they do not accept it. They might (and should!) give reasons why they don't accept it, but it is not unreliable because of the reasons (which may vary significantly between editors, or even be completely incorrect); it is unreliable because they don't accept it.

Imagine that you have applied for a job somewhere. They do not choose to hire you. You ask why. They say "We felt like you had too little education and not enough experience". You reply: "That's wrong! I've got five advanced degrees, and I've been working in this field for a hundred years!" Even if you're 100% right, you're still not hired. So it is with sources: No matter what the rational arguments are, a source is reliable if we say it is, and it's unreliable if we say it isn't.

When you write above that if "I am in doubt on whether something is RS or not and I look at that I'm told that whatever I think is RS is RS", you are making the mistake of assuming the plural is accidental. It is not what "I" think; it is what "we" think. Another way to say it might be "A reliable source is a published document that The Community™ will accept", though that will draw objections for its unsuitable level of informality. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:10, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Have a more simple "Ovrview section" .....then let page explain... KISS....somthing like

A reliable source is one that presents a well-reasoned theory or argument supported by strong evidence. Reliable sources include scholarly, peer-reviewed articles or books written by researchers for students and researchers, which can be found in academic databases like JSTOR and Google Scholar. Magazine and newspaper articles from reputable sources are generally reliable as they are written by journalists who consult trustworthy sources and are edited for accuracy. However, it's important to differentiate between researched news stories and opinion pieces. Websites and blogs can vary in reliability, as they may contain misinformation or be genuine but biased; thus, it's essential to evaluate the information critically. Online news sources are often known for sharing false information.

Wrote a fast essay Misplaced Pages:What is a reliable source?Moxy🍁 16:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy, you said:

• A reliable source is one that presents a well-reasoned theory or argument supported by strong evidence

but if Trump posts on Twitter that China caused global warming, and we write in an article "Trump claimed China caused global warming on Twitter", where is the "well-reasoned theory" or "strong evidence"? There is no theory at all, and there is no evidence that this wasn't the one time when someone picked up his device and tweeted a joke post for him.

Or think about something perfectly ordinary, like "Big Business, Inc. has 39,000 employees". We'd normally cite that to the corporate website. There's no "reasoning", no "theory", no "argument", and no "evidence" involved.

This sort of strong source might be true for major sources on substantial topics (e.g., as the main source for Health effects of tobacco), but it's inapplicable to most of our ordinary everyday content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Should deal with the vast majority of articles. Trump posts on Twitter is not reliable for statements of fact just the opinion. The vast majority of articles dont have to deal with junk of this nature...let these cases be dealt with edit by edit. As for Big Business not sure it's even worthy of inclusion. .but if no other source contradicts the statement who really cares. Moxy🍁 19:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources have to be measured against individual statements, not whole articles.

The vast majority of articles deal with quite a lot of very ordinary content: The company said they have n employees. The singer said she got married last week. The author wrote this book. The definition of reliable source has to fit for all of these circumstances, not just the contentious ones. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Then what is needed is a definition of reliable source (used academically) as we have now vs a source for a statement that in no way would ever come under a peer review process or be historically relevant in the future. What is needed is more and separate information about how we can use non-academic sources. Should have a page dealing with modern media junk, company or government data and social networking sites that promote oneself. There's a whole generation coming up consisting of 50% of English-speaking editors that will never go on to formal education to understand the differences. Moxy🍁 22:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that it would be desirable to have a definition for reliable sources, but I suggest to you that this definition says much more about us (i.e., the Misplaced Pages editors who are making the decisions about which sources to "rely on") than about the objective, inherent qualities of the sources.

As I said above, a source can have none of the qualities we value and still be reliable for certain narrow statements. It can also have all of our favorite qualities and still be unreliable for other (e.g., off-topic or misrepresented) statements.

IMO the unifying theme between "This comprehensive meta-analysis of cancer rates, published in the best journal and praised by all experts, is a reliable source for saying that alcohol causes 8.7924% of cancer deaths in developed countries" and "Yeah, his tweet's a reliable source for the fact that he said it" is what the community accepts for each of those statements. That's our baseline: It's reliable if we say it is, and it's not reliable if we say it isn't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I wrote something up after this, if only to clarify my understanding. Could someone here have a look and see if I am accurately reflecting what's conveyed here? Particularly the part on 'intangible preferences' I'm a little shaky on.

Strictly speaking, a source cannot by itself be described as reliable. A source can only be reliable for verifying a piece of information.

There are two types of statements a source can verify: those that are attributed and those that are not. With the former, editors look for attributes such as independence, peer-review and a reputation for fact-checking. This can indicate it is reliable for such a statement. They also look for counter-considerations, such as contradicting other sources that also have such attributes and a lack of expertise to make such a statement.

How considerations and counter-considerations are weighted, and the determination of reliability for a statement is made, comes down to any consensus editors can form. The community has some preferences for which considerations are more relevant; experienced editors are more able to apply such intangible preferences. If a source meets this, the material can be put in wikivoice.

When a source falls short of this, we can move from using the source to verify the content of what they said, to verifying that they said something. If the source has a credible claim to representing what it purports to be, it is considered a reliable source to verify the attributed claim. An example of a "credible claim": Donald Trump's Twitter may post something, but whether the tweet is a reliable source that Trump said it or merely that his Twitter account posted it is evaluated (considering the potential that his social media team tweeted it).

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I was with you until the last sentence. The difference between "Alice said" and "The people Alice hired for the purpose of saying things for her" is immaterial.

The difference that matters is whether Trump's tweet can be presented as something that is true ("Trump likes McDonald's food", with a tweet saying "At McDonald's. Best french fries in the world. Love all their stuff. Should make the Navy serve this in the White House.") or only as something that he said ("Trump once tweeted that Ruritanians 'should be deported from their own country'", with a tweet saying "Those Ruritanians are strange! They should be deported from their own country!!"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Both matter. We can see the former matter when we write The Art of the Deal as ghostwritten rather than authored by Trump even when "The people hired for the purpose of saying things for " wrote it. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

But we can't use a ghostwritten book to say that it was ghostwritten. We need a different source for that (i.e., one that actually says it was ghostwritten). WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh I understand your point. Yes, this is contingent on external sources making comments to this effect rather than simple editor speculation, I should have made that clearer. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

On the second half, I've had a think. I don't think it is a distinct issue from non-primary sources. I think the key consideration from the first is independence. For the second, due to ambiguity in tone, to put it in wikivoice would be an extraordinary claim for which the tweet is insufficiently reliable. Interested to hear your thoughts. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Were you using non-primary and independence as interchangeable words in this comment? They're not.

Assuming 'the second' is the made-up tweet about the purely fictional Ruritania, the tweet would be:

• primary for its contents (WP:ALLPRIMARY)
• non-independent of himself/his view
• self-published because the author and the person who made it available to the public are the same.

But it would be reliable. All sources are reliable for statements that say "The source contains the following words: <exact words in the source>" or "The person posted <exact words the person posted> on social media".

With this reliable source in hand, one still has to decide whether the content belongs in the article. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Just because you have a reliable source doesn't mean the inclusion would be WP:DUE or comply with rules against WP:INDISCRIMINATE inclusion of random factoids. But even if you conclude that it's not sufficient to justify putting it in the article, the source is still reliable for the statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:01, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

No I wasn't, in fact I was trying to make the more bold claim that the principles of independence could be applied to a primary source. The idea being that if a claim is self-serving, the publisher is less reliable for its contents, necessitating attribution. There's no principle of "self-serving", but there is of bias and independence; I think the latter fits better here as a biographical subject can have more or less of a vested interest in a topic, which is what an independent source is: "a source that has no vested interest in a given Misplaced Pages topic".

"But it would be reliable." There's some imprecision here between reliable with or without attribution. You are saying all are reliable for the latter, which is true. How that attribution is given depends on whether the source "has a credible claim to representing what it purports to be". For the former, the reason there is an affirmative assumption of reliability for claims made by individuals is because they are regarded as a SME, on matters such as whether Donald Trump does indeed love McDonalds. Counter-considerations then apply for reliability: self-serving, contestable etc.

Agree on DUE. I am trying to keep that discussion out of this one, with mixed results. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

• Source1 says <something>.
• Is Source1 reliable for the claim that Source1 says "<something>"? Yes.
• Source2 says <something self-promotional>.
• Is Source2 reliable for the claim that Source2 says "<something self-promotional>"? Yes.

There is no difference here. The Source2 is not less reliable for its own contents. Just because it says something self-promotional does not make you any more likely to read Source2 and think "Huh, Source2 didn't really say <something self-promotional>". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The claim made by source one can be put in wikivoice, the claim made by source two should be attributed. It seems obvious to me that source two is less reliable for content, we can't trust them as easily as a source that isn't self-promotional because they have strong, relevant motives contrary to accurately reflecting the truth. They are both just as reliable as each other for "source said something". The question here is the distinction you drew: "The difference that matters is whether Trump's tweet can be presented as something that is true or only as something that he said." For the former we can present it as true, for the latter we can only present it as something he said. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you that They are both just as reliable as each other for "source said something".

WP:INTEXT attribution is required whenever editors choose (i.e., by consensus) to require it. That is not always for primary sources, not always for non-independent sources, and not always for self-promotional sources.

Consider a self-published, self-promotional, non-independent primary source:

• Social media post: "Congratulations to all the staff on our 20th anniversary! Thank you to all the customers who have supported us since 2004. We're going to give away treats to the first 100 customers today, and we'll have hot gas station grub all day long for the low price of $5."
• Misplaced Pages article: "WhatamIdoing's Gas Station opened in 2004."

Nobody would expect us to add INTEXT attribution, e.g., "According to a social media post by WhatamIdoing's Gas Station, the business opened in 2004." The source is self-promotional, but our use of it is for non-self-promotional, basic facts. We can trust the source even though the source is promotional. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

While it may be true that INTEXT is technically only applied whenever editors choose, INTEXT also seems to make clear — "For certain frequently discussed sources, in-text attribution is always recommended" — that when material is DUE but is insufficiently reliable to be put in wikivoice, it is generally attributed.

If I may, a source can only be reliable for a given piece of material. It does not speak to the whole source as we've noted above extensively. The material the text is supporting, "WhatamIdoing's Gas Station opened in 2004" is not particularly promotional. If the material being supported was "WhatamIdoing's gas station gave away treats to the first 100 customers on this day", that the material was self-serving would be a consideration in whether it could be considered reliable or not. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:39, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

If you see an advertisement from a business that says it will give away treats to the first 100 customers, what makes you think you can't rely on that claim? Imagine that a store near you ran an ad making exactly that claim. Would you show up wondering whether it was true? Or would you be confident that (barring extenuating circumstances, assuming the whole store hadn't burned down over night, etc.) that they actually would do this?

A promotional source doesn't give us a reason to include promotional material, but it is reliable for the facts of the promotion. A Misplaced Pages editor would likely omit any mention of giving away treats, but if they included it, they would not say "The gas station posted on social media that they would give away treats to the first 100 customers", or anything remotely close to that. In fact, INTEXT would discourage that because "in-text attribution can mislead". Adding in-text attribution in that case might make it sound like we think the advertisement was lying.

There are self-serving cases when in-text attribution is necessary. Consider "Richard Nixon said I am not a crook" vs "Richard Nixon was not a crook", because the self-serving source is not reliable for a statement of fact. But a self-serving source can be reliable for a plain statement of fact, and when it is reliable for that plain fact, it should be presented in wikivoice – or omitted entirely for reasons unrelated to the source being reliable for the statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all of this, and I did when making my comment (hence why I said "would be a consideration", not the consideration). I think we're in agreement and I don't think any of this is at odds with my initial laying out of reliable sourcing, although some more clarifications may be needed.

Coming back now to the case you initially raised of Donald Trump liking McDonalds being in or out of wikivoice, I am saying the primary consideration is whether he is getting something out of it. More important considerations don't apply as they do with your gas station promo. If he tweeted endorsing MyPillow instead of McDonalds a different assessment of how self-promotional the material was would be made. I've lightly edited the original comment into User:Rollinginhisgrave/How I understand reliable sources. Do you think it needs further revision? Would you put it differently? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Consider this sentence above: If the material being supported was "WhatamIdoing's gas station gave away treats to the first 100 customers on this day", that the material was self-serving would be a consideration in whether it could be considered reliable or not.

This is wrong. Whether the material was self-serving is a consideration for "how we should handle it" or "what we should stick in the article", but it's not a consideration for "whether it could be considered reliable". That source is 100% reliable for that statement. It's just not something we'd usually want to stick in an article for non-reliability reasons.

The tendency in discussions on wiki is to fall for the Law of the instrument: I'm familiar and comfortable with using the WikiHammer of Reliability, so when the actual issue is anything else, I still pull out my hammer. I ought to use the whole toolbox and say that this is undue, unencyclopedic, poorly written, off topic for this article, etc., but instead I'm going to say: It's self-serving, so it's not reliable. It's trivia, so it's not reliable. It's a tiny minority POV, so it's not reliable.

The sentence that you wrote above should say something like this: If the material being supported was "WhatamIdoing's gas station gave away treats to the first 100 customers on this day", that the material was self-serving would be a consideration for multiple policies and guidelines, not to mention common sense, that are not about whether this source is reliable for this statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:07, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

That source is 100% reliable for that statement. This doesn't contradict my statement. Whether it is self-serving is a consideration for whether it is reliable: this is why we hold "independence" as indicative of reliability. As I said above, determining whether it is reliable is a product of weighting "considerations and counter-considerations": here the counter-consideration is more impactful. It can still be a consideration even if it is ultimately overruled in a final assessment by counter-considerations.

And "whether the material was self-serving" is also a consideration for other multiple policies and guidelines. In this case, those are more relevant here; I am not discussing them however since this is a conversation about defining "reliable sources", not NPOV. As you say, it can be a reliable source while still being UNDUE, and I don't think I've mentioned anything on the material being verifiable necessitating inclusion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

For:

• a statement in the Misplaced Pages article that "WhatamIdoing's Gas Station is giving away treats to the first 100 customers", and
• a source that is an actual advertisement saying the same thing,

then: whether that advertisement is self-serving is not a consideration for whether the advertisement is reliable for a description of the promotional activity.

There are no worlds in which we would say "Oh, this advertisement would be reliable for "WhatamIdoing's Gas Station is giving away treats to the first 100 customers" except that the advertisement is just too self-serving". The advertisement is always reliable for that particular statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:22, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, none of this contradicts what I'm saying. There's a confusion of process and outcome. While determining if this source can verify this piece of material, we necessarily have to make a judgement on whether the material being self-promotional (which can indicate a source is unreliable in verifying material) would impact such a determination. Here, you make it clear that you think it is irrelevant. Which I agree on. But to do so, you have necessarily considered its relevancy; to disregard first necessarily requires consideration. This is the consideration I am speaking of. It is an application of determining if a source is reliable as the evaluation of considerations for why it may be reliable and counter-considerations for why it may not be. "The advertisement is always reliable for that particular statement" and "a consideration in determining if such a source includes it being self-promotional possibly indicating unreliability" are simultaneously true. I think I've said my peace here and am repeating myself so if my point doesn't come across I'll leave this here, although I obviously hope it does. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we're going to reach an agreement. I can't think of an example of an advertisement that we would consider reliable if we judged it non-self-promotional but unreliable if we judged it self-promotional. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not the advertisement as a whole being judged as more or less self-promotional, but the material therein. An advertisement could make two claims: Coca-Cola was founded in 1886. Pepsi puts poison in their cola. There is obviously a distinction to be made to the extent of self-promotion between the claims, even though they both appear in an advertisement. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:09, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Coming back to this, I can see the GNG makes an attempt to define reliable at odds with the above discussion: "Reliable" means that sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline." In addition to this, it requires sources be independent, so it's not that it's just talking about reliable as it relates to notability, but making a claim about reliability in general. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:09, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Everything in the GNG is written "as it relates to notability". Among its awkward statements are that "Sources should be secondary", which is true(ish) for notability but has nothing to do with the definition of either source or reliable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:16, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

• Part of the confusion here stems from omitting context from the discussion. The goal is for sources to “reliably” verify what we write in our articles. However, the question of whether a specific source does this (or not) depends on what we write. Are we attempting to verify a statement of fact written in wikivoice (where we state “X” as fact, verified by citing source Y) or are we verifying an attributed statement of opinion (where we note that Y said “X”, verified by citing where Y said it). The same source can be unreliable in the first context, but reliable in the second context.

This, of course, does not mean we should write either statement (other policies impact what we write, as well as how and where we write it)… it only means that the specifics of reliability can shift depending on context. Blueboar (talk) 15:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I would like some feedback on what I perceive to be a reliable aviation source.

I was recently looking to use AussieAirpower as a source in an aircraft article. I was surprised to see two people say it wasn't a reliable source. Here is why I believe it is.

The primary author writes for Janes, which is very highly regarded, worked as a research fellow at the Australian Defence Studies Centre, consulted for the Australian Strategic Policy Institute and many others. So his opinion isn't just held in high regard, governments pay for it. He is he a current research fellow for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics as well as the editor for AussieAirpower.Peter Goon co authors a lot of the work, a qualified aircraft engineer and RAAF officer, graduate of the US navy test pilot school with extensive military test flying and who has developed and certified many aircraft technologies.

To me this seems like an ideal source on matters relating to things like radars and aircraft? However other seem to elevate the work of regular reporters above this and deem the think tank unreliable?

An example article is linked here. https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html Liger404 (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@Liger404, please take this question to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Alternatively, if you think it needs people who understand the subject area, you can post it at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Aircraft. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Liger404 (talk) 00:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Preprints bullet, general audience writing about scholarship

Right now, the Preprints bullet says in part

Preprints, such as those available on repositories like arXiv, medRxiv, bioRxiv, or Zenodo are not reliable sources. Research that has not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog, as anybody can post it online. Their use is generally discouraged, unless they meet the criteria for acceptable use of self-published sources, and will always fail higher sourcing requirements like WP:MEDRS.

Would it be clearer to replace that with something like

Preprints, such as those available on repositories like arXiv, medRxiv, bioRxiv, or Zenodo, have not undergone peer-review and therefore are not reliable sources of scholarship. They are self-published sources, as anyone can post a preprint online. Their use is generally discouraged, and they will always fail higher sourcing requirements like WP:MEDRS.

The similarity to blogs is that they're self-published, and there's no need to compare them to blogs to say that, especially since they're unlike blogs in other ways (e.g., in citing literature). I also removed the phrase about the criteria for acceptable use of self-published sources, as preprints generally come from "expert" sources, which is an exception for using SPS. Notwithstanding that preprints generally come from expert sources, their use is discouraged because we don't want readers to confuse them with peer-reviewed research and because editors should use reliable non-self-published sources when available, which often exist in the peer-reviewed literature.

Also, does it make sense to add something about popular discussions of scholarship (e.g., in a magazine)? FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Whatever the outcome is, it is silly to say "they are not reliable sources. they can be reliable sources." Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The passage is fine as is, IMO. See also WP:SPSWHEN. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:03, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I was prompted by an exchange on the Autism talk page where another editor seemed to interpret "Research that has not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog, as anybody can post it online. Their use is generally discouraged" along the lines of "the use of sources that have not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog and their use is generally discouraged" (i.e., interpreting it as text about other sorts of sources, not limited to preprints or non-peer-reviewed scholarship more generally, as is the case with some conference proceedings). Not an accurate reading of those sentences, but it made a couple of us wonder whether the wording of the preprints paragraph could be improved. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:03, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I encouraged FOO to start this because of that discussion. We don't need a sentence that can be quoted out of context to say that "Research that has not been peer-reviewed is akin to a blog", because that isn't true. Outside the hard sciences, research is routinely published in non-peer-reviewed books, which are definitely not "akin to a blog". Research gets published in magazines and newspapers.

I like the proposed re-write. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Autocracy corrupting reliable sources, censoring what is published

As media are increasingly careful to avoid lawsuits like ABC recently settled, self-censorship will limit the neutral information available to publish. It is said that RFK will even censor releases by the FDA. In this type of media environment, truths must be published underground or at least in less well-resourced publications. How can reliable sources definitions deal with this new state of affairs? Jdietsch (talk) 20:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

We should be lending greater weight to academic and NGO sources and less on newsmedia. Simonm223 (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

When writing about politics, it's a good idea to look for sources from other countries, too.

For drug information, look for WP:MEDRS and other scholarly sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:19, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

This is curious...

The League of Women Voters recommends using this chart to determine bias in various media sources.

Below, I have matched the most left-leaning and right-leaning sources listed, alongside their status as a reliable source on Misplaced Pages.

STATUS: - generally reliable - no consensus - generally unreliable - deprecated - blacklisted NR - not rated

Status of left and right leaning media sources

LEFT	Statue	RIGHT	Status
AlterNet		The American Conservative
Associated Press		The American Spectator	NR
The Atlantic		Blaze Media
The Daily Beast		Breitbart News
Democracy Now!		Christian Broadcasting Network	NR
The Guardian		The Daily Caller
HuffPost		Daily Mail
The Intercept		The Daily Wire
Jacobin (magazine)	NR	Fox News (politics and science)
Mother Jones (magazine)		The Federalist (website)
MSNBC		Independent Journal Review
The Nation		National Review
The New York Times		New York Post
The New Yorker		Newsmax
Slate (magazine)	NR	One America News Network
Vox (website)		The Post Millennial
		The Washington Free Beacon

When there are 20 shades of blue paint available, and just 5 shades of green...everything starts to look kind of...blue. --Magnolia677 (talk) 17:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe far-right media should start instituting stricter standards for accuracy and fact checking. But also most of the media on the "Left" column is not meaningfully left-wing anywhere outside of the United States. All in all I'd suggest this chart signifies nothing except that the US Overton Window has slid dangerously to the right and allowed a whole bunch of disinformation to be mistaken for news. Simonm223 (talk) 17:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Do we have an article in the mainspace about various ratings? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I would have to agree. I have no desire to get into the politics of this, but Allsides is not a reliable source because it just reflects US opinions. Editors should judge sources based on the quality of those sources, without any regard of their supposed 'leaning'. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The main point here is that the sources in the table have been selected to make a point. The Guardian is an internationally respected newspaper and Breitbart is a bundle of crap. It's nothing to do with left or right - there's no equivalence. In the right column, the internationally respected media (the Guardian equivalents) are deliberately omitted. No Telegraph, The Times, WSJ, Financial Times etc etc. The two columns are not complete sets - just arbitrary selections. DeCausa (talk) 23:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The source rates the WSJ (for news) and FT as being centrist, and the OP did say that they included only left- and right-leaning sources. The Times (i.e., of London) does not appear to be rated by Allsides. So of your list, only the Telegraph, which is slightly right according to this source and which earns both (most) and (trans/GENSEX content) at WP:RSP, seems to have been overlooked. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Allsides is junk, and the other such websites are no better. That they rate the sources like that only shows they are repeating common US opinions, and this is an international project. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 01:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The "source" is nonsense. WSJ, the Times and FT are famously "right". If they're "centre" so is the Guardian. The "source" seems to only classify "far right" as right. DeCausa (talk) 08:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

That source differentiates between news and opinion: They classify the WSJ as center for their news and right for their opinions.

Our article on Financial Times says they have been called "centrist to centre-right liberal, neo-liberal, and conservative-liberal", but not "right". Our article on The Wall Street Journal similarly declines to simply call them "right", but provides a range of descriptions over time. I would think that if they are famously right-wing, then we'd have enough sources to just straight-up say that in the articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

And if political leaning had been the cause for any of the consensus's in the original table it could be shown by diffs. Instead it's a table matched against an opinion source that is at best contentious in it's ratings. It has zero relevance to reliability on Misplaced Pages. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The relevance isn't really to the mainspace, but to the community. The perception that right-leaning sources are disproportionately banned results in sincere questions like this one from editors who are trying to understand our system. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

So the system needs to be more transparent and easier to explain, as there is a false perception of events. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

There are complaints every single day about this. At what point does it become unfair to refer to these complaints as "false perceptions"? Big Thumpus (talk) 13:53, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

There are reliable right leaning sources, there are unreliable left leaning sources. That this isn't understood is a failure to explain the actual situation, the false perception (maybe poor wording) isn't a failure of those complaining but of the real story not being told well enough. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:41, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Since there seems to be some disagreement here as to what Misplaced Pages considers a "reliable right leaning source", can you give an example of what you're talking about? Big Thumpus (talk) 14:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Well as an example for UK news media the issue is that people see The Guardian is considered reliable (left) but The Daily Mail (right) is considered unreliable, and so think there isn't a balance. But that is a false perception, caused by not highlighting well enough that The Times or The Daily Telegraph both are right leaning media that is considered reliable. While there are left leaning media, such as Skwawkbox and The Canary (both probably the most left of UK sources), that are not considered reliable.

None of those sources considered unreliable are unreliable because of their political leaning, reliable sources are defined as having "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (see WP:V#What counts as a reliable source) and that is something that the DM, Canary or Skwawkbox all lack. Note also it's not an instance of failure in these areas that causes a source to be considered unreliable, but long term and ongoing failures. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:24, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this appears to be statistically ridiculous but formally reviewing and potentially reclassifying some or all of these sources per Misplaced Pages RS policy would be a huge undertaking. I think anyone who legitimately tries to take in the world from a neutral standpoint would acknowledge that every single source in the left column published sensational, misleading and at times outright false information during this last election cycle (at the very least), but since the same can be said for the sources in the right column that leaves us in a bit of a pickle. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:03, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Anyone wanting to show that any source in the ta or has fallen below acceptable standards can do so. It doesn't have to be a 'review all' kind of situation. Also there is nothing statistically ridiculous about anything, the changing media landscape has changed in different ways for different sources. That sources with a commonality have changed in a similar way is statistically normal. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:45, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

What I'm saying is statistically ridiculous is that, on Misplaced Pages, a self-proclaimed neutral encyclopedia, practically all news sources that have an openly left political lean are classified as reliable while practically all news sources that have an openly right political lean are classified as unreliable. At face value, this appears to represent a one-sidedness among whoever reviews said sources, and when looking deeper into discussions on talk pages for articles having to do with American politics, it's easy to find many editors expressing concerns about left-leaning opinions outweighing right-leaning opinions, to a degree that affects accuracy and neutrality. As it stands, the concerns of these editors are brushed off and they are told to reference reliable sources to support their disagreements - the Catch 22 being that there are no right-leaning sources for them to reference that Misplaced Pages deems reliable. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:59, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Not all right leaning sources are considered unreliable and not all left leaning sources are considered reliable. That is just not true.

Many things appear a certain way on face value if you make a list that doesn't include reliable rightwing sources, exclude unreliable leftwing sources, and include 'leftwing' sources in the reliable list that are not leftwing. It would be very helpful to have more reliable rightwing sources, but Misplaced Pages isn't the issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:21, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

It might help dispel this complaint to make a similar chart of the right-wing sources that ARE considered reliable. Blueboar (talk) 20:25, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

crickets :) — Masem (t) 20:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Some have already been mentioned in this thread. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:30, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The New York Times is a right-wing publication. Famously so. Simonm223 (talk) 21:22, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Which doubtless explains why we've gotten complaints from editors about our biased rules preferring the "liberal" or "left-wing" NYT getting preferred over the "centrist" Fox News. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:41, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Everything looks leftwing after a certain point. But pro-business, low taxation, and anti-regulation are rightwing positions, even if a source doesn't care if people use pronouns or isn't strongly anti-immigration. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

The Spectator and Washington Examiner have no-consensus ratings at RSP. I didn't notice any others within two or three minutes. Mostly, I don't recognize the names of the non-featured news outlets, though a few, like Catholic News Agency, sound like the kind of niche subject matter that would probably be accepted within that subject matter. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Except they don't. The news sources in the left column don't have a meaningful left-wing bias with the possible exception of Jacobin. It's just that the American Overton window is so laughably skewed that anything to the left of Ronald Reagan gets called socialist. Simonm223 (talk) 20:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223 It does seem pretty skewed. Doug Weller talk 14:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

To reframe something mentioned by others above, the source table is one that's calling the Associated Press as far "left" as Jacobin. If a dataset is being skewed in this way that's a data sampling problem. CMD (talk) 14:47, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

With respect, the Associated Press did run some blatantly partisan and misleading stories throughout this election cycle, like this one and this one for example. Of course there are farther-left leaning sources who ran even more with stories like this, but I think it's undeniable that AP platformed opinions-as-news that many would consider "far left" or at least directly serving the interests of politicians considered to be "far left". Big Thumpus (talk) 15:02, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

The AP does not exist just to cover US politics, and if those are examples of their most "far-left" stories, that sort of makes the point. CMD (talk) 15:09, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Which point are you referring to, though? I linked to those stories because I think it's clear that their left-leaning bias crosses over the line of accuracy and renders them inappropriate for use as a source in a neutral encyclopedia. If the AP does not exist just to cover US politics then perhaps their US political reporting should carry a separate classification? Big Thumpus (talk) 15:18, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Generally the United Sfstes systematically treats media as considerably more left-wing than it is. For instance being a partisan supporter of the center-right Democrat political party would not be considered an indication of being left wing anywhere else in the world. The sample is, frankly, garbage. Simonm223 (talk) 15:44, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

The United States as a whole? And are you saying that the Democrat party in the US is center-right? The stories I linked to above are inaccurate regardless of party affiliation, in that they misrepresent the factual realities of their subjects. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:51, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The United States, as a whole. Yes, the Democrats are center-right. There is no organized left wing in the USA and no mainstream left-wing media. The arbitrary sorting of right wing media like NYT into a left column is just that: arbitrary.Simonm223 (talk) 16:50, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Are you not from the United States? Big Thumpus (talk) 16:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

That is entirely irrelevant. Simonm223 (talk) 16:56, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I ask out of genuine curiosity because I would find it at least a little bit odd for someone who lives in the US, especially a long-term resident, and who regularly consumes US media to say that there is "no mainstream left-wing media" or that Democrats are legitimately "center-right". That is not at all how it appears on the ground in everyday life. Big Thumpus (talk) 17:04, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

That is that systematic bias that over-estimates how left-wing institutions are at play. Which is the same failure of judgment that led to the division above being treated as a left-right one rather than a mainstream-fringe division. Simonm223 (talk) 17:09, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not talking about some sort of systematic bias right now, though - I'm talking about actually coexisting with people in the US who outwardly identify as Democrats and how it is not accurate to describe their personal political beliefs, or how they expect their party and media to represent them, as "center-right". Big Thumpus (talk) 17:23, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

No offense but the thoughts and feelings of individual voters is entirely immaterial to the political position of the Democrats as an institution and is doubly immaterial to the actual topic - that list which shows only that Misplaced Pages allows mainstream media and deprecates fringe publications. Simonm223 (talk) 18:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's a story for you:

A friend of mine was a sysadmin in the 1990s. At a time when ragged tie-dye T-shirts were the uniform of "dot com" coders, he wore a buttoned-down shirt to work. They all thought he was unusually formal.

He moved to a different part of the country, doing similar work. Overnight, people's perception of him has transformed into "the wild Silicon Valley guy", because the local standards were so much more formal than him: He didn't wear a jacket or a necktie!

Big Thumpus, I think something similar is going on here. My friend was the same person, wearing the same clothes, but getting interpreted according to two different local standards. The same thing happens with political parties. The US ideas about what constitutes left or right are different from the ideas in other places. Our "left" (e.g., single-payer healthcare) is the "center" in some places (e.g., Europe). Views endorsed by our "right" (e.g., free, healthful school lunches for poor kids) is a "leftist" view in other places (e.g., developing countries). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:53, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Assuming by the "our" you mean American, that's one way to describe the view of the "right" on school meals, here is an apparently centrist coverage. That said, even in the variety of US political local standards, I find it hard to believe Jacobin and AP fall into the same category. CMD (talk) 03:53, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

The AP rating is "-3.1" and the Jacobin rating is "-4.0", so the AP is barely in the category. Until this year, the AP was rated as "center" or "lean left".

It seems to be based on surveys, and I found that reading the featured survey comments that the ratings are based on was informative. For example, a survey respondent said that "Many transgender health bills came from a handful of far-right interest groups, AP finds" was evidence of bias, because even if the wording of the bills was practically word for word out of the model legislation published by Do No Harm (organization), about half of Americans support the overall goal in that legislation, so (according to the survey respondent) it's "misleading" to point out that the exact wording came from a special interest group. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:08, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah, American public surveys during an election year. That said, given that's the methodology, I'm surprised the Daily Mail entered consideration at all, although I suppose the somehow BBC made it too. CMD (talk) 04:29, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Additional information

To demonstrate how selection bias affects the presentation of a situation, here is another selection of entries from the perennial sources list that tells a completely different story than the first table:

Status of left and right leaning media sources

LEFT	Status	RIGHT	Status
AlterNet		The American Conservative
The Canary		Asian News International
China Global Television Network		The Australian
Correo del Orinoco		The Daily Telegraph (UK) (excluding transgender topics)
CounterPunch		Deseret News
Daily Kos		Financial Times
Daily Star (UK)		Forbes
Global Times		Fox News (news excluding politics and science)
The Grayzone		The Gateway Pundit
HuffPost contributors		The Globe and Mail
Independent Media Center		InfoWars
MintPress News		National Review
Occupy Democrats		New York Post (entertainment)
An Phoblacht		The New Zealand Herald
Raw Story		OpIndia
Rolling Stone (politics and society, 2011–present)		Reason
Sixth Tone (politics)		The Spectator
The Skwawkbox		The Times
SourceWatch		The Wall Street Journal
Telesur		Washington Examiner
Venezuelanalysis		The Washington Times
Voltaire Network		The Weekly Standard

See also Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2020-11-29/Op-Ed. — Newslinger talk 05:31, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for compiling that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:40, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

@Newslinger: The original chart used this source. The was no "selection bias". It was a literal cut-and-paste! What inclusion criteria did you use? Or did you arbitrarily cherry pick? Magnolia677 (talk) 12:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Allsides' selection of what to include caused a bias, as it failed to include many sources that have been discussed on Misplaced Pages. This gives rise to a false impression of the situation, as what is or isn't in the table changes how it will be viewed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:23, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

AllSides didn't pick which media outlets to include knowing the one day some Misplaced Pages editor would include them in a chart. There are other media bias charts available, and they all demonstrate the same thing. This cherry-picked selection yields cherry-picked outcomes. Everyone knows that, and paradoxically, it supports the original point I was making. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:04, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

No they didn't pick them in relation to Misplaced Pages, and that's part of the selection issue. They are not reporting sources that have been discussed on Misplaced Pages, which would be a better selection to look at. By limiting it to only those sources reported by Allsides you exclude many other sources. By looking at the selection of sources discussed on Misplaced Pages the situation isn't so clear. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:54, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Your linked AllSides page explicitly states:

How Does AllSides Decide Which Media Outlets to Include on the Chart?

Which outlets go on the chart is ultimately up to AllSides' editorial discretion.

The second table was also made with "editorial discretion", using a global selection of sources specifically chosen to refute the point you are trying to make.

AllSides says that they evaluate "online, U.S. political content only" and consider "Whether the source is relevant nationally", using the word nationally to refer solely to the United States. Despite Americentrism being a prominent form of systemic bias on Misplaced Pages, English Misplaced Pages editors are global and English Misplaced Pages represents the entire English-speaking world, which is not limited to the United States. Reshaping English Misplaced Pages to represent the midpoint of the two dominant sets of political philosophies of the United States (i.e. turning Misplaced Pages into Ameripedia) is not a goal I or many other editors consider desirable.

It is strange that, despite this being a talk page for the reliable sources guideline, this conversation is focused only on political orientation and not source reliability. The AllSides chart you linked says, "Ratings do not reflect accuracy or credibility; they reflect perspective only." The reliable sources guideline states, "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", so the AllSides chart is not particularly relevant to the reliable sources guideline. Ad Fontes Media's media bias chart, which covers both reliability and political bias, is much more relevant; perhaps you should consider creating a table using this two-dimensional chart, instead, as I did before.

By the way, your table incorrectly lists  AllSides (RSP entry) as "left" and generally unreliable as its first entry. I believe you meant to refer to  AlterNet (RSP entry). — Newslinger talk 15:20, 28 December 2024 (UTC) Corrected "Anglosphere" to "English-speaking world" — Newslinger talk 16:52, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

The point of the original post still stands: the most commonly consumed "left" sources are considered totally legitimate on the English Misplaced Pages, while the most commonly consumed "right" sources are not. This, at the very least, has created such an obvious apparent bias to enough editors that it is a daily conversation. Writing it off as "societal bias" or some sort of "Americentrism" does us absolutely no favors, since at the core of this discussion is whether or not these particular sources are factually accurate, i.e. "reliable".

I've said it once in this thread already, but I believe that it's obvious to anyone trying to actually interpret the neutrality and accuracy of a source that most, if not all, of the "left" sources on the given list have published blatantly false and misleading material, recently enough and to a serious enough degree that they should not have their names in green on the perennial sources list if we're holding them to the same standards as "right" sources.

Additionally, how is the global applicability of certain sources being determined? I find that very hard to do accurately when many international sources simply republish articles from American sources. Big Thumpus (talk) 16:10, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

So here is the thing: most news media is garbage by the standards an encyclopedia should use. Newsmedia has, however, become entirely pervasive within Misplaced Pages because it rushes to publish first and there is a lot of it. It allows editors to keep Misplaced Pages timely. However this should help indicate just how bad a source has to become before Misplaced Pages deprecates. This entire discussion is just asking the question, "if fringe disinformation is popular shouldn't we use it?" This isn't changed by adding, "the mainstream sources also aren't good."

Like we know that. We should be stricter with mainstream sources rather than more permissive of fringe sources.Simonm223 (talk) 16:21, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

What are you referring to as "fringe disinformation"? And I'm agreeing with your last point: if we're being strict about our interpretation of the factual reliability of all news sources, then we should be holding the "left" sources to the same standards as the "right" sources, which would inevitably result in their reclassification if we're being honest. Big Thumpus (talk) 16:32, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned before, what you are seeing "results from a feature of the American media landscape: among low-quality sources, the most popular websites are right-wing sources". The most popular far-left American news website is  The Grayzone (RSP entry), which is only the 123,160th most visited website in the US, according to SimilarWeb. Meanwhile, the most popular far-right American news website is   Breitbart News (RSP entry), which SimilarWeb ranks as the 352nd most visited in the US. Americans preferring to visit low-quality right-wing websites over low-quality left-wing websites is not a problem for Misplaced Pages editors to solve, because the reliable sources guideline applies to all sources regardless of political orientation.Claiming that "many international sources simply republish articles from American sources" overlooks the massive amount of independent research and reporting that non-US sources perform as well as the fact that reliable non-US sources are also afforded due weight on Misplaced Pages. Your proposal to reclassify the reliability of sources on the perennial sources list to fit the consumption habits of people in the United States, instead of their actual reliability, is both Americentric and inconsistent with the reliable sources guideline.On Misplaced Pages, there is strong consensus against your assertion that "most, if not all" of the sources AllSides labels "left" should not be considered generally reliable, and Misplaced Pages editors do apply the same reliable sources guideline to all sources. If you believe otherwise, you are welcome to provide evidence on the reliable sources noticeboard – much stronger evidence than what you used to incorrectly claim that the  Associated Press (RSP entry) publishes "far left" content. — Newslinger talk 16:51, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I said "most commonly consumed "left" sources" and "most commonly consumed "right" sources", which I think would be sources more like CNN and FOX News. I don't have an account on SimilarWeb but I can see that those networks are ranked 28th and 39th, respectively. Which one of those is green on the perennial sources list and which is red?

I also think it's fair to say that a particular source doesn't need to be explicitly "far" left or right in order to find content on them that endorses what people may legitimately feel is "far" one direction or the other. Big Thumpus (talk) 17:27, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Whether a source is commonly consumed by Americans is irrelevant to whether the source is reliable. This page (the talk page of a guideline) is not the correct place to relitigate the extremely long 2023 Fox News RfC. If you have new evidence about any of the sources you mentioned, you are welcome to present it on the reliable sources noticeboard. — Newslinger talk 17:35, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

You're continuing to confuse "left" according to AllSides (which explains "Our media bias rating scale is based on American politics," and "our bias ratings reveal the average judgment of all Americans") and "left" according to a global standard. WP editors are not limited to Americans, nor should we be. As Simonm223 already noted, most of the media on the "Left" column is not meaningfully left-wing anywhere outside of the United States. From a global (WP) perspective, that top comparison is mostly comparing centrist news sources (on the left) to right-wing news sources (on the right). FactOrOpinion (talk) 00:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Newslinger and FactOrOpinion with respect, we are simply not having the same conversation. If you regularly consume the sources in the "left" column and do not find the views they platform to be "left" then that is a matter of personal interpretation, and not an accurate indication of some sort of global political spectrum.

It is a fact that Misplaced Pages fields criticisms of left-leaning bias every single day; to write these criticisms off as essentially a special brand of American Ignorance is not a great example of WP:AGF and, at the very least, contributes further to the appearance of bias that garners criticism in the first place.

It's not enough to just point to discussions happening on obscure noticeboards and claim consensus - many of the complaints are coming from people who came to Misplaced Pages to read about a particular topic, and were genuinely surprised by what they found to be a very strong left-leaning bias. These are not just Americans. It should come as no surprise that a grand majority of these people don't ever show up at RSN to have a more involved discussion, either because they don't know these noticeboards even exist or because they end up blocked after getting into discussions one might reasonably refer to as "frustrating" or "circular".

The grander point I'm trying to make is that while WP:RS does say that editors should not interpret primary sources for themselves, they are expected to use their judgment to draw the line between usable and inappropriate sources for each statement when it comes to secondary sources. In the specific context of articles about American politics or political figures, the Catch 22 is that editors can't even cite some of the most common "right" news sources - the ones most likely to even publish content on the given topics - while practically every common "left" source is permitted, even while they publish content that frequently matches the same levels of sensationalism and inaccuracy-due-to-bias as the "right" sources. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

In other words, The Atlantic, which compared Trump to Hitler in the weeks before the election, gets a pass, while the third most popular newspaper in the United States, founded by Alexander Hamilton, and which broke the Russian disinformation Hunter Biden laptop story...what's that newspaper called?...is verboten. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

What is now called The New York Post was founded 223 years ago. Some obvious questions that occur to me include: (a) why the long-dead founder's identity matters for anything about the present day, (b) why being founded by an ardent advocate of violent revolution against the traditional government is supposed to make us favor the paper, and (c) why we should assume that the paper's editorial perspective has stayed the same through all of these years. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Most of the major discussion that are relevant here had hundreds of different editors involved, they where hardly obscure. Unless there is going to be some reflectuon on the issues raised in this discussion then there is little more to say. The jist here is that something underhanded is going on, well if it has then prove it - otherwise AGF. If someone can show that any of these where based on politics, then there would be something to discuss. Otherwise that the US public consumes a lot of low quality right wing news sources is the common link between these sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

"Low quality right wing news"...unlike MSNBC. Friend, one thing we agree on is that this discussion will change little. I just wanted have some holiday fun and say the quiet part out loud. I was born at night, but not last night. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Magnolia677, you made a table that included just 33 of the 457 entries (7.2%) listed on the perennial sources list and wrote, "When there are 20 shades of blue paint available, and just 5 shades of green...everything starts to look kind of...blue". In one of the replies, Blueboar said that "It might help dispel this complaint to make a similar chart of the right-wing sources that ARE considered reliable". I did just that with a 44-entry table showing there are not just "5 shades of green", and that "blue paint" is held to the same level of scrutiny as "green" paint across the world. Now, I am perplexed as to why you are crying foul.This discussion has already covered the main reason your selection of entries looks biased whereas a broader examination of the list does not: AllSides only lists a small number sources on its chart that it believes is relevant to the US and classifies them on a curve that is shaped to popular opinions in mainstream US politics, while excluding many other US and non-US sources that have a documented political orientation, all with no regard to source reliability. Meanwhile, on the reliable sources noticeboard, editors examine not only US-based sources that AllSides pays attention to, but also many other sources all around the world, because editors cite sources from many countries for all the topics Misplaced Pages covers, including but not limited to US politics.Insisting on narrowing the scope of the discussion to US-focused sources rated by a US organization on a scale oriented to mainstream US political opinions is a perfect example of Americentrism. Demanding that editors view the evaluation of source reliability – using nonpolitical criteria – through the lens of American politics is Americentrism. Using affirmative action to reshape the perennial sources list to fit American consumption patterns, instead of reliability, would also be Americentrism. I am not using that word as an insult; I am referencing the fact that Americentrism has been listed on the systemic bias page since January 2016. I described Americentrism as selection bias and systemic bias, but not "American Ignorance"; the latter words are your Big Thumpus's words and not mine.Magnolia677, your claim that you created the first table to "have some holiday fun and say the quiet part out loud" seems to indicate that you expected a controversial discussion. If you have problems with The Atlantic, MSNBC, or any other source, and you have the evidence to back it up, feel free to go to the reliable sources noticeboard and present that evidence to substantiate your point of view. That would be the most appropriate place to start a likely controversial discussion about the sources you mentioned, and it would be in accordance with the advice at WP:RSPIMPROVE. — Newslinger talk 19:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC) Corrected comment attribution — Newslinger talk 19:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

(TLDR). All I did was cut-and-paste every far left and far right source listed here, then add their Misplaced Pages rating. It was a literal cut-and-paste!!!. And the result has editors madder than a mosquito in a mannequin factory...looking for excuses. Let's discredit the source; let's make up some other meaningless chart; let's denounce all the right-wing media. Did I miss any? Magnolia677 (talk) 19:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

You preference for this source and the ratings it produces is clear. You appear to have missed every objection to them. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:39, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you overlooked all of the explanations of why your chart is not a representative sample of the perennial sources list, and you missed the numerous low-quality "left" sources and higher-quality "right" sources listed in the second table – which was designed as a rebuttal. (You also missed that AllSides does not have "far left" or "far right" classifications.) I am not "mad", and I am not sure why you believe that to be the case. — Newslinger talk 19:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Then use Ad Fontes Media chart. The results are the same. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I already did. The bottom line is: if there are any sources you would like to have the community re-evaluate, the reliable sources noticeboard is the right place to present your new evidence, and you may use comparisons of other sources as part of your evidence. This page is not the appropriate place to complain about sources. — Newslinger talk 19:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

(TLDR) That says a great deal. If you're unwilling to read and seriously consider the responses to you, what's the point? FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Then use Ad Fontes Media chart. The results are the same. That's not true. For example, AllSides rates the Associated Press as Left, whereas Ad Fontes rates it as Middle. AllSides rates both the NYT and Jacobin as Left, whereas Ad Fontes rates the NYT as "skews left" and Jacobin as "hyper-partisan left" (which still isn't Ad Fontes's furthest left category). Ad Fontes rates accuracy as well as bias, whereas AllSides pointedly does not. Sometimes they don't even use the same subsets for a large news entity. For example, Ad Fontest breaks Fox into 10 subcategories, each of which is rated separately, whereas AllSides' breaks Fox into two subcategories. In neither case do their subcategories correspond to any of the three subcategories that WP uses for Fox. (BTW, in your original table using AllSides, you made a clear choice to ignore the main Fox News entry in RSP and instead use the Fox News (politics and science) entry.) Ad Fontes isn't explicit about whether they use American raters, but my guess is "yes." AllSides and Ad Fontes use different rating methodologies. FactOrOpinion (talk) 23:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

My friend I don't disagree that MSNBC isn't a great source, take it to RSN and show that's the case. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't think "something underhanded is going on", I just think that discussions like this highlight that some editors have such deeply held personal political beliefs that they do not acknowledge the facts of the matter - which are that Misplaced Pages continues to receive daily criticism of a perceived left-leaning bias, and that this affects public perception of the encyclopedia's reliability.

Broadly referring to some of the most widely consumed news sources in the country as "low quality" does us zero favors and gets the discussion nowhere. It's fair to say that there are millions of Americans, and even non-Americans, who might view the "left" sources as "low quality", especially after a lot of their reporting during this last election cycle apparently completely failed to capture the perspectives of a majority of the country. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Of course there are low-quality "left" sources; I have listed some of them in the second table. Popularity does not determine reliability, and the reliable sources guideline does not use popularity as a criterion for determining whether a source is reliable. Doing so would be like using a food's popularity to determine whether it is healthy. — Newslinger talk 19:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

So their not being deliberately biased just fools, or again you could assume good faith. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Frankly I don't give a pair of dingo's kidneys worth of care to the opinions of Breitbart readers. If they want to think the encyclopedia is biased for not treating their disinformation website as a legitimate source they can go ahead and think that. They will be wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 19:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

It is a fact that Misplaced Pages fields criticisms of left-leaning bias every single day; to write these criticisms off as essentially a special brand of American Ignorance is not a great example of WP:AGF... First, I don't see any evidence in this discussion of non-American sources suggesting that en.WP has a left-wing bias, much less about the potential bias of WPs in other languages. (Maybe I missed it. If so, please point it out.) From my reading, this discussion has focused on how AllSides — which very explicitly represents only an American perspective — characterizes a small subset of mostly American media, and how en.WP characterizes those same media. Second, I don't see any attempt to characterize the bias of most non-American media or even how en.WP characterizes the full spectrum of American sources, many of which aren't even listed in RSP. Third, I'm not sure what you mean by "American Ignorance." I don't think that it's ignorant for Americans to view things from an American perspective. I think it's normal for people in Country X to view things from the perspective of Country X. I'm simply noting that an American perspective need not be representative of a global perspective. That's not a failure to assume AGF.

These are not just Americans. But you're not talking about a random sample, nor is there any reason to believe that it's a representative sample, so your sample isn't that informative. In the specific context of articles about American politics Most of en.WP is not about American politics. It sounds like your argument boils down to something like "I think en.WP's articles about American politics have a left-wing bias because they mostly rely on American sources, and editors from varied countries have concluded that many American right-wing sources aren't reliable, while also concluding that sources Americans consider left-wing (but that might not be characterized as left-wing by editors from varied countries) are reliable." If I'm misrepresenting your argument, please correct me, thanks. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

As this whole thread appears to have been a troll I suggest we just close it. Simonm223 (talk) 20:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223: I'm going to take your Civility Barnstar away if you call me a troll again. Be nice. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair to characterize it as Trolling, but I do think that there is not much else worth saying that hasn't already been said. People who measure Misplaced Pages against their own idea of "the middle" will often find that it differs. (Much of the world, for example, will disagree with our content on abortion. This could be because abortion is completely normal in their own culture, so they think it is weird that we spend so much time talking about moral opposition to it, or because it is abnormal in their culture, so they think it is terrible that we spend so much time talking about experts recommending that it be legal and destigmatized, but our attempt to encompass all the views will feel "off" by emphasizing the view that is less familiar or de-emphasizing the view that is most familiar.) That doesn't make Misplaced Pages wrong, and it doesn't make people wrong for wondering why their perception doesn't align with our articles and practices. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:56, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Reliability versus notability of an author of a source

Should sources be used or quoted in an article if the author of the quoted piece is not themselves a notable individual, with their own Misplaced Pages article? Is there any policy in Misplaced Pages that could be interpreted as requiring the author of a source to have their own Misplaced Pages page, or to be Misplaced Pages-notable? Conversely, if there is no such requirement, where is this specified? BD2412 T 03:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Reliability is not notability, notability is not reliability. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Where is this written? Asking for a friend. BD2412 T 03:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Although this has been asked before, I'm not sure that we ever wrote it down. However, it obviously follows from the answer to "Are reliable sources required to name the author?" in the Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/FAQ: If you can cite a news article that doesn't have a byline, then sources can be cited even if the authors are not known to be notable. Obviously any such rule would be a nightmare, though perhaps we'd be a little amused by the chicken-and-egg aspect (nobody can be notable first, because only sources written by already-notable authors would count towards notability) while Misplaced Pages burned to the ground.

I suspect the other editor is using notable in its real-world sense, e.g., to prefer sources written by known experts or other reputable authors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

What about the specific context of quoting the author? For example, in Howard the Duck (film), we have: In The Psychotronic Video Guide, Michael Weldon described the reactions to Howard as being inconsistent, and, "It was obviously made in LA and suffered from long, boring chase scenes", with the "Michael Weldon" there being neither of the ones with Misplaced Pages articles, the Australian politician and the South African cricketer. BD2412 T 20:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

It's fine. You're supposed to provide WP:INTEXT attribution for most opinions/reviews.

Imagine a world in which we couldn't quote a scholar or an expert unless they qualified for a Misplaced Pages article. Or if we couldn't say something like "He denied the charges" about a non-notable person. Most editors would agree that such a result would violate NPOV. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

The New York Times should not be considered a reliable source

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Plenty of evidence presented here, with information about many more sources: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhYS59egWQc --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 06:28, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not going to click on a video of unknown provenance. If you can't make your point in writing, I'm not going to take it seriously. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:42, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be a lot of copying and quoting from articles shown in the video. Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 08:28, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

This is the wrong place. If you want to question the reliability of a source, start a section at WP:RSN. However, you would be wasting your time because there is no chance NYT would be judged as generally unreliable. Zero 10:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Because people are unable to think. It is an extremely propagandistic source as the October 7 rape story proved, and this video shows plenty more examples that have nothing to do with the Israel-Palestine conflict. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 08:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Machine learning

Under § Sources produced by machine learning, I removed the statement ML generation in itself does not necessarily disqualify a source that is properly checked by the person using it (diff). What does "properly checked" mean? Does "the person using it" refer to the person submitting prompts to a chatbot or the Misplaced Pages editor using it as a source? Since it appears that most GenAI systems are trained using text scraped from the internet (including Misplaced Pages), I don't see any reason to treat large language models any differently to other § User-generated content. In other words, LLMs and other chatbots should be presumptively disqualified as sources until specifically verified by a human author with relevant expertise. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I assume "properly checked" referred to published sources that are checked by a human author, but I do not think the sentence you removed is necessary or helpful to include in the guideline, and I support the removal. I would also support bolstering the language of this section to explicitly state that sources composed of LLM-generated content are generally unreliable/unacceptable. I do not see a problem with authors using LLMs to assist with research, but any source that directly publishes LLM-generated content does not meet the "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" required by this guideline. — Newslinger talk 02:59, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

OK, I added LLM-generated content from tools such as ChatGPT and other chatbots is not generally reliable etc. (diff). —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:41, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not reliable at all! At best, and this is as permissive as people have proposed under the current tech, it is equivalent to our writing, that is, WP:OR. CMD (talk) 04:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I believe the idea here was something like:

• Rae Reporter interviews a dozen people plus gets hundreds of pages of information from a government agency. The interview transcripts and all the information gets dumped into a magical AI tool, with instructions to summarize it all in the style of a 600-word-long newspaper article. After several iterations, the journalist then decides that it sounds basically okay, re-writes part of it, and individually hand-checks each and every name, claim, and quote in the original documents, because journalists don't actually like misquoting people. This gets handed off to the editor for normal processing.

and in particular, I think we want to avoid:

• A whistleblower leaks a massive amount of information to a journalist, who uses AI to summarize what's in the document trove. The journalist hand-writes a news article about the information in the documents, and it is published in a reputable newspaper. A POV pusher claims that the news article is unreliable because the journalist used AI as one tool among many.

What we don't want is:

• Misplaced Pages editors to say "Dear LLM, here is a long list of people who sound like notable BLPs, so please write Misplaced Pages articles about each of them. They all need to have about 1,000 words and two inline citations to reliable sources per paragraph. The second sentence should say what they are best known for. Thank you."

WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

The first "Rae Reporter" example case sounds controversial. In their current state, I do not believe LLMs are able to process that volume of information into a 600-word article without significant inaccuracies or omissions that would compromise the quality of the output text. Additionally, LLMs are not yet sufficiently advanced to perform fact-checking on the original documents, which would result in incorrect and misleading claims being presented in the published article without appropriate context.

As the section text currently states, "It may not be known or detectable that ML was used to produce a given piece of text", so LLM-generated content that undergoes extensive rewriting and an adequate editorial process should theoretically be indistinguishable from human-written content that passes the same editorial process – a situation that might be comparable to the Ship of Theseus paradox. However, in practice, published articles that directly incorporate LLM-generated content tend to be less accurate to the point of being considered questionable, regardless of what the website claims to do editorially, because the direct use of LLM-generated content is a cost-cutting measure. This aligns with the consensus view expressed in the 2024 Red Ventures RfC and a 2023 discussion on G/O Media websites.

An example of LLM usage in published media that would be appropriate for citation on Misplaced Pages is the Pew Research Center's 2024 report "America’s News Influencers", which discloses in its methodology that GPT-4 was used for data processing during the research and analysis process, although the finished report was written by named humans. This type of report is similar to your second "whistleblower" example case. — Newslinger talk 07:12, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I assumed the part I removed was referring to fully AI-generated content farms as potentially reliable sources in themselves, rather than LLMs as just another tool used by human authors of published, independent sources. I think it would be fine to add a caveat for things like the Pew report, making it clear that sources using LLMs for research need to separately have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

An explicit caveat in the guideline would help clarify this, but I am not sure if it is necessary. Authors regularly use unreliable sources that are not LLM-generated as sources of data, and the author's writing can still be considered reliable as long as the author uses the data in an appropriate way that satisfies the "fact-checking and accuracy" requirement. The same would apply to authors using unreliable LLM-generated material as sources of data. — Newslinger talk 09:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: Let we the audience vote for what we consider left-leaning and right-leaning sources

The discussion about Misplaced Pages's left-leaning bias 1 never goes anywhere in this page because there is a self-referencing loop involving Misplaced Pages Consensus -> aleggedly far-left, or very left-of-center and not-that-reliable sources -> someone brings up the perception of a left-wing bias -> Misplaced Pages editors point to a supposed "reliability" of a source without actually providing evidence for such reliability, except perhaps for academic articles on humanities, that don't prove objective facts either. What if both academic sources and media sources validate each other's "reliability" while not actually being reliable in the perception of the society? That's why democracy and suffrage exist.

Are you guys scientifically minded? Rationally minded? Are you against absolutism? Allow me to present a point.

Is it possible to reach an absolute truth about a government or a candidate? Can an administration or a candidacy be objectively qualified as "100% positive" or "100% negative"? Or course not. In any democratic system, an administration may reach an approval rate of, say, 70-90%, but there will be always people that perceive that administration as negative. The outcome of an election legitimates a consensus, not an objective truth.

The same holds true for thoughts, for philosophy, and for subjective classification of things based in consensual taxonomy frameworks. So we come down to left-right and reliable-unreliable classification:

Where did the reliable sources consensus come from? As far as I know, the bulk of it came arbitrarily from MrX's point of view in 07/28/2018. Who is he/she/they? Is this legitimate? Does the consensus of Misplaced Pages reflect the consensus of the general public? Who said so?

Let's suppose a consensus exists among the general audience, that there is a leftist bias in Misplaced Pages. Not only we are failing to properly address this, by not measuring or acknowledging it, but also Misplaced Pages would be contributing negatively for a biased media environment.

Let's suppose, for contrast, that there isn't a consensus among the general public that the leftist bias of Misplaced Pages is real. In this scenario Misplaced Pages would be luckier, but still negligent because it lacks a legitimate evidence for the perceived reliability and bias of its sources. What legitimates a president? There is a reason why he/she can't be elected by a special chaste of "specialists". The only legitimate means to claim power is through direct vote. Similarly, I propose that the only legitimate means to claim that a certain source is "reliable" and "has a certain political bias" is through vote.

I noted that Fox News isn't considered reliable specifically for transgender topics. What if the consensus among the general public is that several sources aren't reliable specifically for politically-charged topics? And... If the perceived consensus of left-right in the US is different from the rest of the world, we can address politics of each country separately. To be honest, I don't actually agree that the left-right division in the US is that much different from the rest of the world. What I see are left-friendly editors using very questionable and fragile statements ("the Democratic Party would be center-right in Europe"/"it doesn't matter if practically every self-identified leftist votes blue"/"source X follows the broader capitalist economic agenda, therefore it can't be called leftist") to pass far-left and verifiably flawed sources as flawless and reliable. And, by verifiably, I mean that it's verifiable through factual confrontation with other sources, suffrage, and intense civil scrutiny of what common citizens perceive, verify, think and say. Does anyone here value common citizens? There is a thing named afer this, it's "Communism" you know. Some people confuse it with free healthcare, but the historical consensus is that we were never capable of implementing it.

I know I may sound harsh and pretentious, but the political bias debacle is really annoying and tiresome. In my perception, Misplaced Pages's credibility for politically-charged topics has deteriorated since its foundation.

To wrap things up, in my point of view the current sources guidelines are a false consensus. They weren't built bottom-up from a consensus to begin with. They are illegitimate in the present moment, and have to be replaced by a proper consensus built from scratch. I propose that you all Misplaced Pages editors gather valid evidence - in the form of popular votes from the general audience - so you can legitimately claim that some source is "reliable" or "non-reliable", and "right-leaning" or "left-leaning" as well. Otherwise, the existing "reliable sources" and "center-right/center/left" labels are nothing but arbitrary and personal. And Misplaced Pages, once envisioned as a tool by the community, for the community, is just another voice of arbitrary "truths" as told by media oligarchs. JC Beltrano (talk) 07:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

@JC Beltrano, you are in the top 20% of contributors to Misplaced Pages. Congratulations. But this means that you stopped being part of "we the audience" several years ago.

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources ("WP:RSP") came from hundreds of prior discussions, mostly at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Most of those discussions are linked on the page. If you want to influence RSP's contents in the future, then keep an eye on that noticeboard. At the moment, I notice a discussion in which an editor proposes slightly loosening the RSP classification on a left-wing source, and the proposal is being soundly rejected. Another left-wing source looks like it might get downgraded.

Something that you might want to think about is that what's "left" in US politics is "center" in European politics, so if we open it to a popular vote, you might get outvoted. Personally, I think it'd be best if we evaluated sources based on whether they get the facts right, rather than whether they're left or right or center. Good Misplaced Pages editors can build a neutral article even if the sources have the "wrong" political slant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a forum. So let's stop this silliness. Simonm223 (talk) 12:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

"But this means that you stopped being part of "we the audience" several years ago." The categories aren't mutually exclusive. Also, this is irrelevant. "If you want to influence RSP's contents in the future, then keep an eye on that noticeboard." From that noticeboard, I gather that Misplaced Pages is now a purple place: several reconsiderations and revisions denied. But it's pointless anyways, because something happened in this site in the last years so that discussions end with 10-20 votes favorable to non-consensual left-wing views that don't reflect society, thus should have no place in an encyclopedia that claims to be neutral. I actually found zero evidence to support the claim that HuffPost deserves to be treated better than Breitbart in a neutral encyclopedia. This isn't too different from a solo work of a random MrX - that also happens quite frequently. I mean... Drawing an analogy between Misplaced Pages and a printed encyclopedia, a chief editor is free to editorialize it to reflect only left-wing POV, but the problem is to claim neutrality. All the people involved in the typical RfC and editing of project pages won't consider for a second that they maybe, just maybe, are throwing the neutrality of their own project on the mud for not acknowledging that they are basing an entire encyclopedia on anecdotal samples of a dozen left-sympathetic people. Now, how this anecdotal leftist sample took over and is granted to win all critical decisions in the wiki, is beyond my research. You will keep editorializing this with a left bias until the worse happens (some right-leaning tech oligarch takes this project over) and it's not like my complaints will make any difference. I'm doing this mostly for the sake of historical record. The irony is that if a right-leaning "fascist" technocrat takes over this (very politically strategic) website, he/she probably will appoint an admin team more balanced and diverse than the current one. "Something that you might want to think about is that what's "left" in US politics is "center" in European politics, so if we open it to a popular vote, you might get outvoted. If this is true at all, let's open to popular community vote then. JC Beltrano (talk) 01:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Re: consensus of the general public.

The general public is an idiot. What matters is the consensus of expert reliable sources. The general public may believe that earth is 6000 years old. Their view is irrelevant. What matters is the view of planetary scientists, geologists, and other qualified experts, who all agree that Earth's about 4.5 billion years old.

If the general public has a problem with this, too bad. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 12:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

"The general public is an idiot." Great! Wow, this is seriously some of the most reactionary statements I've read in a while. Let's raise the minimum voting age to 25 then. Let's restrict voting to only real estate-owner men. Why not change the main page from "Welcome" to "Welcome, idiot. We hope Misplaced Pages makes you less idiot"? "What matters is the consensus of expert reliable sources." What experts? Galileo was dismissed by the most credible board of experts of his time. Jordan Peterson is an expert, Alexandr Dugin is an expert, and taking the word literally, even Steve Bannon is an expert. But some experts are, somehow, being called by other experts "fascist" of "far-right". Joseph Goebbels was an expert, too. The Wiki is treating some experts as more expert than the others. Every "expert" association have their own set of oligarchs and trillionaire assets management funds behind them enough to raise conflict-of-interest questions. The best a free and neutral encyclopedia can do is to treat all oligarchs and billionaires equally, with the same degree of untrustworthiness. "What matters is the view of planetary scientists, geologists, and other qualified experts, who all agree that Earth's about 4.5 billion years old." This is a false equivalence. You are comparing apples to oranges. The approximate age of planet Earth is an objective datum that has been estimated using best evidence. So, what is the best evidence to estimate the political alignment of a media vehicle or a party? Well, reach to the civil society itself. The best political scientist gives more importance to the self-identification of voters of that party, and the perception of the audience of the media, than what his academic colleagues have to say individually, or to what the party declares officially. If you do a poll and the evidence shows that practically all the self-identified left-wing voters choose the Democratic Party, you, as a good political scientist, don't blindly conform to the self-designation of that party as "centrist", "big-tent" or "center-right". The best current evidence points to the Democratic Party being a center-left party, the same way it showed a center-right party until 1996. The people's perception and political action has greater relevance than whatever bullshit the party says about itself. Adolf Hitler put the -socialist suffix in his party, for instance. And the Republican Party doesn't self-identify officially as fascist. JC Beltrano (talk) 01:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy and our original research cannot be used in Misplaced Pages articles. Misplaced Pages editors are indeed "scientifically minded"; see User:Guy Macon/Yes. We are biased. — Newslinger talk 14:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

So the policy of the site is to just ignore problems. Fine, I guess? Just apathetically point to links. No arguments, no evidence for decisions. This deadpan attitude is making Wiki go downhill. No comment on Larry Singer's statements? He is an expert, you see. No shock for the current impossibility of referencing right-leaning sources on political topics while left-leaning sources aren't banned? No one here provided valid evidence that MSNBC is more reliable for politics (thus, presumably less biased) than Fox News and New York Post. Anyways, this section is ready for purple. JC Beltrano (talk) 01:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The policy of the site is that failing to kowtow to popular opinion, including but not limited to the popular opinion in the US, is not actually a problem.

An argumentum ad Larryem sounds pretty irrelevant. I can agree that he's an expert on his own opinions, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Your very long comment has not actually identified a problem, especially because your premises are wrong. While MrX started the perennial sources list, it is incorrect to claim that "the bulk of it came arbitrarily from MrX's point of view in 07/28/2018". That list is a summary of discussions on the reliable sources noticeboard, a venue that has received contributions from thousands of editors representing a wide variety of views. There are plenty of right-leaning sources that are cited on Misplaced Pages, of which the ones listed here are a very small selection. If you have new evidence concerning MSNBC, Fox News, the New York Post, or any other source that you would like to start a discussion about, you are free to present that evidence on the noticeboard.

Reading, understanding, and applying the policies and guidelines is a fundamental part of being a Misplaced Pages editor. I recommend reading the policy on consensus to learn about how editors make decisions on Misplaced Pages. Soliciting votes from readers to determine article content is not how Misplaced Pages is written, but you are welcome to create your own online encyclopedia on your personal website if you would like to engage in that experiment.

And no, Larry Sanger is not an expert in politics, because experts in politics do not make statements like this. — Newslinger talk 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• The key to political labeling (far-right, right, center, left, far-left) is INTEXT attribution. Misplaced Pages should not label things ourselves, we should inform our readers of the labels applied by our sources. Blueboar (talk) 14:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

  In an article, I completely agree with you. But the OP's concern appears to be that Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#New York Post does not endorse the newspaper's (lack of) fact checking and corrections. He'd probably be upset about the facts reported (and cited) in New York Post#Content, coverage and criticism, too, but the complaint itself is about our internal notes at WP:RSP. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press