| Revision as of 13:54, 22 October 2013 view sourceMarshalN20 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers15,094 edits →Problems at War of the Pacific← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 22:11, 22 January 2025 view source Cremastra (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers23,809 edits →Discussion: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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| As this page concerns INCIDENTS: | |||
| Place the PAGENAME of the incident in the header. | |||
| == ] and persistant ], ], and ]-failing articles == | |||
| Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header. | |||
| {{atop|This section has been stale for a few days and was at the top of ANI (i.e. the oldest un-archived post) and about to be automatically archived without action. I find consensus for an indefinite (not infinite, you may appeal your restriction at ] if you can create some articles through AfC that demonstrate a better understanding of the policies) ban from creating articles in main space against ]. They may only create articles using the AfC process. This editing restriction will be logged at ]. ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
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| ] has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of ] and ] seems to be lacking substantially. | |||
| Do not place links in the section headers. | |||
| (Immediately UNDER the header is preferred). | |||
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| Entries may be refactored based on the above. | |||
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| * was deleted for ] | |||
| == Ongoing harassment of administrator by editor == | |||
| * on ] and ] grounds | |||
| *{{userlinks|Thewolfchild}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Toddst1}} | |||
| * on ] and ] | |||
| '''Summary'''. Twc and Todd had an acrimonious dispute on an article talk page. Since that time, Twc has been harassing Todd by refactoring Todd's talk page, not staying away from Todd's talk page, and by refactoring comments on Twc's own talk page. | |||
| *They've been warned about ] and . | |||
| '''Disclosure'''. Todd asked me to look into this. To my knowledge, I've never had any contact with Twc before this. | |||
| *] which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in ) | |||
| '''Details'''. The dispute began on September 20 on the of ] and revolved around the term "mental retardation". Todd noted that the term was politically incorrect but that it was still widely used. Twc jumped in on October 2 and rather than focus on whether the term is still used and supported by reliable sources went off on a soapbox about how the word "retarded" is offensive, particularly to the disabled community. Twc equated the word "retarded" to the word "nigger". | |||
| *Plenty of articles containing only one source ], ], ], ], ], ] | |||
| Todd tried to bring the discussion back to what the article should say per reliable sources, and said that Twc's ] was irrelevant to Misplaced Pages. Twc criticized Todd for not being civil (Todd asked if Twc was "incapable of reading the OP", which is, in my view, mildly uncivil and unnecessary, although provoked). There was also a fight over Twc's allusion to ] (he called her ignorant for apparently using the word). Todd told Twc that it was a violation of ] for Twc to say that. (My view: not a major violation of BLP - stronger argument is it was irrelevant and evinced continued soapboxing by Twc.) Todd left a on Twc's talk page regarding Bachmann. Twc complained about it on the Intellectual disability talk page and called it administrative abuse. Twc then left a on Todd's talk page about Todd's comments at the article talk page. | |||
| Most recently there's ], which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted. | |||
| Skipping over some of the intervening details, Twc then left another on Todd's talk page (same idea - first one had been removed by Todd). Todd removed it, and Twc escalated the warnings . Todd replaced the warnings with a new section entitled "thewolfchildish behavior" (not a great idea, in my view) . Todd concluded his new section by telling Twc to stay off his talk page unless he was notifying him of an ANI discussion. Twc ignored Todd's directive , promptly removed by Todd. Twc then changed the section header to "thewolfchild behavior" . {{mention|EatsShootsAndLeaves}} reverted . Twc reverted back , claiming that Todd's word choice was a personal attack. Todd then changed the header to "thewolfchild's inappropriate behavior" . Twc removed the word "inappropriate" . Todd restored the word and again told Twc to stay off his talk page . There was then a battle with ESAL having the last word. | |||
| Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. ] but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to ] someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a ] article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. ] 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It was after this (same day, though) that I got involved and left on Twc's talk page. After Twc responded (not helpfully in my view, but you can read it in the history), {{mention|Writ Keeper}} commented, essentially telling Twc to leave Todd's talk page alone (). Twc removed WK's comment (no problem with that) but also changed my section header from "Toddst1" to "]" (). That pissed me off, and I changed it back and told Twc not to do it again . Twc then removed the section (what was left of it) from their talk page and pasted it on mine with a parting shot, "The hypocrisy is starting to give me nausea anyway." There were a few side discussions as well with other users. You can see it in Twc's contribution history, but I'm leaving them out as this is probably already too much detail. | |||
| :Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. ] ] 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Proposal'''. Twc's behavior is wrong on two fronts. From an article standpoint, it's never a good idea for our world views to interfere with our ability to edit Misplaced Pages neutrally. Also, expressing our personal views on article talk pages is unhelpful at best. From a pure conduct standpoint, Twc's notion that they can attack other editors, admin or not, just because they don't like what they're saying is disruptive. Twc has been blocked a few times in the past for harassment, although it's been over a year. Apparently, they haven't learned. Although they appear to have stopped posting to Todd's talk page, I don't sense that they have learned anything from this experience, which does not bode well for future disruption. I leave it to others to decide whether sanctions are warranted and, if so, what they should be.--] (]) 18:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I checked this ] which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Late addendum, but it looks like the user in question was tagged by a research team on their talk page as possibly using AI to edit, which would track with the article writing vs content quality if it's the case. ] 12:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. ] (]) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::AI detection methods are so faulty that I’m 100% willing to accept this as truth. Sorry about that. ] 19:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised: | |||
| :*1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "]," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated. | |||
| :*2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources. | |||
| :*3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory. | |||
| :*4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. | |||
| :*5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information. | |||
| :*6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality. | |||
| :*7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them. | |||
| :Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "]". ] (]) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.}} | |||
| ::I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between ] and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself. | |||
| ::{{tq|I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.}} | |||
| ::Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails ] doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass ] and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example | |||
| ::{{tq|A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".}} | |||
| ::I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have ] issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass ] before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. ] 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that ''is'' in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. ] 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *So I guess what you're asking for is an independent analysis of who's being a bigger dick to the other? OK. I've looked at the whole conversation at the article talk page, Toddst1's talk page, and TWC's talk page, and I'd say it's 65% Thewolfchild's fault, and 35% Toddst1's. Maybe 60-40 or 70-30, it's hard to be precise. | |||
| * Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the ] policy. I propose and '''support''' a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating ], they gain that necessary understanding/competence. ] (]) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''SUPPORT''' ban from article creation. ] ] 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' article creation ban. ] (]) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Comment:''' While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. ]. ] 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'd be inclined to say that since it is not overwhelmingly one person's fault, and since the section of the article talk page in question has been archived so it isn't disrupting other editors any more, and since either one could stop this by not reacting to the other anymore, that we should stay out of it until they both get bored and move on. But I don't imagine that will get much traction. --] (]) 19:56, 13 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :*:Hello, I think the issue might have been with the article describing the events as "course of hostilities" which could make it seem like it was a continuous conflict. I've fixed that to make it clear now. ] (]) 18:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I appreciate the independent analysis, {{reply|Floquenbeam}} and I don't disagree (as you can see from my self-interpolation) that Todd has not behaved perfectly. I didn't relish taking this to ANI because these kinds of disputes, no matter how much mud is slung, generally come off sounding petty. And I ''wouldn't'' have brought it here if it hadn't been for the sly shot Twc took in changing my section header on their talk page. Before that, I was going to leave it up to Todd to take whatever action he deemed appropriate, including none, given that, as you say, Twc was no longer editing Todd's talk page (finally) and the discussion at the article talk page had been shut down. But, right or wrong, the section header change, after everything else, altered my thinking and led to my opening this thread.--] (]) 20:29, 13 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :*'''Support''' Ban. | |||
| :] (]) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with ]. ] (]) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored. | |||
| ::I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. ] (]) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! ] (]) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. ] 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I dunno. ] (]) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. ] (]) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| *'''Comment''' I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: ]. There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) ] (]) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' This is editor is still creating dog poor articles ]. This is the second in days thats been speedied. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. ] ] 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Me (DragonofBatley) == | |||
| *'''Comment''' - I see it differently from Floquenbeam. In reviewing twc's recent edits, my first thought was that his account had been hijacked. This is the third time twc has been at ANI (previously ] and ]), and the last time he escalated the situation until he was indeffed for gross incivility and for maintaining an obnoxious WikiWarrior mentality. Given that background does it make any sense at all to return to this behavior with a vengeance and to furthermore make repeated self-destructive requests from multiple (, , , etc.) editors and administrators in the last few days to please please bring him back to ANI? If this isn't a hijacked account, this kind of action demonstrates a remarkable lack of ]. And the more you scrutinize his edits, the deeper the rabbit hole goes.<br/>I've been skimming through twc's talk page for the last few minutes and I have to say I'm inclined to agree with Bbb23 that it really doesn't look like anything has changed at all since the last indef block. Nearly every single interaction twc has had with other editors seems to result in a massive epic-length battle. This isn't an editor who is interested in collaborating. This is an editor who is interested in getting his own way all of the time and at any cost. Rhetoric and advocacy for one's positions is one thing, but the level of acrimony twc brings to the project is distinctly unhelpful. Toddst1's use of the term "thewolfchildish" isn't model behavior, but it appears he had good cause to be frustrated and honestly I find the term apt given twc's childish punning of previous foe ]'s username into "a prick" on twc's talkpage record of past ]. These heavily edited, propaganda-spun summaries of twc's phyrric bridge-burning "victories" that he hangs as badges on his talk page under "old news" make for pretty outrageous reading for anyone who believes in collaborative consensus-building. That this "Nick Thorne - prick" equivalence comes simultaneously with twc's claims that Toddst1 has breached WP:CIVIL with his "wolfchildish" term is just the height of hypocrisy - something that twc has nauseates him. If this was just a single incident then I'd recommend a slap on the wrist, but this is his third appearance at ANI for the exact same behavior and he's only been here for a little over a year. A review of his interaction with other editors throughout his career here demonstrates fairly clearly that this is pattern behavior. I do see a single example of him reaching out to ] he previously had conflicts with, and they seem to have put the conflict behind them so I'd like to hear her thoughts on the matter. Are there any redeeming qualities to this editor that have been overlooked here? -] (]) 20:24, 13 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save {{Ping|KJP1}} the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. ] (]) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::It's unfortunate you have taken the point of view you have, as there is a great deal of needless negativity in your summary of what you think I'm all about. I will try to address a few points, in the hope that you can try to take a more neutral approach to your evaluation. Yes, I was open to anyone opening an ANI on this issue. I was at my wit's end trying to deal with this on my own. I simply wanted the abuse of my username, and these empty accusations to stop. A major part of the problem here is incivility. I don't think that calling me (or Toddst1) a "dick", or continuing to refer to me as "a child", or "childish", is going to help solve any civility issues. You are right about the subject header I used, on the list of comments, by Nick Thorne, that I have. As with most of the headers, I simply employ a tongue-in-cheek type of pun. That's what I was attempting to do here - equate the stinging sensation of when you are pricked by a thorn, to the 'stinging' comments he had made. I had no intention of trying to imply Nick is a "pr*ck". We all know that would not last very long, and would be subject to sanctions. Whether you choose to accept my thanks or not, I will tank you just the same for pointing it out. Quite simply, I missed it. Whether you choose to accept it or not, I did. That was not my intent, and as such, I have changed it. Should Nick choose to contact me regarding it, I would certainly offer my apologies. As for the rest of the threads I have 'archived', there is no malicious reasoning behind that at all, despite your suspicions. They are '''not''' "''heavily edited, propaganda-spun summaries of '''' phyrric bridge-burning "victories" that '''' hang as badges''". They are, for the most part, simply 'copy & pasted' from other talk pages, '''as is'''. I simply keep them for review. I do realize that from time to time, I do become engaged in content disputes, that in some cases, are lengthy. After my last block, I though it would be a good idea to keep a copy of some of these, so that I can review what works and what doesn't. They are somewhat of a learning tool, and I didn't realize there was a policy forbidding this. If there is, I will remove them. If there isn't, I don't see why they would need to be so heavily and prominently focused on here, on an ANI about something else entirely. I don't see how they are disruptive to the project. And, if I am using them for improvement, how is that a bad thing? (I wonder... if I did not have those threads for you to so easily access, would you hold the same harsh opinions?) While I realize that at ANI, just about everything is open to scrutiny, that also leads to problems sometimes as well, as the issue at hand came become so diluted, that it is not always properly addressed (though there are some limits on just how much digging off topic is appropriate) Since ''everything'' is looked at, that includes ''everyone''. I hope that you won't use the perceived misdeeds of one user, to gloss over the actual misdeeds of another. Unfortunately, I already see that occurring, but I hope it won't continue. I thought these ANI's were supposed to be neutral, I hoping this one will be - ''''']''''' 07:30, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Notifying other editors from the wider discussions {{Ping|PamD}}, {{Ping|Noswall59}}, {{Ping|Rupples}}, {{Ping|Crouch, Swale}}, {{Ping|KeithD}}, {{Ping|SchroCat}}, {{Ping|Tryptofish}}, {{Ping|Cremastra}} and {{Ping|Voice of Clam}}. If I missed anyone else sorry ] (]) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: ]. ] ] 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of ], ], ] and now redirected ] and ]. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. ] (]) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. ] (]) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Also this discussion: ]. ] (]/]) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on. | |||
| :I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. ] is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, ''then'' we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions. | |||
| :I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to ] and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends. | |||
| :Happy editing, <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --] (]) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing ] (]) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@]: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? ] (]/]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? ] (]) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as ]. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. ] (]/]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? ] (]/]) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. ] (]) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. ] (]) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. ''']''' (]) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. ] (]) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::These are good points. | |||
| :::However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI''-like'' thing may be in order. ], anyone? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course ] is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? ] (]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. ] (]/]) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break ] and ]. ] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add ] (]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ec}} The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think it's the latter. @]: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. ] (]/]) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. ] (]) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. ''']''' (]) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Yeah, I agree to that. @] if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to ] but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? ] (]) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::] is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in ]. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely ]. ''']''' (]) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC ] (]) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? ] ] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. ] (]) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? ] ] 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? ] (]/]) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@]: while you're taking a breather as @] suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? ] (]/]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::], ], ] (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example ] and ]. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for ] and the ]. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. ] (]) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? ] (]/]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near ]. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the ] commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings ] (]) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- ] (]) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *DragonofBatley has agreed to a ] to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? ] (]/]) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --] (]) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? ] (]) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. ] (]/]) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. ''']''' (]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. ] (]/]) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --] (]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- ] (]) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::{{outdent|0}} Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. ] (]/]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --] (]) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? ] (]/]) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *@]: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? ] (]/]) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for ]. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. ] (]) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see '''any''' new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. ] (]/]) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::{{ec}} {{u|KJP1}} has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - ] (]) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you ]. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. ] (]) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the ]erifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? ] (]/]) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{ec}} Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - ] (]) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. ] (]) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). {{u|KJP1}} provided a for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - ] (]) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they ''understand'' source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. ] ] 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements ''and'' that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - ] (]) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::That's a great point, you're right, @]. ] ] 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::I responded to @] earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with ] ] and ]. Also conflict edit was not directed at @], there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. ] (]) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's ] was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from ] and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing. | |||
| *:::And also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. ]] 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}} | |||
| The issues are ] and source integrity; ]; and the suggestion of ] while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability. | |||
| Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, ], which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises ] issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC. | |||
| ::::I'm pretty sure I'm being neutral here. I've never interacted with either of you to my knowledge and my intent in examining both of your edits was to see whether this incident was a one-time thing or whether either or both of you have intractable editing problems. The first thing I noticed is that whereas Toddst1 has a clean block log, you have previously been indefinitely blocked for incivility and battlegrounding. My next step was to review your talk page which you had altered considerably from its original form. By reformatting and recondensing these comments under tongue-in-cheek headers you've greatly obscured the record of back-and-forths and of course you've removed numerous comments that you apparently didn't think appropriate to archive. So I went back through a few of the article talk page discussions. I first examined your discussions at the aircraft carrier articles. What I saw was a textbook example of caustic battleground behavior. I then examined your battle over Christine Aguilera and again found it to showcase the way of the warrior rather than a collaboration-oriented consensus-seeking discussion. The same behavior is evident at the "Justin Timberlake", "The Avengers (2012 film)", and "Clausewitz" squabbles among others. The pattern behavior is quite evident. So in trying to determine the background of this current issue I see two editors who have both obnoxiously templated each other. One seems to have lost his cool, and the other seems to be an unrepentant WikiWarrior. I was particularly struck by the hypocrisy of the fact that this "thewolfchildish behavior" term appeared to be the crux of your battle when less than a week ago the summary of a dispute between you and User:Nick Thorne "Botany 101: Beware of thorns, you might get a prick" - arguably a more offensive bastardization of another editor's username. I accept your thanks in pointing this out to you, but I feel your explanation rings falsely. From my perspective the whole argument between you and Toddst1 is just another example of your longstanding battleground mentality - something which ''must'' end whether through your own resolve or by another indefinite block. Toddst1's "crimes," which amount to a tongue-in-cheek type of pun on your name and calling a member of congress an idiot, are completely trivial compared to the lengthy and rancorous battles that you engage yourself in wherever you edit. Anyway that's what it looks like to an uninvolved outsider. -] (]) 11:45, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. ] (]) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Sorry, but I don't particularly find you being all that neutral. You have not only been quite heavy with your criticism, but completely one-sided. And above all, I do not appreciate being called a liar. You raised an issue about my archiving discussions on my talk page, that I don't even think is an issue. You have cited, ''again'', the subject heading involving Nick Thorne, without mentioning the actions I have since taken to correct it. Despite that, you depict it as "''arguably a more offensive bastardization of another editor's username''". - "Arguably" ''indeed''. If you can't see the difference, then I am at a loss on how to further address this with you, so I won't. You complain about ''my'' "cherry-picking" certain quotes, but you yourself are now guilty of that, right here, right now. You mention discussions such as "Avengers" and "Clausewitz", yet they are from '''a year and a half ago''' (and prior my last block), and you throw them out here as if they are obvious examples of wrong-doing, solely on my part, when they are not. You mentioned a "battle at Christina Aguilera"... it was actually a discussion at the BLP Project talk page, and it involved the BLP's of many actors and entertainers, Aguilera and Timberlake, included among them. You failed to notice that as lengthy as it was, it involved one other person, an admin, and we didn't result to personal attacks, nor did he post false warnings on my talk page and threaten to abuse his admin tools. I don't see you condemning him for remaining in the discussion as long as I did, nor do I see you mentioning the multiple users that supported my position in that debate. It's relatively easy to go thru any user's contribs, pick and choose a handful of edits that suit your need, and then call it a "pattern". But your opinion of me as an "unrepentant wiki-warrior", is one that I will be taking with a ]. I will say however, that as much as I disagree with you, I am not completely dismissing all of your comments. I will take them under advisement, and in the future, try and avoid any actions on my part that may actually validate your concerns. I thank you again for your contributions here, and hope that you will now give others an opportunity it to contribute. - ''''']''''' 23:14, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I can understand why you would have a difficult time evaluating the neutrality of my observations given that you are heavily invested in one side of the dispute and given that I am finding that side more at fault than the other side. Obviously I have no motivation to be non-neutral except as warranted by the facts of the case, though, so I will be taking your implicit accusation of bias with a grain of salt myself. You are quite right that it takes more than one editor to battle and that the battlegrounds mentioned above involve other editors. But there is one common element that runs through all of these battles, and that element is User:Thewolfchild. I haven't mentioned the admins you were doing battle with because they only took part in individual battles whereas you seem to be in the habit of engaging in battles wherever you edit. And I should note that I get this impression primarily from your own battle archives that you've now wiped from your talk page. You're still pretty new here and there is no good reason why you should have engaged in upward of 10 acrimonious and epic-length arguments so far nor why this should be your ''third'' visit to AN/I. At a certain point you have to stop pointing the finger at everyone else and accept that it is ''your'' behavior that is most likely at least partially to blame. I'm encouraged by your claim that you aren't completely dismissing all my comments and that you'll take them into advisement. I really hope you do because, again, as an outside observer I see very little in the way of improvement since your last indef. block. You're walking on eggshells and you're carrying a ]. Not a clever vantage point from which to be challenging administrators to bring you to AN/I for evaluation. -] (]) 00:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --] (]) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::This is becoming circular, and consequently, lengthy. I could, again, disagree with you point by point but... to what end? I see an accusation forming on the horizon of this thread being another example of my treating WP as a battleground (whereas, you of course are merely "just contributing", right?). As far as this ANI is concerned, did I "harass" another user? No, I don't believe that I did. Did I care if an ANI was created? Initially, no, I didn't, as I had hoped it would bring an end to the personal attacks and empty accusations being posted about me. Perhaps I was naïve in thinking this, but then again... what do I know? I'm "still pretty new here". - ''''']''''' 02:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. ] (]) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I hope you haven't take offense at that observation. It was just a comparison of your total edit count to your number of battles and your number of visits to AN/I. You're not brand new of course, but you do have a particularly high level of conflict for your level of involvement with Misplaced Pages. If you ''were'' brand new then this wouldn't be as big of a deal, but you should be starting to understand the culture by now. I hope you are beginning to see that this isn't a gladiator's arena. | |||
| ::::::::Regarding my contributions, I'm no model Wikipedian but I invite you to review my block log, my AN/I record, and the number of huge and nasty arguments I've been involved with during my tenure here at Misplaced Pages. Anyway I agree that a point-by-point refutation would be a waste of time for all parties. If you emerge from this unscathed then think it's time you hung up the battle axe once and for all, accepted (even if just internally) that you need to find a more peaceable and collaborative approach to editing, and avoided any further situations that could land you in AN/I regardless of your feelings of injury and innocence. Let's imagine, for example, that instead of edit warring with Toddst1 over the mild insult of calling your behavior "wolfchildish" you instead acted like an adult and just walked away. There's nothing admirable about escalating your every disagreement. Had you just let it go it would have been obvious to anyone which of you was the childish one and there would have been no reason whatsoever for me to review your sordid edit history. -] (]) 04:22, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on ] quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on ]. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ] feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. ] (]) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' Twc is well aware of both ] and ] ...and if he wasn't before today, he became more aware ]. Nevertheless, even with that knowledge, he has continued his ]. I honestly felt Twc could be brought on board, even with his issues over the past year - this, however, is turning into ] and ]. Absolutely fricking clueless behaviour, even though clue has been liberally applied <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 23:57, 13 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in ], ] and ]. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. ] (]) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@]. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. ] (]) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@], the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. ] (]/]) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. ] (]) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @] or @]. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @] and @]'s earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. ] (]) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the ] and ] concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —] (]) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| :As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban. | |||
| :There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done. | |||
| ===thewolfchild reply=== | |||
| The term "ongoing harassment" is being used here both irresponsibly and quite cavalierly. This ANI is being presently with one hell of a slant that the facts simply do not support. While Bbb23 is obviously (''in his own words'') "pissed off", it is also obvious that this ANI is really in response to , specifically the last paragraph, posted by me on his talk page at 18:13, 13 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| :Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above. | |||
| The discussion at ] (ID), speaks for itself. I can certainly admit that I wish that thread had gone differently, but I was not the driving force behind the terrible, downward spiral it took. Toddst1 created that thread, out of what can only be described as a bizarre, self-contradictory agenda, intent on confrontation. Unfortunately, I happened to the one to respond. My first post was completely proper, reasonable and supported. This was met with unsupported accusations of advocacy and bias, followed by increasingly rude, dismissive and condescending comments, with edit summaries that are just as bad, if not worse. | |||
| :For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, <b>this needs to be a final warning</b> in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -] (]) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In my opinion however, a major turning point was Michelle Bachman. He used a '']'' from one of her campaign speeches, found on youtube, to support his position of wide usage of the term mental retardation (MR). My response was that it was ignorant of her to use that term. Somehow, he felt that was a "violation of BLP", and posted a on my talk page, threatening to block me. I found this to be completely inappropriate. He is an admin, he is in a dispute, and in the middle of that dispute, he places a trumped-up warning on the talk of the user he is in the dispute with, and threatens to block them? Not only is this a complete violation of policy, but ''the threat of abuse, by an admin, is in of itself, admin abuse''. What makes this worse though, is the fact that in ''his own edit summary'', Toddst1 ; "''Michele Bachmann is an idiot but...''". That is a clear violation of BLP, and should result in both a block, and at minimum, a review of Toddst1's admin privileges. Not only is this an offensive violation, but now we have an administrative representative of the project, referring to a ''sitting member of congress'' as an "idiot". That's putting WP at risk and is inexcusable. | |||
| ::Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? ] (]/]) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —] (]) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| (I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at ].) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, ]. {{U|PamD}} stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular {{U|Crouch, Swale}}. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point ] has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.) | |||
| I removed the warning from my talk page, and it back on Toddst1's talk page. While I'm sure some here may find that action questionable, this pales in comparison to some of the actions by Toddst1. If, I am advised that this was wrong, I have no problem acquiescing to this, as I have never done this before, and would promise not to do it again. Anyways, as I found his warning to be an improper use of a template, I placed a , advising him of such, on his talk page. A notice that I feel was proper and, as of today, remains on his talk page. | |||
| * Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: '] is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with : he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here. | |||
| * Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content calling it "irrelevant". At ], PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article ], , cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, ], the entire Architecture section was . However, their church articles always contain something like {{tq|The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.}} sourced to ''achurchnearyou.com'', often as a separate "Present day" section. of ] (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: {{tq|All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.}} (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing ] and ], both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.) | |||
| * Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as , was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.) | |||
| * Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles. | |||
| There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note {{U|Liz}} has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that ] instance (at the end of , which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. ] (]) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Following that, I clearly tried to steer the discussion back on topic, at the ID talk page. However, this is where I was met with more abuse, as seen with this , and in particular, the edit summaries; "''More false accusations and disruption from the child''" and "''enough bullshit''". Following this is where Toddst1 began to bastardize my username, to use it as a personal attack. (ie: calling me "a child", referring to me "as childish", etc.) This carried over to Toddst1's talk page, where he created a section titled "thewolfchildsish behavior". I asked him stop, . Despite our requests, and the fact that this violated WP:NPA, his response was to tell me to "shut up" (''several times'') and to "change my username is I don't it". | |||
| :All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. ] (]/]) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'd like to point to ]: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. ] (]) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly). | |||
| ::I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at ] and ], and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: ]. | |||
| ::I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing. | |||
| ::Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for ], which is also the example of a lead in ], starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{tl|cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice. | |||
| ::Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor. | |||
| ::The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, ] (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material). | |||
| ::It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations. | |||
| ::Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. ]] 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --] (]) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work === | |||
| Further to the insults, abuse of my username, rudeness, condescension, constant profanity, unsupported accusations, threats, etc., etc... Toddst1 has demonstrated that he will, and has, used the term "retard" (or "retarded"), as a pejorative, (despite the crux of the very discussion this all started with). This is seen with this , or more seriously, with this , in which he clearly is referring to me, and is well beyond any boundaries of civility here. Toddst1's behavior became so offensive, that I finally had to state that I would no longer interact with him, in the ID talk page, and I withdrew (closing the thread). | |||
| I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. ] (]/]) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Aside from the ID page, I did try to have Toddst1 cease his continued insults, personal attacks and obscene behavior. I placed two (2) warning templates, with supporting diffs, on his talk page, first a level 3, and then a level 4, after he failed to comply with the level 3. I felt these were proper, reasonable and within policy, but he simply deleted them. This shows all the templates that I added to Toddst1's talk page. | |||
| :I've got some experience of ] investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. ] (]) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Following the deletion of the warnings, the "thewolfchildish behavior" section title still remained, and with this , Toddst1 posted comments directed at me. Since he did request that I no longer post on his page, I to that comment, and acknowledged his request, at the conclusion my post. With my reply, I had attempted to explain my position, in one last hope that he would be reasonable, and discontinue his behavior. The continued abuse of my username was nothing short or taunting, baiting, uncivil and unreasonable conduct on his part. He simply deleted that post as well. | |||
| ::I am an interested editor. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --] (]) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. ]] 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/] in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --] (]) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —] (]) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| ::::::::To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @] has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. ] (]) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the ]. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. ] (]) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks ] (]) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? ]] 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there ] (]) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}} | |||
| {{U|voorts}} - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. ] (]) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. ''Sound of evil laughter.'') --] (]) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :How's this draft proposal: {{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace<ins>, converting redirects to articles,</ins> or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects. | |||
| ::Having seen on ] yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing. | |||
| ::And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. ]] 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. ] (]/]) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. ] (]) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - ] (]) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: an infobox? a few words about local authority area? a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. ]] 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to ], never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. ]] 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thanks for the question ]. To clarify, I meant '''any''' expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing ''anywhere'' on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - ] (]) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " ]] 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --] (]) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Okay, looks good. @] what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::{{U|Cremastra}} - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. ] (]) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Hold on. This goes much further than @] wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? ] (]) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at ]. I've lost patience. ]] 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested: | |||
| :::::::::::::# No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects | |||
| :::::::::::::# No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?) | |||
| :::::::::::::# No editing in mainspace. | |||
| :::::::::::::]] 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.{{pb}}{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):{{pb}} | |||
| ::'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC. | |||
| ::'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded. | |||
| ::'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles. | |||
| :{{pb}}The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but '''would personally favour Option B'''. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into ], a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. ] (]) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@]: I made some changes. ] (]/]) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. ] (]) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::p.s. ] this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. ] (]) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? ] (]) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. ] (]) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I agree. ] (]) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] and @]: option C amended below. ] (]/]) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? ]] 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. ] (]/]) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s) === | |||
| At this point, I'm not sure if the accusation of harassment in this ANI stems from my own accusation of admin abuse, (which I stand behind), or the subsequent edits I made to Toddst1's talk page, which I will explain now. I made 5 additional edits. The first , I simply removed the "-ish" from "thewolfchildish". With respect to Toddst1's request, I added no comments. I felt this was within my right to do so, and I states as much with my edit summary: "''WP:NPA violation''". | |||
| {{cot|Proposal jumped the gun, no consensus.}} | |||
| {{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s): | |||
| Following this, user ] my edit. At this point, I was not sure why EASL would suddenly involve himself in this matter, and in such an odd way, but I soon found out. | |||
| :'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC. | |||
| My second was to revert EASL's revert, and again remove, the "-ish", with all the same reasoning from my first edit still applied. | |||
| :'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to oppose a PROD. | |||
| :'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except: (1) to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded; (2) to comment in AfD discussions or to oppose PRODs or CSDs regarding those articles; or (3) to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles. | |||
| Following this, the section title was changed from "thewolfchildish behavior" to "thewolfchild's inappropriate behavior". Again, I found this to improper, baiting, unsupported accusation using my username. My third was to remove the word "inappropriate", but I in the edit summary, I wrote "''inappropriate how?''". Again, I posted no content, as requested. I was hoping for at least some sort of explanation. Quite frankly, at this point, I had pretty much decided to let the whole matter drop. We were done on the ID talk page. I had not taken any admin abuse accusations to ANI. I had posted no further warnings. I did not engage Toddst1 anywhere else on the project. I wanted to know why he could not just let this go, and discontinue the abuse and accusations with my username. This matter could have been put to rest, had Toddst1 been willing to end this provoking behavior. | |||
| The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Following this, Toddst1 posted a , and as it was directed to me, I , to ''that'' comment, with my fourth edit. Unfortunately, within 20 minutes, my reply was deleted. Not by Toddst1, but by EatsShootsAndLeaves (!). This was somewhat bizarre, as | |||
| I do not even know if Toddst1 had an opportunity to read that comment, before it was deleted. | |||
| ==== Uninvolved editors ==== | |||
| By this point, I am ready to give up. I had simply wanted to know '''why''' Toddst1 felt that my requests for him to stop abusing ''my'' username, somehow equated to "inappropriate behavior" on may part, and beyond that, I still certainly wanted him to stop what he was doing. As a last ditch effort, I resolved to stop trying to deal with this on his user page, and instead, I emailed a copy of the last comment to him. My fifth, and final edit, was to simply add the <nowiki>{{You've got mail}}</nowiki> template to his talk page, but even that was deleted within the hour, again by someone else. | |||
| * '''Oppose all'''. I would have voted '''Option B''', but the user demonstated enough maturity and self-criticism, meaning he's willing to improve his long-term contribution. Moreover, even if it could have been embarrassing to admit, he also cared enough to inform us he's on the ], and as a ] myself, I know that's hard. My two cents go to {{u|DragonofBatley}}. You're welcome! ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Proposal''': Could we maybe allow DoB to continue editing mainspace if, and only if, any additions/edits they make are supported by a reference, to which the quote that supports the edit must be added. That will make it easier for us to double check their work and allow DoB to refine their skills in supporting their edits.] (]) 10:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| As far as I'm concerned, these 5 edits were completely justified, and even if that is disputed, they could hardly be considered as "harassing". If anything, I am the one being harassed. | |||
| ==== Involved editors ==== | |||
| As for EatsShootsAndLeaves, he simply has no business being involved here. As was pointed out, I was blocked over a year ago for NPA, '''and''', part of the reason I was blocked, was because I was supposedly rude to EatsShootsAndLeaves, who then was going by the name of Bwilkins. There was an ongoing situation between us that was quite antagonistic. I asked repeatedly for him to stay away from me, while I also committed that I would stay away from him. He could hardly be considered neutral here, as based on our history, he is clearly biased. The last thing he should be doing, is involving himself here, hiding behind a alternative sock identity, surreptitiously baiting and passive-aggressively provoking things. No wonder he keeps popping up, deleting content from ''other users'' talk pages, and is now taking a position opposing me in this ANI. I will ask again, that EatsShootsAndLeaves/Bwilkins please stay away from me. | |||
| :{{ping|KJP1|Cremastra|Rupples|PamD|DragonofBatley|Crouch, Swale|SchroCat|Tryptofish|Noswall59|p=.}} (Apologies if I missed anyone.) ] (]/]) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' option A as proposed for 6 months. I think its quite clear that that is needed given as noted the burden this might have on AFC but I'm willing to consider allowing some AFC say 1 article a week but I think it might be better to wait until the cleanup has been done the they have demonstrated the ability to create suitable articles. I would say it would be fine for DragonofBatley to ask KJP1 or Cremastra or another experienced user (if they explain their restrictions) to move drafts they have created to mainspace but I would not suggest they do that until the cleanup has been completed. I would also '''support''' option B I would consider allowing an appeal of only 2 or 3 months as this restriction is much more restrictive but I think given as noted by PamD their problems with editing existing articles this might well be helpful especially since if they can't create new articles I'd expect a shift towards the problems with existing articles. '''Oppose''' option C as (1) I'm not aware of problems outside mainspace and (2) I think in any case this would be too restrictive at least for 6 months, if C is done I'd at least support allowing appeal after 2 or 3 months. So in summary I think option B plus 1 article through AFC every week or every other week would be the best option but I don't have a strong opinion. ''']''' (]) 19:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| As for Toddst1, while this did ''mainly'' start at the Intellectual Disability (ID) talk page, there was one recent, previous incident between this Toddst1 and myself, involving this . To my knowledge, I had no previous interaction with Toddst1, prior to this somewhat obnoxious comment that he abruptly posted on my talk page. To me, it appeared to basic trolling, with the not-so-veiled insult regarding my education. Please note that in response, I did not engage him in the hostilities that he was apparently seeking, but instead, I simply asked him to no longer post on my talk page. | |||
| *'''Oppose all''', as written. Sorry, this has changed from what I could support. First, in the draft version that I suggested, I had the word "successfully" in the sentence that mentions KJP1 and Cremastra: "only if DragonofBatley successfully participates...". That's important. The coordinators will need to evaluate whether or not he "got the message", not just whether he made some token effort, and their evaluation needs to have a meaningful role in the consideration of an appeal. I definitely cannot support A, because I think his mainspace editing needs to be restricted to fixing his mistakes. Anything less does not comport with the facts as we have them. As for B and C, I agree with participation in AfD, but that's in project space, not mainspace. I think objecting to PRODs or CSDs is not worth allowing. C comes closest to how I feel, but I don't feel that we need to make formal restrictions of his editing outside of mainspace. He should be able to communicate on his talk page and user page, without being restricted, and he should probably be able to comment on talk pages of articles. --] (]) 23:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''C''' if anything. (Again, wasn't pinged, but I have been a bit involved.) DragonofBatley keeps demonstrating borderline lack of competence. Most recently inserting one of his collages into an FA (I'd forgotten he also added collages) and getting the captions wrong. The clarity and correctness of the posting here is also at or below the standard we should expect for a participant in a writing project: {{tq| If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree.}} I don't trust their judgement on what is an improvement to an article; and how far should we stretch to try to accommodate someone who needs so many curbs and guiderails? I deeply appreciate the willingness of other editors to help them with the task of cleaning up their articles (as well as all the time and effort some editors have already expended trying to advise and help them); I recognise that there are legitimately differing views on some of what they like to do, such as the collages; but I'd rather see them restricted to their user talk and user space, workshopping the article fixes there. (Note: Several of the 400 or so articles have already been fixed, like the churches I worked on. The task is less massive than it may seem.) ] (]) 03:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Prefer''' the less stringent '''option A''' because I’d like to see self-motivation from DragonofBatley to assist with the clean-up. OK with adding "successfully" to the option. It is disappointing that Dragon has recently made errors on ], all the more so it being a featured article, and it did lead me to consider supporting a ‘tougher’ restriction. Whatever is decided, it would be unreasonable for Dragon to be bombarded with too many queries over a short space of time; in particular, AfD nominations should be staggered. Dragon’s articles are on encyclopedic topics; though it looks a fair few will be merged or redirected because of marginal notability. After a very brief review, it seems the use of erroneous citations is mostly a recent phenomenon (last three months or so). Note the increased pace of Dragon’s article creation from September 2024. ] (]) 12:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:That's interesting, even though they have been using this account since March 2020 over half of their articles are less than 6 months old, I'd consider only reviewing those less than 6 months old (at least for now) as those older have likely been improved but I guess there's no harm and might well be best. ''']''' (]) 19:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:"Oppose further restrictions such as editing articles, workspace and general edits". I have no issues with proposals but I would oppose being restricted from making general edits such as updating infoboxs like I did with ] and ]. I updated them with photos and infoboxs. Yeah I made a couple of questionable edits on Holme Lacy but that article needed some updating since it was slightly written with some questionable wording like it calling Holme Lacy a town which it never has been but flew under editors radars for decades. I also added new collages to spruce up the infoboxs a bit. Especially with some of tw towns in Telford and boroughs of Greater Manchester. Also just because an article in 2008 got FA status doesn't make it protected from edits. I added a collage, hardly a throw away from my edits back on Skegness. Where I challenged old information from an old census database. I have agreed already about the articles and to look at my created ones. I even added a couple of sources to Hollyhurst, Telford and participated in its nomation. So i am taking note but I also have other things going on. So my edits or acknowledging of them maybe a bit later than others. ] (]) 03:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::It concerns me greatly that while there is a discussion about your future at ANI you are still making a large number of very questionable edits. I still have half a mind to say this is too much trouble and go for a block, but as you’re ignoring ], I’m not sure that point won’t be too far off. - ] (]) 03:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::@] at this point. I can see you do not like me. I can see this from both your wording of "sub-standard crap" and "go for a ban". Some choice wording and actions. I've already answered enough but your clearly made up your mind. Nothing else will convince you. Perhaps you should not engage further with me at this point. Cause nothing I say or do seems to provide enough evidence to quell your subtle dislike of me. Prehaps you should just let the other editors handle it. Im not gonna apologise further and try to change your opinion of me. I wont reply further to you at this point. Your wording is coming across as aggressive and threating to me. ] (]) 18:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Absolute nonsense. I neither like nor dislike you. I have major concerns over your ability to edit and I stand by my judgement of your output. I have further concerns over your decision to create category pages and work on categories while the thread was going on rather than start clearing up the mess you’ve made. All you’ve done is provide more evidence that you lack the ability to edit within the guidelines. Again, this is nothing to do with liking or not liking you as an individual (I’m entirely ambivalent about you) but it is about your output and the additional time and effort you are making others go through to tidy up the mess you’ve made. ] (]) 18:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Okay thanks for clarification. I understand your position better now. ] (]) 18:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{cob}} | |||
| ==== Discussion ==== | |||
| * I think I would be happier if: | |||
| # there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400). | |||
| # I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "{{tq|This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}.}}" This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB '''prove''' to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - ] (]) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't see why we need to restrict userspace editing. This would allow them to create pages that would help show that they can create suitable articles. If there are later problems then it can be added but otherwise poor quality drafts in userspace are generally harmless. Is there evidence of problems here? ''']''' (]) 19:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Because at the moment there are at least a couple of hundred articles that are sub-standard crap and getting him to focus on cleaning those up is important (rather than leave them for everyone else to tidy up while yet more rubbish is churned out in userspace). A temporary hold on article creation in userspace is no great loss to them and will save a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted. - ] (]) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See ]. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). ]] 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * {{ping|KJP1|Cremastra}} Another element for the cleanup project: where an article has been created at a disambiguated title, it should be added to the relevant dab page (or a hatnote made from base title). Dragon hasn't been in the habit of doing so.| <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">{{snd}}Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| * I'd be happier if everyone would wait to get all of these details worked out, '''before''' posting and !voting on new proposals. At this rate, we are chasing our tails, with new proposals coming out as soon as someone objects to something, and then there's an objection to the objection. This is frustrating, and not getting us anywhere. And instead of !voting on how stringent the restrictions need to be, let's try to get consensus on how stringent they need to be. | |||
| :Some editors are still saying that we can be fairly loose with how Dragon can edit in mainspace. Personally, I feel like all the evidence I've seen points against that, and I hope that those editors will come around to changing their minds. We have a ton of evidence of edits that cause harm in mainspace, in our reader-facing content, and it's more important, I think, to get that under control, than to hope for the best based on Dragon's enthusiasm for editing. Anyone who disagrees with that, please provide evidence to support your view. | |||
| :I also see some arguments that it is, supposedly, unfair to have too many AfDs going at one time. I'm not buying that. We cannot restrict other editors from filing more AfDs. If there's a community ''consensus'' to delete, then that should be that. Again, what stays in mainspace, or doesn't, matters more than giving some special consideration that would outweigh consensus. | |||
| :I think it's getting clear that we also need to restrict him from editing category space, and that the supervised cleanup needs to be deemed "successful". As for userspace, I agree with restricting against new content creation in userspace (essentially: no userspace drafts, as well as no AfC drafts), but I think other uses of userspace, including user talk, and using the space as a sort of scratchpad for the supervised cleanup, should be permitted. --] (]) 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * The user demonstated enough maturity and will to take criticism and improve. Yes, him being neurodivergent makes that harder to accomplish, but he just wants to contribute; stop killing his enthusiasm and help him improve instead. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – ] and ] also apply here. --] (]) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{re|Tryptofish}} I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the ]. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance).{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Thanks for those very constructive thoughts. I appreciate what you are saying. I know KJP1 very well, and I have high confidence in both him and Cremastra to provide exactly the kind of guidance you recommend. --] (]) 00:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] He's had quite a lot of both time and guidance already. ]] 10:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I'd agree the debate is getting a bit lost in the weeds. Are there not basically two views? I think there is agreement that we don't currently want new articles being created, either directly or through AfC, until clear evidence of improvement, gained through engagement in reviewing the 400+ already created, is presented at appeal. Some think that is sufficient, and editing in mainspace should otherwise be permitted, while others favour limiting editing in mainspace to the 400+, and to any related discussions, with others editors involved in clean-up/at AfD/etc. If that is the main point of difference, my suggestion would be that we err on the side of leniency and allow other editing in mainspace. If that proves problematic, we can always come back here. I think there is great benefit in reaching agreement, and enabling Cremastra, myself and others to begin working with DragonofBatley on reviewing the 400+. That will enable them to demonstrate their commitment, give solid evidence as to their ability to learn and to improve their editing, and clean-up the articles for the benefit of readers. ] (]) 07:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **That’s a good summary of how I see things too. If leniency is the path, I think we’ll be back here soon. Recent editing while this thread has been going on shows a lot of new problems being created but no progress on the clean up. I think we’re likely to see as many problems being created as are being sorted, but I’ll bow to the consensus if it goes that way. ] (]) 07:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], I have started to engage with your sandbox you tagged me. I can see some already noted and some already seeing afd afm and redirect. I think you'd be better off tagging me more for articles needing a clean up desperately than ones being afd and confirmed as notable. Ill engage with that sandbox as its on my Watchlist and make necessary changes where needed. Not off a whim since your going back to the start of my time on this site. It'll offload my workload and help with afd and afm to discuss deletion or merging. ] (]) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too ] for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. ] (]) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. ] (]) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I, too, would like to move this towards a decision. It seems to me that the sticking point is over differing views about whether DoB should be placed under strict restrictions about editing, in order to control a history of negative effects upon our reader-facing content, or whether to allow DoB a greater amount of leeway in editing, based on his sincere desire to be a good contributor and consideration of his self-described status as neurodivergent. I think we need to go one way or the other on this, and once we do that, we can get to consensus. There's little point in editors repeating what we have already said, and going back and forth over that. I think we should look at the evidence we have, and seek a consensus – not unanimous consent, but ]. And nobody here is coming from a position of personal dislike of DoB, or wanting to get rid of DoB. We wouldn't be working so hard on crafting this, if that were the case. | |||
| :::::The editors, including me, who favor strict restrictions have provided a significant amount of evidence, based on edit history and continuing edits, to support that view. In my opinion, editors who oppose those restrictions are acting more out of a feeling, rather than based upon the actual characteristics of mainspace edits. At least, that's my opinion. I've been thinking hard about this, and it seems to me that stricter restrictions would provide DoB with ''structure'' while working to correct past mistakes and move forward into good editing status. And I believe ''structure'' to be A Good Thing. A lack of structure would actually make things more difficult. Structure (just until such time as the restrictions can be lifted) would be helpful. I really hope that we can agree on that. --] (]) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I ] KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. ] (]/]) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I'm ND and lurking so I'm chime in. | |||
| :::::::I was thinking of a short period of being restricted to fixing their articles (perhaps with a specific mentor) before being allowed more freedom to generally edit, then any other restrictions can be lifted over time? | |||
| :::::::They've admitted that they have issues with sensory overload already, so having a tight focus on exact tasks with goals to aim for could be really helpful in this case. It will also ensure that the affected articles aren't left by the wayside, as there are so many of them. | |||
| :::::::Having a visual list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed will also be a good motivator and incentive - another useful tool for ND editors. | |||
| :::::::TLDR: I think we should aim for structure & focus on specific, clear tasks, with incentives for reaching certain goals. The best way to do this would be to restrict to fixing the articles then gradually expand the scope of editing over time. ] (]) 22:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::@] {{tqq| list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed}} there's ]. ] (]) 22:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles == | |||
| That pretty much concludes my statement. The sad thing is, as lengthy as it is, it still does not cover every instance on abusive, insulting, disruptive, obscene, editing on the part of Toddst1. Nor the questionable actions of the users who have shown up on both my and his talk pages, clearly in support of him, regardless of how neutral and uninvolved they claim to be. But to be honest, I don't really care. I am only participating here to defend myself. Despite the many opportunities, (and dares), I had to bring this to ANI myself, I didn`t, because I am not really interested in this sort of stuff (actually, speaking of ''interesting'', it's curious how it wasn't Toddst1 that brought this ANI either, but Bbb23. and there is also the timing - right after my post on his talk page...) I don't really care what comes out of this. The community can/will review what I have done, but should certainly review, in great depth and detail, what Toddst1 has done, along with his companions, and in the end, what even happens, happens. For me, I don't feel I deserve to be blocked... all I want is that my username is no longer abused. - ''''']''''' 06:24, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I appreciate the reply, and as lengthy as it is, I actually read the whole thing. I'd like to address just a few of your points. First, the easiest one. I assure you that what prompted my coming here (tipped the balance) was precisely what I said, your changing of the section header. The copying of the discussion to my talk page didn't bother me a bit. Your comment at the bottom was unhelpful, but it wouldn't have been enough in and of itself for me to go to all the work to create this thread. I deleted the whole thing from my talk page, but that was only because I opened this up, and it made no sense to have multiple discussions. | |||
| ] keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on ], however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them. | |||
| ::I'm having trouble figuring out Todd's edit summaries (when he uses the word "retarded") and your reaction to them. I'm curious what others think. I'm not a fan of obliqueness (I tend to be direct), and I generally avoid it. | |||
| Diffs: | |||
| ::Overall, you appear to have strong feelings about certain issues and a stubborn streak in defending your behavior when those issues are involved. It would be helpful if you had a little more insight into those two areas and were more willing to deal with them appropriately on Misplaced Pages. You can't change who you are, but you can change your behavior here. Regardless of your perceptions of Todd's behavior and your dissatisfaction with what he did on his talk page regarding your user name, you should have dropped it. Ignoring these sorts of things is almost always the best thing to do. Sometimes it's hard, but most of these sorts of things just fade away if you let them, and if you really think someone is intentionally provoking you, the most effective response is not to be provoked. | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot) | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot) | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::Citation '''bot''' is an automated process, and not a human. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. ] (]) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You can add this to the page in question – <nowiki>{{bots|deny=Citation bot}}</nowiki> – or you can add this to a specific citation – <nowiki>{{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}}</nowiki> – to keep the bot away. See -- ].]] 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that ] did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on ], see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. ] (]) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a ]. ] (]) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Citation bot is not a ], but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed: | |||
| ::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348 | |||
| ::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078 | |||
| ::"All ] apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account." | |||
| ::-] ] (]) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the ''person'' who is ''using'' the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Most of these seem to have been invoked by {{u|Abductive}}, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? ] (]) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on ]. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee {{rpa}}. Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. ] (]) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles: | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133 | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054 | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369 | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875 | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493 | |||
| :Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates. | |||
| :These edits were suggested by the following user: | |||
| :*] | |||
| :] (]) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Found another bad date in another article: | |||
| ::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by ] | |||
| ::Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. ] (]) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Found another bad date in another article: | |||
| :::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference) | |||
| :::Suggested by user: | |||
| :::*] | |||
| :::Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates ] (]) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::] is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". ] (]) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Because it is not necessarily an error. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::It is still about Citation bot. ] (]) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by ]. ] (]) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| You have given the operators ] to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org).  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? ] (]) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits.]] 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the ]. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —] (]) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that.]] 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus." | |||
| :::::-] | |||
| :::::] is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. ] (]) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It would be best if the bad source was removed, per ] and ]. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes.]] 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Can you quote the part of ] which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. ? ] (]) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —] (]) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about ], not ]. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about ''your'' use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. ] (]) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::] specifically says {{tq|The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. '''In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account.''' Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot}}. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —] (]) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{tqq|I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.}} I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to ] to me... - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them. | |||
| ::::::::::::As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —] (]) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>moved down from the middle of the above comment (]). – ] (]) (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::::::::::So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right??]] 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. ] (]) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Unsupervised bot and script use has ]. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix ].... ] (]) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::We're into ]. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. ] (]) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{pb}}I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to {{u|Whoop whoop pull up}} two weeks ago () about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed ''me'' to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have ''continued'' to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at {{Section link|User talk:Whoop whoop pull up|Checking IABot runs}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. ''Both'' should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here ''neither''. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. ] (]) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :] is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it. | |||
| :* Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support: | |||
| :** ] says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, '''whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page'''" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot). | |||
| :** BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of ]. Now, ROLE ''does'' have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple '''managers'''", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're ''developed and maintained'' by a team of people (rather than ones that can be ''used'' by multiple people). | |||
| :** Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to ''50,000'' pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the ''only'' people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved ''despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible''; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they ''were, in fact, approved'' implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface. | |||
| :** ] seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page. | |||
| :** ] says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ''''", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user. | |||
| :** ] provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to. | |||
| :* Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support: | |||
| :** ] says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved ''despite'' the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance). | |||
| :] <sup>] 🏳️⚧️ ]</sup> 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy. | |||
| ::"Both should take reponsibility" | |||
| ::-] at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 ] (]) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? ] <sup>] 🏳️⚧️ ]</sup> 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere. | |||
| ::::Policy is very clear, '''don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus.''' ] (]) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. {{pb}}These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. ] (]) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Or, as ] puts it: {{tq|Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked.}} ] (]) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Citation bot has not been {{tqq|approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking}}. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at {{slink|User:Citation bot|Bot approval}}. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.{{pb}}But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.{{pb}}If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. ] (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot.]] 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::☝🏽{{Pb}}It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.{{pb}}I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.{{pb}}Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.{{pb}}Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.{{pb}}I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against {{u|Abductive}} or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion ''somewhere'' specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping {{u|AManWithNoPlan}}, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. ] (]) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots ''and'' checking the results.<span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).{{pb}}However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.{{pb}}Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.{{pb}}Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, ] (]) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"}} Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. ] (]) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. ] (]) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Finally, I intentionally did not request a block or a ban. Obviously, I have an opinion on how you could improve your behavior, but I don't have a strong opinion about sanctions. As I stated at the beginning, I'll leave that to the community.--] (]) 10:45, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 ] (]) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Is there anything left here to discuss? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. ] (]) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:: Why is that example wrong? The source code of the webpage says {{code|"datePublished":"2023-02-25T18:46:42+00:00",}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 04:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Because the webpage made unknown modifications after that date. "<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2023-09-04T22:23:52+00:00" />" view-source:https://worldribus.org/east-antarctica-ranges/. ] (]) 04:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::: If a news article had a modified date, for example created on January 1 but maybe a correction was made on Jan 3, then you would want the date shown to be Jan 1 because that is how articles are cited (and later found). How is a bot supposed to know you might want the modified date instead of the creation date? <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 04:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::1. Not a news article. | |||
| *:::::2. Intention is irrelevant. These edits are disruptive regardless. | |||
| *:::::3. Maybe program it to not add dates to modified works. ] (]) 04:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools == | |||
| :::I posted the comment I did, because I was, (and still am) somewhat confused at '''your position''' regarding the section titles on both Tossst1's and my talk pages;<br> | |||
| *{{userlinks|PEPSI697}} | |||
| :::- On his talk page, he had a section titled "thewofchildish behavior", posted as a follow-on to his referring to me as "a child". I found this to be an unacceptable manipulation of my username, specifically for the purposes of a personal attack. Apparently, you have no issue with ''that''.<br> | |||
| :::- Yet, there was a section on my talk page, titled "Toddst1". The discussion involved my contention that he was abusive as an admin, and as such, I changed the title to "Admin Abuse"... and you find ''that'' so unacceptable, that you had to create a ANI over it? You don't see an imbalance there? I do, and while "nauseating hypocrisy" might not be the best way to characterize it, there is still a troubling deficit, none-the-less. | |||
| I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights. | |||
| :::I have no problem figuring out Toddst1's edit summaries. He regularly uses them to post obscene and insulting comments, ostensibly comfortable in the assumption that talk page summaries don't get looked at very often, if at all. That's no excuse, and many of his comments are clearly inappropriate. | |||
| My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) {{Diff2|1264943166|a message}} for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person {{Diff2|1264946563|made a discussion on the talk page}} about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me {{Diff2|1264940021|this}} message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I {{Diff2|1264940623|didn't understand what exactly was the issue}}, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I {{Diff2|1265117356|wish him merry Christmas}}, he wishes me, everything is fine. | |||
| :::As for my "stubbornness"... you and I see the debate on the ID talk differently. I did not start the thread. I did not make constant, poorly supported arguments in favour of retaining a term that is no longer used professionally, is both legally and morally censured and is now widely considered an insult. I supported my position, and once the fake templates, threats and insults started flying, I was the one that disengaged from the debate, and even closed it. So, really... how do you find that stubborn? | |||
| Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: {{Diff2|1269540618|1}}, {{diff2|1268720318|2}}, {{diff2|1268521356|3}}, {{Diff2|1268313652|4}}, {{Diff2|1268308516|5}}, {{Diff2|1268121077|6}}, {{Diff2|1268119998|7}}, {{Diff2|1268118180|8}}, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is ]. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor ({{u|Augmented Seventh}}): {{diff2|1269323555|1}}, {{diff2|1269333853|2}}, {{diff2|1269126403|3}}. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15. | |||
| :::What I was stubborn about, however, was my pursuit to have Toddst1 stop his insulting abuse of my username and his continued, provocational and unsupported accusations towards me. The fact that, in response to his comments to me, I tried emailing him, instead of making another edit, shows that I had "dropped it". Once he posted the WP:HARASS comment, I left his talk page and tried to find another means to reason with him, to have him stop what he was doing. | |||
| I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi {{Diff2|1269543780|replaced}} my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential ] violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to {{Diff2|1269546279|seek clarification}} as to why they did this on their talk page. In {{Diff2|1269548452|their response to me}}, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me {{Diff2|1269576325|this}} message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see {{Diff2|1269577089|this}} edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me {{Diff2|1269580448|this}} message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. {{Diff2|1269580707|This}} edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me. | |||
| :::Yes, I have been blocked before, but just like Toddst1, you, ESAL, and everyone else, I am not perfect. I am always working towards improvement, just as everyone should be doing. But ultimately, this isn't about me vandalizing an article, disrupting a discussion or even ''actually'' harassing anyone. I was in fact, trying to get another user to stop harassing me. There is a huge difference between adding harassing comments, and simply removing three letters, from ''your own username''. - ''''']''''' 21:07, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - {{diff2|1269549064|here}} they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when ] ] for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of ] without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. ]] 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Just to addresss one point. If you want to say that Todd's behavior is inappropriate on your talk page, as he did about you on his talk page, or if you want to say that Todd is being childish on your talk page, as he did on his talk page, that would not be a violation of any policy or guideline. Even calling him abusive might be acceptable on your own talk page (at some point certain kinds of polemics can be problematic), but that's ''not'' what you did. You made it look like ''I'' called Todd abusive. You changed ''my'' comment on your talk page. That is absolutely unacceptable. It was deceitful.--] (]) 00:42, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. ] (]) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::As to just what is a policy or guideline, what is a violation of a policy or guideline, and just what so-called violations get addressed, where, where, why and how... seems to be subject to constant interpretation here. While some users may find satisfaction, or dare I say ''justice'', among these ANI's, one thing that is ''never'' found here is '''consistency'''. That said, I did '''not''' "change ''your'' comment", I changed the ==section heading==, ''above'' it. And since all I did was change a section header, on my talk page, to say "Admin Abuse", where the subsequent thread discusses "admin abuse"... I don't see how that constitutes "Ongoing harassment of administrator by editor" That is why you started this ANI, right? - ''''']''''' 03:25, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and ], you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. ]] 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. , for example, they say: {{tpq|Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. }}. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. ] (]) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. ({{Diff2|1269544073|1}}, {{Diff2|1269540089|2}}, {{Diff2|1269335610|3}}, {{Diff2|1269126904|4}} {{Diff2|1269098577|5}}, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). ]] 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Seeing {{tq|no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism}} is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ ] (]) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. ] (]) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the ] (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." ] (]) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments {{Diff2|1269580448|demanding}} that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. ]] 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@]: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it. | |||
| ::::: | |||
| ::::@]: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are ''obvious'' vandalism. | |||
| ::::: | |||
| ::::Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, {{tqq|You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents}} - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you ''will'' stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you ''might'' stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. ]] 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{nacc}} {{ping|PEPSI697}} A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page ], ] and ]. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at ] and ] because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.{{pb}}FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on ] that you get {{tq|stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it}} when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been ]. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you {{tq|sometimes don't understand what some words mean}}, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.{{pb}}Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- ] (]) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to ]. ]] 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. ] (]) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future === | |||
| ::::::If Bbb23 added the section header, your changing the section header ''is'' changing his comment. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 14:51, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Based on your recent actions, I would not expect you to say otherwise. But, just the same, I disagree. - ''''']''''' 20:34, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} Just to be clear, I ''did'' create the section header when I opened the topic, and the topic was not about administrator abuse. It was my failed attempt to mediate the interaction between Todd and Twc. | |||
| :I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day. | |||
| When I opened this topic here at ANI, I did not request any specific sanctions. Based on Twc's conduct here, I believe sanctions are warranted. They have shown no insight into their own behavior. Effectively, they are right and everyone else is wrong, whether it be Todd, me, Thibbs, ES&L, or most recently Bushranger. They have engaged in wikilawyering and compounded that by being wrong in their analysis. I am beginning to understand why Todd was provoked. | |||
| :: | |||
| :1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content. | |||
| :: | |||
| :2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one. | |||
| :: | |||
| :3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly? | |||
| :: | |||
| :Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool. | |||
| ::2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection. | |||
| ::3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. ]] 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, I accept your apology. ]] 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Response and apology from PEPSI697 === | |||
| I also went back to August 2012 when Twc was unblocked by {{mention|Amatulic}} after being indefinitely blocked for personal attacks or harassment in June. In their unblock request, they wrote: "I have 'taken some time off', acknowledged wrong-doing, accepted responsibility, offerred an apology and gave a commitment to abide by the the rules and policies of wikipedia." In unblocking, Amatulic wrote: "In the spirit of Misplaced Pages's guideline ] good faith, I am lifting your block. Please understand that any further violation of our policies/guidelines ], ], and ] will likely result in a new indefinite block that cannot be appealed." (see ) | |||
| The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Twc has made a grand total of 2,056 edits in the few years they've been here, of which 782 have been to article space. Even assuming some of those contributions have been constructive, based on their history, their recent conduct, and the obvious ], I wonder if it's time, even a year later, to impose Amatulic's threatened sanction.--] (]) 23:21, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the ] or looking at the ]? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion. | |||
| *This is certainly not the first time I've seen Toddst1 involved in abusive behaviour. Is s/he fit to be an admin? ] ] 09:13, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. ] (]) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **I'll be uncharacteristically brief: yes they are (he is). ] (]) 18:36, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Interesting attempt by twc to deflect away from his behaviour. As I'm an adult who doesn't hold grudges, I do not recall previous negative interactions with twc ... I'll take it from their response that they indeed ''do'' hold a grudge, and that some form of negative interaction may have occurred. Nevertheless, that's a red-herring. Toddst1 was '''well within their rights''' to request that twc STOP editing their talkpage; period. My only reversions of twc's posts were AFTER that message was loudly and clearly stated. Toddst1 went so far as to link to ], so it was clear to the world that he was 100% serious. My reversions were protective in nature - indeed, they were an attempt to protect twc from further action under harassment. Unfortunately, he believes that ethics and rules don't apply to him, and although "no <small>(posting)</small> means no <small>(posting)</small>", he doesn't give a shit. If he had a problem with the discussion on a page he was not permitted to post on, then he should have escalated it to a place where he WAS permitted, rather than repeatedly break the rules. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 11:42, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::There is guidance on how to use the {{tlx|Talk header}} found on its documentation page at ] and also at ]. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in ] and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like ], ], ], ], ] for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at ] or ]. -- ] (]) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with ], but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get ] article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{od|5}} Perhaps an administrator could close this discussion and all its related sub-discussions now that the OP and PEPSI697 seem to have amicably resolved their issue. Maybe all that's needed here is a firm warning to PEPSI697 to try to be careful in the future, and perhaps some encouragement to try not to over use these tools if doing so risks placing them in high-stress situations where they might lose their cool, with a reminder that the community might be less understanding the next time around if they end up back at ANI for doing something similar. -- ] (]) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Good idea there. I agree that me, Jolielover and the others involved resolved this issue. I absolutely agree with this idea to give a firm warning on my talk page. <b>]</b> ] | ] 08:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Similar occurrences=== | |||
| ::Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you {{tq|absolutely agree with}} isn't really all that relevant to what the community ultimately decides to do, and continuing to post here only runs the risk of you somehow making your situation worse. -- ] (]) 10:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I want to start this off by saying that this is my first time contributing to an AN/I so I hope I'm doing this right with diffs and links and such. I've been watching this AN/I thread for a bit now but it wasn't until this thread that I realize the extent of twc's behavior with the indef block and long history of WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality etc. My experiences with twc started in September 2013 and I've run across twc and gotten into arguments of various length with twc on numerous articles so it's now very clear to me after seeing this AN/I and finding out about twc's past that this seems to be twc's ]. Even after our interactions ceased at the end of September, the last one to my knowledge being on ] where I even helped them out and they were still accusatory as if I was following twc around WP. | |||
| :::Ok, sorry. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Non-neutral paid editor == | |||
| In the past month and a half I've seen him display all the aforementioned behavior from the toddst1 situation on roughly half a dozen MILHIST articles. Some were relatively short (], ]) and others were longer with multiple sections on ] and ] (which is still ongoing I might add for 1.5 months now). | |||
| @] is heavily editing ] in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. ] (]) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| My ] on the US SOF article was the first time I ever had to resort to an outside individual having to resolve a dispute. Shortly after crossing paths there he the Special Mission Unit article with the edit summary "work in progress..." but five hours later another editor (SOTGMichael) who frequents that article with an incredibly uncivil summary which I would say prompted a vendetta of sorts on that article. The reason I say prompted a vendetta is because after twc attempted to expand the article twc went to the talk page and the first sentence was "how can we save this article?" and throughout the discussion kept mentioning AfD etc. I even mentioned to him that it was odd that someone who attempted to expand the article would pull a 180 and go the opposite direction and mention deletion, etc. After a while I just started to ignore twc on the SMU article, figuring if I didn't respond he would just go away. After I expanded the article a bit he left on the talk page where he again said it was a nice attempt to "Save the article" etc and twc stated that I wasn't responding because I was "busy researching" to expand the article. I to twc by stating "''I haven't been responding because I'm tired of talking to you to be honest. I don't come to Misplaced Pages to argue with people and that's all that our conversations seem to be. I almost didn't want to respond to you here because of it. Thats why I no longer comment on the delta force/aircraft carrier talk pages and haven't responded here for some time.''" A little over a week later (and after the Delta Force dispute mentioned below ended) twc tagged the SMU article for AfD (]) where twc continued his BATTLEGROUND even there with most of us who !voted against his delete rationale. | |||
| :That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits: | |||
| During our argument on the SMU article twc posted on another article on my watchlist, ]. Where twc started a few sections regarding the article title and how it should not be Delta Force and instead their official name. I responded initially cautioning twc that someone had already performed the move and that it was reverted citing ]. This started yet another battleground discussion about what COMMONNAME was and how it should be interpreted. After his post I left the discussion not wanting to continue yet another long dispute with him. However, two other users, ] and ], discussed with twc about COMMONNAME and after a few days of circular discussions going nowhere Rklawton just called for a !vote for consensus of what the articles name should be which remained at Delta Force. | |||
| :* Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals. | |||
| :* Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity. | |||
| :* - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted. | |||
| :* Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing. | |||
| :An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably ]. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. ] (]) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::done ] (]) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@]: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly ] reasons for them. | |||
| ::#By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as ''"has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world"'' and ''"The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality"'' + ''"The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"?'' Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate ] and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a '''very''' strong statement cited to..., seemingly not even peer-reviewed. | |||
| ::#Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally ], and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. '''If''' that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, '''then''' it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it. | |||
| ::#Do you '''really''' think phrases like ''"China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments."'' are consistent with ]? '''Really?''' ''Maybe'' cutting '''all''' of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that. | |||
| ::# That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently . It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary. | |||
| ::In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably ]" seems downright ]. ] (]) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns ? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a ] and ] manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that ] is supposed to prevent. --] (]) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like ], you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't ''bad'' by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply ''not good enough'' or ''relevant enough'' for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards. | |||
| ::::Given ''this'' context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not ''obligated'' to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. ] (]) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @]'s paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @] provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/ | |||
| :My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. ] (]) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::''Adding'': Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 ] (]) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *An editor with a declared COI should ''never'' be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the {{tq|strongly discouraged}} wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --] (]) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:] So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this {{redacted|]}}? | |||
| *:Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that '''if''' is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering '''is not even seen anywhere on their front page''' - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as . The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. ] (]) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{tq|Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)}} - that would be wrong. See ]; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we ''want'' editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read ], and especially ] Having a ''perspective'' on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. ] editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then ] needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors. | |||
| ::::It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah ] editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that ''every'' edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it ''strictly'' barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --] (]) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's ''not'' the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change {{tq|strongly discouraged}} to {{tq|prohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism)}}. I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though. | |||
| ::::::Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be ''manually'' saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that {{tq|editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests}} - but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I ''need'' to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to ''this'' case, rather than a general statement. | |||
| ::::::Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{tqq|So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this}} Uh, guys? Does ] mean nothing to you? - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The last time from my recollection that I encountered twc was at ] which twc tagged for administrator assistance to move the file which was uploaded with a spelling error. I helped twc by tagging the article using ] so File Movers would also see the request via ]. After that I posted on the talk page and made no mention of our past disputes and said it was odd running into him. His reaction was inferring that I didn't just run into him but was stalking him evidently. I went on to explain that when he added ] to the page it added the page to ], which I look at along with ]. He never responded to it, which is fine. | |||
| *:@] - I think that '''sanction should be swiftly applied'''. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. ] ] 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: {{ping|InformationToKnowledge}}, '''do not''' attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with ''anyone's'' real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the ''principles of privacy'' still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. ] ] 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Could we get an edit to ] for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. ] (]) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ] back to Andrewjlockley === | |||
| I did not follow the discussions at ] once again because I was tired of dealing with TWC, however, since I was watching his talk page because of past interactions there I saw ] (involved in the Aircraft carrier discussion) for twc not to post anything on his talk page anymore. After this notification twc once again on Nick's talk page. Nick again reverted the edit and via his talk page not to post on his talk page. | |||
| :I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. '''However''', that does not change the fact she has been one of a '''literal handful''' of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in ] over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen. | |||
| :With that in mind, I would like to say I have '''great''' difficulty assuming ] here - not when the OP editor {{redacted|]}}, which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective '''and''' when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report. | |||
| :I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the ], the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does. | |||
| :P.S. This is '''really''' not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::With the greatest of respect @], your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @], or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether ] had a conflict of interest when they edited ], which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. ] (]) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::See ]... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself. | |||
| :::All of this is pertinent. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that {{noping|EMSmile}} has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that {{noping|Andrewjlockley}} is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. ] concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too. | |||
| ::::The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If {{noping|InformationToKnowledge}} is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be ''they both should be'' though. | |||
| ::::Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. ] (]) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. ] ] 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please reread ], and especially ]. The suggestion that being a ''published academic on a subject'' constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of ], which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::as per {{redacted|]}} is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech. | |||
| :::Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. ] (]) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to ]. ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse. | |||
| ::: | |||
| ::: | |||
| :::If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. ] (]) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of ] before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? ] (]) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for ] that arises as a result. | |||
| ::::::*With regards to ] has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the ). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner? | |||
| ::::::*AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for ''more'' SRM research in their day job {{redacted|encouragement of ]}}. Also, ] explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be ''against'' doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well? | |||
| ::::::*I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by ] on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides). | |||
| ::::::*Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). ] (]) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery or], but I'll respond anyway. | |||
| ::::::::I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm. | |||
| ::::::::Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way ] (]) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I wish to clarify the relationship between the (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG. | |||
| :::::Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was , for ten years, and is the l. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is , one of five authors of , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of . By quick count, of the other 14 authors on , one other is on the governing board, at least eight are , at least two are , and one is among . | |||
| :::::In the other direction, of ESG's , eight have signed the . | |||
| :::::The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. ] (]) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@], would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? ] ] 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine. | |||
| ::::::For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. ] (]) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an ''oversight'' on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. ] ] 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{reply|Dainomite}} Other than being a bit long, that's rather an impressive debut at ANI.--] (]) 23:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *::They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that {{user|EMsmile}} has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is '''also not on'''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you ], after I wrote it all I realized it was ''a lot'' of information. I just didn't know what I could remove without taking out some context from the overall "picture" of the post. >.< —<span style="font-family:'century gothic';background:black;border-radius:2em 0;"> ]] </span> 01:51, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *:::... gonna ask in talk page of ] if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point ] (]) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * {{like}} Agreed <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:00, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *:::], I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{ping|Liz}} the diff of them ''placing'' it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named ], then it constitutes ] (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at ] think it would be easier to avoid. | |||
| *:::::opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases. | |||
| *:::::alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? ] (]) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on ] of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant ] and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't ] people or contacting their employers. ] <sup>]</sup>] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Solution=== | |||
| *:@] I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In light of an e-mail I received this morning, this topic has more to be added in the sections above. However, to prevent early archiving, and to move things forward, I see no real solution being put to the community ... now might be a good time <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 09:18, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *::This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. ] <sup>]</sup>] 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As the target of this harassment, (and someone who could have been more patient/diplomatic with TWC as Bbb23 rightly pointed out) I've been standing back from this thread. | |||
| *:::I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding. | |||
| *:::Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts. | |||
| *:::BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point, | |||
| *::::the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous. | |||
| *::::AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. ] (]) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I also wanted to question this block. I'm not familiar with all the applicable[REDACTED] rules and conventions, but if I found out that eg the Heritage Foundation had been paying a contractor to edit the climate change page, I would hope that editors would 1) question the contractor and their edits, and 2) separately write to the Heritage Foundation to ask what they were up to. The latter wouldn't qualify as harassment in my book, just a sensible response to a legitimate concern about the integrity of wikipedia. | |||
| *:::::Fwiw I also don't think that EMsmile should be blocked because ultimately we don't know whether they were paid by ESG to push the ideological line of the NUA campaign. Given their long history as an editor, and the fact they conduct themselves with courtesy and decency, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. ] (]) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Does Wikimedian in Residence apply? === | |||
| :TWC is already on a "], ], and ]" parole . It's hard not to see this as a recurrence of those problems. However, it's clear that TWC is in general a positive contributor, except when s/he engages in this type of conflict. | |||
| EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit[REDACTED] seems analagous to . See also ]. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no ]. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. ] (]) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? ] (]) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :<s>To attempt to prevent further recurrences of these problems, I'lfl suggest the following ] for thewolfchild: | |||
| ::I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. ] (]) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :#thewolfchild is subject to a 0rr on talk pages indefinitely. | |||
| :My situation is totally different to @]. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @] adjusting the page '''to favour her client''' (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. ] (]) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :#thewolfchild may be blocked without warning for further violations of ], ], ] or ], broadly constructed.</s> | |||
| ::What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the ] article ]. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per ]. | |||
| :] <small>(])</small> 15:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding ]- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this. | |||
| ::Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. ] (]) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. ] (]) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile === | |||
| :: What's concerning is that they were unblocked with the understanding that any such repeat of CIVIL and BATTLE would mean an indef block ''immediately'' with no chance of unblock. It appears that those were not formally logged ... but that does not mean they were not in force. Is the the ''final'' ]? <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 20:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think the thing that concerns me the most is that twc ''still'' doesn't seem to understand that his record of past behavior is problematic. As recently as 3 days ago his userpage had . An asterisked note pointed out that he was only counting "''legitimate'' blocks." Bbb23 points out above that the request leading to twc's unblock suggested that twc had "acknowledged wrong-doing, accepted responsibility, offerred an apology", but in light of his behavior this acknowledgment and acceptance appears to have been only superficial and self-serving. Recognition by twc of his problems seems to have been a major sticking point in the lifting of his block. It required 3 separate unblock requests which twc treated derisively as bothersome formalities that had to be undertaken by an innocent party. If his behavior had changed dramatically for the better after this brush with indef. blockage then it would have been clear that he had at least internalized the issue and had reformed himself. I see no evidence of that in twc's history of interactions with his peers since the block. It's telling that as recently as 3 days ago the was riddled with battleground sentiments including "The best form of defence is attack", "Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth", and "you will know my name is the Wolf when I lay my vengeance upon thee"... I like the idea of giving problem editors second chances, but I see little basis to give him a ''third'' chance in this case. Perhaps I'd reconsider if twc could provide evidence of ''how'' his behavior has improved since his indef. block because at this point I see little or nothing to suggest a changed attitude. -] (]) 21:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Wow... you really do have a ax to grind, don't you? You want me off this site, (forever apparently), and you're willing to go to any length to do so, even engaging in some of the very same poor behavior that you accuse me of? (Which is no different than Toddst1, I see, going to the talk page of a user who dared to say something negative about him, and chasing that user away.) This ANI was started because of an accusation that I was harassing an admin. I have yet to see you address that. I have pointed out that that same admin has engaged in some deplorable behavior of his own, but you have glossed over that to the point of basically ignoring it altogether. Instead of evidence of harassment of this admin, you have dug up discussions and debates, seemingly only because I have conveniently saved them in one place. You have given exaggeration a whole new meaning by claiming that I'm some sort of vicious, frothing maniac, taking Misplaced Pages apart piece by piece with these very discussions. You're summary of everything that is 'me' is (to put it mildly) disingenuous. When I try to defend myself, you engage in the very battleground-must-have-the-last-word behavior you accuse me of. I remove these discussions, but that is just another source of complaint for you, putting me in the proverbial damned-if-I-do, damned-if-I-don't corner. You complain about a subject heading, which though could be subject to interpretation, you have chosen the ''worst'' interpretation possible. I immediately changed it, but... nope, still not good enough. Meanwhile, you completely overlook the behavior of the editor I was quoting, who if anyone, should be responding to an ANI. You dig up my response to a block, and claim it was a lie? '''Who''' are '''''you''''' to call me a liar? You are way out of line here. | |||
| <s>Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. {{Noping|EMsmile}} is a paid editor who violated ] - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight ''are highly disruptive'' - and that's notwithstanding the ''paid editing.'' Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. </s> Proposal withdrawn. I think I was a bit hasty. Now supporting topic ban below. ] (]) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Then, you dig up quotes from my user pages... one about "legitimate blocks". It's no secret that I disagree with the block that was put on me. But that has nothing to do with my unblock pledge. I agree that prior to the block, a lot of my comments were acerbic at times, and I have tried to curtail that. Beyond that, there are other quotes from my talk page you have an issue with... "''I will lay my vengeance upon thee...''" is from ]. Please tell you knew that. I am a fan of film, and that's where several of the quotes on my user pages come from. This is no different that many, many other user pages here. "''The best form of defence is attack''", is from ], military history being another interest of mine. Quite frankly, that is advice I should have followed. The very moment Toddst1 started to post personal attacks, threaten to abuse his admin tools, and resorted to insults and obscene, immature, disruptive behavior, I should have posted an ANI myself, instead of trying to address it the way I did. (Which, if I take anything from this ANI, it will probably be that). Then you single out "''All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.''" Surely you have heard of ]? Can you show me how it is harmful to Misplaced Pages to have a quote from a famous philosopher on my page? A quote, mind you, that could be entirely appropriate here, for it really does seem sometimes that it doesn't matter what the truth is, as long as a couple of admins and their buddies are here to '''''tell us''''' what the truth is. Anyway, I really don't know how to characterize your use of these quotes as anything other than silly. | |||
| :'''<s>Oppose block, support ]ing EMS for almost ], ]ing AJL for aggressive interactions</s>, warning ITK for ].'''- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy. | |||
| ::::You don't like me, I get it. We ''all'' get it. But really... how far are you willing to exaggerate minutiae and bend the truth to have me banned? And while you're at it, please show me from those discussions I copied, how I have violated policy or harmed the project. Please show me how those quotes are in violation of policy or harmful to the project. And finally, please show me how I have continually "harassed an admin". - ''''']''''' 23:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically ] suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group ] (]) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Wow. That (and the post below) by twc are really quite stupid. Under the gun at ANI, the thread is lingering quiescent think for two days on a board with a 36 hour archive cycle, and the editor comes back to fan the flames??? I haven't read enough Clausewitz to know if the quote is correct contextually, however | |||
| ::From ] {{tq|WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages}} - this seems not to be the case here. ] (]) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{talkquote|When the position is such that neither side will gain by making the first move, it is called TEMPORIZING ground. In a position of this sort, even though the enemy should offer us an attractive bait, it will be advisable not to stir forth, but rather to retreat...|source=], ]}} | |||
| :::like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias. | |||
| ::::::In other words, one should understand the terrain before sallying forth, and the terrain here at ANI is that overly long "counterattacks" are counterproductive and tend to reinforce the perception an editor is not well suited to the collaborative Misplaced Pages editing environment. See the ] of Misplaced Pages. I encourage twc to rapidly and profoundly change their interaction approach because, yea, continue on this path and an indef will follow, sooner or later. (Yes, it's not fair; see ]). <small>]</small> 13:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi applies] (]) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Consensus:''' do we have a consensus that TWC should be blocked indef per his repeated violation of the terms of his unblock? ] (]) 21:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by ] - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. ] (]) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. {{U|Bluethricecreamman}} has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether {{U|EMsmile}} was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. ] (]) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support:''' I support such a block per ESL & especially Thibbs' comments. Misplaced Pages has no place for anyone who plans to ''"lay my vengeance upon thee."'' I've struck my proposal above. ] <small>(])</small> 23:16, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. ] (]) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' It appears that the editor's last unblock request was simply to appease admins, as opposed to an actual change of thought and behaviour towards the other editors on this project. There's no place for false promises and continual ] behaviour, and most definitely not room for people who ] for their behaviour. I appreciate Dainomite's willingness to share their rather unfortunate experiences - this shows that even non-admins and "otherwise friendly third parties" are also being victimized. Their evidence certainly shows that though twc appears at times to be here to assist the project, they do not have <s>the required</s> even the most BASIC grasp of the community nature of the site. Give them a couple of years to move from wolfchild to something more mature - they may have learned how to work nicely with others by then. Based on the above, I'd be willing to extend this to a community ban, but an indef will be easily supportable by anyone who has read the evidence. Someday I may have to go back and re-read whatever interactions I have had with twc, but it doesn't seem important based on their continual behaviour <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 23:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see ] apologize for the ] that occurred. ] (]) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Flo ''already'' provided the solution days ago <s><nowiki></nowiki></s>. <small>no, here--> </small> Given that the stated purpose of this thread was to get thewolfchild to disengage from Toddst1, and they now seem to focusing on productive interaction and editing at ], it would be best if we just let the thread die its natural death. <small>]</small> 23:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. ] (]) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **Is that the right diff you meant to link ]? Forgive me for asking such a silly question but what's the solution in the link? It looks like a non-involved editor added a question to your userpage that ES&L reverted which is why im confused. {{smiley|confused}} —<span style="font-family:'century gothic';background:black;border-radius:2em 0;"> ]] </span> 04:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Strong oppose''' <small>(uninvolved)</small> there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in ''simple ignorance'' (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not ]). | |||
| ***Sorry no, too many tabs open I guess. <small>]</small> 10:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, '''it fails a DUCK test''', and ''looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor''. What I see is a properly disclosed ] editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. ''These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors.'' Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't ] going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :] ] 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. As my last response to Twc indicated, I was leaning toward proposing an indefinite block myself. The post by Dainomite reinforces my view that at best Twc is non-collaborative and disruptively stubborn and, unfortunately, at worst is attacking and dishonest. Based on Twc's comments here, I see no indication that they intend to change their behavior.--] (]) 23:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: <small>((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above)</small> 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, ''otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month'', 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that ''AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI.'' They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including ''very questionable'' off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where ] was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT ''recent'' contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a '''grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI''' (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month ''for over 11 years'')... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either ] or ]. ] ] 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment'''—Has there been a response from Toddst1 to removing the material on his talk page that Wolfchild finds provocative?? WP:RPA does say that personal attacks can be removed.<p>I hope this isn't veering into lynch-mob mentality, which is almost always very bad for the social fabric. I don't see much evidence of good adminning, which would be to resolve this without punitive measures. Wolfchild does some good work; Toddst1 has a record of bad behaviour not befitting an admin (although I don't have a wide sample, admittedly). <p>This should be resolved by an independent, third-party admin or two who know how to penetrate the issues with balance and resolve the tension. ] ] 03:51, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Maybe everyone gets ]s at this point and we move on? ] (]) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I think you'd have to prove that it was a personal attack being removed ... twc seems to have his own bizarre interpretation of ]. Your further claims ''against'' Toddst1 without context or diffs actually ''are'' a personal attack. Yes, the behaviour of both sides is taken into account on ANI, but there's nothing specifically related to Toddst1's behaviour in this dispute to earn anything but the smack in the head (which he has already graciously accepted) <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 09:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats. | |||
| * '''Oppose''' - Why are we going all the way to indef here on a user with a block log showing 3 blocks, 2 of which are by a notoriously aggressive admin? Look, I think political correctness is retarded, and if that's what's at the root here, that needs to stop. But the answer to someone who won't stop refactoring a talk page from which he has been asked to leave is an interaction ban and the answer to a POV warrior (if that's what we have here, I am unclear) is a topic ban. We should not be burning productive editors needlessly. That's what this remedy looks like to me. How about a more focused remedy??? ] (]) 05:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for '''potential civil-POV'' which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like might come off is overly whitewashing, but {{tq|China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.}} but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does <u>call into need for a closer look</u>, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. ] ] 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you're going to question the legitimacy of the previous blocks, you should do so with evidence, not reputation. Note that your defamation of the previous blocking admin does not apply to the admin that imposed the previous indef block for the same issues. | |||
| ::in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group | |||
| ::mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. ] (]) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Strong support'''. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, ] applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that ] only ''strongly discourages'' paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --] (]) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose and IMO unthinkable''' They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Two of the opposes so far seem to be laced with anti-administrator sentiment. ] <small>(])</small> 17:29, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{tq|made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit}}: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.<br>I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. ] (] · ]) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: You can mark me down as expressing "anti-lynch mob" sentiment. I certainly don't care who does or doesn't have a couple extra buttons — although I will acknowledge a fundamental disbelief that extra buttons increase one's inclusive fitness (sorry guys!)... Blind acceptance of a block log is as dumb as blind rejection, in my opinion. Is an indef block (i.e. the death penalty) warranted here? Is there not more logic in a measured, targeted solution? ] (]) 02:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *::Personally, I am much more concerned about '''un'''declared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Upon further review of this too, too long thread, I'll answer my own question: No, an indef block is definitely not warranted here. Both parties are to blame for this. (absolutely unacceptable edit summaries for an administrator). An interaction ban or file 13 for this case... ] (]) 06:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC) <small>Last edit: ] (]) 06:09, 20 October 2013 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Toddst1 has a long history of bullying editors. His name is often seen in admin-abuse complaints. Not long ago, Toddst1 improperly added "sockpuppet" tags to a user's page, and compounded the felony by threatening to block said editor if he removed them (although the editor was perfectly within his rights to do so). Not surprisingly, Bbb23 (his proxy in this complaint) defended him; if I recall correctly, he was the only one to do so. Bbb23 is hardly neutral here. Toddst1 has issued enough bad blocks and inappropriate threats. He should have had his admin bit removed ''long'' ago. That people are blaming the victim here is sad, but unsurprising. ] (]) 05:47, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *:Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet ] . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. ] (]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| "This page is for reporting and discussing '''incidents'''..." (emphasis mine). This is ''not'' the place for ]s on thewolfchild or Toddst1. This thread is waay past it's sell-by date. <small>]</small> 10:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *::I meant meat puppet. ] (]) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::NE Ent, by continuing to post comments here, you are keeping this topic alive, which seems to be counterproductive to your views on the issues. The only reason I'm commenting is to disagree with one of your ''other'' statements about the "stated purpose" of this topic. The purpose was not to have Twc disengage from Todd. Their interaction was one of the ''triggers'' (although not the last one) of my starting this thread. The purpose was to discuss Twc's recent behavior in light of their history and to determine if sanctions are appropriate and, if so, what they should be. Rklawton has proposed indefinite sanctions, which is certainly in keeping with the "purpose" of this topic. As for the barbs against various editors, including the one against you just below this comment, I'm not happy with that, but, unfortunately, it's hard to imagine a discussion at ANI without them.--] (]) 14:22, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Tentative oppose''' - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</s> | |||
| :::This is the devil's den. Ent can hack it, thriving in it for this long. Thick skin goes a long way when you choose to make this a playpen. Jus' sayin'... ] ] 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :*Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :<s>9% article contributions, Ent. You're working your way up from that, right? ] ] 10:55, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</s> | |||
| *'''Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates''' with no opinion on indef block at this time. | |||
| ::I don't know why you struck that, Doc. It's a hell of a good point. ] (]) 19:57, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| From what I can see, looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the ]: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide (emphasis in the original). | |||
| * '''Support''' - per ], ], ], and ]. While I do believe that TWC means well, and genuinely wants to help build the encyclopedia, his style is definitely counter-productive to healthy discussion. I spent over three weeks in a very lengthy discussion at ] regarding the scope of the article, and the for the most part, the discussions continually bogged down over his contuinual harassment of editors over points he disagreed with, and his perceived slights by others over his constant argumentative style, and the personality conflicts that ensued, particularly with Nick T, and to a lesser extent with myself. After a few weeks, TWC and Nick T took a few days off from the discussion by mutual consent. Not surprisingly, the discussions made great progress in his absence, and then were almost derailed again once <s>he</s>TWC returned to the discussions. In my opinion, the biggest problem is with TWC's constant inability to see the role his own behavior and frequently-sarcastic remarks play in the escalation of tensions within discussions, as evidenced by his lengthy responses here, and his almost narcissistic insistence on responding to ''every'' comment he disagrees with, no matter how far off-topic it takes him. This frequently leads to him dominating a discussion to an unhealthy degree, which drives off other participants in the discussions. Further, he even "chases down" people who withdraw from such contentious discussions, refusing to drop the ]. Until TWC recognizes the role his own behavior plays in disputes, (see "Come again?" below), I see no hope of reform. - ] (]) 01:15, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination: | |||
| * August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA. | |||
| * Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary. | |||
| * Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with ] , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of ]. | |||
| When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil. | |||
| EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "{{tq|And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.}}." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "{{tq|That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page.}}" Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client. | |||
| :Just for clarity, I have had very little to say on the carrier talk page since my time away. I believe Bill is referring to TWC's absence and return in the above comment. - ] ] 02:46, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks, Nick, I used too many antecedents, so I clarified that I was indeed referring to TWC's return. - ] (]) 03:04, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Come again?=== | |||
| I have been away for a few days, but I see quite a lot has transpired. I see some editors here are calling for my head, but considering just who it is that's is doing the calling, I am, quite frankly, not surprised. This ANI really needs some perspective, and here is how I see it... | |||
| I looked at ] last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics '''written 73% of the article''', in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing. | |||
| This was started by Bbb23, claiming that I was engaged in "ongoing harassment of an administrator". If anything, this ANI should be titled "ongoing harassment '''by''' an administrator". But, anyway, has this particular accusation even been proven yet? The admin in question is Toddst1. The interaction leading to this stems from the debate we had on the Intellectual Disability talk page. Has anyone demonstrated that my conduct there requires sanctions? Has anyone - ''not involved'' - had a good look at his conduct there? | |||
| <small>I added the paragraph below to my comment at around the same time as EMSmile's response below</small> | |||
| Moving on. There was an issue with the content on Toddst1's talk page, which I found to be inappropriate and offensive. Yes, Toddst1 did ask me to not post content there, following a warning template I had left, asking him to behave himself. Following his request, I made 5 edits. The first 3 respected his request, (I posted no content), I only removed offensive content, as is permitted by policy. Also, I don't think simply saying "''leave my talk page alone!''" makes that page immune from policy on offensive content. The 4<sup>th</sup> edit was simply ''a response, to comments he had addressed to me''. The 5<sup>th</sup> and final edit was similar to the first 3. Following these edits, <u>I disengaged from further editing of that page</u>. I do not see how this constitutes "ongoing harassment". | |||
| ESG, like many non-profits, probably wants to help Misplaced Pages but needs guidance on our rules. It is very common for non-profits to see Misplaced Pages as a form of social media presence and to want to leverage Misplaced Pages to build their brand. Brand-building is not where the opportunity is on Misplaced Pages. The opportunity is to improve Misplaced Pages articles in the organization's area of expertise using top-quality sources. A best outcome for all this would be for EMSmile to stop the COI edits and then work with ESG to pivot the project in a more productive direction. | |||
| ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It should be noted that, during the summer, Toddst1 posted an completely unprovoked personal attack on my talk page. To this day, I have no idea why. I had no prior involvement with him, and he has refused to explain himself. He seems to think that being an admin gives him licence to do as he pleases, and that he is immune from redress. | |||
| :Hello ], we know each other well from working on the same articles as part of ]. My client for the project under discussion here is the "Earth System Governance Foundation" (not the project (] (which is an alliance), nor the concept ] itself). So when you say that I should "immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder", then who do you mean? Strictly speaking it would be the "Earth System Governance Foundation". They don't have a Misplaced Pages article about themselves, neither do they have a website. | |||
| So then Bbb23 involved himself, '''because Toddst1 asked him to'''. This request was made off-wiki, so we do not know just what was said, or what the relationship is between these two, that Toddst1 would want Bbb23 involved, or why he would want to be involved. But that aside, there is a clear bias on his part, as evidenced by his somewhat slanted comments to me on my talk page, as well as his quite slanted OP, for this ANI. Bbb23 posted this ANI, ''after'' I commented that I found this situation becoming "nauseatingly hypocritical". But, he claims he created this ANI because I changed a section heading on <u>my</u> talk page, from "Toddst1" to "Admin Abuse". While Bbb23 did create the section, I only changed the title to something I found more appropriate, and only after I commented within the thread of that section. I did not alter Bbb23's comments in any way. Though Bbb23 disagrees with the action, I still do not see how this constitutes "ongoing harassment". | |||
| :FWIW: If you look at the history of two articles that you mentioned: ] and ], then I think you can see that I actually made them a lot better, not worse (compared with their versions from about early July last year). I added better sources and more nuanced content, including criticism and debates. If there are still unsourced, overly promotional statements in there, then this needs to be addressed (probably best on the talk pages or with direct edits of course). | |||
| :FYI: The Earth System Governance Project is “a global research network that aims to advance knowledge at the interface between global environmental change and governance. The network connects and mobilizes scholars from the social sciences and humanities researching at local and global scales.” It is not an advocacy group. It is not my client nor employer. There is also no official/legal/formal connection between the ESG Foundation and the ESG Project. | |||
| :If a topic ban was imposed, would such a topic ban for me for ] apply only to the duration of this particular consultancy or for life? Also a topic ban from ]? Would I still be allowed to propose changes on the talk pages? And would the ban stop when my consultancy stops (likely in a few months), or be there for life? | |||
| :Just to clarify for those following this ANI: the bulk of my 60 000 edits were done in a volunteer capacity; and a certain proportion (it would be hard to estimate exactly what proportion) was done for different clients (they are mentioned on my profile page). Those clients are all mission-aligned and are not for profits or even corporations. I have no "agenda" that I am pushing. All I want to do is improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles in the area of climate change and sustainable development. A lot of my work is actually just about readability improvements. | |||
| :Also just to clarify: when I mentioned "personal attacks" in that post that you, Clayoquot, linked to, I wasn't referring to attacks ''in this thread'' but I meant AJL's aggressive/confrontational comments on my talk page, and also on the talk page of SRM. It felt like a personal attack when someone writes on my talk page "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down. I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client." ] (]) 17:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't ] or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are ], which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.{{pb}}Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact , which states that {{tq|he Earth System Governance Foundation also serves as legal representative of the Earth System Governance research community.}} This is hardly what I would call "no official/legal/formal connection". ] (] · ]) 18:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :yeah, thats clearly a COI vio. let's report to ], or something else. EMS, it does not matter you made an article better, or are unbiased... COI's destroy the appearance of neutrality. ] (]) 18:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::did report to ] ] (]) 18:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It does matter (which doesn't mean I agree that they ''do'' make the article better -- that's outside my expertise). Just a point of order: we ''do'' allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive. I understand there are some editors who will say things like "editing with a COI is not allowed", but that's flatly incorrect in policy terms. It's not in the spirit of a Wikipedian-in-Residence program, but if EMsmile claims to be a WiR it's not on their user page or in this thread, as far as I can tell (and being a WiR isn't usually an effective shield anyway -- it's more a signal that someone is knowledgeable and following best practices such as, yes, not editing about the institution that hires you). We're talking about a standard paid editor, not a WiR. If the changes were constructive and transparent, there would be no reason for action. Evidence of editing with a COI isn't relevant to a sanction except where it's not transparent or not constructive, and my understanding of this section is that multiple people take issue with the quality of EMsmile's edits (i.e. ''edits'' that fail NPOV, not merely an editor that has a COI; the relevance of highlighting a COI is that we rightly provide little-to-no leeway to COI editors to make content mistakes relevant to their COI). FWIW. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::] put this back into our court. ] (]) 13:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' indefinate block as seems excessive given her long history of useful edits. ] (]) 14:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: Topic ban for EMsmile === | |||
| So... '''what''' are we doing here? | |||
| <small>I added this heading just now to break up a section that was getting long ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC) </small> | |||
| :::<small> The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.</small>True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its <s>direct</s> affiliates, broadly construed. This ''obviously'' include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project. This is the narrowest scope I can think of that would prevent the kind of disruption we have recently seen from you. I propose this topic ban be indefinite but appealable after 12 months. As you probably know, there's a good chance that you can avoid getting sanctioned if you commit to a voluntary restriction. I do not think at this time that you need to be banned from ''citing'' the scholarly works of ESG-affiliated people, however I strongly recommend you be very judicious and selective about the extent to which you do this. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I realize that ANI's usually lead to a bigger picture be examined. To that end, Thibbs has drawn attention to some past talk page discussions that I have been involved in. This was made easy for them, because I used to archive some of these discussions on my talk page. Though I'm not aware of any policy forbidding it, Thibbs has indicated that they are quite disturbed by this. (I say "''used to''", because I have since removed them, but even that has seemed to upset them) It should be noted that of the 14 discussions that I had copied there, the first 6 are more than a year and a half old, and took place prior the block I had implemented on me, that has been prominently and repeatedly mentioned here. Of the 8 remaining, I don't see any of them as being so controversial, (at least on my part), that they would require sanctions to be placed on me. I would ask that people here do '''not''' accept Thibbs opinion of these discussions, but rather, read them for themselves if they feel they should play a part here. Further, I still don't see how that has anything to do with this so-called "ongoing harassment" on my part. | |||
| ::::Hi Clayoquot, I think your proposed topic ban is a good solution and way forward ("the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project."). I am happy to make a voluntary commitment to this restriction. I have no experience with such topic bans so I don't know the exact procedure. Do I put this on my profile page? Can you point me to an example where someone else has done this (maybe via my talk page)? | |||
| :::: | |||
| ::::By the way, the paragraph about the non-use agreement that is now (after some discussion) in the section on ] (second last paragraph) is pretty good in my opinion and does not need further changes at this stage (well, except the first sentence is a bit clunky, I already pointed that out on the talk page last week). | |||
| ::::] is part of the climate change topic complex and is thus, not surprisingly, a topic full of potential for debate and discussion (some people are strongly pushing for it, others are strongly warning about it), so I think further work is still needed and this article will evolve accordingly over time. Hopefully without any ANIs in the future. :-) | |||
| ::::I'll make sure I am more careful in future with respect to those ''grey areas'' while editing the ] article as mentioned above by ]. I could even commit that for the next few months, I don't make any edits to the ] article directly but always go through the talk page (taking up the offer that North8000 suggested above: "I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged"). | |||
| ::::Oh and should the ] where I explain how I manage any potential COIs that can arise from working for/with clients, need improvement and tightening? Happy to be given advice on this (maybe better on my talk page than here). ] (]) 22:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::For the topic ban, you can add it to ]. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about ]. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being {{tq|a pioneer in opposing SRM research}} is sourced... to ETC Group itself). ] (] · ]) 23:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::EMsmile, thank you for being flexible on this. Just to make sure you are aware, a topic ban means you may not make any edits related to the topic in question, and this includes edits to talk pages. There is a ]. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 23:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Oh, the talk pages as well? Fine by me for the talk pages of ESGP and its founder but not for the entirety of the SRM article, I am sorry. I think this would not be justified. It's also a bit impractical. With regards to Chaotic Enby's post above I could stress that there are also secondary sources for the non-use agreement, and that I could provide them on the talk page and then leave it up to others if they want to add them to the article or not. | |||
| ::::::For background (if this helps, but it should rather be on the talk page of the SRM article, not here): The solar geoengineering non-use agreement is an academic initiative that simply believes SRM is a dangerous technology that should not be further developed, much like nuclear technology in the past and that powerful interests are funding it. That's it. That is why the topic is contentious. ] (]) 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::As I described above, I believe your edits regarding NUA at ] violated ] quite egregiously. Do you disagree? | |||
| :::::::Posting sources on a talk page is one of the milder forms of advocacy but it is still advocacy. Other editors are capable of finding the sources they want on SRM very quickly, and their searches for those sources will probably be less biased than your searches. I do not think the benefit of you sharing sources outweighs the risk of you using the talk page for COI advocacy. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 03:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I respectfully disagree. I've used the talk page at SRM since middle of last year to reach consensus with other editors in a collaborative manner, like I always do. I ''tried to'' make my points in a concise manner, even if I sometimes failed (should make talk past posts shorter in future). Sometimes they might look like a "wall of text" because I copied a paragraph or even a whole section that is under discussion across. Of course there is always room for improvement but to be banned from writing on the talk page of SRM at all is in my opinion excessive. | |||
| ::::::::Please also note that the person who started this ANI originally said that I am doing "PR" for my client. This is not true. I can expand on this further but I think this is a content question, not one about procedures. Perhaps it's better to now let that his be handled in the COI noticeboard thread here?: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250119181200-Earth_System_Governance_Project. As was pointed out above by Rhododendrites: "we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive." | |||
| ::::::::I believe my edits for the ] article have been transparent and constructive. The article is in fairly good shape now and does not include any "PR" for a certain "brand" or alike. ] (]) 09:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}}Just to be clear, a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates would not stop you from editing the SRM talk page. It would only stop you from editing the SRM talk page ''on the topic of ESG and its affiliates''. And regarding your history on the SRM talk page, I'm sorry I think you just don't get it. The length of your posts there is a ''symptom'' of the attitude that you expressed in other ways. You took the position that you, a paid COI editor, get an equal say in the editorial decision-making process. Instead of offering information and then deferring to the judgement of unconflicted editors, you repeatedly asked for the article to be made more favorable to your client. And unless you are topic banned I see no reason to think you will not do it again. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'd like to know what other editors think of edits like at SRM and at ] (an article written almost entirely by EMsmile while being paid by ESG). Do the uninvolved people here see these as PR or not PR? ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 19:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| What I do see, is a bandwagon mentality of a handful of editors, '''all''' of whom I have had previous disagreements with, and ''some'' of whom have had questionable behavior themselves. | |||
| :IMO if it were not for the PE aspect they look like pretty routine factual edits and I wouldn't use the term PR (by it's common meaning) for them. With the declared PE aspect I'd call it where it would be better to discuss and let them be put in by somebody else if they agree. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I see Toddst1 has jumped in here with his "solution", all the while hoping the spotlight light remains off of him. That is not surprising, considering how abusive, disruptive, offensive and basically reprehensible his behavior has been. And if that weren't bad enough, this is compounded by the fact that he is an admin here. Now I am seeing just what apparently happens when you not only question an admin's conduct here, but an admin who is desperately trying to cover it up. | |||
| :<small>(involved, as I've had disagreements with EMSmile before)</small>. To me, some of this doesn't quite look routine. For instance, using Biermann's website to say he's graduated with distinction (we rarely mention this), or his own website to state he's often used by the press, and namedropping in a highly-viewed article. It's not egregious, but it would raise eyebrows even without the PE aspect. ] (]) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi Femke, I've modified the ] article accordingly now (I agree with you; this needed improvement - my bad). And just to explain: I had mentioned Frank Biermann in the SRM article because he played an important role in developing the non-use agreement in the first place, and not because I wanted to "name drop" him (137 pageviews per day for the SRM article in the last year is not exactly "a highly-viewed article"). But I do understand that this could be "eyebrow raising" in the overall context of this COI discussion. | |||
| ::I would be happy to improve the Frank Biermann article further if there are still problematic aspects (or "PR"?) that I have overlooked so far. However, I think it's probably better if I give myself a voluntary restriction for this article and also for the ] article, as well as the non-use agreement component of the ] article. I have just now written about this voluntary restriction on my profile page ]. I feel bad for the page watchers and admins that this ANI has gone on for such a long time now. Maybe we could draw it to a close now with this conclusion and voluntary topic ban? (if needed this could be fine-tuned through my talk page rather than through this ANI thread?) ] (]) 23:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::We are making some progress. Your voluntary restriction, as currently worded, is quite far off from a ] or even a mainspace topic ban. A topic ban on the ESGF would stop you from, for example, adding a mention of Biermann or the ESGP to articles like ]. You have written about your client in multiple articles that are not in your voluntary restriction. | |||
| :::At the very least - whether or not you have a voluntary restriction - you need to follow the COI guideline. Your comment above suggests that you don't recognize that you should have used a ] to add Biermann's name to the SRM article. Are you willing to commit to following the entirety of the COI guideline, including the use of edit requests for any non-trivial edits that involve your clients? ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 02:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support'''. I find the voluntary restriction too little too late. I don't think it should be narrowly construed or time-constrained, as some COI remains after a paid position. Some of EMS' additions are egregiously non-neutral, such as adding the following to an infobox "focus=Stimulate a vibrant, pluralistic, and relevant research community for ]" . You still claim on your user page that there is no organisational connection between the ESG Foundation and Project, despite stating the opposite, as pointed out 3 days ago. Working with a COI requires community trust, which I don't think exist anymore. I do wonder if this topic ban should be '''extended to future employers''' too? I can't find it back, but we have had discussions 3/4 years back already about more subtle COI editing on your part, where you promoted papers from individual scientists unduly, in exchange for them volunteering time to improve Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 08:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' per Femke. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' and will withdraw my proposal above. ] (]) 13:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose involuntary, as long as the details on the voluntary get confirmed''' <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 13:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Femke. also this discussion has gone too long and is nearly 0.5 ]s long. We should end it somehow, and some kinda editting restriction is warranted at this point. ] (]) 17:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Femke, while a block is far too much, a topic ban (with or without edit requests) seems more reasonable. ] (] · ]) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support as proposer''' and I think extending it to future employers/clients makes sense. Once someone has started work on a project, it can be difficult or impossible to change the client's expectations. It is emotionally hard for the community to contemplate sanctions that affect an individual's current employment, so preventing that kind of situation is best for everyone. EMsmile does relatively well when working for clients who do not expect COI editing. I hope the guidance she is getting here will encourage her to seek those types of projects. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 21:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Voluntary restrictions=== | |||
| Then there is Rklawton, now pushing to have me kicked off the project. We had a disagreement over the name of an article. I don't see where anything I said during that debate was violative of any policy. While to this day, I maintain that the name is inappropriate, once consensus was reached to maintain it, I left it alone and moved on. Apparently he hasn't. There is a similar situation with Dainomite, over a stub that I felt should be deleted. He disagreed, but it seems that he upsets quite easily when anyone challenges him. That's all I did, was challenge the need and veracity of that stub. Again, I did not violate any policies. We need to challenge items like this, to maintain the quality of this encyclopaedia. While I still maintain that both the article name, and the stub, mentioned here only serve to lower the quality of this project, I have since moved on from both. These two editors obviously have not, and their positions here are questionable. | |||
| {{Ping|EMsmile}} Just clarifying | |||
| *When the Earth System Governance Project and Frank Biermann "zero editing" restrictions expire a year from now, of course if you were under any relevant PE arrangement all of the rules related to that would be in force. | |||
| *Did you say that you were under a relevant PE arrangement on the Solar radiation modification article? If not, please ignore the rest of this. If so, while still under it (until you explicitly say it is over), for the areas not covered by your "zero edit" self-restriction, would you agree to operate in a "doubly safe" mode in the other areas of the article? Until then, ask someone else to put in any edits that are not clearly merely-gnome edits? | |||
| Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 13:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Eats, Shoots and Leaves (a.k.a. Bwilkins), contributions here are the worst form of trolling. Though he now denies it, he knows full well that he was heavily involved in my last block, as it was my responses to his constant inflammatory baiting that (at least partially) lead to me being accused of uncivil behavior. These were posts he made on my talk page, even after several requests by me for him to stay away. Actions which here are now considered "ongoing harassment". Now, here he is again, only now trying to bait and provoke under a different identity. A sock one can only guess why he feels he needs to hide behind. Once I realized who he was, I again asked him to stay away from me. But, here he is again, trying to fan the flames - trying to 'stir up the mob', as it were. He is another admin who feels he can do whatever he pleases and the rules do not apply to him. He seems to take joy in treating adminship as authority to condescend to people, to stir up strife and then sit on high, deciding who stays, and who goes. His comments speak for themselves as well. I have absolutely no interest in interacting with ESAL/BW, and therefore... I won't. | |||
| == Basile Morin, Arionstar and FPC == | |||
| While I don't want to sound like one of the more paranoid users here, who contend there is some kind of a cabal conspiracy going on, there has been off-wiki communication between editors with some degree of relations between them. There is a small but ardent bunch of involved, impartial editors going on and on about what a scourge I am. Now that they have had there say, I would ask that they step back, and allow some, if any, impartial editors to comment. For my part, I will say that no further sanctions, (other than the same "slap on the wrist" that Toddst1 has apparently received), is warranted. A block is not necessary. I am not vandalizing articles, I am not disrupting the project and, I am certainly not continually "harassing an admin". - ''''']''''' 21:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = Everyone has cooled down and agreed to stop with the ]. ] (]/]) 16:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| I was going to let this go as there has been no recent (within the past two days) hounding, until a comment by {{user|Basile Morin}} led me straight here. | |||
| :'''Comment''' As one of the main opponenets of TWC in the recent aircraft carrier debacle, I have refrained from commenting here so far. However, I feel obliged to point out that TWC's post here is typical of his approach to conflict. When someone says something that he does not agree with or things do not appear to be going his way, he often posts a massive epistle that simply goes on and on, or indeed multiple such posts. He does this repeatedly within the discussion and that is of itself disruptive to the project. I am not an admin, but I urge the admins here to consider the effect of posts like this have on discussions and whether TWC needs to be sanctioned. I have no doubt that TWC acts in good faith but his tactics to achieve his desired result and willingness to bully people into his way of doing things by sheer weight of words if nothing else is not, IMO, in the best interests of the project. Again IMO, on balance the amount of time wasted on talk pages with TWC far outweighs any positive contribution he may make to the encyclopaedia and I think consideration needs to be given to whether we would all be better off without the angst. - ] ] 02:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: Nick, is it typical that he throws in red-herrings to try to confuse, alienate and denigrate as he does above? For example, he seems to consider me enemy number one - and in order to try to poison my input (he's actually calling this account a "sock" when the world knows it's not (see ] and ]). However, why let the truth get in the way of a good story? :-) Is this common as well? <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 13:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Since at least January 3, I have seen a general pattern of ] on the ] board involving accusations that {{user|ArionStar}} has engaged in sockpuppetry on Wikimedia Commons, something I find only of minimal relevance with FPCs. I have counted <i>at least</i> three times where a user ({{user|Charlesjsharp}}) has copy-and-pasted the following message on a nomination ArionStar has started: | |||
| == ] and long term disruption of ] == | |||
| * '''Comment''' I notify other voters that the nominator has been banned on Commons and has been insulting on this page towards another user. (at ], ] and ]) | |||
| Not only is this failing to ], it's also completely irrelevant to a process involving images. It's sort of like telling people to oppose an FAC because they haven't given good reviews. I would have left this here, until another user (Basile Morin), engaged in Wikihounding, decided to directly attack me and ArionStar instead of constructively responding to my concerns. What really damns me is , in full. I was struck with the flu, so was unable to respond, but I think I'll just bring it directly here, seeing how this isn't the first time this has happened: | |||
| {{quote|text=There is no "target" as you imagine, and each of us would like to be able to calmly evaluate new quality nominations as we are supposed to see in this section. Rather than being asphyxiated by an avalanche of weak candidates, all precipitated by the uncontrolled frenzy of a hyper-impulsive participant. Furthermore, no user is obliged to come and provoke conflicts via illegitimate puppets, and even less so if you don't want us to be interested in you. You are , EF5, according to your own words. Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months (], ], ]...), and you also use . Some of your ] are orphans and you're probably not the "author" of the . Above, you wrongly mention a "retaliatory opposing" when if that had been Charles' intention, he could have voted "oppose per JayCubby" to bring down this nomination even faster. But ] is usually an excellent reviewer, also a photographer and nominator, regular on ] and ], with ] and 303 on Misplaced Pages. I think the idea he expresses is mainly a serious fed-up feeling, to see, once again, a deluge of nominations coming from the same overexcited account. The fact is that ArionStar is here only because he was banned from Commons, unfortunately that is the sad reality. However, the goal is not to repeat here the same mistakes as those made there. Note also that, just after , ArionStar turns a deaf ear and , as if he were absolutely seeking his sanction. Obtuse insistence is bound to annoy even the calmest and most patient people. It is obvious that if you want to progress and maintain good relationships with others, you must first be able to become aware of your mistakes, and the reasons for your failures. There is no hunt against ArionStar, but no "special indulgence" either. In my opinion, Charles has mainly tried a kind of moderately subtle "]" aimed at the participant himself, who would do better to listen once and for all to the good advice, rather than ignoring it and making fun of others. This , well before he was banned. Kind regards -- Basile Morin}} | |||
| I mean, what kind of comment is this? Whatever it is, it needs to stop. "Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months" is just cherry-picking things I've done, with no actual regard to relevance. I really don't think a "talk" is going to do much here (which I've already tried), so I'm bringing it here.<span id="EF5:1737221536794:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> — ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
| Current discussions of relevance: | |||
| :If Charles and Basile don't commit to cutting it out, I think one way IBANs are definitely in order here. ] (]/]) 18:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :(ec) ], this is a confusing report to try to sort out although Voorts seems to be able to follow things here. Are you the only commenter here or is some of this content from another editor who didn't leave their signature? If this entire complaint is all from you can you identify, in one sentence, which editor you are complaining about (since several are mentioned here), whether or not you have notified them of this report and what exactly your "charge" is against them? Again, give the heart of your complaint in ONE sentence although you may include diffs. Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, I am the only filer. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@]: As I understand the report, and from looking at the diffs, Charles and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that Arion is socking/engaging in harassment/vandalism at Commons. Basile and Charles have both been around for a long time and should know better. ] (]/]) 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you, ], for the summation. I am completely ignorant of what is going on at the Commons. It's enough for me to keep up with what's happening on this Wikimedia project of which I only barely succeed at, much less know who is socking or who is blocked on other projects. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::''"and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that"'' => No, we did not vote here. -- ] (]) 20:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The intent was clearly to cast aspersions on the entire nomination, even if you didn't use a bolded oppose. ] (]/]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Arionstar was indeed indeffed on Commons and has socked there, creating some bad blood among some FPC regulars. For better or worse, however, we regard the projects as independent. In fact, demonstrating constructive behavior on a different project is often a good strategy to appeal a block. As Arionstar continued socking at Commons, I don't think that's the goal, but the point stands that anyone who wishes to see Arionstar sanctioned here would need to open a thread on this board with diffs showing bad behavior ''here'' (or, at minimum, bad behavior elsewhere that's ''directly'' connected to conflicts here, such as harassing a user on Commons because of a dispute here). Absent consensus otherwise, Arionstar is AFAIK in good standing on enwp. | |||
| :Doesn't mean anyone's obliged to support his nominations, of course, and I don't blame the Commons regulars from not doing so. The only problem would be an opposition here solely due to behavior there, which (as much as I'm critical of enwp's FPC criteria) is probably not a valid reason for opposition. That said, I don't see that anyone has done that? At ], Charles posted a comment and did not vote. Basile opposed, but provided clear reasons why, which didn't center on behavioral issues. Just not sure what there is to do here. Maybe this bit of advice will suffice: (a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 18:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is ] against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm learning from my mistakes and ]. The FP guidelines here are different but I'm understanding them day after day. ] (]) 18:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ArionStar's disruptions === | |||
| ] | |||
| ] | |||
| ] | |||
| (First, to take into account at the origin of this report by EF5, an annoyance ''perhaps'' caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination: ].) | |||
| Like many users I am tired of being dragged into a ridiculous argument I simply do not care about. However, ]'s obsession with convincing[REDACTED] to remove any preference for imperial measurements on UK articles is now becoming utterly disruptive. It has been forum shopped in numerous places and the latest RFC is simply gaming the system. | |||
| Now, concerning ArionStar: | |||
| I urge that a community sanction be considered banning ] from any and all discussions related to ]. I cannot perceive of any productive discussion, whilst he is present. ] <small>]</small> 15:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|ArionStar}} | |||
| See: | |||
| #] | |||
| #] (now ]) | |||
| #] (clear attack against me) | |||
| My talk page also was "attacked" with (, , , , ). | |||
| ::Whatever shortcomings WCM may have made in this notice Martinvl, nothing excuses the incivility you showed in the UK discussion along with your ] attitude at it. I don't think anyone in the UK article dispute article can stand up for your actions no-one backed you up as far as I could tell and at least 3 editors including me and WCM backed calls or where thinking of reporting you for your disruptive comments, accusations, and failure to even acknowledge your fault and apologise for it, all of which equate to bad faith and antagonistic behaviour. Even with everyone notified, nothing excuses your behaviour at that talk page never mind what appears to be an never-ending campaign against Imperial measurements on this site. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Now that Martin has asked WCM to notify a wider group of editors, then sadly I must express my view that WCM is correct to describe Martin's contributions as disruptive. As time has gone by Martin's attitude and actions have got closer and closer to the stubbornness of his old adversary DeFacto, with an equally destructive effect on the community, and unfortunately he has refused to accept that consensus does not necessarily mean unanimity, and he has continued to act as if he has a veto on any agreement. I agree with WCM that it now appears that nothing less than a topic ban will suffice, and I fear that it needs to be wider than merely ], because I am convinced that he would continue his pro-metrication campaign elsewhere, such as his recent attempt to move the debate to ] now that he has seen that he won't convince people at ]. - ] (]) 17:32, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I am (very) involved here, having borne the brunt of this campaign for far longer than most, so I won't say much unless others ask me to. But I will add my support to the comments by David Biddulph and others and call for such a topic ban to be enacted. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 17:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *I am heavily involved in this matter at this point, though I never intended to be. I've tried to negotiate the tense line between the two camps of editors on this issue. I've tried to be accommodating to Martin and others. Furthermore, it was I who suggested that a discussion at UKGEO be held. However, despite all of my good faith efforts I am now convinced that Martin's behavior is both repetitive and out-of-line. He will stop at nothing to continue his campaign, and if one gives him even a sliver of leeway, as I did, he will take it as a go-ahead to open a biased and heavily skewed RfC to implement metric units on a broad basis. He has even gone so far as to quote me in attempt to justify his own position, skewing what he's known I've said. It is quite clear that he cannot move beyond his own position, and can't think outside of it. Overall, I endorse the comments that are above me. ] — ] 18:34, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| As a result of ] making , the debate in question on ] spilled over onto ]. Two parrallel debates ranged, one on each page - hardly conducive to getting a consensus. Editors on both pages were involved in the debate, but I notice that Wee Curry Monster has only circulated those editors who contributed to the debate on the ] page, not those who contributed on the ] page. I look forward to him contacting everybody who was involved in the debate on both pages. ] (]) 22:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *I do not want to comment on personalities. However, I must state that the atmosphere on MOSNUM when it comes to discussing units of measure is incredibly polarised. It is also fair to state that while I prefer metric measures, I acknowledge the split use of both metric and imperial measures in the UK. I can't say I am aware of anything that Martin has written that I find objectionable. I can see nothing objectionable in this or this or this or this or this . That includes edits that Martin has made in the last 50 edits on MOSNUM talk. Going back further I could see nothing objectionable in Martin's edit here or here or here . In the last 500 edits on MOSNUM talk, Martin made 36. This is more than some but less than others so I can't see that this is excessive. (Another contributor made 99 of the last 500 edits!) There are complaints, but no diffs to back them up. As Martin appears to put his point of view without rancour, I can't understand how this complaint can be sustained. ] (]) 02:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've participated in this debate, why didn't Wee Curry Monster notify me? Michael's figures just above don't seem to justify a ban, or at least not just banning one contributor. What happens if we ban him? Does the discussion go away? ] (]) 09:41, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ]. These , with left to the user (), | |||
| I fear that this case may have to go to ArbCom eventually, as it has been going on for years. --''']]]''' 09:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| before being by ArionStar as if my talk page was a battleground. | |||
| '''More worrying''', A few days ago '''the same person used sockpuppets''' to pollute my account on Commons: | |||
| I have now checked Martin's contribution to . Martin made a proposal, other editors opposed it and he clarified what he intended. Once again, one person disagreed and others made comments about the measurement situation in the UK. At no time did Martin write anything objectionable there. I think it is perfectly in order for an editor to make a proposal. On the basis on what is written there the complaint cannot be sustained. ] (]) 10:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| #] | |||
| #]. | |||
| Exhausting. There have been a lot of , on Commons. Best regards -- ] (]) 19:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Regarding me being “mad about my failed nom”, that is casting serious ]. I engaged because I saw what looked like uncivil behavior, '''not''' because one of my nominations failed. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In the third place there was a nasty spat between editors that followed an edit or edits that Martin opposed. Without going into details or trying to take sides, there did seem to be a genuine misunderstanding here and this led to several editors getting quite annoyed with Martin. As a result, everyone became hypersensitive to perceived slights. I think it must be stated that Martin appeared to be in a minority of one in his request that the article be returned to what it was before. I think he genuinely believed that the ''status quo ante'' should have been restored. However, this was not what happened, and now that several editors have given their opinions, there appears to be no chance for the article to be changed back. It is hard to take when people who had not previously edited an article come along and change it, but in this case they had the numbers and also MOSNUM on their side. | |||
| ::Thanks for your ''subjective'' opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- ] (]) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@]: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. ] (]/]) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::. Regards -- ] (]) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's ] which is not on. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you for your suggestion. Last time , it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::] about ] doesn't help your case when you are ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thank you very much for your links. I will try to read these two "essays" in peace and quiet, as well as this "information page". I already wrote a below. All the best -- ] (]) 05:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at ]. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I know that people have become upset, but I think there was more than one misunderstanding. I do not believe that Martin set out to offend people. This can be demonstrated by his comments elsewhere. ] (]) 10:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Attacks, attacks, he attacked"… I'll keep my silence because I try… (It's sad to see when someone "loses the line" after a "ceasefire request") | |||
| :::P.S.: " annoyance ''perhaps'' caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination"… ''kkkkkkk'' (laughs in Brazilian Portuguese). ] (]) 23:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::], I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{Agree}} Thanks. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''On reflection''' | |||
| :No offence Michael Glass but "to be a genuine misunderstanding here and this led to several editors getting quite annoyed with Martin" seems quite skewed to overlook Martinvl's behaviour at the UK article discussion where they make at least two false accusations of one editor being a hypocrite and then that I suppossedly implied it, as well as stating that I had no right to leave a response and that it was "unsolicited". Hardly a genuine misunderstanding. | |||
| Thank you. | |||
| *Martinvl stated that if ] is suggesting a certain situation then they must be a hypocrite . | |||
| I would like to apologize to user ] if I may have made one or more errors of judgment regarding them. | |||
| *In that same edit Martinvl starts trying to be a smart-alack towards me making idiotic assumptions and adopting a quite condescending tone. I retorted in kind but without being condescending. , though a revision later I added to my lip back, after which I retracted my acknowledgement that Martinvl was correct and added a bit more lip . I then left a personal message on ] talk page stating that I would desist from responding like a smart-ass if they did so in kind. As a sign of good faith I then striked my smartass retorts except the one in regards to being English . It should be noted Martinvl did not respond to this. | |||
| I do not know this user very well, and having noticed that they often change their name, use multiple accounts, and , I may have indeed become too defensive. Since they are apparently very young ], I may have made some wrong assumptions of behavior. It may also be the fatigue generated by ]. So all the better if this person (EF5) is reliable and well-intentioned. I don't blame them for anything, and I'm rather looking forward to getting back to my usual activities. | |||
| * DDStretch requests Martinvl retract their hypocrite allegation as they see it as a personal attack. Martinvl would only apologise for calling DDStretch the wrong name. Despite that things seem to calm down and responses are mostly on topic. | |||
| *Despite the fact Martinvl is blatantly ignoring ] and arguing that the article is reverted to his preferred version per ] despite the fact it violates ] until a consensus is reached (despite the fact he was the only editor who backed his stance), they decide to restore their preferred version with this as their reasoning. This is the instance where they blatantly distort ]'s comment (which RGloucester) responds to here ). In response ] responds on this distortion of ]'s comment and Martinvl's ignoring of what a consensus is. Martinvl keeps arguing that ] should apply as it would restore the article to their preferred version which violates ]. ] then comments in response to the "no consensus" argument of Martinvl's disagreeing with them , and then comments on Martinvl's behaviour . | |||
| *] points out that Martinvl has still not retracted or apologized for his hypocrite comment. In response Martinvl tries to defend himself by stating "'' I was accusing ] of implying that you were a hypocrite by twisting what you had said. Please re-read the comments and you will see that my comment was directed at Mabuska, not you''" - though a reread of his comment clearly shows it was directed at Ddstretch and nowhere did he say he was implying me. I responded angrily and respost the comments that involve me, DDStretch and Martinvl . I also ask that they withdraw their false accusation against me, and getting quite annoyed . I followed up with a suggestion for Martinvl to just apologise and drop the issue and then we can go our own way. | |||
| *Ddstretch responds to Martinvl and then Martinvl responds where they state '''''You should have let DDStretch answer for himself and not butted in'''. If you strike the unsolicited pre-emptive answer that you made on behalf of DDStretch, I will strike out my response to you and DDStretch can then explain himself as originally requested.''. Now I don't know about you but I take "not butted in" as a personal attack, also add in they say that my comment is '''unsolicited'''. | |||
| *Ddstretch responds to Martinvl about their failure to apologise and withdraw , whilst stating there is nothing wrong with me "butting in". Martinvl then tries to argue on making a false accusation that WCM was bringing an edit-war to the article (despite the fact WCM only made '''one edit'''), to which WCM commented . From this point 4 editors (including myself) make comments about some form of action against Martinvl possibly being neccessary: , , , and . | |||
| :Having said that in my last comment, I notice WCM suggested an RFC/U not an AN/I. | |||
| :Since then Martinvl took it upon himself keep being uncivil by moving ]'s comment to an entirely different section of the related discussion , which ] raised at Martinvl's ]. | |||
| :In regards to the actual UK article itself, I only became involved in the discussion as I saw that Martinvl reverted an edit by WCM, and after a brief foray into the Falkland Islands articles a while back, and recently backing the continuation of WCM's topic-ban in regards to those islands, I recognized Martinvl as being active with WCM in the past and believed that Martinvl may have been hounding WCM. Had another editor made the edit originally, it is quite possible that Martinvl wouldn't have noticed or got involved. | |||
| :This editor deserves some form of censure for their behaviour and failure to apologise and withdraw their accusations whilst trying to wriggle away from it. They have instilled nothing but bad faith and distrust for me and no doubt others in regards to this editor. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I agree with and thank him for his effort to calm things down: | |||
| I have witnessed Martinvl's conduct in this area myself, briefly (). I have never ''ever'' seen an argument about the merits of metric versus imperial measurements that did not end in high drama, warfare and bloodshed. I don't think that this needs to go to ArbCom ''just yet'', but a topic ban might suffice. With that in mind, I would like to propose that '''Martinvl is topic-banned from all edits and discussions related to units of measurement, broadly construed'''. Who agrees? ] ] ] 14:09, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{xt|"(a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp."}} | |||
| I understand that my approach was not the most tactful, sorry. I can nevertheless prove that the approach was 100% healthy and intended to help Misplaced Pages. | |||
| I have absolutely no problem with ArionStar contributing constructively to the development of the encyclopedia (if that is really his intention). However, I would also like to draw attention to the fact that from another user is in my humble opinion far from being as the other imagines. This is perhaps a most important point. | |||
| :I don't. This ANI discussion is about prolonged debates over which units of measurement should be used in Misplaced Pages articles. WCM's proposal is to restrict those debates. Ritchie333's proposal goes far beyond WCM's and would deprive us of Martinvl's contributions to articles that are specifically about units of measurement. ] (]) 15:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The last thing I claim is the need for ArionStar to immediately and permanently stop using unproductive puppets. Neither elsewhere nor here. See ] '''"Good hand" and "bad hand" accounts'''. | |||
| I noticed that after self-imposing a "wikibreak" they reverted another user to my own talk page, thus adding to the annoying noise. I would therefore be grateful if ArionStar would never again try to get in touch through this channel. I need peace and concentration. | |||
| I can only speak to behaviour at ], which is the subject of this complaint. | |||
| This is above all a content dispute. It started when an IP editor (with no apparent or suspected connection with anyone else) raised the issue of why imperial units were still used. Several editors later raised concerns that the current text of the guideline might be too broad or too unclear in its recommendation of imperial units as primary units in certain UK-related contexts (such as non-road distances and weights of sportspeople) and adduced valid arguments to support their positions; it is the behaviour in dealing with this content dispute at ] that is the subject of this complaint. | |||
| Based on the discussion at ], I don't think I would lay failure to engage in a constructive, evidence-based discussion of the issue at Martinvl's door. I do not think raising an RfC should be regarded as forum shopping. An RfC is a normal part of dispute resolution, and there was a specific recommendation to clarify this issue (and possibly some others) in the relevant projects, because some editors felt that they would be more competetent to clarify actual usage. The wording of the RfC could, perhaps, have been more neutral, but I see nothing egregiously objectionable that would warrant sanctions. I think it might be appropriate to post a message at ] encouraging all editors to assume good faith, refrain from questioning others' motives, engage in constructive discussion, and use the usual methods (e.g. straw polls, RfCs) to clarify the different opinions and move the discussion forward in a constructive and efficient manner. —] (]) 14:50, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *While I respect both Boson and Michael Glass, I do not agree with their statements here. Martin has taken advantage of good faith, even if his tone is not one of "rancor". In multiple attempts to forge a compromise, I've tried to reach out to Martin. Each time, he's taken my words and skewed them. For example, with regard to the RfC. I suggest that a discussion be had at UKGEO, whereby Martin should see what editors there thought. Then, I thought it should be brought back to MOSNUM and discussed. Of course, there is nothing technically wrong with Martin's opening of the RfC, however, he did so on the basis of my comments, and essentially used them as justification for RfC to introduce solely metric units for geographic uses, which has been heavily opposed. The fact that Martin either cannot or refuses to understand what others are saying in attempts to compromise makes discussing with Martin almost impossible. Mabuska quoted an instance where Martin selectively took words I had said, himself having participated in the debate, and used them to justify edit warring at ]. He intentionally skewed my words, despite knowing that my opinion was not expressed by them. Sure, his tone is not one of "rancor", however an editor that takes advantage of good faith to push his own POV, that does not try to compromise and that does not listen to what others are saying for the sake of pushing his own POV is a severe detriment to the discussion, and makes it almost impossible to make progress. It is this disruption that I believe is being brought up here, not his "technical" wrongs. ] — ] 15:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Finally, I am happy, personally, to make an effort of discretion. I have accepted the criticisms that have been addressed to me, and sincerely consider them constructive. Thank you to each and every one of you. I wish you all fruitful research and rich contributions on Misplaced Pages. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Whilst I have nothing against Martinvl creating sub-sections for admins and the result of this discussion, personally I find it quite condescending for Martinvl to dictate what they are for when it is obvious, almost as if none of us have a clue. | |||
| :In addition, I'll ignore any report about me coming from you here on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 04:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Regardless of that, any admin looking at this discussion will see that not once does Martinvl make mention of or try to defend his behaviour, instead focusing on trying to wriggle out of this AN/I by having it "thrown out" on technicalities in regards to WCM's posting of this AN/I. Yes Martinvl says they will mount a defence if this case isn't thrown out, but they shouldn't have to stall like this is they are as vindicated as they seem to believe they are. Martinvl has questions to answer in regards to their behaviour, especially at the UK article, and they are purposely avoiding them focusing on trying to get this "thrown out". Pure and simple gaming of the system. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| :''"To date he does not appear to have taken any notice of my request."'' - pretty much like yourself in regards to Ddstretch and my requests for an apology from you? ] <sup>]</sup> 20:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza == | |||
| I'd like to draw attention to , in which Martin edit wars to close an RFC that he opened, with a closing summary that I believe does not reflect the consensus there. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 20:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *{{articlelinks|Aubrey Plaza}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Religião, Política e Futebol}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}} | |||
| {{u|Religião, Política e Futebol}} and {{u|ZanderAlbatraz1145}} have both been edit warring at ] over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration. | |||
| *This is getting even more absurd as it goes on. With what essentially amounts to bad faith behavior with the closing of the UKGEO RfC, with the attempt to sidestep the issue and focus on technicalities, with bizarre division of this thread into subsections…it demonstrates that the message just is not getting through. I really wish I wasn't a part of any of this nonsense. There is nothing good to be had out of any of it, and it only continues to get worse. I wish an admin would step in. If not to explain to Martin the issue, to at least close the discussion at MOSNUM, and prevent it from spiraling out of control. ] — ] 20:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::FWIW I've asked Martin on his talk to reconsider the move, and intend to take it to review per ] if he does not. If I do, I will (if I remember) mention that I brought it up here but that it got lost in a large piece of text. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 06:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think it should be made clear that there is no problem with ending the RfC ''per se''. The problem is with the summary explaining the reason. The RfC should be ended with the explanation "Withdrawn by poster". As ] explains:<blockquote>"There are several ways that RfCs end: the question may be withdrawn by the poster (e.g., if the community's response became obvious very quickly), the RfC participants can agree to end it, it can be formally closed by any uninvolved editor, or it may be moved to another dispute resolution forum, such as mediation. Most RfCs do not benefit from formal closure."</blockquote> | |||
| :::--] (]) 11:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm not sure of the value of ANI pile-ons, and the broader situation may be better suited to a User RFC, but (having been asked to comment here) I'd happily put on record my view that Martin's behaviour at the UK article was, basically, disruptive and a waste of WP space and editor time, including his own. He edit-warred to excise reference to miles in clear violation of consensus on that page, real-world usage in the UK and the MOS and sparked off a huge talk page thread. Most rational people working in a collaborative environment, when every single other person disagrees with them, especially over something so trivial, will drop their crusade. Some, of course won't – and will even go so far as to insist their personal alternative view must prevail, because their unilateral opposition to the more obviously correct option means that there is supposedly "no consensus" for the latter. Implicitly accusing another editor of being a "hypocrite" didn't help either (nor did his rather transparent attempts to rationalise that attack and, indeed, bizarrely shift the blame for it to yet another editor). That said, polite POV-pushing, activist agendas and time-wasting sophistry are all common enough on WP, even if arguably more pernicious than some types of more immediately obvious disruptive behavior. <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 21:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::It looks to me as if Martinvl's basic ] is well-evidenced in the section below this ], in which he tries to ] the section by intimidation: "This section is for the use of Martinvl. If anybody else posts here, I will delete their posts." Such an attitude is hardly conducive to collegial and collaborative co-operation. I suggest to Martinvl that he should do some deep-thinking about his relationship to the Misplaced Pages community, and commit himself to some radical attitude adjustment before he is topic banned or indeffed. ] (]) 04:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. ] (]) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Martinvl is not a team player. He is unwilling or unable to accept or even consider any views on articles related to measurement systems which conflict with his hard line. He disrespects editors with contradictory views, dismissing their edits and contributions with short shrift. He often gets involved in protracted arguments, due to his inability to compromise or accept fault, and has a list of warnings and admonishments as long your arm on ]. He has a superiority complex, typified by his actions at ]; with first , pushing 3 of his own articles into inappropriate and unduly prominent positions in a widely used template, then warring ,, each time his attempts at promoting his own articles was thwarted. Attempts to get him to discuss his changes are difficult and his arguments are arrogant and as if he has a veto on article and template contents. He has no qualms about gaming, lawyering. He is bad at providing justifying logic for his pushes, probably because there is none - other than his desire to see his opinions and his articles prevail. All in all an arrogant and difficult editor to coexist with. His inability to accept anything other than the metric system dogma that he seems to worship makes him unsuitable to edit measurement system related articles in an environment that relies on consensus, coexistence and good faith. ] (]) 19:47, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. ] (]) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. ] (]) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at ], not here. ] (]) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Sundayclose}} Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says, {{tq|This complaint is not about the content directly}}. We are not discussing the content you're disputing, but it would be great if you did try to gain some consensus at the article talkpage. ] (]) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Though I honestly thought I'd waited too long to take further steps to protect a highly-viewed article, fair enough. PP has helped over the weekend: while IMO the history is easy enough to follow in terms of seeing what would have been needed for immediate preventative/protective measures, yes it is a bit more complicated. Full post to follow. ] (]) 12:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *There have been numerous edits to the ] article since 4 January, when it was announced her husband had died, later declared a suicide. Most of the edits revolve around adding this information and how to describe her husband in the rest of the article. Most seem to be well-intentioned, don't all meet best practice for BLP editing, but generally can be resolved with corrective edits. | |||
| *Separately, since 29 December, some users have been attempting to add a lot of '''information about the BLP subject's ethnic background and non-notable extended family'''. | |||
| **The first edit to add this information was on 29 December by IP {{u|94.63.205.236}}. This was bot-reverted for the bad source. The same IP reinstated the edit moments later. Diffs: | |||
| **{{ping|Sundayclose}} Then reverted the edit later that day, again with sourcing concerns. Diff: Sundayclose also warned the IP about BLP, and the IP went dormant. | |||
| **During all the editing on 4 January, another IP, {{u|74.12.250.57}}, changed some of this info (describing Ashkenazi Jewish as Native American) for probably malicious reasons: - while another, {{u|2600:1000:b107:a865:e028:5f95:de45:c803}}, removed some of the ethnic background info with a strange edit reason ("Updated"): | |||
| **The article was then confirmed-protected for two days. | |||
| **On 10 January, {{ping|Religião, Política e Futebol}} made two edits (that for content purposes we will consider as one) to reinstate, and further expand upon, the information on family and ethnic background. Edits: | |||
| **Another IP, {{u|2a00:23c6:ed85:7d01:3d25:a335:96f5:4b40}}, undid the edits on 10 January, again with sourcing and BLP concerns. Diff: | |||
| **On 14 January, Religião reinstates their version without explanation. Diff: | |||
| **On 15 January, I (Kingsif), undid this with the same source/BLP concerns. I also mention more specifically what could be BLP issues, and recommend using the talkpage to discuss the edit. Diff: | |||
| **Also on 15 January, Religião adds the information back. In their edit reason, they seem to acknowledge the BLP specifics I mentioned but then claim that their content is not an issue. They also say that they don't need to discuss. Diff: | |||
| **On 16 January, I (Kingsif), again remove the information. I address the content and sourcing concerns more forcefully, and the need for discussion. I warn Religião that their behaviour in the circumstances constitutes edit warring. Diff: | |||
| **Also on 16 January, Religião once again added back the content. Their edit reason asked why they can't add personal information on non-notable people: a lack of knowledge of BIO policy, but unwillingness to do anything about that instead of edit-war. Diff: | |||
| **I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection. | |||
| *In regards to '''the mention of Baena's suicide''', this was first added shortly after it was first reported on 4 January. | |||
| **{{ping|DiaMali}} did much of the immediate updating, including adding and removing this before it was confirmed. Diff: | |||
| **Over the next two days, the mention was removed and reinstated by various other users based on industry sources/lack of confirmation. E.g.: , , | |||
| **The edit-warring really began on 6 January, when {{ping|Ibeaa}} removed the mention. At this point, the suicide had been confirmed, and Ibeaa did not provide a reason. Possibly worth noting is that Ibeaa's edit was made the exact minute the article's protection was removed. Diff: | |||
| **On 7 January, IP {{u|2804:d41:cb23:cc00:f4ae:3bc:747e:e196}} adds it back. Diff: Also on 7 January, Ibeaa removed it and the reference without explanation. Diff: | |||
| **The next user to re-add the info was {{ping|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}, who also did not use an edit reason, on 9 January. Diff: | |||
| **The IP {{u|2800:355:9:f9f3:3059:222e:2783:93b8}} removed it, without an edit reason, on 11 January. Diff: | |||
| **{{ping|Sundayclose}} reverted the IP on the same day. Diff: | |||
| **Ibeaa then removed the mention again, also on 11 January. Diff: | |||
| **Zander then adds it back on 13 January, still without a reason. Not massively relevant, but Zander used the deprecated phrasing {{tq|committed suicide}} for the first time in this edit, which IP {{u|50.71.82.63}} fixed. Diff: | |||
| **Between 13 and the morning (GMT) of 15 January, Zander added and Ibeaa removed the information ''five times each'', no edit reasons in sight. | |||
| ***Zander: (above 1), , , , | |||
| ***Ibeaa: , , , , | |||
| **I (Kingsif) removed it on 15 January, tucked into the BLP edit, to try and stop the pair from edit warring by saying it should also be discussed. I should have probably done them as separate edits. Diff: | |||
| **Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 15 January. Diff: | |||
| **On 16 January, I again removed it as part of the larger edit. I made a clearer separation in this edit reason, to explain that because inclusion is (clearly) contentious, it should be discussed. Diff: | |||
| **Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 16 January. Diff: | |||
| **Ibeaa removes it, without a reason, also on 16 January. Diff: | |||
| **Sundayclose added it back on 16 January, with the explanation that it is {{tq|accurate and properly sourced}}. FWIW, while accurate, it was sourced to People magazine, which ten days earlier was not accepted as a suitable source for the same information at the ] article. Recently-deceased needs more than a celebrity magazine that actually says "unconfirmed but believed". More pressing, I would expect Sundayclose to have pushed for discussion as the inclusion was clearly contentious. Diff: | |||
| **Ibeaa then removed again on 16 January, with the reason that they didn't know why they were still pursuing the edit war. I would have honestly interpreted that to mean they weren't going to continue, but anyway. Diff: | |||
| **Ibeaa's conduct was already reported here at ANI by Sundayclose, on 17 January, and they were blocked quickly. ]. | |||
| ***I don't know and won't speculate as to why Sundayclose did not also report Zander at this time. | |||
| **After Ibeaa is blocked, Zander continues their side of the edit war on 17 January, still without providing an edit reason. Diff: | |||
| **I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection. | |||
| **Zander then adds the information back, without starting a discussion, before page protection is applied. They appear to have seen this ANI report, as they included an edit reason. Included in the edit reason is that it didn't seem {{tq|vital enough}} to explain themselves, which I can't accept in good faith given they were going back-and-forth directly with Ibeaa and had been told to discuss since the inclusion had proven contentious. Diff: | |||
| *] (]) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I am involved. I didn't want to contribute to this discussion, because I had already realised that Martinvl's mode of operation when challenged on[REDACTED] is often to resort to disruptive POV-pushing. He uses game-playing and wiki-lawyering to deflect any discussion away from the confrontation of his own behaviour into trivial technical issues that he uses in an attempt to have dismissed any and all concerns about his own behaviour. He also uses unjustifiable highly biased and skewed descriptions of others' actions, and distorts people's previous statements to his own ends. He makes implied personal attacks, and seem to think he can bargain them away when the correct course of action for any of us who do this (and we are all at risk of doing so when things become heated) is to immediately apologize and withdraw them unreservedly and sort out anything else after the apology and withdrawal has happened. He edit wars (he reverted 6 times on AN/I for instance). He doesn't do what we all should do. You can find all the evidence that backs up my ideas about him in the postings of other interested parties already in this thread. | |||
| :This is a lot of data. But it seems like if edit-warring is the problem, a complaint filed at ] or a request for page protection at ] would be more suitable than ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I thought a better use of my time would be to walk away and disengage, and to try to increase my productive work on[REDACTED] by writing content and to stay away from unnecessary drama on here or elsewhere. However, what has happened after Martinvl tried to impose the structure on this thread in AN/I, and who could post to bits of it, changed all that. Either by complete lack of insight, or by being over-arrogant, Martinvl spectacularly condemns himself in almost all of his postings to this thread as well as the comments he makes on his own talk page just before his 48 hour block, and certainly afterwards ( https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AMartinvl&diff=577840954&oldid=577439188 ). They have shown me that he cannot restrain a completely unacceptable bundle of behaviour and actions on his part that are completely at odds with key principles of how editors should interact on wikipedia. These actions are the hallmark of someone who believes he is '''battling for THE TRUTH''' as he sees it, someone who seems unwilling to work collaboratively and to accept compromise, and so they seem to be the actions of a kind of fanatic who would be unsuited to be an editor on wikipedia. I speak as someone who actually believes we should work more towards using the metric system in articles, but who completely accepts the compromise and collaborative nature required for good work between editors on wikipedia. As I have said before, we all have to accept that we must make compromises, that consensus does not mean unanimity, and that we will sometimes be in a minority position that we must gracefully abandon and defer easily to enable progress to be made. As Karl Popper once wrote "You may be right, and I may be wrong, and by an effort, we may closer to the truth." Sadly, I can see no signs that Martinvl shares much of this in his actions and behaviour in this current dispute. He appears to be condescending, over-aggressive, and even domineering in his attempots to control other editors' behaviours, especially, it seems, if he thinks these editors disagree with his own position. | |||
| ::You know I'm not a massive fan of ANI and would really prefer to dump data and let y'all assess it yourselves, but if this is to be pursued beyond the immediate article protection (as you can see, it seems to be a magnet), then as I see it what we have is: one case of not-too-bad edit warring from Religião, but with quite BIO/BLP sensitive information and a user who has indicated they will not abide if they disagree, and then one case of probably fine content from Zander, but with truly chronic edit warring and the attitude that since the other guy was blocked they're righteous. Both users have been informed of BLP-contentious but the intersection of the actual edit warring with their flippant-at-best attitudes and the particular sensitive area, makes me think that some further addressing (at least asking them to ''acknowledge'' the issues) is needed to make sure it doesn't recur. ] (]) 12:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Death threats by 2.98.176.93 == | |||
| Whether Martinvl can be persuaded away from this destructive path on[REDACTED] is up to him, but I originally sincerely believed and hoped he could, because his potential use to the project could be very great. I doubt that now. His 6 reversions of the structure he imposed, and his arrogant behaviour towards the admins who have managed this AN/I thread just backup and illustrate the problems all the other editors critical of him have already mentioned. I did wonder whether to be highly critical of Martinvl's behaviour, yet suggest that he should be required, if possible, to work with a mentor to help him understand the more collaborative way that working on[REDACTED] entails. I really do not think that would work unless we see immediate and hopeful signs of a change in behaviour '''now''' from Martinvl on his return from his 48 hour block. I would have thought that he would have stopped digging his self-destructive hole, climbed out, and made the necessary assurances and promises to behave better once the shock of a 48 hour block happened. Instead, we see even more desperate arguments being deployed to, once again, attempt to deflect any argument away from examining '''his''' problematic behaviour by raising technical issues to have any examination of his behaviour thrown out. This is how he tried to deal with his failure to stop consensus on ] over the use of imperial or metric units in the article. These technical issues are either bogus or of no practical effect on anything realistic here. In other words, they are extreme examples of game-playing and wiki-lawyering. This is now, I think, symptomatic of all his behaviour because he seems unable to stop doing it even in the face of action taken against him by uninvolved administrators on AN/I. Instead, he is pouring oil on his own fire. Therefore, I realistically think that some way needs to be found of dealing with Martinvl. If he cannot reform, then either he decides to stop editing or wikipedia, by some mechanism, protects itself from his future disruption, because I am sure that, unless radical change in his behaviour happens, the problems will happen again and may intensify to the detriment of all. I do not know whether this can be done via AN/I, and I wish my involvement in this waste-of-time drama to decrease. I am fed up of all this unnecessary drama over ultimately trivial issues that are already allowed by ] and ]. ] ] 09:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | status = BLOCKED | |||
| | result = Blocked and TPA revoked, nothing further. {{nac}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : I should clarify that my involvement is confined totally and entirely to my actions on ] in trying to stop an edit-war Martinvl was involved in and the subsequent attempt to suggest what consensus was. This led to implied personal attacks against myself and my actions from Martinvl that I broadly construed as making me involved, and therefore, in my own opinion, precluded me from taking any administrative action against further behaviour. However, one of his replies (alluded to in other editor's message, above) suggested that if I had decided in Martinvl's opnion's favour, then all would have been well to him. This is just my own opinion about involvement. ] ] 10:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| {{userlinks|2.98.176.93}} Left a death threat {{diff||1270338492|1270334632|here - diff}}<br /> | |||
| ::I request that this accusation be dismissed without comment by the closing administratgor out on grounds of ]. If the closing admin is not willing to do so, please let me know and I will then mount a defence to rebut the accusations against me. | |||
| ] (]) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In particular the accusations cover '''three''' discussions. Shortly after ] opened this section, he informed , and of this section. After I , he notified another four editors, all of whom had contributed to the debate at ]. He did not contact anybody who contributed to either of the other discussions but did not contribute to ]. I about vote-stacking. To date he does not appear to have taken any notice of my request. | |||
| : |
*Note: 30 day block by {{user|Bbb23}} ] (]) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| *Death threat left after block. Talk page access? ] (]) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*TPA removed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Q.E.D. Once again, an attempt to dismiss any and all concerns of his behaviour by employing a tactic that has been dealt with already on his talk page (referred to already) in raising a bogus technical issue. The hole becomes deeper. ] ] 08:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *May I kindly suggest, Martin, that instead of beating a dead horse with regard to vote-stacking, an issue which administrators have dismissed, you try and respond to some of the concerns voiced here. This would be more productive, and is more likely to result in a positive outcome for everyone involved, including you. At yet, you have not justified your actions in any way, nor have you even acknowledgedwhy many editors have concerns with your behavior with regard to units, and with regard to this ANI thread. ] — ] 18:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think {{tl|Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. ] (]) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **Martin: This contribution is offered to you, in public, in this thread to try to help you see that there is a better way to proceed. Please understand that this is an effort to help you. As RGloucester also advised you, please pay more attention to your own behaviour here. I will quote some of what I wrote, above now. I urge you to read it carefully and consider if you can do what it advises. I think it would help defuse this situation somewhat: "I would have thought that he would have <nowiki></nowiki> made the necessary assurances and promises to behave better once the shock of a 48 hour block happened." If you can do this, then I think you should try to voluntarily call upon wikipedia's mentoring service (details at ]) to help you avoid this drama in the future. ] ] 04:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you use ], you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Exactly, ], thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===A note to the Misplaced Pages community=== | |||
| :::::No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I archived the sections below this, ], ] and ], all created by Martinvl, with the comment: <blockquote>NAC: I know of no policy or precedent on Misplaced Pages that allows an editor under examination on AN/I to create a new section in order to attempt to control its format and content. This is a '''''community''''' discussion, and not your talk page, so I suggest you allow the community to decide how it wants to go about organizing the discourse. ] (]) 04:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)</blockquote> When Martinvl removed my archive wrapper, I restored it with the additional note: <blockquote>Restored after removal by Martinvl. And now I will impose my own conditions: '''''<u>any</u>''''' editor '''''except Martinvl''''' is free to unarchive this. That will help ensure that the removal is a community-based one. ] (]) 06:22, 18 October 2013 (UTC)</blockquote> As might be expected, Martinvl removed it again. I have no intention of restoring it yet again, but I did want the community to know of these actions on Martinvl's part, which appear to me to be antithetical to the process of free and open community discussion. Martinvl, whom I have never come across before, does not seem to exhibit the necessary collegiality and collaborative spirit that make Misplaced Pages possible. He seesm, instead, to want to control anything that concerns himself or the subjects he prefers to edit in. Such a personality is not a good match for this project. ] (]) 06:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : |
::::::Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See ] for your options." ] (]) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| {{abot}} | |||
| {{od}} I have blocked Martinvl for 48 hours for repeated disruption at the ANI thread. ]] 11:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Is that metric hours or imperial hours? ] (]) 13:57, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I believe that the correct answer to that question is ]. {{unsigned|RGloucester}} | |||
| :::You ''are'' kidding, right? ] (]) | |||
| :::Of course, hours aren't ] either. ] (]) 15:47, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I was being deadly serious. In fact, I propose that Misplaced Pages metricate all blocks: the appropriate expression of time for Martin's block being 172800s. ] — ] 22:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::172.8 ], surely? '']'' <small>'']''</small> 17:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes! Believe it or not, that was addressed on my talk page. ] — ] 18:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I think this debate has shown all that needs to be in regards to Martinvl's behaviour, and they have failed to justify any of their actions. I would like to propose at least a year long topic-ban in regards to measurements and some form of community ban for a specified period due to their behaviour as highlighted throughout this AN/I. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:55, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Agree that a year-long topic-ban would be a good way of dealing with this.--] (]) 20:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' long topic ban, as this editor has shown an utter inability to edit neutrally in the area of measurement systems. ] ] 05:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *<b>Support</b> The block appeal at ] demonstrates how any discussion with him on this topic just ends up in a huge ] festival and many users are simply tired of it; the community needs a break. His first action on the block expiry was to repeat accusations of vote stacking, when he has repeatedly been told neutral notices informing other editors is a requirement of ]. ] <small>]</small> 08:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *<s><b>Support, sadly</b> For reasons the others have given. ] ] 08:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC)</s> | |||
| ** '''Comment''' I withdraw my viewpoint after reading the sensible comments by ] about the issue, and also noting the correction to people's imagined intention behind the initial statement that caused these viewpoints to begin being formally made, by ]. ] ] 04:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per above. --''']]]''' 08:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Abstain''' and '''Oppose'''. '''Abstain''' from WCM's original proposal of a ban on discussing use of units in Misplaced Pages articles; I've been staying away from those discussions, the MOSNUM thread drives me to despair. '''Oppose''' banning Martinvl from all articles on units and systems of measurement; the drama levels on these are much lower and Martinvl continues to make constructive edits. '''Oppose''' a community ban; I can't see what it would prevent that lesser bans would not. This ANI thread has escalated rather fast, as ANI threads sometimes do; shouldn't we try an ]? ] (]) 10:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *<s> Oppose' serial sanctions. As Martinvl's block is expiring, we should wait to see if the reflection time has been sufficient for them to gain a better understanding of community norms. <small>]</small> 11:13, 21 October 2013 (UTC)</s> | |||
| :*'''Support,''' given their continued wiki-lawyering upon block expiration. <small>]</small> 10:06, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' ban, mostly per ], but also based on my previous interactions with ]. Let's try some less drastic remedies first. <small><span style="color:gray"><tt>]<span style="display:inline-block;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1em">]<br/>]</span></tt></span></small> 14:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Abstain''' - I feel as if parties involved in the matter should not voice an opinion here. ] — ] 15:20, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I declare my involvement (again). I have long felt that a topic ban was needed due to this editor's chronic inability to edit neutrally in this area. This includes in following the rules on unrelated articles. On RGloucester's point, I disagree: I see no reason not to put my view, declaring my involvement, and allow the closing admin to give it the weight it merits. I didn't comment much above because I didn't feel it would help. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 17:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I did not mean to admonish those who have decided to voice an opinion, merely to state my own. I personally prefer that decision be taken by neutral parties, preferably administrators, who evaluate the matter through their own mental procedures. That is merely why I have not voiced an opinion of either "Oppose" or "Support", and should, as I said, not be taken negatively. ] — ] 18:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - whoa my proposal wasn't meant to be a straw-poll for all of us involved editors to support or oppose. It was my proposal for the admins looking at this page as it is they will decide what action to partake not us. I also removed the sub-section header someone put above my proposal as it was not meant to a straw-poll - that borders on refactoring another editors comment. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Mabuska, thanks for that and I hope you've encouraged Martinvl to engage here or in an RFC/U. Just on a technical note, I don't think it's quite correct to say the admins will decide whether to impose a ban. The community does (unless ArbCom's given a ruling). ] has this: "If an editor has proven to be repeatedly disruptive in one or more areas of Misplaced Pages, the community may engage in a discussion to site ban, topic ban, or place an interaction ban or editing restriction via a consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute. When determining consensus, the closing administrator will assess the strength and quality of the arguments" and then goes into more detail about the process and suchlike. ] (]) 11:01, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivetop|result=No, AN/I does not work this way. Just say what you want to say in regular ol' threaded conversation above. <small>]</small> 10:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
| == |
== Repeated copyvios by Manannan67 == | ||
| *{{userlinks|Manannan67}} | |||
| '''This section is for the use of Martinvl. If anybody else posts here, I will delete their posts. You are welcome to post in the section ]. For my own part, I will ensure that everything that I write is well cross-referenced.''' | |||
| ] has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (, , from ], , ), | |||
| most recently , when I discovered a they placed on . The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did one early warning from the talk page. ] (]) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to ] which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. ] (]) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''@Closing Admin''' | |||
| ::See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to ]. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. ] (]) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :1. I request that this accusation be thrown out on grounds of ]. | |||
| ::: It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." ] (]) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::In particular the accusations cover '''three''' discussions. Shortly after ] opened this section, he informed , and of this section. After I , he notified another four editors, all of whom had contributed to the debate at ]. He did not contact anybody who contributed to either of the other discussions but did not contribute to ]. I about vote-stacking. To date he does not appear to have taken any notice of my request. | |||
| ::::That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. ] (]) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I therefore request that the closing admin close this request without discussion on grounds of violation of ], If the closing admin is not willing to do so, please let me know and I will then mount a defence to rebut the accusations against me. ] (]) 16:36, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Then I have no idea to what you are referring. As I said, I am not familiar with "Portraits of the Saints", nor do I know from where they got their info. ] (]) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Naniwoofg == | |||
| '''@Beyond My Ken''' | |||
| :(Reponse to ]) | |||
| :1. In my view, the structures that I introduced were necessary to prevent this community discussion turning into a ] in which I could become the victim. | |||
| ::] (]) 09:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{User|Naniwoofg}} has been the subject of a complaint at ] for issues involving images and ]. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint includes refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. ] (]) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Closing Admin's comments=== | |||
| '''Will the closing admin please post his/her comments here. This will ensure that they are separate from other comments.''' ] (]) 17:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Can we get a follow-up on this? @] has failed to respond to all inquiries on affected article talk pages, their user talk page, and the Tambayan PH talk page. We have been reverting their unexplained and unusual edits to the infoboxes of several Philippine road and building articles back and forth for the past few days. ] (] • ]) 07:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Response to Martinvl's defence=== | |||
| :'''Support''' sanctioning this user. One latest questionable edit is on ] article, which . Naniwoofg claimed to had updated the infobox images, but the user used an image of the ] ''before the 2019 renovation''. I replaced Naniwoofg's choice of the church image with the one image taken after the renovation. <span style="font-family:Footlight MT">] <span style="background:#68FCF1">('']''|'']'')</span></span> 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Will editors who wish to respond to my defence, please do so here. I will ensure that everything that I write can be cross-referenced using the notation "@A.N.Other (1)".''' ] (]) 16:36, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| == |
==Okvishal and years of self promotion == | ||
| {{atop|1=Okvishal indef'd. Article has been deleted (at its most recent title attempt, ]) and salt applied to all three variations that have been used. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{atop|status=Resolved|No change. See comment at bottom. ] (]) 16:05, 19 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{Ping|Okvishal}} has been an editor for 14 years. They have 138 edits but only 11 of them are non-deleted ones and those non deleted ones are also for self promotion or promotion of their feature film. A look at their talkpage shows the sheer scale of self promotional editing they have done over the course of their wikicareer. Right after joining they created an autobiography which was speedy deleted, they recreated the article under a different title and it was as well. Over the course of 14 years, they have recreated their article and those of related topics several times all leading to waste of community time through AfDs as ,,, and most recently at . It is clear that they are not (and never were) here to build an encyclopaedia. Consider blocking them and ]ing ],],] etc. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 12:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The user unfortunately was not blocked ], which resulted in . Could they be blocked please and told to stay away from Russia-related articles (though I would prefer them to be indeffed given the long-time disruptive behavior).--] (]) 19:20, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I've blocked them as it's clear they're only here to promote their non-notable self. ] ] 22:29, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :They haven't in fact been blocked before, unless you count a 3RR block way back in 2006 , so I don't like to go straight to indef, however much of a timewaster the user appears to be. Blocked for one month for long-time disruptive editing. ] | ] 20:07, 16 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| *P.S. I've alerted them about this thread, and undertaken to port anything they want to say here from their talkpage, if I'm online. ] | ] 20:17, 16 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| *: Thank you. Actually, now they should get automatic notifications.--] (]) 20:34, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::The first ANI thread referenced was not acted upon presumably because it was frivolous. In the second, of which Bishonen is correct I was not notified about, I reverted an edit by an editor with whom I've had content disputes before on a couple of Russian topic articles (e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=565324845&oldid=565222270#User:Holdek, ], https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=569620326&oldid=569540498#User:_Ymblanter). The reversion was to restore a citation needed tag to a caption, per ]: "All material in Misplaced Pages mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and ''captions'', must be verifiable. Sometimes editors will disagree on whether material is verifiable. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material," (emphasis mine), and then to remove an erroneous category listing from the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Moscow_mayoral_election,_2013&diff=prev&oldid=577421683. This is a content dispute that does not rise to the level of a one month ban simply because the other user ] ] (]) 02:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::<sub>Per the big yellow/orange banner, you still need to notify users on their user talk page.--]<sup>]</sup> 20:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)</sub> | |||
| :::: In this case, they explicitly stated about a month agon that I was not welcome at their talk page. Last time, I asked another user to alert Holdek, and Holdek reacted by saying that they are not willing to talk to "my proxy". My point was more that we may be ready to modify the yellow/orange banner.--] (]) 20:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I understand your hesitance under those circumstances, but ultimately such behaviour reflects poorly on the Holdek, not you. As long as the receipt of notifications/mentions remains an option in preferences, the talk page notification remains necessary in order to ensure the editor being discussed is aware of the ANI report.--]<sup>]</sup> 20:54, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Yes, I don't think we need to modify the ANI rules because people sometimes react childishly to being alerted. What does it matter how they react? I don't care if they hold their breath and turn blue. ] | ] 21:04, 16 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| ::::::: Here is the background on that: ]. I do not believe I was acting childishly. ] (]) 18:06, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Ok, when they get unblocked after a month and continue disruptive editing, I will notify them despite their clear unwillingness.--] (]) 21:05, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: I should note that Holdek's tactic last time was to say as little as possible and so get the ANI thread archived. ] (]) 17:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: I noticed that, and indeed they avoid addressing their own behavior blaming everything on me and calling it "a content dispute". But this time, if the thread gets arxived, they will likely have their month-long block reinstated.--] (]) 17:22, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: Provide evidence of your accusation. ] (]) 17:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Note: I've unblocked Holdek, temporarily only, and only for the purpose of contributing to this thread. ] | ] 12:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| *: This is ok. I am not really looking forward, but they should be able to defend their cause and explain why their long-time disruption is not blockable.--] (]) 13:35, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::*{{U|Ymblanter}}, I should block you for using the cliche "going forward" in an official forum, one in which I ''insist'' on proper decorum. ] (]) 21:09, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::*At least they didn't use "reach out to..." ''That'' one makes me grind my teeth when my wife uses it. ] (]) 22:31, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| '''Closing this discussion''', since it's obviously not going anywhere; we're never going to have consensus for a continued block or consensus for unblocking that comes out of this discussion. Meanwhile, I've declined Holdek's unblock request for reasons that I explained . Further discussion at a new thread here or at WP:AN is welcome. ] (]) 16:05, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
| == User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to ]], maybe more) == | |||
| == Uncommunicative IP user removing content == | |||
| *{{userlinks|Cherkash}} | |||
| Hello all, | |||
| The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see ], ]). </br> | |||
| The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the ] pages and even had raised the issue here , with no visible actions following. | |||
| For quite some time now, <span class="plainlinks"><!-- | |||
| -->] {{#iferror:{{#expr:68.212.91.236 round 0}} | |||
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| -->__NOINDEX__</span> has been from the article <span id="{{anchorencode:SWAT 3: Close Quarters Battle}}"></span><span class="plainlinks nourlexpansion lx">] <span class="ln-condensed-link-toolbar">{{toolbar | |||
| Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg | |||
| <!-- Edit --> | |||
| |1= | |||
| They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints. | |||
| <!-- Talk --> | |||
| |2= ] | |||
| Other examples can be seen from ], such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: , | |||
| <!-- History --> | |||
| |3= | |||
| The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN ], ], ], ]. | |||
| <!-- Protect --> | |||
| |4= | |||
| I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content. | |||
| <!-- Links --> | |||
| ] (]) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| |5= | |||
| :Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? ] (]) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the ], e.g. about normalising ], and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in ]. | |||
| ::I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via ''de facto'' statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often ], which I cannot even comment on. ] (]) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Here is a link to the last time this was raised here. | |||
| :::The short form: there appears to be a dispute between use of de-facto or de-jure borders. That is why Taiwan comes up. Some editors appear to believe that it is more neutral to either use de facto borders (Taiwan independent, Crimea not part of Ukraine) rather than de jure borders (Taiwan = China, Crimea = Ukraine). | |||
| :::I would suggest, whether de facto or de jurw borders are used the map should be consistent in that usage. I would also suggest that {{User|Unas964}} should adhere to ] while {{user|Cherkash}} needs to start communicating with other editors at least minimally, which will likely ease such assumptions regarding their editing.] (]) 19:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::In any case, what's the alleged misbehaviour here? We can't stop an editor uploading images on commons, nor can we do anything about what is in their categories. We can prevent these images being used in our articles but is the editor actually the one putting them in our articles? ] (]) 23:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I am the editor in question. I am Ukrainian. This is not anti Ukrainian, it’s anti nazi. Everything is true and properly sourced. Problems don’t get fixed unless you recognize them. I’ve given specific criticisms about the encyclopedia that are all true and added known contributors. This is not a anti Ukrainian effort and I’m very taken back by this accusation. Clearly nobody here is assuming good faith ] (]) 17:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Occupation of Crimea is anti nazi? What proper source can prove that? Only Russian propagandists exploit such a narrative. ] (]) 18:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Out}}UN Resolutions are not Misplaced Pages guidelines. They're not even binding for the countries involved, let alone Misplaced Pages. UN Resolutions do not recognize Taiwan nor Israeli current borders, yet we recognize their independence and their ''de facto'' territories in out articles. ''De jure'', there's no Taiwan, and Israel is still at war with Iraq since 1947. ''De jure'', the ] violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union. Do we care? Misplaced Pages focuses on facts, the ''de facto'' state of the world, not bound by temporary laws made by temporary entities which often don't even recognize each other: according to Bhutan, ''de jure'' there's no Croatia; according to Greece, there's no Northern Cyprus; according to Serbia, there's no Kosovo; according to the UN, there's no Taiwan... should we follow them? Of course not. You're free to be pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian, as long as you stick to facts. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :My only horse in this race is that Misplaced Pages should be consistent, at least at the level of any given artifact (such as a map), of showing either de jure borders, de facto borders or no borders at all. It is non-neutral to pick and choose de facto for thee, de jure for me. ] (]) 14:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- Watch --> | |||
| ::{{re|Simonm223}} Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their ''de facto'' state. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| |6= | |||
| :::Taiwan is de facto independent and de jure non-independent so I think you may have the terms backward there. However this speaks to my point - the important thing, from a neutrality position, is to stick to a consistent method of parsing these factual questions. Because, in a lot of these cases, it's not a matter of "facts over anything" but is rather making a positive decision which set of facts to prefer. It is a ''fact'' that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine. It is also a ''fact'' that Crimea is not presently being administered by Ukraine and is thus de facto not part of that country. If we have a map that chooses to prefer the de jure condition of Crimea as part of Ukraine and then to use the de facto boundary between China and Taiwan this is now non-neutral. It's Misplaced Pages failing to set a consistent standard and instead going based on vibes. | |||
| :::Standards must be consistent. Ideally these standards should be consistent across the project and documented in an MOS. Failing that these standards should be consistent within any given article. Failing that these standards absolutely must be consistent in an indivisible artifact such as a map. | |||
| :::As a corollary it is ''in favour of Misplaced Pages's neutrality goals'' to prefer a consistent representation of borders, whether that is de facto, de jure or to not show national borders at all (which remains an option). Now I will note that I didn't see much in the way of talk page discussion or of edit summaries from @] - which I pointed out as somewhere they could improve in my original comment - but if Cherkash is, in fact, motivated by wanting a consistent standard for depicting national boundaries on a map then @] has seriously failed to ] by depicting said forwarding of neutrality goals as if it were a hate-motivated attack on Ukraine. ] (]) 15:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{re|Simonm223}} I '''don't''' {{tq|have the terms backward there}}. I literally stated that {{tq|''De jure'', there's no Taiwan}}, and also what I meant for {{tq|facts, the ''de facto'' state of the world}}. Please, work on your reading and comprehension skills before making such accusations. Misplaced Pages requires ]. // and no, '''it is not''' {{tq|a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine}}, as ''de jure'' {{tq|the ] violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union}}, as I had already wrote, because ''de jure'' the ] didn't have the authority to mandate land exchanges among constituent states, power which they only had ''de facto''. Do better. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 03:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Taiwan is not de jure non-independent, de jure inherently requires picking a jure so to speak. It's a ruling from within a legal system, not a natural fact. That said, I agree picking maps with particular borders is not hateful conduct. If there's diffs of something else, it would be helpful to see them. ] (]) 15:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::According to that logic, any war crime or mass genocide could be justified by neutrality and ]. In theory, that does not align with ], since neutrality cannot allow for extremist views. Yet considering the replies here, I conclude that there is a consensus on Misplaced Pages that in the ] the positions of the victim and the aggressor are treated as equal or in favour of the former. ] (]) 17:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration ] (]) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::This is fast reaching ] territory. ] (]) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::We also have ]. ] (]) 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :There is no point in speculating what was legal or not in a totalitarian state, where laws are primarily instruments for maintaining control and suppressing opposition rather than upholding justice (see e.h. ). The soviet/Russian viewpoint on Crimea has the same zero value as the position of Third Reich on the state of Israel. It cannot be attributed to the same weight as of the democratic countries as Ukraine, Israel, the US etc. In the same way, you could justify the ], ], ] and ] by some ''de facto laws''. Soviet regime murdered tens of millions of people, and the current Russian legal system justifies that: not only ], ] and the other indigenous minorities in Crimea, but in oher regions, as well (as e.g. ]). That renders ''de facto maps'' a propaganda instrument of a malevolent state, which could not be accepted on any basis of neutrality. | |||
| :Yet you equalise the positions of tyranical dictatorships and democratic countries while rejecting the UN resolutions. I see this as a violation of ] and consider not to be taken into discussion at all. ] (]) 07:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|''de facto laws''}}? You're way too confused. {{langnf|la|de jure|by (some country's) law}} is the total opposite of {{langnf|la|de facto|by facts, in reality}}. That's the point. Nice list of stuff tho. Have fun. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 08:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I can't help but notice that the editor this complaint is concerned with, Cherkash, hasn't responded and hasn't edited on the project since January 12th and has barely edited in 2025 at all. What was the urgency in posting this complaint right now, ]? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:It is urgent as long as there is the ongoing war undermining the Ukrainian territorial integrity. If Misplaced Pages policies (],] etc) allow for undermining the legacy of Ukrainian state in favour of the aggressor, which such maps do under some ''consensus'' or ''de facto bodrers'' pretexts, then indeed it has no sense. | |||
| *:If not, I shall propose to remove all of those maps in all relevant articles, treating them as tools to normalise the occupation of Crimea. ] (]) 07:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I'm a bit concerned that {{U|Unas964}} has committed to continuing to edit in the Russia-Ukraine war CTOP after being informed of the ECR restriction. This includes , regarding ] "pro-Russian attacks." at this thread among other diffs that I will leave off as being, you know, quite visible already in this conversation. I am concerned that they have a ] mentality since their edit summary on my attempt to point them to ] was reverted with an edit summary of - very similar to the previous pro-Russian attacks" comment. People are free to clerk their own talk pages as they see fit but to characterize "The encyclopedia, in fact, tries to be neutral regarding global conflicts, cleaving to what reliable sources say about those conflicts but generally making sure to attribute any notable opinions on the conflict to the opinion-holder," as pro-Putin is a bit of an alarming response as is responding to concerns regarding canvassing by accusing the editor of pro-Russian attacks. I am worried that Unas964, as in their interaction with Cherkash that led to this thread, is incapable of assuming good faith and also seems unwilling to comply with ECR restrictions surrounding the war in question. ] (]) 13:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I can confirm that - yes - I consider multiplying warnings and threats to me without any try to search an alternative or copromise a pro-Russian stand. I see no support either, only bullying to preserve the status quo of the pro-Russian view on the matter. ] (]) 14:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposal - short duration block for Unas964=== | |||
| <!-- Logs --> | |||
| |7= | |||
| I am not going to ask for an indef here as I don't really want to bite the newbie but this has gone on for long enough. Unas964 is very aware that extended confirmed status is required to edit on the Russia / Ukraine conflict and yet continues not only to do so, but to do so in a way that is highly confrontational, completely fails to ] and that is replete with ] violations. They have a severe ] mentality and hasten to accuse anyone who attempts to ''help them understand'' concepts such as ] of being Putinists. I think it's high time that they are demonstrated that such behaviour will have a consequence. A tban is inappropriate because this editor already should not be editing in this CTOP. So that really only leaves us with a block to get their attention and to hopefully stem this disruptive behaviour. ] (]) 18:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <!-- Page views (90 days) --> | |||
| :'''Support''' I completely agree with everything Simonm223 mentions. I also want to add that Unas964 doesn't seem to be taking others' rebuttals into account. Instead, he just either brushes them off or completely disregards them, as can be seen in basically whole thread. Just scroll down and you'll see what I mean. ] (]) 19:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| |8= | |||
| }}</span></span>. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that sentence and the user has never left an edit summary or talkpage post explaining their reasoning, despite . What can be done? I'd treat this as simple content removal vandalism were it not for the considerable amount of time this has being going on for. | |||
| == Hamzajanah posting vanity hoaxes and general NOTHERE behaviour == | |||
| Cheers, ] <sup>] ] ]</sup> 17:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=] user is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :Slow-mo edit war on a simple content dispute. Templates all around. Next step would be protection and/or block(s). ] <small>(])</small> 18:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Hamzajanah}} | |||
| ::I'll step away as requested, but 68.212.91.236 has ''never'' communicated on this issue or even acknowledged attempts at contact. They've just removed the sentence again each time. I have no idea what he/she finds objectionable about the sentence in question - if they'd only say something I'd be quite willing to accomodate them. ] <sup>] ] ]</sup> 18:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I'm really struggling with this new user. They have posted ] and ] both autobiographies and both contained multiple hoaxes. They are continually using Misplaced Pages as a ] and violating ] too. They are constantly boasting about their wealth, see for example. They claim to be a close associate of ], ] and ]. They are also . I have not seen one constructive edit and their is one of the worst I've seen and also warns us of "persistent sockpuppetry". This is bordering on ] already. Their ability to navigate Misplaced Pages suggests that they might have had previous accounts and might even be an LTA vandal but I can't think who it is. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| How am I supposed to go through dispute resolution with someone who refuses to communicate? I'm not even that bothered about the article staying in one particular state, I'm only asking that content removals should have a proper explanation. Oh, and ], thanks. ] <sup>] ] ]</sup> 01:05, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :That filter is notoriously poor for detecting socks. I believe it was created with one sockmaster in mind, and yet based on how it functions (I'm not good at filters), comes up with many (mostly?) false positives.--] (]) 17:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. ] (]) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — ] ] 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think that that's a fair outcome. Thanks all. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Edward Myer == | |||
| Okay, so 68.212.91.236 , as usual with no edit summary or explanation what the problem is and ignoring all their talk page messages asking them to stop and explain. As promised, I'm not going to revert again. Can somebody please help/advise with this? In a way, I've already tried resolving this 'dispute' informally through talk page messages but gotten nowhere because 68.212.91.236 won't answer them. I can't see how formal ] is going do any better. Thank you, ] <sup>] ] ]</sup> 20:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Edward Myer}} | |||
| As of 19 October, this issue is still not resolved. (However, the signature time on my previous post is now.) ] <sup>] ] ]</sup> 18:20, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|Edward Myer}} was recently ] for two weeks, for creating a sock account to retaliate against myself and another AfC reviewer whose reviews they didn't like. (The socking was just the tip of the iceberg, there's much more to this as ] shows.) That block expired a few days ago, and since then they're back on the war footing, complaining and insinuating ], ] and ]; as well as posting similar stuff on the talk pages of ], ] and ]. I think this needs to stop; for one thing it's a time sink, and I for one really don't care for the belligerence. I don't think I should be the one to indef them, as I'm involved, but I'd be grateful if someone did. --] (]) 18:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I've blocked the IP for 31 hours for continued edit warring after ]'s warning. ] | ] 18:41, 19 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| ::Thanks! What should be done about the article? I'll try asking 68.212.91.236 again what they think is wrong with it. Would it be acceptable if I rewrote/rephrased the paragraph, in case the user just doesn't like the wording or something? I'm still not going to revert again. ] <sup>] ] ]</sup> 19:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Right, I noticed your post on their page. Kudos for not giving up on them. I'm not sure what's best to do... try rewriting the paragraph by all means, if they still don't respond, and maybe use the word "compromise" in the edit summary. If you think the matter deserves that amount of trouble. ] | ] 19:59, 19 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| ::::Alright then. I'll see if they'll be encouraged to respond, but in the meantime I'll look at making that section a bit more succint, something possibly more to their liking. ] <sup>] ] ]</sup> 00:21, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Block not needed. The content being removed is not sourced, and I would have removed it as well. In fact, the entire article is very lacking sources. Very bad state its in, I would revert as well, seeing as it is lacking verifiability. . --] ], 21:35, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm aware that the article isn't exactly TFA material - and I'll bear your point about the article's sourcing in mind when I next have time to really work on it - but content issues don't justify abandoning basic editing principles (like "Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project - communicating with other editors is essential"). Anyway, 68.212.91.236 with the compromise version, though they still haven't left edit summaries or replied to any messages. ] <sup>] ] ]</sup> 09:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *I am not involved except insofar as I have declined ], but I saw their behaviour towards others and it made me consider whether I would make a review, especially to decline. A less resilient reviewer might well have avoided it. | |||
| == Ludwig von Mises Institute == | |||
| :I confess that I am waiting for the invective, and I support {{u|DoubleGrazing}}'s well measured request on that basis. | |||
| :My view is for one final attempt in case they are educable. If they are not then 'final' should mean 'indefinite editing restrictions' 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 18:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::They have been ], . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at ]. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. ] ] ] 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::To be fair, the sandbox may have a better shot at acceptance! I aways believe in extending my good faith as far as possible. I have seen some remarkable turnarounds by doing so. Obviously there comes a point, but I am not wholly sure we are there yet. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks for taking the initiative in filing this ANI, DG; I was || this close to filing it myself. This user ]. - ] ] 22:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. ] (]) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{smalldiv|1=The above post is a duplicate of that posted at . ] ] 22:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Seems like a clear case of ] and just wanting to push an article to mainspace and ] without even citing such. Sounds like a longer block may be necessary. ] ] 23:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], this is serious. Have you read over this complaint? Can you let this grudge go and go on to do some productive editing and let the past be the past? If you continue on this path, I don't see you editing on Misplaced Pages for the long term. This is a moment where you can choose to change your approach and turn around you time here as an editor. But it is up to your willingness to do so. Does that sound like something you can and want to do? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The ] has been the subject of significant edit warring over the past several weeks. It has been fully protected twice within the past month (by myself and {{user|Orlady}}), but immediately after the expiry of each protection, edit warring has immediately resumed. After today's edit war, I considered issuing blocks, but only one party broke 3RR ({{user|MilesMoney}} by my math) and several stopped <s>just</s> before the line, so I hesitate to block one editor for crossing the line while others were arguably edit warring as well. {{user|Iselilja}}, {{user|Srich32977}}, {{user|SPECIFICO}}, and {{user|Binksternet}} have made multiple reverts today but stopped short of violating 3RR. Would it be possible to enact a community 1RR restriction on this article, as was recently placed on ]? I think that type of measure may be needed. ] (]) 20:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *:My field of expertise is Hip Hop. I do intend to do other articles on other subjects, and add relevant updates to current live articles. I'm here to be apart of the community and contribute to[REDACTED] in a specific field that I'm passionate about. I hold no grudge or ill will for no one. As I said to LiZ I had to get adjusted to how communication on[REDACTED] works. ] (]) 14:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I would recommend page protection and a rollback of the article to the expiry of the prior PP. It's clear in hindsight that the PP was removed prematurely so rollback and renewal of PP seems as if it would accomplish what was originally intended/hoped to work. 1RR seems to require a lot of work for Admins and no bright line for editors -- and has the possibility of degenerating into a game of musical chairs. ]] 20:20, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :BTW, Srich is at 4RR and counting. and seems to have been the one who inflamed the situation with a scattershot campaign of reverts during a short recent period. Although PP should solve the problem for now, Srich's disregard of warnings from various editors and admins over the past 4-6 weeks have made for an increasingly disruptive environment on these Mises-related articles. ]] 20:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Eh? The page protection is applied without implying any judgement on the content at that point. - ] (]) 20:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hello Sitush. I have no idea what the article looked like at the expiry, but it's clear that the PP should not have been allowed to expire '''clear in hindsight that is''' -- so I'm suggesting we just get back to what was originally intended by the PP. I don't see Mark or anyone else commenting on the article as of any date. ]] 20:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::"Rolling back" the article to an earlier state will not help. After each of my Bold edits was Reverted I opened a talk page Discussion thread. I also readded SPS tags needed to facilitate discussion. Templates for OR and Off-Topic sections were added, along with discussion threads. Some of my edits resolved clear editing problems with duplicate info, citations, unsupported info. Thanks. – ] (]) 20:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Also, I see that 2 of the 4 complaints that Specifico posts are the additions of the SPS tags and OR/Off-topic template. Jeez! – ] (]) 20:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Spoken like a true edit-warrior, Srich. There's always some special reason or exception for you, right? If only we understood you better. We feel your pain. ]] 21:05, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm open to extending protection another week or month or whatever, but I have a strong suspicion that we'll be back in this exact situation when it expires. Perhaps I'm being too pessimistic though. ] (]) 20:43, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I have no objection to a 1RR rule or full page protection, but that does not address the underlying problem whose name is MilesMoney, a clear-cut troll that solely exists on Misplaced Pages to disrupt and has wasted tons of the community's time already. This is why I reverted him twice without much discussions. MM has already generated far, far too much needless debate with his often frivolous edits and talk page suggestions. I saw you (Arsten) refused to call him a Duck in the SPI case, but he has all the charactestics of that user and regardless of who he is he needs to be given the curb and he can be given that on his own merits now. I am going to propose a site ban of MilesMoney (which I was already considering before this happened, but I dread wasting more time on him). If the site ban suggestion fails, I will bring this for the ArbCom for consideration. We can not live with a situation where a user gets to troll and waste the community's time for months, while a serious editor like me get approached like an edit warrior because I did my duty as a conscientious Wikipedian to revert a troll twice. Regards, ] (]) 20:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I didn't mean to characterize you as an edit warrior in my post, I was just noting that many editors were making >1 revert to support my belief that 1RR should be enforced. As far as sanctions for MM are concerned, I think it would be better to consider a topic ban before jumping straight to a site ban discussion. ] (]) 21:05, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::For clarification of the latter part of my comment here, see ]. ] (]) 21:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Sorry for lasthing out a bit. I have great respect for what you are doing at Misplaced Pages. But something I am very concerned about is if we end up in a situation where those who fight a very disruptive user ends up being treated as just as bad as the disruptive user himself. MilesMoney has created disruption in virtually he has involved himself in. . Most of us create disruption wherever we go but manage to edit constructively and collaborate with other users. When I have engaged myself a bit in the issues at hand here it’s because I seriously think that MilesMoney is not editing responsibly and other users need to counter him. Topic banning MilesMoney from Economics/American politics should probably help the situation more than anything else (save a full site ban, which I think is merited, but I can agree to not propose that at the moment). I am not too impressed with some of those who side with Money either, but MM seems to be the major initiator of much of the recent disputes. Regards, ] (]) 21:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Hear, hear. It has always been a problem here, that those who grapple with disruptive editors are likewise branded as disruptive. I hope objective viewers can accurately sort out the characters at play in this range of topics, to find those with a motive and a strong point of view. ] (]) 23:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you Binksternet. I fully support your comment downthread. You know the situation and the other two named users better than me and you do a very important job in protecting the seriousness of Misplaced Pages which you should be commended for. Regards, ] (]) 00:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' some sort of community sanctions on this article as well as the related article(s) like ] which seem to be getting the same kind of aggressive editing by the same core group of editors (including {{User|Steeletrap}}, who wasn't mentioned in the initial post). I've been watching these articles for a couple of weeks, as well as the talkpages of the involved editors, and something does need to be done, whether that be 1RR restrictions or long term protection (obviously an unattractive option) or topic bans. Like Mark Arsten, I'm not terribly optimistic about the situation, particularly since the battleground seems to move from article to article. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 20:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::No ''community'' sanction is warranted. Please read ] if you'd like to see who the sole cause of all this disruption across the project is. Search for the personal attacks on Frank O'Connor on that talk page to see it clear as day. The entire issue can be solved by sanctioning '''MilesMoney''', the one editor who is indeed guilty of edit warring at the Von Mises Institute article. ] (]) 21:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::<small>Heh, I initially misunderstood your suggestion...I went to the talk page and did a search for the words "personal attack". There did seem to be a common thread. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 21:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :I support at least a topic ban for MilesMoney, covering all economics, anarchism and libertarian topics, broadly construed. The reason is that MilesMoney is disruptive—he jumps in to play Eris, to increase the level of conflict and discord. He has no positive contribution to make relative to content. | |||
| :However, I do not want MilesMoney's antics to distract from the obviously emotion-driven POV activism of Steeletrap, and the stealthy evisceration performed by Specifico who slowly but surely takes away content showing certain parties in a positive light, and just as slowly but surely highlights the negative. | |||
| :Me, I have no love for Austrian School economists (I am in favor of government-instituted economic policies) and I am not at all an economist by training or practice, so I am as neutral on the general topic as can be achieved here on Misplaced Pages. When I was alerted to problems related to Austrian School topics I found Steeletrap and Specifico working their POV changes to put one faction in a bad light. It became clear that they were fans of a competing faction, and that their purpose on Misplaced Pages was to reduce the respectability of their ideological opponents. Whatever I do at those articles is intended to establish as neutral a tone as possible. ] (]) 21:50, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::It would be convenient if the focus of the problem were also the cause. Sadly, life doesn't always work that way. ] (]) 22:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: Bink, you fundamentally misunderstand ]. Your (by your own admission) knowing nothing about economics means you're unable to distinguish from ] and ] economists and schools of economics. (LvMI is *by their own admission* the former; independent RS associated with academic institutions are almost uniformly critical of its scholars, owing to their dogmatic rejection of the scientific method as applied to economics.) Your ] perspective is akin to someone who knows nothing about biology insisting on adding "equal space" for evolutionism and creationism. ] (]) 23:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I fully support and trust the judgement of Binksternet here. Regards, ] (]) 00:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| '''Comment''' Though I wasn't mentioned by OP, I am heavily involved in these articles. I can only speak for myself, but I think stepping back and taking a deep breath would be a good idea, and I certainly intend on doing that. (In any case, while bias is still a problem on the LvMI articles, it is much less so than when I arrived on WP, at which time they were almost entirely sourced to fellow Mises Institute friends/colleagues, which gave a grotesquely biased presentation of the reception of impact of these thinkers.) However, I am highly concerned by the combination of sensational allegations with no corroborating diffs characterizing the above discussion. Administrator ] in particular should recuse himself any discussion concerning Milesmoney, owing to the credibility hit he took in publicly accusing Miles of being a sock, bereft of any evidence, in charges that were dismissed as groundless. ] (]) 23:38, 17 October 2013 (UTC)<br> | |||
| :To be precise, the SPI was closed with no action because the checkuser evidence was stale and there was insufficient evidence to block per ]. ] (]) 00:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| '''@Sitush''' - Sitush, isn't there by definition a behavioral problem whenever Page Protection is required? Let's keep this simple and take one step at a time. ]] 23:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)<br> | |||
| '''@Sitush''' - Shitush, the point of rollback is not to get to any particular version. The point is to make it as if the old protection never ended so we restore the protection and the article to T-1 one second before the protection ended. To me that's a neat and objective solution. 00:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *I agree with Mark Arsten that the problem with this article (and others related to it) isn't going to be resolved by short-term full-protection, because the warriors simply bide their time until the protection expires, when they can get back to warring. The vitriol spilled on this page (among others) is an indication of one reason why a 1RR restriction also won't work. That is, this dispute is no longer just about strong opinions on the article topic -- it's become highly personalized. | |||
| :Below I suggest that we full-protect the article for an indefinite duration to keep the warring away from the article page. If similar disputes occur on related articles, let's full-protect them, too -- until somebody comes up with a decent draft article that won't inflame new wars. --] (]) 01:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::My understanding of ANI is that admins don't comment on content. But Orlady wants a better article before a freeze she suggests is removed. Meanwhile she has no problem with MilesMoney violating 4RR? This seems off to me. ] (]) 04:00, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::My apologies for not clarifying that my comment did not address every aspect of the edit war. (Anyway, since MilesMoney has already accused me of meatpuppetry after I intervened on this article, it's probably best if I don't comment on him.) My point is that (1) there are multiple edit-warriors here and (2) short-term protection has not been effective in getting them to discuss their content disputes because they simply wait for the protection to expire, then resume warring; therefore, I propose indefinite protection until somebody somehow manages to work out the content issues. --] (]) 19:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Before any action is taken, I have made a substantial offer of assistance to Edward Myer on their user talk page. I am no-one special to make the offer, and I would like us to take a little time to see if it can be effective before reaching any conclusion. I have had some success before with helping editors who are in pain here. The offer is in the spirit of my early post in this thread. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 07:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Support 1RR as minimal solution for this article, per below. '''] ''' 12:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. ] (]) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''@Binksternet''' - I don't think it's very important which version is the one protected. I stated my reason for rolling back to the old protected version above, namely that it undoes what in hindsight was the premature ending of the PP in effect earlier this month. The advantage of that approach is that it doesn't depend on content but rather would take the article back to before it became unstable. I believe that is an established WP principle. At any rate, whatever version is protected will presumably end up being revised as a result of consensus during the protection. I think that the important point is that 1RR is somewhat ambiguous and is going to be more work for Admins and more confusing for editors. Which version is protected or whether it's indefinite, as Orlady has proposed, I think are secondary questions which could be determined by whoever closes this thread. It appears that there's a consensus for some kind of PP in preference to 1RR. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> | |||
| :::We have started to work together. May I suggest respectfully that any other matters be set aside for the duration? They can always be returned to if deemed necessary. My hope is that editors will not feel it to be necessary. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''SPECIFICO'''</font>]]] 19:24, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :My concern is the sock. Edward Myer, do you promise never to sock again? ] (]) 14:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Why don't we go farther back than that? We could return to , just prior to which included your removal of the word "academic" and any form of the word ''scholar'' from the lead section; a clear downgrade of the status of LvMI. Starting from there, with each proposed change requiring talk page consensus, might prove quite interesting. ] (]) 01:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Please revoke TPA from ] == | |||
| ===PROPOSAL=== | |||
| {{archive top|result={{done}}. ] 20:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| The article be rolled back to the version as of whenever the last PP expired, and then Full Protected until November 1. Please do not put threaded discussion here. Use space above. ]] 23:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * {{vandal|JEIT BRANDS}} | |||
| Talk page abuse, still spamming after block, please revoke TPA ] 18:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{ab}} | |||
| == Continual ECP-Violating Posts in WP:RUSUKR area by User_talk:Valentinianus_I == | |||
| * '''STATUS QUO''' I've changed my opinion. Constructive editing has resumed, with the warriors now using the talk page and I endorse leaving the article unprotected. The cycle of EW may have been broken by this discussion. <s>'''Support''' as per my initial comment above.</s> Let's drop the off topic rehash of resentments and accusations here. ]] 23:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked for a week. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Oppose''': as I implied above, there is no need to roll it back. As others have said, a further period of protection is unlikely to achieve anything given how long this has been rumbling on for and the number of related articles. There is a behavioural issue here, not a mere content dispute. - ] (]) 23:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|_Valentinianus I}} | |||
| * '''Support''' we could all use a deep breath. The above speculations about "topic bans" for user miles are highly inappropriate, not the least because they come from an administrator who falsely and publicly accused him of being a "sock." Several weeks of a WP imposed "vacation" from the LvMI article would do everyone some good. ] (]) 23:58, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ] is an editor with 80 edits as of the moment I'm writing this, the majority of edits made to ] topics. | |||
| :*The purpose of full protection is not to provide a "vacation" from an article but to provide time for consensus regarding content to emerge. If you want a vacation from it then just use some self-control and stay away. - ] (]) 00:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Please do not put threaded discussion here. Use space above." | |||
| ::: I won't touch what you wrote, but it would be good if you moved your comment above, as requested. Please do so (and I'll then remove this request, of course). ] (]) 00:24, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I'm quite happy with it being situated as it is, thanks. It is perfectly normal on ANI and Specifico has already been informed of this (as I am sure you know). - ] (]) 00:30, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::@Steeletrap, I assume you are referring to me as the administrator who initiated the sockpuppet investigation, but you might be confusing/conflating me with someone else, since I didn't propose a topic ban for Miles. That was suggested first (I think) by Iselija and seconded by others, but I certainly didn't initiate it, nor did I make any move to support it. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 01:26, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' – A "rollback" reverts the SPS tags pertaining to topics under discussion, the off-topic template (also under discussion), the OR template (under discussion), and the clearly appropriate edits that have been undertaken (of which I have a few). – ] (]) 00:02, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support ''' - We need full protection. Rolling back to the last stable version is reasonable, particularly given the rash of questionable recent changes. But the key is full protection, else Srich32977 will repeat their performance and spark a flurry of reverts. ] (]) 00:21, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :*The changes are "questionable" to ''you'', obviously. That does not mean that they are to other people and is precisely why we do not protect a preferred version. - ] (]) 00:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' Can we really roll back to a preferred "version" by consensus? I have always been told the revert goes to the last stable version and is then locked. I will watch the discussion here with interest to see how this is concluded. Any explanation to anything I am missing is welcome.--] (]) 00:46, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :*When there has been as much edit warring as here and over so long a period of time, there is no "stable" version. - ] (]) 00:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::On the face of that, I can understand why you would think that...but even if we have to go back years...there has to be a stable version. If there really isn't, it may be AFD time.--] (]) 03:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::We could always stub it - just use the lead section and then rebuild ''after'' people agree on content. The lead looks to be pretty innocuous at present. - ] (]) 03:05, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well...look at me all painted embarrassed!~ I did not see this suggestion from you when I responded below. Yes, Sitush, I agree and support the stubbing of the article!--] (]) 03:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *IMO, it's time to full-protect this article for an indefinite duration. Short-term protection has not achieved the desired goal of quelling the edit warring. I have been disappointed to see that, instead of discussing the article during the protection periods and developing decent draft language that everyone can acquiesce to (which is what would happen in an ideal situation), the combatants have quietly waited for the protection to expire so they could get back to their wars. | |||
| :In its current and recent forms, the article has serious deficiencies in structure, sourcing, tone, etc. I believe that most of the issues in the wars could be made to go away if somebody produced a good quality encyclopedic article that is built around objective information (rather than points of view), is structured so as to make sense to someone who does not already have a strong POV about the article topic, and is sourced to the kinds of reliable sources we usually look for. I think it's time to full-protect the article until somebody can create a decent draft outside of article space. In the meantime, administrators can respond to requests to fix errors, update bad urls, etc. --] (]) 01:29, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Full protect''' ''in the present version''. Looking at the diff from 13 Oct to the present , there is only one "controversial" edit outstanding – the inclusion or exclusion of "historical revisionism" in the infobox. The material on Ferrera was changed by me and did not seem to meet with objection. There are templates added and some minor edits regarding the number of scholars, a duplicate mention of the library, and the removal of unsourced material about the institute being housed in a shed for a short time. All of the other "major"changes made by me were restored and discussion threads were set up. The templates now in the article point to the discussions. Stubbing the article runs the risk of repeating the RSN debates about using blog material from Callahan and Murphy, and other debates. – ] (]) 04:06, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. I don't think Specifico's preferred version is the best possible one. I like the more recent Srich edits which have augmented the article. ] (]) 05:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Full protect''' the present version, but '''indefinitely''' because recent history indicates that temporary protection (whether to November 1 or any other date) isn't going to be effective in getting the parties to deal with the issues constructively. --] (]) 19:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * As background, this editor was notified repeatedly by ] in August , and clarified . Melik again notified Valentinianus a month later in response to more edits that were not exempt , . | |||
| === Broader concerns === | |||
| I saw this and immediately thought of ] from a few weeks back. At that time there was a feud over the BLP of the Austrian economist ] and it saw similar issues of edit-warring along with tendentious editing from several parties, basically the same people involved in this latest dispute. This appears to be a problem that touches on articles about Austrian Economics in general. I am not sure if any one party is the sole source of the problem.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 00:09, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Austrian Economics has become a real battleground lately, true. In addition to HHH and LvMI, ] has had a lot of problems lately. I could see this conceivably going to Arbcom, much like the Tea Party dispute. ] (]) 00:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Arbcom can hand out sanctions, I'm sure, but isn't the real problem one of content? If so, maybe we should try to solve it from that direction. ] (]) 01:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::DR/N has a backlog so I suggest going directly to Med Com with this one. But only if you want to deal with content only. Arb Com has shown the balls to hand out wide sanctions over behavior lately (Tea party sanctions, Manning sanctions etc.)and would be the best route for that. AN/I may be able to deal with this, I don't know for sure, but I still say...revert to the last stable version even if we have to stub the article.--] (]) 03:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::While I won't defend the behavior of the editors of this article (including, for the sake of argument, my own), I don't think the problem is centered on behavior. Even if Arbcon topic-banned everyone who's edited the article in the last year, we'd just be replaced by another round of mutually hostile editors who'll get into the same messes over the same topics all over again. | |||
| ::::The problem is that it's hard to edit this article without a deep knowledge of the subject, but such a knowledge is gained only at the expense of forming opinions and taking sides. The LmVI is not just controversial inside Misplaced Pages, it's controversial in the world at large. The relationship between it and the Austrian school is complex and full of reliable sources that disagree. The figures, many of them no longer alive, are colorful and outspoken. There are credible allegations of many unacceptable views (racism, etc.) that we must report on fairly and accurately. | |||
| ::::I could go on, but it's an innately hard problem that can't be solved by banging everyone's heads together. ] (]) 03:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * Valentinianus was blocked for a few weeks in October until ] unblocked them after giving benefit of the doubt. I'm only bringing this up because Rosguill, during the unblock reference notified Valentinianus that they would "like you to confirm that you've read and understand ] by identifying edits that you have made in violation of it, and how you will observe it going forward." | |||
| {{od}}'''Extreme editor bias is the issue''': In truth, Austrian Economics (especially as promulgated by the more hard core libertarians), as well as related BLPs of a dozen plus economists, has been a battle ground since September 2012 when User:SPECIFICO started editing and even more so since April 2013 when User:Steeletrap started editing. Steeletrap has labeled Austrians who associated with the Mises Institute as "disreputable" and compared them to Scientologists; User:SPECIFICO has compared the "Mises gang" to "Multi-level marketing/vitamin supplement schemes". (See of full quotes and even more details at ].) Steeletrap has referred to SPECIFICO as a "colleague" and "collaborator". (Both state they have (SPECIFICO) or are working on (STEELETRAP) relevant academic degrees.) User:MilesMoney, who started editing July 2013, immediately jumped into many of the same articles and became an intense colleague/collaborator of SPECIFICO and Steeletrap. | |||
| * ] notified Valentinianus on 1/18 that they were making inappropriate edits in violation of RUSUKR and was violating ] as well . Valentinianus replied that asking for a rename and calling for a subsequent rename vote were edit requests . | |||
| These editors use the fact that many articles have been sourced with too many primary sources as an excuse to search out and add overwhelmingly negative and inflammatory secondary source material. However, they challenge neutral and positive information from other secondary sources with nonsense rationales which one must discuss and often bring to noticeboards, over and over again - ''a huge disincentive to constructive editing''. (See related April to August discussions on the ] and ] talk pages). Also they misuse the article on links called ], as well as ''off-Misplaced Pages'' interpretations of the concept, as a means of sabotaging perfectly good WP:RS information from academics who have even the loosest of affiliations with the Mises Institute. ].) | |||
| ''After'' that reply to Isabelle Belato (so that there is no question Valentinianus is aware of the latest warning), Valentinianus made five additional edits to ]. None were remotely along the line of constructive edit requests, the problematic ones being to argue that a source is a "Ukrainian shill site" , a project complaint about the infobox , and ] about the bad faith of the other editors on the talk page . | |||
| These editors' biased and disruptive edit warring has angered a number of editors who have either dropped out of Misplaced Pages or, like myself, stopped editing articles where those editors are active. Users:Srich and Binksternet, who like me have their own idiosyncratic libertarian-oriented viewpoints, have kept working to make the articles comply with Misplaced Pages policy and especially to end the biased trashing of BLPs. Until the last month or so the Misplaced Pages community has failed to deal with repeated complaints, even though it frequently has banned less biased editors for relatively minor infringements. | |||
| Users: Steeletrap and SPECIFICO have repeatedly inferred editors supporting NPOV articles are merely cultish apologists for these Austrians and libertarians. They take criticism of their editing bias as personal attacks, despite repeatedly being reminded of ]. Lately they, and MilesMoney, have repeated ad nauseam the charge of ] against me and other editors. They have engaged in harassing behaviors (see below). When brought to ANI they have responded overwhelmingly with unsupported allegations of others' bad behavior, while fiercely supporting each others' ad hominem attacks. | |||
| While in isolation, no individual edit is egregious, this editor has been warned several times about the limits of RUSUKR, and adding ], ] , and ] violations in this area to the number of ] violations, I believe an indefinite topic ban from ] topics, broadly construed, is appropriate. | |||
| Below is a list of WP:ANI (including 3rr) reports just since April 2013 which illustrate the problems. (Those by Specifico or Steeletrap against other editors are illustrative of points made above.) Many relevant ], ], ], ] and other noticeboard entries can be found as well. | |||
| ] (]) 19:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I've just blocked them for a week instead. If they're ignoring the ECR restrictions, they'll just ignore a topic ban; that's because the reason they're ignoring the ECR restrictions is either ] or the fact that they don't care, and either would apply to a topic ban as well. Perhaps they'll get the message after this block, or perhaps they won't at which point we can look at further sanctions (which, let's face it, is likely to be an indef). ] 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], April 30, 2013. | |||
| *Just noting that the prior block before this was a sockpuppetry block, which I lifted as I found their explanation of how they came to make their edits plausible. The further editing since the unblock as outlined in the block actioned by Black Kite seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], May 24, 2013. | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| *], May 27, 2013. | |||
| *Are we looking at the same editor, ]? Rosguill never unblocked this editor but Beeblebrox did back in December. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], May 29, 2013. | |||
| ::There's a few comments here that seem muldly disconnected from exactly what happened previous to this, but probably not to the point whee it changes the math on this latest block. ] ] 02:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], June 2, 2012. | |||
| ::It appears I was unclear. I was quoting Rosguill's reminder about RUSUKR in the conversation ''about'' a possible unblock . My point wasn't about the block itself, but that the editor received an additional warning about their edits in that area. I missed including that specific diff. ] (]) 10:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *] (which was getting a sympathetic response til unsupported counter charges started flying), June 29, 2013. | |||
| ::: ] (]) 11:35, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], leads admin to warn Steeletrap against allegations unsupported by evidence, and to warn Carolmooredc on losing her temper, which she admitted she had, July 27, 2013. | |||
| *], August 1, 2013. | |||
| *], September 20, 2013. | |||
| *], September 20, 2013. | |||
| *], Sept 23, 2013. | |||
| *], September 24, 2013. | |||
| *], September 29, 2013. | |||
| *], October 16, 2013. | |||
| == User talk page access, Wiseguy012 == | |||
| At what point does Misplaced Pages start dealing with such ]? When does it start looking at evidence of <u>] editing in possible ] relationships?</u> ''I believe Steeletrap, SPECIFICO and MilesMoney should be topic banned from all Austrian economics (and libertarianism-related) articles, especially Biographies of living or dead individuals.'' In the interim, <u>1rr should be applied</u> to as many of these affected articles as possible. '''] ''' 05:09, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result=I'm just going to close this. If Wiseguy012 returns and continues to rant or issues personal attacks, please return to ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Blocked user ] is using their talk page only for the purpose of continuing the rant that they got blocked for at ] and that they continued there as a sock account, {{noping|Friend0113}}, which is also now blocked. See . Revoke user talk page access? ] (]) 01:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello, ], | |||
| :There is no ] account. Did you mean someone else? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{noping|Wiseguy012}}, lower g. ] (]) 01:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks CMD. They are just ranting to themselves, not attacking anyone. An admin might come by, review this complaint and remove TPA but I don't find it egregious enough to act. Typically blocked editors can act like this right after they discover they've been blocked but then they move on and leave Misplaced Pages or they start creating sockpuppets and that's a bigger problem than a talk page rant. Too soon to tell right now. But it doesn't seem ANI-worthy to me. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The things some people decide to get mad about.... What they posted on the talk page was a copyright violation in its entirety, so that's gone, and I've warned them for that and let them know further disruption of any kind will cause them to lose talk page access. ] ] 01:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sorry about the G, and thanks for the guidance about the talk page access. ] (]) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Still misuse of talk page for spamming. ] 07:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::That content was posted hours ago and was similar to what was reported here in the complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Caste-based disruption == | |||
| - Hey {{ping|Carolmooredc}} I just looked back at the details of your list. How are my AN comments on Srich's ''Requests for Closure'' called complaints by him about my behavior? Either you don't know what's in your own list, or you're deliberately trying to mislead readers here who don't know -- or have the time -- to check every word you write to see whether it happens to be true. Shame on you. And how foolish for you to expose yourself in such a way in view of the ANI community -- yet another time. You should show the community some honesty and strike through your false denigration of me (and Srich) and any other misstatements in your messages here. ]] 04:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|HistorianAlferedo}} has engaged in contentious ] style editing in the ] related sanctioned topic area for quite sometime now. The user being repeatedly warned and clearly aware of these sanctions (evident from the removal of warning notices on their talk page) shows no signs of desisting. The editing pattern follows a faux concern of caste promotion by removing genuine well-sourced and known information all the while engaging in ] POV in multiple articles. That the editor isn't new is also evident from the fact that they can handedly cite obscure policies such as ] (of course incorrectly and disingenously). Lisiting some particuarly egregious edits: | |||
| :Do not insert inside others postings! Moved yours down. Reading those one can see that there is a tenditious debate going on. So I added Debate to vs. to clarify that. '''] ''' 05:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *, , , : deliberate insertion of incorrect wikilinks and false removals to obscure that the empresses were Rajput princesses | |||
| *: clearly falsifying an acronym (note the insertion of a dubious reference which nonetheless has nothing to do with the article subject) | |||
| *, , , , : POV caste-based insertions | |||
| *, : POV caste-based removals | |||
| This only a fraction of the tendentious edits in the user's topic warrior style editing related to Indian history and social groups. Not to mention the insertion of multiple non-RS refs when it suits the preferred POV while claiming to remove them in other articles. Considering the history, ediitng restrictions should follow in the form of a ] t-ban or a general one till the user can show that they are not going to be in violation of enwiki policies anymore (all the more necessary considering the IP socking , ). Bringing this to ANI on advice of the editor themselves: . ] (]) 11:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Carol, I agree with your general characterizations except that I am not the holder of "idiosyncratic libertarian-oriented viewpoints" unless classic American liberal viewpoints (such as strong government involvement in social programs) are now considered libertarian (which is not the case.) The only reason I'm involved at these articles is that I was told there was POV-warring in action, and when I went to decide for myself I saw that the report was correct. I don't like POV warriors on Misplaced Pages; I think the NPOV policy is what makes the whole encyclopedia so valuable. ] (]) 05:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :], you MUST notify the editor that you have posted this complaint. Please do so. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Binksternet, Thanks for clarification. '''] ''' 12:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{done}} ] (]) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : Carol, I am only "biased" against the Mises Institute in the same sense a biologist is biased against creationism. They reject the scientific method in their models yet purport to be social scientists. The Mises scholars openly and honestly concede their fringe status. Hans Hoppe concedes that LvMI is regarded as dogmatic and pseudo-scientific by mainstream economists. Writes Hoppe, "It is this assessment of economics as an a priori science ... which distinguishes Misesians, from all other current economic schools. All the others conceive of economics as an empirical science, as a science like physics, which develops hypotheses that require continual empirical testing. ''And they all regard as dogmatic and unscientific Mises's view''." () | |||
| ::Actually i was only editing and adding new information along with genuine citations. I had no motive for any sort of vandalism or anything else. Based on the knowledge about various topics of Indian history i was just trying to contribute in a positive way. Moreover some of the allegations by user Gotitbro are totally irrelevant, i’m not an indian but interested in the topics related to Indian history. New editors should be supported by the old ones and not demotivated with false allegations. Alright, if the old editors don’t want the new ones to contribute to[REDACTED] even in a good way then i’ll definitely even delete my account from wikipedia. Thank you ] (]) 08:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : We have to accurately represent the views of mainstream sources on Misplaced Pages, even if those paint a negative picture of Mises Institute thinkers. If you can find mainstream economics RS praising LvMI fellows, please add it to the article. However, I will continue to object to using primary sources and connected fringe secondary sources (i.e. other Mises fellows) to source the contributions of Mises scholars to economics. ] (]) 14:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::], I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: One example makes it clear how ''false and dishonest'' this response is. See Rothbard archive section on ] about Steeletrap's removal of neutral sourced info because SPECIFICO and STEELETRAP were trying to downgrade Rothbard from even being notable as an economist of the Austrian School and to remove the economist info box. | |||
| ::::Okay @]. Please have a look at pages: ] and ] I added relevant information along with scholarly work sources but user:@] just reverted all the changes without even looking at the correct citations. That’s why i thought now i won’t edit and visit[REDACTED] as few users here just try to show off their ranks, there are good wikipedians and administrators too but a few of them are doing this with the new contributors. Thank you ] (]) 15:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::When there is a massive fight over something that absurdly biased, it can be quite discouraging to try to add the other WP:RS info one has on Rothbard and that was about the time I gave up. ''I still have a mass of NPOV/WP:RS info on my harddrive,'' but why bother if getting into the article a couple sentences ''that don't trash Rothbard'' (or the other subjects of other articles) lead to a massive talk page discussion and often visit to noticeboard(s) that takes 3 to 5 hours of fruitless discussion?? (Something I'd already gone through in ].) That's called disruptive POV editing and that's what Steeletrap especially, but SPECIFICO and MilesMoney as well, engage in. Others can read just how slimy the ] article is, much of the "dirt" inserted by Steeletrap, but supported by SPECIFICO/MilesMoney to see the editor doesn't care much about creating an NPOV encyclopedia. '''] ''' 18:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Carol, those "seven references" were deleted accidentally when I was trying to remove the word "economist" from the lede. I restored them immediately when the error is pointed out to me, and they have for months remained in the current article without objection. However, all the sources do is call Rothbard an "economist"; they do not describe his substantive work as an economist. Again, instead of making erroneous accusations which you will later have to correct (as you have ended up doing several times in the last month), you should try to improve the article by adding mainstream refs describing rothbard's substantive contributions to econ. ] (]) 18:33, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: This is not true. In reply to my complaint about ] you wrote : '' I disagree. ] is not characterized as a "historian", despite teaching history and having a Ph.D, because he is not notable for work as a historian. Rothbard is not notable as an "economist" and should not be described as such in the lede. he is notable as a (fringe) political theorist and activist. Like Newt (for some time) with respect to history, economics is how Murray made a living, and (again like newt) the Ph.D a credential Murray cited to boost his credibility. The compromise text indicates that Murray had a Ph.D in econ and taught in Brooklyn and Vegas. Mentioning him as an "economist" of the "Austrian school" seems superfluous and subjective.'' Sounds like you wanted those seven refs out, doesn't it? '''] ''' 00:32, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::We have long had problems around Austrian economics. This is just a recent intensification. I wouldn't be surprised if it went to Arbcom. ] (]) 11:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == On-wiki hounding, off-wiki soliciting, and severe stalking by ] == | |||
| :::Indeed - see ] for some of the history around these articles. There have been strident POV pushers advocating the Austrian view and the Mises institute for a really long time. <b><font color="darkred">]</font></b> <font color="black">(])</font> 13:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The list of Karmaisking socks is very revealing, especially when one scrutinizes the various usernames involved. - ]] 14:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{Insert] Pro-Austrian Karmaisking was very active 4 or 5 years ago, as was anarcho-capitalist ] (who I always thought was the same person, but certainly had same interests and modus operandi). Until an influx of socks recently in the Rothbard article, I haven't seen much evidence of him the last couple years. But that was one or two persons operating as obvious Socks. I'm sure these are three different editors working closely together because of their differing styles. '''] ''' 17:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::: While ARBCOM is the court of last resort, I agree with you, ]. I've seen this particular feud spill over to a variety of noticeboards and when disputes are ideological in nature, compromise and consensus are not even goals for many participants. They seem to be all-of-nothing debates. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 17:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Complaints have been lodged by several editors at multiple noticeboards and WP:ANI multiple times. Admins do nothing. And now people are talking about taking the whole subject area to arbitration! Why do we even have an NPOV policy if admins can't even comment on obvious POV editing and only on behavior issues, which the offending editors always wiggle out of by making false and exaggerated claims against the complainants? I have a feeling ArbCom would not take this case and the problems would go on and on. I would be delighted if the whole area was put under 1RR, but Admins ''actually dealing with'' disruptive editors would save a lot of time and energy. '''] ''' 18:17, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::<s> Well, if by some convolution you can get an Editor labeled as holding a "fringe" point of view, they are then treated as if they are a troll and are likely to receive an indefinite block. It takes a bit of legwork and it isn't ethical but it sure seems to be an effective and quick way to get rid of the opposition. You only need one Admin to agree with you and it's faster than waiting for ARBCOM to render a verdict. But I don't think it's fair or justifiable and it misuses WP policy statements to achieve a certain result. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</s> | |||
| :::::: I apologize for my ] remark. I'm very frustrated with the variable way that different Editors are treated on WP. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:40, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::FYI, assuming you were replying directly to my comment above, my complaint is editors who have such a strong negative POV ''against'' a topic and/or individuals related to it that they constantly search out and insert only the most negative information, put the most negative spin on it, and fight attempts to put in NPOV material from equal or better sources with absurd rationales for deletion. A few of us have come here and to various noticeboards over and over again and this issue has not been dealt with. The question from an uninvolved editor of how to deal with the ensuing edit warring started this thread. Those trying to remove or otherwise deal with this type of POV disruption are constantly reverted by the disruptors. I added a lot of diffs to illustrate the problem. By the way, ] would be interesting as mentioned by Mark Miller, but I'm too burnt out on these editors to initiate it myself. Certainly better than going to arbitration right off the bat. '''] ''' 16:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Yeah, Arbcom will almost always sanction the real disruptive users, but there's often a decent amount of "collateral damage" done to other parties, as well. ] (]) 18:28, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: The main problem with DR and mediation, as I understand it, is that they are non-binding. You can go through the whole process and if you disagree with the results, there is no penalty from disregarding the whole proceedings. I think these methods can definitely help if all parties are more interested in resolving a dispute than in being right. But on many contentious topics, there is usually a "my way or no way" attitude. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:02, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I wanted to let go this and move on, but considering my uncertain future with {{u|SerChevalerie}}, I had to take this to ANI. | |||
| ::::::::Let's tell the truth here, Carolmooredc. The only problem you illustrated with your diffs was that you chewed up a huge amount of WP resources with your long list of hostile ad hominem noticeboard complaints, none of which WP found to have any merit. A secondary problem is that you continue to cite these failed attacks as if they were vindication of your current round of ''ad hominem'' noisemaking. I greatly respected your voluntary withdrawal from the articles that have frustrated you recently, and I hope that you will resume your vacation if the environment here is too upsetting for you. While you've been hanging out on this ANI, good progress has been made with constructive edits at the vMI article. ]] 19:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: It's mind-boggling that you seem to think that an Editor who is burned out from constant arguing and so just quits the discussion is a good result. The goal is not to drive away those who believe differently from yourself or "wear them down". When Misplaced Pages content is determined by the "last Editor standing" mentality, it's really a sign that there is something wrong with the project. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: Dear Liz. I didn't say it was good that she got so upset that she behaved destructively and therefore improved things by leaving. In fact I made it clear that IF she felt so frustrated it was good for her to take a breather. I consider your message to me uncivil, maybe a PA, and I ask you to do the right thing and retract it, so all the Admins watching this page can see you're a good egg. Thanks. ]] 20:11, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Worn down is an apt descriptor for a long list of issues that easily can be reviewed at talk pages of ], ], ], among others. Any experienced editors easily can see what was going on. Liz has nothing to apologize for - and WP:ANI is the kind of place such issues, generally and specifically, are allowed to be freely discussed. (Including noting that "fringe" can be just another way people who have different viewpoints held by one set of academics can try to dismiss those subjects of articles who challenge them and editors who try to keep articles NPOV.) '''] ''' 23:39, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::: Carol, Mises scholars ''acknowledge they are fringe''; they proudly reject mainstream theory and the scientific method. So this isn't a mater of "some academics" going after others out of vindictiveness. Treating fringe sources differently than mainstream sources in non-negotiable. Fringe views can be "right" once in a blue moon, but we have to abide by policy whether or not you think Rothbard's views are sound. ] (]) 00:57, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Please support such allegations with quotes. '''] ''' 19:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::: Prominent contemporary Misesian and LvMI Distinguished Fellow Hans-Hermann Hoppe, who I have quoted a bazillion times in this regard, says "It is this assessment of economics as an a priori science ... which distinguishes Misesians, from all other current economic schools. All the others conceive of economics as an empirical science, as a science like physics, which develops hypotheses that require continual empirical testing. ''And they all regard as dogmatic and unscientific Mises's view''." () Again, you can believe they're "right" and everyone else wrong, but we go off of mainstream sources on wikipedia, and are required to treat fringe sources differently. ] (]) 20:46, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::I don't see this one individual using the word "fringe" but I do see you making a huge leap from one person's statement to characterizing a lot of others as having the exact same position and labeling it a "fringe" one. Sounds like original research to me. '''] ''' 01:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}Good evening, {{ping|Carolmooredc}}. While you're here, I left you a message below, would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks. ]] 01:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| To give a little background of the editing behavioural problems with the above mentioned editor, it started around late June 2024 when I made this edit . This was followed by his immediate reverts and significant edits . I had no problem with this, as this article was something wherein a third party editor had requested to expand it in a local Misplaced Pages WhatsApp group we were part of. | |||
| === Proposal, general sanctions === | |||
| Given the above discussion, the observation arbcom cases often end up imposing ] sanctions on affected area, and the ability of the community to do functionally the same thing (with a lot less bureaucratic pixelwork). I propose: | |||
| *Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working on a page within the topic of Austrian Economics, if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, ], or the ]. | |||
| Both me and SerChevalerie were part of this WhatsApp group of Wikipedians from ]. Having known each other online for over two years, and we shared the same native state. The problems arrived when he got back active on Misplaced Pages after a break of roughly 4 years and went on serious stalking my edits, the page I contributed, but mainly the pages that I created. As am In ] and I love creating articles, but this was something he went overly critical on. | |||
| (Wording is lifted from the MMA sanctions at ]). <small>]</small> 20:30, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| From June to August 2024, most of the edits SerChevalerie made were pertaining to the articles that I significantly worked on or created. During this, I was much subject to ] on major of the articles I created such as ], you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just ], arguing by citing essays like ] instead of finding a resolution or just ]. It was until I finally took the decision to take it to ] we reached a consensus after several days of discussion. | |||
| *'''Support''' I think this is definitely merited. ] (]) 20:49, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' ] (]) 20:53, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' The above complaints have been heavy on rhetoric but remarkably thin on evidence. Administrators are our peers; they, like us, are subject to contextual biases and incompetencies. This is a very dangerous power to invest them with, and much better evidence than the vague unspecific charges made by previous users is needed to support it. The fact that the admins above -- including one, ], who previously falsely declared ] a "sockpuppet" on the basis of no hard evidence (Adj's claim that was dismissed, but exacted a heavy tole on Miles' reputation) -- just "take his word for it" above is indicative of the risks of arbitrary and capricious admin conduct. ] (]) 22:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Two thoughts: 1. If the SS SPI is as false and baseless as you say it is, people will see right through it and it won't hurt your friend's reputation. 2. If, on the other hand, it is damaging to MilesMoney's reputation, then might I suggest that continuing to bring it up in public venues like ANI isn't doing Miles any favors. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 16:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::But thanks to Steeletrap for ] so editors can be aware for future reference. Editors should not be attacked for bringing up well documented suspicions of Sock puppetry, even if it does not sufficiently pass the ] as the closing admin said. It's definitely a check on such behavior if it is in fact true. '''] ''' 17:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I have little familiarity with this rubric, or why it appears to have been implemented in a short list of articles. Wouldn't it be better to open a separate thread about this and to notify at least the talk page of every article which would be affected. This seems like a big decision for us to make just on the occasion of having assembled here to discuss a much narrower issue of 1RR/Protection on a single article. I recommend opening a separate thread if you feel strongly about pursuing this idea. ]] 21:03, 19 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose added ]] 22:21, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' At first look, MMA Sanctions sounds like Martial Law. Frankly, I don't see more than one or two Admins who have shown any familiarity with these articles or the behavioral issues which might be identified. Let's see some more Admin involvement in a constructive mode (I am pleased to say that we've seen some very recently -- thanks.) If there's a problem here, the solution is not to grant more power to the Admins, it's to benefit from more attention and involvement from/by them. By the time 1RR or MMA are enforced, there's going to be a much larger use of scarce Admin time and effort than there would be from occasional oversight and guidance, in my opinion. ]] 22:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Over the course of some 30 articles that I created from June to August 2024, SerChevalerie has made edits which often times were seen as annoying and major stalking behaviour. He also likes to stay at the "top of the order" constantly as you can on articles such as ] as per his latest "copyedit". During this period of two months almost entirely of his edits he has made were only pertaining to my articles. | |||
| *'''Strongly Oppose''' I encountered this policy on ], where it did absolutely no good at all. It won't work here, either, and the harmful effects will only make things worse. Absolutely terrible idea. ] (]) 22:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| When I had nominated his article ] for SD, he then tried to solicit and I felt harrassed after he took his arguments to ]. Even after saying I don't want to discus this off-wiki he forced it upon me by confronting me in a group of 200-250 Wikipedians and having his arguments posted there. This is the same whatsapp group we were part of. And I have the relevant evidence with me. | |||
| *'''Support''' Assuming it’s been done elsewhere before and worked. Otherwise maybe fast track to ArbCom. In either case, the issues and policy violations are often clear enough that once brought to the appropriate noticeboard any truly neutral admin who bothers to take ten minutes to review them will know what proper action to take. '''] ''' 00:05, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Observation''' In the context of these articles about ] it is interesting to see which editors prefer to impose increased hierarchical authority and which editors prefer to bolster endogenous collaberation. ]] 00:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::The pattern is easily explained: those who have failed to be convincing are the ones who want to bring in authorities to override their opponents. ] (]) 01:14, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support'''. Seems to be an entirely sensible proposal. Let's leave ArbCom as the ''last'' resort, which is where it is always supposed to be. - ] (]) 01:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''@Sitush''' - To oppose this proposal is ''not'' to favor arbcom. Opposing this is to reject the statist authoritarian solution of general sanctions. ]] 01:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. NE Ent, that is a great suggestion. I don't think anyone working neutrally on the encyclopedia will object to what is presented as a very fair but fairly quick form of behavior management. Who would object to an administrator warning an editor then blocking that editor if the disruptive behavior continues? It's a good proposal. ] (]) 02:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Was that intended to be a rhetorical question? I ask, because a few of us already object and for good reason. ] (]) 02:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' The level of discourse recently in regard to myriad disagreements about the ] include responses like: | |||
| :* | |||
| :* | |||
| :* | |||
| :* | |||
| :Edit summaries refer to other edits as , and promote a battleground mentality (e.g. ). Edit-warring has been going on daily by many of the editors involved in this discussion. To their credit, the some recent discussions like ] and ] seem fairly productive. But given the quality of editing behavior, I have very little faith that the involved editors can work things out on most issues on this or other articles via consensus-building or even through ]. ]] 02:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''As a libertarian''', {{reply to|I JethroBT}}, I distrust increasing the power and privilege of central authority at the expense of local autonomy. I have rarely seen WP Admins step into these flare-ups -- for example when Carolmooredc was doing her round-the-world-tour of Noticeboards she proudly cites above -- and administer discipline or even offer effective guidance. Otherwise we would not see her and Binksternet continue their personal attacks and equivocations here in the current thread. It's a sad commentary on due process here when they feel free to display such behavior with impunity right here in the most conspicuous place where Admins are watching. Why should we now believe that the same Admins who could have nipped this behavior in the bud are the ones to whom we should give this extraordinary governmental power, akin to Martial Law? Moreover, I'll repeat the following until I hear some responses on the point: If such sanctions were to be imposed on an entire category of related articles, the discussion of that decision must be announced to all the affected articles in the category. Otherwise we have the central authority taking this extraordinary prerogative without consulting the affected parties. That should concern not only us libertarians but all editors who care about open process and representative decision-making. ]] 03:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{replyto|SPECIFICO}} Contacting editors on the relevant articles doesn't sound unreasonable to me, given the broad nature of the sanctions, though putting a notice on all 49 articles is probably a bit much. Are there any objections if I or others post something like the following on the talk pages of some of the more highly-watched articles?: | |||
| ::::''You are invited to comment on discussion occurring on ] over the implementation of discretionary sanctions across articles related to Austrian Economics.'' | |||
| :::I think your point about whether to defer to local autonomy in matters of consensus-building/article maintenance as opposed to granting it to an authority is a fair concern, and I think letting others look into this situation should be encouraged. However, I am personally less inclined to support that idea when it's clear the same pattern of interaction, accusations, and general pettiness has repeatedly emerged amongst the local autonomy across similar topics. ]] 04:24, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Even in arbitration cases like ], templates about the arbitration decision are placed on articles only by editors as they choose to do so, and some have gone for a couple years without them ''until a problem arises'' and someone thinks to put one on. I think that could be applied here as well in this more informal case, with people putting a to-be-created standard template on articles having or likely to have a problem, as they so choose. If it is ''not'' a 1rr situation, the standard template for the top of the talk page should be sufficient. There is no need to run around and tell editors, though if they come to the page and start creating problems they should be reminded to read the templates on the top of the page. '''] ''' 05:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - I reviewed how the Standard Discretionary Sanctions at ] went and concluded that they were effective and beneficial. Several of the same players that were there are now in this area too and so there's good reason to expect the same benefit. (I did wonder, "Can we do this??", and of course the answer is, "Yes per ]/] we can do whatever we determine there is consensus to do.") My only '''quibble''' is whether "Sanctions may be appealed to ... <u>the ]</u>" should be in the wording{{emdash}}if ArbCom didn't actually enact the SDS at this article, how would an appeal to them be in their jurisdiction? I think we'd either need to make sure they'll agree to take these sorts of appeals, or remove them from the list of appeal routes. Otherwise I think this will be helpful. <code>]]</code> 03:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::'''@Zad68''' - Unlike at Ayn Rand, the sanctions proposed here would affect roughly 50 articles. How do you justify proposing such a step without even notifying the talk pages or active editors on 49 of those articles. It's like taxation without representation. It is tyranny. ]] 03:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::You say "effective", I say "heavy-handed", "chilling" and "generally counterproductive". The article is effectively frozen. It took days, and admin intervention, just to remove some nonsense that was inserted. That's what happens when you point guns at everyone: nobody moves. Now magnify that by 50 and you have a complete disaster. ] (]) 03:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::SPECIFICO and MilesMoney really are over-dramatizing of the "tyranny" of the proposal here, and by two editors highly involved in the various Austrian disputes. While obviously some of these articles will be looked at immediately because of current issues still on noticeboards, in general admins tend to wander over only if an issue is brought to a noticeboard or WP:ANI/3rr, or an editor asks one individually to take a look. We don't have bands of roving admins trolling for bad behavior to correct. '''] ''' 05:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::With all due respect, these sanctions only get in the way of editors who are actively working to improve articles. This does not describe you, at least not in regard to the articles I edit, so I'm not surprised that you don't feel in any way encumbered. | |||
| :::::I would appreciate it, though, if you recognized these differences in our circumstances and therefore didn't overgeneralize from your personal experiences or trivialize mine. Lots of things look better from the outside than the inside. ] (]) 14:35, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's my understanding of ] that any sanctions on English Misplaced Pages is appealable to them, so the proposed general sanction statement is simply acknowledging that policy rathering than creating it. In other words, any sanctions would be appealable to the committee, regardless of whether the sanctions statement said that or not. <small>]</small> 11:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hello {{ping|NE Ent}}. I've just looked up the articles which are in the categories included in your proposal -- Paleo-libertarianism, Austrian Economics, Libertarian Organizations, Libertarian publications, etc. There are hundreds. That means there are at least 1000 involved editors, even allowing for duplication across articles. I'd like to hear why you think the decision to impose G.S. on so many articles should be made by this group on this board. Frankly I'd be surprised if this group actually has the authority to do so. Have you researched that? Thanks. {{unsigned|date=October 2013}} | |||
| ::::The number of affected articles is a red herring. If the subject area is problematic (which it is) then some sort of mechanism needs to be put into place, despite the squeals of opposition that not surprisingly all seem to be emanating from one "side" of this subject area. The general sanctions imposed on Indian castes affected far more articles and editors than this proposal will ever likely do. - ] (]) 18:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Like I said, even if all those articles were the ones proposed (and I'm not sure if it's that broad), the to-be-created template only needs to be put on those where there really is a problem and admin attention needed and editors only warned if they start violating policy. '''] ''' 19:23, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}{{ping|Carolmooredc}}, please name the articles to which the GS would apply or the list of names which you endorse. I hope it goes without saying that they will only be in effect in articles on which there's a template. If you name which articles you propose to list, then we can notify the editors of those articles to get their input. Otherwise, this will be viewed as a power-grab by authoritarian central goverment without notice or recourse and will undermine the legitimacy of WP community governance. As a libertarian I find it alarming the willingness with which a small group here is willing to consider unilaterally abridging the activities of others. Please state which articles you endorse placing under GS. Thanks. ]] 22:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Ask the originator what his/her thoughts are and others who've been involved in broad areas which have ''not'' been defined by ArbCom how that works. '''] ''' 01:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hello Carolmooredc. I'm not understanding you. I have been asking those who support General Sanctions to specify which articles those sanctions would apply to. If it's more than just Mises.org, I also have asked whether they feel comfortable not inviting the involved editors on those articles to participate in this discussion. I know you have a lot of experience here and tend to have strong opinions, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, if you'd care to share them. ]] 01:28, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::As I've said or inferred elsewhere, but some will badger others...Whatever articles in the topic area need it, as determined by editors. IMHO, more specifically, whatever ones you and Steeletrap have been working on in this area where people detect and protest biased, WP:Undue and even vitriolic editing meant only to discredit the individual/institution in question. '''] ''' 05:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| SerChevalerie also has undisclosed COI with articles such creating and editing his grandfather's article significantly ] and a suspected COI paid editing on article like ]. I have relevant evidence to support this claim. You can also check the latter's talk page where he claims that he "recreated" entirely on the article after it had some issues when it was created, see | |||
| *'''Support''' - This seems to be a very sane proposal to bring some stability to these articles, and it will not stand in the way of collegial editing which has been in short supply in this topic area. Article protection has not worked, so this would seem to be utile alternative. On a tangential note, the next editor that insinuates that another editor is incompetent should be roundly sanctioned. Competence is not the same as subject matter expertise, nor should it be used to shamefully disparage editors who have made substantial, quality contributions in a diverse range of topics. - ]] 19:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| He also seems to want a Misplaced Pages article on himself by using his connections and other Wikipedians to help him feature on the news (or possibly paid news) see here {{redacted}}. I find this featured article on him rather suspicious as it was published when SerChevalerie barely returned back to editing after 4 years. | |||
| * '''REQUEST FOR INFORMATION''' This question is addressed to OP for this section and those who '''Support''' the proposed GS. Please state which WP articles your proposal would place under GS? They could be indicated either by a list of titles or a list of categories. To my mind, this proposal, as stated, is either incompletely defined or extraordinarily far-reaching. As a libertarian, I am reminded of the prior discussions of the Patriot act and the US invasion of Iraq in the last decade. Ill-defined discussion and partial or incorrect information led to a precipitous increase in governmental authority and action. Let's understand exactly what is on the table here. Could OP of this proposal or one if its supporters please define the scope of the GS -- explicitly and unambiguously. If it were only to apply to, say Mises Institute, Rothbard, and 4H, that is a much more tractable decision than if we are talking about the hundreds of articles directly related to Austrian economics, publications, scholars, institutions, and to paleo-libertarian, anarcho-capitalist and other right-libertarians. Thanks. I think that a specific proposal will help clarify this discussion. ]] 21:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::There is nothing unusual in sanctions covering a generally defined set of pages -- often sanctions are for "X and related pages", sometimes with "broadly construed" thrown in to show that the scope is ''not'' narrow. ] and all its sub-categories combined appear to have around 120 articles, so it isn't a very big slice of the wiki overall. If an editor engages in problematic behavior on one of the affected pages and is warned for it, they ought to take the hint and avoid that behavior in general. Edit warring, personal attacks, etc., are unacceptable regardless of the level of enforcement. --] (]) 16:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strongly Oppose''' "...any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process..." is a completely vague criteria for banning an Editor or Admin. It's what WP calls "weasel words". It could simply mean if someone raises objections and doesn't immediately back down, they could feasibly be blocked. I also these DS applied unfairly to users who challenge mainstream views. DS shouldn't be used to silence minority viewpoints, whether or not they are considered "fringe". | |||
| : The best part of this statement is that "uninvolved administrators" should be taking action. If this statement is adopted, that should be highlighted. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 22:27, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Addressing some questions in the above: Yes, we can do this, see table of ]. Given this page has around watchers, this is hardly a ''dead of night covert operation.'' As to which articles constitute "Austrian Economics" -- I don't know and I don't care. (The usual ArbCom weasel words are "broadly construed." ) The simple matter is there are {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}} active users on Misplaced Pages, and most of them show sufficient maturity and compromise to work things out. Frequently there will be individual editors who don't "get" the wiki way and have to be admin sanctioned, and occasionally things get heated among a group of editors sufficiently that community input / admin help is appropriate. But when the same area keeps hitting the ] boards over and over (as documented above), the standard response is some sort of discretionary sanctions, whether community or committee imposed. Admin / dispute resolution volunteer time is a limited resource, and this maximizes it's effectiveness.<small>]</small> 02:11, 21 October 2013 (UTC)<br> | |||
| :'''{{ping|NE Ent}}''' -- I appreciate your taking the time to reply. I would differ with you on one point. The list of failed noticeboard complaints cited by User:Carolmooredc above only illustrates her own frustration and inability to accept the reasoned views of other editors she encounters on certain subjects. Those threads were all evaluated by the community and her complaints were rejected, even as her tone became more strident and her statements less documented. I respect your good faith effort to do the right thing here, but I would hope you'd agree with me that it's important that, as the one who made a far-reaching proposal, you also feel a responsibility to familiarize yourself with the facts and history of these specific articles and conflicts. It can't be good policy to apply a "standard response" to every situation without taking a closer look. Most importantly, despite the truly outrageous behavior of a very small number of editors on these articles over the years, they have continued to improve. Dramatically so in the past year, in fact. Frankly, as I've said before, I have see only a few fine Admins who have stepped in and offered constructive input or guidance in these articles. It's hard for me, as a libertarian, to infer that we should centralize more power in the hands of those who have not shown very much interest or commitment in this area to date. I hope you will take the time to review the history of the Mises Institute, Austrian School, or Rothbard articles over the past year or two. Thanks. ]] 02:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC) <br> | |||
| '''RE: Definite support for Request for Arbitration''': .NE Ent, thanks for further comments. But it seems that now that Liz, an uninvolved editor, (and others?) have opposed the proposal, we must consider if WP:ANI taking over an ArbCom is unprecedented. The two specific examples mentioned herein are ] and evidently an Arbitration regarding Indian castes. (I couldn’t find it myself.) However, all the support for some sort of oversight/sanctions here would encourage ArbCom to take seriously an Arbitration Request to deal with the issues in the articles in question, broadly construed. (Or narrowly to those which certain editors decree are so fringe NPOV doesn’t apply any more?) ] more carefully which has ample examples of ANI imposing general sanctions.] '''] ''' 02:28, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :'''THANKS CAROL''' - Glad to see you now agree with my point that this ANI is not empowered to place General Sanctions. I am so sad that you couldn't hear it when I said it repeatedly above and wouldn't even think about it until you heard it from somebody else. I'm also bewildered that nobody else here -- longtime editors or Admins -- agreed with Liz and me until your awakening. This is an immediate example of the danger of giving excessive authority to well-meaning but sometimes-fallible governing entities. ]] 02:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm only stating problems, not changing my mind that ''some sort of general sanction'' might be one way to deal with the issue. However, as I stated in my listing above, the problem is that two/three editors constantly work to discredit the ones they don’t like through their edits and frustrate the efforts of other editors to counter their bias by removing the three two/three editors biased material or putting in neutral information. I think at least two of them should be topic banned by an editor now and there would be no need to go to ArbCom. '''] ''' 05:07, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Specifico/Carolmooredc, {{user|Liz}} has opposed some of the wording but not, it seems, the underlying principle. And you are wrong to suggest that the community lacks the power to establish sanctions via ANI. - ] (]) 10:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I know ANI can impose Sanctions on individuals. I just haven't seen it done on a broad swath of articles and was looking for examples. Again, why I have not dropped support, just emphasized ArbCom. MY APOLOGIES for not reading ] more carefully. I see ANI imposed sanctions on a range of articles. So I agree it's time to close this with a determination of what to do...'''] ''' 12:08, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{ec}} See for one example. This all falls under ]. - ] (]) 12:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - because it would (in theory) enforce the ] cycle with which most editors involved in this topic area have generally managed to comply. Only those ] of collegial discussion (who have instead resorted to ad-hom rants, personal attacks, misquoting and bullying) should have anything to fear from the promise to sanction those who ''"repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages"'' (being collegial, voluntary editing in good faith, free of personal attacks). Institute it and enforce it with an iron fist with regard to ] and ] and this topic area will soon be free of its biggest problem. Then get back to work providing independent sources for those sometimes entirely unsourced, fan-club-written (or autobiographical) hagiographies that some have tried to "protect". ]] 03:41, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I would suggest that the biggest problem isn't behavior in the sense of rudeness, it's behavior in the form of ]. There are clear examples where a question is asked and satisfactorily answered, but the answer is ignored and an edit war or shouting match ensues. | |||
| ::This is not something any amount of admin threats or beatings can fix, because admins could only detect this if they first had a working knowledge of economics and a familiarity with the specifics of these issues. It's a dispute about content, so a deep understanding of the content is absolutely necessary. Anything short would result in injustices. Treating this content dispute as a behavioral problem will only make it one. ] (]) 04:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I know junior high school students who can identify bullying and harassment; that doesn't take an economics degree. I'm sure even our least experienced admins could handle it. Once those editors who don't understand the subject have been <u>forced</u> to discuss it (instead of attacking others) they'll either do so, refuse to do so or revert to attacking others and will be blocked. Then we can return to the broadly collegial effort and highly productive editing that saw a string of COI LvMI articles go from entirely unsourced or very-poorly-sourced to incredibly-well-sourced in a very short period of time before being "protected from attack" by clueless bullies. ]] 04:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Let's face it, some some individuals of various political leanings are terrified that the Ron Paul/Rand Paul etc libertarian wing of the Republicans will take the election in 2016 and they are doing their best to trash the Mises-related people who influence/associate with them in any fashion. They focus on trashing the articles of some who have shown bad judgement in shooting off their mouths in an abrasive fashion ("libertarian macho flash") and then make sure all the other articles emphasize the close relationship of other individuals to the individuals and groups in the most trashed articles. It's a typical "I don't have an argument so I'll trash them with name calling" strategy. Those of us who are disgusted by it - and especially because it is against the spirit of Misplaced Pages - have and/or will continue to fight back and thus problems will continue as long as these editors are allowed to edit these articles. '''] ''' 05:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::*], that comment has nothing to do with mine so I've out-dented it, but the irony and hypocrisy are staggering. Your entire ''modus operadi'' in this subject area for the past six months has been focused on trashing editors with name calling (or deliberate misquoting) for lack of a cohesive argument. I came here to ANI months ago to defend you and argue that your actions were those of a frustrated/confused editor acting in good faith. Oh, how I paid for my defence of you - bullied, attacked, deliberately misquoted and deliberately misinterpreted by you and all for suggesting that unsourced hagiographies deserved some independent sources. Feel free to be disgusted. ]] 06:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Carol, the articles SPECIFICO and I haven't "vandalized" are typically disgusting violations of WP:NPOV. Take the '''high quality''' (read: cult-approved) BLP for ] article, which is sourced to nothing other than fringe LvMI co-workers, and claims on the basis of no evidence that this Mises fellow "served a crucial role as a leading public intellectual." (The lead paragraph alone is enough to make any remotely neutral editor vomit.) | |||
| ::As to your conspiracy theories about politics, it strikes me as quite unlikely that the electoral prospects of the Ron/Rand Paul movement will be affected by whether Misplaced Pages forthrightly presents the fringe nature of Rothbardian "punishment" (read: torture) or "monetary" (read: 100% PURE GOLD BULLION) theory. It is already known that Ron Paul is an evolution denialist and a climate change denialist, so the fringe economics likely wouldn't scare off supporters, or come as a surprise to detractors. | |||
| ::Also, among politicians, the Misesian economics is hardly new to the Pauls. Ronald Reagan subscribed to the "Freeman" and the Foundation For Economic Education, and even publicly fetishized the gold standard. He just didn't implement any of this stuff because his (right-wing) economists told him: "Listen up, bozo: This stuff you're obsessed with is stupid, cultish, and has no evidence behind it." The same, mark my words, will happen if Rand Paul becomes President. He'll throw rhetorical red meat to the cult now and then, but he'll never implement the "freedom philosophy" because everyone (Right and Left) who has studied economics will tell him doing so would drive the economy into "free" fall. ] (]) 05:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::As I've said many times, it's one thing to clean up an article with issues you describe and add NPOV info, including critical info. It's something else to emphasize adding highly negative material in a WP:Undue fashion while frustrating others' attempts to add NPOV material. After fights on three articles where I tried to do so, I just gave up editing the ones the three editors in question work on. I can't help but speculate on reasons for this extreme animus, but I don't think it's related primarily to improving the encyclopedia. '''] ''' 12:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| When I had to quit Misplaced Pages for over 4 months due to my poor mental health because of him, he too wasn't very active on Misplaced Pages as he noticed I wasn't active anymore. You can check his edit history around the months of October and November this made me realise that SerChevalerie might have ] relating to my presence on Misplaced Pages itself. When I returned back to editing in early January this year, I made my first edit on the article ]. The next day he tries to repeat the same behaviour of stalking me and "staying on top" of the page. See . Please note that he didn't have any editing history on this page untill I edited it. | |||
| ::::<s>Stuck: This is going around and around and around ''with absolutely no progress'' because of so many side-issues. Many comments are simply about the topic of Austrian economics and not about editing. Other comments are simply about editor behavior. I suggest this be closed without further action</s>. -- – ] (]) 05:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC) Note: pseudo-admin stuck template removed. – ] (]) 15:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC) Some more useful commentary is popping up. Striking stuck remark. – ] (]) 18:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Please don't do this sort of pseudo-admin thing, Srich. I've left you a note on your talk. - ] (]) 10:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| A ] has been posted. – ] (]) 06:07, 21 October 2013 (UTC) I've asked that the ANRFC be closed as resolved. – ] (]) 18:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I disagree that this discussion is hopelessly un-close-able. In fact I think a careful reader can tell the difference between the outside commentators !voting on the appropriateness of the suggested sanctions, and the involved editors sidetracking the conversation here with the same sort of stuff happening at the article that the sanctions are intended to help fix. <code>]]</code> 12:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. I suspect this may end up at ArbCom anyway because several of the editors involved seem to have developed highly negative on-wiki relationships, which they pursue on their user talk pages, other users' talk pages, at ANI, etc. Clamping down on this topic alone probably won't stop that. But it is a reasonable step that covers one of the most disputed areas among them. --] (]) 16:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I still feel constantly watched by this editor everytime I am on Misplaced Pages. I want to propose to the community for a block on SerChevalerie or having placed ] on articles that I create so that he stops this behaviour. He also knows my real name and I don't want to get ] or ] by him as we both are from ], India. I'm afraid he might just get my residence address and does any harm. I just want to get rid of this issue and move on. ]<sup>2003</sup>(]) 11:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ====Sub-proposal: Require administrators who evaluate/sanction editors to be educated in economics==== | |||
| {{archivetop|status=Not happening|result=It's admin 101 that editors functioning as admins are not expected to be subject matter experts, ] closing <small>]</small> 02:16, 21 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
| *''' Support''' If the main proposal does pass, I believe ''administrators'' scrutinizing the LvMI related pages should have to have ''substantial education/expertise in economics'' (''specific'' self-description of one's educational/employment background in this regard would count as sufficient "proof" of this). Having an admin who doesn't know about economics evaluating the "neutrality" of these articles would be like me evaluating quantum mechanics related entries; said admin's judgments might as well be a product of "hunches" and tea leaf reading. Only an admin that can distinguish ] from ] economics can understand the meaning of, and therefore sanction users for violations of, policies like NPOV in the context of Mises-institutes articles, which relate to fringe economists/economics. ] (]) 20:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I haven't looked at everything, and especially not the off-wiki claims, but I get the impression the behavior issues may not be as one-sided as presented. | |||
| ::Not a good idea. See ]. And I've observed where some (self-proclaimed) experts have told other Misplaced Pages editors that all contributors are amongst peers. – ] (]) 20:48, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Blockquote|"During this, I was much subject to ] on major of the articles I created such as ], you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had {{Diff|Tsumyoki|1240530309}} as SerChevalerie would just ], arguing by citing essays like ] instead of finding a resolution or just ]."}} | |||
| ::: We (editors) are all peers, and should all contribute to all articles we want to. But admins are not our peers, strictly speaking. They have far more powers and responsibilities. If we're going to dramatically heighten those powers, it makes sense to heighten the qualifications needed to wield them. ] (]) 21:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :In this talk page you're both volleying policy pages, essays, and vague accusations at each other, but the concerns SerChevalerie raised about this article were not unfounded. It starts from something reasonable, and you both escalate at lightning speed. | |||
| :::It's a fine idea, so long as they're not Austrians. However, Misplaced Pages hates experts, hates expertise, hates academia. ] (]) 20:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :If I look at your interactions, I'm not sure I see the story of one-sided ]. You both edit similar pages and regularly get into arguments. | |||
| ::::I will also note that the ] is available. Editors in general, not just admins and/or experts, can weigh in with their thoughts. But in reviewing the FTN I do not see many threads involving Austrian economics. – ] (]) 21:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't see you trying to disengage with this user either, you've served him three different level 1 warning templates, now you're escalating to ANI with more inflammatory statements. If you're seriously worried about physical harm, please disregard this and rush to ], but at least in the diffs you've linked, I don't see much credible threat of physical harm. ] (]) 14:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::This proposal is more than a bit off the wall. Nothing on Misplaced Pages is constrained to experts, as a tertiary source we do not need to be experts, and the original proposal makes no mention of neutrality. The issue is accepted behaviours, period. That the proposer seems not to recognise how Misplaced Pages operates comes as a surprise to me: consensus rules and verifiability trumps truth. . - ] (]) 23:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :On-wiki evidence here, off-wiki evidence arbcom. Too long to read and wall of text. ] 08:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{ping|Sitush}}, Could you tell us which articles constitute the set on which you are supporting General Sanctions and what you believe have been the factors or issues in those articles which require the GS remedy? Please be specific in your response, citing which issues were problematic and how those issues were related to content, behavior, and any other factors you feel are relevant. Above, you wrote, "The general sanctions imposed on Indian castes affected far more articles and editors than this proposal will ever likely do." Could you estimate the number of articles in the Indian caste sanction set and compare it with your estimate of the number that would come under the proposed sanctions here? Thanks. ]] 23:46, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Admins do not determine content issues (like neutrality) so this proposal isn't needed. Admins carry out consensus and that's it. Every admin action should be able to be linked to a specific consensus. (Speedy deletions, for instance, are determined by predetermined consensus at ]). All an admin must do here is determine whether the consensus of editors is that a piece of content is neutral or not in the form of closing a discussion or protecting a page. No admin should be taking it amoungst themselves to claim an authority to determine neutrality. Admins are peers of editors whom only are trusted with an added responsibility of pushing buttons ''on behalf of the community''.--v/r - ]] 00:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' per TParis above, and because the disputes about Mises & co aren't about economics anyway... ] (]) 00:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' that's not how Misplaced Pages works. FWIW, I do have a minor in economics. --''']]]''' 00:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}}While we have 3 fresh and thoughtful new participants here, may I ask you -- if you wish -- to review the recent history on the article and talk page and express your view on the question of 1RR, Protection, or Status Quo on this article? My current view is that the current discussion cleared the air and that progress improving the article has resumed. ]] 00:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::There've been so many proposals and variants, not to mention derailments, that I've lost track of what I'm for and against. In the meantime, while everyone is arguing here, the article is moving forward nicely. Maybe you're right and we're just overreacting here. They're not called drama pages because of all the clear thinking they encourage... ] (]) 01:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. This is antithetical to the way Misplaced Pages has always worked. If an editor or administrator acts improperly because of a misunderstanding of a factual nature, this can be corrected by referring this or other editors to appropriate citations of fact. ] <small>(])</small> 01:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : You do make a good point with how WP works. But your other argument is frankly naive. Background knowledge is necessary to process and contextualize the facts presented in a given econ link. ] (]) 01:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. For reasons mentioned above and because who knows if anon editors even have credentials they claim to have? '''] ''' 01:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose:''' blatantly not how Misplaced Pages works <span style="border:1px solid;background:#800080">]]]</span> 02:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| == User:TTYDDoopliss and gender-related edits == | |||
| === Counter-proposal, close without action === | |||
| {{atop|result=Indeffed by Canterbury Tail ] ] 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| While we've been anxiously arguing over what extreme measures will prove necessary to end the edit war, moving further away from consensus (or even the stated goal) with each response, the war inconveniently ended itself. The fire is no longer raging out of control. In fact, there is no fire to put out, so we should stop discussing the utility of water vs. explosives and just walk away. Drop the stick, bury the hatchet, move on. Insert the idiom of your choice, or just silently kill this dramatic monstrosity of a thread. The one thing we should all be ready to agree upon is that we're not going to agree to do anything helpful at this point. ] (]) 17:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| <br>I just wanted to add that TTYDDoopliss was found to be the sockpuppet of an editor many of us became familiar with last spring on ANI and the Teahouse. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :It amuses me that the vociferous and problematic contributors - the ones who seem to cause all this Austrian economics mess - are the ones who are suddenly backtracking and trying to find any way to prevent this becoming more than another long-winded thread about the subject. Of course, it is A Good Thing if the specific issue has now been addressed but the underlying issue, which is that which the sanctions proposal attempts to address, seems to remain. I think what we're seeing here is a reaction by the likes of MM and Specifico to a possible boomerang situation. Let's get the sanctions in place: if it turns out that the threat of them has actually been sufficient to bring some normality to behaviour etc then great, and if not then they'll be there to be used on the next occasion that this crap starts up. - ] (]) 17:21, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * {{userlinks|TTYDDoopliss}} | |||
| ::Please strike your personal attack and comment with respect to the topic at hand. ]] 17:24, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Just going to note that Sitush could have just voted "Oppose" and moved on. The fact that this immediately degenerated into personal attacks is the strongest evidence that this entire thread has spoiled on the vine and needs to be culled. It's just a great big mass of bad blood waiting to burst. Kill it. Burn it with fire. ] (]) 17:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Summary: Is there a non-male administrator willing to provide some guidance to this editor, particularly in edits related to gender? | |||
| * '''Support''' - As nominator. ] (]) 17:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' purely on the basis that simply moving on has clearly not worked in the past. ]] 17:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' for many reasons stated above. '''] ''' 17:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - Doing nothing does not address the issue brought forth by Mark Arsten, and would likely result in even more hurt feelings and wasted time. If folks intend to edit according to the accepted practices of the project, then there should be little concern about sanctions. I have actually seen discretionary sanctions work very well in previous cases. They tend to quickly isolate problematic editors. If the NE Ent's proposal fails, then this will almost certainly land on ARBCOM's doorstep, thus wasting even more of the community's time for a similar result. - ]] 18:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' - We all want editing to proceed more smoothly, but I have been disappointed not to hear any specific discussion of how or why the various proposals here would accomplish that. Sometimes a hiatus such as has been occasioned by this ANI is restorative. Despite a lot of rumbling from various quarters, I only recall one ANI in any of the Austrian-related topics which led to any discipline against an abusive editor, and that was not in this Mises Institute article. It's a big leap from one discipline per year to ARBCOM, MrX. ]] 19:57, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' and every contribution from the core group of editors active at the relevant articles to these ANI threads makes me more and more sure SDS are needed and will be effective. <code>]]</code> 20:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Qualified Support''' I regrettably have to support Miles's proposal because this thread is an unmitigated disaster (people are being very extreme in their use of heated rhetoric and threats, but have failed to provide any diffs in support of their allegations). I do however think that heightened scrutiny on LvMI entries, both from admins and other users, would be acceptable and even desirable in light of the problems we've had with those pages. Some sanctions in this regard may be necessary down the line. But such sanctions have to be substantiated by diffs and citations of policy, both of which are utterly lacking in this appalling thread. ] (]) 23:24, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The user in question is relatively new. (Yes, an early edit stated she had a previous account, but she used it for roughly one day in December 2024 before {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Teahouse|prev|1265829279|losing her password}}, and she had no warnings at all on the account, so abuse of multiple accounts does not apply here. | |||
| ===Procedural Note: Where's the diff?=== | |||
| With her new account, she quickly {{Diff|Misplaced Pages:Teahouse|prev|1265829279|received a message alerting her that gender is a contentious topic|diffonly=yes}}, so she is CTOPS/aware of gender issues. After which, she has made edits including: | |||
| The stridence and certitude behind the call for general sanctions made by many editors above, starting with a complaint by OP which featured exactly '''zero''' diffs, is astounding given the total absence of evidence in support of their allegations of problematic or biased editing. I don't recall anyone pointing to a single problematic addition or removal of content on one of those pages (as opposed to pointing to examples of users, especially Binksternet, making inappropriate personal remarks to other users). People appear to have lazily and erroneously inferred from the high number and intense nature of ANI postings that some or all of the editors who spend time there must be "bad." I demand that people begin to offer diffs of genuine, ongoing (i.e. from the last month or more frequently) violations of policy on '''articles'''. Bare conclusory assertions of "misconduct" and "bias" (bereft of any evidence) wouldn't cut it on the playground, and they shouldn't here either. ] (]) 17:52, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :There is a list of past ANI reports above, for starters. - ] (]) 17:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: So one user's slanted interpretation of ANIs, most of which related to personal misconduct and none of which resulted in any sanctions whatsoever, is a substitute for diffs of inappropriate edit to Mises Institute related articles? Knowing that you (and presumably others here) think that way speaks volumes, Sitush. ] (]) 18:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::None of which, {{ping|Sitush}} -- as has been pointed out by me and by uninvolved editor {{ping|Stalwart111}} and others -- support {{ping|Carolmooredc}}'s claims, and at least two of which, as I've indicated above, are outright misrepresentations. You have just given a fresh example of what {{ping|Steeletrap}} described, ]] 18:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I would be very surprised if most of the people commenting on this issue did not at least review the relevant article history, article talk pages, user talk pages and noticeboards. Diffs can be useful for a simple case of edit warring or vandalism, but when an issue spans several articles in a single topic area, a handful of common editors, and a multi-week timeframe, it's makes a little more sense to use other tools to gain a larger view of the situation. - ]] 18:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::If they did, there's little evidence of such research in the comments on this thread. Your guess is not unreasonable, but I don't see anything in the comments here to confirm that it actually happened. At any rate, there are two separate issues. First, whether an uninvolved editor forms a personal judgment by researching the history more broadly than the examination of selected diffs. But second, how can one editor discuss or advocate such judgment if not through documentation in the form of diffs or specific references to discussions and issues. I see no sign in this whole glorious jumble that more than a few uninvolved editors did any such research and we've already been 'round the mulberry bush on Carolmooredc using ''what appear to be references and diffs'' to mislead and misrepresent the record. It seems unlikely to me that any uninvolved editors here devoted much attention to scrutinizing any of the undocumented claims that were bandied about here. When that kind of detailed scrutiny does in fact occur, discussion threads tend to be focused on separating fact from interpretation and the discussion converges to a consensus. Maybe that will happen here if the thread stays open for another week or two. ]] 19:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::The topic is potential sanctions for all editors on the articles, so fairly general links to past ANIs, etc. more acceptable. If it was a proposal to topic ban certain editors, more specific and telling diffs would be necessary. I think people can judge for themselves if I use "''what appear to be references and diffs'' to mislead and misrepresent the record." Some description helps since people are less likely to click on links like , , etc. If sanctions are applied, I personally would give it at least a month before even thinking about looking at certain covered articles again to see whether sanctions worked and it was safe to try to put in NPOV info. However, I'd be delighted to put the relevant templates on a few articles. {{Smiley}} '''] ''' 21:52, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::A topic ban is exactly what you proposed (only this morning) - ''"I think at least two of them should be topic banned by an editor now and there would be no need to go to ArbCom"''. Failing that, you advocated a pseudo topic ban; applying sanctions to, ''"whatever ones and Steeletrap have been working on in this area"'' and you want sanctions applied for ''"at least a month"''. Your motivation here is transparent. ]] 06:22, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * This sequence of edits to ]: | |||
| == More abuse more threats; ] before, now ] == | |||
| ** {{Diff|List of media notable for being in development hell|prev|1270570240|Edit summary: ''men don’t be utterly deprived and ruin women’s lives by being a sex pest challenge (don’t revert if you’re a man, you’re disgusting and I want nothing to do with you guys)''|diffonly=yes}} | |||
| {{archivetop|status=blocked|result=31h by Drmies. <small>]</small> 00:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
| ** {{Diff|List of media notable for being in development hell|prev|1270571663|Edit summary: ''Undid revision 1270571008 by C.Fred (talk) how many more women are going to be hurt by continuing to let men like this in the game industry''|diffonly=yes}} | |||
| I have recently reported ] here at ]. but the report has "vanished" presumably archived ; ] is still doing as he pleases and now also supported by ] who has decided to "partially-lock" the page because of "vandalism" and now threatens me with the complete lock right here ]. | |||
| * {{Diff|Dawn M. Bennett|prev|1270573048|To Dawn M. Bennett|diffonly=yes}}, removing an image with the edit summary ''she has cleavage, which means men will want to screw her if they see the image'' | |||
| * {{Diff|User talk:TTYDDoopliss|prev|1270578539|To her own user talk|diffonly=yes}}, removing a thread that included warnings with the edit summary ''please leave me alone, im trying to lessen my suffering as a woman in a male-dominated world'' | |||
| I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I concede her point that, generally speaking, men in the world have done and continue to do pretty crappy things to women. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to ], and IMO, some of her edits are even going counter to the viewpoint she holds. I also know that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social platform, and I worry that her behaviour, unchecked, will result in her crossing a line that gets her blocked, where an admin, regardless of gender, has to stop the disruption. | |||
| The PXE page is not vandalized, they call vandalize to add a project that competes against the one they "religiously" support; these guys just think they are WP owners. | |||
| I'd like somebody to reach out to her to give her some advice before it gets to that point, and—while I generally think that any editor can do any job on Misplaced Pages regardless of gender—I think this a situation where a non-male or cisfemale administrator should be the one to make the contact. —''']''' (]) 15:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Is anyone able to help me here? Do you guys think if I really want to "vandalize" the page I'm going to put the energy I'm putting on this fight against these ABUSERS? c'mon | |||
| :I was going to suggest that if there's any founded concerns a trans woman would get bitten in this hypothetical interaction then we should probably just ] right now. However then I went and looked at the diffs in question and the discussion that was on the user's talk page and I have to ask: has anyone considered this might all be a troll? ] (]) 15:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 22:09, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : |
::perhaps my useful non-gender related edits might tip you off to the fact that im not a troll? here’s something non-gender related articles i fixed up: ], ], ] ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :I think this is a straightforward ] or ] block. Misplaced Pages quite a number of women editors and they seem to be fine and don't seem to experience overt persecution. I just don't see how this user can reasonably be expected to collaborate with others, a core requirement of Misplaced Pages editing, if they're just going to accuse everyone else of being misogynists. ] (]) 16:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :If you're upset about a page being semi-protected, why don't you register an account so you can edit it instead of shouting about admin abuse? ] (]) 22:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them ''removing'' mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. ] (]) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually what I read was Drmies telling you that if you kept it up you would be blocked. I think your behavior is far from correct, accurate or within our policies. Anger doesn't help....it just makes me support Drmies should he decide to block you.--] (]) 22:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yeah, ] in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. ] (]) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] Hrm. So is the inference that you ''willingly and knowingly'' made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —''']''' (]) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Honestly I don't think you're in any sort of distress at all. As I think, rather, that you are trolling Misplaced Pages and ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 18:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{tq|benefit of the doubt}}{{snd}}Pardon me, but what doubt could there possibly be? ]] 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Surprised they weren't blocked after the vast majority of en.wiki contributors "nerdy men". ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 16:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::that’s… not an insult? just an observation ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL ] (]) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::“Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I go to the talk pages of articles, no one ever responds. I just operate over ], it’s easier and takes less time. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :i mean you requested “guidance”, everyone else is suggesting indef which is ''not'' what i had in mind when you left this here. id gladly take a gensex topic ban over never being able to edit ever again. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm suspecting trolling, here. ] (]) 17:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for ] violations. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information ''about the exploitation caused by the games industry'' - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make ''women working in the games industry literally less visible,'' seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{tq|I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body}} Be that as it may, leave that attitude at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay.]] 18:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks.]] 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::clearly you’ve never had a ], or ]. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::You've already been told by {{U|Liz}}, so it's up to you now. Either acknowledge and take on the board the advice you have been given, or yes, you will likely be blocked.]] 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Acknowledge that your past actions were wrong and disruptive, you promise to never do them again, and from here on contribute constructively. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], I'll cut to the chase rather than participating in a debate over what your motivation is for some of your editing. I'm a female administrator and you've been brought to ANI. While this is sometimes done for frivolous reasons, for the most part, unless vandalism is occurring, complaints are brought here to resolve in order that harsher sanctions won't be necessary. It's an attempt to address problems before a block becomes necessary. There is a view that your glib messages asserting a POV regarding sexism or editors on this project are inappropriate and borderline unacceptable. Can you cease with the personal commentary here? Because if you can not, there will not be a third chance, my Misplaced Pages experience tells me that a block from editing of some duration will be coming your way. So, the choice is up to you at this point. Act professionally and not like Misplaced Pages is some kind of discussion forum, or have your editing privileges removed. | |||
| :And to reinforce this in case it needs to be emphasized, this is not about sexism or gender really, it's about NPOV and disruptive editing. You'd be getting a similar message if you were making side comments about politics, ethnicity, race or any other subjects that cross over into contentious subject areas. These are designated areas where sloppy editing and off-the-cuff comments are sanctioned if the editor can't control her/himself. From a nerdy female editor, <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::is there any other way I can make Misplaced Pages a better place for women? How about a policy like ] but for women? ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm looking at edit. A perfectly normal picture of a woman was removed with a weird and offensively sexualised edit summary. I can't begin to stress how perfectly normal that picture is. There are two possibilities here. One is that this is anti-feminist trolling under a false flag but the other is that TTYDDoopliss is exactly what she claims to be and was genuinely triggered by a perfectly ordinary picture of a woman at an awards ceremony. If the later then she is clearly in no state to be able to edit Misplaced Pages at this time. Pictures like that turn up all over Misplaced Pages. If we have stronger evidence of deliberate trolling elsewhere then obviously that's an indef (of both the old and new accounts) but if that edit was made in good faith then I think a temporary block would be best for all concerned. It would give TTYDDoopliss an opportunity to come back later if she is well enough, and if she wants to, of course. --] (]) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::There's which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. ] (]) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What we would expect is to find ] compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in ] in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. ] (]) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And, exacerbating this, you were already engaged here with people raising concerns about your widespread disruptive editing, which had been explained to you, before you made this edit. Which makes it quite deliberated disruption. ] (]) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::OK. Now I'm looking at edit and that does seem a lot more like trolling. The edit summary sounds like an anti-feminist parody of a feminist and the actual edit is to remove coverage of an alleged sex offender. Given that sexual misconduct is a serious issue in the video games industry it seems implausible that even the most misguided feminist would try to cover it up. I know that mental illness can express itself in many ways but... I just don't buy it. ] (]) 19:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{tq|I removed it because it made me upset.}} What? Have you read ] and ]? ]<sup>]</sup> 19:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just ], a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::fine ill shut up now ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: also looks like parody. ] (]) 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the ''male'' protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. ] (]) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No one said or implied any such thing. ] (]) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Women don't exist to fulfill men's needs. That is very true. However desire for a partner can certainly be part of a character's motivation. ] (]) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: actually takes a ] cited statement and rewrites it to say something that the RS did not say not once but twice. In addition, there is the claim that erasing sexual orientation as a possible subject of obsessive and compulsive ideation is somehow reducing heteronormative bias. Which is somewhat contrary to what I would expect from a sincere feminist editor. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: is somewhat better than average. At least the source says, "Insofar as they affect women, bromances, when taken in conjunction with monogamous heterosexual relationships, decrease the burden on women to provide all the care work for their partners." | |||
| :::::::However "all the care work" is paraphrased by Doopliss to "The increasing tolerance of bromances relives pressure on women to be emotionally intimate with men," which is... not... the same thing. But at least I can look at the source, look at the statement and draw a line between them, however tenuous. ] (]) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Also, this too supports my "troll" hypothesis since the very next paragraph of the Chen source begins "Bromances reinforce gender hierarchy, bolster marriage as the goveming, archetypal intimate relationship, and normalize homophobia." So we have an article crtical of bromance being used to praise it for getting men out of womens' hair. ] (]) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think it's clear some form of block is necessary now. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because you have disrupted multiple topics. ] (]) 19:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And that's it. That's the proof that we are being played. An inexperienced user would not be advocating for a topic ban. An inexperienced user would not even know what a topic ban was. This is probably a Gamergate dead-ender yanking our chains. ] (]) 19:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'd suggest a checkuser but what's the point? They are going to get blocked anyway. ] (]) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I know what a topic ban is because I’ve lurked on pages like AN/I before. I’ve been browsing back-end Misplaced Pages pages for years. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::what can I do to make you guys believe me? ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That ship has sailed. ] (]) 19:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I've gone ahead and blocked them. It's clear we're being trolled. They're not only offensively characterising men, they're offensively characterising women and people with mental illnesses. Thay also can't keep their own lies and beliefs straight. We're done here. ] ] 20:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: Indefinite block === | |||
| For disruptive editing and ]. I propose that TTYDDoopliss be indefintely blocked. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Per nom. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Even if they are what they claim to be there is nothing for them here. --] (]) 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. In addition, ] and ]. - ] ] 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' For the reasons and multitudinous diffs cited above I believe this whole dog and pony show is a troll. ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' per above. I don't mean to be rude, but Wikipedians are a diverse bunch, and some of us are bound to be male. If you can't work collaboratively, you can't work at all. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' because as I said before, whether this user has legitimate intentions behind these edits or is just ], their disruptive editing and refusal to acknowledge their actions shows me that they are ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' per nom ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Per Nom. The way she characterizes certain mental illnesses is untrue and frankly beyond offensive. ] (]) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - I believe we're being trolled. ] (]) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per nomination - I had initial sympathy but it's just trolling. <span style="background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;">''']''' <small>]</small></span> 20:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per nom. Good block by CT.]] 20:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support:''' TTYDDoopliss asked, several times over, what she could do to avoid a general block. Over and over again, she refused to respond in the one way that would have helped her: by saying that she'd clean up her act and stop dumping her own issues onto this site. Even if we weren't being trolled, any time an ] person gets cbanned, an angel gets its wings. ] 21:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == ]: ] and ] behaviour. == | |||
| @ES&L you are a troll I do not answer trolls. | |||
| Toa Nidhiki05 has been guarding the hell out of the ]. They instantly revert any change against the status quo that they don't like, citing a need for consensus, then don't actually engage with discussions around those edits except to call for moratoriums on even talking about them while spewing bad faith assumptions, or trying to wikilawyer away disagreements. I'm not a long term editor at ] and, frankly, don't want to be, but in the limited number of days I've been editing on this it's clearly an issue. | |||
| @Mark Miller, what ] did was not listen to any reason and just cast a new threat. MY QUESTION IS STILL ON why the block on that page? where is the vandalism? why just editing and trying to add some KNOWLEDGE on that page is vandalism? NO SIR, enough with this game. ] (]) 22:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Enough for now. 31 hours for disruptive editing and namecalling. Poor ES&L--an endangered species already, and now called a troll. Seriously, this has gone on long enough, and if you need more context see ]. FWIW, I have no idea what that article is about or what Widefox is trying to accomplish there according to the IP, and what I am supposed to be supporting. This is a combination of "help! admin abuse!" and "it's a conspiracy", on top of the other disruptions. ] (]) 23:09, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : You're right, Misplaced Pages is not a game. Due to excessive violations of Misplaced Pages's core policies, it was necessary to protect the article from continued violations. This is usually done '''instead''' of blocking. However, if the same person who was disruptive there continues to be disruptive elsewhere (you know, like ANI for example) and shows absolutely NO understanding nor desire to actually READ, then they're likely to be blocked to ''protect the project'' as a whole. Calling an admin or other '''valuable''' editor a troll usually isn't a wise move either ... <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 23:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah, even calling ''you'' a troll is unacceptable! :) ] (]) 23:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::: <small> I wasn't going to presume to be valuable, other than for the gold in my teeth </small> <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:08, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::IP editor is not honoring my wish to not be contacted by them... , after I said and then . <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span>; ]</span> 23:26, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{archivebottom}} | |||
| From an outsider's perspective, it doesn't appear fair when the subject of a complaint to AN/I is the same person who blocks the Editor posting the complaint. Clearly, there are many other Admins who frequent this board who could have blocked this user. It lends more weight to ]'s argument that he was being threatened by ] (I'm not arguing on the merits of his/her complaint, just the response to it). | |||
| Editors should feel like they can bring concerns to AN/I without being targeted by the users they have a conflict with. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 15:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Good-faith editors, yes. In other words, I ''was'' responding to the merits of the complaint, which are null and void. But I wouldn't have blocked if they had refrained from calling someone a troll, and that's even setting aside the "ABUSER" charge. You may also read the previous thread, the article talk page, and the user talk page. Block decisions aren't (or shouldn't) be made in a vacuum, and the context here is one single user editing against consensus and not paying attention to what, I'm guessing here, a half a dozen editors have told them. ] (]) 16:20, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: I know this might not seem obvious, ], but this wasn't a judgment about you, I was just posting a notice of how these moves appear to some regular Editors. For many, perception=reality. I don't think Admins should take action in cases that involve them, even if they made the right call. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 17:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::But I think the notion of "involved" is easily overextended. ] (]) 17:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Not only is it easily overextended, it's easily gamed. All a disruptive editor would need to do is target an admin investigating or warning said editor and the admin would be automatically excluded from taking admin action. This is specifically addressed as a caveat in ].--]<sup>]</sup> 17:53, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Exactly. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 18:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::While I agree with the general outline of what Liz is suggesting, I don't think it's applicable here; the block for an attack on a third party, not Drmies. Has the Dr been perfect here? No, they told 213 to ] on their talk page -- eewww, might as well say "With all due respect" -- cited "vandalism" for protecting the page instead of the proper "disruption editing," and threatened extending the block for serial unblocking requests when everyone (and Yunshui) knows the correct response to that is to remove talk page access. But these are nits in the big picture. While I don't doubt 213's intentions they have not taken aboard how Misplaced Pages works, and 31 hours is not a very long time. <small>]</small> 23:51, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ent is correct; I did say "have a nice day", and Ent also correctly assessed the spirit in which it was uttered. Let me add, though, that a lot of words preceded that phrase which, I hoped (vainly), would not fall on deaf ears; in other words, it was not intended as a simple and curt dismissal. ] (]) 05:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Obvious IP sock is obvious. And also blocked. ] ]] 19:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::*<small>Aww, Writ Keeper, I was literally just about to remove their post for being an obvious sock... :( ] ] 19:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::**<small>"The quick and the (metaphorically) hungry" is the law here in the wild jungle that is ANI. ] ]] 19:46, 18 October 2013 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::: What makes this IP an obvious sock? I genuinely want to know. Which account is he/she is a sock of? Can you connect this IP to a blocked account? I am really curious about this spidey sense that seems to come when an Editor becomes an Admin. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Not all admins have such a "sense", in general I do not. I admist i tend to be suspicious of "behaviorial evidence" where no evidence is actually presented. Someone says "it is Obvious that X is a sock of Y, just look at the contributions". It often is not obvious to me, and i've seen action taken on what seems very little evidence -- jsut a few edits. ] ] 19:25, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: At times it seems completely random to me. I've seen accounts blocked who have only made '''two''' edits, hell, I've seen accounts indefinitely blocked who have made '''0''' edits! Short of CU, the basis of "behavioral evidence" often seems to be quite ephemeral and insubstantial, like an Admin's "gut feeling". | |||
| ::::: The message I've picked up from my time reading over AN/I is that one is less likely to be blocked (particularly if one is an IP) if one never questions, reverts or contradicts anyone, if one flies under the radar, stay away from noticeboards, basically if one goes out of their way not to interact with anyone else or do anything to draw attention to oneself. For regular Editors, that approach seems to improve ones longevity. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:16, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: P.S. This seems to apply here: ] L. | |||
| ::::::Could you point me to the accounts with zero edits that you've seen blocked on behavioral grounds? That seems pretty surprising and I'd be interested to look into it. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 21:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Per MastCell, I would also be intrigued to see your list of such zero-edit accounts. Likely explanations, depending on circumstances, may include 1) edits ''were'' made, but to a page that was subsequently deleted; 2) edits ''were'' made, but the revisions were individually deleted (either as grossly offensive material, or because they contained private personal information); 3) the blocks were made by a checkuser who carried out an investigation without going through SPI; 4) the new account name was sufficient to tie it to a banned user (if users named BobTheSock1, BobTheSock2, and BobTheSock3 are blocked, I am probably not going to sit on my hands when I see BobTheSock4). | |||
| ::::::When you've made polite inquiries about such blocks in the past, what sort of response have you received? ](]) 22:54, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It's probable that most accounts you see "blocked on behaviorable evidence with 0 edits" have in fact made quite a few edits that were deleted - non-admins can't see the "deleted contributions" page. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 02:31, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: As for blocks done on accounts with zero edits I've seen this about 4 or 5 times and blocks of accounts with less than 5 edits, I've probably seen two dozen times. I look over probably 40-50 different user accounts every day and I'm sorry not to remember a specific IP number. If pressed to speculate (which is a complete guess), I'd say that these are accounts that got swept up in a SPI and were labeled a "sleeper account". I am curious how an IP can create an account without edits as I thought most IPs were dynamic. | |||
| :::::::: Of course, this begs the question, why am I looking at the Contribution pages for random IP accounts? Just trying to get to know WP. I see a wide range of types of IP accounts, some of which go back years, others, just one day. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 22:38, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::: P.S. I know of no way an account can have made edits and then have them disappear from their contribution page. Even if they were erased by an Oversighter, there is evidence that an edit was made, just not the content. I am not aware of "deleted contributions" and since I've not encountered a mention of them yet over these past few months hanging around noticeboards, I would think that they aren't commonly done. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 22:42, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::"Deleted contributions" simply means contributions to pages that are later deleted; once the page is deleted, the edits in its history don't show up in a user's contribs. Revdel and oversight leave traces, yes, but I'm not sure the traces extend to the user's contribs: I know that if the username is revdeleted, then it won't show up in the user's list of contribs, and I don't know if oversight leaves an entry in the user contribs list. They both always leave traces in the ''article's'' history, yes, but not necessarily the user's. As for this specific IP, an IP address belonging to a European proxy making its ''first and only'' post to denounce the admin in an ANI thread created by another IP address belonging to another European proxy (which had been blocked), with not dissimilar language, is not exactly a hard puzzle to figure out (though I could be wrong about the first PI address belonging to a proxy, it is certainly European, at least). I don't know if "IP sock" is technically the right phrase or whatever, but it's pretty certain to be the IP user evading his block, which is what the blocking template I used calls it. Trout me for biting if you deem it necessary, but I'm gonna stand by that decision. ] ]] 00:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: I'll need to read this twice but, given your explanation, ], it sounds like "deleted contributions" wouldn't account for the odd accounts that are preemptively blocked. I can see how if an article is deleted, the edits and their history would also be deleted but I don't think this would disproportionately affect the IP accounts. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 02:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also note that zero edit accounts and IPs could be blocked for repeatedly triggering the edit filter. ] (]) 02:52, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: Yes, edit filters are the next on my list to figure out. Thanks, ]! <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 02:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I'm afraid I can't be too much help there, I barely understand the things. ] (]) 03:46, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Can admins please take a moment and recall that their position in Misplaced Pages is to carry out consensus and not to be the "police force" of our policies as if they are laws? As an admin it is '''not''' your job to see violations and carry out "justice" summarily. Consensus of the Community needs to be seeked out more often before doing things that could possibly be seen as a COI, such as blocking someone who came to AN/I to report your ass. Admins also should be held to a higher standard and if an admin cant, expect after the fact, realize they are saying dickish comments perhaps they shouldn't be an admin. An admin should never be rude or overly curt. That is unacceptable. Especially when coupled with an attitude of being a policeman in Misplaced Pages. We don't have laws, we don't have police. Realize that.] (]) 03:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree that admins should be held to a higher standard than non-admins, but we're all human. Almost everyone will sometimes be overly curt or rude once in a while. ] (]) 03:46, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == ] disruptive move requests == | |||
| (The main thing I'm trying to draw attention to in those diffs is the declaration that an edit "will not be made'. Please see below before taking claims of local consensus at face value) | |||
| ] has put forward 4 move requests for the article ]. The first was in Jan 2012 and was declined. The second on Sept was also declined, RoslynSKP challenged this conclusion at ] and the conclusion was that the move request has been concluded fairly. The day after this conclusion, RoslynSKP put forward an additional move request, which I closed procedurally on the basis of the move review having been completed and concluded that the requested move closure was fair. RoslynSKP failed to heed and promptly inputted a 4th requested move.--] (]) 11:45, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I've closed the newest RM and left a message for the nominator. Hopefully this will be the end of it.--] ]/] 14:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :As I understand it a "no consensus" result normally don't preclude new move requests, though it's best to wait before opening a new one. <s>The 4th move request was not by RoslynSKP, but by a different editor, ].</s>. ( Got confused by early the archiving and indenting. Sorry. ) ] (]) 15:29, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have agreed with Cuchullain's advice to wait a couple of months. I thought it was important to make the points raised by me during these several move request, and in particular the issues raised in this last request. These still need to be fully discussed, and I hope this can take place in the future in a calm, considered, and polite fashion. It was not my intention to be disruptive, so I am sorry for that. --] (]) 00:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::: 4 move requests, all failed within 3 years is clearly disruptive. Quit while you're ahead <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:38, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I just did. With an apology. In the post immediately before your's. --] (]) 00:47, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Most recently he decided to just blanket slander multiple editors who disagree with him while again calling for a moratorium on changes he doesn't like. | |||
| :::::So are we to understand that you plan to raise another move request between two and twenty months from now? --] (]) 00:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| More specifically this line: | |||
| :::::: (Yes, I seem to think that Roslyn didn't get the intended memo entitled "Don't") <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 23:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{tq|Rather than persuade editors, it seems editors are attempting to force these changes through.}} (right below an entire thread that was made before a controversial change specifically to discuss said change) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| A little concerned about the activity on this article and whether it is fair to the article-subject. ] and I seem to be on the same page - the article is over-editorialized and relies heavily on a single author, ], as a source. That author writes in an op-ed style and his depiction of events conflicts substantially with other sources. WP:BLP is relevant. ] feels the article should be negative and has argued in favor of using primary sources as proper material for contentious material about a BLP. | |||
| I feel this last one is the most important, because it highlights a pattern of what's been going on here: Toa telling editors a local consensus has been reached, and that they're free to read back, and then citing their own requests obliquely as if they're others ("{{tq|or called for a moratorium on changes}}") and, most importantly, creating an in-group of who is allowed to weigh in on article content ({{tq|Only one active discussion-engaged user}}). Other editors, like @], have been calling them out for this as well. | |||
| Keithbob and I have been accused of secretly being paid editors for Bell Pottinger and despite two BLP posts, 1 COIN post, and miles of Talk page discussion, there hasn't really been much progress. Not sure what better way to resolve the issue than post here in hopes that there will be more engagement. ] (]) 16:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Aaaaaargh. This is a complicated matter that could do with a set of fresh eyes. ] (]) 17:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| Quite misleading. The matter actually began when a self-admitted ] public relations employee and representative for Matthew Bryden, one HOgilvy, sought to clean up Bryden's[REDACTED] page on his client's behalf (c.f. ). Bryden is a controversial figure who was dismissed last year from the UN for poor performance as the UN's Coordinator for the Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group, a regional watchdog panel (c.f ). With this mandate, Bryden's Misplaced Pages PR representative contacted the CorporateM account above, who then proceeded to ping his wiki friends and basically tried to remove anything critical of Bryden. That includes everything from the fact that Bryden was fired to his previous place of residence according to his own alma mater. It later came to light almost by accident that CorporateM is himself a PR representative, a fact which he never bothered revealing on the article's talk page. However, on his own user page, CorporateM did express his position on conflict of interest as follows: : "if a PR person served Misplaced Pages's interests and their client's simultaneously, this would be a conflict of interest and would be unethical we serve our client's interests exclusively." This is in direct opposition to ]'s instruction that "Wikipedians must place the interests of the encyclopedia first." This past week, CorporateM deleted this surprising Position on COI revelation from his user page , though it is of course still stored in the page history. So basically, we have a situation where at least one PR representative was "helping" another PR representative clean up his client's[REDACTED] bio page, all the while believing that "we serve our client's interests exclusively". What's best for Misplaced Pages is instead apparently "unethical". ] (]) 17:20, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :] has publicly divulged their status as a PR rep in several forums and on several articles going back several months. He/she does not edit in areas where he/she is representing a client. He/she does edit other articles on WP where he/she is ''not'' representing a client and makes good faith additions to the further develop the project as a whole including commenting at RfC's and policy discussion and improving content on WP articles like ]. I encourage any editor or Admin to scan the talk pages and decide for themselves which editor is pushing a point of view here. In particular where several uninvolved editors commented and criticized the use of editorials, self published and primary sources being used to malign the subject. Despite that consensus, it took a month and a thousand words of talk page discussion to remove them because of . Now, Middayexpress' last ditch effort is to make a personal attack on CorporateM (unfounded accusations with no diffs are personal attacks) and using COI allegations to gain the upper hand in a content dispute which is a violation of the ] guideline.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 18:00, 18 October 2013 (UTC)--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 18:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I should point out that Keithbob is one of CorporateM's aforementioned wiki friends that he pinged for support ("I thought it would be better to just start a fresh string I can link to and ping a few editors so we can get additional input" ). They've basically been attempting to remove all critical material on Bryden, typically on the weakest of pretexts. ] (]) 18:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::: So, you're arguing against Editors who know each other from their time on Misplaced Pages collaborating together? <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm saying the pinging in this instance is an example of ] ("Posting an excessive number of messages to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand"). ] (]) 15:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I could be wrong, but I ''think'' Middayexpress is saying these editors are proxying for each other (i.e. not using independent judgment) in order to work around the formal restrictions of ] best practices, possibly in some sort of quid pro quo arrangement. E.g. you make my proposed edits and I make yours, and we each claim we have no COI for the changes we're making. Is that correct? --] (]) 18:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Just to clarify, the Bell Pottinger editor posted at COIN and ] asked me to chip in on a volunteer basis. These kinds of personal attacks and conspiracy theories are standard fair for this article unfortunately... ] (]) 17:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::The quotes and difs above speak for themselves; no personal attacks necessary. As for the Bell Pottinger public relations representative, he indeed posted at COIN, and I linked to the very post where he said that he would do that. He also posted on CorporateM's talk page and repeatedly, typically requesting (and more often than not receiving) direct assistance. This was also not the first time that the account contacted CorporateM. They were apparently already acquainted before this affair . Missed that. ] (]) 18:09, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{nao}} Unless I'm way off-track, CorporateM's admitted behavior is a blatant violation of ] and ], not to mention ]; his/her statement that he/she serves only the client's interests and not Misplaced Pages's interests is clear evidence of ], and the decision to remove his/her COI disclosure is inexcusable. It's a pattern of terrible abuse of editing privileges, and harsh sanctions are appropriate IMO. --] (]) 23:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Note, actually doing what Toa asks and looking back through old talk page discussions on this largely results in finding Toa telling people the same thing then, too. | |||
| {{nao}} <strike>I'll also note that both CorporateM and KeithBob have exhibited '''extremely''' precocious editing skills for having only created their accounts in the last few weeks. --] (]) 00:08, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</strike> ''stricken per apology previously and by another editor in good faith'' | |||
| *Fleischman, what? CorporateM and Keithbob have been here for forever. And CorporateM's statement, cited above, is interpreted in a completely incorrect manner. Midday, I just reread your comments. You're stooping pretty low there. ] (]) 01:18, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::That's not exactly my fault since much of what I posted are CorporateM's own comments. I couldn't make that up if I tried. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *What on earth are you talking about, ]? Both those editors have been around for years. If you're going to snipe at people, at least try to keep it ''plausible'' even if not true. The same goes for the MEAT / COI / CANVAS / NOTHERE alphabet soup. ] (]) 01:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| There's a content dispute under-riding most of this, which frankly is probably best adjudicated at this point by literally anyone other than Toa or myself. The meat of this ANI is wholly independent of the content dispute, except insofar as Toa's apparently not been engaging in the most NPOV way with editors when it comes to sourcing requirements. I want to point out that despite Toa's reality-bending insistence I've been pretty open to admitting a different proposal for a change from others was better than my own idea. In an attempt to placate his revert-happy self on what I was sure would be controversial (removing 'conservative' from the dominant ideology of the party) I started by making a discussion thread highlighting that the sources that were being used didn't make that claim, including direct quotes from the papers. Except for admonishing editors for wanting change, he's mostly elected to just straight up ignore any substantive discussion over the exact thing he's reverting. This is clearly OWN and POV editing, and it looks like previous attempts to caution him for edit warring were met with ''. I'd honestly like to bow out of editing that page entirely for a while for ''so'' many reasons, but I don't want to leave it in a state where one editor has declared an article theirs. | |||
| :::I think I've been here about 3-5 years now and have 16,000 edits and 13 GAs to my name. Also, it has been confirmed many-a-times when POV pushers attempt to use my COI disclosure as leverage that I may edit articles where I have no COI just like any volunteer. Midday's links and post show the type of extreme personal attacks and POV pushing we have come to expect. For example, I completely re-wrote my user-page, cut it in half, and he has selected a specific edit to make it seem like something nefarious is going on. It's just trolling and resorting to personal attacks and conspiracy theories in order to do whatever it takes to make sure the article reflects his point-of-view, rather than a neutral point-of-view. ] (]) 01:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| '''Addendum:''' for the same behaviour is being discussed, but the link is buried in the discussion.] 15:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Unfortunately, all of the most telling difs and quotes in my post above are to CorporateM's own remarks. That includes his own longstanding . It's unreasonable to expect people to turn a blind eye to this surprising revelation just because he deleted it a few days before posting here. That's actually all the more reason to notice it. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The page-in-question ''should'' be stable & at status quo. Best to work out content disputes on the page-in-questions' talkpage. ] (]) 15:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Beginning at the middle of the Matthew Bryden article, it loses its focus of being a written account of Bryden and instead serves as a ] for the opinions of a variety of people, none of whom are Bryden. The article reads "According to author Michelle Shephard," "According to journalist Robert Young Pelton," "Puntland President Abdirahman Farole suggested that Bryden was," "Ahmed spent 30 minutes of a July speech criticizing Bryden,". None of these people qualify as experts on Matthew Bryden or qualify as experts on written accounts of another person's life. Their views belong in their own Misplaced Pages article or in an article on ], but not in the Matthew Bryden article. Some of source material does convey chronological life event information about Matthew Bryden, and that's fine for the biography article. However the rest needs to be removed from the article. Author Michelle Shephard ebook has a quote from Bryden, and an independent third party source republishing a Bryden quote could make that Bryden quote fair game for the Bryden biography article. Instead, Shephard's view of what that means is added to the Bryden article. That is not how source material should be used to develop a biography. As for COI, CorporateM sates he does not have a COI with the Matthew Bryden topic and no one has posted and diffs that establish otherwise. -- ] (]) 02:34, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't think that the content dispute should be decided here. To be clear, 99% of the content dispute is moving one sentence earlier in the article and removing a source that failed verification. We're not talking about seeing how fast we can invoke Godwin's Law in a page about the GOP (though admittedly some editors are). I genuinely don't think the content in question actually substantial at all, which is why one editor increasingly spiralling into mudslinging over it while refusing to discuss changes beyond categorical rejection or highly mobile goalposts for inclusion is a problem. ] 15:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::BLP indicates that "criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." That said, Farole and Ahmed are quoted because Bryden and his Monitoring Group accused them of wrongdoing, so their replies are appended for balance. Shephard is also a secondary source relaying Bryden's views on a political issue related to his previous position at the Monitoring Group. If you look at the Misplaced Pages bios of other controversial figures, they follow a similar model but are often way more critical (e.g. ]). This bio is actually pretty tame in comparison. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I am out of town, and don't have time to reply fully to all of this. But the general dispute ongoing at the page is twofold: {{u|Warrenmck}} wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right", and they want "conservatism" to be removed as a majority faction. There doesn't appear to be support for either of these things (an ongoing RfC on the "far-right" designation is trending a pretty strong consensus in opposition, and removing conservatism appears to be equally unlikely to reach consensus). This is a content dispute involving, at this point, probably at least a dozen editors, and should be resolved on the page. | |||
| ::I would support removing all of it as an interim solution, and re-introducing content there is consensus for. But some of that really does belong. ] (]) 03:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :What {{u|Warrenmck}} does not seem to understand is that changing political positions on pages is something that comes up ''all the time''. None of the arguments presented have been new, and a local consensus has been developed with the collaboration of many editors. This took a lot of hard work and compromise to reach. | |||
| :For editors like myself - who worked on the present consensus versions - this is not a fresh, new discussion. It's more or less an endless string of discussions that have been ongoing for years. This is why several other editors - not just myself (and I'm not even the one who came up with the idea - that was {{u|Czello}}. I was actually the third to support one) have supported a moratorium on said discussions. There is nothing wrong with discussing a moratorium on repetitive topics that repeatedly emerge on talk pages. | |||
| :I will also note that, I have not, in fact, blindly opposed any changes to the article. I did not object when “right-wing populism” was added as a majority faction; I didn’t even participate in the discussion, iirc, because it was such an obvious changed. And in this discussion I've ''added'' additional citations to address {{u|Warrenmck}}'s concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes. It goes without saying that the article is not mine, I have never claimed it is mine, and I have no interest in subverting or going against whatever consensus is reached through talk page discussions, rather than brute force. '''] ]''' 15:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Once again, what I was calling for was including "far right" as a ''minor faction'', per the an absolute ocean of reliable sources. Even you explicitly stated in the RfC it's a minor ideology. You've accused me of wanting to make the page about the republicans being far right multiple times now, and the only time you've responded to me saying that 's not what I'm doing here was to say that having it on the page at all slanders the party as that | |||
| ::{{quote|Except the RfC isn’t about labelling the party far right, it’s about naming it as a minor ideology, which you here acknowledge?}} | |||
| ::and you responded | |||
| ::{{quote|Which is labeling the party as it.}} | |||
| ::Which isn't how NPOV editing works. | |||
| ::Beyond that I simply don't believe that Toa is accurately representing the discussions that are there now or the historical discussions around local consensus. | |||
| ::{{tq|I will also note that, I have not, in fact, opposed any changes. In fact, I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes}} | |||
| ::Please, any admin reading this exact quoted line, immediately go look at Toa's engagement on this exact point . Toa added a source paper, I read the source paper, removed it because it simply didn't make the claim it was being used to make, and instantly started a discussion thread asking for sources and explicitly explaining my removal. ''I did not make the change I knew would be controversial'', that was a different editor later. I also quoted the specific line in the paper which discussed why it wasn't an approprioate source for the claim it was being used for in my removal () Which Toa almost completely ignored. This is simply not an accurate recounting of events. | |||
| ::This is why I think this is an ANI issue. Toa routinely misrepresents or overstates consensus and historical discussions, while running off editors who don't agree, then claiming that only the long term editors should have a meaningful say. ] 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please find a time where I said you “want to make the page about the Republicans being far right”. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that. I have said you clearly have strong views about the subject, though. | |||
| :::What you are referencing was a typo. Notice that it’s not even a complete sentence? '''] ]''' 16:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Literally in this ANI: | |||
| ::::{{tq|Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right"}} | |||
| ::::That is not the same thing as defining far-right as a minor ideology of the party. Also from the talk page: | |||
| ::::{{tq|Its exclusion is not odd, as academic sources do not widely or generally or even often refer to the party as far-right, which is typically associated with literal fascism or Nazism. Believe it or not, this has been discussed dozens of times - including several in the last few months - and editors have reached a consensus that academic sources broadly refer to the party as center-right or right-wing.}} ] 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are making a distinction without a difference. '''] ]''' 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Involved: These are content disputes and should be dealt with at that level. ] (]) 16:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * ] appears to have been exceedingly cordial and professional in the differences you provided above. I see no wrongdoing on their part. ] ] 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Most of it belongs, including a lot of material that was removed for no legitimate reason. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *:I cannot disagree, except I think that speaking authoritatively about how a change will not be done regardless of sources provided simply breaks ]: | |||
| *:{{quote|An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.}} | |||
| *:The other problem is that the consensus they're pointing to doesn't seem to substantially exist. There's an abundance of "go see the old discussions" which themselves say "go see the old discussions" and so on. It's artificial, and it's being used to prevent edits that users don't like, as opposed to edits they can substantively object to. Seriously, just look at his presentation of these previous discussions here ] and go back in the archives. While I'm sure there were discussions at some (possibly many) points, there's a ''hell'' of a lot of reliable sources being objected to there on a house of cards. | |||
| *:Additionally, I think that's masking the fact that they're simply refusing to engage editors while reverting the article to the status quo. They're basically holding the article hostage by pointing people to an ongoing discussion they're not engaging in (, or on the talk pages with "see previous discussion" as a threadkiller). So the choice editors are left with is to edit war over an inclusion, or give up. The issue isn't that there's a content dispute here, it's that someone has ]ed their way into objecting to a specific edit on an ongoing basis, always maintaining a layer of "content dispute". As ] said, {{tq|"Do you have a content-based case to make here or do you just declare editor's contributions to be "low quality" if you disagree with them?"}} ] 16:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. ] 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place ''after'' I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer ] problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an ] mentality. ] (]) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::@] appears to be actively involved in this, and there's comments on their guarding against "far right" in the article going back at least two years of the same argumentation pattern and misrepresenting sourcing requirements and consensus. and . I agree this seems more like a CPUSH. For example, this was directed at Springee from the last diff: | |||
| *::::{{tq|The same failed arguments have been made in several similar discussions of late}} | |||
| *::::Basically, the patten we're seeing at Republican Party (United States) appears to be ongoing with several of the key users objecting to changes on identical grounds year after year without ever really explaining why these aren't open for discussion in light of sourcing standards. @] appears to be engaging in an identical pattern in many of the same articles. TFD, Toa, and Springee show up ''all over''[REDACTED] making the same tortured arguments around academic sourcing and consensus when someone mentions "far-right" in an article. Every single time it's a complete slamming of the door of the possibility that RS could ever be met for the inclusion of information they deem controversial. ] 13:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. ] (]) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Sorry, being vague wasn't my intention. I think you're engaging in the same CPUSH behaviour as Toa, just maintaining civility much better. It's possible to find ''years'' worth of identical argumentation from you on this across many articles, always with the same anything-other-than-excluding-content-is-unacceptable, and above you're continuing the relatively nonsensical arguments from Toa with Simonm223 in asking for unique sourcing standards for a claim you really don't like. You pick this fight very consistently on Misplaced Pages, usually with the same arguments. | |||
| *::::::If I'm way out of line here I'm fine accepting a boomerang, but I see several editors going way off the deep end in trying to prevent a very specific change to articles on Misplaced Pages that seems to be coming from a place of stonewalling ] 14:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::I hope my arguments have been consistent because I try to pay strict adherence to content policy and guidelines. ] (]) 17:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Accusing other editors of making "low quality" edits instead of making an argument isn't helpful or professional, and neither is demanding a unique standard for edits one is opposed to. ] (]) 17:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * This is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article. This discussion should be closed. ] (]) 19:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Respectfully ] and ] are behavioural problems. ] (]) 20:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As a comment, Toa’s response to multiple users adding failed verification tag was to go tag all the sources making a political claim they don’t like as failing verification en masse (). | |||
| :::In earlier discussions I supported including some of the material that Midday sought to keep, though not all of it. I can't remember if any of those items are mentioned above; it's on the record though. But in general I note three tendencies: that other editor (forget their name--it's on record too) was a bit too positive on the subject, Midday was much too negative and included material that IMO was unacceptable, and Corporate sailed mostly down the middle, though I did not agree with every one of their exclusions. But to my mind Corporate Minion was the most neutral of them all. Then again, this has been hammered out on the talk page and, I believe, on the BLPN board and possibly on a few user talk pages; for my money, I'd give Bobrayner free rein and let them have at it (Dr. Fleischman, we await your apology: sooner is always better than later). ] (]) 04:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :while these all on their own may be legitimate tags (though other editors have been removing some tags as apparently they did pass verification) I think taking this in the context of them actually refusing to discuss the failed verification tag that lead to this spree ''at all'' makes this pretty ] behaviour to me. If Toa wants to discuss bad edits, that’s good and fine. But they can’t have a policy of using bad edits from other people to deflect from any discussion around edits they themselves feel are valid. Apparently he doesn't have enough time to fully engage with this ANI or any of the discussions around his own edits, but does have enough time to read dozens of articles and point by point articulate his issue with each over at the talk page for ]. ] 08:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Comment:''' ] for this exact behaviour in 2022. The reason given at the time was | |||
| :{{quote|Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it.}} | |||
| :This is the same pattern of behaviour he's accused of here, for the same thing, and that resulted in an indefinite TBAN. Springee and TFD are again involved there, as well. This should make it pretty clear that, civility aside, this is a problem. A long, ongoing one. ] 14:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to ] more than ]. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. ] (]) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Honestly I agree having seen more of this being a systematic issue since making this ANI. ] 14:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Perhaps the issue is that good faith editor don't agree. A failure to get consensus to add a controversial claim is hardly proof of CPUSH. Additionally as the number of accused editors goes up it looks more like a true content dispute vs a single editor problem. I will also note that Toa has done quite a bit to review some of the references used to support the disputed changes and makes a good case that they don't support the claims within the edits being pushed into the article. ] (]) 14:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. ] (]) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{tq|Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy.}} | |||
| ::::And ''very clearly'' retaliatory. ] 14:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings. Per ]: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". If the source does not back up the cited claim, it shouldn't be used. This is... pretty ordinary stuff, actually. | |||
| :::::You'll notice I did not remove the broader claims, or change the in-article text. All I have done is trim sources that do not back up the claim given, which is something Misplaced Pages citations are required to do. If you reaction to a source review that results in no changes to prose is to file a report rather than discuss, challenge, or revert, you might have a hard time being successful with that. '''] ]''' 15:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{tq|You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings}} | |||
| ::::::Would you please provide the diff where you substantively responded to a thread made directly about a source you added not passing verification, which you were pinged in and did actually participate without addressing the substance of? Because that would go a long way towards convincing me this isn't a smokescreen of policy to mask more sealioning in a thin veneer of civility and plausible deniability. How about addressing any of the comments providing the ''exact'' types of sources you were asked for? When I did provide a reason and eventually reverted your addition, you just reverted with "nah it didn't fail verification" ignoring both the edit summary prior and the entire talk page discussion about the entire situation. As I said there, neither I nor any other editor personally needs to run improvements on the article through you, personally. If you object without engaging or explaining, it's perfectly reasonable for editors to simply ignore your perspectives. ] 15:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. '''] ]''' 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::No. The content dispute isn't the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I don't agree with {{U|Springee}} about some of their interpretations of appropriate content but I don't think their comportment is problematic except in as far as it gives cover to yours. Rather it's two things: how you insist sources should be interpreted and how you engage with other editors that has become disruptive. ] (]) 15:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The diff I asked for had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with you attempting to paint other editors as sidestepping a process you yourself have refused to engage in as a matter of policy, apparently going back far enough for you to have already received an indef TBAN for ''the exact same behaviour''. ] 15:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::As a perfect example, in this diff they claim that the New York Times piece does not support referring to the Republican party as right-wing populist. <s>This is because it says that the party isn't ''just'' a touch more populist. It then compares the Republican party under Trump to the racist populist ] and the fascist propagandist ]. This, to me, is more than sufficient to support "right-wing populism" but, because the article uses simile, Toa Nidhiki05 calls it a "Gish Gallop". </s>] (]) 15:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ok here's the correct quote now: {{tq|The overarching pattern is clear. In election after election, Democrats underperformed among traditional Democratic constituencies during the Trump era. Sometimes, it was merely a failure to capitalize on his unpopularity. Other times, it was a staggering decline in support. Together, it has shattered Democratic dreams of building a new majority with the rise of a new generation of young and nonwhite voters.<br /> This overarching pattern requires an overarching explanation: Mr. Trump’s populist conservatism corroded the foundations of the Democratic Party’s appeal. It tapped into many of the issues and themes that once made these voters Democrats.<br /> While the damage was mostly concealed by Mr. Trump’s unpopularity, the backlash to his norm-shattering presidency drew the Democratic Party even further from its traditional roots. The extent of that damage is now clear.}} | |||
| ::::::Now this article does compare the ''Democratic party'' as a whole to ''Trump'' on a purely linguistic level. However context matters here. The first line of the article is {{tq|It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it.}} The NYT has as table-stakes that the Republicans were transformed by Trump. In this context I think it's a reasonable argument that "Trump" here is a stand-in for the party of Trump. ] (]) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also, the ''New York Times'' introduces the article by saying, "Nate Cohn, The Times’s chief political analyst, makes sense of the latest political data." ] says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Therefore this is not an acceptable source. | |||
| :::::::It disruptive that so many unreliable sources have been presented in the discussion pages. It wastes edtiors' time as they discuss sources that cannot be used. | |||
| :::::::My suggestion is that going forward, unreliable sources that are presented should be struck out and editors who persist in presenting them should face sanctions. That will allow editors to focus on what reliable sources say. ] (]) 16:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what ] says {{tq|When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.}} ] (]) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::In this case the author is a journalist with a BA in politics IOW he has the same background one would expect for the writer of an analysis in a newspaper. Furthermore, when policy says that this type of source is "rarely reliable," the onus is on the person presenting it to explain why it should be deemed reliable. ] (]) 17:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page. Maybe it would be best if editors heavily involved there, would avoid each other & allow newcomers room to give their input. Might lower the heat. ] (]) 16:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Everything I posted on Bryden is factual. But as I've learned, it's those facts themselves that are more often than not inconvenient. By contrast, the majority of CorporateM's edits were in agreement with his fellow public relations representative HOgilvy. There was very little divergence in opinion between the two. In hindsight, it's difficult to see how there could be since CorporateM apparently believes a PR rep's duty is to exclusively serve the interests of his/her client rather than Misplaced Pages's interests (his words). At any rate, I would like to find a middle ground with the PR reps/friends, but this will take some doing. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :{{tq|Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page.}} | |||
| ::::Thanks everyone for your astute comments and observations. If you've visited the article talk page you will also notice that CorporateM has demonstrated an immense amount of patience on the talk page for months (and myself to a lesser degree). The article was highlighted at BLPN twice and outside eyes have come in but Midday seems to have an aversion to consensus and when CM and I walk away he skews the article again. So while I do support an uninvolved editor like ] making deletions as needed to create NPOV for the article I would also appreciate if some other folks could keep it on their watchlist as I think Corporate and I are pretty worn out from months of copious talk page activity with Midday. User Midday is a prolific editor who I'm sure has made many valuable contributions to the project. I hope that he/she is able to step back and reconsider their approach to the Matthew Bryden BLP and move on to other more productive activities. Thanks to all who have given input here. Cheers!--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 14:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :It isn't, for what it's worth. It's about a consistent pattern of behaviours going back years that came out, mostly, in the thread after the RfC, though partially there as well. Beyond that, good call. ] 16:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Is this the type of report that would be better addressed at ]? ~~ ] (]) 16:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Patience obviously works both ways. On the other hand, pinging one's friends for support does not at all constitute outside involvement. Quite the opposite. The solution here is genuine outside involvement by an editor(s) who has had no prior contact with any of the involved parties, as that might serve to prejudice or otherwise influence his/her actions. For this same reason, the editor(s) also cannot himself/herself be a public relations/media representative. ] (]) 15:14, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Why would you think that just because someone is pinged by Corporate (or anyone else) they're automatically their "friend" and thus, as you suggest, incapable if independent judgment? The instances where I agree with you and disagreed with them is sufficient evidence of the falsehood of this premise. I like to think that Corporate pinged me for my extensive knowledge and impeccable judgment. As for "genuine outside involvement"--you have been editing articles in that (geographic) area for years, and by your own argument you could be discredited for having a COI; from the discussions it's clear that you also don't come to the negotiation table without prejudice. As far as I'm concerned that does not discredit you anymore than it does me and, I might add, before you know it (extending your argument not by much) ''any'' kind of involvement is suspicious and WP should only be edited by 12-year olds who know nothing about nothing, who couldn't point out Mogadishu on a map if it bit them in the ass, in the name of impartiality.<p>Of course a PR rep's edit should be scrutinized carefully, as was done in this case by ''all'' parties, including Corporate--and I challenge you to find a PR person more transparent than Corporate (never mind the fact that he is not on anyone's payroll in this particular case, as far as I know) in their dealings with companies/articles/organizations where they might have a genuine COI. Besides, it's unlikely that four editors (counting myself) would all have the same damning POV in a case like this, which I think is another of your suggestions. I stand completely neutral towards the subject of this article, and my POV is NPOV. That doesn't make me right in individual editorial decisions, but whether they're made correctly or incorrectly, they're ''editorial'' decisions, unguided by any kind of partiality toward the involved governments, journalists, publications, freedom fighters, weapons dealers, non-governmental organizations, and Misplaced Pages editors. ] (]) 19:12, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It's bizarre to me to keep reading that you somehow think that "pinging one's friends for support" is a bad thing. It's called collaboration and as long as one isn't canvassing Editors to come participate in a deletion decision, RfA or contentious discussion, it is a good practice that happens all over Misplaced Pages every day, often organized through WikiProjects or more informally. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Frankly, probably? I misjudged how long this had been going on and the scale of it. ] 17:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Per ], there's an ] to follow when seeking additional input. Pinging random friends -- which CorporateM certainly did; every editor he pinged was a prior amicable acquiantance of his, with no connection to the topic other than that (one actually gave him an award of some kind ) -- is an example of ] ("Posting an excessive number of messages to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand"). ] is also quite clear that "when advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages, that editor stands in a conflict of interest". It's in the first paragraph and bolded for emphasis. This is in direct conflict with CorporateM's apparent general position on COI : "if a PR person served Misplaced Pages's interests and their client's simultaneously, this would be a conflict of interest and would be unethical we serve our client's interests exclusively." At any rate, given the foregoing, the only conceivable solution is genuine outside involvement i.e. by an editor(s) who has had no prior contact or dealings with any of the involved parties, as that might serve to influence his/her actions. This should be an acceptable compromise for all parties interested in a neutral page. ] (]) 21:00, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think it would be better suited to AE except that it's here now and AE tends not to like having an issue open at two venues. ] (]) 17:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::It sounds to me like you're wikilawyering, clutching at every straw because consensus might be against what it is that ''you'' want the article to present. One could read your commentary and opinions there as evidence of extreme bias against the subject of the article; your insistence on unreliable sources to make the article state that the subject was ''fired'' from that UN group could, hypothetically, serve as evidence. Mind you, that's based on actual things you said. HOgilvy clearly had a certain interest in the article, and so, I surmise, do you: HOgilvy in favor, you against. Corporate, Keithbob, me, Bobrayner, we are not (AFAIK) interested in the subject as such. And might I reiterate, for the now-bored onlooker, that Corporate got involved with this to ''prevent'' COI editing? This article, Middayexpress, is better off without you.<p>If anyone still cares, the general pattern displayed in this thread is evident on the talk page as well. Midday was at pains to get an editorial from an online organization accepted as a reliable source; Corporate points out (in ]) that Hiriian Online is not a reliable source. Look at the paragraph starting "Here we go", where Corporate makes a pretty convincing case that the website is run by a lobbying group. Midday's response? "Policies and guidelines come up in many Misplaced Pages discussions..." followed by a complete avoidance of the issue. This is why Midday's contributions here are ultimately useless and their behavior frustrating. They bring sources and context, which is helpful, and refuse to back off even after everyone else (that is, four editors, not counting HOgilvy of course--note {{U|Lexein}}'s contributions) disagrees with them. And now this interminable thread, full of wishy-washy nonsense about suspected involvement when there is not a shred of evidence of foul play on Corporate's side, again halting progress on the article: I propose a '''topic ban for this article''' for MiddayExpress. ] (]) 00:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't see why you consider this a behavioral issue rather than a content dispute. I follow a lot of articles that attract editors with fringe views: fascism is left-wing, cultural marxism and Jewish bolshevism are not just conspiracy theories, aspartame is dangerous, climate science is unsettled, etc. Some editors explain why these views are wrong, while others point to previous discussions. | |||
| :::::::::Most of the editors named above are CorporateM's wiki friends who he pinged for input. They are certainly not outside editors in this particular instance, and have no connection with the topic other than that shared friendship. So the fact that they see eye-to-eye on pretty much everything isn't exactly unexpected. This is the definition of inappropriate notification, as the WP:COI links and quote above show. If I were to have done the same (as I easily could've, btw), CorporateM et al. would surely in turn have complained about it. This is almost certain since, rather ironically, he already complained that my contacting another editor who by contrast had already edited the page would constitute canvassing . At any rate, my interest in the article is as a WikiProject Somalia member, which this bio on the former UN Coordinator of the Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group certainly falls under. It's in this capacity that I edited the page, just like any other Project page. What first caught my attention was some editor (CorporateM) removing huge swathes of material from the bio with no prior talk page explanation or discussion. I did notice, though, one post by another account (HOgilvy) requesting a cleanup of some sort . This account described himself as as a ] public relations representative and said that Bryden was his client. We already had problems in the past on other Project pages with Bell Pottinger PR reps, so that disclosure certainly caught my eye as well. I assumed that there was some sort of connection between the edits, which was confirmed when CorporateM linked me to a COIN discussion that HOgilvy had posted where he requested assistance. Since then, what I've been trying to do is retain some sort of balance on the article. This has been a challenge when CorporateM et al. seem to be believe that ''any'' material critical of Bryden is unacceptable, not just the Hiiraan Online piece (see ] for a discussion of that source in its proper context). However, Bryden is a controversial figure on the Horn of Africa political scene, so some degree of criticism is to be expected. Attempting to ban me or any other editor from the topic is not a solution, as all that does is remove any semblance of balance from the page. The only neutral solution is what Keithbob proposed above i.e. entrusting the article to an uninvolved third party. My one condition is that this editor(s) should not have had any prior contact or dealings with any of the involved parties since that might serve to influence his/her actions. ] (]) 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::If anyone should be banned, it isn't editors who insist that articles reflect reliable sources, but editors who try to inject fringe theories unsupported by reliable sources. | |||
| ::::::::::I think any objective observer who looks at the talk page discussions will see ''your'' comments for what they're worth; at the very least, they'll see that you are incorrect in your easy claim that everyone pinged saw eye to eye with Corporate. ] (]) 21:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::On your user page, you mention that you have written peer-reviewed articles in geophysics and vulcanology. Certainly you would not rely on an analysis by a journalist as reliable in those papers. For example, you would not use it for explaining why a particular volcano erupted. ] (]) 20:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * <b>Support</b>: Of the topic-ban per ]. A couple clarifications are in order though. The problem with the sources were that they were op-eds written by opposing political interests, not that they were published by Hiiran online, which may be a reliable source in other cases. And the UN DID fire Bryden, or at the very least they claim to have. If a new editor not previously involved (] was mentioned a couple times) wants to take a crack at it, I wouldn't mind abstaining as well for the sake of keeping the peace. ] (]) 03:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. ] (]) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::See above. ] (]) 16:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::See ]: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." | |||
| **The only source for the firing is a report by the ]--and I assume that , a primary source which does nothing more than list the ''next'' members of the UN Monitoring Group and says nothing about Bryden, is still in the article at Midday's insistence. Thanks for the other clarification as well. ] (]) 04:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Can you explain why in determining how to desribe a political group you prefer an article by a journalist rather than a political scientist writing in a peer-reviewed publication? Do you think it is prudent to substitute a consensus academic opinion with that of a journalist? | |||
| *** A reasonable point of discussion between civil and thoughtful editors. IMO, Inner City Press does seem like it may be a bit of an advocacy-type source. You know, one of those, "we uncover the truth not covered by mainstream media" types. And employers will often claim they did the firing while employees have a different POV. In this case in particular there is a political backdrop that makes it more complicated as well. I think Inner City Press may be acceptable to use, as long as it's done with caution. But that is a discussion best left for another time, after an environment is created where a thoughtful and civil discussion can occur. ] (]) 04:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If I want to know how to categorize a poltical group or know why volcanoes erupt, my go to source isnt't a newspaper. Instead, I would look for an article by an expert. ] (]) 15:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *** Inner City Press is an accredited media agency at the UN headquarters, the Federal Reserve and various other agencies . This is why its byline location is signed "United Nations", and how it managed to report on Bryden's dismissal as it was happening , . This as well is explained on the article's talk page. ] (]) 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| If I am following this properly, via the thread on the linked talk page: | |||
| *The reasoning given here by {{U|DrFleischman}} and others to suggest CorporateM is meating brins up an interesting hypothetical. Suppose I edit a certain article and think a section needs to be rewritten. Another user who also edits the article thinks the same. By the explanation given by some, I am violating WP:MEAT. <span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #003399;">]</span><span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #FF8C00;">]</span> 04:51, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| # The OP made a thread on ] saying that we should change the article to say that it was "anti-intellectual" and "far-right". | |||
| :::Not at all, at least in my mind. My understanding is that CorporateM and KeithBob were proxying for each other rather than exercising independent judgment. --] (]) 05:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| # Toa_Nidhiki05 said that this was a bad idea, and some stuff about previous consensus against doing this. | |||
| ::The solution seems to be to entrust the page to an uninvolved editor(s) with no prior association with any of the involved parties. This uninvolved editor(s) would then gradually edit the page, explaining each edit on the talk page as he/she went along. The editor(s) would also consider/hear the feedback of the erstwhile involved parties. ] (]) 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| # ??? | |||
| # AN/I thread | |||
| Is there anything I'm missing here? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Sealioning, a previous TBAN for identical behaviour, and multiple editors weighing in saying this is a CPUSH issue? ] 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{nao}} The above discussion focuses on the content dispute, rather than the conduct dispute, and misses the bigger point. CorporateM has admitted ( for example) he/she frequently edits as a paid advocate, he/she serves his/her client's interests exclusively () in direct violation of ]'s prime directive. (bolded in first para: ''"When advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages, that editor stands in a conflict of interest."'') My understanding is that Middayexpress has accused CorporateM and KeithBob of proxying for each other, and those accusations should be taken seriously in light of these COI issues. Regardless, even if they're incorrect, by his/her own admissions CorporateM has committed gross violations of ] and should be sanctioned accordingly. Let's not get bogged down in the content dispute; that's what DR is for. As for the proposal to topic ban Middayexpress, I make the (very reasonable) request that WP policy be cited and discussed before sanctions are imposed simply for slowing down "progress" on an article. --] (]) 05:53, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::You've said I'm guilty of sealioning three times in this thread, but as far as I can tell you haven't actually defined what you think that means, or what I've done. It's a pretty specific set of behavior - can you explain what I've done that qualifies as sealioning? | |||
| :CorporateM's userpage doesn't quite say that. Cherrypicking a diff and then misrepresenting it as a violation of a guideline (not a policy) in order to call for sanctions is a Bad Thing. And then you go on to ask for a policy basis for topic-banning Middayexpress? That's an impressive feat of doublethink. You're really not helping your case here; if you think the facts support your way forward, bring some actual facts - or step aside. We have enough drama already, we don't need people making up more. ] (]) 11:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::But to answer JPxG: yeah, that's essentially it. Like I said above, it doesn't look like either of Warrenmck's proposed changes will make it into the article, and I'm surprised this content dispute hasn't been closed yet. '''] ]''' 23:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::What's wrong with my so-called cherry picking? Is anyone even going to ''address'' Middayexpress's allegations, or are we choosing to sweep them under the rug? And I thought ] and ] were frequently cited in support of sanctions? And, again, what did Middayexpress do wrong? I'm not saying he/she did nothing wrong, just that as a general practice it would be a good and reasonable thing to identify what rule was violated before sanctions are imposed. What am I missing here? (P.S. There's no reason for me to "step aside" when I have no dog in this fight and I'm not an administrator.) --] (]) 17:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::You have refused to engage editors in the exact process you demand they engage in, you put forward sourcing standards which, when met, you completely dodge. On one hand you ask editors to discuss and respect consensus, on the other you wield prior consensus as a cudgel to prevent a change you don’t like and have made it abundantly clear that the sourcing standards you demand are not actually sourcing standards you’ll accept, rather, to quote an admin in your last TBAN: {{tq|There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any basis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines}}. You’re engaging in vindictive editing patterns, which evidence has also been provided for. You have refused to articulate the actual substance of prior consensus other than pointing at it and saying “consensus, consensus, consensus” and when the exact arguments that lead to said consensus (apparently, you’ve still never linked a prior discussion) are being addressed and met you ignore the editor, as multiple people here have pointed out. | |||
| :::With respect, that is not what I'm arguing. Please see below for that and the way forward from here. ] (]) 17:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::You’ve been doing this for ''years'' and were TBANed for it in 2022. Your attempt at denying it here rings hollow when multiple editors have been ''very'' explicit and provided diffs for sealioning behaviour. Im frankly a bit surprised at @]’s rapid read of the situation considering the evidence of a TBAN for the exact behaviour raised here and multiple editors chiming in saying they see a ]. ] 06:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Considering this discussion is going to get archived soon, can we refocus on finding resolution? Someone should suggest a course of action, such as a topic ban, article-protection, mediation, whatever in a new sub-section, for voting and consensus so the issue can get fixed. It's not as if all this back and forth sniping is productive - and I am concerned it will get archived without any meaningful solution, as has already occurred in the past at BLP and COIN. ] (]) 13:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm going to repeat this link which is referred to above but kind of hidden, here is the discussion that lead to the 2022 topic ban: ], just in case anyone wants to review it. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It’s also worth pointing out that their reply to @] engages in some of the direct behaviour they’re being called out for here: seemingly reasonably asking for a discussion while ignoring that what they’re asking for was already provided without them participating | |||
| :::::{{tq|You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings}} | |||
| :::::In a vacuum, this looks like a completely reasonable editor engaged in a very civil discussion around edits. In practice this was already done before this comment, and Toa refused to engage in the discussion except one about the retaliatory edits, i.e. only edits they personally felt failed verification were up for discussion, not those they felt didn’t. Here they tell me I’m free to undo the source review, but apparently only on the sources they tagged as unreliable because the ones I tagged, evidenced, and started a discussion thread about were unilaterally removed, twice, with a simple claim that it didn’t fail verification with no attempt at engaging in the discussion thread about this exact thing except to tell me I’m “very passionate about this” and I shouuld stop editing . | |||
| :::::A content dispute isn’t possible to properly adjudicate if one party is refusing to engage, then pointing to prior consensus. Toa has created a situation where they and their ephemeral prior consensus have right of review on an article. ] 08:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*As I expected, {{ping|Warrenmck}} - your claims are simply baseless. Consider this my final response to them. | |||
| ::::::*First off, let's talk about my topic ban. No, I did not get topic banned for sealioning. It was for disruptive behavior at the ] page - frankly, it was embarrassing, and the sanction was warranted. The fact you're having to resort to a years-old incident instead of right now, though, is pretty telling in terms of the merit of ''this'' report. | |||
| ::::::*Your claims of sealioning ring hollow because you ''still cannot define what POV I am pushing'' - I'm still not even convinced you know what sealioning ''is''. Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list ] and ] as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors. See the problem here? I've behaved civilly, while your general response to... any sort of disagreement is make frivolous claims against me. If anyone's behavior should be on watch here, it is ''yours'', because it's been utterly ridiculous. | |||
| ::::::*You seem extremely caught up on what I told you during your initial proposal here - how I told you your edit would not be accepted, and that while this is a topic you're clearly passionate about, it might be best for you to step away from it if you're unable to distance your personal feelings. '''I think everything I said is correct'''. Your proposal was '''bad'''. It didn't add any new information to the table, it isn't backed up by high-quality academic sources, and effectively all it's done is waste time. Like I said: your proposal may have been made in good faith, but it is not going to be accepted. And I was right! The RfC you started (after an initial discussion where nobody agreed with you, and an earlier attempt you made at an RfC that was malformed) has opposes ahead of supports by over a 2:1 margin. Your proposal to remove conservatism has been received as equally poorly. | |||
| ::::::*Similarly, your response to my source review wasn't to contest changes on the talk page or revert them - but instead, to accuse me '''here''' of "retaliation"; as far as I can tell, the only one you directly commented on at the talk page is to ''agree'' with me. | |||
| ::::::*Instead of looking inward and reconsidering your contributions, you instead started a frivolous, retaliatory AN/I board discussion that pretty much every uninvolved editor has reacted with bewilderment over. | |||
| ::::::*I am going to be blunt here: you are wasting '''my''' time, you are wasting '''your''' time, and you're wasting '''everyone's''' time here. Frankly, I think you should strongly consider limiting or ending your involvement in AP2 if your response to a basic content dispute and not getting your way is to post frivolous reports to AN/I. '''] ]''' 13:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*:As per link Liz provided above, your topic ban wasn't for disruptive behaviour on the Stacey Abrams page. That page isn't mentioned in the AIN discussion closure comments. The Republican Party article is, and the outcome was a a ban from that page and a topic ban, with the reasons cited being, among others, retaliatory posting, evidence of personal attacks, bludgeoning, and edit-warring. ] (]) 14:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*::TN, you have been very selective in what you see at article talk. In one instance you say, regarding the Republican Party's center-right designation, that there should be a moratorium on such discussions because "nothing new" has been presented. That is despite the fact that there are ''several new peer reviewed sources'' that contradict center-right and support far-right that have been presented and ignored by you. But the one time I agreed with you regarding a low-quality source you were very fast to point out my agreement in discussion. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that is leading to the complaints of sealioning. Regarding your POV it is that you want to retain the status quo at the page. You don't want to see revision, especially, to any high-level indicators of overall ideology such as infoboxes. That's fine we all have POVs. Mine is that the page is non-neutral calling the Republicans a center-right party. The problem comes when you ignore all evidence that contradicts your POV over the objection of ''multiple other editors'' and insist that no sources have been provided despite an abundance of high-quality sources being provided. ] (]) 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*:::A professional paid editor frankly should have a much more complete understanding of ], ], and ]. ] 14:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*:Nothing you said there replies to the post you responded to. This feels like a gish gallop. One with a reasonable number of falsehoods, at that. For example: | |||
| ::::::*:{{tq|Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors.}} | |||
| ::::::*:Why not, for the folks at ANI reading along, explain the ''context'' in which I said I was going to unilaterally add far-right in? Hmm? Here's a . | |||
| ::::::*::'''1.''' You failed to actually demonstrate there was a consensus, as one didn't exist in the place you directed me to. | |||
| ::::::*::'''2.''' Neither you nor Springee, who you've been tag-teaming with on this exact edit for ''years'', once articulated why it "wasn't going to be included" other than to state tautologically that it was not | |||
| ::::::*::'''3.''' In the absence of any substantive objection, ] material should be added in. | |||
| ::::::*:] doesn't assume a stonewalled refusal to engage, and if the only substance to the objection I'm getting is a vague statement about an unreferenced consensus and ] then yeah, I'm going to edit it in. I'm very used to editing in contentious article spaces and this isn't the first time I've seen this approach used to keep out changes. You can point to your civility until the cows come home but if it's masking POV editing that needs to be addressed. ] 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::*If you're going to accuse {{ping|Springee}} of something, you could at least do them the decency of tagging them. That being said - the idea I've been tag-teaming with them for years on this is silly, because the page didn't have a political position listed until late last year (something you'd know if you... read the talk page archives, like you claim you have), so I'm not exactly sure what you think has been going on here. | |||
| ::::::::*Moreover: there is, in fact, a consensus. I'm fairly confident I've pointed it out to you, but it was developed in the talk page in archives 32-34; there's not a single thread to pinpoint because it took place over numerous threads. Given what you've said above, however, I don't think you actually did ever read those discussions. The fact you're simply unable to accept that a ] exists (or, evidently, the fact that editors do not agree with your proposed changes by a 2:1 margin) is on you. | |||
| ::::::::*With that, I'm done. If you want to waste your time litigating a content dispute at AN/I, go ahead. I'm no longer engaging with this. '''] ]''' 15:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::*:Others should note that this is the exact same pattern of behaviour that Warrenmck and I both highlighted previously: selectively responding to arguments that they can refute while ignoring those they cannot, pointing to a vaguely defined local consensus without pointing to a specific decision, and a fair bit of diversion with the whole complaint of not tagging @], who is already quite thoroughly engaged in this thread. ] (]) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::*::Why are you presenting arguments that can be refuted? ] (]) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::*:::I don't think I am, being honest, especially since you and I agree on source quality and I've taken great care to base my arguments on a large number of reliable peer reviewed academic sources rather than news media. But there are multiple editors involved in this discussion. ] (]) 15:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::*::I'm generally following this discussion. I think it would be helpful if we all try to assume good faith. It's clear there is a disagreement here. If editors feel they have successfully made a case against the status quo and feel the objectors are wrong I would suggest starting a RfC to confirm the answer. That's the best process for establishing that a consensus exists. I would also note that, right or wrong, rather than pushing edits into the article when consensus etc isn't clear, those wanting change should start a RfC so we can at least finish with a declared consensus on the question. We all ready have a "far-right" RfC open so half of this fight should be addressed when that one closes. ] (]) 15:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|Warrenmck}}, you've replied to this discussion 20 times you started it. I advise you to reign it in a bit, as this has been treading towards ]. You don't need to reply to every single comment in this discussion. Just mentioning this because the constant replies actually dissuaded me from reading through it all. ] (]) 18:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sorry, I can back away ] 18:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Repeated WP:GS/AA violations == | |||
| :Entrusting the article to an uninvolved third party has already been proposed. ] (]) 15:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| On , I informed ] about the ] extended confirmed restriction and explained what it meant. | |||
| Dr. Fleischman: The issue is essentially a content dispute, which unfortunately seems to have gotten out of hand. It makes little outward sense when you consider the fact that although CorporateM has admitted to being a paid public relations representative, he insists that Bryden is not his client. CorporateM is also not a WikiProject Somalia or WikiProject Eritrea member. In other words, he has no declared connection to the topic. His stated reason for editing the page is that he was pinged to do so at COIN . Besides CorporateM's stated Position on COI, what makes the situation especially awkward is that HOgilvy is himself a paid PR rep and specifically for Bryden. HOgilvy and CorporateM also apparently previously worked on something else together . So although CorporateM in this instance appears to have volunteered his services, he was hardly a neutral volunteer to begin with. Given the foregoing, the simplest solution to the impasse would be to entrust editing of the page to a neutral third party i.e. to a genuinely uninvolved editor(s), with no prior association with any of the involved parties that might influence his/her actions. He/she would then follow the protocol suggested above at 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC). ] (]) 14:54, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :{{nao}}It sounds like there may be some common ground here, but I'm no less troubled than before by your allegations. Drmies et al: I understand this is a nasty can of worms, but it represents a potentially pervasive practice of end-running around the formalities of ] that, IMO, could damage WP and its credibility in the long run. If the allegations are true, then that has troubling ramifications not just on the accused editors but on the whole community, particularly in light of the recent related media stories about paid editing. --] (]) 18:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Would by any chance be one of the paid editing stories in question? I actually dealt directly with the "Biggleswiki" Bell Pottinger public relations representative that is profiled in that piece, and on the very ] wiki page that is also mentioned therein (another WikiProject Somalia page, incidentally). Hence, my preference for entrusting the Bryden page to uninvolved volunteer editors. ] (]) 18:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Middayexpress, I appreciate your comments. DrFleischman, there is no reason to presume that just because Corp has a fully disclosed COI in one area or another, they should have some kind of blatant COI here--that doesn't make him necessarily neutral, but that's another matter. I think that three editors have said that by now; time to listen--you can't prove that Corp has a COI here just because they say they have one somewhere else. Frankly, your claim is a bit irritating, and I think you're in a hole and should stop digging. (For instance, I think you're inflating Midday's "allegations" in order to save your first unfortunate remark here.) Let me reiterate what I indicated before: I think Midday, Corp, etc. are in principle perfectly fine as editors for this article--the case for HOgilvy is obviously different. My beef is with Midday's behavior in the discussion, which I consider to be less than helpful, but I am not claiming they should be topic-banned because they have a COI or are incapable of editing neutrally, not at all. And, again reiterating, I do not agree with how Midday seems to define "uninvolved", but that's a matter of judgment. ] (]) 20:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::True, I don't see any ''direct'' evidence of a COI, but based on Middayexpress's allegations one wouldn't expect to find any. There ''would'' be circumstantial evidence in the form of communications between and among the conspiring parties, which is what Middayexpress may have been pointing to. I agree that these communications viewed in isolation aren't a problem (and in hindsight, they might not constitute improper canvassing) but are they signs of a larger, very bad pattern? We don't know because no one cares to take the allegations seriously. I find it alarming that CorporateM's actions would receive ''zero'' scrutiny (as far as I can tell) when he/she has stated that he/she regularly edits in a paid capacity while representing his/her clients' interests exclusively and at the expense of the project. Does CorporateM get a free pass because of his/her lengthy editing history and friendly manner? Don't mind me, I'm just the canary in the coal mine. Nothing to see here. <small>This will be my last comment in this discussion.</small> --] (]) 20:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Now that would be the most obvious example of a straw man - putting words in my mouth like "at the expense of the project". When in actuality, my words are more like "It is in the client's best interest I think. The best way to ensure the durability of the content and deflect COI criticisms is to simply make sure the content itself is exceptional" regarding bringing my COI works up to Good Article status. COI has almost nothing to do with this article whatsoever, except that a PR rep brought the article to the community's attention by asking us to add more primary sources. My response instead was to delete most of the article, which relied heavily on junk sources. The COI and canvassing accusations are just the actions of an editor frustrated that consensus is not in their favor and determined to make the article reflect their point-of-view by resorting to personal attacks and conspiracy theories. Midday is the one violating WP:COI by making unfounded COI accusations in an attempt to win an argument. | |||
| Scherbatsky12 still created several articles or made expansions in areas covered by ] such as the following: ], ], ], and made poorly sourced POV additions such as: | |||
| :::::In any case, this string has now become sufficiently long and convoluted enough, full of personal attacks and a pouncing comment from Midday on every editor with input, it's becoming increasingly unlikely anyone will bother to read the entire string or care to get involved. Who would volunteer to dive head-first into so much drama? ] (]) 22:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ::::::Unfounded accusations? Your user page of longstanding stated that you are a paid editor and that your is that "if a PR person served Misplaced Pages's interests and their client's simultaneously, this would be a conflict of interest and would be unethical we serve our client's interests exclusively." Those are your own words, not mine. Pinging other users with no connection to the topic at hand is also an example of ] ("Posting an excessive number of messages to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand"). And please don't argue that you didn't ping them cause you did, and you said that you would too (viz. "I thought it would be better to just start a fresh string I can link to and ping a few editors so we can get additional input" ; "I've attempted to summarize the issues here and asked Drmies to get involved so we could have more than two editors and maybe figure things out" ). These are your own words and actions, so be sure to assume responsiblity for them. ] (]) 22:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ===Proposal=== | |||
| Per the discussion above, I suggest voluntary topic bans for Midday and myself, from article-space and Talk-space, while a new, previously uninvolved editor(s) from this board boldly make whatever changes they feel are appropriate. ] (]) 19:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| * <b>Support</b>: As nominator. Plenty of other articles for us to work on and no reason to feed the drama on this one. ] (]) 19:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Not only Scherbatsky12 was aware about, and even deleted the GS/AA notice , they still made several articles in its violation regardless and made GS/AA breaching additions that also include POV poorly sourced edits. ] (]) 16:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Conditional support''': I would support the proposal above for voluntary withdrawal from editing the page provided that it: a) applies to all the involved parties equally, b) is temporary/lasts until the issue is resolved, c) the uninvolved editor(s) has had no previous dealings with any of the involved parties, as that might serve to influence his/her actions, d) the uninvolved editor(s) for the same reason must be a volunteer and not a paid editor. ] (]) 19:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| **But that would disqualify all other editors mentioned here, no? (Including me, I suppose.) Then who's left who cares? Or, I don't see why bobrayner and Keithbob and Lexein and perhaps others should be excluded just because the two main parties are recused. I'll gladly recuse myself, since I have little interest in this biography, and I am sure ''you'' don't want me editing that article, but I see no grounds to disqualify the others--except, again, for HOgilvy who, setting aside the presumption of good faith I usually have, should probably not be editing this article. ] (]) 20:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::As a Bryden official public relations representative, ] bars HOgilvy from editing the page directly. Keithbob and Lexein were both pinged to the page by CorporateM. Bobrayner was not involved; however, he appears to be a ] member along with CorporateM. To ensure neutrality, the uninvolved editor(s) shouldn't have any previous associations or dealings with any of the involved parties (myself included). The ] seems a neutral place to select a candidate(s) from. ] (]) 20:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not acceptable. I see no valid reason to bar those editors from editing the article. ] (]) 22:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::(Um, COI PR article editing by ] for ''small'' corrections with ] sources, and COI PR discussion on talk page for everything else, would be appropriate, IMHO). --] (]) 00:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Keithbob and Lexein participated in the talk page discussion after being pinged by CorporateM. Keithbob also edited the page itself. That makes them involved editors. This proposal is for a new, previously uninvolved editor(s). ] (]) 22:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{facepalm|Look,|45px}} ], with respect, you're really going about this all wrong. Look at my edit history. Take me to any disciplinary or sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry noticeboard you like. Not only will any kind of charge you could possibly fabricate be ''instantly'' thrown out, but you'd better be wary of ]. I'll edit any article I want, and I'll discuss on any article talk page I want, because I've '''''never''''' been article-banned, topic-banned, blocked, or disciplined ''anywhere'', in seven years here. I'll delete claims sourced by unreliable or biased sources ''everywhere I find them'', because ''you don't get to turn Misplaced Pages into your own personal attack forum.'' And I'll support on-policy edits by ''any editor I choose'', based on my experience and familiarity with relevant policies, namely ]. If it takes this ANI for you to learn how to edit neutrally, so be it. Learn or be banned, that's my advice to you. Don't say I didn't warn you: I warned you directly that you really wouldn't like it if I got involved. Do you know why? Because you're wrong about nearly every claim you've made, and I'm ''not'' wrong. --] (]) 00:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment:''' I have frequently worked with Corporate M. When he edits for a client, he is scrupulously neutral, though his style still sometimes shows traces of his long experience in the PR industry,. He also edits more generally, andI respect his courageous willingness --especially for someone himself known for his declared COI editing-- to work in areas which have been thoroughly disrupted by others editors with a declared or undeclared COI. When he does work in these areas I trust both his objectivity and judgement, including his awareness of the problems that may be present in other people's editing. I have not myself investigated the sources in this area, but if anyone can straighten them out, he can do so, and so far from banning him from the subject, I think we should be encouraging him to take it in hand. ] (]) 00:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not that my COI work is actually related to this article, but I am both flattered, but hesitant to accept ]'s compliments. Sometimes I over-compensate for my COI and other times it shows more than I think. But where I do have a COI, I lean on other editors to keep me on the straight and narrow and they rarely fail me. Since I do not have a COI here, it's a bit of an offshoot topic. If someone wants to discuss my COI work, they should start a separate string at ]. ] (]) 00:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ** In addition to ], ] and myself, other editors like ], ] and ], have been active on the talk page. Maybe they would like to comment on this situation.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 00:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *** Also note that concerns for this article have been posted recently at BLPN by ] on and by CorporateM on .--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 00:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ***None of this has anything to do with "pinging" or any sort of deliberate ganging up by experienced editors. It '''''only''''' has to do with awful bias by an intransigent editor, PR editing done without the cleanest possible hands, and a bunch of long time editors (including one open PR editor editing cleanly outside his PR area) stepping in to try to clean up the toxic, biased, badly sourced mess. --] (]) 00:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' voluntary topic ban by Middayexpress, voluntary article-edit ban by ]. By wanting ''everyone'' out of the pool, Middayexpress assumes bad faith, and wholeheartedly declares the pool ''contaminated'', and so ''de rigeur'' supports reverting the article back to before the "firing" edits were added. You don't evacuate the pool and then just leave the turd floating in it. Alternatively, Middayexpress either trusts experienced editors who understand BLP and writing neutrally, or not. If so, ] will voluntarily self-topic ban. If not, then we know Middayexpress's agenda. What Middayexpress fails to understand that even the worst news can be presented neutrally, and attributed to the source, so the reader can immediately glean the apparent bias in the source. See? Done. One sentence. In my opinion. --] (]) 01:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Even after this report, Scherbatsky12 still continues violating the extended confirmed restriction . ] (]) 22:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Proposed topic ban of MiddayExpress=== | |||
| ::Given them a on the matter. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * <b>Support</b> as nominator for persistent counter-consensus editing and disruptive Talk page participation, such as abusive COI accusations, ABF, personal attacks, etc. As mentioned above, I would volunteer for an IBAN myself to reduce drama, but it doesn't seem like it would matter - being that I can't force others to volunteer for one and if we all the involved editors withdrew, there would be no one left to edit the article. ] (]) 01:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] thank you, but aren't we over a warning here? I've already left a notice on their talk back in October and explained what it meant. They still violated the restriction numerous times and even violated again just hours ago after this report. The WP:AA3 topic area has stricter rules enforcement than most other topics, and the behavior of Scherbatsky12 isn't encouraging. ] (]) 00:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] after violating the restriction while this report is ongoing , and your final warning, they've done it again in the same article: . It's evident the user isn't competent enough to follow rules in contentious topics such as the AA3. ] (]) 21:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I apologize for the misunderstanding. What I do not understand is whether the occupation of Kalbajar by Armenian armed forces (1993) is considered controversial or problematic (). I have merely noted that Hokuma Aliyeva relocated due to the occupation of Kalbajar (). The rest resulted from careless translation and will not be repeated again. | |||
| ::This isn't about if Scherbatsky12 thinks their one edit is right or wrong: the point is they shouldn't have been editing info covered by the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction at all until reaching extended confirmed rank. The fact they still don't understand this is a clear indication of incompetence in a highly contentious topic area at that. Not only this, they continued violating the restriction while being reported here. And additionally, they're now attributing "the rest" of their POV edits to "careless translation", which is bizarre: how one doesn't even check what articles/edits they're making before publishing "translations" especially in a topic area that they were is contentious and while violating a restriction they were aware about too? After their comment here, it's not reassuring that this wouldn't happen again and is further clear to me that Scherbatsky12 isn't ] enough to edit in a contentious topic area such as the AA3. ] (]) 15:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Caribbean Hindustani == | |||
| == User:Kingfrogger666 and disruption == | |||
| *{{articlelinks|Caribbean Hindustani}} | |||
| {{archive top|1=Article is now fully protected two days by ]. Please use the talk page. ] (]) 13:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC) }} | |||
| Regarding: {{Userlinks|Kingfrogger666}} | |||
| This is probably not the appropriate page, but I couldn't find a better one. If an admin may have a look at the version history of the ] article - there's two quite new editors battling out a dispute since December. Maybe some administrative guidance would help them. Thanks and kind regards, ] 18:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I have been attempting to revamp an article - ]. I acted boldy by blanking the article and started to add actual sourced information. A fan of the show decided to halt my efforts by reverting without an explanation. I just removed out a mass of poorly sourced information and around three paragraphs of inaccurately sourced content that also needed copy editing. The article had been tagged in the past and the issues were never addressed. Kingfrogger666 is no stranger to me on Misplaced Pages as they have often disrupted many articles in the same area. My concerns went unaddressed for some time with the user blanking their talk page - removing friendlies and warnings. I have observed them as recent as today - add in fake sources. Adding information and sneaking in a source dressed up to fool the casual reviewer. Check the source and the information is no where to be seen in the source. They keep adding original research to articles, usually trivial things - but all the same disrupt and mislead readers. Their user page has a list of fictional characters, but some characters in the list are made up by Kingfrogger666. The fantasy even extends to their own user page. | |||
| :Per the notice at the top of this page, you were supposed to alert both editors of this thread. I've done so for you. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This: , may or may not be helpful. I'd also add that I can't force someone to discuss something on the talkpage: ] (]) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::That would make sense if you'd tried discussing on the talk page, but you didn't head there until Tarbly asked you to. You can't force someone to discuss something but you can try discussing which you haven't done until now. Expecting the other party to start a discussion is rarely good editor behaviour especially when you are edit warring. Instead it's like a lame kids 'they started it' defence. The only way you can prove an editor refuses to discuss on the talk page is by trying otherwise you can both be counted as refusing to discuss. To be clear except the first sentence, this applies to both of you. ] (]) 00:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have added several sources and journel and official government and NGO sites that work on it to prove what I am writing. But that user dont have source to prove it and its just his opinion which he had written. | |||
| :He also wrote his opinion on Hindustani page which got removed by the admin as it was false information but the same thing when I added on caribbean Hindustani page, he reverted my changes. If writing opinion as a fact and that too without any source and also the source provided dont match with the information. | |||
| :I had talk with the user and explained several times in the edit and on talk page as well. I have explained everything which I added with source unlike him. ] (]) 04:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Potential block evasion by IP 211.184.93.253 (old IP 58.235.154.8) == | |||
| They have also attempted to engage in an edit war on ]. I said that I would seek a block and they logged out and continued reverting with their IP address. As you may notice, contribs remain in the same area of interest, article connected to soap operas. I really think they cannot be trusted to hold an account. I find it disheartening that I must take the time to explain another's bad behavior rather than spend the time doing what I like most - editing and improving an actual article. | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocks guaranteed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| The IP ] was banned on December 29, 2024 (6 month block duration) for disruptive editing. To be specific, they would write in a delay of a Starship launch by exactly one month, without any citations. | |||
| They had been banned before (two month ban) for the same behaviour. | |||
| An example of a dressed up source would be: Another editor read the source, reverted when they noticed it did not support the claim | |||
| A few examples that I sourced in my : | |||
| User does not leave edit summaries so there is no need to pull up instances - just see edit history. | |||
| IP ] is now repeating this pattern, in what appears to be block-evasion. | |||
| See the edit history of Clare Devine for evidence of edit warring - they hit 4. | |||
| Out of the five edits made by this IP: | |||
| They remained inactive for a while - now they are back with the same old behavior and I just need to report it because it really is not fair anymore. Too much to tolerate. There is no telling this editor - you either get blanked or retaliation with your edits being reverted.] <small>]</small> 02:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Made before 58.235.154.8 ban, changed Flight 8 launch date from Early 2025 to February 2025. Doesn't add a source. | |||
| :Discuss it on ] for a start. If that fails, then there's ]. Not sure why you think you need an admin right now though? ] (]) 03:25, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :P.S. ] (]) 03:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Delays ] on ] from February 2025 to March 2025. No source added. | |||
| ===Clare Devine=== | |||
| {{user|82.8.226.194}} | |||
| Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added. | |||
| Continues to add unref'd info despite warnings ] ] (]) 04:04, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :It's ''very'' likely {{user|Kingfrogger666}} ] (]) 04:22, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches, again from February to March. No source added. | |||
| :: Anon here is the problem, not the registered editor. Anon has been blanking material rather than tagging it. Anon has been escalating rather than discussing. ] (]) 06:54, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added. | |||
| :::Really unhelpful. Kingfrogger666 is the problem. I was all set to completely source the article. But I was stopped in doing so by Kingfrogger666. I question why established members who follow rules are effectively enabling this disruptive individual. A full scale edit war has been caused by previously uninvolved editors. I was loathe to start an edit war, I came here for help - now no one can edit the article because a rather large edit war has resulted in the article being locked. | |||
| This is either a similarly disruptive editor, or more likely, a ban evader continuing their vandalism. Either way, they are ]. ] (]) 19:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Walter Gorlitz you are voicing support for a unresponsive editor, who causes edit wars, does not use edit summaries, blatantly blocks progression, adds fake sources, adds original research. Where is the understanding. It would take fifteen minutes of an admin or editor's time. The second anon (yes, a new IP became involved) was restoring sourced material atleast. Kingfrogger666 kept resotring 22000 bytes of unsourced data. Disgusting. | |||
| :Additionally, geolocate places both IP addresses in the same region, which makes it quite likely that they are evading a ban. | |||
| :::As for the suggestion we discuss it via the article talk page. The whole point is that Kingfrogger666 does not respond! No one is looking into it and I am banging my head against the brick wall.] <small>]</small> 11:27, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| : ] (]) 19:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. ] (]) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] ] (]) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks! ] (]) 23:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) (added after discussion close) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Danny5784 == | |||
| * ...and for those counting at home, there are 2 ] reports open on this very case <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 11:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{userlinks|Danny5784}} does not seem to have the maturity and judgement to be a productive editor. Despite ] and efforts by multiple editors to explain things to them, they are continuing to create unneeded pages. Of the 18 articles they've created, 9 have been redirected (mostly at AfD), 2 deleted, and 4 currently have unanimous delete/redirect consensus at AfD. Three of their most recent creations are particularly noteworthy: | |||
| * After ] was declined by {{u|Stuartyeates}}, and I ] that such pages are not notable, Danny5784 ]. | |||
| * Danny5784 created ] with poor sourcing, much of it from a user-generated wiki. After {{u|Djflem}} wrangled it into a useful list, Danny5784 created both ] and ] apparently as ]. | |||
| Danny5784 also has issues with copyright: they uploaded a large number of now-deleted files on Commons and ], then did ] here, plus using blatantly false non-free content criteria. | |||
| With 460 edits over 15 months, Danny5784 is past the point where these can just be dismissed as newbie mistakes. They are a ] editor who is unwilling or unable to follow basic norms such as notability, reliable sourcing, and copyright. Until they demonstrate more maturity, I believe a prohibition from page creation (article, template, and file upload) is needed. ] (]) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*I'm closing this report due to the full protection. But if the dispute resumes in two days it looks to me that blocks may be necessary. So please explain your positions on the talk page. ] (]) 13:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| <!--{{hat|1=A wild ] appears. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}}--> | |||
| {{archive bottom}} | |||
| :Incorrect and no. No prohibition is necessary. You would need to teach and show him how it is done. | |||
| :Don't even try to prohibit him. Over 15 months of editing, you still don't even accept it?! What is wrong with you? Your more stricter than ] so, knock it off and NO PROBITION! And also, he's trying his best to do it right. ] (]) 23:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. ] (]) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. ] (]/]) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear {{confirmed}} result.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. ] (]) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{ping|Liz}} I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <!--{{hab}}--> | |||
| :::::::No problem, ever, with unarchiving, ]. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I just try to help run a clean ship. And no worries! As far as I can tell the template's working, but will leave this unhatted given that. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:26, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::As the editor who declined the article above at AfC, I'd encourage admins to shepherd young newbies towards AfC and similar venues. It's what we're hear for (if anything I should have given better comments in my decline). ] (]) 08:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Editor harassment by User:Technotopia == | |||
| :Clerical note that this user is not the ] DannyS712. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User LivinAWestLife vandalizing Republican Party article == | |||
| Almost immediately, {{User|Technotopia}} has made a name for themselves at one of the most hotly-contested (or ], depending on your point of view) discussions on the project, ]. An anon IP left a ] on the talk page that I removed as disruptive. Technotopia with a bad-faith edit summary. Despite other editors' similar concerns, Technotopia violated 3RR and was blocked for 31 hours. | |||
| {{u|LivinAWestLife}} made a large change to the Republican Party article which changed the ideology of the party from the consensus Center-right to fascist. They quickly then changed the text to "far-right" . Any seasoned editor should know such behavior is beyond reckless and clearly disruptive. ] (]) 00:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| After the block ended, the editor began responding more constructively, but then on the talk page of {{User|LedRush}}, a frequent contributor to the Genesis/Mega Drive article. LedRush removed the comment, but then Technotopia decided to . As a ], I and on their talk page telling them that this type of harassment would not be tolerated. Apparently the warning has gone unheeded based on and . At a minimum, 3RR has been crossed again, but then there's this apparent harassement of LedRush that needs to be taken into consideration. | |||
| :Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back. ] (]) 00:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| --''']]''' 04:43, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Vandalism is vandalism and is ''not'' funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a ''very'' low tolerance for trolls, ''especially'' in contentious topics. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also worth noting that ]. Regards, ]. (] | ]). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There are several people who feel the current discussion of political ideology of the Republican party is non-neutral. Disruptive drive-by edits actually make correcting such problems harder rather than easier. So please stop. ] (]) 12:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::There was over half an hour in which the edits in question were live before they were reverted by a third party so "minutes at most" doesn't seem very applicable. If you ''really'' have a primal urge to vandalize an article, there is a correct way to do so without disrupting the wiki - see ]. ] (]) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Extremely unbecoming to do something like this during a major political transition. This causes thousands of people to further distrust Misplaced Pages. It could even be outright dangerous. Even more ridiculous to hide behind humor. I'm not anyone important but I want to convey to you directly how outrageous I find this to be. ] (]) 02:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Couldn't you have just used inspect element? ] (]) 02:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::You're taking a ''very'' long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. ] (]) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «''Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back''» and there are no consequences? ] (]) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If there's no further disruption and they've recognized what they did was wrong and committed to not do it again then a trout is likely sufficient. Of course if there's further disruption that would be a different matter entirely. ] (]) 16:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::They've gotten a level four vandalism warning and are now put at the end of their ]. In my opinion, everything is in order here. Per above, disruption either won't continue, and if it does, further sanctions will follow. ] (]) 16:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Per the idea that blocks etc should be preventative not punitive, I agree that no further action seems like the correct option. Certainly LivinAWestLife is/should be clearly aware that their actions were not acceptable and I agree that they slid to the end of the rope. However, absent additional actions like this we are probably done. ] (]) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Editor repeatedly reverting edits == | |||
| :I agree completely with this summary.] (]) 05:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Cambial_Yellowing}} | |||
| This editor is starting ] again, just reverted , and has done this before with these edits and , repeatedly.! | |||
| Hello <br /> | |||
| I tried to communicate on ] but editor just went away! | |||
| 1- The users are canvassing and I pointed this out to them on user "ledrush"'s talk page<br /> | |||
| For such behavior the editor has been | |||
| 2- The user "ledrush" tried to hide this fact by censoring my post which I reverted (1st revert) <br /> | |||
| 3- The user "mcdoob" decides to interject himself, undoing my post and posting a threatening message on my talk page and accusing me of harassment which you can see by the post I made never happened....<br /> | |||
| 4- I reverted "mcdoob"'s post (2nd revert)<br /> | |||
| 5- User "ledrush" again tries to hide the issue of canvassing be censoring the post, Then leaves a message on my talk page accusing me of insulting another user, he never specifies which user and I never insulted anyone, at this point the only message I have ever posted was "Canvassing much". So far I have been accused of Harassment, insults and personal attacks in edit summaries, none of which have occurred and the accusations against my character can only be seen as harassment. <br /> | |||
| 6- I create a new post on user "ledrush"'s talk page clearly pointing out the canvassing and collusion he and the other American editors currently involved in the naming dispute are engaged in, this is not a third revert as user "mcdoob" alleges, and yet again user "ledrush" censors this post in an attempt to hide his and others policy violations.. <br /> | |||
| 7- After this I get threats from user "ledrush" on my talk page and user "mcdoob" comes here to look for help with his bias viewpoint. <br /> | |||
| I never violated 3RR as the edits show, I pointed out users canvassing and have been attacked, threatened, had my post's removed and then they reported me here for issues which never occurred. If an admin could look at this issue closely you will see what has actually occurred] (]) 05:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| This editor last time also pushed me to violate ] , | |||
| Also the "bad faith comment" to which user "mcdoob" refers to on the Mega Drive talk page was not bad faith at all, it just went against the North American narrative so they chose to censor it, and I reverted it as it belongs on the talk page] (]) 05:40, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| While i was trying to improve the ] article by moving criticism out of the theology section to separate criticism section, as per | |||
| ] where it is clearly mentioned | |||
| "''In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title, for example, if there is a large body of critical material, and if independent secondary sources comment, analyze or discuss the critical material.''" | |||
| :Just to be clear, the insult I mentioned involved Sexycook, a fellow editor of the Genesis article, though often critical of my views. He knew I was involved in all previous discussions about the article's title, and despite our differences of opinion, told me of a new discussion. Furthermore, I took insult to be accused of being a biased "Yank". But all this is largely irrelevant to the issue here.] (]) 05:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Because, before this, i was reading similar article, ] and the criticism section make it easy to understand. | |||
| ::Blocked. Technotopia, for another time, please note the instructions at the top of the page: "Please include diffs to help us find the problem you are reporting." Usertalk harassment is unacceptable, and I'm particularly unimpressed by your sudden interest in the niceties of talkpage behaviour rules when they work to your own advantage, known as ]. I've blocked you for 48 hours for edit warring and userpage harassment. ] | ] 05:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| :::I think it should be noted that this user is an alt of and and probably a few others.--]] 06:02, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The ] is indeed strong in this one; I'm not sure I've seen using an account to evade an IP block before. Suggest the block be extended to match the block on 92.238.252.159 at a minimum as there is no doubt whatsoever it's the same person and they are blatantly ]. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 02:28, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I don't know why the editor doesn't understand ] and ] are not the same thing, which is common sense, but I was punished for using my common sense before, and now this again! ] (]) 02:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| :Hello, ], | |||
| I recently had some problems with this user, because he is reverting edits without giving a reason and without answering in his talk page and communicating, the only thing I received from him was a on my talk page which is not in English. This user is creating a lot of sourceless pages and making more problems. | |||
| :First ] is the noticeboard to report edit-warring, secondly, you haven't provided any diffs of edit warring and, first and foremost, no one can "push" you to violate our guidelines on edit-warring, take responsibility for your own mistakes. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| but these are not the reason I'm reporting him here, I found he is the same person as ] who had a history of making and all of them are blocked. he also had other multiple accounts still active like ] and ] and ] and probably much more. This user previously had. in Persian[REDACTED] and all of them are blocked now. he is still breaking copyright rules by repeatedly adding copyrighted pictures in wikicommons. I don't know if this place is a good place or not but I thought I had to report him somewhere. ] (]) 18:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Also, ANI should be where you come when other methods of communication have failed. Have you started a discussion on the article talk page or posted to their user talk page about your differences? Give it a shot before coming to ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :And apparently he thought he had to remove your report, see , which gives an unpromising first impression. I don't understand his comment on your ANI notification,, but I presume that's not a Wikilove message either. Thanks for reporting this, Mohsen, but you need to explain how you know he's User:پارسا آملی. Please either file a report at ] or provide some evidence here. My Persian is non-existent and my understanding of sports articles may be even less, so I won't try to deal with this, but whoever does will need to know the basis for your statement that Luispedros is a sock. If it's convincing he'll be indefinitely blocked pretty promptly, I'm sure. ] | ] 00:17, 20 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| ::Sorry@] actually before this, i went on your to discuss and waited for days, and about previous revertes i have provided . ] (]) 02:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: oh yes it wasn't a wikilove message, he is telling me to be "man" and talk in Persian with him. lol at least better than his message in my talk page advising me to go to a mental hospital lol. apparently he can't write in English but based in his responses he does understand at least. | |||
| :::Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's '''your''' action, not theirs. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::thanks, I filed a report at ], I also provided my evidences here for them ], I think it's a little long and I can write everything here but you can find it by comparing his usernames in wikifarsi and wikienglish and wikicommons. He had '''Ir92''' in WikiFarsi and the same username exists in wikicommons doing the exact thing as this user '''Luispedros''' which also exists in wikicommons. and all of a sudden user became VERY active in English[REDACTED] when wikifarsi admins blocked all of his accounts in wikifarsi. ] (]) 00:57, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::They are the one who started removing/reverting repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are . Plese see ] edit history. ] (]) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Right. Thanks for reporting it on SPI, I hope it'll be dealt with quickly there. To be going on with, I've warned him about removing this report and about the personal attacks. ] | ] 14:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| :::::It's good you have accepted that mistake, but you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen again, no matter what another editor "starts". ] is a bright line. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Once again he tried to manipulate my report this time by narrowly changing it despite your warning. also he left me a in ] in my talk page which proves my claim for sure (even though I had no doubt). something like defending his behavior in wikiFarsi and blaming everybody except himself. ] (]) 22:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, Sokoreq, that was my fault, I'm behind responding to talk page messages, I apologize for that. But I didn't mean that you should post a template on Cambial Yellowing's user talk page that was more suitable for a new editor (and they have been editing for over 5 years), I meant actually talking through a discussion. I can see that another editor already posted on their User talk page about the article talk page, you could have joined that discussion or posted on the article talk page. Again, my apologies about my lack of responsiveness. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| not insult these words are not true] (]) 21:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::They edit in group, while i started a discussion but then first editor didn't explanation much and went for a week, again today I tried on ] but didn't receive any reply, I apologize for any inconvenience but this is very new for me. ] (]) 02:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I've just blocked per ]. Unfortunately, I don't think this user is competent enough to constructively contribute to the English language Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 02:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I respect they are senior editors, but I don't understand what they are upto and there is some discussion on the ] for months is hard to understand. The talk page is messy; it's difficult to understand who is who and what is what? ] (]) 02:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :] is related to this. Sokoreq's response to being reverted was to baselessly accuse an editor of COI and harassment . When someone else reverted them they too were accused of harassment . After the COIN discussion didn't go their way, they continued to double down on COI accusations: . This latest report is more of the same. Despite being directed there numerous times by several editors, they still have not posted on the article's associated talk page - ever. I suggest that a ] sanction is appropriate here. - ] (]) 03:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == the article http://en.wikipedia.org/David_Bergstein should be removed immediately as it does not qualify any of the rules of[REDACTED] == | |||
| ::? <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue">''']'''</span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue">]</span> 03:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] Yeh, I went to the ] noticeboard a week ago. It's closed now, because I didn't have evidence to prove. and the editor was also repeatedly reverting without explanation and suddenly went for a week. I have discussed the matter with that editor on my . What do you want to prove through this? ] (]) 03:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Sokoreq, that article talk page is quite an immense discussion on one specific aspect of the article that has nothing to do with your interests so I'd just start a new discussion there. I also see that you just removed a discussion on your user talk page with ] from your own talk page and asked them not to post on it any longer. You will not get very far on a collaborative editing project if you refust to actually communicate with editors you have disagreements with. Actual discussion, with opinions, arguments, diffs and sources with other editors is how consensus is formed on this project. But you can't seek to eliminate every editor you disagree with or you will not be editing here for a long time. It can be challenging but every editor on this project has to find a way to work with editors who have differences with and that is usually accomplished, not through coming to a noticeboard but by presenting a solid argument on an article talk page and convincing other editors that your position is stronger. But ANI doesn't exist to get rid of other editors who revert you. If edit-warring is an actual problem, which doesn't seem to be the case here, then post a formal case at ]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I read over ] discussion and I haven't said anything to you that you weren't already told at COIN. What is your resistance to having a discussion on the article talk page? That should be your first destination when you have a disagreement, not ANI. Now, I'm going to stop because I'm just repeating advice that you've already been given. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Liz, this is really helpful. I hope they will communicate.! Thank you for creating space on the discussion page. I will keep this in mind for next time. And for formal cases, I will post on ]. Thanks again ] (]) 04:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Usually, when an editor returns to their edit war after being blocked, without once contributing to the article talk page discussions, they are blocked. | |||
| this is just amazing how this article has managed to stay this long with such poor sources of references, infact there are no references in the public domain for what the article says about this person, only and very negative references exist, wiki article is the only publically available positive article about this highly negative and controversial figure | |||
| please have multiple administrators decide on this subject. | |||
| http://en.wikipedia.org/David_Bergstein <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:48, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| I think a good case can be made for Sokoreq is ] , those diffs () show an inability to work with others and take accountability for their own actions. The subsequent ], ] and and the behavior that led to this discussion show that it's unlikely to end without further intervention. --] (]) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :This article was gutted today by a user. I've restored the text, but I'm going to (re-)remove any of the unsourced sections of the article. That said, this isn't a matter for administrator intervention; this can be handled at ] and/or with the deletion policy. —''']''' (]) 19:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :This sort of thing should be handled by placing tags on the page.--] (]) 21:05, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: NO, it should be handled ]. You really need to stop making such uninformed comments that simply confuse people <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 22:08, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, but the OP did not sound like they wanted to personally fix it. They were asking for others to fix it.--] (]) 22:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::: You need to assume that's because they don't know how. It only takes 5 seconds of research to find what c.fred found ... and then fix it <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 22:20, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Let's remember that while ], it doesn't ] if the only information on somebody or something in ] is, itself, negative. <small>(Not saying that's necessarily the case here, but it is something that seems oft forgotten, so I figured I'd mention it.)</small> - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 02:24, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't know what you're up to, but , I was just trying to understand your disagreements. But, you went away for days. I don’t have anything personal against you now, and I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above. I will discuss any future disagreements on the article's talk page. Thanks ] (]) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <- The IP is registered to Pegasus Blue Star Fund whose owner is apparently in a dispute with David Bergstein (see for example, or , a source the IP erased while labeling the subject as a "failed film producer"). I don't think the IP should be allowed anywhere near the article and they should probably be blocked.<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 14:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq| I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above}} That's not what you did, and that's disruptive. --] (]) 00:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :What is editor is referring to does appear to be correct about the notability and source ability of this subject. I spent last 30 minutes searching for the movies listed, a lot of them on the list cannot be found as movies and some of them do not even have the subject as associated with the movie. Outside of legal disputes there are no other independent notable references available on this subject. I agree this subject does not meet the standards. I will research more and post my comments later what more if any I find. Initial search turned up nothing not a single notable reference.--] (]) 19:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::], can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There doesn't appear to be any olive branch being offered. The comments from Sokoreq, here and elsewhere, have me wondering if {{they are|Sokoreq}} using an AI or auto-translator to communicate with us. I see very little understand of what's being written, less still of actual policy, all while downplaying or ignoring, often misrepresenting, {{their|Sokoreq}} own behavior. --] (]) 02:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Trolling at ] == | |||
| :I have just started editing and this is the first subject I have started working on, so I am working real hard to earn respect and do the right thing, after researching David Bergstein for last 3 hours on every public forum, I only come up with law suits and negative press, there is not a single independent article that shows how David Bergstein has done the facts his article claimed, for instance the article claimed he is a experienced Investment banker with over 3b in deals, there is no public source that can validate that claim, it looks like a PR firm has been hired to clean up the image and a positive article with self-proclaiming facts is the only positive article in the public space. Wiki has not become a platform for advertisement, this article should be deleted immediately, I say this after a very through research. Even the movies claimed in the list, when you click on those movies Wiki have negative news associated to David Bergstein for example click on the film “Nailed” in his list and follow the news reference under “Nailed” --] (]) 20:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Done (for now). - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{IPvandal|2600:1700:9366:e040:506c:d71c:7e0b:3528}} | |||
| ] please. ] ] 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :]? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 17:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No response there; strictly speaking it might not be the most obvious vandalism in any case.--] ] 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have requested protection for the talk page. I'll see how it goes. I have suspicion of meatpuppetry/canvassing from 4chan. ] (]) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Semi-protected now, thanks ] ] (]) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * IP blocked and page protected for a short period. I'm guessing this first month we will see a lot of these types of editors. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **{{ping|Isabelle Belato|Acroterion}} Needs talk page access yanked too.--] ] 18:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **:Done. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Meatpuppetry/tag teaming at Conor Benn == | |||
| ::There is a much simpler explanation for your presence that has a probability of being accurate that is orders of magnitude greater than your explanation for your presence, simply on the basis on Occam's razor. But the existence of a Scribd account called nlfestival that has published several documents related to the dispute with Bergstein, including a transcription of a taped conversation, indicates that you have almost certainly been less than forthcoming about your connection to this subject and any potential conflict of interest. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 13:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Resolved. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{articlelinks|Conor Benn}} | |||
| ], so bringing this here. ] and I engaged in an edit war at ], which began as a content dispute but is now more of conduct issue. Less than 12 hours after he was blocked (for ), ] shows up as a brand new single-purpose account to make the for the "win", whilst predictably . How is this not ]? | |||
| I'd be happy to hash out the original content dispute at ] and see if anything needs tweaking at ], but not when there's obvious bad faith tag teaming going on. ] (]) 19:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Anon IP adding uncited info to many pages on a massive scale, recently == | |||
| :It's an LTA trying to cause trouble. Blocked now.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? ] (]) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've restored it to the pre-socking version and {{U|Daniel Case}} has semi-protected the article.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Appreciated. Discussion at the Project forthcoming. ] (]) 20:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Potential Block Evasion by IP 47.67.231.5 (Original IP range 47.69.0.0, first sock IP 80.187.75.118) == | |||
| The IP editor ] has been adding tons of info to a wide variety of music-related pages. Some of this info may be good, some of it clearly isn't, but it's difficult to tell as the info is never, not even once, given a citation of any kind. I tried to revert a bunch of the edits but it's like plugging a finger into a dyke. I don't have the time to do all of them. | |||
| An ] is behaving similary to an ] blocked by last November. The orignal block was later extended due to ]. | |||
| Another detail that seems to justify at least a short block of this IP is that they consistently add a large amount of info, then make a small, inconsequential edit, in order to make it slightly more difficult to undo their first, substantive edit. | |||
| The location of these IP addresses are all quite similar, which I have attached below. | |||
| The IP's ] already had notes from at least two other editors asking them to stop adding uncited info anonymously (and I added one) but that seems to have had no effect. | |||
| Not sure what to do except to post a notice here and recommend a short block; if nothing else, that will at least get the editor's attention. | |||
| ] (]) 02:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Not being familiar with the procedure of reporting this form of disruptive editing I do support this action being taken with the above mentioned editor. Maybe it will have an effect on his future edits. ] (]) 12:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| : |
] (]) 22:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :: |
:EDIT: The IP is now <s>banned</s> blocked, with the original IP's <s>ban</s> block extended by another three months. ] (]) 23:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::<small>] - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::Thank you for the correction on my wording. ] (]) 23:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Harassment and personal attacks == | ||
| {{u|Riventree}} called another editor and myself a , said to the editor who approved the DYK, and called me an . ] (]) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| They are currently edit-warring on ]. This is not unusual, as they are a ] that does nothing but edit that one article contentiously. As a result, they've been blocked a couple of times for edit-warring, but have shown no signs of repentance, or even awareness. They really, really hate fractional reserve banking, and that makes them unable, or at least unwilling, to follow policy. They go away for a while, but always come back to do the same sort of damage to the exact same article. Is there something that can be done about them on a more permanent basis? ] (]) 03:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Indef'd. Completely unacceptable behavior. ] (]/]) 23:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but ''indef'' for a user who ''has'', generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked ''once''? ] (]) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. ] (]/]) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It did. And 'indefinite' is not 'infinite'; once they acknowledge their error, the block can be lifted, but not before. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Agreed. I would further posit that a user who has been around for fifteen years really ought to know not go on the attack like this. There are ways to discuss content you don't agree with, there was no need for the blown gasket here. I edit conflicted with the above I also was going to add that Indefinite does not mean infinite, they can request an unblock as soon as right now. ] ] 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. ] (]) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this: {{tq|'twas a crime of passion (politics got the better of me)- I really would hate for Misplaced Pages to get drawn into the petty politics of the USA)}}. Since when was a DYK about feminism about petty American politics? I don't usually deal with unblock requests so I'll leave this for another admin, but I don't think they entirely understand why their behaviour is considered problematic. ] ] 01:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It looks to me like they understand ''what'' they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the ''why'' (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I tried to see if I could convince them to understand and apologize for it, and I'm confused about why a long-time editor would go off the rails about feminism or politics. It wasn't fruitful. I wish you admins good luck. ] (]) 02:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Per our own internal classification (e.g. ]/]) it is formally a ], and the article ] is in the {{tl|political ideologies}} navbox. While it might initially seem confusing that a thing called "feminism" could be a political subject, it has been one for about the last century (e.g. suffrage is a central aspect of politics, and civil rights for women in the United States were often pursued through legislation and jurisprudence). Moreover, many issues that do not directly involve the apparatus of government are often referred to as "political" if they are the center of substantial cultural discourse or disagreement. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I have heard people use the phrase "track down" in colloquial speech for decades, and in the overwhelming majority of cases (when applied to a person) it means to get in contact with, or locate: | |||
| ::::::*"The machine in booth 7 is shorting out again, I'm going to see if I can track down the repairman." | |||
| ::::::*"Someone track down the QC inspector and tell her these parts are out of spec." | |||
| ::::::*"When we get into town, we should track down a food truck." | |||
| ::::::I am not really sure why these sentences would, ''prima facie'', constitute a violent threat. Perhaps if the speaker was loading a shotgun and wearing a blood-spattered "I HATE FOOD TRUCKS!" t-shirt -- but absent that, I would assume they just wanted a sandwich. In this case, I would assume the obvious straightforward meaning of the person's sentence -- that the person responsible should be admonished, or complained to, or sanctioned. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :So okay, I looked up the hook. Apparently, it was this: | |||
| ::... that the ''']''' of stories can focus on female characters to reflect the ] perspective? | |||
| :From time to time we do have some DYK hooks that are controversial or edgy, so I was expecting something like that, but this is not that. | |||
| :I must confess that not only does this DYK hook not offend me, I am not even sure what part of it (the DYK hook) someone else might find offensive (the DYK hook). The best I can come up with is that bro was having a really bad day and decided to randomly flip out at the first thing that he found mildly politically annoying. This is really not great behavior, and probably it warrants some warning or admonishment or block. However, if someone has been editing for sixteen years with no problem, I feel like this is not a sign of utter incompatibility with a collaborative editing project, and I am inclined to grant the unblock request, as they have explained pretty succinctly what the problem is and I am fairly convinced they will not do it again. On this same page, a few sections up (]), it seems like we have something of a recent precedent when someone is engaging in blatant personal attacks with regard to the topic of feminism: they are handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology, refuse to do so multiple times, and are only blocked when they go too far <del>and it is unrelatedly discovered that they are a sockpuppet</del>. Moreover, we can easily find many other instances of people doing and saying far worse stuff than this, dozens of times, and then all their buddies show up to glaze them at the ANI thread and they get a strong admonishment. I do think it's bad to flip out and call people idiots, but I don't think they need to be forever removed from the project. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 10:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::As a compromise between zero and infinity, reduced to two weeks. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] He very clearly did not explain or show why what he did was wrong, nor did he give an apology (which was halfhearted ay best) until prompted three times. ] (]/]) 13:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::TTYDDoopliss was blocked indefinitely for trolling by Canterbury Tail before being found put as a sock by spicy. ] (]) 11:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Amended, thanks. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|JPxG}} Did you discuss this with the original blocking admin beforehand? And I agree with voorts that they do not completely understand what they did was wrong. I don't think it's appropriate to change the blocking time without a consensus at this point. ] ] 13:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, he did not, and I agree that this unblock should not have happened. This attempt to downplay "editor X should be tracked down" by comparing it to tracking down spare parts is frankly bizarre. You shouldn't be unblocking people if you don't understand why saying that (even if not serious) can be extremely scary to that editor, who now might need to worry about a sociopath from the internet trying to hurt them. ] (]/]) 14:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Also RE the TTYD block JPxG should know that "what about X" isn't really a good argument on wiki. ] (]/]) 14:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If you think I am lying (?) about this phrase being used in normal contexts, I will look it up in the dictionary. Here is what says: | |||
| :::::{{tq|to search for someone or something, often when it is difficult to find that person or thing:}} | |||
| :::::{{tq|''I’m trying to track down one of my old classmates from college.''}} | |||
| :::: says: | |||
| :::::{{tq|Follow successfully, locate, as in ''I've been trying to track down that book but haven't had any luck''. This term alludes to the literal use of track , “follow the footsteps of.” }} | |||
| :::: says: | |||
| :::::{{tq|If you track down someone or something, you find them, or find information about them, after a difficult or long search.}} | |||
| :::::{{tq|''She had spent years trying to track down her parents.''}} | |||
| :::::{{tq|''I'll go and have a quick word, then we'll track down Mr Derringer.''}} | |||
| :::::{{tq|''The last time I had flown with him into the Sahara to track down hijacked weapons.''}} | |||
| :::::{{tq|''There had been some spectacular busts in recent history, but even the FBI could not work fast enough to track down these people.''}} | |||
| ::::Do you think that "trying to track down her parents" implies that the person in the example sentence is a "sociopath" who is "trying to hurt them"? I agree that this was a very dumb choice of words, due to the potential for being misinterpreted, as can be seen above. Indeed, one of the examples (the last given) does imply hostility. I would not say this. I do not think that all of these dictionaries are engaged in a "frankly bizarre attempt to downplay" the phrase, nor do I think that is a fair summary of what I did. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm saying that I agree that there are other ways to read tracking someone down but it still wasn't appropriate to adjust blocking time without consensus. This was more than simply calling a person an idiot. They said {{tq|Get this politically divisive ] off the damned front page}} and {{tq|And: You're an idiot for approving political flamebait for the front page.}} Their unblock rationale is not good enough, in my opinion. Just because incivility isn't enforced enough as it should be isn't a reason to just not apply it all. Indefinite does mean infinite, but the editor in question should come up with a better unblock request instead of simply waiting out the two weeks and going back to editing like nothing happened. ] ] 14:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I suppose you may be correct. Well, I am going to bed; if a bunch of people come up and say the guy is really that much of a menace that the block needs to be lengthened, I will not be around to do so. I will abide my general practice on administrative actions, which is that if someone is so convinced of my idiocy they feel the need to undo it, then sure, I guess. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I don't think you're lying, just a bit naïve. If someone says {{tq|"Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page! And then track down the editor who put it there."}} on the internet to a stranger, the common sense interpretation is that it is a threat of violence. Your examples of other uses of the wording are all well and good when discussing in-person, normal interactions. But the pseudonymity of social media emboldens the craven. Threats of violence come easier to the keyboard fingers when the perpetrator is safely out of reach. ] (]) 14:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Well, when confronted, he said that it was not meant to suggest anything be done to the person: {{tq|I mentioned no one by name,and suggested no action. Therefore neither puposefully OR blantantly nor would that constitute harrassment.}} This seems pretty straightforward to me, although I get that people want the guy gone, so do what you want. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==== Proposal: commute block to topic ban ==== | |||
| :I suspect ] performed similar edits as IP 70.190.253.77. (That account is blocked for 24 hours.) An advisory regarding Socking has been posted on Armour's talk page. – ] (]) 03:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Self-explanatory, I think. Riventree's outburst, and the follow up discussion on their talk page, show that they hold views incompatible with neutral editing about this topic. Furthermore there clearly was not consensus to unblock (the blocking administrator ]) and JPxG's ] action should not stand, but a ] isn't going to help anyone. A topic ban from AP2, gender-related controversies, and/or feminism as a broad topic, would serve to prevent future disruption in these sensitive topics; meanwhile Riventree can appeal the sanction later once they've taken time to reflect on their behaviour here. | |||
| ::Whether the same account or not, he's definitely continuing the edit warring started by the IP, so I've blocked him. Although he only made three reverts today, I think a block was reasonable here. ] (]) 03:31, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as proposer; interested in further comments on the scope of a topic ban. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 15:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't disagree, particularly given that they keep mentioning policy that they don't understand. ] (]) 03:42, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Lengthen the block if you want. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * They've made a total of 135 edits since the beginning of 2022, 17 of which have been in the last 24 hours. I'm not sure how much a topic ban really matters. Never the less, I'd support a topic ban as a bare minimum, especially considering their follow up edits to ] ({{diff2|1270933193|1}}, {{diff2|1270933653|2}}. ] (]) 18:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I don't think a topic ban is needed. This editor has never edited in that area before and I presume will not after this debace. I would like tue indef to be reimposed until we actually get a sufficient unblock request. ] (]/]) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Considering this is such an old account and the bad edits are all recent, is it possible we're dealing with a compromised account situation? ] ] 19:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Problematic edits in the AMPOL area and with other users aren't recent. Never say never, but judging from some of their older edits: | |||
| *:::*: unsourced switching of the language from "break free" to "resisted arrest" in the ]. (Followup conversation at Eeng's talkage, wher they justified the change as original research ; note that at the time, the BLP policy still applied to Brooks so accusing him of a crime without a source is a major no-no) | |||
| *:::* Removed the fact that the counterfeit bill Floyd was accused of having was a $20 bill with the edit summary "Exclude trivia" in ]. | |||
| *:::*: Changed "it is widely believed that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" "it feared that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" with the edit summary "Forgive me, I abhor emotion-laden politics, but this is actually relevant here" - note how it is very similar to the language and tone they used at DYK yesterday | |||
| *:::*] shows the same pattern of coming in very strong with personal attacks and aspersions, then backing down and apologizing a while later. | |||
| *:::**Similarly on other talk pages {{tq|Did you just revert it because you hate change, or was there some actual reason?}} | |||
| *:::*] and some attempting to desribe the Holocene Extinction as "theoretical", something something "the knee-jerk alarmists who were happy to simply assert human causation as the cause of an eco-disaster". | |||
| *:::* Tried to make the article ] more neutral by adding an unsourced paragraph called "The Argument Over 'Scripting'". When questioned on the taklk, they justified this by saying {{tq|UM, no. It's just deduction. It's certainly not 'military propaganda', because the neutrality flag pointed out that the military perspective (not side, not propaganda) wasn't included at all.}} ]. | |||
| *:::Additionally, and I find this especially relevant given @]'s concerns about a double standard because they weren't "handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology", they were given a final warning for harrassment and personal attacks by Yunshui in 2020.. Follow up here:, though I obvious do not know the severity of what Riventree did, given that it apparently needed revdel. Can any admin give insight? ] (]) 20:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Whether the account is compromised or not I don't think we want to have an editor who responds this way to something as bromine as the idea of the feminist retelling editing in the various contentious topics that this overlaps. I'd want to see such a TBan encompassing at least ] broadly construed. As for AP2 I'm a bit worried of the tendency of Americans to turn every social issue into a domestic political issue, especially immediately following a governmental transition but AP2 needs fewer hot-heads, not more, so I'd be weakly supportive of that one too. ] (]) 19:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I do not think that a topic ban is the solution to this problem. The colloquial phrase "track down" can certainly be used benignly as the various quotes above show, but context is all-important. In this case, as it was actually used in the context of the rage filled rant, I read it as either a threat of outing (most likely) or a threat of violence (distinctly possible). In my opinion, this editor needs to show a deeper understanding of why what they said was intimidating and totally wrong. ] (]) 20:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ==== Proposal: Reinstate indef ==== | |||
| == Long-term edit warring at ] == | |||
| A discussion is needed on this to prevent ] from applying. Proposal is pretty much the title, reinstate indef until a more convincing unblock rationale is made. | |||
| * '''Support''' as proposer. ] ] 19:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' with the conditional modifier that I would like to see the tban discussed in the proposal above remain in effect should they subsequently become unblocked. ] (]) 19:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' reinstating indef, '''support''' gensex/ap2 topic ban. If they can't handle that, then indef. --] 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' It shouldn't have been lifted in the first place. ] (]/]) 20:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per {{u|Voorts}} and the long pattern of sub-optimal behavior and previous warnings as documented by {{u|GreenLipstickLesbian}}. GLL, as for the revision deleted content, in the process of mocking an editor they disagreed with, this editor linked to another website that criticized the mocked editor and outed a third editor. It was ugly in general but linking to the outing was what led to the revdel. ] (]) 21:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' given the history—particularly the outing, which correlates with the “track down” comment in the current case. — ] ] 21:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Anonymous8206 == | |||
| Could some uninvolved admin please go have a look at the article on ] (a Korean religious leader). This article has been the subject of edit warring and both full and semi-protection for over a year (as can be seen from its revision history and talk page). Most recently — soon after the expiry of a three-month semi-protection — an IP editor critical of Jung, claiming (despite numerous apparently reliable sources) that the material in dispute violated ] and ]. In order to steer clear of any possible suggestions that I may be too involved with this article, or with past discussions about its content, to perform administrative functions related thereto, I would like to ask someone else to study the situation and take whatever action (if any) they may feel is appropriate. Thanks. — ]] <small>''(no relation to Jimbo)''</small> 07:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Editor using Misplaced Pages as a social network blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| :I reviewed the blanking and found the editor's reasoning to fall short of my expectations. Other admins are welcome to examine my judgement. ] ] 00:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Anonymous8206}} | |||
| ::This situation is still in need of attention by '''''<u>uninvolved</u>''''' admins. Both Shii and I have edited the article and have participated in content discussions. — ]] <small>''(no relation to Jimbo)''</small> 21:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Disruptive (soapbox, forum) and personal attacks at ] for over a year. Examples: . | |||
| They have been warned on their talk page multiple times for this, e.g.: ] (]) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Clock 12:13 == | |||
| :] policy applies to every living person, even Donald Trump. I think a topic ban from all things Trump, broadly construed, is called for here. ] (]) 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Another example of using talk pages as a forum on an unrelated topic: ]. <s>I think a final warning rather than a TBAN would be appropriate.</s> ] (]/]) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've indef'd this user as not here. Per X-tools, 152/182 edits (83.5%) are in talkspace, 105 are to ] in particular, and 3 are to mainspace. Apart from the problematic Trump edits, most of this user's other edits appear to be similar forumy posts or musings on random talk pages. ] (]/]) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ==Two editors edit warring and attacking others while whitewashing fascism of an individual== | |||
| Apparent sock-puppetry with an account registered just earlier this month (1 week ago). | |||
| As the title suggests, this includes: | |||
| - twice reverting my edits for no reason whatsoever (my newest edits, because I work on this article for years now). | |||
| *{{userlinks|SuvGh}} | |||
| Lots of reverts in a wide variety of articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/Clock_12:13&offset=&limit=500&target=Clock+12%3A13 - it's always reverting first, without any prior editing. That's a lot of content in many articles. | |||
| ::Making personal attacks such as "Enough of explaining r@cist Brits what to do", "you're probably an ignorant British man", and has tried to remove relevant content about 4 times now. | |||
| *{{userlinks|Camarada internacionalista}} | |||
| Possibly ] as he was also vandalizing the same article and was also known for spamming "citation needed" tags (apparently the only other activity of Clock 12:13 other than reverting). | |||
| ::Has tried to remove the reliably sourced content 3 times, and used rude editor summaries like "disgusting argument". Has no activity on talk page or anywhere else to address his edits. See ]. | |||
| Both of them were sufficiently warned. ] (]) 02:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Blocked SuvGh for 24 hours for personal attacks in edit summaries and violating 3RR in spirit if not in letter (slightly over 24 hours for four reverts but blatant edit-warring). Camarada internatcionalista hasn't breached 3RR but is edit-warring, I'll let another admin decide if they need a block as they aren't ''currently'' editing it appears. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :agree that from the editing pattern this is not a new editor and the behavior suggests that they are NOTHERE to create an encyclopedia, just stir up trouble. -- ] 13:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::That talk page section they made should have been removed for being a ] attempt to disparage sources on grounds of national origin. ] (]) 03:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Apparently (), unless it's really "random article" roulette. --] (]) 13:31, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Camarada internacionalista has made 2 more reverts now. ] (]) 05:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Mealwaysrockz007 is my guess too, based on of . Neither has anything to do with adding or removing table format, yet that is a common disagreement I have had with the Mealwaysrockz007 socks and their insistence that ] requires tables. Other than that and the edit warring, and the bizarre edit summaries (although Clock's edit summary bizarreness feels different than Mealwaysrockz' edit summary bizarreness) the rest of the behavior does not match that user -unless they have finally realized that when they only edit the same articles in the same manner the DUCK sock blocks come quickly. -- ] 15:49, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I have blocked both editors indefinitely. ] <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">[]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 05:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == 2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 - personal attacks == | |||
| == User:Tnspro == | |||
| {{user|2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64}} I saw an IP making an ] on one user (telling them to resign for being "worthless"), and ]. I think that the /64 edits from a few days ago on the Denali situation are enough to say that they're the same user on the IP, given the political nature. I'm almost certain they're abusing a larger range than this, as zooming out to the /42 shows more political badgering. A previous /64 in that range was blocked as well for similar reasons. ] (]) 04:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{userlinks|Tnspro}} | |||
| :I blocked. ♫ ] (<small>]</small>) 04:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just for the one IP, though - the range is unblocked, looks like. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks. I was sleeping, but good to see action being taken. :) ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 13:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Incivility and edit-warring == | |||
| There's a detailed summary of this incident on ]. Here's the short version: the user Tnspro has made a career out of posting links to the website oldestlivingprofootball.com on the articles of hundreds of football players. Several editors have brought up concerns about these edits on his talk page. Tnspro's responses have consisted of ignoring people, blanking their comments, and, most recently, asking for a user's personal phone number. A discussion was started on the WikiProject NFL talk page (linked above) about the value of the website in question as an external link. Tnspro did participate in that discussion, but has refused to address the issue of whether or not his edits are acceptable under Misplaced Pages policy. He has accused others of not wanting Misplaced Pages to be accurate, claimed that his website is the only correct source on the internet and that we should all be using it, accused multiple other users of being vandals and liars, and at one point told another user (not me) that he would be "dealt with accordingly" for calling him a spammer (). When he was directly asked if he believed his edits were in line with Misplaced Pages policy, he quit editing for a month rather than responding and then came back to revert a bunch of my edits when I tried to enforce the growing consensus. I was hoping someone with authority could evaluate the status of consensus and either tell Tnspro to accept that consensus is against him or tell me how one user against everyone else isn't consensus.<br /><font color="green">]</font><sup><span style="margin-left:-2px"><font color="purple">]</font></span></sup><small><span style="margin-left:-9px"><font color="caramel">]</font></span></small> 10:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|After being explained by Wiznut at 1.00am UTC today about how even discussing through edit summaries while reverting in good faith is edit warring, Thelittlefaerie has opened a discussion on the article talk and stopped edit warring. Additionally, they are now aware that making personal attacks is prohibited and have issued an apology to editors they attacked while in a heated argument. As a talk discussion is now open for content issues, and this user now seems aware about how we resolve disputes here on Misplaced Pages, I am closing this section with no prejudice to it being re-opened should subpar behaviour recur. I think a little ] is justified here as they are a new editor, who now knows about the dispute resolution processes and is now engaging collaboratively. ] <sup>]]</sup> 06:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *The discussion happened at ]; it's not bad reading (except for {{U|Dirtlawyer1}}'s "Gentlemen!", which has a slight odor of jockstraps and good old boys) and includes useful commentary from the website's owner. There is a consensus there (that's how I read it anyway) that the website should NOT be included in an External links section, and is probably not to be used as a reliable source, whatever its other merits. Furthermore, I see plenty of warnings have been given to Tnspro, and plenty of evidence that they are ], as the Dutch might say. From what I can tell all their edits that are still up are reverts to add that link, and I have no qualms about rolling them all back, considering the various conversations on the topic. Let this serve as a final warning to {{U|Tnspro}}; what they're doing is considered linkspamming and disruptive editing against consensus, and it's blockable. ] (]) 16:05, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| This is concerning user ] (] and ]). A new user, who initially made several good faith mistakes related to providing sources and not using original research. However, he also decided that the Afghanistan population at ] needed to be correct. A history of the edit war, which involved Thelittlefaerie vs three other editors (including me): | |||
| Users involved: | |||
| == IP edit-warring to include fringe claims == | |||
| {{Userlinks|Thelittlefaerie}} | |||
| {{ipvandal|74.192.152.146}} has spent the last couple of weeks trying to edit-war some questionable content into ], a "conspiracy theory" article that gets its fair share of vandalism at the best of times. The content comes from a series of unreliable sources but the IP maintains that consensus at ] is "not convincing" (though he won't contribute) and that we should "IAR" to include his fringe-of-fringe claims. IP has removed every warning from his talk page and is now at ] just today. Can someone please block/protect or any combination they see fit. ]] 12:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Wizmut}} | |||
| :Nobody has engaged me in any discussion regarding this article. "Fringe-of-fringe" is a completely subjective title. I encourage the OP to discuss things rather than revert aimlessly and edit war. --] (]) 22:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|MIHAIL}} | |||
| ::That you haven't involved yourself in discussions does not mean they weren't happening. The only person edit-warring here is you, and you've been reverted now by three different editors, not just me. Everyone else is working within the normal ] cycle. You boldly added unreliably sourced material to an article, your edits were reverted but you've refused to discuss them, instead trying to re-add the "information" citing ]. Want to start a discussion on the talk page to argue you've met your ] of verifiability, go for it! Your responses to being reverted so far have been to remove warning templates and make ] edits to other parts of the article in retaliation. For those playing at home, the edits in question were aimed at including claims sourced to ]. Other editors have already weighed in but I think "fringe-of-fringe" is probably being ''generous''. ]] 01:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Magnolia677}} | |||
| == Problems at ] == | |||
| Dates: | |||
| This is just to notify strange editing taking place in the article ]. For instance, (see ) an editor claims material should be removed because it is allegedly only mentioned by authors of one nationality. Regards.--] | ] 14:49, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :] --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 11:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I note, someone brought it up to them on their talk page first (see ]). ]'']]]'' 11:24, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, and I am solely replying with regards to the subject of source removal (which is a problem of Conflict of Interest and vandalism). I believe my short comment is excused by the "vandalism clause" of the ] exceptions. However, if I am wrong, I apologize (there was no ill intention from my part) and would not mind if ''an administrator'' simply removes/marks-out my comment. Regards.--] | ] 16:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| 20 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie changes the figure without a source, which is reverted by me. For this article, unsourced changes happen regularly, so I did not take the effort to give Thelittlefaire much explanation. | |||
| User MarshalN20 can't help doing it. , , , . --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 18:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| 21 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie tries again, this time using a source, but an unreliable one. | |||
| 22 Dec 2024 : I revert, mentioning the selection criteria for this article's sources. Thelittlefaerie reverts, and also reverts an unrelated change. I leave it, and instead start a topic on the ]. | |||
| :The discussion of this issue seems to have gotten drawn into Basalisk's talk page (see ). Basalisk is also my current TBAN supervisor. Regards.--] | ] 13:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| 26 Dec 2024 : User ] (] and ]) changes the figure back to an official source. (yes that government does use google drive links) | |||
| == User account sought for acquisition == | |||
| 3 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie changes it back to his version, and in the edit summary he uses the phrase ''"This is your final straw."'' | |||
| I just found where someone is looking to purchase an "aged Misplaced Pages account" for "legitimate purposes". While there's probably not much we can do about it, I think it would still breach our shared account rules. ] (]) 15:56, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't want to log in there; how much were they offering? I got a couple cold ones, at a price. ] (]) 16:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Isn't that like advertising for "experienced prostitute, must be a virgin"? <small>]</small> 16:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Why do I feel like their isn't actually anything legitimate about what they want?--''''']''''' ] 02:21, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| 7 Jan 2025 : MIHAIL changes it back. His edit summary in full: ''"why insist with UN or copies of UN when you have official data ?... i've seen Thelittlefaerie vandalize certain pages... the official matters, not fanaticism"''. In a vain attempt to help matters, I add a footnote to the Afghanistan entry detailing three different estimates. | |||
| == User:70.186.222.63 == | |||
| 16 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie again, this time including in his edit summary ''"And now you are acting like a complete fool. I am DONE WITH THIS. You are just a terrible person."'' and also ''"Either stop or I'll keep making edits."'' This edit was particularly troublesome, not only for the incivility, but because he reverted over a dozen unrelated edits. This was reverted by ]. | |||
| * {{IPvandal|70.186.222.63}} – Adds persistently false info to articles (<span class="plainlinks">, , , , </span>). It is probably a static IP. I tried to ; no response. ] (]) 17:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ** <small>Oddly, Geolocate says it is a dynamic IP. --] ] 00:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC) </small> | |||
| 17 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie says he ''"could not reach out to you Magnolia677"'' (I can see no such attempt) and reverts again. This again reverts over a dozen unrelated changes, so I do the revert this time, and also try to warn Thelittlefaerie on the talk page and on his user page. | |||
| == Wiki editor violating my edits == | |||
| 22 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie comes back and reverts, without affecting other entries and without incivility. After this, he finally posts on the talk page, with the argument: ''"I am putting the right source and this is the right version. Please do not change."'' | |||
| I need help. There is a zombie list of movies on[REDACTED] that states the movies are high budgeted. THEY ARE NOT. I have viewed them and found VERY SEXUAL EXPLICIT as well as VERY LOW BUDGETS. Some college kid Wiki editor has removed all my attempts to warn parents and movie viewers. He even removed the "sexual explicit" and further movie content explanations that followed suit with the original document. How can I report this Editor? I am an adult woman with children and I DID NOT appreciate getting surprised with VERY SEXUAL GRAPHIC movies. This is a right we have to know these are explicit and you are lying saying all the movies are high budget. I can give you a list of the low budget ones. He has threatened me as well. I would like to know how to report this person.<small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:48, 20 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :]. --<font face="Book Antiqua">] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub></font> 17:53, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Library, I have posted a welcome message on your user talk page. Please review the various links in the message and learn a bit more about Misplaced Pages and how it functions. With more experience in Misplaced Pages, you should be able to resolve the concerns you have. After your review, you might comment on the article talk page. Thanks. – ] (]) 17:56, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I would like help in responding to this user, who has exhausted my patience. | |||
| *] has now not only made a legal threat,, but she is also denying the existing of the ] policy. I'd like to help the user edit constructively, but NLT is a bright-line that's one of the quickest routes to a block. —''']''' (]) 21:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| **Given that they've responded to a legal-threat warning with a "there is no such policy" comment, as well as , a NLT block has been applied, and the indef will continue until clue improves. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 21:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| **:The "POINTy threat" The Bushranger mentions actually contains self-outing. I'm not going to say her name, but really the information given in her threat made it quite clear who she is, perhaps an admin would like to permanently salt that comment so others don't pick up on what I did. This is when I wish contacting people through email (or a messenger type service like yahoo or facebook) would come in handy and be able to communicate to this well-meaning woman who, imho, probably suffers from PTSD and general Conservative-Christian-itis (probably not a recognized disease, but really should be).] (]) 22:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ***:<small>I saw that, but figured it had the same legitimacy as the "Navy SEAL" copypasta. Also, as a conservative Christian myself, I have to say I'm not too happy with the last bit of the above, please don't tar everyone with the crazies who exist in ''every'' religion). - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 02:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::], don't insinuate that individuals are mentally ill, that is arguably a personal attack. ] (]) 02:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Rolling my eyes.] (]) 16:20, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You can do that all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it's a borderline ], definitly un-], and disparaging people on the basis of religion is usually described usuing a seven-letter word starting with "B". - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 18:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::As a Jew I think I know something about how Misplaced Pages treats non-Christians. But hey, as in the real world, best a Jew shut his mouth than actually confront those that outnumber us can punish us for speaking up and claim it had nothing to do with the REAL reason of being "different". BTW- yes, it really is her on that profile, it is a legitimate concern of self-outing, sad you don't care to do anything, and yes, she's identified as a Conservative and a Christian in news reports, and yes, it is not unreasonable to suppose that spending two years in an Iranian prison will give someone PTSD. If someone attacks Misplaced Pages and our notcensored policy in the way it was attacked, and clearly shows a Conservative political POV it's not a "personal" attack to say that people with that POV are '''fringe''' and perhaps using humor to recognize it is a fringe idea was a bit overblown, I apologize. However, it was not a "NPA" violation because I wasn't personally attacking anyone, I was attacking the Conservative Party platform in regards to social policy about sexuality and censorship. If I had said that someone who believed that global warming not true was "insane for believe that global warming does not exist. They should read a book and get cured!" which implies the same thing- I doubt there'd be this indignation. "Attack" Christianity however... OMG! "Someone doesn't like my religion!" Hmmm, where are you all when people attack Jews and claim conspiracy on Misplaced Pages?] (]) 18:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I think the point The Bushranger and I are trying to make is that you should have ended your comment after "be able to communicate to this well-meaning woman". Making reference to the mental health of other contributors is just not a good thing to do, even if it's obvious to everyone involved. Our concerns had nothing to do with your faith, which I was 100% unaware of. Please do let me know if you're subjected to personal attacks in the future, and I will not hesitate to take action. ] (]) 19:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Likewise, I have no race, creed, or faith knowledge of you (or of anyone else on Misplaced Pages), and I have no care regarding it - your editing, along with everyone else's, is based strictly on its merits. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 00:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 04:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Uninvolved admin required == | |||
| {{atop|I closed the discussion--] (]) 05:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
| Would an uninvolved admin close this discussion ? The thread was started October 1st, and it has now sat there for 2 weeks without any additional activity. Thanks, ] (]) 18:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Magnolia's user talk page is extended confirmed protected, due to ]-related issues, so their story of trying to reach out to her but failing does check out. Both their behaviour and edit summaries are completely unacceptable, however. ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Help!!!!!! Is anyone monitoring here? This matter is going stale. Someone help please. Thanks! ] (]) 19:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::It does seem like this could have gone to ]. But since it is here now, I'd like to hear from ]. They don't edit every day so I'm not sure when they might show up. I think discussion would be more effective than a block as they could end up being blocked over days when they aren't even on Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : You might like to list at ] instead. As you can see, there's quite a queue of closure requests. -- ] (]) 23:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hello! '''Thelittlefaerie''' speaking. My final message be put in simple words, I necessarily don't think that the population of Afghanistan would be 35M which the google drive link states. There are many reasons supporting this. First of all, if you look at a number of sources showing the population of Afghanistan in 2006, it shows it as 31-32M. It has been 19 years since that official estimate (I believe) and I really don't think that the population of Afghanistan in the year of 2023-2025 would be 35M. Second of all, Afghanistan has one of the highest fertility rates in the world right now, which in response to the following reverts, do not relate or make sense. Thirdly and lastly, I have visited Afghanistan myself and is a full blooded Afghan and I can assure you there are way more than 35M people This leads me to believe that the USCB or UN estimates are more thoughtful. Thank you. ] (]) 05:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hello, Thelittlefaerie! Thank you for raising these points. ANI is, however, for conduct issues, not content issues - we don't assess whether what you were trying to do is valid but analyse your behaviour including comments like "terrible person" and "complete fool". It is good to see that your more recent commons are becoming more civil and engaging with other editors in a collaborative manner, like and which afterwards you started a discussion on the article talk after an editor, Wiznut, informed you of how to do this. | |||
| ::::I think if you can apologise and agree to not make ] against other editors again, and refrain from ] (which it seems you have now learned about and stopped, by starting a Talk section and not continuing to discuss in edit summaries of subsequent reverts) and engage on the talk page section you started we should all be able to move forward civilly and collaboratively here. If this doesn't reach a consensus, you can seek ]. | |||
| ::::Thank you for your contributions trying to improve the article, I understand how frustrating some things can be as a newcomer and thank you for learning from your mistakes and working with us here! ] <sup>]]</sup> 05:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In response, I apologize and agree to not make personal attacks on other people. I was frustrated, but that is not an excuse for me. Thank you for your cooperation. Also, we should update the page on Afghanistan too as that says it has 35M. | |||
| :::::Thank you, | |||
| :::::'''Thelittlefaerie''' ] (]) 06:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Please ignore my latest message, I meant to send this to another talk page ] (]) 06:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::(I mean the Afghanistan page updating.) ] (]) 06:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
| * '''Update''': Since the closure of this thread and after TFL found the talk page section and the two-way discussion began, MIHAL (already notified of this discussion above), using an edit summary containing personal attacks (they have been advised to apologise for these) reverted the changes by thelittlefaerie (made prior to joining the talk), which thelittlefaerie then reverted. Both users have now been informed by me that there is no "right version" for the article to be on while the talk page discussion occurs and so I think everyone is ready to collaborate and come up with a compromise, now understanding how talk discussions work, so this doesn't need to be reopened. Hopefully we can all find a solution together! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 21:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Swagsgod == | |||
| == Do these edit summaries cross the line of being legal threats? == | |||
| {{atop|result={{NAC}} {{u|Swagsgod}} blocked and TPA revoked. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:12, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Can ] please be swiftly blocked? They are constantly creating inappropriate pages. They are listed at AIV, but the stream of new pages continues quite rapidly. ] (]) 12:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Looking into it. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I am not sure if the edit summaries by this IP {{user|71.202.210.61}} constitute ] | |||
| ::Indeffed. Here is an example of the stuff they are spamming: | |||
| * | |||
| ::*{{tq| Multimedia Group is the largest independent commercial media and entertainment company in Ghana. Founded in 1995 by a Ghanaian entrepreneur, Mr. Kwame Appiah, the company has grown from humble beginnings with 12 employees to directly employing some 700 people across its 6 radio brands, 3 online assets and Ghana's first free multi channel television brand in over 25 years of operation. The Multimedia Group has been a major spur for the growth in the advertising, creative arts and entertainment industries, particularly the gospel music industry. The Multimedia Group Go For God}} | |||
| * | |||
| ::*{{tq|Certify your English anytime, anywhere Test online, no appointment needed Get results in 2 days A fraction of the cost of other tests}} | |||
| * | |||
| ::etc. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| :::I went through their contribs and deleted the spam pages (most of which had already been tagged properly by {{ping|Fram}}). Let me know if I have missed anything. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| -- ] 23:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thanks. Their user page is extremely bizarre, but somehow gives the impression that they want to accuse the former president of Ghana of some "high criminal offense"? I guess deleting that one would be advisable (it certainly wouldn't lose anything of value). ] (]) 12:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :No. There's no evidence the editor themselves intends to sue. Doesn't validate the edits, of course. <small>]</small> 23:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Gone. —] (]) 12:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :No, the editor never threatened to sue anyone; they're saying that ''someone else'' might. However, they are most likely making up whatever Rupert Sheldrake said about the article.--] (]) 01:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::What? You didn't believe that the user behind gibberish such as {{tq|Ordinary BBC at a temperature of unknown figures higher than the melting point of gallium, and 29" as you see Visualize Sunday,29Th October, 2025 Alarm 4:48pm UTC... from a Primark Bank Account which values an unregistered license sports cars in different variables used in Analysis}} was qualified to "Certify your English anytime"? ] (]) 12:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::They keep going on their talk page now, maybe yank TPA? ] (]) 13:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == IP Editor(s) continuously changing flags without source == | |||
| * User is already violating his/her topic ban for the second time, saying "I do not recognize the legitimacy of the initial topic ban": ]. ] (]) 23:47, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The following IP Editor(s) have been making continuous changes to the flags on the Islamic State of Iraq page without any sources to backup their claims, when the changes are reverted, they just go back and revert the revert and still provide no source, thus causing what I believe to be an unnecessary disruption. | |||
| *As I see it, whether or not they are techically threats to due in the specific sense, these are essentially attempts to influence editing by bringing up the possibility of legal action. This is not acceptable, ''']''' (]) 01:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ], ], ] and ] ] (]) 14:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == 24.146.194.69 and 70.208.65.176 == | |||
| == 142.190.62.131 == | |||
| These two IPs, recently added faux information to ], ], and ], ], and ]. Trivialist, reverted them and gave him an only warning. ] (]) 00:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :The first IP is located in Brooklyn. The second one is located in Kansas City. Ergo, they are most likely proxies.--] (]) 02:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :UPDATE: 72.223.43.181 is on the list of these potential IPs. ] (]) 19:31, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Long-term abuse possible proxy vandal operating out of Alabama, vandalism-only account. Almost all edits to their talk page before the three-year-block are warnings or include Huggle tags(see tak page hist). The reason I'm reporting this user on ANI instead of AVI, is because of the user continuing to vandalize Misplaced Pages after blocks that sometimes took years to expire, one time even two years, which might fall under chronic intractable behavioral problems. This user is currently blocked for 3 years after I already reported them at AVI, but will likely continue to vandalize Misplaced Pages again after the block. This user has been vandalizing Misplaced Pages since 2020. The IP is from Alabama and belongs to a company named "Southern Light, LLC". I don't know if the user is actually operating out of Alabama, or if they are using a proxy. I've seen multiple IPs from the "142" range that are vandalizing Misplaced Pages or contributing unconstructively, although I don't think they have much to do with this user. Their edits to the page "Athenian democracy" didn't get reverted for over two years. Three of their edits got deleted, including their first edit. ] (]) 15:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Continued edit-warring by ] == | |||
| : IP addresses generally do not correlate to a person. In most cases, they are randomly assigned to a customer on that ], then cycle around to another random customer. If there's a long history of petty vandalism, it could potentially be a school, library, public transportation, or some other shared IP with lots of users. Every so often, I think, "I should write an intro to IP addresses", but the best I've come up with yet is ]. And while there are peer-to-peer proxies and VPNs all over the place, there's generally little reason for normal users get worried about them. ] (]) 16:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == IP range edit warring on variety of Canadian politics articles == | |||
| See ] (a few days ago). | |||
| Edit warring at {{pagelinks|Piz Gloria}} (and others) | |||
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| Also see ] They've had warnings for edit warring from three independent authors already – see also ]. | |||
| An IP range user ({{vandal|2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321}}) has been adding contentious or poorly sourced material to a variety of articles related to Canadian politics (including ]s). I haven't been able to warn them as the IP changes frequently but did let them know why I reverted their additions. They've also been causing problems in other articles with unreliable sources or poor information . | |||
| The crux of this is about categorization related to the James Bond films. They've stripped locations from the general film category, sometimes with (but frequently not) with the edit summary ''"locations aren't defined by being in a film"''. They have a point, but there are cases when there is a significant relationship worthy of categorization (see discussion on the ANI link). Likewise ''"Series characters are not independently notable"'' (from their attempt to delete yet another category at ]) seems to be implying that such minor topics ''can never be'' notable, rather than the more widely held view that notability is ] and is required to be (but potentially can be) demonstrated separately. | |||
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| There is no support for their deletions from other editors (see the ANI link), just concern over their edit-warring and their attitude to other editors. The greatest support they've had so far was mine, and that was pretty sparing. They've made no real attempt to discuss these changes, not gained any support for them, and where reverted they're edit-warring to push their unique viewpoint. Mostly they reject discussion as not being "ON AN APPROPRIATE TALK PAGE", which seems to mean any location other than where other editors are already trying to discuss it. Their ANI response was basically stonewalling. I raised this Bond issue at ], but they've ignored that too. | |||
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| The user does not appear to be interested in building an encyclopedia productively. ] (]) 17:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Tried notifying them for what that's worth. ] (]) 17:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| They've also listed ] for deletion and prodded at least one individual entry from it, ]. Clearly an editor who just doesn't like James Bond, or categorization. A look over their entire editing history (it doesn't take long) shows the view that the way to build an encyclopedia is to delete it. | |||
| == Abusive user == | |||
| I raised this at ], only to be told that this wasn't a breach and that I should raise it at ANI instead. I was also told that my changing the Bond-related categorization at ] to try and address the very same problem that Jerry is complaining of was itself edit-warring! ] (]) 01:08, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Valid vandalism revert of an edit that clearly looked like vandalism. That Shaggydan did not mean to vandalize is good, but it does not change the fact that any reasonable editor would have taken the edit as vandalism; editors are not expected to read minds. Shaggydan is advised that they have full responsibility for all edits made by their account, including those made by code they choose to run on their machine. I suggest they find something better to do than argue about this. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">[]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 17:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * ''Clearly an editor who just doesn't like James Bond, or categorization.'' I don't understand how you could have formulated an opinion on what I think about either James Bond or categorization, because every time I've asked you to engage in a conversation on any appropriate talk page, including my own or one of several articles, you have decided to ignore those repeated requests in favor of rushing off in search of an administrator to validate you. Had you bothered to initiate a direct conversation with me at any of the many, many places I suggested it, then perhaps you might have a better basis for an opinion. | |||
| Moved from the ]. Courtesy link: {{user|Opolito}}, filed by {{user|Shaggydan}}, moved by ] (]) 17:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I have tried in good faith to open dialogues with you about the specific pages in question and you have declined to engage. From this I could form an assumption that you are a troll who is interested in imposing your will on the project to the discounting of everyone around you, but I have refrained from doing so. | |||
| * Had you engaged me in conversation on any of the many occasions in which I asked you to, including on the last change to Piz Gloria which you linked to above then maybe we could have made some progress on this. No, instead you want to pick a fight. | |||
| * An appropriate talk page to discuss what categories Piz Gloria should go in would be ]. Have you tried to engage in that conversation there? No, you have not. You did initiate a discussion on ] but you did not notify me that you had begin such a discussion and since I do not monitor your activity with the closeness that you seem to monitor mine I had no idea it was occuring. I will gladly reply to you there. | |||
| * Consensus has not demonstrably changed against categorizing real-world places based on their appearance in a James Bond film. This consensus has been in place for years. Links to the establishment of that consensus have been posted repeatedly in various venues. ] is not an appropriate place to check whether consensus on the subject has changed. | |||
| * None of the proposals or nominations for deletion that I have made fall outside the established and accepted guidelines for such actions and the fact that the majority of them have been accepted by the Misplaced Pages community is proof of that. Contrary to your opinion of my Misplaced Pages philosophy. I believe that it is best served and grown by creating and maintaining articles and categories that are in line with relevant policies and guidelines. No idea what your philosophy on project-building is. ] (]) 01:54, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| User Opolito is flagging users, including me, for vandalism when there is no vandalism. Who is able to restrict his account and remove his warnings and how do I bring this to their attention? ] (]) 15:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Loomspicker again == | |||
| *I moved this from AN. ] ] 01:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I've raised this issue here before, but the user in question oh-so-conveniently went inactive for a few days while the thread was open. To sum up, ] is a single-purpose account devoted to pretending Islamophobia doesn't exist by scrubbing the word from Misplaced Pages, and in the service of this crusade, has engaged in a number of prohibited behaviors. In addition to the evidence detailed ], which includes the introduction of factual inaccuracy, blanking sourced material, and adding scare quotes, he has more recently continued to misrepresent sources ( ), remove sourced material (), delink pages in an apparent attempt to orphan them so they can be deleted ( ), and otherwise edit in a disruptive and POV manner. Please deal with this even if the user goes inactive in order to avoid scrutiny. –] (] ⋅ ]) 00:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Should I take this to ANI instead? Either way, I don't want this to be archived without being addressed simply because the user stopped editing right when the thread opened. That's what happened last time, and obviously he simply resumed the disruptive behavior as soon as it seemed like no one was looking anymore. –] (] ⋅ ]) 16:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::More of an ANI thing IMO, but since it's here, I'll reply here. (Nowadays apparently you're supposed to use some accursed ''template'' to move a thread to ANI, and I can't away with it.) It would be easier to take stock of the situation if you provided a link to where you raised the issue before, Roscelese. If they repeatedly go inactive when they're under scrutiny, and not at other times, then that's significant, but I'd like to see for myself. ] | ] 15:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| :::...It's already linked in my first post? But here is the link again. ] –] (] ⋅ ]) 15:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| By the way, yes, this sort of thing should be over at ], since it's an "incident", so to speak, regarding another user. As far as I (non-admin) know, ] is more for general announcements and requests, while ] deals more with user behavior. ]'']]]'' 03:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support block or topic ban rom Islam''' for Loomspicker. I have been going through this editors contributions and he is clearly anti-Muslim, goes around articles related to Muslims and puts derogotary information about them as well as other unsavoury edits. ] ] 15:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - I share Roscelese's and Pass a Method's concerns, which I also had after seeing which removed five sources. The fact that these same types of edits are occurring across multiple articles is troubling. I'm not sure if a block is required, but a topic ban should definitely be put on the table for discussion.- ]] 19:08, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::That edit was about what should be included in the article, not necessarily vandalism. Our on the issue clearly shows that. ] (]) 00:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I never said it was vandalism, only that it seems to be part of a pattern of erasing the concept of Islamaphobia from Misplaced Pages by Loomspicker. - ]] 00:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :This is a matter for the ''']'''. Be sure to read the rules there before posting your situation. ] (]) 15:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Very weak support''' based on review of edits over the past few days. Some seem to be done with the agenda of removing any sense of "racism" from Islamophobia pages and to cast Islam in a bad light. But based on the evidence presented by Roscelese, the user does seem to have an agenda and is ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :@]. User:Opolito has flagged you for vandalism for of yours. After he flagged you for vandalism on your talk page, you called him a swear word and then he flagged you for personal attack. And, it seems like the warnings he gives to other Users seem genuine. ] (]|]) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|Shaggydan}} - Let me caution you before bringing it to the notice board, your uncivil behavior such as will very likely also be scrutinized. Furthermore by looking at , I would suggest that it is very possible you will be the one facing sanctions. ] ] 15:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - I don't think Loomspicker was explicitly notified of this discussion on their talk page, so I have done so. I would like to hear from them before deciding whether or not to support a topic ban. - ]] 01:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Shaggydan}} Do you have a browser extension which automatically changes "Trump" to "Drumpf"? It may not have been your intention to make this change in edits but it looks like vandalism. ] (]) 16:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] Thank you for being the first person to review my concern. As I mention on my Talk page, you are correct. As I mention there, I removed an extraneous word from early in the article. The only use of the word "Trump" occurs in a few titles in the reference section. I would have thought Misplaced Pages would not allow extensions to make edits. I was mistaken in my understanding of the security of the site's code. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. Opolito has acted in bad faith in this case and multiple others. Do you know how to invoke some supervision on his account? ] (]) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Topic ban?=== | |||
| ::::You caused damage to the encyclopedia with that dumb browser extension, then blew up with ''actual'' personal attacks when someone came to the obvious conclusion that this constituted intentional vandalism. Get rid of the extension and stop trying to get others sanctioned for a situation of your making. Manufactured outrage is not a valid currency here. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 17:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I propose a topic ban for Loomspicker from all Islam-related articles.] ] 22:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{tq|Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism.}} You seriously don't understand how someone could reasonably see changing Trump's name to Drumpf could look like vandalism? ] (]) 17:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''; user's bias is preventing him from editing productively, on balance. –] (] ⋅ ]) 20:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :User Departure- moved this topic to this page and it appears to be the appropriate forum for my concern. I will add further detail to support my initial statement. | |||
| *'''Comment''' I understand the concern of this user having an agenda, and a topic ban is not an extreme solution. One thing I'd want to hear from the user before making a call either way is what their assessment of Misplaced Pages's relevant rules and norms regarding his/her editing are. Has the user commented anywhere on the accusation that s/he is advocating with a specific agenda in mind (that is, as opposed to building an encyclopedia)? It is possible to have opinionated editors still make valuable edits to issues they care about—as long as they understand how Misplaced Pages is supposed to be edited. --] ] 00:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I recently made a minor edit to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1270798753&markasread=333745816&markasreadwiki=enwiki&oldid=prev&title=Character.ai. A sentence early in the article read, "Many ]s are be based on fictional media sources". I deleted the word "be" and explained my edit in the comments. There were 3 uses of the word "Trump" in titles in the reference section. Nine years ago TV show Last Week Tonight put out a Chrome extension that changes that surname to its original European spelling of "Drumpf". Unbeknownst to me the extension changed the three instances of "Trump" to "Drumpf" in citations of a page about a website that had nothing to do with politics or individuals with that name. | |||
| *This user seems to ''only'' vandalize articles about ] and makes no constructive edits, so it would seem that a general block would be better than a topic ban if this user continues to engage in this sort of behavior.--] (]) 11:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Despite not changing any names in the article (only the reference titles) and making a constructive change to the article which was explained, Opolito assumed bad faith and slapped a vandalism warning on me. There was no discussion with me. A user of 1 year failed to follow the rules on reporting vandalism. It is my understanding this subjects me to a possible ban should he do this again. I am requesting any notation of vandalism be removed from my account. | |||
| :https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. I brought this up in the talk section of my page. He responded it was my responsibility to make perfect edits and claimed I was complaining "the dog ate my homework". He write on my Talk page, "Your edit does not fall under "good faith" and was clearly vandalism. Your very poor excuses aren't convincing anyone." His response illustrates his obliviousness to what constitutes bad faith. | |||
| == User Locke Cole and uncooperative vandalism/filibustering == | |||
| :He then left a warning about attacking other editors claiming I may be blocked from editing because he did not like my response to his false claim of vandalism in my own talk page. I have been a small editor for decades. I don't know how to make claims against others to manage their accounts, but he seems to have done that twice to my account. I am requesting any damage he did to my account be undone. | |||
| :I am not the only user to have this problem. User NoahBWill, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/User:NoahBWill2002, who 12 days ago started on his talk page, "Opolito, my friend, this is Noah B. Will; Why do you have to accuse me of vandalism? I've only been just trying to help out, that's all." | |||
| Over at '']'', a debate ensued in regards to whether or not sources stating ] would return. Myself and users ], ] and ] ruled in favour of not, making it 4-1, thus concluding the result. ] absolutely ''refuses'' to accept and has been ] endlessly. I added a comment at the top of the discussion stating we were finished with the discussion, which he persistently removed, so we may as well throw ] violation in here too. i believe i did too, but holy hell, i left many comments stating "dont remove other's comments" which he did not acknowledge, even though he knows he isn't allowed to remove others comments. I gave him a warning on his talk, but he simply ignored it and deleted it. His behaviour is uncooperative, childish and plain old obnoxious. How do we deal with this? ] 03:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Twenty two days ago a user wrote on his Talk page, "Ciarán Hinds is a Northern Irish actor. The infobox clearly states that he was born in Northern Ireland. Do not accuse people making factual changes to a dictionary of being 'not constructive' again." Opolito's response shows he neither understands that Northern Ireland, where Hinds was born, is not part of Ireland AND he continues to falsely charge users with malpractice even when he himself is wrong saying, "being born in Northern Ireland is not the same thing as being Northern Irish. The sources that describe his nationality at all describe him as "Irish". Misplaced Pages article reflect what the sources say. Changing an article to reflect your opinion instead of what the sources say is not allowed. Please do not continue to do so." | |||
| :You've chosen to ignore, at every turn, site policy regarding the usage of sources and original research. You also choose to ignore editors that support the addition of Jeremy Renner to the cast (your "vote count", which BTW, ], is slightly off, there are at least four editors at the talk page that ''support'' adding it to the page, not counting the six editors your group have repeatedly reverted over the past three months). Also, please read ], you do not get to unilaterally close a discussion you yourself are involved in. You have no right to do that, and it's uncivil (as is reverting me on my own talk page, which you did today). I seriously can't believe something this trivial is causing this much grief. It's a wiki, if somehow it ends up being wrong, you can always change it later. —] • ] • ] 04:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :29 days ago user Wilvis1 added an appropriate fact to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Crisfield,_Maryland. He supported the fact with a link to a local business making the claim. Opolito accused Wilvis1 of posting spam. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Crisfield,_Maryland&action=history. It clearly was not spam. | |||
| ::Quite a few of those six editors didnt engage in the two discussions. And the people against having Renner included were: me, Favre, Mainstream, TriiipleThreat, Tenebrae, Betty Logan. In favour: you, TreCoolGuy, Shii (who has since not engaged further). It then grew into you filibustering when we had no real interest in further discussing as it seemed clear why we weren't adding him: the sources are speculative, and we do not post speculation. We do not. And saying that sources are allowed to contain original research is wrong as they would soon be corrected. You can't make things up. ] 15:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :On December 5, Opolito threatened another user. That user responded, "You were also clearly threatening me of a block warning when I clearly did nothing wrong. I ask you kindly to please stop threatening me with your block notification messages on my talk page. You keep making up stuff and said just because I removed it, I didn’t like it, that is NOT were I’m coming from, I explained it to you three times in my edit summaries and yet you refuse to listen. Please chill with your edits and just listen for a moment before this gets out of hand. 2.56.173.95 (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)" | |||
| :::I'm not making things up. You're not understanding site policy. Of course our sources can contain original research, that's what they're for. ] says we, editors, may not create our own research and present it in articles, we must have sources who have done their own research, to back up the statements we make in articles. As to the !vote count, it's the persistence of ignoring sources that leads to that skewed result. If you have any questions about our policies and guidelines, please, let me help you. —] • ] • ] 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :These examples are just from users who have mentioned recent issues on his Talk page. His edit history confirms a pattern of abuse. A quick look shows on January 20 on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/David_Lynch he threatened user Vinnylospo with bring blocked from editing for adding "unsourced or poorly sources material" calling it a "final warning". Vinnylospo had added the page to the Category for January 2025 California Wildfires. The Hollywood Reporter, as referenced in the article, has reported Lynch's condition severely worsened upon being forced to evacuate due to the fires just before his death. Despite this, Opolito took offense at the inclusion of the category and again threatened a user who had made a good faith edit. | |||
| ::So you've clearly broken 3RR on the talk page removing others comments. <s>Is there any reason you shouldn't be blocked?</s> ] (]) 04:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I find this behavior deeply concerning and contrary to Misplaced Pages's mission. I just try to make the site a little better where I see errors or things that need cleaning up from time to time. I do not pretend to be versed in all the mechanisms in place for one user to harm another. I know enough that vandalism procedures were not correctly followed by Opolito in my case and others and that takes away from the site's mission. I hope this is in the right place and that something can be done to prevent this from continuing to occur. ] (]) 17:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because I was reverting disruption? —] • ] • ] 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| ::I've just blocked Locke Cole for 24 hours for violating the three revert rule on ]. ] (]) 05:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've the editor's peculiar unblock request. | |||
| :::Looking at this from the outside, I do have to agree that Rusted Autoparts was a bit quick to (attempt to) shut down discussion on the talk page - I don't think that was the wisest move. Generally, you want to have a few days (after all, we're not in a rush) for ample discussion, and you want to involve an unbiased mediator (e.g. an admin) if things get heated. Given that none of this was done, I don't blame Locke Cole for getting frustrated. ] 11:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's the thing, we did. From Oct 4-8 we discussed whether or not to add Renner. Result: don't add. Cole decided he didn't like the result and on the 19th added Renner to the article anyway. We removed him and he decided to open another discussion, with the consensus of dont add still intact. He didnt take that too well and began forcing all of us to continue discussing when we were clearly finished. ] 13:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'd say the early October discussion was charitably no consensus. There was some headway made regarding different ways to state it, so as not to include him in the cast section, but edits I made after the protection expired were promptly reverted completely, instead of edited to reach something we could possibly compromise on. As to the talk page discussion, I was waiting for something more meaningful than "I don't like it", and perhaps for some discussion about policy regarding sources, but it never occurred. So of course I had to re-start the discussion after the reverts on the main page. —] • ] • ] 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, I think it was inappropriate for Rusted AutoParts to close the discussion like that, and I suppose a warning is in order for that. I think Locke Cole had other options for dealing with that though (he could have asked an admin to step in, or just written "this discussion is not closed"), which is why I blocked. ] (]) 14:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| * Personally, I find it a little unequal that Locke gets a block, and Rust<s>y</s>''ed'' gets off scot-free. Closing that discussion was wholly inappropriate, and trying to force it closed was even worse. However, because of the "bright line", one party gets slapped, even though they were actually doing the right thing. Rust<s>y</s>''ed'' should not be closing any discussions - especially if they think that discussions are actually ''votes'', and not ''discussions based on policy''. Either block'em both for the same length of time, or unblock Locke for time-served - consider that the block did its job and protected further edit-warring. Make sure that discussion is reopened and stays reopened until someone with a clue can evaluate consensus after a couple of weeks <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 14:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I'd prefer "Rusted", thank you, not "Rusty" as if you're trying to play me off as some kid. And this whole statement is coming off as an attack against me rather than addressing the conduct Locke engaged in. "Someone with a clue"? How dare you. Do you have anything to add to the topic at hand, or would you prefer continuing attacking me? None of it changes the conduct Cole used in the thread. From filibustering to growing irrational. ] 15:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: What "filibustering"? You improperly closed a discussion. Period. By your own comments in this thread, you have no business closing ''any'' threads, anywhere. Locke has been blocked for his edit-warring, and now it's time to further review ''your'' inappropriate actions - which you knew would happen when you filed this report. Your poor behaviour led to someone else's poor behaviour ... let's consider that now. Could you please address the issues I and others raised about ''you'' rather than make some bizarre claims about ] <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 15:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Im sorry, it seems you haven't actually read the discussion and assuming I made Locke become irrational. I altered the closed discussion sentence. As for attacks, you use my name in a degrading manner by calling me "Rusty" and then implied I'm stupid by suggesting "someone with a clue" come. I'll say it again: I'm not the one being reported here. Locke was clearly filibustering and no one's actions should ever drive an editor to lose control like he did. Now stay on topic. I conceded my end of what went down was distasteful and like I said I removed the closed discussion sentence and simply stated it was a continuation of a prior discussion. Locke refused to understand why we weren't adding Renner, so he tried to force his view and filibustered. ] 15:40, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::As a participant in the discussion, I agree RAP should not have closed the discussion himself. However, Locke has ], which has been rejected by overwhelming majority of the opinions (more than four RAP mentioned). I know it's not a vote but at some point we need to move on, editors cannot spend all their time retorting the same argument to someone who refuses to get the point.--] (]) 15:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Thanks for your rational review and response, TT - I concur with many of the elements you point out. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 16:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Ok, I've unblocked LC early per preventative, not punitive. ] (]) 15:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Would it be possible to get an uninvolved admin to remove or move Rusted AutoParts "closure" comment at the top of the section? Since my removals are apparently bad. —] • ] • ] 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == request BLP edit summary blanking == | |||
| could someone blank this edit summary https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AAlex_Jones&diff=578074754&oldid=577991747] containing commentary about a living person? thanks! see {{user|Collect}}'s analysis of the "sources" -- ] 12:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Done}} <small>]</small> 17:01, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Thanks, but they have done it again -- ] 18:11, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :If necessary, follow the steps at ]. --] ] 00:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Single Purpose Account: Delphenich == | |||
| {{Userlinks|Delphenich}} is a ] who only adds link to books they have authors and translations that they have done. None of their books or translations are hosted at ] or are academically peer reviewed. While this person most likely is working to improve the encyclopedia, all of their additions are ]. See list of contributions . Multiple users, including myself, have reverted their edits. Admission that the . I have also notified them of their COI issues. . -- ]]. 17:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Not clear that admins are required ''yet''. The user's last edit was to explain their previous editing. My personal advice is to let the discussion play out, and if the answers you receive are problematic, to come back to ANI. --] ] 00:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == User Access infocom appears to be a single-issue vandalistic editor == | |||
| ] recently ] ] to prepend the word "access" to each occurrence of "infocom". All this user's edits (all of two) were to vandalize ] like this. I can't figure out the motivation for this, but it's clear this account is a ]. -- ](]) 18:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Could the motivation be a klutzy attempt to promote ? Indefinitely blocked per ]. <small> (And username and what not.) </small> Thank you, Frotz. ] | ] 18:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
| == Bitcoin and Reddit-warring == | |||
| The ] article has been the subject of two discussions on Reddit recently that are attracting a lot of attention and activity. Some admin eyes are needed on an ongoing edit war over language in the lead. I have fairly strong views on the topic so I'm not going to get involved. --] ] 18:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Here's are the , for reference. ] (]) 18:40, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| So far it's only really me and ] clashing somewhat at the moment, and I don't believe Fleetham is from/affiliated with the current Reddit activity. I however, am. I am editing for neutrality only. We're currently discussing our changes in a civilised manner, so I don't think there is any cause for concern at this time. ] (]) 18:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Considering what the Reddit community is like, I think it would probably be best to protect this article for the moment.--] (]) 22:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't think our "community" has any room to state such a thing. ] (]) 02:04, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == ] and ] == | |||
| Article is BLP that had some out of date information. Brand new ] account ] is making updates, but everything is uncited and completely failing ]. As these edits are making accusations about others actions they are also in violation of ] A few of the more egregious diffs . I have been trying to fix the article up with the more recent info, and include what I can source, but I am now at ] (although I would argue that I am falling into the BLP exception) for removing the npov versions. I think its pretty obvious that the editor is either Januzzo or someone working on his behalf which raises ] issues, but I could use some help keeping the article in compliance with ] and ] as well as maybe a more stern warning. User warned with an additional unsourced (and likely ] violating edit ] ] (]) 21:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :The user name itself is...questionable, too. (] #72 at least, implied ] even if you take it a certain way...) - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Avengednightmario == | |||
| Lately, {{vandal|Avengednightmario}} has been vandalizing ] and ] by changing it to state that Paul is in favor of abortion exceptions for rape and incest. I call this vandalism because it's and he's been warned repeatedly. Given that this is a ] for a prominent politician, I see this as a very serious issue. | |||
| Moreover, it's a symptom of a long-term problem with Mario, who tried to make the same changes in March. He has never left an edit comment, much less commented on any talk page, even his own. He ignores all warnings and continues doing what he does. He's not really an editor, just a vandal. | |||
| I can't think of a single reason why he shouldn't be blocked for an indefinite period. Can you? ] (]) 21:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :This seems to be a recent spat, with a long gap since the previous one involving this contributor at that article in March 2013. There doesn't seem to be any involvement by the contributor prior to that. Yes, it is a BLP and, yes, I know little about the subject matter but on the face of it there seems to be little or no discussion on the article talk page and nothing but ] on the user's talk page. Even with a general sanctions regime in place, we'd expect a bit more warning and/or explanation for the allegedly infracting contributor. Is this the way that you always deal with such issues? - ] (]) 23:07, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::While I don't want to jump to an indefinite block right away, I agree that this is a bit ridiculous. I've blocked the user for two weeks. | |||
| ::Sitush - I'd say there was ample warning. This isn't an IP editor - unless that's a shared account, long gaps don't excuse repeated instances of vandalism without acknowledging warnings. ] 23:14, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::My problem was that no-one seems to have explained much to them. I've just done that but conflicted with your block. - ] (]) 23:20, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'd agree that explanation wasn't quite thorough, but there were multiple notes saying "Hey, you're doing this wrong, please don't do it again". Ignoring those without even asking what people are referring to is the editor's own misstep. ] 23:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yeah, it's no big deal. The big deal to me was the request for an indef - ''that'' was ridiculous. - ] (]) 23:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Agreed - though, if the user continues their behaviour after the block lifts, it's a different story. ] 23:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes. This is a first and final situation. - ] (]) 23:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::mop, thanks for responding. If this block gets them to wake up and smell the coffee, great. If not, I'll be back here again. ] (]) 00:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::MilesMoney: more words upfront, fewer blocks later. ] (]) 02:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's true. I tried words. They didn't work, so it was time for a block. Hopefully the block will get through where words didn't. ] (]) 06:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :This sort of behavior is precisely why many forums have taken to banning overzealous ]/] supporters ("Paultards" and "Paulbots", as they're called). And they typically don't take kindly to any sort of criticism. This particular example is certainly a step up from the usual behavior (i.e., simply spamming pages with "RON PAUL 2016 END DA FED STATISTS SHEEPLE ITS HAPPENING"), but I don't see any reason why this individual shouldn't be blocked indefinitely regardless, since they are clearly ] to make constructive edits.--] (]) 10:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::MM, because a couple of edits several months apart is not often indicative of zealotry. Zealots are not usually shy about being forward. They'll get hit hard next time, if there is a next time. - ] (]) 11:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == 171.159.64.10 having a month-long vandal-fest == | |||
| This IP came to my attention due to a non-sense post left on my talk page. I looked through the ] for the IP, and started reviewing edits made by it. I found, going back more than a month, that of about three dozen edits, half have been malicious, and most were in article space. A few were reverted by other editors, and I reverted half a dozen more. Today alone, the IP has left garbage messages on three user talk pages. | |||
| There are also a bunch of legitimate edits, mostly minor, but a few somewhat moe substantial. | |||
| The IP traces back to Bank of America. One of the dits added the name of a non-notable bank of America customer service representative to the ] disambiguation page. | |||
| I do not know what can be done about this. I doubt we want to block a BoA IP, as it represents possibly thousands of employees with no negative history, and possibly a bunch of them being productive editors (as evidenced by the dozen+ positive edits in the history. | |||
| Today's user page edits: | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:NazariyKaminski&diff=prev&oldid=578171858 | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ASufidisciple&diff=578171330&oldid=578170690 | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Dovid&diff=578170631&oldid=578164658 | |||
| Vandalism, some of it subtle enough to just introduce fake facts that could easily be missed: | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mike_Alvarado&diff=575536621&oldid=574804490 | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Game_Boy_Color&diff=576187939&oldid=575458122 | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Silver_fox&diff=577747735&oldid=576025849 -- this is the BoA CSA edit | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rock_Hill,_South_Carolina&diff=577762275&oldid=574362388 | |||
| There are others if you care to look. | |||
| - ] (]) 23:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :While blocking the IP isn't that big of a deal, we could also pursue an abuse report with the ISP/BoA themselves - this isn't a rangeblock, so I don't imagine this would affect more than one location (unless they share an enterprise network across their entire company). ] 23:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Follow-up: I've e-mailed BoA's abuse department to see what they have to say. ] 23:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::If it's a general IP applying to numerous Bank of America employees, how could they know who was doing the abuse?--] (]) 00:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::The customer service representative that they added to ] might be them... but it might also be someone that they're trying to frame. Therefore, reporting them to ] could have destructive effects on an innocent person.--] (]) 00:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I've worked for banks, and I've worked in security. I would be entirely surprised if they can't search proxy logs for URLs matching specific page names and &edit -- but they need to be motivated to do it, because those logs can be hairy and expensive to analyze at that level. ] (]) 03:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}} This ] Bank of America IP kicking off lately. If the BoA would like to try to mitigate the damage internally they are welcome to do so ''alongside'' our anti-vandalism efforts, but I can't see any reason to allow specific IPs known to be used abusively to vandalize articles and harass those reverting them while they do internal checks. --]<sup>]</sup> 03:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :This. We block even IPs on the "sensitive IP" list when it's necessary, and corporate proxies with who-knows-how-many users behind them, so I don't see that BoA needs any special treatment. Also, I'd be surprised if a strict interpretation of their ] would allow for Misplaced Pages editing anyway, so I doubt anyone in management or IT there would care if we block them as needed. —] (]) 07:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd support a 24-hour block for all IPs related to BofA customer service personnel. Maybe then they'll have time to help me with my credit card. Thanks. ] (]) 10:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre == | |||
| The article No Gun Ri Massacre has been under attack since August by someone, username WeldNeck, intent on sugarcoating and suppressing facts about the culpability of the U.S. military for this mass killing of refugees in 1950. | |||
| The article deals with the large-scale killing of South Korean refugees at No Gun Ri early in the Korean War, an event first confirmed by The Associated Press in 1999, reconfirmed and elaborated upon by other news organizations, and then affirmed in investigations by the U.S. and South Korean governments. From the beginning, before the government investigative reports, apologists for the U.S. military, and in particular for the responsible 7th U.S. Cavalry Regiment, have attacked the messengers, the media, over this blot on the U.S. record. From 2006 to 2011, the Misplaced Pages article fell under their sway, and in the process turned into a useless, incoherent mess. In 2012, it was brought back into shape as a solid, factual, highly informative and readable WP article. Now with WeldNeck's intervention, particularly with his efforts to suppress facts and revive long-ago discredited attacks on the media, it is slipping into tendentiousness and sloppiness again. | |||
| He has made 58 edits since August, with 35 in October alone. It has been very difficult for contributors even to keep up with the many, many ways he has altered the article. Among the most serious and damaging changes have been his adding of nonexistent exculpatory clauses in describing declassified military documents that authorized the indiscriminate killing of civilians in Korea 1950 (clauses such as "as warranted," or "when they were suspected to be North Korean forces"; or "after they were determined to be hostile." Such qualifiers don't appear in the documents, which were reported in media and other reliable sources and can be linked to from the article); his deletion of sentences in the WP article that reflect negatively on the U.S. military or officials, such as his elimination, in two places, of the fact that the U.S. Army, by its own admission, deliberately omitted the highly incriminating "Muccio letter" from its investigative report, and his deletion, as usual without explanation, of an ex-soldier's testimony that troops were told to shoot "everyone from 6 to 60"; deleting a sentence noting the U.S. Army failed to investigate No Gun Ri in 1950, although it knew about the killings then. Many more errors and problems were introduced, including some petty ones, such as his removal from the Further Reading list of a leading scholar of this period of the Korean War because WeldNeck says he doesn't like his political views. | |||
| WeldNeck posts at Talk, but almost always in a confrontational, not conciliatory way, dismissing fellow contributors or attacking their integrity, very rarely engaging directly with the substance of an error or overreach that's pointed out to him, but instead reverting to his error-plagued material when others correct it. | |||
| WeldNeck’s actions at this page are very reminiscent of those months earlier of user Kauffner, who I understand was eventually banned from WP. I also understand WeldNeck was cleared of being a Kauffner sockpuppet. WeldNeck also was warned about edit warring at another page. Being relatively new to WP, I don't know what action/sanction would be appropriate in this case. But I do know that WeldNeck's aggressiveness and determination to emasculate this WP article bodes ill for the truth and for Misplaced Pages's mission in this very important historical area. | |||
| I first entered this report at the Administrators’ Noticeboard/Edit Warring, but the admin there referred me to this incidents noticeboard, although this clearly involves edit warring, in view of WeldNeck’s rapid-fire reversals of efforts to correct him and his intransigent attitude. Here are the further details from that edit warring noticeboard report: | |||
| Version before WeldNeck's edit warring: | |||
| <!-- In the section below, link to diffs of the user's reverts. Add more lines if needed. Dates are optional. Remember, you do need *4* reverts to violate WP:3RR, although edit warring has no such strict rule. --> | |||
| Diffs of ''some'' of the user's edit warring and reverts: | |||
| # 8 August: Deletes important sentence without explainer (SEE COMMENTS BELOW FOR GENERAL BACKGROUND TO WELDNECK'S DAMAGING EDITS, REVERTS; 58 EDITS SINCE AUGUST) | |||
| # 8 August: Removes witness, illogical reason. | |||
| # 8 August: Removes "massacre" twice, though that's article's title. | |||
| # 9 August: Misrepresents analyst's call for integrity process, attributing it instead to South Koreans. | |||
| # 9 August: Removes key source, North Korean journalist. | |||
| # 19 August: Removes leading scholar from Further Reading because dislikes his views. | |||
| # 7 October: Reverts fixes to Aerial imagery section with dismissive few words. | |||
| # 7 October: Misleads on which investigators found 2nd Battalion responsible. | |||
| # 7 October: Removes entire Korean commission description of events, without discussion, explanation. | |||
| # 9 October: Falsifies description of Navy document re strafing civilians, adding nonexistent exculpatory clause (sugarcoating) | |||
| # 9 October: A dozen highly objectionable changes, including falsifying the description of Army "shoot refugees" documents by adding nonexistent sugarcoating clauses, and deleting without explanation an ex-soldier's testimony that they were told to shoot "everyone from 6 to 60." | |||
| # 9 October: Deletes Pentagon statement that discredited witness wasn't essential to investigation; no explanation, as usual. | |||
| # 10 October: Reverts contributor's removal of extraneous material. | |||
| # 15 October: Again reverts contributor's fixes to his Aerial imagery edits. | |||
| # 15 October: Deletes sentences noting, with citation, AP refutation of attacks on its journalism, and NY Times article supportive of AP. | |||
| # 18 October: Though warned in Talk that "infiltrators" in official Army history doesn't mean enemy disguised as refugees, inserts actions involving infiltrators to build case against refugees. | |||
| <!-- For more complex cases, it may be necessary to provide a previous version for each revert, or the actual words that are being changed. Adjust your report as necessary --> | |||
| <!-- Warn the user if you have not already done so. --> | |||
| Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: | |||
| == User using multiple non-account IPs to mass-remove information == | |||
| <!-- You've tried to resolve this edit war on the article talk page, haven't you? So put a link to the discussion here. If all you've done is reverted-without-talk, you may find yourself facing a block too --> | |||
| *{{userlinks|93.204.189.212}} | |||
| Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: ] "If anyone has any further 'documented' issues to raise (to use WeldNeck's term) -- that is, specific, sensible questions, not the wild fantasies and fabrications of Robert Bateman, a former officer of the very regiment responsible for the killings -- it is appropriate first to do so here on the Talk page, to start a reasoned discussion and take advantage of what knowledgable people know, and not to take us back to the days of nonsensical inserts and overwrites that served no one except those who would like No Gun Ri to simply go away. Even before that, one should review the previous Talk discussions of body count and other matters". | |||
| *{{userlinks|2003:D3:FF39:B51E:70D0:BF68:E7ED:B8DA}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|2003:D3:FF39:B598:98F3:BF2A:47F0:FB06}} | |||
| Those three accounts all appear to be the same person, who is doing mass removal of information with minimal to no notes. I have reverted some of their edits on ] (because they removed information that I added and sourced myself), but user . After quickly going through their other edits, it doesn't appear they are making any constructive edits. I'd love some help dealing with this issue.--] ] 18:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Charles J. Hanley 13:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC) ] (] • ]) | |||
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User:Jaozinhoanaozinho and persistant WP:SYNTH, WP:PROFRINGE, and WP:GNG-failing articles
This section has been stale for a few days and was at the top of ANI (i.e. the oldest un-archived post) and about to be automatically archived without action. I find consensus for an indefinite (not infinite, you may appeal your restriction at WP:AN if you can create some articles through AfC that demonstrate a better understanding of the policies) ban from creating articles in main space against User:Jaozinhoanaozinho. They may only create articles using the AfC process. This editing restriction will be logged at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Misplaced Pages community. MolecularPilot 03:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Jaozinhoanaozinho has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH seems to be lacking substantially.
- Danish expedition to North America was deleted for WP:PROFRINGE
- Da Serra–American conflict on WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH grounds
- They've been warned about creating hoax articles and continued doing so.
- Warned for copyright issues which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in Potato Revolt)
- Plenty of articles containing only one source Siege of Campar, Battle of Cape Coast (1562), Battle of Lucanzo (1590), Portudal–Joal Massacre, Battle of the Gambia River (1570), Battle of Mugenga
Most recently there's Battle of Naband, which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.
Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. I tried bringing this up with them but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to WP:WIKIHOUND someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a WP:PROFRINGE article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. Doug Weller talk 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I checked this Battle of Naband which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? scope_creep 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Late addendum, but it looks like the user in question was tagged by a research team on their talk page as possibly using AI to edit, which would track with the article writing vs content quality if it's the case. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- AI detection methods are so faulty that I’m 100% willing to accept this as truth. Sorry about that. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:
- 1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "Theory of the Portuguese discovery of Australia," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
- 2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
- 3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
- 4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
- 5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
- 6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
- 7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.
- Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts". Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.
- I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between WP:WIKIHOUNDING and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.
I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.
- Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails WP:GNG doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass WP:GNG and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example
A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".
- I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have WP:SYNTH issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass WP:GNG before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that is in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. Black Kite (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the original research policy. I propose and support a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating WP:OR, they gain that necessary understanding/competence. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- SUPPORT ban from article creation. Doug Weller talk 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. scope_creep 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support article creation ban. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. Barbary–Portuguese conflicts. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, I think the issue might have been with the article describing the events as "course of hostilities" which could make it seem like it was a continuous conflict. I've fixed that to make it clear now. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. Barbary–Portuguese conflicts. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
| WP:SOCK. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
- Comment I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Battle of Lucanzo (1590). There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. scope_creep 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment This is editor is still creating dog poor articles Cult Member. This is the second in days thats been speedied. scope_creep 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. Doug Weller talk 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Me (DragonofBatley)
It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save @KJP1: the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notifying other editors from the wider discussions @PamD:, @Noswall59:, @Rupples:, @Crouch, Swale:, @KeithD:, @SchroCat:, @Tryptofish:, @Cremastra: and @Voice of Clam:. If I missed anyone else sorry DragonofBatley (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity. Schazjmd (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also this discussion: Special:PermanentLink/1269282704#Dragon. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. I'm glad to see that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.
- I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. WP:JAN25 is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, then we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.
- I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to draft articles in userspace and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.
- Happy editing, Cremastra (u — c) 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as User:DragonofBatley/Interesting topics list. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- These are good points.
- However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI-like thing may be in order. WP:Failed verification cleanup project, anyone? Cremastra (u — c) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add DragonofBatley (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC DragonofBatley (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- asilvering (talk) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- DragonofBatley has agreed to a voluntary editing restriction to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- asilvering (talk) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will DragonofBatley (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? voorts (talk/contributions) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for All Saints Church, Wellington. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see any new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - SchroCat (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) KJP1 has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - SchroCat (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you All Saints Church, Wellington. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a great point, you're right, @SchroCat. Schazjmd (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I responded to @Voorts earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with WP:Geoland WP:Notability and WP:Sourcing. Also conflict edit was not directed at @SchroCat, there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's All Saints Church, Wellington was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from Listed buildings in Wellington, Shropshire and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.
- And Dragon's version as submitted to AfC also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. PamD 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
The issues are Verifiability and source integrity; Notability; and the suggestion of Sockpuppetry while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.
Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, Talk:All Saints Church, Wellington, which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises Competency issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.
That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. KJP1 (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. Rupples (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @Rupples or @Voorts. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @Schazjmd and @SchroCat's earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. DragonofBatley (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the WP:V and WP:N concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).
- As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.
- There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.
- Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.
- For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, this needs to be a final warning in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -Noswall59 (talk) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —Noswall59 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at User talk:DragonofBatley.) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked. PamD stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular Crouch, Swale. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (their talk page in July 2023). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point WP:CIR has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)
- Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: 'Woods Bank is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with Dragon's work on it: he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
- Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content here calling it "irrelevant". At User talk:KJP1, PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article St Peter and St Paul Church, Caistor, as he left it, cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, All Saints Church, Wellington, the entire Architecture section was added by other(s). However, their church articles always contain something like
The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.
sourced to achurchnearyou.com, often as a separate "Present day" section. DragonofBatley's version of All Saints' Church, Batley (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose:All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.
(And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing St Augustine of Canterbury, Rugeley and St Augustine's Church, Rugeley, both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.) - Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as here, was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
- Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.
There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note Liz has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that Woods Bank instance (at the end of this edit, which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. Cremastra (u — c) 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to point to WP:Zeroth law of Misplaced Pages: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).
- I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at User_talk:KJP1#Dragon and Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity, and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked.
- I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.
- Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for Chew Stoke, which is also the example of a lead in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.
- Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - removing a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and taking an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.
- The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, All Saints Church, Wellington (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).
- It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.
- Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. PamD 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work
I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've got some experience of CCI investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the 400-odd articles that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. KJP1 (talk) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there DragonofBatley (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
voorts - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. Sound of evil laughter.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- How's this draft proposal: DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace, converting redirects to articles, or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects.
- Having seen Dragon's work on Holme Lacy yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing.
- And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. PamD 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. KJP1 (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: Adding an infobox? Adding a few words about local authority area? Adding a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. PamD 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to Trafford, never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. PamD 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the question PamD. To clarify, I meant any expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing anywhere on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " PamD 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, looks good. @KJP1 what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? Cremastra (u — c) 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cremastra - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hold on. This goes much further than @Voorts wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? Rupples (talk) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at Trafford. I've lost patience. PamD 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:
- No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects
- No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?)
- No editing in mainspace.
- PamD 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:
- In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at Trafford. I've lost patience. PamD 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, looks good. @KJP1 what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? Cremastra (u — c) 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " PamD 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the question PamD. To clarify, I meant any expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing anywhere on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to Trafford, never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. PamD 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: Adding an infobox? Adding a few words about local authority area? Adding a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. PamD 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. KJP1 (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):
- Option A: DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.
- Option B: DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded.
- Option C: DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.
- The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but would personally favour Option B. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into Trafford, a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1: I made some changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- p.s. Trafford this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. KJP1 (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? Rupples (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. KJP1 (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Rupples (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1 and @Rupples: option C amended below. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Rupples (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. KJP1 (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1: I made some changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? PamD 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but would personally favour Option B. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into Trafford, a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s)
| Proposal jumped the gun, no consensus. |
|---|
|
DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):
The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) Uninvolved editors
Involved editors
|
Discussion
- I think I would be happier if:
- there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400).
- I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "
This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs).
" This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB prove to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't see why we need to restrict userspace editing. This would allow them to create pages that would help show that they can create suitable articles. If there are later problems then it can be added but otherwise poor quality drafts in userspace are generally harmless. Is there evidence of problems here? Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because at the moment there are at least a couple of hundred articles that are sub-standard crap and getting him to focus on cleaning those up is important (rather than leave them for everyone else to tidy up while yet more rubbish is churned out in userspace). A temporary hold on article creation in userspace is no great loss to them and will save a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted. - SchroCat (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 19#Category:Civil parishes in Telford and Wrekin. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). PamD 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1 and Cremastra: Another element for the cleanup project: where an article has been created at a disambiguated title, it should be added to the relevant dab page (or a hatnote made from base title). Dragon hasn't been in the habit of doing so.| – Preceding unsigned comment added by PamD (talk • contribs) 19:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd be happier if everyone would wait to get all of these details worked out, before posting and !voting on new proposals. At this rate, we are chasing our tails, with new proposals coming out as soon as someone objects to something, and then there's an objection to the objection. This is frustrating, and not getting us anywhere. And instead of !voting on how stringent the restrictions need to be, let's try to get consensus on how stringent they need to be.
- Some editors are still saying that we can be fairly loose with how Dragon can edit in mainspace. Personally, I feel like all the evidence I've seen points against that, and I hope that those editors will come around to changing their minds. We have a ton of evidence of edits that cause harm in mainspace, in our reader-facing content, and it's more important, I think, to get that under control, than to hope for the best based on Dragon's enthusiasm for editing. Anyone who disagrees with that, please provide evidence to support your view.
- I also see some arguments that it is, supposedly, unfair to have too many AfDs going at one time. I'm not buying that. We cannot restrict other editors from filing more AfDs. If there's a community consensus to delete, then that should be that. Again, what stays in mainspace, or doesn't, matters more than giving some special consideration that would outweigh consensus.
- I think it's getting clear that we also need to restrict him from editing category space, and that the supervised cleanup needs to be deemed "successful". As for userspace, I agree with restricting against new content creation in userspace (essentially: no userspace drafts, as well as no AfC drafts), but I think other uses of userspace, including user talk, and using the space as a sort of scratchpad for the supervised cleanup, should be permitted. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The user demonstated enough maturity and will to take criticism and improve. Yes, him being neurodivergent makes that harder to accomplish, but he just wants to contribute; stop killing his enthusiasm and help him improve instead. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – WP:CIR and WP:NOTTHERAPY also apply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the intermittent explosive disorder. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance). – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for those very constructive thoughts. I appreciate what you are saying. I know KJP1 very well, and I have high confidence in both him and Cremastra to provide exactly the kind of guidance you recommend. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Est. 2021 He's had quite a lot of both time and guidance already. PamD 10:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the intermittent explosive disorder. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance). – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – WP:CIR and WP:NOTTHERAPY also apply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd agree the debate is getting a bit lost in the weeds. Are there not basically two views? I think there is agreement that we don't currently want new articles being created, either directly or through AfC, until clear evidence of improvement, gained through engagement in reviewing the 400+ already created, is presented at appeal. Some think that is sufficient, and editing in mainspace should otherwise be permitted, while others favour limiting editing in mainspace to the 400+, and to any related discussions, with others editors involved in clean-up/at AfD/etc. If that is the main point of difference, my suggestion would be that we err on the side of leniency and allow other editing in mainspace. If that proves problematic, we can always come back here. I think there is great benefit in reaching agreement, and enabling Cremastra, myself and others to begin working with DragonofBatley on reviewing the 400+. That will enable them to demonstrate their commitment, give solid evidence as to their ability to learn and to improve their editing, and clean-up the articles for the benefit of readers. KJP1 (talk) 07:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good summary of how I see things too. If leniency is the path, I think we’ll be back here soon. Recent editing while this thread has been going on shows a lot of new problems being created but no progress on the clean up. I think we’re likely to see as many problems being created as are being sorted, but I’ll bow to the consensus if it goes that way. SchroCat (talk) 07:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1, I have started to engage with your sandbox you tagged me. I can see some already noted and some already seeing afd afm and redirect. I think you'd be better off tagging me more for articles needing a clean up desperately than ones being afd and confirmed as notable. Ill engage with that sandbox as its on my Watchlist and make necessary changes where needed. Not off a whim since your going back to the start of my time on this site. It'll offload my workload and help with afd and afm to discuss deletion or merging. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too Sensory overload for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. KJP1 (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I, too, would like to move this towards a decision. It seems to me that the sticking point is over differing views about whether DoB should be placed under strict restrictions about editing, in order to control a history of negative effects upon our reader-facing content, or whether to allow DoB a greater amount of leeway in editing, based on his sincere desire to be a good contributor and consideration of his self-described status as neurodivergent. I think we need to go one way or the other on this, and once we do that, we can get to consensus. There's little point in editors repeating what we have already said, and going back and forth over that. I think we should look at the evidence we have, and seek a consensus – not unanimous consent, but WP:CONSENSUS. And nobody here is coming from a position of personal dislike of DoB, or wanting to get rid of DoB. We wouldn't be working so hard on crafting this, if that were the case.
- The editors, including me, who favor strict restrictions have provided a significant amount of evidence, based on edit history and continuing edits, to support that view. In my opinion, editors who oppose those restrictions are acting more out of a feeling, rather than based upon the actual characteristics of mainspace edits. At least, that's my opinion. I've been thinking hard about this, and it seems to me that stricter restrictions would provide DoB with structure while working to correct past mistakes and move forward into good editing status. And I believe structure to be A Good Thing. A lack of structure would actually make things more difficult. Structure (just until such time as the restrictions can be lifted) would be helpful. I really hope that we can agree on that. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I encouraged KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm ND and lurking so I'm chime in.
- I was thinking of a short period of being restricted to fixing their articles (perhaps with a specific mentor) before being allowed more freedom to generally edit, then any other restrictions can be lifted over time?
- They've admitted that they have issues with sensory overload already, so having a tight focus on exact tasks with goals to aim for could be really helpful in this case. It will also ensure that the affected articles aren't left by the wayside, as there are so many of them.
- Having a visual list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed will also be a good motivator and incentive - another useful tool for ND editors.
- TLDR: I think we should aim for structure & focus on specific, clear tasks, with incentives for reaching certain goals. The best way to do this would be to restrict to fixing the articles then gradually expand the scope of editing over time. Blue Sonnet (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet
list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed
there's User:KJP1/sandbox10-DoB. Cremastra (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet
- It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I encouraged KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. KJP1 (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too Sensory overload for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles
Citation bot keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on User talk:Citation bot#Incorrect reference dates, however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.
Diffs:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legend of 14 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. EF 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. EF 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. EF 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- You can add this to the page in question – {{bots|deny=Citation bot}} – or you can add this to a specific citation – {{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}} – to keep the bot away. See -- Stopping the bot from editing. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that Citation bot did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on Ludlow Massacre, see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a diff. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is not a user script, but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:
- "All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."
- -WP:Bot policy Legend of 14 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the person who is using the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Most of these seem to have been invoked by Abductive, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493
- Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.
- These edits were suggested by the following user:
- Legend of 14 (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
- Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)
- Suggested by user:
- Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates Legend of 14 (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is still about Citation bot. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by User:Spinixster. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
You have given the operators less than one day to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? Legend of 14 (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can see here the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- "All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."
- -WP:Bot policy
- WP:Citing sources is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you quote the part of WP:RS which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. this diff? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about your use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOTACC specifically says
The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account. Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot
. EF 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- 5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.
I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to WP:ASPERSIONS to me... - The Bushranger One ping only 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- 5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.
- As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) moved down from the middle of the above comment (original diff). – 2804:F1...CF:5599 (::/32) (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right?? Isaidnoway (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) moved down from the middle of the above comment (original diff). – 2804:F1...CF:5599 (::/32) (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- 5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unsupervised bot and script use has damaged thousands of articles. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix 2022 deaths in the United States (July–December).... XOR'easter (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're into the second batch of ReferenceExpander edits to check and clean up. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. XOR'easter (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to Whoop whoop pull up two weeks ago (read here) about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed me to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have continued to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at User talk:Whoop whoop pull up § Checking IABot runs. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. Both should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here neither. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOTP is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.
- Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- WP:BOTACC says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
- BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of WP:ROLE. Now, ROLE does have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple managers", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're developed and maintained by a team of people (rather than ones that can be used by multiple people).
- Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to 50,000 pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the only people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they were, in fact, approved implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
- WP:BOTCOMM seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
- WP:BOTREQUIRE says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
- WP:BOTCONFIG provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
- Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- WP:BOTMULTIOP says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved despite the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).
- Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- Whoop whoop pull up 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.
- "Both should take reponsibility"
- -Phil Bridger at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 Legend of 14 (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.
- Policy is very clear, don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. XOR'easter (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Or, as the same page quoted above puts it:
Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked.
XOR'easter (talk) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot has not been
approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking
. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at User:Citation bot § Bot approval. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. Folly Mox (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- ☝🏽It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against Abductive or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion somewhere specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping AManWithNoPlan, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. Folly Mox (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots and checking the results. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, Folly Mox (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots and checking the results. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- ☝🏽It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against Abductive or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion somewhere specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping AManWithNoPlan, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. Folly Mox (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"
Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. CNC (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 Folly Mox (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there anything left here to discuss? Liz 03:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. Legend of 14 (talk) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why is that example wrong? The source code of the webpage says
"datePublished":"2023-02-25T18:46:42+00:00",. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- Because the webpage made unknown modifications after that date. "<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2023-09-04T22:23:52+00:00" />" view-source:https://worldribus.org/east-antarctica-ranges/. Legend of 14 (talk) 04:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- If a news article had a modified date, for example created on January 1 but maybe a correction was made on Jan 3, then you would want the date shown to be Jan 1 because that is how articles are cited (and later found). How is a bot supposed to know you might want the modified date instead of the creation date? ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1. Not a news article.
- 2. Intention is irrelevant. These edits are disruptive regardless.
- 3. Maybe program it to not add dates to modified works. Legend of 14 (talk) 04:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- If a news article had a modified date, for example created on January 1 but maybe a correction was made on Jan 3, then you would want the date shown to be Jan 1 because that is how articles are cited (and later found). How is a bot supposed to know you might want the modified date instead of the creation date? ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because the webpage made unknown modifications after that date. "<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2023-09-04T22:23:52+00:00" />" view-source:https://worldribus.org/east-antarctica-ranges/. Legend of 14 (talk) 04:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why is that example wrong? The source code of the webpage says
- The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. Legend of 14 (talk) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
User:PEPSI697 bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools
- PEPSI697 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.
My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) a message for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person made a discussion on the talk page about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me this message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I didn't understand what exactly was the issue, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I wish him merry Christmas, he wishes me, everything is fine.
Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is hounding my edits. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor (Augmented Seventh): 1, 2, 3. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.
I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi replaced my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential talk page guideline violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to seek clarification as to why they did this on their talk page. In their response to me, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me this message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see this edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me this message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. This edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.
I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - here they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when he has gotten the same message twice for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of reverting edits without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. jolielover♥talk 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and assume good faith, you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. jolielover♥talk 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. Here, for example, they say:
Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please.
. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. C F A 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. (1, 2, 3, 4 5, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). jolielover♥talk 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing
no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism
is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. Simonm223 (talk) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing
- In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments demanding that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. jolielover♥talk 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. C F A 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
- @Jolielover: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are obvious vandalism.
- Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway,
You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents
- right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you will stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you might stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. jolielover♥talk 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) @PEPSI697: A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page here, here and here. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at WP:YOUNG and WP:REALWORLD because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on your user talk page that you get
stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it
when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been previously been warned about. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if yousometimes don't understand what some words mean
, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) - Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway,
- @CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
- About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future
- I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day.
- 1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content.
- 2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one.
- 3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly?
- Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool.
- 2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection.
- 3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. jolielover♥talk 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I accept your apology. jolielover♥talk 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Response and apology from PEPSI697
The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the WP:PRIMER or looking at the task center? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.
- Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. NewBorders (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is guidance on how to use the
{{Talk header}}found on its documentation page at Template:Talk header#Should this be added to every talk page? and also at WP:TALKLEAD. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in WP:CONTRIBUTE and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like WP:GUILD, WP:DEORPHAN, WP:HELPWP, WP:URA, WP:RANPP for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at WP:RAILWAY or WP:STATIONS. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)- Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with Bell railway station, Melbourne, but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get Preston railway station, Melbourne article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is guidance on how to use the
- Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Perhaps an administrator could close this discussion and all its related sub-discussions now that the OP and PEPSI697 seem to have amicably resolved their issue. Maybe all that's needed here is a firm warning to PEPSI697 to try to be careful in the future, and perhaps some encouragement to try not to over use these tools if doing so risks placing them in high-stress situations where they might lose their cool, with a reminder that the community might be less understanding the next time around if they end up back at ANI for doing something similar. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good idea there. I agree that me, Jolielover and the others involved resolved this issue. I absolutely agree with this idea to give a firm warning on my talk page. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 08:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you
absolutely agree with
isn't really all that relevant to what the community ultimately decides to do, and continuing to post here only runs the risk of you somehow making your situation worse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok, sorry. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you
Non-neutral paid editor
@EMsmile is heavily editing Solar_radiation_modification in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. Andrewjlockley (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:
- Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
- Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
- - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
- Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.
- An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably WP:NOTHERE. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. Simonm223 (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- done Andrewjlockley (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly WP:GF reasons for them.
- By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as "has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world" and "The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality" + "The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"? Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate WP:NOTNEWS and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a very strong statement cited to...an obscure book, seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
- Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally WP:RECENT, and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. If that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, then it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
- Do you really think phrases like "China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments." are consistent with WP:NPOV? Really? Maybe cutting all of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
- That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently an internal publication of the Central Bank of Hungary. It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.
- In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably WP:NOTHERE" seems downright Kafkaesque. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like Climate change, you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't bad by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply not good enough or relevant enough for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.
- Given this context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not obligated to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @EMsmile's paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @Andrewjlockley provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/
- My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. TERSEYES (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Adding: Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 TERSEYES (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- An editor with a declared COI should never be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the
strongly discouraged
wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --Aquillion (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Aquillion So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this (Redacted)?
- Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that if Earth System Governance is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering is not even seen anywhere on their front page - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as Research Framework. The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)
- that would be wrong. See WP:SELFCITE; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we want editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS Having a perspective on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. WP:PAID editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then WP:COI needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.
- It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's not the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change
strongly discouraged
toprohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism)
. I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though. - Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be manually saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that
editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests
- but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I need to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to this case, rather than a general statement. - Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's not the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change
- If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this
Uh, guys? Does WP:OUTING mean nothing to you? - The Bushranger One ping only 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the principles of privacy still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. TiggerJay (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could we get an edit to WP:OUTTING for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
WP:BOOMERANG back to Andrewjlockley
- I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. However, that does not change the fact she has been one of a literal handful of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in WikiProject: Climate change over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.
- With that in mind, I would like to say I have great difficulty assuming WP:GF here - not when the OP editor (Redacted), which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective and when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.
- I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report, the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of Chapter 16 of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.
- P.S. This is really not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- See WP:BOOMERANG... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.
- All of this is pertinent. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that EMSmile has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that Andrewjlockley is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. WP:OUTING concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.
- The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If InformationToKnowledge is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be they both should be though.
- Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. TiggerJay (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please reread WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS. The suggestion that being a published academic on a subject constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of WP:EXTERNALREL, which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- as per (Redacted) is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.
- Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to WP:SELFCITE. Simonm223 (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.
- If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for WP:COI that arises as a result.
- With regards to SRM has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the version of 15 May 2024). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
- AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for more SRM research in their day job (Redacted). Also, User:Thisredrock explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be against doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
- I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by User:Thisredrock on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
- Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). EMsmile (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery orDARVO, but I'll respond anyway.
- I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.
- Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way Andrewjlockley (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wish to clarify the relationship between the Earth System Governance project (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the campaign for a 'Non-use Agreement' (NUA) on solar radiation modification (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.
- Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was the founder of ESG and its first chair, for ten years, and is the editor in chief of its journall. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is a member of ESG's 11-member leadership board , one of five authors of its current implementation plan , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of ESG's series of short books. By quick count, of the other 14 authors on the NUA's founding paper, one other is on the governing board, at least eight are lead faculty, at least two are senior research fellows, and one is among the journal's six editors.
- In the other direction, of ESG's 11-member governing board, eight have signed the NUA sign-on statement.
- The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. TERSEYES (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TERSEYES, would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? TiggerJay (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.
- For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an oversight on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? jp×g🗯️ 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- ... gonna ask in talk page of WP:OUTTING if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The Bushranger, I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. Liz 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: the diff of them placing it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is here - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - The Bushranger One ping only 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named User:Johnjacobjingleheimer, then it constitutes WP:OUTING (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. jp×g🗯️ 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? jp×g🗯️ 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at WP:OUTTING think it would be easier to avoid.
- opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases.
- alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? jp×g🗯️ 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on their admission of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant WP:HARASSMENT and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't WP:OUTING people or contacting their employers. CaptainEek ⚓ 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding.
- Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts.
- BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point,
- the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous.
- AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I also wanted to question this block. I'm not familiar with all the applicable[REDACTED] rules and conventions, but if I found out that eg the Heritage Foundation had been paying a contractor to edit the climate change page, I would hope that editors would 1) question the contractor and their edits, and 2) separately write to the Heritage Foundation to ask what they were up to. The latter wouldn't qualify as harassment in my book, just a sensible response to a legitimate concern about the integrity of wikipedia.
- Fwiw I also don't think that EMsmile should be blocked because ultimately we don't know whether they were paid by ESG to push the ideological line of the NUA campaign. Given their long history as an editor, and the fact they conduct themselves with courtesy and decency, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Thisredrock (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Does Wikimedian in Residence apply?
EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit[REDACTED] seems analagous to | wikimedian in residence. See also WP:WIRCOI. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no WP:TEND. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. EMsmile (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- My situation is totally different to @EMsmile. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @EMsmile adjusting the page to favour her client (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the SRM article here. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per WP:DUE.
- Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding WP:OUTTING- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.
- Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. EMsmile (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. EMsmile (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile
Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. EMsmile is a paid editor who violated WP:OUTING - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight are highly disruptive - and that's notwithstanding the paid editing. Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. Proposal withdrawn. I think I was a bit hasty. Now supporting topic ban below. Simonm223 (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose block, support WP:TROUTing EMS for almost WP:OUTTING, WP:TROUTing AJL for aggressive interactions, warning ITK for WP:OUTTING.- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.- the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically WP:WIRCOI suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- From WP:WIRCOI
WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages
- this seems not to be the case here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)- like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.
- want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi appliesBluethricecreamman (talk) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by Bluethricecreamman - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. Thisredrock (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. Bluethricecreamman has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether EMsmile was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. Simonm223 (talk) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see User:EMsmile apologize for the WP:OUTING that occurred. Allan Nonymous (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. EMsmile (talk) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strong oppose (uninvolved) there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in simple ignorance (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not WP:PUNISH).
- That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, it fails a DUCK test, and looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor. What I see is a properly disclosed WP:PAID editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors. Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't WP:CPUSH going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :TiggerJay (talk) 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.
- However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for 'potential civil-POV which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like this might come off is overly whitewashing, but
China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.
but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does call into need for a closer look, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group
- mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- From WP:WIRCOI
- Strong support. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, WP:NOTTHEM applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that WP:PAID only strongly discourages paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --Aquillion (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose and IMO unthinkable They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit
: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.
I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)- Personally, I am much more concerned about undeclared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. North8000 (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. Liz 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet WP:SOCK . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I meant meat puppet. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet WP:SOCK . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Tentative oppose - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. — Rhododendrites \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates with no opinion on indef block at this time.
From what I can see, Earth System Governance looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the COI guideline: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide custom that Wikimedians in Residence do not edit about their institution" (emphasis in the original). Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination:
- August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA.
- Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary.
- Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with WP:PAYTALK , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of WP:TPO.
When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil.
EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.
." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page.
" Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client.
It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
I looked at Earth System Governance Project last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics written 73% of the article, in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing.
I added the paragraph below to my comment at around the same time as EMSmile's response below ESG, like many non-profits, probably wants to help Misplaced Pages but needs guidance on our rules. It is very common for non-profits to see Misplaced Pages as a form of social media presence and to want to leverage Misplaced Pages to build their brand. Brand-building is not where the opportunity is on Misplaced Pages. The opportunity is to improve Misplaced Pages articles in the organization's area of expertise using top-quality sources. A best outcome for all this would be for EMSmile to stop the COI edits and then work with ESG to pivot the project in a more productive direction.
Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello User:Clayoquot, we know each other well from working on the same articles as part of WikiProject Climate Change. My client for the project under discussion here is the "Earth System Governance Foundation" (not the project (Earth System Governance Project (which is an alliance), nor the concept earth system governance itself). So when you say that I should "immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder", then who do you mean? Strictly speaking it would be the "Earth System Governance Foundation". They don't have a Misplaced Pages article about themselves, neither do they have a website.
- FWIW: If you look at the history of two articles that you mentioned: earth system governance and Earth System Governance Project, then I think you can see that I actually made them a lot better, not worse (compared with their versions from about early July last year). I added better sources and more nuanced content, including criticism and debates. If there are still unsourced, overly promotional statements in there, then this needs to be addressed (probably best on the talk pages or with direct edits of course).
- FYI: The Earth System Governance Project is “a global research network that aims to advance knowledge at the interface between global environmental change and governance. The network connects and mobilizes scholars from the social sciences and humanities researching at local and global scales.” It is not an advocacy group. It is not my client nor employer. There is also no official/legal/formal connection between the ESG Foundation and the ESG Project.
- If a topic ban was imposed, would such a topic ban for me for Earth System Governance Project apply only to the duration of this particular consultancy or for life? Also a topic ban from earth system governance? Would I still be allowed to propose changes on the talk pages? And would the ban stop when my consultancy stops (likely in a few months), or be there for life?
- Just to clarify for those following this ANI: the bulk of my 60 000 edits were done in a volunteer capacity; and a certain proportion (it would be hard to estimate exactly what proportion) was done for different clients (they are mentioned on my profile page). Those clients are all mission-aligned and are not for profits or even corporations. I have no "agenda" that I am pushing. All I want to do is improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles in the area of climate change and sustainable development. A lot of my work is actually just about readability improvements.
- Also just to clarify: when I mentioned "personal attacks" in that post that you, Clayoquot, linked to, I wasn't referring to attacks in this thread but I meant AJL's aggressive/confrontational comments on my talk page, and also on the talk page of SRM. It felt like a personal attack when someone writes on my talk page "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down. I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client." EMsmile (talk) 17:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't paid editing or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are directly adding quotes from the project's mission statement, which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact they even use the same website, which states that
he Earth System Governance Foundation also serves as legal representative of the Earth System Governance research community.
This is hardly what I would call "no official/legal/formal connection". Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't paid editing or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are directly adding quotes from the project's mission statement, which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact they even use the same website, which states that
- yeah, thats clearly a COI vio. let's report to WP:COI/N, or something else. EMS, it does not matter you made an article better, or are unbiased... COI's destroy the appearance of neutrality. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- did report to WP:COI/N Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does matter (which doesn't mean I agree that they do make the article better -- that's outside my expertise). Just a point of order: we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive. I understand there are some editors who will say things like "editing with a COI is not allowed", but that's flatly incorrect in policy terms. It's not in the spirit of a Wikipedian-in-Residence program, but if EMsmile claims to be a WiR it's not on their user page or in this thread, as far as I can tell (and being a WiR isn't usually an effective shield anyway -- it's more a signal that someone is knowledgeable and following best practices such as, yes, not editing about the institution that hires you). We're talking about a standard paid editor, not a WiR. If the changes were constructive and transparent, there would be no reason for action. Evidence of editing with a COI isn't relevant to a sanction except where it's not transparent or not constructive, and my understanding of this section is that multiple people take issue with the quality of EMsmile's edits (i.e. edits that fail NPOV, not merely an editor that has a COI; the relevance of highlighting a COI is that we rightly provide little-to-no leeway to COI editors to make content mistakes relevant to their COI). FWIW. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:COI/N put this back into our court. Simonm223 (talk) 13:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose indefinate block as seems excessive given her long history of useful edits. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Topic ban for EMsmile
I added this heading just now to break up a section that was getting long Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its
directaffiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project. This is the narrowest scope I can think of that would prevent the kind of disruption we have recently seen from you. I propose this topic ban be indefinite but appealable after 12 months. As you probably know, there's a good chance that you can avoid getting sanctioned if you commit to a voluntary restriction. I do not think at this time that you need to be banned from citing the scholarly works of ESG-affiliated people, however I strongly recommend you be very judicious and selective about the extent to which you do this. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)- Hi Clayoquot, I think your proposed topic ban is a good solution and way forward ("the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project."). I am happy to make a voluntary commitment to this restriction. I have no experience with such topic bans so I don't know the exact procedure. Do I put this on my profile page? Can you point me to an example where someone else has done this (maybe via my talk page)?
- By the way, the paragraph about the non-use agreement that is now (after some discussion) in the section on opposition to SRM research (second last paragraph) is pretty good in my opinion and does not need further changes at this stage (well, except the first sentence is a bit clunky, I already pointed that out on the talk page last week).
- SRM is part of the climate change topic complex and is thus, not surprisingly, a topic full of potential for debate and discussion (some people are strongly pushing for it, others are strongly warning about it), so I think further work is still needed and this article will evolve accordingly over time. Hopefully without any ANIs in the future. :-)
- I'll make sure I am more careful in future with respect to those grey areas while editing the solar radiation modification article as mentioned above by User:North8000. I could even commit that for the next few months, I don't make any edits to the solar radiation modification article directly but always go through the talk page (taking up the offer that North8000 suggested above: "I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged").
- Oh and should the section on my profile page where I explain how I manage any potential COIs that can arise from working for/with clients, need improvement and tightening? Happy to be given advice on this (maybe better on my talk page than here). EMsmile (talk) 22:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the topic ban, you can add it to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Voluntary. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about WP:DUE. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being
a pioneer in opposing SRM research
is sourced... to ETC Group itself). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 23:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) - EMsmile, thank you for being flexible on this. Just to make sure you are aware, a topic ban means you may not make any edits related to the topic in question, and this includes edits to talk pages. There is a small set of exemptions. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh, the talk pages as well? Fine by me for the talk pages of ESGP and its founder but not for the entirety of the SRM article, I am sorry. I think this would not be justified. It's also a bit impractical. With regards to Chaotic Enby's post above I could stress that there are also secondary sources for the non-use agreement, and that I could provide them on the talk page and then leave it up to others if they want to add them to the article or not.
- For background (if this helps, but it should rather be on the talk page of the SRM article, not here): The solar geoengineering non-use agreement is an academic initiative that simply believes SRM is a dangerous technology that should not be further developed, much like nuclear technology in the past and that powerful interests are funding it. That's it. That is why the topic is contentious. EMsmile (talk) 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I described above, I believe your edits regarding NUA at Talk:Solar radiation modification violated WP:PAYTALK quite egregiously. Do you disagree?
- Posting sources on a talk page is one of the milder forms of advocacy but it is still advocacy. Other editors are capable of finding the sources they want on SRM very quickly, and their searches for those sources will probably be less biased than your searches. I do not think the benefit of you sharing sources outweighs the risk of you using the talk page for COI advocacy. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree. I've used the talk page at SRM since middle of last year to reach consensus with other editors in a collaborative manner, like I always do. I tried to make my points in a concise manner, even if I sometimes failed (should make talk past posts shorter in future). Sometimes they might look like a "wall of text" because I copied a paragraph or even a whole section that is under discussion across. Of course there is always room for improvement but to be banned from writing on the talk page of SRM at all is in my opinion excessive.
- Please also note that the person who started this ANI originally said that I am doing "PR" for my client. This is not true. I can expand on this further but I think this is a content question, not one about procedures. Perhaps it's better to now let that his be handled in the COI noticeboard thread here?: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250119181200-Earth_System_Governance_Project. As was pointed out above by Rhododendrites: "we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive."
- I believe my edits for the solar radiation modification article have been transparent and constructive. The article is in fairly good shape now and does not include any "PR" for a certain "brand" or alike. EMsmile (talk) 09:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the topic ban, you can add it to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Voluntary. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about WP:DUE. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being
- The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its
Just to be clear, a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates would not stop you from editing the SRM talk page. It would only stop you from editing the SRM talk page on the topic of ESG and its affiliates. And regarding your history on the SRM talk page, I'm sorry I think you just don't get it. The length of your posts there is a symptom of the attitude that you expressed in other ways. You took the position that you, a paid COI editor, get an equal say in the editorial decision-making process. Instead of offering information and then deferring to the judgement of unconflicted editors, you repeatedly asked for the article to be made more favorable to your client. And unless you are topic banned I see no reason to think you will not do it again. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I'd like to know what other editors think of edits like this at SRM and this at Frank Biermann (an article written almost entirely by EMsmile while being paid by ESG). Do the uninvolved people here see these as PR or not PR? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- IMO if it were not for the PE aspect they look like pretty routine factual edits and I wouldn't use the term PR (by it's common meaning) for them. With the declared PE aspect I'd call it where it would be better to discuss and let them be put in by somebody else if they agree. North8000 (talk) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- (involved, as I've had disagreements with EMSmile before). To me, some of this doesn't quite look routine. For instance, using Biermann's website to say he's graduated with distinction (we rarely mention this), or his own website to state he's often used by the press, and namedropping in a highly-viewed article. It's not egregious, but it would raise eyebrows even without the PE aspect. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Femke, I've modified the Frank Biermann article accordingly now (I agree with you; this needed improvement - my bad). And just to explain: I had mentioned Frank Biermann in the SRM article because he played an important role in developing the non-use agreement in the first place, and not because I wanted to "name drop" him (137 pageviews per day for the SRM article in the last year is not exactly "a highly-viewed article"). But I do understand that this could be "eyebrow raising" in the overall context of this COI discussion.
- I would be happy to improve the Frank Biermann article further if there are still problematic aspects (or "PR"?) that I have overlooked so far. However, I think it's probably better if I give myself a voluntary restriction for this article and also for the Earth System Governance Project article, as well as the non-use agreement component of the solar radiation modification article. I have just now written about this voluntary restriction on my profile page here. I feel bad for the page watchers and admins that this ANI has gone on for such a long time now. Maybe we could draw it to a close now with this conclusion and voluntary topic ban? (if needed this could be fine-tuned through my talk page rather than through this ANI thread?) EMsmile (talk) 23:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- We are making some progress. Your voluntary restriction, as currently worded, is quite far off from a topic ban or even a mainspace topic ban. A topic ban on the ESGF would stop you from, for example, adding a mention of Biermann or the ESGP to articles like Solar radiation management. You have written about your client in multiple articles that are not in your voluntary restriction.
- At the very least - whether or not you have a voluntary restriction - you need to follow the COI guideline. Your comment above suggests that you don't recognize that you should have used a edit request to add Biermann's name to the SRM article. Are you willing to commit to following the entirety of the COI guideline, including the use of edit requests for any non-trivial edits that involve your clients? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 02:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. I find the voluntary restriction too little too late. I don't think it should be narrowly construed or time-constrained, as some COI remains after a paid position. Some of EMS' additions are egregiously non-neutral, such as adding the following to an infobox "focus=Stimulate a vibrant, pluralistic, and relevant research community for earth system governance" . You still claim on your user page that there is no organisational connection between the ESG Foundation and Project, despite their website stating the opposite, as pointed out 3 days ago. Working with a COI requires community trust, which I don't think exist anymore. I do wonder if this topic ban should be extended to future employers too? I can't find it back, but we have had discussions 3/4 years back already about more subtle COI editing on your part, where you promoted papers from individual scientists unduly, in exchange for them volunteering time to improve Misplaced Pages. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per Femke. jp×g🗯️ 11:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support and will withdraw my proposal above. Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose involuntary, as long as the details on the voluntary get confirmed North8000 (talk) 13:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per Femke. also this discussion has gone too long and is nearly 0.5 WP:TOMATs long. We should end it somehow, and some kinda editting restriction is warranted at this point. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per Femke, while a block is far too much, a topic ban (with or without edit requests) seems more reasonable. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer and I think extending it to future employers/clients makes sense. Once someone has started work on a project, it can be difficult or impossible to change the client's expectations. It is emotionally hard for the community to contemplate sanctions that affect an individual's current employment, so preventing that kind of situation is best for everyone. EMsmile does relatively well when working for clients who do not expect COI editing. I hope the guidance she is getting here will encourage her to seek those types of projects. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Voluntary restrictions
@EMsmile: Just clarifying
- When the Earth System Governance Project and Frank Biermann "zero editing" restrictions expire a year from now, of course if you were under any relevant PE arrangement all of the rules related to that would be in force.
- Did you say that you were under a relevant PE arrangement on the Solar radiation modification article? If not, please ignore the rest of this. If so, while still under it (until you explicitly say it is over), for the areas not covered by your "zero edit" self-restriction, would you agree to operate in a "doubly safe" mode in the other areas of the article? Until then, ask someone else to put in any edits that are not clearly merely-gnome edits?
Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Basile Morin, Arionstar and FPC
Everyone has cooled down and agreed to stop with the mishegas. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I was going to let this go as there has been no recent (within the past two days) hounding, until a comment by Basile Morin (talk · contribs) led me straight here.
Since at least January 3, I have seen a general pattern of Wikihounding on the FPC board involving accusations that ArionStar (talk · contribs) has engaged in sockpuppetry on Wikimedia Commons, something I find only of minimal relevance with FPCs. I have counted at least three times where a user (Charlesjsharp (talk · contribs)) has copy-and-pasted the following message on a nomination ArionStar has started:
- Comment I notify other voters that the nominator has been banned on Commons and has been insulting on this page towards another user. (at Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Popeye, Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Hajji and Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Jimmy Carter 2)
Not only is this failing to focus on content, it's also completely irrelevant to a process involving images. It's sort of like telling people to oppose an FAC because they haven't given good reviews. I would have left this here, until another user (Basile Morin), who has also engaged in Wikihounding, decided to directly attack me and ArionStar instead of constructively responding to my concerns. What really damns me is this comment, in full. I was struck with the flu, so was unable to respond, but I think I'll just bring it directly here, seeing how this isn't the first time this has happened:
There is no "target" as you imagine, and each of us would like to be able to calmly evaluate new quality nominations as we are supposed to see in this section. Rather than being asphyxiated by an avalanche of weak candidates, all precipitated by the uncontrolled frenzy of a hyper-impulsive participant. Furthermore, no user is obliged to come and provoke conflicts via illegitimate puppets, and even less so if you don't want us to be interested in you. You are "kinda new to the whole FPC process", EF5, according to your own words. Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months (User:Sir MemeGod, User:WxTrinity, User:MemeGod27...), and you also use alternative accounts. Some of your recent nominations are orphans and you're probably not the "author" of the photos on which you yourself are the subject. Above, you wrongly mention a "retaliatory opposing" when if that had been Charles' intention, he could have voted "oppose per JayCubby" to bring down this nomination even faster. But Charlesjsharp is usually an excellent reviewer, also a photographer and nominator, regular on WP:FPC and COM:FPC, with more than 530 images promoted on Commons and 303 on Misplaced Pages. I think the idea he expresses is mainly a serious fed-up feeling, to see, once again, a deluge of nominations coming from the same overexcited account. The fact is that ArionStar is here only because he was banned from Commons, unfortunately that is the sad reality. However, the goal is not to repeat here the same mistakes as those made there. Note also that, just after being asked to calm down, ArionStar turns a deaf ear and reiterates, as if he were absolutely seeking his sanction. Obtuse insistence is bound to annoy even the calmest and most patient people. It is obvious that if you want to progress and maintain good relationships with others, you must first be able to become aware of your mistakes, and the reasons for your failures. There is no hunt against ArionStar, but no "special indulgence" either. In my opinion, Charles has mainly tried a kind of moderately subtle "subliminal message" aimed at the participant himself, who would do better to listen once and for all to the good advice, rather than ignoring it and making fun of others. This generous advice has been offered countless times, well before he was banned. Kind regards -- Basile Morin
I mean, what kind of comment is this? Whatever it is, it needs to stop. "Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months" is just cherry-picking things I've done, with no actual regard to relevance. I really don't think a "talk" is going to do much here (which I've already tried), so I'm bringing it here. — EF 17:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Charles and Basile don't commit to cutting it out, I think one way IBANs are definitely in order here. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- (ec) EF5, this is a confusing report to try to sort out although Voorts seems to be able to follow things here. Are you the only commenter here or is some of this content from another editor who didn't leave their signature? If this entire complaint is all from you can you identify, in one sentence, which editor you are complaining about (since several are mentioned here), whether or not you have notified them of this report and what exactly your "charge" is against them? Again, give the heart of your complaint in ONE sentence although you may include diffs. Thank you. Liz 18:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I am the only filer. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: As I understand the report, and from looking at the diffs, Charles and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that Arion is socking/engaging in harassment/vandalism at Commons. Basile and Charles have both been around for a long time and should know better. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you, voorts, for the summation. I am completely ignorant of what is going on at the Commons. It's enough for me to keep up with what's happening on this Wikimedia project of which I only barely succeed at, much less know who is socking or who is blocked on other projects. Liz 19:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- "and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that" => No, we did not vote here. -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The intent was clearly to cast aspersions on the entire nomination, even if you didn't use a bolded oppose. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Arionstar was indeed indeffed on Commons and has socked there, creating some bad blood among some FPC regulars. For better or worse, however, we regard the projects as independent. In fact, demonstrating constructive behavior on a different project is often a good strategy to appeal a block. As Arionstar continued socking at Commons, I don't think that's the goal, but the point stands that anyone who wishes to see Arionstar sanctioned here would need to open a thread on this board with diffs showing bad behavior here (or, at minimum, bad behavior elsewhere that's directly connected to conflicts here, such as harassing a user on Commons because of a dispute here). Absent consensus otherwise, Arionstar is AFAIK in good standing on enwp.
- Doesn't mean anyone's obliged to support his nominations, of course, and I don't blame the Commons regulars from not doing so. The only problem would be an opposition here solely due to behavior there, which (as much as I'm critical of enwp's FPC criteria) is probably not a valid reason for opposition. That said, I don't see that anyone has done that? At Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Popeye, Charles posted a comment and did not vote. Basile opposed, but provided clear reasons why, which didn't center on behavioral issues. Just not sure what there is to do here. Maybe this bit of advice will suffice: (a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is WP:ADVOCACY against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm learning from my mistakes and unilaterally made peace with Basile. The FP guidelines here are different but I'm understanding them day after day. ArionStar (talk) 18:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is WP:ADVOCACY against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
ArionStar's disruptions
(First, to take into account at the origin of this report by EF5, an annoyance perhaps caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination: Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Pilger twin tornadoes.)
Now, concerning ArionStar:
- ArionStar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
See:
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Buddha of Ibiraçu
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Kaaba 2 (now delisted and replaced)
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Tokyo Skytree (clear attack against me)
.jpg){kind=link}
My talk page also was "attacked" with some rather inappropriate puns on my first name (2, 3, 4, 5, 6).
WP:HARASS. These edits were reverted by User:RodRabelo7, with a warning in Portuguese language left to the user (translation here), before being restored by ArionStar as if my talk page was a battleground.
More worrying, A few days ago the same person used sockpuppets to pollute my account on Commons:
Exhausting. There have been a lot of lies by this same person, on Commons. Best regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regarding me being “mad about my failed nom”, that is casting serious WP:ASPERSIONS. I engaged because I saw what looked like uncivil behavior, not because one of my nominations failed. EF 19:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your subjective opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Basile Morin: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my rational vote. Regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's casting aspersions which is not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion. Last time I felt "forced" to cross out my comment, it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:WIKILAWYERING about "last time" doesn't help your case when you are casting aspersions. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your links. I will try to read these two "essays" in peace and quiet, as well as this "information page". I already wrote a friendly message below. All the best -- Basile Morin (talk) 05:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:WIKILAWYERING about "last time" doesn't help your case when you are casting aspersions. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion. Last time I felt "forced" to cross out my comment, it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's casting aspersions which is not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my rational vote. Regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Basile Morin: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your subjective opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at WP:SPI. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. Liz 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Attacks, attacks, he attacked"… I'll keep my silence because I try… (It's sad to see when someone "loses the line" after a "ceasefire request")
- P.S.: " annoyance perhaps caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination"… kkkkkkk (laughs in Brazilian Portuguese). ArionStar (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- ArionStar, I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. Liz 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Agree Thanks. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- ArionStar, I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. Liz 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at WP:SPI. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. Liz 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
On reflection Thank you. I would like to apologize to user EF5 if I may have made one or more errors of judgment regarding them. I do not know this user very well, and having noticed that they often change their name, use multiple accounts, and edit other users' personal pages, I may have indeed become too defensive. Since they are apparently very young in their photos, I may have made some wrong assumptions of behavior. It may also be the fatigue generated by the long repetitive puppet hunts on the other friend project. So all the better if this person (EF5) is reliable and well-intentioned. I don't blame them for anything, and I'm rather looking forward to getting back to my usual activities.
I agree with Rhododendrites' suggestion and thank him for his effort to calm things down: "(a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp." I understand that my approach was not the most tactful, sorry. I can nevertheless prove that the approach was 100% healthy and intended to help Misplaced Pages.
I have absolutely no problem with ArionStar contributing constructively to the development of the encyclopedia (if that is really his intention). However, I would also like to draw attention to the fact that this wise warning from another user is in my humble opinion far from being "vandalism" as the other imagines. This is perhaps a most important point. The last thing I claim is the need for ArionStar to immediately and permanently stop using unproductive puppets. Neither elsewhere nor here. See WP:BADSOCK "Good hand" and "bad hand" accounts.
I noticed that after self-imposing a "wikibreak" they reverted another user to my own talk page, thus adding to the annoying noise. I would therefore be grateful if ArionStar would never again try to get in touch through this channel. I need peace and concentration.
Finally, I am happy, personally, to make an effort of discretion. I have accepted the criticisms that have been addressed to me, and sincerely consider them constructive. Thank you to each and every one of you. I wish you all fruitful research and rich contributions on Misplaced Pages. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In addition, I'll ignore any report about me coming from you here on Misplaced Pages. ArionStar (talk) 04:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza
- Aubrey Plaza (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Religião, Política e Futebol (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- ZanderAlbatraz1145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Religião, Política e Futebol and ZanderAlbatraz1145 have both been edit warring at Aubrey Plaza over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration.
Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. Kingsif (talk) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - The Bushranger One ping only 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. Kingsif (talk) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. Nil Einne (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. Liz 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at Talk:Aubrey Plaza, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Sundayclose: Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says,
This complaint is not about the content directly
. We are not discussing the content you're disputing, but it would be great if you did try to gain some consensus at the article talkpage. Kingsif (talk) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Sundayclose: Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says,
- Though I honestly thought I'd waited too long to take further steps to protect a highly-viewed article, fair enough. PP has helped over the weekend: while IMO the history is easy enough to follow in terms of seeing what would have been needed for immediate preventative/protective measures, yes it is a bit more complicated. Full post to follow. Kingsif (talk) 12:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at Talk:Aubrey Plaza, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- There have been numerous edits to the Aubrey Plaza article since 4 January, when it was announced her husband had died, later declared a suicide. Most of the edits revolve around adding this information and how to describe her husband in the rest of the article. Most seem to be well-intentioned, don't all meet best practice for BLP editing, but generally can be resolved with corrective edits.
- Separately, since 29 December, some users have been attempting to add a lot of information about the BLP subject's ethnic background and non-notable extended family.
- The first edit to add this information was on 29 December by IP 94.63.205.236. This was bot-reverted for the bad source. The same IP reinstated the edit moments later. Diffs:
- @Sundayclose: Then reverted the edit later that day, again with sourcing concerns. Diff: Sundayclose also warned the IP about BLP, and the IP went dormant.
- During all the editing on 4 January, another IP, 74.12.250.57, changed some of this info (describing Ashkenazi Jewish as Native American) for probably malicious reasons: - while another, 2600:1000:b107:a865:e028:5f95:de45:c803, removed some of the ethnic background info with a strange edit reason ("Updated"):
- The article was then confirmed-protected for two days.
- On 10 January, @Religião, Política e Futebol: made two edits (that for content purposes we will consider as one) to reinstate, and further expand upon, the information on family and ethnic background. Edits:
- Another IP, 2a00:23c6:ed85:7d01:3d25:a335:96f5:4b40, undid the edits on 10 January, again with sourcing and BLP concerns. Diff:
- On 14 January, Religião reinstates their version without explanation. Diff:
- On 15 January, I (Kingsif), undid this with the same source/BLP concerns. I also mention more specifically what could be BLP issues, and recommend using the talkpage to discuss the edit. Diff:
- Also on 15 January, Religião adds the information back. In their edit reason, they seem to acknowledge the BLP specifics I mentioned but then claim that their content is not an issue. They also say that they don't need to discuss. Diff:
- On 16 January, I (Kingsif), again remove the information. I address the content and sourcing concerns more forcefully, and the need for discussion. I warn Religião that their behaviour in the circumstances constitutes edit warring. Diff:
- Also on 16 January, Religião once again added back the content. Their edit reason asked why they can't add personal information on non-notable people: a lack of knowledge of BIO policy, but unwillingness to do anything about that instead of edit-war. Diff:
- I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
- In regards to the mention of Baena's suicide, this was first added shortly after it was first reported on 4 January.
- @DiaMali: did much of the immediate updating, including adding and removing this before it was confirmed. Diff:
- Over the next two days, the mention was removed and reinstated by various other users based on industry sources/lack of confirmation. E.g.: , ,
- The edit-warring really began on 6 January, when @Ibeaa: removed the mention. At this point, the suicide had been confirmed, and Ibeaa did not provide a reason. Possibly worth noting is that Ibeaa's edit was made the exact minute the article's protection was removed. Diff:
- On 7 January, IP 2804:d41:cb23:cc00:f4ae:3bc:747e:e196 adds it back. Diff: Also on 7 January, Ibeaa removed it and the reference without explanation. Diff:
- The next user to re-add the info was @ZanderAlbatraz1145:, who also did not use an edit reason, on 9 January. Diff:
- The IP 2800:355:9:f9f3:3059:222e:2783:93b8 removed it, without an edit reason, on 11 January. Diff:
- @Sundayclose: reverted the IP on the same day. Diff:
- Ibeaa then removed the mention again, also on 11 January. Diff:
- Zander then adds it back on 13 January, still without a reason. Not massively relevant, but Zander used the deprecated phrasing
committed suicide
for the first time in this edit, which IP 50.71.82.63 fixed. Diff: - Between 13 and the morning (GMT) of 15 January, Zander added and Ibeaa removed the information five times each, no edit reasons in sight.
- I (Kingsif) removed it on 15 January, tucked into the BLP edit, to try and stop the pair from edit warring by saying it should also be discussed. I should have probably done them as separate edits. Diff:
- Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 15 January. Diff:
- On 16 January, I again removed it as part of the larger edit. I made a clearer separation in this edit reason, to explain that because inclusion is (clearly) contentious, it should be discussed. Diff:
- Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 16 January. Diff:
- Ibeaa removes it, without a reason, also on 16 January. Diff:
- Sundayclose added it back on 16 January, with the explanation that it is
accurate and properly sourced
. FWIW, while accurate, it was sourced to People magazine, which ten days earlier was not accepted as a suitable source for the same information at the Jeff Baena article. Recently-deceased needs more than a celebrity magazine that actually says "unconfirmed but believed". More pressing, I would expect Sundayclose to have pushed for discussion as the inclusion was clearly contentious. Diff: - Ibeaa then removed again on 16 January, with the reason that they didn't know why they were still pursuing the edit war. I would have honestly interpreted that to mean they weren't going to continue, but anyway. Diff:
- Ibeaa's conduct was already reported here at ANI by Sundayclose, on 17 January, and they were blocked quickly. Archive.
- I don't know and won't speculate as to why Sundayclose did not also report Zander at this time.
- After Ibeaa is blocked, Zander continues their side of the edit war on 17 January, still without providing an edit reason. Diff:
- I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
- Zander then adds the information back, without starting a discussion, before page protection is applied. They appear to have seen this ANI report, as they included an edit reason. Included in the edit reason is that it didn't seem
vital enough
to explain themselves, which I can't accept in good faith given they were going back-and-forth directly with Ibeaa and had been told to discuss since the inclusion had proven contentious. Diff:
- This is a lot of data. But it seems like if edit-warring is the problem, a complaint filed at WP:ANEW or a request for page protection at WP:RFP would be more suitable than ANI. Liz 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- You know I'm not a massive fan of ANI and would really prefer to dump data and let y'all assess it yourselves, but if this is to be pursued beyond the immediate article protection (as you can see, it seems to be a magnet), then as I see it what we have is: one case of not-too-bad edit warring from Religião, but with quite BIO/BLP sensitive information and a user who has indicated they will not abide if they disagree, and then one case of probably fine content from Zander, but with truly chronic edit warring and the attitude that since the other guy was blocked they're righteous. Both users have been informed of BLP-contentious but the intersection of the actual edit warring with their flippant-at-best attitudes and the particular sensitive area, makes me think that some further addressing (at least asking them to acknowledge the issues) is needed to make sure it doesn't recur. Kingsif (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Death threats by 2.98.176.93
BLOCKED Blocked and TPA revoked, nothing further. (non-admin closure) Heart 07:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2.98.176.93 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Left a death threat here - diff
Adakiko (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note: 30 day block by Bbb23 (talk · contribs) Adakiko (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Death threat left after block. Talk page access? Adakiko (talk) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- TPA removed. Liz 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. Liz 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - The Bushranger One ping only 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. 2600:1011:B331:28FE:1036:B7B1:4292:C997 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you use Twinkle, you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. Liz 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you use Twinkle, you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Exactly, The Bushranger, thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. Liz 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See WP:UTRS for your options." Cullen328 (talk) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. 2600:1011:B331:28FE:1036:B7B1:4292:C997 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - The Bushranger One ping only 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated copyvios by Manannan67
- Manannan67 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Manannan67 has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (2020, 2020, a "final warning" in 2021 from Moneytrees, 2023, 2023), most recently from me, when I discovered a copyright violation they placed on Mariana de Jesús Torres. The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did remove one early warning from the talk page. Dclemens1971 (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to Anglo-Saxon mission which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. Manannan67 (talk) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to Mariana de Jesús Torres. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. Dclemens1971 (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." Manannan67 (talk) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I have no idea to what you are referring. As I said, I am not familiar with "Portraits of the Saints", nor do I know from where they got their info. Manannan67 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." Manannan67 (talk) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to Mariana de Jesús Torres. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. Dclemens1971 (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Naniwoofg
Naniwoofg (talk · contribs) has been the subject of a complaint at Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines#User:Naniwoofg for issues involving images and WP:IDNHT. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint includes refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. Borgenland (talk) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can we get a follow-up on this? @Naniwoofg has failed to respond to all inquiries on affected article talk pages, their user talk page, and the Tambayan PH talk page. We have been reverting their unexplained and unusual edits to the infoboxes of several Philippine road and building articles back and forth for the past few days. Ganmatthew (talk • contribs) 07:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support sanctioning this user. One latest questionable edit is on Pulilan article, which I partially fixed. Naniwoofg claimed to had updated the infobox images, but the user used an image of the Pulilan Church before the 2019 renovation. I replaced Naniwoofg's choice of the church image with the one image taken after the renovation. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Okvishal and years of self promotion
Okvishal indef'd. Article has been deleted (at its most recent title attempt, Vishal Raaj) and salt applied to all three variations that have been used. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Okvishal: has been an editor for 14 years. They have 138 edits but only 11 of them are non-deleted ones and those non deleted ones are also for self promotion or promotion of their feature film. A look at their talkpage shows the sheer scale of self promotional editing they have done over the course of their wikicareer. Right after joining they created an autobiography which was speedy deleted, they recreated the article under a different title and it was deleted (speedy) as well. Over the course of 14 years, they have recreated their article and those of related topics several times all leading to waste of community time through AfDs as Vishal Raj,Dream Lock,Nikkesha, and most recently at Vishal Raaj. It is clear that they are not (and never were) here to build an encyclopaedia. Consider blocking them and WP:SALTing Vishal Raj,Vishal Raaj,Raj Vishal etc. Nxcrypto Message 12:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've blocked them as it's clear they're only here to promote their non-notable self. Canterbury Tail talk 22:29, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of viewMisplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion, maybe more)
- Cherkash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see Russo-Ukrainian_War#Background, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4).
The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the Formula_one pages and even had raised the issue here (old link), with no visible actions following.
Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg
They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints.
Other examples can be seen from commons:Special:Contributions/Cherkash, such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: example 1, example 2
The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN International reactions to the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262, United Nations General Assembly resolution A/73/L.47, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4.
I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content. Unas964 (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the User talk page, e.g. about normalising separatist states, and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in the corresponding topic.
- I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via de facto statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often replicated by other contributors, which I cannot even comment on. Unas964 (talk) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here is a link to the last time this was raised here.
- The short form: there appears to be a dispute between use of de-facto or de-jure borders. That is why Taiwan comes up. Some editors appear to believe that it is more neutral to either use de facto borders (Taiwan independent, Crimea not part of Ukraine) rather than de jure borders (Taiwan = China, Crimea = Ukraine).
- I would suggest, whether de facto or de jurw borders are used the map should be consistent in that usage. I would also suggest that Unas964 (talk · contribs) should adhere to WP:AGF while Cherkash (talk · contribs) needs to start communicating with other editors at least minimally, which will likely ease such assumptions regarding their editing.Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In any case, what's the alleged misbehaviour here? We can't stop an editor uploading images on commons, nor can we do anything about what is in their categories. We can prevent these images being used in our articles but is the editor actually the one putting them in our articles? Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am the editor in question. I am Ukrainian. This is not anti Ukrainian, it’s anti nazi. Everything is true and properly sourced. Problems don’t get fixed unless you recognize them. I’ve given specific criticisms about the encyclopedia that are all true and added known contributors. This is not a anti Ukrainian effort and I’m very taken back by this accusation. Clearly nobody here is assuming good faith 2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321 (talk) 17:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Occupation of Crimea is anti nazi? What proper source can prove that? Only Russian propagandists exploit such a narrative. Unas964 (talk) 18:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
UN Resolutions are not Misplaced Pages guidelines. They're not even binding for the countries involved, let alone Misplaced Pages. UN Resolutions do not recognize Taiwan nor Israeli current borders, yet we recognize their independence and their de facto territories in out articles. De jure, there's no Taiwan, and Israel is still at war with Iraq since 1947. De jure, the Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union. Do we care? Misplaced Pages focuses on facts, the de facto state of the world, not bound by temporary laws made by temporary entities which often don't even recognize each other: according to Bhutan, de jure there's no Croatia; according to Greece, there's no Northern Cyprus; according to Serbia, there's no Kosovo; according to the UN, there's no Taiwan... should we follow them? Of course not. You're free to be pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian, as long as you stick to facts. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My only horse in this race is that Misplaced Pages should be consistent, at least at the level of any given artifact (such as a map), of showing either de jure borders, de facto borders or no borders at all. It is non-neutral to pick and choose de facto for thee, de jure for me. Simonm223 (talk) 14:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their de facto state. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Taiwan is de facto independent and de jure non-independent so I think you may have the terms backward there. However this speaks to my point - the important thing, from a neutrality position, is to stick to a consistent method of parsing these factual questions. Because, in a lot of these cases, it's not a matter of "facts over anything" but is rather making a positive decision which set of facts to prefer. It is a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine. It is also a fact that Crimea is not presently being administered by Ukraine and is thus de facto not part of that country. If we have a map that chooses to prefer the de jure condition of Crimea as part of Ukraine and then to use the de facto boundary between China and Taiwan this is now non-neutral. It's Misplaced Pages failing to set a consistent standard and instead going based on vibes.
- Standards must be consistent. Ideally these standards should be consistent across the project and documented in an MOS. Failing that these standards should be consistent within any given article. Failing that these standards absolutely must be consistent in an indivisible artifact such as a map.
- As a corollary it is in favour of Misplaced Pages's neutrality goals to prefer a consistent representation of borders, whether that is de facto, de jure or to not show national borders at all (which remains an option). Now I will note that I didn't see much in the way of talk page discussion or of edit summaries from @Cherkash - which I pointed out as somewhere they could improve in my original comment - but if Cherkash is, in fact, motivated by wanting a consistent standard for depicting national boundaries on a map then @Unas964 has seriously failed to assume good faith by depicting said forwarding of neutrality goals as if it were a hate-motivated attack on Ukraine. Simonm223 (talk) 15:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I don't
have the terms backward there
. I literally stated thatDe jure, there's no Taiwan
, and also what I meant forfacts, the de facto state of the world
. Please, work on your reading and comprehension skills before making such accusations. Misplaced Pages requires competence. // and no, it is nota fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine
, as de jurethe Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union
, as I had already wrote, because de jure the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet didn't have the authority to mandate land exchanges among constituent states, power which they only had de facto. Do better. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) - Taiwan is not de jure non-independent, de jure inherently requires picking a jure so to speak. It's a ruling from within a legal system, not a natural fact. That said, I agree picking maps with particular borders is not hateful conduct. If there's diffs of something else, it would be helpful to see them. CMD (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to that logic, any war crime or mass genocide could be justified by neutrality and Misplaced Pages:AGF. In theory, that does not align with Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT, since neutrality cannot allow for extremist views. Yet considering the replies here, I conclude that there is a consensus on Misplaced Pages that in the Russo-Ukrainian_War the positions of the victim and the aggressor are treated as equal or in favour of the former. Unas964 (talk) 17:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration Unas964 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is fast reaching WP:NOTFORUM territory. Simonm223 (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- We also have WP:RUSUKR. Mellk (talk) 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is fast reaching WP:NOTFORUM territory. Simonm223 (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration Unas964 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I don't
- @Simonm223: Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their de facto state. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is no point in speculating what was legal or not in a totalitarian state, where laws are primarily instruments for maintaining control and suppressing opposition rather than upholding justice (see e.h. here). The soviet/Russian viewpoint on Crimea has the same zero value as the position of Third Reich on the state of Israel. It cannot be attributed to the same weight as of the democratic countries as Ukraine, Israel, the US etc. In the same way, you could justify the Khmer Rouge terror, Tiananmen Square massacre, Holocaust and 9/11 attacks by some de facto laws. Soviet regime murdered tens of millions of people, and the current Russian legal system justifies that: not only Holodomor, the genocide of Crimean Tatars and the other indigenous minorities in Crimea, but in oher regions, as well (as e.g. Asharshylyk). That renders de facto maps a propaganda instrument of a malevolent state, which could not be accepted on any basis of neutrality.
- Yet you equalise the positions of tyranical dictatorships and democratic countries while rejecting the UN resolutions. I see this as a violation of Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT and consider not to be taken into discussion at all. Unas964 (talk) 07:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't help but notice that the editor this complaint is concerned with, Cherkash, hasn't responded and hasn't edited on the project since January 12th and has barely edited in 2025 at all. What was the urgency in posting this complaint right now, Unas964? Liz 03:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is urgent as long as there is the ongoing war undermining the Ukrainian territorial integrity. If Misplaced Pages policies (WP:RUSUKR,Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT etc) allow for undermining the legacy of Ukrainian state in favour of the aggressor, which such maps do under some consensus or de facto bodrers pretexts, then indeed it has no sense.
- If not, I shall propose to remove all of those maps in all relevant articles, treating them as tools to normalise the occupation of Crimea. Unas964 (talk) 07:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I'm a bit concerned that Unas964 has committed to continuing to edit in the Russia-Ukraine war CTOP after being informed of the ECR restriction. This includes continuing to argue about the map, calling a warning from another editor regarding WP:CANVAS "pro-Russian attacks." this whole thing at this thread among other diffs that I will leave off as being, you know, quite visible already in this conversation. I am concerned that they have a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality since their edit summary on my attempt to point them to WP:RGW was reverted with an edit summary of pro-Russian spam deleted - very similar to the previous pro-Russian attacks" comment. People are free to clerk their own talk pages as they see fit but to characterize "The encyclopedia, in fact, tries to be neutral regarding global conflicts, cleaving to what reliable sources say about those conflicts but generally making sure to attribute any notable opinions on the conflict to the opinion-holder," as pro-Putin is a bit of an alarming response as is responding to concerns regarding canvassing by accusing the editor of pro-Russian attacks. I am worried that Unas964, as in their interaction with Cherkash that led to this thread, is incapable of assuming good faith and also seems unwilling to comply with ECR restrictions surrounding the war in question. Simonm223 (talk) 13:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can confirm that - yes - I consider multiplying warnings and threats to me without any try to search an alternative or copromise a pro-Russian stand. I see no support either, only bullying to preserve the status quo of the pro-Russian view on the matter. Unas964 (talk) 14:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal - short duration block for Unas964
I am not going to ask for an indef here as I don't really want to bite the newbie but this has gone on for long enough. Unas964 is very aware that extended confirmed status is required to edit on the Russia / Ukraine conflict and yet continues not only to do so, but to do so in a way that is highly confrontational, completely fails to WP:AGF and that is replete with WP:NPA violations. They have a severe WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and hasten to accuse anyone who attempts to help them understand concepts such as WP:RGW of being Putinists. I think it's high time that they are demonstrated that such behaviour will have a consequence. A tban is inappropriate because this editor already should not be editing in this CTOP. So that really only leaves us with a block to get their attention and to hopefully stem this disruptive behaviour. Simonm223 (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support I completely agree with everything Simonm223 mentions. I also want to add that Unas964 doesn't seem to be taking others' rebuttals into account. Instead, he just either brushes them off or completely disregards them, as can be seen in basically this whole thread. Just scroll down and you'll see what I mean. SportscarFan2004 (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Hamzajanah posting vanity hoaxes and general NOTHERE behaviour
WP:NOTHERE user is no longer here. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Hamzajanah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm really struggling with this new user. They have posted Draft:Hamza JanaH and Draft:Hamza janaH both autobiographies and both contained multiple hoaxes. They are continually using Misplaced Pages as a WP:SOAPBOX and violating WP:NOTWEBHOST too. They are constantly boasting about their wealth, see this diff for example. They claim to be a close associate of William J. Burns (diplomat), Christopher A. Wray and Bob Ferguson (politician). They are also misusing their own talk page. I have not seen one constructive edit and their filter log is one of the worst I've seen and also warns us of "persistent sockpuppetry". This is bordering on WP:NOTHERE already. Their ability to navigate Misplaced Pages suggests that they might have had previous accounts and might even be an LTA vandal but I can't think who it is. Spiderone 17:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That filter is notoriously poor for detecting socks. I believe it was created with one sockmaster in mind, and yet based on how it functions (I'm not good at filters), comes up with many (mostly?) false positives.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that that's a fair outcome. Thanks all. Spiderone 18:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Edward Myer
- Edward Myer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Edward Myer was recently blocked for two weeks, for creating a sock account to retaliate against myself and another AfC reviewer whose reviews they didn't like. (The socking was just the tip of the iceberg, there's much more to this as their talk page shows.) That block expired a few days ago, and since then they're back on the war footing, complaining and insinuating here, there and everywhere; as well as posting similar stuff on the talk pages of UtherSRG, 28bytes and AmandaNP. I think this needs to stop; for one thing it's a time sink, and I for one really don't care for the belligerence. I don't think I should be the one to indef them, as I'm involved, but I'd be grateful if someone did. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 18:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not involved except insofar as I have declined Draft:Bruse Wane, but I saw their behaviour towards others and it made me consider whether I would make a review, especially to decline. A less resilient reviewer might well have avoided it.
- I confess that I am waiting for the invective, and I support DoubleGrazing's well measured request on that basis.
- My view is for one final attempt in case they are educable. If they are not then 'final' should mean 'indefinite editing restrictions' 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 18:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been WP:FORUMSHOPPING, . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at User:Edward Myer/sandbox. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. (talk) TiggerJay (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, the sandbox may have a better shot at acceptance! I aways believe in extending my good faith as far as possible. I have seen some remarkable turnarounds by doing so. Obviously there comes a point, but I am not wholly sure we are there yet. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been WP:FORUMSHOPPING, . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at User:Edward Myer/sandbox. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. (talk) TiggerJay (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the initiative in filing this ANI, DG; I was || this close to filing it myself. This user just doesn't get it. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. Edward Myer (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The above post is a duplicate of that posted at Help Desk. Schazjmd (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. Edward Myer (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Seems like a clear case of WP:NOTHERE and just wanting to push an article to mainspace and WP:IAR without even citing such. Sounds like a longer block may be necessary. TiggerJay (talk) 23:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Edward Myer, this is serious. Have you read over this complaint? Can you let this grudge go and go on to do some productive editing and let the past be the past? If you continue on this path, I don't see you editing on Misplaced Pages for the long term. This is a moment where you can choose to change your approach and turn around you time here as an editor. But it is up to your willingness to do so. Does that sound like something you can and want to do? Liz 02:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My field of expertise is Hip Hop. I do intend to do other articles on other subjects, and add relevant updates to current live articles. I'm here to be apart of the community and contribute to[REDACTED] in a specific field that I'm passionate about. I hold no grudge or ill will for no one. As I said to LiZ I had to get adjusted to how communication on[REDACTED] works. Edward Myer (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before any action is taken, I have made a substantial offer of assistance to Edward Myer on their user talk page. I am no-one special to make the offer, and I would like us to take a little time to see if it can be effective before reaching any conclusion. I have had some success before with helping editors who are in pain here. The offer is in the spirit of my early post in this thread. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 07:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. Edward Myer (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We have started to work together. May I suggest respectfully that any other matters be set aside for the duration? They can always be returned to if deemed necessary. My hope is that editors will not feel it to be necessary. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. Edward Myer (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My concern is the sock. Edward Myer, do you promise never to sock again? GoodDay (talk) 14:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Please revoke TPA from JEIT BRANDS
Done. Black Kite (talk) 20:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- JEIT BRANDS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Talk page abuse, still spamming after block, please revoke TPA -Lemonaka 18:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Continual ECP-Violating Posts in WP:RUSUKR area by User_talk:Valentinianus_I
Blocked for a week. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- _Valentinianus I (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Valentinianus I is an editor with 80 edits as of the moment I'm writing this, the majority of edits made to WP:RUSUKR topics.
- As background, this editor was notified repeatedly by User:Mellk in August , and clarified . Melik again notified Valentinianus a month later in response to more edits that were not exempt , .
- Valentinianus was blocked for a few weeks in October until User:Rosguill unblocked them after giving benefit of the doubt. I'm only bringing this up because Rosguill, during the unblock reference notified Valentinianus that they would "like you to confirm that you've read and understand Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Russo-Ukrainian War#Remedies by identifying edits that you have made in violation of it, and how you will observe it going forward."
- User:Isabelle Belato notified Valentinianus on 1/18 that they were making inappropriate edits in violation of RUSUKR and was violating WP:BATTLEGROUND as well . Valentinianus replied that asking for a rename and calling for a subsequent rename vote were edit requests .
After that reply to Isabelle Belato (so that there is no question Valentinianus is aware of the latest warning), Valentinianus made five additional edits to Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine. None were remotely along the line of constructive edit requests, the problematic ones being to argue that a source is a "Ukrainian shill site" , a project complaint about the infobox , and WP:ASPERSIONS about the bad faith of the other editors on the talk page .
While in isolation, no individual edit is egregious, this editor has been warned several times about the limits of RUSUKR, and adding WP:BATTLEGROUNDS, WP:AGF , and WP:ASPERSIONS violations in this area to the number of WP:ECP violations, I believe an indefinite topic ban from WP:RUSUKR topics, broadly construed, is appropriate. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 19:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've just blocked them for a week instead. If they're ignoring the ECR restrictions, they'll just ignore a topic ban; that's because the reason they're ignoring the ECR restrictions is either WP:CIR or the fact that they don't care, and either would apply to a topic ban as well. Perhaps they'll get the message after this block, or perhaps they won't at which point we can look at further sanctions (which, let's face it, is likely to be an indef). Black Kite (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that the prior block before this was a sockpuppetry block, which I lifted as I found their explanation of how they came to make their edits plausible. The further editing since the unblock as outlined in the block actioned by Black Kite seems appropriate. signed, Rosguill 22:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are we looking at the same editor, CoffeeCrumbs? Rosguill never unblocked this editor but Beeblebrox did back in December. Liz 01:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's a few comments here that seem muldly disconnected from exactly what happened previous to this, but probably not to the point whee it changes the math on this latest block. Beeblebrox 02:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It appears I was unclear. I was quoting Rosguill's reminder about RUSUKR in the conversation about a possible unblock . My point wasn't about the block itself, but that the editor received an additional warning about their edits in that area. I missed including that specific diff. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 10:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User talk page access, Wiseguy012
I'm just going to close this. If Wiseguy012 returns and continues to rant or issues personal attacks, please return to ANI. Liz 04:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blocked user WiseGuy012 is using their talk page only for the purpose of continuing the rant that they got blocked for at Talk:Tagine and that they continued there as a sock account, Friend0113, which is also now blocked. See . Revoke user talk page access? Largoplazo (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, Largoplazo,
- There is no User:WiseGuy012 account. Did you mean someone else? Liz 01:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wiseguy012, lower g. CMD (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks CMD. They are just ranting to themselves, not attacking anyone. An admin might come by, review this complaint and remove TPA but I don't find it egregious enough to act. Typically blocked editors can act like this right after they discover they've been blocked but then they move on and leave Misplaced Pages or they start creating sockpuppets and that's a bigger problem than a talk page rant. Too soon to tell right now. But it doesn't seem ANI-worthy to me. Liz 01:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- The things some people decide to get mad about.... What they posted on the talk page was a copyright violation in its entirety, so that's gone, and I've warned them for that and let them know further disruption of any kind will cause them to lose talk page access. Beeblebrox 01:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry about the G, and thanks for the guidance about the talk page access. Largoplazo (talk) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Still misuse of talk page for spamming. -Lemonaka 07:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That content was posted hours ago and was similar to what was reported here in the complaint. Liz 08:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Caste-based disruption
HistorianAlferedo has engaged in contentious WP:BATTLEGROUND style editing in the WP:CASTE related sanctioned topic area for quite sometime now. The user being repeatedly warned and clearly aware of these sanctions (evident from the removal of warning notices on their talk page) shows no signs of desisting. The editing pattern follows a faux concern of caste promotion by removing genuine well-sourced and known information all the while engaging in Rajput POV in multiple articles. That the editor isn't new is also evident from the fact that they can handedly cite obscure policies such as WP:RAJ (of course incorrectly and disingenously). Lisiting some particuarly egregious edits:
- , , , : deliberate insertion of incorrect wikilinks and false removals to obscure that the empresses were Rajput princesses
- : clearly falsifying an acronym (note the insertion of a dubious reference which nonetheless has nothing to do with the article subject)
- , , , , : POV caste-based insertions
- , : POV caste-based removals
This only a fraction of the tendentious edits in the user's topic warrior style editing related to Indian history and social groups. Not to mention the insertion of multiple non-RS refs when it suits the preferred POV while claiming to remove them in other articles. Considering the history, ediitng restrictions should follow in the form of a WP:CASTE t-ban or a general one till the user can show that they are not going to be in violation of enwiki policies anymore (all the more necessary considering the IP socking , ). Bringing this to ANI on advice of the editor themselves: . Gotitbro (talk) 11:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Gotitbro, you MUST notify the editor that you have posted this complaint. Please do so. Liz 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Done Gotitbro (talk) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Actually i was only editing and adding new information along with genuine citations. I had no motive for any sort of vandalism or anything else. Based on the knowledge about various topics of Indian history i was just trying to contribute in a positive way. Moreover some of the allegations by user Gotitbro are totally irrelevant, i’m not an indian but interested in the topics related to Indian history. New editors should be supported by the old ones and not demotivated with false allegations. Alright, if the old editors don’t want the new ones to contribute to[REDACTED] even in a good way then i’ll definitely even delete my account from wikipedia. Thank you HistorianAlferedo (talk) 08:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- HistorianAlferedo, I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. Liz 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay @Liz. Please have a look at pages: Ghiyath al-Din Tughluq and Firuz Shah Tughlaq, I added relevant information along with scholarly work sources but user:@Gotitbro just reverted all the changes without even looking at the correct citations. That’s why i thought now i won’t edit and visit[REDACTED] as few users here just try to show off their ranks, there are good wikipedians and administrators too but a few of them are doing this with the new contributors. Thank you HistorianAlferedo (talk) 15:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- HistorianAlferedo, I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. Liz 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
On-wiki hounding, off-wiki soliciting, and severe stalking by User:SerChevalerie
I wanted to let go this and move on, but considering my uncertain future with SerChevalerie, I had to take this to ANI.
To give a little background of the editing behavioural problems with the above mentioned editor, it started around late June 2024 when I made this edit . This was followed by his immediate reverts and significant edits . I had no problem with this, as this article was something wherein a third party editor had requested to expand it in a local Misplaced Pages WhatsApp group we were part of.
Both me and SerChevalerie were part of this WhatsApp group of Wikipedians from Goa. Having known each other online for over two years, and we shared the same native state. The problems arrived when he got back active on Misplaced Pages after a break of roughly 4 years and went on serious stalking my edits, the page I contributed, but mainly the pages that I created. As am In WP:Inclusionist and I love creating articles, but this was something he went overly critical on.
From June to August 2024, most of the edits SerChevalerie made were pertaining to the articles that I significantly worked on or created. During this, I was much subject to WP:HOUNDING on major of the articles I created such as Tsumyoki, you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just WP:BLUDGEON, arguing by citing essays like WP: 10YEARTEST instead of finding a resolution or just WP:DTS. It was until I finally took the decision to take it to WP:3O we reached a consensus after several days of discussion.
Over the course of some 30 articles that I created from June to August 2024, SerChevalerie has made edits which often times were seen as annoying and major stalking behaviour. He also likes to stay at the "top of the order" constantly as you can on articles such as Julião Menezes as per his latest "copyedit". During this period of two months almost entirely of his edits he has made were only pertaining to my articles.
When I had nominated his article Goa Revolution Day for SD, he then tried to solicit and I felt harrassed after he took his arguments to WhatsApp. Even after saying I don't want to discus this off-wiki he forced it upon me by confronting me in a group of 200-250 Wikipedians and having his arguments posted there. This is the same whatsapp group we were part of. And I have the relevant evidence with me.
SerChevalerie also has undisclosed COI with articles such creating and editing his grandfather's article significantly Gerald Pereira and a suspected COI paid editing on article like Subodh Kerkar. I have relevant evidence to support this claim. You can also check the latter's talk page where he claims that he "recreated" entirely on the article after it had some issues when it was created, see
He also seems to want a Misplaced Pages article on himself by using his connections and other Wikipedians to help him feature on the news (or possibly paid news) see here (Redacted). I find this featured article on him rather suspicious as it was published when SerChevalerie barely returned back to editing after 4 years.
When I had to quit Misplaced Pages for over 4 months due to my poor mental health because of him, he too wasn't very active on Misplaced Pages as he noticed I wasn't active anymore. You can check his edit history around the months of October and November this made me realise that SerChevalerie might have WP:OCD relating to my presence on Misplaced Pages itself. When I returned back to editing in early January this year, I made my first edit on the article J. C. Almeida. The next day he tries to repeat the same behaviour of stalking me and "staying on top" of the page. See . Please note that he didn't have any editing history on this page untill I edited it.
I still feel constantly watched by this editor everytime I am on Misplaced Pages. I want to propose to the community for a block on SerChevalerie or having placed WP:Sanctions on articles that I create so that he stops this behaviour. He also knows my real name and I don't want to get WP:Outed or doxxed by him as we both are from Goa, India. I'm afraid he might just get my residence address and does any harm. I just want to get rid of this issue and move on. Rejoy(talk) 11:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't looked at everything, and especially not the off-wiki claims, but I get the impression the behavior issues may not be as one-sided as presented.
"During this, I was much subject to WP:HOUNDING on major of the articles I created such as Tsumyoki, you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just WP:BLUDGEON, arguing by citing essays like WP: 10YEARTEST instead of finding a resolution or just WP:DTS."
- In this talk page you're both volleying policy pages, essays, and vague accusations at each other, but the concerns SerChevalerie raised about this article were not unfounded. It starts from something reasonable, and you both escalate at lightning speed.
- If I look at your interactions, I'm not sure I see the story of one-sided WP:HOUNDING. You both edit similar pages and regularly get into arguments.
- I don't see you trying to disengage with this user either, you've served him three different level 1 warning templates, now you're escalating to ANI with more inflammatory statements. If you're seriously worried about physical harm, please disregard this and rush to Misplaced Pages:Responding to threats of harm, but at least in the diffs you've linked, I don't see much credible threat of physical harm. Mlkj (talk) 14:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- On-wiki evidence here, off-wiki evidence arbcom. Too long to read and wall of text. -Lemonaka 08:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
User:TTYDDoopliss and gender-related edits
Indeffed by Canterbury Tail EvergreenFir (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)I just wanted to add that TTYDDoopliss was found to be the sockpuppet of an editor many of us became familiar with last spring on ANI and the Teahouse. Liz 04:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- TTYDDoopliss (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Summary: Is there a non-male administrator willing to provide some guidance to this editor, particularly in edits related to gender?
The user in question is relatively new. (Yes, an early edit stated she had a previous account, but she used it for roughly one day in December 2024 before losing her password, and she had no warnings at all on the account, so abuse of multiple accounts does not apply here.
With her new account, she quickly received a message alerting her that gender is a contentious topic, so she is CTOPS/aware of gender issues. After which, she has made edits including:
- This sequence of edits to List of media notable for being in development hell:
- Edit summary: men don’t be utterly deprived and ruin women’s lives by being a sex pest challenge (don’t revert if you’re a man, you’re disgusting and I want nothing to do with you guys)
- Edit summary: Undid revision 1270571008 by C.Fred (talk) how many more women are going to be hurt by continuing to let men like this in the game industry
- To Dawn M. Bennett, removing an image with the edit summary she has cleavage, which means men will want to screw her if they see the image
- To her own user talk, removing a thread that included warnings with the edit summary please leave me alone, im trying to lessen my suffering as a woman in a male-dominated world
I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I concede her point that, generally speaking, men in the world have done and continue to do pretty crappy things to women. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs, and IMO, some of her edits are even going counter to the viewpoint she holds. I also know that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social platform, and I worry that her behaviour, unchecked, will result in her crossing a line that gets her blocked, where an admin, regardless of gender, has to stop the disruption.
I'd like somebody to reach out to her to give her some advice before it gets to that point, and—while I generally think that any editor can do any job on Misplaced Pages regardless of gender—I think this a situation where a non-male or cisfemale administrator should be the one to make the contact. —C.Fred (talk) 15:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest that if there's any founded concerns a trans woman would get bitten in this hypothetical interaction then we should probably just WP:NOTHERE right now. However then I went and looked at the diffs in question and the discussion that was on the user's talk page and I have to ask: has anyone considered this might all be a troll? Simonm223 (talk) 15:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- perhaps my useful non-gender related edits might tip you off to the fact that im not a troll? here’s something non-gender related articles i fixed up: Monster-taming game, Cookie Run: Kingdom, Acer Aspire One Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this is a straightforward WP:RGW or WP:NOTTHERAPY block. Misplaced Pages quite a number of women editors and they seem to be fine and don't seem to experience overt persecution. I just don't see how this user can reasonably be expected to collaborate with others, a core requirement of Misplaced Pages editing, if they're just going to accuse everyone else of being misogynists. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them removing mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, Poe's law in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TTYDDoopliss Hrm. So is the inference that you willingly and knowingly made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —C.Fred (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Honestly I don't think you're in any sort of distress at all. As I think, rather, that you are trolling Misplaced Pages and WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 18:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TTYDDoopliss Hrm. So is the inference that you willingly and knowingly made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —C.Fred (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, Poe's law in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them removing mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
benefit of the doubt
– Pardon me, but what doubt could there possibly be? EEng 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Surprised they weren't blocked after calling the vast majority of en.wiki contributors "nerdy men". EF 16:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- that’s… not an insult? just an observation Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL Simonm223 (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. EF 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. EF 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I go to the talk pages of articles, no one ever responds. I just operate over WP:BRD, it’s easier and takes less time. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. EF 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. EF 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL Simonm223 (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- that’s… not an insult? just an observation Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- i mean you requested “guidance”, everyone else is suggesting indef which is not what i had in mind when you left this here. id gladly take a gensex topic ban over never being able to edit ever again. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm suspecting trolling, here. GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for WP:CIVIL violations. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information about the exploitation caused by the games industry - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make women working in the games industry literally less visible, seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body
Be that as it may, leave that attitude at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- clearly you’ve never had a phobia, or OCD. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. Tarlby 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've already been told by Liz, so it's up to you now. Either acknowledge and take on the board the advice you have been given, or yes, you will likely be blocked. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Acknowledge that your past actions were wrong and disruptive, you promise to never do them again, and from here on contribute constructively. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. Tarlby 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- clearly you’ve never had a phobia, or OCD. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information about the exploitation caused by the games industry - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make women working in the games industry literally less visible, seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for WP:CIVIL violations. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- TTYDDoopliss, I'll cut to the chase rather than participating in a debate over what your motivation is for some of your editing. I'm a female administrator and you've been brought to ANI. While this is sometimes done for frivolous reasons, for the most part, unless vandalism is occurring, complaints are brought here to resolve in order that harsher sanctions won't be necessary. It's an attempt to address problems before a block becomes necessary. There is a view that your glib messages asserting a POV regarding sexism or editors on this project are inappropriate and borderline unacceptable. Can you cease with the personal commentary here? Because if you can not, there will not be a third chance, my Misplaced Pages experience tells me that a block from editing of some duration will be coming your way. So, the choice is up to you at this point. Act professionally and not like Misplaced Pages is some kind of discussion forum, or have your editing privileges removed.
- And to reinforce this in case it needs to be emphasized, this is not about sexism or gender really, it's about NPOV and disruptive editing. You'd be getting a similar message if you were making side comments about politics, ethnicity, race or any other subjects that cross over into contentious subject areas. These are designated areas where sloppy editing and off-the-cuff comments are sanctioned if the editor can't control her/himself. From a nerdy female editor, Liz 18:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- is there any other way I can make Misplaced Pages a better place for women? How about a policy like WP:CHILDPROTECT but for women? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this edit. A perfectly normal picture of a woman was removed with a weird and offensively sexualised edit summary. I can't begin to stress how perfectly normal that picture is. There are two possibilities here. One is that this is anti-feminist trolling under a false flag but the other is that TTYDDoopliss is exactly what she claims to be and was genuinely triggered by a perfectly ordinary picture of a woman at an awards ceremony. If the later then she is clearly in no state to be able to edit Misplaced Pages at this time. Pictures like that turn up all over Misplaced Pages. If we have stronger evidence of deliberate trolling elsewhere then obviously that's an indef (of both the old and new accounts) but if that edit was made in good faith then I think a temporary block would be best for all concerned. It would give TTYDDoopliss an opportunity to come back later if she is well enough, and if she wants to, of course. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's this which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- What we would expect is to find WP:MEDRS compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in WP:OR in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, exacerbating this, you were already engaged here with people raising concerns about your widespread disruptive editing, which had been explained to you, before you made this edit. Which makes it quite deliberated disruption. Simonm223 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- What we would expect is to find WP:MEDRS compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in WP:OR in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK. Now I'm looking at this edit and that does seem a lot more like trolling. The edit summary sounds like an anti-feminist parody of a feminist and the actual edit is to remove coverage of an alleged sex offender. Given that sexual misconduct is a serious issue in the video games industry it seems implausible that even the most misguided feminist would try to cover it up. I know that mental illness can express itself in many ways but... I just don't buy it. DanielRigal (talk) 19:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I removed it because it made me upset.
What? Have you read WP:NPOV and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just WP:TROLLING, a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- fine ill shut up now Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just WP:TROLLING, a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit also looks like parody. Simonm223 (talk) 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the male protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one said or implied any such thing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don't exist to fulfill men's needs. That is very true. However desire for a partner can certainly be part of a character's motivation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one said or implied any such thing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit actually takes a WP:MEDRS cited statement and rewrites it to say something that the RS did not say not once but twice. In addition, there is the claim that erasing sexual orientation as a possible subject of obsessive and compulsive ideation is somehow reducing heteronormative bias. Which is somewhat contrary to what I would expect from a sincere feminist editor. Simonm223 (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit is somewhat better than average. At least the source says, "Insofar as they affect women, bromances, when taken in conjunction with monogamous heterosexual relationships, decrease the burden on women to provide all the care work for their partners."
- However "all the care work" is paraphrased by Doopliss to "The increasing tolerance of bromances relives pressure on women to be emotionally intimate with men," which is... not... the same thing. But at least I can look at the source, look at the statement and draw a line between them, however tenuous. Simonm223 (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, this too supports my "troll" hypothesis since the very next paragraph of the Chen source begins "Bromances reinforce gender hierarchy, bolster marriage as the goveming, archetypal intimate relationship, and normalize homophobia." So we have an article crtical of bromance being used to praise it for getting men out of womens' hair. Simonm223 (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the male protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's this which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's clear some form of block is necessary now. Tarlby 19:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because you have disrupted multiple topics. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And that's it. That's the proof that we are being played. An inexperienced user would not be advocating for a topic ban. An inexperienced user would not even know what a topic ban was. This is probably a Gamergate dead-ender yanking our chains. DanielRigal (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd suggest a checkuser but what's the point? They are going to get blocked anyway. DanielRigal (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what a topic ban is because I’ve lurked on pages like AN/I before. I’ve been browsing back-end Misplaced Pages pages for years. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make you guys believe me? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That ship has sailed. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make you guys believe me? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and blocked them. It's clear we're being trolled. They're not only offensively characterising men, they're offensively characterising women and people with mental illnesses. Thay also can't keep their own lies and beliefs straight. We're done here. Canterbury Tail talk 20:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Indefinite block
For disruptive editing and failure to get the point. I propose that TTYDDoopliss be indefintely blocked. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support Per nom. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. Even if they are what they claim to be there is nothing for them here. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. In addition, WP:NOTTHERAPY and WP:BATTLEGROUND. - The literary leader of the age ✉ 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support For the reasons and multitudinous diffs cited above I believe this whole dog and pony show is a troll. WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per above. I don't mean to be rude, but Wikipedians are a diverse bunch, and some of us are bound to be male. If you can't work collaboratively, you can't work at all. EF 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support because as I said before, whether this user has legitimate intentions behind these edits or is just WP:TROLLING, their disruptive editing and refusal to acknowledge their actions shows me that they are WP:NOTHERE. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nom Tarlby 19:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support Per Nom. The way she characterizes certain mental illnesses is untrue and frankly beyond offensive. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - I believe we're being trolled. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nomination - I had initial sympathy but it's just trolling. qcne (talk) 20:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Good block by CT. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support: TTYDDoopliss asked, several times over, what she could do to avoid a general block. Over and over again, she refused to respond in the one way that would have helped her: by saying that she'd clean up her act and stop dumping her own issues onto this site. Even if we weren't being trolled, any time an IDHT person gets cbanned, an angel gets its wings. Ravenswing 21:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Toa_Nidhiki05: WP:OWN and WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour.
Toa Nidhiki05 has been guarding the hell out of the Republican Party (United States). They instantly revert any change against the status quo that they don't like, citing a need for consensus, then don't actually engage with discussions around those edits except to call for moratoriums on even talking about them while spewing bad faith assumptions, or trying to wikilawyer away disagreements. I'm not a long term editor at Republican Party (United States) and, frankly, don't want to be, but in the limited number of days I've been editing on this it's clearly an issue.
(The main thing I'm trying to draw attention to in those diffs is the declaration that an edit "will not be made'. Please see below before taking claims of local consensus at face value)
Most recently he decided to just blanket slander multiple editors who disagree with him while again calling for a moratorium on changes he doesn't like. diff
More specifically this line:
Rather than persuade editors, it seems editors are attempting to force these changes through.
(right below an entire thread that was made before a controversial change specifically to discuss said change)
I feel this last one is the most important, because it highlights a pattern of what's been going on here: Toa telling editors a local consensus has been reached, and that they're free to read back, and then citing their own requests obliquely as if they're others ("or called for a moratorium on changes
") and, most importantly, creating an in-group of who is allowed to weigh in on article content (Only one active discussion-engaged user
). Other editors, like @Cortador, have been calling them out for this as well.
Note, actually doing what Toa asks and looking back through old talk page discussions on this largely results in finding Toa telling people the same thing then, too.
There's a content dispute under-riding most of this, which frankly is probably best adjudicated at this point by literally anyone other than Toa or myself. The meat of this ANI is wholly independent of the content dispute, except insofar as Toa's apparently not been engaging in the most NPOV way with editors when it comes to sourcing requirements. I want to point out that despite Toa's reality-bending insistence I've been pretty open to admitting a different proposal for a change from others was better than my own idea. In an attempt to placate his revert-happy self on what I was sure would be controversial (removing 'conservative' from the dominant ideology of the party) I started by making a discussion thread highlighting that the sources that were being used didn't make that claim, including direct quotes from the papers. Except for admonishing editors for wanting change, he's mostly elected to just straight up ignore any substantive discussion over the exact thing he's reverting. This is clearly OWN and POV editing, and it looks like previous attempts to caution him for edit warring were met with 'Are you fucking kidding me.'. I'd honestly like to bow out of editing that page entirely for a while for so many reasons, but I don't want to leave it in a state where one editor has declared an article theirs.
Addendum: this TBAN for the same behaviour is being discussed, but the link is buried in the discussion.Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
The page-in-question should be stable & at status quo. Best to work out content disputes on the page-in-questions' talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 15:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think that the content dispute should be decided here. To be clear, 99% of the content dispute is moving one sentence earlier in the article and removing a source that failed verification. We're not talking about seeing how fast we can invoke Godwin's Law in a page about the GOP (though admittedly some editors are). I genuinely don't think the content in question actually substantial at all, which is why one editor increasingly spiralling into mudslinging over it while refusing to discuss changes beyond categorical rejection or highly mobile goalposts for inclusion is a problem. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am out of town, and don't have time to reply fully to all of this. But the general dispute ongoing at the page is twofold: Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right", and they want "conservatism" to be removed as a majority faction. There doesn't appear to be support for either of these things (an ongoing RfC on the "far-right" designation is trending a pretty strong consensus in opposition, and removing conservatism appears to be equally unlikely to reach consensus). This is a content dispute involving, at this point, probably at least a dozen editors, and should be resolved on the page.
- What Warrenmck does not seem to understand is that changing political positions on pages is something that comes up all the time. None of the arguments presented have been new, and a local consensus has been developed with the collaboration of many editors. This took a lot of hard work and compromise to reach.
- For editors like myself - who worked on the present consensus versions - this is not a fresh, new discussion. It's more or less an endless string of discussions that have been ongoing for years. This is why several other editors - not just myself (and I'm not even the one who came up with the idea - that was Czello. I was actually the third to support one) have supported a moratorium on said discussions. There is nothing wrong with discussing a moratorium on repetitive topics that repeatedly emerge on talk pages.
- I will also note that, I have not, in fact, blindly opposed any changes to the article. I did not object when “right-wing populism” was added as a majority faction; I didn’t even participate in the discussion, iirc, because it was such an obvious changed. And in this discussion I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes. It goes without saying that the article is not mine, I have never claimed it is mine, and I have no interest in subverting or going against whatever consensus is reached through talk page discussions, rather than brute force. Toa Nidhiki05 15:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, what I was calling for was including "far right" as a minor faction, per the an absolute ocean of reliable sources. Even you explicitly stated in the RfC it's a minor ideology. You've accused me of wanting to make the page about the republicans being far right multiple times now, and the only time you've responded to me saying that 's not what I'm doing here was to say that having it on the page at all slanders the party as that
Except the RfC isn’t about labelling the party far right, it’s about naming it as a minor ideology, which you here acknowledge?
- and you responded
Which is labeling the party as it.
- Which isn't how NPOV editing works.
- Beyond that I simply don't believe that Toa is accurately representing the discussions that are there now or the historical discussions around local consensus.
I will also note that, I have not, in fact, opposed any changes. In fact, I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes
- Please, any admin reading this exact quoted line, immediately go look at Toa's engagement on this exact point here. Toa added a source paper, I read the source paper, removed it because it simply didn't make the claim it was being used to make, and instantly started a discussion thread asking for sources and explicitly explaining my removal. I did not make the change I knew would be controversial, that was a different editor later. I also quoted the specific line in the paper which discussed why it wasn't an approprioate source for the claim it was being used for in my removal (diff) Which Toa almost completely ignored. This is simply not an accurate recounting of events.
- This is why I think this is an ANI issue. Toa routinely misrepresents or overstates consensus and historical discussions, while running off editors who don't agree, then claiming that only the long term editors should have a meaningful say. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please find a time where I said you “want to make the page about the Republicans being far right”. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that. I have said you clearly have strong views about the subject, though.
- What you are referencing was a typo. Notice that it’s not even a complete sentence? Toa Nidhiki05 16:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Literally in this ANI:
Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right"
- That is not the same thing as defining far-right as a minor ideology of the party. Also from the talk page:
Its exclusion is not odd, as academic sources do not widely or generally or even often refer to the party as far-right, which is typically associated with literal fascism or Nazism. Believe it or not, this has been discussed dozens of times - including several in the last few months - and editors have reached a consensus that academic sources broadly refer to the party as center-right or right-wing.
Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- You are making a distinction without a difference. Toa Nidhiki05 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Involved: These are content disputes and should be dealt with at that level. Springee (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Toa_Nidhiki05 appears to have been exceedingly cordial and professional in the differences you provided above. I see no wrongdoing on their part. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I cannot disagree, except I think that speaking authoritatively about how a change will not be done regardless of sources provided simply breaks WP:OWN:
An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.
- The other problem is that the consensus they're pointing to doesn't seem to substantially exist. There's an abundance of "go see the old discussions" which themselves say "go see the old discussions" and so on. It's artificial, and it's being used to prevent edits that users don't like, as opposed to edits they can substantively object to. Seriously, just look at his presentation of these previous discussions here and go back in the archives. While I'm sure there were discussions at some (possibly many) points, there's a hell of a lot of reliable sources being objected to there on a house of cards.
- Additionally, I think that's masking the fact that they're simply refusing to engage editors while reverting the article to the status quo. They're basically holding the article hostage by pointing people to an ongoing discussion they're not engaging in (diff, or on the talk pages with "see previous discussion" as a threadkiller). So the choice editors are left with is to edit war over an inclusion, or give up. The issue isn't that there's a content dispute here, it's that someone has WP:WIKILAWYERed their way into objecting to a specific edit on an ongoing basis, always maintaining a layer of "content dispute". As Cortador said,
"Do you have a content-based case to make here or do you just declare editor's contributions to be "low quality" if you disagree with them?"
Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place after I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer WP:CPUSH problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an WP:OWN mentality. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Springee appears to be actively involved in this, and there's comments on their guarding against "far right" in the article going back at least two years of the same argumentation pattern and misrepresenting sourcing requirements and consensus. diff diff diff and diff. I agree this seems more like a CPUSH. For example, this was directed at Springee from the last diff:
The same failed arguments have been made in several similar discussions of late
- Basically, the patten we're seeing at Republican Party (United States) appears to be ongoing with several of the key users objecting to changes on identical grounds year after year without ever really explaining why these aren't open for discussion in light of sourcing standards. @The Four Deuces appears to be engaging in an identical pattern in many of the same articles. TFD, Toa, and Springee show up all over[REDACTED] making the same tortured arguments around academic sourcing and consensus when someone mentions "far-right" in an article. Every single time it's a complete slamming of the door of the possibility that RS could ever be met for the inclusion of information they deem controversial. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 13:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. Springee (talk) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, being vague wasn't my intention. I think you're engaging in the same CPUSH behaviour as Toa, just maintaining civility much better. It's possible to find years worth of identical argumentation from you on this across many articles, always with the same anything-other-than-excluding-content-is-unacceptable, and above you're continuing the relatively nonsensical arguments from Toa with Simonm223 in asking for unique sourcing standards for a claim you really don't like. You pick this fight very consistently on Misplaced Pages, usually with the same arguments.
- If I'm way out of line here I'm fine accepting a boomerang, but I see several editors going way off the deep end in trying to prevent a very specific change to articles on Misplaced Pages that seems to be coming from a place of stonewalling diff diff Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hope my arguments have been consistent because I try to pay strict adherence to content policy and guidelines. TFD (talk) 17:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. Springee (talk) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place after I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer WP:CPUSH problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an WP:OWN mentality. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Accusing other editors of making "low quality" edits instead of making an argument isn't helpful or professional, and neither is demanding a unique standard for edits one is opposed to. Cortador (talk) 17:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article. This discussion should be closed. Nemov (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Respectfully WP:CPUSH and WP:SEALION are behavioural problems. Simonm223 (talk) 20:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a comment, Toa’s response to multiple users adding failed verification tag was to go tag all the sources making a political claim they don’t like as failing verification en masse (diff).
- while these all on their own may be legitimate tags (though other editors have been removing some tags as apparently they did pass verification) I think taking this in the context of them actually refusing to discuss the failed verification tag that lead to this spree at all makes this pretty WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour to me. If Toa wants to discuss bad edits, that’s good and fine. But they can’t have a policy of using bad edits from other people to deflect from any discussion around edits they themselves feel are valid. Apparently he doesn't have enough time to fully engage with this ANI or any of the discussions around his own edits, but does have enough time to read dozens of articles and point by point articulate his issue with each over at the talk page for Republican Party (United States). Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: Toa was TBANed for this exact behaviour in 2022. The reason given at the time was
Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it.
- This is the same pattern of behaviour he's accused of here, for the same thing, and that resulted in an indefinite TBAN. Springee and TFD are again involved there, as well. This should make it pretty clear that, civility aside, this is a problem. A long, ongoing one. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to WP:AE more than WP:AN/I. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Honestly I agree having seen more of this being a systematic issue since making this ANI. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps the issue is that good faith editor don't agree. A failure to get consensus to add a controversial claim is hardly proof of CPUSH. Additionally as the number of accused editors goes up it looks more like a true content dispute vs a single editor problem. I will also note that Toa has done quite a bit to review some of the references used to support the disputed changes and makes a good case that they don't support the claims within the edits being pushed into the article. Springee (talk) 14:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. Simonm223 (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy.
- And very clearly retaliatory. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings. Per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". If the source does not back up the cited claim, it shouldn't be used. This is... pretty ordinary stuff, actually.
- You'll notice I did not remove the broader claims, or change the in-article text. All I have done is trim sources that do not back up the claim given, which is something Misplaced Pages citations are required to do. If you reaction to a source review that results in no changes to prose is to file a report rather than discuss, challenge, or revert, you might have a hard time being successful with that. Toa Nidhiki05 15:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings
- Would you please provide the diff where you substantively responded to a thread made directly about a source you added not passing verification, which you were pinged in and did actually participate without addressing the substance of? Because that would go a long way towards convincing me this isn't a smokescreen of policy to mask more sealioning in a thin veneer of civility and plausible deniability. How about addressing any of the comments providing the exact types of sources you were asked for? When I did provide a reason and eventually reverted your addition, you just reverted with "nah it didn't fail verification" ignoring both the edit summary prior and the entire talk page discussion about the entire situation. As I said there, neither I nor any other editor personally needs to run improvements on the article through you, personally. If you object without engaging or explaining, it's perfectly reasonable for editors to simply ignore your perspectives. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. Toa Nidhiki05 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No. The content dispute isn't the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I don't agree with Springee about some of their interpretations of appropriate content but I don't think their comportment is problematic except in as far as it gives cover to yours. Rather it's two things: how you insist sources should be interpreted and how you engage with other editors that has become disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 15:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The diff I asked for had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with you attempting to paint other editors as sidestepping a process you yourself have refused to engage in as a matter of policy, apparently going back far enough for you to have already received an indef TBAN for the exact same behaviour. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. Toa Nidhiki05 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a perfect example, in this diff they claim that the New York Times piece does not support referring to the Republican party as right-wing populist.
This is because it says that the party isn't just a touch more populist. It then compares the Republican party under Trump to the racist populist George Wallace and the fascist propagandist Father Coughlin. This, to me, is more than sufficient to support "right-wing populism" but, because the article uses simile, Toa Nidhiki05 calls it a "Gish Gallop".Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok here's the correct quote now:
The overarching pattern is clear. In election after election, Democrats underperformed among traditional Democratic constituencies during the Trump era. Sometimes, it was merely a failure to capitalize on his unpopularity. Other times, it was a staggering decline in support. Together, it has shattered Democratic dreams of building a new majority with the rise of a new generation of young and nonwhite voters.
This overarching pattern requires an overarching explanation: Mr. Trump’s populist conservatism corroded the foundations of the Democratic Party’s appeal. It tapped into many of the issues and themes that once made these voters Democrats.
While the damage was mostly concealed by Mr. Trump’s unpopularity, the backlash to his norm-shattering presidency drew the Democratic Party even further from its traditional roots. The extent of that damage is now clear. - Now this article does compare the Democratic party as a whole to Trump on a purely linguistic level. However context matters here. The first line of the article is
It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it.
The NYT has as table-stakes that the Republicans were transformed by Trump. In this context I think it's a reasonable argument that "Trump" here is a stand-in for the party of Trump. Simonm223 (talk) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Also, the New York Times introduces the article by saying, "Nate Cohn, The Times’s chief political analyst, makes sense of the latest political data." Editorial and opinion commentary says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Therefore this is not an acceptable source.
- It disruptive that so many unreliable sources have been presented in the discussion pages. It wastes edtiors' time as they discuss sources that cannot be used.
- My suggestion is that going forward, unreliable sources that are presented should be struck out and editors who persist in presenting them should face sanctions. That will allow editors to focus on what reliable sources say. TFD (talk) 16:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what WP:RSEDITORIAL says
When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.
Simonm223 (talk) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- In this case the author is a journalist with a BA in politics IOW he has the same background one would expect for the writer of an analysis in a newspaper. Furthermore, when policy says that this type of source is "rarely reliable," the onus is on the person presenting it to explain why it should be deemed reliable. TFD (talk) 17:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what WP:RSEDITORIAL says
- Ok here's the correct quote now:
- Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. Simonm223 (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to WP:AE more than WP:AN/I. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page. Maybe it would be best if editors heavily involved there, would avoid each other & allow newcomers room to give their input. Might lower the heat. GoodDay (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page.
- It isn't, for what it's worth. It's about a consistent pattern of behaviours going back years that came out, mostly, in the thread after the RfC, though partially there as well. Beyond that, good call. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Is this the type of report that would be better addressed at WP:AE? ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Frankly, probably? I misjudged how long this had been going on and the scale of it. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be better suited to AE except that it's here now and AE tends not to like having an issue open at two venues. Simonm223 (talk) 17:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't see why you consider this a behavioral issue rather than a content dispute. I follow a lot of articles that attract editors with fringe views: fascism is left-wing, cultural marxism and Jewish bolshevism are not just conspiracy theories, aspartame is dangerous, climate science is unsettled, etc. Some editors explain why these views are wrong, while others point to previous discussions.
- If anyone should be banned, it isn't editors who insist that articles reflect reliable sources, but editors who try to inject fringe theories unsupported by reliable sources.
- On your user page, you mention that you have written peer-reviewed articles in geophysics and vulcanology. Certainly you would not rely on an analysis by a journalist as reliable in those papers. For example, you would not use it for explaining why a particular volcano erupted. TFD (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. Cortador (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- See Some types of sources: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources."
- Can you explain why in determining how to desribe a political group you prefer an article by a journalist rather than a political scientist writing in a peer-reviewed publication? Do you think it is prudent to substitute a consensus academic opinion with that of a journalist?
- If I want to know how to categorize a poltical group or know why volcanoes erupt, my go to source isnt't a newspaper. Instead, I would look for an article by an expert. TFD (talk) 15:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. Cortador (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
If I am following this properly, via the thread on the linked talk page:
- The OP made a thread on Talk:Republican Party (United States) saying that we should change the article to say that it was "anti-intellectual" and "far-right".
- Toa_Nidhiki05 said that this was a bad idea, and some stuff about previous consensus against doing this.
- ???
- AN/I thread
Is there anything I'm missing here? jp×g🗯️ 21:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sealioning, a previous TBAN for identical behaviour, and multiple editors weighing in saying this is a CPUSH issue? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've said I'm guilty of sealioning three times in this thread, but as far as I can tell you haven't actually defined what you think that means, or what I've done. It's a pretty specific set of behavior - can you explain what I've done that qualifies as sealioning?
- But to answer JPxG: yeah, that's essentially it. Like I said above, it doesn't look like either of Warrenmck's proposed changes will make it into the article, and I'm surprised this content dispute hasn't been closed yet. Toa Nidhiki05 23:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You have refused to engage editors in the exact process you demand they engage in, you put forward sourcing standards which, when met, you completely dodge. On one hand you ask editors to discuss and respect consensus, on the other you wield prior consensus as a cudgel to prevent a change you don’t like and have made it abundantly clear that the sourcing standards you demand are not actually sourcing standards you’ll accept, rather, to quote an admin in your last TBAN:
There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any basis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines
. You’re engaging in vindictive editing patterns, which evidence has also been provided for. You have refused to articulate the actual substance of prior consensus other than pointing at it and saying “consensus, consensus, consensus” and when the exact arguments that lead to said consensus (apparently, you’ve still never linked a prior discussion) are being addressed and met you ignore the editor, as multiple people here have pointed out.
- You have refused to engage editors in the exact process you demand they engage in, you put forward sourcing standards which, when met, you completely dodge. On one hand you ask editors to discuss and respect consensus, on the other you wield prior consensus as a cudgel to prevent a change you don’t like and have made it abundantly clear that the sourcing standards you demand are not actually sourcing standards you’ll accept, rather, to quote an admin in your last TBAN:
- You’ve been doing this for years and were TBANed for it in 2022. Your attempt at denying it here rings hollow when multiple editors have been very explicit and provided diffs for sealioning behaviour. Im frankly a bit surprised at @JPxG’s rapid read of the situation considering the evidence of a TBAN for the exact behaviour raised here and multiple editors chiming in saying they see a WP:CPUSH. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 06:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm going to repeat this link which is referred to above but kind of hidden, here is the discussion that lead to the 2022 topic ban: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive312#Toa Nidhiki05, just in case anyone wants to review it. Liz 06:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It’s also worth pointing out that their reply to @JPxG engages in some of the direct behaviour they’re being called out for here: seemingly reasonably asking for a discussion while ignoring that what they’re asking for was already provided without them participating
You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings
- In a vacuum, this looks like a completely reasonable editor engaged in a very civil discussion around edits. In practice this was already done before this comment, and Toa refused to engage in the discussion except one about the retaliatory edits, i.e. only edits they personally felt failed verification were up for discussion, not those they felt didn’t. Here they tell me I’m free to undo the source review, but apparently only on the sources they tagged as unreliable because the ones I tagged, evidenced, and started a discussion thread about were unilaterally removed, twice, with a simple claim that it didn’t fail verification diff diff with no attempt at engaging in the discussion thread about this exact thing except to tell me I’m “very passionate about this” and I shouuld stop editing diff diff.
- A content dispute isn’t possible to properly adjudicate if one party is refusing to engage, then pointing to prior consensus. Toa has created a situation where they and their ephemeral prior consensus have right of review on an article. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I expected, @Warrenmck: - your claims are simply baseless. Consider this my final response to them.
- First off, let's talk about my topic ban. No, I did not get topic banned for sealioning. It was for disruptive behavior at the Stacey Abrams page - frankly, it was embarrassing, and the sanction was warranted. The fact you're having to resort to a years-old incident instead of right now, though, is pretty telling in terms of the merit of this report.
- Your claims of sealioning ring hollow because you still cannot define what POV I am pushing - I'm still not even convinced you know what sealioning is. Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors. See the problem here? I've behaved civilly, while your general response to... any sort of disagreement is make frivolous claims against me. If anyone's behavior should be on watch here, it is yours, because it's been utterly ridiculous.
- You seem extremely caught up on what I told you during your initial proposal here - how I told you your edit would not be accepted, and that while this is a topic you're clearly passionate about, it might be best for you to step away from it if you're unable to distance your personal feelings. I think everything I said is correct. Your proposal was bad. It didn't add any new information to the table, it isn't backed up by high-quality academic sources, and effectively all it's done is waste time. Like I said: your proposal may have been made in good faith, but it is not going to be accepted. And I was right! The RfC you started (after an initial discussion where nobody agreed with you, and an earlier attempt you made at an RfC that was malformed) has opposes ahead of supports by over a 2:1 margin. Your proposal to remove conservatism has been received as equally poorly.
- Similarly, your response to my source review wasn't to contest changes on the talk page or revert them - but instead, to accuse me here of "retaliation"; as far as I can tell, the only one you directly commented on at the talk page is to agree with me.
- Instead of looking inward and reconsidering your contributions, you instead started a frivolous, retaliatory AN/I board discussion that pretty much every uninvolved editor has reacted with bewilderment over.
- I am going to be blunt here: you are wasting my time, you are wasting your time, and you're wasting everyone's time here. Frankly, I think you should strongly consider limiting or ending your involvement in AP2 if your response to a basic content dispute and not getting your way is to post frivolous reports to AN/I. Toa Nidhiki05 13:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- As per link Liz provided above, your topic ban wasn't for disruptive behaviour on the Stacey Abrams page. That page isn't mentioned in the AIN discussion closure comments. The Republican Party article is, and the outcome was a a ban from that page and a topic ban, with the reasons cited being, among others, retaliatory posting, evidence of personal attacks, bludgeoning, and edit-warring. Cortador (talk) 14:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- TN, you have been very selective in what you see at article talk. In one instance you say, regarding the Republican Party's center-right designation, that there should be a moratorium on such discussions because "nothing new" has been presented. That is despite the fact that there are several new peer reviewed sources that contradict center-right and support far-right that have been presented and ignored by you. But the one time I agreed with you regarding a low-quality source you were very fast to point out my agreement in discussion. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that is leading to the complaints of sealioning. Regarding your POV it is that you want to retain the status quo at the page. You don't want to see revision, especially, to any high-level indicators of overall ideology such as infoboxes. That's fine we all have POVs. Mine is that the page is non-neutral calling the Republicans a center-right party. The problem comes when you ignore all evidence that contradicts your POV over the objection of multiple other editors and insist that no sources have been provided despite an abundance of high-quality sources being provided. Simonm223 (talk) 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- A professional paid editor frankly should have a much more complete understanding of WP:RS, WP:CONSENSUS, and WP:POV. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- TN, you have been very selective in what you see at article talk. In one instance you say, regarding the Republican Party's center-right designation, that there should be a moratorium on such discussions because "nothing new" has been presented. That is despite the fact that there are several new peer reviewed sources that contradict center-right and support far-right that have been presented and ignored by you. But the one time I agreed with you regarding a low-quality source you were very fast to point out my agreement in discussion. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that is leading to the complaints of sealioning. Regarding your POV it is that you want to retain the status quo at the page. You don't want to see revision, especially, to any high-level indicators of overall ideology such as infoboxes. That's fine we all have POVs. Mine is that the page is non-neutral calling the Republicans a center-right party. The problem comes when you ignore all evidence that contradicts your POV over the objection of multiple other editors and insist that no sources have been provided despite an abundance of high-quality sources being provided. Simonm223 (talk) 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nothing you said there replies to the post you responded to. This feels like a gish gallop. One with a reasonable number of falsehoods, at that. For example:
Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors.
- Why not, for the folks at ANI reading along, explain the context in which I said I was going to unilaterally add far-right in? Hmm? Here's a diff.
- 1. You failed to actually demonstrate there was a consensus, as one didn't exist in the place you directed me to.
- 2. Neither you nor Springee, who you've been tag-teaming with on this exact edit for years, once articulated why it "wasn't going to be included" other than to state tautologically that it was not
- 3. In the absence of any substantive objection, WP:RS material should be added in.
- WP:ONUS doesn't assume a stonewalled refusal to engage, and if the only substance to the objection I'm getting is a vague statement about an unreferenced consensus and WP:IDONTLIKEIT then yeah, I'm going to edit it in. I'm very used to editing in contentious article spaces and this isn't the first time I've seen this approach used to keep out changes. You can point to your civility until the cows come home but if it's masking POV editing that needs to be addressed. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- As per link Liz provided above, your topic ban wasn't for disruptive behaviour on the Stacey Abrams page. That page isn't mentioned in the AIN discussion closure comments. The Republican Party article is, and the outcome was a a ban from that page and a topic ban, with the reasons cited being, among others, retaliatory posting, evidence of personal attacks, bludgeoning, and edit-warring. Cortador (talk) 14:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you're going to accuse @Springee: of something, you could at least do them the decency of tagging them. That being said - the idea I've been tag-teaming with them for years on this is silly, because the page didn't have a political position listed until late last year (something you'd know if you... read the talk page archives, like you claim you have), so I'm not exactly sure what you think has been going on here.
- Moreover: there is, in fact, a consensus. I'm fairly confident I've pointed it out to you, but it was developed in the talk page in archives 32-34; there's not a single thread to pinpoint because it took place over numerous threads. Given what you've said above, however, I don't think you actually did ever read those discussions. The fact you're simply unable to accept that a local consensus exists (or, evidently, the fact that editors do not agree with your proposed changes by a 2:1 margin) is on you.
- With that, I'm done. If you want to waste your time litigating a content dispute at AN/I, go ahead. I'm no longer engaging with this. Toa Nidhiki05 15:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Others should note that this is the exact same pattern of behaviour that Warrenmck and I both highlighted previously: selectively responding to arguments that they can refute while ignoring those they cannot, pointing to a vaguely defined local consensus without pointing to a specific decision, and a fair bit of diversion with the whole complaint of not tagging @Springee, who is already quite thoroughly engaged in this thread. Simonm223 (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you presenting arguments that can be refuted? TFD (talk) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think I am, being honest, especially since you and I agree on source quality and I've taken great care to base my arguments on a large number of reliable peer reviewed academic sources rather than news media. But there are multiple editors involved in this discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 15:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm generally following this discussion. I think it would be helpful if we all try to assume good faith. It's clear there is a disagreement here. If editors feel they have successfully made a case against the status quo and feel the objectors are wrong I would suggest starting a RfC to confirm the answer. That's the best process for establishing that a consensus exists. I would also note that, right or wrong, rather than pushing edits into the article when consensus etc isn't clear, those wanting change should start a RfC so we can at least finish with a declared consensus on the question. We all ready have a "far-right" RfC open so half of this fight should be addressed when that one closes. Springee (talk) 15:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you presenting arguments that can be refuted? TFD (talk) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Others should note that this is the exact same pattern of behaviour that Warrenmck and I both highlighted previously: selectively responding to arguments that they can refute while ignoring those they cannot, pointing to a vaguely defined local consensus without pointing to a specific decision, and a fair bit of diversion with the whole complaint of not tagging @Springee, who is already quite thoroughly engaged in this thread. Simonm223 (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm going to repeat this link which is referred to above but kind of hidden, here is the discussion that lead to the 2022 topic ban: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive312#Toa Nidhiki05, just in case anyone wants to review it. Liz 06:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- You’ve been doing this for years and were TBANed for it in 2022. Your attempt at denying it here rings hollow when multiple editors have been very explicit and provided diffs for sealioning behaviour. Im frankly a bit surprised at @JPxG’s rapid read of the situation considering the evidence of a TBAN for the exact behaviour raised here and multiple editors chiming in saying they see a WP:CPUSH. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 06:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Warrenmck, you've replied to this discussion 20 times you started it. I advise you to reign it in a bit, as this has been treading towards WP:BLUDGEONING. You don't need to reply to every single comment in this discussion. Just mentioning this because the constant replies actually dissuaded me from reading through it all. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I can back away Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 18:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated WP:GS/AA violations
On 26 October 2024, I informed User:Scherbatsky12 about the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction and explained what it meant.
Scherbatsky12 still created several articles or made expansions in areas covered by WP:GS/AA such as the following: Ibrahim Rahimov, Hokuma Aliyeva, Khalil Rza Uluturk, and made poorly sourced POV additions such as:
Not only Scherbatsky12 was aware about, and even deleted the GS/AA notice , they still made several articles in its violation regardless and made GS/AA breaching additions that also include POV poorly sourced edits. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Even after this report, Scherbatsky12 still continues violating the extended confirmed restriction . KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given them a final warning on the matter. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger thank you, but aren't we over a warning here? I've already left a notice on their talk back in October and explained what it meant. They still violated the restriction numerous times and even violated again just hours ago after this report. The WP:AA3 topic area has stricter rules enforcement than most other topics, and the behavior of Scherbatsky12 isn't encouraging. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger after violating the restriction while this report is ongoing , and your final warning, they've done it again in the same article: "On the day of the performance, there was a large audience, most of whom were Armenians". It's evident the user isn't competent enough to follow rules in contentious topics such as the AA3. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given them a final warning on the matter. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I apologize for the misunderstanding. What I do not understand is whether the occupation of Kalbajar by Armenian armed forces (1993) is considered controversial or problematic (). I have merely noted that Hokuma Aliyeva relocated due to the occupation of Kalbajar (). The rest resulted from careless translation and will not be repeated again.
- This isn't about if Scherbatsky12 thinks their one edit is right or wrong: the point is they shouldn't have been editing info covered by the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction at all until reaching extended confirmed rank. The fact they still don't understand this is a clear indication of incompetence in a highly contentious topic area at that. Not only this, they continued violating the restriction while being reported here. And additionally, they're now attributing "the rest" of their POV edits to "careless translation", which is bizarre: how one doesn't even check what articles/edits they're making before publishing "translations" especially in a topic area that they were alerted is contentious and while violating a restriction they were aware about too? After their comment here, it's not reassuring that this wouldn't happen again and is further clear to me that Scherbatsky12 isn't competent enough to edit in a contentious topic area such as the AA3. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 15:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Caribbean Hindustani
This is probably not the appropriate page, but I couldn't find a better one. If an admin may have a look at the version history of the Caribbean Hindustani article - there's two quite new editors battling out a dispute since December. Maybe some administrative guidance would help them. Thanks and kind regards, Grueslayer 18:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per the notice at the top of this page, you were supposed to alert both editors of this thread. I've done so for you. Tarlby 18:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This: , may or may not be helpful. I'd also add that I can't force someone to discuss something on the talkpage: Hermes Express (talk) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That would make sense if you'd tried discussing on the talk page, but you didn't head there until Tarbly asked you to. You can't force someone to discuss something but you can try discussing which you haven't done until now. Expecting the other party to start a discussion is rarely good editor behaviour especially when you are edit warring. Instead it's like a lame kids 'they started it' defence. The only way you can prove an editor refuses to discuss on the talk page is by trying otherwise you can both be counted as refusing to discuss. To be clear except the first sentence, this applies to both of you. Nil Einne (talk) 00:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have added several sources and journel and official government and NGO sites that work on it to prove what I am writing. But that user dont have source to prove it and its just his opinion which he had written.
- He also wrote his opinion on Hindustani page which got removed by the admin as it was false information but the same thing when I added on caribbean Hindustani page, he reverted my changes. If writing opinion as a fact and that too without any source and also the source provided dont match with the information.
- I had talk with the user and explained several times in the edit and on talk page as well. I have explained everything which I added with source unlike him. Adrikshit (talk) 04:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Potential block evasion by IP 211.184.93.253 (old IP 58.235.154.8)
Blocks guaranteed. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The IP 58.235.154.8 was banned on December 29, 2024 (6 month block duration) for disruptive editing. To be specific, they would write in a delay of a Starship launch by exactly one month, without any citations.
They had been banned before (two month ban) for the same behaviour.
A few examples that I sourced in my report of 58.235.154.8:
IP 211.184.93.253 is now repeating this pattern, in what appears to be block-evasion.
Out of the five edits made by this IP:
Made before 58.235.154.8 ban, changed Flight 8 launch date from Early 2025 to February 2025. Doesn't add a source.
Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches from February 2025 to March 2025. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches, again from February to March. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.
This is either a similarly disruptive editor, or more likely, a ban evader continuing their vandalism. Either way, they are not here to improve Misplaced Pages. Redacted II (talk) 19:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Additionally, geolocate places both IP addresses in the same region, which makes it quite likely that they are evading a ban.
- Geolocate 1
- Geolocate 2 Redacted II (talk) 19:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. Liz 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. Redacted II (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:RPP Rusalkii (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! Redacted II (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) (added after discussion close)
- WP:RPP Rusalkii (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. Redacted II (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. Liz 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Danny5784
Danny5784 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) does not seem to have the maturity and judgement to be a productive editor. Despite a litany of talk page warnings and efforts by multiple editors to explain things to them, they are continuing to create unneeded pages. Of the 18 articles they've created, 9 have been redirected (mostly at AfD), 2 deleted, and 4 currently have unanimous delete/redirect consensus at AfD. Three of their most recent creations are particularly noteworthy:
- After Draft:New Jersey Transit 6539-6549 was declined by Stuartyeates, and I warned them that such pages are not notable, Danny5784 created it anyway.
- Danny5784 created NJ Transit bus garages with poor sourcing, much of it from a user-generated wiki. After Djflem wrangled it into a useful list, Danny5784 created both New Jersey Transit bus garages and NJ Transit Bus Garage Fleet/Routes apparently as content forks.
Danny5784 also has issues with copyright: they uploaded a large number of now-deleted files on Commons and seem unwilling to actually obtain verifiable permission, then did the exact same thing here, plus using blatantly false non-free content criteria.
With 460 edits over 15 months, Danny5784 is past the point where these can just be dismissed as newbie mistakes. They are a rather young editor who is unwilling or unable to follow basic norms such as notability, reliable sourcing, and copyright. Until they demonstrate more maturity, I believe a prohibition from page creation (article, template, and file upload) is needed. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Incorrect and no. No prohibition is necessary. You would need to teach and show him how it is done.
- Don't even try to prohibit him. Over 15 months of editing, you still don't even accept it?! What is wrong with you? Your more stricter than high school so, knock it off and NO PROBITION! And also, he's trying his best to do it right. Toyota683 (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear
Confirmed result.-- Ponyo 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - The Bushranger One ping only 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem, ever, with unarchiving, The Bushranger. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. Liz 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I just try to help run a clean ship. And no worries! As far as I can tell the template's working, but will leave this unhatted given that. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:26, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem, ever, with unarchiving, The Bushranger. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. Liz 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - The Bushranger One ping only 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear
- I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- As the editor who declined the article above at AfC, I'd encourage admins to shepherd young newbies towards AfC and similar venues. It's what we're hear for (if anything I should have given better comments in my decline). Stuartyeates (talk) 08:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Clerical note that this user is not the similarly named DannyS712. jp×g🗯️ 21:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
User LivinAWestLife vandalizing Republican Party article
LivinAWestLife made a large change to the Republican Party article which changed the ideology of the party from the consensus Center-right to fascist. They quickly then changed the text to "far-right" . Any seasoned editor should know such behavior is beyond reckless and clearly disruptive. Springee (talk) 00:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back. LivinAWestLife (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vandalism is vandalism and is not funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a very low tolerance for trolls, especially in contentious topics. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that there are jokes, and then there are "oh hell no" situations. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are several people who feel the current discussion of political ideology of the Republican party is non-neutral. Disruptive drive-by edits actually make correcting such problems harder rather than easier. So please stop. Simonm223 (talk) 12:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that there are jokes, and then there are "oh hell no" situations. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was over half an hour in which the edits in question were live before they were reverted by a third party so "minutes at most" doesn't seem very applicable. If you really have a primal urge to vandalize an article, there is a correct way to do so without disrupting the wiki - see WP:HTVC. Departure– (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Extremely unbecoming to do something like this during a major political transition. This causes thousands of people to further distrust Misplaced Pages. It could even be outright dangerous. Even more ridiculous to hide behind humor. I'm not anyone important but I want to convey to you directly how outrageous I find this to be. Garnet Moss (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Couldn't you have just used inspect element? Doombruddah (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're taking a very long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. Doombruddah (talk) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back» and there are no consequences? XavierItzm (talk) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- If there's no further disruption and they've recognized what they did was wrong and committed to not do it again then a trout is likely sufficient. Of course if there's further disruption that would be a different matter entirely. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They've gotten a level four vandalism warning and are now put at the end of their rope. In my opinion, everything is in order here. Per above, disruption either won't continue, and if it does, further sanctions will follow. Departure– (talk) 16:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per the idea that blocks etc should be preventative not punitive, I agree that no further action seems like the correct option. Certainly LivinAWestLife is/should be clearly aware that their actions were not acceptable and I agree that they slid to the end of the rope. However, absent additional actions like this we are probably done. Springee (talk) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back» and there are no consequences? XavierItzm (talk) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. Doombruddah (talk) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're taking a very long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vandalism is vandalism and is not funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a very low tolerance for trolls, especially in contentious topics. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Editor repeatedly reverting edits
Cambial_Yellowing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This editor is starting editwar again, just reverted my edit, and has done this before with these edits A and B, repeatedly.! I tried to communicate on talk page but editor just went away! For such behavior the editor has been blocked before
This editor last time also pushed me to violate WP:3RR , While i was trying to improve the SIF article by moving criticism out of the theology section to separate criticism section, as per WP:CRITS where it is clearly mentioned
"In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title, for example, if there is a large body of critical material, and if independent secondary sources comment, analyze or discuss the critical material."
Because, before this, i was reading similar article, Minjung theology and the criticism section make it easy to understand.
I don't know why the editor doesn't understand Theology and criticism are not the same thing, which is common sense, but I was punished for using my common sense before, and now this again! Sokoreq (talk) 02:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, Sokoreq,
- First WP:ANEW is the noticeboard to report edit-warring, secondly, you haven't provided any diffs of edit warring and, first and foremost, no one can "push" you to violate our guidelines on edit-warring, take responsibility for your own mistakes. Liz 02:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, ANI should be where you come when other methods of communication have failed. Have you started a discussion on the article talk page or posted to their user talk page about your differences? Give it a shot before coming to ANI. Liz 02:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry@Liz actually before this, i went on your talk page to discuss and waited for days, and about previous revertes i have provided edit warnings. Sokoreq (talk) 02:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's your action, not theirs. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are the one who started removing/reverting edits repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on talk page to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are doing again. Plese see SIF edit history. Sokoreq (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's good you have accepted that mistake, but you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen again, no matter what another editor "starts". WP:3RR is a bright line. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are the one who started removing/reverting edits repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on talk page to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are doing again. Plese see SIF edit history. Sokoreq (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's your action, not theirs. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, Sokoreq, that was my fault, I'm behind responding to talk page messages, I apologize for that. But I didn't mean that you should post a template on Cambial Yellowing's user talk page that was more suitable for a new editor (and they have been editing for over 5 years), I meant actually talking through a discussion. I can see that another editor already posted on their User talk page about the article talk page, you could have joined that discussion or posted on the article talk page. Again, my apologies about my lack of responsiveness. Liz 02:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They edit in group, while i started a discussion first but then first editor didn't explanation much and went for a week, again today I tried on talk page but didn't receive any reply, I apologize for any inconvenience but this is very new for me. Sokoreq (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I respect they are senior editors, but I don't understand what they are upto and there is some discussion on the associated talk page for months is hard to understand. The talk page is messy; it's difficult to understand who is who and what is what? Sokoreq (talk) 02:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Science_of_Identity_Foundation is related to this. Sokoreq's response to being reverted was to baselessly accuse an editor of COI and harassment . When someone else reverted them they too were accused of harassment . After the COIN discussion didn't go their way, they continued to double down on COI accusations: . This latest report is more of the same. Despite being directed there numerous times by several editors, they still have not posted on the article's associated talk page - ever. I suggest that a WP:BOOMERANG sanction is appropriate here. - MrOllie (talk) 03:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are we sure they understand? Moxy🍁 03:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @MrOllie Yeh, I went to the COI noticeboard a week ago. It's closed now, because I didn't have evidence to prove. and the editor was also repeatedly reverting without explanation and suddenly went for a week. I have discussed the matter with that editor on my talk page. What do you want to prove through this? Sokoreq (talk) 03:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sokoreq, that article talk page is quite an immense discussion on one specific aspect of the article that has nothing to do with your interests so I'd just start a new discussion there. I also see that you just removed a discussion on your user talk page with User:Hipal from your own talk page and asked them not to post on it any longer. You will not get very far on a collaborative editing project if you refust to actually communicate with editors you have disagreements with. Actual discussion, with opinions, arguments, diffs and sources with other editors is how consensus is formed on this project. But you can't seek to eliminate every editor you disagree with or you will not be editing here for a long time. It can be challenging but every editor on this project has to find a way to work with editors who have differences with and that is usually accomplished, not through coming to a noticeboard but by presenting a solid argument on an article talk page and convincing other editors that your position is stronger. But ANI doesn't exist to get rid of other editors who revert you. If edit-warring is an actual problem, which doesn't seem to be the case here, then post a formal case at WP:ANEW. Liz 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. Liz 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I read over Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Science of Identity Foundation discussion and I haven't said anything to you that you weren't already told at COIN. What is your resistance to having a discussion on the article talk page? That should be your first destination when you have a disagreement, not ANI. Now, I'm going to stop because I'm just repeating advice that you've already been given. Liz 04:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Liz, this is really helpful. I hope they will communicate.! Thank you for creating space on the discussion page. I will keep this in mind for next time. And for formal cases, I will post on WP:ANEW. Thanks again Sokoreq (talk) 04:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. Liz 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Usually, when an editor returns to their edit war after being blocked, without once contributing to the article talk page discussions, they are blocked.
I think a good case can be made for Sokoreq is WP:NOTHERE , those diffs () show an inability to work with others and take accountability for their own actions. The subsequent canvassing, here and here and the behavior that led to this discussion show that it's unlikely to end without further intervention. --Hipal (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know what you're up to, but from the beginning, I was just trying to understand your disagreements. But, you went away for days. I don’t have anything personal against you now, and I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above. I will discuss any future disagreements on the article's talk page. Thanks Sokoreq (talk) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above
That's not what you did, and that's disruptive. --Hipal (talk) 00:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- Hipal, can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? Liz 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- There doesn't appear to be any olive branch being offered. The comments from Sokoreq, here and elsewhere, have me wondering if they are using an AI or auto-translator to communicate with us. I see very little understand of what's being written, less still of actual policy, all while downplaying or ignoring, often misrepresenting, their own behavior. --Hipal (talk) 02:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hipal, can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? Liz 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Trolling at Talk:Denali
Done (for now). - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 2600:1700:9366:e040:506c:d71c:7e0b:3528 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
WP:RBI please. Jasper Deng (talk) 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:AIV? Tarlby 17:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No response there; strictly speaking it might not be the most obvious vandalism in any case.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have requested protection for the talk page. I'll see how it goes. I have suspicion of meatpuppetry/canvassing from 4chan. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Semi-protected now, thanks User:Isabelle Belato Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP blocked and page protected for a short period. I'm guessing this first month we will see a lot of these types of editors. Isabelle Belato 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato and Acroterion: Needs talk page access yanked too.--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Meatpuppetry/tag teaming at Conor Benn
Resolved. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
EWN report stalled, so bringing this here. User:GiggaHigga127 and I engaged in an edit war at Conor Benn, which began as a content dispute but is now more of conduct issue. Less than 12 hours after he was blocked (for good reason), User:Dennis Definition shows up as a brand new single-purpose account to make the exact same edit for the "win", whilst predictably denying any connection. How is this not gaming?
I'd be happy to hash out the original content dispute at WikiProject Boxing and see if anything needs tweaking at our style guide, but not when there's obvious bad faith tag teaming going on. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's an LTA trying to cause trouble. Blocked now.-- Ponyo 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've restored it to the pre-socking version and Daniel Case has semi-protected the article.-- Ponyo 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Appreciated. Discussion at the Project forthcoming. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've restored it to the pre-socking version and Daniel Case has semi-protected the article.-- Ponyo 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Potential Block Evasion by IP 47.67.231.5 (Original IP range 47.69.0.0, first sock IP 80.187.75.118)
An IP is behaving similary to an IP range blocked by last November. The orignal block was later extended due to block evasion.
The location of these IP addresses are all quite similar, which I have attached below.
Suspect Second blocked IP Redacted II (talk) 22:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- EDIT: The IP is now
bannedblocked, with the original IP'sbanblock extended by another three months. Redacted II (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- WP:BLOCKNOTBAN - The Bushranger One ping only 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for the correction on my wording. Redacted II (talk) 23:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BLOCKNOTBAN - The Bushranger One ping only 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Harassment and personal attacks
Riventree called another editor and myself a moron, said to track down the editor who approved the DYK, and called me an idiot. SL93 (talk) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indef'd. Completely unacceptable behavior. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but indef for a user who has, generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked once? Daniel Case (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It did. And 'indefinite' is not 'infinite'; once they acknowledge their error, the block can be lifted, but not before. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed. I would further posit that a user who has been around for fifteen years really ought to know not go on the attack like this. There are ways to discuss content you don't agree with, there was no need for the blown gasket here. I edit conflicted with the above I also was going to add that Indefinite does not mean infinite, they can request an unblock as soon as right now. Beeblebrox 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. Cullen328 (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this:
'twas a crime of passion (politics got the better of me)- I really would hate for Misplaced Pages to get drawn into the petty politics of the USA)
. Since when was a DYK about feminism about petty American politics? I don't usually deal with unblock requests so I'll leave this for another admin, but I don't think they entirely understand why their behaviour is considered problematic. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- It looks to me like they understand what they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the why (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - The Bushranger One ping only 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I tried to see if I could convince them to understand and apologize for it, and I'm confused about why a long-time editor would go off the rails about feminism or politics. It wasn't fruitful. I wish you admins good luck. SL93 (talk) 02:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per our own internal classification (e.g. WP:GGTF/WP:GENSEX) it is formally a "contentious topic", and the article feminism is in the {{political ideologies}} navbox. While it might initially seem confusing that a thing called "feminism" could be a political subject, it has been one for about the last century (e.g. suffrage is a central aspect of politics, and civil rights for women in the United States were often pursued through legislation and jurisprudence). Moreover, many issues that do not directly involve the apparatus of government are often referred to as "political" if they are the center of substantial cultural discourse or disagreement. jp×g🗯️ 11:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It looks to me like they understand what they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the why (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - The Bushranger One ping only 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have heard people use the phrase "track down" in colloquial speech for decades, and in the overwhelming majority of cases (when applied to a person) it means to get in contact with, or locate:
- "The machine in booth 7 is shorting out again, I'm going to see if I can track down the repairman."
- "Someone track down the QC inspector and tell her these parts are out of spec."
- "When we get into town, we should track down a food truck."
- I am not really sure why these sentences would, prima facie, constitute a violent threat. Perhaps if the speaker was loading a shotgun and wearing a blood-spattered "I HATE FOOD TRUCKS!" t-shirt -- but absent that, I would assume they just wanted a sandwich. In this case, I would assume the obvious straightforward meaning of the person's sentence -- that the person responsible should be admonished, or complained to, or sanctioned. jp×g🗯️ 11:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this:
- I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. Cullen328 (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but indef for a user who has, generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked once? Daniel Case (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- So okay, I looked up the hook. Apparently, it was this:
- From time to time we do have some DYK hooks that are controversial or edgy, so I was expecting something like that, but this is not that.
- I must confess that not only does this DYK hook not offend me, I am not even sure what part of it (the DYK hook) someone else might find offensive (the DYK hook). The best I can come up with is that bro was having a really bad day and decided to randomly flip out at the first thing that he found mildly politically annoying. This is really not great behavior, and probably it warrants some warning or admonishment or block. However, if someone has been editing for sixteen years with no problem, I feel like this is not a sign of utter incompatibility with a collaborative editing project, and I am inclined to grant the unblock request, as they have explained pretty succinctly what the problem is and I am fairly convinced they will not do it again. On this same page, a few sections up (Special:Permalink/1271035842#User:TTYDDoopliss_and_gender-related_edits), it seems like we have something of a recent precedent when someone is engaging in blatant personal attacks with regard to the topic of feminism: they are handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology, refuse to do so multiple times, and are only blocked when they go too far
and it is unrelatedly discovered that they are a sockpuppet. Moreover, we can easily find many other instances of people doing and saying far worse stuff than this, dozens of times, and then all their buddies show up to glaze them at the ANI thread and they get a strong admonishment. I do think it's bad to flip out and call people idiots, but I don't think they need to be forever removed from the project. jp×g🗯️ 10:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- As a compromise between zero and infinity, reduced to two weeks. jp×g🗯️ 11:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @JPxG He very clearly did not explain or show why what he did was wrong, nor did he give an apology (which was halfhearted ay best) until prompted three times. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- TTYDDoopliss was blocked indefinitely for trolling by Canterbury Tail before being found put as a sock by spicy. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Amended, thanks. jp×g🗯️ 15:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @JPxG: Did you discuss this with the original blocking admin beforehand? And I agree with voorts that they do not completely understand what they did was wrong. I don't think it's appropriate to change the blocking time without a consensus at this point. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, he did not, and I agree that this unblock should not have happened. This attempt to downplay "editor X should be tracked down" by comparing it to tracking down spare parts is frankly bizarre. You shouldn't be unblocking people if you don't understand why saying that (even if not serious) can be extremely scary to that editor, who now might need to worry about a sociopath from the internet trying to hurt them. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also RE the TTYD block JPxG should know that "what about X" isn't really a good argument on wiki. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you think I am lying (?) about this phrase being used in normal contexts, I will look it up in the dictionary. Here is what Cambridge's definition says:
to search for someone or something, often when it is difficult to find that person or thing:
I’m trying to track down one of my old classmates from college.
- Dictionary.com says:
Follow successfully, locate, as in I've been trying to track down that book but haven't had any luck. This term alludes to the literal use of track , “follow the footsteps of.”
- Collins says:
If you track down someone or something, you find them, or find information about them, after a difficult or long search.
She had spent years trying to track down her parents.
I'll go and have a quick word, then we'll track down Mr Derringer.
The last time I had flown with him into the Sahara to track down hijacked weapons.
There had been some spectacular busts in recent history, but even the FBI could not work fast enough to track down these people.
- Do you think that "trying to track down her parents" implies that the person in the example sentence is a "sociopath" who is "trying to hurt them"? I agree that this was a very dumb choice of words, due to the potential for being misinterpreted, as can be seen above. Indeed, one of the examples (the last given) does imply hostility. I would not say this. I do not think that all of these dictionaries are engaged in a "frankly bizarre attempt to downplay" the phrase, nor do I think that is a fair summary of what I did. jp×g🗯️ 14:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm saying that I agree that there are other ways to read tracking someone down but it still wasn't appropriate to adjust blocking time without consensus. This was more than simply calling a person an idiot. They said
Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page
andAnd: You're an idiot for approving political flamebait for the front page.
Their unblock rationale is not good enough, in my opinion. Just because incivility isn't enforced enough as it should be isn't a reason to just not apply it all. Indefinite does mean infinite, but the editor in question should come up with a better unblock request instead of simply waiting out the two weeks and going back to editing like nothing happened. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- I suppose you may be correct. Well, I am going to bed; if a bunch of people come up and say the guy is really that much of a menace that the block needs to be lengthened, I will not be around to do so. I will abide my general practice on administrative actions, which is that if someone is so convinced of my idiocy they feel the need to undo it, then sure, I guess. jp×g🗯️ 15:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think you're lying, just a bit naïve. If someone says
"Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page! And then track down the editor who put it there."
on the internet to a stranger, the common sense interpretation is that it is a threat of violence. Your examples of other uses of the wording are all well and good when discussing in-person, normal interactions. But the pseudonymity of social media emboldens the craven. Threats of violence come easier to the keyboard fingers when the perpetrator is safely out of reach. Zaathras (talk) 14:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- Well, when confronted, he said that it was not meant to suggest anything be done to the person:
I mentioned no one by name,and suggested no action. Therefore neither puposefully OR blantantly nor would that constitute harrassment.
This seems pretty straightforward to me, although I get that people want the guy gone, so do what you want. jp×g🗯️ 15:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, when confronted, he said that it was not meant to suggest anything be done to the person:
- I'm saying that I agree that there are other ways to read tracking someone down but it still wasn't appropriate to adjust blocking time without consensus. This was more than simply calling a person an idiot. They said
- No, he did not, and I agree that this unblock should not have happened. This attempt to downplay "editor X should be tracked down" by comparing it to tracking down spare parts is frankly bizarre. You shouldn't be unblocking people if you don't understand why saying that (even if not serious) can be extremely scary to that editor, who now might need to worry about a sociopath from the internet trying to hurt them. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a compromise between zero and infinity, reduced to two weeks. jp×g🗯️ 11:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: commute block to topic ban
Self-explanatory, I think. Riventree's outburst, and the follow up discussion on their talk page, show that they hold views incompatible with neutral editing about this topic. Furthermore there clearly was not consensus to unblock (the blocking administrator explicitly said no) and JPxG's cowboy admin action should not stand, but a wheel war isn't going to help anyone. A topic ban from AP2, gender-related controversies, and/or feminism as a broad topic, would serve to prevent future disruption in these sensitive topics; meanwhile Riventree can appeal the sanction later once they've taken time to reflect on their behaviour here.
- Support as proposer; interested in further comments on the scope of a topic ban. Ivanvector (/Edits) 15:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lengthen the block if you want. jp×g🗯️ 15:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- They've made a total of 135 edits since the beginning of 2022, 17 of which have been in the last 24 hours. I'm not sure how much a topic ban really matters. Never the less, I'd support a topic ban as a bare minimum, especially considering their follow up edits to Retelling (1, 2. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think a topic ban is needed. This editor has never edited in that area before and I presume will not after this debace. I would like tue indef to be reimposed until we actually get a sufficient unblock request. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Considering this is such an old account and the bad edits are all recent, is it possible we're dealing with a compromised account situation? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Problematic edits in the AMPOL area and with other users aren't recent. Never say never, but judging from some of their older edits:
- : unsourced switching of the language from "break free" to "resisted arrest" in the Killing of Rayshard Brooks. (Followup conversation at Eeng's talkage, wher they justified the change as original research ; note that at the time, the BLP policy still applied to Brooks so accusing him of a crime without a source is a major no-no)
- Removed the fact that the counterfeit bill Floyd was accused of having was a $20 bill with the edit summary "Exclude trivia" in Murder of George Floyd.
- : Changed "it is widely believed that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" "it feared that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" with the edit summary "Forgive me, I abhor emotion-laden politics, but this is actually relevant here" - note how it is very similar to the language and tone they used at DYK yesterday
- User talk:Andy Dingley/Archive 2020#Do you even READ my comments anymore, or do you just click "revert" out of habit? shows the same pattern of coming in very strong with personal attacks and aspersions, then backing down and apologizing a while later.
- Talk:Holocene extinction/Archive 3#Softening of exceedingly authoritative language and some attempting to desribe the Holocene Extinction as "theoretical", something something "the knee-jerk alarmists who were happy to simply assert human causation as the cause of an eco-disaster".
- Tried to make the article Millennium Challenge 2002 more neutral by adding an unsourced paragraph called "The Argument Over 'Scripting'". When questioned on the taklk, they justified this by saying
UM, no. It's just deduction. It's certainly not 'military propaganda', because the neutrality flag pointed out that the military perspective (not side, not propaganda) wasn't included at all.
1.
- Additionally, and I find this especially relevant given @JPxG's concerns about a double standard because they weren't "handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology", they were given a final warning for harrassment and personal attacks by Yunshui in 2020.. Follow up here:, though I obvious do not know the severity of what Riventree did, given that it apparently needed revdel. Can any admin give insight? GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Problematic edits in the AMPOL area and with other users aren't recent. Never say never, but judging from some of their older edits:
- Considering this is such an old account and the bad edits are all recent, is it possible we're dealing with a compromised account situation? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think a topic ban is needed. This editor has never edited in that area before and I presume will not after this debace. I would like tue indef to be reimposed until we actually get a sufficient unblock request. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support Whether the account is compromised or not I don't think we want to have an editor who responds this way to something as bromine as the idea of the feminist retelling editing in the various contentious topics that this overlaps. I'd want to see such a TBan encompassing at least WP:GENSEX broadly construed. As for AP2 I'm a bit worried of the tendency of Americans to turn every social issue into a domestic political issue, especially immediately following a governmental transition but AP2 needs fewer hot-heads, not more, so I'd be weakly supportive of that one too. Simonm223 (talk) 19:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not think that a topic ban is the solution to this problem. The colloquial phrase "track down" can certainly be used benignly as the various quotes above show, but context is all-important. In this case, as it was actually used in the context of the rage filled rant, I read it as either a threat of outing (most likely) or a threat of violence (distinctly possible). In my opinion, this editor needs to show a deeper understanding of why what they said was intimidating and totally wrong. Cullen328 (talk) 20:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Reinstate indef
A discussion is needed on this to prevent WP:WHEEL from applying. Proposal is pretty much the title, reinstate indef until a more convincing unblock rationale is made.
- Support as proposer. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support with the conditional modifier that I would like to see the tban discussed in the proposal above remain in effect should they subsequently become unblocked. Simonm223 (talk) 19:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose reinstating indef, support gensex/ap2 topic ban. If they can't handle that, then indef. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support It shouldn't have been lifted in the first place. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per Voorts and the long pattern of sub-optimal behavior and previous warnings as documented by GreenLipstickLesbian. GLL, as for the revision deleted content, in the process of mocking an editor they disagreed with, this editor linked to another website that criticized the mocked editor and outed a third editor. It was ugly in general but linking to the outing was what led to the revdel. Cullen328 (talk) 21:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support given the history—particularly the outing, which correlates with the “track down” comment in the current case. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Anonymous8206
Editor using Misplaced Pages as a social network blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Anonymous8206 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Disruptive (soapbox, forum) and personal attacks at Donald Trump for over a year. Examples: .
They have been warned on their talk page multiple times for this, e.g.: Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BLP policy applies to every living person, even Donald Trump. I think a topic ban from all things Trump, broadly construed, is called for here. Cullen328 (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example of using talk pages as a forum on an unrelated topic: Special:PermanentLink/1268615581#Liddle Hart.
I think a final warning rather than a TBAN would be appropriate.voorts (talk/contributions) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) - I've indef'd this user as not here. Per X-tools, 152/182 edits (83.5%) are in talkspace, 105 are to Talk:Donald Trump in particular, and 3 are to mainspace. Apart from the problematic Trump edits, most of this user's other edits appear to be similar forumy posts or musings on random talk pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Two editors edit warring and attacking others while whitewashing fascism of an individual
As the title suggests, this includes:
- SuvGh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Camarada internacionalista (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Has tried to remove the reliably sourced content 3 times, and used rude editor summaries like "disgusting argument". Has no activity on talk page or anywhere else to address his edits. See WP:COMMUNICATE.
Both of them were sufficiently warned. Capitals00 (talk) 02:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Blocked SuvGh for 24 hours for personal attacks in edit summaries and violating 3RR in spirit if not in letter (slightly over 24 hours for four reverts but blatant edit-warring). Camarada internatcionalista hasn't breached 3RR but is edit-warring, I'll let another admin decide if they need a block as they aren't currently editing it appears. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- That talk page section they made should have been removed for being a WP:FORUM attempt to disparage sources on grounds of national origin. Borgenland (talk) 03:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Camarada internacionalista has made 2 more reverts now. Capitals00 (talk) 05:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
I have blocked both editors indefinitely. Hate is disruptive. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 05:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 - personal attacks
2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs) I saw an IP making an unmistakable personal attack on one user (telling them to resign for being "worthless"), and all of their edits are like this, it seems. I think that the /64 edits from a few days ago on the Denali situation are enough to say that they're the same user on the IP, given the political nature. I'm almost certain they're abusing a larger range than this, as zooming out to the /42 shows more political badgering. A previous /64 in that range was blocked as well for similar reasons. Departure– (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I blocked. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just for the one IP, though - the range is unblocked, looks like. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. I was sleeping, but good to see action being taken. :) EF 13:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Incivility and edit-warring
After being explained by Wiznut at 1.00am UTC today about how even discussing through edit summaries while reverting in good faith is edit warring, Thelittlefaerie has opened a discussion on the article talk and stopped edit warring. Additionally, they are now aware that making personal attacks is prohibited and have issued an apology to editors they attacked while in a heated argument. As a talk discussion is now open for content issues, and this user now seems aware about how we resolve disputes here on Misplaced Pages, I am closing this section with no prejudice to it being re-opened should subpar behaviour recur. I think a little WP:ROPE is justified here as they are a new editor, who now knows about the dispute resolution processes and is now engaging collaboratively. MolecularPilot 06:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is concerning user User:Thelittlefaerie (talk and contributions). A new user, who initially made several good faith mistakes related to providing sources and not using original research. However, he also decided that the Afghanistan population at List of countries and dependencies by population needed to be correct. A history of the edit war, which involved Thelittlefaerie vs three other editors (including me):
Users involved:
Thelittlefaerie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Wizmut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
MIHAIL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Magnolia677 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Dates:
20 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie changes the figure without a source, which is reverted by me. For this article, unsourced changes happen regularly, so I did not take the effort to give Thelittlefaire much explanation.
21 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie tries again, this time using a source, but an unreliable one.
22 Dec 2024 : I revert, mentioning the selection criteria for this article's sources. Thelittlefaerie reverts, and also reverts an unrelated change. I leave it, and instead start a topic on the talk page.
26 Dec 2024 : User User:MIHAIL (talk and contributions) changes the figure back to an official source. (yes that government does use google drive links)
3 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie changes it back to his version, and in the edit summary he uses the phrase "This is your final straw."
7 Jan 2025 : MIHAIL changes it back. His edit summary in full: "why insist with UN or copies of UN when you have official data ?... i've seen Thelittlefaerie vandalize certain pages... the official matters, not fanaticism". In a vain attempt to help matters, I add a footnote to the Afghanistan entry detailing three different estimates.
16 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie again, this time including in his edit summary "And now you are acting like a complete fool. I am DONE WITH THIS. You are just a terrible person." and also "Either stop or I'll keep making edits." This edit was particularly troublesome, not only for the incivility, but because he reverted over a dozen unrelated edits. This was reverted by User:Magnolia677.
17 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie says he "could not reach out to you Magnolia677" (I can see no such attempt) and reverts again. This again reverts over a dozen unrelated changes, so I do the revert this time, and also try to warn Thelittlefaerie on the talk page and on his user page.
22 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie comes back and reverts, without affecting other entries and without incivility. After this, he finally posts on the talk page, with the argument: "I am putting the right source and this is the right version. Please do not change."
I would like help in responding to this user, who has exhausted my patience.
Wizmut (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Magnolia's user talk page is extended confirmed protected, due to WP:LTA-related issues, so their story of trying to reach out to her but failing does check out. Both their behaviour and edit summaries are completely unacceptable, however. MolecularPilot 04:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does seem like this could have gone to WP:ANEW. But since it is here now, I'd like to hear from User:Thelittlefaerie. They don't edit every day so I'm not sure when they might show up. I think discussion would be more effective than a block as they could end up being blocked over days when they aren't even on Misplaced Pages. Liz 04:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello! Thelittlefaerie speaking. My final message be put in simple words, I necessarily don't think that the population of Afghanistan would be 35M which the google drive link states. There are many reasons supporting this. First of all, if you look at a number of sources showing the population of Afghanistan in 2006, it shows it as 31-32M. It has been 19 years since that official estimate (I believe) and I really don't think that the population of Afghanistan in the year of 2023-2025 would be 35M. Second of all, Afghanistan has one of the highest fertility rates in the world right now, which in response to the following reverts, do not relate or make sense. Thirdly and lastly, I have visited Afghanistan myself and is a full blooded Afghan and I can assure you there are way more than 35M people This leads me to believe that the USCB or UN estimates are more thoughtful. Thank you. Thelittlefaerie (talk) 05:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, Thelittlefaerie! Thank you for raising these points. ANI is, however, for conduct issues, not content issues - we don't assess whether what you were trying to do is valid but analyse your behaviour including comments like "terrible person" and "complete fool". It is good to see that your more recent commons are becoming more civil and engaging with other editors in a collaborative manner, like and which afterwards you started a discussion on the article talk after an editor, Wiznut, informed you of how to do this.
- I think if you can apologise and agree to not make personal attacks against other editors again, and refrain from edit warring (which it seems you have now learned about and stopped, by starting a Talk section and not continuing to discuss in edit summaries of subsequent reverts) and engage on the talk page section you started we should all be able to move forward civilly and collaboratively here. If this doesn't reach a consensus, you can seek dispute resolution.
- Thank you for your contributions trying to improve the article, I understand how frustrating some things can be as a newcomer and thank you for learning from your mistakes and working with us here! MolecularPilot 05:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- In response, I apologize and agree to not make personal attacks on other people. I was frustrated, but that is not an excuse for me. Thank you for your cooperation. Also, we should update the page on Afghanistan too as that says it has 35M.
- Thank you,
- Thelittlefaerie Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please ignore my latest message, I meant to send this to another talk page Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- (I mean the Afghanistan page updating.) Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please ignore my latest message, I meant to send this to another talk page Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello! Thelittlefaerie speaking. My final message be put in simple words, I necessarily don't think that the population of Afghanistan would be 35M which the google drive link states. There are many reasons supporting this. First of all, if you look at a number of sources showing the population of Afghanistan in 2006, it shows it as 31-32M. It has been 19 years since that official estimate (I believe) and I really don't think that the population of Afghanistan in the year of 2023-2025 would be 35M. Second of all, Afghanistan has one of the highest fertility rates in the world right now, which in response to the following reverts, do not relate or make sense. Thirdly and lastly, I have visited Afghanistan myself and is a full blooded Afghan and I can assure you there are way more than 35M people This leads me to believe that the USCB or UN estimates are more thoughtful. Thank you. Thelittlefaerie (talk) 05:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does seem like this could have gone to WP:ANEW. But since it is here now, I'd like to hear from User:Thelittlefaerie. They don't edit every day so I'm not sure when they might show up. I think discussion would be more effective than a block as they could end up being blocked over days when they aren't even on Misplaced Pages. Liz 04:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Update: Since the closure of this thread and after TFL found the talk page section and the two-way discussion began, MIHAL (already notified of this discussion above), using an edit summary containing personal attacks (they have been advised to apologise for these) reverted the changes by thelittlefaerie (made prior to joining the talk), which thelittlefaerie then reverted. Both users have now been informed by me that there is no "right version" for the article to be on while the talk page discussion occurs and so I think everyone is ready to collaborate and come up with a compromise, now understanding how talk discussions work, so this doesn't need to be reopened. Hopefully we can all find a solution together! :) MolecularPilot 21:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Swagsgod
(non-admin closure) Swagsgod blocked and TPA revoked. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:12, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can User:Swagsgod please be swiftly blocked? They are constantly creating inappropriate pages. They are listed at AIV, but the stream of new pages continues quite rapidly. Fram (talk) 12:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking into it. jp×g🗯️ 12:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeffed. Here is an example of the stuff they are spamming:
Multimedia Group is the largest independent commercial media and entertainment company in Ghana. Founded in 1995 by a Ghanaian entrepreneur, Mr. Kwame Appiah, the company has grown from humble beginnings with 12 employees to directly employing some 700 people across its 6 radio brands, 3 online assets and Ghana's first free multi channel television brand in over 25 years of operation. The Multimedia Group has been a major spur for the growth in the advertising, creative arts and entertainment industries, particularly the gospel music industry. The Multimedia Group Go For God
Certify your English anytime, anywhere Test online, no appointment needed Get results in 2 days A fraction of the cost of other tests
- etc. jp×g🗯️ 12:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I went through their contribs and deleted the spam pages (most of which had already been tagged properly by @Fram:). Let me know if I have missed anything. jp×g🗯️ 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. Their user page is extremely bizarre, but somehow gives the impression that they want to accuse the former president of Ghana of some "high criminal offense"? I guess deleting that one would be advisable (it certainly wouldn't lose anything of value). Fram (talk) 12:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Gone. —Kusma (talk) 12:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? You didn't believe that the user behind gibberish such as
Ordinary BBC at a temperature of unknown figures higher than the melting point of gallium, and 29" as you see Visualize Sunday,29Th October, 2025 Alarm 4:48pm UTC... from a Primark Bank Account which values an unregistered license sports cars in different variables used in Analysis
was qualified to "Certify your English anytime"? Meters (talk) 12:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- They keep going on their talk page now, maybe yank TPA? Supreme_Bananas (talk) 13:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? You didn't believe that the user behind gibberish such as
- Gone. —Kusma (talk) 12:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. Their user page is extremely bizarre, but somehow gives the impression that they want to accuse the former president of Ghana of some "high criminal offense"? I guess deleting that one would be advisable (it certainly wouldn't lose anything of value). Fram (talk) 12:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I went through their contribs and deleted the spam pages (most of which had already been tagged properly by @Fram:). Let me know if I have missed anything. jp×g🗯️ 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeffed. Here is an example of the stuff they are spamming:
IP Editor(s) continuously changing flags without source
The following IP Editor(s) have been making continuous changes to the flags on the Islamic State of Iraq page without any sources to backup their claims, when the changes are reverted, they just go back and revert the revert and still provide no source, thus causing what I believe to be an unnecessary disruption.
2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:d12c:6979:d06c:9d74, 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:ec:5fe:fa19:caa0, 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:7c47:7be6:c3c9:7078 and 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:6d71:4017:3ed8:b70d Catalyst GP real (talk) 14:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
142.190.62.131
Long-term abuse possible proxy vandal operating out of Alabama, vandalism-only account. Almost all edits to their talk page before the three-year-block are warnings or include Huggle tags(see tak page hist). The reason I'm reporting this user on ANI instead of AVI, is because of the user continuing to vandalize Misplaced Pages after blocks that sometimes took years to expire, one time even two years, which might fall under chronic intractable behavioral problems. This user is currently blocked for 3 years after I already reported them at AVI, but will likely continue to vandalize Misplaced Pages again after the block. This user has been vandalizing Misplaced Pages since 2020. The IP is from Alabama and belongs to a company named "Southern Light, LLC". I don't know if the user is actually operating out of Alabama, or if they are using a proxy. I've seen multiple IPs from the "142" range that are vandalizing Misplaced Pages or contributing unconstructively, although I don't think they have much to do with this user. Their edits to the page "Athenian democracy" didn't get reverted for over two years. Three of their edits got deleted, including their first edit. RaschenTechner (talk) 15:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP addresses generally do not correlate to a person. In most cases, they are randomly assigned to a customer on that ISP, then cycle around to another random customer. If there's a long history of petty vandalism, it could potentially be a school, library, public transportation, or some other shared IP with lots of users. Every so often, I think, "I should write an intro to IP addresses", but the best I've come up with yet is User:NinjaRobotPirate/IP editors. And while there are peer-to-peer proxies and VPNs all over the place, there's generally little reason for normal users get worried about them. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
IP range edit warring on variety of Canadian politics articles
An IP range user (2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) has been adding contentious or poorly sourced material to a variety of articles related to Canadian politics (including BLPs). I haven't been able to warn them as the IP changes frequently but did let them know here why I reverted their additions. They've also been causing problems in other articles with unreliable sources or poor information eg 1 eg 2.
The user does not appear to be interested in building an encyclopedia productively. Citing (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Tried notifying them here for what that's worth. Citing (talk) 17:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Abusive user
Valid vandalism revert of an edit that clearly looked like vandalism. That Shaggydan did not mean to vandalize is good, but it does not change the fact that any reasonable editor would have taken the edit as vandalism; editors are not expected to read minds. Shaggydan is advised that they have full responsibility for all edits made by their account, including those made by code they choose to run on their machine. I suggest they find something better to do than argue about this. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 17:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Moved from the help desk. Courtesy link: Opolito (talk · contribs), filed by Shaggydan (talk · contribs), moved by Departure– (talk) 17:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
User Opolito is flagging users, including me, for vandalism when there is no vandalism. Who is able to restrict his account and remove his warnings and how do I bring this to their attention? Shaggydan (talk) 15:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a matter for the Administrator's Noticeboard for Incidents. Be sure to read the rules there before posting your situation. Departure– (talk) 15:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Shaggydan. User:Opolito has flagged you for vandalism for this edit of yours. After he flagged you for vandalism on your talk page, you called him a swear word and then he flagged you for personal attack. And, it seems like the warnings he gives to other Users seem genuine. Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Shaggydan: - Let me caution you before bringing it to the notice board, your uncivil behavior such as this will very likely also be scrutinized. Furthermore by looking at this edit, I would suggest that it is very possible you will be the one facing sanctions. TiggerJay (talk) 15:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Shaggydan: Do you have a browser extension which automatically changes "Trump" to "Drumpf"? It may not have been your intention to make this change in edits but it looks like vandalism. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @PrimeHunter Thank you for being the first person to review my concern. As I mention on my Talk page, you are correct. As I mention there, I removed an extraneous word from early in the article. The only use of the word "Trump" occurs in a few titles in the reference section. I would have thought Misplaced Pages would not allow extensions to make edits. I was mistaken in my understanding of the security of the site's code. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. Opolito has acted in bad faith in this case and multiple others. Do you know how to invoke some supervision on his account? Shaggydan (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- You caused damage to the encyclopedia with that dumb browser extension, then blew up with actual personal attacks when someone came to the obvious conclusion that this constituted intentional vandalism. Get rid of the extension and stop trying to get others sanctioned for a situation of your making. Manufactured outrage is not a valid currency here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 17:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism.
You seriously don't understand how someone could reasonably see changing Trump's name to Drumpf could look like vandalism? BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 17:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @PrimeHunter Thank you for being the first person to review my concern. As I mention on my Talk page, you are correct. As I mention there, I removed an extraneous word from early in the article. The only use of the word "Trump" occurs in a few titles in the reference section. I would have thought Misplaced Pages would not allow extensions to make edits. I was mistaken in my understanding of the security of the site's code. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. Opolito has acted in bad faith in this case and multiple others. Do you know how to invoke some supervision on his account? Shaggydan (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Shaggydan: Do you have a browser extension which automatically changes "Trump" to "Drumpf"? It may not have been your intention to make this change in edits but it looks like vandalism. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- User Departure- moved this topic to this page and it appears to be the appropriate forum for my concern. I will add further detail to support my initial statement.
- I recently made a minor edit to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1270798753&markasread=333745816&markasreadwiki=enwiki&oldid=prev&title=Character.ai. A sentence early in the article read, "Many characters are be based on fictional media sources". I deleted the word "be" and explained my edit in the comments. There were 3 uses of the word "Trump" in titles in the reference section. Nine years ago TV show Last Week Tonight put out a Chrome extension that changes that surname to its original European spelling of "Drumpf". Unbeknownst to me the extension changed the three instances of "Trump" to "Drumpf" in citations of a page about a website that had nothing to do with politics or individuals with that name.
- Despite not changing any names in the article (only the reference titles) and making a constructive change to the article which was explained, Opolito assumed bad faith and slapped a vandalism warning on me. There was no discussion with me. A user of 1 year failed to follow the rules on reporting vandalism. It is my understanding this subjects me to a possible ban should he do this again. I am requesting any notation of vandalism be removed from my account.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. I brought this up in the talk section of my page. He responded it was my responsibility to make perfect edits and claimed I was complaining "the dog ate my homework". He write on my Talk page, "Your edit does not fall under "good faith" and was clearly vandalism. Your very poor excuses aren't convincing anyone." His response illustrates his obliviousness to what constitutes bad faith.
- He then left a warning about attacking other editors claiming I may be blocked from editing because he did not like my response to his false claim of vandalism in my own talk page. I have been a small editor for decades. I don't know how to make claims against others to manage their accounts, but he seems to have done that twice to my account. I am requesting any damage he did to my account be undone.
- I am not the only user to have this problem. User NoahBWill, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/User:NoahBWill2002, who 12 days ago started on his talk page, "Opolito, my friend, this is Noah B. Will; Why do you have to accuse me of vandalism? I've only been just trying to help out, that's all."
- Twenty two days ago a user wrote on his Talk page, "Ciarán Hinds is a Northern Irish actor. The infobox clearly states that he was born in Northern Ireland. Do not accuse people making factual changes to a dictionary of being 'not constructive' again." Opolito's response shows he neither understands that Northern Ireland, where Hinds was born, is not part of Ireland AND he continues to falsely charge users with malpractice even when he himself is wrong saying, "being born in Northern Ireland is not the same thing as being Northern Irish. The sources that describe his nationality at all describe him as "Irish". Misplaced Pages article reflect what the sources say. Changing an article to reflect your opinion instead of what the sources say is not allowed. Please do not continue to do so."
- 29 days ago user Wilvis1 added an appropriate fact to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Crisfield,_Maryland. He supported the fact with a link to a local business making the claim. Opolito accused Wilvis1 of posting spam. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Crisfield,_Maryland&action=history. It clearly was not spam.
- On December 5, Opolito threatened another user. That user responded, "You were also clearly threatening me of a block warning when I clearly did nothing wrong. I ask you kindly to please stop threatening me with your block notification messages on my talk page. You keep making up stuff and said just because I removed it, I didn’t like it, that is NOT were I’m coming from, I explained it to you three times in my edit summaries and yet you refuse to listen. Please chill with your edits and just listen for a moment before this gets out of hand. 2.56.173.95 (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)"
- These examples are just from users who have mentioned recent issues on his Talk page. His edit history confirms a pattern of abuse. A quick look shows on January 20 on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/David_Lynch he threatened user Vinnylospo with bring blocked from editing for adding "unsourced or poorly sources material" calling it a "final warning". Vinnylospo had added the page to the Category for January 2025 California Wildfires. The Hollywood Reporter, as referenced in the article, has reported Lynch's condition severely worsened upon being forced to evacuate due to the fires just before his death. Despite this, Opolito took offense at the inclusion of the category and again threatened a user who had made a good faith edit.
- I find this behavior deeply concerning and contrary to Misplaced Pages's mission. I just try to make the site a little better where I see errors or things that need cleaning up from time to time. I do not pretend to be versed in all the mechanisms in place for one user to harm another. I know enough that vandalism procedures were not correctly followed by Opolito in my case and others and that takes away from the site's mission. I hope this is in the right place and that something can be done to prevent this from continuing to occur. Shaggydan (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
User using multiple non-account IPs to mass-remove information
- 93.204.189.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 2003:D3:FF39:B51E:70D0:BF68:E7ED:B8DA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 2003:D3:FF39:B598:98F3:BF2A:47F0:FB06 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Those three accounts all appear to be the same person, who is doing mass removal of information with minimal to no notes. I have reverted some of their edits on Gerald Butler (writer) (because they removed information that I added and sourced myself), but user continuously reverts. After quickly going through their other edits, it doesn't appear they are making any constructive edits. I'd love some help dealing with this issue.--Bricks&Wood talk 18:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
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