Revision as of 20:41, 26 October 2013 view sourceTryptofish (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers69,644 edits →Reply to "A bit of editorial advice": another late comment← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 22:11, 22 January 2025 view source Cremastra (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers23,809 edits →Discussion: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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As this page concerns INCIDENTS: | |||
Place the PAGENAME of the incident in the header. | |||
== ] and persistant ], ], and ]-failing articles == | |||
Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header. | |||
{{atop|This section has been stale for a few days and was at the top of ANI (i.e. the oldest un-archived post) and about to be automatically archived without action. I find consensus for an indefinite (not infinite, you may appeal your restriction at ] if you can create some articles through AfC that demonstrate a better understanding of the policies) ban from creating articles in main space against ]. They may only create articles using the AfC process. This editing restriction will be logged at ]. ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
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] has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of ] and ] seems to be lacking substantially. | |||
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* was deleted for ] | |||
== ] and long term disruption of ] == | |||
{{archive top|result=Martinvl is placed under a topic ban from measurements for 1 year to include all articles, talk pages, and every namespace. Appeals may be made to ] or ] but otherwise any mention of measurements or editing involving measurements may be treated with blocks of escalating lengths. The only exception being explicit source quotations in article-space. I have fully reviewed Martinvl's counter claim of vote stacking and determined that his evidence failed to meet the threshold. Users filing ANI complaints are required to notify ''direct participants'' in the current dispute brought to ANI. Not participants in prior disputes that may have an interest. I further believe that Martinvl has had ample opportunity (9 days) to defend himself here.--v/r - ]] 17:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
Current discussions of relevance: | |||
* on ] and ] grounds | |||
] | |||
] | |||
] | |||
* on ] and ] | |||
Like many users I am tired of being dragged into a ridiculous argument I simply do not care about. However, ]'s obsession with convincing[REDACTED] to remove any preference for imperial measurements on UK articles is now becoming utterly disruptive. It has been forum shopped in numerous places and the latest RFC is simply gaming the system. | |||
*They've been warned about ] and . | |||
I urge that a community sanction be considered banning ] from any and all discussions related to ]. I cannot perceive of any productive discussion, whilst he is present. ] <small>]</small> 15:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*] which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in ) | |||
:I notice that ] has let a number of people know about this debate , and . While it is appropriate to inform "''Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article''" about a particular posting, ] insists that "''the audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions''". I look forward to Wee Curry Monster notifying everybody associated with the debate. ] (]) 15:34, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Whatever shortcomings WCM may have made in this notice Martinvl, nothing excuses the incivility you showed in the UK discussion along with your ] attitude at it. I don't think anyone in the UK article dispute article can stand up for your actions no-one backed you up as far as I could tell and at least 3 editors including me and WCM backed calls or where thinking of reporting you for your disruptive comments, accusations, and failure to even acknowledge your fault and apologise for it, all of which equate to bad faith and antagonistic behaviour. Even with everyone notified, nothing excuses your behaviour at that talk page never mind what appears to be an never-ending campaign against Imperial measurements on this site. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Now that Martin has asked WCM to notify a wider group of editors, then sadly I must express my view that WCM is correct to describe Martin's contributions as disruptive. As time has gone by Martin's attitude and actions have got closer and closer to the stubbornness of his old adversary DeFacto, with an equally destructive effect on the community, and unfortunately he has refused to accept that consensus does not necessarily mean unanimity, and he has continued to act as if he has a veto on any agreement. I agree with WCM that it now appears that nothing less than a topic ban will suffice, and I fear that it needs to be wider than merely ], because I am convinced that he would continue his pro-metrication campaign elsewhere, such as his recent attempt to move the debate to ] now that he has seen that he won't convince people at ]. - ] (]) 17:32, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I am (very) involved here, having borne the brunt of this campaign for far longer than most, so I won't say much unless others ask me to. But I will add my support to the comments by David Biddulph and others and call for such a topic ban to be enacted. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 17:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*I am heavily involved in this matter at this point, though I never intended to be. I've tried to negotiate the tense line between the two camps of editors on this issue. I've tried to be accommodating to Martin and others. Furthermore, it was I who suggested that a discussion at UKGEO be held. However, despite all of my good faith efforts I am now convinced that Martin's behavior is both repetitive and out-of-line. He will stop at nothing to continue his campaign, and if one gives him even a sliver of leeway, as I did, he will take it as a go-ahead to open a biased and heavily skewed RfC to implement metric units on a broad basis. He has even gone so far as to quote me in attempt to justify his own position, skewing what he's known I've said. It is quite clear that he cannot move beyond his own position, and can't think outside of it. Overall, I endorse the comments that are above me. ] — ] 18:34, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
As a result of ] making , the debate in question on ] spilled over onto ]. Two parrallel debates ranged, one on each page - hardly conducive to getting a consensus. Editors on both pages were involved in the debate, but I notice that Wee Curry Monster has only circulated those editors who contributed to the debate on the ] page, not those who contributed on the ] page. I look forward to him contacting everybody who was involved in the debate on both pages. ] (]) 22:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*I do not want to comment on personalities. However, I must state that the atmosphere on MOSNUM when it comes to discussing units of measure is incredibly polarised. It is also fair to state that while I prefer metric measures, I acknowledge the split use of both metric and imperial measures in the UK. I can't say I am aware of anything that Martin has written that I find objectionable. I can see nothing objectionable in this or this or this or this or this . That includes edits that Martin has made in the last 50 edits on MOSNUM talk. Going back further I could see nothing objectionable in Martin's edit here or here or here . In the last 500 edits on MOSNUM talk, Martin made 36. This is more than some but less than others so I can't see that this is excessive. (Another contributor made 99 of the last 500 edits!) There are complaints, but no diffs to back them up. As Martin appears to put his point of view without rancour, I can't understand how this complaint can be sustained. ] (]) 02:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I've participated in this debate, why didn't Wee Curry Monster notify me? Michael's figures just above don't seem to justify a ban, or at least not just banning one contributor. What happens if we ban him? Does the discussion go away? ] (]) 09:41, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Plenty of articles containing only one source ], ], ], ], ], ] | |||
I fear that this case may have to go to ArbCom eventually, as it has been going on for years. --''']]]''' 09:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Most recently there's ], which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted. | |||
I have now checked Martin's contribution to . Martin made a proposal, other editors opposed it and he clarified what he intended. Once again, one person disagreed and others made comments about the measurement situation in the UK. At no time did Martin write anything objectionable there. I think it is perfectly in order for an editor to make a proposal. On the basis on what is written there the complaint cannot be sustained. ] (]) 10:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. ] but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to ] someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a ] article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. ] 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
In the third place there was a nasty spat between editors that followed an edit or edits that Martin opposed. Without going into details or trying to take sides, there did seem to be a genuine misunderstanding here and this led to several editors getting quite annoyed with Martin. As a result, everyone became hypersensitive to perceived slights. I think it must be stated that Martin appeared to be in a minority of one in his request that the article be returned to what it was before. I think he genuinely believed that the ''status quo ante'' should have been restored. However, this was not what happened, and now that several editors have given their opinions, there appears to be no chance for the article to be changed back. It is hard to take when people who had not previously edited an article come along and change it, but in this case they had the numbers and also MOSNUM on their side. | |||
I |
:Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. ] ] 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
::I checked this ] which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Late addendum, but it looks like the user in question was tagged by a research team on their talk page as possibly using AI to edit, which would track with the article writing vs content quality if it's the case. ] 12:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. ] (]) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::AI detection methods are so faulty that I’m 100% willing to accept this as truth. Sorry about that. ] 19:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised: | |||
:*1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "]," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated. | |||
:*2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources. | |||
:*3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory. | |||
:*4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. | |||
:*5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information. | |||
:*6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality. | |||
:*7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them. | |||
:Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "]". ] (]) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{tq|I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.}} | |||
::I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between ] and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself. | |||
::{{tq|I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.}} | |||
::Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails ] doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass ] and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example | |||
::{{tq|A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".}} | |||
::I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have ] issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass ] before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. ] 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that ''is'' in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. ] 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:No offence Michael Glass but "to be a genuine misunderstanding here and this led to several editors getting quite annoyed with Martin" seems quite skewed to overlook Martinvl's behaviour at the UK article discussion where they make at least two false accusations of one editor being a hypocrite and then that I suppossedly implied it, as well as stating that I had no right to leave a response and that it was "unsolicited". Hardly a genuine misunderstanding. | |||
* Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the ] policy. I propose and '''support''' a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating ], they gain that necessary understanding/competence. ] (]) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Martinvl stated that if ] is suggesting a certain situation then they must be a hypocrite . | |||
* '''SUPPORT''' ban from article creation. ] ] 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*In that same edit Martinvl starts trying to be a smart-alack towards me making idiotic assumptions and adopting a quite condescending tone. I retorted in kind but without being condescending. , though a revision later I added to my lip back, after which I retracted my acknowledgement that Martinvl was correct and added a bit more lip . I then left a personal message on ] talk page stating that I would desist from responding like a smart-ass if they did so in kind. As a sign of good faith I then striked my smartass retorts except the one in regards to being English . It should be noted Martinvl did not respond to this. | |||
* '''Support''' a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* DDStretch requests Martinvl retract their hypocrite allegation as they see it as a personal attack. Martinvl would only apologise for calling DDStretch the wrong name. Despite that things seem to calm down and responses are mostly on topic. | |||
*'''Support''' article creation ban. ] (]) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Despite the fact Martinvl is blatantly ignoring ] and arguing that the article is reverted to his preferred version per ] despite the fact it violates ] until a consensus is reached (despite the fact he was the only editor who backed his stance), they decide to restore their preferred version with this as their reasoning. This is the instance where they blatantly distort ]'s comment (which RGloucester) responds to here ). In response ] responds on this distortion of ]'s comment and Martinvl's ignoring of what a consensus is. Martinvl keeps arguing that ] should apply as it would restore the article to their preferred version which violates ]. ] then comments in response to the "no consensus" argument of Martinvl's disagreeing with them , and then comments on Martinvl's behaviour . | |||
*] points out that Martinvl has still not retracted or apologized for his hypocrite comment. In response Martinvl tries to defend himself by stating "'' I was accusing ] of implying that you were a hypocrite by twisting what you had said. Please re-read the comments and you will see that my comment was directed at Mabuska, not you''" - though a reread of his comment clearly shows it was directed at Ddstretch and nowhere did he say he was implying me. I responded angrily and respost the comments that involve me, DDStretch and Martinvl . I also ask that they withdraw their false accusation against me, and getting quite annoyed . I followed up with a suggestion for Martinvl to just apologise and drop the issue and then we can go our own way. | |||
*Ddstretch responds to Martinvl and then Martinvl responds where they state '''''You should have let DDStretch answer for himself and not butted in'''. If you strike the unsolicited pre-emptive answer that you made on behalf of DDStretch, I will strike out my response to you and DDStretch can then explain himself as originally requested.''. Now I don't know about you but I take "not butted in" as a personal attack, also add in they say that my comment is '''unsolicited'''. | |||
*Ddstretch responds to Martinvl about their failure to apologise and withdraw , whilst stating there is nothing wrong with me "butting in". Martinvl then tries to argue on making a false accusation that WCM was bringing an edit-war to the article (despite the fact WCM only made '''one edit'''), to which WCM commented . From this point 4 editors (including myself) make comments about some form of action against Martinvl possibly being neccessary: , , , and . | |||
:Having said that in my last comment, I notice WCM suggested an RFC/U not an AN/I. | |||
:Since then Martinvl took it upon himself keep being uncivil by moving ]'s comment to an entirely different section of the related discussion , which ] raised at Martinvl's ]. | |||
:In regards to the actual UK article itself, I only became involved in the discussion as I saw that Martinvl reverted an edit by WCM, and after a brief foray into the Falkland Islands articles a while back, and recently backing the continuation of WCM's topic-ban in regards to those islands, I recognized Martinvl as being active with WCM in the past and believed that Martinvl may have been hounding WCM. Had another editor made the edit originally, it is quite possible that Martinvl wouldn't have noticed or got involved. | |||
:This editor deserves some form of censure for their behaviour and failure to apologise and withdraw their accusations whilst trying to wriggle away from it. They have instilled nothing but bad faith and distrust for me and no doubt others in regards to this editor. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*'''Comment:''' While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. ]. ] 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I have witnessed Martinvl's conduct in this area myself, briefly (). I have never ''ever'' seen an argument about the merits of metric versus imperial measurements that did not end in high drama, warfare and bloodshed. I don't think that this needs to go to ArbCom ''just yet'', but a topic ban might suffice. With that in mind, I would like to propose that '''Martinvl is topic-banned from all edits and discussions related to units of measurement, broadly construed'''. Who agrees? ] ] ] 14:09, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*:Hello, I think the issue might have been with the article describing the events as "course of hostilities" which could make it seem like it was a continuous conflict. I've fixed that to make it clear now. ] (]) 18:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hat|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
:*'''Support''' Ban. | |||
:] (]) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with ]. ] (]) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored. | |||
::I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. ] (]) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! ] (]) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. ] 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I dunno. ] (]) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. ] (]) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{hab}} | |||
*'''Comment''' I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: ]. There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) ] (]) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' This is editor is still creating dog poor articles ]. This is the second in days thats been speedied. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. ] ] 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== Me (DragonofBatley) == | |||
:I don't. This ANI discussion is about prolonged debates over which units of measurement should be used in Misplaced Pages articles. WCM's proposal is to restrict those debates. Ritchie333's proposal goes far beyond WCM's and would deprive us of Martinvl's contributions to articles that are specifically about units of measurement. ] (]) 15:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save {{Ping|KJP1}} the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. ] (]) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I can only speak to behaviour at ], which is the subject of this complaint. | |||
:Notifying other editors from the wider discussions {{Ping|PamD}}, {{Ping|Noswall59}}, {{Ping|Rupples}}, {{Ping|Crouch, Swale}}, {{Ping|KeithD}}, {{Ping|SchroCat}}, {{Ping|Tryptofish}}, {{Ping|Cremastra}} and {{Ping|Voice of Clam}}. If I missed anyone else sorry ] (]) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
This is above all a content dispute. It started when an IP editor (with no apparent or suspected connection with anyone else) raised the issue of why imperial units were still used. Several editors later raised concerns that the current text of the guideline might be too broad or too unclear in its recommendation of imperial units as primary units in certain UK-related contexts (such as non-road distances and weights of sportspeople) and adduced valid arguments to support their positions; it is the behaviour in dealing with this content dispute at ] that is the subject of this complaint. | |||
:Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: ]. ] ] 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Based on the discussion at ], I don't think I would lay failure to engage in a constructive, evidence-based discussion of the issue at Martinvl's door. I do not think raising an RfC should be regarded as forum shopping. An RfC is a normal part of dispute resolution, and there was a specific recommendation to clarify this issue (and possibly some others) in the relevant projects, because some editors felt that they would be more competetent to clarify actual usage. The wording of the RfC could, perhaps, have been more neutral, but I see nothing egregiously objectionable that would warrant sanctions. I think it might be appropriate to post a message at ] encouraging all editors to assume good faith, refrain from questioning others' motives, engage in constructive discussion, and use the usual methods (e.g. straw polls, RfCs) to clarify the different opinions and move the discussion forward in a constructive and efficient manner. —] (]) 14:50, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of ], ], ] and now redirected ] and ]. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. ] (]) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*While I respect both Boson and Michael Glass, I do not agree with their statements here. Martin has taken advantage of good faith, even if his tone is not one of "rancor". In multiple attempts to forge a compromise, I've tried to reach out to Martin. Each time, he's taken my words and skewed them. For example, with regard to the RfC. I suggest that a discussion be had at UKGEO, whereby Martin should see what editors there thought. Then, I thought it should be brought back to MOSNUM and discussed. Of course, there is nothing technically wrong with Martin's opening of the RfC, however, he did so on the basis of my comments, and essentially used them as justification for RfC to introduce solely metric units for geographic uses, which has been heavily opposed. The fact that Martin either cannot or refuses to understand what others are saying in attempts to compromise makes discussing with Martin almost impossible. Mabuska quoted an instance where Martin selectively took words I had said, himself having participated in the debate, and used them to justify edit warring at ]. He intentionally skewed my words, despite knowing that my opinion was not expressed by them. Sure, his tone is not one of "rancor", however an editor that takes advantage of good faith to push his own POV, that does not try to compromise and that does not listen to what others are saying for the sake of pushing his own POV is a severe detriment to the discussion, and makes it almost impossible to make progress. It is this disruption that I believe is being brought up here, not his "technical" wrongs. ] — ] 15:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. ] (]) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Also this discussion: ]. ] (]/]) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on. | |||
:I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. ] is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, ''then'' we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions. | |||
:I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to ] and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends. | |||
:Happy editing, <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --] (]) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing ] (]) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::@]: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? ] (]/]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? ] (]) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as ]. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. ] (]/]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? ] (]/]) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. ] (]) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. ] (]) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. ''']''' (]) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. ] (]) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::These are good points. | |||
:::However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI''-like'' thing may be in order. ], anyone? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course ] is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? ] (]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. ] (]/]) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break ] and ]. ] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add ] (]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::{{ec}} The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I think it's the latter. @]: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. ] (]/]) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. ] (]) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. ''']''' (]) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::Yeah, I agree to that. @] if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to ] but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? ] (]) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::] is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in ]. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely ]. ''']''' (]) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC ] (]) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? ] ] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. ] (]) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? ] ] 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? ] (]/]) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::@]: while you're taking a breather as @] suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? ] (]/]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::], ], ] (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example ] and ]. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for ] and the ]. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. ] (]) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? ] (]/]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near ]. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the ] commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings ] (]) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- ] (]) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*DragonofBatley has agreed to a ] to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? ] (]/]) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --] (]) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? ] (]) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. ] (]/]) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. ''']''' (]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. ] (]/]) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --] (]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- ] (]) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::{{outdent|0}} Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. ] (]/]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --] (]) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? ] (]/]) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*@]: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? ] (]/]) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for ]. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. ] (]) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see '''any''' new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. ] (]/]) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::{{ec}} {{u|KJP1}} has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - ] (]) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you ]. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. ] (]) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the ]erifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? ] (]/]) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::{{ec}} Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - ] (]) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. ] (]) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). {{u|KJP1}} provided a for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - ] (]) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they ''understand'' source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. ] ] 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::::That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements ''and'' that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - ] (]) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::::That's a great point, you're right, @]. ] ] 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::::I responded to @] earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with ] ] and ]. Also conflict edit was not directed at @], there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. ] (]) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's ] was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from ] and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing. | |||
*:::And also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. ]] 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{outdent}} | |||
The issues are ] and source integrity; ]; and the suggestion of ] while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability. | |||
Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, ], which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises ] issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC. | |||
Whilst I have nothing against Martinvl creating sub-sections for admins and the result of this discussion, personally I find it quite condescending for Martinvl to dictate what they are for when it is obvious, almost as if none of us have a clue. | |||
That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. ] (]) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Regardless of that, any admin looking at this discussion will see that not once does Martinvl make mention of or try to defend his behaviour, instead focusing on trying to wriggle out of this AN/I by having it "thrown out" on technicalities in regards to WCM's posting of this AN/I. Yes Martinvl says they will mount a defence if this case isn't thrown out, but they shouldn't have to stall like this is they are as vindicated as they seem to believe they are. Martinvl has questions to answer in regards to their behaviour, especially at the UK article, and they are purposely avoiding them focusing on trying to get this "thrown out". Pure and simple gaming of the system. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:''"To date he does not appear to have taken any notice of my request."'' - pretty much like yourself in regards to Ddstretch and my requests for an apology from you? ] <sup>]</sup> 20:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --] (]) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I'd like to draw attention to , in which Martin edit wars to close an RFC that he opened, with a closing summary that I believe does not reflect the consensus there. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 20:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. ] (]) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on ] quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on ]. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ] feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. ] (]) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*This is getting even more absurd as it goes on. With what essentially amounts to bad faith behavior with the closing of the UKGEO RfC, with the attempt to sidestep the issue and focus on technicalities, with bizarre division of this thread into subsections…it demonstrates that the message just is not getting through. I really wish I wasn't a part of any of this nonsense. There is nothing good to be had out of any of it, and it only continues to get worse. I wish an admin would step in. If not to explain to Martin the issue, to at least close the discussion at MOSNUM, and prevent it from spiraling out of control. ] — ] 20:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in ], ] and ]. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. ] (]) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::FWIW I've asked Martin on his talk to reconsider the move, and intend to take it to review per ] if he does not. If I do, I will (if I remember) mention that I brought it up here but that it got lost in a large piece of text. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 06:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::@]. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. ] (]) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I think it should be made clear that there is no problem with ending the RfC ''per se''. The problem is with the summary explaining the reason. The RfC should be ended with the explanation "Withdrawn by poster". As ] explains:<blockquote>"There are several ways that RfCs end: the question may be withdrawn by the poster (e.g., if the community's response became obvious very quickly), the RfC participants can agree to end it, it can be formally closed by any uninvolved editor, or it may be moved to another dispute resolution forum, such as mediation. Most RfCs do not benefit from formal closure."</blockquote> | |||
::::::@], the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. ] (]/]) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::--] (]) 11:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. ] (]) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I'm not sure of the value of ANI pile-ons, and the broader situation may be better suited to a User RFC, but (having been asked to comment here) I'd happily put on record my view that Martin's behaviour at the UK article was, basically, disruptive and a waste of WP space and editor time, including his own. He edit-warred to excise reference to miles in clear violation of consensus on that page, real-world usage in the UK and the MOS and sparked off a huge talk page thread. Most rational people working in a collaborative environment, when every single other person disagrees with them, especially over something so trivial, will drop their crusade. Some, of course won't – and will even go so far as to insist their personal alternative view must prevail, because their unilateral opposition to the more obviously correct option means that there is supposedly "no consensus" for the latter. Implicitly accusing another editor of being a "hypocrite" didn't help either (nor did his rather transparent attempts to rationalise that attack and, indeed, bizarrely shift the blame for it to yet another editor). That said, polite POV-pushing, activist agendas and time-wasting sophistry are all common enough on WP, even if arguably more pernicious than some types of more immediately obvious disruptive behavior. <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 21:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @] or @]. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @] and @]'s earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. ] (]) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::It looks to me as if Martinvl's basic ] is well-evidenced in the section below this ], in which he tries to ] the section by intimidation: "This section is for the use of Martinvl. If anybody else posts here, I will delete their posts." Such an attitude is hardly conducive to collegial and collaborative co-operation. I suggest to Martinvl that he should do some deep-thinking about his relationship to the Misplaced Pages community, and commit himself to some radical attitude adjustment before he is topic banned or indeffed. ] (]) 04:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the ] and ] concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —] (]) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
:As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban. | |||
Martinvl is not a team player. He is unwilling or unable to accept or even consider any views on articles related to measurement systems which conflict with his hard line. He disrespects editors with contradictory views, dismissing their edits and contributions with short shrift. He often gets involved in protracted arguments, due to his inability to compromise or accept fault, and has a list of warnings and admonishments as long your arm on ]. He has a superiority complex, typified by his actions at ]; with first , pushing 3 of his own articles into inappropriate and unduly prominent positions in a widely used template, then warring ,, each time his attempts at promoting his own articles was thwarted. Attempts to get him to discuss his changes are difficult and his arguments are arrogant and as if he has a veto on article and template contents. He has no qualms about gaming, lawyering. He is bad at providing justifying logic for his pushes, probably because there is none - other than his desire to see his opinions and his articles prevail. All in all an arrogant and difficult editor to coexist with. His inability to accept anything other than the metric system dogma that he seems to worship makes him unsuitable to edit measurement system related articles in an environment that relies on consensus, coexistence and good faith. ] (]) 19:47, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done. | |||
:Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above. | |||
I am involved. I didn't want to contribute to this discussion, because I had already realised that Martinvl's mode of operation when challenged on[REDACTED] is often to resort to disruptive POV-pushing. He uses game-playing and wiki-lawyering to deflect any discussion away from the confrontation of his own behaviour into trivial technical issues that he uses in an attempt to have dismissed any and all concerns about his own behaviour. He also uses unjustifiable highly biased and skewed descriptions of others' actions, and distorts people's previous statements to his own ends. He makes implied personal attacks, and seem to think he can bargain them away when the correct course of action for any of us who do this (and we are all at risk of doing so when things become heated) is to immediately apologize and withdraw them unreservedly and sort out anything else after the apology and withdrawal has happened. He edit wars (he reverted 6 times on AN/I for instance). He doesn't do what we all should do. You can find all the evidence that backs up my ideas about him in the postings of other interested parties already in this thread. | |||
:For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, <b>this needs to be a final warning</b> in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -] (]) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I thought a better use of my time would be to walk away and disengage, and to try to increase my productive work on[REDACTED] by writing content and to stay away from unnecessary drama on here or elsewhere. However, what has happened after Martinvl tried to impose the structure on this thread in AN/I, and who could post to bits of it, changed all that. Either by complete lack of insight, or by being over-arrogant, Martinvl spectacularly condemns himself in almost all of his postings to this thread as well as the comments he makes on his own talk page just before his 48 hour block, and certainly afterwards ( https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AMartinvl&diff=577840954&oldid=577439188 ). They have shown me that he cannot restrain a completely unacceptable bundle of behaviour and actions on his part that are completely at odds with key principles of how editors should interact on wikipedia. These actions are the hallmark of someone who believes he is '''battling for THE TRUTH''' as he sees it, someone who seems unwilling to work collaboratively and to accept compromise, and so they seem to be the actions of a kind of fanatic who would be unsuited to be an editor on wikipedia. I speak as someone who actually believes we should work more towards using the metric system in articles, but who completely accepts the compromise and collaborative nature required for good work between editors on wikipedia. As I have said before, we all have to accept that we must make compromises, that consensus does not mean unanimity, and that we will sometimes be in a minority position that we must gracefully abandon and defer easily to enable progress to be made. As Karl Popper once wrote "You may be right, and I may be wrong, and by an effort, we may closer to the truth." Sadly, I can see no signs that Martinvl shares much of this in his actions and behaviour in this current dispute. He appears to be condescending, over-aggressive, and even domineering in his attempots to control other editors' behaviours, especially, it seems, if he thinks these editors disagree with his own position. | |||
::Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? ] (]/]) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —] (]) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at ].) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, ]. {{U|PamD}} stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular {{U|Crouch, Swale}}. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point ] has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.) | |||
Whether Martinvl can be persuaded away from this destructive path on[REDACTED] is up to him, but I originally sincerely believed and hoped he could, because his potential use to the project could be very great. I doubt that now. His 6 reversions of the structure he imposed, and his arrogant behaviour towards the admins who have managed this AN/I thread just backup and illustrate the problems all the other editors critical of him have already mentioned. I did wonder whether to be highly critical of Martinvl's behaviour, yet suggest that he should be required, if possible, to work with a mentor to help him understand the more collaborative way that working on[REDACTED] entails. I really do not think that would work unless we see immediate and hopeful signs of a change in behaviour '''now''' from Martinvl on his return from his 48 hour block. I would have thought that he would have stopped digging his self-destructive hole, climbed out, and made the necessary assurances and promises to behave better once the shock of a 48 hour block happened. Instead, we see even more desperate arguments being deployed to, once again, attempt to deflect any argument away from examining '''his''' problematic behaviour by raising technical issues to have any examination of his behaviour thrown out. This is how he tried to deal with his failure to stop consensus on ] over the use of imperial or metric units in the article. These technical issues are either bogus or of no practical effect on anything realistic here. In other words, they are extreme examples of game-playing and wiki-lawyering. This is now, I think, symptomatic of all his behaviour because he seems unable to stop doing it even in the face of action taken against him by uninvolved administrators on AN/I. Instead, he is pouring oil on his own fire. Therefore, I realistically think that some way needs to be found of dealing with Martinvl. If he cannot reform, then either he decides to stop editing or wikipedia, by some mechanism, protects itself from his future disruption, because I am sure that, unless radical change in his behaviour happens, the problems will happen again and may intensify to the detriment of all. I do not know whether this can be done via AN/I, and I wish my involvement in this waste-of-time drama to decrease. I am fed up of all this unnecessary drama over ultimately trivial issues that are already allowed by ] and ]. ] ] 09:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: '] is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with : he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here. | |||
* Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content calling it "irrelevant". At ], PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article ], , cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, ], the entire Architecture section was . However, their church articles always contain something like {{tq|The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.}} sourced to ''achurchnearyou.com'', often as a separate "Present day" section. of ] (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: {{tq|All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.}} (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing ] and ], both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.) | |||
* Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as , was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.) | |||
* Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles. | |||
There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note {{U|Liz}} has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that ] instance (at the end of , which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. ] (]) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: I should clarify that my involvement is confined totally and entirely to my actions on ] in trying to stop an edit-war Martinvl was involved in and the subsequent attempt to suggest what consensus was. This led to implied personal attacks against myself and my actions from Martinvl that I broadly construed as making me involved, and therefore, in my own opinion, precluded me from taking any administrative action against further behaviour. However, one of his replies (alluded to in other editor's message, above) suggested that if I had decided in Martinvl's opnion's favour, then all would have been well to him. This is just my own opinion about involvement. ] ] 10:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. ] (]/]) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I'd like to point to ]: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. ] (]) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly). | |||
::I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at ] and ], and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: ]. | |||
::I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing. | |||
::Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for ], which is also the example of a lead in ], starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{tl|cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice. | |||
::Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor. | |||
::The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, ] (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material). | |||
::It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations. | |||
::Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. ]] 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --] (]) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work === | |||
::I request that this accusation be dismissed without comment by the closing administratgor out on grounds of ]. If the closing admin is not willing to do so, please let me know and I will then mount a defence to rebut the accusations against me. | |||
I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. ] (]/]) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::In particular the accusations cover '''three''' discussions. Shortly after ] opened this section, he informed , and of this section. After I , he notified another four editors, all of whom had contributed to the debate at ]. He did not contact anybody who contributed to either of the other discussions but did not contribute to ]. I about vote-stacking. To date he does not appear to have taken any notice of my request. | |||
::] (]) 05:21, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I've got some experience of ] investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. ] (]) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Q.E.D. Once again, an attempt to dismiss any and all concerns of his behaviour by employing a tactic that has been dealt with already on his talk page (referred to already) in raising a bogus technical issue. The hole becomes deeper. ] ] 08:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I am an interested editor. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*May I kindly suggest, Martin, that instead of beating a dead horse with regard to vote-stacking, an issue which administrators have dismissed, you try and respond to some of the concerns voiced here. This would be more productive, and is more likely to result in a positive outcome for everyone involved, including you. At yet, you have not justified your actions in any way, nor have you even acknowledgedwhy many editors have concerns with your behavior with regard to units, and with regard to this ANI thread. ] — ] 18:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --] (]) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. ]] 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/] in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --] (]) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —] (]) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
::::::::To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @] has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. ] (]) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the ]. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. ] (]) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks ] (]) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? ]] 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there ] (]) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{outdent}} | |||
{{U|voorts}} - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. ] (]) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. ''Sound of evil laughter.'') --] (]) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:How's this draft proposal: {{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace<ins>, converting redirects to articles,</ins> or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects. | |||
::Having seen on ] yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing. | |||
::And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. ]] 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. ] (]/]) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. ] (]) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - ] (]) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: an infobox? a few words about local authority area? a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. ]] 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to ], never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. ]] 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Thanks for the question ]. To clarify, I meant '''any''' expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing ''anywhere'' on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - ] (]) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " ]] 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --] (]) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Okay, looks good. @] what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::{{U|Cremastra}} - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. ] (]) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Hold on. This goes much further than @] wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? ] (]) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at ]. I've lost patience. ]] 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested: | |||
:::::::::::::# No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects | |||
:::::::::::::# No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?) | |||
:::::::::::::# No editing in mainspace. | |||
:::::::::::::]] 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.{{pb}}{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):{{pb}} | |||
::'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC. | |||
::'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded. | |||
::'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles. | |||
:{{pb}}The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but '''would personally favour Option B'''. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into ], a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. ] (]) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::@]: I made some changes. ] (]/]) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. ] (]) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::p.s. ] this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. ] (]) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? ] (]) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. ] (]) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I agree. ] (]) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::@] and @]: option C amended below. ] (]/]) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? ]] 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. ] (]/]) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s) === | |||
**Martin: This contribution is offered to you, in public, in this thread to try to help you see that there is a better way to proceed. Please understand that this is an effort to help you. As RGloucester also advised you, please pay more attention to your own behaviour here. I will quote some of what I wrote, above now. I urge you to read it carefully and consider if you can do what it advises. I think it would help defuse this situation somewhat: "I would have thought that he would have <nowiki></nowiki> made the necessary assurances and promises to behave better once the shock of a 48 hour block happened." If you can do this, then I think you should try to voluntarily call upon wikipedia's mentoring service (details at ]) to help you avoid this drama in the future. ] ] 04:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{cot|Proposal jumped the gun, no consensus.}} | |||
{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s): | |||
:'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC. | |||
:'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to oppose a PROD. | |||
:'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except: (1) to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded; (2) to comment in AfD discussions or to oppose PRODs or CSDs regarding those articles; or (3) to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles. | |||
The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{collapsetop|Moot. ] (]) 09:48, 23 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
===A note to the Misplaced Pages community=== | |||
I archived the sections below this, ], ] and ], all created by Martinvl, with the comment: <blockquote>NAC: I know of no policy or precedent on Misplaced Pages that allows an editor under examination on AN/I to create a new section in order to attempt to control its format and content. This is a '''''community''''' discussion, and not your talk page, so I suggest you allow the community to decide how it wants to go about organizing the discourse. ] (]) 04:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)</blockquote> When Martinvl removed my archive wrapper, I restored it with the additional note: <blockquote>Restored after removal by Martinvl. And now I will impose my own conditions: '''''<u>any</u>''''' editor '''''except Martinvl''''' is free to unarchive this. That will help ensure that the removal is a community-based one. ] (]) 06:22, 18 October 2013 (UTC)</blockquote> As might be expected, Martinvl removed it again. I have no intention of restoring it yet again, but I did want the community to know of these actions on Martinvl's part, which appear to me to be antithetical to the process of free and open community discussion. Martinvl, whom I have never come across before, does not seem to exhibit the necessary collegiality and collaborative spirit that make Misplaced Pages possible. He seesm, instead, to want to control anything that concerns himself or the subjects he prefers to edit in. Such a personality is not a good match for this project. ] (]) 06:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I suggest that future commenters ignore Martinvl's sections below and continue to use the section above this for discussion of his behavior, or create a new section below his for continuation of the discussion. ] (]) 06:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
==== Uninvolved editors ==== | |||
{{od}} I have blocked Martinvl for 48 hours for repeated disruption at the ANI thread. ]] 11:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose all'''. I would have voted '''Option B''', but the user demonstated enough maturity and self-criticism, meaning he's willing to improve his long-term contribution. Moreover, even if it could have been embarrassing to admit, he also cared enough to inform us he's on the ], and as a ] myself, I know that's hard. My two cents go to {{u|DragonofBatley}}. You're welcome! ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Proposal''': Could we maybe allow DoB to continue editing mainspace if, and only if, any additions/edits they make are supported by a reference, to which the quote that supports the edit must be added. That will make it easier for us to double check their work and allow DoB to refine their skills in supporting their edits.] (]) 10:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Is that metric hours or imperial hours? ] (]) 13:57, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I believe that the correct answer to that question is ]. {{unsigned|RGloucester}} | |||
:::You ''are'' kidding, right? ] (]) | |||
:::Of course, hours aren't ] either. ] (]) 15:47, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I was being deadly serious. In fact, I propose that Misplaced Pages metricate all blocks: the appropriate expression of time for Martin's block being 172800s. ] — ] 22:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::172.8 ], surely? '']'' <small>'']''</small> 17:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Yes! Believe it or not, that was addressed on my talk page. ] — ] 18:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archivetop|result=No, AN/I does not work this way. Just say what you want to say in regular ol' threaded conversation above. <small>]</small> 10:16, 18 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
=== |
==== Involved editors ==== | ||
:{{ping|KJP1|Cremastra|Rupples|PamD|DragonofBatley|Crouch, Swale|SchroCat|Tryptofish|Noswall59|p=.}} (Apologies if I missed anyone.) ] (]/]) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''This section is for the use of Martinvl. If anybody else posts here, I will delete their posts. You are welcome to post in the section ]. For my own part, I will ensure that everything that I write is well cross-referenced.''' | |||
*'''Support''' option A as proposed for 6 months. I think its quite clear that that is needed given as noted the burden this might have on AFC but I'm willing to consider allowing some AFC say 1 article a week but I think it might be better to wait until the cleanup has been done the they have demonstrated the ability to create suitable articles. I would say it would be fine for DragonofBatley to ask KJP1 or Cremastra or another experienced user (if they explain their restrictions) to move drafts they have created to mainspace but I would not suggest they do that until the cleanup has been completed. I would also '''support''' option B I would consider allowing an appeal of only 2 or 3 months as this restriction is much more restrictive but I think given as noted by PamD their problems with editing existing articles this might well be helpful especially since if they can't create new articles I'd expect a shift towards the problems with existing articles. '''Oppose''' option C as (1) I'm not aware of problems outside mainspace and (2) I think in any case this would be too restrictive at least for 6 months, if C is done I'd at least support allowing appeal after 2 or 3 months. So in summary I think option B plus 1 article through AFC every week or every other week would be the best option but I don't have a strong opinion. ''']''' (]) 19:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose all''', as written. Sorry, this has changed from what I could support. First, in the draft version that I suggested, I had the word "successfully" in the sentence that mentions KJP1 and Cremastra: "only if DragonofBatley successfully participates...". That's important. The coordinators will need to evaluate whether or not he "got the message", not just whether he made some token effort, and their evaluation needs to have a meaningful role in the consideration of an appeal. I definitely cannot support A, because I think his mainspace editing needs to be restricted to fixing his mistakes. Anything less does not comport with the facts as we have them. As for B and C, I agree with participation in AfD, but that's in project space, not mainspace. I think objecting to PRODs or CSDs is not worth allowing. C comes closest to how I feel, but I don't feel that we need to make formal restrictions of his editing outside of mainspace. He should be able to communicate on his talk page and user page, without being restricted, and he should probably be able to comment on talk pages of articles. --] (]) 23:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''C''' if anything. (Again, wasn't pinged, but I have been a bit involved.) DragonofBatley keeps demonstrating borderline lack of competence. Most recently inserting one of his collages into an FA (I'd forgotten he also added collages) and getting the captions wrong. The clarity and correctness of the posting here is also at or below the standard we should expect for a participant in a writing project: {{tq| If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree.}} I don't trust their judgement on what is an improvement to an article; and how far should we stretch to try to accommodate someone who needs so many curbs and guiderails? I deeply appreciate the willingness of other editors to help them with the task of cleaning up their articles (as well as all the time and effort some editors have already expended trying to advise and help them); I recognise that there are legitimately differing views on some of what they like to do, such as the collages; but I'd rather see them restricted to their user talk and user space, workshopping the article fixes there. (Note: Several of the 400 or so articles have already been fixed, like the churches I worked on. The task is less massive than it may seem.) ] (]) 03:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Prefer''' the less stringent '''option A''' because I’d like to see self-motivation from DragonofBatley to assist with the clean-up. OK with adding "successfully" to the option. It is disappointing that Dragon has recently made errors on ], all the more so it being a featured article, and it did lead me to consider supporting a ‘tougher’ restriction. Whatever is decided, it would be unreasonable for Dragon to be bombarded with too many queries over a short space of time; in particular, AfD nominations should be staggered. Dragon’s articles are on encyclopedic topics; though it looks a fair few will be merged or redirected because of marginal notability. After a very brief review, it seems the use of erroneous citations is mostly a recent phenomenon (last three months or so). Note the increased pace of Dragon’s article creation from September 2024. ] (]) 12:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:That's interesting, even though they have been using this account since March 2020 over half of their articles are less than 6 months old, I'd consider only reviewing those less than 6 months old (at least for now) as those older have likely been improved but I guess there's no harm and might well be best. ''']''' (]) 19:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:"Oppose further restrictions such as editing articles, workspace and general edits". I have no issues with proposals but I would oppose being restricted from making general edits such as updating infoboxs like I did with ] and ]. I updated them with photos and infoboxs. Yeah I made a couple of questionable edits on Holme Lacy but that article needed some updating since it was slightly written with some questionable wording like it calling Holme Lacy a town which it never has been but flew under editors radars for decades. I also added new collages to spruce up the infoboxs a bit. Especially with some of tw towns in Telford and boroughs of Greater Manchester. Also just because an article in 2008 got FA status doesn't make it protected from edits. I added a collage, hardly a throw away from my edits back on Skegness. Where I challenged old information from an old census database. I have agreed already about the articles and to look at my created ones. I even added a couple of sources to Hollyhurst, Telford and participated in its nomation. So i am taking note but I also have other things going on. So my edits or acknowledging of them maybe a bit later than others. ] (]) 03:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::It concerns me greatly that while there is a discussion about your future at ANI you are still making a large number of very questionable edits. I still have half a mind to say this is too much trouble and go for a block, but as you’re ignoring ], I’m not sure that point won’t be too far off. - ] (]) 03:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::@] at this point. I can see you do not like me. I can see this from both your wording of "sub-standard crap" and "go for a ban". Some choice wording and actions. I've already answered enough but your clearly made up your mind. Nothing else will convince you. Perhaps you should not engage further with me at this point. Cause nothing I say or do seems to provide enough evidence to quell your subtle dislike of me. Prehaps you should just let the other editors handle it. Im not gonna apologise further and try to change your opinion of me. I wont reply further to you at this point. Your wording is coming across as aggressive and threating to me. ] (]) 18:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Absolute nonsense. I neither like nor dislike you. I have major concerns over your ability to edit and I stand by my judgement of your output. I have further concerns over your decision to create category pages and work on categories while the thread was going on rather than start clearing up the mess you’ve made. All you’ve done is provide more evidence that you lack the ability to edit within the guidelines. Again, this is nothing to do with liking or not liking you as an individual (I’m entirely ambivalent about you) but it is about your output and the additional time and effort you are making others go through to tidy up the mess you’ve made. ] (]) 18:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::Okay thanks for clarification. I understand your position better now. ] (]) 18:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{cob}} | |||
==== Discussion ==== | |||
* I think I would be happier if: | |||
# there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400). | |||
# I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "{{tq|This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}.}}" This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB '''prove''' to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - ] (]) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I don't see why we need to restrict userspace editing. This would allow them to create pages that would help show that they can create suitable articles. If there are later problems then it can be added but otherwise poor quality drafts in userspace are generally harmless. Is there evidence of problems here? ''']''' (]) 19:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Because at the moment there are at least a couple of hundred articles that are sub-standard crap and getting him to focus on cleaning those up is important (rather than leave them for everyone else to tidy up while yet more rubbish is churned out in userspace). A temporary hold on article creation in userspace is no great loss to them and will save a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted. - ] (]) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See ]. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). ]] 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* {{ping|KJP1|Cremastra}} Another element for the cleanup project: where an article has been created at a disambiguated title, it should be added to the relevant dab page (or a hatnote made from base title). Dragon hasn't been in the habit of doing so.| <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">{{snd}}Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
* I'd be happier if everyone would wait to get all of these details worked out, '''before''' posting and !voting on new proposals. At this rate, we are chasing our tails, with new proposals coming out as soon as someone objects to something, and then there's an objection to the objection. This is frustrating, and not getting us anywhere. And instead of !voting on how stringent the restrictions need to be, let's try to get consensus on how stringent they need to be. | |||
:Some editors are still saying that we can be fairly loose with how Dragon can edit in mainspace. Personally, I feel like all the evidence I've seen points against that, and I hope that those editors will come around to changing their minds. We have a ton of evidence of edits that cause harm in mainspace, in our reader-facing content, and it's more important, I think, to get that under control, than to hope for the best based on Dragon's enthusiasm for editing. Anyone who disagrees with that, please provide evidence to support your view. | |||
:I also see some arguments that it is, supposedly, unfair to have too many AfDs going at one time. I'm not buying that. We cannot restrict other editors from filing more AfDs. If there's a community ''consensus'' to delete, then that should be that. Again, what stays in mainspace, or doesn't, matters more than giving some special consideration that would outweigh consensus. | |||
:I think it's getting clear that we also need to restrict him from editing category space, and that the supervised cleanup needs to be deemed "successful". As for userspace, I agree with restricting against new content creation in userspace (essentially: no userspace drafts, as well as no AfC drafts), but I think other uses of userspace, including user talk, and using the space as a sort of scratchpad for the supervised cleanup, should be permitted. --] (]) 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* The user demonstated enough maturity and will to take criticism and improve. Yes, him being neurodivergent makes that harder to accomplish, but he just wants to contribute; stop killing his enthusiasm and help him improve instead. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – ] and ] also apply here. --] (]) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::{{re|Tryptofish}} I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the ]. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance).{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Thanks for those very constructive thoughts. I appreciate what you are saying. I know KJP1 very well, and I have high confidence in both him and Cremastra to provide exactly the kind of guidance you recommend. --] (]) 00:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::@] He's had quite a lot of both time and guidance already. ]] 10:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I'd agree the debate is getting a bit lost in the weeds. Are there not basically two views? I think there is agreement that we don't currently want new articles being created, either directly or through AfC, until clear evidence of improvement, gained through engagement in reviewing the 400+ already created, is presented at appeal. Some think that is sufficient, and editing in mainspace should otherwise be permitted, while others favour limiting editing in mainspace to the 400+, and to any related discussions, with others editors involved in clean-up/at AfD/etc. If that is the main point of difference, my suggestion would be that we err on the side of leniency and allow other editing in mainspace. If that proves problematic, we can always come back here. I think there is great benefit in reaching agreement, and enabling Cremastra, myself and others to begin working with DragonofBatley on reviewing the 400+. That will enable them to demonstrate their commitment, give solid evidence as to their ability to learn and to improve their editing, and clean-up the articles for the benefit of readers. ] (]) 07:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
**That’s a good summary of how I see things too. If leniency is the path, I think we’ll be back here soon. Recent editing while this thread has been going on shows a lot of new problems being created but no progress on the clean up. I think we’re likely to see as many problems being created as are being sorted, but I’ll bow to the consensus if it goes that way. ] (]) 07:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::@], I have started to engage with your sandbox you tagged me. I can see some already noted and some already seeing afd afm and redirect. I think you'd be better off tagging me more for articles needing a clean up desperately than ones being afd and confirmed as notable. Ill engage with that sandbox as its on my Watchlist and make necessary changes where needed. Not off a whim since your going back to the start of my time on this site. It'll offload my workload and help with afd and afm to discuss deletion or merging. ] (]) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too ] for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. ] (]) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. ] (]) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I, too, would like to move this towards a decision. It seems to me that the sticking point is over differing views about whether DoB should be placed under strict restrictions about editing, in order to control a history of negative effects upon our reader-facing content, or whether to allow DoB a greater amount of leeway in editing, based on his sincere desire to be a good contributor and consideration of his self-described status as neurodivergent. I think we need to go one way or the other on this, and once we do that, we can get to consensus. There's little point in editors repeating what we have already said, and going back and forth over that. I think we should look at the evidence we have, and seek a consensus – not unanimous consent, but ]. And nobody here is coming from a position of personal dislike of DoB, or wanting to get rid of DoB. We wouldn't be working so hard on crafting this, if that were the case. | |||
:::::The editors, including me, who favor strict restrictions have provided a significant amount of evidence, based on edit history and continuing edits, to support that view. In my opinion, editors who oppose those restrictions are acting more out of a feeling, rather than based upon the actual characteristics of mainspace edits. At least, that's my opinion. I've been thinking hard about this, and it seems to me that stricter restrictions would provide DoB with ''structure'' while working to correct past mistakes and move forward into good editing status. And I believe ''structure'' to be A Good Thing. A lack of structure would actually make things more difficult. Structure (just until such time as the restrictions can be lifted) would be helpful. I really hope that we can agree on that. --] (]) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I ] KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. ] (]/]) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I'm ND and lurking so I'm chime in. | |||
:::::::I was thinking of a short period of being restricted to fixing their articles (perhaps with a specific mentor) before being allowed more freedom to generally edit, then any other restrictions can be lifted over time? | |||
:::::::They've admitted that they have issues with sensory overload already, so having a tight focus on exact tasks with goals to aim for could be really helpful in this case. It will also ensure that the affected articles aren't left by the wayside, as there are so many of them. | |||
:::::::Having a visual list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed will also be a good motivator and incentive - another useful tool for ND editors. | |||
:::::::TLDR: I think we should aim for structure & focus on specific, clear tasks, with incentives for reaching certain goals. The best way to do this would be to restrict to fixing the articles then gradually expand the scope of editing over time. ] (]) 22:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::@] {{tqq| list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed}} there's ]. ] (]) 22:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles == | |||
'''@Closing Admin''' | |||
:1. I request that this accusation be thrown out on grounds of ]. | |||
::In particular the accusations cover '''three''' discussions. Shortly after ] opened this section, he informed , and of this section. After I , he notified another four editors, all of whom had contributed to the debate at ]. He did not contact anybody who contributed to either of the other discussions but did not contribute to ]. I about vote-stacking. To date he does not appear to have taken any notice of my request. | |||
::I therefore request that the closing admin close this request without discussion on grounds of violation of ], If the closing admin is not willing to do so, please let me know and I will then mount a defence to rebut the accusations against me. ] (]) 16:36, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
] keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on ], however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them. | |||
'''@Beyond My Ken''' | |||
:(Reponse to ]) | |||
:1. In my view, the structures that I introduced were necessary to prevent this community discussion turning into a ] in which I could become the victim. | |||
::] (]) 09:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Diffs: | |||
===Closing Admin's comments=== | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288 | |||
'''Will the closing admin please post his/her comments here. This will ensure that they are separate from other comments.''' ] (]) 17:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot) | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609 | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383 | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559 | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036 | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot) | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172 | |||
* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
::Citation '''bot''' is an automated process, and not a human. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. ] (]) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:You can add this to the page in question – <nowiki>{{bots|deny=Citation bot}}</nowiki> – or you can add this to a specific citation – <nowiki>{{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}}</nowiki> – to keep the bot away. See -- ].]] 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that ] did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on ], see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. ] (]) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a ]. ] (]) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Citation bot is not a ], but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed: | |||
::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348 | |||
::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078 | |||
::"All ] apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account." | |||
::-] ] (]) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the ''person'' who is ''using'' the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Most of these seem to have been invoked by {{u|Abductive}}, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? ] (]) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on ]. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee {{rpa}}. Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. ] (]) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles: | |||
:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133 | |||
:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054 | |||
:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369 | |||
:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875 | |||
:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493 | |||
:Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates. | |||
:These edits were suggested by the following user: | |||
:*] | |||
:] (]) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Found another bad date in another article: | |||
::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by ] | |||
::Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. ] (]) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Found another bad date in another article: | |||
:::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference) | |||
:::Suggested by user: | |||
:::*] | |||
:::Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates ] (]) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::] is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". ] (]) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Because it is not necessarily an error. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It is still about Citation bot. ] (]) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by ]. ] (]) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
You have given the operators ] to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org).  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? ] (]) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits.]] 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the ]. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —] (]) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that.]] 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus." | |||
:::::-] | |||
:::::] is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. ] (]) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::It would be best if the bad source was removed, per ] and ]. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes.]] 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Can you quote the part of ] which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. ? ] (]) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —] (]) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about ], not ]. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about ''your'' use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. ] (]) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::] specifically says {{tq|The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. '''In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account.''' Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot}}. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —] (]) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::{{tqq|I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.}} I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to ] to me... - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them. | |||
::::::::::::As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —] (]) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>moved down from the middle of the above comment (]). – ] (]) (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
::::::::::::::So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right??]] 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. ] (]) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Unsupervised bot and script use has ]. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix ].... ] (]) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::We're into ]. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. ] (]) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{pb}}I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to {{u|Whoop whoop pull up}} two weeks ago () about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed ''me'' to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have ''continued'' to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at {{Section link|User talk:Whoop whoop pull up|Checking IABot runs}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. ''Both'' should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here ''neither''. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. ] (]) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:] is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it. | |||
:* Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support: | |||
:** ] says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, '''whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page'''" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot). | |||
:** BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of ]. Now, ROLE ''does'' have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple '''managers'''", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're ''developed and maintained'' by a team of people (rather than ones that can be ''used'' by multiple people). | |||
:** Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to ''50,000'' pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the ''only'' people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved ''despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible''; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they ''were, in fact, approved'' implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface. | |||
:** ] seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page. | |||
:** ] says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ''''", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user. | |||
:** ] provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to. | |||
:* Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support: | |||
:** ] says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved ''despite'' the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance). | |||
:] <sup>] 🏳️⚧️ ]</sup> 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy. | |||
::"Both should take reponsibility" | |||
::-] at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 ] (]) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? ] <sup>] 🏳️⚧️ ]</sup> 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere. | |||
::::Policy is very clear, '''don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus.''' ] (]) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::: WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. {{pb}}These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. ] (]) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Or, as ] puts it: {{tq|Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked.}} ] (]) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Citation bot has not been {{tqq|approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking}}. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at {{slink|User:Citation bot|Bot approval}}. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.{{pb}}But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.{{pb}}If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. ] (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot.]] 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::☝🏽{{Pb}}It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.{{pb}}I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.{{pb}}Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.{{pb}}Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.{{pb}}I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against {{u|Abductive}} or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion ''somewhere'' specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping {{u|AManWithNoPlan}}, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. ] (]) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::: I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots ''and'' checking the results.<span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).{{pb}}However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.{{pb}}Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.{{pb}}Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, ] (]) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{tq|" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"}} Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. ] (]) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. ] (]) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Response to Martinvl's defence=== | |||
::Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 ] (]) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''Will editors who wish to respond to my defence, please do so here. I will ensure that everything that I write can be cross-referenced using the notation "@A.N.Other (1)".''' ] (]) 16:36, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Is there anything left here to discuss? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{archivebottom}} | |||
*:The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. ] (]) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:: Why is that example wrong? The source code of the webpage says {{code|"datePublished":"2023-02-25T18:46:42+00:00",}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 04:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Because the webpage made unknown modifications after that date. "<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2023-09-04T22:23:52+00:00" />" view-source:https://worldribus.org/east-antarctica-ranges/. ] (]) 04:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::: If a news article had a modified date, for example created on January 1 but maybe a correction was made on Jan 3, then you would want the date shown to be Jan 1 because that is how articles are cited (and later found). How is a bot supposed to know you might want the modified date instead of the creation date? <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 04:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::1. Not a news article. | |||
*:::::2. Intention is irrelevant. These edits are disruptive regardless. | |||
*:::::3. Maybe program it to not add dates to modified works. ] (]) 04:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== ] bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools == | |||
{{collapsebottom}} | |||
*{{userlinks|PEPSI697}} | |||
I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights. | |||
===Discussion regarding possible topic ban=== | |||
I think this debate has shown all that needs to be in regards to Martinvl's behaviour, and they have failed to justify any of their actions. I would like to propose at least a year long topic-ban in regards to measurements and some form of community ban for a specified period due to their behaviour as highlighted throughout this AN/I. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:55, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Agree that a year-long topic-ban would be a good way of dealing with this.--] (]) 20:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' long topic ban, as this editor has shown an utter inability to edit neutrally in the area of measurement systems. ] ] 05:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*<b>Support</b> The block appeal at ] demonstrates how any discussion with him on this topic just ends up in a huge ] festival and many users are simply tired of it; the community needs a break. His first action on the block expiry was to repeat accusations of vote stacking, when he has repeatedly been told neutral notices informing other editors is a requirement of ]. ] <small>]</small> 08:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*<s><b>Support, sadly</b> For reasons the others have given. ] ] 08:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC)</s> | |||
** '''Comment''' I withdraw my viewpoint after reading the sensible comments by ] about the issue, and also noting the correction to people's imagined intention behind the initial statement that caused these viewpoints to begin being formally made, by ]. ] ] 04:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
***'''Further Comment''' I suggest something needs to be done very quickly. A look at the editing history of this template: shows that an edit war was stopped by an adminsitrator initiated protection of the template, and when, a matter of 2 or so days ago, the protection was removed, edit warring resumed. Both Martinvl and another editor who has contributed to this thread are involved in this. Some uninvolved administrator needs to take action now to stop this disruption that, amazingly, is continuing whilst this topic on AN/I is still open! 15:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per above. --''']]]''' 08:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Abstain''' <s>and '''Oppose'''. '''Abstain'''</s> from WCM's original proposal of a ban on discussing use of units in Misplaced Pages articles; I've been staying away from those discussions, the MOSNUM thread drives me to despair. <s>'''Oppose''' banning Martinvl from all articles on units and systems of measurement; the drama levels on these are much lower and Martinvl continues to make constructive edits. '''Oppose''' a community site ban; I can't see what it would prevent that lesser bans would not. This ANI thread has escalated rather fast, as ANI threads sometimes do; shouldn't we try an ]?</s> ] (]) 10:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) <small> opposes struck per ] (]) 09:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC) </small> | |||
::If it comes to assessing the consensus of editors who are not involved then count me as involved, at the very least because I participated in ]. ] (]) 21:47, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*<s> Oppose' serial sanctions. As Martinvl's block is expiring, we should wait to see if the reflection time has been sufficient for them to gain a better understanding of community norms. <small>]</small> 11:13, 21 October 2013 (UTC)</s> | |||
:*'''Support,''' given their continued wiki-lawyering upon block expiration. <small>]</small> 10:06, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose''' ban, mostly per ], but also based on my previous interactions with ]. Let's try some less drastic remedies first. <small><span style="color:gray"><tt>]<span style="display:inline-block;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1em">]<br/>]</span></tt></span></small> 14:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Abstain''' - I feel as if parties involved in the matter should not voice an opinion here. ] — ] 15:20, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support'''. I declare my involvement (again). I have long felt that a topic ban was needed due to this editor's chronic inability to edit neutrally in this area. This includes in following the rules on unrelated articles. On RGloucester's point, I disagree: I see no reason not to put my view, declaring my involvement, and allow the closing admin to give it the weight it merits. I didn't comment much above because I didn't feel it would help. '']'' <small>'']''</small> 17:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I did not mean to admonish those who have decided to voice an opinion, merely to state my own. I personally prefer that decision be taken by neutral parties, preferably administrators, who evaluate the matter through their own mental procedures. That is merely why I have not voiced an opinion of either "Oppose" or "Support", and should, as I said, not be taken negatively. ] — ] 18:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' - whoa my proposal wasn't meant to be a straw-poll for all of us involved editors to support or oppose. It was my proposal for the admins looking at this page as it is they will decide what action to partake not us. I also removed the sub-section header someone put above my proposal as it was not meant to a straw-poll - that borders on refactoring another editors comment. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::*Adding a section header is a ]. <small>]</small> 10:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Mabuska, thanks for that and I hope you've encouraged Martinvl to engage here or in an RFC/U. Just on a technical note, I don't think it's quite correct to say the admins will decide whether to impose a ban. The community does (unless ArbCom's given a ruling). ] has this: "If an editor has proven to be repeatedly disruptive in one or more areas of Misplaced Pages, the community may engage in a discussion to site ban, topic ban, or place an interaction ban or editing restriction via a consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute. When determining consensus, the closing administrator will assess the strength and quality of the arguments" and then goes into more detail about the process and suchlike. ] (]) 11:01, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Abstain''' for the same reasons as RGloucester. I have described above my impressions at MOSNUM, where I was involved, but it would not be appropriate to express a view formally supporting or opposing a "consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute". --] (]) 18:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) {{Diff2|1264943166|a message}} for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person {{Diff2|1264946563|made a discussion on the talk page}} about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me {{Diff2|1264940021|this}} message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I {{Diff2|1264940623|didn't understand what exactly was the issue}}, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I {{Diff2|1265117356|wish him merry Christmas}}, he wishes me, everything is fine. | |||
*'''Dismiss this ANI on grounds of vote-stacking by proposer:''' I requested that this ANI be dimissed on grounds of ] by ]. ] argued that this issue of vote-stacking had been dealt with on my Talk Page. This is incorrect - the issues there were clouded by many things including the need need to have given Wee Curry Monster proper notice. I have now that I am posting this message and as such, anything on my talk page should be disregarded as it could be taken out of context. ] (]) 10:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**Given that this discussion has now been going on in this forum for a while, and your previous attempts to raise this as grounds to dismiss this matter have not been successful, the issue is now not relevant. Your attempt to re-raise it suggests that you're unwilling to face up to the concerns which have been raised about your conduct above. ] (]) 10:42, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::As I said above, Martin. Your best option is to address the concerns voiced here, not to try and wriggle out of any possible commentary. ] — ] 13:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I fear you misunderstood Giant Snowman's comment about notice. I don't think he was saying you should give WCM notice; I think he was saying that WCM had been giving notice as required rather than vote-stacking. But either way, please put that aside and address the concerns expressed here. ] (]) 13:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::The normal procedure for the administration of justice in any civilized community is for the accused to listen to the accusations and then to present his case to whoever is presiding over the case. In this instance, the presiding officer is the closing administrator and my opening gambit is that this thread is null and void because Wee Curry Monster indulged in vote stacking at the very beginning thereby prejudicing a fair discussion. Please leave it to him (or her) to decide. If the closing administrator decides that my case is good, then he will not have to wade through 7870 words to arrive at a decision, otherwise we will see what (s)he decides. You can help by leaving matters by just letting the closing administrator do their job. ] (]) 14:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Martinvl, please do not take offense to these words and understand that it is honest advice for you; stop responding, consider the points everyone here has made, and understand both how Misplaced Pages resolves disputes, and carefully consider how you have presented yourself and your argument. Then craft another response. At this time I feel you are only damaging your own defence. ] (]) 14:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::OK. I don't think "Misplaced Pages's metric martyr denied due process, natural justice" is going to fly here or in the wider world, but I'll strike my oppose and leave you to your gambits. ] (]) 09:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: {{Diff2|1269540618|1}}, {{diff2|1268720318|2}}, {{diff2|1268521356|3}}, {{Diff2|1268313652|4}}, {{Diff2|1268308516|5}}, {{Diff2|1268121077|6}}, {{Diff2|1268119998|7}}, {{Diff2|1268118180|8}}, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is ]. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor ({{u|Augmented Seventh}}): {{diff2|1269323555|1}}, {{diff2|1269333853|2}}, {{diff2|1269126403|3}}. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15. | |||
{{collapsetop|Comment withdrawn, realised I was repeating myself and advised my by mentor not to keep responding}} | |||
::::::::I'm only responding as Martin has templated me on my talk page but its precisely this sort of relentless pursuit of trivia, false accusations and unnecessary ] that led me to initiate this thread. At ] he falsely accused me of edit warring, when I indicated clearly to Martin I would not under any circumstances revert him. Other editors agreed with my comments that his changes detracted from the quality of the article, reverted Martin and he alone then edited warred to impose his views upon the article. Discussion at ] then descended into farce with Martin wikilawyering that the article should be reverted back to <u>his</u> version whilst we discussed it with him. In the biased RFC he initiated he repeated the same false accusation I was edit warring with him. Here, it is a <i>requirement</i> that I notify involved editors, which I did via a neutral templated message. After Martin himself demanded it, I went on to notify everyone involved at ] via a neutral templated message and there is a neutral note at ]. The accusation of vote stacking is patently false (farsical in that he himself demanded I notify additional editors), he's been told repeatedly it is baseless and he won't let it go. Its precisely because of his inability to drop the ] that leads him to bring up the same topic again and again at ]. Rather than addressing the issues with his behaviour he is attempting to divert this into discussions about other editors. This isn't an isolated example, its how Martin operates and whilst Martin refuses to listen and is unable to collaborate with editors who don't share his opinion he is not an asset to this project. ] <small>]</small> 16:04, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{collapsebottom}} | |||
*And this is exactly the point, Martin. Despite various people on your talk page and elsewhere explaining to you that this is not a court of justice, that attempting to force some bizarre set of procedures upon the administrators here is not productive, you continue on with it. This is exactly emblematic of your behavior at MOSNUM and at the United Kingdom talk page. You are not listening to what people are saying. You are being disruptive, and refusing to get the point. There is no way you can be part of a collaborative project like Misplaced Pages if you cannot listen. I really just don't understand it. Listen to what people have said on your talk page, and stop with the technicalities. And this point, however, I have little hope for you. ] — ] 14:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*@RGloucester: I beg to differ - the Concise Oxford Dictionary defines "Justice" as "exercise of authority in maintenance of right". If the purpose of this ANI request is to exercise authority, then its purpose is the ''administration of justice''. Apart from a court or a mob, who else administers justice? ] (]) 16:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Your misunderstanding is that '''''you have <u>no</u> rights here''''', nor does anyone else who edits Misplaced Pages. This is a private website, operating under rules promulgated by the WMF and further developed by the community of editors. '''''You have no "right" to edit here", no "right" to have "justice" done, no "right" to due process.''''' What you have is an obligation to follow community-determined mores of behavior in order to continue to contribute to improving the encyclopedia. Period. If you don't understand that, you will never be happy here, and if you don't '''''observe''''' that obligation, the community can, and will, turn you out without batting an eyelash, and you will have no "right" of protest - although the community will almost certainly allow you to appeal any ban, even though it is not obliged to do so. Does that make the situation any clearer to you? ] (]) 17:12, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Furthermore, Martin, you agreed to all this when you signed up to Misplaced Pages. Please abandon your present course, change your approach, and I sincerely hope that you will be able stay on wikipedia, though I think you really really need a mentor if you are to continue. ] ] 03:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I do. I called "dibs". But seriously, you seem to be incompatible with the project as a whole. You haven't taken anyone's advice to heart. Your only recourse may be to abandon your current area of interest voluntarily and work on other articles while you learn how Misplaced Pages works and how to work with Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 16:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::That says it all - some anonymous contributor, identified only by a ] IP address administers justice - even worse than ] (or does ] think otherwise)? ] (]) 16:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::''Woosh''. ] (]) 17:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I believe Martin no longer warrants any response or reaction. ] — ] 18:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' the ban. What Martin continues to call "mob rule" is what the rest of us refer to as the ], or ]. Martin continually refuses to recognise those concepts, and perpetuates the belief that he (alone of our 20 million en-Wikipedians) has a right of veto. In view of his never-ending disruption and wikilawyering I support a ban. - ] (]) 17:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' For what my input is as "some anonymous contributor". There are firm examples of Battleground mentality, IDHT, and other incompatible behavior that is not a benefit to the project. ] (]) 17:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' topic ban. Actually, considering the nature of Martinvl's behavior, an indef block or site ban is probably needed, since his editing in any area is likely to exhibit the same problems, but I'm willing to go along with the topic ban, and we'll see if he can tone down his behavior while editing in areas he's less fervent about. ] (]) 17:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' topic ban. There seems to be the general feeling that Martinvl is abusing the good faith of fellow editors, and his actions appear to be rather ]. It's clear almost everywhere that editors have had enough of his ] attitude, deliberate misconstruction of the words of others here and in the RfC, his singular ] the consensus position by calling this "vote-stacking" is risible. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">]</span></small>] 01:59, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi {{Diff2|1269543780|replaced}} my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential ] violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to {{Diff2|1269546279|seek clarification}} as to why they did this on their talk page. In {{Diff2|1269548452|their response to me}}, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me {{Diff2|1269576325|this}} message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see {{Diff2|1269577089|this}} edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me {{Diff2|1269580448|this}} message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. {{Diff2|1269580707|This}} edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me. | |||
=== Requesting Review by Uninvolved Admin === | |||
I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - {{diff2|1269549064|here}} they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when ] ] for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of ] without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. ]] 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
A week after a block for edit warring here , we see Martin edit warring again at ], see . He is still muttering that his block was counter to ] and there is a quasi-legalistic threat in reference to California Law on his talk page see ]. Really edit warring whilst there is a live thread here demonstrates clearly he can't drop the ]. Request review of consensus for a topic ban above and a possible block for continued edit warring by an uninvolved admin. ] <small>]</small> 17:00, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
:I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. ] (]) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Ludwig von Mises Institute == | |||
::That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and ], you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. ]] 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{Archive top|result=There is a strong and broad consensus for imposing general sanctions as proposed. I intend to make three minor changes to the wording and one more significant change, which is eliminating ArbCom as a forum to appeal the sanctions. I am making the latter change based on several comments that ArbCom would not normally have jurisdiction to hear an appeal from community-imposed sanctions. Also, the instructions at ] state: "Arbitration decisions may provide that appeals against sanctions imposed '''under the decision''' are to be appealed to this noticeboard or to another community forum." (bolding added by me) Last, even NE Ent says, whether I agree or not, that ArbCom is always available as a forum of last resort. Here then is the wording: | |||
:I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. , for example, they say: {{tpq|Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. }}. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. ] (]) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. ({{Diff2|1269544073|1}}, {{Diff2|1269540089|2}}, {{Diff2|1269335610|3}}, {{Diff2|1269126904|4}} {{Diff2|1269098577|5}}, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). ]] 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Seeing {{tq|no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism}} is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ ] (]) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. ] (]) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the ] (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." ] (]) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments {{Diff2|1269580448|demanding}} that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. ]] 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::@]: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it. | |||
::::: | |||
::::@]: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are ''obvious'' vandalism. | |||
::::: | |||
::::Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, {{tqq|You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents}} - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you ''will'' stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you ''might'' stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. ]] 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{nacc}} {{ping|PEPSI697}} A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page ], ] and ]. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at ] and ] because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.{{pb}}FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on ] that you get {{tq|stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it}} when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been ]. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you {{tq|sometimes don't understand what some words mean}}, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.{{pb}}Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- ] (]) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to ]. ]] 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. ] (]) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future === | |||
<blockquote>Any uninvolved administrator may, at his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working on a page within the topic of Austrian Economics, if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standard of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them or the ].</blockquote> | |||
--] (]) 00:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
:I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day. | |||
The ] has been the subject of significant edit warring over the past several weeks. It has been fully protected twice within the past month (by myself and {{user|Orlady}}), but immediately after the expiry of each protection, edit warring has immediately resumed. After today's edit war, I considered issuing blocks, but only one party broke 3RR ({{user|MilesMoney}} by my math) and several stopped <s>just</s> before the line, so I hesitate to block one editor for crossing the line while others were arguably edit warring as well. {{user|Iselilja}}, {{user|Srich32977}}, {{user|SPECIFICO}}, and {{user|Binksternet}} have made multiple reverts today but stopped short of violating 3RR. Would it be possible to enact a community 1RR restriction on this article, as was recently placed on ]? I think that type of measure may be needed. ] (]) 20:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: | |||
:I would recommend page protection and a rollback of the article to the expiry of the prior PP. It's clear in hindsight that the PP was removed prematurely so rollback and renewal of PP seems as if it would accomplish what was originally intended/hoped to work. 1RR seems to require a lot of work for Admins and no bright line for editors -- and has the possibility of degenerating into a game of musical chairs. ]] 20:20, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content. | |||
:BTW, Srich is at 4RR and counting. and seems to have been the one who inflamed the situation with a scattershot campaign of reverts during a short recent period. Although PP should solve the problem for now, Srich's disregard of warnings from various editors and admins over the past 4-6 weeks have made for an increasingly disruptive environment on these Mises-related articles. ]] 20:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: | |||
::Eh? The page protection is applied without implying any judgement on the content at that point. - ] (]) 20:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one. | |||
:::Hello Sitush. I have no idea what the article looked like at the expiry, but it's clear that the PP should not have been allowed to expire '''clear in hindsight that is''' -- so I'm suggesting we just get back to what was originally intended by the PP. I don't see Mark or anyone else commenting on the article as of any date. ]] 20:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: | |||
:::::"Rolling back" the article to an earlier state will not help. After each of my Bold edits was Reverted I opened a talk page Discussion thread. I also readded SPS tags needed to facilitate discussion. Templates for OR and Off-Topic sections were added, along with discussion threads. Some of my edits resolved clear editing problems with duplicate info, citations, unsupported info. Thanks. – ] (]) 20:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Also, I see that 2 of the 4 complaints that Specifico posts are the additions of the SPS tags and OR/Off-topic template. Jeez! – ] (]) 20:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly? | |||
::::::Spoken like a true edit-warrior, Srich. There's always some special reason or exception for you, right? If only we understood you better. We feel your pain. ]] 21:05, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: | |||
::::I'm open to extending protection another week or month or whatever, but I have a strong suspicion that we'll be back in this exact situation when it expires. Perhaps I'm being too pessimistic though. ] (]) 20:43, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I have no objection to a 1RR rule or full page protection, but that does not address the underlying problem whose name is MilesMoney, a clear-cut troll that solely exists on Misplaced Pages to disrupt and has wasted tons of the community's time already. This is why I reverted him twice without much discussions. MM has already generated far, far too much needless debate with his often frivolous edits and talk page suggestions. I saw you (Arsten) refused to call him a Duck in the SPI case, but he has all the charactestics of that user and regardless of who he is he needs to be given the curb and he can be given that on his own merits now. I am going to propose a site ban of MilesMoney (which I was already considering before this happened, but I dread wasting more time on him). If the site ban suggestion fails, I will bring this for the ArbCom for consideration. We can not live with a situation where a user gets to troll and waste the community's time for months, while a serious editor like me get approached like an edit warrior because I did my duty as a conscientious Wikipedian to revert a troll twice. Regards, ] (]) 20:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool. | |||
::I didn't mean to characterize you as an edit warrior in my post, I was just noting that many editors were making >1 revert to support my belief that 1RR should be enforced. As far as sanctions for MM are concerned, I think it would be better to consider a topic ban before jumping straight to a site ban discussion. ] (]) 21:05, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection. | |||
:::For clarification of the latter part of my comment here, see ]. ] (]) 21:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. ]] 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Sorry for lasthing out a bit. I have great respect for what you are doing at Misplaced Pages. But something I am very concerned about is if we end up in a situation where those who fight a very disruptive user ends up being treated as just as bad as the disruptive user himself. MilesMoney has created disruption in virtually he has involved himself in. . Most of us create disruption wherever we go but manage to edit constructively and collaborate with other users. When I have engaged myself a bit in the issues at hand here it’s because I seriously think that MilesMoney is not editing responsibly and other users need to counter him. Topic banning MilesMoney from Economics/American politics should probably help the situation more than anything else (save a full site ban, which I think is merited, but I can agree to not propose that at the moment). I am not too impressed with some of those who side with Money either, but MM seems to be the major initiator of much of the recent disputes. Regards, ] (]) 21:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Hear, hear. It has always been a problem here, that those who grapple with disruptive editors are likewise branded as disruptive. I hope objective viewers can accurately sort out the characters at play in this range of topics, to find those with a motive and a strong point of view. ] (]) 23:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, I accept your apology. ]] 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Thank you Binksternet. I fully support your comment downthread. You know the situation and the other two named users better than me and you do a very important job in protecting the seriousness of Misplaced Pages which you should be commended for. Regards, ] (]) 00:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' some sort of community sanctions on this article as well as the related article(s) like ] which seem to be getting the same kind of aggressive editing by the same core group of editors (including {{User|Steeletrap}}, who wasn't mentioned in the initial post). I've been watching these articles for a couple of weeks, as well as the talkpages of the involved editors, and something does need to be done, whether that be 1RR restrictions or long term protection (obviously an unattractive option) or topic bans. Like Mark Arsten, I'm not terribly optimistic about the situation, particularly since the battleground seems to move from article to article. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 20:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::No ''community'' sanction is warranted. Please read ] if you'd like to see who the sole cause of all this disruption across the project is. Search for the personal attacks on Frank O'Connor on that talk page to see it clear as day. The entire issue can be solved by sanctioning '''MilesMoney''', the one editor who is indeed guilty of edit warring at the Von Mises Institute article. ] (]) 21:08, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::<small>Heh, I initially misunderstood your suggestion...I went to the talk page and did a search for the words "personal attack". There did seem to be a common thread. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 21:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC)</small> | |||
:I support at least a topic ban for MilesMoney, covering all economics, anarchism and libertarian topics, broadly construed. The reason is that MilesMoney is disruptive—he jumps in to play Eris, to increase the level of conflict and discord. He has no positive contribution to make relative to content. | |||
:However, I do not want MilesMoney's antics to distract from the obviously emotion-driven POV activism of Steeletrap, and the stealthy evisceration performed by Specifico who slowly but surely takes away content showing certain parties in a positive light, and just as slowly but surely highlights the negative. | |||
:Me, I have no love for Austrian School economists (I am in favor of government-instituted economic policies) and I am not at all an economist by training or practice, so I am as neutral on the general topic as can be achieved here on Misplaced Pages. When I was alerted to problems related to Austrian School topics I found Steeletrap and Specifico working their POV changes to put one faction in a bad light. It became clear that they were fans of a competing faction, and that their purpose on Misplaced Pages was to reduce the respectability of their ideological opponents. Whatever I do at those articles is intended to establish as neutral a tone as possible. ] (]) 21:50, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::It would be convenient if the focus of the problem were also the cause. Sadly, life doesn't always work that way. ] (]) 22:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: Bink, you fundamentally misunderstand ]. Your (by your own admission) knowing nothing about economics means you're unable to distinguish from ] and ] economists and schools of economics. (LvMI is *by their own admission* the former; independent RS associated with academic institutions are almost uniformly critical of its scholars, owing to their dogmatic rejection of the scientific method as applied to economics.) Your ] perspective is akin to someone who knows nothing about biology insisting on adding "equal space" for evolutionism and creationism. ] (]) 23:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I fully support and trust the judgement of Binksternet here. Regards, ] (]) 00:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
'''Comment''' Though I wasn't mentioned by OP, I am heavily involved in these articles. I can only speak for myself, but I think stepping back and taking a deep breath would be a good idea, and I certainly intend on doing that. (In any case, while bias is still a problem on the LvMI articles, it is much less so than when I arrived on WP, at which time they were almost entirely sourced to fellow Mises Institute friends/colleagues, which gave a grotesquely biased presentation of the reception of impact of these thinkers.) However, I am highly concerned by the combination of sensational allegations with no corroborating diffs characterizing the above discussion. Administrator ] in particular should recuse himself any discussion concerning Milesmoney, owing to the credibility hit he took in publicly accusing Miles of being a sock, bereft of any evidence, in charges that were dismissed as groundless. ] (]) 23:38, 17 October 2013 (UTC)<br> | |||
:To be precise, the SPI was closed with no action because the checkuser evidence was stale and there was insufficient evidence to block per ]. ] (]) 00:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
'''@Sitush''' - Sitush, isn't there by definition a behavioral problem whenever Page Protection is required? Let's keep this simple and take one step at a time. ]] 23:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)<br> | |||
'''@Sitush''' - Shitush, the point of rollback is not to get to any particular version. The point is to make it as if the old protection never ended so we restore the protection and the article to T-1 one second before the protection ended. To me that's a neat and objective solution. 00:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*I agree with Mark Arsten that the problem with this article (and others related to it) isn't going to be resolved by short-term full-protection, because the warriors simply bide their time until the protection expires, when they can get back to warring. The vitriol spilled on this page (among others) is an indication of one reason why a 1RR restriction also won't work. That is, this dispute is no longer just about strong opinions on the article topic -- it's become highly personalized. | |||
:Below I suggest that we full-protect the article for an indefinite duration to keep the warring away from the article page. If similar disputes occur on related articles, let's full-protect them, too -- until somebody comes up with a decent draft article that won't inflame new wars. --] (]) 01:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::My understanding of ANI is that admins don't comment on content. But Orlady wants a better article before a freeze she suggests is removed. Meanwhile she has no problem with MilesMoney violating 4RR? This seems off to me. ] (]) 04:00, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::My apologies for not clarifying that my comment did not address every aspect of the edit war. (Anyway, since MilesMoney has already accused me of meatpuppetry after I intervened on this article, it's probably best if I don't comment on him.) My point is that (1) there are multiple edit-warriors here and (2) short-term protection has not been effective in getting them to discuss their content disputes because they simply wait for the protection to expire, then resume warring; therefore, I propose indefinite protection until somebody somehow manages to work out the content issues. --] (]) 19:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
=== Response and apology from PEPSI697 === | |||
*Support 1RR as minimal solution for this article, per below. '''] ''' 12:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
'''@Binksternet''' - I don't think it's very important which version is the one protected. I stated my reason for rolling back to the old protected version above, namely that it undoes what in hindsight was the premature ending of the PP in effect earlier this month. The advantage of that approach is that it doesn't depend on content but rather would take the article back to before it became unstable. I believe that is an established WP principle. At any rate, whatever version is protected will presumably end up being revised as a result of consensus during the protection. I think that the important point is that 1RR is somewhat ambiguous and is going to be more work for Admins and more confusing for editors. Which version is protected or whether it's indefinite, as Orlady has proposed, I think are secondary questions which could be determined by whoever closes this thread. It appears that there's a consensus for some kind of PP in preference to 1RR. [[User:SPECIFICO |<font color ="0011FF"> | |||
'''SPECIFICO'''</font>]]] 19:24, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Why don't we go farther back than that? We could return to , just prior to which included your removal of the word "academic" and any form of the word ''scholar'' from the lead section; a clear downgrade of the status of LvMI. Starting from there, with each proposed change requiring talk page consensus, might prove quite interesting. ] (]) 01:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===PROPOSAL=== | |||
The article be rolled back to the version as of whenever the last PP expired, and then Full Protected until November 1. Please do not put threaded discussion here. Use space above. ]] 23:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the ] or looking at the ]? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion. | |||
* '''STATUS QUO''' I've changed my opinion. Constructive editing has resumed, with the warriors now using the talk page and I endorse leaving the article unprotected. The cycle of EW may have been broken by this discussion. <s>'''Support''' as per my initial comment above.</s> Let's drop the off topic rehash of resentments and accusations here. ]] 23:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. ] (]) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' we could all use a deep breath. The above speculations about "topic bans" for user miles are highly inappropriate, not the least because they come from an administrator who falsely and publicly accused him of being a "sock." Several weeks of a WP imposed "vacation" from the LvMI article would do everyone some good. ] (]) 23:58, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::There is guidance on how to use the {{tlx|Talk header}} found on its documentation page at ] and also at ]. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in ] and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like ], ], ], ], ] for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at ] or ]. -- ] (]) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:*The purpose of full protection is not to provide a "vacation" from an article but to provide time for consensus regarding content to emerge. If you want a vacation from it then just use some self-control and stay away. - ] (]) 00:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with ], but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get ] article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::"Please do not put threaded discussion here. Use space above." | |||
{{od|5}} Perhaps an administrator could close this discussion and all its related sub-discussions now that the OP and PEPSI697 seem to have amicably resolved their issue. Maybe all that's needed here is a firm warning to PEPSI697 to try to be careful in the future, and perhaps some encouragement to try not to over use these tools if doing so risks placing them in high-stress situations where they might lose their cool, with a reminder that the community might be less understanding the next time around if they end up back at ANI for doing something similar. -- ] (]) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: I won't touch what you wrote, but it would be good if you moved your comment above, as requested. Please do so (and I'll then remove this request, of course). ] (]) 00:24, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::: I'm quite happy with it being situated as it is, thanks. It is perfectly normal on ANI and Specifico has already been informed of this (as I am sure you know). - ] (]) 00:30, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::@Steeletrap, I assume you are referring to me as the administrator who initiated the sockpuppet investigation, but you might be confusing/conflating me with someone else, since I didn't propose a topic ban for Miles. That was suggested first (I think) by Iselija and seconded by others, but I certainly didn't initiate it, nor did I make any move to support it. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 01:26, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose''' – A "rollback" reverts the SPS tags pertaining to topics under discussion, the off-topic template (also under discussion), the OR template (under discussion), and the clearly appropriate edits that have been undertaken (of which I have a few). – ] (]) 00:02, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support ''' - We need full protection. Rolling back to the last stable version is reasonable, particularly given the rash of questionable recent changes. But the key is full protection, else Srich32977 will repeat their performance and spark a flurry of reverts. ] (]) 00:21, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*The changes are "questionable" to ''you'', obviously. That does not mean that they are to other people and is precisely why we do not protect a preferred version. - ] (]) 00:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' Can we really roll back to a preferred "version" by consensus? I have always been told the revert goes to the last stable version and is then locked. I will watch the discussion here with interest to see how this is concluded. Any explanation to anything I am missing is welcome.--] (]) 00:46, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*When there has been as much edit warring as here and over so long a period of time, there is no "stable" version. - ] (]) 00:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::On the face of that, I can understand why you would think that...but even if we have to go back years...there has to be a stable version. If there really isn't, it may be AFD time.--] (]) 03:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::We could always stub it - just use the lead section and then rebuild ''after'' people agree on content. The lead looks to be pretty innocuous at present. - ] (]) 03:05, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Well...look at me all painted embarrassed!~ I did not see this suggestion from you when I responded below. Yes, Sitush, I agree and support the stubbing of the article!--] (]) 03:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*IMO, it's time to full-protect this article for an indefinite duration. Short-term protection has not achieved the desired goal of quelling the edit warring. I have been disappointed to see that, instead of discussing the article during the protection periods and developing decent draft language that everyone can acquiesce to (which is what would happen in an ideal situation), the combatants have quietly waited for the protection to expire so they could get back to their wars. | |||
:In its current and recent forms, the article has serious deficiencies in structure, sourcing, tone, etc. I believe that most of the issues in the wars could be made to go away if somebody produced a good quality encyclopedic article that is built around objective information (rather than points of view), is structured so as to make sense to someone who does not already have a strong POV about the article topic, and is sourced to the kinds of reliable sources we usually look for. I think it's time to full-protect the article until somebody can create a decent draft outside of article space. In the meantime, administrators can respond to requests to fix errors, update bad urls, etc. --] (]) 01:29, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Full protect''' ''in the present version''. Looking at the diff from 13 Oct to the present , there is only one "controversial" edit outstanding – the inclusion or exclusion of "historical revisionism" in the infobox. The material on Ferrera was changed by me and did not seem to meet with objection. There are templates added and some minor edits regarding the number of scholars, a duplicate mention of the library, and the removal of unsourced material about the institute being housed in a shed for a short time. All of the other "major"changes made by me were restored and discussion threads were set up. The templates now in the article point to the discussions. Stubbing the article runs the risk of repeating the RSN debates about using blog material from Callahan and Murphy, and other debates. – ] (]) 04:06, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose'''. I don't think Specifico's preferred version is the best possible one. I like the more recent Srich edits which have augmented the article. ] (]) 05:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Full protect''' the present version, but '''indefinitely''' because recent history indicates that temporary protection (whether to November 1 or any other date) isn't going to be effective in getting the parties to deal with the issues constructively. --] (]) 19:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Good idea there. I agree that me, Jolielover and the others involved resolved this issue. I absolutely agree with this idea to give a firm warning on my talk page. <b>]</b> ] | ] 08:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== Broader concerns === | |||
::Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you {{tq|absolutely agree with}} isn't really all that relevant to what the community ultimately decides to do, and continuing to post here only runs the risk of you somehow making your situation worse. -- ] (]) 10:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I saw this and immediately thought of ] from a few weeks back. At that time there was a feud over the BLP of the Austrian economist ] and it saw similar issues of edit-warring along with tendentious editing from several parties, basically the same people involved in this latest dispute. This appears to be a problem that touches on articles about Austrian Economics in general. I am not sure if any one party is the sole source of the problem.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 00:09, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Ok, sorry. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Austrian Economics has become a real battleground lately, true. In addition to HHH and LvMI, ] has had a lot of problems lately. I could see this conceivably going to Arbcom, much like the Tea Party dispute. ] (]) 00:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Arbcom can hand out sanctions, I'm sure, but isn't the real problem one of content? If so, maybe we should try to solve it from that direction. ] (]) 01:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::DR/N has a backlog so I suggest going directly to Med Com with this one. But only if you want to deal with content only. Arb Com has shown the balls to hand out wide sanctions over behavior lately (Tea party sanctions, Manning sanctions etc.)and would be the best route for that. AN/I may be able to deal with this, I don't know for sure, but I still say...revert to the last stable version even if we have to stub the article.--] (]) 03:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::While I won't defend the behavior of the editors of this article (including, for the sake of argument, my own), I don't think the problem is centered on behavior. Even if Arbcon topic-banned everyone who's edited the article in the last year, we'd just be replaced by another round of mutually hostile editors who'll get into the same messes over the same topics all over again. | |||
::::The problem is that it's hard to edit this article without a deep knowledge of the subject, but such a knowledge is gained only at the expense of forming opinions and taking sides. The LmVI is not just controversial inside Misplaced Pages, it's controversial in the world at large. The relationship between it and the Austrian school is complex and full of reliable sources that disagree. The figures, many of them no longer alive, are colorful and outspoken. There are credible allegations of many unacceptable views (racism, etc.) that we must report on fairly and accurately. | |||
::::I could go on, but it's an innately hard problem that can't be solved by banging everyone's heads together. ] (]) 03:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Non-neutral paid editor == | |||
{{od}}'''Extreme editor bias is the issue''': In truth, Austrian Economics (especially as promulgated by the more hard core libertarians), as well as related BLPs of a dozen plus economists, has been a battle ground since September 2012 when User:SPECIFICO started editing and even more so since April 2013 when User:Steeletrap started editing. Steeletrap has labeled Austrians who associated with the Mises Institute as "disreputable" and compared them to Scientologists; User:SPECIFICO has compared the "Mises gang" to "Multi-level marketing/vitamin supplement schemes". (See of full quotes and even more details at ].) Steeletrap has referred to SPECIFICO as a "colleague" and "collaborator". (Both state they have (SPECIFICO) or are working on (STEELETRAP) relevant academic degrees.) User:MilesMoney, who started editing July 2013, immediately jumped into many of the same articles and became an intense colleague/collaborator of SPECIFICO and Steeletrap. | |||
@] is heavily editing ] in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. ] (]) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
These editors use the fact that many articles have been sourced with too many primary sources as an excuse to search out and add overwhelmingly negative and inflammatory secondary source material. However, they challenge neutral and positive information from other secondary sources with nonsense rationales which one must discuss and often bring to noticeboards, over and over again - ''a huge disincentive to constructive editing''. (See related April to August discussions on the ] and ] talk pages). Also they misuse the article on links called ], as well as ''off-Misplaced Pages'' interpretations of the concept, as a means of sabotaging perfectly good WP:RS information from academics who have even the loosest of affiliations with the Mises Institute. ].) | |||
:That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits: | |||
These editors' biased and disruptive edit warring has angered a number of editors who have either dropped out of Misplaced Pages or, like myself, stopped editing articles where those editors are active. Users:Srich and Binksternet, who like me have their own idiosyncratic libertarian-oriented viewpoints, have kept working to make the articles comply with Misplaced Pages policy and especially to end the biased trashing of BLPs. Until the last month or so the Misplaced Pages community has failed to deal with repeated complaints, even though it frequently has banned less biased editors for relatively minor infringements. | |||
:* Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals. | |||
:* Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity. | |||
Users: Steeletrap and SPECIFICO have repeatedly inferred editors supporting NPOV articles are merely cultish apologists for these Austrians and libertarians. They take criticism of their editing bias as personal attacks, despite repeatedly being reminded of ]. Lately they, and MilesMoney, have repeated ad nauseam the charge of ] against me and other editors. They have engaged in harassing behaviors (see below). When brought to ANI they have responded overwhelmingly with unsupported allegations of others' bad behavior, while fiercely supporting each others' ad hominem attacks. | |||
:* - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted. | |||
:* Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing. | |||
:An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably ]. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. ] (]) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::done ] (]) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::@]: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly ] reasons for them. | |||
::#By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as ''"has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world"'' and ''"The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality"'' + ''"The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"?'' Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate ] and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a '''very''' strong statement cited to..., seemingly not even peer-reviewed. | |||
::#Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally ], and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. '''If''' that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, '''then''' it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it. | |||
::#Do you '''really''' think phrases like ''"China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments."'' are consistent with ]? '''Really?''' ''Maybe'' cutting '''all''' of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that. | |||
::# That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently . It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary. | |||
::In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably ]" seems downright ]. ] (]) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns ? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a ] and ] manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that ] is supposed to prevent. --] (]) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like ], you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't ''bad'' by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply ''not good enough'' or ''relevant enough'' for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards. | |||
::::Given ''this'' context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not ''obligated'' to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. ] (]) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @]'s paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @] provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/ | |||
:My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. ] (]) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::''Adding'': Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 ] (]) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*An editor with a declared COI should ''never'' be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the {{tq|strongly discouraged}} wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --] (]) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:] So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this {{redacted|]}}? | |||
*:Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that '''if''' is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering '''is not even seen anywhere on their front page''' - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as . The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. ] (]) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::{{tq|Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)}} - that would be wrong. See ]; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we ''want'' editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read ], and especially ] Having a ''perspective'' on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. ] editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then ] needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors. | |||
::::It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah ] editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that ''every'' edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it ''strictly'' barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --] (]) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's ''not'' the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change {{tq|strongly discouraged}} to {{tq|prohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism)}}. I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though. | |||
::::::Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be ''manually'' saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that {{tq|editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests}} - but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I ''need'' to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to ''this'' case, rather than a general statement. | |||
::::::Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{tqq|So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this}} Uh, guys? Does ] mean nothing to you? - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Below is a list of WP:ANI (including 3rr) reports just since April 2013 which illustrate the problems. (Those by Specifico or Steeletrap against other editors are illustrative of points made above.) Many relevant ], ], ], ] and other noticeboard entries can be found as well. | |||
*:@] - I think that '''sanction should be swiftly applied'''. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. ] ] 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: {{ping|InformationToKnowledge}}, '''do not''' attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with ''anyone's'' real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the ''principles of privacy'' still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. ] ] 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::Could we get an edit to ] for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. ] (]) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== ] back to Andrewjlockley === | |||
*], April 30, 2013. | |||
:I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. '''However''', that does not change the fact she has been one of a '''literal handful''' of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in ] over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen. | |||
*], May 24, 2013. | |||
:With that in mind, I would like to say I have '''great''' difficulty assuming ] here - not when the OP editor {{redacted|]}}, which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective '''and''' when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report. | |||
*], May 27, 2013. | |||
:I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the ], the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does. | |||
*], May 29, 2013. | |||
:P.S. This is '''really''' not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*], June 2, 2012. | |||
::With the greatest of respect @], your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @], or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether ] had a conflict of interest when they edited ], which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. ] (]) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*] (which was getting a sympathetic response til unsupported counter charges started flying), June 29, 2013. | |||
:::See ]... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself. | |||
*], leads admin to warn Steeletrap against allegations unsupported by evidence, and to warn Carolmooredc on losing her temper, which she admitted she had, July 27, 2013. | |||
:::All of this is pertinent. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*], August 1, 2013. | |||
::::I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that {{noping|EMSmile}} has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that {{noping|Andrewjlockley}} is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. ] concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too. | |||
*], September 20, 2013. | |||
::::The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If {{noping|InformationToKnowledge}} is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be ''they both should be'' though. | |||
*], September 20, 2013. | |||
::::Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. ] (]) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*], Sept 23, 2013. | |||
:::Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. ] ] 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*], September 24, 2013. | |||
::Please reread ], and especially ]. The suggestion that being a ''published academic on a subject'' constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of ], which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*], September 29, 2013. | |||
:::as per {{redacted|]}} is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech. | |||
*], October 16, 2013. | |||
:::Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. ] (]) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to ]. ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse. | |||
::: | |||
::: | |||
:::If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. ] (]) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of ] before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? ] (]) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::*Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for ] that arises as a result. | |||
::::::*With regards to ] has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the ). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner? | |||
::::::*AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for ''more'' SRM research in their day job {{redacted|encouragement of ]}}. Also, ] explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be ''against'' doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well? | |||
::::::*I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by ] on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides). | |||
::::::*Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). ] (]) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery or], but I'll respond anyway. | |||
::::::::I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm. | |||
::::::::Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way ] (]) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I wish to clarify the relationship between the (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG. | |||
:::::Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was , for ten years, and is the l. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is , one of five authors of , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of . By quick count, of the other 14 authors on , one other is on the governing board, at least eight are , at least two are , and one is among . | |||
:::::In the other direction, of ESG's , eight have signed the . | |||
:::::The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. ] (]) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::@], would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? ] ] 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine. | |||
::::::For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. ] (]) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an ''oversight'' on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
At what point does Misplaced Pages start dealing with such ]? When does it start looking at evidence of <u>] editing in possible ] relationships?</u> ''I believe Steeletrap, SPECIFICO and MilesMoney should be topic banned from all Austrian economics (and libertarianism-related) articles, especially Biographies of living or dead individuals.'' In the interim, <u>1rr should be applied</u> to as many of these affected articles as possible. '''] ''' 05:09, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. ] ] 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that {{user|EMsmile}} has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is '''also not on'''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::... gonna ask in talk page of ] if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point ] (]) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::], I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::{{ping|Liz}} the diff of them ''placing'' it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named ], then it constitutes ] (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at ] think it would be easier to avoid. | |||
*:::::opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases. | |||
*:::::alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? ] (]) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on ] of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant ] and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't ] people or contacting their employers. ] <sup>]</sup>] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
- Hey {{ping|Carolmooredc}} I just looked back at the details of your list. How are my AN comments on Srich's ''Requests for Closure'' called complaints by him about my behavior? Either you don't know what's in your own list, or you're deliberately trying to mislead readers here who don't know -- or have the time -- to check every word you write to see whether it happens to be true. Shame on you. And how foolish for you to expose yourself in such a way in view of the ANI community -- yet another time. You should show the community some honesty and strike through your false denigration of me (and Srich) and any other misstatements in your messages here. ]] 04:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:@] I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. ] <sup>]</sup>] 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding. | |||
*:::Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts. | |||
*:::BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point, | |||
*::::the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous. | |||
*::::AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. ] (]) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::I also wanted to question this block. I'm not familiar with all the applicable[REDACTED] rules and conventions, but if I found out that eg the Heritage Foundation had been paying a contractor to edit the climate change page, I would hope that editors would 1) question the contractor and their edits, and 2) separately write to the Heritage Foundation to ask what they were up to. The latter wouldn't qualify as harassment in my book, just a sensible response to a legitimate concern about the integrity of wikipedia. | |||
*:::::Fwiw I also don't think that EMsmile should be blocked because ultimately we don't know whether they were paid by ESG to push the ideological line of the NUA campaign. Given their long history as an editor, and the fact they conduct themselves with courtesy and decency, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. ] (]) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== Does Wikimedian in Residence apply? === | |||
:Do not insert inside others postings! Moved yours down. Reading those one can see that there is a tenditious debate going on. So I added Debate to vs. to clarify that. '''] ''' 05:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit[REDACTED] seems analagous to . See also ]. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no ]. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. ] (]) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? ] (]) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Carol, I agree with your general characterizations except that I am not the holder of "idiosyncratic libertarian-oriented viewpoints" unless classic American liberal viewpoints (such as strong government involvement in social programs) are now considered libertarian (which is not the case.) The only reason I'm involved at these articles is that I was told there was POV-warring in action, and when I went to decide for myself I saw that the report was correct. I don't like POV warriors on Misplaced Pages; I think the NPOV policy is what makes the whole encyclopedia so valuable. ] (]) 05:55, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. ] (]) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::: Binksternet, Thanks for clarification. '''] ''' 12:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:My situation is totally different to @]. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @] adjusting the page '''to favour her client''' (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. ] (]) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: Carol, I am only "biased" against the Mises Institute in the same sense a biologist is biased against creationism. They reject the scientific method in their models yet purport to be social scientists. The Mises scholars openly and honestly concede their fringe status. Hans Hoppe concedes that LvMI is regarded as dogmatic and pseudo-scientific by mainstream economists. Writes Hoppe, "It is this assessment of economics as an a priori science ... which distinguishes Misesians, from all other current economic schools. All the others conceive of economics as an empirical science, as a science like physics, which develops hypotheses that require continual empirical testing. ''And they all regard as dogmatic and unscientific Mises's view''." () | |||
::What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the ] article ]. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per ]. | |||
: We have to accurately represent the views of mainstream sources on Misplaced Pages, even if those paint a negative picture of Mises Institute thinkers. If you can find mainstream economics RS praising LvMI fellows, please add it to the article. However, I will continue to object to using primary sources and connected fringe secondary sources (i.e. other Mises fellows) to source the contributions of Mises scholars to economics. ] (]) 14:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding ]- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this. | |||
::: One example makes it clear how ''false and dishonest'' this response is. See Rothbard archive section on ] about Steeletrap's removal of neutral sourced info because SPECIFICO and STEELETRAP were trying to downgrade Rothbard from even being notable as an economist of the Austrian School and to remove the economist info box. | |||
::Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. ] (]) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::When there is a massive fight over something that absurdly biased, it can be quite discouraging to try to add the other WP:RS info one has on Rothbard and that was about the time I gave up. ''I still have a mass of NPOV/WP:RS info on my harddrive,'' but why bother if getting into the article a couple sentences ''that don't trash Rothbard'' (or the other subjects of other articles) lead to a massive talk page discussion and often visit to noticeboard(s) that takes 3 to 5 hours of fruitless discussion?? (Something I'd already gone through in ].) That's called disruptive POV editing and that's what Steeletrap especially, but SPECIFICO and MilesMoney as well, engage in. Others can read just how slimy the ] article is, much of the "dirt" inserted by Steeletrap, but supported by SPECIFICO/MilesMoney to see the editor doesn't care much about creating an NPOV encyclopedia. '''] ''' 18:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. ] (]) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: Carol, those "seven references" were deleted accidentally when I was trying to remove the word "economist" from the lede. I restored them immediately when the error is pointed out to me, and they have for months remained in the current article without objection. However, all the sources do is call Rothbard an "economist"; they do not describe his substantive work as an economist. Again, instead of making erroneous accusations which you will later have to correct (as you have ended up doing several times in the last month), you should try to improve the article by adding mainstream refs describing rothbard's substantive contributions to econ. ] (]) 18:33, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::: This is not true. In reply to my complaint about ] you wrote : '' I disagree. ] is not characterized as a "historian", despite teaching history and having a Ph.D, because he is not notable for work as a historian. Rothbard is not notable as an "economist" and should not be described as such in the lede. he is notable as a (fringe) political theorist and activist. Like Newt (for some time) with respect to history, economics is how Murray made a living, and (again like newt) the Ph.D a credential Murray cited to boost his credibility. The compromise text indicates that Murray had a Ph.D in econ and taught in Brooklyn and Vegas. Mentioning him as an "economist" of the "Austrian school" seems superfluous and subjective.'' Sounds like you wanted those seven refs out, doesn't it? '''] ''' 00:32, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::We have long had problems around Austrian economics. This is just a recent intensification. I wouldn't be surprised if it went to Arbcom. ] (]) 11:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
=== Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile === | |||
:::Indeed - see ] for some of the history around these articles. There have been strident POV pushers advocating the Austrian view and the Mises institute for a really long time. <b><font color="darkred">]</font></b> <font color="black">(])</font> 13:52, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::The list of Karmaisking socks is very revealing, especially when one scrutinizes the various usernames involved. - ]] 14:47, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::{Insert] Pro-Austrian Karmaisking was very active 4 or 5 years ago, as was anarcho-capitalist ] (who I always thought was the same person, but certainly had same interests and modus operandi). Until an influx of socks recently in the Rothbard article, I haven't seen much evidence of him the last couple years. But that was one or two persons operating as obvious Socks. I'm sure these are three different editors working closely together because of their differing styles. '''] ''' 17:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::: While ARBCOM is the court of last resort, I agree with you, ]. I've seen this particular feud spill over to a variety of noticeboards and when disputes are ideological in nature, compromise and consensus are not even goals for many participants. They seem to be all-of-nothing debates. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 17:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Complaints have been lodged by several editors at multiple noticeboards and WP:ANI multiple times. Admins do nothing. And now people are talking about taking the whole subject area to arbitration! Why do we even have an NPOV policy if admins can't even comment on obvious POV editing and only on behavior issues, which the offending editors always wiggle out of by making false and exaggerated claims against the complainants? I have a feeling ArbCom would not take this case and the problems would go on and on. I would be delighted if the whole area was put under 1RR, but Admins ''actually dealing with'' disruptive editors would save a lot of time and energy. '''] ''' 18:17, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::<s> Well, if by some convolution you can get an Editor labeled as holding a "fringe" point of view, they are then treated as if they are a troll and are likely to receive an indefinite block. It takes a bit of legwork and it isn't ethical but it sure seems to be an effective and quick way to get rid of the opposition. You only need one Admin to agree with you and it's faster than waiting for ARBCOM to render a verdict. But I don't think it's fair or justifiable and it misuses WP policy statements to achieve a certain result. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</s> | |||
:::::: I apologize for my ] remark. I'm very frustrated with the variable way that different Editors are treated on WP. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:40, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::FYI, assuming you were replying directly to my comment above, my complaint is editors who have such a strong negative POV ''against'' a topic and/or individuals related to it that they constantly search out and insert only the most negative information, put the most negative spin on it, and fight attempts to put in NPOV material from equal or better sources with absurd rationales for deletion. A few of us have come here and to various noticeboards over and over again and this issue has not been dealt with. The question from an uninvolved editor of how to deal with the ensuing edit warring started this thread. Those trying to remove or otherwise deal with this type of POV disruption are constantly reverted by the disruptors. I added a lot of diffs to illustrate the problem. By the way, ] would be interesting as mentioned by Mark Miller, but I'm too burnt out on these editors to initiate it myself. Certainly better than going to arbitration right off the bat. '''] ''' 16:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Yeah, Arbcom will almost always sanction the real disruptive users, but there's often a decent amount of "collateral damage" done to other parties, as well. ] (]) 18:28, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::: The main problem with DR and mediation, as I understand it, is that they are non-binding. You can go through the whole process and if you disagree with the results, there is no penalty from disregarding the whole proceedings. I think these methods can definitely help if all parties are more interested in resolving a dispute than in being right. But on many contentious topics, there is usually a "my way or no way" attitude. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:02, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
<s>Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. {{Noping|EMsmile}} is a paid editor who violated ] - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight ''are highly disruptive'' - and that's notwithstanding the ''paid editing.'' Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. </s> Proposal withdrawn. I think I was a bit hasty. Now supporting topic ban below. ] (]) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Let's tell the truth here, Carolmooredc. The only problem you illustrated with your diffs was that you chewed up a huge amount of WP resources with your long list of hostile ad hominem noticeboard complaints, none of which WP found to have any merit. A secondary problem is that you continue to cite these failed attacks as if they were vindication of your current round of ''ad hominem'' noisemaking. I greatly respected your voluntary withdrawal from the articles that have frustrated you recently, and I hope that you will resume your vacation if the environment here is too upsetting for you. While you've been hanging out on this ANI, good progress has been made with constructive edits at the vMI article. ]] 19:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::: It's mind-boggling that you seem to think that an Editor who is burned out from constant arguing and so just quits the discussion is a good result. The goal is not to drive away those who believe differently from yourself or "wear them down". When Misplaced Pages content is determined by the "last Editor standing" mentality, it's really a sign that there is something wrong with the project. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::: Dear Liz. I didn't say it was good that she got so upset that she behaved destructively and therefore improved things by leaving. In fact I made it clear that IF she felt so frustrated it was good for her to take a breather. I consider your message to me uncivil, maybe a PA, and I ask you to do the right thing and retract it, so all the Admins watching this page can see you're a good egg. Thanks. ]] 20:11, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Worn down is an apt descriptor for a long list of issues that easily can be reviewed at talk pages of ], ], ], among others. Any experienced editors easily can see what was going on. Liz has nothing to apologize for - and WP:ANI is the kind of place such issues, generally and specifically, are allowed to be freely discussed. (Including noting that "fringe" can be just another way people who have different viewpoints held by one set of academics can try to dismiss those subjects of articles who challenge them and editors who try to keep articles NPOV.) '''] ''' 23:39, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::: Carol, Mises scholars ''acknowledge they are fringe''; they proudly reject mainstream theory and the scientific method. So this isn't a mater of "some academics" going after others out of vindictiveness. Treating fringe sources differently than mainstream sources in non-negotiable. Fringe views can be "right" once in a blue moon, but we have to abide by policy whether or not you think Rothbard's views are sound. ] (]) 00:57, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::Please support such allegations with quotes. '''] ''' 19:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::: Prominent contemporary Misesian and LvMI Distinguished Fellow Hans-Hermann Hoppe, who I have quoted a bazillion times in this regard, says "It is this assessment of economics as an a priori science ... which distinguishes Misesians, from all other current economic schools. All the others conceive of economics as an empirical science, as a science like physics, which develops hypotheses that require continual empirical testing. ''And they all regard as dogmatic and unscientific Mises's view''." () Again, you can believe they're "right" and everyone else wrong, but we go off of mainstream sources on wikipedia, and are required to treat fringe sources differently. ] (]) 20:46, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::I don't see this one individual using the word "fringe" but I do see you making a huge leap from one person's statement to characterizing a lot of others as having the exact same position and labeling it a "fringe" one. Sounds like original research to me. '''] ''' 01:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{od}}Good evening, {{ping|Carolmooredc}}. While you're here, I left you a message below, would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks. ]] 01:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:'''<s>Oppose block, support ]ing EMS for almost ], ]ing AJL for aggressive interactions</s>, warning ITK for ].'''- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy. | |||
=== Proposal, general sanctions === | |||
:the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically ] suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group ] (]) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Given the above discussion, the observation arbcom cases often end up imposing ] sanctions on affected area, and the ability of the community to do functionally the same thing (with a lot less bureaucratic pixelwork). I propose: | |||
::From ] {{tq|WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages}} - this seems not to be the case here. ] (]) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working on a page within the topic of Austrian Economics, if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, ], or the ]. | |||
:::like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias. | |||
:::want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi applies] (]) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by ] - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. ] (]) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. {{U|Bluethricecreamman}} has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether {{U|EMsmile}} was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. ] (]) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:: Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. ] (]) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:* '''Oppose''' this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see ] apologize for the ] that occurred. ] (]) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:*:I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. ] (]) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:*'''Strong oppose''' <small>(uninvolved)</small> there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in ''simple ignorance'' (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not ]). | |||
::That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, '''it fails a DUCK test''', and ''looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor''. What I see is a properly disclosed ] editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. ''These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors.'' Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't ] going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :] ] 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: <small>((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above)</small> 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, ''otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month'', 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that ''AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI.'' They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including ''very questionable'' off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where ] was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT ''recent'' contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a '''grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI''' (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month ''for over 11 years'')... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either ] or ]. ] ] 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Maybe everyone gets ]s at this point and we move on? ] (]) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats. | |||
:::::However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for '''potential civil-POV'' which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like might come off is overly whitewashing, but {{tq|China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.}} but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does <u>call into need for a closer look</u>, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. ] ] 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group | |||
::mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. ] (]) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* '''Strong support'''. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, ] applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that ] only ''strongly discourages'' paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --] (]) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose and IMO unthinkable''' They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
(Wording is lifted from the MMA sanctions at ]). <small>]</small> 20:30, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:{{tq|made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit}}: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.<br>I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. ] (] · ]) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::Personally, I am much more concerned about '''un'''declared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet ] . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. ] (]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::I meant meat puppet. ] (]) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*<s>'''Tentative oppose''' - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</s> | |||
:*Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates''' with no opinion on indef block at this time. | |||
From what I can see, looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the ]: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide (emphasis in the original). | |||
*'''Support''' I think this is definitely merited. ] (]) 20:49, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination: | |||
*'''Support''' ] (]) 20:53, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA. | |||
<del>*'''Oppose''' The above complaints have been heavy on rhetoric but remarkably thin on evidence. Administrators are our peers; they, like us, are subject to contextual biases and incompetencies. This is a very dangerous power to invest them with, and much better evidence than the vague unspecific charges made by previous users is needed to support it. The fact that the admins above -- including one, ], who previously falsely declared ] a "sockpuppet" on the basis of no hard evidence (Adj's claim that was dismissed, but exacted a heavy tole on Miles' reputation) -- just "take his word for it" above is indicative of the risks of arbitrary and capricious admin conduct. ] (]) 22:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</del>. '''Support''' My remarks above notwithstanding, the conduct of problematic users on these pages -- specifically Binksternet and Carolmooredc -- has only gotten more vitriolic in the past several days, in terms of edit-warring (in Bink's case) and PAs (in Carol's case). ] (]) 23:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary. | |||
::Two thoughts: 1. If the SS SPI is as false and baseless as you say it is, people will see right through it and it won't hurt your friend's reputation. 2. If, on the other hand, it is damaging to MilesMoney's reputation, then might I suggest that continuing to bring it up in public venues like ANI isn't doing Miles any favors. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 16:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with ] , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of ]. | |||
:::But thanks to Steeletrap for ] so editors can be aware for future reference. Editors should not be attacked for bringing up well documented suspicions of Sock puppetry, even if it does not sufficiently pass the ] as the closing admin said. It's definitely a check on such behavior if it is in fact true. '''] ''' 17:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil. | |||
*'''Oppose''' I have little familiarity with this rubric, or why it appears to have been implemented in a short list of articles. Wouldn't it be better to open a separate thread about this and to notify at least the talk page of every article which would be affected. This seems like a big decision for us to make just on the occasion of having assembled here to discuss a much narrower issue of 1RR/Protection on a single article. I recommend opening a separate thread if you feel strongly about pursuing this idea. ]] 21:03, 19 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose added ]] 22:21, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' At first look, MMA Sanctions sounds like Martial Law. Frankly, I don't see more than one or two Admins who have shown any familiarity with these articles or the behavioral issues which might be identified. Let's see some more Admin involvement in a constructive mode (I am pleased to say that we've seen some very recently -- thanks.) If there's a problem here, the solution is not to grant more power to the Admins, it's to benefit from more attention and involvement from/by them. By the time 1RR or MMA are enforced, there's going to be a much larger use of scarce Admin time and effort than there would be from occasional oversight and guidance, in my opinion. ]] 22:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "{{tq|And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.}}." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "{{tq|That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page.}}" Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client. | |||
*'''Strongly Oppose''' I encountered this policy on ], where it did absolutely no good at all. It won't work here, either, and the harmful effects will only make things worse. Absolutely terrible idea. ] (]) 22:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' Assuming it’s been done elsewhere before and worked. Otherwise maybe fast track to ArbCom. In either case, the issues and policy violations are often clear enough that once brought to the appropriate noticeboard any truly neutral admin who bothers to take ten minutes to review them will know what proper action to take. '''] ''' 00:05, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Observation''' In the context of these articles about ] it is interesting to see which editors prefer to impose increased hierarchical authority and which editors prefer to bolster endogenous collaberation. ]] 00:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::The pattern is easily explained: those who have failed to be convincing are the ones who want to bring in authorities to override their opponents. ] (]) 01:14, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:'''Support'''. Seems to be an entirely sensible proposal. Let's leave ArbCom as the ''last'' resort, which is where it is always supposed to be. - ] (]) 01:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::'''@Sitush''' - To oppose this proposal is ''not'' to favor arbcom. Opposing this is to reject the statist authoritarian solution of general sanctions. ]] 01:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support'''. NE Ent, that is a great suggestion. I don't think anyone working neutrally on the encyclopedia will object to what is presented as a very fair but fairly quick form of behavior management. Who would object to an administrator warning an editor then blocking that editor if the disruptive behavior continues? It's a good proposal. ] (]) 02:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Was that intended to be a rhetorical question? I ask, because a few of us already object and for good reason. ] (]) 02:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' The level of discourse recently in regard to myriad disagreements about the ] include responses like: | |||
:* | |||
:* | |||
:* | |||
:* | |||
:Edit summaries refer to other edits as , and promote a battleground mentality (e.g. ). Edit-warring has been going on daily by many of the editors involved in this discussion. To their credit, the some recent discussions like ] and ] seem fairly productive. But given the quality of editing behavior, I have very little faith that the involved editors can work things out on most issues on this or other articles via consensus-building or even through ]. ]] 02:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::'''As a libertarian''', {{reply to|I JethroBT}}, I distrust increasing the power and privilege of central authority at the expense of local autonomy. I have rarely seen WP Admins step into these flare-ups -- for example when Carolmooredc was doing her round-the-world-tour of Noticeboards she proudly cites above -- and administer discipline or even offer effective guidance. Otherwise we would not see her and Binksternet continue their personal attacks and equivocations here in the current thread. It's a sad commentary on due process here when they feel free to display such behavior with impunity right here in the most conspicuous place where Admins are watching. Why should we now believe that the same Admins who could have nipped this behavior in the bud are the ones to whom we should give this extraordinary governmental power, akin to Martial Law? Moreover, I'll repeat the following until I hear some responses on the point: If such sanctions were to be imposed on an entire category of related articles, the discussion of that decision must be announced to all the affected articles in the category. Otherwise we have the central authority taking this extraordinary prerogative without consulting the affected parties. That should concern not only us libertarians but all editors who care about open process and representative decision-making. ]] 03:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::{{replyto|SPECIFICO}} Contacting editors on the relevant articles doesn't sound unreasonable to me, given the broad nature of the sanctions, though putting a notice on all 49 articles is probably a bit much. Are there any objections if I or others post something like the following on the talk pages of some of the more highly-watched articles?: | |||
::::''You are invited to comment on discussion occurring on ] over the implementation of discretionary sanctions across articles related to Austrian Economics.'' | |||
:::I think your point about whether to defer to local autonomy in matters of consensus-building/article maintenance as opposed to granting it to an authority is a fair concern, and I think letting others look into this situation should be encouraged. However, I am personally less inclined to support that idea when it's clear the same pattern of interaction, accusations, and general pettiness has repeatedly emerged amongst the local autonomy across similar topics. ]] 04:24, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Even in arbitration cases like ], templates about the arbitration decision are placed on articles only by editors as they choose to do so, and some have gone for a couple years without them ''until a problem arises'' and someone thinks to put one on. I think that could be applied here as well in this more informal case, with people putting a to-be-created standard template on articles having or likely to have a problem, as they so choose. If it is ''not'' a 1rr situation, the standard template for the top of the talk page should be sufficient. There is no need to run around and tell editors, though if they come to the page and start creating problems they should be reminded to read the templates on the top of the page. '''] ''' 05:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' - I reviewed how the Standard Discretionary Sanctions at ] went and concluded that they were effective and beneficial. Several of the same players that were there are now in this area too and so there's good reason to expect the same benefit. (I did wonder, "Can we do this??", and of course the answer is, "Yes per ]/] we can do whatever we determine there is consensus to do.") My only '''quibble''' is whether "Sanctions may be appealed to ... <u>the ]</u>" should be in the wording{{emdash}}if ArbCom didn't actually enact the SDS at this article, how would an appeal to them be in their jurisdiction? I think we'd either need to make sure they'll agree to take these sorts of appeals, or remove them from the list of appeal routes. Otherwise I think this will be helpful. <code>]]</code> 03:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::'''@Zad68''' - Unlike at Ayn Rand, the sanctions proposed here would affect roughly 50 articles. How do you justify proposing such a step without even notifying the talk pages or active editors on 49 of those articles. It's like taxation without representation. It is tyranny. ]] 03:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::You say "effective", I say "heavy-handed", "chilling" and "generally counterproductive". The article is effectively frozen. It took days, and admin intervention, just to remove some nonsense that was inserted. That's what happens when you point guns at everyone: nobody moves. Now magnify that by 50 and you have a complete disaster. ] (]) 03:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::SPECIFICO and MilesMoney really are over-dramatizing of the "tyranny" of the proposal here, and by two editors highly involved in the various Austrian disputes. While obviously some of these articles will be looked at immediately because of current issues still on noticeboards, in general admins tend to wander over only if an issue is brought to a noticeboard or WP:ANI/3rr, or an editor asks one individually to take a look. We don't have bands of roving admins trolling for bad behavior to correct. '''] ''' 05:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::With all due respect, these sanctions only get in the way of editors who are actively working to improve articles. This does not describe you, at least not in regard to the articles I edit, so I'm not surprised that you don't feel in any way encumbered. | |||
:::::I would appreciate it, though, if you recognized these differences in our circumstances and therefore didn't overgeneralize from your personal experiences or trivialize mine. Lots of things look better from the outside than the inside. ] (]) 14:35, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::It's my understanding of ] that any sanctions on English Misplaced Pages is appealable to them, so the proposed general sanction statement is simply acknowledging that policy rathering than creating it. In other words, any sanctions would be appealable to the committee, regardless of whether the sanctions statement said that or not. <small>]</small> 11:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Hello {{ping|NE Ent}}. I've just looked up the articles which are in the categories included in your proposal -- Paleo-libertarianism, Austrian Economics, Libertarian Organizations, Libertarian publications, etc. There are hundreds. That means there are at least 1000 involved editors, even allowing for duplication across articles. I'd like to hear why you think the decision to impose G.S. on so many articles should be made by this group on this board. Frankly I'd be surprised if this group actually has the authority to do so. Have you researched that? Thanks. {{unsigned|date=October 2013}} | |||
::::The number of affected articles is a red herring. If the subject area is problematic (which it is) then some sort of mechanism needs to be put into place, despite the squeals of opposition that not surprisingly all seem to be emanating from one "side" of this subject area. The general sanctions imposed on Indian castes affected far more articles and editors than this proposal will ever likely do. - ] (]) 18:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Like I said, even if all those articles were the ones proposed (and I'm not sure if it's that broad), the to-be-created template only needs to be put on those where there really is a problem and admin attention needed and editors only warned if they start violating policy. '''] ''' 19:23, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{od}}{{ping|Carolmooredc}}, please name the articles to which the GS would apply or the list of names which you endorse. I hope it goes without saying that they will only be in effect in articles on which there's a template. If you name which articles you propose to list, then we can notify the editors of those articles to get their input. Otherwise, this will be viewed as a power-grab by authoritarian central goverment without notice or recourse and will undermine the legitimacy of WP community governance. As a libertarian I find it alarming the willingness with which a small group here is willing to consider unilaterally abridging the activities of others. Please state which articles you endorse placing under GS. Thanks. ]] 22:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Ask the originator what his/her thoughts are and others who've been involved in broad areas which have ''not'' been defined by ArbCom how that works. '''] ''' 01:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Hello Carolmooredc. I'm not understanding you. I have been asking those who support General Sanctions to specify which articles those sanctions would apply to. If it's more than just Mises.org, I also have asked whether they feel comfortable not inviting the involved editors on those articles to participate in this discussion. I know you have a lot of experience here and tend to have strong opinions, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, if you'd care to share them. ]] 01:28, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::As I've said or inferred elsewhere, but some will badger others...Whatever articles in the topic area need it, as determined by editors. IMHO, more specifically, whatever ones you and Steeletrap have been working on in this area where people detect and protest biased, WP:Undue and even vitriolic editing meant only to discredit the individual/institution in question. '''] ''' 05:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I looked at ] last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics '''written 73% of the article''', in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing. | |||
*'''Support''' - This seems to be a very sane proposal to bring some stability to these articles, and it will not stand in the way of collegial editing which has been in short supply in this topic area. Article protection has not worked, so this would seem to be utile alternative. On a tangential note, the next editor that insinuates that another editor is incompetent should be roundly sanctioned. Competence is not the same as subject matter expertise, nor should it be used to shamefully disparage editors who have made substantial, quality contributions in a diverse range of topics. - ]] 19:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
<small>I added the paragraph below to my comment at around the same time as EMSmile's response below</small> | |||
* '''REQUEST FOR INFORMATION''' This question is addressed to OP for this section and those who '''Support''' the proposed GS. Please state which WP articles your proposal would place under GS? They could be indicated either by a list of titles or a list of categories. To my mind, this proposal, as stated, is either incompletely defined or extraordinarily far-reaching. As a libertarian, I am reminded of the prior discussions of the Patriot act and the US invasion of Iraq in the last decade. Ill-defined discussion and partial or incorrect information led to a precipitous increase in governmental authority and action. Let's understand exactly what is on the table here. Could OP of this proposal or one if its supporters please define the scope of the GS -- explicitly and unambiguously. If it were only to apply to, say Mises Institute, Rothbard, and 4H, that is a much more tractable decision than if we are talking about the hundreds of articles directly related to Austrian economics, publications, scholars, institutions, and to paleo-libertarian, anarcho-capitalist and other right-libertarians. Thanks. I think that a specific proposal will help clarify this discussion. ]] 21:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
ESG, like many non-profits, probably wants to help Misplaced Pages but needs guidance on our rules. It is very common for non-profits to see Misplaced Pages as a form of social media presence and to want to leverage Misplaced Pages to build their brand. Brand-building is not where the opportunity is on Misplaced Pages. The opportunity is to improve Misplaced Pages articles in the organization's area of expertise using top-quality sources. A best outcome for all this would be for EMSmile to stop the COI edits and then work with ESG to pivot the project in a more productive direction. | |||
::There is nothing unusual in sanctions covering a generally defined set of pages -- often sanctions are for "X and related pages", sometimes with "broadly construed" thrown in to show that the scope is ''not'' narrow. ] and all its sub-categories combined appear to have around 120 articles, so it isn't a very big slice of the wiki overall. If an editor engages in problematic behavior on one of the affected pages and is warned for it, they ought to take the hint and avoid that behavior in general. Edit warring, personal attacks, etc., are unacceptable regardless of the level of enforcement. --] (]) 16:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Strongly Oppose''' "...any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process..." is a completely vague criteria for banning an Editor or Admin. It's what WP calls "weasel words". It could simply mean if someone raises objections and doesn't immediately back down, they could feasibly be blocked. I also these DS applied unfairly to users who challenge mainstream views. DS shouldn't be used to silence minority viewpoints, whether or not they are considered "fringe". | |||
: The best part of this statement is that "uninvolved administrators" should be taking action. If this statement is adopted, that should be highlighted. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 22:27, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Addressing some questions in the above: Yes, we can do this, see table of ]. Given this page has around watchers, this is hardly a ''dead of night covert operation.'' As to which articles constitute "Austrian Economics" -- I don't know and I don't care. (The usual ArbCom weasel words are "broadly construed." ) The simple matter is there are {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}} active users on Misplaced Pages, and most of them show sufficient maturity and compromise to work things out. Frequently there will be individual editors who don't "get" the wiki way and have to be admin sanctioned, and occasionally things get heated among a group of editors sufficiently that community input / admin help is appropriate. But when the same area keeps hitting the ] boards over and over (as documented above), the standard response is some sort of discretionary sanctions, whether community or committee imposed. Admin / dispute resolution volunteer time is a limited resource, and this maximizes it's effectiveness.<small>]</small> 02:11, 21 October 2013 (UTC)<br> | |||
:'''{{ping|NE Ent}}''' -- I appreciate your taking the time to reply. I would differ with you on one point. The list of failed noticeboard complaints cited by User:Carolmooredc above only illustrates her own frustration and inability to accept the reasoned views of other editors she encounters on certain subjects. Those threads were all evaluated by the community and her complaints were rejected, even as her tone became more strident and her statements less documented. I respect your good faith effort to do the right thing here, but I would hope you'd agree with me that it's important that, as the one who made a far-reaching proposal, you also feel a responsibility to familiarize yourself with the facts and history of these specific articles and conflicts. It can't be good policy to apply a "standard response" to every situation without taking a closer look. Most importantly, despite the truly outrageous behavior of a very small number of editors on these articles over the years, they have continued to improve. Dramatically so in the past year, in fact. Frankly, as I've said before, I have see only a few fine Admins who have stepped in and offered constructive input or guidance in these articles. It's hard for me, as a libertarian, to infer that we should centralize more power in the hands of those who have not shown very much interest or commitment in this area to date. I hope you will take the time to review the history of the Mises Institute, Austrian School, or Rothbard articles over the past year or two. Thanks. ]] 02:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC) <br> | |||
'''RE: Definite support for Request for Arbitration''': .NE Ent, thanks for further comments. <s>But it seems that now that Liz, an uninvolved editor, (and others?) have opposed the proposal, we must consider if WP:ANI taking over an ArbCom is unprecedented. The two specific examples mentioned herein are ] and evidently an Arbitration regarding Indian castes. (I couldn’t find it myself.)</s> However, all the support for some sort of oversight/sanctions here would encourage ArbCom to take seriously an Arbitration Request to deal with the issues in the articles in question, broadly construed. (Or narrowly to those which certain editors decree are so fringe NPOV doesn’t apply any more?) ] more carefully which has ample examples of ANI imposing general sanctions.] '''] ''' 02:28, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:'''THANKS CAROL''' - Glad to see you now agree with my point that this ANI is not empowered to place General Sanctions. I am so sad that you couldn't hear it when I said it repeatedly above and wouldn't even think about it until you heard it from somebody else. I'm also bewildered that nobody else here -- longtime editors or Admins -- agreed with Liz and me until your awakening. This is an immediate example of the danger of giving excessive authority to well-meaning but sometimes-fallible governing entities. ]] 02:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I'm only stating problems, not changing my mind that ''some sort of general sanction'' might be one way to deal with the issue. However, as I stated in my listing above, the problem is that two/three editors constantly work to discredit the ones they don’t like through their edits and frustrate the efforts of other editors to counter their bias by removing the three two/three editors biased material or putting in neutral information. I think at least two of them should be topic banned by an editor now and there would be no need to go to ArbCom. '''] ''' 05:07, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Specifico/Carolmooredc, {{user|Liz}} has opposed some of the wording but not, it seems, the underlying principle. And you are wrong to suggest that the community lacks the power to establish sanctions via ANI. - ] (]) 10:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::: ], I might have made a mistake here. I see a reference in the proposal to ] (Discretionary Sanctions) but then I see individuals refer to "General sanctions". I've read the ARBCOM page on community sanctions but its not clear to me whether Discretionary and General Sanctions differ in a) the scope of the topic area, b) the consequences of the sanction, c) who judges an individual to have violated a sanction and d) whether a single Admin or there is a community consensus to impose the sanctions. | |||
::::: My unease is with Discretionary Sanctions as I have seen them applied over the past few months. They don't seem equally applied to Editors on both sides of a dispute. I'm not sure if it is the way the sanctions are worded or how Admins use them but they seem biased against Editors who take a particular stance, not on disruptive behavior. For example, regarding the Pseudoscience DS, I see sanctions imposed on those who are sympathetic to alternative theories and not imposed on potentially disruptive behavior by those who are skeptics and I see questionable behavior by Editors on both sides of this dispute. Whether you think this bias is or is not justified, I think bias shouldn't be perpetuated in additional sanctions on other subjects. | |||
::::: I'd support sanctions if they were worded to focus on behavior and not on ideology, that is, if they took a neutral stance on the subject of the articles. Additionally, Admins who are involved in editing in the subject area should not be the ones who judge that sanctions need to be enforced or the ones who impose blocks. It should not be a hardship to find another Admin to take these actions. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 19:14, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::{] seems to work quite well and that is the one with which I am most familiar. I have no ideological stake in this Austrian economics thing: aside from a few maintenance edits to '']'' over the last few hours (I have that book, never read it!), my only involvement has been a procedural (NPA) spat with MilesMoney that has also taken place over the last few hours. And since I have now joined the growing group of people who are banned from MM's talk page, the one-way "censorship" should go some way to limiting further such episodes. - ] (]) 19:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Sitush, you have not been "forced to endure" this discussion. Your participation has been voluntary. One reason it's so long is editors' tendency to add or substitute a lot of off-topic venting here. ]] 22:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I know ANI can impose Sanctions on individuals. I just haven't seen it done on a broad swath of articles and was looking for examples. Again, why I have not dropped support, just emphasized ArbCom. MY APOLOGIES for not reading ] more carefully. I see ANI imposed sanctions on a range of articles. So I agree it's time to close this with a determination of what to do...'''] ''' 12:08, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{ec}} See for one example. This all falls under ]. - ] (]) 12:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' - because it would (in theory) enforce the ] cycle with which most editors involved in this topic area have generally managed to comply. Only those ] of collegial discussion (who have instead resorted to ad-hom rants, personal attacks, misquoting and bullying) should have anything to fear from the promise to sanction those who ''"repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages"'' (being collegial, voluntary editing in good faith, free of personal attacks). Institute it and enforce it with an iron fist with regard to ] and ] and this topic area will soon be free of its biggest problem. Then get back to work providing independent sources for those sometimes entirely unsourced, fan-club-written (or autobiographical) hagiographies that some have tried to "protect". ]] 03:41, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I would suggest that the biggest problem isn't behavior in the sense of rudeness, it's behavior in the form of ]. There are clear examples where a question is asked and satisfactorily answered, but the answer is ignored and an edit war or shouting match ensues. | |||
::This is not something any amount of admin threats or beatings can fix, because admins could only detect this if they first had a working knowledge of economics and a familiarity with the specifics of these issues. It's a dispute about content, so a deep understanding of the content is absolutely necessary. Anything short would result in injustices. Treating this content dispute as a behavioral problem will only make it one. ] (]) 04:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I know junior high school students who can identify bullying and harassment; that doesn't take an economics degree. I'm sure even our least experienced admins could handle it. Once those editors who don't understand the subject have been <u>forced</u> to discuss it (instead of attacking others) they'll either do so, refuse to do so or revert to attacking others and will be blocked. Then we can return to the broadly collegial effort and highly productive editing that saw a string of COI LvMI articles go from entirely unsourced or very-poorly-sourced to incredibly-well-sourced in a very short period of time before being "protected from attack" by clueless bullies. ]] 04:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Let's face it, some some individuals of various political leanings are terrified that the Ron Paul/Rand Paul etc libertarian wing of the Republicans will take the election in 2016 and they are doing their best to trash the Mises-related people who influence/associate with them in any fashion. They focus on trashing the articles of some who have shown bad judgement in shooting off their mouths in an abrasive fashion ("libertarian macho flash") and then make sure all the other articles emphasize the close relationship of other individuals to the individuals and groups in the most trashed articles. It's a typical "I don't have an argument so I'll trash them with name calling" strategy. Those of us who are disgusted by it - and especially because it is against the spirit of Misplaced Pages - have and/or will continue to fight back and thus problems will continue as long as these editors are allowed to edit these articles. '''] ''' 05:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::*], that comment has nothing to do with mine so I've out-dented it, but the irony and hypocrisy are staggering. Your entire ''modus operadi'' in this subject area for the past six months has been focused on trashing editors with name calling (or deliberate misquoting) for lack of a cohesive argument. I came here to ANI months ago to defend you and argue that your actions were those of a frustrated/confused editor acting in good faith. Oh, how I paid for my defence of you - bullied, attacked, deliberately misquoted and deliberately misinterpreted by you and all for suggesting that unsourced hagiographies deserved some independent sources. Feel free to be disgusted. ]] 06:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Carol, the articles SPECIFICO and I haven't "vandalized" are typically disgusting violations of WP:NPOV. Take the '''high quality''' (read: cult-approved) BLP for ] article, which is sourced to nothing other than fringe LvMI co-workers, and claims on the basis of no evidence that this Mises fellow "served a crucial role as a leading public intellectual." (The lead paragraph alone is enough to make any remotely neutral editor vomit.) | |||
::As to your conspiracy theories about politics, it strikes me as quite unlikely that the electoral prospects of the Ron/Rand Paul movement will be affected by whether Misplaced Pages forthrightly presents the fringe nature of Rothbardian "punishment" (read: torture) or "monetary" (read: 100% PURE GOLD BULLION) theory. It is already known that Ron Paul is an evolution denialist and a climate change denialist, so the fringe economics likely wouldn't scare off supporters, or come as a surprise to detractors. | |||
::Also, among politicians, the Misesian economics is hardly new to the Pauls. Ronald Reagan subscribed to the "Freeman" and the Foundation For Economic Education, and even publicly fetishized the gold standard. He just didn't implement any of this stuff because his (right-wing) economists told him: "Listen up, bozo: This stuff you're obsessed with is stupid, cultish, and has no evidence behind it." The same, mark my words, will happen if Rand Paul becomes President. He'll throw rhetorical red meat to the cult now and then, but he'll never implement the "freedom philosophy" because everyone (Right and Left) who has studied economics will tell him doing so would drive the economy into "free" fall. ] (]) 05:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::As I've said many times, it's one thing to clean up an article with issues you describe and add NPOV info, including critical info. It's something else to emphasize adding highly negative material in a WP:Undue fashion while frustrating others' attempts to add NPOV material. After fights on three articles where I tried to do so, I just gave up editing the ones the three editors in question work on. I can't help but speculate on reasons for this extreme animus, but I don't think it's related primarily to improving the encyclopedia. '''] ''' 12:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::<s>Stuck: This is going around and around and around ''with absolutely no progress'' because of so many side-issues. Many comments are simply about the topic of Austrian economics and not about editing. Other comments are simply about editor behavior. I suggest this be closed without further action</s>. -- – ] (]) 05:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC) Note: pseudo-admin stuck template removed. – ] (]) 15:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC) Some more useful commentary is popping up. Striking stuck remark. – ] (]) 18:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Please don't do this sort of pseudo-admin thing, Srich. I've left you a note on your talk. - ] (]) 10:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
A ] has been posted. – ] (]) 06:07, 21 October 2013 (UTC) I've asked that the ANRFC be closed as resolved. – ] (]) 18:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I disagree that this discussion is hopelessly un-close-able. In fact I think a careful reader can tell the difference between the outside commentators !voting on the appropriateness of the suggested sanctions, and the involved editors sidetracking the conversation here with the same sort of stuff happening at the article that the sanctions are intended to help fix. <code>]]</code> 12:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support'''. I suspect this may end up at ArbCom anyway because several of the editors involved seem to have developed highly negative on-wiki relationships, which they pursue on their user talk pages, other users' talk pages, at ANI, etc. Clamping down on this topic alone probably won't stop that. But it is a reasonable step that covers one of the most disputed areas among them. --] (]) 16:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' As RL0919 says, this may well end up at ArbCom, but whether or not it does we need something now. ] (]) 16:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support'''. I generally agree with Stalwart111 above (although I dislike the "iron fist" phrasing). This proposal should curb the worst of the behaviour in the topic area. I have the same doubts as Zad68 about the Arbcom review wording, however. As far as I am aware, Arbcom generally doesn't get involved with sanctions imposed by the community, so at the very least we shouldn't ask them to review sanctions made here without asking them about it first and getting their agreement. — ''''']''''' <sup>]</sup> 13:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Note''' for anyone who wants to contribute to the discussion or is reviewing for close: The discussion about general sanctions has continued below in the subsection titled ]. --] (]) 16:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hello ], we know each other well from working on the same articles as part of ]. My client for the project under discussion here is the "Earth System Governance Foundation" (not the project (] (which is an alliance), nor the concept ] itself). So when you say that I should "immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder", then who do you mean? Strictly speaking it would be the "Earth System Governance Foundation". They don't have a Misplaced Pages article about themselves, neither do they have a website. | |||
====Sub-proposal: Require administrators who evaluate/sanction editors to be educated in economics==== | |||
:FWIW: If you look at the history of two articles that you mentioned: ] and ], then I think you can see that I actually made them a lot better, not worse (compared with their versions from about early July last year). I added better sources and more nuanced content, including criticism and debates. If there are still unsourced, overly promotional statements in there, then this needs to be addressed (probably best on the talk pages or with direct edits of course). | |||
{{archivetop|status=Not happening|result=It's admin 101 that editors functioning as admins are not expected to be subject matter experts, ] closing <small>]</small> 02:16, 21 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
:FYI: The Earth System Governance Project is “a global research network that aims to advance knowledge at the interface between global environmental change and governance. The network connects and mobilizes scholars from the social sciences and humanities researching at local and global scales.” It is not an advocacy group. It is not my client nor employer. There is also no official/legal/formal connection between the ESG Foundation and the ESG Project. | |||
*''' Support''' If the main proposal does pass, I believe ''administrators'' scrutinizing the LvMI related pages should have to have ''substantial education/expertise in economics'' (''specific'' self-description of one's educational/employment background in this regard would count as sufficient "proof" of this). Having an admin who doesn't know about economics evaluating the "neutrality" of these articles would be like me evaluating quantum mechanics related entries; said admin's judgments might as well be a product of "hunches" and tea leaf reading. Only an admin that can distinguish ] from ] economics can understand the meaning of, and therefore sanction users for violations of, policies like NPOV in the context of Mises-institutes articles, which relate to fringe economists/economics. ] (]) 20:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:If a topic ban was imposed, would such a topic ban for me for ] apply only to the duration of this particular consultancy or for life? Also a topic ban from ]? Would I still be allowed to propose changes on the talk pages? And would the ban stop when my consultancy stops (likely in a few months), or be there for life? | |||
:Just to clarify for those following this ANI: the bulk of my 60 000 edits were done in a volunteer capacity; and a certain proportion (it would be hard to estimate exactly what proportion) was done for different clients (they are mentioned on my profile page). Those clients are all mission-aligned and are not for profits or even corporations. I have no "agenda" that I am pushing. All I want to do is improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles in the area of climate change and sustainable development. A lot of my work is actually just about readability improvements. | |||
:Also just to clarify: when I mentioned "personal attacks" in that post that you, Clayoquot, linked to, I wasn't referring to attacks ''in this thread'' but I meant AJL's aggressive/confrontational comments on my talk page, and also on the talk page of SRM. It felt like a personal attack when someone writes on my talk page "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down. I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client." ] (]) 17:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't ] or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are ], which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.{{pb}}Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact , which states that {{tq|he Earth System Governance Foundation also serves as legal representative of the Earth System Governance research community.}} This is hardly what I would call "no official/legal/formal connection". ] (] · ]) 18:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:yeah, thats clearly a COI vio. let's report to ], or something else. EMS, it does not matter you made an article better, or are unbiased... COI's destroy the appearance of neutrality. ] (]) 18:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::did report to ] ] (]) 18:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::It does matter (which doesn't mean I agree that they ''do'' make the article better -- that's outside my expertise). Just a point of order: we ''do'' allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive. I understand there are some editors who will say things like "editing with a COI is not allowed", but that's flatly incorrect in policy terms. It's not in the spirit of a Wikipedian-in-Residence program, but if EMsmile claims to be a WiR it's not on their user page or in this thread, as far as I can tell (and being a WiR isn't usually an effective shield anyway -- it's more a signal that someone is knowledgeable and following best practices such as, yes, not editing about the institution that hires you). We're talking about a standard paid editor, not a WiR. If the changes were constructive and transparent, there would be no reason for action. Evidence of editing with a COI isn't relevant to a sanction except where it's not transparent or not constructive, and my understanding of this section is that multiple people take issue with the quality of EMsmile's edits (i.e. ''edits'' that fail NPOV, not merely an editor that has a COI; the relevance of highlighting a COI is that we rightly provide little-to-no leeway to COI editors to make content mistakes relevant to their COI). FWIW. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::] put this back into our court. ] (]) 13:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:* '''Oppose''' indefinate block as seems excessive given her long history of useful edits. ] (]) 14:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== Proposal: Topic ban for EMsmile === | |||
::Not a good idea. See ]. And I've observed where some (self-proclaimed) experts have told other Misplaced Pages editors that all contributors are amongst peers. – ] (]) 20:48, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
<small>I added this heading just now to break up a section that was getting long ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC) </small> | |||
::: We (editors) are all peers, and should all contribute to all articles we want to. But admins are not our peers, strictly speaking. They have far more powers and responsibilities. If we're going to dramatically heighten those powers, it makes sense to heighten the qualifications needed to wield them. ] (]) 21:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::It's a fine idea, so long as they're not Austrians. However, Misplaced Pages hates experts, hates expertise, hates academia. ] (]) 20:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I will also note that the ] is available. Editors in general, not just admins and/or experts, can weigh in with their thoughts. But in reviewing the FTN I do not see many threads involving Austrian economics. – ] (]) 21:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::This proposal is more than a bit off the wall. Nothing on Misplaced Pages is constrained to experts, as a tertiary source we do not need to be experts, and the original proposal makes no mention of neutrality. The issue is accepted behaviours, period. That the proposer seems not to recognise how Misplaced Pages operates comes as a surprise to me: consensus rules and verifiability trumps truth. . - ] (]) 23:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::{{ping|Sitush}}, Could you tell us which articles constitute the set on which you are supporting General Sanctions and what you believe have been the factors or issues in those articles which require the GS remedy? Please be specific in your response, citing which issues were problematic and how those issues were related to content, behavior, and any other factors you feel are relevant. Above, you wrote, "The general sanctions imposed on Indian castes affected far more articles and editors than this proposal will ever likely do." Could you estimate the number of articles in the Indian caste sanction set and compare it with your estimate of the number that would come under the proposed sanctions here? Thanks. ]] 23:46, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' Admins do not determine content issues (like neutrality) so this proposal isn't needed. Admins carry out consensus and that's it. Every admin action should be able to be linked to a specific consensus. (Speedy deletions, for instance, are determined by predetermined consensus at ]). All an admin must do here is determine whether the consensus of editors is that a piece of content is neutral or not in the form of closing a discussion or protecting a page. No admin should be taking it amoungst themselves to claim an authority to determine neutrality. Admins are peers of editors whom only are trusted with an added responsibility of pushing buttons ''on behalf of the community''.--v/r - ]] 00:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' per TParis above, and because the disputes about Mises & co aren't about economics anyway... ] (]) 00:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' that's not how Misplaced Pages works. FWIW, I do have a minor in economics. --''']]]''' 00:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{od}}While we have 3 fresh and thoughtful new participants here, may I ask you -- if you wish -- to review the recent history on the article and talk page and express your view on the question of 1RR, Protection, or Status Quo on this article? My current view is that the current discussion cleared the air and that progress improving the article has resumed. ]] 00:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::There've been so many proposals and variants, not to mention derailments, that I've lost track of what I'm for and against. In the meantime, while everyone is arguing here, the article is moving forward nicely. Maybe you're right and we're just overreacting here. They're not called drama pages because of all the clear thinking they encourage... ] (]) 01:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose'''. This is antithetical to the way Misplaced Pages has always worked. If an editor or administrator acts improperly because of a misunderstanding of a factual nature, this can be corrected by referring this or other editors to appropriate citations of fact. ] <small>(])</small> 01:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: You do make a good point with how WP works. But your other argument is frankly naive. Background knowledge is necessary to process and contextualize the facts presented in a given econ link. ] (]) 01:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose'''. For reasons mentioned above and because who knows if anon editors even have credentials they claim to have? '''] ''' 01:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose:''' blatantly not how Misplaced Pages works <span style="border:1px solid;background:#800080">]]]</span> 02:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archivebottom}} | |||
:::<small> The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.</small>True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its <s>direct</s> affiliates, broadly construed. This ''obviously'' include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project. This is the narrowest scope I can think of that would prevent the kind of disruption we have recently seen from you. I propose this topic ban be indefinite but appealable after 12 months. As you probably know, there's a good chance that you can avoid getting sanctioned if you commit to a voluntary restriction. I do not think at this time that you need to be banned from ''citing'' the scholarly works of ESG-affiliated people, however I strongly recommend you be very judicious and selective about the extent to which you do this. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== Counter-proposal, close without action === | |||
::::Hi Clayoquot, I think your proposed topic ban is a good solution and way forward ("the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project."). I am happy to make a voluntary commitment to this restriction. I have no experience with such topic bans so I don't know the exact procedure. Do I put this on my profile page? Can you point me to an example where someone else has done this (maybe via my talk page)? | |||
While we've been anxiously arguing over what extreme measures will prove necessary to end the edit war, moving further away from consensus (or even the stated goal) with each response, the war inconveniently ended itself. The fire is no longer raging out of control. In fact, there is no fire to put out, so we should stop discussing the utility of water vs. explosives and just walk away. Drop the stick, bury the hatchet, move on. Insert the idiom of your choice, or just silently kill this dramatic monstrosity of a thread. The one thing we should all be ready to agree upon is that we're not going to agree to do anything helpful at this point. ] (]) 17:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::: | |||
:It amuses me that the vociferous and problematic contributors - the ones who seem to cause all this Austrian economics mess - are the ones who are suddenly backtracking and trying to find any way to prevent this becoming more than another long-winded thread about the subject. Of course, it is A Good Thing if the specific issue has now been addressed but the underlying issue, which is that which the sanctions proposal attempts to address, seems to remain. I think what we're seeing here is a reaction by the likes of MM and Specifico to a possible boomerang situation. Let's get the sanctions in place: if it turns out that the threat of them has actually been sufficient to bring some normality to behaviour etc then great, and if not then they'll be there to be used on the next occasion that this crap starts up. - ] (]) 17:21, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::By the way, the paragraph about the non-use agreement that is now (after some discussion) in the section on ] (second last paragraph) is pretty good in my opinion and does not need further changes at this stage (well, except the first sentence is a bit clunky, I already pointed that out on the talk page last week). | |||
::Please strike your personal attack and comment with respect to the topic at hand. ]] 17:24, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::] is part of the climate change topic complex and is thus, not surprisingly, a topic full of potential for debate and discussion (some people are strongly pushing for it, others are strongly warning about it), so I think further work is still needed and this article will evolve accordingly over time. Hopefully without any ANIs in the future. :-) | |||
:::Just going to note that Sitush could have just voted "Oppose" and moved on. The fact that this immediately degenerated into personal attacks is the strongest evidence that this entire thread has spoiled on the vine and needs to be culled. It's just a great big mass of bad blood waiting to burst. Kill it. Burn it with fire. ] (]) 17:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I'll make sure I am more careful in future with respect to those ''grey areas'' while editing the ] article as mentioned above by ]. I could even commit that for the next few months, I don't make any edits to the ] article directly but always go through the talk page (taking up the offer that North8000 suggested above: "I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged"). | |||
::::Oh and should the ] where I explain how I manage any potential COIs that can arise from working for/with clients, need improvement and tightening? Happy to be given advice on this (maybe better on my talk page than here). ] (]) 22:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::For the topic ban, you can add it to ]. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about ]. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being {{tq|a pioneer in opposing SRM research}} is sourced... to ETC Group itself). ] (] · ]) 23:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::EMsmile, thank you for being flexible on this. Just to make sure you are aware, a topic ban means you may not make any edits related to the topic in question, and this includes edits to talk pages. There is a ]. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 23:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Oh, the talk pages as well? Fine by me for the talk pages of ESGP and its founder but not for the entirety of the SRM article, I am sorry. I think this would not be justified. It's also a bit impractical. With regards to Chaotic Enby's post above I could stress that there are also secondary sources for the non-use agreement, and that I could provide them on the talk page and then leave it up to others if they want to add them to the article or not. | |||
::::::For background (if this helps, but it should rather be on the talk page of the SRM article, not here): The solar geoengineering non-use agreement is an academic initiative that simply believes SRM is a dangerous technology that should not be further developed, much like nuclear technology in the past and that powerful interests are funding it. That's it. That is why the topic is contentious. ] (]) 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::As I described above, I believe your edits regarding NUA at ] violated ] quite egregiously. Do you disagree? | |||
:::::::Posting sources on a talk page is one of the milder forms of advocacy but it is still advocacy. Other editors are capable of finding the sources they want on SRM very quickly, and their searches for those sources will probably be less biased than your searches. I do not think the benefit of you sharing sources outweighs the risk of you using the talk page for COI advocacy. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 03:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I respectfully disagree. I've used the talk page at SRM since middle of last year to reach consensus with other editors in a collaborative manner, like I always do. I ''tried to'' make my points in a concise manner, even if I sometimes failed (should make talk past posts shorter in future). Sometimes they might look like a "wall of text" because I copied a paragraph or even a whole section that is under discussion across. Of course there is always room for improvement but to be banned from writing on the talk page of SRM at all is in my opinion excessive. | |||
::::::::Please also note that the person who started this ANI originally said that I am doing "PR" for my client. This is not true. I can expand on this further but I think this is a content question, not one about procedures. Perhaps it's better to now let that his be handled in the COI noticeboard thread here?: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250119181200-Earth_System_Governance_Project. As was pointed out above by Rhododendrites: "we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive." | |||
::::::::I believe my edits for the ] article have been transparent and constructive. The article is in fairly good shape now and does not include any "PR" for a certain "brand" or alike. ] (]) 09:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{outdent}}Just to be clear, a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates would not stop you from editing the SRM talk page. It would only stop you from editing the SRM talk page ''on the topic of ESG and its affiliates''. And regarding your history on the SRM talk page, I'm sorry I think you just don't get it. The length of your posts there is a ''symptom'' of the attitude that you expressed in other ways. You took the position that you, a paid COI editor, get an equal say in the editorial decision-making process. Instead of offering information and then deferring to the judgement of unconflicted editors, you repeatedly asked for the article to be made more favorable to your client. And unless you are topic banned I see no reason to think you will not do it again. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I'd like to know what other editors think of edits like at SRM and at ] (an article written almost entirely by EMsmile while being paid by ESG). Do the uninvolved people here see these as PR or not PR? ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 19:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* <del>'''Support''' - As nominator. ] (]) 17:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC)</del> | |||
:::I'm withdrawing this, both because it hasn't gained much traction and because the behavior of editors on the relevant articles has once again declined, after we were actually making progress. This issue has been made worse by this festering thread, so I say we should come to some conclusion already and move on. If it's going to be sanctions, I don't agree, but I'm not going to fight against the idea of them any longer. | |||
:IMO if it were not for the PE aspect they look like pretty routine factual edits and I wouldn't use the term PR (by it's common meaning) for them. With the declared PE aspect I'd call it where it would be better to discuss and let them be put in by somebody else if they agree. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose''' purely on the basis that simply moving on has clearly not worked in the past. ]] 17:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:<small>(involved, as I've had disagreements with EMSmile before)</small>. To me, some of this doesn't quite look routine. For instance, using Biermann's website to say he's graduated with distinction (we rarely mention this), or his own website to state he's often used by the press, and namedropping in a highly-viewed article. It's not egregious, but it would raise eyebrows even without the PE aspect. ] (]) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' for many reasons stated above. '''] ''' 17:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Hi Femke, I've modified the ] article accordingly now (I agree with you; this needed improvement - my bad). And just to explain: I had mentioned Frank Biermann in the SRM article because he played an important role in developing the non-use agreement in the first place, and not because I wanted to "name drop" him (137 pageviews per day for the SRM article in the last year is not exactly "a highly-viewed article"). But I do understand that this could be "eyebrow raising" in the overall context of this COI discussion. | |||
*'''Oppose''' - Doing nothing does not address the issue brought forth by Mark Arsten, and would likely result in even more hurt feelings and wasted time. If folks intend to edit according to the accepted practices of the project, then there should be little concern about sanctions. I have actually seen discretionary sanctions work very well in previous cases. They tend to quickly isolate problematic editors. If the NE Ent's proposal fails, then this will almost certainly land on ARBCOM's doorstep, thus wasting even more of the community's time for a similar result. - ]] 18:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I would be happy to improve the Frank Biermann article further if there are still problematic aspects (or "PR"?) that I have overlooked so far. However, I think it's probably better if I give myself a voluntary restriction for this article and also for the ] article, as well as the non-use agreement component of the ] article. I have just now written about this voluntary restriction on my profile page ]. I feel bad for the page watchers and admins that this ANI has gone on for such a long time now. Maybe we could draw it to a close now with this conclusion and voluntary topic ban? (if needed this could be fine-tuned through my talk page rather than through this ANI thread?) ] (]) 23:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' - We all want editing to proceed more smoothly, but I have been disappointed not to hear any specific discussion of how or why the various proposals here would accomplish that. Sometimes a hiatus such as has been occasioned by this ANI is restorative. Despite a lot of rumbling from various quarters, I only recall one ANI in any of the Austrian-related topics which led to any discipline against an abusive editor, and that was not in this Mises Institute article. It's a big leap from one discipline per year to ARBCOM, MrX. ]] 19:57, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::We are making some progress. Your voluntary restriction, as currently worded, is quite far off from a ] or even a mainspace topic ban. A topic ban on the ESGF would stop you from, for example, adding a mention of Biermann or the ESGP to articles like ]. You have written about your client in multiple articles that are not in your voluntary restriction. | |||
* '''Oppose''' and every contribution from the core group of editors active at the relevant articles to these ANI threads makes me more and more sure SDS are needed and will be effective. <code>]]</code> 20:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::At the very least - whether or not you have a voluntary restriction - you need to follow the COI guideline. Your comment above suggests that you don't recognize that you should have used a ] to add Biermann's name to the SRM article. Are you willing to commit to following the entirety of the COI guideline, including the use of edit requests for any non-trivial edits that involve your clients? ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 02:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<del>* '''Qualified Support''' I regrettably have to support Miles's proposal because this thread is an unmitigated disaster (people are being very extreme in their use of heated rhetoric and threats, but have failed to provide any diffs in support of their allegations). I do however think that heightened scrutiny on LvMI entries, both from admins and other users, would be acceptable and even desirable in light of the problems we've had with those pages. Some sanctions in this regard may be necessary down the line. But such sanctions have to be substantiated by diffs and citations of policy, both of which are utterly lacking in this appalling thread. ] (]) 23:24, 21 October 2013 (UTC)</del>. '''Oppose''' While editor conduct on this thread was initially very poor, other users have made more specific and credible charges, and explained the sanctions process more effectively. This, paired with the truly lamentable conduct of users carolmooredc and binksternet on the LvMI pages, leads me to change my vote. ] (]) 00:41, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support'''. I find the voluntary restriction too little too late. I don't think it should be narrowly construed or time-constrained, as some COI remains after a paid position. Some of EMS' additions are egregiously non-neutral, such as adding the following to an infobox "focus=Stimulate a vibrant, pluralistic, and relevant research community for ]" . You still claim on your user page that there is no organisational connection between the ESG Foundation and Project, despite stating the opposite, as pointed out 3 days ago. Working with a COI requires community trust, which I don't think exist anymore. I do wonder if this topic ban should be '''extended to future employers''' too? I can't find it back, but we have had discussions 3/4 years back already about more subtle COI editing on your part, where you promoted papers from individual scientists unduly, in exchange for them volunteering time to improve Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 08:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose'''. I'm in favour of general sanctions per my comment above. — ''''']''''' <sup>]</sup> 13:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' per Femke. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose'''. Sanctions are needed at this group of topics. ] (]) 14:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*''' |
* '''Support''' and will withdraw my proposal above. ] (]) 13:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
*'''Oppose involuntary, as long as the details on the voluntary get confirmed''' <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 13:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per Femke. also this discussion has gone too long and is nearly 0.5 ]s long. We should end it somehow, and some kinda editting restriction is warranted at this point. ] (]) 17:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per Femke, while a block is far too much, a topic ban (with or without edit requests) seems more reasonable. ] (] · ]) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support as proposer''' and I think extending it to future employers/clients makes sense. Once someone has started work on a project, it can be difficult or impossible to change the client's expectations. It is emotionally hard for the community to contemplate sanctions that affect an individual's current employment, so preventing that kind of situation is best for everyone. EMsmile does relatively well when working for clients who do not expect COI editing. I hope the guidance she is getting here will encourage her to seek those types of projects. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 21:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Voluntary restrictions=== | |||
===Procedural Note: Where's the diff?=== | |||
{{Ping|EMsmile}} Just clarifying | |||
*When the Earth System Governance Project and Frank Biermann "zero editing" restrictions expire a year from now, of course if you were under any relevant PE arrangement all of the rules related to that would be in force. | |||
*Did you say that you were under a relevant PE arrangement on the Solar radiation modification article? If not, please ignore the rest of this. If so, while still under it (until you explicitly say it is over), for the areas not covered by your "zero edit" self-restriction, would you agree to operate in a "doubly safe" mode in the other areas of the article? Until then, ask someone else to put in any edits that are not clearly merely-gnome edits? | |||
Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 13:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The stridence and certitude behind the call for general sanctions made by many editors above, starting with a complaint by OP which featured exactly '''zero''' diffs, is astounding given the total absence of evidence in support of their allegations of problematic or biased editing. I don't recall anyone pointing to a single problematic addition or removal of content on one of those pages (as opposed to pointing to examples of users, especially Binksternet, making inappropriate personal remarks to other users). People appear to have lazily and erroneously inferred from the high number and intense nature of ANI postings that some or all of the editors who spend time there must be "bad." I demand that people begin to offer diffs of genuine, ongoing (i.e. from the last month or more frequently) violations of policy on '''articles'''. Bare conclusory assertions of "misconduct" and "bias" (bereft of any evidence) wouldn't cut it on the playground, and they shouldn't here either. ] (]) 17:52, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Your restriction of submitted diffs to be "from the last month" is self-serving. If we go back to April 2013 there are revealing diffs showing you to be very much biased against LvMI and people associated with it. You wrote about LvMI: and in the same diff "The bigotry of (at least some) Mises Institute people is pretty well sourced." You also said, You also told Stalwart111 that you were the LvMI. All of these declarations are from six months ago. ] (]) 18:33, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:There is a list of past ANI reports above, for starters. - ] (]) 17:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: So one user's slanted interpretation of ANIs, most of which related to personal misconduct and none of which resulted in any sanctions whatsoever, is a substitute for diffs of inappropriate edit to Mises Institute related articles? Knowing that you (and presumably others here) think that way speaks volumes, Sitush. ] (]) 18:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::None of which, {{ping|Sitush}} -- as has been pointed out by me and by uninvolved editor {{ping|Stalwart111}} and others -- support {{ping|Carolmooredc}}'s claims, and at least two of which, as I've indicated above, are outright misrepresentations. You have just given a fresh example of what {{ping|Steeletrap}} described, ]] 18:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I would be very surprised if most of the people commenting on this issue did not at least review the relevant article history, article talk pages, user talk pages and noticeboards. Diffs can be useful for a simple case of edit warring or vandalism, but when an issue spans several articles in a single topic area, a handful of common editors, and a multi-week timeframe, it's makes a little more sense to use other tools to gain a larger view of the situation. - ]] 18:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::If they did, there's little evidence of such research in the comments on this thread. Your guess is not unreasonable, but I don't see anything in the comments here to confirm that it actually happened. At any rate, there are two separate issues. First, whether an uninvolved editor forms a personal judgment by researching the history more broadly than the examination of selected diffs. But second, how can one editor discuss or advocate such judgment if not through documentation in the form of diffs or specific references to discussions and issues. I see no sign in this whole glorious jumble that more than a few uninvolved editors did any such research and we've already been 'round the mulberry bush on Carolmooredc using ''what appear to be references and diffs'' to mislead and misrepresent the record. It seems unlikely to me that any uninvolved editors here devoted much attention to scrutinizing any of the undocumented claims that were bandied about here. When that kind of detailed scrutiny does in fact occur, discussion threads tend to be focused on separating fact from interpretation and the discussion converges to a consensus. Maybe that will happen here if the thread stays open for another week or two. ]] 19:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::The topic is potential sanctions for all editors on the articles, so fairly general links to past ANIs, etc. more acceptable. If it was a proposal to topic ban certain editors, more specific and telling diffs would be necessary. I think people can judge for themselves if I use "''what appear to be references and diffs'' to mislead and misrepresent the record." Some description helps since people are less likely to click on links like , , etc. If sanctions are applied, I personally would give it at least a month before even thinking about looking at certain covered articles again to see whether sanctions worked and it was safe to try to put in NPOV info. However, I'd be delighted to put the relevant templates on a few articles. {{Smiley}} '''] ''' 21:52, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::A topic ban is exactly what you proposed (only this morning) - ''"I think at least two of them should be topic banned by an editor now and there would be no need to go to ArbCom"''. Failing that, you advocated a pseudo topic ban; applying sanctions to, ''"whatever ones and Steeletrap have been working on in this area"'' and you want sanctions applied for ''"at least a month"''. Your motivation here is transparent. ]] 06:22, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::There's a difference between the various posters' formal proposals and my ''opinion'' of what should happen based on my analysis of why there is a problem in the first place. If I was making a proposal I'd do it in the proper format. Pardon me for not making that clear so that you could understand it. '''] ''' 18:24, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Oh, I think given your history we all understand ''perfectly well'' what it is you are trying to do and nobody is falling for your act any more. ]] 02:51, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Basile Morin, Arionstar and FPC == | |||
===Let's wrap this up=== | |||
{{atop | |||
There are several different proposals on the table here. To make it easier for whichever Admin does the close, let's each state our preference here: | |||
| result = Everyone has cooled down and agreed to stop with the ]. ] (]/]) 16:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
}} | |||
I was going to let this go as there has been no recent (within the past two days) hounding, until a comment by {{user|Basile Morin}} led me straight here. | |||
* '''General Sanctions''' This seems like the only way to prevent the small number of disruptive editors from thwarting the excellent progress that's continued even as this ANI has dragged on. Let's give it a try. ]] 23:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Opening yet another subsection just muddies the waters further. Just change your !vote on the sanctions in the preceding section. An experienced admin is perfectly capable of working out what has gone on. Please hat this subsection. - ] (]) 23:47, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''General Sanctions''' Ongoing and intensifying disruptive conduct, both from "old timers" Binksternet Carolmooredc, and "new" editors such as Sitush, make such a measure sadly necessary. ] (]) 00:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Anything''' No, really. Anything is better than dragging our feet. Let's act decisively and make some progress, as this thread is worse than pointless. ] (]) 02:35, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''General Sanctions''' per the above proposal by {{u|NE Ent}}. That said, I think ] is probably a sufficient section on its own for an uninvolved admin to close upon. ]] 14:41, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' With you three (Steeletrap, Specifico, MilesMoney) changing your mind, it seems we have a practical unanimous support for discretionary sanctions; the possible exception being ] but I don't think she has been very involved in these articles. That's a welcome development which hopefully bodes well for the future. Regards, ] (]) 18:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' My concern was primarily with the fair implementation of sanctions. So, I won't support or oppose them. I will speak up in the future should the sanctions ever be implemented and I think they are being unfairly applied. Yeah, that'll make me popular. ;-) <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 19:00, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I can't guarantee your popularity, but you should know that I appreciate your input. ] (]) 23:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::: After today, I'll take it! <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 01:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''General sanctions with NPOV emphasis''' since the problem remains editors who openly have expressed ridicule and hostility towards the subjects, making their biased edits even more annoying to more NPOV editors, leading to repeated trips to various noticeboards. (see . '''] ''' 13:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The General Sanctions will address personal attacks, harassment, and tendentious editing so that the content ''per se'' can be improved without disruption. Be careful what you wish for. ]] 14:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I think that depends on what the admins think necessary. '''] ''' 15:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''General sanctions''', although I'm not sure why we are repeating this down here when there is already a section about it above. --] (]) 16:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Good point and closing admin surely will note that. '''] ''' 16:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*This should be SNOW closed. It seems to have nearly unanimous consensus, as the only four opposes have either changed their minds or acquiesced, and many people have voted multiple times (Yes, something needs to happen, Yes let's do general sanctions, No, let's not close this without action, Yes, seriously, let's do the general sanctions.) For the close, I propose the following wording: <blockquote>Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working on a page within the topic of Austrian Economics, if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, or at the ].</blockquote> I made only one small modification to the original wording proposed by ], dropping the "Arbitration committee", per suggestions by ] and ]. (If an appeal gets really stuck at AN, arbitration can be considered.) If somebody doesn't close this I'm willing to ], provided there are no objections based on my involvement in the initial thread above (saying that Yes, something needs to be done). Any takers? <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 23:28, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:Best to let someone close it who hasn't opined above or engaged in the original brouhaha. ] 23:50, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{Archive bottom}} | |||
Since at least January 3, I have seen a general pattern of ] on the ] board involving accusations that {{user|ArionStar}} has engaged in sockpuppetry on Wikimedia Commons, something I find only of minimal relevance with FPCs. I have counted <i>at least</i> three times where a user ({{user|Charlesjsharp}}) has copy-and-pasted the following message on a nomination ArionStar has started: | |||
== ] == | |||
* '''Comment''' I notify other voters that the nominator has been banned on Commons and has been insulting on this page towards another user. (at ], ] and ]) | |||
Not only is this failing to ], it's also completely irrelevant to a process involving images. It's sort of like telling people to oppose an FAC because they haven't given good reviews. I would have left this here, until another user (Basile Morin), engaged in Wikihounding, decided to directly attack me and ArionStar instead of constructively responding to my concerns. What really damns me is , in full. I was struck with the flu, so was unable to respond, but I think I'll just bring it directly here, seeing how this isn't the first time this has happened: | |||
{{quote|text=There is no "target" as you imagine, and each of us would like to be able to calmly evaluate new quality nominations as we are supposed to see in this section. Rather than being asphyxiated by an avalanche of weak candidates, all precipitated by the uncontrolled frenzy of a hyper-impulsive participant. Furthermore, no user is obliged to come and provoke conflicts via illegitimate puppets, and even less so if you don't want us to be interested in you. You are , EF5, according to your own words. Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months (], ], ]...), and you also use . Some of your ] are orphans and you're probably not the "author" of the . Above, you wrongly mention a "retaliatory opposing" when if that had been Charles' intention, he could have voted "oppose per JayCubby" to bring down this nomination even faster. But ] is usually an excellent reviewer, also a photographer and nominator, regular on ] and ], with ] and 303 on Misplaced Pages. I think the idea he expresses is mainly a serious fed-up feeling, to see, once again, a deluge of nominations coming from the same overexcited account. The fact is that ArionStar is here only because he was banned from Commons, unfortunately that is the sad reality. However, the goal is not to repeat here the same mistakes as those made there. Note also that, just after , ArionStar turns a deaf ear and , as if he were absolutely seeking his sanction. Obtuse insistence is bound to annoy even the calmest and most patient people. It is obvious that if you want to progress and maintain good relationships with others, you must first be able to become aware of your mistakes, and the reasons for your failures. There is no hunt against ArionStar, but no "special indulgence" either. In my opinion, Charles has mainly tried a kind of moderately subtle "]" aimed at the participant himself, who would do better to listen once and for all to the good advice, rather than ignoring it and making fun of others. This , well before he was banned. Kind regards -- Basile Morin}} | |||
I mean, what kind of comment is this? Whatever it is, it needs to stop. "Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months" is just cherry-picking things I've done, with no actual regard to relevance. I really don't think a "talk" is going to do much here (which I've already tried), so I'm bringing it here.<span id="EF5:1737221536794:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> — ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
A little concerned about the activity on this article and whether it is fair to the article-subject. ] and I seem to be on the same page - the article is over-editorialized and relies heavily on a single author, ], as a source. That author writes in an op-ed style and his depiction of events conflicts substantially with other sources. WP:BLP is relevant. ] feels the article should be negative and has argued in favor of using primary sources as proper material for contentious material about a BLP. | |||
:If Charles and Basile don't commit to cutting it out, I think one way IBANs are definitely in order here. ] (]/]) 18:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:(ec) ], this is a confusing report to try to sort out although Voorts seems to be able to follow things here. Are you the only commenter here or is some of this content from another editor who didn't leave their signature? If this entire complaint is all from you can you identify, in one sentence, which editor you are complaining about (since several are mentioned here), whether or not you have notified them of this report and what exactly your "charge" is against them? Again, give the heart of your complaint in ONE sentence although you may include diffs. Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Yes, I am the only filer. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::@]: As I understand the report, and from looking at the diffs, Charles and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that Arion is socking/engaging in harassment/vandalism at Commons. Basile and Charles have both been around for a long time and should know better. ] (]/]) 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Thank you, ], for the summation. I am completely ignorant of what is going on at the Commons. It's enough for me to keep up with what's happening on this Wikimedia project of which I only barely succeed at, much less know who is socking or who is blocked on other projects. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::''"and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that"'' => No, we did not vote here. -- ] (]) 20:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::The intent was clearly to cast aspersions on the entire nomination, even if you didn't use a bolded oppose. ] (]/]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Arionstar was indeed indeffed on Commons and has socked there, creating some bad blood among some FPC regulars. For better or worse, however, we regard the projects as independent. In fact, demonstrating constructive behavior on a different project is often a good strategy to appeal a block. As Arionstar continued socking at Commons, I don't think that's the goal, but the point stands that anyone who wishes to see Arionstar sanctioned here would need to open a thread on this board with diffs showing bad behavior ''here'' (or, at minimum, bad behavior elsewhere that's ''directly'' connected to conflicts here, such as harassing a user on Commons because of a dispute here). Absent consensus otherwise, Arionstar is AFAIK in good standing on enwp. | |||
:Doesn't mean anyone's obliged to support his nominations, of course, and I don't blame the Commons regulars from not doing so. The only problem would be an opposition here solely due to behavior there, which (as much as I'm critical of enwp's FPC criteria) is probably not a valid reason for opposition. That said, I don't see that anyone has done that? At ], Charles posted a comment and did not vote. Basile opposed, but provided clear reasons why, which didn't center on behavioral issues. Just not sure what there is to do here. Maybe this bit of advice will suffice: (a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 18:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is ] against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm learning from my mistakes and ]. The FP guidelines here are different but I'm understanding them day after day. ] (]) 18:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== ArionStar's disruptions === | |||
Keithbob and I have been accused of secretly being paid editors for Bell Pottinger and despite two BLP posts, 1 COIN post, and miles of Talk page discussion, there hasn't really been much progress. Not sure what better way to resolve the issue than post here in hopes that there will be more engagement. ] (]) 16:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Aaaaaargh. This is a complicated matter that could do with a set of fresh eyes. ] (]) 17:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
Quite misleading. The matter actually began when a self-admitted ] public relations employee and representative for Matthew Bryden, one HOgilvy, sought to clean up Bryden's[REDACTED] page on his client's behalf (c.f. ). Bryden is a controversial figure who was dismissed last year from the UN for poor performance as the UN's Coordinator for the Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group, a regional watchdog panel (c.f ). With this mandate, Bryden's Misplaced Pages PR representative contacted the CorporateM account above, who then proceeded to ping his wiki friends and basically tried to remove anything critical of Bryden. That includes everything from the fact that Bryden was fired to his previous place of residence according to his own alma mater. It later came to light almost by accident that CorporateM is himself a PR representative, a fact which he never bothered revealing on the article's talk page. However, on his own user page, CorporateM did express his position on conflict of interest as follows: : "if a PR person served Misplaced Pages's interests and their client's simultaneously, this would be a conflict of interest and would be unethical we serve our client's interests exclusively." This is in direct opposition to ]'s instruction that "Wikipedians must place the interests of the encyclopedia first." This past week, CorporateM deleted this surprising Position on COI revelation from his user page , though it is of course still stored in the page history. So basically, we have a situation where at least one PR representative was "helping" another PR representative clean up his client's[REDACTED] bio page, all the while believing that "we serve our client's interests exclusively". What's best for Misplaced Pages is instead apparently "unethical". ] (]) 17:20, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:] has publicly divulged their status as a PR rep in several forums and on several articles going back several months. He/she does not edit in areas where he/she is representing a client. He/she does edit other articles on WP where he/she is ''not'' representing a client and makes good faith additions to the further develop the project as a whole including commenting at RfC's and policy discussion and improving content on WP articles like ]. I encourage any editor or Admin to scan the talk pages and decide for themselves which editor is pushing a point of view here. In particular where several uninvolved editors commented and criticized the use of editorials, self published and primary sources being used to malign the subject. Despite that consensus, it took a month and a thousand words of talk page discussion to remove them because of . Now, Middayexpress' last ditch effort is to make a personal attack on CorporateM (unfounded accusations with no diffs are personal attacks) and using COI allegations to gain the upper hand in a content dispute which is a violation of the ] guideline.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 18:00, 18 October 2013 (UTC)--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 18:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I should point out that Keithbob is one of CorporateM's aforementioned wiki friends that he pinged for support ("I thought it would be better to just start a fresh string I can link to and ping a few editors so we can get additional input" ). They've basically been attempting to remove all critical material on Bryden, typically on the weakest of pretexts. ] (]) 18:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::: So, you're arguing against Editors who know each other from their time on Misplaced Pages collaborating together? <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I'm saying the pinging in this instance is an example of ] ("Posting an excessive number of messages to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand"). ] (]) 15:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I could be wrong, but I ''think'' Middayexpress is saying these editors are proxying for each other (i.e. not using independent judgment) in order to work around the formal restrictions of ] best practices, possibly in some sort of quid pro quo arrangement. E.g. you make my proposed edits and I make yours, and we each claim we have no COI for the changes we're making. Is that correct? --] (]) 18:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Just to clarify, the Bell Pottinger editor posted at COIN and ] asked me to chip in on a volunteer basis. These kinds of personal attacks and conspiracy theories are standard fair for this article unfortunately... ] (]) 17:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The quotes and difs above speak for themselves; no personal attacks necessary. As for the Bell Pottinger public relations representative, he indeed posted at COIN, and I linked to the very post where he said that he would do that. He also posted on CorporateM's talk page and repeatedly, typically requesting (and more often than not receiving) direct assistance. This was also not the first time that the account contacted CorporateM. They were apparently already acquainted before this affair . Missed that. ] (]) 18:09, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{nao}} Unless I'm way off-track, CorporateM's admitted behavior is a blatant violation of ] and ], not to mention ]; his/her statement that he/she serves only the client's interests and not Misplaced Pages's interests is clear evidence of ], and the decision to remove his/her COI disclosure is inexcusable. It's a pattern of terrible abuse of editing privileges, and harsh sanctions are appropriate IMO. --] (]) 23:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
(First, to take into account at the origin of this report by EF5, an annoyance ''perhaps'' caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination: ].) | |||
{{nao}} <strike>I'll also note that both CorporateM and KeithBob have exhibited '''extremely''' precocious editing skills for having only created their accounts in the last few weeks. --] (]) 00:08, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</strike> ''stricken per apology previously and by another editor in good faith'' | |||
*Fleischman, what? CorporateM and Keithbob have been here for forever. And CorporateM's statement, cited above, is interpreted in a completely incorrect manner. Midday, I just reread your comments. You're stooping pretty low there. ] (]) 01:18, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::That's not exactly my fault since much of what I posted are CorporateM's own comments. I couldn't make that up if I tried. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*What on earth are you talking about, ]? Both those editors have been around for years. If you're going to snipe at people, at least try to keep it ''plausible'' even if not true. The same goes for the MEAT / COI / CANVAS / NOTHERE alphabet soup. ] (]) 01:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Now, concerning ArionStar: | |||
:::I think I've been here about 3-5 years now and have 16,000 edits and 13 GAs to my name. Also, it has been confirmed many-a-times when POV pushers attempt to use my COI disclosure as leverage that I may edit articles where I have no COI just like any volunteer. Midday's links and post show the type of extreme personal attacks and POV pushing we have come to expect. For example, I completely re-wrote my user-page, cut it in half, and he has selected a specific edit to make it seem like something nefarious is going on. It's just trolling and resorting to personal attacks and conspiracy theories in order to do whatever it takes to make sure the article reflects his point-of-view, rather than a neutral point-of-view. ] (]) 01:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*{{userlinks|ArionStar}} | |||
See: | |||
#] | |||
#] (now ]) | |||
#] (clear attack against me) | |||
My talk page also was "attacked" with (, , , , ). | |||
::::Unfortunately, all of the most telling difs and quotes in my post above are to CorporateM's own remarks. That includes his own longstanding . It's unreasonable to expect people to turn a blind eye to this surprising revelation just because he deleted it a few days before posting here. That's actually all the more reason to notice it. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
]. These , with left to the user (), | |||
* Beginning at the middle of the Matthew Bryden article, it loses its focus of being a written account of Bryden and instead serves as a ] for the opinions of a variety of people, none of whom are Bryden. The article reads "According to author Michelle Shephard," "According to journalist Robert Young Pelton," "Puntland President Abdirahman Farole suggested that Bryden was," "Ahmed spent 30 minutes of a July speech criticizing Bryden,". None of these people qualify as experts on Matthew Bryden or qualify as experts on written accounts of another person's life. Their views belong in their own Misplaced Pages article or in an article on ], but not in the Matthew Bryden article. Some of source material does convey chronological life event information about Matthew Bryden, and that's fine for the biography article. However the rest needs to be removed from the article. Author Michelle Shephard ebook has a quote from Bryden, and an independent third party source republishing a Bryden quote could make that Bryden quote fair game for the Bryden biography article. Instead, Shephard's view of what that means is added to the Bryden article. That is not how source material should be used to develop a biography. As for COI, CorporateM sates he does not have a COI with the Matthew Bryden topic and no one has posted and diffs that establish otherwise. -- ] (]) 02:34, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
before being by ArionStar as if my talk page was a battleground. | |||
'''More worrying''', A few days ago '''the same person used sockpuppets''' to pollute my account on Commons: | |||
::BLP indicates that "criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone." That said, Farole and Ahmed are quoted because Bryden and his Monitoring Group accused them of wrongdoing, so their replies are appended for balance. Shephard is also a secondary source relaying Bryden's views on a political issue related to his previous position at the Monitoring Group. If you look at the Misplaced Pages bios of other controversial figures, they follow a similar model but are often way more critical (e.g. ]). This bio is actually pretty tame in comparison. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
#] | |||
#]. | |||
Exhausting. There have been a lot of , on Commons. Best regards -- ] (]) 19:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Regarding me being “mad about my failed nom”, that is casting serious ]. I engaged because I saw what looked like uncivil behavior, '''not''' because one of my nominations failed. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I would support removing all of it as an interim solution, and re-introducing content there is consensus for. But some of that really does belong. ] (]) 03:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks for your ''subjective'' opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- ] (]) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::@]: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. ] (]/]) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::. Regards -- ] (]) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's ] which is not on. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Thank you for your suggestion. Last time , it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::] about ] doesn't help your case when you are ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Thank you very much for your links. I will try to read these two "essays" in peace and quiet, as well as this "information page". I already wrote a below. All the best -- ] (]) 05:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at ]. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Most of it belongs, including a lot of material that was removed for no legitimate reason. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::"Attacks, attacks, he attacked"… I'll keep my silence because I try… (It's sad to see when someone "loses the line" after a "ceasefire request") | |||
:::P.S.: " annoyance ''perhaps'' caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination"… ''kkkkkkk'' (laughs in Brazilian Portuguese). ] (]) 23:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::], I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::{{Agree}} Thanks. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
'''On reflection''' | |||
:::In earlier discussions I supported including some of the material that Midday sought to keep, though not all of it. I can't remember if any of those items are mentioned above; it's on the record though. But in general I note three tendencies: that other editor (forget their name--it's on record too) was a bit too positive on the subject, Midday was much too negative and included material that IMO was unacceptable, and Corporate sailed mostly down the middle, though I did not agree with every one of their exclusions. But to my mind Corporate Minion was the most neutral of them all. Then again, this has been hammered out on the talk page and, I believe, on the BLPN board and possibly on a few user talk pages; for my money, I'd give Bobrayner free rein and let them have at it (Dr. Fleischman, we await your apology: sooner is always better than later). ] (]) 04:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Thank you. | |||
I would like to apologize to user ] if I may have made one or more errors of judgment regarding them. | |||
I do not know this user very well, and having noticed that they often change their name, use multiple accounts, and , I may have indeed become too defensive. Since they are apparently very young ], I may have made some wrong assumptions of behavior. It may also be the fatigue generated by ]. So all the better if this person (EF5) is reliable and well-intentioned. I don't blame them for anything, and I'm rather looking forward to getting back to my usual activities. | |||
I agree with and thank him for his effort to calm things down: | |||
::::Everything I posted on Bryden is factual. But as I've learned, it's those facts themselves that are more often than not inconvenient. By contrast, the majority of CorporateM's edits were in agreement with his fellow public relations representative HOgilvy. There was very little divergence in opinion between the two. In hindsight, it's difficult to see how there could be since CorporateM apparently believes a PR rep's duty is to exclusively serve the interests of his/her client rather than Misplaced Pages's interests (his words). At any rate, I would like to find a middle ground with the PR reps/friends, but this will take some doing. ] (]) 14:33, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{xt|"(a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp."}} | |||
I understand that my approach was not the most tactful, sorry. I can nevertheless prove that the approach was 100% healthy and intended to help Misplaced Pages. | |||
I have absolutely no problem with ArionStar contributing constructively to the development of the encyclopedia (if that is really his intention). However, I would also like to draw attention to the fact that from another user is in my humble opinion far from being as the other imagines. This is perhaps a most important point. | |||
::::Thanks everyone for your astute comments and observations. If you've visited the article talk page you will also notice that CorporateM has demonstrated an immense amount of patience on the talk page for months (and myself to a lesser degree). The article was highlighted at BLPN twice and outside eyes have come in but Midday seems to have an aversion to consensus and when CM and I walk away he skews the article again. So while I do support an uninvolved editor like ] making deletions as needed to create NPOV for the article I would also appreciate if some other folks could keep it on their watchlist as I think Corporate and I are pretty worn out from months of copious talk page activity with Midday. User Midday is a prolific editor who I'm sure has made many valuable contributions to the project. I hope that he/she is able to step back and reconsider their approach to the Matthew Bryden BLP and move on to other more productive activities. Thanks to all who have given input here. Cheers!--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 14:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
The last thing I claim is the need for ArionStar to immediately and permanently stop using unproductive puppets. Neither elsewhere nor here. See ] '''"Good hand" and "bad hand" accounts'''. | |||
I noticed that after self-imposing a "wikibreak" they reverted another user to my own talk page, thus adding to the annoying noise. I would therefore be grateful if ArionStar would never again try to get in touch through this channel. I need peace and concentration. | |||
:::::Patience obviously works both ways. On the other hand, pinging one's friends for support does not at all constitute outside involvement. Quite the opposite. The solution here is genuine outside involvement by an editor(s) who has had no prior contact with any of the involved parties, as that might serve to prejudice or otherwise influence his/her actions. For this same reason, the editor(s) also cannot himself/herself be a public relations/media representative. ] (]) 15:14, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Why would you think that just because someone is pinged by Corporate (or anyone else) they're automatically their "friend" and thus, as you suggest, incapable if independent judgment? The instances where I agree with you and disagreed with them is sufficient evidence of the falsehood of this premise. I like to think that Corporate pinged me for my extensive knowledge and impeccable judgment. As for "genuine outside involvement"--you have been editing articles in that (geographic) area for years, and by your own argument you could be discredited for having a COI; from the discussions it's clear that you also don't come to the negotiation table without prejudice. As far as I'm concerned that does not discredit you anymore than it does me and, I might add, before you know it (extending your argument not by much) ''any'' kind of involvement is suspicious and WP should only be edited by 12-year olds who know nothing about nothing, who couldn't point out Mogadishu on a map if it bit them in the ass, in the name of impartiality.<p>Of course a PR rep's edit should be scrutinized carefully, as was done in this case by ''all'' parties, including Corporate--and I challenge you to find a PR person more transparent than Corporate (never mind the fact that he is not on anyone's payroll in this particular case, as far as I know) in their dealings with companies/articles/organizations where they might have a genuine COI. Besides, it's unlikely that four editors (counting myself) would all have the same damning POV in a case like this, which I think is another of your suggestions. I stand completely neutral towards the subject of this article, and my POV is NPOV. That doesn't make me right in individual editorial decisions, but whether they're made correctly or incorrectly, they're ''editorial'' decisions, unguided by any kind of partiality toward the involved governments, journalists, publications, freedom fighters, weapons dealers, non-governmental organizations, and Misplaced Pages editors. ] (]) 19:12, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::It's bizarre to me to keep reading that you somehow think that "pinging one's friends for support" is a bad thing. It's called collaboration and as long as one isn't canvassing Editors to come participate in a deletion decision, RfA or contentious discussion, it is a good practice that happens all over Misplaced Pages every day, often organized through WikiProjects or more informally. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Finally, I am happy, personally, to make an effort of discretion. I have accepted the criticisms that have been addressed to me, and sincerely consider them constructive. Thank you to each and every one of you. I wish you all fruitful research and rich contributions on Misplaced Pages. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Per ], there's an ] to follow when seeking additional input. Pinging random friends -- which CorporateM certainly did; every editor he pinged was a prior amicable acquiantance of his, with no connection to the topic other than that (one actually gave him an award of some kind ) -- is an example of ] ("Posting an excessive number of messages to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand"). ] is also quite clear that "when advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages, that editor stands in a conflict of interest". It's in the first paragraph and bolded for emphasis. This is in direct conflict with CorporateM's apparent general position on COI : "if a PR person served Misplaced Pages's interests and their client's simultaneously, this would be a conflict of interest and would be unethical we serve our client's interests exclusively." At any rate, given the foregoing, the only conceivable solution is genuine outside involvement i.e. by an editor(s) who has had no prior contact or dealings with any of the involved parties, as that might serve to influence his/her actions. This should be an acceptable compromise for all parties interested in a neutral page. ] (]) 21:00, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::It sounds to me like you're wikilawyering, clutching at every straw because consensus might be against what it is that ''you'' want the article to present. One could read your commentary and opinions there as evidence of extreme bias against the subject of the article; your insistence on unreliable sources to make the article state that the subject was ''fired'' from that UN group could, hypothetically, serve as evidence. Mind you, that's based on actual things you said. HOgilvy clearly had a certain interest in the article, and so, I surmise, do you: HOgilvy in favor, you against. Corporate, Keithbob, me, Bobrayner, we are not (AFAIK) interested in the subject as such. And might I reiterate, for the now-bored onlooker, that Corporate got involved with this to ''prevent'' COI editing? This article, Middayexpress, is better off without you.<p>If anyone still cares, the general pattern displayed in this thread is evident on the talk page as well. Midday was at pains to get an editorial from an online organization accepted as a reliable source; Corporate points out (in ]) that Hiriian Online is not a reliable source. Look at the paragraph starting "Here we go", where Corporate makes a pretty convincing case that the website is run by a lobbying group. Midday's response? "Policies and guidelines come up in many Misplaced Pages discussions..." followed by a complete avoidance of the issue. This is why Midday's contributions here are ultimately useless and their behavior frustrating. They bring sources and context, which is helpful, and refuse to back off even after everyone else (that is, four editors, not counting HOgilvy of course--note {{U|Lexein}}'s contributions) disagrees with them. And now this interminable thread, full of wishy-washy nonsense about suspected involvement when there is not a shred of evidence of foul play on Corporate's side, again halting progress on the article: I propose a '''topic ban for this article''' for MiddayExpress. ] (]) 00:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Most of the editors named above are CorporateM's wiki friends who he pinged for input. They are certainly not outside editors in this particular instance, and have no connection with the topic other than that shared friendship. So the fact that they see eye-to-eye on pretty much everything isn't exactly unexpected. This is the definition of inappropriate notification, as the WP:COI links and quote above show. If I were to have done the same (as I easily could've, btw), CorporateM et al. would surely in turn have complained about it. This is almost certain since, rather ironically, he already complained that my contacting another editor who by contrast had already edited the page would constitute canvassing . At any rate, my interest in the article is as a WikiProject Somalia member, which this bio on the former UN Coordinator of the Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group certainly falls under. It's in this capacity that I edited the page, just like any other Project page. What first caught my attention was some editor (CorporateM) removing huge swathes of material from the bio with no prior talk page explanation or discussion. I did notice, though, one post by another account (HOgilvy) requesting a cleanup of some sort . This account described himself as as a ] public relations representative and said that Bryden was his client. We already had problems in the past on other Project pages with Bell Pottinger PR reps, so that disclosure certainly caught my eye as well. I assumed that there was some sort of connection between the edits, which was confirmed when CorporateM linked me to a COIN discussion that HOgilvy had posted where he requested assistance. Since then, what I've been trying to do is retain some sort of balance on the article. This has been a challenge when CorporateM et al. seem to be believe that ''any'' material critical of Bryden is unacceptable, not just the Hiiraan Online piece (see ] for a discussion of that source in its proper context). However, Bryden is a controversial figure on the Horn of Africa political scene, so some degree of criticism is to be expected. Attempting to ban me or any other editor from the topic is not a solution, as all that does is remove any semblance of balance from the page. The only neutral solution is what Keithbob proposed above i.e. entrusting the article to an uninvolved third party. My one condition is that this editor(s) should not have had any prior contact or dealings with any of the involved parties since that might serve to influence his/her actions. ] (]) 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::I think any objective observer who looks at the talk page discussions will see ''your'' comments for what they're worth; at the very least, they'll see that you are incorrect in your easy claim that everyone pinged saw eye to eye with Corporate. ] (]) 21:29, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* <b>Support</b>: Of the topic-ban per ]. A couple clarifications are in order though. The problem with the sources were that they were op-eds written by opposing political interests, not that they were published by Hiiran online, which may be a reliable source in other cases. And the UN DID fire Bryden, or at the very least they claim to have. If a new editor not previously involved (] was mentioned a couple times) wants to take a crack at it, I wouldn't mind abstaining as well for the sake of keeping the peace. ] (]) 03:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::See above. ] (]) 16:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**The only source for the firing is a report by the ]--and I assume that , a primary source which does nothing more than list the ''next'' members of the UN Monitoring Group and says nothing about Bryden, is still in the article at Midday's insistence. Thanks for the other clarification as well. ] (]) 04:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*** A reasonable point of discussion between civil and thoughtful editors. IMO, Inner City Press does seem like it may be a bit of an advocacy-type source. You know, one of those, "we uncover the truth not covered by mainstream media" types. And employers will often claim they did the firing while employees have a different POV. In this case in particular there is a political backdrop that makes it more complicated as well. I think Inner City Press may be acceptable to use, as long as it's done with caution. But that is a discussion best left for another time, after an environment is created where a thoughtful and civil discussion can occur. ] (]) 04:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*** Inner City Press is an accredited media agency at the UN headquarters, the Federal Reserve and various other agencies . This is why its byline location is signed "United Nations", and how it managed to report on Bryden's dismissal as it was happening , . This as well is explained on the article's talk page. ] (]) 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*The reasoning given here by {{U|DrFleischman}} and others to suggest CorporateM is meating brins up an interesting hypothetical. Suppose I edit a certain article and think a section needs to be rewritten. Another user who also edits the article thinks the same. By the explanation given by some, I am violating WP:MEAT. <span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #003399;">]</span><span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #FF8C00;">]</span> 04:51, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Not at all, at least in my mind. My understanding is that CorporateM and KeithBob were proxying for each other rather than exercising independent judgment. --] (]) 05:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The solution seems to be to entrust the page to an uninvolved editor(s) with no prior association with any of the involved parties. This uninvolved editor(s) would then gradually edit the page, explaining each edit on the talk page as he/she went along. The editor(s) would also consider/hear the feedback of the erstwhile involved parties. ] (]) 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:In addition, I'll ignore any report about me coming from you here on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 04:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{nao}} The above discussion focuses on the content dispute, rather than the conduct dispute, and misses the bigger point. CorporateM has admitted ( for example) he/she frequently edits as a paid advocate, he/she serves his/her client's interests exclusively () in direct violation of ]'s prime directive. (bolded in first para: ''"When advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages, that editor stands in a conflict of interest."'') My understanding is that Middayexpress has accused CorporateM and KeithBob of proxying for each other, and those accusations should be taken seriously in light of these COI issues. Regardless, even if they're incorrect, by his/her own admissions CorporateM has committed gross violations of ] and should be sanctioned accordingly. Let's not get bogged down in the content dispute; that's what DR is for. As for the proposal to topic ban Middayexpress, I make the (very reasonable) request that WP policy be cited and discussed before sanctions are imposed simply for slowing down "progress" on an article. --] (]) 05:53, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
:CorporateM's userpage doesn't quite say that. Cherrypicking a diff and then misrepresenting it as a violation of a guideline (not a policy) in order to call for sanctions is a Bad Thing. And then you go on to ask for a policy basis for topic-banning Middayexpress? That's an impressive feat of doublethink. You're really not helping your case here; if you think the facts support your way forward, bring some actual facts - or step aside. We have enough drama already, we don't need people making up more. ] (]) 11:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::What's wrong with my so-called cherry picking? Is anyone even going to ''address'' Middayexpress's allegations, or are we choosing to sweep them under the rug? And I thought ] and ] were frequently cited in support of sanctions? And, again, what did Middayexpress do wrong? I'm not saying he/she did nothing wrong, just that as a general practice it would be a good and reasonable thing to identify what rule was violated before sanctions are imposed. What am I missing here? (P.S. There's no reason for me to "step aside" when I have no dog in this fight and I'm not an administrator.) --] (]) 17:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::With respect, that is not what I'm arguing. Please see below for that and the way forward from here. ] (]) 17:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza == | |||
Considering this discussion is going to get archived soon, can we refocus on finding resolution? Someone should suggest a course of action, such as a topic ban, article-protection, mediation, whatever in a new sub-section, for voting and consensus so the issue can get fixed. It's not as if all this back and forth sniping is productive - and I am concerned it will get archived without any meaningful solution, as has already occurred in the past at BLP and COIN. ] (]) 13:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*{{articlelinks|Aubrey Plaza}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Religião, Política e Futebol}} | |||
*{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}} | |||
{{u|Religião, Política e Futebol}} and {{u|ZanderAlbatraz1145}} have both been edit warring at ] over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration. | |||
:Entrusting the article to an uninvolved third party has already been proposed. ] (]) 15:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. ] (]) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Dr. Fleischman: The issue is essentially a content dispute, which unfortunately seems to have gotten out of hand. It makes little outward sense when you consider the fact that although CorporateM has admitted to being a paid public relations representative, he insists that Bryden is not his client. CorporateM is also not a WikiProject Somalia or WikiProject Eritrea member. In other words, he has no declared connection to the topic. His stated reason for editing the page is that he was pinged to do so at COIN . Besides CorporateM's stated Position on COI, what makes the situation especially awkward is that HOgilvy is himself a paid PR rep and specifically for Bryden. HOgilvy and CorporateM also apparently previously worked on something else together . So although CorporateM in this instance appears to have volunteered his services, he was hardly a neutral volunteer to begin with. Given the foregoing, the simplest solution to the impasse would be to entrust editing of the page to a neutral third party i.e. to a genuinely uninvolved editor(s), with no prior association with any of the involved parties that might influence his/her actions. He/she would then follow the protocol suggested above at 16:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC). ] (]) 14:54, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:{{nao}}It sounds like there may be some common ground here, but I'm no less troubled than before by your allegations. Drmies et al: I understand this is a nasty can of worms, but it represents a potentially pervasive practice of end-running around the formalities of ] that, IMO, could damage WP and its credibility in the long run. If the allegations are true, then that has troubling ramifications not just on the accused editors but on the whole community, particularly in light of the recent related media stories about paid editing. --] (]) 18:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. ] (]) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Would by any chance be one of the paid editing stories in question? I actually dealt directly with the "Biggleswiki" Bell Pottinger public relations representative that is profiled in that piece, and on the very ] wiki page that is also mentioned therein (another WikiProject Somalia page, incidentally). Hence, my preference for entrusting the Bryden page to uninvolved volunteer editors. ] (]) 18:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. ] (]) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Middayexpress, I appreciate your comments. DrFleischman, there is no reason to presume that just because Corp has a fully disclosed COI in one area or another, they should have some kind of blatant COI here--that doesn't make him necessarily neutral, but that's another matter. I think that three editors have said that by now; time to listen--you can't prove that Corp has a COI here just because they say they have one somewhere else. Frankly, your claim is a bit irritating, and I think you're in a hole and should stop digging. (For instance, I think you're inflating Midday's "allegations" in order to save your first unfortunate remark here.) Let me reiterate what I indicated before: I think Midday, Corp, etc. are in principle perfectly fine as editors for this article--the case for HOgilvy is obviously different. My beef is with Midday's behavior in the discussion, which I consider to be less than helpful, but I am not claiming they should be topic-banned because they have a COI or are incapable of editing neutrally, not at all. And, again reiterating, I do not agree with how Midday seems to define "uninvolved", but that's a matter of judgment. ] (]) 20:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::True, I don't see any ''direct'' evidence of a COI, but based on Middayexpress's allegations one wouldn't expect to find any. There ''would'' be circumstantial evidence in the form of communications between and among the conspiring parties, which is what Middayexpress may have been pointing to. I agree that these communications viewed in isolation aren't a problem (and in hindsight, they might not constitute improper canvassing) but are they signs of a larger, very bad pattern? We don't know because no one cares to take the allegations seriously. I find it alarming that CorporateM's actions would receive ''zero'' scrutiny (as far as I can tell) when he/she has stated that he/she regularly edits in a paid capacity while representing his/her clients' interests exclusively and at the expense of the project. Does CorporateM get a free pass because of his/her lengthy editing history and friendly manner? Don't mind me, I'm just the canary in the coal mine. Nothing to see here. <small>This will be my last comment in this discussion.</small> --] (]) 20:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at ], not here. ] (]) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Now that would be the most obvious example of a straw man - putting words in my mouth like "at the expense of the project". When in actuality, my words are more like "It is in the client's best interest I think. The best way to ensure the durability of the content and deflect COI criticisms is to simply make sure the content itself is exceptional" regarding bringing my COI works up to Good Article status. COI has almost nothing to do with this article whatsoever, except that a PR rep brought the article to the community's attention by asking us to add more primary sources. My response instead was to delete most of the article, which relied heavily on junk sources. The COI and canvassing accusations are just the actions of an editor frustrated that consensus is not in their favor and determined to make the article reflect their point-of-view by resorting to personal attacks and conspiracy theories. Midday is the one violating WP:COI by making unfounded COI accusations in an attempt to win an argument. | |||
:::{{re|Sundayclose}} Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says, {{tq|This complaint is not about the content directly}}. We are not discussing the content you're disputing, but it would be great if you did try to gain some consensus at the article talkpage. ] (]) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Though I honestly thought I'd waited too long to take further steps to protect a highly-viewed article, fair enough. PP has helped over the weekend: while IMO the history is easy enough to follow in terms of seeing what would have been needed for immediate preventative/protective measures, yes it is a bit more complicated. Full post to follow. ] (]) 12:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*There have been numerous edits to the ] article since 4 January, when it was announced her husband had died, later declared a suicide. Most of the edits revolve around adding this information and how to describe her husband in the rest of the article. Most seem to be well-intentioned, don't all meet best practice for BLP editing, but generally can be resolved with corrective edits. | |||
:::::In any case, this string has now become sufficiently long and convoluted enough, full of personal attacks and a pouncing comment from Midday on every editor with input, it's becoming increasingly unlikely anyone will bother to read the entire string or care to get involved. Who would volunteer to dive head-first into so much drama? ] (]) 22:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Separately, since 29 December, some users have been attempting to add a lot of '''information about the BLP subject's ethnic background and non-notable extended family'''. | |||
**The first edit to add this information was on 29 December by IP {{u|94.63.205.236}}. This was bot-reverted for the bad source. The same IP reinstated the edit moments later. Diffs: | |||
**{{ping|Sundayclose}} Then reverted the edit later that day, again with sourcing concerns. Diff: Sundayclose also warned the IP about BLP, and the IP went dormant. | |||
**During all the editing on 4 January, another IP, {{u|74.12.250.57}}, changed some of this info (describing Ashkenazi Jewish as Native American) for probably malicious reasons: - while another, {{u|2600:1000:b107:a865:e028:5f95:de45:c803}}, removed some of the ethnic background info with a strange edit reason ("Updated"): | |||
**The article was then confirmed-protected for two days. | |||
**On 10 January, {{ping|Religião, Política e Futebol}} made two edits (that for content purposes we will consider as one) to reinstate, and further expand upon, the information on family and ethnic background. Edits: | |||
**Another IP, {{u|2a00:23c6:ed85:7d01:3d25:a335:96f5:4b40}}, undid the edits on 10 January, again with sourcing and BLP concerns. Diff: | |||
**On 14 January, Religião reinstates their version without explanation. Diff: | |||
**On 15 January, I (Kingsif), undid this with the same source/BLP concerns. I also mention more specifically what could be BLP issues, and recommend using the talkpage to discuss the edit. Diff: | |||
**Also on 15 January, Religião adds the information back. In their edit reason, they seem to acknowledge the BLP specifics I mentioned but then claim that their content is not an issue. They also say that they don't need to discuss. Diff: | |||
**On 16 January, I (Kingsif), again remove the information. I address the content and sourcing concerns more forcefully, and the need for discussion. I warn Religião that their behaviour in the circumstances constitutes edit warring. Diff: | |||
**Also on 16 January, Religião once again added back the content. Their edit reason asked why they can't add personal information on non-notable people: a lack of knowledge of BIO policy, but unwillingness to do anything about that instead of edit-war. Diff: | |||
**I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection. | |||
*In regards to '''the mention of Baena's suicide''', this was first added shortly after it was first reported on 4 January. | |||
**{{ping|DiaMali}} did much of the immediate updating, including adding and removing this before it was confirmed. Diff: | |||
**Over the next two days, the mention was removed and reinstated by various other users based on industry sources/lack of confirmation. E.g.: , , | |||
**The edit-warring really began on 6 January, when {{ping|Ibeaa}} removed the mention. At this point, the suicide had been confirmed, and Ibeaa did not provide a reason. Possibly worth noting is that Ibeaa's edit was made the exact minute the article's protection was removed. Diff: | |||
**On 7 January, IP {{u|2804:d41:cb23:cc00:f4ae:3bc:747e:e196}} adds it back. Diff: Also on 7 January, Ibeaa removed it and the reference without explanation. Diff: | |||
**The next user to re-add the info was {{ping|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}, who also did not use an edit reason, on 9 January. Diff: | |||
**The IP {{u|2800:355:9:f9f3:3059:222e:2783:93b8}} removed it, without an edit reason, on 11 January. Diff: | |||
**{{ping|Sundayclose}} reverted the IP on the same day. Diff: | |||
**Ibeaa then removed the mention again, also on 11 January. Diff: | |||
**Zander then adds it back on 13 January, still without a reason. Not massively relevant, but Zander used the deprecated phrasing {{tq|committed suicide}} for the first time in this edit, which IP {{u|50.71.82.63}} fixed. Diff: | |||
**Between 13 and the morning (GMT) of 15 January, Zander added and Ibeaa removed the information ''five times each'', no edit reasons in sight. | |||
***Zander: (above 1), , , , | |||
***Ibeaa: , , , , | |||
**I (Kingsif) removed it on 15 January, tucked into the BLP edit, to try and stop the pair from edit warring by saying it should also be discussed. I should have probably done them as separate edits. Diff: | |||
**Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 15 January. Diff: | |||
**On 16 January, I again removed it as part of the larger edit. I made a clearer separation in this edit reason, to explain that because inclusion is (clearly) contentious, it should be discussed. Diff: | |||
**Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 16 January. Diff: | |||
**Ibeaa removes it, without a reason, also on 16 January. Diff: | |||
**Sundayclose added it back on 16 January, with the explanation that it is {{tq|accurate and properly sourced}}. FWIW, while accurate, it was sourced to People magazine, which ten days earlier was not accepted as a suitable source for the same information at the ] article. Recently-deceased needs more than a celebrity magazine that actually says "unconfirmed but believed". More pressing, I would expect Sundayclose to have pushed for discussion as the inclusion was clearly contentious. Diff: | |||
**Ibeaa then removed again on 16 January, with the reason that they didn't know why they were still pursuing the edit war. I would have honestly interpreted that to mean they weren't going to continue, but anyway. Diff: | |||
**Ibeaa's conduct was already reported here at ANI by Sundayclose, on 17 January, and they were blocked quickly. ]. | |||
***I don't know and won't speculate as to why Sundayclose did not also report Zander at this time. | |||
**After Ibeaa is blocked, Zander continues their side of the edit war on 17 January, still without providing an edit reason. Diff: | |||
**I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection. | |||
**Zander then adds the information back, without starting a discussion, before page protection is applied. They appear to have seen this ANI report, as they included an edit reason. Included in the edit reason is that it didn't seem {{tq|vital enough}} to explain themselves, which I can't accept in good faith given they were going back-and-forth directly with Ibeaa and had been told to discuss since the inclusion had proven contentious. Diff: | |||
*] (]) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Unfounded accusations? Your user page of longstanding stated that you are a paid editor and that your is that "if a PR person served Misplaced Pages's interests and their client's simultaneously, this would be a conflict of interest and would be unethical we serve our client's interests exclusively." Those are your own words, not mine. Pinging other users with no connection to the topic at hand is also an example of ] ("Posting an excessive number of messages to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand"). And please don't argue that you didn't ping them cause you did, and you said that you would too (viz. "I thought it would be better to just start a fresh string I can link to and ping a few editors so we can get additional input" ; "I've attempted to summarize the issues here and asked Drmies to get involved so we could have more than two editors and maybe figure things out" ). These are your own words and actions, so be sure to assume responsiblity for them. ] (]) 22:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:This is a lot of data. But it seems like if edit-warring is the problem, a complaint filed at ] or a request for page protection at ] would be more suitable than ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Proposal=== | |||
::You know I'm not a massive fan of ANI and would really prefer to dump data and let y'all assess it yourselves, but if this is to be pursued beyond the immediate article protection (as you can see, it seems to be a magnet), then as I see it what we have is: one case of not-too-bad edit warring from Religião, but with quite BIO/BLP sensitive information and a user who has indicated they will not abide if they disagree, and then one case of probably fine content from Zander, but with truly chronic edit warring and the attitude that since the other guy was blocked they're righteous. Both users have been informed of BLP-contentious but the intersection of the actual edit warring with their flippant-at-best attitudes and the particular sensitive area, makes me think that some further addressing (at least asking them to ''acknowledge'' the issues) is needed to make sure it doesn't recur. ] (]) 12:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Per the discussion above, I suggest voluntary topic bans for Midday and myself, from article-space and Talk-space, while a new, previously uninvolved editor(s) from this board boldly make whatever changes they feel are appropriate. ] (]) 19:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Death threats by 2.98.176.93 == | |||
* <b>Support</b>: As nominator. Plenty of other articles for us to work on and no reason to feed the drama on this one. ] (]) 19:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{atop | |||
| status = BLOCKED | |||
| result = Blocked and TPA revoked, nothing further. {{nac}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Conditional support''': I would support the proposal above for voluntary withdrawal from editing the page provided that it: a) applies to all the involved parties equally, b) is temporary/lasts until the issue is resolved, c) the uninvolved editor(s) has had no previous dealings with any of the involved parties, as that might serve to influence his/her actions, d) the uninvolved editor(s) for the same reason must be a volunteer and not a paid editor. ] (]) 19:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
}} | |||
**But that would disqualify all other editors mentioned here, no? (Including me, I suppose.) Then who's left who cares? Or, I don't see why bobrayner and Keithbob and Lexein and perhaps others should be excluded just because the two main parties are recused. I'll gladly recuse myself, since I have little interest in this biography, and I am sure ''you'' don't want me editing that article, but I see no grounds to disqualify the others--except, again, for HOgilvy who, setting aside the presumption of good faith I usually have, should probably not be editing this article. ] (]) 20:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{userlinks|2.98.176.93}} Left a death threat {{diff||1270338492|1270334632|here - diff}}<br /> | |||
:::As a Bryden official public relations representative, ] bars HOgilvy from editing the page directly. Keithbob and Lexein were both pinged to the page by CorporateM. Bobrayner was not involved; however, he appears to be a ] member along with CorporateM. To ensure neutrality, the uninvolved editor(s) shouldn't have any previous associations or dealings with any of the involved parties (myself included). The ] seems a neutral place to select a candidate(s) from. ] (]) 20:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Note: 30 day block by {{user|Bbb23}} ] (]) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::(Um, COI PR article editing by ] for ''small'' corrections with ] sources, and COI PR discussion on talk page for everything else, would be appropriate, IMHO). --] (]) 00:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Death threat left after block. Talk page access? ] (]) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::That's interesting, seeing as how ] stipulates that "you should also avoid writing about yourself or people you know in articles on other topics This includes people with whom you could reasonably be said to have an antagonistic relationship in real life If you have a personal connection to a topic or a person, (such as being an employee, familial ties, or other relationship), you are advised to refrain from editing articles directly, and to provide full disclosure of the connection." ] (]) 17:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*TPA removed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::: Are ] really that deliberately dimwitted? I choose my words very carefully, as in "''small'' corrections", just as allowed explicitly in ], and "discussion on talk page for everything else", just as explicitly stated in ]. --] (]) 02:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Insults are uncalled for (see ]). That said, the only exception ] makes in this regard is with defamation or a serious error, and even here there's a very involved administrative protocol that must concurrently be followed: "An exception to editing an article about yourself or someone you know is made if the article contains defamation or a serious error that needs to be corrected quickly If you do make such an edit, follow it up with an email to WP:OTRS, Misplaced Pages's volunteer response team, or ask for help on WP:BLPN, our noticeboard for articles about living persons." ] (]) 14:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I think {{tl|Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Your selective reading notwithstanding, I presume. --] (]) 01:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. ] (]) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Keithbob and Lexein participated in the talk page discussion after being pinged by CorporateM. Keithbob also edited the page itself. That makes them involved editors. This proposal is for a new, previously uninvolved editor(s). ] (]) 22:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::If you use ], you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::{{facepalm|Look,|45px}} ], with respect, you're really going about this all wrong. Look at my edit history. Take me to any disciplinary or sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry noticeboard you like. Not only will any kind of charge you could possibly fabricate be ''instantly'' thrown out, but you'd better be wary of ]. I'll edit any article I want, and I'll discuss on any article talk page I want, because I've '''''never''''' been article-banned, topic-banned, blocked, or disciplined ''anywhere'', in seven years here. I'll delete claims sourced by unreliable or biased sources ''everywhere I find them'', because ''you don't get to turn Misplaced Pages into your own personal attack forum.'' And I'll support on-policy edits by ''any editor I choose'', based on my experience and familiarity with relevant policies, namely ]. If it takes this ANI for you to learn how to edit neutrally, so be it. Learn or be banned, that's my advice to you. Don't say I didn't warn you: I warned you directly that you really wouldn't like it if I got involved. Do you know why? Because you're wrong about nearly every claim you've made, and I'm ''not'' wrong. --] (]) 00:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Please settle down and kindly stop ]ing. You are putting words in my mouth and answering allegations that were never even made. Everything that I actually indicated in my last comment is factual. There is a difference between appropriate notification for input and inappropriate notification; if there wasn't, the canvassing policy would serve no purpose. Pinging/contacting an editor with no connection to the topic -- other than the fact that they happen to be friends or acquaintances -- is a clear example of ]: "The following behaviors are regarded as characteristic of inappropriate notification (and may be seen as disruptive) Posting an excessive number of messages to individual users, or to users with no significant connection to the topic at hand Soliciting support other than by posting direct messages, such as using a custom signature with a message promoting a specific position on any issue being discussed"). This happens to be what CorporateM did (another e.g.: "I was even more surprised that User:Lexein or someone else didn't revert him back But if nobody else does the reverting, than it is inappropriate for me to get into an edit-war just between the two of us" ). If I had done the same, this surely would not have been difficult to appreciate. ] (]) 17:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Exactly, ], thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment:''' I have frequently worked with Corporate M. When he edits for a client, he is scrupulously neutral, though his style still sometimes shows traces of his long experience in the PR industry,. He also edits more generally, andI respect his courageous willingness --especially for someone himself known for his declared COI editing-- to work in areas which have been thoroughly disrupted by others editors with a declared or undeclared COI. When he does work in these areas I trust both his objectivity and judgement, including his awareness of the problems that may be present in other people's editing. I have not myself investigated the sources in this area, but if anyone can straighten them out, he can do so, and so far from banning him from the subject, I think we should be encouraging him to take it in hand. ] (]) 00:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Not that my COI work is actually related to this article, but I am both flattered, but hesitant to accept ]'s compliments. Sometimes I over-compensate for my COI and other times it shows more than I think. But where I do have a COI, I lean on other editors to keep me on the straight and narrow and they rarely fail me. Since I do not have a COI here, it's a bit of an offshoot topic. If someone wants to discuss my COI work, they should start a separate string at ]. ] (]) 00:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See ] for your options." ] (]) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
** In addition to ], ] and myself, other editors like ], ] and ], have been active on the talk page. Maybe they would like to comment on this situation.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 00:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
*** Also note that concerns for this article have been posted recently at BLPN by ] on and by CorporateM on .--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 00:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
***None of this has anything to do with "pinging" or any sort of deliberate ganging up by experienced editors. It '''''only''''' has to do with awful bias by an intransigent editor, PR editing done without the cleanest possible hands, and a bunch of long time editors (including one open PR editor editing cleanly outside his PR area) stepping in to try to clean up the toxic, biased, badly sourced mess. --] (]) 00:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Actually, it has plenty to do with pinging/inappropriate notification. Had that not happened (or had I been the one doing the pinging), the proceedings and involved parties would have been (and indeed were up to that point) very different. ] (]) 17:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Keep it up. I couldn't do a better job of getting you topic banned than exactly what you're doing. --] (]) 02:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Editors' only concern should be to create as reliable an encyclopedia as possible. ] (]) 14:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::{{facepalm|That's|45px}} what you're doing here? ''We'' always exclude unreliable sources and avoid bias and unbalanced and unattributed sourcing in BLP, but that's not ''your'' thing, I guess. --] (]) 01:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Good to hear. I will be sure to keep that in mind. ] (]) 13:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' voluntary topic ban by Middayexpress, voluntary article-edit ban by ]. By wanting ''everyone'' out of the pool, Middayexpress assumes bad faith, and wholeheartedly declares the pool ''contaminated'', and so ''de rigeur'' supports reverting the article back to before the "firing" edits were added. You don't evacuate the pool and then just leave the turd floating in it. Alternatively, Middayexpress either trusts experienced editors who understand BLP and writing neutrally, or not. If so, ] will voluntarily self-topic ban. If not, then we know Middayexpress's agenda. What Middayexpress fails to understand that even the worst news can be presented neutrally, and attributed to the source, so the reader can immediately glean the apparent bias in the source. See? Done. One sentence. In my opinion. --] (]) 01:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::That's not at all the situation or what transpired. The fact is, if I had a so-called "agenda", I wouldn't be willing to entrust the article to an uninvolved volunteer editor(s) as I've repeatedly proposed. You'll note above the link I produced pointing to the ]... now surely there's no better place to select a genuinely neutral candidate from. ] (]) 17:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Pretend as much as you like, but noone is buying it. Your take on events is quite skewed and not at all in line with policy, guideline, or essay. Nice try. Plus, again, you fail to address your lack of comprehension of neutral writing, and fail to respect that comprehension and skill practiced by others. The fact that I object to your failures has no effect on my ability to be neutral with respect to article content, even to the extent of trivially and completely fixing all of your mistakes in one step. You continue to fail to ask for help from knowledgeable editors who really know how to accomplish neutral writing. Your inability to discuss effectively is evident from your edit count and edit history, given that only about (generously) ''eight percent'' of your edits have been performed in Talk pages. Only your voluntary withdrawal from that article, and corrective involvement directly in it by myself and other editors who have earned my respect, will save it. '''Your demand that anyone who has even discussed the article stop editing it is a transparent gambit, and it is in bad faith. Such a demand would, if in good faith, be accompanied by a willingness to revert to before ''your'' edits. Hence, your demand is in bad faith.''' Answer my question: do you want me to get involved? I haven't gotten involved in the editing of the article yet, in case you hadn't noticed. Consider your answer carefully. --] (]) 02:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Personal jabs aside, as one of the main contributors to WikiProject Somalia, I am a knowledgeable editor in my own right and have certainly helped build many a project page. That is why most of my contributions are indeed to article-space. Project members can vouch for that. As for the article in question, I never demanded that anyone who has even discussed the page stop editing it. I pointed out that the proposal CorporateM made was for "a new, previously uninvolved editor(s)", and I indicated that I supported a voluntary withdrawal from editing the page provided that it applied to all the involved parties equally. Anyway, that was a while ago, prior to Obiwankenobi's helpful remarks, after which I agreed to his suggestions, including recusing myself from the article-space and instead engaging in civil talk page discourse. ] (]) 14:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Don't say you didn't: you did. Are you really that deliberately ignorant of what you wrote? Now I dread even looking at WikiProject Somalia, given the gaming and bad faith editing and bad faith accusations you've spread around here. I abhor the now necessary task having to vet every single claim and cited source you've ever added anywhere. Just because you've gotten away with something for apparently years doesn't mean you were ever right about any of it. 80,000 edits of the low quality you performed at the BLP under dispute? Horrifying to consider. You just don't seem to get it. Stop discussing on article Talk page as long as you persist in campaigning against the letter and spirit of BLP. Article Talk is not your private learning experience zone; do that at IRC, your own Talk page, and Help. --] (]) 01:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::You don't know anything about me and vice versa. We only just met the other day asfaik. You are also not in a position to tell me what to do. For the rest, please see ]. ] (]) 13:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Repeated copyvios by Manannan67 == | |||
===Proposed topic ban of MiddayExpress=== | |||
*{{userlinks|Manannan67}} | |||
* <b>Support</b> as nominator for persistent counter-consensus editing and disruptive Talk page participation, such as abusive COI accusations, ABF, personal attacks, etc. As mentioned above, I would volunteer for an IBAN myself to reduce drama, but it doesn't seem like it would matter - being that I can't force others to volunteer for one and if we all the involved editors withdrew, there would be no one left to edit the article. ] (]) 01:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
] has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (, , from ], , ), | |||
* '''Support''' Based on this thread and my experience on the talk page there doesn't seem to be much willingness to collaborate or respect consensus. The subject of this BLP deserves neutral editing by this community. If Midday is topic banned I would be happy to walk away from the BLP and allow ''any'' other editors to adjust it as they see fit. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 15:21, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
most recently , when I discovered a they placed on . The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did one early warning from the talk page. ] (]) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''': The discussion was between myself, Bryden's official PR rep, another paid editor/CorporateM, and acquaintances of CorporateM's that he later on pinged for input (such as Keithbob above). Most of the actual editing, however, was between myself, CorporateM and Keithbob, and took place after the initial discussion page posts by CorporateM's other pinged parties. So talk of a retroactively applicable consensus does not apply. That said, I indicated earlier that like CorporateM, I was willing to voluntarily withdraw from editing the page until the content issue is resolved. However, note that the stated proposal was only for "a new, previously uninvolved editor(s)". To ensure neutrality, my suggestion was that this new, previously uninvolved editor(s) is selected from the ] rather than this board. This seems to have fallen on deaf ears, though, and instead the very editors that CorporateM pinged for support are now ironically trying to topic ban me from the page. Clearly, there's a misunderstanding here about what constitutes ]. I'll contact the editors who drafted that policy for clarification. ] (]) 17:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**Good luck with that. Why you'd want an admin to do this job is not clear to me. What CorporateM was supposed to be canvassing about is also not clear. CorporateM's messages were limited, neutral, and open--and they would have to be non-partisan, since he cannot possibly know what I would think of Bryden and his biography (in part because he couldn't, in part because I didn't have any thoughts on a man I'd never heard of before). ] (]) 17:21, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::That's just it. The problem is both in the choice of editors ("users with no significant connection to the topic at hand") and the notification method used/pinging ("soliciting support other than by posting direct messages, such as using a custom signature with a message promoting a specific position on any issue being discussed"). One obviously doesn't ping strangers, only people one already knows/acquaintances. ] (]) 18:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Note: I was asked by Middayexpress to opine on the issue of WP:CANVASS here, as I'd been involved in editing that policy and proposing changes in the past. This is a delicate situation. I've looked over the notifications by CorporateM, and while they were ''generally'' neutral, there were targeted at a specific set of experienced editors, some of whom presumably have had interactions with CorporateM in the past (in what guise I haven't taken the time to dig). I don't think this was a chummy notification of CorporateM's best pals, but the selection of editors could have been biased towards editors who CorporateM may have believed would agree with them on the general issue of sourcing around BLPs - this could have been unconscious or perhaps it didn't even happen; another perfectly reasonable explanation is that CorporateM selected a few wise editors who had deep experience in BLPs w/o any particular thought as to how they would come down on any particular side of a content dispute. This is the reason the canvassing policy specifically asks you not to target specific users unless you can demonstrate some previous involvement, to avoid the appearance of vote stacking. Nonetheless, on the scale of 1-10 of canvass violations, I would rate this at about a 2, since this is not an RFC, nor an AFD, and there isn't any !voting going on here, rather it is a slow simmering content dispute, into which it is almost always a good idea to add a few more neutral heads, and such collaboration happens all the time - indeed, DrMies talk page is a veritable cornicopia of "Hi Drmies, something's happening at this article you've never touched before, would you mind taking a look?" Thus, CorporateM's idea of bringing more bodies to the party was a good one, I just think in retrospect given the blowback and the rather tense editing which precluded it, it could have been handled in a bit more of a collaborative fashion, and with a notification that was slightly more neutral (for example, we have "Well, instead I started taking a heavy axe to it, because it was full of primary sources, op-eds and the like. When I started cutting the controversies too, I started bumping into disagreements and edit-conflicts, etc. with another editor." - it's not quite neutral, as they are positioning themselves in the "right" - e.g. who wouldn't want to cut primary sources and op-eds, and the other editor in the "wrong", because they disagreed). I myself try to use {{tl|pls}} for any such notifications, without adding too much comment. Another way would have been proposing/agreeing upon a set of neutral/uninvolved editors along with Middayexpress who would be notified, or by using dispute resolution / 3rd opinion or other facilities available for these situations. But in the grand scheme of things, I don't think this merits much sanction, except perhaps walking CorporateM past the fish market so they can smell the fresh trout - but in my mind this isn't worth even a minnow. | |||
:I do feel in general, given the tenor of the conversation above, the two key actors involved to date, Middayexpress and CorporateM, should voluntarily step away from the article for the time being, and a broader set of notifications about this article should be placed at 3-5 notice boards/wiki projects to get more neutral eyes on the article. I would also strongly suggest to Middayexpress (and others) that they also assume good faith w.r.t CorporateM - I haven't had many (or any?) interactions with them but from afar they are certainly one of the more full-o-disclosure paid editors at the project - we have oodles of COI editors who never declare themselves as such, and CorporateM seems to be much more circumspect than others - as such, we should give them the benefit of the doubt here and not make accusations of some sort of behind-the-scenes ''quid pro quo'' arrangement. Ultimately, this is a content dispute, so we should all simmer down on the alphabet soup of accusations, provide some broad (and repeated if necessary) notifications to attract some other editors to the cause, and focus on the article content. An instructive example can be found at ], who committed several "crimes" against the wiki, yet the article itself is rather neutral, balanced, and well sourced. The sausage factory that made it that way was a bit ugly, but ultimately commonsense and reason and calm thinking prevailed. If we can do it for Young, we can do it for Bryden. There isn't a rush on Bryden's article, and I think setting up some general principles for sourcing (what sources should be allowed) and coming to rough consensus around that, then rebuilding the article around those is the best path. --] (]) 20:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Based on my brief reading to date, I would '''oppose''' a formal topic ban for Middayexpress at this point, provided they ease up on the alphabet soup of accusations, and consider self-recusing themselves from edits to the article and participating in a civil/non-combative manner on the talk page instead.-] (]) 20:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks for the refreshingly even-handed assessment, Obiwankenobi. I do not object to self-recusing myself from edits to the article-space and focusing instead on civil talk page discourse. The Robert Clark Young example cited above is especially helpful; I agree that that indeed is an instructive model to follow. ] (]) 21:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Did we really ''have'' to bring up that example? Obi? That's a painful blast from the past... Thanks, BTW, for that lengthy analysis: your time and effort are appreciated. ] (]) 02:24, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::A few other thoughts - on the subject of neutral editors, I don't know most participating there except Drmies, who is a deeply experienced editor on BLPs, so I would be very comfortable with his neutrality on this subject. My perusal of the talk page also suggests that the other editors who came into the discussion - even if the notification wasn't 100% ideal - are arguing from a position of policy and BLP, and even though they disagree with you at points I don't think there's anything nefarious going on. It can be hard to write a neutral piece when most pieces are negative, so this requires some delicate handling, and patience. I also think the one editor with a proclaimed COI has been very forthright about same, so we shouldn't shame them for having openly declared a COI and proposing edits on the talk page. I can see from your history that you edit a lot of articles on Somalia and are well versed on the region and issues thereof, but you need to be careful to ensure your own views aren't coloring your approach on this article.--] (]) 22:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Fair enough. I do edit a lot of WikiProject Somalia and WikiProject Eritrea pages, as I am a member of both Projects. That's what brought me to the Bryden page (he's the former Coordinator for the UN's Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group). My skepticism with regard to the neutrality of public relations representatives was shaped by a previous encounter with another such PR rep on the ] project page. He didn't disclose that he worked for Bell Pottinger and that Dahabshiil was his client, and there was a big scandal over this. HOgilvy did, however, disclose that Bryden was his client and I commended him for that, though I gotta admit I was still a little apprehensive about the whole thing. ] (]) 14:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::'''Point of information:''' I have participated at BLPN for years and have almost 300 edits to that noticeboard alone. I have written a few BLP's, reviewed a few at AfC, brought a few to GA status, and reviewed a few for GA status. Overall, I'd say I've made very significant contributions to more than 100 BLP's, and minor contributions to a few hundred more during my 5 years at WP. Many of 'significant contribution BLPs' are listed in the Projects section of my user page in case anyone wants to see a partial list. Peace, --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 22:47, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::I'll take your word for it, and would hence add you to the list of "neutral editors who should be allowed to have a go at this" --] (]) 22:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::And I will recuse myself, since my admin status may color how others perceive me. (Midday's suggestion to look at a list of admins to find neutral editors isn't a very good one.) In addition, though Midday hasn't said it in so many words, ''my'' involvement would probably hinder ''their'' acceptance of any resulting version. I don't mind recusing myself, by the way, since I have no interest in Bryden and I ''hate'' editing biographies. BTW, I have faith in Keithbob and Bobrayner, and I can come up with a half a dozen other names, but I do wonder who'd want to touch this with a stick.<p>One more thing and then I'll bow out. I really appreciate Obi's words. Here's the thing with involvement, as loosely defined as Midday does it. ]'s article mentions a librarian in Tuscaloosa. It's entirely possible that this librarian is the one who "explained" belly button shots to me; last names weren't always mandatory in the bar I used to frequent. Does that mean I should stay away from the article? By the same token, I have on occasion defended Qworty's edits (SOME of them!); does that mean I should stay away from that article? I have on occasion worked with Obi (see ]), and I have on occasion had harsh exchanges with them. Does that mean we two are "involved" with each other in a way that impedes our working together in a neutral manner? No. ] (]) 02:44, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::I have faith in Obiwankenobi's judgement. If he gives you the green light to edit the page as an involved editor, then I have no objections either. ] (]) 14:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Support a topic ban for Middayexpress (and if CorporateM wants to volunteer for a topic ban, so be it). The former's ] and conspiracy theories are causing real problems. I realise that some of the drama is hard to follow for people stumbling across this thread, but if Middayexpress now even takes the line that uninvolved members of ] are unable to edit the article neutrally... that's just absurd. ] (]) 08:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Just so it's clear, I did not say that uninvolved WikiProject Cooperation members are necessarily unable to edit the article neutrally. I said that "Bobrayner was not involved; however, he appears to be a Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cooperation member along with CorporateM". In other words, I was simply pointing out an association that had not been previously been disclosed. Now that I've agreed with Obiwankenobi's suggestion to voluntarily recuse myself from the article-space and instead focus on civil talk page discourse, would you object if uninvolved WikiProject Somalia and WikiProject Eritrea members were to edit the page alongside the involved editors that Obiwankenobi okays and the uninvolved WikiProject Cooperation members? ] (]) 14:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I don't think being members of the same wiki project is something that needs to be disclosed. I also don't want to be seen as an approver of who can edit, I was simply stating that for a few ppl I've looked at I see no problem personally with them editing. As for the Somalia project people, I say the more the merrier, so notify those projects neutrally and see who joins - they don't need permission from anyone here.--] (]) 00:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Thanks; will do. ] (]) 13:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*<b>Comment</b>: There is support for a topic ban from ], ], ], ] and ] with some saying we should both recuse voluntarily. And even Midday and myself seem to support it, save that Midday has additional conditions. There are no opposes, except that ] has said that I should continue editing. I don't know how these drama boards work - is that enough to get an action on this? ] (]) 12:33, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Note - I don't support a formal topic ban; instead I suggested a voluntary self-ban for both Midday and CorporateM, to allow some other editors to dig in and bring this article up to snuff.--] (]) 19:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The only uninvolved, non-WikiProject Cooperation members are Obinwankenobi and Dr. Fleischman, and neither supports a topic ban. No WikiProject Somalia and WikiProject Eritrea members have also weighed in. As for me, I support what Obiwankenobi does: voluntary self-recusing from article-space until the issue is resolved. ] (]) 14:56, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Few people in this thread will (or should) take DrFleischman seriously. They have mistakenly branded CorporateM as a newly-established COI editor; that they have struck ''some'' of those comments doesn't take away from the fact that they are under some serious misapprehensions and don't seem to own up to it (in a hole, they keep digging). Their involvement, thus, prevents them from being an acceptably neutral editor in a tendentious BLP. ] (]) 23:54, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment:''' I have had extensive interaction with CorporateM, and they are always VERY VERY cautious and "by the book". Even if they volunteer for it, I would oppose a topic ban for CorporateM. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 12:41, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: Do you have a !vote on the ]? --] (]) 14:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to ] which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. ] (]) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Just FYI - in the context of Midday's canvassing accusations, I have worked with North extensively on articles where I actually do have a COI, but I did not notify him/her of this string. ] (]) 13:56, 23 October 2013 (UTC | |||
::See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to ]. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. ] (]) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." ] (]) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. ] (]) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::: Then I have no idea to what you are referring. As I said, I am not familiar with "Portraits of the Saints", nor do I know from where they got their info. ] (]) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Naniwoofg == | |||
*'''Strongly support topic ban'''. Mddayexpress has aso been editing in anti-Somaliland edits in other parts of wikipedia, such as trying to get Somaliland-related categories deleted. he oviously is not impartial in this area. ] ] 15:54, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Ha ha, I promised I wouldn't comment anymore in this discussion but this one really made me laugh out loud! I never realized that impartiality was a prerequisite to editing! --] (]) 17:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{User|Naniwoofg}} has been the subject of a complaint at ] for issues involving images and ]. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint includes refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. ] (]) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''': Pass a Method is a longtime disruptive presence on the Somali-related pages. He followed me to this post from the '']'' page, which I only just finished editing. A clear example of ] ("Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages"). The categories that he alludes to (which he created) were, incidentally, removed by another editor , and one was ultimately deleted as well by an admin . ] (]) 16:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support topic ban for Middayexpress''' It can be a mild one (shorter and automatically expiring). Absolutely oppose even a voluntary topic ban of CorporateM. There is absolutely no reason to even consider that. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 17:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
====Summary of proprosal to ban ] from editing ]==== | |||
*'''Support:''' ], ], ], ], ], ], ], | |||
*'''Oppose:''' ], ] | |||
Would an admin like to summarize and close this 11,570 word thread?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 17:35, 24 October 2013 (UTC) Added me. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 17:04, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Can we get a follow-up on this? @] has failed to respond to all inquiries on affected article talk pages, their user talk page, and the Tambayan PH talk page. We have been reverting their unexplained and unusual edits to the infoboxes of several Philippine road and building articles back and forth for the past few days. ] (] • ]) 07:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''': That is incorrect. Pass a Method's vote doesn't count since he Wikihounded me here from another page. The only uninvolved, non-WikiProject Cooperation members are ] and ], and neither supports a topic ban, nor obviously do I. No WikiProject Somalia and WikiProject Eritrea members have also weighed in. The actual summary should thus read: Voluntary self-recusing from the page accepted until issue resolved. Editing by WikiProject Cooperation, WikiProject Somalia and WikiProject Eritrea members on page allowed (see 00:09, 24 October 2013 comment above by Obiwankenobi). ] (]) 17:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:'''Support''' sanctioning this user. One latest questionable edit is on ] article, which . Naniwoofg claimed to had updated the infobox images, but the user used an image of the ] ''before the 2019 renovation''. I replaced Naniwoofg's choice of the church image with the one image taken after the renovation. <span style="font-family:Footlight MT">] <span style="background:#68FCF1">('']''|'']'')</span></span> 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
**Nonsense. You're clutching at straws. Of course Pass a Method's vote counts. We don't discount people cause you don't like them. Fleischman should be "counted", but his comments taken with a grain of salt since he...etc. If an admin closes this as "yes, topic ban", just for you, then it's not voluntary. Six vs. three (or one and a half, since really you're out and Fleischman's comments are tainted by inaccuracy) may not be much critical mass, but it may be enough since it's only for one specific article (and its talk page!). ] (]) 18:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
***Actually, that is fact. Pass a Method followed me yesterday to this post from the '']'' page, which I had only literally just finished editing. That is a clear example of ] ("Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages"). The vote count is thus five to three, hardly a consensus. Per the ] I have also just alerted WikiProject Somalia and WikiProject Eritrea members to this discussion so that they may weigh in for the first time. ] (]) 18:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
****It's possible a broad topic ban is needed, if MiddayExpress is using Misplaced Pages to express his personal views against the secession of Somoliland project-wide. I find it unlikely that this editing pattern only exists on this particular BLP and the pattern of editing seems to be related to the article-subject's support of the country's secession. However, that is probably beyond the scope of this string, as is establishing whether there is some hounding going on. In any case, disqualifying participants from voting based on membership at a WikiProject is well.... yah.... There are actually no opposes to the topic ban, only difference in whether I should also voluntarily stay away from the page, whether the topic ban should be voluntary or forced, and if other conditions are applied. There is no need to hammer out these details - an admin should make a bold close and I will respect whatever their decision is, whether it involves my staying away from the article or not. ] (]) 02:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*****I've never added any personal views/comments to the Bryden page, so you're reaching there. Everything I did actually add was sourced; the most you can do is thus complain about the cited sources (which apparently includes Bryden's own alma mater). That makes this a standard content dispute. Pass a Method's vote also indeed doesn't count as its a clear example of Wikihounding. He followed me to this post from the ''Captain Phillips (film)'' page, and within minutes of when I had replaced an image that he had added earlier there and voted along with two other editors to streamline the page's controversies section . Time stamps readily show this (incidentally, I was also later thanked for those edits by ]). As for the actual number of votes opposing a topic ban, there are three. Besides myself, ] has not supported the proposal. In fact, he actually appeared to recommend that you be sanctioned for your own behavior (his remark above from 23:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC)). In his own post above from 20:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) ] also clearly indicated that he would oppose a formal topic ban provided that I agreed to recuse myself from editing the article and focus instead on civil talk page discourse. I've agreed with those conditions. Despite this, you for some reason keep overlooking Obiwankenobi's position statement, even when he told you directly that "I don't support a formal topic ban; instead I suggested a voluntary self-ban for both Midday and CorporateM, to allow some other editors to dig in and bring this article up to snuff". For my part, I agree not to revert wholesale back to whatever the previous page version was after the self-recusing period has ended. ] (]) 14:00, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
OK, now its a 12,320 word thread. Would an Admin like to summarize and close?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 15:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Patience please. The Horn of Africa Project members were only just contacted for the first time, and they should weigh in shortly. ] (]) 13:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::So--you can 'contact' your editing friends at the Project, but when CorporateM does something like that it's conflict-of-interest generated 'ping'ing? Nice. And why should we wait? The Bryden thing has been going on for weeks, and this thread has been here for far too long. ] (]) 13:38, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::CorporateM's friend contacts are a fait accompli, and are largely the reason why the discussion has gone the way it has. Although Bryden is a Horn of Africa specialist and the UN's former Coordinator for the Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group, the thread starter by contrast never bothered notifying the Horn of Africa projects of this discussion (which btw is allowed per ]: "an editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following the talk page of one or more articles, WikiProjects, or other Misplaced Pages collaborations directly related to the topic under discussion"). I therefore took the initiative and notified those projects and "the user talk pages of concerned editors editors known for expertise in the field", but only after having received the go ahead from ] (comment above from 00:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC): "As for the Somalia project people, I say the more the merrier, so notify those projects neutrally and see who joins - they don't need permission from anyone here"). That said, those project members/concerned editors should weigh in shortly for the first time. Closing the thread prematurely won't take into consideration their input, so it won't reflect the actual community consensus; just a selective portion of it. ] (]) 14:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''No ban'''let them agree to stand back: Let me first apologies this is so much text I am totally lost. I just cannot follow it or grasp all of the issues. I feel like I should weigh in. I am not experienced at editing on these kinds of things also. My position is all editors should on their own not continue to edit the page. but should be available to answer questions on the talk page.(i have a few) They should control themselves so as not to fly off into long tracts of text. B/c what is happening is there is more text on arguing than text in the article. I honestly want to know what the issue is with the article so I can assist in any way I can. but It would be better for all editors involved to agree to step back. state the issue on the TK page and let fresh eyes look it over. --] (]) 16:43, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
==Okvishal and years of self promotion == | |||
== Anon IP adding uncited info to many pages on a massive scale, recently == | |||
{{atop|1=Okvishal indef'd. Article has been deleted (at its most recent title attempt, ]) and salt applied to all three variations that have been used. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
{{Ping|Okvishal}} has been an editor for 14 years. They have 138 edits but only 11 of them are non-deleted ones and those non deleted ones are also for self promotion or promotion of their feature film. A look at their talkpage shows the sheer scale of self promotional editing they have done over the course of their wikicareer. Right after joining they created an autobiography which was speedy deleted, they recreated the article under a different title and it was as well. Over the course of 14 years, they have recreated their article and those of related topics several times all leading to waste of community time through AfDs as ,,, and most recently at . It is clear that they are not (and never were) here to build an encyclopaedia. Consider blocking them and ]ing ],],] etc. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 12:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I've blocked them as it's clear they're only here to promote their non-notable self. ] ] 22:29, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to ]], maybe more) == | |||
The IP editor ] has been adding tons of info to a wide variety of music-related pages. Some of this info may be good, some of it clearly isn't, but it's difficult to tell as the info is never, not even once, given a citation of any kind. I tried to revert a bunch of the edits but it's like plugging a finger into a dyke. I don't have the time to do all of them. | |||
*{{userlinks|Cherkash}} | |||
Another detail that seems to justify at least a short block of this IP is that they consistently add a large amount of info, then make a small, inconsequential edit, in order to make it slightly more difficult to undo their first, substantive edit. | |||
The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see ], ]). </br> | |||
The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the ] pages and even had raised the issue here , with no visible actions following. | |||
The IP's ] already had notes from at least two other editors asking them to stop adding uncited info anonymously (and I added one) but that seems to have had no effect. | |||
Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg | |||
Not sure what to do except to post a notice here and recommend a short block; if nothing else, that will at least get the editor's attention. | |||
] (]) 02:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints. | |||
:Not being familiar with the procedure of reporting this form of disruptive editing I do support this action being taken with the above mentioned editor. Maybe it will have an effect on his future edits. ] (]) 12:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Other examples can be seen from ], such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: , | |||
::Can any admin, please, take some action on this? The vandalism continues from this one IP address. ] (]) 06:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN ], ], ], ]. | |||
:::Last edit was 21:47, 20 October, let us know if the IP continues (or let me know). ] (]) 11:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content. | |||
::::It's still going on, just not on the same scale as before. Two articles on 22 October, one on 23 October, all on music pages. The first two were just more the uncited personnel listings; the one on 23 October was the vandalism that the IP in question had added many times before. Still no response from that IP. ] (]) 05:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? ] (]) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the ], e.g. about normalising ], and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in ]. | |||
::I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via ''de facto'' statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often ], which I cannot even comment on. ] (]) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Here is a link to the last time this was raised here. | |||
:::The short form: there appears to be a dispute between use of de-facto or de-jure borders. That is why Taiwan comes up. Some editors appear to believe that it is more neutral to either use de facto borders (Taiwan independent, Crimea not part of Ukraine) rather than de jure borders (Taiwan = China, Crimea = Ukraine). | |||
:::I would suggest, whether de facto or de jurw borders are used the map should be consistent in that usage. I would also suggest that {{User|Unas964}} should adhere to ] while {{user|Cherkash}} needs to start communicating with other editors at least minimally, which will likely ease such assumptions regarding their editing.] (]) 19:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::In any case, what's the alleged misbehaviour here? We can't stop an editor uploading images on commons, nor can we do anything about what is in their categories. We can prevent these images being used in our articles but is the editor actually the one putting them in our articles? ] (]) 23:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I am the editor in question. I am Ukrainian. This is not anti Ukrainian, it’s anti nazi. Everything is true and properly sourced. Problems don’t get fixed unless you recognize them. I’ve given specific criticisms about the encyclopedia that are all true and added known contributors. This is not a anti Ukrainian effort and I’m very taken back by this accusation. Clearly nobody here is assuming good faith ] (]) 17:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Occupation of Crimea is anti nazi? What proper source can prove that? Only Russian propagandists exploit such a narrative. ] (]) 18:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{Out}}UN Resolutions are not Misplaced Pages guidelines. They're not even binding for the countries involved, let alone Misplaced Pages. UN Resolutions do not recognize Taiwan nor Israeli current borders, yet we recognize their independence and their ''de facto'' territories in out articles. ''De jure'', there's no Taiwan, and Israel is still at war with Iraq since 1947. ''De jure'', the ] violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union. Do we care? Misplaced Pages focuses on facts, the ''de facto'' state of the world, not bound by temporary laws made by temporary entities which often don't even recognize each other: according to Bhutan, ''de jure'' there's no Croatia; according to Greece, there's no Northern Cyprus; according to Serbia, there's no Kosovo; according to the UN, there's no Taiwan... should we follow them? Of course not. You're free to be pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian, as long as you stick to facts. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:My only horse in this race is that Misplaced Pages should be consistent, at least at the level of any given artifact (such as a map), of showing either de jure borders, de facto borders or no borders at all. It is non-neutral to pick and choose de facto for thee, de jure for me. ] (]) 14:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I think the same editor is now editing under IP ]. Same modus operandi and with a soft spot for Air Supply songs. ] (]) 15:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::{{re|Simonm223}} Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their ''de facto'' state. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Have there been attempts to communicate with the IP via their user talk page and/or the article talk pages? This is the first step. If this has been done, can someone provides some diffs please?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 15:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Taiwan is de facto independent and de jure non-independent so I think you may have the terms backward there. However this speaks to my point - the important thing, from a neutrality position, is to stick to a consistent method of parsing these factual questions. Because, in a lot of these cases, it's not a matter of "facts over anything" but is rather making a positive decision which set of facts to prefer. It is a ''fact'' that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine. It is also a ''fact'' that Crimea is not presently being administered by Ukraine and is thus de facto not part of that country. If we have a map that chooses to prefer the de jure condition of Crimea as part of Ukraine and then to use the de facto boundary between China and Taiwan this is now non-neutral. It's Misplaced Pages failing to set a consistent standard and instead going based on vibes. | |||
:::Standards must be consistent. Ideally these standards should be consistent across the project and documented in an MOS. Failing that these standards should be consistent within any given article. Failing that these standards absolutely must be consistent in an indivisible artifact such as a map. | |||
:::As a corollary it is ''in favour of Misplaced Pages's neutrality goals'' to prefer a consistent representation of borders, whether that is de facto, de jure or to not show national borders at all (which remains an option). Now I will note that I didn't see much in the way of talk page discussion or of edit summaries from @] - which I pointed out as somewhere they could improve in my original comment - but if Cherkash is, in fact, motivated by wanting a consistent standard for depicting national boundaries on a map then @] has seriously failed to ] by depicting said forwarding of neutrality goals as if it were a hate-motivated attack on Ukraine. ] (]) 15:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::{{re|Simonm223}} I '''don't''' {{tq|have the terms backward there}}. I literally stated that {{tq|''De jure'', there's no Taiwan}}, and also what I meant for {{tq|facts, the ''de facto'' state of the world}}. Please, work on your reading and comprehension skills before making such accusations. Misplaced Pages requires ]. // and no, '''it is not''' {{tq|a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine}}, as ''de jure'' {{tq|the ] violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union}}, as I had already wrote, because ''de jure'' the ] didn't have the authority to mandate land exchanges among constituent states, power which they only had ''de facto''. Do better. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 03:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Taiwan is not de jure non-independent, de jure inherently requires picking a jure so to speak. It's a ruling from within a legal system, not a natural fact. That said, I agree picking maps with particular borders is not hateful conduct. If there's diffs of something else, it would be helpful to see them. ] (]) 15:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::According to that logic, any war crime or mass genocide could be justified by neutrality and ]. In theory, that does not align with ], since neutrality cannot allow for extremist views. Yet considering the replies here, I conclude that there is a consensus on Misplaced Pages that in the ] the positions of the victim and the aggressor are treated as equal or in favour of the former. ] (]) 17:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration ] (]) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::This is fast reaching ] territory. ] (]) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::We also have ]. ] (]) 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:There is no point in speculating what was legal or not in a totalitarian state, where laws are primarily instruments for maintaining control and suppressing opposition rather than upholding justice (see e.h. ). The soviet/Russian viewpoint on Crimea has the same zero value as the position of Third Reich on the state of Israel. It cannot be attributed to the same weight as of the democratic countries as Ukraine, Israel, the US etc. In the same way, you could justify the ], ], ] and ] by some ''de facto laws''. Soviet regime murdered tens of millions of people, and the current Russian legal system justifies that: not only ], ] and the other indigenous minorities in Crimea, but in oher regions, as well (as e.g. ]). That renders ''de facto maps'' a propaganda instrument of a malevolent state, which could not be accepted on any basis of neutrality. | |||
:Yet you equalise the positions of tyranical dictatorships and democratic countries while rejecting the UN resolutions. I see this as a violation of ] and consider not to be taken into discussion at all. ] (]) 07:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{tq|''de facto laws''}}? You're way too confused. {{langnf|la|de jure|by (some country's) law}} is the total opposite of {{langnf|la|de facto|by facts, in reality}}. That's the point. Nice list of stuff tho. Have fun. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 08:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I can't help but notice that the editor this complaint is concerned with, Cherkash, hasn't responded and hasn't edited on the project since January 12th and has barely edited in 2025 at all. What was the urgency in posting this complaint right now, ]? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:It is urgent as long as there is the ongoing war undermining the Ukrainian territorial integrity. If Misplaced Pages policies (],] etc) allow for undermining the legacy of Ukrainian state in favour of the aggressor, which such maps do under some ''consensus'' or ''de facto bodrers'' pretexts, then indeed it has no sense. | |||
*:If not, I shall propose to remove all of those maps in all relevant articles, treating them as tools to normalise the occupation of Crimea. ] (]) 07:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' I'm a bit concerned that {{U|Unas964}} has committed to continuing to edit in the Russia-Ukraine war CTOP after being informed of the ECR restriction. This includes , regarding ] "pro-Russian attacks." at this thread among other diffs that I will leave off as being, you know, quite visible already in this conversation. I am concerned that they have a ] mentality since their edit summary on my attempt to point them to ] was reverted with an edit summary of - very similar to the previous pro-Russian attacks" comment. People are free to clerk their own talk pages as they see fit but to characterize "The encyclopedia, in fact, tries to be neutral regarding global conflicts, cleaving to what reliable sources say about those conflicts but generally making sure to attribute any notable opinions on the conflict to the opinion-holder," as pro-Putin is a bit of an alarming response as is responding to concerns regarding canvassing by accusing the editor of pro-Russian attacks. I am worried that Unas964, as in their interaction with Cherkash that led to this thread, is incapable of assuming good faith and also seems unwilling to comply with ECR restrictions surrounding the war in question. ] (]) 13:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I can confirm that - yes - I consider multiplying warnings and threats to me without any try to search an alternative or copromise a pro-Russian stand. I see no support either, only bullying to preserve the status quo of the pro-Russian view on the matter. ] (]) 14:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
===Proposal - short duration block for Unas964=== | |||
== Long-term edit warring at ] == | |||
I am not going to ask for an indef here as I don't really want to bite the newbie but this has gone on for long enough. Unas964 is very aware that extended confirmed status is required to edit on the Russia / Ukraine conflict and yet continues not only to do so, but to do so in a way that is highly confrontational, completely fails to ] and that is replete with ] violations. They have a severe ] mentality and hasten to accuse anyone who attempts to ''help them understand'' concepts such as ] of being Putinists. I think it's high time that they are demonstrated that such behaviour will have a consequence. A tban is inappropriate because this editor already should not be editing in this CTOP. So that really only leaves us with a block to get their attention and to hopefully stem this disruptive behaviour. ] (]) 18:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Could some uninvolved admin please go have a look at the article on ] (a Korean religious leader). This article has been the subject of edit warring and both full and semi-protection for over a year (as can be seen from its revision history and talk page). Most recently — soon after the expiry of a three-month semi-protection — an IP editor critical of Jung, claiming (despite numerous apparently reliable sources) that the material in dispute violated ] and ]. In order to steer clear of any possible suggestions that I may be too involved with this article, or with past discussions about its content, to perform administrative functions related thereto, I would like to ask someone else to study the situation and take whatever action (if any) they may feel is appropriate. Thanks. — ]] <small>''(no relation to Jimbo)''</small> 07:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:'''Support''' I completely agree with everything Simonm223 mentions. I also want to add that Unas964 doesn't seem to be taking others' rebuttals into account. Instead, he just either brushes them off or completely disregards them, as can be seen in basically whole thread. Just scroll down and you'll see what I mean. ] (]) 19:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I reviewed the blanking and found the editor's reasoning to fall short of my expectations. Other admins are welcome to examine my judgement. ] ] 00:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::This situation is still in need of attention by '''''<u>uninvolved</u>''''' admins. Both Shii and I have edited the article and have participated in content discussions. — ]] <small>''(no relation to Jimbo)''</small> 21:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::The lack of response here is disappointing. The article has again been blanked for incoherent reasons, and I am prepared to revert it again but that will not resolve our problems. ] ] 18:50, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I've mentioned this issue on the talk pages for ] and ], in hopes of finding assistance there. — ]] <small>''(no relation to Jimbo)''</small> 19:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Hamzajanah posting vanity hoaxes and general NOTHERE behaviour == | |||
{{outdent}} This issue is turning into an edit war once again. The disputed material was reinstated four days ago, but now it has been removed yet again. One of the participants in the protracted discussion is once again insisting (see ]) that the article is heavily biased, that opposing material is being kept out, and that the resulting text constitutes a BLP violation. | |||
{{atop|1=] user is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Hamzajanah}} | |||
I'm really struggling with this new user. They have posted ] and ] both autobiographies and both contained multiple hoaxes. They are continually using Misplaced Pages as a ] and violating ] too. They are constantly boasting about their wealth, see for example. They claim to be a close associate of ], ] and ]. They are also . I have not seen one constructive edit and their is one of the worst I've seen and also warns us of "persistent sockpuppetry". This is bordering on ] already. Their ability to navigate Misplaced Pages suggests that they might have had previous accounts and might even be an LTA vandal but I can't think who it is. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The matter has previously been discussed at WP:BLPN (see ] from January 2013); '''''twice''''' at WP:RSN (see ] from January 2013, and also ] from April 2013]]); as well as much earlier discussions at WP:AN (]), WikiProject Korea (]), and the Japan-related topics notice board (]). | |||
:That filter is notoriously poor for detecting socks. I believe it was created with one sockmaster in mind, and yet based on how it functions (I'm not good at filters), comes up with many (mostly?) false positives.--] (]) 17:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. ] (]) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — ] ] 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I think that that's a fair outcome. Thanks all. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== User:Edward Myer == | |||
In an attempt to force the parties to engage in a real discussion and in-depth research, I have protected this article twice (most recently, a three-month semi-protection), and additional, stronger action may very likely be in order at this point; however, I have by now become so involved in the discussion (in addition to having made a few minor edits on the article) that I do not believe I should be the one to perform any additional admin actions here. I am trying not to be deaf to repeated claims that sources here are being misused, that valid reliable material is being suppressed, and that the article may in fact be violating WP:BLP and other key policies despite a superficial appearance that all is well — '''''but even if this is the case,''''' an endless edit war is not the proper way to deal with the matter. Once again, I am asking for uninvolved admins to take a look here and either help guide this article to a better state, or else to put teeth into an existing consensus which does in fact already satisfy our standards and should not be re-debated ''ad infinitum''. — ]] <small>''(no relation to Jimbo)''</small> 18:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*{{userlinks|Edward Myer}} | |||
== Problems at ] == | |||
{{u|Edward Myer}} was recently ] for two weeks, for creating a sock account to retaliate against myself and another AfC reviewer whose reviews they didn't like. (The socking was just the tip of the iceberg, there's much more to this as ] shows.) That block expired a few days ago, and since then they're back on the war footing, complaining and insinuating ], ] and ]; as well as posting similar stuff on the talk pages of ], ] and ]. I think this needs to stop; for one thing it's a time sink, and I for one really don't care for the belligerence. I don't think I should be the one to indef them, as I'm involved, but I'd be grateful if someone did. --] (]) 18:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I am not involved except insofar as I have declined ], but I saw their behaviour towards others and it made me consider whether I would make a review, especially to decline. A less resilient reviewer might well have avoided it. | |||
This is just to notify strange editing taking place in the article ]. For instance, (see ) an editor claims material should be removed because it is allegedly only mentioned by authors of one nationality. Regards.--] | ] 14:49, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I confess that I am waiting for the invective, and I support {{u|DoubleGrazing}}'s well measured request on that basis. | |||
:] --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 11:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:My view is for one final attempt in case they are educable. If they are not then 'final' should mean 'indefinite editing restrictions' 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 18:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I note, someone brought it up to them on their talk page first (see ]). ]'']]]'' 11:24, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::They have been ], . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at ]. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. ] ] ] 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes, and I am solely replying with regards to the subject of source removal (which is a problem of Conflict of Interest and vandalism). I believe my short comment is excused by the "vandalism clause" of the ] exceptions. However, if I am wrong, I apologize (there was no ill intention from my part) and would not mind if ''an administrator'' simply removes/marks-out my comment. Regards.--] | ] 16:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::To be fair, the sandbox may have a better shot at acceptance! I aways believe in extending my good faith as far as possible. I have seen some remarkable turnarounds by doing so. Obviously there comes a point, but I am not wholly sure we are there yet. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for taking the initiative in filing this ANI, DG; I was || this close to filing it myself. This user ]. - ] ] 22:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. ] (]) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::{{smalldiv|1=The above post is a duplicate of that posted at . ] ] 22:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
Seems like a clear case of ] and just wanting to push an article to mainspace and ] without even citing such. Sounds like a longer block may be necessary. ] ] 23:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*], this is serious. Have you read over this complaint? Can you let this grudge go and go on to do some productive editing and let the past be the past? If you continue on this path, I don't see you editing on Misplaced Pages for the long term. This is a moment where you can choose to change your approach and turn around you time here as an editor. But it is up to your willingness to do so. Does that sound like something you can and want to do? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
User MarshalN20 can't help doing it. , , , . --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 18:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:My field of expertise is Hip Hop. I do intend to do other articles on other subjects, and add relevant updates to current live articles. I'm here to be apart of the community and contribute to[REDACTED] in a specific field that I'm passionate about. I hold no grudge or ill will for no one. As I said to LiZ I had to get adjusted to how communication on[REDACTED] works. ] (]) 14:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Before any action is taken, I have made a substantial offer of assistance to Edward Myer on their user talk page. I am no-one special to make the offer, and I would like us to take a little time to see if it can be effective before reaching any conclusion. I have had some success before with helping editors who are in pain here. The offer is in the spirit of my early post in this thread. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 07:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
And again: . --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 09:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. ] (]) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::We have started to work together. May I suggest respectfully that any other matters be set aside for the duration? They can always be returned to if deemed necessary. My hope is that editors will not feel it to be necessary. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:My concern is the sock. Edward Myer, do you promise never to sock again? ] (]) 14:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Please revoke TPA from ] == | |||
:The discussion of this issue seems to have gotten drawn into Basalisk's talk page (see ). Basalisk is also my current TBAN supervisor. Regards.--] | ] 13:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive top|result={{done}}. ] 20:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
:Erm, those last three diffs are not TBAN violations. ] (]) 15:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* {{vandal|JEIT BRANDS}} | |||
::It is worse, Marshal's and your cry for help is ]. --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 09:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Talk page abuse, still spamming after block, please revoke TPA ] 18:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:The first one isn't a TBAN violation either. The diff under question is the second. My position is that it is justified by the vandalism clause (and Keysanger's blatant Conflict of Interest). Regards.--] | ] 21:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{ab}} | |||
::Wow, really? The one time I look at noticeboards, you're skirting your topic ban again? I'm curious to know how you think on Talk:War of the Pacific don't violate your topic ban that included ''all'' of Latin American history aside from the . ] <sup>]] ]]</sup> 03:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::As I wrote immediately above your statement, "The diff under question is the second. My position is that it is justified by the vandalism clause (and Keysanger's blatant Conflict of Interest)." | |||
:::My two (two-line) talk page comments were written after vandalism by Keysanger ( and ). My statements solely dealt with the vandalism and nothing more. | |||
:::Are you going to defend all of ''that'' and instead claim I am the one who did wrong? | |||
:::Anyhow, I am only waiting to hear Basalisk's opinion on the subject. If you want to help, go ahead, but don't let your view of me be the sole reason for your involvement. | |||
:::Regards.--] | ] 12:40, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Marshal. You're banned from the topic of Latin America history. Do you ''really'' want to go down this road again? I'm inclined to bring you to AE (yet again), and I think you know that I'd have legitimate reasoning—] says that vandalism exceptions apply to "obvious" cases, continuing: "The key word is "obvious", that is, cases in which no reasonable person could possibly disagree." I take that as meaning something like a child replacing the page with an obscene word. It's certainly not a license to enter into a content dispute. ]. ] <sup>]] ]]</sup> 08:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::In lieu of AE, I've pinged {{User|Sandstein}} and pointed him at this discussion. ] <sup>]] ]]</sup> 08:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Ping received, thanks, but contrary to popular belief, I am not in fact the living embodiment of the arbitration enforcement process :-) If you think that this requires enforcement action, I recommend that you file a report at ] where this can be examined in more detail by all administrators who process that page. That ensures something resembling due process, and a structured presentation of evidence to facilitate later review of any action. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::For what it's worth, at first glance, it seems to me that an AE report would be actionable because there appear to have been topic ban violations. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Continual ECP-Violating Posts in WP:RUSUKR area by User_talk:Valentinianus_I == | |||
<b>Comment</b> Somewhat involved here, I like Marshall, he is actually a good content editor and IMHO his topic ban is unjustified. I also tried to mediate at ] a couple of years ago. There is an unhappy history between ] and ] and a certain amount of baiting involved here with ] rubbing his nose in it about his topic ban. I would suggest this is dealt with by a simple warning to ] and a reminder that skirting a topic ban by going off-wiki is not acceptable. I would also suggest ] and ] are reminded of ] and ]. ANI should not be abused to settle old scores. ] <small>]</small> 10:26, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{atop|1=Blocked for a week. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
*{{userlinks|_Valentinianus I}} | |||
] is an editor with 80 edits as of the moment I'm writing this, the majority of edits made to ] topics. | |||
* As background, this editor was notified repeatedly by ] in August , and clarified . Melik again notified Valentinianus a month later in response to more edits that were not exempt , . | |||
:Per the recommendations of Wee, I have struck out my two sole comments in ] (see ). It's also important to point out that I have neither contacted ] through e-mail nor requested him to be my "proxy". Keysanger (or "KS") is making unfounded personal attacks against both Darkness Shines and myself, and is using this TBAN situation to hide his rampant vandalism in the ] article: | |||
:#, | |||
:#, | |||
:#), | |||
:Administrative action is required here not against me, but against this allegedly "experienced" user making unfounded serious accusations and vandalizing an article due to his ] with the topic. | |||
:Regards.--] | ] 14:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Valentinianus was blocked for a few weeks in October until ] unblocked them after giving benefit of the doubt. I'm only bringing this up because Rosguill, during the unblock reference notified Valentinianus that they would "like you to confirm that you've read and understand ] by identifying edits that you have made in violation of it, and how you will observe it going forward." | |||
:Now Keysanger is resorting ] (see , , and ). This needs to stop.--] | ] 18:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* ] notified Valentinianus on 1/18 that they were making inappropriate edits in violation of RUSUKR and was violating ] as well . Valentinianus replied that asking for a rename and calling for a subsequent rename vote were edit requests . | |||
== User:70.186.222.63 == | |||
''After'' that reply to Isabelle Belato (so that there is no question Valentinianus is aware of the latest warning), Valentinianus made five additional edits to ]. None were remotely along the line of constructive edit requests, the problematic ones being to argue that a source is a "Ukrainian shill site" , a project complaint about the infobox , and ] about the bad faith of the other editors on the talk page . | |||
* {{IPvandal|70.186.222.63}} – Adds persistently false info to articles (<span class="plainlinks">, , , , </span>). It is probably a static IP. I tried to ; no response. ] (]) 17:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
** <small>Oddly, Geolocate says it is a dynamic IP. --] ] 00:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC) </small> | |||
:::It could be a dynamic IP that is used for a longer period of time by the same customer (as long as the modem isn't disconnected)? ] (]) 19:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
While in isolation, no individual edit is egregious, this editor has been warned several times about the limits of RUSUKR, and adding ], ] , and ] violations in this area to the number of ] violations, I believe an indefinite topic ban from ] topics, broadly construed, is appropriate. | |||
== Continued edit-warring by ] == | |||
] (]) 19:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* I've just blocked them for a week instead. If they're ignoring the ECR restrictions, they'll just ignore a topic ban; that's because the reason they're ignoring the ECR restrictions is either ] or the fact that they don't care, and either would apply to a topic ban as well. Perhaps they'll get the message after this block, or perhaps they won't at which point we can look at further sanctions (which, let's face it, is likely to be an indef). ] 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
See ] (a few days ago). | |||
*Just noting that the prior block before this was a sockpuppetry block, which I lifted as I found their explanation of how they came to make their edits plausible. The further editing since the unblock as outlined in the block actioned by Black Kite seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
*Are we looking at the same editor, ]? Rosguill never unblocked this editor but Beeblebrox did back in December. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::There's a few comments here that seem muldly disconnected from exactly what happened previous to this, but probably not to the point whee it changes the math on this latest block. ] ] 02:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::It appears I was unclear. I was quoting Rosguill's reminder about RUSUKR in the conversation ''about'' a possible unblock . My point wasn't about the block itself, but that the editor received an additional warning about their edits in that area. I missed including that specific diff. ] (]) 10:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::: ] (]) 11:35, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== User talk page access, Wiseguy012 == | |||
Edit warring at {{pagelinks|Piz Gloria}} (and others) | |||
{{atop|result=I'm just going to close this. If Wiseguy012 returns and continues to rant or issues personal attacks, please return to ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
# | |||
Blocked user ] is using their talk page only for the purpose of continuing the rant that they got blocked for at ] and that they continued there as a sock account, {{noping|Friend0113}}, which is also now blocked. See . Revoke user talk page access? ] (]) 01:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
# | |||
:Hello, ], | |||
# | |||
:There is no ] account. Did you mean someone else? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
# | |||
:{{noping|Wiseguy012}}, lower g. ] (]) 01:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
# | |||
::Thanks CMD. They are just ranting to themselves, not attacking anyone. An admin might come by, review this complaint and remove TPA but I don't find it egregious enough to act. Typically blocked editors can act like this right after they discover they've been blocked but then they move on and leave Misplaced Pages or they start creating sockpuppets and that's a bigger problem than a talk page rant. Too soon to tell right now. But it doesn't seem ANI-worthy to me. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::The things some people decide to get mad about.... What they posted on the talk page was a copyright violation in its entirety, so that's gone, and I've warned them for that and let them know further disruption of any kind will cause them to lose talk page access. ] ] 01:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Sorry about the G, and thanks for the guidance about the talk page access. ] (]) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Still misuse of talk page for spamming. ] 07:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::That content was posted hours ago and was similar to what was reported here in the complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== Caste-based disruption == | |||
Also see ] They've had warnings for edit warring from three independent authors already – see also ]. | |||
{{u|HistorianAlferedo}} has engaged in contentious ] style editing in the ] related sanctioned topic area for quite sometime now. The user being repeatedly warned and clearly aware of these sanctions (evident from the removal of warning notices on their talk page) shows no signs of desisting. The editing pattern follows a faux concern of caste promotion by removing genuine well-sourced and known information all the while engaging in ] POV in multiple articles. That the editor isn't new is also evident from the fact that they can handedly cite obscure policies such as ] (of course incorrectly and disingenously). Lisiting some particuarly egregious edits: | |||
The crux of this is about categorization related to the James Bond films. They've stripped locations from the general film category, sometimes with (but frequently not) with the edit summary ''"locations aren't defined by being in a film"''. They have a point, but there are cases when there is a significant relationship worthy of categorization (see discussion on the ANI link). Likewise ''"Series characters are not independently notable"'' (from their attempt to delete yet another category at ]) seems to be implying that such minor topics ''can never be'' notable, rather than the more widely held view that notability is ] and is required to be (but potentially can be) demonstrated separately. | |||
*, , , : deliberate insertion of incorrect wikilinks and false removals to obscure that the empresses were Rajput princesses | |||
*: clearly falsifying an acronym (note the insertion of a dubious reference which nonetheless has nothing to do with the article subject) | |||
*, , , , : POV caste-based insertions | |||
*, : POV caste-based removals | |||
This only a fraction of the tendentious edits in the user's topic warrior style editing related to Indian history and social groups. Not to mention the insertion of multiple non-RS refs when it suits the preferred POV while claiming to remove them in other articles. Considering the history, ediitng restrictions should follow in the form of a ] t-ban or a general one till the user can show that they are not going to be in violation of enwiki policies anymore (all the more necessary considering the IP socking , ). Bringing this to ANI on advice of the editor themselves: . ] (]) 11:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
There is no support for their deletions from other editors (see the ANI link), just concern over their edit-warring and their attitude to other editors. The greatest support they've had so far was mine, and that was pretty sparing. They've made no real attempt to discuss these changes, not gained any support for them, and where reverted they're edit-warring to push their unique viewpoint. Mostly they reject discussion as not being "ON AN APPROPRIATE TALK PAGE", which seems to mean any location other than where other editors are already trying to discuss it. Their ANI response was basically stonewalling. I raised this Bond issue at ], but they've ignored that too. | |||
:], you MUST notify the editor that you have posted this complaint. Please do so. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{done}} ] (]) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Actually i was only editing and adding new information along with genuine citations. I had no motive for any sort of vandalism or anything else. Based on the knowledge about various topics of Indian history i was just trying to contribute in a positive way. Moreover some of the allegations by user Gotitbro are totally irrelevant, i’m not an indian but interested in the topics related to Indian history. New editors should be supported by the old ones and not demotivated with false allegations. Alright, if the old editors don’t want the new ones to contribute to[REDACTED] even in a good way then i’ll definitely even delete my account from wikipedia. Thank you ] (]) 08:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::], I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Okay @]. Please have a look at pages: ] and ] I added relevant information along with scholarly work sources but user:@] just reverted all the changes without even looking at the correct citations. That’s why i thought now i won’t edit and visit[REDACTED] as few users here just try to show off their ranks, there are good wikipedians and administrators too but a few of them are doing this with the new contributors. Thank you ] (]) 15:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== On-wiki hounding, off-wiki soliciting, and severe stalking by ] == | |||
They've also listed ] for deletion and prodded at least one individual entry from it, ]. Clearly an editor who just doesn't like James Bond, or categorization. A look over their entire editing history (it doesn't take long) shows the view that the way to build an encyclopedia is to delete it. | |||
I wanted to let go this and move on, but considering my uncertain future with {{u|SerChevalerie}}, I had to take this to ANI. | |||
I raised this at ], only to be told that this wasn't a breach and that I should raise it at ANI instead. I was also told that my changing the Bond-related categorization at ] to try and address the very same problem that Jerry is complaining of was itself edit-warring! ] (]) 01:08, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* ''Clearly an editor who just doesn't like James Bond, or categorization.'' I don't understand how you could have formulated an opinion on what I think about either James Bond or categorization, because every time I've asked you to engage in a conversation on any appropriate talk page, including my own or one of several articles, you have decided to ignore those repeated requests in favor of rushing off in search of an administrator to validate you. Had you bothered to initiate a direct conversation with me at any of the many, many places I suggested it, then perhaps you might have a better basis for an opinion. | |||
* I have tried in good faith to open dialogues with you about the specific pages in question and you have declined to engage. From this I could form an assumption that you are a troll who is interested in imposing your will on the project to the discounting of everyone around you, but I have refrained from doing so. | |||
* Had you engaged me in conversation on any of the many occasions in which I asked you to, including on the last change to Piz Gloria which you linked to above then maybe we could have made some progress on this. No, instead you want to pick a fight. | |||
* An appropriate talk page to discuss what categories Piz Gloria should go in would be ]. Have you tried to engage in that conversation there? No, you have not. You did initiate a discussion on ] but you did not notify me that you had begin such a discussion and since I do not monitor your activity with the closeness that you seem to monitor mine I had no idea it was occuring. I will gladly reply to you there. | |||
* Consensus has not demonstrably changed against categorizing real-world places based on their appearance in a James Bond film. This consensus has been in place for years. Links to the establishment of that consensus have been posted repeatedly in various venues. ] is not an appropriate place to check whether consensus on the subject has changed. | |||
* None of the proposals or nominations for deletion that I have made fall outside the established and accepted guidelines for such actions and the fact that the majority of them have been accepted by the Misplaced Pages community is proof of that. Contrary to your opinion of my Misplaced Pages philosophy. I believe that it is best served and grown by creating and maintaining articles and categories that are in line with relevant policies and guidelines. No idea what your philosophy on project-building is. ] (]) 01:54, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**I've locked ] and ] for one week.--] (]) 01:34, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
To give a little background of the editing behavioural problems with the above mentioned editor, it started around late June 2024 when I made this edit . This was followed by his immediate reverts and significant edits . I had no problem with this, as this article was something wherein a third party editor had requested to expand it in a local Misplaced Pages WhatsApp group we were part of. | |||
== Loomspicker again == | |||
*I moved this from AN. ] ] 01:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I've raised this issue here before, but the user in question oh-so-conveniently went inactive for a few days while the thread was open. To sum up, ] is a single-purpose account devoted to pretending Islamophobia doesn't exist by scrubbing the word from Misplaced Pages, and in the service of this crusade, has engaged in a number of prohibited behaviors. In addition to the evidence detailed ], which includes the introduction of factual inaccuracy, blanking sourced material, and adding scare quotes, he has more recently continued to misrepresent sources ( ), remove sourced material (), delink pages in an apparent attempt to orphan them so they can be deleted ( ), and otherwise edit in a disruptive and POV manner. Please deal with this even if the user goes inactive in order to avoid scrutiny. –] (] ⋅ ]) 00:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Should I take this to ANI instead? Either way, I don't want this to be archived without being addressed simply because the user stopped editing right when the thread opened. That's what happened last time, and obviously he simply resumed the disruptive behavior as soon as it seemed like no one was looking anymore. –] (] ⋅ ]) 16:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::More of an ANI thing IMO, but since it's here, I'll reply here. (Nowadays apparently you're supposed to use some accursed ''template'' to move a thread to ANI, and I can't away with it.) It would be easier to take stock of the situation if you provided a link to where you raised the issue before, Roscelese. If they repeatedly go inactive when they're under scrutiny, and not at other times, then that's significant, but I'd like to see for myself. ] | ] 15:35, 19 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
:::...It's already linked in my first post? But here is the link again. ] –] (] ⋅ ]) 15:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
By the way, yes, this sort of thing should be over at ], since it's an "incident", so to speak, regarding another user. As far as I (non-admin) know, ] is more for general announcements and requests, while ] deals more with user behavior. ]'']]]'' 03:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support block or topic ban rom Islam''' for Loomspicker. I have been going through this editors contributions and he is clearly anti-Muslim, goes around articles related to Muslims and puts derogotary information about them as well as other unsavoury edits. ] ] 15:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' - I share Roscelese's and Pass a Method's concerns, which I also had after seeing which removed five sources. The fact that these same types of edits are occurring across multiple articles is troubling. I'm not sure if a block is required, but a topic ban should definitely be put on the table for discussion.- ]] 19:08, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::That edit was about what should be included in the article, not necessarily vandalism. Our on the issue clearly shows that. ] (]) 00:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I never said it was vandalism, only that it seems to be part of a pattern of erasing the concept of Islamaphobia from Misplaced Pages by Loomspicker. - ]] 00:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Both me and SerChevalerie were part of this WhatsApp group of Wikipedians from ]. Having known each other online for over two years, and we shared the same native state. The problems arrived when he got back active on Misplaced Pages after a break of roughly 4 years and went on serious stalking my edits, the page I contributed, but mainly the pages that I created. As am In ] and I love creating articles, but this was something he went overly critical on. | |||
*'''Very weak support''' based on review of edits over the past few days. Some seem to be done with the agenda of removing any sense of "racism" from Islamophobia pages and to cast Islam in a bad light. But based on the evidence presented by Roscelese, the user does seem to have an agenda and is ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 00:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
From June to August 2024, most of the edits SerChevalerie made were pertaining to the articles that I significantly worked on or created. During this, I was much subject to ] on major of the articles I created such as ], you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just ], arguing by citing essays like ] instead of finding a resolution or just ]. It was until I finally took the decision to take it to ] we reached a consensus after several days of discussion. | |||
*'''Comment''' - I don't think Loomspicker was explicitly notified of this discussion on their talk page, so I have done so. I would like to hear from them before deciding whether or not to support a topic ban. - ]] 01:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Over the course of some 30 articles that I created from June to August 2024, SerChevalerie has made edits which often times were seen as annoying and major stalking behaviour. He also likes to stay at the "top of the order" constantly as you can on articles such as ] as per his latest "copyedit". During this period of two months almost entirely of his edits he has made were only pertaining to my articles. | |||
===Topic ban?=== | |||
I propose a topic ban for Loomspicker from all Islam-related articles.] ] 22:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support'''; user's bias is preventing him from editing productively, on balance. –] (] ⋅ ]) 20:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' I understand the concern of this user having an agenda, and a topic ban is not an extreme solution. One thing I'd want to hear from the user before making a call either way is what their assessment of Misplaced Pages's relevant rules and norms regarding his/her editing are. Has the user commented anywhere on the accusation that s/he is advocating with a specific agenda in mind (that is, as opposed to building an encyclopedia)? It is possible to have opinionated editors still make valuable edits to issues they care about—as long as they understand how Misplaced Pages is supposed to be edited. --] ] 00:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*This user seems to ''only'' vandalize articles about ] and makes no constructive edits, so it would seem that a general block would be better than a topic ban if this user continues to engage in this sort of behavior.--] (]) 11:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
When I had nominated his article ] for SD, he then tried to solicit and I felt harrassed after he took his arguments to ]. Even after saying I don't want to discus this off-wiki he forced it upon me by confronting me in a group of 200-250 Wikipedians and having his arguments posted there. This is the same whatsapp group we were part of. And I have the relevant evidence with me. | |||
===Loomspicker=== | |||
Of the edits linked above, the material was removed as the sources did not back up the claims, in accordance with ]. And they still haven't been provided. Which policies do my edits not comply with? "Pass a Method" and "Roscelese" respond to my edits with reverts, reports and attacks, instead of wishing to discuss the content itself. For example, Pass reverted my edit on ] which has an on-going discussion, yet doesn't contribute to the discussion. Roscelese reverted me three times on ] yet ignores the message I left on their talk page. I did think maybe it was my approach was wrong, but the block logs suggest this is how they normally respond to edits they disagree with. I did ask for sources or a compromise, but I don't hold out much hope of getting either.--] (]) 20:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Needless to say, this claim - that removing sourced material, adding claims that are verifiably false, otherwise misrepresenting sources, adding scare-quotes, etc. is simply removing unsourced material - is unconvincing. –] (] ⋅ ]) 00:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
SerChevalerie also has undisclosed COI with articles such creating and editing his grandfather's article significantly ] and a suspected COI paid editing on article like ]. I have relevant evidence to support this claim. You can also check the latter's talk page where he claims that he "recreated" entirely on the article after it had some issues when it was created, see | |||
== User Locke Cole and uncooperative vandalism/filibustering == | |||
He also seems to want a Misplaced Pages article on himself by using his connections and other Wikipedians to help him feature on the news (or possibly paid news) see here {{redacted}}. I find this featured article on him rather suspicious as it was published when SerChevalerie barely returned back to editing after 4 years. | |||
Over at '']'', a debate ensued in regards to whether or not sources stating ] would return. Myself and users ], ] and ] ruled in favour of not, making it 4-1, thus concluding the result. ] absolutely ''refuses'' to accept and has been ] endlessly. I added a comment at the top of the discussion stating we were finished with the discussion, which he persistently removed, so we may as well throw ] violation in here too. i believe i did too, but holy hell, i left many comments stating "dont remove other's comments" which he did not acknowledge, even though he knows he isn't allowed to remove others comments. I gave him a warning on his talk, but he simply ignored it and deleted it. His behaviour is uncooperative, childish and plain old obnoxious. How do we deal with this? ] 03:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:You've chosen to ignore, at every turn, site policy regarding the usage of sources and original research. You also choose to ignore editors that support the addition of Jeremy Renner to the cast (your "vote count", which BTW, ], is slightly off, there are at least four editors at the talk page that ''support'' adding it to the page, not counting the six editors your group have repeatedly reverted over the past three months). Also, please read ], you do not get to unilaterally close a discussion you yourself are involved in. You have no right to do that, and it's uncivil (as is reverting me on my own talk page, which you did today). I seriously can't believe something this trivial is causing this much grief. It's a wiki, if somehow it ends up being wrong, you can always change it later. —] • ] • ] 04:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Quite a few of those six editors didnt engage in the two discussions. And the people against having Renner included were: me, Favre, Mainstream, TriiipleThreat, Tenebrae, Betty Logan. In favour: you, TreCoolGuy, Shii (who has since not engaged further). It then grew into you filibustering when we had no real interest in further discussing as it seemed clear why we weren't adding him: the sources are speculative, and we do not post speculation. We do not. And saying that sources are allowed to contain original research is wrong as they would soon be corrected. You can't make things up. ] 15:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm not making things up. You're not understanding site policy. Of course our sources can contain original research, that's what they're for. ] says we, editors, may not create our own research and present it in articles, we must have sources who have done their own research, to back up the statements we make in articles. As to the !vote count, it's the persistence of ignoring sources that leads to that skewed result. If you have any questions about our policies and guidelines, please, let me help you. —] • ] • ] 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::So you've clearly broken 3RR on the talk page removing others comments. <s>Is there any reason you shouldn't be blocked?</s> ] (]) 04:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Because I was reverting disruption? —] • ] • ] 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Sorry, but I don't think your reverts were covered under any of the exemptions to 3RR. ] (]) 18:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I've just blocked Locke Cole for 24 hours for violating the three revert rule on ]. ] (]) 05:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I've the editor's peculiar unblock request. | |||
:::Looking at this from the outside, I do have to agree that Rusted Autoparts was a bit quick to (attempt to) shut down discussion on the talk page - I don't think that was the wisest move. Generally, you want to have a few days (after all, we're not in a rush) for ample discussion, and you want to involve an unbiased mediator (e.g. an admin) if things get heated. Given that none of this was done, I don't blame Locke Cole for getting frustrated. ] 11:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::That's the thing, we did. From Oct 4-8 we discussed whether or not to add Renner. Result: don't add. Cole decided he didn't like the result and on the 19th added Renner to the article anyway. We removed him and he decided to open another discussion, with the consensus of dont add still intact. He didnt take that too well and began forcing all of us to continue discussing when we were clearly finished. ] 13:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::I'd say the early October discussion was charitably no consensus. There was some headway made regarding different ways to state it, so as not to include him in the cast section, but edits I made after the protection expired were promptly reverted completely, instead of edited to reach something we could possibly compromise on. As to the talk page discussion, I was waiting for something more meaningful than "I don't like it", and perhaps for some discussion about policy regarding sources, but it never occurred. So of course I had to re-start the discussion after the reverts on the main page. —] • ] • ] 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, I think it was inappropriate for Rusted AutoParts to close the discussion like that, and I suppose a warning is in order for that. I think Locke Cole had other options for dealing with that though (he could have asked an admin to step in, or just written "this discussion is not closed"), which is why I blocked. ] (]) 14:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Personally, I find it a little unequal that Locke gets a block, and Rust<s>y</s>''ed'' gets off scot-free. Closing that discussion was wholly inappropriate, and trying to force it closed was even worse. However, because of the "bright line", one party gets slapped, even though they were actually doing the right thing. Rust<s>y</s>''ed'' should not be closing any discussions - especially if they think that discussions are actually ''votes'', and not ''discussions based on policy''. Either block'em both for the same length of time, or unblock Locke for time-served - consider that the block did its job and protected further edit-warring. Make sure that discussion is reopened and stays reopened until someone with a clue can evaluate consensus after a couple of weeks <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 14:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I'd prefer "Rusted", thank you, not "Rusty" as if you're trying to play me off as some kid. And this whole statement is coming off as an attack against me rather than addressing the conduct Locke engaged in. "Someone with a clue"? How dare you. Do you have anything to add to the topic at hand, or would you prefer continuing attacking me? None of it changes the conduct Cole used in the thread. From filibustering to growing irrational. ] 15:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: What "filibustering"? You improperly closed a discussion. Period. By your own comments in this thread, you have no business closing ''any'' threads, anywhere. Locke has been blocked for his edit-warring, and now it's time to further review ''your'' inappropriate actions - which you knew would happen when you filed this report. Your poor behaviour led to someone else's poor behaviour ... let's consider that now. Could you please address the issues I and others raised about ''you'' rather than make some bizarre claims about ] <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 15:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Im sorry, it seems you haven't actually read the discussion and assuming I made Locke become irrational. I altered the closed discussion sentence. As for attacks, you use my name in a degrading manner by calling me "Rusty" and then implied I'm stupid by suggesting "someone with a clue" come. I'll say it again: I'm not the one being reported here. Locke was clearly filibustering and no one's actions should ever drive an editor to lose control like he did. Now stay on topic. I conceded my end of what went down was distasteful and like I said I removed the closed discussion sentence and simply stated it was a continuation of a prior discussion. Locke refused to understand why we weren't adding Renner, so he tried to force his view and filibustered. ] 15:40, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::As a participant in the discussion, I agree RAP should not have closed the discussion himself. However, Locke has ], which has been rejected by overwhelming majority of the opinions (more than four RAP mentioned). I know it's not a vote but at some point we need to move on, editors cannot spend all their time retorting the same argument to someone who refuses to get the point.--] (]) 15:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::: Thanks for your rational review and response, TT - I concur with many of the elements you point out. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 16:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Ok, I've unblocked LC early per preventative, not punitive. ] (]) 15:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
When I had to quit Misplaced Pages for over 4 months due to my poor mental health because of him, he too wasn't very active on Misplaced Pages as he noticed I wasn't active anymore. You can check his edit history around the months of October and November this made me realise that SerChevalerie might have ] relating to my presence on Misplaced Pages itself. When I returned back to editing in early January this year, I made my first edit on the article ]. The next day he tries to repeat the same behaviour of stalking me and "staying on top" of the page. See . Please note that he didn't have any editing history on this page untill I edited it. | |||
Would it be possible to get an uninvolved admin to remove or move Rusted AutoParts "closure" comment at the top of the section? Since my removals are apparently bad. —] • ] • ] 10:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:<s>I've added a note to that effect under his comment per your request. ] (]) 18:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC)</s> | |||
::Actually as he has changed his comment I don't think any more action is needed. ] (]) 18:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I still feel constantly watched by this editor everytime I am on Misplaced Pages. I want to propose to the community for a block on SerChevalerie or having placed ] on articles that I create so that he stops this behaviour. He also knows my real name and I don't want to get ] or ] by him as we both are from ], India. I'm afraid he might just get my residence address and does any harm. I just want to get rid of this issue and move on. ]<sup>2003</sup>(]) 11:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== request BLP edit summary blanking == | |||
:I haven't looked at everything, and especially not the off-wiki claims, but I get the impression the behavior issues may not be as one-sided as presented. | |||
could someone blank this edit summary https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AAlex_Jones&diff=578074754&oldid=577991747] containing commentary about a living person? thanks! see {{user|Collect}}'s analysis of the "sources" -- ] 12:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:{{Blockquote|"During this, I was much subject to ] on major of the articles I created such as ], you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had {{Diff|Tsumyoki|1240530309}} as SerChevalerie would just ], arguing by citing essays like ] instead of finding a resolution or just ]."}} | |||
:{{Done}} <small>]</small> 17:01, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:In this talk page you're both volleying policy pages, essays, and vague accusations at each other, but the concerns SerChevalerie raised about this article were not unfounded. It starts from something reasonable, and you both escalate at lightning speed. | |||
Thanks, but they have done it again -- ] 18:11, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:If I look at your interactions, I'm not sure I see the story of one-sided ]. You both edit similar pages and regularly get into arguments. | |||
:If necessary, follow the steps at ]. --] ] 00:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I don't see you trying to disengage with this user either, you've served him three different level 1 warning templates, now you're escalating to ANI with more inflammatory statements. If you're seriously worried about physical harm, please disregard this and rush to ], but at least in the diffs you've linked, I don't see much credible threat of physical harm. ] (]) 14:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:On-wiki evidence here, off-wiki evidence arbcom. Too long to read and wall of text. ] 08:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== User:TTYDDoopliss and gender-related edits == | |||
== Single Purpose Account: Delphenich == | |||
{{atop|result=Indeffed by Canterbury Tail ] ] 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<br>I just wanted to add that TTYDDoopliss was found to be the sockpuppet of an editor many of us became familiar with last spring on ANI and the Teahouse. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
* {{userlinks|TTYDDoopliss}} | |||
Summary: Is there a non-male administrator willing to provide some guidance to this editor, particularly in edits related to gender? | |||
{{Userlinks|Delphenich}} is a ] who only adds link to books they have authors and translations that they have done. None of their books or translations are hosted at ] or are academically peer reviewed. While this person most likely is working to improve the encyclopedia, all of their additions are ]. See list of contributions . Multiple users, including myself, have reverted their edits. Admission that the . I have also notified them of their COI issues. . -- ]]. 17:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Not clear that admins are required ''yet''. The user's last edit was to explain their previous editing. My personal advice is to let the discussion play out, and if the answers you receive are problematic, to come back to ANI. --] ] 00:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
The user in question is relatively new. (Yes, an early edit stated she had a previous account, but she used it for roughly one day in December 2024 before {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Teahouse|prev|1265829279|losing her password}}, and she had no warnings at all on the account, so abuse of multiple accounts does not apply here. | |||
== Bitcoin and Reddit-warring == | |||
With her new account, she quickly {{Diff|Misplaced Pages:Teahouse|prev|1265829279|received a message alerting her that gender is a contentious topic|diffonly=yes}}, so she is CTOPS/aware of gender issues. After which, she has made edits including: | |||
The ] article has been the subject of two discussions on Reddit recently that are attracting a lot of attention and activity. Some admin eyes are needed on an ongoing edit war over language in the lead. I have fairly strong views on the topic so I'm not going to get involved. --] ] 18:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Here's are the , for reference. ] (]) 18:40, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* This sequence of edits to ]: | |||
So far it's only really me and ] clashing somewhat at the moment, and I don't believe Fleetham is from/affiliated with the current Reddit activity. I however, am. I am editing for neutrality only. We're currently discussing our changes in a civilised manner, so I don't think there is any cause for concern at this time. ] (]) 18:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
** {{Diff|List of media notable for being in development hell|prev|1270570240|Edit summary: ''men don’t be utterly deprived and ruin women’s lives by being a sex pest challenge (don’t revert if you’re a man, you’re disgusting and I want nothing to do with you guys)''|diffonly=yes}} | |||
:Considering what the Reddit community is like, I think it would probably be best to protect this article for the moment.--] (]) 22:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
** {{Diff|List of media notable for being in development hell|prev|1270571663|Edit summary: ''Undid revision 1270571008 by C.Fred (talk) how many more women are going to be hurt by continuing to let men like this in the game industry''|diffonly=yes}} | |||
::I don't think our "community" has any room to state such a thing. ] (]) 02:04, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* {{Diff|Dawn M. Bennett|prev|1270573048|To Dawn M. Bennett|diffonly=yes}}, removing an image with the edit summary ''she has cleavage, which means men will want to screw her if they see the image'' | |||
::This is the on AN/I in the past month that you've unilaterally decided that editors who are active on web sites that you seem to dislike don't deserve ]. These statements go against the spirit of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 21:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* {{Diff|User talk:TTYDDoopliss|prev|1270578539|To her own user talk|diffonly=yes}}, removing a thread that included warnings with the edit summary ''please leave me alone, im trying to lessen my suffering as a woman in a male-dominated world'' | |||
I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I concede her point that, generally speaking, men in the world have done and continue to do pretty crappy things to women. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to ], and IMO, some of her edits are even going counter to the viewpoint she holds. I also know that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social platform, and I worry that her behaviour, unchecked, will result in her crossing a line that gets her blocked, where an admin, regardless of gender, has to stop the disruption. | |||
== ] and ] == | |||
I'd like somebody to reach out to her to give her some advice before it gets to that point, and—while I generally think that any editor can do any job on Misplaced Pages regardless of gender—I think this a situation where a non-male or cisfemale administrator should be the one to make the contact. —''']''' (]) 15:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Article is BLP that had some out of date information. Brand new ] account ] is making updates, but everything is uncited and completely failing ]. As these edits are making accusations about others actions they are also in violation of ] A few of the more egregious diffs . I have been trying to fix the article up with the more recent info, and include what I can source, but I am now at ] (although I would argue that I am falling into the BLP exception) for removing the npov versions. I think its pretty obvious that the editor is either Januzzo or someone working on his behalf which raises ] issues, but I could use some help keeping the article in compliance with ] and ] as well as maybe a more stern warning. User warned with an additional unsourced (and likely ] violating edit ] ] (]) 21:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I was going to suggest that if there's any founded concerns a trans woman would get bitten in this hypothetical interaction then we should probably just ] right now. However then I went and looked at the diffs in question and the discussion that was on the user's talk page and I have to ask: has anyone considered this might all be a troll? ] (]) 15:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:The user name itself is...questionable, too. (] #72 at least, implied ] even if you take it a certain way...) - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::perhaps my useful non-gender related edits might tip you off to the fact that im not a troll? here’s something non-gender related articles i fixed up: ], ], ] ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Let's slow the truck down here; regardless of whether they are getting paid or not, it's doubtful that they know Misplaced Pages's rules. You just dropped a partly automated message with links to ''five'' different policies. Can we assume that they've read them all? Nope. Let's try explaining the issues to them in plain text. If that doesn't work, by all means go ahead and block. ] <sup>]] ]]</sup> 03:33, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I think this is a straightforward ] or ] block. Misplaced Pages quite a number of women editors and they seem to be fine and don't seem to experience overt persecution. I just don't see how this user can reasonably be expected to collaborate with others, a core requirement of Misplaced Pages editing, if they're just going to accuse everyone else of being misogynists. ] (]) 16:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them ''removing'' mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. ] (]) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Yeah, ] in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. ] (]) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::@] Hrm. So is the inference that you ''willingly and knowingly'' made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —''']''' (]) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Honestly I don't think you're in any sort of distress at all. As I think, rather, that you are trolling Misplaced Pages and ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 18:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*{{tq|benefit of the doubt}}{{snd}}Pardon me, but what doubt could there possibly be? ]] 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Surprised they weren't blocked after the vast majority of en.wiki contributors "nerdy men". ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 16:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::that’s… not an insult? just an observation ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL ] (]) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::“Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I go to the talk pages of articles, no one ever responds. I just operate over ], it’s easier and takes less time. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:i mean you requested “guidance”, everyone else is suggesting indef which is ''not'' what i had in mind when you left this here. id gladly take a gensex topic ban over never being able to edit ever again. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I'm suspecting trolling, here. ] (]) 17:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for ] violations. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information ''about the exploitation caused by the games industry'' - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make ''women working in the games industry literally less visible,'' seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::{{tq|I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body}} Be that as it may, leave that attitude at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay.]] 18:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks.]] 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::clearly you’ve never had a ], or ]. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::You've already been told by {{U|Liz}}, so it's up to you now. Either acknowledge and take on the board the advice you have been given, or yes, you will likely be blocked.]] 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::Acknowledge that your past actions were wrong and disruptive, you promise to never do them again, and from here on contribute constructively. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*], I'll cut to the chase rather than participating in a debate over what your motivation is for some of your editing. I'm a female administrator and you've been brought to ANI. While this is sometimes done for frivolous reasons, for the most part, unless vandalism is occurring, complaints are brought here to resolve in order that harsher sanctions won't be necessary. It's an attempt to address problems before a block becomes necessary. There is a view that your glib messages asserting a POV regarding sexism or editors on this project are inappropriate and borderline unacceptable. Can you cease with the personal commentary here? Because if you can not, there will not be a third chance, my Misplaced Pages experience tells me that a block from editing of some duration will be coming your way. So, the choice is up to you at this point. Act professionally and not like Misplaced Pages is some kind of discussion forum, or have your editing privileges removed. | |||
:And to reinforce this in case it needs to be emphasized, this is not about sexism or gender really, it's about NPOV and disruptive editing. You'd be getting a similar message if you were making side comments about politics, ethnicity, race or any other subjects that cross over into contentious subject areas. These are designated areas where sloppy editing and off-the-cuff comments are sanctioned if the editor can't control her/himself. From a nerdy female editor, <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::is there any other way I can make Misplaced Pages a better place for women? How about a policy like ] but for women? ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I'm looking at edit. A perfectly normal picture of a woman was removed with a weird and offensively sexualised edit summary. I can't begin to stress how perfectly normal that picture is. There are two possibilities here. One is that this is anti-feminist trolling under a false flag but the other is that TTYDDoopliss is exactly what she claims to be and was genuinely triggered by a perfectly ordinary picture of a woman at an awards ceremony. If the later then she is clearly in no state to be able to edit Misplaced Pages at this time. Pictures like that turn up all over Misplaced Pages. If we have stronger evidence of deliberate trolling elsewhere then obviously that's an indef (of both the old and new accounts) but if that edit was made in good faith then I think a temporary block would be best for all concerned. It would give TTYDDoopliss an opportunity to come back later if she is well enough, and if she wants to, of course. --] (]) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::There's which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. ] (]) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::What we would expect is to find ] compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in ] in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. ] (]) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::And, exacerbating this, you were already engaged here with people raising concerns about your widespread disruptive editing, which had been explained to you, before you made this edit. Which makes it quite deliberated disruption. ] (]) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::OK. Now I'm looking at edit and that does seem a lot more like trolling. The edit summary sounds like an anti-feminist parody of a feminist and the actual edit is to remove coverage of an alleged sex offender. Given that sexual misconduct is a serious issue in the video games industry it seems implausible that even the most misguided feminist would try to cover it up. I know that mental illness can express itself in many ways but... I just don't buy it. ] (]) 19:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::{{tq|I removed it because it made me upset.}} What? Have you read ] and ]? ]<sup>]</sup> 19:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just ], a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::fine ill shut up now ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::: also looks like parody. ] (]) 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the ''male'' protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. ] (]) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::No one said or implied any such thing. ] (]) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Women don't exist to fulfill men's needs. That is very true. However desire for a partner can certainly be part of a character's motivation. ] (]) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::: actually takes a ] cited statement and rewrites it to say something that the RS did not say not once but twice. In addition, there is the claim that erasing sexual orientation as a possible subject of obsessive and compulsive ideation is somehow reducing heteronormative bias. Which is somewhat contrary to what I would expect from a sincere feminist editor. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::: is somewhat better than average. At least the source says, "Insofar as they affect women, bromances, when taken in conjunction with monogamous heterosexual relationships, decrease the burden on women to provide all the care work for their partners." | |||
:::::::However "all the care work" is paraphrased by Doopliss to "The increasing tolerance of bromances relives pressure on women to be emotionally intimate with men," which is... not... the same thing. But at least I can look at the source, look at the statement and draw a line between them, however tenuous. ] (]) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Also, this too supports my "troll" hypothesis since the very next paragraph of the Chen source begins "Bromances reinforce gender hierarchy, bolster marriage as the goveming, archetypal intimate relationship, and normalize homophobia." So we have an article crtical of bromance being used to praise it for getting men out of womens' hair. ] (]) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I think it's clear some form of block is necessary now. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Because you have disrupted multiple topics. ] (]) 19:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::And that's it. That's the proof that we are being played. An inexperienced user would not be advocating for a topic ban. An inexperienced user would not even know what a topic ban was. This is probably a Gamergate dead-ender yanking our chains. ] (]) 19:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I'd suggest a checkuser but what's the point? They are going to get blocked anyway. ] (]) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I know what a topic ban is because I’ve lurked on pages like AN/I before. I’ve been browsing back-end Misplaced Pages pages for years. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::what can I do to make you guys believe me? ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::That ship has sailed. ] (]) 19:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I've gone ahead and blocked them. It's clear we're being trolled. They're not only offensively characterising men, they're offensively characterising women and people with mental illnesses. Thay also can't keep their own lies and beliefs straight. We're done here. ] ] 20:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
=== Proposal: Indefinite block === | |||
For disruptive editing and ]. I propose that TTYDDoopliss be indefintely blocked. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' Per nom. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support'''. Even if they are what they claim to be there is nothing for them here. --] (]) 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support'''. In addition, ] and ]. - ] ] 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' For the reasons and multitudinous diffs cited above I believe this whole dog and pony show is a troll. ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' per above. I don't mean to be rude, but Wikipedians are a diverse bunch, and some of us are bound to be male. If you can't work collaboratively, you can't work at all. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' because as I said before, whether this user has legitimate intentions behind these edits or is just ], their disruptive editing and refusal to acknowledge their actions shows me that they are ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' per nom ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' Per Nom. The way she characterizes certain mental illnesses is untrue and frankly beyond offensive. ] (]) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' - I believe we're being trolled. ] (]) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per nomination - I had initial sympathy but it's just trolling. <span style="background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;">''']''' <small>]</small></span> 20:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per nom. Good block by CT.]] 20:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support:''' TTYDDoopliss asked, several times over, what she could do to avoid a general block. Over and over again, she refused to respond in the one way that would have helped her: by saying that she'd clean up her act and stop dumping her own issues onto this site. Even if we weren't being trolled, any time an ] person gets cbanned, an angel gets its wings. ] 21:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== ]: ] and ] behaviour. == | |||
== Avengednightmario == | |||
Toa Nidhiki05 has been guarding the hell out of the ]. They instantly revert any change against the status quo that they don't like, citing a need for consensus, then don't actually engage with discussions around those edits except to call for moratoriums on even talking about them while spewing bad faith assumptions, or trying to wikilawyer away disagreements. I'm not a long term editor at ] and, frankly, don't want to be, but in the limited number of days I've been editing on this it's clearly an issue. | |||
Lately, {{vandal|Avengednightmario}} has been vandalizing ] and ] by changing it to state that Paul is in favor of abortion exceptions for rape and incest. I call this vandalism because it's and he's been warned repeatedly. Given that this is a ] for a prominent politician, I see this as a very serious issue. | |||
Moreover, it's a symptom of a long-term problem with Mario, who tried to make the same changes in March. He has never left an edit comment, much less commented on any talk page, even his own. He ignores all warnings and continues doing what he does. He's not really an editor, just a vandal. | |||
I can't think of a single reason why he shouldn't be blocked for an indefinite period. Can you? ] (]) 21:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:This seems to be a recent spat, with a long gap since the previous one involving this contributor at that article in March 2013. There doesn't seem to be any involvement by the contributor prior to that. Yes, it is a BLP and, yes, I know little about the subject matter but on the face of it there seems to be little or no discussion on the article talk page and nothing but ] on the user's talk page. Even with a general sanctions regime in place, we'd expect a bit more warning and/or explanation for the allegedly infracting contributor. Is this the way that you always deal with such issues? - ] (]) 23:07, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::While I don't want to jump to an indefinite block right away, I agree that this is a bit ridiculous. I've blocked the user for two weeks. | |||
::Sitush - I'd say there was ample warning. This isn't an IP editor - unless that's a shared account, long gaps don't excuse repeated instances of vandalism without acknowledging warnings. ] 23:14, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::My problem was that no-one seems to have explained much to them. I've just done that but conflicted with your block. - ] (]) 23:20, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I'd agree that explanation wasn't quite thorough, but there were multiple notes saying "Hey, you're doing this wrong, please don't do it again". Ignoring those without even asking what people are referring to is the editor's own misstep. ] 23:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Yeah, it's no big deal. The big deal to me was the request for an indef - ''that'' was ridiculous. - ] (]) 23:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
(The main thing I'm trying to draw attention to in those diffs is the declaration that an edit "will not be made'. Please see below before taking claims of local consensus at face value) | |||
Agreed - though, if the user continues their behaviour after the block lifts, it's a different story. ] 23:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Yes. This is a first and final situation. - ] (]) 23:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::mop, thanks for responding. If this block gets them to wake up and smell the coffee, great. If not, I'll be back here again. ] (]) 00:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::MilesMoney: more words upfront, fewer blocks later. ] (]) 02:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::That's true. I tried words. They didn't work, so it was time for a block. Hopefully the block will get through where words didn't. ] (]) 06:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:This sort of behavior is precisely why many forums have taken to banning overzealous ]/] supporters ("Paultards" and "Paulbots", as they're called). And they typically don't take kindly to any sort of criticism. This particular example is certainly a step up from the usual behavior (i.e., simply spamming pages with "RON PAUL 2016 END DA FED STATISTS SHEEPLE ITS HAPPENING"), but I don't see any reason why this individual shouldn't be blocked indefinitely regardless, since they are clearly ] to make constructive edits.--] (]) 10:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::MM, because a couple of edits several months apart is not often indicative of zealotry. Zealots are not usually shy about being forward. They'll get hit hard next time, if there is a next time. - ] (]) 11:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Most recently he decided to just blanket slander multiple editors who disagree with him while again calling for a moratorium on changes he doesn't like. | |||
== 171.159.64.10 having a month-long vandal-fest == | |||
More specifically this line: | |||
This IP came to my attention due to a non-sense post left on my talk page. I looked through the ] for the IP, and started reviewing edits made by it. I found, going back more than a month, that of about three dozen edits, half have been malicious, and most were in article space. A few were reverted by other editors, and I reverted half a dozen more. Today alone, the IP has left garbage messages on three user talk pages. | |||
{{tq|Rather than persuade editors, it seems editors are attempting to force these changes through.}} (right below an entire thread that was made before a controversial change specifically to discuss said change) | |||
There are also a bunch of legitimate edits, mostly minor, but a few somewhat moe substantial. | |||
The IP traces back to Bank of America. One of the dits added the name of a non-notable bank of America customer service representative to the ] disambiguation page. | |||
I feel this last one is the most important, because it highlights a pattern of what's been going on here: Toa telling editors a local consensus has been reached, and that they're free to read back, and then citing their own requests obliquely as if they're others ("{{tq|or called for a moratorium on changes}}") and, most importantly, creating an in-group of who is allowed to weigh in on article content ({{tq|Only one active discussion-engaged user}}). Other editors, like @], have been calling them out for this as well. | |||
I do not know what can be done about this. I doubt we want to block a BoA IP, as it represents possibly thousands of employees with no negative history, and possibly a bunch of them being productive editors (as evidenced by the dozen+ positive edits in the history. | |||
Note, actually doing what Toa asks and looking back through old talk page discussions on this largely results in finding Toa telling people the same thing then, too. | |||
Today's user page edits: | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:NazariyKaminski&diff=prev&oldid=578171858 | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ASufidisciple&diff=578171330&oldid=578170690 | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Dovid&diff=578170631&oldid=578164658 | |||
There's a content dispute under-riding most of this, which frankly is probably best adjudicated at this point by literally anyone other than Toa or myself. The meat of this ANI is wholly independent of the content dispute, except insofar as Toa's apparently not been engaging in the most NPOV way with editors when it comes to sourcing requirements. I want to point out that despite Toa's reality-bending insistence I've been pretty open to admitting a different proposal for a change from others was better than my own idea. In an attempt to placate his revert-happy self on what I was sure would be controversial (removing 'conservative' from the dominant ideology of the party) I started by making a discussion thread highlighting that the sources that were being used didn't make that claim, including direct quotes from the papers. Except for admonishing editors for wanting change, he's mostly elected to just straight up ignore any substantive discussion over the exact thing he's reverting. This is clearly OWN and POV editing, and it looks like previous attempts to caution him for edit warring were met with ''. I'd honestly like to bow out of editing that page entirely for a while for ''so'' many reasons, but I don't want to leave it in a state where one editor has declared an article theirs. | |||
'''Addendum:''' for the same behaviour is being discussed, but the link is buried in the discussion.] 15:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Vandalism, some of it subtle enough to just introduce fake facts that could easily be missed: | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mike_Alvarado&diff=575536621&oldid=574804490 | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Game_Boy_Color&diff=576187939&oldid=575458122 | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Silver_fox&diff=577747735&oldid=576025849 -- this is the BoA CSA edit | |||
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rock_Hill,_South_Carolina&diff=577762275&oldid=574362388 | |||
The page-in-question ''should'' be stable & at status quo. Best to work out content disputes on the page-in-questions' talkpage. ] (]) 15:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
There are others if you care to look. | |||
:I don't think that the content dispute should be decided here. To be clear, 99% of the content dispute is moving one sentence earlier in the article and removing a source that failed verification. We're not talking about seeing how fast we can invoke Godwin's Law in a page about the GOP (though admittedly some editors are). I genuinely don't think the content in question actually substantial at all, which is why one editor increasingly spiralling into mudslinging over it while refusing to discuss changes beyond categorical rejection or highly mobile goalposts for inclusion is a problem. ] 15:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
- ] (]) 23:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I am out of town, and don't have time to reply fully to all of this. But the general dispute ongoing at the page is twofold: {{u|Warrenmck}} wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right", and they want "conservatism" to be removed as a majority faction. There doesn't appear to be support for either of these things (an ongoing RfC on the "far-right" designation is trending a pretty strong consensus in opposition, and removing conservatism appears to be equally unlikely to reach consensus). This is a content dispute involving, at this point, probably at least a dozen editors, and should be resolved on the page. | |||
:While blocking the IP isn't that big of a deal, we could also pursue an abuse report with the ISP/BoA themselves - this isn't a rangeblock, so I don't imagine this would affect more than one location (unless they share an enterprise network across their entire company). ] 23:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:What {{u|Warrenmck}} does not seem to understand is that changing political positions on pages is something that comes up ''all the time''. None of the arguments presented have been new, and a local consensus has been developed with the collaboration of many editors. This took a lot of hard work and compromise to reach. | |||
:For editors like myself - who worked on the present consensus versions - this is not a fresh, new discussion. It's more or less an endless string of discussions that have been ongoing for years. This is why several other editors - not just myself (and I'm not even the one who came up with the idea - that was {{u|Czello}}. I was actually the third to support one) have supported a moratorium on said discussions. There is nothing wrong with discussing a moratorium on repetitive topics that repeatedly emerge on talk pages. | |||
:I will also note that, I have not, in fact, blindly opposed any changes to the article. I did not object when “right-wing populism” was added as a majority faction; I didn’t even participate in the discussion, iirc, because it was such an obvious changed. And in this discussion I've ''added'' additional citations to address {{u|Warrenmck}}'s concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes. It goes without saying that the article is not mine, I have never claimed it is mine, and I have no interest in subverting or going against whatever consensus is reached through talk page discussions, rather than brute force. '''] ]''' 15:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Once again, what I was calling for was including "far right" as a ''minor faction'', per the an absolute ocean of reliable sources. Even you explicitly stated in the RfC it's a minor ideology. You've accused me of wanting to make the page about the republicans being far right multiple times now, and the only time you've responded to me saying that 's not what I'm doing here was to say that having it on the page at all slanders the party as that | |||
::{{quote|Except the RfC isn’t about labelling the party far right, it’s about naming it as a minor ideology, which you here acknowledge?}} | |||
::and you responded | |||
::{{quote|Which is labeling the party as it.}} | |||
::Which isn't how NPOV editing works. | |||
::Beyond that I simply don't believe that Toa is accurately representing the discussions that are there now or the historical discussions around local consensus. | |||
::{{tq|I will also note that, I have not, in fact, opposed any changes. In fact, I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes}} | |||
::Please, any admin reading this exact quoted line, immediately go look at Toa's engagement on this exact point . Toa added a source paper, I read the source paper, removed it because it simply didn't make the claim it was being used to make, and instantly started a discussion thread asking for sources and explicitly explaining my removal. ''I did not make the change I knew would be controversial'', that was a different editor later. I also quoted the specific line in the paper which discussed why it wasn't an approprioate source for the claim it was being used for in my removal () Which Toa almost completely ignored. This is simply not an accurate recounting of events. | |||
::This is why I think this is an ANI issue. Toa routinely misrepresents or overstates consensus and historical discussions, while running off editors who don't agree, then claiming that only the long term editors should have a meaningful say. ] 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Please find a time where I said you “want to make the page about the Republicans being far right”. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that. I have said you clearly have strong views about the subject, though. | |||
:::What you are referencing was a typo. Notice that it’s not even a complete sentence? '''] ]''' 16:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Literally in this ANI: | |||
::::{{tq|Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right"}} | |||
::::That is not the same thing as defining far-right as a minor ideology of the party. Also from the talk page: | |||
::::{{tq|Its exclusion is not odd, as academic sources do not widely or generally or even often refer to the party as far-right, which is typically associated with literal fascism or Nazism. Believe it or not, this has been discussed dozens of times - including several in the last few months - and editors have reached a consensus that academic sources broadly refer to the party as center-right or right-wing.}} ] 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::You are making a distinction without a difference. '''] ]''' 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Involved: These are content disputes and should be dealt with at that level. ] (]) 16:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* ] appears to have been exceedingly cordial and professional in the differences you provided above. I see no wrongdoing on their part. ] ] 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Follow-up: I've e-mailed BoA's abuse department to see what they have to say. ] 23:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:I cannot disagree, except I think that speaking authoritatively about how a change will not be done regardless of sources provided simply breaks ]: | |||
::If it's a general IP applying to numerous Bank of America employees, how could they know who was doing the abuse?--] (]) 00:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:{{quote|An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.}} | |||
:::The customer service representative that they added to ] might be them... but it might also be someone that they're trying to frame. Therefore, reporting them to ] could have destructive effects on an innocent person.--] (]) 00:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:The other problem is that the consensus they're pointing to doesn't seem to substantially exist. There's an abundance of "go see the old discussions" which themselves say "go see the old discussions" and so on. It's artificial, and it's being used to prevent edits that users don't like, as opposed to edits they can substantively object to. Seriously, just look at his presentation of these previous discussions here ] and go back in the archives. While I'm sure there were discussions at some (possibly many) points, there's a ''hell'' of a lot of reliable sources being objected to there on a house of cards. | |||
::::I've worked for banks, and I've worked in security. I would be entirely surprised if they can't search proxy logs for URLs matching specific page names and &edit -- but they need to be motivated to do it, because those logs can be hairy and expensive to analyze at that level. ] (]) 03:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*:Additionally, I think that's masking the fact that they're simply refusing to engage editors while reverting the article to the status quo. They're basically holding the article hostage by pointing people to an ongoing discussion they're not engaging in (, or on the talk pages with "see previous discussion" as a threadkiller). So the choice editors are left with is to edit war over an inclusion, or give up. The issue isn't that there's a content dispute here, it's that someone has ]ed their way into objecting to a specific edit on an ongoing basis, always maintaining a layer of "content dispute". As ] said, {{tq|"Do you have a content-based case to make here or do you just declare editor's contributions to be "low quality" if you disagree with them?"}} ] 16:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{outdent}} This ] Bank of America IP kicking off lately. If the BoA would like to try to mitigate the damage internally they are welcome to do so ''alongside'' our anti-vandalism efforts, but I can't see any reason to allow specific IPs known to be used abusively to vandalize articles and harass those reverting them while they do internal checks. --]<sup>]</sup> 03:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*::It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. ] 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place ''after'' I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer ] problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an ] mentality. ] (]) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::@] appears to be actively involved in this, and there's comments on their guarding against "far right" in the article going back at least two years of the same argumentation pattern and misrepresenting sourcing requirements and consensus. and . I agree this seems more like a CPUSH. For example, this was directed at Springee from the last diff: | |||
*::::{{tq|The same failed arguments have been made in several similar discussions of late}} | |||
*::::Basically, the patten we're seeing at Republican Party (United States) appears to be ongoing with several of the key users objecting to changes on identical grounds year after year without ever really explaining why these aren't open for discussion in light of sourcing standards. @] appears to be engaging in an identical pattern in many of the same articles. TFD, Toa, and Springee show up ''all over''[REDACTED] making the same tortured arguments around academic sourcing and consensus when someone mentions "far-right" in an article. Every single time it's a complete slamming of the door of the possibility that RS could ever be met for the inclusion of information they deem controversial. ] 13:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. ] (]) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::::::Sorry, being vague wasn't my intention. I think you're engaging in the same CPUSH behaviour as Toa, just maintaining civility much better. It's possible to find ''years'' worth of identical argumentation from you on this across many articles, always with the same anything-other-than-excluding-content-is-unacceptable, and above you're continuing the relatively nonsensical arguments from Toa with Simonm223 in asking for unique sourcing standards for a claim you really don't like. You pick this fight very consistently on Misplaced Pages, usually with the same arguments. | |||
*::::::If I'm way out of line here I'm fine accepting a boomerang, but I see several editors going way off the deep end in trying to prevent a very specific change to articles on Misplaced Pages that seems to be coming from a place of stonewalling ] 14:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::::::I hope my arguments have been consistent because I try to pay strict adherence to content policy and guidelines. ] (]) 17:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Accusing other editors of making "low quality" edits instead of making an argument isn't helpful or professional, and neither is demanding a unique standard for edits one is opposed to. ] (]) 17:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* This is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article. This discussion should be closed. ] (]) 19:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:Respectfully ] and ] are behavioural problems. ] (]) 20:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:As a comment, Toa’s response to multiple users adding failed verification tag was to go tag all the sources making a political claim they don’t like as failing verification en masse (). | |||
:This. We block even IPs on the "sensitive IP" list when it's necessary, and corporate proxies with who-knows-how-many users behind them, so I don't see that BoA needs any special treatment. Also, I'd be surprised if a strict interpretation of their ] would allow for Misplaced Pages editing anyway, so I doubt anyone in management or IT there would care if we block them as needed. —] (]) 07:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:while these all on their own may be legitimate tags (though other editors have been removing some tags as apparently they did pass verification) I think taking this in the context of them actually refusing to discuss the failed verification tag that lead to this spree ''at all'' makes this pretty ] behaviour to me. If Toa wants to discuss bad edits, that’s good and fine. But they can’t have a policy of using bad edits from other people to deflect from any discussion around edits they themselves feel are valid. Apparently he doesn't have enough time to fully engage with this ANI or any of the discussions around his own edits, but does have enough time to read dozens of articles and point by point articulate his issue with each over at the talk page for ]. ] 08:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I'd support a 24-hour block for all IPs related to BofA customer service personnel. Maybe then they'll have time to help me with my credit card. Thanks. ] (]) 10:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:'''Comment:''' ] for this exact behaviour in 2022. The reason given at the time was | |||
:::The activity is intermittent, so we need more than 24h. (And yes, I do understand you were tongue-in-cheek.) ] (]) 14:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:{{quote|Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it.}} | |||
:I think a {{]}} is needed for the BoA Ips to prevent vandalism. ]] 16:48, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:This is the same pattern of behaviour he's accused of here, for the same thing, and that resulted in an indefinite TBAN. Springee and TFD are again involved there, as well. This should make it pretty clear that, civility aside, this is a problem. A long, ongoing one. ] 14:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to ] more than ]. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. ] (]) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Honestly I agree having seen more of this being a systematic issue since making this ANI. ] 14:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Perhaps the issue is that good faith editor don't agree. A failure to get consensus to add a controversial claim is hardly proof of CPUSH. Additionally as the number of accused editors goes up it looks more like a true content dispute vs a single editor problem. I will also note that Toa has done quite a bit to review some of the references used to support the disputed changes and makes a good case that they don't support the claims within the edits being pushed into the article. ] (]) 14:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. ] (]) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::{{tq|Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy.}} | |||
::::And ''very clearly'' retaliatory. ] 14:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings. Per ]: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". If the source does not back up the cited claim, it shouldn't be used. This is... pretty ordinary stuff, actually. | |||
:::::You'll notice I did not remove the broader claims, or change the in-article text. All I have done is trim sources that do not back up the claim given, which is something Misplaced Pages citations are required to do. If you reaction to a source review that results in no changes to prose is to file a report rather than discuss, challenge, or revert, you might have a hard time being successful with that. '''] ]''' 15:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::{{tq|You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings}} | |||
::::::Would you please provide the diff where you substantively responded to a thread made directly about a source you added not passing verification, which you were pinged in and did actually participate without addressing the substance of? Because that would go a long way towards convincing me this isn't a smokescreen of policy to mask more sealioning in a thin veneer of civility and plausible deniability. How about addressing any of the comments providing the ''exact'' types of sources you were asked for? When I did provide a reason and eventually reverted your addition, you just reverted with "nah it didn't fail verification" ignoring both the edit summary prior and the entire talk page discussion about the entire situation. As I said there, neither I nor any other editor personally needs to run improvements on the article through you, personally. If you object without engaging or explaining, it's perfectly reasonable for editors to simply ignore your perspectives. ] 15:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. '''] ]''' 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::No. The content dispute isn't the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I don't agree with {{U|Springee}} about some of their interpretations of appropriate content but I don't think their comportment is problematic except in as far as it gives cover to yours. Rather it's two things: how you insist sources should be interpreted and how you engage with other editors that has become disruptive. ] (]) 15:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::The diff I asked for had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with you attempting to paint other editors as sidestepping a process you yourself have refused to engage in as a matter of policy, apparently going back far enough for you to have already received an indef TBAN for ''the exact same behaviour''. ] 15:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::As a perfect example, in this diff they claim that the New York Times piece does not support referring to the Republican party as right-wing populist. <s>This is because it says that the party isn't ''just'' a touch more populist. It then compares the Republican party under Trump to the racist populist ] and the fascist propagandist ]. This, to me, is more than sufficient to support "right-wing populism" but, because the article uses simile, Toa Nidhiki05 calls it a "Gish Gallop". </s>] (]) 15:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Ok here's the correct quote now: {{tq|The overarching pattern is clear. In election after election, Democrats underperformed among traditional Democratic constituencies during the Trump era. Sometimes, it was merely a failure to capitalize on his unpopularity. Other times, it was a staggering decline in support. Together, it has shattered Democratic dreams of building a new majority with the rise of a new generation of young and nonwhite voters.<br /> This overarching pattern requires an overarching explanation: Mr. Trump’s populist conservatism corroded the foundations of the Democratic Party’s appeal. It tapped into many of the issues and themes that once made these voters Democrats.<br /> While the damage was mostly concealed by Mr. Trump’s unpopularity, the backlash to his norm-shattering presidency drew the Democratic Party even further from its traditional roots. The extent of that damage is now clear.}} | |||
::::::Now this article does compare the ''Democratic party'' as a whole to ''Trump'' on a purely linguistic level. However context matters here. The first line of the article is {{tq|It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it.}} The NYT has as table-stakes that the Republicans were transformed by Trump. In this context I think it's a reasonable argument that "Trump" here is a stand-in for the party of Trump. ] (]) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Also, the ''New York Times'' introduces the article by saying, "Nate Cohn, The Times’s chief political analyst, makes sense of the latest political data." ] says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Therefore this is not an acceptable source. | |||
:::::::It disruptive that so many unreliable sources have been presented in the discussion pages. It wastes edtiors' time as they discuss sources that cannot be used. | |||
:::::::My suggestion is that going forward, unreliable sources that are presented should be struck out and editors who persist in presenting them should face sanctions. That will allow editors to focus on what reliable sources say. ] (]) 16:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what ] says {{tq|When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.}} ] (]) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::In this case the author is a journalist with a BA in politics IOW he has the same background one would expect for the writer of an analysis in a newspaper. Furthermore, when policy says that this type of source is "rarely reliable," the onus is on the person presenting it to explain why it should be deemed reliable. ] (]) 17:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page. Maybe it would be best if editors heavily involved there, would avoid each other & allow newcomers room to give their input. Might lower the heat. ] (]) 16:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Hello I think this IP is owned by a lot of people here at this company .... I did not do any of the edits above? | |||
] (]) 23:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hi, This is probably a shared IP, Consider to create an account or login so you can avoid any irrelevant notices. Cheers! ]] 16:48, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:{{tq|Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page.}} | |||
== Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre == | |||
:It isn't, for what it's worth. It's about a consistent pattern of behaviours going back years that came out, mostly, in the thread after the RfC, though partially there as well. Beyond that, good call. ] 16:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Is this the type of report that would be better addressed at ]? ~~ ] (]) 16:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The article No Gun Ri Massacre has been under attack since August by someone, username WeldNeck, intent on sugarcoating and suppressing facts about the culpability of the U.S. military for this mass killing of refugees in 1950. | |||
:Frankly, probably? I misjudged how long this had been going on and the scale of it. ] 17:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
The article deals with the large-scale killing of South Korean refugees at No Gun Ri early in the Korean War, an event first confirmed by The Associated Press in 1999, reconfirmed and elaborated upon by other news organizations, and then affirmed in investigations by the U.S. and South Korean governments. From the beginning, before the government investigative reports, apologists for the U.S. military, and in particular for the responsible 7th U.S. Cavalry Regiment, have attacked the messengers, the media, over this blot on the U.S. record. From 2006 to 2011, the Misplaced Pages article fell under their sway, and in the process turned into a useless, incoherent mess. In 2012, it was brought back into shape as a solid, factual, highly informative and readable WP article. Now with WeldNeck's intervention, particularly with his efforts to suppress facts and revive long-ago discredited attacks on the media, it is slipping into tendentiousness and sloppiness again. | |||
::I think it would be better suited to AE except that it's here now and AE tends not to like having an issue open at two venues. ] (]) 17:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I don't see why you consider this a behavioral issue rather than a content dispute. I follow a lot of articles that attract editors with fringe views: fascism is left-wing, cultural marxism and Jewish bolshevism are not just conspiracy theories, aspartame is dangerous, climate science is unsettled, etc. Some editors explain why these views are wrong, while others point to previous discussions. | |||
He has made 58 edits since August, with 35 in October alone. It has been very difficult for contributors even to keep up with the many, many ways he has altered the article. Among the most serious and damaging changes have been his adding of nonexistent exculpatory clauses in describing declassified military documents that authorized the indiscriminate killing of civilians in Korea 1950 (clauses such as "as warranted," or "when they were suspected to be North Korean forces"; or "after they were determined to be hostile." Such qualifiers don't appear in the documents, which were reported in media and other reliable sources and can be linked to from the article); his deletion of sentences in the WP article that reflect negatively on the U.S. military or officials, such as his elimination, in two places, of the fact that the U.S. Army, by its own admission, deliberately omitted the highly incriminating "Muccio letter" from its investigative report, and his deletion, as usual without explanation, of an ex-soldier's testimony that troops were told to shoot "everyone from 6 to 60"; deleting a sentence noting the U.S. Army failed to investigate No Gun Ri in 1950, although it knew about the killings then. Many more errors and problems were introduced, including some petty ones, such as his removal from the Further Reading list of a leading scholar of this period of the Korean War because WeldNeck says he doesn't like his political views. | |||
::If anyone should be banned, it isn't editors who insist that articles reflect reliable sources, but editors who try to inject fringe theories unsupported by reliable sources. | |||
::On your user page, you mention that you have written peer-reviewed articles in geophysics and vulcanology. Certainly you would not rely on an analysis by a journalist as reliable in those papers. For example, you would not use it for explaining why a particular volcano erupted. ] (]) 20:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
WeldNeck posts at Talk, but almost always in a confrontational, not conciliatory way, dismissing fellow contributors or attacking their integrity, very rarely engaging directly with the substance of an error or overreach that's pointed out to him, but instead reverting to his error-plagued material when others correct it. | |||
:::Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. ] (]) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::See ]: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." | |||
WeldNeck’s actions at this page are very reminiscent of those months earlier of user Kauffner, who I understand was eventually banned from WP. I also understand WeldNeck was cleared of being a Kauffner sockpuppet. WeldNeck also was warned about edit warring at another page. Being relatively new to WP, I don't know what action/sanction would be appropriate in this case. But I do know that WeldNeck's aggressiveness and determination to emasculate this WP article bodes ill for the truth and for Misplaced Pages's mission in this very important historical area. | |||
::::Can you explain why in determining how to desribe a political group you prefer an article by a journalist rather than a political scientist writing in a peer-reviewed publication? Do you think it is prudent to substitute a consensus academic opinion with that of a journalist? | |||
::::If I want to know how to categorize a poltical group or know why volcanoes erupt, my go to source isnt't a newspaper. Instead, I would look for an article by an expert. ] (]) 15:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
If I am following this properly, via the thread on the linked talk page: | |||
# The OP made a thread on ] saying that we should change the article to say that it was "anti-intellectual" and "far-right". | |||
# Toa_Nidhiki05 said that this was a bad idea, and some stuff about previous consensus against doing this. | |||
# ??? | |||
# AN/I thread | |||
Is there anything I'm missing here? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Sealioning, a previous TBAN for identical behaviour, and multiple editors weighing in saying this is a CPUSH issue? ] 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I first entered this report at the Administrators’ Noticeboard/Edit Warring, but the admin there referred me to this incidents noticeboard, although this clearly involves edit warring, in view of WeldNeck’s rapid-fire reversals of efforts to correct him and his intransigent attitude. Here are the further details from that edit warring noticeboard report: | |||
::You've said I'm guilty of sealioning three times in this thread, but as far as I can tell you haven't actually defined what you think that means, or what I've done. It's a pretty specific set of behavior - can you explain what I've done that qualifies as sealioning? | |||
::But to answer JPxG: yeah, that's essentially it. Like I said above, it doesn't look like either of Warrenmck's proposed changes will make it into the article, and I'm surprised this content dispute hasn't been closed yet. '''] ]''' 23:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::You have refused to engage editors in the exact process you demand they engage in, you put forward sourcing standards which, when met, you completely dodge. On one hand you ask editors to discuss and respect consensus, on the other you wield prior consensus as a cudgel to prevent a change you don’t like and have made it abundantly clear that the sourcing standards you demand are not actually sourcing standards you’ll accept, rather, to quote an admin in your last TBAN: {{tq|There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any basis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines}}. You’re engaging in vindictive editing patterns, which evidence has also been provided for. You have refused to articulate the actual substance of prior consensus other than pointing at it and saying “consensus, consensus, consensus” and when the exact arguments that lead to said consensus (apparently, you’ve still never linked a prior discussion) are being addressed and met you ignore the editor, as multiple people here have pointed out. | |||
:::You’ve been doing this for ''years'' and were TBANed for it in 2022. Your attempt at denying it here rings hollow when multiple editors have been ''very'' explicit and provided diffs for sealioning behaviour. Im frankly a bit surprised at @]’s rapid read of the situation considering the evidence of a TBAN for the exact behaviour raised here and multiple editors chiming in saying they see a ]. ] 06:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Version before WeldNeck's edit warring: | |||
::::I'm going to repeat this link which is referred to above but kind of hidden, here is the discussion that lead to the 2022 topic ban: ], just in case anyone wants to review it. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::It’s also worth pointing out that their reply to @] engages in some of the direct behaviour they’re being called out for here: seemingly reasonably asking for a discussion while ignoring that what they’re asking for was already provided without them participating | |||
:::::{{tq|You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings}} | |||
:::::In a vacuum, this looks like a completely reasonable editor engaged in a very civil discussion around edits. In practice this was already done before this comment, and Toa refused to engage in the discussion except one about the retaliatory edits, i.e. only edits they personally felt failed verification were up for discussion, not those they felt didn’t. Here they tell me I’m free to undo the source review, but apparently only on the sources they tagged as unreliable because the ones I tagged, evidenced, and started a discussion thread about were unilaterally removed, twice, with a simple claim that it didn’t fail verification with no attempt at engaging in the discussion thread about this exact thing except to tell me I’m “very passionate about this” and I shouuld stop editing . | |||
:::::A content dispute isn’t possible to properly adjudicate if one party is refusing to engage, then pointing to prior consensus. Toa has created a situation where they and their ephemeral prior consensus have right of review on an article. ] 08:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::*As I expected, {{ping|Warrenmck}} - your claims are simply baseless. Consider this my final response to them. | |||
::::::*First off, let's talk about my topic ban. No, I did not get topic banned for sealioning. It was for disruptive behavior at the ] page - frankly, it was embarrassing, and the sanction was warranted. The fact you're having to resort to a years-old incident instead of right now, though, is pretty telling in terms of the merit of ''this'' report. | |||
::::::*Your claims of sealioning ring hollow because you ''still cannot define what POV I am pushing'' - I'm still not even convinced you know what sealioning ''is''. Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list ] and ] as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors. See the problem here? I've behaved civilly, while your general response to... any sort of disagreement is make frivolous claims against me. If anyone's behavior should be on watch here, it is ''yours'', because it's been utterly ridiculous. | |||
::::::*You seem extremely caught up on what I told you during your initial proposal here - how I told you your edit would not be accepted, and that while this is a topic you're clearly passionate about, it might be best for you to step away from it if you're unable to distance your personal feelings. '''I think everything I said is correct'''. Your proposal was '''bad'''. It didn't add any new information to the table, it isn't backed up by high-quality academic sources, and effectively all it's done is waste time. Like I said: your proposal may have been made in good faith, but it is not going to be accepted. And I was right! The RfC you started (after an initial discussion where nobody agreed with you, and an earlier attempt you made at an RfC that was malformed) has opposes ahead of supports by over a 2:1 margin. Your proposal to remove conservatism has been received as equally poorly. | |||
::::::*Similarly, your response to my source review wasn't to contest changes on the talk page or revert them - but instead, to accuse me '''here''' of "retaliation"; as far as I can tell, the only one you directly commented on at the talk page is to ''agree'' with me. | |||
::::::*Instead of looking inward and reconsidering your contributions, you instead started a frivolous, retaliatory AN/I board discussion that pretty much every uninvolved editor has reacted with bewilderment over. | |||
::::::*I am going to be blunt here: you are wasting '''my''' time, you are wasting '''your''' time, and you're wasting '''everyone's''' time here. Frankly, I think you should strongly consider limiting or ending your involvement in AP2 if your response to a basic content dispute and not getting your way is to post frivolous reports to AN/I. '''] ]''' 13:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::*:As per link Liz provided above, your topic ban wasn't for disruptive behaviour on the Stacey Abrams page. That page isn't mentioned in the AIN discussion closure comments. The Republican Party article is, and the outcome was a a ban from that page and a topic ban, with the reasons cited being, among others, retaliatory posting, evidence of personal attacks, bludgeoning, and edit-warring. ] (]) 14:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::*::TN, you have been very selective in what you see at article talk. In one instance you say, regarding the Republican Party's center-right designation, that there should be a moratorium on such discussions because "nothing new" has been presented. That is despite the fact that there are ''several new peer reviewed sources'' that contradict center-right and support far-right that have been presented and ignored by you. But the one time I agreed with you regarding a low-quality source you were very fast to point out my agreement in discussion. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that is leading to the complaints of sealioning. Regarding your POV it is that you want to retain the status quo at the page. You don't want to see revision, especially, to any high-level indicators of overall ideology such as infoboxes. That's fine we all have POVs. Mine is that the page is non-neutral calling the Republicans a center-right party. The problem comes when you ignore all evidence that contradicts your POV over the objection of ''multiple other editors'' and insist that no sources have been provided despite an abundance of high-quality sources being provided. ] (]) 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::*:::A professional paid editor frankly should have a much more complete understanding of ], ], and ]. ] 14:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::*:Nothing you said there replies to the post you responded to. This feels like a gish gallop. One with a reasonable number of falsehoods, at that. For example: | |||
::::::*:{{tq|Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors.}} | |||
::::::*:Why not, for the folks at ANI reading along, explain the ''context'' in which I said I was going to unilaterally add far-right in? Hmm? Here's a . | |||
::::::*::'''1.''' You failed to actually demonstrate there was a consensus, as one didn't exist in the place you directed me to. | |||
::::::*::'''2.''' Neither you nor Springee, who you've been tag-teaming with on this exact edit for ''years'', once articulated why it "wasn't going to be included" other than to state tautologically that it was not | |||
::::::*::'''3.''' In the absence of any substantive objection, ] material should be added in. | |||
::::::*:] doesn't assume a stonewalled refusal to engage, and if the only substance to the objection I'm getting is a vague statement about an unreferenced consensus and ] then yeah, I'm going to edit it in. I'm very used to editing in contentious article spaces and this isn't the first time I've seen this approach used to keep out changes. You can point to your civility until the cows come home but if it's masking POV editing that needs to be addressed. ] 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::*If you're going to accuse {{ping|Springee}} of something, you could at least do them the decency of tagging them. That being said - the idea I've been tag-teaming with them for years on this is silly, because the page didn't have a political position listed until late last year (something you'd know if you... read the talk page archives, like you claim you have), so I'm not exactly sure what you think has been going on here. | |||
::::::::*Moreover: there is, in fact, a consensus. I'm fairly confident I've pointed it out to you, but it was developed in the talk page in archives 32-34; there's not a single thread to pinpoint because it took place over numerous threads. Given what you've said above, however, I don't think you actually did ever read those discussions. The fact you're simply unable to accept that a ] exists (or, evidently, the fact that editors do not agree with your proposed changes by a 2:1 margin) is on you. | |||
::::::::*With that, I'm done. If you want to waste your time litigating a content dispute at AN/I, go ahead. I'm no longer engaging with this. '''] ]''' 15:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::*:Others should note that this is the exact same pattern of behaviour that Warrenmck and I both highlighted previously: selectively responding to arguments that they can refute while ignoring those they cannot, pointing to a vaguely defined local consensus without pointing to a specific decision, and a fair bit of diversion with the whole complaint of not tagging @], who is already quite thoroughly engaged in this thread. ] (]) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::*::Why are you presenting arguments that can be refuted? ] (]) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::*:::I don't think I am, being honest, especially since you and I agree on source quality and I've taken great care to base my arguments on a large number of reliable peer reviewed academic sources rather than news media. But there are multiple editors involved in this discussion. ] (]) 15:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::*::I'm generally following this discussion. I think it would be helpful if we all try to assume good faith. It's clear there is a disagreement here. If editors feel they have successfully made a case against the status quo and feel the objectors are wrong I would suggest starting a RfC to confirm the answer. That's the best process for establishing that a consensus exists. I would also note that, right or wrong, rather than pushing edits into the article when consensus etc isn't clear, those wanting change should start a RfC so we can at least finish with a declared consensus on the question. We all ready have a "far-right" RfC open so half of this fight should be addressed when that one closes. ] (]) 15:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:{{u|Warrenmck}}, you've replied to this discussion 20 times you started it. I advise you to reign it in a bit, as this has been treading towards ]. You don't need to reply to every single comment in this discussion. Just mentioning this because the constant replies actually dissuaded me from reading through it all. ] (]) 18:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Sorry, I can back away ] 18:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Repeated WP:GS/AA violations == | |||
<!-- In the section below, link to diffs of the user's reverts. Add more lines if needed. Dates are optional. Remember, you do need *4* reverts to violate WP:3RR, although edit warring has no such strict rule. --> | |||
Diffs of ''some'' of the user's edit warring and reverts: | |||
# 8 August: Deletes important sentence without explainer (SEE COMMENTS BELOW FOR GENERAL BACKGROUND TO WELDNECK'S DAMAGING EDITS, REVERTS; 58 EDITS SINCE AUGUST) | |||
# 8 August: Removes witness, illogical reason. | |||
# 8 August: Removes "massacre" twice, though that's article's title. | |||
# 9 August: Misrepresents analyst's call for integrity process, attributing it instead to South Koreans. | |||
# 9 August: Removes key source, North Korean journalist. | |||
# 19 August: Removes leading scholar from Further Reading because dislikes his views. | |||
# 7 October: Reverts fixes to Aerial imagery section with dismissive few words. | |||
# 7 October: Misleads on which investigators found 2nd Battalion responsible. | |||
# 7 October: Removes entire Korean commission description of events, without discussion, explanation. | |||
# 9 October: Falsifies description of Navy document re strafing civilians, adding nonexistent exculpatory clause (sugarcoating) | |||
# 9 October: A dozen highly objectionable changes, including falsifying the description of Army "shoot refugees" documents by adding nonexistent sugarcoating clauses, and deleting without explanation an ex-soldier's testimony that they were told to shoot "everyone from 6 to 60." | |||
# 9 October: Deletes Pentagon statement that discredited witness wasn't essential to investigation; no explanation, as usual. | |||
# 10 October: Reverts contributor's removal of extraneous material. | |||
# 15 October: Again reverts contributor's fixes to his Aerial imagery edits. | |||
# 15 October: Deletes sentences noting, with citation, AP refutation of attacks on its journalism, and NY Times article supportive of AP. | |||
# 18 October: Though warned in Talk that "infiltrators" in official Army history doesn't mean enemy disguised as refugees, inserts actions involving infiltrators to build case against refugees. | |||
On , I informed ] about the ] extended confirmed restriction and explained what it meant. | |||
<!-- For more complex cases, it may be necessary to provide a previous version for each revert, or the actual words that are being changed. Adjust your report as necessary --> | |||
<!-- Warn the user if you have not already done so. --> | |||
Diff of edit warring / 3RR warning: | |||
Scherbatsky12 still created several articles or made expansions in areas covered by ] such as the following: ], ], ], and made poorly sourced POV additions such as: | |||
<!-- You've tried to resolve this edit war on the article talk page, haven't you? So put a link to the discussion here. If all you've done is reverted-without-talk, you may find yourself facing a block too --> | |||
Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: ] "If anyone has any further 'documented' issues to raise (to use WeldNeck's term) -- that is, specific, sensible questions, not the wild fantasies and fabrications of Robert Bateman, a former officer of the very regiment responsible for the killings -- it is appropriate first to do so here on the Talk page, to start a reasoned discussion and take advantage of what knowledgable people know, and not to take us back to the days of nonsensical inserts and overwrites that served no one except those who would like No Gun Ri to simply go away. Even before that, one should review the previous Talk discussions of body count and other matters". | |||
* | |||
Charles J. Hanley 13:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC) ] (] • ]) | |||
* | |||
: I don’t believe Mr Hanley has chose the right forum, although the additional attention he is bringing upon himself may damage his standing here. Mr Hanley’s primary objection to my contributions is my use of military historian LtCol Robert Bateman. Although Bateman is a well respected US military officer/historian and has published many articles and a well received book about this subject Mr Hanley objects to citing any material to him. This is because Bateman documented so many issues with Mr Hanley’s sources and caused quite headache for the AP team back in the day. | |||
* | |||
: I don’t know if there is a precedent for this, but I question whether or not Mr Hanley should even be editing this article at all given his conflict of interest. While he might deny this COI, Mr Hanley of the AP most certainly does have a conflict of interest with regard to his insistence that we not use Bateman as just a few years ago he was behind . | |||
Not only Scherbatsky12 was aware about, and even deleted the GS/AA notice , they still made several articles in its violation regardless and made GS/AA breaching additions that also include POV poorly sourced edits. ] (]) 16:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: <blockquote>Late last year, Hanley wrote a nine-page letter to Stackpole Books, the Pennsylvania publisher bringing out Bateman's book this month, saying it would be a "grave mistake" to publish Bateman's "diatribes and defamations." A copy of the letter, filled with personal attacks against the author, was made available to The Chronicle. The letter is the kind of dark threat that gives free speech experts the chills -- "an effort at prior restraint," said Bill Kovach, chairman of the Committee of Concerned Journalists -- not to mention the fact that in this case, there is a certain reversal of roles. "It's ironic for a journalist, someone whose livelihood is protected by the First Amendment, to be seemingly threatening to curtail the speech of a military person," said James Naughton, president of the Poynter Institute, a journalism school in St. Petersburg, Fla. "The way matters like this tend to get resolved over time is for people to be able to make their own judgments about which version of events holds up on examination. More access to publishable versions, rather than less, seems to be desirable."</blockquote> | |||
:Even after this report, Scherbatsky12 still continues violating the extended confirmed restriction . ] (]) 22:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: I have tried to cooperate with Mr Hanley on this article, but he is very difficult to work with. He has a few editors he stays in contact with off Wiki (nothing wrong with that IMO) but it seems like if you don’t share his particular POV and don’t work with him offline to get the story straight, he objects to your contributions on the article. | |||
::Given them a on the matter. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::@] thank you, but aren't we over a warning here? I've already left a notice on their talk back in October and explained what it meant. They still violated the restriction numerous times and even violated again just hours ago after this report. The WP:AA3 topic area has stricter rules enforcement than most other topics, and the behavior of Scherbatsky12 isn't encouraging. ] (]) 00:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::@] after violating the restriction while this report is ongoing , and your final warning, they've done it again in the same article: . It's evident the user isn't competent enough to follow rules in contentious topics such as the AA3. ] (]) 21:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I apologize for the misunderstanding. What I do not understand is whether the occupation of Kalbajar by Armenian armed forces (1993) is considered controversial or problematic (). I have merely noted that Hokuma Aliyeva relocated due to the occupation of Kalbajar (). The rest resulted from careless translation and will not be repeated again. | |||
::This isn't about if Scherbatsky12 thinks their one edit is right or wrong: the point is they shouldn't have been editing info covered by the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction at all until reaching extended confirmed rank. The fact they still don't understand this is a clear indication of incompetence in a highly contentious topic area at that. Not only this, they continued violating the restriction while being reported here. And additionally, they're now attributing "the rest" of their POV edits to "careless translation", which is bizarre: how one doesn't even check what articles/edits they're making before publishing "translations" especially in a topic area that they were is contentious and while violating a restriction they were aware about too? After their comment here, it's not reassuring that this wouldn't happen again and is further clear to me that Scherbatsky12 isn't ] enough to edit in a contentious topic area such as the AA3. ] (]) 15:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Caribbean Hindustani == | |||
: Mr Hanley’s behavior in general towards me needs to be addressed as well. He continually questions my motives and compares me to a . ] (]) 14:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*{{articlelinks|Caribbean Hindustani}} | |||
This is probably not the appropriate page, but I couldn't find a better one. If an admin may have a look at the version history of the ] article - there's two quite new editors battling out a dispute since December. Maybe some administrative guidance would help them. Thanks and kind regards, ] 18:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Seems like a topic-ban would be the easiest and quickest solution here. ] (]) 04:47, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Per the notice at the top of this page, you were supposed to alert both editors of this thread. I've done so for you. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:This: , may or may not be helpful. I'd also add that I can't force someone to discuss something on the talkpage: ] (]) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::That would make sense if you'd tried discussing on the talk page, but you didn't head there until Tarbly asked you to. You can't force someone to discuss something but you can try discussing which you haven't done until now. Expecting the other party to start a discussion is rarely good editor behaviour especially when you are edit warring. Instead it's like a lame kids 'they started it' defence. The only way you can prove an editor refuses to discuss on the talk page is by trying otherwise you can both be counted as refusing to discuss. To be clear except the first sentence, this applies to both of you. ] (]) 00:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I have added several sources and journel and official government and NGO sites that work on it to prove what I am writing. But that user dont have source to prove it and its just his opinion which he had written. | |||
:He also wrote his opinion on Hindustani page which got removed by the admin as it was false information but the same thing when I added on caribbean Hindustani page, he reverted my changes. If writing opinion as a fact and that too without any source and also the source provided dont match with the information. | |||
:I had talk with the user and explained several times in the edit and on talk page as well. I have explained everything which I added with source unlike him. ] (]) 04:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Potential block evasion by IP 211.184.93.253 (old IP 58.235.154.8) == | |||
==Disruptive single-purpose account== | |||
{{atop|1=Blocks guaranteed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
The IP ] was banned on December 29, 2024 (6 month block duration) for disruptive editing. To be specific, they would write in a delay of a Starship launch by exactly one month, without any citations. | |||
They had been banned before (two month ban) for the same behaviour. | |||
] is a Romanian politician, and for some time, two single-purpose accounts have been persistently whitewashing his biography, for example by erasing mention of a conflict of interest investigation directed at him: first, ] and now ]. While the first was somewhat reasonable, the second has pointedly refused to collaborate. Her only comment, made a month ago, has been ], which starts out: "It seems stupid to me to 'discuss' with unidentified people. I prefer courageous people who display their first and last name. It seems stupid to use English in this typically Romanian situation..." Clearly, we are not dealing with someone willing to discuss relevant issues, and appropriate measures should be considered. - ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 14:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: ], what measures do you think would be appropriate? What kind of action are you looking for? Are these recent edits or just one month ago? <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::This user should clearly be indef-blocked per ].--] (]) 22:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::: Maybe. I've left him/her a message on the his/her talk page explaining that some of their objections are unwarranted. I'm inclined to agree with their request to update the infobox to make it more clear what Hellvig's current political office is (they requested this in Romanian on their talk page). On the other hand, the somewhat underhanded removal of the ] (ANI) controversy is problematic. If my google-fu is finding the right person, Popescu Ionica appears to be someone with political connections to Hellvig, although it could be just a name coincidence... ] (]) 19:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::: Specifically, what she complained about was the non-inclusion in the infobox of the fact that Hellvig was, for about nine months, vice president of the Chamber of Deputies. That position is a) shared between four people b) rotates rather frequently c) is appointed by party leaders as opposed to undergoing an individual vote. (The 12-member leadership team is given an up-or-down vote.) According to ], the infobox is there in order to "summarize key facts in the article in which it appears". This position doesn't seem that key, although I suppose I could reach a compromise if Popescu ionica would actually engage in discussion. (Of course, it ''is'' an important enough post to be mentioned in the body of the article, and I certainly mentioned it there.) | |||
:::: As to who this individual is, yes, . On the other hand, Popescu is the most common Romanian surname, so maybe not. - ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 13:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
A few examples that I sourced in my : | |||
== Edit warring by ] in ] == | |||
IP ] is now repeating this pattern, in what appears to be block-evasion. | |||
I'm having trouble with an editor who is repeatedly adding badly referenced material to the ] article. | |||
Out of the five edits made by this IP: | |||
For example they're sourcing the paragraph simply to a webpage: | |||
Made before 58.235.154.8 ban, changed Flight 8 launch date from Early 2025 to February 2025. Doesn't add a source. | |||
http://www.headlice.org/faq/treatments/alternatives.htm | |||
Delays ] on ] from February 2025 to March 2025. No source added. | |||
My position is that that webpage is not a ] source for Misplaced Pages, it's not peer-reviewed or published, and the paragraph is unsupported by any other reliable sources. The webpage is not produced by any recognised health authority like NIH, WHO etc. and cannot be relied upon to be accurate. As with any material in Misplaced Pages, unreferenced material can be removed at any time. | |||
Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added. | |||
I've tried sorting it out with them on the talk page, but I'm getting no luck; and I'm getting pretty frustrated. | |||
Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches, again from February to March. No source added. | |||
He's removing reliably sourced material from the lead things like: and misquoting the spirit and substance and reliability of sources (he quoted three words out of a 42 page document which was issued by the EU which permitted tea tree oil to be used and then misquoted it to make it seem like tea tree oil use WOULD cause "considerable systemic exposure" whereas the actual source gave a worst case use and then pointed out that they didn't know how much exposure would occur. | |||
Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added. | |||
Overall, it seems to me that ] is consistently using out of date and non reliable sources to support and advance his position that tea tree oil should not be used. | |||
This is either a similarly disruptive editor, or more likely, a ban evader continuing their vandalism. Either way, they are ]. ] (]) 19:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I don't have a problem with that, if that's what the research says, but having read a lot of it, it doesn't seem to. | |||
:Additionally, geolocate places both IP addresses in the same region, which makes it quite likely that they are evading a ban. | |||
I think I would like him to be topic blocked from this article at this stage, other editors seem able to do balanced editing, but I can't get through to him that his editing is deceptive and not in line with Misplaced Pages's purposes, which is simply to lay out the facts about something rather than opinions.] (]) 14:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: | |||
:The page in question at headlice.org is not simply a random webpage. That site is (despite its rather 1998-vintage look) the official site of the National Pediculosis Association, and so a reliable source for the Association's views (as cited by numerous scholarly sources, such as we are using). In the last several days I have been one of three editors restoring this content against ]'s continued deletions of it – so the charge of edit warring is decidedly rum. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 15:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: ] (]) 19:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. ] (]) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::] ] (]) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Thanks! ] (]) 23:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) (added after discussion close) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== Danny5784 == | |||
::If it's mentioned from a reliable source, this is the first time he's mentioned it including when I bought it up on the talk page. Looking at the website, I still do not consider it to be a reliable source ''for tea tree oil safety,'' or for Misplaced Pages, and note that alexbrn has a history of what may best be described as ''marginal precis,'' so even if it's been mentioned by '''a''' reliable source that doesn't mean a whole lot, it doesn't mean it's true, the website hasn't been published or peer reviewed, doesn't quote any sources or research.] (]) 15:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{userlinks|Danny5784}} does not seem to have the maturity and judgement to be a productive editor. Despite ] and efforts by multiple editors to explain things to them, they are continuing to create unneeded pages. Of the 18 articles they've created, 9 have been redirected (mostly at AfD), 2 deleted, and 4 currently have unanimous delete/redirect consensus at AfD. Three of their most recent creations are particularly noteworthy: | |||
:::Teapeat — a would have shown you that the views of National Pediculosis Association are completely integrated into the scholarship around pediculosis. The fact that for half your reverts you confused pediculosis with "pedicurist", that you apparently haven't performed even a cursory check before repeatedly deleting content, and that your seem to be fuelled entirely by an assumption of bad faith, is not helping us advance this article from where it was (essentially a misleading advert for Tea tree oil's miraculous health benefits), into where it needs to be (something where biomedical content is well-sourced per ]). ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 15:52, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* After ] was declined by {{u|Stuartyeates}}, and I ] that such pages are not notable, Danny5784 ]. | |||
* Danny5784 created ] with poor sourcing, much of it from a user-generated wiki. After {{u|Djflem}} wrangled it into a useful list, Danny5784 created both ] and ] apparently as ]. | |||
Danny5784 also has issues with copyright: they uploaded a large number of now-deleted files on Commons and ], then did ] here, plus using blatantly false non-free content criteria. | |||
With 460 edits over 15 months, Danny5784 is past the point where these can just be dismissed as newbie mistakes. They are a ] editor who is unwilling or unable to follow basic norms such as notability, reliable sourcing, and copyright. Until they demonstrate more maturity, I believe a prohibition from page creation (article, template, and file upload) is needed. ] (]) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::A five minute perusal of the Talk page will show the folly of this complaint. The National Pediculosis link was noted and explained by Alex on the talk page too. --] (]) 15:48, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
<!--{{hat|1=A wild ] appears. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}}--> | |||
:Incorrect and no. No prohibition is necessary. You would need to teach and show him how it is done. | |||
:Don't even try to prohibit him. Over 15 months of editing, you still don't even accept it?! What is wrong with you? Your more stricter than ] so, knock it off and NO PROBITION! And also, he's trying his best to do it right. ] (]) 23:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. ] (]) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. ] (]/]) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear {{confirmed}} result.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. ] (]) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::{{ping|Liz}} I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<!--{{hab}}--> | |||
:::::::No problem, ever, with unarchiving, ]. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I just try to help run a clean ship. And no worries! As far as I can tell the template's working, but will leave this unhatted given that. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:26, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::As the editor who declined the article above at AfC, I'd encourage admins to shepherd young newbies towards AfC and similar venues. It's what we're hear for (if anything I should have given better comments in my decline). ] (]) 08:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::While 'Pediculosis' sounds official it is simply a website written by people who treat headlice for a living. They have no medical qualifications at all, nor is their website peer reviewed. | |||
:Clerical note that this user is not the ] DannyS712. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== User LivinAWestLife vandalizing Republican Party article == | |||
::::To the very best of my knowledge there's never been a single case of liver damage in humans from tea tree oil, not even from people that (very unwisely) drank it. I think if there had been one, it would likely have been written up in a medical journal, but I have never found one or heard of one. | |||
{{u|LivinAWestLife}} made a large change to the Republican Party article which changed the ideology of the party from the consensus Center-right to fascist. They quickly then changed the text to "far-right" . Any seasoned editor should know such behavior is beyond reckless and clearly disruptive. ] (]) 00:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::In the meantime this website does not meet the WP:RELIABLE criteria.] (]) 16:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back. ] (]) 00:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Well, other editors disagree with you and your wholesale deletions of this content (though I think there is scope to prune it - you are convincing me the liver bit should come out for example). The way to solve this content dispute is by reasoned discussion on the talk page, not by repeatedly deleting the content with abrasive edit summaries, starting a splenetic thread on ] trying to get an "opposing" editor (me) blocked, or by hurling insults and aspersions around on the Talk page, as you have been doing. This noticeboard is not a forum for solving content disputes. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 16:47, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Vandalism is vandalism and is ''not'' funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a ''very'' low tolerance for trolls, ''especially'' in contentious topics. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Also worth noting that ]. Regards, ]. (] | ]). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::There are several people who feel the current discussion of political ideology of the Republican party is non-neutral. Disruptive drive-by edits actually make correcting such problems harder rather than easier. So please stop. ] (]) 12:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::There was over half an hour in which the edits in question were live before they were reverted by a third party so "minutes at most" doesn't seem very applicable. If you ''really'' have a primal urge to vandalize an article, there is a correct way to do so without disrupting the wiki - see ]. ] (]) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Extremely unbecoming to do something like this during a major political transition. This causes thousands of people to further distrust Misplaced Pages. It could even be outright dangerous. Even more ridiculous to hide behind humor. I'm not anyone important but I want to convey to you directly how outrageous I find this to be. ] (]) 02:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Couldn't you have just used inspect element? ] (]) 02:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::You're taking a ''very'' long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. ] (]) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «''Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back''» and there are no consequences? ] (]) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::If there's no further disruption and they've recognized what they did was wrong and committed to not do it again then a trout is likely sufficient. Of course if there's further disruption that would be a different matter entirely. ] (]) 16:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::They've gotten a level four vandalism warning and are now put at the end of their ]. In my opinion, everything is in order here. Per above, disruption either won't continue, and if it does, further sanctions will follow. ] (]) 16:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Per the idea that blocks etc should be preventative not punitive, I agree that no further action seems like the correct option. Certainly LivinAWestLife is/should be clearly aware that their actions were not acceptable and I agree that they slid to the end of the rope. However, absent additional actions like this we are probably done. ] (]) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Editor repeatedly reverting edits == | |||
Maybe the best solution is to get a third opinion. Can you take this debate to ] and see if there is consensus there on using this source? That seems to be the main sticking point here. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 20:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{Userlinks|Cambial_Yellowing}} | |||
This editor is starting ] again, just reverted , and has done this before with these edits and , repeatedly.! | |||
*I'm not going to take on this issue, which is basically a content dispute, but I have to post my agreement that ] is inappropriately confrontational and aggressive at ]. They massively assume bad faith, specifically of Alexbrn, an experienced and as far as I know highly respectable editor. Examples: (nice edit summary, too), . There's more. I don't often suggest such things, but Teapeat might actually benefit from a reading of ] and ]. ] | ] 13:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
I tried to communicate on ] but editor just went away! | |||
For such behavior the editor has been | |||
This editor last time also pushed me to violate ] , | |||
== ] and ] == | |||
While i was trying to improve the ] article by moving criticism out of the theology section to separate criticism section, as per | |||
] where it is clearly mentioned | |||
"''In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title, for example, if there is a large body of critical material, and if independent secondary sources comment, analyze or discuss the critical material.''" | |||
I swore I'd never stick my head into AN/I, but here goes. | |||
Because, before this, i was reading similar article, ] and the criticism section make it easy to understand. | |||
There was a bit of a spat over ]; ] cannot abide any revision of the page that says he was gay, in spite of reliable sources so describing him. (He's dead, so there's no BLP issue). I've tried various methods of dispute resolution (DRN, not 3O because more than two editors were involved) concluding with an RFC (in which ] did not participate, although they had participated earlier on the talk page), which was fairly inconclusive but after which I tried to produce a wording which reflected the discussion rather than my own personal view. ("Outed after his death", in my view, leaves some doubt about something the sources don't actually question). | |||
I don't know why the editor doesn't understand ] and ] are not the same thing, which is common sense, but I was punished for using my common sense before, and now this again! ] (]) 02:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Bang, revert, no discussion. I took this to "Requests for closure", but was told nothing but to invoke 3RR if he keeps reverting (which seems unhelpful because I could only do so by edit warring myself). Essentially Lonchile's view seems to be based on synthesis; newspapers say Dalla was gay, but he doesn't trust them. | |||
:Hello, ], | |||
I feel that a good-faith effort to represent the results of the RFC should not be subject to arbitrary reversion by an editor who did not participate in the RFC. ] (]) 15:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:First ] is the noticeboard to report edit-warring, secondly, you haven't provided any diffs of edit warring and, first and foremost, no one can "push" you to violate our guidelines on edit-warring, take responsibility for your own mistakes. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Also, ANI should be where you come when other methods of communication have failed. Have you started a discussion on the article talk page or posted to their user talk page about your differences? Give it a shot before coming to ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Sorry@] actually before this, i went on your to discuss and waited for days, and about previous revertes i have provided . ] (]) 02:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's '''your''' action, not theirs. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::They are the one who started removing/reverting repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are . Plese see ] edit history. ] (]) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::It's good you have accepted that mistake, but you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen again, no matter what another editor "starts". ] is a bright line. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Yes, Sokoreq, that was my fault, I'm behind responding to talk page messages, I apologize for that. But I didn't mean that you should post a template on Cambial Yellowing's user talk page that was more suitable for a new editor (and they have been editing for over 5 years), I meant actually talking through a discussion. I can see that another editor already posted on their User talk page about the article talk page, you could have joined that discussion or posted on the article talk page. Again, my apologies about my lack of responsiveness. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::They edit in group, while i started a discussion but then first editor didn't explanation much and went for a week, again today I tried on ] but didn't receive any reply, I apologize for any inconvenience but this is very new for me. ] (]) 02:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I respect they are senior editors, but I don't understand what they are upto and there is some discussion on the ] for months is hard to understand. The talk page is messy; it's difficult to understand who is who and what is what? ] (]) 02:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:] is related to this. Sokoreq's response to being reverted was to baselessly accuse an editor of COI and harassment . When someone else reverted them they too were accused of harassment . After the COIN discussion didn't go their way, they continued to double down on COI accusations: . This latest report is more of the same. Despite being directed there numerous times by several editors, they still have not posted on the article's associated talk page - ever. I suggest that a ] sanction is appropriate here. - ] (]) 03:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:*"Lucio Dalla was presumed to be homosexual, although he never publicly acknowledged this fact,..." | |||
::? <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue">''']'''</span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue">]</span> 03:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:The "facts", according to the one source (BBC) is that Dalla didn't self-identify as gay but his "companion" spoke at his memorial service. ] states: | |||
::@] Yeh, I went to the ] noticeboard a week ago. It's closed now, because I didn't have evidence to prove. and the editor was also repeatedly reverting without explanation and suddenly went for a week. I have discussed the matter with that editor on my . What do you want to prove through this? ] (]) 03:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
<blockquote>"Categories regarding sexual orientation of a living person should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question (see WP:BLPCAT). For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate."</blockquote> | |||
*Sokoreq, that article talk page is quite an immense discussion on one specific aspect of the article that has nothing to do with your interests so I'd just start a new discussion there. I also see that you just removed a discussion on your user talk page with ] from your own talk page and asked them not to post on it any longer. You will not get very far on a collaborative editing project if you refust to actually communicate with editors you have disagreements with. Actual discussion, with opinions, arguments, diffs and sources with other editors is how consensus is formed on this project. But you can't seek to eliminate every editor you disagree with or you will not be editing here for a long time. It can be challenging but every editor on this project has to find a way to work with editors who have differences with and that is usually accomplished, not through coming to a noticeboard but by presenting a solid argument on an article talk page and convincing other editors that your position is stronger. But ANI doesn't exist to get rid of other editors who revert you. If edit-warring is an actual problem, which doesn't seem to be the case here, then post a formal case at ]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Unless their is authoritative proof (like an interview with a romantic partner, a well-researched biography, a memoir that is later published, etc.). I think this statement is as about as authoritative as the article can be without additional sources to verify his orientation. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 21:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I read over ] discussion and I haven't said anything to you that you weren't already told at COIN. What is your resistance to having a discussion on the article talk page? That should be your first destination when you have a disagreement, not ANI. Now, I'm going to stop because I'm just repeating advice that you've already been given. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Liz, this is really helpful. I hope they will communicate.! Thank you for creating space on the discussion page. I will keep this in mind for next time. And for formal cases, I will post on ]. Thanks again ] (]) 04:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Usually, when an editor returns to their edit war after being blocked, without once contributing to the article talk page discussions, they are blocked. | |||
::I think that's mistaken for several reasons. Firstly, "presumed to be homosexual" is precisely what sources don't say; there is no source indicating he was so presumed during his life. As far as the sources say, his closeting seems to have been a secret between him, his boyfriend, and his confessor. | |||
I think a good case can be made for Sokoreq is ] , those diffs () show an inability to work with others and take accountability for their own actions. The subsequent ], ] and and the behavior that led to this discussion show that it's unlikely to end without further intervention. --] (]) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Secondly, ] deals with categories. The disputed edit does not add or remove categories from the article. (Of course, you might reasonably contend that it is a good guideline to other editing). | |||
:I don't know what you're up to, but , I was just trying to understand your disagreements. But, you went away for days. I don’t have anything personal against you now, and I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above. I will discuss any future disagreements on the article's talk page. Thanks ] (]) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Thirdly, the Malta Times article is quite unequivocal on the subject (which, ahem, synthesis, but is very telling given its undercurrent of homophobia). http://www.lastampa.it/2012/03/06/spettacoli/dalla-confesso-non-mi-sento-omosessuale-Zmn5sHg5uUz1hJpzkyvpqI/pagina.html is another article which, if I'm not very much mistaken, does not dispute the fact for an instant. Neither does http://societa.panorama.it/Lucio-Dalla-gay-ma-quale-ipocrisia-Era-solo-una-persona-riservata-parola-di-Alfonso-Signorini. (ETA: and http://bologna.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/03/05/news/dalla_dom_chessa-30986032/ ). I think it is quite clear that there is a "verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate". I haven't added these to the article because an edit I made reflecting what they say would simply be reverted without discussion, and... | |||
::{{tq| I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above}} That's not what you did, and that's disruptive. --] (]) 00:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::], can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::There doesn't appear to be any olive branch being offered. The comments from Sokoreq, here and elsewhere, have me wondering if {{they are|Sokoreq}} using an AI or auto-translator to communicate with us. I see very little understand of what's being written, less still of actual policy, all while downplaying or ignoring, often misrepresenting, {{their|Sokoreq}} own behavior. --] (]) 02:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Trolling at ] == | |||
::Fourthly, I'm not trying to revisit the content dispute; that's not what AN/I is for. I'm trying to say that I think it is unreasonable for an editor who ignored the RFC discussion to revert a good-faith attempt to reflect it. ] (]) 21:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{atop|1=Done (for now). - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
*{{IPvandal|2600:1700:9366:e040:506c:d71c:7e0b:3528}} | |||
] please. ] ] 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:]? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 17:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::No response there; strictly speaking it might not be the most obvious vandalism in any case.--] ] 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I have requested protection for the talk page. I'll see how it goes. I have suspicion of meatpuppetry/canvassing from 4chan. ] (]) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Semi-protected now, thanks ] ] (]) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* IP blocked and page protected for a short period. I'm guessing this first month we will see a lot of these types of editors. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
**{{ping|Isabelle Belato|Acroterion}} Needs talk page access yanked too.--] ] 18:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
**:Done. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== Meatpuppetry/tag teaming at Conor Benn == | |||
::: So what do I do? I can't get anywhere with the content dispute mechanisms because I just get reverted with no discussion. And apparently I can't get anywhere here, either. ] (]) 13:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{atop|1=Resolved. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
*{{articlelinks|Conor Benn}} | |||
], so bringing this here. ] and I engaged in an edit war at ], which began as a content dispute but is now more of conduct issue. Less than 12 hours after he was blocked (for ), ] shows up as a brand new single-purpose account to make the for the "win", whilst predictably . How is this not ]? | |||
I'd be happy to hash out the original content dispute at ] and see if anything needs tweaking at ], but not when there's obvious bad faith tag teaming going on. ] (]) 19:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== User:Cau7ion POV editing and insults == | |||
:It's an LTA trying to cause trouble. Blocked now.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? ] (]) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I've restored it to the pre-socking version and {{U|Daniel Case}} has semi-protected the article.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Appreciated. Discussion at the Project forthcoming. ] (]) 20:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== Potential Block Evasion by IP 47.67.231.5 (Original IP range 47.69.0.0, first sock IP 80.187.75.118) == | |||
] is engaged in POV editing of ] and insults to me. He does not understand or care about the rules of Misplaced Pages that I furnished to him:], ], ], ], ]. He just repeats that he could provide sources, but does not do so. The changes he makes to this cited article are based, as he says, on what he believes to be right regarding his questions on the 'legitimate whiteness' of White Hispanic Americans and other such assertions; he does not provide reference citations for the content changes he makes in the article. In an edit summary reverting his edits, I pointed out his changes were 'made without a discussion resulting in an agreement on these changes'; his response in an edit summary was 'that has to be the most idiotic reason for editing my changes'. In the ] where I pointed out the rules WP editors must follow, his response started out with 'you must be an illiterate fool son'. Perhaps an administrator can help here as I am uninterested such dialog; my only interest is in content based on reliable cited sources. ] (]) 00:54, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
An ] is behaving similary to an ] blocked by last November. The orignal block was later extended due to ]. | |||
There was no biased editing for White Americans. | |||
The location of these IP addresses are all quite similar, which I have attached below. | |||
I fixed grammatical errors and used the non-Hispanic white population as a reference (63.7%, etc) and that's an official number from the Census regarding the non-Hispanic white population and actual white population used by most sources and even the census. | |||
I did not delete the ''White Hispanic'' reference from the ] article but did not use their percentage and number for the overall white population because they get a separate category from Europeans, Middle Easterners, and North Africans for their number and percentage. There is subliminal connotations about their legitimate whiteness regarding their ancestry -- hence the reason they get a separate category on the census. | |||
See: social definition on the White Americans article. | |||
] (]) 22:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Using the non-Hispanic white population on the page is not POV editing, but using an actual percentage reported by the census and used by most sources. | |||
:EDIT: The IP is now <s>banned</s> blocked, with the original IP's <s>ban</s> block extended by another three months. ] (]) 23:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I already elaborated on my edits in the talk section on the ] page regarding Hispanics. | |||
::<small>] - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
:::Thank you for the correction on my wording. ] (]) 23:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Harassment and personal attacks == | |||
This also appears to come off as more of a content dispute than a legitimate problem. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:44, 14 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
{{u|Riventree}} called another editor and myself a , said to the editor who approved the DYK, and called me an . ] (]) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
- ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 06:37, 14 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:Indef'd. Completely unacceptable behavior. ] (]/]) 23:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::this editor Cau7ion does not seem to care about[REDACTED] policy, on other pages the POV pushing and edit warring are also going on.learn to use talk page and wait for that process. action must be taken if he/she does not stop.--] (]) 07:52, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but ''indef'' for a user who ''has'', generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked ''once''? ] (]) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. ] (]/]) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::It did. And 'indefinite' is not 'infinite'; once they acknowledge their error, the block can be lifted, but not before. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Agreed. I would further posit that a user who has been around for fifteen years really ought to know not go on the attack like this. There are ways to discuss content you don't agree with, there was no need for the blown gasket here. I edit conflicted with the above I also was going to add that Indefinite does not mean infinite, they can request an unblock as soon as right now. ] ] 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. ] (]) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this: {{tq|'twas a crime of passion (politics got the better of me)- I really would hate for Misplaced Pages to get drawn into the petty politics of the USA)}}. Since when was a DYK about feminism about petty American politics? I don't usually deal with unblock requests so I'll leave this for another admin, but I don't think they entirely understand why their behaviour is considered problematic. ] ] 01:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::It looks to me like they understand ''what'' they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the ''why'' (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I tried to see if I could convince them to understand and apologize for it, and I'm confused about why a long-time editor would go off the rails about feminism or politics. It wasn't fruitful. I wish you admins good luck. ] (]) 02:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Per our own internal classification (e.g. ]/]) it is formally a ], and the article ] is in the {{tl|political ideologies}} navbox. While it might initially seem confusing that a thing called "feminism" could be a political subject, it has been one for about the last century (e.g. suffrage is a central aspect of politics, and civil rights for women in the United States were often pursued through legislation and jurisprudence). Moreover, many issues that do not directly involve the apparatus of government are often referred to as "political" if they are the center of substantial cultural discourse or disagreement. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I have heard people use the phrase "track down" in colloquial speech for decades, and in the overwhelming majority of cases (when applied to a person) it means to get in contact with, or locate: | |||
::::::*"The machine in booth 7 is shorting out again, I'm going to see if I can track down the repairman." | |||
::::::*"Someone track down the QC inspector and tell her these parts are out of spec." | |||
::::::*"When we get into town, we should track down a food truck." | |||
::::::I am not really sure why these sentences would, ''prima facie'', constitute a violent threat. Perhaps if the speaker was loading a shotgun and wearing a blood-spattered "I HATE FOOD TRUCKS!" t-shirt -- but absent that, I would assume they just wanted a sandwich. In this case, I would assume the obvious straightforward meaning of the person's sentence -- that the person responsible should be admonished, or complained to, or sanctioned. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:So okay, I looked up the hook. Apparently, it was this: | |||
::... that the ''']''' of stories can focus on female characters to reflect the ] perspective? | |||
:From time to time we do have some DYK hooks that are controversial or edgy, so I was expecting something like that, but this is not that. | |||
:I must confess that not only does this DYK hook not offend me, I am not even sure what part of it (the DYK hook) someone else might find offensive (the DYK hook). The best I can come up with is that bro was having a really bad day and decided to randomly flip out at the first thing that he found mildly politically annoying. This is really not great behavior, and probably it warrants some warning or admonishment or block. However, if someone has been editing for sixteen years with no problem, I feel like this is not a sign of utter incompatibility with a collaborative editing project, and I am inclined to grant the unblock request, as they have explained pretty succinctly what the problem is and I am fairly convinced they will not do it again. On this same page, a few sections up (]), it seems like we have something of a recent precedent when someone is engaging in blatant personal attacks with regard to the topic of feminism: they are handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology, refuse to do so multiple times, and are only blocked when they go too far <del>and it is unrelatedly discovered that they are a sockpuppet</del>. Moreover, we can easily find many other instances of people doing and saying far worse stuff than this, dozens of times, and then all their buddies show up to glaze them at the ANI thread and they get a strong admonishment. I do think it's bad to flip out and call people idiots, but I don't think they need to be forever removed from the project. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 10:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::As a compromise between zero and infinity, reduced to two weeks. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::@] He very clearly did not explain or show why what he did was wrong, nor did he give an apology (which was halfhearted ay best) until prompted three times. ] (]/]) 13:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::TTYDDoopliss was blocked indefinitely for trolling by Canterbury Tail before being found put as a sock by spicy. ] (]) 11:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::Amended, thanks. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::{{ping|JPxG}} Did you discuss this with the original blocking admin beforehand? And I agree with voorts that they do not completely understand what they did was wrong. I don't think it's appropriate to change the blocking time without a consensus at this point. ] ] 13:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::No, he did not, and I agree that this unblock should not have happened. This attempt to downplay "editor X should be tracked down" by comparing it to tracking down spare parts is frankly bizarre. You shouldn't be unblocking people if you don't understand why saying that (even if not serious) can be extremely scary to that editor, who now might need to worry about a sociopath from the internet trying to hurt them. ] (]/]) 14:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Also RE the TTYD block JPxG should know that "what about X" isn't really a good argument on wiki. ] (]/]) 14:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::If you think I am lying (?) about this phrase being used in normal contexts, I will look it up in the dictionary. Here is what says: | |||
:::::{{tq|to search for someone or something, often when it is difficult to find that person or thing:}} | |||
:::::{{tq|''I’m trying to track down one of my old classmates from college.''}} | |||
:::: says: | |||
:::::{{tq|Follow successfully, locate, as in ''I've been trying to track down that book but haven't had any luck''. This term alludes to the literal use of track , “follow the footsteps of.” }} | |||
:::: says: | |||
:::::{{tq|If you track down someone or something, you find them, or find information about them, after a difficult or long search.}} | |||
:::::{{tq|''She had spent years trying to track down her parents.''}} | |||
:::::{{tq|''I'll go and have a quick word, then we'll track down Mr Derringer.''}} | |||
:::::{{tq|''The last time I had flown with him into the Sahara to track down hijacked weapons.''}} | |||
:::::{{tq|''There had been some spectacular busts in recent history, but even the FBI could not work fast enough to track down these people.''}} | |||
::::Do you think that "trying to track down her parents" implies that the person in the example sentence is a "sociopath" who is "trying to hurt them"? I agree that this was a very dumb choice of words, due to the potential for being misinterpreted, as can be seen above. Indeed, one of the examples (the last given) does imply hostility. I would not say this. I do not think that all of these dictionaries are engaged in a "frankly bizarre attempt to downplay" the phrase, nor do I think that is a fair summary of what I did. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I'm saying that I agree that there are other ways to read tracking someone down but it still wasn't appropriate to adjust blocking time without consensus. This was more than simply calling a person an idiot. They said {{tq|Get this politically divisive ] off the damned front page}} and {{tq|And: You're an idiot for approving political flamebait for the front page.}} Their unblock rationale is not good enough, in my opinion. Just because incivility isn't enforced enough as it should be isn't a reason to just not apply it all. Indefinite does mean infinite, but the editor in question should come up with a better unblock request instead of simply waiting out the two weeks and going back to editing like nothing happened. ] ] 14:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::I suppose you may be correct. Well, I am going to bed; if a bunch of people come up and say the guy is really that much of a menace that the block needs to be lengthened, I will not be around to do so. I will abide my general practice on administrative actions, which is that if someone is so convinced of my idiocy they feel the need to undo it, then sure, I guess. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::I don't think you're lying, just a bit naïve. If someone says {{tq|"Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page! And then track down the editor who put it there."}} on the internet to a stranger, the common sense interpretation is that it is a threat of violence. Your examples of other uses of the wording are all well and good when discussing in-person, normal interactions. But the pseudonymity of social media emboldens the craven. Threats of violence come easier to the keyboard fingers when the perpetrator is safely out of reach. ] (]) 14:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Well, when confronted, he said that it was not meant to suggest anything be done to the person: {{tq|I mentioned no one by name,and suggested no action. Therefore neither puposefully OR blantantly nor would that constitute harrassment.}} This seems pretty straightforward to me, although I get that people want the guy gone, so do what you want. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==== Proposal: commute block to topic ban ==== | |||
::I'd say that some diffs be provided to show this behaviour. ] (]) 09:25, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Self-explanatory, I think. Riventree's outburst, and the follow up discussion on their talk page, show that they hold views incompatible with neutral editing about this topic. Furthermore there clearly was not consensus to unblock (the blocking administrator ]) and JPxG's ] action should not stand, but a ] isn't going to help anyone. A topic ban from AP2, gender-related controversies, and/or feminism as a broad topic, would serve to prevent future disruption in these sensitive topics; meanwhile Riventree can appeal the sanction later once they've taken time to reflect on their behaviour here. | |||
*'''Support''' as proposer; interested in further comments on the scope of a topic ban. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 15:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*Lengthen the block if you want. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* They've made a total of 135 edits since the beginning of 2022, 17 of which have been in the last 24 hours. I'm not sure how much a topic ban really matters. Never the less, I'd support a topic ban as a bare minimum, especially considering their follow up edits to ] ({{diff2|1270933193|1}}, {{diff2|1270933653|2}}. ] (]) 18:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:I don't think a topic ban is needed. This editor has never edited in that area before and I presume will not after this debace. I would like tue indef to be reimposed until we actually get a sufficient unblock request. ] (]/]) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*::Considering this is such an old account and the bad edits are all recent, is it possible we're dealing with a compromised account situation? ] ] 19:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*:::Problematic edits in the AMPOL area and with other users aren't recent. Never say never, but judging from some of their older edits: | |||
*:::*: unsourced switching of the language from "break free" to "resisted arrest" in the ]. (Followup conversation at Eeng's talkage, wher they justified the change as original research ; note that at the time, the BLP policy still applied to Brooks so accusing him of a crime without a source is a major no-no) | |||
*:::* Removed the fact that the counterfeit bill Floyd was accused of having was a $20 bill with the edit summary "Exclude trivia" in ]. | |||
*:::*: Changed "it is widely believed that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" "it feared that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" with the edit summary "Forgive me, I abhor emotion-laden politics, but this is actually relevant here" - note how it is very similar to the language and tone they used at DYK yesterday | |||
*:::*] shows the same pattern of coming in very strong with personal attacks and aspersions, then backing down and apologizing a while later. | |||
*:::**Similarly on other talk pages {{tq|Did you just revert it because you hate change, or was there some actual reason?}} | |||
*:::*] and some attempting to desribe the Holocene Extinction as "theoretical", something something "the knee-jerk alarmists who were happy to simply assert human causation as the cause of an eco-disaster". | |||
*:::* Tried to make the article ] more neutral by adding an unsourced paragraph called "The Argument Over 'Scripting'". When questioned on the taklk, they justified this by saying {{tq|UM, no. It's just deduction. It's certainly not 'military propaganda', because the neutrality flag pointed out that the military perspective (not side, not propaganda) wasn't included at all.}} ]. | |||
*:::Additionally, and I find this especially relevant given @]'s concerns about a double standard because they weren't "handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology", they were given a final warning for harrassment and personal attacks by Yunshui in 2020.. Follow up here:, though I obvious do not know the severity of what Riventree did, given that it apparently needed revdel. Can any admin give insight? ] (]) 20:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' Whether the account is compromised or not I don't think we want to have an editor who responds this way to something as bromine as the idea of the feminist retelling editing in the various contentious topics that this overlaps. I'd want to see such a TBan encompassing at least ] broadly construed. As for AP2 I'm a bit worried of the tendency of Americans to turn every social issue into a domestic political issue, especially immediately following a governmental transition but AP2 needs fewer hot-heads, not more, so I'd be weakly supportive of that one too. ] (]) 19:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*I do not think that a topic ban is the solution to this problem. The colloquial phrase "track down" can certainly be used benignly as the various quotes above show, but context is all-important. In this case, as it was actually used in the context of the rage filled rant, I read it as either a threat of outing (most likely) or a threat of violence (distinctly possible). In my opinion, this editor needs to show a deeper understanding of why what they said was intimidating and totally wrong. ] (]) 20:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
==== Proposal: Reinstate indef ==== | |||
Lol at Inayity talking about biased editing when his information on the ] page isn't even from a legitimate source (deemed that by another editor by the way) and in the talk page I have already provided a source that shows how his information is false. | |||
A discussion is needed on this to prevent ] from applying. Proposal is pretty much the title, reinstate indef until a more convincing unblock rationale is made. | |||
* '''Support''' as proposer. ] ] 19:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' with the conditional modifier that I would like to see the tban discussed in the proposal above remain in effect should they subsequently become unblocked. ] (]) 19:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' reinstating indef, '''support''' gensex/ap2 topic ban. If they can't handle that, then indef. --] 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
* '''Support''' It shouldn't have been lifted in the first place. ] (]/]) 20:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per {{u|Voorts}} and the long pattern of sub-optimal behavior and previous warnings as documented by {{u|GreenLipstickLesbian}}. GLL, as for the revision deleted content, in the process of mocking an editor they disagreed with, this editor linked to another website that criticized the mocked editor and outed a third editor. It was ugly in general but linking to the outing was what led to the revdel. ] (]) 21:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' given the history—particularly the outing, which correlates with the “track down” comment in the current case. — ] ] 21:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Anonymous8206 == | |||
See: legacy. | |||
{{atop|1=Editor using Misplaced Pages as a social network blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Anonymous8206}} | |||
Disruptive (soapbox, forum) and personal attacks at ] for over a year. Examples: . | |||
They have been warned on their talk page multiple times for this, e.g.: ] (]) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
He put up information from an illegitimate source, made up information that isn't even in the improper source too, and says I don't care about Misplaced Pages policy? | |||
:] policy applies to every living person, even Donald Trump. I think a topic ban from all things Trump, broadly construed, is called for here. ] (]) 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Another example of using talk pages as a forum on an unrelated topic: ]. <s>I think a final warning rather than a TBAN would be appropriate.</s> ] (]/]) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I've indef'd this user as not here. Per X-tools, 152/182 edits (83.5%) are in talkspace, 105 are to ] in particular, and 3 are to mainspace. Apart from the problematic Trump edits, most of this user's other edits appear to be similar forumy posts or musings on random talk pages. ] (]/]) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
==Two editors edit warring and attacking others while whitewashing fascism of an individual== | |||
Hilarity at its finest. | |||
As the title suggests, this includes: | |||
As for Hmains, he was mad for me disagreeing with his changes on the ] page in a feisty-esque way. | |||
*{{userlinks|SuvGh}} | |||
I already provided sources regarding the non-Hispanic white population too. | |||
::Making personal attacks such as "Enough of explaining r@cist Brits what to do", "you're probably an ignorant British man", and has tried to remove relevant content about 4 times now. | |||
*{{userlinks|Camarada internacionalista}} | |||
How much more do you want me to provide? | |||
::Has tried to remove the reliably sourced content 3 times, and used rude editor summaries like "disgusting argument". Has no activity on talk page or anywhere else to address his edits. See ]. | |||
Both of them were sufficiently warned. ] (]) 02:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/all-states/white-not-hispanic-population-percentage#map | |||
:Blocked SuvGh for 24 hours for personal attacks in edit summaries and violating 3RR in spirit if not in letter (slightly over 24 hours for four reverts but blatant edit-warring). Camarada internatcionalista hasn't breached 3RR but is edit-warring, I'll let another admin decide if they need a block as they aren't ''currently'' editing it appears. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::That talk page section they made should have been removed for being a ] attempt to disparage sources on grounds of national origin. ] (]) 03:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Camarada internacionalista has made 2 more reverts now. ] (]) 05:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
I have blocked both editors indefinitely. ] <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">[]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 05:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== 2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 - personal attacks == | |||
http://www.forbes.com/sites/trulia/2012/11/13/finding-diversity-in-america/ | |||
{{user|2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64}} I saw an IP making an ] on one user (telling them to resign for being "worthless"), and ]. I think that the /64 edits from a few days ago on the Denali situation are enough to say that they're the same user on the IP, given the political nature. I'm almost certain they're abusing a larger range than this, as zooming out to the /42 shows more political badgering. A previous /64 in that range was blocked as well for similar reasons. ] (]) 04:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
There is two more, just for you. | |||
:I blocked. ♫ ] (<small>]</small>) 04:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Just for the one IP, though - the range is unblocked, looks like. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks. I was sleeping, but good to see action being taken. :) ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 13:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Incivility and edit-warring == | |||
Someone who isn't registered edited the page earlier today, so I had to revert it back. | |||
{{atop|After being explained by Wiznut at 1.00am UTC today about how even discussing through edit summaries while reverting in good faith is edit warring, Thelittlefaerie has opened a discussion on the article talk and stopped edit warring. Additionally, they are now aware that making personal attacks is prohibited and have issued an apology to editors they attacked while in a heated argument. As a talk discussion is now open for content issues, and this user now seems aware about how we resolve disputes here on Misplaced Pages, I am closing this section with no prejudice to it being re-opened should subpar behaviour recur. I think a little ] is justified here as they are a new editor, who now knows about the dispute resolution processes and is now engaging collaboratively. ] <sup>]]</sup> 06:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
This is concerning user ] (] and ]). A new user, who initially made several good faith mistakes related to providing sources and not using original research. However, he also decided that the Afghanistan population at ] needed to be correct. A history of the edit war, which involved Thelittlefaerie vs three other editors (including me): | |||
Users involved: | |||
Apparently me pointing out false information on pages, changing this info to correct information, and rectifying grammar on these pages is violating Misplaced Pages's decree? | |||
{{Userlinks|Thelittlefaerie}} | |||
Lol, sure... | |||
{{Userlinks|Wizmut}} | |||
- ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 10:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
{{Userlinks|MIHAIL}} | |||
: I've certainly been vexed by ] re ], where I have actually checked the older print sources for the article myself and they manifestly have not. I do rather catch a whiff of an odious POV when someone starts to talk about "legitimate Whiteness"; all ]'s significant edits seem to be race-related. ] (]) 11:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{Userlinks|Magnolia677}} | |||
: You do realize, ], that a user doesn't need to be registered to edit Misplaced Pages? Being an IP account isn't grounds for a revert, reversions should be based on the content of an edit. | |||
: As for your conception of "legitimate whiteness", if you continue down that road, I see more visits to AN/I and maybe an RfC/U in your future. The U.S. census defines Hispanic heritage as an ethnicity, not a race so one can define oneself as a white Hispanic, a black Hispanic or a Native American Hispanic. Being Hispanic in itself doesn't negate someone's whiteness. Racial categories are socially constructed and have fuzzy boundaries...no Editor should put themselves in the position of judging who is "in" and who is "out", who is legitimate or authentic and who is not. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 11:23, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Dates: | |||
20 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie changes the figure without a source, which is reverted by me. For this article, unsourced changes happen regularly, so I did not take the effort to give Thelittlefaire much explanation. | |||
21 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie tries again, this time using a source, but an unreliable one. | |||
If someone wants to put a separate category for ''White Hispanic'' and ''non-White Hispanic'' under the total population percentage and number, then fine, I already said go ahead. | |||
22 Dec 2024 : I revert, mentioning the selection criteria for this article's sources. Thelittlefaerie reverts, and also reverts an unrelated change. I leave it, and instead start a topic on the ]. | |||
My other edits on the ] page was minor and regarding grammar mostly and a few other mishaps. | |||
26 Dec 2024 : User ] (] and ]) changes the figure back to an official source. (yes that government does use google drive links) | |||
Once again, 63.7% was not a false number, as for me asserting 50% of Hispanics in America aren't white and providing a source to prove that they are of mixed ancestry generally, how is that false? | |||
3 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie changes it back to his version, and in the edit summary he uses the phrase ''"This is your final straw."'' | |||
I've already had editors state that most of them are of mixed ancestry like I said and I didn't remove the ''White Hispanic'' reference from the article. | |||
7 Jan 2025 : MIHAIL changes it back. His edit summary in full: ''"why insist with UN or copies of UN when you have official data ?... i've seen Thelittlefaerie vandalize certain pages... the official matters, not fanaticism"''. In a vain attempt to help matters, I add a footnote to the Afghanistan entry detailing three different estimates. | |||
If you really think 50% of Hispanics in America are white, then sorry, your vision must be bad. | |||
16 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie again, this time including in his edit summary ''"And now you are acting like a complete fool. I am DONE WITH THIS. You are just a terrible person."'' and also ''"Either stop or I'll keep making edits."'' This edit was particularly troublesome, not only for the incivility, but because he reverted over a dozen unrelated edits. This was reverted by ]. | |||
I mean under the ] page it has a picture of ], smh, really? | |||
17 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie says he ''"could not reach out to you Magnolia677"'' (I can see no such attempt) and reverts again. This again reverts over a dozen unrelated changes, so I do the revert this time, and also try to warn Thelittlefaerie on the talk page and on his user page. | |||
Whatever, I don't think anything else needs to be said, except if someone wants to put the ''White Hispanic'' number and percentage under the total population number and in the paragraph, just keep the non-White Hispanic number and percentage there too. | |||
22 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie comes back and reverts, without affecting other entries and without incivility. After this, he finally posts on the talk page, with the argument: ''"I am putting the right source and this is the right version. Please do not change."'' | |||
I would also appreciate it if we're gonna put one for whites, then blacks and Asians need one too, only to make it fair. | |||
I would like help in responding to this user, who has exhausted my patience. | |||
- ] (]) 15:11, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
] (]) 04:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Magnolia's user talk page is extended confirmed protected, due to ]-related issues, so their story of trying to reach out to her but failing does check out. Both their behaviour and edit summaries are completely unacceptable, however. ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I'm dearchiving this as suggested above since it still seems to be a live issue. ] is now grinding their axe at ], where this diff https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans&action=historysubmit&diff=578265427&oldid=578261280 (and subsequent reverts) is so keen to expunge the Portugese that it simply misquotes the US government references in the lead. Surely this is not appropriate? | |||
::It does seem like this could have gone to ]. But since it is here now, I'd like to hear from ]. They don't edit every day so I'm not sure when they might show up. I think discussion would be more effective than a block as they could end up being blocked over days when they aren't even on Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
: Also, sigh, yes, twice in one afternoon. ] (]) 16:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Hello! '''Thelittlefaerie''' speaking. My final message be put in simple words, I necessarily don't think that the population of Afghanistan would be 35M which the google drive link states. There are many reasons supporting this. First of all, if you look at a number of sources showing the population of Afghanistan in 2006, it shows it as 31-32M. It has been 19 years since that official estimate (I believe) and I really don't think that the population of Afghanistan in the year of 2023-2025 would be 35M. Second of all, Afghanistan has one of the highest fertility rates in the world right now, which in response to the following reverts, do not relate or make sense. Thirdly and lastly, I have visited Afghanistan myself and is a full blooded Afghan and I can assure you there are way more than 35M people This leads me to believe that the USCB or UN estimates are more thoughtful. Thank you. ] (]) 05:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I don't think this is simply a content dispute for the reasons elucidated earlier with insufficient diffs, a brief selection of which: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans&diff=prev&oldid=573593935 (insulting edit summary) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=White_American&diff=prev&oldid=576814358 (ditto) https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AMusa_I_of_Mali&action=historysubmit&diff=577513532&oldid=577322885 (simple untruth about what I wrote, then describing false version as "semi-coherent"). They also persistently misuse the minor edit facility. ] (]) 17:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Hello, Thelittlefaerie! Thank you for raising these points. ANI is, however, for conduct issues, not content issues - we don't assess whether what you were trying to do is valid but analyse your behaviour including comments like "terrible person" and "complete fool". It is good to see that your more recent commons are becoming more civil and engaging with other editors in a collaborative manner, like and which afterwards you started a discussion on the article talk after an editor, Wiznut, informed you of how to do this. | |||
::::I think if you can apologise and agree to not make ] against other editors again, and refrain from ] (which it seems you have now learned about and stopped, by starting a Talk section and not continuing to discuss in edit summaries of subsequent reverts) and engage on the talk page section you started we should all be able to move forward civilly and collaboratively here. If this doesn't reach a consensus, you can seek ]. | |||
::::Thank you for your contributions trying to improve the article, I understand how frustrating some things can be as a newcomer and thank you for learning from your mistakes and working with us here! ] <sup>]]</sup> 05:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::In response, I apologize and agree to not make personal attacks on other people. I was frustrated, but that is not an excuse for me. Thank you for your cooperation. Also, we should update the page on Afghanistan too as that says it has 35M. | |||
:::::Thank you, | |||
:::::'''Thelittlefaerie''' ] (]) 06:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::Please ignore my latest message, I meant to send this to another talk page ] (]) 06:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::(I mean the Afghanistan page updating.) ] (]) 06:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
* '''Update''': Since the closure of this thread and after TFL found the talk page section and the two-way discussion began, MIHAL (already notified of this discussion above), using an edit summary containing personal attacks (they have been advised to apologise for these) reverted the changes by thelittlefaerie (made prior to joining the talk), which thelittlefaerie then reverted. Both users have now been informed by me that there is no "right version" for the article to be on while the talk page discussion occurs and so I think everyone is ready to collaborate and come up with a compromise, now understanding how talk discussions work, so this doesn't need to be reopened. Hopefully we can all find a solution together! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 21:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
== Swagsgod == | |||
{{atop|result={{NAC}} {{u|Swagsgod}} blocked and TPA revoked. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:12, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
Can ] please be swiftly blocked? They are constantly creating inappropriate pages. They are listed at AIV, but the stream of new pages continues quite rapidly. ] (]) 12:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Looking into it. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::Indeffed. Here is an example of the stuff they are spamming: | |||
::*{{tq| Multimedia Group is the largest independent commercial media and entertainment company in Ghana. Founded in 1995 by a Ghanaian entrepreneur, Mr. Kwame Appiah, the company has grown from humble beginnings with 12 employees to directly employing some 700 people across its 6 radio brands, 3 online assets and Ghana's first free multi channel television brand in over 25 years of operation. The Multimedia Group has been a major spur for the growth in the advertising, creative arts and entertainment industries, particularly the gospel music industry. The Multimedia Group Go For God}} | |||
::*{{tq|Certify your English anytime, anywhere Test online, no appointment needed Get results in 2 days A fraction of the cost of other tests}} | |||
::etc. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::I went through their contribs and deleted the spam pages (most of which had already been tagged properly by {{ping|Fram}}). Let me know if I have missed anything. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::Thanks. Their user page is extremely bizarre, but somehow gives the impression that they want to accuse the former president of Ghana of some "high criminal offense"? I guess deleting that one would be advisable (it certainly wouldn't lose anything of value). ] (]) 12:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::Gone. —] (]) 12:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::::What? You didn't believe that the user behind gibberish such as {{tq|Ordinary BBC at a temperature of unknown figures higher than the melting point of gallium, and 29" as you see Visualize Sunday,29Th October, 2025 Alarm 4:48pm UTC... from a Primark Bank Account which values an unregistered license sports cars in different variables used in Analysis}} was qualified to "Certify your English anytime"? ] (]) 12:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::::::They keep going on their talk page now, maybe yank TPA? ] (]) 13:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | |||
== IP Editor(s) continuously changing flags without source == | |||
: I already put a citation showing how the Portuguese are not Hispanic and who is. | |||
The following IP Editor(s) have been making continuous changes to the flags on the Islamic State of Iraq page without any sources to backup their claims, when the changes are reverted, they just go back and revert the revert and still provide no source, thus causing what I believe to be an unnecessary disruption. | |||
"Government references" | |||
], ], ] and ] ] (]) 14:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
It was one government reference and a government reference for one involving automobile-esque government issues -- here is one from the census. | |||
== 142.190.62.131 == | |||
http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf | |||
Long-term abuse possible proxy vandal operating out of Alabama, vandalism-only account. Almost all edits to their talk page before the three-year-block are warnings or include Huggle tags(see tak page hist). The reason I'm reporting this user on ANI instead of AVI, is because of the user continuing to vandalize Misplaced Pages after blocks that sometimes took years to expire, one time even two years, which might fall under chronic intractable behavioral problems. This user is currently blocked for 3 years after I already reported them at AVI, but will likely continue to vandalize Misplaced Pages again after the block. This user has been vandalizing Misplaced Pages since 2020. The IP is from Alabama and belongs to a company named "Southern Light, LLC". I don't know if the user is actually operating out of Alabama, or if they are using a proxy. I've seen multiple IPs from the "142" range that are vandalizing Misplaced Pages or contributing unconstructively, although I don't think they have much to do with this user. Their edits to the page "Athenian democracy" didn't get reverted for over two years. Three of their edits got deleted, including their first edit. ] (]) 15:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
" | |||
: IP addresses generally do not correlate to a person. In most cases, they are randomly assigned to a customer on that ], then cycle around to another random customer. If there's a long history of petty vandalism, it could potentially be a school, library, public transportation, or some other shared IP with lots of users. Every so often, I think, "I should write an intro to IP addresses", but the best I've come up with yet is ]. And while there are peer-to-peer proxies and VPNs all over the place, there's generally little reason for normal users get worried about them. ] (]) 16:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Definition of Hispanic or | |||
Latino Origin Used in the | |||
2010 Census | |||
“Hispanic or Latino” refers to | |||
a person of Cuban, Mexican, | |||
Puerto Rican, South or Central | |||
American, or other Spanish | |||
culture or origin regardless of | |||
race" | |||
== IP range edit warring on variety of Canadian politics articles == | |||
Notice how it does not include ''Portuguese'' in there, at all. | |||
The Portuguese are not "Spanish in culture or origin" so therefore they aren't Hispanic or Latino. | |||
I added a citation on the page showing how my edit is justified and there is other citations besides my recent addition showing how the Portuguese aren't Hispanic/Latino (like the one I just quoted that has been on the page) so my edit is clearly justified. | |||
An IP range user ({{vandal|2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321}}) has been adding contentious or poorly sourced material to a variety of articles related to Canadian politics (including ]s). I haven't been able to warn them as the IP changes frequently but did let them know why I reverted their additions. They've also been causing problems in other articles with unreliable sources or poor information . | |||
Two edits is not three by the way, you should know the rule. | |||
# | |||
Addendum: Pinkbeast has reverted my edits on various pages and complained about them on here multiple times despite the fact that I follow WP's decree and show explicitly how my edits are justified. | |||
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The user does not appear to be interested in building an encyclopedia productively. ] (]) 17:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Tried notifying them for what that's worth. ] (]) 17:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
He seems to have some odd dislike for me. | |||
== Abusive user == | |||
- ] (]) 17:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{atop|1=Valid vandalism revert of an edit that clearly looked like vandalism. That Shaggydan did not mean to vandalize is good, but it does not change the fact that any reasonable editor would have taken the edit as vandalism; editors are not expected to read minds. Shaggydan is advised that they have full responsibility for all edits made by their account, including those made by code they choose to run on their machine. I suggest they find something better to do than argue about this. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">[]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 17:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
*Caution, please restrain the urge to make one-sentence paragraphs. Write continuous prose. ] (]) 17:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Moved from the ]. Courtesy link: {{user|Opolito}}, filed by {{user|Shaggydan}}, moved by ] (]) 17:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
User Opolito is flagging users, including me, for vandalism when there is no vandalism. Who is able to restrict his account and remove his warnings and how do I bring this to their attention? ] (]) 15:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Sorry, I like to indent a lot. - ] (]) 17:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Except you're not indenting at all, and that makes the conversation absolutely impossible to follow. ''Please'' properly indent/thread your replies. Thank you. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 18:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:This is a matter for the ''']'''. Be sure to read the rules there before posting your situation. ] (]) 15:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:Two references (at least), actually; in both cases direct quotes from those references were altered to remove the word "Portugese", while still purporting to be direct quotes. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans&action=historysubmit&diff=578281865&oldid=578281733 (marked as minor edit) removes the word from references http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/hep/49cfr26.htm and http://www.sbaonline.sba.gov/sops/8005/sop8005-3.pdf - ] then removes one of those altogether and replaces it with a different reference in an edit https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans&action=historysubmit&diff=578283056&oldid=578281865 where the edit summary claims just to be adding a citation. | |||
:@]. User:Opolito has flagged you for vandalism for of yours. After he flagged you for vandalism on your talk page, you called him a swear word and then he flagged you for personal attack. And, it seems like the warnings he gives to other Users seem genuine. ] (]|]) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|Shaggydan}} - Let me caution you before bringing it to the notice board, your uncivil behavior such as will very likely also be scrutinized. Furthermore by looking at , I would suggest that it is very possible you will be the one facing sanctions. ] ] 15:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:I freely admit I do have an instinctive dislike for people who bang on about who is and isn't "legitimately white". You've got me there. ] (]) 18:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::{{ping|Shaggydan}} Do you have a browser extension which automatically changes "Trump" to "Drumpf"? It may not have been your intention to make this change in edits but it looks like vandalism. ] (]) 16:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
:::@] Thank you for being the first person to review my concern. As I mention on my Talk page, you are correct. As I mention there, I removed an extraneous word from early in the article. The only use of the word "Trump" occurs in a few titles in the reference section. I would have thought Misplaced Pages would not allow extensions to make edits. I was mistaken in my understanding of the security of the site's code. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. Opolito has acted in bad faith in this case and multiple others. Do you know how to invoke some supervision on his account? ] (]) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I removed the word "Portuguese" and other sections in those edits because I thought they were apart of the visible article (not quotations from a source) and it was a mistake. I added a citation to show you the definition of Hispanic (which it did show how Portuguese aren't Hispanic) and thanks for the concession on having an "instinctive dislike" for me based on an old post. | |||
::::You caused damage to the encyclopedia with that dumb browser extension, then blew up with ''actual'' personal attacks when someone came to the obvious conclusion that this constituted intentional vandalism. Get rid of the extension and stop trying to get others sanctioned for a situation of your making. Manufactured outrage is not a valid currency here. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 17:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::::{{tq|Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism.}} You seriously don't understand how someone could reasonably see changing Trump's name to Drumpf could look like vandalism? ] (]) 17:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
::I also elaborated on how the Portuguese aren't Hispanic/Latino on my post with the bolded words and it's quite clear they aren't and how the article even basically states the same things prior to my edits, shows how I was correct. | |||
:User Departure- moved this topic to this page and it appears to be the appropriate forum for my concern. I will add further detail to support my initial statement. | |||
:I recently made a minor edit to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1270798753&markasread=333745816&markasreadwiki=enwiki&oldid=prev&title=Character.ai. A sentence early in the article read, "Many ]s are be based on fictional media sources". I deleted the word "be" and explained my edit in the comments. There were 3 uses of the word "Trump" in titles in the reference section. Nine years ago TV show Last Week Tonight put out a Chrome extension that changes that surname to its original European spelling of "Drumpf". Unbeknownst to me the extension changed the three instances of "Trump" to "Drumpf" in citations of a page about a website that had nothing to do with politics or individuals with that name. | |||
::Why was this thread regarding me even opened again? | |||
:Despite not changing any names in the article (only the reference titles) and making a constructive change to the article which was explained, Opolito assumed bad faith and slapped a vandalism warning on me. There was no discussion with me. A user of 1 year failed to follow the rules on reporting vandalism. It is my understanding this subjects me to a possible ban should he do this again. I am requesting any notation of vandalism be removed from my account. | |||
:https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. I brought this up in the talk section of my page. He responded it was my responsibility to make perfect edits and claimed I was complaining "the dog ate my homework". He write on my Talk page, "Your edit does not fall under "good faith" and was clearly vandalism. Your very poor excuses aren't convincing anyone." His response illustrates his obliviousness to what constitutes bad faith. | |||
::Ahh, because I accidentally took words out from a part of the article that I didn't see was a quote. - ] (]) 19:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:He then left a warning about attacking other editors claiming I may be blocked from editing because he did not like my response to his false claim of vandalism in my own talk page. I have been a small editor for decades. I don't know how to make claims against others to manage their accounts, but he seems to have done that twice to my account. I am requesting any damage he did to my account be undone. | |||
:I am not the only user to have this problem. User NoahBWill, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/User:NoahBWill2002, who 12 days ago started on his talk page, "Opolito, my friend, this is Noah B. Will; Why do you have to accuse me of vandalism? I've only been just trying to help out, that's all." | |||
:::I reopened it primarily to provide diffs for the occasions when you have referred to other editors in terms such as "retard", "idiotic", https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AWhite_American&action=historysubmit&diff=576968598&oldid=576949615 "illiterate fool" (and some more stuff about who's "legitimately" white in there), "semi-coherent" (based on a misquote of what was actually written), etc. and to observe that you continue to make controversial edits on race-related articles without seeking consensus. ] (]) 19:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Twenty two days ago a user wrote on his Talk page, "Ciarán Hinds is a Northern Irish actor. The infobox clearly states that he was born in Northern Ireland. Do not accuse people making factual changes to a dictionary of being 'not constructive' again." Opolito's response shows he neither understands that Northern Ireland, where Hinds was born, is not part of Ireland AND he continues to falsely charge users with malpractice even when he himself is wrong saying, "being born in Northern Ireland is not the same thing as being Northern Irish. The sources that describe his nationality at all describe him as "Irish". Misplaced Pages article reflect what the sources say. Changing an article to reflect your opinion instead of what the sources say is not allowed. Please do not continue to do so." | |||
:29 days ago user Wilvis1 added an appropriate fact to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Crisfield,_Maryland. He supported the fact with a link to a local business making the claim. Opolito accused Wilvis1 of posting spam. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Crisfield,_Maryland&action=history. It clearly was not spam. | |||
: "I reopened it primarily to provide diffs for the occasions when you have referred to other editors in terms such as "retard", "idiotic"" | |||
:On December 5, Opolito threatened another user. That user responded, "You were also clearly threatening me of a block warning when I clearly did nothing wrong. I ask you kindly to please stop threatening me with your block notification messages on my talk page. You keep making up stuff and said just because I removed it, I didn’t like it, that is NOT were I’m coming from, I explained it to you three times in my edit summaries and yet you refuse to listen. Please chill with your edits and just listen for a moment before this gets out of hand. 2.56.173.95 (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)" | |||
:These examples are just from users who have mentioned recent issues on his Talk page. His edit history confirms a pattern of abuse. A quick look shows on January 20 on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/David_Lynch he threatened user Vinnylospo with bring blocked from editing for adding "unsourced or poorly sources material" calling it a "final warning". Vinnylospo had added the page to the Category for January 2025 California Wildfires. The Hollywood Reporter, as referenced in the article, has reported Lynch's condition severely worsened upon being forced to evacuate due to the fires just before his death. Despite this, Opolito took offense at the inclusion of the category and again threatened a user who had made a good faith edit. | |||
Really? | |||
:I find this behavior deeply concerning and contrary to Misplaced Pages's mission. I just try to make the site a little better where I see errors or things that need cleaning up from time to time. I do not pretend to be versed in all the mechanisms in place for one user to harm another. I know enough that vandalism procedures were not correctly followed by Opolito in my case and others and that takes away from the site's mission. I hope this is in the right place and that something can be done to prevent this from continuing to occur. ] (]) 17:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
Here's what you said in your original post opening this: | |||
'''I'm dearchiving this as suggested above since it still seems to be a live issue. User:Cau7ion is now grinding their axe at Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans, where this diff https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans&action=historysubmit&diff=578265427&oldid=578261280 (and subsequent reverts) is so keen to expunge the Portugese that it simply misquotes the US government references in the lead. Surely this is not appropriate?''' | |||
It doesn't mention anything about talking about providing diffs for older edits and in that diff the term "retard" and "idiotic" are nowhere to be found. I said "connotation about their legitimate whiteness" not "legitimately" (you're misquoting me) and was referring to the government giving them a separate category (which they do) but anyways that was back then. | |||
You're digressing from your original point of reopening this now and ignoring my points about the article we were discussing. | |||
I apologized for my actions as they were a mistake of removing a quote that was a part of a source, didn't know it was, like I said earlier. | |||
I really don't see what else needs to be said here. - ] (]) 20:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Cau7ion: '''Please''' properly format your replies in this thread. As you have currently written them, your comments cannot be followed, as the chain conversation is impossible to be picked out. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 22:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I believe this editor needs a mentor if they hope to edit here. Looking at there contributions we have to face the fact almost ever namespace edit has been reverted on many different topics. Do we call into question ]. Got to be frustrating for anyone that almost every major edit is reverted and contested on the talk pages. Some simple wiki training I believe is in order here. -- ] (]) 22:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I haven't been involved in these latest disputes, but this user's MO appears to be identical to ]. For a summary of this user's many sockpuppetry incidents, please see .] (]) 20:03, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I've opened a sockpuppet investigation here: . I invite interested parties to comment there about this user's behavior.] (]) 20:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== ] ] at ] == | |||
{{archivetop|result=I think we're done here. Anything further should be addressed on the article's talk page. --] (]) 12:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
'''Page:''' {{pagelinks|Schrader valve}} <br /> | |||
'''User being reported:''' {{userlinks|50.73.181.181}} | |||
Repeated breaches of ] over the last month – seven at current count. Not rapid enough to breach brightline 3RR, but it's clearly a policy they're just not interested in observing. ] (]) 18:37, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Well since it's an American invention and the article is about an American product, I think the IP is actually correct. The article should be in US English. Also the US spelling has been in use in the article since the second edit, and it was only recently that someone changed it to British English. It was only in May that someone decided to fully impose a UK spelling incorrectly across the article. So the IP has the right of it in my mind, the other editors, including yourself, who are reverting it are the ones who are violating WP:ENGVAR. ] ] 19:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Agreed with the above; the correct ] is American spelling, and the article was mostly correct for years before it was changed in ''contradiction'' of ENGVAR in May. Also, Andy, did you discuss this with the IP or at ] before bringing this to ANI? I can't find where you did. Suggest this be closed as without merit before it ]s. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 21:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Shrader valves? Really??? An ENGVAR tussle over the article on Shrader valves???? Is there no area of human endeavor (or ''endeavour'') sufficiently dull that it can escape becoming a battleground for these absurd ego trips? ] (]) 03:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Trust me, ]. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 04:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::We will fight them on the ]s--we will fight them on the ]s--we will fight them on the ]s and the ]s and the ]s and the ]s and the ]s and the ]s... ] (]) | |||
::::::We'll even spell ] correctly.... ] (]) 12:17, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Wanna fight about it? ] (]) 00:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Fair suck of the sauce bottle, don't come the raw prawn, ya flamin' drongos! The boss cockys' noticeboard for stoushes is flat out like a lizard drinking with chiaking and furphies, let alone a gumnut's freckle of a blue like this. Some flash cove has already done the hard yakka and pickled this wombat, so lets shut the shearing shed gate on this jumbuck and cop it sweet.--] (]) 09:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Aaaah! Your mother wears army boots! ] (]) 13:19, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Haddaway wi yiz, '''ner-wun''' caals wor mam a hooah! Oops, my account was briefly taken over by my Inner Geordie for a while there. Now, where were we? Oh yes: | |||
:::::::::: * "boss cocky" - a person in charge, "head honcho" | |||
:::::::::: * "stoush" - a fight | |||
:::::::::: * chiaking" - teasing, name-calling | |||
:::::::::: * "furphy" - a rumour, often an allegation with little or no substance | |||
:::::::::: * "blue" - depending on context, either a mistake or a disagreement | |||
:::::::::: * "]" - C19 slang, broadly meaning a show-off. A C21 equivalent might be "cashed-up bogan" (Google it) | |||
:::::::::: * "hard yakka" - strenuous work or effort | |||
:::::::::: * "cop it sweet" - "roll with the punches", "take it on the chin" | |||
:::::::::: All dinky-di though somewhat archaic Australian slang. Except for the stuff about wombats and jumbucks: I just made that up. | |||
:::::::::: That said, I don't think there is anything further to be gained here - closing this thread. Pete aka --] (]) 12:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archivebottom}} | |||
== Edit warring by Embram == | |||
Standard edit war | |||
* | |||
* 19:59, 22 October 2013 | |||
::*20:18, 22 October 2013 , in which I pointed out ], ], and ] | |||
* 20:21, 22 October 2013 | |||
* 20:32, 22 October 2013 | |||
::*20:34, 22 October 2013 (by different editor) | |||
* 20:48, User states "''Neither ... of you (have) identified a specific Misplaced Pages prohibition that I have supposedly violated.''" | |||
No discussion has been started on the talk page, though I am about to do that myself. ] (]) 21:15, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:PS User notified ] (]) 21:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:'''Late supplement, after some discussion happened''' Sorry, I forgot to specify that I am asking for the formal ARBCC warning and then logging of the warning as described in ]. The mechanism for asking for this relief has never been clearly defined, though there are some ]. I used to do it myself, but some admin (I forget who) eventually recommended coming here to solicit an uninvolved admin instead. ] (]) 23:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Don't think you can call it edit warring when the editor is unaware of the general sanctions. I hope this is not simply an attempt to silence the user. ] (]) 21:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::False. The rule is not BOLD-REVERT-REREVERT, but BOLD-REVERT-DISCUSS. And in any case, there were two RE-REVERTS ''after'' I first posted to his talk page about BRD and EDITWAR and ARBCC... as you can plainly see in the above chronology. He simply ignored those after having ACTUAL NOTICE of them. Thats an EW in anybody's book. ] (]) 21:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:What is the administrative action that you are seeking by posting to this noticeboard? Typically enforcement of Arbitration remedies goes through ], while edit warring is reported through ]. Is there something more complex going on here than that? ](]) 21:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Apparently, my crime was trying to abide by the Misplaced Pages "Neutral point of view" dictate which Misplaced Pages states "is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it" (See ]) by merely identifying AGW as a theory that holds that global warming is caused by human activity, and linking to an other Misplaced Pages page that discusses the controversy. I wasn't even disagreeing with them, but that was apparently enough to bring down the wrath of the "there is no controversy; it is settled science" group. As someone on my talk page commented, "Going against AGW is a quick path to getting yourself banned from WP forever. The AGW crowd does not play nice, so I suggest you stop your tactic immediately and stick within the constraints that they have set forth." | |||
So much for Misplaced Pages impartiality, apparently. - ] (]) 22:05, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Also from ]: "This page in a nutshell: Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it." | |||
:My accusers are pursuing sanctions against me because I made one small step to "explain the sides" – and in this case, not even by identifying the other side, let alone making their argument, or even saying what it is, but merely by pointing to another Misplaced Pages page that talks about it. - ] (]) 22:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Correct venue is ], but regardless, can someone block the account for edit warring in clearly problematic content? It should be fairly obvious that inserting denialism into the lead of the climate change is going to be reverted for the POV pushing that it is. It is akin to a creationist pushing the "controversy" on evolution in the lead of that article, or "smoking causes cancer" denialists on the smoking article. One would hope that a reputable encyclopedia would have zero tolerance for blatant POV-pushing and edit warring of this sort, ] (]) 22:21, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: First of all, there's your breathtaking Orwellian contention that even mentioning that there is a debate on a subject is an example of POV. That's absurd. But beyond that, tell me what exactly I put on the "climate change" page (the subject of this accusation) that you consider "denialism"? - ] (]) 22:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Here's my entire addition that was reverted three times by others. Where's the "denialism" in it? <blockquote>] (AGW) theory holds that these human-induced effects are the main cause of current ]; thus "climate change" is often used in relation to the current debate on human-specific impacts on climate.</blockquote> - ] (]) 22:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::There is as about as much debate amongst scientists about global warming as there is about evolution, that smoking causes cancer etc etc. Trying to make it look like there is a debate is a classic ] pitch. You added clearly problematic content to the lead, and then edit warred to keep it in. ] (]) 23:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{od}}I just supplemented my opening post by specifying the relief I seek and why I ask here. See bolded section in OP above. ] (]) 23:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Honestly, guys, this doesn't seem like a sanctionable event to me. After all the back and forth, the resulting change to the lead of the article does seem like an improvement (to me, at any rate).] (]) 23:40, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:(involved) Basically, what TenOfAllTrades said. Nothing actionable yet for ANI, and this isn't the place to hash out a content dispute as Embram seems to think. I also think that formal sanctions warnings are a bit of ], so long as the potentially sanctionable editor has been made aware of their existence. ] (]) 01:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Yes, I now understand about ]. I was doing reverting, and so were the other guys, and none of us discussed on the talk page (but only in the edit summaries) until '''''after''''' the incident report was filed. The reason I did not fully understand the ] rules was that in the five years I've been trying to help out here by occasional editing, this is the first time I attempted to edit in a climate change topic, so I'd never faced this kind of organized tagteam content-suppression before. I was acting in good faith, so I assumed they were. I kept thinking they would understand that I wasn't trying to contradict them, just to facilitate understanding by providing links to other Misplaced Pages pages that expanded on aspects of the topic. My mistake. Now I know better. From now on I'll follow the BOLD, revert, discuss (BRD) cycle rules. - ] (]) 17:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::That's nice. I hope you will, Embram, and please take some account of ] also. Funnily enough, those passive-aggressive attacks under cover of meekness don't fill me with confidence. ] | ] 14:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
== ColonelHenry GA review ownership issues and personal attacks == | |||
{{archivetop|result=Closing since the article in question has been delisted and ] has been warned not to engage in further personal attacks. ] (]) 18:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
Hello. Could someone please take a look at ] and look at the behavior of {{u|ColonelHenry}}. It was brought to my attention by by {{u|AfadsBad}} that the article ] is little more than word soup, with numerous factual errors. I raised this as a matter of urgency at ], where ColonelHenry has "assessed" the article as "good". ColonelHenry responded by making personal attacks at AfadsBad, apparently based on AfadsBad having disagreed with another (IMO, poor quality) review made by him at ], and, well, you can see the way that he's been talking to me. I think that it's outrageous. However, as I've now had some ] with the article content - I removed its GA status as an emergency measure, but was immediately reverted by him* - I'm obviously not at liberty to take any action over his behavior. I would appreciate a second opinion. Thanks. — ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 21:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{small|{{asterisk}} I've not had any prior experience with these processes. If that's the wrong procedure, it can be discussed elsewhere, it's not the point of this post.}} | |||
* '''Response:''' Apparently, Scott Martin decided to plow his comments after the GA review was over, stating that a disaffected angry former editor (AfadsBad) decided to post a blog rant criticizing the article's accuracy. I stated that the blog rant isn't credible, IMO, stating that the former editor's behavior was troll-like and petulant, and that I wouldn't pay attention to it. Apparently, AfadsBad has some bad feelings over his Misplaced Pages experience that he has taken to other areas by starting a blog criticizing science coverage on Misplaced Pages. Scott Martin decided next to post an ultimatum to me on the talk page for the article. I responded derisively and told him nothing was stopping him and pointing to the similar behavior in his ultimatum. If Scott Martin is angry that I responded to his petulance by calling him petulant, well his behavior was "irritable, unreasonable bad temper over something unimportant" so the word is apt. I call a spade a spade. While I don't intend to be meanspirited, I also don't intend to sugarcoat. Scott Martin removed the GA from the talk page of the article, I reverted stating in the edit summary that the proper process is WP:GAR, after which I contacted him on his talk page to direct him to WP:GAR, recommended a community reassessment, and a few notes about bringing sources if he disagrees with the content. During my review, I found the sources provided by the nominator to address the content issues at the GA review sufficed and support the statements made in the article.--] (]) 21:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I think the post above is an adequate demonstration of the issues here. — ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 21:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC) <small>Note: It's late here. I'm going offline until tomorrow.</small> | |||
::: I can't believe I'm "helping." I have shared the Pedra da Gávea "good article" with a few geologist friends of mine and a good laugh was had by all. Your problem is you have people assessing the quality of articles in geology (and most of the other sciences) that don't have a bright high school sophomore's understanding of the subject. They are completely ignorant. You have reduced the whole notion of "quality" down to whether objective, but useless and badly constructed, internal rules are met. Rather than, you know, an assessment against reality. I love it.] (]) 22:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Unfortunately, as demonstrated by recent discussions that ] has had, most Wikipedians are uninterested and overtly hostile to having any sort of expert/qualified reviews. It is hardly surprising that most articles are rather poor and that reviews are more about rule following and style over substance. <small>just to note; I've no problem with non-expert editing for the most part since I have no particular expertise in most articles I edit (who could edit here on the same topic as their day job and stay sane?), rather I think the expert review is how we go to the top notch while letting the non-experts (us) do a lot of the leg work.</small> ] (]) 22:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::* IRWolfie - I've done close to 200 GA reviews, about 30 under this account. I've failed about 35% of the articles I've reviewed. I check sources. It's something I did years ago under an older account and only started to rekindle that involvement this past year. In all of those, I've only found a half-dozen (mostly recently) where someone interfered with the review (in the case of Afadsbad, he announced he intended to disrupt) and I had to fail the Parsnip one on advice of other editors. Sure, some people don't like their reviews failed and told to try again, but in the few science GA reviews (two botany, now this one), I notice scientists tend to be incredibly territorial, and the battles among them petty and nasty (battles in academia are often petty because they're essentially meaningless), and it seems that they are the ones I've run into problems with. I have never encountered such petulant resistance until the last few weeks in almost a decade of editing on Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 22:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::{{tq|I check sources.}} I am now in the process of examining the Pedra da Gávea article. From what I've seen so far - and I'm only working on the start of the article - I am unconvinced by that statement. Given that you allowed the inclusion of a statement about ], your source checking skills are questionable at best. Given that you missed {{diff|diff=578333273|label=a basic spelling error}} and, astonishingly, {{diff|diff=578314122|label=a mangled editing mistake monstrosity}}, your abilities as a proofreader are clearly also substandard. And given the extended pattern of your incivility and patronizing and dismissive attitude towards other editors that is on evidence in this discussion, your ability to participate in teamwork is far below even the minimum standard that I would expect. In short, I question your suitability to be involved with the article review process at all. — ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 11:56, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*To my misfortune, my first GA review was handled by Henry and I still remember the amount of drama I had to deal with because of it. He gave a rather poor failing rationale where he attempted to force his own style onto the article and gave a lot of vague non-constructive criticism, then snapped when I politely asked for specifics. After multiple GA regulars agreed that it was a bad review and one suggested I renominate the page, I went ahead and did so only for him to complain at WQA that the renomination was uncivil. In the subsequent review it was much more calm and easygoing, with the article getting passed without much difficulty. There was no information gap as it was not a science article, it was just that he did not gracefully handle even the slightest questioning of his arguments.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 22:43, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:* Devil's Advocate, I don't remember the review you mention. Which article? --] (]) 22:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::*It was ].--] <sub>] ]</sub> 22:52, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::* And at that time, it was a badly written, badly organized article. I stated it, that it was quick-fail worthy but you didn't like that I was failing it, so you fought back (occasionally, that happens--no one likes seeing their pet projects criticized). I always suspected that you got a ] to pass it for you. However, that was 15 months ago. The issue is dead and moot. --] (]) 22:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::*Eh, well, I will admit that I am not real good at keeping up with the gossip and I may have missed a scandal or two. But whence the suggestion that {{U|SilkTork}} could be The Devil's Advocate's meat? Shouldn't someone take a deep breath before saying stuff like that? ] (]) 03:05, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
Having looked at the article, I have to agree that the suggestion that it deserves GA status seems questionable. It is disjointed, and I don't think that "word soup" is an unfair characterisation. An elementary spelling error, "Nordick runes", seems to have passed unnoticed. I would suggest that a fresh review by an uninvolved contributor familiar with the review process would be for the best. ] (]) 23:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Why is this at ANI? I think ] is the correct venue for these concerns. ] (]) 23:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:* I proposed GAR to Scott Martin...twice. He took it here, pissed off that I called him "petulant", then deleted my suggestion from his talk page. --] (]) 23:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::This could hardly be less accurate. I raised my severe concerns with the assessment on its talk page. ColonelHenry replied with a barrage of rude comments about AfadsBad. I told him to stop making personal attacks and that I planned to downgrade the article. He replied with rude comments aimed at me. His suggestion about GAR came on my talk page after he had reverted my downgrade (the edit summary for which also mentioned GAR) and ''after'' I had posted here. And I did not delete anything; I moved the suggestion to the assessment talk page, as he is well aware. Notice the battleground mentality as well; anyone that disagrees with ColonelHenry is "pissed off" or "petulant". — ] <span style="color:#900">•</span> ] 11:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Mark makes a good point. Discussion about the GA review/status of the article should focus on the ] page. | |||
:Nonetheless, what causes concern here is ColonelHenry's inappropriate interactions with other editors. There is just too much unnecessary rudeness and insult in his messages. I think everyone can respect Henry's standard of "call a spade a spade", but he really needs to watch his wording. | |||
:No one voluntarily comes to Misplaced Pages to be berated, and it certainly does not help with editor retention. | |||
:Being rude does not make you look professional or serious; in fact, it causes the opposite effect. | |||
:Everyone appreciates the GA review work you do. There is no need to be rude. | |||
:So, please, ColonelHenry, just be cool.--] | ] 23:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Just to be more clear, see . There is absolutely no need for that kind of behavior.--] | ] 23:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: '''Note:''' MarshalN20 and I had run in on the GA for ] which I failed, in which he offered an unsolicited opinion to augment the position of a poem that already was a copyvio issue. This was another incident when the ever irritable AfadsBad decided to stalk my contributions to insert himself and his ill-will.--] (]) 23:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes, Henry, I made a mistake with "the copyvio issue". You could have simply stated that, but instead responded with "this is my review (I signed up for it), not yours. If I need an external second opinion, I'll ask for it. But I didn't ask for one". All we request is that you please moderate your language. We are your colleagues, nothing less and nothing more, and all should display mutual respect. If you disagree with someone or something, voice it, but don't insult. Call the spade a spade, if you wish, but don't call it a "worthless old spade". Regards.--] | ] 00:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Said the man who deleted my comments from an FAC twice because of his dispute with me.--] (]) 00:17, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Henry, we have never had a "dispute". You made another inappropriate comment on the FAC of the Peru national football team (), and I reverted it. If, as The Devil's Advocate states, you have been behaving the same way for over a year, there is something seriously wrong going on here. We are simply asking that you please stop being rude. Why is this such a problem?--] | ] 00:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Agree the problem and why we are here is a lack of communication skills. The GA review is secondary, but still important. Attacking people in ever post is simply not a good way to move any position forward and makes the editor in-question look immature. -- ] (]) 23:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::As I noted, this is not a new issue as my own experience with him was over a year ago. That he is ''still'' acting this way is not a good thing.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 23:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Agree. My interaction ] with ColonelHenry shows the exact same behavior. Not collaborative, rude, snide, and liberal with personal attacks (of which I no doubt am about to be accused of).--v/r - ]] 01:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Hey, if most of you don't like me...IDGAF. Personally, I add good content to this site--as reflected in the articles on which I'm most of proud of working. Quite frankly, I don't care about the feelings of oversensitive editors who can't bear to hear people talking back to them when they waltz in trying to impose the Eric Cartmanesque "respect my authority" schtick. If you want me to stop reviewing GAs, fine because you don't agree with my reviewing style (which only about a half dozen of my reviews have ever been an issue). If you want me to go away because I'm not a nice, puppy-dogs-and-ice-cream, warm and fuzzy personality, well, that ain't my problem. Sometimes I'm rude, who cares. Most of the people on Misplaced Pages are maladjusted basement dwellers who relish the chance to flame someone. Funny that this entire controversy seems to have started from a few editors--Scott Martin, AfadsBad, and others--in that cabal that hangs out at Wikipediocracy (including one editor posting there who actually has thanked me for some of my bone-headed bellicosity toward Mr. Maartin). If you don't like how I contribute, IDGAF. I'll stick to writing articles and forget all the other community bullshit like GA reviews. I don't care anymore. And if your feelings are hurt by the result of my honesty, I don't care then either. --] (]) 02:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:No one's saying you have to massage anyone's ego, but when someone says "I must respectfully disagree with you on that point" and your response is essentially "Yeah, well fuck you jackass!" then it tends to make working with you a tad difficult.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 03:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*I remember seeing that "this is my GA review, get the fuck out", and was a bit dumbfounded by that attitude. Fuck this, fuck that, I don't care, fuck you, fuck those editors, who cares, fuck cares, fuck feelings, fuck your feelings--sure. Sigh. Yeah, Colonel, I don't get it, but you probably don't give a fuck about that either. Then again, those fucking editors are the same editors who wrote up Misplaced Pages and gave you ]--yes, . Will you please just tone it down? Your work is appreciated, but the snark is not. ] (]) 03:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::This admin would like to remind ColonelHenry that another violation of ] - like, but not limited to, "Most of the people on Misplaced Pages are maladjusted basement dwellers" - will lead to a block. ] 03:42, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I don't even have a basement. Besides, that comment should come with a "globalise" tag--it's an Americanism, and I can smell the wood paneling, the wet laundry, and the water heater from here (outside, in the yard, not in the basement). ] (]) 04:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Mmm. I think something more than 50% of the regulars are basement-dwelling misfits, and I don't consider the colonel's observation to be a personal attack. On anyone. Just a statement with some likelihood of truth. (We should commission a survey.) --] (] · ] · ]) 04:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Colonel, per Drmies, your work here is truly appreciated but being kind and patient with sometimes irritable colleagues is a very important part of the tool set when you assume the role of judging the fitness of their creative efforts here. Our feelings really matter: just as yours obviously do. I've mentioned this at ]. --] (] · ] · ]) 03:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Comment from Gerda: I have no time to dig into this specific review, but can testify that one of my GA reviews (all pleasant, even the one of eight that failed) was recently performed by ] on the unusual subject ], with good questions and helpful comments improving the article (which is up for peer review, btw). --] (]) 11:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Henry, I'd second Anthony's point above. I know you have a shiny barnstar on your page just this week from me for pitching in with the backlog, but someone pointed out ], and it's been troubling me. The nominator was understandably frustrated enough with this review that she was considering giving up on the GA project for a while. It was a bit frustrating to me, too, to see that you quickfailed it for copyediting reasons, because after copyediting both this one and this weekend, I can say that the problems in her nomination are by far the less severe. I don't intend to spite-fail your nomination or anything, but I would ask that if you keep reviewing, you bring the same patience to others' reviews that you'd ask for in your own. Like Anthony says, it's just a part of the toolset. Personally, I do hope you keep both contributing and reviewing--thanks for volunteering your work. -- ] (]) 12:41, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Following edit to ColonelHenry's userpage, I've issued a for incivility. ] 13:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::"" - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 17:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Added to ]=== | |||
I have decided to nominate the article for a community reassessment, per peoples comments above. If anyone wishes to comment on it, you can find it at ]. --]]<small>]</small> 07:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== ] and repeated violations of ] == | |||
{{User|Sportsgamaniacre}} has repeatedly violated ], mis-licensed images in an attempt to ignore the policy, and does not communicate. Can an admin please step in and block the user? ] (]) 23:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Should probably be indeffed until some reasonable conveyance of the user's proper understanding of policy is given. --] ] 00:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Cricket chirps only? ] (]) 12:40, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== More editor harassment == | |||
{{atop|status=Blocked|result=Indeffed for disruptive editing and vandalism. --] ] 18:39, 24 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
I started paying attention to {{User|Wickedangry}} maybe a year ago when they began making changes at ] without any source material whatsoever. What seemed to be a bigger issue was how he handled his work being undone or receiving input or criticism from other editors. While of course any editor can blank their talk page at will, edit summaries such as for often leave a clue as to their attitude. Then there were edits involving . Most recently they have delved into pure vandalism, including that prompted a final warning from another editor. After the warning was issued, Wickedangry proceeded to the user page of the editor who reverted his vandalism at ]. This type of behavior really needs to come to an end. --''']]''' 02:52, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Blocked indefinitely - I believe the editor has had enough chances, given their four previous blocks. Outright userpage and mainspace vandalism are inexcusable. ] 03:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
== User using multiple non-account IPs to mass-remove information == | |||
== Revert ip socks of banned user Jeffrey Merkey == | |||
*{{userlinks|93.204.189.212}} | |||
*{{userlinks|2003:D3:FF39:B51E:70D0:BF68:E7ED:B8DA}} | |||
Three ip sock of have been editting topics that were favorites of previous Mercury socks. Novell, Drew Major, Eric Shcmidt, Groklaw. | |||
*{{userlinks|2003:D3:FF39:B598:98F3:BF2A:47F0:FB06}} | |||
These are the sock's | |||
By following ] I am removing the edits which are easy to remove without damageing the article. | |||
He will attack me, he will say I chould be banned b/c I am an SPA. That makes him a hipocrite b/c he said this when he tried to delete Groklaw : | |||
Doesnt matter he is still violating ban. ] (]) 03:24, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hi. You can report the user to SPI with clear evidence. Since Jeffrey Merkey is banned, all of his edits should be reverted and disregarded on sight as he is not welcome anymore to edit Misplaced Pages. ] (] - ]) 03:29, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::SPI would just block the ip but they are all old so its not worth it to block. I would report a named acount or an ip that was active. ] (]) 03:33, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== IP 192.88.168.1 == | |||
I am having a problem with , regarding edit-warring at ], plus violating ]. | |||
Details: The IP started a new talk page section titled “Need a proper lead”. Then I changed the talk page section header to something neutral: “Discussion about whether the lead is proper”, with this edit summary: “”. The linked guideline says: “Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it….Do not be critical in headings: This includes being critical about details of the article. Those details were written by individual editors, who may experience the heading as an attack on them.” The IP reinserted the non-neutral header . Then I gave a warning . And then the IP reinserted the non-neutral header , citing that says: “Editing another editor's signed talk page comments is generally frowned upon, even if the edit merely corrects spelling or grammar.” Of course, I did not edit any comment, only a header (which was obviously non-neutral). | |||
Maybe the IP would listen to someone else other than me, with or without a block.] (]) 03:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Let's hope so. I've reverted, with a brief edit summary. You are technically correct, though this is hardly worth the time; I hope you haven't reported at ANEW also. ] (]) 04:06, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Thanks. No, it's only reported here. It's a small matter, but in another sense it's important to show that guidelines and policies actually mean something (note the article title). Cheers.] (]) 04:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Drmies, you are violating ]. Except in extreme circumstances, it is highly inappropriate to modify other people's contributions on Talk pages, regardless of whether you disagree with them. Additionally it is very inappropriate to change section headers on the Talk pages as this can be misleading and make the conversations hard to follow. I've explained this to Anythingyouwant and now I am explaining it to you. Arguing that slightly questionable neutrality in my wording is an excuse to deliberately change what I said is blatantly fallacious. | |||
::For the record, had Anythingyouwant asked me to make more effort to make the section headers more neutral in the future I would have agreed, even apologized (though frankly arguing that there is a lack of neutrality is in this Talk section title is at best quibbling). But given that Anythingyouwant has chosen to deal with this by changing my comments, and edit warring about it to boot, there is nothing for me to say but register a complaint. | |||
::Please put back what I said the way I said it. If you have a concern about it, say so on the Talk page. That is what it is for. | |||
::--MC <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:::I'm sure you have a lot more experience with and knowledge of Misplaced Pages's guidelines than I do, but headings ought to be neutral. Thank you for the lesson though. ] (]) 16:20, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
{{User|Worldedixor}} has had an incivil behaviour with me from the first moment I exchanged words with them. Two days ago, {{user|Goldenshimmer}} asked on IRC #wikipedia-en-help if somebody could have a look at an edit war at the article ]; I intervened, removed a section that was not encyclopedic and ununderstandable, which read: "Fans around the world blame the bad faith impulsiveness and the unprofessional interruption by the two obscure X-factor judges ], a little known Belarusian rapper, and Ihor Kondratiuk for ruining a once in a lifetime, unique performance of Lullaby, that even Aida herself can no longer recapture or reproduce.". I had never heard of read of this singer before, and I told the user on IRC that I was going to AFD it (though I was not letting it being deleted) so that others could help improve the article, but never with the intention of having it deleted. And so I did. I notified the user Worldedixor on his talk page, , it has been a long-string of unfriendly, incivil comments, at times he has even mocked about my culture, and somehow he discovered I'd visited Leiva, Colombia. He also went on to nominate, as he said, "solamente pa molestar" (only to disrupt), one of my articles for deletion, even though it is properly referenced (though it could do better). | |||
Relevant links: . I urge you to help me with that user; I believe that what he did was unjustified, as I did not nominate the article for deletion for ''its'' deletion, but he has gone mad. I had avoided responding any of his comments, but I have got enough. ] (]) 15:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:(ec) I can't really comment much on ]'s interactions with ], not having looked into them thoroughly; but my own interactions with the editor haven't really seemed particularly problematic, and have on the whole seemed to indicate good intentions for the article, and a genuine desire to help. My main concerns from what I've seen from Worldedixor are an apparent lack of understanding of some Misplaced Pages policies, as evidenced by (], ]). Perhaps more disconcerting is . It added an unsourced, somewhat ]-y comment referring to the competition judges as "Beavis and Butthead" and added an alternative transliteration of the name. The edit summary only mentioned the new transliteration; the lack of mention of the other change could possibly be interpreted as an attempt to hide an inappropriate addition. Be clear I'm not saying that's what it was, necessarily, just that it could possibly come across that way. I hope this helps, and that the situation can be resolved amicably :) ] (]) 15:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I have not had interactions with him other than the AFD nomination and this thread. Golden, could you confirm what I said of our interaction on IRC? Regards, ] (]) 15:47, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::" I told the user on IRC that I was going to AFD it (though I was not letting it being deleted) so that others could help improve the article, but never with the intention of having it deleted". Sorry, Küñall, but if you do things like that, you can expect a negative reaction. Don't '''ever''' nominate an article for deletion unless you think deletion is justified - and you'll need a better rationale than "Since I don't read Ukrainian, I can't check if this girl is actually notable in her home country". This can only ever come across as a bad-faith nomination. ] (]) 16:00, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::True, but still, at the time notability could not be established, the article used some youtube and blogspot references which did not make me feel sure about it. It was not, anyway, made in bad faith, as I said, I don't even have a real interest in entertainment-related people, I nommed it to raise comments to improve the article. The nomination, unfounded or not, does not justify the aggressive behavior the user has had. ] (]) 16:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::It may not justify it - I'd say that it goes a long way towards explaining it though. I suggest that you formally withdraw the nomination, and familiarise yourself with the purpose of AfDs before nominating articles in future. ] (]) 16:17, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::I have been active here for over six years, I know how things work out Andy; it's just that I did not think of a better way the article could be improved, rather than just leaving a message on the talk page. I was wrong, though, this time. As Golden states below, the article at the time (for a winner of a local X-Factor thingy) did not prove this person was notable enough to have her own article, and that's the actual reason of nomination, but I would not let it be deleted. Since some four or five commenters wanted to keep the article, I thought withdrawing the nomination was trivial. ] (]) 16:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::If you have been here for six years, you should know better than to nominate an article for deletion that you didn't want deleted. Such actions can only be seen as bad-faith and confrontational. ] (]) 16:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::], I can confirm that you said in IRC that you would AfD it, and that you wouldn't let it be deleted. Luckily the discussion was still in my XChat scrollback, so if we need logs I can provide them. ]: I think it's significant that Küñall AfDed the article before it had much in the way of references or content (given the lack of additional information, I consider the AfD to have been quite understandable and good-faith at that time). It was only after I found the corresponding Ukrainian article, translated it, and merged it into the English article (providing references and additional content) that Küñall stated he would not let it be deleted. My assumption was that since he had initiated the AfD process (at a time when it made sense) he wanted to let it run its full course, rather than aborting it (just my interpretation of what happened). Obviously I am not impartial in this discussion (just something to keep in mind in the interest of full disclosure). ] (]) 16:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I see that Küñall replied while I was writing. Sorry :) ] (]) 16:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Further comments: For me, and seemed to indicate good faith on ]'s part. ] (]) 16:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC) I like to think that everyone involved is trying to help the encyclopedia. ] (]) 16:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::He may act in good faith, but he sure loses his temper too quick That came in right after I asked to solve this problem in a friendly way; instead, he went on to attack me. This really needs some admin's intervention. I have also reverted them for content removal on a GA-nominated article of mine which he AFDdded. ] (]) 18:55, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Good day to all. I am currently involved in a GA nomination (]) upon request here (]) of an article created by Kunall, although I've had no other interactions with the two users otherwise. This has quickly become an AfD for said article ] which I support for legitimate notability reasons. Having read comments like this ("Mira, chico... You will never make a friend out me. Either you are an idiot or you think I am one!... Don't you ever instigate me and harass me and then ask for my personal e-mail. You are nothing more than a passive aggressive homosapien ") by Worldedixor on talk page (), I do not feel Worldedixor would make an impartial reviewer. I have offered to review this article from good faith and do not want to enter this dispute, so I would request advice as to how to proceed. ] (]) 20:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Good day to all. ] (]), you probably have not seen ALL the bad faith actions and unnecessary digs by Küñall, like attacking me, my article and my English (pot calling kettle black) and, in all fairness to you, you already said "I've had no other interactions with the two users". I am sure you do not have time to research every single detail to be "fair and unbiased" and judge me correctly, none of us does, and our time is better spent cooperating and editing Misplaced Pages in good faith. I admit that it is hard to remain civil when instigated, and there is ample evidence of such, '''and I am not the only one who saw his actions being in bad-faith and confrontational'''. Also, his, now defunct afd of Aida's article was perplexing, and his sorry justification added insult to injury. Most importantly, he robbed the enjoyment of creating an important article of a notable singer, a fruit of a lot of hard work and almost impossible research for someone who does not speak Ukrainian, about what may be the next ] or ]. What you saw, and I mean "perceived", was my "reaction" to '''"his passive aggressive actions".''' By the way,for full disclosure, homosapien means "human" not homosexual. ] (see his remarks above) asked me to calm waters in Misplaced Pages's best interest, and I did. However, the "perception" of well-meaning people like you based on "INCOMPLETE and/or misconstrued facts" enable Küñal who, in my opinion, NEVER donated any money to help Misplaced Pages survive, and whose overinflated ego drove him to violate Wikepedia's rules and create an article about himself and his buddies even posting pictures of himself on Misplaced Pages which I duly removed. As for what matters most here, the '''sheer lack of notability criteria''' for a student center of a high school in a small town, one of million student centers in the world, I believe, is a no brainer. I am out of here. My wonderful life in paradise is calling me. God bless. ] (]) 22:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::]: I'm not denying that there are some <!-- added ~~~~ -->definite<!-- added --> problems here. I was just trying to clarify my experience of my own interactions with ]. Still hoping for a happy ending for all involved :) ] (]) 22:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
By the way, the user has a long string of incivil discussions. These include: this one from April 2011 ( ), everyone who edits his userpage is an "overinflated and mean spirited ego" (; ); all these from his own talk page. He has also canvassed some users to "keep" his article: . Some golden quotes: , , , , , , . Additionally, Worldedixor misunderstands the WP:AGF guideline by justifying some of his actions as being made with good faith, when they are on the contrary made with bad intentions . The confrontational list of Worldedixor goes on and on, just look up his contributions. P.S.: I wanted to solve in a friendly manner, privately, I even left my e-mail on his talk page for us to resolve this peacefully, but the user rejected any chance of solution by stating: . I'm not sure an user with such a hot temper, with such an hability to distort everything he sees to his favor, with such an hability to see problems wherever they are not, should be allowed to edit Misplaced Pages. Please, ''please'' keep Worldedixor off from harassing me and my work. ] (]) 02:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*This is an unfair dispute. I do not have the time that Küñall has. Küñall is unable to focus on a simple afd, yet has unlimited time to dig dirt and throw smoke screens at random in a desperate effort to defeat a very straightforward afd. I had to deal with his ilk before. '''Let me simplify this'''. I do not "live" on Misplaced Pages. I simply donate money to Wikepedia and I sometimes edit. I wish Küñall and his ilk would focus on editing articles in good faith rather than consume my time and create self-aggrandizing articles like the one I afd'd. In simple terms, Küñall acted I reacted. In an UNREALD matter, I noticed and nominated for afd one of his "many" articles that does not belong in Misplaced Pages, I did '''not''' nominate ALL his articles, as he is trying to prove... I will see this afd through conclusion. After that, I will simply enjoy my peaceful real life unless I see something I can contribute to in good faith on Wikepedia. '''As for the afd, I will also simplify it'''. '''Are Küñall and his pals notable? No. Is his student center notable? No.''' Ergo, neither his pictures nor his article should be in Misplaced Pages. Any sensible editor who disagrees with my sound argument, please show me reliable sources of the notability of Küñall and his pals, minors or otherwise, and the notability of his "random" student center, one of millions in the world. '''Let me simplify this even further''', had Küñall been acting in good faith rather than press a self-serving agenda, '''he would have told the truth and admitted that he is NOT notable by any stretch of the imagination''', therefore '''his name and pictures do NOT belong in an encyclopedia'''. He would have also been the first to remove his pictures and SUPPORT the deletion of this self-aggrandizing article when I nominated it for afd rather than hinder it with one smoke screen after another. '''IN CONCLUSION''', it is my strong opinion, based on facts presented, that Küñall continues a systematic pattern of acting in bad faith and his credibility as far as his questionable notability is concerned is shattered. One final thought: Wouldn't life have been a bit simpler, harmonious and peaceful if one editor took the time patiently to "think" before he nominates a good article for afd? ] (]) 02:20, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Enough of this nonsense, time for blocks?=== | |||
Since it seems evident that neither Worldedixor nor Küñall are capable of civil behaviour, and that both are intent on causing as much drama as possible, '''I formally propose that they both be blocked from editing until the AfD for ] has finished.''' This is a ridiculous dispute that has been blown out of all proportion by two contributors, neither of which seems presently to have the interests of Misplaced Pages at heart. ] (]) 03:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: I have not had an incivil behavior with Worldedixor, I have not made any personal attacks, I have just provided reasons for measures against them. It is my right to do so, it's never been in my plans here to get into unnecessary trouble, I don't normally get into discussions because I like to do my work at Misplaced Pages as a ] and I'm going to continue doing so after this gets solved. I tried to collaborate, they went on to make personal attacks. It ain't my fault. And, this is my last comment here, I hate drama. ] (]) 03:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*I sincerely can understand your frustration, mate. I put this behind me hours ago, but I felt I must respond to Küñall's diatribe above without having all the free time he has. Since you too do not have time to get into and "correctly" analyze all the details, I can understand where you're coming from. Cheerio!... :) ] (]) 03:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Both blocked 24 hours for a 3RR violation. I don't think any of the reverts were covered under the narrow exemptions to 3RR. ] (]) 15:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Repeated personal attacks on Talk:Animal Welfare == | |||
A series of IPs have been making multiple personal attacks on me at ]. I reported this to this page several days ago and an administrator contacted 2 of the IP's to request they behaved with more civility and s/he placed a 7-day registered user block on ] The personal attacks on me have now moved to ] and have (in my opinion) increased in their intensity and extent of uncivility. Is it possible to place blocks on a series of IPs? What is the policy on my deleting personal attacks from pages - I would hate to see accusations of me "constantly lying" persist on pages. I have noted the policy that raising discussion about an editor should be noted on their talk page, but given that these IP's do not have a talk page, I have been unable to do this__] (]) 15:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*IPs do have talk pages. It would be helpful if you could give us some diffs of the alleged attacks (see ]). I'm about to go look at the talk page, and the article page, but it would save me (us) a lot of time if you present the evidence for what you think requires administrative action. ] (]) 15:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Well that's a lot of fun. I'm about to go warn that IP for a kind of jackassery (unfair accusations of vandalism). The article is now semi-protected to ward off disruptive IP edits, no doubt from the same person (similar IP addresses, and similar low quality of English); they may well be interested in a lot of things but one thing is the pushing of a particular scholar, see ], exemplified by . And I suppose the plethora of uncited complaints on the talk page are theirs as well. It seems that perhaps the article would be best served by a. attention from more editors ({{U|Gaba_p}}, whom I don't think I know, is in on the action, but the article could use more help) and b. semi-protecting the talk page (unfortunately), if a consensus from that talk page is that the IPs edits are disruptive (I'm leaning in that direction already).<p>Then again, and I've only scratched the surface, DrChrissy doesn't come here with empty hands; I am troubled by , which is a pretty curt revert of some serious content additions by {{U|Startswithj}}. Now, those edits also involved the "particular scholar" issue (based on --and please don't point out ''here'' that it's just a thesis and all that; that's known and a matter for the talk page); I wonder if DrChrissy suspects that the IP and Startswithj are connected. There was little explanation for the revert, and if no reason or suspicion is given, then one might claim some OWNership here.<p>More eyes, please. Again, I'll drop a note for the IP, but the rest should be up to knowledgeable editors who can perhaps recommend if, for instance, semi-protecting the talk page is valid (it's an extreme solution). ] (]) 15:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**A bit of editorial advice, DrChrissy: the argument that Jenia Meng's work is fringe (or not yet accepted, not positively reviewed, not decently published, etc.) needs to be made explicitly, not between the lines or in edit summaries. So, if you want to get rid of it without appearing like a crusader, start a section on the talk page, with "Jenia Meng" in the title, or start an ]), and get editorial consensus on the removal of said scholar's work. That way any edits that seem to be plugging that scholar can be immediately reverted with the note "see talk page", if the consensus is good enough, from a large enough number of different editors (say, more than two or three). RfCs are a great tool for this. ] (]) 16:03, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Reply regarding edit of ]=== | |||
::I deleted the Startswithj edit because it stated that Animal Welfare "generally refers to a utilitarian '''attitude''' (my emphasis) towards the well-being of nonhuman animals". I do not believe this to be true. The fact that the previous wording "Animal welfare is the ] and ] ] of animals" has not been edited or contested for so long, indicates other editors have the same opinion. Stating that Animal welfare is an attitude rather than a characteristic of the animal is a considerable change to the meaning of opening sentence and should have been taken to the Talk page prior to the edit. Having said this, I accept that rather than reverting, I too should have perhaps taken the proposed revertion to the Talk page, however, I did discuss this issue in many places on the Talk page prior to and subsequent to my reversion. I had not noted the editors name at the time and the potential relevance__] (]) 17:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::'''I think you have the wrong person here.''' I wasn't the editor who added the word "attitude" (or "generally," or "utilitarian") to the opening sentence of the ] article, as suggested by ] above. That wording was there before I made my first edit (see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Animal_welfare&oldid=577509336). I believe all of my edits were grammatical/syntactical corrections (punctuation, links), as documented on the article's History page. I didn't choose to follow the article after editing, so I didn't notice my changes were promptly undone. I have no association with IP address 124— (which appears to be in Sydney). My IP starts is 173— (San Francisco). …Wow. ] (]) 07:31, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Hi. My apologies for incorrectly continuing your apparent involvement in this. I was responding to a message by a very busy administrator who has been trying to track someone using a range of IP addresses and is apparently attempting to evade scrutiny. I'm sure the administrator would offer similar apologies. Sorry.__] (]) 11:59, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Oh, I didn't say anything bad about Startswithj's edits; ''au contraire''. ] (]) 17:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Reply to "A bit of editorial advice"=== | |||
::::Thanks for your advice. It is not my intention to get the work of Meng removed, rather, I believe the impact of the work is being overstated and interpretation of it in ] has been misleading to the lay reader. Meng's Ph.D. thesis was published in 2009 so has yet to be widely examined and evaluated by the scientific community, unlike other arguments/hypotheses about animal welfare, some of which have been in existance for decades. I was pointing out that because of it's relative newness it was currently a minority point of view. I have not knowingly commented about the quality of Meng's work; I know Meng's supervisor and Ph.D. referees personally and have worked closely with at least one of them. There has been relatively little input on Animal Welfare or the Talk page on this matter to indicate what is consensus - your idea of starting a section on Jenia Meng on the Talk page is a very sensible one and I shall definitely consider this.__] (]) 17:33, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::"Ph.D. thesis was published in 2009 so has yet to be widely examined and evaluated by the scientific community" | |||
::::: UNTRUE. The scientific community of animal welfare is well aware of Meng's study. The study was an 12-nation ] project. The contributors (many collaborators) includes many leading animal welfare experts from different nations (see Acknowledgement section of 'Origins of Attitudes toward Animals' on Google book). And it has also been reviewed by many independent scientists too. | |||
::::: 2009 were many years ago. Misplaced Pages article should catch up with the changes. Fast update was an advantage of Misplaced Pages. Even traditional publisher like books to be up-to-date. | |||
::::: Here is a list of peer reviews: http://earthapril.goodeasy.info/research/publications/Reviews_OriginsOfAttitudesTowardsAnimals_JMeng2009.htm | |||
] (]) 07:55, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Well, speaking of Meng, perhaps this thread should take a different tack: I just, on Recent changes, ran into on ], where an IP from the same 124 range added a paragraph on autonomy citing the same dissertation. I wouldn't be surprised if other edits from the same range show the same pattern: we're dealing with someone trying to plug their own research. ] (]) 04:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*It's late, and my fingers are getting cold. But a quick search of our article space sees the same stuff (different parts from the same study on widely diverging topics) cited in ], ], ], ], ], and a ton of other articles. They all are phrased like "Dr Jenia Meng organized an an Eurasian survey of university students" or "The initiator and principle investigator of the survey, Dr Jenia Meng...". This is spam, total self-promotion (typically one single edit per IP address (from Sydney and Wentworthville), suggesting that the IP hopping is, if not deliberate, then at least very convenient), and it need to be taken care of. I hope some of you who do rangeblocks will look into it (simply search for the name--plenty of unadulterated vanity) and can dig up at least a few rangeblocks; I did note some variety, but I'm sure at least a couple can be done. ] (]) 04:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::The diversity of the articles listed above demonstrated Dr Meng's wild spread contributions (covers many disciplines) to science. It just proved the importance of Meng's work. She established 9 math indexes and discovered hundreds correlations. Many journal papers can only report one correlation they discovered. Which means Meng's thesis is equivalent to hundreds papers.] (]) 09:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Bullshit (speaking as an academic). ] (]) 14:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Seconded. It's a textbook case of ]. I'm removing more now, but someone should check again tomorrow once the search lists update to make sure we don't miss any. ] (]) 23:21, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::An academic uses the word 'Bullshit'? Which is your field of study Drmies? Coarse language? Judging by your past comment, you don't seem understand science. I suspect you are some sort of arts major] (]) 00:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*I've run into Chrissy occasionally, where medical and veterinary content intersects, and have always found her to be well-informed and reasonable. I couldn't find one review of Meng's thesis or any significant citations and this looks to me like pure spamming. I wouldn't have any objection to someone going through the and blanket-deleting all of it, though it would be best if the person who did that had some understanding of the field (Chrissy or Startswithj?), so worthwhile text could be saved with a "citation needed" tag (wiki markup is <nowiki>{{cn}}</nowiki>), or saved citing another, reliable, source. --] (] · ] · ]) 08:41, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Did you see this on TP? " reviews (includes journal articles) from peers. I copy it to here again since you can't read. 'Very positive reviews of the book from peers can be found . Reviewers include ] Chief editor of encyclopedia of animal welfare and animal rights , CEO of Humane society international. ' There are many articles including several journal/book articles that reviewed and cited the work. Go to the bottom of the page." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
*In other news, I just semi-protected the talk page after further claims of "discrimination" and "ownership". See also ], "Meng's work", where I left a note on the IP hopping, which I think can safely be said to be a conscious tactic. Can we please get a rangeblocker to look at the IPs? ] (]) 14:21, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**It might be better to set up an ]. ] (]) 23:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::This is a good idea, a wonderful example of intellectual censorship. | |||
] (]) 00:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::: It's only needed become someone (I won't say whom) is refusing to follow the rules of Misplaced Pages that they agreed to. Edit filters and blocks are reserved for those who are just too damn proud to actually ''listen'' when the rules are laid out in black and white. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:28, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::'refusing to follow the rules of Misplaced Pages that they agreed to' | |||
:::Can you provide evidence to support you claim? Which editor agreed about what? | |||
:::This is how things works here: it is advertised to be open and free place. But when you actually get in, you found people throw all different sort of rules at you, bully you, insult you, harass you, tell you what you are doing is wrong, act as if they are your master(sick). They form gangs, play politics/bureaucracy, One thing I found very annoy is the bad (aggressive, uncivil, manipulative) people here will usually assume bad faith of you too. They are bad, so they think everyone is as bad as them, even if you are entirely different. I am interested in science/truth, but many people are here for different reasons. I am edit in good faith, because I think public should have access to good(scientific/up-to-date/balanced) knowledge for free. | |||
] (]) 01:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::: The minute you clicked "Save page" even once, you agreed to the rules of Misplaced Pages - the Terms of Use were right there every time. Why not step back and actually read them, and stop making a rather public nuisance of yourself - I actually feel rather embarassed on your behalf - you come across as reasonably intelligent and learnéd, but you're behaving like a bit of a boor <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 10:53, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*For anyone who is interested (and {{U|Anthonyhcole}}, {{U|SmartSE}}, {{U|EatsShootsAndLeaves}}, I appreciate your help), look through my recent contributions. To keep a record, I've issued a (hollow) final warning to every IP responsible for those edits. Look also at the articles where they stuck that thing in--the range is mindboggling. I was getting ready to prepare a case for an edit filter, and I'm glad it was brought up here: it's necessary. If anyone besides me is interested in digging, check {{U|23dx5assd}}. ] (]) 01:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**There is (was) also {{user|SSZvH7N5n8}}. 23dx5assd seems to be the account they created after stopping using that one. ] (]) 10:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*::I'm late to this party, but I have worked with DrChrissy on a number of articles and find this editor to be a person who normally follows AGF very well, and if anything has a generally pro-animal viewpoint, so these hardcore animal-rights-toned IP attacks, and the character of their attacks, (the IP 124.168.50.211 talks like a sock (accusations of ownership and comments like "respect other editors", among other things) really are quite WP:FRINGE and the sorts of additions/arguments that should be promptly rejected out offhand without need for a huge talk page dramafest. (And thank you, Drmies, for your reverts on several pages on my watchlist) Frankly, whenever the fringe extremists (on either side) hit an animal welfare article, the crazy goes from zero to 60 in 2.5 seconds or less. I'm troubled that the attitude that a good, established editor doesn't "come with clean hands" and thus the trolls are given a free pass. This seems to be happening to several editors across all areas of wikipedia. Just saying that I respect DrChrissy and that DrChrissy's position is apt to be the accurate one. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Thanks for those comments, and thanks also to all the other editors and administrators who have been involved in this. I think an enormous amount of time has been spent on this, but WP is a better place for it. Keep up the good work.__] (]) 20:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::By way of an even later late comment, I've been held away from my usual level of editing because of some personal reasons, and am just now trying to get caught up on my watchlist backlog, so I just noticed this incident now. I want to confirm what other editors have said about DrChrissy being a responsible editor. I also want to report that, for almost as long as I've been editing here, I keep seeing accounts pop up that seem to exist only for the purpose of spamming citations to Jenia Meng. It's been going on repeatedly for a very long time, and my experience has been that the representations of Dr. Meng's work tend to be conspicuously ]. --] (]) 20:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Sockpuppetry, COI, and WP:OWN by John2690, Pineplanner, and IP editors == | |||
*{{userlinks|John2690}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Pineplanner}} | |||
*{{userlinks|24.111.45.78}} | |||
*{{userlinks|64.17.66.102}} | |||
*{{userlinks|75.168.127.211}} | |||
The articles I will be most mentioning are ] and ] plus a article deleted in 2009- ]. I'll use PC, NJ, and NLJ when referring to these articles. | |||
I'll start with NLJ. This article was created over 4 years ago by John 2690. With almost 100% certainly, we can say that editor John 2690 is Nathan L. Johnson. The proof lies in this. The email address for Johnson being the same as the name of the editor. Also check out this talk page thread | |||
An editor tried to CSD it was deemed inappropriate for speedy deletion. So an AFD took place which ended in consensus for deletion. During that AFD however, two of the IPs above, 64 and 75, voted to keep the Johnson article. These IPs have limited edit histories but they are very similar to that of John2690. John2690's editing work has mostly involved articles about Johnson, Pine City, or events and people associated with PC and its surrounding areas. | |||
Shortly after the AFD, John2690 tried recreating an article on himself, this time named ] but it was speedy deleted. In this talk thread an editor tried to make it clear to John2690 that creating an article about himself was clearly unacceptable. | |||
From September 2009 to December 2012, no further attempts were made to recreate an article on Nathan Johnson. John2690 and IP 24 made many edits to the Pine City article. Over a three year period, several editors tried to clean up PC's notable people and events sections only to have their edits reverted by either IP24 or John2690. Here is a short but not complete list. | |||
*1 edit reverted by IP 24 | |||
*2 edit reverted by IP 24 | |||
*3 edit reverted by IP 24 | |||
*4 edit reverted by IP 64 | |||
*5 edit undid by IP 24 with the edit summary 'They may not merit their own wiki pages but are def notable'. One of the persons being readded to the notable people list was Nathan Johnson. | |||
*6 this edit and this edit done by a editor with an exemplary history of working on a neighboring state's articles, are reverted here and here | |||
There is a half a dozen more instances of this. Some of the edits that were done were by IPs and some may have arguable they but were reverted without argument. | |||
Which brings us to January of this year when a brand new editor Pineplanner created ]. Nathan Johnson is a city planner for Pine City. It has to believed Pineplanner is Johnson and again he is created an article about himself. After creating the newest article, Pineplanner made no further edits. | |||
IP 24 and John2690 have both been involved with editing the new article. When I attempted to fix the article for being overcategorized and put in a proper category instead, I got reverted. | |||
I soon discovered that the latest article was a recreation of a deleted article, so I nominated it for speedy deletion. Speedy deletion was declined it, so I AFD it. | |||
We have here an editor who created an article about himself, attempted to subvert an AFD by editing offline, and has pretty much claimed ownership to at least one article. We have sockpuppetry, COI issues, plus WP:OWN. I bring it here to ANI because I feel something needs to be done.] 16:44, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Out of curiosity - does anything necessitate bringing this to ANI instead of ]? ] 17:08, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Because what is being done at Pine City Minnesota isn't sockpuppetry. The creation of articles about himself is a COI issue. That he is socking too, needs to be brought up. SPI won't do anything on the COI or OWN issues I describe above.] 17:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::There's also ], though I believe SPI would serve just as well for dealing with the socking issue. ] 17:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Lou Sander == | |||
{{archive top|result=Lou Sander has anything that can be perceived as canvassing. Everything afterwards has just spiraled out into a argument with nothing useful being brought to bear. Warnings all around that sarcasm, accusations, and canvassing are not helpful consensus (or encyclopedia) builders.--v/r - ]] 16:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
* {{userlinks|Lou Sander}} | |||
User does some ], inviting six people to join a thread named "determining the level of consensus", all of whom share his perspective; he invites nobody else. . He apparently denies that he was canvassing (or otherwise his comment is too cryptic). User has been on WP for many years (reportedly a decade). The article in question, ], is under ArbCom/pseudoscience. ] (]) 19:56, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Community consensus is that ] applies. Attempting to subvert this consensus by bringing in a number of editors who are fans of the subject in question is really quite disingenuous. ] (]) 20:08, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Canvassing in a nutshell: "When notifying other editors of discussions, keep the number of notifications small, keep the message text neutral, and don't preselect recipients according to their established opinions." and "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve ]." The number was small, the message text was neutral, recipients were selected because they exhibited interest and ability in responding to requests for opinions, in being polite, in refraining from accusing and lecturing, etc. The intent to improve the quality of discussion was explicit in the notifications. ] (]) 20:45, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::: User contacted only those who shared the user's opinion; nobody else. Relevant clause is "don't preselect recipients according to their established opinions". ] (]) 20:54, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Can you demonstrate that Lou Sander knew ahead of time that all 6 participants would agree with him? It's not canvassing if he picks 6 random people and they all share his opinion because ''they all base it on the same policy''. You have to demonstrate he knew of their opinion ahead of time and specifically picked them to skew consensus.--v/r - ]] 21:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Perhaps through morphic field Lou Sander "knew" they would participate in a particular way, however, it is more likely that he simply had a very strong assumed that would because they were all people who had spoken on the same side of the issues as Lou Sander had on several previous "discussions" on the Sheldrake page, so they are in no way a "random" audience.-- ] 21:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::How would I know if they shared my opinion? Nobody but me had responded substantively to ] two-day-old anonymously posted good faith attempt to collect opinions. OTOH, there had been massive unresolved discussions of whether Sheldrake could be called a biologist. (This was being written while ] posted the above comment). ] (]) 21:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Very bad form by an experienced editor. (Also e/c) --] (]) 21:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Those following the page know the opinions held by the six people. It didn't occur to me that Lou would adopt the strategy of denying that. I'll gather some diffs. ] (]) 21:29, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Yeah, if it can be demonstrated that Lou could reasonably have assumed they would support him, then it's a canvassing violation.--v/r - ]] 21:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
], can you give me a ballpark of what you would accept as evidence? Like how many diffs for each person establishing their opinion? Must they connect directly above/below a comment by Lou? And must I gather diffs from everyone on the other "side" as well in order to show they hold the opposing opinion? This is a laborious exercise, and it would seem canvassing could never be proven using this standard: the person could always say "How would I know what their opinion is?" or "I never read what's in that diff". In a strict technical sense that is true, which would make ] a useless document. ] (]) 21:46, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Can you show me that there was reason to suspect that these six editors would support Lou and that other editors available in the same topic area would not. I don't need a bunch of diffs, I only need what shows me that Lou could know their opinion before he invited them.--v/r - ]] 21:56, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::]]: Is it legitimate for me to respond here? I'm happy to explain why those who were chosen were chosen. ] (]) 22:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I don't see why it wouldn't be. I'm sorry if it seems like I've stepped in to take some kind of control of this thread, I've really spent 0 time looking into this at all and I am only speaking to policy here.--v/r - ]] 22:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
], the editors contacted have expressed their opinions as wanting the article to be more favorable to Sheldrake (if you ask me, they want to ignore ] and other portions of ]). If you cannot take the word of participating editors, then you would need to read a significant portion of talk page history. That is the only way to establish who believes what on each side of the isle. This would translate to many, many, many diffs. I know of no other way to conclusively demonstrate canvassing, and it frankly seems like an impossible task. ] (]) 22:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Can you give me a link to a conversation where this would become evident? It may seem impossible, but if you want to make a claim of canvassing, you have to be able to demonstrate it (per ]).--v/r - ]] 22:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::], if you cannot trust the common-sense knowledge of the participating editors on the page, then the opinion of each individual on each side of the isle must be established through diffs. This is a herculean task. It's not embodied by a single conversation. It will take about 100 diffs or more to show this to you. I have a hard time believing that such standards have ever been employed in the history of canvassing complaints, but I will try anyway. Unless you have a better idea? ] (]) 22:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::What exactly common sense knowledge are you speaking of? Are you saying it is common sense that Lou approached editors sympathetic to his position? That's not at all how Misplaced Pages works. It is the standard that complaints require evidence, the heavier the complaint the more evidence required. Per ]: "Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki." You have the burden of proof that the threshold for the accusation of canvassing. Specifically, you are accusing Lou of votestacking, so then you must prove that per ] this happened: "Posting messages to users selected based on their known opinions (which may be made known by a userbox, user category, or prior statement). Vote-banking involves recruiting editors perceived as having a common viewpoint for a group, similar to a political party, in the expectation that notifying the group of any discussion related to that viewpoint will result in a numerical advantage, much as a form of prearranged vote stacking." I do not know how many diffs that takes you, but I've seen canvassing proven in much less than 100 diffs (seen it in a single URL to a twitter feed). But you have a doubly-hard task because not only do you have to prove that the folks he chose had a viewpoint that supported him, and he knew it, but you have to demonstrate that there was a pool of candidates who were not sympathetic to his ideas that he did not choose from proportionate to the number selected. So if 20 people support him, and 10 do not, a random sampling of 6 editors would produce ~4 that support him and ~2 that do not. Now, you may not be asked to prove all of that yourself, but you need to at least get the ball rolling by proving the first part: did Lou know the opinions of the 6 editors before he asked for their opinion.--v/r - ]] 23:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::]]: I was looking for editors who had contributed to the article and who might make rational responses to good faith requests for opinions. ] had been made two days earlier and had only drawn two responses; I thought it deserved more. Some of the editors who patrol the page regularly are, IMHO, uninterested in responding to reasonable requests for opinion. They pretty much don't do it. I didn't contact them, and I was pretty sure they had seen the request in question. (Except for one, who made an impolite non-response, they still haven't shared their opinions). All editors, of course, are welcome to respond to the request for opinion, and I don't want anyone to feel uninvited. ] (]) 23:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Lou - It's generally never a good idea to 'randomly' pick editors and invite them to opine on an article. The appearance of canvassing, even if none has actually happened, is enough to derail consensus development. In the future, use the ] process and an Wiki bot will invite participants for you. However, to address what you said specifically, your definition of 'reasonable' might be the lynch pin that sinks your battleship. When you use your own judgement to determine what's reasonable, your bias begins to influence your decision. That bias is what causes vote stacking. You might think you're asking 'reasonable' editors, but when 'reasonable editors' can essentially be defined as 'editors who agree with me' then it's almost definitely vote stacking. Also, sometimes we're not aware of our own bias. Not trying to be offensive, but give ] a read over and you might begin to understand why you just shouldn't even do anything resembling canvassing at all. Please do not ever do this again.--v/r - ]] 23:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::]: Got it. Thanks. ] (]) 02:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
], my question now is practical: how many diffs per person would satisfy this? Would 7 diffs per person be enough to establish the person's viewpoint on Sheldrakian matters? This is still subjective no matter how you look at it. Must interaction be shown between each person and Lou? What's to prevent him from saying he didn't see a comment? Or what's to prevent the fail-safe stance of "How could I know what another person would vote?" And what would be the result if it is satisfactorily proven? We are talking about a highly disruptive user here ( was the long-form complaint) and perhaps spending time on the canvassing issue is not the best approach. ] (]) 23:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Vzaak - You're asking for an objective answer about a subjective question. If you have a great diff showing Lou and one of the 6 conversing about that specific topic and Lou says "I'll let you know if I ever need your support", then that's enough for that 1 person. If you have 100 diffs from another person and they are being entirely vague about their opinion in all of them, then it won't be enough. Give as many diffs you think satisfies your point and if more are needed, someone will ask for more.--v/r - ]] 01:08, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::], could you please answer the other questions I asked? I think I deserve to know before undertaking such a huge project that appears to be without precedent in the ANI archives of canvassing complaints. ] (]) 04:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I don't claim any knowledge of this field, but I'm going from past readings of ANI. You might provide as few as 1 diff, provided that diff somehow encompassed the whole group of editors who are alleged to be canvassed, to 1 diff per editor who was allegedly canvassed, assuming that Lou Sanders had on-wiki conversations about this with each editor individually, up to the sky-as-a-limit in terms of numbers of diffs or a talk page thread, provided that collectively the only conclusion that can be arrived at was that each editor was canvassed. Given that you are alleging 6 editors were canvassed, you've got your work cut out for you. ] (]) 09:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Ian is topic banned from Plasma Physics and astrophysics broadly construed for fringe POV pushing. Anna is a parapsychologist, Tento2 has strong interests in astrology and is possibly an astrologer. Liz denied that Tumbleman was a troll (and one that was sympathetic to Sheldrake) and a sockpuppeteer despite overwhelming evidence and has made vague accusations that "the other side" are using sock puppets. There are a great many editors who could have been informed and have been quite active on the talk page but were not because they take a more skeptical approach, ] (]) 07:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: He titles the section heading with "Sheldrake/Tumbleman" although the section on the talk page has nothing to do with Tumbleman who had been indeffed several days before. Liz has been an and (uncollapse the Tumbleman results) Iantresman and Askahrc also speak in favor of him. None of the people who spoke against his actions in the AE were notified by Lou Sander. -- ] 09:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::if you look at you will find in support of the idea (indeffed user Tumbleman), iantresman, Annalisa Ventola. none of the people speaking against the use of the word "hypothesis" were in the "randomly" selected users notified by Lou Sander. Do you need more? I hate to have people have to slog through the mire on this topic.-- ] 09:47, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
(1) ]'s request seems little different to the request made my ] on the Fringe Theory Noticeboard on 7 August and again on 9 September and ] on 9 October (2) ] "is perfectly acceptable provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion" (3) I am not impressed by the tactics used by some of the editors here, such as ]'s comment (a) warning me of my non-related topic ban (b) using a number of editors' affiliations and perceived beliefs to attack them per ] --] (]) 10:40, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: I think your topic ban {{user|Iantresman}} is entirely relevant since it highlights your lack of basic ] to understand the basic ] and ] behind scientific/pseudoscienfic topics, combined with an ability to be disruptive to Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 10:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::If {{user|Iantresman}} cannot see the difference between asking for help on a the Fringe Theory Noticeboard, for anybody to see, and seeking out editors on their talk pages .......? --] (]) 10:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I can demonstrate ] repetition of arguments on the Sheldrake talk page if you prefer Ian. Specifically with regards to your use of material derived from the well known supporter of parapsychology ] and representing his words as the opinions of the University of Cambridge instead, and other material along a similar vein (repeatedly), ] (]) 10:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::@] It is not particularly constructive to question my competence, and others, as it comes across as both incivil, and a very poor "argument". | |||
:::@] I see the same arguments and points on both sides, which I believe is called "disagreement". But while I respect and will fight for your right to have alternative views, and describe them in articles, I find it repugnant that you seek to ban editors that merely disagree with you. --] (]) 11:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::The diff of Barney you show is him replying to an editor who was subsequently blocked for a variety of reasons, including competency issues (]). I will also provide the specific material of ] and your representation of material by Josephson as being implicitly endorsed by the University of Cambridge, and your ignoring of Josephson's controversial positions on Cold fusion, bubble fusion, telepathy, etc etc, when using him as a source, when I return later today, ] (]) 11:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::(1) There is no justification for incivility, and I can't believe that you think it is OK to be incivil to somone who may subsequently be banned. If there is an issue, you criticise the behaviour (or the content), but not the editor. (2) I specifically said "there is no suggestion that the University officially endorses Sheldrake's or Josephson's views" (3) For the record, I find your tone and confrontational approach to be most incivil and unhelpful, and it is certainly not the constructive approach to editing I would expect from an experienced and knowledgeable editor. --] (]) 13:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::It is not uncivil to point out a competency issue, as Barney has done. "For the record, I find your tone and confrontational approach to be most incivil and unhelpful ..." Considering I filed the Arbitration enforcement request from which you were topic banned for POV pushing, I think I can understand why you might not like my approach and characterise it negatively. In your comment you highlighted: : "''I would imagine that if the University thought there was any impropriety, adverse publicity, or even "pseudoscience", then they would drop the listing for the lecture like a hot potato.''" That is trying to use the University to give it extra legitimacy. As was explained already before that, Josephson also invited a homeopath , and the university did nothing there either. Universities seldom interfere with groups within their university, even the mind-matter unification project that Josephson runs, ] (]) 15:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I received a notice about this discussion on my Talk Page so I guess I'll weigh in. Personally, I don't know what ]'s perspective is on this Sheldrake mess so I don't see how I could share it. The only opinion I have about this war of words is that I don't like to see Editors being bullied (regardless of the views they hold). I guess I'm on the same side of any Editor who thinks that discussion should be civil and everyone deserves a chance to be heard as long as they are not offensive or disruptive. And, I don't know how to emphasize this enough, this stance means defending people whether or not I share their point of view or opinion. | |||
I haven't looked at the Sheldrake Talk Page in over a week and I've never edited the article. Lou thought I'd be a neutral voice in what is a heated discussion which, given this posting by ], shows no sign of deescalating. | |||
You know what would be a radical idea? Working with those who hold different opinions than your own to come to a consensus wording for this article that you all can live with rather than coming to AE or AN/I to challenge those Editors with whom you disagree. If all of this effort devoted to seeking sanctions against your ideological opponents was actually spent on resolving this dispute (say, in ]), I think that Misplaced Pages would be a better place and I think it would lead to a stronger Sheldrake article. But it has become too much of a ] now and Editors seem to care more about winning than reaching a consensus. | |||
The biggest tragedy that shows how dysfunctional this argument has become is that now I've advocated dispute resolution and consensus building, I expect that I'll be accused of making a ]. I wish Editors working on this BLP could become more detached and objective but I'm not optimistic about this occurring. But now, if you don't mind, I'm going back to working on editing Misplaced Pages rather participating in these needless proceedings. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 12:08, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:"I don't know what ]'s perspective is on this Sheldrake mess so I don't see how I could share it." Two people can't share the same perspective if one of them isn't explicitly ''aware'' of the other's perspective? That's great reasoning. ] (]) 12:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Unfortunately Liz, you have been rather quick to defend people ''without looking at or addressing the actual evidence'' (it's quite obvious you haven't even clicked on the links, particularly at ] where you say " In fact, I don't think you will actually see this Tumbleman participating in these diffs,", which is directly contradicted by the links themselves, you also ignore the evidence that ''directly connects'' the forum troll to the[REDACTED] editor of the same name, which was also presented), including the accusation that because there is so much evidence that is itself evidence that he was innocent ("''the detail some Editors have devoted to this sock investigation is definitely over-kill and I am a bit stunned at the apparent time and energy spent on compiling "evidence" and the minute dissection of how you phrase things and spell words''" ), in the case of Tumbleman. In that case, 3 sockpuppets were found, 2 of the sock puppets had similar behaviour to Tumbleman himself, and including his idiosyncratic style: Oh boy chicken again and KateGompert and geolocated to the same region as Tumbleman. | |||
:You have principally found your role to try to justify Tumbleman being allowed to edit despite his problematic behaviour, where the evidence was quite convincing, but then you also hinted that other editors are sockpuppets without evidence because they were competent (i.e Dan_skeptic, as at Tumbleman SPI) and new ("''And I see newly created accounts arguing pro- and anti-Sheldrake so I think there are socks on both sides''"). | |||
:Part of the problem with this article is people making unfounded accusations against people, and the same people dismissing well founded evidence of sockpuppetry (including multiple lines of evidence in the Tumbleman case, which lead to Tumbleman and his obvious sock puppets being blocked, as ] and show). | |||
:Liz, you seem to be of the ] that all opinions are equally valid, and that the only difference between them is culture and paradigm, so everyone, by definition, is as bad each other and so the best thing to do is have to "camps" compete; that science should be balanced against irrationality (or the "not rational, measurable or scientific" in your words"). ] (]) 14:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Liz, as I wrote to you before, there is room for your perspective, but you do yourself a disservice by supporting people solely because you perceive them as being on your side. Unless you are alleging a conspiracy among six admins, you're going to have to accept WP's verdict that Tumbleman was . At least look at the evidence. Lou Sander is also , as you can see just from this ANI: he doesn't acknowledge that he was canvassing, just like he didn't acknowledge his sockpuppetry even after a year-long block for sockpuppetry. ] (]) 16:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::'''Pot calling the kettle black!''' I can go to any article about what skeptics call "fringe" subjects, make a single edit and attract a crowd of skeptics. Misplaced Pages has institutionalized a ] on which Barney the barney barney requested help from other editors. And again. Then Dan skeptic requested more help specifically attacking editors Craig Weiler, Tumbleman and Iantresman. There, Barney even suggested banning Tumbleman as a solution. It goes on! | |||
::IRWolfie, Vzaak and Barney have all participated in this organized canvassing for help. | |||
::Make no mistake, Skeptics here are being painted with the same brush used by the public for the . Virtually all of the skeptics here have quoted James Randi and his foundation is clearly a sponsor for the GSM. Susan Gerbic is clearly canvassing for help making articles such as the Rupert Sheldrake article agree with the James Randi skeptical point of view. It might be a goo idea to distinguish yourself from the GSM! | |||
::Attacking Lou Sander for canvassing can only be seen as a latent attempt to eliminate yet another editor calling for fair treatment of a living person. Your blind drive for control of these articles has ruined Misplaced Pages. Please try to act for the greater good and not just the GSM. ] (]) 17:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::That's highly conspiratorial. No editor of the Rupert Sheldrake page is in the Guerilla Skeptics (calling it a movement is amusing) and I am not either (although I do have a James Randi T-Shirt!). ] is quite open about which pages they have edited (it's their primary way of promoting[REDACTED] editing); it seems mostly to be a a small team that give advice on how to edit articles to comply with policy and guidelines; mostly the editors who use their help write about notable skeptics and related. Skeptics aren't nasty bogeymen who want to label everything as nonsense. ] (]) 09:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: I don't care about your personal judgment of me. I don't care about this completely inconsequential argument over '''one''' article on Misplaced Pages that you seem to care so desperately about. This is truly a tempest in a teapot. What a colossal waste of energy you are expending on this. I've explained my position which you can take on faith or not. | |||
:: So, go ahead, rage on...I think there will quickly come a time when the regulars here at the AN/I board will tire of hearing the name of ] and all the accompanying drama and will wonder why you can't all move on. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 18:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::As one might wonder why '''''you''''' cannot seem to move on, but continue to press a non-existent issue regarding Tumbleman. Your name, which hardly ever appeared here before, is suddenly here multiple times on a daily basis, as you seem to have appointed yourself an ombudsman of sorts. Please don't do that, go edit some articles, it's much more rewarding, and infinitely more useful to the project than what you're doing here. '''''Really'''''. ] (]) 04:13, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::: I am so, so sorry that I ignored the rule that one can only visit AN/I once a day. I'll try to follow the sterling example of those with more experience than I, who know better than to psychoanalyze other Editors. And thank you so much for the advice to edit articles, 54.04% of my edits are to articles but I'll try to do better. I appreciate your thoughtful and caring words, ], it's Editors like you that inspire others. '''''Peace'''''. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 16:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::My thanks go out to the diligent editor who notified me about this ANI thread. My name appears precisely zero times in the OP's post. I can't find it anywhere else in the ANI thread, either. The OP did not notify me of the thread. The OP is generally a very careful editor, who once actually tutored me in the etiquette of notifying people when you put one of their diffs in a noticeboard thread. But I guess the editor who DID notify me must have concluded that I'm one of the super-terrific 6. So I read through this whole ANI thread, and '''there's''' an hour of my life I'll never get back. I assume the distinguished editor from the great state of High Dudgeon notified me about this thread because of to my talk page. If this was canvassing, it was damned ineffective canvassing. I'm all over that talk page. The thread I was invited to review is one in which I didn't feel I had anything useful to add. So I didn't. Can we please do something fun now? I know of a dart team that's holding goalie tryouts. ] (]) 22:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Agh, have just come into WP today as a reader, saw the notice about a post, saw the notice from Lou (which I haven't had time to check yet) and also saw the notice about this discussion concerning "an issue with which you may have been involved". I'm posting now without being fully informed but can say this: I am not a fan of Sheldrake or a supporter of his work, nor do I have a bias towards him, nor do any of my posts present arguments that would show favour towards his views. I'm an independent editor, don't know Lou or what his/her views are, and don't really care because (as my posts show) I'm quite comfortable agreeing with any or all editors on the points that I agree with whilst disagreeing with them when I don't think their views are in line with my understanding of WP policies and aims. ] (]) 11:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== IP insists on double voting == | |||
{{archive top|result=IP given a block for the duration of the move request and also advised in the future to be more open to advice from others.--v/r - ]] 17:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
An IP has requested a move of ] at ]. He or she added a separate support vote, which is proscribed at ]. He or she also made another comment with a bolded support vote (albeit followed by "(again)"). Per normal practice, I struck those duplicate votes, but the IP reverted me twice, insisting I was "changing" his or her vote. Rather than edit warring over this, I'd appreciate an outside party intervening, although I can't guarantee that this isn't a case of ]. The issue has been discussed at ] and ]. Thanks, ] (]) 19:34, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Didn't vote twice. Used the words "Support (again)". It was VERY clear that it was supporting the discussion thread. I'm somewhat new to Misplaced Pages -- just over a year or 18 months and didn't know that you cant use the words "Support Again". Or can you? This user, BDD, apparently changed my first vote by striking it. At the most, he/she should have contacted my on my talk page before striking ANY of my votes. Its not a formal voting procedure so it's not that big of a deal to me. But my words were VERY VERY clear for all to read. This complaint should not be here on this Admin site, instead, BBD should apologize and try to reach an agreement. Especially if BBD is a senior user who has made edits for over 9 years since January of 2004. ] (]) 19:44, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Striking the supports gives the indication that someone who had previously supported is no longer supporting, I have replaced the "supports" with "comment", since they are comments by the OP. ] ] 19:47, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you, Ryan. I would've been happy with that solution, but it seems the IP . --] (]) 19:56, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Wrong. I'm agreeing with another writers comments who I'm allowed to quote. DO NOT change my vote. ] (]) 19:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::172, please change either of your comments so there's only one bold '''support''' from you on the talk page. <small>]</small> 20:40, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Could you point out the policy please?] (]) 20:46, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::For the life of me, I can't remember where I read about this. Regardless, it is considered standard protocol to only '''Support''' or '''Oppose''' once. Should you wish to show your support for another editor's position without giving the impression of multiple votes, you may consider using terms such as '''Agree with (editor's name) above''' or '''Concur with above'''. ] (]) 21:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Sure; see ] -- that space down near the bottom between "respect and civility" and "not having firm rules." The written rules often follow practices which involve over time, and the practice is just one big bold support or oppose. <small>]</small> 21:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::@IP: "Support (again)" could easily be interpreted as "Supporting, just as I did the last time this issue came up", so it's easy to see it as an attempt to fool the closer into counting two votes from one person. The custom (who '''''cares''''' whether it's written down or not, we're here '''''telling you''''' that it's how things are done around here) is for clarity each editor gets one "support" or "oppose" heading per discussion. Please do not reinstate the "Support (again)", which goes against accepted community behavior. ] (]) 05:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Sorry, but could you tell me what you mean by this "who '''''cares''''' whether it's written down or not, we're here '''''telling you''''' that it's how things are done around here". Thanks. ] (]) 22:21, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::What he means is, even if it's not codified in writing, you should follow the established practice. The practice for most discussion processes parallels ], which includes the guidance to put a recommended course of action in bold at the start of a bulleted line. It also includes this guideline: "You can explain your earlier recommendation in response to others, but do not repeat your recommendation on a new bulleted line." In other words, only one bolded recommendation per person. —''']''' (]) 23:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::If it's not in writing how would anyone know that? I would rather have the editor answer this for themselves. But thanks because who "cares"? I do. ] (]) 01:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Continued disruption=== | |||
The IP is continuing the disruption, editing the initial move request. , , --] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Sorry, Neil, but they're my own comments and nobody elses. Misplaced Pages policy allows me to occasionally edit my comments on a talk page. And the edits are constructive edits because I've added new information which apparently you don't happen to agree with. Also, please stop editing MY comments on the talk page -- and then accusing me of the same (editing my comments). So shouldn't this be a disruption complaint about you? ] (]) 18:13, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::If you and follow ] then you should probably expect to see yourself here often. --] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Misplaced Pages allows some freedom of expression here. There is no hard and fast "rule". So move on! ] (]) 18:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Editor has of stopping. --] <sup>'']''</sup> 18:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::And now comments in the middle of other editor's comments. --] <sup>'']''</sup> 19:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Um, I'm allowed to insert a response. Seriously, stop wasting my time.] (]) 19:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::You can insert a response just not in the middle of my own. You are more than free to comment directly thereafter.--] (]) 04:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
And now edit-warring against ] and ] (revert of Koavf's ), , (last edit came after they were pointed to the guideline ). --] <sup>'']''</sup> 00:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I think you made this comment about that edit: ] - "As a general rule, the 'See also' section (on the Gen X page) should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes." at 20:55, 24 October 2013. | |||
::::::::However, again, your FACT CHECKING IS SUPER WEAK. The Gen X page does not have ANY of the links you claim it does. That's why they're at the bottom of the page --- so readers will think of related Misplaced Pages articles about other generations. | |||
::::::::Question for you personally, do you read the articles before you revert stuff? Because you're wasting alot of people's time. ] (]) 02:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Did you bother to open the navigation template? All the wikilinks are there. --] <sup>'']''</sup> 02:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
And now harassment on my talk page , , . Unheeded note to stop: --] <sup>'']''</sup> 02:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::What is the evidence of "harassment"? Telling you that "you're wasting my time" and that your "fact checking is weak" doesn't add up to your accusation. Maybe you could just take the advice and fact check your work better. Believe me it will help you in other areas of life. There needs to be some documentation of your behavior on your talk page besides what your doing here on the admin site. ] (]) 16:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Request for a bold admin=== | |||
Please take a look at the discussion above, the discussion on ] and the discussions on ]. Then, can we please have a block for User:172.250.31.151 for ], ], violation of ] and generally disruptive behavior? I think the grounds are quite clear. Thanks. ] (]) 04:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Beyond My Ken, Aren't you the one you just said (above) "'''who cares''' whether it's written down or not, we're here telling you that it's how things are done around here"? I think you might need a block for uncivil communication. And by the way, I honored the request about the "IP insists on double voting" issue --- which wasn't a double vote anyway. The one-time issue was turned into a "comment" on the Millennial Generation talk page yesterday (instead of "support (again)"). ] (]) 16:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*+1 (although there's sufficient evidence here that a milquetoast admin would be acceptable). <small>]</small> 10:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Sorry Beyond My Ken, but you need to have evidence before you suggest a complete block. The redact was just adding new constructive information to my own comments on the talk page -- NOT anyone elses -- which is completely within Misplaced Pages policy. What specific "discussions" are you referring to? What "grounds" are you referring to? You need more than "the grounds are quite clear" to even suggest it. And not "getting the point" is a ridiculous reason for a block. Could you please answer what you meant above by writing: "'''who cares''' whether it's written down or not, we're here telling you that it's how things are done around here"? ] (]) 16:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== Robert N. Rooks == | |||
{{archivetop|result=Article deleted by Drmies. Heading any arguments off at the pass. ] (]) 09:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
{{la|Robert N. Rooks}} | |||
This article needs eyes on it urgently - and probably a revdel of its history. Contributors seem keen to restore a version which contains multiple gross violations of WP:BLP policy - claims of convictions based on material in violation of ] etc. Sadly, one of the contributors is ], who as an admin one might hope would at least be familiar with elementary WP:BLP policy. ] (]) 20:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:The article does run up against ], but it is patently obvious that the information is being presented accurately. It should probably be removed, and the article should likely be deleted, but this does not require a revdel, which would interfere with the ability of the community to develop a consensus on these decisions. ] (]) 20:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:For goodness sake, I am "familiar with elementary WP:BLP policy", and, what is more, AndyTheGrump is well aware of that fact, because I have explained in several discussons why I disagree with AndyTheGrump's view of how that policy should be applied in this case, and he has seen my comments in at least two of those discussions, since he has contributed to the discussions ''after'' I posted my comments there: . ] (]) 21:07, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Sorry? Have you actually read the post below? And are you suggesting that material cited to supposed 'court documents' hosted on the website of a business that Rooks has been in conflict with isn't in violation of WP:BLP policy? ] (]) 21:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::(1) I wrote the above comment without seeing your comment below, but was prevented from posting it immediately, first by an edit conflict and then by some sort of problem with my browser stopping responding. (2) I was responding to the suggestion that I was not "familiar with elementary WP:BLP policy". The fact that the documents cited were copies on the website of a business that Rooks has been in litigation with is evidently relevant to whether they are reliable, but I had not noticed that fact (nor, so far as I am aware, had you pointed it out) and it is utterly irrelevant to the issue of whether I am or am not "familiar with elementary WP:BLP policy". ] (]) 21:33, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::In which case, you should be aware that per ] we do not cite (legitimate) court documents: " Do ''not'' use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person". Clear and unequivocal policy. Policy you seemed to be suggesting was not relevant. ] (]) 21:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::It is 'patently obvious' that the restored article grossly violated WP:BLP policy - not only was it citing court records in clear and unequivocal violation of ], but it was also citing supposed 'court records' actually hosted on the website of a business that Rooks has evidently been in litigation with. Frankly, I could hardly think of a way to violate WP:BLP policy any further... ] (]) 20:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Don't get your knickers in a twist, Andy, and realize that crow without hot sauce is not good eats. You should know of a dozen/million ways to make grosser BLP violations; the less high-handed your rhetoric, the more likely it is that someone will listen. ] (]) 00:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Don't hate me, but I believe that Andy is right. Mind you, that does not mean that I am endorsing any of his overblown statements or accusations; I think that JBW is well aware of various guidelines but perhaps weighs things slightly differently. In my opinion, the article is so negative that it should not be sourced to such primary sources as are given (completely, except for one little SF Weekly article), and I will act accordingly by deleting it as a BLP violation. {{U|Gaijin42}} and JamesBWatson, you know I respect your judgment, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. ] (]) 02:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*I have thought about this at considerable length, and decided that I was mistaken in declining the speedy deletion nomination as an attack page. I intended to come back and delete the article, but by the time I had a chance to get back on line Drmies had already deleted it. I believe I was reading CSD G10 too narrowly. I also think that I was giving too much weight to some aspects of the BLP policy and too little to other aspects. I would respectfully suggest, however, that AndyTheGrump may like to think carefully about the way he presented his case, and consider whether future cases might perhaps be better handled in a different way. It is entirely possible that I might have changed my mind on this much sooner had my attention been focussed purely on the issues in the article, rather than being distracted into defending myself against accusations of personal failure. ] (]) 07:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== Block of user 108.95.180.195 == | |||
I am requesting that ] be blocked permanently. This user refuses to establish a proper username and instead is using an IP address 108.95.180.195, which registered to AT&T Internet Services. The user has made over 500 disruptive edits and has been warned to cease by ], ], ], ] and myself. The user's ] and speak for themselves.] (]) 20:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:There is, of course, no requirement that a user "establish a proper username". As to disruption, I looked at the last few edits in the contribs, and they seem to be very minor formatting changes (many making sure that "Production notes is a bulleted list) but I don't see significant disruption there. Perhaps you would indicate specifically which edits are disruptive and how? I may well be missing something. ] ] 21:11, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I'm seeing a lot of productive edits. I'm more concerned by Oanabay's statement regarding establishing a username above and am extremely concerned by "". Without diffs from Oanabay, I can't be sure that the IP's edits were MoS violations, but even if they were Oanabay handled it the worst possible way. ] ] 21:25, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree with ] on this. ] ] 21:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::The point is being missed here almost in its entirety. This user is inserting incorrect running times on an endless amount of articles, many that I have had to undo. There have also been no less than three other users who have advised this user to stop making constant edits without describing the edits. The establishing of a proper username is minor and is just an observation. I wrote "" because this user had been warned several times by four different user to cease the disruption without explaining. Probably not my best moment on Wiki, but validated. Aside from adding incorrect running times, the user is doing significant vandalism by undoing corrections made per ] by ]. Here are just some examples: ,, , ,. See also , , , , , | |||
. I can list well over 150 more...] (]) 20:44, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::: Right, but you don't have the power nor authority to a) force them create a username, or b) topic ban them from any article or subset of articles. The challenge here, now that you have gotten off on the wrong foot with the editor, is to try and determine if it's actually ], or are they sincerely trying to edit in ] and have different sources, etc. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:40, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::: I have no interest in forcing them to do anything, username or ban them. I reached out to the user several times and edits were contiunally made. What is more, the user is undoing the corrections, and now other users are also reverting. I have no doubt this user believes these are ] edits; but communication is key and the user has made no effort to explain him or herself. If they have other sources, great. Let's see them when the edits are made. Edits are ] ]. ] (]) 01:35, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== User makes changes, does not use Edit summaries, has been warned. == | |||
{{archivetop|result=Boldly closing as no admin action required particularly for an editor who has an impressive record of article work.] (]) 09:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
] makes changes, does not use Edit summaries and has been warned at ]. Yours, ] (]) 20:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:He hasn't been warned about anything recently, that I can see. Anyway he doesn't read his talk page I don't think. his edit history in a nutshell. It sure is unusual, and so is his approach to making links to disambiguation pages, but I brought that up here before and the general vibe was that it's his prerogative to edit like that, it may be idiosyncratic but hey it takes all kinds, and he's not doing anything harmful or disruptive. I don't think editors are required to use edit summaries. I bet if he ran for admin he'd get a lot of votes and praise for that edit history BTW. To some people that represents an ideal edit history, I'd guess. If he's making ''bad edits'' above and beyond the occasional mistakes that we all make, that'd be different. ] (]) 23:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::He has been making tendentious changes as well. Here's the warning he got earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Cliff1911#Edit_summaries. Are you saying he does not have to pay attention. I don't like cleaning up his mess when he doesn't say why he made it. Sincerely, ] (]) 23:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Here is the most recent set. Without Edit Summaries, there is no way to tell if these changes are based on anything other than caprice: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=List_of_newspaper_columnists&diff=578456667&oldid=578454817. ] (]) 23:44, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::*Holy moly Herostratus. And we're here asking them to mess up that remarkable, all-red pie? I've never seen anything like it. The other way around is more likely to occur. But, this is a collaborative project, and GeorgeLouis's point is well taken ("caprice"). A case in point is , that they were asked about on their talk page ("Steve McQueen") in 2009.<p>And to get even more serious (like twice starting a sentence with a conjunction), editors have been blocked (temporarily) as an attention getter, and editors have been blocked for being uncommunicative (not responding to talk page messages, board threads, warnings, etc.). Herostratus, you have expressed your potential unhappiness on that talk page, and I left a templated note long ago. In fact, you're on there a couple of times (are you attracted to the silent type?), in all kinds of friendly ways, and to no avail; you probably didn't even get a "like" on your Facebook page.<p>So, I'd like to reiterate your point, Herostratus, about quality of edits. If a considerable amount of poor edits is dug up, then the incommunicativeness is an issue that should be dealt with. I'll leave that to GeorgeLouis and whoever else is interested. ] (]) 00:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Yes, but. I infer that he doesn't read his talk page and that any warnings and so forth would be not even the feeble buzzing of gnats to such a... focused... editor. Therefore, as a practical matter, our effective choices are binary: leave him alone, or block him. If we block him, I assume that he'd either stop editing forever or, when the block has expired, continue editing precisely as before. I wouldn't want to block him unless his net value to the Misplaced Pages is negative. He's been editing since January of 2008 and has made 24,500 edits and has only a few fairly minor quibble-type notices on his talk page (not counting the disambig-page things, which are simply notices to the effect "you might want to do this differently, but you don't have to"). That's actually pretty good for such a productive editor. So I assume that overall he's a good editor. So we should probably leave him alone. For the record, I want to reproduce the graphic showing his edit history, below. ] (]) 20:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::]<br/> | |||
::::This editor is, as far as I know, not a robot or machine. He may be from the future or an alternate universe, though. I think this image ought to go into some sort of Hall of Fame somewhere. | |||
::::It actually would be an interesting exercise to nominate this editor for the admin corps. He wouldn't accept (or decline) but that's technically a courtesy, nor answer any questions, but that's not required, nor does getting the bit require any action on his part, I don't think. I think it's safe to assume he wouldn't abuse the tools, and it'd certainly be interesting to see how this played with the "Too much time on drama, not enough on article work" crowd, who are generally numerous and vocal. ] (]) 20:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::@ Herostratus, thanks for injecting a bit of humor into what is too often a humorless workplace. Cheers! --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 21:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* That's quite a pie graph. Leave the dude alone. ] (]) 05:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== New user ] adding walls of irrelevant text to ] == | |||
Can someone please put a stop to {{user|Zhuangyilong}}, a new user who keeps adding tens of thousands of kilobytes of totally irrelevant apparently self-promotional text to ], and yesterday also to various other places on WP. Their behaviour is clearly disruptive. Doing it once can be an honest mistake, doing it twice makes one start wondering what they're up to, while doing it '''five times''', as Zhuangyilong has done, is clearly disruptive. ] ] 21:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:It's probably a throw-a-way spam account. But I've given the account a 3 hour block to get their attention to their talk page.--v/r - ]] 22:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::<small>''(I'm in Europe so I posted this problem on ANI just before calling it a day and going to bed yesterday, so I was both tired and a bit frustrated...)''</small> I don't think it's a throw-away account. Judging by the walls of machine translated text he/she posted two days ago Zhuangyilong is a Chinese scientist who is trying to get international attention for his/her work in theoretical physics, so the name of the user account is his/her real name. According to the same wall of text he/she is in his/her late sixties and probably tries to get his/her 15 minutes of fame while he/she is still around to enjoy it. It isn't vandalism since he/she isn't deliberately trying to sabotage WP in any way, it is "only" disruptive, and not done the way it should have been. Which since Zhuangyilong apparently has problems with English makes handling it a bit complicated. The best solution would probably be having someone who can write in Chinese (which I unfortunately can't...) post a message and some guidance on Zhuangyilong's talk page. ] ] 10:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::{{Non-administrator observation|admin}} I can probably try to drop the user a message. Unfortunately, I can't read/write Chinese as much as I can speak it. I'm relatively illiterate but I will give it a try. (Note:Please leave a message on ] if you want me to do so.) ]<sup>(] • ])</sup> 17:26, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Comment dropped on your talk page. ] ] 18:13, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== (One-time?) vandalism of popular (semi-protected?) page by active editor ], reported by ] == | |||
{{archivetop|status=Warned|result=Lessons learned; it is four weeks past time to move on. ] (]) 04:29, 24 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
Vandalism/POV edit: ]; occurred last month. | |||
Talk discussion here: ]. I opined that Podiaebba's judgement may be impaired by his anger and that he should take a break from editing Syria pages, but since we often clash on the Syria/chemical attack pages, he might not be interested in listening to me. Please let me know if this is too trivial to take to ANI, in which case I will keep that in mind in the future. ] (]) 03:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*One single edit is rarely a matter for ANI, and this is, as you said, a month old. So it is entirely possible that Rolf_h_nelson should have taken a break from editing last month; let's hope that they did. And with that, I propose someone close this, unless someone sees something else that's exciting. ] (]) 03:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::As the editor that warned this user a month ago, I can vouch for the fact that this appears to have been a one-off occurrence. Closing accordingly. ] (]) 04:29, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
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== User Darkness Shines is a proxy of T-banned MarshalN20 == | |||
{{archive top|result=Bold close by non-admin, there is already a thread above on this issue, no sense in duplicating it. ] <small>]</small> 10:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
This is a warning to the Misplaced Pages community. User ] is a proxy of T-banned user ]. | |||
As posted above in ] MarshalN20 is banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the history of Latin America, broadly construed '''''across all namespaces''''', Indefinite. See ]. | |||
New is that User Darkness Shines has become a proxy of MarshalN20. | |||
at 19:18, 21 October 2013 MarshalN20 induced Darkness Shines to commit ]: | |||
:''... My only recommendation is that you document all of the nonsense and later present it at AN/I or an RfCU for review...'' | |||
at 14:27, 22 October 2013 in order to represent him in the talk page of the War of the Pacific, Darkness Shines asks Marshal : | |||
:''EMail me the full quotes please'' | |||
at 14:16, 23 October 2013 | |||
Darkness_Shines explained why he preferred email (and this is a one of the finest examples of ] I have ever seen in Misplaced Pages): | |||
:'':{{reply|MarshalN20}} Spanish is not my language, posting on my talk page would violate the TBAN, mailing it to me will not.'' | |||
--Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 07:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I have {{diff|User_talk:MarshalN20|prev|578522361|let MarshallN20 know}} about this, which you didn't seem to have done. Cheers, ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 08:51, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archivebottom}} | |||
==business account== | |||
{{archive top|result=Account username-blocked. Thanks. ] (]) 10:56, 24 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
Just coming over from Commons, where I found all of :en-{{user|Lancastercavite}} carrying a prominent watermark advertising for a commercial business. A look at ] seems to confirm that this user account is associated to the company carrying the . As I am not well-versed with :en's current policy for such cases, I leave it to you to take (or not) any measures. --] (]) 08:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I've just reported this user to ]. ] (]) 08:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
Just an addendum to the above, I went over to the Commons and nominated his uploads for deletion, as there's inadequate evidence of permission, -- ] (]) 18:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Posting CIA Conspiracy Theories on Iranian Protest Articles== | |||
*{{userlinks|SpidErxD}} | |||
*{{userlinks|Rezashah4}} | |||
'''Details''' RezaShah4 has been monitoring the page ]. SpidErxD has done the following actions on his edits. | |||
* He removes sources that are from Israeli News Organizations or Human Rights Organizations. | |||
* He removes any reference to ] (who was a photographic symbol of the Protests, similar to ] in the ]). He placed on his summary that ''There was no Proof that she was killed by ''. | |||
* He makes references that the USA was responsible for the protests using sources from 2007 (two years before the protests). | |||
* He makes edits saying that the Western Media caused the protests and that only Russia provided a fair and objective view of the protests. | |||
* I contacted him and told him to stop this. In response, he told me that he was making it fair to both sides. I told him that the Sources make no reference to the Green Movement and that placing CIA conspiracy theories in the page does not make it "fair". He now just threatened to block me for Vandalism and is reverting my edits. He also called my edits Anti-Iranian, kinda like how ] called ] Anti-Russian. | |||
* I checked his Edit log and I can see that he has been threatened with block before after violating ] on the Article ] as well as using the ] page to debate share and debate conspiracy theories on there. | |||
I am tired of watching over this guy, he is using Misplaced Pages to promote Pro-Iranian Government sentiment and CIA conspiracy theories on pages such as the following. I want an Administrator to do something about this guy. He isnt trying to be fair, he is only trying to promote conspiracy theories on this page. Until he realizes that Misplaced Pages is not a forum for this, he shouldn't be on here. ] (]) 08:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== | |||
* I am not posting CIA conspiracy etc. I just mentioned Russia/Iran point of view in 2lines with RT,BBC,WhiteHouse.gov links. | |||
* I didnt removed any Israeli or Human Rights Watch links. | |||
* About ] he mentioned HumanRightsWatch] and wrote that "Basij killed Neda Agha Soltan" but a/c to HumanRightsWatch. She was not killed by basij and she was several kilometers away from protests. | |||
* I didnt said that USA was responsible for these protests. It was Russian & Iranian Govt. who said these protests were planned. | |||
* A/c to ABCnews ] and WhiteHouse.gov ] and GPO.gov ] USA is funding Anti-Regime groups and trying covert actions against Iran but he is removing these links and data mentioned in these links. | |||
* I have warned him but he removed that warning from his talk page and he is still removing Russia,Iran point of view from this article. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
: ] is just posting Pro-American Govt. material and removing Russia,Iran point of view from Article. I am not removing USA point of view and when I mentioned Russia,Iran point view in article he removed it. We should mentioned both(pro and anti) point of view in this article. ] (]) 09:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: ''Officially, Since 2006, USA is funding Anti-Regime groups in Iran'' | |||
::''According to Russian State tv, these protests were planned and they called it a Western Media propaganda.'' | |||
::''Iranian Officials accused Western Media for giving 24x7 intense coverage to these protests. Some Iranian Officials called these protests were planned by CIA'' | |||
::See what I mean? | |||
::Your references to US supporting Anti government groups make no reference to this article. The point of the HRW article was that she was not even protesting when she ::was shot, it was not disputing who the perpetrator was. ] (]) 09:08, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I just mentioned Russia,Iran point of view with RT.com & BBC Farsi links and I didn't removed American point of view from article and please let the admin decide.] (]) 09:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::To Decide what? Whether the CIA, Mickey Mouse, Or Benjamin Netanyahu was responsible for Killing Neda? Misplaced Pages is not a place for that kind of debate. ] (]) 09:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Folks, ANI is not a place for content discussions, and Wikpedia is most certainly not the place for philosophical debates or fringe discussions. We only report what REPUTABLE ] have said, and personal or fringe opinion is not acceptable. To verify a reliable source, go to the ]. To obtain ] for the addition of material, have a discussion on the article talkpage and/or follow the ] processes. However, ANI '''is''' quite happy to block those who engage in any form of ] (including slow edit-wars), those who continually refuse to accept consensus, name-calling, copyright, intentional obfuscation, etc. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 11:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: a/c to HumanRightsWatch, "She was several kilometers away from protests, she was struck in a traffic jam, and there were no Basij forces when she was killed". a/c to FoxNews,CNN etc. "She was going to protest and she was killed by Basij". a/c to FoxNews,CNN "1st chemical attack in Syria was carried out by Assad" , but a/c to UN report it was rebels who carried out that attack. I believe in HumanRights,United Nations reports not in Corporate lies. ] (]) 12:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: I never even changed the article after this guy showed up. Im tired of reverting this guys nonsense edits and arguing with me over these Conspiracy theories. ] (]) 15:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: What ''you'' believe ] ]. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 18:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::: @Bushranger are you saying to me or him? ] (]) 16:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== ] - unsound editing / competence issue== | |||
] is relatively new as a registered editor, but edited fairly extensively under the IP address ]. Wkoppel’s editing interests focus on college sports – football and basketball in the main – with a particular emphasis on the University of Michigan and Ohio State. | |||
His editing practices have been problematic from the get-go, including substantial wholesale changes without any edit summaries to guide other editors, e.g. ; unexplained and repeated removal of references that do not appear elsewhere in the article, and ; repeated alteration of content to create internal inconsistencies in an article, and , and , and changing articles in a way that is either flat wrong or inconsistent with the cited sources, and . | |||
I have, in a variety of ways, undertaken to draw this editor’s attention to these problems – template warnings, narratives with a more personal and (I would hope) approachable tone, and finally by obtaining a short block of the IP for repeated removal of content. See ] and ]. (I am also not the only editor to try to address these issues – see the IP talk page.) He has never once responded to any comment, on his Talk page or on mine. | |||
I did succeed in persuading the editor to begin including edit summaries. How helpful or enlightening they are is an open issue, but at least he does it. Other than that he has continued to edit sloppily, for example by introducing raw factual errors (several examples above are quite recent) and making significant factual edits without referring to any source, e.g. . | |||
In short, he makes bad edits; he continues to make them after the problems have been noted to him; he completely refuses to engage in discussion about them; and it’s exhausting following him around to clean up after him. I could use a bit of help. Thanks. ] (]) 11:40, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I'll just add, in anticipation of others' possible questions, that 1) very few of his edits even approach "vandalism" (repeatedly removing citations the main exception); 2) while he has reinserted a few edits following my reversion, and in spite of the problems with them, he does eventually relent, and does not edit war; and 3) many of his edits seem fine (though, without proper sourcing, who can tell). I don't really question his good faith, but rather his ability to distinguish good from bad edits, to adhere to policies re sourcing, and his willingness to work with other editors. So far the only way to keep him in check is to review literally every one of his edits, try to decide if they're good or not, and undo them if they aren't. Perhaps someone here will be more successful than me in getting him to engage. ] (]) 15:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Proposed Indefinite Block of Joefromrandb == | |||
{{archive-top|result=Although I !voted below, it's patently obvious where this is going. To summarize the key points: 1) joe is heading down a road towards an end that only he can work to avoid, but he's not there yet. 2) There's nothing inherently wrong with opening an ANI on a blocked editor - we do have processes available for the blockee to respond when needed. 2) Anyone who states that their goal (or takes up the mantle towards that end) is to have someone removed from the project, or ] until they're ready to either snap or leave is very likely to be blocked themself. 3) Baiting doesn't become anyone - it's childish and/or poor taste...and can be blockable. 4) ] is always unwise. None of this precludes that possbility that we might be back soon either with joe or any boomerangs ... but let's just stop plotting until it becomes necessary <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 10:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
Even a slight perusal of the evidence at ] confirms that there plenty of issues with the way Joefromrandb interacts with his fellow Wikipedians. He is currently serving his fourth block, a one-week vacation handed down for 'disruptive editing'. Joe's talk page lists the ensuing discussions from all four of his blocks. None of his responses were remotely acceptable. After the most recent block by JamesBWatson, Joe's first response was to tell the blocking admin to . Although I seem to recall Joe having said something to indicate that he would take to heart some of what was said at his RfC/U, it certainly appears as though nothing has changed. He still resorts to childish and malicious attacks on others and he does not promote an environment that is beneficial to anyone. His RfC/U was closed by ] due to inactivity, and a request for it to be re-closed by an admin was placed on AN, where it has been ignored for about four weeks. Enough is enough. ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 15:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' as proposer. ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 15:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' I trust the admins handling the situation to do so correctly. Latitude is nearly always given for "venting" when blocked, and there was certainly some related "provocation" in the lead up to this block. None of that is to say that Joe's behaviour is acceptable - it's not - but an indef now, in these circumstances, would be premature. I won't say either that my crystal ball doesn't see one further down the line - but I think that's a line Joe may still choose not to walk. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 15:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*How many chances does he need? ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 15:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Dunno. I don't count it that way. Is this like ''"How many roads must a man walk down?"'' I could never think of a good answer to that either. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 16:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' per AutomaticStrikeout. I don't even know Joefromrandb and am uninvolved. However, in my view, he is abusive to other users and is incapable of civility in a collaborative environment. His editing history is prolific and his disruptive actions demonstrate that we cannot waste anymore time on this individual. Enough is enough. ] (] - ]) 15:55, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::So which is it? You ''"only had short interactions"'' (which I was replying to, but multiple edit conflicted when you to ''"don't even know Joefromrandb"''? Now I'm just confused... Realise you're a Lord and all {{P}}, but nevertheless it's all very confusing, sir, without any specifics for your Support. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 16:29, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Actually, I didn't actually have any interaction with him, but the RFC evidence, his contribution history and relevant discussions on his talk page is I think enough to explain his actions. Aside from the RFC (which I commented on), I have remained above the water over this matter, and I am allowed to edit my comment until you post. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused. ] (] - ]) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Thank you. I certainly didn't mean to imply you did anything untoward - merely confusing. That's very much clearer now, I think. I am allowed, similarly, I think, to be confused. {{P}} <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 16:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' - other users with more serious problems, and with significantly longer block logs, have edited for much longer - and some continue to edit. What evidence is there of recent disruption that justifies the block being increased from 1 week to indef? ]] 16:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''', for now--though the laundry list on the RfC is mighty impressive. True, admins do allow latitude for venting during a block. It seems, though, that most of Joe's venting is done outside of block time. I can tell you that admins will not look so kindly next time, but for now, I think this is premature--even though I'm kind of biting my tongue saying this. ] (]) 16:41, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::But say it you did, nevertheless, to your credit. Joe does need to realise that eventually even the most forgiving of admins won't say that anymore - agreed. Now would probably be a good time for him to realise that, yes. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 16:50, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Yeah, one can only hope. And mind you, I understand AS bringing this up; I can't fault them for that, since it's clear that Joe has rubbed plenty of people, including me, the wrong way. ] (]) 17:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Oh yeah, agreed. Nothing wrong with AS bringing it here. And you're right about the "laundry list", at the RFC too. I have to be honest, though, and say that running a simultaneous sideshow/commentary on it all on Joe's talkpage, after offering the main opponent that he'll "take up the torch" is maybe not a good look. In the end it gets the kind of sympathy I'm giving here as a reaction to the appearance of "ganging up" - which, honestly, just gives Joe more to be "aggrieved" about. There are better ways. But really, who cares what I think - it'll end in tears regardless. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 18:08, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::You can view it however you wish to, of course. I see Joefromrandb as someone who is vicious and spiteful, mainly because he has been so towards me in the past. In that sense, I guess it's hard for me to envision him being a sympathetic figure. Still, my choice of words at PBP's page probably wasn't the best. ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 18:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::It was not the choice of words that bothered me. The premeditated intent did the bothering. I'm funny like that. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 18:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I suppose. Still, most people who propose an indefinite block have a "premeditated intent". ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 19:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::They do. Sometimes they wear it on their sleeve a little less obviously, though. Whatever works for you is what I recommend. How's this going? <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 19:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' per GiantSnowman - We've had worse & the worst still edit constructively (Most of the time) ...., Joe may not be the "perfect" editor here then again no one is.... ]] 16:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support block''' allowing gross and repeated incivility over time on the grounds that "we've seen worse" is disgusting. Allowing uncivil users to continue simply because (supposedly) worse users also exist is unacceptable, as the environment they create is toxic to new users and indeed to everyone else. Even the youngest children know that 'two wrongs don't make a right', so why do so many Wikipedians still have problems figuring that out? ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 17:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**Tell that to my kids. When one of em does something wrong, they'll say the other did something much worse. ] (]) 18:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
***Yeah, but the question is: does that ''work''? If so, you're an even softer touch than I thought. ] ]] 18:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' I don't think the recent behavior is enough to indef without at least giving him a chance to defend himself here. How he participates in an AN/I discussion can actually be a good indication of whether he has internalized the civility protocol. His edit summaries since the block don't inspire confidence, but I don't see enough ]. He did actually acknowledge a violation on his part that led to the block, which is an improvement. --] ] 18:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::''"He did actually acknowledge a violation on his part that led to the block, which is an improvement."'' {{P}} Heh. Sad but true. I think he may need to take bigger steps, more quickly - but good point, well made - I noticed that too. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 18:26, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose per Snowman'''. Plus I don't like trying to '''indef someone when they are blocked'''. Unblock them so they can reply(and possibly hang themselves). If the seek help is the cause for this discussion, I'm even stronger in opposition to a ban. An administrator called an editor a child(on top of other behavioral issues around here) but Joe is facing a indef ban and as everyone should know, that's far from the worst statement directed to an administrator that didn't result in a ban. Get some thicker skin.] 18:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::As I already told you, this is not just about one incident. ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 18:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::'''Boomerang time?''' What you didn't tell anyone here at this discussion is that you claim Joe has been vicious towards yourself. On that grounds, I think you shouldn't be the one leading the charge for his indef ban but in the very least you should have made that clear to everyone here when you opened this discussion. You failed to do so.] 20:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Now I've heard everything! Oh, so I should be blocked because I had the unmitigated gall to file a complaint against a user who is known to be problematic? You have already succeeded in turning the subject of the discussion from Joefromrandb's behavior to an opportunity to ridicule and criticize me. Now you want me blocked? ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 20:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::ANI complaints end in boomerangs on the complainers here all the time. I'm not the only one who has been critical of you. What I did above was let anyone still reading this what could be a motive for this discussion. You didn't reveal, so I felt I had to.] 20:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::Thank you for injecting yourself into this. I'm sure you've encouraged Joe to treat others with more respect and not create any more problems for himself. You have indeed been very helpful. ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 20:22, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose.''' Perusal of ] and its talkpage also confirms that Joe is a much-harassed user, a favourite target of baiting. I won't name the baiters here, but people who have followed Joe's editing will know what I mean. It's true that he shouldn't let himself be baited so easily, but I don't see an indefinite block as proper at this time. A recommendation to Joe to be more Zen, yes. (No, I'm not suggesting that Joe is uncivil ''only'' after being baited. But the readiness of some of his ... adversaries to pounce is reasonably to be taken as a factor.) ] | ] 18:26, 24 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
::See... How come you always manage to say what I should have said so much more succinctly and so much better? Is it just because you wait, or because you are so much more clever? Don't answer. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#000;">] ]</span> 18:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::{{reply|Begoon}} I don't believe I know you, so I couldn't say who is ''more'' clever, but there's no doubt in my mind that Bishonen is clever. She also writes well, which may be more to the point than cleverness.--] (]) 01:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' This is not because I'm a fan of Joe's but I, too, don't think someone should receive an indefinite block while they are blocked and can not participate in the discussion. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 18:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' though he's running out of chances pretty quickly. --''']]]''' 19:14, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' per Bishonen, --] (]) 20:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
'''Comment'''. ], isn't this ANI thread enough for you? Joefromrand is blocked. I suggest you stop poking him on his page. ] | ] 19:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
:I'm not poking him. He started the discussion. ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 19:40, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Joe is confined to his talkpage. You're not. It's not necessary to respond to everything he says. (And he started talking, not unreasonably, in response to your ANI notification. You should have let it go from the start.) ] | ] 19:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
:::I don't agree that it is necessary but I'll stay away from the argument there. ]'']'' <small>(])</small> 19:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Take a chill pill, William. AutomaticStrikeout isn't the first person to file a complaint against someone who has wronged them. You can block every OP on this page if that were a crime. Quit stirring the drama pot more.--v/r - ]] 23:20, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''': We're screaming "off with their heads" too much around here and reaching for sledgehammers when we need flyswatters. Most bad behavior resolves itself with a block of 24-48 hours, the rest with a week or two. Frankly, most of the people who come here screaming that somebody hurt their widdle fweewings are bullies who rightfully got called on their crap or at least were in the tango just as much as the accused. The remaining few have a good reason to be here. The user is already blocked, so drop the stick. Indeffing is for serious problems, not snark and incivility. ]<sup>]</sup> 21:22, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*Snark and incivility ''are'' serious problems...(not that extending a current block to indef in a pile-on is a good way to address it). <small>]</small> 00:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Support''' This isn't going to pass, but I want it on the record how I feel.--v/r - ]] 21:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:* Given that ''consensus is not voting'' is one of Misplaced Pages's ], perhaps you could briefly state ''why'' you support the action. <small>]</small> 00:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose'''. Per Bishonen, Montana. Once we get rid of all the editors with indefs and long blocks who's left. That's the trend around here. We should be focusing on working with people helping them adjust, learn and adapt, and especially making sure we have all of the facts before we hammer anyone with an indef. (] (]) 21:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)) | |||
**Are you volunteering? I don't think anyone with experience with Joe will volunteer.--v/r - ]] 23:08, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' and I find this current ANI filing to be of extremely poor taste. Yes, the way joe's going, he'll be at the ban point soon. Nothing AS has specifically linked to in terms of ''recent'' behaviour could lead anyone to think that time is now <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 21:35, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Spiritual support''' - This isn't going to happen, but my interactions with Joe suggest that he is entirely combative and unwilling to recognise mistakes. When one misreads "travesty" as "tragedy" then , I think there is a problem. — ] (]) 23:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* On RFCU: I closed it because I was tired of seeing in the centralized discussion box on AN. I found about equal support between the views that Joefromrandb has been disruptive and the openers had sufficiently unclean hands to purse the RFCU. Therefore I thought making an overall concluding statement would be supervoting rather than accurately stating the consensus that said. I also felt that whatever benefit was achieved by having multiple editors express concern about Joefromrandb had already been achieved as much as it would be without me spelling it out explicitly for Joe. <small>]</small> 00:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* On thread and participation: It's ] that a blocked editors comments with be copy pasted by some wiki-gnome if they wish to participate in a discussion board thread about them, so claims about unfairness because Joe can't participate are not substantive. <small>]</small> 00:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* One of the reasons JamesBWatson is one of the better admins is they're mature enough to ignore (per ]) venting comments from editors they've just blocked. <small>]</small> 00:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* I don't think it was particularly counterproductive for AS to request a community review of the situation by opening the thread, but Bish was right about the talk page stuff. <small>]</small> 00:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* Finally '''oppose''' extending block per not punitive. I place far more value on an editor's contributions post-block than statements made during the block, especially when they're being poked. <small>]</small> 00:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose''' If Joe wants to get himself indeffed he's perfectly capable of doing that himself. Some people, including the proposer of this silliness, need to get themselves thicker skins. ] (]) 01:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Oppose''' - Not sure what the accusation even is here, let alone why the "death penalty" remedy is considered remotely appropriate. Let's all just breathe deeply and move along, shall we? ] (]) 05:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Oppose''' - per ]. Let him ride out the current block. If blocks are truly preventative then one block should be able to prevent multiple disruptions. There's no need to introduce additional block while a block is in place, such things being obviously punitive because there can't possibly be any disruption to prevent. Such things should therefore be sequential, not concurrent. If he returns and is disruptive, different story. ]] 07:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive-bottom}} | |||
== 174.44.174.192 == | |||
Could an admin please review ] and do whatever is necessary to ensure that ] either complies with community norms regarding talk page use or is no longer able to misuse talk pages. The discussion is within scope of the ] discretionary sanctions. Nothing good ever comes from talk page behavior like this in a topic area that needs less firestarters and more firefighters. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 17:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:User has been about discretionary sanctions. --] ] 17:31, 24 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== ] making accusations of bullying == | |||
{{archive top|result=Discretionary sanctions warnings handed out all round - no admin action required. ] (]) 02:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
] has accused me of bullying , and I find that unfair and hurtful. Could someone tell her to stop? Would an uninvolved adminstrator step in at ] and provide some oversight? ]] (]) 00:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I don't know the process, but I believe that ] should be topic-banned from all trans* articles. S/he has been edit warring on both ] and ], in the latter case against consensus and against our policy on referring to trans* people only by their chosen names and pronouns. This is insensitive and appears to be quite willful. ] (]) 00:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: Yworo - add some links that prove what you're saying, and show that it's disruptive, and this can quite readily turn into a topic ban discussion/community !vote <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I would support helping find StAnselm something better to do. The Chelsea Manning misgendering fiasco has been going on for several months and anyone with a fair amount of sense would know that going out of your way to keep referring to her by her former name is needless in most cases and makes for hostile environment. StAnselm argues at the start of that thread how the link to the article can't mention Chelsea because at the time the article was still at Bradley. Now that the community has thought better of the situation they are arguing how we simply must mention Bradley in that link. Meanwhile they go to the Chelsea Manning page and tag the entire gender section as undue which is rather laughable given how immensely the article is overstuff with diversions of all manner of Wikileaks information and how sparsely mentions of her transitioning are covered. Really they need to step away for a bit and accept that consensus is just not on their side. ] (]) 00:28, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:List of disruptive edits by StAnselm, not using trans* person's chosen name: , , , , , , | |||
:This is just on ]. There are more reverts and inappropriate tag placement on ]. ] (]) 00:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
===Proposed topic ban for ]=== | |||
In making unfounded accusations of bullying, ] is clearly exhibiting a ], and should be banned from editing pages related to transgender. Relevant diffs: ]] (]) 01:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Anyone who cares to read the talk page and review your repeated reverts just under the limits on 3RR will see that the accusation is actually quite ''well-founded''. Don't forget about the ]. ] (]) 01:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Also, since I am myself a trans woman, and since St Anselm is clearly aware of this, this is simply a further case of trans* bullying by StAnselm. ] (]) 01:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:'''Oppose, obviously (sigh)''' You want to propose a topic ban on an editor when diffs have been provided of your editing being equally problematic? Probably not a ], that. ] (]) 01:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Have you seen the diffs that ] provided? What is it about any of them that is problematic? ]] (]) 01:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::: Um, the fact that they are multiple reversions on a single template with little or no discussion? Indeed, looking at that again, you're lucky you didn't get an EW block for the recent behaviour there. And I'm sure I'm not the only the admin that looks ''really'' poorly on trying to get one's ideological opponents blocked because you don't agree with them. ] (]) 01:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::I honestly don't think it's because I don't agree with her. But I really don't see why people should be allowed to throw around accusations of bullying. ]] (]) 01:59, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I'm not ready to support a topic ban, but the above statement (that making a report at ANI is a form of bullying against Yworo b/c of who she is) is completely bogus and merits a juicy trout across the cheek. Especially given that Yworo cast the first stone, as it was. I'd suggest Yworo take a voluntary 24 hour break from Manning-related material to gain some perspective.--] (]) 01:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The very same could be suggested to you for now edit warring on four pages, all tied to Chelsea Manning, and all tied to the same problem of misgendering this living person and defending your poor edits, demanding that of we have a problem with you being an involve editor hatting discussions calling you on your behavior we must use only your talk page, etc etc. Your edits demonstrate an entrenched attitude that disrespects trans women as far as i can see. Instead of accepting that your choosing to use pronouns seen as offensive and simply trying to do better you instead defend the practice and suggest that Misplaced Pages needs to change. To me that is a battleground stance and makes for a hostile atmosphere specifically intolerant of trans women. ] (]) 01:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree with Sportfan5000's assessment of "Obi-Wan Kenobi"'s activities. ] (]) 01:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Note that sanctions can be imposed here per Arbcom-approved discretionary sanctions on Sexology issues. (whether they're deserved or not I'm not sure yet) ] (]) 01:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Going off the revert warring at ] alone I've given official warnings to 3 of the editors (including Yworo). Sportfan5000 has come up revert warring on at least two pages this week, and already has received 2 warnings, so I've given him a 0RR restriction. --''']]]''' 02:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''': ] has also accused ] of bullying . ]] (]) 02:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
== User:Xyzzyva == | |||
] seems to be what we call ]. A careful look on his history log and we'll notice that the only thing he does in here is add IPA. He has done that on countless articles. | |||
Now the problem: | |||
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*According to Xyzzyva himself he has a "basic" knowledge of Portuguese. See a box to the right ]. | |||
*We have an user who admittedly has little knowledge of Portuguese adding guides on how to pronounce Portuguese names on countless articles. | |||
*He added IPA with '''no''' sources at all. | |||
*He added IPA to several articles: | |||
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*I warned him over and over to stop doing that but he didn't care. | |||
It is unacceptable that an editor be allowed to add pronunciation guides in a language he does '''not''' know. Thus I'd like to request: | |||
*Action against Xyzzyva to prevent further damage to Misplaced Pages. | |||
*Revert all his IPA additions since he lacks knowledge in Portuguese and because they are unsourced. | |||
A quick response is needed. --] (]) 02:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::"I'm going to ask you to stop your crusade to add IPA to every article you see." Can we add this to the definition of an SPA? | |||
::] has touched 8 articles so far this month, so we ''must'' hurry. | |||
::6 other editors not seeing a problem ] | |||
::] has requested ] saying one of the above mentioned 6 editors must be a sock. | |||
::Xyzzyva has posted to ] for advice, and also ] | |||
::Ohhh, ] helped get the article to FA, so ownerousness? | |||
::Wow. Tomahto anyone? ] (]) 03:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::There's now a third (and a fourth) opinion on the article's talkpage. Let's call the whole thing off. ] (]) 07:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
The issue here is not an article, but countless. A person who cannot speak Portuguese shouldn't add pronunciation guides. --] (]) 10:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Posting Bolivarian Conspiracy Theories on Partido da Imprensa Golpista== | |||
*{{userlinks|Al Lemos}} | |||
'''Details''' Al lemos has been monitoring the page ] since its creation. | |||
* He removes any sources that don't interest him. | |||
* He behaves like "owner" of the article, preventing editions from other people who are not consistent with him, and he not try to argue, leaving soon for complete reversions and block attempts. | |||
* Most sources used by him in this article are non-reliable sources, from real blogs or blogs that pretend to be serious sites like Observatório de Imprensa and Carta Maior, organizations that are sponsored by left parties to attack the "capitalists". Other sources are from left-wing extremist writers. The entire article is a big Conspiracy Theory ceaselessly propagated in the head of the Brazilian people to feel hatred from the "richs" and elect "the saviors of the political left". | |||
* This user is collecting fragmented information to create "something from nothing". This article is a masterpiece of illusion, with a ton of original research | |||
* Running from the discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Partido_da_Imprensa_Golpista. Debauched behavior and does not deny my edits, but try to demoralize them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Al_Lemos&diff=578627695&oldid=578622182 | |||
* Debauched behavior and does not deny my edits, but try to demoralize them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Al_Lemos&diff=578627695&oldid=578622182. I contacted him and told him to stop this. In response, he told me "I'm trembling in fear. Oh, you're busted! Rough talk. This guy watches a lot of gangster movies :)" Typical attitude of a vandal with much experience. He thinks he will never be caught, the system will protect him because he is "old in the house" and because he did a lot of editions several years ago, but today is a publisher that "wanders" here, almost without editing, but with the larger goal of be watching this article specifically. | |||
* Al Lemos acts as a single-purpose account, if we look only to political articles. There is a great possibility that he is receiving payment of leftist parties Brazilians interested in maligning the press of the country (there are in Brazil and throughout Latin America, a growing trend to censor all news/press organizations , attempting against democracy, and this is proved by some sources I've included ). | |||
* This article is a pure political propaganda. Al Lemos purposely ignores multiple connections and issues related to the article, and puts only the parts that interest to him, and also, insert original research without verifiable bases. He argued "This article was created in Portuguese in 2009", so what? Some people tried to delete this article in Portuguese because he is a giant COI, with massive speculation and accusations without foundation. This article, into the Portuguese Wiki, was created by a used that have a PT star in his personal page (complete COI, to the PT party is interesting to use the Wiki structure to attack his opponents), and the other two versions (english and spanish) was created by a very suspect user which came in[REDACTED] only to create these articles and never done anything more, disappeared (another COI). The article subject is a party that don't exist and the creator of the term has no credibility as a person, by the sources I've added (Paulo Henrique Amorim has been a staunch critic who openly advocates today, and yet was convicted of racism). This article is most referred to Bolivarian Propaganda than anything. | |||
I am tired of this guy, he is using Misplaced Pages to promote PT Government, Boliviarian sentiment and Anti-press conspiracy theories on page such as the following. I want an Administrator to do something about this guy. He isnt trying to be fair, he is only trying to promote conspiracy theories on this page. Until he realizes that Misplaced Pages is not a forum for this, he shouldn't be on here. ] (]) 02:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Sigh. More one ] lover whining on Misplaced Pages. Or more one of the Brazilian ] lovers, they are legion. People who see reds under the bed. The fellow accuses me of doing ] and that's exactly what he does, to please his bosses at big media. ''I am tired of this guy''... how so? This is, or this is not, the first time that he intervenes in the article? Maybe he has been acting undercover, disguised as a coward IP. This guy needs psychiatric care - his behaviour is not normal. He's sick. - ] (]) 21:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Yeah, that's all this "reliable user" can do - personal attack. The article he created over 3 years is a Frankenstein, and have the style of a North Korean editing the USA page. but he is not very willing to discuss it. I take this as a full admission of guilt. This is the type of person that would block the internet of an entire country (as in China) if he can't control the information...] (]) 22:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== ] - episode 2 == | |||
This new (or returned?) user, already the subject of one ANI thread , has taken it upon herself to edit war over her placing a question about 'how the Third Reich would have coped with a Zombie outbreak' on the humanities reference desk: . I see no reason whatsoever, in the light of the previous ANI discussion, not to assume this is either simple trolling, or a ] issue. Either way, I have to suggest that Misplaced Pages can manage well enough without her, and ask that she be blocked from editing indefinitely. ] (]) 03:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Regrettably more pain is usually required before someone presses the ] button, but asking (and edit warring to insist on asking) how the Third Reich would have handled a massive zombie outbreak is as a good predictor as any regarding whether a ten-day old account has any hope of helping the encyclopedia. Following that episode, we see comments at the ] where an experienced editor is being grilled over an article they have just started in a sandbox. It looks like trolling to me. ] (]) 10:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**It also looks rather ''familiar'' (as Grump suggests), but I don't keep track of socks well enough to say ''which one'' it is. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
***Or maybe the answer is in the section just below. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 13:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
***{{nao}} Rather a case of slight depression ( that affair with chess.com ). She has been accused of single-purpose account, trying to escape that. --] (]) 14:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Given the editor's responses and , I'm willing to ] and believe that Fishface gurl actually wasn't aware that question would be considered silly. | |||
::::That being said, the edit-warring is a problem. I've another warning for that. ] 14:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::What do you make of the subject's seemingly all-too-aware comment in the section below? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 14:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::The section below this one? I don't see anything concerning about their contribution to the below thread, unless you're talking about something else. ] 15:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I'm talking about ''this'': | |||
::::::::"The other blocked account is Anoop (talk · contribs), obviously. Fishface gurl (talk) 06:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)" | |||
:::::::''"Obviously"?'' How does that brand-new user suddenly turn up commenting on obscure user that way. Unless they're not really a brand-new user. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 17:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::The chess angle in particular sounds familiar. I've asked a chess guru about it. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 17:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::It's "obviously" since the guy below signed his name Anoop in his original post. What's your angle, with all the time and effort you are putting into this? What am I your project for the day? ] (]) 20:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::"All the time and effort" I've spent amounts to maybe 10 or 15 minutes. And if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== My account has been blocked == | |||
{{archive top|result=Matter looked into as requested. Account is not blocked but Ckatz had a pretty good case for the template. No further action required. ] (]) 12:06, 26 October 2013 (UTC) }} | |||
Dear Sir/Madam | |||
I have a registered account from 2009 onwards. After a long time when I logged in to my account today... I see that I have been blocked and a message displayed | |||
"It is suspected that the operator of this account has abusively used one or more accounts." | |||
Can you please look into the matter. | |||
Thank you | |||
Anoop <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:Your account isn't blocked - you wouldn't be able to post here if it was. Or are you referring to another account? If so, what is its name? ] (]) 06:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The other blocked account is {{user|Anoop}}, obviously. ] (]) 06:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Then again, that account is not blocked either, so I guess problem solved. ] (]) 06:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::] is a relatively common name, of Indian origin. That account may have nothing to do with the OP's. ] (]) 06:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::This account isn't blocked but there exists a cat of blocked accounts suspected to belong to this user: {{cat|Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Anoop4uall}}. —]''']''' 06:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Thank you for the speedy response. Actually I was referring to what ] just mentioned above. When I login to my account, I see a message "It is suspected that the operator of this account has abusively used one or more accounts." <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 07:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
The strange part is... I have no idea why those 5 account are linked to my account in the first place. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
Because now inactive (since last May) admin CKatz blocked and tagged those accounts; given the SPI wikilink is red, I'm guessing they were so-called duck blocks <small>(standard Ent rant goes here)</small>. I've cleared the tags and left CKatz a talk page message. <small>]</small> 10:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Wouldn't hold your breath waiting on a comment, they haven't been active several months.--''''']''''' ] 10:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::], please restore these tags for (at least) the duration of this discussion. You are making it a lot harder for other people to check this. While the tags shouldn't have included a redlink to the SPI (did Ckatz include this or was this a standard part of the tag?), ''suspected'' sockpuppets don't need a SPI. Considering that they edited wrt the exact same company, that the blocks came around the second edit from this SPA account (which was a mail to CKatz, the blocking admin), and that the blocked accounts include ones like ], it looks to me to be a fairly clear WP:DUCK case, so I don't see why the tags should be removed. Socking and spamming should be fought against, not brushed under the carpet. ] (]) 11:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*The issue appears to be that ] has a notice that "It is suspected that the operator of this account has abusively used one or more accounts." It is easy to see why that suspicion occurred—this account made a single edit (]) in October 2009, then another edit to post "you've got mail" on ] in February 2011. The issue appears to be based on ] and its website, see the February 2011 ]. ] (]) 10:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*FYI - ]. ]] 11:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Your account isn't blocked and never has been. In 2009 you created the (perfectly valid} article ]. Two years later some other accounts - ], ], ] and one similar to yours, ] - began spamming links to AdvocateKhoj into Indian legal articles. The admin Ckatz removed the spam and blocked these accounts as socks. It seems likely you were aware of this at the time, because your first and only interaction with Ckatz was to send them an ''during'' the spam removal but ''before'' they tagged or blocked any of these spam accounts. Your email was also just before they tagged your userpage, and was your only edit in the 4-year period between 2009 and today. | |||
:::Happy to believe you're not a sockmaster, and anyway the whole thing is ancient history. But I somehow doubt the claim that you just discovered all this today. ] (]) 11:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I had created this account so as to maintain the article ]. However when it was blacklisted, I had shot an email to the admin who blacklisted it asking the reason for blacklisting. However, I never received any response. Since there was no purpose, I haven't logged in since... <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 11:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
: So, we have established that you're not currently blocked. You have established that you created ''this'' account to maintain a specific article. It would be helpful to know which other accounts you have or have had - there are a few ''valid'' reasons for ] <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 11:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
How would a user who hasn't edited for nearly a year and a half be aware that a certain site was blacklisted only 1 1/2 hour after the blacklisting happened, and more than 1 hour ''before'' the blacklisting admin edited the article for the first time? Seems hard to explain without some socks being reverted (things like ). I may have failed to think about some believable explanation here, but until such an explanation is given, the sockpuppetry one is thge most logical one, meaning that the suspected sock tags should be restored and this section closed (with or without boomerang). ] (]) 12:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I have no intention of doing any unlawful activity here... all I wanted was to maintain the article, hope u can understand <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 12:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
I got to know about the blacklist as there was a traffic drop from my Google Analytics Account so wanted to know more and so shot an email to the blacklisting admin... <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 12:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:''"I had created this account so as to maintain the article ,AdvocateKhoj. when it was blacklisted, I had shot an email to the admin who blacklisted it asking the reason for blacklisting. However, I never received any response. Since there was no purpose, I haven't logged in since...''" - Anoop4uall, your userpage was tagged as a sockmaster 20 minutes after you emailed Ckatz. Are you seriously suggesting that having monitored Misplaced Pages for two entire years to "maintain the article" without making any edits at all, you suddenly notice an obscure blacklist entry mentioning it, email the admin concerned and then wait less than 20 minutes for an answer before logging out forever? If you had waited longer than that you would have noticed the sock template on your page in 2011 rather than in 2013 as you're now suggesting. ] (]) 12:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{nao}} What might possibly have happened was that the user Anoop4uall might be in a blocked IP range. If the blocked IP range is wide enough, a user within the range can also be blocked from editing even if the user himself/herself is not individually blocked. ]<sup>(] • ])</sup> 13:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:The OP clarified that he was not blocked, but received a message about blocked suspected sock accounts. The explanation of why these are not sock accounts is (to me) not convincing. I have accordingly restored the "suspected sock" tags to the blocked accounts (note that there some IPs active spamming as well which haven't been listed). ] (]) 13:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::The OP has severe over the article in question. He ''may'' not have been socking; however he could well have been engaging in meatpuppetry. ]] 13:49, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::There are things here that are hard to believe. In 2009 Anoop4uall creates an article in a single edit, and then stops editing for 2 years. Fine. But then: | |||
:::*In 2011 a collection of recent accounts spring up and start spamming external links to Anoop4uall's article subject. One of these spammer accounts coincidentally has a username very similar to Anoop4uall (that being Rajeev4uall); | |||
:::*Despite Anoop4uall not having edited for two years, they immediately notice the reversion of the spammed links and send an email to the admin reverting the spam; | |||
:::*Also despite not having made more than 1 edit in Misplaced Pages ''ever'', Anoop4uall knows their way around enough to determine that the spammed links have been added to the blacklist and makes ''this'' (and not the spam reversion that led to it) the topic of their email. Even though the addition to the blacklist would not have affected Google Analytics as it is not retrospective (ie it doesn't remove all previous uses of that external link from Misplaced Pages). So the only believable way Anoop4uall could have known of the blacklisting would be if they or another account was also trying to spam the link at the same time as the socks, and had got the message that it was unable to be added. | |||
:::*Despite claiming to have an abiding interest in maintaining the article and an immediate concern at a sudden drop in web traffic apparently caused by the realtime removal of spam links (not the blacklisting), Anoop4uall then doesn't wait for a reply to their email about blacklisting but logs off immediately and forever, thereby missing the adding of a sock template to their userpage. | |||
:::*Despite knowing how to locate the spam-blacklist pages, watching the effect of their article and linkspam to it on Google Analytics, and monitoring the article itself on Misplaced Pages constantly over a two-year period, Anoop4uall is still enough of a newcomer to mistakenly believe their account is blocked. Presumably because they saw a block message when returning to Misplaced Pages in 2013. But where did they see it? Because the only blocked accounts are the socks who spammed the links in 2011. | |||
:::This thread was opened as a query about why the account Anoop4uall was blocked. As the account is not blocked, I suggest we can close this section as resolved. On the wider topic of why there is a category of suspected socks here, its because there was clearly sock- or meatpuppetry going on, and the above points would make anyone credibly suspicious that Anoop4uall was either well aware or actually involved. | |||
:::Either way, no action seems required. Anoop4uall, you're free to edit Misplaced Pages, and good luck to you with your future contributions. But I agree with Fram that the sock templates should be restored to the blocked accounts. They're sock or meat puppets of someone and the suspicions that led to the tagging are at least passably credible. ] (]) 03:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archivebottom}} | |||
== Disruptive editing by User:Virgosky == | |||
Virgosky has been engaging in disruptive editing against policy and consensus for some time on articles including ], ] and ]. Since 7 August 2013, Virgosky has repeatedly attempted to remove, qualify or discredit sourced content about Catherine's descent from Edward IV without citing a valid policy-based reason or having talk page consensus for their edits. It is not clear what their reasons are as the (invalid) reason they originally cited no longer applies (there are now multiple British reliable sources cited for the content). | |||
Diffs: | |||
* | |||
* | |||
(Please let me know if you need me to post all the relevant diffs inbetween, there are many which can be seen by glancing at the .) | |||
I filed a on 1 October 2013 which did not resolve the situation in the long term as Virgosky has since repeatedly (many times) removed sourced information added to the section that contradicts information that they have subsequently added which is known to be a published error. | |||
I have tried to address the matter on various article talk pages to no avail: | |||
* ] (latest discussion) | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
* ] | |||
I have also tried to address the matter several times on the user's talk page (all my posts have been ignored and removed): | |||
* | |||
* | |||
* | |||
This disruptive editing is extremely harmful to Misplaced Pages. Not only is Virgosky's refusal to work within Misplaced Pages policy frustrating for other editors, but the resulting unbalanced information in the article harms the neutrality and hence reliability of Misplaced Pages content. Please can you help resolve the matter. ]] 12:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I am more than willing to achieve a consensus but it has become personal now with HelenOnline and three other editors whom she had contacted on their Talk pages to assist her. When we began the consensus FactStraight continued the edit war. I believe we are all guilty practipating in an edit war, which I am more than willing to take the hit. But, how can a consensus ever be achieved? | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
My suggestions were called: | |||
* Imaginary tangents. | |||
* I had no solid argument. | |||
* My suggestions were not going to fly. | |||
* No editors were going to take me seriously. | |||
* The originally dispute (where I did what was asked) is no longer relevant. My original edit on October 15th was suggested by a third party during another dispute created by HelenOnline. | |||
My suggestions were as follows: | |||
*That we remove the section from the article which ] agreed was 'Effective, but a bit drastic'. | |||
*I suggested that the section should stay in but leave out the claimed retraction. Until a new version of ] is published to reflect the retraction. | |||
*Finally, I removed the quote from ] (which I originally added on October 15th) because I was told it fell under ]. ] itself is a better source. | |||
Again, I would be more than happy to achieve a consensus, but I do not believe that the rules for a consensus should be used as a stick to beat other editors with nor should that editor be spoken down too and attacked. This has become personal which it should not have been. I would feel much better if an Admin could resolve this issue. ] (]) 14:01, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Virgosky left out one user notification for the latest consensus discussion: | |||
* ]] 14:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
] was kind enough to assist us and suggested we do a consensus. She did not make it personal and asked that we discuss it on the Talk page before making any further edits, however, FactStraight continued the edit war. When ] agreed that removing the section was 'Effective, but a bit drastic', HelenOnline went on the defensive and stated to do that would only satisfy myself (and ]). ] (]) 14:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:When editors disagree (happens), it does not mean they are "making it personal" or that they are being defensive or unreasonable. The trick is to provide reasons for disagreement based on policy which I have done and you have not. ]] 14:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I would also like to point out that currently unregistered users have assisted in continuing the edit war. I have fixed their edits until a resolution can be found. I have no more to say at this time. ] (]) 14:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*{{nao}} If you revert the anons' edits, then technically you are edit warring. Changing material unrelated to the disputed edits is fine and not considered edit warring. ]<sup>(] • ])</sup> 14:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*Your second sentence is incorrect. The rule applies to any reverts.--] (]) 20:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::* Oh, did I say that? sorry for the confusion, I meant non reversion edits (like helpful addition of material). ]<sup>(] • ])</sup> 21:50, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Alright. I believe that is why these unregistered users have recently shown up, they wish to make it look as though I am edit warring because they were not around before the consensus started. Thank you for the suggestion. I will step back and leave the decision to an Admin. ] (]) 15:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Virgosky and Helen: I appreciate that it can be difficult to find a compromise when you both have strong views. I propose protecting this page for the time being so that only admins can edit it. Are you both willing for me to do this and give you a cooling-off period? You might find at the end of it that your differences are not as great as they seem now in the heat of the moment.] (]) 15:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Deb I have no problem with the page being protected, but please note I am quite cool and not editing in the heat of the moment. This has been going on for months and time off alone is not going to fix anything. ]] 15:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
That is perfectly fine with me, Deb. I think it is a good idea. Thank you for your assistance. ] (]) 15:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:In the meantime, could an admin please restore the consensus version that Virgosky reverted four times today, either with no valid reason specified or no reason specified at all? (which is not the final version because I refrained from reverting in the heat of the moment) ]] 15:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Except in limited circumstances, administrators don't pick a version when they lock an article over a content dispute.--] (]) 20:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::That is why I am asking for someone who can edit the article (any admin) to rectify it. Could an administrator please clarify the status of this incident for me? It is not just about a content dispute or a single edit warring incident, it is about a pattern of disruptive editing against consensus. ]'s locking in of Virgosky's preferred version against consensus, the final version because I did not revert in the heat of the moment, has only reassured them that their disruptive editing is acceptable as can be seen from . If that is the end of the story, I will have lost all faith in Misplaced Pages. ]] 05:20, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Please don't to that. I'm afraid that it is reallhy rare for Admins to do that on a protected page - BLP violations being one of the rare occasions, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. I have given Virgosky a ] warning - the warning covers all of his future edits anywhere. This has happened to me before, a page being locked to a bad version, but as Admins we have to be careful not to misuse our tools. If he thinks that he can maintain any article against consensus I'm sure he will be shown to be wrong. I'd advise you also to be careful about 3RR violations. ] (]) 05:44, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Thanks ], unfortunately it appears Virgosky . I would appreciate you letting me know if there is anything I could have done differently to resolve this situation. ]] 11:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Throughout this dispute HelenOnline and other editors have been just as guilty in edit warring, as I have. Giving me a ] warning was a misuse of your tools, especially since during the consensus I showed evidence of other editors attacking remarks, unwillingness to discuss and edit warring themselves. So, they get the hand holding and I get the slap. I will give ] her due, she played it fair and neutral. I was under the assumption that Admins were suppose too do that (guess I was wrong). Some of the information removed on the article is information I originally added myself. Besides, the article has only been locked for a very short time and when it unlocks HelenOnline can add what she views as the correct version and if I make one slip up you get the fun of showing me that I am wrong. I also have lost faith in Misplaced Pages. It is unfortunate that using consensus on this site is really just a stick to beat other editors with regardless if the information is right or wrong. Btw, I am 'she' not a 'he' and I am closely related to the Royal Family so I know what's what. I never realized that an American genealogist would be considered more knowledgable than someone like me who is actually related to them and has done the work. But, as you wish it. I am sorry, HelenOnline that the page was locked with my edits. :) You have a nice day now. ] (]) 12:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I'm sorry, both, I deliberately didn't look at the page at the point when I protected it so that I couldn't be accused of bias. I will have a look at it when I've got a minute to see where we are, although I don't consider myself an expert on this matter. ] (]) 16:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Vigorsky, I didn't use my tools. Any editor can give you a 3RR warning. So far as I counted, you were the only one for whom a 3RR warning would have been appropriate. If I'm wrong, I apologise (note no smiley, which IMHO rather undercuts an apology). And so far as your knowledge goes, that should mean that you have good access to sources that meet our reliability criteria, so hopefully that's what you've been relying upon. I haven't looked at any of the content issues either. 18:06, 26 October 2013 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
I do not believe that HelenOnline will be happy until one of you blocks me. However, just so everyone feels better, I have no intension of continuing this dispute any further even after the page is unlocked. I do have a lot of information to share because they are my relatives but I did not realize that this dispute would be taken this far nor that one editor would get so angry with me. I should not have participated in an edit war but no consensus is fair when four editors (] excluded of course) gang up on one, whether the information is right or wrong. In this case I believe the consensus was an abuse of policy. I used ] as a reliable source and from that source I removed a quote that I realized fell under ]. Once the quote was removed the consensus was not necessary anymore because the retraction was based on a quote that did not follow Misplaced Pages policy, which is what lead us to this point. Most of the information I removed, except for the retraction which started all of this, was stuff I had added originally. But, if what is up there now does not follow Misplaced Pages policy and what was there originally before my last edit does then by all means bring it back. I will except that decision from an Admin. Thank you to all the Admins who assisted. ] (]) 18:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
==Discrimination , ] and racist admins== | |||
{{archive top|status=Without merit|result=Content disputes belong elsewhere. Unsubstantiated accusations of bias, racism, etc. belong ''nowhere''. Edit filter is in progress (thanks, ]!), rangeblock is infeasible, and I don't see any other reason to keep this open, yeah? ] ]] 17:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
I have tried to add up-to-date peer-reviewed scientific researches into the articles. Because I think public should have access those valuable information. But my good faith edits was under persistent attack and harassment because the author of a main source I use is a scientist from a 'minority group'. Misplaced Pages suffers from ] because of the average demographics of the editors. | |||
The attack was conducted by many editors. Most notable three admins users Drmies , SmartSE and SlimVirgin. The presence of highly racist admins worsens the ]. | |||
A entry point of the issue | |||
http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Animal_welfare#Meng.27s_thesis_.3D_hundreds_papers | |||
I know more attack is coming for this. I am writing this for editors who care about justice and equal human rights. ] (]) 13:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* I am minimally involved in this because I made a couple of comments at ] about this. My impression is that multiple experienced editors have been challenging the source and reverting the edits on ] grounds. I have not seen anything to support the allegation that the source is being challenged because it's written by someone in a 'minority group'. That's very serious charge. Please provide diffs to support this allegation. <code>]]</code> 13:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*You don't need edit diffs for this, you need a case diffs. See how other source with similar quality/merit was treated. There are plenty of bad source (not peer reviewed) on the website. The admins are fine with them.] (]) 14:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**I don't think there is really any need to respond to the claims made by 124.149, but anyone reviewing this should look at ] first. ] (]) 13:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::*Thanks for provide the link. It add more support for my claim. Let's see what the admins have been up to. Sick.] (]) 14:13, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* I think OP is asking about the use of Dr. Jenia Meng works in articles such as ], I assume as a reliable source rather than as an external links. -- ] (]) 14:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::*yes you are right.] (]) 15:13, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*We have a spammer here who is pushing an unpublished dissertation, claiming that it's worth more than a hundred, nay a thousand! journal articles (for shits and giggles, see ])--a dissertation so incomparably brilliant that it should be cited in such diverse articles as ], ], ], ], ] (seriously: An international survey conducted between 2007 to 2008 found that monthly expense of university students differ in 12 participate nations"), ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ] ("An international survey of attitudes to world issues was conducted between 2007 to 2008. The initiator and principle investigator of the survey, Dr ], found that people from Serbia and Sweden have major difference on the perceived importance of capital punishment, genetic engineering, human cloning and Human Euthanasia"--no shit! stop the press!), ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and ]. {{U|SmartSE}} can add a few titles from their edit history, in case you're not yet sufficiently blown away by the sheer awesomeness of it all. SmartSE is probably a racist too.<p>There's some discussion about the general point of RSness of dissertations on ], but the point here is that IP124 is simply a spammer who refuses to identify and conveniently changes IP for just about every edit: see my contributions (the 4im warnings) for a shortlist of IPs used to spam the Meng dissertation. And you can see the revolutionary JM index in all its glory (no leading questions or selective points of interest) at . Whether the IP is the author is irrelevant to me, though I have, ahem, my suspicions, but the Mengspam needs to stop; the easiest way is to set up an edit filter, as was suggested yesterday. And this IP needs to be rangeblocked if at all possible, for the personal attacks (on me and {{U|DrChrissy}}), the refusal to be accountable (this convenient IP hopping), the false accusations of racism--and the spamming of non-notable, unpublished, half-baked scholarship written up in the most atrocious English you've seen in a while. Highly racist--my ass. ] (]) 14:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*And yeah, I'm pissed, if you couldn't tell. Pissed at the disruption caused by this editor, and being called a racist. I've spent hours, hundreds of edits, trying to clean up this mess--for someone who so obviously and childishly is trying to avoid scrutiny that it's laughable. We have, what, four different discussions in four different places because of this disruptor, this timesinker. ] (]) 14:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:* '''Support edit filter''' - I don't know why I didn't think of that last night, an edit filter is exactly what's needed. <code>]]</code> 14:54, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* I have no background on this debate and no dog in the fight. The IP has leveled a serious charge against the admins but refuses to provide evidence of discrimination. Content disputes do not belong here. The burden of proof lies with this user to show actual wrongdoing—not the results of a content dispute. It is imperative that 124 ] of the admins involved unless s/he can point to specific evidence to support his/her claims of discrimination. --] ] 14:59, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Just as a comment - a rangeblock is possible but not quite advisable at this time due to the massive scope. Drmies and co. - what would you like the edit filter to prevent? Mention of Meng's work? ] 15:00, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes please. If you look at a diff like you can hopefully work out what would be required. I don't want to be too specific here as it would rather defeat the object. ] (]) 15:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I'll work on an edit filter. I'll let you know when it's done. ] 15:28, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Cheers ] (]) 15:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::*'unpublished dissertation' UNTRUE, lying is very convenient right? The work is a published, peer reviewed (by international leading experts) PhD thesis from University of Queensland. | |||
:::*I use mobile internet so I have dynamic IP, which changes often. There are many more false information in her statements. I don't have time to point them out one by one. | |||
:::* A simple way to get a grasp of the issue is to asses the merit of the source I tried to add. | |||
:::*In order to exclude my source. They even initiated to change[REDACTED] RS policy. But unsuccessful so far, because my source still satisfy all requirements of the amendment. | |||
My source was RS, and it is still RS. ] (]) 15:04, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Look at what I said above. Whether something is an RS is a '''content dispute''', not something that involves judging whether certain admins are showing discrimination. --] ] 15:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:From ]: "The Administrators' Noticeboards are not the place to raise disputes over content." The only mention of ANI is to bring "urgent violations of Misplaced Pages's policies on ]." So far, I have seen no evidence of personal attacks, except by the IP. --] ] 15:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Please provide evidence for the alleged personal attack of IP. Which sentences? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:::That bit where you accused us of being racist, biased and discriminatory maybe? ] (]) 15:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::To wit, "The presence of highly racist admins worsens the WP:BIAS." That directly impugns their motives and is not based on anything except the result of a content dispute. --] ] 15:43, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
These racism claims are the last straw for me. The aspiration of this thesis is fascinating, and the author's supervisor stands behind it so it may one day find its way into this encyclopedia if it wins wider recognition, but it is too early now. I was hoping the IP might come to see this with patient explanation. Thanks for all the time and work you've put into this, Drmies. --] (] · ] · ]) 16:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
==Rights for blocked users== | |||
Hey guys, recently when visiting {{plainlink|url=https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:ListUsers/filemover&offset=&limit=500&group=filemover|name=this page}} I saw more than 5 users are indefinitely blocked. My question is Shouldn't we remove the rights from indefinitely blocked account? --''']''' <sup>]</sup> 15:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:] is probably a better venue for this kind of discussion, no? --] ] 15:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::] states that the user rights of indeffed users should normally be kept unless the reasons leading to a user's block is directly related to the rights assigned, for example gross misuse of the reviewer tool to illustrate a point etc. There was a discussion on this . ]\<sup>]</sup> <sub>]</sub> 01:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Lead of Ten Lost Tribes article under assault by SPA IP's == | |||
Other parties:</br> | |||
]</br> | |||
]</br> | |||
]</br> | |||
] | |||
This article has continually been the subject of IP vandals and editors attempting to push a religious POV over the past year or two. | |||
Dougweller is an admin that is active in editing the series of contentious articles related to this topic and is therefore familiar with the issues. He has recently pointed out to user Bahooka that academic Tudor Parfitt's view is the mainstream view, i.e., not a biased "secular" view. | |||
Because of the somewhat diffuse nature of the subject matter, it is highly useful to quote Parfitt directly in the lead with his most encompassing statements on the topic. He does address the specific circumstances surrounding the mythical lore of each respective region where such "descent" claims are found, and those have been included in the main article to a fairly extensive degree, and more so in the respective individual articles where they exist. | |||
I recently filed a request for protection<blockquote>''Semi-protection: IP editor repeatedly vandalizing page in order to delete material from the lead. First instance two weeks ago, repeated today in more egregious manner. I had to revert about 11 edits to reach the rollback target text in the lead. Some of the edits were one letter edits that rendered the spelling of a word incorrect. The IP is an SPA that has also been blanking relevant material from his Talk page.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 06:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC)''</blockquote> based on the repeated vandalism by one IP, but that was denied on the grounds that there was only on IP involved. Another IP deleted the same material today, albeit not with the same vandal modus operandi as the previous IP. Subsequent to that, user Bahooka has chimed in that he now wants to file and RfC. The IP numbers are relatively close to each other, and user Bahooka had not edited the article prior to the first round of edits by the IP account 24.75.154.232, but I don't think a checkuser request would be accepted, so I haven't filed one, though I did raise the issue with user Bahooka. | |||
Would it be possible to block these IPs? Should I try requesting semi-protection again?--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 15:22, 17:16 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:FYI, as I noted earlier on the talk page, I have edited this article months ago before the IP editors. It is on my watchlist and so when someone edits, it sometimes motivates me to look at the article again. I think a look at my contribution list should allay any concerns about sockpuppetry. I mentioned I was going to set up an RfC for the content dispute (large block quotes in the lead section instead of a summary), so that should not be an issue here on ANI. ] (]) 15:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I have added an RfC . ] (]) 17:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::{{ec}}First of all, the blockquotes are short, and more efficient than summarizing the same meaning, in addition to the fact that they add credibility to the encyclopedia in relation to a controversial topic to religious adherents. But that is a content dispute, and you are welcome to start an RfC, of course.--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 16:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I stand corrected, user Bahooka did make one edit prior to the commencement of the IP barrage, which he did point out on the Talk page . | |||
::His recent editing, including his reversion of a revision I made to a section title today, however, would seem to indicate that he has a religious bias in relation to this topic. He would basically appear to be attempting to lend credence to the false notion that there is a possibility this thoroughly refuted fictional religious tale is true and that the Ten Lost Tribes exist. That is a POV-pushing position with respect to the RS cited in the article, in particular, the material that he and the IPs have been attempting to remove from the lead. In short, he is editing in a manner such as to advocate a fringe religious POV. | |||
::He's started an RfC, and obviously I will respond there, but this would appear to be a useless time sink. I'm inclined to think that even the starting of the RfC can be seen as tendentious in this context, with the limited mitigating factor being the question of using blockquotes in the lead. The relevant policy states<blockquote>''The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.''</blockquote>Parfitt is the cited 10 times in text, and is the leading authority on the subject. There is no question that the lead, including the quotes, is a summary of the material in the article. That fact has been pointed out in various forms, so this is not related to a content dispute, but problems with tendentious editing ] and POV pushing.--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 17:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Starting an RfC is not tendentious, it is the normal next step in ]. ] (]) 20:53, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I've commented at the RfC with a policy based rationale. The changes you are demanding are not based on any policy, and there is a long standing consensus on the lead of that article. The edit summary of the following rervert of your attempt to relegate Parfitt as a skeptic and Talk page entry make certain aspects of that clear, while bringing the lead into closer correlation with the text of the article<blockquote>''(Parfitt is not a skeptic, his is the mainstream view, remove bit about based on religious writings and speculation as we mention archeology, anthropology and population genetics, and remove 'unabashed').''</blockquote><blockquote>''Parfitt is summarizing the mainstream view and should not be relegated to a 'skeptic' section. This isn't just 'one view' any more than the view that Atlantis never existed is just 'one view'. Yes, perhaps this should have more coverage in the body. My edit summary said nothing about quotes so I can't see how you can disagree with me. What do you suggest for the lead? Dougweller (talk) 22:49, 6 October 2013 (UTC)''</blockquote> | |||
::::While consensus can change, the nature of the wording of the RfC makes it seem that there is a policy based rationale for making the changes over and against consensus, which seems to run against the policy that I've quoted in the RfC. I will abide by the results of the RfC, but I see it as a form of forum shopping based on an attempt to alter content over and against the foregoing editor comments and interaction. | |||
::::The very fact that you would want to categorize the leading academic authority as a "skeptic" in relation to a fringe religious theory that in turn serves as the basis for a number of related fringe religious theories (e.g., ]) would seem to indicate that you are intent on advocating the fringe theory, or at least making it seem to be based in historical reality as opposed to fictional tale telling.--]<sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 05:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Whitewashing & PR Puff == | |||
*{{la|Jill Kelley}} | |||
*{{user|Andrewcapp1}} | |||
This article has seen a recent surge of white washing and PR puff. . Most of it has been done by Andrewcapp1 but also by various IPs (all from the Tampa, Florida area). The edits have attempted to reconstruct the events as if Jill Kelley is a victim and that she is fighting 'big government.' They've included removing well (very well) sourced negative material that had a consensus for use (infact, a consensus for the specific wording).--v/r - ]] 15:24, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Per the recent community ban of PR companies, surely Andrewcapp1 should be banned? ]] 15:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I've edited the article, so my hands are ].--v/r - ]] 15:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Err isn't that link ]? ] (]) 15:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I don't believe so, but if I'm wrong then OS can sweep in and remove it.--v/r - ]] 16:09, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::Looks like they have. ] (]) 23:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::I asked one on IRC to weigh in.--v/r - ]] 23:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::::: Why the mass ref delete? Seriously... --] ], 01:12, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*I'd hate to be guilty of outing myself--but can I identify as a steaming pile of dungfluff? But TParis, what are we here for? The IP did their work a month ago--you want Andrewcapp banned? I'm not (yet) going to indef them, but I left a warning. Next time it's a block. Snowman, what did we ban, exactly? ] (]) 01:55, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== A report against two users for their violations == | |||
{{archive top|result=The sock accounts have been blocked, and not unexpectedly showed no relation between Nishidani, Zero0000 and Historylover4. Without that, there is merely a content dispute here, and looking through the diffs I see nothing here to suggest there is any need for admin intervention. ] is an option, though I would warn the OP here that boomerangs at that venue are often painful. Yambaram and Tritomex are cautioned that persistently accusing other editors of sockpuppetry on a high-traffic page with little or no evidence is disruptive and may lead to a sanction. ] is there for a reason. ] (]) 11:08, 26 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
Hello. This is a very long case against English Misplaced Pages users ] and ]. These users have violated dozens of Misplaced Pages policies, some are very serious and others are less. When I first noticed their suspicious activity I decided to report it, and as I dug deeper I found some incredible finding which I'll elaborate on. This report is intended to whom it may concern, to administrators, and to everybody who cares about Misplaced Pages. I have a strong case against Nishidani, but I’ll also prove that Zero0000 is dangerous. I’ve done my research and thus saved others a lot of time, and have put efforts at organizing this piece. | |||
* ]'s talk page says “RETIRED - This user is no longer active on Misplaced Pages”, even though he's actually very active. He has already been ], but he was never issued an infinite ban, which he I'll prove he deserves without a shade of doubt. Nishinani, who has been ], has been ] for years now. It’s very likely that the blocked ] was a sockpuppet of Nishidani. A quick investigation should be conducted to confirm it. Using the Editor Interaction Analyzer tool, I found that their accounts' activity and writings match in multiple places, see for yourself . That, of course, should lead to an immediate ban of Nishidani, because ] is strictly forbidden. I suspect that ] was another sock puppet of him. | |||
* These two users have been ]. Nishdani is a professional at edit warring, as has broken the ] many times. He has taken advantage of the lead section to promote what he wants viewers to see, as he did for instance. In doing so he manipulated the ], which explicitly says that the lead “serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects.“, but Nishidani was determined to write this even though that mention is discussed later and shouldn't be in the lead. He’s ] on ], for example, POV pushing to show that Jews are descendant of the Khazarian people. | |||
* Zero0000 has reverted every change I made on articles that he happens to watch. See how I checled him and added a simple source, without changing anything, but he reverted me again as can be seen . Why? because he didn’t want that source to be used, or as he said it in the edit summary, “we can do much better”. He also did that , where the factual statement I added apparently didn’t serve his interest. Zero0000 removes content he doesn’t like from Misplaced Pages articles occasionally: like the paragraphs he removed without saying a word about it on the talk page, or , where the main reasoning was because the information was “already in[REDACTED] countless times”. He systematically deletes things he doesn’t like, as he did (and was asked to discuss it) . Oh, and if there’s a mention that Jews have any historical connection to Palestine, he doesn’t want it . Here, he deleted a few paragraphs that address criticism of the Talmud teachings, without discussing it on the talk page, as the user who reverted him . | |||
* I accuse these users of ]. The couple, whether alone or together, have managed to monitor and in some cases manipulate dozens of articles relating to the ]. Take for example Nishidani’s extreme POV pushing and . But what happens when someone disputes it and inserts a POV tag? Well, Nishidani . Something doesn't seem right to me. | |||
*The two . In the “1929 Hebron massacre”, the two cited a book written by a person who died 223 years ago, Henry Laurens, to provide “evidence” for some of their writings and . But Nishidani has gone much further to illustrate his beliefs, or what he wants other to believe: He’s in the process of extensively editing the article ], clearly promoting the theory that Jews are basically fake, or Khazar converts. He doesn’t hesitate to write controversial paragraph, but on other hand he deletes what stands in his way like he did . | |||
* Nishidani’s has committed countless ] violations for his use of language. Not only does he use the F word on his talk page but he also uses it on Misplaced Pages talk pages as can be found (“Who gives a flying fuck”), and in (quotes of him from there: “the fucking lead sums it up. Most of the jerks we mention in that section”..., “ fuck all..”, and “Oh for fuck's sake. The literature on the Khazars notes that it is used in antisemitic polemics by the lunatic fringe”). Take a look at his racist comments . He also accused another user of “being bloody-minded and stupid”, and removed his own name from the text that another user wrote , which is another violation. Coincidently or not, on the talk page of “Palestinian political violence”, aggressive and ugly talks are very common and easy to find. Nishidani took part in it when he shouted another call using the the word F*ign, . | |||
*Just look at and what he focuses his editing on. Then, look at his recent contribution (Khazars, Ashkenazi Jews, Genetic studies on Jews, and ], which, if done properly, is absolutely fine) and you’ll find the the user is and has been attempting, quite successfully thanks to the support he has, to pretty much shape reality in the way he’d like it to be: Jews are actually fake, they are Ashkenazi Khazar converts, and therefore they obviously have no claim to Palestine/Israel, and ultimately they’re responsible for the conflict and the blame is on them as he smartly puts it here and there. Regardless of the fact that Nishdani’s behavior, motives, and, after all, personality, truly disgusts me, he has crossed dozens of red lines but got away with the majority of them. | |||
Finally, I would like to share my opinion on the subject. After reviewing so many edits of both users (as well as other ones), the two attempt to establish a picture and present Israel in a terrible manner for a lack of a better term, and to question and in some cases remove content that indicates of facts they don't like, for example that Jews have any legal, historical, or religious claim to the land of Israel. There’re plenty of other examples like the ones I listed that I just haven’t come across yet, but as I’m writing this report, I find more and more shocking edits made my the two, and I'm having a hard time deciding what to point out here and what to ignore. Besides some of two users’ productive work on Misplaced Pages, a lot of damage has been done, and even if one or two of my accusations against them isn’t sufficiently justified or a little exaggerated, it doesn’t change everything else. I’d like to believe that the users I’m talking about work indipendently and , but nevertheless many of their actions violate Wikiedpia’s guidlines. I’m sorry if Nishidani and Zero0000 are (or related to) Palestinians badly affected by The conflict’s bloody history, but Misplaced Pages isn’t the place for revenge, because when millions of daily users come here they want to read neutral and factual articles. These two users’ personal views seem to compromise their editing, and that shouldn’t be happening. In contrast, I feel the need to say, I edit on Misplaced Pages 100% independently. I don’t know what the outcome of this report will be, but what I do know is that I’m going to let as many people as possible know about the biased articles and editings that are taking place on Misplaced Pages by them. Currently, in too many Israeli-Palestinian related articles, a few users with a certain opinion always outnumber their opposing sides in discussions and votings. So the least I can do, besides fighting over it, is inform people of the situation. Regardless of the result of this report, I’ll be paying close attention to Nishidani and Zero0000’s activity, and I kindly ask more people to do the same thing for the sake of Misplaced Pages’s future. The articles the two consistently edit, especially Nishidani, will also be better watched by me and hopefully others. More important than the ] that must be taken against them, is the need to keep all articles written in a ]. | |||
Regards, - ] (]) 17:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::No need to reply to this. It is an excellent statement of the reasons why the reporter should be sanctioned under ARBPIA, per ].] (]) 17:53, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Before I dig exhaustively into this (which I will), I want to warn everyone above that the ArbCom has implemented a series of ] specific to the Arab–Israeli conflict, given its contentious nature. ARBPIA has a strict '''1RR''' rule. Something to keep in mind. --] ] 17:45, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Hilarious. I gave up after reading the words "It’s very likely that the blocked ] was a sockpuppet of Nishidani." An example of ]'s prose: . Nishidani couldn't fake that. ] (]) 18:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::I got a great laugh particularly from: | |||
::::<blockquote>In the “1929 Hebron massacre”, the two cited a book written by a person who died 223 years ago, Henry Laurens, to provide “evidence” for some of their writings </blockquote> | |||
::::where ] is confused with ] and the latter, who died in 1792, is said to be used by me to document facts concerning a massacre that occurred in 1929. ] (]) 18:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::I got as far as "The two corporate very often and edit almost the same pages." ] (]) 03:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I have to agree with Yambaram in this aspects. (As I am indirectly mentioned here) I was reverted based on my counts at least 20 times jointly by Nishidani and Zeero000, usually receiving this kind of rhetoric ] by Nishidani What is however the most astonishing is the findings related to blocked sockpuppet ] using Editor Interaction Analyzer tool I think this is a very serious allegations, especially as Nishidani practically reverted my removals of Historylover4s editions and his sockpuppets like Youngdro2 and similar on both articles I have edited extensively, namely ] and ]--] (]) 18:34, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:First things first: I think it is irrelevant that Nashidani's page says he is retired. It is also ''barely'' relevant that he was blocked for 3RR violations, because those violations happened ''six years'' ago. | |||
:Second, Yambaram: Avoid commenting on editors' motives as much as possible (unless the user admits they are ] to edit constructively). Levying charges such as racism requires good evidence. | |||
:Third, some of the edits above are not problematic at all. The addition doesn't advance an agenda of Ashkenazi origins with the Khazars; it merely helps establish that the Khazar conversion to Judaism has a basis in historical documents. The "deletion" you cited is not a deletion; it moves the paragraph down on the page. His edit summary indicates there was a dispute over its placement. As for why he is using Laurens to cite events in 1929, I don't know. Perhaps Nishidani can explain that. Finally, I fail to see how the comment you cited showing "racism" is what you describe. (Full dislosure: I'm an Ashkenazi Jew.) | |||
:Fourth, Nishidani ''does'' seem to have a problem keeping a ] sometimes. Insulting the intelligence of other users is unacceptable. | |||
:I have not had a chance to look thoroughly enough to determine whether the mentioned users are writing ''to advance a point of view''. But those are my initial thoughts. --] ] 18:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Henry Laurens is cited because he wrote a book about the topic . This is, of course, not the 18th century Henry Laurens, but a contemporary author with the same name. It's just that the name has been wikilinked, so that it leads to the article on the 18th century writer. These misdirected links happen all the time. It's an artefact of the authorlink feature in the template used to add the book to the bibliography. It should go to ]. I've corrected it. ] (]) 18:56, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: So please check it, before claiming violations. As I have ongoing disputes with Nishidani on this issues on at at-least 5 articles and yes as he reverts my editions daily I do follow Nishidani actions. That is how I came here. Concerning Yambaram as we never had any conversations and as I guess that we are editing from different countries (I live in Serbia) this can be checked easily.--] (]) 18:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::On my occasional use of the exasperative 'fuck', as it is known in some quarters, suffice it to look at its positioning on the relevant talk page. It comes at the end of repeated attempts to WP:AGF by replying minutely to other editors who, in my view, talk past one, and repeat their point or points endlessly, as though repetitiveness were a form of logic. That Yambaram is arguing I am some hostile almost antisemitic editor, while citing this stuff, is odd. One example. An editor repeatedly tried to remove the material on the antisemitic edge to some Khazar polemics, which I covered in my rewrite. The editor kept insisting on its removal. | |||
:::<blockquote>There is a policy that forces the article to include an "antisemite" section? On what basis? This is either absurd or cynical.MVictorP (talk) 13:23, 30 August 2013 (UTC)</blockquote> | |||
:::I replied with exasperation. | |||
:::<blockquote>Oh for fuck's sake. The literature on the Khazars notes that it is used in antisemitic polemics by the lunatic fringe,</blockquote> | |||
:::I.e. the page must include a section dealing with the uses of that hypothesis in antisemitic literature, and people who subscribe to this are part of a lunatic fringe. It's deeply ironic that a defence of the right to document antisemites is taken as hostility to Jews and Israel, or even that the Khazar article as I wrote it is interpreted to signify I believe that hypothesis, when the whole page argues strongly against such an inference. I guess Yambaram, like Tritomex, has problems with reading the drift of English prose.] (]) 19:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::"I guess Yambaram, like Tritomex, has problems with reading the drift of English prose" is exactly what I mean when I say "insulting editors' intelligence." --] ] 19:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::That is not insulting their intelligence. I am a philologist, and know how hard it is (a) to master another language (b) how even very intelligent people completely miss the tenor of what a native speaker would regard as a straightforward comment. ] memorably wrote: | |||
:::::<blockquote>One need only converse with Japanese colleagues and students, whose technical proficiency in English humbles one, to realize how profound are the effects of disloation. So much that is being said is correct, so little is right.' ] OUP 1975 p.470</blockquote> | |||
:::::Were I to take the screed above seriously, I'd take Yambaram to AE for consistent factual distortion of the record. If one doesn't have a sense of comedy, to assert what he asserts would be outrageous, and, yes, 'insulting'. Since both he and Tritomex are reading what I wrote, and twist it out of all recognition, it can't be their intelligence that's the problem. It is a total lack of intuitive ''Sprachgefühl'' for what an editor like myself is actually saying. I challenge anyone to find, in the extremely lengthy exchanges I have been forced to have with Tritomex, to make sense of what he is saying in the context of the technical objections made against his POV edits. I don't think it is malice, or stupidity. It's not trusting one's interlocutor's attentive care for the meaning of words, the consistency of logic, and the precision of source referral, and the only explanation is, that in these cases, the person just misses 90% of the 'drift'. As someone who's reasonably intelligent, and yet has spent most of his life speaking foreign languages, and still misunderstands the drift at times, this strikes me as obvious, and the gentlest explanation for the misprisions you will find in Yamabaram's hilariously inexact exposition above.] (]) 20:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Nishhidani reverted the templete challenging the factual accuracy on ] despite the fact that he has ongoing content dispute there with two editors and I presented him with 50 claims that the overwrite of that text, (which was done by him without consensus) was not in line with ] and ] I dispute the factual accuracy of his edition but he continually behave like ] not allowing even neutrality templetes, although archives are full with evidence that the current text is not in line with Misplaced Pages standards. HIS neutrality is disputed and HE (based on his judgment) is removing neutrality and factual accuracy templetes. The same he has done on the article regarding Hajj Amin Al Husseini --] (]) 19:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::All false, dear chap. 'I presented him with 50 claims', for example. Well, you alphabetized them, and the English alphabet has 26 letters. Your claims run from (a) to (z). Why do you keep doing this Tritomex. My job here is not to cater to your wild misuse of evidence, or to endlessly engage with an editor who talks past everything. I write articles, I correct POV articles, like the ones you invent with a fringe POV twist (]). A little attention to the rules, esp. of quality sourcing, and neutrality, would save many of us a lot of time spent in reverting POV pushers, or correcting bad evidence, or hunting sockpuppets (By the way, as to historylover, I'd welcome an investigation of that. I haven't examined the analyser provided, since I know it is wrong. But if a checkuser needs any data from me, they're welcome to it.) Generally, the simplest way of getting an idea of what is going on here, is to review the talk pages of the articles cited, and try to construe what Tritomex and a few others do in arguing their case, and how I respond. If anything, it's remarkable that I haven't blown my cool more often. ] (]) 19:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Nishidani, those 26 remarks are not the only problems with your editions. Look at least to additional 26 problems which I showed from previous talk pages.Here is what you are doing with Neutrality and accuracy templates which challenge you(as per talk page) and here even censoring talk page discussion by inserting editions in my text and here Regarding sock puppets allegations, as far as I see from evidence presented it has to go to official investigation.--] (]) 19:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::Actually, your objections are repetitive, or recursive, and the numbering is fictitious. The objections you raise are always the same one or two items on your fav.list, and your capacity to distort evidence is well-known. In any case, almost no one agrees with you. Your problem is not 'Nishidani', but the fact that neutral third parties almost invariably fail to agree with your proposals and you show not the slightest regard for the niceties of wiki policy. This kind of discussion is a content disagreement, and inappropriate for expansion here. It is not a behavioural problem, unless your ] approach is a behavioural problem.] (]) 20:08, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::And here is another sockpuppet of ] caught, named this time ] editing during his short stay in Misplaced Pages exactly the same pages with same opinion as you did. How you explain this Nishidani? | |||
::::And here is another sockpuppet of ] caught, named this time ] editing during his short stay in Misplaced Pages exactly the same pages with same opinion as you did. How you explain this Nishidani?(]) | |||
And look also this sockpuppet ] How you explain this Nishidani? (]) | |||
:::::] is over there. <b><font color="darkred">]</font></b> <font color="black">(])</font> 20:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::], ] ] are all socks of Nishidani. Fine. All we need to figure out now is whether Zero is my sock, or I am his sock, since both stink the same. In the meantime, this is boring. The intent is evident, dislike of the fact I read ] instead of ]. Given that most of the complaints relate to pages under ARBPIA, this should be shifted to ]. If there is any merit in this ] of fudged evidence it is best dealt with there. And now to bed, and the intelligent converse of books.] (]) 21:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Whether they are true or not, there are a whole lot of charges packed into this statement. If the most serious one is bias, then this is in the province of ] and this conversation should move to AE and off AN/I. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 21:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for the helpful comments, Jprg1966. Tritomex, I see that you and Nishidani have had a long history of battling each other, and you seem to have a case here indeed. The more serious allegations here, as Liz said, is that Nishidani may have had sock puppets. If no one goes ahead and asks for an investigation at ] of all the possible sockpuppets mentioned, then I’ll do so myself. Nishidani, English isn’t my first language though I know it at a nearly native level, and even if I misunderstood you or got confused on something I'm accusing you of, that won't refute the other allegations - you seem to focus on the other stuff because you can't quite address many of the charges I and even Tritomex mentioned. Nishidani, in your first comment here you said "No need to reply to this...the reporter should be sanctioned under ARBPIA", hoping no one else will pay attention to this report, but when people came, you quickly defended yourself. Your style of writing is impressively convincing but that won’t trick everyone all the time. Guys, whether Nishidani is really the owner a sock puppet or not, he'd obviously deny any sort of connection to this, until found guilty (or not), like everyone else would. He has already been blocked twice from the Israeli-Palestinian area at . Take a look there, and if you’re wondering what got him blocked in one of the times, then , but unfortunately he has gotten away with so many of these. I'm not afraid to confidently say that I think Nishidani is one of the greatest Palestinians revisionists and somewhat propagandist out there, in fact he's so good I am almost fooled some of the things he says, until I do a little research and the evidence usually shows otherwise. ] (]) 23:59, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:: That's not what I said. I said that it appeared that the most serious allegations were of bias. I have no knowledge of sock puppets in this case. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 00:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
* '''Response of Zero0000'''. I heard that someone had charged me with abominable misdeeds, and all I find is some diffs that show me working on the improvement of articles. Then there is the shocking revelation that I cooperate with Nishidani sometimes. I cooperate with every editor who strives to get the facts right, and if there is anyone in that part of Misplaced Pages who works harder than Nishidani in checking and counter-checking every source out there with the aim of writing balanced, thorough, and ''correct'', articles, I don't know who that is (other than myself, of course). So in summary: no response is required. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:11, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: I will, of course, address any particular diff that an administrator here asks me to address. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:01, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: I'm reluctant to enter the slanging match above, since this is not a case about Tritomex. Suffice it to summarise my opinion: Tritomex is one of the worst editors I've met in 11 years on Misplaced Pages. He is long overdue for a topic ban, and has no redeeming features. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:35, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::"Tritomex is one of the worst editors I've met in 11 years on Misplaced Pages." It seems to me that all four of you have violated WP:CIVIL at various points with each other. Please ] off. Believe me, I understand how easy it is to get riled up by the Israeli–Palestinian issue. Still, none of you are helping your own causes. I am afraid of what would happen should this thread continue. A BOLD admin is needed here to figure something out. --] ] 05:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::: This page, like similar administrative noticeboards, is a place where editors can state honest opinions of each others' editing. It cannot function otherwise. I don't deny the right of other editors to state robust opinions of my editing here, provided they do so honestly, and I have the same right. I also have the right to compare Nishidani to Tritomex since the dispute between the two is a major content of Yambaram's complaint. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
== Is User:EzEdit a SPA with a disruptive intent? == | |||
{{hat|1=Topic-banned means topic-banned. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 00:56, 26 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
{{archive top|Closed, as the OP is topic-banned from posting about such issues. If another editor wishes to bring it back here, no problem. ] (]) 18:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
I believe that EzEdit is ] that is being used with the sole (or principal) purpose of disrupting the article ]. | |||
===The article=== | |||
The article ] was written to fill a gap in the list of 1000 ] and to complement the other measurement article in that list - ]. When I started writing this article, the gap in the "Vital Article" list was filled by the article ]. | |||
The new article, besides being a complete article in its own right, provides an umbrella for the following articles: | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
*] | |||
*Use of Imperial and US Customary Units in engineering (no existing article). | |||
In the ] (closed 26 July 2013), everybody apart from an IP editor approved the replacement. | |||
Once the article had been accepted, I inserted it at various points in Misplaced Pages including: | |||
*Incorporating it into the hat-note of articles which it referred to as “main” articles for example version of ‘’United States customary units’’. | |||
*Replacing occurrences of “] and ]” with a single Wikilink to the new article as the new article not only covers both countries, but shows how they are interlinked. | |||
*Including it in appropriate templates. | |||
===EzEdit’s harassment=== | |||
EzEdit’s edits have been concentrated on a few articles: | |||
*], ], ], ], ] where he concentrated on replacing the link to ] with two links, one to each of ] and ]. | |||
*], ], ], ] where he insisted on removing the article ] from the hat-notes. | |||
*] where he has striven to keep a reference to the article out of the template. | |||
*A complaint ] that I was improperly pushing the new article. | |||
Once we remove these edits from EzEdit’s list of contributions, we have very little left. | |||
===Conclusion=== | |||
EzEdit’s edits appear to have been directed towards discrediting the article ] as he has done little other editing. While an SPA account is, in itself permitted, this one appears to be used solely for disruptive purposes. | |||
Will an administrator please investigate. ] (]) 17:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:Martinvl, while I am certain someone will investigate your claim, were you not already topic-banned from discussion of measurements? You asked for leniency on the ban to post this report and were told it would not be relaxed. ] (]) 18:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
{{hab}} | |||
== Repeated BLP and COI violations by ] == | |||
In particular, see his comments and the AFD here, where he is making repeated BLP violating statements against the subject of the article ]. I would also make a case for ] in his making of multiple giant wall of text posts with his rants. ] (]) 17:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I am surprised at this comment, I invite everyone to read my texts and see if I have handled objectively and not interested in raking up a million edits and then offering my services to PR firms so wiki can be used as a advertising platform by the likes of such editors, I am spending lots of hours debating and studying the subject and read any one of my comments and you will see I have not violated any WP:BLP or or WP:COI, the comments above without any basis or justification look highly motivated and also not to mention this same editor who found the article should be deleted now finds Hollywood reporter as a source to keep the article but this same editor fails to mention that all the articles in hollywood reporter on this subject are negative and show him as a bad person who has run a ponzi scheme, the above editor has now had a change of heart based on hollywood reporter articles but does not want the content of hollywood reporter article is really surprising and he is questioning my objectivity when he is the biased person here. --] (]) 18:06, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Thanks for providing an example of your behavior and BLP violations inline! Ill toss in ] too with the account RedFeltPen, whos only two edits are to the AFD above, and an SPI on Nlfestival. The AFD comment in an almost identical style to the many posts by nlfestival. ] (]) 18:14, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
I have no idea who RedFeltPen is and why he wrote the comment without any vote, I can state under any scrutiny that I am not RedFeltPen and I do not know anyone that is using that user name. I am sure this should be a very simple check of IP addresses. and other details provided to register. --] (]) 18:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Troll needs a block == | |||
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;"> | |||
:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> {{#switch: {{PAGENAME}} | Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents = | Administrators' noticeboard = | {{#ifeq:|notinvited||Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.}}}} No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top--> | |||
---- | |||
{{resolved|Indefed ].--v/r - ]] 18:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
*{{user|GroundEagle180}} | |||
User has been vandalising ]. ] (]) 18:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:For future reference, feel free to take reports like this to ]. ] 18:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
---- | |||
:''The discussion above is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> {{#switch: {{PAGENAME}} | Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents = | Administrators' noticeboard = | Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.}} No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive bottom --></div> | |||
== Rule of Law == | |||
Though the specific issue is effectively academic at this point (I've given up trying to have a productive conversation with the parties involved), I'm filing this incident in hopes that it prevents bad behavior in the future (i.e. a hand-slap now makes folks think twice in the future). | |||
At the request of ] I started a section called "Need a proper lead" on ]. Anythingyouwant subsequently changed the title of the discussion without my permission and also moved this section to be a subordinate discussion to another that had been started. The argument provided was that the section header I wrote was not sufficiently neutral. I reverted this, of course, since once a Talk discussion is started it is bad form to change existing content except under extreme circumstances (a slight concern about neutrality, of course, does not qualify). Anythingyouwant subsequently started a little edit war, filed a complaint (above on this page), and enlisted ] to support this little war (this, of course, on top of the fact that I haven't been able to get a straight answer to my original concerns about the article from Anythingyouwant). | |||
I have asked the both of them to put back what I wrote and both have ignored my request. Despite the fact that the discussion on the article is dead at this point, I do think at least enforcing WP etiquette rules is worthwhile. I ask that my original edits on the Talk page be restored if for no other reason than to set a good example. Though I agree I could have made a better effort at neutrality that is hardly the point. | |||
Thanks. | |||
-- MC <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:09, 25 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
*Yes, a handslap might be useful. With a boomerang, possibly. ] (]) 19:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{ec}} :If an existing section already was discussing that topic, it is within the bounds to move your post to that section, and to word section headers for neutrality. In any case, a single infraction of ] is not sufficient for bringing to this board, especially for such a minor re factoring. ] (]) 19:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::I changed the talk page header "Need a proper lead" to "Discussion about whether the lead is proper". I also changed the header level (== to ===), since I had already responded to this IP's article edits. I didn't move the IP's comment, or edit it.] (]) 21:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Three quick things. First, this matter was already the subject of an open ANI thread above, titled "IP 192.88.168.1". Second, the editor ] has criticized my actions at my talk page, where I replied that his criticism seems to contradict the consensus here at ANI. Third, my experience has always been that editors have no ownership of their non-neutral talk page headings, in contrast to their comments under those headings, and I think it's generally been agreed in the past that article talk page headings contrary to policy can be changed by anyone.] (]) 15:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Hakeem Noor-ud-Din vandalism == | |||
{{archivetop|status=Blocked|result=IP blocked for 72 hours. ] | ] 23:48, 25 October 2013 (UTC).}} | |||
Someone is vandalizing the page, and I and flyer22 have both reverted twice. I am not reverting the third time(I admit I kind of looked at the contrib and found this) --] ], 20:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*{{la|Hakeem Noor-ud-Din}}<p>That's just garden-variety vandalism by a single IP. If it persists, a report at ] might help (although they usually want extreme vandalism to act), or a better bet might be ] to ask for semi protection for a week. ] (]) 20:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*A very rank garden, John: all edits are abusive vandalism at BLP's (there's one other article). Oh, look, it's a static IP. Blocked for 72 hours. Thank you, Dark Mistress. ] | ] 23:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC). | |||
{{archivebottom}} | |||
== ] routinely deleting RS he disagrees with as "fringe" == | |||
Recently, ] was reported here by ] for his towards people who disagree with him. Darkness Shines used ("for fucks sake"), ("What the hell is your issue?"), and ("If I find you have been dicking about '''you are done'''") against several editors who supported the use of high-quality academic sources like ] and ] in ]. Student7, ], and I can attest to this. How did Darkness Shines justify his behavior? Simple: All of these sources were "fringe". Although I never made a single edit to ], Darkness Shines still against me if I continued to "'''support''' the use of sources" on the talk page. He repeatedly rejected my requests to bring the material to RSN or fringe theories noticeboard. | |||
*Thankfully, Darkness Shines has gone to the appropriate noticeboard for comment on the latest source he was edit warring to purge as "fringe". The area of dispute is ]'s work on the ]. Things at FTN, as ] has done a very good job of exposing his M.O. (aptly summarized as "dogmatic and hyperbolic in your claims without regard to fairness or relevance....looking for any source to support what you want to say.... bullying"). It's clear that this controversy has some emotional significance to Darkness Shines, which may impede his ability to adhere to ]. He's certainly not afraid to continue mass reverts in the relevant articles. Perhaps in part because of some personal animosity towards me, as ("As you have taken it upon yourself to follow me to '''the topic area I edit''' and, '''unsurprisingly''' insert fringe material....") may suggest, Darkness Shines has reverted four of my edits back-to-back. He has asserted that my sources, a widely-cited in ''The British Medical Journal'' and two articles in ''The Guardian'', are all "fringe". He a paragraph's worth of content in ] and removed thousands of bytes worth of content from the article, because one of the sources cited Bose in a favorable light. There is no consensus that Bose is fringe, and Operation Searchlight currently ''still'' cites Bose as a source, so his revert is plainly unjustified. His most shocking revert is at ], were he highly dubious sources such as ] (misquoted) and the ''Guinness Book of World Records'' in place of the "fringe" estimates provided by ''The British Medical Journal'', Uppsala University, and the Peace Research Institute, Oslo. He reverts me at ], and then he on my talk page. Since Darkness Shines has made it clear that he will continue to act as though he ] "the '''area that I edit'''" (in his words), that others should be reverted merely for "following" him, and that "fringe" is just his codeword for whatever sources he disagrees with; I am certain that restoring my well-sourced text will only lead to an edit war (about which he has no qualms). Therefore, I have come here.] (]) 23:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*: Why did you come here with a content dispute? ] would be more appropriate.--] (]) 01:16, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::User Darkness Shines continues to delete the tags of the page ] , without a consesus in the talk page of the article. --Best regards, '''KS''' (]) 06:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== An IP edit-warring over copyright material == | |||
{{user|178.233.175.210}} is edit-warring over copyrighted material. He has already been warned (). On the ] article, the user is copying and pasting content from . Let alone the fact that the website completely unreliable and is nothing but a blog, the user continues to edit war over the subject material (). Something must be done. ] (]) 00:35, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I left him the clearest possible warning about the copyrighted material, and will block him for a long time if he does it again. No comment on the other issues. I assume that there are arbcom sanctions somewhere he can be slapped with if necessary. ] (]) 00:50, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::{{ping|Someguy1221}} Thank you. He hasn't been warned for ARBCOM sanctions yet. Would you want to just add that to the warning you've already given him? ] (]) 01:09, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm not too familiar with Arbcom sanctions, and wouldn't even know how to warn him. I try to avoid arbcom wherever possible. Sorry. ] (]) 01:18, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::{{ping|Someguy1221}} That's fine thank you. I'll keep you updated if he reverts on that page. ] (]) 01:27, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Requesting a permanent block of user AndyTheGrump == | |||
{{archive top|Permanent block not granted. Yes, AtG can be a bit rough sometimes, and sometimes he sounds like a total asshole (note how carefully I comment on ''tone'', not on editor! Bbb23 would be proud of me), but there is no way in which the commentary here is going to lead to an indef block, even setting aside a possible boomerang effect considering the plaintiff's recent past edits. Now, if those in the peanut gallery could stop asking for someone to close it, I could close it without edit-conflicting. Y'all have a wonderful day. ] (]) 02:07, 26 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
If at all possible, I respectfully ask for an unbiased admin who has had no dealings with AndyTheGrump whatsoever in the past, if that’s at all possible, and preferably who does not even know who he is, so that he or she can have a fresh look at this matter and JUSTLY adjudicate this matter without any conflict of interest. | |||
I also seek protection as a “Misplaced Pages whistleblower”, if such protection is affordable, as one incident of subtle retaliation by an apparent "friend of Andy" has already occurred today, as well as a "restraining order" against AndyTheGrump and his future accounts, if such protection is afforded. | |||
I sincerely thank Misplaced Pages in advance. | |||
'''PREAMBLE''' | |||
It is no secret that AndyTheGrump with his superior policy knowledge is the “darling” of many “well-meaning” admins in Misplaced Pages who may or may not know his dark side, and who genuinely try to remain unbiased, but their “soft spot for darling Andy” is unmistakable, and what may as well be called the “Blue wall of silence” couldn’t be any clearer after I saw the way my legitimate complaint was handled yesterday as no admin wants to be the one “incommodating Andy”… | |||
I would genuinely like to think that Misplaced Pages is better than allow, and systematically “enable/give license” to super-editors like AndyTheGrump, who has been blocked more times than most (please refer to his block history), and has shown a '''systematic pattern of "selectively" using Misplaced Pages policy as a pretext to abuse and demoralize editors''' with a grumpy, trollish (instigating not vandalism), nasty, bad faith, uncivilized, antisocial, and passive-aggressive behavior, hinder their “good faith” progress with petty warring edits, badgering and '''nitpicking''', frequently reverting edits seconds after they are made even when ] clearly allows the editor to insert an edit, and baiting them in a patronizing manner, knowing that they do not know policy well, and he has the edge, while knowing that he is the “darling” of many admins. | |||
Such uncivilized, patronizing, indecent and abusive behavior is so extreme and outrageous as to go beyond all possible bounds of decency in a civilized society. It robs many well-meaning editors like me, acting in good faith, who just want to share their knowledge, edit in good faith and return to their normal lives, of any incentive to contribute to Misplaced Pages. Such conduct is also not in Wikepedia's best interest and is completely inconsistent with its CIVILZED culture of harmonious assumption of good faith. | |||
I just want to edit in good faith. I come from a good, highly respected family and I deserve to ALWAYS be treated like an INTELLIGENT HUMAN BEING. I am not a street person to be called names, cursed and be the emotional dumping ground on Misplaced Pages for random super-editors to take their frustrations on me without even knowing me or my station in life. Most importantly, normal human beings have feelings and feelings are fragile. I can assure you that he would be completely different, probably act like a gentleman, had he being talking to me in person. | |||
I must applaud the good admin ] (]), who, albeit clearly having “a soft spot for Andy”, did the right thing by removing the personal attack by AndyTheGrump and “courageously” exposing the true nature of AndyTheGrump, acknowledging the futility of my patient and numerous attempts to reason with him on one particular edit dispute in a civilized debate and good faith: | |||
*''“I wouldn't continue the discussion with Andy on the talk page as it's not going to go anywhere. I've removed Andy's personal attack against you as it was truly nasty.”'' | |||
'''THIS NOTICE''' | |||
A. Carefull scrutinizing AndyTheGrump’s dark record will reveal a mountain of evidence to justify the permanent block. However, for this particular notice, I will bring '''one''' strong and convincing evidentiary incident of flagrant abuse and complete disregard for the dignity of other human beings. He wrote this to me publicly when I pleaded with him to '''"treat me like an intelligent human being"''' after "patiently" trying to reason with him in a civilized manner: | |||
::::::: '''I will treat you as I find you - as a clueless and obnoxious little shit, with all the psychological attributes of a two-year-old. Now go run to mummy and complain about what the big man called you... ] (]) 10:00, 25 October 2013 (UTC)''' | |||
B. I will also disclose that even though I felt so strong about this matter that I brought it up to the attention of the good, well-meaning admin ] who, in all fairness, has shown even-handedness previously, he did not block AndyTheGrump as not to “incommodate Andy”, and referred me to WP:ANI “if I'd like to seek sanctions against AndyTheGrump", and then “hid” my report that exposes AndyTheGrump. | |||
C. For full disclosure, I will also expose AndyTheGrump's self-description that goes to shows where all such grumpiness and abusive behavior came from, and that is completely inconsistent with Misplaced Pages's harmonious and civilized culture and "try to educate" assumption of good faith, as widely displayed by well-meaning admins. | |||
''My Name is Andy, and I am a Grump. Well, you'll probably have figured that out from my username. I've not yet determined whether Grumpiness is an infliction or a Human Right, though I'm inclined to the latter view. As for further autobiographical details, I'll remain relatively anonymous for now, beyond stating that I'm male, old enough to know better (if not always wise enough), and educated sufficiently well to understand how little I can ever know. I'm also prone to writing over-long, unnecessarily convoluted sentences (with unnecessary parenthetical insertions and unnecessary repetition of the same words); often with dubious punctuation, which I'll leave for other editors to clarify, disambiguate, and otherwise improve on, while I concentrate on addressing the core of the topic in hand (if I can remember what it was by the time I've written this much...). I can sometimes write short pithy sentences, however''. | |||
D. I just want to add that, in my opinion, uncivilized, indecent and abusive conduct by super-editors like AndyTheGrump are perhaps the main reason for the widespread Criticism of Wikipeda article and thousands of negative reviews all around the world at a time it is striving to establish credibility and make justifiable fundraising appeals to families like ours. {{unsigned| Worldedixor|00:57, 26 October}} 2013 | |||
] (]) 01:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC) ] (]) 02:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:And yet you can't seem to be bothered signing your posts here or on Andy's page when you notified him.--] (]) 01:08, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you ] for giving one more evidence of what I stated above. But you are 100% in the right. Please forgive me as it was an unintentional error, and thanks to you, I just fixed it. have a blessed day... ] (]) 01:19, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Oh....this is gonna be a popcorn thread I see.......--] (]) 01:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:I will deal with the substance of this later - if anyone shows any signs of taking it seriously after looking at Worldedixor's recent edit history (and not so recent - his/her edits at ] are as good an example of why Misplaced Pages doesn't need Worldedixor's 'expertise' as one could possibly find). Meanwhile, a couple of points for Worldedixor. Firstly there is no protection for 'whistleblowers' here - see ]. And secondly, if you are going to make allegations about "subtle retaliation" by others, you had damned well produce the evidence - I will freely admit that my behaviour wasn't at its best, but I see no reason why you should be permitted to make wild allegations about others without justification. Put up, or shut up. ] (]) 01:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Frankly, Worldedixor, Andy was being perfectly civil with you until your umpteenth freak attack. I look at the fact that you have been arguing on the wrong side of policy up and down ], seem to exhibit ] behavior on that same talk page, and based on seem to view your disputes with Andy as some kind of ]. You seem in general to be extremely quick to accuse people of being mean to you when they have done nothing of the sort, for instance at ]. Frankly, Andy is being more than respectful to you in that exchange.<p>What you really need to do is take a step back and chill. You don't know all the rules yet. Attempts to educate you on the rules are not an attack on your work - they are meant to help your work. Being a collaborative encyclopedia means that there will be disagreements and you won't always get your way. If that's not something you're comfortable with, it's your problem, not Andy's. ] (]) 01:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Regarding 'not knowing the rules yet', Worldedixor has been a contributor since 2006. ] (]) 01:21, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::: Thank you ] for giving yet one more subtle evidence. I think my intial statement gave all the verifiable facts. I only contribute minimally here and there to Misplaced Pages. I do not edit full time. Have a good day. ] (]) 01:25, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::{{ec}} I'm a little more sympathetic to Worldedixor's plight than others. At the same time, I don't think the content dispute belongs here, and I don't think Andy will be sanctioned for his comments. My suggestion is that the content dispute be resolved through the usual ] mechanisms (if Worldedixor clings to naming the son - regardless of who's right I think it's a fairly insignificant thing to get into a snit about), Worldedixor forget about the unpleasant exchange with Andy, and move on, hopefully with a little less drama and verbosity.--] (]) 01:31, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::: Thank you ] (]) for being fair and just. I highly value your opinion but I respectfully disagree. Have a pleasant day, my friend. ] (]) 01:36, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::::The 'content dispute', such as it is, was never really the primary issue as far as I'm concerned - it was more a matter of getting Worldedixor to acknowledge that the article had to be properly sourced and encyclopaedic. It is difficult to work alongside someone who objects to the removal of unsourced trivia about the name of Aida Nikolaychuk's dog, and the name of a friend (with no indication of why this friend was even of any significance). And then there is the matter of Worldedixor contacting (or claiming to contact) the subject of the article. (That particular diatribe was the result of me asking Worldedixor where s/he was getting information from ). I for one don't think Misplaced Pages contributors should be contacting article subjects - particularly contributors who seem entirely oblivious to the basics of how Misplaced Pages works. Right from the start, Worldedixor seemed to want to ignore policy and fill the article with unsourced fluff - apparently expecting hypothetical 'fans of Nikolaychuk' to do all the donkey-work. ] (]) 01:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{out}} {{nao}} Worldedixor, please see , then see ]. AndyTheGrump, please try to work things out here, or else one or more of the administrators here may block you. Best regards, ]<sup>(] • ])</sup> 01:58, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Thank you Epicgenius for giving such a threat and an evidence of all that I stated above. This notice is about much more than one edit dispute. It is about indecent conduct and much more. I refer you to my original statement to read carefully. ] (]) 02:07, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
Cut to the chase: | |||
*'''Oppose''' - and suggest that the editor Worldedixor be blocked for disruptive editing for 48 hours, double the length of the block from the 24th that appears to not to have done the trick of preventing further disruptive behavior. I don't know if DR/N will accept this. Certainly not while this thread is open.--] (]) 01:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**I respect "your support of Andy". However, please respect my wish delineated in my original statement to eliminate conflict of interest. Thank you for your cooperation. ] (]) 01:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::::"Conflict of interest"????? ] (]) 01:54, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment'''. Do we really have to vote on this (sigh)? I recommend closing this topic with no action against anyone.--] (]) 01:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*{{nao}} '''Comment:''' Not something that the admins ''have'' to vote on (the one vote here is opposing the move (I mean the action (nobody seems to care anyway))). ]<sup>(] • ])</sup> 01:43, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:*No, Bb23 we don't have to....if you feel there is no need and wish to close this thread now, I will not object.--] (]) 01:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Yikes, Worldedixor has been editing since 2006, yet they feel that the OP is somehow helpful, and they think ] is reasonable. Andy's initial comment (in full) was: 'See ]. Content issues are decided in reference to policy, and after discussion. And no, Misplaced Pages is not governed by "case law" or precedent.' As normal, let's again thank Andy while asking that he bang his head on the desk rather than publicly flame out. @Worldedixor: Misplaced Pages is a project to develop an enccyclopedia based on certain standard procedures—please listen to editors like Andy when they explain those procedures, and ignore them when they flame out. ] (]) 01:52, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
** Thank you ] for making an effort to "show non-bias to Andy". I listened carefully to your respectful advice and will assume it was made in good faith, but I will refer you to my original statement. Have a blessed day. ] (]) 01:59, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Yes, close this complaint. And maybe, despite his long tenure at WP, it's time for ] to get a mentor. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 02:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*This seems to be one of those cases that requires an admin to either take action or simply close as no action needed. I feel there is enough evidence that Worldedixor has continued disruptive behavior to boomerang for their own disruptive behavior coming off a requested unblock. It might appear to some that the unblock, while seemingly the right move from the fair minded unblock request was, in fact, too soon. Perhaps Liz is correct and a mentorship requirement instead of another block will do.--] (]) 02:09, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
UPDATE: After admin Drmies closed the thread admin Mr. Stradivarius warned Andy that if he makes similar comments again he will be blocked.--] (]) 02:38, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
{{userlinks|Lowercase sigmabot III}} is malfunctioning, see edits to for an example. ''']''' (] • ] • ]) 02:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:<small>Hmph, you should ping the operator, not the bot</small>. I have responded at ]. <span style="font-family:Euclid Fraktur; background:white;">→]]]. <small>(])</small></span> 03:07, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::Can this be handled off-board? --] ] 05:35, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
:::Yes. <span style="font-family:Euclid Fraktur; background:white;">→]]]. <small>(])</small></span> 19:31, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== Question == | |||
If I will be blocked for racism\vandalism\reason will my article be killed or they will stay in Wiki?--] (]) 13:27, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: If the article contains racism or vandalism, it's possible it will be deleted if it can't be salvaged. <font face="Rage Italic" size="4" color="#800080">]</font> <sup><font face="Times New Roman" color="#006400">] ]</font></sup> 13:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Thank you!--] (]) 14:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
: If you are referring to ], the article will be deleted if it does not demonstrate that the subject meets Misplaced Pages's requirements for ], which means having received significant coverage in published ] independent of the subject. There is no point in you repeatedly deleting the maintenance templates without addressing the problems. - ] (]) 15:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*No, the article will not be deleted. You revert my good edits just because she is a Russian writer who wrote tens of books. You must be blocked for vandalism--] (]) 15:09, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
**It is '''not''' vandalism to add maintenance tags to an article—especially adding the {{tl|Unreferenced}} tag to an article lacking independent reliable sources. —''']''' (]) 15:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
***I thought vandalism was ''any edit in which another user disagrees with''. --] 18:00, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*So I am leaving Misplaced Pages. Thats not OK when me make new articles and some miserable nonames demand the notability of great people to be proven to them. Go, delete all articles.--] (]) 15:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
::It would be much simpler to just add some ] ] to the article. The only secondary source currently cited is IMDB, and that's generally viewed as of limited reliability. Has she not been written about in any magazines or news articles? —''']''' (]) 15:19, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
*Then again, based on , maybe it's better if ] walks away from Misplaced Pages voluntarily before getting shown the door by an admin. —''']''' (]) 15:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
== ] == | |||
{{archive top|result=Nothing to do here. ] (]) 16:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC)}} | |||
The user {{user|TheRedPenOfDoom}} again and again removing the ] on '']'' TV show article, and Also the removed cast ] without any reason. See , and . <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:47, 26 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> | |||
* Looks to me as though they were fixing unsourced information and poor spelling and grammar, removing bare URLs, and generally tidying up the article. Also, this is a noticeboard for reporting incidents that require the intervention of administrators, and is not for the discussion of content disputes. Closing. ] (]) 16:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
== ] reverting, blanking on ] == | |||
Those three accounts all appear to be the same person, who is doing mass removal of information with minimal to no notes. I have reverted some of their edits on ] (because they removed information that I added and sourced myself), but user . After quickly going through their other edits, it doesn't appear they are making any constructive edits. I'd love some help dealing with this issue.--] ] 18:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
{{IP User|24.171.220.9}} has been removing content from {{Article links|Calorie restriction}} since October 20. They have only used edit summaries three times, and all of them have been fairly misleading. They have not attempted to discuss the issue on any talk page, despite a final warning about 8 hours ago. The editor has mostly removed content related to the implications of pregnant and young people, especially young people, undergoing calorie restriction. Many of their edits have also broken header formatting, and some have also introduced improper grammar and/or punctuation. Links to edits that they have done: , (might just be downright vandalism), , , , , , , . I decided to bring the issue here because the edits aren't clear-cut vandalism, and they haven't broken ]. — <span style="border:1px solid #00007f;background:#07ffff;padding:1px;"><font face="Times New Roman">]‧]‧]‧</font><font face="Lucida Handwriting">]</font></span> 14:55, 26 October 2013 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 22:11, 22 January 2025
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User:Jaozinhoanaozinho and persistant WP:SYNTH, WP:PROFRINGE, and WP:GNG-failing articles
This section has been stale for a few days and was at the top of ANI (i.e. the oldest un-archived post) and about to be automatically archived without action. I find consensus for an indefinite (not infinite, you may appeal your restriction at WP:AN if you can create some articles through AfC that demonstrate a better understanding of the policies) ban from creating articles in main space against User:Jaozinhoanaozinho. They may only create articles using the AfC process. This editing restriction will be logged at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Misplaced Pages community. MolecularPilot 03:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Jaozinhoanaozinho has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH seems to be lacking substantially.
- Danish expedition to North America was deleted for WP:PROFRINGE
- Da Serra–American conflict on WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH grounds
- They've been warned about creating hoax articles and continued doing so.
- Warned for copyright issues which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in Potato Revolt)
- Plenty of articles containing only one source Siege of Campar, Battle of Cape Coast (1562), Battle of Lucanzo (1590), Portudal–Joal Massacre, Battle of the Gambia River (1570), Battle of Mugenga
Most recently there's Battle of Naband, which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.
Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. I tried bringing this up with them but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to WP:WIKIHOUND someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a WP:PROFRINGE article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. Doug Weller talk 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I checked this Battle of Naband which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? scope_creep 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Late addendum, but it looks like the user in question was tagged by a research team on their talk page as possibly using AI to edit, which would track with the article writing vs content quality if it's the case. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- AI detection methods are so faulty that I’m 100% willing to accept this as truth. Sorry about that. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:
- 1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "Theory of the Portuguese discovery of Australia," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
- 2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
- 3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
- 4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
- 5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
- 6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
- 7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.
- Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts". Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.
- I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between WP:WIKIHOUNDING and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.
I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.
- Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails WP:GNG doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass WP:GNG and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example
A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".
- I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have WP:SYNTH issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass WP:GNG before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that is in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. Black Kite (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the original research policy. I propose and support a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating WP:OR, they gain that necessary understanding/competence. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- SUPPORT ban from article creation. Doug Weller talk 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. scope_creep 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support article creation ban. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. Barbary–Portuguese conflicts. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, I think the issue might have been with the article describing the events as "course of hostilities" which could make it seem like it was a continuous conflict. I've fixed that to make it clear now. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. Barbary–Portuguese conflicts. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
WP:SOCK. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- Comment I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Battle of Lucanzo (1590). There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. scope_creep 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment This is editor is still creating dog poor articles Cult Member. This is the second in days thats been speedied. scope_creep 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. Doug Weller talk 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Me (DragonofBatley)
It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save @KJP1: the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notifying other editors from the wider discussions @PamD:, @Noswall59:, @Rupples:, @Crouch, Swale:, @KeithD:, @SchroCat:, @Tryptofish:, @Cremastra: and @Voice of Clam:. If I missed anyone else sorry DragonofBatley (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity. Schazjmd (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also this discussion: Special:PermanentLink/1269282704#Dragon. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. I'm glad to see that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.
- I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. WP:JAN25 is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, then we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.
- I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to draft articles in userspace and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.
- Happy editing, Cremastra (u — c) 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as User:DragonofBatley/Interesting topics list. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- These are good points.
- However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI-like thing may be in order. WP:Failed verification cleanup project, anyone? Cremastra (u — c) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add DragonofBatley (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC DragonofBatley (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- asilvering (talk) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- DragonofBatley has agreed to a voluntary editing restriction to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- asilvering (talk) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will DragonofBatley (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? voorts (talk/contributions) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for All Saints Church, Wellington. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see any new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - SchroCat (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) KJP1 has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - SchroCat (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you All Saints Church, Wellington. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a great point, you're right, @SchroCat. Schazjmd (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I responded to @Voorts earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with WP:Geoland WP:Notability and WP:Sourcing. Also conflict edit was not directed at @SchroCat, there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's All Saints Church, Wellington was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from Listed buildings in Wellington, Shropshire and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.
- And Dragon's version as submitted to AfC also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. PamD 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
The issues are Verifiability and source integrity; Notability; and the suggestion of Sockpuppetry while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.
Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, Talk:All Saints Church, Wellington, which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises Competency issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.
That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. KJP1 (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. Rupples (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @Rupples or @Voorts. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @Schazjmd and @SchroCat's earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. DragonofBatley (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the WP:V and WP:N concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).
- As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.
- There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.
- Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.
- For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, this needs to be a final warning in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -Noswall59 (talk) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —Noswall59 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at User talk:DragonofBatley.) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked. PamD stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular Crouch, Swale. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (their talk page in July 2023). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point WP:CIR has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)
- Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: 'Woods Bank is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with Dragon's work on it: he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
- Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content here calling it "irrelevant". At User talk:KJP1, PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article St Peter and St Paul Church, Caistor, as he left it, cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, All Saints Church, Wellington, the entire Architecture section was added by other(s). However, their church articles always contain something like
The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.
sourced to achurchnearyou.com, often as a separate "Present day" section. DragonofBatley's version of All Saints' Church, Batley (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose:All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.
(And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing St Augustine of Canterbury, Rugeley and St Augustine's Church, Rugeley, both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.) - Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as here, was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
- Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.
There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note Liz has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that Woods Bank instance (at the end of this edit, which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. Cremastra (u — c) 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to point to WP:Zeroth law of Misplaced Pages: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).
- I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at User_talk:KJP1#Dragon and Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity, and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked.
- I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.
- Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for Chew Stoke, which is also the example of a lead in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.
- Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - removing a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and taking an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.
- The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, All Saints Church, Wellington (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).
- It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.
- Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. PamD 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work
I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've got some experience of CCI investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the 400-odd articles that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. KJP1 (talk) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there DragonofBatley (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
voorts - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. Sound of evil laughter.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- How's this draft proposal: DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace, converting redirects to articles, or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects.
- Having seen Dragon's work on Holme Lacy yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing.
- And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. PamD 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. KJP1 (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: Adding an infobox? Adding a few words about local authority area? Adding a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. PamD 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to Trafford, never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. PamD 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the question PamD. To clarify, I meant any expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing anywhere on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " PamD 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, looks good. @KJP1 what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? Cremastra (u — c) 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cremastra - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hold on. This goes much further than @Voorts wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? Rupples (talk) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at Trafford. I've lost patience. PamD 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:
- No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects
- No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?)
- No editing in mainspace.
- PamD 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:
- In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at Trafford. I've lost patience. PamD 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, looks good. @KJP1 what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? Cremastra (u — c) 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " PamD 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the question PamD. To clarify, I meant any expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing anywhere on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to Trafford, never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. PamD 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: Adding an infobox? Adding a few words about local authority area? Adding a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. PamD 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. KJP1 (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):
- Option A: DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.
- Option B: DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded.
- Option C: DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.
- The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but would personally favour Option B. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into Trafford, a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1: I made some changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- p.s. Trafford this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. KJP1 (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? Rupples (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. KJP1 (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Rupples (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1 and @Rupples: option C amended below. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Rupples (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. KJP1 (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1: I made some changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? PamD 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but would personally favour Option B. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into Trafford, a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s)
Proposal jumped the gun, no consensus. |
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DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):
The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) Uninvolved editors
Involved editors
|
Discussion
- I think I would be happier if:
- there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400).
- I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "
This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs).
" This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB prove to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't see why we need to restrict userspace editing. This would allow them to create pages that would help show that they can create suitable articles. If there are later problems then it can be added but otherwise poor quality drafts in userspace are generally harmless. Is there evidence of problems here? Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because at the moment there are at least a couple of hundred articles that are sub-standard crap and getting him to focus on cleaning those up is important (rather than leave them for everyone else to tidy up while yet more rubbish is churned out in userspace). A temporary hold on article creation in userspace is no great loss to them and will save a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted. - SchroCat (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 19#Category:Civil parishes in Telford and Wrekin. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). PamD 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1 and Cremastra: Another element for the cleanup project: where an article has been created at a disambiguated title, it should be added to the relevant dab page (or a hatnote made from base title). Dragon hasn't been in the habit of doing so.| – Preceding unsigned comment added by PamD (talk • contribs) 19:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd be happier if everyone would wait to get all of these details worked out, before posting and !voting on new proposals. At this rate, we are chasing our tails, with new proposals coming out as soon as someone objects to something, and then there's an objection to the objection. This is frustrating, and not getting us anywhere. And instead of !voting on how stringent the restrictions need to be, let's try to get consensus on how stringent they need to be.
- Some editors are still saying that we can be fairly loose with how Dragon can edit in mainspace. Personally, I feel like all the evidence I've seen points against that, and I hope that those editors will come around to changing their minds. We have a ton of evidence of edits that cause harm in mainspace, in our reader-facing content, and it's more important, I think, to get that under control, than to hope for the best based on Dragon's enthusiasm for editing. Anyone who disagrees with that, please provide evidence to support your view.
- I also see some arguments that it is, supposedly, unfair to have too many AfDs going at one time. I'm not buying that. We cannot restrict other editors from filing more AfDs. If there's a community consensus to delete, then that should be that. Again, what stays in mainspace, or doesn't, matters more than giving some special consideration that would outweigh consensus.
- I think it's getting clear that we also need to restrict him from editing category space, and that the supervised cleanup needs to be deemed "successful". As for userspace, I agree with restricting against new content creation in userspace (essentially: no userspace drafts, as well as no AfC drafts), but I think other uses of userspace, including user talk, and using the space as a sort of scratchpad for the supervised cleanup, should be permitted. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The user demonstated enough maturity and will to take criticism and improve. Yes, him being neurodivergent makes that harder to accomplish, but he just wants to contribute; stop killing his enthusiasm and help him improve instead. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – WP:CIR and WP:NOTTHERAPY also apply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the intermittent explosive disorder. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance). – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for those very constructive thoughts. I appreciate what you are saying. I know KJP1 very well, and I have high confidence in both him and Cremastra to provide exactly the kind of guidance you recommend. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Est. 2021 He's had quite a lot of both time and guidance already. PamD 10:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the intermittent explosive disorder. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance). – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – WP:CIR and WP:NOTTHERAPY also apply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd agree the debate is getting a bit lost in the weeds. Are there not basically two views? I think there is agreement that we don't currently want new articles being created, either directly or through AfC, until clear evidence of improvement, gained through engagement in reviewing the 400+ already created, is presented at appeal. Some think that is sufficient, and editing in mainspace should otherwise be permitted, while others favour limiting editing in mainspace to the 400+, and to any related discussions, with others editors involved in clean-up/at AfD/etc. If that is the main point of difference, my suggestion would be that we err on the side of leniency and allow other editing in mainspace. If that proves problematic, we can always come back here. I think there is great benefit in reaching agreement, and enabling Cremastra, myself and others to begin working with DragonofBatley on reviewing the 400+. That will enable them to demonstrate their commitment, give solid evidence as to their ability to learn and to improve their editing, and clean-up the articles for the benefit of readers. KJP1 (talk) 07:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good summary of how I see things too. If leniency is the path, I think we’ll be back here soon. Recent editing while this thread has been going on shows a lot of new problems being created but no progress on the clean up. I think we’re likely to see as many problems being created as are being sorted, but I’ll bow to the consensus if it goes that way. SchroCat (talk) 07:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1, I have started to engage with your sandbox you tagged me. I can see some already noted and some already seeing afd afm and redirect. I think you'd be better off tagging me more for articles needing a clean up desperately than ones being afd and confirmed as notable. Ill engage with that sandbox as its on my Watchlist and make necessary changes where needed. Not off a whim since your going back to the start of my time on this site. It'll offload my workload and help with afd and afm to discuss deletion or merging. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too Sensory overload for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. KJP1 (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I, too, would like to move this towards a decision. It seems to me that the sticking point is over differing views about whether DoB should be placed under strict restrictions about editing, in order to control a history of negative effects upon our reader-facing content, or whether to allow DoB a greater amount of leeway in editing, based on his sincere desire to be a good contributor and consideration of his self-described status as neurodivergent. I think we need to go one way or the other on this, and once we do that, we can get to consensus. There's little point in editors repeating what we have already said, and going back and forth over that. I think we should look at the evidence we have, and seek a consensus – not unanimous consent, but WP:CONSENSUS. And nobody here is coming from a position of personal dislike of DoB, or wanting to get rid of DoB. We wouldn't be working so hard on crafting this, if that were the case.
- The editors, including me, who favor strict restrictions have provided a significant amount of evidence, based on edit history and continuing edits, to support that view. In my opinion, editors who oppose those restrictions are acting more out of a feeling, rather than based upon the actual characteristics of mainspace edits. At least, that's my opinion. I've been thinking hard about this, and it seems to me that stricter restrictions would provide DoB with structure while working to correct past mistakes and move forward into good editing status. And I believe structure to be A Good Thing. A lack of structure would actually make things more difficult. Structure (just until such time as the restrictions can be lifted) would be helpful. I really hope that we can agree on that. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I encouraged KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm ND and lurking so I'm chime in.
- I was thinking of a short period of being restricted to fixing their articles (perhaps with a specific mentor) before being allowed more freedom to generally edit, then any other restrictions can be lifted over time?
- They've admitted that they have issues with sensory overload already, so having a tight focus on exact tasks with goals to aim for could be really helpful in this case. It will also ensure that the affected articles aren't left by the wayside, as there are so many of them.
- Having a visual list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed will also be a good motivator and incentive - another useful tool for ND editors.
- TLDR: I think we should aim for structure & focus on specific, clear tasks, with incentives for reaching certain goals. The best way to do this would be to restrict to fixing the articles then gradually expand the scope of editing over time. Blue Sonnet (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet
list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed
there's User:KJP1/sandbox10-DoB. Cremastra (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Blue-Sonnet
- It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I encouraged KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. KJP1 (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too Sensory overload for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles
Citation bot keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on User talk:Citation bot#Incorrect reference dates, however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.
Diffs:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legend of 14 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. EF 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. EF 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. EF 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- You can add this to the page in question – {{bots|deny=Citation bot}} – or you can add this to a specific citation – {{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}} – to keep the bot away. See -- Stopping the bot from editing. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that Citation bot did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on Ludlow Massacre, see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a diff. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is not a user script, but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:
- "All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."
- -WP:Bot policy Legend of 14 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the person who is using the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Most of these seem to have been invoked by Abductive, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493
- Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.
- These edits were suggested by the following user:
- Legend of 14 (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
- Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)
- Suggested by user:
- Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates Legend of 14 (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is still about Citation bot. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by User:Spinixster. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
You have given the operators less than one day to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? Legend of 14 (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can see here the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- "All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."
- -WP:Bot policy
- WP:Citing sources is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you quote the part of WP:RS which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. this diff? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about your use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOTACC specifically says
The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account. Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot
. EF 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- 5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.
I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to WP:ASPERSIONS to me... - The Bushranger One ping only 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- 5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.
- As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) moved down from the middle of the above comment (original diff). – 2804:F1...CF:5599 (::/32) (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right?? Isaidnoway (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) moved down from the middle of the above comment (original diff). – 2804:F1...CF:5599 (::/32) (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- 5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unsupervised bot and script use has damaged thousands of articles. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix 2022 deaths in the United States (July–December).... XOR'easter (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're into the second batch of ReferenceExpander edits to check and clean up. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. XOR'easter (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to Whoop whoop pull up two weeks ago (read here) about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed me to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have continued to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at User talk:Whoop whoop pull up § Checking IABot runs. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. Both should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here neither. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOTP is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.
- Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- WP:BOTACC says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
- BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of WP:ROLE. Now, ROLE does have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple managers", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're developed and maintained by a team of people (rather than ones that can be used by multiple people).
- Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to 50,000 pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the only people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they were, in fact, approved implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
- WP:BOTCOMM seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
- WP:BOTREQUIRE says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
- WP:BOTCONFIG provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
- Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- WP:BOTMULTIOP says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved despite the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).
- Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- Whoop whoop pull up 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.
- "Both should take reponsibility"
- -Phil Bridger at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 Legend of 14 (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.
- Policy is very clear, don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. XOR'easter (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Or, as the same page quoted above puts it:
Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked.
XOR'easter (talk) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot has not been
approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking
. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at User:Citation bot § Bot approval. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. Folly Mox (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- ☝🏽It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against Abductive or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion somewhere specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping AManWithNoPlan, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. Folly Mox (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots and checking the results. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, Folly Mox (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots and checking the results. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- ☝🏽It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against Abductive or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion somewhere specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping AManWithNoPlan, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. Folly Mox (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"
Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. CNC (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 Folly Mox (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there anything left here to discuss? Liz 03:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. Legend of 14 (talk) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why is that example wrong? The source code of the webpage says
"datePublished":"2023-02-25T18:46:42+00:00",
. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- Because the webpage made unknown modifications after that date. "<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2023-09-04T22:23:52+00:00" />" view-source:https://worldribus.org/east-antarctica-ranges/. Legend of 14 (talk) 04:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- If a news article had a modified date, for example created on January 1 but maybe a correction was made on Jan 3, then you would want the date shown to be Jan 1 because that is how articles are cited (and later found). How is a bot supposed to know you might want the modified date instead of the creation date? ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1. Not a news article.
- 2. Intention is irrelevant. These edits are disruptive regardless.
- 3. Maybe program it to not add dates to modified works. Legend of 14 (talk) 04:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- If a news article had a modified date, for example created on January 1 but maybe a correction was made on Jan 3, then you would want the date shown to be Jan 1 because that is how articles are cited (and later found). How is a bot supposed to know you might want the modified date instead of the creation date? ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because the webpage made unknown modifications after that date. "<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2023-09-04T22:23:52+00:00" />" view-source:https://worldribus.org/east-antarctica-ranges/. Legend of 14 (talk) 04:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why is that example wrong? The source code of the webpage says
- The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. Legend of 14 (talk) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
User:PEPSI697 bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools
- PEPSI697 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.
My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) a message for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person made a discussion on the talk page about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me this message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I didn't understand what exactly was the issue, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I wish him merry Christmas, he wishes me, everything is fine.
Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is hounding my edits. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor (Augmented Seventh): 1, 2, 3. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.
I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi replaced my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential talk page guideline violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to seek clarification as to why they did this on their talk page. In their response to me, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me this message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see this edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me this message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. This edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.
I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - here they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when he has gotten the same message twice for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of reverting edits without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. jolielover♥talk 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and assume good faith, you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. jolielover♥talk 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. Here, for example, they say:
Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please.
. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. C F A 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. (1, 2, 3, 4 5, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). jolielover♥talk 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing
no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism
is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. Simonm223 (talk) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing
- In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments demanding that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. jolielover♥talk 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. C F A 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
- @Jolielover: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are obvious vandalism.
- Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway,
You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents
- right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you will stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you might stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. jolielover♥talk 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) @PEPSI697: A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page here, here and here. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at WP:YOUNG and WP:REALWORLD because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on your user talk page that you get
stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it
when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been previously been warned about. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if yousometimes don't understand what some words mean
, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) - Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway,
- @CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
- About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future
- I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day.
- 1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content.
- 2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one.
- 3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly?
- Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool.
- 2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection.
- 3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. jolielover♥talk 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I accept your apology. jolielover♥talk 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Response and apology from PEPSI697
The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the WP:PRIMER or looking at the task center? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.
- Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. NewBorders (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is guidance on how to use the
{{Talk header}}
found on its documentation page at Template:Talk header#Should this be added to every talk page? and also at WP:TALKLEAD. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in WP:CONTRIBUTE and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like WP:GUILD, WP:DEORPHAN, WP:HELPWP, WP:URA, WP:RANPP for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at WP:RAILWAY or WP:STATIONS. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)- Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with Bell railway station, Melbourne, but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get Preston railway station, Melbourne article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is guidance on how to use the
- Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Perhaps an administrator could close this discussion and all its related sub-discussions now that the OP and PEPSI697 seem to have amicably resolved their issue. Maybe all that's needed here is a firm warning to PEPSI697 to try to be careful in the future, and perhaps some encouragement to try not to over use these tools if doing so risks placing them in high-stress situations where they might lose their cool, with a reminder that the community might be less understanding the next time around if they end up back at ANI for doing something similar. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good idea there. I agree that me, Jolielover and the others involved resolved this issue. I absolutely agree with this idea to give a firm warning on my talk page. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 08:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you
absolutely agree with
isn't really all that relevant to what the community ultimately decides to do, and continuing to post here only runs the risk of you somehow making your situation worse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok, sorry. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you
Non-neutral paid editor
@EMsmile is heavily editing Solar_radiation_modification in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. Andrewjlockley (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:
- Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
- Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
- - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
- Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.
- An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably WP:NOTHERE. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. Simonm223 (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- done Andrewjlockley (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly WP:GF reasons for them.
- By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as "has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world" and "The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality" + "The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"? Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate WP:NOTNEWS and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a very strong statement cited to...an obscure book, seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
- Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally WP:RECENT, and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. If that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, then it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
- Do you really think phrases like "China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments." are consistent with WP:NPOV? Really? Maybe cutting all of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
- That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently an internal publication of the Central Bank of Hungary. It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.
- In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably WP:NOTHERE" seems downright Kafkaesque. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like Climate change, you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't bad by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply not good enough or relevant enough for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.
- Given this context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not obligated to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @EMsmile's paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @Andrewjlockley provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/
- My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. TERSEYES (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Adding: Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 TERSEYES (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- An editor with a declared COI should never be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the
strongly discouraged
wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --Aquillion (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Aquillion So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this (Redacted)?
- Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that if Earth System Governance is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering is not even seen anywhere on their front page - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as Research Framework. The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)
- that would be wrong. See WP:SELFCITE; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we want editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS Having a perspective on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. WP:PAID editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then WP:COI needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.
- It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's not the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change
strongly discouraged
toprohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism)
. I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though. - Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be manually saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that
editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests
- but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I need to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to this case, rather than a general statement. - Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's not the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change
- If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this
Uh, guys? Does WP:OUTING mean nothing to you? - The Bushranger One ping only 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the principles of privacy still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. TiggerJay (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could we get an edit to WP:OUTTING for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
WP:BOOMERANG back to Andrewjlockley
- I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. However, that does not change the fact she has been one of a literal handful of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in WikiProject: Climate change over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.
- With that in mind, I would like to say I have great difficulty assuming WP:GF here - not when the OP editor (Redacted), which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective and when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.
- I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report, the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of Chapter 16 of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.
- P.S. This is really not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- See WP:BOOMERANG... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.
- All of this is pertinent. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that EMSmile has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that Andrewjlockley is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. WP:OUTING concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.
- The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If InformationToKnowledge is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be they both should be though.
- Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. TiggerJay (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please reread WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS. The suggestion that being a published academic on a subject constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of WP:EXTERNALREL, which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- as per (Redacted) is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.
- Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to WP:SELFCITE. Simonm223 (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.
- If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for WP:COI that arises as a result.
- With regards to SRM has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the version of 15 May 2024). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
- AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for more SRM research in their day job (Redacted). Also, User:Thisredrock explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be against doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
- I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by User:Thisredrock on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
- Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). EMsmile (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery orDARVO, but I'll respond anyway.
- I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.
- Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way Andrewjlockley (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wish to clarify the relationship between the Earth System Governance project (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the campaign for a 'Non-use Agreement' (NUA) on solar radiation modification (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.
- Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was the founder of ESG and its first chair, for ten years, and is the editor in chief of its journall. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is a member of ESG's 11-member leadership board , one of five authors of its current implementation plan , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of ESG's series of short books. By quick count, of the other 14 authors on the NUA's founding paper, one other is on the governing board, at least eight are lead faculty, at least two are senior research fellows, and one is among the journal's six editors.
- In the other direction, of ESG's 11-member governing board, eight have signed the NUA sign-on statement.
- The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. TERSEYES (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TERSEYES, would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? TiggerJay (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.
- For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an oversight on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? jp×g🗯️ 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- ... gonna ask in talk page of WP:OUTTING if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The Bushranger, I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. Liz 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: the diff of them placing it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is here - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - The Bushranger One ping only 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named User:Johnjacobjingleheimer, then it constitutes WP:OUTING (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. jp×g🗯️ 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? jp×g🗯️ 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at WP:OUTTING think it would be easier to avoid.
- opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases.
- alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? jp×g🗯️ 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on their admission of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant WP:HARASSMENT and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't WP:OUTING people or contacting their employers. CaptainEek ⚓ 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding.
- Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts.
- BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point,
- the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous.
- AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I also wanted to question this block. I'm not familiar with all the applicable[REDACTED] rules and conventions, but if I found out that eg the Heritage Foundation had been paying a contractor to edit the climate change page, I would hope that editors would 1) question the contractor and their edits, and 2) separately write to the Heritage Foundation to ask what they were up to. The latter wouldn't qualify as harassment in my book, just a sensible response to a legitimate concern about the integrity of wikipedia.
- Fwiw I also don't think that EMsmile should be blocked because ultimately we don't know whether they were paid by ESG to push the ideological line of the NUA campaign. Given their long history as an editor, and the fact they conduct themselves with courtesy and decency, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Thisredrock (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Does Wikimedian in Residence apply?
EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit[REDACTED] seems analagous to | wikimedian in residence. See also WP:WIRCOI. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no WP:TEND. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. EMsmile (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- My situation is totally different to @EMsmile. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @EMsmile adjusting the page to favour her client (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the SRM article here. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per WP:DUE.
- Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding WP:OUTTING- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.
- Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. EMsmile (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. EMsmile (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile
Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. EMsmile is a paid editor who violated WP:OUTING - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight are highly disruptive - and that's notwithstanding the paid editing. Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. Proposal withdrawn. I think I was a bit hasty. Now supporting topic ban below. Simonm223 (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose block, support WP:TROUTing EMS for almost WP:OUTTING, WP:TROUTing AJL for aggressive interactions, warning ITK for WP:OUTTING.- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.- the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically WP:WIRCOI suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- From WP:WIRCOI
WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages
- this seems not to be the case here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)- like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.
- want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi appliesBluethricecreamman (talk) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by Bluethricecreamman - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. Thisredrock (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. Bluethricecreamman has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether EMsmile was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. Simonm223 (talk) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see User:EMsmile apologize for the WP:OUTING that occurred. Allan Nonymous (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. EMsmile (talk) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strong oppose (uninvolved) there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in simple ignorance (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not WP:PUNISH).
- That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, it fails a DUCK test, and looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor. What I see is a properly disclosed WP:PAID editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors. Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't WP:CPUSH going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :TiggerJay (talk) 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.
- However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for 'potential civil-POV which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like this might come off is overly whitewashing, but
China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.
but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does call into need for a closer look, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group
- mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- From WP:WIRCOI
- Strong support. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, WP:NOTTHEM applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that WP:PAID only strongly discourages paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --Aquillion (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose and IMO unthinkable They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit
: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.
I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)- Personally, I am much more concerned about undeclared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. North8000 (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. Liz 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet WP:SOCK . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I meant meat puppet. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet WP:SOCK . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Tentative oppose - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. — Rhododendrites \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates with no opinion on indef block at this time.
From what I can see, Earth System Governance looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the COI guideline: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide custom that Wikimedians in Residence do not edit about their institution" (emphasis in the original). Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination:
- August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA.
- Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary.
- Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with WP:PAYTALK , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of WP:TPO.
When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil.
EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.
." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page.
" Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client.
It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
I looked at Earth System Governance Project last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics written 73% of the article, in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing.
I added the paragraph below to my comment at around the same time as EMSmile's response below ESG, like many non-profits, probably wants to help Misplaced Pages but needs guidance on our rules. It is very common for non-profits to see Misplaced Pages as a form of social media presence and to want to leverage Misplaced Pages to build their brand. Brand-building is not where the opportunity is on Misplaced Pages. The opportunity is to improve Misplaced Pages articles in the organization's area of expertise using top-quality sources. A best outcome for all this would be for EMSmile to stop the COI edits and then work with ESG to pivot the project in a more productive direction.
Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello User:Clayoquot, we know each other well from working on the same articles as part of WikiProject Climate Change. My client for the project under discussion here is the "Earth System Governance Foundation" (not the project (Earth System Governance Project (which is an alliance), nor the concept earth system governance itself). So when you say that I should "immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder", then who do you mean? Strictly speaking it would be the "Earth System Governance Foundation". They don't have a Misplaced Pages article about themselves, neither do they have a website.
- FWIW: If you look at the history of two articles that you mentioned: earth system governance and Earth System Governance Project, then I think you can see that I actually made them a lot better, not worse (compared with their versions from about early July last year). I added better sources and more nuanced content, including criticism and debates. If there are still unsourced, overly promotional statements in there, then this needs to be addressed (probably best on the talk pages or with direct edits of course).
- FYI: The Earth System Governance Project is “a global research network that aims to advance knowledge at the interface between global environmental change and governance. The network connects and mobilizes scholars from the social sciences and humanities researching at local and global scales.” It is not an advocacy group. It is not my client nor employer. There is also no official/legal/formal connection between the ESG Foundation and the ESG Project.
- If a topic ban was imposed, would such a topic ban for me for Earth System Governance Project apply only to the duration of this particular consultancy or for life? Also a topic ban from earth system governance? Would I still be allowed to propose changes on the talk pages? And would the ban stop when my consultancy stops (likely in a few months), or be there for life?
- Just to clarify for those following this ANI: the bulk of my 60 000 edits were done in a volunteer capacity; and a certain proportion (it would be hard to estimate exactly what proportion) was done for different clients (they are mentioned on my profile page). Those clients are all mission-aligned and are not for profits or even corporations. I have no "agenda" that I am pushing. All I want to do is improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles in the area of climate change and sustainable development. A lot of my work is actually just about readability improvements.
- Also just to clarify: when I mentioned "personal attacks" in that post that you, Clayoquot, linked to, I wasn't referring to attacks in this thread but I meant AJL's aggressive/confrontational comments on my talk page, and also on the talk page of SRM. It felt like a personal attack when someone writes on my talk page "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down. I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client." EMsmile (talk) 17:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't paid editing or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are directly adding quotes from the project's mission statement, which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact they even use the same website, which states that
he Earth System Governance Foundation also serves as legal representative of the Earth System Governance research community.
This is hardly what I would call "no official/legal/formal connection". Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't paid editing or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are directly adding quotes from the project's mission statement, which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact they even use the same website, which states that
- yeah, thats clearly a COI vio. let's report to WP:COI/N, or something else. EMS, it does not matter you made an article better, or are unbiased... COI's destroy the appearance of neutrality. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- did report to WP:COI/N Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does matter (which doesn't mean I agree that they do make the article better -- that's outside my expertise). Just a point of order: we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive. I understand there are some editors who will say things like "editing with a COI is not allowed", but that's flatly incorrect in policy terms. It's not in the spirit of a Wikipedian-in-Residence program, but if EMsmile claims to be a WiR it's not on their user page or in this thread, as far as I can tell (and being a WiR isn't usually an effective shield anyway -- it's more a signal that someone is knowledgeable and following best practices such as, yes, not editing about the institution that hires you). We're talking about a standard paid editor, not a WiR. If the changes were constructive and transparent, there would be no reason for action. Evidence of editing with a COI isn't relevant to a sanction except where it's not transparent or not constructive, and my understanding of this section is that multiple people take issue with the quality of EMsmile's edits (i.e. edits that fail NPOV, not merely an editor that has a COI; the relevance of highlighting a COI is that we rightly provide little-to-no leeway to COI editors to make content mistakes relevant to their COI). FWIW. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:COI/N put this back into our court. Simonm223 (talk) 13:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose indefinate block as seems excessive given her long history of useful edits. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Topic ban for EMsmile
I added this heading just now to break up a section that was getting long Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its
directaffiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project. This is the narrowest scope I can think of that would prevent the kind of disruption we have recently seen from you. I propose this topic ban be indefinite but appealable after 12 months. As you probably know, there's a good chance that you can avoid getting sanctioned if you commit to a voluntary restriction. I do not think at this time that you need to be banned from citing the scholarly works of ESG-affiliated people, however I strongly recommend you be very judicious and selective about the extent to which you do this. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)- Hi Clayoquot, I think your proposed topic ban is a good solution and way forward ("the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project."). I am happy to make a voluntary commitment to this restriction. I have no experience with such topic bans so I don't know the exact procedure. Do I put this on my profile page? Can you point me to an example where someone else has done this (maybe via my talk page)?
- By the way, the paragraph about the non-use agreement that is now (after some discussion) in the section on opposition to SRM research (second last paragraph) is pretty good in my opinion and does not need further changes at this stage (well, except the first sentence is a bit clunky, I already pointed that out on the talk page last week).
- SRM is part of the climate change topic complex and is thus, not surprisingly, a topic full of potential for debate and discussion (some people are strongly pushing for it, others are strongly warning about it), so I think further work is still needed and this article will evolve accordingly over time. Hopefully without any ANIs in the future. :-)
- I'll make sure I am more careful in future with respect to those grey areas while editing the solar radiation modification article as mentioned above by User:North8000. I could even commit that for the next few months, I don't make any edits to the solar radiation modification article directly but always go through the talk page (taking up the offer that North8000 suggested above: "I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged").
- Oh and should the section on my profile page where I explain how I manage any potential COIs that can arise from working for/with clients, need improvement and tightening? Happy to be given advice on this (maybe better on my talk page than here). EMsmile (talk) 22:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the topic ban, you can add it to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Voluntary. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about WP:DUE. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being
a pioneer in opposing SRM research
is sourced... to ETC Group itself). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 23:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) - EMsmile, thank you for being flexible on this. Just to make sure you are aware, a topic ban means you may not make any edits related to the topic in question, and this includes edits to talk pages. There is a small set of exemptions. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh, the talk pages as well? Fine by me for the talk pages of ESGP and its founder but not for the entirety of the SRM article, I am sorry. I think this would not be justified. It's also a bit impractical. With regards to Chaotic Enby's post above I could stress that there are also secondary sources for the non-use agreement, and that I could provide them on the talk page and then leave it up to others if they want to add them to the article or not.
- For background (if this helps, but it should rather be on the talk page of the SRM article, not here): The solar geoengineering non-use agreement is an academic initiative that simply believes SRM is a dangerous technology that should not be further developed, much like nuclear technology in the past and that powerful interests are funding it. That's it. That is why the topic is contentious. EMsmile (talk) 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I described above, I believe your edits regarding NUA at Talk:Solar radiation modification violated WP:PAYTALK quite egregiously. Do you disagree?
- Posting sources on a talk page is one of the milder forms of advocacy but it is still advocacy. Other editors are capable of finding the sources they want on SRM very quickly, and their searches for those sources will probably be less biased than your searches. I do not think the benefit of you sharing sources outweighs the risk of you using the talk page for COI advocacy. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree. I've used the talk page at SRM since middle of last year to reach consensus with other editors in a collaborative manner, like I always do. I tried to make my points in a concise manner, even if I sometimes failed (should make talk past posts shorter in future). Sometimes they might look like a "wall of text" because I copied a paragraph or even a whole section that is under discussion across. Of course there is always room for improvement but to be banned from writing on the talk page of SRM at all is in my opinion excessive.
- Please also note that the person who started this ANI originally said that I am doing "PR" for my client. This is not true. I can expand on this further but I think this is a content question, not one about procedures. Perhaps it's better to now let that his be handled in the COI noticeboard thread here?: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250119181200-Earth_System_Governance_Project. As was pointed out above by Rhododendrites: "we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive."
- I believe my edits for the solar radiation modification article have been transparent and constructive. The article is in fairly good shape now and does not include any "PR" for a certain "brand" or alike. EMsmile (talk) 09:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the topic ban, you can add it to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Voluntary. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about WP:DUE. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being
- The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its
Just to be clear, a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates would not stop you from editing the SRM talk page. It would only stop you from editing the SRM talk page on the topic of ESG and its affiliates. And regarding your history on the SRM talk page, I'm sorry I think you just don't get it. The length of your posts there is a symptom of the attitude that you expressed in other ways. You took the position that you, a paid COI editor, get an equal say in the editorial decision-making process. Instead of offering information and then deferring to the judgement of unconflicted editors, you repeatedly asked for the article to be made more favorable to your client. And unless you are topic banned I see no reason to think you will not do it again. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I'd like to know what other editors think of edits like this at SRM and this at Frank Biermann (an article written almost entirely by EMsmile while being paid by ESG). Do the uninvolved people here see these as PR or not PR? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- IMO if it were not for the PE aspect they look like pretty routine factual edits and I wouldn't use the term PR (by it's common meaning) for them. With the declared PE aspect I'd call it where it would be better to discuss and let them be put in by somebody else if they agree. North8000 (talk) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- (involved, as I've had disagreements with EMSmile before). To me, some of this doesn't quite look routine. For instance, using Biermann's website to say he's graduated with distinction (we rarely mention this), or his own website to state he's often used by the press, and namedropping in a highly-viewed article. It's not egregious, but it would raise eyebrows even without the PE aspect. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Femke, I've modified the Frank Biermann article accordingly now (I agree with you; this needed improvement - my bad). And just to explain: I had mentioned Frank Biermann in the SRM article because he played an important role in developing the non-use agreement in the first place, and not because I wanted to "name drop" him (137 pageviews per day for the SRM article in the last year is not exactly "a highly-viewed article"). But I do understand that this could be "eyebrow raising" in the overall context of this COI discussion.
- I would be happy to improve the Frank Biermann article further if there are still problematic aspects (or "PR"?) that I have overlooked so far. However, I think it's probably better if I give myself a voluntary restriction for this article and also for the Earth System Governance Project article, as well as the non-use agreement component of the solar radiation modification article. I have just now written about this voluntary restriction on my profile page here. I feel bad for the page watchers and admins that this ANI has gone on for such a long time now. Maybe we could draw it to a close now with this conclusion and voluntary topic ban? (if needed this could be fine-tuned through my talk page rather than through this ANI thread?) EMsmile (talk) 23:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- We are making some progress. Your voluntary restriction, as currently worded, is quite far off from a topic ban or even a mainspace topic ban. A topic ban on the ESGF would stop you from, for example, adding a mention of Biermann or the ESGP to articles like Solar radiation management. You have written about your client in multiple articles that are not in your voluntary restriction.
- At the very least - whether or not you have a voluntary restriction - you need to follow the COI guideline. Your comment above suggests that you don't recognize that you should have used a edit request to add Biermann's name to the SRM article. Are you willing to commit to following the entirety of the COI guideline, including the use of edit requests for any non-trivial edits that involve your clients? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 02:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. I find the voluntary restriction too little too late. I don't think it should be narrowly construed or time-constrained, as some COI remains after a paid position. Some of EMS' additions are egregiously non-neutral, such as adding the following to an infobox "focus=Stimulate a vibrant, pluralistic, and relevant research community for earth system governance" . You still claim on your user page that there is no organisational connection between the ESG Foundation and Project, despite their website stating the opposite, as pointed out 3 days ago. Working with a COI requires community trust, which I don't think exist anymore. I do wonder if this topic ban should be extended to future employers too? I can't find it back, but we have had discussions 3/4 years back already about more subtle COI editing on your part, where you promoted papers from individual scientists unduly, in exchange for them volunteering time to improve Misplaced Pages. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per Femke. jp×g🗯️ 11:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support and will withdraw my proposal above. Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose involuntary, as long as the details on the voluntary get confirmed North8000 (talk) 13:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per Femke. also this discussion has gone too long and is nearly 0.5 WP:TOMATs long. We should end it somehow, and some kinda editting restriction is warranted at this point. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per Femke, while a block is far too much, a topic ban (with or without edit requests) seems more reasonable. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support as proposer and I think extending it to future employers/clients makes sense. Once someone has started work on a project, it can be difficult or impossible to change the client's expectations. It is emotionally hard for the community to contemplate sanctions that affect an individual's current employment, so preventing that kind of situation is best for everyone. EMsmile does relatively well when working for clients who do not expect COI editing. I hope the guidance she is getting here will encourage her to seek those types of projects. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Voluntary restrictions
@EMsmile: Just clarifying
- When the Earth System Governance Project and Frank Biermann "zero editing" restrictions expire a year from now, of course if you were under any relevant PE arrangement all of the rules related to that would be in force.
- Did you say that you were under a relevant PE arrangement on the Solar radiation modification article? If not, please ignore the rest of this. If so, while still under it (until you explicitly say it is over), for the areas not covered by your "zero edit" self-restriction, would you agree to operate in a "doubly safe" mode in the other areas of the article? Until then, ask someone else to put in any edits that are not clearly merely-gnome edits?
Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Basile Morin, Arionstar and FPC
Everyone has cooled down and agreed to stop with the mishegas. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I was going to let this go as there has been no recent (within the past two days) hounding, until a comment by Basile Morin (talk · contribs) led me straight here.
Since at least January 3, I have seen a general pattern of Wikihounding on the FPC board involving accusations that ArionStar (talk · contribs) has engaged in sockpuppetry on Wikimedia Commons, something I find only of minimal relevance with FPCs. I have counted at least three times where a user (Charlesjsharp (talk · contribs)) has copy-and-pasted the following message on a nomination ArionStar has started:
- Comment I notify other voters that the nominator has been banned on Commons and has been insulting on this page towards another user. (at Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Popeye, Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Hajji and Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Jimmy Carter 2)
Not only is this failing to focus on content, it's also completely irrelevant to a process involving images. It's sort of like telling people to oppose an FAC because they haven't given good reviews. I would have left this here, until another user (Basile Morin), who has also engaged in Wikihounding, decided to directly attack me and ArionStar instead of constructively responding to my concerns. What really damns me is this comment, in full. I was struck with the flu, so was unable to respond, but I think I'll just bring it directly here, seeing how this isn't the first time this has happened:
There is no "target" as you imagine, and each of us would like to be able to calmly evaluate new quality nominations as we are supposed to see in this section. Rather than being asphyxiated by an avalanche of weak candidates, all precipitated by the uncontrolled frenzy of a hyper-impulsive participant. Furthermore, no user is obliged to come and provoke conflicts via illegitimate puppets, and even less so if you don't want us to be interested in you. You are "kinda new to the whole FPC process", EF5, according to your own words. Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months (User:Sir MemeGod, User:WxTrinity, User:MemeGod27...), and you also use alternative accounts. Some of your recent nominations are orphans and you're probably not the "author" of the photos on which you yourself are the subject. Above, you wrongly mention a "retaliatory opposing" when if that had been Charles' intention, he could have voted "oppose per JayCubby" to bring down this nomination even faster. But Charlesjsharp is usually an excellent reviewer, also a photographer and nominator, regular on WP:FPC and COM:FPC, with more than 530 images promoted on Commons and 303 on Misplaced Pages. I think the idea he expresses is mainly a serious fed-up feeling, to see, once again, a deluge of nominations coming from the same overexcited account. The fact is that ArionStar is here only because he was banned from Commons, unfortunately that is the sad reality. However, the goal is not to repeat here the same mistakes as those made there. Note also that, just after being asked to calm down, ArionStar turns a deaf ear and reiterates, as if he were absolutely seeking his sanction. Obtuse insistence is bound to annoy even the calmest and most patient people. It is obvious that if you want to progress and maintain good relationships with others, you must first be able to become aware of your mistakes, and the reasons for your failures. There is no hunt against ArionStar, but no "special indulgence" either. In my opinion, Charles has mainly tried a kind of moderately subtle "subliminal message" aimed at the participant himself, who would do better to listen once and for all to the good advice, rather than ignoring it and making fun of others. This generous advice has been offered countless times, well before he was banned. Kind regards -- Basile Morin
I mean, what kind of comment is this? Whatever it is, it needs to stop. "Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months" is just cherry-picking things I've done, with no actual regard to relevance. I really don't think a "talk" is going to do much here (which I've already tried), so I'm bringing it here. — EF 17:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Charles and Basile don't commit to cutting it out, I think one way IBANs are definitely in order here. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- (ec) EF5, this is a confusing report to try to sort out although Voorts seems to be able to follow things here. Are you the only commenter here or is some of this content from another editor who didn't leave their signature? If this entire complaint is all from you can you identify, in one sentence, which editor you are complaining about (since several are mentioned here), whether or not you have notified them of this report and what exactly your "charge" is against them? Again, give the heart of your complaint in ONE sentence although you may include diffs. Thank you. Liz 18:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I am the only filer. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: As I understand the report, and from looking at the diffs, Charles and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that Arion is socking/engaging in harassment/vandalism at Commons. Basile and Charles have both been around for a long time and should know better. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you, voorts, for the summation. I am completely ignorant of what is going on at the Commons. It's enough for me to keep up with what's happening on this Wikimedia project of which I only barely succeed at, much less know who is socking or who is blocked on other projects. Liz 19:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- "and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that" => No, we did not vote here. -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The intent was clearly to cast aspersions on the entire nomination, even if you didn't use a bolded oppose. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Arionstar was indeed indeffed on Commons and has socked there, creating some bad blood among some FPC regulars. For better or worse, however, we regard the projects as independent. In fact, demonstrating constructive behavior on a different project is often a good strategy to appeal a block. As Arionstar continued socking at Commons, I don't think that's the goal, but the point stands that anyone who wishes to see Arionstar sanctioned here would need to open a thread on this board with diffs showing bad behavior here (or, at minimum, bad behavior elsewhere that's directly connected to conflicts here, such as harassing a user on Commons because of a dispute here). Absent consensus otherwise, Arionstar is AFAIK in good standing on enwp.
- Doesn't mean anyone's obliged to support his nominations, of course, and I don't blame the Commons regulars from not doing so. The only problem would be an opposition here solely due to behavior there, which (as much as I'm critical of enwp's FPC criteria) is probably not a valid reason for opposition. That said, I don't see that anyone has done that? At Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Popeye, Charles posted a comment and did not vote. Basile opposed, but provided clear reasons why, which didn't center on behavioral issues. Just not sure what there is to do here. Maybe this bit of advice will suffice: (a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is WP:ADVOCACY against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm learning from my mistakes and unilaterally made peace with Basile. The FP guidelines here are different but I'm understanding them day after day. ArionStar (talk) 18:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is WP:ADVOCACY against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
ArionStar's disruptions
(First, to take into account at the origin of this report by EF5, an annoyance perhaps caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination: Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Pilger twin tornadoes.)
Now, concerning ArionStar:
- ArionStar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
See:
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Buddha of Ibiraçu
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Kaaba 2 (now delisted and replaced)
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Tokyo Skytree (clear attack against me)
My talk page also was "attacked" with some rather inappropriate puns on my first name (2, 3, 4, 5, 6).
WP:HARASS. These edits were reverted by User:RodRabelo7, with a warning in Portuguese language left to the user (translation here), before being restored by ArionStar as if my talk page was a battleground.
More worrying, A few days ago the same person used sockpuppets to pollute my account on Commons:
Exhausting. There have been a lot of lies by this same person, on Commons. Best regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regarding me being “mad about my failed nom”, that is casting serious WP:ASPERSIONS. I engaged because I saw what looked like uncivil behavior, not because one of my nominations failed. EF 19:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your subjective opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Basile Morin: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my rational vote. Regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's casting aspersions which is not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion. Last time I felt "forced" to cross out my comment, it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:WIKILAWYERING about "last time" doesn't help your case when you are casting aspersions. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your links. I will try to read these two "essays" in peace and quiet, as well as this "information page". I already wrote a friendly message below. All the best -- Basile Morin (talk) 05:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:WIKILAWYERING about "last time" doesn't help your case when you are casting aspersions. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion. Last time I felt "forced" to cross out my comment, it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's casting aspersions which is not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my rational vote. Regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Basile Morin: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your subjective opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at WP:SPI. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. Liz 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Attacks, attacks, he attacked"… I'll keep my silence because I try… (It's sad to see when someone "loses the line" after a "ceasefire request")
- P.S.: " annoyance perhaps caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination"… kkkkkkk (laughs in Brazilian Portuguese). ArionStar (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- ArionStar, I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. Liz 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agree Thanks. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- ArionStar, I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. Liz 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at WP:SPI. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. Liz 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
On reflection Thank you. I would like to apologize to user EF5 if I may have made one or more errors of judgment regarding them. I do not know this user very well, and having noticed that they often change their name, use multiple accounts, and edit other users' personal pages, I may have indeed become too defensive. Since they are apparently very young in their photos, I may have made some wrong assumptions of behavior. It may also be the fatigue generated by the long repetitive puppet hunts on the other friend project. So all the better if this person (EF5) is reliable and well-intentioned. I don't blame them for anything, and I'm rather looking forward to getting back to my usual activities.
I agree with Rhododendrites' suggestion and thank him for his effort to calm things down: "(a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp." I understand that my approach was not the most tactful, sorry. I can nevertheless prove that the approach was 100% healthy and intended to help Misplaced Pages.
I have absolutely no problem with ArionStar contributing constructively to the development of the encyclopedia (if that is really his intention). However, I would also like to draw attention to the fact that this wise warning from another user is in my humble opinion far from being "vandalism" as the other imagines. This is perhaps a most important point. The last thing I claim is the need for ArionStar to immediately and permanently stop using unproductive puppets. Neither elsewhere nor here. See WP:BADSOCK "Good hand" and "bad hand" accounts.
I noticed that after self-imposing a "wikibreak" they reverted another user to my own talk page, thus adding to the annoying noise. I would therefore be grateful if ArionStar would never again try to get in touch through this channel. I need peace and concentration.
Finally, I am happy, personally, to make an effort of discretion. I have accepted the criticisms that have been addressed to me, and sincerely consider them constructive. Thank you to each and every one of you. I wish you all fruitful research and rich contributions on Misplaced Pages. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In addition, I'll ignore any report about me coming from you here on Misplaced Pages. ArionStar (talk) 04:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza
- Aubrey Plaza (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Religião, Política e Futebol (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- ZanderAlbatraz1145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Religião, Política e Futebol and ZanderAlbatraz1145 have both been edit warring at Aubrey Plaza over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration.
Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. Kingsif (talk) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - The Bushranger One ping only 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. Kingsif (talk) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. Nil Einne (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. Liz 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at Talk:Aubrey Plaza, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Sundayclose: Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says,
This complaint is not about the content directly
. We are not discussing the content you're disputing, but it would be great if you did try to gain some consensus at the article talkpage. Kingsif (talk) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Sundayclose: Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says,
- Though I honestly thought I'd waited too long to take further steps to protect a highly-viewed article, fair enough. PP has helped over the weekend: while IMO the history is easy enough to follow in terms of seeing what would have been needed for immediate preventative/protective measures, yes it is a bit more complicated. Full post to follow. Kingsif (talk) 12:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at Talk:Aubrey Plaza, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- There have been numerous edits to the Aubrey Plaza article since 4 January, when it was announced her husband had died, later declared a suicide. Most of the edits revolve around adding this information and how to describe her husband in the rest of the article. Most seem to be well-intentioned, don't all meet best practice for BLP editing, but generally can be resolved with corrective edits.
- Separately, since 29 December, some users have been attempting to add a lot of information about the BLP subject's ethnic background and non-notable extended family.
- The first edit to add this information was on 29 December by IP 94.63.205.236. This was bot-reverted for the bad source. The same IP reinstated the edit moments later. Diffs:
- @Sundayclose: Then reverted the edit later that day, again with sourcing concerns. Diff: Sundayclose also warned the IP about BLP, and the IP went dormant.
- During all the editing on 4 January, another IP, 74.12.250.57, changed some of this info (describing Ashkenazi Jewish as Native American) for probably malicious reasons: - while another, 2600:1000:b107:a865:e028:5f95:de45:c803, removed some of the ethnic background info with a strange edit reason ("Updated"):
- The article was then confirmed-protected for two days.
- On 10 January, @Religião, Política e Futebol: made two edits (that for content purposes we will consider as one) to reinstate, and further expand upon, the information on family and ethnic background. Edits:
- Another IP, 2a00:23c6:ed85:7d01:3d25:a335:96f5:4b40, undid the edits on 10 January, again with sourcing and BLP concerns. Diff:
- On 14 January, Religião reinstates their version without explanation. Diff:
- On 15 January, I (Kingsif), undid this with the same source/BLP concerns. I also mention more specifically what could be BLP issues, and recommend using the talkpage to discuss the edit. Diff:
- Also on 15 January, Religião adds the information back. In their edit reason, they seem to acknowledge the BLP specifics I mentioned but then claim that their content is not an issue. They also say that they don't need to discuss. Diff:
- On 16 January, I (Kingsif), again remove the information. I address the content and sourcing concerns more forcefully, and the need for discussion. I warn Religião that their behaviour in the circumstances constitutes edit warring. Diff:
- Also on 16 January, Religião once again added back the content. Their edit reason asked why they can't add personal information on non-notable people: a lack of knowledge of BIO policy, but unwillingness to do anything about that instead of edit-war. Diff:
- I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
- In regards to the mention of Baena's suicide, this was first added shortly after it was first reported on 4 January.
- @DiaMali: did much of the immediate updating, including adding and removing this before it was confirmed. Diff:
- Over the next two days, the mention was removed and reinstated by various other users based on industry sources/lack of confirmation. E.g.: , ,
- The edit-warring really began on 6 January, when @Ibeaa: removed the mention. At this point, the suicide had been confirmed, and Ibeaa did not provide a reason. Possibly worth noting is that Ibeaa's edit was made the exact minute the article's protection was removed. Diff:
- On 7 January, IP 2804:d41:cb23:cc00:f4ae:3bc:747e:e196 adds it back. Diff: Also on 7 January, Ibeaa removed it and the reference without explanation. Diff:
- The next user to re-add the info was @ZanderAlbatraz1145:, who also did not use an edit reason, on 9 January. Diff:
- The IP 2800:355:9:f9f3:3059:222e:2783:93b8 removed it, without an edit reason, on 11 January. Diff:
- @Sundayclose: reverted the IP on the same day. Diff:
- Ibeaa then removed the mention again, also on 11 January. Diff:
- Zander then adds it back on 13 January, still without a reason. Not massively relevant, but Zander used the deprecated phrasing
committed suicide
for the first time in this edit, which IP 50.71.82.63 fixed. Diff: - Between 13 and the morning (GMT) of 15 January, Zander added and Ibeaa removed the information five times each, no edit reasons in sight.
- I (Kingsif) removed it on 15 January, tucked into the BLP edit, to try and stop the pair from edit warring by saying it should also be discussed. I should have probably done them as separate edits. Diff:
- Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 15 January. Diff:
- On 16 January, I again removed it as part of the larger edit. I made a clearer separation in this edit reason, to explain that because inclusion is (clearly) contentious, it should be discussed. Diff:
- Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 16 January. Diff:
- Ibeaa removes it, without a reason, also on 16 January. Diff:
- Sundayclose added it back on 16 January, with the explanation that it is
accurate and properly sourced
. FWIW, while accurate, it was sourced to People magazine, which ten days earlier was not accepted as a suitable source for the same information at the Jeff Baena article. Recently-deceased needs more than a celebrity magazine that actually says "unconfirmed but believed". More pressing, I would expect Sundayclose to have pushed for discussion as the inclusion was clearly contentious. Diff: - Ibeaa then removed again on 16 January, with the reason that they didn't know why they were still pursuing the edit war. I would have honestly interpreted that to mean they weren't going to continue, but anyway. Diff:
- Ibeaa's conduct was already reported here at ANI by Sundayclose, on 17 January, and they were blocked quickly. Archive.
- I don't know and won't speculate as to why Sundayclose did not also report Zander at this time.
- After Ibeaa is blocked, Zander continues their side of the edit war on 17 January, still without providing an edit reason. Diff:
- I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
- Zander then adds the information back, without starting a discussion, before page protection is applied. They appear to have seen this ANI report, as they included an edit reason. Included in the edit reason is that it didn't seem
vital enough
to explain themselves, which I can't accept in good faith given they were going back-and-forth directly with Ibeaa and had been told to discuss since the inclusion had proven contentious. Diff:
- This is a lot of data. But it seems like if edit-warring is the problem, a complaint filed at WP:ANEW or a request for page protection at WP:RFP would be more suitable than ANI. Liz 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- You know I'm not a massive fan of ANI and would really prefer to dump data and let y'all assess it yourselves, but if this is to be pursued beyond the immediate article protection (as you can see, it seems to be a magnet), then as I see it what we have is: one case of not-too-bad edit warring from Religião, but with quite BIO/BLP sensitive information and a user who has indicated they will not abide if they disagree, and then one case of probably fine content from Zander, but with truly chronic edit warring and the attitude that since the other guy was blocked they're righteous. Both users have been informed of BLP-contentious but the intersection of the actual edit warring with their flippant-at-best attitudes and the particular sensitive area, makes me think that some further addressing (at least asking them to acknowledge the issues) is needed to make sure it doesn't recur. Kingsif (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Death threats by 2.98.176.93
BLOCKED Blocked and TPA revoked, nothing further. (non-admin closure) Heart 07:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2.98.176.93 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Left a death threat here - diff
Adakiko (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note: 30 day block by Bbb23 (talk · contribs) Adakiko (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Death threat left after block. Talk page access? Adakiko (talk) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- TPA removed. Liz 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. Liz 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - The Bushranger One ping only 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. 2600:1011:B331:28FE:1036:B7B1:4292:C997 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you use Twinkle, you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. Liz 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you use Twinkle, you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Exactly, The Bushranger, thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. Liz 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See WP:UTRS for your options." Cullen328 (talk) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. 2600:1011:B331:28FE:1036:B7B1:4292:C997 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - The Bushranger One ping only 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated copyvios by Manannan67
- Manannan67 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Manannan67 has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (2020, 2020, a "final warning" in 2021 from Moneytrees, 2023, 2023), most recently from me, when I discovered a copyright violation they placed on Mariana de Jesús Torres. The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did remove one early warning from the talk page. Dclemens1971 (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to Anglo-Saxon mission which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. Manannan67 (talk) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to Mariana de Jesús Torres. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. Dclemens1971 (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." Manannan67 (talk) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I have no idea to what you are referring. As I said, I am not familiar with "Portraits of the Saints", nor do I know from where they got their info. Manannan67 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." Manannan67 (talk) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to Mariana de Jesús Torres. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. Dclemens1971 (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Naniwoofg
Naniwoofg (talk · contribs) has been the subject of a complaint at Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines#User:Naniwoofg for issues involving images and WP:IDNHT. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint includes refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. Borgenland (talk) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can we get a follow-up on this? @Naniwoofg has failed to respond to all inquiries on affected article talk pages, their user talk page, and the Tambayan PH talk page. We have been reverting their unexplained and unusual edits to the infoboxes of several Philippine road and building articles back and forth for the past few days. Ganmatthew (talk • contribs) 07:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support sanctioning this user. One latest questionable edit is on Pulilan article, which I partially fixed. Naniwoofg claimed to had updated the infobox images, but the user used an image of the Pulilan Church before the 2019 renovation. I replaced Naniwoofg's choice of the church image with the one image taken after the renovation. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Okvishal and years of self promotion
Okvishal indef'd. Article has been deleted (at its most recent title attempt, Vishal Raaj) and salt applied to all three variations that have been used. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Okvishal: has been an editor for 14 years. They have 138 edits but only 11 of them are non-deleted ones and those non deleted ones are also for self promotion or promotion of their feature film. A look at their talkpage shows the sheer scale of self promotional editing they have done over the course of their wikicareer. Right after joining they created an autobiography which was speedy deleted, they recreated the article under a different title and it was deleted (speedy) as well. Over the course of 14 years, they have recreated their article and those of related topics several times all leading to waste of community time through AfDs as Vishal Raj,Dream Lock,Nikkesha, and most recently at Vishal Raaj. It is clear that they are not (and never were) here to build an encyclopaedia. Consider blocking them and WP:SALTing Vishal Raj,Vishal Raaj,Raj Vishal etc. Nxcrypto Message 12:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've blocked them as it's clear they're only here to promote their non-notable self. Canterbury Tail talk 22:29, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of viewMisplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion, maybe more)
- Cherkash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see Russo-Ukrainian_War#Background, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4).
The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the Formula_one pages and even had raised the issue here (old link), with no visible actions following.
Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg
They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints.
Other examples can be seen from commons:Special:Contributions/Cherkash, such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: example 1, example 2
The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN International reactions to the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262, United Nations General Assembly resolution A/73/L.47, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4.
I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content. Unas964 (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the User talk page, e.g. about normalising separatist states, and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in the corresponding topic.
- I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via de facto statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often replicated by other contributors, which I cannot even comment on. Unas964 (talk) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here is a link to the last time this was raised here.
- The short form: there appears to be a dispute between use of de-facto or de-jure borders. That is why Taiwan comes up. Some editors appear to believe that it is more neutral to either use de facto borders (Taiwan independent, Crimea not part of Ukraine) rather than de jure borders (Taiwan = China, Crimea = Ukraine).
- I would suggest, whether de facto or de jurw borders are used the map should be consistent in that usage. I would also suggest that Unas964 (talk · contribs) should adhere to WP:AGF while Cherkash (talk · contribs) needs to start communicating with other editors at least minimally, which will likely ease such assumptions regarding their editing.Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In any case, what's the alleged misbehaviour here? We can't stop an editor uploading images on commons, nor can we do anything about what is in their categories. We can prevent these images being used in our articles but is the editor actually the one putting them in our articles? Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am the editor in question. I am Ukrainian. This is not anti Ukrainian, it’s anti nazi. Everything is true and properly sourced. Problems don’t get fixed unless you recognize them. I’ve given specific criticisms about the encyclopedia that are all true and added known contributors. This is not a anti Ukrainian effort and I’m very taken back by this accusation. Clearly nobody here is assuming good faith 2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321 (talk) 17:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Occupation of Crimea is anti nazi? What proper source can prove that? Only Russian propagandists exploit such a narrative. Unas964 (talk) 18:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
UN Resolutions are not Misplaced Pages guidelines. They're not even binding for the countries involved, let alone Misplaced Pages. UN Resolutions do not recognize Taiwan nor Israeli current borders, yet we recognize their independence and their de facto territories in out articles. De jure, there's no Taiwan, and Israel is still at war with Iraq since 1947. De jure, the Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union. Do we care? Misplaced Pages focuses on facts, the de facto state of the world, not bound by temporary laws made by temporary entities which often don't even recognize each other: according to Bhutan, de jure there's no Croatia; according to Greece, there's no Northern Cyprus; according to Serbia, there's no Kosovo; according to the UN, there's no Taiwan... should we follow them? Of course not. You're free to be pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian, as long as you stick to facts. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My only horse in this race is that Misplaced Pages should be consistent, at least at the level of any given artifact (such as a map), of showing either de jure borders, de facto borders or no borders at all. It is non-neutral to pick and choose de facto for thee, de jure for me. Simonm223 (talk) 14:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their de facto state. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Taiwan is de facto independent and de jure non-independent so I think you may have the terms backward there. However this speaks to my point - the important thing, from a neutrality position, is to stick to a consistent method of parsing these factual questions. Because, in a lot of these cases, it's not a matter of "facts over anything" but is rather making a positive decision which set of facts to prefer. It is a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine. It is also a fact that Crimea is not presently being administered by Ukraine and is thus de facto not part of that country. If we have a map that chooses to prefer the de jure condition of Crimea as part of Ukraine and then to use the de facto boundary between China and Taiwan this is now non-neutral. It's Misplaced Pages failing to set a consistent standard and instead going based on vibes.
- Standards must be consistent. Ideally these standards should be consistent across the project and documented in an MOS. Failing that these standards should be consistent within any given article. Failing that these standards absolutely must be consistent in an indivisible artifact such as a map.
- As a corollary it is in favour of Misplaced Pages's neutrality goals to prefer a consistent representation of borders, whether that is de facto, de jure or to not show national borders at all (which remains an option). Now I will note that I didn't see much in the way of talk page discussion or of edit summaries from @Cherkash - which I pointed out as somewhere they could improve in my original comment - but if Cherkash is, in fact, motivated by wanting a consistent standard for depicting national boundaries on a map then @Unas964 has seriously failed to assume good faith by depicting said forwarding of neutrality goals as if it were a hate-motivated attack on Ukraine. Simonm223 (talk) 15:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I don't
have the terms backward there
. I literally stated thatDe jure, there's no Taiwan
, and also what I meant forfacts, the de facto state of the world
. Please, work on your reading and comprehension skills before making such accusations. Misplaced Pages requires competence. // and no, it is nota fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine
, as de jurethe Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union
, as I had already wrote, because de jure the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet didn't have the authority to mandate land exchanges among constituent states, power which they only had de facto. Do better. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) - Taiwan is not de jure non-independent, de jure inherently requires picking a jure so to speak. It's a ruling from within a legal system, not a natural fact. That said, I agree picking maps with particular borders is not hateful conduct. If there's diffs of something else, it would be helpful to see them. CMD (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to that logic, any war crime or mass genocide could be justified by neutrality and Misplaced Pages:AGF. In theory, that does not align with Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT, since neutrality cannot allow for extremist views. Yet considering the replies here, I conclude that there is a consensus on Misplaced Pages that in the Russo-Ukrainian_War the positions of the victim and the aggressor are treated as equal or in favour of the former. Unas964 (talk) 17:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration Unas964 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is fast reaching WP:NOTFORUM territory. Simonm223 (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- We also have WP:RUSUKR. Mellk (talk) 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is fast reaching WP:NOTFORUM territory. Simonm223 (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration Unas964 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I don't
- @Simonm223: Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their de facto state. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is no point in speculating what was legal or not in a totalitarian state, where laws are primarily instruments for maintaining control and suppressing opposition rather than upholding justice (see e.h. here). The soviet/Russian viewpoint on Crimea has the same zero value as the position of Third Reich on the state of Israel. It cannot be attributed to the same weight as of the democratic countries as Ukraine, Israel, the US etc. In the same way, you could justify the Khmer Rouge terror, Tiananmen Square massacre, Holocaust and 9/11 attacks by some de facto laws. Soviet regime murdered tens of millions of people, and the current Russian legal system justifies that: not only Holodomor, the genocide of Crimean Tatars and the other indigenous minorities in Crimea, but in oher regions, as well (as e.g. Asharshylyk). That renders de facto maps a propaganda instrument of a malevolent state, which could not be accepted on any basis of neutrality.
- Yet you equalise the positions of tyranical dictatorships and democratic countries while rejecting the UN resolutions. I see this as a violation of Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT and consider not to be taken into discussion at all. Unas964 (talk) 07:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't help but notice that the editor this complaint is concerned with, Cherkash, hasn't responded and hasn't edited on the project since January 12th and has barely edited in 2025 at all. What was the urgency in posting this complaint right now, Unas964? Liz 03:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is urgent as long as there is the ongoing war undermining the Ukrainian territorial integrity. If Misplaced Pages policies (WP:RUSUKR,Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT etc) allow for undermining the legacy of Ukrainian state in favour of the aggressor, which such maps do under some consensus or de facto bodrers pretexts, then indeed it has no sense.
- If not, I shall propose to remove all of those maps in all relevant articles, treating them as tools to normalise the occupation of Crimea. Unas964 (talk) 07:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I'm a bit concerned that Unas964 has committed to continuing to edit in the Russia-Ukraine war CTOP after being informed of the ECR restriction. This includes continuing to argue about the map, calling a warning from another editor regarding WP:CANVAS "pro-Russian attacks." this whole thing at this thread among other diffs that I will leave off as being, you know, quite visible already in this conversation. I am concerned that they have a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality since their edit summary on my attempt to point them to WP:RGW was reverted with an edit summary of pro-Russian spam deleted - very similar to the previous pro-Russian attacks" comment. People are free to clerk their own talk pages as they see fit but to characterize "The encyclopedia, in fact, tries to be neutral regarding global conflicts, cleaving to what reliable sources say about those conflicts but generally making sure to attribute any notable opinions on the conflict to the opinion-holder," as pro-Putin is a bit of an alarming response as is responding to concerns regarding canvassing by accusing the editor of pro-Russian attacks. I am worried that Unas964, as in their interaction with Cherkash that led to this thread, is incapable of assuming good faith and also seems unwilling to comply with ECR restrictions surrounding the war in question. Simonm223 (talk) 13:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can confirm that - yes - I consider multiplying warnings and threats to me without any try to search an alternative or copromise a pro-Russian stand. I see no support either, only bullying to preserve the status quo of the pro-Russian view on the matter. Unas964 (talk) 14:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal - short duration block for Unas964
I am not going to ask for an indef here as I don't really want to bite the newbie but this has gone on for long enough. Unas964 is very aware that extended confirmed status is required to edit on the Russia / Ukraine conflict and yet continues not only to do so, but to do so in a way that is highly confrontational, completely fails to WP:AGF and that is replete with WP:NPA violations. They have a severe WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and hasten to accuse anyone who attempts to help them understand concepts such as WP:RGW of being Putinists. I think it's high time that they are demonstrated that such behaviour will have a consequence. A tban is inappropriate because this editor already should not be editing in this CTOP. So that really only leaves us with a block to get their attention and to hopefully stem this disruptive behaviour. Simonm223 (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support I completely agree with everything Simonm223 mentions. I also want to add that Unas964 doesn't seem to be taking others' rebuttals into account. Instead, he just either brushes them off or completely disregards them, as can be seen in basically this whole thread. Just scroll down and you'll see what I mean. SportscarFan2004 (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Hamzajanah posting vanity hoaxes and general NOTHERE behaviour
WP:NOTHERE user is no longer here. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Hamzajanah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm really struggling with this new user. They have posted Draft:Hamza JanaH and Draft:Hamza janaH both autobiographies and both contained multiple hoaxes. They are continually using Misplaced Pages as a WP:SOAPBOX and violating WP:NOTWEBHOST too. They are constantly boasting about their wealth, see this diff for example. They claim to be a close associate of William J. Burns (diplomat), Christopher A. Wray and Bob Ferguson (politician). They are also misusing their own talk page. I have not seen one constructive edit and their filter log is one of the worst I've seen and also warns us of "persistent sockpuppetry". This is bordering on WP:NOTHERE already. Their ability to navigate Misplaced Pages suggests that they might have had previous accounts and might even be an LTA vandal but I can't think who it is. Spiderone 17:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That filter is notoriously poor for detecting socks. I believe it was created with one sockmaster in mind, and yet based on how it functions (I'm not good at filters), comes up with many (mostly?) false positives.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that that's a fair outcome. Thanks all. Spiderone 18:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Edward Myer
- Edward Myer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Edward Myer was recently blocked for two weeks, for creating a sock account to retaliate against myself and another AfC reviewer whose reviews they didn't like. (The socking was just the tip of the iceberg, there's much more to this as their talk page shows.) That block expired a few days ago, and since then they're back on the war footing, complaining and insinuating here, there and everywhere; as well as posting similar stuff on the talk pages of UtherSRG, 28bytes and AmandaNP. I think this needs to stop; for one thing it's a time sink, and I for one really don't care for the belligerence. I don't think I should be the one to indef them, as I'm involved, but I'd be grateful if someone did. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 18:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not involved except insofar as I have declined Draft:Bruse Wane, but I saw their behaviour towards others and it made me consider whether I would make a review, especially to decline. A less resilient reviewer might well have avoided it.
- I confess that I am waiting for the invective, and I support DoubleGrazing's well measured request on that basis.
- My view is for one final attempt in case they are educable. If they are not then 'final' should mean 'indefinite editing restrictions' 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 18:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been WP:FORUMSHOPPING, . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at User:Edward Myer/sandbox. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. (talk) TiggerJay (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, the sandbox may have a better shot at acceptance! I aways believe in extending my good faith as far as possible. I have seen some remarkable turnarounds by doing so. Obviously there comes a point, but I am not wholly sure we are there yet. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been WP:FORUMSHOPPING, . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at User:Edward Myer/sandbox. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. (talk) TiggerJay (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the initiative in filing this ANI, DG; I was || this close to filing it myself. This user just doesn't get it. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. Edward Myer (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The above post is a duplicate of that posted at Help Desk. Schazjmd (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. Edward Myer (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Seems like a clear case of WP:NOTHERE and just wanting to push an article to mainspace and WP:IAR without even citing such. Sounds like a longer block may be necessary. TiggerJay (talk) 23:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Edward Myer, this is serious. Have you read over this complaint? Can you let this grudge go and go on to do some productive editing and let the past be the past? If you continue on this path, I don't see you editing on Misplaced Pages for the long term. This is a moment where you can choose to change your approach and turn around you time here as an editor. But it is up to your willingness to do so. Does that sound like something you can and want to do? Liz 02:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My field of expertise is Hip Hop. I do intend to do other articles on other subjects, and add relevant updates to current live articles. I'm here to be apart of the community and contribute to[REDACTED] in a specific field that I'm passionate about. I hold no grudge or ill will for no one. As I said to LiZ I had to get adjusted to how communication on[REDACTED] works. Edward Myer (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before any action is taken, I have made a substantial offer of assistance to Edward Myer on their user talk page. I am no-one special to make the offer, and I would like us to take a little time to see if it can be effective before reaching any conclusion. I have had some success before with helping editors who are in pain here. The offer is in the spirit of my early post in this thread. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 07:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. Edward Myer (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We have started to work together. May I suggest respectfully that any other matters be set aside for the duration? They can always be returned to if deemed necessary. My hope is that editors will not feel it to be necessary. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. Edward Myer (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My concern is the sock. Edward Myer, do you promise never to sock again? GoodDay (talk) 14:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Please revoke TPA from JEIT BRANDS
Done. Black Kite (talk) 20:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- JEIT BRANDS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Talk page abuse, still spamming after block, please revoke TPA -Lemonaka 18:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Continual ECP-Violating Posts in WP:RUSUKR area by User_talk:Valentinianus_I
Blocked for a week. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- _Valentinianus I (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Valentinianus I is an editor with 80 edits as of the moment I'm writing this, the majority of edits made to WP:RUSUKR topics.
- As background, this editor was notified repeatedly by User:Mellk in August , and clarified . Melik again notified Valentinianus a month later in response to more edits that were not exempt , .
- Valentinianus was blocked for a few weeks in October until User:Rosguill unblocked them after giving benefit of the doubt. I'm only bringing this up because Rosguill, during the unblock reference notified Valentinianus that they would "like you to confirm that you've read and understand Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Russo-Ukrainian War#Remedies by identifying edits that you have made in violation of it, and how you will observe it going forward."
- User:Isabelle Belato notified Valentinianus on 1/18 that they were making inappropriate edits in violation of RUSUKR and was violating WP:BATTLEGROUND as well . Valentinianus replied that asking for a rename and calling for a subsequent rename vote were edit requests .
After that reply to Isabelle Belato (so that there is no question Valentinianus is aware of the latest warning), Valentinianus made five additional edits to Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine. None were remotely along the line of constructive edit requests, the problematic ones being to argue that a source is a "Ukrainian shill site" , a project complaint about the infobox , and WP:ASPERSIONS about the bad faith of the other editors on the talk page .
While in isolation, no individual edit is egregious, this editor has been warned several times about the limits of RUSUKR, and adding WP:BATTLEGROUNDS, WP:AGF , and WP:ASPERSIONS violations in this area to the number of WP:ECP violations, I believe an indefinite topic ban from WP:RUSUKR topics, broadly construed, is appropriate. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 19:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've just blocked them for a week instead. If they're ignoring the ECR restrictions, they'll just ignore a topic ban; that's because the reason they're ignoring the ECR restrictions is either WP:CIR or the fact that they don't care, and either would apply to a topic ban as well. Perhaps they'll get the message after this block, or perhaps they won't at which point we can look at further sanctions (which, let's face it, is likely to be an indef). Black Kite (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that the prior block before this was a sockpuppetry block, which I lifted as I found their explanation of how they came to make their edits plausible. The further editing since the unblock as outlined in the block actioned by Black Kite seems appropriate. signed, Rosguill 22:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are we looking at the same editor, CoffeeCrumbs? Rosguill never unblocked this editor but Beeblebrox did back in December. Liz 01:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's a few comments here that seem muldly disconnected from exactly what happened previous to this, but probably not to the point whee it changes the math on this latest block. Beeblebrox 02:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It appears I was unclear. I was quoting Rosguill's reminder about RUSUKR in the conversation about a possible unblock . My point wasn't about the block itself, but that the editor received an additional warning about their edits in that area. I missed including that specific diff. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 10:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User talk page access, Wiseguy012
I'm just going to close this. If Wiseguy012 returns and continues to rant or issues personal attacks, please return to ANI. Liz 04:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blocked user WiseGuy012 is using their talk page only for the purpose of continuing the rant that they got blocked for at Talk:Tagine and that they continued there as a sock account, Friend0113, which is also now blocked. See . Revoke user talk page access? Largoplazo (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, Largoplazo,
- There is no User:WiseGuy012 account. Did you mean someone else? Liz 01:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wiseguy012, lower g. CMD (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks CMD. They are just ranting to themselves, not attacking anyone. An admin might come by, review this complaint and remove TPA but I don't find it egregious enough to act. Typically blocked editors can act like this right after they discover they've been blocked but then they move on and leave Misplaced Pages or they start creating sockpuppets and that's a bigger problem than a talk page rant. Too soon to tell right now. But it doesn't seem ANI-worthy to me. Liz 01:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- The things some people decide to get mad about.... What they posted on the talk page was a copyright violation in its entirety, so that's gone, and I've warned them for that and let them know further disruption of any kind will cause them to lose talk page access. Beeblebrox 01:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry about the G, and thanks for the guidance about the talk page access. Largoplazo (talk) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Still misuse of talk page for spamming. -Lemonaka 07:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That content was posted hours ago and was similar to what was reported here in the complaint. Liz 08:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Caste-based disruption
HistorianAlferedo has engaged in contentious WP:BATTLEGROUND style editing in the WP:CASTE related sanctioned topic area for quite sometime now. The user being repeatedly warned and clearly aware of these sanctions (evident from the removal of warning notices on their talk page) shows no signs of desisting. The editing pattern follows a faux concern of caste promotion by removing genuine well-sourced and known information all the while engaging in Rajput POV in multiple articles. That the editor isn't new is also evident from the fact that they can handedly cite obscure policies such as WP:RAJ (of course incorrectly and disingenously). Lisiting some particuarly egregious edits:
- , , , : deliberate insertion of incorrect wikilinks and false removals to obscure that the empresses were Rajput princesses
- : clearly falsifying an acronym (note the insertion of a dubious reference which nonetheless has nothing to do with the article subject)
- , , , , : POV caste-based insertions
- , : POV caste-based removals
This only a fraction of the tendentious edits in the user's topic warrior style editing related to Indian history and social groups. Not to mention the insertion of multiple non-RS refs when it suits the preferred POV while claiming to remove them in other articles. Considering the history, ediitng restrictions should follow in the form of a WP:CASTE t-ban or a general one till the user can show that they are not going to be in violation of enwiki policies anymore (all the more necessary considering the IP socking , ). Bringing this to ANI on advice of the editor themselves: . Gotitbro (talk) 11:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Gotitbro, you MUST notify the editor that you have posted this complaint. Please do so. Liz 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Done Gotitbro (talk) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Actually i was only editing and adding new information along with genuine citations. I had no motive for any sort of vandalism or anything else. Based on the knowledge about various topics of Indian history i was just trying to contribute in a positive way. Moreover some of the allegations by user Gotitbro are totally irrelevant, i’m not an indian but interested in the topics related to Indian history. New editors should be supported by the old ones and not demotivated with false allegations. Alright, if the old editors don’t want the new ones to contribute to[REDACTED] even in a good way then i’ll definitely even delete my account from wikipedia. Thank you HistorianAlferedo (talk) 08:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- HistorianAlferedo, I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. Liz 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay @Liz. Please have a look at pages: Ghiyath al-Din Tughluq and Firuz Shah Tughlaq, I added relevant information along with scholarly work sources but user:@Gotitbro just reverted all the changes without even looking at the correct citations. That’s why i thought now i won’t edit and visit[REDACTED] as few users here just try to show off their ranks, there are good wikipedians and administrators too but a few of them are doing this with the new contributors. Thank you HistorianAlferedo (talk) 15:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- HistorianAlferedo, I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. Liz 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
On-wiki hounding, off-wiki soliciting, and severe stalking by User:SerChevalerie
I wanted to let go this and move on, but considering my uncertain future with SerChevalerie, I had to take this to ANI.
To give a little background of the editing behavioural problems with the above mentioned editor, it started around late June 2024 when I made this edit . This was followed by his immediate reverts and significant edits . I had no problem with this, as this article was something wherein a third party editor had requested to expand it in a local Misplaced Pages WhatsApp group we were part of.
Both me and SerChevalerie were part of this WhatsApp group of Wikipedians from Goa. Having known each other online for over two years, and we shared the same native state. The problems arrived when he got back active on Misplaced Pages after a break of roughly 4 years and went on serious stalking my edits, the page I contributed, but mainly the pages that I created. As am In WP:Inclusionist and I love creating articles, but this was something he went overly critical on.
From June to August 2024, most of the edits SerChevalerie made were pertaining to the articles that I significantly worked on or created. During this, I was much subject to WP:HOUNDING on major of the articles I created such as Tsumyoki, you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just WP:BLUDGEON, arguing by citing essays like WP: 10YEARTEST instead of finding a resolution or just WP:DTS. It was until I finally took the decision to take it to WP:3O we reached a consensus after several days of discussion.
Over the course of some 30 articles that I created from June to August 2024, SerChevalerie has made edits which often times were seen as annoying and major stalking behaviour. He also likes to stay at the "top of the order" constantly as you can on articles such as Julião Menezes as per his latest "copyedit". During this period of two months almost entirely of his edits he has made were only pertaining to my articles.
When I had nominated his article Goa Revolution Day for SD, he then tried to solicit and I felt harrassed after he took his arguments to WhatsApp. Even after saying I don't want to discus this off-wiki he forced it upon me by confronting me in a group of 200-250 Wikipedians and having his arguments posted there. This is the same whatsapp group we were part of. And I have the relevant evidence with me.
SerChevalerie also has undisclosed COI with articles such creating and editing his grandfather's article significantly Gerald Pereira and a suspected COI paid editing on article like Subodh Kerkar. I have relevant evidence to support this claim. You can also check the latter's talk page where he claims that he "recreated" entirely on the article after it had some issues when it was created, see
He also seems to want a Misplaced Pages article on himself by using his connections and other Wikipedians to help him feature on the news (or possibly paid news) see here (Redacted). I find this featured article on him rather suspicious as it was published when SerChevalerie barely returned back to editing after 4 years.
When I had to quit Misplaced Pages for over 4 months due to my poor mental health because of him, he too wasn't very active on Misplaced Pages as he noticed I wasn't active anymore. You can check his edit history around the months of October and November this made me realise that SerChevalerie might have WP:OCD relating to my presence on Misplaced Pages itself. When I returned back to editing in early January this year, I made my first edit on the article J. C. Almeida. The next day he tries to repeat the same behaviour of stalking me and "staying on top" of the page. See . Please note that he didn't have any editing history on this page untill I edited it.
I still feel constantly watched by this editor everytime I am on Misplaced Pages. I want to propose to the community for a block on SerChevalerie or having placed WP:Sanctions on articles that I create so that he stops this behaviour. He also knows my real name and I don't want to get WP:Outed or doxxed by him as we both are from Goa, India. I'm afraid he might just get my residence address and does any harm. I just want to get rid of this issue and move on. Rejoy(talk) 11:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't looked at everything, and especially not the off-wiki claims, but I get the impression the behavior issues may not be as one-sided as presented.
"During this, I was much subject to WP:HOUNDING on major of the articles I created such as Tsumyoki, you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just WP:BLUDGEON, arguing by citing essays like WP: 10YEARTEST instead of finding a resolution or just WP:DTS."
- In this talk page you're both volleying policy pages, essays, and vague accusations at each other, but the concerns SerChevalerie raised about this article were not unfounded. It starts from something reasonable, and you both escalate at lightning speed.
- If I look at your interactions, I'm not sure I see the story of one-sided WP:HOUNDING. You both edit similar pages and regularly get into arguments.
- I don't see you trying to disengage with this user either, you've served him three different level 1 warning templates, now you're escalating to ANI with more inflammatory statements. If you're seriously worried about physical harm, please disregard this and rush to Misplaced Pages:Responding to threats of harm, but at least in the diffs you've linked, I don't see much credible threat of physical harm. Mlkj (talk) 14:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- On-wiki evidence here, off-wiki evidence arbcom. Too long to read and wall of text. -Lemonaka 08:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
User:TTYDDoopliss and gender-related edits
Indeffed by Canterbury Tail EvergreenFir (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)I just wanted to add that TTYDDoopliss was found to be the sockpuppet of an editor many of us became familiar with last spring on ANI and the Teahouse. Liz 04:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- TTYDDoopliss (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Summary: Is there a non-male administrator willing to provide some guidance to this editor, particularly in edits related to gender?
The user in question is relatively new. (Yes, an early edit stated she had a previous account, but she used it for roughly one day in December 2024 before losing her password, and she had no warnings at all on the account, so abuse of multiple accounts does not apply here.
With her new account, she quickly received a message alerting her that gender is a contentious topic, so she is CTOPS/aware of gender issues. After which, she has made edits including:
- This sequence of edits to List of media notable for being in development hell:
- Edit summary: men don’t be utterly deprived and ruin women’s lives by being a sex pest challenge (don’t revert if you’re a man, you’re disgusting and I want nothing to do with you guys)
- Edit summary: Undid revision 1270571008 by C.Fred (talk) how many more women are going to be hurt by continuing to let men like this in the game industry
- To Dawn M. Bennett, removing an image with the edit summary she has cleavage, which means men will want to screw her if they see the image
- To her own user talk, removing a thread that included warnings with the edit summary please leave me alone, im trying to lessen my suffering as a woman in a male-dominated world
I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I concede her point that, generally speaking, men in the world have done and continue to do pretty crappy things to women. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs, and IMO, some of her edits are even going counter to the viewpoint she holds. I also know that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social platform, and I worry that her behaviour, unchecked, will result in her crossing a line that gets her blocked, where an admin, regardless of gender, has to stop the disruption.
I'd like somebody to reach out to her to give her some advice before it gets to that point, and—while I generally think that any editor can do any job on Misplaced Pages regardless of gender—I think this a situation where a non-male or cisfemale administrator should be the one to make the contact. —C.Fred (talk) 15:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest that if there's any founded concerns a trans woman would get bitten in this hypothetical interaction then we should probably just WP:NOTHERE right now. However then I went and looked at the diffs in question and the discussion that was on the user's talk page and I have to ask: has anyone considered this might all be a troll? Simonm223 (talk) 15:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- perhaps my useful non-gender related edits might tip you off to the fact that im not a troll? here’s something non-gender related articles i fixed up: Monster-taming game, Cookie Run: Kingdom, Acer Aspire One Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this is a straightforward WP:RGW or WP:NOTTHERAPY block. Misplaced Pages quite a number of women editors and they seem to be fine and don't seem to experience overt persecution. I just don't see how this user can reasonably be expected to collaborate with others, a core requirement of Misplaced Pages editing, if they're just going to accuse everyone else of being misogynists. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them removing mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, Poe's law in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TTYDDoopliss Hrm. So is the inference that you willingly and knowingly made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —C.Fred (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Honestly I don't think you're in any sort of distress at all. As I think, rather, that you are trolling Misplaced Pages and WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 18:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TTYDDoopliss Hrm. So is the inference that you willingly and knowingly made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —C.Fred (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, Poe's law in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them removing mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
benefit of the doubt
– Pardon me, but what doubt could there possibly be? EEng 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Surprised they weren't blocked after calling the vast majority of en.wiki contributors "nerdy men". EF 16:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- that’s… not an insult? just an observation Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL Simonm223 (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. EF 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. EF 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I go to the talk pages of articles, no one ever responds. I just operate over WP:BRD, it’s easier and takes less time. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. EF 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. EF 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL Simonm223 (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- that’s… not an insult? just an observation Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- i mean you requested “guidance”, everyone else is suggesting indef which is not what i had in mind when you left this here. id gladly take a gensex topic ban over never being able to edit ever again. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm suspecting trolling, here. GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for WP:CIVIL violations. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information about the exploitation caused by the games industry - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make women working in the games industry literally less visible, seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body
Be that as it may, leave that attitude at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- clearly you’ve never had a phobia, or OCD. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. Tarlby 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've already been told by Liz, so it's up to you now. Either acknowledge and take on the board the advice you have been given, or yes, you will likely be blocked. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Acknowledge that your past actions were wrong and disruptive, you promise to never do them again, and from here on contribute constructively. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. Tarlby 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- clearly you’ve never had a phobia, or OCD. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information about the exploitation caused by the games industry - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make women working in the games industry literally less visible, seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for WP:CIVIL violations. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- TTYDDoopliss, I'll cut to the chase rather than participating in a debate over what your motivation is for some of your editing. I'm a female administrator and you've been brought to ANI. While this is sometimes done for frivolous reasons, for the most part, unless vandalism is occurring, complaints are brought here to resolve in order that harsher sanctions won't be necessary. It's an attempt to address problems before a block becomes necessary. There is a view that your glib messages asserting a POV regarding sexism or editors on this project are inappropriate and borderline unacceptable. Can you cease with the personal commentary here? Because if you can not, there will not be a third chance, my Misplaced Pages experience tells me that a block from editing of some duration will be coming your way. So, the choice is up to you at this point. Act professionally and not like Misplaced Pages is some kind of discussion forum, or have your editing privileges removed.
- And to reinforce this in case it needs to be emphasized, this is not about sexism or gender really, it's about NPOV and disruptive editing. You'd be getting a similar message if you were making side comments about politics, ethnicity, race or any other subjects that cross over into contentious subject areas. These are designated areas where sloppy editing and off-the-cuff comments are sanctioned if the editor can't control her/himself. From a nerdy female editor, Liz 18:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- is there any other way I can make Misplaced Pages a better place for women? How about a policy like WP:CHILDPROTECT but for women? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this edit. A perfectly normal picture of a woman was removed with a weird and offensively sexualised edit summary. I can't begin to stress how perfectly normal that picture is. There are two possibilities here. One is that this is anti-feminist trolling under a false flag but the other is that TTYDDoopliss is exactly what she claims to be and was genuinely triggered by a perfectly ordinary picture of a woman at an awards ceremony. If the later then she is clearly in no state to be able to edit Misplaced Pages at this time. Pictures like that turn up all over Misplaced Pages. If we have stronger evidence of deliberate trolling elsewhere then obviously that's an indef (of both the old and new accounts) but if that edit was made in good faith then I think a temporary block would be best for all concerned. It would give TTYDDoopliss an opportunity to come back later if she is well enough, and if she wants to, of course. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's this which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- What we would expect is to find WP:MEDRS compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in WP:OR in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, exacerbating this, you were already engaged here with people raising concerns about your widespread disruptive editing, which had been explained to you, before you made this edit. Which makes it quite deliberated disruption. Simonm223 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- What we would expect is to find WP:MEDRS compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in WP:OR in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK. Now I'm looking at this edit and that does seem a lot more like trolling. The edit summary sounds like an anti-feminist parody of a feminist and the actual edit is to remove coverage of an alleged sex offender. Given that sexual misconduct is a serious issue in the video games industry it seems implausible that even the most misguided feminist would try to cover it up. I know that mental illness can express itself in many ways but... I just don't buy it. DanielRigal (talk) 19:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I removed it because it made me upset.
What? Have you read WP:NPOV and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just WP:TROLLING, a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- fine ill shut up now Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just WP:TROLLING, a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit also looks like parody. Simonm223 (talk) 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the male protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one said or implied any such thing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don't exist to fulfill men's needs. That is very true. However desire for a partner can certainly be part of a character's motivation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one said or implied any such thing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit actually takes a WP:MEDRS cited statement and rewrites it to say something that the RS did not say not once but twice. In addition, there is the claim that erasing sexual orientation as a possible subject of obsessive and compulsive ideation is somehow reducing heteronormative bias. Which is somewhat contrary to what I would expect from a sincere feminist editor. Simonm223 (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit is somewhat better than average. At least the source says, "Insofar as they affect women, bromances, when taken in conjunction with monogamous heterosexual relationships, decrease the burden on women to provide all the care work for their partners."
- However "all the care work" is paraphrased by Doopliss to "The increasing tolerance of bromances relives pressure on women to be emotionally intimate with men," which is... not... the same thing. But at least I can look at the source, look at the statement and draw a line between them, however tenuous. Simonm223 (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, this too supports my "troll" hypothesis since the very next paragraph of the Chen source begins "Bromances reinforce gender hierarchy, bolster marriage as the goveming, archetypal intimate relationship, and normalize homophobia." So we have an article crtical of bromance being used to praise it for getting men out of womens' hair. Simonm223 (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the male protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's this which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's clear some form of block is necessary now. Tarlby 19:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because you have disrupted multiple topics. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And that's it. That's the proof that we are being played. An inexperienced user would not be advocating for a topic ban. An inexperienced user would not even know what a topic ban was. This is probably a Gamergate dead-ender yanking our chains. DanielRigal (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd suggest a checkuser but what's the point? They are going to get blocked anyway. DanielRigal (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what a topic ban is because I’ve lurked on pages like AN/I before. I’ve been browsing back-end Misplaced Pages pages for years. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make you guys believe me? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That ship has sailed. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make you guys believe me? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and blocked them. It's clear we're being trolled. They're not only offensively characterising men, they're offensively characterising women and people with mental illnesses. Thay also can't keep their own lies and beliefs straight. We're done here. Canterbury Tail talk 20:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Indefinite block
For disruptive editing and failure to get the point. I propose that TTYDDoopliss be indefintely blocked. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support Per nom. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. Even if they are what they claim to be there is nothing for them here. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. In addition, WP:NOTTHERAPY and WP:BATTLEGROUND. - The literary leader of the age ✉ 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support For the reasons and multitudinous diffs cited above I believe this whole dog and pony show is a troll. WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per above. I don't mean to be rude, but Wikipedians are a diverse bunch, and some of us are bound to be male. If you can't work collaboratively, you can't work at all. EF 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support because as I said before, whether this user has legitimate intentions behind these edits or is just WP:TROLLING, their disruptive editing and refusal to acknowledge their actions shows me that they are WP:NOTHERE. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nom Tarlby 19:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support Per Nom. The way she characterizes certain mental illnesses is untrue and frankly beyond offensive. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - I believe we're being trolled. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nomination - I had initial sympathy but it's just trolling. qcne (talk) 20:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Good block by CT. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support: TTYDDoopliss asked, several times over, what she could do to avoid a general block. Over and over again, she refused to respond in the one way that would have helped her: by saying that she'd clean up her act and stop dumping her own issues onto this site. Even if we weren't being trolled, any time an IDHT person gets cbanned, an angel gets its wings. Ravenswing 21:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Toa_Nidhiki05: WP:OWN and WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour.
Toa Nidhiki05 has been guarding the hell out of the Republican Party (United States). They instantly revert any change against the status quo that they don't like, citing a need for consensus, then don't actually engage with discussions around those edits except to call for moratoriums on even talking about them while spewing bad faith assumptions, or trying to wikilawyer away disagreements. I'm not a long term editor at Republican Party (United States) and, frankly, don't want to be, but in the limited number of days I've been editing on this it's clearly an issue.
(The main thing I'm trying to draw attention to in those diffs is the declaration that an edit "will not be made'. Please see below before taking claims of local consensus at face value)
Most recently he decided to just blanket slander multiple editors who disagree with him while again calling for a moratorium on changes he doesn't like. diff
More specifically this line:
Rather than persuade editors, it seems editors are attempting to force these changes through.
(right below an entire thread that was made before a controversial change specifically to discuss said change)
I feel this last one is the most important, because it highlights a pattern of what's been going on here: Toa telling editors a local consensus has been reached, and that they're free to read back, and then citing their own requests obliquely as if they're others ("or called for a moratorium on changes
") and, most importantly, creating an in-group of who is allowed to weigh in on article content (Only one active discussion-engaged user
). Other editors, like @Cortador, have been calling them out for this as well.
Note, actually doing what Toa asks and looking back through old talk page discussions on this largely results in finding Toa telling people the same thing then, too.
There's a content dispute under-riding most of this, which frankly is probably best adjudicated at this point by literally anyone other than Toa or myself. The meat of this ANI is wholly independent of the content dispute, except insofar as Toa's apparently not been engaging in the most NPOV way with editors when it comes to sourcing requirements. I want to point out that despite Toa's reality-bending insistence I've been pretty open to admitting a different proposal for a change from others was better than my own idea. In an attempt to placate his revert-happy self on what I was sure would be controversial (removing 'conservative' from the dominant ideology of the party) I started by making a discussion thread highlighting that the sources that were being used didn't make that claim, including direct quotes from the papers. Except for admonishing editors for wanting change, he's mostly elected to just straight up ignore any substantive discussion over the exact thing he's reverting. This is clearly OWN and POV editing, and it looks like previous attempts to caution him for edit warring were met with 'Are you fucking kidding me.'. I'd honestly like to bow out of editing that page entirely for a while for so many reasons, but I don't want to leave it in a state where one editor has declared an article theirs.
Addendum: this TBAN for the same behaviour is being discussed, but the link is buried in the discussion.Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
The page-in-question should be stable & at status quo. Best to work out content disputes on the page-in-questions' talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 15:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think that the content dispute should be decided here. To be clear, 99% of the content dispute is moving one sentence earlier in the article and removing a source that failed verification. We're not talking about seeing how fast we can invoke Godwin's Law in a page about the GOP (though admittedly some editors are). I genuinely don't think the content in question actually substantial at all, which is why one editor increasingly spiralling into mudslinging over it while refusing to discuss changes beyond categorical rejection or highly mobile goalposts for inclusion is a problem. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am out of town, and don't have time to reply fully to all of this. But the general dispute ongoing at the page is twofold: Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right", and they want "conservatism" to be removed as a majority faction. There doesn't appear to be support for either of these things (an ongoing RfC on the "far-right" designation is trending a pretty strong consensus in opposition, and removing conservatism appears to be equally unlikely to reach consensus). This is a content dispute involving, at this point, probably at least a dozen editors, and should be resolved on the page.
- What Warrenmck does not seem to understand is that changing political positions on pages is something that comes up all the time. None of the arguments presented have been new, and a local consensus has been developed with the collaboration of many editors. This took a lot of hard work and compromise to reach.
- For editors like myself - who worked on the present consensus versions - this is not a fresh, new discussion. It's more or less an endless string of discussions that have been ongoing for years. This is why several other editors - not just myself (and I'm not even the one who came up with the idea - that was Czello. I was actually the third to support one) have supported a moratorium on said discussions. There is nothing wrong with discussing a moratorium on repetitive topics that repeatedly emerge on talk pages.
- I will also note that, I have not, in fact, blindly opposed any changes to the article. I did not object when “right-wing populism” was added as a majority faction; I didn’t even participate in the discussion, iirc, because it was such an obvious changed. And in this discussion I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes. It goes without saying that the article is not mine, I have never claimed it is mine, and I have no interest in subverting or going against whatever consensus is reached through talk page discussions, rather than brute force. Toa Nidhiki05 15:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, what I was calling for was including "far right" as a minor faction, per the an absolute ocean of reliable sources. Even you explicitly stated in the RfC it's a minor ideology. You've accused me of wanting to make the page about the republicans being far right multiple times now, and the only time you've responded to me saying that 's not what I'm doing here was to say that having it on the page at all slanders the party as that
Except the RfC isn’t about labelling the party far right, it’s about naming it as a minor ideology, which you here acknowledge?
- and you responded
Which is labeling the party as it.
- Which isn't how NPOV editing works.
- Beyond that I simply don't believe that Toa is accurately representing the discussions that are there now or the historical discussions around local consensus.
I will also note that, I have not, in fact, opposed any changes. In fact, I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes
- Please, any admin reading this exact quoted line, immediately go look at Toa's engagement on this exact point here. Toa added a source paper, I read the source paper, removed it because it simply didn't make the claim it was being used to make, and instantly started a discussion thread asking for sources and explicitly explaining my removal. I did not make the change I knew would be controversial, that was a different editor later. I also quoted the specific line in the paper which discussed why it wasn't an approprioate source for the claim it was being used for in my removal (diff) Which Toa almost completely ignored. This is simply not an accurate recounting of events.
- This is why I think this is an ANI issue. Toa routinely misrepresents or overstates consensus and historical discussions, while running off editors who don't agree, then claiming that only the long term editors should have a meaningful say. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please find a time where I said you “want to make the page about the Republicans being far right”. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that. I have said you clearly have strong views about the subject, though.
- What you are referencing was a typo. Notice that it’s not even a complete sentence? Toa Nidhiki05 16:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Literally in this ANI:
Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right"
- That is not the same thing as defining far-right as a minor ideology of the party. Also from the talk page:
Its exclusion is not odd, as academic sources do not widely or generally or even often refer to the party as far-right, which is typically associated with literal fascism or Nazism. Believe it or not, this has been discussed dozens of times - including several in the last few months - and editors have reached a consensus that academic sources broadly refer to the party as center-right or right-wing.
Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- You are making a distinction without a difference. Toa Nidhiki05 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Involved: These are content disputes and should be dealt with at that level. Springee (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Toa_Nidhiki05 appears to have been exceedingly cordial and professional in the differences you provided above. I see no wrongdoing on their part. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I cannot disagree, except I think that speaking authoritatively about how a change will not be done regardless of sources provided simply breaks WP:OWN:
An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.
- The other problem is that the consensus they're pointing to doesn't seem to substantially exist. There's an abundance of "go see the old discussions" which themselves say "go see the old discussions" and so on. It's artificial, and it's being used to prevent edits that users don't like, as opposed to edits they can substantively object to. Seriously, just look at his presentation of these previous discussions here and go back in the archives. While I'm sure there were discussions at some (possibly many) points, there's a hell of a lot of reliable sources being objected to there on a house of cards.
- Additionally, I think that's masking the fact that they're simply refusing to engage editors while reverting the article to the status quo. They're basically holding the article hostage by pointing people to an ongoing discussion they're not engaging in (diff, or on the talk pages with "see previous discussion" as a threadkiller). So the choice editors are left with is to edit war over an inclusion, or give up. The issue isn't that there's a content dispute here, it's that someone has WP:WIKILAWYERed their way into objecting to a specific edit on an ongoing basis, always maintaining a layer of "content dispute". As Cortador said,
"Do you have a content-based case to make here or do you just declare editor's contributions to be "low quality" if you disagree with them?"
Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place after I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer WP:CPUSH problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an WP:OWN mentality. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Springee appears to be actively involved in this, and there's comments on their guarding against "far right" in the article going back at least two years of the same argumentation pattern and misrepresenting sourcing requirements and consensus. diff diff diff and diff. I agree this seems more like a CPUSH. For example, this was directed at Springee from the last diff:
The same failed arguments have been made in several similar discussions of late
- Basically, the patten we're seeing at Republican Party (United States) appears to be ongoing with several of the key users objecting to changes on identical grounds year after year without ever really explaining why these aren't open for discussion in light of sourcing standards. @The Four Deuces appears to be engaging in an identical pattern in many of the same articles. TFD, Toa, and Springee show up all over[REDACTED] making the same tortured arguments around academic sourcing and consensus when someone mentions "far-right" in an article. Every single time it's a complete slamming of the door of the possibility that RS could ever be met for the inclusion of information they deem controversial. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 13:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. Springee (talk) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, being vague wasn't my intention. I think you're engaging in the same CPUSH behaviour as Toa, just maintaining civility much better. It's possible to find years worth of identical argumentation from you on this across many articles, always with the same anything-other-than-excluding-content-is-unacceptable, and above you're continuing the relatively nonsensical arguments from Toa with Simonm223 in asking for unique sourcing standards for a claim you really don't like. You pick this fight very consistently on Misplaced Pages, usually with the same arguments.
- If I'm way out of line here I'm fine accepting a boomerang, but I see several editors going way off the deep end in trying to prevent a very specific change to articles on Misplaced Pages that seems to be coming from a place of stonewalling diff diff Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hope my arguments have been consistent because I try to pay strict adherence to content policy and guidelines. TFD (talk) 17:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. Springee (talk) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place after I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer WP:CPUSH problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an WP:OWN mentality. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Accusing other editors of making "low quality" edits instead of making an argument isn't helpful or professional, and neither is demanding a unique standard for edits one is opposed to. Cortador (talk) 17:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article. This discussion should be closed. Nemov (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Respectfully WP:CPUSH and WP:SEALION are behavioural problems. Simonm223 (talk) 20:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a comment, Toa’s response to multiple users adding failed verification tag was to go tag all the sources making a political claim they don’t like as failing verification en masse (diff).
- while these all on their own may be legitimate tags (though other editors have been removing some tags as apparently they did pass verification) I think taking this in the context of them actually refusing to discuss the failed verification tag that lead to this spree at all makes this pretty WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour to me. If Toa wants to discuss bad edits, that’s good and fine. But they can’t have a policy of using bad edits from other people to deflect from any discussion around edits they themselves feel are valid. Apparently he doesn't have enough time to fully engage with this ANI or any of the discussions around his own edits, but does have enough time to read dozens of articles and point by point articulate his issue with each over at the talk page for Republican Party (United States). Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: Toa was TBANed for this exact behaviour in 2022. The reason given at the time was
Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it.
- This is the same pattern of behaviour he's accused of here, for the same thing, and that resulted in an indefinite TBAN. Springee and TFD are again involved there, as well. This should make it pretty clear that, civility aside, this is a problem. A long, ongoing one. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to WP:AE more than WP:AN/I. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Honestly I agree having seen more of this being a systematic issue since making this ANI. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps the issue is that good faith editor don't agree. A failure to get consensus to add a controversial claim is hardly proof of CPUSH. Additionally as the number of accused editors goes up it looks more like a true content dispute vs a single editor problem. I will also note that Toa has done quite a bit to review some of the references used to support the disputed changes and makes a good case that they don't support the claims within the edits being pushed into the article. Springee (talk) 14:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. Simonm223 (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy.
- And very clearly retaliatory. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings. Per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". If the source does not back up the cited claim, it shouldn't be used. This is... pretty ordinary stuff, actually.
- You'll notice I did not remove the broader claims, or change the in-article text. All I have done is trim sources that do not back up the claim given, which is something Misplaced Pages citations are required to do. If you reaction to a source review that results in no changes to prose is to file a report rather than discuss, challenge, or revert, you might have a hard time being successful with that. Toa Nidhiki05 15:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings
- Would you please provide the diff where you substantively responded to a thread made directly about a source you added not passing verification, which you were pinged in and did actually participate without addressing the substance of? Because that would go a long way towards convincing me this isn't a smokescreen of policy to mask more sealioning in a thin veneer of civility and plausible deniability. How about addressing any of the comments providing the exact types of sources you were asked for? When I did provide a reason and eventually reverted your addition, you just reverted with "nah it didn't fail verification" ignoring both the edit summary prior and the entire talk page discussion about the entire situation. As I said there, neither I nor any other editor personally needs to run improvements on the article through you, personally. If you object without engaging or explaining, it's perfectly reasonable for editors to simply ignore your perspectives. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. Toa Nidhiki05 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No. The content dispute isn't the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I don't agree with Springee about some of their interpretations of appropriate content but I don't think their comportment is problematic except in as far as it gives cover to yours. Rather it's two things: how you insist sources should be interpreted and how you engage with other editors that has become disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 15:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The diff I asked for had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with you attempting to paint other editors as sidestepping a process you yourself have refused to engage in as a matter of policy, apparently going back far enough for you to have already received an indef TBAN for the exact same behaviour. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. Toa Nidhiki05 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a perfect example, in this diff they claim that the New York Times piece does not support referring to the Republican party as right-wing populist.
This is because it says that the party isn't just a touch more populist. It then compares the Republican party under Trump to the racist populist George Wallace and the fascist propagandist Father Coughlin. This, to me, is more than sufficient to support "right-wing populism" but, because the article uses simile, Toa Nidhiki05 calls it a "Gish Gallop".Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok here's the correct quote now:
The overarching pattern is clear. In election after election, Democrats underperformed among traditional Democratic constituencies during the Trump era. Sometimes, it was merely a failure to capitalize on his unpopularity. Other times, it was a staggering decline in support. Together, it has shattered Democratic dreams of building a new majority with the rise of a new generation of young and nonwhite voters.
This overarching pattern requires an overarching explanation: Mr. Trump’s populist conservatism corroded the foundations of the Democratic Party’s appeal. It tapped into many of the issues and themes that once made these voters Democrats.
While the damage was mostly concealed by Mr. Trump’s unpopularity, the backlash to his norm-shattering presidency drew the Democratic Party even further from its traditional roots. The extent of that damage is now clear. - Now this article does compare the Democratic party as a whole to Trump on a purely linguistic level. However context matters here. The first line of the article is
It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it.
The NYT has as table-stakes that the Republicans were transformed by Trump. In this context I think it's a reasonable argument that "Trump" here is a stand-in for the party of Trump. Simonm223 (talk) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Also, the New York Times introduces the article by saying, "Nate Cohn, The Times’s chief political analyst, makes sense of the latest political data." Editorial and opinion commentary says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Therefore this is not an acceptable source.
- It disruptive that so many unreliable sources have been presented in the discussion pages. It wastes edtiors' time as they discuss sources that cannot be used.
- My suggestion is that going forward, unreliable sources that are presented should be struck out and editors who persist in presenting them should face sanctions. That will allow editors to focus on what reliable sources say. TFD (talk) 16:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what WP:RSEDITORIAL says
When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.
Simonm223 (talk) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- In this case the author is a journalist with a BA in politics IOW he has the same background one would expect for the writer of an analysis in a newspaper. Furthermore, when policy says that this type of source is "rarely reliable," the onus is on the person presenting it to explain why it should be deemed reliable. TFD (talk) 17:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what WP:RSEDITORIAL says
- Ok here's the correct quote now:
- Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. Simonm223 (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to WP:AE more than WP:AN/I. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page. Maybe it would be best if editors heavily involved there, would avoid each other & allow newcomers room to give their input. Might lower the heat. GoodDay (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page.
- It isn't, for what it's worth. It's about a consistent pattern of behaviours going back years that came out, mostly, in the thread after the RfC, though partially there as well. Beyond that, good call. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Is this the type of report that would be better addressed at WP:AE? ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Frankly, probably? I misjudged how long this had been going on and the scale of it. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be better suited to AE except that it's here now and AE tends not to like having an issue open at two venues. Simonm223 (talk) 17:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't see why you consider this a behavioral issue rather than a content dispute. I follow a lot of articles that attract editors with fringe views: fascism is left-wing, cultural marxism and Jewish bolshevism are not just conspiracy theories, aspartame is dangerous, climate science is unsettled, etc. Some editors explain why these views are wrong, while others point to previous discussions.
- If anyone should be banned, it isn't editors who insist that articles reflect reliable sources, but editors who try to inject fringe theories unsupported by reliable sources.
- On your user page, you mention that you have written peer-reviewed articles in geophysics and vulcanology. Certainly you would not rely on an analysis by a journalist as reliable in those papers. For example, you would not use it for explaining why a particular volcano erupted. TFD (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. Cortador (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- See Some types of sources: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources."
- Can you explain why in determining how to desribe a political group you prefer an article by a journalist rather than a political scientist writing in a peer-reviewed publication? Do you think it is prudent to substitute a consensus academic opinion with that of a journalist?
- If I want to know how to categorize a poltical group or know why volcanoes erupt, my go to source isnt't a newspaper. Instead, I would look for an article by an expert. TFD (talk) 15:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. Cortador (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
If I am following this properly, via the thread on the linked talk page:
- The OP made a thread on Talk:Republican Party (United States) saying that we should change the article to say that it was "anti-intellectual" and "far-right".
- Toa_Nidhiki05 said that this was a bad idea, and some stuff about previous consensus against doing this.
- ???
- AN/I thread
Is there anything I'm missing here? jp×g🗯️ 21:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sealioning, a previous TBAN for identical behaviour, and multiple editors weighing in saying this is a CPUSH issue? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've said I'm guilty of sealioning three times in this thread, but as far as I can tell you haven't actually defined what you think that means, or what I've done. It's a pretty specific set of behavior - can you explain what I've done that qualifies as sealioning?
- But to answer JPxG: yeah, that's essentially it. Like I said above, it doesn't look like either of Warrenmck's proposed changes will make it into the article, and I'm surprised this content dispute hasn't been closed yet. Toa Nidhiki05 23:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You have refused to engage editors in the exact process you demand they engage in, you put forward sourcing standards which, when met, you completely dodge. On one hand you ask editors to discuss and respect consensus, on the other you wield prior consensus as a cudgel to prevent a change you don’t like and have made it abundantly clear that the sourcing standards you demand are not actually sourcing standards you’ll accept, rather, to quote an admin in your last TBAN:
There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any basis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines
. You’re engaging in vindictive editing patterns, which evidence has also been provided for. You have refused to articulate the actual substance of prior consensus other than pointing at it and saying “consensus, consensus, consensus” and when the exact arguments that lead to said consensus (apparently, you’ve still never linked a prior discussion) are being addressed and met you ignore the editor, as multiple people here have pointed out.
- You have refused to engage editors in the exact process you demand they engage in, you put forward sourcing standards which, when met, you completely dodge. On one hand you ask editors to discuss and respect consensus, on the other you wield prior consensus as a cudgel to prevent a change you don’t like and have made it abundantly clear that the sourcing standards you demand are not actually sourcing standards you’ll accept, rather, to quote an admin in your last TBAN:
- You’ve been doing this for years and were TBANed for it in 2022. Your attempt at denying it here rings hollow when multiple editors have been very explicit and provided diffs for sealioning behaviour. Im frankly a bit surprised at @JPxG’s rapid read of the situation considering the evidence of a TBAN for the exact behaviour raised here and multiple editors chiming in saying they see a WP:CPUSH. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 06:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm going to repeat this link which is referred to above but kind of hidden, here is the discussion that lead to the 2022 topic ban: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive312#Toa Nidhiki05, just in case anyone wants to review it. Liz 06:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It’s also worth pointing out that their reply to @JPxG engages in some of the direct behaviour they’re being called out for here: seemingly reasonably asking for a discussion while ignoring that what they’re asking for was already provided without them participating
You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings
- In a vacuum, this looks like a completely reasonable editor engaged in a very civil discussion around edits. In practice this was already done before this comment, and Toa refused to engage in the discussion except one about the retaliatory edits, i.e. only edits they personally felt failed verification were up for discussion, not those they felt didn’t. Here they tell me I’m free to undo the source review, but apparently only on the sources they tagged as unreliable because the ones I tagged, evidenced, and started a discussion thread about were unilaterally removed, twice, with a simple claim that it didn’t fail verification diff diff with no attempt at engaging in the discussion thread about this exact thing except to tell me I’m “very passionate about this” and I shouuld stop editing diff diff.
- A content dispute isn’t possible to properly adjudicate if one party is refusing to engage, then pointing to prior consensus. Toa has created a situation where they and their ephemeral prior consensus have right of review on an article. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I expected, @Warrenmck: - your claims are simply baseless. Consider this my final response to them.
- First off, let's talk about my topic ban. No, I did not get topic banned for sealioning. It was for disruptive behavior at the Stacey Abrams page - frankly, it was embarrassing, and the sanction was warranted. The fact you're having to resort to a years-old incident instead of right now, though, is pretty telling in terms of the merit of this report.
- Your claims of sealioning ring hollow because you still cannot define what POV I am pushing - I'm still not even convinced you know what sealioning is. Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors. See the problem here? I've behaved civilly, while your general response to... any sort of disagreement is make frivolous claims against me. If anyone's behavior should be on watch here, it is yours, because it's been utterly ridiculous.
- You seem extremely caught up on what I told you during your initial proposal here - how I told you your edit would not be accepted, and that while this is a topic you're clearly passionate about, it might be best for you to step away from it if you're unable to distance your personal feelings. I think everything I said is correct. Your proposal was bad. It didn't add any new information to the table, it isn't backed up by high-quality academic sources, and effectively all it's done is waste time. Like I said: your proposal may have been made in good faith, but it is not going to be accepted. And I was right! The RfC you started (after an initial discussion where nobody agreed with you, and an earlier attempt you made at an RfC that was malformed) has opposes ahead of supports by over a 2:1 margin. Your proposal to remove conservatism has been received as equally poorly.
- Similarly, your response to my source review wasn't to contest changes on the talk page or revert them - but instead, to accuse me here of "retaliation"; as far as I can tell, the only one you directly commented on at the talk page is to agree with me.
- Instead of looking inward and reconsidering your contributions, you instead started a frivolous, retaliatory AN/I board discussion that pretty much every uninvolved editor has reacted with bewilderment over.
- I am going to be blunt here: you are wasting my time, you are wasting your time, and you're wasting everyone's time here. Frankly, I think you should strongly consider limiting or ending your involvement in AP2 if your response to a basic content dispute and not getting your way is to post frivolous reports to AN/I. Toa Nidhiki05 13:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- As per link Liz provided above, your topic ban wasn't for disruptive behaviour on the Stacey Abrams page. That page isn't mentioned in the AIN discussion closure comments. The Republican Party article is, and the outcome was a a ban from that page and a topic ban, with the reasons cited being, among others, retaliatory posting, evidence of personal attacks, bludgeoning, and edit-warring. Cortador (talk) 14:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- TN, you have been very selective in what you see at article talk. In one instance you say, regarding the Republican Party's center-right designation, that there should be a moratorium on such discussions because "nothing new" has been presented. That is despite the fact that there are several new peer reviewed sources that contradict center-right and support far-right that have been presented and ignored by you. But the one time I agreed with you regarding a low-quality source you were very fast to point out my agreement in discussion. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that is leading to the complaints of sealioning. Regarding your POV it is that you want to retain the status quo at the page. You don't want to see revision, especially, to any high-level indicators of overall ideology such as infoboxes. That's fine we all have POVs. Mine is that the page is non-neutral calling the Republicans a center-right party. The problem comes when you ignore all evidence that contradicts your POV over the objection of multiple other editors and insist that no sources have been provided despite an abundance of high-quality sources being provided. Simonm223 (talk) 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- A professional paid editor frankly should have a much more complete understanding of WP:RS, WP:CONSENSUS, and WP:POV. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- TN, you have been very selective in what you see at article talk. In one instance you say, regarding the Republican Party's center-right designation, that there should be a moratorium on such discussions because "nothing new" has been presented. That is despite the fact that there are several new peer reviewed sources that contradict center-right and support far-right that have been presented and ignored by you. But the one time I agreed with you regarding a low-quality source you were very fast to point out my agreement in discussion. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that is leading to the complaints of sealioning. Regarding your POV it is that you want to retain the status quo at the page. You don't want to see revision, especially, to any high-level indicators of overall ideology such as infoboxes. That's fine we all have POVs. Mine is that the page is non-neutral calling the Republicans a center-right party. The problem comes when you ignore all evidence that contradicts your POV over the objection of multiple other editors and insist that no sources have been provided despite an abundance of high-quality sources being provided. Simonm223 (talk) 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nothing you said there replies to the post you responded to. This feels like a gish gallop. One with a reasonable number of falsehoods, at that. For example:
Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors.
- Why not, for the folks at ANI reading along, explain the context in which I said I was going to unilaterally add far-right in? Hmm? Here's a diff.
- 1. You failed to actually demonstrate there was a consensus, as one didn't exist in the place you directed me to.
- 2. Neither you nor Springee, who you've been tag-teaming with on this exact edit for years, once articulated why it "wasn't going to be included" other than to state tautologically that it was not
- 3. In the absence of any substantive objection, WP:RS material should be added in.
- WP:ONUS doesn't assume a stonewalled refusal to engage, and if the only substance to the objection I'm getting is a vague statement about an unreferenced consensus and WP:IDONTLIKEIT then yeah, I'm going to edit it in. I'm very used to editing in contentious article spaces and this isn't the first time I've seen this approach used to keep out changes. You can point to your civility until the cows come home but if it's masking POV editing that needs to be addressed. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- As per link Liz provided above, your topic ban wasn't for disruptive behaviour on the Stacey Abrams page. That page isn't mentioned in the AIN discussion closure comments. The Republican Party article is, and the outcome was a a ban from that page and a topic ban, with the reasons cited being, among others, retaliatory posting, evidence of personal attacks, bludgeoning, and edit-warring. Cortador (talk) 14:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you're going to accuse @Springee: of something, you could at least do them the decency of tagging them. That being said - the idea I've been tag-teaming with them for years on this is silly, because the page didn't have a political position listed until late last year (something you'd know if you... read the talk page archives, like you claim you have), so I'm not exactly sure what you think has been going on here.
- Moreover: there is, in fact, a consensus. I'm fairly confident I've pointed it out to you, but it was developed in the talk page in archives 32-34; there's not a single thread to pinpoint because it took place over numerous threads. Given what you've said above, however, I don't think you actually did ever read those discussions. The fact you're simply unable to accept that a local consensus exists (or, evidently, the fact that editors do not agree with your proposed changes by a 2:1 margin) is on you.
- With that, I'm done. If you want to waste your time litigating a content dispute at AN/I, go ahead. I'm no longer engaging with this. Toa Nidhiki05 15:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Others should note that this is the exact same pattern of behaviour that Warrenmck and I both highlighted previously: selectively responding to arguments that they can refute while ignoring those they cannot, pointing to a vaguely defined local consensus without pointing to a specific decision, and a fair bit of diversion with the whole complaint of not tagging @Springee, who is already quite thoroughly engaged in this thread. Simonm223 (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you presenting arguments that can be refuted? TFD (talk) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think I am, being honest, especially since you and I agree on source quality and I've taken great care to base my arguments on a large number of reliable peer reviewed academic sources rather than news media. But there are multiple editors involved in this discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 15:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm generally following this discussion. I think it would be helpful if we all try to assume good faith. It's clear there is a disagreement here. If editors feel they have successfully made a case against the status quo and feel the objectors are wrong I would suggest starting a RfC to confirm the answer. That's the best process for establishing that a consensus exists. I would also note that, right or wrong, rather than pushing edits into the article when consensus etc isn't clear, those wanting change should start a RfC so we can at least finish with a declared consensus on the question. We all ready have a "far-right" RfC open so half of this fight should be addressed when that one closes. Springee (talk) 15:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Why are you presenting arguments that can be refuted? TFD (talk) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Others should note that this is the exact same pattern of behaviour that Warrenmck and I both highlighted previously: selectively responding to arguments that they can refute while ignoring those they cannot, pointing to a vaguely defined local consensus without pointing to a specific decision, and a fair bit of diversion with the whole complaint of not tagging @Springee, who is already quite thoroughly engaged in this thread. Simonm223 (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm going to repeat this link which is referred to above but kind of hidden, here is the discussion that lead to the 2022 topic ban: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive312#Toa Nidhiki05, just in case anyone wants to review it. Liz 06:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- You’ve been doing this for years and were TBANed for it in 2022. Your attempt at denying it here rings hollow when multiple editors have been very explicit and provided diffs for sealioning behaviour. Im frankly a bit surprised at @JPxG’s rapid read of the situation considering the evidence of a TBAN for the exact behaviour raised here and multiple editors chiming in saying they see a WP:CPUSH. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 06:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Warrenmck, you've replied to this discussion 20 times you started it. I advise you to reign it in a bit, as this has been treading towards WP:BLUDGEONING. You don't need to reply to every single comment in this discussion. Just mentioning this because the constant replies actually dissuaded me from reading through it all. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I can back away Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 18:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated WP:GS/AA violations
On 26 October 2024, I informed User:Scherbatsky12 about the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction and explained what it meant.
Scherbatsky12 still created several articles or made expansions in areas covered by WP:GS/AA such as the following: Ibrahim Rahimov, Hokuma Aliyeva, Khalil Rza Uluturk, and made poorly sourced POV additions such as:
Not only Scherbatsky12 was aware about, and even deleted the GS/AA notice , they still made several articles in its violation regardless and made GS/AA breaching additions that also include POV poorly sourced edits. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Even after this report, Scherbatsky12 still continues violating the extended confirmed restriction . KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given them a final warning on the matter. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger thank you, but aren't we over a warning here? I've already left a notice on their talk back in October and explained what it meant. They still violated the restriction numerous times and even violated again just hours ago after this report. The WP:AA3 topic area has stricter rules enforcement than most other topics, and the behavior of Scherbatsky12 isn't encouraging. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger after violating the restriction while this report is ongoing , and your final warning, they've done it again in the same article: "On the day of the performance, there was a large audience, most of whom were Armenians". It's evident the user isn't competent enough to follow rules in contentious topics such as the AA3. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given them a final warning on the matter. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I apologize for the misunderstanding. What I do not understand is whether the occupation of Kalbajar by Armenian armed forces (1993) is considered controversial or problematic (). I have merely noted that Hokuma Aliyeva relocated due to the occupation of Kalbajar (). The rest resulted from careless translation and will not be repeated again.
- This isn't about if Scherbatsky12 thinks their one edit is right or wrong: the point is they shouldn't have been editing info covered by the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction at all until reaching extended confirmed rank. The fact they still don't understand this is a clear indication of incompetence in a highly contentious topic area at that. Not only this, they continued violating the restriction while being reported here. And additionally, they're now attributing "the rest" of their POV edits to "careless translation", which is bizarre: how one doesn't even check what articles/edits they're making before publishing "translations" especially in a topic area that they were alerted is contentious and while violating a restriction they were aware about too? After their comment here, it's not reassuring that this wouldn't happen again and is further clear to me that Scherbatsky12 isn't competent enough to edit in a contentious topic area such as the AA3. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 15:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Caribbean Hindustani
This is probably not the appropriate page, but I couldn't find a better one. If an admin may have a look at the version history of the Caribbean Hindustani article - there's two quite new editors battling out a dispute since December. Maybe some administrative guidance would help them. Thanks and kind regards, Grueslayer 18:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per the notice at the top of this page, you were supposed to alert both editors of this thread. I've done so for you. Tarlby 18:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This: , may or may not be helpful. I'd also add that I can't force someone to discuss something on the talkpage: Hermes Express (talk) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That would make sense if you'd tried discussing on the talk page, but you didn't head there until Tarbly asked you to. You can't force someone to discuss something but you can try discussing which you haven't done until now. Expecting the other party to start a discussion is rarely good editor behaviour especially when you are edit warring. Instead it's like a lame kids 'they started it' defence. The only way you can prove an editor refuses to discuss on the talk page is by trying otherwise you can both be counted as refusing to discuss. To be clear except the first sentence, this applies to both of you. Nil Einne (talk) 00:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have added several sources and journel and official government and NGO sites that work on it to prove what I am writing. But that user dont have source to prove it and its just his opinion which he had written.
- He also wrote his opinion on Hindustani page which got removed by the admin as it was false information but the same thing when I added on caribbean Hindustani page, he reverted my changes. If writing opinion as a fact and that too without any source and also the source provided dont match with the information.
- I had talk with the user and explained several times in the edit and on talk page as well. I have explained everything which I added with source unlike him. Adrikshit (talk) 04:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Potential block evasion by IP 211.184.93.253 (old IP 58.235.154.8)
Blocks guaranteed. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The IP 58.235.154.8 was banned on December 29, 2024 (6 month block duration) for disruptive editing. To be specific, they would write in a delay of a Starship launch by exactly one month, without any citations.
They had been banned before (two month ban) for the same behaviour.
A few examples that I sourced in my report of 58.235.154.8:
IP 211.184.93.253 is now repeating this pattern, in what appears to be block-evasion.
Out of the five edits made by this IP:
Made before 58.235.154.8 ban, changed Flight 8 launch date from Early 2025 to February 2025. Doesn't add a source.
Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches from February 2025 to March 2025. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches, again from February to March. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.
This is either a similarly disruptive editor, or more likely, a ban evader continuing their vandalism. Either way, they are not here to improve Misplaced Pages. Redacted II (talk) 19:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Additionally, geolocate places both IP addresses in the same region, which makes it quite likely that they are evading a ban.
- Geolocate 1
- Geolocate 2 Redacted II (talk) 19:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. Liz 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. Redacted II (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:RPP Rusalkii (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! Redacted II (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) (added after discussion close)
- WP:RPP Rusalkii (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. Redacted II (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. Liz 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Danny5784
Danny5784 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) does not seem to have the maturity and judgement to be a productive editor. Despite a litany of talk page warnings and efforts by multiple editors to explain things to them, they are continuing to create unneeded pages. Of the 18 articles they've created, 9 have been redirected (mostly at AfD), 2 deleted, and 4 currently have unanimous delete/redirect consensus at AfD. Three of their most recent creations are particularly noteworthy:
- After Draft:New Jersey Transit 6539-6549 was declined by Stuartyeates, and I warned them that such pages are not notable, Danny5784 created it anyway.
- Danny5784 created NJ Transit bus garages with poor sourcing, much of it from a user-generated wiki. After Djflem wrangled it into a useful list, Danny5784 created both New Jersey Transit bus garages and NJ Transit Bus Garage Fleet/Routes apparently as content forks.
Danny5784 also has issues with copyright: they uploaded a large number of now-deleted files on Commons and seem unwilling to actually obtain verifiable permission, then did the exact same thing here, plus using blatantly false non-free content criteria.
With 460 edits over 15 months, Danny5784 is past the point where these can just be dismissed as newbie mistakes. They are a rather young editor who is unwilling or unable to follow basic norms such as notability, reliable sourcing, and copyright. Until they demonstrate more maturity, I believe a prohibition from page creation (article, template, and file upload) is needed. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Incorrect and no. No prohibition is necessary. You would need to teach and show him how it is done.
- Don't even try to prohibit him. Over 15 months of editing, you still don't even accept it?! What is wrong with you? Your more stricter than high school so, knock it off and NO PROBITION! And also, he's trying his best to do it right. Toyota683 (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear Confirmed result.-- Ponyo 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - The Bushranger One ping only 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem, ever, with unarchiving, The Bushranger. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. Liz 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I just try to help run a clean ship. And no worries! As far as I can tell the template's working, but will leave this unhatted given that. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:26, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem, ever, with unarchiving, The Bushranger. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. Liz 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - The Bushranger One ping only 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear Confirmed result.-- Ponyo 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- As the editor who declined the article above at AfC, I'd encourage admins to shepherd young newbies towards AfC and similar venues. It's what we're hear for (if anything I should have given better comments in my decline). Stuartyeates (talk) 08:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Clerical note that this user is not the similarly named DannyS712. jp×g🗯️ 21:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
User LivinAWestLife vandalizing Republican Party article
LivinAWestLife made a large change to the Republican Party article which changed the ideology of the party from the consensus Center-right to fascist. They quickly then changed the text to "far-right" . Any seasoned editor should know such behavior is beyond reckless and clearly disruptive. Springee (talk) 00:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back. LivinAWestLife (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vandalism is vandalism and is not funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a very low tolerance for trolls, especially in contentious topics. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that there are jokes, and then there are "oh hell no" situations. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are several people who feel the current discussion of political ideology of the Republican party is non-neutral. Disruptive drive-by edits actually make correcting such problems harder rather than easier. So please stop. Simonm223 (talk) 12:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that there are jokes, and then there are "oh hell no" situations. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was over half an hour in which the edits in question were live before they were reverted by a third party so "minutes at most" doesn't seem very applicable. If you really have a primal urge to vandalize an article, there is a correct way to do so without disrupting the wiki - see WP:HTVC. Departure– (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Extremely unbecoming to do something like this during a major political transition. This causes thousands of people to further distrust Misplaced Pages. It could even be outright dangerous. Even more ridiculous to hide behind humor. I'm not anyone important but I want to convey to you directly how outrageous I find this to be. Garnet Moss (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Couldn't you have just used inspect element? Doombruddah (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're taking a very long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. Doombruddah (talk) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back» and there are no consequences? XavierItzm (talk) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- If there's no further disruption and they've recognized what they did was wrong and committed to not do it again then a trout is likely sufficient. Of course if there's further disruption that would be a different matter entirely. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They've gotten a level four vandalism warning and are now put at the end of their rope. In my opinion, everything is in order here. Per above, disruption either won't continue, and if it does, further sanctions will follow. Departure– (talk) 16:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per the idea that blocks etc should be preventative not punitive, I agree that no further action seems like the correct option. Certainly LivinAWestLife is/should be clearly aware that their actions were not acceptable and I agree that they slid to the end of the rope. However, absent additional actions like this we are probably done. Springee (talk) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back» and there are no consequences? XavierItzm (talk) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. Doombruddah (talk) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're taking a very long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vandalism is vandalism and is not funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a very low tolerance for trolls, especially in contentious topics. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Editor repeatedly reverting edits
Cambial_Yellowing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This editor is starting editwar again, just reverted my edit, and has done this before with these edits A and B, repeatedly.! I tried to communicate on talk page but editor just went away! For such behavior the editor has been blocked before
This editor last time also pushed me to violate WP:3RR , While i was trying to improve the SIF article by moving criticism out of the theology section to separate criticism section, as per WP:CRITS where it is clearly mentioned
"In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title, for example, if there is a large body of critical material, and if independent secondary sources comment, analyze or discuss the critical material."
Because, before this, i was reading similar article, Minjung theology and the criticism section make it easy to understand.
I don't know why the editor doesn't understand Theology and criticism are not the same thing, which is common sense, but I was punished for using my common sense before, and now this again! Sokoreq (talk) 02:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, Sokoreq,
- First WP:ANEW is the noticeboard to report edit-warring, secondly, you haven't provided any diffs of edit warring and, first and foremost, no one can "push" you to violate our guidelines on edit-warring, take responsibility for your own mistakes. Liz 02:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, ANI should be where you come when other methods of communication have failed. Have you started a discussion on the article talk page or posted to their user talk page about your differences? Give it a shot before coming to ANI. Liz 02:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry@Liz actually before this, i went on your talk page to discuss and waited for days, and about previous revertes i have provided edit warnings. Sokoreq (talk) 02:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's your action, not theirs. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are the one who started removing/reverting edits repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on talk page to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are doing again. Plese see SIF edit history. Sokoreq (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's good you have accepted that mistake, but you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen again, no matter what another editor "starts". WP:3RR is a bright line. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are the one who started removing/reverting edits repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on talk page to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are doing again. Plese see SIF edit history. Sokoreq (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's your action, not theirs. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, Sokoreq, that was my fault, I'm behind responding to talk page messages, I apologize for that. But I didn't mean that you should post a template on Cambial Yellowing's user talk page that was more suitable for a new editor (and they have been editing for over 5 years), I meant actually talking through a discussion. I can see that another editor already posted on their User talk page about the article talk page, you could have joined that discussion or posted on the article talk page. Again, my apologies about my lack of responsiveness. Liz 02:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They edit in group, while i started a discussion first but then first editor didn't explanation much and went for a week, again today I tried on talk page but didn't receive any reply, I apologize for any inconvenience but this is very new for me. Sokoreq (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I respect they are senior editors, but I don't understand what they are upto and there is some discussion on the associated talk page for months is hard to understand. The talk page is messy; it's difficult to understand who is who and what is what? Sokoreq (talk) 02:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Science_of_Identity_Foundation is related to this. Sokoreq's response to being reverted was to baselessly accuse an editor of COI and harassment . When someone else reverted them they too were accused of harassment . After the COIN discussion didn't go their way, they continued to double down on COI accusations: . This latest report is more of the same. Despite being directed there numerous times by several editors, they still have not posted on the article's associated talk page - ever. I suggest that a WP:BOOMERANG sanction is appropriate here. - MrOllie (talk) 03:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are we sure they understand? Moxy🍁 03:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @MrOllie Yeh, I went to the COI noticeboard a week ago. It's closed now, because I didn't have evidence to prove. and the editor was also repeatedly reverting without explanation and suddenly went for a week. I have discussed the matter with that editor on my talk page. What do you want to prove through this? Sokoreq (talk) 03:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sokoreq, that article talk page is quite an immense discussion on one specific aspect of the article that has nothing to do with your interests so I'd just start a new discussion there. I also see that you just removed a discussion on your user talk page with User:Hipal from your own talk page and asked them not to post on it any longer. You will not get very far on a collaborative editing project if you refust to actually communicate with editors you have disagreements with. Actual discussion, with opinions, arguments, diffs and sources with other editors is how consensus is formed on this project. But you can't seek to eliminate every editor you disagree with or you will not be editing here for a long time. It can be challenging but every editor on this project has to find a way to work with editors who have differences with and that is usually accomplished, not through coming to a noticeboard but by presenting a solid argument on an article talk page and convincing other editors that your position is stronger. But ANI doesn't exist to get rid of other editors who revert you. If edit-warring is an actual problem, which doesn't seem to be the case here, then post a formal case at WP:ANEW. Liz 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. Liz 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I read over Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Science of Identity Foundation discussion and I haven't said anything to you that you weren't already told at COIN. What is your resistance to having a discussion on the article talk page? That should be your first destination when you have a disagreement, not ANI. Now, I'm going to stop because I'm just repeating advice that you've already been given. Liz 04:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Liz, this is really helpful. I hope they will communicate.! Thank you for creating space on the discussion page. I will keep this in mind for next time. And for formal cases, I will post on WP:ANEW. Thanks again Sokoreq (talk) 04:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. Liz 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Usually, when an editor returns to their edit war after being blocked, without once contributing to the article talk page discussions, they are blocked.
I think a good case can be made for Sokoreq is WP:NOTHERE , those diffs () show an inability to work with others and take accountability for their own actions. The subsequent canvassing, here and here and the behavior that led to this discussion show that it's unlikely to end without further intervention. --Hipal (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know what you're up to, but from the beginning, I was just trying to understand your disagreements. But, you went away for days. I don’t have anything personal against you now, and I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above. I will discuss any future disagreements on the article's talk page. Thanks Sokoreq (talk) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above
That's not what you did, and that's disruptive. --Hipal (talk) 00:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- Hipal, can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? Liz 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- There doesn't appear to be any olive branch being offered. The comments from Sokoreq, here and elsewhere, have me wondering if they are using an AI or auto-translator to communicate with us. I see very little understand of what's being written, less still of actual policy, all while downplaying or ignoring, often misrepresenting, their own behavior. --Hipal (talk) 02:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hipal, can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? Liz 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Trolling at Talk:Denali
Done (for now). - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 2600:1700:9366:e040:506c:d71c:7e0b:3528 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
WP:RBI please. Jasper Deng (talk) 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:AIV? Tarlby 17:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No response there; strictly speaking it might not be the most obvious vandalism in any case.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have requested protection for the talk page. I'll see how it goes. I have suspicion of meatpuppetry/canvassing from 4chan. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Semi-protected now, thanks User:Isabelle Belato Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP blocked and page protected for a short period. I'm guessing this first month we will see a lot of these types of editors. Isabelle Belato 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato and Acroterion: Needs talk page access yanked too.--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Meatpuppetry/tag teaming at Conor Benn
Resolved. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
EWN report stalled, so bringing this here. User:GiggaHigga127 and I engaged in an edit war at Conor Benn, which began as a content dispute but is now more of conduct issue. Less than 12 hours after he was blocked (for good reason), User:Dennis Definition shows up as a brand new single-purpose account to make the exact same edit for the "win", whilst predictably denying any connection. How is this not gaming?
I'd be happy to hash out the original content dispute at WikiProject Boxing and see if anything needs tweaking at our style guide, but not when there's obvious bad faith tag teaming going on. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's an LTA trying to cause trouble. Blocked now.-- Ponyo 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've restored it to the pre-socking version and Daniel Case has semi-protected the article.-- Ponyo 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Appreciated. Discussion at the Project forthcoming. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've restored it to the pre-socking version and Daniel Case has semi-protected the article.-- Ponyo 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Potential Block Evasion by IP 47.67.231.5 (Original IP range 47.69.0.0, first sock IP 80.187.75.118)
An IP is behaving similary to an IP range blocked by last November. The orignal block was later extended due to block evasion.
The location of these IP addresses are all quite similar, which I have attached below.
Suspect Second blocked IP Redacted II (talk) 22:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- EDIT: The IP is now
bannedblocked, with the original IP'sbanblock extended by another three months. Redacted II (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- WP:BLOCKNOTBAN - The Bushranger One ping only 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for the correction on my wording. Redacted II (talk) 23:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BLOCKNOTBAN - The Bushranger One ping only 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Harassment and personal attacks
Riventree called another editor and myself a moron, said to track down the editor who approved the DYK, and called me an idiot. SL93 (talk) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indef'd. Completely unacceptable behavior. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but indef for a user who has, generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked once? Daniel Case (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It did. And 'indefinite' is not 'infinite'; once they acknowledge their error, the block can be lifted, but not before. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed. I would further posit that a user who has been around for fifteen years really ought to know not go on the attack like this. There are ways to discuss content you don't agree with, there was no need for the blown gasket here. I edit conflicted with the above I also was going to add that Indefinite does not mean infinite, they can request an unblock as soon as right now. Beeblebrox 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. Cullen328 (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this:
'twas a crime of passion (politics got the better of me)- I really would hate for Misplaced Pages to get drawn into the petty politics of the USA)
. Since when was a DYK about feminism about petty American politics? I don't usually deal with unblock requests so I'll leave this for another admin, but I don't think they entirely understand why their behaviour is considered problematic. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- It looks to me like they understand what they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the why (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - The Bushranger One ping only 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I tried to see if I could convince them to understand and apologize for it, and I'm confused about why a long-time editor would go off the rails about feminism or politics. It wasn't fruitful. I wish you admins good luck. SL93 (talk) 02:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per our own internal classification (e.g. WP:GGTF/WP:GENSEX) it is formally a "contentious topic", and the article feminism is in the {{political ideologies}} navbox. While it might initially seem confusing that a thing called "feminism" could be a political subject, it has been one for about the last century (e.g. suffrage is a central aspect of politics, and civil rights for women in the United States were often pursued through legislation and jurisprudence). Moreover, many issues that do not directly involve the apparatus of government are often referred to as "political" if they are the center of substantial cultural discourse or disagreement. jp×g🗯️ 11:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It looks to me like they understand what they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the why (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - The Bushranger One ping only 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have heard people use the phrase "track down" in colloquial speech for decades, and in the overwhelming majority of cases (when applied to a person) it means to get in contact with, or locate:
- "The machine in booth 7 is shorting out again, I'm going to see if I can track down the repairman."
- "Someone track down the QC inspector and tell her these parts are out of spec."
- "When we get into town, we should track down a food truck."
- I am not really sure why these sentences would, prima facie, constitute a violent threat. Perhaps if the speaker was loading a shotgun and wearing a blood-spattered "I HATE FOOD TRUCKS!" t-shirt -- but absent that, I would assume they just wanted a sandwich. In this case, I would assume the obvious straightforward meaning of the person's sentence -- that the person responsible should be admonished, or complained to, or sanctioned. jp×g🗯️ 11:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this:
- I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. Cullen328 (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but indef for a user who has, generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked once? Daniel Case (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- So okay, I looked up the hook. Apparently, it was this:
- From time to time we do have some DYK hooks that are controversial or edgy, so I was expecting something like that, but this is not that.
- I must confess that not only does this DYK hook not offend me, I am not even sure what part of it (the DYK hook) someone else might find offensive (the DYK hook). The best I can come up with is that bro was having a really bad day and decided to randomly flip out at the first thing that he found mildly politically annoying. This is really not great behavior, and probably it warrants some warning or admonishment or block. However, if someone has been editing for sixteen years with no problem, I feel like this is not a sign of utter incompatibility with a collaborative editing project, and I am inclined to grant the unblock request, as they have explained pretty succinctly what the problem is and I am fairly convinced they will not do it again. On this same page, a few sections up (Special:Permalink/1271035842#User:TTYDDoopliss_and_gender-related_edits), it seems like we have something of a recent precedent when someone is engaging in blatant personal attacks with regard to the topic of feminism: they are handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology, refuse to do so multiple times, and are only blocked when they go too far
and it is unrelatedly discovered that they are a sockpuppet. Moreover, we can easily find many other instances of people doing and saying far worse stuff than this, dozens of times, and then all their buddies show up to glaze them at the ANI thread and they get a strong admonishment. I do think it's bad to flip out and call people idiots, but I don't think they need to be forever removed from the project. jp×g🗯️ 10:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- As a compromise between zero and infinity, reduced to two weeks. jp×g🗯️ 11:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @JPxG He very clearly did not explain or show why what he did was wrong, nor did he give an apology (which was halfhearted ay best) until prompted three times. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- TTYDDoopliss was blocked indefinitely for trolling by Canterbury Tail before being found put as a sock by spicy. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Amended, thanks. jp×g🗯️ 15:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @JPxG: Did you discuss this with the original blocking admin beforehand? And I agree with voorts that they do not completely understand what they did was wrong. I don't think it's appropriate to change the blocking time without a consensus at this point. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, he did not, and I agree that this unblock should not have happened. This attempt to downplay "editor X should be tracked down" by comparing it to tracking down spare parts is frankly bizarre. You shouldn't be unblocking people if you don't understand why saying that (even if not serious) can be extremely scary to that editor, who now might need to worry about a sociopath from the internet trying to hurt them. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also RE the TTYD block JPxG should know that "what about X" isn't really a good argument on wiki. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you think I am lying (?) about this phrase being used in normal contexts, I will look it up in the dictionary. Here is what Cambridge's definition says:
to search for someone or something, often when it is difficult to find that person or thing:
I’m trying to track down one of my old classmates from college.
- Dictionary.com says:
Follow successfully, locate, as in I've been trying to track down that book but haven't had any luck. This term alludes to the literal use of track , “follow the footsteps of.”
- Collins says:
If you track down someone or something, you find them, or find information about them, after a difficult or long search.
She had spent years trying to track down her parents.
I'll go and have a quick word, then we'll track down Mr Derringer.
The last time I had flown with him into the Sahara to track down hijacked weapons.
There had been some spectacular busts in recent history, but even the FBI could not work fast enough to track down these people.
- Do you think that "trying to track down her parents" implies that the person in the example sentence is a "sociopath" who is "trying to hurt them"? I agree that this was a very dumb choice of words, due to the potential for being misinterpreted, as can be seen above. Indeed, one of the examples (the last given) does imply hostility. I would not say this. I do not think that all of these dictionaries are engaged in a "frankly bizarre attempt to downplay" the phrase, nor do I think that is a fair summary of what I did. jp×g🗯️ 14:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm saying that I agree that there are other ways to read tracking someone down but it still wasn't appropriate to adjust blocking time without consensus. This was more than simply calling a person an idiot. They said
Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page
andAnd: You're an idiot for approving political flamebait for the front page.
Their unblock rationale is not good enough, in my opinion. Just because incivility isn't enforced enough as it should be isn't a reason to just not apply it all. Indefinite does mean infinite, but the editor in question should come up with a better unblock request instead of simply waiting out the two weeks and going back to editing like nothing happened. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- I suppose you may be correct. Well, I am going to bed; if a bunch of people come up and say the guy is really that much of a menace that the block needs to be lengthened, I will not be around to do so. I will abide my general practice on administrative actions, which is that if someone is so convinced of my idiocy they feel the need to undo it, then sure, I guess. jp×g🗯️ 15:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think you're lying, just a bit naïve. If someone says
"Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page! And then track down the editor who put it there."
on the internet to a stranger, the common sense interpretation is that it is a threat of violence. Your examples of other uses of the wording are all well and good when discussing in-person, normal interactions. But the pseudonymity of social media emboldens the craven. Threats of violence come easier to the keyboard fingers when the perpetrator is safely out of reach. Zaathras (talk) 14:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- Well, when confronted, he said that it was not meant to suggest anything be done to the person:
I mentioned no one by name,and suggested no action. Therefore neither puposefully OR blantantly nor would that constitute harrassment.
This seems pretty straightforward to me, although I get that people want the guy gone, so do what you want. jp×g🗯️ 15:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, when confronted, he said that it was not meant to suggest anything be done to the person:
- I'm saying that I agree that there are other ways to read tracking someone down but it still wasn't appropriate to adjust blocking time without consensus. This was more than simply calling a person an idiot. They said
- No, he did not, and I agree that this unblock should not have happened. This attempt to downplay "editor X should be tracked down" by comparing it to tracking down spare parts is frankly bizarre. You shouldn't be unblocking people if you don't understand why saying that (even if not serious) can be extremely scary to that editor, who now might need to worry about a sociopath from the internet trying to hurt them. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a compromise between zero and infinity, reduced to two weeks. jp×g🗯️ 11:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: commute block to topic ban
Self-explanatory, I think. Riventree's outburst, and the follow up discussion on their talk page, show that they hold views incompatible with neutral editing about this topic. Furthermore there clearly was not consensus to unblock (the blocking administrator explicitly said no) and JPxG's cowboy admin action should not stand, but a wheel war isn't going to help anyone. A topic ban from AP2, gender-related controversies, and/or feminism as a broad topic, would serve to prevent future disruption in these sensitive topics; meanwhile Riventree can appeal the sanction later once they've taken time to reflect on their behaviour here.
- Support as proposer; interested in further comments on the scope of a topic ban. Ivanvector (/Edits) 15:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lengthen the block if you want. jp×g🗯️ 15:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- They've made a total of 135 edits since the beginning of 2022, 17 of which have been in the last 24 hours. I'm not sure how much a topic ban really matters. Never the less, I'd support a topic ban as a bare minimum, especially considering their follow up edits to Retelling (1, 2. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think a topic ban is needed. This editor has never edited in that area before and I presume will not after this debace. I would like tue indef to be reimposed until we actually get a sufficient unblock request. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Considering this is such an old account and the bad edits are all recent, is it possible we're dealing with a compromised account situation? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Problematic edits in the AMPOL area and with other users aren't recent. Never say never, but judging from some of their older edits:
- : unsourced switching of the language from "break free" to "resisted arrest" in the Killing of Rayshard Brooks. (Followup conversation at Eeng's talkage, wher they justified the change as original research ; note that at the time, the BLP policy still applied to Brooks so accusing him of a crime without a source is a major no-no)
- Removed the fact that the counterfeit bill Floyd was accused of having was a $20 bill with the edit summary "Exclude trivia" in Murder of George Floyd.
- : Changed "it is widely believed that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" "it feared that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" with the edit summary "Forgive me, I abhor emotion-laden politics, but this is actually relevant here" - note how it is very similar to the language and tone they used at DYK yesterday
- User talk:Andy Dingley/Archive 2020#Do you even READ my comments anymore, or do you just click "revert" out of habit? shows the same pattern of coming in very strong with personal attacks and aspersions, then backing down and apologizing a while later.
- Talk:Holocene extinction/Archive 3#Softening of exceedingly authoritative language and some attempting to desribe the Holocene Extinction as "theoretical", something something "the knee-jerk alarmists who were happy to simply assert human causation as the cause of an eco-disaster".
- Tried to make the article Millennium Challenge 2002 more neutral by adding an unsourced paragraph called "The Argument Over 'Scripting'". When questioned on the taklk, they justified this by saying
UM, no. It's just deduction. It's certainly not 'military propaganda', because the neutrality flag pointed out that the military perspective (not side, not propaganda) wasn't included at all.
1.
- Additionally, and I find this especially relevant given @JPxG's concerns about a double standard because they weren't "handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology", they were given a final warning for harrassment and personal attacks by Yunshui in 2020.. Follow up here:, though I obvious do not know the severity of what Riventree did, given that it apparently needed revdel. Can any admin give insight? GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Problematic edits in the AMPOL area and with other users aren't recent. Never say never, but judging from some of their older edits:
- Considering this is such an old account and the bad edits are all recent, is it possible we're dealing with a compromised account situation? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think a topic ban is needed. This editor has never edited in that area before and I presume will not after this debace. I would like tue indef to be reimposed until we actually get a sufficient unblock request. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support Whether the account is compromised or not I don't think we want to have an editor who responds this way to something as bromine as the idea of the feminist retelling editing in the various contentious topics that this overlaps. I'd want to see such a TBan encompassing at least WP:GENSEX broadly construed. As for AP2 I'm a bit worried of the tendency of Americans to turn every social issue into a domestic political issue, especially immediately following a governmental transition but AP2 needs fewer hot-heads, not more, so I'd be weakly supportive of that one too. Simonm223 (talk) 19:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not think that a topic ban is the solution to this problem. The colloquial phrase "track down" can certainly be used benignly as the various quotes above show, but context is all-important. In this case, as it was actually used in the context of the rage filled rant, I read it as either a threat of outing (most likely) or a threat of violence (distinctly possible). In my opinion, this editor needs to show a deeper understanding of why what they said was intimidating and totally wrong. Cullen328 (talk) 20:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Reinstate indef
A discussion is needed on this to prevent WP:WHEEL from applying. Proposal is pretty much the title, reinstate indef until a more convincing unblock rationale is made.
- Support as proposer. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support with the conditional modifier that I would like to see the tban discussed in the proposal above remain in effect should they subsequently become unblocked. Simonm223 (talk) 19:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose reinstating indef, support gensex/ap2 topic ban. If they can't handle that, then indef. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support It shouldn't have been lifted in the first place. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per Voorts and the long pattern of sub-optimal behavior and previous warnings as documented by GreenLipstickLesbian. GLL, as for the revision deleted content, in the process of mocking an editor they disagreed with, this editor linked to another website that criticized the mocked editor and outed a third editor. It was ugly in general but linking to the outing was what led to the revdel. Cullen328 (talk) 21:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support given the history—particularly the outing, which correlates with the “track down” comment in the current case. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Anonymous8206
Editor using Misplaced Pages as a social network blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Anonymous8206 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Disruptive (soapbox, forum) and personal attacks at Donald Trump for over a year. Examples: .
They have been warned on their talk page multiple times for this, e.g.: Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BLP policy applies to every living person, even Donald Trump. I think a topic ban from all things Trump, broadly construed, is called for here. Cullen328 (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example of using talk pages as a forum on an unrelated topic: Special:PermanentLink/1268615581#Liddle Hart.
I think a final warning rather than a TBAN would be appropriate.voorts (talk/contributions) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) - I've indef'd this user as not here. Per X-tools, 152/182 edits (83.5%) are in talkspace, 105 are to Talk:Donald Trump in particular, and 3 are to mainspace. Apart from the problematic Trump edits, most of this user's other edits appear to be similar forumy posts or musings on random talk pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Two editors edit warring and attacking others while whitewashing fascism of an individual
As the title suggests, this includes:
- SuvGh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Camarada internacionalista (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Has tried to remove the reliably sourced content 3 times, and used rude editor summaries like "disgusting argument". Has no activity on talk page or anywhere else to address his edits. See WP:COMMUNICATE.
Both of them were sufficiently warned. Capitals00 (talk) 02:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Blocked SuvGh for 24 hours for personal attacks in edit summaries and violating 3RR in spirit if not in letter (slightly over 24 hours for four reverts but blatant edit-warring). Camarada internatcionalista hasn't breached 3RR but is edit-warring, I'll let another admin decide if they need a block as they aren't currently editing it appears. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- That talk page section they made should have been removed for being a WP:FORUM attempt to disparage sources on grounds of national origin. Borgenland (talk) 03:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Camarada internacionalista has made 2 more reverts now. Capitals00 (talk) 05:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
I have blocked both editors indefinitely. Hate is disruptive. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 05:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 - personal attacks
2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs) I saw an IP making an unmistakable personal attack on one user (telling them to resign for being "worthless"), and all of their edits are like this, it seems. I think that the /64 edits from a few days ago on the Denali situation are enough to say that they're the same user on the IP, given the political nature. I'm almost certain they're abusing a larger range than this, as zooming out to the /42 shows more political badgering. A previous /64 in that range was blocked as well for similar reasons. Departure– (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I blocked. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just for the one IP, though - the range is unblocked, looks like. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. I was sleeping, but good to see action being taken. :) EF 13:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Incivility and edit-warring
After being explained by Wiznut at 1.00am UTC today about how even discussing through edit summaries while reverting in good faith is edit warring, Thelittlefaerie has opened a discussion on the article talk and stopped edit warring. Additionally, they are now aware that making personal attacks is prohibited and have issued an apology to editors they attacked while in a heated argument. As a talk discussion is now open for content issues, and this user now seems aware about how we resolve disputes here on Misplaced Pages, I am closing this section with no prejudice to it being re-opened should subpar behaviour recur. I think a little WP:ROPE is justified here as they are a new editor, who now knows about the dispute resolution processes and is now engaging collaboratively. MolecularPilot 06:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is concerning user User:Thelittlefaerie (talk and contributions). A new user, who initially made several good faith mistakes related to providing sources and not using original research. However, he also decided that the Afghanistan population at List of countries and dependencies by population needed to be correct. A history of the edit war, which involved Thelittlefaerie vs three other editors (including me):
Users involved:
Thelittlefaerie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Wizmut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
MIHAIL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Magnolia677 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Dates:
20 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie changes the figure without a source, which is reverted by me. For this article, unsourced changes happen regularly, so I did not take the effort to give Thelittlefaire much explanation.
21 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie tries again, this time using a source, but an unreliable one.
22 Dec 2024 : I revert, mentioning the selection criteria for this article's sources. Thelittlefaerie reverts, and also reverts an unrelated change. I leave it, and instead start a topic on the talk page.
26 Dec 2024 : User User:MIHAIL (talk and contributions) changes the figure back to an official source. (yes that government does use google drive links)
3 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie changes it back to his version, and in the edit summary he uses the phrase "This is your final straw."
7 Jan 2025 : MIHAIL changes it back. His edit summary in full: "why insist with UN or copies of UN when you have official data ?... i've seen Thelittlefaerie vandalize certain pages... the official matters, not fanaticism". In a vain attempt to help matters, I add a footnote to the Afghanistan entry detailing three different estimates.
16 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie again, this time including in his edit summary "And now you are acting like a complete fool. I am DONE WITH THIS. You are just a terrible person." and also "Either stop or I'll keep making edits." This edit was particularly troublesome, not only for the incivility, but because he reverted over a dozen unrelated edits. This was reverted by User:Magnolia677.
17 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie says he "could not reach out to you Magnolia677" (I can see no such attempt) and reverts again. This again reverts over a dozen unrelated changes, so I do the revert this time, and also try to warn Thelittlefaerie on the talk page and on his user page.
22 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie comes back and reverts, without affecting other entries and without incivility. After this, he finally posts on the talk page, with the argument: "I am putting the right source and this is the right version. Please do not change."
I would like help in responding to this user, who has exhausted my patience.
Wizmut (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Magnolia's user talk page is extended confirmed protected, due to WP:LTA-related issues, so their story of trying to reach out to her but failing does check out. Both their behaviour and edit summaries are completely unacceptable, however. MolecularPilot 04:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does seem like this could have gone to WP:ANEW. But since it is here now, I'd like to hear from User:Thelittlefaerie. They don't edit every day so I'm not sure when they might show up. I think discussion would be more effective than a block as they could end up being blocked over days when they aren't even on Misplaced Pages. Liz 04:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello! Thelittlefaerie speaking. My final message be put in simple words, I necessarily don't think that the population of Afghanistan would be 35M which the google drive link states. There are many reasons supporting this. First of all, if you look at a number of sources showing the population of Afghanistan in 2006, it shows it as 31-32M. It has been 19 years since that official estimate (I believe) and I really don't think that the population of Afghanistan in the year of 2023-2025 would be 35M. Second of all, Afghanistan has one of the highest fertility rates in the world right now, which in response to the following reverts, do not relate or make sense. Thirdly and lastly, I have visited Afghanistan myself and is a full blooded Afghan and I can assure you there are way more than 35M people This leads me to believe that the USCB or UN estimates are more thoughtful. Thank you. Thelittlefaerie (talk) 05:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, Thelittlefaerie! Thank you for raising these points. ANI is, however, for conduct issues, not content issues - we don't assess whether what you were trying to do is valid but analyse your behaviour including comments like "terrible person" and "complete fool". It is good to see that your more recent commons are becoming more civil and engaging with other editors in a collaborative manner, like and which afterwards you started a discussion on the article talk after an editor, Wiznut, informed you of how to do this.
- I think if you can apologise and agree to not make personal attacks against other editors again, and refrain from edit warring (which it seems you have now learned about and stopped, by starting a Talk section and not continuing to discuss in edit summaries of subsequent reverts) and engage on the talk page section you started we should all be able to move forward civilly and collaboratively here. If this doesn't reach a consensus, you can seek dispute resolution.
- Thank you for your contributions trying to improve the article, I understand how frustrating some things can be as a newcomer and thank you for learning from your mistakes and working with us here! MolecularPilot 05:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- In response, I apologize and agree to not make personal attacks on other people. I was frustrated, but that is not an excuse for me. Thank you for your cooperation. Also, we should update the page on Afghanistan too as that says it has 35M.
- Thank you,
- Thelittlefaerie Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please ignore my latest message, I meant to send this to another talk page Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- (I mean the Afghanistan page updating.) Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please ignore my latest message, I meant to send this to another talk page Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello! Thelittlefaerie speaking. My final message be put in simple words, I necessarily don't think that the population of Afghanistan would be 35M which the google drive link states. There are many reasons supporting this. First of all, if you look at a number of sources showing the population of Afghanistan in 2006, it shows it as 31-32M. It has been 19 years since that official estimate (I believe) and I really don't think that the population of Afghanistan in the year of 2023-2025 would be 35M. Second of all, Afghanistan has one of the highest fertility rates in the world right now, which in response to the following reverts, do not relate or make sense. Thirdly and lastly, I have visited Afghanistan myself and is a full blooded Afghan and I can assure you there are way more than 35M people This leads me to believe that the USCB or UN estimates are more thoughtful. Thank you. Thelittlefaerie (talk) 05:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does seem like this could have gone to WP:ANEW. But since it is here now, I'd like to hear from User:Thelittlefaerie. They don't edit every day so I'm not sure when they might show up. I think discussion would be more effective than a block as they could end up being blocked over days when they aren't even on Misplaced Pages. Liz 04:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Update: Since the closure of this thread and after TFL found the talk page section and the two-way discussion began, MIHAL (already notified of this discussion above), using an edit summary containing personal attacks (they have been advised to apologise for these) reverted the changes by thelittlefaerie (made prior to joining the talk), which thelittlefaerie then reverted. Both users have now been informed by me that there is no "right version" for the article to be on while the talk page discussion occurs and so I think everyone is ready to collaborate and come up with a compromise, now understanding how talk discussions work, so this doesn't need to be reopened. Hopefully we can all find a solution together! :) MolecularPilot 21:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Swagsgod
(non-admin closure) Swagsgod blocked and TPA revoked. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:12, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can User:Swagsgod please be swiftly blocked? They are constantly creating inappropriate pages. They are listed at AIV, but the stream of new pages continues quite rapidly. Fram (talk) 12:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking into it. jp×g🗯️ 12:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeffed. Here is an example of the stuff they are spamming:
Multimedia Group is the largest independent commercial media and entertainment company in Ghana. Founded in 1995 by a Ghanaian entrepreneur, Mr. Kwame Appiah, the company has grown from humble beginnings with 12 employees to directly employing some 700 people across its 6 radio brands, 3 online assets and Ghana's first free multi channel television brand in over 25 years of operation. The Multimedia Group has been a major spur for the growth in the advertising, creative arts and entertainment industries, particularly the gospel music industry. The Multimedia Group Go For God
Certify your English anytime, anywhere Test online, no appointment needed Get results in 2 days A fraction of the cost of other tests
- etc. jp×g🗯️ 12:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I went through their contribs and deleted the spam pages (most of which had already been tagged properly by @Fram:). Let me know if I have missed anything. jp×g🗯️ 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. Their user page is extremely bizarre, but somehow gives the impression that they want to accuse the former president of Ghana of some "high criminal offense"? I guess deleting that one would be advisable (it certainly wouldn't lose anything of value). Fram (talk) 12:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Gone. —Kusma (talk) 12:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? You didn't believe that the user behind gibberish such as
Ordinary BBC at a temperature of unknown figures higher than the melting point of gallium, and 29" as you see Visualize Sunday,29Th October, 2025 Alarm 4:48pm UTC... from a Primark Bank Account which values an unregistered license sports cars in different variables used in Analysis
was qualified to "Certify your English anytime"? Meters (talk) 12:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- They keep going on their talk page now, maybe yank TPA? Supreme_Bananas (talk) 13:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- What? You didn't believe that the user behind gibberish such as
- Gone. —Kusma (talk) 12:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. Their user page is extremely bizarre, but somehow gives the impression that they want to accuse the former president of Ghana of some "high criminal offense"? I guess deleting that one would be advisable (it certainly wouldn't lose anything of value). Fram (talk) 12:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I went through their contribs and deleted the spam pages (most of which had already been tagged properly by @Fram:). Let me know if I have missed anything. jp×g🗯️ 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeffed. Here is an example of the stuff they are spamming:
IP Editor(s) continuously changing flags without source
The following IP Editor(s) have been making continuous changes to the flags on the Islamic State of Iraq page without any sources to backup their claims, when the changes are reverted, they just go back and revert the revert and still provide no source, thus causing what I believe to be an unnecessary disruption.
2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:d12c:6979:d06c:9d74, 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:ec:5fe:fa19:caa0, 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:7c47:7be6:c3c9:7078 and 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:6d71:4017:3ed8:b70d Catalyst GP real (talk) 14:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
142.190.62.131
Long-term abuse possible proxy vandal operating out of Alabama, vandalism-only account. Almost all edits to their talk page before the three-year-block are warnings or include Huggle tags(see tak page hist). The reason I'm reporting this user on ANI instead of AVI, is because of the user continuing to vandalize Misplaced Pages after blocks that sometimes took years to expire, one time even two years, which might fall under chronic intractable behavioral problems. This user is currently blocked for 3 years after I already reported them at AVI, but will likely continue to vandalize Misplaced Pages again after the block. This user has been vandalizing Misplaced Pages since 2020. The IP is from Alabama and belongs to a company named "Southern Light, LLC". I don't know if the user is actually operating out of Alabama, or if they are using a proxy. I've seen multiple IPs from the "142" range that are vandalizing Misplaced Pages or contributing unconstructively, although I don't think they have much to do with this user. Their edits to the page "Athenian democracy" didn't get reverted for over two years. Three of their edits got deleted, including their first edit. RaschenTechner (talk) 15:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP addresses generally do not correlate to a person. In most cases, they are randomly assigned to a customer on that ISP, then cycle around to another random customer. If there's a long history of petty vandalism, it could potentially be a school, library, public transportation, or some other shared IP with lots of users. Every so often, I think, "I should write an intro to IP addresses", but the best I've come up with yet is User:NinjaRobotPirate/IP editors. And while there are peer-to-peer proxies and VPNs all over the place, there's generally little reason for normal users get worried about them. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
IP range edit warring on variety of Canadian politics articles
An IP range user (2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) has been adding contentious or poorly sourced material to a variety of articles related to Canadian politics (including BLPs). I haven't been able to warn them as the IP changes frequently but did let them know here why I reverted their additions. They've also been causing problems in other articles with unreliable sources or poor information eg 1 eg 2.
The user does not appear to be interested in building an encyclopedia productively. Citing (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Tried notifying them here for what that's worth. Citing (talk) 17:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Abusive user
Valid vandalism revert of an edit that clearly looked like vandalism. That Shaggydan did not mean to vandalize is good, but it does not change the fact that any reasonable editor would have taken the edit as vandalism; editors are not expected to read minds. Shaggydan is advised that they have full responsibility for all edits made by their account, including those made by code they choose to run on their machine. I suggest they find something better to do than argue about this. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 17:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Moved from the help desk. Courtesy link: Opolito (talk · contribs), filed by Shaggydan (talk · contribs), moved by Departure– (talk) 17:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
User Opolito is flagging users, including me, for vandalism when there is no vandalism. Who is able to restrict his account and remove his warnings and how do I bring this to their attention? Shaggydan (talk) 15:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a matter for the Administrator's Noticeboard for Incidents. Be sure to read the rules there before posting your situation. Departure– (talk) 15:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Shaggydan. User:Opolito has flagged you for vandalism for this edit of yours. After he flagged you for vandalism on your talk page, you called him a swear word and then he flagged you for personal attack. And, it seems like the warnings he gives to other Users seem genuine. Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Shaggydan: - Let me caution you before bringing it to the notice board, your uncivil behavior such as this will very likely also be scrutinized. Furthermore by looking at this edit, I would suggest that it is very possible you will be the one facing sanctions. TiggerJay (talk) 15:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Shaggydan: Do you have a browser extension which automatically changes "Trump" to "Drumpf"? It may not have been your intention to make this change in edits but it looks like vandalism. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @PrimeHunter Thank you for being the first person to review my concern. As I mention on my Talk page, you are correct. As I mention there, I removed an extraneous word from early in the article. The only use of the word "Trump" occurs in a few titles in the reference section. I would have thought Misplaced Pages would not allow extensions to make edits. I was mistaken in my understanding of the security of the site's code. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. Opolito has acted in bad faith in this case and multiple others. Do you know how to invoke some supervision on his account? Shaggydan (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- You caused damage to the encyclopedia with that dumb browser extension, then blew up with actual personal attacks when someone came to the obvious conclusion that this constituted intentional vandalism. Get rid of the extension and stop trying to get others sanctioned for a situation of your making. Manufactured outrage is not a valid currency here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 17:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism.
You seriously don't understand how someone could reasonably see changing Trump's name to Drumpf could look like vandalism? BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 17:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @PrimeHunter Thank you for being the first person to review my concern. As I mention on my Talk page, you are correct. As I mention there, I removed an extraneous word from early in the article. The only use of the word "Trump" occurs in a few titles in the reference section. I would have thought Misplaced Pages would not allow extensions to make edits. I was mistaken in my understanding of the security of the site's code. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. Opolito has acted in bad faith in this case and multiple others. Do you know how to invoke some supervision on his account? Shaggydan (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Shaggydan: Do you have a browser extension which automatically changes "Trump" to "Drumpf"? It may not have been your intention to make this change in edits but it looks like vandalism. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- User Departure- moved this topic to this page and it appears to be the appropriate forum for my concern. I will add further detail to support my initial statement.
- I recently made a minor edit to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1270798753&markasread=333745816&markasreadwiki=enwiki&oldid=prev&title=Character.ai. A sentence early in the article read, "Many characters are be based on fictional media sources". I deleted the word "be" and explained my edit in the comments. There were 3 uses of the word "Trump" in titles in the reference section. Nine years ago TV show Last Week Tonight put out a Chrome extension that changes that surname to its original European spelling of "Drumpf". Unbeknownst to me the extension changed the three instances of "Trump" to "Drumpf" in citations of a page about a website that had nothing to do with politics or individuals with that name.
- Despite not changing any names in the article (only the reference titles) and making a constructive change to the article which was explained, Opolito assumed bad faith and slapped a vandalism warning on me. There was no discussion with me. A user of 1 year failed to follow the rules on reporting vandalism. It is my understanding this subjects me to a possible ban should he do this again. I am requesting any notation of vandalism be removed from my account.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. I brought this up in the talk section of my page. He responded it was my responsibility to make perfect edits and claimed I was complaining "the dog ate my homework". He write on my Talk page, "Your edit does not fall under "good faith" and was clearly vandalism. Your very poor excuses aren't convincing anyone." His response illustrates his obliviousness to what constitutes bad faith.
- He then left a warning about attacking other editors claiming I may be blocked from editing because he did not like my response to his false claim of vandalism in my own talk page. I have been a small editor for decades. I don't know how to make claims against others to manage their accounts, but he seems to have done that twice to my account. I am requesting any damage he did to my account be undone.
- I am not the only user to have this problem. User NoahBWill, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/User:NoahBWill2002, who 12 days ago started on his talk page, "Opolito, my friend, this is Noah B. Will; Why do you have to accuse me of vandalism? I've only been just trying to help out, that's all."
- Twenty two days ago a user wrote on his Talk page, "Ciarán Hinds is a Northern Irish actor. The infobox clearly states that he was born in Northern Ireland. Do not accuse people making factual changes to a dictionary of being 'not constructive' again." Opolito's response shows he neither understands that Northern Ireland, where Hinds was born, is not part of Ireland AND he continues to falsely charge users with malpractice even when he himself is wrong saying, "being born in Northern Ireland is not the same thing as being Northern Irish. The sources that describe his nationality at all describe him as "Irish". Misplaced Pages article reflect what the sources say. Changing an article to reflect your opinion instead of what the sources say is not allowed. Please do not continue to do so."
- 29 days ago user Wilvis1 added an appropriate fact to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Crisfield,_Maryland. He supported the fact with a link to a local business making the claim. Opolito accused Wilvis1 of posting spam. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Crisfield,_Maryland&action=history. It clearly was not spam.
- On December 5, Opolito threatened another user. That user responded, "You were also clearly threatening me of a block warning when I clearly did nothing wrong. I ask you kindly to please stop threatening me with your block notification messages on my talk page. You keep making up stuff and said just because I removed it, I didn’t like it, that is NOT were I’m coming from, I explained it to you three times in my edit summaries and yet you refuse to listen. Please chill with your edits and just listen for a moment before this gets out of hand. 2.56.173.95 (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)"
- These examples are just from users who have mentioned recent issues on his Talk page. His edit history confirms a pattern of abuse. A quick look shows on January 20 on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/David_Lynch he threatened user Vinnylospo with bring blocked from editing for adding "unsourced or poorly sources material" calling it a "final warning". Vinnylospo had added the page to the Category for January 2025 California Wildfires. The Hollywood Reporter, as referenced in the article, has reported Lynch's condition severely worsened upon being forced to evacuate due to the fires just before his death. Despite this, Opolito took offense at the inclusion of the category and again threatened a user who had made a good faith edit.
- I find this behavior deeply concerning and contrary to Misplaced Pages's mission. I just try to make the site a little better where I see errors or things that need cleaning up from time to time. I do not pretend to be versed in all the mechanisms in place for one user to harm another. I know enough that vandalism procedures were not correctly followed by Opolito in my case and others and that takes away from the site's mission. I hope this is in the right place and that something can be done to prevent this from continuing to occur. Shaggydan (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
User using multiple non-account IPs to mass-remove information
- 93.204.189.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 2003:D3:FF39:B51E:70D0:BF68:E7ED:B8DA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 2003:D3:FF39:B598:98F3:BF2A:47F0:FB06 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Those three accounts all appear to be the same person, who is doing mass removal of information with minimal to no notes. I have reverted some of their edits on Gerald Butler (writer) (because they removed information that I added and sourced myself), but user continuously reverts. After quickly going through their other edits, it doesn't appear they are making any constructive edits. I'd love some help dealing with this issue.--Bricks&Wood talk 18:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Category: