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Revision as of 03:39, 2 January 2014 view sourceArmbrust (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers326,835 editsm →Proposal: fix← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 00:18, 23 January 2025 view source Ponyo (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators171,984 edits →User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of viewWikipedia:Categories_for_discussion, maybe more): quick note to avoid confusion
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			{{Short description|Noticeboard for reporting incidents to administrators}}<noinclude><!-- Inside the noinclude, because this page is transcluded.-->{{/Header}}</noinclude>{{clear}}
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	As this page concerns INCIDENTS:
	Place the PAGENAME of the incident in the header.
			== ] and persistant ], ], and ]-failing articles ==
	Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header.
			{{atop|This section has been stale for a few days and was at the top of ANI (i.e. the oldest un-archived post) and about to be automatically archived without action. I find consensus for an indefinite (not infinite, you may appeal your restriction at ] if you can create some articles through AfC that demonstrate a better understanding of the policies) ban from creating articles in main space against ]. They may only create articles using the AfC process. This editing restriction will be logged at ]. ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}}
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			] has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of ] and ] seems to be lacking substantially.
	Do not place links in the section headers.
	(Immediately UNDER the header is preferred).
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	Entries may be refactored based on the above.
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			* was deleted for ]
			* on ] and ] grounds
	== Edits by 91.60.163.227 ==
			* on ] and ]
	{{pagelinks|Germany–Israel relations}} has been repeatedly edited by {{lu|91.60.163.227}} to introduce controversial and unsourced information. (See diffs , ,)
			*They've been warned about ] and .
	The user repeatedly introduces information without citations and gets upset on the article talk page (see ] and ]) when it is removed because of ], ], etc.
			*] which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in )
	] and I (]) have been reverting some of the damage and are trying to explain it to the IP via the article talk page. We are walking the narrow line of ] and would like some feedback or action about this. —]·] 18:51, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
	* '''What ]·] said.''' On the first diff that was listed, the user added the <nowiki>{{cn}}</nowiki> template to facts which were clearly covered by the cited source. The user stated that the cited article was ], and therefore not valid. He is not receptive at all to discussion, nor referral to policies. —]<sub>]/]</sub> 18:56, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
	:*'''Just an upate...''' 3 days after the incident was reported to ], and with no further edits or participation in discussion seen from ], I have reverted the article to its previous, properly sourced version. —]<sub>]/]</sub> 18:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support topic ban''' and further investigation. I suspect that the editors 91.60.163.227 and 91.60.169.118 (who has been editing the Talk page of the article in question) to be socks of a previously disciplined editor, as both new accounts immediately began submitting edits with formatted references (something no truly new editor would have experience with). Given the obsession of both IPs with purported "jewish crimes" and Israel-bashing, I rather doubt any rational discussion will be forthcoming. (IP traces source two suburbs of Bremen metro area in Germany. Home & work computers?)
	:Side-note: someone should take a look at ], which the 91.60.163.227 IP has been active in, as I would guess revisionist propaganda in being worked in. --] (]) 10:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			*Plenty of articles containing only one source ], ], ], ], ], ]
	== Destructive editing ==
	{{archivetop|] topic-banned from The Wiggles, widely construed. The topic ban can be appealed if Dcelano can show that he has understood the issues and is willing (and able) to comply with Misplaced Pages's policies, especially on verifiability and reliable sources. ] (]) 17:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	A bot archived the following, so in case it was done by mistake, I'm reposting this. Please let me know if I've done anything inappropriately.
			Most recently there's ], which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.
	For most of this month, ] has been violating policy at ] and its associated pages, despite numerous warnings and requests to stop from myself and from ]. Here are some diffs: Removal of content without explanation or discussion ; addition of unsourced edits . On ], he's used it as a ], despite repeated requests to stop; see everything after December 3, from the section "Anthony's Shirts" onward. . Most egregiously, Dcelano deleted part of the talk page when I warned him that if he continued, I'd see about getting him blocked. . He has also engaged in the same sort of behavior on my talk page and on AngusWOOF's . There are other examples on other Wiggles pages as well. I think that a block is in order, since that seems to be the only thing that will stop him. Thanks for your consideration. ] (]) 05:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
			Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. ] but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to ] someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a ] article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. ] 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:{{nao}} - FYI: Threads are moved to the archives after 36 hours of inactivity. With the report you've presented, I'm kinda' surprised (<small>''and kinda' not''</small>) that an admin has not responded to this yet. I'll post-date my comment to prevent archiving for you. - '']'' 05:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. ] ] 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Threads are indeed archived when there's no actions required, often because other venues have not be tried yet. As is the case here. Odd that the OP would jump to the "blocks are the only thing to stop him" when we have some very minor "offenses" (ie, we don't block for using an article talkpage as a forum). We '''do''' however, have ] <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 11:41, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
			::I checked this ] which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Late addendum, but it looks like the user in question was tagged by a research team on their talk page as possibly using AI to edit, which would track with the article writing vs content quality if it's the case. ] 12:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. ] (]) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::AI detection methods are so faulty that I’m 100% willing to accept this as truth. Sorry about that. ] 19:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:
			:*1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "]," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
			:*2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
			:*3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
			:*4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
			:*5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
			:*6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
			:*7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.
			:Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "]". ] (]) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{tq|I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.}}
			::I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between ] and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.
			::{{tq|I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.}}
			::Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails ] doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass ] and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example
			::{{tq|A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".}}
			::I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have ] issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass ] before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. ] 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			* The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that ''is'' in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. ] 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	The "Removal of content without explanation or discussion" link doesn't seem to show what you intended to show. Do you have a correct link? <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 13:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the ] policy. I propose and '''support''' a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating ], they gain that necessary understanding/competence. ] (]) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''SUPPORT''' ban from article creation. ] ] 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' article creation ban. ] (]) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*'''Comment:''' While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. ]. ] 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	Please take a look at all of ] contribuations and on ] and ] Talk Page I Beleave that Dcelano has Ben Anoying Them for a long time and They have had Enough ] (]) 15:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:*:Hello, I think the issue might have been with the article describing the events as "course of hostilities" which could make it seem like it was a continuous conflict. I've fixed that to make it clear now. ] (]) 18:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I'm not going to read ''all'' of Dcelano's contributions. I have read the other diffs provided, but the claim "Removal of content without explanation or discussion" is an important one, and I think the diff provided has a typo in it. I'm just trying to see if anyone can show that particular behavior in a working diff. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 15:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{hat|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			:*'''Support''' Ban.
	:
			:] (]) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	* deleted comment and warning on talk:the wiggles page
			:I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with ]. ] (]) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	* deleting off my page
			::There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored.
	* deleted link on article
			::I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. ] (]) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	-] (]) 16:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! ] (]) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. ] 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	As an outside admin, when I look over the diffs and user contributions, a few things are apparent to me.
			:::::I dunno. ] (]) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	#Dcelano is ''really'' into the Wiggles, and he seems to honestly ''want'' to contribute to Wiggles-related articles. However he does not cite his sources (nor does he use edit summaries effectively), and he doesn't seem to be able to distinguish reliable information from unreliable information. His edits are usually reverted.
			::::Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. ] (]) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	#He seems to use talkpages as if they were a fansite message board. His comments are not abusive or disruptive, but they are rarely useful or welcome.
	#In the view of the most prolific content contributors to these generally high-quality articles, Dcelano does not improve the articles or contribute meaningfully on talk pages, but simply creates more work for other editors who have to undo his changes. (Please correct me if I'm wrong in this summary of your views, AngusWOOF and Christine.)
	#Since ] is a Featured article, this problem is most pronounced there. Several editors work hard to maintain the quality of that article (along with related articles), and they resent having to revert one user's changes over and over again.
	#Over the last month he's made about 5 edits a day, which is hardly overwhelming, but it is a consistent issue. The same sort of behavior has been ongoing for at least a year, and he doesn't seemed to have improved the quality of his contributions in that time. It is very unlikely he will become a valued contributor to Wiggles-related articles in the future.
	Since he hasn't figured out how to effectively improve these articles over the last year, and since we run the risk of driving away the sort of editors who ''do'' meaningfully improve these articles, I'd be inclined to support a topic ban. What do others think? <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 18:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I think that's a pretty good assessment from what I can see, Quadell. What I'm seeing is a lot of time-sink for the involved editors; they constantly need to check his every edit and very little of it stays within the articles/talk pages. I think a topic ban of some kind or some other restriction is not a bad idea. ] (]) 18:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	* '''Support''' topic ban (''and'' possible block - this user should commit to contributing meaningfully, and using talk pages, edit summaries and sources properly. We have a regular contributor here, let's see if we can turn him into an effective one) - '']'' 21:49, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	Thanks, everyone. I agree that a topic ban would be the best option, for the reasons Quadell states above. It's true that Dcelano's behavior isn't overwhelming, but it is, as Q says, long-standing and annoying. ] can be heavily vandalized, so it's just one more thing to have to deal with to ensure its continuing quality. I don't have much faith that his behavior will change, though, since he has been known to do the same kinds of things on other Wiggles sites, even with bans and repeated requests to change. ] (]) 01:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	yes a Topic Ban and Maby a Block ] (]) 01:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Okay, it seems like everyone finds this solution appropriate. How do we implement a topic ban? <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 12:12, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Aren't Topic Bans normally handled by someone giving him/her a formal notification of the matter and someone watches his/her edits? ] ] ] 23:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I don't know. I've never initiated or enforced one before. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 13:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	ummm I thought an Admin would know what they are doing? Maby we should just ask somoneelse to block him? ] (]) 03:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I'm just interpreting the evidence and gathering consensus. Like I said, I haven't been involved in a topic ban before, and I'm not willing to use my admin tools unless I can be reasonably sure I'm doing so according to policy. Getting other admins involved is a great idea, which is why we're here. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 14:46, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Then can an admin act on this, please? This has drug out for a long time, and Dcelano continues his inappropriate editing. For example, his latest, just this morning (unsourced addition): I could cite other recent instances of his continuing behavior, but I think I've made my point. ] (]) 17:47, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Kafkasmurat ==
	{{user|Kafkasmurat}} has been leaving ridiculous and offensive comments on talk pages on Armenia-related articles, namely
	*] -
	*] - - I removed it per ]
	*] (an Armenian who killed ], one of the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide and was found not guilty by the German court) -
	Interestingly enough, this user hasn't been editing since 2008 and made a sudden comeback this January.
	His edits back in 2007 include blanking of Armenian Genocide three times and replacing it with
	{{cquote|Agitators have a tale:"armenian genocide" anybody can understand that is an aspersion(as tey can't prove it.)Turks and Armenians are fellows forever}}
	--] ] 22:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Calm down, talking shouldn't disturb you. I am a historian i read these articles and blanking was a mistake. Also, what is your purpose? You just can't stand freedom of expression?--] (]) 01:28, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	**Kafkasmurat, your feelings of brotherhood are greatly appreciated. However, Misplaced Pages is not the best place to express those. Also, this is not the place for comments such as . Seriously, that kind of commentary is blockable, and I say this as a total non-Armenian. As far as I know, of course. ] (]) 01:45, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{out}} Just a reminder to all admins reading this that editing in the Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict topic area is subject to discretionary sanctions described at ] and ]. ] (]) 01:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Thanks BMK. More paperwork. Kafka has been warned and logged. ] (]) 01:51, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nao}} The arbitration committee ] ''"Misplaced Pages is a reference work. Use of the site for political struggle accompanied by harassment of opponents is extremely disruptive and absolutely unacceptable.''". This is in addition to the notices on those articles advising that the talkpages are "''not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.''" I can't see that there is any justification for , for instance. "Freedom of expression" does not necessarily exist on Misplaced Pages (see ]). ]<sup>]</sup> 01:52, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	His comments are pretty self-explanatory. He just opened a section on me claiming "Any matter offenses to Turks ( even terrorism) gets support by the user" simply because I've edited ] article. I suggest admins take some actions. Users like him are not here to build an encyclopedia. --] ] 01:52, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	*User is now warned. I don't see a reason to pile it on right now; future disruption can be dealt with by blocking, for instance. ] (]) 03:06, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Yeah, I see. Thank you for issuing a warning. --] ] 03:10, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	::: I don't understand why you working so hard on it. I only wrote something at talk pages. If i'm wrong, you should tell it to me. Why is this rivalry? Nobody told me anything about my ideas. You just reverted the talking. I'm not your enemy. I'm against all blockades. You block someone and he'll come with another name. Instead of blocking, you can be advisory.--] (]) 20:48, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::: @Kafkasmurat: And '''''I''''' don't understand why you are editing English Misplaced Pages articles when your command of the language doesn't seem quite up to it. I'd suggest you'd be more helpful editing the Misplaced Pages of your native language. ] (]) 19:00, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::: It's just talking. I don't talk on articles. You're so intolerant and i'm not sure this is a voluntary encyclopedia. Since you're excluding the newcomers.--] (]) 10:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::: No, it's not "just talking": more than half of your edits (46/82) are to '''''articles'''''. Besides, you're no "newcomer", you've been editing here since 2007.<p>And, yes, I am quite intolerant of people who edit '''''English''''' Misplaced Pages who do not have sufficient command of the language to do so. I would '''''never''''' think of doing an edit on another language's Misplaced Pages which involved the expression of ideas when I couldn't properly convey because of my own deficiency in that language. That would be a disservice to their efforts to build a quality encyclopedia. It so happens that English Misplaced Pages, because of its dominance and the world-wide influence of the language, is a magnet for people to come here and fight their ethnic and nationalistic quarrels. It's a total pain in the patoot and causes no end of troubles, clogging up our noticeboards and taking up the time of our Arbitration Committee. That's bad enough, but when a significant portion of those POV warriors edit with poor English-language skills, it makes things even worse.<p>So, either learn to communicate better in English or stop editing articles here in a way that requires other editors to fix your languager-related errors, or, preferably, edit the Misplaced Pages(s) in the language(s) you have better competency in. ] (]) 18:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Signed up at 2007, but didn't have time contribute. It seems you're looking for trouble. I don't mean to harm anyone. Why don't you chill? It's a bad habit. And language matter: I use approriate languge while editing. There is no problem in articles. People can make mistakes at talk pages. You don't need to give grammar lecture for this.--] (]) 21:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::On the contrary, I have looked at some of your article edits, a random sample, and there '''''are''''' language problems with them that have to be corrected by other editors. That's not acceptable, so get better at writing in English or stop doing article edits.<p>As for my "looking for trouble", it's '''''your''''' behavior which is the subject of this report, including your early POV-vandalism edits, when you blanked entire articles you disagreed with, and not excepting the retaliatory report you filed below, which Drmies rightfully closed as being ] behavior. ] (]) 22:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::::Also, why do you write falsehoods that are so easily disproven? "Signed up at 2007, but didn't have time contribute," you wrote. Well, that's bullshit. You made 26 edits in 2007, which is 31% of your current total, and 17 of those were edits to articles, which is 37% of your article edits. So were were quite active in 2007, by your standards, and it remains true that you're not a "newbie" I'm driving away by pointing out the problems with your editing. You are, clearly, a POV-warrior deficient in English who shouldn't be editing here, and '''''certainly''''' shouldn't be editing in the manner you are. ] (]) 22:19, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	*I no longer object to an indef block for Kafkasmurat. I just warned them for soapboxing and I made . In addition, I'm wondering about their connection to {{ip|212.174.38.3}}, an address I just blocked for the same kind of anti-Armenian attitude--that is, the attitude that Armenians are holding out and Misplaced Pages editors are enabling it. I see that Kafkasmurat just posted on my talk page again; I can't wait to see what the news is now. At any rate, since I warned them and made a revert of their edits, I don't think I should be pulling the trigger on a block of any length right now, though I see no reason why I shouldn't if this continues. I hope this thread hasn't gone cold. ] (]) 16:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	**{{uninvolvededitor}} When in doubt, ]. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	***Unfortunately (and I really mean that; it is, I think, a very unfortunate and damaging policy choice) CheckUsers will not connect an account with an IP, which, of course, allows editors with accounts to sock fairly freely by hiding behind IPs. ] (]) 13:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	****Really? The second sentence on ] says the opposite. Or am I reading something incorrectly? '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 18:57, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	*****It's not very clearly written. As I understand it, CheckUsers do access IP data, and will use that to connect two or more '''''named accounts''''', but what they will not do (at least anymore - I swear I remember them doing it when I first became aware of CheckUsers and sockpuppetry investigations 6 or 7 years ago) is publicly connect a named account to an IP address, because (I guess) by doing so they would provide location information for that named account, which would be ] and violate WMF privacy rules. If I am correct about this, it means that there's no point in listing suspected IP socks with a single named account when filing an SPI, unless you expect a block on behaviorial grounds alone, because even if the CheckUser finds a connection between between the named account and a suspected IP sock, they won't block the IP sock, since that would be a ''de facto'' public admission of a connection.<p>If I'm wrong about this, I hope that a CheckUser, or someone who has been a CheckUser in the past, will correct me. ] (]) 21:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	******Personally, I feel that vandals and vandalizing socks give up their privacy rights by abusing the site's terms of service, and that we shouldn't bend over backwards to preserve their privacy. ] (]) 21:33, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	******BMK, you are correct: CU does not link to IPs (at least not for us). As far as I know. ] (]) 22:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	* Hi fellows. Firstly i'm not vandal. I don't harm any article. I don't edit without reference. Vandalism means being "only harmful" i guess. Secondly, i don't intend to upset anyone. That's a harsh conversation you're making. I just said something at "talk page". Is this enough to make someone "vandal"?? Finally, i have references, a base for talk pages i think; I have internet information, I can use proxies or different usernames but it's not my philosophy; "Anything you do, comes back, nothing is out of reason" i don't hide. Also, I contribute to other Wiki projects, i like giving away, never involved in such this judgement.--] (]) 23:00, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	** No one has said, or implied, that you are a vandal - the discussion simply drifted into another area when it was questioned whether your account was related to a blocked IP account. No, the issues concerning you here are two: primarily that your talk page comments are seen as "ridiculous and offensive", which, given their extremely pointed POV nature doesn't seem like an unreasonable assessment; and, secondarily, that you should not contribute to English Misplaced Pages '''''articles''''' given your level of English competency, as amply demonstrated by your comment above this one. Those are '''''separate''''' complaints, please don't conflate them. ] (]) 20:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	***, for instance, is not sufficiently correctly-written to be acceptable on English Misplaced Pages:<blockquote>11th century book Divânu Lügati't-Türk mentions archetypes of ], ] band tradition. It was an essential part of the military. Formed by soldiers. ] obtained this tradition from ]. 17th century traveler ] noted that the ] had 40 guilds of musicians in 1670's.</blockquote>I understand that your command of English is more than sufficient for colloquial use, but your addition of material such as this to an '''''encyclopedia''''' is problematic, as it makes us looks foolish and requires other editors to fix your words. Please do not contribute to Misplaced Pages articles until your command of English is sufficient to do so. ] (]) 19:33, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	== Threats at Ashley Spurlin ==
	{{archivetop|Threats revdel'ed by ]. - '']'' 05:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	{{la|Ashley Spurlin}} is up for deletion at this time but there are some troubling edit summaries from two or three IPs in the history that should probably be revdel'ed. <span style="color:red; font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold;">§]</span><sup>]</sup> 22:41, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
	* {{done}} ] (]) 22:58, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Kevin Bacon/Kevin Costner/Hollow Man (etc.) vandalism ==
	{{archivetop|Offending IP's have been blocked by ]. - '']'' 05:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC) }}
	Various IPs (or one user across multiple IPs) has been persistently vandalizing several groups of articles:
	* ], ], ], ]: changing ''Bicentennial Man''{{'}}s studio
	* ], ], and ]: changing Bacon's ''Hollow Man'' credit to Costner
	* ] and ]: changing "Universal Pictures" to "Columbia Pictures"
	* ]: changing "Fox" to "CBS" and "20th Century Fox" to "Columbia TriStar"
	The IPs:
	* {{IPuser|50.171.232.169}}
	* {{IPuser|174.30.197.137}}
	* {{IPuser|205.215.222.75}} (currently blocked already)
	* {{IPuser|205.215.222.132}}
	] (]) 02:47, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Nice... 1, 2, and 4 are now blocked for 1 year. ] (]) 03:08, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:If they come back please re-notify and we will partial protect the lot of the articles they're screwing with. ] (]) 03:10, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Uninvolved admin needed ==
	{{archivetop|1=Looks like this was all resolved the day it happened. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 06:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	I'd appreciate it if someone would come along and check ] and the history of its article, together with the non-mainspace contributions of the people recently involved therein. Several days ago, one of the participants in the recent events asked me to intervene, along with asking ], who (perhaps more wisely than I) hasn't intervened. As I see it, we've got several people (apparently WP:MEAT, but I'm not yet thoroughly convinced) attempting to add one online publication to the article on this city, all the while demonising ], the only other participant who seems to be participating in good faith. This isn't new, as it's been going on at least ; since that and a few related edits have been partly oversighted, I'm going to ask an oversighter's assistance. I've gotten the impression from some comments (and from one of the usernames, "Leavewikifactsalone") that the yes-let's-add people are working together with the online publication, since the publication tends to come up with its own pages () on points of this issue's arguments within hours of the arguments being made on-wiki. I've just fully protected the article on WP:SOCK and WP:SPAM grounds, and I'd especially appreciate it if someone would either confirm that this is the right thing, or revoke the protection on you-went-too-far grounds, or block some of the participants on you-didn't-go-far-enough grounds. ] (]) 12:59, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nao}} I've looked at the page and the pages requested and I am getting the same kind of feeling that I did when being confronted with members of a specific fandom who were trying to establish a walled gardeden of articles. I could see the EEML canvasing/off-wiki-coordination remedies, but that's a bit of a stretch. Perhaps a EditNotice letting all editors know that the page is being watched for attempts to subvert on wiki consensus might do the trick... ] (]) 13:54, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	: Yeah, I think that's about right. That doesn't look like a reliable news source at all; practically all the stories are posted by one person and it doesn't look very neutral at all to me. ] (]) 14:00, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I've blocked {{user|Leavewikifactsalone}} with a {{tlx|usernamehardblock}}. Might as well have called him/herself {{user|getthefuckoffmyarticle}}. There are a ton of ATT IP addresses in Columbus OH that seem to be the same individual adding the same info. ] <small>(])</small> 14:54, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I left an opinion, Nyttend. It's opposite of yours, but I took a different approach to my analysis than you did.--v/r - ]] 15:10, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Thank you for the input and the block. I wanted to block the account several days ago (without even checking the comments), purely because of the username, but I thought I might as well engage on WP:AGF grounds. Your opinion isn't exactly opposite of mine; my position was that it's being treated as media by other media sources, so we might as well include it as local media — after all, counting it as local media doesn't mean we count it as WP:RS. Final question: is the protection too much, too little, or just right? ] (]) 15:15, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Semi would probably work just fine unless there is a sock farm.--v/r - ]] 15:18, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Downgraded per your suggestion. ] (]) 15:22, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::If it's just one article, can't that particular URL be added to the Misplaced Pages external link blacklist? ] (]) 17:24, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::No need to blacklist it. It's not that it can't be used ever, it's that it can only be used in an appropriate context. As a ], it shouldn't ever be used to write in Misplaced Pages voice, for example. And it certainly shouldn't be used to cite itself as a municipal city council servicing media.--v/r - ]] 18:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== ] ==
	{{User|Juzumaru}} has some kind of anti-Korean 21st century political agenda (no need for diffs -- ] is consistent), and has been misrepresenting sources and messing up articles on subjects like classical Japanese poetry based on this agenda. I have tried contacting him on his talk page, and asked him to use article talk pages, but he has ignored me and kept reverting me, and tried to change the definition of the word ''toraijin''. He also cryptically requested (in Japanese, which he speaks more intelligibly than English) that I contact him on his talk page, despite his failure to acknowledge previous attempts.
	Ć
	I'm on a smart phone, so only one diff at a time.
	] (]) 15:41, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:'''UPDATE''' He has apparently on his talk page, asking me (in Japanese) for quotations from the sources I already cited. This is, as far as I know, not a requirement on Misplaced Pages, and is difficult as hell to do on a phone (my only Internet source at the moment). I also a quote would stop him, given how he has otherwise dismissed all the sources, and he keeps misrepresenting the meaning of a certain word, apparently assuming he's the only one on English Misplaced Pages who speaks Japanese, imagine what he could do with an entire block of text. ] (]) 16:01, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I've not looked at it all but Toraijin just means an immigrant to Japan, not specifically Korean. It can be used for all people who came to settle in Japan from overseas. ] ] 16:33, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I know, but the sources all specifically say Baekje. Juzumaru is dismissing all but one of my sources, and refusing to actually read that one source, instead judging it by its title. His edit summary in English also implies he is claiming the word specifically means someone NOT from Korea, which is wrong. ] (]) 16:46, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Note it appears that there is now a massive edit war going on over the Japanese invasion of Korea with mass changes and it looks like not a small amount of sockpuppetry. ] ] 16:40, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I don't know anything about that. I edit classical Japanese literature articles on the Kojiki and Manyoshu related topics. In fact, when it come to modern politics, I'm probably closer to "Juzumaru's side". ] (]) 16:46, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::The definition of the ja word 渡来/torai (人/jin means person) is . What's the problem? The next sentence on the ] article specifically says ''He is believed to have been one of the refugees from the Korean kingdom of ] (called ''Kudara'' in Japanese) who fled the Korean peninsula for Baekje's close ally Japan after their kingdom was invaded by ] ]''. ] <small>(])</small> 17:37, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::You are right. But think about it: why does Juzumaru want to go out of his way to remove the word "Korean" from the opening sentence? And why does he keep insisting that the word ''toraijin'' doesn't specifically mean Korean (something I never claimed)? The most obvious answer seems to be that he ''wants'' to remove reference to Korea, but his poor English skill led him to miss the second sentence's reference to Kudara. This is consistent with the far-right, fringe POV that has apparently informed ]. I am also increasingly troubled by the edit war CT above mentions. Can we get a mass CU on the SPAs in that dispute? (If I'm gonna talk about sockpuppetry, I should probably disclose that ], but when I try to edit from it on my phone I keep getting logged out and losing my edits.) ] (]) 03:36, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::The reason for this is written in genealogy dictionary of Japan.(]) Mainstream of the Traijin was the Chinese who lived in the Korean Peninsula. (foreign: 326 families; of those, 163 were from China, 104 from Baekje, 41 from Goguryeo, 9 from Silla, and 9 from Gaya.) I do not deny the possibility that Okura's ancestors came from the Korean Peninsula. However, reference cited is not certain his ethnicity. Therefore, scholars did not write "Okura is a Korean." --] (]) 14:41, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::They wrote this about the Yamanoue-Okura. If someone refute this opinion, he is far-right? <q>Yamanoue no Okura was a famous poet in eighth-century Japan, who immigrated from Korean Baekje. Influenced by the Madhyamika School of Buddhism growing out of his Former Baekje cultural heritage, he addressed social concerns through his poem, unlike other Japanese poets of the time, who spoke for the ethos of land, love, death and devine monarchy. He later became a tutor to the crown prince and Governor of a province in Japan. '''The reputation of Yamanoue no Okura has sharply risen in the twentieth century, he became, in the general consensus of sub-sequent centuries of Japanese literary scholarship, one of the most memorable, most influential, and today most often cited poets of the Old Japanese period.'''</q> <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:05, 25 December 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::::::Read the sources I cited, please. All of them state that he came (or possibly came) from the Korean state of Baekje. You haven't cited a single source that says otherwise. You clearly are not an expert in this area, so why the hell should the rest of us have to take your word on this? Anyway, you don't know "my POV" so stop ] by claiming my edits are rooted in some kind of pro-Korean, anti-Japanese POV (nothing could be further from the truth). ] (]) 15:00, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Frankly speaking, this IP user(182.249.240.xxx) is clueless in the Japan classic literature. And, "he came (or possibly came) from the Korean state of Baekje" is not written in the source. (Baekje is ruined in the 600 when Okura was born. ）182.249.240.xxx, You'll read ]. Your claim is not a common sense. I quote an article of Yamaue-no-Okura from a Japanese well-known encyclopedia.
	::::::* "Nihon Rekishi Jinbutsu Jiten" published by The ] <q>奈良時代の歌人。『万葉集』に,推定作を含む長歌11首,短歌60首余,旋頭歌1首,漢詩文3首を残す。また『類聚歌林』を編んだが,現存しない。大宝1(701)年遣唐少録に任ぜられる際に,「无位山於億良」と『続日本紀』にみえる...</q>
	::::::* ]<q>万葉歌人。701年(大宝1)遣唐少録，714年(和銅7)従五位下，716年(霊亀2)伯耆守，721年(養老5)東宮(のちの聖武天皇)の侍講となり，726年(神亀3)ころ筑前守赴任，732年(天平4)帰京して翌年卒したらしい。</q>
	::::::* "Dainihon Jinmei Jiten" (Dictionary of Japanese Biography) published by The ]<q>斉明天皇6年生まれ。大宝(たいほう)2年遣唐(けんとう)少録として唐(中国)にわたる。帰国後伯耆守(ほうきのかみ),東宮侍講をへて筑前守(ちくぜんのかみ)となり,大宰府で大伴旅人(おおともの-たびと)らとまじわった。</q>
	::::::* ] published by The ]<q>［660～733ころ］奈良前期の官人・歌人。大宝2年（702）渡唐し、帰国後、伯耆守(ほうきのかみ)・東宮侍講・筑前守を歴任。思想性・社会性をもつ歌を詠んだ。</q>
	::::::* ]<q>（660～733頃） 奈良前期の官人・歌人。遣唐少録として渡唐。帰国後伯耆守・東宮侍講・筑前守を歴任。筑前守時代に大伴旅人と親交。漢文学の学殖深く，その影響下に人生的・社会的題材の歌を詠んだ。万葉集に多くの歌を残す。家集「類聚歌林」は伝わらない。</q>
	::::::There is no famous encyclopedia of Japan written, "Okura is Korean". --] (]) 16:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{collapse top|title=Collapsed own response to Juzumaru. I can get a bit long-winded, can't I? ] (]) 14:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC) }}
	:::::::MyPedia, Britannica and the Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten articles on him all mention the toraijin theory. It's also worth noting that the theory's main proponent, Nakanishi Susumu, is near-universally acknowledged as the dean on Manyoshu studies in Japan (hence his being the president of the Manyo Culture Museum in Asuka). The essay of his that I have been citing all along not to mention every other 20th-century source cited in that article, discuss the toraijin theory in some detail. And the dictionary definition of ''toraijin'' is and always has been irrelevant, as all the source clearly mention Baekje. ] (]) 17:28, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Also, Juzumaru, who has never edited any other article in this area, has some gall claiming to know more about Japanese classical literature than I do when I have cited four independent specialist sources in the area, and all of his sources are general reference encyclopedias/dictionaries. ] (]) 17:33, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::All the sources Juzumaru cites above come from the online dictionary aggregator , but he cleverly neglected to mention the one that distinctly say 百済系渡来人説など諸説ある。 Clearly his scholarly knowledge of this topic comes entirely from a rudimentary Googling, because he refuses to actually go to the effort of checking the specialist sources I have already cited. ] (]) 17:51, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Also, no one is saying the article should say "Okura is Korean". It's possible Juzumaru's poor grasp of English led him to draw that conclusion. But we are,bound by ] to at least mention one of the most prominent theories (the most prominent theory?) of hid origins somewhere in the article. ] (]) 19:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Juzumaru's assertion that I wrote the article ] is ridiculous. Anyone can see that not only did I not write that article, but I am unable to edit it because editors like Juzumaru on one side and his Korean ultranationalist opponents on the other side have caused it to get semi-protected. Anyway, as for scholarly and encyclopedic sources that discuss the Okura Toraijin Theory, the ''Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten'' (1985) is the No. 1 encyclopedia on classical Japanese literature, and in its article on Okura, on pp. 94-96 of Vol. 6, contains a paragraph-length appendix discussing the theory, stating that it has a deal of explanatory power regarding his non-Japanese sounding name and his being given several positions that primarily went to people of foreign origin, but has seen criticism by historians, and some problems with the theory remain. ], honorary president of the ] and probably the best-known and most-respected scholar of the Man'yoshu in particular ''in the world'', has been the theory's primary supporter since the late 1960s, and defended the theory in essays specifically discussing it such as "Okura Kikajin Ron" (1969) and "Okura Toraijin Ron" (1977), as well as in his book ''Yamanoue no Okura'' (1973). Donald Keene's ''A History of Japanese Literature'' (1999 : 86, 139, 160 , 173 ) is the definitive history of Japanese classical literature in English, and he basically takes the theory as probable, and gives it plenty of coverage. Ian Hideo Levy produced the most recent scholarly translation of the Man'yoshu (1981), and also firmly accepts the theory (I already cited his 2010 lecture in the article). Juzumaru, despite perhaps being slightly closer to being a blood relative of the poet in question than Keene, Levy or myself, clearly has never done any deep research on this topic, and his first encounter with Okura occurred in when he he came across the English Misplaced Pages article on the topic as part of his campaign to remove all references to the ] (which his Japanese-language replies to me clearly indicate he has confused with modern ]) from articles on Japanese history.
	{{collapse bottom}}
	:::::::Someone please ] or ] Juzumaru per ]. ] (]) 10:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	After that bizarre final attack on me, the user apparently has decided to confine himself to ja.wiki. I have contacted him on his talk page there, and hopefully we have worked out our differences. I wanted him to stay off JLit articles in areas he clearly doesn't understand, and if he's staying off English Misplaced Pages altogether then I guesd that's solved. This thread can (probably) be closed now. ] (]) 14:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I've prepared the Talkpage to the Japanese version of Misplaced Pages for this anonymous user. And, he would be happy. --] (]) 02:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{od}} Someone should leave a message on Juzumaru's talk page advising them to edit the Japanese Misplaced Pages, because it's evident that they speak Japanese with more fluency than they do English. ] (]) 17:21, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{done}} -- <font style="padding:.15%5px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 17:27, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{comment|Request:}} An administrator needs to close this thread as a content dispute. No admin action is needed. <font style="padding:2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 03:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:This isn't a content dispute. I "won" the specific content dispute before posting here. The problem is that every single one of the user's edits demonstrate ]. Hence my contention that he should be TBANned from, say, Korea-related topics. I'd say if he was banned from ] he would stop editing Misplaced Pages entirely. ] (]) 03:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::{{nc|w/r/t the above dispute}}, but its discouraged to frame content disputes in terms of winning/losing, per ]. ''']<font color="darkgreen">]</font>''' 17:42, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Sorry. Quotes added. I'm not the one with the BATTLEGROUND mentality, anyway... ] (]) 04:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Antidiskriminator ==
	Can I get opinions on Antidiskriminator's conduct at the talkpage of the recently created ] article? I had opened an informal move suggestion section only to hear him tell me that I must file a formal WP:RM after a lengthy discussion and a third opinion was voiced agreeing on the suggestion. I could have been bold and moved it from the start as one can't speak of a formal RM discussion for the initial poorly worded title either, but I figured the right and proper thing to do was to hear his opinion and that of other interested editors on the matter first. I voiced my arguments and offered a compromise title to which a third user had stated it was a improvement over the one that Antidiskriminator preferred. By that time Antidiskriminator effectively suggested we pretend the informal move discussion did not occur and have us simply reiterate our prior arguments in a formal one. I pointed out that he had only done so only when a resemblance of consensus had come about and that it was simple ] on his part. I specifically pointed out that WP:RM states that "it is not always necessary to formally request a move in these circumstances: one option is to start an informal discussion at the article's talk page instead." I and other editors have had previous frustrations with his conduct in the past and as result I have limited patience given I know where the discussions may carry. My prior significant interaction with him was being involved in discussions that carried months on end thanks to his extraordinary effort to force his POV while I and a co-editor were attempting to promote a article to featured status. --<font face="xx-medium serif">◅ ]</font></font> <small>(])</small></font> 01:52, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:The article itself seems to have very carefully cherrypicked content, but I suppose we have to accept that as normal in the Balkans.
	:Back on topic, reliable sources tend to prefer language like "demonstrations" and "rioting" so it's rather frustrating that this article has been transformed into a "pogrom"; a pogrom is a massacre, and in reality, the events were not a massacre. Of course with the article's creator stonewalling, and an ally on hand who provides Antidiskriminator with unwavering support in each RM, it's unlikely that any ] towards a more neutral name would succeed. ] (]) 02:39, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I don't know, PRODUCER, the informal move discussion is really you and 1 other editor. An RM doesn't always attract more attention than that, but it's tough to argue that one isn't required here when there are only 3 participants. Some advertising on the RM by making a formal RM would actually help. Although now with Bobrayner commenting here, my comments might already be out of date.--v/r - ]] 02:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I'm not involved on this article, and I have little intention of getting involved, because I'm tired of spending hours trying to bring other Balkan history articles in line with sources only to see the edits automatically reverted by the same old editors. I wish PRODUCER the best of luck. ] (]) 02:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::User Bobrainer is a usual participant in Serb-related subjects who´s open purpose is to fight , so it is not a surprise his comment here which involves a historical article where Serbs were victims. It is already usual to see the same group of editors diminishing events that happend to Serbs, but in a similar reverse event pushing for a "Massacre" title. Regarding the issue here, the RM would have been appropriate just as TParis said. ] (]) 03:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Yes; I have stalkers, it goes with the territory and it was inevitable that somebody would turn up sooner or later and misrepresent one of my edits. I stand by that diff (I stand by what I actually said; it's true; I don't stand by what you just said here because that's not true), and if you want to raise the issue here, I can provide a dozen examples. Several of the recent ones involve you proxying for sanctioned editors, or just directly contradicting what sources say. However, I'd rather we stuck to the topic in this particular thread: ]. What do you think, FkpCascais?
	:::::Good folk of AN/I, I apologise; discussions in this area tend to get out of hand. ] (]) 07:31, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::I already said, a proper RM would seem correct, as there were only a few participants in that discussion, and a RM would certainly bring more partcipants thus making it possible for a consensus to be reached. (<small>P.S.: I didn´t stalked ''you'', by chance I noteced this thread even before anyone commented it, but once I saw you kind of winning clearly taking sides in this specific dispute, I needed to say that you are far from uninvolved in these matters as you presented yourself to be. Just that</small>.) ] (]) 08:13, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{hat|Not helpful--v/r - ]] 14:58, 25 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	::::::I also think that bringing this here seems more of an bad faith attempt to eliminate an opponent from a discussion, rather that creating consensus. But that has become kind of usual by now... Asking at ANI for a user conduct? Hmm... seems a polite way of saying "''I want this user to be blocked but I don´t have diffs for it.''.." ] (]) 08:18, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::And here we go with his buddies coming out of the woodwork. Where did I request any sort of block to "eliminate an opponent"? I'm sorry Fkp, but other editors don't share your incredibly simplified view of Misplaced Pages as a "battlefield" where people are to be "eliminated". Who is "diminishing events that happend to Serbs"? Is 23 editor, the third editor and a Serbian one might I add, complicit with me in this insidious anti-Serb plot? I mean really, your are in no position to lecture other editors. Only when the discussion shifted against the absurd status quo did Antidiskriminator say there ''must'' be a "formal" RM. There's a reason for that, he pulls out whatever stop he can possibly get his hand on, be it a policy or procedural grounds, and tries to enforce a selective sentence of it. That's just how he operates. --<font face="xx-medium serif">◅ ]</font></font> <small>(])</small></font> 10:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{hab}}		{{hab}}
			*'''Comment''' I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: ]. There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Just a quick note - tagging move discussions with ] will trigger bots to advertize the discussion on the Article alerts pages of all tagged WikiProjects. So, assuming all the relevant WPs are tagged, this would bring attention to the issue from members of the community much better than AN/I. It's probably annoying to have to say "please read <nowiki>]</nowiki> above", but it's not actually useless. --] (]) 08:28, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			::I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Joy, we are both aware of how requested moves typically go down here. Editors belonging to a particular ethnic/national "voting bloc" usually "stumble" (Fkp's little "notice by chance" above is a case in point) into the discussion and loyally vote their title regardless of what evidence or arguments are at hand. Antidiskriminator's insistence that there must be a formal RM came only after some headway was made. His "contesting" through an article move revert is supported by no one but himself though he is quick to claim my move is consensus deficient. Amusing really. --<font face="xx-medium serif">◅ ]</font></font> <small>(])</small></font> 16:26, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Trying to claim a ] or ] (although a better term would be all meat in this case) doesn't exactly encourage helpful discussion from Antidiskriminator or anyone else. <span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #003399;">]</span><span style="text-shadow:0em 0em 1em #FF8C00;">]</span> 17:25, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) ] (]) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Agreed. PRODUCER, I think the best approach right now is a full RM. Not because Antidiskriminator asked for one, but because there was really only 3 editors involved and a wider consensus would be helpful.--v/r - ]] 17:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' This is editor is still creating dog poor articles ]. This is the second in days thats been speedied. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::I stand by my observation given my time here, but I'll file the RM at your insistence. --<font face="xx-medium serif">◅ ]</font></font> <small>(])</small></font> 20:09, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. ] ] 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Me (DragonofBatley) ==
	:: I know what you're saying but the process can't really be optimized further. At the end of the day we depend on RM closing admins not to be clueless and ignore votes in favor of arguments. --] (]) 20:53, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save {{Ping|KJP1}} the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. ] (]) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] ==
			:Notifying other editors from the wider discussions {{Ping|PamD}}, {{Ping|Noswall59}}, {{Ping|Rupples}}, {{Ping|Crouch, Swale}}, {{Ping|KeithD}}, {{Ping|SchroCat}}, {{Ping|Tryptofish}}, {{Ping|Cremastra}} and {{Ping|Voice of Clam}}. If I missed anyone else sorry ] (]) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: ]. ]&nbsp;] 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of ], ], ] and now redirected ] and ]. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. ] (]) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. ] (]) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Also this discussion: ]. ] (]/]) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.
			:I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. ] is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, ''then'' we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.
			:I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to ] and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.
			:Happy editing, <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --] (]) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing ] (]) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@]: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? ] (]/]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? ] (]) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as ]. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. ] (]/]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? ] (]/]) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. ] (]) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. ] (]) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. ''']''' (]) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. ] (]) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::These are good points.
			:::However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI''-like'' thing may be in order. ], anyone? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course ] is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? ] (]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. ] (]/]) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break ] and ]. ] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add ] (]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{ec}} The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I think it's the latter. @]: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. ] (]/]) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. ] (]) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. ''']''' (]) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yeah, I agree to that. @] if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to ] but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? ] (]) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::] is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in ]. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely ]. ''']''' (]) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC ] (]) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? ]&nbsp;] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. ] (]) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? ]&nbsp;] 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? ] (]/]) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@]: while you're taking a breather as @] suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? ] (]/]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::], ], ] (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example ] and ]. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for ] and the ]. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. ] (]) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? ] (]/]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near ]. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the ] commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings ] (]) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- ] (]) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*DragonofBatley has agreed to a ] to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? ] (]/]) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --] (]) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? ] (]) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. ] (]/]) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. ''']''' (]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. ] (]/]) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --] (]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- ] (]) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::{{outdent|0}} Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. ] (]/]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --] (]) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? ] (]/]) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*@]: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? ] (]/]) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for ]. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. ] (]) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			* I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see '''any''' new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. ] (]/]) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::{{ec}} {{u|KJP1}} has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - ] (]) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you ]. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. ] (]) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the ]erifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? ] (]/]) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::{{ec}} Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - ] (]) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. ] (]) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). {{u|KJP1}} provided a for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - ] (]) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they ''understand'' source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. ]&nbsp;] 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements ''and'' that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - ] (]) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::That's a great point, you're right, @]. ]&nbsp;] 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::I responded to @] earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with ] ] and ]. Also conflict edit was not directed at @], there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. ] (]) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's ] was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from ] and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.
			*:::And also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. ]] 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{outdent}}
			The issues are ] and source integrity; ]; and the suggestion of ] while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.
			Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, ], which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises ] issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.
	This image was accidentally reduced to Fair use sizes, but is, in fact, PD-Text (the rationale everyone forgets about). Can someone please restore the full size?
			That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. ] (]) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	Thank you,
			:At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --] (]) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">''']''' <sup>(])</sup></span> 09:37, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. ] (]) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	: This is still copyrighted. Title pages are also "other protected type in sense of the local copyright law," according to ]. --] (]) 09:40, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	: Also, title pages may be eligible for British copyright. ] (]) 09:46, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::# No, that is completely wrong. None of the copyrightable music appears in the image. Commons' statements are not relevant: Commons works under international law, only American copyright law matters HERE. Please review ].
	::# Only American copyright applies on English Misplaced Pages. That may well be a reason not to move it to commons, but has no relevance to here. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em; class=texhtml">''']''' <sup>(])</sup></span> 09:48, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::: I don't get your "interpretation" on the guideline. It doesn't say that English Misplaced Pages must follow solely on the American law. ] (]) 19:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::] - Hope this helps. - '']'' 02:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC) ({{nao}})
			::I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on ] quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on ]. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ] feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. ] (]) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	*"Only American copyright applies on English Misplaced Pages" - I can't make this '''''NOPE''''' big enough. Misplaced Pages must respect '''both''' American copyright law '''and''' the copyright law of the country of origin. This is why there are some (perhaps even "many") cases where something is PD in the country of origin but is copyrighted in the United States and, thus, cannot be freely used here. - ] <sub><font color="maroon">]</font></sub> 04:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in ], ] and ]. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. ] (]) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Please see {{tl|Do not move to Commons}} and pages that use it, e.g. ]. We care about the PD-in-origin-but-not-USA cases because we're a USA-based organisation and could be liable for copyright infringement lawsuits for those cases. Unlike Commons, we don't care about PD-in-USA-but-not-origin cases by longstanding policy, and since we're not a UK-based organisation, we're not liable to copyright infringement lawsuits for those cases. Of course, if you're in the UK you might be liable to an individual lawsuit; that's why we've always been careful to remind non-Americans to follow their own laws, and when they find PD-in-USA-but-not-origin images from their own countries, to ask American editors to upload the images in question in order to avoid problems. ] (]) 06:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::::@]. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. ] (]) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@], the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. ] (]/]) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. ] (]) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @] or @]. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @] and @]'s earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. ] (]) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the ] and ] concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —] (]) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).
			:As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.
	== Deleted discussion ==
			:There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.
	Demetrioscz have deleted a discussion content. With this argument: remove personal comments about the article page. Those are claims of the book's author. Only discussions regarding how to improve the article should be present here. You can cite reliable 3rd party sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Cartwheels_in_a_Sari:_A_Memoir_of_Growing_Up_Cult&action=history --] (]) 17:17, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Demetrioscz is correct in his edit. The comments at the talk page are not related to the improvement of the article, but are someone's rebuttal to the content of the book. Please do not restore the commentary again. Additionally, you should read ]. You do not have the right to free speech on the Wikimedia project. ] (]) 17:27, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Only - of course Richard Reinhardt has freedom of speech on a Wikimedia project. The United States Government cannot come here and remove his comments! However, any Misplaced Pages editor could remove them and there is nothing he can do about it. =) --v/r - ]] 17:38, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::<small>Sure there is! He can file an ANI. :D - '']'' 02:11, 26 December 2013 (UTC) ({{nao}})</small>
			:Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.
	== James Lindberg ==
	{{archivetop|1=Originally blocked for one month by ]; extended to indefinite after ] came to light. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:49, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	This user is repeatedly removing sourced content. This are the most recent exemples: , . He was already warned numerous times by several editors, and he has been blocked for the exact same reason on same articles. Usually has been easier just to revert him without bothering to make a full complain here, but it has been a bit enough of same old story with this user again and again. Basically, he removed everything regarding the historical periods and all reference to Yugoslavia, pretending as if Macedonia was allways independent, so we are dealing here with tendentious nationalistic editing. ] (]) 17:43, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:The same user also re-created article "]" that was previously speedy deleted. It was deleted as redundant to ]. But, in this new article, he counts all Eurovision entrants from Yugoslavia from 1961 to 1992 as Macedonian, although they all represented Yugoslavia and none of them was from Macedonia. ] (]) 20:32, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Yes, so typical. He did a similar thing some time ago with ]. When his edits were reverted (not just by me, one can see that article history page) he just made a new article just changing one capital letter in the title. I´ll try to find a link. His edits allwys go about ignoring the Yugoslav period and pretending Macedonia was independent all the time. He also often edits as IP. ] (]) 21:10, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			:For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, <b>this needs to be a final warning</b> in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -] (]) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Oh, come on, the guy did it again... can´t beleave no one gives a f*** here... ] (]) 20:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:OK, he was indef blocked... finally... This thread can be closed. ] (]) 20:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)		::Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? ] (]/]) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —] (]) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
	::{{nonadmin}} FkpCascais, you have to ]. I'm not an admin, but I can still tell you that there are literally ''hundreds'' of issues that admins have to deal with around here. Anyway, I was going to NAC close this, but considering , I wonder if any admin would consider removing James' talkpage, user page, etc per ]. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 03:51, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Thanks Erpert for your input. Yes, he made serious personal threats. Jingby, me and some other users have been dealing with him and his attitude for long time. ] (]) 14:19, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at ].) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, ]. {{U|PamD}} stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular {{U|Crouch, Swale}}. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point ] has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)
	== ] and copyright infringement ==
			* Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: '] is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with : he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
			* Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content calling it "irrelevant". At ], PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article ], , cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, ], the entire Architecture section was . However, their church articles always contain something like {{tq|The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.}} sourced to ''achurchnearyou.com'', often as a separate "Present day" section. of ] (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: {{tq|All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.}} (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing ] and ], both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.)
			* Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as , was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
			* Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.
			There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note {{U|Liz}} has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that ] instance (at the end of , which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. ] (]) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Settai3 was warned about uploading several copyrighted images yesterday. Despite this, the user has continued to upload a number of images, sometimes even replacing fair use images for new copyrighted ones.] (]) 18:13, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:The uploads are happening over at the Commons, not here. I have put a (second) final warning on their Commons talk page and will post something on their talk page on this wiki as well. I have also posted at the Commons admin notice board. -- ] (]) 18:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)		:All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. ] (]/]) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'd like to point to ]: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. ] (]) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).
			::I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at ] and ], and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: ].
			::I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.
			::Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for ], which is also the example of a lead in ], starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{tl|cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.
			::Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.
			::The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, ] (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).
			::It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.
			::Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. ]] 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --] (]) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work ===
	== Unblock request at Ante Vranković ==
			I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. ] (]/]) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	: '''''NOTE''' relevant archived thread: ] -- ] (]) 00:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)''
			:I've got some experience of ] investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. ] (]) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	: {{userlinks|Ante Vranković}}
			::I am an interested editor. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --] (]) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. ]] 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/] in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --] (]) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —] (]) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
			::::::::To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @] has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. ] (]) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the ]. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. ] (]) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks ] (]) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? ]] 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there ] (]) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{outdent}}
			{{U|voorts}} - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. ] (]) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. ''Sound of evil laughter.'') --] (]) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:How's this draft proposal: {{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace<ins>, converting redirects to articles,</ins> or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects.
			::Having seen on ] yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing.
			::And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. ]] 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. ] (]/]) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. ] (]) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - ] (]) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: an infobox? a few words about local authority area? a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. ]] 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to ], never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. ]] 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thanks for the question ]. To clarify, I meant '''any''' expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing ''anywhere'' on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - ] (]) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " ]] 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --] (]) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Okay, looks good. @] what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::{{U|Cremastra}} - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. ] (]) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Hold on. This goes much further than @] wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? ] (]) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at ]. I've lost patience. ]] 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:
			:::::::::::::# No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects
			:::::::::::::# No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?)
			:::::::::::::# No editing in mainspace.
			:::::::::::::]] 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.{{pb}}{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):{{pb}}
			::'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.
			::'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded.
			::'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.
			:{{pb}}The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but '''would personally favour Option B'''. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into ], a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. ] (]) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@]: I made some changes. ] (]/]) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. ] (]) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::p.s. ] this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. ] (]) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? ] (]) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. ] (]) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I agree. ] (]) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@] and @]: option C amended below. ] (]/]) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? ]] 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. ] (]/]) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s) ===
	Can another administrator please step in and consider the latest unblock request at ]? I think we're getting a little combative there, and it would be good for another administrator to step in and make a decision or add an outside view sooner rather than later. ] (]) 18:14, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{cot|Proposal jumped the gun, no consensus.}}
	:{{nonadmin}} If he ''is'' re-blocked, I suggest revoking his talk page access too. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 20:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):
	::A penchant for lawyering, invoking the Foundation, arguing semantics, general combativeness, and all this with only 23 edits. I don't see why this user needs to be unblocked. -- ] 22:12, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	::]. ] (]) 22:26, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::well, he was unblocked by TParis, so we'll have to keep an eye on him now as he edits. None so far outside the talk page. ] (]) 22:43, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::: Seriously, take him at his latest offer: "if it will make you feel better, you are free to completely block my account now, so that I won`t be able to put out the obvious facts about the case (this is my official statement/agreement on that)." This editor is up to no good. His threat is still hanging in the background. While we can let him know that the Foundation has no power to prevent him from pursuing legal action outside of Misplaced Pages, we cannot allow anyone to edit who would even dream of doing it. Period. The very thought of doing so must be expunged from their mentality, and that seems to be out of the question with this editor. They totally assume bad faith about everyone who disagrees with them, calling them liars, and they are therefore unfit to be here. So, an indef ban and lock the talk page, and don't follow their suggestion to "unblock my account now or delete it as it never eXisted." No, we keep the account open for the record for all editors to see. We can blank the page, but not delete the history. -- ] (]) 01:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	* No "other administrator with an outside view" is needed here. If ] blocked him, then it was probably for a good reason. TP usually knows what he's doing, and doesn't need a back-seat/Monday morning admin stepping in. - '']'' 02:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC) ({{nao}})
	:*I'm not quite sure you understand the situation here. The user was seeking unblock which TParis eventually granted a few hours after I posted this thread. ] (]) 02:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::*Oops, got that backward. But, hey, if TP unblocked him, I'm sure ''that'' was for a good reason too. Now we'll just see what happens... - '']'' 03:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::* Subsequent comments by Ante indicate a need for an indef. -- ] (]) 05:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::I disagree. This is just his talk page. He is a little upset and there is a language barrier issue. Give him a chance to cool down and see what he does. - '']'' 06:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Agree with Wolfchild. Blocking is generally not an urgent matter when all that's happening is talk. While I had suggested in the previous thread that consideration be given to not unblocking even in light of a retraction, TParis should be given deference with respect to that decision. Sounding angry or combative is, while a bad sign, not on its own grounds for blocking, especially in light of the recent unblock. Tempers are running high. We should be cool. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 07:35, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.
	== Persistent vandalism of a BLP ==
			:'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to oppose a PROD.
	{{archivetop|Page has been protected. Future incidents referred to ]. - '']'' 04:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC) }}
			:'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except: (1) to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded; (2) to comment in AfD discussions or to oppose PRODs or CSDs regarding those articles; or (3) to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.
	An IP editor has been repeatedly adding content in violation of the BLP policy to the page of ] (see page history ). Looks like the editor has already received a few warnings, but refuses to get the point. (Also, I'm not convinced this guy is notable enough to merit a Misplaced Pages article, but that's a less urgent problem). ] 19:36, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	: There's actually been more than one IP adding this content, so I have used semi-protection rather than a block. Please post at ] if the problem resumes when the protection wears off ( 2 wks ) -- ] (]) 20:03, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Proposal for interaction ban or 1RR restriction between Pass a Method and StAnselm ==
			==== Uninvolved editors ====
	{{user|StAnselm}} and {{user|Pass a Method}} seem to be locked in edit wars at {{la|Lot (biblical person)}}, {{la|Tree of life (biblical)}}, {{la|Garden of Eden}} and {{la|Christianity}}. Other than blocking them both I can't think of any other alternative than some form of interaction ban. ] (]) 21:41, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose all'''. I would have voted '''Option B''', but the user demonstated enough maturity and self-criticism, meaning he's willing to improve his long-term contribution. Moreover, even if it could have been embarrassing to admit, he also cared enough to inform us he's on the ], and as a ] myself, I know that's hard. My two cents go to {{u|DragonofBatley}}. You're welcome! ] (]&nbsp;<b>·</b> ]) 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	* An interaction ban would probably make things worse. Since they both edit in the same area, that would be equivalent to saying that the first of them to make an edit to an article can't be reverted, or indeed that the other editor couldn't ''ever'' edit that article. Some sort of 1RR restriction would probably be better. Or alternatively blocking them both for a while wouldn't be unreasonable - they're both gaming 3RR on all of those articles (I think StAnselm has even broken it on Tree of Life). ] (]) 21:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:*I didn't think I had, but I think that's because I was assuming move reversions didn't count. Anyway, I made two reverts, and one edit seeking a compromise solution. Obviously, I realise that edit-warring is not necessarily breaking 3RR, but I just wanted to clarify this. ]] (]) 22:44, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' per Black Kite and also because my own observation is that StAnselm does yeoman's work in Biblical areas while Pass a Method's involvement is generally disruptive and POV-ish. ] (]) 21:58, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Protect articles''' Curiously enough, I find that StAnselm's efforts are POVish and he's prone to edit-warring (as shown above). This calls for protecting the articles from non-admin edits to force them to discuss rather than revert. ] (]) 22:01, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support 1RR restriction'''. I prefer a 1 revert-rule restriction between myself and StAnselm, but alternatively would be fine with a interaction ban. It is frustrating when you've spent two to three hours gathering sources and then somebody reverts you with a vague or non-applicable edit summary. It would also be helpful when i'm in the midst of work-in-progress; my edits usually take between an hour or so in between them, but stanselm sometimes judges me by my first incomplete edit. If i was allowed time to include my unfinished draft which included ] scripture and the Book of Mormon, the setence would make sense. ] ] 22:06, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:*There is a ] function that can prevent this, as well as using a ]. -- ] 00:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' - there is more going on between the two of us than just the resurrection of these old edit wars, of course. Pass a Method and I have had a lot of interaction lately. I thought things were improving after exchange on my talk page, but since then Pass a Method has accused me of and then on Jimbo Wales' talk page, which to all appearances was accusing me of racism. ]] (]) 22:50, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:: I had another editor in mind, not you. ] ] 22:52, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Hence my "to all appearances". But you talk page post came immediately after on my talk page and after a string of edits to ], ], and their respective talk pages. That certainly makes it look suspicious. ]] (]) 22:58, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::: I have interacted with dozens of editors over the past two weeks. ] ] 23:08, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	* '''Support 1RR interaction restriction''' per Pass a Method, I've not seen Pass a Method doing POV questionable edits but they certainly may have. I cannot say the same for the other editor, and across a variety of subjects that all seem to lie in contentious areas related to conservatism. That they are both overall improving things is of course debatable, but minimizing the back and forth on articles is probably best. ] (]) 23:04, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose interaction ban''' / '''Support 1RR restriction''' - I requested page protection for ] and saw some edit warring on a couple of other articles on my watchlist. These two editors approach religious/spiritual topics from completely different points of view. I think an interaction ban would unfairly penalize one party in favor of the other, but a 1RR restriction on articles that they both edit would force discussion sooner and avoid edit wars.- ]] 23:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
			*'''Proposal''': Could we maybe allow DoB to continue editing mainspace if, and only if, any additions/edits they make are supported by a reference, to which the quote that supports the edit must be added. That will make it easier for us to double check their work and allow DoB to refine their skills in supporting their edits.] (]) 10:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''Support indefinite blocks of both with no TP/email access and indefinite full protection of ALL affected articles:''' I don't even think a mutual 1RR restriction goes far enough in this case. --] (]) 01:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::<small>- "''Kill'em all, and let God sort'em out''"...? That's a little over the top. I'm sure 1RR, plus 24hr. block for any over-3RR's will suffice. - '']'' 02:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC) ({{nao}})</small>
	: Nukes for Xmas, huh? ] (]) 01:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Why yes.... '''''I MEAN NO...''''' - ] (]) 09:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Support fresh trout for Bigpoliticsfan for dramatizing things further. ] (]) 03:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Oppose trouting In ictu oculi for failing to understand irony. ;) ] (]) 03:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Unfortunately it's not, I searched the ANI archive box to see Bigpoliticsfan's previous appearances at ANI for context, confirmed that it isn't irony below. Rather odd comments for a new editor. Anyway, ] the issue is whether should be reverted or not. St Anselm is reverting repeated additions of an editor who refuses to listen or stop - making reversions that you or I or any other responsible WP Religion editor should have been making with St Anselm. ] (]) 06:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	* I don't have the time or inclination to investigate this, but my canned suggestion is as follows: if this is a dispute about the same topic spread across multiple articles, then a RfC should be started on one page and pointers left on the others. If these two are edit warring about different topics, then blocks of both are probably justified, unless there is (going to be) consensus here that one's edits were way outside policies, in which case a single-sided block would be ok. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> 01:46, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			==== Involved editors ====
	*'''Oppose interaction ban''' - the WikiProject Religion / WikiProject Christianity editor pool has been decimated over the last 5 years to the point where there are barely enough competent editors to keep out the tidal wave of internet fringe. History2007 quitting and John Carter having admin tools removed for (in my view) opposing fringe and then retiring. This inevitably means that the small number of editors capable of keeping the large article stock free of fringe is going to be more prone to 3RRs. I'm referring positively to StAnselm. ] (]) 03:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:{{ping|KJP1|Cremastra|Rupples|PamD|DragonofBatley|Crouch, Swale|SchroCat|Tryptofish|Noswall59|p=.}} (Apologies if I missed anyone.) ] (]/]) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	::On closer look ], from what I can see User:Pass a Method has (a) been attempting to add Islamic weight to leads of Bible articles which are generally weighted as Jewish/Christian in English sources. That may or may not be justifiable but before radical changes discussion should at WP Judaism, WP Christianity, WP Islam noticeboards. (b) Pass a Method has been making undiscussed moves of Bible figures from (biblical person) to (Abrahamic person) which again may or may not be justifiable but before radical changes discussion should at WP Judaism, WP Christianity, WP Islam noticeboards. I haven't looked in great detail beyond the immediate edits but in every case where St Anselm has reverted these edits if History2007 John Carter were still around I think it would be 3 editors reverting not 3RR. ] (]) 03:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' option A as proposed for 6 months. I think its quite clear that that is needed given as noted the burden this might have on AFC but I'm willing to consider allowing some AFC say 1 article a week but I think it might be better to wait until the cleanup has been done the they have demonstrated the ability to create suitable articles. I would say it would be fine for DragonofBatley to ask KJP1 or Cremastra or another experienced user (if they explain their restrictions) to move drafts they have created to mainspace but I would not suggest they do that until the cleanup has been completed. I would also '''support''' option B I would consider allowing an appeal of only 2 or 3 months as this restriction is much more restrictive but I think given as noted by PamD their problems with editing existing articles this might well be helpful especially since if they can't create new articles I'd expect a shift towards the problems with existing articles. '''Oppose''' option C as (1) I'm not aware of problems outside mainspace and (2) I think in any case this would be too restrictive at least for 6 months, if C is done I'd at least support allowing appeal after 2 or 3 months. So in summary I think option B plus 1 article through AFC every week or every other week would be the best option but I don't have a strong opinion. ''']''' (]) 19:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: The wide variety of transliterations of the word "quran" means that google search returns are not always sufficiently indicative of weight, i.e. quran, koran, qur'an, alkoran, coran, alquran, qoran, Qur'ân, Qur'ān, Qurʾān, Ḳurʾān etc. ] ] 04:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose all''', as written. Sorry, this has changed from what I could support. First, in the draft version that I suggested, I had the word "successfully" in the sentence that mentions KJP1 and Cremastra: "only if DragonofBatley successfully participates...". That's important. The coordinators will need to evaluate whether or not he "got the message", not just whether he made some token effort, and their evaluation needs to have a meaningful role in the consideration of an appeal. I definitely cannot support A, because I think his mainspace editing needs to be restricted to fixing his mistakes. Anything less does not comport with the facts as we have them. As for B and C, I agree with participation in AfD, but that's in project space, not mainspace. I think objecting to PRODs or CSDs is not worth allowing. C comes closest to how I feel, but I don't feel that we need to make formal restrictions of his editing outside of mainspace. He should be able to communicate on his talk page and user page, without being restricted, and he should probably be able to comment on talk pages of articles. --] (]) 23:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::'''Response - 1RR on Pass a Method only''' - it's evident from that reply that Pass a Method doesn't understand that his edits are at the very least controversial, if not disruptive.
			*'''C''' if anything. (Again, wasn't pinged, but I have been a bit involved.) DragonofBatley keeps demonstrating borderline lack of competence. Most recently inserting one of his collages into an FA (I'd forgotten he also added collages) and getting the captions wrong. The clarity and correctness of the posting here is also at or below the standard we should expect for a participant in a writing project: {{tq| If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree.}} I don't trust their judgement on what is an improvement to an article; and how far should we stretch to try to accommodate someone who needs so many curbs and guiderails? I deeply appreciate the willingness of other editors to help them with the task of cleaning up their articles (as well as all the time and effort some editors have already expended trying to advise and help them); I recognise that there are legitimately differing views on some of what they like to do, such as the collages; but I'd rather see them restricted to their user talk and user space, workshopping the article fixes there. (Note: Several of the 400 or so articles have already been fixed, like the churches I worked on. The task is less massive than it may seem.) ] (]) 03:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Sportsfan and others, has anyone actually looked at the sort of edits StAnselm is reverting and Pass a Method is pushing back? Isn't this WP:OR as well as WP:POV? Is the Garden of Eden is described most notably in '''the Quran''' before the ]? Is there anybody on this section who wouldn't revert this edit?
			*'''Prefer''' the less stringent '''option A''' because I’d like to see self-motivation from DragonofBatley to assist with the clean-up. OK with adding "successfully" to the option. It is disappointing that Dragon has recently made errors on ], all the more so it being a featured article, and it did lead me to consider supporting a ‘tougher’ restriction. Whatever is decided, it would be unreasonable for Dragon to be bombarded with too many queries over a short space of time; in particular, AfD nominations should be staggered. Dragon’s articles are on encyclopedic topics; though it looks a fair few will be merged or redirected because of marginal notability. After a very brief review, it seems the use of erroneous citations is mostly a recent phenomenon (last three months or so). Note the increased pace of Dragon’s article creation from September 2024. ] (]) 12:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::: If you read it that way, yes, but if you rememeber that other scriptures mention the Garden of Eden such as ] or ] , or ] , or ] then no. Out of those 6 books, it is most notable in genesis and the Quran and i stand by that. ] ] 04:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:That's interesting, even though they have been using this account since March 2020 over half of their articles are less than 6 months old, I'd consider only reviewing those less than 6 months old (at least for now) as those older have likely been improved but I guess there's no harm and might well be best. ''']''' (]) 19:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::It doesn't take long to see that StAnselm apparently disapproves of a variety of "blue state" ideals, and edits to remove things they don't like, even if true and referenced, in any way possible. On Misplaced Pages this is rather easy and unless someone actually stops them they simply continue on degrading content and articles based on their ideology. I don't see that pattern with Pass a Method, instead I see a more broadening of subject matter to encompass more viewpoints, at least widely respected ones. Often backed up with sourcing. Then StAnselm counteracts to remove more content. This is exactly opposite their trajectory on subjects for which they approve. I suppose the same could be said of many editors but that is what I see. In summary I trust Pass A Method's editing. ] (]) 04:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:"Oppose further restrictions such as editing articles, workspace and general edits". I have no issues with proposals but I would oppose being restricted from making general edits such as updating infoboxs like I did with ] and ]. I updated them with photos and infoboxs. Yeah I made a couple of questionable edits on Holme Lacy but that article needed some updating since it was slightly written with some questionable wording like it calling Holme Lacy a town which it never has been but flew under editors radars for decades. I also added new collages to spruce up the infoboxs a bit. Especially with some of tw towns in Telford and boroughs of Greater Manchester. Also just because an article in 2008 got FA status doesn't make it protected from edits. I added a collage, hardly a throw away from my edits back on Skegness. Where I challenged old information from an old census database. I have agreed already about the articles and to look at my created ones. I even added a couple of sources to Hollyhurst, Telford and participated in its nomation. So i am taking note but I also have other things going on. So my edits or acknowledging of them maybe a bit later than others. ] (]) 03:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::I'd like out point out a couple of things that I have posted on my user page. The first is that I live in Australia. So while I am familiar with the term "blue state", I do not belong on the U.S. political spectrum. (I mention this also because Pass a Method me of Anglo-American bias. I am not "Anglo-" either.) The second thing about me that I have posted on my user page is that, yes - I am a Christian. Now, obviously I understand the issues of neutrality and systemic bias as they pertain to Misplaced Pages. I try as much as possible to be neutral and objective in my edits. Interestingly, though, most of the articles under dispute are particularly ] topics. From my perspective, from Pass a Method is somewhat akin to me editing the article so that the lead sentence says "The '''tree of life'''... is a term used in {{bibleref|Revelation|22:1-2|NIV}} and the ]..." That, indeed, would be a POV edit. ]] (]) 05:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*::It concerns me greatly that while there is a discussion about your future at ANI you are still making a large number of very questionable edits. I still have half a mind to say this is too much trouble and go for a block, but as you’re ignoring ], I’m not sure that point won’t be too far off. - ] (]) 03:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	：：：：：：：：Sportsfan5000, I have no idea what "blue state" means, nor does it help me to identify any good edits in Pass a Method's contrib history. To get a benchmark, do you consider a good/keepable or bad/revertable edit? ] (]) 06:07, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*::::@] at this point. I can see you do not like me. I can see this from both your wording of "sub-standard crap" and "go for a ban". Some choice wording and actions. I've already answered enough but your clearly made up your mind. Nothing else will convince you. Perhaps you should not engage further with me at this point. Cause nothing I say or do seems to provide enough evidence to quell your subtle dislike of me. Prehaps you should just let the other editors handle it. Im not gonna apologise further and try to change your opinion of me. I wont reply further to you at this point. Your wording is coming across as aggressive and threating to me. ] (]) 18:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Oculi, who said that edit was complete? I was reverted within 10 minutes of making that edit. I was planning to put it into context by adding Book of Mormon, ] mentions too. If you had read my first post you would have known that. ] ] 06:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:::::Absolute nonsense. I neither like nor dislike you. I have major concerns over your ability to edit and I stand by my judgement of your output. I have further concerns over your decision to create category pages and work on categories while the thread was going on rather than start clearing up the mess you’ve made. All you’ve done is provide more evidence that you lack the ability to edit within the guidelines. Again, this is nothing to do with liking or not liking you as an individual (I’m entirely ambivalent about you) but it is about your output and the additional time and effort you are making others go through to tidy up the mess you’ve made. ] (]) 18:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: And this makes me wonder - why didn't you say that on the talk page? Why didn't you start a discussion? Surely doesn't count as discussing. So why didn't you follow ]? You have all these great facts about the Quran - why didn't you post them on the article talk page(s) instead of re-reverting? ]] (]) 07:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:::::::Okay thanks for clarification. I understand your position better now. ] (]) 18:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Well perhaps they were in process of improving the article and didn't realize they would have to negotiate every step of the way, even if ultimately their edits would work just fine for all concerned. People do get tired of having to battle just to improve articles. ] (]) 07:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{cob}}
	:::::Pass a Method should have known it from (where, I should point out, he made four edits, and I only reverted one of them) and had almost a month to draft some suitable text. ]] (]) 08:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			==== Discussion ====
	:::::: I already had collected references for ] scriptures, yet after you revision my draft would no longer make as much sense. ] ] 16:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* I think I would be happier if:
	*'''Comment''' I have no suggestions for what a solution ''should'' be, but what it ''shouldn't'' be is a double indefinite block; I can't imagine any situation in which Bigpoliticsfan's suggestion would be appropriate. A quick glance at SA's talk and PAM's talk shows plenty of comments from PAM on SA's talk, many of which are rather strongly worded and seemingly hostile, while there's only one comparable note from SA on PAM's talk. For examples of what I mean, see 23:26, 24 December 2013 (SA to PAM) and 05:42, 13 November 2013, 05:32, 10 December 2013 and the comment above it, 23:48, 22 December 2013, and 00:06, 23 December 2013 (PAM to SA). It definitely seems as if PAM's assuming bad faith more readily than SA, and the diffs that SA gives (, 02:27, 23 December 2013) seem to back up his statements, while the diffs that PAM gives (, 05:42, 13 November 2013) don't appear to be grounded in reality. Their talk page interactions are definitely not equally problematic. ] (]) 03:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			# there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400).
	*'''Comment''': This calls for the '''WWJLP''' solution. '''WWJLP''' stands for '''What would Jean-Luc Picard do?''' Picard would recommend that both editors work this out with an independent mediator selected by and amenable to both parties and agree to abide by their decision. The deliberation should consist of brief statements from both parties, followed by questions from the mediator, and two closing statements in response to those questions. This should take no more than a few days to a week. Engage. ] (]) 05:23, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			# I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "{{tq|This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}.}}" This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB '''prove''' to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - ] (]) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::], I am pretty confident that Jean Luc-Picard would ? If not, why not? ] (]) 06:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I don't see why we need to restrict userspace editing. This would allow them to create pages that would help show that they can create suitable articles. If there are later problems then it can be added but otherwise poor quality drafts in userspace are generally harmless. Is there evidence of problems here? ''']''' (]) 19:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: Like I said above, that was not my full edit. I was reverted in 10 minutes in the midts of work-in-progress. ] ] 06:23, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			::Because at the moment there are at least a couple of hundred articles that are sub-standard crap and getting him to focus on cleaning those up is important (rather than leave them for everyone else to tidy up while yet more rubbish is churned out in userspace). A temporary hold on article creation in userspace is no great loss to them and will save a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted. - ] (]) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::The ] would prevent him from interfering. ] (]) 06:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See ]. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). ]] 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Which shows the difference between a Misplaced Pages editor seeing someone insert Garden of Eden notable in '''the Quran''' and Genesis and reverting it and being on a starship. It's seems to be that some editors here don't understand the point of reverting edits. The Misplaced Pages religion articles are fringe and POV magnets, the Jesus article for example bleeps daily with editors reverting most of the edits made to it, and the main activity is simply preserving the article. The Bible articles where Pass a Method is making edits such as placing the Quran ahead of the Bible in the lead are typical of religion articles which have been long stable, finished and where new material is almost always bad. This is an example. ] (]) 06:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* {{ping|KJP1|Cremastra}} Another element for the cleanup project: where an article has been created at a disambiguated title, it should be added to the relevant dab page (or a hatnote made from base title). Dragon hasn't been in the habit of doing so.| <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">{{snd}}Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
	:::::No, it's about textual neutrality itself, not about being neutral on a starship. If you want to change the behavior here, then it's best to address both sides with a neutral mediator approved by both. As for the content itself, I think you will find a multitude of interpretations. I, for one, would bump up its legendary origins and role in mythological literature and downplay its importance in religion. After all, it is ''not'' as important as other religious issues on the table, and I don't personally believe that any religious narrative should dominate or supersede the comparative literature approach. And yet, we see this religious bias throughout Misplaced Pages, an encyclopedic work that should remain neutral in regards to scriptural interpretations. The ] narrative is not unique to any one religion as the ] and ] sections show. Funny how both sides ignore that fact. From where I stand, this a ] and should be treated primarily as such. I'm sure you will disagree, hence the need for a neutral mediator that both parties will respect. ] (]) 06:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* I'd be happier if everyone would wait to get all of these details worked out, '''before''' posting and !voting on new proposals. At this rate, we are chasing our tails, with new proposals coming out as soon as someone objects to something, and then there's an objection to the objection. This is frustrating, and not getting us anywhere. And instead of !voting on how stringent the restrictions need to be, let's try to get consensus on how stringent they need to be.
	::::::Amen! ] (]) 07:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Some editors are still saying that we can be fairly loose with how Dragon can edit in mainspace. Personally, I feel like all the evidence I've seen points against that, and I hope that those editors will come around to changing their minds. We have a ton of evidence of edits that cause harm in mainspace, in our reader-facing content, and it's more important, I think, to get that under control, than to hope for the best based on Dragon's enthusiasm for editing. Anyone who disagrees with that, please provide evidence to support your view.
	::::: Yes but when you compare Genesis and the Quran to the other scriptures out there mentioning the garden of eden - then it WOULD make sense, wouldn't it? ] ] 06:47, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I also see some arguments that it is, supposedly, unfair to have too many AfDs going at one time. I'm not buying that. We cannot restrict other editors from filing more AfDs. If there's a community ''consensus'' to delete, then that should be that. Again, what stays in mainspace, or doesn't, matters more than giving some special consideration that would outweigh consensus.
	*'''Comment''': I forgot to mention this before, but in the interests of full disclosure, there is a ] concerning Pass a Method, to which I ]. ]] (]) 05:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I think it's getting clear that we also need to restrict him from editing category space, and that the supervised cleanup needs to be deemed "successful". As for userspace, I agree with restricting against new content creation in userspace (essentially: no userspace drafts, as well as no AfC drafts), but I think other uses of userspace, including user talk, and using the space as a sort of scratchpad for the supervised cleanup, should be permitted. --] (]) 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	**'''Comment''' StAnselm, so you're not gonna comment on whether you support an interaction ban or 1RR restriction between us? ] ] 05:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* The user demonstated enough maturity and will to take criticism and improve. Yes, him being neurodivergent makes that harder to accomplish, but he just wants to contribute; stop killing his enthusiasm and help him improve instead. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	***I had been holding off to see what explanation you would give for your conduct, but in light of the anti-conservative bias you explicitly articulate, and in light of these edits indicating either a refusal to discuss issues on talk pages, or else an incompetence in doing so, I would '''support a topic ban for Pass a Method on all religious articles'''. ]] (]) 04:17, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – ] and ] also apply here. --] (]) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Comment'''As I started this I'm being bold and changing my section heading to include a 1RR restriction, which I see as a much better solution. I'm trouting myself (virtually) for not thinking about it first. ] is right, and if I hadn't gone to bed I would have revised this then. I'd warned ] over ] where his 4th revert was just minutes outside 24 hours, didn't notice ] where he hit 4RR within 24 hours but by changing the order of words. I wouldn't want either to be blocked over this. ] (]) 06:17, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*::{{re|Tryptofish}} I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the ]. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance).{{snd}}] (]&nbsp;<b>·</b> ]) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Support 1RR restriction. ] (]) 06:17, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:::Thanks for those very constructive thoughts. I appreciate what you are saying. I know KJP1 very well, and I have high confidence in both him and Cremastra to provide exactly the kind of guidance you recommend. --] (]) 00:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: Dougweller, from my perspective, the ] is the only book in the world where millions of people have memorized chapters of it off the top of their head word for word. Plus I also know that the garden of eden is among the first stories told in the quran in sura ], plus it is repeated in many other quranic chapters. Hence its notability/weight to me is obvious without even necessarily doing a ] search return count. ] ] 06:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:::@] He's had quite a lot of both time and guidance already. ]] 10:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::See ]. As easy as it is to argue by the numbers or by authority, or by the majority, it is just as easy to argue that the textual roots of the Babylonian religion are older and are closer to the original text. ] (]) 07:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* I'd agree the debate is getting a bit lost in the weeds. Are there not basically two views? I think there is agreement that we don't currently want new articles being created, either directly or through AfC, until clear evidence of improvement, gained through engagement in reviewing the 400+ already created, is presented at appeal. Some think that is sufficient, and editing in mainspace should otherwise be permitted, while others favour limiting editing in mainspace to the 400+, and to any related discussions, with others editors involved in clean-up/at AfD/etc. If that is the main point of difference, my suggestion would be that we err on the side of leniency and allow other editing in mainspace. If that proves problematic, we can always come back here. I think there is great benefit in reaching agreement, and enabling Cremastra, myself and others to begin working with DragonofBatley on reviewing the 400+. That will enable them to demonstrate their commitment, give solid evidence as to their ability to learn and to improve their editing, and clean-up the articles for the benefit of readers. ] (]) 07:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			**That’s a good summary of how I see things too. If leniency is the path, I think we’ll be back here soon. Recent editing while this thread has been going on shows a lot of new problems being created but no progress on the clean up. I think we’re likely to see as many problems being created as are being sorted, but I’ll bow to the consensus if it goes that way. ] (]) 07:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::@], I have started to engage with your sandbox you tagged me. I can see some already noted and some already seeing afd afm and redirect. I think you'd be better off tagging me more for articles needing a clean up desperately than ones being afd and confirmed as notable. Ill engage with that sandbox as its on my Watchlist and make necessary changes where needed. Not off a whim since your going back to the start of my time on this site. It'll offload my workload and help with afd and afm to discuss deletion or merging. ] (]) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too ] for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. ] (]) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. ] (]) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I, too, would like to move this towards a decision. It seems to me that the sticking point is over differing views about whether DoB should be placed under strict restrictions about editing, in order to control a history of negative effects upon our reader-facing content, or whether to allow DoB a greater amount of leeway in editing, based on his sincere desire to be a good contributor and consideration of his self-described status as neurodivergent. I think we need to go one way or the other on this, and once we do that, we can get to consensus. There's little point in editors repeating what we have already said, and going back and forth over that. I think we should look at the evidence we have, and seek a consensus – not unanimous consent, but ]. And nobody here is coming from a position of personal dislike of DoB, or wanting to get rid of DoB. We wouldn't be working so hard on crafting this, if that were the case.
			:::::The editors, including me, who favor strict restrictions have provided a significant amount of evidence, based on edit history and continuing edits, to support that view. In my opinion, editors who oppose those restrictions are acting more out of a feeling, rather than based upon the actual characteristics of mainspace edits. At least, that's my opinion. I've been thinking hard about this, and it seems to me that stricter restrictions would provide DoB with ''structure'' while working to correct past mistakes and move forward into good editing status. And I believe ''structure'' to be A Good Thing. A lack of structure would actually make things more difficult. Structure (just until such time as the restrictions can be lifted) would be helpful. I really hope that we can agree on that. --] (]) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I ] KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. ] (]/]) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I'm ND and lurking so I'm chime in.
			:::::::I was thinking of a short period of being restricted to fixing their articles (perhaps with a specific mentor) before being allowed more freedom to generally edit, then any other restrictions can be lifted over time?
			:::::::They've admitted that they have issues with sensory overload already, so having a tight focus on exact tasks with goals to aim for could be really helpful in this case. It will also ensure that the affected articles aren't left by the wayside, as there are so many of them.
			:::::::Having a visual list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed will also be a good motivator and incentive - another useful tool for ND editors.
			:::::::TLDR: I think we should aim for structure & focus on specific, clear tasks, with incentives for reaching certain goals. The best way to do this would be to restrict to fixing the articles then gradually expand the scope of editing over time. ] (]) 22:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@] {{tqq| list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed}} there's ]. ] (]) 22:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::@] Yes, exactly that, I noticed there was a list earlier! That'll be really useful for them going forwards, so I think that set goals based on that list will be really helpful & also help to rebuild trust and editing experience overall. Something like allowing typo correction on general articles after 25 have been fixed, citation checking at 50, AFC/AFD discussions at 50% complete? I've completely made those goals up but they're just an example of what I'm thinking of & they should be chosen by/discussed with @] - hopefully it's a feasible suggestion! ] (]) 22:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::It's not going to be a lot of fun and I'm sure that they are operating entirely out of good faith, but often ND brains don't care about our intent - when it's a problematic area or particularly complex, we have to be strict with ourselves to make sure we can actually get things done. If it won't cause problems I'd like to help if I can, I mainly gnome but I figure some help is better than none? I could also help with advice or support as a fellow ND editor. ] (]) 22:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles ==
	::: How many Christians can read the ] back to front off the top of their head? none that I know of. As for Muslims, there are millions of those. In fact this is standard practise to enable Muslims to pray ] which actually requires full quran memorization. ] ] 06:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Again, Argumentum ad populum. ] (]) 07:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			] keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on ], however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.
	* I already ¡voted for 1RR, and 24hr block for any 3RR violations. But, as with most major religious topics, things can (and have) become contentious. Perhaps any future edits by these two, should <u>first</u> have consensus on either the talk page or at the relevant WikiProject page. - '']'' 06:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' all measures suggested. Since more details have emerged about the latest spat, it's clear that this is a continuation of ], so this should go to RfC/U and/or ArbCom. Transforming edit warring into slightly slower edit warring won't have any appreciable benefits. ] (]) 07:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::This post by ] (for which thanks), linking ] pretty well makes all of the above irrelevant. The first diff given by Pass a Method in the previous is self-incriminating, although Pass a Method evidently has no concept of the problem. It is not an issue of Jewish/Christian bias that Misplaced Pages references Bible stories/articles to the Jewish/Christian Bible, it is simply following ], since ] place the 1000BCE, or whenever, ancient Jewish stories first and then the 7th Century Quran mentions based on the Jewish stories second. Muhammad's writings are tertiary references, chronologically. A couple of words in a sura does not give the Quran primary billing ahead of the Hebrew Bible in[REDACTED] article space. I suggest this section be closed with 1RR on Pass a Method as an interim action and ] opened ASAP. ] (]) 12:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Topic-ban Pass a Method'''. I perused the diffs and the previous incident, and I can't see why this is being framed as a symmetric situation of edit-warring, when we obviously have a POV-pushing, ] editor trying to introduce novel and ] reading into articles, then edit-wars to keep it in, and an editor with a clue who reverts to a previous, consensus version, and occasionally loses temper in the process? I really do not see any kind of honest difference of opinion, just a disruptive editor who should be removed in the best interest of the encyclopedia? ] (]) 13:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	** This won't happen on ANI because he clearly has fans; see the comments of Sportfan5000 above, for example. ANI is unsuitable for solving disputes unless they are very imbalanced in terms of numbers on each side of the BATTLE. ANI is also unsuitable for presenting large amounts of evidence. So on both counts this is more like the Tea Party situation that went to ArbCom in the summer. ] (]) 13:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::], re ]'s suggestion I would expect - the more I look at Pass a Method's pattern of edits - a topic ban would be the likely outcome of taking this to a more in depth location. But are you proposing starting from ]'s draft RfC/U? (User Halo Jerk hasn't been online since 16 Dec. Are you proposing something/somewhere else? ] (]) 14:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::: I don't see how i'm going to be judged over an incomplete set of edits, like i mentioned above; it was a work-in-progrress. Plus there has already been an RfC on weihgt given to religions; (see ), but the close was inconclusive. ] ] 16:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::: It seems clear to me that we need another RfC similar to the one earlier this year, but this time with alterations made to our guidelines, since its obvious this is currently a grey area. This entire dispute falls within that grey area. It doesn't matter what happens on this thread, because inevitably, a month from now, or a year from now similar situations are going to pop up. if we keep it as it is now, the only conclusion i can see is more editos leaving wikipedia, either through frustration and personally quitting, or through blocks, and we'll have even less editors than we have now. ] ] 17:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::: Come to think of it, StAnselms version of the article apppears to represent the ] version of the article; (see ). I'm pretty sure most wikipedians here don't want to turn[REDACTED] into ] do we? ] ] 17:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Comparison''' between[REDACTED] and]:
	**Garden of Eden, on vs - similar
	**Tree of life/knowledge, on vs - similar
	**Lot, on vs somewhat similar
			Diffs:
	:Why should Misplaced Pages be similar to Conservapedia? ] ] 18:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::Citation '''bot''' is an automated process, and not a human. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. ] (]) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:You can add this to the page in question – <nowiki>{{bots|deny=Citation bot}}</nowiki> – or you can add this to a specific citation – <nowiki>{{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}}</nowiki> – to keep the bot away. See -- ].]] 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that ] did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on ], see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. ] (]) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			: Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a ]. ] (]) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Citation bot is not a ], but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:
			::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348
			::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078
			::"All ] apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."
			::-] ] (]) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the ''person'' who is ''using'' the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Most of these seem to have been invoked by {{u|Abductive}}, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? ] (]) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on ]. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee {{rpa}}. Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. ] (]) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493
			:Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.
			:These edits were suggested by the following user:
			:*]
			:] (]) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Found another bad date in another article:
			::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by ]
			::Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. ] (]) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Found another bad date in another article:
			:::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)
			:::Suggested by user:
			:::*]
			:::Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates ] (]) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::] is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". ] (]) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Because it is not necessarily an error. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::It is still about Citation bot. ] (]) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by ]. ] (]) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			You have given the operators ] to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? ] (]) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits.]] 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the ]. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —] (]) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that.]] 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."
			:::::-]
			:::::] is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. ] (]) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::It would be best if the bad source was removed, per ] and ]. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes.]] 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Can you quote the part of ] which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. ? ] (]) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —] (]) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about ], not ]. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about ''your'' use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. ] (]) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::] specifically says {{tq|The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. '''In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account.''' Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot}}. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —] (]) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{tqq|I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.}} I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to ] to me... - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.
			::::::::::::As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —] (]) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>moved down from the middle of the above comment (]). &ndash; ] (]) (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			::::::::::::::So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right??]] 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. ] (]) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Unsupervised bot and script use has ]. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix ].... ] (]) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::We're into ]. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. ] (]) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{pb}}I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to {{u|Whoop whoop pull up}} two weeks ago () about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed ''me'' to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have ''continued'' to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at {{Section link|User talk:Whoop whoop pull up|Checking IABot runs}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. ''Both'' should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here ''neither''. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. ] (]) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.
			:* Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
			:** ] says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, '''whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page'''" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
			:** BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of ]. Now, ROLE ''does'' have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple '''managers'''", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're ''developed and maintained'' by a team of people (rather than ones that can be ''used'' by multiple people).
			:** Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to ''50,000'' pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the ''only'' people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved ''despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible''; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they ''were, in fact, approved'' implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
			:** ] seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
			:** ] says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ''''", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
			:** ] provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
			:* Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
			:** ] says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved ''despite'' the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).
			:] <sup>] 🏳️‍⚧️ ]</sup> 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.
			::"Both should take reponsibility"
			::-] at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 ] (]) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? ] <sup>] 🏳️‍⚧️ ]</sup> 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.
			::::Policy is very clear, '''don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus.''' ] (]) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::: WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. {{pb}}These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. ] (]) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Or, as ] puts it: {{tq|Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked.}} ] (]) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Citation bot has not been {{tqq|approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking}}. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at {{slink|User:Citation bot|Bot approval}}. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.{{pb}}But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.{{pb}}If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. ] (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot.]] 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::☝🏽{{Pb}}It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.{{pb}}I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.{{pb}}Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.{{pb}}Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.{{pb}}I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against {{u|Abductive}} or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion ''somewhere'' specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping {{u|AManWithNoPlan}}, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. ] (]) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::: I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots ''and'' checking the results.<span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).{{pb}}However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.{{pb}}Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.{{pb}}Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, ] (]) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{tq|" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"}} Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. ] (]) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			: The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. ] (]) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' This discussion about (comparing) Conservapedia & WP is pointless and borders on AGF violation. If CPedia has RS (which meets WP standards) in its articles, then what's the beef? Is there a problem in our project simply because one wiki looks like another? Could it be that CPedia has copied from WP? So what?? – ] (]) 18:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			::Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 ] (]) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	**It's not just an AGF violation (and it isn't borderline, either); it's an in-your-face civility violation, because it amounts to saying (to paraphrase) "Why don't you go somewhere else?" ] (]) 18:45, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*Is there anything left here to discuss? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::It's not any sort of violation to point out the similarity. The violation is that Conservapedia is openly biased, so if WP articles look like it, then they're also biased. ] (]) 19:22, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. ] (]) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::That, my friend, is the fallacy of ]. "Biased articles look like X. This article looks like X, therefore it's biased." It's the equivalent of saying. "Dogs have four legs. Horses also have four legs, therefore horses are dogs." ]] (]) 21:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:: Why is that example wrong? The source code of the webpage says {{code|"datePublished":"2023-02-25T18:46:42+00:00",}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 04:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	** Yes, but conservapedia's mission statement purpusefully presents one point of view. If this happens on an article which is as general and all-encompassing as the garden of eden, then we aren't doing it correctly. ] ] 19:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:::Because the webpage made unknown modifications after that date. "<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2023-09-04T22:23:52+00:00" />" view-source:https://worldribus.org/east-antarctica-ranges/. ] (]) 04:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::*:I checked the the via Qeustia. That entry is only 5 lines long, and starts "Garden of Eden, in the Bible, first home to humankind". The last sentence says "also mentioned in the Quran". The Encyclopedia of World Mythology (2009) has no mention of the Quran. (; paywall) has no mention of the Quran in the first 100 words (which is the only ones I can access, total article is 190). It's very common in a Western context to mostly relate Garden of Eden to the Genesis narrative. Of course, the world is changing and Misplaced Pages is meant to have a global focus, so the traditional Western of presenting this way may need modification. But there is hardly a straightforward answer on how to handle this. The question of how these articles should be structured is complex; several viewpoints may be valid, we should try not making it into a battleground. ] (]) 21:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:::: If a news article had a modified date, for example created on January 1 but maybe a correction was made on Jan 3, then you would want the date shown to be Jan 1 because that is how articles are cited (and later found). How is a bot supposed to know you might want the modified date instead of the creation date? <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 04:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::: Yes, but because of our ] guideline,[REDACTED] is different to those other encyclopedias. ] ] 21:43, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:::::1. Not a news article.
	*'''Oppose proposal, support a ban on editing religion articles for Pass a Method only'''. Pass a Method has a long history of disruptive edits and edits against consensus, while StAnselm is one of Misplaced Pages's more productive editors. The comments by Pass a Method suggest an ideological motivation. -- ] (]) 21:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:::::2. Intention is irrelevant. These edits are disruptive regardless.
	Either dole out mutual indefinite blocks or take this to AN and seek consensus for a mutual community ban. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			*:::::3. Maybe program it to not add dates to modified works. ] (]) 04:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:<small>Geez, I thought you were kidding. - '']'' 21:30, 26 December 2013 (UTC) {{nao}} </small>
	::No I'm not. This is a disgrace to the project of the first order. --] (]) 21:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Involved comment''' I consider myself involved, having myself been in a position similar to StAnslem, and this current situation feels far too familiar. Here is the pattern:
	::1. Pass a Method makes a ] but problematic edit or move (often tendentious, reactionary, and not well thought out) often making similar problematic changes across multiple articles. (Example: Moving ] to ] ???) Typically this is done with a bland edit summary that doesn't justify the edit such as "add content" or "copyedit" as if PaM is trying to slip the edit under the radar.
	::2. Someone (in this case StAnselm) recognizes the problem, reverts it, perhaps reverting parallel changes in other articles, and asking for discussion.
	::3. Instead of discussing, Pass a Method simply reverts back to their preferred version.
	::4. From this point the outcome varies, but generally ends up fairly quickly at a noticeboard, with a fair amount of reverting, user talk page templating, and often a bit of canvassing by PaM. ( for instance).
	:All of this could be avoided and the disputes could be quickly resolved if PaM simply followed either ] or ]. Like others who have commented, I don't think an interaction ban would be the ideal solution, and I don't think a 1RR restriction would solve the problem. It looks like a couple people have mentioned RfC/U, and with all due respect to the OP, I think that would be a slightly better direction. <span style="font-family:times; text-shadow: 0 0 .2em #7af">~] <small>(])</small></span> 22:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			== ] bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools ==
	* '''Support''' a topic ban for Pass a Method, and '''Support''' an interaction ban for both. The "Abrahamic person" should be discussed at an RfC before someone runs off doing undiscussed moves (Pass a Method didn't reach out to the relevant WikiProject's for their comments)--especially since "Abrahamic" might not be the correct WP:UCN-compliant term for all contexts--such a move is thoroughly unnecessary since we've pretty much covered the Judeo-Christian contexts in the "biblical person" articles, like Lot, Cain and Abel, the articles on Mary, and accomplished an Islamic context in their own spin-off articles like Lot in Islam, Mary in Islam, etc. etc. We have articles on biblical persons and biblical narratives in the Quran. His contributions in adding "Abrahamic" and other information should be reviewed given that they might pose issues with WP:CFORK and being redundant at the articles he's effecting and several already-existing articles.--] (]) 22:30, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|PEPSI697}}
	::A non mutual punishment of any kind in this matter suggests you are more than involved; you are biased, which is the worst thing to be on ANI. --] (]) 02:46, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.
	*'''Support''' a topic ban for Pass a Method. I see no reason to punish StAnselm who has been trying to maintain the articles. ] (]) 03:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	***@]: See my comment directly above yours. --] (]) 19:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support a topic ban on Hebrew Bible articles for Pass a Method''' - this is further to comment and additional to the '''1RR restriction on Pass a Method''' above, I haven't looked in depth at the other contribs outside Hebrew Bible subjects to judge whether further topic bans are called for, but have now looked at both sets of edits from 27 November and this week. Conclusion: it's evident that Pass a Method has a topic-ban level problem with Hebrew Bible articles. To come repeatedly to different articles on Genesis subjects and refusing discussion edit war the lead to "in '''the Quran''' and Genesis" falls simultaneously into all 3 of the WP:POV/WP:POINTY/WP:FRINGE areas. I cannot see a single edit from either the first run of attempts to put the Quran ahead of the Hebrew Bible which were forestalled by the earlier appearance at ANI, and the second re-run of the second run of attempts to put the Quran ahead of the Hebrew Bible this time. Pass a Method was warned the first time, redoing the same edits and edit-warring up to 3RR justifies a topic ban. I say "first" only in relation to ANI, the editor has been trying to insert the Quran ahead of Genesis in various articles and even dabs since at least as far back as 7 Feb 2013 . . These additions are long term and persistent. When challenged Pass a Method edit wars up to the 3RR line, then goes away and comes back later or takes the "'''in the Quran''' and Genesis" formula to a different article. If the editor's views on Judaism and Christianity moderate to recognize the usual chronological sequence of history of religions (Judaism->Christianity->Islam) then this can be demonstrated on Talk pages before the topic ban on Hebrew Bible articles is lifted. Pass a Method simply needs to demonstrate an understanding that the Hebrew Bible stories are firstly Jewish and not firstly Islamic, but there are posts above here indicating quite clearly that Pass a Method refuses to acknowledge what in WP:RS sources is axiomatic. ] (]) 02:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:*Yeah. If I had had time to write more, and the skill, my reasoning would have looked much like yours. ] (]) 03:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) {{Diff2|1264943166|a message}} for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person {{Diff2|1264946563|made a discussion on the talk page}} about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me {{Diff2|1264940021|this}} message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I {{Diff2|1264940623|didn't understand what exactly was the issue}}, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I {{Diff2|1265117356|wish him merry Christmas}}, he wishes me, everything is fine.
	*'''Support mutual 1RR restriction''' per Dougweller. The objective is to quiet the dispute not to punish transgressors. ] (]) 05:18, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Why "mutual"? If the objective is to quiet the dispute then a simple 1RR on Pass a Method as the editor adding POV controversial edits will suffice. There's no need to add a 1RR on editors reverting Pass a Method since if Pass a Method can't put edits such as '''in the Quran and ''' edit straight back two times and three times there's nothing to revert. I see St Anselm and ] and before they left PiCo, History2007 and John Carter, and a few others, daily on my Watchlist reverting endless POV and fringe material edits from Bible articles. Being able to go up to 2RR or 3RR with the latest POV or fringe editor is essential to stop the articles deteriorating further. Most of these articles could actually be edit protected and frozen at 3 or 5 years ago when they were in better shape than today.
	:Closer? Note that ] is still open so this RM ideally should close that off too. ] (]) 05:19, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Either do a mutual editing restriction or nothing at all. --] (]) 12:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Disclosure''': PaM messaged me on my talk page, as was mentioned above. Anyway...I am not comfortable with a vote being held on ANI to enforce topic bans, interaction bans or whatnot. Why not go through a dual RfC/U for both users, hash it out there, and then turn it over to AN upon closing? It will take longer but it's more appropriate for drawn out discussions, ensures that all sides are heard and can make any resolutions afterward more definitive. ] (]) 12:37, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' - I'm leaning toward doing nothing at all at this point. Both parties to this dispute are veteran editors who should know better. Let them take the dispute to ] where they can find a way to work through their differences without being disagreeable. ] (]) 16:09, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Topic ban Pass a Method''' from religious topics. Those who've read my ] draft (mentioned a few times higher up) already know that I see Pass a Method as a very troubling editor who 99.9 % of the time can never edit neutrally, especially on religious topics. ] (]) 03:31, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*And as for Pass a Method having '''fans''', if so, he does not have many. ] and others, feel free to help me shape the WP:RfC/U. ] (]) 03:48, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:@]: You are just as biased as all the other editors suggesting a non mutual restriction in this matter. --] (]) 11:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support mutual 1RR restriction''' per Dougweller. Both are good editors! Both have strong convictions! The objective is to quiet the dispute not to punish transgressors. - ] (]) 15:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:] - I don't really understand your 1RR proposal as it relates to the editor preventing controversial edits repeatedly being added, i.e. St Anselm. The edits you have linked seem to all of them show Pass a Method adding Quran-first comments and editors, recently St Anselm, but previously other WP Religion editors, reverting Pass a Method. What about other editors reverting either Pass a Method or similar to edits to religion articles? As you know someone intent on pushing a fringe or POV or WEIGHT problem edit rarely stops with 1 revert, they very often take it to 2RR or 3RR. Under your proposal will St Anselm still be able to revert other editors than Pass a Method? If not then who is going to? ] (]) 01:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Not my proposal, but it would be a 1RR restriction between the two editors and not affect them reverting anyone else. ] (]) 05:45, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' As not being shown to have any likelihood of ''improving the project''. The idea of "no reverts to each other" is weird as it does not allow for doing what Misplaced Pages states is the solution: require consensus for substantial changes to an article if anyone objects. Tell each to follow ] and avoid thousands of potential "solutions" which do not solve the issue as well as policy already provides. Cheers. ] (]) 13:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: {{Diff2|1269540618|1}}, {{diff2|1268720318|2}}, {{diff2|1268521356|3}}, {{Diff2|1268313652|4}}, {{Diff2|1268308516|5}}, {{Diff2|1268121077|6}}, {{Diff2|1268119998|7}}, {{Diff2|1268118180|8}}, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is ]. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor ({{u|Augmented Seventh}}): {{diff2|1269323555|1}}, {{diff2|1269333853|2}}, {{diff2|1269126403|3}}. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.
	== User:Trainmastercrc's December 25th Edits. ==
			I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi {{Diff2|1269543780|replaced}} my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential ] violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to {{Diff2|1269546279|seek clarification}} as to why they did this on their talk page. In {{Diff2|1269548452|their response to me}}, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me {{Diff2|1269576325|this}} message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see {{Diff2|1269577089|this}} edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me {{Diff2|1269580448|this}} message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. {{Diff2|1269580707|This}} edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.
	{{Userlinks|Trainmastercrc}} has been acting awkwardly in {{oldid|User:Trainmastercrc|587689364|this edit, and the past ones}}, either he is acting abnormally, or was probably compromised, and apparently, Hes been using the S-word in his userpage, can an experienced editor check this out? Thanks, ]] 02:03, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - {{diff2|1269549064|here}} they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when ] ] for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of ] without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. ]] 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:{{nao}} - He does have the word "shit" repeated on his user page 4,147 times. Yeah, that's a little weird. But some people have a hard time on the holidays. - '']'' 03:50, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. ] (]) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I have tagged their user page for deletion under criteria ]. Thanks, <font style="padding:2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 03:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			::That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and ], you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. ]] 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. , for example, they say: {{tpq|Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. }}. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. ] (]) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. ({{Diff2|1269544073|1}}, {{Diff2|1269540089|2}}, {{Diff2|1269335610|3}}, {{Diff2|1269126904|4}} {{Diff2|1269098577|5}}, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). ]] 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Seeing {{tq|no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism}} is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ ] (]) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. ] (]) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the ] (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." ] (]) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments {{Diff2|1269580448|demanding}} that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. ]] 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@]: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
			:::::
			::::@]: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are ''obvious'' vandalism.
			:::::
			::::Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, {{tqq|You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents}} - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you ''will'' stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you ''might'' stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. ]] 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{nacc}} {{ping|PEPSI697}} A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page ], ] and ]. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at ] and ] because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.{{pb}}FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on ] that you get {{tq|stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it}} when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been ]. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you {{tq|sometimes don't understand what some words mean}}, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.{{pb}}Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- ] (]) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to ]. ]] 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. ] (]) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future ===
	:I have blocked the account indefinitely as being possibly compromised. ] (]) 12:05, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::], I don't think that was necessary. ] has not made any poor edits to the mainspace, and his edits to his own userpage are not proof enough to believe his account is compromised. Consider unblocking, and reblock if he vandalises outside his userspace. Thanks, <font style="padding:2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 16:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I stand by the block; it's a protection block for the project. He has made these very erratic and out of character edits to his user page. By blocking him, it prevents him from making any erratic, out of character edits to the articles as well. We'll see what happens if/when he attempts to appeal the block, but I'd lean to the "better safe than sorry" side here. ] (]) 17:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::I have to agree with Ross. The edits have been confined to user space where people are given a little more latitude with what they add there (like I said, maybe he's just 'venting') This editor hasn't disrupted the project. Can you really block someone for something they ''might'' do? - '']'' 21:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::: ] and ], ]. It would be better and suggest a compromise if this were changed to a temporary 1-week block, That way when Trainmastercrc's block expires, we can see what happens then. ]] 23:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Yes...it's called prevention. From ]: "A block for protection may be necessary in response to...an account appearing to have been compromised." This is an account that appears to be compromised. ] (]) 00:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::I would rather take a chance that they make a few easily reversible edits, than keep them blocked for edits to their userpage that don't even contradict Misplaced Pages policy. <font style="padding:2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 01:19, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::If the edits don't "contradict Misplaced Pages policy," why did you label them as vandalism and request deletion of his page? ] (]) 01:30, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::In case the account was compromised and those edits were not theirs. Although in hindsight ] is a better alternative. <font style="padding:2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 01:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day.
	{{od}}Well, shit. Deference should go to only as the blocking admin, but if you disagree with an indef, you should be open to unblocking at the first request for one. ''Chevron'' deference at work in real life. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 07:41, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			::
	*'''Good block''' we shouldn't take chances on compromised accounts. The usual unblocking routes are available in the event there's really some other explanation. ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 21:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			:1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content.
			::
			:2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one.
			::
			:3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly?
			::
			:Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool.
			::2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection.
			::3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. ]] 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, I accept your apology. ]] 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Response and apology from PEPSI697 ===
	== Page move vandalism ==
			The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{vandal|Ultimate cosmic evil}} committed a lot of page move vandalism in the last few minutes. The account is now blocked, but is there an easy way to revert these moves? I could certainly use a hand with it. ] (]) 03:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the ] or looking at the ]? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.
	There are hundreds of reverts to undo; many of them went through 3 moves so it's not as simple as just hitting "revert." I can't do these right now; I'm signing off in the next few minutes. Sorry to leave people this mess, but I just simply can't do this right now. ] (]) 03:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. ] (]) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::There is guidance on how to use the {{tlx|Talk header}} found on its documentation page at ] and also at ]. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in ] and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like ], ], ], ], ] for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at ] or ]. -- ] (]) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with ], but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get ] article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{od|5}} Perhaps an administrator could close this discussion and all its related sub-discussions now that the OP and PEPSI697 seem to have amicably resolved their issue. Maybe all that's needed here is a firm warning to PEPSI697 to try to be careful in the future, and perhaps some encouragement to try not to over use these tools if doing so risks placing them in high-stress situations where they might lose their cool, with a reminder that the community might be less understanding the next time around if they end up back at ANI for doing something similar. -- ] (]) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Good idea there. I agree that me, Jolielover and the others involved resolved this issue. I absolutely agree with this idea to give a firm warning on my talk page. <b>]</b> ] | ] 08:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:The easiest way to do this is go through all his moves and Rollback them. The talk pages should be automatically re-moved. ] (]) 03:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			::Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you {{tq|absolutely agree with}} isn't really all that relevant to what the community ultimately decides to do, and continuing to post here only runs the risk of you somehow making your situation worse. -- ] (]) 10:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:For me it looks like, that every of his moves are now undone and there is nothing else to do. ] <sup>]</sup> 03:43, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::Ok, sorry. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::There is something weird going on here. Before the spree of name edits the user did were seem to be completely legitimate and unrelated to the page move vandalism. This includes adding notability templates, proding an article, reverted blanking of a closed AFD, Templating an anon for content blanking etc.--] (]) 03:49, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Maybe his/her account got compromised/hacked? ] <sup>]</sup> 03:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Probably just a case of someone building up edits to become autoconfirmed and not drawing any negative attention to itself before going on its spree. ] (]) 11:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I'm fairly sure I and a couple of other admins and users have cleaned up everything done by that account, at least as far as the obvious page move vandalism. What a mess! Thank you everyone for being around this evening to call attention to it and help. Please let me or this thread know if anyone notices anything that hasn't been taken care of. ] (]) 04:07, 26 December 2013 (UTC
	::I wasted a while going through these untill I realised that you have all done them already. Never mind, thanks everyone for your prompt action. This is the kind of vandalism that with the best will in the world we should have absolutely ] with. ] (]) 04:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::: Something seems wrong with this picture, especially the fact that the suspected operator/culprit is Ginsuloft. While I don't doubt the CU report, I do doubt whether this was good hand/bad hand socking or whether it was a family member who created that account and then went on a spree. ] <small>(] • ])</small> 15:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::I find to be kind of peculiar. I don't know why he would disable the bot like that... ] (]) 15:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			== Non-neutral paid editor ==
	:::::Wait! So it was Ginsuloft all along? Oh my, considering how he contributed to the encyclopedia. ]] 16:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Wow, that is surprising. Thankfully ] was unsuccessful. ] (]) 18:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::We have seen admins go bonkers and ] can be ]. That said, I've emailed Ginsuloft and am awaiting a reply, which may clear things up. Does Ginsuloft use a shared or public IP? ] <small>(] • ])</small> 20:32, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::And if it's a static IP, then what happens. ]] 21:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			@] is heavily editing ] in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. ] (]) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	It's impossible to tell with ] accounts, because it could be a family member or a dynamic IP. Unless there are a lot of behavioural similarities, they should leave the suspected sockpuppeteer alone if they are making useful contributions. ] (]) 08:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			:That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:
	== Uncommunicative editor ] and ] article ==
			:* Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
	A new, so far single purpose editor ] is making persistent and repeated major changes (mostly deletions) to the article ], without Edit summaries or Talk page discussion, despite repeated requests to do so in my Edit summaries and on the user's Talk page. I have also posted on the article's talk page. No response.
			:* Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
			:* - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
			:* Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.
			:An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably ]. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. ] (]) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::done ] (]) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@]: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly ] reasons for them.
			::#By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as ''"has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world"'' and ''"The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality"'' + ''"The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"?'' Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate ] and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a '''very''' strong statement cited to..., seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
			::#Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally ], and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. '''If''' that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, '''then''' it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
			::#Do you '''really''' think phrases like ''"China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments."'' are consistent with ]? '''Really?''' ''Maybe'' cutting '''all''' of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
			::# That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently . It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.
			::In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably ]" seems downright ]. ] (]) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns ? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a ] and ] manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that ] is supposed to prevent. --] (]) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like ], you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't ''bad'' by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply ''not good enough'' or ''relevant enough'' for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.
			::::Given ''this'' context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not ''obligated'' to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. ] (]) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @]'s paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @] provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/
			:My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. ] (]) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::''Adding'': Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 ] (]) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*An editor with a declared COI should ''never'' be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the {{tq|strongly discouraged}} wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --] (]) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:] So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this {{redacted|]}}?
			*:Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that '''if''' is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering '''is not even seen anywhere on their front page''' - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as . The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. ] (]) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq|Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)}} - that would be wrong. See ]; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we ''want'' editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read ], and especially ] Having a ''perspective'' on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. ] editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then ] needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.
			::::It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah ] editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that ''every'' edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it ''strictly'' barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --] (]) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's ''not'' the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change {{tq|strongly discouraged}} to {{tq|prohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism)}}. I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though.
			::::::Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be ''manually'' saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that {{tq|editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests}} - but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I ''need'' to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to ''this'' case, rather than a general statement.
			::::::Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*{{tqq|So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this}} Uh, guys? Does ] mean nothing to you? - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	We seem to be facing an insoluble communication problem which indicates possible ] problems.
			*:@] - I think that '''sanction should be swiftly applied'''. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. ]&thinsp;] 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: {{ping|InformationToKnowledge}}, '''do not''' attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with ''anyone's'' real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the ''principles of privacy'' still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. ]&thinsp;] 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Could we get an edit to ] for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. ] (]) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== ] back to Andrewjlockley ===
	Can an Admin please have a look? ] (]) 05:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. '''However''', that does not change the fact she has been one of a '''literal handful''' of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in ] over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.
	:I support ] in his concern about this editor's actions. --] (]) 05:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:With that in mind, I would like to say I have '''great''' difficulty assuming ] here - not when the OP editor {{redacted|]}}, which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective '''and''' when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.
	::As per Jack Greenmaven. Also note similar edits:
			:I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the ], the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.
	:*{{Userlinks|User2001}}
			:P.S. This is '''really''' not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:*{{Userlinks|Writer1962}}
			::With the greatest of respect @], your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @], or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether ] had a conflict of interest when they edited ], which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. ] (]) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:*{{Userlinks|Writer1999}}
			:::See ]... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.
	::] (]) 05:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::All of this is pertinent. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Temporarily blocked ] for 3RR violation. You may want to advise user in his talk page what and why. he can reply there if he wishes as the talk page is open. Should he continue edit warring, then there will be longer blocks forthcoming. -- ]<sup><i>]</i></sup> 13:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that {{noping|EMSmile}} has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that {{noping|Andrewjlockley}} is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. ] concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.
	::::Thank you. I note we still have absolutely no response from this editor. ] (]) 04:11, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If {{noping|InformationToKnowledge}} is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be ''they both should be'' though.
			::::Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. ] (]) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. ]&thinsp;] 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Please reread ], and especially ]. The suggestion that being a ''published academic on a subject'' constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of ], which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::as per {{redacted|]}} is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.
			:::Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. ] (]) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to ]. ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.
			:::
			:::
			:::If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. ] (]) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of ] before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? ] (]) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::*Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for ] that arises as a result.
			::::::*With regards to ] has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the ). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
			::::::*AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for ''more'' SRM research in their day job {{redacted|encouragement of ]}}. Also, ] explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be ''against'' doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
			::::::*I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by ] on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
			::::::*Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). ] (]) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery or], but I'll respond anyway.
			::::::::I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.
			::::::::Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way ] (]) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I wish to clarify the relationship between the (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.
			:::::Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was , for ten years, and is the l. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is , one of five authors of , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of . By quick count, of the other 14 authors on , one other is on the governing board, at least eight are , at least two are , and one is among .
			:::::In the other direction, of ESG's , eight have signed the .
			:::::The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. ] (]) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@], would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? ]&thinsp;] 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.
			::::::For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. ] (]) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an ''oversight'' on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	== 92.238.171.3 ==
			*:This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. ]&thinsp;] 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that {{user|EMsmile}} has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is '''also not on'''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::... gonna ask in talk page of ] if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point ] (]) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::], I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::{{ping|Liz}} the diff of them ''placing'' it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named ], then it constitutes ] (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at ] think it would be easier to avoid.
			*:::::opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases.
			*:::::alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? ] (]) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on ] of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant ] and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't ] people or contacting their employers. ] <sup>]</sup>] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	Now archived: ] continues. {{ipuser|92.238.171.3}}/{{ipuser|195.89.201.254}} still edit-wars to force Hungarian version of the town name upper in the infobox. He has been told on both talk pages what the current practice is, and why he was reverted, but does not seem to internalize it. 195.89.201.254 was blocked for two weeks (92 was not), but immediately resumed the same behavior after it expired. ] (]) 07:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:@] I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. ] <sup>]</sup>] 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding.
			*:::Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts.
			*:::BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point,
			*::::the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous.
			*::::AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. ] (]) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I also wanted to question this block. I'm not familiar with all the applicable[REDACTED] rules and conventions, but if I found out that eg the Heritage Foundation had been paying a contractor to edit the climate change page, I would hope that editors would 1) question the contractor and their edits, and 2) separately write to the Heritage Foundation to ask what they were up to. The latter wouldn't qualify as harassment in my book, just a sensible response to a legitimate concern about the integrity of wikipedia.
			*:::::Fwiw I also don't think that EMsmile should be blocked because ultimately we don't know whether they were paid by ESG to push the ideological line of the NUA campaign. Given their long history as an editor, and the fact they conduct themselves with courtesy and decency, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. ] (]) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Does Wikimedian in Residence apply? ===
	:Is silence a consent for revert-warring, or what?<br>For the start, I'll issue a WP:ARBMAC warning (<nowiki>{{subst:uw-sanctions|topic=b}}</nowiki>), and maybe AE will be more willing to refer to the matter. ] (]) 14:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit[REDACTED] seems analagous to . See also ]. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no ]. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. ] (]) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? ] (]) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::It is really inspiring to raise an issue here and then continue talking to myself. It would be more encouraging that at least someone blocks me per ]; at least, that would mean that someone is paying attention.
			::I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. ] (]) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Anyway, more from the editor in question:
			:My situation is totally different to @]. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @] adjusting the page '''to favour her client''' (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. ] (]) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::* "which is absolutely disgusting racism, prejudiced and abhorrent language. Anyone talking so openly racist on[REDACTED] should surely be banned from contributing on here"
			::What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the ] article ]. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per ].
	::* "you really should not support ethnic cleansing of Hungarians. Chauvinism should be made an offence on[REDACTED] too."
			::Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding ]- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.
	::* "We see openly anti-Hungarian attitudes here, it is absolutely appalling that such individuals are trying to dominate here."
			::Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. ] (]) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::To make the circus complete, he is then being reverted by a sock of Bonaparte (or of someone similar), and my SPI request sits idle for 6 hours
	::Can someone apply a cluebat... PLEASE??? ] (]) 13:23, 31 December 2013 (UTC)		:::Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. ] (]) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile ===
	== ] ==
	{{archivetop|1=Indef-blocked by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 06:20, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	*{{userlinks|Spreadsol}}
			<s>Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. {{Noping|EMsmile}} is a paid editor who violated ] - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight ''are highly disruptive'' - and that's notwithstanding the ''paid editing.'' Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. </s> Proposal withdrawn. I think I was a bit hasty. Now supporting topic ban below. ] (]) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	This user has repeatedly added copyvios (], ], ], ], possibly ], ], from , from , etc.). They responsible for the films, in which case they are ]. The user is completely non-communicative, with in four years. ] 08:32, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Indefinite block until they start discussions. There is also a ]. See ] where the editor writes "I work for Magnet Releasing and this is not a copyright infringement as it is our synopsis. I cited ComingSoon as well." ] (]) 09:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::If anyone wants to help clean up the copyvio text it would be appreciated. I can delete any articles that need it or rev/del old edits to suppress the copyvio. Advice on the images would be useful also. ] (]) 18:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::: I have gone through the image uploads, everything is now chill in that regard. -- ] (]) 22:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::I've cleared out the remaining text copyvios. ] 05:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Thanks everyone! ] (]) 06:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			:'''<s>Oppose block, support ]ing EMS for almost ], ]ing AJL for aggressive interactions</s>, warning ITK for ].'''- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.
	== Ashkenazi Jews ==
			:the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically ] suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group ] (]) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivetop| Anyone can warn an editor, RPP is over there, besides Nishidani and Debresser the only editor from the talk page is not requesting Admin action. ] (]) 17:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC) }}
			::From ] {{tq|WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages}} - this seems not to be the case here. ] (]) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	We just had a conflict on ] where consensus was reached with great trouble. Now {{User|Nishidani}}, who in the beginning participated in the consensus forming process, started to make non-consensus edits, claiming they are "per talk page", while the ] is still ongoing and at least two editors disagree with his opinion. Please protect the page and warn Nishidani. ] (]) 13:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.
			:::want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi applies] (]) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by ] - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. ] (]) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. {{U|Bluethricecreamman}} has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether {{U|EMsmile}} was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. ] (]) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. ] (]) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see ] apologize for the ] that occurred. ] (]) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. ] (]) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*'''Strong oppose''' <small>(uninvolved)</small> there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in ''simple ignorance'' (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not ]).
			::That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, '''it fails a DUCK test''', and ''looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor''. What I see is a properly disclosed ] editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. ''These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors.'' Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't ] going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :]&thinsp;] 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: <small>((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above)</small> 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, ''otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month'', 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that ''AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI.'' They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including ''very questionable'' off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where ] was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT ''recent'' contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a '''grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI''' (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month ''for over 11 years'')... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either ] or ]. ]&thinsp;] 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Maybe everyone gets ]s at this point and we move on? ] (]) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.
			:::::However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for '''potential civil-POV'' which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like might come off is overly whitewashing, but {{tq|China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.}} but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does <u>call into need for a closer look</u>, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. ]&thinsp;] 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group
			::mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. ] (]) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Strong support'''. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, ] applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that ] only ''strongly discourages'' paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --] (]) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose and IMO unthinkable''' They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:As one of those involved in the discussion, I'm not sure admin actions are needed at this stage. I agree that Nishidani's latest edit was premature (and not correct in my own opinion) but I have the impression all users involved actively discuss and that there is very little edit warring.] (]) 14:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:{{tq|made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit}}: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.<br>I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. ] (] · ]) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::No consensus was reached. We had three days of stalling, and only Jeppiz took some trouble to actually look at sources. The other editors, Debresser, Tritomex, and now Ankhmorpork, simply asserted an opinion in support of a text that is verifiably false. This frivolous complaint should at least draw administrative eyes to gaming, and Debresser's failure to respond adequately to serious, RS-based edit proposals, in favour of his personal POV. After some days of getting chat, I made , with the edit summary, 'as per talk', where numerous sources justify it, and no one troubled to answer the evidence.
			*::Personally, I am much more concerned about '''un'''declared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Content-wise, I replaced a statement which represents a widespread traditional view as a fact (violating ]), with a statement, supported by quotes from eminent sources, showing the mainstream view, and the fact that some scholars variously contest it.
			*I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The only response by Debresser to detailed examination of several sources which corroborate my point were (a) assertions of his personal feelings about the language in question, and (a) a rabbinical joke. No work, no sweat, no reading, just an attitude.
			*:Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet ] . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. ] (]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Examine the quality of comment where there is a clear case of stalling normal editorial decisions. If that is too long the gist is summed up by the contrast in the following diffs between attempts to argue from sources and the flippant replies they receive from Debresser, who is chatting to defend an identifiable POV against policy:
			*::I meant meat puppet. ] (]) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I wrote and Debresser
			*<s>'''Tentative oppose''' - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</s>
	::The pattern repeats itself, as I answered and and only to see Debresser .
			:*Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::That page is generally held hostage, and is a complete mess. I think over two years I've managed to make only four or five successful edits to emend its patent and ubiquitous POV pushing.] (]) 17:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			*'''Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates''' with no opinion on indef block at this time.
	:::@Debresser - warning someone is something you can do. It isn't actually an Administrative action if it is just meant to be an ordinary warning. This isn't the page to request protection either. So the reasons you've given for bringing this here don't seem appropriate for ANI and the only other editor besides Nishidani posting here sees no need for action. I am thereby closing this discussion as there is no appropriate request here for Admin action. ] (]) 17:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			From what I can see, looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the ]: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide (emphasis in the original).
	== 70.53.97.28 ==
			Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination:
	{{archivetop|1=Blocked for one week by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			* August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA.
	{{IPvandal|70.53.97.28}} has been replacing talk pages of articles about children's movies with the text of the article. I've left two messages on their talk page, but have gotten no response. Not quite vandalism, but unhelpful and baffling. ] (]) 16:47, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary.
	: I have blocked the IP for one week. -- ] (]) 17:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			* Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with ] , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of ].
	{{archivebottom}}
			When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil.
			EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "{{tq|And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.}}." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "{{tq|That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page.}}" Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client.
	== Request ==
			It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	User Vahram Mekhitaryan repeatedly added wrong, not related links in articles, and starting edit wars. Please take some action against it.
	That user repeatedly adding original research statement (), which has been removed per discussion at talk page, but he readding it again.
	Adding non related links (, , ). Besides, reverting edits with uncertain/wrong explainations in edit summary.
	He was previosly blocked 3 times for edit war in same article. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:{{nonadmin}} What discussion on the talk page? There's nothing there but a list of WikiProjects (I even checked the history and found nothing). '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 18:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::, that statement has been removed, but that user added it again and again.--] (]) 08:53, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			I looked at ] last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics '''written 73% of the article''', in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing.
	== An IP address causing problems at a talk page ==
	{{archivetop|1=Blocked for 48 hours by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	On the talk page of the ] article, me and other users have repeatedly warned this IP address that talk pages aren't forums but he doesn't seem to understand. Due to his/her edit-warring (), the talk page has already went through article protection. Something needs to be done. ] (]) 17:33, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nonadmin}} I the user on his/her talk page. Actually, I issued ''two'' warnings because the comments s/he was making sounded rather bigoted. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::And now s/he's . Guess I walked into ''that'' one (I can handle it though). '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 08:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Okay, . Can someone block this person, please? '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 08:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{User|212.174.38.3}} has been treating the talk page like a forum the past week or so. S/he has been edit-warring over libel remarks which is not helpful in building an encyclopedia. The user has already been warned on his/her talk page a few hours ago. This is the second time I am here at ANI in the past 24 hours. The talk page has already gone through page protection due to the problems caused by the user. Numerous users have done everything they could to tell him or her to stop treating[REDACTED] like a forum and to please talk about how to build a better encyclopedia. Unfortunately, that hasnt been done yet. Proper action against the user is required asap. ] (]) 08:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Blocked already; hadn't seen this thread yet. ] (]) 18:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			<small>I added the paragraph below to my comment at around the same time as EMSmile's response below</small>
	== Help needed for SIU seal ==
			ESG, like many non-profits, probably wants to help Misplaced Pages but needs guidance on our rules. It is very common for non-profits to see Misplaced Pages as a form of social media presence and to want to leverage Misplaced Pages to build their brand. Brand-building is not where the opportunity is on Misplaced Pages. The opportunity is to improve Misplaced Pages articles in the organization's area of expertise using top-quality sources. A best outcome for all this would be for EMSmile to stop the COI edits and then work with ESG to pivot the project in a more productive direction.
	{{archivetop|1=This is the wrong forum for this discussion. ] (]) 23:21, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	File:Siuseal.gif was edited, replacing the SIU seal with the new SIU Edwardsville seal, which is NOT appropriate for the SIU system or for SIU Carbondale. Other editors and I have tried to revert it to the actual SIU seal, but it retains the new SIUE seal: ]
	Needed: 1) Reversion of File:Siuseal.gif to actual SIU seal; 2) Creation of new file for the new SIUE seal.
	] (]) 17:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Done - new upload is at ] -- ] (]) 17:51, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Page-move dispute on ] ==
	{{archivetop|1=Move protected for two months by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small>}}
	Since its creation, the title of the article was rejected. "Die Freiheitlichen" is a political party representing a german minority in northern Italy, for which no english or italian translation exists. A single user insists on translating that name, suggesting and trying different translations ("The Libertarians", "The Freedomites", ... all original research with no occurence in valid sources), but gains no consensus. The extensive discussion is summarised . In short: most editors (except one) support to leave the german proper name as title for this article. But moving the article to the "agreed" title "Die Freiheitlichen" results in this one editor reverting the move. In HIS opinion, consensus means, that HE has to agree, not the majority.--] (]) 18:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nonadmin}} It would really help if you specified which "single user" you're speaking of (I think I have an idea, but...), and after you do that, you have to notify him/her about this discussion. At any rate, this sounds like a job for ], which I'll do right now. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:05, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:11, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			:Hello ], we know each other well from working on the same articles as part of ]. My client for the project under discussion here is the "Earth System Governance Foundation" (not the project (] (which is an alliance), nor the concept ] itself). So when you say that I should "immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder", then who do you mean? Strictly speaking it would be the "Earth System Governance Foundation". They don't have a Misplaced Pages article about themselves, neither do they have a website.
	== Disruptive editing by ] ==
			:FWIW: If you look at the history of two articles that you mentioned: ] and ], then I think you can see that I actually made them a lot better, not worse (compared with their versions from about early July last year). I added better sources and more nuanced content, including criticism and debates. If there are still unsourced, overly promotional statements in there, then this needs to be addressed (probably best on the talk pages or with direct edits of course).
	{{archive top|content dispute. ] is that way. ] <small>(])</small> 19:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			:FYI: The Earth System Governance Project is “a global research network that aims to advance knowledge at the interface between global environmental change and governance. The network connects and mobilizes scholars from the social sciences and humanities researching at local and global scales.” It is not an advocacy group. It is not my client nor employer. There is also no official/legal/formal connection between the ESG Foundation and the ESG Project.
	;Mallexikon edited against ] at the ] article
			:If a topic ban was imposed, would such a topic ban for me for ] apply only to the duration of this particular consultancy or for life? Also a topic ban from ]? Would I still be allowed to propose changes on the talk pages? And would the ban stop when my consultancy stops (likely in a few months), or be there for life?
			:Just to clarify for those following this ANI: the bulk of my 60 000 edits were done in a volunteer capacity; and a certain proportion (it would be hard to estimate exactly what proportion) was done for different clients (they are mentioned on my profile page). Those clients are all mission-aligned and are not for profits or even corporations. I have no "agenda" that I am pushing. All I want to do is improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles in the area of climate change and sustainable development. A lot of my work is actually just about readability improvements.
			:Also just to clarify: when I mentioned "personal attacks" in that post that you, Clayoquot, linked to, I wasn't referring to attacks ''in this thread'' but I meant AJL's aggressive/confrontational comments on my talk page, and also on the talk page of SRM. It felt like a personal attack when someone writes on my talk page "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down. I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client." ] (]) 17:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't ] or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are ], which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.{{pb}}Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact , which states that {{tq|he Earth System Governance Foundation also serves as legal representative of the Earth System Governance research community.}} This is hardly what I would call "no official/legal/formal connection". ] (] · ]) 18:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:yeah, thats clearly a COI vio. let's report to ], or something else. EMS, it does not matter you made an article better, or are unbiased... COI's destroy the appearance of neutrality. ] (]) 18:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::did report to ] ] (]) 18:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It does matter (which doesn't mean I agree that they ''do'' make the article better -- that's outside my expertise). Just a point of order: we ''do'' allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive. I understand there are some editors who will say things like "editing with a COI is not allowed", but that's flatly incorrect in policy terms. It's not in the spirit of a Wikipedian-in-Residence program, but if EMsmile claims to be a WiR it's not on their user page or in this thread, as far as I can tell (and being a WiR isn't usually an effective shield anyway -- it's more a signal that someone is knowledgeable and following best practices such as, yes, not editing about the institution that hires you). We're talking about a standard paid editor, not a WiR. If the changes were constructive and transparent, there would be no reason for action. Evidence of editing with a COI isn't relevant to a sanction except where it's not transparent or not constructive, and my understanding of this section is that multiple people take issue with the quality of EMsmile's edits (i.e. ''edits'' that fail NPOV, not merely an editor that has a COI; the relevance of highlighting a COI is that we rightly provide little-to-no leeway to COI editors to make content mistakes relevant to their COI). FWIW. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::] put this back into our court. ] (]) 13:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' indefinate block as seems excessive given her long history of useful edits. ] (]) 14:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposal: Topic ban for EMsmile ===
	Mallexikon did to keep the coat rack material. See ]. Editors commented at the AFD that there were problems with the article, including the problems with the ] text. See ]. Mallexikon did acknowledge at the German acupuncture trials talk page that . But Mallexikon restored the outdated information about the results of the trials along with the low level details that do not benefit the reader. There was ] to limit the information about the results, but Mallexikon continued to restore the that are not ] compliant.
			<small>I added this heading just now to break up a section that was getting long ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 18:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC) </small>
			:::<small> The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.</small>True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its <s>direct</s> affiliates, broadly construed. This ''obviously'' include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project. This is the narrowest scope I can think of that would prevent the kind of disruption we have recently seen from you. I propose this topic ban be indefinite but appealable after 12 months. As you probably know, there's a good chance that you can avoid getting sanctioned if you commit to a voluntary restriction. I do not think at this time that you need to be banned from ''citing'' the scholarly works of ESG-affiliated people, however I strongly recommend you be very judicious and selective about the extent to which you do this. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 18:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	;Mallexikon edited against ] at the ] article
			::::Hi Clayoquot, I think your proposed topic ban is a good solution and way forward ("the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project."). I am happy to make a voluntary commitment to this restriction. I have no experience with such topic bans so I don't know the exact procedure. Do I put this on my profile page? Can you point me to an example where someone else has done this (maybe via my talk page)?
			::::
			::::By the way, the paragraph about the non-use agreement that is now (after some discussion) in the section on ] (second last paragraph) is pretty good in my opinion and does not need further changes at this stage (well, except the first sentence is a bit clunky, I already pointed that out on the talk page last week).
			::::] is part of the climate change topic complex and is thus, not surprisingly, a topic full of potential for debate and discussion (some people are strongly pushing for it, others are strongly warning about it), so I think further work is still needed and this article will evolve accordingly over time. Hopefully without any ANIs in the future. :-)
			::::I'll make sure I am more careful in future with respect to those ''grey areas'' while editing the ] article as mentioned above by ]. I could even commit that for the next few months, I don't make any edits to the ] article directly but always go through the talk page (taking up the offer that North8000 suggested above: "I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged").
			::::Oh and should the ] where I explain how I manage any potential COIs that can arise from working for/with clients, need improvement and tightening? Happy to be given advice on this (maybe better on my talk page than here). ] (]) 22:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::For the topic ban, you can add it to ]. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about ]. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being {{tq|a pioneer in opposing SRM research}} is sourced... to ETC Group itself). ] (] · ]) 23:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::EMsmile, thank you for being flexible on this. Just to make sure you are aware, a topic ban means you may not make any edits related to the topic in question, and this includes edits to talk pages. There is a ]. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 23:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Oh, the talk pages as well? Fine by me for the talk pages of ESGP and its founder but not for the entirety of the SRM article, I am sorry. I think this would not be justified. It's also a bit impractical. With regards to Chaotic Enby's post above I could stress that there are also secondary sources for the non-use agreement, and that I could provide them on the talk page and then leave it up to others if they want to add them to the article or not.
			::::::For background (if this helps, but it should rather be on the talk page of the SRM article, not here): The solar geoengineering non-use agreement is an academic initiative that simply believes SRM is a dangerous technology that should not be further developed, much like nuclear technology in the past and that powerful interests are funding it. That's it. That is why the topic is contentious. ] (]) 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::As I described above, I believe your edits regarding NUA at ] violated ] quite egregiously. Do you disagree?
			:::::::Posting sources on a talk page is one of the milder forms of advocacy but it is still advocacy. Other editors are capable of finding the sources they want on SRM very quickly, and their searches for those sources will probably be less biased than your searches. I do not think the benefit of you sharing sources outweighs the risk of you using the talk page for COI advocacy. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 03:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I respectfully disagree. I've used the talk page at SRM since middle of last year to reach consensus with other editors in a collaborative manner, like I always do. I ''tried to'' make my points in a concise manner, even if I sometimes failed (should make talk past posts shorter in future). Sometimes they might look like a "wall of text" because I copied a paragraph or even a whole section that is under discussion across. Of course there is always room for improvement but to be banned from writing on the talk page of SRM at all is in my opinion excessive.
			::::::::Please also note that the person who started this ANI originally said that I am doing "PR" for my client. This is not true. I can expand on this further but I think this is a content question, not one about procedures. Perhaps it's better to now let that his be handled in the COI noticeboard thread here?: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250119181200-Earth_System_Governance_Project. As was pointed out above by Rhododendrites: "we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive."
			::::::::I believe my edits for the ] article have been transparent and constructive. The article is in fairly good shape now and does not include any "PR" for a certain "brand" or alike. ] (]) 09:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{outdent}}Just to be clear, a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates would not stop you from editing the SRM talk page. It would only stop you from editing the SRM talk page ''on the topic of ESG and its affiliates''. And regarding your history on the SRM talk page, I'm sorry I think you just don't get it. The length of your posts there is a ''symptom'' of the attitude that you expressed in other ways. You took the position that you, a paid COI editor, get an equal say in the editorial decision-making process. Instead of offering information and then deferring to the judgement of unconflicted editors, you repeatedly asked for the article to be made more favorable to your client. And unless you are topic banned I see no reason to think you will not do it again. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 18:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			I'd like to know what other editors think of edits like at SRM and at ] (an article written almost entirely by EMsmile while being paid by ESG). Do the uninvolved people here see these as PR or not PR? ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 19:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	Mallexikon do not have consensus to continue to the . After I explained the text and the sources were not MEDRS complaint, Mallexikon but decided to go ahead and .
			:IMO if it were not for the PE aspect they look like pretty routine factual edits and I wouldn't use the term PR (by it's common meaning) for them. With the declared PE aspect I'd call it where it would be better to discuss and let them be put in by somebody else if they agree. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	I tried discussing the serious problems with both of the articles on the . But Mallexikon continues to argue for including the at the ] article and continues to for including the original research and MEDRS violations at the ] article. I'm not trying to be cruel here, but ] is required. Mallexikon should not be allowed to continue to violate the rules on Misplaced Pages. There has been too much of ] as well as ] editing by {{u|Mallexikon}}. ] (]) 18:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:<small>(involved, as I've had disagreements with EMSmile before)</small>. To me, some of this doesn't quite look routine. For instance, using Biermann's website to say he's graduated with distinction (we rarely mention this), or his own website to state he's often used by the press, and namedropping in a highly-viewed article. It's not egregious, but it would raise eyebrows even without the PE aspect. ] (]) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:@QuackGuru - If someone edited without consensus, that person is clearly ''you''. -] (]) 19:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			::Hi Femke, I've modified the ] article accordingly now (I agree with you; this needed improvement - my bad). And just to explain: I had mentioned Frank Biermann in the SRM article because he played an important role in developing the non-use agreement in the first place, and not because I wanted to "name drop" him (137 pageviews per day for the SRM article in the last year is not exactly "a highly-viewed article"). But I do understand that this could be "eyebrow raising" in the overall context of this COI discussion.
	{{archive bottom}}
			::I would be happy to improve the Frank Biermann article further if there are still problematic aspects (or "PR"?) that I have overlooked so far. However, I think it's probably better if I give myself a voluntary restriction for this article and also for the ] article, as well as the non-use agreement component of the ] article. I have just now written about this voluntary restriction on my profile page ]. I feel bad for the page watchers and admins that this ANI has gone on for such a long time now. Maybe we could draw it to a close now with this conclusion and voluntary topic ban? (if needed this could be fine-tuned through my talk page rather than through this ANI thread?) ] (]) 23:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	Related: ] --] (]) 20:04, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::We are making some progress. Your voluntary restriction, as currently worded, is quite far off from a ] or even a mainspace topic ban. A topic ban on the ESGF would stop you from, for example, adding a mention of Biermann or the ESGP to articles like ]. You have written about your client in multiple articles that are not in your voluntary restriction.
			:::At the very least - whether or not you have a voluntary restriction - you need to follow the COI guideline. Your comment above suggests that you don't recognize that you should have used a ] to add Biermann's name to the SRM article. Are you willing to commit to following the entirety of the COI guideline, including the use of edit requests for any non-trivial edits that involve your clients? ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 02:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support'''. I find the voluntary restriction too little too late. I don't think it should be narrowly construed or time-constrained, as some COI remains after a paid position. Some of EMS' additions are egregiously non-neutral, such as adding the following to an infobox "focus=Stimulate a vibrant, pluralistic, and relevant research community for ]" . You still claim on your user page that there is no organisational connection between the ESG Foundation and Project, despite stating the opposite, as pointed out 3 days ago. Working with a COI requires community trust, which I don't think exist anymore. I do wonder if this topic ban should be '''extended to future employers''' too? I can't find it back, but we have had discussions 3/4 years back already about more subtle COI editing on your part, where you promoted papers from individual scientists unduly, in exchange for them volunteering time to improve Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 08:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' per Femke. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' and will withdraw my proposal above. ] (]) 13:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose involuntary, as long as the details on the voluntary get confirmed''' <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 13:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per Femke. also this discussion has gone too long and is nearly 0.5 ]s long. We should end it somehow, and some kinda editting restriction is warranted at this point. ] (]) 17:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per Femke, while a block is far too much, a topic ban (with or without edit requests) seems more reasonable. ] (] · ]) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support as proposer''' and I think extending it to future employers/clients makes sense. Once someone has started work on a project, it can be difficult or impossible to change the client's expectations. It is emotionally hard for the community to contemplate sanctions that affect an individual's current employment, so preventing that kind of situation is best for everyone. EMsmile does relatively well when working for clients who do not expect COI editing. I hope the guidance she is getting here will encourage her to seek those types of projects. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 21:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Voluntary restrictions===
	== Edit Conflict ==
			{{Ping|EMsmile}} Just clarifying
			*When the Earth System Governance Project and Frank Biermann "zero editing" restrictions expire a year from now, of course if you were under any relevant PE arrangement all of the rules related to that would be in force.
			*Did you say that you were under a relevant PE arrangement on the Solar radiation modification article? If not, please ignore the rest of this. If so, while still under it (until you explicitly say it is over), for the areas not covered by your "zero edit" self-restriction, would you agree to operate in a "doubly safe" mode in the other areas of the article? Until then, ask someone else to put in any edits that are not clearly merely-gnome edits?
			Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 13:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive top|1=Issue has now been raised at correct venue (]). ]] 20:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	Myself and another editor over at ] are having a disagreement and the interpretations of policy are so fundamentally different that I think we need a few more opinions on the matter. Thanks! ] (]) 19:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I'm "other editor". Agreed requiring arbitration/unbiased opinion. Open to suggestions on best and least intrusive method. ] (]) 20:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Suggest you post this at ]. – ] (]) 20:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::That was next on my list, and I have since done so. ] (]) 20:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Is the dispute on whether the orphan tag belongs on the page? Or is it something to do with the sources—I'm a bit confused, but you seem to be altering both. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 20:19, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::The source saying that Nkosolo was going to be a Martian missionary is the main one. ] (]) 20:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::"The source saying that Nkosolo was going a Martian missionary is the main one." Whether he wishes to dispute the others issues of orphan, notability, etc.... I would suggest (on his behalf) that the other issue is the source at http://ed5015.tripod.com/PaZambiaSpaceFlight2.htm ] (]) 20:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== 2002 Gujarat violence ==		== Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza ==
			*{{articlelinks|Aubrey Plaza}}
			*{{userlinks|Religião, Política e Futebol}}
			*{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}
			{{u|Religião, Política e Futebol}} and {{u|ZanderAlbatraz1145}} have both been edit warring at ] over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration.
	There is a bit of a BLP issue going on here, new editor calling various academics (they are not BTW). He has added the content three times now, I have posted to his talk page twice and the article talk page also, can an admin give him a poke please? ] (]) 20:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. ] (]) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	(ec)Further to this, there are source misrepresentation, "Many newspapers and inquiry commission pointed this as targeted attack on Hindu Pilgrims returning from Aayodha" is entirely wrong, only one commission has said the attack on the train was pre planned. ] (]) 20:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. ] (]) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. ] (]) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at ], not here. ] (]) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{re|Sundayclose}} Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says, {{tq|This complaint is not about the content directly}}. We are not discussing the content you're disputing, but it would be great if you did try to gain some consensus at the article talkpage. ] (]) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Though I honestly thought I'd waited too long to take further steps to protect a highly-viewed article, fair enough. PP has helped over the weekend: while IMO the history is easy enough to follow in terms of seeing what would have been needed for immediate preventative/protective measures, yes it is a bit more complicated. Full post to follow. ] (]) 12:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*There have been numerous edits to the ] article since 4 January, when it was announced her husband had died, later declared a suicide. Most of the edits revolve around adding this information and how to describe her husband in the rest of the article. Most seem to be well-intentioned, don't all meet best practice for BLP editing, but generally can be resolved with corrective edits.
	:Someone is trying to remove the properly cited content to make the text one sided. Every sentence added is cited and there are court verdicts which are important issue for this article. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			*Separately, since 29 December, some users have been attempting to add a lot of '''information about the BLP subject's ethnic background and non-notable extended family'''.
			**The first edit to add this information was on 29 December by IP {{u|94.63.205.236}}. This was bot-reverted for the bad source. The same IP reinstated the edit moments later. Diffs:
			**{{ping|Sundayclose}} Then reverted the edit later that day, again with sourcing concerns. Diff: Sundayclose also warned the IP about BLP, and the IP went dormant.
			**During all the editing on 4 January, another IP, {{u|74.12.250.57}}, changed some of this info (describing Ashkenazi Jewish as Native American) for probably malicious reasons: - while another, {{u|2600:1000:b107:a865:e028:5f95:de45:c803}}, removed some of the ethnic background info with a strange edit reason ("Updated"):
			**The article was then confirmed-protected for two days.
			**On 10 January, {{ping|Religião, Política e Futebol}} made two edits (that for content purposes we will consider as one) to reinstate, and further expand upon, the information on family and ethnic background. Edits:
			**Another IP, {{u|2a00:23c6:ed85:7d01:3d25:a335:96f5:4b40}}, undid the edits on 10 January, again with sourcing and BLP concerns. Diff:
			**On 14 January, Religião reinstates their version without explanation. Diff:
			**On 15 January, I (Kingsif), undid this with the same source/BLP concerns. I also mention more specifically what could be BLP issues, and recommend using the talkpage to discuss the edit. Diff:
			**Also on 15 January, Religião adds the information back. In their edit reason, they seem to acknowledge the BLP specifics I mentioned but then claim that their content is not an issue. They also say that they don't need to discuss. Diff:
			**On 16 January, I (Kingsif), again remove the information. I address the content and sourcing concerns more forcefully, and the need for discussion. I warn Religião that their behaviour in the circumstances constitutes edit warring. Diff:
			**Also on 16 January, Religião once again added back the content. Their edit reason asked why they can't add personal information on non-notable people: a lack of knowledge of BIO policy, but unwillingness to do anything about that instead of edit-war. Diff:
			**I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
			*In regards to '''the mention of Baena's suicide''', this was first added shortly after it was first reported on 4 January.
			**{{ping|DiaMali}} did much of the immediate updating, including adding and removing this before it was confirmed. Diff:
			**Over the next two days, the mention was removed and reinstated by various other users based on industry sources/lack of confirmation. E.g.: , ,
			**The edit-warring really began on 6 January, when {{ping|Ibeaa}} removed the mention. At this point, the suicide had been confirmed, and Ibeaa did not provide a reason. Possibly worth noting is that Ibeaa's edit was made the exact minute the article's protection was removed. Diff:
			**On 7 January, IP {{u|2804:d41:cb23:cc00:f4ae:3bc:747e:e196}} adds it back. Diff: Also on 7 January, Ibeaa removed it and the reference without explanation. Diff:
			**The next user to re-add the info was {{ping|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}, who also did not use an edit reason, on 9 January. Diff:
			**The IP {{u|2800:355:9:f9f3:3059:222e:2783:93b8}} removed it, without an edit reason, on 11 January. Diff:
			**{{ping|Sundayclose}} reverted the IP on the same day. Diff:
			**Ibeaa then removed the mention again, also on 11 January. Diff:
			**Zander then adds it back on 13 January, still without a reason. Not massively relevant, but Zander used the deprecated phrasing {{tq|committed suicide}} for the first time in this edit, which IP {{u|50.71.82.63}} fixed. Diff:
			**Between 13 and the morning (GMT) of 15 January, Zander added and Ibeaa removed the information ''five times each'', no edit reasons in sight.
			***Zander: (above 1), , , ,
			***Ibeaa: , , , ,
			**I (Kingsif) removed it on 15 January, tucked into the BLP edit, to try and stop the pair from edit warring by saying it should also be discussed. I should have probably done them as separate edits. Diff:
			**Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 15 January. Diff:
			**On 16 January, I again removed it as part of the larger edit. I made a clearer separation in this edit reason, to explain that because inclusion is (clearly) contentious, it should be discussed. Diff:
			**Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 16 January. Diff:
			**Ibeaa removes it, without a reason, also on 16 January. Diff:
			**Sundayclose added it back on 16 January, with the explanation that it is {{tq|accurate and properly sourced}}. FWIW, while accurate, it was sourced to People magazine, which ten days earlier was not accepted as a suitable source for the same information at the ] article. Recently-deceased needs more than a celebrity magazine that actually says "unconfirmed but believed". More pressing, I would expect Sundayclose to have pushed for discussion as the inclusion was clearly contentious. Diff:
			**Ibeaa then removed again on 16 January, with the reason that they didn't know why they were still pursuing the edit war. I would have honestly interpreted that to mean they weren't going to continue, but anyway. Diff:
			**Ibeaa's conduct was already reported here at ANI by Sundayclose, on 17 January, and they were blocked quickly. ].
			***I don't know and won't speculate as to why Sundayclose did not also report Zander at this time.
			**After Ibeaa is blocked, Zander continues their side of the edit war on 17 January, still without providing an edit reason. Diff:
			**I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
			**Zander then adds the information back, without starting a discussion, before page protection is applied. They appear to have seen this ANI report, as they included an edit reason. Included in the edit reason is that it didn't seem {{tq|vital enough}} to explain themselves, which I can't accept in good faith given they were going back-and-forth directly with Ibeaa and had been told to discuss since the inclusion had proven contentious. Diff:
			*] (]) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::You haven't addressed the points above. This edit:"the '''2002 Gujarat violence''', also termed as the Gujarat pogrom by the muslim extremists<nowiki><ref></ref><ref></ref><ref></ref> "</nowiki> - where precisely do you get "muslim extremists" from? Who actually calls them that? ] (]) 21:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
			:This is a lot of data. But it seems like if edit-warring is the problem, a complaint filed at ] or a request for page protection at ] would be more suitable than ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] abuse to my userpage and usertalk ==
			::You know I'm not a massive fan of ANI and would really prefer to dump data and let y'all assess it yourselves, but if this is to be pursued beyond the immediate article protection (as you can see, it seems to be a magnet), then as I see it what we have is: one case of not-too-bad edit warring from Religião, but with quite BIO/BLP sensitive information and a user who has indicated they will not abide if they disagree, and then one case of probably fine content from Zander, but with truly chronic edit warring and the attitude that since the other guy was blocked they're righteous. Both users have been informed of BLP-contentious but the intersection of the actual edit warring with their flippant-at-best attitudes and the particular sensitive area, makes me think that some further addressing (at least asking them to ''acknowledge'' the issues) is needed to make sure it doesn't recur. ] (]) 12:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivetop|1=] and his/her sock have been indef-blocked. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:35, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	I have previously reported ] as an obvious sockpuppet of ], but decided to take no further action on my report as I decided to give this user a chance to redeem himself and become a positive contributor to the project. However, he has made abusive comments on both my usertalk and userpage and it's about time his uncivil editing was dealt with. I edit this site and expect both my userpage to be left alone and to be able to use this site without being the subject of abuse from someone who is still the subject of a community ban, which can be seen ]. The latest abuse from today can be seen , with vandalism to my userpage carried out and a personal attack back in August which took a number of months to notice. Now considering this user is banned by the community, I think I've been rather generous in allowing this troll to stay about and prove himself as being mature and to show ], however clearly civility is beyond this individual. The majority of seem to be some creepy stalking of pages I have created (though not against the rules it is nonetheless weird). Going further back he user has made personal attacks against ]. I'm asking that this disruptive editor be dealt with by an admin as quite frankly he's had his chance, is flouting a community ban and is close to driving a long term user away from this site (in the same way he drove away long-term ] editor ]. ] (]) 23:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nonadmin}} Although what he said in your first diff seemed rather rude, the didn't confirm that ''that'' account is actually his after all. Normally I would suggest you go to ], but since you are otherwise retired, I'm not sure you'll feel like doing that. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 02:01, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::My userpage is already protected, as this user previously operated under a number of IPs and so the page was protected so just registered users only could edit it. This was also the case with ] and such was the disruption caused by this individual to the ] project that the project talk page was protected. What would you suggest in getting this disruptive user dealt with? ] (]) 17:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I him/her. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:41, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Actually, I don't know about Richard Daft, but it looks like a is afoot (I didn't open an SPI because this new account hasn't actually made any bad edits, but I'll watch him/her). '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 18:39, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Thanks for the heads up. I have opened an ] and shall add that new sockpuppet to it. ] (]) 23:50, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::I was just about to NAC this, but I decided not to because I'm still not convinced (yet) that either new user is a sockpuppet of Mr. Daft. Thus, the SPI and the incivil statements are two different issues. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 03:14, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Think this can be NAC now, the user in question has been banned and CU found multiple sockpuppets and a probable link to Richard Daft. ] (]) 19:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			== Death threats by 2.98.176.93 ==
	== ] ==
			{{atop
	{{archivetop|status=STALE|1=Both articles have been speedily kept and the user hasn't edited since. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			| status = BLOCKED
	This user has done nothing but create a string of frivolous article deletion requests, which would suggest that he is ]. ] (]) 23:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Although I agree that nominating ] and ] for deletion are disruptive nominations, those are two nominations in two months. I strikes me as premature to characterize this as a "string of ... requests" unless there are deleted contributions that are invisible to non-admin editors. --] ] ] 00:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Two points are sufficient to define a line, especially in the absence of any oher points. But if people want to wait for him to put up a third one before acting, that's OK with me. ] (]) 14:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{nao}} For a new editor to jump into Misplaced Pages with two patently ludicrous AFD nomination can only mean a deliberate troll. Assuming good faith would be a little naive in this case, surely? ]<sup>]</sup> 00:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I'll note that I non-admin closed the ]. ] (]) 00:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::{{ec}} {{nonadmin}} Although I generally try to ], I always get suspicious when a user's ]. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 01:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Debate at ] ==
	{{archive top|1=Not an administrator issue. Seek support at ]. ] (]) 03:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	Over the past two weeks or so a debate has been going on at ] over what position the article should take in stating whether or not Santa Claus is a palpable entity, most of which can be seen ]. While the discussion initially started over which adjective best fit the introductory sentence (the debate primarily focused on using "fictitious", "fantasy", "mythical", or some combination of these), it has since evolved into dispute about the entire article's focus on the reality of Santa Claus of which the editors involved seem to be almost equally divided for and against. currently used in the article confirm Santa Claus as non-existent (although the credibility of the about.com source could be questionable).
	Ultimately, I would like to know how to advance in this situation as well as receive the opinions of non-involved editors. ]]] 01:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:The reality of Santa is an ongoing contentious issue. Some believe he's real, some believe he's fake. "Mythical" is usually acceptable to both. You appear to want the article to be "Santa-denying" which is a non-neutral POV. I hope you had a merry Christmas, or whichever winter (northern) holiday(s) you celebrate. ] (]) 02:24, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I don't believe that explicitly stating that Santa Claus is a fictitious character does not violate NPOV as per the citations provided. That being said, thank you and I hope you have also had an enjoyable holiday season. ]]] 02:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::<small>If you don't believe in Santa, you're not going to get any gifts for Christmas.</small> ] (]) 02:30, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:The Big Ol' Guy is based on the historical St Nikolaos and is a figure central to traditional seasonal festivities. So mythical rather than fictional. ]<sup>]</sup> 02:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	I'm on vacation with limited access to the Net but since I was notified and was the editor involved at the start of the discussion on the talk page I have to ask: This is at ANI? Seriously? This is a ''content'' dispute. Look at ] for the steps you can take. --] <sup>'']''</sup> 03:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Yup, agreed. There is no action needed here from the administrators. ] (]) 03:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	Related: ]. --] (]) 20:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	== On ] ==
	{{archivetop|1=Listed at ]; subsequently removed and addressed by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:02, 27 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	On ], a user ] is reverting the years old content for almost no described reason, except "advertising", once tells me to bring to talks, and then reverts without even discussing, saying "stop edit warring." I find it obvious ] issue. Because every single removed sentence is sourced, and doesn't claim any dubious. ] (]) 03:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I have problems with both editors on this one. I find at least some of the sources used by Bladesmulti to be highly questionable, as for example from the ] which isn't really suitable material anyway (it's an '']'' for constructing a supposedly Christian form of pantheism), but even then it is being used to justify a statement which it implicitly disputes (it admits in the first sentences that Christianity is in general ] rather than pantheistic). That said, NaturaNaturans's sense of ownership of the article is extreme. It takes two to edit-war, and here we have those two. ] (]) 04:02, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Sorry ], I haven't posted "http://www.pantheism.net/paul/history/gospel.htm", it's some other editor who did. I only added the sources to single section. Not any other. Look properly. ] (]) 04:12, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::If it appears that I am claiming 'ownership' of the page, I apologize. That is not my intention. Bladesmulti is attempting to add obscure information about Hinduism and even put up a Hindu plant as the lead picture of the page about pantheism. It's silly. ] (]) 04:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::: Huh, i only sourced the years old information, because it was removed by you. Other than that if the plant has polytheistic values, how it cannot be added. ] (]) 04:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::{{nonadmin}} This issue seems more suitable for ]. (Incidentally, I give third opinions quite often, but this is such a touchy subject that I'm going to let someone else try and sort it out.) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 05:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::: at ]. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 05:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== RoslynSKP breach of Arbcom restriction ==
	{{archivetop|status=Wrong place|result=Please file at ] <small>]</small> 03:10, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	During a recent ] case closed on 23 December 2013 {{user|RoslynSKP}} was restricted in reverting ] RoslynSKP is prohibited from making any more than one revert on any one page in any 72-hour period. They appear to have broken that restriction over 26/27 December.
	# reverted
	# reverted
	# reverted
	# reverted
	] (]) 08:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:RoslySKP has been notified of discussion. ] (]) 08:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Yes, those are all reverts, with the added distraction that the normally suggested "Undid revision" or "Reverted edit" summaries have been purposefully changed to appear like good faith edits were being made. This is not only in breach of ArbCom's revert sanction, but their finding that inaccurate edit summaries were being made ] – this is a clear repeat of that behaviour, only RoslynSKP has attempted to make it appear more subtle. <span style="text-shadow:1px 1px 2px DimGray">''']'''</span><sup>'''{]}'''</sup> 09:03, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	*It appears to me that the situation is more complex than Jim Sweeney is presenting it, and he is leaving out that the article contained a sourced reference to the unit's involvement in Gallipol - , which Sweeney's edit removed - , and that he then edit warred with RoslynSKP in order to keep that accurate information out of the article. This could be read as an attempt by Sweeney to incite RoslynSKP into an edit war, and then get her topic banned. I think it might make sense if both Jim Sweeney and RoslynSKP were put on a clear and simple 0RR, and if either breaks that, then they get blocks of increasing duration. These blocks would be distinct from any blocks related to the ArbCom case remedy. It is difficult in a dispute where two people have been in conflict to restrict one and not the other. One sided solutions can end up with situations as we have here. ''']''' ''']''' 11:37, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Comment (and I declare myself as one who has edited the article at times, and had views opposite to those of RoslynSKP) - re No. 1 Gallipoli edit. That some constituent units of the Division had served in Gallipoli is in the article (first sentences of the "Formation" section), is not disputed, and JimSweeney had not removed that from the article. He had removed reference to it the lede with the summary "misleading suggests the division fought at Gallipoli" ] (]) 12:05, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Incidentally, as a breach of an arbcom-imposed restriction, I think this would normally be raised at ] rather than here? (Although, since it's now here it presumably might as well stay here.) --] (]) 12:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::The inclusion of Gallipoli in the lede has also been discussed on the talk page ] and ] The second link from 21 December ''The division never served in the Gallipoli campaign so to mention it in the lead is way off focus. Can you self revert or provide a reason it should be there''. And @ SilkTork ''in order to keep that accurate information out of the article. '' there is no reference that the division fought at Gallipoli as it was formed after that campaign had ended. so I did not removed sourced content. ] (]) 12:17, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	*"This could be read as an attempt by Sweeney to incite RoslynSKP into an edit war, and then get her topic banned." – No it couldn't. Given that ArbCom laid down a specific sanction of "one revert per page in any 72 hours" and RoslynSKP has clearly made four reverts, and not only that but attempted to mask those reverts with friendly looking edit summaries, and not only that but within days of the ArbCom ruling, this isn't a question of whether she was baited into war editing, but that she has acted against ArbCom's decision and attempted to conceal it. Looking at what content was changed and ignoring the actual editor's behaviour is completely missing the point; the ArbCom ruling focused on behavioural issues not content. Am I seriously seeing here that after all that trouble to secure an ArbCom ruling those behaviours are being ignored, because the longer ANI prattles on about content changes rather than ArbCom breaches the wider the time gap becomes between incident and reaction, making any call for a block to actually enforce ArbCom's sanctions too distant to be applied, giving RoslynSKP more reason to flaunt ArbCom on a later date. In short, we're repeating history here by wasting so much time on the wrong issues that the real concerns are being cast aside and offenders unpunished. I appreciate that SilkTork took time to look for any signs that RoslynSKP was baited by Jim, but you can't really claim that four concealed reverts was the result of a minor provocation. <span style="text-shadow:1px 1px 2px DimGray">''']'''</span><sup>'''{]}'''</sup> 14:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	**{{U|MarcusBritish}} sit down, have a biscuit. Your hysterics are doing nothing to resolve the issue, but inflame it more. I'm going to propose that since you're looking for an arbitration remedy to be enforced, that you and {{U|Jim Sweeney}} file an Arbitration Enformcement action and specifically ask for expedited enforcement as the issue has already been discussed somewhat and the detatchment from the offenses is growing. ] (]) 21:56, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::There are no hysterics here and nothing to inflame, so a little less of your hyperbolic cheek, laddie. The terms of RoslynSKP's sanctions include a ] – I can only propose that ANI haven't got the compunction to act on it despite the evidence above. All those admins "willing to make difficult blocks". So far in 2-years, not one has had the gall to do that in this case, and now there are ArbCom initiatives granting blocks they still don't. Now, if you're only interested in your wiki-career and not the particular concerns at hand, please do not waste my time pinging me with frivolous remarks about biscuits, you'd do better to look who is actually at fault in this matter by reading the evidence given above instead of idly parading yourself in an attack on others interests just to create unnecessary drama for yourself. <span style="text-shadow:1px 1px 2px DimGray">''']'''</span><sup>'''{]}'''</sup> 22:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	* Responses to Jim Sweeney -
	1. This is not a revert. Jim Sweeney had undone an edit by me claiming it was misleading as it suggested the division fought in ANZAC. I redrafted the information to ensure that it was the men who were being described, not the division.
	2. I replaced the word "defeat" with "stopped" as no territory was lost and the EEF occupied the position unopposed the next day.
	3. I reinstated part of the information cut by Jim Sweeney to do with the direct quote as the paraphrase is misleading. This was not a straight revert, as I did not include the information about the Vilayets also cut by Jim Sweeney.
	4. As the inbox did not include any battles, only the name of the campaign, I added three notable operations per the Template guide. This was not a straight revert as Jim Sweeney cut the ], the ] (not mentioned in the Battles subsection) and the ]. They were replaced by Battle of Romani, Southern Palestine Offensive and ] (not mentioned in the battles subsection}. For some reason Jim Sweeney cut these notable battles from the infobox. Even in the body of the article, in the Battles subsection, Jim Sweeney has cut mention of the ] and the ].
	I have attempted to discuss these issues and more, on the Talk page here , here , here , here , here and , without any response. --] (]) 00:08, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:: You've obviously never read the definition of a ] ... and how the clearer definition in ] applies quite clearly to ]. You've totally violated your restriction ... unbelievably, really <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:40, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::: ... and in case you miss it: ''"A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material"'' <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Never having read all the guidelines on Misplaced Pages, and never having been directed to these links before, I thought a revert was undoing the whole edit by someone else. --] (]) 00:55, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{ping|RoslynSKP}} At ] you began ''seven threads'' in ''three days'', each complaining about various content issues, including one called "Ownership issues" made against {{U|Jim Sweeney}} on 26 December. Despite the intentions of the ArbCom case to lessen the disputes, you have in fact only continued to escalate your behaviour further, including your surreptitious reverts – you've been on Wiki for 3.5 years, there is ''no way'' you can claim not to know what qualifies as a revert except by playing ignorant and hoping it will be seen as "a simple mistake" along with all your other "mistakes" noted on ArbCom. And do you seriously think seven disputes is reasonable and not overly presumptuous? And why are you complaining that no one replied quickly enough.. it's the Xmas/New Year period, people often have other things to do during this period that run around responding to a shopping list full of your disputes. You don't need to have "read all the guidelines" to have a little common sense, and there's nothing to stop you looking up a guideline or policy ''before'' committing to an action, as it's usually ANI that leads you to regret in retrospect. For someone who has "all the answers" from a period 100 years old, you sure lack the skill to find answers to being a better editor in the Misplaced Pages pages, as you're quickly heading yourself towards unsuspending that topic ban ArbCom proposed. <span style="text-shadow:1px 1px 2px DimGray">''']'''</span><sup>'''{]}'''</sup> 02:08, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	===Arbitrary section break===
	Since most of us just came from Arbcom, let me post this here:
	An arbitration case about the behaviour of {{user|RoslynSKP}} with regards to the use of the terms 'Turkish' to 'Ottoman', has now closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
	{{quotation|1=<nowiki></nowiki>
	#{{user|RoslynSKP}} is indefinitely prohibited from changing 'Turkey' or 'Turkish' to 'Ottoman' on any article.
	#{{user|RoslynSKP}}'s topic ban from "editing any article relating to Turkish military history in and predating World War I" is suspended and will be unsuspended (and the prohibition will take effect) if any uninvolved administrator blocks RoslynSKP for misconduct relating to Turkish military history. If the block is reversed or repealed by any of the usual community channels of appeal, the topic ban will lapse back into suspension.
	#RoslynSKP is prohibited from making any more than one revert on any one page in any 72-hour period.
	#For a period of one year, RoslynSKP is prohibited from adding maintenance tags, such as {{tp|POV}}, to any article or section of an article without first raising her concern on the talkpage and obtaining the agreement of at least one other editor that the tag is appropriate.
	#{{user|Jim Sweeney}} is reminded to avoid edit warring, and to use dispute resolution to assist in resolving disputes.
			| result = Blocked and TPA revoked, nothing further. {{nac}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	}}		}}
			{{userlinks|2.98.176.93}} Left a death threat {{diff||1270338492|1270334632|here - diff}}<br />
			] (]) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Note: 30 day block by {{user|Bbb23}} ] (]) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Death threat left after block. Talk page access? ] (]) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*TPA removed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think {{tl|Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. ] (]) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If you use ], you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Exactly, ], thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See ] for your options." ] (]) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Repeated copyvios by Manannan67 ==
	Now there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Roslyn is in breach of arbcom mandated restrictions. Whatever else may be debated above, the fact that more than one revert occurred here means that the first uninvolved admin has an ethical obligation to block RSKP in accordance with an arbcom mandate, and the longer the guilty party goes without a block the worse this is going to get. We can sort the greater whole of this mess out later, but right now we need that block. ] (]) 03:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Manannan67}}
	{{archivebottom}}
			] has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (, , from ], , ),
			most recently , when I discovered a they placed on . The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did one early warning from the talk page. ] (]) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			: The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to ] which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. ] (]) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	== IP user is still causing problems at a talk page ==
			::See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to ]. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. ] (]) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivetop|1=I agree, but as you know, this is . I'll move your comment up to that discussion next. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			::: It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." ] (]) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{User|212.174.38.3}} has been treating the talk page like a forum the past week or so. S/he has been edit-warring over libel remarks which is not helpful in building an encyclopedia. The user has already been warned on his/her talk page a few hours ago. This is the second time I am here at ANI in the past 24 hours. The talk page has already gone through page protection due to the problems caused by the user. Numerous users have done everything they could to tell him or her to stop treating[REDACTED] like a forum and to please talk about how to build a better encyclopedia. Unfortunately, that hasnt been done yet. Proper action against the user is required asap. ] (]) 08:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. ] (]) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			::::: Then I have no idea to what you are referring. As I said, I am not familiar with "Portraits of the Saints", nor do I know from where they got their info. ] (]) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Naniwoofg ==
	== Addition of unsourced claim to ] by ] ==
			{{User|Naniwoofg}} has been the subject of a complaint at ] for issues involving images and ]. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint includes refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. ] (]) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	I removed the unsourced claim (that Iran is the world's oldest country) from List of top international rankings by country. However, the ip user, ], keeps reverting my edit by claiming the linked article ] as a citation. There is no claim on that page that Iran is the world's oldest country. There is only a statement that Iran is one of the world's oldest civilizations. However, the ip user either doesn't understand the difference or just doesn't care. In anycase, they keep adding back in the unsourced claim. I've given the user 4 warnings already, but they've ignored it. ] (]) 09:31, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nonadmin}} I would normally suggest ], but it appears that the content the IP is adding is clearly wrong (and the angry edit summaries aren't helping matters either). However, s/he hasn't edited anywhere since Dougweller's final warning, so let's just see what happens. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:33, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I was just about to NAC this, but I noticed that earlier today the IP made . I don't know enough about this topic to determine if the edit is legit or not though; would anyone else like to check it out? '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 02:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
			:Can we get a follow-up on this? @] has failed to respond to all inquiries on affected article talk pages, their user talk page, and the Tambayan PH talk page. We have been reverting their unexplained and unusual edits to the infoboxes of several Philippine road and building articles back and forth for the past few days. ] (] • ]) 07:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Newby posted BLP on user page ==
			:'''Support''' sanctioning this user. One latest questionable edit is on ] article, which . Naniwoofg claimed to had updated the infobox images, but the user used an image of the ] ''before the 2019 renovation''. I replaced Naniwoofg's choice of the church image with the one image taken after the renovation. <span style="font-family:Footlight MT">] <span style="background:#68FCF1">('']''|'']'')</span></span> 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivetop|1=Article has been deleted due to expired BLPPROD. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:42, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	The business article they started has been deleted and the BLP, repeated on his user page, ] is likely to be deleted also. There's a chance this is the subject of the article who founded the company and doesn't yet understand Misplaced Pages. See ]. ] (]) 10:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			== User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to ]], maybe more) ==
	:The user page is not problematic. The mainspace article about the person, ], has a BLP PROD template on it. Administrator action doesn't seem to be needed until the clock on that runs out. (It doesn't seem to meet the A7 criterion.) I've added a conflict of interest notice to the existing warnings/notifications already on the user's talk page. --] (]) 12:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Cherkash}}
	: The "article" needs to go long before the expiry of a PROD, the userpage is ''bordering'' on promotion. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 12:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see ], ]). </br>
	::I looked for sourcing but found very little, although sources certainly may exist in another language. I didn't see anything as violating BLP on the article so maybe it's just too early for that subject. ] (]) 19:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::: Just a wholly non-notable person who thinks this is LinkedIn <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 23:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::I deleted the article as an expired prod and added the <nowiki>{{userspace}} and {{__NOINDEX}}</nowiki> tags to his userspace. ] (]) 06:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the ] pages and even had raised the issue here , with no visible actions following.
	== Editor creating multiple vanity pages on their family members ==
	{{archivetop|1=Blocked for 48 hours by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	] is accumulating multiple pages on himself and various family members (see the ]), a process he seems intent on continuing despite being . (See also the deleted Talk page entries.) ] (]) 15:36, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg
	== Possible sockpuppets at ] ==
	{{archivetop|1=Discussion has been moved to ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 01:59, 2 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	My experience with sockpuppeting POV-pushers has been pleasantly minimal, so I'm hoping those with more experience with wikiconflicts can help me out here.
			They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints.
	] is a ], and several fantastic contributors (particularly {{u|Ealdgyth}}) made it a Featured article and have worked hard to maintain its quality. Recently, {{u|Sumatro}} and {{u|JanHusCz}} have been tag-teaming there to promote Bulgaria's importance, deteriorating the article's quality and engaging it edit wars with several other editors. Ealdgyth brought the situation to my attention, opining "This is the sort of crap that drives good content editors away." So I did a little research, and here's what I found.
			Other examples can be seen from ], such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: ,
	In May of this year, {{u|Ceco31}} was ] from anything relating to Bulgaria, and was blocked from all edits (account creation blocked) for 3 months. (].) His last edits were to editwar on ]. He did not return under that username when his 3-month block was lifted, but Sumatro showed up in August instead, immediately using rather complex Wikisyntax and engaging in an editwar right off the bat at ]. It sure looks like a topic-ban-evading sock to me. Sumatro edited nothing but the Bulgarians article all month, then in September switched to ], a model, where he's only interested in the "Bulgarian nationality and citizenship" aspects. He editwarred there, and edited nothing but that one article for months. Meanwhile, JanHusCz also showed up on Misplaced Pages in September, and after the 4 days and 12 edits it takes to get auto-confirmed, he immediately set about at ] making the same sort of changes as Sumatro, using wikisyntax and citing Misplaced Pages policy like a pro. Both quit Nina in early December and set on ] together, edit warring to emphasize Bulgaria there. Despite agreeing completely, and reverting to each other's versions, they never once use each other's talk page or really reply to each other on article talk pages. I have no doubt that both Sumatro and JanHusCz are sockpuppets (or at least meatpuppets) of the topic-banned Ceco31.
			The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN ], ], ], ].
	JanHusCz has been blocked for 24 hours for a 3RR violation, but I think permanently blocking all three accounts for evading a topic ban would be appropriate. I'm not directly involved with any of these users or articles, and my only interest is in protecting vital, featured articles in general. Is it okay for me to simply block the accounts? Are there any hoops I need to jump through first? Thanks for any assistance. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 15:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content.
	:{{nao}} Shouldn't a request for checkuser be opened first to determine whether they are the same editor, or could you or another admin simply block these accounts because they are ]? ] (]) 15:47, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			] (]) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? ] (]) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the ], e.g. about normalising ], and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in ].
			::I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via ''de facto'' statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often ], which I cannot even comment on. ] (]) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Here is a link to the last time this was raised here.
			:::The short form: there appears to be a dispute between use of de-facto or de-jure borders. That is why Taiwan comes up. Some editors appear to believe that it is more neutral to either use de facto borders (Taiwan independent, Crimea not part of Ukraine) rather than de jure borders (Taiwan = China, Crimea = Ukraine).
			:::I would suggest, whether de facto or de jurw borders are used the map should be consistent in that usage. I would also suggest that {{User|Unas964}} should adhere to ] while {{user|Cherkash}} needs to start communicating with other editors at least minimally, which will likely ease such assumptions regarding their editing.] (]) 19:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::In any case, what's the alleged misbehaviour here? We can't stop an editor uploading images on commons, nor can we do anything about what is in their categories. We can prevent these images being used in our articles but is the editor actually the one putting them in our articles? ] (]) 23:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I am the editor in question. I am Ukrainian. This is not anti Ukrainian, it’s anti nazi. Everything is true and properly sourced. Problems don’t get fixed unless you recognize them. I’ve given specific criticisms about the encyclopedia that are all true and added known contributors. This is not a anti Ukrainian effort and I’m very taken back by this accusation. Clearly nobody here is assuming good faith ] (]) 17:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Note that I believe the IP editor above mistakenly posted in this section instead of at .-- ]<sup>]</sup> 00:18, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Occupation of Crimea is anti nazi? What proper source can prove that? Only Russian propagandists exploit such a narrative. ] (]) 18:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{Out}}UN Resolutions are not Misplaced Pages guidelines. They're not even binding for the countries involved, let alone Misplaced Pages. UN Resolutions do not recognize Taiwan nor Israeli current borders, yet we recognize their independence and their ''de facto'' territories in out articles. ''De jure'', there's no Taiwan, and Israel is still at war with Iraq since 1947. ''De jure'', the ] violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union. Do we care? Misplaced Pages focuses on facts, the ''de facto'' state of the world, not bound by temporary laws made by temporary entities which often don't even recognize each other: according to Bhutan, ''de jure'' there's no Croatia; according to Greece, there's no Northern Cyprus; according to Serbia, there's no Kosovo; according to the UN, there's no Taiwan... should we follow them? Of course not. You're free to be pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian, as long as you stick to facts. ] (]&nbsp;<b>·</b> ]) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:My only horse in this race is that Misplaced Pages should be consistent, at least at the level of any given artifact (such as a map), of showing either de jure borders, de facto borders or no borders at all. It is non-neutral to pick and choose de facto for thee, de jure for me. ] (]) 14:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	::This looks duck-worthy to me, but I have little experience with this. Also, I just saw that {{u|Only}} opened a (partial) sockpuppet investigation at ], but that doesn't mention Ceco31 or the topic ban. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 15:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			::{{re|Simonm223}} Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their ''de facto'' state. ] (]&nbsp;<b>·</b> ]) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Taiwan is de facto independent and de jure non-independent so I think you may have the terms backward there. However this speaks to my point - the important thing, from a neutrality position, is to stick to a consistent method of parsing these factual questions. Because, in a lot of these cases, it's not a matter of "facts over anything" but is rather making a positive decision which set of facts to prefer. It is a ''fact'' that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine. It is also a ''fact'' that Crimea is not presently being administered by Ukraine and is thus de facto not part of that country. If we have a map that chooses to prefer the de jure condition of Crimea as part of Ukraine and then to use the de facto boundary between China and Taiwan this is now non-neutral. It's Misplaced Pages failing to set a consistent standard and instead going based on vibes.
			:::Standards must be consistent. Ideally these standards should be consistent across the project and documented in an MOS. Failing that these standards should be consistent within any given article. Failing that these standards absolutely must be consistent in an indivisible artifact such as a map.
			:::As a corollary it is ''in favour of Misplaced Pages's neutrality goals'' to prefer a consistent representation of borders, whether that is de facto, de jure or to not show national borders at all (which remains an option). Now I will note that I didn't see much in the way of talk page discussion or of edit summaries from @] - which I pointed out as somewhere they could improve in my original comment - but if Cherkash is, in fact, motivated by wanting a consistent standard for depicting national boundaries on a map then @] has seriously failed to ] by depicting said forwarding of neutrality goals as if it were a hate-motivated attack on Ukraine. ] (]) 15:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{re|Simonm223}} I '''don't''' {{tq|have the terms backward there}}. I literally stated that {{tq|''De jure'', there's no Taiwan}}, and also what I meant for {{tq|facts, the ''de facto'' state of the world}}. Please, work on your reading and comprehension skills before making such accusations. Misplaced Pages requires ]. // and no, '''it is not''' {{tq|a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine}}, as ''de jure'' {{tq|the ] violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union}}, as I had already wrote, because ''de jure'' the ] didn't have the authority to mandate land exchanges among constituent states, power which they only had ''de facto''. Do better. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 03:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Taiwan is not de jure non-independent, de jure inherently requires picking a jure so to speak. It's a ruling from within a legal system, not a natural fact. That said, I agree picking maps with particular borders is not hateful conduct. If there's diffs of something else, it would be helpful to see them. ] (]) 15:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::According to that logic, any war crime or mass genocide could be justified by neutrality and ]. In theory, that does not align with ], since neutrality cannot allow for extremist views. Yet considering the replies here, I conclude that there is a consensus on Misplaced Pages that in the ] the positions of the victim and the aggressor are treated as equal or in favour of the former. ] (]) 17:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration ] (]) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::This is fast reaching ] territory. ] (]) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::We also have ]. ] (]) 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:There is no point in speculating what was legal or not in a totalitarian state, where laws are primarily instruments for maintaining control and suppressing opposition rather than upholding justice (see e.h. ). The soviet/Russian viewpoint on Crimea has the same zero value as the position of Third Reich on the state of Israel. It cannot be attributed to the same weight as of the democratic countries as Ukraine, Israel, the US etc. In the same way, you could justify the ], ], ] and ] by some ''de facto laws''. Soviet regime murdered tens of millions of people, and the current Russian legal system justifies that: not only ], ] and the other indigenous minorities in Crimea, but in oher regions, as well (as e.g. ]). That renders ''de facto maps'' a propaganda instrument of a malevolent state, which could not be accepted on any basis of neutrality.
			:Yet you equalise the positions of tyranical dictatorships and democratic countries while rejecting the UN resolutions. I see this as a violation of ] and consider not to be taken into discussion at all. ] (]) 07:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{tq|''de facto laws''}}? You're way too confused. {{langnf|la|de jure|by (some country's) law}} is the total opposite of {{langnf|la|de facto|by facts, in reality}}. That's the point. Nice list of stuff tho. Have fun. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 08:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I can't help but notice that the editor this complaint is concerned with, Cherkash, hasn't responded and hasn't edited on the project since January 12th and has barely edited in 2025 at all. What was the urgency in posting this complaint right now, ]? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:It is urgent as long as there is the ongoing war undermining the Ukrainian territorial integrity. If Misplaced Pages policies (],] etc) allow for undermining the legacy of Ukrainian state in favour of the aggressor, which such maps do under some ''consensus'' or ''de facto bodrers'' pretexts, then indeed it has no sense.
			*:If not, I shall propose to remove all of those maps in all relevant articles, treating them as tools to normalise the occupation of Crimea. ] (]) 07:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I'm a bit concerned that {{U|Unas964}} has committed to continuing to edit in the Russia-Ukraine war CTOP after being informed of the ECR restriction. This includes , regarding ] "pro-Russian attacks." at this thread among other diffs that I will leave off as being, you know, quite visible already in this conversation. I am concerned that they have a ] mentality since their edit summary on my attempt to point them to ] was reverted with an edit summary of - very similar to the previous pro-Russian attacks" comment. People are free to clerk their own talk pages as they see fit but to characterize "The encyclopedia, in fact, tries to be neutral regarding global conflicts, cleaving to what reliable sources say about those conflicts but generally making sure to attribute any notable opinions on the conflict to the opinion-holder," as pro-Putin is a bit of an alarming response as is responding to concerns regarding canvassing by accusing the editor of pro-Russian attacks. I am worried that Unas964, as in their interaction with Cherkash that led to this thread, is incapable of assuming good faith and also seems unwilling to comply with ECR restrictions surrounding the war in question. ] (]) 13:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I can confirm that - yes - I consider multiplying warnings and threats to me without any try to search an alternative or copromise a pro-Russian stand. I see no support either, only bullying to preserve the status quo of the pro-Russian view on the matter. ] (]) 14:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Proposal - short duration block for Unas964===
	:::I don't know anything about Ceco31 or the topic ban, so please feel free to make additions to /move my sockpuppet investigation request. I was tempted to pull the trigger on a duck block, but leaned towards the SPI for the moment. Any other admin is more than welcome to implement longer blocks if they desire; I have no objection to that. ] (]) 16:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Okay, best I guess if we move discussion over there. ] (] '''·''' ]) 19:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			I am not going to ask for an indef here as I don't really want to bite the newbie but this has gone on for long enough. Unas964 is very aware that extended confirmed status is required to edit on the Russia / Ukraine conflict and yet continues not only to do so, but to do so in a way that is highly confrontational, completely fails to ] and that is replete with ] violations. They have a severe ] mentality and hasten to accuse anyone who attempts to ''help them understand'' concepts such as ] of being Putinists. I think it's high time that they are demonstrated that such behaviour will have a consequence. A tban is inappropriate because this editor already should not be editing in this CTOP. So that really only leaves us with a block to get their attention and to hopefully stem this disruptive behaviour. ] (]) 18:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Advertisement?? ==
			:'''Support''' I completely agree with everything Simonm223 mentions. I also want to add that Unas964 doesn't seem to be taking others' rebuttals into account. Instead, he just either brushes them off or completely disregards them, as can be seen in basically whole thread. Just scroll down and you'll see what I mean. ] (]) 19:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:Edward Myer ==
	I see a rather racist "advertisement" on the page ] (here is a ). Is this intended, an error, or has something got hacked on wikipedia? - ] <small>(] &#124; ])</small> 15:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Also, here is the talk page that the link at the bottom of the ad links to: - ] <small>(] &#124; ])</small> 15:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Weird, it's in the html page source, but can't be edited from within the article. Photo is ] (]) 16:00, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::My guess is that one of the templates that is being used in the page has been vandalized. Finding which one may be a little challenging. - ] <small>(] &#124; ])</small> 16:03, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	It appears to be vandalism of the {{tl|Infobox Chinese}} template. I used only that template, with no parameters filled in, at ], and the ad shows up. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 16:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Found and reverted at {{tl|Infobox Chinese/Footer}} --] (]) 16:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Nice work. Was that a coordinated attack by a political group, or just a hoax? If it was the former, the problem will surely reappear. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 16:12, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Great! Thanks. :) May be drop a notice at https://test.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Advertising_on_Wikipedia ? And I agree with Quadell. - ] <small>(] &#124; ])</small> 16:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Left a note there, though who knows if people will read it or not. The other problem is it took purging the pages to clear the "ad" off of it and I probably missed quite a few, if not most. --] (]) 16:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Ok, here is the backlink for the template: . Let's look through the pages in the list and purge them. I'll do my bit. - ] <small>(] &#124; ])</small> 16:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Is the test.wikipedia.org site linked in these "adverts" which are still showing up actually owned by[REDACTED] or is it just some troll? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:36, 27 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:::::::The Test Misplaced Pages is where the developers test new things before doing a mass deployment, I think at least, and is owned and operated by the Foundation --] (]) 16:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I have blacklisted the page that they keep linking to, in hopes that it will start to calm this down, but we'll see. --] <small>(])</small> 17:03, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I have also created abuse filter 600 which should detect and block such edits, a little more generically. --] <small>(])</small> 17:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Thanks! It seems almost all the pages using the template (several thousands it seemed) have been purged. Just wondering: Was all of it done manually or is there is a bot/script at the disposal of the admins that helped with that? - ] <small>(] &#124; ])</small> 17:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Modifying a template actually queues a purge on all the pages, but they get stuffed into the job queue. Depending on traffic, it could take a long time before those purges actually happen. If the job queue isn't that long, though, it happens quickly. "action=purge" just forces it to happen immediately. --] <small>(])</small> 18:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	Here's another one, http://en.wikipedia.org/Cultural_revolution ] (]) 18:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Edward Myer}}
	== ] and IP 124.124.22.142 ==
			{{u|Edward Myer}} was recently ] for two weeks, for creating a sock account to retaliate against myself and another AfC reviewer whose reviews they didn't like. (The socking was just the tip of the iceberg, there's much more to this as ] shows.) That block expired a few days ago, and since then they're back on the war footing, complaining and insinuating ], ] and ]; as well as posting similar stuff on the talk pages of ], ] and ]. I think this needs to stop; for one thing it's a time sink, and I for one really don't care for the belligerence. I don't think I should be the one to indef them, as I'm involved, but I'd be grateful if someone did. --] (]) 18:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I am not involved except insofar as I have declined ], but I saw their behaviour towards others and it made me consider whether I would make a review, especially to decline. A less resilient reviewer might well have avoided it.
	Can someone who has more knowledge of Misplaced Pages policies and editing ability than I do look at ] the page seems to provide a lot of information about this editor that seems like a violation of self promotion. Along with the articles ] and ]. Thank you. ]<sub>]]</sub> 16:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I confess that I am waiting for the invective, and I support {{u|DoubleGrazing}}'s well measured request on that basis.
	:Welcomed (and advised) the new editor. ]] 18:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			:My view is for one final attempt in case they are educable. If they are not then 'final' should mean 'indefinite editing restrictions' 🇺🇦&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp;🇺🇦 18:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Undid many of thier edits. ] (]) 20:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			::They have been ], . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at ]. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. ] ]&thinsp;] 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::To be fair, the sandbox may have a better shot at acceptance! I aways believe in extending my good faith as far as possible. I have seen some remarkable turnarounds by doing so. Obviously there comes a point, but I am not wholly sure we are there yet. 🇺🇦&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp;🇺🇦 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Thanks for taking the initiative in filing this ANI, DG; I was || this close to filing it myself. This user ]. - ] ] 22:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. ] (]) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{smalldiv|1=The above post is a duplicate of that posted at . ]&nbsp;] 22:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Seems like a clear case of ] and just wanting to push an article to mainspace and ] without even citing such. Sounds like a longer block may be necessary. ]&thinsp;] 23:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*], this is serious. Have you read over this complaint? Can you let this grudge go and go on to do some productive editing and let the past be the past? If you continue on this path, I don't see you editing on Misplaced Pages for the long term. This is a moment where you can choose to change your approach and turn around you time here as an editor. But it is up to your willingness to do so. Does that sound like something you can and want to do? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	== User owning and going against Wiki policy and project decision ==
			*:My field of expertise is Hip Hop. I do intend to do other articles on other subjects, and add relevant updates to current live articles. I'm here to be apart of the community and contribute to[REDACTED] in a specific field that I'm passionate about. I hold no grudge or ill will for no one. As I said to LiZ I had to get adjusted to how communication on[REDACTED] works. ] (]) 14:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive top|1=Dispute should be discussed further at ], ] or the article talk page. ] (]) 19:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	] has been ] the ] for a while now, and refuses to let any changes be made. I applied the ] policy and the decision of ] about requiring a one-calendar year gap between appearances to lower ] to the list. And (s)he refuses to let any changes be made than the opinion of their own. This is shown in their long-withstanding edit history. One example: "SoapCentral and twitter are allowed cuz I said so. If you don't like it tough beans". And when they reverted my original attempt, all they could say was "here we go, much better". So it shows this user is not for following Misplaced Pages policy, or a decision made by a project they contribute to. I'm sure their ], but their execution of such over time has not shown that at all. I am merely trying to follow policy, as we're told we should, and the discussion from a project the page is associated with. Nor did the user revert any other edit done, only that done to this one page. Clearly showing ]. ''']''' ] 17:39, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Before any action is taken, I have made a substantial offer of assistance to Edward Myer on their user talk page. I am no-one special to make the offer, and I would like us to take a little time to see if it can be effective before reaching any conclusion. I have had some success before with helping editors who are in pain here. The offer is in the spirit of my early post in this thread. 🇺🇦&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp;🇺🇦 07:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I don't own any articles, the changes are inaccurate, the cast members did not play the characters continously in 2012. The show ended in January 2012, the show picked up again in April 2013, therefore the show was not on for over a year, therefore making it the way I have it, this guy here doesn't know what he's talking about, all he is doing is causing trouble for me, all he does is complain, doesn't do much, if he doesn't like the way sumthin is he complains to this board. That's it. If he doesn't like the way things are than he shouldn't be on here. He's wasted your time on this board again for the 3rd time. I didn't do anything illegal. He always complains. ] (]) 19:13, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			::I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. ] (]) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::We have started to work together. May I suggest respectfully that any other matters be set aside for the duration? They can always be returned to if deemed necessary. My hope is that editors will not feel it to be necessary. 🇺🇦&nbsp;]&nbsp;]&nbsp;🇺🇦 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:My concern is the sock. Edward Myer, do you promise never to sock again? ] (]) 14:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Continual ECP-Violating Posts in WP:RUSUKR area by User_talk:Valentinianus_I ==
	::This seems like it might be more fitting for ]. It appears that some sort of consensus was reached on how to deal with the dates in these articles, and there's dispute right now taht Soapfan2013's edits aren't matching up with that consensus. DRN is probably your best place to settle this right now. ] (]) 19:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Blocked for a week. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|_Valentinianus I}}
			] is an editor with 80 edits as of the moment I'm writing this, the majority of edits made to ] topics.
			* As background, this editor was notified repeatedly by ] in August , and clarified . Melik again notified Valentinianus a month later in response to more edits that were not exempt , .
	::And, Soapfan2013, you're getting a little close to commit ] here with your commentary on livelikemusic. Please be careful and mindful of how you respond to others. ] (]) 19:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::{{ec}} {{nonadmin}} What Only said sounds like a plan to ''me.'' And for the record, LLM, Soapfan2013's was listed on ''General Hospital''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s page, not ''One Life to Live''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::{{ec}} {{ping|Only}}, they've personally attacked me before and were warned by an Admin to not do so, or that'd result an an automatic ban upon them. And the discussion was one calendar year, so for the point to be made, the show would've needed to return in 2014 to make the one-calendar year. But since it went off in 2012 and came back in 2013, it came back within on calendar year. And I've done a lot for this community, so to ] is completely unfair and completely defaming me as a person, and is libelous. I'm not going to be sorry for trying to upload Wiki policy and consensus, which last time I checked, is what this website runs upon. ''']''' ] 19:34, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{outdent}} {{ping|Erpert}} I was merely using that as an example of this user's inability to follow policy and consensus. And also, to be noted, I never ever personally attacked this user in this AfD, yet all they continue to do is personally attack after being told by an Admin to not to such again. Clearly, their anger is not something that should be accepted here at Misplaced Pages and surely their ] should further be looked into. ''']''' ] 19:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			* Valentinianus was blocked for a few weeks in October until ] unblocked them after giving benefit of the doubt. I'm only bringing this up because Rosguill, during the unblock reference notified Valentinianus that they would "like you to confirm that you've read and understand ] by identifying edits that you have made in violation of it, and how you will observe it going forward."
	Hey Look, here's the deal, this is the way my mind works alright? Look I see 1993-2013 and I automatically think that the actress has played the character for 20 years straight, but when I see 1993-2012, 2013, I know that she was off for a year, that's the way my mind works, that's the way it actually happend, I read those links that he posted and I saw nuthin that says I shouldn't do that, Hey I'm just tryin to be accurate here folks, no disrespect attended. ] (]) 19:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Misplaced Pages does not run on how your mind works, though. It runs on basic consensus and policy. We cannot assume what a viewer may or may not know. Consensus reached says we wait one-calendar year. The series ended in 2012 and returned for one more season in 2013, therefore coming back within a one-calendar year. And your reverts also defy ]. ''']''' ] 19:47, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			* ] notified Valentinianus on 1/18 that they were making inappropriate edits in violation of RUSUKR and was violating ] as well . Valentinianus replied that asking for a rename and calling for a subsequent rename vote were edit requests .
	Look Livelike, the show ended on January 13, 2012, the show reboot started on April 29, 2013, which is over than 1 calender year. January 13, 2012-January 13, 2013 is one calender year. April 29, 2013 is over that calender year. Do you see what I'm saying? So therefore it should be 2012, 2013. ] (]) 19:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Nope. Decided per the soap consensus is that one calendar year goes from January 1, 2012 to December 31, 2013. That one be one calendar year of 2012 to 2013. If the show came back in 2014, what you're saying would be right. ''']''' ] 19:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			''After'' that reply to Isabelle Belato (so that there is no question Valentinianus is aware of the latest warning), Valentinianus made five additional edits to ]. None were remotely along the line of constructive edit requests, the problematic ones being to argue that a source is a "Ukrainian shill site" , a project complaint about the infobox , and ] about the bad faith of the other editors on the talk page .
	::Okay, guys, this is a discussion to be having at the article's talk page, the talk page of the SOAP project, or at DRN. It's great conversation is now starting rather than just comments in edit summaries, but I'm going to have to ask you guys to move it somewhere more appropriate. ] (]) 19:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			While in isolation, no individual edit is egregious, this editor has been warned several times about the limits of RUSUKR, and adding ], ] , and ] violations in this area to the number of ] violations, I believe an indefinite topic ban from ] topics, broadly construed, is appropriate.
	:::I still believe this user's conduct should be looked at, as they're still trying to go against consensus and continue to make personal attacks against me, something they've been warned against. ''']''' ] 19:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			] (]) 19:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}
	I don't agree with this being closed. Nothing was resolved and this user is once again not being held accountable for their actions. ''']''' ] 19:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:It's understandable you don't want the discussion closed. But it has been. The issues '''have''' been resolved, and the outcome was: no administrator action required, continue this elsewhere. Have you read '']''? Now might be the time. Pete AU aka --] (]) 23:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			* I've just blocked them for a week instead. If they're ignoring the ECR restrictions, they'll just ignore a topic ban; that's because the reason they're ignoring the ECR restrictions is either ] or the fact that they don't care, and either would apply to a topic ban as well. Perhaps they'll get the message after this block, or perhaps they won't at which point we can look at further sanctions (which, let's face it, is likely to be an indef). ] 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] ==
			*Just noting that the prior block before this was a sockpuppetry block, which I lifted as I found their explanation of how they came to make their edits plausible. The further editing since the unblock as outlined in the block actioned by Black Kite seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivetop|This is already being discussed at the proper venue, 3RRN, and the fight at ] is unproductively spilling over into this forum {{Unsigned|Gamaliel}} }}
			{{abot}}
	Steady edit war at aforementioned article and ] has confessed to being at 3RR. I propose a one week block on MilesMoney for edit warring, a battlefield stance on almost every article he touches, an inability to edit collaboratively and well, a plethora of other reasons. He's not here to edit this project in good faith.--] 18:39, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			*Are we looking at the same editor, ]? Rosguill never unblocked this editor but Beeblebrox did back in December. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Close this. It's being handled at ], where it turns out that Mongo and Gaijin ''lied'' about my edit comment and behavior. Mongo is out to block me using any excuse he can find. ] (]) 18:47, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			::There's a few comments here that seem muldly disconnected from exactly what happened previous to this, but probably not to the point whee it changes the math on this latest block. ] ] 02:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:1. MONGO is involved in the dispute at ]. 2. The material that MilesMoney removed has never had consensus to be included; is only in the article due to edit warring; and has no source which connects the material to the subject of the article. He was entirely correct to remove the material. &mdash; ] 18:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			::It appears I was unclear. I was quoting Rosguill's reminder about RUSUKR in the conversation ''about'' a possible unblock . My point wasn't about the block itself, but that the editor received an additional warning about their edits in that area. I missed including that specific diff. ] (]) 10:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Show me edits that demonstrate my clear involvement. 3RR is not an entitlement.--] 18:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			::: ] (]) 11:35, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I count at least three comments on the talk page. Looks like you're involved. ] (]) 19:04, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:This is already being addressed at ]. Should ordinary Misplaced Pages channels fail to address this matter, then we can explore extraordinary measures. ] <small>(])</small> 19:01, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			== User talk page access, Wiseguy012 ==
	The issue is being discussed (vociferously) on the article talk page, and the page is now protected. <span class="nowrap">&ndash; ] <sup>(])</sup></span> 19:00, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=I'm just going to close this. If Wiseguy012 returns and continues to rant or issues personal attacks, please return to ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Blocked user ] is using their talk page only for the purpose of continuing the rant that they got blocked for at ] and that they continued there as a sock account, {{noping|Friend0113}}, which is also now blocked. See . Revoke user talk page access? ] (]) 01:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Hello, ],
			:There is no ] account. Did you mean someone else? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{noping|Wiseguy012}}, lower g. ] (]) 01:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks CMD. They are just ranting to themselves, not attacking anyone. An admin might come by, review this complaint and remove TPA but I don't find it egregious enough to act. Typically blocked editors can act like this right after they discover they've been blocked but then they move on and leave Misplaced Pages or they start creating sockpuppets and that's a bigger problem than a talk page rant. Too soon to tell right now. But it doesn't seem ANI-worthy to me. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The things some people decide to get mad about.... What they posted on the talk page was a copyright violation in its entirety, so that's gone, and I've warned them for that and let them know further disruption of any kind will cause them to lose talk page access. ] ] 01:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Sorry about the G, and thanks for the guidance about the talk page access. ] (]) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Still misuse of talk page for spamming. ] 07:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That content was posted hours ago and was similar to what was reported here in the complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Caste-based disruption ==
	I don't mind a "spirited" discussion, but a couple people are really heaping abuse on editors.......a continuous barrage of mis-characterizations of what people said and nasty accusations and villianizing built on the mis-characterizations, sarcastic insults, ad-hominem/deprecating editors approaches, while refusing to engage on the particulars, Editors should not have to endure such abuse and I've left the article for at least a breather to avoid such abuse. It's not my style to seek actions against individuals, but could somebody take a look and see if any '''''warnings''''' against such nastiness are merited? Again, a spirited discussion and some disagreement is to be expected, but not a barrage of abuse. Thanks. Sincerely, <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 19:04, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I would think that your ] is a pretty serious abuse. You literally walked away from the discussion rather than acknowledge that policy forbids undue linkage. ] (]) 19:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I didn't have Miles in mind within the "couple people", but their post here is an example.<b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 19:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:This ANI is entirely gratuitous. The article is a mess, but the issues are being dealt with in multiple venues and this appears to be no more than harassment of MilesMoney. This should be withdrawn or closed. MONGO, do the right thing and hold your fire. This just makes you look like a jackass. ]] 19:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{u|HistorianAlferedo}} has engaged in contentious ] style editing in the ] related sanctioned topic area for quite sometime now. The user being repeatedly warned and clearly aware of these sanctions (evident from the removal of warning notices on their talk page) shows no signs of desisting. The editing pattern follows a faux concern of caste promotion by removing genuine well-sourced and known information all the while engaging in ] POV in multiple articles. That the editor isn't new is also evident from the fact that they can handedly cite obscure policies such as ] (of course incorrectly and disingenously). Lisiting some particuarly egregious edits:
	:North8000, please link to the personal attack or stop making accusations.
			*, , , : deliberate insertion of incorrect wikilinks and false removals to obscure that the empresses were Rajput princesses
			*: clearly falsifying an acronym (note the insertion of a dubious reference which nonetheless has nothing to do with the article subject)
			*, , , , : POV caste-based insertions
			*, : POV caste-based removals
			This only a fraction of the tendentious edits in the user's topic warrior style editing related to Indian history and social groups. Not to mention the insertion of multiple non-RS refs when it suits the preferred POV while claiming to remove them in other articles. Considering the history, ediitng restrictions should follow in the form of a ] t-ban or a general one till the user can show that they are not going to be in violation of enwiki policies anymore (all the more necessary considering the IP socking , ). Bringing this to ANI on advice of the editor themselves: . ] (]) 11:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:North8000 has engaged in edit warring and ]. He has responded to simply, polite, on-topic requests for sourcing with accusations that editors are attacking him when no one is doing any such thing. He has been asked repeatedly to provide a source which connects his preferred material to the subject of the article. He has refused to do so and continued to edit war. He is editing tendentiously. No one is attacking North8000; what is happening is that he is unable argue for his position policy-wise and so he chooses to make accusations. His behavior is unacceptable. &mdash; ] 19:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			:], you MUST notify the editor that you have posted this complaint. Please do so. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{done}} ] (]) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Actually i was only editing and adding new information along with genuine citations. I had no motive for any sort of vandalism or anything else. Based on the knowledge about various topics of Indian history i was just trying to contribute in a positive way. Moreover some of the allegations by user Gotitbro are totally irrelevant, i’m not an indian but interested in the topics related to Indian history. New editors should be supported by the old ones and not demotivated with false allegations. Alright, if the old editors don’t want the new ones to contribute to[REDACTED] even in a good way then i’ll definitely even delete my account from wikipedia. Thank you ] (]) 08:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::], I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Okay @]. Please have a look at pages: ] and ] I added relevant information along with scholarly work sources but user:@] just reverted all the changes without even looking at the correct citations. That’s why i thought now i won’t edit and visit[REDACTED] as few users here just try to show off their ranks, there are good wikipedians and administrators too but a few of them are doing this with the new contributors. Thank you ] (]) 15:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== On-wiki hounding, off-wiki soliciting, and severe stalking by ] ==
			I wanted to let go this and move on, but considering my uncertain future with {{u|SerChevalerie}}, I had to take this to ANI.
	There is a current RfC -- which several editors seem not to consider. Removal of a large section before the RfC is complete is "out of process" action, and those editors who were unwilling to allow the normal ] process to work should remove themselves from the article. The only one ''really misbehaving'' here on this noticeboard is ]. SPECIFICO's comments above also are ill-suited to this noticeboard. Cheers. ] (]) 19:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{uninvolvededitor}} If you're referring to , that's pretty heated as it is (although ]ping isn't the way to go either, Mongo). '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:19, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			To give a little background of the editing behavioural problems with the above mentioned editor, it started around late June 2024 when I made this edit . This was followed by his immediate reverts and significant edits . I had no problem with this, as this article was something wherein a third party editor had requested to expand it in a local Misplaced Pages WhatsApp group we were part of.
	:Collect: There was never consensus to include the Nazi material. It was added through edit warring on the part of ROG5728, North8000, Gaijin42 and other ''associated'' editors. &mdash; ] 19:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			Both me and SerChevalerie were part of this WhatsApp group of Wikipedians from ]. Having known each other online for over two years, and we shared the same native state. The problems arrived when he got back active on Misplaced Pages after a break of roughly 4 years and went on serious stalking my edits, the page I contributed, but mainly the pages that I created. As am In ] and I love creating articles, but this was something he went overly critical on.
	There was '''no''' 3RR violation. ] (]) 19:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Battlefield mentality of MilesMoney and a host of others, but he's by far the most disruptive. He's not entitled to 3RR...read the policy. My sole involvement as if that matters since I have never edited the article, was to find out if the article was ever any good or was a POV fork.--] 19:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			From June to August 2024, most of the edits SerChevalerie made were pertaining to the articles that I significantly worked on or created. During this, I was much subject to ] on major of the articles I created such as ], you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just ], arguing by citing essays like ] instead of finding a resolution or just ]. It was until I finally took the decision to take it to ] we reached a consensus after several days of discussion.
	::'''What needs to be understood here is the underlying issue''' - which is whether Misplaced Pages content on the Holocaust should include fringe theories - entirely unsupported by any credible historiography - which attempt to directly link Nazi Genocide with firearms regulations. The fact that the promotion of this 'theory' (which is frankly ridiculous, for multiple reasons) is being promoted on the 'gun control' article rather than in our article on the Holocaust itself is incidental. It is simply untenable for Misplaced Pages to be promoting pseudohistorical propaganda on the Holocaust - propaganda which has clearly been concocted for the purposes of swaying another debate, in another time and place. We owe a duty to our readers (and incidentally to the memory of victims of the Holocaust) not to allow this distortion of history to be presented as anything but the tendentious, cherry-picked and decontextualised concoction that reliable sources report it to be. ] (]) 19:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			Over the course of some 30 articles that I created from June to August 2024, SerChevalerie has made edits which often times were seen as annoying and major stalking behaviour. He also likes to stay at the "top of the order" constantly as you can on articles such as ] as per his latest "copyedit". During this period of two months almost entirely of his edits he has made were only pertaining to my articles.
	== Mass changes to UK addresses ==
			When I had nominated his article ] for SD, he then tried to solicit and I felt harrassed after he took his arguments to ]. Even after saying I don't want to discus this off-wiki he forced it upon me by confronting me in a group of 200-250 Wikipedians and having his arguments posted there. This is the same whatsapp group we were part of. And I have the relevant evidence with me.
	{{user|Narrow Feint}} is a single-purpose editor whose sole contribution on Misplaced Pages is to enforce a particular address format on articles containing British addresses. I have discussed it with him on his talk page and a number of wider discussions have been held about the practice, most recently ], but these discussions have always centred on the various merits of different formats, rather than the merits of mass enforcement of a particular format. While a small majority were in favour of the format Narrow Feint is enforcing, there has never been a consensus to make mass changes to that format. Narrow Feint has decided that the partial support for his preferred format constitutes a right to change all British addresses to that format. I do not believe such mass changes are constructive, and they are not supported by any guideline that I can find.
	It is important to add that Narrow Feint has always been civil, did not continue editing while discussions were being held, and has always denied a nationalist bias and claims not to deliberately concentrate on English addresses. But nevertheless, 100% of his mainspace edits are to remove "UK" from English addresses, even allowing "UK" to remain on Scottish addresses such as in this edit .		SerChevalerie also has undisclosed COI with articles such creating and editing his grandfather's article significantly ] and a suspected COI paid editing on article like ]. I have relevant evidence to support this claim. You can also check the latter's talk page where he claims that he "recreated" entirely on the article after it had some issues when it was created, see
			He also seems to want a Misplaced Pages article on himself by using his connections and other Wikipedians to help him feature on the news (or possibly paid news) see here {{redacted}}. I find this featured article on him rather suspicious as it was published when SerChevalerie barely returned back to editing after 4 years.
	I myself use various address formats for British addresses, including the one Narrow Feint prefers, and I am not concerned here about which format different people may favour; I simply object to mass enforcement of a particular format at the expense of others when there is no policy on Misplaced Pages to support it. ] (]) 18:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nonadmin}} This issue seems more suitable for ]. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Could you explain why? As I say, this is specifically not about the merits of the various formats, it is about whether or not we are happy with mass changes from one to another. ] (]) 19:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Explain why? Sure, because it simply seems like a friendly disagreement (which is more than can be said for issues that are usually brought to this board). Have a good day. :) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Haha, yes, I suppose it is more civil than most. But it's been dragging on for a long time and I would like some concrete guidance on it, something I haven't found anywhere else. Cheers, ] (]) 19:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Should the edits all be reverted? It seems that though this user is civil, their edits are not constructive. ] (]) 19:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I don't think I would agree. An editor making such mass changes without consensus is clearly being disruptive regardless of whether they stop specific instances when called on it. (Consider if this had been an ENGVAR, or date format or BC/BCE issue.) I'm not an admin but frankly the only thing stopping me calling for a block or topic ban is the fact that they perhaps haven't received sufficient warning yet. Discussion should of course using some form of ] if necessary but that doesn't negate the disruption cause by the editor concerned. Ultimately if they can't achieve consensus for any specific usage which wouldn't exactly be surprising for something like this, then they will need to just let it be, regardless of their personal dislike for whatever format. ] (]) 04:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			When I had to quit Misplaced Pages for over 4 months due to my poor mental health because of him, he too wasn't very active on Misplaced Pages as he noticed I wasn't active anymore. You can check his edit history around the months of October and November this made me realise that SerChevalerie might have ] relating to my presence on Misplaced Pages itself. When I returned back to editing in early January this year, I made my first edit on the article ]. The next day he tries to repeat the same behaviour of stalking me and "staying on top" of the page. See . Please note that he didn't have any editing history on this page untill I edited it.
	== Gamaliel removing my comments in violation of TPG ==
	{{archive top|Moving right along. DS, please look before you leap and throw ANI threads and F-bombs around. ] (]) 03:00, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	So Gamaliel is removing my comments from the BLPN board for no reason, and has done so thrice in violation of TPG, do something. ] (]) 21:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			I still feel constantly watched by this editor everytime I am on Misplaced Pages. I want to propose to the community for a block on SerChevalerie or having placed ] on articles that I create so that he stops this behaviour. He also knows my real name and I don't want to get ] or ] by him as we both are from ], India. I'm afraid he might just get my residence address and does any harm. I just want to get rid of this issue and move on. ]<sup>2003</sup>(]) 11:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	He has now reverted my comments for a forth time. ] (]) 21:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			:I haven't looked at everything, and especially not the off-wiki claims, but I get the impression the behavior issues may not be as one-sided as presented.
	:"No reason"? I've repeatedly stated in edit summaries and in talk page conversations with ] that posting the full text of a copyrighted article is both unnecessary (as a link is available) and a copyright violation. Posting an entire article does not fall under ]. As per ]:
			:{{Blockquote|"During this, I was much subject to ] on major of the articles I created such as ], you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had {{Diff|Tsumyoki|1240530309}} as SerChevalerie would just ], arguing by citing essays like ] instead of finding a resolution or just ]."}}
			:In this talk page you're both volleying policy pages, essays, and vague accusations at each other, but the concerns SerChevalerie raised about this article were not unfounded. It starts from something reasonable, and you both escalate at lightning speed.
			:If I look at your interactions, I'm not sure I see the story of one-sided ]. You both edit similar pages and regularly get into arguments.
			:I don't see you trying to disengage with this user either, you've served him three different level 1 warning templates, now you're escalating to ANI with more inflammatory statements. If you're seriously worried about physical harm, please disregard this and rush to ], but at least in the diffs you've linked, I don't see much credible threat of physical harm. ] (]) 14:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:On-wiki evidence here, off-wiki evidence arbcom. Too long to read and wall of text. ] 08:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:TTYDDoopliss and gender-related edits ==
	:* "If a page contains material which infringes copyright, that material – and the whole page, if there is no other material present – should be removed."
			{{atop|result=Indeffed by Canterbury Tail ] ] 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:* "Contributors who repeatedly post copyrighted material despite appropriate warnings may be blocked from editing by any administrator to prevent further problems."
			<br>I just wanted to add that TTYDDoopliss was found to be the sockpuppet of an editor many of us became familiar with last spring on ANI and the Teahouse. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			* {{userlinks|TTYDDoopliss}}
			Summary: Is there a non-male administrator willing to provide some guidance to this editor, particularly in edits related to gender?
	:This matter is quite clear. ] <small>(])</small> 21:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
			The user in question is relatively new. (Yes, an early edit stated she had a previous account, but she used it for roughly one day in December 2024 before {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Teahouse|prev|1265829279|losing her password}}, and she had no warnings at all on the account, so abuse of multiple accounts does not apply here.
	::Yup - a clear breach of copyright. I suspect it might be in DS's best interest to take a Wikibreak, before he is obliged to. ] (]) 21:36, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::(ec)And I told you it was in quotation marks, hence quoted, hence not a fucking copyvio, got that yet? ] (]) 21:37, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::] instructs users inserting copyrighted material in the form of quotations to follow the guideline ], which states that "Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited." The entire article surely qualifies as "extensive". ] <small>(])</small> 21:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Putting quotes around copied text does not auto-magically make it not a copyright violation. Especially when the work is copied in it's entirety. ] (]) 21:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::: Putting quotes round it doesn't stop it from failing ]. Copying an entire article is never going to be able to be passed off as "fair use". Link to it, or quote the relevant section. ] (]) 21:43, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::No, as it was used to make a point, and was not in an article but a talk page, and was obviously quoted and attributed, so not a copyvio by any stretch of the imagination. So admit you are wrong and self revert. ] (]) 21:45, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::: DS, he's not wrong. ] prohibits ''any'' use of copyrighted material in non-article space, quite apart from the main criteria ]. ] (]) 21:46, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Darkness, you are wrong and have been told so by a couple of people now. Go read the policy and drop this. Whether in regular quotes or in fucking quotes, it's not OK. ] (]) 21:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::No, he should have just remove the quote then, not the fucking lot. ] (]) 21:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::DS, you're not on firm ground here. Let's assume you're right that Gamaliel shouldn't have removed the lot, posting a huge bit of copyrighted text is a much bigger deal than blanking a page. No one is going to bat an eye at Gamaliel while the giant threat of legal retribution by the copyright holder hangs in the air. You can quotes bits and pieces, a sentence or two really, of copyrighted text if you are discussing that quote specifically. Bob said "Blah blah blah" about this book; for example. You cannot quote entire pages. There is just no way that Gamaliel is going to be addressed at all because the issue you've brought up is so insignificant in comparison. You really should heed the advice here and back up a step.--v/r - ]] 21:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::Already did what he ought to have done, that is it so far as i am concerned. ] (]) 22:02, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::::DS, the article covered a few unrelated topics. The least you could have done was to extract just the part relevant to Ocean Grove and Scott Rasmussen. I don't know about copyright policy, but that huge block of text was very disruptive to the discussion. ] (]) 22:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			With her new account, she quickly {{Diff|Misplaced Pages:Teahouse|prev|1265829279|received a message alerting her that gender is a contentious topic|diffonly=yes}}, so she is CTOPS/aware of gender issues. After which, she has made edits including:
	== Legal threat from new user ==
	{{archivetop|1=User indef-blocked by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:24, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	See ] and, for background, the deleted version of ] and my reply on ]. I am inclined not to take this threat seriously, but I bring it here for others to review. ] (]) 23:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
	: @ ] - I support your statements on that user's talk page (now blanked), and the indefinite block. The legal threat? What possible basis for it could there be? --] (]) 01:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:The user is obviously ]; I'm not sure any administrative action is needed here. ''']<font color="darkgreen">]</font>''' 01:08, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Georgewilliamherbert blocked under ], which I think is appropriate. ]. ] (]) 02:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::The user erased the block notice. Should it be restored and the user blocked from editting their own talk page, perhaps? --<font color="#111111">‖ ] <sup>]</sup> - <small>]</font> ‖ 03:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Not really necessary. In blanking her current userpage (which contained additional nonsense), I added {{tlx|blocked user}}, which should be good enough notice to other users that she's not going to be responsive. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 07:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			* This sequence of edits to ]:
	== ] amendment of allegiance field on military biographies ==
			** {{Diff|List of media notable for being in development hell|prev|1270570240|Edit summary: ''men don’t be utterly deprived and ruin women’s lives by being a sex pest challenge (don’t revert if you’re a man, you’re disgusting and I want nothing to do with you guys)''|diffonly=yes}}
	{{archivetop|Blocked for 72 hours for obvious edit warring and personal attacks, any repetition of either may require other remedies. ] (]) 21:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			** {{Diff|List of media notable for being in development hell|prev|1270571663|Edit summary: ''Undid revision 1270571008 by C.Fred (talk) how many more women are going to be hurt by continuing to let men like this in the game industry''|diffonly=yes}}
	*{{userlinks|Bardrick}}
			* {{Diff|Dawn M. Bennett|prev|1270573048|To Dawn M. Bennett|diffonly=yes}}, removing an image with the edit summary ''she has cleavage, which means men will want to screw her if they see the image''
			* {{Diff|User talk:TTYDDoopliss|prev|1270578539|To her own user talk|diffonly=yes}}, removing a thread that included warnings with the edit summary ''please leave me alone, im trying to lessen my suffering as a woman in a male-dominated world''
			I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I concede her point that, generally speaking, men in the world have done and continue to do pretty crappy things to women. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to ], and IMO, some of her edits are even going counter to the viewpoint she holds. I also know that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social platform, and I worry that her behaviour, unchecked, will result in her crossing a line that gets her blocked, where an admin, regardless of gender, has to stop the disruption.
	] has been changing the "allegiance" for military biographies of Commonwealth military figures and replacing Canada, New Zealand and Australia, etc with "British Empire".
			I'd like somebody to reach out to her to give her some advice before it gets to that point, and—while I generally think that any editor can do any job on Misplaced Pages regardless of gender—I think this a situation where a non-male or cisfemale administrator should be the one to make the contact. —''']''' (]) 15:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	Recognizing that during WWI and WWII there are some independence ambiguity questions for Commonwealth countries, split discussions at ] and
			:I was going to suggest that if there's any founded concerns a trans woman would get bitten in this hypothetical interaction then we should probably just ] right now. However then I went and looked at the diffs in question and the discussion that was on the user's talk page and I have to ask: has anyone considered this might all be a troll? ] (]) 15:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	] are leading to the conclusion that allegiance field for military biographies should be the associated country. The only topic of debate appears to be whether the inclusion of a flag is a policy violation. There is thus far no one in the participating discussions, other than Bardrick, advocating for the inclusion of "British Empire" instead of the name of the various commonwealth countries.
			::perhaps my useful non-gender related edits might tip you off to the fact that im not a troll? here’s something non-gender related articles i fixed up: ], ], ] ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think this is a straightforward ] or ] block. Misplaced Pages quite a number of women editors and they seem to be fine and don't seem to experience overt persecution. I just don't see how this user can reasonably be expected to collaborate with others, a core requirement of Misplaced Pages editing, if they're just going to accuse everyone else of being misogynists. ] (]) 16:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them ''removing'' mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. ] (]) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yeah, ] in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. ] (]) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@] Hrm. So is the inference that you ''willingly and knowingly'' made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —''']''' (]) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Honestly I don't think you're in any sort of distress at all. As I think, rather, that you are trolling Misplaced Pages and ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 18:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*{{tq|benefit of the doubt}}{{snd}}Pardon me, but what doubt could there possibly be? ]] 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Surprised they weren't blocked after the vast majority of en.wiki contributors "nerdy men". ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 16:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::that’s… not an insult? just an observation ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL ] (]) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::“Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I go to the talk pages of articles, no one ever responds. I just operate over ], it’s easier and takes less time. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:i mean you requested “guidance”, everyone else is suggesting indef which is ''not'' what i had in mind when you left this here. id gladly take a gensex topic ban over never being able to edit ever again. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'm suspecting trolling, here. ] (]) 17:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for ] violations. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information ''about the exploitation caused by the games industry'' - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make ''women working in the games industry literally less visible,'' seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::{{tq|I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body}} Be that as it may, leave that attitude at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay.]] 18:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks.]] 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::clearly you’ve never had a ], or ]. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::You've already been told by {{U|Liz}}, so it's up to you now. Either acknowledge and take on the board the advice you have been given, or yes, you will likely be blocked.]] 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Acknowledge that your past actions were wrong and disruptive, you promise to never do them again, and from here on contribute constructively. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*], I'll cut to the chase rather than participating in a debate over what your motivation is for some of your editing. I'm a female administrator and you've been brought to ANI. While this is sometimes done for frivolous reasons, for the most part, unless vandalism is occurring, complaints are brought here to resolve in order that harsher sanctions won't be necessary. It's an attempt to address problems before a block becomes necessary. There is a view that your glib messages asserting a POV regarding sexism or editors on this project are inappropriate and borderline unacceptable. Can you cease with the personal commentary here? Because if you can not, there will not be a third chance, my Misplaced Pages experience tells me that a block from editing of some duration will be coming your way. So, the choice is up to you at this point. Act professionally and not like Misplaced Pages is some kind of discussion forum, or have your editing privileges removed.
			:And to reinforce this in case it needs to be emphasized, this is not about sexism or gender really, it's about NPOV and disruptive editing. You'd be getting a similar message if you were making side comments about politics, ethnicity, race or any other subjects that cross over into contentious subject areas. These are designated areas where sloppy editing and off-the-cuff comments are sanctioned if the editor can't control her/himself. From a nerdy female editor, <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::is there any other way I can make Misplaced Pages a better place for women? How about a policy like ] but for women? ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'm looking at edit. A perfectly normal picture of a woman was removed with a weird and offensively sexualised edit summary. I can't begin to stress how perfectly normal that picture is. There are two possibilities here. One is that this is anti-feminist trolling under a false flag but the other is that TTYDDoopliss is exactly what she claims to be and was genuinely triggered by a perfectly ordinary picture of a woman at an awards ceremony. If the later then she is clearly in no state to be able to edit Misplaced Pages at this time. Pictures like that turn up all over Misplaced Pages. If we have stronger evidence of deliberate trolling elsewhere then obviously that's an indef (of both the old and new accounts) but if that edit was made in good faith then I think a temporary block would be best for all concerned. It would give TTYDDoopliss an opportunity to come back later if she is well enough, and if she wants to, of course. --] (]) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::There's which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. ] (]) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::What we would expect is to find ] compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in ] in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. ] (]) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::And, exacerbating this, you were already engaged here with people raising concerns about your widespread disruptive editing, which had been explained to you, before you made this edit. Which makes it quite deliberated disruption. ] (]) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::OK. Now I'm looking at edit and that does seem a lot more like trolling. The edit summary sounds like an anti-feminist parody of a feminist and the actual edit is to remove coverage of an alleged sex offender. Given that sexual misconduct is a serious issue in the video games industry it seems implausible that even the most misguided feminist would try to cover it up. I know that mental illness can express itself in many ways but... I just don't buy it. ] (]) 19:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{tq|I removed it because it made me upset.}} What? Have you read ] and ]? ]<sup>]</sup> 19:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just ], a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::fine ill shut up now ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::: also looks like parody. ] (]) 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the ''male'' protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. ] (]) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::No one said or implied any such thing. ] (]) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Women don't exist to fulfill men's needs. That is very true. However desire for a partner can certainly be part of a character's motivation. ] (]) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::: actually takes a ] cited statement and rewrites it to say something that the RS did not say not once but twice. In addition, there is the claim that erasing sexual orientation as a possible subject of obsessive and compulsive ideation is somehow reducing heteronormative bias. Which is somewhat contrary to what I would expect from a sincere feminist editor. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::: is somewhat better than average. At least the source says, "Insofar as they affect women, bromances, when taken in conjunction with monogamous heterosexual relationships, decrease the burden on women to provide all the care work for their partners."
			:::::::However "all the care work" is paraphrased by Doopliss to "The increasing tolerance of bromances relives pressure on women to be emotionally intimate with men," which is... not... the same thing. But at least I can look at the source, look at the statement and draw a line between them, however tenuous. ] (]) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Also, this too supports my "troll" hypothesis since the very next paragraph of the Chen source begins "Bromances reinforce gender hierarchy, bolster marriage as the goveming, archetypal intimate relationship, and normalize homophobia." So we have an article crtical of bromance being used to praise it for getting men out of womens' hair. ] (]) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think it's clear some form of block is necessary now. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Because you have disrupted multiple topics. ] (]) 19:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::And that's it. That's the proof that we are being played. An inexperienced user would not be advocating for a topic ban. An inexperienced user would not even know what a topic ban was. This is probably a Gamergate dead-ender yanking our chains. ] (]) 19:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I'd suggest a checkuser but what's the point? They are going to get blocked anyway. ] (]) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I know what a topic ban is because I’ve lurked on pages like AN/I before. I’ve been browsing back-end Misplaced Pages pages for years. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::what can I do to make you guys believe me? ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::That ship has sailed. ] (]) 19:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			I've gone ahead and blocked them. It's clear we're being trolled. They're not only offensively characterising men, they're offensively characterising women and people with mental illnesses. Thay also can't keep their own lies and beliefs straight. We're done here. ] ] 20:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposal: Indefinite block ===
			For disruptive editing and ]. I propose that TTYDDoopliss be indefintely blocked. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Per nom. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Even if they are what they claim to be there is nothing for them here. --] (]) 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. In addition, ] and ]. - ] ] 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' For the reasons and multitudinous diffs cited above I believe this whole dog and pony show is a troll. ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' per above. I don't mean to be rude, but Wikipedians are a diverse bunch, and some of us are bound to be male. If you can't work collaboratively, you can't work at all. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' because as I said before, whether this user has legitimate intentions behind these edits or is just ], their disruptive editing and refusal to acknowledge their actions shows me that they are ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' per nom ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Per Nom. The way she characterizes certain mental illnesses is untrue and frankly beyond offensive. ] (]) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' - I believe we're being trolled. ] (]) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per nomination - I had initial sympathy but it's just trolling. <span style="background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;">''']''' <small>]</small></span> 20:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per nom. Good block by CT.]] 20:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support:''' TTYDDoopliss asked, several times over, what she could do to avoid a general block. Over and over again, she refused to respond in the one way that would have helped her: by saying that she'd clean up her act and stop dumping her own issues onto this site. Even if we weren't being trolled, any time an ] person gets cbanned, an angel gets its wings. ] 21:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== ]: ] and ] behaviour. ==
	A couple of editors have undone Bardrick's edits these are reverted. Reverts by various users with comments provided:
	*]:
	*]:
	*Myself (])
	*]:
			Toa Nidhiki05 has been guarding the hell out of the ]. They instantly revert any change against the status quo that they don't like, citing a need for consensus, then don't actually engage with discussions around those edits except to call for moratoriums on even talking about them while spewing bad faith assumptions, or trying to wikilawyer away disagreements. I'm not a long term editor at ] and, frankly, don't want to be, but in the limited number of days I've been editing on this it's clearly an issue.
	Warning to Bardrick's talk page:
	A dispute at ] between Bardrick and myself was very close to becoming a 3RR situation as Bardick was not interesting in returning to the baseline while the issue (which would have affected a large number of articles) was discussed. I'm too closely involved at this point to undo any more of Bardrick edits as it's going nowhere.--] (]) 03:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	***** Answer from Bardrick: There's a legitimate debate going on on this issue & the "Labattblueboy" is continually reverting the text. He has taken ownership of these articles, has an unhistorical approach to this particular issue, will not debate the matter, has come running to you as he's lost the argument on the historical case & can't take it. Bit sad really =(
	Bardrick ****
	:]'s response is quite unconvincing. He is engaging in edit wars but he won't make the effort to properly sign his talk messages. His indifference to ] suggests that a block may be necessary. He has a from 24 September. ] (]) 20:20, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	****Answer from Bardrick: This "Johnston" guy is on a power-trip & these threats to have other users banned (which is against Wiki policy itself) & this type of character's incessant running off trying to get you to do it for them should, I'd suggest, be ignored. These people use the term "concensus" to try to bully others into obeying small cabals they set up on Wiki, they don't like open debate based on logic & evidence, as can be seen from "Labattblueboy's" behaviour over the Currie article, & are a slightly creepy (check out the way this "Johnston" character has gone all over my history desperately looking for ammunition to try to use here) element in Misplaced Pages. It really is a bit sad =(****
			(The main thing I'm trying to draw attention to in those diffs is the declaration that an edit "will not be made'. Please see below before taking claims of local consensus at face value)
	Bardrick.
			Most recently he decided to just blanket slander multiple editors who disagree with him while again calling for a moratorium on changes he doesn't like.
	::Blocked for 72 hours for edit-warring and personal attacks. Other remedies may be necessary if this continues after the block. ] (]) 21:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			More specifically this line:
	== Dedicated vandal ==
	{{archive top|status=Ridiculous|Request for a ] after 1 edit denied. ] <small>(])</small> 09:28, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	Before Christmas, I was sure I changed the date ] was pardoned to 24 December. I saw someone had changed it to 23 Dec, and searched page history and found that the date was changed by . It's {{userlinks| 117.202.56.250}}, who seems to have a pretty good knowledge of the wikisyntax, really taking time to mess up the page. This was, while the page was (and still is) being featured on the Main Page's "In The News" section, and the vandal edit was only first properly two days later. Other users had partially undone the vandal's edit, and I just undid the rest in a pretty frustrating exercise comparing the diff to the present page, trying to avoid undoing any of the 100+ well-intended edits from the time between. I am appealing for admins to ban this user straight away – it's obviously no use warning him if he is ready to take such dedication to messing up the page, and this is probably not the first time the person behind the IP has done something like this. --] (]) 03:27, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nonadmin}} That edit was pretty ridiculous, but I doubt s/he'll be banned for something like that. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 09:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			{{tq|Rather than persuade editors, it seems editors are attempting to force these changes through.}} (right below an entire thread that was made before a controversial change specifically to discuss said change)
	== Dragonron's disruptive behavior ==
	{{archive top|Dragonron blocked for ]. If this continues after release of this block, an indef block is in order. ] <small>(])</small> 09:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	], despite being a new account, appears to be run by someone semi-knowledgeable about Misplaced Pages and its guidelines and has done around 3 constructive edits. However, they do so with sarcastic and plain weird comments showing in my opinion a purpose to disrupt that outshines being a constructive editor.
	They have been warned in the past and responded by warning the ClueBot .
			I feel this last one is the most important, because it highlights a pattern of what's been going on here: Toa telling editors a local consensus has been reached, and that they're free to read back, and then citing their own requests obliquely as if they're others ("{{tq|or called for a moratorium on changes}}") and, most importantly, creating an in-group of who is allowed to weigh in on article content ({{tq|Only one active discussion-engaged user}}). Other editors, like @], have been calling them out for this as well.
	In this edit they claimed to have "edited the redirects cause the pages were moved", when by looking through their edit history clearly shows no such work.
			Note, actually doing what Toa asks and looking back through old talk page discussions on this largely results in finding Toa telling people the same thing then, too.
	I gave sufficient explanations for my reverts here and here .
			There's a content dispute under-riding most of this, which frankly is probably best adjudicated at this point by literally anyone other than Toa or myself. The meat of this ANI is wholly independent of the content dispute, except insofar as Toa's apparently not been engaging in the most NPOV way with editors when it comes to sourcing requirements. I want to point out that despite Toa's reality-bending insistence I've been pretty open to admitting a different proposal for a change from others was better than my own idea. In an attempt to placate his revert-happy self on what I was sure would be controversial (removing 'conservative' from the dominant ideology of the party) I started by making a discussion thread highlighting that the sources that were being used didn't make that claim, including direct quotes from the papers. Except for admonishing editors for wanting change, he's mostly elected to just straight up ignore any substantive discussion over the exact thing he's reverting. This is clearly OWN and POV editing, and it looks like previous attempts to caution him for edit warring were met with ''. I'd honestly like to bow out of editing that page entirely for a while for ''so'' many reasons, but I don't want to leave it in a state where one editor has declared an article theirs.
	Additionally, because they are knowledgeable about guidelines and given the recent edits by the ip ] suggest to me sockpuppetry.
			'''Addendum:''' for the same behaviour is being discussed, but the link is buried in the discussion.] 15:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	I frankly do not know what to do or if this is even the place to discuss this. Does such behavior constitute vandalism, a sockpuppet block or trying to ignore/work around them? ] (])
	:{{Non-administrator observation}}The user has also requested a page protection at ] claiming you are the one edit warring. ]<sup>]</sup> 03:56, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I am aware. However, I'm confident others will see the user is disruptive and bring an end to that as well. ] (]) 04:05, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	U revert me without a basis! Kuririn, Freeza, and the others were moved, no? I hate redirects, and theres no reason for using em. And we dont use "manga Viz names" per ]. May I remind Xfansd that I opened a discussion which he wont partake in?! Check my contribs. i am not a suckpuppet, another baseless allegation this editor is the disruptive one. ] (]) 04:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	*It might be a good idea to indef dragonron per his apparent hounding, but I'd like a second opinion on that matter. ] (]) 04:54, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	**Heh! Ur "hounding" claims go unsubstantiated. I am just doin mah job. ] (]) 04:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	***Ok, calm down Dragonron. And fellas, hows about we compromise on a partial revert? ] (]) 05:21, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	****excuse me, theres no compromising with Xfansz unless he talks to either of us. I am waiting for the block, I mean, lock to expire so I can nix it up again. ] (]) 05:33, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			The page-in-question ''should'' be stable & at status quo. Best to work out content disputes on the page-in-questions' talkpage. ] (]) 15:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	*There are some useful edits among Dragonron's contributions, but his tone and attitude show either a lack of maturity or outright trolling. Given his tag-teaming with the 166.147 IPs as noted above, on and ], plus his (and their) obvious experience with Misplaced Pages, I find the sockpuppetry allegations likely. That puts me into the "trolling" camp. That said, I believe Xfansd misunderstood the "" edit summary: Dragonron changed the {{tl|main}} targets from redirects to the corresponding articles themselves; I expect that's what the edit summary refers to. ] (]) 05:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	**THANK U! Finally someone who understands wut I was doing. Huon, ur wrong on one thing: I dont resort to suckpuppetry. Trust me. Now, Mark or whoever, revert back to the version without redirects please. ] (]) 05:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I've issued a short block to Dragonron for ]. Let's hope that ends this mess and after the block there is more constructive engagement with other editors. If not, Mark's suggestion of an indef is in order. ] <small>(])</small> 09:45, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			:I don't think that the content dispute should be decided here. To be clear, 99% of the content dispute is moving one sentence earlier in the article and removing a source that failed verification. We're not talking about seeing how fast we can invoke Godwin's Law in a page about the GOP (though admittedly some editors are). I genuinely don't think the content in question actually substantial at all, which is why one editor increasingly spiralling into mudslinging over it while refusing to discuss changes beyond categorical rejection or highly mobile goalposts for inclusion is a problem. ] 15:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	==Lone Gunmen==
	{{archive top|That Acroterion protected the article was an act of kindness. The IP editor is urged not just to edit the article talk page but to argue that there are reliable sources (not YouTube videos and websites related to the subject) that warrant inclusion of what a person of real good faith might call "material". Bringing up "white wash" is frequently a sign of unencyclopedicness, but that's by the by: for now, it suffices to say that no admin intervention is required unless it is by way of ]. ''UPDATE'': now blocked. ] (]) 04:13, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	This morning I began edits to ] in an effort to expand sections and provide citations where there previously were none. Later in the day before my edits were completed, ] and ] showed and began reverting and section blanking before I had the proper time to condense the new information and ensure the citations were all good.
			:I am out of town, and don't have time to reply fully to all of this. But the general dispute ongoing at the page is twofold: {{u|Warrenmck}} wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right", and they want "conservatism" to be removed as a majority faction. There doesn't appear to be support for either of these things (an ongoing RfC on the "far-right" designation is trending a pretty strong consensus in opposition, and removing conservatism appears to be equally unlikely to reach consensus). This is a content dispute involving, at this point, probably at least a dozen editors, and should be resolved on the page.
	'''Reverts''':
			:What {{u|Warrenmck}} does not seem to understand is that changing political positions on pages is something that comes up ''all the time''. None of the arguments presented have been new, and a local consensus has been developed with the collaboration of many editors. This took a lot of hard work and compromise to reach.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=The_Lone_Gunmen_%28TV_series%29&diff=588012439&oldid=588009013
			:For editors like myself - who worked on the present consensus versions - this is not a fresh, new discussion. It's more or less an endless string of discussions that have been ongoing for years. This is why several other editors - not just myself (and I'm not even the one who came up with the idea - that was {{u|Czello}}. I was actually the third to support one) have supported a moratorium on said discussions. There is nothing wrong with discussing a moratorium on repetitive topics that repeatedly emerge on talk pages.
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=The_Lone_Gunmen_%28TV_series%29&diff=587992610&oldid=587992402
			:I will also note that, I have not, in fact, blindly opposed any changes to the article. I did not object when “right-wing populism” was added as a majority faction; I didn’t even participate in the discussion, iirc, because it was such an obvious changed. And in this discussion I've ''added'' additional citations to address {{u|Warrenmck}}'s concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes. It goes without saying that the article is not mine, I have never claimed it is mine, and I have no interest in subverting or going against whatever consensus is reached through talk page discussions, rather than brute force. '''] ]''' 15:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=The_Lone_Gunmen_%28TV_series%29&diff=587992402&oldid=587992337
			::Once again, what I was calling for was including "far right" as a ''minor faction'', per the an absolute ocean of reliable sources. Even you explicitly stated in the RfC it's a minor ideology. You've accused me of wanting to make the page about the republicans being far right multiple times now, and the only time you've responded to me saying that 's not what I'm doing here was to say that having it on the page at all slanders the party as that
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=The_Lone_Gunmen_%28TV_series%29&diff=587980735&oldid=587958976
			::{{quote|Except the RfC isn’t about labelling the party far right, it’s about naming it as a minor ideology, which you here acknowledge?}}
			::and you responded
			::{{quote|Which is labeling the party as it.}}
			::Which isn't how NPOV editing works.
			::Beyond that I simply don't believe that Toa is accurately representing the discussions that are there now or the historical discussions around local consensus.
			::{{tq|I will also note that, I have not, in fact, opposed any changes. In fact, I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes}}
			::Please, any admin reading this exact quoted line, immediately go look at Toa's engagement on this exact point . Toa added a source paper, I read the source paper, removed it because it simply didn't make the claim it was being used to make, and instantly started a discussion thread asking for sources and explicitly explaining my removal. ''I did not make the change I knew would be controversial'', that was a different editor later. I also quoted the specific line in the paper which discussed why it wasn't an approprioate source for the claim it was being used for in my removal () Which Toa almost completely ignored. This is simply not an accurate recounting of events.
			::This is why I think this is an ANI issue. Toa routinely misrepresents or overstates consensus and historical discussions, while running off editors who don't agree, then claiming that only the long term editors should have a meaningful say. ] 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please find a time where I said you “want to make the page about the Republicans being far right”. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that. I have said you clearly have strong views about the subject, though.
			:::What you are referencing was a typo. Notice that it’s not even a complete sentence? '''] ]''' 16:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Literally in this ANI:
			::::{{tq|Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right"}}
			::::That is not the same thing as defining far-right as a minor ideology of the party. Also from the talk page:
			::::{{tq|Its exclusion is not odd, as academic sources do not widely or generally or even often refer to the party as far-right, which is typically associated with literal fascism or Nazism. Believe it or not, this has been discussed dozens of times - including several in the last few months - and editors have reached a consensus that academic sources broadly refer to the party as center-right or right-wing.}} ] 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You are making a distinction without a difference. '''] ]''' 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Involved: These are content disputes and should be dealt with at that level. ] (]) 16:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			* ] appears to have been exceedingly cordial and professional in the differences you provided above. I see no wrongdoing on their part. ] ] 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	Their section blanking also lead to them blanking previously added subsections of the article which were never cited nor did I add. I also previously warned both users on the talk page that they were being unconstructive and vandalizing the articles content, I was completely ignored. Also the information they have section blanked is some of the same content from ] about where the show gets its original name, except my version was properly cited. I would appreciate it if all editors here could sit down and have a rational discussion with Misplaced Pages administrative oversight in which all of these issues are resolved/discussed. Thank you. ] (]) 03:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			*:I cannot disagree, except I think that speaking authoritatively about how a change will not be done regardless of sources provided simply breaks ]:
			*:{{quote|An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.}}
			*:The other problem is that the consensus they're pointing to doesn't seem to substantially exist. There's an abundance of "go see the old discussions" which themselves say "go see the old discussions" and so on. It's artificial, and it's being used to prevent edits that users don't like, as opposed to edits they can substantively object to. Seriously, just look at his presentation of these previous discussions here ] and go back in the archives. While I'm sure there were discussions at some (possibly many) points, there's a ''hell'' of a lot of reliable sources being objected to there on a house of cards.
			*:Additionally, I think that's masking the fact that they're simply refusing to engage editors while reverting the article to the status quo. They're basically holding the article hostage by pointing people to an ongoing discussion they're not engaging in (, or on the talk pages with "see previous discussion" as a threadkiller). So the choice editors are left with is to edit war over an inclusion, or give up. The issue isn't that there's a content dispute here, it's that someone has ]ed their way into objecting to a specific edit on an ongoing basis, always maintaining a layer of "content dispute". As ] said, {{tq|"Do you have a content-based case to make here or do you just declare editor's contributions to be "low quality" if you disagree with them?"}} ] 16:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. ] 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place ''after'' I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer ] problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an ] mentality. ] (]) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::@] appears to be actively involved in this, and there's comments on their guarding against "far right" in the article going back at least two years of the same argumentation pattern and misrepresenting sourcing requirements and consensus. and . I agree this seems more like a CPUSH. For example, this was directed at Springee from the last diff:
			*::::{{tq|The same failed arguments have been made in several similar discussions of late}}
			*::::Basically, the patten we're seeing at Republican Party (United States) appears to be ongoing with several of the key users objecting to changes on identical grounds year after year without ever really explaining why these aren't open for discussion in light of sourcing standards. @] appears to be engaging in an identical pattern in many of the same articles. TFD, Toa, and Springee show up ''all over''[REDACTED] making the same tortured arguments around academic sourcing and consensus when someone mentions "far-right" in an article. Every single time it's a complete slamming of the door of the possibility that RS could ever be met for the inclusion of information they deem controversial. ] 13:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. ] (]) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Sorry, being vague wasn't my intention. I think you're engaging in the same CPUSH behaviour as Toa, just maintaining civility much better. It's possible to find ''years'' worth of identical argumentation from you on this across many articles, always with the same anything-other-than-excluding-content-is-unacceptable, and above you're continuing the relatively nonsensical arguments from Toa with Simonm223 in asking for unique sourcing standards for a claim you really don't like. You pick this fight very consistently on Misplaced Pages, usually with the same arguments.
			*::::::If I'm way out of line here I'm fine accepting a boomerang, but I see several editors going way off the deep end in trying to prevent a very specific change to articles on Misplaced Pages that seems to be coming from a place of stonewalling ] 14:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::I hope my arguments have been consistent because I try to pay strict adherence to content policy and guidelines. ] (]) 17:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Accusing other editors of making "low quality" edits instead of making an argument isn't helpful or professional, and neither is demanding a unique standard for edits one is opposed to. ] (]) 17:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			* This is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article. This discussion should be closed. ] (]) 19:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Respectfully ] and ] are behavioural problems. ] (]) 20:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As a comment, Toa’s response to multiple users adding failed verification tag was to go tag all the sources making a political claim they don’t like as failing verification en masse ().
	:A did not go in the IP's favor, so I guess they thought it was necessary to come here instead. I think this is borderline ]. <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #09F, -4px -4px 15px #9F0; font-weight: bold">]</span> <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #F90, -4px -4px 15px #F09;">] ]</span> 04:00, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:while these all on their own may be legitimate tags (though other editors have been removing some tags as apparently they did pass verification) I think taking this in the context of them actually refusing to discuss the failed verification tag that lead to this spree ''at all'' makes this pretty ] behaviour to me. If Toa wants to discuss bad edits, that’s good and fine. But they can’t have a policy of using bad edits from other people to deflect from any discussion around edits they themselves feel are valid. Apparently he doesn't have enough time to fully engage with this ANI or any of the discussions around his own edits, but does have enough time to read dozens of articles and point by point articulate his issue with each over at the talk page for ]. ] 08:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::None of this is in retaliation at all, if you could all slow down a second and give me a time to properly respond. ] (]) 04:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:'''Comment:''' ] for this exact behaviour in 2022. The reason given at the time was
	:::I suggest that you drop this immediately: I've already warned you about ], and if you continue you will be blocked. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 04:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:{{quote|Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it.}}
	:::I've blocked, since I've grown tired of seeing the word "liar" in the IP's posts. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 04:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:This is the same pattern of behaviour he's accused of here, for the same thing, and that resulted in an indefinite TBAN. Springee and TFD are again involved there, as well. This should make it pretty clear that, civility aside, this is a problem. A long, ongoing one. ] 14:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			::I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to ] more than ]. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. ] (]) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Honestly I agree having seen more of this being a systematic issue since making this ANI. ] 14:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Perhaps the issue is that good faith editor don't agree. A failure to get consensus to add a controversial claim is hardly proof of CPUSH. Additionally as the number of accused editors goes up it looks more like a true content dispute vs a single editor problem. I will also note that Toa has done quite a bit to review some of the references used to support the disputed changes and makes a good case that they don't support the claims within the edits being pushed into the article. ] (]) 14:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. ] (]) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{tq|Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy.}}
			::::And ''very clearly'' retaliatory. ] 14:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings. Per ]: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". If the source does not back up the cited claim, it shouldn't be used. This is... pretty ordinary stuff, actually.
			:::::You'll notice I did not remove the broader claims, or change the in-article text. All I have done is trim sources that do not back up the claim given, which is something Misplaced Pages citations are required to do. If you reaction to a source review that results in no changes to prose is to file a report rather than discuss, challenge, or revert, you might have a hard time being successful with that. '''] ]''' 15:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::{{tq|You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings}}
			::::::Would you please provide the diff where you substantively responded to a thread made directly about a source you added not passing verification, which you were pinged in and did actually participate without addressing the substance of? Because that would go a long way towards convincing me this isn't a smokescreen of policy to mask more sealioning in a thin veneer of civility and plausible deniability. How about addressing any of the comments providing the ''exact'' types of sources you were asked for? When I did provide a reason and eventually reverted your addition, you just reverted with "nah it didn't fail verification" ignoring both the edit summary prior and the entire talk page discussion about the entire situation. As I said there, neither I nor any other editor personally needs to run improvements on the article through you, personally. If you object without engaging or explaining, it's perfectly reasonable for editors to simply ignore your perspectives. ] 15:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. '''] ]''' 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::No. The content dispute isn't the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I don't agree with {{U|Springee}} about some of their interpretations of appropriate content but I don't think their comportment is problematic except in as far as it gives cover to yours. Rather it's two things: how you insist sources should be interpreted and how you engage with other editors that has become disruptive. ] (]) 15:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::The diff I asked for had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with you attempting to paint other editors as sidestepping a process you yourself have refused to engage in as a matter of policy, apparently going back far enough for you to have already received an indef TBAN for ''the exact same behaviour''. ] 15:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::As a perfect example, in this diff they claim that the New York Times piece does not support referring to the Republican party as right-wing populist. <s>This is because it says that the party isn't ''just'' a touch more populist. It then compares the Republican party under Trump to the racist populist ] and the fascist propagandist ]. This, to me, is more than sufficient to support "right-wing populism" but, because the article uses simile, Toa Nidhiki05 calls it a "Gish Gallop". </s>] (]) 15:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Ok here's the correct quote now: {{tq|The overarching pattern is clear. In election after election, Democrats underperformed among traditional Democratic constituencies during the Trump era. Sometimes, it was merely a failure to capitalize on his unpopularity. Other times, it was a staggering decline in support. Together, it has shattered Democratic dreams of building a new majority with the rise of a new generation of young and nonwhite voters.<br /> This overarching pattern requires an overarching explanation: Mr. Trump’s populist conservatism corroded the foundations of the Democratic Party’s appeal. It tapped into many of the issues and themes that once made these voters Democrats.<br /> While the damage was mostly concealed by Mr. Trump’s unpopularity, the backlash to his norm-shattering presidency drew the Democratic Party even further from its traditional roots. The extent of that damage is now clear.}}
			::::::Now this article does compare the ''Democratic party'' as a whole to ''Trump'' on a purely linguistic level. However context matters here. The first line of the article is {{tq|It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it.}} The NYT has as table-stakes that the Republicans were transformed by Trump. In this context I think it's a reasonable argument that "Trump" here is a stand-in for the party of Trump. ] (]) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Also, the ''New York Times'' introduces the article by saying, "Nate Cohn, The Times’s chief political analyst, makes sense of the latest political data." ] says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Therefore this is not an acceptable source.
			:::::::It disruptive that so many unreliable sources have been presented in the discussion pages. It wastes edtiors' time as they discuss sources that cannot be used.
			:::::::My suggestion is that going forward, unreliable sources that are presented should be struck out and editors who persist in presenting them should face sanctions. That will allow editors to focus on what reliable sources say. ] (]) 16:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what ] says {{tq|When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.}} ] (]) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::In this case the author is a journalist with a BA in politics IOW he has the same background one would expect for the writer of an analysis in a newspaper. Furthermore, when policy says that this type of source is "rarely reliable," the onus is on the person presenting it to explain why it should be deemed reliable. ] (]) 17:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page. Maybe it would be best if editors heavily involved there, would avoid each other & allow newcomers room to give their input. Might lower the heat. ] (]) 16:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Disruptive editing from IP 219.116.115.176, again... ==
	{{archivetop|1=Blocked for three months by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 03:55, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	IP {{IPvandal|219.116.115.176}}, the subject of , a report that resulted in a block, is back again, continuing the same pattern of highly disruptive, and '''very''' strange edits, edits that IMHO show a clear lack of ]. The IP, which geolocates to Japan and makes many edit summaries in Japanese, edits both articles and other users' talk pages, reverts many of their '''own''' edits with edit summaries that claim they're reverting vandalism, creates redirects, adds and removes images, and generally just plays around, without contributing anything worthwhile to the project (I could add diffs but a look at the IP's list of contributions should be enough...). The IP has overnight (from my perspective, i.e. European time) received a full set of warnings, up to and including a final warning for vandalism, but IMHO the lack of competence, and resulting disruption, warrants more than just a short block for vandalism. ] ] 11:05, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:{{tq|Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page.}}
	:Ah, wow. Some of his edits are....OK? His global contributions are interesting - he's actually performing this exact same behavior over at least a dozen other Wikis (with three blocks on ja-wiki and one on commons). I am of agreement that this editor, while he might mean well, is simply too incompetent to be allowed to edit. I'm blocking for three months, with the hope that he either stays away from Misplaced Pages in the future, or starts trying to actually communicate with people. ] (]) 11:24, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:It isn't, for what it's worth. It's about a consistent pattern of behaviours going back years that came out, mostly, in the thread after the RfC, though partially there as well. Beyond that, good call. ] 16:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			Is this the type of report that would be better addressed at ]? ~~ ] (]) 16:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Brilliantly weird indeed. I love the self-reverts with accusation of vandalism. Maybe we should make it an administrator so it will block itself. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::And it's getting even weirder after the block, with the IP now making nonsense-edits on their own talk page, and then with an edit summary saying "reverting vandalism"... ] ] 21:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			:Frankly, probably? I misjudged how long this had been going on and the scale of it. ] 17:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] ==
			::I think it would be better suited to AE except that it's here now and AE tends not to like having an issue open at two venues. ] (]) 17:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I don't see why you consider this a behavioral issue rather than a content dispute. I follow a lot of articles that attract editors with fringe views: fascism is left-wing, cultural marxism and Jewish bolshevism are not just conspiracy theories, aspartame is dangerous, climate science is unsettled, etc. Some editors explain why these views are wrong, while others point to previous discussions.
			::If anyone should be banned, it isn't editors who insist that articles reflect reliable sources, but editors who try to inject fringe theories unsupported by reliable sources.
			::On your user page, you mention that you have written peer-reviewed articles in geophysics and vulcanology. Certainly you would not rely on an analysis by a journalist as reliable in those papers. For example, you would not use it for explaining why a particular volcano erupted. ] (]) 20:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. ] (]) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::See ]: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources."
			::::Can you explain why in determining how to desribe a political group you prefer an article by a journalist rather than a political scientist writing in a peer-reviewed publication? Do you think it is prudent to substitute a consensus academic opinion with that of a journalist?
			::::If I want to know how to categorize a poltical group or know why volcanoes erupt, my go to source isnt't a newspaper. Instead, I would look for an article by an expert. ] (]) 15:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			If I am following this properly, via the thread on the linked talk page:
			# The OP made a thread on ] saying that we should change the article to say that it was "anti-intellectual" and "far-right".
			# Toa_Nidhiki05 said that this was a bad idea, and some stuff about previous consensus against doing this.
			# ???
			# AN/I thread
			Is there anything I'm missing here? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Sealioning, a previous TBAN for identical behaviour, and multiple editors weighing in saying this is a CPUSH issue? ] 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	], is repeatedly inserting a in the article despite being properly explained about the copyright problems of the image in the talk page. DIFFS of inserting the image: ,, , , , ,
			::You've said I'm guilty of sealioning three times in this thread, but as far as I can tell you haven't actually defined what you think that means, or what I've done. It's a pretty specific set of behavior - can you explain what I've done that qualifies as sealioning?
			::But to answer JPxG: yeah, that's essentially it. Like I said above, it doesn't look like either of Warrenmck's proposed changes will make it into the article, and I'm surprised this content dispute hasn't been closed yet. '''] ]''' 23:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You have refused to engage editors in the exact process you demand they engage in, you put forward sourcing standards which, when met, you completely dodge. On one hand you ask editors to discuss and respect consensus, on the other you wield prior consensus as a cudgel to prevent a change you don’t like and have made it abundantly clear that the sourcing standards you demand are not actually sourcing standards you’ll accept, rather, to quote an admin in your last TBAN: {{tq|There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any basis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines}}. You’re engaging in vindictive editing patterns, which evidence has also been provided for. You have refused to articulate the actual substance of prior consensus other than pointing at it and saying “consensus, consensus, consensus” and when the exact arguments that lead to said consensus (apparently, you’ve still never linked a prior discussion) are being addressed and met you ignore the editor, as multiple people here have pointed out.
			:::You’ve been doing this for ''years'' and were TBANed for it in 2022. Your attempt at denying it here rings hollow when multiple editors have been ''very'' explicit and provided diffs for sealioning behaviour. Im frankly a bit surprised at @]’s rapid read of the situation considering the evidence of a TBAN for the exact behaviour raised here and multiple editors chiming in saying they see a ]. ] 06:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	The image has been nominated for deletion in the commons. Moreover, the user has also uploaded some non-free images with missing info like , using wrong licenses falsely claiming that they are in public domain per FOP just to use those images as a source in the collage. Since the user continues with his disruptive editing, I thought to report him here.--''''']''''' <sup> ]</sup> 13:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::I'm going to repeat this link which is referred to above but kind of hidden, here is the discussion that lead to the 2022 topic ban: ], just in case anyone wants to review it. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I have notified ]. '']'' <sup>]</sup> 17:54, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::::It’s also worth pointing out that their reply to @] engages in some of the direct behaviour they’re being called out for here: seemingly reasonably asking for a discussion while ignoring that what they’re asking for was already provided without them participating
	::{{reply to|Kmzayeem}} I probably missed it but have you communicated with him? I didn't see it on his talk page or on the article talk page but I sure could have missed it. A diff please? ]<sub>]</sub> 23:17, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::::{{tq|You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings}}
			:::::In a vacuum, this looks like a completely reasonable editor engaged in a very civil discussion around edits. In practice this was already done before this comment, and Toa refused to engage in the discussion except one about the retaliatory edits, i.e. only edits they personally felt failed verification were up for discussion, not those they felt didn’t. Here they tell me I’m free to undo the source review, but apparently only on the sources they tagged as unreliable because the ones I tagged, evidenced, and started a discussion thread about were unilaterally removed, twice, with a simple claim that it didn’t fail verification with no attempt at engaging in the discussion thread about this exact thing except to tell me I’m “very passionate about this” and I shouuld stop editing .
			:::::A content dispute isn’t possible to properly adjudicate if one party is refusing to engage, then pointing to prior consensus. Toa has created a situation where they and their ephemeral prior consensus have right of review on an article. ] 08:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::*As I expected, {{ping|Warrenmck}} - your claims are simply baseless. Consider this my final response to them.
			::::::*First off, let's talk about my topic ban. No, I did not get topic banned for sealioning. It was for disruptive behavior at the ] page - frankly, it was embarrassing, and the sanction was warranted. The fact you're having to resort to a years-old incident instead of right now, though, is pretty telling in terms of the merit of ''this'' report.
			::::::*Your claims of sealioning ring hollow because you ''still cannot define what POV I am pushing'' - I'm still not even convinced you know what sealioning ''is''. Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list ] and ] as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors. See the problem here? I've behaved civilly, while your general response to... any sort of disagreement is make frivolous claims against me. If anyone's behavior should be on watch here, it is ''yours'', because it's been utterly ridiculous.
			::::::*You seem extremely caught up on what I told you during your initial proposal here - how I told you your edit would not be accepted, and that while this is a topic you're clearly passionate about, it might be best for you to step away from it if you're unable to distance your personal feelings. '''I think everything I said is correct'''. Your proposal was '''bad'''. It didn't add any new information to the table, it isn't backed up by high-quality academic sources, and effectively all it's done is waste time. Like I said: your proposal may have been made in good faith, but it is not going to be accepted. And I was right! The RfC you started (after an initial discussion where nobody agreed with you, and an earlier attempt you made at an RfC that was malformed) has opposes ahead of supports by over a 2:1 margin. Your proposal to remove conservatism has been received as equally poorly.
			::::::*Similarly, your response to my source review wasn't to contest changes on the talk page or revert them - but instead, to accuse me '''here''' of "retaliation"; as far as I can tell, the only one you directly commented on at the talk page is to ''agree'' with me.
			::::::*Instead of looking inward and reconsidering your contributions, you instead started a frivolous, retaliatory AN/I board discussion that pretty much every uninvolved editor has reacted with bewilderment over.
			::::::*I am going to be blunt here: you are wasting '''my''' time, you are wasting '''your''' time, and you're wasting '''everyone's''' time here. Frankly, I think you should strongly consider limiting or ending your involvement in AP2 if your response to a basic content dispute and not getting your way is to post frivolous reports to AN/I. '''] ]''' 13:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::*:As per link Liz provided above, your topic ban wasn't for disruptive behaviour on the Stacey Abrams page. That page isn't mentioned in the AIN discussion closure comments. The Republican Party article is, and the outcome was a a ban from that page and a topic ban, with the reasons cited being, among others, retaliatory posting, evidence of personal attacks, bludgeoning, and edit-warring. ] (]) 14:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::*::TN, you have been very selective in what you see at article talk. In one instance you say, regarding the Republican Party's center-right designation, that there should be a moratorium on such discussions because "nothing new" has been presented. That is despite the fact that there are ''several new peer reviewed sources'' that contradict center-right and support far-right that have been presented and ignored by you. But the one time I agreed with you regarding a low-quality source you were very fast to point out my agreement in discussion. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that is leading to the complaints of sealioning. Regarding your POV it is that you want to retain the status quo at the page. You don't want to see revision, especially, to any high-level indicators of overall ideology such as infoboxes. That's fine we all have POVs. Mine is that the page is non-neutral calling the Republicans a center-right party. The problem comes when you ignore all evidence that contradicts your POV over the objection of ''multiple other editors'' and insist that no sources have been provided despite an abundance of high-quality sources being provided. ] (]) 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::*:::A professional paid editor frankly should have a much more complete understanding of ], ], and ]. ] 14:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::*:Nothing you said there replies to the post you responded to. This feels like a gish gallop. One with a reasonable number of falsehoods, at that. For example:
			::::::*:{{tq|Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors.}}
			::::::*:Why not, for the folks at ANI reading along, explain the ''context'' in which I said I was going to unilaterally add far-right in? Hmm? Here's a .
			::::::*::'''1.''' You failed to actually demonstrate there was a consensus, as one didn't exist in the place you directed me to.
			::::::*::'''2.''' Neither you nor Springee, who you've been tag-teaming with on this exact edit for ''years'', once articulated why it "wasn't going to be included" other than to state tautologically that it was not
			::::::*::'''3.''' In the absence of any substantive objection, ] material should be added in.
			::::::*:] doesn't assume a stonewalled refusal to engage, and if the only substance to the objection I'm getting is a vague statement about an unreferenced consensus and ] then yeah, I'm going to edit it in. I'm very used to editing in contentious article spaces and this isn't the first time I've seen this approach used to keep out changes. You can point to your civility until the cows come home but if it's masking POV editing that needs to be addressed. ] 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::*If you're going to accuse {{ping|Springee}} of something, you could at least do them the decency of tagging them. That being said - the idea I've been tag-teaming with them for years on this is silly, because the page didn't have a political position listed until late last year (something you'd know if you... read the talk page archives, like you claim you have), so I'm not exactly sure what you think has been going on here.
			::::::::*Moreover: there is, in fact, a consensus. I'm fairly confident I've pointed it out to you, but it was developed in the talk page in archives 32-34; there's not a single thread to pinpoint because it took place over numerous threads. Given what you've said above, however, I don't think you actually did ever read those discussions. The fact you're simply unable to accept that a ] exists (or, evidently, the fact that editors do not agree with your proposed changes by a 2:1 margin) is on you.
			::::::::*With that, I'm done. If you want to waste your time litigating a content dispute at AN/I, go ahead. I'm no longer engaging with this. '''] ]''' 15:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::*:Others should note that this is the exact same pattern of behaviour that Warrenmck and I both highlighted previously: selectively responding to arguments that they can refute while ignoring those they cannot, pointing to a vaguely defined local consensus without pointing to a specific decision, and a fair bit of diversion with the whole complaint of not tagging @], who is already quite thoroughly engaged in this thread. ] (]) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::*::Why are you presenting arguments that can be refuted? ] (]) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::*:::I don't think I am, being honest, especially since you and I agree on source quality and I've taken great care to base my arguments on a large number of reliable peer reviewed academic sources rather than news media. But there are multiple editors involved in this discussion. ] (]) 15:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::*::I'm generally following this discussion. I think it would be helpful if we all try to assume good faith. It's clear there is a disagreement here. If editors feel they have successfully made a case against the status quo and feel the objectors are wrong I would suggest starting a RfC to confirm the answer. That's the best process for establishing that a consensus exists. I would also note that, right or wrong, rather than pushing edits into the article when consensus etc isn't clear, those wanting change should start a RfC so we can at least finish with a declared consensus on the question. We all ready have a "far-right" RfC open so half of this fight should be addressed when that one closes. ] (]) 15:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{u|Warrenmck}}, you've replied to this discussion 20 times you started it. I advise you to reign it in a bit, as this has been treading towards ]. You don't need to reply to every single comment in this discussion. Just mentioning this because the constant replies actually dissuaded me from reading through it all. ] (]) 18:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sorry, I can back away ] 18:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Repeated WP:GS/AA violations ==
	I have taken every reasonable step in regard to the aforementioned image. There should be no infringing material remaining. ] (]) 06:10, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Thank you! ]<sub>]</sub> 11:23, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::You as well. May I ask that both this incident and the deletion request at ] both be closed, considering the resolution of this dispute's circumstances? ] (]) 12:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::], take a look at ] on the article talk page, I've tried my best to explain the problems, some other editors have also raised their concerns about the image.--''''']''''' <sup> ]</sup> 15:35, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			On , I informed ] about the ] extended confirmed restriction and explained what it meant.
	== Editor Exhibiting Tendentious Behavior/Editing ==
	{{archive top|Scoobydunk blocked for edit warring and strongly cautioned on further attempts to ] articles. WLRoss cautioned about edit warring. ] <small>(])</small> 18:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	] has been exhibiting tendentious behavior and editing regarding the articles of ] and ]. I will layout multiple examples of how ] as been gaming the system, ignoring dispute resolution, violating consensus of dispute resolution, and demonstrating tendentious behavior/editing over the last few months as described by ].
	{{collapse top|wall of text collapsed}}
	1. Examples of tendentious behavior in our first dispute involving the Anthony Johnson article.
	::- Reverted edits I made to the article and deleted sources I included supporting the information I provided.
	::- After a few interactions on the talk page he chose to try and bypass the talk discussion and have the page protected.
	::- He then sought administrative intervention by reporting me for edit warring, which he too was a party of. I was new to[REDACTED] editing at the time and was not aware of the 3RR rule or what constituted as edit warring.
	::- When his attempt to report me for edit warring was declined, he sought dispute resolution from the noticeboard(the approach he should have taken in the first place).
	::- He then tried to recruit favorable editors to participate that he did not list as part of the discussion.
	::- During the dispute resolution process, WLRoss also contacted an administrator to try and have me investigated for sock-puppetry. A friend of his formally request a checkuser against me. His accusation was that I showed too much knowledge about[REDACTED] policy to be a new user, yet my grasp of WP:POV and WP:OR came about after WLRoss was the one that linked me the policies in the first place. In the first couple of links I gave, you'll notice how I incorrectly refer to WP:POV as WP:OP, that's because I was still learning the terminology, yet WLRoss seemed more interested in circumventing the dispute resolution process by having me blocked or banned.
	::- WLRoss then stopped responding after a 3rd party editor explained how WLRoss's sources were tertiary or self published and were therefore unreliable compared to stronger secondary sources. This editor also had some problems with some of my sources but agreed that I was accurately reflecting the information. As per ], "consensus can be assumed if editors stop responding to talk page discussions" Here you'll see where WLRoss stopped responding to myself and the 3rd party assisting in the dispute resolution on both the dispute resolution page and the Anthony Johnson (talk) page.
	::- After withdrawing from the dispute resolution process, WLRoss then followed me over to the John Punch article and started to revert changes I made to the article and insert information that was refuted during the dispute resolution. Also according to WP:Consensus, "editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions." After he disengaged from the dispute resolution process, he continued to edit and include disputed material, being all around disruptive.
			Scherbatsky12 still created several articles or made expansions in areas covered by ] such as the following: ], ], ], and made poorly sourced POV additions such as:
	Now, individually, some of these behaviors are necessary and required when valid concerns are raised, but when all of this behavior is intertwined it shows that WLRoss was intent on trying to game the system. He was using parts of[REDACTED] policies and procedures to discourage discussion, he showed bad faith when inquiring if I was a sock puppet, and tried to manipulate procedures to his benefit.
			*
	2. Now I'll discuss more tendentious behavior that occurred during our dispute regarding the John Punch which is, essentially, an extension of the first dispute. An administrator warned both of us that we were heading towards edit warring disciplinary action. This time I opened a 3O ticket for dispute resolution. It wasn't long before an objective 3rd party editor decided to take our case and help us resolve our dispute...again. After a lot of back and forth, the 3rd party editor decided to come up with a criteria of "strongest sources" to help us evaluate the situation and come to an accurate understanding. The 3 criteria he laid out was 1) The author had to have a PhD. in a related field 2) The work must have been published in a peer reviewed journal, scholarly press or University Press, or published in a specialized scholarly journal and 3) Had to be published within the last 50 years. This was our opportunity to search and provide sources meeting the criteria to bolster our positions on the argument. It was at this point WLRoss started to become increasingly disruptive to the consensus building process and to the dispute resolution.
			*
	::- WLRoss repeatedly made assertions without providing sources to support his arguments even when he was asked to. Even the 3rd party editor had to point out that Wayne was failing to provide sources and violating WP:OR. When he finally did get around to adding sources, they did not address the dispute at hand and instead related to our previous dispute. This exhibits behavior clearly defined in the WP:Tedious article regarding tendentious behavior where inadequate sources are provided and one who disputes the reliability of other sources.
	::- WLRoss tried to include textbooks in the table of "strongest sources" knowing that they didn't meet the criteria. You'll also see where we had a very lengthy discussion about tertiary sources and how they don't take preference of reliable secondary sources when editing a[REDACTED] article.
	::- The whole reason I had to open a new dispute resolution was because our previous dispute was whether John Punch or John Casor was the first slave in the English Colonies and now WLRoss was trying to claim that John Punch was never a slave and remained an indentured servant. As you'll notice throughout the dispute resolution WLRoss continuously changes his argument. First he argues that Punch remained an indentured servant, then he submits sources that don't support that claim and instead just mention that Casor was the first slave "where no crime was committed" which has no relevance to the current argument, and then he changes the argument to a matter of what "legality" and "legal" mean and that Punch wasn't a "legal" slave. Every time we refuted his points, he'd just switch back to repeating the same previous argument without convincing people.
	::- After reviewing the information and both sides of the argument, a consensus was formed that accurately reflected the sources given. For the second time, WLRoss stopped responding and left the discussion thus cementing our consensus.
	::- Now after over 2 months of no incidents, WLRoss is trying to revert the consensus of our dispute resolution again. What is most troubling is that WLRoss hasn't edited the Anthony Johnson article since October 1, and now, suddenly, when an editor with no account mass deletes information from the article, WLRoss shows up to make additional reverts knowing full well that I can't continue to revert against 2 editors, otherwise I'd violate the 3RR rule before either of them do. This is a blatant attempt at him gaming the system, waiting for another editor with a dissenting opinion to make changes to the article before he begins to revert the article to his own point of view, so that I can't possibly maintain the article's integrity without violating WP policy.
	::- WLRoss also includes weasel words as described by ] by including "Some" when referring to Genealogists and Historians. This is also a violation of WP:WEIGHT because it undermines the fact that John Punch was a slave and is intended to give equal weight to the claim "Some historians don't consider him a slave" which he's yet to provide a strong reliable source supporting that view. Since neither of us could find a reliable source speaking to majority or minority opinions regarding the matter, the article was written without inclusion of terms that would suggest minority or majority viewpoints, which WLRoss is now trying to add back in by using "Some" which is specifically listed as a weasel word or term. On top of this, WLRoss accuses that not including weasel words is a violation of WP:Weasel and that makes no sense.
			*
	All of these behaviors demonstrate WLRoss's abuse of[REDACTED] policies and tendentious behavior. I willingly worked through all of the dispute resolutions, meeting the criteria that was demanded for my argument while learning and adopting Misplaced Pages's policies, procedures, and etiquette at the same time. The reason why i feel I must get an administrator involved is because WLRoss has repeatedly shown this behavior and his most recent antics of reverting is the last straw.
	{{collapse bottom}}
	] (]) 14:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			Not only Scherbatsky12 was aware about, and even deleted the GS/AA notice , they still made several articles in its violation regardless and made GS/AA breaching additions that also include POV poorly sourced edits. ] (]) 16:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			:Even after this report, Scherbatsky12 still continues violating the extended confirmed restriction . ] (]) 22:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Offensive/Controversial Advertisement (possible hacking?) ==
			::Given them a on the matter. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] thank you, but aren't we over a warning here? I've already left a notice on their talk back in October and explained what it meant. They still violated the restriction numerous times and even violated again just hours ago after this report. The WP:AA3 topic area has stricter rules enforcement than most other topics, and the behavior of Scherbatsky12 isn't encouraging. ] (]) 00:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Consider revoking EC status on Scherbatsky when he reaches 501 total edits. ] (]) 00:08, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] after violating the restriction while this report is ongoing , and your final warning, they've done it again in the same article: . It's evident the user isn't competent enough to follow rules in contentious topics such as the AA3. ] (]) 21:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I apologize for the misunderstanding. What I do not understand is whether the occupation of Kalbajar by Armenian armed forces (1993) is considered controversial or problematic (). I have merely noted that Hokuma Aliyeva relocated due to the occupation of Kalbajar (). The rest resulted from careless translation and will not be repeated again.
			::This isn't about if Scherbatsky12 thinks their one edit is right or wrong: the point is they shouldn't have been editing info covered by the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction at all until reaching extended confirmed rank. The fact they still don't understand this is a clear indication of incompetence in a highly contentious topic area at that. Not only this, they continued violating the restriction while being reported here. And additionally, they're now attributing "the rest" of their POV edits to "careless translation", which is bizarre: how one doesn't even check what articles/edits they're making before publishing "translations" especially in a topic area that they were is contentious and while violating a restriction they were aware about too? After their comment here, it's not reassuring that this wouldn't happen again and is further clear to me that Scherbatsky12 isn't ] enough to edit in a contentious topic area such as the AA3. ] (]) 15:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Caribbean Hindustani ==
	I have much trouble believing that this advertisement http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Promoted_icon_finnish.gif on the page http://en.wikipedia.org/James_Webb_Space_Telescope#Reported_cost_and_schedule_issues is legitimately from Misplaced Pages. The animated GIF purports to be an NRA ad, showing a dark-faced figure in a hoodie. The viewer is apparently holding a gun, and the text reads "DEFEND YOURSELF FROM THE INTRUDER AND WIN A FREE GIFTCARD FROM THE NATIONAL IFLE ASSOCIATION". The link on the image is to the article on the NRA; there is no link to any Webpage from which any actual product could be acquired. The image appears in a box headed "Promoted Content" with text below the image reading
			*{{articlelinks|Caribbean Hindustani}}
	"Seeing ads? Wikimedia is experimenting with a new ad program. Add your thoughts here. " There is a link to https://test2.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Advertising_on_Wikipedia&action=edit&section=new .
			This is probably not the appropriate page, but I couldn't find a better one. If an admin may have a look at the version history of the ] article - there's two quite new editors battling out a dispute since December. Maybe some administrative guidance would help them. Thanks and kind regards, ] 18:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	The content has appeared on multiple computers that I have checked, including an Andriod device and from Tor, so I do not believe I have been hacked. I have been unable to locate any code in the Wiki markup that generates the ad. The ad does not appear in the previous version of the page, but the difference shown in the page history does not appear to generate the content. Furthermore, using the preview button when editing the page does not generate the ad. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:54, 28 December 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:Per the notice at the top of this page, you were supposed to alert both editors of this thread. I've done so for you. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:This: , may or may not be helpful. I'd also add that I can't force someone to discuss something on the talkpage: ] (]) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That would make sense if you'd tried discussing on the talk page, but you didn't head there until Tarbly asked you to. You can't force someone to discuss something but you can try discussing which you haven't done until now. Expecting the other party to start a discussion is rarely good editor behaviour especially when you are edit warring. Instead it's like a lame kids 'they started it' defence. The only way you can prove an editor refuses to discuss on the talk page is by trying otherwise you can both be counted as refusing to discuss. To be clear except the first sentence, this applies to both of you. ] (]) 00:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have added several sources and journel and official government and NGO sites that work on it to prove what I am writing. But that user dont have source to prove it and its just his opinion which he had written.
			:He also wrote his opinion on Hindustani page which got removed by the admin as it was false information but the same thing when I added on caribbean Hindustani page, he reverted my changes. If writing opinion as a fact and that too without any source and also the source provided dont match with the information.
			:I had talk with the user and explained several times in the edit and on talk page as well. I have explained everything which I added with source unlike him. ] (]) 04:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Potential block evasion by IP 211.184.93.253 (old IP 58.235.154.8) ==
	:Whoa! What syphilitic pus-brained idiot thought this was a good idea? I mean the candy in hand and hoody is 'brilliant'? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Promoted_icon_finnish.gif
			{{atop|1=Blocks guaranteed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	<nowiki>
			The IP ] was banned on December 29, 2024 (6 month block duration) for disruptive editing. To be specific, they would write in a delay of a Starship launch by exactly one month, without any citations.
	<tr>
	<td align="center" colspan="2"><a href="/National_Rifle_Association" title="National Rifle Association"><img alt="Promoted icon finnish.gif" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Promoted_icon_finnish.gif" width="300" height="300" /></a></td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
	<td>Seeing ads? Wikimedia is experimenting with a new ad program. <a class="external text" href="https://test2.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Advertising_on_Wikipedia&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new">Add your thoughts here.</a></td>
	</tr>
	</nowiki> ] (]) 20:05, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Guys, chill out. Scroll up to the section titled "Advertising" above and you will see a full explanation on what happened. In the meantime, jumping to conclusions like "it must have been a hack!" are not particularly helpful. Instead, search for where the content is coming from. --] <small>(])</small> 20:07, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::{{tl|Bar chart}} this time, which has already been reverted and protected --] (]) 20:17, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Turns out abuse filter 600 did detect this, but was configured incorrectly and didn't block it. The page in question just needed to be purged, it looks like. The template was reverted a while back. (The filter is now correctly configured.) --] <small>(])</small> 20:19, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::I see. I checked the bar graph page, but didn't see the "ad", hence my concern about possible hacking, since there appeared to be no generating code. I didn't realize that templates were cached (although in retrospect, the large number of templates Misplaced Pages uses would make that a necessary performance optimization.)—] (]) 20:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Just waiting on the Job Queue to flush all the translucations --] (]) 20:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			They had been banned before (two month ban) for the same behaviour.
	== User:SuzanneTXC ==
	{{archivetop|1=Speedily deleted per ] by ]. {{nac}} '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 03:26, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	So I was patrolling the new users log and clicked on this user. It seemed legit until I saw the bit about 'All Natural Testosterone Booster'. ]. I'm edgy about sending it to the CSD Line and have no idea about where to send a page that smells but seemingly can't be CSD'd so I've dashed here.
			A few examples that I sourced in my :
	Anyone who can shed light on this? ] ] ] 20:18, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{done}}, I've deleted it as ]/spam. ''']<font color="darkgreen">]</font>''' 20:37, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			IP ] is now repeating this pattern, in what appears to be block-evasion.
	==User:SALebato FBI==
	{{archivetop|1=Indef-blocked by ]. {{nac}} '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 03:20, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	{{lu|SALebato FBI}}
			Out of the five edits made by this IP:
	I'm a bit worried about this new user. So far I have not blocked him/her but have asked them to find a new username. Any comments? ] (]) 20:51, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I've blocked them for creating attack pages without sources.--v/r - ]] 21:17, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			Made before 58.235.154.8 ban, changed Flight 8 launch date from Early 2025 to February 2025. Doesn't add a source.
	== ] (same editor with two same username accounts) ==
	{{archive top|Case closed. ] (]) 22:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	This seems to be a an obvious case of ] but it's seems more complicated than it should be. Two different accounts with the same username, firstly ] created at 20:25, December 28, 2013 (see ) and ] created at 20:27, December 28, 2013 (see ) have been edit warring and making some disruptive edits at various articles. At first glance both of these look as if they are one single account but it looks like a very unique type of MediaWiki glitch where there are two different accounts with one single and exact username. Can an Administrator look into this and see what's going on here ? '''''~] ]''''' 21:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Rubbish. Any sources? ] (]) 21:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::: One has username starting with English letter ] and other has username starting with greek letter ]. Clever malicious move though. :) ]] 21:34, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::: The response on their talk leads me to conclude they ]. ] ] ] 21:55, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	*From the helpful answer given by Hitro and Ritchie, it looks it was a spoof attempt by the person to create two same named different accounts only for disruption/vandalism. And both the accounts have now been blocked, so I believe the situation is resolved and this thread can now be closed. '''''~] ]''''' 22:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			Delays ] on ] from February 2025 to March 2025. No source added.
	== I am feeling intimitated by Yambaram ==
			Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.
	For around ten hours ago, ] my discussions att the talk page, claiming that "you're not allowed to blank your talk page, see WP:ARCHIVENOTDELETE archive it properly or you". Then he a comment saying that:
			Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches, again from February to March. No source added.
	:'''Deleting material and POV-editing'''
	:I'm writing you this warning message because as you may or may not know, a talk page needs to be archived properly, not deleted. Repeated violation of ] will lead to you being blocked.
			Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.
	The bolded text is the title of the section. His two other edits under that period were "and POV-editing" and his comment.
			This is either a similarly disruptive editor, or more likely, a ban evader continuing their vandalism. Either way, they are ]. ] (]) 19:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	I responded him by pointing to ]. He then said that he did not know about that. Personally, before suggesting to others that they are violating a policy and linking to it, and issuing threats about getting blocked, I would read very carefully about the policies. Then you would most likely find ]. However, while I accept that he did not know about the user talk page-policy, I believe he sees it as a ] and wants me to keep it. While would he otherwise reinsert except the bot messages? I think his response shows even more clearly that this is his agenda:
			:Additionally, geolocate places both IP addresses in the same region, which makes it quite likely that they are evading a ban.
	:Well, to be honest I actually didn't know of that, so please do as you wish now. The fact that you choose to consistently delete posts from your talk page instead of archiving the which is Misplaced Pages policy's "preferred" option means a lot, as there must be a reason behind it. What are you hiding? You have exposed your POV-pushing editing style everywhere, and other editors have told you about it already. Anyway, I can only guess how long this comment will stay before it gets removed too. -Yambaram (talk) 20:37, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
			:
			: ] (]) 19:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. ] (]) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::] ] (]) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks! ] (]) 23:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) (added after discussion close)
			{{abot}}
			== Danny5784 ==
	Instead of accepting that his edits and claims were wrong, he keeps on with his intimidating attacks against me. I of course find it very unpleasing and hopes it will stop, which seem to be impossible without someone pointing out to him that his behaviour is not acceptable. And the focus should be on the articles, not me. --] (]) 02:27, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|Danny5784}} does not seem to have the maturity and judgement to be a productive editor. Despite ] and efforts by multiple editors to explain things to them, they are continuing to create unneeded pages. Of the 18 articles they've created, 9 have been redirected (mostly at AfD), 2 deleted, and 4 currently have unanimous delete/redirect consensus at AfD. Three of their most recent creations are particularly noteworthy:
	:You are allowed to delete content from your user page through normal editing. It is still available through the talk page history. ] is referring to the admin delete tool. Admins cannot delete user talk pages which would remove the page history from public view. That's different from removing it through editing.--v/r - ]] 02:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			* After ] was declined by {{u|Stuartyeates}}, and I ] that such pages are not notable, Danny5784 ].
	:::I disagree, {{u|TParis|TP}} - the wording seems clear that it refers to removing the content without copying it to an archive for easy access. That said, it ''is'' a guideline, rather than a policy. --] 11:35, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			* Danny5784 created ] with poor sourcing, much of it from a user-generated wiki. After {{u|Djflem}} wrangled it into a useful list, Danny5784 created both ] and ] apparently as ].
	::::It's also talking about article talk pages. The next section down says "Personal talk page cleanup: On your own user talk page, you may archive threads at your discretion. Simply deleting others' comments on your talk page is permitted, but most editors prefer archiving."--v/r - ]] 14:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			Danny5784 also has issues with copyright: they uploaded a large number of now-deleted files on Commons and ], then did ] here, plus using blatantly false non-free content criteria.
	::"For around ten hours ago," ... Wat? ] (]) 02:34, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::It's a language barrier. Not everyone speaks English as a first language. Please don't gripe over their grammar.--v/r - ]] 02:35, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::If it's a language barrier that person should edit the Misplaced Pages for the languages they can speak fluently, so yes I will "gripe over their grammar". In this case it isn't that bad so I was just asking for clarification. ] (]) 02:43, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::This is the encyclopedia that "anyone can edit" not just "people who speak English well". Take your snobby ass somewhere else if you can't handle other cultures editing this encyclopedia.--v/r - ]] 03:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:: Okay. I know that I did not break any policy. What I see as the problem is Yambaram's behaviour. It must stop.
			With 460 edits over 15 months, Danny5784 is past the point where these can just be dismissed as newbie mistakes. They are a ] editor who is unwilling or unable to follow basic norms such as notability, reliable sourcing, and copyright. Until they demonstrate more maturity, I believe a prohibition from page creation (article, template, and file upload) is needed. ] (]) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:: Swedish is my first language. This type of wording is normal. It gives around 8.5 million hits on Google. But please lets focus on the topic. --] (]) 02:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			<!--{{hat|1=A wild ] appears. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}}-->
	:::Just ignore him. No administrator is going to act on his word alone and we all know the applicable policy.--v/r - ]] 03:04, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Incorrect and no. No prohibition is necessary. You would need to teach and show him how it is done.
			:Don't even try to prohibit him. Over 15 months of editing, you still don't even accept it?! What is wrong with you? Your more stricter than ] so, knock it off and NO PROBITION! And also, he's trying his best to do it right. ] (]) 23:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. ] (]) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. ] (]/]) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear {{confirmed}} result.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. ] (]) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::{{ping|Liz}} I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			<!--{{hab}}-->
			:::::::No problem, ever, with unarchiving, ]. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I just try to help run a clean ship. And no worries! As far as I can tell the template's working, but will leave this unhatted given that. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:26, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::As the editor who declined the article above at AfC, I'd encourage admins to shepherd young newbies towards AfC and similar venues. It's what we're hear for (if anything I should have given better comments in my decline). ] (]) 08:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Afghanistan edit war ==
			:Clerical note that this user is not the ] DannyS712. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User LivinAWestLife vandalizing Republican Party article ==
	I'm having issues trying to figure out what to do in response to an edit war that's on-going at {{pagelinks|Afghanistan}} and {{pagelinks|South Asian cuisine}}. The debate is centered on what part of Asia to classify Afghanistan as, and whether the article should say South Asia then Central Asia or Central Asia then South Asia (which seems a little silly to me to debate but....whatever).
			{{u|LivinAWestLife}} made a large change to the Republican Party article which changed the ideology of the party from the consensus Center-right to fascist. They quickly then changed the text to "far-right" . Any seasoned editor should know such behavior is beyond reckless and clearly disruptive. ] (]) 00:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	The involved users:
	* {{user5|Nikhilmn2002}}
	* {{user5|Feysalafghan}}
	* {{user5|Smsarmad}}
			:Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back. ] (]) 00:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	Feysalafghan and Smsarmad have dueling 3RR reports at ] and ] (though this one is barely a report since it's not formatted at all properly).
			::Vandalism is vandalism and is ''not'' funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a ''very'' low tolerance for trolls, ''especially'' in contentious topics. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Also worth noting that ]. Regards, ]. (] &#124; ]). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::There are several people who feel the current discussion of political ideology of the Republican party is non-neutral. Disruptive drive-by edits actually make correcting such problems harder rather than easier. So please stop. ] (]) 12:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::There was over half an hour in which the edits in question were live before they were reverted by a third party so "minutes at most" doesn't seem very applicable. If you ''really'' have a primal urge to vandalize an article, there is a correct way to do so without disrupting the wiki - see ]. ] (]) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Extremely unbecoming to do something like this during a major political transition. This causes thousands of people to further distrust Misplaced Pages. It could even be outright dangerous. Even more ridiculous to hide behind humor. I'm not anyone important but I want to convey to you directly how outrageous I find this to be. ] (]) 02:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Couldn't you have just used inspect element? ] (]) 02:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You're taking a ''very'' long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. ] (]) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «''Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back''» and there are no consequences? ] (]) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::If there's no further disruption and they've recognized what they did was wrong and committed to not do it again then a trout is likely sufficient. Of course if there's further disruption that would be a different matter entirely. ] (]) 16:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::They've gotten a level four vandalism warning and are now put at the end of their ]. In my opinion, everything is in order here. Per above, disruption either won't continue, and if it does, further sanctions will follow. ] (]) 16:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Per the idea that blocks etc should be preventative not punitive, I agree that no further action seems like the correct option. Certainly LivinAWestLife is/should be clearly aware that their actions were not acceptable and I agree that they slid to the end of the rope. However, absent additional actions like this we are probably done. ] (]) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Editor repeatedly reverting edits ==
	I'm not entirely sure what to do with the reports and the situations so would appreciate other admins' insights. Feysalafghan seems to be committed the most editing warring infractions here, and seems to have some ] in calling other users "non-adults" on the 3RR report , so I'm tempted to block him.
			{{Userlinks|Cambial_Yellowing}}
			This editor is starting ] again, just reverted , and has done this before with these edits and , repeatedly.!
	Should the page be protected? Should blocks be implemented on any of these users? I'm just not able to wrap my mind around a proper response so I'm seeking other input. And, please, any admin is welcome to take any actions they feel is appropriate here without consulting with me first. Thanks in advance, ] (]) 02:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			I tried to communicate on ] but editor just went away!
	:Blocks all around, first off. We can determine who is right later, which isn't an exemption to edit warring so it's not important to determine it first. The rest is a content dispute and should be handled on the talk page but it's an easy answer. Refer to it like the sources do. If 70% of them say one thing and 30% say another, say both but say which one is used more, ect.--v/r - ]] 02:34, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			For such behavior the editor has been
	::Also, invoke the ] while you block them.--v/r - ]] 02:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I know nothing about this arbitration case nor the enforcement of it. Can someone who's more familiar with it please look into this edit war and take action? Thanks, ] (]) 11:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Too much time has passed since the warring at this point, so I've issued a warning to Feysalafghan about the Arbcom restrictions. Next time can be a block.--v/r - ]] 18:45, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	* For the convenience for those who like to take any administrative action against me: I admit/realize that I ] and if I was an admin I would have blocked myself, so if I am blocked I would not complain or request an unblock regardless of whether an administrative action is taken against other users or not. So if anyone is confused whether I should be blocked or not please block me as I am unable to edit anyway with the sword swinging over my head that whether I will be blocked or not. -- ] <sup>]</sup> 12:10, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			This editor last time also pushed me to violate ] ,
	== Threatening editor ==
			While i was trying to improve the ] article by moving criticism out of the theology section to separate criticism section, as per
	{{archive top|result=IP blocked, and comments removed. <font style="padding:2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 05:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			] where it is clearly mentioned
	, I caught it while perusing recent changes. This would appear to be a threat of one anonymous user to another. I'm not sure how seriously to take the threat; it doesn't really give a specific violent act threat, but it's indicative. ] ]] 04:01, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Not an anonymous editor, was an account with the threat. Indefblocked with hardblock activated. ] (]) 04:04, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::There was also the IP before that edit, but it wasn't quite as severe. ] (]) 04:06, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			"''In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title, for example, if there is a large body of critical material, and if independent secondary sources comment, analyze or discuss the critical material.''"
	*Erm, ], that ''is'' an IP address (specifically an ] address), unless I'm way sleepier than I think I am. Could you please give it a non-indefinite block instead?''' —&nbsp;<u>]]</u>'''] 05:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	**That's new to me, thanks for the headsup ]. Reduced to 72 hours. ] (]) 00:50, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
			Because, before this, i was reading similar article, ] and the criticism section make it easy to understand.
	== User:O'Dea ==
	{{archivetop|status=BOOMERANG|1=OP blocked for one week by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 07:58, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	User:O'Dea whom i have never heard of came over to the 2014 in article for the United States that i have for the last 4 years and with some 2000 good edits (such as ] https://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/Contributors.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&grouped=on&page=2011_in_the_United_States, ] https://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/Contributors.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&grouped=on&page=2012_in_the_United_States, ] https://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/Contributors.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&grouped=on&page=2013_in_the_United_States, and ] https://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/Contributors.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&grouped=on&page=2014_in_the_United_States) tirelessly worked on and began to vandalize the page when i tried to stop him he got my ip address blocked (i normally never bother to spend the time to log in so my address is 68.231.15.56 (my old ip address was 70.162.171.210 but my ip carrier changed it)) then he used my block to again vandalize the page. I have never heard of this user he suddenly appeared a few days ago and began wholesale vandalism of the this page ] - he made a few idiotic statements about why he thought he should do what he was doing and my reverts and continued to vandalize the page as in here https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2014_in_the_United_States&diff=588164742&oldid=588153015 --] (]) 05:20, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:when i disagreed and reverted his vandalism he threatened me with block and later got an admin to do so--] (]) 05:26, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			I don't know why the editor doesn't understand ] and ] are not the same thing, which is common sense, but I was punished for using my common sense before, and now this again! ] (]) 02:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::* The question of whether this user ever heard of me is irrelevant. That goes both ways; it is meaningless.
	::* It is incorrect to claim that I had him blocked. He may inspect my edit history to confirm this; he will not find me initiating action against him. The block was an independent initiative by an administrator.
	::* This user, ], performed disruptive edits at ] under the IP identity ]. He, the IP editor, was blocked from editing for these actions today. I was not involved in that block, but I did warn him a few days ago that his behaviour could lead to it.
	::* He listed events which will occur in 2015 in the 2014 article.
	::* He formatted edits in violation of ] and ].
	::* He violated ] on my talk page and in edit summaries by making unfounded accusations of disruption and vandalism, and using foul language.
	::* He makes false claims about the content of Misplaced Pages policies to support his actions.
	::* Today's block is not his first. He was blocked in the past because of his behaviours.
	::* In toto, he is belligerent, resentful, disruptive, and operates a policy of angry edit reversions without care for the policies he violates. ] (]) 05:43, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Hello, ],
	::::quote "he is belligerent" i guess i must be so because you say so
			:First ] is the noticeboard to report edit-warring, secondly, you haven't provided any diffs of edit warring and, first and foremost, no one can "push" you to violate our guidelines on edit-warring, take responsibility for your own mistakes. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::quote "He makes false claims about the content of Misplaced Pages policies to support his actions" i have made little of claims because i have had to endlessly defend agains datelinking issues in the past and was told in no uncertain terms to just revert such wrongheaded activities - the bad user quotes both ] and ] neither of which apply to year in articles which are for the millionth time i have to state "INSTRINSICALLY DATE ORIENTED WORKS AND ARE THEREBY EXEMPT"--] (]) 05:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::Also, ANI should be where you come when other methods of communication have failed. Have you started a discussion on the article talk page or posted to their user talk page about your differences? Give it a shot before coming to ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	*OP blocked for edit warring per their and block evasion. ]] 06:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::Sorry@] actually before this, i went on your to discuss and waited for days, and about previous revertes i have provided . ] (]) 02:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			:::Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's '''your''' action, not theirs. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::They are the one who started removing/reverting repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are . Plese see ] edit history. ] (]) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It's good you have accepted that mistake, but you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen again, no matter what another editor "starts". ] is a bright line. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, Sokoreq, that was my fault, I'm behind responding to talk page messages, I apologize for that. But I didn't mean that you should post a template on Cambial Yellowing's user talk page that was more suitable for a new editor (and they have been editing for over 5 years), I meant actually talking through a discussion. I can see that another editor already posted on their User talk page about the article talk page, you could have joined that discussion or posted on the article talk page. Again, my apologies about my lack of responsiveness. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::They edit in group, while i started a discussion but then first editor didn't explanation much and went for a week, again today I tried on ] but didn't receive any reply, I apologize for any inconvenience but this is very new for me. ] (]) 02:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I respect they are senior editors, but I don't understand what they are upto and there is some discussion on the ] for months is hard to understand. The talk page is messy; it's difficult to understand who is who and what is what? ] (]) 02:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] is related to this. Sokoreq's response to being reverted was to baselessly accuse an editor of COI and harassment . When someone else reverted them they too were accused of harassment . After the COIN discussion didn't go their way, they continued to double down on COI accusations: . This latest report is more of the same. Despite being directed there numerous times by several editors, they still have not posted on the article's associated talk page - ever. I suggest that a ] sanction is appropriate here. - ] (]) 03:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Vandalism only account ==
			::? <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue">''']'''</span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue">]</span> 03:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivetop|1=Attack of the ]; OP indef-blocked by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 07:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			::@] Yeh, I went to the ] noticeboard a week ago. It's closed now, because I didn't have evidence to prove. and the editor was also repeatedly reverting without explanation and suddenly went for a week. I have discussed the matter with that editor on my . What do you want to prove through this? ] (]) 03:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	Hi, could someone please block user Nehapant19. Removing my article deletion nominaton and vandalising ] article for a long time.--] (]) 06:12, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			*Sokoreq, that article talk page is quite an immense discussion on one specific aspect of the article that has nothing to do with your interests so I'd just start a new discussion there. I also see that you just removed a discussion on your user talk page with ] from your own talk page and asked them not to post on it any longer. You will not get very far on a collaborative editing project if you refust to actually communicate with editors you have disagreements with. Actual discussion, with opinions, arguments, diffs and sources with other editors is how consensus is formed on this project. But you can't seek to eliminate every editor you disagree with or you will not be editing here for a long time. It can be challenging but every editor on this project has to find a way to work with editors who have differences with and that is usually accomplished, not through coming to a noticeboard but by presenting a solid argument on an article talk page and convincing other editors that your position is stronger. But ANI doesn't exist to get rid of other editors who revert you. If edit-warring is an actual problem, which doesn't seem to be the case here, then post a formal case at ]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			::By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I read over ] discussion and I haven't said anything to you that you weren't already told at COIN. What is your resistance to having a discussion on the article talk page? That should be your first destination when you have a disagreement, not ANI. Now, I'm going to stop because I'm just repeating advice that you've already been given. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Liz, this is really helpful. I hope they will communicate.! Thank you for creating space on the discussion page. I will keep this in mind for next time. And for formal cases, I will post on ]. Thanks again ] (]) 04:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			Usually, when an editor returns to their edit war after being blocked, without once contributing to the article talk page discussions, they are blocked.
	== ] and "Trivia" ==
			I think a good case can be made for Sokoreq is ] , those diffs () show an inability to work with others and take accountability for their own actions. The subsequent ], ] and and the behavior that led to this discussion show that it's unlikely to end without further intervention. --] (]) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	Johnny Squeaky seems to feel that many sections (especially "In popular culture" sections) should instead be labelled with the less precise/less descriptive "Trivia". Some of these sections ''do'' need to be cleaned up (often as indiscriminate listing of occurrences under ]). Numerous discussions with him have demonstrated what I believe is a against these changes, after much name calling and labeling of much of the discussion as "threats" and "bullying". ] (]) 06:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:First, you have '''*not*''' had "numerous" ''discussions'' with me on this subject. Yes, you have ''threatened to have me blocked'', you have ''threatened to bring me up on charges'' here, <u>but discussion?</u> Nope, ''you have never attempted to engaged me in quality meaningful discussion on any Talk Page on this subject, in a friendly way.''
			:I don't know what you're up to, but , I was just trying to understand your disagreements. But, you went away for days. I don’t have anything personal against you now, and I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above. I will discuss any future disagreements on the article's talk page. Thanks ] (]) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Now '''back on subject''', "Trivia" is not "less precise/less descriptive", "In Popular Culture" is non-descriptive and ''inaccurate'', simply a "more polite" synonym. =//= ] 07:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::{{tq| I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above}} That's not what you did, and that's disruptive. --] (]) 00:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:
			:::], can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	Edit warring in defense of his preferred version resulted in locking an article and a warning and a block. ] (]) 06:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::There doesn't appear to be any olive branch being offered. The comments from Sokoreq, here and elsewhere, have me wondering if {{they are|Sokoreq}} using an AI or auto-translator to communicate with us. I see very little understand of what's being written, less still of actual policy, all while downplaying or ignoring, often misrepresenting, {{their|Sokoreq}} own behavior. --] (]) 02:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Not so, I do not like "edit waring" at all, and usually end up losing to powerful editors with connections. But the fact is, "In Popular Culture" is a disingenuous term for the more accurate "Trivia", used to avoid the "stigma" of calling trivia what it is. =//= ] 07:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:
	(Additionally, but a bit off topic, I cautioned him against making repeated unsubstantiated claims that another editor was using socks. Squeaky was later identified as using a sock.) ] (]) 06:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:It is ''off topic'' <u>and not the subject of this discussion</u>. '''You comment is inappropriate''', and essentially "bad mouthing" as it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. ''Shame on you'', especially since you just accused *me* of threats and name calling. Wow. =//= ] 07:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:
	With , I'm done. - ] (]) 06:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I'm not interested in "edit waring" about this, but serious discussion about what is "trivia" and what is "In Popular Culture" is not going on. Factually, much of what is titled "In Popular Culture" is in fact trivia, and the ] article is a perfect example: The section titled "In Popular Culture" is clearly a random list of "factoids", otherwise known as "trivia", and it should be honestly labeled and tagged as such. The reason that people tend to lable "trivia" as "In Popular Culture" is that "trivia" is discouraged. But if "In Popular Culture" is used as a synonym to get around proper and honest ladling of trivia as "trivia", is this correct? Isn't that just a dishonest subterfuge? Seriously, I'm not the one trying to include "discouraged" content, and insisting on mislabeling it as something that it is not. If certain editors don't like "trivia", perhaps they should work it into the article or get rid of it, not badmouth me for bringing some honesty to the subject. =//= ] 07:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::The topic here is not what to call the sections, but whether or not there is a ] that you ] and are editing against. - ] (]) 07:09, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::The topic here is *exactly* what to call sections: If it's trivia, the section should be called "Trivia" and tagged with the "trivia" tag. And as to "consensus", you, sir, have exactly zero discussions on the article pages you have started "edit wars" with me on this subject that show any "consensus" for your point of view. It's simply amazing to read you keep bringing up "consensus" for this article or that when in fact '''you''' ''have none''. =//= ] 07:15, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	In addition, '''''it takes *two* to "edit war"''''', and ] seems to enjoy following me around Misplaced Pages and ''starting'' them. Some might call this an obsession, other might call it "stalking", I call it annoying and unproductive. ] likes to make ''threats'' and bring things up here, but has '''*NEVER*''' ''engaged'' me ''politely'' on a Talk Page to ''discuss'' my edits. =//= ] 07:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Johnny Squeaky, you know from experience that a single editor can edit war against several other editors who only revert once or twice. It doesn't always take two to edit war. As a matter of fact, that's exactly the sort of behavior that led to you being blocked in October. And yet you continue this tendentious editing pattern, with all the bolds and asterisks and italics, insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Perhaps it is time for a topic ban for you on "trivia" and "in popular culture" sections. ] ] 07:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:JS, can you refrain from inserting your comments in to the middle of someone elses? Such discussion style tends to confuse more than it helps, particularly when the discussion grows long with multiple replies as we would frequently expect at ANI. Also SPhD is correct this discussion should have nothing to do with what to call the sections. That's a ] so not something that would be dealt with at ANI but instead via one of the methods outlined at ]. The actions of participants in that content dispute can of course be scrutinised (and this will be their conduct, in other words largely seperate from whether people agree or disagree with the end result of their actions). I haven't looked enough at any actions here to comment specifically, but as I said a few sections above, someone who repeatedly make mass changes to a large number of articles when it's clear that they lack any sort of consensus for said changes is almost definitely behaving ] and should resonably be expected to be blocked or topic banned or both. Others shouldn't edit war over such changes, but reversion of them a single time will generally be acceptable per ]. If the person keeps making those changes, thats when the block or topic ban starts to come in. As for the sockpuppet issue, while it's largely an aside and people's previous behaviour shouldn't always be brought up particularly when it's largely irrelevant, you also cannot resonably expect your previous behaviour to be always ignored, even if it's largely distinct from any current problems. Definitely mentioning that someone has been proven to have violated WP:SOCK in the past if that claim is correct, is quite different from someone repeatedly making unsubtaniated claims of sockpuppetry. ] (]) 08:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			== Trolling at ] ==
	:As ] (]), it took ''several'' to edit war: you and the several editors you reverted who disagreed with you. When you take actions that generate warnings and see all warnings as uncivil threat, you will see lots of "uncivil threats" (from lots of editors). To my tired eyes, all of my comments on your talk page, my talk page and various article talk pages seem to be civil. That you and I have repeatedly disagreed on this topic does not mean that I have not engaged you politely or discussed the issue. As you see me as part of the cabal of thugs with connections to all of the right editors out to get you, there is no way that I could possibly convince you otherwise. - ] (]) 08:05, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Done (for now). - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{IPvandal|2600:1700:9366:e040:506c:d71c:7e0b:3528}}
	::Summer, I'm not here to discuss your bullying (see your off-topic discussion above), nor get off into railroading on the subject of "edit waring". As you have the "connections", ''you can and will have me blocked'' if you choose to do so, I accept that. The real subject here is Trivia.
			] please. ] ] 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:]? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 17:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The fact is, "consensus" about trivia in one article, one context, does not extend across all articles and all contexts. Saying, as you have, that there is "consensus" Misplaced Pages-wide that "Trivia" will not be used is misleading and untrue. The fact is, "Trivia" is no more (or less) than "discouraged" as clearly supported by the fact that a "trivia" tag exists. The issue is honesty. The issue is not labeling trivia as "In Popular Culture" when it is more accurately described as "trivia". The issue is that "In Popular Culture" is in many (not all) cases a disingenuous synonym for "Trivia", used for the sake of appearances to make it look more serious, when it's just trivia.
			::No response there; strictly speaking it might not be the most obvious vandalism in any case.--] ] 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have requested protection for the talk page. I'll see how it goes. I have suspicion of meatpuppetry/canvassing from 4chan. ] (]) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::It's clear you folks don't really want to have meaningful discussion about this, but would rather bully your view. That's fine, it doesn't reflect negatively on me, I'm ready to have friendly discussion, within the context of each article as to the appropriateness withing the context of that article (as it the proper way to do it). But I know that you folks have already made up your mind to block me, so why not just do it and get it out of the way? Since you folks don't seem to want to engage in actual discussion of what is the real subject here, it's pointless for me to waste more time on it. And it's really too bad, railroading might "feel good" in a narcissistic way, but it really is not productive. =//= ] 08:28, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::Semi-protected now, thanks ] ] (]) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Though I have not said that "Trivia" will be used, this discussion is about whether or not you are hearing the consensus repeatedly demonstrated that sections about subjects' impact on popular culture are called "In popular culture" and are editing against that consensus. - ] (]) 08:34, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			* IP blocked and page protected for a short period. I'm guessing this first month we will see a lot of these types of editors. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::What view? I haven't expressed an opinion on what the section should be called and frankly I haven't thought about it enough to care. As I indicated in my first response, if you think that anyone opposed to your actions is automatically opposed to your idea, then you clearly don't understand how[REDACTED] works and that's your problem and not going to help you achieve consensus. And I don't know your history, but it sounds like you've been to ANI before so you should have known before my reply if not definitely after my reply, that ANI is not the place to engage in such a discussion.
			**{{ping|Isabelle Belato|Acroterion}} Needs talk page access yanked too.--] ] 18:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::If you want to engage in discussion on the subject, you should start such a centralised discussion in an appropriate place rather than trying to change articles enmass hoping no one will notice and then accusing people of being uncivil or blaming them for following you when they object. But such a discussion will need to take place before your edits, and if you keep carrying out your edits while the discussion is taking place or before you have consensus, you shouldn't be surprised if people get too distracted or just don't bother to discuss the issue. In fact, while a localised consensus may not necessarily speak to a wider consensus, if you have a localised consensus against your actions that's an even bigger sign you need to either seek such a wider consensus for them or give up on your edits, not move on to some other article which you think may be unwatched and try your luck.
			**:Done. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::In other words, if anyone is trying to railroad something, it clearly isn't the other participants. And BTW, you're wrong about the other thing as well. As I said, I know little of your history. Sorry to say, what I've seen hasn't given me reason to think you being blocked would be a great loss to wikipedia, but by the same token I also haven't seen enough to make me think[REDACTED] would be better off with your blocked. (Unlike say the editor discussed in the the topic below who from the little I've seen we probably would be better of losing. Although I'm by no means blaming the admins involved for not indefing them yet.) All I want is for you to stop your edits and either achieve consensus for them and continue or not do so and don't repeat them. In either case, I would hope you'd then go on to make great contributions to wikipedia, in which case I'd be happy you weren't blocked. Of course if you continue to make mass changes without consensus then I can't help calling for a topic ban or block, but it's not something I want to happen.
			{{abot}}
	:::] (]) 12:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' While "In popular culture" sections do often include trivia, they equally often include commentary about the influence or the culture impact of a work or person which is of encyclopedic value. Ideally our aim should be to reduce or remove the trivia while leaving in the encylopedic stuff, so changing the titles of these sections is counter-productive: i) it doesn't address the presence of trivia itself; ii) naming these sections "trivia" actually encourages the addition of more trivia! If Johnny really wants to be part of the solution in tackling trivia on Misplaced Pages then he needs to realize that renaming these sections is not helping. I think a ban from retitling trivia/popular culture sections is the order of the day. ] (]) 09:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*:::Jonny knows perfectly well that this has been going on for over two years with at least six editors repeatedly stating that he does not have consensus to add trivia tags. The following are a few from this year. Also socking and constantly edit warring . He goes by the name of ] and ] and many other titles. He is not listening or hearing other editors and shows no desire to take on board what any one else says after dozens of repeated efforts. I'm not sure what point there is in a topic ban. This isn't about trivia, this about not respecting the guidelines of the community and the inability to work as part of a group. He was blocked again until Dec 25 and the minute it comes off he starts on the same "]" routine. He is a patently disruptive editor who needs an indefinite ban. <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">] (])</font> 15:12, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::In response to Jonny Squeaky's plea that no editors want to enter into 'proper discussion' , after which he carried on regardless. (also linked above) <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">] (])</font> 15:17, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::A topic ban of Squeaky changing any section heading to 'trivia' and adding any trivia tags would stop the immediate problem which from what I've read mostly relates to this. If the problem extends to discussion in this area, then the topic ban could likewise be extended to discussion in this area. It's possible Squeaky would then repeat the poor behaviour in other areas or simply not respect the topic ban, such behaviour would likely lead to an indef block or community ban if it continues. On the other hand, there may be merit to simply blocking now. I was simply wanting to point out that if an editor refuses to either accept the community consensus or accept the need for consensus in a specific area or is otherwise making problems in a specific area, they can be told to leave that area in the hope (vain or not) that they will be less problematic in other areas (it helps if they're already demonstrated this which I'm not sure is the case here). ] (]) 20:23, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''': Johnny has a long history of 1) changing section headings (mostly IPC, but also others) to "Trivia" 2) edit-warring with the multiple people who revert his edits 3) accusing everyone who disagrees with him of offenses ranging from COI to sockpuppetry, with little to no supporting evidence 4) alternately removing attempts at discussion from his talk page, or going on that do not serve to advance any understanding. The edit-warring and battleground behaviours also extend beyond the "Trivia" issue, as for example in ]. Perhaps a 1RR restriction would be helpful, although the "discussion" tactics also need to be addressed. ] (]) 15:59, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''': Trivia must be determined *article by article* unless *UNLESS* there is a policy statement from the Wikilords that "trivia" is unlawful. That "In Popular Culture" is OK as a synonym for "trivia" for *one* article does not propagate to all. Folks are trying to say because it was decided for X article, it's automatically good for all, and this is just a silly idea. Context is important. And again, thanks guys for making this "personal" when it's not. It just shows the kind if bias that develops with the "in crowd", and why Misplaced Pages is regularly trashed in the media. =//= ] 01:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:* While I'll agree that SummerPhD has a tendency to be an aggressively creepy WikiStalker, you should probably read ] more carefully, and when in doubt, post a note on the talk page letting other users comment on your proposed changes. Some people are sensitive about their indiscriminate triviacruft "in popular culture" sections--personally, I like to get rid of them with the finesse of a surgeon doing brain surgery with a shovel. But exercise a little good sense, make the effort at being transparent about your intentions and what you propose to do on the talk page (most of them aren't even read...after a week, no response, take it as a tacit approval. if your proposal is resisted, kick rocks for a few weeks be patient and raise the issue again in a month and maybe the consensus will change), and take care of it according to WP:HTRIVIA. Misplaced Pages doesn't benefit from "trivia" unless it has an encyclopaedic purpose that elaborates on the meaning of the subject. Most trivia is bullshit that should be deleted. However, you're acting a little too much like a cowboy.--] (]) 03:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::*Again, this is about working with Misplaced Pages guidelines and listening to other editors. Accusations of conspiracy and backscratching WikiLords abound. This is nothing to do with an 'in crowd'. <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">] (])</font> 13:11, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Not an admin, but my experiences with Johnny suggest an attitude of ] and a lack of interest in abiding by consensus if he feels he knows better. He also has what I'd consider a non-helpful though admittedly technically non-actionable pattern of simply blanking his Talk page which, coupled with his editing patterns, suggest to me that he's not so much interested in collaborating with his fellow editors as trying to force through his own views. Unfortunately, I'm forced to agree that a topic ban seems a reasonable course of action if Johnny is unwilling to acknowledge any wrongdoing and/or agree to make more of an effort to procure consensus for his changes. I led what I would call an overly-detailed discussion on the subject on one article (the specific article escapes me at present) to ensure that Johnny's changes didn't have consensus, only to have him disregard the findings in any case (I believe that led to a block). ] (]) 14:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Ah, here's two instances of Johnny being blocked for edit-warring: , . The second one relates to the discussion I felt we shouldn't have needed to have at ]. ] (]) 14:35, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	===Proposal===
	{{archive top|status=Passed|result=Per community consensus, {{User|Johnny Squeaky}} is restricted to the ] throughout the project, and is prohibited from changing the title of section headings to "Trivia", broadly construed. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:29, 2 January 2014‎</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->}}
	In order to resolve the issues discussed above, I propose the following restriction, appealable to the community: Johnny Squeaky cannot change any section heading to "Trivia". He is further to observe a ] in all situations.
	*'''Support''' as proposer. <small>Ping ], ], ] ], ], ], ], ].</small> ] (]) 16:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' ''unless'' Johnny is willing to a) acknowledge that he has been making edits without consensus and b) agree that he will not make any further edits of this nature without beginning an appropriate dialogue first (I'd define appropriate as, at minimum, a Talk page conversation that involves at least two additional editors, and ideally a project page conversation). ] (]) 16:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	* '''Support''' - Sensible proposal. I'd also add that "Trivia" is such a bad section header because it is s cheaply unencyclopaedic. I echo DonIago in admonishing Johnny to always to attempt consensus before such potentially problematic edits, first on the talk page and reaching out to relevant project pages...use the one-week rule as I mentioned above. If trivia can't be incorporated in the article properly, it should be removed. But reckless antics such as this do nothing to further dialogue regarding the merits of such content. --] (]) 16:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	* '''Support''' - A useful restriction, given this editor's continued behavior. ] (]) 19:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' a ban on '''''any''''' edits to do with 'popular culture' and 'trivia' though I doubt it with make him ]. Behaviour with socks, edit warring and conspiracy accusations suggests to me that the editor neither understands / agrees with the basic way WP works. <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">] (])</font> 23:05, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' This has been going on long enough, and a topic ban is worth trying before a block. ] (]) 00:08, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' It is clearly time for these restrictions. ] ] 00:42, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' After looking at this user's edit history and behavior in the above discussion, this seems to be the only solution that might be workable. --] (]) 13:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	Given that we seem to have a consensus, and I'm not aware of any admins having an issue with this proposal (they haven't said anything?), and I'd like to see this acted on rather than archived due to inactivity, I guess I'm both bouncing this and hoping that we can move it forward. I apologize if I'm out of line here. ] (]) 03:11, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== Serious personal attack against a teenager ==
	{{archivetop|1=Indef-blocked by ] <small>(and while I don't necessarily agree with editors telling each other to on here, your comments ''do'' sound pretty cold, CombatWombat)</small>. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:14, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	is a serious personal attack against an editor. I want to draw AN's attention as Soham is a youngster (most probably 14 years old). Some sites including Facebook give special attention in such cases.<span style="background:orange;border:orange ridge">]</span><span style="color:blue;background:white;otit;border-bottom-style:ridge;">☸</span><span style="background:#57C738;border:green ridge">]</span> 10:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I personally think that editors who make those sort of personal attacks deserve to be blocked, but I fear the community as a whole disagrees with me. ]] (]) 10:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:* {{Reply to|StAnselm}} I completely agree with you. In addition, I just discovered, I don't know how we protect under 18 editors here in Misplaced Pages. Do we have any special page? If we have please direct me to that page. If it becomes irrelevant here, you may post at my talk page too. Thank you. <span style="background:orange;border:orange ridge">]</span><span style="color:blue;background:white;otit;border-bottom-style:ridge;">☸</span><span style="background:#57C738;border:green ridge">]</span> 10:13, 29 December 2013 (UTC) This seems to be the page ] <span style="background:orange;border:orange ridge">]</span><span style="color:blue;background:white;otit;border-bottom-style:ridge;">☸</span><span style="background:#57C738;border:green ridge">]</span> 10:17, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::{{nao}}May I point to the made by this editor the last time they were blocked. Editors should not have to put up with this sort of abuse.] ] 10:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:If you are going to pontificate about child protection, it might be a good idea to avoid speculating about the ages of other Wikipedians.-- ] (]) 10:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::*{{ec}}Yes I am 15, I have no reservations about revealing my age here. I don't know how to react. Most probably I'll go into retirement, a decision I've been toying around lately. I have requested for this editor to be blocked by the last blocking admin on grounds of ] ]. ] 10:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::*The user has been blocked for a week (again). However, things are different now, and it is extremely likely that a repeat of the attack on you would result in them being indefinitely blocked. My suggestion would be to ignore the issue and let others deal with it. Looking for the positive side of this incident, I'm afraid that one encounters out-of-the-blue nonsense like this in real life as well, although probably in an entirely different form, and it is important to deal with stuff like this by pretending to be unaffected. ] (]) 11:05, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::And I hate to say it, but this is one of the great failings of Misplaced Pages. Surely he should have been blocked for more than a week. Aren't blocks supposed to escalate if editors haven't learned their lessons? But I fear we have developed a culture in which personal attacks and abusive language are regarded as normal. ]] (]) 11:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::In his last block request he says " I am ordering you, whoever who blocked me, unblock or i'll find u and beat you up in front of your mother." That block was also for one week and obviously didn't do the trick. This block should be extended to a month at least, if not indefinitely. ] <font color="black"><sup>]</sup></font> 14:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::I don't care about your age and saying things like "probably I'll go into retirement" make me think you are just whining for attention(Ironically something teenagers are known for). To me you are starting to sound like a ] ] (]) 15:11, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	: The editor is nothing but a bully, pure and simple. The concept of escalating blocks means the block ''must'' be in line with the escalation process, as this editor clearly doesn't get that their online abuse towards others is not acceptable on the project <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 14:11, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Indef Block''' - a week is not enough and now we have testimony that uncivil behavior chases editors away. I would also support a '''ban'''- ]] 14:15, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	**Absolutely - since when do we go easy on such people? ] (]) 14:19, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Barring an ''extremely'' sincere and profuse apology, yea, this user has to be shown the block door. ] (]) 14:25, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I agree. Should be indeffed, not here to build an encyclopaedia and incapable of getting along with others. ] ] 14:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Blocked Indef. I don't get why everybody is pussyfooting around here, had I seen that unblock request above I would have indeffed then, that attack is inexcuseable (although I would say the age of the person being attacked, or the attacker for that matter, is irelevant.)--] ] 14:41, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	If we care about an editors age (I could not possibly care less personally), we need to treat it like we would any other fact here on Misplaced Pages, we would need proof. Otherwise every time someone gets their feeling hurt or wants to win an argument they could just say "I'm under age, you should be more harsh to this guy." ] (]) 15:05, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Good block. Jac16888 has hit the nail on the head with his reasoning. I will say that Soham's old username showed his age, but agree that it is irrelevant; what is relevant is that he is an enthusiastic young editor who I'm seen acting more maturely than people three times his age. CombatWombat, please shut up. ] ] 18:10, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	===Probable sock===
	{{archivetop|1=Indef-blocked as well due to block evasion. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:48, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	It appears that Anice has now started socking, {{user|RoshniBaby}} & ]--] ] 14:05, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I agree. is pretty incriminating. {{duck}}. - ]] 14:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::<sarcasm> But wait, it can't be the same person because their virtually identical userpages say that Roshni is from Panaji and Anice is from Kottayam </sarcasm>. I have sockblocked Roshni indef, and I suspect we will need to be on the lookout for more--] ] 14:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Talk page block request ==
	{{atop|1=OP blocked indefinitely by {{u|only}} as a case of ]. ] (]) 15:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	I request a talk page block of user ] for her several edits to my talk page. I have discussed the nature of her vandalism with her. Rather than behaving reasonably, she has actually misused the Misplaced Pages warning notices, in opposition to Misplaced Pages staff. Because Flat Out's behavior is persistent, it must be more than a "cool-down" block. ] (]) 1:06, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:] is a persistent disruptive editor, and following a block release has engaged in edit warring and trolling the talk pages of every editor that as reverted one of their edits. Goodnight. ] ] 13:11, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Yes. I ask staff to take appropriate actions against the person vandalizing my talk page. ] (]) 1:17, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*You're both edit warring, stop it. Please read ], ] and ]. ]] 13:20, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::* With respect, my reverts are for vandalism and disruptive editing. Diffs of dispruptive talk page posts include: , , , , , . ] ] 13:27, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			== Meatpuppetry/tag teaming at Conor Benn ==
	:As I have discussed the vandalism with that person Flat Out, I am not satisfied with a request for both to stop. ] (]) 1:23, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::You can both stop or you can both be blocked. Read the pages linked in my previous post. ]] 13:24, 29 December 2013 (UTC)		{{atop|1=Resolved. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{articlelinks|Conor Benn}}
	:::You will have to include the details directly. Ok. Tell me the details clearly so I can have that person blocked in line with Misplaced Pages's recommendations for blocking. ] (]) 1:26, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			], so bringing this here. ] and I engaged in an edit war at ], which began as a content dispute but is now more of conduct issue. Less than 12 hours after he was blocked (for ), ] shows up as a brand new single-purpose account to make the for the "win", whilst predictably . How is this not ]?
	::::You reverted them to excess or their user talk and they did the same on yours. Not the end of the world but very silly in appearance. Move on. I have to believe both of you have better things to do. ]] 13:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::What does "move on" mean? If you are not willing to enforce the block, I will ask a staff member other than you to enforce Misplaced Pages policy against an offensive person. ] (]) 1:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::There is no staff, but someone may come along and respond to your request for more opinion. In the meantime, if you continue to edit war I will block your account. ]] 13:33, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Yes, there is no staff. ] (]) 1:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Spelling12345, you might also want to read ]. And, please stop signing your posts with a time that doesn't match up with the Misplaced Pages system time. The time is current 13:36; please stop signing your posts as 12 hours later. ] (]) 13:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::Only, what do you mean by, also? Are you going to enforce the talk page block for me? ] (]) 1:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::No, what I mean is that in calling the attention of us to the actions of others, you're calling our attention to your own actions which are currently putting you on a path towards another block for disruption. ] (]) 13:46, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::*Only, that is a very useful, or, specific, answer. But there is no mention of assistance in your reply to me. ] (]) 1:55, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			I'd be happy to hash out the original content dispute at ] and see if anything needs tweaking at ], but not when there's obvious bad faith tag teaming going on. ] (]) 19:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Speling12345 was referred to the talk page guidelines before his/her block, but has continued with a series of nonsense posts to user and article pages.
			:It's an LTA trying to cause trouble. Blocked now.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:After I one of Speling12345's edits, he/she whether I had ever edited the ] page (huh?) and proceeded to revert my six most recent edits, including and . He/she is indeed persistently disruptive. ] 13:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? ] (]) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Inquiries regarding gender and pigmentation have now been supplemented with {{diff2|588210745|this}}. Block approaching. ] (]) 13:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::I've restored it to the pre-socking version and {{U|Daniel Case}} has semi-protected the article.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::*It would be kind of staff to ignore the intrusive and irregular reply of Kanguole, he or she was not related to Flat Out, unless he or she is a sock puppet. ] (]) 1:55, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::Appreciated. Discussion at the Project forthcoming. ] (]) 20:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	I've blocked Speling12345's account indefinitely as it is clear that he is not here to contribute and is just going to continue being disruptive/immature. ], I see you placed a warning to him as I was blocking him and that he did respond. If you feel I acted too quickly or you think he deserves a second chance, you're welcome to consider it, but I think that this is the appropriate action at this time. ] (]) 14:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I see no problems in your action, ]. I was holding off acting as it appeared I was making no headway with them in this thread. I just wanted to make sure they had every opportunity. ]] 14:05, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I think plenty of ] was given. Thanks for your efforts with him, ] (]) 14:07, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{abot}}		{{abot}}
			== Potential Block Evasion by IP 47.67.231.5 (Original IP range 47.69.0.0, first sock IP 80.187.75.118) ==
	== ] and legal threats at ] ==
	{{archivetop|1=COI accounts indef-blocked for legal threats (among other things); article semi-protected. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 01:49, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	] and the related ] have been hit recently by a spate of edits overtly connected to the teams' ownership group, Prodigal LLC: {{user2|Prodigal llc}} and {{user2|Sportsismylife87}} have been blocked already, but a new one, {{user2|Prodigal MGT}} turned up this morning making the same edits. In addition to blanking sourced content for unspecified accuracy concerns, the accounts have also been making legal threats.--] ]/] 13:28, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			An ] is behaving similary to an ] blocked by last November. The orignal block was later extended due to ].
	:Prodigal llc was already blocked for the user name. I have blocked Sportsismylife87 indefinitely for the legal threats (it had already been blocked for 31 hours for edit warring). I blocked Prodigal MGT indefinitely for the username violation (and edit warring). I've also given the page a week's worth of semi-protection to protect it from any new accounts. I think that should cover it. ] (]) 13:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			The location of these IP addresses are all quite similar, which I have attached below.
	== User:Portillo and football (soccer) ==
	{{Userlinks|Portillo}} has been systematically changing references of <nowiki>]</nowiki> to <nowiki>]</nowiki> in articles relating to the Australian game. This is a a problem for a number of reasons. Firstly when placed in prose, Australian football is ambiguous given Australian Football is the official name for ] and football is used by a number of sports in Australia. Secondly the user has no consensus for this change. There has been a long running debate at {{pagelinks|Soccer in Australia}} and {{pagelinks|Football in Australia}} which is at best deadlocked and at worst leaning in favour of soccer as the name of the game in Australia. Thirdly, <nowiki>]</nowiki> points to a redirect rather than the association football page. The user refuses to engage and continues on their way. I would like to go back and change these back but I'm not entirely sure what to change back to - I would appreciate some administrative assistance in resolving this issue. ] (]) 13:33, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Please note I am somewhat involved as I have taken part in a few RMs related to this issue. However, for what it's worth, as the relevant article about the sport in Australia is currently located at ], then it seems sensible to conclude that 'soccer' is the most appropriate term and therefore should be used. Changing it en masse to 'football' - and yes, this user is fully aware of the issues around this topic - is nothing but disruptive. And changing the target article from 'association football' to 'football (soccer)' i.e. from a direct link to a redirect is just baffling, and raises questions about this user's competency. ]] 17:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I too think competency is an issue here, or at least an unwillingness to cooperate enough to be a helpful Misplaced Pages editor. None of the hundreds of changes that have led to this report were accompanied by an Edit summary, despite requests to do so. The user has also failed to respond at all in words to requests at both the Talk pages of some of the articles, and on his own Talk page. He did respond to my comments on his Talk page, by simply deleting them. So we have a completely uncommunicative editor making mass changes against consensus, and in defiance of multiple requests to cease and desist. Because he won't communicate, we have no idea why he's doing it either. All very weird. ] (]) 22:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::It would appear the user in question has taken actions into his own hands in relation to discussions to change the usage of "soccer" to "football". On the last point made by Hack, "I would like to go back and change these back but I'm not entirely sure what to change back to", there is a strong desire to change the usage of "soccer" to an alternative, a desire which is currently applicable to the sport. Although HiLo48 has concluded that the topic of naming has been sufficiently discussed, I would disagree with him; I would request that the issue of naming be again looked at. GiantSnowman, you say you have been somewhat involved with the topic, what would you recommend? That the topic be again discussed, or that we draw the line, whip in hand?--] (]) 00:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			] (]) 22:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::You will continue to disagree with me that three failed RfCs is enough to demonstrate a pretty solid consensus for as long as you refuse to accept that consensus, which seems likely to be forever. That contribution of yours does not help resolve this present issue at all. In response to Hack's question on changing the articles back, the obvious thing to do is to simply reverse every one of Portillo's undiscussed edits. The longer term (re)naming issue is for discussion elsewhere. ] (]) 00:49, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			:EDIT: The IP is now <s>banned</s> blocked, with the original IP's <s>ban</s> block extended by another three months. ] (]) 23:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::What outcome are you seeking HiLo48? For Portillo to receive a slap on the wrist and for the ~500 edits to be reverted? What about all the other users (myself included) that fail to use "soccer"? Will we get blocked form editing for 'vandalism' or 'bad faith edits'? This must be resolved. If you look at the facts plainly and simply they show that we need a compromise that is not "soccer". The three failed RfCs did not properly acknowledged the topic and on all three accounts a rather forceful decision was made. It's no longer enough to say "in Australia, it's soccer" because for many, it simply isn't.--] (]) 03:12, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			::<small>] - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			:::Thank you for the correction on my wording. ] (]) 23:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Harassment and personal attacks ==
	::::::I simply wanted the massive number of article changes to cease. Portillo did stop around an hour after this thread began, but still hasn't communicated with anybody, so one must question his competence to edit here. If that leads to a block, so be it. We have no real idea why he was doing it, nor really why stopped. He could therefore start again at any moment. Obviously the edits must be reverted. Is there an easy way to do that? I don't know. I'll ignore the rest of your post. It's just you using yet another soapbox to push your POV against a triple consensus. Please stick to the topic. ] (]) 08:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{u|Riventree}} called another editor and myself a , said to the editor who approved the DYK, and called me an . ] (]) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	: Hack & Hilo are biased anti-football supporters of Project AFL, a project where more time is spent stopping the official name for football in Australia being used by creating false consensus based on what one city in Australia (Melbourne) prefers to use as a nickname for Australian modified Gaelic Football, and creating pointless articles that duplicate specific articles simply to give them a platform for their hatred of Football, than on the actual subject of their project (ie, the AFL). Football is the official name of the sport in Australia, is used at every level of administration, is used as the proper name for the sport in the majority of the country both in common use and in the media, while the other major sports in Australia all have their own official name, which is emphatically '''not''' football. They have Rugby League, Rugby Union, and Australian Rules. Yet Hilo belives that only Football should be forced to use an uncommon nickname while the other sports can use their own official names. Hilo has been on a crusade for years to prevent the cultural changes in Australian sport, the media and in common life using the word football being replicated on Misplaced Pages. Even on articles specifically about teams who play football in the A-League, which is the Australian football competition run by ], and that play in the Asian Football Confederation Champions League, the AFL Project continue to vandalise, disrupt and attack people who only want to use the correct, official name of the sport in their articles. Users Hack & Hilo should be banned from disrupting the football community on[REDACTED] and be told to stick to their own Australian modified Gaelic Football league articles. ] (]) 03:47, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Indef'd. Completely unacceptable behavior. ] (]/]) 23:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::As a background, {{userlinks|Macktheknifeau}} has reverted mentions of <nowiki>]</nowiki> to <nowiki>]</nowiki>, suggesting vandalism on the part of other users who happen to be members of ]. For disclosure, I'm a member of ], ] and ]. ] (]) 04:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			::I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but ''indef'' for a user who ''has'', generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked ''once''? ] (]) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. ] (]/]) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It did. And 'indefinite' is not 'infinite'; once they acknowledge their error, the block can be lifted, but not before. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Agreed. I would further posit that a user who has been around for fifteen years really ought to know not go on the attack like this. There are ways to discuss content you don't agree with, there was no need for the blown gasket here. I edit conflicted with the above I also was going to add that Indefinite does not mean infinite, they can request an unblock as soon as right now. ] ] 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. ] (]) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this: {{tq|'twas a crime of passion (politics got the better of me)- I really would hate for Misplaced Pages to get drawn into the petty politics of the USA)}}. Since when was a DYK about feminism about petty American politics? I don't usually deal with unblock requests so I'll leave this for another admin, but I don't think they entirely understand why their behaviour is considered problematic. ] ] 01:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::It looks to me like they understand ''what'' they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the ''why'' (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I tried to see if I could convince them to understand and apologize for it, and I'm confused about why a long-time editor would go off the rails about feminism or politics. It wasn't fruitful. I wish you admins good luck. ] (]) 02:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Per our own internal classification (e.g. ]/]) it is formally a ], and the article ] is in the {{tl|political ideologies}} navbox. While it might initially seem confusing that a thing called "feminism" could be a political subject, it has been one for about the last century (e.g. suffrage is a central aspect of politics, and civil rights for women in the United States were often pursued through legislation and jurisprudence). Moreover, many issues that do not directly involve the apparatus of government are often referred to as "political" if they are the center of substantial cultural discourse or disagreement. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I have heard people use the phrase "track down" in colloquial speech for decades, and in the overwhelming majority of cases (when applied to a person) it means to get in contact with, or locate:
			::::::*"The machine in booth 7 is shorting out again, I'm going to see if I can track down the repairman."
			::::::*"Someone track down the QC inspector and tell her these parts are out of spec."
			::::::*"When we get into town, we should track down a food truck."
			::::::I am not really sure why these sentences would, ''prima facie'', constitute a violent threat. Perhaps if the speaker was loading a shotgun and wearing a blood-spattered "I HATE FOOD TRUCKS!" t-shirt -- but absent that, I would assume they just wanted a sandwich. In this case, I would assume the obvious straightforward meaning of the person's sentence -- that the person responsible should be admonished, or complained to, or sanctioned. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:So okay, I looked up the hook. Apparently, it was this:
			::... that the ''']''' of stories can focus on female characters to reflect the ] perspective?
			:From time to time we do have some DYK hooks that are controversial or edgy, so I was expecting something like that, but this is not that.
			:I must confess that not only does this DYK hook not offend me, I am not even sure what part of it (the DYK hook) someone else might find offensive (the DYK hook). The best I can come up with is that bro was having a really bad day and decided to randomly flip out at the first thing that he found mildly politically annoying. This is really not great behavior, and probably it warrants some warning or admonishment or block. However, if someone has been editing for sixteen years with no problem, I feel like this is not a sign of utter incompatibility with a collaborative editing project, and I am inclined to grant the unblock request, as they have explained pretty succinctly what the problem is and I am fairly convinced they will not do it again. On this same page, a few sections up (]), it seems like we have something of a recent precedent when someone is engaging in blatant personal attacks with regard to the topic of feminism: they are handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology, refuse to do so multiple times, and are only blocked when they go too far <del>and it is unrelatedly discovered that they are a sockpuppet</del>. Moreover, we can easily find many other instances of people doing and saying far worse stuff than this, dozens of times, and then all their buddies show up to glaze them at the ANI thread and they get a strong admonishment. I do think it's bad to flip out and call people idiots, but I don't think they need to be forever removed from the project. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 10:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::As a compromise between zero and infinity, reduced to two weeks. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 11:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] He very clearly did not explain or show why what he did was wrong, nor did he give an apology (which was halfhearted ay best) until prompted three times. ] (]/]) 13:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::TTYDDoopliss was blocked indefinitely for trolling by Canterbury Tail before being found put as a sock by spicy. ] (]) 11:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Amended, thanks. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{ping|JPxG}} Did you discuss this with the original blocking admin beforehand? And I agree with voorts that they do not completely understand what they did was wrong. I don't think it's appropriate to change the blocking time without a consensus at this point. ] ] 13:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No, he did not, and I agree that this unblock should not have happened. This attempt to downplay "editor X should be tracked down" by comparing it to tracking down spare parts is frankly bizarre. You shouldn't be unblocking people if you don't understand why saying that (even if not serious) can be extremely scary to that editor, who now might need to worry about a sociopath from the internet trying to hurt them. ] (]/]) 14:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Also RE the TTYD block JPxG should know that "what about X" isn't really a good argument on wiki. ] (]/]) 14:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::If you think I am lying (?) about this phrase being used in normal contexts, I will look it up in the dictionary. Here is what says:
			:::::{{tq|to search for someone or something, often when it is difficult to find that person or thing:}}
			:::::{{tq|''I’m trying to track down one of my old classmates from college.''}}
			:::: says:
			:::::{{tq|Follow successfully, locate, as in ''I've been trying to track down that book but haven't had any luck''. This term alludes to the literal use of track , “follow the footsteps of.” }}
			:::: says:
			:::::{{tq|If you track down someone or something, you find them, or find information about them, after a difficult or long search.}}
			:::::{{tq|''She had spent years trying to track down her parents.''}}
			:::::{{tq|''I'll go and have a quick word, then we'll track down Mr Derringer.''}}
			:::::{{tq|''The last time I had flown with him into the Sahara to track down hijacked weapons.''}}
			:::::{{tq|''There had been some spectacular busts in recent history, but even the FBI could not work fast enough to track down these people.''}}
			::::Do you think that "trying to track down her parents" implies that the person in the example sentence is a "sociopath" who is "trying to hurt them"? I agree that this was a very dumb choice of words, due to the potential for being misinterpreted, as can be seen above. Indeed, one of the examples (the last given) does imply hostility. I would not say this. I do not think that all of these dictionaries are engaged in a "frankly bizarre attempt to downplay" the phrase, nor do I think that is a fair summary of what I did. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I'm saying that I agree that there are other ways to read tracking someone down but it still wasn't appropriate to adjust blocking time without consensus. This was more than simply calling a person an idiot. They said {{tq|Get this politically divisive ] off the damned front page}} and {{tq|And: You're an idiot for approving political flamebait for the front page.}} Their unblock rationale is not good enough, in my opinion. Just because incivility isn't enforced enough as it should be isn't a reason to just not apply it all. Indefinite does mean infinite, but the editor in question should come up with a better unblock request instead of simply waiting out the two weeks and going back to editing like nothing happened. ] ] 14:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I suppose you may be correct. Well, I am going to bed; if a bunch of people come up and say the guy is really that much of a menace that the block needs to be lengthened, I will not be around to do so. I will abide my general practice on administrative actions, which is that if someone is so convinced of my idiocy they feel the need to undo it, then sure, I guess. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I don't think you're lying, just a bit naïve. If someone says {{tq|"Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page! And then track down the editor who put it there."}} on the internet to a stranger, the common sense interpretation is that it is a threat of violence. Your examples of other uses of the wording are all well and good when discussing in-person, normal interactions. But the pseudonymity of social media emboldens the craven. Threats of violence come easier to the keyboard fingers when the perpetrator is safely out of reach. ] (]) 14:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Well, when confronted, he said that it was not meant to suggest anything be done to the person: {{tq|I mentioned no one by name,and suggested no action. Therefore neither puposefully OR blantantly nor would that constitute harrassment.}} This seems pretty straightforward to me, although I get that people want the guy gone, so do what you want. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			==== Proposal: commute block to topic ban ====
	::: I can confirm that the above is a true representation of the case. User Hack and Hilo should have received a topic ban well and truly by now based on the simple fact that they refuse to accept the weight of evidence regarding the ongoing shift away from soccer and towards football in Australia. I as well as many other editors have tried to establish this with supporting evidence, while Hilo in particular continues to ignore ] while instead promoting a POV argument that does not reflect the evidence based naming shift that has occurred in Australia. --] (]) 04:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			Self-explanatory, I think. Riventree's outburst, and the follow up discussion on their talk page, show that they hold views incompatible with neutral editing about this topic. Furthermore there clearly was not consensus to unblock (the blocking administrator ]) and JPxG's ] action should not stand, but a ] isn't going to help anyone. A topic ban from AP2, gender-related controversies, and/or feminism as a broad topic, would serve to prevent future disruption in these sensitive topics; meanwhile Riventree can appeal the sanction later once they've taken time to reflect on their behaviour here.
	::::yes the name has been shifted from Soccer to Football by the sports governing body, the term Football is ambigious and will remain so currently the use of football if assigned to any sport would be Australian Rules as that clearly meets the requirements of ] for the term Football... but that isnt total relevant here the issue is Portillo actions clearly they are pushing a disambiguation term that isnt acceptable to 90% of all editors involved in the subject matter and using an automated to achieve 3-4 edits per minute, noting that the user isnt on the list authorised for AWB. The user lack of responding to any requests I think a block would be an appropriate action at this stage. ]] 07:56, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' as proposer; interested in further comments on the scope of a topic ban. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 15:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Lengthen the block if you want. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 15:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			* They've made a total of 135 edits since the beginning of 2022, 17 of which have been in the last 24 hours. I'm not sure how much a topic ban really matters. Never the less, I'd support a topic ban as a bare minimum, especially considering their follow up edits to ] ({{diff2|1270933193|1}}, {{diff2|1270933653|2}}. ] (]) 18:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I don't think a topic ban is needed. This editor has never edited in that area before and I presume will not after this debacle. I would like the indef to be reimposed until we actually get a sufficient unblock request. ] (]/]) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Considering this is such an old account and the bad edits are all recent, is it possible we're dealing with a compromised account situation? ] ] 19:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Problematic edits in the AMPOL area and with other users aren't recent. Never say never, but judging from some of their older edits:
			*:::*: unsourced switching of the language from "break free" to "resisted arrest" in the ]. (Followup conversation at Eeng's talkage, wher they justified the change as original research ; note that at the time, the BLP policy still applied to Brooks so accusing him of a crime without a source is a major no-no)
			*:::* Removed the fact that the counterfeit bill Floyd was accused of having was a $20 bill with the edit summary "Exclude trivia" in ].
			*:::*: Changed "it is widely believed that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" "it feared that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" with the edit summary "Forgive me, I abhor emotion-laden politics, but this is actually relevant here" - note how it is very similar to the language and tone they used at DYK yesterday
			*:::*] shows the same pattern of coming in very strong with personal attacks and aspersions, then backing down and apologizing a while later.
			*:::**Similarly on other talk pages {{tq|Did you just revert it because you hate change, or was there some actual reason?}}
			*:::*] and some attempting to desribe the Holocene Extinction as "theoretical", something something "the knee-jerk alarmists who were happy to simply assert human causation as the cause of an eco-disaster".
			*:::* Tried to make the article ] more neutral by adding an unsourced paragraph called "The Argument Over 'Scripting'". When questioned on the taklk, they justified this by saying {{tq|UM, no. It's just deduction. It's certainly not 'military propaganda', because the neutrality flag pointed out that the military perspective (not side, not propaganda) wasn't included at all.}} ].
			*:::Additionally, and I find this especially relevant given @]'s concerns about a double standard because they weren't "handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology", they were given a final warning for harrassment and personal attacks by Yunshui in 2020.. Follow up here:, though I obvious do not know the severity of what Riventree did, given that it apparently needed revdel. Can any admin give insight? ] (]) 20:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Whether the account is compromised or not I don't think we want to have an editor who responds this way to something as bromine as the idea of the feminist retelling editing in the various contentious topics that this overlaps. I'd want to see such a TBan encompassing at least ] broadly construed. As for AP2 I'm a bit worried of the tendency of Americans to turn every social issue into a domestic political issue, especially immediately following a governmental transition but AP2 needs fewer hot-heads, not more, so I'd be weakly supportive of that one too. ] (]) 19:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I do not think that a topic ban is the solution to this problem. The colloquial phrase "track down" can certainly be used benignly as the various quotes above show, but context is all-important. In this case, as it was actually used in the context of the rage filled rant, I read it as either a threat of outing (most likely) or a threat of violence (distinctly possible). In my opinion, this editor needs to show a deeper understanding of why what they said was intimidating and totally wrong. ] (]) 20:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			==== Proposal: Reinstate indef ====
	:::::Some sanity. Hack and I are among the editors who understand the evidence that has three times in the past couple of years led to Administrators closing RfCs in favour of the name ]. (I wonder if Orestes wants those Admins banned too?) A handful of "''soccer should be called football''" campaigners have refused to accept that ruling (three times!) and now routinely and vexatiously re-open discussions and throw abuse around. No new evidence has been presented, just the same evidence, rudely and repetitively. These editors are possibly the cause of Portillo's weird behaviour over the past couple of days, by giving him the idea that what he did would be OK. They certainly aren't accepting consensus. ] (]) 07:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			A discussion is needed on this to prevent ] from applying. Proposal is pretty much the title, reinstate indef until a more convincing unblock rationale is made.
			* '''Support''' as proposer. ] ] 19:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' with the conditional modifier that I would like to see the tban discussed in the proposal above remain in effect should they subsequently become unblocked. ] (]) 19:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' reinstating indef, '''support''' gensex/ap2 topic ban. If they can't handle that, then indef. --] 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' It shouldn't have been lifted in the first place. ] (]/]) 20:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' per {{u|Voorts}} and the long pattern of sub-optimal behavior and previous warnings as documented by {{u|GreenLipstickLesbian}}. GLL, as for the revision deleted content, in the process of mocking an editor they disagreed with, this editor linked to another website that criticized the mocked editor and outed a third editor. It was ugly in general but linking to the outing was what led to the revdel. ] (]) 21:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' given the history—particularly the outing, which correlates with the “track down” comment in the current case. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 21:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Anonymous8206 ==
	::::::: Nonsense, if we want sanity to prevail then there is a double edged sword here and it clearly shows that you have a history of not being ] to other users, myself included. Nor am I perfect, however, neither is ]. Although unlike ] I have not received a ban due to lack of ] in the past. While I agree in principle that what {{Userlinks|Portillo}} did was not the best way of managing this and I agree with any necessary ramifications, there is more to it than the above. There is a concerted agenda of ] and consensus stacking in order to promote the agenda that the sport of soccer has no place being called football, even in concern to internationally recognised Australian players such as ] and ] in order to push the POV argument that these players and other Australian based articles should refer to the sport of soccer and not football. Moreover there is also an ongoing push to neglect the recent history of the sport and the change in ] from soccer to football. Promoting the agenda that this is one sided is hardly correct by any stretch of the imagination --] (]) 09:31, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Editor using Misplaced Pages as a social network blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|Anonymous8206}}
			Disruptive (soapbox, forum) and personal attacks at ] for over a year. Examples: .
			They have been warned on their talk page multiple times for this, e.g.: ] (]) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}
			:] policy applies to every living person, even Donald Trump. I think a topic ban from all things Trump, broadly construed, is called for here. ] (]) 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	Oh corks, this again. I'll try and give some background here.
			:Another example of using talk pages as a forum on an unrelated topic: ]. <s>I think a final warning rather than a TBAN would be appropriate.</s> ] (]/]) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I've indef'd this user as not here. Per X-tools, 152/182 edits (83.5%) are in talkspace, 105 are to ] in particular, and 3 are to mainspace. Apart from the problematic Trump edits, most of this user's other edits appear to be similar forumy posts or musings on random talk pages. ] (]/]) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			==Two editors edit warring and attacking others while whitewashing fascism of an individual==
	The two most popular football codes in Australia are ] and ], with the country divided by what is know as "the ]". Less popular but with significant followings are ] and ]. Throughout the world, "]" is usually referred to as just "football", except in a few countries where not the main football code. Examples are the USA and Australia, where "Association Football" is usually called "soccer".
			{{atop|result={{NAC}} Both editors indeffed for edit warring and violating ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			As the title suggests, this includes:
			*{{userlinks|SuvGh}}
	I personally dislike the term "soccer", and try not to use it. It annoys people from countries where Association Football is the main football code (ie: almost everywhere). To me its ] is suggestive of a distinction between "rugger" (the game played by toffs) and "soccer" (the game played by commoners).
			::Making personal attacks such as "Enough of explaining r@cist Brits what to do", "you're probably an ignorant British man", and has tried to remove relevant content about 4 times now.
			*{{userlinks|Camarada internacionalista}}
	In Australia there has been a recent push to establish "football" as having the primary meaning "Association Football". Some examples:
			::Has tried to remove the reliably sourced content 3 times, and used rude editor summaries like "disgusting argument". Has no activity on talk page or anywhere else to address his edits. See ].
	* ] was re-named ] in 2005. (The modern predecessor organizations all had the word "Soccer" in their names)
	* The ]'s website's has these navigation links:
	<span style="background:silver">News Home • Sport Home • Just In • Cricket • Football • Rugby Union • Rugby League • AFL • More </span>
			Both of them were sufficiently warned. ] (]) 02:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	'''But'''. It hasn't really caught on. Maybe in a decade or so, who knows? For now, and like it or not, in Australia "Association Football" is ] as "soccer".
			:Blocked SuvGh for 24 hours for personal attacks in edit summaries and violating 3RR in spirit if not in letter (slightly over 24 hours for four reverts but blatant edit-warring). Camarada internatcionalista hasn't breached 3RR but is edit-warring, I'll let another admin decide if they need a block as they aren't ''currently'' editing it appears. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That talk page section they made should have been removed for being a ] attempt to disparage sources on grounds of national origin. ] (]) 03:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Camarada internacionalista has made 2 more reverts now. ] (]) 05:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			I have blocked both editors indefinitely. ] <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 05:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== 2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 - personal attacks ==
	As for this being a "Melbourne conspiracy", I've lived half my life above the "Barassi line" (if you count time overseas). I love the fact the ] is played as a summer sport (so as not to be in competition with the Australian Rules and Rugby League) and I can listen to one of my favourite football codes on the radio during the Cricket season.
			{{user|2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64}} I saw an IP making an ] on one user (telling them to resign for being "worthless"), and ]. I think that the /64 edits from a few days ago on the Denali situation are enough to say that they're the same user on the IP, given the political nature. I'm almost certain they're abusing a larger range than this, as zooming out to the /42 shows more political badgering. A previous /64 in that range was blocked as well for similar reasons. ] (]) 04:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	One may as well try and rename "]" to "Football mom" or "]" to "Raw Like ]".
			:I blocked. ♫ ] (<small>]</small>) 04:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Just for the one IP, though - the range is unblocked, looks like. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks. I was sleeping, but good to see action being taken. :) ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 13:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Incivility and edit-warring ==
	Pete AU aka --] (]) 09:39, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{atop|After being explained by Wiznut at 1.00am UTC today about how even discussing through edit summaries while reverting in good faith is edit warring, Thelittlefaerie has opened a discussion on the article talk and stopped edit warring. Additionally, they are now aware that making personal attacks is prohibited and have issued an apology to editors they attacked while in a heated argument. As a talk discussion is now open for content issues, and this user now seems aware about how we resolve disputes here on Misplaced Pages, I am closing this section with no prejudice to it being re-opened should subpar behaviour recur. I think a little ] is justified here as they are a new editor, who now knows about the dispute resolution processes and is now engaging collaboratively. ] <sup>]]</sup> 06:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			This is concerning user ] (] and ]). A new user, who initially made several good faith mistakes related to providing sources and not using original research. However, he also decided that the Afghanistan population at ] needed to be correct. A history of the edit war, which involved Thelittlefaerie vs three other editors (including me):
			Users involved:
	:Unfortunately soccer mom is an anachronism like the US english spelling that gives it away. You are also right, I like many others including yourself try to avoid using the word soccer in conversation unless necessary. As the FFA said when they rebranded the sport, cited in context, it's not supposed to catch on over night. On the issue broadly however, I look at it from an academic perspective and while the word soccer may be a common name, the cut and dry perspective is that it is no longer the correct name. We have to look at this as to whether we want Misplaced Pages to represent the currently accepted official name, correctly as it is. Or whether we want to use a term that for all intents and purposes has been scrubbed out. I have suggested a few compromises Association football (soccer) and its variants in the past with a redirect to soccer. I have no agenda as Hilo48 would suggest other than to represent this particular article as it should be rather than via a term that has been put aside officially. --] (]) 09:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::As you have been told numerous times, the official name isn't always the most appropriate name per ] and ]. Football is ambiguous in the Australian context, therefore a commonly known alternative is required. It's not a difficult concept. ] (]) 10:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{Userlinks|Thelittlefaerie}}
	::: Of course this is redundant when there are 3 other "football" codes articles that use the term football and yet the one sport that actually uses the name football proper in this country has no entitlement to it. It's this kind of illogical, irrational behaviour that leads to the reaction I don't agree with by Portillo. I may not be able to agree with it but I can rationalise with why they reacted in such a manner --] (]) 10:17, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{Userlinks|Wizmut}}
	{{od}} As I have said above, the ''current community consensus'' - whether you agree or not - is that the sport of association football on Australia should be known on Misplaced Pages as 'soccer' - it really is that simple. If/when that changes (although looking at the recent RFCs, some of which I participated in, such a change is unlikely to happen anytime soon) then we can change the terminology. But for now, 'soccer' should be used. ]] 11:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	* Just coming back to the changes by Portillo, I was disappointed that the editor ignored attempts to discuss the issue. However, I don't feel that a block is in order - it is done, and unless Portillo starts up again, a block now would be punitive, although I'd be willing to consider one again if the issue starts up again. I'm inclined, though, to revert the changes, unless there is some opposition. I don't necessarily like the prior state, but given the intensity of the naming dispute, we're not going to get consensus to use a single term in the immediate future unless we do something extreme. Thus it seems that the best option is to return things to how they were, and then to discuss whether or not a single term has current consensus. - ] (]) 12:02, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::There were a number of variants used including <nowiki>], ], ], ]</nowiki>. I would suggest there be some sort of uniform usage such as <nowiki>]</nowiki>. ] (]) 12:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Based on the results of the last RfC, which is the nearest thing we have to a current consensus, I'd agree with you. But as this is likely to be disputed, my thought was that it might be best to just revert now, leave the articles as inconsistent, and then try to work out what term to use. - ] (]) 13:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::: That consensus is invalid, falsely declared by a biased group of people who aren't working in the best interests of Misplaced Pages, but instead are working for the best interests of a single sport played in a major capacity in only one city of one state of one single country. The various sports all have their own specific official titles used on Misplaced Pages. ], ], ], ]. Misplaced Pages has an official policy of referring to Football as ], most often shown as ]. Yet Project AFL continue to push for just ''one'' of these sports to be denied the use of the official name of the sport OR what the worldwide consensus on[REDACTED] is on naming the same sport. The AFL project continue to create a false consensus that somehow it is 'confusing' if ] is used alongside the official names for other sports ], ], ] & ]. Their claim comes down to their belief that people from one city in Australia (Melbourne) should be coddled because they are too stupid to understand the clear and obvious differences between ], ], ], ] & ]. ] (]) 14:21, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::<s>Portillo blocked for 48 hours. Aside from the disruption detailed here, he simultaneously (1) didn't respond to any of the allegations made here, and (2) just kept on going with the link changes. ], I'm guessing that the ] links were to facilitate quicker work, since you can simply type <nowiki>]</nowiki> and get a link displaying as "football". ] (]) 13:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)</s>
	:::::I've just unblocked. I failed to check the contribution history — he "ignored" this ANI thread because his last edit was some ten hours before this thread was filed. The editing is still highly problematic, and I would suggest that someone else reimpose a block simply because enough disruption has been demonstrated here. However, I can't allow my own block to stand when it was based on a pretty blatant misunderstanding. ] (]) 13:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	Portillo's actions, though overly bold, are symptomatic of the poisonous atmosphere surrounding this matter. "Soccer" is definitely the term in common parlance Australia-wide, but we can't use anecdotes to support our articles, and when I see the major media outlets calling it "Football", the names of the various organising bodies using "Football" rather than "Soccer", I think that if we need reliable sources, they mostly fall on the Football side of the line. Substitution of wikipolicy with personal attacks is no answer. This whole matter is a running sore, an embarrassment to us all. --] (]) 19:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{Userlinks|MIHAIL}}
	Responding to Bilby's post at 13:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC) - I support such an approach. Portillo seems to have stopped his misbehaviour, so that half of the problem is fixed for the moment. The other half is deciding what we do about all the changes he made. Given that they were done without discussion or agreement with anyone else, the logical thing to do right now is just reverse his actions. The debate over what the name should be long term can continue elsewhere (I somehow suspect it will), but we cannot wait for resolution of that discussion before we sort out this mess. So, can Portillo's edits be reversed in any automated way? If not, I'm happy to play some part in putting things back in order. ] (]) 03:15, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{Userlinks|Magnolia677}}
	:I have consistently reminded users Hack and particularly ]. That we CANNOT use anecdotes as evidence under ]. All of this has fallen on deaf ears. I have consistently ALSO reminded user ] about ] with regards to his claims. There seems to be an ongoing INTERNAL reference to OR concept of research on the ] and its effects on soccer (football) which has no direct reference to soccer (football) ITSELF. This is nothing more than consistent OR and internal self referencing which is used for meat puppetry and consensus stacking. I have consistently reminded ] of this and have been treated with contempt which goes against ]. The constant provocation has at times led me to react improperly, however I digress, if anything ] consistent lack of civility should be the straw that breaks the camels back here rather than my reaction to an editor who does not understand the concept of ] . The ongoing claim about the Barassi line and its relevance to soccer (football) cannot stand on its own under ] as original research by which a consensus IS being stacked. The ] and failure to verify broad statements in discussion is an ongoing issue which cannot continue. Any further claims about the Barassi line regarding soccer (football) MUST be verified.--] (]) 08:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			Dates:
	::Please take these off-topic matters elsewhere. ] (]) 08:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			20 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie changes the figure without a source, which is reverted by me. For this article, unsourced changes happen regularly, so I did not take the effort to give Thelittlefaire much explanation.
	::: No, they're not off topic, the reasoning it has gotten this far is extremely similar to the reasoning I continue to have civility related issues with yourself. Furthermore, your consistent statement that the matters at hand RELATING to why this outcome has occurred are "off topic" according to yourself and yourself only, are a blatant violation of ]. The matters I am talking about here are directly related to why this event has occurred and WHY they have blown out of proportion. Your use of the passive aggressive line of reasoning, most recently in ] with claims of myself being "off topic" where you have directly referenced me are direct signposts to this kind of irrational, illogical, passive aggressive behaviour. The fact that you continue to deny the fact that the current issues I'm raising are meaningful and pertinently on topic only continue to highlight your problematic nature as an editor. I have previously asked you to simply clarify your position, I have also asked as with ] as to why you brought me into this discussion with much the same result. I have had discussions previously with yourself where I have been responded to with nothing more than "you're talking crap." No this kind of continued activity is exactly why these incidents have been elevated to this level. --] (]) 09:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			21 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie tries again, this time using a source, but an unreliable one.
	::::Wrong place. Not helping here at all. ] (]) 23:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
			22 Dec 2024 : I revert, mentioning the selection criteria for this article's sources. Thelittlefaerie reverts, and also reverts an unrelated change. I leave it, and instead start a topic on the ].
	To bring this to some sort of conclusion... ] has made no edits at all on Misplaced Pages since this thread began, so no more damage has been done, and ] has reverted all (I think) of Portillo's questionable changes. All we have left is the mystery that Portillo has not communicated at all with anybody on Misplaced Pages since the dramas began. Presumably he has at least read what has been written on his Talk page, and perhaps here. I think we can all move on. ] (]) 06:02, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Looks like ] is still going - there are more to be reverted. ] (]) 06:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::This is about more than Portillo's edits. This discussion and the long acrimonious saga on ] is disruptive and an illustration of what Misplaced Pages is not about. It's just a name, but goodness me, what a lot of egotism is invested in it! --] (]) 06:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::I'm not sure who you're replying to but I would suggest that commenting in this thread is not really in the spirit of your ] with ]. ] (]) 07:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::I should be done before too long - there have been subsequent edits, so I'm being cautious rather than automatically undoing each edit. - ] (]) 07:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
			26 Dec 2024 : User ] (] and ]) changes the figure back to an official source. (yes that government does use google drive links)
	== Please block ‎Mumbojumbo1000 ==
			3 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie changes it back to his version, and in the edit summary he uses the phrase ''"This is your final straw."''
	{{user|‎Mumbojumbo1000}} is a new account that is now edit warring on {{article|Doctor (Doctor Who)}}, even promts me to state my case on the talk page, where he waists no time '''''' my comments on said talkpage. Plain case of abuse I think. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] (]) — </span> 13:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	: They already reverted their removal from the talkpage themself. So, discuss <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 14:13, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I see no need for action at this time; he did revert at the talk page, but then reverted it back in 2 minutes' time. If he continues to edit war, take it to ]. ] (]) 17:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			7 Jan 2025 : MIHAIL changes it back. His edit summary in full: ''"why insist with UN or copies of UN when you have official data ?... i've seen Thelittlefaerie vandalize certain pages... the official matters, not fanaticism"''. In a vain attempt to help matters, I add a footnote to the Afghanistan entry detailing three different estimates.
	== Frivolous warnings/harrassment on ] and ] by ] (with talk page comment altering) ==
			16 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie again, this time including in his edit summary ''"And now you are acting like a complete fool. I am DONE WITH THIS. You are just a terrible person."'' and also ''"Either stop or I'll keep making edits."'' This edit was particularly troublesome, not only for the incivility, but because he reverted over a dozen unrelated edits. This was reverted by ].
	This user has repeatedly been harassing me and Sni on our talk pages:
	, , , ,
	,
			17 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie says he ''"could not reach out to you Magnolia677"'' (I can see no such attempt) and reverts again. This again reverts over a dozen unrelated changes, so I do the revert this time, and also try to warn Thelittlefaerie on the talk page and on his user page.
	After warnings for his edits were issued:
	-- me, informing him about posting on sni's talk page
	-- same
			22 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie comes back and reverts, without affecting other entries and without incivility. After this, he finally posts on the talk page, with the argument: ''"I am putting the right source and this is the right version. Please do not change."''
	he struck out said warnings, which I before posting . Apparently, ] so I posted and informed him that deleting comments is fine, but altering the meaning isn't. and . ] <small>''(])''</small> 16:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			I would like help in responding to this user, who has exhausted my patience.
	*Please let me point out the report I announced to do on December 26th, 2013: ]. I felt the need to do so since this ''Frivolous warnings/harrassment'' is something I feel done to all users who have a different opinion than ] and ], especially in this single case which is the only reason for this dispute ] and ] are not willing to settle (see ]). This ''Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents'' seems to only be a result of me announcing my report.
	*] and ] kept deleting all warnings directed to them on their Talk pages, so please be sure you check their User Talk page history and their behavior towards all users in the dispute case (see ]).
	*Please make sure to look at the history of all pages since ] and ] like to alter history to make it look better at first sight. Those who investigate are able to see the truth. Thank you!
	--] (]) 18:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	*For additional proof for ] & ] behavior see: ]. --] (]) 18:42, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			] (]) 04:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	I locked both pages involved in the content dispute. I think that you all need to stop templating each other. TALK. Go to each other's pages and write productive messages. Do not just slap templates over each other's talk pages. We are a project based on collaboration and conversation, not WARN WARN WARN WARN. All three of you are now banned from placing warnings on each other's talk pages. The only thing you can place on there is conversations. I'll let others weigh in with more ideas, but you need to stop warning each other and think that's going to solve the issues. ] (]) 19:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			:Magnolia's user talk page is extended confirmed protected, due to ]-related issues, so their story of trying to reach out to her but failing does check out. Both their behaviour and edit summaries are completely unacceptable, however. ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	I've blocked ONITOPIA for one week for disruptive editing, including persistent aggression, personal attacks, and sock puppetry. Although a bit stale, ONITOPIA, has been using IPs at the same time as he is editing to gain the upper hand in disputes on these articles: {{user|46.115.48.6}} and {{user|46.115.122.181}}. Both are German IP addresses. In addition to the fact that the two IPs "agree" with ONITOPIA, ONITOPIA is apparently German (see - note the user of the word "warnung" instead of warning). As an aside, I do not see the refactoring Raykyogrou0 refers to above; I see only striking, i.e., no changing of meaning. Finally, I express no opinion about the content dispute itself, which, of course, doesn't even belong here.--] (]) 19:45, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::It does seem like this could have gone to ]. But since it is here now, I'd like to hear from ]. They don't edit every day so I'm not sure when they might show up. I think discussion would be more effective than a block as they could end up being blocked over days when they aren't even on Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Okay, (if there is a next time) I will post a normal message instead. But doesn't "striking text constitute a change in meaning"? ] <small>''(])''</small> 20:10, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			:::Hello! '''Thelittlefaerie''' speaking. My final message be put in simple words, I necessarily don't think that the population of Afghanistan would be 35M which the google drive link states. There are many reasons supporting this. First of all, if you look at a number of sources showing the population of Afghanistan in 2006, it shows it as 31-32M. It has been 19 years since that official estimate (I believe) and I really don't think that the population of Afghanistan in the year of 2023-2025 would be 35M. Second of all, Afghanistan has one of the highest fertility rates in the world right now, which in response to the following reverts, do not relate or make sense. Thirdly and lastly, I have visited Afghanistan myself and is a full blooded Afghan and I can assure you there are way more than 35M people This leads me to believe that the USCB or UN estimates are more thoughtful. Thank you. ] (]) 05:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The user is entitled to remove the warning. Striking it seems to be more "honest" than removal. They're saying they disagree with it but leaving it in place for others to see without checking the history.--] (]) 20:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::Hello, Thelittlefaerie! Thank you for raising these points. ANI is, however, for conduct issues, not content issues - we don't assess whether what you were trying to do is valid but analyse your behaviour including comments like "terrible person" and "complete fool". It is good to see that your more recent commons are becoming more civil and engaging with other editors in a collaborative manner, like and which afterwards you started a discussion on the article talk after an editor, Wiznut, informed you of how to do this.
			::::I think if you can apologise and agree to not make ] against other editors again, and refrain from ] (which it seems you have now learned about and stopped, by starting a Talk section and not continuing to discuss in edit summaries of subsequent reverts) and engage on the talk page section you started we should all be able to move forward civilly and collaboratively here. If this doesn't reach a consensus, you can seek ].
			::::Thank you for your contributions trying to improve the article, I understand how frustrating some things can be as a newcomer and thank you for learning from your mistakes and working with us here! ] <sup>]]</sup> 05:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::In response, I apologize and agree to not make personal attacks on other people. I was frustrated, but that is not an excuse for me. Thank you for your cooperation. Also, we should update the page on Afghanistan too as that says it has 35M.
			:::::Thank you,
			:::::'''Thelittlefaerie''' ] (]) 06:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Please ignore my latest message, I meant to send this to another talk page ] (]) 06:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::(I mean the Afghanistan page updating.) ] (]) 06:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			* '''Update''': Since the closure of this thread and after TFL found the talk page section and the two-way discussion began, MIHAL (already notified of this discussion above), using an edit summary containing personal attacks (they have been advised to apologise for these) reverted the changes by thelittlefaerie (made prior to joining the talk), which thelittlefaerie then reverted. Both users have now been informed by me that there is no "right version" for the article to be on while the talk page discussion occurs and so I think everyone is ready to collaborate and come up with a compromise, now understanding how talk discussions work, so this doesn't need to be reopened. Hopefully we can all find a solution together! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 21:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Swagsgod ==
	== 108.89.165.164 Disruptive Editing ==
	{{archivetop|1=IP blocked for one month by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 07:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}		{{atop|result={{NAC}} {{u|Swagsgod}} blocked and TPA revoked. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:12, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Can ] please be swiftly blocked? They are constantly creating inappropriate pages. They are listed at AIV, but the stream of new pages continues quite rapidly. ] (]) 12:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	This IP's ] seem to be deletion of TV show articles. It has been warned various times and anon-blocked once, but still returned to its previous activities today. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:40, 29 December 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:{{nonadmin}} I agree that something should be done. Not sure exactly what, though, as IP addresses can't be indef-blocked. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:05, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I filed a report at ]. However, since the IP user only made one edit today, they will most likely not be blocked. ] (]) 19:06, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::{{nonadmin}}How did an IP get the ability to delete articles??--<span style="text-shadow:#FFD700 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em">] ]</span> 05:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::What Nbadal meant is that the IP blanked the articles, not deleted them. ;) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 07:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Wow, looks like s/he got blocked after all. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 07:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			:Looking into it. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Page locked by admins violating ] ==
			::Indeffed. Here is an example of the stuff they are spamming:
	{{archivetop|status=BOOMERANG|1=OP and sock blocked for one month. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 07:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			::*{{tq| Multimedia Group is the largest independent commercial media and entertainment company in Ghana. Founded in 1995 by a Ghanaian entrepreneur, Mr. Kwame Appiah, the company has grown from humble beginnings with 12 employees to directly employing some 700 people across its 6 radio brands, 3 online assets and Ghana's first free multi channel television brand in over 25 years of operation. The Multimedia Group has been a major spur for the growth in the advertising, creative arts and entertainment industries, particularly the gospel music industry. The Multimedia Group Go For God}}
	{{la|Skin Game (novel)}}
			::*{{tq|Certify your English anytime, anywhere Test online, no appointment needed Get results in 2 days A fraction of the cost of other tests}}
	Page was inappropriately locked by abusive admins who were involved in a content dispute and abused their power both to block participants and to fix "their" version in clear violation of WP:OWN. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::etc. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I went through their contribs and deleted the spam pages (most of which had already been tagged properly by {{ping|Fram}}). Let me know if I have missed anything. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Thanks. Their user page is extremely bizarre, but somehow gives the impression that they want to accuse the former president of Ghana of some "high criminal offense"? I guess deleting that one would be advisable (it certainly wouldn't lose anything of value). ] (]) 12:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Gone. —] (]) 12:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::What? You didn't believe that the user behind gibberish such as {{tq|Ordinary BBC at a temperature of unknown figures higher than the melting point of gallium, and 29" as you see Visualize Sunday,29Th October, 2025 Alarm 4:48pm UTC... from a Primark Bank Account which values an unregistered license sports cars in different variables used in Analysis}} was qualified to "Certify your English anytime"? ] (]) 12:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::They keep going on their talk page now, maybe yank TPA? ] (]) 13:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== IP Editor(s) continuously changing flags without source ==
	Blocks should not be punitive
	See also: Misplaced Pages:Sanctions against editors are not punishment
	Policy shortcuts:
	WP:BLOCK#NOTPUNITIVE
	WP:NOPUNISH
	Blocks should not be used:
	in retaliation against users;
	to disparage other users;
	as punishment against users;
	or where there is no current conduct issue of concern.
			The following IP Editor(s) have been making continuous changes to the flags on the Islamic State of Iraq page without any sources to backup their claims, when the changes are reverted, they just go back and revert the revert and still provide no source, thus causing what I believe to be an unnecessary disruption.
	THEY VIOLATED ALL OF THIS. Huon and Ronhjones. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			], ], ] and ] ] (]) 14:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:You're conflating several things. It was determined in ] that the page would be a redirect. If you wanted to turn it back into a page on the book, you should've contacted the closing user: {{user|Richard-of-Earth}} or gone to ].--v/r - ]] 19:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Comments like suggest if a block wasn't deserved before, perhaps it's deserved now. But anyway suggest a block was deserved before, and except for the last one, that's just going by the edit summaries! With that sort of behaviour, don't be surprised if people can't be bothered checking if you have any legitimate concern. ] (]) 19:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I've blocked the IP for a month for disruption. Seems like a very long pattern with this user. My block is in no way a comment on the locking of the page, though. If others still want to discuss whether the protection by the other admins was appropriate there, have at it. ] (]) 19:54, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			== 142.190.62.131 ==
	:::] semi-protected this page over a week ago, to end an admittedly small-scale edit war and restore the outcome of ] . There might be an argument for lifting the semi-protection, but there was consensus at the "Articles for Deletion" page for this to be a redirect as an article on an unreleased book was premature. Rather than posting here can I suggest if you think there's sufficient secondary sources to justify an article on this book, you raise a discussion at ] and see if other editors agree. If there's broad agreement, you'll be in a better position to overturn the decision at the "Articles for Deletion" page. Alternatively you can wait for the book to be released and then write the article. ] (]) 20:06, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::{{ec}}I've added a link to ] at ]. It's only semi-protected - I note someone tried to change it to an article six days ago, and also get reverted (and not by me or ]). ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 20:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			Long-term abuse possible proxy vandal operating out of Alabama, vandalism-only account. Almost all edits to their talk page before the three-year-block are warnings or include Huggle tags(see tak page hist). The reason I'm reporting this user on ANI instead of AVI, is because of the user continuing to vandalize Misplaced Pages after blocks that sometimes took years to expire, one time even two years, which might fall under chronic intractable behavioral problems. This user is currently blocked for 3 years after I already reported them at AVI, but will likely continue to vandalize Misplaced Pages again after the block. This user has been vandalizing Misplaced Pages since 2020. The IP is from Alabama and belongs to a company named "Southern Light, LLC". I don't know if the user is actually operating out of Alabama, or if they are using a proxy. I've seen multiple IPs from the "142" range that are vandalizing Misplaced Pages or contributing unconstructively, although I don't think they have much to do with this user. Their edits to the page "Athenian democracy" didn't get reverted for over two years. Three of their edits got deleted, including their first edit. ] (]) 15:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	Ronhjones violated ] by semiprotecting the page in response to an edit war when the policy states that full protection should be used (although IAR might apply), and possibly violated ]. Good block though. ] (]) 20:17, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
			: IP addresses generally do not correlate to a person. In most cases, they are randomly assigned to a customer on that ], then cycle around to another random customer. If there's a long history of petty vandalism, it could potentially be a school, library, public transportation, or some other shared IP with lots of users. Every so often, I think, "I should write an intro to IP addresses", but the best I've come up with yet is ]. And while there are peer-to-peer proxies and VPNs all over the place, there's generally little reason for normal users get worried about them. ] (]) 16:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Nothing wrong with ] if used correctly - the edit war was down to an IP on a dynamic address - thus obvious choice is a semi- protect (yes - block the IP, and 10 minutes later he will be back!). As for involved, I can't even remember why I went to the page in the first place - it not a subject of mine - The only thing that would have taken me there would be a report at AIV or my talk page or OTRS - and I can't see any obvious link there. I must have read the page for a while as I used Twinkle to add some tags - Twinkle then added them '''after''' ] had reverted back to a redirect (sadly, pages don't update on your PC while your read them!), so I had to self revert - hence the strange editing at 22:11 on the 19th. C'ést la vie ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 00:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			== IP range edit warring on variety of Canadian politics articles ==
	::I have not used admin tools on ] or regarding 98.199.208.235. That said, 98.199.208.235 is completely incapable of civil discourse in the face of disagreement, as shown by Nil Einne above. On the issue, 98.199.208.235 failed to provide or point out any significant coverage in third-party sources - unsurprising for a book that hasn't been published yet. Given the AfD (and the insults), this was not merely a content dispute but disruptive editing on 98.199.208.235's part. ] (]) 00:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I found the link - User:98.199.208.235 called for help with 5 helpme templates on his talk page - I saw that on the Admin Dashboard and my edit at 22:21, 19 December 2013‎ killed the helpme with tlx. So in effect he shot himself in the foot. ''']'''<sup>]</sup> 00:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	God I just read all that crap and these are two of the worst lying admins i've ever seen. there are plenty of sources just from google searching alone here's a link: https://www.google.com/search?q=skin+game+dresden+files
	it's covered at aint it cool news, sffworld, sarah's reviews, has amazon and barnes and noble listings for preorder, arched doorway has covereage and so does tor.com
			An IP range user ({{vandal|2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321}}) has been adding contentious or poorly sourced material to a variety of articles related to Canadian politics (including ]s). I haven't been able to warn them as the IP changes frequently but did let them know why I reverted their additions. They've also been causing problems in other articles with unreliable sources or poor information .
	i was going to try to fix this myself but i found out clicking through that this is locked up and that is ridiculous that these two can hold it hostage like that <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:30, 30 December 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			#
	i have tryed to put it in your stupid deletion review thing as the talk page says why does it not show up there?????? this site is shit!!!!!!
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			The user does not appear to be interested in building an encyclopedia productively. ] (]) 17:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			Tried notifying them for what that's worth. ] (]) 17:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:It's not for everyone. This site, that is. Maybe you can relax a bit and learn how to navigate it. If you can't, you can't. ] ] 04:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			* '''Could I please get some help here?''' IP has continued warring and reverting other users all day and spamming talk pages with irrelevant URLs. Edit warring examples: . Throwing a bunch of irrelevant URLs at talk pages: . Also appears that they're using {{IP user|2605:8D80:662:E1A9:50D1:410C:7C35:3C07}}
	:I have blocked this IP as a pretty obvious sock of ]. ] (]) 04:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			::I've checkuser blocked the /64 range as this is {{confirmed}} block evasion. The individual behind the IP has at least one account that is indef blocked, and the range itself has been for disruption.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 22:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			::: Thanks very much, ]. And as well? ] <small><sup>]]</sup></small> 22:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:There was a substantiative change on Dec 19, the author announced publication date of March 27 . This seems to have been generally missed in the discussions. The book series are bestsellers and upcoming titles with a publication date meet the book notability guideline (until Dec 19 it would not have). I am unwilling to csll BITE but some AGF and research would have helped. I am un-redirecting, per the book notability guideline and newly established publication date. ] (]) 16:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::Thanks {{U|Paul Erik}}, I got that /64 as well.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 22:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Thank you! ] (]) 23:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Abusive user ==
	== Continued deletion of complaints about biased editing abuses ==
			{{atop|1=Valid vandalism revert of an edit that clearly looked like vandalism. That Shaggydan did not mean to vandalize is good, but it does not change the fact that any reasonable editor would have taken the edit as vandalism; editors are not expected to read minds. Shaggydan is advised that they have full responsibility for all edits made by their account, including those made by code they choose to run on their machine. I suggest they find something better to do than argue about this. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 17:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Moved from the ]. Courtesy link: {{user|Opolito}}, filed by {{user|Shaggydan}}, moved by ] (]) 17:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			User Opolito is flagging users, including me, for vandalism when there is no vandalism. Who is able to restrict his account and remove his warnings and how do I bring this to their attention? ] (]) 15:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	I strongly object to the removal of my complaints about abusive biased editing practices which I placed on the talk page of the article that the editor in question edits abusively most frequently, to serve as a warning to other editors and, I hoped, to request administrator action against the abuses: , , . I ask that ]'s attempt to censor my complaints and warnings be reverted, and that ] be appropriately sanctioned for the clear abuses documented in the section which Cadiomals thinks is okay to delete.
	I would also like some guidance about how to report such abuses in the future, please. ] (]) 07:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)		:This is a matter for the ''']'''. Be sure to read the rules there before posting your situation. ] (]) 15:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@]. User:Opolito has flagged you for vandalism for of yours. After he flagged you for vandalism on your talk page, you called him a swear word and then he flagged you for personal attack. And, it seems like the warnings he gives to other Users seem genuine. ] (]|]) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:See? Was it so hard posting your grievances here rather than on the Talk page of an article, where it is inappropriate and irrelevant? The first and foremost rule from ] is that article Talk pages exist for the sole purpose of discussing direct changes/improvements to the articles. Kudos for finding your way. ] (]) 07:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			:{{ping|Shaggydan}} - Let me caution you before bringing it to the notice board, your uncivil behavior such as will very likely also be scrutinized. Furthermore by looking at , I would suggest that it is very possible you will be the one facing sanctions. ]&thinsp;] 15:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{ping|Shaggydan}} Do you have a browser extension which automatically changes "Trump" to "Drumpf"? It may not have been your intention to make this change in edits but it looks like vandalism. ] (]) 16:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] Thank you for being the first person to review my concern. As I mention on my Talk page, you are correct. As I mention there, I removed an extraneous word from early in the article. The only use of the word "Trump" occurs in a few titles in the reference section. I would have thought Misplaced Pages would not allow extensions to make edits. I was mistaken in my understanding of the security of the site's code. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. Opolito has acted in bad faith in this case and multiple others. Do you know how to invoke some supervision on his account? ] (]) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::You caused damage to the encyclopedia with that dumb browser extension, then blew up with ''actual'' personal attacks when someone came to the obvious conclusion that this constituted intentional vandalism. Get rid of the extension and stop trying to get others sanctioned for a situation of your making. Manufactured outrage is not a valid currency here. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 17:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{tq|Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism.}} You seriously don't understand how someone could reasonably see changing Trump's name to Drumpf could look like vandalism? ] (]) 17:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:User Departure- moved this topic to this page and it appears to be the appropriate forum for my concern. I will add further detail to support my initial statement.
			:I recently made a minor edit to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1270798753&markasread=333745816&markasreadwiki=enwiki&oldid=prev&title=Character.ai. A sentence early in the article read, "Many ]s are be based on fictional media sources". I deleted the word "be" and explained my edit in the comments. There were 3 uses of the word "Trump" in titles in the reference section. Nine years ago TV show Last Week Tonight put out a Chrome extension that changes that surname to its original European spelling of "Drumpf". Unbeknownst to me the extension changed the three instances of "Trump" to "Drumpf" in citations of a page about a website that had nothing to do with politics or individuals with that name.
			:Despite not changing any names in the article (only the reference titles) and making a constructive change to the article which was explained, Opolito assumed bad faith and slapped a vandalism warning on me. There was no discussion with me. A user of 1 year failed to follow the rules on reporting vandalism. It is my understanding this subjects me to a possible ban should he do this again. I am requesting any notation of vandalism be removed from my account.
			:https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. I brought this up in the talk section of my page. He responded it was my responsibility to make perfect edits and claimed I was complaining "the dog ate my homework". He write on my Talk page, "Your edit does not fall under "good faith" and was clearly vandalism. Your very poor excuses aren't convincing anyone." His response illustrates his obliviousness to what constitutes bad faith.
			:He then left a warning about attacking other editors claiming I may be blocked from editing because he did not like my response to his false claim of vandalism in my own talk page. I have been a small editor for decades. I don't know how to make claims against others to manage their accounts, but he seems to have done that twice to my account. I am requesting any damage he did to my account be undone.
			:I am not the only user to have this problem. User NoahBWill, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/User:NoahBWill2002, who 12 days ago started on his talk page, "Opolito, my friend, this is Noah B. Will; Why do you have to accuse me of vandalism? I've only been just trying to help out, that's all."
			:Twenty two days ago a user wrote on his Talk page, "Ciarán Hinds is a Northern Irish actor. The infobox clearly states that he was born in Northern Ireland. Do not accuse people making factual changes to a dictionary of being 'not constructive' again." Opolito's response shows he neither understands that Northern Ireland, where Hinds was born, is not part of Ireland AND he continues to falsely charge users with malpractice even when he himself is wrong saying, "being born in Northern Ireland is not the same thing as being Northern Irish. The sources that describe his nationality at all describe him as "Irish". Misplaced Pages article reflect what the sources say. Changing an article to reflect your opinion instead of what the sources say is not allowed. Please do not continue to do so."
			:29 days ago user Wilvis1 added an appropriate fact to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Crisfield,_Maryland. He supported the fact with a link to a local business making the claim. Opolito accused Wilvis1 of posting spam. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Crisfield,_Maryland&action=history. It clearly was not spam.
			:On December 5, Opolito threatened another user. That user responded, "You were also clearly threatening me of a block warning when I clearly did nothing wrong. I ask you kindly to please stop threatening me with your block notification messages on my talk page. You keep making up stuff and said just because I removed it, I didn’t like it, that is NOT were I’m coming from, I explained it to you three times in my edit summaries and yet you refuse to listen. Please chill with your edits and just listen for a moment before this gets out of hand. 2.56.173.95 (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)"
			:These examples are just from users who have mentioned recent issues on his Talk page. His edit history confirms a pattern of abuse. A quick look shows on January 20 on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/David_Lynch he threatened user Vinnylospo with bring blocked from editing for adding "unsourced or poorly sources material" calling it a "final warning". Vinnylospo had added the page to the Category for January 2025 California Wildfires. The Hollywood Reporter, as referenced in the article, has reported Lynch's condition severely worsened upon being forced to evacuate due to the fires just before his death. Despite this, Opolito took offense at the inclusion of the category and again threatened a user who had made a good faith edit.
			:I find this behavior deeply concerning and contrary to Misplaced Pages's mission. I just try to make the site a little better where I see errors or things that need cleaning up from time to time. I do not pretend to be versed in all the mechanisms in place for one user to harm another. I know enough that vandalism procedures were not correctly followed by Opolito in my case and others and that takes away from the site's mission. I hope this is in the right place and that something can be done to prevent this from continuing to occur. ] (]) 17:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User using multiple non-account IPs to mass-remove information ==
	Use user talk pages and, in extreme cases, noticeboards next time. ] (]) 09:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|93.204.189.212}}
	*Overall, what I'm seeing from EllenCT looks far more like tattletaling in order to 'win' a dispute than a sincere and well-founded attempt to help an editor with their behaviour. I'm not 100% sure that the removed section strictly matches the rather narrow criteria by which one can remove talk-page comments, and ] the section might have been a better choice, but it's at best borderline and Cadiomals' action seems to have been a good-faith attempt to stop a dispute or at least point it to a more appropriate venue. No action against Cadiomals is warranted. ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 16:05, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|2003:D3:FF39:B51E:70D0:BF68:E7ED:B8DA}}
			*{{userlinks|2003:D3:FF39:B598:98F3:BF2A:47F0:FB06}}
			Those three accounts all appear to be the same person, who is doing mass removal of information with minimal to no notes. I have reverted some of their edits on ] (because they removed information that I added and sourced myself), but user . After quickly going through their other edits, it doesn't appear they are making any constructive edits. I'd love some help dealing with this issue.--] ] 18:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	Ellen failed to even try to make a rational argument that I should be "sanctioned". Her low quality, POV pushing edits have been reverted by several different editors across multiple articles, not just me (e.g. ,, ). In this example: , she was reverted after trying to covertly slip in highly contentious economic/taxation material already under discussion (and ultimately rejected by strong consensus) with a totally misleading edit summary that pretended she was simply undoing some small, recent change to a different section. It's difficult to maintain assumptions of good faith under such conditions. Editors have been extremely patient with her for a long time, but she's been a persistently disruptive influence on multiple articles and Talk Pages, and perhaps it's time to examine whether she should be sanctioned. ] (]) 17:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{uninvolvededitor}} ]... '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::While commenting on this probably won't help relations in our current discussions, I do feel Ellen has a ] editing style and I'd welcome any review or intervention that might help us become more productive. ] <sup>]</sup> <small><i>20:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)</i></small>
	::Though I will certainly not vouch for much of VictorD7's past behavior, EllenCT is being hypocritical plain and simple for reporting Victor's "biased editing abuses" when she also has quite the history of her own "biased editing abuses". I'm less familiar with her activity on other articles, but in ] she has a history of either childish attempts at circumventing discussion or being a general drag on the discussion and consensus-building process (though Victor too has a history of being confrontational and disagreeable). I think Ellen is misguided in how United States is supposed to look based on ], and often has a hard time letting things go even when consensus has repeatedly shown itself to be against her. At least she has stopped trying to insert content into the article without first consulting Talk, but she continues to be a general drag in progress there by continuing her advocacy of irrelevant content, and the recent off-topic dispute crossed the line to merit removal.
	::I don't think much more can reasonably be done except telling both of them to cool it. To prevent drawn out back-and-forth, instead of directly addressing one another, they should only seek opinions and consensus from others from now on. Otherwise, Ellen's post to this noticeboard was just a failed attempt at trying to make herself look like a victim. ] (]) 08:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Of course I reject any attempt to equate me with Ellen (how about the other people debating her, including yourself?), especially one based on no evidence. A baseless "pox on both their houses" attitude is intellectually lazy at best. All my edits and posts have been in good faith, and I've always been willing to rationally and civilly discuss any of them. ] (]) 22:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	VictorD7 is trying to include his political opinions by relying on non-peer reviewed sources, while the sources he complains about my inserting in opposition are peer reviewed and secondary. He has also been following my contributions to other articles, harassing me in an attempt to try to make that work out somehow. I have only asked that VictorD7 be encouraged to edit without conflicts, while he has asked that I be "banned from Misplaced Pages". I ask that VictorD7 be instructed to either edit based on peer reviewed sources or stop editing on the topics where we disagree. ] (]) 03:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:False on all counts. I've repeatedly bent over backwards to make good faith efforts to engage you on the issues where we've disagreed, and I'm not the one who ran to report you to admin (and falsely at that). ] (]) 22:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
			:Their edits at Gerard Butler don't look unreasonable to me, trimming information that, while sourced, is tangential at best to the subject of the article. ] (]) 23:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	* Having commented on the substantive issue at ], I would suggest that you two cool it a bit and refrain from the personal insults for a while. Also avoid trading long biting exchanges on the talkpage if you can. Maybe take it to talk to clarify the confusion or even have a phone conversation. You both seem to be capable of making rational contributions to the encyclopedia. I'll admit I lean left (and believe that reality has a left-wing bias), so I'm favorably inclined towards Ellen's position (and have seen quite a bit of good work from her) and naturally a bit suspicious of self-described conservatives. I suppose that goes both ways but the bottom line is that the US taxes as a whole are not really very progressive (due largely to the payroll taxes exemption starting around 100k and the 15% long-term capital gains / qualified dividends rate) and it is difficult to paint the picture otherwise, although this seems like a valiant attempt. ] | (] - ]) 07:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:*I'm not sure what the point of the political commentary here is, but I'll note that in the section he linked to I and another editor politely corrected II's mistakes, and today he politely conceded . That's the way discussions among editors are supposed to unfold. It's when Ellen gets involved that all too often rationality and civility go out the window. ] (]) 23:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::I don't entirely agree with this characterization. I was wrong about some federal tax numbers, but I think there is still a legitimate argument to be made about corporate ] assumptions, which are highly debatable per e.g. (2009) and (2012). It's not clear to me that either of you are really engaging that well on this point exactly either; seems to have just descended into insults. In addition, I lean towards agreeing with Ellen on the omission of the effects of state and local taxes as it seems somewhat arbitrary (and hence potentially politically-motivated) although I understand that there may be data limitations. As far as your political self-identification, it's a reasonable ]. Nobody should be using Misplaced Pages as a political platform but in my seven years floating around here I've seen more conservatives run afoul of that then the other way around. By definition, a heuristic is not perfect, but if you associate yourself with a group where the majority don't believe in anthropogenic climate change, evolution, etc then you should expect to receive additional scrutiny. The economics wikiproject is probably overrepresented with libertarians and it's a bit of a problem. Also, keep in mind that we don't always do things based on majorities around here. It's !votes, not votes. If a majority of people !vote to change ] so it says it's just a theory and the world is 13,000 years sold similar to Conservapedia, the one person dissenting (and hopefully reverting) is in the right. ] | (] - ]) 00:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
			== Does this edit summary warrant redaction per BLP ==
	== More socks from Newestcastleman ==
			{{atop
	{{archive top|It's been blocked by Georgewilliamherbert. ] (]) 12:01, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			| result = Edit summary revdel'd and {{noping2|GreatLeader1945}} blocked for one week for edit warring. ] (]/]) 23:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	Hello, could an Admin please block ].. I believe it's another sock account of , who has already had multiple accounts blocked. Thanks, ] (]) 09:48, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			}}
	{{archive bottom}}
	== request courtesy blanking of edit summary ==
	{{archivetop|1=And that is that. ] '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 20:02, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	could someone blank this edit summary . Thanks! -- ] 10:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nonadmin}} Given the female anatomy references in the edit itself as in the edit summary, revdel it all... ] (]) 11:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{done}} Revdel applied to all four edits on that user page. Since there are no useful edits at all from that mobile phone range, I have rangeblocked it for a month. ] (]) 12:19, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
			Apologies if this is the incorrect location, ] is a BLP violation and may need redacting. ] (]) 22:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Persistent incivility and personal attacks by AndyTheGrump ==
			:Per ], you should privately contact an admin for revision deletion (or OSers for oversightable material). I've deleted the edit summary. ] (]/]) 23:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archivetop|Obviously gun control's a controversial topic. So's civility. Doesn't seem much chance of reaching a consensus when the two are mixed. (signed)--] (]) 15:47, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
			::Thanks, I've made a note of that. ] (]) 23:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	] is exhibiting disruptive, persistent incivility and personal attacks at the ] article. I understand that ] is a heated subject, but there is no excuse for this editor violating ] and ] with disgusting temper tantrums and personal attacks like and . He has spent '''very''' little time actually discussing the material that is in dispute, instead choosing to attack other editors and misrepresent their motives at every turn. This editor's terrible behavior has already resulted in . This is the worst it gets on Misplaced Pages. Last, but not least, it's also worth noting that this editor (Andy) has been repeatedly blocked over the years for this same kind of behavior. ] (]) 14:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	::Just a slight correction. I have left the article in question, but am currently still in the project. Otherwise, ROG5728 is spot on.] (]) 14:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	: What is the point of raising anything from gun control at ANI? It's a heated topic, that sort of thing happens. It's more effective to ignore it than it is to fan the issue here. Since WP:CIVIL was revoked for favoured editors, this sort of attempt to use it on other editors is too partisan. It's a barely uncivil comment and took place amongst a whole bunch of tag team edit warring. CIVILity wasn't this edit's main problem.
	: I wish Andy the Grump would stick to more parliamentary language, but in a politically hot topic that's already well past the Godwins threshold, I'm not going to censure him for what he said. ] (]) 14:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Since when do we throw out WP civility policies when we happen to be on heated topics? You can only "ignore" bad behavior for so long before it becomes disruptive. Neither of those diffs could be described as "barely uncivil." ] (]) 14:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	Contentiousness of the situation is inevitable. Maybe even failing to have truly engaged discussion is (all too) common. But the extreme amount of trying to "win by nastiness" (trying to insult and villianize editors and their viewpoints and posts) as a way to "get ahead" by deprecating them, and heaping abuse on editors, deliberately misstating what other editors have said, continuous false accusations, ad hominem arguments, has gotten way out of hand. And there are editors on both sides of the issue who are willing to and keep starting civil discussions, and those discussions keep getting derailed by such nastiness. Andy and Geothean have been at the middle of it, Goethean has dialed back a bit in the last 1-2 days. . I'm not the type to seek sanctions, but twice In threads I've asked to have the situation reviewed and some '''''warnings''''' against '''''those types of behaviors''''' issued (just in general, not against any particular editor(s) would be fine), and both got closed, ....once already (and a second attempt now unsigned) by non-admin involved persons. '''''Turmoil there is inevitable, viciousness against and abuse of editors is not''''' Sincerely, <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 14:21, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			== revoke TPA for ]? ==
	To anyone seeking to close this again: Closures ought only be done by impartial persons, and such closures should be signed. The prior "closure" was improper on both grounds. Cheers. ] (]) 14:26, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			{{atop
	*''I happen to hold a first-class honours social science degree from a leading British university'' perhaps there is a larger problem here, Grump may have an unnatural opinion of his role in the project as well as a hypersensitivity to ''clueless patronising fuckwittery'' his opinion of others is not only disruptive, but could be considered hurtful to trolls, loons, and otherwise decent folk, ''patronising little troll...craziest of crazies...if you had an ounce of human decency. '' far too long has this behavior been excused by the editors acknowledgement he is a grump. i suggest it is time to cheer-up and play nice you super-shinny bag of horse happiness. ] (]) 14:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			| result = Done. ] (]/]) 00:03, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
	:* There is something inherently not right in using a civility enforcement to advantage in a content dispute. Were Discretionary Sanctions available I would topic ban the lot of you and get truly uninvolved editors to sort it out. But this has to stop. Gamaliel has been warning and cajoling and trouting to no avail. I strongly suggest that everyone listen to him. ] (]) 14:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
			}}
	There is something inherently not right about attacking and insulting other editors and discouraging them from participating on Misplaced Pages. Are you seriously suggesting we should ignore an editor's longstanding bad behavior just because he's involved in a content dispute? As I pointed out earlier, with this editor. ] (]) 14:53, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::*What is particularly conspicuous is that the main article, ], has seen relatively little editing in the same period, with two significant excisions but nothing like the kind of death struggle seen here. ] (]) 15:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*While Andy is admittedly getting uselessly angry, and might do well to leave the page alone for awhile, ROG5728, his comments need to be read in the context of others on the page. The whole article, and its talkpage, is a battleground. Compare ]'s comment on the page today: "I've only been following what passes for debate here for a single evening, but I'm already disgusted and I want to trout the lot of you, on both sides of this." Hear, hear. As for your claim that Anythingyouwant is leaving the project, you obviously misunderstood his comment about leaving the ''page'' and taking it off his watchlist. (I thought it was very clear, and really, I would have thought it implied that he wouldn't follow the quarrel to ANI either, but whatever.)
	:Agree with GWH that dragging an opponent to ANI looks a lot like a battleground move on your part, ROG5728. What looks still worse is blatantly canvassing the people who agree with you. As far as I can see from your contributions, you've notified a bunch of people who agree with you, and nobody else, about this ANI "discussion". Beware of ]. ] &#124; ] 14:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC).
	::::Don't worry Bishonen, I merely wanted to correct a misstatement about me.] (]) 15:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	I've been watching the discussion there at ] for several months, and I haven't noticed any of the other editors stooping to this level of incivility (or even close to it). If you have diffs to the contrary, please provide them. Again, are you seriously suggesting we should ignore an editor's longstanding bad behavior just because he's involved in a content dispute? with this editor. ] (]) 15:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	: That doesn't validate dragging a user to ANI in order to remove him from a content dispute and then blatantly violating ] to try to skew the argument in your favour. ] (]) 15:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	Personal attacks don't validate "dragging" a user to ANI? Why not? ] (]) 15:11, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:"This is the worst it gets on Misplaced Pages."....not even close. There is something inherently not right about people with strong opinions on gun control editing articles about gun control. They should do the right thing and just walk away. Of course that will never happen, but why not ? It's easy. There are over 4 million other articles to edit. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 15:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	: You appear not to have addressed the canvassing concerns, which was part of the same sentence. ] (]) 15:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::re ROG - I can see a difference in rudeness levels between the two factions. And am not afraid of san tioning people for sufficiently bad personal attacks. But to directly answer the question - Yes, I will ignore history rather than decide a content dispute by sanctioning only one side as is asked for here. If I were to intervene I would full protect the article talk page for the duration of any other intervention, to prevent that. We 'usually do not' full protect talk pages, but protection policy does not forbid it, and this situation is not 'usual'. ] (])
	:::side note - I see a valid civility complaint here. The CANVASS and BOOMERANG comments seem not helpful. But again, using civility to 'win' a content dispute is not going to happen from my mop. ] (]) 15:14, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	Regarding the "content dispute", please note that the article is already protected from editing and has been for days, so it's not like we stand to "win an edit war" by getting this editor temporarily blocked or warned for his bad behavior. I was not necessarily asking for a long term block, either; but this kind of bad behavior warrants a stern warning at the very least. ] (]) 15:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:With regard to stern warnings, ROG5728: I think I must have spoken too softly above, since you have ignored my most important point. How about this: ] is very disruptive. If you do something like that again, you risk being blocked. I hope that's clearer. I've put a warning on your page too, to make sure. ] &#124; ] 15:21, 30 December 2013 (UTC).
	I was not aware of a '''duty''' to notify ALL editors about an ANI discussion. I notified the editor that was the subject of the ANI (Andy), and I notified the editors that have suffered from his incivility firsthand (some of whom have been the subject of his personal attacks). In the future I will try to notify everyone. With that said, why do you (Bishonen) have such a keen interest in my behavior, as opposed to Andy's flagrant violations of civility and WP:NPA? It doesn't seem right. ] (]) 15:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Again - don't try and use this complaint or noticeboard to win a content dispute. That DOES bring BOOMERANG into plat. ] (]) 15:30, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:: You are only ''required'' to notify the subject of your complaint. However, if you are going to draw attention of others to the ANI section, you need to follow ]. In this case, that means that you should have notified everyone involved in the talk page dispute, or none of them. ] (]) 15:33, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	* Any how, since Andy has been warned by GWH for his outburst, and ROG5728 has been warned against using ANI as a content dispute battleground and canvassing, I think this can probably be closed. ] (]) 15:35, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	In that case, my mistake; and I will notify all editors in future cases. I guess I will also take the other admin's advice and do my best to just ignore incivility and personal attacks by other editors, especially if they happen in the midst of content disputes. ] (]) 15:40, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I would prefer your lesson be that "please block both the editors on the other side of this content dispute because they are being unspeakably rude" is a lot more complicated than "unspeakably rude". There are a bunch of issues in play, and multiple Misplaced Pages core calues in conglict. CIVIL does not trump NPOV, which would be affected by strong one sided sanctions without regard for the context. If you keep that in mind future incidents can be handled in a more straightforwards manner. ] (])
	{{archivebottom}}
			I guess I shouldn't since it is me that they are deliberately pestering with nuisance pings after being asked repeatedly to stop. I know I could have muted them, and I now have, but I shouldn't have had to, they should just stop acting so obnoxious. ] ] 23:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Resolve licence dispute for ] ==
			{{abot}}
	{{archivetop|1=License issue corrected on Commons. In the future, discussing it ] is probably better than bringing it here. ''']<font color="darkgreen">]</font>''' 17:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	Hello, I'm trying to resolve a licensing conflict in ] The problem seems to stem from the assertion that the SVG is based on a public domain PNG file ] which has since been deleted. Would it be possible to find out what the licence was before it was deleted? The deletion reason only says "csd i1" and I can't find that code in ] Thanks. ] (]) 14:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	<code>
	Summary
	This is an diagram I drew in paint. It shows how an electric field interact with an atom under the classical dielectric model.
	] 11:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
	Licensing
	{{:PD-self}}
	</code>
	Hope that helps, ] (]) 15:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Based on CSD I1 at the time is the same as CSD#F1 now, that the file is elsewhere. --] (]) 15:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	: The destination file on the Commons has now been changed to the same license as the source file on en.wiki. I also added the original upload log and deleted the local file as F8. -- ] (]) 15:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Banned from aspartame controversy ==
	{{archive top|1=There is a clear consensus against lifting this topic ban. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	I would like to have the ban against me for posting at aspartame controversy lifted? I find it difficult to be a member of this community when the ban is in force.
	] (]) 17:39, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:# please link to the discussion where the ban was enacted
	:# please show proof of your ''successful'' editing outside of that topic since it was enacted
	:# please provide a description of how things will be different should you be allowed back to editing that topic <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 17:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	* . ] (]) 17:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*The user was already . However, since then he or she has made only two article-space edits: . IMHO this is not enough to establish a track record of successful editing outside the topic area. —] (]) 17:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Yes, you need to understand as has been explained to you before that simply staying away without actually editing other articles is not likely to get your topic ban revoked. The simple fact is, your history means we can't trust you to edit in the area of dispute. If you show an ability to edit constructively elsewhere, we hope that what you learnt from that editing combined with the time away will mean we can trust you, but the time away is not likely to be enough. If you disagree with your topic ban so strongly that don't wish to contribute here while your have it in place or whatever, that's fully your choice edit: ''but it does mean you may never effectively never be able to return''. <s>But</s>''And'' do understand if you can't edit elsewhere because you feel you must be able to in the topic where edit: ''we feel'' you have problems <s>in</s>, that simply reenforces the view we can't trust you to edit there. And continuing to ask hurts the chances you will be allowed back in to that area. ] (]) 18:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' lifting topic ban, absolutely no evidence that the editor's understanding of Misplaced Pages's content rules has advanced significantly since the ANI discussion that resulted in the topic ban, plus "I find it difficult to be a member of this community when the ban is in force." indicates their intention to return immediately to the problematic topic area. <code>]]</code> 18:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Arydberg's also indicates that they're more interested in posting on talk pages than they are in improving the encyclopedia. ] (]) 19:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	**Just want to mark my comment above as a formal '''Oppose'''. ] (]) 01:14, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*]
	:]
	:Repeating the advice Arydberg recieved ten months ago, "Please please '''please''' listen to us again. You need to '''edit constructively''' in areas '''other''' than aspartame before you ask for your topic ban has '''ANY''' chance of being revoked. ''If'' you continue trying to get it removed without showing us you can be constructive (for ''at least'' 6 months or so before reapplying), you run a strong risk of being not only banned, but ''']''' from editing ''anything'' at all." --] (]) 19:33, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' – you've made to article space since your ban. You should make some more edits to article space before you can reapply. ] (]) 23:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' per own statement, "''I find it difficult to be a member of this community when the ban is in force''" which sounds like a warning that lifting the topic ban will lead to a return to the same topics and tactics that necessitated the ban in the first place. Come on, a wiki with 4.5 ''million'' articles on myriad topics, there has to be something else you can work on. ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 04:23, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose.''' Zad and Starblind took the words right out of my mouth. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 07:08, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' Although time formally has no meaning on Misplaced Pages, it's my firm belief that if you come to ask a favour on ANI, you'd better have the time to respond to concerns and questions when raised within a reasonable period of time. It's now been 24hrs with no response to my original 3 questions (yes, I already knew the answer to the first one). The other two are '''vital requirements for any request for a lessening of a topic ban''', and the editor was '''required''' to include them as information in their request. Of course, I already knew the answer to question 2 because there are essentially zero contributions to this project. Topic bans are not "time served" - they are to give the editor time/space to re-prove themselves as potentially beneficial editors to this project. They are usually given ''in lieu of an indefinite block'' in situations where the community sees some possible degree of hope. Without any proof, and without any way forward, there's absolutely no possible way to lessen the restrictions. If you cannot "enjoy" Misplaced Pages without contributing to a specific topic, then perhaps Misplaced Pages is not for you - we have far too many fringe-pushing SPA's already, tyvm <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 18:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming‎ ==
	{{archive top|result=The article has been protected without the offending material, it is now up to the editors involved to prove/disprove any BLP issues. The article is also ]. Given this, any block would not be preventative at this point and this discussion will merely attract those on "the other side" of the AFD/talk page dispute, as it has already. Any other admin is welcome to assist with DS's request for a block, but I do not see the point at this time. ] (]) 19:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	This article was brought up on the fringe theories board, so I looked it over. It is one huge BLP vio, none of the BLPs in that article have stated they "oppose the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming‎". This is a BLP vio in that a few editors have engaged in OR to decide among themselves who is "opposed to the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming‎" which is OR and also a BLP vio, I have remove the vios yet they are continually restored in violation of BLP and BURDEN. So either block me for being really wrong on BLP or protect the article at version. ] (]) 19:18, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{uninvolvededitor}} I'll admit that I don't know much about this subject, but given the discussion on the (as well as reading the article), it appears that the only person that disagrees about all this is you. And I doubt any admin is going to protect your preferred version of the article. BTW, weren't you already about ? You really need to put a halt on the ] spree. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 19:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' the OP's request for a block, for tendentious editing.- ]] 19:29, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::The article is now protected, but gonna ask for the hell of it, Erpert, what forum shopping? And be aware, usually when I come here it is me who gets in the shite. ] (]) 19:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' OP's block request. Tendentious editing, forum shopping, edit warring. OP's claims of BLP violation do not appear to be valid. The four BLP's I've checked have all been accurate. ] (]) 19:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	=== Continued disruption ===
	Sorry Black Kite, but I disagree with closing the section. Darkness is refusing to collaborate on the talk page besides repeating vague one sentence claims that the article violates blp. No other editor has so far agreed with his assessment, and not a single example of a problem has so far been produced, despite repeated requests. I believe the article should be unprotected so the content can be reintroduced (per consensus), and if Darkness persists in blanking sourced content without providing a specific rationale, his request for a block should be granted. &nbsp; &mdash; ]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">&middot; ]]</span> 21:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Excuse me? away quite amicably. ] (]) 21:33, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::If you think this is just a little chat and not a discussion trying to resolve YOUR PROBLEM that YOU CREATED, then the article needs to be revised and the discussion needs to be ended so we can stop wasting our time. ]]] 21:51, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Weird, I figured potential BLP violations were everyones problem, and that such issues were resolved by discussion, not just ending it cos you happen to like the article as it was? But as you said, I have my head up my arse so what would I know? ] (]) 21:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::The only person that has an issue with this article because of BLP violations is you right now. ]]] 21:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Weird, cos I see two editors over there who say much what I have. ] (]) 22:05, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Until recently nobody had a problem except you, huh weird ya I'm thinking the same thing. ]]] 22:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Do you never tire of being ? ] (]) 22:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::I just tire of you ]]] 22:19, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::I also saw the notice on FTN. I've had the page on watch for a long time, since it was a question of whether we should have long quotes by the name of each individual. There clearly is a case to be answered about BLP, even if you think Darkness isn't pursuing it in the right way. ] (]) 22:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::::Do you agree with ? ] (]) 23:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::::If you believe something to be a BLP violation you have to delete it, no? It's then the responsibility of the people who want the material included to put a rationale. ] (]) 23:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::::Lindzen was on that list, yet he has written "For the most part I do not disagree with the consensus, but I am disturbed by the absence of quantitative considerations" ''Global Warming: Looking Beyond Kyoto'' pp 21-22 ] (]) 23:26, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	#{{diff2|588403988|18:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}} "Reverted edits by ] (]): Rv per ]. And do not misuse rollback again bud. (])"
	#{{diff2|588405463|18:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}} "Reverted edits by ] (]): Again. this content is a BLP vio, so it stays out. BLP is not negotiable for gods sake. (])"
	#{{diff2|588406103|18:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}} "Reverted 1 edit by ] (]): Everything is BLP, rv per BLP. (])"
	#{{diff2|588408344|19:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}} "Reverted 1 edit by ] (]): Read BLP, and stop now. (])"
	#{{diff2|588408797|19:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)}} "Reverted 1 edit by ] (]): BLP is not negotiable. (])"
	Diffs of edit warring / 3RR warning: Continued reverts? ] (]) 23:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	===Requesting attention from another admin===
	As {{u|Mann jess}} notes above, {{u|Black Kite}}'s actions in protecting an edit warrior's gutted article, while in good faith, are wrong headed and quite damaging.
	#{{u|Darkness Shines}}, as the diffs indicate above, engaged in a disruptive mass deletion of content after nominating this article for deletion
	#Darkness Shines followed the deletion by a prolonged edit war, well past 3RR while several other editors urged him to take his content dispute to the talk page.
	#Darkness Shines was reported here and on the ], but those incidents were closed and his actions shielded and reinforced by Black Kite -- who didn't so much as leave a message on Darkness Shines's talk page about the incident. (Although the latter just removes any warnings on his talk pages anyway).
	#For hours, Darkness Shines did nothing other than remove content or justify the removal using absolute, non-negotiable ], instructing others to read policies ad nauseum while refusing to engage in meaningful discussion. Although his technique entirely rests on wikilawyering and brute force, he nonetheless demonstrates either poor understanding of the policies or otherwise applies bad faith interpretations of said policies (for example "You cannot categorize a person as something which they themselves have explicitly stated they are not").
	#Black Kite's actions are particularly damaging because now, unless someone finds Black Kite's disclaimer at the top of the lengthy AfD discussion, the article people will be weighing in on (the version of the article that was protected) is a disgrace. What ''are'' visible are the BLP accusations without the consensus-based equilibrium version of the article there for people to ''judge for themselves.''
	#*''A user who sees the page is protected in the current state will understand the protection to mean there is, in fact, something egregious that had to be removed -- that administrator attention was needed because it was so bad.''
	#*In an attempt to err on the side of BLP caution, Black Kite has disregarded consensus built on extensive discussion and even an ARBCOM ruling, and bypassed any attempts at discussion (even saying that it is ''because'' he protected it that he will not weigh in) and thus rewarded this disruptive edit warrior
	#Darkness Shines has made clear that he will not compromise and vows to do ] over this, using nothing other than absolute terms (e.g. "this will never go in the article.") His one-man defense of his actions on the article talk page has since exploded into redundant and non-productive calls for people to read policy with scant (none at all until recently) explanation of why the policy even applies, general incivility, and personal attacks.
	Darkness Shines has been successful in beginning a productive discussion on the AfD page. While I don't think it'll result in deletion, it would be nice if the discussion led to page improvements -- maybe even adding/removing content with the productive suggestions and criticisms of ''other'' users. But the page cannot be improved currently! While the AfD process runs its course, the page needs to be '''restored''' and '''unprotected.''' Also, because the methods employed by Darkness Shines have been entirely disruptive so far -- but shielded on the Edit Warring noticeboard and elsewhere by Black Kite -- Darkness Shines should be '''prevented from editing the page''' at least until the AfD is done. To be clear, though, I'm not saying Black Kite acted in bad faith -- only that I think he made a wrong and damaging decision and has not shown any indication that he's interested to fix it. --&mdash; <tt>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></tt> |&nbsp; 23:50, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Out of curiosity, before the next bottle of wine kicks in, do you actually hope to get from this? Other than to show a wilful disregard for BLP on the talk page? ] (]) 23:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I second this. Please remove the protection on this article and restore the status quo content. A single editor should not be allowed to stonewall everyone else using irrational arguments and insults. At this point, the page protection is completely unwarranted. If Darkness Shines reverts even once, he should be blocked to prevent further disruption.- ]] 00:03, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Apparently no admin is willing to touch this subject and just reward Darkness for his blatant and disruptive edits with no real justification of his actions. This is getting a bit ridiculous as many users have tried to compromise with this user but has no indication of doing so. Something needs to be done instead of just sitting and watching and several users have disagreed with Black Kites decision and asked for the page to be reverted to its original state before the AfD nomination but nobody seems to respond. ]]] 04:15, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*All anyone needs do is look We have a BLP who in his own words, said "I do not disagree with the consencus" but his own words are not good enough, op eds ad blog posts seems better that this mans own fucking words, ] (]) 00:57, 1 January 2014 (U
	::He absolutely '''did not''' say that, and this has already been explained to you. Directly misquoting him to misrepresent his position and the problem is insanely disruptive. Lindzen, in fact, said the ''precise opposite'' of what you just "quoted" him saying. I'm blown away by how disruptive you're willing to be to "win". The fact is that consensus opposes your repeated claim that this is a BLP concern, and we should listen to that community consensus until you're able to change it. &nbsp; &mdash; ]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">&middot; ]]</span> 01:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Repeated insertion of contentious BLP material on a talk page ==
	{{archivetop|1=Blocked for 24 hours by ]. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 06:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	{{User|Roccodrift}} has repeatedly inserted contentious unsourced material about ] in violation of ] , and despite three warnings: . Considering how often he quotes ] in content disputes, I would certainly expect him to adhere to it.- ]] 23:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:FWIW I agreed, blatant violation despite three warnings, blocked 24 hours. ] (]) 23:48, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	::This has got to be one of the dumbest things to get blocked for that I have seen in some time. Mr. X read-added actual contentious BLP material into the Robertson article and then complains about the discussion? ] (]) 02:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::...which came in . And then got edit warred to death. If you want to try and slice that knot, be my guest... ] (]) 05:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::And so it begins. ] (]) 03:02, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== ] ==
	{{User|Joefromrandb}}
	Accusations that IPs are socks of a banned user. When I have reverted this on the basis that there is no evidence that the IP is a sock there have been accusation of meatpuppetry.
	# ] Accuses {{User|213.49.104.71}} of being "Robert", presumably referring to User Ryoung122. Note that this IP is located in Brussels. I also note that the IP provides no edit summary and that Robert Young is extremely unlikely to have edited any longevity related articles without commenting (usually to promote his own epertise).
	# ]. and accuses {{User|81.11.203.160}} and {{User|213.49.104.90}} of being socks. These IPs are also from Brussels. Claims to have restored to "last clean version". A blanket reversion of (mostly) valid changes.
	# ]. Another claim to restoration of "last clean version". Seems to have followed {{User|83.134.143.22}} (presumably the same person as other IPs as the location is Brussles) from above and blanket reverted all changes although again they appear to be valid.
	# Accusations of meatpuppetry: and . Another clear example of this user throwing around false accusations and attempting to bully other editors. Joefromrandb seems to be under the impression that I am one of the ] fan club which is so far from the truth it is actually laughable.
	<span style="background-color:orange;color:blue;">DerbyCountyinNZ</span> <sup> (] ])</sup> 23:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Perhaps I'm just slower tonight, but it took me a while to realise what's going on. DerbyCountyinNZ is saying that Joe's making baseless accusations regarding edits to the following pages. ] (]) 01:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Correct. Accusations of sock puppetry with no apparent evidence. Accusations of meat puppetry with no evidence. Sorry if that wasn't clear. <span style="background-color:orange;color:blue;">DerbyCountyinNZ</span> <sup> (] ])</sup> 03:39, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::It's amusing that Derby has reported his own edit-warring. Last time I reverted this user's errors, he got his buddy, administrator Canadian Paul to block me. Apparently he considers himself so bulletproof that he's brazen enough to make multiple baseless reverts and then report someone else. A small group of users have long asserted ownership of all longevity-related articles. It would be nice if these articles were eventually returned to the community, but it really isn't an ANi issue. ] (]) 01:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::It's been a while since I've been involved in this area, but it looks more or less the same from when I was there, so if I may quickly comment before returning to isolation mode. The IPs don't strike me as being Ryoung122, because as DerbyCountyinNZ says usually Ryoung122 hastens to point out his work in the GRG. There are plenty of other IPs who edit the topic area who likely come from the Yahoo World's Oldest People group, to which Ryoung122 is openly a contributor; one could debate whether it's a meatpuppetting issue, but my experience has been they'll come over without invitation. A lot of times their edits are less than helpful, and I frequently found myself reverting them as well. DerbyCountyinNZ and I didn't always see eye-to-eye on some of the MoS issues in that project, but he's absolutely not one of the Yahoo WOP acolytes (a look at the archives of ] should show that) and has always been willing to discuss things. Although I generally agree with the thrust of Joefromrandb's edits, I can see why his approach is somewhat off-putting. If he could write with a little more tact, I think the issues at each article could be resolved without too much difficulty. ] (]) 22:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Indefinitely-banned editor using sockpuppet currently ==
	{{archivetop|(non-admin self-close) Offending IP has been blocked by ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 16:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC)}}
	I've opened a new investigation at SPI (]) but the IP sock appears to be editing .<br>As I said on the investigation page, the IP sock passes the DUCK test by being a known prior sock and editing in the exact same manner (multiple violations of ] to the point where an annoyance becomes a major disruption). ]<sup>]</sup> 04:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== ]'s sig ==
	{{ul|Wōdenhelm}} insists on using a ] which contains 2 images (] and ]), despite the fact that I told this user that images in sigs are against policy. How should I procede? ] ] 06:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{nonadmin}} Displaying the confederate flag is a problem in itself, IMO. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 06:48, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Posted a message on his talk regarding this. <span style="text-shadow:#267 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">] <sup>(])</sup></span> 07:46, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::The rebel flag in and of itself should not be considered problematic, it is strictly the use of images in a signature that is disruptive. The solution is simple: if user does not agree to stop using the images, an indefinite block for disruption and blatant disregard for accepted standards is appropriate, though I would point out the signature page is a guideline, not a policy. This block can and should be removed contingent on the removal of images from the signature. <span style="white-space:nowrap; text-shadow:gray 5px 3px 1px;">— ] <small>(] ] ])</small></span> 08:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Why not try asking the editor politely? We've got three non-admins on his ] threatening him with blocks and accusing him of incivility. No wonder his only response has been "go away". ]<sup>]</sup> 17:31, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:: He was asked politely by an admin, and now a couple of non-admins have chipped in. Not sure how much more politely you were looking for, but the original request was just fine. I'll pretty much guarantee that his first edit after being advised of this ANI filing better be either a) here on ANI, b) on his talkpage, or c) with a newly-minted signature or else he will receive a brand-new block for New Year's! <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 17:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::With the exception of extreme block-on-sight violations, the first step I take (other than repairing the damage done, in some cases) is to talk to the user. I did it in this case before coming here, and got a "no" and a "go away". And I didn't threaten him with a block (although I'm capable of giving one) - that was other users, after he gave these answers. ] ] 21:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::In response to you both, this is the kind of politeness I would have appreciated if I was the user at the centre of the furore:<br>''"Hello Suriel1981, I'm such-and-such, an administrator on Misplaced Pages. You're not in trouble but I need to talk to you about your signature. Our ] state clearly that editors should not use images in their signatures so I'm going to have to insist you remove the flags from your signature before you continue editing. If you need help doing that or you have any question then feel free to message me back."''<br>Something along those lines. There's no way anyone could '''reasonably''' misunderstand or take offense at a friendly-but-direct approach. I only made my comment because I would have been offended if the initial message had been left on my talkpage. ]<sup>]</sup> 01:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	This is pretty much a textbook example of how not to handle this situation. Trouts to everyone involved. Since the matter has been brought here, lets let some other editors intervene and the editors involved in the original pile-on can step away to avoid escalating the situation. ] <small>(])</small> 21:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Trout yourself first then. The first request, by Od Mishehu, was perfectly fine, and included the word "please". This user also used please in their second comment. Od Mishehu has acted exactly as they should've; they remained polite throughout, and escalated it to the only possible place. Given that Od Mishehu could've legitimately blocked Wodenhelm for their disruptive sig and refusal to change it, I fail to see why they are being accused of mishandling the situation... ] ] (legitimate alternate account of ]) 21:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:*Aaaaaand here we have another example of inappropriate escalation. I thought Od Mishehu was a bit brusque myself, but that's a minor and forgivable issue, certainly, but the other editors involved in the pile-on turned up the heat too quickly. This isn't a BLP matter and there's no need for immediate action or threats of such, so let's all simmer down now. This is the sort of nonsense and chest-beating that creates stories by disgruntled editors of administrative "abuse". Policy will be upheld in the end, but how we get there is important too. ] <small>(])</small> 23:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	==Edit warrior keeping POV fork reverts ]==
	{{ul|Norden1990}} insists in reverting a redirect link instead of expanding an article that I created:
	{{userlinks|Norden1990}}
	*]
	**see here
	And also on other articles he revertes sourced text related to the war-criminal and anti-semite ].
	*]
	* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mikl%C3%B3s_Horthy&diff=588510765&oldid=588509406
	* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Miklós_Horthy&diff=588407432&oldid=588382904
	calling vandalism while he actually is deleted sourced information about this war-criminal.
	Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: ]
	With his edits (can be cataloged as anti-semite) {{ul|Norden1990}} reverts sources text about the war criminal ].
	'''And, YES, he was blocked before for edit-war''':
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Norden1990
	15:03, 14 July 2013 Bbb23 (talk | contribs) blocked Norden1990 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours (Violation of the three-revert rule: John Hunyadi)
	] (]) 13:08, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	'''Other edit-war'''
	3 times edit-war, see ]
	*1st time https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hungarian_discrimination_against_Roma&curid=16371215&action=history
	*2nd time https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hungarian_discrimination_against_Roma&diff=588521778&oldid=588520253
	] (]) 13:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	'''Also using proxy IPs ; 195.89.201.254'''
	https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/195.89.201.254
	] (]) 13:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Let me see if I understand what is going on:
	:*This is a section of the article on ''Harghita County'' that covers demographics - ].
	:*This is a stand-alone article ].
	:These contain the same statistical information, though ] has more textual information and a graph showing population growth over time. In other words ] is better.
	:'''2QW4''' has three times tried removing cited information on the 2002 census from ]. This did not find favour with other users who reverted this deletion. The editors who reverted '''2QW4''' were ], '''Norden1990''', and ].
	:'''2QW4''' was the editor who created the stand-alone article on ] on 30 December 2013. This is the one that contains no information not already in ]. '''Norden1990''' has twice turned this into a redirect to ], on the grounds that it is a duplicate.
	:I think Norden is right about turning ] into a redirect. It is a POV fork created by 2QW4. It has no merit compared with the section of the original article, which contains more useful information.--] (]) 13:38, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Interesting, who are you? How come you support war-criminal and anti-semite edits?I don't think in Misplaced Pages is allowed.] (]) 13:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Dear 2QW4, who are you? You are the banned ], are not you? If this is true, ] did not and could not make any edit war with you. Furthermore, your edits were not based on the sources you seemingly used. Finally, accusing other editors of Anti-Semitism without any basis is uncivil. Please refrain from it. ] (]) 13:45, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I think[REDACTED] has enough resources to know I am not. I have seen how you cover and delete sourced text about anti-semitism of Horty. ] (]) 13:47, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Me? When? I would be surprised if I have ever edited this article, because the 20th century is not a favorite topic of mine. You really seem to like accusing other editors without any basis. ] (]) 13:52, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Really? For you his edits on ] are OK??] (]) 13:54, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::His reverts of your edits are OK, because your edits were not based on the sources you seemingly cited. ] (]) 13:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::'''Miklós Horthy''', dear 2QW4. --] (]) 14:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::::SO, you do recognize you're edit warrior, because you got one time blocked for that...] (]) 14:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I stumbled across this report when proposing a merge of ] into ], and I am concerned that ] is likely a sock.] ] 13:50, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::I am not, but if you're so smart tell who I am.] (]) 13:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::What I know, is that you have been an editor for only 4 days and are already forum shopping- which usually means sock. Beware the ].] ] 14:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::Banned ]? ] (]) 13:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::No, I am not. ] (]) 13:57, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::::But you are, draga. I am sure. ] (]) 14:01, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::::If that's the case, 2QW4 is actually the sock of literally-banned editor {{u|Iaaasi}}. But the fact that 2QW4 only edits this topic of articles is not suspicious to me, unless there is more substantial evidence that happened that I don't know about. ] (]) 14:36, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I am not sure, that {{u|Iaaasi}} and {{u|Hortobagy}} are the same. However, I am sure that {{u|2QW4}} is identical with {{u|Hortobagy}}. Please find the reasoning below. ] (]) 15:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::'''2QW4's''' claim of "attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page" regarding ] - the only post I could find by '''2QW4''' on ] was this one, made at 13:06 31 December 2013. That was made at exactly the same time as he/she was creating his/her report to ANI. i.e. it is a sham.--] (]) 14:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	Please could people contribute the reasons why they suspect that 2QW4 is a sockpuppet to ].--] (]) 14:40, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I am not sure, that {{u|Iaaasi}} and {{u|Hortobagy}} are the same. However, I am sure that {{u|2QW4}} is identical with {{u|Hortobagy}}. Both editors are almost solely concentrate on 2 topics: (1) the existence of a Székely language separate from the Hungarian language (2) the discrimination against Romani in Hungary. Moreover, for this purpose they were/are creating separate articles without proper references. Finally, both editors obviously tend(ed) abuse reliable sources: they write/wrote sentences and add(ed) sources which do/did not substantiate their own claims. ] (]) 15:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{outdent}} {{uninvolvededitor}} FYI: 2QW4 has been indef-blocked for being a sock after all (of, interestingly, an entirely different user (])), but I didn't NAC this because the thread was originally about Norden1990 (I have no opinion on ''that''). '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 18:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	== Is it ok to call other editors a "rat", as long as it is done in Hebrew? ==
	{{user|Gilabrand}} and I edit in the same area (Israel/Palestine), and we have not always agreed on matters, to put it diplomatically. Latest about a month ago, at ].
	However, Gilabrand has always called me by my correct nick, Huldra, earlier. (See e.g. )
	This last month they have suddenly started calling me "Hulda" (like , and )
	Which, apparently means . Comments? ] (]) 16:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Well, Hulda can refer to a number of things, including an ], but I would caution Gilabrand to avoid Mickey Mouse games with an editor's name. It's not very collegial. ] (]) 17:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Agreed. This is childish, and Gilabrand should be warned that such behavior is unbecoming of Misplaced Pages editors. Hopefully that will put an end to it. –] (] · ]) 17:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Yes, he doesn't need to be calling ''any editors'' by ''any names'' other than their User Names, so this is not okay, no matter the meaning or language. ] ] 17:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	This isn't the first time that Gilabrand has engaged in playing juvenilishly with user names to wind other editors up: in the past she has used her own signature to try to get at much as NoCal100 used his username to wind up another editor. Examples of Gilabrand's signature altered to read 'Nopleazy': , , , . Instances of me asking Gilabrand to desist: , , . Examples where Gilabrand altered her signature to read 'Yespleazy' instead: , , , , , . <br>
	As mentioned in the recent concerning Gilabrand, she was the subject of an indefinite ban in the Arab-Israeli topic area, which was eventually lifted with the warning that ''Gilabrand is further reminded that any future problematic editing following the removal of editing restrictions will viewed dimly.'' The recent AE case was closed with no action taken except another warning: "''Gilabrand has been notified, warned of the heightened scrutiny and limits to how far things can go before they would become actionable, and encouraged to edit in a somewhat more neutral manner if possible''" (see also Gilabrand's : "''Gilabrand will be notified that their edits are under heightened scrutiny due to their personal opinions and editing trends on these topics, and that moderation and neutrality will be helpful to avoid further investigations as to whether their edits are becoming single purpose, soapboxing, or battleground type edits and subject to the Arbcom sanctions.''") <br>
	Given that Gilabrand has had several strong warnings about her behaviour, one given very recently, perhaps this incident deserves to be taken a bit more seriously. <br>
	<span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;←&nbsp;&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 18:48, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:This is unbelievably ridiculous. I have nothing against Huldra - we have worked on many articles together to fill in the history of villages about which little is know. "Hulda" is simply a typo. But now that she mentions it, it is actually complimentary. Hulda is the name of a Biblical prophetess. --] (]) 19:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::: Not true. Here is a couple of Gilabrands posts about me from just this year: "", and "". Please also read my entry in the last ]: it was after that that Gilabrand suddenly started "misstyping". Coincident? ] (]) 20:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::So you suddenly start repeatedly making the same typo in the name of a user you have been acquainted with for some time. Are there any other cases where you have done the same? <span style="font-family: Perpetua, serif; font-size:120%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;←&nbsp;&nbsp;]&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> 19:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Could you be more careful in the future to avoid creating even the appearance of an insult (though none may be intended)? If so, we are done here. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I will try to type more slowly... Funny how stuff can be misinterpreted.--] (]) 19:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Funny, isn't it? For example, your response when she asked you about it on your talk page: "My wife and kids had a good laugh over your detective skills. Maybe they will accept you to the FBI." That ''might'' be misinterpreted as sarcasm. Typing slowly might not be a bad idea if it helps you think about how things will be read. ] (]) 19:48, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	Can we get an agreement from both of you to only refer to the other by correct username and only with respect (even if you don't like each other)? If so, I hope we can close this. ] (]) 20:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:In view of this being a repeated pattern (compare the Nableezy-refs above), please do not close this yet. As noted: Gilabrand has posted untrue statements, IMO. And was 'Nopleazy' also a typo? And how many "warnings" does an editor receive before it has ''any'' consequences? Cheers, ] (]) 20:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Gilabrand makes here above as if she would be sorry for what she did but her initial answer on her talk page proves she is not sorry at all, at the contrary:
	::This behaviour is in total disagreement with WP:NPA and the 4st pillar of wikipedia. In more of that, there is no content dispute between Huldra and Gilanbrand. This would show that Gilabrand acted because of other reasons (my mind: because Huldra is an Arab and Gilabrand an Israeli). That is not acceptable per ]. Gilabrand's should be blocked at least 1 week for this and she should receive a warning that she would be blocked indefinetely if she does this again.
	::] (]) 23:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::I suppose you realise that you make typos too? For example you misspelled "Gilabrand" as "Gilanbrand".--] (]) 17:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*In answer to your question, no it isn't, because that is a personal attack <span style="border:1px solid;background:#800080">]]]</span> 20:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*Question - how many times in the November-December timeframe did Gilabrand type your account name in a comment or response? I see the two misspelled examples above, how many were there total and how many of those were misspelled? ] (]) 21:22, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	**To ]: AFAIK: she has only addressed me those two times this last month, misspelling my name each time. While she earlier always have spelled it correctly, (like here, back in ). Notice that her "misspelling" comes just after I have written very critically about her in the above mentioned AE. Compare it also to her spelling of Nableezy; another editor who she has disagreed with, ] (]) 23:29, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	"The Prophetess Hulda: Her Message of Hope": Perhaps it was meant as a compliment? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:::I do not know if she is sorry or not. We cannot mandate that. An agreement to call each other by proper names is all we can ask.--] (]) 15:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::Sometimes I copy and paste names instead of typing them. This reduces the chance of the kind of error that Gilabrand/Geewhiz made about Huldra - but, if the typographic error occurs once, it means that it has the potential to be repeated many times. Maybe that is what happened here.--] (]) 17:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Ok. Without telepathy we are not going to get an actual final answer here. The history of name games (3 years ago, but extensive) and repeat of the "typo" make intentional attack credible, but I have typoed enough things to know accident is possible.
	:My current opinion - Gilabrand, when I closed the AE I made heightened scrutiny clear to you. That does not mean an end to AGF or understanding sbout innocent mistakes, but it puts a hard and firm limit on the number of question marks we can accept going forwards.
	:This incident, given the repeat and meaning as misspelled and blowing off rather than apologizing when called on it, is a serious question mark. One strike for that.
	:You don't have 'three strikes and you're out". I don't want to set up a legalistic limit or let you game this. This counts. I won't act based on this one, but AGF goes away. This kind of thing happens again and you don't apologize and strike or retract, will be bad.
	:Heightened scrutiny does not mean zero tolerance for error, but it does approach zero tolerance for screwing around. Your response here was about all the slack you are going to get from me. If you goof again, make it right, and be a lot more careful. ] (]) 23:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== User:IHaveAMastersDegree ==
	In the last few days ] in many articles has changed references about climate-change "skeptics" to "those who reject the evidence", "contrarian", "anti-climate-science", "denial", etc. I left a message on IHaveAMastersDegree's talk page asking if there was any hope for retraction. He/she has ignored the message and done more edits today. Some examples:
	There are many more examples at . Reversion is justifiable in every case that I have looked at, but I will wait for advice first.
	] (]) 16:54, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	: Ironically, ] posted his concern at the moment I was composing my reply to him. I'm not sure what the customary period is to wait for a reply, but I would hope it is not less than 24 hours. I am happy to work with other editors to find a supportable solution. I can list many examples of the use of "skeptic" that are not supported by the information cited and appear to be violations of ]. I believe that my changes are improvements but am willing to revisit them on a case-by-case basis. ] (]) 17:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:: I looked at the first change listed above and I did not find the term "skeptic" used in the cited articles. It got me to thinking that ''skeptic'' is ambiguous in its meaning in these contexts. Skeptics can be irrational doubters of everything or rational individuals who doubt fringe theories (there are other meanings as well). The first change is clearer in meaning than as originally phrased with "skeptics", so while I might not agree with all the changes, I think they should be considered on a case-by-case basis. I think in the future that it would be a good idea not to be quite this bold and make one or a few changes and see how they are received before making wholesale changes. ] (]) 17:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Under the circumstances, I have issued a ARBCC notification and logged it. This may be constructive but everyone needs to know about the discretionary sanctions and scrutiny. ] (]) 21:38, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	I looked at every edit made by ] up to 20:55, 29 December 2013 and saw all but one as an improvement in clarity. He/she corrected the one problem I saw when I pointed it out. Most of the sources used to support the ambiguous-almost-to-the-point-of-meaningless term "climate change skeptic" do not in fact use the term, and IHaveAMastersDegree's edits are both more informative and more neutral - which is guaranteed to annoy warriors on both sides. --] (] · ] · ]) 22:29, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	I didn't expect that anyone would argue that it's okay to call living persons anti-science deniers etc. without backup, but an administrator has decided the edits may be constructive, so I won't revert the edits that have been done. As for my timing: I acted because more edits happened after I put out the message. Ordinarily, of course, it would be right to wait because it's reasonable to assume that the message receipient is away. ] (]) 00:56, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:''I didn't expect that anyone would argue that it's okay to call living persons anti-science deniers etc. without backup'' Except, of course, as pointed out above, the opposite is true. Misplaced Pages is supposed to reflect what the sources actually say and not the spin you wish them to say. --] | ] 03:35, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:: For the record, I didn't make any edits that referred to any living person as an "anti-science denier." Is this issue resolved? ] (]) 06:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::: I wasn't using quote marks and I was referring to later comments so it's pointless to make anything out of whether those variants of the words appeared in that order, and denies or denial or rejects-the-science or similar variants appear multiple times, see the quotes. If it's a big deal whether you used such terms near each other, you did change at least one living person from "skeptic" to "anti-climate science" and linked to "global warming denial". If you're asking whether this particular administrators-noticeboard issue is resolved, well, that was the way I understood things. ] (]) 16:22, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:: Update: I now realize that the administrator has not officially "resolved" the matter until the notice "the following discussion is closed" appears. So I'll reply to an earlier comment. It means nothing if "skeptic" does not appear in a cited source, when IHaveAMasterDegree's words also do not appear. And IHaveAMastersDegree has changed even if "skeptic" does appear in a cited source, when IHaveAMasterDegree's words do not appear. ] (]) 18:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	: I started editing again because I understood it to be resolved. I will discontinue if I'm supposed to be waiting for resolution. Where can I find guidance on what I'm supposed to do or not do? I am new at this, so apologies for not knowing where to look for this information. ] (]) 19:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::: As I and others have pointed out, the term "climate skeptic" is so ambiguous that it is essentially meaningless outside of context. Sometimes it refers to ] as defined by the traditional skeptic community, e.g. those involved in the ]. But it also serves as a euphemism for those who engage in ] or generating disinformation. Because of the overloaded nature of this expression, it seems to be best to avoid using it unless it is explicitly defined. Where it is defined in source material, I have just used that definition. Moreover, it is a label rather than a description of belief or behavior. I think it is always better to avoid labeling people, especially living persons who might change their beliefs or behavior. It seems preferable and more neutral and non-judgmental to describe what individuals have done or what they say they believe in a way that nobody disputes. Then we can avoid and not get into semantic quibbles over what "climate skeptic" really means. If there are specific instances where you feel I did not do this properly, why not just go to the associated talk pages and discuss there? ] (]) 19:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::: That's a lot of instances, and . ] (]) 00:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	: Please point to the one that you consider the best (or worst) example of inappropriate editing and let's talk about it on the associated talk page. I'm happy to work with you (or anyone else) on a case-by-case basis. ] (]) 01:33, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Edit warring by TreCoolGuy ==
	] has been frequent edit warring not just against myself, but several editors when he provides poorly sourced, unsourced content or creates premature articles with little sources for it to be sustained. He had been warned several times, but continuously chose to ignore us. I suggest an die finite block as there is no talking to him. ] 19:08, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:He is wrong in edit warring, but so are you. I count 5 reverts by you at ]. ] (]) 19:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Hi, Tre. Forgot to mention he was previously blocked before for ]. ] 19:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Hi, ]. I forgot to mention aswell that Rusted started cursing at another user which you can clearly check off his talk page because he didnt get what he wanted. He was acting like a little four old because he didnt get what he wanted. - ]
	::::Well it seems you just admitted to being the IP, so an indef block for sockpuppeting is seemingly guaranteed. And stop diverting the attention. '''You''' have been reported. Explain '''why''' you chose to start an edit war rather than start a discussion or accept the fact the article was premature. ] 19:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	I was invited here. A lot of editors have issues of TreCoolGuy on plot dumping, editing without explaining, bringing back edits that were reverted and rarely never involved in discussion and sometimes using false warnings too. Although it can be possible that editors may not be assuming good faith on a newbie who does not know the rules yet. I am not going to point fingers and let the administrators decide. See ] for further discussions regarding him. '''Note to the administror''': If you want links for edit revisions. Me and other editors could help find it for you. Also if there is any editors that have sockpuppet reviewer privileges. Some editors seem to think he may be a sockpuppet. They might need to explain why though. ]<sup>''']'''</sup> 19:38, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:It's not really a case of assuming bad faith. After awhile of being polite about his combative editing and nicely warning him, it's gets aggravating when he doesn't learn. ] 19:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::I ain't saying that you aren't assuming good faith though. I am just saying that's for the administrator to decide if his edits are that or not...or maybe he is just a newbie who doesn't get the rules yet. You are right though, we might just need to cite a guideline on him...but I will doubt that he will listen to us is the thing IMO. You really need to go here if you want ]. ]<sup>''']'''</sup> 19:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::Oh, he was blocked before for socking. And is just way too suspicious for it to not be him. ] 19:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::Why wasn't he blocked indefinitely? Anyways the editors who reviews if someone is a sockpuppet is usually always going to review at one point in that page. Also half the time the penalty is being blocked indefinitely. ]<sup>''']'''</sup> 20:07, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::::His puppets ] and ] were indef blocked and he got off easily with I think a two week block. Evidently he didn't learn his lesson there either. ] 20:30, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:*I'm sure no one is assuming bad faith - it's just ] on Misplaced Pages. Tre has been given plenty of opportunity and time to grow as an editor, but unfortunately, I dont think he's done much on his part. Various editors have tried to tell him how to improve, not to blindly incorporate rumors as fact in an article, but, still, he does it; reverting those who revert his edits. '''&#124;&#124;''' ] '''(''']''')''' '''&#124;&#124;''' 20:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::*I agree. I ain't defending him. I just ain't involved with everything going one that he has done so I SHOULDN'T JUDGE. Also it seems like he doesn't know how Misplaced Pages works. He doesn't even sign properly. The question is. Is he willing to learn...but he hasn't shown it yet. ]<sup>''']'''</sup> 20:07, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::*Thanks for fixing my comment moves etc. ]<sup>''']'''</sup> 20:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*I recently responded to , as discussed by ], ], ], and ], after observing his edit-warring at ] (); if this is any indication of a larger pattern, then that is definitely a cause for concern. I will also note that he was blocked by ] just a few months ago for sockpuppetry, which is perhaps even more concerning. ] (]) 19:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:: It was the same case that Rusted was talking about. ] - ]
	:::You sign like so: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Also he might be saying the same stuff...but he is linking what you are doing which is what was supposed to be done in the first place in a noticeboard like this. ]<sup>''']'''</sup> 20:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	'''Additional comment:'''Let me explain my "good faith" comment. Yes he is not abiding guidelines...but outside of maybe being a sockpuppet. Nothing he is doing seems to be a permanent block. He is a baby who just touched a stove in a Misplaced Pages it seems. He isn't commenting right. He acted like he hasn't seen the edit revision history. Although he seems to have admitted he knew 3RR with his first comment admitting he noticed edit revision history as a IP editor so that's strike one with his actions. He obviously needs a mother to say "no, that's hot" but at the same time if he won't listen. He will get burned. In Misplaced Pages's case. Make sure he sees that guideline first. If not. Then he ain't being ] and should be blocked. ]<sup>''']'''</sup> 20:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I am actually not TreCoolGuy, but another editor. So cool down, everyone. Somehow I was logged out while commenting, and I am not willing to disclose my identity due to privacy reasons. ] (]) 20:40, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:If that's true, I apologize. It's just odd that your last edit before today was a year ago, is all. ] 20:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Dude, I was just going to say the same thing. I assumed RAP knew what he was talking about. lol. So of course this still might mean Trecoolguy dosn't know about edit revision history. ]<sup>''']'''</sup> 21:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	==] disruptive editing.==
	Hello I would like to report that this IP user has continued to be disruptive. While reverting the IP's edits on ] here (Removing a reliable source and violating ]) and here (]) I noticed that there are already a heap of warnings on the IP's talkpage for disruptive and breaking NPOV edits. Also noteworthy is the removal of warnings placed by other editors . - ] (]) 20:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Having encountered some of the editor's contributions, it appears they are either deficient in understanding that Misplaced Pages is a community project with rules, or they are deliberately engaged in disruption. AGF led me to consider a test, for which the IP received a warning. IP , which is considered an acknowledgement of posted warnings, which included warnings for NPOV, edit tests and damaging articles.
	:User has also been engaged in the unexplained removal of sourced content, the removal of sources, and the addition of unsourced future dates, . User seems to not understand our rules against the introduction of ], for example when they submitted "Most fans wonder what would look like with her ebony-black hair down." There are also where the user submits repetitive non-neutral descriptions "the girls all strongly fall head-over-heels in love with the same guy", "... figure out how NV makes her hypnotically, irresistible ]-like perfume that spellbindingly attracts all males." This edit was reverted, but then the IP user attempted to sneak some of the content ("head-over-heels in love"), and the grandiose style of writing, back into the article . User seems to have a POV that they are pushing. ] (]) 22:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	== editor makes sweeping changes removing over 100 references without discussion then insults other editors ==
	] (a.k.a. ], ], and various IPs) has made sweeping changes to ] page including the removal over 100 verifiable references (most of which can be linked to on the internet for all to read). He did this without discussion or any attempt to gain a consensus. When he was challenged by an IP user was openly hostile using insulting language. The following comes from the talk page and is unedited.
	:WOW! This is the best AK-47 vs M16 comparison I've ever read. I can't believe I found it on Misplaced Pages. Usually, these articles are filled with nonsense such as "the AK-47 can be buried in the surf for a year, dug out, shaken off and fired without a single malfunction." Or, the "I had an M16 jam on me in Nam once and I've never trusted the gun again" stories.
	:This article accurately list the advantages and disadvantages of both systems. Such as, the AK-47's primary advantages is that they are cheap and they are everywhere. You can buy 4 or 5 brand new AK-103's from the Russians for the price of one brand new M4. While the M16 overwhelming advantage is that a soldier armed with an M16 can carry twice as much ammo as a soldier armed with an AK-47. This was so much of an advantage that the Russians developed the AK-74 to counter the M16. It also helps to explain why American units armed with M4's routinely wipeout insurgents and terrorist groups armed with AKM's.
	:I've already printed off copies of the article and I'm going to hand them out to the guys. I really like the suggestion that the "The M16s bolt carrier group is small enough that an extra group can be carried as a back-up." This is the perfect solution for being unarmed when you're cleaning and lubricating your rifle. Just switch out the bolt carrier groups and clean the dirty one. It's such a simple solution I don't know why I didn't think of it myself. --70.173.135.216 (talk) 21:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
	::What happened?!! This was the best Ak-47 vs M16 comparison I've ever read. Now, a large amount of information has been removed and what's left has been whitewashed. I recommend that it go back to the last edit as of "20:15, 13 December 2013"‎ http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16&oldid=585954678 --70.173.135.216 (talk) 17:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::That version? It was created by a psychotic imbecile (who lives with his mommy, I bet) and was full of WP:QUOTEMINING and attempted to game the system in order to represent M16 in best ways possible. It's still possible to incorporate some of his edits (the ones in which he didn't game the system) but only after inspection of sources one by one. Furthermore, he deleted tons of sourced information. Only when I took an edit break he felt safe to emerge from his hiding and vandalize the article. You might not be familiar with such tactics and the article gave a good impression. Krutoi dezigner (talk) 22:03, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
	When you look ] (a.k.a. ], ], and various IPs) edit history you will see that he routinely insults fellow editors. He routinely makes sweeping edits to various pages without attempting to gain consensus. He routinely removes information backed by verifiable English language references and replaces them with contradictory information back by unknown and unverifiable Russian language sources. He routinely demands that others accept his edits on good faith and show nothing but contempt for the work of others. He has been routinely warned and blocked for edit warring, only to return with a new user name. He cannot be reasoned with and will not stop. I recommend that the ] page be return to the last edit as of December 13, 2013 as stated above. I also recommend that the page be locked for a time. And, that ] (a.k.a. ], ], and various IPs) be blocked.--] (]) 21:01, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Why isn't there any discussion on ] about article versions? That would be the way to handle the content dispute portion of the matter...seek consensus. Protection wouldn't be warranted here. Behavior could be improved though...<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;] ] 21:29, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	I've removed that lovely comment and warned the user via ]. We'll see what happens next. ] <small>(])</small> 21:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	*And I've reverted to the version prior to the POV-pushing removals. Removing 30k of information that is mostly well-sourced, and then trying to bodge their own POV in is bang out of order; particularly with incorrect and downright false edit summaries like "restoring to stable version" - or none at all. ] ] (legitimate alternate account of ]) 21:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	How does one reason with someone who has shown this pattern of behavior? How does one try to reach a consensus with someone who refers to you as a "psychotic imbecile (who lives with his mommy, I bet)". It cannot be done. Any attempt to do so will result in an edit war. Which is nothing new to this user. No, ] (a.k.a. ], ], and various IPs)--] (]) 21:42, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I'm new to this situation so I'm not familiar with his pattern of behavior. I will see how he reacts to this current situation and escalate appropriately if his actions warrant it. We can certainly discuss a block or topic ban based on his long-term behavior, but that would require the presentation of multiple ] and we would wait to hear his response to the proposal. ] <small>(])</small> 21:47, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	Ahhh... This article (both the modified and original versions) reek of WP:SYNTH, in my professional opinion, and contain significant inaccurate information. ] (]) 22:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Look at what that POV-pusher did with the article a while ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16&diff=557106814&oldid=549569909 He simply removed information he didn't like. And yes, he is both psychotic and a borderline autistic. ] (]) 01:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Archived talk page history - read through the bottom topics where the same editor appears: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16/Archive_2 ] (]) 01:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::# Who are you referring to, the 71.22 IP editor?
	::::# The "psychotic and borderline autistic" is unacceptable to use referring to another editor on Misplaced Pages and if you do it again you will be blocked for it. You are urged to strike or remove that description.
	:::: ] (]) 02:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::These are scientific terms. ] (]) 02:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::...annnnd that's a 24 hr no personal attacks block. ] (]) 02:35, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::Yes, the IP and RAF910 is the same user. ] (]) 02:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::*Given Krutoi dezigner's unblock request, I think ] applies. ] ] (legitimate alternate account of ]) 10:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Another mass vandalism by RAF910 (reverted on the AK-47 page):
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=AK-47&diff=564650732&oldid=564583650
	RAF910 vandalism on the Fyodorov Avtomat page:
	https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Fedorov_Avtomat&diff=557891505&oldid=556868409
	As you can see the user has no problem with removing sourced information he doesn't like. ] (]) 02:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Personal attacks etc. at Talk:Lycos ==
	], ], ], ] (), et al., have contributed off-topic material to ], accusing the Lycos company and its employees of covering up a pedophilia ring and other bizarre things. Other users over the years have also used this Talk page as a place to air their complaints about Lycos (false advertising, etc.).
	Per ], I a recent contribution by Henrydconte along these lines with <nowiki>{hat}</nowiki>. In reply, Henrydconte about me (as he has done in the past). ] .
	In the interest of full disclosure: I was an employee of Lycos (working on search, not Tripod) for two years (2004-2006). I have had no affiliation with Lycos since then.
	Since I am the one being defamed, I feel it's COI for me to delete the defamatory content myself. I ask that an admin
	* delete the content on Talk:Lycos defaming Lycos and its present and former employees (including me)
	* delete irrelevant comments or hide them with <nowiki>{hat}</nowiki>
	* inform ], ], ], ] of WP policy about Talk pages
	* possibly use CheckUser to see if some or all of these accounts are socks (Added: User:Gaius Valabius has already been found to be a sock)
	* take whatever other action he/she deems necessary to prevent future disruption of this kind
	Thanks, --] (]) 21:49, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	{{FYI|See similar discussion at ].}}--<span style="text-shadow:#FFD700 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em">] ]</span> 02:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:I've hatted both discussions as off-topic, with an explanation inside. If another admin wishes to pursue other avenues, such as CheckUser, be my guest. <span style="white-space:nowrap; text-shadow:gray 5px 3px 1px;">— ] <small>(] ] ])</small></span> 04:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== ] at ] ==
	*{{pagelinks|Ariel Castro kidnappings}}
	*{{userlinks|KahnJohn27}}
	User KahnJohn72 was warned about edit warring on a different article {{diff2|588278266}} {{diff2|588279524}} some 48 hours ago.
	Previous consensus at this page has been to keep the name of the ] on ]. KahnJohn27 added it back in {{diff2|588448556}}. I removed the name citing previous consensus. KahnJohn27 then added it back in with a personal attack directed at myself {{diff2|588505464}} "''....Stop trying to make Misplaced Pages ignorant like yourself. Stop trying to impose your views.''".
	I undid the change again citing previous consensus requesting he take it to talk and not engage in personal attacks, then KahnJohn27 put the name back in {{diff2|588524467}} claiming that there was permission from the family, and "''Stay in your limits''". I then undid it again citing ] and ]. After my third revert I put a note on the talk page requesting discussion. KahnJohn then reverted the name back in without discussion, ignoring ], something he was told about two days ago again claim permission from the family. He did not partake in discussion until several hours later saying "Naming of a victim of a horrible crime should be avoided if the victim or their family does not want the name to be mentioned and there should be reliable sources for the name". I then removed the name again and warned him {{diff2|588571231}}
	Since the beginning of this case, the victims have all requested privacy, especially the name of the daughter to the point where her name was stricken from court records.
	User KahnJohn72 has ignored ], ], ] (specifically ] and ]) ] and has made misleading edit summaries claiming permission to include the name against ] and specific requests for privacy.] 21:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:{{diff2|588579046|diff of notice}} on users talk page.] 21:57, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:I have issued a warning and strongly urged him to seek a new consensus on the talk page (if he can find a new one). ] (]) 22:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Maybe someone should consider revdel-ing, so the name isn't found in the page history? ] (]) 10:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::{{nonadmin}} Not a bad idea. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 18:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Anon on an unusual spree ==
	What's going on here? This anon ] (]) has tinkered with latitude/longitude coordinates on several dozen locations in what seems to be at rather high speed over the past three days. Plus two other edits, perhaps valid, no references, I have no idea. ] (]) 23:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	:Seems to be removing unneeded accuracy. The Earth has a circumference of 40,000km. One degree is about 111km. One minute 1.85km. 1 second 30m. Coordinates are often given to the accuracy of the size of the feature. e.g. if something is 2km by 2km the coordinates will be given to one minute. 30m by 30m they will be given to 1 second. Stating the position of a city to an accuracy of 30 metres when it is many square km in size is not scientific.] 23:39, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
	::Besides, the coordinates, before the IP editor's changes, only describe one very specific ''point'' in each city, the latter of which can be described in minutes, instead of seconds, due to the cities' size. I guess the IP editor is actually doing some good. Let's not dismiss their edits prematurely. ] (]) 00:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Many cities have specific features (a building or a square) from which all official mileage is measured. Are these editors moving the coordinates '''''to''''' those features, or '''''away'''''' from them, or, in one example IO looked at, removing unnecessary "0 seconds"? In other words, are the changes helping or hurting the accuracy of the articles? If they're neutral, then they're unnecessary. ] (]) 01:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::Removing false precision improves accuracy. {{unsigned2|20:46, 31 December 2013‎ (UTC)|MilesMoney}}
	:::::The question is, is the precision "false" or not? ] (]) 10:19, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::{{ping|MilesMoney}} "Removing false precision improves accuracy" is untrue. Imagine the actual value being 0.333... (3s repeating). Suppose "X" is 0.333 followed by random numbers and "Y" is exactly 0.333. Which is closer to the truth, X or Y? Turns out "X" will be closer if it's between 0.333 and 0.333666... (6s repeating). Therefore "X" has 66.666...% chance of being closer, and <b>removing false precision does not improve accuracy. QED.</b> ] (]) 14:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::: This isn't the place for this, but: removing false or unnecessary precision certainly does improve things. I remove unnecessary precision from geographical coordinates on Misplaced Pages all the time. The flaw in your argument is the notion of "the actual value". What is "the actul value" of the latitude of ]? It's a meaningless or at least slippery question, on several levels. —] (]) 14:48, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::<i>"removing false or unnecessary precision certainly does improve things"</i> - do you have a basis for your claim? <i>"The flaw in your argument is the notion of "the actual value". What is "the actul value" of the latitude of ]?"</i> So what you're saying is that because we don't know the exact value, that gives us the right to mess around with it? That's like saying you shouldn't lock your door because a burglar would just pick the lock anyway. ] (]) 14:53, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::Yes, I'm saying that the exact value of the latitude of a city (i.e. to <s>six or more</s> more than six decimal places) has no meaning -- not because we don't know what it is, but because the concept doesn't make sense. —] (]) 15:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*Quite simply, I have no idea if there is supposed to be a policy. At the moment, reverts have already happened to some of the anon's edits. I asked here before doing anything&mdash;others just took action. To clarify: it's an anon with no previous history, there is no stated reason given, no mention of policy, and the edits are happening rather rapidly, perhaps semi-automated.
	*As one example, picked for personal familiarity, ] displays two-digit decimal coordinates above the infobox, and degree-minute-second coordinates inside the infobox (I assume this is done by the template, since I saw no explicit above the box coordinates). Interestingly enough, the two-digit decimal coordinates exhibits exactly the round-off mentioned above: the inside Geo URI geo:39.953333,-75.17 (seen at the top after clicking on the link) becomes geo:39.95,-75.17. Neither location is a particularly notable street location, however, the inside GEO URI is east-west aligned with City Hall. So if the -75.17 were also lowered just a tad&mdash;I eyeball it as -75.165&mdash;the inside Geo URI would land on City Hall. ] (]) 14:52, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:: Philadelphia has two sets of coordinates because it contains both the <code>latd</code> and <code>longd</code> tags in the 'settlement' infobox, and also an explicit {{tl|Coord}} template. That's an error, IMO -- I'll fix it.
	:: As to policy in this area, I don't know of one, but I'll look around and see if I can find anything. —] (]) 15:07, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::: There is, unsurprisingly, a WikiProject on this: ]. And they have specific guidelines on ] (the basic advice being, as others have mentioned here, "avoid excessive"). There doesn't seem to be concise policy on whether to use, say, the location of a city hall as the location of a city. I also haven't found a policy (and I've certainly observed wide variation) in whether to use decimal degrees or degrees/minutes/seconds. —] (]) 15:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== BLP violations, wikilawyering, and tendentious editing by ] ==
	{{archivetop|1=...AAAAAAND the sock has been put away. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 18:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	Tdadamemd seems to have a fixation on "discussing" negative content about Barack Obama or his parents. Looking at his edit summaries reveals what he's focused on. A copy of his current shows he's been warned for edit warring twice and for BLP violations (sections 43, 45, 46). Earlier, I removed this unsourced gem . He persisted, using "google search results as a "source" for this declaration . Multiple editors agreed the discussion was inappropriate and Tarc provided a solid source to refute the unsourced claim . Having been warned by me on BLP and advised I would seek a BLP ban if he continued adding controversial unsourced claims to talk pages, Tdadamemd hit upon the idea of moving the conversation to ] to duck our BLP policies. My attempts to remove his still unsourced assertion have been reverted. , --] <sup>'']''</sup> 00:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Not forum shopping here - I filed ] before I saw this ANI filling. The diffs there help illustrate the problems. ] (]) 00:48, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:I've warned Tdadamend of potential sanctions for tendentious editing, BLP violations, edit-warring and personal attacks per ]. The editor appears to be determined to insert original research concerning the circumstances of Obama's birth wherever it can go. I've recused myself from applying sanctions myself (I'm apparently a fascist-by-omission and see no benefit in a tangential discussion of "involved"), but I request that Tdadamemd be restricted from edits concerning Obama, broadly construed, for at least six months. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 00:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:It's gotten to a point that the editor has to be purposely trolling. There is no way anyone would use such inflammatory descriptions if they were not trying to get reactions from other editors. The editor has committed BLP violations over and over, even after warned numerous times by numerous editors. He should either be blocked for a long period or topic banned. Thanks. ] (]) 01:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Not really much to add. It's pretty much a given that any politician is going to be opposed by around 50% of the voting public, that's the nature of the beast, but there are some particularly salacious and fringe corners that have a particular dislike for the current president of the US. A serious encyclopedia should not be a platform from which to espouse such things; this user brought up the question of the age of consent as it relates to Obama's mother at the time of his conception. As noted above I gave demonstrable proof that she was well over Hawaii's age of consent in 1960. The user is polite enough in words in accepting that, but doesn't want to let go, wanting to , e.g. what happened when they traveled outside of Hawaii, and so on. This just isn't the proper venue to explore such things. ] (]) 01:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	<br>I have posted a wealth of quotes from reliable sources. That makes me anti-Obama? Just because a bunch of editors find facts I have highlighted to be unpleasant, that does not mean that Misplaced Pages should ignore them. Here is a recap of well-referenced facts I posted:
	:- Parents' marriage was interracial,
	:- Mother got pregnant when she was a 17 year old child,
	:- Mother was pregnant at the time of the wedding,
	:- Father was already married at the time of the wedding.
	'''The article mentions ''none'' of this.''' These facts are ''widely accepted''. Why is Misplaced Pages choosing to not communicate what so many reliable authors readily do? Very strange. Just because these editors don't like hearing it does not mean that I am being tendentious by quoting facts that so many authors have documented.
	My very patient, well supported and articulated discussion got summarily squashed. Why? To this day I do not know. One editor mentioned "bastard", so that became an issue. This morning I restored the conversation that had gotten inappropriately declared closed and subsequently archived. I then went on to elaborate on facts regarding Obama Sr and Ann Dunham. There was a huge pushback regarding BLP, so I ''honored'' that and reposted this info in the Obama Sr article with no mention of any living person whatsoever.
	...and people are STILL freaking out, declaring that I'm anti-Obama and have some political agenda. I could probably look up old quotes where I've stated how much I love things Barack Obama has done. Yet here I will still be dismissed with a conclusion that I'm "purposely trolling".
	The facts I have highlighted are backed by a wealth of exact quotes from books and other sources. I did not write these books. I did not publish them. I read from them and posted what I read.
	The biggest problem asserted was BLP. After I moved the discussion to the article on a ''dead'' person, my post was still repeatedly reverted (current state). Upon seeing what's happened on the Obama Sr Talk Page, I am inclined to ''agree'' that what has been going on here is politically motivated. When we are at a point where we are prohibited from having an open discussion about simple facts regarding two dead people, then Misplaced Pages is in a very sad state indeed.
	It is clear to me that immediate rectification needed is restoring the section on the Obama Sr Talk Page. Who exactly here is "wikilawyering" when so many editors are forcing BLP into "B<u>D</u>P" in order to suit their own desires as to what topics are too taboo to have a mature rational discussion over?--] (]) 02:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:So you can recreate the wall of text visible here , whose proposals received no support at all, at two or three more articles, for a third round? You're discussing the circumstances of birth of a living person, so BLP still applies. Other editors simply thought that your calculations were more relevant to the lives of Obama's parents than to Obama, but that does not allow you to skirt BLP and to indulge in speculative discussions at places as far flung as ]. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 03:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::BLP=BDP+offspring? And '''I''' am wikilawyering? Amazing.
	::I'm just one editor. There's a MUCH BIGGER issue going on here. And that is the question as to why there's this tidal wave of editing that's produced this sanitized version of the Barack Obama article, to the point where a single-word descriptor of '''interracial''' inserted before marriage gets clobbered with vehement opposition (such marriages were a ''felony'' across large swaths of the US in 1961).
	::All of this effort that's turned the focus onto me is merely a ''distraction'' from this much bigger point: Misplaced Pages is broken. And you all have ganged up to keep it that way. There needs to be a disclaimer posted to the top of the Barack Obama article that states: "Facts that might be viewed in a negative light can and will be erased. (No matter how well sourced such facts may be.)"
	::Here's where it gets extremely bizarre: One of the main sources I've cited is '''Barack Obama himself'''. How backward a world is this when the President is more open about sharing info about himself than Misplaced Pages is? Broken. My sadness deepens.--] (]) 03:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Let me just say here - this is not an unusual or new pattern. The pattern is generally associated with tea-party or more extreme-conservative true believers who expand from "Obama's parents' marriage was funky" to "...AND HE'S A MUSLIM TERRORIST!" by the time we're done. I do not know for a fact where your motivation is coming from here, but the pattern is ''highly worrying'', Tdadamend.
	:::I am all for allowing reasonable people to put (NPOV balanced, BLP appropriate) negative facts or opinions about Obama on his page. People who start making this type of edit and argument are calling "reasonable", "NPOV balanced", and "BLP appropriate" into question immediately.
	:::That said, review still ongoing. ] (]) 03:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::You have posted zero reliable sources for your repeated addition of . Only an invitation to speculate. As ] said: "Any assertion that someone who has the ability to grant pardons, secretly if need be, is the product of bigamy or statutory rape would need to be sourced to at least one ] peer reviewed academic legal journal article with reputations for fact-checking and accuracy." You have not even provided a link to a general newspaper that makes that assertion. --] <sup>'']''</sup> 04:16, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Would an uninvolved admin please inform {{user|Tdadamemd}} that their efforts to use Misplaced Pages to investigate whether Obama is a bastard {{diff|Talk:Barack Obama|prev|588495919|(diff, see bottom)}}, or whether his father was a criminal who raped his mother {{diff|Talk:Barack Obama|prev|588499287|(diff)}}, <u>must stop</u>. Further, there must be no nibbling at the edges with attempts to {{diff|Talk:Statutory rape|prev|588515374|spread the muck}} on other pages. ] (]) 06:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	I've blocked Tdadamemd for one week per ].--] (]) 09:29, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:], if you had bothered to read the full action of what had transpired since Dec 9th, then you saw that I put forth great effort toward fixing a broken article. My position was extremely well supported with a wealth of sources, and the vehement opposition provided zero (0) sources to support their position. You then saw that violations were made in the closing of an active discussion by an involved editor.
	:Today, the ] article still has not so much as a single mention of the word "interracial". Clearly this is because editors like me have been getting cyber-bullied. Your decision today to block me is your vote of supporting this cyber-bullying. It may not be your intent, but that is the effect.--] (]) 10:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Yawn. ] (]) 10:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Evidence in point (above). My efforts have been focused on rational discourse toward improvements of our articles. I have persistently been badgered and harassed in return. And I am the one who is being blocked.--] (]) 10:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Logging out and continuing to edit while blocked is called Block Evasion and further demonstrates the need for additional sanctions. I SUPPORT a 6 month topic ban for Barack Obama related articles as proposed earlier in this thread. Note the circumstances regarding this editor's prior block and you will see the same pattern of IMHO and DE. -- Joe Sperrazza
	:The posts after Bbb23's comment are from ] (the Sinebot signature was removed). ] (]) 11:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:If block evasion continues or the same type of editing continues after the block expires then yes, I support a topic ban. --] <sup>'']''</sup> 14:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	The article on Obama's mother explains the situation in detail. What his parents may or may not have done is not Obama's fault. And by the way, the ] in Hawaii is 16. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 11:19, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:And, also by the way, though indeed the multiple marriages of Sr. would have made this one grounds for annulment, in Hawaii, issue of annulled marriages are "legitimate". --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 16:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Indefinitely blocked by Jpgordon as a sock of ]. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 16:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== ] ==
	This user, who is apparently an admin, has been engaging in ever-more-bizarre behavior in the last day or so. He's been criticizing Medeis and me, which may be fair (other than the "Statler and Waldorf" nonsense). But after both The Rambling Man and I were told by another admin to knock off the banter, he has continued on with it. He's generally got a snippy attitude, but it seems to be accelerating today: He's been edit-warring over the hatting of trolls' comments on the ref desk talk page. I don't know if this has to do with it being New Year's Eve, or if this is a long-time problem. And what can be done about it, if anything? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:What can be done about it? I have a suggestion: (a) that The Rambling Man be banned from any further interaction with Bugs and Medeis, and (b) that Medeis and Bugs are both banned from posting anything on the reference desks which isn't a direct and straightforward answer to the question - such answer to include a Wikilink to a relevant article, or a citation of a relevant source. Problem solved. ] (]) 01:35, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::I like it, and will happily add my name to the (a) portion if (b) is actually accepted. There's no chance that (b) will be accepted without a fight though. --] (]) 02:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Is it actually the reference desks, or the talk page which are the primary problem now? Still looking at stuff, not seen enough yet. ... ] (]) 02:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Baseball Bugs was told by arbcom to ] Comments like , are not consistent with that advice. <small>]</small> 02:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	: I am perhaps a notch too personally involved in this issue (see , , and ), so any recommendation from me should be taken with a grain of salt, but my personal opinion is that both Baseball Bugs and The Rambling Man should be cautioned and reminded of the importance of civility. Both (again, IMO) have been behaving equally badly. In answer to GWH's question, the RD talk page seems to me to be the bigger problem lately. —] (]) 02:50, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Thank you, Steve, and NE Ent. ] (]) 03:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Anybody who wants to see what's going on here can simply look at made over the last nine days by TRM where he talks to himself about me on his talk page and then deletes his own comments with the edit summary "expunge the crap from bugs and his cohort meds in an attempt to cleanse; so many people have asked these two to do something positive, but nothing. Per bugs: "Utter lack of temperament", "self-appointed court jester of ANI" etc" as if this bizarre monolog were anything to do with me.
	Here's another example of the over a two-week period, with the edit summary "forget this rubbish. If Medeisss wants to call me an asshole, then she's entitled to do so, but despite everything I never resorted to personal attacks on her like that. Despicable snake-like behaviour." A search of TRM's most recent edit summaries finds him calling me a sneak on eight occasions, and a snake on three. I invite users to investigate my talk page to find any attacks by me, or similar obsession with TRM, whose actions I have largely ignored.
	TRM will undoubtedly make a big deal out of where I complain to Jayron on his talk page that Jayron's arguing on ] that only "pot heads" would be interested in a country's legalization of pot is inappropriate, but that, unlike TRM, I won't hound Jayron at ITN or in public. Strangely enough it turns out TRM was stalking the page and chose to interpret my telling J he wasn't an asshole as my saying that TRM was. I didn't become aware of TRM's crusade over this until his bizarre comments started appearing in ITN nomination and edit summaries:
	16:37, 21 December 2013‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (154,635 bytes) (+26)‎ . . (→‎ RD: David Coleman: help slippery one) (undo | thank)</br>
	16:37, 21 December 2013‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (154,609 bytes) (+234)‎ . . (→‎ RD: David Coleman: feed the snake) (undo | thank)</br>
	16:31, 21 December 2013‎ The Rambling Man (talk | contribs)‎ . . (154,375 bytes) (+406)‎ . . (→‎ RD: David Coleman: not so sneaky) (undo | thank)
	and I felt it best to ignore him, although he seems to have found this intolerable. These are the 20 user page notifications I have received from TRM alone over the last two weeks:
	{{hat|expand to see 20 reversions and talk page comments}}
	The Rambling Man left a message on your talk page in "Note3".
	By the way, never post to my talk page ever again, the pair of you. If you have an issue with me, actually take it ANI and don't keep pretending a...
	4 hours ago | View changes
	Your edits on Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk have been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	4 hours ago
	Your edit on Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk has been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	5 hours ago
	Your edit on Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk has been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	5 hours ago
	The Rambling Man left a message on your talk page in "Note3".
	I agree, but please read the posts of the numerous people concerned with both of your edits to the reference desks. To see old contributors coming...
	6 hours ago | View changes
	The Rambling Man thanked you for your edit on UFC 168.
	1 day ago | View edit
	Your edit on Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates has been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	1 day ago
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the The Rambling Man talk page in "AN/I".
	1 day ago | View changes
	27 DECEMBER
	Your edit on Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates has been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	8 days ago
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the In the news/Candidates talk page in " Mikhail Khodorkovs...".
	8 days ago | View changes
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the In the news/Candidates talk page in " Mikhail Khodorkovs...".
	8 days ago | View changes
	Your edit on Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Computing has been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	8 days ago
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the The Rambling Man talk page in "AN/I".
	8 days ago | View changes
	22 DECEMBER
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the Reference desk talk page in "unhelpful edit".
	9 days ago | View changes
	Your edit on Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Computing has been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	9 days ago
	Your edit on Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Computing has been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	9 days ago
	Your edit on Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates has been reverted by The Rambling Man. (Show changes)
	9 days ago
	21 DECEMBER
	Your edit on Radio Maryja has been reverted by Estlandia. (Show changes)
	10 days ago
	20 DECEMBER
	Matty.007 mentioned you on the The Rambling Man talk page in "Sneaky personal attacks by...".
	11 days ago | View changes
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the The Rambling Man talk page in "Sneaky personal attacks by...".
	11 days ago | View changes
	18 DECEMBER
	The Rambling Man and 1 other left a message on your talk page.
	13 days ago | View changes
	Your edit on List of ethnic slurs has been reverted by Chisme. (Show changes)
	15 days ago
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the The Rambling Man talk page in "Sneaky personal attacks by...".
	18 days ago | View changes
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the The Rambling Man talk page in "Sneaky personal attacks by...".
	19 days ago | View changes
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the In the news/Candidates talk page in " ...".
	19 days ago | View changes
	The Rambling Man mentioned you on the The Rambling Man talk page in "Gunny".
	19 days ago | View changes
	{{hab}}
	TRM's stalking behavior and attacks are well known to anyone who's interacted with him. I'd look at recent interactions of TRM with Jayron on his talk page, Somchai Sun, Ummit as mentioned above, and so forth. Within the last 24 hours TRM has stalked me at , reverted me twice when I closed off topic comments on a thread about IP54's socking at the ref desk, and stalked me at . None of this behavior is reciprocated by me.
	I think the '''solution''' is rather obvious, an '''interaction ban''' between myself and TRM would be ''extremely'' welcome. It should consist on a ban from directly or indirectly addressing each other through talk page or edit summaries, but no restriction on editing the same page (since we both edit ITN, for example) except a restriction on following each other immediately from page to page. Perhaps TRM will welcome this. ] (]) 04:16, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:I would likewise be quite happy to never have to hear from or talk to that guy again. I saw today that he had been stalking my entries as well. The main reason I brought this here is because to my eyes it seems like there's something wrong going on with that guy. He seems obsessed. Here's an oddity: He told both Medeis and me to never post on his talk page again. I don't recall ''ever'' posting on his talk page before, until ''after'' that edict when I posted the required notification of this discussion here. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 04:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::I just checked his talk page history over the last year-plus, and I don't see my username there anywhere, except for today's required notification. So I don't know what that was about. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:02, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*There is a discussion at ] (started by ]) with regard to the final two comments in a reference desk section, ]. A reasonable person who had made the remarks complained of would simply say "sorry, I'll avoid that in the future". An unreasonable person might bring the case to ANI and demand that their exasperated critics be silenced. ] (]) 06:22, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::You might want to look at my comments on Deborahjay's talk page. There's nothing for me to apologize for, I was not personally insulted by BB's response, and TRM was entirely uninvolved until, as usual, he stalked me to DJ's talk and inserted himself in the conversation. This ANI has nothing to do with her thread. ] (]) 18:46, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	**Where did I say anything about TRM being "silenced"? I brought this here because when I saw his behavior yesterday, attacking us at every turn, I asked myself, "What's ''wrong'' with that guy?" I came here because I thought someone might have an answer to that question. So far, there is no answer. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 10:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	I agree with AndyTheGrump's suggestion. If this pair of editors can restrict their RD edits to answering questions rather than upsetting numerous editors then I (along with others it would appear) will very happily never interact with either of them again. ] (]) 10:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Answers with links have to be a bit more sensible than the ones posted by Bugs and Medeis in the thread "Gravity" on the Science ref desk. The correct way to respond to questions about gravity is to wait for a physicist/physics teacher to arrive. ] (]) 10:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::The OP asked what gravity is, and I proposed he read the ] article. Silly me. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 10:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Exactly. Very silly you. ] (]) 11:35, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::I admit I failed to provide a link when I said that gravity is "heaviness". Here is that link. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 11:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::A dictionary definition. You're just underlining my point. ] (]) 13:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::I'm pretty much an imbecile, so you'll need to spell out that point for me. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 13:52, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::They were questions about gravity. That's a concept in physics. It needed someone who knows about physics, preferably also about teaching physics, to work out how the questions needed to be approached. That person ''might'' then decide that it would be enough to direct the OP to our article on ], or they might know of a more useful source. There actually are people around who have more to offer than a link to WP, a suggestion to Google, or a link to a dictionary definition. ] (]) 13:58, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::If I were to come here and ask, "What is Edelweiss? Where does it come from?" etc., I wouldn't expect to have to wait for a botanist to show up, I would expect someone familiar with[REDACTED] to tell me to read an appropriate article, such as, for example, ]. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 14:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::And by the way, I've never hear anyone besides you argue that providing a link to a Misplaced Pages article about an OP's question is somehow the ''wrong'' thing to do. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 14:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:There's a basic flaw in TRM's argument. He ''chose'' to go after us, stalking our every edit yesterday. Summit advised him to stop interacting with us, and he ignored that advice. If he's "upset" with anybody, it's because he chooses to. And by the way, it's not just us. He's got a generally bad attitude in interacting with others. It's totally reasonable to question how he ever got to be an admin. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 11:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Another oddity is how often TRM uses the edit summaries to make editorial rants. He seems to have an ongoing ax to grind against Medeis over the last few weeks. I just don't see how TRM's behavior squares with how an admin is supposed to carry himself. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 11:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Suggested way forward. As in a WikiProject, each desk should have a list of volunteers, and we add our areas of interest/expertise. Then OPs can look up to see whether a question falls under someone's area of expertise. For example, Medeis knows Latin and ancient Greek, which is helpful from time to time on the Languages board. Another advantage is that we can see where we have gaps and we could put out trawls in WikiProjects, Signpost etc for more volunteers. What do people think? ] (]) 13:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:The suggestion by Itsmejudith that only experts should be allowed to answer RefDesk questions is very flawed and misguided. Most editors use screen names,and keep their real names secret. This is necessary to prevent harassment from disgruntled editors or malicious vandals and crackpots.Proposals to have some secret process of verifying claimed credentials have been rejected by the community. We judge edits by the quality of the sources, not by supposed credentials. By her proposal, a question at the Humanities Ref Desk about theology would have had to wait for a teacher of religion. Well, we had the ] where someone falsely claimed to have a relevant PhD and to be a tenured professor in the field. At Misplaced Pages, there is no clear way to review the claimed credentials of anonymous editors. That is one reason we refuse to answer questions for professional advice. Most questions are so basic that the answer is clearly stated in one of the four million- plus Misplaced Pages articles, or in some editor's handy undergraduate textbook,or even in a high school textbook. Editors' time would not be best spent by drafting an explanation which is already found in the relevant article. Few questions are such that a professor's expertise is required. If only highly-qualified professionals were allowed to answer questions, then perhaps only qualified professionals should be allowed to edit articles. But that is not a description of how Misplaced Pages works or how it should work. ] (]) 16:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::That's not what I was advocating at all. I said expertise/interest. I can see it working on the Entertainment desk where people say whether they are interested in TV, film, anime etc. Anyway, it's for the ref desks talk page. ] (]) 17:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Here's the editor's totally civil response to my ''required'' notification of this discussion: ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:14, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::The issue here is Rambling Man's stalking and unending grudge holding which goes way beyond me or bugs or the ref desks. We need to institute an '''interaction ban''' to end this.
	{{hat|Other recent examples of unprovoked disruptive attacks by TRM}}
	:::I make a comment at one desk on eggnog, advising the OP that it can be made better at home even if it is unavailable in stores. I get an from TRM with the edit summary "pointless".
	:::I ask for advice on restoring a friend's computer I had upgraded from a back-up I made. I get that it's really my computer: ''Classic "my friend" story. I blame Snowden. Looks like you need a trip to PC World to fix the damage. The Rambling Man (talk) 3:30 pm, 22 December 2013''
	:::I suggest at ITN that the car-bombing death of a Lebanese minister won't get posted if the article on the bombing remains a stub. I get an from TRM taunting that a totally separate article on the Russian bombings has been updated and that I should "think again". This despite the fact that TRM supported the nomination of Mohamad Fatah 24 hours earlier, and that I had supported it. His concern with taunting me caused him to confuse the nominations and disrupt a discussion he himself had just the day before supported.
	{{hab}}
	:::Bugs and I have already said an interaction ban would be helpful, as has TRM. That should be instituted immediately, it is objectively verifiable and enforceable. This is not the place for a discussion of the usefulness of certain answers to questions on gravity or so forth--and any policy worked out would have o apply to all users equally. In the meantime, let's institute this interaction ban immediately. It will have an immediate beneficial effect not only on the parties involved, but on the project as a whole. ] (]) 18:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Gosh, is this still going on? I'd agree with Medeis; I'd also like her to apologise for sneakily calling me an asshole. And assuming her and BB can start to respond to questions at the RDs in a precise and helpful fashion rather than as some "comedic" double act, we'll have no further problems. ] (]) 18:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:OK, I think I'm beginning to get the picture: You're still irked over allegedly being called a name - ''weeks ago''. One of your favorite patronizing, snippy comments is "move along". You should take that advice yourself. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:50, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Interaction ban means don't respond to my comments. The sooner you learn that, the quicker you can get back to the chat rooms. ] (]) 18:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::It also means don't respond to ''my'' comments. The sooner you learn that, the quicker your sought-after interaction ban will begin. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:58, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::"his comments on AN/I tend to inflame situations rather than defuse them", "your actions on ANI scares me", " Looking over his contributions to WP:AN/I, they're usually adding to the drama or really lame jokes that often derail serious conversations"... ring any bells? Seems that you haven't learnt a thing since then. And I think you'll find it was your RD pal Medeis who suggested the interaction ban. Get someone else to let me know when we can start ignoring each other, you can go back to using Misplaced Pages as Facebook and I'll carry on improving content. Cheers. ] (]) 19:02, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::No, no bells ringing. I don't know where you're getting those quotes from. But it's apparent that you ''don't'' want an interaction ban. Alrighty then, at Burger King. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::You don't know? Perhaps you should have a long think. There are plenty more where those came from. You're clearly back in the ANI game you like to play. I don't do crappy American food though, sorry, thanks for the offer. ] (]) 19:16, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::No, I really hate ANI, but sometimes it becomes necessary. But unlike you, I'm not bothered by name-calling, and since I don't remember it, it must be long ago. The front part of the "at Burger King" reference is "Have it your way..." That one is probably before your time. The reason I opened this discussion is because yesterday I began to seriously worry about your health and stability: Your obsessiveness over this perceived wrong seemed to be extreme and accelerating. If you can assure us that you've got things under control now, we can close this. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::And you haven't learnt a thing since receiving those comments it would appear. I've given you my conditions. Medeis apologises, and you pair start responding to editors in a helpful manner (as was requested near the top of this thread by yet another complainant of yours), not a double-act fashion which has caused so many people to complain about both of your behaviour at the ref desks. Done deal. ] (]) 19:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::Your adminship does not give you license to demand "conditions" regarding perceived wrongs. And since you yourself so often respond to editors in an unhelpful manner, such advice coming from you carries no weight. Furthermore, you haven't confirmed that you're in control of your emotions yet, so I'm assuming the answer is still "No." ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:37, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::::I have never mentioned or used adminship as any kind of tool in this "discussion". Please, go ahead, you and your cohort, continue to post here, knock yourselves out, and eventually it'll be closed and someone will chastise us all for being naughty and you'll carry on being unhelpful at the chat rooms and I'll carry on improving content. "Consistently bad attitude", "Unhelpful jokes/sarcasm on WP:AN/I. I'd like to see you tone it down" etc... plus all the good advice Arbcom gave you, all wasted it appears. ] (]) 19:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::::It's your own attitude that needs substantial improvement. I raised this discussion because I was worried about you. It appears my concern was wasted. That's the way things go sometimes. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::::::"inserting fatuous humor in wildly inappropriate contexts", "He tries to disrupt the project anytime somebody disagrees with him", "Baseball Bugs' comments have created a markedly hostile environment", "Bugs' comments have consistently been beyond the pale", "I've lurked enough in the past few weeks to see near universal resentment for the regularly unhelpful and/or detrimental additions by Bugs sand Medeis" .... Sounds like you need to look closer to home. ] (]) 21:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*The Rambling Man needs to disengage from Bugs and Medeis immediately and permanently. His edits in the 20-edit box are pretty blatent Wikihounding, the kind that would get other editors indeffed. It is particularly disheartening that he has been edit warring on Misplaced Pages talk pages. As such, there needs to be a one-sided interaction ban on TRM with these two editors. <span style="border:1px solid;background:#800080">]]]</span> 20:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	**Ah, hi PBP89, wondered how long it'd be before you weighed in. Nice to see you and happy new year. I take you advocate personal attacks then, since you (and most others here) are keen to overlook the fact that Medeis called me an asshole. What's more disheartening is that this pair of editors have been criticised by multiple editors for their abuse of the RDs but no-one is prepared to acknowledge that. I'm sorry to see that BB wasted all the good advice he was given by many, many editors (plus "sneaks in final word" for instance) and Arbcom themselves, and sorrier to see that Medeis is allowed to (nay, encouraged to) make personal attacks. All I've ever wanted was (a) a redaction of and apology for the direct personal attack by Medeis and (b) that her and BB actually treat editors with the respect they deserve at the RD. Whether they like it or not, their continuing attempts at humour are lost on most, and are interpreted as something completely (and distastefully) different. Happy to stay away from them in future, but these issues need to be addressed. ] (]) 20:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	***I closed it because I thought you ''wanted it'' closed. Someone else re-opened it. Fine, whatever. I can't speak to your issues with Medeis, that's between you two. But I can say that I strive to ''always'' treat editors with exactly the respect they deserve. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	This is a weird one for me. I'm here because an anon IP who is strangely familiar with WP procedures invited me. I've not been named so far in this thread, although I participated in the recent Reference Desk Talk thread about Bugs and Medeis' behaviour. TRM has been complaining about them both for some time, and I substantially agree with the issues he raises. However, he's been talking about doing something, rather than doing it, for months now, so I'm hardly surprised that one of his targets has called his bluff. Therefore, some observations:
	1) Other people being jerks doesn't justify TRM, or me for that matter, being jerks too.
	2) One-sided interaction bans are an awful idea. They give licence to the other party in the dispute to have the last word in any discussion, and to exclude the first party from any sub-thread just by showing up. Interaction bans need to be bilateral.
	3) Although the wall of text above is mostly heaping opprobrium on TRM, I feel that this thread has the possibility to ].
	4) I suspect that Bugs doesn't feel certain users deserve much respect, which hardly helps foster an environment in which people are treated with respect, deserving or not.
	5) This isn't limited to RD, although RD is all three users' favourite playground, to the extent that I've largely stopped participating. Both users are also strongly active - often in their respective signature styles - at ITN/R. And Bugs was recently censured () in the Chelsea Manning arbcom case.
	6) I'm quite ill at present, so I can't spare the energy to bring a case here directly. But I would urge as many admins as can spare the time to review the actions of ''all'' the main parties in this case.
	In short, it all stinks. ] (]) 01:05, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Anything that happens here is trivial, compared to life and health. Be good, and get well soon. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Christian2941 Ban proposal ==
	I am proposing ban ] for adding factual errors, hoax information, vandalism, and spam. Because the user was made incorrect information in 2011. The user keeps changing birthdates, creating hoax stations, and a made vandalism articles. ]]<small> ]</small> 02:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:User is already indefinitely blocked as vandalism-only account. See ]. Nothing more to be done. <small>]</small> 02:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:'''support''' - Au contrarie, NE Ent, the auto-revert all contribs of merely indef blocked users doesn't hold up, whereas it does for banned users. Given the 2.75 year, hundredish sockpuppet long term abuse case, I agree a ban is appropriate. ] (]) 02:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Last edit was May 2011, and vandalism can already be reverted at will -- it's even ] exempt (if obvious). <small>]</small> 03:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::The last CU confirmed sockpuppet was Dec 10, 2013 ( ), and the reverting at will for banned users covers all edits, even those not immediately obvious as vandalism, which avoids contentious discussions about whether banned users are contributing positively or not. That issue never goes away. Once banned, you just nuke the content, and someone else who wants to take responsibility can re-add it on their own judgement later. ] (]) 03:15, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::I agree that ban proposal for a should be add ] at ]. ]]<small> ]</small> 05:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::(Re-opening discussion) '''Support''' Apologies for closing this so early, but it's quite obvious that because of the high level of sockpuppetry he deserves a ban. ]]<font color="#0645AD"></font> (]) 12:37, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::They don't "deserve" anything. Bans are not punishment (see ]). This remains pointless -- socks can be reverted at all and the edits are still. Perhaps a ban proponent could provide us a link to a ''single'' remaining live edit from the account which cannot be reverted as obvious vandalism. <small>]</small> 12:52, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::Again, the effectively banned bans are turning controversial too often. If it needs to stick, let the community do the real one. ] (]) 13:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::I thought he was banned already for ]. In any case, I will '''support''' a site ban. ] (]) 15:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Racist captcha ==
	{{archivetop|No need for administrative attention. The admins can't change captcha codes. {{nac}} ]] 05:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC) }}
	While attempting to edit Misplaced Pages, I was asked to use a Captcha to verify that I was a human. I am a new editor and I understand that this means I need to confirm I am a legitimate user of the website, but I was horrified to find the text I was required to type said 'nigerblew' (I do not think the missing 'g' makes a lot of difference). If you need proof, please see my screenshot:
	http://snag.gy/JpSUR.jpg Am I correct in assuming that Captchas are made at random? If so, is it possible to prevent this from happening to another user? ] (]) 02:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:I guess we'll have to wipe ] off the map, then. Sorry, but the "g" is quite important. Words have meaning, and not everything is a hidden racial epithet. ] (]) 02:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:{{ec}}] is a country (among ]. Is it racist (even given the missing 'g')? --] (]) 03:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:{{ec}}Ah... Although no human being was involved in that, I apologize for you seeing it and thank you for reporting it. That's not right.
	:Yes, they are made at random, and I recall there is some manual "don't use these" pattern matching before the string is shown to you, but those patterns are only as good as the list of bad words programmed in to avoid. We might well have the two-g's version of that blocked already but not with one-g, for example. But I don't know for sure.
	:I am going to post this on the wikitech-l email list where the people who do site operations can review and do anything that can be done.
	:] (]) 03:02, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Depending on how sensitive we want to be, we might want to block 'niggardly' and 'fag' as well. But do we want to block 'indian', 'pork', 'god', and 'whiskey'? Is it more racist to show 'niger', or to block an important river because some people might think it's racist? — ] (]) 03:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::(ec) Yes, by all means, GWH, lets purge that list. And while we're at it, let's get rid of like, Nike, pike, hike and bike, all of which are one letter off from "kike", and let's do away with spit (too close to "spic"); mop, hop, top, sop, fop, lop, cop and mop (one letter difference from "wop"); nick, wick, hick, lick, sick and kick (which someone might confuse with "mick").<p>"Niger" is not "nigger", and anyone who confuses them is profoundly uneducated -- or, consider the name they chose for their "new" (hmmmm....) account, perhaps they're just pulling our chain. ] (]) 03:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:{{od}} (eye roll) I am going to make you sit through the manager sensitivity and anti-sexual-harassment training I just did, BMK. No, can't do that, the training ''literally'' isn't safe for work... (paw own eyes and brain out)
	:I would not personally have been offended by "Niger" either, as I know it's a country, but if other people react thinking it's the two-G word, ''it does not harm the encyclopedia in any way'' if we take that word off the list of possible words for the captcha. It's not going to affect article space whatsoever. It will not filter anything in contributions, talk, etc. It's purely removing a word some persons feel might be racist from the captcha. ] (]) 03:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Listen, don't "eye roll" me, my wife works in HR, for a non-profit civil-rights law firm, no less, so I'm more than familiar with all that jazz, but I also live in a real world where terribly ignorant people have much more influence than they should. Misplaced Pages, as a project to create an '''''encyclopedia''''' is, at least in part, an effort to educate people, and rather that acquiesce to the madness, it's better to inform people why they are mistaken, and not validate their ignorance by giving in to it. So, in that way, it '''''does''''' hurt the encyclopedia, because giving in is antithetical to the underlying purpose of our mission. ] (]) 03:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::Ok, color me confused. Are you not cluing in that this is the ''outgoing captcha'' we are talking about, that we show to people under circumstances such as some unconfirmed edits, new account signups, etc? It has nothing - ZERO - to do with content in the encyclopedia. Filtering naughty words or - in this case - nearby to naughty words that some person might mistake for naughty, is just us avoiding accidentally random-number-generator-offending people. It's not content related. It says nothing about content, talk, etc. Us not offending or confusing people is part of the encyclopedic goals... ] (]) 03:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::I understand exactly what happened, please don't condescend to me. The person came here and reported their ignorant response to the captcha, and you tugged on your forelock and said "Our bad". Well, it's '''''not''''' our bad, '''''we''''' didn't misinterpret "Niger" for "nigger", and we have nothing to apologize for. If we're here to educate, and we are, then explaining why "Niger" isn't "nigger" is the proper response -- maybe even with reference to our '''''encyclopedia articles''''', do you think? Your taking the responsibility onto ourselves wasn't a good thing to do, as I believe several other people agree. ] (]) 03:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Unfuckingbelievable that you would even consider adding the name of a river to some kind of black list. ] ] 03:37, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::I don't know what's in our captcha blacklist, but as a rule, there are usually quite significant numbers of place names and dual-use words in such filters, because some people find ] offensive. ] (]) 03:42, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::Which is why "fucking" should be blacklisted, but not "Australia". ] (]) 03:45, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Ahem. Austria and Australia are different places. There's some odd place names here, too. --] (]) 04:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::I wonder if the list includes small boats, like ]s? <small>]</small> 03:48, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::For US people, "punt" is most associated with our version of Football, and is culturally well enough known. Few people remember the boats (sob). I don't recall seeing it on filter lists, but I might have missed it. ] (]) 04:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::The adjectival form for someone from the United States is not "US person" it's "American". ] (]) 04:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Incidentally the edit FirstNewYearAcc2014 made referenced a non-existant source and added content I'm getting a total blank from google. (I reverted). <small>]</small> 03:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::I can't find any web material suggesting there is a remake of ''The Avengers'' in progress, which either means this acct trolled us on that point, or this was a first leak of a brand new TV show. One can make a reasonable guess. ] (]) 03:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::What BMK said, above. Why Georgewilliamherbert thinks it's a good idea to import corporate HR-think even HE finds ridiculous is beyond me. Perhaps we should hide ] to avoid offending people who see things within words. --] | ] 03:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::As a general rule, yes, Scunthorpe vanishes from most random world / captcha generators for this reason. Are you all really so ignorant of real world standard practices with these things? ... ] (]) 03:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	A user is offended by something that resembles a racist epithet, and several people respond by calling this person an ignorant idiot. Because that ''always'' solves things. Perhaps we should have disclaimer on the captcha: "If you're offended by a word here, it's because you're an ignorant idiot. EDUCATE YOURSELF." Problem solved, amiright? *shakes head* Seriously, irrespective of whether "Niger" should be removed from the captcha, I would expect more civil behavior from administrators than this. –] (] ·
	]) 03:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::(ec) Anyone who is offended by "Niger" '''''is''''' ignorant, pretty much by defintion, and if that's it, that's the end of it. If they come here, the proper response, especially from an admin of long experience like GWH, is to explain WHY it's not racist, point them to the relevant articles, and WHAMMO!! we've helped erase some ignorance from the world. The answer is NOT to play into their ignorance, which is what GWH did. ] (]) 04:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::It's common website practice (I don't know the WMF filters, but do know others) to avoid potential misinterpretations and apply the precautionary principle. Apparently that is not widely known among participants in this discussion. We may have been trolled, but my response is what ops teams on any other website would do. If you thing this is wrong, you're out of touch with normal website practices, and with the HR issues stuff I mentioned and you said you understood. If it can offend people, and it's not part of the site role, ''you just don't do it''. Sure, we could take any mistake and use it as an educational opportunity. Why didn't you, instead focusing on me? ] (]) 04:11, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::Perhaps because it was YOU who jumped in and publicly blamed US without reference to the OP's error? Could THAT be it, Georgewilliamherbert? ] (]) 04:15, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::There was no point in duplicating the "The country of Niger..." comments I ECed with responding, so I didn't. I focused on the thing they had not, the same reaction I'd have as webmaster@ (any commercial site) who would say exactly what I did, because that's standard operating procedure. Again, web SOP, your captcha emits something someone finds offensive, close to a real offensive word, you expand the filter. I am going beyond confused into appalled that this is considered unreasonable here by so many people, even though we (me) do appear likely to have been trolled. Either they spent ten minutes with photoshop, or we emitted that captcha. Either they have some non-public info about a new TV series and leaked it here, or we got trolled on that point. A troll photoshopping a screen snap is not my first reaction, though that may have happened. If you think my reaction was out of line for what a webmaster@ responder would do on another site, you'd get fired from that job anywhere else around day 1. ] (]) 04:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*So a first time editor, who is adding a non-existent source, just happened to get a captcha code that sort of looks like a racical epithet if you are ignorant of the actual word and what Niger is? Then runs here and creates a big deal about it? I'm no math whiz, but something doesn't smell right about those odds. ] (]) 04:03, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Which brings up the point that we only have the OP's word for what the captcha said. Given the edit... ] (]) 04:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::The non-existent source wasn't evident until NE Ent went and looked, though I can confirm it's nonexistent (and, there's not a whisper on the net of other thins that might confirm what they added). The apparent screenshot would be a lot of effort to go to in order to troll us; in combination with the fake source, though, that's not unreasonable to wonder about or assume. But there is a problem with the reactions above, trolled or not. ] (]) 04:07, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::There certainly is, and mainly with your own. ] ] 04:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::Actually, the problem is that people are literally getting offended that someone else was offended by mistaking "Niger" for a misspelled racist word. Maybe some folks here are educated enough to discern the difference, but that's little excuse for talking down to someone who may not be. Educate that person? Fine. Berate them, and others who are sympathetic to them? Uncivil. –] (] · ]) 04:16, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::It's not talking down to someone to say "You're mistaken." This was a potential teaching moment, that Georgewilliamherbert turned into a bit of politically correct cravenness. ] (]) 04:20, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::It was a potential teaching moment that two other admins had (ec)ed with me over providing, already, so I responded to the (evident, but now apparently trolling) offender user part of it. Again, it's not politically correct to respond this way to an offended user, it's customer service. Heavens, we can't respond to apparently offended users with a first reaction that's sensitive to their complaint. That would be crazy talk, like oh, anywhere in the real world would do. *gasp* It's not PC. It's basic customer-sensitive, customer-service, offended-customer-gets-credible-sympathetic-ear-on-first-contact response. Again, real world web response 101. ] (]) 04:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::GWH is a civility whore. Should we block the word ''cant'' as being equally only one one letter away from another word some appear to find offensive? In some accents the two words are indistinguishable. ] ] 04:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:I'm amazed that no one got suspicious of the username immediately, as it looks like we were being trolled. ] (]) 04:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::Actually, I did. See my "Hmmmm....." above, in my very first comment. ] (]) 04:20, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Ah, I missed that. New users are unlikely to make their first post about an offensive post here, so I am glad to know that you also share my suspicions. ] (]) 04:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::{{ec}}I work in this area professionally. It is common practice to remove candidate words that could generate offense, or that resemble words that could generate offense. Because, why not? We're not for want of words to use. We have quite a lot of them. It doesn't impact anything negatively to remove niger from our candidate list. Nothing. It does, however, eliminate the possibility that we would hint at an idea that might cause unnecessary controversy and drama. Like this whole completely pointless thread. I get that "penis" is just another word, and we should all act like mature adults about it, but do we want to force people to type "penisblew" to edit wikipedia? Why not give captchas like "greenleaf" and save ourselves this kind of ridiculous trouble. The hostility generated by this '''completely standard''' suggestion is mind boggling. We're not AfDing ]. And yes, the user might be a troll. That's no reason not to fix a problem. &nbsp; &mdash; ]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">&middot; ]]</span> 04:28, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*<p>The following is true: When I was in the US army, stationed in Europe, the black shoe polish displayed four or five different languages for "black". At a gathering of bilingual, (or better), "locals", and American soldiers, (barely speaking English well), some locals took to joking, and having innocent fun; regarding <span class="plainlinks"></span>—until one of my colleagues assaulted the person he was sure was directing racial slurs at him.</p><p>Young people got hurt with fat lips and abrasions; but did heal quickly, for their youth.</p><p>I say ] had it exactly right in his immediate response! It is exponentially more important, and correct, to say what it is, and to say it isn't healthy succumbing to a mentality of: "it must be see racially". And if FirstNewYearAccc2014 did just learn of one of the other countries that share our world, well; truly nothing bad has happened at all. I am glad that he show enough character to ask; to speak of his discontent—and I hope, a like measure; seeing that Tarc nailed it right then when he answered.—] (]) 04:31, 1 January 2014 (UTC)</p>
	::*Sounds like your colleague needed thicker skin, some education and anger management classes. Not only is the word for black "negro" in other languages, but it's still used on the US Census to describe black Americans. Maybe he should go punch out someone at the United Negro College Fund offices too. ] (]) 05:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Postscript: account has been ] blocked. <small>]</small> 11:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Disruptive editing by user ANTONI20 ==
	{{u|ANTONI20}} has been removing sourced material from articles on U.S. District Courts. He does not leave any explanation for these removals, either in an edit summary or on the appropriate talk pages. See:
	* ]
	* ]
	* ]
	* ]
	* ]
	* ]
	* ]
	See his contribution history for more examples, .
	ANTONI20 was questioned about blanket changes to an article and about changes without discussion. He was warned , , , , , , and .
	This has been discussed , , and in addition to the warnings on his talkpage.
	Based on the number of changes, deletions, and warnings, I believe that a one week block might be appropriate to get his attention so that he will stop removing sourced material. I will notify him on posting this and will post a diff to the notification in a minute. <span style="border:1px solid #900;padding:2px;background:#fffff4">]&nbsp;]</span> 05:50, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	ANTONI20 was notified of this discussion . <span style="border:1px solid #900;padding:2px;background:#fffff4">]&nbsp;]</span> 05:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== ] and Philippine-related BLPs ==
	{{archivetop|Closing discussion as I decided to settle with Theparies on the issue. ] (]) 09:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	I've sent a message on his talk page concerning what he did to talk pages for Filipino actors and other notables. I tried to reason him as to why he shouldn't elevate the ] from low or medium to high, but now he's playing the racist or irrationally-proud nationalist card when he told me this:
	{{blockquote|''The reason why ] is less notable than ] is because world history has a tendency to give bias towards the wealthy so obviously brown-skinned people are less 'notable' than Westerners. There is no article in Britannica for ] even if she is one of the most successful comedienes in the country but there is one for Julia Roberts or Meryl Streep.''}}
	Any thoughts on how to deal with him in a civil, reasonable manner? ] (]) 08:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::<s>This should be dealt with an in-project discussion. I perceive that there is a bias against Filipino actors because ]'s fifty-something year career gives him a little more than a high-assessment in terms importance yet he basically established the foundations of ]. As far as the 'racism' goes, it's an allegory on the lack of scholarly articles about the film industry of the Philippines. I apologize for being harsh but sometimes the truth hurts.--] (]) 08:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::FYI a certain ] is rated as a Top-importance article yet barely any Filipino may have any knowledge of her.-] (]) 08:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC)</s>
	::I've decided not to make a bigger issue out of this and apologize and promise not to use any racist rhetoric again.-] (]) 08:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::I understand, dude, didn't really intend or mean to get ticked off at you in the first place. :) And you're right about Jasmine, too. It seemed like the mainstream (read: masa) likes to give more weight to the likes of celebrities than those who went into more noble pursuits. ] (]) 09:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::So are you willing to retract this because I am really scared right now.--] (]) 09:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::You don't need to be scared, though I'm sorry if it seemed like as if I brought this issue a little overboard. So, yes, I say we move on and settle with improving things. ] (]) 09:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Please Help ==
	{{archivetop|1=] took care of it. (]) '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 18:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	Please can an Admin PLEASE Look at this .... we are getting nowere all we want is someone Blocked and its not getting done ! https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Destructive_editing ] (]) 16:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	{{archivebottom}}
	== Disruptive editing by ] ==
	{{archive top|] is that way. A little coaching of Samizambak might go a long way, Omnipaedista. ] <small>(])</small> 18:04, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	This editor keeps copypasting/spamming the same unreliably sourced text (claims about the Sumerian origins of certain Balkan musical instruments) to various music-related articles. When I reverted their edits and asked for a reliable source on their talk-page they started spamming my talk page with nonsense posts. Among the sources they cited were http://www.nikosmanias.gr/index.php?laouto_en and http://www.shlomomusic.com/luteorigins.htm. --] (]) 16:35, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Samizambak] (]) 17:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:I did write that musical instruments were those of pandur origin.] (]) 17:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:(]) I've added resources] (]) 17:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Sources add that I was able to find from google. I own opinion pages are not changed according to scientific and historical data. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:22, 1 January 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Lute&action=history The changes I made were deleted why? <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	{{archive bottom}}
	== ] ==
	At ], ] was banned from patrolling the new pages feed. Well a look at ] shows that he is still doing so. I cannot see how he is doing it properly at that speed. Is he still banned? Can anything be done? ] (]) 18:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Yes, Lgcsmasamiya was banned from page patrolling, and it looks like he is still doing it haphazardly. As someone who has had to clean up some of his messes, I think it's time to prevent him from further violating the ban.- ]] 18:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::ETA: It looks like he is not adding any cleanup tags to any of these articles. I'm going through them now to make sure there are not any copyvios or ] vios.- ]] 18:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	*] blocked until they can demonstrate an understanding of, and a willingness to comply with, the guidelines and conventions involved with new page patrol. ]] 19:07, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:*This ban is not listed at ] yet. Should the topic ban on Lgcsmasamiya be put up there? ] (]) 19:50, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::*Yes. I have added it. - ]] 7:12 pm, Today (UTC−5)
	== ] -- block requested ==
	{{archive top|1=Blocked by {{u|Mark Arsten}} due to ]. ] (]) 21:29, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	] (no user page) appeared today and is edit warring various music articles, apparently replicating edits by indef-blocked ] ]. The DUCK test seems clearly satisfied, and even if it's not the editor is apparently unwilling to edit constructively. ] (]) 19:58, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Alright, I've blocked per the duck test. ] (]) 20:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== Can't revert ] ==
	{{archive top|1=Done by {{u|Darkness Shines}}. ] (]) 21:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)}}
	A false positive with the auto filter is preventing me from reverting the addition of irrelevant spam/soapboxing content at ]. I've filed a report re the false positive, but the page still needs to be fixed. --] (]) 20:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Done. ] (]) 20:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
	== Editor who was disinvited from my user talk page ... ==
	Now inn full harassment mode.
	I asked ] not to post on my UT page on 29 December at 6:23
	He posted after that on my UT page at 6:49
	I iterated my request at 6:53
	His response is now to simply keep "thanking" me for edits for which there is no rational basis for his "thanks" whatsoever: Giving me "notifications" which are actually quite annoying, and appear to be the result of following my contributions:
	:'' Today
	:''MilesMoney thanked you for your edit on User talk:A Quest For Knowledge. 2 hours ago | View edit
	:''MilesMoney thanked you for your edit on User talk:A Quest For Knowledge. 5 hours ago | View edit
	:''MilesMoney thanked you for your edit on User talk:A Quest For Knowledge. 6 hours ago | View edit
	:''MilesMoney thanked you for your edit on User talk:A Quest For Knowledge. 6 hours ago | View edit
	:''MilesMoney thanked you for your edit on User talk:BD2412. 19 hours ago | View edit
	The cumulative effect sought appears to be harassment at this point, and I ask whether others also would view this "thanking" in order to make the "red notification" thingie keep appearing at the top of every page as in keeping with Misplaced Pages guidelines for editor behaviour.
	[https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:MilesMoney&diff=588721389&oldid=588717594[ Editor notified of discussion.
	If this is ''not'' harassment, then ''what'' is it? ] (]) 22:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	: I'm inclined to agree. Anyone who plays that kind of game should read ], just to make sure they're not making the grade <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 22:15, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::ESL, could you please show me the policy against thanking editors? ] (]) 22:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::Vis-à-vis ], I believe the ''pièce de résistance'' is this response from Miles when he was asked to knock it off. Seems to me that a simple, "Oh, you don't like that? I'll stop it then," would have been much more appropriate. ] (]) 22:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::Which part of that policy says not to thank editors? ] (]) 22:28, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::: The policy you're looking for is ]. You need to consider yourself ''unofficially'' on a 1-way ] with Collect before it actually becomes ''official''. When someone says "leave me alone", thanking them 5 times in one day is ''not'' leaving them alone. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 22:29, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::What he said was to stay off his talk page, which I have done. You know, WP:ANI is supposed to be for serious violations of policy, not for complaints about being thanked too much. ] (]) 22:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::Miles, if you continue to deliberately piss off Collect, I will block you. ] (]) 22:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::If that were my intent, I'd block me, too. But it's not. Strange that nobody -- including Collect -- bothered asking me what I was doing or why. ] (]) 22:42, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:{{comment}}: A full log of MilesMoney's "Thanks" can be found . Regards, <font style="padding:2px;background:#ADE6E1;border:1px solid">]</font><font style="padding:1px 5px;background:black;">]</font> 22:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	Instead of playing 20 questions, let me make this simple:
	# It wasn't my intent to annoy Collect. I'm sorry if I annoyed him.
	# If I had known it was annoying him, I'd have stopped.
	# He really ought to have told me, since it's not obvious that thanking is a bad thing.
	# Now that I know, I won't thank him ever again. Promise.
	# So, uhm, why was this in ANI instead of a polite request from him that I'd have immediately honored?
	There we go. ] (]) 23:27, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:One minor problem: You "thanked" me for edits where my edit summary was ''yeppers -- either he is stalking my edits or he is extraordinarily adept at ESP'' and I doubt you "thanked" an edit where the gist was that I was being stalked. He "thanked" a post which stated '' The editor has recently been editing a number of articles very closely related to that article, and involving BLPs. (expect a stalker to comment imminently''. He "thanked" a post which stated ''And again. I think at the fourth "thank" for this sort of edit he should be rewarded on a noticeboard?'' and he avers that it was ''not'' his "intent" to harass me. I waited until. his fifth "thank" lest he not notice what my post stated clearly. And I trust he actually read the posts for which he "thanked" me else the behaviour is even less honourable on his part. Cheers -- but I find his comments that he was '''really thanking me''' to be less than credible. ] (]) 23:35, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::If you didn't want me to thank you, all you had to do was ask on my talk page. Sometimes a thank you is a sign of deep gratitude, other times, it's more like a nod or a wave to acknowledge that the post was noticed. As for the red notification box, triggering that is no more annoying than saying ], and there's no policy against that, either. On the other hand, ] is definitely a policy. ] (]) 23:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::And of course by deliberately wikilinking me, you guaranteed '''yet another red Notifications flag''' when I suspect you knew I was already following this discussion. 6 strikes (deliberate acts calculated to get me that red flag as often as possible - solely from you) better mean someone says "Out!" folks -- this last link was deliberate, calculated, and quite frankly untenable as "thanking" anyone, but is pure harassment without even the need to ask anyone. Cheers ... ] (]) 23:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::Look, it's obvious that this new year has found you very low on patience and good faith, but this is the wrong way to deal with your unhappiness. Why didn't you just ask me to stop if it was bothering you? Why did you assume I could read your mind? What possible recourse is there now? I can't unthank you. ] (]) 00:03, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	* There's no salient human who thinks it's appropriate to randomly thank someone 5 times in one day. I know I'm prepared to propose a 1-way interaction ban of Miles from Collect, which would include everything from thanks to talkpages, to echo links, you name it ... Miles is either being intentionally obnoxious or wholly clueless ... neither are beneficial to the project <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 00:11, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::I didn't randomly thank him, so I'm not sure how that applies. ] (]) 00:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:* Endorse interaction ban. I'd personally give Miles a few months off from editing, given the sheer number of threads here recently about his behaviour, whether intentional or not, his presence is not conducive to the harmonious operation of the project. ] (]) 00:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:* Endorse boomerang. Collect has been trying to stir up trouble with me all day. The first diff he was thanked for was his attempt to get me blocked by misinterpreting an article ban, and this report is nonsense that could have been averted by assuming good faith and ''simply asking''. ] (]) 00:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:* Endorse one-way interaction ban. Miles' comment immediately above is an eminently clear demonstration of his intent to be annoying if not undeniably disruptive, and his other comments in this discussion only pile up the evidence. ] (]) 00:26, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:* Endorse one-way interaction ban. Miles' comment just above Hullaballoo's demonstrates clear intent to abuse the "thank" tool. Miles keeps going back to "all he had to do is ask," but Collect ''did'' ask and he was ignored. It's time to draw a line in the sand against the nonstop disruption. ] (]) 00:35, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	*I've blocked MilesMoney for 48 hours for abusing the thanks function as well as the other notification function. Compare and MM's comment above: {{tq|"If I had known it was annoying him, I'd have stopped."}} Really? Why didn't you stop after , then? That's nice that you undertake not to thank Collect again. Please don't replace it with any other <s>puerile</s> clever ]s for annoying him ''or others'' again, either. ] &#124; ] 00:31, 2 January 2014 (UTC).
	*:Endorse block. MilesMoney was obviously being deliberately obnoxious with all these childish thank you notifications and anyone that has been paying attention knows that the relationship between Collect and MilesMoney has been less than cordial. All these tedious thanks after being asked by Collect to leave him alone can't be construed as anything other than harassment.--] 01:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:Further discussions about bans not appropriate at the time. Collect came, Bish blocked ... the next logical step is to wait and observe MM's post block behavior before considering further sanctions. <small>]</small> 01:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:: Based on Miles' behaviour in this thread alone, it's obvious the block isn't enough - the block merely prevented continued issues while the IB discussion is underway <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 01:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::I concur, the discussion regarding an I-ban was only just beginning and I see no reason at all that one could not still be imposed. ] (]) 01:31, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	::::{{cue}} Is there an option to disable MilesMoney's thanks (i.e. no thanks button for this editor)? ] (]) 01:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Can blocked editors thank anyway? You can turn off the red facebook alert number thing in preferences --> notifications. --]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>✌ 02:05, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	== Sharedupload-desc-here help ==
	Could you please help me on with ]?--] (]) 22:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	== DMB112 ==
	{{user|DMB112}} and I had gotten into an unfortunate content dispute in mid December that resulted in both myself and DMB112 receiving a 2 week long block for edit warring. Apparently, during this time, DMB112 began editing under the account {{user|RedPill1785}} which he used to edit several articles, including (although he did not edit content that was central to the dispute). Today, RedPill1785 at ] and then . DMB112 and (] if relevant).
	In addition to this sockpuppetry, DMB112 has repeatedly made ad hominem attacks towards me during the dispute and after, (), , , and today as at the beginning of the block he had made it clear . I had hoped that the two weeks wold have allowed him to disengage, as beyond a statement I had made at ] to act on the new consensus they had reached in our absense I was planning on leaving things be. But his repeated personal attacks, his clear ] mentality at ] (his proposed additions were unwanted but he simply kept them and modified them into what he thought was a lesser version, this is touched upon by editors during the block under ]), and this revelation that he evaded the block and has clearly stated he will evade again are matters that should be dealt with.—] (]) 22:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	I also expect that DMB112 will attempt to use this thread as an attempt to follow through with his plans to seek further punishments against me. I know I've not been the best, and I've been nearly Jekyll and Hyde in recent months, but I only mean to improve the encyclopedia. And that unfortunately has resulted in me being somewhat pigheaded, which has caused the many stupid disputes that in better judgement I should avoid. He is obviously free to make his statement, but based on the interactions I've had with him I only expect it to be full of ad hominem attacks against me and be completely misinformed about everything that I have done, simply because I would not allow him to act against consensus and let there be some weird tables about academics on sports pages.—] (]) 22:37, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:I have no energy to deal with this user. I will not awknowledge his existence any further. Goodbye Ryulong. We will no longer be engaged in any form of conversation. ] (]) 22:47, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	:I have indefinitely blocked the acknowledged sockpuppet account and I have reset the 14 day block to expire 14 days after the last time he edited using the sockpuppet. I leave the community open to taking further action against DMB112 or any other party involved in the dispute. ] (]) 23:11, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
	::{{uninvolvededitor}} Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't an indef-block on DMB112 as well, but it is what it is. '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 01:03, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	:::If that's what the community wants, I'm happy to do that. I'm mindful that prior to the previous block against DMB112, he had a clean block log and no history of sockpuppetry, the severity of the edit warring warranting a lengthy 14 day block. ] (]) 01:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	==Apparent Battleground/POV editing==
	{{userlinks|MilesMoney}}
	This user, who began editing in July 2013 has shown a consistent pattern of ] on articles about U.S. conservative individuals. He puts in contentious short additions that connect individuals with extremism or perceived extremism, often without sources, then provides lengthy argument on talk pages often spilling into noticeboards, long after it is apparent that he has failed to obtain consensus.
	An example is trying to link Murray Rothbard to holocaust denial, "evolution denialism", and falsely claiming that he endorsed a political campaign by former KKK leader David Duke. (See ], ] and ].)
	He added ], which is a ] to ], although the source used does not call her far right or right-wing for that matter. The term far right normally refers to neo-fascist, neo-nazi or similar groups. Most of the ] is now devoted to a discussiion about that.
	MilesMoney's battleground attitude is evident by his comment, when he moved a discussion thread from AN to ANI: "wrong drama page." He also uses frequent ], such as accusing other editors of ] and tag-teaming.
	In his six months here, he has been banned from the article ] and blocked 48 hours for wikistalking ]. I therefore request the following:
	#a community ban,
	#a topic ban from U.S. libertarian articles, and
	#a ban on editing biographies of living persons.
	] (]) 02:56, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' the topic ban on libertarian articles, as I have in the past. '''Oppose''' the other bans. In the matter of Pamela Geller, it's clear to me that MM is far from the only problem. There are half a dozen editors there guilty of behavior ranging from tendentious editing to battleground mentality to personal attacks directed at MM. There are abundance of sources describing Geller as "right" and even "far right", including the newspaper ''The Guardian'', and yet there are editors there instead arguing with a straight face that the US' most famous anti-Islamic blogger is not a right-winger but instead a liberal. To pin all of this on MM would be both inaccurate and also encourage and embolden this behavior. ] <small>(])</small> 03:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' As a quick note, the 48 hour block started about 3 hours ago so someone will need to copy MilesMoney's comment here (or alternatively they will need to be unblocked solely to participate in this discussion). ] (]) 03:26, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

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User:Jaozinhoanaozinho and persistant WP:SYNTH, WP:PROFRINGE, and WP:GNG-failing articles

This section has been stale for a few days and was at the top of ANI (i.e. the oldest un-archived post) and about to be automatically archived without action. I find consensus for an indefinite (not infinite, you may appeal your restriction at WP:AN if you can create some articles through AfC that demonstrate a better understanding of the policies) ban from creating articles in main space against User:Jaozinhoanaozinho. They may only create articles using the AfC process. This editing restriction will be logged at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Misplaced Pages community. MolecularPilot 03:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Jaozinhoanaozinho has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH seems to be lacking substantially.

• Danish expedition to North America was deleted for WP:PROFRINGE

• Da Serra–American conflict on WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH grounds

• Portuguese Newfoundland on WP:PROFRINGE and WP:OR

• They've been warned about creating hoax articles and continued doing so.

• Warned for copyright issues which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in Potato Revolt)

• Plenty of articles containing only one source Siege of Campar, Battle of Cape Coast (1562), Battle of Lucanzo (1590), Portudal–Joal Massacre, Battle of the Gambia River (1570), Battle of Mugenga

Most recently there's Battle of Naband, which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.

Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. I tried bringing this up with them but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to WP:WIKIHOUND someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a WP:PROFRINGE article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. Doug Weller talk 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I checked this Battle of Naband which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? scope_creep 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Late addendum, but it looks like the user in question was tagged by a research team on their talk page as possibly using AI to edit, which would track with the article writing vs content quality if it's the case. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

AI detection methods are so faulty that I’m 100% willing to accept this as truth. Sorry about that. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:

• 1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "Theory of the Portuguese discovery of Australia," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
• 2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
• 3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
• 4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
• 5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
• 6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
• 7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.

Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts". Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.

I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between WP:WIKIHOUNDING and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.

I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.

Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails WP:GNG doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass WP:GNG and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example

A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".

I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have WP:SYNTH issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass WP:GNG before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that is in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. Black Kite (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the original research policy. I propose and support a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating WP:OR, they gain that necessary understanding/competence. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• SUPPORT ban from article creation. Doug Weller talk 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. scope_creep 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support article creation ban. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. Barbary–Portuguese conflicts. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hello, I think the issue might have been with the article describing the events as "course of hostilities" which could make it seem like it was a continuous conflict. I've fixed that to make it clear now. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:SOCK. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support Ban. Sr. Blud (talk) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with Gaming the system. Sr. Blud (talk) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored. I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! Sr. Blud (talk) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) I dunno. Sr. Blud (talk) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Battle of Lucanzo (1590). There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. scope_creep 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment This is editor is still creating dog poor articles Cult Member. This is the second in days thats been speedied. scope_creep 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. Doug Weller talk 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Me (DragonofBatley)

It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save @KJP1: the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Notifying other editors from the wider discussions @PamD:, @Noswall59:, @Rupples:, @Crouch, Swale:, @KeithD:, @SchroCat:, @Tryptofish:, @Cremastra: and @Voice of Clam:. If I missed anyone else sorry DragonofBatley (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity. Schazjmd (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Also this discussion: Special:PermanentLink/1269282704#Dragon. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. I'm glad to see that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.

I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. WP:JAN25 is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, then we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.

I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to draft articles in userspace and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.

Happy editing, Cremastra (u — c) 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as User:DragonofBatley/Interesting topics list. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

These are good points.

However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI-like thing may be in order. WP:Failed verification cleanup project, anyone? Cremastra (u — c) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add DragonofBatley (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC DragonofBatley (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- asilvering (talk) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• DragonofBatley has agreed to a voluntary editing restriction to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- asilvering (talk) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will DragonofBatley (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• @DragonofBatley: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? voorts (talk/contributions) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for All Saints Church, Wellington. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see any new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - SchroCat (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) KJP1 has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - SchroCat (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you All Saints Church, Wellington. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's a great point, you're right, @SchroCat. Schazjmd (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I responded to @Voorts earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with WP:Geoland WP:Notability and WP:Sourcing. Also conflict edit was not directed at @SchroCat, there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's All Saints Church, Wellington was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from Listed buildings in Wellington, Shropshire and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.

  And Dragon's version as submitted to AfC also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. PamD 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The issues are Verifiability and source integrity; Notability; and the suggestion of Sockpuppetry while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.

Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, Talk:All Saints Church, Wellington, which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises Competency issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.

That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. KJP1 (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. Rupples (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @Rupples or @Voorts. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @Schazjmd and @SchroCat's earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. DragonofBatley (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the WP:V and WP:N concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).

As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.

There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.

Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.

For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, this needs to be a final warning in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -Noswall59 (talk) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —Noswall59 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).

(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at User talk:DragonofBatley.) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked. PamD stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular Crouch, Swale. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (their talk page in July 2023). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point WP:CIR has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)

• Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: 'Woods Bank is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with Dragon's work on it: he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
• Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content here calling it "irrelevant". At User talk:KJP1, PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article St Peter and St Paul Church, Caistor, as he left it, cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, All Saints Church, Wellington, the entire Architecture section was added by other(s). However, their church articles always contain something like The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings. sourced to achurchnearyou.com, often as a separate "Present day" section. DragonofBatley's version of All Saints' Church, Batley (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs. (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing St Augustine of Canterbury, Rugeley and St Augustine's Church, Rugeley, both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.)
• Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as here, was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
• Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.

There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note Liz has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that Woods Bank instance (at the end of this edit, which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. Cremastra (u — c) 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like to point to WP:Zeroth law of Misplaced Pages: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).

I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at User_talk:KJP1#Dragon and Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity, and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked.

I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.

Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for Chew Stoke, which is also the example of a lead in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.

Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - removing a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and taking an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.

The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, All Saints Church, Wellington (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).

It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.

Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. PamD 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work

I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I've got some experience of CCI investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the 400-odd articles that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. KJP1 (talk) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).

To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there DragonofBatley (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

voorts - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. Sound of evil laughter.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

How's this draft proposal: DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace, converting redirects to articles, or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects.

Having seen Dragon's work on Holme Lacy yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing.

And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. PamD 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. KJP1 (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: Adding an infobox? Adding a few words about local authority area? Adding a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. PamD 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to Trafford, never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. PamD 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the question PamD. To clarify, I meant any expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing anywhere on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " PamD 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay, looks good. @KJP1 what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? Cremastra (u — c) 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Cremastra - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Hold on. This goes much further than @Voorts wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? Rupples (talk) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at Trafford. I've lost patience. PamD 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:

1. No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects
2. No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?)
3. No editing in mainspace.

PamD 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):

Option A: DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.

Option B: DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded.

Option C: DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.

The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but would personally favour Option B. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into Trafford, a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@KJP1: I made some changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

p.s. Trafford this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. KJP1 (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? Rupples (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. KJP1 (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree. Rupples (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@KJP1 and @Rupples: option C amended below. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? PamD 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s)

Proposal jumped the gun, no consensus.

DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s): Option A: DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC. Option B: DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to oppose a PROD. Option C: DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except: (1) to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded; (2) to comment in AfD discussions or to oppose PRODs or CSDs regarding those articles; or (3) to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles. The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) Uninvolved editors Oppose all. I would have voted Option B, but the user demonstated enough maturity and self-criticism, meaning he's willing to improve his long-term contribution. Moreover, even if it could have been embarrassing to admit, he also cared enough to inform us he's on the spectrum, and as a neurodivergent myself, I know that's hard. My two cents go to DragonofBatley. You're welcome! Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC) Proposal: Could we maybe allow DoB to continue editing mainspace if, and only if, any additions/edits they make are supported by a reference, to which the quote that supports the edit must be added. That will make it easier for us to double check their work and allow DoB to refine their skills in supporting their edits.Boynamedsue (talk) 10:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) Involved editors @KJP1, Cremastra, Rupples, PamD, DragonofBatley, Crouch, Swale, SchroCat, Tryptofish, and Noswall59. (Apologies if I missed anyone.) voorts (talk/contributions) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC) Support option A as proposed for 6 months. I think its quite clear that that is needed given as noted the burden this might have on AFC but I'm willing to consider allowing some AFC say 1 article a week but I think it might be better to wait until the cleanup has been done the they have demonstrated the ability to create suitable articles. I would say it would be fine for DragonofBatley to ask KJP1 or Cremastra or another experienced user (if they explain their restrictions) to move drafts they have created to mainspace but I would not suggest they do that until the cleanup has been completed. I would also support option B I would consider allowing an appeal of only 2 or 3 months as this restriction is much more restrictive but I think given as noted by PamD their problems with editing existing articles this might well be helpful especially since if they can't create new articles I'd expect a shift towards the problems with existing articles. Oppose option C as (1) I'm not aware of problems outside mainspace and (2) I think in any case this would be too restrictive at least for 6 months, if C is done I'd at least support allowing appeal after 2 or 3 months. So in summary I think option B plus 1 article through AFC every week or every other week would be the best option but I don't have a strong opinion. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) Oppose all, as written. Sorry, this has changed from what I could support. First, in the draft version that I suggested, I had the word "successfully" in the sentence that mentions KJP1 and Cremastra: "only if DragonofBatley successfully participates...". That's important. The coordinators will need to evaluate whether or not he "got the message", not just whether he made some token effort, and their evaluation needs to have a meaningful role in the consideration of an appeal. I definitely cannot support A, because I think his mainspace editing needs to be restricted to fixing his mistakes. Anything less does not comport with the facts as we have them. As for B and C, I agree with participation in AfD, but that's in project space, not mainspace. I think objecting to PRODs or CSDs is not worth allowing. C comes closest to how I feel, but I don't feel that we need to make formal restrictions of his editing outside of mainspace. He should be able to communicate on his talk page and user page, without being restricted, and he should probably be able to comment on talk pages of articles. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC) C if anything. (Again, wasn't pinged, but I have been a bit involved.) DragonofBatley keeps demonstrating borderline lack of competence. Most recently inserting one of his collages into an FA (I'd forgotten he also added collages) and getting the captions wrong. The clarity and correctness of the posting here is also at or below the standard we should expect for a participant in a writing project: If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I don't trust their judgement on what is an improvement to an article; and how far should we stretch to try to accommodate someone who needs so many curbs and guiderails? I deeply appreciate the willingness of other editors to help them with the task of cleaning up their articles (as well as all the time and effort some editors have already expended trying to advise and help them); I recognise that there are legitimately differing views on some of what they like to do, such as the collages; but I'd rather see them restricted to their user talk and user space, workshopping the article fixes there. (Note: Several of the 400 or so articles have already been fixed, like the churches I worked on. The task is less massive than it may seem.) Yngvadottir (talk) 03:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC) Prefer the less stringent option A because I’d like to see self-motivation from DragonofBatley to assist with the clean-up. OK with adding "successfully" to the option. It is disappointing that Dragon has recently made errors on Trafford, all the more so it being a featured article, and it did lead me to consider supporting a ‘tougher’ restriction. Whatever is decided, it would be unreasonable for Dragon to be bombarded with too many queries over a short space of time; in particular, AfD nominations should be staggered. Dragon’s articles are on encyclopedic topics; though it looks a fair few will be merged or redirected because of marginal notability. After a very brief review, it seems the use of erroneous citations is mostly a recent phenomenon (last three months or so). Note the increased pace of Dragon’s article creation from September 2024. Rupples (talk) 12:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) That's interesting, even though they have been using this account since March 2020 over half of their articles are less than 6 months old, I'd consider only reviewing those less than 6 months old (at least for now) as those older have likely been improved but I guess there's no harm and might well be best. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) "Oppose further restrictions such as editing articles, workspace and general edits". I have no issues with proposals but I would oppose being restricted from making general edits such as updating infoboxs like I did with Holme Lacy and Dawley Town Hall. I updated them with photos and infoboxs. Yeah I made a couple of questionable edits on Holme Lacy but that article needed some updating since it was slightly written with some questionable wording like it calling Holme Lacy a town which it never has been but flew under editors radars for decades. I also added new collages to spruce up the infoboxs a bit. Especially with some of tw towns in Telford and boroughs of Greater Manchester. Also just because an article in 2008 got FA status doesn't make it protected from edits. I added a collage, hardly a throw away from my edits back on Skegness. Where I challenged old information from an old census database. I have agreed already about the articles and to look at my created ones. I even added a couple of sources to Hollyhurst, Telford and participated in its nomation. So i am taking note but I also have other things going on. So my edits or acknowledging of them maybe a bit later than others. DragonofBatley (talk) 03:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC) It concerns me greatly that while there is a discussion about your future at ANI you are still making a large number of very questionable edits. I still have half a mind to say this is too much trouble and go for a block, but as you’re ignoring WP:ROPE, I’m not sure that point won’t be too far off. - SchroCat (talk) 03:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) @SchroCat at this point. I can see you do not like me. I can see this from both your wording of "sub-standard crap" and "go for a ban". Some choice wording and actions. I've already answered enough but your clearly made up your mind. Nothing else will convince you. Perhaps you should not engage further with me at this point. Cause nothing I say or do seems to provide enough evidence to quell your subtle dislike of me. Prehaps you should just let the other editors handle it. Im not gonna apologise further and try to change your opinion of me. I wont reply further to you at this point. Your wording is coming across as aggressive and threating to me. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC) Absolute nonsense. I neither like nor dislike you. I have major concerns over your ability to edit and I stand by my judgement of your output. I have further concerns over your decision to create category pages and work on categories while the thread was going on rather than start clearing up the mess you’ve made. All you’ve done is provide more evidence that you lack the ability to edit within the guidelines. Again, this is nothing to do with liking or not liking you as an individual (I’m entirely ambivalent about you) but it is about your output and the additional time and effort you are making others go through to tidy up the mess you’ve made. SchroCat (talk) 18:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC) Okay thanks for clarification. I understand your position better now. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

• I think I would be happier if:

1. there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400).
2. I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB prove to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't see why we need to restrict userspace editing. This would allow them to create pages that would help show that they can create suitable articles. If there are later problems then it can be added but otherwise poor quality drafts in userspace are generally harmless. Is there evidence of problems here? Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Because at the moment there are at least a couple of hundred articles that are sub-standard crap and getting him to focus on cleaning those up is important (rather than leave them for everyone else to tidy up while yet more rubbish is churned out in userspace). A temporary hold on article creation in userspace is no great loss to them and will save a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted. - SchroCat (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 19#Category:Civil parishes in Telford and Wrekin. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). PamD 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• @KJP1 and Cremastra: Another element for the cleanup project: where an article has been created at a disambiguated title, it should be added to the relevant dab page (or a hatnote made from base title). Dragon hasn't been in the habit of doing so.|  – Preceding unsigned comment added by PamD (talk • contribs) 19:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• I'd be happier if everyone would wait to get all of these details worked out, before posting and !voting on new proposals. At this rate, we are chasing our tails, with new proposals coming out as soon as someone objects to something, and then there's an objection to the objection. This is frustrating, and not getting us anywhere. And instead of !voting on how stringent the restrictions need to be, let's try to get consensus on how stringent they need to be.

Some editors are still saying that we can be fairly loose with how Dragon can edit in mainspace. Personally, I feel like all the evidence I've seen points against that, and I hope that those editors will come around to changing their minds. We have a ton of evidence of edits that cause harm in mainspace, in our reader-facing content, and it's more important, I think, to get that under control, than to hope for the best based on Dragon's enthusiasm for editing. Anyone who disagrees with that, please provide evidence to support your view.

I also see some arguments that it is, supposedly, unfair to have too many AfDs going at one time. I'm not buying that. We cannot restrict other editors from filing more AfDs. If there's a community consensus to delete, then that should be that. Again, what stays in mainspace, or doesn't, matters more than giving some special consideration that would outweigh consensus.

I think it's getting clear that we also need to restrict him from editing category space, and that the supervised cleanup needs to be deemed "successful". As for userspace, I agree with restricting against new content creation in userspace (essentially: no userspace drafts, as well as no AfC drafts), but I think other uses of userspace, including user talk, and using the space as a sort of scratchpad for the supervised cleanup, should be permitted. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• The user demonstated enough maturity and will to take criticism and improve. Yes, him being neurodivergent makes that harder to accomplish, but he just wants to contribute; stop killing his enthusiasm and help him improve instead. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – WP:CIR and WP:NOTTHERAPY also apply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Tryptofish: I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the intermittent explosive disorder. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance). – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for those very constructive thoughts. I appreciate what you are saying. I know KJP1 very well, and I have high confidence in both him and Cremastra to provide exactly the kind of guidance you recommend. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Est. 2021 He's had quite a lot of both time and guidance already. PamD 10:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• I'd agree the debate is getting a bit lost in the weeds. Are there not basically two views? I think there is agreement that we don't currently want new articles being created, either directly or through AfC, until clear evidence of improvement, gained through engagement in reviewing the 400+ already created, is presented at appeal. Some think that is sufficient, and editing in mainspace should otherwise be permitted, while others favour limiting editing in mainspace to the 400+, and to any related discussions, with others editors involved in clean-up/at AfD/etc. If that is the main point of difference, my suggestion would be that we err on the side of leniency and allow other editing in mainspace. If that proves problematic, we can always come back here. I think there is great benefit in reaching agreement, and enabling Cremastra, myself and others to begin working with DragonofBatley on reviewing the 400+. That will enable them to demonstrate their commitment, give solid evidence as to their ability to learn and to improve their editing, and clean-up the articles for the benefit of readers. KJP1 (talk) 07:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
  • That’s a good summary of how I see things too. If leniency is the path, I think we’ll be back here soon. Recent editing while this thread has been going on shows a lot of new problems being created but no progress on the clean up. I think we’re likely to see as many problems being created as are being sorted, but I’ll bow to the consensus if it goes that way. SchroCat (talk) 07:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  @KJP1, I have started to engage with your sandbox you tagged me. I can see some already noted and some already seeing afd afm and redirect. I think you'd be better off tagging me more for articles needing a clean up desperately than ones being afd and confirmed as notable. Ill engage with that sandbox as its on my Watchlist and make necessary changes where needed. Not off a whim since your going back to the start of my time on this site. It'll offload my workload and help with afd and afm to discuss deletion or merging. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too Sensory overload for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. KJP1 (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I, too, would like to move this towards a decision. It seems to me that the sticking point is over differing views about whether DoB should be placed under strict restrictions about editing, in order to control a history of negative effects upon our reader-facing content, or whether to allow DoB a greater amount of leeway in editing, based on his sincere desire to be a good contributor and consideration of his self-described status as neurodivergent. I think we need to go one way or the other on this, and once we do that, we can get to consensus. There's little point in editors repeating what we have already said, and going back and forth over that. I think we should look at the evidence we have, and seek a consensus – not unanimous consent, but WP:CONSENSUS. And nobody here is coming from a position of personal dislike of DoB, or wanting to get rid of DoB. We wouldn't be working so hard on crafting this, if that were the case.

The editors, including me, who favor strict restrictions have provided a significant amount of evidence, based on edit history and continuing edits, to support that view. In my opinion, editors who oppose those restrictions are acting more out of a feeling, rather than based upon the actual characteristics of mainspace edits. At least, that's my opinion. I've been thinking hard about this, and it seems to me that stricter restrictions would provide DoB with structure while working to correct past mistakes and move forward into good editing status. And I believe structure to be A Good Thing. A lack of structure would actually make things more difficult. Structure (just until such time as the restrictions can be lifted) would be helpful. I really hope that we can agree on that. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I encouraged KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm ND and lurking so I'm chime in.

I was thinking of a short period of being restricted to fixing their articles (perhaps with a specific mentor) before being allowed more freedom to generally edit, then any other restrictions can be lifted over time?

They've admitted that they have issues with sensory overload already, so having a tight focus on exact tasks with goals to aim for could be really helpful in this case. It will also ensure that the affected articles aren't left by the wayside, as there are so many of them.

Having a visual list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed will also be a good motivator and incentive - another useful tool for ND editors.

TLDR: I think we should aim for structure & focus on specific, clear tasks, with incentives for reaching certain goals. The best way to do this would be to restrict to fixing the articles then gradually expand the scope of editing over time. Blue Sonnet (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@Blue-Sonnet list of the articles, which is regularly updated to show which ones have been fixed there's User:KJP1/sandbox10-DoB. Cremastra (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@Cremastra Yes, exactly that, I noticed there was a list earlier! That'll be really useful for them going forwards, so I think that set goals based on that list will be really helpful & also help to rebuild trust and editing experience overall. Something like allowing typo correction on general articles after 25 have been fixed, citation checking at 50, AFC/AFD discussions at 50% complete? I've completely made those goals up but they're just an example of what I'm thinking of & they should be chosen by/discussed with @DragonofBatley - hopefully it's a feasible suggestion! Blue Sonnet (talk) 22:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not going to be a lot of fun and I'm sure that they are operating entirely out of good faith, but often ND brains don't care about our intent - when it's a problematic area or particularly complex, we have to be strict with ourselves to make sure we can actually get things done. If it won't cause problems I'd like to help if I can, I mainly gnome but I figure some help is better than none? I could also help with advice or support as a fellow ND editor. Blue Sonnet (talk) 22:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles

Citation bot keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on User talk:Citation bot#Incorrect reference dates, however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.

Diffs:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legend of 14 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. E_F 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. E_F 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

You can add this to the page in question – {{bots|deny=Citation bot}} – or you can add this to a specific citation – {{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}} – to keep the bot away. See -- Stopping the bot from editing. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that Citation bot did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on Ludlow Massacre, see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a diff. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is not a user script, but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078

"All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."

-WP:Bot policy Legend of 14 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the person who is using the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Most of these seem to have been invoked by Abductive, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493

Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.

These edits were suggested by the following user:

• User:Whoop whoop pull up

Legend of 14 (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by User:Abductive

Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)

Suggested by user:

• User:Abductive

Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates Legend of 14 (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It is still about Citation bot. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by User:Spinixster. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You have given the operators less than one day to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? Legend of 14 (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can see here the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."

-WP:Bot policy

WP:Citing sources is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you quote the part of WP:RS which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. this diff? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about your use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOTACC specifically says The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account. Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot. E_F 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to WP:ASPERSIONS to me... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.

As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) moved down from the middle of the above comment (original diff). – 2804:F1...CF:5599 (::/32) (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right?? Isaidnoway (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Unsupervised bot and script use has damaged thousands of articles. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix 2022 deaths in the United States (July–December).... XOR'easter (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

We're into the second batch of ReferenceExpander edits to check and clean up. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. XOR'easter (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to Whoop whoop pull up two weeks ago (read here) about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed me to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have continued to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at User talk:Whoop whoop pull up § Checking IABot runs.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. Both should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here neither. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOTP is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.

• Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
  • WP:BOTACC says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
  • BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of WP:ROLE. Now, ROLE does have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple managers", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're developed and maintained by a team of people (rather than ones that can be used by multiple people).
  • Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to 50,000 pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the only people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they were, in fact, approved implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
  • WP:BOTCOMM seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
  • WP:BOTREQUIRE says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
  • WP:BOTCONFIG provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
• Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
  • WP:BOTMULTIOP says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved despite the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).

Whoop whoop pull up 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.

"Both should take reponsibility"

-Phil Bridger at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 Legend of 14 (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.

Policy is very clear, don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. XOR'easter (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Or, as the same page quoted above puts it: Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked. XOR'easter (talk) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot has not been approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at User:Citation bot § Bot approval. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. Folly Mox (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

☝🏽It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against Abductive or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion somewhere specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping AManWithNoPlan, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. Folly Mox (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots and checking the results.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, Folly Mox (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots" Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. CNC (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 Folly Mox (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Is there anything left here to discuss? Liz 03:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. Legend of 14 (talk) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Why is that example wrong? The source code of the webpage says "datePublished":"2023-02-25T18:46:42+00:00",.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Because the webpage made unknown modifications after that date. "<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2023-09-04T22:23:52+00:00" />" view-source:https://worldribus.org/east-antarctica-ranges/. Legend of 14 (talk) 04:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  If a news article had a modified date, for example created on January 1 but maybe a correction was made on Jan 3, then you would want the date shown to be Jan 1 because that is how articles are cited (and later found). How is a bot supposed to know you might want the modified date instead of the creation date?   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  1. Not a news article.

  2. Intention is irrelevant. These edits are disruptive regardless.

  3. Maybe program it to not add dates to modified works. Legend of 14 (talk) 04:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

User:PEPSI697 bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools

• PEPSI697 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.

My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) a message for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person made a discussion on the talk page about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me this message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I didn't understand what exactly was the issue, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I wish him merry Christmas, he wishes me, everything is fine.

Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is hounding my edits. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor (Augmented Seventh): 1, 2, 3. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.

I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi replaced my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential talk page guideline violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to seek clarification as to why they did this on their talk page. In their response to me, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me this message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see this edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me this message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. This edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.

I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - here they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when he has gotten the same message twice for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of reverting edits without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. jolielover♥talk 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and assume good faith, you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. jolielover♥talk 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. Here, for example, they say: Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. . You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. C F A 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. (1, 2, 3, 4 5, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). jolielover♥talk 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Seeing no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. Simonm223 (talk) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments demanding that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. jolielover♥talk 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. C F A 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.

@Jolielover: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are obvious vandalism.

Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you will stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you might stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. jolielover♥talk 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @PEPSI697: A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page here, here and here. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at WP:YOUNG and WP:REALWORLD because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on your user talk page that you get stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been previously been warned about. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you sometimes don't understand what some words mean, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future

I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day.

1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content.

2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one.

3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly?

Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool.

2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection.

3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. jolielover♥talk 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I accept your apology. jolielover♥talk 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Response and apology from PEPSI697

The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the WP:PRIMER or looking at the task center? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.

Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. NewBorders (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

There is guidance on how to use the {{Talk header}} found on its documentation page at Template:Talk header#Should this be added to every talk page? and also at WP:TALKLEAD. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in WP:CONTRIBUTE and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like WP:GUILD, WP:DEORPHAN, WP:HELPWP, WP:URA, WP:RANPP for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at WP:RAILWAY or WP:STATIONS. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with Bell railway station, Melbourne, but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get Preston railway station, Melbourne article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps an administrator could close this discussion and all its related sub-discussions now that the OP and PEPSI697 seem to have amicably resolved their issue. Maybe all that's needed here is a firm warning to PEPSI697 to try to be careful in the future, and perhaps some encouragement to try not to over use these tools if doing so risks placing them in high-stress situations where they might lose their cool, with a reminder that the community might be less understanding the next time around if they end up back at ANI for doing something similar. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Good idea there. I agree that me, Jolielover and the others involved resolved this issue. I absolutely agree with this idea to give a firm warning on my talk page. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 08:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you absolutely agree with isn't really all that relevant to what the community ultimately decides to do, and continuing to post here only runs the risk of you somehow making your situation worse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok, sorry. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Non-neutral paid editor

@EMsmile is heavily editing Solar_radiation_modification in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. Andrewjlockley (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:

• Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
• Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
• - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
• Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.

An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably WP:NOTHERE. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. Simonm223 (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

done Andrewjlockley (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Simonm223: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly WP:GF reasons for them.

1. By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as "has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world" and "The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality" + "The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"? Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate WP:NOTNEWS and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a very strong statement cited to...an obscure book, seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
2. Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally WP:RECENT, and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. If that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, then it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
3. Do you really think phrases like "China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments." are consistent with WP:NPOV? Really? Maybe cutting all of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
4. That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently an internal publication of the Central Bank of Hungary. It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.

In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably WP:NOTHERE" seems downright Kafkaesque. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like Climate change, you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't bad by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply not good enough or relevant enough for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.

Given this context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not obligated to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @EMsmile's paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @Andrewjlockley provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/

My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. TERSEYES (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Adding: Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 TERSEYES (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• An editor with a declared COI should never be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the strongly discouraged wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --Aquillion (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Aquillion So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this (Redacted)?

  Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that if Earth System Governance is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering is not even seen anywhere on their front page - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as Research Framework. The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban) - that would be wrong. See WP:SELFCITE; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we want editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS Having a perspective on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. WP:PAID editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then WP:COI needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.

It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's not the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change strongly discouraged to prohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism). I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though.

Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be manually saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests - but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I need to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to this case, rather than a general statement.

Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this Uh, guys? Does WP:OUTING mean nothing to you? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the principles of privacy still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. TiggerJay (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Could we get an edit to WP:OUTTING for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG back to Andrewjlockley

I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. However, that does not change the fact she has been one of a literal handful of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in WikiProject: Climate change over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.

With that in mind, I would like to say I have great difficulty assuming WP:GF here - not when the OP editor (Redacted), which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective and when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.

I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report, the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of Chapter 16 of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.

P.S. This is really not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

See WP:BOOMERANG... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.

All of this is pertinent. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that EMSmile has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that Andrewjlockley is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. WP:OUTING concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.

The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If InformationToKnowledge is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be they both should be though.

Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. TiggerJay (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Please reread WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS. The suggestion that being a published academic on a subject constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of WP:EXTERNALREL, which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

as per (Redacted) is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.

Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to WP:SELFCITE. Simonm223 (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.

If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for WP:COI that arises as a result.
• With regards to SRM has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the version of 15 May 2024). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
• AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for more SRM research in their day job (Redacted). Also, User:Thisredrock explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be against doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
• I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by User:Thisredrock on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
• Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). EMsmile (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery orDARVO, but I'll respond anyway.

I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.

Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way Andrewjlockley (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I wish to clarify the relationship between the Earth System Governance project (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the campaign for a 'Non-use Agreement' (NUA) on solar radiation modification (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.

Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was the founder of ESG and its first chair, for ten years, and is the editor in chief of its journall. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is a member of ESG's 11-member leadership board , one of five authors of its current implementation plan , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of ESG's series of short books. By quick count, of the other 14 authors on the NUA's founding paper, one other is on the governing board, at least eight are lead faculty, at least two are senior research fellows, and one is among the journal's six editors.

In the other direction, of ESG's 11-member governing board, eight have signed the NUA sign-on statement.

The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. TERSEYES (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@TERSEYES, would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? TiggerJay (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.

For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an oversight on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? jp×g🗯️ 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  ... gonna ask in talk page of WP:OUTTING if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  The Bushranger, I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. Liz 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Liz: the diff of them placing it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is here - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named User:Johnjacobjingleheimer, then it constitutes WP:OUTING (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. jp×g🗯️ 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? jp×g🗯️ 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at WP:OUTTING think it would be easier to avoid.

  opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases.

  alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on their admission of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant WP:HARASSMENT and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't WP:OUTING people or contacting their employers. CaptainEek ⚓ 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  @CaptainEek I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding.

  Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts.

  BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point,

  the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous.

  AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  I also wanted to question this block. I'm not familiar with all the applicable[REDACTED] rules and conventions, but if I found out that eg the Heritage Foundation had been paying a contractor to edit the climate change page, I would hope that editors would 1) question the contractor and their edits, and 2) separately write to the Heritage Foundation to ask what they were up to. The latter wouldn't qualify as harassment in my book, just a sensible response to a legitimate concern about the integrity of wikipedia.

  Fwiw I also don't think that EMsmile should be blocked because ultimately we don't know whether they were paid by ESG to push the ideological line of the NUA campaign. Given their long history as an editor, and the fact they conduct themselves with courtesy and decency, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Thisredrock (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Does Wikimedian in Residence apply?

EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit[REDACTED] seems analagous to | wikimedian in residence. See also WP:WIRCOI. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no WP:TEND. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. EMsmile (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

My situation is totally different to @EMsmile. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @EMsmile adjusting the page to favour her client (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the SRM article here. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per WP:DUE.

Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding WP:OUTTING- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.

Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. EMsmile (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. EMsmile (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile

Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. EMsmile is a paid editor who violated WP:OUTING - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight are highly disruptive - and that's notwithstanding the paid editing. Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. Proposal withdrawn. I think I was a bit hasty. Now supporting topic ban below. Simonm223 (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose block, support WP:TROUTing EMS for almost WP:OUTTING, WP:TROUTing AJL for aggressive interactions, warning ITK for WP:OUTTING.- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.

the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically WP:WIRCOI suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

From WP:WIRCOI WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages - this seems not to be the case here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.

want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi appliesBluethricecreamman (talk) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by Bluethricecreamman - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. Thisredrock (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. Bluethricecreamman has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether EMsmile was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. Simonm223 (talk) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see User:EMsmile apologize for the WP:OUTING that occurred. Allan Nonymous (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. EMsmile (talk) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Strong oppose (uninvolved) there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in simple ignorance (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not WP:PUNISH).

That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, it fails a DUCK test, and looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor. What I see is a properly disclosed WP:PAID editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors. Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't WP:CPUSH going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :TiggerJay (talk) 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.

However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for 'potential civil-POV which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like this might come off is overly whitewashing, but China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations. but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does call into need for a closer look, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group

mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Strong support. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, WP:NOTTHEM applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that WP:PAID only strongly discourages paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --Aquillion (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose and IMO unthinkable They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.
  I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Personally, I am much more concerned about undeclared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. North8000 (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. Liz 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet WP:SOCK . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  I meant meat puppet. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Tentative oppose - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. — Rhododendrites \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates with no opinion on indef block at this time.

From what I can see, Earth System Governance looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the COI guideline: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide custom that Wikimedians in Residence do not edit about their institution" (emphasis in the original). Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination:

• August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA.
• Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary.
• Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with WP:PAYTALK , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of WP:TPO.

When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil.

EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page." Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client.

It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I looked at Earth System Governance Project last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics written 73% of the article, in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing.

I added the paragraph below to my comment at around the same time as EMSmile's response below ESG, like many non-profits, probably wants to help Misplaced Pages but needs guidance on our rules. It is very common for non-profits to see Misplaced Pages as a form of social media presence and to want to leverage Misplaced Pages to build their brand. Brand-building is not where the opportunity is on Misplaced Pages. The opportunity is to improve Misplaced Pages articles in the organization's area of expertise using top-quality sources. A best outcome for all this would be for EMSmile to stop the COI edits and then work with ESG to pivot the project in a more productive direction.

Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello User:Clayoquot, we know each other well from working on the same articles as part of WikiProject Climate Change. My client for the project under discussion here is the "Earth System Governance Foundation" (not the project (Earth System Governance Project (which is an alliance), nor the concept earth system governance itself). So when you say that I should "immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder", then who do you mean? Strictly speaking it would be the "Earth System Governance Foundation". They don't have a Misplaced Pages article about themselves, neither do they have a website.

FWIW: If you look at the history of two articles that you mentioned: earth system governance and Earth System Governance Project, then I think you can see that I actually made them a lot better, not worse (compared with their versions from about early July last year). I added better sources and more nuanced content, including criticism and debates. If there are still unsourced, overly promotional statements in there, then this needs to be addressed (probably best on the talk pages or with direct edits of course).

FYI: The Earth System Governance Project is “a global research network that aims to advance knowledge at the interface between global environmental change and governance. The network connects and mobilizes scholars from the social sciences and humanities researching at local and global scales.” It is not an advocacy group. It is not my client nor employer. There is also no official/legal/formal connection between the ESG Foundation and the ESG Project.

If a topic ban was imposed, would such a topic ban for me for Earth System Governance Project apply only to the duration of this particular consultancy or for life? Also a topic ban from earth system governance? Would I still be allowed to propose changes on the talk pages? And would the ban stop when my consultancy stops (likely in a few months), or be there for life?

Just to clarify for those following this ANI: the bulk of my 60 000 edits were done in a volunteer capacity; and a certain proportion (it would be hard to estimate exactly what proportion) was done for different clients (they are mentioned on my profile page). Those clients are all mission-aligned and are not for profits or even corporations. I have no "agenda" that I am pushing. All I want to do is improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles in the area of climate change and sustainable development. A lot of my work is actually just about readability improvements.

Also just to clarify: when I mentioned "personal attacks" in that post that you, Clayoquot, linked to, I wasn't referring to attacks in this thread but I meant AJL's aggressive/confrontational comments on my talk page, and also on the talk page of SRM. It felt like a personal attack when someone writes on my talk page "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down. I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client." EMsmile (talk) 17:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't paid editing or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are directly adding quotes from the project's mission statement, which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact they even use the same website, which states that he Earth System Governance Foundation also serves as legal representative of the Earth System Governance research community. This is hardly what I would call "no official/legal/formal connection". Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

yeah, thats clearly a COI vio. let's report to WP:COI/N, or something else. EMS, it does not matter you made an article better, or are unbiased... COI's destroy the appearance of neutrality. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

did report to WP:COI/N Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It does matter (which doesn't mean I agree that they do make the article better -- that's outside my expertise). Just a point of order: we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive. I understand there are some editors who will say things like "editing with a COI is not allowed", but that's flatly incorrect in policy terms. It's not in the spirit of a Wikipedian-in-Residence program, but if EMsmile claims to be a WiR it's not on their user page or in this thread, as far as I can tell (and being a WiR isn't usually an effective shield anyway -- it's more a signal that someone is knowledgeable and following best practices such as, yes, not editing about the institution that hires you). We're talking about a standard paid editor, not a WiR. If the changes were constructive and transparent, there would be no reason for action. Evidence of editing with a COI isn't relevant to a sanction except where it's not transparent or not constructive, and my understanding of this section is that multiple people take issue with the quality of EMsmile's edits (i.e. edits that fail NPOV, not merely an editor that has a COI; the relevance of highlighting a COI is that we rightly provide little-to-no leeway to COI editors to make content mistakes relevant to their COI). FWIW. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:COI/N put this back into our court. Simonm223 (talk) 13:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose indefinate block as seems excessive given her long history of useful edits. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: Topic ban for EMsmile

I added this heading just now to break up a section that was getting long Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its direct affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project. This is the narrowest scope I can think of that would prevent the kind of disruption we have recently seen from you. I propose this topic ban be indefinite but appealable after 12 months. As you probably know, there's a good chance that you can avoid getting sanctioned if you commit to a voluntary restriction. I do not think at this time that you need to be banned from citing the scholarly works of ESG-affiliated people, however I strongly recommend you be very judicious and selective about the extent to which you do this. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Clayoquot, I think your proposed topic ban is a good solution and way forward ("the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project."). I am happy to make a voluntary commitment to this restriction. I have no experience with such topic bans so I don't know the exact procedure. Do I put this on my profile page? Can you point me to an example where someone else has done this (maybe via my talk page)?

By the way, the paragraph about the non-use agreement that is now (after some discussion) in the section on opposition to SRM research (second last paragraph) is pretty good in my opinion and does not need further changes at this stage (well, except the first sentence is a bit clunky, I already pointed that out on the talk page last week).

SRM is part of the climate change topic complex and is thus, not surprisingly, a topic full of potential for debate and discussion (some people are strongly pushing for it, others are strongly warning about it), so I think further work is still needed and this article will evolve accordingly over time. Hopefully without any ANIs in the future. :-)

I'll make sure I am more careful in future with respect to those grey areas while editing the solar radiation modification article as mentioned above by User:North8000. I could even commit that for the next few months, I don't make any edits to the solar radiation modification article directly but always go through the talk page (taking up the offer that North8000 suggested above: "I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged").

Oh and should the section on my profile page where I explain how I manage any potential COIs that can arise from working for/with clients, need improvement and tightening? Happy to be given advice on this (maybe better on my talk page than here). EMsmile (talk) 22:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

For the topic ban, you can add it to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Voluntary. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about WP:DUE. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being a pioneer in opposing SRM research is sourced... to ETC Group itself). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 23:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

EMsmile, thank you for being flexible on this. Just to make sure you are aware, a topic ban means you may not make any edits related to the topic in question, and this includes edits to talk pages. There is a small set of exemptions. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, the talk pages as well? Fine by me for the talk pages of ESGP and its founder but not for the entirety of the SRM article, I am sorry. I think this would not be justified. It's also a bit impractical. With regards to Chaotic Enby's post above I could stress that there are also secondary sources for the non-use agreement, and that I could provide them on the talk page and then leave it up to others if they want to add them to the article or not.

For background (if this helps, but it should rather be on the talk page of the SRM article, not here): The solar geoengineering non-use agreement is an academic initiative that simply believes SRM is a dangerous technology that should not be further developed, much like nuclear technology in the past and that powerful interests are funding it. That's it. That is why the topic is contentious. EMsmile (talk) 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

As I described above, I believe your edits regarding NUA at Talk:Solar radiation modification violated WP:PAYTALK quite egregiously. Do you disagree?

Posting sources on a talk page is one of the milder forms of advocacy but it is still advocacy. Other editors are capable of finding the sources they want on SRM very quickly, and their searches for those sources will probably be less biased than your searches. I do not think the benefit of you sharing sources outweighs the risk of you using the talk page for COI advocacy. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. I've used the talk page at SRM since middle of last year to reach consensus with other editors in a collaborative manner, like I always do. I tried to make my points in a concise manner, even if I sometimes failed (should make talk past posts shorter in future). Sometimes they might look like a "wall of text" because I copied a paragraph or even a whole section that is under discussion across. Of course there is always room for improvement but to be banned from writing on the talk page of SRM at all is in my opinion excessive.

Please also note that the person who started this ANI originally said that I am doing "PR" for my client. This is not true. I can expand on this further but I think this is a content question, not one about procedures. Perhaps it's better to now let that his be handled in the COI noticeboard thread here?: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250119181200-Earth_System_Governance_Project. As was pointed out above by Rhododendrites: "we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive."

I believe my edits for the solar radiation modification article have been transparent and constructive. The article is in fairly good shape now and does not include any "PR" for a certain "brand" or alike. EMsmile (talk) 09:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Just to be clear, a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates would not stop you from editing the SRM talk page. It would only stop you from editing the SRM talk page on the topic of ESG and its affiliates. And regarding your history on the SRM talk page, I'm sorry I think you just don't get it. The length of your posts there is a symptom of the attitude that you expressed in other ways. You took the position that you, a paid COI editor, get an equal say in the editorial decision-making process. Instead of offering information and then deferring to the judgement of unconflicted editors, you repeatedly asked for the article to be made more favorable to your client. And unless you are topic banned I see no reason to think you will not do it again. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like to know what other editors think of edits like this at SRM and this at Frank Biermann (an article written almost entirely by EMsmile while being paid by ESG). Do the uninvolved people here see these as PR or not PR? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

IMO if it were not for the PE aspect they look like pretty routine factual edits and I wouldn't use the term PR (by it's common meaning) for them. With the declared PE aspect I'd call it where it would be better to discuss and let them be put in by somebody else if they agree. North8000 (talk) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

(involved, as I've had disagreements with EMSmile before). To me, some of this doesn't quite look routine. For instance, using Biermann's website to say he's graduated with distinction (we rarely mention this), or his own website to state he's often used by the press, and namedropping in a highly-viewed article. It's not egregious, but it would raise eyebrows even without the PE aspect. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Femke, I've modified the Frank Biermann article accordingly now (I agree with you; this needed improvement - my bad). And just to explain: I had mentioned Frank Biermann in the SRM article because he played an important role in developing the non-use agreement in the first place, and not because I wanted to "name drop" him (137 pageviews per day for the SRM article in the last year is not exactly "a highly-viewed article"). But I do understand that this could be "eyebrow raising" in the overall context of this COI discussion.

I would be happy to improve the Frank Biermann article further if there are still problematic aspects (or "PR"?) that I have overlooked so far. However, I think it's probably better if I give myself a voluntary restriction for this article and also for the Earth System Governance Project article, as well as the non-use agreement component of the solar radiation modification article. I have just now written about this voluntary restriction on my profile page here. I feel bad for the page watchers and admins that this ANI has gone on for such a long time now. Maybe we could draw it to a close now with this conclusion and voluntary topic ban? (if needed this could be fine-tuned through my talk page rather than through this ANI thread?) EMsmile (talk) 23:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

We are making some progress. Your voluntary restriction, as currently worded, is quite far off from a topic ban or even a mainspace topic ban. A topic ban on the ESGF would stop you from, for example, adding a mention of Biermann or the ESGP to articles like Solar radiation management. You have written about your client in multiple articles that are not in your voluntary restriction.

At the very least - whether or not you have a voluntary restriction - you need to follow the COI guideline. Your comment above suggests that you don't recognize that you should have used a edit request to add Biermann's name to the SRM article. Are you willing to commit to following the entirety of the COI guideline, including the use of edit requests for any non-trivial edits that involve your clients? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 02:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support. I find the voluntary restriction too little too late. I don't think it should be narrowly construed or time-constrained, as some COI remains after a paid position. Some of EMS' additions are egregiously non-neutral, such as adding the following to an infobox "focus=Stimulate a vibrant, pluralistic, and relevant research community for earth system governance" . You still claim on your user page that there is no organisational connection between the ESG Foundation and Project, despite their website stating the opposite, as pointed out 3 days ago. Working with a COI requires community trust, which I don't think exist anymore. I do wonder if this topic ban should be extended to future employers too? I can't find it back, but we have had discussions 3/4 years back already about more subtle COI editing on your part, where you promoted papers from individual scientists unduly, in exchange for them volunteering time to improve Misplaced Pages. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per Femke. jp×g🗯️ 11:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support and will withdraw my proposal above. Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose involuntary, as long as the details on the voluntary get confirmed North8000 (talk) 13:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per Femke. also this discussion has gone too long and is nearly 0.5 WP:TOMATs long. We should end it somehow, and some kinda editting restriction is warranted at this point. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per Femke, while a block is far too much, a topic ban (with or without edit requests) seems more reasonable. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support as proposer and I think extending it to future employers/clients makes sense. Once someone has started work on a project, it can be difficult or impossible to change the client's expectations. It is emotionally hard for the community to contemplate sanctions that affect an individual's current employment, so preventing that kind of situation is best for everyone. EMsmile does relatively well when working for clients who do not expect COI editing. I hope the guidance she is getting here will encourage her to seek those types of projects. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Voluntary restrictions

@EMsmile: Just clarifying

• When the Earth System Governance Project and Frank Biermann "zero editing" restrictions expire a year from now, of course if you were under any relevant PE arrangement all of the rules related to that would be in force.
• Did you say that you were under a relevant PE arrangement on the Solar radiation modification article? If not, please ignore the rest of this. If so, while still under it (until you explicitly say it is over), for the areas not covered by your "zero edit" self-restriction, would you agree to operate in a "doubly safe" mode in the other areas of the article? Until then, ask someone else to put in any edits that are not clearly merely-gnome edits?

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza

• Aubrey Plaza (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Religião, Política e Futebol (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• ZanderAlbatraz1145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Religião, Política e Futebol and ZanderAlbatraz1145 have both been edit warring at Aubrey Plaza over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration.

Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. Kingsif (talk) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. Kingsif (talk) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. Nil Einne (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. Liz 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at Talk:Aubrey Plaza, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

@Sundayclose: Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says, This complaint is not about the content directly. We are not discussing the content you're disputing, but it would be great if you did try to gain some consensus at the article talkpage. Kingsif (talk) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Though I honestly thought I'd waited too long to take further steps to protect a highly-viewed article, fair enough. PP has helped over the weekend: while IMO the history is easy enough to follow in terms of seeing what would have been needed for immediate preventative/protective measures, yes it is a bit more complicated. Full post to follow. Kingsif (talk) 12:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

• There have been numerous edits to the Aubrey Plaza article since 4 January, when it was announced her husband had died, later declared a suicide. Most of the edits revolve around adding this information and how to describe her husband in the rest of the article. Most seem to be well-intentioned, don't all meet best practice for BLP editing, but generally can be resolved with corrective edits.
• Separately, since 29 December, some users have been attempting to add a lot of information about the BLP subject's ethnic background and non-notable extended family.
  • The first edit to add this information was on 29 December by IP 94.63.205.236. This was bot-reverted for the bad source. The same IP reinstated the edit moments later. Diffs:
  • @Sundayclose: Then reverted the edit later that day, again with sourcing concerns. Diff: Sundayclose also warned the IP about BLP, and the IP went dormant.
  • During all the editing on 4 January, another IP, 74.12.250.57, changed some of this info (describing Ashkenazi Jewish as Native American) for probably malicious reasons: - while another, 2600:1000:b107:a865:e028:5f95:de45:c803, removed some of the ethnic background info with a strange edit reason ("Updated"):
  • The article was then confirmed-protected for two days.
  • On 10 January, @Religião, Política e Futebol: made two edits (that for content purposes we will consider as one) to reinstate, and further expand upon, the information on family and ethnic background. Edits:
  • Another IP, 2a00:23c6:ed85:7d01:3d25:a335:96f5:4b40, undid the edits on 10 January, again with sourcing and BLP concerns. Diff:
  • On 14 January, Religião reinstates their version without explanation. Diff:
  • On 15 January, I (Kingsif), undid this with the same source/BLP concerns. I also mention more specifically what could be BLP issues, and recommend using the talkpage to discuss the edit. Diff:
  • Also on 15 January, Religião adds the information back. In their edit reason, they seem to acknowledge the BLP specifics I mentioned but then claim that their content is not an issue. They also say that they don't need to discuss. Diff:
  • On 16 January, I (Kingsif), again remove the information. I address the content and sourcing concerns more forcefully, and the need for discussion. I warn Religião that their behaviour in the circumstances constitutes edit warring. Diff:
  • Also on 16 January, Religião once again added back the content. Their edit reason asked why they can't add personal information on non-notable people: a lack of knowledge of BIO policy, but unwillingness to do anything about that instead of edit-war. Diff:
  • I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
• In regards to the mention of Baena's suicide, this was first added shortly after it was first reported on 4 January.
  • @DiaMali: did much of the immediate updating, including adding and removing this before it was confirmed. Diff:
  • Over the next two days, the mention was removed and reinstated by various other users based on industry sources/lack of confirmation. E.g.: , ,
  • The edit-warring really began on 6 January, when @Ibeaa: removed the mention. At this point, the suicide had been confirmed, and Ibeaa did not provide a reason. Possibly worth noting is that Ibeaa's edit was made the exact minute the article's protection was removed. Diff:
  • On 7 January, IP 2804:d41:cb23:cc00:f4ae:3bc:747e:e196 adds it back. Diff: Also on 7 January, Ibeaa removed it and the reference without explanation. Diff:
  • The next user to re-add the info was @ZanderAlbatraz1145:, who also did not use an edit reason, on 9 January. Diff:
  • The IP 2800:355:9:f9f3:3059:222e:2783:93b8 removed it, without an edit reason, on 11 January. Diff:
  • @Sundayclose: reverted the IP on the same day. Diff:
  • Ibeaa then removed the mention again, also on 11 January. Diff:
  • Zander then adds it back on 13 January, still without a reason. Not massively relevant, but Zander used the deprecated phrasing committed suicide for the first time in this edit, which IP 50.71.82.63 fixed. Diff:
  • Between 13 and the morning (GMT) of 15 January, Zander added and Ibeaa removed the information five times each, no edit reasons in sight.
    • Zander: (above 1), 2, 3, 4, 5
    • Ibeaa: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
  • I (Kingsif) removed it on 15 January, tucked into the BLP edit, to try and stop the pair from edit warring by saying it should also be discussed. I should have probably done them as separate edits. Diff:
  • Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 15 January. Diff:
  • On 16 January, I again removed it as part of the larger edit. I made a clearer separation in this edit reason, to explain that because inclusion is (clearly) contentious, it should be discussed. Diff:
  • Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 16 January. Diff:
  • Ibeaa removes it, without a reason, also on 16 January. Diff:
  • Sundayclose added it back on 16 January, with the explanation that it is accurate and properly sourced. FWIW, while accurate, it was sourced to People magazine, which ten days earlier was not accepted as a suitable source for the same information at the Jeff Baena article. Recently-deceased needs more than a celebrity magazine that actually says "unconfirmed but believed". More pressing, I would expect Sundayclose to have pushed for discussion as the inclusion was clearly contentious. Diff:
  • Ibeaa then removed again on 16 January, with the reason that they didn't know why they were still pursuing the edit war. I would have honestly interpreted that to mean they weren't going to continue, but anyway. Diff:
  • Ibeaa's conduct was already reported here at ANI by Sundayclose, on 17 January, and they were blocked quickly. Archive.
    • I don't know and won't speculate as to why Sundayclose did not also report Zander at this time.
  • After Ibeaa is blocked, Zander continues their side of the edit war on 17 January, still without providing an edit reason. Diff:
  • I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
  • Zander then adds the information back, without starting a discussion, before page protection is applied. They appear to have seen this ANI report, as they included an edit reason. Included in the edit reason is that it didn't seem vital enough to explain themselves, which I can't accept in good faith given they were going back-and-forth directly with Ibeaa and had been told to discuss since the inclusion had proven contentious. Diff:

• Kingsif (talk) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a lot of data. But it seems like if edit-warring is the problem, a complaint filed at WP:ANEW or a request for page protection at WP:RFP would be more suitable than ANI. Liz 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

You know I'm not a massive fan of ANI and would really prefer to dump data and let y'all assess it yourselves, but if this is to be pursued beyond the immediate article protection (as you can see, it seems to be a magnet), then as I see it what we have is: one case of not-too-bad edit warring from Religião, but with quite BIO/BLP sensitive information and a user who has indicated they will not abide if they disagree, and then one case of probably fine content from Zander, but with truly chronic edit warring and the attitude that since the other guy was blocked they're righteous. Both users have been informed of BLP-contentious but the intersection of the actual edit warring with their flippant-at-best attitudes and the particular sensitive area, makes me think that some further addressing (at least asking them to acknowledge the issues) is needed to make sure it doesn't recur. Kingsif (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Death threats by 2.98.176.93

BLOCKED Blocked and TPA revoked, nothing further. (non-admin closure) Heart 07:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

2.98.176.93 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Left a death threat here - diff
Adakiko (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Note: 30 day block by Bbb23 (talk · contribs) Adakiko (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• Death threat left after block. Talk page access? Adakiko (talk) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• TPA removed. Liz 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. Liz 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I think {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. 2600:1011:B331:28FE:1036:B7B1:4292:C997 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

If you use Twinkle, you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. Liz 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Exactly, The Bushranger, thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. Liz 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See WP:UTRS for your options." Cullen328 (talk) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated copyvios by Manannan67

• Manannan67 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Manannan67 has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (2020, 2020, a "final warning" in 2021 from Moneytrees, 2023, 2023), most recently from me, when I discovered a copyright violation they placed on Mariana de Jesús Torres. The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did remove one early warning from the talk page. Dclemens1971 (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to Anglo-Saxon mission which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. Manannan67 (talk) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to Mariana de Jesús Torres. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. Dclemens1971 (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." Manannan67 (talk) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Then I have no idea to what you are referring. As I said, I am not familiar with "Portraits of the Saints", nor do I know from where they got their info. Manannan67 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Naniwoofg

Naniwoofg (talk · contribs) has been the subject of a complaint at Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines#User:Naniwoofg for issues involving images and WP:IDNHT. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint includes refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. Borgenland (talk) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Can we get a follow-up on this? @Naniwoofg has failed to respond to all inquiries on affected article talk pages, their user talk page, and the Tambayan PH talk page. We have been reverting their unexplained and unusual edits to the infoboxes of several Philippine road and building articles back and forth for the past few days. Ganmatthew (talk • contribs) 07:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Support sanctioning this user. One latest questionable edit is on Pulilan article, which I partially fixed. Naniwoofg claimed to had updated the infobox images, but the user used an image of the Pulilan Church before the 2019 renovation. I replaced Naniwoofg's choice of the church image with the one image taken after the renovation. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of viewMisplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion, maybe more)

• Cherkash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see Russo-Ukrainian_War#Background, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4).

The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the Formula_one pages and even had raised the issue here (old link), with no visible actions following.

Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg

They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints.

Other examples can be seen from commons:Special:Contributions/Cherkash, such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: example 1, example 2

The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN International reactions to the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262, United Nations General Assembly resolution A/73/L.47, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4.

I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content. Unas964 (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the User talk page, e.g. about normalising separatist states, and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in the corresponding topic.

I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via de facto statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often replicated by other contributors, which I cannot even comment on. Unas964 (talk) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Here is a link to the last time this was raised here.

The short form: there appears to be a dispute between use of de-facto or de-jure borders. That is why Taiwan comes up. Some editors appear to believe that it is more neutral to either use de facto borders (Taiwan independent, Crimea not part of Ukraine) rather than de jure borders (Taiwan = China, Crimea = Ukraine).

I would suggest, whether de facto or de jurw borders are used the map should be consistent in that usage. I would also suggest that Unas964 (talk · contribs) should adhere to WP:AGF while Cherkash (talk · contribs) needs to start communicating with other editors at least minimally, which will likely ease such assumptions regarding their editing.Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

In any case, what's the alleged misbehaviour here? We can't stop an editor uploading images on commons, nor can we do anything about what is in their categories. We can prevent these images being used in our articles but is the editor actually the one putting them in our articles? Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I am the editor in question. I am Ukrainian. This is not anti Ukrainian, it’s anti nazi. Everything is true and properly sourced. Problems don’t get fixed unless you recognize them. I’ve given specific criticisms about the encyclopedia that are all true and added known contributors. This is not a anti Ukrainian effort and I’m very taken back by this accusation. Clearly nobody here is assuming good faith 2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321 (talk) 17:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that I believe the IP editor above mistakenly posted in this section instead of at the section raised concerning their edits.-- Ponyo 00:18, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Occupation of Crimea is anti nazi? What proper source can prove that? Only Russian propagandists exploit such a narrative. Unas964 (talk) 18:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

UN Resolutions are not Misplaced Pages guidelines. They're not even binding for the countries involved, let alone Misplaced Pages. UN Resolutions do not recognize Taiwan nor Israeli current borders, yet we recognize their independence and their de facto territories in out articles. De jure, there's no Taiwan, and Israel is still at war with Iraq since 1947. De jure, the Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union. Do we care? Misplaced Pages focuses on facts, the de facto state of the world, not bound by temporary laws made by temporary entities which often don't even recognize each other: according to Bhutan, de jure there's no Croatia; according to Greece, there's no Northern Cyprus; according to Serbia, there's no Kosovo; according to the UN, there's no Taiwan... should we follow them? Of course not. You're free to be pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian, as long as you stick to facts. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

My only horse in this race is that Misplaced Pages should be consistent, at least at the level of any given artifact (such as a map), of showing either de jure borders, de facto borders or no borders at all. It is non-neutral to pick and choose de facto for thee, de jure for me. Simonm223 (talk) 14:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

@Simonm223: Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their de facto state. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Taiwan is de facto independent and de jure non-independent so I think you may have the terms backward there. However this speaks to my point - the important thing, from a neutrality position, is to stick to a consistent method of parsing these factual questions. Because, in a lot of these cases, it's not a matter of "facts over anything" but is rather making a positive decision which set of facts to prefer. It is a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine. It is also a fact that Crimea is not presently being administered by Ukraine and is thus de facto not part of that country. If we have a map that chooses to prefer the de jure condition of Crimea as part of Ukraine and then to use the de facto boundary between China and Taiwan this is now non-neutral. It's Misplaced Pages failing to set a consistent standard and instead going based on vibes.

Standards must be consistent. Ideally these standards should be consistent across the project and documented in an MOS. Failing that these standards should be consistent within any given article. Failing that these standards absolutely must be consistent in an indivisible artifact such as a map.

As a corollary it is in favour of Misplaced Pages's neutrality goals to prefer a consistent representation of borders, whether that is de facto, de jure or to not show national borders at all (which remains an option). Now I will note that I didn't see much in the way of talk page discussion or of edit summaries from @Cherkash - which I pointed out as somewhere they could improve in my original comment - but if Cherkash is, in fact, motivated by wanting a consistent standard for depicting national boundaries on a map then @Unas964 has seriously failed to assume good faith by depicting said forwarding of neutrality goals as if it were a hate-motivated attack on Ukraine. Simonm223 (talk) 15:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

@Simonm223: I don't have the terms backward there. I literally stated that De jure, there's no Taiwan, and also what I meant for facts, the de facto state of the world. Please, work on your reading and comprehension skills before making such accusations. Misplaced Pages requires competence. // and no, it is not a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine, as de jure the Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union, as I had already wrote, because de jure the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet didn't have the authority to mandate land exchanges among constituent states, power which they only had de facto. Do better. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Taiwan is not de jure non-independent, de jure inherently requires picking a jure so to speak. It's a ruling from within a legal system, not a natural fact. That said, I agree picking maps with particular borders is not hateful conduct. If there's diffs of something else, it would be helpful to see them. CMD (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

According to that logic, any war crime or mass genocide could be justified by neutrality and Misplaced Pages:AGF. In theory, that does not align with Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT, since neutrality cannot allow for extremist views. Yet considering the replies here, I conclude that there is a consensus on Misplaced Pages that in the Russo-Ukrainian_War the positions of the victim and the aggressor are treated as equal or in favour of the former. Unas964 (talk) 17:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration Unas964 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

This is fast reaching WP:NOTFORUM territory. Simonm223 (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

We also have WP:RUSUKR. Mellk (talk) 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no point in speculating what was legal or not in a totalitarian state, where laws are primarily instruments for maintaining control and suppressing opposition rather than upholding justice (see e.h. here). The soviet/Russian viewpoint on Crimea has the same zero value as the position of Third Reich on the state of Israel. It cannot be attributed to the same weight as of the democratic countries as Ukraine, Israel, the US etc. In the same way, you could justify the Khmer Rouge terror, Tiananmen Square massacre, Holocaust and 9/11 attacks by some de facto laws. Soviet regime murdered tens of millions of people, and the current Russian legal system justifies that: not only Holodomor, the genocide of Crimean Tatars and the other indigenous minorities in Crimea, but in oher regions, as well (as e.g. Asharshylyk). That renders de facto maps a propaganda instrument of a malevolent state, which could not be accepted on any basis of neutrality.

Yet you equalise the positions of tyranical dictatorships and democratic countries while rejecting the UN resolutions. I see this as a violation of Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT and consider not to be taken into discussion at all. Unas964 (talk) 07:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

de facto laws? You're way too confused. de jure (Latin for 'by (some country's) law') is the total opposite of de facto (Latin for 'by facts, in reality'). That's the point. Nice list of stuff tho. Have fun. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 08:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

• I can't help but notice that the editor this complaint is concerned with, Cherkash, hasn't responded and hasn't edited on the project since January 12th and has barely edited in 2025 at all. What was the urgency in posting this complaint right now, Unas964? Liz 03:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  It is urgent as long as there is the ongoing war undermining the Ukrainian territorial integrity. If Misplaced Pages policies (WP:RUSUKR,Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT etc) allow for undermining the legacy of Ukrainian state in favour of the aggressor, which such maps do under some consensus or de facto bodrers pretexts, then indeed it has no sense.

  If not, I shall propose to remove all of those maps in all relevant articles, treating them as tools to normalise the occupation of Crimea. Unas964 (talk) 07:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I'm a bit concerned that Unas964 has committed to continuing to edit in the Russia-Ukraine war CTOP after being informed of the ECR restriction. This includes continuing to argue about the map, calling a warning from another editor regarding WP:CANVAS "pro-Russian attacks." this whole thing at this thread among other diffs that I will leave off as being, you know, quite visible already in this conversation. I am concerned that they have a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality since their edit summary on my attempt to point them to WP:RGW was reverted with an edit summary of pro-Russian spam deleted - very similar to the previous pro-Russian attacks" comment. People are free to clerk their own talk pages as they see fit but to characterize "The encyclopedia, in fact, tries to be neutral regarding global conflicts, cleaving to what reliable sources say about those conflicts but generally making sure to attribute any notable opinions on the conflict to the opinion-holder," as pro-Putin is a bit of an alarming response as is responding to concerns regarding canvassing by accusing the editor of pro-Russian attacks. I am worried that Unas964, as in their interaction with Cherkash that led to this thread, is incapable of assuming good faith and also seems unwilling to comply with ECR restrictions surrounding the war in question. Simonm223 (talk) 13:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  I can confirm that - yes - I consider multiplying warnings and threats to me without any try to search an alternative or copromise a pro-Russian stand. I see no support either, only bullying to preserve the status quo of the pro-Russian view on the matter. Unas964 (talk) 14:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal - short duration block for Unas964

I am not going to ask for an indef here as I don't really want to bite the newbie but this has gone on for long enough. Unas964 is very aware that extended confirmed status is required to edit on the Russia / Ukraine conflict and yet continues not only to do so, but to do so in a way that is highly confrontational, completely fails to WP:AGF and that is replete with WP:NPA violations. They have a severe WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and hasten to accuse anyone who attempts to help them understand concepts such as WP:RGW of being Putinists. I think it's high time that they are demonstrated that such behaviour will have a consequence. A tban is inappropriate because this editor already should not be editing in this CTOP. So that really only leaves us with a block to get their attention and to hopefully stem this disruptive behaviour. Simonm223 (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Support I completely agree with everything Simonm223 mentions. I also want to add that Unas964 doesn't seem to be taking others' rebuttals into account. Instead, he just either brushes them off or completely disregards them, as can be seen in basically this whole thread. Just scroll down and you'll see what I mean. SportscarFan2004 (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Edward Myer

• Edward Myer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Edward Myer was recently blocked for two weeks, for creating a sock account to retaliate against myself and another AfC reviewer whose reviews they didn't like. (The socking was just the tip of the iceberg, there's much more to this as their talk page shows.) That block expired a few days ago, and since then they're back on the war footing, complaining and insinuating here, there and everywhere; as well as posting similar stuff on the talk pages of UtherSRG, 28bytes and AmandaNP. I think this needs to stop; for one thing it's a time sink, and I for one really don't care for the belligerence. I don't think I should be the one to indef them, as I'm involved, but I'd be grateful if someone did. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 18:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• I am not involved except insofar as I have declined Draft:Bruse Wane, but I saw their behaviour towards others and it made me consider whether I would make a review, especially to decline. A less resilient reviewer might well have avoided it.

I confess that I am waiting for the invective, and I support DoubleGrazing's well measured request on that basis.

My view is for one final attempt in case they are educable. If they are not then 'final' should mean 'indefinite editing restrictions' 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 18:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

They have been WP:FORUMSHOPPING, . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at User:Edward Myer/sandbox. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. (talk) TiggerJay (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

To be fair, the sandbox may have a better shot at acceptance! I aways believe in extending my good faith as far as possible. I have seen some remarkable turnarounds by doing so. Obviously there comes a point, but I am not wholly sure we are there yet. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the initiative in filing this ANI, DG; I was || this close to filing it myself. This user just doesn't get it. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. Edward Myer (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The above post is a duplicate of that posted at Help Desk. Schazjmd (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Seems like a clear case of WP:NOTHERE and just wanting to push an article to mainspace and WP:IAR without even citing such. Sounds like a longer block may be necessary. TiggerJay (talk) 23:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Edward Myer, this is serious. Have you read over this complaint? Can you let this grudge go and go on to do some productive editing and let the past be the past? If you continue on this path, I don't see you editing on Misplaced Pages for the long term. This is a moment where you can choose to change your approach and turn around you time here as an editor. But it is up to your willingness to do so. Does that sound like something you can and want to do? Liz 02:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  My field of expertise is Hip Hop. I do intend to do other articles on other subjects, and add relevant updates to current live articles. I'm here to be apart of the community and contribute to[REDACTED] in a specific field that I'm passionate about. I hold no grudge or ill will for no one. As I said to LiZ I had to get adjusted to how communication on[REDACTED] works. Edward Myer (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Before any action is taken, I have made a substantial offer of assistance to Edward Myer on their user talk page. I am no-one special to make the offer, and I would like us to take a little time to see if it can be effective before reaching any conclusion. I have had some success before with helping editors who are in pain here. The offer is in the spirit of my early post in this thread. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 07:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. Edward Myer (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

We have started to work together. May I suggest respectfully that any other matters be set aside for the duration? They can always be returned to if deemed necessary. My hope is that editors will not feel it to be necessary. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

My concern is the sock. Edward Myer, do you promise never to sock again? GoodDay (talk) 14:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Continual ECP-Violating Posts in WP:RUSUKR area by User_talk:Valentinianus_I

Blocked for a week. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• _Valentinianus I (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Valentinianus I is an editor with 80 edits as of the moment I'm writing this, the majority of edits made to WP:RUSUKR topics.

• As background, this editor was notified repeatedly by User:Mellk in August , and clarified . Melik again notified Valentinianus a month later in response to more edits that were not exempt , .

• Valentinianus was blocked for a few weeks in October until User:Rosguill unblocked them after giving benefit of the doubt. I'm only bringing this up because Rosguill, during the unblock reference notified Valentinianus that they would "like you to confirm that you've read and understand Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Russo-Ukrainian War#Remedies by identifying edits that you have made in violation of it, and how you will observe it going forward."

• User:Isabelle Belato notified Valentinianus on 1/18 that they were making inappropriate edits in violation of RUSUKR and was violating WP:BATTLEGROUND as well . Valentinianus replied that asking for a rename and calling for a subsequent rename vote were edit requests .

After that reply to Isabelle Belato (so that there is no question Valentinianus is aware of the latest warning), Valentinianus made five additional edits to Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine. None were remotely along the line of constructive edit requests, the problematic ones being to argue that a source is a "Ukrainian shill site" , a project complaint about the infobox , and WP:ASPERSIONS about the bad faith of the other editors on the talk page .

While in isolation, no individual edit is egregious, this editor has been warned several times about the limits of RUSUKR, and adding WP:BATTLEGROUNDS, WP:AGF , and WP:ASPERSIONS violations in this area to the number of WP:ECP violations, I believe an indefinite topic ban from WP:RUSUKR topics, broadly construed, is appropriate. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 19:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've just blocked them for a week instead. If they're ignoring the ECR restrictions, they'll just ignore a topic ban; that's because the reason they're ignoring the ECR restrictions is either WP:CIR or the fact that they don't care, and either would apply to a topic ban as well. Perhaps they'll get the message after this block, or perhaps they won't at which point we can look at further sanctions (which, let's face it, is likely to be an indef). Black Kite (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• Just noting that the prior block before this was a sockpuppetry block, which I lifted as I found their explanation of how they came to make their edits plausible. The further editing since the unblock as outlined in the block actioned by Black Kite seems appropriate. _signed, Rosguill 22:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Are we looking at the same editor, CoffeeCrumbs? Rosguill never unblocked this editor but Beeblebrox did back in December. Liz 01:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

There's a few comments here that seem muldly disconnected from exactly what happened previous to this, but probably not to the point whee it changes the math on this latest block. Beeblebrox 02:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

It appears I was unclear. I was quoting Rosguill's reminder about RUSUKR in the conversation about a possible unblock . My point wasn't about the block itself, but that the editor received an additional warning about their edits in that area. I missed including that specific diff. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 10:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 11:35, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

User talk page access, Wiseguy012

I'm just going to close this. If Wiseguy012 returns and continues to rant or issues personal attacks, please return to ANI. Liz 04:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Blocked user WiseGuy012 is using their talk page only for the purpose of continuing the rant that they got blocked for at Talk:Tagine and that they continued there as a sock account, Friend0113, which is also now blocked. See . Revoke user talk page access? Largoplazo (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, Largoplazo,

There is no User:WiseGuy012 account. Did you mean someone else? Liz 01:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Wiseguy012, lower g. CMD (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks CMD. They are just ranting to themselves, not attacking anyone. An admin might come by, review this complaint and remove TPA but I don't find it egregious enough to act. Typically blocked editors can act like this right after they discover they've been blocked but then they move on and leave Misplaced Pages or they start creating sockpuppets and that's a bigger problem than a talk page rant. Too soon to tell right now. But it doesn't seem ANI-worthy to me. Liz 01:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The things some people decide to get mad about.... What they posted on the talk page was a copyright violation in its entirety, so that's gone, and I've warned them for that and let them know further disruption of any kind will cause them to lose talk page access. Beeblebrox 01:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry about the G, and thanks for the guidance about the talk page access. Largoplazo (talk) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Still misuse of talk page for spamming. -Lemonaka 07:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That content was posted hours ago and was similar to what was reported here in the complaint. Liz 08:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Caste-based disruption

HistorianAlferedo has engaged in contentious WP:BATTLEGROUND style editing in the WP:CASTE related sanctioned topic area for quite sometime now. The user being repeatedly warned and clearly aware of these sanctions (evident from the removal of warning notices on their talk page) shows no signs of desisting. The editing pattern follows a faux concern of caste promotion by removing genuine well-sourced and known information all the while engaging in Rajput POV in multiple articles. That the editor isn't new is also evident from the fact that they can handedly cite obscure policies such as WP:RAJ (of course incorrectly and disingenously). Lisiting some particuarly egregious edits:

• , , , : deliberate insertion of incorrect wikilinks and false removals to obscure that the empresses were Rajput princesses
• : clearly falsifying an acronym (note the insertion of a dubious reference which nonetheless has nothing to do with the article subject)
• , , , , : POV caste-based insertions
• , : POV caste-based removals

This only a fraction of the tendentious edits in the user's topic warrior style editing related to Indian history and social groups. Not to mention the insertion of multiple non-RS refs when it suits the preferred POV while claiming to remove them in other articles. Considering the history, ediitng restrictions should follow in the form of a WP:CASTE t-ban or a general one till the user can show that they are not going to be in violation of enwiki policies anymore (all the more necessary considering the IP socking , ). Bringing this to ANI on advice of the editor themselves: . Gotitbro (talk) 11:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Gotitbro, you MUST notify the editor that you have posted this complaint. Please do so. Liz 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

 Done Gotitbro (talk) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Actually i was only editing and adding new information along with genuine citations. I had no motive for any sort of vandalism or anything else. Based on the knowledge about various topics of Indian history i was just trying to contribute in a positive way. Moreover some of the allegations by user Gotitbro are totally irrelevant, i’m not an indian but interested in the topics related to Indian history. New editors should be supported by the old ones and not demotivated with false allegations. Alright, if the old editors don’t want the new ones to contribute to[REDACTED] even in a good way then i’ll definitely even delete my account from wikipedia. Thank you HistorianAlferedo (talk) 08:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

HistorianAlferedo, I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. Liz 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay @Liz. Please have a look at pages: Ghiyath al-Din Tughluq and Firuz Shah Tughlaq, I added relevant information along with scholarly work sources but user:@Gotitbro just reverted all the changes without even looking at the correct citations. That’s why i thought now i won’t edit and visit[REDACTED] as few users here just try to show off their ranks, there are good wikipedians and administrators too but a few of them are doing this with the new contributors. Thank you HistorianAlferedo (talk) 15:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

On-wiki hounding, off-wiki soliciting, and severe stalking by User:SerChevalerie

I wanted to let go this and move on, but considering my uncertain future with SerChevalerie, I had to take this to ANI.

To give a little background of the editing behavioural problems with the above mentioned editor, it started around late June 2024 when I made this edit . This was followed by his immediate reverts and significant edits . I had no problem with this, as this article was something wherein a third party editor had requested to expand it in a local Misplaced Pages WhatsApp group we were part of.

Both me and SerChevalerie were part of this WhatsApp group of Wikipedians from Goa. Having known each other online for over two years, and we shared the same native state. The problems arrived when he got back active on Misplaced Pages after a break of roughly 4 years and went on serious stalking my edits, the page I contributed, but mainly the pages that I created. As am In WP:Inclusionist and I love creating articles, but this was something he went overly critical on.

From June to August 2024, most of the edits SerChevalerie made were pertaining to the articles that I significantly worked on or created. During this, I was much subject to WP:HOUNDING on major of the articles I created such as Tsumyoki, you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just WP:BLUDGEON, arguing by citing essays like WP: 10YEARTEST instead of finding a resolution or just WP:DTS. It was until I finally took the decision to take it to WP:3O we reached a consensus after several days of discussion.

Over the course of some 30 articles that I created from June to August 2024, SerChevalerie has made edits which often times were seen as annoying and major stalking behaviour. He also likes to stay at the "top of the order" constantly as you can on articles such as Julião Menezes as per his latest "copyedit". During this period of two months almost entirely of his edits he has made were only pertaining to my articles.

When I had nominated his article Goa Revolution Day for SD, he then tried to solicit and I felt harrassed after he took his arguments to WhatsApp. Even after saying I don't want to discus this off-wiki he forced it upon me by confronting me in a group of 200-250 Wikipedians and having his arguments posted there. This is the same whatsapp group we were part of. And I have the relevant evidence with me.

SerChevalerie also has undisclosed COI with articles such creating and editing his grandfather's article significantly Gerald Pereira and a suspected COI paid editing on article like Subodh Kerkar. I have relevant evidence to support this claim. You can also check the latter's talk page where he claims that he "recreated" entirely on the article after it had some issues when it was created, see

He also seems to want a Misplaced Pages article on himself by using his connections and other Wikipedians to help him feature on the news (or possibly paid news) see here (Redacted). I find this featured article on him rather suspicious as it was published when SerChevalerie barely returned back to editing after 4 years.

When I had to quit Misplaced Pages for over 4 months due to my poor mental health because of him, he too wasn't very active on Misplaced Pages as he noticed I wasn't active anymore. You can check his edit history around the months of October and November this made me realise that SerChevalerie might have WP:OCD relating to my presence on Misplaced Pages itself. When I returned back to editing in early January this year, I made my first edit on the article J. C. Almeida. The next day he tries to repeat the same behaviour of stalking me and "staying on top" of the page. See . Please note that he didn't have any editing history on this page untill I edited it.

I still feel constantly watched by this editor everytime I am on Misplaced Pages. I want to propose to the community for a block on SerChevalerie or having placed WP:Sanctions on articles that I create so that he stops this behaviour. He also knows my real name and I don't want to get WP:Outed or doxxed by him as we both are from Goa, India. I'm afraid he might just get my residence address and does any harm. I just want to get rid of this issue and move on. Rejoy(talk) 11:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I haven't looked at everything, and especially not the off-wiki claims, but I get the impression the behavior issues may not be as one-sided as presented.

"During this, I was much subject to WP:HOUNDING on major of the articles I created such as Tsumyoki, you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just WP:BLUDGEON, arguing by citing essays like WP: 10YEARTEST instead of finding a resolution or just WP:DTS."

In this talk page you're both volleying policy pages, essays, and vague accusations at each other, but the concerns SerChevalerie raised about this article were not unfounded. It starts from something reasonable, and you both escalate at lightning speed.

If I look at your interactions, I'm not sure I see the story of one-sided WP:HOUNDING. You both edit similar pages and regularly get into arguments.

I don't see you trying to disengage with this user either, you've served him three different level 1 warning templates, now you're escalating to ANI with more inflammatory statements. If you're seriously worried about physical harm, please disregard this and rush to Misplaced Pages:Responding to threats of harm, but at least in the diffs you've linked, I don't see much credible threat of physical harm. Mlkj (talk) 14:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

On-wiki evidence here, off-wiki evidence arbcom. Too long to read and wall of text. -Lemonaka 08:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

User:TTYDDoopliss and gender-related edits

Indeffed by Canterbury Tail EvergreenFir (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I just wanted to add that TTYDDoopliss was found to be the sockpuppet of an editor many of us became familiar with last spring on ANI and the Teahouse. Liz 04:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• TTYDDoopliss (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Summary: Is there a non-male administrator willing to provide some guidance to this editor, particularly in edits related to gender?

The user in question is relatively new. (Yes, an early edit stated she had a previous account, but she used it for roughly one day in December 2024 before losing her password, and she had no warnings at all on the account, so abuse of multiple accounts does not apply here.

With her new account, she quickly received a message alerting her that gender is a contentious topic, so she is CTOPS/aware of gender issues. After which, she has made edits including:

• This sequence of edits to List of media notable for being in development hell:
  • Edit summary: men don’t be utterly deprived and ruin women’s lives by being a sex pest challenge (don’t revert if you’re a man, you’re disgusting and I want nothing to do with you guys)
  • Edit summary: Undid revision 1270571008 by C.Fred (talk) how many more women are going to be hurt by continuing to let men like this in the game industry
• To Dawn M. Bennett, removing an image with the edit summary she has cleavage, which means men will want to screw her if they see the image
• To her own user talk, removing a thread that included warnings with the edit summary please leave me alone, im trying to lessen my suffering as a woman in a male-dominated world

I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I concede her point that, generally speaking, men in the world have done and continue to do pretty crappy things to women. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs, and IMO, some of her edits are even going counter to the viewpoint she holds. I also know that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social platform, and I worry that her behaviour, unchecked, will result in her crossing a line that gets her blocked, where an admin, regardless of gender, has to stop the disruption.

I'd like somebody to reach out to her to give her some advice before it gets to that point, and—while I generally think that any editor can do any job on Misplaced Pages regardless of gender—I think this a situation where a non-male or cisfemale administrator should be the one to make the contact. —C.Fred (talk) 15:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that if there's any founded concerns a trans woman would get bitten in this hypothetical interaction then we should probably just WP:NOTHERE right now. However then I went and looked at the diffs in question and the discussion that was on the user's talk page and I have to ask: has anyone considered this might all be a troll? Simonm223 (talk) 15:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

perhaps my useful non-gender related edits might tip you off to the fact that im not a troll? here’s something non-gender related articles i fixed up: Monster-taming game, Cookie Run: Kingdom, Acer Aspire One Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I think this is a straightforward WP:RGW or WP:NOTTHERAPY block. Misplaced Pages quite a number of women editors and they seem to be fine and don't seem to experience overt persecution. I just don't see how this user can reasonably be expected to collaborate with others, a core requirement of Misplaced Pages editing, if they're just going to accuse everyone else of being misogynists. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them removing mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, Poe's law in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

@TTYDDoopliss Hrm. So is the inference that you willingly and knowingly made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —C.Fred (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Honestly I don't think you're in any sort of distress at all. As I think, rather, that you are trolling Misplaced Pages and WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 18:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• benefit of the doubt – Pardon me, but what doubt could there possibly be? EEng 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Surprised they weren't blocked after calling the vast majority of en.wiki contributors "nerdy men". E_F 16:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

that’s… not an insult? just an observation Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL Simonm223 (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. E_F 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

“Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. E_F 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I go to the talk pages of articles, no one ever responds. I just operate over WP:BRD, it’s easier and takes less time. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

i mean you requested “guidance”, everyone else is suggesting indef which is not what i had in mind when you left this here. id gladly take a gensex topic ban over never being able to edit ever again. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm suspecting trolling, here. GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for WP:CIVIL violations. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information about the exploitation caused by the games industry - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make women working in the games industry literally less visible, seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body Be that as it may, leave that attitude at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

clearly you’ve never had a phobia, or OCD. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. Tarlby 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

You've already been told by Liz, so it's up to you now. Either acknowledge and take on the board the advice you have been given, or yes, you will likely be blocked. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Acknowledge that your past actions were wrong and disruptive, you promise to never do them again, and from here on contribute constructively. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• TTYDDoopliss, I'll cut to the chase rather than participating in a debate over what your motivation is for some of your editing. I'm a female administrator and you've been brought to ANI. While this is sometimes done for frivolous reasons, for the most part, unless vandalism is occurring, complaints are brought here to resolve in order that harsher sanctions won't be necessary. It's an attempt to address problems before a block becomes necessary. There is a view that your glib messages asserting a POV regarding sexism or editors on this project are inappropriate and borderline unacceptable. Can you cease with the personal commentary here? Because if you can not, there will not be a third chance, my Misplaced Pages experience tells me that a block from editing of some duration will be coming your way. So, the choice is up to you at this point. Act professionally and not like Misplaced Pages is some kind of discussion forum, or have your editing privileges removed.

And to reinforce this in case it needs to be emphasized, this is not about sexism or gender really, it's about NPOV and disruptive editing. You'd be getting a similar message if you were making side comments about politics, ethnicity, race or any other subjects that cross over into contentious subject areas. These are designated areas where sloppy editing and off-the-cuff comments are sanctioned if the editor can't control her/himself. From a nerdy female editor, Liz 18:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

is there any other way I can make Misplaced Pages a better place for women? How about a policy like WP:CHILDPROTECT but for women? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm looking at this edit. A perfectly normal picture of a woman was removed with a weird and offensively sexualised edit summary. I can't begin to stress how perfectly normal that picture is. There are two possibilities here. One is that this is anti-feminist trolling under a false flag but the other is that TTYDDoopliss is exactly what she claims to be and was genuinely triggered by a perfectly ordinary picture of a woman at an awards ceremony. If the later then she is clearly in no state to be able to edit Misplaced Pages at this time. Pictures like that turn up all over Misplaced Pages. If we have stronger evidence of deliberate trolling elsewhere then obviously that's an indef (of both the old and new accounts) but if that edit was made in good faith then I think a temporary block would be best for all concerned. It would give TTYDDoopliss an opportunity to come back later if she is well enough, and if she wants to, of course. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

There's this which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

What we would expect is to find WP:MEDRS compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in WP:OR in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

And, exacerbating this, you were already engaged here with people raising concerns about your widespread disruptive editing, which had been explained to you, before you made this edit. Which makes it quite deliberated disruption. Simonm223 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

OK. Now I'm looking at this edit and that does seem a lot more like trolling. The edit summary sounds like an anti-feminist parody of a feminist and the actual edit is to remove coverage of an alleged sex offender. Given that sexual misconduct is a serious issue in the video games industry it seems implausible that even the most misguided feminist would try to cover it up. I know that mental illness can express itself in many ways but... I just don't buy it. DanielRigal (talk) 19:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I removed it because it made me upset. What? Have you read WP:NPOV and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just WP:TROLLING, a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

fine ill shut up now Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

This edit also looks like parody. Simonm223 (talk) 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the male protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

No one said or implied any such thing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Women don't exist to fulfill men's needs. That is very true. However desire for a partner can certainly be part of a character's motivation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

This edit actually takes a WP:MEDRS cited statement and rewrites it to say something that the RS did not say not once but twice. In addition, there is the claim that erasing sexual orientation as a possible subject of obsessive and compulsive ideation is somehow reducing heteronormative bias. Which is somewhat contrary to what I would expect from a sincere feminist editor. Simonm223 (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

This edit is somewhat better than average. At least the source says, "Insofar as they affect women, bromances, when taken in conjunction with monogamous heterosexual relationships, decrease the burden on women to provide all the care work for their partners."

However "all the care work" is paraphrased by Doopliss to "The increasing tolerance of bromances relives pressure on women to be emotionally intimate with men," which is... not... the same thing. But at least I can look at the source, look at the statement and draw a line between them, however tenuous. Simonm223 (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Also, this too supports my "troll" hypothesis since the very next paragraph of the Chen source begins "Bromances reinforce gender hierarchy, bolster marriage as the goveming, archetypal intimate relationship, and normalize homophobia." So we have an article crtical of bromance being used to praise it for getting men out of womens' hair. Simonm223 (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's clear some form of block is necessary now. Tarlby 19:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Because you have disrupted multiple topics. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

And that's it. That's the proof that we are being played. An inexperienced user would not be advocating for a topic ban. An inexperienced user would not even know what a topic ban was. This is probably a Gamergate dead-ender yanking our chains. DanielRigal (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd suggest a checkuser but what's the point? They are going to get blocked anyway. DanielRigal (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I know what a topic ban is because I’ve lurked on pages like AN/I before. I’ve been browsing back-end Misplaced Pages pages for years. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

what can I do to make you guys believe me? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That ship has sailed. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and blocked them. It's clear we're being trolled. They're not only offensively characterising men, they're offensively characterising women and people with mental illnesses. Thay also can't keep their own lies and beliefs straight. We're done here. Canterbury Tail talk 20:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite block

For disruptive editing and failure to get the point. I propose that TTYDDoopliss be indefintely blocked. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Per nom. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. Even if they are what they claim to be there is nothing for them here. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support. In addition, WP:NOTTHERAPY and WP:BATTLEGROUND. - The literary leader of the age ✉ 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support For the reasons and multitudinous diffs cited above I believe this whole dog and pony show is a troll. WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per above. I don't mean to be rude, but Wikipedians are a diverse bunch, and some of us are bound to be male. If you can't work collaboratively, you can't work at all. E_F 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support because as I said before, whether this user has legitimate intentions behind these edits or is just WP:TROLLING, their disruptive editing and refusal to acknowledge their actions shows me that they are WP:NOTHERE. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per nom Tarlby 19:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support Per Nom. The way she characterizes certain mental illnesses is untrue and frankly beyond offensive. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support - I believe we're being trolled. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per nomination - I had initial sympathy but it's just trolling. qcne (talk) 20:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Good block by CT. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support: TTYDDoopliss asked, several times over, what she could do to avoid a general block. Over and over again, she refused to respond in the one way that would have helped her: by saying that she'd clean up her act and stop dumping her own issues onto this site. Even if we weren't being trolled, any time an IDHT person gets cbanned, an angel gets its wings. Ravenswing 21:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Toa_Nidhiki05: WP:OWN and WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour.

Toa Nidhiki05 has been guarding the hell out of the Republican Party (United States). They instantly revert any change against the status quo that they don't like, citing a need for consensus, then don't actually engage with discussions around those edits except to call for moratoriums on even talking about them while spewing bad faith assumptions, or trying to wikilawyer away disagreements. I'm not a long term editor at Republican Party (United States) and, frankly, don't want to be, but in the limited number of days I've been editing on this it's clearly an issue.

diff

diff

diff

diff

(The main thing I'm trying to draw attention to in those diffs is the declaration that an edit "will not be made'. Please see below before taking claims of local consensus at face value)

Most recently he decided to just blanket slander multiple editors who disagree with him while again calling for a moratorium on changes he doesn't like. diff

More specifically this line:

Rather than persuade editors, it seems editors are attempting to force these changes through. (right below an entire thread that was made before a controversial change specifically to discuss said change)

diff

I feel this last one is the most important, because it highlights a pattern of what's been going on here: Toa telling editors a local consensus has been reached, and that they're free to read back, and then citing their own requests obliquely as if they're others ("or called for a moratorium on changes") and, most importantly, creating an in-group of who is allowed to weigh in on article content (Only one active discussion-engaged user). Other editors, like @Cortador, have been calling them out for this as well.

Note, actually doing what Toa asks and looking back through old talk page discussions on this largely results in finding Toa telling people the same thing then, too.

There's a content dispute under-riding most of this, which frankly is probably best adjudicated at this point by literally anyone other than Toa or myself. The meat of this ANI is wholly independent of the content dispute, except insofar as Toa's apparently not been engaging in the most NPOV way with editors when it comes to sourcing requirements. I want to point out that despite Toa's reality-bending insistence I've been pretty open to admitting a different proposal for a change from others was better than my own idea. In an attempt to placate his revert-happy self on what I was sure would be controversial (removing 'conservative' from the dominant ideology of the party) I started by making a discussion thread highlighting that the sources that were being used didn't make that claim, including direct quotes from the papers. Except for admonishing editors for wanting change, he's mostly elected to just straight up ignore any substantive discussion over the exact thing he's reverting. This is clearly OWN and POV editing, and it looks like previous attempts to caution him for edit warring were met with 'Are you fucking kidding me.'. I'd honestly like to bow out of editing that page entirely for a while for so many reasons, but I don't want to leave it in a state where one editor has declared an article theirs.

Addendum: this TBAN for the same behaviour is being discussed, but the link is buried in the discussion.Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The page-in-question should be stable & at status quo. Best to work out content disputes on the page-in-questions' talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 15:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think that the content dispute should be decided here. To be clear, 99% of the content dispute is moving one sentence earlier in the article and removing a source that failed verification. We're not talking about seeing how fast we can invoke Godwin's Law in a page about the GOP (though admittedly some editors are). I genuinely don't think the content in question actually substantial at all, which is why one editor increasingly spiralling into mudslinging over it while refusing to discuss changes beyond categorical rejection or highly mobile goalposts for inclusion is a problem. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I am out of town, and don't have time to reply fully to all of this. But the general dispute ongoing at the page is twofold: Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right", and they want "conservatism" to be removed as a majority faction. There doesn't appear to be support for either of these things (an ongoing RfC on the "far-right" designation is trending a pretty strong consensus in opposition, and removing conservatism appears to be equally unlikely to reach consensus). This is a content dispute involving, at this point, probably at least a dozen editors, and should be resolved on the page.

What Warrenmck does not seem to understand is that changing political positions on pages is something that comes up all the time. None of the arguments presented have been new, and a local consensus has been developed with the collaboration of many editors. This took a lot of hard work and compromise to reach.

For editors like myself - who worked on the present consensus versions - this is not a fresh, new discussion. It's more or less an endless string of discussions that have been ongoing for years. This is why several other editors - not just myself (and I'm not even the one who came up with the idea - that was Czello. I was actually the third to support one) have supported a moratorium on said discussions. There is nothing wrong with discussing a moratorium on repetitive topics that repeatedly emerge on talk pages.

I will also note that, I have not, in fact, blindly opposed any changes to the article. I did not object when “right-wing populism” was added as a majority faction; I didn’t even participate in the discussion, iirc, because it was such an obvious changed. And in this discussion I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes. It goes without saying that the article is not mine, I have never claimed it is mine, and I have no interest in subverting or going against whatever consensus is reached through talk page discussions, rather than brute force. Toa Nidhiki05 15:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Once again, what I was calling for was including "far right" as a minor faction, per the an absolute ocean of reliable sources. Even you explicitly stated in the RfC it's a minor ideology. You've accused me of wanting to make the page about the republicans being far right multiple times now, and the only time you've responded to me saying that 's not what I'm doing here was to say that having it on the page at all slanders the party as that

Except the RfC isn’t about labelling the party far right, it’s about naming it as a minor ideology, which you here acknowledge?

and you responded

Which is labeling the party as it.

Which isn't how NPOV editing works.

Beyond that I simply don't believe that Toa is accurately representing the discussions that are there now or the historical discussions around local consensus.

I will also note that, I have not, in fact, opposed any changes. In fact, I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes

Please, any admin reading this exact quoted line, immediately go look at Toa's engagement on this exact point here. Toa added a source paper, I read the source paper, removed it because it simply didn't make the claim it was being used to make, and instantly started a discussion thread asking for sources and explicitly explaining my removal. I did not make the change I knew would be controversial, that was a different editor later. I also quoted the specific line in the paper which discussed why it wasn't an approprioate source for the claim it was being used for in my removal (diff) Which Toa almost completely ignored. This is simply not an accurate recounting of events.

This is why I think this is an ANI issue. Toa routinely misrepresents or overstates consensus and historical discussions, while running off editors who don't agree, then claiming that only the long term editors should have a meaningful say. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Please find a time where I said you “want to make the page about the Republicans being far right”. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that. I have said you clearly have strong views about the subject, though.

What you are referencing was a typo. Notice that it’s not even a complete sentence? Toa Nidhiki05 16:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Literally in this ANI:

Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right"

That is not the same thing as defining far-right as a minor ideology of the party. Also from the talk page:

Its exclusion is not odd, as academic sources do not widely or generally or even often refer to the party as far-right, which is typically associated with literal fascism or Nazism. Believe it or not, this has been discussed dozens of times - including several in the last few months - and editors have reached a consensus that academic sources broadly refer to the party as center-right or right-wing. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

You are making a distinction without a difference. Toa Nidhiki05 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• Involved: These are content disputes and should be dealt with at that level. Springee (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• Toa_Nidhiki05 appears to have been exceedingly cordial and professional in the differences you provided above. I see no wrongdoing on their part. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  I cannot disagree, except I think that speaking authoritatively about how a change will not be done regardless of sources provided simply breaks WP:OWN:

  An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.

  The other problem is that the consensus they're pointing to doesn't seem to substantially exist. There's an abundance of "go see the old discussions" which themselves say "go see the old discussions" and so on. It's artificial, and it's being used to prevent edits that users don't like, as opposed to edits they can substantively object to. Seriously, just look at his presentation of these previous discussions here and go back in the archives. While I'm sure there were discussions at some (possibly many) points, there's a hell of a lot of reliable sources being objected to there on a house of cards.

  Additionally, I think that's masking the fact that they're simply refusing to engage editors while reverting the article to the status quo. They're basically holding the article hostage by pointing people to an ongoing discussion they're not engaging in (diff, or on the talk pages with "see previous discussion" as a threadkiller). So the choice editors are left with is to edit war over an inclusion, or give up. The issue isn't that there's a content dispute here, it's that someone has WP:WIKILAWYERed their way into objecting to a specific edit on an ongoing basis, always maintaining a layer of "content dispute". As Cortador said, "Do you have a content-based case to make here or do you just declare editor's contributions to be "low quality" if you disagree with them?" Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place after I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer WP:CPUSH problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an WP:OWN mentality. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Springee appears to be actively involved in this, and there's comments on their guarding against "far right" in the article going back at least two years of the same argumentation pattern and misrepresenting sourcing requirements and consensus. diff diff diff and diff. I agree this seems more like a CPUSH. For example, this was directed at Springee from the last diff:

  The same failed arguments have been made in several similar discussions of late

  Basically, the patten we're seeing at Republican Party (United States) appears to be ongoing with several of the key users objecting to changes on identical grounds year after year without ever really explaining why these aren't open for discussion in light of sourcing standards. @The Four Deuces appears to be engaging in an identical pattern in many of the same articles. TFD, Toa, and Springee show up all over[REDACTED] making the same tortured arguments around academic sourcing and consensus when someone mentions "far-right" in an article. Every single time it's a complete slamming of the door of the possibility that RS could ever be met for the inclusion of information they deem controversial. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 13:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. Springee (talk) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

  Sorry, being vague wasn't my intention. I think you're engaging in the same CPUSH behaviour as Toa, just maintaining civility much better. It's possible to find years worth of identical argumentation from you on this across many articles, always with the same anything-other-than-excluding-content-is-unacceptable, and above you're continuing the relatively nonsensical arguments from Toa with Simonm223 in asking for unique sourcing standards for a claim you really don't like. You pick this fight very consistently on Misplaced Pages, usually with the same arguments.

  If I'm way out of line here I'm fine accepting a boomerang, but I see several editors going way off the deep end in trying to prevent a very specific change to articles on Misplaced Pages that seems to be coming from a place of stonewalling diff diff Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

  I hope my arguments have been consistent because I try to pay strict adherence to content policy and guidelines. TFD (talk) 17:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

  Accusing other editors of making "low quality" edits instead of making an argument isn't helpful or professional, and neither is demanding a unique standard for edits one is opposed to. Cortador (talk) 17:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• This is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article. This discussion should be closed. Nemov (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  Respectfully WP:CPUSH and WP:SEALION are behavioural problems. Simonm223 (talk) 20:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

As a comment, Toa’s response to multiple users adding failed verification tag was to go tag all the sources making a political claim they don’t like as failing verification en masse (diff).

while these all on their own may be legitimate tags (though other editors have been removing some tags as apparently they did pass verification) I think taking this in the context of them actually refusing to discuss the failed verification tag that lead to this spree at all makes this pretty WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour to me. If Toa wants to discuss bad edits, that’s good and fine. But they can’t have a policy of using bad edits from other people to deflect from any discussion around edits they themselves feel are valid. Apparently he doesn't have enough time to fully engage with this ANI or any of the discussions around his own edits, but does have enough time to read dozens of articles and point by point articulate his issue with each over at the talk page for Republican Party (United States). Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Comment: Toa was TBANed for this exact behaviour in 2022. The reason given at the time was

Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it.

This is the same pattern of behaviour he's accused of here, for the same thing, and that resulted in an indefinite TBAN. Springee and TFD are again involved there, as well. This should make it pretty clear that, civility aside, this is a problem. A long, ongoing one. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to WP:AE more than WP:AN/I. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Honestly I agree having seen more of this being a systematic issue since making this ANI. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps the issue is that good faith editor don't agree. A failure to get consensus to add a controversial claim is hardly proof of CPUSH. Additionally as the number of accused editors goes up it looks more like a true content dispute vs a single editor problem. I will also note that Toa has done quite a bit to review some of the references used to support the disputed changes and makes a good case that they don't support the claims within the edits being pushed into the article. Springee (talk) 14:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. Simonm223 (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy.

And very clearly retaliatory. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings. Per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". If the source does not back up the cited claim, it shouldn't be used. This is... pretty ordinary stuff, actually.

You'll notice I did not remove the broader claims, or change the in-article text. All I have done is trim sources that do not back up the claim given, which is something Misplaced Pages citations are required to do. If you reaction to a source review that results in no changes to prose is to file a report rather than discuss, challenge, or revert, you might have a hard time being successful with that. Toa Nidhiki05 15:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings

Would you please provide the diff where you substantively responded to a thread made directly about a source you added not passing verification, which you were pinged in and did actually participate without addressing the substance of? Because that would go a long way towards convincing me this isn't a smokescreen of policy to mask more sealioning in a thin veneer of civility and plausible deniability. How about addressing any of the comments providing the exact types of sources you were asked for? When I did provide a reason and eventually reverted your addition, you just reverted with "nah it didn't fail verification" ignoring both the edit summary prior and the entire talk page discussion about the entire situation. As I said there, neither I nor any other editor personally needs to run improvements on the article through you, personally. If you object without engaging or explaining, it's perfectly reasonable for editors to simply ignore your perspectives. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. Toa Nidhiki05 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No. The content dispute isn't the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I don't agree with Springee about some of their interpretations of appropriate content but I don't think their comportment is problematic except in as far as it gives cover to yours. Rather it's two things: how you insist sources should be interpreted and how you engage with other editors that has become disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 15:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The diff I asked for had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with you attempting to paint other editors as sidestepping a process you yourself have refused to engage in as a matter of policy, apparently going back far enough for you to have already received an indef TBAN for the exact same behaviour. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

As a perfect example, in this diff they claim that the New York Times piece does not support referring to the Republican party as right-wing populist. This is because it says that the party isn't just a touch more populist. It then compares the Republican party under Trump to the racist populist George Wallace and the fascist propagandist Father Coughlin. This, to me, is more than sufficient to support "right-wing populism" but, because the article uses simile, Toa Nidhiki05 calls it a "Gish Gallop". Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok here's the correct quote now: The overarching pattern is clear. In election after election, Democrats underperformed among traditional Democratic constituencies during the Trump era. Sometimes, it was merely a failure to capitalize on his unpopularity. Other times, it was a staggering decline in support. Together, it has shattered Democratic dreams of building a new majority with the rise of a new generation of young and nonwhite voters.
This overarching pattern requires an overarching explanation: Mr. Trump’s populist conservatism corroded the foundations of the Democratic Party’s appeal. It tapped into many of the issues and themes that once made these voters Democrats.
While the damage was mostly concealed by Mr. Trump’s unpopularity, the backlash to his norm-shattering presidency drew the Democratic Party even further from its traditional roots. The extent of that damage is now clear.

Now this article does compare the Democratic party as a whole to Trump on a purely linguistic level. However context matters here. The first line of the article is It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it. The NYT has as table-stakes that the Republicans were transformed by Trump. In this context I think it's a reasonable argument that "Trump" here is a stand-in for the party of Trump. Simonm223 (talk) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Also, the New York Times introduces the article by saying, "Nate Cohn, The Times’s chief political analyst, makes sense of the latest political data." Editorial and opinion commentary says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Therefore this is not an acceptable source.

It disruptive that so many unreliable sources have been presented in the discussion pages. It wastes edtiors' time as they discuss sources that cannot be used.

My suggestion is that going forward, unreliable sources that are presented should be struck out and editors who persist in presenting them should face sanctions. That will allow editors to focus on what reliable sources say. TFD (talk) 16:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what WP:RSEDITORIAL says When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint. Simonm223 (talk) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

In this case the author is a journalist with a BA in politics IOW he has the same background one would expect for the writer of an analysis in a newspaper. Furthermore, when policy says that this type of source is "rarely reliable," the onus is on the person presenting it to explain why it should be deemed reliable. TFD (talk) 17:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page. Maybe it would be best if editors heavily involved there, would avoid each other & allow newcomers room to give their input. Might lower the heat. GoodDay (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page.

It isn't, for what it's worth. It's about a consistent pattern of behaviours going back years that came out, mostly, in the thread after the RfC, though partially there as well. Beyond that, good call. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Is this the type of report that would be better addressed at WP:AE? ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Frankly, probably? I misjudged how long this had been going on and the scale of it. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it would be better suited to AE except that it's here now and AE tends not to like having an issue open at two venues. Simonm223 (talk) 17:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't see why you consider this a behavioral issue rather than a content dispute. I follow a lot of articles that attract editors with fringe views: fascism is left-wing, cultural marxism and Jewish bolshevism are not just conspiracy theories, aspartame is dangerous, climate science is unsettled, etc. Some editors explain why these views are wrong, while others point to previous discussions.

If anyone should be banned, it isn't editors who insist that articles reflect reliable sources, but editors who try to inject fringe theories unsupported by reliable sources.

On your user page, you mention that you have written peer-reviewed articles in geophysics and vulcanology. Certainly you would not rely on an analysis by a journalist as reliable in those papers. For example, you would not use it for explaining why a particular volcano erupted. TFD (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. Cortador (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

See Some types of sources: "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources."

Can you explain why in determining how to desribe a political group you prefer an article by a journalist rather than a political scientist writing in a peer-reviewed publication? Do you think it is prudent to substitute a consensus academic opinion with that of a journalist?

If I want to know how to categorize a poltical group or know why volcanoes erupt, my go to source isnt't a newspaper. Instead, I would look for an article by an expert. TFD (talk) 15:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

If I am following this properly, via the thread on the linked talk page:

1. The OP made a thread on Talk:Republican Party (United States) saying that we should change the article to say that it was "anti-intellectual" and "far-right".
2. Toa_Nidhiki05 said that this was a bad idea, and some stuff about previous consensus against doing this.
3. ???
4. AN/I thread

Is there anything I'm missing here? jp×g🗯️ 21:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Sealioning, a previous TBAN for identical behaviour, and multiple editors weighing in saying this is a CPUSH issue? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

You've said I'm guilty of sealioning three times in this thread, but as far as I can tell you haven't actually defined what you think that means, or what I've done. It's a pretty specific set of behavior - can you explain what I've done that qualifies as sealioning?

But to answer JPxG: yeah, that's essentially it. Like I said above, it doesn't look like either of Warrenmck's proposed changes will make it into the article, and I'm surprised this content dispute hasn't been closed yet. Toa Nidhiki05 23:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

You have refused to engage editors in the exact process you demand they engage in, you put forward sourcing standards which, when met, you completely dodge. On one hand you ask editors to discuss and respect consensus, on the other you wield prior consensus as a cudgel to prevent a change you don’t like and have made it abundantly clear that the sourcing standards you demand are not actually sourcing standards you’ll accept, rather, to quote an admin in your last TBAN: There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any basis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines. You’re engaging in vindictive editing patterns, which evidence has also been provided for. You have refused to articulate the actual substance of prior consensus other than pointing at it and saying “consensus, consensus, consensus” and when the exact arguments that lead to said consensus (apparently, you’ve still never linked a prior discussion) are being addressed and met you ignore the editor, as multiple people here have pointed out.

You’ve been doing this for years and were TBANed for it in 2022. Your attempt at denying it here rings hollow when multiple editors have been very explicit and provided diffs for sealioning behaviour. Im frankly a bit surprised at @JPxG’s rapid read of the situation considering the evidence of a TBAN for the exact behaviour raised here and multiple editors chiming in saying they see a WP:CPUSH. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 06:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm going to repeat this link which is referred to above but kind of hidden, here is the discussion that lead to the 2022 topic ban: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive312#Toa Nidhiki05, just in case anyone wants to review it. Liz 06:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It’s also worth pointing out that their reply to @JPxG engages in some of the direct behaviour they’re being called out for here: seemingly reasonably asking for a discussion while ignoring that what they’re asking for was already provided without them participating

You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings

In a vacuum, this looks like a completely reasonable editor engaged in a very civil discussion around edits. In practice this was already done before this comment, and Toa refused to engage in the discussion except one about the retaliatory edits, i.e. only edits they personally felt failed verification were up for discussion, not those they felt didn’t. Here they tell me I’m free to undo the source review, but apparently only on the sources they tagged as unreliable because the ones I tagged, evidenced, and started a discussion thread about were unilaterally removed, twice, with a simple claim that it didn’t fail verification diff diff with no attempt at engaging in the discussion thread about this exact thing except to tell me I’m “very passionate about this” and I shouuld stop editing diff diff.

A content dispute isn’t possible to properly adjudicate if one party is refusing to engage, then pointing to prior consensus. Toa has created a situation where they and their ephemeral prior consensus have right of review on an article. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• As I expected, @Warrenmck: - your claims are simply baseless. Consider this my final response to them.
• First off, let's talk about my topic ban. No, I did not get topic banned for sealioning. It was for disruptive behavior at the Stacey Abrams page - frankly, it was embarrassing, and the sanction was warranted. The fact you're having to resort to a years-old incident instead of right now, though, is pretty telling in terms of the merit of this report.
• Your claims of sealioning ring hollow because you still cannot define what POV I am pushing - I'm still not even convinced you know what sealioning is. Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors. See the problem here? I've behaved civilly, while your general response to... any sort of disagreement is make frivolous claims against me. If anyone's behavior should be on watch here, it is yours, because it's been utterly ridiculous.
• You seem extremely caught up on what I told you during your initial proposal here - how I told you your edit would not be accepted, and that while this is a topic you're clearly passionate about, it might be best for you to step away from it if you're unable to distance your personal feelings. I think everything I said is correct. Your proposal was bad. It didn't add any new information to the table, it isn't backed up by high-quality academic sources, and effectively all it's done is waste time. Like I said: your proposal may have been made in good faith, but it is not going to be accepted. And I was right! The RfC you started (after an initial discussion where nobody agreed with you, and an earlier attempt you made at an RfC that was malformed) has opposes ahead of supports by over a 2:1 margin. Your proposal to remove conservatism has been received as equally poorly.
• Similarly, your response to my source review wasn't to contest changes on the talk page or revert them - but instead, to accuse me here of "retaliation"; as far as I can tell, the only one you directly commented on at the talk page is to agree with me.
• Instead of looking inward and reconsidering your contributions, you instead started a frivolous, retaliatory AN/I board discussion that pretty much every uninvolved editor has reacted with bewilderment over.
• I am going to be blunt here: you are wasting my time, you are wasting your time, and you're wasting everyone's time here. Frankly, I think you should strongly consider limiting or ending your involvement in AP2 if your response to a basic content dispute and not getting your way is to post frivolous reports to AN/I. Toa Nidhiki05 13:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  As per link Liz provided above, your topic ban wasn't for disruptive behaviour on the Stacey Abrams page. That page isn't mentioned in the AIN discussion closure comments. The Republican Party article is, and the outcome was a a ban from that page and a topic ban, with the reasons cited being, among others, retaliatory posting, evidence of personal attacks, bludgeoning, and edit-warring. Cortador (talk) 14:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  TN, you have been very selective in what you see at article talk. In one instance you say, regarding the Republican Party's center-right designation, that there should be a moratorium on such discussions because "nothing new" has been presented. That is despite the fact that there are several new peer reviewed sources that contradict center-right and support far-right that have been presented and ignored by you. But the one time I agreed with you regarding a low-quality source you were very fast to point out my agreement in discussion. This is precisely the sort of behaviour that is leading to the complaints of sealioning. Regarding your POV it is that you want to retain the status quo at the page. You don't want to see revision, especially, to any high-level indicators of overall ideology such as infoboxes. That's fine we all have POVs. Mine is that the page is non-neutral calling the Republicans a center-right party. The problem comes when you ignore all evidence that contradicts your POV over the objection of multiple other editors and insist that no sources have been provided despite an abundance of high-quality sources being provided. Simonm223 (talk) 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  A professional paid editor frankly should have a much more complete understanding of WP:RS, WP:CONSENSUS, and WP:POV. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Nothing you said there replies to the post you responded to. This feels like a gish gallop. One with a reasonable number of falsehoods, at that. For example:

  Meanwhile, the moment you hopped onto the Republican Party page you demanded it be changed to list anti-intellectualism and far-right as ideologies, and then threaten to add said content unilaterally despite uniform opposition from other editors.

  Why not, for the folks at ANI reading along, explain the context in which I said I was going to unilaterally add far-right in? Hmm? Here's a diff.

  1. You failed to actually demonstrate there was a consensus, as one didn't exist in the place you directed me to.

  2. Neither you nor Springee, who you've been tag-teaming with on this exact edit for years, once articulated why it "wasn't going to be included" other than to state tautologically that it was not

  3. In the absence of any substantive objection, WP:RS material should be added in.

  WP:ONUS doesn't assume a stonewalled refusal to engage, and if the only substance to the objection I'm getting is a vague statement about an unreferenced consensus and WP:IDONTLIKEIT then yeah, I'm going to edit it in. I'm very used to editing in contentious article spaces and this isn't the first time I've seen this approach used to keep out changes. You can point to your civility until the cows come home but if it's masking POV editing that needs to be addressed. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• If you're going to accuse @Springee: of something, you could at least do them the decency of tagging them. That being said - the idea I've been tag-teaming with them for years on this is silly, because the page didn't have a political position listed until late last year (something you'd know if you... read the talk page archives, like you claim you have), so I'm not exactly sure what you think has been going on here.
• Moreover: there is, in fact, a consensus. I'm fairly confident I've pointed it out to you, but it was developed in the talk page in archives 32-34; there's not a single thread to pinpoint because it took place over numerous threads. Given what you've said above, however, I don't think you actually did ever read those discussions. The fact you're simply unable to accept that a local consensus exists (or, evidently, the fact that editors do not agree with your proposed changes by a 2:1 margin) is on you.
• With that, I'm done. If you want to waste your time litigating a content dispute at AN/I, go ahead. I'm no longer engaging with this. Toa Nidhiki05 15:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Others should note that this is the exact same pattern of behaviour that Warrenmck and I both highlighted previously: selectively responding to arguments that they can refute while ignoring those they cannot, pointing to a vaguely defined local consensus without pointing to a specific decision, and a fair bit of diversion with the whole complaint of not tagging @Springee, who is already quite thoroughly engaged in this thread. Simonm223 (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Why are you presenting arguments that can be refuted? TFD (talk) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't think I am, being honest, especially since you and I agree on source quality and I've taken great care to base my arguments on a large number of reliable peer reviewed academic sources rather than news media. But there are multiple editors involved in this discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 15:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm generally following this discussion. I think it would be helpful if we all try to assume good faith. It's clear there is a disagreement here. If editors feel they have successfully made a case against the status quo and feel the objectors are wrong I would suggest starting a RfC to confirm the answer. That's the best process for establishing that a consensus exists. I would also note that, right or wrong, rather than pushing edits into the article when consensus etc isn't clear, those wanting change should start a RfC so we can at least finish with a declared consensus on the question. We all ready have a "far-right" RfC open so half of this fight should be addressed when that one closes. Springee (talk) 15:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Warrenmck, you've replied to this discussion 20 times you started it. I advise you to reign it in a bit, as this has been treading towards WP:BLUDGEONING. You don't need to reply to every single comment in this discussion. Just mentioning this because the constant replies actually dissuaded me from reading through it all. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I can back away Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 18:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Repeated WP:GS/AA violations

On 26 October 2024, I informed User:Scherbatsky12 about the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction and explained what it meant.

Scherbatsky12 still created several articles or made expansions in areas covered by WP:GS/AA such as the following: Ibrahim Rahimov, Hokuma Aliyeva, Khalil Rza Uluturk, and made poorly sourced POV additions such as:

• "In 1993, due to the occupation of their village by Armenian forces, her family temporarily settled in Qaradamirchi village of the Barda District."

• "One of Khalil Rza's grandfathers, Rustem beg, was martyred during the Armenian Dashnak-led ethnic cleansing in Azerbaijan in 1918"

• "The restoration of our national army, alphabet, state borders that existed until April 28, 1920, economic and political independence, and the cessation of the despicable Dashnaktsutyun aggression".

Not only Scherbatsky12 was aware about, and even deleted the GS/AA notice , they still made several articles in its violation regardless and made GS/AA breaching additions that also include POV poorly sourced edits. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Even after this report, Scherbatsky12 still continues violating the extended confirmed restriction . KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Given them a final warning on the matter. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

@The Bushranger thank you, but aren't we over a warning here? I've already left a notice on their talk back in October and explained what it meant. They still violated the restriction numerous times and even violated again just hours ago after this report. The WP:AA3 topic area has stricter rules enforcement than most other topics, and the behavior of Scherbatsky12 isn't encouraging. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Consider revoking EC status on Scherbatsky when he reaches 501 total edits. Ahri Boy (talk) 00:08, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

@The Bushranger after violating the restriction while this report is ongoing , and your final warning, they've done it again in the same article: "On the day of the performance, there was a large audience, most of whom were Armenians". It's evident the user isn't competent enough to follow rules in contentious topics such as the AA3. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I apologize for the misunderstanding. What I do not understand is whether the occupation of Kalbajar by Armenian armed forces (1993) is considered controversial or problematic (). I have merely noted that Hokuma Aliyeva relocated due to the occupation of Kalbajar (). The rest resulted from careless translation and will not be repeated again.

This isn't about if Scherbatsky12 thinks their one edit is right or wrong: the point is they shouldn't have been editing info covered by the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction at all until reaching extended confirmed rank. The fact they still don't understand this is a clear indication of incompetence in a highly contentious topic area at that. Not only this, they continued violating the restriction while being reported here. And additionally, they're now attributing "the rest" of their POV edits to "careless translation", which is bizarre: how one doesn't even check what articles/edits they're making before publishing "translations" especially in a topic area that they were alerted is contentious and while violating a restriction they were aware about too? After their comment here, it's not reassuring that this wouldn't happen again and is further clear to me that Scherbatsky12 isn't competent enough to edit in a contentious topic area such as the AA3. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 15:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Caribbean Hindustani

• Caribbean Hindustani (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This is probably not the appropriate page, but I couldn't find a better one. If an admin may have a look at the version history of the Caribbean Hindustani article - there's two quite new editors battling out a dispute since December. Maybe some administrative guidance would help them. Thanks and kind regards, Grueslayer 18:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Per the notice at the top of this page, you were supposed to alert both editors of this thread. I've done so for you. Tarlby 18:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

This: , may or may not be helpful. I'd also add that I can't force someone to discuss something on the talkpage: Hermes Express (talk) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That would make sense if you'd tried discussing on the talk page, but you didn't head there until Tarbly asked you to. You can't force someone to discuss something but you can try discussing which you haven't done until now. Expecting the other party to start a discussion is rarely good editor behaviour especially when you are edit warring. Instead it's like a lame kids 'they started it' defence. The only way you can prove an editor refuses to discuss on the talk page is by trying otherwise you can both be counted as refusing to discuss. To be clear except the first sentence, this applies to both of you. Nil Einne (talk) 00:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I have added several sources and journel and official government and NGO sites that work on it to prove what I am writing. But that user dont have source to prove it and its just his opinion which he had written.

He also wrote his opinion on Hindustani page which got removed by the admin as it was false information but the same thing when I added on caribbean Hindustani page, he reverted my changes. If writing opinion as a fact and that too without any source and also the source provided dont match with the information.

I had talk with the user and explained several times in the edit and on talk page as well. I have explained everything which I added with source unlike him. Adrikshit (talk) 04:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Potential block evasion by IP 211.184.93.253 (old IP 58.235.154.8)

Blocks guaranteed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The IP 58.235.154.8 was banned on December 29, 2024 (6 month block duration) for disruptive editing. To be specific, they would write in a delay of a Starship launch by exactly one month, without any citations.

They had been banned before (two month ban) for the same behaviour.

A few examples that I sourced in my report of 58.235.154.8:

IP 211.184.93.253 is now repeating this pattern, in what appears to be block-evasion.

Out of the five edits made by this IP:

Made before 58.235.154.8 ban, changed Flight 8 launch date from Early 2025 to February 2025. Doesn't add a source.

Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches from February 2025 to March 2025. No source added.

Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.

Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches, again from February to March. No source added.

Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.

This is either a similarly disruptive editor, or more likely, a ban evader continuing their vandalism. Either way, they are not here to improve Misplaced Pages. Redacted II (talk) 19:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Additionally, geolocate places both IP addresses in the same region, which makes it quite likely that they are evading a ban.

Geolocate 1

Geolocate 2 Redacted II (talk) 19:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. Liz 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. Redacted II (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:RPP Rusalkii (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! Redacted II (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) (added after discussion close)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Danny5784

Danny5784 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) does not seem to have the maturity and judgement to be a productive editor. Despite a litany of talk page warnings and efforts by multiple editors to explain things to them, they are continuing to create unneeded pages. Of the 18 articles they've created, 9 have been redirected (mostly at AfD), 2 deleted, and 4 currently have unanimous delete/redirect consensus at AfD. Three of their most recent creations are particularly noteworthy:

• After Draft:New Jersey Transit 6539-6549 was declined by Stuartyeates, and I warned them that such pages are not notable, Danny5784 created it anyway.
• Danny5784 created NJ Transit bus garages with poor sourcing, much of it from a user-generated wiki. After Djflem wrangled it into a useful list, Danny5784 created both New Jersey Transit bus garages and NJ Transit Bus Garage Fleet/Routes apparently as content forks.

Danny5784 also has issues with copyright: they uploaded a large number of now-deleted files on Commons and seem unwilling to actually obtain verifiable permission, then did the exact same thing here, plus using blatantly false non-free content criteria.

With 460 edits over 15 months, Danny5784 is past the point where these can just be dismissed as newbie mistakes. They are a rather young editor who is unwilling or unable to follow basic norms such as notability, reliable sourcing, and copyright. Until they demonstrate more maturity, I believe a prohibition from page creation (article, template, and file upload) is needed. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Incorrect and no. No prohibition is necessary. You would need to teach and show him how it is done.

Don't even try to prohibit him. Over 15 months of editing, you still don't even accept it?! What is wrong with you? Your more stricter than high school so, knock it off and NO PROBITION! And also, he's trying his best to do it right. Toyota683 (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear  Confirmed result.-- Ponyo 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz: I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No problem, ever, with unarchiving, The Bushranger. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. Liz 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I just try to help run a clean ship. And no worries! As far as I can tell the template's working, but will leave this unhatted given that. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:26, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

As the editor who declined the article above at AfC, I'd encourage admins to shepherd young newbies towards AfC and similar venues. It's what we're hear for (if anything I should have given better comments in my decline). Stuartyeates (talk) 08:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Clerical note that this user is not the similarly named DannyS712. jp×g🗯️ 21:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

User LivinAWestLife vandalizing Republican Party article

LivinAWestLife made a large change to the Republican Party article which changed the ideology of the party from the consensus Center-right to fascist. They quickly then changed the text to "far-right" . Any seasoned editor should know such behavior is beyond reckless and clearly disruptive. Springee (talk) 00:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back. LivinAWestLife (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Vandalism is vandalism and is not funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a very low tolerance for trolls, especially in contentious topics. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Also worth noting that there are jokes, and then there are "oh hell no" situations. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

There are several people who feel the current discussion of political ideology of the Republican party is non-neutral. Disruptive drive-by edits actually make correcting such problems harder rather than easier. So please stop. Simonm223 (talk) 12:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

There was over half an hour in which the edits in question were live before they were reverted by a third party so "minutes at most" doesn't seem very applicable. If you really have a primal urge to vandalize an article, there is a correct way to do so without disrupting the wiki - see WP:HTVC. Departure– (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Extremely unbecoming to do something like this during a major political transition. This causes thousands of people to further distrust Misplaced Pages. It could even be outright dangerous. Even more ridiculous to hide behind humor. I'm not anyone important but I want to convey to you directly how outrageous I find this to be. Garnet Moss (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Couldn't you have just used inspect element? Doombruddah (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

You're taking a very long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. Doombruddah (talk) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back» and there are no consequences? XavierItzm (talk) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

If there's no further disruption and they've recognized what they did was wrong and committed to not do it again then a trout is likely sufficient. Of course if there's further disruption that would be a different matter entirely. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

They've gotten a level four vandalism warning and are now put at the end of their rope. In my opinion, everything is in order here. Per above, disruption either won't continue, and if it does, further sanctions will follow. Departure– (talk) 16:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Per the idea that blocks etc should be preventative not punitive, I agree that no further action seems like the correct option. Certainly LivinAWestLife is/should be clearly aware that their actions were not acceptable and I agree that they slid to the end of the rope. However, absent additional actions like this we are probably done. Springee (talk) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Editor repeatedly reverting edits

Cambial_Yellowing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor is starting editwar again, just reverted my edit, and has done this before with these edits A and B, repeatedly.! I tried to communicate on talk page but editor just went away! For such behavior the editor has been blocked before

This editor last time also pushed me to violate WP:3RR , While i was trying to improve the SIF article by moving criticism out of the theology section to separate criticism section, as per WP:CRITS where it is clearly mentioned

"In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title, for example, if there is a large body of critical material, and if independent secondary sources comment, analyze or discuss the critical material."

Because, before this, i was reading similar article, Minjung theology and the criticism section make it easy to understand.

I don't know why the editor doesn't understand Theology and criticism are not the same thing, which is common sense, but I was punished for using my common sense before, and now this again! Sokoreq (talk) 02:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, Sokoreq,

First WP:ANEW is the noticeboard to report edit-warring, secondly, you haven't provided any diffs of edit warring and, first and foremost, no one can "push" you to violate our guidelines on edit-warring, take responsibility for your own mistakes. Liz 02:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Also, ANI should be where you come when other methods of communication have failed. Have you started a discussion on the article talk page or posted to their user talk page about your differences? Give it a shot before coming to ANI. Liz 02:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry@Liz actually before this, i went on your talk page to discuss and waited for days, and about previous revertes i have provided edit warnings. Sokoreq (talk) 02:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's your action, not theirs. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

They are the one who started removing/reverting edits repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on talk page to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are doing again. Plese see SIF edit history. Sokoreq (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It's good you have accepted that mistake, but you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen again, no matter what another editor "starts". WP:3RR is a bright line. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, Sokoreq, that was my fault, I'm behind responding to talk page messages, I apologize for that. But I didn't mean that you should post a template on Cambial Yellowing's user talk page that was more suitable for a new editor (and they have been editing for over 5 years), I meant actually talking through a discussion. I can see that another editor already posted on their User talk page about the article talk page, you could have joined that discussion or posted on the article talk page. Again, my apologies about my lack of responsiveness. Liz 02:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

They edit in group, while i started a discussion first but then first editor didn't explanation much and went for a week, again today I tried on talk page but didn't receive any reply, I apologize for any inconvenience but this is very new for me. Sokoreq (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I respect they are senior editors, but I don't understand what they are upto and there is some discussion on the associated talk page for months is hard to understand. The talk page is messy; it's difficult to understand who is who and what is what? Sokoreq (talk) 02:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Science_of_Identity_Foundation is related to this. Sokoreq's response to being reverted was to baselessly accuse an editor of COI and harassment . When someone else reverted them they too were accused of harassment . After the COIN discussion didn't go their way, they continued to double down on COI accusations: . This latest report is more of the same. Despite being directed there numerous times by several editors, they still have not posted on the article's associated talk page - ever. I suggest that a WP:BOOMERANG sanction is appropriate here. - MrOllie (talk) 03:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Are we sure they understand? Moxy🍁 03:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

@MrOllie Yeh, I went to the COI noticeboard a week ago. It's closed now, because I didn't have evidence to prove. and the editor was also repeatedly reverting without explanation and suddenly went for a week. I have discussed the matter with that editor on my talk page. What do you want to prove through this? Sokoreq (talk) 03:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

• Sokoreq, that article talk page is quite an immense discussion on one specific aspect of the article that has nothing to do with your interests so I'd just start a new discussion there. I also see that you just removed a discussion on your user talk page with User:Hipal from your own talk page and asked them not to post on it any longer. You will not get very far on a collaborative editing project if you refust to actually communicate with editors you have disagreements with. Actual discussion, with opinions, arguments, diffs and sources with other editors is how consensus is formed on this project. But you can't seek to eliminate every editor you disagree with or you will not be editing here for a long time. It can be challenging but every editor on this project has to find a way to work with editors who have differences with and that is usually accomplished, not through coming to a noticeboard but by presenting a solid argument on an article talk page and convincing other editors that your position is stronger. But ANI doesn't exist to get rid of other editors who revert you. If edit-warring is an actual problem, which doesn't seem to be the case here, then post a formal case at WP:ANEW. Liz 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. Liz 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I read over Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Science of Identity Foundation discussion and I haven't said anything to you that you weren't already told at COIN. What is your resistance to having a discussion on the article talk page? That should be your first destination when you have a disagreement, not ANI. Now, I'm going to stop because I'm just repeating advice that you've already been given. Liz 04:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Liz, this is really helpful. I hope they will communicate.! Thank you for creating space on the discussion page. I will keep this in mind for next time. And for formal cases, I will post on WP:ANEW. Thanks again Sokoreq (talk) 04:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Usually, when an editor returns to their edit war after being blocked, without once contributing to the article talk page discussions, they are blocked.

I think a good case can be made for Sokoreq is WP:NOTHERE , those diffs () show an inability to work with others and take accountability for their own actions. The subsequent canvassing, here and here and the behavior that led to this discussion show that it's unlikely to end without further intervention. --Hipal (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know what you're up to, but from the beginning, I was just trying to understand your disagreements. But, you went away for days. I don’t have anything personal against you now, and I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above. I will discuss any future disagreements on the article's talk page. Thanks Sokoreq (talk) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above That's not what you did, and that's disruptive. --Hipal (talk) 00:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Hipal, can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? Liz 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be any olive branch being offered. The comments from Sokoreq, here and elsewhere, have me wondering if they are using an AI or auto-translator to communicate with us. I see very little understand of what's being written, less still of actual policy, all while downplaying or ignoring, often misrepresenting, their own behavior. --Hipal (talk) 02:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Trolling at Talk:Denali

Done (for now). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• 2600:1700:9366:e040:506c:d71c:7e0b:3528 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

WP:RBI please. Jasper Deng (talk) 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:AIV? Tarlby 17:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No response there; strictly speaking it might not be the most obvious vandalism in any case.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I have requested protection for the talk page. I'll see how it goes. I have suspicion of meatpuppetry/canvassing from 4chan. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected now, thanks User:Isabelle Belato Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

• IP blocked and page protected for a short period. I'm guessing this first month we will see a lot of these types of editors. Isabelle Belato 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
  • @Isabelle Belato and Acroterion: Needs talk page access yanked too.--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

    Done. Isabelle Belato 18:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Meatpuppetry/tag teaming at Conor Benn

Resolved. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Conor Benn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

EWN report stalled, so bringing this here. User:GiggaHigga127 and I engaged in an edit war at Conor Benn, which began as a content dispute but is now more of conduct issue. Less than 12 hours after he was blocked (for good reason), User:Dennis Definition shows up as a brand new single-purpose account to make the exact same edit for the "win", whilst predictably denying any connection. How is this not gaming?

I'd be happy to hash out the original content dispute at WikiProject Boxing and see if anything needs tweaking at our style guide, but not when there's obvious bad faith tag teaming going on. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It's an LTA trying to cause trouble. Blocked now.-- Ponyo 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I've restored it to the pre-socking version and Daniel Case has semi-protected the article.-- Ponyo 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Appreciated. Discussion at the Project forthcoming. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Potential Block Evasion by IP 47.67.231.5 (Original IP range 47.69.0.0, first sock IP 80.187.75.118)

An IP is behaving similary to an IP range blocked by last November. The orignal block was later extended due to block evasion.

The location of these IP addresses are all quite similar, which I have attached below.

Banned Blocked IP

Banned Blocked IP Sock

Suspect Second blocked IP Redacted II (talk) 22:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

EDIT: The IP is now banned blocked, with the original IP's ban block extended by another three months. Redacted II (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BLOCKNOTBAN - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction on my wording. Redacted II (talk) 23:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Harassment and personal attacks

Riventree called another editor and myself a moron, said to track down the editor who approved the DYK, and called me an idiot. SL93 (talk) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Indef'd. Completely unacceptable behavior. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but indef for a user who has, generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked once? Daniel Case (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It did. And 'indefinite' is not 'infinite'; once they acknowledge their error, the block can be lifted, but not before. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. I would further posit that a user who has been around for fifteen years really ought to know not go on the attack like this. There are ways to discuss content you don't agree with, there was no need for the blown gasket here. I edit conflicted with the above I also was going to add that Indefinite does not mean infinite, they can request an unblock as soon as right now. Beeblebrox 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. Cullen328 (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this: 'twas a crime of passion (politics got the better of me)- I really would hate for Misplaced Pages to get drawn into the petty politics of the USA). Since when was a DYK about feminism about petty American politics? I don't usually deal with unblock requests so I'll leave this for another admin, but I don't think they entirely understand why their behaviour is considered problematic. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It looks to me like they understand what they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the why (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I tried to see if I could convince them to understand and apologize for it, and I'm confused about why a long-time editor would go off the rails about feminism or politics. It wasn't fruitful. I wish you admins good luck. SL93 (talk) 02:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Per our own internal classification (e.g. WP:GGTF/WP:GENSEX) it is formally a "contentious topic", and the article feminism is in the {{political ideologies}} navbox. While it might initially seem confusing that a thing called "feminism" could be a political subject, it has been one for about the last century (e.g. suffrage is a central aspect of politics, and civil rights for women in the United States were often pursued through legislation and jurisprudence). Moreover, many issues that do not directly involve the apparatus of government are often referred to as "political" if they are the center of substantial cultural discourse or disagreement. jp×g🗯️ 11:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I have heard people use the phrase "track down" in colloquial speech for decades, and in the overwhelming majority of cases (when applied to a person) it means to get in contact with, or locate:

• "The machine in booth 7 is shorting out again, I'm going to see if I can track down the repairman."
• "Someone track down the QC inspector and tell her these parts are out of spec."
• "When we get into town, we should track down a food truck."

I am not really sure why these sentences would, prima facie, constitute a violent threat. Perhaps if the speaker was loading a shotgun and wearing a blood-spattered "I HATE FOOD TRUCKS!" t-shirt -- but absent that, I would assume they just wanted a sandwich. In this case, I would assume the obvious straightforward meaning of the person's sentence -- that the person responsible should be admonished, or complained to, or sanctioned. jp×g🗯️ 11:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

So okay, I looked up the hook. Apparently, it was this:

... that the retelling of stories can focus on female characters to reflect the feminist perspective?

From time to time we do have some DYK hooks that are controversial or edgy, so I was expecting something like that, but this is not that.

I must confess that not only does this DYK hook not offend me, I am not even sure what part of it (the DYK hook) someone else might find offensive (the DYK hook). The best I can come up with is that bro was having a really bad day and decided to randomly flip out at the first thing that he found mildly politically annoying. This is really not great behavior, and probably it warrants some warning or admonishment or block. However, if someone has been editing for sixteen years with no problem, I feel like this is not a sign of utter incompatibility with a collaborative editing project, and I am inclined to grant the unblock request, as they have explained pretty succinctly what the problem is and I am fairly convinced they will not do it again. On this same page, a few sections up (Special:Permalink/1271035842#User:TTYDDoopliss_and_gender-related_edits), it seems like we have something of a recent precedent when someone is engaging in blatant personal attacks with regard to the topic of feminism: they are handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology, refuse to do so multiple times, and are only blocked when they go too far and it is unrelatedly discovered that they are a sockpuppet. Moreover, we can easily find many other instances of people doing and saying far worse stuff than this, dozens of times, and then all their buddies show up to glaze them at the ANI thread and they get a strong admonishment. I do think it's bad to flip out and call people idiots, but I don't think they need to be forever removed from the project. jp×g🗯️ 10:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

As a compromise between zero and infinity, reduced to two weeks. jp×g🗯️ 11:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@JPxG He very clearly did not explain or show why what he did was wrong, nor did he give an apology (which was halfhearted ay best) until prompted three times. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

TTYDDoopliss was blocked indefinitely for trolling by Canterbury Tail before being found put as a sock by spicy. Lavalizard101 (talk) 11:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Amended, thanks. jp×g🗯️ 15:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@JPxG: Did you discuss this with the original blocking admin beforehand? And I agree with voorts that they do not completely understand what they did was wrong. I don't think it's appropriate to change the blocking time without a consensus at this point. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

No, he did not, and I agree that this unblock should not have happened. This attempt to downplay "editor X should be tracked down" by comparing it to tracking down spare parts is frankly bizarre. You shouldn't be unblocking people if you don't understand why saying that (even if not serious) can be extremely scary to that editor, who now might need to worry about a sociopath from the internet trying to hurt them. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Also RE the TTYD block JPxG should know that "what about X" isn't really a good argument on wiki. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

If you think I am lying (?) about this phrase being used in normal contexts, I will look it up in the dictionary. Here is what Cambridge's definition says:

to search for someone or something, often when it is difficult to find that person or thing:

I’m trying to track down one of my old classmates from college.

Dictionary.com says:

Follow successfully, locate, as in I've been trying to track down that book but haven't had any luck. This term alludes to the literal use of track , “follow the footsteps of.”

Collins says:

If you track down someone or something, you find them, or find information about them, after a difficult or long search.

She had spent years trying to track down her parents.

I'll go and have a quick word, then we'll track down Mr Derringer.

The last time I had flown with him into the Sahara to track down hijacked weapons.

There had been some spectacular busts in recent history, but even the FBI could not work fast enough to track down these people.

Do you think that "trying to track down her parents" implies that the person in the example sentence is a "sociopath" who is "trying to hurt them"? I agree that this was a very dumb choice of words, due to the potential for being misinterpreted, as can be seen above. Indeed, one of the examples (the last given) does imply hostility. I would not say this. I do not think that all of these dictionaries are engaged in a "frankly bizarre attempt to downplay" the phrase, nor do I think that is a fair summary of what I did. jp×g🗯️ 14:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm saying that I agree that there are other ways to read tracking someone down but it still wasn't appropriate to adjust blocking time without consensus. This was more than simply calling a person an idiot. They said Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page and And: You're an idiot for approving political flamebait for the front page. Their unblock rationale is not good enough, in my opinion. Just because incivility isn't enforced enough as it should be isn't a reason to just not apply it all. Indefinite does mean infinite, but the editor in question should come up with a better unblock request instead of simply waiting out the two weeks and going back to editing like nothing happened. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I suppose you may be correct. Well, I am going to bed; if a bunch of people come up and say the guy is really that much of a menace that the block needs to be lengthened, I will not be around to do so. I will abide my general practice on administrative actions, which is that if someone is so convinced of my idiocy they feel the need to undo it, then sure, I guess. jp×g🗯️ 15:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think you're lying, just a bit naïve. If someone says "Get this politically divisive Dog Whistle off the damned front page! And then track down the editor who put it there." on the internet to a stranger, the common sense interpretation is that it is a threat of violence. Your examples of other uses of the wording are all well and good when discussing in-person, normal interactions. But the pseudonymity of social media emboldens the craven. Threats of violence come easier to the keyboard fingers when the perpetrator is safely out of reach. Zaathras (talk) 14:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, when confronted, he said that it was not meant to suggest anything be done to the person: I mentioned no one by name,and suggested no action. Therefore neither puposefully OR blantantly nor would that constitute harrassment. This seems pretty straightforward to me, although I get that people want the guy gone, so do what you want. jp×g🗯️ 15:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: commute block to topic ban

Self-explanatory, I think. Riventree's outburst, and the follow up discussion on their talk page, show that they hold views incompatible with neutral editing about this topic. Furthermore there clearly was not consensus to unblock (the blocking administrator explicitly said no) and JPxG's cowboy admin action should not stand, but a wheel war isn't going to help anyone. A topic ban from AP2, gender-related controversies, and/or feminism as a broad topic, would serve to prevent future disruption in these sensitive topics; meanwhile Riventree can appeal the sanction later once they've taken time to reflect on their behaviour here.

• Support as proposer; interested in further comments on the scope of a topic ban. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 15:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Lengthen the block if you want. jp×g🗯️ 15:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• They've made a total of 135 edits since the beginning of 2022, 17 of which have been in the last 24 hours. I'm not sure how much a topic ban really matters. Never the less, I'd support a topic ban as a bare minimum, especially considering their follow up edits to Retelling (1, 2. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't think a topic ban is needed. This editor has never edited in that area before and I presume will not after this debacle. I would like the indef to be reimposed until we actually get a sufficient unblock request. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Considering this is such an old account and the bad edits are all recent, is it possible we're dealing with a compromised account situation? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Problematic edits in the AMPOL area and with other users aren't recent. Never say never, but judging from some of their older edits:

  • : unsourced switching of the language from "break free" to "resisted arrest" in the Killing of Rayshard Brooks. (Followup conversation at Eeng's talkage, wher they justified the change as original research ; note that at the time, the BLP policy still applied to Brooks so accusing him of a crime without a source is a major no-no)
  • Removed the fact that the counterfeit bill Floyd was accused of having was a $20 bill with the edit summary "Exclude trivia" in Murder of George Floyd.
  • : Changed "it is widely believed that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" "it feared that U.S. President Trump will lose the election in November" with the edit summary "Forgive me, I abhor emotion-laden politics, but this is actually relevant here" - note how it is very similar to the language and tone they used at DYK yesterday
  • User talk:Andy Dingley/Archive 2020#Do you even READ my comments anymore, or do you just click "revert" out of habit? shows the same pattern of coming in very strong with personal attacks and aspersions, then backing down and apologizing a while later.
    • Similarly on other talk pages Did you just revert it because you hate change, or was there some actual reason?
  • Talk:Holocene extinction/Archive 3#Softening of exceedingly authoritative language and some attempting to desribe the Holocene Extinction as "theoretical", something something "the knee-jerk alarmists who were happy to simply assert human causation as the cause of an eco-disaster".
  • Tried to make the article Millennium Challenge 2002 more neutral by adding an unsourced paragraph called "The Argument Over 'Scripting'". When questioned on the taklk, they justified this by saying UM, no. It's just deduction. It's certainly not 'military propaganda', because the neutrality flag pointed out that the military perspective (not side, not propaganda) wasn't included at all. 1.

  Additionally, and I find this especially relevant given @JPxG's concerns about a double standard because they weren't "handheld through the process of giving a perfunctory apology", they were given a final warning for harrassment and personal attacks by Yunshui in 2020.. Follow up here:, though I obvious do not know the severity of what Riventree did, given that it apparently needed revdel. Can any admin give insight? GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Whether the account is compromised or not I don't think we want to have an editor who responds this way to something as bromine as the idea of the feminist retelling editing in the various contentious topics that this overlaps. I'd want to see such a TBan encompassing at least WP:GENSEX broadly construed. As for AP2 I'm a bit worried of the tendency of Americans to turn every social issue into a domestic political issue, especially immediately following a governmental transition but AP2 needs fewer hot-heads, not more, so I'd be weakly supportive of that one too. Simonm223 (talk) 19:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• I do not think that a topic ban is the solution to this problem. The colloquial phrase "track down" can certainly be used benignly as the various quotes above show, but context is all-important. In this case, as it was actually used in the context of the rage filled rant, I read it as either a threat of outing (most likely) or a threat of violence (distinctly possible). In my opinion, this editor needs to show a deeper understanding of why what they said was intimidating and totally wrong. Cullen328 (talk) 20:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: Reinstate indef

A discussion is needed on this to prevent WP:WHEEL from applying. Proposal is pretty much the title, reinstate indef until a more convincing unblock rationale is made.

• Support as proposer. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support with the conditional modifier that I would like to see the tban discussed in the proposal above remain in effect should they subsequently become unblocked. Simonm223 (talk) 19:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose reinstating indef, support gensex/ap2 topic ban. If they can't handle that, then indef. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support It shouldn't have been lifted in the first place. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support per Voorts and the long pattern of sub-optimal behavior and previous warnings as documented by GreenLipstickLesbian. GLL, as for the revision deleted content, in the process of mocking an editor they disagreed with, this editor linked to another website that criticized the mocked editor and outed a third editor. It was ugly in general but linking to the outing was what led to the revdel. Cullen328 (talk) 21:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support given the history—particularly the outing, which correlates with the “track down” comment in the current case. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 21:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Anonymous8206

Editor using Misplaced Pages as a social network blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Anonymous8206 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Disruptive (soapbox, forum) and personal attacks at Donald Trump for over a year. Examples: .

They have been warned on their talk page multiple times for this, e.g.: Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BLP policy applies to every living person, even Donald Trump. I think a topic ban from all things Trump, broadly construed, is called for here. Cullen328 (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Another example of using talk pages as a forum on an unrelated topic: Special:PermanentLink/1268615581#Liddle Hart. I think a final warning rather than a TBAN would be appropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I've indef'd this user as not here. Per X-tools, 152/182 edits (83.5%) are in talkspace, 105 are to Talk:Donald Trump in particular, and 3 are to mainspace. Apart from the problematic Trump edits, most of this user's other edits appear to be similar forumy posts or musings on random talk pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two editors edit warring and attacking others while whitewashing fascism of an individual

(non-admin closure) Both editors indeffed for edit warring and violating WP:HID. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 23:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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As the title suggests, this includes:

• SuvGh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Making personal attacks such as "Enough of explaining r@cist Brits what to do", "you're probably an ignorant British man", and has tried to remove relevant content about 4 times now.

• Camarada internacionalista (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Has tried to remove the reliably sourced content 3 times, and used rude editor summaries like "disgusting argument". Has no activity on talk page or anywhere else to address his edits. See WP:COMMUNICATE.

Both of them were sufficiently warned. Capitals00 (talk) 02:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Blocked SuvGh for 24 hours for personal attacks in edit summaries and violating 3RR in spirit if not in letter (slightly over 24 hours for four reverts but blatant edit-warring). Camarada internatcionalista hasn't breached 3RR but is edit-warring, I'll let another admin decide if they need a block as they aren't currently editing it appears. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

That talk page section they made should have been removed for being a WP:FORUM attempt to disparage sources on grounds of national origin. Borgenland (talk) 03:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Camarada internacionalista has made 2 more reverts now. Capitals00 (talk) 05:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I have blocked both editors indefinitely. Hate is disruptive. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 05:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 - personal attacks

2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs) I saw an IP making an unmistakable personal attack on one user (telling them to resign for being "worthless"), and all of their edits are like this, it seems. I think that the /64 edits from a few days ago on the Denali situation are enough to say that they're the same user on the IP, given the political nature. I'm almost certain they're abusing a larger range than this, as zooming out to the /42 shows more political badgering. A previous /64 in that range was blocked as well for similar reasons. Departure– (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I blocked. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Just for the one IP, though - the range is unblocked, looks like. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I was sleeping, but good to see action being taken. :) E_F 13:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Incivility and edit-warring

After being explained by Wiznut at 1.00am UTC today about how even discussing through edit summaries while reverting in good faith is edit warring, Thelittlefaerie has opened a discussion on the article talk and stopped edit warring. Additionally, they are now aware that making personal attacks is prohibited and have issued an apology to editors they attacked while in a heated argument. As a talk discussion is now open for content issues, and this user now seems aware about how we resolve disputes here on Misplaced Pages, I am closing this section with no prejudice to it being re-opened should subpar behaviour recur. I think a little WP:ROPE is justified here as they are a new editor, who now knows about the dispute resolution processes and is now engaging collaboratively. MolecularPilot 06:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This is concerning user User:Thelittlefaerie (talk and contributions). A new user, who initially made several good faith mistakes related to providing sources and not using original research. However, he also decided that the Afghanistan population at List of countries and dependencies by population needed to be correct. A history of the edit war, which involved Thelittlefaerie vs three other editors (including me):

Users involved:

Thelittlefaerie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Wizmut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

MIHAIL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Magnolia677 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Dates:

20 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie changes the figure without a source, which is reverted by me. For this article, unsourced changes happen regularly, so I did not take the effort to give Thelittlefaire much explanation.

21 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie tries again, this time using a source, but an unreliable one.

22 Dec 2024 : I revert, mentioning the selection criteria for this article's sources. Thelittlefaerie reverts, and also reverts an unrelated change. I leave it, and instead start a topic on the talk page.

26 Dec 2024 : User User:MIHAIL (talk and contributions) changes the figure back to an official source. (yes that government does use google drive links)

3 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie changes it back to his version, and in the edit summary he uses the phrase "This is your final straw."

7 Jan 2025 : MIHAIL changes it back. His edit summary in full: "why insist with UN or copies of UN when you have official data ?... i've seen Thelittlefaerie vandalize certain pages... the official matters, not fanaticism". In a vain attempt to help matters, I add a footnote to the Afghanistan entry detailing three different estimates.

16 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie again, this time including in his edit summary "And now you are acting like a complete fool. I am DONE WITH THIS. You are just a terrible person." and also "Either stop or I'll keep making edits." This edit was particularly troublesome, not only for the incivility, but because he reverted over a dozen unrelated edits. This was reverted by User:Magnolia677.

17 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie says he "could not reach out to you Magnolia677" (I can see no such attempt) and reverts again. This again reverts over a dozen unrelated changes, so I do the revert this time, and also try to warn Thelittlefaerie on the talk page and on his user page.

22 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie comes back and reverts, without affecting other entries and without incivility. After this, he finally posts on the talk page, with the argument: "I am putting the right source and this is the right version. Please do not change."

I would like help in responding to this user, who has exhausted my patience.

Wizmut (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Magnolia's user talk page is extended confirmed protected, due to WP:LTA-related issues, so their story of trying to reach out to her but failing does check out. Both their behaviour and edit summaries are completely unacceptable, however. MolecularPilot 04:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It does seem like this could have gone to WP:ANEW. But since it is here now, I'd like to hear from User:Thelittlefaerie. They don't edit every day so I'm not sure when they might show up. I think discussion would be more effective than a block as they could end up being blocked over days when they aren't even on Misplaced Pages. Liz 04:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello! Thelittlefaerie speaking. My final message be put in simple words, I necessarily don't think that the population of Afghanistan would be 35M which the google drive link states. There are many reasons supporting this. First of all, if you look at a number of sources showing the population of Afghanistan in 2006, it shows it as 31-32M. It has been 19 years since that official estimate (I believe) and I really don't think that the population of Afghanistan in the year of 2023-2025 would be 35M. Second of all, Afghanistan has one of the highest fertility rates in the world right now, which in response to the following reverts, do not relate or make sense. Thirdly and lastly, I have visited Afghanistan myself and is a full blooded Afghan and I can assure you there are way more than 35M people This leads me to believe that the USCB or UN estimates are more thoughtful. Thank you. Thelittlefaerie (talk) 05:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, Thelittlefaerie! Thank you for raising these points. ANI is, however, for conduct issues, not content issues - we don't assess whether what you were trying to do is valid but analyse your behaviour including comments like "terrible person" and "complete fool". It is good to see that your more recent commons are becoming more civil and engaging with other editors in a collaborative manner, like and which afterwards you started a discussion on the article talk after an editor, Wiznut, informed you of how to do this.

I think if you can apologise and agree to not make personal attacks against other editors again, and refrain from edit warring (which it seems you have now learned about and stopped, by starting a Talk section and not continuing to discuss in edit summaries of subsequent reverts) and engage on the talk page section you started we should all be able to move forward civilly and collaboratively here. If this doesn't reach a consensus, you can seek dispute resolution.

Thank you for your contributions trying to improve the article, I understand how frustrating some things can be as a newcomer and thank you for learning from your mistakes and working with us here! MolecularPilot 05:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

In response, I apologize and agree to not make personal attacks on other people. I was frustrated, but that is not an excuse for me. Thank you for your cooperation. Also, we should update the page on Afghanistan too as that says it has 35M.

Thank you,

Thelittlefaerie Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Please ignore my latest message, I meant to send this to another talk page Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

(I mean the Afghanistan page updating.) Thelittlefaerie (talk) 06:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Update: Since the closure of this thread and after TFL found the talk page section and the two-way discussion began, MIHAL (already notified of this discussion above), using an edit summary containing personal attacks (they have been advised to apologise for these) reverted the changes by thelittlefaerie (made prior to joining the talk), which thelittlefaerie then reverted. Both users have now been informed by me that there is no "right version" for the article to be on while the talk page discussion occurs and so I think everyone is ready to collaborate and come up with a compromise, now understanding how talk discussions work, so this doesn't need to be reopened. Hopefully we can all find a solution together! :) MolecularPilot 21:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Swagsgod

(non-admin closure) Swagsgod blocked and TPA revoked. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:12, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Can User:Swagsgod please be swiftly blocked? They are constantly creating inappropriate pages. They are listed at AIV, but the stream of new pages continues quite rapidly. Fram (talk) 12:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Looking into it. jp×g🗯️ 12:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeffed. Here is an example of the stuff they are spamming:

• Multimedia Group is the largest independent commercial media and entertainment company in Ghana. Founded in 1995 by a Ghanaian entrepreneur, Mr. Kwame Appiah, the company has grown from humble beginnings with 12 employees to directly employing some 700 people across its 6 radio brands, 3 online assets and Ghana's first free multi channel television brand in over 25 years of operation. The Multimedia Group has been a major spur for the growth in the advertising, creative arts and entertainment industries, particularly the gospel music industry. The Multimedia Group Go For God
• Certify your English anytime, anywhere Test online, no appointment needed Get results in 2 days A fraction of the cost of other tests

etc. jp×g🗯️ 12:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I went through their contribs and deleted the spam pages (most of which had already been tagged properly by @Fram:). Let me know if I have missed anything. jp×g🗯️ 12:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. Their user page is extremely bizarre, but somehow gives the impression that they want to accuse the former president of Ghana of some "high criminal offense"? I guess deleting that one would be advisable (it certainly wouldn't lose anything of value). Fram (talk) 12:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Gone. —Kusma (talk) 12:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

What? You didn't believe that the user behind gibberish such as Ordinary BBC at a temperature of unknown figures higher than the melting point of gallium, and 29" as you see Visualize Sunday,29Th October, 2025 Alarm 4:48pm UTC... from a Primark Bank Account which values an unregistered license sports cars in different variables used in Analysis was qualified to "Certify your English anytime"? Meters (talk) 12:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

They keep going on their talk page now, maybe yank TPA? Supreme_Bananas (talk) 13:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP Editor(s) continuously changing flags without source

The following IP Editor(s) have been making continuous changes to the flags on the Islamic State of Iraq page without any sources to backup their claims, when the changes are reverted, they just go back and revert the revert and still provide no source, thus causing what I believe to be an unnecessary disruption.

2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:d12c:6979:d06c:9d74, 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:ec:5fe:fa19:caa0, 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:7c47:7be6:c3c9:7078 and 2a01:e0a:b3f:b4a0:6d71:4017:3ed8:b70d Catalyst GP real (talk) 14:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

142.190.62.131

Long-term abuse possible proxy vandal operating out of Alabama, vandalism-only account. Almost all edits to their talk page before the three-year-block are warnings or include Huggle tags(see tak page hist). The reason I'm reporting this user on ANI instead of AVI, is because of the user continuing to vandalize Misplaced Pages after blocks that sometimes took years to expire, one time even two years, which might fall under chronic intractable behavioral problems. This user is currently blocked for 3 years after I already reported them at AVI, but will likely continue to vandalize Misplaced Pages again after the block. This user has been vandalizing Misplaced Pages since 2020. The IP is from Alabama and belongs to a company named "Southern Light, LLC". I don't know if the user is actually operating out of Alabama, or if they are using a proxy. I've seen multiple IPs from the "142" range that are vandalizing Misplaced Pages or contributing unconstructively, although I don't think they have much to do with this user. Their edits to the page "Athenian democracy" didn't get reverted for over two years. Three of their edits got deleted, including their first edit. RaschenTechner (talk) 15:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

IP addresses generally do not correlate to a person. In most cases, they are randomly assigned to a customer on that ISP, then cycle around to another random customer. If there's a long history of petty vandalism, it could potentially be a school, library, public transportation, or some other shared IP with lots of users. Every so often, I think, "I should write an intro to IP addresses", but the best I've come up with yet is User:NinjaRobotPirate/IP editors. And while there are peer-to-peer proxies and VPNs all over the place, there's generally little reason for normal users get worried about them. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

IP range edit warring on variety of Canadian politics articles

An IP range user (2001:1970:4AE5:A300:B41C:DB9F:DF8D:6321 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) has been adding contentious or poorly sourced material to a variety of articles related to Canadian politics (including BLPs). I haven't been able to warn them as the IP changes frequently but did let them know here why I reverted their additions. They've also been causing problems in other articles with unreliable sources or poor information eg 1 eg 2.

The user does not appear to be interested in building an encyclopedia productively. Citing (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Tried notifying them here for what that's worth. Citing (talk) 17:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• Could I please get some help here? IP has continued warring and reverting other users all day and spamming talk pages with irrelevant URLs. Edit warring examples: . Throwing a bunch of irrelevant URLs at talk pages: . Also appears that they're using 2605:8D80:662:E1A9:50D1:410C:7C35:3C07 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

I've checkuser blocked the /64 range as this is  Confirmed block evasion. The individual behind the IP has at least one account that is indef blocked, and the range itself has been blocked twice previously for disruption.-- Ponyo 22:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks very much, User:Ponyo. And this IP as well? Paul Erik 22:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks Paul Erik, I got that /64 as well.-- Ponyo 22:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you! Citing (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Abusive user

Valid vandalism revert of an edit that clearly looked like vandalism. That Shaggydan did not mean to vandalize is good, but it does not change the fact that any reasonable editor would have taken the edit as vandalism; editors are not expected to read minds. Shaggydan is advised that they have full responsibility for all edits made by their account, including those made by code they choose to run on their machine. I suggest they find something better to do than argue about this. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 17:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Moved from the help desk. Courtesy link: Opolito (talk · contribs), filed by Shaggydan (talk · contribs), moved by Departure– (talk) 17:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

User Opolito is flagging users, including me, for vandalism when there is no vandalism. Who is able to restrict his account and remove his warnings and how do I bring this to their attention? Shaggydan (talk) 15:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a matter for the Administrator's Noticeboard for Incidents. Be sure to read the rules there before posting your situation. Departure– (talk) 15:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@Shaggydan. User:Opolito has flagged you for vandalism for this edit of yours. After he flagged you for vandalism on your talk page, you called him a swear word and then he flagged you for personal attack. And, it seems like the warnings he gives to other Users seem genuine. Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 15:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@Shaggydan: - Let me caution you before bringing it to the notice board, your uncivil behavior such as this will very likely also be scrutinized. Furthermore by looking at this edit, I would suggest that it is very possible you will be the one facing sanctions. TiggerJay (talk) 15:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@Shaggydan: Do you have a browser extension which automatically changes "Trump" to "Drumpf"? It may not have been your intention to make this change in edits but it looks like vandalism. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter Thank you for being the first person to review my concern. As I mention on my Talk page, you are correct. As I mention there, I removed an extraneous word from early in the article. The only use of the word "Trump" occurs in a few titles in the reference section. I would have thought Misplaced Pages would not allow extensions to make edits. I was mistaken in my understanding of the security of the site's code. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. Opolito has acted in bad faith in this case and multiple others. Do you know how to invoke some supervision on his account? Shaggydan (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

You caused damage to the encyclopedia with that dumb browser extension, then blew up with actual personal attacks when someone came to the obvious conclusion that this constituted intentional vandalism. Get rid of the extension and stop trying to get others sanctioned for a situation of your making. Manufactured outrage is not a valid currency here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 17:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. You seriously don't understand how someone could reasonably see changing Trump's name to Drumpf could look like vandalism? BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 17:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

User Departure- moved this topic to this page and it appears to be the appropriate forum for my concern. I will add further detail to support my initial statement.

I recently made a minor edit to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1270798753&markasread=333745816&markasreadwiki=enwiki&oldid=prev&title=Character.ai. A sentence early in the article read, "Many characters are be based on fictional media sources". I deleted the word "be" and explained my edit in the comments. There were 3 uses of the word "Trump" in titles in the reference section. Nine years ago TV show Last Week Tonight put out a Chrome extension that changes that surname to its original European spelling of "Drumpf". Unbeknownst to me the extension changed the three instances of "Trump" to "Drumpf" in citations of a page about a website that had nothing to do with politics or individuals with that name.

Despite not changing any names in the article (only the reference titles) and making a constructive change to the article which was explained, Opolito assumed bad faith and slapped a vandalism warning on me. There was no discussion with me. A user of 1 year failed to follow the rules on reporting vandalism. It is my understanding this subjects me to a possible ban should he do this again. I am requesting any notation of vandalism be removed from my account.

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Vandalism states "vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a 💕, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge" and "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." Following the rules laid out on that page I cannot understand how someone would flag the edit for vandalism. I brought this up in the talk section of my page. He responded it was my responsibility to make perfect edits and claimed I was complaining "the dog ate my homework". He write on my Talk page, "Your edit does not fall under "good faith" and was clearly vandalism. Your very poor excuses aren't convincing anyone." His response illustrates his obliviousness to what constitutes bad faith.

He then left a warning about attacking other editors claiming I may be blocked from editing because he did not like my response to his false claim of vandalism in my own talk page. I have been a small editor for decades. I don't know how to make claims against others to manage their accounts, but he seems to have done that twice to my account. I am requesting any damage he did to my account be undone.

I am not the only user to have this problem. User NoahBWill, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/User:NoahBWill2002, who 12 days ago started on his talk page, "Opolito, my friend, this is Noah B. Will; Why do you have to accuse me of vandalism? I've only been just trying to help out, that's all."

Twenty two days ago a user wrote on his Talk page, "Ciarán Hinds is a Northern Irish actor. The infobox clearly states that he was born in Northern Ireland. Do not accuse people making factual changes to a dictionary of being 'not constructive' again." Opolito's response shows he neither understands that Northern Ireland, where Hinds was born, is not part of Ireland AND he continues to falsely charge users with malpractice even when he himself is wrong saying, "being born in Northern Ireland is not the same thing as being Northern Irish. The sources that describe his nationality at all describe him as "Irish". Misplaced Pages article reflect what the sources say. Changing an article to reflect your opinion instead of what the sources say is not allowed. Please do not continue to do so."

29 days ago user Wilvis1 added an appropriate fact to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Crisfield,_Maryland. He supported the fact with a link to a local business making the claim. Opolito accused Wilvis1 of posting spam. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Crisfield,_Maryland&action=history. It clearly was not spam.

On December 5, Opolito threatened another user. That user responded, "You were also clearly threatening me of a block warning when I clearly did nothing wrong. I ask you kindly to please stop threatening me with your block notification messages on my talk page. You keep making up stuff and said just because I removed it, I didn’t like it, that is NOT were I’m coming from, I explained it to you three times in my edit summaries and yet you refuse to listen. Please chill with your edits and just listen for a moment before this gets out of hand. 2.56.173.95 (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)"

These examples are just from users who have mentioned recent issues on his Talk page. His edit history confirms a pattern of abuse. A quick look shows on January 20 on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/David_Lynch he threatened user Vinnylospo with bring blocked from editing for adding "unsourced or poorly sources material" calling it a "final warning". Vinnylospo had added the page to the Category for January 2025 California Wildfires. The Hollywood Reporter, as referenced in the article, has reported Lynch's condition severely worsened upon being forced to evacuate due to the fires just before his death. Despite this, Opolito took offense at the inclusion of the category and again threatened a user who had made a good faith edit.

I find this behavior deeply concerning and contrary to Misplaced Pages's mission. I just try to make the site a little better where I see errors or things that need cleaning up from time to time. I do not pretend to be versed in all the mechanisms in place for one user to harm another. I know enough that vandalism procedures were not correctly followed by Opolito in my case and others and that takes away from the site's mission. I hope this is in the right place and that something can be done to prevent this from continuing to occur. Shaggydan (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User using multiple non-account IPs to mass-remove information

• 93.204.189.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2003:D3:FF39:B51E:70D0:BF68:E7ED:B8DA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 2003:D3:FF39:B598:98F3:BF2A:47F0:FB06 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Those three accounts all appear to be the same person, who is doing mass removal of information with minimal to no notes. I have reverted some of their edits on Gerald Butler (writer) (because they removed information that I added and sourced myself), but user continuously reverts. After quickly going through their other edits, it doesn't appear they are making any constructive edits. I'd love some help dealing with this issue.--Bricks&Wood talk 18:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Their edits at Gerard Butler don't look unreasonable to me, trimming information that, while sourced, is tangential at best to the subject of the article. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 23:53, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Does this edit summary warrant redaction per BLP

Edit summary revdel'd and GreatLeader1945 (talk · contribs) blocked for one week for edit warring. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Apologies if this is the incorrect location, is a BLP violation and may need redacting. Flat Out (talk) 22:52, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Per WP:REVDELREQUEST, you should privately contact an admin for revision deletion (or OSers for oversightable material). I've deleted the edit summary. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I've made a note of that. Flat Out (talk) 23:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

revoke TPA for User:Xpander1?

Done. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:03, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I guess I shouldn't since it is me that they are deliberately pestering with nuisance pings after being asked repeatedly to stop. I know I could have muted them, and I now have, but I shouldn't have had to, they should just stop acting so obnoxious. Beeblebrox 23:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Category:

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