Talk:Soviet war crimes: Difference between revisions

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			* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#War crimes and atrocities) is no longer available because it was ] before. <!-- {"title":"War crimes and atrocities","appear":{"revid":15850159,"parentid":15836612,"timestamp":"2005-06-26T00:31:28Z","replaced_anchors":{"Early History - LSSAH - SS-VT":"Early history - LSSAH - SS-VT","Trial by Fire":"Trial by fire","Foreign Volunteers":"Foreign volunteers","Concept - Training":"Concept - training","War Crimes and Atrocities":"War crimes and atrocities"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":142127310,"parentid":142121790,"timestamp":"2007-07-03T00:03:50Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} -->

			* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Soviet Union perpetrated crimes) is no longer available because it was ] before. <!-- {"title":"Soviet Union perpetrated crimes","appear":{"revid":45692164,"parentid":45689903,"timestamp":"2006-03-27T11:33:19Z","replaced_anchors":{"circa 1985-: Lord's Resistance Army v. Ugandan Government (kidnap, rape, and forced murder involving children)":"Circa 1985-: Lord's Resistance Army v. Ugandan Government (kidnap, rape, and forced murder involving children)"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":627467273,"parentid":627381741,"timestamp":"2014-09-28T22:01:13Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} -->
	== German POW in Russia ==
			}}

	I read that many German prisoners of war died (mostly of starvattion) while in Russian custody, i.e. that only 6000 of initially 90000 captured during the battle of stalin grad came back alive. That is obviously mistreatment of pows. isnt that a war crime as well? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:05, 3 August 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Given that the Soviets were themselves ] in that period - a famine largely due to the invasion - I would say not, unless reputable sources suggest otherwise. ] (]) 21:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
	::Yes, had enough food or medication been available for the Soviet population, the starvation of German POW would be a crime. However, in actuality, it was not.--] (]) 23:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

			== Unilateral controversial move undone ==
	The incessant handwringing over the fate of the poor, innocent Germans (not!) at the hands of the evil, savage USSR (as well as the disingenuous disclaimers by the partisans of a supposedly peaceful, pastoral USSR) should really give way to a more balanced examination of all of the information on both sides, now that the Cold War is 22 years dead. Almost NONE of the articles in Wiki regarding the campaign waged by Nazi Germany and its allies on the USSR, or the counter-campaign by the USSR against Nazi Germany and its allies come anywhere near even -approaching- a neutral PoV. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:41, 10 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Anybody who has good sources is welcome to contribute to this and other articles in Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 05:59, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
	::We have ]. ] (]) 19:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

			This article was ] to "Soviet crimes against humanity" with the rationale, "{{xt\|Crimes against humanity includes war crimes. A war crime is not necessarily a crime against humanity.}}" This was a controversial move, that should have gone through ]. The rationale that was given in the ] is exactly right but argues against the move that was made, not for it. Crimes against humanity are a subset of war crimes, and may be covered in this article, or, the topic could be covered briefly in this article ] as a ] summary, with a separate ] about Crimes against humanity containing most of the detail. If you disagree, please follow ] and start a discussion proposing a new title. Thanks, ] (]) 07:18, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
	== Objectively and independently? ==

			:For the record, the claim that "crimes against humanity includes war crimes" is : {{quote\|Whereas crimes against humanity may only be committed against civilians, most war crimes may be committed against both civilians and enemy combatants. A crime against humanity must be committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack upon a civilian population; there is no such requirement for a war crime. An isolated act could qualify as a war crime, but not as a crime against humanity. Nearly all of the underlying offences which could qualify as crimes against humanity would also amount, all other conditions being met, to war crimes, but the converse is not necessarily true.}} (] · ]) ''']''' 20:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
	Why is there so much text without any proof? Or with reference to the same source. This sounds like slander and does not seem to be true. For example, in the section of Poland. Reliably known only Katyn, the rest need to be proved. ] (]) 09:02, 14 January 2013 (UTC) Mysterios

			== No mention of burglary? ==
	== Polish artist Jerzy Bohdan Szumczyk installs scuplture in Gdansk to remember women raped by Russian soldiers ==

			There have been many documented cases of burglary, robbery and theft of items and buildings by Soviets in many European countries including especially Poland that I feel should also be mentioned here. ] (]) 16:46, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
	In October 2013, Polish artist Jerzy Bohdan Szumczyk errected a life size monument in Gdansk, Poland, in rememberance of the women raped by Russian soldiers. The monument depicts a pregnant women and a Russian soldier standing over her, grabbing her hair and putting a gun in her mouth. Authorities removed the sculpture a few hours later as the artise had no permission to put it up. The Russian ambassadoer was enraged and in total denial of the mass rape committed by Russian soldiers. Jerzy Bohdan Szumczyk received a lot of support in various online forums in several countries. English Source: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/16/polish-artist-in-hot-water-over-soviet-rapist-sculpture/ and http://www.news.net/article/572837/Technology/ German source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/skulptur-einer-vergewaltigung-in-polen-schockiert-russischen-botschafter-a-928457.html Werner 22:24, 18 October 2013 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) Werner 22:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)</small>
			:This is covered in ], maybe worth linking ] (]) 12:44, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

	== ~~Estonia~~ ~~and~~ ~~Lithuania sections~~ ==		== American war crimes ==

	~~Why~~ ~~are~~ ~~political~~ ~~repressions~~ ~~listed in this~~ article ~~that~~ ~~is about~~ war crimes? -] (]) 04:18, 11 ~~June~~ ~~2014~~ (UTC)		Where can i find an article on American war crimes? I didn't see one on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 11:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

			:Literally just type in ] — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 11:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
	== Further High Profile Evidence of Russian Gang Rape of German Women in 1945 ==
			::How many American soldiers have been convicted of war crimes? By an international court? In the Hague? ] (]) 20:24, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
			:::]. — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 20:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

			== Crimes against humanity category removal ==
	The wife of former German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, Hannelore Kohl, has been gang raped at age 20 by Russian Soldiers in May 1945. As a consequence, she sustained a serious life long back injury either by being pressed against a stone or throw out of a window. Hannelore Kohl committed suicide in 2001. She had been suffering long and serious illnesses that experts thought of as the consequence of childhood trauma. These details were published in the news journal Der Spiegel, Nr 12, 11 June 2011, pages 36 - 41. Further details are published in the biography "The Woman at his Side: Life and Suffering of Hannelore Kohl" (Die Frau an seiner Seite: Leben und Leiden der Hannelore Kohl) by Heribert Schwan. 2011. München: Heyne Verlag. Werner 13:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> Werner 13:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

			] is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. ] (]) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
	== Undue weight ==
			<!-- Message sent by User:Buidhe@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Buidhe/messages&oldid=1207219674 -->

			== Chechnya deportations ==
	Undue weight is being given to Senyavskaya's opinion. This is not an article about Beevor's book, and we don't need to devote an entire paragraph to something that can be summarised and combined into the paragraph above. Rzheshevsky's view is given one sentence and so should Senyavskaya's opinion. --] (]) 21:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

			i added a lot of content to that section, but i fear that it may be too much, if anyone wants to remove some less important information (things that may be better covered in its own article), feel free to do so (as long as it doesn't impact the section too much or remove anything of importance).
	:Why should she be given only one sentence when she has an entire article devoted to the issue?
	:I removed one of the sentences mentioning Beevor, but I don't see why the others should be removed. -] (]) 21:57, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
	:Speaking of undue weight, why do you think that Kohl's wife should be mentioned here? -] (]) 22:06, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

			i will probably create/expand sections on the Kalmyk, Meskhetian Turk and Karachay deportations once i have more time too by the way.] (]) 06:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
	::That's not how ] works. If Senyavskaya's claim that rapes were only a small component of overall Soviet War Crimes is true, then having lots of text about it runs counter to that proposition by making rapes the focus of this article. Rzheshevsky's view is given one sentence, why should Senyavskaya be given more? Kohl's wife is mentioned in ], probably undue here. --] (]) 22:12, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

			== Rape in Serbia ==
	:::Why do you make Senyavskaya dependent on Rzheshevsky?
	:::The rapes are already made a focus of the article by other sources. The text cited to her responds to those sources. -] (]) 22:18, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
	::::How is Senyavskaya more important than Rzheshevsky, that you have to give her more weight than Rzheshevsky? --] (]) 22:55, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::::This is not a popularity contest... Both are important, but Senyavskaya's criticism is more detailed. -] (]) 23:01, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
	::::::However ] applies. That's policy. Senyavskaya is just repeating similar things to what Rzheshevsky has said. If people want to read Senyavskaya in more detail they can go to the source cited in the reference section. --] (]) 23:05, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::She is not repeating the same thing he says. Even if she did, I don't see what WP:UNDUE has to do with this. -] (]) 23:21, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::Both are referring to Beevor, and both are claiming he is repeating Goebbel's propaganda. Claiming ] with respect to ] isn't a valid argument. You have not provided any justification for attributing more weight to Senyavskaya than Rzheshevsky. --] (]) 23:29, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::The only thing they say that is the same is that the accusations originate from Nazi propaganda. -] (]) 00:01, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::::You still haven't given a justification why Senyavskaya should be given more prominence over Rzheshevsky. --] (]) 01:16, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::::You still did not explain why she should not. -] (]) 01:51, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::::::I've already pointed you to ], the onus is on you to explain why ] doesn't apply in this case. --] (]) 02:18, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::No, you did not explain how it applies here. -] (]) 03:22, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::] applies everywhere, it is policy. I agreed with your view that mention of Kohl's wife in this article was undue, so don't suddenly claim you don't understand what ] means. --] (]) 03:44, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::I know what it means, but how does it apply to Senyavskaya? -] (]) 04:02, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::You have given disproportionate coverage of Senyavskaya's views compared with other historians, see ]. --] (]) 04:28, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::That is because Senyavskaya published more on the subject than Rzheshevsky. And you are ok with Naimark getting his own paragraph? -] (]) 04:45, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}
	I don't think that is the case, Rzheshevsky has published several books. This thread ] has come to my attention, the fact that you have been running a parallel discussion with an admin indicates your bad faith approach to this discussion generally and unwillingness to seek consensus. --] (]) 20:58, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	:That is because of your reverts without consensus. -] (]) 21:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	::What reverts? I've been discussing it here on talk for the last couple of days. You seemed to have complained to an admin during that discussion, which indicates that you believe your arguments are weak and thus need admin intervention to help you get the upper hand. --] (]) 22:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::To refresh your memory: . And that is only in this article.
	:::Also, don't get confused; I notified the admin about reverting in the other article. -] (]) 23:24, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
	::::Sorry, but the first edit your cite was not a revert, there was no previous identical version to which that edit reverts to. It was a regular bold edit per ]. The second edit was a revert, but then you followed up with your own revert before we began discussion on talk. The fact you subsequently attempted to get admin intervention while we were in the middle of discussing the issue on talk indicates an apparent level of duplicity which has poisoned any good faith that may have existed. --] (]) 01:11, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
	:::::Again the admin intervention was for the other article. Bring it up here over and over is disruptive.
	:::::Maybe it would have been wise for you to make changes only after some discussion. I mean if you claim that you were acting in good faith...
	:::::Also, a partial revert is still a revert. -] (]) 07:04, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
	*I agree with Nug - see my comment . ] (]) 19:40, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
	:Well this was expected... You could of at least tried not to sound just like Iryna Harpy in the other article. -] (]) 20:50, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

			The sources on this page claim 121 rapes were committed by Red Army troops in Yugoslavia, but , also written by Djilas, states the number was 1,219, and that's the information on the ]. Are the already existing citations misquoted for this page? ] (]) 08:11, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I would like to make two points here.
	#The material about ] () is completely unrelated to Russian historians. This may be "due" or not, but this should be discussed separately. There is no consensus whatsoever to exclude this material (which has been included previously by someone else).
	#There is no doubt (per vast majority of sources) that such crimes indeed had happened on significant scale. Therefore, opinions by historians, who in essence deny everything, belong to ]/insignificant minority view. For example, we do not use people involved in ] as sources about ]. By the same reason, we should not cite Soviet crimes deniers on this page, but only in pages about themselves. ] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
	:Your comparison to holocaust denial is way off. There is no consensus for the mass rape claims; this is just your opinion.
	:The text about Kohl's wife was added by Nug recently, but he then agreed that it does not belong here, see above.
	:You should read the previous discussion carefully and not make changes without consensus. -] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
	::According to Gareev , "''he had not even heard about sexual violence''" ". This . Now, speaking of Senyavskaya (the initial concern by Nug), this source is particularly terrible: she is trying to promote the ridiculous idea that Soviet soldiers were victimized by European women, because these women were so easy to rape (which undermined moral values of Soviet soldiers) and because these women transmitted venereal diseases . ] (]) 14:19, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
	:::I don't know what you are talking about. Where did you get that? -] (]) 21:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
	::::According to , «Все немки развратны. Они ничего не имеют против того, чтобы с ними спали» ... Немцы перед отступлением, а также сейчас, на занятой нами территории, стали на путь искусственного заражения сифилисом и триппером немецких женщин, с тем, чтобы создать крупные очаги для распространения венерических заболеваний среди военнослужащих Красной Армии», and so on, and so on. Such are sources you are using. ] (]) 22:05, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
	:::::So what is wrong with that? She did not write that herself, but is just quoting some primary sources. The quotes are part of a section devoted to primary sources. -] (]) 23:10, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
	::::::Yes, she is using Soviet-era primary sources to justify the following mutually exclusive ideas: (a) that rapes never happened; (b) it was OK to rape them because they deserved it, and (c) European women undermined moral of Soviet soldiers by giving up too easily and by transmitting them venereal diseases. That advocacy piece belongs to WP:FRINGE. ] (]) 13:07, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::This is just your interpretation of it. None of the points you made are true. The documents are brought up to challenge the Western image of the aggressive and primitive Soviet soldier and show that Soviet views on intimate relations were more conservation than the ones in many European countries. -] (]) 21:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
	::::::::I am sorry, but direct quotation in Russian (see above) is very clear. She repeats statements like "all German women are whores" to justify her views that mass rapes were not at all committed (as stated in the beginning of her article) or that everything was consensual. ] (]) 16:31, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::You are again misrepresenting what is written there. She does not say that about German women or that everything was consensual. I guess you see only what you want to... -] (]) 03:52, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
	::::::::::How dare you claim that I misrepresented the source if she tells in the first phrase of that mass rapes by the Soviet Army is a ] that came from the ] and ... Western propaganda? The whole chapter is entitled "According to the recipes by Goebbels" (Here is the quote: "Одним из самых распространенных антироссийских мифов на Западе сегодня является тема массовых изнасилований, якобы совершенных Красной Армией в 1945 г. в Европе. Свое начало он берет еще с конца войны – из геббельсовской пропаганды, а затем из публикаций бывших союзников по антигитлеровской коалиции). ] (]) 17:16, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::::You should read carefully. I was not talking about this particular statement of yours. -] (]) 20:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
	::::::::::::Sorry, but . She was caught with falsifying data. She should not be cited anywhere, especially if she criticizes others, which I think is such context counts as a BLP violation. ] (]) 14:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::That is just laughable. Solonin is not a real historian and it is a blog. -] (]) 15:55, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

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Unilateral controversial move undone

This article was recently moved to "Soviet crimes against humanity" with the rationale, "Crimes against humanity includes war crimes. A war crime is not necessarily a crime against humanity." This was a controversial move, that should have gone through WP:RM#CM. The rationale that was given in the edit summary is exactly right but argues *against* the move that was made, not for it. Crimes against humanity are a subset of war crimes, and may be covered in this article, or, the topic could be covered briefly in this article summary style as a parent article summary, with a separate child article about Crimes against humanity containing most of the detail. If you disagree, please follow WP:RM#CM and start a discussion proposing a new title. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 07:18, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

For the record, the claim that "crimes against humanity includes war crimes" is not accurate:

Whereas crimes against humanity may only be committed against civilians, most war crimes may be committed against both civilians and enemy combatants. A crime against humanity must be committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack upon a civilian population; there is no such requirement for a war crime. An isolated act could qualify as a war crime, but not as a crime against humanity. Nearly all of the underlying offences which could qualify as crimes against humanity would also amount, all other conditions being met, to war crimes, but the converse is not necessarily true.

(t · c) buidhe 20:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

No mention of burglary?

There have been many documented cases of burglary, robbery and theft of items and buildings by Soviets in many European countries including especially Poland that I feel should also be mentioned here. 174.115.15.87 (talk) 16:46, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

This is covered in World_War_II_looting_of_Poland#The_Soviet_Union, maybe worth linking Cloud200 (talk) 12:44, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

American war crimes

Where can i find an article on American war crimes? I didn't see one on Misplaced Pages. 212.5.158.115 (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Literally just type in American war crimes — Czello 11:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

How many American soldiers have been convicted of war crimes? By an international court? In the Hague? 213.91.249.187 (talk) 20:24, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a forum for general discussion of the topic. — Czello 20:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Crimes against humanity category removal

Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Chechnya deportations

i added a lot of content to that section, but i fear that it may be too much, if anyone wants to remove some less important information (things that may be better covered in its own article), feel free to do so (as long as it doesn't impact the section too much or remove anything of importance).

i will probably create/expand sections on the Kalmyk, Meskhetian Turk and Karachay deportations once i have more time too by the way.177.83.128.215 (talk) 06:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Rape in Serbia

The sources on this page claim 121 rapes were committed by Red Army troops in Yugoslavia, but this source, also written by Djilas, states the number was 1,219, and that's the information on the Serbian version of the rape during the liberation of Serbia. Are the already existing citations misquoted for this page? JPHC2003 (talk) 08:11, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

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