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* ] <small>(March 2007–September 2009)</small> * ] <small>(March 2007–September 2009)</small>
* ] <small>(October 2009–September 2010)</small> * ] <small>(October 2009–September 2010)</small>
* ] <small>(October 2010–June 2024)</small>
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==Protection?==


HAN-CHINESE POPULATION IN SOUTH KOREA IS NOT 800,000 THOUSAND. MAJORITY OF CHINESE NATIONAL LIVING AND WORKING IN SOUTH KOREA ARE KOREAN CHINESE ( CHOSUNJOK, OR KOREAN RESIDENT IN CHINA). THEY ARE NOT HAN-CHINESE. THEY ARE KOREAN. NO SUCH THING AS HAN CHINESE. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 10:33, 14 August 2016 (UTC)</span></small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->




Caucasian race article is protected, and the article is shorter than Han Chinese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/Caucasian_race
https://en.wikipedia.org/Caucasian

==Number of Chinese in South America is VERY QUESTIONABLE==
Anyone from that region can shed some light on it?

:I'm not from there, but having lived in Brazil for several years I can estimate the number is correct. I lived in a small city of approximately more than 100,000 people. While most "Asians" I knew (or knew of) who lived there were 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation Japanese - at least several thousand including ones who were mixed with another Ethnicity like Italian or Portuguese. To my knowledge, I had one young student whose family moved there for work from Peru who was ethnically Chinese and trilingual (Mandarin, Portuguese and Spanish). Later I saw an ad for a local dentist.Her last name was Wang. Now a small family and one doctor are totally anecdotal, but if we estimate AT LEAST 5 people in a town of roughly 100 thousand people, we can easily extrapolate the numbers given as a portion of the total population of Brazil (around 180 ~ 190 million if I recall correctly). Japanese are the dominant ethnic group from Asia with around 1 million in São Paulo metro area alone. ] (]) 15:32, 21 March 2015 (UTC)Tom in South Florida

==Chinese in Cuba are less than 300==
Please fix it, ffs. Proofs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwAHYxE59_I and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVEOMLWllEY

==No Mao Zedong==

travesty <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 10:07, 13 September 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Obviously the English version is run by white washed Chinese cunts and White thrash. They don't even know what are: "Unification" and "Nuclear Power (WMD)". Check out the Chinese version, Mao Zedong picture is there.

==Infobox: Notable people representing Han==

I've updated the infobox with a mosaic of notable Chinese Han. The previous pictures mainly focused on Han people that have lived/are living in the 20th and 21st centuries, which obviously isn't an accurate representation of the entire history of the Han ethnic group. It's also much more cleaner looking than the previous mess of pictures. The following are rationales for the inclusion of each picture, and what they represent:

*]: Representing Modern ]
*]: Representing ]
*]: Representing China in the early 20th century
*]: Representing modern China
*]: Representing Confucianism in ]
*]: Representing ]
*]: Representing ] in ]
*]: Representing ]
*]: Representing ancient ]
*]: Representing ]
*]: Representing Modern ], as well as Taiwanese Han Chinese and American Han Chinese
*]: Representing ]
*]: Representing ]
*]: Representing ]
*]: Representing ]
*]: Representing the ] and the unification of China

Any objections? Due to PRC/Taiwan political issues, I deliberately avoided ] and ].--] (]) 01:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

:I like the historical and cross-disciplinary balance, but can't but notice that 11/12 of the figures are men. ] (]) 20:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
::That's an unfortune artifact of a society that has been largely patriarchal for most of its history. The same can be seen with other historically patriarchal societies: the image for the article on ], which has 4 women for 27 men, the article on ], which has 2 women for 25 men, and the article on ], which has no women. I think there could be a way to incorporate more women, like the ] to represent the ], but I wouldn't be sure who to replace. This is a tough problem, suggestions? --] (]) 23:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
:::What about ]? and also can you rearrange the placement? Leaders on 1st row, philosophers on 2nd row, and others categorized in 3rd and 4t row? And for each row do it chronologized order (eg. Qin Shihuang, HanWudi, Tangtaizong, Sun yatsen).--] (]) 00:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
::::I'm hesitant about ], her reign is too close to ]'s. However, I do want to see one of the Soong Sisters represented, perhaps ] for Taiwanese Han Chinese. But, I'm against ordering it chronologically or by field. It goes against precedence, and nullifies one of the aims of the infobox picture, to compare and contrast notable Han from different time periods and different fields.--] (]) 00:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
::::], famous female Chinese poet, could be included. Would represent Song Dynasty poetry.--] (]) 01:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
:Planning on expanding it to a 5x5 to include more entries. That leaves 9 open entries. --] (]) 01:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

:So far leaning towards: ] (space travel), ] (Qing dynasty), ] (Singaporean Chinese), ] (Song poetry), ] (mathematics), ] (Taiwanese Chinese), ] (modern Chinese literature), and ] (Chinese cinema pioneer). Of these, Qiu Jin, Cixi, Li Qingzhao and Soong May Ling are women, which would up the count to 5.--] (]) 01:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
::Collage has been changed. There are now 6 women, and better quality pictures. --] (]) 04:43, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
::Empress Dowager Cixi was a ], not a Han.] (]) 17:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Yes, thankfully I remembered to look her up before I started the collage, since I wasn't sure about her heritage (other than that she was an Empress of the Manchhu Qing Dynasty, but that didn't necessarily mean she wasn't Han). Didn't add her in, so there's nothing to worry about. --] (]) 04:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
::I would like to nominate some westerners who are of Han Chinese ancestry for consideration, like ] or ]. →] (]·]) 19:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
:Don't forget ]. He may be the most well-known poet through the whole Chinese history.Besides,he is a notable artist, calligrapher, pharmacologist...-- A rare universal genius.--] (]) 05:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Needs more northern chinese. Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhuge Liang, Zhang Zuolin, Zhang Xueliang, Yuan Shikai, Lizicheng???? Almost all everyone in the collage is a southern chinese.

==Pictures==
Upon looking at the pictures of the selected Notable Han Chinese, I cannot deny that Jiang Qing(江青) is definetely a notable one. But what the hell, why don't you include Qin Hui(秦桧) as well? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:54, 12 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: He represent ].--](Kèyì) 19:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

== Overseas Chinese ==

Are we counting all Overseas Chinese as Han? I'm pretty sure the U.S. Census, for instance, only counts "Chinese" as an ethnicity and doesn't distinguish among ethnic groups from China. ] (]) 22:37, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Someone should clarify this, as the values stated on this article are quite different to those on (http://en.wikipedia.org/Oversea_Chinese). On that page the term "Overseas Chinese" refers to those of Han Chinese ethnicity living outside of China, or more broadly. For example in this article it is stated that there are 296,623 Han Chinese in the UK, whilst on the (http://en.wikipedia.org/Oversea_Chinese), the number is 500,000. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:26, 17 May 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Religion==

Despite this section containing much positive writing about religious harmony and tolerance, etc. I see no mention of Falun Gong. Curious. ] (]) 14:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Why should a cult that have only been around for 20 years warrant a mention on an article dealing with the Chinese people? There have been many other cult/religious movements in Chinese history that have been far more important and impactful and yet they rightly receive no mention. Why should Falun Gong recieve special treatment? You an initiate of FLG perhaps? ] (]) 23:38, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
Falun Gong is noteworthy today, just like if you were to talk about Christianity denominations, you wouldn't dismiss sects like Seventh Day Adventists or Mormons, they would still at least get a mention, no? <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Ethnicity or Panethnicity?==
Maybe it should be more clear that there are many groups within Han, and by some measures do not constitute a single group <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Some groups like Hakka were dismissed historically as Han, even though they migrated from traditional Han areas of north China (proper) like Shandong to southern provinces like Fujian, however there customs like round houses are pretty endemic to them. Therefore, does that mean historically southerners were not Han?

Also some Han people in the Gansu and Ningxia regions have traits perhaps inherited from the Tungut, like larger noses and eyes, their ethnic appearance is vastly different to those of the eastern provinces. When Empires like the Tangut or dynasties collapses, the people and their genes, don't all just vanish overnight. There is a lot of inter-mingling with conquered people, be it even through forced coercion (rape). Also the Hui, are consider a different ethnic group, when sometimes 'Hui people' are just Han who practise Islam, a Hui person from Gansu, will have nothing perhaps in common ethnically with a Hui from Xiamen. This is when ethnicity and religion get confused with ethnic-religious groups like Jews.

Obviously Han people must have a lot of genetic influences assimilated considering the vast terrain inhabited by them. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:21, 4 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

What about those that have a multi-ethnic background? In the PRC, you have to be classified in a box for your ethnicity. Some children may have parents that have 2 or more backgrounds, yet they can only tick one box for identity? This kinda pigeonholing rationale is the norm in China. Some Han parents may choose a non-Han category at birth just to gain better social benefits for the child, like added points on their gaokao score or the ability for the child have more more of their own offspring as minorities are exempt from the one-child ruling. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:01, 4 December 2014 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== % of total world population ==

The side bar states:
1,310,158,851
19.73% of global human population

Currently there are 7,013,903,621 humans (http://www.census.gov/population/popclockworld.html), this would mean that Chinese are 18.68% of the global human population. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Total population ==

The side bar states: total population: 1,310,158,851.

Where does this figure come from?
If you take the sum of the values that are stated on the page you get 1,279,516,635. So where's the extra 30,642,216 from? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Current day Han Chinese identity ==

Are you actually suggesting that the people who currently identify themselves as Han are genetically the same as the original people of the Han River area? This is like calling all European Americans "Anglo." The Anglos were a Germanic tribe who contributed the principal material to the English language. Many cultures and peoples have been subsumed or intermarried into the dominant Han culture over the centuries. This is how empires are consolidated; you convince all of the conquered people that they share a common identity. i think that this point should be clarified. If 92% of the current population of China is Han, how the heck did the Han reproduce so abundantly while all of the other tribes and cultures of this VAST country simply disappeared? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:33, 18 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:"There is considerable genetic, linguistic, cultural, and social diversity among the subgroups of the Han, mainly due to thousands of years of immigration and assimilation of various regional ethnicities and tribes within China." ] (]) 05:46, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
:Can someones elaborate on this a bit I was confused by the genetics section. On one hand someone described in detail the male pattern migrations, and on the other, out of nowhere some one post "there is little geographic-genetic dispersion from north to south". How much geneticly are chinese composed of assimilated population & how much are of the Han population? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Reliable source for DNA section ==

The author of this dissertation uses that evidence to indicate that most southern Chinese, including Cantonese are descended from Han from northern China marrying native women in southern China. The evidence are DNA studies of y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA testing of southern Chinese populations from Guangdong and Fujian and other areas in southern
China which indicate that a majority of southern Chinese have mostly northern Chinese y chromosomal DNA (paternal dna) and only a small amount of northern Chinese mitochondrial DNA (maternal DNA), indicating that most southern Han Chinese descend from an expansion of northern Chinese males marrying native women in southern China.

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA42#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

] (]) 21:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "northern Chinese males marrying native women in southern China.
"? Southern Chinese people were originally from northern China?! Are you meaning to say "Men in Northern China are not Chinese natives?"

== Religion section of Infobox ==

This is to discuss the minor dispute on the infobox's religion section. The Han Chinese are majority ], whether it be atheist, agnostic, humanist, secular, unaffiliated, or as User:AngeloDeLaPaz pointed out "spiritual", these would in all likelihood be grouped as irreligion in surveys. To leave out such a major tradition in the infobox is disingenuous (and I also think the section on ] should be expanded to include the irreligious as well, as seen in the article ]). There are many articles on ethnicity/nationality that includes the irreligious. Most noticeably that of the more atheistic nations, ], ], ], ], ], ], etc. even the ] article notes the "]", which could very well include the "spiritual". On the point of labeling ], ], ], and ]/Shenism as the "traditional religions", I think we should first define what is considered to be traditional to the Han Chinese. ] and ] came to China quite early as well, just two to three centuries after Buddhism in the former's case. If you are referring to '']'', that is not as much a description of the religious traditions of the Han Chinese than it is a description of the philosophical tradition. --] (]) 23:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

== Han Chinese subgroups ==

I noticed that the article for ] just redirects to this main article. Is there any plan for a subsection for this subject. The category ] also applies to this main article, quite erroneously. I'm not sure whether this would go under the Culture or Genetics section. →] (]·]) 20:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

== Request for a "subgroups of han chinese" section ==

That lists the ethno linguistic groups of han chinese. Cantonese, Min, Sichuanese, Hakka, Northerner etc... as well as differences in culture, beliefs, genetics, etc... <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 07:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

''LARGEST ETHNIC GROUP? INDO-EUROPEAN IS LARGER''
I think that the Indo-European ethnic group is larger, comprising 700 million people in Europe, another 700 million people in Western and Southern Asia and 300 million in the Americas.--] (]) 19:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

::Indo-Europeans have been trying for thousands of years to live a distinct identity from the rest of her neighbors... Han Chinese have convergence social norms and identity over the past thousand years. Completely opposite. That's like saying Indians are "White Caucasians" since they are Indo-European (Aryan race)... which is obviously not true. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Indo European is considered a linguistic group. It comprises several ethnic groups. ] /]/ 19:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
:My understanding was that "Han" was the correct and most useful grouping called "ethnic." Are Catonese, Min, etc. considered sub-ethnic groups?--] (]) 04:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

== Other uses of the character "Han" ==

Nguyen Emperor Minh Mang claimed that the Vietnamese had the right to call themselves Han people 漢人

http://books.google.com/books?id=py5Xh0-pw18C&pg=PA115&dq=minh+mang+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cOZSUqPkLcbgyQHVzYD4AQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=minh%20mang%20han&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=q5C3Sbe1iMoC&pg=PA209&dq=minh+mang+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cOZSUqPkLcbgyQHVzYD4AQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=minh%20mang%20han&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2j6GNiMMc1oC&pg=PA474&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue4/article_353.html

Minh Mang called Vietnam "Zhongguo" 中國

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-asia&month=9906&week=e&msg=28mq4qDZEWt3sD%2B6t6h/lw&user=&pw=

]

] (]) 04:12, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

== Better Bruce Lee Picture ==

It's very hard to see the facial features of a monochrome bronze statue. Perhaps a better picture is in question? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:16, 4 January 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Population by country ==

Some of these numbers seem to be inflated, for instance the figure for Chinese people in Indonesia is 8.8 million, while the article ] (which is a Good article by the way) indicates 2.8 million.

Also, I updated the number of Chinese Americans according to the 2010 estimate by US Census Bureau. --] ] 21:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

== Contributions to humanity ==

The "Contributions to humanity" section seems very excessive given the link to the main article, particularly the last huge paragraph. Moreover, no other ethnic group page that I have seen has a similar section, so is it really appropriate to include at all? It should be shortened to a paragraph or two at the very least, to match the other sections under "Culture". Or perhaps even moved out from under Culture. ] (]) 00:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

==Genetics==

Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/

http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15372031

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo%20Han%20culture%20paper%20(2004).pdf

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n6/abs/5201998a.html

Do not use the blog as a reference, but use it to find and cross reference other sources.

http://blog.renren.com/share/288113449/11798480444

Teochew, Fujianese, and Hakka Y chromosome compared in Singapore. The three groups largely share the same Y chromosome

http://scholarbank.nus.edu.sg/bitstream/handle/10635/27767/Summary.pdf?sequence=3

Differences between southern Han Chinese groups like Chaoshan, Hakka, and Cantonese is mainly in the mtdna lineage inherited from the mother, where some southern Han have heavy amounts of southern native mtdna.

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-XAYX201006005.htm

http://online4kim.net/xe/files/attach/images/7507/170/020/0b9b8d714566edea3954827c018a3c88.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6590358575_7450cf0f53.jpg

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2131/yndahan.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5609/2008112521014723.jpg

http://www.ranhaer.com/attachments/forumid_48/1308171634806ad8e74f2ed197.jpeg

http://www.ranhaer.com/index.php

], ]

有唐山公，無唐山媽

"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/

http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

Autosomal DNA

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/12/genetic-map-of-east-asia/#.U1XEV_k71C8

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/eastasiasmall.jpg

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003862

http://www.plosone.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003862&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003862.t001#

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/STq-lWLjfwI/AAAAAAAAAb0/wSNXMS5rG4o/s1600-h/journal.pone.0003862.g001.jpg

http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862g0011.jpg

http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862g0021.jpg

http://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/journalpone0003862t001.jpg

Title: Y Chromosomes of 40% Chinese Are Descendants of Three Neolithic Super-grandfathers

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.3897.pdf

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1310/1310.3897.pdf

Genetic tests on minority ] Y Chromosomes show them to be of Baiyue descent, while they have some Northern Han y chromsomes due to migration of northern Han to southern China.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17185165

http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A30.PDF

A map of ] ethnic groups in Southern China during the ]'s rule over Northern China.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif

http://s173.photobucket.com/user/MGSG/media/fig1mt72e.gif.html


http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/publication.htm

58 JIN Li, LI Hui, WEN Bo(2005) Genetic Structure of Han: Demic Diffusion of Han Culture. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall 15:110-117.
http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A25.pdf

57 LI Hui (2005) Genetic Evidence for Nationalism of China: One Root, Tufty Branches and Crossed Twigs. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall 15:118-133.
http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A24.pdf

☻52 WEN Bo, LI Hui, LU Daru, SONG Xiufeng, ZHANG Feng, HE Yungang, LI Feng, GAO Yang, MAO Xianyun, ZHANG Liang, QIAN Ji, TAN Jingze, JIN Jianzhong, HUANG Wei, DEKA Ranjan, SU Bing, CHAKRABORTY Ranajit, JIN Li (2004) Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han culture. Nature 431:302-305.
http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A20.pdf

http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/1publication2.htm

李輝 (2005) 從“五族共和”到“多元一體”：國族理論的遺傳實證. 國立國父紀念館館刊 15:118-133.
LI Hui (2005) Genetic Evidence for Nationalism of China: One Root, Tufty Branches and Crossed Twigs. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall 15:118-133.
http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A24.pdf

金力,李輝,文波 (2005) 漢族的遺傳結構：文化傳播伴隨人口擴張. 國立國父紀念館館刊 15:110-117.
JIN Li, LI Hui, WEN Bo (2005) Genetic Structure of Han: Demic Diffusion of Han Culture. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall 15:110-117.
http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A25.pdf

WEN Bo, LI Hui, LU Daru, SONG Xiufeng, ZHANG Feng, HE Yungang, LI Feng, GAO Yang, MAO Xianyun, ZHANG Liang, QIAN Ji, TAN Jingze, JIN Jianzhong, HUANG Wei, DEKA Ranjan, SU Bing, CHAKRABORTY Ranajit, JIN Li (2004) Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han culture. Nature 431:302-305.文波,李辉,卢大儒,宋秀峰,张锋,何云刚,李峰,高扬,毛显赟,张良,钱吉,谭婧泽,金建中,黄薇,黛卡-兰江,宿兵,查卡菩提-让纳杰,金力 (2004) 遗传证据支持汉文化传播的人口扩张模式.自然 431:302-305.
http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A20.pdf

http://plaza.ufl.edu/lqxu/blyshlee/pubzh.htm

���x.�ġ����干�͡�������Ԫһ�w����������Փ���z�����C. �������������ݹݿ�,2005.15:118-133.
LI Hui(2005). Genetic Evidence for Nationalism of China: One Root, Tufty Branches and Crossed Twigs. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall, 15:118-133.
http://www.yatsen.gov.tw/chinese/publication/index.php?p_id=15
����,����,�IJ�.�h�����z���Y�����Ļ��������S�˿ڔU��. �������������ݹݿ�,2005.15:110-117.
JIN Li, LI Hui, WEN Bo(2005). Genetic Structure of Han: Demic Diffusion of Han Culture. Journal of National Dr. Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall, 15:110-117. (Review).
http://www.yatsen.gov.tw/chinese/publication/index.php?p_id=15

WEN Bo, LI Hui, LU Daru, SONG Xiufeng, ZHANG Feng, HE Yungang, LI Feng, GAO Yang, MAO Xianyun, ZHANG Liang, QIAN Ji, TAN Jingze, JIN Jianzhong, HUANG Wei, DEKA Ranjan, SU Bing, CHAKRABORTY Ranajit, JIN Li, (2004). Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han culture. NATURE, 431:302-305.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/abs/nature02878.html;jsessionid=A411B392470754BC65D1D1C95B76D378


Pinghua population as an exception of Han Chinese's coherent genetic structure

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v53/n4/abs/jhg200837a.html

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v53/n4/full/jhg200837a.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18270655

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-008-0250-x

Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(09)00471-6

.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12939805

.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12903056


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0035920371901854

http://www.tropicalmedandhygienejrnl.net/article/0035-9203(71)90185-4/abstract


http://china.org.cn/english/2001/Aug/16896.htm

These articles are about HLA allele frequency, not Y chromosome or autosomal genetics (so if you read the charts and mistakenly assume they are talking about genetic closeness you will get ridiculous results, like Northern Han and Taiwanese being closer with Southern Han in another branch, and Singapore Chinese being close to Tibetans while Southern Han and Northern Han are in another branch). Don't abuse charts like these and claim they represent how genetically related people are to each other.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2816316/?tool=pmcentrez#!po=10.8696

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2973946/pdf/pone.0013458.pdf

==Historical Migration of Northern Han to Southern China==

http://books.google.com/books?id=6qeC_0u3pLIC&pg=PA78#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA213#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0DPEol7HO3gC&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA8&dq=On+the+other+hand,+the+diversity+of+the+southern+and+south-eastern+dialects,+and+also+the+archaic+character+of+several+of+them,+bears+witness+to+the+relative+stability+of+the+peoples+established+in+these+regions&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XJM8VJaPNvPhsAT24YDwDw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=On%20the%20other%20hand%2C%20the%20diversity%20of%20the%20southern%20and%20south-eastern%20dialects%2C%20and%20also%20the%20archaic%20character%20of%20several%20of%20them%2C%20bears%20witness%20to%20the%20relative%20stability%20of%20the%20peoples%20established%20in%20these%20regions&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA126&dq=At+the+time+of+the+troubles+which+marked+the+reign+of+Wang+Mang+(9-23)+and+the+first+years+of+the+Han+restoration,+Chinese+emigration+to+Yunnan,+Kwangtung+and+north+and+central+Vietnam+increased+considerably.+...&hl=en&ei=8wd5TqOiOcHv0gHxmtTrDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=At%20the%20time%20of%20the%20troubles%20which%20marked%20the%20reign%20of%20Wang%20Mang%20(9-23)%20and%20the%20first%20years%20of%20the%20Han%20restoration%2C%20Chinese%20emigration%20to%20Yunnan%2C%20Kwangtung%20and%20north%20and%20central%20Vietnam%20increased%20considerably.%20...&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=TQ4NAQAAMAAJ&q=China:+the+world's+oldest+living+civilization+revealed+john+makeham&dq=China:+the+world's+oldest+living+civilization+revealed+john+makeham&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VcE9VOCIL7SBsQTAu4G4CA&ved=0CB8Q6wEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=gernet+chinese&hl=en&ei=Lil5ToSdGaHL0QHP7emKDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=colonial%20great%20families%20endogamous%20north&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA182&dq=Yellow+registers+white+chin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LDgWU4PhEo3H0AHpnIHICQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20chin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA182#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=JTAcbF8cpQsC&pg=PA40&dq=Yellow+registers+white+chin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LDgWU4PhEo3H0AHpnIHICQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20chin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=126EsR8rpC8C&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=KS6sAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA181&dq=Yellow+registers+white+jin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8jcWU-GlF8Wj0QG89oD4DA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20jin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=0wRikR7hhFQC&pg=PA67&dq=Yellow+registers+white+jin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8jcWU-GlF8Wj0QG89oD4DA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Yellow%20registers%20white%20jin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=UNq3ENia884C&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=pCiNqFj3MQsC&pg=PA146&dq=However,+most+linguists+and+historians+believe+that+Cantonese+as+a+language+and+culture+began+to+break+away+from+proto-+Chinese+during+the+Qin+dynasty+(221–206+bce).+During+that+period+Han+settlers+began+moving+into+southern+China+from+...&hl=en&sa=X&ei=06Y8VPPrIZXesATSnoLICw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=However%2C%20most%20linguists%20and%20historians%20believe%20that%20Cantonese%20as%20a%20language%20and%20culture%20began%20to%20break%20away%20from%20proto-%20Chinese%20during%20the%20Qin%20dynasty%20(221–206%20bce).%20During%20that%20period%20Han%20settlers%20began%20moving%20into%20southern%20China%20from%20...&f=false

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/MGSG/fig1mt72e.gif


http://books.google.com/books?id=PNnfwOo-WdAC&pg=PA259&dq=Between+the+fourth+and+nineteenth+centuries,+perhaps+five+great+waves+of+migration+brought+Hakka+from+the+central+plains+of+northern+China+southward,+first+to+the+Gan+River+valley+in+Jiangxi+and+then+successively+into+the+rugged&hl=en&ei=mCGCTvT3GoTW0QHG4_ycAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Between%20the%20fourth%20and%20nineteenth%20centuries%2C%20perhaps%20five%20great%20waves%20of%20migration%20brought%20Hakka%20from%20the%20central%20plains%20of%20northern%20China%20southward%2C%20first%20to%20the%20Gan%20River%20valley%20in%20Jiangxi%20and%20then%20successively%20into%20the%20rugged&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=dVzLG1aqlNkC&pg=PA149&dq=–+HaKKa.+A+subgroup+of+the+Han+Chinese.+Most+still+live+in+Jiangxi,+Fujian,+Guangdong,+and+Taiwan.+Because+their+ancestors+were+immigrants+from+northern+China,+local+people+called+the+newcomers+hakka+(guest+families&hl=en&ei=vCGCTvanJYn50gHbsbF2&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=–%20HaKKa.%20A%20subgroup%20of%20the%20Han%20Chinese.%20Most%20still%20live%20in%20Jiangxi%2C%20Fujian%2C%20Guangdong%2C%20and%20Taiwan.%20Because%20their%20ancestors%20were%20immigrants%20from%20northern%20China%2C%20local%20people%20called%20the%20newcomers%20hakka%20(guest%20families&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=vAXnnu1oFhUC&pg=PA172&dq=His+best-known+book+on+historical+sources+for+the+study+of+the+Hakka+draws+in+part+from+Pang's+compiled+volume+of+Shung+Him+Tong+genealogies+to+provide+evidence+of+the+northern+Chinese+origins+of+the+Hakka.51+What+Pang+does+with+his&hl=en&ei=uSGCTurRE6ru0gGqq92eAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=His%20best-known%20book%20on%20historical%20sources%20for%20the%20study%20of%20the%20Hakka%20draws%20in%20part%20from%20Pang's%20compiled%20volume%20of%20Shung%20Him%20Tong%20genealogies%20to%20provide%20evidence%20of%20the%20northern%20Chinese%20origins%20of%20the%20Hakka.51%20What%20Pang%20does%20with%20his&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2E_5nR0SoXoC&pg=PA110&dq=In+many+parts+of+south+China,+these+%22guests%22+are+still+treated+as+outsiders+and+intruders+even+though+everyone+now+concedes+that+they+are+Han+Chinese.+The+Hakka+identify+themselves+as+northern+Chinese,+and+this+contention+has+some+basis&hl=en&ei=tCGCTpG0BcbZ0QG994mmAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=In%20many%20parts%20of%20south%20China%2C%20these%20%22guests%22%20are%20still%20treated%20as%20outsiders%20and%20intruders%20even%20though%20everyone%20now%20concedes%20that%20they%20are%20Han%20Chinese.%20The%20Hakka%20identify%20themselves%20as%20northern%20Chinese%2C%20and%20this%20contention%20has%20some%20basis&f=false



Anti foreign sentiment and blood purity among Southeastern Literati during the Tang dynasty

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA292&dq=There+gradually+grew+among+the+literati+and+the+officials+most+of+whome+came+from+south+east+china+that+the+intrusion+of+the+barbarians&hl=en&ei=OeWhTrSXCMjd0QH0rdmCBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=nOSZPne0zVwC&pg=PA85&dq=Chinese+scholar-officials+from+the+southeast,+who+had+risen+through+the+examination+system,+spread+the+idea+that+China's+moral+standards+and+superior+culture+had+been+polluted+by+the+decadent+barbarian-blooded+aristocrats+from+the+north&hl=en&ei=e-WhTsjDIsmP0QHq5KG5BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20scholar-officials%20from%20the%20southeast%2C%20who%20had%20risen%20through%20the%20examination%20system%2C%20spread%20the%20idea%20that%20China's%20moral%20standards%20and%20superior%20culture%20had%20been%20polluted%20by%20the%20decadent%20barbarian-blooded%20aristocrats%20from%20the%20north&f=false





http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA292&dq=literi+southeast+china+decadence&hl=en&ei=MC9-ToGuKKHd0QGnqdAR&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=literi%20southeast%20china%20decadence&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=hzsnT67gykkC&pg=PA51&dq=literi+southeast+china+decadence&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dsk9VJTILY_ksASZk4CgCA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=literi%20southeast%20china%20decadence&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=nOSZPne0zVwC&pg=PA85&dq=literi+southeast+china+decadence&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-Mo9VN_cOPiKsQSN8oGoCA&ved=0CEcQ6wEwBg#v=onepage&q=literi%20southeast%20china%20decadence&f=false

==alternate names==

Cantonese call themselves men of Tang, or Tang people, since they were descended from northern migrants from ] region who fled south during the Tang dynasty, and central plains people back then were called Tang people.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ERnrQq0bsPYC&pg=PA752#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=O72FhsxwzcAC&pg=PA37&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CD4Q6wEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

Cantonese dialect is close to Chinese language during the Tang dynasty

http://books.google.com/books?id=8OT_Sbk0yekC&pg=PA99&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fo087ZxohA4C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_-dJxMfdhvEC&pg=PA6&dq=cantonese+middle+chinese+mandarin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aGAUqnLC8flsATRgIGQBA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=cantonese%20middle%20chinese%20mandarin&f=false

14:42, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

==Millet-Rice Sinitic expansion from north to south==

Recently there have been edit in DNA analysis section where it talk about Sinitic expansion from north to south on the base on Sinitic connection to millet-rice. Although it is widely accepted that Sinitic expand from north to south,it is not under DNA analysis.

== Qing dynasty Aisin Gioro Y chromosome DNA found in several ethnic minorities but not found in Han Chinese ==

] Y chomosome DNA was found in "], Outer Mongolians, Inner Mongolians, ], ], ], and ]" males and number around 1 million people. Their ancestor was ]'s grandfather ], whose descendants made up the Qing dynasty nobility. But the Y chromosome was not found in the general Han Chinese population.

The Y chromosome cluster is specifically C3c, part of the General ], which Genghis Khan's lineage is a part of, although the Manchu Aisin Gioro Y chromosome is part of a different cluster than Genghis Khan's

The reason it spread among these specific minority groups, but not among the Han Chinese population, is because the Qing Manchu nobility was concentrated specifically in the ethnically Manchu ] and not in the Mongolian and Han Eight Banners, and the specific ethnic groups which made up the Manchu Eight banners were "Manchu, Mongolian, Daur, Oroqen, Ewenki, Xibe".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1285168/

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/pdf/S0002-9297(07)63394-1.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707633941

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/23

] (]) 22:14, 10 May 2014 (UTC)


== DNA section biased == == DNA section biased ==

The text in the DNA analyis is misleading The text in the DNA analyis is misleading


Line 490: Line 38:
{{reflist-talk}} {{reflist-talk}}


==Summary==
== Possible copyright problem ==
{{Main|List of political parties in China}}
] This article has been revised as part of ]. (See ]) Earlier text must not be restored, ''unless'' it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Misplaced Pages cannot accept ] text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of ''information'', but not as a source of ''sentences'' or ''phrases''. Accordingly, the material ''may'' be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original ''or'' ] from that source. Please see our ] for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously. <!--Signature-->] (]) 02:50, 16 July 2014 (UTC) <!--{{CCI}} end-->
The number of speakers derived from statistics or estimates (2019) and were rounded:<ref>https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/ethnic/2009-08/18/content_8582984.htm</ref><ref>https://www.ethnologue.com/</ref><ref>http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/help/top-100-languages-by-population.html</ref>

{| class="wikitable" style="font-size:100%"
== Problems with the title ==
1. "Han Chinese" gives people the impression that this article is only about the Han people in China.

2. For Misplaced Pages articles on other ethnic groups mainly found in China, we don't say "XXX Chinese". Instead, we say ] or ].

3. For Misplaced Pages articles on most ethnic groups in the world, we seldom see titles like "XXX demonym". For example, we don't use "Navajo Americans", "Ainu Japanese" or "Pashtun Afghans"; instead, we use ], ] and ].

For these reasons, I propose to rename the page to '''Han people'''. "Han Chinese" will be redirected to the page and noted in the first sentence. ] (]) 14:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

:This can be quite problematic, this differentiation is asking us to use the term "Chinese people" to mean "中華人"/"中國人" which are already covered by the articles ] (中華民族), ], ], and ], while "漢人" (alternatively Tang People "唐人") refers to largest ethnic group of China (and the world) regardless of nationality. As most people usually mean Han people when they refer to "Chinese" in general, and Zhuang, H'mông, and others are often referred to as "Minorities", but then again the popular name for the Hui's is also "Hui Chinese" so you ''might'' have a point. But another difference is that what most of the world calls "China" and/or "Chinese" and/or "Taiwan" and/or "Taiwanese" is Han, Ainu are a minority the largest ethnic group in Japan are the Yamato, Navajo are a minority as well as most U.S. Americans are Non-Hispanic German-Americans, Pashtuns are a majority in Afghanistan though, but they share their country with Persians/Tajik's and Baluch people. But Han are different as they are in fact what has always made up the "Chinese" population, and "Han" is only an alternative name, in Viet-Nam they're "Hoa" (Civilized people), in the Spanish East-Indies it was "Sangley", in Nusantara it's "Peranakan", and I can go on, placing "Chinese" next to the name is explanatory and in the context of the article maybe necessary.
:Sincerely, --] (]) 13:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

== infobox image problem ==

the image associated with Chien-Shiung Wu in the infobox appears to be an actor i recognize (but who's name i don't know), while the linked page is not him. Perhaps someone knows what to do to fix this. <span style="background-color:grey;color:navy;">]</span> 01:51, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

== Ancient DNA Reveals That the Genetic Structure of the Northern Han Chinese Was Shaped Prior to 3,000 Years Ago ==

While it's not really of utmost importance, I don't see why this paper should be at the bottom. If anything it should be at the top, like it previously was. If readers desire is to learn about "DNA analysis" or prehistoric origin of Han Chinese, this is by far the most up-to-date of the citations listed. It actually might even actually refute some of the material in the paragraph as well, or at least require the paragraph to be rebalanced. The origins of East Asians (or at least Han) in bronze age North China, in or nearby Henan, and expanding in ''all'' directions is something I've read many scholars assert. It's surely more informative than a vague "northern" vs "southern" grouping which downplays the complexity of the scenario. In any case, I won't take any actions as I don't feel it's my place to do so. Cheers ] (]) 00:19, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081204231050/http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/panama/ch_pa01.htm to http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/panama/ch_pa01.htm#3 {{sourcecheck|checked=true}}
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20121016092935/http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1835 to http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1835 {{sourcecheck|checked=failed}}

Cheers. —]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 01:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

== Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups ==

Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a ''Request for comment'' process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment ]. ] (]) 07:04, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

== Ip vandal ==

{{u|Zanhe}} {{u|STSC}} {{u|Nlu}}

We got a troll on the loose, trying to insert his own POV and agenda that southern Chinese are all Baiyue descendants and not Han people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/173.238.79.44



I've been rectifying the issue by adding reliable sources- all of which are by western historians. But this troll might come back to engage in an edit war and needs warnings.

] (]) 05:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

You aren't "rectifying" anything. There are a variety of genetic studies there. Non-PRC sources are more reliable, for obvious reasons. One of the genetic studies from the PRC makes an idiotic claim that "Han Chinese have a single language", which is unsupported by any credible linguist not censored by the PRC regime. The Sinitic languages are a group of distinct languages more different from each other than languages in several families around the globe. All of the studies show the closer genetic affinity, with regards to several markers, of Yue peoples to other indigenous groups of southern China who comprised the ancient indigenous ] kingdom, namely Tai and Austroasiatic speakers.

Cantonese is the official language of Hong Kong, NOT Mandarin and NOT some fake "Chinese language" which does not exist. Cantonese is mutually unintelligible with other Sinitic/Chinese language'''s''', and it has many words in common with Vietnamese, for example, which are not shared with Mandarin and other Sinitic languages.

This article is thus not providing a neutral point of view in its current form, as it is clearly a propagandist view of PRC Chinese nationalists rather than being a balanced view including the millions of Cantonese in Hong Kong and elsewhere who identify distinctly as Cantonese first and foremost before any connection to some wider Sinitic, Han ethnic supra-group. How can Cantonese be considered the same ethnicity as Mandarin when many don't even understand what they are saying, unless they have learned Mandarin. Prior to the 20th century, practically no Cantonese person could understand a Mandarin from northern China. Saying you are politically part of one country is one thing, but saying you are the same group ethnically is just being disingenous. ] (]) 06:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

:Keep on exposing yourself as an ignorant POV pusher. You don't know anything on the topic from your totally unsourced claims here. Cantonese and Hoklo are regarded as '''CLOSER''' to ] and ] than Mandarin is. Linguists say Cantonese has preserved the phonology of Middle Chinese since Cantonese are mainly descended from Northern Han migrants who migrated to Guangdong during the Tang dynasty, hence them calling themselves "people of Tang". Cantonese does not have words in common with Vietnamese that are not shared with Mandarin. Vietnamese is heavily influenced by Chinese and has tons of ] and ] loanwords from the thousand year rule of China over Vietnam. - ]. The words shared between Cantonese and Vietnamese, are also shared with Mandarin, and are NOT of Baiyue origin but of Old Chinese origin. Vietnamese is distinguished from its fellow Austroasiatic languages by the sheer amount of Chinese influence and words in their language. The Vietnamese word for country, quoc, is derived from Chinese 國 as an example, there are thousands of other words like that.

:And Mandarin and Cantonese are far more similar to each other than Vietnamese. Vietnamese uses an entirely different numueral system. Their numbers share no similarity with Cantonese. While Mandarin and Cantonese both use Sinitic numerals. Mandarin and Cantonese both follow the same word order, Vietnamese word order is reverse, Mandarin and Cantonese say 廣東人 (Guang dong rén) (Gwong Dung yan). Vietnamese says 𠊚廣東 (Người Quảng Đông), using an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT word for person, 𠊚, while Mandarin and Cantonese both use 人. Same with Mandarin and Cantonese using 廣州話 (Guǎng zhōu huà) (Guong zeo wa), Vietnamese says Tiếng Quảng Châu 㗂廣州. The word for "I" in Mandarin and Cantonese is 我, the word for I in Vietnamese is Tôi 晬.

:Numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

:Mandarin yi er san si wu liu qi ba jiu si

:Cantonese yat yih sam sei ng luk chat bat gau sap

:

:Vietnamese Một Hai Ba Bốn Năm Sáu Bảy Tám Chín Mười

:Now tell us how "similar" Vietnamese is to Cantonese. Vietnamese also follow different naming habits from Cantonese. They use "thi" in women's names and "van" in men's names which were never used by Cantonese. The ethnic Chinese community in Vietnam is entirely made out of Cantonese and Toishanese and they have hostile relations with the Vietnamese population.

:The issue in Hong Kong is not even about ethnicity. Hong Kongers are made out of a variety of different Han people, such as Hakka, Toishan, and Shanghainese people who moved to Hong Kong in the 19th century. Hong Kongers identify themselves as HONG KONGERS 香港人- as opposed to Mainlanders 大陸人, NOT AS Cantonese 廣東人. Hong Kongers call mainlanders as 大陸人, they don't distinguish them as Han people like you claim. Its about Hong Kongers 香港人 vs Mainlanders 大陸人, NOT Cantonese 廣東人 vs Han. The Mainlanders include Cantonese mainlanders in mainland Guangdong. Hong Kongers, including Hakkas, Toishan and others, regard Cantonese from Guangdong as mainlanders and extremist Hong Kongers also oppose Cantonese mainlanders as foreigners. Its clear you are obtuse and totally ignorant about Hong Kong and Cantonese identity. Hong Kong identity is not centered around blood and ethnicity. Macaunese are not even in question, Macaunese identity is centered around a ] Catholic identity and has nothing to do with this topic.

:China never claimed mutual intelligibility. China calls Chinese as 中文 - the Middle "language", in this case, it does not imply mutual intelligibilty. Chinese call Cantonese, Hokkien and Hakka as "]" which simply means "Regional speech" and carries absolutely no connotations of mutual ineligibility. The English word "dialect" means "regional speech" too but ALSO carries a connotation of mutual intelligibity with other dialects of the same language. It was westerners like Samuel Wells Williams Chinese people just followed suit and when talking in English, translated "Fangyan" as "Dialect" after copying what those westerners did.

:Mutual intelligibility between different varieties of a language is not a criteria for different ethnicity. ] of Japanese is not mutually intelligible with other varieties of Japanese. There are some Swiss German dialects not intelligible with standard German. Moroccan Arabic is not understood by Middle Eastern Arabic speakers, and is not intelligible at all with Central Asian Arabic.

:Chinese traditionally employed ] as the written language and used Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, and Hakka "readings"- ]. It was recently when Mandarin on the standard of ] was made the written language. All Chinese varieties of speech are descended from ] and ] from which ] is the written form.

:Dialect groups are not regarded as ethnicities or markers of shared ethnic identity. There are clans from the same ancestor spread across multiple provinces who speak different dialects. The ] Kong family has branches spread all over China. Are you going to claim that a member of the Kong family in Guangdong is of a different ethnicity than a Kong member in Mandarin speaking Shandong? The very word used for "Cantonese" is simply the provincial unit- 廣東- not signifying ethnic identity, only regional identity. Guangdong province didn't exist before the Ming dynasty. Cantonese, Hoklo, and other south eastern Chinese people referred to their ethnicity as "people of Tang" 唐人, and they called China Tangshan 唐山 because a massive part of their ancestry is from Tang dynasty era northern Chinese migrants to southern China. The Baiyue were marginalized into the minorities like the Zhuang, Miao, Yao, and Tujia. Baiyue practiced tatooing. Those minorities practice tattoing. Cantonese people didn't practice tattooing, they share more taboos and culture as northern Chinese than southern minorities. The Cantonese even used slurs like "barbarian" to refer to southern minorities.

:furthermore, the sources used for DNA have been corroborated and peer reviewed by westerners, and the historical sources on southern Han originated from northern Han migration are written by western historians.] (]) 06:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' - I have requested semi-protection on this and other articles. ] (]) 06:48, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

:: Actually, Cantonese very much has several words in common with Sino-Vietnamese words which are not shared with other Sinitic languages and are quite distinct from them. See . China also did not rule over Vietnam "for 1000 years"; it was far less than this, and the Chinese rule which did occur was interrupted between centuries of indigenous Vietic rule.

::In any case, I never said that Cantonese was more similar to Vietnamese than to other Sinitic languages. Vietnamese is an ] language, more similar to Khmer than to any Sino-Tibetan language. What I DID say was that Cantonese has similarities to Vietnamese, stemming from their common ] origins, which are not found in other Sinitic languages, and which are absent in northern Sinitic langauges like Mandarin. Mandarin meanwhile has significant influences from northern languages like Mongolian and ] which are absent from Sinitic languages like Cantonese. Standard Mandarin itself in its current only arose after so many Manchu and ] peoples settled in Beijing starting from the ], which was when Bejing was first made capital, and continuing into the ] period.

::With regards to Hong Kong, ethnicity very much is a factor besides political differences. The majority of Hong Kongers are of southern ethnic origins, mainly Cantonese from Guangdong, but yes also Hakka, Hoklo and others. Cantonese is the official language there, not Mandarin and not Hakka or Hoklo, and the people are constantly protesting for greater protections and rights for the Cantonese language, media and culture in the face of Mandarin use by the PRC. Hong Kong is a major centre for Cantonese language media used in China and elsewhere.

::With regards to mutual intelligibility, the example of the Tohoku dialect of Japanese you mention is not a sufficient comparison for your argument. Tohoku is still mutually intelligible with the other forms of Japanese, just with greater difficulty. Cantonese meanwhile is not mutually intelligible at all with nearly any of the other Sinitic languages. This is also not just simply with say Mandarin, but even with geographically closer languages like Wu and Hakka which are not intelligible with Cantonese.

:: Anyway, I'm done with this. Do what you want. If you want to tow the line of the PRC government, go ahead, but you aren't doing any service to anyone, nor are you presenting a balanced, accurate article. ] (]) 07:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" style="margin: 1em auto 1em auto; text-align: center;"
|- |-
!width=25|Number
! rowspan="2" colspan="2" |
!width=150|People
! colspan="4" | Modern Chinese varieties
!width=550|Subgroups
! rowspan="2" |'']''
!width=350|Main Area
! rowspan="2" | ]<br/>(])
!width=100|Population
! colspan="2" | ]{{sfnp|Miller|1967|p=336}}
! rowspan="2" | Middle Chinese{{efn|Middle Chinese forms are given in ], in which ''-X'' and ''-H'' denote the rising and departing tones respectively.}}
|- |-
| align=center|1 || ''']''' || ], ], ], ] || ], ], ], ], ] || align=center|120,000,000
! ]
! ]
!'']''
! ]
! ]
! ]
|-
| 1 || {{linktext|一}} || yī || iɤʔ<sup>7</sup> || '''jat'''<sup>1</sup> || jit<sup>5</sup> || '''nhất''' || il || ichi || itsu || ''ʔjit''
|- |-
| align=center|2 || ''']''' || ] || ], ], ], ], ], ] || align=center|120,000,000
| 2 || {{linktext|二}} || èr || ɲi<sup>6</sup> || '''ji'''<sup>6</sup> || ɲi<sup>4</sup> || '''nhị''' || i || ni || ji || ''nyijH''
|- |-
| align=center|3 || ''']''' || ], ], ], ], ] || ], ], Southern ], ] || align=center|115,000,000
| 3 || {{linktext|三}} || sān || sɛ<sup>1</sup> || '''saam'''<sup>1</sup> || sam<sup>1</sup> || '''tam''' || sam || san || || ''sam''
|- |-
| align=center|4 || ''']''' || || ] || align=center|100,000,000
| 4 || {{linktext|四}} || sì || sɿ<sup>5</sup> || '''sei'''<sup>3</sup> || si<sup>4</sup> || '''tứ''' || sa || shi || || ''sijH''
|- |-
| align=center|5 || ''']''' || || ], ] || align=center|100,000,000
| 5 || {{linktext|五}} || wǔ || ŋ<sup>6</sup> || '''ng'''<sup>5</sup> || ŋ<sup>3</sup> ||'''ngũ''' || o || go || || ''nguX''
|- |-
| align=center|6 || ''']''' || ], ], ] || ], ], ], ], ], ] || align=center|90,000,000
| 6 || {{linktext|六}} || liù || loʔ<sup>8</sup> || '''luk'''<sup>6</sup> || liuk<sup>5</sup> || '''lục''' || lyuk || roku || riku || ''ljuwk''
|- |-
| align=center|7 || ''']''' || || ] || align=center|75,000,000
| 7 || {{linktext|七}} || qī || tsʰiɤʔ<sup>7</sup> || '''chat'''<sup>1</sup> || tsʰit<sup>5</sup> || '''thất''' || chil || shichi || shitsu || ''tshit''
|- |-
| align=center|8 || ''']''' || ] || ], ] || align=center|75,000,000
| 8 || {{linktext|八}} || bā || poʔ<sup>7</sup> || '''baat'''<sup>3</sup> || pat<sup>5</sup> || '''bát''' || phal || hachi || hatsu || ''pɛt''
|- |-
| align=center|9 || ''']''' || || ], Eastern ] || align=center|60,000,000
| 9 || {{linktext|九}} || jiǔ || tɕiøy<sup>3</sup> || '''gau'''<sup>2</sup> || kiu<sup>3</sup> || '''cửu''' || kwu || ku || kyū || ''kjuwX''
|- |-
| align=center|10 || ''']''' || || ], Northeastern ] || align=center|40,000,000
| 10 || {{linktext|十}} || shí || zɤʔ<sup>8</sup> || '''sap'''<sup>6</sup> || səp<sup>6</sup> || '''thập''' || sip || jū < jiɸu || || ''dzyip''
|-
| align=center|11 || ''']''' || || ], ] || align=center|25,000,000
|-
| align=center|12 || ''']''' || ] || ], ], ], ] || align=center|5,000,000
|-
| align=center|13 || ''']''' || || ], ] || align=center|5,000,000
|-
| align=center|14 || ''']''' || || ] || align=center|700,000
|-
| align=center|15 || ''']''' || || ], ] || align=center|400,000
|-
| align=center|16 || ''']''' || || ] || align=center|400,000
|-
| align=center|17 || ''']''' || || ], ] || align=center|300,000
|-
| align=center|18 || ''']''' || || ], ], ] || align=center|50,000
|} |}

:::All of those words in the table shared between Cantonese and Vietnamese are of Sinitic origin from ] and ]. FYI those words are explicitly Sino-Vietnamese numerals - numerals whose names are directly borrowed from Old and Middle Chinese, which are NOT the same as indigenous Vietnamese numerals. Vietnam used Sino-Vietnamese numerals to pronounce Chinese characters only when reading ] texts, when they speak their own Vietnamese language, they use native numerals - Một Hai Ba Bốn Năm Sáu Bảy Tám Chín Mười. I already showed how native Vietnamese numerals have absolutely nothing in common with Cantonese. Vietnamese borrowed those words from Old Chinese and Middle Chinese during Chinese rule, and Cantonese preserved those words because Cantonese is closer to Middle Chinese and Old Chinese than Mandarin.

:::Go add up the years at ]. It is over a thousand years of rule. The rebel ] who established the ] was a Chinese. His family fled from China to Vietnam during ]'s interregnum. He was not a "indigenous Vietic". The ] and ] which ruled Medieval Vietnam were also of Chinese origin. The Ho dynasty even claimed descent from Chinese Emperor Shun.

:::Your claims on ethnicity are a joke again because Cantonese, Hokkien and others don't use Cantonese and Hokkien as ethnic identities. "Cantonese" literally means "Guangdong province person" and has no ethnic connotation at all. Again, a branch of the Kong family in Shandong could be Mandarin speakers while another branch of the Kong family could be Cantonese speakers in Guangdong, now are you going to claim they are different ethnicities?

:::Cantonese and Hokkien refer to their own ethnicity as "Tang people" which is because they are mainly descended from Tang era northern Han migrants. They boast about how Cantonese is the closest to Tang era Middle Chinese spoken in Northern China. And when they use it as "Tang people" they use it as synonymous to "Han people"- all the Sinitic speakers of China were "Tang people" in the eyes of Cantonese and other southern Chinese. They referred to the entire China as "Tangshan" (Tang mountain). You clearly don't know anything about ethnic identity of southern Chinese.] (]) 07:52, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

:::Both Northern Han Mandarin speakers and southern Han like Cantonese, Hoklo and others all referred to themselvesa as 華人 "Hua people" and overseas both of them were called 華僑 Hua qiao. In Korea, Mandarin speaking northern Han from Shandong were called 華僑 hwagyo, in Vietna, southern Han like Cantonese and Toishanese were referred to as 華 Hoa people. 華人 has been another name for the entire Chinese ethnicity even before Han people was used.

:::In Nguyen Dynasty Vietnam the Vietnamese Nguyen Emperors even referred to Vietnamese as Han people. 漢人]

:{{u|Balthazarduju}} can you fix ], ], ], ], and ] as well?] (]) 08:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}} {{reflist-talk}}


== 汉人 ==
== Genetics for ethnic groups RfC ==

For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: . This has been set up to determine the appropriateness of sections such as the "DNA analysis" section in this article. I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. --] ] 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

== As a synonym for "people of China" ==

There's an interesting use of "Han people" that is not quite explained in this article: that is, when "Han" is used as a synonym for "Chinese" in the multi-ethnic sense, so ''Hanren'' may be better translated as "Chinese people" or "people of China". One academic this usage in Jiang Jieshi's ] speech in 1950, where Jiang draws a distinction between People of ''Han'' (which the mainlander communists could be) and People of ''Zhongguo'' (which the mainlander communists could ''not'' be), because ''Zhongguo'' has a more civic connotation than ''Han'', although ''Han'' as conceived by Jiang is more national than ethnic.

This is not to say that ''Zhongguo'' is civic ''and not'' national, however: earlier in the chapter it explains how ''Zhongguo'' refers both to the mainland and to Taiwan, even in Taiwan's domestic media. There's also an interesting aside about how being a ''Zhongguo'' person, in addition to being the ] of all people native to ''Zhongguo'', is something that has to be learned, perhaps with analogy to ]. Actually, our article on ] should describe this process of adopting Chinese literary culture and style of government, instead of post-1950 claims of ethnic discrimination (thanks, Mao, for your ''Dahanzuzhuyi'' meme). Notice that sinicization is ''Hanhua'', but also there ''Han'' properly refers to China as a civilization, and not "Han Chinese" as a post-Qing ethnicity. ] (]) 16:38, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

== Why citation is needed for certain terms? ==

There are many citation request in the first chapter "Terms and etymology", for example, the term Huaren 华人. Why? Hua Ren literally means Chinese Person, it is not some individual's invention, it is a term used by general public for a long time. An equivalent example is "Svenska refers to Swedish person" or "黄(Huang) means Yellow in English". How could they be cited as there is no single source, nor a dispute? <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:14, 16 June 2016 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
] "all material must be attributable to reliable, published sources." "Misplaced Pages does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors." ] (]) 05:35, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

== Recent mass addition of tags ==

I reverted most of the mass addition of tags as many of them already had citations. If anyone feel this is an issue, please try to demonstrate community consensus preferably through an RFC. --] (]) 02:41, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

:No discussion? --] (]) 07:20, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
::If the listed number of Han people in a country can be attributable to a source that is already cited, of course no tag would be needed. Otherwise, proper sources should be provided before the tag can be removed per ]. ] (]) 09:37, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
:::It seems you are the only one who think so. This is a fairly well known fact that ethnic Chinese in other countries are of Han Chinese descent. Stop reverting and try to get consensus. You don't have consensus for your edits. If you revert one more, you will be reported for edit warring. --] (]) 09:46, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
::::{{re|Lysimachi}} You are edit warring now. You have concerns - discuss here first before editing the article again. Dead links are not supposed to be removed as someone can find an archive version. I'm warning you not to edit war again. You will be blocked for a longer time if you do it. --] (]) 09:23, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
:Take the country Japan for example, the source for 655,377 says very clearly the number is the number of residents with the Chinese nationality () instead of the ethnicity of Han. ] (]) 11:01, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
::{{u|Lysimachi}} Most overseas Chinese are overwhelmingly Han Chinese. We generally tend to use the population like that. If you have concerns, you can start an RFC on your own. Stop reverting. --] (]) 11:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
:::{{u|Lysimachi}} You edits are removing dead links. They are not supposed to be removed. You can replace them by an archived version. You edits are also changing the lead. If you want change, persuade other editors that you changes are right. There are 2 editors here who think your changes are not justified. You want change, get consensus (see ]). Also see ]. --] (]) 11:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
::So you yourself admit that there is no source for 655,377 Hans in Japan. ] (]) 14:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''Suggestion''' - For the {{tl|citation needed}} tags in the Infobox, these seem to all relate to a concern that the current sourcing specifies only ''Chinese'', not ''Han''. Could we resolve this with a brief footnote stating that? Something like "Count of all Chinese, including Han"? - ] <sup>]</sup> 00:36, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
:: 1. It's not just about reference to Han. Some citations are dead links. 2. If it's the count of Chinese, it should be listed on the Article on Chinese people. 3. They do not include all Han people. Many Chinese are Han, but not all Hans are Chinese. Most references are sorted by countries of origin instead of ethnicities and no reference mentions the Han ethnicity. ] (]) 06:52, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


@] You used the logic that we don't say English people, we just say English, but using that logic wouldn't we just say 汉 because 汉族translates to "Han ethnic group" and we don't say "English ethnic group" in English. So if you want to talk about it using English conventions then it would just be 汉 and you can be the judge of whether that makes sense or not. I mean I don't object to it just being 汉. ] (]) 21:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
== RfC on languages ==


:@] Oh and also you're wrong because it is called "English people" as the article title and the infobox title. Check the ] article. ] (]) 21:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
{{rfc|hist|lang|pol|soc|rfcid=B71F922}}
::Right, it doesn't say "The '''English people''', also known as the '''English'''". ]] 21:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
There is a dispute over the languages used by Han Chinese. I want the community to decide. We have 2 options here.
:::@] Exactly, so that's why I put 汉人(means Han people) in the infobox. Now I get that there is a point that you don't translate to Chinese something that is only used in English, but the thing is that 汉人 is actually very commonly used in Chinese so that point is null. ] (]) 21:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
:'''A''':native: ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ]<br />others: ], ], ], ], ], and other local languages.
:It's just not really lexically distinct. The fact we're including it as its own "variant" is just a bit misleading to an audience that doesn't speak any Chinese. There's this sense on Misplaced Pages where we have to list every single way sources inflect a given term if enough of them do it, and it's simply not that useful when we do that if the terms aren't actually different. ]] 21:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
:'''B''' ]
::Right, so it's two sets of two characters that mean the exact same thing. Your point seems to be that since they mean the exact same thing then pick one. I agree with that. And my argument now is that actually 汉人 might be more commonly used than 汉族 in Chinese and we should just replace 汉族 in the infobox with 汉人. ] (]) 21:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Please indicate which one you prefer. --] (]) 16:49, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
:::@] Okay nevermind, you're right because the Chinese article uses 汉族. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that saying 汉人 in Chinese is completely valid too, but in English referring to the English people as the English ethnic group sounds weird and thus is not mentioned like that. ] (]) 21:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


===Choice=== == Genetics ==
*'''B''' This was the long term stable version before one particular editor decided to start POV pushing long term on this article. ] actually encompasses all the varieties of Chinese and reflects the language associated with Han Chinese. I don't see why we need to mention local languages like Castilian, Malay etc. I mean, every ethnic group going to a different country is bound to use the local language. --] (]) 16:54, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''A minus''' The expanded list of languages is more informative to the reader, and more aligned to the instructions at {{tl|Infobox ethnic group}} (''List of languages spoken by group.''), but I share the concern about languages spoken only in the diaspora, and would exclude those. This would leave the list of ''native'' languages only. Inclusion of an expanded list also aligns with other articles on multilinguistic ethnic groups (e.g. ], ], ]). - ] <sup>]</sup> 05:57, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''A minus''' essentially per Ryk72, but I also understand Lemongirl's concern below. Surely there is a way to address this concern under option A, though; for instance, you could list the most common languages (perhaps with a minimum population cutoff) and also add "other chinese languages" or some such. ] (]) 08:38, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''B''' Apart from consistency with other articles, I see no reason at all to include diaspora languages, and it's my understanding that the ] is spoken by the ], who are not ethnically Han Chinese. Putting "Chinese languages" in the ''languages'' section of the infobox for "Han Chinese" does seem kind of "well, duh", but I would counter that having a link to the ] article is much more useful to the reader than links to each individual language. Maybe we could try listing the languages but pointing them collectively to the ] article? I read through {{tl|Infobox ethnic group}} and its associated talk, and the only instructions I found were the single line quoted by Ryk72 above: "List of languages spoken by group." There was a rather incivil kerfuffle at ] back in 2008 about a related issue (second languages), which seems not to have reached consensus, but today the template at ] appears to be listing second languages understood by more than half the population. ] (]) 19:50, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''A minus 'others' ''' <small>Summoned by bot, and knowing nothing about the subject apart from what I've read today.</small> 'Chinese languages' seems vague, however there needs to be a number of 'cut-offs'. Languages of the diaspora, languages of relatively recent migrants into 'Chinese areas' and International languages (inc. English), are NOT Han languages and should not be included. Native languages spoken by a significant percentage should. From linked articles, it appears that part of the problem is that there is some debate about what are 'languages' and what are simply 'dialects'. 'and other ]', might help clarify. ] (]) 22:24, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''A''' because it's more informative. Others can be taken out. ] (]) 06:54, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
*'''B''' to avoid the rabbit hole, but with one reservation. See below. ] (]) 16:54, 9 September 2016 (UTC)


@] and @]: I really do feel that the comparatively enormous sections about genetic profile and history is undue on what is meant to be a general article about a people group. If ] and related articles are not appropriate places for this content, I recommend investigating creating ] as its own article, or something like that. ]] 20:28, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
===Wider discussion===
*The only reason why I prefer using ] instead of the individual ones is because I don't want to go down the rabbit hole. There are multiple varieties of Chinese and deciding which ones to keep in the infobox is another problem. So I think using a single umbrella term is easier. An analogy would be like using ] in the infobox about ]. Ping {{u|Ryk72}}. --] (]) 04:48, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
::I agree with this reasoning. If there has to be a rabbit hole, let's go down in it one place: the Chinese Languages article. As for having more detailed information in this article (saving readers a click), that extra information isn't a service if it's of disputed quality.
::However, I have a reservation I can't resolve because of insufficient knowledge of the language group. I notice the (A) list consists of the traditional 7 groupings, with one exception: In place of Min, it lists two subgroups of it, Mindong and Minnan. Is there some factual significance to this difference? Does this make (A) more informative? ] (]) 16:54, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
*For what it's worth, I give no weight to the fact that one of these choices has been the status quo for a long time. I always look forward in Misplaced Pages editing. ] (]) 16:54, 9 September 2016 (UTC)


:Southward migrations and demic diffusion are an important part of Han history. It explains the existence of subgroups and dialects. Neither the ethnogenesis of the Han and their history can be understood without it. I am reinstating the deleted sections, and I am open to attempts at further summarization. ] (]) 01:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
== Redundancy? ==
::I don't disagree it's important, but I do not understand why it's given its own section, as opposed to being integrated into the existing history section ]] 01:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:::This can be done, but until then, I suggest the material remains as it is without deletion. In the mean time, I have already condensed the sections. Furhter condensation and integration will have to wait, and hopefully will be attempted by others. But deletion is simply uncalled for, in my opinion. ] (]) 04:25, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
::] doesn't have anything to do with genetics... So how can the ethnogenesis of the Han not be understood without it? ] (]) 02:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Ethnogenesis nothing to do with genetics? Are you sure? ] (]) 04:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Ethnogenesis is a concept within anthropology and history, not biology. Ethnic groups are social constucts, they aren't biological or genetic. ] (]) 04:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::That's completely untrue. How did you formulate that opinion? As an Osage, in the past a person could be adopted into the Osage Nation. A Pawnee slave or a European (British or American). He or she could be adopted into our tribe, which is an ethnic group in and of itself. Most tribes are considered to be ethnic groups. However, that person, having been adopted, would not have been ethnically Osage. S/he would be Osage, but not ethnically. The equivalent would be becoming a citizen of another country. If you're a white American and move to Zimbabwe and gain citizenship there, you can be a Zimbabwean. However, that in no way makes you ethnically Zimbabwean. You might marry an ethnic Zimbabwean and your children will then be connected to one of the local tribes. Your children will be African. You will be legally African (Zimbabwean) and socially so. You live in the place, so you are. You married into the culture and had children, so you are. But your genetics are your genetics. You were not born a Zimbabwean by blood so you cannot be that thing. Ethnic groups are social constructs in that they are cultures and countries tied together by blood. That's what an ethnic group means. A culture bound together by blood. Ethnically European doesn't apply to people from China moving to Europe, it applies to white Europeans and a few other subgroups that evolved their features and culture in those lands. ] (]) 13:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
::::::Have you ever actually read anything written by someone who might know about ethnicity or ethnography? It is not at all clear from this reply, which borders on delirium, that you have. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 13:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::Ethnogenesis is a concept, plain and simple. It is not restricted to any field. The word simply means "creation or birth of a nation/tribe/people." Within anthropology and history, the use of the term may lack specific genetic or biological implications; outside of those fields, such elements are readily noticeable.
:::::Ethnogenesis clearly has a lot to do with biology and genetics, insofar as ethnic goups are made up of people who have genes and have been produced biologically (hopefully). Indeed, ethnogenesis is exclusively to do with biology and genetics if we go down a deterministic route. Individual and group choices (e.g. the formation of group identities) are predicated on genetic predisposition mediated by environment - just like any other human activity. If you disagree with that, you disagree with basic physics.
:::::The simple fact of the matter is that an ethnic group (any ethnic group) has a genetic average to which the majority of members will accord more than any other human being. Whatsoever outliers might exist will be exceptions proving the rule, since they will be adoptions into the ethnic group as opposed to products of it. Their descendants tend towards the ethnic average over time. ] (]) 00:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::The question is not one of correlation, but meaningful connections and knowledge one can derive from the correlation. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 00:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


== Infobox Image ==
] constantly reverts , the last revert citing "Keep redundancy to a minimum in the first sentence." Could anyone tell me what is "redundant" that has been removed in ? --] (]) 19:57, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
:"Also referred to as" doesn't seem to meet the requirements of ] ("Use the first sentence of the article to provide relevant information that is '''not''' already given by the title of the article", emphasis in original). I personally think the article scans a ''little'' bit better with "Also referred to as" than without it, but I think both versions are acceptable. ] (]) 01:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC)


Why was the image removed from the infobox? ] (]) 03:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
== "Chinese people" ==


:<s>]</s> <ins>nope see below</ins>. ]] 03:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Can anyone verify whether "Chinese" is a synonym for "Han"? It seems like it is in popular usage.--] (]) 02:14, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
:If these two terms are synonyms, the meaning of "Han Chinese" (whatever it is) would be the same as "Han Han", "Chinese Chinese" or "Chinese Han." ] (]) 14:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC) ::That image was there since forever why now remove it? ] (]) 03:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:::It looks like what actually happened is ]. ]] 03:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
::Yes, I have actually seen them used as synonyms. In fact, "Han Chinese" is generally used to refer to people of ethnic Chinese ancestry. Let me see if I can find a source for it. --] (]) 02:17, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
:The word Hàn (漢／汉), like every Chinese graph of sufficient antiquity, has a number of meanings, one of which ''usually'' translates to "Chinese", "China", etc., in the nature of an abbreviation. For example 漢英 means "Chinese–English" when used in the contexts of books, like 漢英辭典 means "Chinese–English dictionary" (specifically in that direction, i.e. there are not Chinese glosses for English words), and 漢英對排 means "Chinese and English on opposing pages". 漢美關係 are China–U.S. affairs; 漢日關係 are China–Japan affairs, and so on (although these are much more commonly rendered as 中美／中日關係, using the abbreviation for China– sorry I used this as an example; now it seems really confusing). In each of these examples, the character following the character 漢/Han is also being used as an abbreviation: 英文、美國、日本, respectively.
:To address Lysimachi's concerns, yes, the term "Han Chinese" is pleonastic, and does not exist as such in the Chinese language (the word is 漢族/hànzú: Han ethnicity, unless you're referring to a member of the ethnic group or the set of members, in which case you'd use 漢人/hànrén: Han person/people). The word here is being used in a less general reading, referring to one specific ethnic group, rather than the whole of China. We do have to make that distinction though because "Chinese people" is ambiguous. Hope this addresses your concerns. ] (]) 01:00, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

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Section sizes
Section size for Han Chinese (50 sections)
Section name Byte
count		 Section
total
(Top) 17,376 17,376
Identity 3,528 3,528
Designation 17 7,431
"Han people" 3,047 3,047
Huaren and Huayi 1,191 1,191
Tangren 1,594 1,594
Zhonghua minzu 1,582 1,582
Han Chinese subgroups 10,551 29,170
Military garrisons and agricultural colonies 1,117 1,117
Historical southward migrations 5,731 17,502
First wave: Jin dynasty 4,494 4,494
Tang dynasty and An Lushan rebellion 1,918 1,918
Jin–Song wars and Mongol invasion 5,359 5,359
Distribution 18 12,699
China 1,918 4,290
Hong Kong and Macau 2,372 2,372
Taiwan 1,885 1,885
Southeast Asia 2,331 2,331
Others 4,175 4,175
History 798 31,611
Prehistory 9,354 9,354
Early history 715 5,442
Xia dynasty 1,376 1,376
Shang dynasty 1,698 1,698
Zhou dynasty 1,653 1,653
Imperial history 25 11,694
Qin dynasty 1,476 1,476
Han dynasty 1,744 1,744
Three Kingdoms to Jin 3,489 3,489
Song to Qing 4,960 4,960
Republic history 4,323 4,323
Culture and society 8,980 61,287
Language 3,369 3,369
Names 495 495
Fashion 5,557 5,557
Family 4,061 4,061
Food 1,963 1,963
Literature 5,118 5,118
Science and technology 24,582 24,582
Religion 7,162 7,162
Genetics 74 27,888
Internal genetic structure 7,617 7,617
Demic diffusion and north-south differences 4,349 13,128
Patrilineal DNA 8,779 8,779
Genetic continuity between ancient and modern Han Chinese 2,826 2,826
Closely related East Asian groups 4,243 4,243
Notes 212 212
References 44 44
Further reading 765 765
External links 267 267
Total 192,278 192,278

DNA section biased

The text in the DNA analyis is misleading

"Despite this, tests comparing the genetic profiles of northern Han, southern Han and southern natives determined that haplogroups O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in southern natives, were only observed in some southern Hans (4% on average), but not in northern Hans. "

This would imply the paternal contribution of southern natives is only 4% when this is far from the truth. Y-DNA O1 (all subclades) is very common in (and perhaps more associated with) Dai populations. It is also very common in southern Chinese. Y-DNA O-P201 is very common in southern natives and is very common in Guangdong. There are many subclades of Y-DNA O1, O2 and O3 shared by both Dai and Han alike.

References

  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_East_and_Southeast_Asia. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  2. http://blog.ifeng.com/article/31381043.html. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  3. https://en.wikipedia.org/Haplogroup_O-MSY2.2#O-M119. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  4. https://en.wikipedia.org/Haplogroup_O-M95_(Y-DNA)#Subclade_distribution. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  5. https://en.wikipedia.org/Haplogroup_O-M122#Subclade_Distribution. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

Summary

Main article: List of political parties in China

The number of speakers derived from statistics or estimates (2019) and were rounded:

Number People Subgroups Main Area Population
1 Cantonese people Taishanese people, Hongkongers, Macau people, Macanese people Guangdong, Guangxi, Hainan, Hong Kong, Macau 120,000,000
2 Hakka people Ngái people Guangdong, Fujian, Jiangxi, Guangxi, Sichuan, Hunan 120,000,000
3 Min people Fuzhou people, Hoklo people, Hoklo Taiwanese, Putian people, Teochew people Fujian, Hainan, Southern Zhejiang, Guangdong 115,000,000
4 Shandong people Shandong Province 100,000,000
5 Sichuanese people Sichuan Province, Chongqing Municipality 100,000,000
6 Wu people Shanghainese people, Ningbonese people, Wenzhou people Zhejiang, Jiangsu, Shanghai, Anhui, Jiangxi, Fujian 90,000,000
7 Hebei people Hebei Province 75,000,000
8 Jianghuai people Subei people Jiangsu Province, Anhui Province 75,000,000
9 Gan people Jiangxi, Eastern Hunan 60,000,000
10 Hunanese people Hunan, Northeastern Guangxi 40,000,000
11 Taiwanese people Taiwan, Southeast Asia 25,000,000
12 Tanka people Fuzhou Tanka Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian, Hainan 5,000,000
13 Hainan people Hainan, Southeast Asia 5,000,000
14 Chuanqing people Guizhou 700,000
15 Gaoshan people Yunnan, Guizhou 400,000
16 Waxiang people Hunan 400,000
17 Tunbao people Guizhou, Anshun 300,000
18 Hui'an people Quanzhou, Fujian, China 50,000

References

  1. https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/ethnic/2009-08/18/content_8582984.htm
  2. https://www.ethnologue.com/
  3. http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/help/top-100-languages-by-population.html

汉人

@Remsense You used the logic that we don't say English people, we just say English, but using that logic wouldn't we just say 汉 because 汉族translates to "Han ethnic group" and we don't say "English ethnic group" in English. So if you want to talk about it using English conventions then it would just be 汉 and you can be the judge of whether that makes sense or not. I mean I don't object to it just being 汉. Alexysun (talk) 21:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense Oh and also you're wrong because it is called "English people" as the article title and the infobox title. Check the English people article. Alexysun (talk) 21:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Right, it doesn't say "The English people, also known as the English". Remsense诉 21:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
@Remsense Exactly, so that's why I put 汉人(means Han people) in the infobox. Now I get that there is a point that you don't translate to Chinese something that is only used in English, but the thing is that 汉人 is actually very commonly used in Chinese so that point is null. Alexysun (talk) 21:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
It's just not really lexically distinct. The fact we're including it as its own "variant" is just a bit misleading to an audience that doesn't speak any Chinese. There's this sense on Misplaced Pages where we have to list every single way sources inflect a given term if enough of them do it, and it's simply not that useful when we do that if the terms aren't actually different. Remsense诉 21:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Right, so it's two sets of two characters that mean the exact same thing. Your point seems to be that since they mean the exact same thing then pick one. I agree with that. And my argument now is that actually 汉人 might be more commonly used than 汉族 in Chinese and we should just replace 汉族 in the infobox with 汉人. Alexysun (talk) 21:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
@Remsense Okay nevermind, you're right because the Chinese article uses 汉族. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that saying 汉人 in Chinese is completely valid too, but in English referring to the English people as the English ethnic group sounds weird and thus is not mentioned like that. Alexysun (talk) 21:51, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Genetics

@MingScribe1368 and @AngelusVastator3456: I really do feel that the comparatively enormous sections about genetic profile and history is undue on what is meant to be a general article about a people group. If Genetic history of East Asians and related articles are not appropriate places for this content, I recommend investigating creating Genetic history of Han Chinese as its own article, or something like that. Remsense诉 20:28, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Southward migrations and demic diffusion are an important part of Han history. It explains the existence of subgroups and dialects. Neither the ethnogenesis of the Han and their history can be understood without it. I am reinstating the deleted sections, and I am open to attempts at further summarization. MingScribe1368 (talk) 01:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
I don't disagree it's important, but I do not understand why it's given its own section, as opposed to being integrated into the existing history section Remsense诉 01:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
This can be done, but until then, I suggest the material remains as it is without deletion. In the mean time, I have already condensed the sections. Furhter condensation and integration will have to wait, and hopefully will be attempted by others. But deletion is simply uncalled for, in my opinion. MingScribe1368 (talk) 04:25, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Ethnogenesis doesn't have anything to do with genetics... So how can the ethnogenesis of the Han not be understood without it? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Ethnogenesis nothing to do with genetics? Are you sure? MingScribe1368 (talk) 04:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Ethnogenesis is a concept within anthropology and history, not biology. Ethnic groups are social constucts, they aren't biological or genetic. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
That's completely untrue. How did you formulate that opinion? As an Osage, in the past a person could be adopted into the Osage Nation. A Pawnee slave or a European (British or American). He or she could be adopted into our tribe, which is an ethnic group in and of itself. Most tribes are considered to be ethnic groups. However, that person, having been adopted, would not have been ethnically Osage. S/he would be Osage, but not ethnically. The equivalent would be becoming a citizen of another country. If you're a white American and move to Zimbabwe and gain citizenship there, you can be a Zimbabwean. However, that in no way makes you ethnically Zimbabwean. You might marry an ethnic Zimbabwean and your children will then be connected to one of the local tribes. Your children will be African. You will be legally African (Zimbabwean) and socially so. You live in the place, so you are. You married into the culture and had children, so you are. But your genetics are your genetics. You were not born a Zimbabwean by blood so you cannot be that thing. Ethnic groups are social constructs in that they are cultures and countries tied together by blood. That's what an ethnic group means. A culture bound together by blood. Ethnically European doesn't apply to people from China moving to Europe, it applies to white Europeans and a few other subgroups that evolved their features and culture in those lands. Wacape (talk) 13:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Have you ever actually read anything written by someone who might know about ethnicity or ethnography? It is not at all clear from this reply, which borders on delirium, that you have. Remsense ‥ 论 13:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Ethnogenesis is a concept, plain and simple. It is not restricted to any field. The word simply means "creation or birth of a nation/tribe/people." Within anthropology and history, the use of the term may lack specific genetic or biological implications; outside of those fields, such elements are readily noticeable.
Ethnogenesis clearly has a lot to do with biology and genetics, insofar as ethnic goups are made up of people who have genes and have been produced biologically (hopefully). Indeed, ethnogenesis is exclusively to do with biology and genetics if we go down a deterministic route. Individual and group choices (e.g. the formation of group identities) are predicated on genetic predisposition mediated by environment - just like any other human activity. If you disagree with that, you disagree with basic physics.
The simple fact of the matter is that an ethnic group (any ethnic group) has a genetic average to which the majority of members will accord more than any other human being. Whatsoever outliers might exist will be exceptions proving the rule, since they will be adoptions into the ethnic group as opposed to products of it. Their descendants tend towards the ethnic average over time. 80.189.58.242 (talk) 00:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
The question is not one of correlation, but meaningful connections and knowledge one can derive from the correlation. Remsense ‥ 论 00:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Infobox Image

Why was the image removed from the infobox? Sgt.McHale (talk) 03:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES nope see below. Remsense诉 03:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
That image was there since forever why now remove it? Sgt.McHale (talk) 03:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
It looks like what actually happened is the image got deleted on Commons. Remsense诉 03:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
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