| Revision as of 16:35, 30 October 2017 editTheGracefulSlick (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers53,686 edits →E.M.Gregory's behavior at AfDs....again.: Who and what?Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 04:17, 22 January 2025 edit undoWizmut (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,793 edits →Incivility and edit-warring: new section | ||
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| == ] and persistant ], ], and ]-failing articles == | |||
| == Stalking complaint == | |||
| {{atop|This section has been stale for a few days and was at the top of ANI (i.e. the oldest un-archived post) and about to be automatically archived without action. I find consensus for an indefinite (not infinite, you may appeal your restriction at ] if you can create some articles through AfC that demonstrate a better understanding of the policies) ban from creating articles in main space against ]. They may only create articles using the AfC process. This editing restriction will be logged at ]. ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{hat note|Permalinks to context, ] & ] notification; ] commencement. <small><small>—prepended later by ] (]) 08:57, 18 October 2017 (UTC)</small></small>}} | |||
| ] has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of ] and ] seems to be lacking substantially. | |||
| * was deleted for ] | |||
| * on ] and ] grounds | |||
| Latest example here: . Please protect me. Rob has commented in all my BRFA's, my BAG membership and in many more places. Usually, he is the first to comment. <s>I have evvidence that he as been sending emails about me to others.</s> I have evidence that he has been contacting others offwiki about me to others. -- ] (]) <small>Note: I corrected my statement after explanations given ] (]) 13:24, 19 October 2017 (UTC)</small> {{small|] restored and struck, per ]. —] (]) 11:31, 20 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| :...then post that evidence. It simply hasn't happened, and the unsupported accusation is a blatant personal attack. This is only being filed because I said 3 minutes ago that I planned to take this to ANI tonight when I get to a computer. He wanted my name in the section header instead of his. Magioladitis has been wikihounding me blatantly for weeks since he was desysopped. I've tried to have little contact with him, but that hasn't worked. I'll post a comprehensive list of evidence (''actual'' evidence, with diffs and stuff) when I get home tonight. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 22:56, 17 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Rob said for me ] "This has been going on '''''for years''''', and a bot operator that doesn't comply with the bot policy should obviously not be a BAG member" (06:39, 27 December 2016, emphasis is mine). | |||
| ::: Rob comments about me: "The behavior '''''over half a decade''''' is '''''far below''''' what's expected of any editor on the project" (20:04, 19 January 2017, emhasis is mine). | |||
| :::Rob comments in a BRFA '''2''' minutes after I placed the time stamp: . | |||
| :::]. Rob has commented (usually the first to comment) in the vas majorit of them (pobably in all till Task 50). | |||
| ::: I have already warned in the past that this will end in ANI or somehing similar. If I get time I an prove tht people were receiving emails about me. | |||
| ::::] (]) 23:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Noting here that I removed the name from the heading. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 23:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *I am not that familiar with the context, but I don't think it is necessary stalking if valid points are being raised. Since both editors work with the technical aspects of Misplaced Pages, overlaps should be expected, and I think it would be wrong to look away if there are pressing concerns. ]] 01:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I second this. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 02:11, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's true in general but something in my communication / interaction with Rob fails. -- ] (]) 06:01, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Honestly, Magioladitis' own presentation of evidence here reinforces the impression that there's something wrong with his judgment and ''needs'' monitoring: first on his list of complaints above is that BU Rob opposed his reconfirmation as a member of BAG, which you might think was a mean thing for Rob to do until you read the discussion Magioladitis himself links, in which ''eight out of eight'' editors commenting shared BU Rob's opinion, citing behavior by Magioladitis which, in the context of a bot operator, is downright frightening. One little passage is especially telling. Someone asked: | |||
| ::{{tq|1=Two questions: | |||
| ::#Why are you running an unapproved bot from your account to make edits like ? | |||
| ::#Why is this not grounds for yet another block? | |||
| ::] <sup>(''']''')</sup> 02:35, 27 December 2016 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| :Magioladitis' response was incredible: | |||
| ::{{tq|1=The questions are unrelated to my BAG nomination. BAG checks mainly the technical part of the story. The question asked here is if have the technical skills and related knowledge to be part of BAG. -- ] (]) 14:02, 29 December 2016 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| :No, Magioladitis, it's not just your technical skills that are at issue, it's your judgment (and, to be blunt, your ability to communicate in the English language, from my long observation). And Exhibit A is that you apparently think that, in considering you for membership in the Bot Approvals Group (whose members ''individually'' are empowered to approve bot tasks), we should simply ignore the apparent fact that, at the very moment of your application, you were running an unapproved bot. That's ''shocking.'' | |||
| :''']]''' 02:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{U|EEng}} I am not complaining on negative commenting. I am complaining on ''constant commenting'''. Robs has '''supported''' some of my bot tasks but he has commented in '''all''' of them. I thing that I do not like because I feel exposed to a specific person online. -- ] (]) 08:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Your long history of going off the reservation is such that someone ought to be watching you. ''']]''' 19:28, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{tq|I have evvidence that he as been sending emails about me to others.}} {{tq|If I get time I an prove tht people were receiving emails about me.}} {{ping|Magioladitis}} It has been over 36 hours since you opened this complaint. You need to provide evidence for this claim, or you need to retract it. —] (]) 12:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :] I retracted. It was explained to me that the communication was via the IRC admin channel. Still offwiki but not via emails. I sincerely apologise. If this has been explained to me earlier I would not have written anything about it. -- ] (]) 13:33, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::That's not a retraction, it's an after-the-fact refactoring of your original complaint, so I've corrected it. —] (]) 11:31, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * on ] and ] | |||
| === Response and boomerang === | |||
| *They've been warned about ] and . | |||
| I initially wrote up a long thing refuting what Magioladitis wrote about me stalking, but instead, I'll just refer you to "past me". These claims go back months, and I wrote a very detailed explanation of the interactions I had with Magioladitis in the past. You can find that . As a brief summary: We interact about the normal amount of times for those editing the same area. I've only ever started a ''single'' discussion related to Magioladitis, as I intentionally avoid him whenever possible. I've initiated zero interactions with him since the second ArbCom. Every time I've criticized him, the community has agreed with my criticisms. I think that about sums it up. Now onto the evidence that Magioladitis has been continuously harassing me, as promised: | |||
| *] which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in ) | |||
| *During the first ArbCom case, he openly and needlessly speculated about my location on-wiki in violation of ] multiple times. , ]. | |||
| *In April 2017, he started a discussion about one of my bot approvals without even discussing the concern with me, in apparent retaliation for my criticism of an unrelated third-party bot task that was violating the bot policy. ] The community concluded that I could fix the bug in my task as normal and Magioladitis was warned by a BAG member (Headbomb) that he shouldn't retaliate against me in that manner. | |||
| *In May 2017, he started another discussion about the ''same bug'' in the ''same bot task'', despite me not running that bot task at all in between the two discussions. ] The section was speedily closed with a warning not to harass me. | |||
| *In June 2017, he started a discussion claiming (falsely) that I gave incorrect advice to a bot operator. ] Other BAG members have since stated my advice was correct based on the information available in the bug report at the time. | |||
| *During the second ArbCom case, two arbitration clerks had to redact large portions of his evidence section because he made unfounded accusations and personal attacks against me, including the "off-wiki coordination"/email accusation he made above. See ] and . | |||
| *Plenty of articles containing only one source ], ], ], ], ], ] | |||
| At the risk of trivializing things, up until this point, we have "run-of-the-mill" incivility, abuse of process to harass, etc. After the second ArbCom case, it was ratcheted up quite a bit to wikihounding me everywhere I go. | |||
| Most recently there's ], which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted. | |||
| *In September 2017, he suddenly popped up on my talk page to demand an apology and retraction for a comment I made during the first ArbCom case. I stand by my original comment, which was supported by the findings of facts in the case. ] This proves Magioladitis was literally going through 9-month-old edits and contributions to find something to hound me about. | |||
| *In October 2017, Magioladitis removed a PROD I placed on a file (now deleted, so I can't show the diff); ]. This was his first edit to the file namespace since August 2017, when he (ironically) accidentally rolled back one of my edits on another random file, showing he was going through my contribs at that time as well (). This is an editor who so infrequently edits the file namespace that if you try to retrieve his last 100 file namespace edits, the site returns an error. A discussion on his talk page made clear he had no legitimate rationale for removing the PROD . | |||
| Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. ] but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to ] someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a ] article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. ] 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'm philosophically opposed to interaction bans, especially one-sided ones. At this point, I just want his harassment to stop. I think a site ban is appropriate given the history here. Magioladitis has had ''many'' last chances. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 02:44, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :It saddens me to be editing this response right now... I can understand how disheartened and perhaps frustrated or angry that Magioladitis is feeling since the ArbCom case that recently closed, but I can't help but be honest here... I feel that these problematic accusations by Magioladitis are only going to continue until action is taken and we (the community) put a stop to it. We've gone through complaints and discussions on different talk pages, ''numerous'' ANI discussions, '''two''' ArbCom cases - how far do we allow this to go? When is enough enough? Do these continued and repeated discussions involving Magioladitis' behavior show that perhaps we've reached a point where he's stopped becoming net positive for the project? I'm not sure how to feel... it's just truly sad and disappointing... :-( ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 03:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. ] ] 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Unless there's a serious reason to believe an IBAN would not work, besides any objections anyone personally has to the concept of IBANs, I don't see why we don't try one. Magioladitis and BU Rob13 each claim to want to be left alone. It seems the perfect candidate for an IBAN. So let's do it. If one or the other is the instigator of harassment, then the IBAN will lead us to the culprit far faster than more arbitration, and more empirically than an ANI thread. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 05:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I checked this ] which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **Yes, please. It's clear that Rob's replies cause me stress in all cases. I don't even want to have positive comments in my BRFA's from him. -- ] (]) 06:01, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Late addendum, but it looks like the user in question was tagged by a research team on their talk page as possibly using AI to edit, which would track with the article writing vs content quality if it's the case. ] 12:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ***If Rob13 is "philosophically opposed to interaction bans", both of them work in the small world of Misplaced Pages bots, Rob13's actions on BRFAs are to validly point out horrific bot-related misbehavior on the part of Magioladitis, and Magioladitis welcomes the removal of Rob13 from BRFAs, that doesn't seem like a very constructive solution to me. It might be possible if we simultaneously ban Magioladitis from anything bot-related, broadly construed, but otherwise no. —] (]) 06:25, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. ] (]) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::AI detection methods are so faulty that I’m 100% willing to accept this as truth. Sorry about that. ] 19:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ****Who cares what benefits either of these individuals bring to the Misplaced Pages bots world? If they can't work together, and the trouble their interactions cause outweighs the benefits of their work in the bots realm, then why should we give a damn about the benefits of their work with bots? I see no reason to put on kid gloves with respect to either. Things do not simply get this bad and stay this bad for so long based on the unilateral misconduct of a single person, the removal of whom would fairly resolve. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 08:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised: | |||
| *****Well actually quite a lot of people care about the benefits Rob brings given there has been no downside. They don't care about the benefits Mag can potentially bring because he comes with a history of negatives which have had a huge amount of community involvement even before it got to Arbcom in order to get him to change his ways. Things do get this bad and stay this bad for so long as the result of a single editor if that editor refuses to change their ways. To disregard all the previous dealings with Magioladitis inability to abide by ENWP's requirements on editing behavior with a hand wavy 'well other people are at fault too' is ludicrous. ] (]) 09:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "]," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated. | |||
| ******It takes two to tango. {{tq|Things do get this bad and stay this bad for so long as the result of a single editor if that editor refuses to change their ways.}} Bullshit. ArbCom or the community would have banned Magioladitis ages ago if this were so simple. Neither ArbCom nor the community is so stupid as you are painting them to be. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:12, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources. | |||
| *******'It takes two to tango' being the best you can come up with to smear another editor? 'Where there is smoke there is fire' is another good one. So as much evidence as Mag has presented then got it. Do you have any actual evidence other than clichés that 'well everyone is at fault' despite the overwhelming extended evidence to the contrary? ] (]) 09:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory. | |||
| ********You kinda skipped the rest of my response. You might want to strike yours and write a new one. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:21, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages. | |||
| *********What? Where you stated I said the community or arbcom were stupid? When I did no such thing? I tend to ignore complete bullshit. The community and Arbcom have wasted far more time on Magioladitis than they are worth in good faith. That does not make them stupid, it makes them extremely tolerant. There is a limit. You on the other hand are implying that tolerance means that there must be other people at fault because they have not decided to outright ban Mag yet. Which is again, ridiculous. ] (]) 09:30, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information. | |||
| **********You can't have it both ways! You indicate below that ArbCom and AN/ANI are extremely effective at topic banning and sitebanning disruptive individuals when it's merited. You indicate above that things could stay this bad for so long purely because of the conduct of a single editor. Magioladitis has been before ArbCom twice and at these boards who knows how many times. Now you say the reason Magioladitis is still around is because of tolerance. But why be tolerant when, as you say, AN/ANI or ArbCom could effectively be rid of the intolerable conduct wrought solely by Magioladitis against innocent bystanders? These claims are not consistent with one another unless you admit that Magioladitis is not solely at fault, or unless you are calling the community stupid. I'll assume good faith on your part, however, and assume you mean to say that Magioladitis is not solely at fault. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 10:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality. | |||
| ***********You appear to be having trouble reading and comprehending what I wrote. This is the second time you have said I said something that I clearly did not. There will not be a third. To explain further - I said AN/ANI and Arbcom do have a history of cutting editors loose who cause too much disruption. In Magioladitis case they have extended time and again various options in order to keep them around. These are obviously not mutually exclusive positions - the willingness of the community to keep an editor editing is in line with the amount of good work it feels can be extracted from them. The willingness of editors to extend (an overly generous imho) effort to keep Mag editing does not mean it thinks that anyone else is at fault - it merely means Mag has not become disruptive enough yet to be banned. If you actually look at all the past discussions, sanctions, arbcom etc, you will find almost no indication that any other editor has caused any issues regarding Magioladitis other than Mag themselves. You on the other hand seem to think that because they have not been banned so far, someone else must be the problem. This has been a staple of Magioladitis defense for the past few years 'I am not the problem, everyone else is, leave me alone to do what I want to do'. And this has been soundly rejected time and again. You have used ridiculous cliché's like 'it takes two to tango' to suggest sanctioning a productive editor who is currently being harassed by another with a history of bad behaviour. Because an interaction ban *is* a sanction on an editor and requires evidence to justify it. Not 'well it cant just be Mag's fault'. So please in the form of diffs, provide evidence that BU Rob should be sanctioned. ] (]) 12:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them. | |||
| ************Stow the attitude. I'm not providing diffs because I'm not arguing Rob has culpability. I don't agree with your analysis and I'm showing the logical inconsistencies in your argumentation. I'm not misreading what you're saying. I understand full well the draconian outcome you're trying to rationalize. As for me, I would rather work for the good of the community and greater peace in the long term, and the way forward is through a mutual IBAN.{{parabr}}Both Rob and Magioladitis have stated they want to be left alone. Let's have them leave each other alone. Preserving the atmosphere of collegiality takes precedence over whatever improvements any of us individually could make to the encyclopedia, especially those improvements that could be made at a later date. At the core of your argument seems to be the spurious claim that we shouldn't make an IBAN mutual because it would be an indignity to Rob. This really isn't a credible concern. We're not punishing, we're preventing. If we were punishing, we would care about things like culpability, and the indignity of punishing the target of one user's bad behavior.{{parabr}}In any event, by your own characterization of Magioladitis there shouldn't be much of a delay between the implementation of an IBAN and Magioladitis receiving the indef block or community ban you appear to think is necessary. Honestly, this is where I am a bit confused about your position: Do you not believe Magioladitis would violate the IBAN in short order? If so, then what's there to lose? If not—that is, if Magioladitis complies with the IBAN—then how could you argue the IBAN wouldn't work? —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 13:37, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "]". ] (]) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *************"I'm not providing diffs because I'm not arguing Rob has culpability." Yes you are. You have repeatedly. You have suggested sanctioning another editor based on clichés and zero evidence. You have deliberately twice stated I said something I didn't. So any 'attitude' you receive, like Mag, is entirely of your own doing. Since you decline to provide any evidence another editor deserves sanctioning, I can safely assume there is no evidence that anyone else is at fault. Thanks for confirming it. ] (]) 13:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.}} | |||
| **************Um, no. I'm not arguing culpability. I'm suggesting applying a nonpunitive IBAN to two editors who can't get along. Culpability isn't required for a sanction, only that the sanction will cure the underlying behavior. Nor do I have to provide evidence that Rob is disruptive: The disruption caused by their interactions, regardless of how well-intentioned they may be, is evidence enough. You've not provided one substantive reason why a mutual IBAN is improper here, while I've provided numerous arguments why one would work great. All you've done is said it's unfair to punish Rob with an IBAN, but as I've explained, that's flat out wrong. This is not punitive. Moreover, any sanction that Magioladitis receives won't be to provide relief to Rob, but to protect the community. You can go on denying that if you like, of course. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 14:46, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between ] and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself. | |||
| *****{{U|Only in death}} what ways do you want me to change? The ArbCom case examined the part of my editing and my contact with people. I had no issues with my edits or whatsever after that. I have only one request: The community to find a way that Rob and me do not inteact for a while. Any try to have interaction has gone bad. Maybe it's my fault or I don't know. Rob does not seem to understand that a while I do not want any comments from him in my talk page or in the areas I am trying to contribute. To be honest, I have tried to interact in various occassions but it seems my actions are understood as impollite the same way I understand Rob's actions. -- ] (]) 09:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.}} | |||
| ******You are an editor who has no intention of desisting from editing in the BOT area, asking the community to prevent one of the other experienced editors in the BOT area from interacting with you when you have an extended history of causing issues is ridiculous. Per ] given your history, every editor with even a passing interest in the bot area could watch you like a hawk and it would be justified by policy. ] (]) 09:15, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails ] doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass ] and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example | |||
| *******{{U|Only in death}} I already have a ban in the bot related area which I respect so any action here is not related to bots and bot policies. I have not even made an automated edit the last month (and perhaps more). I pursuit to change area and switch back to things I 've been doing before bot work. This includes all types of gnome editing, template standardsation and participating in xFD discussions. I already found a compromise with Rob on some parts. I do not discuss bot policy, he does not get heavily involved in CHECKWIKI project. I think we should and can extend that. I think there is field of communication. There is bad faith on the air but we need to find a way (even if it technical in the beginning) to work it out. Something like "no comments to other's talk page" would suit me. It's not the first time I write this. Rob needs to give me space. There are other admins out there to discuss matters with me. -- ] (]) 09:24, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".}} | |||
| ******** {{xt|There are other admins out there to discuss matters with me.}} I have tried and you didn't like me discussing matters with you, to the point where you ignored and refused to answer questions I put to you, then complained that I might have had your talk page on my watchlist. (The background here is that Rob expressed a concern that Magioladitis behaviour might have been stalking, so I offered to ask). I arrived at your talk page, asked a series of questions to try and get to the bottom of the issue, and I'm still waiting for answers concerning your behaviour, but since we're here and talking about your behaviour - I'll ask again, how exactly did you find the edits Rob had made to some old images proposing their deletion if you weren't stalking his edits ? The reality, as I see it now, is that you don't want anybody to discuss anything with you, you want carte blanche to continue your disruptive behaviour, that you've gone rogue and are now a loose cannon on deck. If you intend to avoid a site ban, you need to think fast and explain now what you're going to do to change your behaviour. ] (]) 10:14, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have ] issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass ] before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. ] 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ********* ] I think I replied to all your questions. Check my talk page. The fact that I arrived to this image it was an unlucky coincidence. I stated my comments in the FfD. I offered my email to you for further communication exactly because it was a concern about the Magio-Rob interaction. I am willing to reply to any questions about everything and I never denied an discussion with you at any point. -- ] (]) 10:21, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ********* ] I am willing to take a wikibreak for a month of needed. I still need someone to ensure that Rob won't reply to other in my talk page. -- ] (]) 14:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ********** I believe a short break on your part would be useful. It should not be a way to avoid an interaction ban or other sanction however. ] (]) 16:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that ''is'' in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. ] 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * It's quite clear that Magioladitis behaviour is now at the boundary of net positive/net negative to the project. The behaviour on-wiki is clearly a net negative for the project but is offset by outreach and technical contributions to the wider Wikimedia project. I support an interaction ban but I'm also not opposed to a straight site ban (of fixed duration - 6 months to 1 year in the first instance). This behaviour cannot be permitted further. ] (]) 06:25, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the ] policy. I propose and '''support''' a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating ], they gain that necessary understanding/competence. ] (]) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** ] the interaction ban is the first step to take. If this does not work we will have to think of stronger enforcements. But I am confident interaction ban will work. -- ] (]) 06:28, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''SUPPORT''' ban from article creation. ] ] 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ** ] I do not have good interctions with Rob. I don't critise the comments themselves but the fact that I get so many comments by him and that he keeps writing on my talk page even to third-parties. Do you think it's normal that he replies to others in my talk page after all this things that have happened? -- ] (]) 08:15, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' article creation ban. ] (]) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Comment:''' While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. ]. ] 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support one-way I-ban'''--Notwithstanding Magio's outright false accusations, his terrible on-wiki behaviour and the fact that two ArBCom cases coupled with the general views of the community about his actions have not eased things up, I feel we could give him one very last opputunity before we seek to site-ban him.]<sup>]</sup> 06:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*:Hello, I think the issue might have been with the article describing the events as "course of hostilities" which could make it seem like it was a continuous conflict. I've fixed that to make it clear now. ] (]) 18:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *No opinion on I-ban; site ban doesn't seem justified. Supportive of a bot operation / high speed editing ban on the general principle that running bots is outside of our "anyone can edit" principle, so people who do it should be held to high standards. I wrote some similar things in the discussion sections of Mag's two arb cases if anyone cares. It's also perfectly fine to be a bot developer without operating the bots on the live server. Test the bot on an article or two or in some userspace pages, then let someone else do the production runs. That's how most real-life system software works anyway (the programmers and the operators are separate sets of people). ] (]) 07:03, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *Given the overlap an I-ban is worthless and implies that Rob actually should be restricted in some way - anything that would restrict him from the good work he does regarding bots should be shot down. I would support anything from a one-way I-ban for Mag, up to and including a complete ban from bot-related editing, or even a site ban at this point. Its clear from the evidence presented he has been stalking Rob's edits in order to harass him and is just the last in a long list of anti-social behavior. ] (]) 07:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Support''' Ban. | |||
| **{{U|Only in death}} where is shown that I am stalking his edits? On the contrary Rob has been even commeting my ta page addressing to others: . My talk page is clarly in his watchlist. What is part of my behavior? I feel that I am being stalked and I came directly to the community. --- ] (]) 08:03, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :] (]) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ***Rob has presented evidence in the form of diffs that indicate you have been going through his past edits - and linked to the relevant discussions where your concerns were investigated and found to have no legitimate reason to do so. You on the other hand have presented.... what? ] (]) 08:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with ]. ] (]) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **As I state above, if these two cannot get along professionally, and their interactions are so damaging to the community as to outweigh the benefits of their contributions to any particular area of Misplaced Pages, then who cares what benefits either provides to bots? IBAN them from each other. If one or the other is gaming it to lock the other out of bots, then that person will be sanctioned. The logical leap that an IBAN means that Rob would somehow be restricted from doing "good work" on bots goes too far. Rather, this would let Rob get back to work. I am unconvinced that any overlap here is actually a problem. These are intelligent individuals. If one is obsessed with the other, then that one will violate the IBAN in pretty short order. The implication that this longstanding problem, that has not resulted in a siteban despite two ArbCom cases and untold other drama, can be cured entirely by cutting one person out of the equation is contrary to everything I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages. Disputes don't last this long unless there's at least some toxicity on both sides. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 08:57, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored. | |||
| ***There is no issue with the two of them getting along professionally. There is an issue with Magioladitis stalking another editor's edits in a vindictive attempt to get revenge for being blocked from playing with his favorite toy. "The implication that this longstanding problem, that has not resulted in a siteban despite two ArbCom cases and untold other drama, can be cured entirely by cutting one person out of the equation is contrary to everything I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages." Well you clearly have not paid attention, Misplaced Pages at AN and Arbcom have a long history of cutting disruptive editors out. It stops the disruption extremely quickly. "Disputes don't last this long unless there's at least some toxicity on both sides." Ah the Donald Trump 'both sides' approach. Yeah that argument has no basis in fact. ] (]) 09:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. ] (]) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ****Wow. I think we have a new version of Godwin's Law being born here. I'm weirdly honored. Anyway, to get to the logical inconsistencies in your response, compare {{tq|Misplaced Pages at AN and Arbcom have a long history of cutting disruptive editors out. It stops the disruption extremely quickly.}} with the facts. Neither AN/ANI nor ArbCom have taken the step of "cutting out" any particularly disruptive editor here, nor has there been any cure it would seem. As I said before, if these two editors cannot get along professionally, then require them to stop interacting. If Magioladitis is the panting, drooling, unhinged monster you make them out to be, then the IBAN will be violated in very short order, and we'll move to a proper siteban. Honestly, even for ANI, I am stunned with how quickly the torches and pitchforks came out. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:10, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! ] (]) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *****I'm not sure if you are being deliberately dense or you genuinely are unable to read an archive. You do know AN/ANI has handled hundreds of site ban discussions for disruptive editors right? Likewise Arbcom over the years has often site-banned editors. ] (]) 09:22, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. ] 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ******As I say above, you can't have it both ways. AN/ANI and ArbCom can't be so effective at handling disruptive editors as you claim, yet impotent to handle what you are painting as a clear-cut, one-sided, obvious case. Come on now. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 10:10, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I dunno. ] (]) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''I support an indefinite topic ban from all pages relating to automation, broadly construed'''. This will resolve the interaction issues, as this is the topic area that the interactions were being made from. The community has ''clearly, repeatedly, and continuously'' expressed their frustrations, concerns, and their lack of confidence with Magioladitis' judgment in this topic area, as well as exhausted community resources and time (including ''numerous'' talk discussions on many pages, ''multiple'' ANI discussions, and '''two''' ArbCom cases - and to no avail), and this topic ban will resolve the concerns and put and end to it completely. Most importantly, this topic ban will allow Magioladitis to remain a member of the project (a logical and fair alternative to a full site ban) and give him the chance to contribute positively and be a ] in other topic areas, while prohibiting him from the topic area that we agree will cause him to become a net negative. This will also place the ball completely in his court; either things will go well and we won't have any more problems, or they wont - and we'll know that the writing is clearly on the wall. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 07:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. ] (]) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I would like to put on record that, as a Software Engineer myself and as someone who has a passion for computers, code, scripts, and automation (that probably cannot be matched with the level of passion that Magioladitis has for the same thing)........... this was very very hard for me to write. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 08:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::As I have said in several other venues, technical ability without the ability to work with other people is useless. --''']]]''' 02:42, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I completely agree. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 09:22, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **{{U|Oshwah}} I recently had interactions with Rob in an FfD and in a rights request. This is outside the automation area. It turns we iinteract in more areas than expected. -- ] (]) 08:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' apart from a possible boomerang for Magioladitis for filing a completely frivolous case in his section, I don't see anything actionable here. Magioladitis should possibly be admonished, but unless you're willing to agree to a two-way IBAN I don't see anything else that can be done. It's clear you don't like each other, is it possible for you to not like each other without involving ANI in it? ] (], ]) 19:12, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===More evidence=== | |||
| * Rob interacts with me in a template: | |||
| * Rob comments to other in my talk page on an AWB issue: | |||
| * Evidence of ofwiki communication : This did not happen in Nick's page. | |||
| This shows that the intearaction is not limited in one area. I am requesting i-ban for months now. -- ] (]) | |||
| :I found that template because you showed up in my watchlist converting many pages to use {{tl|Official website}} instead of a regular hyperlink, with some of those changes resulting in errors due to bad data on Wikidata. Your edits were highly visible because you did a large number of them from a non-bot-flagged account, something editors have been trying to get you not to do for years; that's on you. I quietly reverted the erroneous addition to the documentation because I thought that was the path-of-least-drama; the alternative would be to start an ANI or something to get others to do it. As for "off-wiki communication", ] states to pass issues to uninvolved admins as necessary, which is what I did; I posted openly in #wikipedia-en-admins on IRC, a channel available to every enwiki admin, asking someone to look at the de-PROD. I suggested no particular action for them to take, just asked for eyes on it. This is what the policy tells me to do. I have never privately communicated with anyone off-wiki about Magioladitis' behavior, such as by email, as Magioladitis has claimed (except to the Arbitration clerks when asking them to look at the personal-attack-riddled evidence section). I did it where any admin could see. I was ''trying'' to avoid the drama of ANI, though I'll just take it here in the future, given how severe things have become. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 12:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I will refrain from any comments in your talk page. Please, respect me and do the same. I don't want to avoid control of my editing. I only ask you to limit your interactions with me to the minimum. Is that not possible? -- ] (]) 14:29, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have no problem doing that, mostly because I've been doing it already. The totality of interactions with you since the second ArbCom case have been you coming to my talk page to complain about a 9-month-old comment, you de-PRODing a file I PRODed for no apparent reason, and my intentionally brief oppose to your request for template editor (where you responded by personally attacking me). Where in that do you see a lot of unnecessary interaction on my part? ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 14:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::For the first: I believe that you tried to defame my work outside the frame of the ArbCom scope since my work is much more than just the bot editing. I think your comments were negative and unjustified. For the second: I had a reason because I worked in a smiliar way that we do not speedy delete redirects that are too old because of incoming links, etc. The FfD was the right route and as you see I did not pursuit further. The third one was only an echoing of that unfortunate situation. I have good intentions and I really would like that we discuss in a better environment. -- ] (]) 15:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' what is this supposed to be evidence of? There is no existing IBAN, and this behavior is generally fine without one. Most of these diffs are very stale, and is a very weak argument; I would expect somebody familiar with the case could figure out everything Nick said without detailed off-wiki conversation. {{ping|Magioladitis}}, apart from the single comment at ], do you have any diffs from September or October that are relevant? ] (], ]) 16:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :] I am not sure if there are more diffs since I have done little editing the past 2 months due to my busy schedule. The thing that annoys me is that after my topic ban to bot policy I decided to switch back to other areas I have been editing for long time (xFds, ], Wikidata transition, etc.) and I still find Rob in all the forums I try to comment or act. So I do not want to see more drama with this person and I would like to protect myself somehow. Seeing the same person commenting in every BRFA I submitted, replying to people in my talk page it's too much. I do not want to see that happening again; at least for a while. Even his nomination for BAG member had a specific mention to CHEKCWIKI, a project I 've been running for years. -- ] (]) 18:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: OK, I've seen enough. The last BRFA he interacted with you on was ]. Your only interaction with BU_Rob13 at XfD appears to be ], after you declined a PROD. This obviously isn't stalking or hounding on his part. I think you're acting in bad faith with this complaint, and after two ARBCOM cases I see no reason to give you more time. I '''Support''' any sanction up to a site ban of Magioladitis if this farce continues. ] (], ]) 19:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::] The de-prod led to a complain and then there was on more interaction in the rights page but there is a long history of comments in the past. Rob, I think, has agreed to stay away from my talk page and I'll stay away from his. I think we are finding a solution here. Some other misunderstandings have also been discussed in this thread. Don't you think that the situation de-escalates via this disscussion? -- ] (]) 19:58, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' There is no doubt that BURob has been very active in putting the case against Magioladitis in a number of fora in recent years. I think we may also accept without cavil that Magioladitis sees this as going beyond "just happening to be involved in that area", and that even if wrong, this is not an unreasonable belief. | |||
| :Therefore it would be wise of BURob to avoid this sort of behaviour, unless we are to believe that no other editor is ready, willing and able to present the other side of the coin to that proposed by Magioladitis. I am pleased to see from the above comments that he is trying to disengage, though I have to admit it comes as a surprise given history of these interactions. | |||
| :All the best: ''] ]'',<small> 18:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| ::I've voiced my opinion, certainly, but I must insist on noting that I have started a grand total of ''one'' discussion about Magioladitis ever. This is compared to Magioladitis starting at least four discussions about me this year alone (two attempts at revoking one of my bot approvals, this discussion, and a discussion falsely claiming I gave false advice about bots). Ever since Magioladitis openly speculated about my location on-wiki, I have not felt particularly safe interacting with him, and so I have taken quite a bit of personal attacks, harassment, etc. from him without comment. It would have been possible/reasonable to take him to ANI after just about any of the incidents I noted above, but I never did, because I don't want to deal with the ensuing interactions. I've tried the "Ignore him and he'll go away" strategy from grade school pretty much since the beginning. No luck so far, although I remain hopeful. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 19:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::The location comment came from my will to meet you in person and de-escalate any misunderstandings that have happenned on-wiki. If you check by that time many people were discussing who and how they go to Wikimania. If you think this was insulting or outing attempt, you can request the hide the edit in question. I apologise if you felt that way but my intention is to descalate any situation that has happened with you and not the opposite. I have met many of the people participating in the project offline and I always try to meet the people who contribute to the project. -- ] (]) 19:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *I would be ''very'' opposed to a two-way interaction ban here. Besides the fact that legitimate criticism != harassment and that BURob13 has done nothing wrong here, it sets the precedent that all someone has to do is cry "harassment!!!!" and the admin is sanctioned at ANI. I would support a site ban for Magioladitis. I just don't think he understands or will listen to criticism. --''']]]''' 02:40, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{U|Rschen7754}} Rob has also made supportive comments in my BRFAs and has replied to others in my talk page. I am not complaining about critisism here. -- ] (]) 03:18, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Since Rob has said that he won't comment in my talk page (in addition to the fact that he has already walked away from CHECKWIKI bot related discussions), I am OK satisfied that we are finding a way to cooperate in a solution here. From my side we can close the thread. -- ] (]) 03:18, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't think it's a coincidence that this thread was filed against me 3 minutes after I said I had reached my breaking point and was going to file something when I got home. I also don't think it's a coincidence the person filing this ANI desperately requesting protection against something that wasn't even happening is suddenly happy to pack up and go home as soon as it's clear the community isn't buying the baseless accusations. Personally, I'm very tired of this, and I'd like an actual solution. This very thread is the latest attempt to target me, and so I just don't buy that this will go away if nothing is done. It's about two ArbCom cases and a half dozen ANI threads late for another chance. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 03:27, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have told you that I am going to seek solution even before the second ArbCom. I am not sure why you want to have so much intearction with me. You have commented in all my BRFAs. What was the reason to even reply to others in my talk page? E.g. and one minute later this: . And these examples were during the cases. Do not you think this causes extra stress to me? Can you please name me another person you had so much interaction as with me? Were you just trying to help? you commented in m BRFA '''1''' minute after I posted. Here: , , , , , , (and in many other places) you were the first to comment and all comments were within less than an hour. Here within 2 minutes: . Sometimes you comment to me that fast you had to reconsider: . Some things I do may seem to be outdated (like my comments about trying to defame me etc) but this is because of my workload. I am trying to find a way to cooperate with you but for reason it fails. I do not try to limit your actions as admin and I would like to find a solution that you keep commenting when necessary but we do not interact that much. Sometimes with your comments you seem to want me out of the project. I have told you already that your actions, whether you wanted it or not, led others outside the project. We would not be doing this. Doing your admins tasks is not a reason to comment that much in the places I comment and participate. Misplaced Pages has many admins to control. I do not try to defame your work but sometimes you seem to act too much when it comes to me. -- ] (]) 03:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC). | |||
| :::Those diffs from the BRFAs come less than week after all of Magioladitis' bot approvals were revoked for cause. He chose to file 25 BRFAs within 48 hours, which was extremely noticeable, since it caused the ] page to basically break. Since the issues with the past bot approvals that led to revocation were mostly caused by lack of oversight, yes, I went through as many as I had time to check and evaluated them. I supported many and opposed a few or asked for more details. I think I commented on about half of the 25, which is consistent with the number of BRFAs I comment on generally – I am, after all, a BAG member. That's what the community wanted to happen when the bot approvals were revoked. The only reason there's so many diffs is because he spammed the bot approval process. This was way back in February, for the record, not recent at all. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 14:27, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| This may get me an SPI but I agree with Magioladitis, in part. You've stressed him out a lot, and two of you used this API to argue with each other (ahem, Only in death and Mendaliv, that's not what we do on the Administrators Noticeboard.). I hate to be the voice of doom, but nobody else has commented for hours now. We've had a result already.This API is dead, let's close it. Sorry if this tone offends anybody, it's not intentional. ] (]) 11:47, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't think it "offends anybody", but I do have to confess that I don't have much idea what you're talking about here. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> ]</span> 11:58, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is perhaps the harshest criticism of ANI that I've ever seen; if we don't implement a sanction without thinking within hours, the whole thread is dead? Harsh (but possibly accurate). In any event, multiple editors have called for a site ban. At this point, if nothing is done, I'll probably kick it to ArbCom as a dispute the community is unable to solve. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 13:44, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think it's reasonable to go back to ArbCom honestly. I'm very uncomfortable with the torches-and-pitchforks attitude that has dominated this discussion, as well as the "It's 100% Magioladitis" attitude, which strikes me as hopelessly simplistic. We should seek a nuanced outcome, and the Committee at least provides a structure in which nuance can exist. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 17:06, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::The diffs in Magioladitis's post of 03:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC) are all pretty stale. The most recent one is from July 10, and most of the remainder are from February 2017. — ] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> (]) 13:52, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] Yes. In my first attempts to do something else after 2 months of rarely editing I had two bad interactions after months of a lot of interctions with Rob. That's why I came here. If I want to edit I just need less stress from Rob. -- ] (]) 14:00, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Outcome=== | |||
| Editors have supported various outcomes above. Can we come to some consensus to avoid having to return to ArbCom for Magioladitis 3? ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 20:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :<small>Pinging all editors who previously commented on this section, as they likely would be interested in commenting below (except those who ''already'' commented below). {{re|SlimVirgin|Alex Shih|Oshwah|EEng|DoRD|David Eppstein|Only in death|Nick|Godric on Leave|Rschen7754|Power~enwiki|TomBarker23|Begoon|Diannaa}} ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 21:59, 19 October 2017 (UTC)</small> | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any outcome here. This case belongs at ArbCom. All involved deserve a nuanced decision and a careful look at the facts. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 20:44, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * I think a couple of trout would do better. Rob knows that he need not jump in on anything Magioladitis proposes, and that it will cause drama and stress. Magioladitis knows he should not "rise to the bait" as this exacerbates the situation. | |||
| : Magioladitis is quite responsive to other editors, in the present case he followed Sladen's advice, and the issue is resolved. | |||
| : All the best: ''] ]'',<small> 21:04, 19 October 2017 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| *I think Rob's evidence of hounding is strong enough that, at a bare minimum, Magioladitis needs to be admonished not to do that. I would prefer stronger outcomes, though. —] (]) 22:07, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' (a) This situation is indeed one-sided; BU Rob has done nothing wrong. (b) Something has to happen here to make Magioladitis realize that he's ''again'' wasted a hell of a lot of people's time. Since (other than that) he hasn't done anything recently to piss me off personally, for the moment I'm open to anything from trout on up, and I'd like to hear others' opinions. ''']]''' 22:08, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well, despite his claim that he does not "initiate" anything, he has initiated this sub-section and initiated a mass ping. He also initiated objections to Magioladitis not being granted TE privileges. That's within the last couple of days. He has also initiated discussions on Magioladitis's BRFAs. | |||
| ::Really BU Rob behaves pretty well elsewhere, but I do find his behaviour WRT Magioladitis lacking. | |||
| ::All the best: ''] ]'',<small> 22:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| :::Of course he's initiated this subsection. Something needs to be done about Magioladitis' nonsense. ''']]''' 02:14, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::And his initiation of this subsection was more editorial than contributory - notice he hasn't put forward a proposal here, just tried to make one place for summations rather than having it interspersed with the discussion. He didn't say, "Ok, how are we going to get Magioladitis punished today?", he asked to see if the community could find a resolution here before kicking to ArbCom. ] (]) 18:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * A few suggestions for Magioladitis. (1) Don't pop in on Rob's talk page and demand an apology in September for a remark he made in January. That's ancient history in Internet years. Likewise, when making your case here at ANI, don't pull up stuff from months ago to demonstrate your point. Time to start fresh and let the auld stuff go. Rob certainly seems to be trying to do that. (2) Don't request any added permissions or such for quite a while. You were only recently de-sysopped. (3) Find something fresh to do that is useful and technical yet outside your previous work. Suggestions: formatting citations such as at ]; working on ]; and the like. Perhaps I'm naive :). Also, see ]. — ] <span style="color:red">🍁</span> (]) 22:29, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' my preferred outcome would be for a voluntary two-way IBAN. And, to suggest a new area, perhaps one of you could try to improve the ] article. <small>Don't both volunteer at once.</small> ] (], ]) 03:03, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''': {{ec}} I agree with ]. There's nothing wrong on Rob's part. For Magioladitis, ] (and many others) really confirms they are not hearing ''anything'' that's being said. I find ]'s suggestions very helpful, and I would propose to format these suggestions into formal editing restriction. The idea is to get the user to contribute productively without continuously wasting the time of everybody here in English Misplaced Pages. ]] 03:07, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''I also agree with EEng''', thus: | |||
| :*I '''strongly oppose''' <u>any</u> sanction on BU Rob, who has done nothing wrong; | |||
| :*I '''support an indefinite topic ban from all pages relating to automation, broadly construed for Magioladitis''', as suggested by Oshwah, above; | |||
| :*And a '''''warning for Magioladitis''''': One can be competent as a bot engineer, and '''''incompetent''''' at Misplaced Pages, and it is increasingly apparent -- to me at least -- that you may well be the latter. Thus, if a discussion like this comes up again, the only sanction I will be strongly supporting is an indef site ban for you. You have clearly crossed the threshold between net positive and net negative, and only your previous contributions prevents me from supporting that sanction right now. ] (]) 03:38, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *I still '''support an indefinite topic ban from all pages relating to automation, broadly construed for Magioladitis''' and for the exact reasons I . Having reviewed this ANI discussion in its entirety, as well as the discussions and pages that started this ANI discussion - I find that BU Rob13 has not violated any behavioral policies or guidelines with his interactions or discussions with Magioladitis. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 05:30, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{U|Oshwah}} did you get under consideration and the older diffs from February I added? Rob said that one of the reasons h was doing is that he is BAG member dut he was confirmed as BAG member in July i.e. 4 months later. ] says that "where they contribute, to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages." I have indicated many places where Rob has interacted with me. For example how does make any sense? We had multiple interactionsot limited to automation. a) Template documentation b) Policy page c) Multiple interactions in BRFA d) User talk pages e) Rights request f) xFD. And probably other which I forget. -- ] (]) 05:43, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Concur with EEng, Alex, Oshwah, BMK etc. I still favour a complete automation ban per Oshwah as a minimum and a strong admonishment to stay away from BU Rob. ] (]) 07:34, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Kick to ArbCom''' - I largely agree with EEng here and on the face of it I support a time-limited site ban for Magioladitis for what appears to be a long-term and ongoing campaign of harassment, false accusations and presumptions of bad faith, and no sanctions for BU Rob13 who is clearly being harassed and nonetheless has tried to minimize the situation and avoid harm to the project. However, Mag apparently genuinely feels that ''he's'' the one being harassed, although to be as civil as I can, he's stunningly failed to make that case. There's a lot of evidence to consider here, plus allegedly offline evidence, and this is just the sort of situation that Arbcom is set up to examine and resolve. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 13:00, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:<small> Is there a record on how quickly one has gone from receiving a significant sanction from ArbCom, to appearing in front of ArbCom again? ] (]) 17:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC) </small> | |||
| ::{{U|PGWG}} Smooth. I also tried to joke today but you know this situation has caused a lot of stress so please be more carfull with these comments. I am trying to find a compromise where I will cooperate with people. I am not perfect but a) Not seeing any of my contribution appreciated hurts (I am referring to older Rob's messages) b) Seeing that someone follows everything I do because he thinks this way implements some "community demands" is not very nice. You know a small talk would help and this is what I am trying. Some people here deny to talk to me and just pose threats. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> | |||
| :::{{U|Magioladitis}} None of the concerns being raised here are different from concerns raised multiple times in the past, it's just a new set of diff's. Why are you only now trying to find that compromise? This is an honest question, not intended as a slight in any way. I don't think that anyone does not appreciate some of your contributions, I believe I've seen Rob in the past support and complement aspects of your bot work. But the balance of the conversation at hand has occurred in the past (just in smaller venues or with less participants disagreeing with your behaviour), so what is the difference between then and now? As far as my comment, while I do not feel it was out of line I apologise if it caused you additional distress. ] (]) 19:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] Because after the ArbCom I am trying to make a clean start by moving to areas that have not to do with bots etc. I acted a bit pre-emptive here because I would like to be sure that thy are no hard feelings around and my work from now on won't be judged based on the previous situations. I already have written somewhere that people, including myself, tend to be more impolite when typing an sometimes written text can be read in multiple ways. -- ] (]) 19:34, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :It is possible that a case request could be handled by motion considering how recent the last case was. --''']]]''' 18:24, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * I'm very confused as to what Magioalditis is trying to achieve here. I can understand they are well-intentioned but what I also observe is a total failure to get the point. The entire thread has been a trainwreck, with irrelevant issues getting dragged in and out for no reasons at all. I can understand Rob's frustration here, considering they were not intending to send the ] message, the point being, they too are well-intentioned here. I believe any kind of sanction on Magioalditis will not hold as of now (except a site ban) due to the lack of competence, and the underlying fact is they are at the end of their ], so either you hang on to the bit you have or don't. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif">] (] • ])</span> 19:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ** I think it's pretty clear that he was trying to get a break from the scenario where every time he made a proposal, there was BURob opposing it. Having walked a mile in those shoes, I can sympathise. Let us hope, as BURob says, that it is not intentional, but while he states that he is trying to avoid Magioladitis he was I believe the first to comment on his request for TE rights. He also was instrumental in getting Magioladitis removed from BAG IIRC, where BURob effectively took his seat. He also continued to post, again I believe mainly negatively, on Magioladitis' BRFAs, despite saying that he was recusing as a BAG member, and claimed the remarks were in a "non-hatted" capacity. | |||
| :: All the best: ''] ]'',<small> 20:13, 20 October 2017 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| :::Incorrect on all counts. I was the second-to-last to comment on his TE rights, as I only noticed it once another editor also requested TE rights and I saw it on my watchlist. I wrote a simple two sentence oppose to Magioladitis' reconfirmation and was one of the last editors to comment, as opposed to most other editors writing at least a paragraph in opposition. I've repeatedly supported Magioladitis' BRFAs when they've demonstrated consensus and followed the bot policy, as demonstrated by Sladen's diffs below. In the future, please verify your claims and accusations before making them, {{U|Rich Farmbrough}}, as required by ]. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 14:21, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Just for funsies here are some some figures that show the some of Rob's involvement with Magioladitis (not all of it negative of course). I think people will understand where Magioladitis is coming from better if they take this into account: | |||
| {| class="wikitable" | |||
| ! Page | |||
| ! Number of edits | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||43 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||5 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||1 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||30 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||109 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||12 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||119 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||1 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||3 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||1 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||4 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||3 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||1 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||3 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||1 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||5 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||4 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||1 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||6 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||1 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||8 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||17 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||7 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||4 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||7 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||7 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||3 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||1 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| |]||2 | |||
| |- | |||
| | '''Total''' || '''429''' | |||
| |} | |||
| 429 edits directed at a single user isn't even remotely funny. When I started editing Misplaced Pages this would have put you halfway to the most active Wikipedians list on its own. And this doesn't include comments on pages such as AN/I, Arbcom requests for cases, Bots noticeboard, BAG noticeboard etc.. | |||
| All the best: ''] ]'',<small> 21:07, 20 October 2017 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| ::260 of those edits are from a single Arbcom case in which BU Rob was one of the named parties, so it's entirely unsurprising that he'd be commenting repeatedly there. Discount those, and you have a picture of someone who's made 48 talkpage comments and a few comments on BRFAs. You can prove almost anything by running an interaction analysis on two editors who are both active in the same area; . (Note, before someone complains, that I'm ''not'' making this allegation; it's just intended to illustrate what a blunt-force approach this is.) ‑ ] 21:32, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes I '''could''' have used a blunt force approach, instead I narrowed the cut to items where '''indisputably''' BU ROb is addressing Magioladitis. IF you are running the tool, look also at the min time between edits. With you and Magioladitis that is 6 hours, and rapidly rises. With BU Rob in the above (and many other places) it's seconds to minutes. All the best: ''] ]'',<small> 21:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| ::::<small>(For the record).</small> Clicking and reading the last four BAG links provided by Rich (Yobot 54‒58) gives a date range of five months (25 March 2017‒20 August 2017): | |||
| ::::*] {{xt|"As one of the harshest critics of Magioladitis, I have to say, I think he's being treated extremely unfairly here. …"}}" (25 March 2017) | |||
| ::::*] {{xt|"… I support the use of general fixes in this task provided "Skip if genfixes only" is checked and the edit summary indicates general fixes may be applied. I see no reason to deny the use of general fixes running alongside a main task. …"}} (24 July 2017) | |||
| ::::*] {{xt|"… I would be very supportive of running this task from the Yobot account manually to both solve the issue of false positives and prevent watchlist spam. This is an obviously beneficial fix."}} (6 August 2017) | |||
| ::::*] {{xt|"… I strongly support this task. …"}} (20 August 2017) | |||
| ::::Four apparently positive comments (speaking in support of a proposed Yobot tasks), across five months. | |||
| ::::—] (]) 22:03, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Actually, the majority of my edits on the last case's workshop were directed at Beetstra, not Magioladitis. I tend to swing back and copyedit my own comments, so edit counts are (as always) less than the full story in terms of total interactions. In any event, you've shown that I was active in the two ArbCom cases and that I'm active at BRFAs – both things I am not contesting in any way, and both things that are in no way indicative of hounding. If you look at all the other BRFAs from the same time periods, you'll find I was quite active there as well. The only difference between other bot operators and Magioladitis is that the latter filed 25 requests in 48 hours, resulting in more edits spent reviewing them. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 10:53, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{U|BU Rob13}}. …]. —] (]) 08:15, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::So there's certainly a history. I agree with the above that numbers alone aren't enough, but this absolutely destroys any arguments that Magioladitis is just roving around attacking anybody. It strikes me that this pretty well supports a conclusion that this is just BAG drama that boiled over because one editor might have been less resilient than the other. This is why I've so firmly opposed ANI action on this: It's clear that this case is far more nuanced than a classic knee-jerk ANI action is capable of appropriately addressing. While I'm typically in favor of people who behave calmly and professionally than those who do not, the attitude I'm seeing among Magioladitis's most vociferous detractors in this thread has more or less balanced the scales in my eyes. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 22:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Kick to the ArbCom-BAG Joint Subcommittee on Automation-Related Disciplinary Matters'''. They have the expertise and the time to examine all the evidence and come to the proper conclusion. ] (]) 07:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Propose indef ban for Magioladitis=== | |||
| The incompetence shown again, and again, and again, is just staggering. Looking at his edits today, they make a proposal at ] based on utter bollocks arguments, and continue in the same vein with more nonsense when this is pointed out; and they are "alphabetising" external links to Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest and Twitter, with the caveat that they don't even know the alphabet apparently: () and , and . And . they go from the correct alphabetic order to their own idea of it. | |||
| Either they are incompetent, or they are running some badly programmed automation on their account which consistently makes the same error (which would also make them incompetent, but at a different level). | |||
| In any case, after the above discussion, seeing how they cause problems and show incompetence at nearly everything they do here, I think it is time to just say "enough is enough" and not bother with further topic bans, restrictions, ... and just end this here and now. ] (]) 09:19, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] I was mainly moving twitter at the bottom. Seriously now. Why are you so aggresive? -- ] (]) 09:23, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : this is not just moving Twitter to the bottom, it switches Facebook and Instagram as well. doesn't even have Twitter in it. You simply can't be trusted to edit or comment correctly, and this has only become worse over the years it seems. ] (]) 09:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :] OK it was a mistake while moving bullets around and having tabs open to update Wikidata at the same time. No need to scretch this that much! -- ] (]) 09:32, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''': I've not seen anything in this proposal that actually merits a siteban. Having bad ideas, which is all I can really gather from this proposal, is not and has never been a bannable offense. Even if we factor in some of Magioladitis's more confusing behavior, it's evident from the above discussion that there's something more going on here that merits a more nuanced approach. That is, this case should go back to ArbCom. This is simply not a dispute suitable for resolving with a community ban. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:30, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **It may well end up at ArbCom, but I see very few people apart from you notice anyhing "more" going on here apart from problems with Magioladitis' editing. ] (]) 09:32, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***{{ec}}As I said above, were this so simple as there being a clear good guy and clear bad guy, ArbCom or the community would have easily removed the bad guy ages ago. I think there's an emergent toxic behavioral dynamic that needs to be addressed. I don't see the point in shrieking about another editor's incompetence over a handful of diffs. Particularly when it's obvious he or she just used the wrong edit summary when updating external links to rely on Wikidata rather than manual entries. I think that's quite a helpful set of edits you list above. Big deal if the edit summary was wrong. That's not bannable. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:36, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ****Seems like circular reasoning: because ANI isn't able to solve this, I oppose ANI solving this. Let's not get into the Wikidata vs. enwiki thing though, we had those issues recently with Magioladitis changing the official website to pull the data from Wikidata, even when the value here was correct and the value at Wikidata was wrong. ''That'' aspect of these edits is of debatable value: the actual problem is what I highlighted. In itself, it is a minor issue (though rapidly spreading across a lot of pages, suggesting some script-assisted blunder), but as a symptom of everything that is wrong with the editing o Magioladitis, together with the above discussion and the proposal I linked to, it all indicates an editor who can't be trusted in their regular edits, and who is a waste of time in discussions. ] (]) 09:44, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *****Actually, I'd rather not see ANI pull off another pitchforks-and-torches answer to a "problem". And let's not skip over Magioladitis good deeds in order to reach a conclusion of irredeemability. If there's something wrong at Wikidata, you're welcome to fix it. And if Magioladitis is doing something wrong at Wikidata, you're welcome to propose some kind of resolution over there. I see nothing wrong with moving official site link information over to Wikidata so it's synced across languages. We did this with interwiki links ages ago. If you have a problem with doing it differently you're welcome to start a discussion to forbid the use of Wikidata on English Misplaced Pages.{{parabr}}I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Magioladitis is doing something with a script. I think it's far more likely that Magioladitis is just copying and pasting the templates from article to article, or from an open Notepad window or some such. I'm not sure if you've done much scripting, but it'd be way easier to just remove everything after the pipe on a line than to remove all the EL templates and replace them with a block of EL templates in a different order. You'd just use a regex and be done with it. So, come on already. All this looks like is you seeing the wrong edit summary and assuming the worst. You were wrong. Admit it and move on. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 09:53, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ******I have made no comments on what Magioladitis does or has done on Wikidata, I don't care, and I have no plans to make any resolution (or any edit at all) over there. Please explain to me where I was wrong in my opening statement? Did they try to alphabetize? Yes. Did they make a total mess of it? Yes. Whether it was script-assisted or totally by hand is not really relevant, the end result is what counts. ] (]) 09:57, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *******You were wrong in that you said Magioladitis was trying to alphabetize. Magioladitis was switching the EL templates to Wikidata and used the wrong edit summary. It's very likely Magioladitis's browser autofilled the edit summary. Big deal. How is this bannable? —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 10:00, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ********In a series of edits labeled "alphabetize" he switched the order of the templates, and still you conclude that I was wrong believing that he tried to alphabetize them? I start to understand the exasperation felt above with your debating tactics. ] (]) 10:30, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *********I've actually had a browser autofill the wrong edit summary before. It happens fairly regularly that I have to correct it, and a couple times I've hit "enter" before I caught it. I also see lots and lots of editors using incorrect edit summaries by mistake, I believe because of some builtin gadget that suggests edit summaries. Let's compare that with what you're suggesting: An English speaker who doesn't know the order of letters in the English alphabet. Even if you're right, it's not a bannable offense. This proposal is completely off-base. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 10:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **********Bye! ] (]) 11:17, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :] you mainly oppose my proposal(s). This is not a reason for anything. I can't impose VE to anyone. I made a proposal in the form of question. -- ] (]) 09:35, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::No: I oppose your false claims against BURob, I oppose your problematic editing, I oppose the false claims in your proposal and the ludicrous (and in one case highly unethical) followup statements you made there, and seeing that the problems with you stretch back for years and only increase in frequency, I see no reason to let you continue editing any longer. ] (]) 09:40, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::] convience me that my claims are false. You stated the percentage of VE edits this morning. There is no comparison data given. I wrote an idea in a place people are supposed to post ideas based on my experience with editors with no epxerience writing. You have many options: you can oppose, say "not for now", etc. I wrote an idea in the Villapge Pump that does not meet your ideas. This is not a reason for drama. We have different expriences and opinions of how people would like to use various tools in Misplaced Pages (Wikidata, VE, bots, etc). Is this a reason for that? I tried to fix some links and improve templates. If I was wrong just contact me and I'll try harder. -- ] (]) 09:47, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No need to ping me each time, I'm following this discussion. Let's see: you make a claim about VE becoming more and more popular, I show that VE isn't popular even after 5 times, and ''I'' am the one having to show you that it was even less popular one, two, three years ago? Ever heard of ]? I made an effort to substantiate my comments with actual figures, while you have done absolutely ''nothing'' at all to support any of your statements. You made factual claims to support your idea; you are the one that needs to add evidence for your claims or withdraw them. Instead, you add more nonsense and then ask me to provide more evidence for my numbers? You are simply trolling. ] (]) 09:53, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::As I said: The popularity it's based in my experience discussing with people who told me that VE is now a good tool in comparison to some years ago. I have no strong evidence but you don't see to have neither. In the ] pages it writes "Presentation from Wikimania 2013: VisualEditor - The present and future of editing our wikis". It was clearly presented as Misplaced Pages's future. Still, I hear your concerns but this could be done in a calm way. -- ] (]) 09:58, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::So you base your claims on anecdotical hearsay and on a promo Wikimania presentation from 2013? The WMF has presented LiquidThreads, Flow, ... countless things as "the future of Misplaced Pages", relying on that (certainly years later) is worrisome. And in any case, if something is, 5 years after being rolled out and four years after being called the future of Misplaced Pages, is only being used for less than 5% of the edits, then yes, I see that as strong evidence that the "more and more popular" claim is false. ] (]) 10:30, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::For 3 years, VE was incredibly slow and buggy. I think ow it's better. Fram, I made a proposal in the form of question and you know that I am one of wikicode editors and I have used VE only for test reasons. My proposal was honest. I think I understand what user friendly enviroment means and I don't think wikicode is user friendly. Still, I did not even started an RfC. I asked the community their opinion. You can concur my claims on VE's popularity. I would be more than happy to see evidence. Even for academic purposes. -- ] (]) 10:42, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::What you did was "Should we do this?" (which is a question) "Because of this, this, and this" (which aren't questions but arguments, statements of fact). You are not here because of your proposal, your question, but because you presented some rumors and wishful thinking as fact, and when asked to back these upwith evidence you just started inventing new reasons to support your proposal (and because loads and loads of other things in your editing history, the edits under discussion are just the straws that broke the camel's back). If I asked "should we ban Magioladitis" and then gave as argument "Because he is a reptilian alien" (you may insert a more realistic but baseless PA here, I took a ridiculous one to avoid being seen as calling you anything), no one would accept the defense "but I was just asking a question", and rightly so. You have been banned from discussing e.g. cosmetic edits because your honest proposals were disruptive; the intention of such a ban is not that you start making similar honest proposals on other subjects elsewhere. Your bot and automated editing have been severely restricted; the intention of these restrictions is not that you start making manual series of repetitive but incorrect edits either. Since it has become obvious (from these examples, but also e;g. from the section you started here) that the restrictions you have had so far only move the problems around but don't actually solve them, it is time to bring this to its inevitable conclusion, and ban you. ] (]) 11:17, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Fram, I used argumets given to me by people and by WMF's presentations. You may disagree with them (you called them "promo") but I support most of the changes propsoed by Mediawiki developers because I trust that they know to build a user friendly enviroment. The funny thing is that instead of holding thiss discussion in the Village Pump we are holding it her under the threat of ban that causes extra stress and drama. -- ] (]) 11:23, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Keep on digging! ] (]) 11:41, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{ec}} Oh what a bunch of garbage. The exact point of an editing restriction is that you expect the editor to do something that isn't covered by the editing restriction. You were dead wrong about the Wikidata edits, and you're dead wrong about this proposal. So what if it's a bad idea? Then say it's a bad idea and then ignore it. This is what I'm talking about elsewhere in this thread about the torches and pitchforks approach. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 11:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::"The exact point of an editing restriction is that you expect the editor to do something '''unproblematic''' that isn't covered by the editing restriction." There, I've corrected your claim, you forgot a word. Oh, speaking of "dead wrong", ''I didn't say anything about Wikidata edits'', like I already told you above. ] (]) 11:41, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Holster the attitude. You talked about Magioladitis's edits regarding Wikidata repeatedly above. That you framed those edits as "alphabetizing" based on Magioladitis erroneously using the wrong edit summary doesn't change that. As for the purpose of editing restrictions, I think you're putting the cart before the horse: A proposal you don't agree with and a few mistaken edit summaries isn't so egregious as to violate any standing editing restrictions. I'm not even sure if what you're proposing is problematic versus simply incorrect. I ask you again, so what? —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 11:58, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I have not discussed any edits "regarding Wikidata". You invented the "but despite saying alphabetisizing in the edit summary and at the same time changing the order, these edits were not about alphabetisizing and your comment has to be about Wikidata" reasoning. ANd you are trying to have your cake and eat it, it seems: "A proposal you don't agree with and a few mistaken edit summaries isn't so egregious as to violate any standing editing restrictions." No kidding? It's not a complaint about "a proposal I don't agree with" but again, it's easier to frame it like that to make your point of course; but more importantly, I don't claim he is violating his existing editing restrictions, but that if he gets edit restricted, he finds another area to cause trouble in, as can be seen with these edits but also with the section above about BURob. So your reply simply doesn't make sense, just like many of your reasonings on this page so far. We can't solve this on ANI, because we can't solve this on ANI (see your initial oppose here), and because we can't solve it on ANI, there isn't a problem (or at most "it takes two to tango"); and now there can't be a problem with edits outside his editing restrictions, because they don't violate his editing restrictions? It seems to me that whatever arguments are given here, you fill twist logic into some unrecognisable shape to claim that the arguments don't apply because they don't apply, and if they did apply they would have been applied before. I'm done playing that game with you. ] (]) 12:16, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::{{tq|I have not discussed any edits "regarding Wikidata".}} . {{tq|It's not a complaint about "a proposal I don't agree with"}} False: Your complaint centers, quite clearly, on the fact that Magioladitis made a proposal, and it's pretty clear you don't agree with it. {{tq|I don't claim he is violating his existing editing restrictions}} Half-true: You heavily insinuate that Magioladitis's conduct violates the editing restrictions in spirit, in a clear attempt to soften your proposal by framing Magioladitis as some kind of hardened troll. {{tq|We can't solve this on ANI, because we can't solve this on ANI}} I'm not sure where you came up with that, honestly: We shouldn't handle this at ANI because it's a problem not suited for ANI, and the outcome would not resolve the cause. {{tq| now there can't be a problem with edits outside his editing restrictions, because they don't violate his editing restrictions?}} See earlier: You mention the editing restrictions in a way to unfairly and improperly demonize the conduct you seek to be the final straw in this thread: Some edits related to Wikidata and a proposal you don't like. {{tq|I'm done playing that game with you.}} As I said above, holster the attitude. You read way too far into the edit summaries on a few edits and somehow blew it up into a reason for a siteban. You being wrong isn't a reason to siteban someone else. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 12:35, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Talk about "utter bollocks arguments"! ] (]) 11:12, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *I can't believe I'm typing this, but Magioladitis is going to be banned, and it's essentially per ]. They're just moving from one area to another, causing increasing amounts of damage and disruption. I endorse the suggestion of a site ban. I wouldn't want it to be permanent, but Magioladitis ideas and editing patterns are so out of sync with the rest of the community, their edits of such poor quality, so hurried and disruptive and spread far beyond the areas where he was topic banned from, I don't see what the other options are, unless we could somehow topic ban him from discussing technical aspects of the project, making ludicrous proposals, making semi-automatic (hurried, rushed and atrociously executed) cosmetic edits and, of course, the imposition of the necessary one way I-BAN to prevent him from stalking Rob. It's basically a "we'll not ban you if you only write new content" topic ban. The lack of self-awareness and the terrible judgement in all of this that is staggering, and is the core of this problem. When he was trying to explain away his stalking of Rob, he actually posted this {{xt|I think it's normal for a person that wants to re-apply for admin to resume working in that area.}} now he's been through two Arbitration cases as the named party, forcibly de-sysopped, voted off the BAG, subject to community imposed restrictions, has a talk page archive which is complaint after complaint, and yet still thinks (a) he has done nothing wrong and (b) as an extension to that, because he's done nothing wrong, that he's going to pass RfA soon. I'm speechless and shocked at all of this. ] (]) 11:46, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **I would point out that the edits Fram complains about above aren't cosmetic, or at least weren't intentionally cosmetic: They were to change pages to use Wikidata for URLs instead of manually-entered data. That Magioladitis's attitude is less than ideal and unrealistic, I can't deny. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 12:08, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ** I recognise my mistakes thhat;s way I am moving away from things I 've been doing the last years to things I'v been doing before that. In my last comment I did not wirte that I'll run for RfA soon. I have discussed with people about it. Regaining trust needs time. -- ] (]) 23:13, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| So, to reinforce my claim of incompetence, you just posted a link to a copyright violating Youtube clip to my talk page? Keep on digging... ] (]) 11:38, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' ] comes to mind (primarily behavioral competence, not technical), as does ] and ]. One would think all of the community discussions and ArbCom cases would have given him at least some pause in his behaviour or attitude... in the interests of ] I'm going to assume he isn't deliberately acting in as incendiary a manner as possible... which brings it right into competence territory. I'm not convinced that any topic ban will be effective in the long term, as the attitude and issues seem to move from area to area. 1-way IBANs are destined to fail (in my opinion), and Rob has done absolutely nothing wrong that would justify a 2-way IBAN placed on him. ] (]) 18:12, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **You reasoning that a two-way IBAN requires that both parties be culpable is mistaken. It merely requires that it be a means of resolving a personality dispute. One-way IBANs, you are right, are destined to fail. And honestly, both Rob and Magioladitis have said they want nothing to do with one another, and that they will leave each other alone if left alone themselves. In other words, they've both effectively consented to an IBAN. In many ways, this renders this discussion moot. We should give this agreement time to take effect and see how it works. And, as I've shown in this thread, Magioladitis's Wikidata-related edits and VE-related proposal do not merit a siteban. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 06:03, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' Fram has some decent arguments to make about Wikidata. This is not the place, nor is attacking a fellow editor the way, to make them. All the best: ''] ]'',<small> 21:17, 20 October 2017 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| **Strawman much? Mendaliv is the one who started about Wikidata, and is the one who keeps bringing it up. The ban of Magioladitis is for years of problematic editing, spilling over into more and more topics, like his proposal about Visual Editor. Feel free to oppose this ban proposal, but please do so with something relevant. ] (]) 07:18, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***Dude, you misinterpreted the Wikidata edits as ones involving alphabetizing because of an erroneous edit summary. I already pointed that out to you. There is nothing villainous about these edits. You should really just drop this already. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 07:39, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ****Don't "dude" me when repeating your foolishness. ] (]) 08:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *****{{facepalm}} That you got things wrong is not my fault. Holster the attitude. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 08:33, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Cmt''' Mendaliv's suggestion ''"If there's something wrong at Wikidata, you're welcome to fix it."'' is completely off base. People who want to edit Wikidata know where it is. It has its own standards and we have ours. If Wikidata is serving up bad info, the solution from Misplaced Pages's standpoint is to not use it (WP:RS anyone?), at least without manually checking the info. Interwiki is different: the crosslinks were maintained by bots long before there was such a thing as Wikidata, and they were not part of article content. It's a useful navigation aid even if there are lots of errors, which there are. Google Translate is also very useful but we wouldn't put its output directly into articles. Wikidata isn't useless per se, but we shouldn't be mechanically inserting its contents into our articles.<p>I can't get behind the siteban proposal because we've always treated that as drastic, but Magioladitis, please, take Fram's criticism seriously. ] (]) 07:49, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :* I've no opinion either way on Wikidata (it has its uses, it has its issues) but it would be useful if Magioladitis (and indeed, everybody) could clearly explain that their edit now includes data from Wikidata, and also indicate that they've checked what's being brought in from Wikidata (as they shouldn't be changing the source of data to Wikidata without checking Wikidata is correct). ] (]) 19:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::] if you check my you will that not only I cheched my edits but I was updating Wikidata at the same time. During checking Social networkd templates, I sent some to TfD and I am updated some so that all social network templates share the same format. -- ] (]) 21:18, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Let me throw my opinion here: Blocks are for preventing damage to wikipedia, not as a punishment. Bans are also not punishment, they should be only given out when an editor is "Unclearly" acting in bad-faith, basically the mythical ] ] 09:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :That's historically untrue. The community has banned many individuals who are contributing in good-faith but doing a poor job of it to the point that they're a net negative. ], etc. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 10:56, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Request for closure=== | |||
| A somewhat biased summary and suggestion for closure: | |||
| *(1) It does not appear that there is any appreciable support for any kind of sanction against BU Rob13 for "stalking" Magioladitis, the original purpose of this thread. | |||
| *(2) None of the suggestions for sanctions against Magioladitis made by various editors appear to have anything like consensus-level support. The most that can be said may be that general annoyance with M. has reached what appears to be its highest level to date. | |||
| *(3) The suggestion to bring this to ArbCom also does not appear to have received consensus, although any editor (preferably one of the two subjects) is certainly free to file a case request at ArbCom whenever they feel it is necessary to do so. | |||
| *(4) Given (1) and (2), it might be a good idea for an uninvolved admin to close this with as "no consensus", with the possibility of a trout to Magioladitis for bringing what appears to be a baseless accusation to AN/I. ] (]) 19:37, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I concur with this assessment. I don't think it's biased either. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 23:59, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Reading some of this, it looks like it has come to nothing. ] <small>(]/])</small> 07:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'd also like this to be closed. There appears to be both consensus that Magioladitis should be sanctioned and no consensus on what that sanction should be (which, of course, makes the consensus that there should be a sanction useless). The community has never been particularly adept at handling hounding issues during my time on the site, so this will need to go to the Arbitration Committee. Hopefully, they can resolve this by motion. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 13:57, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I also concur with BMK's assessment of the situation, and with Rob's assessment that there's consensus for sanctions, but no consensus on what the sanctions should be. ] (]) 14:09, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Actually I don't concur with BMK's assessment, in part at least. Its clear from the above that at a *minimum* editors think Mag should be banned from automation completely. | |||
| :*Nick - Supports interaction ban to Site ban - both of which would restrict him in the automation area heavily. | |||
| :*Blades of Godric - supports one-way iban - given BU Rob's involvement in automation, this would also effectively restrict Mag future editing in that area. | |||
| :*IP 173. - supports automation ban | |||
| :*Myself - Anything up to and including site ban (would settle for one-way or be restricted from automation completely) | |||
| :*Oshwah - Explicitly ban from all automation | |||
| :*Power-enwiki - any sanction up to site ban | |||
| :*Rschen7754 - site ban | |||
| :*BMK - Strongly supports ban on automation | |||
| :*Fram - Site ban | |||
| :*Mendaliv - two-way iban | |||
| :*Rich Farmbrough - no sanction | |||
| :*Dianaa - no comment on restriction - advice to mag | |||
| :*EEng - no comment on restriction - has expressed that it is Mag that is the problem <small>'']]''' 06:30, 24 October 2017 (UTC)]''</small> | |||
| :*Alex Shih - no comment on restriction | |||
| :*Ivanvector - arbcom | |||
| :*QEDK - no explicit support but feels any sanction short of a site ban is justified. | |||
| :*Joefromrand - expletive. | |||
| :Did I miss anyone? Its clear from the above that apart from Mendaliv, Rich and Mag themselves, everyone else either supports a complete ban from automation or a more serious sanction, with the remaining either no explicit comment but think there are issues. Unless any of those who argued for stronger sanctions are not happy with a less extreme one, I think there is more than enough to support a complete automation ban. ] (]) 14:41, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Your summary of the !voting appears to be right, but I think your finding of consensus is wrong. Obviously, I'd like to agree with you that the automation ban (which I !voted for) has consensus, but when I look at the listing you made, I see no clear consensus at all. ] (]) 06:12, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I would oppose a complete automation ban right now as kind of pointless. The harassment/personal attack issues from Magioladitis haven't been in areas of automation lately. They've been in areas that I'm involved in but Magioladitis is not (e.g. files, my talk page, past arbitration, etc). I'm a bit confused on where the idea about a topic ban from automation even came from given that there's no new disruption since the last ArbCom case even tangentially related to automation. Color me confused. Such a sanction would actually be worse than no sanction, because it makes it look like the community is handling the issue when really they are not. That would prevent this from being kicked to ArbCom. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 16:58, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not only is it not a vote, most of those proposals weren't even on the table. Magioladitis had no fair notice of any of these alternative suggestions, and could not have mounted any real, effective defense to these myriad suggestions. All you show here is that there's no real concrete agreement on what should be done, and claim that one common denominator means that we've got consensus for sanctions. That's just not how it works, and you should know better. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 22:40, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::When you're such a stickler for accuracy, you shouldn't make claims like "Magioladitis had no fair notice of any of these alternative suggestions", a I explicitly posted a note on his talk page about my alternative solution, i.e. a full site ban. ] (]) 06:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::See below. I'm talking about notice, not service. Your proposal was the unusual exception. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 06:47, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{hat|1=This discussion is not relevant to the request for closure <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:17, 25 October 2017 (UTC)</small>}} | |||
| :::Oh pish-tosh to that: ]. Once a sanction is brought up in a discussion such as this, it's on the table: M. doesn't need to get a notification of it by certified mail or something. If he's been following the discussion, then he's had more than fair notice that these ideas were being bandied about; if he hasn't been following it, that's his own fault, since he started it. ] (]) 06:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ec}}I'm talking about notice, not service. What's being suggested here is the equivalent of saying Magioladitis consented to one or the other proposal by dint of not challenging that specific proposal. In reality, Magioladitis could not have realistically challenged any particular proposal because there was no concrete proposal on the table, except for a siteban at one point. It's simply neither fair nor feasible to require Magioladitis to challenge every single alternative proposal that was made if only because it would require a long, meandering response that nobody would read. It sets up a marvelous catch-22. But, as has been noted at ArbCom recently, using catch-22 situations to remove "the unwanteds" appears to have become ANI's trade. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 06:46, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You seem to want to turn us into a formal legal system, which just isn't going to happen. Again, ]. Bringing up a possible sanction in the discussion itself is sufficient notification, IMO. 'Nuff said.{{parabr}}As for "removing the unwanteds", I'm totally unsympathetic. If the community doesn't want an editor to be here, the editor shouldn't be here. We're a private community in which all of our participation is at the sufference of the WMF and the community of each project. If enough people think Editor X is a royal pain in the ass, Editor X should be given the heave-ho. Editor X can always ask to be reinstated, which happens pretty darn often, with the exception of the worst cases.{{parabr}}It must always be remembered that '''''this isn't real life''''', this is a project to build and improve an online encyclopedia, and anything that gets in the way of that should be gotten rid of, toot sweet. ] (]) 20:37, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I think that's an unfortunate understanding of the situation, and contrary both to the longstanding policy of how the community works and the basic rudiments of fairness. If we're going to have civility, a collegial editing environment, and above all, consensus rule, then you can't have an environment where a self-selected group of busybodies (i.e., the ANI brigade) removing people from the project for any reason or no reason. Process is important. Fairness is important. Neither of these are present in the dystopian environment you describe. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 00:11, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::It's not contrary to '''''my''''' understanding of how the community works in the 12 years I've been here. In fact, it is '''''precisely''''' how the community works, and how it '''''should''''' work. We are not a community of lawyers, we are a community of '''''editors''''', and thank goodness for that. Mag. had more than sufficient due process, notification, service, whatever you want to call it, and was able to participate in the discussion '''''at every point along the way''''', with no restrictions. If Misplaced Pages ever becomes a place where hand-wringing about "process" and "fairness" is more important than writing an encyclopedia, we're dead in the water. That's why we have a little thing called ].{{parabr}}In the meantime, the folks below me are waiting for the information you said was pertinent at the current RFAR. Instead of responding to me again, why don't you provide them with a specific link to that case request that illustrates that "using catch-22 situations to remove 'the unwanteds' appears to have become ANI's trade", which is what you claimed? ] (]) 01:32, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Wow, bold ''and'' italics? I'm honored. 😂 Sadly, you're absolutely 100% dead wrong. We are a community that prides itself on process, procedure, and fair play. IAR is for situations where the documented processes and procedures would seem to deliver a preposterous, unfair, or outrageous result, and where no reasonable person would find the outcome of those processes to be correct. What's happening here is the typical ANI steamroller effect that is so well documented, so widely acknowledged, that it's become a sitewide joke. Process is unimportant, you claim? Why do we have CSD? Why do we have AfD? Why do we have AIV and the tiered warning levels? Why do we have ArbCom? One can effortlessly point to dozens of processes and procedures that exist and clearly contradict the alternative facts you're putting forth in this situation. But let that get in the way of ANI's purging of someone that ANI doesn't like? God help us all. The walls are going to collapse because fairness and process are holding up a hanging. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 01:49, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::(Don't flatter yourself, I use bold and italics all the time.) ''"We are a community that prides itself on process, procedure, and fair play."'' Nope. We are a community that prides itself on having built the best online encyclopedia in history. Everything else is entirely incidental. You, for instance, would do well to make some more contributions to the encyclopedia, and do less lawyerly argumentation, no matter how much you enjoy doing it: your 2:1 ratio of Mainspace to Misplaced Pages Space edits is pretty poor. ] (]) 22:38, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{U|Mendaliv}} {{!xt|"as has been noted at ArbCom recently, using catch-22 situations to remove "the unwanteds" appears to have become ANI's trade"}}{{citation needed}}. Diff please. —] (]) 10:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Read the current RfAR and the attached statements. And those are only the most recent examples of criticism of ANI's techniques found in statements by and before that body. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 11:41, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{U|Mendaliv}}, please help myself and others to follow by supplying an exact Permalink and quote/diff that is being referred to. —] (]) 18:11, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::]. Just read it. It's in multiple statements and the overall tenor of the discussion. I'm not playing the "diffs pls" game with you. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 00:12, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::{{U|Mendaliv}}, please help us out here. A name, or a date-stamp, or a particular phrase, or ''anything''… —] (]) 00:23, 25 October 2017 (UTC) <small>''(] does not appear to contain {{!xt|"Catch-22"}} or {{!xt|"Unwanted"}} or {{!xt|"Trade"}}).''</small> | |||
| ::::::::::<small>And my statement doesn't purport to be a direct quote of anything at ArbCom. As I said, I'm not playing the "difs pls xD" game. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 01:50, 25 October 2017 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::::::::::You're complaining because Magioladitis hasn't been given enough formal warnings about every proposed sanction in this discussion, and because not every proposed sanction had its own dedicated section with all formalities you consider necessary; but when you make some claim and people want some actual evidence for it, you can't be bothered and are not playing that game? Your double standards (and the similarities with the proposal for VE by Magioladitis and the total lack of evidence they produced, vs. the amount of evidence they requested of others) become more and more apparent. I guess that, if there would be a formal uninvolved close of this discussion, your attempts to obstruct this time and again would be dismissed out of hand. ] (]) 06:55, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Some claims don't need evidence. The well-known catastrophe that is ANI when it comes to complex disputes is one of those claims. Sladen tipped his hand with that last response, anyway; it's the old "give me a diff that has those exact words in it" dodge. Both of us know there's no diff with those exact words in it. That wasn't the point of my claim, and it's not my argument. If anything, the responses from Sladen, BMK, and yourself do much more to prove my claim than anything. Look for what appears to be leverage and blast away at it until the discussion has progressed far away enough from the claim that everyone has forgotten it. Well, I'm not doing that.{{parabr}}I reiterate my claim that it would have been unfair and infeasible to require Magioladitis to respond to every single alternative proposal that was even hinted at above, or risk any argument against those alternative proposals considered waived. It would have required a wall of text that you and I both know every single reader at ANI would skip over. That is unacceptable and it places Magioladitis at an unacceptable disadvantage when trying to protect himself from the mob rule that presides at ANI.{{parabr}}Actually, my learned colleague BMK's response above is far more telling than anything. He seems to argue that fairness does not matter, and that the community should simply be able to remove those individuals that it finds annoying, rather than those who clearly violate well-established norms of conduct. Misplaced Pages is not an anarchocapitalist society. Our encyclopedia-building community is founded on fairness, respect, civility, collegiality, and cooperation. Your own response, accusing another editor of being an obstructionist when he rises to the defense of another editor who, as here, so clearly cannot adequately defend himself, sums up everything that's wrong with ANI right now. It is shameful what ANI is attempting to do here, and that is why I so seriously want this case sent to the Committee, where it can be presided over with process and procedure.{{parabr}}So, no, I will not be providing diffs to prove what an absolute joke ANI is. If you have a problem with that, you are free not to respond further. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 08:34, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Umm, your claims were about a specific Arbcom request which was supposed to be evidence of your general opinion about ANI. That someone (well, multiple people) actually still reads your comments is evidence of the patience and AGF inherent in most editors here; that those people then find your arguments lacking, unconvincing, unsupported by what you claim supports them, is not something that "sums up everything that is wrong with ANI right now", it shows simply what is wrong with your comments here. Your "rising to the defense of another editor" doesn't grant you immunity from the basic rules of discussion or logic. ] (]) 11:37, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | {{hab}} | ||
| *'''Comment''' I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: ]. There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' Misplaced Pages has historically been terrible at automation restrictions: it seems unwilling to write them in a way that they won't either be gamed mercilessly (the long Betacommand saga) or else serve as the pretext for draconian enforcement against perfectly good, low-volume editing (Rich F's 1-year block). There were some proposals in the Betacommand 3 workshop that I liked, but none got passed. ] (]) 08:08, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:{{U|173.228.123.121}}, an editor requested ''template editor'' status. <small>(At ]: permalink ]—subsequently withdrawn after checking ])</small> . It is unclear how ''automation'' would be connected to that. —] (]) 11:23, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't understand the connection either. Template vandalism is a fairly new thing: it only appeared after we got paranoid about defending against a problem that we didn't have. I edited templates from my IP address all the time before that. I'd go ahead and grant TE to Magio on the theory that it can always be withdrawn if he messes up too much. As long as the volume is reasonable, template errors are mostly easy to revert, unlike when someone gets overenthusiastic with a bot. ] (]) 06:34, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) ] (]) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't think I agree, It would seem to be foolhardy to give to an editor about whom there have been numerous complaints concerning the accuracy of their work using bots an additional right which would enable them to be similarly inaccurate on templates which may be used in a large number of pages. Template errors may be easy to correct, but, unlike template vandalism, there's no guarantee that they're going to be noticed quickly, and while they exist, they can affect a large number of articles. I would not recommend giving M. template editor status at this time. ] (]) 16:09, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' This is editor is still creating dog poor articles ]. This is the second in days thats been speedied. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. ] ] 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Me (DragonofBatley) == | |||
| :::::I agree with BMK in not agreeing. The problem with M. is that pretty much ''all'' he does is gnomish tinkering that at regular intervals does more harm than good. And this, I believe, is to a large degree because he's disconnected from the actual experience of ''writing and editing content''{{snd}}it's why so often he can't understand why something he's done is pissing off everyday editors. I think he should serve some time ''not running bots'' and ''not tinkering with templates'', but just editing actual articles by hand. Then we'll see. ''']]''' 19:27, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think EEng's advice is excellent. ] (]) 19:37, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::] ''']]''' 20:28, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save {{Ping|KJP1}} the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. ] (]) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * ''']]''' 13:27, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Notifying other editors from the wider discussions {{Ping|PamD}}, {{Ping|Noswall59}}, {{Ping|Rupples}}, {{Ping|Crouch, Swale}}, {{Ping|KeithD}}, {{Ping|SchroCat}}, {{Ping|Tryptofish}}, {{Ping|Cremastra}} and {{Ping|Voice of Clam}}. If I missed anyone else sorry ] (]) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hehe. Ferris really annoys mofos. Oh yeahhhhhh. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 08:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : |
:Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: ]. ] ] 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of ], ], ] and now redirected ] and ]. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. ] (]) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. ] (]) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Also this discussion: ]. ] (]/]) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on. | |||
| :I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. ] is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, ''then'' we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions. | |||
| :I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to ] and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends. | |||
| :Happy editing, <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --] (]) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing ] (]) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@]: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? ] (]/]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? ] (]) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as ]. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. ] (]/]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? ] (]/]) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. ] (]) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. ] (]) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. ''']''' (]) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. ] (]) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::These are good points. | |||
| :::However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI''-like'' thing may be in order. ], anyone? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course ] is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? ] (]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. ] (]/]) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break ] and ]. ] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add ] (]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{ec}} The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think it's the latter. @]: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. ] (]/]) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. ] (]) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. ''']''' (]) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Yeah, I agree to that. @] if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to ] but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? ] (]) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::] is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in ]. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely ]. ''']''' (]) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC ] (]) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? ] ] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. ] (]) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? ] ] 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? ] (]/]) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@]: while you're taking a breather as @] suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? ] (]/]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::], ], ] (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example ] and ]. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for ] and the ]. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. ] (]) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? ] (]/]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near ]. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the ] commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings ] (]) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- ] (]) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *DragonofBatley has agreed to a ] to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? ] (]/]) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --] (]) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? ] (]) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. ] (]/]) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. ''']''' (]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. ] (]/]) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --] (]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- ] (]) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::{{outdent|0}} Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. ] (]/]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --] (]) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? ] (]/]) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *@]: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? ] (]/]) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for ]. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. ] (]) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see '''any''' new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. ] (]/]) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::{{ec}} {{u|KJP1}} has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - ] (]) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you ]. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. ] (]) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the ]erifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? ] (]/]) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{ec}} Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - ] (]) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. ] (]) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). {{u|KJP1}} provided a for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - ] (]) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they ''understand'' source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. ] ] 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::::That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements ''and'' that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - ] (]) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::That's a great point, you're right, @]. ] ] 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::::I responded to @] earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with ] ] and ]. Also conflict edit was not directed at @], there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. ] (]) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's ] was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from ] and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing. | |||
| *:::And also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. ]] 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}} | |||
| The issues are ] and source integrity; ]; and the suggestion of ] while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability. | |||
| Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, ], which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises ] issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC. | |||
| I'm not an admin, but my sense is that no consensus has been reached for any action beyond a ] against Magioladitis at this time. As a contributor, I hope both these users will have the sense to leave the other alone. I would also note that the ] offers a lot of opportunities to create content. ] (], ]) 01:10, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. ] (]) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == E.M.Gregory's behavior at AfDs....again. == | |||
| :At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --] (]) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. ] (]) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on ] quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on ]. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ] feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. ] (]) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It is less than 2 months since ] behaviour at AfD was brought up at ] | |||
| ::::And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in ], ] and ]. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. ] (]) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@]. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. ] (]) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@], the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. ] (]/]) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. ] (]) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @] or @]. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @] and @]'s earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. ] (]) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the ] and ] concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —] (]) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| :As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban. | |||
| Some people just can't help themselves, I guess. I just ], that in view of the above AN/I report, then having 19 comments on ] was a bit excessive. | |||
| :There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done. | |||
| Alas, that didn't help. Presently he has 21 comments on ]. I suggest the implementation of the following solution (which has been earlier suggested, but was not implemented): let EMG make !votes on AfDs, but forbid ''any'' follow-ups. ] (]) 20:24, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' he has edited ] about 70 times since the AfD started, and contributed to the article before the AfD as well. ] (], ]) 20:25, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*Yes {{u|power~enwiki}} that is true but several editors at the AFD discussion told Gregory his recent additions are highly misleading and grossly inaccurate. Note also another ] following the first ANI thread where Gregory excessively commented. Personally, I am more concerned about his ] issues with sourcing but the AFD behavior is problematic and ongoing as well.] (]) 20:33, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*'''Note''' that since starting this discussion, TheGracefulSlick has racked up 20 edits at yet another terrorism-related AfD ]; yet another ]y AfD she started.] (]) 13:52, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Note that on ] brought up by TheGracefulSlick, Gregory made 15 edits to TheGracefulSlick's 21 (including some repititions of arguements by TheGracefulSlick). Gregory actually added sources to the article, added text, and demonstrated SIGCOV on the AFD discussion.] (]) 20:42, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Yesterday Huldra came to my talk page to threaten to start this discussion. We have met from time to time, most recently, as far as I can recall, at a perfectly ghastly AfD, ]. '''Here''' is the response I made on my talk page yesterday: I have participated in a couple of dozen AfD discussions today alone, searching, bringing sources to the discussion, sourcing poorly sourced pages. I have no idea of how many AfD discussions I take part in in a typical month, but it's a lot. I do know that I spend more time on these discussions than many editors do; I invest time and effort into seeking out sources to make fair assessments on a range of topics. ] is an unusual AfD; notice that the Nom has made 14 comments, as has an editor named Pincrete who wants to delete this terrorist attack. And also note that I have made 99 edits to the page ]. I don't just opine; I expand and source the articles I find at AfD. Many pages where I make multiple edits are collaborative efforts; recent examples: ], ], ] and ]. But, yes, as with ] I do tend to double back and make multiple comments as I find time to revisit specific AfDs and search for sources, or as some aspect of a recent AfD that bears looking into occurs to me. I believe that my work at AfD will hold up to scrutiny, but it will never satisfy you because you and I differ on the question of whether ideologically motivated attacks on civilians (terrorism) is notable.] (]) 20:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*{{u|E.M.Gregory}} yes I have commented 14 times but if we could mutually agree to step away from the AFD. Ironically, you replied simply with "]" and preceded to bludgeon the discussion.] (]) 20:44, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::*At the point when you made that suggestion, I had responded to your latest reiterated assertion that "there was no in-depth analysis" of the ] by bringing a list of 7 WP:INDEPTH articles from major international media. My earlier comments had included discussions of academic articles discussing this attack, two requests that your restore someone's '''keep''' iVote that you had deleted, and, swhen you ignored that, restoration of the '''keep''' iVote that you had deleted. The reason that I did not agree, however, was that I did not wish to endorse the wording of your "request" which was, ''"You give wall of text a new meaning E.M.Gregory. Can others be allowed to comment here without you trying to mislead them? You have already inserted your inaccuracies into the "article" (a fringe piece at this point) and I think the AFD should be spared these long lists and replies."'' I do not think that adding a list of INDEPTH articles is the equivalent of the comments you made on the page, accusations that I was "manipulating the sources," and, as I was sourcing and expanding the article, teh assertion that, "Even now, with the recent "expansion" (as it will soon be claimed) by Gregory, the article has been bombarded by fragmented quotes and half-truths to create the illusion of ongoing coverage. Gregory has even attempted to frame this as a terror attack despite no evidence in reliable sources. Shameful and shady." I do realize that you are attempting to make me lose my cool, and that you and Huldra are attempting to vote me off the island because I think many low-casualty terrorist attacks are notable and you disagree.] (]) 21:16, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*You make it sounds as a conspiracy. Just for the record, I have no knowledge of work of TheGracefulSlick, nor for that matter, of Pincrete. E.M.Gregory: ok, just my 2 cents: if several editors find your work troublesome, it might, just ''might'' be because, eh, it ''is'' troublesome? And ''not'' because there is a vast conspiracy against you...] (]) 22:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::* Pincrete and Drmies have also noted the inaccuracies and misuse of sources so I am not the only one . "I do realize that you are attempting to make me lose my cool, and that you and Huldra are attempting to vote me off the island" is a clear sign that you think this is some sort of of ] and I would ask you to retract such a baseless statement but I doubt you will. Window dressing the article is not helpful, especially when your additions to do not reflect upon the very sources you use. I apologize but I consider that a serious matter and I -- and others -- had to call you out on it several times.] (]) 21:56, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* Courtesy ping for {{u|Pincrete}} since his actions are being scrutinized by Gregory with being informed.] (]) 21:56, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *The above, like the AfD, is tl;dr. That's a heated AfD, as all AfDs on this general subject matter tend to be, and I don't think it's fair to single out EM Gregory when the atmosphere in general has been as heated as it has been. Trying to load it all on EMG seems a bit disingenuous. ] (]) 21:19, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::EMG's misrepresentation of sources on and during AfD's is commonly SO extensive, that if I did not credit EMG with more intelligence, I would have to question his ]. This is an enormous time-waster and I disagree with Coretheapple to the extent that personally I don't care tuppence whether these articles survive or not, but I do care, that discussions are 'poisoned' by misleading or false information being presented, to skew discussion. EMG behaviour IMO is a very long way from his claim above to be "improving sources". I was unaware of this ANI, and thus unprepared, however I will attempt to put together some diffs in the next 48hrs to illustrate. ] (]) 22:23, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::This is a content dispute. I went there to !vote (having read about it here, as I have not edited that article) and I was immediately subjected to polite but intense badgering. Let's close this out. ] (]) 22:52, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, this has turned into a ] issue. Misleading a discussion with false information is a serious charge and I am interested in the evidence Pincrete will surely provide within the timeframe he noted. Closing this out prematurely would only encourage the behavior.] (]) 22:58, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Please could you explain what part of that ''essay'' opinion-piece is relevant with regard to User:E.M.Gregory ? ] (]) 23:11, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Certainly {{u|MPS1992}}. Gregory has demonstrated he either does not have the competency to represent sources in an accurate way or he is purposefully adding false information to, as Pincrete says, skew discussions. One can only hope it is not the latter because that would be significantly ''worse'' than an editor who perhaps does not understand why including their own flair to content is a problem.] (]) 23:30, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I see. Well, the essay ] that you mention, discusses competency issues that would render an editor incapable of contributing constructively. If an editor with proven ability to use the English language and proven ability in rational argument -- evidenced for example by "winning" many of these AfD disputes in which he seems to engage -- merely had a little difficulty in accurately representing sources, then there would still be reasonable hope that he could be taught how to do so. (For example by explaining to them that adding "their own flair to content" is a problem.) Therefore the essay would not apply. If someone is repeatedly misrepresenting sources then we don't need to start discussing opinion-piece essays about competence, we instead need to discuss whether steps need to be taken to prevent damage to the encyclopedia. ] (]) 23:58, 19 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::And I certainly agree. This is not a secluded incident where Gregory mistakenly misinterpreted some sources. For months, Pincrete has had the thankless job of cleaning up articles Gregory has grossly misrepresented -- and I highly commend Pincrete for remaining diligent. That is why, and I think you will agree, we need to stay tuned until Pincrete gathers all the diffs illustrating this behavior. The community will need to discuss serious preventive measures to protect the encyclopedia from any more damage.] (]) 00:17, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::<small>By chance, I will have little time/internet acces over next two days. I will attempt to put together diffs, but cannot guarantee to do so, ] (]) 08:36, 20 October 2017 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::::::::That's an absurd argument, ]. Since "no consensus" defaults to keep, one can keep a shitty article and "win" by creating enough smoke to prevent a consensus from developing. Not from being competent in accurately representing what one's sources say. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 02:34, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::If you're suggesting that a "smokescreen" approach has been deliberately adopted and repeatedly successful, that actually supports the point being made. Regardless, decisions here need to be made based on policy, not by making vague gestures to an essay that discusses an entirely different issue. ] (]) 08:16, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Misrepresentation of sources either deliberately or by editor incompetence falls under ]. The information (it is claimed) Gregory is providing is not verifiable. For continually (either deliberately or through incompetence) violating a core policy its perfectly reasonable to restrict an editor from doing so. (edited to point out I have not actually vetted Gregory's contributions) ] (]) 08:27, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::: Gregory is not (at least usually per my impression) misrepresenting sources. Other editors in this discussion do however ignore or try to disregard sources who treat the subject matter (i.e. a classification of terror) in a viewpoint that does not agree with them - and not on marginal sources - on good strong RS. They also, instead of relying of SIGCOV to determine notability (assessing amount of sources, strength, persistence, diversity, etc.), tend to apply personal value judgement - e.g. by claiming events are "run of the mill" ROUTINE.] (]) 09:59, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::I am not omniscient, but my conversations with User:Pincrete at ], and ] do, I think, show good faith on my part and the difficulty of working with User:Pincrete who often makes assertions without having read the material under discussion and without having knowledge of the topic. In the case of the 2014 Dijon attacker, he omitted the lede sentence of the segment of an academic article that we had come to the talk page to discuss: ''""In many other cases, when confirmed diagnosis were present, there was a tendency to try to dismiss the possibility of terrorism altogether. For example, on December 21, 2014, an unarmed 40-year-old ran over...."'', then argued that there was nothing in the academic article beyond a mere rehearsal of news reports, a disingenuous way of failing to acknowledge the point about the mental illness/terroism nexus issue by these two scholars of terrorism. It then got worse. Pincrete made a number of that are not specific to the French legal standards of insanity; fail to acknowledge that legal standards vary across borders; and conflate the status of this patient with the assertion that "beyond a certain point, the mentally ill are not legally culpable." He then continues by accusing the scholars who wrote the article and me of "seeking to imply is that they/you know more about the threshold of criminal culpability than medical experts who actually examined the individual." This, of course, goes beyond what the authors of the article I was citing, or I actually said, but, more importantly, it reveals Pincrete's ignorance of the fact that it is not the medical experts who decide whether to investigate a case as terrorism. 1.) This, and not the mental status of the attacker, is what is under discussion, and, 2.) under French law whether to investigate as terrorism or not is the decision of the public prosecutor, not the examining psychiatrists. (see:] for sources on this. ] (]) 12:17, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :In the last ANI there was no consensus that Gregory comments on AFD are excessive, nothing has changed so I don't understand why bring this issue again and waste everyone time.--] (]) 16:59, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::Shrike, that isn't the whole story. At the last ANI, one of the conclusions was that "The editor in question has acknowledged the valid concerns raised against his AfD participation, and has agreed to keep his commenting in the future "strictly on point". When I started this ANI, Gregory had made 21 comments to ], presently he has made 25!! '''He simply cannot stop himself'''. Oh, and many of this comments have been, frankly, completely useless, like pointing to ''essays'' like ]. ] (]) 20:35, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above. | |||
| :::::::::::::::EMG, I made a single error on a fairly minor detail IRO the 'Malmo' source, when it was pointed out to me ''(by you)'', I immediately apologised to you. Your ''many'' factually incorrect and largely SYNTHed claims about that source ], you continued on an to defend ALL those factually incorrect claims. NO 'new' eyes ]. | |||
| :For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, <b>this needs to be a final warning</b> in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -] (]) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::Regarding the 'Dijon' "was it insanity or terrorism" argument, I think it reasonable to ask of any 'academics' that before they advance an opinion on this subject ''(and I am not persuaded that they DO advance any opinion, rather than YOU selectively quoting an "implied opinion" about this based on half a sentence)'' that they should have actually inspected the medical records of the accused person and have some knowledge of psychiatry - neither of which is true AFAIK. | |||
| ::Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? ] (]/]) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —] (]) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| (I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at ].) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, ]. {{U|PamD}} stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular {{U|Crouch, Swale}}. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point ] has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.) | |||
| :::::::::::::::Implying that Fr authorities, for political reasons, designated someone as 'criminally insane' and therefore not culpable for a terrorist offence is an extraordinary claim, it needs more than a single ambiguous half sentence to support it. You actively prefer 'headline-y' half sentences that imply much but fall to pieces as soon as one asks what they actually mean. I prefer clear, RS'd neutrally phrased facts. I'm not 'on a mission' to 'nail' every instance which could possibly have an 'Islamist terrorist' element, AFAI can see that is your sole purpose on these articles and in these AfD's. ] (]) 17:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: '] is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with : he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here. | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::Let's go back to to that ]. Soon after I created the article in July 2017, it was taken to AfD ] where I presume you found it. It looked like this when you arrived: . Whether you failed to read the sources or thought that the ] was lying, you reacted by deleting terrorism related categories from the page . It was not a long page; the basic plot was that there was an arson fire at a Shia community center, a suspect was identified, tried and adjudicated not guilty. About a month after the trial concluded, the German police arrested a dude who was editing ]'s ] website from Germany. I read the most astonishing story in the ], describing how this ISIS editor was actually fomenting terrorist attacks; and the Malmo arson attack on the Shia mosque/community center was described in great detail. I wrote a BASIC aritcle. You began deleting swaths of solidly-sourced material. Removed the descriptor "Shia" with edit summary "the relevance of this is not established." Removed terrorism categories again , this time with edit summary "Which bit of "the accused was acquitted of all charges at trial and the fire was deemed not to be terrorism-related" is difficult to understand?). I replaced them with edit summary "Undid revision 790082120 by Pincrete (talk) the part where the German police verify that this was an ISIS attack. You are verging on WP:DISRUPT]" You removed a sentence reading: " however, the subsequent arrest of an ] operative in Germany demonstrated that the attack was directed by the ]." with edit summary: "Report me .... BLP trumps anything and the source does not say this ... moving other quote". And so it went. I can only assume that you failed to read teh sources on which the article was based. Certainly, it was irresponsible, disruptive edit warring. And it all took place during a July 2017 AfD ] where you made 17 comments and I made 7. ('''Note''' that the July AfD was started by new ].) You made a series of similarly disruptive edits during the August 2017 AfD started by TheGraceful Slick ], where Slick and I each made 12 edits. Both AfDs closed as '''Keep'''.] (]) 19:04, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content calling it "irrelevant". At ], PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article ], , cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, ], the entire Architecture section was . However, their church articles always contain something like {{tq|The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.}} sourced to ''achurchnearyou.com'', often as a separate "Present day" section. of ] (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: {{tq|All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.}} (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing ] and ], both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::::::::Whoa. ]. Editors who want the short course should skip the above and just read this AfD. It demonstrates the extent to which TheGracefulSlick and her sidekick Pincrete are so cocksure of their righteousness that they edit aggressively, but without encountering the sources they dismiss, delete, and mis-cite.] (]) 19:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as , was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.) | |||
| :::::::::::::::::::::::I think you need to calm down and remind yourself to remain ]. At this rate, we won't even need Pincrete's diffs to demonstrate your disruptive behavior.] (]) 20:19, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles. | |||
| {{od}}I would suggest that this entire discussion is an ideologically-tainted ] mess. One editor creates articles that raise the hackles of another editor or group of editors who seek to delete them. Rinse, repeat. Happens over and over again. The combatants come here, slug it out. Enough. ] (]) 21:27, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note {{U|Liz}} has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that ] instance (at the end of , which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. ] (]) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Just for the record, I created only few of the many articles on terror attacks that ], and ], (together with ] who has moved on to editing other topics) have recently sought to delete in recent months. The articles these editors have tried to delete were created by many different editors over many years.] (]) 10:28, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :EMG, I don't intend to reply in detail about Malmo, relevant discussion is ] and at ]. However which bit of "German police have accused" entitles you here, in the article and at AfD to turn that into a "guilty verdict"? I believe I am correct when I say that German police did not even accuse the 'German' person of 'directing' any attack, they simply accuse of 'contacting' perp and reporting to Amaq. It is not up to German police, nor the NYT, nor you or me to decide guilt of a person in Sweden, and certainly not to expand an accusation of 'contacting and reporting' on behalf of Amaq, into one of 'directing by Isis'. The Swedish court's reasons, ''(if I remember correctly)'' for NOT charging with 'terrorist' offences were because under Swedish law, the incident was too trivial to be treated as 'terrorism', so the accused was tried for arson, and found not guilty. He was also, I believe ordered to be deported. So, even if the court had known about the German arrest, they would still probably have tried for arson, since they would still probably think the incident too trivial under their law. In spite of this you claimed repeatedly in the AfD that a new trial was going to happen in Sweden, a source was asked for, but never provided. Innumerable similar claims about the significance of the 'new German' arrest are in your imagination only. The NYT and other articles make no bigger claims than that the German arrest ''might'' provide clues as to how Amaq ''sometimes'' gets its info. The trial in Germany ''might'' uncover many things, but we wait for that to happen not write up the speculations of individual editors as fact. ] (]) 21:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::''Sorry few diffs.'' Mainly for time reasons, despite me 'promising' them above. Besides I don't think anyone has any appetite for them and they mainly relate to the ] and ]. I stand by every assertion I have made here about the misrepresentation of sources in that article and at that AfD. Whatever EMG's motives may have been, the effect was to create a huge smokescreen of misinformation during that AfD, but that whole subject is now 'water under the bridge'. Specific diffs will be provided by me to back up any assertion above if requested. | |||
| :All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. ] (]/]) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'd like to point to ]: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. ] (]) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly). | |||
| ::I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at ] and ], and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: ]. | |||
| ::I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing. | |||
| ::Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for ], which is also the example of a lead in ], starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{tl|cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice. | |||
| ::Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor. | |||
| ::The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, ] (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material). | |||
| ::It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations. | |||
| ::Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. ]] 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --] (]) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work === | |||
| ::However, since EMG is still criticising my contribution on that article, and that AfD, ] could earn himself a moral victory ''(and an apology from me)'' if he could point me to where in there is reference to'' "However, new evidence showing that he had committed the attack on behalf of ISIS caused the acquitted man to be arrested and charged anew in late June 2017" ''text which he inserted in the article , and which he repeated ''(as I recall)'' 3 times in the AfD discussion, to emphasise the 'ongoing significance' of the Malmo event. I can see no mention in the source of a Swedish re-arrest nor re-trial and the ''charging'' of a man in Germany with 'working on behalf of the ISIS news agency',<small>by contacting the Swedish accused</small> cannot be turned into "showing he had committed the attack on behalf of ISIS" without bucketloads of SYNTH and without completely ignoring BLP <small>''(even Islamists get a trial, last time I checked!)''</small> I've been asking for the source for the 'Swedish re-arrest and retrial' since the Malmo AfD, AFAIK the Swedish man is, and has <s>always</s> since his trial been, scheduled for deportation. I don't need 1000-word essays, simply where the source supports any of these assertions. | |||
| I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. ] (]/]) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've got some experience of ] investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. ] (]) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::EMG, as I said above ''I made a single error on a fairly minor detail IRO the 'Malmo' source, when it was pointed out to me, I immediately apologised to you … you continue to defend ALL these factually incorrect claims,'' and are happy to use them as arguments at AfD ''(and here)'', to "get off the hook". Earn yourself an apology from me, and if you can't please stop repeating that I failed in some sense to correctly read the Malmo source, I'm tired of reading it, and one day soon others are going to get tired also. ] (]) 12:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am an interested editor. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::*The first trial, the one where he was acquitted in April/May 2017, got a lot of coverage, I have just added material form 2 English sources showing that when he was acquitted he was immediately transferred to custody of ] so that they could start a new set of legal procedures (may be a "hearing", not a "trial" - most sources are in Swedish and I am not a Swedish barrister) to deport him. I'm unclear why you state that he was in Sweden illegally; he seems pretty clearly to have been a legal resident. What the New YOrk Tiems article states is: ''"The statement from the prosecutor explains that Mohammad G. had been communicating via social media with a man who went on to carry out a 2016 arson in Sweden."'''.] (]) 13:14, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --] (]) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::EMG, precisely as I have always claimed, no trial. No relationship claimed by source between the Swedish re-arrest ''(for deportation)'' and the German arrest, the Swedish deportation is going to be decided by its 'Migration Agency'. I didn't mention anyone's presence in Sweden being illegal ''(he was asylum-seeker I believe)''. | |||
| ::::I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. ]] 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/] in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --] (]) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —] (]) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC). | |||
| ::::::::To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @] has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. ] (]) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the ]. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. ] (]) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks ] (]) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::::About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? ]] 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::::::Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there ] (]) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}} | |||
| {{U|voorts}} - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. ] (]) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. ''Sound of evil laughter.'') --] (]) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :How's this draft proposal: {{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace<ins>, converting redirects to articles,</ins> or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects. | |||
| ::Having seen on ] yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing. | |||
| ::And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. ]] 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. ] (]/]) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. ] (]) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - ] (]) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: an infobox? a few words about local authority area? a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. ]] 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to ], never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. ]] 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thanks for the question ]. To clarify, I meant '''any''' expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing ''anywhere'' on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - ] (]) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " ]] 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --] (]) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Okay, looks good. @] what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::{{U|Cremastra}} - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. ] (]) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Hold on. This goes much further than @] wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? ] (]) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at ]. I've lost patience. ]] 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested: | |||
| :::::::::::::# No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects | |||
| :::::::::::::# No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?) | |||
| :::::::::::::# No editing in mainspace. | |||
| :::::::::::::]] 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.{{pb}}{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):{{pb}} | |||
| ::'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC. | |||
| ::'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded. | |||
| ::'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles. | |||
| :{{pb}}The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but '''would personally favour Option B'''. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into ], a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. ] (]) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@]: I made some changes. ] (]/]) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. ] (]) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::p.s. ] this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. ] (]) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? ] (]) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. ] (]) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I agree. ] (]) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::@] and @]: option C amended below. ] (]/]) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? ]] 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. ] (]/]) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s) === | |||
| :::::If I really believed you could not understand why ''accusations'' of "communicating on social media" with someone in order to feed back info to Amaq, was synonomous with "directing the same someone on behalf of Isis" ......! No apology for you then. <small>I've long since abandoned any hope of ever receiving one myself.</small> ] (]) 15:00, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s): | |||
| :The organized deletion of information on terrorist attacks is now so bad that editors are being muzzled and threatened just for trying to stop the afd wikicide against coverage of obvious terrorist attacks. I've been threatened just for complaining about whitewashing of terrorism and advocating that any terrorist attack is notable and non-routine and rules for notnews and routine need to be revised to stop disruptive prods and afds ] (]) 13:17, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::If an administrator were to grow a pair of gonads, enforce policy, and muzzle you, I would hold a parade in her or his honor. Sadly, it will never happen. — ] <sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 03:24, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Agreed. I tried bringing Bachcell's behavior to the community's attention (again) {{u|Malik Shabazz}} but apparently the new diffs and months of others from the prior thread is "not actionable" so I closed it before I could somehow be landed with a block. I'm afraid Gregory's behavior is just going to be left unnoticed as well.] (]) 04:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*Indeed, it does seem possible that repeatedly dragging editors who disagree with you to ANI could land GracefulSlick or other editors with a block. Some editors might think that such behavior was ] for ]y reasons.] (]) 13:47, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Double agree with MS and TGS, if something is an "obvious terrorist attacks", why do editors have such difficulty finding sources that say that? Actually this is an area of WP where editors regularly ignore BLP, PoV and V with impunity, frequently imagining that poor coverage of terrorist articles is somehow magically going to do something to stop these incidents. It ain't I'm afraid. ] (]) 09:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' just pointing out that this seems to be a recurring topic at ANI that the community is unable to solve, and one that I suspect will be back here again if this ANI closes without any resolution. If this is the case, the likely next step would be ArbCom, which also has the benefit of having a structured format. I'd suggest to all editors involved that it might be best to come to some sort of agreement on a mutually amicable way to settle this, otherwise I see this headed to a case request sometime in the future. ] (]) 14:01, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ** It further points to the rising conflict that I've been trying to resolve in P&G between ] and articles rushed to creation on current events, which unfortunately the community seems very divided on, making any type of movement to resolve it (either direction) impossible, include clarification of supposed practice into policy & guidelines. That itself is slowly building to a head (this above issue just one extension of it) and it's going to get worse before it gets better. --] (]) 14:05, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***I've been involved in several non-news related AfDs where the same behavioral concerns occurred. I hate ANI worse than I hate contentious AfDs, so I've never brought them here, but I think there is likely merit on the bludgeoning issue with this complaint that is unrelated to the NOTNEWS issue. I'm not familiar enough with what has transpired since the last ANI to give any thoughts as to an ANI resolution, but I would encourage E.M. Gregory to limit themselves to the minimum necessary comments at an AfD to get their point across. Short of that, unless this ANI closes with a specific resolution (which I don't think will happen), this is headed for an ArbCom case, which is even less fun than ANI. ] (]) 14:16, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::*TonyBallioni and I clashed at ], and ], on the question of when a Christian newspaper or book is primary if used to source Christianity-related article.] (]) 15:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*I'd actually consider it to be more about when local sources count towards the GNG, but thats a side issue. I didn't try to have you sanctioned either time, and nor do I seek it now because I really don't like the idea of restricting the ability of someone to comment in a discussion. My comment here was simply noting that this is an issue that several editors have brought up, and since we're getting specific, has been discussed at ANI ] ] ] ] ].{{pb}}Yes, I'm aware of the issue of the sock and that you've never been sanctioned in this regard, but especially after the last ANI closed {{tq|There is consensus on the editing behaviour of E.M.Gregory in AfD discussions being very concerning, in particular the inability to keep arguments "concise". }}, I think you would be wise to follow that advice. A long trend of ANIs that close as no consensus or no action but advice to do avoid doing something is, IMO, the definition of an issue the community is unable to solve, and that is the purpose of ArbCom. I'll repeat again that there is no attempt by me to get a sanction or weigh in on the situation since August, but simply to urge everyone here to find some amicable solution, because the next time an issue is raised, I suspect it will be as a case request. ] (]) 15:33, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC. | |||
| === Proposal === | |||
| :'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to oppose a PROD. | |||
| I do not want to see this go to Arbcom -- too much work for the same result. I propose what was actually a remedy from another ANI thread. From the previous discussion, {{tq|There is consensus on the editing behaviour of E.M.Gregory in AfD discussions being very concerning, in particular the inability to keep arguments "concise"}}. Despite his promise to address this concern, Gregory has either unknowingly or willfully continued to engage in this behavior. And, considering how he has reacted towards others at AFD and here, treats this as a ]. He should be '''limited to three comments per AFD''' for '''six months''' and can appeal the restriction after that time. The three comments allow him to !vote, respond to a critique of his !vote, and/or reply to another editor's !vote but it is up to him on how he will distribute his opportunities. | |||
| :'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except: (1) to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded; (2) to comment in AfD discussions or to oppose PRODs or CSDs regarding those articles; or (3) to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles. | |||
| :Unfortunately, this does not address his intentional misrepresentation of sources. To me, that should result in a topic ban on terrorism-related articles but I will not propose that at this time. Anyone else may do so if they find it appropriate.] (]) 16:19, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::User E.M.Gregory stands accused, repeatedly, on this thread, of misrepresentation of sources, yet no diffs are provided. I am of the opinion someone should look into the behaviour of his accusers. Cheers to all, ] (]) 05:29, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Diffs have been provided. If you know anything wrongly done by me, you are welcome to bring it to the attention of ANI.] (]) 16:24, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Note''' that ] is a highly unreliable editor on the topic of terrorism. She was deliberately misleading in her AfD nominaiton of ] (a discussion she BLUDGEONed with 20 comments). In her nomination for deletion TheGraceful Slick states: " This incident was in the news, mostly regional, for about four days because it was called suspected terrorism. However, it appears to have been a ." ." This Nominating statement was posted on 18 October, and the linked article dated 6 October was from the first round of news coverage. However, by 8 October the AP was reporting that "Israel’s domestic security agency says it has arrested two Palestinians suspected of killing an Israeli man found dead last week, in what it says was a 'terror attack.' " , and reports asserting that it was a "monetary dispute" has ceased. This is disingenuous BATTLEGROUND editing.] (]) 11:46, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*Probably not a good idea to accuse me of being disingenuous when it has already been proven you deliberately misrepresented sources on seperate occasions even as experienced editors pointed it out to you several times. I read a source for what it literally said. Perhaps if I did not have to depend on unreliable news sources, such a mistake would not occur.] (]) 18:29, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::* Err ... perhaps if the news sources are unreliable, you should consider not depending on them? ] 08:03, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::*{{u|Ravenswing}} you missed the point. It was ] coverage and it all tends to be unreliable. It is not something I prefer to do but when the subject is not covered by anything else, I do not have much choice. That was one of the points I made at the AFD; I do not want to re-open that discussion here.] (]) 14:57, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* I didn't "miss the point" at all; I made the point I wanted to make. As far as not having much choice, of course you have a choice: no one compelled you to make any edits with unreliable sources. We are not in a race here, this isn't a contest, and Misplaced Pages doesn't hand out any prizes for being first out of the blocks with an edit. We can always (and ''should'' always) wait for events to be reported in reliable sources before making edits on breaking events. ] 04:03, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*{{u|Ravenswing}} you do realize I never edited an article with an unreliable source, correct? I was not "first out of the blocks" with an edit because I never touched the article and I never do touch an article on a breaking news event. I wait a few weeks before I even consider doing that. So, I apologize, but I think you did miss ''some'' of the point if you thought I was editing with unreliable sources when, in fact, I wasn't editing at all on the page in question.] (]) 05:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *''Oppose any action'' This nomination seems to be driven by a desire to force editors to stop participating in discussions about deleting certain articles. We need more detachment in AfD, and less people trying to hound a particular point. However this will not be brought about by hounding people you disagree with, but by showing some civility, and speaking kind words to those you disagree with, as well as trying to understand their point of view.] (]) 04:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*Thank you, Johnpacklambert. I see this whole discussion as ]y. The complaint is that I make too many edits. But discussions in which editors make multiple comments are not at all unusual: ]. Long discussions can end productively and with collegiality: ]. However, ] has brought our difference of opinion over the interpretation of ] to this board in a ] effort to "win" the AfDs she constantly starts on terrorist attacks.] (]) 11:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::*{{u|Johnpacklambert}} notice how my proposal never mentioned forcing anyone out of discussing. For months Gregory has hounded editors he has disagreed with at AFD, commenting over and over to provoke a response. The problem has never been "understanding" Gregory's POV -- he has made it abundantly clear.] (]) 16:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::*That is highly creative inversion. I ranan editor interaction analyzer, and it clearly shows that I look regularly at the list of terrorism-related articles for deletino, and edit most of them, including the ones that TheGracefulSlick starts. It also shows that TheGracefulSlick goes through lists of terrorism related articles, so that while the analyzer may show that she edited ] or ], the fact is that these are articles that I created I began editing years ago. I am not accusing her of hounding me, only of having a different interpretation of notability and combing through old articles that I started or edited while searching terrorism articles to delete. Then, because so few of them are deleted, of dragging me here. This discussion really should be closed as POV/BATTLEGROUND aggression by TheGracefulSlick, and a handful of editors who share her BATTLEGROUND style and POV.] (]) 18:57, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::*You do realize I didn't open this thread? {{u|Huldra}} did. How could I have been the one who "dragged" you here? And I don't "comb" through articles that you edit. I look at the ''several'' lists devoted to terror attacks. You just so happen to edit them but I couldn't care less if you did or didn't touch them. You are just throwing mud and hoping something sticks. It's getting old.] (]) 19:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * Editor Pincrete which prove misrepresentation of sources by EM Gregrory. I don't see any on this thread. I think unfair accusations of misrepresentation of sources should be looked into. ] (]) 14:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I wonder if a hard cap on EMG's participation at AFD is what is called for: Say a limit of 250 words for a main argument and no more than two responses of 50 words or fewer per deletion nomination. It seems that "wall of text" and badgering seem to be the main complaints voiced. ] (]) 16:42, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*{{u|Carrite}} great condition to add to the proposal. But unless I am directly mentioned or pinged, I will step away from the discussion. I think it would be better for uninvolved editors like you to deliberate on the nature of a hard cap of some sort.] (]) 19:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::*I stand corrected. You dragged me here in August, Huldra dragged me back here.] (]) 19:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ==== Uninvolved editors ==== | |||
| ===Proposal 2=== | |||
| * '''Oppose all'''. I would have voted '''Option B''', but the user demonstated enough maturity and self-criticism, meaning he's willing to improve his long-term contribution. Moreover, even if it could have been embarrassing to admit, he also cared enough to inform us he's on the ], and as a ] myself, I know that's hard. My two cents go to {{u|DragonofBatley}}. You're welcome! ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Proposal''': Could we maybe allow DoB to continue editing mainspace if, and only if, any additions/edits they make are supported by a reference, to which the quote that supports the edit must be added. That will make it easier for us to double check their work and allow DoB to refine their skills in supporting their edits.] (]) 10:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''{{u|E.M.Gegory}} is hereby limited to 250 words for any nomination or initial comment relating to a nomination for deletion at AfD. In addition, E.M Gregory is limited to no more than two follow up comments to any nomination, with these follow up comments each not to exceed 50 words. This restriction to remain in effect for 12 months from the date of implementation of this sanction.''' — (This hopefully fixes the problem without robbing AfD of EMG's valuable participation.) ] (]) 19:30, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Carrite has urged that low-casualty terrorist attacks be merged to lists or deleted: , , . I found these by checking our editor interactions =, which were always civil and on a very wide range of articles; what I did not find was that we had interacted at terrorism related discussions where he had iVoted to keep.] (]) 13:36, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''', 1st choice. If you cannot express your opinion in a vote, plus two follow up comments, then you are suffering from what we in my country call "mouth diarrhoea". Enough. ] (]) 20:09, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*To see the essentially BATTLEGROUND nature of Huldra's attitude at AfD, consider the tone of her nominations: ], ], ], ], ].] (]) 22:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: AfD shouldn't be a battleground, I think we all can agree. This remedy should allow you enough space to weigh in while putting up a first barrier to the sort of dysfunctional back-and-forth that can sometimes result when people get worked up over controversial topics. Other people might need to be reined in at the same time, I can't speak to that. ] (]) 03:49, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ==== Involved editors ==== | |||
| ::*If you think my edits are problematic, feel free to open a new AN/I proposal about them. We are here because of ''your'' extreme "word diarrhoea" resulting, e.g., in 25 comments (!) on ]. As I said above: Enough. ] (]) 23:07, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{ping|KJP1|Cremastra|Rupples|PamD|DragonofBatley|Crouch, Swale|SchroCat|Tryptofish|Noswall59|p=.}} (Apologies if I missed anyone.) ] (]/]) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{small|Perhaps you might consider the term "Verbal Diarrhoea", or perhaps "Word Vomit". "Mouth Diarrhoea" summons a unpleasant messy image to mind. ] (]) 01:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| *'''Support''' option A as proposed for 6 months. I think its quite clear that that is needed given as noted the burden this might have on AFC but I'm willing to consider allowing some AFC say 1 article a week but I think it might be better to wait until the cleanup has been done the they have demonstrated the ability to create suitable articles. I would say it would be fine for DragonofBatley to ask KJP1 or Cremastra or another experienced user (if they explain their restrictions) to move drafts they have created to mainspace but I would not suggest they do that until the cleanup has been completed. I would also '''support''' option B I would consider allowing an appeal of only 2 or 3 months as this restriction is much more restrictive but I think given as noted by PamD their problems with editing existing articles this might well be helpful especially since if they can't create new articles I'd expect a shift towards the problems with existing articles. '''Oppose''' option C as (1) I'm not aware of problems outside mainspace and (2) I think in any case this would be too restrictive at least for 6 months, if C is done I'd at least support allowing appeal after 2 or 3 months. So in summary I think option B plus 1 article through AFC every week or every other week would be the best option but I don't have a strong opinion. ''']''' (]) 19:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - I forgot to mention this. And considering Gregory's battleground mentality and general dishonesty at AFDs, here, and elsewhere, he is getting off ''extremely'' light; unfortunately, this will probably not change his attitude. He has put editors he disagrees with or doesn't like in a ] and claims they are all coordinating a POV-pushing effort. If so, Pincrete, K.e.coffman, AusLondoner, Kingsidian, Huldra, Sport and Politics, Malik Shabazz, Nishidiani, and me -- literally everyone he argues with -- needs to be brought here and tbanned. Here is something to contemplate: if I pinged these editors (and more) they could all share an account where Gregory disrupted a discussion, pushed a POV, and/or misrepresented sources. Are they all part of the conspiracy? Or is it just a case of an editor who ] and blamed everyone else?] (]) 04:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose all''', as written. Sorry, this has changed from what I could support. First, in the draft version that I suggested, I had the word "successfully" in the sentence that mentions KJP1 and Cremastra: "only if DragonofBatley successfully participates...". That's important. The coordinators will need to evaluate whether or not he "got the message", not just whether he made some token effort, and their evaluation needs to have a meaningful role in the consideration of an appeal. I definitely cannot support A, because I think his mainspace editing needs to be restricted to fixing his mistakes. Anything less does not comport with the facts as we have them. As for B and C, I agree with participation in AfD, but that's in project space, not mainspace. I think objecting to PRODs or CSDs is not worth allowing. C comes closest to how I feel, but I don't feel that we need to make formal restrictions of his editing outside of mainspace. He should be able to communicate on his talk page and user page, without being restricted, and he should probably be able to comment on talk pages of articles. --] (]) 23:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' Like it was mentioned before I don't see any problem with EMG behaivour and no real proof of any wrong doing was provided.If someone don't want to read his comments he can just skip it.--] (]) 07:35, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''C''' if anything. (Again, wasn't pinged, but I have been a bit involved.) DragonofBatley keeps demonstrating borderline lack of competence. Most recently inserting one of his collages into an FA (I'd forgotten he also added collages) and getting the captions wrong. The clarity and correctness of the posting here is also at or below the standard we should expect for a participant in a writing project: {{tq| If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree.}} I don't trust their judgement on what is an improvement to an article; and how far should we stretch to try to accommodate someone who needs so many curbs and guiderails? I deeply appreciate the willingness of other editors to help them with the task of cleaning up their articles (as well as all the time and effort some editors have already expended trying to advise and help them); I recognise that there are legitimately differing views on some of what they like to do, such as the collages; but I'd rather see them restricted to their user talk and user space, workshopping the article fixes there. (Note: Several of the 400 or so articles have already been fixed, like the churches I worked on. The task is less massive than it may seem.) ] (]) 03:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' - Gregory stands , yet the clearly not misuse of sources at all! Read the ] and refutations : in the first two diffs, Gregory was correct and the other editor was unable to interpret a complex research paper. In the second two diffs, both IceWhiz and Gregory ]. In any event, deficient misreading of sources by others does not make Gregory guilty of the very serious accusation of misuse of sources.<br> Furthermore Gregory stands accused of , w/o diffs provided. If anything, there should be ] on the discussions on this Notice. ] (]) 10:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Prefer''' the less stringent '''option A''' because I’d like to see self-motivation from DragonofBatley to assist with the clean-up. OK with adding "successfully" to the option. It is disappointing that Dragon has recently made errors on ], all the more so it being a featured article, and it did lead me to consider supporting a ‘tougher’ restriction. Whatever is decided, it would be unreasonable for Dragon to be bombarded with too many queries over a short space of time; in particular, AfD nominations should be staggered. Dragon’s articles are on encyclopedic topics; though it looks a fair few will be merged or redirected because of marginal notability. After a very brief review, it seems the use of erroneous citations is mostly a recent phenomenon (last three months or so). Note the increased pace of Dragon’s article creation from September 2024. ] (]) 12:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose'''. I see no problem whatever with EM Gregory's behavior, certainly in terms of use or misuse of sources. He posts a lot in AfDs but these are heated AfDs on difficult subjects, in which such behavior are common and acceptable. One-sided ANI actions by content opponents is untoward, and this definitely falls in that category. ] (]) 11:39, 30 October 2017 (UTC) I agree with the boomerang suggestion below. ] (]) 14:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:That's interesting, even though they have been using this account since March 2020 over half of their articles are less than 6 months old, I'd consider only reviewing those less than 6 months old (at least for now) as those older have likely been improved but I guess there's no harm and might well be best. ''']''' (]) 19:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' as per Coretheapple and Xavier, and I think I might agree with the Boomerang. This does seem to be ideological and not behavioral. ] <sup><font color="Green">]</font></sup> 13:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:"Oppose further restrictions such as editing articles, workspace and general edits". I have no issues with proposals but I would oppose being restricted from making general edits such as updating infoboxs like I did with ] and ]. I updated them with photos and infoboxs. Yeah I made a couple of questionable edits on Holme Lacy but that article needed some updating since it was slightly written with some questionable wording like it calling Holme Lacy a town which it never has been but flew under editors radars for decades. I also added new collages to spruce up the infoboxs a bit. Especially with some of tw towns in Telford and boroughs of Greater Manchester. Also just because an article in 2008 got FA status doesn't make it protected from edits. I added a collage, hardly a throw away from my edits back on Skegness. Where I challenged old information from an old census database. I have agreed already about the articles and to look at my created ones. I even added a couple of sources to Hollyhurst, Telford and participated in its nomation. So i am taking note but I also have other things going on. So my edits or acknowledging of them maybe a bit later than others. ] (]) 03:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose'''. Gregory has been perfectly reasonable in AfDs in recent months, and has been providing important sourcing. If at all we have seen a problem with spurious terror related AFDs (this comes to mind - but this hasn't been the only one).] (]) 16:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *::It concerns me greatly that while there is a discussion about your future at ANI you are still making a large number of very questionable edits. I still have half a mind to say this is too much trouble and go for a block, but as you’re ignoring ], I’m not sure that point won’t be too far off. - ] (]) 03:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::@] at this point. I can see you do not like me. I can see this from both your wording of "sub-standard crap" and "go for a ban". Some choice wording and actions. I've already answered enough but your clearly made up your mind. Nothing else will convince you. Perhaps you should not engage further with me at this point. Cause nothing I say or do seems to provide enough evidence to quell your subtle dislike of me. Prehaps you should just let the other editors handle it. Im not gonna apologise further and try to change your opinion of me. I wont reply further to you at this point. Your wording is coming across as aggressive and threating to me. ] (]) 18:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Absolute nonsense. I neither like nor dislike you. I have major concerns over your ability to edit and I stand by my judgement of your output. I have further concerns over your decision to create category pages and work on categories while the thread was going on rather than start clearing up the mess you’ve made. All you’ve done is provide more evidence that you lack the ability to edit within the guidelines. Again, this is nothing to do with liking or not liking you as an individual (I’m entirely ambivalent about you) but it is about your output and the additional time and effort you are making others go through to tidy up the mess you’ve made. ] (]) 18:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::Okay thanks for clarification. I understand your position better now. ] (]) 18:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === |
==== Discussion ==== | ||
| * I think I would be happier if: | |||
| I read this, and sigh and go "again". I have personally chosen very deliberately not to get involved. I have though seen this go on and on, and feel that I cannot stay quiet anymore. I used to edit on terrorism articles, and made some good faith if ill judged AfD's. I though by the end gave up on any interactions where E.M.Gregory is present. | |||
| # there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400). | |||
| # I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "{{tq|This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}.}}" This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB '''prove''' to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - ] (]) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't see why we need to restrict userspace editing. This would allow them to create pages that would help show that they can create suitable articles. If there are later problems then it can be added but otherwise poor quality drafts in userspace are generally harmless. Is there evidence of problems here? ''']''' (]) 19:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Because at the moment there are at least a couple of hundred articles that are sub-standard crap and getting him to focus on cleaning those up is important (rather than leave them for everyone else to tidy up while yet more rubbish is churned out in userspace). A temporary hold on article creation in userspace is no great loss to them and will save a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted. - ] (]) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See ]. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). ]] 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * {{ping|KJP1|Cremastra}} Another element for the cleanup project: where an article has been created at a disambiguated title, it should be added to the relevant dab page (or a hatnote made from base title). Dragon hasn't been in the habit of doing so.| <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">{{snd}}Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| * I'd be happier if everyone would wait to get all of these details worked out, '''before''' posting and !voting on new proposals. At this rate, we are chasing our tails, with new proposals coming out as soon as someone objects to something, and then there's an objection to the objection. This is frustrating, and not getting us anywhere. And instead of !voting on how stringent the restrictions need to be, let's try to get consensus on how stringent they need to be. | |||
| :Some editors are still saying that we can be fairly loose with how Dragon can edit in mainspace. Personally, I feel like all the evidence I've seen points against that, and I hope that those editors will come around to changing their minds. We have a ton of evidence of edits that cause harm in mainspace, in our reader-facing content, and it's more important, I think, to get that under control, than to hope for the best based on Dragon's enthusiasm for editing. Anyone who disagrees with that, please provide evidence to support your view. | |||
| :I also see some arguments that it is, supposedly, unfair to have too many AfDs going at one time. I'm not buying that. We cannot restrict other editors from filing more AfDs. If there's a community ''consensus'' to delete, then that should be that. Again, what stays in mainspace, or doesn't, matters more than giving some special consideration that would outweigh consensus. | |||
| :I think it's getting clear that we also need to restrict him from editing category space, and that the supervised cleanup needs to be deemed "successful". As for userspace, I agree with restricting against new content creation in userspace (essentially: no userspace drafts, as well as no AfC drafts), but I think other uses of userspace, including user talk, and using the space as a sort of scratchpad for the supervised cleanup, should be permitted. --] (]) 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * The user demonstated enough maturity and will to take criticism and improve. Yes, him being neurodivergent makes that harder to accomplish, but he just wants to contribute; stop killing his enthusiasm and help him improve instead. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – ] and ] also apply here. --] (]) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::{{re|Tryptofish}} I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the ]. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance).{{snd}}] (] <b>·</b> ]) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::Thanks for those very constructive thoughts. I appreciate what you are saying. I know KJP1 very well, and I have high confidence in both him and Cremastra to provide exactly the kind of guidance you recommend. --] (]) 00:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::@] He's had quite a lot of both time and guidance already. ]] 10:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I'd agree the debate is getting a bit lost in the weeds. Are there not basically two views? I think there is agreement that we don't currently want new articles being created, either directly or through AfC, until clear evidence of improvement, gained through engagement in reviewing the 400+ already created, is presented at appeal. Some think that is sufficient, and editing in mainspace should otherwise be permitted, while others favour limiting editing in mainspace to the 400+, and to any related discussions, with others editors involved in clean-up/at AfD/etc. If that is the main point of difference, my suggestion would be that we err on the side of leniency and allow other editing in mainspace. If that proves problematic, we can always come back here. I think there is great benefit in reaching agreement, and enabling Cremastra, myself and others to begin working with DragonofBatley on reviewing the 400+. That will enable them to demonstrate their commitment, give solid evidence as to their ability to learn and to improve their editing, and clean-up the articles for the benefit of readers. ] (]) 07:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| **That’s a good summary of how I see things too. If leniency is the path, I think we’ll be back here soon. Recent editing while this thread has been going on shows a lot of new problems being created but no progress on the clean up. I think we’re likely to see as many problems being created as are being sorted, but I’ll bow to the consensus if it goes that way. ] (]) 07:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::@], I have started to engage with your sandbox you tagged me. I can see some already noted and some already seeing afd afm and redirect. I think you'd be better off tagging me more for articles needing a clean up desperately than ones being afd and confirmed as notable. Ill engage with that sandbox as its on my Watchlist and make necessary changes where needed. Not off a whim since your going back to the start of my time on this site. It'll offload my workload and help with afd and afm to discuss deletion or merging. ] (]) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too ] for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. ] (]) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. ] (]) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I, too, would like to move this towards a decision. It seems to me that the sticking point is over differing views about whether DoB should be placed under strict restrictions about editing, in order to control a history of negative effects upon our reader-facing content, or whether to allow DoB a greater amount of leeway in editing, based on his sincere desire to be a good contributor and consideration of his self-described status as neurodivergent. I think we need to go one way or the other on this, and once we do that, we can get to consensus. There's little point in editors repeating what we have already said, and going back and forth over that. I think we should look at the evidence we have, and seek a consensus – not unanimous consent, but ]. And nobody here is coming from a position of personal dislike of DoB, or wanting to get rid of DoB. We wouldn't be working so hard on crafting this, if that were the case. | |||
| :::::The editors, including me, who favor strict restrictions have provided a significant amount of evidence, based on edit history and continuing edits, to support that view. In my opinion, editors who oppose those restrictions are acting more out of a feeling, rather than based upon the actual characteristics of mainspace edits. At least, that's my opinion. I've been thinking hard about this, and it seems to me that stricter restrictions would provide DoB with ''structure'' while working to correct past mistakes and move forward into good editing status. And I believe ''structure'' to be A Good Thing. A lack of structure would actually make things more difficult. Structure (just until such time as the restrictions can be lifted) would be helpful. I really hope that we can agree on that. --] (]) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I ] KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. ] (]/]) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Stalking from @Iruka13 == | |||
| E.M. Gregory has been on different noticeboards multiple times; multiple different issues, and multiple different users. Some of the time E.M. Gregory is on the receiving end, and sometimes E.M. Gregory is the person dishing it out. The discussions are all enormous, and all volumous. The question I have to ask the community is when does the editing style, AfD contributions, and BLP style become such that the project is being disrupted? | |||
| *{{userlinks|Iruka13}} | |||
| It is a forgone conclusion that Afd's will end in no consensus unless E.M. Gregory view is accepted. As it stands AfD's on anything related to terrorism, are not able to take place. Previously it was some BLP articles. | |||
| This is a continuation of various discussions happening on the Talk page of the user ]. | |||
| I have been feeling harassed and stalked by this user for months now, figuring it was only me. Except, as is evidenced from that user's talk page, it ISN'T only me. As well as ], @] has laid out their own harassment. Bear in mind both of our posts come AFTER the user was already banned for a week by @] for incivility to a different person entirely. I don't believe it's only us. | |||
| There needs to be a looking at the whole contribution of E.M. Gregory. Is E.M. Gregory's current way of engaging allowing the project to function? | |||
| :The fact E.M. Gregory is both on the receiving end of negative behaviour, as well as being reported for their behaviour, must indicate a problem with the users conduct. It shows, they rub people up the wrong way and incite poor behaviour, and respond in kind. The wider E.M. Gregory user profile needs looking at. Looking at each incident and report as it arrives in isolation, will never solve the behaviour issues on both sides which seem to be stuck like super glue on E.M. Gregory. | |||
| As laid out: one of my photos was tagged by @] for deletion around 4 months ago. So fine. Except when asking why, or if the user had read any of the supporting material, I was met by threats to delete work I'd done on the site - plus varying degrees of condescension and bullying. This was largely on the talk page of a now deleted file. Since then, the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons. The reason I say this is stalking is that these images aren't new. If there was a genuine issue, they could have *all* been tagged four months ago. Instead it's a drip-drip-drip. As an example, was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data. | |||
| I expect E.M. Gregory to attack me, as they have already previously mentioned me negatively in this discussion. I would though say that is indicative of the issues with E.M.Gregory, they are antagonistic and confrontational. | |||
| If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream of harassment. They never engage civilly, never explain, never offer any reasoning. Again, from the other comments on the user's Talk page, this practice of stalking, bullying, and condescension is seemingly not a one-off. I don't understand how there can be so much drama on a single six-week period of one person's Talk page. Especially when, apparently, the user has already been banned from Commons for similar destructive behaviour. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| I can provide a compiled list of all the reports to all noticeboards if that is requested. E.M. Gregory is though now taking up so much time, of so many users on certain topics and noticeboards. It is getting to the point of disrupting the ability for Misplaced Pages to function properly in some areas; namely AfD's on terrorism articles. ] (]) 02:43, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::*User:Sport and Politics, and I met when he started a series of AfDs in August and September. I guess there were ~ 20, almost all with the same copy-paste nomination rationale. Here is an example ]. I opposed probably all of the deletions he nominated. I believe that they were all kept, many were speedy kept. ] (]) 10:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::*The expected Ad Homenim, as forecast. E.M. Gregory just doesn't seem to get it. This will in all likelihood be going to ArbCom. E.M. Gregory has to respond to everything, and bears a ] against everyone they have interacted with who they disagree with. This goes against ] and goes against trying to act in the best interests of Misplaced Pages as a project to build an encyclopedia. E.M.Gregory treats Wikipeidia as a battleground no better than a mudslinging set of attacks, designed to veto anything they disapprove of. The community needs to take action, or decent users, here to further the cause of building an encyclopedia will simply take one look at interactions with users who are allowed carte blanche to behave badly, and simply leave. ] (]) 15:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' I completely agree with and endorse this. In my opinion, having participated in several AfD's and discussions involving {{u|E.M.Gregory}}, their actions amount to ]. They effectively have a one-user veto over the deletion of any article on the project; that is unacceptable and is driving away other constructive editors. Another thing that I am always astounded by is their blatant, unapologetic dishonesty every time they participate in a discussion. E.M.Gregory sees Misplaced Pages as purely an ] and is willing to cynically engage in whatever dishonest tactic necessary (whether personal attacks or outright lies) to achieve their political goals. I, frankly, cannot understand how E.M.Gregory has got to this point without people raising serious concerns about ]. The problem here is, just like at the AfDs, admins can't be arsed to properly read and go through all this (I don't blame them) and take the action we desperately need. ] (]) 03:49, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*AusLondonder and I met at ] and ] <small>(linked with ])</small>. I was still wet-behind-the-ears and that pair of discussions with his gonzo editing style was my baptism-by-fire, a new editor hit by someone who knew all the rules. It was memorable. I should perhaps add that yesterday, I followed an editor to Auslondonder talk page, was surprised by the comment that editor had made, so I weighed in . i fear that my comment may have provoked AusLondonder to come here.] (]) 11:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Just dropping a link to my discussion with Iruka . My block was less about whether they were technically correct, but their complete unwillingness and inability to edit in a collaborative environment despite a multitude of warnings. I have not followed up with further sanctions as at least one admin disagreed, and I haven't had the on wiki time to moderate this. My POV there and here is that being right isn't sufficient, and Iruka13 has to learn to play well with others if he's going to edit here. I am not sure whether this is a language barrier, but they've been told a number of times that their conduct is problematic. ] ] 03:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm also going to add from what I've seen at the deletion discussions (they've not targeted any of mine; I exclusively deal in copyleft media on Commons) that Iruka13 is frequently and obviously meritless in their nominations. A huge portion of them are very obviously spurious in a way that's comparable to ] and ], where the amount of energy required to nominate them is immensely lower than the amount required to refute them. I'm genuinely baffled that they've been getting away with this. If they were basically always correct and just being – pardon my French – an insufferable jackass about it, that would be one thing. It's another thing entirely, though, to take a birdshot approach to deletion noms knowing there will be zero repurcussions for whichever spuriously nominated ones survive the discussion because ]. It's literally just a technique aimed at exhausting the other party, and this bizarre edge case they're creating has made me think that we might actually need some sort of limit on the number of noms possible in a given time period. <b>]</b> ] 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Can you provide the redlink to the "talk page of a deleted file" where you said that the harassment "largely" occurred? Administrators can view the content of a deleted page. :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd love to - but I don't know how to find a page that was deleted so long ago. I think it would have been around October 2024? Is there a way I can search this out? ] (]) 03:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I am reproducing the comment from ] here:{{tq2|Do you even know what is ] and what is not? Where in ] is this distinction mentioned? Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and ]? And ], ok? — Ирука<sup>13</sup> 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)}} ] (]/]) 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes! That's the comment. The "demolish everything you wrote" bit. | |||
| ::::The same user has now been following me around for months. This is exactly the reason other users like @] feel unsafe. How is this allowed to go on? ] (]) 03:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That conduct probably would have merited a temporary block in November, but I'm not going to block him based on that now without more evidence that it's part of a pattern. Regarding {{tq|the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons}}, could you please provide diffs (perhaps to talk page notices that you got) of spurious deletion nominations? ] (]/]) 03:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It's the process of one after the other, after the other. | |||
| ::::::If there were genuine issues with images, why didn't Iruka tag them all back then? Instead, it's been a drip-drip-drip all the way up until today. This is why I feel harassed. The tagging isn't on new images. | |||
| ::::::As an example, was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data. | |||
| ::::::If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream. ] (]) 03:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::My understanding is that stuff like that lead to Star Missicipi's 1 week block on the 10th of December. Has there been any conduct made you feel uncomfortable since their block expired, beyond nominating your images for deletion (indicating they might be watching which images you make) and them being deleted? :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Jinx voorts, beat me too it! Had an edit conflict there (but forgot to add {{ec}})! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Hi. Yes. was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data. | |||
| ::::::If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream. | |||
| ::::::Basically, why would they suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months, on a whim? ] (]) 03:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::My guess would be that the user was looking through your file creations (which is not sanctionable conduct by itself) as they had found you to be, in their opinion, a creator of fair use files that may not meet our guidelines for free-use content and was seeing if there were any others to tag for deletion. If you don't agree with decision of the admin who chose to accept the CSD nom and delete the file, you can submit an appeal to ]. I'm not entirely sure what you want to be done here? Has there been any re-occurance of subpar communication like the above since the 17th of December? ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::But that's exactly my point. All those files were already on Misplaced Pages at that previous time. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged in one go. | |||
| ::::::::Instead, it's tag a file, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another. And repeat. | |||
| ::::::::But why would anyone keep returning to those old images, from a single user, over and over and over? | |||
| ::::::::That's why I feel harassed. Especially because - as with the image linked above - I don't believe there's an issue. | |||
| ::::::::Plus, as pointed out by @], tahere have been more than 150 image deletion nominations in the last two weeks alone. ] (]) 04:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Three* but nonetheless correct. <b>]</b> ] 04:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)e | |||
| ::::{{U|Voorts}}, you just beat me to it--thanks. But let me add that Peterson doesn't look good either. What Iruka was responding to was this, " There's no point in people drive-bying these pages with that "needs image" tag if, when somebody tries to do something about it, a person *with zero knowledge of the subject matter* doesn't bother to do any reading before rejecting. This whole process is ridiculous." ] (]) 03:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I've undeleted that file talk page so non-admin watchers can see the whole exchange in context. ] ] 03:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm reading over a bunch of material, including their talk page. It's clear to me (and I think ] agrees) that many of their deletion nominations are correct. On the other hand, the way in which they go about things is deemed problematic by plenty of others, and I wonder if ], ], ], and ] have any additional insight. ] (]) 03:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Yeah, that matched my understanding, including them being usually (but by no means always) right on the merits but problematic in how they went about it. I don't really have the energy to spent more time analyzing this than I already have - the other admins watching this page can do what needs to be done and I don't think any further comments from me would be helpful. ] ] 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Their nomination of ] was not correct. The file had a nominally large pixel size, but was very compressed. When I removed their tag for the image to be shrunk, they nominated it for speedy deletion, which makes no sense and is clearly retaliatory. They tagged it as being an entire work uploaded when an excerpt would do, when they knew it was a single compressed frame from a 44 minute film. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I wouldn't say that their tagging of the file for speedy deletion was totally incorrect and made no sense given the size of the original file that was uploaded; the close to ] and the ] of the {{tlx|Non-free no reduce}} template ] to the file's page and ] of the the {{tlx|Non-free reduce}} template originally added by Iruka13. For reference, {{u|Voorts}}, who's an administrator, did !vote delete in the FFD, but for a different reason; the file ultimately was kept, but it was reduced. You disagreed with the tagging of the file for reduction by Iruka13 but, for some reason, don't seem to have an issue with the closing administrator who did exactly the same thing. -- ] (]) 13:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I forgot about that discussion. I don't think it makes me involved here, but I'm not planning on taking action at this point anyways. If any evidence of a continuing problem had been presented, as I've asked numerous times, I would have blocked, but the allegations of stalking are based on very thin evidence. ] (]/]) 14:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@], you don’t know what I don’t have an issue with. I still think there was no reason for the bot reduction of the file. The relevance of the reduction tagging is in the fact that “this file should be kept and altered” cannot lead to “this file should be deleted” without some major change in opinion, which Iruka never explained—hence my belief that it was just a lashing-out, as I believe is evidenced by the fact that their tag alleging that the file interferes with the market role of the original work and that the still is a complete work from which an excerpt could be taken instead was completely false and never explained—''still'' never explained, actually. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 18:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Four of your uploads (the one discussed above, ], ] and ]) were all uploaded at sizes considered big enough to be tagged by a bot for reduction almost within a day of being uploaded. The file discussed here was tagged by a bot ], but you removed the tag ] and added a "Non-free no reduce" template ]; perhaps you thought that resolved things. Iruka13 removed the "Non-free free no reduce" template ], and you re-added it ]. I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again and led to accusations of edit warring. The file was tagged for speedy deletion per ] and ], each of which are reasons related to ]. You then started the discussion about the file, first on its talk page and then at FFD, and Iruka did respond on both pages. None of the above seems to seems (at least to me) to clearly indicate any type of retaliaton against you by Iruka13; rather, it seems like something not too uncommon when it comes to disagreements over non-free files, and it also seems to have been resolved as such. If you can demonstrate that Iruka13 did similar things with respect to your other file uploads or uploads by others, then that might indicate a pattern of some kind; their interaction with you, however, seems to have been civil and seems to have ended with the FFD. Finally, the "Criterion 3b, because an entire work is being used when a portion or a reduced-size copy would suffice" used in the {{tlx|di-fails NFCC}} template is boilerplate text added when a template's {{para|3b}} parameter is set as {{para|3b|yes}}; so, that's the default option when using that template. Personally, I might've just skipped that template and gone to FFD instead, but different strokes for different folks, and, once again, I don't see tagging the file for speedy deletion as being a retaliatory act. Iruka13 can't delete files and any files they tag for speedy deletion are going to be ultimately reviewed by an administrator, and it's possible that the file would've ended up at FFD based on that review. If you've got issues with the bot tagging the file for reduction, the bot operator is probably the best person to express them to. Similarly, if you feel the FFD close was incorrect, you can follow ]. -- ] (]) 20:25, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::> I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again | |||
| ::::::And therein lies the point because you shouldn’t have to guess. Iruka could actually engage with editors on a polite, peer-to-peer, basis. | |||
| ::::::Instead, there is no engagement. It’s tag, move on; tag, move on - dozens of times a day, every day. And should anyone dare engage, they get wikilawyered, or threats such as: | |||
| ::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote | |||
| ::::::All from a user who, by their own admission, has multiple bans for harassment. Which is, at least from my standing, why I and others feel bullied and harassed. After all it is someone who’ll openly tell you that’s how they behave, knowing full well they get welcomed back to do it again. ] (]) 20:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You cannot nominate a file for deletion because you think your tag is going to be removed. That is not a deletion rationale. I don’t care about establishing a pattern of behavior for this user—I’m just saying that they tagged a file for deletion because they got annoyed that their NFR tag got reverted, and that is a problem. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 02:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You can, however, nominate or tag a non-free file for deletion if you feel it fails to meet <s>all</s><u>one</u> of the ten non-free content use criteria. Iruka13 listed two criteria that they felt the non-free use failed; you disagreed with their assessment and the file ended up being discussed at FFD. That's a fairly common occurrence when it comes to disagreements over non-free use, and doesn't necessarily mean anyone was annoyed or trying to retaliate. The fact that the non-free file was kept but also reduced, also doesn't mean they were totally incorrect in their assessment, at least with respect to NFCC#3b. You posted above that I {{tq|don't know what you have an issue with}}, yet you're quick to assume that Iruka13's tagging of the file just had to be done to get back at you. -- ] (]) 03:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)<ins>; <small>post edited. -- 03:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)</small></ins> | |||
| ::::::::There is an unexplained gap between putting a file in a queue to be altered and nominating it for deletion for failing two criteria (neither of which it failed—not a single other editor supported those arguments). My judgment is that this was done out of spite. That editor should feel free to correct me and explain himself. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 15:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :@] & @]: If I am going to take action, I need to see a post-block pattern of conduct. Please provide some form of evidence, such as diffs. ] (]/]) 03:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::My most recent issues relate to the file I linked above - . This was tagged last week and deleted today. | |||
| ::Again, if the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's the fifth or sixth(?) that's been tagged and deleted since that first one. Each a week or three apart. | |||
| ::Of course I feel stalked. None of these images are new. They could've all been tagged at the time. | |||
| ::Instead, it's drip-drip-drip. | |||
| ::On that one linked above, why would Iruka suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months on a whim? Unless it's because they're stalking. It's the same behaviour described by @] ] (]) 04:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The instructions at the top of this page state: {{tq|Be brief and include ''']''' demonstrating the problem}} (emphasis in original). I am not going to block someone without evidence. ] (]/]) 04:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There's no way I could possibly fulfil what you ask. | |||
| ::::The point is that instead of tagging multiple files for deletion in one go, the same user has tagged image files of mine one after the other. Tag for deletion, wait 2-3 weeks, tag, wait 2-3 weeks, tag. | |||
| ::::I can't see the files *because they've been deleted*. What am I supposed to link you to? | |||
| ::::Even if all the deletions were correct - and I'm not convinced that's true - how is this a legitimate way to act? | |||
| ::::The harassment is that all these files were live when the first tag was made. Instead of highlighting any issues at the time, Iruka has been following me around the site for months. I'm not the only person saying this. ] (]) 04:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Looking at your talk page history, you received two deletion notifications on 12 November 2024 (one for an image that you uploaded that same date, and one for an image that you uploaded a few weeks prior), one on 22 November 2024 for the image you uploaded 12 November, one on 3 December 2024 for an image you uploaded in October, and one on 6 January for an image you uploaded in October.{{pb}}The 22 November nomination makes sense in context because it was originally nominated for lacking an adequate license per F4 on 12 November, which was remedied, and then Iruka came back ten days later to nominate it for lacking contextual significance. That leaves the nominations on 3 December and 6 January. Two nominations one month apart is not adequate evidence of stalking, in my opinion. ] (]/]) 04:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I also note your responses to two of those notifications (both for files that were deleted): | |||
| ::::::* ] | |||
| ::::::* ] | |||
| :::::: ] (]/]) 04:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::OK @] & @]- I think I have been able to find some sort of timeline to illustrate what I'm saying. | |||
| :::::::On 12 Nov, ] was nominated for deletion. I'd uploaded in the days before, so OK. Fair enough. I'm still not convinced by the merits of this deletion in regards to the point of the page and the image - but OK. | |||
| :::::::On 22 Nov, ] was nominated. | |||
| :::::::On 3 Dec ] was nominated. | |||
| :::::::On 6 Jan ] was nominated. This is the most dubious of all. | |||
| :::::::These four images were all there at the time of the first nomination. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once. | |||
| :::::::Instead, it's four over two months - which comes directly after the message: | |||
| :::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote | |||
| :::::::Which is exactly what's happening. Spaced out, spurious nominations. | |||
| :::::::Why would a user suddenly return to look at a different user's work, weeks apart, unless they're stalking? | |||
| :::::::And, if it was only me, then maybe I'd put it down to paranoia. Except the user's Talk page has at least one other user saying a very similar thing. | |||
| :::::::I can't see the comments you've linked to btw - but believe it or not, when someone says | |||
| :::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote | |||
| :::::::and then starts doing it, it does tend to lead to incivility. ] (]) 04:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Just to add, by the user's own admission in 2023, they have | |||
| ::::::::> 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects | |||
| ::::::::Link: ] | |||
| ::::::::That's in *their own words*. ] (]) 05:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::{{tq|If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.}} There's no rule that requires an editor to go through another editor's contributions and decide whether to nominate them for deletion all at once. There are also innocent explanations, such as not wanting to overwhelm someone with a dozen nominations all at once or not having the time.{{pb}}Regarding Netherzone's claim of stalking, Iruka's "]" appears to be a place where they keep notes on files they intend to renominate for deletion at a later date.{{pb}}I am also well aware of the history of Iruka's blocks, but blocks can't be used to punish people for sins of the past. I see no evidence of stalking here and I won't be taking action. ] (]/]) 05:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::OK, so when another old file gets tagged with little justification in 2-3 weeks, can I message you again? What about 2-3 weeks after that? | |||
| :::::::::I don't even know how I'm supposed to appeal / counteract the tag-tag-tag behaviour. I can't see any justification for the deletion of today's file and it's not as if Iruka ever gives any reason. ] (]) 05:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{outdent|6}} Iruka has provided reasons consistent with policies, guidelines, and practice. For example, ] was tagged with <nowiki>{{di-fails NFCC|date=6 January 2025|1=yes|8=yes}}</nowiki>. I've reviewed the fair use rationale that you provided and I believe that the file was properly deleted. ] (]/]) 05:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Does 170 image deletion noms since Christmas count as "a pattern of conduct"? Because I see this as effectively a ] where it's functionally impossible for most editors to meaningfully evaluate the merits of each one. Since non-free media has to meet a substantially higher standard for 'Keep' than for 'Delete', this means that 'Keep' voters need to take substantially more time per nom than the 'Delete' ones, and creating such a glut of noms severely and unfairly tips the balance in favor of a 'Delete' vote on average. <b>]</b> ] 04:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please provide diffs. ] (]/]) 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Appreciate the ask, because this made me realize that I was incorrect about the original figure. It's actually 210 since Christmas, or a bit over 10 per day. and then Ctrl+F "up for deletion" and "tagging for deletion". 170 noms; 40 CSDs. I want to clarify I've been absent from this since the original block, but this has to be absurd to keep up with for anyone at the discussions trying to argue to in good faith to preserve these images. <b>]</b> ] 04:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::How many were declined by patrolling admins? How many were no permission tags where permissions were then added? An admin cannot block someone without evidence and I'm not going to dig through Iruka's contributions to look for it. ] (]/]) 04:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ultimately I haven't been keeping up with the situation on a per-nom basis, and by nature of them consistently putting up over 1000 edits a month, I'm not going to be going through them except for macro-scale patterns. I was brought here for my perspective, and this is it: that Iruka is abusing the system by making an unprecedented amount of noms with little regard for merit (the noms I witnessed were immediately pre-block, thus as you said not qualifying here for post-block behavior) in order to make dubious noms on average more successful solely because they can't have as much individual time dedicated to them. It's a very obvious tactic, and I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. I don't intend to go beyond what I was brought here to do for right now. <b>]</b> ] 04:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{tq|It's a very obvious tactic, I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it.}} Please do comment on other editors' motives without evidence. ] (]/]) 04:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Between more than one experienced editor accusing Iruka of stalking them, their "let someone else sort it out" attitude toward obvious, consequential mistakes they make, their argumentative behavior, their gross power-tripping attitude ("Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right?" (also note the wikilawyering going on in that comment)), their ridiculous noms (including arguments like "just use a 3D model bro" or "a free alternative can reasonably exist because you can just get a basketball backboard and break it for an image bro" or "just offer to pay them money to put it under a free license it bro"; all pre-block, so I'm not bothering to dig it up), the absurd frequency of noms they create, and their indefinite block on Commons, all I'll say is that I assume good faith until an editor flushes that down the toilet. With that, I'm done here unless someone has a specific question for me. <b>]</b> ] 04:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::"I have 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects." | |||
| :::::::::Kinda sounds like maybe this user does harass people, considering that's what they wrote *on their own page*. | |||
| :::::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100 ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :The stuff in this thread is basically ''de rigueur'' for this user: my past experiences with Iruka13 and file deletion have consisted of extremely bizarre wikilawyering, to the point where I felt like it bordered on deliberate trolling. I do not understand why this editor is permitted to waste so much of people's time with obviously vexatious nominations. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 06:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think the key element here is if the nominations were "obviously vexatious", I mean the ones that sparked this ANI were all accepted by the deleting admin, and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama. I wonder if there's a tool on toolforge or smth to calculate accepted vs denied CSDs/FfD noms which may paint a better picture, but from a spot check I just did of both CSD and FfD this are mostly either accepted by the deleting admin or the raised issues are resolved. ] <sup>]]</sup> 07:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::To my understanding this ANI is mainly about a) the volume of CSDs and FfDs and b) the user's laboratory. I don't think anyone is arguing that the nominations were actually meritless or vexatious, and those who said they were "wrong" may want to take that up with the deleting admin or ] because it's not like this user is mass-tagging and it's being declined... most of the time issues are resolved or the admin agrees and speedily deletes/the FfD closes as delete. ] <sup>]]</sup> 07:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::> and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama | |||
| :::You’ve guessed that this is their motivation - and your guess is equally as valid as my assertion that this is stalking. | |||
| :::In fact, much of various admins’ attempts at justification throughout this thread is guesswork - all of which has had to occur because Iruka does not engage with other users on a polite peer-to-peer basis. There is no “paper trail” to say “this is what they actually meant”. As has been evidenced and pointed out by multiple editors. ] (]) 11:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If you continue to assert this is stalking with no evidence, I will block you for personal attacks. ] (]/]) 13:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ok, I will simply ask you how do you know tags | |||
| :::::> were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama | |||
| :::::Have you guessed? Or has Iruka stated this anywhere? ] (]) 13:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::All of the files that he tagged that you uploaded were deleted. There is no rule that prohibits someone from nominating files for deletion spaced apart. At this point, it just feels like you're seeking revenge for that. ] (]/]) 14:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You're guessing my intention the same way you're guessing Iruka's. | |||
| :::::::"Revenge" isn't my intention at all. Revenge for what? If the files were legitimately deleted, then fair enough. It doesn't matter to me. | |||
| :::::::However, the spacing of the reports felt - and feel - like harassment. (I'm being clear that it *felt* like harassment because I don't want to be banned for what you assert are personal attacks). | |||
| :::::::Even with that *feeling*, I would have moved on were it not for the fact that other people were reporting very similar things on the user's Talk page. And then, with a small amount of checking, it seems that Iruka has admitted to harassing other users at various points in the past. And, from what others have said, Iruka has already been banned on multiple occasions, from multiple places, for precisely that. (I don't actually know if this is true). | |||
| :::::::So my *feeling* of being harassed was in fact legitimised by others feeling the same - and apparent past behaviour. Hence this. | |||
| :::::::On the files being deleted, for that specific one ], it was the first time I'd experienced this sort of tagging. I didn't really know what to do with it. | |||
| :::::::The info page said to leave an explanation on the Talk page - which I tried to do. | |||
| :::::::I was then told: | |||
| :::::::> I can demolish everything you wrote | |||
| :::::::along with what I now know is 'wikilawyering'. You can see how I reacted: | |||
| :::::::> Who goes onto a page and says "I can demolish everything you wrote" and then cries about bad faith?! | |||
| :::::::Because from the info page, I assumed that when an admin came to look at that file to decide upon deletion, they would see that remark and do something with it. I didn't even know this ANI process existed then. | |||
| :::::::Except nothing was done. The admin either read Iruka's "demolish" response and decided it was acceptable, or didn't read it. | |||
| :::::::And, ever since then, Iruka has continued to target me at regular intervals, leaving me unsure what - if anything - to do. | |||
| :::::::You can guess that the targeting is to "prevent looks of batch deleting" - but it's still a guess. Iruka could've engaged civilly, in the same way they could with any other user who has reported a problem. | |||
| :::::::In the same way they could be on this thread right now explaining what's actually going on. If they did that, neither you or I would have to guess. ] (]) 14:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Please forgive the length of this. This discussion has gone a bit sideways, the issue is '''''not''''' whether Iruka13 is “correct” or not in their file tagging and file deletions, the problem is that <u>''their behavior is disturbing and upsetting a number of experienced, good-faith editors''</u>, myself included. | |||
| The biggest thing shown by E.M.Gregory's comments are they believe every user has an axe to grind. The thing I am seeing here is the users who keep on reporting E.M.Gregory here simply want to move the project forward. E.M.Greogry is welcome to come along, as can been seen by the multiple proposals put forward to allow everyone to try and get along. E.M.Gregory it would seem does not want to get along with others as proposed, and by extension is not putting the Misplaced Pages project at the centre of their editing on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 15:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :You already said your piece, and you made sure to do it in a new section so everyone can see it. Your bias is showing, same as many of the support votes. ] <sup><font color="Green">]</font></sup> 15:58, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| It is precisely the same conduct that got them blocked on Commons, Russian WP and Ukranian WP. Stalking may not be the right term for the behavior but I do believe there is deliberate harassment conducted by the editor. Misplaced Pages itself defines harassment as {{tq|Harassment is a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually, the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing.}} That is clearly the effect their behavior has had with multiple ediors. | |||
| Here is a synopsis of my interactions with this user and why I feel I have been harassed and made to feel upset and frightened to the point that I’ve virtually stopped editing. | |||
| ::Call it bias, call it looking to put the project first, either way This and all the other reports surrounding E.M.Gregory are taking up way too much time here on Misplaced Pages from a pure procedural point of view. AfD's are so volumous, they are unworkable. I do not understand how this simply trying to put the project first is playing second fiddle to all of the other ephemera. ] (]) 16:18, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| 1. I uploaded ''']'''. After uploading I realized the size was too large for fair-use, and made a note of my error on the file talk page (I was unable to reduce it because I did not have access to Photoshop at the time). BTW, Zuni fetishes are ceremonial objects made by the Zuni tribe of Native Americans that are also sold as small sculptures; they have nothing to do with the sexualized notion of "fetish". | |||
| ===Boomerang Proposal=== | |||
| There are now three '''Support'' votes for boomerang. I propose a formal boomerang and admonishment regarding future ANI complaints. ] <sup><font color="Green">]</font></sup> 16:00, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*{{u|Sir Joseph}} on who and on what grounds? {{u|Carrite}} for writing a proposal based on the discussion? {{u|Huldra}} for filing a complaint based on behavior Gregory said he would improve upon but didn't? Me, because...why not? The oppose !votes are hardly from a group of neutral peers: all of them regularly take part in, or defend Gregory's actions at AFD. Of course they would oppose, he is the main advocate for their POV. And of course they would think he is reasonable in disrupting discussions and misrepresenting sources if it in the end it kept an article.] (]) 16:34, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| 2. I received message about the file on my user talk. Diff: to which I responded and answered on the file talk page. | |||
| == ] violations by JoeyPknowsalotaboutthat == | |||
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| | quote = Resolved, nac ] ] 18:14, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
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| :''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top--> | |||
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| ] is persistently disrupting the article ], and is deliberately avoiding ], ] and has now moved into ]. Despite multiple warnings on their ] page and attempting to get ] by ] and ], ] persists to make repeated nonconstructive and disruptive edits. | |||
| 3. The discussion then resumed at the File talk page about the deletion nomination. Diff: where I explained my rationale for fair use. The editor then responded with: {{tq| judging by the response you didn't look at them; right?}}, which I thought was rather rude to assume I don't read messages (which explains my response on my user talk page). | |||
| *Current recent repeated edits include : | |||
| 4. They then went on the argue with me in a mocking tone: {{tq|But it is so. wow, your contribution is bigger than mine, it's not for me to tell you about it}} and {{tq|wow_2, who am I telling this to?}}. I told them that their response did not seem very nice. They responded: {{tq|What I was trying to say is that what I'm saying, you already know. You know better than me. / uploading this image boggles my mind.}} I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi warned the editor on their talk page. | |||
| *Similar past edits include | |||
| 5. After I wrote a more detailed rationale why the file was suitable as fair-use, they refused to answer my own simple question responding instead with: {{tq|I can answer all the questions posed in this message. And I will, if it be necessary. But first, please answer the question - and, for the sake of the experiment, let's assume that all the images in that category are really unsuitable...}} and asked me an "experimental question" whether I could create from scratch a "completely free image", a proposal that would involve spending a large amount of money. Diff: As a volunteer editor, that seemed utterly absurd, and it became clear to me they were just yanking my chain. | |||
| *Origin of the persistence of installing this edit is seen in the added Note by ] since 12 September 2017 by . They then try and validate this with arguments like this , when in fact, they had already added the alleged false cited text themselves! Clearly evidence of both ] and ]. (Worst in reply, they stated to me "Are you even blind?", then go off on another tangent claiming yet another source. | |||
| 6. I then noticed they were treating others in similar ways, for example asking editors to buy a glass basketball backboard shield specifically to then smash it with a rock after installing a camera specifically to create a fair use image. Diffs: by {{u|Left guide}}) ]. This clearly seemed they were wikilawyering and arguing for the sake of argument with the intent to annoy and intimidate others. I think it was around this time that {{u|Star Mississippi}} issued a short block. | |||
| This is very clear evidence of ] - Tendentious editing. Their current active sandbox is seemingly pushing ] exclusively to this narrow subject and promoting themselves as an expert. | |||
| 7. I then noticed on their user page a link to their “Laboratory”, which creeped me out because the strange “experimental questions” seemed like mind-games. I noticed that not only was there an entry for the Zuni fetishes file, but that some of it was actually written in “invisible ink” using the < ! -- template, and included a a number of my file uploads. Diff from January 2: and . I know that being creepy is not a blockable offense but it scared the daylights me, because I have been Wiki-stalked not only online, but in real life. | |||
| The problems has been openly explained thoroughly here and discussion here , lastly here or as seen many times in the edit comments. ] just ignores all of it, and just adds another dubious source or states numbers with further unfounded or wrong assumptions. e.g. With justifications like. | |||
| 8. I directly asked them to STOP following me around. Instead they created a user sub-page, replacing all the images with 19th century inaccurate illustrations, romanticized representations of the art of Zuni tribe Native Americans by none other than an ethnographer who looted artifacts from the Zuni people. Diff: I again demanded that they STOP and I quit editing. I refuse to be someone's "experimental laboratory" subject, that is disturbingly creepy. | |||
| Other past editors have tried to engage with the problems with the size of this star before , explaining similar logic and reasoning, so it it not new. | |||
| 9. If this is considered “normal” behavior by administrators, well, then after 13 years of editing, I’m out of here. I can not and I will not have a hobby as a volunteer editor in a place where I feel unsafe and harassed, especially from a single-purpose editor with a long history of such behavior – no matter if their tagging or deletions are “correct.” | |||
| Furthermore, similar recent disruptive star edits include ], ] (saying "remove uncited data") or even ] with disruptive uncited edits like this. or | |||
| ] (]) 20:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm not going to respond point by point here, but I don't think the uncivil interactions with you are "normal" behavior. The issue is that Iruka was already blocked for that conduct and I still don't see how the pages Iruka created in his userspace{{snd}}which did not mention you by name and which he did not notify you of{{snd}}are harassment. If Iruka starts being uncivil again or starts harassing people, I'll be the first to indef him. ] (]/]) 22:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| They also have been involved with a recent ] investigation with ] as explained here., caused the page ] to need by ] page protection under ] and has required administration access only. . | |||
| ::The issue seems to be that the behavior Netherzone mentions has been experience by ''multiple other users''. This appears to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior spread out over quite some time. And quite honestly, the "laboratory" really does strike me as creepy behavior intended to needle other editors. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Just looking at the Revision history of List of largest stars shows the extent of the need for protection. (This action is about to expire.) | |||
| :::The only two editors I have seen complain about stalking are Netherzone and Peterspeterson. I've asked multiple times for evidence that Iruka's file deletion nominations are largely incorrect, but the only evidence provided thus far have been files that other admins have seen fit to delete and contested FFD discussions. In my view, this complaint seems largely based on vibes and conduct preceding the block. ] (]/]) 18:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Having been pinged to this, my experience and another thread I saw suggests to me that the user really wants to delete things - not just that they are being gnomish in the area of deletion for the benefit of Misplaced Pages, no, that they actively want to delete stuff and be uncivil to those who do not share this philosophy. In this way, they seem to mass search for anything that could have a valid reason to delete, even if another another option is better or, as in what drew my attention, even if they have to make up some reason why a file meets deletion rationale when it doesn’t. That is another issue: while their deletion noms may be generally correct because they are seeking out files with issues, their tagging of files that only need reduction to be deleted, their tagging of Commons-eligible files, and their bizarre suggestion to purchase an iage license as proof of owenership, strike me as someone who does not understand Misplaced Pages or Commons policy very well and does not care if understanding will get in the way of their tagging g. ULtimately, the poor tags that may not get chance to be corrected, and rejectiong collaboratoon, negate any positive of being the first person to tag some bad files and thus make the user’s contributions in deletion a net negative for WP. I am struggling just to type this on mobile so can’t or provide diffs atm. ] (]) 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I was pinged above by {{u|Drmies}}. I'm not going to read this whole case. I'll briefly say that my main interaction with Iruka13 was at {{section link|Misplaced Pages:Files_for_discussion/2024_November_28#File:Backboard_shattering.jpeg}}. I'm not an FFD regular, but I get the sense that these arguments they used were not mainstream: | |||
| It does appear that this editor has several disruptive issues which have not been able to be resolved. Even after repeated warnings, guidance, they continue poor behaviour and persist in their unwise editing practices. In this case, some form of ] maybe wise, either for some the short or long-term especially on 'Sizes of stars', ] or ] ] (]) 03:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Telling the uploader to buy the non-free image themselves and donating it for free. | |||
| :I have opened a page at ] ] (] '''·''' ]) 20:40, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Using AI/3D editors as free replacements. | |||
| ::This editor is persisting with '''disruptive edits''' in ], under which page protection ] was required with administration access only, then recently lifted. The said "I promise that I will stop my disruptive editing." and were (yet again) advised why their non-consensus edits are problematic. Some form of ] is required, else this problem continues or even escalates. ] (]) 22:19, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Those did not gain consensus at that FFD. If they are continuing these arguments, and have not gained community support, it would be disruptive and a ] might be reasonable. ] is a guideline, so its hard to gauge what part of their communication can be attributed to English not being their primary language and perhaps lacking the gentleness and politeness that are common in some English-speaking cultures, versus what's an actual harassing, wikilawyering tone. For example, they said: {{tq|And of course we can't buy the rights to the photo. We have to steal it.|q=yes}} Later, they claimed: {{tq|I decided here, in case the discussion is closed by , to buy the rights to the photo.|q=yes}} But they should also become aware of others' reactions as well, and take measures to adjust.—] (]) 12:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Action is needed''' to prevent further disruptions.....we should not have to lockup a page multiple times because one editor is "not here. After looking at this account further......I see links on their userpage indictating they are14 years old....not that age matters to edit here. .....but.....competency may be a factor here...behavioral maturity and the knowledge needed to edit the topic may be the main problems. --] (]) 00:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :The shattered backboard file was discussed and the consensus was to keep it; so, FFD seems to have worked as it's intended to work. For reference, two others !voted to delete the file in that FFD; so, that means at least two others agreed with Iruka13's assessment. Iruka13 might have a hard time expressing themselves in English if that's not their first language, and some of their arguments might be perplexing: personally, I wouldn't try the "buy the rights and donate the image" line of argument; however, the question here with respect tagging/nominateing files for deletion is (at least in my opinion) not whether Iruka13 is being a nuisance, but rather whether they're wrong so much more than they're right to the point that being that being wrong is causing things to seriously breakdown. The behavioral and poor communication issues and probably need to be addressed, but those things aren't limited to files; if those things are the real problem, then a t-ban/restriction related to files makes little sense to me. I don't see their assessment of files with respect to relevant policies as being perfect, but I also don't see it as being as bad as some posting above are claiming. -- ] (]) 21:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles == | |||
| '''Query''' {{ping|Arianewiki1}} {{green|Did you post a notice to the user on his talk page? I just left him a note on my talk page in response to his request to unprotect List of largest stars.}}] (]) 07:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :] now telling all to f off.--] (]) 17:55, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::See ]. This should be closed and archived now and an administrator should deal with it quickly and quietly per ]. Geez, no one noticed that? ] (]) 18:20, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::I left a message on their talk page regarding their editing. I've held off from a block at the moment, but made it clear that if they continued, a block was all but certain. ] (]) 18:48, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Editor not here to help the project ..--] (]) 18:10, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I saw and reverted that earlier. At this point I'm giving them ] before blocking. ] (]) 18:15, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * as soon as page is unlocked] .....time to kick to the curb. VERY hard to move forward when this oNE editor wont even join the talk about their edits--] (]) 14:10, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on ], however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them. | |||
| I think this account might be a sockpuppet of ] due to similar edits from ]: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=NML_Cygni&diff=785194583&oldid=782805735 and https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=NML_Cygni&diff=prev&oldid=804581616. ] (]) 22:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Diffs: | |||
| I am not the same person as Niyet'. That is enough. I am about to quit Misplaced Pages because of you. Go ban me if you want. --<span style="font-weight: bold; background-color:lime; color:red;">Joey P. - THE OFFICIAL</span> <sup>(]/])</sup> 05:11, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288 | |||
| :So 3 more reverts.....guess no one can take any action.....will just ask the page to be protected for the third time.--] (]) 14:30, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot) | |||
| :Hi Moxy, I have just given Joey an indef block for ]. I clearly gave him enough rope, and he used it. ] (]) 15:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609 | |||
| ---- | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383 | |||
| : ''The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from ] --></div><div style="clear:both;"></div> | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot) | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::Citation '''bot''' is an automated process, and not a human. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. ] (]) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :You can add this to the page in question – <nowiki>{{bots|deny=Citation bot}}</nowiki> – or you can add this to a specific citation – <nowiki>{{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}}</nowiki> – to keep the bot away. See -- ].]] 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that ] did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on ], see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. ] (]) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a ]. ] (]) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Citation bot is not a ], but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed: | |||
| ::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348 | |||
| ::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078 | |||
| ::"All ] apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account." | |||
| ::-] ] (]) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the ''person'' who is ''using'' the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Most of these seem to have been invoked by {{u|Abductive}}, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? ] (]) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on ]. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee {{rpa}}. Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. ] (]) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles: | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133 | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054 | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369 | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875 | |||
| :*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493 | |||
| :Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates. | |||
| :These edits were suggested by the following user: | |||
| :*] | |||
| :] (]) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Found another bad date in another article: | |||
| ::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by ] | |||
| ::Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. ] (]) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Found another bad date in another article: | |||
| :::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference) | |||
| :::Suggested by user: | |||
| :::*] | |||
| :::Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates ] (]) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::] is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". ] (]) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Because it is not necessarily an error. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::It is still about Citation bot. ] (]) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by ]. ] (]) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| You have given the operators ] to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org).  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? ] (]) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits.]] 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the ]. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —] (]) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that.]] 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus." | |||
| :::::-] | |||
| :::::] is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. ] (]) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It would be best if the bad source was removed, per ] and ]. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes.]] 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Can you quote the part of ] which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. ? ] (]) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —] (]) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about ], not ]. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about ''your'' use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. ] (]) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::] specifically says {{tq|The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. '''In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account.''' Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot}}. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —] (]) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::{{tqq|I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.}} I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to ] to me... - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them. | |||
| ::::::::::::As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —] (]) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::::I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>moved down from the middle of the above comment (]). – ] (]) (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::::::::::::So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right??]] 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. ] (]) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Unsupervised bot and script use has ]. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix ].... ] (]) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::We're into ]. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. ] (]) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{pb}}I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to {{u|Whoop whoop pull up}} two weeks ago () about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed ''me'' to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have ''continued'' to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at {{Section link|User talk:Whoop whoop pull up|Checking IABot runs}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. ''Both'' should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here ''neither''. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. ] (]) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :] is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it. | |||
| :* Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support: | |||
| :** ] says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, '''whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page'''" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot). | |||
| :** BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of ]. Now, ROLE ''does'' have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple '''managers'''", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're ''developed and maintained'' by a team of people (rather than ones that can be ''used'' by multiple people). | |||
| :** Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to ''50,000'' pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the ''only'' people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved ''despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible''; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they ''were, in fact, approved'' implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface. | |||
| :** ] seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page. | |||
| :** ] says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ''''", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user. | |||
| :** ] provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to. | |||
| :* Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support: | |||
| :** ] says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved ''despite'' the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance). | |||
| :] <sup>] 🏳️⚧️ ]</sup> 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy. | |||
| ::"Both should take reponsibility" | |||
| ::-] at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 ] (]) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? ] <sup>] 🏳️⚧️ ]</sup> 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere. | |||
| ::::Policy is very clear, '''don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus.''' ] (]) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. {{pb}}These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. ] (]) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Or, as ] puts it: {{tq|Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked.}} ] (]) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Citation bot has not been {{tqq|approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking}}. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at {{slink|User:Citation bot|Bot approval}}. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.{{pb}}But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.{{pb}}If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. ] (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot.]] 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::☝🏽{{Pb}}It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.{{pb}}I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.{{pb}}Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.{{pb}}Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.{{pb}}I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against {{u|Abductive}} or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion ''somewhere'' specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping {{u|AManWithNoPlan}}, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. ] (]) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots ''and'' checking the results.<span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).{{pb}}However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.{{pb}}Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.{{pb}}Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, ] (]) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"}} Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. ] (]) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. ] (]) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Katerina Kolozova == | |||
| ::Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 ] (]) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Is there anything left here to discuss? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:The behaviour continues https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Young_Island&diff=prev&oldid=1270982591. ] (]) 03:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == A bizare editing war on the trotskyist organization list == | |||
| What can we do to improve it? It is not an autobiography, although my student did use my account as he doesn't have one. As you can see, there is very similar page in Macedonian dedicated to me years ago, and this one is an improvement. Yes, by my graduate student who knows me well, but this is not an autobiography and there is not biased praise. All information is ACCURATELY REFERENCED!15:12, 21 October 2017 (UTC)] (]) | |||
| {{atop | |||
| :Sorry, what is all this? ]? ]? ]? Hello, ], what's up? — ]] 15:18, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| | status = No action needed | |||
| :I don't think ANI is the place for this (and you don't need to place the notice here, don't worry!)- but before it gets closed, I have to say I have trimmed your article, '']'', of various bloat and cruft. If you want to promote your works and career, there are ]. And regardless of whther you wrote it yourself, it does come under our ], which is rather strict, and requires serious referencing to support all claims made. The article fails to do so. Unfortunately- contrariwise to what you have suggested above- it is ''not'' ACCURATELY REFERENCED." — ]] 15:30, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have added a couple of ]. — ]] 16:10, 21 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :<small>I removed the ANI-notice template that OP unintentionally added to this post. —/]/<sup><small>]</small></sup>/<sub><small>]</small></sub>/ 15:29, 21 October 2017 (UTC)</small> | |||
| :::I have stripped out all non-sourced information from the article as a violation of ]. ] (]) 05:34, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Correct me if I'm wrong but this user's admittance of allowing their 'student' to use their account counts as as a compromised account does it not? --] (]) 20:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Technically yes, but in this case, there could be some good faith applied, perhaps, and advise Kkolozova that their student needs to register for account. ] (]) 23:25, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: It's certainly a compromised account if it's an admin account, and letting someone else have access to your account is no defense to vandalism or other intentionally disruptive behavior. Are you asserting that either's the case here? ] 08:05, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :They have been warned not to do so, the student(s) ha(s/ve) created their own account(s), and there is no on-going disruption. So the question is somewhat moot. — ]] 08:29, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| | result = Permanent debate among permanent revolutionaries. — ] ] 23:58, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == BrightR == | |||
| }} | |||
| *{{pagelinks|Tulpa}} | |||
| *{{pagelinks|List of Trotskyist organizations by country}} | |||
| In the last 24 hours some strage editing war seem to have taking place on the following page trying to remove or change it's content: | |||
| ] doesn't want to resolve a dispute in a peaceful way. Every time a consensus is attempted, they just roll back the edits, without any proper discussion done. In their rollbacks they apply the tactic of rolling back everything to the latest revision they find acceptable, ignoring any feedback. | |||
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/List_of_Trotskyist_organizations_by_country ] (]) 19:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| While some of their rollbacks might be correct, they do not want to discuss anything, rolling back attempts to remove unverified sources, grammatical and spelling errors. A few attempts were made to discuss this with a third editor, and the issue was escalated to . The user ignored the rules set by mediator and rolled everything back again without any discussion made. | |||
| :This looks like a content dispute. As ever, it should be addressed by reliable sources (which usually don't include social media sites) and talk page discussion. ] (]) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::These edit wars occur fairly regularly on articles related to these groups as there is a lot of in-fighting and division among members, former members and interested parties especially regarding the lineage of Trotskyist and communist organizations. If you are concerned and it continues, you can open a report at ] and please notify the involved editors when you open complaints like this. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Communist organisations taking chunks out of one another? Well, I never — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 22:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::To be fair, there is nothing more insulting than being incorrectly called a Trotskyist. ] (]/]) 01:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes, this oddity appears to likely be Stalinist splinters trolling each other by adding their rivals to the list of Trotskyist groups. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't know if this is really bizarre -- I'd say "Trotskyist organizations getting into petty internecine conflict" is about as predictable as, oh, someone already made this exact same comment. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 06:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::<small>The disputes between ], The Judean People's Popular Front, The Campaign for a Free Galilee, and The Popular Front of Judea? ] (]) 08:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == ] bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools == | |||
| The ignorance and abuse user shows is in clear violation of the ], addressed towards several other editors, at his point. ] (]) 16:47, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|PEPSI697}} | |||
| I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights. | |||
| : I can confirm this. I recently became interested in editing the article in question, and had all my edits reverted without explanation. They constantly argue that sources are illegitimate when they aren't, and raise WP:fringe concerns that don't exist. Even going so far as to start a dispute resolution process to prove all us other editors wrong, then declare the process failed when things don't go according to plan. ] (]) 17:14, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) {{Diff2|1264943166|a message}} for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person {{Diff2|1264946563|made a discussion on the talk page}} about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me {{Diff2|1264940021|this}} message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I {{Diff2|1264940623|didn't understand what exactly was the issue}}, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I {{Diff2|1265117356|wish him merry Christmas}}, he wishes me, everything is fine. | |||
| ::Hi fellas! When making AN/I complaints, it is customary to provide diffs! Let's provide some! | |||
| ::*The dispute started over {{diff|diff=802764733|oldid=802671928|label=what I considered POV edits, spending a paragraph emphasizing tulpa practitioners' POV, giving it undue weight.}} | |||
| ::*{{diff|diff=802697834|oldid=802695335|label=A third opinion agreed it was undue weight.}} | |||
| ::Three (or four?) more editors joined in, adding frivolous sources and using weasel-words to make claims that are not attributable to the provided source: | |||
| ::*{{diff|diff=804620321|oldid=804522526|label=Using an undergrad paper published in a predatory journal as a source}} (see "{{oldid2|804781343|Removal_of_the_modern_definition_section_.26_an_article_lock|Uncertain that the journal's predatory}}" for predatory journal info) | |||
| ::*{{diff|diff=prev|oldid=804975580|label=Presenting an internet survey about the social composition of tulpa practitioner communities as}} {{tq|i=y|A study on the subject of tulpas conducted in 2015 classified them as "imaginary companions who are said to have achieved full sentience after being conjured through ‘thought-form’ meditative practice".}} This unattributed claim is indeed quoted verbatim from the survey, however it's still unattributed and, more importantly, the survey itself is not a scientific study on the "classification" of tulpas, it's a survey of the population of some online communities, nor is the quoted material a classification or conclusion made by the study. It's simply an unattributed claim in the introduction. | |||
| ::*{{diff|diff=next|oldid=804977986|label=Synthesis}} (read more on {{oldid2|804978745|Research_by_R_L_Wakefield_is_inconclusive|Wakefield}} section) | |||
| ::*{{diff|diff=next|oldid=806388460|label=Using social media references for original research purposes}}. | |||
| ::And that doesn't even take into account {{oldid2|801570076|Your_edit_changed_the_meaning_of_the_statement|trying to pass off a work of fiction as a non-fiction autobiography}}. At first I assumed good faith, but as more and more frivolous edits accumulated, it became clear that there's POV-pushing going on here. Mistaking a work of fiction for non-fiction? Could happen... Using a social network as a reference? Let's link to ] and move on. Referencing a paper by an undergrad in a predatory journal? Oh well, mistakes happen... Synthesis? Let's link to ] now... Are we done yet? No? Using weasel words to incorporate unattributed information from an online survey, and skew a paragraph or two towards the tulpa practitioners' POV? Not going to assume good faith any more, this is POV-pushing. ] 19:10, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::And, specifically addressing ]'s complaints (for which they didn't provide diffs!), the dispute resolution failed because, {{diff|diff=prev|oldid=806513184|label=while it was still going on, the editors reintroduced the references to social media and misattributed claims with weasel words.}} From the closing comment: | |||
| ::{{tq|i=y|Closed as failed. Participation here is voluntary, and if an editor says that it has failed, it has failed. Resume discussion at the article talk page. Do not edit-war. Do not use unreliable sources such as Reddit and blogs. If discussion at the article talk page is inconclusive, the editors may make one more try at compromise via a request for formal moderation with a more experienced moderator, or may bring any specific issue to the reliable source noticeboard or the neutral point of view noticeboard. Disruptive editing may be reported at WP:ANI or the edit-warring noticeboard, but that will eliminate any possibility of friendly or neutral resolution. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| ::Note that the closer specifically asked not to use social media as sources. When using them as sources failed, {{diff|diff=806545661|oldid=806536404|label=one of the editors decided to add them as external links instead}}. This might be a good place to note that ], and that the article had issues before with repeated attempts to insert external links to tulpa websites... ] 19:20, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::As an added bonus, I'm being told there's consensus to add external links a few seconds after removing them and asking for consensus to be formed... all the while a POV dispute relating to these very links is going on and even being discussed on AN/I. ] 19:32, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Almost forgot! I was accused of "{{oldid2|804781343|Removal_of_the_modern_definition_section_.26_an_article_lock|shaming a murder victim}}" because I wrote {{tq|i=y|Must be hard to review "scientific" papers posthumously.}} ] 19:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: {{Diff2|1269540618|1}}, {{diff2|1268720318|2}}, {{diff2|1268521356|3}}, {{Diff2|1268313652|4}}, {{Diff2|1268308516|5}}, {{Diff2|1268121077|6}}, {{Diff2|1268119998|7}}, {{Diff2|1268118180|8}}, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is ]. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor ({{u|Augmented Seventh}}): {{diff2|1269323555|1}}, {{diff2|1269333853|2}}, {{diff2|1269126403|3}}. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15. | |||
| ::: On prompting by BrightR, I went to the only to find the diffs buried behind another literal massive edit war with a fourth editor. There are so many revisions. Edit: format error, sorry. ] (]) 20:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi {{Diff2|1269543780|replaced}} my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential ] violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to {{Diff2|1269546279|seek clarification}} as to why they did this on their talk page. In {{Diff2|1269548452|their response to me}}, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me {{Diff2|1269576325|this}} message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see {{Diff2|1269577089|this}} edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me {{Diff2|1269580448|this}} message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. {{Diff2|1269580707|This}} edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me. | |||
| *] and ], you need to provide ]s to prove your assertions. otherwise this ANI report is going nowhere. You haven't even linked or even named the article(s) in question. ] (]) 21:22, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - {{diff2|1269549064|here}} they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when ] ] for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of ] without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. ]] 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Sorry, got sidetracked. I've never done this before. Lots of reading. I'm not the primary editor in this dispute, so I am not familiar with the vast history of POV conflict being engaged here. This: ] is the one which took out all my edits, and also several discreet edits by Farcaller. The edit reason is also offensive. article: ] ] (]) 22:13, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: I'm going to respond to some of what BrightR wrote, as it was presented out of order. First, The moderator of the dispute resolution told us to edit the article. He made a special exemption, saying we should edit boldly, to fix the deficiencies in the article. But explicitly forbade pure reverts. Second, we did so, believing that we were told to do so. Third BrightR did a pure revert, with a rude edit message. Fourth, BrightR declared the dispute resolution a failure. Fifth, the dispute resolution was closed. ] (]) 23:54, 22 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::There was a DRN case at ] which was closed by the moderator as Failed at 16:25 on 22 October. Since that time it appears that ] has been to add an external link to reddit.com and a link to tulpa.io. It may be time to apply full protection to ], since people are not waiting for consensus on Talk. ] (]) 04:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::The moderator ''suggested'' bold editing, to which I responded {{tq|i=y|This will bias the edits completely in the direction of unreliable sources. The mediation has failed.}} Same when {{oldid2|806641687|What sources are reliable, and what we can do with non-reliable sources|one mediator suggested incorporating the social media sites in external links}}; consensus should be formed on whether the external links should be added. A ''suggestion'' is not the same as a blanket approval, just like ''not dis''qualifying a source by ] doesn't automatically qualify it for inclusion in the article. As for the edit reason being "offensive", it's in bad faith to incorporate disputed material in the middle of a dispute. Stop and wait for a resolution. ] 08:00, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I seriously advise you to read things more carefully. Why can't you just follow the rules? The article is being choked to death. I wish everyone would just take a break. ] (]) 09:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I reverted synthesis, original research, claims sourced to predatory journals and social media, and POV-pushing. I discuss and cite the relevant policies. Then I get accused that I "never commented on" those changes or that I'm "shaming a murder victim"; the person who added a work of fiction as a biography is accusing me of removing material "without making any proper research themselves"... {{diff|diff=prev|oldid=805264976|label=An IP-address-editor claiming to be you}} tried to {{diff|diff=prev|oldid=804629514|label=justify using an undergrad paper published in a predatory journal}}. Seems like I'm playing whack-a-mole; whenever one frivolous source is removed, another is added. When one policy is explained, another is tested. ] 09:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::My concern rises up from the following issue: the user in question tends to rollback edits disregarding any reasoning on them. E.g. rolled back the change to the first paragraph, that BrightR commented on as being unfit, but also, rolled back other edits that BrightR never comments on: (no comment was ever given), (previously removed by BrightR as irrelevant, after their editing removed the actual citation), (after thorough discussion in the Talk page and quoting the exact parts of the cited article to show it's irrelevant, and bringing this issue up to DRN, BrightR keeps reverting this edit with no comments), (again, never commented on). It is impossible to discuss anything with said user as they choose to reply to only those parts of the statements they like, if though I made specific attempt to raise these issues in dedicated sections of talk page. | |||
| ::Another example of blanket rollback can be , including statements coming from a , . | |||
| ::My overall concern with this user is that while they are fast to blame other editors (including myself) in the POV-pushing, their actions fall under the exact same concern. All the recent reverts were done without any proper discussion done in the talk page, and were pushing the article back to the state which they only find acceptable; rolling back not only attempts to add new content (which is discussable), but rolling back existing statements that do not belong to the article, without making any proper research themselves. ] (]) 08:36, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::There were reasons given, and the talk page is littered with them: | |||
| :::*Wakefield was removed because of ], see {{oldid2|804978745|Research_by_R_L_Wakefield_is_inconclusive|talk page}}. Seems incredibly in-bad-faith to claim I "never commented on" that. | |||
| :::*Dalai Lama was {{oldid2|805064538|The buddhist connection is a myth.|also discussed on the talk page}}, you sure I "never commented on" it? You were part of both discussions; the information is sourced, but, as I said in the talk page {{tq|i=y|you take the words sprul-pa and tulku, which three sources in the article say were translated into "tulpa", and you refuse to acknowledge this}}. Note that the synthesis isn't done by me, it's by a reliable source cited in the article. | |||
| :::*Moving on, {{diff|diff=806351302|oldid=805194294|label=this is unsourced information}}. See "{{oldid2|804982444|Original_research_and_POV|Original research and POV}}". Just because ''that particular piece'' of unsourced information was never discussed doesn't mean it's inappropriate to remove it. In fact it's the opposite; it's inappropriate to include it. The rest of the edit was exactly the kind of POV that's under discussion, and you should wait for the discussion to conclude. | |||
| :::*{{diff|diff=804620321|oldid=804522526|label=Isler is not a reliable source}}. Discussed on the talk page {{oldid2|804781343|Removal_of_the_modern_definition_section_.26_an_article_lock|again and again}}. It's a paper by an undergrad published in a predatory journal. | |||
| :::So what are we left with? "blanket rollback" of "typographical fixes" that were reverted in the course of removing the Isler paper? I apologize your typographical fixes were removed, however did you notice the large amount of discussion about each and every revert? Your claim that I {{tq|i=y|rollback edits disregarding any reasoning}} seems to be in very bad faith. Continuing to pursue these changes while they're under discussion is a huge problem. ] 09:07, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Look, the issue is not that they weren't discussed. The issue is that the discussions were post-hoc, which is in violation of general guidelines, and you are actively barring us from reimplementing changes to the article that you are unable to give sufficient reason for excluding within those discussions. One editor against several, and somehow the one is getting control of how the article looks and stays. That's the definition of disruptive editing. ] (]) 10:04, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{tq|i=y|Look, the issue is not that they weren't discussed}} don't speak for Farcaller, he just said "All the recent reverts were done without any proper discussion done in the talk page." {{tq|i=y|The issue is that the discussions were post-hoc}} That cuts both ways. You are suggesting that you should have discussed the changes before implementing them. In that case, see ], the onus for consensus is on including disputed content. {{tq|i=y|you are unable to give sufficient reason}} For which one? The Isler source? The synthesis? The Dalai Lama? The POV which was agreed on by a third party? The "typographical fixes" which are extremely minor and irrelevant to this discussion? {{tq|i=y|One editor against several}} - see ]. Just because the three (four?) of you agree that the Isler paper is fine and dandy, doesn't mean your consensus overrides Misplaced Pages policy. Additionally no such consensus was reached because you were quick to make bold edits while the mediation process was still going on! Same with the external links, as soon as someone ''merely suggested'' they're okay, someone else claimed consensus and pushed them back in the article.{{pb}}If you want consensus, please wait for the consensus process to be over, before making further changes to the article. ] 10:17, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: I don't understand why the content is disputed. I removed disputed content with the edit you used as an example because it is a controversial claim considered offensive by some and I couldn't keep staring at it in the introductory paragraph. I replaced the controversial claim with a more generic statement. This generic statement contained no controversial claims at all, consisting of generally known facts about the tulpamancy community. I was rather careful to include no extraordinary claims at all. So you removed no disputed content when you did that revert. I can cite all sorts of documents that support the claims made there, because practically all of them state the same thing. Trigger happy editing kills articles. You should have added a citation needed tag if you thought the statement needed support. (edit: oops forgot signature) ] (]) 10:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Finally we are getting to specifics. I take it you mean {{diff|diff=806351302|oldid=805194294|label=this edit}}? (Please supply diffs so I can know exactly what you're talking about.) The claim {{tq|i=y|Parallels can be found in the related concepts of spirit possession and multiplicity (psychology)}} is original research; the other information is exactly the disputed POV information which was removed previously from further down the article. Both were removed, discussed, and before any consensus could be formed you reintroduced them, worded slightly differently. Local consensus cannot "validate" the quoted original research. Broader consensus might suggest the rest is not undue weight, but for the time being, in the middle of a POV/undue-weight dispute, it's in bad faith to restore disputed material. ] 11:10, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::{{small|Unrelated, but I do agree with the original research. The tulpa phenomenon shares much with ] or ], but this cannot be incorporated into the article without a reliable source. ] 11:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| :::::::: You are very hard to argue with. I give you credit, you are a good debater. I was worried about that part, yes. Those are generally accepted claims, but not in most of the sources. I take it back. The earlier sentences were the ones I was confident about. As to the earlier sentences, are you seriously saying that you believe that modern tulpamancers have not formed an internet subculture, the concept has not evolved considerably over time, and that modern practitioners tend to spiritual interpretations of the phenomenon? | |||
| :I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. ] (]) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::: Anyhow, I know how the administrators like rules. So I'll just list a blatant rules violation: | |||
| ::That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and ], you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. ]] 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. , for example, they say: {{tpq|Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. }}. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. ] (]) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. ({{Diff2|1269544073|1}}, {{Diff2|1269540089|2}}, {{Diff2|1269335610|3}}, {{Diff2|1269126904|4}} {{Diff2|1269098577|5}}, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). ]] 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Seeing {{tq|no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism}} is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ ] (]) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. ] (]) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the ] (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." ] (]) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments {{Diff2|1269580448|demanding}} that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. ]] 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::@]: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it. | |||
| ::::: | |||
| ::::@]: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are ''obvious'' vandalism. | |||
| ::::: | |||
| ::::Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, {{tqq|You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents}} - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you ''will'' stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you ''might'' stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. ]] 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{nacc}} {{ping|PEPSI697}} A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page ], ] and ]. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at ] and ] because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.{{pb}}FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on ] that you get {{tq|stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it}} when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been ]. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you {{tq|sometimes don't understand what some words mean}}, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.{{pb}}Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- ] (]) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to ]. ]] 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. ] (]) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future === | |||
| "19:29, 22 October 2017 BrightR (talk | contribs) . . (13,625 bytes) (-111) . . (Undid revision 806551313", | |||
| :I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day. | |||
| "19:25, 22 October 2017 BrightR (talk | contribs) . . (13,625 bytes) (-111) . . (Undid revision 806550859", | |||
| :: | |||
| :1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content. | |||
| :: | |||
| :2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one. | |||
| :: | |||
| :3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly? | |||
| :: | |||
| :Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool. | |||
| ::2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection. | |||
| ::3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. ]] 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, I accept your apology. ]] 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Response and apology from PEPSI697 === | |||
| "18:43, 22 October 2017 BrightR (talk | contribs) . . (13,625 bytes) (-111) . . (Undid revision 806536404", | |||
| The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| "10:26, 22 October 2017 BrightR (talk | contribs) . . (13,536 bytes) (-3,343) . . (reverting bad faith edits." | |||
| :I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the ] or looking at the ]? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion. | |||
| :::::::: This fall foul of the three reverts rule. ] (]) 12:18, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. ] (]) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::{{tq|i=y|are you seriously saying that you believe}} No. I'm saying that the article is in a POV dispute and making bold edits while the issue is being discussed is in bad faith, the same way it's bad faith for reporting me for ] for reverting the bold edits that were made during the dispute resolution process. ] 13:31, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::: What. ] ] (]) 16:52, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::There is guidance on how to use the {{tlx|Talk header}} found on its documentation page at ] and also at ]. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in ] and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like ], ], ], ], ] for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at ] or ]. -- ] (]) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::I did. You can see that {{oldid2|801570076|Fictional characters in writing and movies considered an OR|Farcaller and I were getting along fine despite his unusual edits}} like treating a work of fiction as non-fiction and using reddit.com and tulpa.io for their original research (twice). After these misapplications and misrepresentations of references, {{oldid2|802697834|Original_research_and_POV|Seteleechete expanded the article in a way that I thought was WP:UNDUE}}. A third opinion agreed that it's undue weight. After that, when the POV editing and bad-source referencing continued—in particular, CliffracerX and yourself saying I'm "shaming a murder victim" and arguing for the Isler paper despite links showing that the journal is predatory (and Isler being an undergrad); Farcaller introducing their own synthesis; the reintroduction of the POV that was recently found by the third opinion to be WP:UNDUE; and the use of weasel words—I sought mediation, and while both sides were participating in mediation, you and Farcaller ''reintroduced the bold edits''; it's considered in bad faith to restore disputed content while dispute resolution is in progress. Were these ''all'' innocent mistakes and misunderstandings? I don't think so. ] 06:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with ], but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get ] article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent|:::::::::::}}It also appears that {{diff|diff=723998132|oldid=723969479|label=Farcaller's edits were reverted for using self-published sources and social media posts as a reference}} even before {{oldid2|801568802|Usage_of_references_to_reddit_and_social_networks|I explained to them that such self-published works cannot be used as a source for those claims}}. So Farcaller used self-published sources, were reverted by ] with "needs more legit sources", "self-published book", "]"; Farcaller used self-published sources ''{{diff|diff=prev|oldid=799203192|label=again}}'', they were reverted and had the issue explained to them in the talk page; Farcaller used self-published sources ''again'', and restored their synthesis, while dispute resolution was in progress. Hardly good-faith edits.{{pb}}Regardless, I didn't think any of that merits a discussion on AN/I. When mediation failed, I suggested ] or the ], because the issue is of reliable sources and undue weight: | |||
| {{od|5}} Perhaps an administrator could close this discussion and all its related sub-discussions now that the OP and PEPSI697 seem to have amicably resolved their issue. Maybe all that's needed here is a firm warning to PEPSI697 to try to be careful in the future, and perhaps some encouragement to try not to over use these tools if doing so risks placing them in high-stress situations where they might lose their cool, with a reminder that the community might be less understanding the next time around if they end up back at ANI for doing something similar. -- ] (]) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * The reddit tulpa sex survey cannot be used as a source | |||
| * The reddit tulpa FAQ or tulpa.io FAQ cannot be used as a source | |||
| * Isler cannot be used as a source (undergrad paper published in predatory journal) | |||
| * Synthesis of several sources cannot be used to make claims that do not appear in the sources | |||
| * Weasel words cannot be used to attribute unsourced statements from Veissière's study to the study itself, nor present them as conclusions or assertions made by the study | |||
| * Examples in popular culture need sources that discuss why ''that particular'' example is important | |||
| * Obviously, a work of fiction cannot be referenced as non-fiction | |||
| * The article in its current state cannot emphasize any further the tulpa practitioners' view on tulpas. When the article is expanded with more reliable sources, the POV of tulpa practitioners can be expanded upon. | |||
| That last point should be discussed on the NPOV noticeboard; the other points really don't need to be discussed, but could, on the RS noticeboard.{{pb}}Outside of that, there's a dispute on the proper translation of "tulpa" and a wish to split the article on that basis, as well as the removal of reliable sources that connect the concepts in order to support the split. From Mikles, which is cited in the article: {{tq|i=y|Nawang Thokmey, archivist for the University of Virginia Tibetan manuscript collection, elaborated on the equivalence of sprul pa and sprul sku, confirming that both words indicate an enlightened being’s manifestation.}} While the ''modern'' usage of "tulpa" is distinct from the Buddhist usage, in the Buddhist usage there is no distinction between "tulku", "sprul pa", or "nirmanakaya" and they are more or less interchangeable. There are with the phrase "emenation body", all of which were translated as "tulpa" by theosophists. The Misplaced Pages article does not claim that the Dalai Lama is a tulpa in the ''modern sense'', only in the Buddhist sense, and the word "tulpa" was removed at Farcaller's insistence despite being used in that context in a reliable source. It's true that "tulpa" is mostly used in the West while Buddhists use "sprul pa" or "tulku", but that is a semantic difference which is explained in the sources.{{pb}} | |||
| These disputes all lead to the same POV, and several of them lead to the reddit tulpa forum (sex survey, FAQ, Isler). The rush to reintroduce them, while the dispute resolution process is ongoing, is suspect. ] 08:46, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Suggest closure as a content dispute, off-topic for this board. Or, if we insist on discussing user conduct, I think the discussion should focus on the users pushing suspect sources, not on BrightR's good work keeping such sources out of the encyclopedia. —] (]) 17:29, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: It's definitely not a content dispute. I feel BrightR is making it look like a content dispute through guiding the conversation. However: Suggest closure with no action taken. I believe that Farcaller has taken a vacation from the wiki due to stress, as he told me he wanted to. And I cannot provide strong evidence of wrongdoing. ] (]) 17:48, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Good idea there. I agree that me, Jolielover and the others involved resolved this issue. I absolutely agree with this idea to give a firm warning on my talk page. <b>]</b> ] | ] 08:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Comment'''. While this stems from a content dispute, the initial complaint by Farcaller is: | |||
| ::Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you {{tq|absolutely agree with}} isn't really all that relevant to what the community ultimately decides to do, and continuing to post here only runs the risk of you somehow making your situation worse. -- ] (]) 10:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| "{{tq|User:BrightR doesn't want to resolve a dispute in a peaceful way.}}" Farcaller also complains of: | |||
| :::Ok, sorry. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :2) "{{tq|roll back the edits without any proper discussion done}}"; | |||
| :3) "{{tq|they do not want to discuss anything}}"; | |||
| :4) "{{tq|The user ignored the rules set by mediator}}" (at DRN); | |||
| :5) "{{tq|ignorance and abuse}}"; and | |||
| :6) "{{tq|in clear violation of the ]}}". | |||
| == Non-neutral paid editor == | |||
| To which complaint user Tulpabug immediately chimed in with "{{tq|I can confirm this}}", and an additional complaint that BrightR was trying "{{tq|to prove all us other editors wrong}}". | |||
| @] is heavily editing ] in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. ] (]) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| What is ''here'' is not a content dispute, but matters of behavior. And it gets deeper. E.g., Farcaller says the "clear violation" of civility was "{{tq|addressed towards several other editors.}}" Which, on its face, suggests that the issue is about a single misbehaving editor versus all the other editors. But take a closer look at {{userlinks|Tulpabug}}. That account was created two days ''after'' the DRN was opened; it appears to be either a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet. {{Userlinks|CliffracerX}} (involved at the DRN) is odd, and though activated two days before the DRN opened, it seems very similar to Tulpabug, and indeed, even Farcaller. All three of those users are effectively single-user accounts (on Tulpa, the DRN, and here). A closer look is very much in order. And action ''should'' be taken: to deter bad ''behavior''. ~ ] (]) 07:27, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I've got pulled in back in this discussion after being quoted the above statement. As for the original issue we are discussing here, I feel I don't care anymore. I have good faith in that the sources and references that I've provided for the article do have enough credibility to be quoted. I also believe that sources BrightR is using are inappropriate. For one, his quote above saying that "tulpa" and "tulku" are effectively a same thing goes against the primary historical source of the article itself, also "tulku" article has a different definition and is, overall, sourced properly. Still, I don't feel like discussing a neutral point if all my edits are being reverted with no discussion and discussion is sidetracked. I still think that BrightR oversteps his authority in an attempt to enforce their own POV. | |||
| :As for Tulpabug being a sockpuppet of myself, I won't even discuss that point; while I can confirm that I have discussed the edits with Tulpabug off the wikipedia, I did the same with a bunch of other wiki editors I know. I won't comment on their involvement more than stating that I think it was incorrect and abusive for BrightR to revert simple contextual edits they made to the article in question. ] (]) 08:15, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits: | |||
| ::If you had truly quit this discussion then you should have said so, struck your complaint(s), and perhaps apologized for wasting everyone's time. (If you're feeling stressed, as your buddy Tulpabug has related, then perhaps you can feel for BrightR, who has been very patiently dealing with your pettifoggery.) As it is, slinking away when the light is shined on you does ''not'' get you a pass on your own behavior, or your associate's. You accused another editor of violating incivility, which is itself incivility. | |||
| :* Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals. | |||
| :* Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity. | |||
| :* - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted. | |||
| :* Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing. | |||
| :An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably ]. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. ] (]) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::done ] (]) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@]: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly ] reasons for them. | |||
| ::#By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as ''"has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world"'' and ''"The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality"'' + ''"The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"?'' Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate ] and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a '''very''' strong statement cited to..., seemingly not even peer-reviewed. | |||
| ::#Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally ], and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. '''If''' that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, '''then''' it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it. | |||
| ::#Do you '''really''' think phrases like ''"China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments."'' are consistent with ]? '''Really?''' ''Maybe'' cutting '''all''' of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that. | |||
| ::# That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently . It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary. | |||
| ::In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably ]" seems downright ]. ] (]) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns ? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a ] and ] manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that ] is supposed to prevent. --] (]) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like ], you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't ''bad'' by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply ''not good enough'' or ''relevant enough'' for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards. | |||
| ::::Given ''this'' context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not ''obligated'' to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. ] (]) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @]'s paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @] provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/ | |||
| :My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. ] (]) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::''Adding'': Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 ] (]) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *An editor with a declared COI should ''never'' be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the {{tq|strongly discouraged}} wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --] (]) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:] So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this {{redacted|]}}? | |||
| *:Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that '''if''' is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering '''is not even seen anywhere on their front page''' - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as . The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. ] (]) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{tq|Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)}} - that would be wrong. See ]; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we ''want'' editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read ], and especially ] Having a ''perspective'' on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. ] editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then ] needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors. | |||
| ::::It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah ] editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that ''every'' edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it ''strictly'' barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --] (]) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's ''not'' the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change {{tq|strongly discouraged}} to {{tq|prohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism)}}. I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though. | |||
| ::::::Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be ''manually'' saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that {{tq|editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests}} - but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I ''need'' to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to ''this'' case, rather than a general statement. | |||
| ::::::Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | ] | ] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{tqq|So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this}} Uh, guys? Does ] mean nothing to you? - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The timing of Tulpabug's appearance (just after the DNR started) and behavior and pov (mirroring your own) certainly suggests sockpuppetry. While I would accept your denial of that – which, curiously, you have ''not'' done – your self-admitted communication with Tulpabug establishes a case for meatpuppetry. That (and other points) shows that you are ''not'' here with "]", and all of your comments (here, at the DRN, and on Talk) are thereby questionable. ~ ] (]) 23:52, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] - I think that '''sanction should be swiftly applied'''. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. ] ] 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: {{ping|InformationToKnowledge}}, '''do not''' attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with ''anyone's'' real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the ''principles of privacy'' still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. ] ] 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::Could we get an edit to ] for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. ] (]) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ] back to Andrewjlockley === | |||
| ::: Oh, I was commented on. I was thinking the same thing. My timing of showing up was odd looking. However, I actually showed up a few days before, rather than after the DRN. The claim of sock puppetry is incorrect. However, the claim of meat puppetry actually is not necessarily false. (full disclosure) Some of us shared an offsite chat together, though, I would not call Farcaller's complaining a breach of the canvassing rules. I usually edit anonymously, but it seemed inappropriate as I was invidted to a dispute resolution process. | |||
| :I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. '''However''', that does not change the fact she has been one of a '''literal handful''' of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in ] over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen. | |||
| :With that in mind, I would like to say I have '''great''' difficulty assuming ] here - not when the OP editor {{redacted|]}}, which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective '''and''' when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report. | |||
| :I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the ], the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does. | |||
| :P.S. This is '''really''' not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::With the greatest of respect @], your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @], or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether ] had a conflict of interest when they edited ], which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. ] (]) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::See ]... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself. | |||
| :::All of this is pertinent. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that {{noping|EMSmile}} has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that {{noping|Andrewjlockley}} is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. ] concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too. | |||
| ::::The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If {{noping|InformationToKnowledge}} is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be ''they both should be'' though. | |||
| ::::Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. ] (]) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. ] ] 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please reread ], and especially ]. The suggestion that being a ''published academic on a subject'' constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of ], which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::as per {{redacted|]}} is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech. | |||
| :::Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. ] (]) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to ]. ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse. | |||
| ::: | |||
| ::: | |||
| :::If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. ] (]) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of ] before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? ] (]) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for ] that arises as a result. | |||
| ::::::*With regards to ] has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the ). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner? | |||
| ::::::*AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for ''more'' SRM research in their day job {{redacted|encouragement of ]}}. Also, ] explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be ''against'' doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well? | |||
| ::::::*I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by ] on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides). | |||
| ::::::*Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). ] (]) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery or], but I'll respond anyway. | |||
| ::::::::I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm. | |||
| ::::::::Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way ] (]) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I wish to clarify the relationship between the (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG. | |||
| :::::Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was , for ten years, and is the l. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is , one of five authors of , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of . By quick count, of the other 14 authors on , one other is on the governing board, at least eight are , at least two are , and one is among . | |||
| :::::In the other direction, of ESG's , eight have signed the . | |||
| :::::The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. ] (]) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::@], would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? ] ] 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine. | |||
| ::::::For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. ] (]) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an ''oversight'' on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: After having had several days to reflect on this situation, I actually want to retract everything I said about BrightR. I can totally accept that the minor breaches of guidelines were the result of aggravation more than anything else. Sorry. ] (]) 00:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. ] ] 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that {{user|EMsmile}} has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is '''also not on'''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::... gonna ask in talk page of ] if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point ] (]) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::], I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::{{ping|Liz}} the diff of them ''placing'' it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named ], then it constitutes ] (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at ] think it would be easier to avoid. | |||
| *:::::opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases. | |||
| *:::::alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? ] (]) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on ] of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant ] and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't ] people or contacting their employers. ] <sup>]</sup>] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would greatly clarify matters if you would <s>strike through</s> (''not'' delete!) everything you are retracting. And perhaps add a short explanatory note at the ''top'' of this discussion so that anyone reviewing this can see at the start how matters now stand. ~ ] (]) 02:27, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:@] I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. ] <sup>]</sup>] 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding. | |||
| *:::Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts. | |||
| *:::BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point, | |||
| *::::the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous. | |||
| *::::AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. ] (]) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I also wanted to question this block. I'm not familiar with all the applicable[REDACTED] rules and conventions, but if I found out that eg the Heritage Foundation had been paying a contractor to edit the climate change page, I would hope that editors would 1) question the contractor and their edits, and 2) separately write to the Heritage Foundation to ask what they were up to. The latter wouldn't qualify as harassment in my book, just a sensible response to a legitimate concern about the integrity of wikipedia. | |||
| *:::::Fwiw I also don't think that EMsmile should be blocked because ultimately we don't know whether they were paid by ESG to push the ideological line of the NUA campaign. Given their long history as an editor, and the fact they conduct themselves with courtesy and decency, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. ] (]) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Does Wikimedian in Residence apply? === | |||
| :::I don't think I wasted anyone's time, because I still stand by my claim that BrightR's behavior is incorrect. Yet, as they noted, ANI might not be the best place for this particular dispute (I'm not used to sorting out WP dispute politics). | |||
| EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit[REDACTED] seems analagous to . See also ]. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no ]. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. ] (]) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? ] (]) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That said, I think I won't interact with BrightR much outside of the scope of one particular article, and I don't have any incentive to work on said article anymore. I hope we won't get into another edit war soon. | |||
| ::I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. ] (]) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :My situation is totally different to @]. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @] adjusting the page '''to favour her client''' (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. ] (]) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the ] article ]. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per ]. | |||
| ::Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding ]- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this. | |||
| ::Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. ] (]) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. ] (]) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile === | |||
| :::"all of your comments are thereby questionable" I stay behind all the points I made here, on DRN, and Talk pages. While I've been discussing this issue with a wider community, I'm not going to take the blame for other people (and definitely not brigading). If you look through the talk page, you can see that I did everything possible to discuss all the raised concerns in a calm and distinct manner, although later BrightR accused me of stalling things due to spreading discussion to numerous sections. I don't believe that it's correct behavior on BrightR side, but that point was already discussed as part of DRN. | |||
| Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. {{Noping|EMsmile}} is a paid editor who violated ] - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight ''are highly disruptive'' - and that's notwithstanding the ''paid editing.'' Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. ] (]) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::"which, curiously, you have ''not'' done". I need to note that explicitly? Yes, I don't own Tulpabug's account. ] (]) 07:43, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :'''<s>Oppose block, support ]ing EMS for almost ], ]ing AJL for aggressive interactions</s>, warning ITK for ].'''- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy. | |||
| ::::Yes. When there is reasonable showing of a possible problem you do need to address it explicitly. Otherwise there is a distinct sense of trying to avoid the point, which is (at the least) in indication of an unwillingness to resolve the matter. | |||
| :the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically ] suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group ] (]) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::From ] {{tq|WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages}} - this seems not to be the case here. ] (]) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias. | |||
| :::want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi applies] (]) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by ] - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. ] (]) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. {{U|Bluethricecreamman}} has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether {{U|EMsmile}} was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. ] (]) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. ] (]) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see ] apologize for the ] that occurred. ] (]) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*:I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. ] (]) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*'''Strong oppose''' <small>(uninvolved)</small> there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in ''simple ignorance'' (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not ]). | |||
| ::That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, '''it fails a DUCK test''', and ''looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor''. What I see is a properly disclosed ] editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. ''These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors.'' Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't ] going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :] ] 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: <small>((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above)</small> 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, ''otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month'', 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that ''AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI.'' They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including ''very questionable'' off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where ] was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT ''recent'' contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a '''grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI''' (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month ''for over 11 years'')... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either ] or ]. ] ] 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Maybe everyone gets ]s at this point and we move on? ] (]) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats. | |||
| :::::However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for '''potential civil-POV'' which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like might come off is overly whitewashing, but {{tq|China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.}} but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does <u>call into need for a closer look</u>, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. ] ] 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group | |||
| ::mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. ] (]) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Strong support'''. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, ] applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that ] only ''strongly discourages'' paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --] (]) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose and IMO unthinkable''' They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I do not see that you "{{tq|did everything possible}}" to ''resolve'' this matter. While the talk page interactions seem (to me at least) fairly calm, the real issue was in the article edit-warring. And here you missed a really important option: just stop. Yes, it is really difficult to let stand what you think are bad edits (and for as little as I know, perhaps they really were "bad" edits), but there is pretty much nothing done in article space that can't be undone. Reverting others' edits just raises the temperature, impairing discussion and delaying resolution. As to "{{tq|spreading discussion to numerous sections}}", that is a common problem (even with experienced editors), so BrightR's request that you not do that is quite reasonable (''not'' "incorrect"). And you are pretty thin-skinned to take offense at that. | |||
| *:{{tq|made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit}}: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.<br>I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. ] (] · ]) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::Personally, I am much more concerned about '''un'''declared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet ] . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. ] (]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::I meant meat puppet. ] (]) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *<s>'''Tentative oppose''' - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</s> | |||
| :*Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates''' with no opinion on indef block at this time. | |||
| From what I can see, looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the ]: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide (emphasis in the original). | |||
| ::::However, what brings me here is, first, your initial statement that "{{tq|User:BrightR doesn't want to resolve a dispute in a peaceful way.}}" I find it hard to believe that you actually know what BrightR (or any other editor) ''really'' wants. That is ''your interpretation'' of his behavior. Likewise with "{{tq|ignorance and abuse}}" and "{{tq|clear violation}}": you provided no basis for these characterizations. (And likewise for Tulpabug's imputation of trying to "{{tq|prove all us other editors wrong}}".) Your assertion of bad behavior or hurt feelings carries very little weight. You need to show (as BrightR kindly demonstrated) actual statements or behavior. | |||
| Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination: | |||
| * August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA. | |||
| * Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary. | |||
| * Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with ] , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of ]. | |||
| When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil. | |||
| EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "{{tq|And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.}}." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "{{tq|That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page.}}" Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client. | |||
| ::::Second, some of your statements ''here'' are, well, let's just call them unfortunate. (E.g.: accusing others of a "clear violation" of civility without providing evidence of same, which is itself uncivil.) And of course there is the apparent meatpuppetry, though perhaps this has been mitigated. | |||
| It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You say you are "{{tq|not used}}" to this. Yes, that is evident. Perhaps the best outcome for all of this is for you to recognize your inexperience in Misplaced Pages process and standards, and be less quick to assume you have the right end of the stick. And certainly not blame others for your own missteps. | |||
| I looked at ] last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics '''written 73% of the article''', in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing. | |||
| ::::Interacting with BrightR ''might'' actually be good, but only if you are less confrontational, and willing to try embracing what he is trying to tell you. Alternately, you might look for mentoring on how to resolve these kinds of matters. ~ ] (]) 00:12, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| <small>I added the paragraph below to my comment at around the same time as EMSmile's response below</small> | |||
| :For whatever it's worth, late as this post is, I've had this account for about a year, maybe a year and a half at this point, but never used it until recently. I'd been watching the debate between Farcaller & BrightR on how best to handle the article for a while before stepping in, as I'm hoping to see it improved for the average reader - e.g, someone who just wants to know what Modern Tulpas are so they have some idea what, say, a close friend has suddenly started going on about. I believe it's already been stated, but Tulpabug was the IP editor in the discussion, they just made an account when BrightR added them to the Dispute Resolution. | |||
| ESG, like many non-profits, probably wants to help Misplaced Pages but needs guidance on our rules. It is very common for non-profits to see Misplaced Pages as a form of social media presence and to want to leverage Misplaced Pages to build their brand. Brand-building is not where the opportunity is on Misplaced Pages. The opportunity is to improve Misplaced Pages articles in the organization's area of expertise using top-quality sources. A best outcome for all this would be for EMSmile to stop the COI edits and then work with ESG to pivot the project in a more productive direction. | |||
| ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :While most of my accusations about BrightR's 4th-pillar violations fall apart if, indeed, his violations were a side-effect of frustration (which has clearly been common in this dispute anyway), I will stand by my accusation that he's not acted in good faith on several occasions. | |||
| :Hello ], we know each other well from working on the same articles as part of ]. My client for the project under discussion here is the "Earth System Governance Foundation" (not the project (] (which is an alliance), nor the concept ] itself). So when you say that I should "immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder", then who do you mean? Strictly speaking it would be the "Earth System Governance Foundation". They don't have a Misplaced Pages article about themselves, neither do they have a website. | |||
| :On at least one occasion, he's seemingly pivoted away from legitimate arguments raised against him; for proof, I'd point to ], in which Farcaller raises a legitimate concern that BrightR seems to have fabricated a research author's name, and BrightR pivots to accusing Farcaller of using "weasel words", which, far as I can tell, doesn't nullify the argument leveled against him. On another occasion, when I raised concerns about his generally-disrespectful attitude towards Farcaller & co, alongside a few others about his arguments against their edits, he didn't acknowledge his behavioral problems, only defended his arguments. | |||
| :FWIW: If you look at the history of two articles that you mentioned: ] and ], then I think you can see that I actually made them a lot better, not worse (compared with their versions from about early July last year). I added better sources and more nuanced content, including criticism and debates. If there are still unsourced, overly promotional statements in there, then this needs to be addressed (probably best on the talk pages or with direct edits of course). | |||
| :FYI: The Earth System Governance Project is “a global research network that aims to advance knowledge at the interface between global environmental change and governance. The network connects and mobilizes scholars from the social sciences and humanities researching at local and global scales.” It is not an advocacy group. It is not my client nor employer. There is also no official/legal/formal connection between the ESG Foundation and the ESG Project. | |||
| :If a topic ban was imposed, would such a topic ban for me for ] apply only to the duration of this particular consultancy or for life? Also a topic ban from ]? Would I still be allowed to propose changes on the talk pages? And would the ban stop when my consultancy stops (likely in a few months), or be there for life? | |||
| :Just to clarify for those following this ANI: the bulk of my 60 000 edits were done in a volunteer capacity; and a certain proportion (it would be hard to estimate exactly what proportion) was done for different clients (they are mentioned on my profile page). Those clients are all mission-aligned and are not for profits or even corporations. I have no "agenda" that I am pushing. All I want to do is improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles in the area of climate change and sustainable development. A lot of my work is actually just about readability improvements. | |||
| :Also just to clarify: when I mentioned "personal attacks" in that post that you, Clayoquot, linked to, I wasn't referring to attacks ''in this thread'' but I meant AJL's aggressive/confrontational comments on my talk page, and also on the talk page of SRM. It felt like a personal attack when someone writes on my talk page "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down. I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client." ] (]) 17:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't ] or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are ], which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.{{pb}}Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact , which states that {{tq|he Earth System Governance Foundation also serves as legal representative of the Earth System Governance research community.}} This is hardly what I would call "no official/legal/formal connection". ] (] · ]) 18:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :yeah, thats clearly a COI vio. let's report to ], or something else. EMS, it does not matter you made an article better, or are unbiased... COI's destroy the appearance of neutrality. ] (]) 18:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::did report to ] ] (]) 18:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It does matter (which doesn't mean I agree that they ''do'' make the article better -- that's outside my expertise). Just a point of order: we ''do'' allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive. I understand there are some editors who will say things like "editing with a COI is not allowed", but that's flatly incorrect in policy terms. It's not in the spirit of a Wikipedian-in-Residence program, but if EMsmile claims to be a WiR it's not on their user page or in this thread, as far as I can tell (and being a WiR isn't usually an effective shield anyway -- it's more a signal that someone is knowledgeable and following best practices such as, yes, not editing about the institution that hires you). We're talking about a standard paid editor, not a WiR. If the changes were constructive and transparent, there would be no reason for action. Evidence of editing with a COI isn't relevant to a sanction except where it's not transparent or not constructive, and my understanding of this section is that multiple people take issue with the quality of EMsmile's edits (i.e. ''edits'' that fail NPOV, not merely an editor that has a COI; the relevance of highlighting a COI is that we rightly provide little-to-no leeway to COI editors to make content mistakes relevant to their COI). FWIW. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::] put this back into our court. ] (]) 13:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :* '''Oppose''' indefinate block as seems excessive given her long history of useful edits. ] (]) 14:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: Topic ban for EMsmile === | |||
| :Furthermore, I will also stand by my accusation that BrightR has not been pushing a neutral point of view, but a "scientific" PoV that he uses to discredit the community, which is...insidious, to say the least. Unfortunately, that same science-centric PoV is shared by a majority of Wikipedians, so it might appear to legitimately be neutral to many of them - I hate to admit it, but if I were a new guy on the sidelines who had no idea what was going on, I'd have probably sided with him, as he does a really good job of LOOKING neutral, even if he's not. | |||
| <small>I added this heading just now to break up a section that was getting long ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC) </small> | |||
| :::<small> The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.</small>True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its <s>direct</s> affiliates, broadly construed. This ''obviously'' include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project. This is the narrowest scope I can think of that would prevent the kind of disruption we have recently seen from you. I propose this topic ban be indefinite but appealable after 12 months. As you probably know, there's a good chance that you can avoid getting sanctioned if you commit to a voluntary restriction. I do not think at this time that you need to be banned from ''citing'' the scholarly works of ESG-affiliated people, however I strongly recommend you be very judicious and selective about the extent to which you do this. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :On that note, I'm done reiterating my arguments - I would rather not try and continue participating in this dispute, because, frankly, it's exhausting, and it took me over two days just to find a good time/place/way to respond to the apparent request for comment - I don't wanna deal with this any more, on that front, BrightR wins. My final case is this: Misplaced Pages disputes are not binary; even though BrightR's arguments against the article/editors are legitimate, it does not automatically nullify arguments leveled against him - if you want to "take action to deter bad behaviour", then you may need to figure out something for BrightR, too. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:09, October 28, 2017 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ::::Hi Clayoquot, I think your proposed topic ban is a good solution and way forward ("the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project."). I am happy to make a voluntary commitment to this restriction. I have no experience with such topic bans so I don't know the exact procedure. Do I put this on my profile page? Can you point me to an example where someone else has done this (maybe via my talk page)? | |||
| ::*{{tq|i=y|fabricated a research author's name}} I got the name wrong and {{diff|diff=804977986|oldid=804976479|label=fixed it as soon as it was pointed out to me}}. This is about on par with my "blanket rollback" of "typographical fixes". ''What is with these accusations?'' | |||
| :::: | |||
| ::*{{tq|i=y|pivots}} There was no pivot; Farcaller said I was "trying to nitpick on grammar". I explained that attributing an unattributed statement to a "classification" in a "study" is weasel-words. | |||
| ::::By the way, the paragraph about the non-use agreement that is now (after some discussion) in the section on ] (second last paragraph) is pretty good in my opinion and does not need further changes at this stage (well, except the first sentence is a bit clunky, I already pointed that out on the talk page last week). | |||
| ::*{{tq|i=y|generally-disrespectful attitude}} I extended ''a lot'' of good will. Note, for example, how another editor {{diff|diff=723998132|oldid=723969479|label=reverted}} with "needs more legit sources", "self-published book", and "WP:OR". They didn't bother discussing anything because these reverts should be uncontroversial and obvious. On the other hand, I went to the trouble to explain ''every revert'' in the talk page. | |||
| ::::] is part of the climate change topic complex and is thus, not surprisingly, a topic full of potential for debate and discussion (some people are strongly pushing for it, others are strongly warning about it), so I think further work is still needed and this article will evolve accordingly over time. Hopefully without any ANIs in the future. :-) | |||
| ::*{{tq|i=y|discredit the community}} I'm not discrediting the community, I'm discrediting the sources you provided. They cannot be used to make those claims on Misplaced Pages. With that in mind, having a paragraph or three on the community's view on tulpas amounts to ] in the article's current state. | |||
| ::::I'll make sure I am more careful in future with respect to those ''grey areas'' while editing the ] article as mentioned above by ]. I could even commit that for the next few months, I don't make any edits to the ] article directly but always go through the talk page (taking up the offer that North8000 suggested above: "I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged"). | |||
| ::This is all unrelated to whether tulpas are neurological, spiritual, ], an exercise in ], or internet ]. ] 13:19, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh and should the ] where I explain how I manage any potential COIs that can arise from working for/with clients, need improvement and tightening? Happy to be given advice on this (maybe better on my talk page than here). ] (]) 22:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::For the topic ban, you can add it to ]. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about ]. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being {{tq|a pioneer in opposing SRM research}} is sourced... to ETC Group itself). ] (] · ]) 23:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::EMsmile, thank you for being flexible on this. Just to make sure you are aware, a topic ban means you may not make any edits related to the topic in question, and this includes edits to talk pages. There is a ]. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 23:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Oh, the talk pages as well? Fine by me for the talk pages of ESGP and its founder but not for the entirety of the SRM article, I am sorry. I think this would not be justified. It's also a bit impractical. With regards to Chaotic Enby's post above I could stress that there are also secondary sources for the non-use agreement, and that I could provide them on the talk page and then leave it up to others if they want to add them to the article or not. | |||
| ::::::For background (if this helps, but it should rather be on the talk page of the SRM article, not here): The solar geoengineering non-use agreement is an academic initiative that simply believes SRM is a dangerous technology that should not be further developed, much like nuclear technology in the past and that powerful interests are funding it. That's it. That is why the topic is contentious. ] (]) 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::As I described above, I believe your edits regarding NUA at ] violated ] quite egregiously. Do you disagree? | |||
| :::::::Posting sources on a talk page is one of the milder forms of advocacy but it is still advocacy. Other editors are capable of finding the sources they want on SRM very quickly, and their searches for those sources will probably be less biased than your searches. I do not think the benefit of you sharing sources outweighs the risk of you using the talk page for COI advocacy. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 03:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I respectfully disagree. I've used the talk page at SRM since middle of last year to reach consensus with other editors in a collaborative manner, like I always do. I ''tried to'' make my points in a concise manner, even if I sometimes failed (should make talk past posts shorter in future). Sometimes they might look like a "wall of text" because I copied a paragraph or even a whole section that is under discussion across. Of course there is always room for improvement but to be banned from writing on the talk page of SRM at all is in my opinion excessive. | |||
| ::::::::Please also note that the person who started this ANI originally said that I am doing "PR" for my client. This is not true. I can expand on this further but I think this is a content question, not one about procedures. Perhaps it's better to now let that his be handled in the COI noticeboard thread here?: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250119181200-Earth_System_Governance_Project. As was pointed out above by Rhododendrites: "we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive." | |||
| ::::::::I believe my edits for the ] article have been transparent and constructive. The article is in fairly good shape now and does not include any "PR" for a certain "brand" or alike. ] (]) 09:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}}Just to be clear, a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates would not stop you from editing the SRM talk page. It would only stop you from editing the SRM talk page ''on the topic of ESG and its affiliates''. And regarding your history on the SRM talk page, I'm sorry I think you just don't get it. The length of your posts there is a ''symptom'' of the attitude that you expressed in other ways. You took the position that you, a paid COI editor, get an equal say in the editorial decision-making process. Instead of offering information and then deferring to the judgement of unconflicted editors, you repeatedly asked for the article to be made more favorable to your client. And unless you are topic banned I see no reason to think you will not do it again. ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 18:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I'd like to know what other editors think of edits like at SRM and at ] (an article written almost entirely by EMsmile while being paid by ESG). Do the uninvolved people here see these as PR or not PR? ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 19:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Alright, it's on me for not digging deep enough to see that you did fix your mistake - I'll admit I was too quick on the draw for that. Frankly, I'd have still put something in the talk page response for clarification (e.g, "thanks for letting me know, I've fixed it") before targeting Farcaller's issues - without it, it does legitimately read as though you ignored the problems raised, and pivoted straight to accusations of the problem-raiser. | |||
| :IMO if it were not for the PE aspect they look like pretty routine factual edits and I wouldn't use the term PR (by it's common meaning) for them. With the declared PE aspect I'd call it where it would be better to discuss and let them be put in by somebody else if they agree. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I wasn't referring to your willingness to discuss edits (which you do, thankfully), but rather the tone in which you explained those edits. "sigh. I'll say it again because you missed it the first time" is, simply put, rude. However, I'm willing to let it go now, as I'll take your "too annoyed to edit civilly" response on good faith. At the time, however, it was something I was concerned about, and when I confronted you about it, you ''did'' choose not to discuss it - which seemed suspiciously like a pivot. | |||
| :<small>(involved, as I've had disagreements with EMSmile before)</small>. To me, some of this doesn't quite look routine. For instance, using Biermann's website to say he's graduated with distinction (we rarely mention this), or his own website to state he's often used by the press, and namedropping in a highly-viewed article. It's not egregious, but it would raise eyebrows even without the PE aspect. ] (]) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi Femke, I've modified the ] article accordingly now (I agree with you; this needed improvement - my bad). And just to explain: I had mentioned Frank Biermann in the SRM article because he played an important role in developing the non-use agreement in the first place, and not because I wanted to "name drop" him (137 pageviews per day for the SRM article in the last year is not exactly "a highly-viewed article"). But I do understand that this could be "eyebrow raising" in the overall context of this COI discussion. | |||
| ::I would be happy to improve the Frank Biermann article further if there are still problematic aspects (or "PR"?) that I have overlooked so far. However, I think it's probably better if I give myself a voluntary restriction for this article and also for the ] article, as well as the non-use agreement component of the ] article. I have just now written about this voluntary restriction on my profile page ]. I feel bad for the page watchers and admins that this ANI has gone on for such a long time now. Maybe we could draw it to a close now with this conclusion and voluntary topic ban? (if needed this could be fine-tuned through my talk page rather than through this ANI thread?) ] (]) 23:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::We are making some progress. Your voluntary restriction, as currently worded, is quite far off from a ] or even a mainspace topic ban. A topic ban on the ESGF would stop you from, for example, adding a mention of Biermann or the ESGP to articles like ]. You have written about your client in multiple articles that are not in your voluntary restriction. | |||
| :::At the very least - whether or not you have a voluntary restriction - you need to follow the COI guideline. Your comment above suggests that you don't recognize that you should have used a ] to add Biermann's name to the SRM article. Are you willing to commit to following the entirety of the COI guideline, including the use of edit requests for any non-trivial edits that involve your clients? ] (] <nowiki>|</nowiki> ]) 02:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == A Case of Vandalism and Ignorance == | |||
| :::All that being said, I'm willing to drop my accusations of pivots; there's more info that got buried, and having seen it, I'm willing to let go of the topic, as...frankly, some of it can probably just be traced to blindness on my part, and the general overload of emotions tied up in the topic. | |||
| :::Moving onwards, your actions do seem to suggest wanting to discredit the community (e.g, "Tulpas are a form of imaginary friend"), even if that's not actually your intention. As it stands right now, there's only one sentence I can see with user-friendly info in the entire section; it's currently almost all information on the history of the concept, and on Vessiere's paper, which, while useful, isn't terribly informative to the average reader. | |||
| There is in my view a vandalism case in the[REDACTED] page ]. | |||
| :::Unfortunately, most editors seem to fall in the "it's mass hysteria" category, likely due to the strong western stigma against plurality at large, and because of it, the acceptable NPoV for the article seems to lean towards "they're just imaginary friends for adults". | |||
| '''Pls Understand whole matter''' | |||
| :::All of that being said, I suppose I'm willing to drop the POV issue as well, because it's probably not appropriate for the admin noticeboard; what is or is not neutral is subjective, a matter of opinion, and the admins really don't need to be a part of that. ] (]) 21:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| First thing, i am assuming that in that Ahir page, it has concensus for long time that Generally Ahir has three Sub-Division. 1) Yaduvanshi 2) Nandavanshi and 3) Goallavanshi , | |||
| ::::In your last paragraph you have grasped a key aspect of all this: in the end POV is (nearly always) subjective. Which is not to say it can't be resolved, but it takes a more nuanced approach than bashing one another with "facts". And to the extent that the issues at ] are about content (including POV aspects), you are right: not an appropriate topic for this noticeboard. | |||
| reason being, i check throughout history of that page that these three divison have there for many years. | |||
| But recently one editor changed all that in three edits these are following - | |||
| ::::I think what brought Farcaller here was his frustration boiling over. And I think that the frustration ''all'' of you have felt arises from ''not knowing how to handle conflict''. That the three of you have closely aligned and self-reinforcing views practically guarantees a conflict with any differing POV. That the three of you are basically inexperienced and unskilled in the standards and ways of Misplaced Pages only makes it harder, for yourselves and for the rest of us, to resolve this. All three of you might consider that you are not wholly aware of how frustrating, and even exasperating, your behavior is for more experienced editors. (We've seen too much of it.) This is why I recommend mentoring – it's the quickest way of moving past the kind of stuff you will later find embarassing. | |||
| At first stance , i like their reason of these editing and thought probably this guy has a valid reason for doing that and I ignored. | |||
| ::::If Farcaller would allow that he may have over-reacted (with regrets), and perhaps Tulpabug would strike-through what he has retracted, I think we could close this as an unfortunate but forgiveable incident. And perhaps you all could strive to be little more accomodating, even forgiving, in working these matters out at ]? ~ ] (]) 23:59, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I would prefer broadening discussion to ] or the ] where other editors can explain, for example, why a self-published survey is not a reliable source, or why focusing on how the tulpa community perceives tulpas is ] with the current state of the article. {{small|Compare "demonic possession § In the Christian Bible" which I edited: {{oldid2|807508960|In_the_Christian_Bible|before}} and {{oldid2|807650414|In_the_Christian_Bible|after}}. A demonologist might claim I'm POVing the article and removing the demonologists' perspective. What I see is removing excessive reliance on primary sources, and separating the original research from the information found in the sources.}} ] 09:31, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I myself for the first time came here for the inclusion of a word ' Prakrit' here as it is well known fact with citation | |||
| ::::::More discussion about RS and NPOV is certainly needed, but ''not'', I think, at the level requiring intervention of administrators. (Unless things get out of hand.) I believe the problems (and frustration) here arise from your colleauges blundering about because they are unfamiliar with the principles, standards, process, etc., for which mentoring would be more suitable. To immerse them in a NPOV contest when they don't know the "rules" (like how to use diffs) would be rather unfair (and from their pov, particularly unfair when they can't get satisfaction), and waste a lot of time chasing all over the landscape. By all means continue a discussion, but: not here, and not on the noticeboards. (I suggest Talk:Tulpa, as the ''substance'' of your differences is, mostly, related to content.) | |||
| Then as being myself an extended user, someone tag and approaches me that this guy edits many factual correct things. pls correct it. | |||
| ::::::And find someone willing to be present as a moderator. ~ ] (]) 21:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| then i got into this history contributions n all. | |||
| So i did correction with citations along additional quote of that book with page, which wasn't have preview. and | |||
| But that guy again revet all this and said please add citation without reading citation that i actually provided | |||
| == User RAF910 == | |||
| Then i go his talk page and told that guy to undo those edits as it has two book reference along with page and quote | |||
| To the administrator, If you agree, could you please apply the appropriate sanctions to user RAF910 for what I consider | |||
| I thought he would give me a valuable reply but instead of this, he just delete or archive my Talk and said that i should go for admin | |||
| non-collaboration, ], ], ], supposition and ]. | |||
| but i don't know who admin is here. | |||
| Now i go on editing all these again with three more book reference in consecutive three edits and and left a talk page discussion as well ] | |||
| I requested the user assume good faith, stated to the user twice, I consider the user's statements personal attacks and harassments, | |||
| but they continued. | |||
| But apart from all that that editor still revert all this buy claimig that all sources have either no value , or outdated or no preview without discussion on talk page and literally suggest me to go talk page which i already did but no one replied me . | |||
| Thank you, ] (]) 00:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| This is totally i think Vandalism Case. | |||
| Difference files showing the user statements, please click on the link then read the right side. | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Automobiles&diff=next&oldid=741118844 | |||
| :::"I given you my answer, if you don't like, then find something else to do with your free time".--RAF910 (talk) 14:09, 25 September 2016 (UTC)" | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Ruger_Mini-14&diff=next&oldid=741209444 | |||
| ::: "I given you my answer, if you don't like, then find something else to do with your free time" RAF910|talk]]) 16:19, 25 September 2016 (UTC)" | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Ruger_Mini-14&diff=next&oldid=742239645 | |||
| :::"Who knows, like a Pokémon Go player, maybe you just got caught or carried away in the moment and you don't realize that you've crossed the line."--RAF910|talk 14:38, 2 October 2016 (UTC)" | |||
| This is unbelievable that he just think, that all 4 to 5 sources are outdated and he didn't find necessary to give a valuable reference book for how these all sources are rejected by scholars. Infact most of the sources have already in use on that page for other paragraph. | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Ruger_Mini-14&diff=next&oldid=742344735 | |||
| :::my error, a repeat | |||
| that's all , hoping it need an urgent interrogation. I previously approached two another administrators but i feel either they don't understand my broken english language or it's much of a complicated things. | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Firearms&diff=prev&oldid=792120156 | |||
| :::… "CuriousMind01 has a habit of endlessly arguing his position, Wikilawyering and ignoring consensus that opposes his position. So, it will most likely be reverted again." RAF910|talk 17:48, 18 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Regards. | |||
| :::"As predicted Curiousmind is ignoring consensus and reverted the changes to the ] page, as well as the ]. He clearly does not care what any of us think, and is pretending that this discussion where an overwhelming majority of his fellow editors disagree with him is meaningless. And as usual, he is trying to intimidate anyone who opposes him by accusing them "personal attack and harassment." " RAF910 Revision as of 11:55, 24 July 2017 | |||
| <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> | |||
| :This report has the characteristics of a content dispute. I would suggest discussing on talk page, and if the editor engages in a edit war, report them to ]. ] 08:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Firearms&diff=prev&oldid=804529223 | |||
| :::"CuriousMind01 attempting the change the rules in order to override consensus at the ] page | |||
| :::My fellow editors CuriousMind01 is at it again this time at the ] page, where he is attempting the change the rules in order to override consensus and make the ] meaningless. So that he can add "Criminal use" sections to as many firearm pages as he can get away with. I encourage my fellow editor to comment there" --RAF910|talk) 16:24, 9 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :@] | |||
| # https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Council&diff=next&oldid=804562757 | |||
| : I am sure you understand whole matter here otherwise you wouldn't suggest me anything. i already left a talk on that page, if anyone don't want to talk or participate in that, then what's my fault here ? | |||
| :::"*'''OPPOSE''' CuriousMind01 is a tenacious edit warrior obsessed with adding "Criminal use" sections to firearm articles despite massive opposition. About two months ago he lost a discussion on the ] by a 10 to 1 margin. Unfortunately, he has a win at all cost mentality. So, now in typical fashion he's ignoring consensus, forum shopping, wikilawyering, and gaming the system. He even attempted to unilaterally make this change himself, because he believes that silence equals consensus. He will most likely accuse me of personal attacks and harassment again for daring oppose him and pointing at his questionable behavior, a normal intimidation tactic of his. I will inform my fellow ] members that he attempting to override consensus and make the Project meaningless." --] (]) 16:13, 9 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :It's not a content dispute, just a totally biasness because there are bunches of scholar book evidences they reject orally and don't provide any support for there rejection. | |||
| :so instead of giving me lecture, why you don't involve there ? | |||
| :such a irresponsible replied , i got in WP:AN/I here , i wasn't expect that. | |||
| :Anyways. | |||
| :Thanks for reply. | |||
| :Regards. ] (]) 05:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::That's a very rude reply, ]. Fantastic Mr. Fox took a few minutes of his time to respond to your query here and you insult them. At this rate, I doubt you'll get any more feedback from other editors to address your problem. This is a collaborative editing project and it's better to make allies rather than drive people away. We are all volunteers here and no one is obligated to respond to you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] , I apologise if anyone feel that a rude reply. But in my experience, editor don't read long incident probelm i guess. they either get bored or don't try to read. They try to suggest to go talk page, but here things get complicated. | |||
| :::Some people tag me to look that page, but I can't do anything as here people do reply either very late or do reply to go to talk page and talk page don't reply, again the circle problem. | |||
| :::But anyways. i did again leave a talk page right know. | |||
| :::Thanks for your response for letting know me that i was being rude. but it was more of a frustration of my side. | |||
| :::i will keep in mind in future. | |||
| :::Much Regards ] (]) 08:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ], ] and blatant tampering of sources == | |||
| :::Another editor comment to the above: | |||
| ::::Please don't inject personality-based criticism and supposition/prediction; it's not helpful... See ]. …. SMcCandlish 9 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{User|202.57.44.130}} has been mass reverted for repeated reasons such as this probable ] and ] and lying on their sources and edit summary (See , , and (repeated in multiple summaries regarding entries to the ]) and making multiple canned ] statements to scare off users trying to rv them . I also have reason to suspect that a COI may also be possible. ] (]) 14:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| User notified https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:RAF910&diff=prev&oldid=806595798 ] (]) 00:52, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I haven't looked into their use of sources but I posted them a warning message about threatening to get other editors blocked if they edit certain articles. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 17:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::They have been deliberately mislabelling urls from LionhearTV, a local blog that is on the verge of being declared unreliable, as coming from ]. See ] for further info. ] (]) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Basile Morin, Arionstar and FPC == | |||
| *Most of these are a year old. I don't see harassment or personal attacks. I'm curious to hear if RAF910 has anything to offer here. ] (]) 02:09, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop | |||
| | result = Everyone has cooled down and agreed to stop with the ]. ] (]/]) 16:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::], could you please see recheck, I showed the text below the above links, which I consider rudeness and false aspersions: like obsession, edit warring, ignoring consensus, wikilayering,forum shopping, etc. The statements are all in the past 13 months. Please allow me several days to respond to the comments below. Many result from levels of consensus and local consensus does not override community consensus. (sorry, add the text lost the numbering) Thank you.] (]) 14:55, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| ::::Oh...I forgot to mention that he is incredibly argumentative and constantly ]. See above statement.--] (]) 16:28, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| This is nothing more than a case of ]. CuriousMind01 is obsessed with adding "Criminal use" sections to Firearms articles, against massive opposition. He is also very upset that I’ve pointed out that he ignoring consensus and that he is continuously ]. | |||
| His most recent activity’s, started in July of this year, when he lost a discussion on the “Criminal use” topic at the WikiProject firearms talk page by a 10 to 1 margin. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Firearms&oldid=803378307 | |||
| On August 15th, he started ] at the WikiProject council talk page with this edit https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Council&type=revision&diff=795679904&oldid=793877524. | |||
| His intention is to overturn the 10 to 1 consensus against him on the WikiProject firearms talk page. | |||
| However, nobody thought enough about it to even respond. So, on September 27th he unilaterally made the change himself, with this edit, https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Council/Guide&diff=prev&oldid=802568241 which I reverted. | |||
| On October 9th he continued ] and started a new and separate RFC discussion at the WikiProject council talk page on the very same subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Council&type=revision&diff=804434393&oldid=803706627 | |||
| He also went ] at the Misplaced Pages Village pump page with this edit. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)&diff=prev&oldid=804435002 | |||
| Please note, that he is currently losing the RFC discussion at the WikiProject council talk page, again by a 10 to 1 margin. | |||
| I am not the only one to question his behavior. Other editors, have also pointed out that CuriousMind01 is ignoring consensus and forum shopping at the WikiProject council talk page discussion. | |||
| *”Oppose this end run around the consensus at the project. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:51, 10 October 2017 (UTC)” | |||
| *”Oppose This is a perfect example of forum shopping. What’s next an appeal to Jimbo? --Limpscash (talk) 04:16, 19 October 2017 (UTC)” | |||
| CuriousMind01 has an a ]. If he cannot respect two separate discussions, with 10 to 1 consensuses against him, then he doesn’t belong here. Therefore, I recommend that he be indefinitely blocked. If not, he will waste more of our time on another page.--] (]) 13:57, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *RAF, this is helpful (though please use fewer paragraphs), but we need more, from more editors, to issue a block per NOTHERE or whatever. ] (]) 15:13, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *CuriousMinds has battled this issue of including criminal use many times, refusing to accept consensus. Like this RfC result (which had quite a few participants) , then again in another discussion at the same article . Continually forum shopping. ] (]) 18:57, 23 October | |||
| *If you review ] edit history, he seems obsessed with adding "Criminal use" sections to Firearms, Automotive, and other articles. As other editors have noted, he is a very aggressive editor and will endlessly argue his position against overwhelming consensus. I agree with RAF, that he is ignoring consensus and ]. He is also ] on the ] article, with these edits . He is also Wikilawyering with these edits , where he basically claims that his fellow editors cannot make changes to the ] article. In essence, that he is right and everybody else is wrong. He has launched personal attack with this edit . My experience with ] left such a bad taste in my mouth that I stopped editing. Please see "Advice" discussion at ]. I also recommend that he be indefinitely blocked.--] (]) 03:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] in brief response: I think the comments above may originate from users not knowing some Misplaced Pages rules. | |||
| Like the Recent Example cited above: | |||
| WikiProjects Firearm project took an internal vote to remove criminal use from gun articles then amended their advice page. I voted no as a violation of ]. Then users RAF910 and Limpscash twice tried to delete community/RFC consensus, criminal use text from 2 articles ], ], which I and another editor twice restored, trying to explain in edit summaries and ] that | |||
| "]" is not binding. | |||
| Having seen wikiprojects incorrectly try to impose their criteria on articles, I thought it would be helpful to add an additional criteria educational example to the Wikiproject "such as" examples, not a rule change. Using proper WP steps, talk page, be bold, RFC, commenters explained my example was not needed, because wikiproject rules already exist, like: | |||
| * “] are not rule-making organizations, nor can they assert ownership of articles within a specific topic area. WikiProjects have no special rights or privileges compared to other editors and may not impose their preferences on articles.” | |||
| * | |||
| * "]: "projects have wrongly used these pages as a means of asserting ownership over articles within their scope,". "and that other editors..get no say.."because of a "consensus" within the project. An advice page written by several participants of a project is a "]" that is no more binding on editors than material written by any single individual editor. Any advice page that has not been formally approved by the community through the ] process has the actual status of an optional essay." | |||
| * | |||
| * ]]] "among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. ...WikiProject advice pages,...have not formally been approved by the community through the policy and guideline proposal process, thus have no more status than an essay." | |||
| Thank you,] (]) 16:11, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Wait--if all else fails you claim the others don't know policy? BTW all y'all REALLY need to learn how to do proper indentation and paragraphing--these sections are clear as mud, esp. when editors start citing other editors. Anyway, I wish y'all had pinged me when that proposal came up (and RAF, I see , not 10 to 1--ansh666 was also an "oppose", and I see only 8 "support"s, but that's by the by. Again, anyway, CuriousMind, "Local consensus" etc, sure, but if you're the only one adding some section that others oppose, you're still guilty of editing against consensus. ] (]) 16:26, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think this is a far more than ''local'' consensus. Misplaced Pages articles about things generally do not center on, or even touch much on, the externalities of their use or abuse. ] (]) 20:42, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Persistent ]/] issues with SerM12345 == | |||
| I was going to let this go as there has been no recent (within the past two days) hounding, until a comment by {{user|Basile Morin}} led me straight here. | |||
| *{{user links|SerM12345}} | |||
| *{{article links|List of terrorist incidents in October 2017}} | |||
| Since at least January 3, I have seen a general pattern of ] on the ] board involving accusations that {{user|ArionStar}} has engaged in sockpuppetry on Wikimedia Commons, something I find only of minimal relevance with FPCs. I have counted <i>at least</i> three times where a user ({{user|Charlesjsharp}}) has copy-and-pasted the following message on a nomination ArionStar has started: | |||
| SerM12345 has a persistent habit of adding entries to ] where the sources do not support their inclusion. Recent examples are: , , , , . This user was warned on their user talk page repeatedly by myself, {{U|DrKay}}, {{U|DeFacto}}, {{U|Doug Weller}}, and {{U|MonsterHunter32}}. They never have ] with any other users on talk pages and has only once commented on an article talk page to ask why the article was protected (). | |||
| * '''Comment''' I notify other voters that the nominator has been banned on Commons and has been insulting on this page towards another user. (at ], ] and ]) | |||
| Not only is this failing to ], it's also completely irrelevant to a process involving images. It's sort of like telling people to oppose an FAC because they haven't given good reviews. I would have left this here, until another user (Basile Morin), engaged in Wikihounding, decided to directly attack me and ArionStar instead of constructively responding to my concerns. What really damns me is , in full. I was struck with the flu, so was unable to respond, but I think I'll just bring it directly here, seeing how this isn't the first time this has happened: | |||
| {{quote|text=There is no "target" as you imagine, and each of us would like to be able to calmly evaluate new quality nominations as we are supposed to see in this section. Rather than being asphyxiated by an avalanche of weak candidates, all precipitated by the uncontrolled frenzy of a hyper-impulsive participant. Furthermore, no user is obliged to come and provoke conflicts via illegitimate puppets, and even less so if you don't want us to be interested in you. You are , EF5, according to your own words. Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months (], ], ]...), and you also use . Some of your ] are orphans and you're probably not the "author" of the . Above, you wrongly mention a "retaliatory opposing" when if that had been Charles' intention, he could have voted "oppose per JayCubby" to bring down this nomination even faster. But ] is usually an excellent reviewer, also a photographer and nominator, regular on ] and ], with ] and 303 on Misplaced Pages. I think the idea he expresses is mainly a serious fed-up feeling, to see, once again, a deluge of nominations coming from the same overexcited account. The fact is that ArionStar is here only because he was banned from Commons, unfortunately that is the sad reality. However, the goal is not to repeat here the same mistakes as those made there. Note also that, just after , ArionStar turns a deaf ear and , as if he were absolutely seeking his sanction. Obtuse insistence is bound to annoy even the calmest and most patient people. It is obvious that if you want to progress and maintain good relationships with others, you must first be able to become aware of your mistakes, and the reasons for your failures. There is no hunt against ArionStar, but no "special indulgence" either. In my opinion, Charles has mainly tried a kind of moderately subtle "]" aimed at the participant himself, who would do better to listen once and for all to the good advice, rather than ignoring it and making fun of others. This , well before he was banned. Kind regards -- Basile Morin}} | |||
| I mean, what kind of comment is this? Whatever it is, it needs to stop. "Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months" is just cherry-picking things I've done, with no actual regard to relevance. I really don't think a "talk" is going to do much here (which I've already tried), so I'm bringing it here.<span id="EF5:1737221536794:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators'_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> — ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</span> | |||
| :If Charles and Basile don't commit to cutting it out, I think one way IBANs are definitely in order here. ] (]/]) 18:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :(ec) ], this is a confusing report to try to sort out although Voorts seems to be able to follow things here. Are you the only commenter here or is some of this content from another editor who didn't leave their signature? If this entire complaint is all from you can you identify, in one sentence, which editor you are complaining about (since several are mentioned here), whether or not you have notified them of this report and what exactly your "charge" is against them? Again, give the heart of your complaint in ONE sentence although you may include diffs. Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, I am the only filer. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::@]: As I understand the report, and from looking at the diffs, Charles and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that Arion is socking/engaging in harassment/vandalism at Commons. Basile and Charles have both been around for a long time and should know better. ] (]/]) 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you, ], for the summation. I am completely ignorant of what is going on at the Commons. It's enough for me to keep up with what's happening on this Wikimedia project of which I only barely succeed at, much less know who is socking or who is blocked on other projects. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::''"and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that"'' => No, we did not vote here. -- ] (]) 20:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The intent was clearly to cast aspersions on the entire nomination, even if you didn't use a bolded oppose. ] (]/]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Arionstar was indeed indeffed on Commons and has socked there, creating some bad blood among some FPC regulars. For better or worse, however, we regard the projects as independent. In fact, demonstrating constructive behavior on a different project is often a good strategy to appeal a block. As Arionstar continued socking at Commons, I don't think that's the goal, but the point stands that anyone who wishes to see Arionstar sanctioned here would need to open a thread on this board with diffs showing bad behavior ''here'' (or, at minimum, bad behavior elsewhere that's ''directly'' connected to conflicts here, such as harassing a user on Commons because of a dispute here). Absent consensus otherwise, Arionstar is AFAIK in good standing on enwp. | |||
| :Doesn't mean anyone's obliged to support his nominations, of course, and I don't blame the Commons regulars from not doing so. The only problem would be an opposition here solely due to behavior there, which (as much as I'm critical of enwp's FPC criteria) is probably not a valid reason for opposition. That said, I don't see that anyone has done that? At ], Charles posted a comment and did not vote. Basile opposed, but provided clear reasons why, which didn't center on behavioral issues. Just not sure what there is to do here. Maybe this bit of advice will suffice: (a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp. — <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 18:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is ] against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm learning from my mistakes and ]. The FP guidelines here are different but I'm understanding them day after day. ] (]) 18:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === ArionStar's disruptions === | |||
| I have asked him to source his edits properly and not add his own claims. I would like to discuss it, but he seems least interested in responding. ] (]) 21:42, 23 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| (First, to take into account at the origin of this report by EF5, an annoyance ''perhaps'' caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination: ].) | |||
| :He hasn't edited for a couple of days, so we'll need to wait to see what happens when he returns to editing. ] ] 16:06, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Unfortunately, that seems to be a common theme... Gianluigi02 and Krissmethod... ] ] 18:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{Yo|Doug Weller}} editing has but still no communication. They edited just a few minutes ago so I'd give them a bit longer I guess but I'm not optimistic ] ] 06:10, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Now, concerning ArionStar: | |||
| {{U|Doug Weller}} or other admins, the with sources that don't support list entries. Still no communication. 3 of the 4 entries in the previous link aren't supported by source. | |||
| *{{userlinks|ArionStar}} | |||
| :Requesting block to stop this disruption. ] ] 07:55, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| See: | |||
| #] | |||
| #] (now ]) | |||
| #] (clear attack against me) | |||
| My talk page also was "attacked" with (, , , , ). | |||
| ::Yes I noticed this half an hour ago while watching tv and using my exercise bike. Will do later. ] ] 08:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ]. These , with left to the user (), | |||
| == Joppa Chong and Center for Family and Human Rights == | |||
| before being by ArionStar as if my talk page was a battleground. | |||
| '''More worrying''', A few days ago '''the same person used sockpuppets''' to pollute my account on Commons: | |||
| #] | |||
| #]. | |||
| Exhausting. There have been a lot of , on Commons. Best regards -- ] (]) 19:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Regarding me being “mad about my failed nom”, that is casting serious ]. I engaged because I saw what looked like uncivil behavior, '''not''' because one of my nominations failed. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] acts disruptively on ]. In 2015 they were banned for 24 hours due to edit warring on that page over mentioning that the ] describes the article subject as a hate group (). And more recently they've been edit-warring to remove references to the catholic church from the page (]). And they've also said "... as the promotion of an LGBT agenda within Misplaced Pages by some editors is an open secret" which indicates that they're inherently biassed on this topic, in favor of anti-LGBT hate groups. | |||
| ::Thanks for your ''subjective'' opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- ] (]) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@]: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. ] (]/]) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::. Regards -- ] (]) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's ] which is not on. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Thank you for your suggestion. Last time , it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::] about ] doesn't help your case when you are ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Thank you very much for your links. I will try to read these two "essays" in peace and quiet, as well as this "information page". I already wrote a below. All the best -- ] (]) 05:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at ]. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Blocking them for 24 hours didn't fix the disruptive behavior before. Would a topic ban be appropriate? --] (]) 14:55, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::"Attacks, attacks, he attacked"… I'll keep my silence because I try… (It's sad to see when someone "loses the line" after a "ceasefire request") | |||
| :::P.S.: " annoyance ''perhaps'' caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination"… ''kkkkkkk'' (laughs in Brazilian Portuguese). ] (]) 23:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::], I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{Agree}} Thanks. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''On reflection''' | |||
| :: That block ''was'' a while ago. Maybe another would jog their memory. ] (]) 17:48, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Thank you. | |||
| :The last edit that Joppa Chong made to ] was on October 12, about two weeks ago. He's been discussing the dispute on the article's talk page ever since (albeit the discussion looks to have drifted from being about the ''content'' and toward being about ''each other''). ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 12:18, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I would like to apologize to user ] if I may have made one or more errors of judgment regarding them. | |||
| ::But now . That said I'm not sure this single edit is a worry considering that the edit warring seems to have died down since earlier in the month. As said, there seems to be discussion on the article talk page. Not without problems, but I'm not sure it's the level that would need any sort of administrative attention. It seems to be that it would instead be helpful to use some form of ], especially since I'm only seeing 2 editors involved in it. ] (]) 12:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I do not know this user very well, and having noticed that they often change their name, use multiple accounts, and , I may have indeed become too defensive. Since they are apparently very young ], I may have made some wrong assumptions of behavior. It may also be the fatigue generated by ]. So all the better if this person (EF5) is reliable and well-intentioned. I don't blame them for anything, and I'm rather looking forward to getting back to my usual activities. | |||
| I agree with and thank him for his effort to calm things down: | |||
| == User Aggiefan47 == | |||
| {{xt|"(a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp."}} | |||
| I understand that my approach was not the most tactful, sorry. I can nevertheless prove that the approach was 100% healthy and intended to help Misplaced Pages. | |||
| I have absolutely no problem with ArionStar contributing constructively to the development of the encyclopedia (if that is really his intention). However, I would also like to draw attention to the fact that from another user is in my humble opinion far from being as the other imagines. This is perhaps a most important point. | |||
| {{atop|{{nac}} {{u|Aggiefan47}} indef blocked by {{u|A Train}} ] (], ]) 01:21, 30 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| The last thing I claim is the need for ArionStar to immediately and permanently stop using unproductive puppets. Neither elsewhere nor here. See ] '''"Good hand" and "bad hand" accounts'''. | |||
| The assumption of good faith is becoming harder and harder to maintain when it comes to ]. Their edits have always been erratic, but until recently, some of them were good contributions to ]. The other edits are reverted not long after they are made, usually by myself, {{ping|Yankees10}}, {{ping|Spanneraol}}, {{ping|Muboshgu}}, {{ping|EricEnfermero}}, and others. Aggiefan47 often changes their pattern of edits, removing something from pages one day and then adding it to others the next day. They have been asked to explain themselves in the past, and usually delete the talk page posts not long after they're made. They've been warned several times in the past, and those too are deleted. On October 23, Aggiefan47 removed all sources from , , and without explanation. On the 25th, they removed all sourcing from , , , , , and . Interspersed in those are several edits to player pages that removed some sourcing. Each of the edits is unexplained ("edited player biography" isn't an explanation for why sourcing was removed). | |||
| I noticed that after self-imposing a "wikibreak" they reverted another user to my own talk page, thus adding to the annoying noise. I would therefore be grateful if ArionStar would never again try to get in touch through this channel. I need peace and concentration. | |||
| In my opinion, Aggiefan47 has become a thorn in the side of WP:BASEBALL (and Misplaced Pages as a whole) that can no longer be ignored or tolerated. Their useful edits are not frequent enough to warrant them being able to contribute to the project, and their unwillingness to explain themselves leads me to believe that they are ]. ] <small>(] • ]) </small> 17:12, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't have much to add to that, other than that I don't believe Aggiefan47 has ever engaged in talk page discussion. – ] (]) 17:29, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Finally, I am happy, personally, to make an effort of discretion. I have accepted the criticisms that have been addressed to me, and sincerely consider them constructive. Thank you to each and every one of you. I wish you all fruitful research and rich contributions on Misplaced Pages. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, a huge percentage of the edits don't affect the article output (taking out extra spaces from the infobox fields, putting extra spaces back in the infobox fields, changing the BDA template from an uppercase B to lowercase, moving the DOB/place of birth fields up or down, etc), but the editor also has a tendency to introduce mistakes, so the constant pointless tinkering creates headaches when we're trying to review the edits for accuracy. Here's a recent example similar to what User:Trut-h-urts_man describes. The user edited ] on . Among other things, the user added a piped link to ]. Only , he is taking out that RBI piped link on the same article. Depending on how bored this editor gets, this stuff could go on endlessly if we let it. He is definitely not a talk page guy; he has reached out to me once via email to tell me to stop reverting his edits, but even after I explained the issues, he didn't alter his editing behavior. ] (]) 18:43, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I |
:In addition, I'll ignore any report about me coming from you here on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 04:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :{{u|Canterbury Tail}}, that is because the user messages from other users who are attempting to engage. Look at the talk page history. | |||
| :::Apologies. I really should know better and should have checked that. Sorry I'm at work stuck on another late night due to production failure and on Wiki to keep me awake. ] ] 00:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I concur that Aggies' behaviour is problematic and I have great sympathy with the editors who have been trying to reason with a completely uncommunicative editor for so long. Unless anyone objects, I will apply an indef block to Aggies for the sole purpose of getting their attention. I will lift the block immediately upon Aggies agreeing to start using talk pages and to meaningfully collaborate with other editors. ]<sup>'']''</sup> 23:26, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you, A Train. I've about had it with this user after a few years of this nonsense.--] 23:37, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Okay, Aggiefan has been given . Let's see what happens. ]<sup>'']''</sup> 23:40, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::A Train - that sounds like a reasonable and appropriate way to stress the importance of collaboration to the user. Can I ask what the plan would be if they later resume their disruptive edits? Is this a "three strikes, you're out" situation of gradually increasing blocks or is this their "last chance"? I would prefer the latter, mostly because I don't presently believe they are willing to collaborate or adhere to the guidelines already in place. ] <small>(] • ]) </small> 23:43, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, this is why I suggested an ANI report this morning at AIV: now there's a lot of sunshine on this problem. If Aggies continues to be completely uncommunicative after this remedy has been attempted, you will have taken every reasonable step. You guys can hit me up in that event and I'll apply an indef block, with the community's support. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. ]<sup>'']''</sup> 23:56, 26 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm sorry to report that Aggiefan47's reaction to all this was to remove talk page messages imploring him/her to start communicating, without comment. I have adjusted the block to remove Aggiefan's talk page editing privileges and they will now have to use UTRS if they are so inclined. ]<sup>'']''</sup> 10:07, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
| == |
== Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza == | ||
| *{{articlelinks|Aubrey Plaza}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Religião, Política e Futebol}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}} | |||
| {{u|Religião, Política e Futebol}} and {{u|ZanderAlbatraz1145}} have both been edit warring at ] over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration. | |||
| Someone using IP ] is removing text from ] while threatening legal action if it's restored. I don't have an opinion about the material being removed. ] (]) 00:00, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Blocked for the legal threats. ] (]) 00:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just a quick update, after the block ] reappeared making similar threats. They were blocked and the page semi-protected by {{noping|Oshwah}}. Per ], someone seems to be making sure everything there is well sourced and complies with BLP. (Eventually reverting to a version before the mysterious IPs appeared.) ] (]) 14:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Given the IP's history of edits shows they were editing the same article a month ago, and given that the IP is static , I think we can expect this IP to try again. I'll add it to my watchlist. I hope others do as well. --] (]) 15:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm keeping an eye on it also. The article is a lot better than it was but is still a bit jumbled chronologically. ]&] 09:15, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. ] (]) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Thejoebloggsblog behaviour at ] == | |||
| :Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. ] (]) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. ] (]) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at ], not here. ] (]) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|Sundayclose}} Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says, {{tq|This complaint is not about the content directly}}. We are not discussing the content you're disputing, but it would be great if you did try to gain some consensus at the article talkpage. ] (]) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Though I honestly thought I'd waited too long to take further steps to protect a highly-viewed article, fair enough. PP has helped over the weekend: while IMO the history is easy enough to follow in terms of seeing what would have been needed for immediate preventative/protective measures, yes it is a bit more complicated. Full post to follow. ] (]) 12:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *There have been numerous edits to the ] article since 4 January, when it was announced her husband had died, later declared a suicide. Most of the edits revolve around adding this information and how to describe her husband in the rest of the article. Most seem to be well-intentioned, don't all meet best practice for BLP editing, but generally can be resolved with corrective edits. | |||
| This is a bit two fold, but it is basically a combination of {{ping|Thejoebloggsblog}} edit warring and acting in an uncivil manner towards another user. I'm also going to ping {{ping|TripleRoryFan}} and {{ping|Jono52795}} as they have been involved too. | |||
| *Separately, since 29 December, some users have been attempting to add a lot of '''information about the BLP subject's ethnic background and non-notable extended family'''. | |||
| **The first edit to add this information was on 29 December by IP {{u|94.63.205.236}}. This was bot-reverted for the bad source. The same IP reinstated the edit moments later. Diffs: | |||
| **{{ping|Sundayclose}} Then reverted the edit later that day, again with sourcing concerns. Diff: Sundayclose also warned the IP about BLP, and the IP went dormant. | |||
| **During all the editing on 4 January, another IP, {{u|74.12.250.57}}, changed some of this info (describing Ashkenazi Jewish as Native American) for probably malicious reasons: - while another, {{u|2600:1000:b107:a865:e028:5f95:de45:c803}}, removed some of the ethnic background info with a strange edit reason ("Updated"): | |||
| **The article was then confirmed-protected for two days. | |||
| **On 10 January, {{ping|Religião, Política e Futebol}} made two edits (that for content purposes we will consider as one) to reinstate, and further expand upon, the information on family and ethnic background. Edits: | |||
| **Another IP, {{u|2a00:23c6:ed85:7d01:3d25:a335:96f5:4b40}}, undid the edits on 10 January, again with sourcing and BLP concerns. Diff: | |||
| **On 14 January, Religião reinstates their version without explanation. Diff: | |||
| **On 15 January, I (Kingsif), undid this with the same source/BLP concerns. I also mention more specifically what could be BLP issues, and recommend using the talkpage to discuss the edit. Diff: | |||
| **Also on 15 January, Religião adds the information back. In their edit reason, they seem to acknowledge the BLP specifics I mentioned but then claim that their content is not an issue. They also say that they don't need to discuss. Diff: | |||
| **On 16 January, I (Kingsif), again remove the information. I address the content and sourcing concerns more forcefully, and the need for discussion. I warn Religião that their behaviour in the circumstances constitutes edit warring. Diff: | |||
| **Also on 16 January, Religião once again added back the content. Their edit reason asked why they can't add personal information on non-notable people: a lack of knowledge of BIO policy, but unwillingness to do anything about that instead of edit-war. Diff: | |||
| **I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection. | |||
| *In regards to '''the mention of Baena's suicide''', this was first added shortly after it was first reported on 4 January. | |||
| **{{ping|DiaMali}} did much of the immediate updating, including adding and removing this before it was confirmed. Diff: | |||
| **Over the next two days, the mention was removed and reinstated by various other users based on industry sources/lack of confirmation. E.g.: , , | |||
| **The edit-warring really began on 6 January, when {{ping|Ibeaa}} removed the mention. At this point, the suicide had been confirmed, and Ibeaa did not provide a reason. Possibly worth noting is that Ibeaa's edit was made the exact minute the article's protection was removed. Diff: | |||
| **On 7 January, IP {{u|2804:d41:cb23:cc00:f4ae:3bc:747e:e196}} adds it back. Diff: Also on 7 January, Ibeaa removed it and the reference without explanation. Diff: | |||
| **The next user to re-add the info was {{ping|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}, who also did not use an edit reason, on 9 January. Diff: | |||
| **The IP {{u|2800:355:9:f9f3:3059:222e:2783:93b8}} removed it, without an edit reason, on 11 January. Diff: | |||
| **{{ping|Sundayclose}} reverted the IP on the same day. Diff: | |||
| **Ibeaa then removed the mention again, also on 11 January. Diff: | |||
| **Zander then adds it back on 13 January, still without a reason. Not massively relevant, but Zander used the deprecated phrasing {{tq|committed suicide}} for the first time in this edit, which IP {{u|50.71.82.63}} fixed. Diff: | |||
| **Between 13 and the morning (GMT) of 15 January, Zander added and Ibeaa removed the information ''five times each'', no edit reasons in sight. | |||
| ***Zander: (above 1), , , , | |||
| ***Ibeaa: , , , , | |||
| **I (Kingsif) removed it on 15 January, tucked into the BLP edit, to try and stop the pair from edit warring by saying it should also be discussed. I should have probably done them as separate edits. Diff: | |||
| **Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 15 January. Diff: | |||
| **On 16 January, I again removed it as part of the larger edit. I made a clearer separation in this edit reason, to explain that because inclusion is (clearly) contentious, it should be discussed. Diff: | |||
| **Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 16 January. Diff: | |||
| **Ibeaa removes it, without a reason, also on 16 January. Diff: | |||
| **Sundayclose added it back on 16 January, with the explanation that it is {{tq|accurate and properly sourced}}. FWIW, while accurate, it was sourced to People magazine, which ten days earlier was not accepted as a suitable source for the same information at the ] article. Recently-deceased needs more than a celebrity magazine that actually says "unconfirmed but believed". More pressing, I would expect Sundayclose to have pushed for discussion as the inclusion was clearly contentious. Diff: | |||
| **Ibeaa then removed again on 16 January, with the reason that they didn't know why they were still pursuing the edit war. I would have honestly interpreted that to mean they weren't going to continue, but anyway. Diff: | |||
| **Ibeaa's conduct was already reported here at ANI by Sundayclose, on 17 January, and they were blocked quickly. ]. | |||
| ***I don't know and won't speculate as to why Sundayclose did not also report Zander at this time. | |||
| **After Ibeaa is blocked, Zander continues their side of the edit war on 17 January, still without providing an edit reason. Diff: | |||
| **I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection. | |||
| **Zander then adds the information back, without starting a discussion, before page protection is applied. They appear to have seen this ANI report, as they included an edit reason. Included in the edit reason is that it didn't seem {{tq|vital enough}} to explain themselves, which I can't accept in good faith given they were going back-and-forth directly with Ibeaa and had been told to discuss since the inclusion had proven contentious. Diff: | |||
| *] (]) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| This issue started in September when Thejoebloggsblog content by Jono52795 without an edit summary. There was then a few days of back and forth , , , , , . I came across the issue when Thejoebloggsblog used the edit summary "All necessary information included. No need for a crows fan in 'TripleRoryFan' to start an edit war" (to give a bit of a back story for those who may not know, the ] and ] are rivals in the league). I felt this was an unnecessary edit summary and not assuming ], so I left a comment on Thejoebloggsblog's talk page about . Jono52795 started a discussion at ], which TripleRoryFan joined in but Thejoebloggsblog did not. | |||
| :This is a lot of data. But it seems like if edit-warring is the problem, a complaint filed at ] or a request for page protection at ] would be more suitable than ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Fast forward to yesterday, Thejoebloggsblog removed the content again without an edit summary or any discussion at the talk page. There were then a few attempts to try and get Thejoebloggsblog to discuss the issue at the talk page , (with about edit warring), (with template at user talk page). Attempts to get Thejoebloggsblog to discuss were answered with edit summaries questioning and motives and once again not assuming good faith towards TripleRoryFan with the edit summary "reversing edit of known Crows fan who is starting an edit war. He should be blocked from editing page". Since TripleRoryFan pinged Thejoebloggsblog at the talkpage and used a talkback on the user talkpage, Thejoebloggsblog has continued to edit the section, so I'd say it's pretty safe to say Thejoebloggsblog has ignored this and is not willing to engage in any discussion to try and reach a resolution. | |||
| == Repeated vandalism by IP 27.125.159.200 on spaceflight related pages. == | |||
| Apart from the blatant edit warring by Thejoebloggsblog by reverting with either no edit summary or baseless edit summaries, and refusing to engage in any sort of discussion, I thought I'd report the issue here rather than ] due to the edit summaries towards TripleRoryFan. I feel that these are in violation of ] as there has been zero evidence that TripleRoryFan has ulterior motives and I don't think I've ever seen them edit in a way that could be construed as vandalism, in addition, they have even done a good job of creating a season page for Port Adelaide at ] so it doesn't make sense they'd vandalise the main page. I feel Thejoebloggsblog edit summaries border on ] towards TripleRoryFan and are nonsensical, because supporting an opposition team does not mean an editor is going to vandalise/disrupt club pages. In addition, the assertion that I "only ever revert edits" is a bit of a stretch, yes I've had disagreements with this user in the past, but nothing more than I've had with any other user and have actually managed to reach a resolution with other users as they've been willing to have an open discussion. | |||
| ] vandalism: | |||
| Thejoebloggsblog has been a long term user on Misplaced Pages, and I feel that this sort of behaviour should not be done by a long-term user. There's been long time issues whereby when something is challenged in relation to the Port Adelaide Football Club that Thejoebloggsblog doesn't agree with, there is nearly never a resolution as Thejoebloggsblog either refuses to engage in any conversation or the discussion starts to become illogical (] is a classic example). It has become nearly impossible for other editors to try and improve the page and no one is suggesting that Thejoebloggsblog can't disagree that an edit by another user is not actually an improvement, but in doing so, there can't be just a revert with no explanation or a failure to engage in discussion. I don't know how many times myself and other users have tried to get Thejoebloggsblog to engage in discussion in the past, but considering this behaviour is still going on for someone who has been on Misplaced Pages for nearly seven years, I feel that Administrators involvement is needed. ] (]) 12:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Removing the water landings regarding the Flight 4 and 6 boosters from the table. | |||
| :This has been a long-term problem and it's disappointing to see that it's still going on. The most concerning part for me is his tendency to edit war to the threshold of 3RR, see that there is a clear consensus against him and instead of at least accepting that, he will try to make the same edits again a few months down the track in the hope that no one will notice. It's a frustrating situation because Thejoebloggsblog is I think sincere in really wanting to improve the coverage of PAFC-related articles, but Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project and it is necessary to be able to work with, rather than against, fellow editors. As can be seen by his talk page or a couple of the other trips to various noticeboards this is unfortunately not a one off situation. What should be done about it though? I'm not sure to be honest. I was thinking about suggesting a 1RR restriction but I'm not sure that would achieve anything because I think you'd still have the same behaviour where contentious or outright rejected edits try to get snuck in months later. ] (]) 12:34, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Removing the failed landing attempts of the Flight 2 and 3 boosters, marking them as expended while also breaking the template | |||
| ::The way he's going about it is quite frustrating. I got involved when I saw he'd deleted a chunk of sourced prose without an explanation and wanted to know why he did it, but it felt like the only reasoning he ever gave to me was directed at the fact I'm a Crows fan, which I think is a bit ridiculous given I've made an effort to improve articles about players from rival teams and, as you said, created an article specifically about Port Adelaide (though it's still a very low quality article). As far as I can tell he still hasn't given a reason why he prefers one revision over another, which is all I wanted him to do to begin with. ] (]) 02:12, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Demonstrating ability to repair the templates broken, does not do so | |||
| :::Slow motion edit warring is still edit warring and should attract blocks as normal. On a side note, AFL rivalry attracts the same level of bitterness as English Premier League rivalry, such as Liverpool vs Manchester or Manchester City vs Manchester United just without the whole attempting to burn each others' cities to the ground and street fights. (Personally, I think rivalry is healthy, but rivalry to the point that it ignites this madness rises to near nationalist levels.) ] (]) 01:36, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Breaking another template | |||
| ::::While it's true that the Crows and Port do have a very strong rivalry I don't think that should have any bearing on whether or not someone is allowed to edit a[REDACTED] article, especially when I'm just one of three or four people all disagreeing with Thejoebloggsblog's edits. ] (]) 03:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Breaking another template | |||
| :::::Tending to agree that although the SA rivalry is strong between the two teams, it should have no bearing on whether someone is allowed to edit a Misplaced Pages page or not unless there is strong evidence that an editor is purposely vandalising a page out of spite/rivalry, which is not the case for TripleRoryFan. In my opinion, Thejoebloggsblog should receive a temporary block per what Blackmane has said regarding slow edit wars. If admins agree, then hopefully it will lead to Thejoebloggsblog ceasing future edit wars and engaging in discussions to reach a resolution. In addition to actually using edit summaries when reverting people's edits. ] (]) 08:03, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Attempting to treat a broken template as a link | |||
| == Apollo The Logician again == | |||
| Further attempts to use a template as a link | |||
| {{userlinks|Apollo The Logician}} | |||
| Outright deleting the broken templates (that they knew how to fix) | |||
| See ] | |||
| Finally restoring the broken templates | |||
| A bunch of sockpuppets, many of whom appear to be Apollo The Logician sockpuppets, have been hounding ]. Some of them, like ], appear to be proxies. A few proxy blocks would seem to be in order. --] (]) 13:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I confirmed that single IP address is a proxy so have blocked it. I think this issue requires an admin with substantially more time than I have at the moment, to investigate. Additionally, note that Apollo the Logician is known to lie about use of sockpuppets. --] (]) 13:33, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] vandalism: | |||
| == Eyes on ], please == | |||
| {{la|Catalonia}} has apparently declared independence. It's already semi-protected, but there's a lot of contentious editing going on.--] 14:33, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{user|BrownHairedGirl}} has full protected for a week. As you might expect as a direct consequence, ] has lit up with protected edit requests, ranging from appropriate spelling and grammar issues to outright POV pushing. All admins may need to chip in on the talk page, as I don't think the traffic is going to die down any time soon. ] ] ] 16:45, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::See also {{la|List of sovereign states}}, {{la|Barcelona}}, and {{la|Independence referendum}}... --] 17:02, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::All added to my watchlist, {{u|SarekOfVulcan}}. ]<sup>'']''</sup> 17:06, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::You might want to add ] as well. ] (]) 17:11, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::They've now created a content-fork at ] and appear to have moved on to that as the dedicated edit-war zone. ‑ ] 17:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Yes. If only there was one battle site to contend with, I predict a weekend of turmoil on these pages. ] (]) 17:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Very tempted to redirect and full protect that in an ] sort of way, but I'm not sure I want to deal with... dammit. fine. --] 17:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Or not. Guess I'm more chicken than I used to be. --] 17:26, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Doing my best to hold back the ''Catalonia is independent'' related edits, but it's quite difficult. ] (]) 17:20, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :This is certainly not policy, but my inclination would be to leave ] (which has almost no incoming links, given that it was only just created) unprotected and direct all the nationalists on both sides there to duke it out, to keep the instability out of those articles to which people may actually be coming for information. We did something similar with ]/], in creating ] and pointing anyone wanting to rant about ''V For Vendetta'' and Anonymous there, and it worked fairly well. ‑ ] 17:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I tagged this article as ] earlier today (just after it was created and immediately before my news feed lit up with the independence declaration in earnest), but now I'm with Iridescent - while I personally wish the nationalists would just go to Wikinews or start a blog, I think they're going to have to have somewhere to slug it out (although the article has already been semi-protected). ] ] ] 17:37, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::(e/c) That's an attractive suggestion. To ''really'' keep the POV warriors busy and away from established articles, we should lift the prohibition on 3RR on that one article as well. (It might sound like I'm sarcastically snarking at Iri, but I'm actually semi-serious. <small> This philosophy has a lot of potential in numerous places, the more I think about it. Maybe a noticeboard where you can make accusations without evidence, can edit war over archiving the thread, say "fuck" as often as you want, and don't have to notify anyone, but which ''can never result in any actual action being taken''? ]? </small> --] (]) 17:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Wow. That's quite an ] solution, isn't it? I guess the five pillars just get ] there is the process? ] (]) 17:48, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::<small>Well, time to resurrect the ] then :) — ]] 18:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ] as appropriate]] | |||
| :::::I've always assume that this was part of the rationale for the existence of the REFDESKS.--]] 19:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :And {{la|2017 Catalonia declaration of independence}}. --] 18:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] the idea of honeypot pages intentionally designed to keep the editwarriors off pages with high readership and instead tie them up warring over a little-viewed page isn't a new one by any means. ], ] and ]—created before his death to keep all the squabbling out of a highly visible and legally sensitive BLP and instead confined to a bunch of pages no members of the public would ever read—are probably the canonical examples, along with ]. ‑ ] 19:06, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Can I at least claim credit for the ] idea? Although a way to attract more of them would be to name it ]. --] (]) 19:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| During these coming uncertain hours & days, I think we should work with the premise that Catalonia is still a part of Spain, when dealing with these incoming edits. ] (]) 18:38, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I think that's the only sane option, and we need to stress it's simply because in a fluid dispute like this, the status quo should remain, not because we are all Mariano Rajoy fanboys. ] ] ] 18:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Marking flight 3 vehicle as expended, with no landing attempt for flight 3 and 4. This is false: flight 3 attempted to reenter, flight 4 landed. Also breaks a template | |||
| :What we need to keep in mind here is that Spain will end up taking control of the physical infrastructure of Catalonia, but the Catalans, at least the fraction of them who support the move to become independent will end up setting up an alternative government that only exists on Cyberspace. Spain will try to crack down on that alternative cyber government and Misplaced Pages will then find itself in the crossfire of that Cyberwar. ] (]) 19:03, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::] ]] 19:10, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sounds like a a good time to re-read ''Neuromancer''. ]<sup>'']''</sup> 19:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Heck isn't it close to the time of ]? ] (]) 19:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I was actually thinking that this could turn into an NPOV trainwreck lasting for weeks or longer. Perhaps we should request the community (here) or via Arbcom, grant a temporary authorization for uninvolved admins to impose editing restrictions including 1RR on articles relating to Catalonia and its purported secession from Spain. Thoughts? -] (]) 19:36, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I like that idea. We should start a formal discussion for ] over on ]. A good discussion would take a week, but I don't think this is going to be resolved any sooner than that... --] 19:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I support this move. ] <small>(]/])</small> 19:48, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Discussion started at ]. --] 20:11, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Interestingly, it appears to me that the Spanish Misplaced Pages and Catalan Misplaced Pages articles, while busy and with more than their fair share of reverts, are not even semi-protected (with 2-3 exceptions I eventually found). Not sure if that's due to the size of the respective editing communities, the relative power admins may or may not have in all 3 communities, a relatively higher maturity level in their community, it's just more fun to argue in English, or what. But it's interesting. --] (]) 20:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC) although to be fair, they both have the equivalent article to ] protected. But articles about the vote, the claimed republic, the referendum... those don't seem to be. --] (]) 20:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| === List of involved pages === | |||
| *{{la|2017 Catalonia declaration of independence}} | |||
| *{{la|Andorra}} | |||
| *{{la|Barcelona}} | |||
| *{{la|Carles Puigdemont}} | |||
| *{{la|Catalan Republic (2017)}} | |||
| *{{la|Catalan Republic}} | |||
| *{{la|Catalan independence referendum, 2017}} | |||
| *{{la|Catalan independence}} | |||
| *{{la|Catalonia}} | |||
| *{{la|Els Segadors}} | |||
| *{{la|France}} | |||
| *{{la|History of Catalonia}} | |||
| *{{la|Independence referendum}} | |||
| *{{la|List of sovereign states}} | |||
| *{{la|Oriol Junqueras}} | |||
| *{{la|List of states with limited recognition}} added by Legacypac | |||
| *:There are even more listed at . Most have issues that for now prevent them from being linked on the main page. On a side note; it seems like we have a few too many articles dealing with essentially the same subject. -] (]) 18:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Seems par for the course here - creating new content (especially on an important topic) is fun, retrospectively fixing sourcing and POV pushing on somebody else's work is less so. ] ] ] 18:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Looks like ] is even more fun (?) ] (]) 18:43, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Repairs template, marks flight 6 and 7 as having not attempted a landing | |||
| *Not sure I agree with full protection here. ExtConf, perhaps, but I don't see the disruption that justifies shutting down all editing, as we don't usually do that as a preventative measure. It is overkill. We have hot topics all the time and allow editors to edit them with either semi or extprot in place, I would suggest the same here. Policy seems to back me on this. ] - ] 20:45, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ]: | |||
| :Not technically a[REDACTED] issue (other than that it's used in one of our articles) but ] has been updated to show Antartica as not recognising Catalonia so it seems this isn't restricted to controversy over the unilateral declaration. ] (]) 12:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Marks flight 2 booster as having not made a landing attempt | |||
| ===Arbitrary break=== | |||
| Just going to obliviously pop in here with a somewhat related question. On October 27, Catalonia declared independence and it was added to that day's article's events list. That was removed by ], who might be in the right but definitely should have chosen a less contentious edit summary than "''Removed not notable event.''" It has since been restored via a pending edit I approved. I can't say for sure if it belongs and I definitely don't want to ask at any of these battleground talk pages. (And that said, ] looks like another candidate for semiprotection because of this.) Stay? Go? ''''']]]''''' 22:30, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I thought it said ''California declared independence'', and said to myself, "Wow, the fallout from Trump never ends!" ''']]''' 23:03, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{replyto|EEng}} If I wanted to write one of those articles about California seceding, what notes would I have to hit? Hammer and sickle on the flag, one-party Communist rule, all military members either get deported or go in the stocks to get pelted with tomatoes... ''''']]]''''' 23:14, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, that's in ], isn't it? ] (]) 23:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Just factually describe the ] (and its flag) without bothering to mention that it was 170 years ago rather than now. —] (]) 04:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :<small>It's not an "]". It's a ] of the democratic rights of the Catalan peoples! ] (]) 23:20, 27 October 2017 (UTC) well, some of them anyway... </small> | |||
| ::<small>This is why these pages should let me add gifs. I need to add the one of Fred Armisen as the old-timey drummer on SNL. Ba dum PSSH. ''''']]]''''' 23:36, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::OMG. Fake Catalan ?? You really wanna claim ]? ] (]) 22:50, 28 October 2017 (UTC) </small> | |||
| Marks flight 3, 4, and 6 vehicles as having not attempted a landing, as well as flight 5 ship | |||
| == User Shmayo == | |||
| Attempts to insert a template where a template cannot go | |||
| *{{user3|Shmayo}} | |||
| Reverts previous edit | |||
| The user has been disruptively editing Syriac Christian-related articles for a while now. Back in January, he ], an article about the ethno-religious community, to ], the church body. Next, he about how the church leaders viewed of themselves and other ethnic and religious groups (commenting "Superfluous and wrong section"). He , and (this time commenting "Rv POV. Quotes reduntant and irrelevant in history-section, "identity" of specific people irrelevant and not verifiable"). He seems to be following the Assyrian nationalist view that all Syriac groups are Assyrians (POV). This is made clear by the user's intent to , which has been discussed before and rejected. The user calls the article a fork, which obviously is not the case. , twice. He which is directly discussing the article ] (very interestingly, with the comment "Discuss first. Wrong section. POV." Do I need to stress that all of my content at said articles follow Misplaced Pages guidelines of RS and NPOV? I am here to contribute, not remove. And he ... --] 23:46, 27 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :First of all, back in January, I wrote on the talk page several times. Of course, I should have directly notified involved users, which I stated even back then. Zoupan, I have been the one wanting to discuss these issues. But I have not got any response regarding the particular edits. version is not neutral, while one is. But again, you have not commented the actual edits on the talk page, even though I have been asking some pretty basic stuff. You are only refering to the "removal of sourced content", while you are doing the same thing. The difference is that my version is neutral, while you are cherry picking. As for the quotes, they are irrelevant to the history section and belongs to the articles discussing the terms. But even there, quotes favoring both identites, were deleted by Monochrome Monitor, for being redundant. If you can't agree that your edits are controversial, then you have not been following the discussions at ], were special guidelines have been set up. You are even using sources whose reliability have been questioned there. You should take some time reading through the consensus there first. ] (]) 00:05, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : I am repeating the same questions regarding your edits again. ] (]) 00:08, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : Zoupan is removing a link to the Assyrian people page for no reason, linking it to ACOE. What is your obsession with that? ] (]) 00:16, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::You have not made much of a discussion. You claim that it is a fork, when I have made my stance clear already last year. Your questions have little or nothing to do with the actual dispute on the talk page. As for the massacres, sources explicitly identify victims as Nestorians=members of the ACOE.--] 01:47, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I asked you the same questions back in January, without any answers again. My questions are very relevant for what you are actually reporting me for. ] (]) 23:23, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] vandalism: | |||
| == Could I borrow a couple eyeballs on the ] page? == | |||
| Adds claim of booster being expended without adding a source | |||
| , complete with its accusations of edit-warring and threats of warnings, and a few backwards tell the whole story. I'd ask at AN3, but there really does seem to be something else going on, {{ping|Leitmotiv}} has reverted something as uncited when it is followed by a cite just this side of plagiarism. ] (]) 02:37, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :"Widely" is wishy washy language that sounds "pro". Regardless it isn't necessary to the article. And it isn't cited. ] (]) 02:53, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Widely is accurate – a sky-is-blue fact for a website visited more than 3 million times per week. ] (]) 03:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Expands upon previous edit. Does not add a source | |||
| ::{{ec}}::From page 285 of ''American Carnival'', the work which is cited immediately following the material you removed: "the most widely known resource for validating or debunking rumors...." | |||
| ::As I said, there really does seem to be something else going on here. ] (]) 03:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::I see we have a conspiracy theorist here. No, I simply reverted your unnecessary edit of "widely". I reverted and that's it. To proactively add that Snopes.com is "widely" viewed accomplishes nothing except leading the reader into thinking that that is a benefit or a positive attribute as if to validate its authority. Misplaced Pages is supposed to remain neutral. If your goal is to show how much its viewed, then it was already accomplished by the number of views in the last line of the lede. That also means you're being redundant, another reason to revert. It may be obvious as the "sky is blue" but the obvious doesn't need to be stated twice, nor perhaps at all. Neutrality is the name of the game here, we don't need to lead the reader. ] (]) 05:01, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| They have been warned before to cease their vandalism. All of the above edits were done after this warning. ] (]) 01:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think the source's "the most widely known X" does not imply "a widely known X", which has some unknown absolute scale unlike the source's comparative. I use snopes, but from my friends' and relatives' reactions when I do, I'd say it's not really "widely known" to the broader audience. So maybe that's what's up there. Changing it to quote the source more closely ("the most widely known") would be better. ] (]) 05:06, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::], have you tried to communicate with them before coming to ANI? That's typically the first step and ANI is the last step if other forms of reaching out haven't worked. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::They've been warned before by another user, and the damage to the affected articles was rather severe. | |||
| :::Another warning would not disuade future vandalism/disruptive editing. ] (]) 03:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Death threats by 2.98.176.93 == | |||
| ::There is an element of ] and ] in "widely", but Snopes is the best known urban legends site.--'''''] <sup>]</sup>''''' 05:16, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop | |||
| :::That's one of my main reasons for deleting "widely". Between editors, I get that it's the biggest debunker of urban myths, but that doesn't change the fact that it's leading the viewer as one would lead a witness in a court of law. It's also redundant and therefore unnecessary. Wish washy through and through as far as I'm concerned. The article doesn't benefit from having it and it does just fine without it. ] (]) 05:23, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| | status = BLOCKED | |||
| :::: Please do not call other editors conspiracy theorists. Thank you. — ]] 06:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: {{u|Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi}} I agree it is bad form to insinuate that there "really does seem to be something else going on here", suggesting another editor has an ulterior motive, just as much as suggesting one is a conspiracy theorist. And hence the joke over something so mundane. Sometimes you have to point this stuff out though when the original editor does not assume good faith and the reason for my light-hearted joke. ] (]) 06:34, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| | result = Blocked and TPA revoked, nothing further. {{nac}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| It seems to be missed that my original edit was to remove the words "widely-used" when everyone here seems to be arguing over "widely known". Why we are arguing over widely known is unknown to me, because what I edited out was widely used. Still, it's a weasel word when Misplaced Pages has higher standards of being neutral even if a citation supports it. ] (]) 06:37, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| }} | |||
| :I edited it to exactly conform with the source to widely known ; you reverted 4 times afterwards. The fact that you are obviously not reading the works cited is one of the many other issues with your editting. | |||
| {{userlinks|2.98.176.93}} Left a death threat {{diff||1270338492|1270334632|here - diff}}<br /> | |||
| ] (]) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Note: 30 day block by {{user|Bbb23}} ] (]) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Death threat left after block. Talk page access? ] (]) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*TPA removed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I think {{tl|Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. ] (]) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::If you use ], you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Exactly, ], thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See ] for your options." ] (]) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:222.127.220.160 continuously adding incorrect data == | |||
| :Another problem is that you describe the ordinary BRD cycle -a single revert of a controversial edit, to be followed by discussion - as "edit warring", as you do . A ''single'' reversion, for what everyone else downthread and here felt was at least arguable, should not be reverted with {{tq|stop edit warring}}. That either means a deep confusion of what edit warring is, taking it to simply mean disagreeing with you, or an attempt to poison the well. | |||
| {{userlinks|222.127.220.160}} I took a look at their contributions, and despite some appearing helpful, most of them included changing the wind speed of tropical cyclones to incorrect estimates. The user has been warned this month by someone else, but seems to keep changing data regardless. I wasn't sure where to report this since it didn't look like vandalism, so I thought here might be the best place. —''']''' ] 04:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :And again, both Leitmotiv's edits on ] and here seem slightly confused about what strictures apply to Wiki writers, and which apply to sources. It would be a bad idea for some wikitor to call someone the "]" out of thin air, but he can use ]'s use of it without qualms, or even quotes. If the source calls Snopes ''widely known'', and no other sources substantively disagree, then removing it smells of POV pushing. | |||
| :Your first step, ], before coming to ] is to communicate with the other editor. Have you tried that? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, and I don't think it would have done anything since there was no reply to the warning given to the editor. —''']''' ] 04:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::That is not the right approach. In general, it is necessary for editors to make an effort to post meaningful text without a template. That might not affect the editor but it shows the rest of us that an attempt to communicate has occurred, and that allows admins to more readily block. At any rate, the IP was making dozens of fast edits and I have blocked them for 24 hours and left a message at their talk. ] (]) 04:57, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Repeated copyvios by Manannan67 == | |||
| :{{ping|Dicklyon}}'s point that something can be widely known within an interest group, a professional group, and so forth, and yet not as well known to the public at large can be legitimate, but that's easier solved with "best known among..." construction. I think given the amount of unwanted attention Snopes received from the ] lately, I suspect this is moot now, though. ] (]) 18:26, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Manannan67}} | |||
| ] has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (, , from ], , ), | |||
| most recently , when I discovered a they placed on . The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did one early warning from the talk page. ] (]) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| : The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to ] which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. ] (]) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :PS:Could any passing closer please leave it open long enough for the (blocked) subject to respond? That's a real problem around here. ] (]) 18:26, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to ]. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. ] (]) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." ] (]) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. ] (]) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Then I have no idea to what you are referring. As I said, I am not familiar with "Portraits of the Saints", nor do I know from where they got their info. ] (]) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == 2409:40D4:2041:20BA:8000:0:0:0 == | |||
| == User:Akocsg: Ethnic/nationalistic POV pushing, edit warring and IP-hopping == | |||
| This IP, ] keeps changing ordinals in similar pages (Colombian presidents). Pleasse block this IP immediately otherwise this IP will continually change the ordinals again. (Note: Already reported on ]) ] (]) 08:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *{{User|Akocsg}} and | |||
| :Note that this ISP, ], assigns ]es over an extremely large range and so this user is likely to IP hop.--] ] 08:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Blocked on German Misplaced Pages (Ethno-POV-Account on a mission) | |||
| This user removes the contents which he does not like and replace them with his own personal opinions. He always uses misleading and false edit summaries. | |||
| *I mention some of his edits for the comparison: | |||
| **] and misrepresentation of sources | |||
| **Removing sourced text and replace it with his own POV | |||
| **POV and labeling his edit as minor | |||
| **Removing any non-Turkic info which are based on the sources | |||
| **Disruptive edits like | |||
| *The recent issues: | |||
| **] Removed sourced content of article by providing a misleading edit summary, then started edit warring and inserted his personal opinions.. Then switched to IP-hopping. That IP-range is from Germany and since this user was active on German Misplaced Pages, then I'm sure it's him. IP's edit pattern and edit summaries matches with him too. IP targeted related articles and finally wrote a personal attack on my talk page. | |||
| **] Repeated his old way: Removed the content which he does not like and replaced it with a random non-English citation. Then after 2 month, he repeated it again (non-English sources). And this one. | |||
| It's a nationalistic mission/quest by him on English Misplaced Pages just like German Wiki. Is it necessary to provide more evidences? --] (]) 08:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Naniwoofg == | |||
| :::What is it with Turks and their extreme nationalism? ] (]) 16:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{User|Naniwoofg}} has been the subject of a complaint at ] for issues involving images and ]. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint includes refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. ] (]) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I would first like to state how surprised and astonished I am by this deceptive behaviour of this user. None of his accusations are true whatsoever. If you check his recent repeated edit in the article ] you can see how he simply deleted a statement which was provided with three different academic sources. They simply got deleted by him with the excuse that they are not English and hence not reliable! That's cherry-picking. And not constructive behaviour at all. | |||
| :Can we get a follow-up on this? @] has failed to respond to all inquiries on affected article talk pages, their user talk page, and the Tambayan PH talk page. We have been reverting their unexplained and unusual edits to the infoboxes of several Philippine road and building articles back and forth for the past few days. ] (] • ]) 07:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The very same case can be seen in the article ], where again a poorly written and unsourced passage was improved and corrected by me backed with sources. He simply reverted them all with the accuse that it's POV, which is the main accusation based on the same examples here! | |||
| :'''Support''' sanctioning this user. One latest questionable edit is on ] article, which . Naniwoofg claimed to had updated the infobox images, but the user used an image of the ] ''before the 2019 renovation''. I replaced Naniwoofg's choice of the church image with the one image taken after the renovation. <span style="font-family:Footlight MT">] <span style="background:#68FCF1">('']''|'']'')</span></span> 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| The result was that my objection got a result and the passage was finally removed after an input by another neutral user in the talk page. See here: , the adding of sources by me: , then he does it himself what I said should be done, deletes the whole passage: . | |||
| As you can see, what he first accused me of turned out to be right. | |||
| ==Okvishal and years of self promotion == | |||
| And those older edits, which I mostly can't even remember anymore, where mostly backed by sources back then. Most of them are minor edits anyway, and not destructive in any way. They were definitely not POV pushing or a "nationalistic mission" or whatsoever. This user apparently wants to simply get me blocked because of personal reasons, it seems. See the ] article, where sources simply get deleted on his whim... | |||
| {{atop|1=Okvishal indef'd. Article has been deleted (at its most recent title attempt, ]) and salt applied to all three variations that have been used. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| If you check my personal histoy here in the English Misplaced Pages, you will see that I made at least thousand edits and created/wrote many new articles. Most of them in the field of sports. Based on this fact alone one can see that I am not a POV-pushing User on a mission, like this user wants to make you believe. | |||
| {{Ping|Okvishal}} has been an editor for 14 years. They have 138 edits but only 11 of them are non-deleted ones and those non deleted ones are also for self promotion or promotion of their feature film. A look at their talkpage shows the sheer scale of self promotional editing they have done over the course of their wikicareer. Right after joining they created an autobiography which was speedy deleted, they recreated the article under a different title and it was as well. Over the course of 14 years, they have recreated their article and those of related topics several times all leading to waste of community time through AfDs as ,,, and most recently at . It is clear that they are not (and never were) here to build an encyclopaedia. Consider blocking them and ]ing ],],] etc. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 12:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I've blocked them as it's clear they're only here to promote their non-notable self. ] ] 22:29, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == 109.173.147.169 == | |||
| But this part of his report is the best. Please do check this out, it's important and shows how he is trying to manipulate you (if he is aware that it's not me): | |||
| "...and finally wrote a personal attack on my talk page. " | |||
| {{atop|] exists, I don't think admins have much else to do here. {{nac}} ] <small> (]) </small> 13:07, 19 January 2025 (UTC) }} | |||
| That was made by some totally different user. By this one: ] | |||
| This user, ], keeps persistently vandalising pages, even after they've been given a fourth and final warning. ] (]) 12:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| You can confirm that by checking the history in his talk page. That was not by me! But it is simply reported by him as if it was me. This is a serious accusation! | |||
| :This belongs at ] if it is unambiguous vandalism. {{nacmt}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 12:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''And that IP user is not me nor does not have anything to do with me.''' Please do an IP check or whatever is necessary to clarify this case. And as a major part of his accusations are based on that dubious IP account, one can see how this reporting is based on practically no consistent foundation. Regards, ] (]) 15:44, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::User has already been reported there, but thanks for the reminder anyway. ] (]) 12:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Persistent addition of unsourced content by 82.42.205.209 == | |||
| == Hawkeye75 == | |||
| {{userlinks|82.42.205.209}} - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, hasn't responded to warnings and continued after final warning. Examples of addition of unsourced content: {{diff|Fast & Furious 6|prev|1269494136|1}}, {{diff|Transformers (film)|prev|1269494579|2}}, {{diff|Teen Wolf: The Movie|prev|1270321882|3}}, {{diff|Comedy Central (Indian TV channel)|prev|1270322475|4}}, {{diff|Legend (TV channel)|prev|1270324650|5}}. ] (]) 14:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] has ] of disruptive editing. They've been blocked twice before: by the community under DISRUPT and NOTHERE, and ] under CIR. It seems they are back to their old ways: , . They've been given more than enough ROPE; request an indef community ban. Pinging admins previously involved: ], ], ] --] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 09:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like same bs as before.] <sup>]</sup> 09:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I looked at the article space edits (to ], ] and ]) and reinstated them; the only disruptive thing about them were the inappropriate edit summaries. Still, a name change is needed here as noted in previous discussions; I thought this thread was some attempt at harassing Hawkeye7 at first and almost did something very unpleasant. I don't object to the user retaining the name "Hawkeye" but the number definitely needs to change. ] (]) 15:40, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::First off, I'd like to say that James could of discussed the issue on my talk page which is one of the suggestions on the ANI page. I haven't seen James on Misplaced Pages for a good 8 months? So it's a been of a shock that he would just nominate me on the ANI without any conversation. Second, regarding the 2 edits that James mentioned. The that James mentioned, yes maybe the edit summary was too far, but the edit was correct. The IP user was using ] as a rule, when clearly it was not being used correctly. I already mentioned on the reasoning behind why it was wrong. Then the next day, the same IP user reverted their own changes which just cancels out the whole argument. Third, for James' , I'm not sure what's wrong with that. The IP user went over to Anna's talk page to discuss my edits and then expected me to go over to my talk page. I was just getting frustrated because there have been like 4 different IP's regarding this whole thing and I'm not sure if they are the same person or not, and it's getting difficult to tell each user apart. I'm not sure if they are experienced or not, or what the whole deal is. Here are the 4 IP user's , , and . I think I have made good contributions recently such as and I wish to continue to contribute to the encyclopedia. ] ] 18:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: I'm not sure if you are one of those other IP's, but regardless I appreciate your opinion and I do agree that my edit summaries were a bit out of place out of frustration. Hawkeye7 has said in the past that he is okay with my name I think and if that were to change, then I would change my name. ] ] 18:57, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::The issue here is not the quality of the edits but the conduct towards other editors. is not a good-faith reply to polite questions regarding a content dispute. And ? An editor is actively editing without replying within five minutes to a comment that didn't ping them (not sure if IP editors even ''can'' be pinged), and that indicates... evasiveness? Sockpuppetry? Hawkeye75 never took the time to answer the IP editor's questions, but he did have the time to repeatedly insist that the IP editor create an account before he'd be willing to discuss. IP editors are people too. Trying to resolve the dispute by getting the other editor blocked is highly inappropriate. I do not think this battleground mentality and unwillingness to discuss the merits of his own actions on request is appropriate for Misplaced Pages, and it does not agree with what they promised when their indefinite block was lifted: ''I will not start reverting wars or get angry at the reverted, but rather have a simple conservation about the revert on the talk page or just agree with the revert if it's justified''. Thus I will reinstate the indefinite block. I don't think a community ban is warranted at this point, though. I expect they'll find it rather difficult to get the block lifted either way. ] (]) 20:09, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::(]: "Registered users can be notified by other users and by IPs, however, an IP cannot be notified by any templates or links.") ―] ] 20:22, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Azhar Morgan == | |||
| == Lack of sources and no communication == | |||
| {{atop|Azhar Morgan has been blocked. ] ] 15:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Azhar Morgan has been IP editors and issuing final vandalism warnings. Some of the edits reverted are good like or . In addition this user's first edits appear to be vandalism: , , , , , . Could an admin look at this? ] (]) 15:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :They also a report on them here. ] (]) 15:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to ]], maybe more) == | |||
| {{u|Mathapatirachayya}} has only been editing since 2nd October 2017. In the last month, they have created around 4 unreferenced articles a day, about 100 in total. These all now require other editors' hard work to read through the long articles and try to verify all the information. Mathapatirachayya has been politely asked to slow down and source on several occasions. Several editors all had our messages ignored, although I was clear that ]. There have been nine messages in the last week expressing concerns about their editing. They are mainly on Indian villages and mainly have an 'External links' section - I have contacted Mathapatirachayya and asked if the external link is actually the source and just misnamed, but no response. I have given several warnings, but they continue to create unreferenced articles - many of them - and not respond. I'm coming here in the hope we can get Mathapatirachayya to engage. ] (]) 13:15, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|Nick Moyes}}, I saw your warning to this editor, is there particular reason to suspect ] here too? Thanks, ] (]) 13:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::My 'suspicion', if that's the right word, was based on the topics that were being created so rapidly, and the rationale for them. They seemed informative, useful, neutral, and possibly put together from some form of database or list of geographic information (sadly whose sources remain uncited). So I felt that, coming from such a very new user, these articles might potentially have been created by someone experienced, well-meaning, and possibly commissioned or employed to improve awareness of the ] region of southern India. That was a gut feeling, not an accusation, but it looked like a single-purpose account to me, worthy of a ] too, so I felt the question merited asking under the circumstances. (I hope I followed procedure by raising this in a civil manner on their talk page - that was my intent). I'm quite happy seeing good pages created on geographic areas such as these, but not if they remain uncited. It therefore seemed a question worth inviting the user to answer - though sadly there seems to be a difficulty in getting any response. ( I should add that I started drafting my comment on their talk page prior to your own warning message being placed there, but, being busy elsewhere, left it unfinished for 24hrs before posting. I didn't feel the need to flag up the edit confict at the time) Regards from the UK, ] (]) 15:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks, {{u|Nick Moyes}}, it was an appropriate question politely asked, it is unusual behaviour from a new user. ] (]) 18:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *In addition to the lack of sources, copyvio may be an issue too. {{U|Diannaa}}'s already warned re copyvios, I haven't yet checked the rest, but if this behavior continues further then a block is in order. —]''']''' 13:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *{{userlinks|Cherkash}} | |||
| Directly after this ANI was started, the editor created another unreferenced article, ], and despite clearly being on Misplaced Pages at the time, has not responded here or to SpacemanStiff's recent warning. ] (]) 13:45, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see ], ]). </br> | |||
| :That article also already exists as ]. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 16:21, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::As {{u|Mathapatirachayya}} have made '''zero''' attempt to communicate after nearly one month and 340 edits, I have temporarily deleted all 104 pages (spot check indicates they all share similar issues or being possibly copy and pasted and unreferenced) created by this user until we receive some kind of response from this user. ] (]) 16:29, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks, {{u|Alex Shih}}, I think that's the best solution. We'll see if the editor will respond. ] (]) 18:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Socked and blocked. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 10:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *There are more socks, I'm just listing these here per {{U|Bbb23}}'s log of checkuser blocks related to this farm, the following accounts need checking too: | |||
| {{cot|List of socks}} | |||
| * Master -- Simple-man-everyday | |||
| # Z4X7KK7F3WX4H | |||
| # Z3S8F6JV4H7 | |||
| # XK4E7HF5XZW | |||
| # X3K3W9ZX4HXK | |||
| # N4K8W3X7FH | |||
| # R6V8JF3G4 | |||
| # G7E3K9FXM7 | |||
| # F7X4E8W9S1 | |||
| # Nammavijayapur | |||
| # Mathapatirachayya | |||
| # E3X78H4K36Z | |||
| # A3F7GH72 | |||
| # D7G1FV49C | |||
| # FM7KE3K9HX4 | |||
| # Mony-Mony | |||
| # R4A2DS5C1 | |||
| # Yellow-leaf | |||
| {{cob}} | |||
| Pinging{{ping|Lugnuts|Nick Moyes|Boleyn|Alex Shih}} as an FYI for further clean up. —]''']''' 11:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the ] pages and even had raised the issue here , with no visible actions following. | |||
| == Soaringbear needs a timeout == | |||
| Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg | |||
| This user will not follow policies and guidelines and is abusive when folks try to explain what they are doing wrong. In my view they need a long time out. | |||
| They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints. | |||
| After several bad interactions, I the following on their Talk page at the end of July: | |||
| Other examples can be seen from ], such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: , | |||
| <blockquote>Looking at your you have made 617 edits to Misplaced Pages. You have used an article talk page only 3 times, and user talk pages 29 times. Almost all of those talk page remarks have been abusive. | |||
| The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN ], ], ], ]. | |||
| If you cannot adapt to this basic requirement of working here, you are going to find your privileges (and they are privileges, not a right) to edit Misplaced Pages restricted or completely removed. I am providing a set of diffs below, showing that you have been failing to work collaboratively with others thus far. | |||
| I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content. | |||
| Please take this as an unambiguous warning, that you need to change your approach to working with others. | |||
| ] (]) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? ] (]) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the ], e.g. about normalising ], and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in ]. | |||
| ::I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via ''de facto'' statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often ], which I cannot even comment on. ] (]) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Here is a link to the last time this was raised here. | |||
| :::The short form: there appears to be a dispute between use of de-facto or de-jure borders. That is why Taiwan comes up. Some editors appear to believe that it is more neutral to either use de facto borders (Taiwan independent, Crimea not part of Ukraine) rather than de jure borders (Taiwan = China, Crimea = Ukraine). | |||
| :::I would suggest, whether de facto or de jurw borders are used the map should be consistent in that usage. I would also suggest that {{User|Unas964}} should adhere to ] while {{user|Cherkash}} needs to start communicating with other editors at least minimally, which will likely ease such assumptions regarding their editing.] (]) 19:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::In any case, what's the alleged misbehaviour here? We can't stop an editor uploading images on commons, nor can we do anything about what is in their categories. We can prevent these images being used in our articles but is the editor actually the one putting them in our articles? ] (]) 23:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{Out}}UN Resolutions are not Misplaced Pages guidelines. They're not even binding for the countries involved, let alone Misplaced Pages. UN Resolutions do not recognize Taiwan nor Israeli current borders, yet we recognize their independence and their ''de facto'' territories in out articles. ''De jure'', there's no Taiwan, and Israel is still at war with Iraq since 1947. ''De jure'', the ] violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union. Do we care? Misplaced Pages focuses on facts, the ''de facto'' state of the world, not bound by temporary laws made by temporary entities which often don't even recognize each other: according to Bhutan, ''de jure'' there's no Croatia; according to Greece, there's no Northern Cyprus; according to Serbia, there's no Kosovo; according to the UN, there's no Taiwan... should we follow them? Of course not. You're free to be pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian, as long as you stick to facts. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :My only horse in this race is that Misplaced Pages should be consistent, at least at the level of any given artifact (such as a map), of showing either de jure borders, de facto borders or no borders at all. It is non-neutral to pick and choose de facto for thee, de jure for me. ] (]) 14:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| In December 2015, at ]: | |||
| ::{{re|Simonm223}} Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their ''de facto'' state. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * 22:57, 4 December 2015 , you added content sourced to primary source to an article about a drug, and it was reverted | |||
| :::Taiwan is de facto independent and de jure non-independent so I think you may have the terms backward there. However this speaks to my point - the important thing, from a neutrality position, is to stick to a consistent method of parsing these factual questions. Because, in a lot of these cases, it's not a matter of "facts over anything" but is rather making a positive decision which set of facts to prefer. It is a ''fact'' that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine. It is also a ''fact'' that Crimea is not presently being administered by Ukraine and is thus de facto not part of that country. If we have a map that chooses to prefer the de jure condition of Crimea as part of Ukraine and then to use the de facto boundary between China and Taiwan this is now non-neutral. It's Misplaced Pages failing to set a consistent standard and instead going based on vibes. | |||
| *13:29, 8 December 2015 insult at user talk page: {{tq|why would you possibly revert science referenced research? If you didn't like it then edit it, don't just delete (censor) it.}} | |||
| :::Standards must be consistent. Ideally these standards should be consistent across the project and documented in an MOS. Failing that these standards should be consistent within any given article. Failing that these standards absolutely must be consistent in an indivisible artifact such as a map. | |||
| * 13:33, 8 December 2015 reverted with no edit note, which was again reverted | |||
| :::As a corollary it is ''in favour of Misplaced Pages's neutrality goals'' to prefer a consistent representation of borders, whether that is de facto, de jure or to not show national borders at all (which remains an option). Now I will note that I didn't see much in the way of talk page discussion or of edit summaries from @] - which I pointed out as somewhere they could improve in my original comment - but if Cherkash is, in fact, motivated by wanting a consistent standard for depicting national boundaries on a map then @] has seriously failed to ] by depicting said forwarding of neutrality goals as if it were a hate-motivated attack on Ukraine. ] (]) 15:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * 19:19, 8 December 2015 {{tq|I don't know if I'm dealing with Alexbrn or Zephr but the overly brief and meaningless comment of "poorly sourced" hardly applies to peer reviewed medical literature that I referenced. Edit what I did instead of reverting (censoring?) it.}} | |||
| ::::{{re|Simonm223}} I '''don't''' {{tq|have the terms backward there}}. I literally stated that {{tq|''De jure'', there's no Taiwan}}, and also what I meant for {{tq|facts, the ''de facto'' state of the world}}. Please, work on your reading and comprehension skills before making such accusations. Misplaced Pages requires ]. // and no, '''it is not''' {{tq|a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine}}, as ''de jure'' {{tq|the ] violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union}}, as I had already wrote, because ''de jure'' the ] didn't have the authority to mandate land exchanges among constituent states, power which they only had ''de facto''. Do better. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 03:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Taiwan is not de jure non-independent, de jure inherently requires picking a jure so to speak. It's a ruling from within a legal system, not a natural fact. That said, I agree picking maps with particular borders is not hateful conduct. If there's diffs of something else, it would be helpful to see them. ] (]) 15:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::According to that logic, any war crime or mass genocide could be justified by neutrality and ]. In theory, that does not align with ], since neutrality cannot allow for extremist views. Yet considering the replies here, I conclude that there is a consensus on Misplaced Pages that in the ] the positions of the victim and the aggressor are treated as equal or in favour of the former. ] (]) 17:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration ] (]) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::This is fast reaching ] territory. ] (]) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::We also have ]. ] (]) 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :There is no point in speculating what was legal or not in a totalitarian state, where laws are primarily instruments for maintaining control and suppressing opposition rather than upholding justice (see e.h. ). The soviet/Russian viewpoint on Crimea has the same zero value as the position of Third Reich on the state of Israel. It cannot be attributed to the same weight as of the democratic countries as Ukraine, Israel, the US etc. In the same way, you could justify the ], ], ] and ] by some ''de facto laws''. Soviet regime murdered tens of millions of people, and the current Russian legal system justifies that: not only ], ] and the other indigenous minorities in Crimea, but in oher regions, as well (as e.g. ]). That renders ''de facto maps'' a propaganda instrument of a malevolent state, which could not be accepted on any basis of neutrality. | |||
| :Yet you equalise the positions of tyranical dictatorships and democratic countries while rejecting the UN resolutions. I see this as a violation of ] and consider not to be taken into discussion at all. ] (]) 07:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq|''de facto laws''}}? You're way too confused. {{langnf|la|de jure|by (some country's) law}} is the total opposite of {{langnf|la|de facto|by facts, in reality}}. That's the point. Nice list of stuff tho. Have fun. ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 08:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I can't help but notice that the editor this complaint is concerned with, Cherkash, hasn't responded and hasn't edited on the project since January 12th and has barely edited in 2025 at all. What was the urgency in posting this complaint right now, ]? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Hamzajanah posting vanity hoaxes and general NOTHERE behaviour == | |||
| In November 2016 about ] | |||
| {{atop|1=] user is ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * 17:44, 13 November 2016 you added some detail to an article, and it was reverted. | |||
| *{{userlinks|Hamzajanah}} | |||
| * 15:28, 16 November 2016 you restored your remark at the top {{tq|I don't know how this talk page works but for you to say my few words of clarification "does not fit well" is senseless}}, which was misplaced, inappropriate, and was reverted. | |||
| *13:58, 18 November 2016 at the top of a user talk page, {{tq| don't know how this talk page works but for you to say my few words of clarification "does not fit well" is senseless. I am still waiting for response}}; this was to the bottom of the page, per convention. | |||
| * - you were given a '''very''' long response to your note, to which you never replied. | |||
| * 14:40, 19 November 2016 you again wrote at the top of the page {{tq|I don't know how this talk page works but for you to say my few words of clarification "does not fit well" is vague and senseless - I am still waiting for clarification what specifically you mean? What wording would you find acceptable for adding that little bit of information?}} | |||
| * 16:48, 26 November 2016 you restored the content to the article, writing {{tq|"does not fit" is hardly a reason}} | |||
| I'm really struggling with this new user. They have posted ] and ] both autobiographies and both contained multiple hoaxes. They are continually using Misplaced Pages as a ] and violating ] too. They are constantly boasting about their wealth, see for example. They claim to be a close associate of ], ] and ]. They are also . I have not seen one constructive edit and their is one of the worst I've seen and also warns us of "persistent sockpuppetry". This is bordering on ] already. Their ability to navigate Misplaced Pages suggests that they might have had previous accounts and might even be an LTA vandal but I can't think who it is. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| in December 2016 you ], and your response to the nomination was: | |||
| :That filter is notoriously poor for detecting socks. I believe it was created with one sockmaster in mind, and yet based on how it functions (I'm not good at filters), comes up with many (mostly?) false positives.--] (]) 17:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * 00:02, 27 December 2016 {{tq|"speedy" deletion of Gynura was un-necessary and DESTRUCTIVE by you}} | |||
| ::It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. ] (]) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * 00:05, 27 December 2016 {{tq|speedy deletion?? what for? that was destructive of you - losing significant information - I leave it for you to repair by renewing it}} | |||
| :::In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — ] ] 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think that that's a fair outcome. Thanks all. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == User:Edward Myer == | |||
| This month at ]: | |||
| * 13:57, 17 July 2017 initial edit | |||
| * 16:51, 19 July 2017 comment left in the middle of someone else's section at my talk page. {{tq|PANS page requests pharmacology expert and as PhD in that subject I added something. What is your expertise for reverting?}} | |||
| * 17:55, 19 July 2017 , edit warring restoration with edit note: {{tq|I am pharmacology expert providing useful info and citation - your edit would be appreciated but undo is NOT}} | |||
| *18:32, 19 July 2017 at talk insult at the article Talk page section I opened. | |||
| * 22:22, 20 July 2017 , revert with no edit note | |||
| * 17:42, 21 July 2017 revert, edit note {{tq|Revert destruction instead of edit is unacceptable behavior}} | |||
| * 11:37, 22 July 2017 , comment at my talk page in someone else's section: {{tq|talk page?? I don't know where the fuck you're talking about but you keep destructively reverting useful information which violates everything about wikipedis}} | |||
| * 13:34, 23 July 2017 at talk , insult </blockquote> | |||
| *{{userlinks|Edward Myer}} | |||
| * They replied with : {{tq|DON'T shrink me. I gave you NO authority to examine my editing record to psychoanalyze me. You abused your position. It is obvious now that you were perfectly capable of editing my edit WITHOUT reverting, and the fact that you reverted repeatedly proves that YOU instigated this edit war, not I. YOU are the abuser, and I am disgusted with your abusive manipulative behavior.}} (unsigned, no indents) there on their talk page, and at my talk page with things like , randomly inserted: {{tq|When a page advises need for pharmacology expertise then my question about your expertise is VERY appropriate, and you show how wierd you are to revert me and refuse to show expertise. For you to be snooping through my past is wrong in so many ways and for you to not realize it shows how corrupt you are.}} | |||
| {{u|Edward Myer}} was recently ] for two weeks, for creating a sock account to retaliate against myself and another AfC reviewer whose reviews they didn't like. (The socking was just the tip of the iceberg, there's much more to this as ] shows.) That block expired a few days ago, and since then they're back on the war footing, complaining and insinuating ], ] and ]; as well as posting similar stuff on the talk pages of ], ] and ]. I think this needs to stop; for one thing it's a time sink, and I for one really don't care for the belligerence. I don't think I should be the one to indef them, as I'm involved, but I'd be grateful if someone did. --] (]) 18:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *I am not involved except insofar as I have declined ], but I saw their behaviour towards others and it made me consider whether I would make a review, especially to decline. A less resilient reviewer might well have avoided it. | |||
| * a week later they responded with to a standard notice from ] about using MEDRS refs: {{tq|you can't kill an idea no matter how theoretical and new; you could have edited this instead of reverting}} and with to a followup by ]L {{tq|so why am I seeing an increase of lazy numb-headed reverts in place of editing to improve things??}} and with : {{tq|I see the same quote over and over: "disruptive editing. this does not belong here. unncessary anyway. Undid revision". That makes it lazy and numb-headed; also autocratic and impossible to talk-reason with. Reflects descent and degeneration and bureaucratization of the whole management and idea of wikipedia.}} | |||
| :I confess that I am waiting for the invective, and I support {{u|DoubleGrazing}}'s well measured request on that basis. | |||
| :My view is for one final attempt in case they are educable. If they are not then 'final' should mean 'indefinite editing restrictions' 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 18:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::They have been ], . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at ]. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. ] ] ] 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::To be fair, the sandbox may have a better shot at acceptance! I aways believe in extending my good faith as far as possible. I have seen some remarkable turnarounds by doing so. Obviously there comes a point, but I am not wholly sure we are there yet. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks for taking the initiative in filing this ANI, DG; I was || this close to filing it myself. This user ]. - ] ] 22:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. ] (]) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{smalldiv|1=The above post is a duplicate of that posted at . ] ] 22:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Seems like a clear case of ] and just wanting to push an article to mainspace and ] without even citing such. Sounds like a longer block may be necessary. ] ] 23:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], this is serious. Have you read over this complaint? Can you let this grudge go and go on to do some productive editing and let the past be the past? If you continue on this path, I don't see you editing on Misplaced Pages for the long term. This is a moment where you can choose to change your approach and turn around you time here as an editor. But it is up to your willingness to do so. Does that sound like something you can and want to do? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * today . again at their talk page in response to Doc James: {{tq|That was a high quality PRIMARY source. You are mistaken in calling it secondary. Your reversions are NON collaborative. The wiki way is FIXING things instead of ERASING. So I expect you to put my peer reviewed reference back in. EDIT if you want but no more blunt reversions. There is a reason they are seeing people respond to them over and over with requests to stop be disruptive.}} and : {{tq|your statement to use higher quality secondary sources is nonsense. I provided a PRIMARY source PEER reviewed journal that is as high quality as possible. You can edit for clarity but do NOT revert for nonsense excuse..... You need to express better what your real reason for reverting was because your claim is FALSE.}} ... {{tq|answering with a question is NOT an answer. you are VIOLATING the[REDACTED] way in REFUSING to answer how you would accuse a primary peer review journal report as being secondary nonsense???}} | |||
| *:My field of expertise is Hip Hop. I do intend to do other articles on other subjects, and add relevant updates to current live articles. I'm here to be apart of the community and contribute to[REDACTED] in a specific field that I'm passionate about. I hold no grudge or ill will for no one. As I said to LiZ I had to get adjusted to how communication on[REDACTED] works. ] (]) 14:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Like I said... ] (]) 13:34, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support block''' Unless they agree to 1) use high quality secondary sources 2) improve their civility / sign their posts. ] (] · ] · ]) 15:13, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support block''' '''Until''' they agree to 1) use high quality secondary sources 2) improve their civility / sign their posts. -] ] 15:16, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support block''' They don't seem to be able understand and follow standard Misplaced Pages practices. ] ] 16:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support block''' under the terms outlined by Doc James. ] ] 16:50, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support block''' I agree with the overall sentiment of this post that there is clearly a problematic pattern of behavior despite numerous attempts to help Soaringbear. As James states above, unless Soaringbear demonstrates a clear willingness to start interacting in a meaningful way with other Misplaced Pages users and adhere to using high-quality secondary sources, I support a block as well. ] (]) 17:33, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Nonvote''' it's pretty clear where this is headed and doesn't need pile-on. Just wanted to say that I {{diff2|807535163|tried}} to help, too. ☆ ] (]) 18:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *@Soaringbear: Misplaced Pages needs pharmacology experts, but a topic expert is not much use here unless they are able to follow standard procedures, and willing to take the effort to do so. ] (]) 23:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Before any action is taken, I have made a substantial offer of assistance to Edward Myer on their user talk page. I am no-one special to make the offer, and I would like us to take a little time to see if it can be effective before reaching any conclusion. I have had some success before with helping editors who are in pain here. The offer is in the spirit of my early post in this thread. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 07:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Hello: | |||
| ::I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. ] (]) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I think you are missing the point | |||
| :::We have started to work together. May I suggest respectfully that any other matters be set aside for the duration? They can always be returned to if deemed necessary. My hope is that editors will not feel it to be necessary. 🇺🇦 ] ] 🇺🇦 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :My concern is the sock. Edward Myer, do you promise never to sock again? ] (]) 14:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Please revoke TPA from ] == | |||
| This Doc James is engaging in classic smothering - https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Don%27t_smother_conflict | |||
| {{archive top|result={{done}}. ] 20:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * {{vandal|JEIT BRANDS}} | |||
| Talk page abuse, still spamming after block, please revoke TPA ] 18:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{ab}} | |||
| == Continual ECP-Violating Posts in WP:RUSUKR area by User_talk:Valentinianus_I == | |||
| Straight out of the wiki policy pages: "Reverting tends to be hostile, making editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant." "Do not revert an edit because it is unnecessary" https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Revert_only_when_necessary | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocked for a week. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|_Valentinianus I}} | |||
| ] is an editor with 80 edits as of the moment I'm writing this, the majority of edits made to ] topics. | |||
| * As background, this editor was notified repeatedly by ] in August , and clarified . Melik again notified Valentinianus a month later in response to more edits that were not exempt , . | |||
| Demand for clinical RCT data is simply unrealistic in a world of billions of separate chemicals. We can all wish for it all we want, but it simply ain't happening. I will suggest that there is possibly an element of professional conflict here, between him as physician and me as pharmacologist. I have training and experience in evaluating pre-clinical, non-human studies, that Doc James lacks. | |||
| * Valentinianus was blocked for a few weeks in October until ] unblocked them after giving benefit of the doubt. I'm only bringing this up because Rosguill, during the unblock reference notified Valentinianus that they would "like you to confirm that you've read and understand ] by identifying edits that you have made in violation of it, and how you will observe it going forward." | |||
| It is unfortunate he cannot respect science outside of his profession of human studies, and thinks he can revert with useless abrasive comments like "nonsense" and rapidly escalating to calling me "abusive" and "several bad interactions" that "need a long time out". In other words he lacks capacity to oversee other scientists and is abusing his authority. | |||
| * ] notified Valentinianus on 1/18 that they were making inappropriate edits in violation of RUSUKR and was violating ] as well . Valentinianus replied that asking for a rename and calling for a subsequent rename vote were edit requests . | |||
| So there are two main issues here. Chrysin is a page that is nearly empty and contains speculation (*under lab research" and bodybuilding) that is far weaker than the reference I added and my edit is just a spark revealing a process conflict that is much bigger. Bear | |||
| ''After'' that reply to Isabelle Belato (so that there is no question Valentinianus is aware of the latest warning), Valentinianus made five additional edits to ]. None were remotely along the line of constructive edit requests, the problematic ones being to argue that a source is a "Ukrainian shill site" , a project complaint about the infobox , and ] about the bad faith of the other editors on the talk page . | |||
| P.S. I will add that part of the process problem is how ready you are to convict when you hadn't heard from me yet. | |||
| :{{u|Soaringbear}}, those pages you linked to above are essays reflecting the personal opinions of some editors and those pages most certainly are ''not'' policies and guidelines. Doc James has tried quite hard to get you to understand that we insist on sources that comply with ]. If you want to edit Misplaced Pages, then you must accept that and internalize it and follow it 100% of the time. And you need to start collaborating and communicating better. Are you prepared to accept that? | |||
| While in isolation, no individual edit is egregious, this editor has been warned several times about the limits of RUSUKR, and adding ], ] , and ] violations in this area to the number of ] violations, I believe an indefinite topic ban from ] topics, broadly construed, is appropriate. | |||
| :As for "convict", this is not court of law. It is a project to build an encyclopedia. You were notified of this conversation on your talk page as soon as it started and I told you about it on Doc James's talk page as well. ] ] 18:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 19:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * I've just blocked them for a week instead. If they're ignoring the ECR restrictions, they'll just ignore a topic ban; that's because the reason they're ignoring the ECR restrictions is either ] or the fact that they don't care, and either would apply to a topic ban as well. Perhaps they'll get the message after this block, or perhaps they won't at which point we can look at further sanctions (which, let's face it, is likely to be an indef). ] 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Even reliable sources are being ? The part "It is primarily found in honey, propolis, and the passion flowers Passiflora caerulea and Passiflora incarnata, and in Oroxylum indicum." was sourced to . ] (]) 18:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Just noting that the prior block before this was a sockpuppetry block, which I lifted as I found their explanation of how they came to make their edits plausible. The further editing since the unblock as outlined in the block actioned by Black Kite seems appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 22:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| *Are we looking at the same editor, ]? Rosguill never unblocked this editor but Beeblebrox did back in December. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::There's a few comments here that seem muldly disconnected from exactly what happened previous to this, but probably not to the point whee it changes the math on this latest block. ] ] 02:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::It appears I was unclear. I was quoting Rosguill's reminder about RUSUKR in the conversation ''about'' a possible unblock . My point wasn't about the block itself, but that the editor received an additional warning about their edits in that area. I missed including that specific diff. ] (]) 10:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: ] (]) 11:35, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User talk page access, Wiseguy012 == | |||
| I , among other things. Let's see what happens. ] (]) 02:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|result=I'm just going to close this. If Wiseguy012 returns and continues to rant or issues personal attacks, please return to ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| Blocked user ] is using their talk page only for the purpose of continuing the rant that they got blocked for at ] and that they continued there as a sock account, {{noping|Friend0113}}, which is also now blocked. See . Revoke user talk page access? ] (]) 01:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello, ], | |||
| :There is no ] account. Did you mean someone else? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :{{noping|Wiseguy012}}, lower g. ] (]) 01:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks CMD. They are just ranting to themselves, not attacking anyone. An admin might come by, review this complaint and remove TPA but I don't find it egregious enough to act. Typically blocked editors can act like this right after they discover they've been blocked but then they move on and leave Misplaced Pages or they start creating sockpuppets and that's a bigger problem than a talk page rant. Too soon to tell right now. But it doesn't seem ANI-worthy to me. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 01:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::The things some people decide to get mad about.... What they posted on the talk page was a copyright violation in its entirety, so that's gone, and I've warned them for that and let them know further disruption of any kind will cause them to lose talk page access. ] ] 01:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sorry about the G, and thanks for the guidance about the talk page access. ] (]) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Still misuse of talk page for spamming. ] 07:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::That content was posted hours ago and was similar to what was reported here in the complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Caste-based disruption == | |||
| {{u|HistorianAlferedo}} has engaged in contentious ] style editing in the ] related sanctioned topic area for quite sometime now. The user being repeatedly warned and clearly aware of these sanctions (evident from the removal of warning notices on their talk page) shows no signs of desisting. The editing pattern follows a faux concern of caste promotion by removing genuine well-sourced and known information all the while engaging in ] POV in multiple articles. That the editor isn't new is also evident from the fact that they can handedly cite obscure policies such as ] (of course incorrectly and disingenously). Lisiting some particuarly egregious edits: | |||
| *, , , : deliberate insertion of incorrect wikilinks and false removals to obscure that the empresses were Rajput princesses | |||
| *: clearly falsifying an acronym (note the insertion of a dubious reference which nonetheless has nothing to do with the article subject) | |||
| *, , , , : POV caste-based insertions | |||
| *, : POV caste-based removals | |||
| This only a fraction of the tendentious edits in the user's topic warrior style editing related to Indian history and social groups. Not to mention the insertion of multiple non-RS refs when it suits the preferred POV while claiming to remove them in other articles. Considering the history, ediitng restrictions should follow in the form of a ] t-ban or a general one till the user can show that they are not going to be in violation of enwiki policies anymore (all the more necessary considering the IP socking , ). Bringing this to ANI on advice of the editor themselves: . ] (]) 11:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I am shocked how you denigrate those[REDACTED] pages as being just "personal opinions of some", since I have nothing else to go on, and neither do you (or you would have pointed me to other pages supporting your conviction). That puts you in the miserable position of opposing other editors. Your one sided argumentativeness is unbecoming of a fair and level discussion, and is a sign of bias and prejudgment of me. There can be no argument as to the serious intent of those sensible guidelines about smothering and reverting. They are there for very good reason and it is improper for you to convict me while denigrating other editors and very sensible policies. Clearly a review of this whole matter is needed at a higher level than among bickering editors. | |||
| :], you MUST notify the editor that you have posted this complaint. Please do so. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{done}} ] (]) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually i was only editing and adding new information along with genuine citations. I had no motive for any sort of vandalism or anything else. Based on the knowledge about various topics of Indian history i was just trying to contribute in a positive way. Moreover some of the allegations by user Gotitbro are totally irrelevant, i’m not an indian but interested in the topics related to Indian history. New editors should be supported by the old ones and not demotivated with false allegations. Alright, if the old editors don’t want the new ones to contribute to[REDACTED] even in a good way then i’ll definitely even delete my account from wikipedia. Thank you ] (]) 08:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::], I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Okay @]. Please have a look at pages: ] and ] I added relevant information along with scholarly work sources but user:@] just reverted all the changes without even looking at the correct citations. That’s why i thought now i won’t edit and visit[REDACTED] as few users here just try to show off their ranks, there are good wikipedians and administrators too but a few of them are doing this with the new contributors. Thank you ] (]) 15:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == On-wiki hounding, off-wiki soliciting, and severe stalking by ] == | |||
| I see you ignored my point about the limitation of MEDRS, which indeed is useful for the world of some food ingredients and 7000 approved drugs that do have a lot of information (MD's are familiar with this). On the other hand, the great majority of billions of separate chemicals lacking data, require holding to a lower level (that pharmacologists and chemists are familiar with). Same dilemma environmental protection and toxicology agencies struggle with. The lower level of MEDRS was already met by my attempted addition of a report of physiological effect from a prime peer-reviewed research journal, so should not have been reverted. As for attracting pharmacology experts, your nonsense rules for doctors and drugs will NEVER attract those who can handle data gaps of millions of other chemical compounds. | |||
| I wanted to let go this and move on, but considering my uncertain future with {{u|SerChevalerie}}, I had to take this to ANI. | |||
| I see you ignored my point that prosecutor Doc James protects that page (smothering) for his own personal kind of unsupported speculation (*under lab research" and bodybuilding) that fails MEDRS, so is only selectively using MEDRS as basis of reverting. By the way, the citation I attempted to add falls very much within the sphere of "under lab research" that Doc James is otherwise protecting. | |||
| To give a little background of the editing behavioural problems with the above mentioned editor, it started around late June 2024 when I made this edit . This was followed by his immediate reverts and significant edits . I had no problem with this, as this article was something wherein a third party editor had requested to expand it in a local Misplaced Pages WhatsApp group we were part of. | |||
| I was only notified of the initial prosecutor's statement, not of any subsequent remarks. So far this conversation is scattered out over multiple pages (chrysin, DocJames, mine, admin) and it's hard knowing where else. Several people voted to support block with no sign of seeing editing history nor my position, so there is a fundamental lack of fairness, which each of you will have to come to terms with. You are ganging up on me and you do no favors for[REDACTED] doing that. | |||
| Both me and SerChevalerie were part of this WhatsApp group of Wikipedians from ]. Having known each other online for over two years, and we shared the same native state. The problems arrived when he got back active on Misplaced Pages after a break of roughly 4 years and went on serious stalking my edits, the page I contributed, but mainly the pages that I created. As am In ] and I love creating articles, but this was something he went overly critical on. | |||
| I have had long commitment to the[REDACTED] concept of Jimmy Wales, and when you get in the way by overly restrictive reverting, and violate sensible[REDACTED] guidelines, then I will challenge you as falling into a bureaucracy nightmare. If censorship is your tool for scientific disagreement then you fail the ideals. No matter how challenging and exasperating I am, I am not undermining. If you're not prepared to revert EVERY ONE of my hundreds of editing contributions over the years then you have no business blocking me.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small> | |||
| From June to August 2024, most of the edits SerChevalerie made were pertaining to the articles that I significantly worked on or created. During this, I was much subject to ] on major of the articles I created such as ], you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just ], arguing by citing essays like ] instead of finding a resolution or just ]. It was until I finally took the decision to take it to ] we reached a consensus after several days of discussion. | |||
| : Based on the comments above, I have ] the editing privilege of {{u|Soaringbear}}'s account. Explanations have been given at their talk page. ] (]) 03:09, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Over the course of some 30 articles that I created from June to August 2024, SerChevalerie has made edits which often times were seen as annoying and major stalking behaviour. He also likes to stay at the "top of the order" constantly as you can on articles such as ] as per his latest "copyedit". During this period of two months almost entirely of his edits he has made were only pertaining to my articles. | |||
| Soaringbear, MEDRS may not be as limited as you think. Compare to . You have to read many reviews, including PDF files to expand the content. It takes time and patience. ] (]) 15:44, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| When I had nominated his article ] for SD, he then tried to solicit and I felt harrassed after he took his arguments to ]. Even after saying I don't want to discus this off-wiki he forced it upon me by confronting me in a group of 200-250 Wikipedians and having his arguments posted there. This is the same whatsapp group we were part of. And I have the relevant evidence with me. | |||
| == Disruptive editing by JavierNF96 == | |||
| SerChevalerie also has undisclosed COI with articles such creating and editing his grandfather's article significantly ] and a suspected COI paid editing on article like ]. I have relevant evidence to support this claim. You can also check the latter's talk page where he claims that he "recreated" entirely on the article after it had some issues when it was created, see | |||
| There has been an extensive discussion at the ] talk page regarding the maps on the page, including a productive RfC. Nevertheless, {{userlinks|JavierNF96}} has repeatedly added maps to the page that have been rejected in the discussions, in some cases because the detail on the maps cannot be read. JavierNF96 added rejected maps six times in two weeks, without engaging in the discussion, and while arguing in edit summaries over topics being addressed in the RfC (see , ). (He was blocked during some of that period as well, and he sometimes edits unlogged, as IP 90.94.208.147, which he has been warned about.) He has been asked in edit summaries and ] to discuss but he refuses. He that he “will not enter into the absurd discussion.” Today he has four more times, each time reverted by different editors. This is textbook ]. We have talk page discussions and RfCs specifically to avoid fruitless edit summary arguments. JavierNF96 disregards the discussion, refuses to engage, and continues to make disruptive edits. ] (]) 15:01, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :The : "I will not participate in the absurd discussion," along with his 4RR of the day. ] (]) 15:50, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Under his unlogged IP, JavierNF96 has also been edit warring at -- see warning ]. ] (]) 16:26, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Javier decided to nail his flag to the mast using {{user|JavierANF}} as well. I have blocked the sock indefinitely, and a CheckUser has disposed of the IP. As for the master, I have blocked him for a week, that may have been an act of inappropriate leniency, considering the prompt appearance of {{ipuser|37.29.237.226}}. Beginning to look like ]. ] (]) 18:29, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| He also seems to want a Misplaced Pages article on himself by using his connections and other Wikipedians to help him feature on the news (or possibly paid news) see here {{redacted}}. I find this featured article on him rather suspicious as it was published when SerChevalerie barely returned back to editing after 4 years. | |||
| == StuRat's behaviour on the Reference Desks (again) == | |||
| When I had to quit Misplaced Pages for over 4 months due to my poor mental health because of him, he too wasn't very active on Misplaced Pages as he noticed I wasn't active anymore. You can check his edit history around the months of October and November this made me realise that SerChevalerie might have ] relating to my presence on Misplaced Pages itself. When I returned back to editing in early January this year, I made my first edit on the article ]. The next day he tries to repeat the same behaviour of stalking me and "staying on top" of the page. See . Please note that he didn't have any editing history on this page untill I edited it. | |||
| The recent ] (moved from ANI) is depicted as a problem with the Reference Desks themselves, rather than a problem that could be solved by "silencing one or the other side". I would argue however that this is exactly the solution, and that it has been for several years at least: ban {{user|StuRat}} from the Reference Desks. | |||
| I still feel constantly watched by this editor everytime I am on Misplaced Pages. I want to propose to the community for a block on SerChevalerie or having placed ] on articles that I create so that he stops this behaviour. He also knows my real name and I don't want to get ] or ] by him as we both are from ], India. I'm afraid he might just get my residence address and does any harm. I just want to get rid of this issue and move on. ]<sup>2003</sup>(]) 11:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Complaints against StuRat date back to 2006, when the Reference Desks were indeed what people accuse them of being now, just a random place where people gave random answers and treated it like a personal forum. Back in those days some editors turned it into a useful Reference Desk with referenced answers, and StuRat was opposed and has been opposed ever since - ] | |||
| :I haven't looked at everything, and especially not the off-wiki claims, but I get the impression the behavior issues may not be as one-sided as presented. | |||
| A second RFC was created along the same lines in 2007, when StuRat was mentioned as particularly disruptive - ] | |||
| :{{Blockquote|"During this, I was much subject to ] on major of the articles I created such as ], you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had {{Diff|Tsumyoki|1240530309}} as SerChevalerie would just ], arguing by citing essays like ] instead of finding a resolution or just ]."}} | |||
| :In this talk page you're both volleying policy pages, essays, and vague accusations at each other, but the concerns SerChevalerie raised about this article were not unfounded. It starts from something reasonable, and you both escalate at lightning speed. | |||
| :If I look at your interactions, I'm not sure I see the story of one-sided ]. You both edit similar pages and regularly get into arguments. | |||
| :I don't see you trying to disengage with this user either, you've served him three different level 1 warning templates, now you're escalating to ANI with more inflammatory statements. If you're seriously worried about physical harm, please disregard this and rush to ], but at least in the diffs you've linked, I don't see much credible threat of physical harm. ] (]) 14:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User:TTYDDoopliss and gender-related edits == | |||
| (A 3rd request for comment in 2007 was started and deleted.) | |||
| {{atop|result=Indeffed by Canterbury Tail ] ] 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| <br>I just wanted to add that TTYDDoopliss was found to be the sockpuppet of an editor many of us became familiar with last spring on ANI and the Teahouse. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * {{userlinks|TTYDDoopliss}} | |||
| Summary: Is there a non-male administrator willing to provide some guidance to this editor, particularly in edits related to gender? | |||
| Last year there was a proposal for sanctions against StuRat here on ANI - ] | |||
| The user in question is relatively new. (Yes, an early edit stated she had a previous account, but she used it for roughly one day in December 2024 before {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Teahouse|prev|1265829279|losing her password}}, and she had no warnings at all on the account, so abuse of multiple accounts does not apply here. | |||
| One recent example of unhelpful answers: | |||
| With her new account, she quickly {{Diff|Misplaced Pages:Teahouse|prev|1265829279|received a message alerting her that gender is a contentious topic|diffonly=yes}}, so she is CTOPS/aware of gender issues. After which, she has made edits including: | |||
| I knew that was utter nonsense, easily solved even with a cursory search of information available on Misplaced Pages, nevermind outside references. This is just one thing that I happen to be familiar with and StuRat is not; other users can point out where he makes obvious mistakes in their own areas of expertise. (But this is in fact the problem – when he responds to ''everything'', there’s no way to know if he’s being helpful or not.) | |||
| * This sequence of edits to ]: | |||
| If we attempt to discuss this with StuRat, he believes that he is being unfairly attacked. Telling him that he is wrong or doesn’t know what he’s talking about are seen as “incivility”. Calling him out on the Reference Desk is seen as “arguing in front of the OP”, which is apparently a great sin to be avoided. As a result it is impossible to discuss the issue with him in public or in private. ] (]) 17:15, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ** {{Diff|List of media notable for being in development hell|prev|1270570240|Edit summary: ''men don’t be utterly deprived and ruin women’s lives by being a sex pest challenge (don’t revert if you’re a man, you’re disgusting and I want nothing to do with you guys)''|diffonly=yes}} | |||
| *'''<s>Support</s> Strong support''' <small>(see below)</small> a topic ban from the reference desks, . StuRat's incompetence and refusal to admit that there's any topic in which he's not an expert, coupled with his obsessively single-minded focus on the reference desks () are in my opinion the primary driver of the RDs' reputation as a hive of trolls and incompetents. (I honestly don't even need to provide diffs to support this claim; just .) Given that he's had a decade to do so, I think we've long since passed the point of hoping that he will develop competence over time. Bluntly, if things continue on their present course the Reference Desks will be shut down or moved off-wiki in the relatively near future; without their most disruptive element present, they at least have a chance of becoming the valuable resource they ought to be. ‑ ] 18:32, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ** {{Diff|List of media notable for being in development hell|prev|1270571663|Edit summary: ''Undid revision 1270571008 by C.Fred (talk) how many more women are going to be hurt by continuing to let men like this in the game industry''|diffonly=yes}} | |||
| **Having now seen pointed out below by ], changing to "strong support" for a total ban from the RDs at minimum, and I wouldn't be averse to a complete site ban. "Attitude problem" doesn't begin to cover it; if you really see Misplaced Pages as a "skirmish" in which your task is to defeat "opponents" you're not welcome here, and if you haven't figured this out for yourself after a decade you're never going to. ‑ ] 09:05, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * {{Diff|Dawn M. Bennett|prev|1270573048|To Dawn M. Bennett|diffonly=yes}}, removing an image with the edit summary ''she has cleavage, which means men will want to screw her if they see the image'' | |||
| ***I think the reference to "skirmish" is minimally problematic if problematic at all. Sorry but I think you and ] have got this wrong. ] (]) 16:52, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * {{Diff|User talk:TTYDDoopliss|prev|1270578539|To her own user talk|diffonly=yes}}, removing a thread that included warnings with the edit summary ''please leave me alone, im trying to lessen my suffering as a woman in a male-dominated world'' | |||
| :* ''" the RDs' reputation as a hive of trolls and incompetents."'' {{tl|cn}} | |||
| :: I've no disagreement as to StuRat. However do the RefDesks ''really'' have such a reputation? ] (]) 18:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Certainly, at least among some. While I opposed ], the comments of those arguing in support of shutting it down altogether as beyond salvation—and the not insignificant additional support for allowing it to continue to exist but kicking it off Misplaced Pages—shouldn't be dismissed. ‑ ] 18:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' topic ban. The need to "score points" in regard to a deceased Wikipedian here ] just exacerbates the concerns mentioned above. ]|] 18:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **I'm surprised by your saying "score points". You are misreading the comment containing the reference to "skirmish". Human interaction is often adversarial. Honesty and forthrightness with a tinge of sadness is what I read into StuRat's reference to "skirmish". I think StuRat is bemoaning the fact that someone he once argued with is no longer on this plane of existence. I think you've got to ] when you encounter a colloquialism in their speech. ] (]) 16:52, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***Or "perhaps" I'm reading it correctly. You are free to "cut some slack" or put ] regarding that post. I, and others, are also free to see it as offensive and note it as such in this thread. ]|] 17:21, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ****I said he "will be missed", it was Adam's response to mine that was an attempt to "score points" by baiting me into an argument, but I refused to engage in an argument there. ] (]) 17:27, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *****, or in poor taste? In poor taste or clumsy? ] (]) 17:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ******Or just accurate. ]|] 17:45, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *******No, it is inaccurate. One cannot score points with a deceased person. This is axiomatic. ] (]) 17:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ********I should have mentioned that your pointing out that StuRat treats the R/Ds as "adversarial" and a place to "skirmish" is a good reason that he should be topic banned from posting on them. That is also a good argument for closing them as that is '''not''' what they are for. ]|] 18:48, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::*The process of proposing answers, supporting them, and refuting others is necessarily somewhat adversarial. I, unlike many others, do at least attempt to keep it civil. Compare it to a trial, where each side provides evidence, but neither is allowed to insult the other side. That's the best we can hope for. Incidentally, articles are similar, with a somewhat adversarial atmosphere on their talk pages. Again, the best we can hope for is that everybody keeps it civil. ] (]) 04:46, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I concede her point that, generally speaking, men in the world have done and continue to do pretty crappy things to women. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to ], and IMO, some of her edits are even going counter to the viewpoint she holds. I also know that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social platform, and I worry that her behaviour, unchecked, will result in her crossing a line that gets her blocked, where an admin, regardless of gender, has to stop the disruption. | |||
| *'''Comment''' I've gotta say, the complaint rings true. I only drop in at the ref desk once a year if that. About a month ago I popped in at Ref Desk/Mathematics and sure enough, here's StuRat answering a question (one that should probably not have been answered at all) with complete nonsense on something he obviously knows nothing about {{snd}}obvious to everyone but him, it seems. ''']]''' 18:56, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've sampled StuRat's other contributions and it's true{{snd}}it's mostly more of the same. It's amazing how free he feels to just spout off whatever pops into his head (sometimes preceded by "I'm just guessing...", but usually not). : | |||
| :::{{tq|What did the ] do to people who were ethnically non-Jewish but who converted to Judaism at some point in their lives? Were they killed immediately, were they forced to do hard labor, or were they allowed to denounce their Jewish religion in exchange for getting their lives spared? I know that ethnicity was the main benchmark that Nazis used to determine Jews, rather than religion. Thus people like ] and ] were killed despite being Christians by religion. ] (]) 03:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)}} | |||
| I'd like somebody to reach out to her to give her some advice before it gets to that point, and—while I generally think that any editor can do any job on Misplaced Pages regardless of gender—I think this a situation where a non-male or cisfemale administrator should be the one to make the contact. —''']''' (]) 15:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{tq|I suspect that "Aryan" converts would be treated as "traitors to their race", so just as badly. ] (]) 03:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)}} | |||
| :I was going to suggest that if there's any founded concerns a trans woman would get bitten in this hypothetical interaction then we should probably just ] right now. However then I went and looked at the diffs in question and the discussion that was on the user's talk page and I have to ask: has anyone considered this might all be a troll? ] (]) 15:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::To be blunt, who the fuck cares what StuRat "suspects"? What in the world use does he think his lame-brained armchair guess is? In a he asserts | |||
| ::perhaps my useful non-gender related edits might tip you off to the fact that im not a troll? here’s something non-gender related articles i fixed up: ], ], ] ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{tq|My answer is probably right. If somebody finds a source which says that the Nazis treated those who converted to Judaism significantly differently, then fine, but, failing that, my answer is a good best guess. As such, it's better than no answer at all.}} | |||
| :I think this is a straightforward ] or ] block. Misplaced Pages quite a number of women editors and they seem to be fine and don't seem to experience overt persecution. I just don't see how this user can reasonably be expected to collaborate with others, a core requirement of Misplaced Pages editing, if they're just going to accuse everyone else of being misogynists. ] (]) 16:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::No, see, it's not. His speculations are an embarrassent to the whole project. ''']]''' 22:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them ''removing'' mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. ] (]) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Did you really need to go back over 5 years to find something I said you disagreed with so strongly ? And that "rehash elsewhere" was on my Talk Page, which is the correct place for this type of thing. ] (]) 02:20, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yeah, ] in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. ] (]) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::That's what so sad about it. I picked a random complaint from your talk page, and that egregious example was it. The fact is, everywhere I look in your contributions and talk page it's always the same. Elsewhere in the thread you refer to the various times you ''didn't'' just make something up, but that doesn't help. "Your Honor, in response to the allegation that I'm a terrible doctor who just gives patients random advice, here's a list of some patients I ''didn't'' kill." ''']]''' 03:05, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Actually, that would be a great defense. If a doctor is accused of killing 5 patients, and he only had 10 patients, that's pretty bad. But, if he had 10,000 patients, and only 5 died, that's not so bad, especially if they were very difficult cases to deal with. Ideally, we'd have stats about exactly how many OP's were happy with my answers, but we don't gather such stats, unfortunately. (There is the "thanks" feature added recently, but I doubt if most Ref Desk posters even know it's there, much less how to use it.) And note that most mistakes don't involve "killing the patient", or, in Ref Desk terms, convincing the OP to never use Misplaced Pages again. A typical doctor's mistake, like writing a prescription nobody can read, would be corrected by others asking for a clarification, and nobody dies. Same at the Ref Desk. ] (]) 14:55, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::@] Hrm. So is the inference that you ''willingly and knowingly'' made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —''']''' (]) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Stu - look up QED. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> ]</span> 15:05, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::StuRat, To expand on what Begoon's saying, the confusion in your answer is itself evidence of your failure to get what's wrong after all these years. The appropriate analogy is that you're doctor with 10,000 patients; an attempt to sample various patients' records show that in almost every case looked at your advice is incoherent, outside your specialty, and/or downright dangerous; and in response you list 50 patients who received competent care. So no, that's not a good defense. ''']]''' 18:11, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Honestly I don't think you're in any sort of distress at all. As I think, rather, that you are trolling Misplaced Pages and ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 18:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::If it was truly a random sampling, perhaps (but even then you'd need a large enough sample to avoid sampling errors, which is typically somewhere around 1100, not 5). But, I see no reason to think that any of this is random sampling. Take the diffs from 5 years ago involving NAZIs, am I supposed to think that was just a dart thrown at a board ? No, it's not, it's cherry-picking from a very large base, which can be used to support pretty much any position you want. ] (]) 18:39, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *{{tq|benefit of the doubt}}{{snd}}Pardon me, but what doubt could there possibly be? ]] 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I have a degree in statistics, so you can save your amateur ideas about sampling, given that you were able to assert (as I linked above) that statistics is a "field where you can just memorize formulas and apply them". The significance of the Nazi episode, as with the here's-some-career-advice-though-I-haven't-the-foggiest-clue-what-I'm-talking-about incident, is that ''even now'' you haven't the sense to say, "Yeah, I guess I was way off base with those." No sampling is needed to conclude from that that (a) you don't know your own limitations and (b) you just don't learn. ''']]''' 20:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Surprised they weren't blocked after the vast majority of en.wiki contributors "nerdy men". ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 16:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Was that an invitation to go backwards from the last week and onwards, in order to find similar but more recent issues? That may not have been a wise move. ] (]) 20:24, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::that’s… not an insult? just an observation ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL ] (]) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::“Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I go to the talk pages of articles, no one ever responds. I just operate over ], it’s easier and takes less time. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :i mean you requested “guidance”, everyone else is suggesting indef which is ''not'' what i had in mind when you left this here. id gladly take a gensex topic ban over never being able to edit ever again. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm suspecting trolling, here. ] (]) 17:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for ] violations. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information ''about the exploitation caused by the games industry'' - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make ''women working in the games industry literally less visible,'' seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{tq|I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body}} Be that as it may, leave that attitude at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay.]] 18:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks.]] 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::clearly you’ve never had a ], or ]. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::You've already been told by {{U|Liz}}, so it's up to you now. Either acknowledge and take on the board the advice you have been given, or yes, you will likely be blocked.]] 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::Acknowledge that your past actions were wrong and disruptive, you promise to never do them again, and from here on contribute constructively. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *], I'll cut to the chase rather than participating in a debate over what your motivation is for some of your editing. I'm a female administrator and you've been brought to ANI. While this is sometimes done for frivolous reasons, for the most part, unless vandalism is occurring, complaints are brought here to resolve in order that harsher sanctions won't be necessary. It's an attempt to address problems before a block becomes necessary. There is a view that your glib messages asserting a POV regarding sexism or editors on this project are inappropriate and borderline unacceptable. Can you cease with the personal commentary here? Because if you can not, there will not be a third chance, my Misplaced Pages experience tells me that a block from editing of some duration will be coming your way. So, the choice is up to you at this point. Act professionally and not like Misplaced Pages is some kind of discussion forum, or have your editing privileges removed. | |||
| :And to reinforce this in case it needs to be emphasized, this is not about sexism or gender really, it's about NPOV and disruptive editing. You'd be getting a similar message if you were making side comments about politics, ethnicity, race or any other subjects that cross over into contentious subject areas. These are designated areas where sloppy editing and off-the-cuff comments are sanctioned if the editor can't control her/himself. From a nerdy female editor, <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::is there any other way I can make Misplaced Pages a better place for women? How about a policy like ] but for women? ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 18:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm looking at edit. A perfectly normal picture of a woman was removed with a weird and offensively sexualised edit summary. I can't begin to stress how perfectly normal that picture is. There are two possibilities here. One is that this is anti-feminist trolling under a false flag but the other is that TTYDDoopliss is exactly what she claims to be and was genuinely triggered by a perfectly ordinary picture of a woman at an awards ceremony. If the later then she is clearly in no state to be able to edit Misplaced Pages at this time. Pictures like that turn up all over Misplaced Pages. If we have stronger evidence of deliberate trolling elsewhere then obviously that's an indef (of both the old and new accounts) but if that edit was made in good faith then I think a temporary block would be best for all concerned. It would give TTYDDoopliss an opportunity to come back later if she is well enough, and if she wants to, of course. --] (]) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::There's which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. ] (]) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What we would expect is to find ] compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in ] in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. ] (]) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And, exacerbating this, you were already engaged here with people raising concerns about your widespread disruptive editing, which had been explained to you, before you made this edit. Which makes it quite deliberated disruption. ] (]) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::OK. Now I'm looking at edit and that does seem a lot more like trolling. The edit summary sounds like an anti-feminist parody of a feminist and the actual edit is to remove coverage of an alleged sex offender. Given that sexual misconduct is a serious issue in the video games industry it seems implausible that even the most misguided feminist would try to cover it up. I know that mental illness can express itself in many ways but... I just don't buy it. ] (]) 19:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{tq|I removed it because it made me upset.}} What? Have you read ] and ]? ]<sup>]</sup> 19:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just ], a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::fine ill shut up now ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::: also looks like parody. ] (]) 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the ''male'' protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. ] (]) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No one said or implied any such thing. ] (]) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Women don't exist to fulfill men's needs. That is very true. However desire for a partner can certainly be part of a character's motivation. ] (]) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: actually takes a ] cited statement and rewrites it to say something that the RS did not say not once but twice. In addition, there is the claim that erasing sexual orientation as a possible subject of obsessive and compulsive ideation is somehow reducing heteronormative bias. Which is somewhat contrary to what I would expect from a sincere feminist editor. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: is somewhat better than average. At least the source says, "Insofar as they affect women, bromances, when taken in conjunction with monogamous heterosexual relationships, decrease the burden on women to provide all the care work for their partners." | |||
| :::::::However "all the care work" is paraphrased by Doopliss to "The increasing tolerance of bromances relives pressure on women to be emotionally intimate with men," which is... not... the same thing. But at least I can look at the source, look at the statement and draw a line between them, however tenuous. ] (]) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Also, this too supports my "troll" hypothesis since the very next paragraph of the Chen source begins "Bromances reinforce gender hierarchy, bolster marriage as the goveming, archetypal intimate relationship, and normalize homophobia." So we have an article crtical of bromance being used to praise it for getting men out of womens' hair. ] (]) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I think it's clear some form of block is necessary now. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Because you have disrupted multiple topics. ] (]) 19:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::And that's it. That's the proof that we are being played. An inexperienced user would not be advocating for a topic ban. An inexperienced user would not even know what a topic ban was. This is probably a Gamergate dead-ender yanking our chains. ] (]) 19:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'd suggest a checkuser but what's the point? They are going to get blocked anyway. ] (]) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I know what a topic ban is because I’ve lurked on pages like AN/I before. I’ve been browsing back-end Misplaced Pages pages for years. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::what can I do to make you guys believe me? ] 👻 | ] 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That ship has sailed. ] (]) 19:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I've gone ahead and blocked them. It's clear we're being trolled. They're not only offensively characterising men, they're offensively characterising women and people with mental illnesses. Thay also can't keep their own lies and beliefs straight. We're done here. ] ] 20:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| === Proposal: Indefinite block === | |||
| For disruptive editing and ]. I propose that TTYDDoopliss be indefintely blocked. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Per nom. ] (]) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. Even if they are what they claim to be there is nothing for them here. --] (]) 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. In addition, ] and ]. - ] ] 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' For the reasons and multitudinous diffs cited above I believe this whole dog and pony show is a troll. ] to build an encyclopedia. ] (]) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' per above. I don't mean to be rude, but Wikipedians are a diverse bunch, and some of us are bound to be male. If you can't work collaboratively, you can't work at all. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' because as I said before, whether this user has legitimate intentions behind these edits or is just ], their disruptive editing and refusal to acknowledge their actions shows me that they are ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' per nom ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 19:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Per Nom. The way she characterizes certain mental illnesses is untrue and frankly beyond offensive. ] (]) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - I believe we're being trolled. ] (]) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per nomination - I had initial sympathy but it's just trolling. <span style="background-color: RoyalBlue; border-radius: 1em; padding: 3px 3px 3px 3px;">''']''' <small>]</small></span> 20:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per nom. Good block by CT.]] 20:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support:''' TTYDDoopliss asked, several times over, what she could do to avoid a general block. Over and over again, she refused to respond in the one way that would have helped her: by saying that she'd clean up her act and stop dumping her own issues onto this site. Even if we weren't being trolled, any time an ] person gets cbanned, an angel gets its wings. ] 21:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == ]: ] and ] behaviour. == | |||
| *'''Support''' topic ban. I share EEng's observations. StuRat tends to talk a lot of crap on the RDs, to our detriment. That's damaging, and a topic ban might prevent it. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> ]</span> 19:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Toa Nidhiki05 has been guarding the hell out of the ]. They instantly revert any change against the status quo that they don't like, citing a need for consensus, then don't actually engage with discussions around those edits except to call for moratoriums on even talking about them while spewing bad faith assumptions, or trying to wikilawyer away disagreements. I'm not a long term editor at ] and, frankly, don't want to be, but in the limited number of days I've been editing on this it's clearly an issue. | |||
| *'''Support''', with slight reluctance. The thread EEng links to just above is a doozy, and it's not the only one. My slight reluctance arises from the opinion that a greater problem is a few individuals whose dominant activity on en:wp is asking inane questions on the ref desks (I'm thinking especially of one registered user and one IP). But the proposed topic ban would at least be a start at improving the ] at the ref desks. ] (]) 19:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong Support'''. I really didn't want to end up supporting this, but ] seems to have it just right here. Looking at the recent history of several of the ref desks, I see them swamped by StuRat, answering everything in sight with little competence in the actual subjects of the questions. I also see personal opinions, speculation, off-topic rambling - and even offering nonsensical life advice to someone he doesn't know concerning a subject in which he is clearly not an expert! It's like he's treating the ref desks as his own personal ] column. I'm sad to say it, but I think the ref desks would be better with not so much StuRat in them. ] (]) 20:39, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:I just want to add a few thoughts, partly based on comments from ], below. At the village pump discussion on whether to close the ref desks, I what I saw as a similar situation. ] then that what we're really talking about is ''moderation'', and that's something that's most likely impossible using a community consensus model - a consensus-seeking discussion over the appropriateness of each specific question and answer isn't going to be effective, and I can't see how attempts to reform the way inappropriate contributions are handled as achieving anything other than constant arguing and even edit warring. To get to Bugs' comments, I also strongly dislike the idea of excluding editors from parts of the project - and I'm aware of the fact that many of us here don't contribute at the ref desks and so the view that we shouldn't be telling ref desk people what to do is a reasonable one (though I don't agree with it). The problem I see is that, without the ability to formally moderate the desks, all we have (other than closing the desks) is the very blunt tool of excluding problematic contributors (as identified by community consensus). And as the only real tool we have, I think the only hope for the long-term survival of the ref desks is to use it. ] (]) 11:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:PS: I've updated my support to a strong one, after seeing from ] and reading the linked interaction. ] (]) 11:53, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. My opinion has not changed since my WP:AN report from last year (linked by the OP), and this is one positive step we can make towards making the reference desks salvageable. Hopefully the first of many such steps? ] (]) 20:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. StuRat's contributions to the math reference desk (the only part I frequent) are frequently either wrong or vacuous; misunderstanding the question and providing rambling non-answers after someone else has provided a correct, concise answer with references are common. (Diffs available on request of any administrator.) There's lots of crap behavior on the refdesk, but the sheer volume and consistent poorness of StuRat's contributions makes him an unusually problematic contributor. Also, as several people have noted, he is completely hostile to any attempts to change his behavior. Banning him would certainly be a major improvement. --] (]) 20:48, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' a topic ban. StuRat does seem compelled to answer every question, no matter how inappropriate, posted at the ref desks, but he's not malicious, and he has the ability to contribute constructively when he puts the effort in. He's certainly not alone in the answer every question/tolerate all nonsense crowd, and when these questions are closed, he's not the only one to insist on re-opening them. I'd much rather see an admin close/delete the nonsense threads that he chooses to entertain than punish him for good-faith if over-eager contributions, which can also be handled on an as necessary ''ad hoc'' manner. Nothing more than admonishment and supervision is called for. A topic ban means admins have allowed the matter of nonsense questions to fester too long, and reflect poorly on the overseers as much as the bait-takers. ] (]) 20:53, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Noting ] for context. — ]] 21:03, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::What is the point of your innuendo? You'll notice that the complaint there (closed) was that I remove too much stuff. Does that somehow preclude me from saying admins should be closing nonsense rather than topic banning just a single user who entertains such threads? If anything, the fact that StuRat even voted in favor of banning me from closing nonsense threads (''i.e.,'' we are in strong disagreement, not allies supporting each other) would give ''added'' weight to my argument that topic banning him is not the proper solution. ] (]) 21:13, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''', the problem (which does exist, it's not just StuRat here, most editors there include myself are contributing to the problem to some degree) is caused by the way the Ref Desk is set up, which invites forum like discussions. So, what is happening is to be expected. People who have the time to invest a lot of time in the Ref Desk will end up giving their opinions more. If we take a look at the , you see that the format chosen there works better to address this problem. Comments are separated from answers, answers are judged by a voting system and the OP can choose the best answer. Answerers gain reputation points based on the points they get for their answers. What makes the Ref Desk particularly vulnerable to this problem is the fact that there aren't a lot of questions asked compared to the number of contributors. This makes each new question a de-facto new forum topic for the regulars to start posting on. Perhaps we can do one simple thing to improve things, if all Ref Deskers also start to contribute to StackExchange like , then that may change the way answers are given in general. At least that's my personal experience. ] (]) 21:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: Seems worth noting that so far both oppose votes appear to agree entirely with the substantive analysis of StuRat's behavior, they just think disruptive behavior shouldn't be sanctionable. --] (]) 21:13, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::: yeah, that's kinda where I stand, but I'm starting to wonder ... Stu: being familiar with your hyperactivity at the desks for over ten years now, and being familiar with criticism of your tendency to for an equal period of time ... I've hardly seen any acknowledgement, let alone change of behavior on your part. At the same time, I've seen you give correct and referenced replies. If you agreed to henceforth think and research before you post (which we cannot check) and include references (which we can), or not post at all when you're unable to do either, I would oppose banning you from the desks. ---] ] 21:21, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Look, if someone, say me, is posting something on the Ref Desk that is disruptive, then the first line of action should be to remove those disruptive contributions. If this behavior by me would persist, then it would be a simple straightforward AN/I discussion that would lead to a ban. So, the solution is to intervene on the basis of clear red lines that are based on truly disruptive behavior. Now, StuRat's behavior is, I think, more about him not sticking to informal rules regarding references the other regulars want to stick to, it's not like his behavior is chasing away the OPs who actually ask questions there. '''The last time I looked as his talk page I saw a huge amount of positive feedback from such OPs.''' Should StuRat slow a bit down, especially on topics he's not an expert on? Absolutely, but as long as his contributions are not causing problems, and OPs are able to skip what he's writing if they want references and he's not giving any, then why bother? ] (]) 21:26, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Regarding the {{tq|a huge amount of positive feedback}} on his talkpage, check the timestamps as he keeps anything vaguely complimentary on the page forever. As best I can tell working up from the bottom, the most recent post on his talkpage that ''isn't'' a complaint about his conduct was from you in December 2016, and the most recent post that could be construed as positive feedback is from April 2016. And no, the issue isn't his failure to reference, it's that if he doesn't know the answer to a question he just makes stuff up and then becomes aggressive if anyone points out that he's wrong. ‑ ] 21:39, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::That's not quite an accurate description of my opinion, JBL. I believe the disruption is at root the allowance of nonsense questions (does this suit make me look overdressed?) and requests for advice (how do I open a business?) that should be referred to lawyers and accountants. If such questions were removed, they wouldn't have answers. And currently when such questions are removed, StuRat is far from the only user who will restore them. If Stu gives an off-topic or non-responsive answer, it can be hatted or maybe even, with consensus, be removed on that basis. But the main problem is IP's and newly created accounts adding bullshit to the desks with no oversight. I thing a '''pending edit''' system for IP's and new accounts would go a long way to solving a much bigger problem. If trolls couldn't post without review of their questions, we'd have a lot fewer occasions for this behavior. ] (]) 22:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::An alternative to removing a question is to give a curt but well thought out reply. ''"How do I open a business?"'' Response: In the USA you might start at the website. A google search for "How do I open a business?" reveals several other approaches. End of story. No drama. No need to even hat the question. This requires a behavioral change in those fielding questions at the Reference desks. We should take the blabber out of Reference desk threads. We are not Quora. Our Reference desks are an active extension of the encyclopedia. We should be thinking of ourselves that way. ] (]) 01:19, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' and I look forward to seeing a few other RD regulars removed too as there is far too much social media chit-chat, original thought, and nothing like a real reference desk where responses to questions should '''always''' contain links to Misplaced Pages articles and/or reliable third-party sources. The ref desks have long been a refuge for users who wish to just give opinion, precisely opposite to what an encyclopedia should be doing. ] (]) 22:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' If the refdesks were a separate project, it would be fine for them to adopt whatever procedures work. However, as things stand there are too many refdesk enthusiasts for any reform to be possible and removing particularly troublesome contributors is the only solution available. Misplaced Pages is not the place to pursue liberty or to express the human right of spouting an opinion for every occasion. ] (]) 23:30, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''', as ] correctly points out, answers on the refdesk should be directly related to Misplaced Pages, and supported by sources or at the least other WP articles. I've just done a spot check of some of StuRat's contribs and while what he says isn't totally unreasonable, most of it is personal opinion that has no real value in building this project. That being said, removing this one editor shouldn't stop us from removing other editors that may be problematic at the reference desk. ] <sup>(])</sup> 23:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC). | |||
| *{{big|'''Survey continues at "Resume !voting", below.'''}} | |||
| ===StuRat's response=== | |||
| 1) You start !voting before I even have a chance to make a statement ? Is this proper procedure ? Or are you just ignoring all rules ? | |||
| 2) My account statistics: : | |||
| First edit: 2005-08-05 (so I've been here over 12 years) | |||
| Live edits: 87,634 (of which something like 70,000 are Ref Desk edits) | |||
| (The main thing I'm trying to draw attention to in those diffs is the declaration that an edit "will not be made'. Please see below before taking claims of local consensus at face value) | |||
| My point is, with this many edits, a few are bound to contain mistakes. When I spot them, I try to fix them (I delete them if nobody has yet responded to them or strike them out and post the correction if they have). However, I'm sure those who want me blocked will cherry-pick my 12 years of contributions to find what they consider my worst answers. To counter that, here's a few of my good answers: | |||
| Most recently he decided to just blanket slander multiple editors who disagree with him while again calling for a moratorium on changes he doesn't like. | |||
| (Note that I provide the entire Q and all answers, not just a single diff, to avoid having one edit be taken out of context, like if the word "not" is initially missed, then added a second later. I wish everyone would do the same.) | |||
| More specifically this line: | |||
| As you see, those cover a fairly narrow range in time, as I only collected a list of my good answers for a short time, or this list would be far longer. | |||
| {{tq|Rather than persuade editors, it seems editors are attempting to force these changes through.}} (right below an entire thread that was made before a controversial change specifically to discuss said change) | |||
| 3) I believe in a collaborative approach to answering Ref Desk Q's. That is, one response need not be comprehensive. One person may ask for a clarification of the Q, another may suggest a few possible answers, others may look up sources to support or disqualify those answers, etc. If you disagree with a particular answer, say why, and offer sources to support your view, remaining civil at all times. In the end, we often get to the correct answer, with good refs. I may contribute at any of these steps, depending on the Q. | |||
| 4) I do, however, believe that attacking other editors does not belong on the Ref Desk. Take that the the Ref Desk talk page or to the editor's talk page. That doesn't help to answer the Q in any way. And, civility is important, although I've noticed a great deal of incivility is tolerated, as long as it comes from Admins, but normal users can be blocked for it. So, leave the swearing and insults at home. ] (]) 02:15, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I feel this last one is the most important, because it highlights a pattern of what's been going on here: Toa telling editors a local consensus has been reached, and that they're free to read back, and then citing their own requests obliquely as if they're others ("{{tq|or called for a moratorium on changes}}") and, most importantly, creating an in-group of who is allowed to weigh in on article content ({{tq|Only one active discussion-engaged user}}). Other editors, like @], have been calling them out for this as well. | |||
| :Howdy StuRat. I peaked at your editing pie chart & my goodness, you need to spend way more time on 'main space' editing. Too much participation in <u>any</u> forms of discussions on Misplaced Pages, is not a good thing. ] (]) 03:22, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Note, actually doing what Toa asks and looking back through old talk page discussions on this largely results in finding Toa telling people the same thing then, too. | |||
| ::The pie chart shouldn't matter. He has more mainspace edits than the vast majority of users, and plenty of people contribute to the project in ways that don't happen in mainspace. The issue is treating the Reference Desk like Yahoo Answers, which is an issue with StuRat on the Reference Desk rather than StuRat on Misplaced Pages... — <tt>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></tt> \\ 04:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : ''" a few are bound to contain mistakes."'' - so show us the good stuff. ] (]) 20:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| There's a content dispute under-riding most of this, which frankly is probably best adjudicated at this point by literally anyone other than Toa or myself. The meat of this ANI is wholly independent of the content dispute, except insofar as Toa's apparently not been engaging in the most NPOV way with editors when it comes to sourcing requirements. I want to point out that despite Toa's reality-bending insistence I've been pretty open to admitting a different proposal for a change from others was better than my own idea. In an attempt to placate his revert-happy self on what I was sure would be controversial (removing 'conservative' from the dominant ideology of the party) I started by making a discussion thread highlighting that the sources that were being used didn't make that claim, including direct quotes from the papers. Except for admonishing editors for wanting change, he's mostly elected to just straight up ignore any substantive discussion over the exact thing he's reverting. This is clearly OWN and POV editing, and it looks like previous attempts to caution him for edit warring were met with ''. I'd honestly like to bow out of editing that page entirely for a while for ''so'' many reasons, but I don't want to leave it in a state where one editor has declared an article theirs. ] 15:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ===Resume !voting=== | |||
| The page-in-question ''should'' be stable & at status quo. Best to work out content disputes on the page-in-questions' talkpage. ] (]) 15:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. The crux of the problem is not individual editors. The Reference desks should be thought of as an active extension of the encyclopedia. If such a standard were truly applied many more editors would fall short of it. We have not articulated and broadly promulgated guidelines on how questions are to be fielded on our Reference desks aside from a few suggestions. Doing that would be the first order of business, before we go willy-nilly topic-banning editors. StuRat edits in good faith when he fields questions on the Reference desk and some of his responses display great knowledgeability of a topic. And he edits without a trace of meanness. ] (]) 02:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Um, there are ].--] (]) 06:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - My rationale for opposing: 1) StuRat's main interest on en-Misplaced Pages appears to be the refdesks. If their behavior is so problematic, a total block+ban would be appropriate. I suppose that some could suggest a NOTHERE (to build the encyclopedia) ban, that'd be another discussion. 2) The reference desks are traditionally and de-facto more free than other talk pages and articles. Other comments can correct wrong answers or expand on them and some may be hatted by other editors. 3) I evaluated some of StuRat's comments as intelligent and informative, others were more speculative or unnecessary. People have opinions and make mistakes. 4) Other regulars display similar behavior. Attempting to reform the refdesks may be more constructive than to ban select editors. Clear policy-based reasons could then apply if effecting reverts, hattings or bans. On the other hand, it's possible that an overly rigid environment would ruin the welcoming atmosphere of the desks (for posting requests and/or answering them)... In any case, I don't find that StuRat's presence makes it any harder to ask questions or post answers. —]] – 03:12, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' as nothing but the periodic scapegoating that certain ref desk editors attempt. I've had some issues with StuRat's approach, but I take those issues to his talk page. Too many editors feel free to attack StuRat in front of the OP's, and that is not kosher. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 03:26, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: I prefer to see this as a first step to cleaning up the reference desk yuk yuk comedy club. Let's just "scapegoat" each and every funster out the door, starting with this one, and see what we have left. ] (]) 16:30, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong Support'''--Per TRM and Iridescent.And as Lankiveil says, removing this one editor shouldn't stop us from removing other editors who are problematic at the reference desk.Let the reformation begin with his t-ban!]<sup>]</sup> 06:45, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **Once you've gotten rid of anybody who's not in the clique, who will you go after then? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 07:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***{{Re|Baseball Bugs}}--Are you willing to clarify what you exactly refer to by the use of the word ''clique''?Regards:)And, I am not ''going after'' anybody.]<sup>]</sup> 08:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ****The ones who have decided that they own the ref desks. They attack other editors in front of the OP and condemn attempts to rein in BLP violations and the giving out of professional advice. And every few months, they try to get somebody they don't like banned. This is one of those times. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 08:29, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *****I don't believe ''any-body'' who is supporting here believes themselves to be the ''owner'' of Ref-Desk.This thread is purely about StuRat's frequently-incompetent-mass-answering at RefDesks.And, please don't post random accusations without corresponding diffs.]<sup>]</sup> 08:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ******That's funny. Well, let's start with Kudpung's attack on StuRat in front of the OP, and your defense of that attack. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 08:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *******Lovely! Any prize(s) for being the ''owner'' of the ref-desk? Regards:)]<sup>]</sup> 09:04, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ********Yes. As a ref desk owner, you get to violate the rules. Tell me what Kudpung's shot at StuRat has to do with answering the OP's question. Wait, I'll tell you: ''Nothing.'' So how does he get away with it? Because his name isn't StuRat. That's how. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 09:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::{{U|Baseball Bugs}}, you don't even have the common decency to ping me when you are PA'ing me behind my back. So you finally admit that as a ref desk owner you are entitled to violate the rules. That's really all we need to know.. ] (]) 09:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::Sorry, I just assumed you had this on your watch list - and the last time I pinged someone I got yelled at for it. No, I do not own the ref desks. I am not part of the clique. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::No one owns the Reference Desk and there is no clique, but this reflexive assumption that you are being oppressed by a devious cabal is part of the problem. ] (]) 13:15, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::No one is oppressing me in particular. But the clique raises this red flag every few months, in an attempt to get rid of users they don't like. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't think that the content dispute should be decided here. To be clear, 99% of the content dispute is moving one sentence earlier in the article and removing a source that failed verification. We're not talking about seeing how fast we can invoke Godwin's Law in a page about the GOP (though admittedly some editors are). I genuinely don't think the content in question actually substantial at all, which is why one editor increasingly spiralling into mudslinging over it while refusing to discuss changes beyond categorical rejection or highly mobile goalposts for inclusion is a problem. ] 15:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| '''Support''', per {{U|Boing! said Zebedee}} and others. Before I voted on the RfC, I went to the RD because I had I never been there before. Frankly I was appalled with what I found. Apart from a few intelligent answers from a few genuine subject specialists - that also were not to appropriate questions either - what stood out more than anything else were Stu Rat's incessant chiming in wherever he could just to get his name on the thread. His pie chart clearly demonstrates that he has very little interest in building this encyclopedia. ] (]) 10:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I am out of town, and don't have time to reply fully to all of this. But the general dispute ongoing at the page is twofold: {{u|Warrenmck}} wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right", and they want "conservatism" to be removed as a majority faction. There doesn't appear to be support for either of these things (an ongoing RfC on the "far-right" designation is trending a pretty strong consensus in opposition, and removing conservatism appears to be equally unlikely to reach consensus). This is a content dispute involving, at this point, probably at least a dozen editors, and should be resolved on the page. | |||
| *'''Support''' I was looking into the RefDesk futher after seeing the RFC on closing it when I observed StuRat’s random advice and opinions. I see this is a long term problem, and that he also abuses the refdesk to ask for shopping advice . The fact other editors abuse the ref desk as a forum is not a valid excuse to not deal with a specific user that prolifically posts on topics they know nothing about. Based on the ownership behavior immediately above, we should look at ]’s for the next topic ban. ] (]) 10:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :What {{u|Warrenmck}} does not seem to understand is that changing political positions on pages is something that comes up ''all the time''. None of the arguments presented have been new, and a local consensus has been developed with the collaboration of many editors. This took a lot of hard work and compromise to reach. | |||
| :::{{ping|Legacypac}}, you've linked to an indefinitely blocked impersonator, giving the impression that ] has been banned, when it is the troll ] that is banned. Please correct this. ] (]) 15:13, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :For editors like myself - who worked on the present consensus versions - this is not a fresh, new discussion. It's more or less an endless string of discussions that have been ongoing for years. This is why several other editors - not just myself (and I'm not even the one who came up with the idea - that was {{u|Czello}}. I was actually the third to support one) have supported a moratorium on said discussions. There is nothing wrong with discussing a moratorium on repetitive topics that repeatedly emerge on talk pages. | |||
| :::::Thank-you. I’ve fixed the link ] (]) 15:25, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I will also note that, I have not, in fact, blindly opposed any changes to the article. I did not object when “right-wing populism” was added as a majority faction; I didn’t even participate in the discussion, iirc, because it was such an obvious changed. And in this discussion I've ''added'' additional citations to address {{u|Warrenmck}}'s concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes. It goes without saying that the article is not mine, I have never claimed it is mine, and I have no interest in subverting or going against whatever consensus is reached through talk page discussions, rather than brute force. '''] ]''' 15:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*In fairness, I think (], correct me if I'm wrong) that what Bugs is saying is that those supporting a ban on StuRat are trying to take ownership of the ref desk, not that he's the owner of the RD so should have final say over to whom and when the rules apply, although I agree the wording is ambiguous. Assuming the former is what was meant, that's a legitimate point of view ("why do all these outsiders think they know better about how to solve the problems than someone like me who's spent a lot of time there and is more familiar with it?"), even if it's a view with which I disagree in this case. ‑ ] 10:27, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Once again, what I was calling for was including "far right" as a ''minor faction'', per the an absolute ocean of reliable sources. Even you explicitly stated in the RfC it's a minor ideology. You've accused me of wanting to make the page about the republicans being far right multiple times now, and the only time you've responded to me saying that 's not what I'm doing here was to say that having it on the page at all slanders the party as that | |||
| ::*I don't know what Legacypac is talking about, although he himself is demonstrating some ownership just within the last hour or two: This, for one; and also this, which was reverted by an admin. I don't own the ref desks by any stretch. I am not part of the clique. When the subject of whether to close the ref desks came up, I gave it a "soft support" on the theory that closing it down would at least remove the recurring scapegoating that goes on there (and here too, at present). ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 12:04, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{quote|Except the RfC isn’t about labelling the party far right, it’s about naming it as a minor ideology, which you here acknowledge?}} | |||
| :::I woudn't personally use the fact that they were "closed by an admin" as particularly proof-laden; it was a poor series of reverts, and rather embarassing, frankly, from one with advanced permissions. But I get your general drift. — ]] 12:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::and you responded | |||
| ::::Unfortunately, this is par for the course. What starts as a small request (get Medeis to stop closing Ref Desk threads for reasons like "this doesn't need to be archived"), spins completely out of control into attempts to close down the entire Ref Desk, and now ban particular users. Asking Admins for help is like summoning a ], they end up just trying to destroy everything. This has happened before. And the reason to mention that it was reverted by an Admin is that these reverts will likely stand, while if a normal user dared to revert him, they might get blocked for it. ] (]) 16:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{quote|Which is labeling the party as it.}} | |||
| ::Which isn't how NPOV editing works. | |||
| ::Beyond that I simply don't believe that Toa is accurately representing the discussions that are there now or the historical discussions around local consensus. | |||
| ::{{tq|I will also note that, I have not, in fact, opposed any changes. In fact, I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes}} | |||
| ::Please, any admin reading this exact quoted line, immediately go look at Toa's engagement on this exact point . Toa added a source paper, I read the source paper, removed it because it simply didn't make the claim it was being used to make, and instantly started a discussion thread asking for sources and explicitly explaining my removal. ''I did not make the change I knew would be controversial'', that was a different editor later. I also quoted the specific line in the paper which discussed why it wasn't an approprioate source for the claim it was being used for in my removal () Which Toa almost completely ignored. This is simply not an accurate recounting of events. | |||
| ::This is why I think this is an ANI issue. Toa routinely misrepresents or overstates consensus and historical discussions, while running off editors who don't agree, then claiming that only the long term editors should have a meaningful say. ] 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please find a time where I said you “want to make the page about the Republicans being far right”. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that. I have said you clearly have strong views about the subject, though. | |||
| :::What you are referencing was a typo. Notice that it’s not even a complete sentence? '''] ]''' 16:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Literally in this ANI: | |||
| ::::{{tq|Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right"}} | |||
| ::::That is not the same thing as defining far-right as a minor ideology of the party. Also from the talk page: | |||
| ::::{{tq|Its exclusion is not odd, as academic sources do not widely or generally or even often refer to the party as far-right, which is typically associated with literal fascism or Nazism. Believe it or not, this has been discussed dozens of times - including several in the last few months - and editors have reached a consensus that academic sources broadly refer to the party as center-right or right-wing.}} ] 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You are making a distinction without a difference. '''] ]''' 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Involved: These are content disputes and should be dealt with at that level. ] (]) 16:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * ] appears to have been exceedingly cordial and professional in the differences you provided above. I see no wrongdoing on their part. ] ] 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Mainly per Boing! and Iredescent, whose collective reasoning I find wholly convincing. I note too that the opposes are more opposing action against the ref desks as a whole rather than a specific editor; they are not therefore opposing the actual question. StuRat is unfortunately- but clearly- as an editor, one the RefDesks will find themselves the better off without. There are of course others, of a similar vintage- some of whom have commented in these proceedings- and I have no doubt that similar concerns will be raised regarding them in the future. That way, perhaps the desks will remain open and actually contribute to the encyclopaedia. Iridecnt, I think you are correct in your reading of BB's comment- to those remarks I find myself tempted to answer that if those who have been there such a long time haven't yet managed to solve the issues, then they probably never will! — ]] 11:19, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:I cannot disagree, except I think that speaking authoritatively about how a change will not be done regardless of sources provided simply breaks ]: | |||
| *:{{quote|An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.}} | |||
| *:The other problem is that the consensus they're pointing to doesn't seem to substantially exist. There's an abundance of "go see the old discussions" which themselves say "go see the old discussions" and so on. It's artificial, and it's being used to prevent edits that users don't like, as opposed to edits they can substantively object to. Seriously, just look at his presentation of these previous discussions here ] and go back in the archives. While I'm sure there were discussions at some (possibly many) points, there's a ''hell'' of a lot of reliable sources being objected to there on a house of cards. | |||
| *:Additionally, I think that's masking the fact that they're simply refusing to engage editors while reverting the article to the status quo. They're basically holding the article hostage by pointing people to an ongoing discussion they're not engaging in (, or on the talk pages with "see previous discussion" as a threadkiller). So the choice editors are left with is to edit war over an inclusion, or give up. The issue isn't that there's a content dispute here, it's that someone has ]ed their way into objecting to a specific edit on an ongoing basis, always maintaining a layer of "content dispute". As ] said, {{tq|"Do you have a content-based case to make here or do you just declare editor's contributions to be "low quality" if you disagree with them?"}} ] 16:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. ] 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place ''after'' I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer ] problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an ] mentality. ] (]) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::@] appears to be actively involved in this, and there's comments on their guarding against "far right" in the article going back at least two years of the same argumentation pattern and misrepresenting sourcing requirements and consensus. and . I agree this seems more like a CPUSH. For example, this was directed at Springee from the last diff: | |||
| *::::{{tq|The same failed arguments have been made in several similar discussions of late}} | |||
| *::::Basically, the patten we're seeing at Republican Party (United States) appears to be ongoing with several of the key users objecting to changes on identical grounds year after year without ever really explaining why these aren't open for discussion in light of sourcing standards. @] appears to be engaging in an identical pattern in many of the same articles. TFD, Toa, and Springee show up ''all over''[REDACTED] making the same tortured arguments around academic sourcing and consensus when someone mentions "far-right" in an article. Every single time it's a complete slamming of the door of the possibility that RS could ever be met for the inclusion of information they deem controversial. ] 13:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. ] (]) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *::::::Sorry, being vague wasn't my intention. I think you're engaging in the same CPUSH behaviour as Toa, just maintaining civility much better. It's possible to find ''years'' worth of identical argumentation from you on this across many articles, always with the same anything-other-than-excluding-content-is-unacceptable, and above you're continuing the relatively nonsensical arguments from Toa with Simonm223 in asking for unique sourcing standards for a claim you really don't like. You pick this fight very consistently on Misplaced Pages, usually with the same arguments. | |||
| *::::::If I'm way out of line here I'm fine accepting a boomerang, but I see several editors going way off the deep end in trying to prevent a very specific change to articles on Misplaced Pages that seems to be coming from a place of stonewalling ] 14:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:::::::I hope my arguments have been consistent because I try to pay strict adherence to content policy and guidelines. ] (]) 17:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Accusing other editors of making "low quality" edits instead of making an argument isn't helpful or professional, and neither is demanding a unique standard for edits one is opposed to. ] (]) 17:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * This is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article. This discussion should be closed. ] (]) 19:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *:Respectfully ] and ] are behavioural problems. ] (]) 20:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :As a comment, Toa’s response to multiple users adding failed verification tag was to go tag all the sources making a political claim they don’t like as failing verification en masse (). | |||
| *'''Support''' Too many problems. ] ] 12:15, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :while these all on their own may be legitimate tags (though other editors have been removing some tags as apparently they did pass verification) I think taking this in the context of them actually refusing to discuss the failed verification tag that lead to this spree ''at all'' makes this pretty ] behaviour to me. If Toa wants to discuss bad edits, that’s good and fine. But they can’t have a policy of using bad edits from other people to deflect from any discussion around edits they themselves feel are valid. Apparently he doesn't have enough time to fully engage with this ANI or any of the discussions around his own edits, but does have enough time to read dozens of articles and point by point articulate his issue with each over at the talk page for ]. ] 08:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' - Misplaced Pages is not Yahoo Answers. Many people have tried many times to reason with StuRat to stop shooting from the hip to answer as many questions as possible, but to no avail, and this is where things are now. Sadly, I think that StuRat means well and I don't doubt that there are some people he has helped, but he's shown no interest in changing his guesswork approach to the desks. — <tt>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></tt> \\ 15:09, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Comment:''' ] for this exact behaviour in 2022. The reason given at the time was | |||
| * '''Support''' topic ban - It's time to clean up the reference desk. I took a quick, random spin through some of StuRat's edit history and saw lots of personal opinions offered to trivia questions, which might be an entertaining pursuit but which certainly doesn't help build an encyclopedia. I also found , in which when someone attempted to remove a thread started by a troll about whether someone can "burn their own fluff with a blowtorch." StuRat reinstalled the garbage with a call for a topic ban for the remover. Well, the shoe's on the other foot now. Let's get this guy out of that section as a first step to cleaning up the shop for what it is supposed to be for — a venue for legitimate questions to be asked and factually answered. ] (]) 16:25, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{quote|Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it.}} | |||
| * '''Support''' TBAN as per above. A reasonable approach to improve the signal-to-noise ratio, and necessary as no lesser remedy is likely to be effective. Procedurally, indef with a 6 month wait before an appeal sounds right. ] (], ]) 16:45, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :This is the same pattern of behaviour he's accused of here, for the same thing, and that resulted in an indefinite TBAN. Springee and TFD are again involved there, as well. This should make it pretty clear that, civility aside, this is a problem. A long, ongoing one. ] 14:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support TBAN'''. From the diffs below and the comments here, it is clear that StuRat has exhausted the community's patience over many years. Ultimately, his approach to this project and RD suggests that he's ], but I'd prefer to give him rope. No reason to ban him from non-RD pages unless he causes disruption there. ] 18:03, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to ] more than ]. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. ] (]) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support temporary ban''' from the refdesks. One of the reasons StuRat continues to disrupt the RefDesks with wild guessing and providing factually incorrect information is that the community as a whole has never told him that he can’t. Many editors have asked him many times to stop, but he also has his supporters. If the community as a whole finally decides that StuRat needs to reform his RefDesk behavior, he should be given the opportunity to do so. | |||
| :::Honestly I agree having seen more of this being a systematic issue since making this ANI. ] 14:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Perhaps the issue is that good faith editor don't agree. A failure to get consensus to add a controversial claim is hardly proof of CPUSH. Additionally as the number of accused editors goes up it looks more like a true content dispute vs a single editor problem. I will also note that Toa has done quite a bit to review some of the references used to support the disputed changes and makes a good case that they don't support the claims within the edits being pushed into the article. ] (]) 14:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. ] (]) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::{{tq|Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy.}} | |||
| ::::And ''very clearly'' retaliatory. ] 14:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings. Per ]: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". If the source does not back up the cited claim, it shouldn't be used. This is... pretty ordinary stuff, actually. | |||
| :::::You'll notice I did not remove the broader claims, or change the in-article text. All I have done is trim sources that do not back up the claim given, which is something Misplaced Pages citations are required to do. If you reaction to a source review that results in no changes to prose is to file a report rather than discuss, challenge, or revert, you might have a hard time being successful with that. '''] ]''' 15:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{tq|You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings}} | |||
| ::::::Would you please provide the diff where you substantively responded to a thread made directly about a source you added not passing verification, which you were pinged in and did actually participate without addressing the substance of? Because that would go a long way towards convincing me this isn't a smokescreen of policy to mask more sealioning in a thin veneer of civility and plausible deniability. How about addressing any of the comments providing the ''exact'' types of sources you were asked for? When I did provide a reason and eventually reverted your addition, you just reverted with "nah it didn't fail verification" ignoring both the edit summary prior and the entire talk page discussion about the entire situation. As I said there, neither I nor any other editor personally needs to run improvements on the article through you, personally. If you object without engaging or explaining, it's perfectly reasonable for editors to simply ignore your perspectives. ] 15:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. '''] ]''' 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::No. The content dispute isn't the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I don't agree with {{U|Springee}} about some of their interpretations of appropriate content but I don't think their comportment is problematic except in as far as it gives cover to yours. Rather it's two things: how you insist sources should be interpreted and how you engage with other editors that has become disruptive. ] (]) 15:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The diff I asked for had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with you attempting to paint other editors as sidestepping a process you yourself have refused to engage in as a matter of policy, apparently going back far enough for you to have already received an indef TBAN for ''the exact same behaviour''. ] 15:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::As a perfect example, in this diff they claim that the New York Times piece does not support referring to the Republican party as right-wing populist. <s>This is because it says that the party isn't ''just'' a touch more populist. It then compares the Republican party under Trump to the racist populist ] and the fascist propagandist ]. This, to me, is more than sufficient to support "right-wing populism" but, because the article uses simile, Toa Nidhiki05 calls it a "Gish Gallop". </s>] (]) 15:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Ok here's the correct quote now: {{tq|The overarching pattern is clear. In election after election, Democrats underperformed among traditional Democratic constituencies during the Trump era. Sometimes, it was merely a failure to capitalize on his unpopularity. Other times, it was a staggering decline in support. Together, it has shattered Democratic dreams of building a new majority with the rise of a new generation of young and nonwhite voters.<br /> This overarching pattern requires an overarching explanation: Mr. Trump’s populist conservatism corroded the foundations of the Democratic Party’s appeal. It tapped into many of the issues and themes that once made these voters Democrats.<br /> While the damage was mostly concealed by Mr. Trump’s unpopularity, the backlash to his norm-shattering presidency drew the Democratic Party even further from its traditional roots. The extent of that damage is now clear.}} | |||
| ::::::Now this article does compare the ''Democratic party'' as a whole to ''Trump'' on a purely linguistic level. However context matters here. The first line of the article is {{tq|It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it.}} The NYT has as table-stakes that the Republicans were transformed by Trump. In this context I think it's a reasonable argument that "Trump" here is a stand-in for the party of Trump. ] (]) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also, the ''New York Times'' introduces the article by saying, "Nate Cohn, The Times’s chief political analyst, makes sense of the latest political data." ] says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Therefore this is not an acceptable source. | |||
| :::::::It disruptive that so many unreliable sources have been presented in the discussion pages. It wastes edtiors' time as they discuss sources that cannot be used. | |||
| :::::::My suggestion is that going forward, unreliable sources that are presented should be struck out and editors who persist in presenting them should face sanctions. That will allow editors to focus on what reliable sources say. ] (]) 16:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what ] says {{tq|When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.}} ] (]) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::In this case the author is a journalist with a BA in politics IOW he has the same background one would expect for the writer of an analysis in a newspaper. Furthermore, when policy says that this type of source is "rarely reliable," the onus is on the person presenting it to explain why it should be deemed reliable. ] (]) 17:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page. Maybe it would be best if editors heavily involved there, would avoid each other & allow newcomers room to give their input. Might lower the heat. ] (]) 16:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :It should be clear to anyone looking at StuRat’s talk page that there is a problem, but often a problem is brought (inappropriately) to StuRat’s attention in RefDesk mainspace rather than on his talk page, and often his bad answers are simply ignored, so one must go to the RefDesk to really appreciate the scale of the problem. Here’s a recent example of a wild guess that turned out to be wrong . See the hatted portion of ] for the disruption that it caused. | |||
| :{{tq|Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page.}} | |||
| :While many editors have expressed dismay at StuRat’s wild guessing and incorrect answers, few point out exactly which guidelines are being violated. (To their credit, the RefDesk regulars do not seem to be a particularly litigious bunch, or maybe I just don’t frequent the right drama boards). From the ]: “We expect responses that not only answer the question, but are also factually correct, and to refrain from responding with answers that are based on guesswork.” Everyone is entitled to get an answer wrong once in a while, and even the occasional speculation can be useful. StuRat takes a more extreme position and actively defends his right to throw out wild guesses. Amongst the myriad complaints about StuRat’s RefDesk behavior, try to find him acknowledging that he has some responsibility for the quality of his own answers. | |||
| :It isn't, for what it's worth. It's about a consistent pattern of behaviours going back years that came out, mostly, in the thread after the RfC, though partially there as well. Beyond that, good call. ] 16:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Is this the type of report that would be better addressed at ]? ~~ ] (]) 16:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you have any suggestions for any way to get StuRat to understand what just about everyone here is telling him and to get some commitment to change his ways, I'd love to hear it (and if I thought it was realistic, I'd support it enthusiastically). But every response I've seen so far from him is "''I'm right, you're all wrong''". You can't get someone to change their ways if they won't even consider that they might be doing something badly. ] (]) 19:53, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't have much to add. I agree that StuRat's inability to admit that he is doing anything wrong is a huge problem. But sometimes people can do what they have to do, even if they don't like it. I don't think anything less than a temporary TBAN will get him to reform, and it will probably take a long one. But as far as I know, in StuRat's decade of problematic behavior at the RefDesk, this obvious solution has never been applied. This is largely due to StuRat's resistance to even the suggestion that a change is needed, but I think the TBAN does need to be given an opportunity to work the first time it is tried.--] (]) 01:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Frankly, probably? I misjudged how long this had been going on and the scale of it. ] 17:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * <s>'''Oppose'''</s> I recognise the problem, for sure. However the ref desks are clearly close to StuRat's heart and I'm unwilling to call for a topic ban on such as yet. Instead I'd like to see some sort of formal advice to StuRat, with their agreement, that they would only respond ''appropriately'' to refdesk questions, adding material where they can contribute positively with some degree of accuracy, and/or where they can be this by reliance on external material (either WP or off WP). No specific restriction on asking questions. | |||
| : |
::I think it would be better suited to AE except that it's here now and AE tends not to like having an issue open at two venues. ] (]) 17:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::I don't see why you consider this a behavioral issue rather than a content dispute. I follow a lot of articles that attract editors with fringe views: fascism is left-wing, cultural marxism and Jewish bolshevism are not just conspiracy theories, aspartame is dangerous, climate science is unsettled, etc. Some editors explain why these views are wrong, while others point to previous discussions. | |||
| ::* OK, on the basis of the section and my comment below, I think this is unworkable and so I'd now '''support''' a TBAN. ] (]) 00:46, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::If anyone should be banned, it isn't editors who insist that articles reflect reliable sources, but editors who try to inject fringe theories unsupported by reliable sources. | |||
| **'''Comment''' I would support such a proposal (a form of editing restriction rather than an outright TBAN), provided it was clear that any significant violation would lead swiftly to a TBAN without having to go through this sort of discussion again, and, more importantly, that StuRat acknowledges his behaviour is unacceptable. I don't see him doing that in his current contributions to the discussion, or any previous discussions of the same issue. ] (]) 22:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::On your user page, you mention that you have written peer-reviewed articles in geophysics and vulcanology. Certainly you would not rely on an analysis by a journalist as reliable in those papers. For example, you would not use it for explaining why a particular volcano erupted. ] (]) 20:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. ] (]) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| If I am following this properly, via the thread on the linked talk page: | |||
| # The OP made a thread on ] saying that we should change the article to say that it was "anti-intellectual" and "far-right". | |||
| # Toa_Nidhiki05 said that this was a bad idea, and some stuff about previous consensus against doing this. | |||
| # ??? | |||
| # AN/I thread | |||
| Is there anything I'm missing here? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Sealioning, a previous TBAN for identical behaviour, and multiple editors weighing in saying this is a CPUSH issue? ] 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support topic ban''' and StuRat can appeal after six months. If he shows that he has been answering questions appropriately with references at other venues then this would go a long way in convincing the community that he has reformed and could return to the RefDesks without returning to the old behavior. Other venues where he could help include ], ] (great place to supply answers that have been looked up) or ] if he stays focused on helpful answers without excess commentary. There are plenty of other places to help and folks here might be willing to provide more suggestions. Some have called for the RefDesks to be shut down and others have opposed them but even they call for reform. If the RefDesks mean that much to him, he should be willing to step away from it for ''its'' own best interests. In six months time, if there are still problems at the RefDesks no one will be able to blame him for those.<br /> — ] ] 21:31, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::You've said I'm guilty of sealioning three times in this thread, but as far as I can tell you haven't actually defined what you think that means, or what I've done. It's a pretty specific set of behavior - can you explain what I've done that qualifies as sealioning? | |||
| ::But to answer JPxG: yeah, that's essentially it. Like I said above, it doesn't look like either of Warrenmck's proposed changes will make it into the article, and I'm surprised this content dispute hasn't been closed yet. '''] ]''' 23:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Repeated WP:GS/AA violations == | |||
| * For those keeping score at home: so far there are 0 people who have stepped forward to defend StuRat's edits as a net positive for Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 21:57, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **To do this right, you'd need to look at all of StuRat's edits for some interval, such as the last few weeks. Then look at the edits of other users for the same interval. Then see what percentage of each user's edits actually help lead the OP to the right answer, assuming there is a right answer. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 07:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| On , I informed ] about the ] extended confirmed restriction and explained what it meant. | |||
| *'''Oppose''' I am of much the same opinion as Andy Dingley. I will note that sturat does have quite a collection of barnstars and thankyous for answering questions, so certainly he gets a good answer in there sometimes. However there are also several barnstars for humor. So it would be good if the large number of unhelpful answers are avoided, and answers are only given where he really has a '''good''' answer. ] (]) 22:02, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:As I suggested to someone else, if you have any practical suggestions for how to actually get him to avoid all the unhelpful answers and only reply when he has a '''good''' answer, let's hear them - I'll support you if you can come up with something feasible. ] (]) 22:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support temporary topic ban''': ''I believe in a collaborative approach to answering Ref Desk Q's'' (StuRat, above). That means you acknowledge the existence of a Ref Desk community. Nobody can remain a member of any community with impunity from its norms, protocols, procedures, policies, practices, laws or guidelines. Yet your behaviour time and time again puts you in the spotlight of criticism. Yet you always defend yourself. <br> I have never seen you say: ''Hmm, maybe you guys actually have a point. Maybe I could take a look at my ''modus operandi'' and see where I could modify it, so that I won't forever be having to defend myself from the complaints of my colleagues''. <br>If all the critics don't actually have a point, what are their criticisms actually all about? Personal dislike of you? someone they've never met and will probably never meet? Hardly. What else could it be? You tell me.<br> But then, maybe you like being in the spotlight of criticism. Some people are like that. They have a deficit need, and will accept - nay, ''go out of their way to attract'' - any attention, no matter how adverse, as long as the focus is on them. To prolong the spotlight, they will argue for as long as there is breath in their body, never giving an inch. I suspect that this is the case with you. But whether that's the case or not, one thing is sure: '''You have to change'''. If a topic ban is what it takes to get you to see this, then so be it. I don't believe I've ever voted to ban anyone from Misplaced Pages before. There's a first time for everything, I guess. I do this reluctantly, because you do often play by the rules. But a murderer cannot be excused from the weight of the law by arguing they've been kind to countless little old ladies. -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 22:09, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*Actually, I do take advice from others, as I just did here, striking my comments from Baseball Bugs' talk page: . Note that the editor I took the advice from was actually civil, making it far easier to listen. ] (]) 04:54, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::* ''Yet you always defend yourself''. -- ] </sup></font></span>]] 06:07, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::*When you're attacked, do you defend yourself? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 07:04, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Not when I realize I'm in the wrong. ''']]''' 07:19, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::* The form of defence I'm talking about is complete denial. If 50 editors told me that over a period of 10 or more years I have consistently violated the acceptable practices of the Ref Desk, my response would not be "I'm the only one in step". That is, effectively, StuRat's response to all such claims. We never get to first base with him. We never hear from him that there are things he needs to take responsibility for. He will happily pull out numerous examples of where he has done something ''other than'' what is being claimed about him, but that still leaves the multiple cases where the claims are accurate, yet he never accepts any criticism of his behaviour in relation to those instances. It's "I'm right when I don't do X, and I'm right when I do do X". The remainder of the Ref Desk community has a different view.-- ] </sup></font></span>]] 07:30, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Scherbatsky12 still created several articles or made expansions in areas covered by ] such as the following: ], ], ], and made poorly sourced POV additions such as: | |||
| *'''Support''' - ''RD responders should not draw primarily from personal experience and knowledge.'' You won't find those words in the RD guidelines, but they clearly can be inferred from those guidelines, the massive amount of discussion over the years, and common sense (i.e. personal "knowledge" is too often incorrect). This has been stated countless times, but some editors either can't grasp the concept or don't care about it for reasons I won't speculate on here. StuRat debatably has been the most "prolific" in that regard (I'm not going to debate that), and his responses here demonstrate that he <u>still</u> can't grasp the concept or doesn't care about it for reasons I won't speculate on here. I stayed out of this until I saw that. This TBAN is an important first step toward reforming the desks that the community, at ], has decided we must keep and reform. ―] ] 22:13, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*@] the guidelines may not have those exact words, but they do have "]". They also have "Our standards on verifiability, neutral point of view, or no original research should be kept in mind on the Reference Desk, as well as the rest of the project … answers should be verifiable, that is, to the extent the questioner wishes to verify that the answer is not fabricated, there should exist a reliable source (or sources) that would give the same answer". If you look back to when those guidelines were written, (see for one of many examples), so he can hardly claim he's unaware of what the guidelines say. ‑ ] 22:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Wow, you had to go back 10 years to find those. I deny your characterization of that as edit-warring. We were all modifying the guidelines at that time, as we were developing them. ] (]) 00:53, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::*StuRat demonstrates the uselessness of "Do not offer answers on topics on which you are not qualified", which presumes that one always knows whether they are "qualified" on a certain topic. "Opinions should generally be avoided" similarly presumes that one can distinguish between their opinions and fact (''in my opinion'', such a person is in the minority among the general population). But we are in agreement that the words "clearly can be inferred", and that StuRat should have long ago inferred them. ―] ] 23:02, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' topic ban preventing StuRat from participating at RefDesk. As well, the RefDesk procedures should be changed so that throwaway (non-)answers can be suppressed in some fashion, for instance by voting positively on the good answers. ] (]) 22:18, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Iridescent, TRM, Boing! etc and StuRat's very behaviour in this thread. I have no idea how many flying insects may have died as I have researched this issue but I may have been responsible for a few as I've sat here open-mouthed with amazement. - ] (]) 00:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' per Carrite and the diff provided. If you can't tell that a discussion about lighting up your own flatulence, or any other bodily excretions/accumulations, isn't the purpose of an encyclopaedia (or a refdesk), then you have absolutely no business being here (or there). It's a shame the RfC to get rid of the RefDesks isn't going to pass. <small>I am aware that not everything contributes to the construction of the encyclopaedia, ahem, we are ''here'' after all.</small> ] (]) 01:13, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Neutral''' - Since it is apparently the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community that we need Reference Desks, as the RFC to close them down is failing, removing one editor who responds too often when the whole Reference Desk concept doesn't work is an inadequate answer. ] (]) 01:47, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :*{{ping|Robert McClenon}} Of course it's inadequate; I don't think anybody has said StuRat is the only problem with RD, or even the only editor who misuses the desks in that way. Just try to imagine the "fix all RD problems" package proposal. Better yet, just try to put one together. ―] ] 02:06, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - Now perhaps some editors who strongly opposed closing the Reference Desks see why some editors favor closing them down. ] (]) 01:47, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: Baby ——— Bathwater. ] (]) 03:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Diffs are concerning to say the least. The behavior around the ref desks (pointless speculation, disparaging comments, etc.) seem rather out of place when put into the context of the rest of the wiki and the policies which apply to them. ] <small> ]/]</small> 04:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' Although I supported closing the reference desks, there is no consensus for that. It is quite clear, though, that there is widespread concern about how the reference desks have been run, and a desire for reform if they are to be kept. A key aspect of reform, in my opinion, is removing all of the highly problematic "regulars" from the reference desks. This discussion has shown a problematic and troubling pattern of behavior from StuRat going back a decade. I actually like the guy and find some of his speculations amusing and thought provoking. ''But Misplaced Pages does not need and should not allow speculation''. StuRat just doesn't get this, so I have concluded that he should be topic banned from the reference desks. ] ] 05:16, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose with reservations''' I don't want Stu to take this as thinking that I approve of his style on the refdesks in general. As others have noted, he seems to feel compelled to answer almost any question, whether he has anything worthwhile to say about it or not. This can be really pretty annoying. He actually does know quite a lot about a wide range of topics, and if he would limit himself to answering only questions where he ''does'' have special expertise, I think he would still get to contribute a fair amount, and would be a genuine asset. It's his signal/noise ratio that's way too low. But that's pretty squishy grounds for a topic ban. --] (]) 09:35, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ===Points of Order=== | |||
| # Where are the diffs? This discussion was started with links to previous discussions, but not a single diff pointing to disruptive behavior. Afterwards, we get a link to a 5+ year-old comment offering speculation about Nazi treatment of converts to Judaism which StuRat openly admits is speculation (''i.e.,'' he doesn't make a bad-faith claim as if it were fact) and a perhaps tastelessly worded but still admiring comment about a deceased editor. There's even a link giving the appearance of evidence offered if you don't follow the link to see it is to the same editor's previous comment. This is hardly conclusive evidence of disruption. | |||
| # Define "disruption". We have a score of assertions above calling StuRat disruptive. Disruption is normally taken to mean edit-warring, vandalism, changing or deleting other's comments in bad faith, deliberately posting off topic, false, or inflammatory comments. StuRat has been accused of none of this. | |||
| # RfC? This is not being conducted as a proper RfC. If this is not a kangaroo court (and plenty of people above have admitted they have their knives out) we should start over with a properly formulated RfC with notifications and so forth, not just a piling on of editors who state their agreement with the opening, not-supported-by-diff ''assertion'' that StuRat is disruptive. | |||
| ] (]) 15:27, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| ::Err. No-one says it ''is'' a RfC. Some previous RfCs have been mentioned, but this appears to be an ordinary, run-off-the mill report to AN/I in which the usual procedure is report>bollocking>sanction. Which may or may not be the outcome here I hasten to add. Afterall, since when did we prejudge AN/I reports. Hope this helps! — ]] 15:39, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * | |||
| :::If this is just a normal case, then where are the '''''recent warnings''''', and where is the '''''escalating series of blocks'''''? What we are looking at here are calls for an indefinite topic ban without any intermediate steps. Again, we need the diffs of the disruption, and to follow the forms, not a pile-on with knives drawn. ] (]) 15:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I didn't say it was a normal case, rather, a normal ''report''. I.e., not a RfC. Cheers, — ]] 16:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not aware of any policy requirements for there to be any recent warnings or escalating blocks before the community is allowed to discuss a proposal for a topic ban - but the OP did list some previous discussions of the alleged disruption. Also, there actually are some diffs offered in various places here, but the general consensus so far seems to be that so many of StuRat's ref desk responses are problematic that there's no need to list them separately. Having said that, I'll have a look through his recent ref desk posts and I'll find some for you - I'll post them below, shortly. ] (]) 16:05, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I refuse to believe that you (Medeis) are actually unaware of his issues, but for the benefit of the tape here's a bunch of diffs of him spouting shit of various kinds or talking purely to hear his own voice, taken from dip-sampling his contributions over a randomly-chosen two day period: , , , , , , , , , , , , . (All from 10–11 October; chosen to be recent enough to demonstrate that this is a current issue, but prior to the recent ANI and VPP threads in case those were either causing him to be on best behavior or to double down on his disruption in order to try to prove some kind of point.) You'll get roughly the same signal-to-noise ratio from his contributions over any random period over the past decade. This isn't a case of a single, unambiguously terrible comment that demands immediate action; this is about the cumulative impact of what's literally a decade of inappropriate comments, incorrect answers, and generally treating Misplaced Pages as his personal blog. ‑ ] 16:40, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Not only Scherbatsky12 was aware about, and even deleted the GS/AA notice , they still made several articles in its violation regardless and made GS/AA breaching additions that also include POV poorly sourced edits. ] (]) 16:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I did not in any way claim to be unaware of Stu's infuriating, juvenile, POV-laden, obsessive behavior, ]; only to be of the opinion that those raising charges have to provide the evidence. | |||
| :Even after this report, Scherbatsky12 still continues violating the extended confirmed restriction . ] (]) 22:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That being said, '''''' reverting {{ping|Legacypac}}'s archival of a ] violating thread, I am disinclined to defend Stu any further. I still oppose an outright topic ban, but some sort of '''shot across the bow''' is called for. | |||
| ::Given them a on the matter. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::@] thank you, but aren't we over a warning here? I've already left a notice on their talk back in October and explained what it meant. They still violated the restriction numerous times and even violated again just hours ago after this report. The WP:AA3 topic area has stricter rules enforcement than most other topics, and the behavior of Scherbatsky12 isn't encouraging. ] (]) 00:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Caribbean Hindustani == | |||
| :::::::Yet the underlying problem remains the inaction by admins and the failure to delete and salt this trolling by IP and newbie SPI's. ] (]) 20:31, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *{{articlelinks|Caribbean Hindustani}} | |||
| This is probably not the appropriate page, but I couldn't find a better one. If an admin may have a look at the version history of the ] article - there's two quite new editors battling out a dispute since December. Maybe some administrative guidance would help them. Thanks and kind regards, ] 18:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You can't just provide diffs, you need to explain exactly what Misplaced Pages policy each of those violates. Some were jokes, do you oppose all humor on Misplaced Pages talk pages, or just all humor on the Ref Desk ? Is there a Misplaced Pages policy which supports this ? (I believe we did decide to wait for serious answers first, before adding jokes.) Most were serious answers. For example, one person wanted to update Misplaced Pages to add the term "nose blindness" to it, since they saw that term used in TV ads. I explained why we can't allow TV advertisers to define the names of Misplaced Pages articles, with examples. What policy does this violate ? I could go on to defend the rest of those diffs, if I knew what you were actually complaining about in each case. ] (]) 17:16, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Per the notice at the top of this page, you were supposed to alert both editors of this thread. I've done so for you. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::And that answer illustrates your lack of self-awareness better than any diff ever could. ] (]) 17:41, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :This: , may or may not be helpful. I'd also add that I can't force someone to discuss something on the talkpage: ] (]) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::That would make sense if you'd tried discussing on the talk page, but you didn't head there until Tarbly asked you to. You can't force someone to discuss something but you can try discussing which you haven't done until now. Expecting the other party to start a discussion is rarely good editor behaviour especially when you are edit warring. Instead it's like a lame kids 'they started it' defence. The only way you can prove an editor refuses to discuss on the talk page is by trying otherwise you can both be counted as refusing to discuss. To be clear except the first sentence, this applies to both of you. ] (]) 00:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I have added several sources and journel and official government and NGO sites that work on it to prove what I am writing. But that user dont have source to prove it and its just his opinion which he had written. | |||
| :He also wrote his opinion on Hindustani page which got removed by the admin as it was false information but the same thing when I added on caribbean Hindustani page, he reverted my changes. If writing opinion as a fact and that too without any source and also the source provided dont match with the information. | |||
| :I had talk with the user and explained several times in the edit and on talk page as well. I have explained everything which I added with source unlike him. ] (]) 04:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Potential block evasion by IP 211.184.93.253 (old IP 58.235.154.8) == | |||
| :: This isn't an RFC, it is an AN/I complaint. A righteous one. ] (]) 16:35, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{atop|1=Blocks guaranteed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| The IP ] was banned on December 29, 2024 (6 month block duration) for disruptive editing. To be specific, they would write in a delay of a Starship launch by exactly one month, without any citations. | |||
| They had been banned before (two month ban) for the same behaviour. | |||
| :::An attempt to ] has been . The wording is non-neutral. That could be changed of course. ]|] 17:29, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I have changed it so. ] (]) 17:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thank you {{u|Boing! said Zebedee}}. ]|] 18:52, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::It wasn't an attempt at canvassing, I didn't say "please !vote for me". It was a notification, and I welcomed them to !vote either way. And why exactly didn't you people think the Ref Desk should be notified, anyway ? ] (]) 00:33, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::If after 12 years you still cannot see why that message was inappropriate, the likelihood is that you should not be editing anywhere on WP, not merely facing a topic ban. - ] (]) | |||
| :: Diffs? try this thread: ] ] (]) 11:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| A few examples that I sourced in my : | |||
| ===Some examples and diffs=== | |||
| As some people have asked for specific diffs, I've been through some of StuRat's very recent contributions to the ref desks and here are a few, with my opinion on what's wrong with them. I'm offering actual threads in addition to specific diffs - as StuRat himself rightly said, context is important: | |||
| # we have a that is not remotely close to an answer to the question asked, and then which simply offers his own personal speculation. | |||
| # the question is "''Is there any research on the cognitive abilities of seagulls?''", and we get which answers a completely different question, and then after further non-answer general discussion it ends up with stuff like . | |||
| # someone asked a very specific question, and we get about his own PC followed by off-topic discussion that does not address the OP's question. | |||
| # we have someone asking of numbers of flying insects are declining, and StuRat pops in to tell us "''I've personally killed some 500 box elder bugs in my house this fall''". Who cares? | |||
| #, yet we get personal rambling that in no way helps to answer the question, followed by when someone else suggests that his personal speculation is not useful - ironically saying "''Meanwhile, we are drifting farther from the OP with such discussions''" while excluding his own off-topic chat from the hat and so showing little sign of self-awareness. | |||
| # I don't have the faintest idea what the question means, but ] seems to think StuRat's answer is a bad one, and then StuRat while hatting the objection, again hiding criticism of one of his answers. And ironically again, only seeing any off-topic nature in other people's contributions but never his own. | |||
| # is more indicative of the problems generally with the ref desks, in that it would have been easy to use weight/calorie calculators to estimate the likely stable weight of someone consuming 3,800 kcals per say at the usual specified levels of activity. Sadly nobody did this, but we also have the unsourced (and highly contentious) claim by StuRat that "all calories aren't the same" - and the "Your best approach might..." does not even attempt to answer the question. | |||
| I could go on, but I've no doubt I'd just find more and more of the same stuff. Now, none of the above is, in itself, anything especially egregious - and I'm happy to say that StuRat has provided some good answers too. But the problem is that StuRat's contributions, whether he knows the answer or not, are unrelenting. His approach reminds me of the 'know-it-all' that everyone tries to avoid at the pub (or bar) who cannot resist interjecting themself with unjustified authority into every conversation. Even that wouldn't be too bad if StuRat could listen to others and accept constructive criticism, but he can't - criticism of his answers is "off-topic" and quickly hatted, while he can't see the off-topic nature of many of his own contributions. ] (]) 17:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *I'm just going to add , uncovered by ] above, which reverts the removal of blatant trolling and shows arrogant ownership of the ref desks = from en editor who regularly hides criticism of his own edits. ] (]) 18:24, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *I'm also copying to here the selection of diffs found by ], which cover the single 2-day period of October 10/11 - , , , , , , , , , , , , .<p>Please, don't anyone complain that you have not been given enough diffs now. ] (]) 18:29, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| IP ] is now repeating this pattern, in what appears to be block-evasion. | |||
| :*As I mentioned there (and you failed to copy here), diffs with no explanation as to what Misplaced Pages policy has been violated are meaningless. As for reverting deletions, everyone is allowed to do that, it doesn't imply ownership. | |||
| :*Now for those listed above: | |||
| :*1) The OP contained a suspect assumption, that all servicemen and women attempt to pronounce foreign names correctly. I showed that this is not always the case. | |||
| :*2) The ] is one way to gauge animal intelligence. Once they had that term, they can use it in their searches to see if it has been applied by researchers to seagulls. The funny aside at the end is in small text, showing it's not meant to be an answer to the Q. I added this after serious answers, including mine, had been supplied, in accordance with Ref Desk policy. | |||
| :*3) This was a serious response about how using a PC to time events on that PC may not be as reliable as using an external timer. | |||
| :*4) This is an example of how human population growth can affect flying insect numbers. Multiply the effect each person has on flying insect numbers by world population, and the effect may become significant. | |||
| :*5) The OP may have started with the assumption that all, or most, Muslims speak Arabic. I corrected that assumption. My point 2, specifically, was repeated by Jayron later in the thread, because it had been hatted by then. I hatted only the part of the discussion that seemed to be leading off into unrelated territory, namely Bible translations. | |||
| :*6) You really shouldn't produce a diff as evidence of something when you admit you have no idea what it means. The issue was whether to provide only an analytic answer to a math problem, or also propose the numeric methods solution. While the OP did request the analytic solution, that doesn't mean they wanted to exclude the numeric solution. I asked him after, on his talk page, and he said they had no objection to my answer. As for hatting, this type of attacking other editors doesn't belong on the Ref Desk at all, but I left it there, hatted, precisely so I wouldn't "delete criticism" of myself. | |||
| :*7) The crux of my argument was that trying to determine what people's weight should be, based on calorie count alone, is a faulty method. I listed several reason for this, as did others. So, this Q can not be answered. Here's a source from Harvard saying that not all calories are equal: . I'm going to add it the that Ref Desk Q now, too. (Too late, it's already been archived, so I put it on the talk page of the person who requested the source, instead.) BTW, you seem to suffer from the same error as the OP, in assuming that a given caloric intake will inevitable produce a given, stable weight. There's simply no evidence to support this. Weight is based on many factors, and calorie intake is just one among them. To come up with such an answer would require faulty assumptions. See ]. Now some might argue, that if it's unanswerable, it should just be deleted. I disagree. We should explain precisely why it is unanswerable, instead, so the OP learns something. ] (]) 18:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{Hat|1=Rather a specific- not to say massy- discussion. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 09:39, 30 October 2017 (UTC)</small>}} | |||
| :::The stable weight of a person's body is based solely on mass/energy in and mass/energy out, regardless of any fad bullshit unless you know how to break the laws of physics (and you have completely misunderstood the science behind that article). And it would have been very easy to provide average expectations of stable weight based on a given daily calorific input and various general levels of output. ] (]) 19:42, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Out of the five edits made by this IP: | |||
| ::::That's just the type of answer we don't want to give, and if I gave such an answer, people would use it here as a prime example of why I should be blocked. (MASS IN) MINUS (MASS OUT) isn't quite a correct way to calculate current mass, since the initial mass would also need to be considered. But, the Q was about a constant amount of calories in, not mass, so that's all quite irrelevant. Next, if everyone had very similar levels of calorie expenditure each year, then it might be reasonable to assume some average figure. But the calories burned by each person vary dramatically, and even vary with weight (it takes more calories to do many things when obese), so such as assumption is in the spherical cow range of unreliability, and any answer we came up with would be in the wild-assed guess (WAG) range. ] (]) 22:14, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Oh, come on Stu, you are completely misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I said. I did not say "(MASS IN) MINUS (MASS OUT)". I used "mass/energy", and a steady rate of "mass/energy" in and "mass/energy" out will result in a steady body weight. If in is greater than out, weight will increase until basal metabolic rate increases sufficiently to utilize all of the ingested kcals. Similarly, if out is greater than in then weight will fall until a new equilibrium is reached. And in both cases, we come to reasonably accurate generalizations that form the basis of those weight/kcal calculators. You suggest you are sensitive to the possibility that "''if I gave such an answer, people would use it here as a prime example of why I should be blocked''" - can you really not deduce from that that when you have no idea what you're talking about you should possibly just shut up? ] (]) 22:35, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You're still using "mass/energy", as if we somehow need to consider the conversion of mass to energy and vice-versa here. There are no nuclear reactions in the human body having a significant effect on weight, and your use of that term makes it look like you really don't know what you're talking about and should take your own advice. ] (]) 22:41, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::No, I'm not talking of nuclear reactions at all, I'm simply including all of the mass and the calorific value of food. Food goes in (it has mass and calorific value), and mass (poo, CO2, liquid waste) comes out and energy is burned. The net result is what changes body weight. As for not knowing what I'm talking about, what is your expertise in the subject? This is not an 'argument from authority' thing, but I do have a BSc in Biochemistry. ] (]) 22:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::But, again, this Q has absolutely nothing to do with how much mass is consumed, and you don't seem to understand this simple fact. You could drink a huge mass of water and not gain weight. This is why the OP didn't ask anything about mass consumed. I am rather suspect that you have such a degree, or you should know this. And you stating that your info is more reliable because you have a degree in the field is precisely an ]. ] (]) 22:58, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Yes, obviously, because you would pee that water out again and the net in/out balance would be zero - duh! But over any studied period, *all* inputs and *all* outputs need to be considered to assess net effect on weight. Please stop embarrassing yourself by exhibiting your ignorance, because it's getting painful to watch - and having said that, I'm going to stop watching and go to bed, good night. ] (]) 23:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::One possible way to calculate current mass would be to look at masses in and out, but, again, THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS Q. This Q is about calories in, not mass in or out. ] (]) 23:14, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Sigh, yes, but the point that you are still failing/refusing to understand is that once a mass in/out equilibrium is established (ie when ] matches ]), a weight equilibrium will also be established, and it will be reasonably close to what the standard kcal/body weight calculators say - and an answer along those lines would be a reasonably factual answer to give. As an aside, have you looked to see how your performance here is affecting the !voting? You should. And that really is goodnight. ] (]) 23:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::But, yet again, this all depends on calories burnt, and the OP provided no way to even estimate this. Thus you are left with a WAG. ] (]) 00:35, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Made before 58.235.154.8 ban, changed Flight 8 launch date from Early 2025 to February 2025. Doesn't add a source. | |||
| :::An actual and correct answer would be:<br>E.g. a 25 year old male of 5'10" with a 3800 Calories/day intake taking only the BMR (basal metabolic rate) into account.] (]) 21:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Delays ] on ] from February 2025 to March 2025. No source added. | |||
| ::::Exactly, and other variations could have been offered for folks of different dimensions, ages and activity levels. ] (]) 22:16, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added. | |||
| ::::And how would you justify ignoring all other metabolic processes ? ] (]) 22:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches, again from February to March. No source added. | |||
| :::::FGS! Click on the fucking link and calculate it by yourself.] (]) 22:32, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added. | |||
| ::::::Then I'd need to make the same highly suspect assumptions you made, or different highly suspect assumptions. Garbage in, garbage out. Just having a button to run a calculation doesn't make the underlying assumptions any more reliable. ] (]) 22:45, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| This is either a similarly disruptive editor, or more likely, a ban evader continuing their vandalism. Either way, they are ]. ] (]) 19:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::One thousand and one face palms.] (]) 23:16, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Additionally, geolocate places both IP addresses in the same region, which makes it quite likely that they are evading a ban. | |||
| :::::Depending on what assumptions were used, you would get wildly different answers, and none of them would be of any use to anyone. This is why neither I, nor the others who responded, attempted such a thing. We understand the futility of trying to provide a numeric answer to such an open-ended Q. ] (]) 22:20, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| ::::::<s>Can I ask you what is the basis for your understanding of "metabolic processes"? Do you have any educational qualifications in biochemistry? Any professional experience in such a field? ] (]) 22:39, 29 October 2017 (UTC)<s> Actually, no, never mind. All of your answers are unequivocally demonstrating the problems that others are seeing in your misplaced sense of infallibility and your inability or unwillingness to listen - I could not possibly support my case for a topic ban better than you are doing for me. ] (]) 22:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : ] (]) 19:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::(I already wrote my reply before you struck it out.) What about your qualifications ? You are making all sorts of arguments on how that Q can be answered, but do you have any qualifications to do so ? From the quality of your answers, I'd wager the answer is no. But, Misplaced Pages doesn't actually require any given degrees to contribute to articles, since when they tried such an approach, it failed miserable. I believe the same policy applies at the Ref Desk. ] (]) 22:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::BSc Biochemistry, MA Philosophy. Yours? ] (]) 22:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::: |
:::I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. ] (]) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| ::::] ] (]) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Ouch, StuRat, that's a boomerang moment. Many of us are qualified beyond standard university degrees, we don't need to prove it to you, because we use articles and links to substantiate our responses. You don't. Your OR is actually what we should be avoiding at the ref desk. Once again I support this motion, and I also support the idea that a few other OR-respondents at the ref desks should be subject to the same sanctions. ] (]) 22:55, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thanks! ] (]) 23:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) (added after discussion close) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Danny5784 == | |||
| ::Re: (4). Are the Ref Desks somehow exempt from ]? They shouldn't be. - ] (]) 19:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{userlinks|Danny5784}} does not seem to have the maturity and judgement to be a productive editor. Despite ] and efforts by multiple editors to explain things to them, they are continuing to create unneeded pages. Of the 18 articles they've created, 9 have been redirected (mostly at AfD), 2 deleted, and 4 currently have unanimous delete/redirect consensus at AfD. Three of their most recent creations are particularly noteworthy: | |||
| :::Certainly not in asides, like that was. You need to be able to distinguish between the main answers and when people just add something amusing at the end. Do none of you ever say anything funny, as an aside, ever ? Typically we use small text to show that this isn't the main answer. ] (]) 22:25, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * After ] was declined by {{u|Stuartyeates}}, and I ] that such pages are not notable, Danny5784 ]. | |||
| * Danny5784 created ] with poor sourcing, much of it from a user-generated wiki. After {{u|Djflem}} wrangled it into a useful list, Danny5784 created both ] and ] apparently as ]. | |||
| Danny5784 also has issues with copyright: they uploaded a large number of now-deleted files on Commons and ], then did ] here, plus using blatantly false non-free content criteria. | |||
| With 460 edits over 15 months, Danny5784 is past the point where these can just be dismissed as newbie mistakes. They are a ] editor who is unwilling or unable to follow basic norms such as notability, reliable sourcing, and copyright. Until they demonstrate more maturity, I believe a prohibition from page creation (article, template, and file upload) is needed. ] (]) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I could speculate that the more people there are, the more shit we produce, and therefore the more flies there are - but I'm not going to try to answer a factual question by extrapolating from the weight of my own shit and counting how many flies I kill. ] (]) 19:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| <!--{{hat|1=A wild ] appears. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}}--> | |||
| ::::If you had measured an actual increase in their numbers as a result of, say, using an open sewage ditch, and had a number to report, then you something useful to contribute. Of course, in that case they may have just been drawn from other areas, too, so that doesn't automatically mean their numbers increase, while the flying insects I killed aren't going anywhere, so their numbers definitely went down. ] (]) 22:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Incorrect and no. No prohibition is necessary. You would need to teach and show him how it is done. | |||
| :::::So you killed 500 bugs, and you think that is in any way statistically significant when according to some there are an estimated 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 insects on the planet? That the biomass of ants alone exceeds that of all the humans that have ever lived? That there are more insects in one square mile of empty field than there are people in the world? (source = quick Google search). Get a grip. ] (]) 23:29, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Don't even try to prohibit him. Over 15 months of editing, you still don't even accept it?! What is wrong with you? Your more stricter than ] so, knock it off and NO PROBITION! And also, he's trying his best to do it right. ] (]) 23:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::First, we aren't concerned with all insects, only the flying kinds. Next, people are very unevenly distributed on the planet, as are insects. So, human populations likely have very little effect on insects populations in unpopulated regions of the Amazon, but major impacts in cites. Since this Q was about people noticing a lack of flying insects, and most people live in cities, that's the most relevant place to look at effects of human activity on flying insect populations. Bees, in particular, seem to be having problems, and not just near cities. See ]. ] (]) 00:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: |
::It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. ] (]) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | ||
| :::I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. ] (]/]) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::. (And that's 3 years old, and the world is steadily becoming more urbanized.) ] (]) 02:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear {{confirmed}} result.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{hab}} | |||
| :::::I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. ] (]) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::: With respect to point (6), the issue with StuRat's answer is that it is not in any sense an answer to the question asked, something he appears not to understand even at this late date. For the non-mathematical, one way to see this is to note the words "implicit curve" and "partial derivative" appear in the question but not in the pseudo-answer. (Separately, I have changed the reference above to point to my actual username (which is different from my sig, sorry of the confusion).) --] (]) 21:39, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{ping|Liz}} I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As you suggested, I asked him if he was dissappointed or angry at my answer. He said he was not, and welcomes all attempts at answers. It's not for you to now go and try to override his response because you didn't like it. I did as you suggest, now accept what he said. (I haven't linked to his response because he really doesn't want to get dragged into all this unpleasantness, but you've already seen it and responded to it.) ] (]) 22:31, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| <!--{{hab}}--> | |||
| :::::::No problem, ever, with unarchiving, ]. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I just try to help run a clean ship. And no worries! As far as I can tell the template's working, but will leave this unhatted given that. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:26, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::As the editor who declined the article above at AfC, I'd encourage admins to shepherd young newbies towards AfC and similar venues. It's what we're hear for (if anything I should have given better comments in my decline). ] (]) 08:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| So, in the last diff everyone acted like StuRat but... "but we also have the unsourced (and highly contentious) claim by StuRat that "all calories aren't the same"". But that's a correct statement that can be easily cited from the literature. The attitude taken by other posters when they see an unsourced statement is see if they can cite it themselves for the sake of providing refs, even if they happen to have a different view about the subject, and if they really care about sources, instead of wanting to use lack of sources as a stick to fight out disputes. ] (]) 23:31, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Clerical note that this user is not the ] DannyS712. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == User LivinAWestLife vandalizing Republican Party article == | |||
| :. ] (]) 00:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{u|LivinAWestLife}} made a large change to the Republican Party article which changed the ideology of the party from the consensus Center-right to fascist. They quickly then changed the text to "far-right" . Any seasoned editor should know such behavior is beyond reckless and clearly disruptive. ] (]) 00:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * On the basis of this last section, TBAN. This was a chance for StuRat to recognise that there was a problem here and to offer some insight into it, with maybe an agreement to observe the stated constraints of the RefDesks in the future. Instead we get a displacement into arguing over calories and a further attempt to demonstrate that his approach of finger-in-the-air WP:OR is right after all. | |||
| : StuRat, you are ''not'' right here. Your approach is ''not'' welcome here and will no longer be tolerated. Either it goes, or you do, and from this thread it doesn't seem that you're able to drop the vague unsupportable handwaves. ] (]) 00:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :: But his approach did yield the most accurate answer, i.e. all calories are indeed not the same, that's actually highly relevant to the question asked and it can be sourced from a large number of sources. If you get most of your calories from fat then you're going to struggle to maintain your weight if you eat a lot. If you get most of your calories from whole grains, you can eat your stomach full every day and you'll not get overweight. The reason is that a high carb low fat diet will contain much more nutrients that your body needs for metabolism, you'll find it a lot easier to exercise thereby burning a lot more energy. Fat is more difficult to burn for the body, it can get into muscle cells and there it will cause the mitochondria to become less active and you'll also lose some of them. So, your metabolism will actually slow down if you increase the fat content of your diet. This is all well known stuff that doesn't need to be cited, and certainly not overruled based on the simplistic "calories in - calories out = weight gain" idea that is not even wrong, and arguably is the cause of the obesity epidemic where you have all these fat Americans who get ever fatter as a result of calorie counting and eliminating carbs from their diets. ] (]) 01:08, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::. ] (]) 01:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sure, and if a high fat diet lowers your metabolism, that means it reduces the calories burned over any comparable period. It lowers the "calories out" part of the equation and "calories in minus calories out" still holds. Similarly, if someone is getting most of their calories from whole grains, and they eat their stomach full every day and don't get overweight, that's because they're reducing the calories in, and again "calories in minus calories out" still holds. It can't work any other way, because energy can not be created or destroyed - if it goes in the body and does not come out, what happens to it? Yes, different diets are better for losing weight than others, but that wasn't the question. The question asked what weight people would be if their daily kcal intake was 3,800, and for a person who is at a stable weight at that calorific intake it is possible to work out an approximate estimate of that weight - which is what those calculators can do. And what specific foods they are eating does not make a lot of difference - for a person of stable weight, they are burning all 3,800 kcals regardless of the source. Of course, if the person is in a weight-gain or weight-loss phase, all bets are off, but at least the "stable weight" example would have been a helpful answer - and is probably what the OP wanted anyway. ] (]) 11:07, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back. ] (]) 00:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :A double wammy of inaccuracy by StuRat . Problem #1 Asserting commissioned salespeople are not reliable sources of information is dead wrong. While StuRat appears to think he is an expert on every topic with no evident advanced expertise in most topics, I have extensive experience in several areas. I was a realtor working on commission and I always provided the very best info I could dig up. As a developer I bought hundreds of millions of dollars of real estate, goods and services. Nearly every commissioned salesperson I’ve dealt with provided the best advice and info they could, and the better job they did the more likely I was to order. Problem #2 a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of Misplaced Pages project pages including the RefDesk. This is typical of his inappropriate posts at RefDesk, and instead of falling into policy he doubles down. ] (]) 02:43, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Vandalism is vandalism and is ''not'' funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a ''very'' low tolerance for trolls, ''especially'' in contentious topics. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also worth noting that ]. Regards, ]. (] | ]). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There are several people who feel the current discussion of political ideology of the Republican party is non-neutral. Disruptive drive-by edits actually make correcting such problems harder rather than easier. So please stop. ] (]) 12:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::There was over half an hour in which the edits in question were live before they were reverted by a third party so "minutes at most" doesn't seem very applicable. If you ''really'' have a primal urge to vandalize an article, there is a correct way to do so without disrupting the wiki - see ]. ] (]) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Extremely unbecoming to do something like this during a major political transition. This causes thousands of people to further distrust Misplaced Pages. It could even be outright dangerous. Even more ridiculous to hide behind humor. I'm not anyone important but I want to convey to you directly how outrageous I find this to be. ] (]) 02:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Couldn't you have just used inspect element? ] (]) 02:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::You're taking a ''very'' long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. ] (]) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «''Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back''» and there are no consequences? ] (]) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If there's no further disruption and they've recognized what they did was wrong and committed to not do it again then a trout is likely sufficient. Of course if there's further disruption that would be a different matter entirely. ] (]) 16:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::They've gotten a level four vandalism warning and are now put at the end of their ]. In my opinion, everything is in order here. Per above, disruption either won't continue, and if it does, further sanctions will follow. ] (]) 16:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Per the idea that blocks etc should be preventative not punitive, I agree that no further action seems like the correct option. Certainly LivinAWestLife is/should be clearly aware that their actions were not acceptable and I agree that they slid to the end of the rope. However, absent additional actions like this we are probably done. ] (]) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Editor repeatedly reverting edits == | |||
| ::So you use OR instead of refs to refute my claim, which referenced our ] article ? Why am I not surprised. And, just to clarify, just because a conflict of interest exists in that they make more money if they sell you additional stuff you don't need, that doesn't always mean they will act on that conflict of interest. But it does mean you should treat their advice more suspiciously than those who won't make a profit from giving you bad advice. ] (]) 02:58, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Cambial_Yellowing}} | |||
| This editor is starting ] again, just reverted , and has done this before with these edits and , repeatedly.! | |||
| ===Stay on topic=== | |||
| I tried to communicate on ] but editor just went away! | |||
| It's important that this discussion remains focused, StuRat has made thousands of edits to the ref desks, and it's fair to say that most of them are without encyclopedic foundation or verifiable reference. The Ref Desks need a serious shakedown, it's been true for years now, and it has to start with those who use them as social media, or personal opinion galleries. Misplaced Pages should strive to provide answers to real questions at the ref desks with links to Misplaced Pages articles or, worst case, external links. We should avoid personal opinions, that's not what encyclopedias are about. ] (]) 22:51, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| For such behavior the editor has been | |||
| :Ideally, every response should have a reference. But what does one do with questions that are either too vague or are unable to be referenced? Delete them? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:58, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Again, stay on topic. That's not pertinent to this current issue. ] (]) 23:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::You brought it up: "Misplaced Pages should strive to provide answers to real questions at the ref desks with links to Misplaced Pages articles or, worst case, external links." ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:24, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| This editor last time also pushed me to violate ] , | |||
| :Re: "it's fair to say that most of them are without encyclopedic foundation or verifiable reference." No, it's not. Prove it, or don't make such a claim. ] (]) 23:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| While i was trying to improve the ] article by moving criticism out of the theology section to separate criticism section, as per | |||
| ::You summarily fail to provide either links to Misplaced Pages articles or links to reliable sources. That's precisely the problem. If you did, this ANI thread wouldn't exist. Simple as that. ] (]) 23:03, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] where it is clearly mentioned | |||
| "''In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title, for example, if there is a large body of critical material, and if independent secondary sources comment, analyze or discuss the critical material.''" | |||
| :::No, I regularly provide those, you just conveniently cherry-pick those cases where I didn't. You claimed that MOST of the time I don't, so either prove it or retract the statement. ] (]) 23:11, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::* So, show some counter-examples. | |||
| Because, before this, i was reading similar article, ] and the criticism section make it easy to understand. | |||
| ::::*I already did, in my response section. Those good answers don't necessarily all reference Misplaced Pages articles, as some Q's, like finding a math error, don't require refs. But many of them do have good refs. If you want something more recent, we have this: . ] (]) 02:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I don't know why the editor doesn't understand ] and ] are not the same thing, which is common sense, but I was punished for using my common sense before, and now this again! ] (]) 02:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Or not answer at all. But just like in real life, if someone asks you a question, you have an innate desire to ''try to'' answer it. Maybe StuRat more than some others. From time to time, we see arguments that only answers with citations should be given. But that is insufficient. For example, on the entertainment desk just today, someone asked about umpires overturning reviewed calls. One editor gave a referenced answer, but it was only partial information. I posted the arithmetic which led to the OP thanking the both of us. However, the OP is a ref desk regular, so it's not surprising he gave feedback. If a question is vague, it should be hatted. And then the hatter will get yelled it. It's an endless cycle. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:12, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::And it won't likely be the OP doing the yelling, since he couldn't care less. It will be those who fancy themselves the ref desk owners - the clique. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:16, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::If vague we can ask the OP to clarify, then hat if they don't respond. ] (]) 02:23, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::A good idea, and probably something the clique wouldn't stand for. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 16:12, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Hello, ], | |||
| :The question is how bad that really is in the larger scheme of things. The complaints about not sticking to the fine print of Wiki-rules are coming from mostly outsiders and some Ref Desk contributors who are known to be very strict with the rules and for calling out others when their very strict red lines are infinitesimally breached. I've experienced how forums like e.g. Physicsforums went down the drain precisely because the mods and contributors started to fight each other about such issues when there was no real issue w.r.t. the answers to questions given, other than "the rules". Other websites where they take more relaxed attitude w.r.t. to "the rules" became the prominent websites of today, e.g. StackExchange, Quora, Yahoo Answers etc.. Now, we can say that we're not StackExchange, we're not Quora, we're going to stick to our holy rules. But given that the OPs who ask questions at the Ref Deak can just as well go to the other websites, that's a bit like the East German politburo worrying about people not sticking to communist doctrine when the wall has been breached. They took the decision to disband their State, so I think we should just go about the business of answering questions in a more relaxed way as they do everywhere else. | |||
| :First ] is the noticeboard to report edit-warring, secondly, you haven't provided any diffs of edit warring and, first and foremost, no one can "push" you to violate our guidelines on edit-warring, take responsibility for your own mistakes. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Also, ANI should be where you come when other methods of communication have failed. Have you started a discussion on the article talk page or posted to their user talk page about your differences? Give it a shot before coming to ANI. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Sorry@] actually before this, i went on your to discuss and waited for days, and about previous revertes i have provided . ] (]) 02:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's '''your''' action, not theirs. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::They are the one who started removing/reverting repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are . Plese see ] edit history. ] (]) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::It's good you have accepted that mistake, but you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen again, no matter what another editor "starts". ] is a bright line. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, Sokoreq, that was my fault, I'm behind responding to talk page messages, I apologize for that. But I didn't mean that you should post a template on Cambial Yellowing's user talk page that was more suitable for a new editor (and they have been editing for over 5 years), I meant actually talking through a discussion. I can see that another editor already posted on their User talk page about the article talk page, you could have joined that discussion or posted on the article talk page. Again, my apologies about my lack of responsiveness. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::They edit in group, while i started a discussion but then first editor didn't explanation much and went for a week, again today I tried on ] but didn't receive any reply, I apologize for any inconvenience but this is very new for me. ] (]) 02:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I respect they are senior editors, but I don't understand what they are upto and there is some discussion on the ] for months is hard to understand. The talk page is messy; it's difficult to understand who is who and what is what? ] (]) 02:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :] is related to this. Sokoreq's response to being reverted was to baselessly accuse an editor of COI and harassment . When someone else reverted them they too were accused of harassment . After the COIN discussion didn't go their way, they continued to double down on COI accusations: . This latest report is more of the same. Despite being directed there numerous times by several editors, they still have not posted on the article's associated talk page - ever. I suggest that a ] sanction is appropriate here. - ] (]) 03:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :If StuRat behaves in a disruptive way as judged from the perspective of OPs who don't care about the small details pf the rules we have, then that's a problem we do need to deal with. But otherwise, we should calm down and focus on giving good answers. We should not sit in judgment ourselves of what is a good or bad answer, let the OPs decide and listen to their feedback. ] (]) 23:16, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::? <span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:-15deg;color:darkblue">''']'''</span><span style="display:inline-flex;rotate:15deg;color:darkblue">]</span> 03:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::If any. Too often, the OP's provide no feedback at all, leaving it to responders to try to figure out what the OP is asking for. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:34, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::@] Yeh, I went to the ] noticeboard a week ago. It's closed now, because I didn't have evidence to prove. and the editor was also repeatedly reverting without explanation and suddenly went for a week. I have discussed the matter with that editor on my . What do you want to prove through this? ] (]) 03:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thats true. Perhaps if the "Thanks" button was part of each signature instead of having to go to the edit history to find it, we might get more feedback that way. ] (]) 02:20, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *Sokoreq, that article talk page is quite an immense discussion on one specific aspect of the article that has nothing to do with your interests so I'd just start a new discussion there. I also see that you just removed a discussion on your user talk page with ] from your own talk page and asked them not to post on it any longer. You will not get very far on a collaborative editing project if you refust to actually communicate with editors you have disagreements with. Actual discussion, with opinions, arguments, diffs and sources with other editors is how consensus is formed on this project. But you can't seek to eliminate every editor you disagree with or you will not be editing here for a long time. It can be challenging but every editor on this project has to find a way to work with editors who have differences with and that is usually accomplished, not through coming to a noticeboard but by presenting a solid argument on an article talk page and convincing other editors that your position is stronger. But ANI doesn't exist to get rid of other editors who revert you. If edit-warring is an actual problem, which doesn't seem to be the case here, then post a formal case at ]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I read over ] discussion and I haven't said anything to you that you weren't already told at COIN. What is your resistance to having a discussion on the article talk page? That should be your first destination when you have a disagreement, not ANI. Now, I'm going to stop because I'm just repeating advice that you've already been given. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::Liz, this is really helpful. I hope they will communicate.! Thank you for creating space on the discussion page. I will keep this in mind for next time. And for formal cases, I will post on ]. Thanks again ] (]) 04:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Usually, when an editor returns to their edit war after being blocked, without once contributing to the article talk page discussions, they are blocked. | |||
| == Possible copyright violating links issue == | |||
| I think a good case can be made for Sokoreq is ] , those diffs () show an inability to work with others and take accountability for their own actions. The subsequent ], ] and and the behavior that led to this discussion show that it's unlikely to end without further intervention. --] (]) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| I noticed {{u|Nemo bis}} has been inserting many links to zenodo.org e.g. which appears to host user-uploaded copies of journal articles which may be violating publishers' copyright, as it appears to in the link I noticed. In exchanges on their talk page, {{u|Nemo bis}} seems to think there is no problem. Would be grateful if an IPR-savvy colleague could take a look. ] (]) 20:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :See below for more context, but Zenodo.org is a legitimate cross-institutional repository for legally depositing papers. Zenodo is not inherently legal for all papers or version of a paper; that determination varies on a paper-by-paper basis depending on the contract, author, institution, journal, date of publication, and version of paper. These rights are nuanced, but generally captured well at , which indexes precisely this information. Cheers, ] (]) 23:25, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::This thread is about the approach being taken by {{u|Nemo bis}} which has not been appropriate - I share Alexbrn's concern. ] (]) 23:52, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{replyto|Ocaasi (WMF)}} The question is not whether zenodo.org is legitimate, but hinges on the fact that it (no doubt unwittingly) seems to host a lot of illicit copyrighted content alongside properly permitted content. If Misplaced Pages links to copyrighted content it gets into the area of risking contributory infringement, which is why policy prohibits it. Is this not an issue? ] (]) 05:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::: If the site is primarily a repository for legally-uploaded material, as Jake indicates it is above, then we should assume that links are OK unless links to apparently illicit uploads are discovered, in which case they should be removed on a case-by-case basis. ] (]) 20:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::No, people need to use the tool responsibly all that OABOT does is suggest links and it is up to the user to confirm that the suggested link is OK. Zenodo takes no responsibility either. Nobody should assume anything. ] (]) 22:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I don't know what you're up to, but , I was just trying to understand your disagreements. But, you went away for days. I don’t have anything personal against you now, and I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above. I will discuss any future disagreements on the article's talk page. Thanks ] (]) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{tq| I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above}} That's not what you did, and that's disruptive. --] (]) 00:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::], can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::There doesn't appear to be any olive branch being offered. The comments from Sokoreq, here and elsewhere, have me wondering if {{they are|Sokoreq}} using an AI or auto-translator to communicate with us. I see very little understand of what's being written, less still of actual policy, all while downplaying or ignoring, often misrepresenting, {{their|Sokoreq}} own behavior. --] (]) 02:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Trolling at ] == | |||
| This led me to go through all their edits adding putatively OA links today | |||
| {{atop|1=Done (for now). - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| ;not OK - ] violations: | |||
| *{{IPvandal|2600:1700:9366:e040:506c:d71c:7e0b:3528}} | |||
| *, added link to final published version of article hosted at Zenodo, not Ok per | |||
| ] please. ] ] 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *, added link to final published version of article hosted at Zenodo, not Ok per | |||
| :]? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 17:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * , added link to final published version of article hosted at university website, not OK per | |||
| ::No response there; strictly speaking it might not be the most obvious vandalism in any case.--] ] 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * , added link to final published version of article hosted at PACEA (scientific org), not OK per | |||
| :I have requested protection for the talk page. I'll see how it goes. I have suspicion of meatpuppetry/canvassing from 4chan. ] (]) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * , added link to final published version of article hosted at Zenodo, not OK per | |||
| ::Semi-protected now, thanks ] ] (]) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * , added link to final published version of article hosted at Zenodo, not OK per | |||
| * IP blocked and page protected for a short period. I'm guessing this first month we will see a lot of these types of editors. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * , added link to final published version of article hosted at Zenodo, not OK per | |||
| **{{ping|Isabelle Belato|Acroterion}} Needs talk page access yanked too.--] ] 18:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * , added link to final published version of article hosted at Zenodo, not OK per and | |||
| **:Done. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 18:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * , added link to final published version of article hosted at Zenodo, not OK per and | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| * and added link to final published version of article hosted at Zenodo, not OK per and | |||
| == Meatpuppetry/tag teaming at Conor Benn == | |||
| ;ok | |||
| {{atop|1=Resolved. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is a manuscript | |||
| *{{articlelinks|Conor Benn}} | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is a manuscript | |||
| ], so bringing this here. ] and I engaged in an edit war at ], which began as a content dispute but is now more of conduct issue. Less than 12 hours after he was blocked (for ), ] shows up as a brand new single-purpose account to make the for the "win", whilst predictably . How is this not ]? | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is a manuscript | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is a manuscript | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is a manuscript | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is a manuscript | |||
| * link to author's website that is a manuscript | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is OA paper per | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is OA paper per | |||
| * link to Zenodo that is a manuscript | |||
| * and links to Zenodo that is OA paper per | |||
| * and links to Zenodo that is a manuscript | |||
| * and links to final published version, OK per , confirmed ) (surprising in light of ) | |||
| * , link to final proof at Zenodo. probably not OK per (is not author's last version prior to journal working on it, but meh) | |||
| I'd be happy to hash out the original content dispute at ] and see if anything needs tweaking at ], but not when there's obvious bad faith tag teaming going on. ] (]) 19:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| What is that, about 40% policy violations. Not OK, is it. ] (]) 22:07, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :It's an LTA trying to cause trouble. Blocked now.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? ] (]) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've restored it to the pre-socking version and {{U|Daniel Case}} has semi-protected the article.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Appreciated. Discussion at the Project forthcoming. ] (]) 20:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| == Potential Block Evasion by IP 47.67.231.5 (Original IP range 47.69.0.0, first sock IP 80.187.75.118) == | |||
| ==Related to the above, but OABOT more broadly== | |||
| This is open access week, and lots of people have been using ] to add links to putatively open access versions of papers to articles. . | |||
| An ] is behaving similary to an ] blocked by last November. The orignal block was later extended due to ]. | |||
| I keep finding ELNEVER links being inserted. | |||
| The location of these IP addresses are all quite similar, which I have attached below. | |||
| I understand that some people are very passionate about OA, and that is fine, but copyright is copyright and ]/] is what it is, which is policy with legal considerations. | |||
| Many journals allow authors to post pre-prints but unless an article was published OA, journals do not allow the final, published version to be posted. | |||
| Examples of such policies are | |||
| * Science's, which says {{tq|... 6) Post a copy of the "Accepted Version" of the Work (the version of the paper accepted for publication by AAAS including changes resulting from peer review but prior to AAAS’s copy editing and production) on the Author's personal website or in his/her Institution’s archival database repository, provided a hyperlink to the Work on the Science website is included and provided the "Accepted Version" is marked with the following notice: "This is the author's version of the work. It is posted here by permission of the AAAS for personal use, not for redistribution. The definitive version was published in Science Journal Title {VOL#, (DATE)}, doi: {doi number for your manuscript}"}} | |||
| ** Just now someone did , adding a link to a final, published paper hosted at an academic lab. | |||
| ] (]) 22:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * A different AAAS journal, ''Science Signaling'' has a similar policy (pre-prints OK, final published version not OK, see . | |||
| ** someone links to a copy of the final published paper at '''Zenodo''', a repository that puts the onus on uploaders to ensure the copyright is clear per its . | |||
| :EDIT: The IP is now <s>banned</s> blocked, with the original IP's <s>ban</s> block extended by another three months. ] (]) 23:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * Liebert's policy is and says authors can post preprints but says in bold: "The final published article (version of record) can never be archived in a repository, preprint server, or research network." The link there is to the final published article. | |||
| ::<small>] - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</small> | |||
| ** See followed , hosted at author's faculty website. (someone re-added the link, after I removed it the first time) | |||
| :::Thank you for the correction on my wording. ] (]) 23:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Harassment and personal attacks == | |||
| I have reverted maybe 15 of these in the past couple of days and have not checked all these edits that appeared on my watchlist. I don't have time to review every one of those OA bot edits but am concerned. | |||
| {{u|Riventree}} called another editor and myself a , said to the editor who approved the DYK, and called me an . ] (]) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Should ] be paused until it can be tweaked to better prevent the addition of ]/ ] links, or better instructions given to make people double check its suggestions before implementing them? ] (]) 22:37, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Indef'd. Completely unacceptable behavior. ] (]/]) 23:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks for raising reasonable questions about copyright, Jytdog. The OAwiki campaign (, links to Meta) uses OAbot () to present readers with a "best guess" at a legal, free-to-read version of a paywalled citation. | |||
| ::I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but ''indef'' for a user who ''has'', generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked ''once''? ] (]) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. ] (]/]) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::It did. And 'indefinite' is not 'infinite'; once they acknowledge their error, the block can be lifted, but not before. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Agreed. I would further posit that a user who has been around for fifteen years really ought to know not go on the attack like this. There are ways to discuss content you don't agree with, there was no need for the blown gasket here. I edit conflicted with the above I also was going to add that Indefinite does not mean infinite, they can request an unblock as soon as right now. ] ] 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. ] (]) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this: {{tq|'twas a crime of passion (politics got the better of me)- I really would hate for Misplaced Pages to get drawn into the petty politics of the USA)}}. Since when was a DYK about feminism about petty American politics? I don't usually deal with unblock requests so I'll leave this for another admin, but I don't think they entirely understand why their behaviour is considered problematic. ] ] 01:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::It looks to me like they understand ''what'' they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the ''why'' (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::I tried to see if I could convince them to understand and apologize for it, and I'm confused about why a long-time editor would go off the rails about feminism or politics. It wasn't fruitful. I wish you admins good luck. ] (]) 02:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == Anonymous8206 == | |||
| :The tool then lets an individual, logged-in editor add the link after they deterimine: 1) the existing citation is indeed closed access; 2) the suggested link is actually free-to-read and functional; 3) the two sources match; and 4) the suggested link is likely copyright compliant. Those instructions are on every OAbot page where a suggestion is presented, and links directly to our guidance on determining copyright (, links to Meta). | |||
| {{atop|1=Editor using Misplaced Pages as a social network blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}} | |||
| *{{userlinks|Anonymous8206}} | |||
| Disruptive (soapbox, forum) and personal attacks at ] for over a year. Examples: . | |||
| They have been warned on their talk page multiple times for this, e.g.: ] (]) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Each paper has to be determined on a case-by-case basis by a human (otherwise it would just be an actual bot), because determining licensing involves variables related to the institution, author, journal, date of publication, and version of an article. The way editors can best assess copyright compliance is with Sherpa/Romeo, a website that indexes these fine-grained re-publication rights: . That link is front and center in the oawiki.org/copyright instructions linked on every page of OAbot. | |||
| :] policy applies to every living person, even Donald Trump. I think a topic ban from all things Trump, broadly construed, is called for here. ] (]) 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :Another example of using talk pages as a forum on an unrelated topic: ]. <s>I think a final warning rather than a TBAN would be appropriate.</s> ] (]/]) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I hope this helps explain what is going on. This open access week event is nearing a close and editing activity has slowed down dramatically. With all the usage of the tool, we have a new list of features we want to implement over the next year, and are happy to work with any editor on implementing them! Cheers, ] (]) 23:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I've indef'd this user as not here. Per X-tools, 152/182 edits (83.5%) are in talkspace, 105 are to ] in particular, and 3 are to mainspace. Apart from the problematic Trump edits, most of this user's other edits appear to be similar forumy posts or musings on random talk pages. ] (]/]) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hello and thank you for your work on these edits. I run this tool and am happy to collaborate on tweaking the instructions given to its users. We can surely pause OAbot, but it is currently running out of candidate edits anyway (so I suspect we will not make than a few more hundreds of edits for this campaign, reaching about 2000 edits). Pinging {{u|Ocaasi (WMF)}} and {{u|Lauren maggio}} who are involved in the project. Cheers. − ] (]) 23:07, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :In short no. The bot does its job, and it does it well . If people abuse the bot, it's people who need to be educated about not abusing it. Also, as I've mentioned previously, author's personal pages are not repositories, preprint servers, or research networks, and fall well within fair use. <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 23:15, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd quibble with that. Each edit is made by an individual editor and it is their job to determine copyright compliance as best they can. That doesn't mean OAbot is absolved of responsibility; we should be doing as good a job as possible to present good suggestions in the tool, and to help editors make a smart judgement. | |||
| ::You're right that author webpages differ at times from repositories, but they are no different in being inherently "fair use" (a term which couldn't automatically override ELNEVER). Author webpage republishing rights is also something indexed precisely in Sherpa/Romeo, which again we link to in the instructions on every page of OAbot where you can make an edit. The bot does do its job well, but this is a good time to figure out how it can be made even better. Cheers, ] (]) 23:21, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Right, so in mentioned here in the section above, the placement of final-form copies of articles from the journal ''Bioethics'' is a copyright violation, and {{u|Nemo bis}} linking to these uploads is a no-no - and the flippant disregard for the issue they show on their use Talk page compounds the problem. Digging a little deeper, it appears WMF Italy may have been encouraging authors into incautious uploads of copyrighted content which might have been at least, unwise. ] (]) 07:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Hi ], calling that "encouraging authors into incautious uploads of copyrighted content" is inaccurate as the authors were encouraged to respect the publisher's self-archiving policy. Of course it is possible that some authors disregarded or misunderstood this, so it is totally possible that some uploads have issues. Cheers. − ] (]) 10:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::{{u|Pintoch}} I don't see that at all. From the blog post I link: "the message thanked them for contributing sources to Misplaced Pages, presented them with the dilemma of a simple volunteer editor who wants to link an open access copy for all Misplaced Pages users to see, and asked to check the publication on Dissemin to read more about its legal status '''and to deposit it'''." . My first check on Dissemin was the bioethics article I mentioned and the record is wrong (or circularly points to the zenodo copy for a kind of copyright-laundering). As to "it is possible that some authors disregarded or misunderstood this" - it takes two to communicate and all I am seeing from the enablers of this problem is arrogant brush offs and protestations it's nothing to do with them. We have a situation where copyright violating links are now in place. What do we do? Does WP take this seriously, or does it just shrug? ] (]) 19:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::{{u|Alexbrn}} First, the reason why the author was encouraged to deposit their paper is that the publisher's policy allows this, for some version of the paper (preprint, and postprint after an 2 years embargo period). So, it is absolutely fine to encourage a deposit in general: it would only be wrong to encourage depositing the published version (whose self-archival seems prohibited indeed). The message did mention that the user should take into account the publisher's policy ({{tq|legal status}}). So, based on this account of the email at least, I don't see anything wrong. Then, can you tell me exactly what is wrong with https://dissem.in/p/90867516/homeopathy-is-unscientific-and-unethical-homeopathy-is-unscientific-and-unethical ? It does point to the Zenodo copy, because the article is indeed available there now that the article has been deposited via Dissemin to Zenodo. That is totally intended: Dissemin tries to assess the availability of this article on the web, so if it knows about a copy, it displays it (and that is by no means an assessment of the copyright status of this copy - I don't really understand why you consider it to be {{tq|a kind of copyright-laundering}}). When the user has used Dissemin to deposit the paper, of course this link was not there (because the paper had not been deposited yet) and the publisher's policy was displayed to them (pretty much like https://dissem.in/b/7/wiley, you can try for yourself by attempting to deposit this paper yourself), and they have had to select which of the three versions they were depositing. Most major scholarly repositories are much less explicit about publisher policies than that. So, I really do not see where we have failed to communicate here. If you have any concrete suggestions of changes of wording in the emails or the interface of Dissemin, we can discuss them. Sorry if these explanations read like an {{tq|arrogaant brush off}}, that is totally not my intention: I am just trying to help you narrow down your accusation to a concrete breach on our side, so that we can identify it and do better next time. Cheers − ] (]) 21:14, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I don't think you're giving an arrogant brush off, but that's what I got when I raised the issue (see section above). I don't know what's in the emails so I can't propose wording - all I know is what is reported in that blog post, which seems - as I said - incautious. I can also see what, in reality, has happened. The breach here is because the journal ''Bioethics'' does not allow re-distribution of final-form published articles, but that is what apparently has been done. It is a kind of copyright-laundering because as a result of this apparent breach, the Dissemin site is now saying that PDF is available as a "green" open resource. This is just one example. What's to be done? ] (]) 21:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Can you please point me to any indication that Dissemin claims anything about the legal status of the PDF files it points to? It's easy to add a section in the FAQ to clarify that if you want. Do you also accuse search engines like Google Scholar or ] to do some "copyright laundering" by pointing to the files they index? Also, I don't think this discussion really belongs here as Misplaced Pages administrators don't have much to do with Dissemin itself (but OAbot yes of course). − ] (]) 09:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The indication comes from having a green icon (which colour is associated with free usage) and a download button which gets you the PDF for free (apparently a copyvio). If authors are directed to dissemin to find out about a document's legal status, what do you think they would conclude from the way the article download is presented in this case? ] (]) 10:36, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * The problem here is that the tool (it is a tool) can be used with care or carelessly. My take is that Pintoch and Ocasi are being pretty reasonable and they are saying that they have tried to make it as easy as possible to use with care, but nobody can help it if somebody buys a hammer and smashes someone's head in with it. Or, "guns don't kill people, people kill people". | |||
| : I encourage people to check out OABOT - it is . | |||
| : a) the tool appears to be built to encourage rapid processing of opportunities, and not to build in caution. I think more caution should be built in. | |||
| : b) for example, there is no warning on the bot working page, that adding a link to an unauthorized version is a violation of ], and that adding such links can lead to a block of the user - that the user is responsible for their use of the tool | |||
| : c) there should also be a warning that it is '''not common''' for the published version to be open access, and users should check carefully to ensure that if the bot suggests a link to the final published versions, that the user should check to make sure it is OK. | |||
| : d) the link to "sherpa" is not right there on the working page. Instead, a link to sherpa is provided in that is linked-to from the bot page. That does not encourage use of sherpa. (is it possible for the sherpa results to be presented on the bot working page?) | |||
| : -- ] (]) 22:40, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks for this constructive feedback! Most of this can be done (including presenting sherpa results on the tool itself), with some work. I will see what I can do. − ] (]) 09:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| This is probably a sock of an editor who has been blocked immediately in the past. See {{User|Dragonrap2}}, {{User|104.243.160.113}}, {{User|WXA53}}, {{User|Futurewiki}}, {{User|104.243.169.127}}, {{User|104.243.167.109}}, {{User|Futuristic21}}, {{User|Futurewiki2}}, {{User|Mega256}}, {{User|Futurewiki The Third}}, {{User|Mega257}}, {{User|Mega258}}, {{User|Futurew}}, {{User|104.243.166.108}}, {{User|104.243.170.125}}, and {{User|Mr. Jazz, Rhythm & Blues}}. Thanks! ] (]) 23:01, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : Range blocked again, but it's easier to track cases when they're filed at ]. ] (]) 06:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == BeywheelzLetItRip == | |||
| This user is being disruptive. I was just inserting harmless jokes into[REDACTED] that i was going to self-revert after 5 minutes. Then this user starts giving me warnings for “vandalism” when that’s not what i was doing. They keep reinstating them even though i’m ] to blank my own talk page. -- {{user|161.202.81.220}} | |||
| :The problem being that the OP continued to post his junk after being warned. ]. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :The OP's edits were not constructive - nothing to see here. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 01:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Not quite - the OP ''is'' allowed to remove comments from his talk page, and restoring them was not appropriate. However, the OP's claims that his vandalisms were not vandalisms is where the boomerang comes in. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::I am chiefly concerned with the "harmless joke" business - I agree that they can blank their talkpage, but a better course is to simply stop messing with the encyclopedia, rather than wasting everybody else's time. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 01:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The OP should be put on ice for a reasonable interval, and the only possible action to be taken against the subject of the OP's complaint is a gentle wake-up that user's are allowed to delete most stuff from their own talk pages. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 03:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Blocked with a note of ''If you're familiar with ],'' '' you're familiar enough with our policies to know that inserting jokes is not permitted.'' ] (]) 04:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Undeclared COI editor constantly adding their website to article == | |||
| {{user|Maceddy}} | |||
| Above user clearly has a conflict of interest on ] and has now repeatedly readded a link to their website even after I left them a notice on their talk page regarding COI as well as a link to ] in one of my edit summaries. They don't seem to understand why that is a bad thing and regardless of my attempts it doesn't seem like they are getting the point as to why that is not acceptable. They also have not declared their obvious conflict of interest. Requesting administrator assistance in this matter. --] (]) 05:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :You're probably right that some of the content is not OK, and I think there may be a notability problem here, but what tells you there's a COI? ''']]''' 05:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ec}} Their username matches the website they keep trying to insert. Which, generally, would be enough for an advertising block (at least in past experience). Ms. Rich is also the President of the Mac/Eddy Club, the official website of which is the same website that the account keeps trying to add.<p>As for notability there already was an AfD. I have been trying to find sourcing when this whole thing came up. --] (]) 06:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Got it. I'd like others to look at the sources listed in ] and opine on notability. I think this is superficial coverage. ''']]''' 06:07, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * ] ] (]) 19:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Persistent use of fansites at snooker player articles == | |||
| {{atop|I pulled the trigger on the blacklisting request per prevailing opinions in this discussion (no opinion on the sites), and disabled the links in this section to allow archiving —] <sup>] ]</sup> 15:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| * {{LinkSummary|cuetracker.net}} | |||
| * {{LinkSummary|snookerinfo.webs.com}} | |||
| * {{LinkSummary|prosnookerblog.com}} | |||
| * {{LinkSummary|snookerstatistics.webs.com}} | |||
| ===Background=== | |||
| ;The problem | |||
| I would like to get advice/recommendations/suggestions to help resolve the impasse at snooker player articles which use fansites to source career statistics. The biggest problem is occurring at ]. The problem we face is that snooker's governing body doesn't maintain a centralised record of career statistics, so we are often dependent on the media and event broadcasters to fill in the blanks. Unfortunately many blanks still remain so fansites attempt to fill them in themselves. Most of the controversy revolves around prize money and century counts, so significant statistics in snooker. Unfortunately these fansites are not consistent and often contradict more reliable sources where they exist. I am just going to highlight the problem at the O'Sullivan article because this is where it is at its worst, and that article is GA rated. I appreciate my report is long and most of your have better things to do, but it does involve biographies of living people so it is important that the issue at least gets a fair hearing. | |||
| ;The sites | |||
| These are the fansites that the data is often cribbed from: | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| ;Examples of anomalies | |||
| Now, some of these sites are very good, especially Cue Tracker which has an excellent database of match results. The problem with these websites though is that their records are often incomplete and also it is not immediately clear which matches "count" towards the stats so discrepencies inevitably creep in. Here are just some examples of anomalies, and there are countless others: | |||
| # Prior to being overtaken by Ronnie O'Sullivan, ] held the century count (775) record upon retirement. This is well documented by the , (the official governing body), and . Yet persists with sticking Hendry on 772 century breaks. | |||
| # There is also an inconsistency between and over the amount of prize money O'Sullivan has won. Eurosport maintains it is £8.5 million while CueTracker states £9 million. This is important because CueTracker's figure would hand O'Sullivan the record, but no other site or publisher is reporting this. If O'Sullivan had taken the reord it probably would have been reported elsewhere. | |||
| # has ] listed on 338 century breaks, contradicting and the that he retired on 355 centuries. Snooker.info is particularly problematic because errors instigated here at Misplaced Pages have transferred to Snooker.info in the past. I don't have an example of this but I have noticed it while updating articles, which means that Snooker.info is using Misplaced Pages as a source. | |||
| # The problems at Snooker.info transfer to , which uses Snooker.info as a source (as acknowledged in the blurb). | |||
| Clearly this is why we don't allow self-published sites in the first place except in extremely limited circumstances. If the sites were all consistent I might be able to overlook it, but the inconsistencies mean it is not clear who is right and who is wrong. It makes the stats in our articles essentially worthless. | |||
| ;Ongoing discussions and existing consensus | |||
| This has been extensively discussed at ] but as you can see the anonymous editors refuse to back down or accept that these fansistes are inaccurate, instead arguing that it is World Snooker and the BBC that are wrong. I have my suspicions that at least one of these editors is linked in some way to Snooker.info. There was also an RFC at ] where the consensus was that it was not acceptable to uses these sites on the snooker player articles. This consensus is effectively being ignored. | |||
| ;Ongoing problems | |||
| In September the O'Sullivan article was semi-protected by {{u|Ritchie333}} for "Violations of the biographies of living persons policy". After coming out of protection the pushing of fansite stats has resumed: | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| I requested further protection at ] yesterday but it hasn't been picked up. The background is complicated so I understand why an admin wouldn't want to just wade in and lock up an article, but the deadlock on this issue needs to be broken. An RFC, talk page discussion and semi-protection does not seem to have had any impact as yet. I am on the verge of taking the article off my watchlist because I have grown weary of the issue, so this is a last ditch attempt to try and find some sort of solution. | |||
| ] (]) 00:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *I made a similar point at ] on 6 October. No response (as expected). My suspicion was that this was in some way affecting betting odds. The geolocation to Poland might well be a complete re-herring, of course. 13:18, 29 October 2017 (UTC)] (]) | |||
| ===Discussion=== | |||
| Is it just a problem with this one article? If not, should we consider adding the relevant blogs to the ] of English Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 01:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :The problem is prevalent on many snooker player articles. I have highlighted the issue at the O'Sullivan article because it is GA rated and the discussions have mostly taken place on this article's talk page. CueTracker.com and Snooker.info are both listed at ], but this only reverts once and if not at all if the link is used as a reference. I think adding the four sites to a general blacklist might be a sensible next step. ] (]) 01:21, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I was suggesting bypassing XLinkBot in this case and going straight to the blacklist, and didn't even check whether these sites were already listed. Yes, blacklist is the next logical step. ] (]) 03:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I know little about sport and nothing about snooker. But thank you for the long but clear and readable exposition of the problem, which I think I understand. Two questions for y'all (and especially ]). First, would it ever be beneficial to cite any of the fan websites mentioned above? Secondly, if editors weren't able to cite any of them, are there a pile of other, similar websites among which they could choose? If the answer to both is no, then since the problem spans many pages and an unlimited range of IP numbers and is spammish, I'd suggest simply ] the relevant web domains. -- ] (]) 03:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Unless they are ]s, and they don't seem to be, they shouldn't be cited. This may not stop the IPs updating the pages with statistics from these sites, just from citing them as the source. | |||
| :I'm taking that attitude that if our information from reliable sources is incomplete, we shouldn't fill the gaps from less reliable sources, particularly if on other matters these less than reliable sources are contradicted by better ones. ] (]) 04:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::The arguments here show a good case for semiprotection of ] independent of whether the fansites are blacklisted, so I've gone ahead with six months of semiprotection. If there are other high-ranking snooker players that are also affected by the fansite issue, I imagine they should be looked at as well to see if semiprotection is justified. ] (]) 04:18, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Unfortunately there is no centralised pool of data, which is partly the reason editors have resorted to using fansites. World Snooker periodically announce stats when records are broken, and the BBC often provide a statistical breakdown when they broadcast tournaments (three times per year). Obviously there are long periods inbetween when the statistics are out of date. It is frustrating so I understand why these articles have become reliant on fansites. As for the sites themselves, they vary in quality: '''Snooker.info''' should be definitely blacklisted given the fact it sometimes uses Misplaced Pages a source (and there is an argument for blacklisting '''Pro Snooker Blog''' too given that it uses Snooker.info as a source). I know very little about '''snookerstatistics.webs.com''' but it offers no more than the other sites do, while '''CueTracker''' is easily the best but still contains inaccuracies. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation for the snooker project: by allowing these sites we end up with more incorrect data in the articles, but by banning them we end up with less accurate data too. ] (]) 04:35, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I should have expressed myself more clearly. Aside from their statistics (whether true or false), would it ''ever'' be beneficial to cite any of the fan websites mentioned above? I mean, does any of them also have material that's clearly reliable and encyclopedic and not also found in sources that are more obviously reliable? If not, then adding each to the blacklist would have no downside, and doing so would save a lot of time for conscientious editors. (If anyone here is unfamiliar with the blacklist, it's not merely a list of domain names that clearly should not be added, it's a list of domain names to which adding links is ''impossible''.) ¶ And a question. You (]) say that by banning (blacklisting?) these websites "we end up with less accurate data". Do you mean that, their age aside, the data in Misplaced Pages would be less reliable? (I'd have thought that it would be better for a Misplaced Pages article to say that the BBC wrote in November 2015 that A was the case than to say that Dubiously Credible Website X wrote in September 2017 that Y was the case.) Or do you have something else in mind? -- ] (]) 05:48, 24 October 2017 (UTC) rephrased ] (]) 07:44, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::By "ending up with less accurate data" I simply meant we would end up with out-of-date data which would be updated less frequently than it is now. I suppose that in itself isn't really a problem in the long-term because ultimately real-time updates are not essential to providing enyclopedic coverage of a person's career. I would also contend that far from being "beneficial", the citing of these websites is actually counter-productive to maintaining a standard that is on par with reputable encylopedias. When our data doesn't match that of the BBC or World Snooker itself then that is a problem. ] (]) 07:54, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Then I still recommend blacklisting. NB ] are strict. We're told: ''There should be clear evidence of '''disruption''', '''persistent spamming''' or otherwise simply violates Misplaced Pages's policies or guidelines''. (Actually I don't understand the second half of that: something in the sentence seems to have got garbled.) What's clear is that this is not something to be done merely because you expect that not doing it will, in the medium/long term, be more of a pain; so only those websites that ''have already'' been persistently and deleteriously linked to are fair game. It could be that blacklisting these will lead to more linking to other, similarly worthless websites; IFF that happens, the latter can be added to the blacklist. -- ] (]) 09:12, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::'''Support''' blacklisting. We seem unanimous that they should '''not''' be cited. ] (]) 09:25, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::'''Support''' blacklisting the four sites listed. ] (]) 06:52, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Comment''' It's great that we have enthusiastic contributors here, but (as a person entirely unfamiliar with snooker) the page seems to have an excessive amount of detail. Can't some of this detail be on a Wiki other than Misplaced Pages? Either one run by a fansite, or Wikia, or a theoretical en.wikialmanac.org? ] (], ]) 16:10, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:Your point is completely valid but not really central to this issue. Something definitely needs to be done about the endless stream of match reports in the article and there is a separate discussion about that at ] if you want to make your viewpoint heard. ] (]) 17:25, 24 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *:Especially if some of this ''excessive amount of detail'' is unsourced or sourced only from less-than-reliable sources, and some of it is even contrary to the detail in reliable sources, which seems to be the case here. Misplaced Pages would IMO be definitely improved by removal of '''all''' of this unsourced and/or poorly sourced detail, which would be entirely consistent with policy and anyone can do it. Misplaced Pages would then IMO be probably improved by the further removal of the remaining gappy data that is adequately sourced but incomplete and likely to remain so. ] (]) 23:45, 25 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ===Conclusion=== | |||
| * '''Comment''' The prevailing opinion in the above discussion seems to be that blacklisting the listed websites is a sensible way forward. I have had to unarchive this incident report because the discussion seems to have fizzled out so is there any chance we can wrap this up formally? ] (]) 13:13, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ** I don't have a lot of experience with the blacklist, but you can submit entries to ]. ] (]) 02:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{abottom}} | |||
| == Red accounts on econ-related pages == | |||
| On econ-related Misplaced Pages pages (e.g. ], ], ]), a "red" account pops up on regular intervals, only to edit war all kinds of fringe text into the articles (serious violations of ] and misrepresentation of sources). The content is always the same poorly sourced and pro-mercantilist nonsense. The text tends to be written extremely poorly, usually with grammatical and spelling errors. The red accounts appear to be from France (judging by the google.fr and blogspot.fr links). These make the same errors and then play coy on talk pages when other editors point out these errors. They never follow the rules laid out by ] and make econ-related pages a temporary mess for one-two weeks: bad content is repeatedly forced into Misplaced Pages pages because other editors are constrained by the ] rule while these accounts keep restoring the bad text. The user is either unable or unwilling to understand what others are saying on talk pages and either unable or unwilling to understand Misplaced Pages policy. The users always force content in and then say that "consensus" is required to remove the content. These are the weird accounts: | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/Shharp | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Nebere | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/James_4 | |||
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Espe9 | |||
| I don't honestly understand what motivates this user to switch accounts, but using new accounts seems like a good way to evade warnings and bans that veteran accounts would face if they engaged in this type of behavior. I'm not sure what Misplaced Pages rules are in place for this kind of behavior, but this is just so extremely frustrating that I wanted to get your take on it. I apologize of this is the wrong board for this. Let me know if there is a better venue for this. ] (]) 13:16, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Snooganssnoogans}} Submit a report at ] and this can be looked into by a clerk. Using multiple accounts on the same pages is a violation of ]. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 16:48, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Investigation into the behaviour of ] == | |||
| *{{userlinks|Chas. Caltrop}} | |||
| I'm writing to clarify the validity of the edit history of this user ]. This user has a very strange style of editing and interacting with others. Their edit summaries are extremely uniform (mostly ''"CE; completed the sentence"''), they seem to have little use for consensus or civility, and appear to have been re-structuring articles to their liking since April 2016 (they may have been confirmed too early, without developing the proper skills). | |||
| They've recently blown up at me personally; pasting as if from another user (on my talk page, and ] talk page). I've discussed and confirmed this with that user This strange overreaction by ] appears to be in response to that they should form a consensus before making drastic changes to ] page (due to its controversial nature). I believe this editor is attempting to intimidate me, and that their longer term behaviour may be detrimental to Misplaced Pages's cultivation of long standing content. | |||
| At the very least, they've failed to come to terms with ], ] or ]. | |||
| I'm worried about further examples too. One such being the article on ] in which they've removed a myriad of sourced material under the '''21st Century''' section reducing it from 8 subheadings, to 3, and what remains is strangely subjective (one of those 3 sections was left to end in an Issac Asimov quote for instance). They seem to prefer offline or off-brand sources that cannot be readily accessed. This (along with run-on sentences) seems to be a theme in their editing history/style. and . | |||
| This user has come to my attention due to their edits on the ] page. Where they've broken the section anchor a few times, at one point , and would prefer the section contain difficult to decipher sentences such as: | |||
| <blockquote>''Proponents of conspiracy-theory Cultural Marxism claim that the existence of liberal social-ideologies — such as feminism, anti-white racism, and sexualization — are real-world negative consequences of critical-theory, despite such unresolved social problems dating from the 1920s.''</blockquote> | |||
| ...as you can see, they're also including some strange political bias/terms, eg. ''anti-white racism'' and claiming it is a ''liberal social-ideology''? | |||
| Anyways, their language and editing style is strange, as is their failure to use talk pages correctly or respect consensus. They seem completely incongruous with Misplaced Pages's general ethos. I would like to see them banned from further editing ] page, and request they be investigated further (by someone more skilled and responsible than myself) for ] editing. Particularly if they are doing so in partisan 'teams', as - or pasting quotes to appear as if they're another user. | |||
| Thank you for any help you can render with this strange issue (I've certainly not seen anything like this before). --] (]) 14:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::It appears other users have also had issues: ], ], ]. To clarify, I'm not out to witch hunt, or demonize, but I also don't think this behaviour is fitting to Misplaced Pages's standards and guidelines (and particularly not to ], ] or ]). I bring this up mostly because it appears to be an ongoing issue, and do so with a view to avoiding any more disruptive edits to ] page - and the content which many editors have worked very hard to develop a consensus on. Thank you again for your administrative efforts on this issue. --] (]) 15:07, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Edit-warring to reinsert promotional linkspam == | |||
| Over the past several days, ] has been on a ] campaign that inserted between 40 and 45 links to film reviews by ] of ''ReelViews''. These apparently ] links — virtually the ''only'' edits he made — were reverted and a message was placed on his talk page advising him that these edits were inappropriate. Two more editors commenting on his talk page told him likewise. He responded at 21:22 and 22:51, 27 October 2017, and seemed to indicate he understood — yet within five minutes, began ] to restore those same roughly 43 edits. | |||
| Not only that, but after having said, "I promise I won't add any new reviews anymore," he did so again and here ! | |||
| Even if his edits were not intended to be promotional, they still wildly violate ]. Since he's choosing to ignore not one but three editors, and to both edit-war and break a promise to discontinue his inappropriate edits, I believe it's necessary to ask for admin intervention before this editor creates more unnecessary work to undo promotional links. I thank you for any help.--] (]) 20:21, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Persistent edit warring and blatant BLP violation == | |||
| Can someone please (a) fix the article move (from ] to ]) and (b) block ] who initiated this move and has persistently edited this article with a clear POV without any participation in Talk and using multiple obvious sockpuppets (e.g., ], ])? Thanks! ] (]) 21:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I have already tagged ] for G6 speedy. According to the user's contribs, they appear to be a single-purpose account whose only contributions are in this article. ] <span style="background-color:#368ec9; color:black; font-family:Papyrus">(Jalen D. Folf)</span> (] • ]) 21:02, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Page moved back to original name, editor blocked 3 days. Considered indef'ing as NOTHERE but didn't. If another admin feels more is warranted, go for it. No comment on the possible socking. -- ] (]) 21:58, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Medeis / μηδείς violating WP:TPOC again == | |||
| {{atop|No more please. --] (]) 12:30, 30 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| {{atop|{{nac}} ] closure. Let's stop this train-wreck now. None of the requested admin actions are going to happen as a result of this thread, so stop it. ] (], ]) 01:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| Medeis / μηδείς violating ] again. ''''''. | |||
| Related: ] --] (]) 23:04, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Good god, Guy, can't you and Medeis discuss these things with each other rather than open {{em|yet another}} thread about the poxy Reference Desk and its internal squabbles? As you've pointed out, we already have a perfectly good open thread regarding Medeis. I'm getting more and more tempted to dust off ] and point it in the general direction of the Reference Desk; even DYK doesn't generate this level of squabble overspillage. ‑ ] 23:18, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please don't make absurd recommendations that you plainly know will go nowhere for the sole purpose of shutting this up. I'm not saying Guy Macon has a convincing case, but we all know that Guy Macon discussing this with Medeis isn't going to be productive. Guy said they'd take it to Arbcom - if that's their plan, then they should get right on it.--v/r - ]] 23:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Medeis is one of several editors who Macon is "not talking to". About, obviously, but not ''to''. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :What we need to do there is a) Get everyone to agree or agree to disagree that we're going to elect a few editors in different time zone's who are sufficiently active to perform these sorts of tasks, and then b) Go ahead and get a few of these editors elected. ] (]) 23:45, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *This is absolutely ridiculous, Guy. See the discussion at ] as well as the discussion of StuRat above. Many editors, including ], who had closed the discussions, have questioned why these were allowed in the first place. My reverting back to his closure, then hatting without deleting the comments StuRat had made after the closures (since he protested) are hardly problematic. There's no violation of TPOC here. Frankly, this is harassment buy Guy Macon, and I do wish he would take the matter to arbcom. ] (]) 23:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **When was the last RFC on the purpose of the reference desks? I see one open about closing them down, but I mean specifically about what kind of questions they support and when is a good time to close a thread.--v/r - ]] 00:01, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ***I closed those threads after comments by the above users, as well as ] and ] as well as the apparent consensus in the StuRat thread open above. So basically consensus is a basis for closing, as is simple WP policy and guidelines like ] which says we don't give financial or other professional advice (like how to open a computer store in Gibraltar) or ]. Every policy that applies to mainspace like OR, CRYSTAL, etc., applies to the Ref Desks. There are even rather clear guidelines at the top of the page that say users need to do research on their own, not rely on us for creative ideas, and so forth. ] (]) 00:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :This section is another bad-faith attempt by Macon to become dictator of the ref desks, and should be closed. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 00:46, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Just part of Guy Macon's ongoing crusade. Clearly a complaint meant to bootstrap his attempt on AN to restrict Medeis' actions on the Ref Desks, which he most lately threatened to take to ArbCom if he didn't get the result he wanted. This is just building "evidence" for that case request. Guy Macon really needs to be topic banned from requesting sanctions on other editors anywhere on Misplaced Pages, because it's getting to be pretty disruptive. ] (]) 01:00, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Support close or withdrawal per one perceived RD problem at a time. This will require some community tolerance for a series of discussions about perceived RD problems, as RD is too sick to be cured overnight. Oppose ad hominem labels and unsubstantiated accusations of bad faith, as always. ―] ] 00:56, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Macon's actions demonstrate what I'm saying. He has appointed himself the dictator of the ref desks, by deciding what its rules are. And "not talking to" anyone who dares to challenge him. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:06, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you for your opinion about Guy Macon, of which all of us are already all too aware. ―] ] 01:11, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Don't cross him, or he won't be talking to you either. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:13, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::He and I have had our share of heated disagreements; the earliest interaction I recall with him was unpleasant. Somehow he still talks to me, and somehow I don't take every opportunity I can find to attack him. Please stop talking to me about Guy Macon. ―] ] 01:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::He didn't fantasize about murdering you, either. So please tell him to close this section. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:19, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| The ref desk is out of control. We should not be giving advice on how to open a computer store in Gibraltar or how to rewire ]’s house. The Admin that reverted my closes has some explaining to do - they better have a VERY good policy reason for overriding my policy based closes. ] (]) 01:11, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :The fact it didn't go your way does not automatically equate to being "out of control". ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:13, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Indeed Baseball Bugs is part of the reason it’s out of control. ] (]) 01:22, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You were recently under serious discussion of being booted from Misplaced Pages altogether, so don't get too high and mighty. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | |||
| *'''Neutral''' - Since it is apparently the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community that we need Reference Desks, removing this contributor is simply a diddle. ] (]) 01:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - Is a ] topic ban against the OP ] filing more threads about the Reference Desks in order? ] (]) 01:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *’’’Comment’’’ ] should not make outlandish statements about me and my standing here. ] should be given the opportunity to justify their reverting of my topic archiving. ] (]) 02:22, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| **Sorry, I must have been thinking of ], wherein you were banned from creating new articles. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 03:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Wrongly based on lies - and the editor started that is now IBANed from bothering me. That has zero to do with this discussion. ] (]) 05:13, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::When was the ban lifted? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 05:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{abot}} | {{abot}} | ||
| ==Two editors edit warring and attacking others while whitewashing fascism of an individual== | |||
| == Vnonymous == | |||
| As the title suggests, this includes: | |||
| Hi, I recently came accross ], I checked the edit history and sources, and concluded the main editor, ] may have been a coi editor. The article which was created in one go, contains a detailed "getting here" section, and borderline promotional claims. | |||
| {{ |
*{{userlinks|SuvGh}} | ||
| ::Making personal attacks such as "Enough of explaining r@cist Brits what to do", "you're probably an ignorant British man", and has tried to remove relevant content about 4 times now. | |||
| *{{userlinks|Camarada internacionalista}} | |||
| I tagged it with notabilty and coi tags, these were swiftly reverted. | |||
| ::Has tried to remove the reliably sourced content 3 times, and used rude editor summaries like "disgusting argument". Has no activity on talk page or anywhere else to address his edits. See ]. | |||
| Both of them were sufficiently warned. ] (]) 02:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Most worrying is vnonymous's repeated reverts of any edit to the article. | |||
| :Blocked SuvGh for 24 hours for personal attacks in edit summaries and violating 3RR in spirit if not in letter (slightly over 24 hours for four reverts but blatant edit-warring). Camarada internatcionalista hasn't breached 3RR but is edit-warring, I'll let another admin decide if they need a block as they aren't ''currently'' editing it appears. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::That talk page section they made should have been removed for being a ] attempt to disparage sources on grounds of national origin. ] (]) 03:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == 2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 - personal attacks == | |||
| Please look into this, I am certain anything I do to the article will likely be reverted, and I don't want to edit war over it. ] 23:42, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I cut out a large portion of the article and made it into a stub. I don't think Vnonymous looks like a SPA paid editor, but they could be covering paid editing activity with legitimate edits. It's worth an explanation about why they are so protective of that article.--v/r - ]] 00:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::] with questionable content and purpose. See the "pricing" section.--v/r - ]] 00:15, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::]. This honestly looks like an overly enthusiastic and eager novice editor without refinement from experience in widely trafficked topics trying to get as much information as possible into their new articles.--v/r - ]] 00:18, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :The signature issue that they were ] in July needs to be addressed. {{u|Vnonymous}}, please get your signature corrected per ]. Thank you.<br /> — ] ] 00:16, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{user|2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64}} I saw an IP making an ] on one user (telling them to resign for being "worthless"), and ]. I think that the /64 edits from a few days ago on the Denali situation are enough to say that they're the same user on the IP, given the political nature. I'm almost certain they're abusing a larger range than this, as zooming out to the /42 shows more political badgering. A previous /64 in that range was blocked as well for similar reasons. ] (]) 04:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == AnonMoos doesn't have to follow the policies == | |||
| == Incivility and edit-warring == | |||
| Despite different editors having asked for reliable sources at ] for fictional additions, one editor, {{u|AnonMoos}} has persistently reverted and *NOT* given any reason founded in policy or guideline but would rather just debate. After I removed the uncited material and pointed out ], I was told that I had given a tirade that was filled with ] and he repeatedly reverts. The editor seems to have serious ] and I would appreciate more eyes on this. Multiple requests for these sources have occurred in different threads on the talk page but the most pertinent begins ]. ] and ] need enforcement. And from what I've read, AnonMoos doesn't belong on article talk pages "helping" at this point.<br /> — ] ] 02:00, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Berean_Hunter is playing an unhelpful role on this article, launching into an inaccurate and shallow ranting tirade filled with non-factual information and original research on the article talk page, and claiming that as a basis for removing material from the article. He's already declared in advance that he will completely disregard any sources that conflict with his inaccurate personal opinions (see ), so I really don't know why I should exert myself trying to find any on that basis. | |||
| :The basic fact is that Indiana Jones is the fictional poster-boy for Ophidiophobia in the same way that Dr. Strangelove is for ] ("hence the condition's common association with the character"), and anyone with a real interest in improving the Ophidiophobia article would be trying to support the fact, not remove it... ] (]) 03:00, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| This is concerning user ] (] and ]). A new user, who initially made several good faith mistakes related to providing sources and not using original research. However, he also decided that the Afghanistan population at ] needed to be correct. A history of the edit war, which involved Thelittlefaerie vs three other editors (including me): | |||
| This is an editing dispute that doesn't need ANI intervention. Indiana Jones' dislike of snakes is well-known, but asking for a reference isn't unreasonable. ] (], ]) 03:04, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Users involved: | |||
| :No. Policy has been violated...]. I have asked for admin enforcement of that policy and since it is frowned upon when admins engage in self-help, this is the right place. After multiple requests, this needs to be met. "Indiana Jones' dislike of snakes is well-known" means that you haven't realized that this isn't the right article for that claim...and haven't read or understood the threads.<br /> — ] ] 03:19, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Thelittlefaerie}} | |||
| :Power~enwiki -- inserting a "citation needed" tag (something that no one has actually done) would be perfectly reasonable, but deleting the mention from the article borders on the unreasonable, and deleting the mention from the article based on Berean_Hunter's inaccurate personal opinions is pretty close to nonsensical. ] (]) 03:29, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Wizmut}} | |||
| ::Your response to another editor's continued polite requests for sources was met with , "{{green|Unfortunately, your abstract metaphysical devotion to the theoretical Platonic idea of exalted Misplaced Pages sourcing ideals, combined with your complete and utter ignorance of what is actually being discussed, is what I find to be somewhat off-putting (it certainly does not practically move things along in a constructive direction that will clearly lead to the real world improvement of the article)...}}" | |||
| ::This is a behavioral issue if you refuse to follow policies and just revert.<br /> — ] ] 03:39, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|MIHAIL}} | |||
| :::You've that you'll completely disregard any sources which disagree with your inaccurate personal opinions, so that sure doesn't provide me with any incentive to find such. The Ophidiophobia of Indiana Jones isn't quite in ] territory, but it's clearly verging towards it -- many tens of millions of ordinary viewers of the movies are clear that the character fears snakes, yet people come along on the Ophidiophobia page and don't add a "citation needed" tag, but rather create unnecessary antagonism by insisting on completely deleting any mention of this from the article. ] (]) 03:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{Userlinks|Magnolia677}} | |||
| ::::This is, of course, primarily a content dispute that should be resolved by more collaborative talk page discussion, an RfC, or other forms of dispute resolution. That being said, it is really quite remarkable that {{u|AnonMoos}} has spent nearly eight years defending an unsourced psychiatric diagnosis of a fictional character in an article about a phobia. {{u|Berean Hunter}} criticizes this content quite calmly and reasonably, and AnonMoos responds by calling their argument a "ranting tirade" and "semi-incoherent". Am I alone in perceiving that assessment as just plain wrong and excessively hostile? ] ] 04:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Dates: | |||
| :::::Bingo. That is why there are CIR issues that I'm hoping others figure out. I haven't looked at his other interactions but I really hope he isn't like this elsewhere. I've realized that talking to him is fruitless and that is why I'm here.<br /> — ] ] 04:10, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| 20 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie changes the figure without a source, which is reverted by me. For this article, unsourced changes happen regularly, so I did not take the effort to give Thelittlefaire much explanation. | |||
| :::::Cullen328 -- if you consider Berean_Hunter's article talk page comments "calm and reasonable", then your perception of reality would appear to have few points of contact with mine (I would consider them condescending and error-filled). However, I'm not a psychologist, and I'm not pretending to offer a professional diagnosis -- just stating the fact (which seems extremely obvious to me, and probably millions of others) than the Indiana Jones movies clearly convey the message that the character hates and fears snakes. Deleting material from the article based on ignoring this obvious fact does not seem like a constructive move to me. ] (]) 04:22, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No, {{u|AnonMoos}}. ''No''. ] ''requires'' that a factual assertion which has been challenged must be backed by a reference to a reliable source, and in an article about a medical topic, that needs to be an ''impeccably reliable source''. So, I suggest that you either provide such a source post haste or step aside. ] ] 04:33, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| 21 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie tries again, this time using a source, but an unreliable one. | |||
| ::::(ec) "you'll completely disregard any sources which disagree with your inaccurate personal opinions"...nope, that is being done to make sure that the sources are quality and not some forum, movie critic or imdb page. Fancruft really works to undermine an article that is supposed to be on a serious subject. However, if you could find a quality source then we should be able to agree collectively. Right now, you have been a consensus of one that has reverted multiple editors who have a collective consensus which is already backed in policy.<br /> — ] ] 04:10, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| 22 Dec 2024 : I revert, mentioning the selection criteria for this article's sources. Thelittlefaerie reverts, and also reverts an unrelated change. I leave it, and instead start a topic on the ]. | |||
| :::::There's been other stuff on the article from time to time which could be called fancruft, but Indiana Jones is not "fancruft", since it's the well-known single phobia of an otherwise almost fearless character who is the main title character of one the biggest-grossing movie series of all time... ] (]) 04:30, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| 26 Dec 2024 : User ] (] and ]) changes the figure back to an official source. (yes that government does use google drive links) | |||
| :::::I suggested a couple of sources at the talkpage. ] (]) 07:26, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| *'''My 2¢''' Pretty much what Cullen wrote ^^^^^. This is not rocket science or something that requires a degree in wiki-law. Any claim of fact that is not obviously non-controversial requires a citation to a reliable source. If a claim of fact that is not cited is challenged then a citation '''must''' be added before it can be re-added to the article. End of story. -] (]) 14:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| 3 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie changes it back to his version, and in the edit summary he uses the phrase ''"This is your final straw."'' | |||
| == IP user repeatedly posting a piece of personal information == | |||
| {{Archive top|reason=Settled. ~ ]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">]</sup> 12:53, 30 October 2017 (UTC)}} | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/203.30.136.34 | |||
| 7 Jan 2025 : MIHAIL changes it back. His edit summary in full: ''"why insist with UN or copies of UN when you have official data ?... i've seen Thelittlefaerie vandalize certain pages... the official matters, not fanaticism"''. In a vain attempt to help matters, I add a footnote to the Afghanistan entry detailing three different estimates. | |||
| Highly suspicious edits are being made by an IP editor, who has continually posted similar name and address of what appears to be a private individual and/or company name （in both talk pages and in edit summaries). I'm not sure what the correct procedure is in this case and I lack the rights or the time to be able to revert each individual entry. Would an administrator take the time to look at this case. Thank you. ] (]) 07:29, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| 16 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie again, this time including in his edit summary ''"And now you are acting like a complete fool. I am DONE WITH THIS. You are just a terrible person."'' and also ''"Either stop or I'll keep making edits."'' This edit was particularly troublesome, not only for the incivility, but because he reverted over a dozen unrelated edits. This was reverted by ]. | |||
| *I wrote to oversight@ . Next time, don't post pointers to private stuff like that here. Email as instructed in the edit notice that pops up when you edit this page. ''']]''' 07:38, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Understood, and apologies, I' didn't notice the red box info and scrolled straight down to the text box. I was in a bit of a rush - Do I need to delete any of the info I posted (i.e. the ANI notice at the IP's talk page)? I'm reading that message about privacy related matters and kicking myself a bit now. Thanks so much for taking the time to email the correct channel. Much appreciated. ] (]) 08:07, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{Archive bottom}} | |||
| 17 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie says he ''"could not reach out to you Magnolia677"'' (I can see no such attempt) and reverts again. This again reverts over a dozen unrelated changes, so I do the revert this time, and also try to warn Thelittlefaerie on the talk page and on his user page. | |||
| 22 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie comes back and reverts, without affecting other entries and without incivility. After this, he finally posts on the talk page, with the argument: ''"I am putting the right source and this is the right version. Please do not change."'' | |||
| Someday, we are going to turn this into a proper structured page. When you go to edit you are presented with a menu. If you click the box indicating you need revision deletion or oversight, it doesn't post here but takes you to the right place. If you want to report some vandalism, it let you do so, but it automatically brings you to AIV. If you want to report something that belongs here, it asks you who is involved, and when you add the names, it automatically notifies them for you. If you really know what you are doing, you can opt out of the menu. | |||
| I would like help in responding to this user, who has exhausted my patience. | |||
| Frankly, I'm getting tired of seeing oversight request after oversight request after oversight request. We tell him they aren't supposed to do with that, but that may sink into the person that made this request — it is in reaching the person who's going to make the next requests had no equally will ignore the big red warning.--]] 15:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 04:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :I'd not heard of an oversight request till this morning. Frankly, here's a biscuit and a pat on the back to get you through the lonely nights you are going to spend coding a more explanatory page. I didn't notice the red warning box partly because I was lazily clicking and didn't look, but also partly because I have my monitor set to display everything in an energy and eye saving gun metal grey color - so some radio buttons and check boxes would be lovely, thanks. Much love. ] (]) 15:36, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
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User:Jaozinhoanaozinho and persistant WP:SYNTH, WP:PROFRINGE, and WP:GNG-failing articles
This section has been stale for a few days and was at the top of ANI (i.e. the oldest un-archived post) and about to be automatically archived without action. I find consensus for an indefinite (not infinite, you may appeal your restriction at WP:AN if you can create some articles through AfC that demonstrate a better understanding of the policies) ban from creating articles in main space against User:Jaozinhoanaozinho. They may only create articles using the AfC process. This editing restriction will be logged at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Misplaced Pages community. MolecularPilot 03:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Jaozinhoanaozinho has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH seems to be lacking substantially.
- Danish expedition to North America was deleted for WP:PROFRINGE
- Da Serra–American conflict on WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH grounds
- They've been warned about creating hoax articles and continued doing so.
- Warned for copyright issues which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in Potato Revolt)
- Plenty of articles containing only one source Siege of Campar, Battle of Cape Coast (1562), Battle of Lucanzo (1590), Portudal–Joal Massacre, Battle of the Gambia River (1570), Battle of Mugenga
Most recently there's Battle of Naband, which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.
Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. I tried bringing this up with them but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to WP:WIKIHOUND someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a WP:PROFRINGE article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. Doug Weller talk 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- I checked this Battle of Naband which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? scope_creep 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Late addendum, but it looks like the user in question was tagged by a research team on their talk page as possibly using AI to edit, which would track with the article writing vs content quality if it's the case. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- AI detection methods are so faulty that I’m 100% willing to accept this as truth. Sorry about that. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I noticed that too, but I didn't realize it was referring to AI since I didn’t know what "LLM" meant, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But just to clarify, I don't use AI for research when creating my articles or for improving my writing. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:
- 1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "Theory of the Portuguese discovery of Australia," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
- 2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
- 3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
- 4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
- 5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
- 6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
- 7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.
- Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts". Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.
- I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between WP:WIKIHOUNDING and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.
I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.
- Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails WP:GNG doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass WP:GNG and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example
A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".
- I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have WP:SYNTH issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass WP:GNG before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that is in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. Black Kite (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the original research policy. I propose and support a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating WP:OR, they gain that necessary understanding/competence. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
- SUPPORT ban from article creation. Doug Weller talk 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. scope_creep 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support article creation ban. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. Barbary–Portuguese conflicts. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, I think the issue might have been with the article describing the events as "course of hostilities" which could make it seem like it was a continuous conflict. I've fixed that to make it clear now. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: While this grows stale, more possibly synth articles are being created. Barbary–Portuguese conflicts. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
| WP:SOCK. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
- Comment I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Battle of Lucanzo (1590). There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. scope_creep 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment This is editor is still creating dog poor articles Cult Member. This is the second in days thats been speedied. scope_creep 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. Doug Weller talk 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Me (DragonofBatley)
It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save @KJP1: the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Notifying other editors from the wider discussions @PamD:, @Noswall59:, @Rupples:, @Crouch, Swale:, @KeithD:, @SchroCat:, @Tryptofish:, @Cremastra: and @Voice of Clam:. If I missed anyone else sorry DragonofBatley (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity. Schazjmd (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also this discussion: Special:PermanentLink/1269282704#Dragon. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. I'm glad to see that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.
- I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. WP:JAN25 is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, then we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.
- I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to draft articles in userspace and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.
- Happy editing, Cremastra (u — c) 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as User:DragonofBatley/Interesting topics list. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- These are good points.
- However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI-like thing may be in order. WP:Failed verification cleanup project, anyone? Cremastra (u — c) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add DragonofBatley (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC DragonofBatley (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- asilvering (talk) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- DragonofBatley has agreed to a voluntary editing restriction to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- asilvering (talk) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will DragonofBatley (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? voorts (talk/contributions) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for All Saints Church, Wellington. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see any new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - SchroCat (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) KJP1 has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - SchroCat (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you All Saints Church, Wellington. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a great point, you're right, @SchroCat. Schazjmd (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I responded to @Voorts earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with WP:Geoland WP:Notability and WP:Sourcing. Also conflict edit was not directed at @SchroCat, there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's All Saints Church, Wellington was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from Listed buildings in Wellington, Shropshire and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.
- And Dragon's version as submitted to AfC also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. PamD 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
The issues are Verifiability and source integrity; Notability; and the suggestion of Sockpuppetry while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.
Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, Talk:All Saints Church, Wellington, which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises Competency issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.
That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. KJP1 (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. Rupples (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @Rupples or @Voorts. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @Schazjmd and @SchroCat's earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. DragonofBatley (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the WP:V and WP:N concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).
- As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.
- There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.
- Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.
- For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, this needs to be a final warning in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -Noswall59 (talk) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —Noswall59 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at User talk:DragonofBatley.) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked. PamD stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular Crouch, Swale. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (their talk page in July 2023). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point WP:CIR has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)
- Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: 'Woods Bank is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with Dragon's work on it: he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
- Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content here calling it "irrelevant". At User talk:KJP1, PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article St Peter and St Paul Church, Caistor, as he left it, cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, All Saints Church, Wellington, the entire Architecture section was added by other(s). However, their church articles always contain something like
The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.
sourced to achurchnearyou.com, often as a separate "Present day" section. DragonofBatley's version of All Saints' Church, Batley (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose:All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.
(And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing St Augustine of Canterbury, Rugeley and St Augustine's Church, Rugeley, both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.) - Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as here, was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
- Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.
There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note Liz has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that Woods Bank instance (at the end of this edit, which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. Cremastra (u — c) 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd like to point to WP:Zeroth law of Misplaced Pages: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).
- I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at User_talk:KJP1#Dragon and Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity, and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked.
- I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.
- Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for Chew Stoke, which is also the example of a lead in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.
- Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - removing a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and taking an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.
- The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, All Saints Church, Wellington (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).
- It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.
- Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. PamD 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work
I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've got some experience of CCI investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the 400-odd articles that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. KJP1 (talk) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there DragonofBatley (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
- In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
voorts - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. Sound of evil laughter.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- How's this draft proposal: DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace, converting redirects to articles, or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects.
- Having seen Dragon's work on Holme Lacy yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing.
- And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. PamD 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. KJP1 (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: Adding an infobox? Adding a few words about local authority area? Adding a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. PamD 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to Trafford, never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. PamD 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the question PamD. To clarify, I meant any expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing anywhere on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " PamD 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, looks good. @KJP1 what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? Cremastra (u — c) 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Cremastra - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hold on. This goes much further than @Voorts wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? Rupples (talk) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at Trafford. I've lost patience. PamD 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:
- No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects
- No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?)
- No editing in mainspace.
- PamD 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:
- In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at Trafford. I've lost patience. PamD 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, looks good. @KJP1 what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? Cremastra (u — c) 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " PamD 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the question PamD. To clarify, I meant any expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing anywhere on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to Trafford, never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. PamD 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: Adding an infobox? Adding a few words about local authority area? Adding a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. PamD 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. KJP1 (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):
- Option A: DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.
- Option B: DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded.
- Option C: DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.
- The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but would personally favour Option B. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into Trafford, a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1: I made some changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- p.s. Trafford this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. KJP1 (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? Rupples (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. KJP1 (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Rupples (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1 and @Rupples: option C amended below. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. Rupples (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. KJP1 (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1: I made some changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? PamD 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but would personally favour Option B. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into Trafford, a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s)
DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):
- Option A: DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.
- Option B: DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to oppose a PROD.
- Option C: DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except: (1) to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded; (2) to comment in AfD discussions or to oppose PRODs or CSDs regarding those articles; or (3) to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.
The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Uninvolved editors
- Oppose all. I would have voted Option B, but the user demonstated enough maturity and self-criticism, meaning he's willing to improve his long-term contribution. Moreover, even if it could have been embarrassing to admit, he also cared enough to inform us he's on the spectrum, and as a neurodivergent myself, I know that's hard. My two cents go to DragonofBatley. You're welcome! Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Proposal: Could we maybe allow DoB to continue editing mainspace if, and only if, any additions/edits they make are supported by a reference, to which the quote that supports the edit must be added. That will make it easier for us to double check their work and allow DoB to refine their skills in supporting their edits.Boynamedsue (talk) 10:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Involved editors
- @KJP1, Cremastra, Rupples, PamD, DragonofBatley, Crouch, Swale, SchroCat, Tryptofish, and Noswall59. (Apologies if I missed anyone.) voorts (talk/contributions) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support option A as proposed for 6 months. I think its quite clear that that is needed given as noted the burden this might have on AFC but I'm willing to consider allowing some AFC say 1 article a week but I think it might be better to wait until the cleanup has been done the they have demonstrated the ability to create suitable articles. I would say it would be fine for DragonofBatley to ask KJP1 or Cremastra or another experienced user (if they explain their restrictions) to move drafts they have created to mainspace but I would not suggest they do that until the cleanup has been completed. I would also support option B I would consider allowing an appeal of only 2 or 3 months as this restriction is much more restrictive but I think given as noted by PamD their problems with editing existing articles this might well be helpful especially since if they can't create new articles I'd expect a shift towards the problems with existing articles. Oppose option C as (1) I'm not aware of problems outside mainspace and (2) I think in any case this would be too restrictive at least for 6 months, if C is done I'd at least support allowing appeal after 2 or 3 months. So in summary I think option B plus 1 article through AFC every week or every other week would be the best option but I don't have a strong opinion. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose all, as written. Sorry, this has changed from what I could support. First, in the draft version that I suggested, I had the word "successfully" in the sentence that mentions KJP1 and Cremastra: "only if DragonofBatley successfully participates...". That's important. The coordinators will need to evaluate whether or not he "got the message", not just whether he made some token effort, and their evaluation needs to have a meaningful role in the consideration of an appeal. I definitely cannot support A, because I think his mainspace editing needs to be restricted to fixing his mistakes. Anything less does not comport with the facts as we have them. As for B and C, I agree with participation in AfD, but that's in project space, not mainspace. I think objecting to PRODs or CSDs is not worth allowing. C comes closest to how I feel, but I don't feel that we need to make formal restrictions of his editing outside of mainspace. He should be able to communicate on his talk page and user page, without being restricted, and he should probably be able to comment on talk pages of articles. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- C if anything. (Again, wasn't pinged, but I have been a bit involved.) DragonofBatley keeps demonstrating borderline lack of competence. Most recently inserting one of his collages into an FA (I'd forgotten he also added collages) and getting the captions wrong. The clarity and correctness of the posting here is also at or below the standard we should expect for a participant in a writing project:
If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree.
I don't trust their judgement on what is an improvement to an article; and how far should we stretch to try to accommodate someone who needs so many curbs and guiderails? I deeply appreciate the willingness of other editors to help them with the task of cleaning up their articles (as well as all the time and effort some editors have already expended trying to advise and help them); I recognise that there are legitimately differing views on some of what they like to do, such as the collages; but I'd rather see them restricted to their user talk and user space, workshopping the article fixes there. (Note: Several of the 400 or so articles have already been fixed, like the churches I worked on. The task is less massive than it may seem.) Yngvadottir (talk) 03:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC) - Prefer the less stringent option A because I’d like to see self-motivation from DragonofBatley to assist with the clean-up. OK with adding "successfully" to the option. It is disappointing that Dragon has recently made errors on Trafford, all the more so it being a featured article, and it did lead me to consider supporting a ‘tougher’ restriction. Whatever is decided, it would be unreasonable for Dragon to be bombarded with too many queries over a short space of time; in particular, AfD nominations should be staggered. Dragon’s articles are on encyclopedic topics; though it looks a fair few will be merged or redirected because of marginal notability. After a very brief review, it seems the use of erroneous citations is mostly a recent phenomenon (last three months or so). Note the increased pace of Dragon’s article creation from September 2024. Rupples (talk) 12:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's interesting, even though they have been using this account since March 2020 over half of their articles are less than 6 months old, I'd consider only reviewing those less than 6 months old (at least for now) as those older have likely been improved but I guess there's no harm and might well be best. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Oppose further restrictions such as editing articles, workspace and general edits". I have no issues with proposals but I would oppose being restricted from making general edits such as updating infoboxs like I did with Holme Lacy and Dawley Town Hall. I updated them with photos and infoboxs. Yeah I made a couple of questionable edits on Holme Lacy but that article needed some updating since it was slightly written with some questionable wording like it calling Holme Lacy a town which it never has been but flew under editors radars for decades. I also added new collages to spruce up the infoboxs a bit. Especially with some of tw towns in Telford and boroughs of Greater Manchester. Also just because an article in 2008 got FA status doesn't make it protected from edits. I added a collage, hardly a throw away from my edits back on Skegness. Where I challenged old information from an old census database. I have agreed already about the articles and to look at my created ones. I even added a couple of sources to Hollyhurst, Telford and participated in its nomation. So i am taking note but I also have other things going on. So my edits or acknowledging of them maybe a bit later than others. DragonofBatley (talk) 03:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It concerns me greatly that while there is a discussion about your future at ANI you are still making a large number of very questionable edits. I still have half a mind to say this is too much trouble and go for a block, but as you’re ignoring WP:ROPE, I’m not sure that point won’t be too far off. - SchroCat (talk) 03:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @SchroCat at this point. I can see you do not like me. I can see this from both your wording of "sub-standard crap" and "go for a ban". Some choice wording and actions. I've already answered enough but your clearly made up your mind. Nothing else will convince you. Perhaps you should not engage further with me at this point. Cause nothing I say or do seems to provide enough evidence to quell your subtle dislike of me. Prehaps you should just let the other editors handle it. Im not gonna apologise further and try to change your opinion of me. I wont reply further to you at this point. Your wording is coming across as aggressive and threating to me. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Absolute nonsense. I neither like nor dislike you. I have major concerns over your ability to edit and I stand by my judgement of your output. I have further concerns over your decision to create category pages and work on categories while the thread was going on rather than start clearing up the mess you’ve made. All you’ve done is provide more evidence that you lack the ability to edit within the guidelines. Again, this is nothing to do with liking or not liking you as an individual (I’m entirely ambivalent about you) but it is about your output and the additional time and effort you are making others go through to tidy up the mess you’ve made. SchroCat (talk) 18:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay thanks for clarification. I understand your position better now. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Absolute nonsense. I neither like nor dislike you. I have major concerns over your ability to edit and I stand by my judgement of your output. I have further concerns over your decision to create category pages and work on categories while the thread was going on rather than start clearing up the mess you’ve made. All you’ve done is provide more evidence that you lack the ability to edit within the guidelines. Again, this is nothing to do with liking or not liking you as an individual (I’m entirely ambivalent about you) but it is about your output and the additional time and effort you are making others go through to tidy up the mess you’ve made. SchroCat (talk) 18:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @SchroCat at this point. I can see you do not like me. I can see this from both your wording of "sub-standard crap" and "go for a ban". Some choice wording and actions. I've already answered enough but your clearly made up your mind. Nothing else will convince you. Perhaps you should not engage further with me at this point. Cause nothing I say or do seems to provide enough evidence to quell your subtle dislike of me. Prehaps you should just let the other editors handle it. Im not gonna apologise further and try to change your opinion of me. I wont reply further to you at this point. Your wording is coming across as aggressive and threating to me. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It concerns me greatly that while there is a discussion about your future at ANI you are still making a large number of very questionable edits. I still have half a mind to say this is too much trouble and go for a block, but as you’re ignoring WP:ROPE, I’m not sure that point won’t be too far off. - SchroCat (talk) 03:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Discussion
- I think I would be happier if:
- there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400).
- I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "
This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs).
" This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB prove to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't see why we need to restrict userspace editing. This would allow them to create pages that would help show that they can create suitable articles. If there are later problems then it can be added but otherwise poor quality drafts in userspace are generally harmless. Is there evidence of problems here? Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because at the moment there are at least a couple of hundred articles that are sub-standard crap and getting him to focus on cleaning those up is important (rather than leave them for everyone else to tidy up while yet more rubbish is churned out in userspace). A temporary hold on article creation in userspace is no great loss to them and will save a lot of time and effort of other people being wasted. - SchroCat (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 19#Category:Civil parishes in Telford and Wrekin. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). PamD 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1 and Cremastra: Another element for the cleanup project: where an article has been created at a disambiguated title, it should be added to the relevant dab page (or a hatnote made from base title). Dragon hasn't been in the habit of doing so.| – Preceding unsigned comment added by PamD (talk • contribs) 19:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd be happier if everyone would wait to get all of these details worked out, before posting and !voting on new proposals. At this rate, we are chasing our tails, with new proposals coming out as soon as someone objects to something, and then there's an objection to the objection. This is frustrating, and not getting us anywhere. And instead of !voting on how stringent the restrictions need to be, let's try to get consensus on how stringent they need to be.
- Some editors are still saying that we can be fairly loose with how Dragon can edit in mainspace. Personally, I feel like all the evidence I've seen points against that, and I hope that those editors will come around to changing their minds. We have a ton of evidence of edits that cause harm in mainspace, in our reader-facing content, and it's more important, I think, to get that under control, than to hope for the best based on Dragon's enthusiasm for editing. Anyone who disagrees with that, please provide evidence to support your view.
- I also see some arguments that it is, supposedly, unfair to have too many AfDs going at one time. I'm not buying that. We cannot restrict other editors from filing more AfDs. If there's a community consensus to delete, then that should be that. Again, what stays in mainspace, or doesn't, matters more than giving some special consideration that would outweigh consensus.
- I think it's getting clear that we also need to restrict him from editing category space, and that the supervised cleanup needs to be deemed "successful". As for userspace, I agree with restricting against new content creation in userspace (essentially: no userspace drafts, as well as no AfC drafts), but I think other uses of userspace, including user talk, and using the space as a sort of scratchpad for the supervised cleanup, should be permitted. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The user demonstated enough maturity and will to take criticism and improve. Yes, him being neurodivergent makes that harder to accomplish, but he just wants to contribute; stop killing his enthusiasm and help him improve instead. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – WP:CIR and WP:NOTTHERAPY also apply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the intermittent explosive disorder. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance). – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for those very constructive thoughts. I appreciate what you are saying. I know KJP1 very well, and I have high confidence in both him and Cremastra to provide exactly the kind of guidance you recommend. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Est. 2021 He's had quite a lot of both time and guidance already. PamD 10:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: I totally get your good faith, but as a neurodivergent myself I can also assure you I got involved in many problems as well, back in the day, mostly related to the intermittent explosive disorder. We really struggle with that. I even got indef-blocked on it.wiki because I editwarred a biased admin about Crimea, lol (yeah, I would do that again). Yet I learned and improved, and many years later... here I am, a useful contributor of Misplaced Pages projects, with tens of thousands of contributions behind. He can get here as well, just give him time (and guidance). – Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 00:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hear you, about the importance of being inclusive, I really do. And nobody here is trying to kill his enthusiasm: just look at how much discussion is going into crafting a fair decision that takes ample care of our reader-facing content without overly restricting this editor. But we have very many editors who are neurodivergent, and most of them do not cause as many problems. And our readers should not have to make allowances for the personal issues of any editor – WP:CIR and WP:NOTTHERAPY also apply here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd agree the debate is getting a bit lost in the weeds. Are there not basically two views? I think there is agreement that we don't currently want new articles being created, either directly or through AfC, until clear evidence of improvement, gained through engagement in reviewing the 400+ already created, is presented at appeal. Some think that is sufficient, and editing in mainspace should otherwise be permitted, while others favour limiting editing in mainspace to the 400+, and to any related discussions, with others editors involved in clean-up/at AfD/etc. If that is the main point of difference, my suggestion would be that we err on the side of leniency and allow other editing in mainspace. If that proves problematic, we can always come back here. I think there is great benefit in reaching agreement, and enabling Cremastra, myself and others to begin working with DragonofBatley on reviewing the 400+. That will enable them to demonstrate their commitment, give solid evidence as to their ability to learn and to improve their editing, and clean-up the articles for the benefit of readers. KJP1 (talk) 07:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That’s a good summary of how I see things too. If leniency is the path, I think we’ll be back here soon. Recent editing while this thread has been going on shows a lot of new problems being created but no progress on the clean up. I think we’re likely to see as many problems being created as are being sorted, but I’ll bow to the consensus if it goes that way. SchroCat (talk) 07:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @KJP1, I have started to engage with your sandbox you tagged me. I can see some already noted and some already seeing afd afm and redirect. I think you'd be better off tagging me more for articles needing a clean up desperately than ones being afd and confirmed as notable. Ill engage with that sandbox as its on my Watchlist and make necessary changes where needed. Not off a whim since your going back to the start of my time on this site. It'll offload my workload and help with afd and afm to discuss deletion or merging. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too Sensory overload for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. KJP1 (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I, too, would like to move this towards a decision. It seems to me that the sticking point is over differing views about whether DoB should be placed under strict restrictions about editing, in order to control a history of negative effects upon our reader-facing content, or whether to allow DoB a greater amount of leeway in editing, based on his sincere desire to be a good contributor and consideration of his self-described status as neurodivergent. I think we need to go one way or the other on this, and once we do that, we can get to consensus. There's little point in editors repeating what we have already said, and going back and forth over that. I think we should look at the evidence we have, and seek a consensus – not unanimous consent, but WP:CONSENSUS. And nobody here is coming from a position of personal dislike of DoB, or wanting to get rid of DoB. We wouldn't be working so hard on crafting this, if that were the case.
- The editors, including me, who favor strict restrictions have provided a significant amount of evidence, based on edit history and continuing edits, to support that view. In my opinion, editors who oppose those restrictions are acting more out of a feeling, rather than based upon the actual characteristics of mainspace edits. At least, that's my opinion. I've been thinking hard about this, and it seems to me that stricter restrictions would provide DoB with structure while working to correct past mistakes and move forward into good editing status. And I believe structure to be A Good Thing. A lack of structure would actually make things more difficult. Structure (just until such time as the restrictions can be lifted) would be helpful. I really hope that we can agree on that. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would help if some uninvolved editors who are lurking can weigh in here. I am not currently seeing a consensus in this discussion. Just to note that I encouraged KJP1 to move forward with the clean-up project in the meantime. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Let's see this discussion closed with a decision, and then we can talk and agree an approach to review the articles together. KJP1 (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this should just be summarised to allowing me to edit my articles, work to fix, allow me to work on my sandbox and I'll edit within reason. This is getting a bit too Sensory overload for me and others now. Different proposals and stances. DragonofBatley (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Stalking from @Iruka13
- Iruka13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This is a continuation of various discussions happening on the Talk page of the user Iruka13.
I have been feeling harassed and stalked by this user for months now, figuring it was only me. Except, as is evidenced from that user's talk page, it ISN'T only me. As well as my post, @Netherzone has laid out their own harassment. Bear in mind both of our posts come AFTER the user was already banned for a week by @Star Mississippi for incivility to a different person entirely. I don't believe it's only us.
As laid out: one of my photos was tagged by @Iruka13 for deletion around 4 months ago. So fine. Except when asking why, or if the user had read any of the supporting material, I was met by threats to delete work I'd done on the site - plus varying degrees of condescension and bullying. This was largely on the talk page of a now deleted file. Since then, the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons. The reason I say this is stalking is that these images aren't new. If there was a genuine issue, they could have *all* been tagged four months ago. Instead it's a drip-drip-drip. As an example, this file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream of harassment. They never engage civilly, never explain, never offer any reasoning. Again, from the other comments on the user's Talk page, this practice of stalking, bullying, and condescension is seemingly not a one-off. I don't understand how there can be so much drama on a single six-week period of one person's Talk page. Especially when, apparently, the user has already been banned from Commons for similar destructive behaviour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterspeterson (talk • contribs) 03:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just dropping a link to my discussion with Iruka here. My block was less about whether they were technically correct, but their complete unwillingness and inability to edit in a collaborative environment despite a multitude of warnings. I have not followed up with further sanctions as at least one admin disagreed, and I haven't had the on wiki time to moderate this. My POV there and here is that being right isn't sufficient, and Iruka13 has to learn to play well with others if he's going to edit here. I am not sure whether this is a language barrier, but they've been told a number of times that their conduct is problematic. Star Mississippi 03:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm also going to add from what I've seen at the deletion discussions (they've not targeted any of mine; I exclusively deal in copyleft media on Commons) that Iruka13 is frequently and obviously meritless in their nominations. A huge portion of them are very obviously spurious in a way that's comparable to Gish gallop and Brandolini's law, where the amount of energy required to nominate them is immensely lower than the amount required to refute them. I'm genuinely baffled that they've been getting away with this. If they were basically always correct and just being – pardon my French – an insufferable jackass about it, that would be one thing. It's another thing entirely, though, to take a birdshot approach to deletion noms knowing there will be zero repurcussions for whichever spuriously nominated ones survive the discussion because WP:AGF. It's literally just a technique aimed at exhausting the other party, and this bizarre edge case they're creating has made me think that we might actually need some sort of limit on the number of noms possible in a given time period. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you provide the redlink to the "talk page of a deleted file" where you said that the harassment "largely" occurred? Administrators can view the content of a deleted page. :) MolecularPilot 03:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd love to - but I don't know how to find a page that was deleted so long ago. I think it would have been around October 2024? Is there a way I can search this out? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am reproducing the comment from File talk:Kraven-comparison.jpg here:
voorts (talk/contributions) 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)Do you even know what is significant for an article and what is not? Where in authoritative sources is this distinction mentioned? Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right? And let's be simpler, ok? — Ирука 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yes! That's the comment. The "demolish everything you wrote" bit.
- The same user has now been following me around for months. This is exactly the reason other users like @Netherzone feel unsafe. How is this allowed to go on? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That conduct probably would have merited a temporary block in November, but I'm not going to block him based on that now without more evidence that it's part of a pattern. Regarding
the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons
, could you please provide diffs (perhaps to talk page notices that you got) of spurious deletion nominations? voorts (talk/contributions) 03:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- It's the process of one after the other, after the other.
- If there were genuine issues with images, why didn't Iruka tag them all back then? Instead, it's been a drip-drip-drip all the way up until today. This is why I feel harassed. The tagging isn't on new images.
- As an example, this file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
- If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream. Peterspeterson (talk) 03:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- My understanding is that stuff like that lead to Star Missicipi's 1 week block on the 10th of December. Has there been any conduct made you feel uncomfortable since their block expired, beyond nominating your images for deletion (indicating they might be watching which images you make) and them being deleted? :) MolecularPilot 03:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Jinx voorts, beat me too it! Had an edit conflict there (but forgot to add (edit conflict))! :) MolecularPilot 03:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi. Yes. This file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
- If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream.
- Basically, why would they suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months, on a whim? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- My guess would be that the user was looking through your file creations (which is not sanctionable conduct by itself) as they had found you to be, in their opinion, a creator of fair use files that may not meet our guidelines for free-use content and was seeing if there were any others to tag for deletion. If you don't agree with decision of the admin who chose to accept the CSD nom and delete the file, you can submit an appeal to WP:DRV. I'm not entirely sure what you want to be done here? Has there been any re-occurance of subpar communication like the above since the 17th of December? MolecularPilot 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- But that's exactly my point. All those files were already on Misplaced Pages at that previous time. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged in one go.
- Instead, it's tag a file, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another. And repeat.
- But why would anyone keep returning to those old images, from a single user, over and over and over?
- That's why I feel harassed. Especially because - as with the image linked above - I don't believe there's an issue.
- Plus, as pointed out by @TheTechnician27, tahere have been more than 150 image deletion nominations in the last two weeks alone. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Three* but nonetheless correct. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)e
- My guess would be that the user was looking through your file creations (which is not sanctionable conduct by itself) as they had found you to be, in their opinion, a creator of fair use files that may not meet our guidelines for free-use content and was seeing if there were any others to tag for deletion. If you don't agree with decision of the admin who chose to accept the CSD nom and delete the file, you can submit an appeal to WP:DRV. I'm not entirely sure what you want to be done here? Has there been any re-occurance of subpar communication like the above since the 17th of December? MolecularPilot 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That conduct probably would have merited a temporary block in November, but I'm not going to block him based on that now without more evidence that it's part of a pattern. Regarding
- Voorts, you just beat me to it--thanks. But let me add that Peterson doesn't look good either. What Iruka was responding to was this, " There's no point in people drive-bying these pages with that "needs image" tag if, when somebody tries to do something about it, a person *with zero knowledge of the subject matter* doesn't bother to do any reading before rejecting. This whole process is ridiculous." Drmies (talk) 03:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've undeleted that file talk page so non-admin watchers can see the whole exchange in context. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am reproducing the comment from File talk:Kraven-comparison.jpg here:
- I'd love to - but I don't know how to find a page that was deleted so long ago. I think it would have been around October 2024? Is there a way I can search this out? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm reading over a bunch of material, including their talk page. It's clear to me (and I think User:Pppery agrees) that many of their deletion nominations are correct. On the other hand, the way in which they go about things is deemed problematic by plenty of others, and I wonder if User:Bagumba, User:Zanahary, User:TheTechnician27, and User:Kingsif have any additional insight. Drmies (talk) 03:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, that matched my understanding, including them being usually (but by no means always) right on the merits but problematic in how they went about it. I don't really have the energy to spent more time analyzing this than I already have - the other admins watching this page can do what needs to be done and I don't think any further comments from me would be helpful. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Their nomination of File:Diab al-Mashi.png was not correct. The file had a nominally large pixel size, but was very compressed. When I removed their tag for the image to be shrunk, they nominated it for speedy deletion, which makes no sense and is clearly retaliatory. They tagged it as being an entire work uploaded when an excerpt would do, when they knew it was a single compressed frame from a 44 minute film. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say that their tagging of the file for speedy deletion was totally incorrect and made no sense given the size of the original file that was uploaded; the close to Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 12#File:Diab al-Mashi.png and the closing administrator's removal of the
{{Non-free no reduce}}template you added to the file's page and the closing administrator's re-adding of the the{{Non-free reduce}}template originally added by Iruka13. For reference, Voorts, who's an administrator, did !vote delete in the FFD, but for a different reason; the file ultimately was kept, but it was reduced. You disagreed with the tagging of the file for reduction by Iruka13 but, for some reason, don't seem to have an issue with the closing administrator who did exactly the same thing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- I forgot about that discussion. I don't think it makes me involved here, but I'm not planning on taking action at this point anyways. If any evidence of a continuing problem had been presented, as I've asked numerous times, I would have blocked, but the allegations of stalking are based on very thin evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly, you don’t know what I don’t have an issue with. I still think there was no reason for the bot reduction of the file. The relevance of the reduction tagging is in the fact that “this file should be kept and altered” cannot lead to “this file should be deleted” without some major change in opinion, which Iruka never explained—hence my belief that it was just a lashing-out, as I believe is evidenced by the fact that their tag alleging that the file interferes with the market role of the original work and that the still is a complete work from which an excerpt could be taken instead was completely false and never explained—still never explained, actually. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Four of your uploads (the one discussed above, File:True Panther logo.png, File:Teniky inner sandstone wall 1940-41.jpg and File:Déluge au Pays du Baas poster.jpeg) were all uploaded at sizes considered big enough to be tagged by a bot for reduction almost within a day of being uploaded. The file discussed here was tagged by a bot here, but you removed the tag here and added a "Non-free no reduce" template here; perhaps you thought that resolved things. Iruka13 removed the "Non-free free no reduce" template here asking for a reason, and you re-added it here. I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again and led to accusations of edit warring. The file was tagged for speedy deletion per WP:NFCC#2 and WP:NFCC#3b, each of which are reasons related to WP:NFCC. You then started the discussion about the file, first on its talk page and then at FFD, and Iruka did respond on both pages. None of the above seems to seems (at least to me) to clearly indicate any type of retaliaton against you by Iruka13; rather, it seems like something not too uncommon when it comes to disagreements over non-free files, and it also seems to have been resolved as such. If you can demonstrate that Iruka13 did similar things with respect to your other file uploads or uploads by others, then that might indicate a pattern of some kind; their interaction with you, however, seems to have been civil and seems to have ended with the FFD. Finally, the "Criterion 3b, because an entire work is being used when a portion or a reduced-size copy would suffice" used in the
{{di-fails NFCC}}template is boilerplate text added when a template's|3b=parameter is set as|3b=yes; so, that's the default option when using that template. Personally, I might've just skipped that template and gone to FFD instead, but different strokes for different folks, and, once again, I don't see tagging the file for speedy deletion as being a retaliatory act. Iruka13 can't delete files and any files they tag for speedy deletion are going to be ultimately reviewed by an administrator, and it's possible that the file would've ended up at FFD based on that review. If you've got issues with the bot tagging the file for reduction, the bot operator is probably the best person to express them to. Similarly, if you feel the FFD close was incorrect, you can follow WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:25, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- > I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again
- And therein lies the point because you shouldn’t have to guess. Iruka could actually engage with editors on a polite, peer-to-peer, basis.
- Instead, there is no engagement. It’s tag, move on; tag, move on - dozens of times a day, every day. And should anyone dare engage, they get wikilawyered, or threats such as:
- > Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
- All from a user who, by their own admission, has multiple bans for harassment. Which is, at least from my standing, why I and others feel bullied and harassed. After all it is someone who’ll openly tell you that’s how they behave, knowing full well they get welcomed back to do it again. Peterspeterson (talk) 20:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- You cannot nominate a file for deletion because you think your tag is going to be removed. That is not a deletion rationale. I don’t care about establishing a pattern of behavior for this user—I’m just saying that they tagged a file for deletion because they got annoyed that their NFR tag got reverted, and that is a problem. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- You can, however, nominate or tag a non-free file for deletion if you feel it fails to meet
allone of the ten non-free content use criteria. Iruka13 listed two criteria that they felt the non-free use failed; you disagreed with their assessment and the file ended up being discussed at FFD. That's a fairly common occurrence when it comes to disagreements over non-free use, and doesn't necessarily mean anyone was annoyed or trying to retaliate. The fact that the non-free file was kept but also reduced, also doesn't mean they were totally incorrect in their assessment, at least with respect to NFCC#3b. You posted above that Idon't know what you have an issue with
, yet you're quick to assume that Iruka13's tagging of the file just had to be done to get back at you. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC); post edited. -- 03:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)- There is an unexplained gap between putting a file in a queue to be altered and nominating it for deletion for failing two criteria (neither of which it failed—not a single other editor supported those arguments). My judgment is that this was done out of spite. That editor should feel free to correct me and explain himself. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 15:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- You can, however, nominate or tag a non-free file for deletion if you feel it fails to meet
- Four of your uploads (the one discussed above, File:True Panther logo.png, File:Teniky inner sandstone wall 1940-41.jpg and File:Déluge au Pays du Baas poster.jpeg) were all uploaded at sizes considered big enough to be tagged by a bot for reduction almost within a day of being uploaded. The file discussed here was tagged by a bot here, but you removed the tag here and added a "Non-free no reduce" template here; perhaps you thought that resolved things. Iruka13 removed the "Non-free free no reduce" template here asking for a reason, and you re-added it here. I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again and led to accusations of edit warring. The file was tagged for speedy deletion per WP:NFCC#2 and WP:NFCC#3b, each of which are reasons related to WP:NFCC. You then started the discussion about the file, first on its talk page and then at FFD, and Iruka did respond on both pages. None of the above seems to seems (at least to me) to clearly indicate any type of retaliaton against you by Iruka13; rather, it seems like something not too uncommon when it comes to disagreements over non-free files, and it also seems to have been resolved as such. If you can demonstrate that Iruka13 did similar things with respect to your other file uploads or uploads by others, then that might indicate a pattern of some kind; their interaction with you, however, seems to have been civil and seems to have ended with the FFD. Finally, the "Criterion 3b, because an entire work is being used when a portion or a reduced-size copy would suffice" used in the
- I wouldn't say that their tagging of the file for speedy deletion was totally incorrect and made no sense given the size of the original file that was uploaded; the close to Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 12#File:Diab al-Mashi.png and the closing administrator's removal of the
- @Peterspeterson & @TheTechnician27: If I am going to take action, I need to see a post-block pattern of conduct. Please provide some form of evidence, such as diffs. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- My most recent issues relate to the file I linked above - here. This was tagged last week and deleted today.
- Again, if the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's the fifth or sixth(?) that's been tagged and deleted since that first one. Each a week or three apart.
- Of course I feel stalked. None of these images are new. They could've all been tagged at the time.
- Instead, it's drip-drip-drip.
- On that one linked above, why would Iruka suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months on a whim? Unless it's because they're stalking. It's the same behaviour described by @Netherzone Peterspeterson (talk) 04:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- The instructions at the top of this page state:
Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
(emphasis in original). I am not going to block someone without evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- There's no way I could possibly fulfil what you ask.
- The point is that instead of tagging multiple files for deletion in one go, the same user has tagged image files of mine one after the other. Tag for deletion, wait 2-3 weeks, tag, wait 2-3 weeks, tag.
- I can't see the files *because they've been deleted*. What am I supposed to link you to?
- Even if all the deletions were correct - and I'm not convinced that's true - how is this a legitimate way to act?
- The harassment is that all these files were live when the first tag was made. Instead of highlighting any issues at the time, Iruka has been following me around the site for months. I'm not the only person saying this. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking at your talk page history, you received two deletion notifications on 12 November 2024 (one for an image that you uploaded that same date, and one for an image that you uploaded a few weeks prior), one on 22 November 2024 for the image you uploaded 12 November, one on 3 December 2024 for an image you uploaded in October, and one on 6 January for an image you uploaded in October.The 22 November nomination makes sense in context because it was originally nominated for lacking an adequate license per F4 on 12 November, which was remedied, and then Iruka came back ten days later to nominate it for lacking contextual significance. That leaves the nominations on 3 December and 6 January. Two nominations one month apart is not adequate evidence of stalking, in my opinion. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I also note your responses to two of those notifications (both for files that were deleted):
- voorts (talk/contributions) 04:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK @Voorts & @TheTechnician27- I think I have been able to find some sort of timeline to illustrate what I'm saying.
- On 12 Nov, File:Kraven-comparison.jpg was nominated for deletion. I'd uploaded in the days before, so OK. Fair enough. I'm still not convinced by the merits of this deletion in regards to the point of the page and the image - but OK.
- On 22 Nov, File:AvXduo.jpeg was nominated.
- On 3 Dec File:Daredevilcomparison.jpeg was nominated.
- On 6 Jan File:Galleryvprem.jpeg was nominated. This is the most dubious of all.
- These four images were all there at the time of the first nomination. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.
- Instead, it's four over two months - which comes directly after the message:
- > Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
- Which is exactly what's happening. Spaced out, spurious nominations.
- Why would a user suddenly return to look at a different user's work, weeks apart, unless they're stalking?
- And, if it was only me, then maybe I'd put it down to paranoia. Except the user's Talk page has at least one other user saying a very similar thing.
- I can't see the comments you've linked to btw - but believe it or not, when someone says
- > Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
- and then starts doing it, it does tend to lead to incivility. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just to add, by the user's own admission in 2023, they have
- > 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects
- Link: User talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100
- That's in *their own words*. Peterspeterson (talk) 05:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.
There's no rule that requires an editor to go through another editor's contributions and decide whether to nominate them for deletion all at once. There are also innocent explanations, such as not wanting to overwhelm someone with a dozen nominations all at once or not having the time.Regarding Netherzone's claim of stalking, Iruka's "laboratory" appears to be a place where they keep notes on files they intend to renominate for deletion at a later date.I am also well aware of the history of Iruka's blocks, but blocks can't be used to punish people for sins of the past. I see no evidence of stalking here and I won't be taking action. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- OK, so when another old file gets tagged with little justification in 2-3 weeks, can I message you again? What about 2-3 weeks after that?
- I don't even know how I'm supposed to appeal / counteract the tag-tag-tag behaviour. I can't see any justification for the deletion of today's file and it's not as if Iruka ever gives any reason. Peterspeterson (talk) 05:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Looking at your talk page history, you received two deletion notifications on 12 November 2024 (one for an image that you uploaded that same date, and one for an image that you uploaded a few weeks prior), one on 22 November 2024 for the image you uploaded 12 November, one on 3 December 2024 for an image you uploaded in October, and one on 6 January for an image you uploaded in October.The 22 November nomination makes sense in context because it was originally nominated for lacking an adequate license per F4 on 12 November, which was remedied, and then Iruka came back ten days later to nominate it for lacking contextual significance. That leaves the nominations on 3 December and 6 January. Two nominations one month apart is not adequate evidence of stalking, in my opinion. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Iruka has provided reasons consistent with policies, guidelines, and practice. For example, File:Galleryvprem.jpeg was tagged with {{di-fails NFCC|date=6 January 2025|1=yes|8=yes}}. I've reviewed the fair use rationale that you provided and I believe that the file was properly deleted. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- The instructions at the top of this page state:
- Does 170 image deletion noms since Christmas count as "a pattern of conduct"? Because I see this as effectively a Gish gallop where it's functionally impossible for most editors to meaningfully evaluate the merits of each one. Since non-free media has to meet a substantially higher standard for 'Keep' than for 'Delete', this means that 'Keep' voters need to take substantially more time per nom than the 'Delete' ones, and creating such a glut of noms severely and unfairly tips the balance in favor of a 'Delete' vote on average. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please provide diffs. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Appreciate the ask, because this made me realize that I was incorrect about the original figure. It's actually 210 since Christmas, or a bit over 10 per day. Edit history and then Ctrl+F "up for deletion" and "tagging for deletion". 170 noms; 40 CSDs. I want to clarify I've been absent from this since the original block, but this has to be absurd to keep up with for anyone at the discussions trying to argue to in good faith to preserve these images. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- How many were declined by patrolling admins? How many were no permission tags where permissions were then added? An admin cannot block someone without evidence and I'm not going to dig through Iruka's contributions to look for it. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ultimately I haven't been keeping up with the situation on a per-nom basis, and by nature of them consistently putting up over 1000 edits a month, I'm not going to be going through them except for macro-scale patterns. I was brought here for my perspective, and this is it: that Iruka is abusing the system by making an unprecedented amount of noms with little regard for merit (the noms I witnessed were immediately pre-block, thus as you said not qualifying here for post-block behavior) in order to make dubious noms on average more successful solely because they can't have as much individual time dedicated to them. It's a very obvious tactic, and I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. I don't intend to go beyond what I was brought here to do for right now. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
It's a very obvious tactic, I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it.
Please do comment on other editors' motives without evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- Between more than one experienced editor accusing Iruka of stalking them, their "let someone else sort it out" attitude toward obvious, consequential mistakes they make, their argumentative behavior, their gross power-tripping attitude ("Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right?" (also note the wikilawyering going on in that comment)), their ridiculous noms (including arguments like "just use a 3D model bro" or "a free alternative can reasonably exist because you can just get a basketball backboard and break it for an image bro" or "just offer to pay them money to put it under a free license it bro"; all pre-block, so I'm not bothering to dig it up), the absurd frequency of noms they create, and their indefinite block on Commons, all I'll say is that I assume good faith until an editor flushes that down the toilet. With that, I'm done here unless someone has a specific question for me. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- "I have 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects."
- Kinda sounds like maybe this user does harass people, considering that's what they wrote *on their own page*.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100 Peterspeterson (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Between more than one experienced editor accusing Iruka of stalking them, their "let someone else sort it out" attitude toward obvious, consequential mistakes they make, their argumentative behavior, their gross power-tripping attitude ("Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right?" (also note the wikilawyering going on in that comment)), their ridiculous noms (including arguments like "just use a 3D model bro" or "a free alternative can reasonably exist because you can just get a basketball backboard and break it for an image bro" or "just offer to pay them money to put it under a free license it bro"; all pre-block, so I'm not bothering to dig it up), the absurd frequency of noms they create, and their indefinite block on Commons, all I'll say is that I assume good faith until an editor flushes that down the toilet. With that, I'm done here unless someone has a specific question for me. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ultimately I haven't been keeping up with the situation on a per-nom basis, and by nature of them consistently putting up over 1000 edits a month, I'm not going to be going through them except for macro-scale patterns. I was brought here for my perspective, and this is it: that Iruka is abusing the system by making an unprecedented amount of noms with little regard for merit (the noms I witnessed were immediately pre-block, thus as you said not qualifying here for post-block behavior) in order to make dubious noms on average more successful solely because they can't have as much individual time dedicated to them. It's a very obvious tactic, and I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. I don't intend to go beyond what I was brought here to do for right now. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- How many were declined by patrolling admins? How many were no permission tags where permissions were then added? An admin cannot block someone without evidence and I'm not going to dig through Iruka's contributions to look for it. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Appreciate the ask, because this made me realize that I was incorrect about the original figure. It's actually 210 since Christmas, or a bit over 10 per day. Edit history and then Ctrl+F "up for deletion" and "tagging for deletion". 170 noms; 40 CSDs. I want to clarify I've been absent from this since the original block, but this has to be absurd to keep up with for anyone at the discussions trying to argue to in good faith to preserve these images. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please provide diffs. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- The stuff in this thread is basically de rigueur for this user: my past experiences with Iruka13 and file deletion have consisted of extremely bizarre wikilawyering, to the point where I felt like it bordered on deliberate trolling. I do not understand why this editor is permitted to waste so much of people's time with obviously vexatious nominations. jp×g🗯️ 06:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think the key element here is if the nominations were "obviously vexatious", I mean the ones that sparked this ANI were all accepted by the deleting admin, and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama. I wonder if there's a tool on toolforge or smth to calculate accepted vs denied CSDs/FfD noms which may paint a better picture, but from a spot check I just did of both CSD and FfD this are mostly either accepted by the deleting admin or the raised issues are resolved. MolecularPilot 07:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- To my understanding this ANI is mainly about a) the volume of CSDs and FfDs and b) the user's laboratory. I don't think anyone is arguing that the nominations were actually meritless or vexatious, and those who said they were "wrong" may want to take that up with the deleting admin or WP:DRV because it's not like this user is mass-tagging and it's being declined... most of the time issues are resolved or the admin agrees and speedily deletes/the FfD closes as delete. MolecularPilot 07:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- > and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama
- You’ve guessed that this is their motivation - and your guess is equally as valid as my assertion that this is stalking.
- In fact, much of various admins’ attempts at justification throughout this thread is guesswork - all of which has had to occur because Iruka does not engage with other users on a polite peer-to-peer basis. There is no “paper trail” to say “this is what they actually meant”. As has been evidenced and pointed out by multiple editors. Peterspeterson (talk) 11:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you continue to assert this is stalking with no evidence, I will block you for personal attacks. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ok, I will simply ask you how do you know tags
- > were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama
- Have you guessed? Or has Iruka stated this anywhere? Peterspeterson (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- All of the files that he tagged that you uploaded were deleted. There is no rule that prohibits someone from nominating files for deletion spaced apart. At this point, it just feels like you're seeking revenge for that. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're guessing my intention the same way you're guessing Iruka's.
- "Revenge" isn't my intention at all. Revenge for what? If the files were legitimately deleted, then fair enough. It doesn't matter to me.
- However, the spacing of the reports felt - and feel - like harassment. (I'm being clear that it *felt* like harassment because I don't want to be banned for what you assert are personal attacks).
- Even with that *feeling*, I would have moved on were it not for the fact that other people were reporting very similar things on the user's Talk page. And then, with a small amount of checking, it seems that Iruka has admitted to harassing other users at various points in the past. And, from what others have said, Iruka has already been banned on multiple occasions, from multiple places, for precisely that. (I don't actually know if this is true).
- So my *feeling* of being harassed was in fact legitimised by others feeling the same - and apparent past behaviour. Hence this.
- On the files being deleted, for that specific one here, it was the first time I'd experienced this sort of tagging. I didn't really know what to do with it.
- The info page said to leave an explanation on the Talk page - which I tried to do.
- I was then told:
- > I can demolish everything you wrote
- along with what I now know is 'wikilawyering'. You can see how I reacted:
- > Who goes onto a page and says "I can demolish everything you wrote" and then cries about bad faith?!
- Because from the info page, I assumed that when an admin came to look at that file to decide upon deletion, they would see that remark and do something with it. I didn't even know this ANI process existed then.
- Except nothing was done. The admin either read Iruka's "demolish" response and decided it was acceptable, or didn't read it.
- And, ever since then, Iruka has continued to target me at regular intervals, leaving me unsure what - if anything - to do.
- You can guess that the targeting is to "prevent looks of batch deleting" - but it's still a guess. Iruka could've engaged civilly, in the same way they could with any other user who has reported a problem.
- In the same way they could be on this thread right now explaining what's actually going on. If they did that, neither you or I would have to guess. Peterspeterson (talk) 14:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- All of the files that he tagged that you uploaded were deleted. There is no rule that prohibits someone from nominating files for deletion spaced apart. At this point, it just feels like you're seeking revenge for that. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you continue to assert this is stalking with no evidence, I will block you for personal attacks. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think the key element here is if the nominations were "obviously vexatious", I mean the ones that sparked this ANI were all accepted by the deleting admin, and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama. I wonder if there's a tool on toolforge or smth to calculate accepted vs denied CSDs/FfD noms which may paint a better picture, but from a spot check I just did of both CSD and FfD this are mostly either accepted by the deleting admin or the raised issues are resolved. MolecularPilot 07:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Please forgive the length of this. This discussion has gone a bit sideways, the issue is not whether Iruka13 is “correct” or not in their file tagging and file deletions, the problem is that their behavior is disturbing and upsetting a number of experienced, good-faith editors, myself included.
It is precisely the same conduct that got them blocked on Commons, Russian WP and Ukranian WP. Stalking may not be the right term for the behavior but I do believe there is deliberate harassment conducted by the editor. Misplaced Pages itself defines harassment as Harassment is a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually, the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing.
That is clearly the effect their behavior has had with multiple ediors.
Here is a synopsis of my interactions with this user and why I feel I have been harassed and made to feel upset and frightened to the point that I’ve virtually stopped editing.
1. I uploaded File:Zuni wolf fetish with medicine bundle and heartline, carved by Stuart Lasiyoo.jpg. After uploading I realized the size was too large for fair-use, and made a note of my error on the file talk page (I was unable to reduce it because I did not have access to Photoshop at the time). BTW, Zuni fetishes are ceremonial objects made by the Zuni tribe of Native Americans that are also sold as small sculptures; they have nothing to do with the sexualized notion of "fetish".
2. I received message about the file on my user talk. Diff: to which I responded and answered on the file talk page.
3. The discussion then resumed at the File talk page about the deletion nomination. Diff: use rationale where I explained my rationale for fair use. The editor then responded with: judging by the response you didn't look at them; right?
, which I thought was rather rude to assume I don't read messages (which explains my response on my user talk page).
4. They then went on the argue with me in a mocking tone: But it is so. wow, your contribution is bigger than mine, it's not for me to tell you about it
and wow_2, who am I telling this to?
. I told them that their response did not seem very nice. They responded: What I was trying to say is that what I'm saying, you already know. You know better than me. / uploading this image boggles my mind.
I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi warned the editor on their talk page.
5. After I wrote a more detailed rationale why the file was suitable as fair-use, they refused to answer my own simple question responding instead with: I can answer all the questions posed in this message. And I will, if it be necessary. But first, please answer the question - and, for the sake of the experiment, let's assume that all the images in that category are really unsuitable...
and asked me an "experimental question" whether I could create from scratch a "completely free image", a proposal that would involve spending a large amount of money. Diff: As a volunteer editor, that seemed utterly absurd, and it became clear to me they were just yanking my chain.
6. I then noticed they were treating others in similar ways, for example asking editors to buy a glass basketball backboard shield specifically to then smash it with a rock after installing a camera specifically to create a fair use image. Diffs: (uploaded by Left guide) ]. This clearly seemed they were wikilawyering and arguing for the sake of argument with the intent to annoy and intimidate others. I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi issued a short block.
7. I then noticed on their user page a link to their “Laboratory”, which creeped me out because the strange “experimental questions” seemed like mind-games. I noticed that not only was there an entry for the Zuni fetishes file, but that some of it was actually written in “invisible ink” using the < ! -- template, and included a a number of my file uploads. Diff from January 2: and . I know that being creepy is not a blockable offense but it scared the daylights me, because I have been Wiki-stalked not only online, but in real life.
8. I directly asked them to STOP following me around. Instead they created a user sub-page, replacing all the images with 19th century inaccurate illustrations, romanticized representations of the art of Zuni tribe Native Americans by none other than an ethnographer who looted artifacts from the Zuni people. Diff: I again demanded that they STOP and I quit editing. I refuse to be someone's "experimental laboratory" subject, that is disturbingly creepy.
9. If this is considered “normal” behavior by administrators, well, then after 13 years of editing, I’m out of here. I can not and I will not have a hobby as a volunteer editor in a place where I feel unsafe and harassed, especially from a single-purpose editor with a long history of such behavior – no matter if their tagging or deletions are “correct.” Netherzone (talk) 20:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not going to respond point by point here, but I don't think the uncivil interactions with you are "normal" behavior. The issue is that Iruka was already blocked for that conduct and I still don't see how the pages Iruka created in his userspace – which did not mention you by name and which he did not notify you of – are harassment. If Iruka starts being uncivil again or starts harassing people, I'll be the first to indef him. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- The issue seems to be that the behavior Netherzone mentions has been experience by multiple other users. This appears to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior spread out over quite some time. And quite honestly, the "laboratory" really does strike me as creepy behavior intended to needle other editors. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- The only two editors I have seen complain about stalking are Netherzone and Peterspeterson. I've asked multiple times for evidence that Iruka's file deletion nominations are largely incorrect, but the only evidence provided thus far have been files that other admins have seen fit to delete and contested FFD discussions. In my view, this complaint seems largely based on vibes and conduct preceding the block. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- The issue seems to be that the behavior Netherzone mentions has been experience by multiple other users. This appears to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior spread out over quite some time. And quite honestly, the "laboratory" really does strike me as creepy behavior intended to needle other editors. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Having been pinged to this, my experience and another thread I saw suggests to me that the user really wants to delete things - not just that they are being gnomish in the area of deletion for the benefit of Misplaced Pages, no, that they actively want to delete stuff and be uncivil to those who do not share this philosophy. In this way, they seem to mass search for anything that could have a valid reason to delete, even if another another option is better or, as in what drew my attention, even if they have to make up some reason why a file meets deletion rationale when it doesn’t. That is another issue: while their deletion noms may be generally correct because they are seeking out files with issues, their tagging of files that only need reduction to be deleted, their tagging of Commons-eligible files, and their bizarre suggestion to purchase an iage license as proof of owenership, strike me as someone who does not understand Misplaced Pages or Commons policy very well and does not care if understanding will get in the way of their tagging g. ULtimately, the poor tags that may not get chance to be corrected, and rejectiong collaboratoon, negate any positive of being the first person to tag some bad files and thus make the user’s contributions in deletion a net negative for WP. I am struggling just to type this on mobile so can’t or provide diffs atm. Kingsif (talk) 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
I was pinged above by Drmies. I'm not going to read this whole case. I'll briefly say that my main interaction with Iruka13 was at Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 November 28 § File:Backboard shattering.jpeg. I'm not an FFD regular, but I get the sense that these arguments they used were not mainstream:
- Telling the uploader to buy the non-free image themselves and donating it for free.
- Using AI/3D editors as free replacements.
Those did not gain consensus at that FFD. If they are continuing these arguments, and have not gained community support, it would be disruptive and a WP:TBAN might be reasonable. WP:AGF is a guideline, so its hard to gauge what part of their communication can be attributed to English not being their primary language and perhaps lacking the gentleness and politeness that are common in some English-speaking cultures, versus what's an actual harassing, wikilawyering tone. For example, they said: And of course we can't buy the rights to the photo. We have to steal it.
Later, they claimed: I decided here, in case the discussion is closed by , to buy the rights to the photo.
But they should also become aware of others' reactions as well, and take measures to adjust.—Bagumba (talk) 12:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The shattered backboard file was discussed and the consensus was to keep it; so, FFD seems to have worked as it's intended to work. For reference, two others !voted to delete the file in that FFD; so, that means at least two others agreed with Iruka13's assessment. Iruka13 might have a hard time expressing themselves in English if that's not their first language, and some of their arguments might be perplexing: personally, I wouldn't try the "buy the rights and donate the image" line of argument; however, the question here with respect tagging/nominateing files for deletion is (at least in my opinion) not whether Iruka13 is being a nuisance, but rather whether they're wrong so much more than they're right to the point that being that being wrong is causing things to seriously breakdown. The behavioral and poor communication issues and probably need to be addressed, but those things aren't limited to files; if those things are the real problem, then a t-ban/restriction related to files makes little sense to me. I don't see their assessment of files with respect to relevant policies as being perfect, but I also don't see it as being as bad as some posting above are claiming. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles
Citation bot keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on User talk:Citation bot#Incorrect reference dates, however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.
Diffs:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legend of 14 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. EF 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. EF 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. EF 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- You can add this to the page in question – {{bots|deny=Citation bot}} – or you can add this to a specific citation – {{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}} – to keep the bot away. See -- Stopping the bot from editing. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that Citation bot did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on Ludlow Massacre, see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a diff. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is not a user script, but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:
- "All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."
- -WP:Bot policy Legend of 14 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the person who is using the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Most of these seem to have been invoked by Abductive, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493
- Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.
- These edits were suggested by the following user:
- Legend of 14 (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
- Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)
- Suggested by user:
- Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates Legend of 14 (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is still about Citation bot. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by User:Spinixster. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Found another bad date in another article:
You have given the operators less than one day to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? Legend of 14 (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can see here the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- "All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."
- -WP:Bot policy
- WP:Citing sources is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you quote the part of WP:RS which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. this diff? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about your use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOTACC specifically says
The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account. Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot
. EF 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)- Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- 5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.
I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to WP:ASPERSIONS to me... - The Bushranger One ping only 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- 5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.
- As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) moved down from the middle of the above comment (original diff). – 2804:F1...CF:5599 (::/32) (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right?? Isaidnoway (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) moved down from the middle of the above comment (original diff). – 2804:F1...CF:5599 (::/32) (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- 5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unsupervised bot and script use has damaged thousands of articles. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix 2022 deaths in the United States (July–December).... XOR'easter (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're into the second batch of ReferenceExpander edits to check and clean up. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. XOR'easter (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to Whoop whoop pull up two weeks ago (read here) about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed me to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have continued to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at User talk:Whoop whoop pull up § Checking IABot runs. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. Both should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here neither. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BOTP is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.
- Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- WP:BOTACC says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
- BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of WP:ROLE. Now, ROLE does have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple managers", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're developed and maintained by a team of people (rather than ones that can be used by multiple people).
- Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to 50,000 pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the only people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they were, in fact, approved implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
- WP:BOTCOMM seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
- WP:BOTREQUIRE says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
- WP:BOTCONFIG provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
- Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- WP:BOTMULTIOP says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved despite the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).
- Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
- Whoop whoop pull up 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.
- "Both should take reponsibility"
- -Phil Bridger at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 Legend of 14 (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.
- Policy is very clear, don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. XOR'easter (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Or, as the same page quoted above puts it:
Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked.
XOR'easter (talk) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Citation bot has not been
approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking
. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at User:Citation bot § Bot approval. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. Folly Mox (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- ☝🏽It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against Abductive or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion somewhere specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping AManWithNoPlan, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. Folly Mox (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots and checking the results. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, Folly Mox (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots and checking the results. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- ☝🏽It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against Abductive or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion somewhere specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping AManWithNoPlan, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. Folly Mox (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"
Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. CNC (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 Folly Mox (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Is there anything left here to discuss? Liz 03:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
A bizare editing war on the trotskyist organization list
NO ACTION NEEDED Permanent debate among permanent revolutionaries. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:58, 18 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In the last 24 hours some strage editing war seem to have taking place on the following page trying to remove or change it's content:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/List_of_Trotskyist_organizations_by_country DiGrande (talk) 19:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looks like a content dispute. As ever, it should be addressed by reliable sources (which usually don't include social media sites) and talk page discussion. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- These edit wars occur fairly regularly on articles related to these groups as there is a lot of in-fighting and division among members, former members and interested parties especially regarding the lineage of Trotskyist and communist organizations. If you are concerned and it continues, you can open a report at WP:ANEW and please notify the involved editors when you open complaints like this. Liz 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- Communist organisations taking chunks out of one another? Well, I never — Czello 22:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, there is nothing more insulting than being incorrectly called a Trotskyist. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, this oddity appears to likely be Stalinist splinters trolling each other by adding their rivals to the list of Trotskyist groups. signed, Rosguill 01:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, there is nothing more insulting than being incorrectly called a Trotskyist. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Communist organisations taking chunks out of one another? Well, I never — Czello 22:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- These edit wars occur fairly regularly on articles related to these groups as there is a lot of in-fighting and division among members, former members and interested parties especially regarding the lineage of Trotskyist and communist organizations. If you are concerned and it continues, you can open a report at WP:ANEW and please notify the involved editors when you open complaints like this. Liz 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know if this is really bizarre -- I'd say "Trotskyist organizations getting into petty internecine conflict" is about as predictable as, oh, someone already made this exact same comment. jp×g🗯️ 06:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- The disputes between The People's Front of Judea, The Judean People's Popular Front, The Campaign for a Free Galilee, and The Popular Front of Judea? Narky Blert (talk) 08:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
User:PEPSI697 bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools
- PEPSI697 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.
My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) a message for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person made a discussion on the talk page about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me this message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I didn't understand what exactly was the issue, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I wish him merry Christmas, he wishes me, everything is fine.
Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is hounding my edits. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor (Augmented Seventh): 1, 2, 3. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.
I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi replaced my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential talk page guideline violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to seek clarification as to why they did this on their talk page. In their response to me, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me this message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see this edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me this message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. This edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.
I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - here they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when he has gotten the same message twice for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of reverting edits without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. jolielover♥talk 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and assume good faith, you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. jolielover♥talk 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. Here, for example, they say:
Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please.
. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. C F A 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. (1, 2, 3, 4 5, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). jolielover♥talk 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing
no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism
is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)- I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. Simonm223 (talk) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- Seeing
- In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
- About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments demanding that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. jolielover♥talk 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. C F A 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
- @Jolielover: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are obvious vandalism.
- Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway,
You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents
- right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you will stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you might stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. jolielover♥talk 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) @PEPSI697: A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page here, here and here. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at WP:YOUNG and WP:REALWORLD because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on your user talk page that you get
stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it
when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been previously been warned about. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if yousometimes don't understand what some words mean
, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC) - Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway,
- @CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
- About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future
- I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day.
- 1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content.
- 2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one.
- 3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly?
- Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- 1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool.
- 2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection.
- 3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. jolielover♥talk 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I accept your apology. jolielover♥talk 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Response and apology from PEPSI697
The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the WP:PRIMER or looking at the task center? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.
- Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. NewBorders (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is guidance on how to use the
{{Talk header}}found on its documentation page at Template:Talk header#Should this be added to every talk page? and also at WP:TALKLEAD. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in WP:CONTRIBUTE and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like WP:GUILD, WP:DEORPHAN, WP:HELPWP, WP:URA, WP:RANPP for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at WP:RAILWAY or WP:STATIONS. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)- Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with Bell railway station, Melbourne, but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get Preston railway station, Melbourne article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is guidance on how to use the
- Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Perhaps an administrator could close this discussion and all its related sub-discussions now that the OP and PEPSI697 seem to have amicably resolved their issue. Maybe all that's needed here is a firm warning to PEPSI697 to try to be careful in the future, and perhaps some encouragement to try not to over use these tools if doing so risks placing them in high-stress situations where they might lose their cool, with a reminder that the community might be less understanding the next time around if they end up back at ANI for doing something similar. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Good idea there. I agree that me, Jolielover and the others involved resolved this issue. I absolutely agree with this idea to give a firm warning on my talk page. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 08:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you
absolutely agree with
isn't really all that relevant to what the community ultimately decides to do, and continuing to post here only runs the risk of you somehow making your situation worse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok, sorry. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some friendly advice: you might want to stop posting here except to respond to a direct question. What you
Non-neutral paid editor
@EMsmile is heavily editing Solar_radiation_modification in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. Andrewjlockley (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:
- Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
- Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
- - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
- Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.
- An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably WP:NOTHERE. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. Simonm223 (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- done Andrewjlockley (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly WP:GF reasons for them.
- By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as "has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world" and "The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality" + "The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"? Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate WP:NOTNEWS and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a very strong statement cited to...an obscure book, seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
- Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally WP:RECENT, and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. If that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, then it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
- Do you really think phrases like "China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments." are consistent with WP:NPOV? Really? Maybe cutting all of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
- That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently an internal publication of the Central Bank of Hungary. It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.
- In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably WP:NOTHERE" seems downright Kafkaesque. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like Climate change, you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't bad by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply not good enough or relevant enough for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.
- Given this context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not obligated to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @EMsmile's paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @Andrewjlockley provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/
- My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. TERSEYES (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Adding: Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 TERSEYES (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- An editor with a declared COI should never be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the
strongly discouraged
wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --Aquillion (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Aquillion So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this (Redacted)?
- Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that if Earth System Governance is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering is not even seen anywhere on their front page - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as Research Framework. The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)
- that would be wrong. See WP:SELFCITE; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we want editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS Having a perspective on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. WP:PAID editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then WP:COI needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.
- It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's not the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change
strongly discouraged
toprohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism)
. I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though. - Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be manually saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that
editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests
- but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I need to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to this case, rather than a general statement. - Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's not the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change
- If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this
Uh, guys? Does WP:OUTING mean nothing to you? - The Bushranger One ping only 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)- @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the principles of privacy still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. TiggerJay (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Could we get an edit to WP:OUTTING for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
WP:BOOMERANG back to Andrewjlockley
- I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. However, that does not change the fact she has been one of a literal handful of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in WikiProject: Climate change over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.
- With that in mind, I would like to say I have great difficulty assuming WP:GF here - not when the OP editor (Redacted), which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective and when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.
- I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report, the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of Chapter 16 of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.
- P.S. This is really not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- See WP:BOOMERANG... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.
- All of this is pertinent. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that EMSmile has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that Andrewjlockley is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. WP:OUTING concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.
- The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If InformationToKnowledge is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be they both should be though.
- Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. TiggerJay (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please reread WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS. The suggestion that being a published academic on a subject constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of WP:EXTERNALREL, which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- as per (Redacted) is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.
- Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to WP:SELFCITE. Simonm223 (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.
- If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for WP:COI that arises as a result.
- With regards to SRM has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the version of 15 May 2024). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
- AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for more SRM research in their day job (Redacted). Also, User:Thisredrock explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be against doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
- I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by User:Thisredrock on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
- Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). EMsmile (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery orDARVO, but I'll respond anyway.
- I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.
- Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way Andrewjlockley (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wish to clarify the relationship between the Earth System Governance project (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the campaign for a 'Non-use Agreement' (NUA) on solar radiation modification (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.
- Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was the founder of ESG and its first chair, for ten years, and is the editor in chief of its journall. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is a member of ESG's 11-member leadership board , one of five authors of its current implementation plan , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of ESG's series of short books. By quick count, of the other 14 authors on the NUA's founding paper, one other is on the governing board, at least eight are lead faculty, at least two are senior research fellows, and one is among the journal's six editors.
- In the other direction, of ESG's 11-member governing board, eight have signed the NUA sign-on statement.
- The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. TERSEYES (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TERSEYES, would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? TiggerJay (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.
- For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
- Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an oversight on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? jp×g🗯️ 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- ... gonna ask in talk page of WP:OUTTING if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- The Bushranger, I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. Liz 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: the diff of them placing it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is here - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - The Bushranger One ping only 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named User:Johnjacobjingleheimer, then it constitutes WP:OUTING (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. jp×g🗯️ 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? jp×g🗯️ 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at WP:OUTTING think it would be easier to avoid.
- opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases.
- alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? jp×g🗯️ 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on their admission of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant WP:HARASSMENT and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't WP:OUTING people or contacting their employers. CaptainEek ⚓ 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding.
- Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts.
- BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point,
- the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous.
- AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I also wanted to question this block. I'm not familiar with all the applicable[REDACTED] rules and conventions, but if I found out that eg the Heritage Foundation had been paying a contractor to edit the climate change page, I would hope that editors would 1) question the contractor and their edits, and 2) separately write to the Heritage Foundation to ask what they were up to. The latter wouldn't qualify as harassment in my book, just a sensible response to a legitimate concern about the integrity of wikipedia.
- Fwiw I also don't think that EMsmile should be blocked because ultimately we don't know whether they were paid by ESG to push the ideological line of the NUA campaign. Given their long history as an editor, and the fact they conduct themselves with courtesy and decency, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Thisredrock (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Does Wikimedian in Residence apply?
EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit[REDACTED] seems analagous to | wikimedian in residence. See also WP:WIRCOI. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no WP:TEND. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. EMsmile (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- My situation is totally different to @EMsmile. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @EMsmile adjusting the page to favour her client (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the SRM article here. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per WP:DUE.
- Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding WP:OUTTING- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.
- Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. EMsmile (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. EMsmile (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile
Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. EMsmile is a paid editor who violated WP:OUTING - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight are highly disruptive - and that's notwithstanding the paid editing. Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. Simonm223 (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose block, support WP:TROUTing EMS for almost WP:OUTTING, WP:TROUTing AJL for aggressive interactions, warning ITK for WP:OUTTING.- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.- the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically WP:WIRCOI suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- From WP:WIRCOI
WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages
- this seems not to be the case here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)- like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.
- want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi appliesBluethricecreamman (talk) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by Bluethricecreamman - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. Thisredrock (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. Bluethricecreamman has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether EMsmile was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. Simonm223 (talk) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see User:EMsmile apologize for the WP:OUTING that occurred. Allan Nonymous (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. EMsmile (talk) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Strong oppose (uninvolved) there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in simple ignorance (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not WP:PUNISH).
- That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, it fails a DUCK test, and looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor. What I see is a properly disclosed WP:PAID editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors. Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't WP:CPUSH going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :TiggerJay (talk) 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.
- However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for 'potential civil-POV which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like this might come off is overly whitewashing, but
China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.
but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does call into need for a closer look, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group
- mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- From WP:WIRCOI
- Strong support. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, WP:NOTTHEM applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that WP:PAID only strongly discourages paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --Aquillion (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose and IMO unthinkable They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit
: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.
I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)- Personally, I am much more concerned about undeclared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. North8000 (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. Liz 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet WP:SOCK . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I meant meat puppet. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet WP:SOCK . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Tentative oppose - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. — Rhododendrites \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates with no opinion on indef block at this time.
From what I can see, Earth System Governance looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the COI guideline: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide custom that Wikimedians in Residence do not edit about their institution" (emphasis in the original). Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination:
- August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA.
- Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary.
- Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with WP:PAYTALK , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of WP:TPO.
When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil.
EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.
." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page.
" Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client.
It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
I looked at Earth System Governance Project last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics written 73% of the article, in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing.
I added the paragraph below to my comment at around the same time as EMSmile's response below ESG, like many non-profits, probably wants to help Misplaced Pages but needs guidance on our rules. It is very common for non-profits to see Misplaced Pages as a form of social media presence and to want to leverage Misplaced Pages to build their brand. Brand-building is not where the opportunity is on Misplaced Pages. The opportunity is to improve Misplaced Pages articles in the organization's area of expertise using top-quality sources. A best outcome for all this would be for EMSmile to stop the COI edits and then work with ESG to pivot the project in a more productive direction.
Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello User:Clayoquot, we know each other well from working on the same articles as part of WikiProject Climate Change. My client for the project under discussion here is the "Earth System Governance Foundation" (not the project (Earth System Governance Project (which is an alliance), nor the concept earth system governance itself). So when you say that I should "immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder", then who do you mean? Strictly speaking it would be the "Earth System Governance Foundation". They don't have a Misplaced Pages article about themselves, neither do they have a website.
- FWIW: If you look at the history of two articles that you mentioned: earth system governance and Earth System Governance Project, then I think you can see that I actually made them a lot better, not worse (compared with their versions from about early July last year). I added better sources and more nuanced content, including criticism and debates. If there are still unsourced, overly promotional statements in there, then this needs to be addressed (probably best on the talk pages or with direct edits of course).
- FYI: The Earth System Governance Project is “a global research network that aims to advance knowledge at the interface between global environmental change and governance. The network connects and mobilizes scholars from the social sciences and humanities researching at local and global scales.” It is not an advocacy group. It is not my client nor employer. There is also no official/legal/formal connection between the ESG Foundation and the ESG Project.
- If a topic ban was imposed, would such a topic ban for me for Earth System Governance Project apply only to the duration of this particular consultancy or for life? Also a topic ban from earth system governance? Would I still be allowed to propose changes on the talk pages? And would the ban stop when my consultancy stops (likely in a few months), or be there for life?
- Just to clarify for those following this ANI: the bulk of my 60 000 edits were done in a volunteer capacity; and a certain proportion (it would be hard to estimate exactly what proportion) was done for different clients (they are mentioned on my profile page). Those clients are all mission-aligned and are not for profits or even corporations. I have no "agenda" that I am pushing. All I want to do is improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles in the area of climate change and sustainable development. A lot of my work is actually just about readability improvements.
- Also just to clarify: when I mentioned "personal attacks" in that post that you, Clayoquot, linked to, I wasn't referring to attacks in this thread but I meant AJL's aggressive/confrontational comments on my talk page, and also on the talk page of SRM. It felt like a personal attack when someone writes on my talk page "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down. I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client." EMsmile (talk) 17:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't paid editing or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are directly adding quotes from the project's mission statement, which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact they even use the same website, which states that
he Earth System Governance Foundation also serves as legal representative of the Earth System Governance research community.
This is hardly what I would call "no official/legal/formal connection". Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To clarify, the fact that you work for a non-profit does not mean that it isn't paid editing or that the guidelines do not apply to the same extent. Some of your edits are directly adding quotes from the project's mission statement, which is far from "readability improvements" and definitely should have gone through an edit request.Also, despite what you claim, the Earth System Governance Foundation appears to be directly linked to the Project. In fact they even use the same website, which states that
- yeah, thats clearly a COI vio. let's report to WP:COI/N, or something else. EMS, it does not matter you made an article better, or are unbiased... COI's destroy the appearance of neutrality. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- did report to WP:COI/N Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does matter (which doesn't mean I agree that they do make the article better -- that's outside my expertise). Just a point of order: we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive. I understand there are some editors who will say things like "editing with a COI is not allowed", but that's flatly incorrect in policy terms. It's not in the spirit of a Wikipedian-in-Residence program, but if EMsmile claims to be a WiR it's not on their user page or in this thread, as far as I can tell (and being a WiR isn't usually an effective shield anyway -- it's more a signal that someone is knowledgeable and following best practices such as, yes, not editing about the institution that hires you). We're talking about a standard paid editor, not a WiR. If the changes were constructive and transparent, there would be no reason for action. Evidence of editing with a COI isn't relevant to a sanction except where it's not transparent or not constructive, and my understanding of this section is that multiple people take issue with the quality of EMsmile's edits (i.e. edits that fail NPOV, not merely an editor that has a COI; the relevance of highlighting a COI is that we rightly provide little-to-no leeway to COI editors to make content mistakes relevant to their COI). FWIW. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:COI/N put this back into our court. Simonm223 (talk) 13:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose indefinate block as seems excessive given her long history of useful edits. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Topic ban for EMsmile
I added this heading just now to break up a section that was getting long Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its
directaffiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project. This is the narrowest scope I can think of that would prevent the kind of disruption we have recently seen from you. I propose this topic ban be indefinite but appealable after 12 months. As you probably know, there's a good chance that you can avoid getting sanctioned if you commit to a voluntary restriction. I do not think at this time that you need to be banned from citing the scholarly works of ESG-affiliated people, however I strongly recommend you be very judicious and selective about the extent to which you do this. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)- Hi Clayoquot, I think your proposed topic ban is a good solution and way forward ("the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its affiliates, broadly construed. This obviously include the ESG Project and its founder. It also includes the Non-use Agreement as this is closely tied to the ESG Project."). I am happy to make a voluntary commitment to this restriction. I have no experience with such topic bans so I don't know the exact procedure. Do I put this on my profile page? Can you point me to an example where someone else has done this (maybe via my talk page)?
- By the way, the paragraph about the non-use agreement that is now (after some discussion) in the section on opposition to SRM research (second last paragraph) is pretty good in my opinion and does not need further changes at this stage (well, except the first sentence is a bit clunky, I already pointed that out on the talk page last week).
- SRM is part of the climate change topic complex and is thus, not surprisingly, a topic full of potential for debate and discussion (some people are strongly pushing for it, others are strongly warning about it), so I think further work is still needed and this article will evolve accordingly over time. Hopefully without any ANIs in the future. :-)
- I'll make sure I am more careful in future with respect to those grey areas while editing the solar radiation modification article as mentioned above by User:North8000. I could even commit that for the next few months, I don't make any edits to the solar radiation modification article directly but always go through the talk page (taking up the offer that North8000 suggested above: "I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged").
- Oh and should the section on my profile page where I explain how I manage any potential COIs that can arise from working for/with clients, need improvement and tightening? Happy to be given advice on this (maybe better on my talk page than here). EMsmile (talk) 22:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the topic ban, you can add it to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Voluntary. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about WP:DUE. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being
a pioneer in opposing SRM research
is sourced... to ETC Group itself). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 23:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC) - EMsmile, thank you for being flexible on this. Just to make sure you are aware, a topic ban means you may not make any edits related to the topic in question, and this includes edits to talk pages. There is a small set of exemptions. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh, the talk pages as well? Fine by me for the talk pages of ESGP and its founder but not for the entirety of the SRM article, I am sorry. I think this would not be justified. It's also a bit impractical. With regards to Chaotic Enby's post above I could stress that there are also secondary sources for the non-use agreement, and that I could provide them on the talk page and then leave it up to others if they want to add them to the article or not.
- For background (if this helps, but it should rather be on the talk page of the SRM article, not here): The solar geoengineering non-use agreement is an academic initiative that simply believes SRM is a dangerous technology that should not be further developed, much like nuclear technology in the past and that powerful interests are funding it. That's it. That is why the topic is contentious. EMsmile (talk) 23:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- As I described above, I believe your edits regarding NUA at Talk:Solar radiation modification violated WP:PAYTALK quite egregiously. Do you disagree?
- Posting sources on a talk page is one of the milder forms of advocacy but it is still advocacy. Other editors are capable of finding the sources they want on SRM very quickly, and their searches for those sources will probably be less biased than your searches. I do not think the benefit of you sharing sources outweighs the risk of you using the talk page for COI advocacy. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree. I've used the talk page at SRM since middle of last year to reach consensus with other editors in a collaborative manner, like I always do. I tried to make my points in a concise manner, even if I sometimes failed (should make talk past posts shorter in future). Sometimes they might look like a "wall of text" because I copied a paragraph or even a whole section that is under discussion across. Of course there is always room for improvement but to be banned from writing on the talk page of SRM at all is in my opinion excessive.
- Please also note that the person who started this ANI originally said that I am doing "PR" for my client. This is not true. I can expand on this further but I think this is a content question, not one about procedures. Perhaps it's better to now let that his be handled in the COI noticeboard thread here?: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#c-Bluethricecreamman-20250119181200-Earth_System_Governance_Project. As was pointed out above by Rhododendrites: "we do allow COI edits and even PAID edits as long as they're (a) transparent and (b) constructive."
- I believe my edits for the solar radiation modification article have been transparent and constructive. The article is in fairly good shape now and does not include any "PR" for a certain "brand" or alike. EMsmile (talk) 09:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- For the topic ban, you can add it to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Voluntary. Regarding the non-use agreement paragraph, I'm surprised to find it only citing primary sources (the agreement itself and its list of endorsements), making me wonder about WP:DUE. To be fair, that is a recurring concern throughout the section (with, for instance, the claim of ETC Group being
- The following comment was a reply to the comment by Rhododendrites dated 18:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC) in the section above.True, editing with a COI is allowed if certain practices are followed. Indeed this is looking more like a standard situation in which 73% of a Misplaced Pages article was written by someone who was paid by the subject. Our community has a fair amount of practice with this stuff. To answer EMSmile's question, the topic ban I propose is for the ESG Foundation (your client) and its
Just to be clear, a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates would not stop you from editing the SRM talk page. It would only stop you from editing the SRM talk page on the topic of ESG and its affiliates. And regarding your history on the SRM talk page, I'm sorry I think you just don't get it. The length of your posts there is a symptom of the attitude that you expressed in other ways. You took the position that you, a paid COI editor, get an equal say in the editorial decision-making process. Instead of offering information and then deferring to the judgement of unconflicted editors, you repeatedly asked for the article to be made more favorable to your client. And unless you are topic banned I see no reason to think you will not do it again. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 18:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I'd like to know what other editors think of edits like this at SRM and this at Frank Biermann (an article written almost entirely by EMsmile while being paid by ESG). Do the uninvolved people here see these as PR or not PR? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- IMO if it were not for the PE aspect they look like pretty routine factual edits and I wouldn't use the term PR (by it's common meaning) for them. With the declared PE aspect I'd call it where it would be better to discuss and let them be put in by somebody else if they agree. North8000 (talk) 20:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- (involved, as I've had disagreements with EMSmile before). To me, some of this doesn't quite look routine. For instance, using Biermann's website to say he's graduated with distinction (we rarely mention this), or his own website to state he's often used by the press, and namedropping in a highly-viewed article. It's not egregious, but it would raise eyebrows even without the PE aspect. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Femke, I've modified the Frank Biermann article accordingly now (I agree with you; this needed improvement - my bad). And just to explain: I had mentioned Frank Biermann in the SRM article because he played an important role in developing the non-use agreement in the first place, and not because I wanted to "name drop" him (137 pageviews per day for the SRM article in the last year is not exactly "a highly-viewed article"). But I do understand that this could be "eyebrow raising" in the overall context of this COI discussion.
- I would be happy to improve the Frank Biermann article further if there are still problematic aspects (or "PR"?) that I have overlooked so far. However, I think it's probably better if I give myself a voluntary restriction for this article and also for the Earth System Governance Project article, as well as the non-use agreement component of the solar radiation modification article. I have just now written about this voluntary restriction on my profile page here. I feel bad for the page watchers and admins that this ANI has gone on for such a long time now. Maybe we could draw it to a close now with this conclusion and voluntary topic ban? (if needed this could be fine-tuned through my talk page rather than through this ANI thread?) EMsmile (talk) 23:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- We are making some progress. Your voluntary restriction, as currently worded, is quite far off from a topic ban or even a mainspace topic ban. A topic ban on the ESGF would stop you from, for example, adding a mention of Biermann or the ESGP to articles like Solar radiation management. You have written about your client in multiple articles that are not in your voluntary restriction.
- At the very least - whether or not you have a voluntary restriction - you need to follow the COI guideline. Your comment above suggests that you don't recognize that you should have used a edit request to add Biermann's name to the SRM article. Are you willing to commit to following the entirety of the COI guideline, including the use of edit requests for any non-trivial edits that involve your clients? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 02:00, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
A Case of Vandalism and Ignorance
There is in my view a vandalism case in the[REDACTED] page Ahir.
Pls Understand whole matter
First thing, i am assuming that in that Ahir page, it has concensus for long time that Generally Ahir has three Sub-Division. 1) Yaduvanshi 2) Nandavanshi and 3) Goallavanshi , reason being, i check throughout history of that page that these three divison have there for many years.
But recently one editor changed all that in three edits these are following - 1st edit 2nd edit 3rd edit
At first stance , i like their reason of these editing and thought probably this guy has a valid reason for doing that and I ignored.
I myself for the first time came here for the inclusion of a word ' Prakrit' here as it is well known fact with citation see
Then as being myself an extended user, someone tag and approaches me that this guy edits many factual correct things. pls correct it. then i got into this history contributions n all. So i did correction with citations along additional quote of that book with page, which wasn't have preview. see and this
But that guy again revet all this and said please add citation without reading citation that i actually provided see
Then i go his talk page and told that guy to undo those edits as it has two book reference along with page and quote see here last talk I thought he would give me a valuable reply but instead of this, he just delete or archive my Talk and said that i should go for admin see but i don't know who admin is here.
Now i go on editing all these again with three more book reference in consecutive three edits see 1 2 and 3 and left a talk page discussion as well see
But apart from all that that editor still revert all this buy claimig that all sources have either no value , or outdated or no preview without discussion on talk page and literally suggest me to go talk page which i already did but no one replied me . see
This is totally i think Vandalism Case.
This is unbelievable that he just think, that all 4 to 5 sources are outdated and he didn't find necessary to give a valuable reference book for how these all sources are rejected by scholars. Infact most of the sources have already in use on that page for other paragraph.
that's all , hoping it need an urgent interrogation. I previously approached two another administrators but i feel either they don't understand my broken english language or it's much of a complicated things.
Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callmehelper (talk • contribs)
- This report has the characteristics of a content dispute. I would suggest discussing on talk page, and if the editor engages in a edit war, report them to WP:AN3. Fantastic Mr. Fox 08:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Fantastic Mr. Fox
- I am sure you understand whole matter here otherwise you wouldn't suggest me anything. i already left a talk on that page, if anyone don't want to talk or participate in that, then what's my fault here ?
- It's not a content dispute, just a totally biasness because there are bunches of scholar book evidences they reject orally and don't provide any support for there rejection.
- so instead of giving me lecture, why you don't involve there ?
- such a irresponsible replied , i got in WP:AN/I here , i wasn't expect that.
- Anyways.
- Thanks for reply.
- Regards. Callmehelper (talk) 05:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a very rude reply, Callmehelper. Fantastic Mr. Fox took a few minutes of his time to respond to your query here and you insult them. At this rate, I doubt you'll get any more feedback from other editors to address your problem. This is a collaborative editing project and it's better to make allies rather than drive people away. We are all volunteers here and no one is obligated to respond to you. Liz 06:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz , I apologise if anyone feel that a rude reply. But in my experience, editor don't read long incident probelm i guess. they either get bored or don't try to read. They try to suggest to go talk page, but here things get complicated.
- Some people tag me to look that page, but I can't do anything as here people do reply either very late or do reply to go to talk page and talk page don't reply, again the circle problem.
- But anyways. i did again leave a talk page right know.
- Thanks for your response for letting know me that i was being rude. but it was more of a frustration of my side.
- i will keep in mind in future.
- Much Regards Callmehelper (talk) 08:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's a very rude reply, Callmehelper. Fantastic Mr. Fox took a few minutes of his time to respond to your query here and you insult them. At this rate, I doubt you'll get any more feedback from other editors to address your problem. This is a collaborative editing project and it's better to make allies rather than drive people away. We are all volunteers here and no one is obligated to respond to you. Liz 06:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
WP:CIR, WP:BATTLEGROUND and blatant tampering of sources
202.57.44.130 (talk · contribs) has been mass reverted for repeated reasons such as this probable WP:UNDUE and WP:SOAPBOX and lying on their sources and edit summary (See , , and (repeated in multiple summaries regarding entries to the 2024 Metro Manila Film Festival) and making multiple canned WP:UNCIVIL statements to scare off users trying to rv them . I also have reason to suspect that a COI may also be possible. Borgenland (talk) 14:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't looked into their use of sources but I posted them a warning message about threatening to get other editors blocked if they edit certain articles. Liz 17:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been deliberately mislabelling urls from LionhearTV, a local blog that is on the verge of being declared unreliable, as coming from WP:RAPPLER. See Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines/Sources#RfC: LionhearTV for further info. Borgenland (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Basile Morin, Arionstar and FPC
Everyone has cooled down and agreed to stop with the mishegas. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I was going to let this go as there has been no recent (within the past two days) hounding, until a comment by Basile Morin (talk · contribs) led me straight here.
Since at least January 3, I have seen a general pattern of Wikihounding on the FPC board involving accusations that ArionStar (talk · contribs) has engaged in sockpuppetry on Wikimedia Commons, something I find only of minimal relevance with FPCs. I have counted at least three times where a user (Charlesjsharp (talk · contribs)) has copy-and-pasted the following message on a nomination ArionStar has started:
- Comment I notify other voters that the nominator has been banned on Commons and has been insulting on this page towards another user. (at Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Popeye, Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Hajji and Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Jimmy Carter 2)
Not only is this failing to focus on content, it's also completely irrelevant to a process involving images. It's sort of like telling people to oppose an FAC because they haven't given good reviews. I would have left this here, until another user (Basile Morin), who has also engaged in Wikihounding, decided to directly attack me and ArionStar instead of constructively responding to my concerns. What really damns me is this comment, in full. I was struck with the flu, so was unable to respond, but I think I'll just bring it directly here, seeing how this isn't the first time this has happened:
There is no "target" as you imagine, and each of us would like to be able to calmly evaluate new quality nominations as we are supposed to see in this section. Rather than being asphyxiated by an avalanche of weak candidates, all precipitated by the uncontrolled frenzy of a hyper-impulsive participant. Furthermore, no user is obliged to come and provoke conflicts via illegitimate puppets, and even less so if you don't want us to be interested in you. You are "kinda new to the whole FPC process", EF5, according to your own words. Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months (User:Sir MemeGod, User:WxTrinity, User:MemeGod27...), and you also use alternative accounts. Some of your recent nominations are orphans and you're probably not the "author" of the photos on which you yourself are the subject. Above, you wrongly mention a "retaliatory opposing" when if that had been Charles' intention, he could have voted "oppose per JayCubby" to bring down this nomination even faster. But Charlesjsharp is usually an excellent reviewer, also a photographer and nominator, regular on WP:FPC and COM:FPC, with more than 530 images promoted on Commons and 303 on Misplaced Pages. I think the idea he expresses is mainly a serious fed-up feeling, to see, once again, a deluge of nominations coming from the same overexcited account. The fact is that ArionStar is here only because he was banned from Commons, unfortunately that is the sad reality. However, the goal is not to repeat here the same mistakes as those made there. Note also that, just after being asked to calm down, ArionStar turns a deaf ear and reiterates, as if he were absolutely seeking his sanction. Obtuse insistence is bound to annoy even the calmest and most patient people. It is obvious that if you want to progress and maintain good relationships with others, you must first be able to become aware of your mistakes, and the reasons for your failures. There is no hunt against ArionStar, but no "special indulgence" either. In my opinion, Charles has mainly tried a kind of moderately subtle "subliminal message" aimed at the participant himself, who would do better to listen once and for all to the good advice, rather than ignoring it and making fun of others. This generous advice has been offered countless times, well before he was banned. Kind regards -- Basile Morin
I mean, what kind of comment is this? Whatever it is, it needs to stop. "Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months" is just cherry-picking things I've done, with no actual regard to relevance. I really don't think a "talk" is going to do much here (which I've already tried), so I'm bringing it here. — EF 17:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Charles and Basile don't commit to cutting it out, I think one way IBANs are definitely in order here. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- (ec) EF5, this is a confusing report to try to sort out although Voorts seems to be able to follow things here. Are you the only commenter here or is some of this content from another editor who didn't leave their signature? If this entire complaint is all from you can you identify, in one sentence, which editor you are complaining about (since several are mentioned here), whether or not you have notified them of this report and what exactly your "charge" is against them? Again, give the heart of your complaint in ONE sentence although you may include diffs. Thank you. Liz 18:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I am the only filer. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: As I understand the report, and from looking at the diffs, Charles and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that Arion is socking/engaging in harassment/vandalism at Commons. Basile and Charles have both been around for a long time and should know better. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you, voorts, for the summation. I am completely ignorant of what is going on at the Commons. It's enough for me to keep up with what's happening on this Wikimedia project of which I only barely succeed at, much less know who is socking or who is blocked on other projects. Liz 19:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- "and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that" => No, we did not vote here. -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The intent was clearly to cast aspersions on the entire nomination, even if you didn't use a bolded oppose. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Arionstar was indeed indeffed on Commons and has socked there, creating some bad blood among some FPC regulars. For better or worse, however, we regard the projects as independent. In fact, demonstrating constructive behavior on a different project is often a good strategy to appeal a block. As Arionstar continued socking at Commons, I don't think that's the goal, but the point stands that anyone who wishes to see Arionstar sanctioned here would need to open a thread on this board with diffs showing bad behavior here (or, at minimum, bad behavior elsewhere that's directly connected to conflicts here, such as harassing a user on Commons because of a dispute here). Absent consensus otherwise, Arionstar is AFAIK in good standing on enwp.
- Doesn't mean anyone's obliged to support his nominations, of course, and I don't blame the Commons regulars from not doing so. The only problem would be an opposition here solely due to behavior there, which (as much as I'm critical of enwp's FPC criteria) is probably not a valid reason for opposition. That said, I don't see that anyone has done that? At Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Popeye, Charles posted a comment and did not vote. Basile opposed, but provided clear reasons why, which didn't center on behavioral issues. Just not sure what there is to do here. Maybe this bit of advice will suffice: (a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is WP:ADVOCACY against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm learning from my mistakes and unilaterally made peace with Basile. The FP guidelines here are different but I'm understanding them day after day. ArionStar (talk) 18:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is WP:ADVOCACY against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. EF 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
ArionStar's disruptions
(First, to take into account at the origin of this report by EF5, an annoyance perhaps caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination: Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Pilger twin tornadoes.)
Now, concerning ArionStar:
- ArionStar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
See:
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Buddha of Ibiraçu
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Kaaba 2 (now delisted and replaced)
- Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Tokyo Skytree (clear attack against me)
.jpg){kind=link}
My talk page also was "attacked" with some rather inappropriate puns on my first name (2, 3, 4, 5, 6).
WP:HARASS. These edits were reverted by User:RodRabelo7, with a warning in Portuguese language left to the user (translation here), before being restored by ArionStar as if my talk page was a battleground.
More worrying, A few days ago the same person used sockpuppets to pollute my account on Commons:
Exhausting. There have been a lot of lies by this same person, on Commons. Best regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Regarding me being “mad about my failed nom”, that is casting serious WP:ASPERSIONS. I engaged because I saw what looked like uncivil behavior, not because one of my nominations failed. EF 19:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your subjective opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Basile Morin: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my rational vote. Regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's casting aspersions which is not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion. Last time I felt "forced" to cross out my comment, it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:WIKILAWYERING about "last time" doesn't help your case when you are casting aspersions. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your links. I will try to read these two "essays" in peace and quiet, as well as this "information page". I already wrote a friendly message below. All the best -- Basile Morin (talk) 05:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:WIKILAWYERING about "last time" doesn't help your case when you are casting aspersions. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion. Last time I felt "forced" to cross out my comment, it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's casting aspersions which is not on. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here's my rational vote. Regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Basile Morin: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for your subjective opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at WP:SPI. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. Liz 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- "Attacks, attacks, he attacked"… I'll keep my silence because I try… (It's sad to see when someone "loses the line" after a "ceasefire request")
- P.S.: " annoyance perhaps caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination"… kkkkkkk (laughs in Brazilian Portuguese). ArionStar (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- ArionStar, I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. Liz 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Agree Thanks. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- ArionStar, I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. Liz 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at WP:SPI. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. Liz 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
On reflection Thank you. I would like to apologize to user EF5 if I may have made one or more errors of judgment regarding them. I do not know this user very well, and having noticed that they often change their name, use multiple accounts, and edit other users' personal pages, I may have indeed become too defensive. Since they are apparently very young in their photos, I may have made some wrong assumptions of behavior. It may also be the fatigue generated by the long repetitive puppet hunts on the other friend project. So all the better if this person (EF5) is reliable and well-intentioned. I don't blame them for anything, and I'm rather looking forward to getting back to my usual activities.
I agree with Rhododendrites' suggestion and thank him for his effort to calm things down: "(a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp." I understand that my approach was not the most tactful, sorry. I can nevertheless prove that the approach was 100% healthy and intended to help Misplaced Pages.
I have absolutely no problem with ArionStar contributing constructively to the development of the encyclopedia (if that is really his intention). However, I would also like to draw attention to the fact that this wise warning from another user is in my humble opinion far from being "vandalism" as the other imagines. This is perhaps a most important point. The last thing I claim is the need for ArionStar to immediately and permanently stop using unproductive puppets. Neither elsewhere nor here. See WP:BADSOCK "Good hand" and "bad hand" accounts.
I noticed that after self-imposing a "wikibreak" they reverted another user to my own talk page, thus adding to the annoying noise. I would therefore be grateful if ArionStar would never again try to get in touch through this channel. I need peace and concentration.
Finally, I am happy, personally, to make an effort of discretion. I have accepted the criticisms that have been addressed to me, and sincerely consider them constructive. Thank you to each and every one of you. I wish you all fruitful research and rich contributions on Misplaced Pages. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In addition, I'll ignore any report about me coming from you here on Misplaced Pages. ArionStar (talk) 04:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza
- Aubrey Plaza (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Religião, Política e Futebol (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- ZanderAlbatraz1145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Religião, Política e Futebol and ZanderAlbatraz1145 have both been edit warring at Aubrey Plaza over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration.
Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. Kingsif (talk) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - The Bushranger One ping only 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. Kingsif (talk) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. Nil Einne (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. Liz 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at Talk:Aubrey Plaza, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Sundayclose: Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says,
This complaint is not about the content directly
. We are not discussing the content you're disputing, but it would be great if you did try to gain some consensus at the article talkpage. Kingsif (talk) 14:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Sundayclose: Look, I didn't originally bring your edits up because they appeared to be an attempt to prevent the edit-warring. But your comment here makes it seem like you don't recognise the problem with the edit warring? As my opener says,
- Though I honestly thought I'd waited too long to take further steps to protect a highly-viewed article, fair enough. PP has helped over the weekend: while IMO the history is easy enough to follow in terms of seeing what would have been needed for immediate preventative/protective measures, yes it is a bit more complicated. Full post to follow. Kingsif (talk) 12:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at Talk:Aubrey Plaza, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- There have been numerous edits to the Aubrey Plaza article since 4 January, when it was announced her husband had died, later declared a suicide. Most of the edits revolve around adding this information and how to describe her husband in the rest of the article. Most seem to be well-intentioned, don't all meet best practice for BLP editing, but generally can be resolved with corrective edits.
- Separately, since 29 December, some users have been attempting to add a lot of information about the BLP subject's ethnic background and non-notable extended family.
- The first edit to add this information was on 29 December by IP 94.63.205.236. This was bot-reverted for the bad source. The same IP reinstated the edit moments later. Diffs:
- @Sundayclose: Then reverted the edit later that day, again with sourcing concerns. Diff: Sundayclose also warned the IP about BLP, and the IP went dormant.
- During all the editing on 4 January, another IP, 74.12.250.57, changed some of this info (describing Ashkenazi Jewish as Native American) for probably malicious reasons: - while another, 2600:1000:b107:a865:e028:5f95:de45:c803, removed some of the ethnic background info with a strange edit reason ("Updated"):
- The article was then confirmed-protected for two days.
- On 10 January, @Religião, Política e Futebol: made two edits (that for content purposes we will consider as one) to reinstate, and further expand upon, the information on family and ethnic background. Edits:
- Another IP, 2a00:23c6:ed85:7d01:3d25:a335:96f5:4b40, undid the edits on 10 January, again with sourcing and BLP concerns. Diff:
- On 14 January, Religião reinstates their version without explanation. Diff:
- On 15 January, I (Kingsif), undid this with the same source/BLP concerns. I also mention more specifically what could be BLP issues, and recommend using the talkpage to discuss the edit. Diff:
- Also on 15 January, Religião adds the information back. In their edit reason, they seem to acknowledge the BLP specifics I mentioned but then claim that their content is not an issue. They also say that they don't need to discuss. Diff:
- On 16 January, I (Kingsif), again remove the information. I address the content and sourcing concerns more forcefully, and the need for discussion. I warn Religião that their behaviour in the circumstances constitutes edit warring. Diff:
- Also on 16 January, Religião once again added back the content. Their edit reason asked why they can't add personal information on non-notable people: a lack of knowledge of BIO policy, but unwillingness to do anything about that instead of edit-war. Diff:
- I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
- In regards to the mention of Baena's suicide, this was first added shortly after it was first reported on 4 January.
- @DiaMali: did much of the immediate updating, including adding and removing this before it was confirmed. Diff:
- Over the next two days, the mention was removed and reinstated by various other users based on industry sources/lack of confirmation. E.g.: , ,
- The edit-warring really began on 6 January, when @Ibeaa: removed the mention. At this point, the suicide had been confirmed, and Ibeaa did not provide a reason. Possibly worth noting is that Ibeaa's edit was made the exact minute the article's protection was removed. Diff:
- On 7 January, IP 2804:d41:cb23:cc00:f4ae:3bc:747e:e196 adds it back. Diff: Also on 7 January, Ibeaa removed it and the reference without explanation. Diff:
- The next user to re-add the info was @ZanderAlbatraz1145:, who also did not use an edit reason, on 9 January. Diff:
- The IP 2800:355:9:f9f3:3059:222e:2783:93b8 removed it, without an edit reason, on 11 January. Diff:
- @Sundayclose: reverted the IP on the same day. Diff:
- Ibeaa then removed the mention again, also on 11 January. Diff:
- Zander then adds it back on 13 January, still without a reason. Not massively relevant, but Zander used the deprecated phrasing
committed suicide
for the first time in this edit, which IP 50.71.82.63 fixed. Diff: - Between 13 and the morning (GMT) of 15 January, Zander added and Ibeaa removed the information five times each, no edit reasons in sight.
- I (Kingsif) removed it on 15 January, tucked into the BLP edit, to try and stop the pair from edit warring by saying it should also be discussed. I should have probably done them as separate edits. Diff:
- Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 15 January. Diff:
- On 16 January, I again removed it as part of the larger edit. I made a clearer separation in this edit reason, to explain that because inclusion is (clearly) contentious, it should be discussed. Diff:
- Zander added it back, without a reason, again on 16 January. Diff:
- Ibeaa removes it, without a reason, also on 16 January. Diff:
- Sundayclose added it back on 16 January, with the explanation that it is
accurate and properly sourced
. FWIW, while accurate, it was sourced to People magazine, which ten days earlier was not accepted as a suitable source for the same information at the Jeff Baena article. Recently-deceased needs more than a celebrity magazine that actually says "unconfirmed but believed". More pressing, I would expect Sundayclose to have pushed for discussion as the inclusion was clearly contentious. Diff: - Ibeaa then removed again on 16 January, with the reason that they didn't know why they were still pursuing the edit war. I would have honestly interpreted that to mean they weren't going to continue, but anyway. Diff:
- Ibeaa's conduct was already reported here at ANI by Sundayclose, on 17 January, and they were blocked quickly. Archive.
- I don't know and won't speculate as to why Sundayclose did not also report Zander at this time.
- After Ibeaa is blocked, Zander continues their side of the edit war on 17 January, still without providing an edit reason. Diff:
- I then made this report, and tried to revert to a different, stable, version, before asking for an increase in page protection.
- Zander then adds the information back, without starting a discussion, before page protection is applied. They appear to have seen this ANI report, as they included an edit reason. Included in the edit reason is that it didn't seem
vital enough
to explain themselves, which I can't accept in good faith given they were going back-and-forth directly with Ibeaa and had been told to discuss since the inclusion had proven contentious. Diff:
- This is a lot of data. But it seems like if edit-warring is the problem, a complaint filed at WP:ANEW or a request for page protection at WP:RFP would be more suitable than ANI. Liz 03:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated vandalism by IP 27.125.159.200 on spaceflight related pages.
List of Super heavy boosters vandalism:
Removing the water landings regarding the Flight 4 and 6 boosters from the table.
Removing the failed landing attempts of the Flight 2 and 3 boosters, marking them as expended while also breaking the template
Demonstrating ability to repair the templates broken, does not do so
Attempting to treat a broken template as a link
Further attempts to use a template as a link
Outright deleting the broken templates (that they knew how to fix)
Finally restoring the broken templates
List of Starship vehicles vandalism:
Marking flight 3 vehicle as expended, with no landing attempt for flight 3 and 4. This is false: flight 3 attempted to reenter, flight 4 landed. Also breaks a template
Repairs template, marks flight 6 and 7 as having not attempted a landing
Marks flight 2 booster as having not made a landing attempt
Marks flight 3, 4, and 6 vehicles as having not attempted a landing, as well as flight 5 ship
Attempts to insert a template where a template cannot go
List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches vandalism:
Adds claim of booster being expended without adding a source
Expands upon previous edit. Does not add a source
They have been warned before to cease their vandalism. All of the above edits were done after this warning. Redacted II (talk) 01:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Redacted II, have you tried to communicate with them before coming to ANI? That's typically the first step and ANI is the last step if other forms of reaching out haven't worked. Liz 03:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- They've been warned before by another user, and the damage to the affected articles was rather severe.
- Another warning would not disuade future vandalism/disruptive editing. Redacted II (talk) 03:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Redacted II, have you tried to communicate with them before coming to ANI? That's typically the first step and ANI is the last step if other forms of reaching out haven't worked. Liz 03:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Death threats by 2.98.176.93
BLOCKED Blocked and TPA revoked, nothing further. (non-admin closure) Heart 07:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2.98.176.93 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Left a death threat here - diff
Adakiko (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note: 30 day block by Bbb23 (talk · contribs) Adakiko (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Death threat left after block. Talk page access? Adakiko (talk) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- TPA removed. Liz 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. Liz 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - The Bushranger One ping only 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. 2600:1011:B331:28FE:1036:B7B1:4292:C997 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you use Twinkle, you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. Liz 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you use Twinkle, you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Exactly, The Bushranger, thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. Liz 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See WP:UTRS for your options." Cullen328 (talk) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. 2600:1011:B331:28FE:1036:B7B1:4292:C997 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - The Bushranger One ping only 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
User:222.127.220.160 continuously adding incorrect data
222.127.220.160 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I took a look at their contributions, and despite some appearing helpful, most of them included changing the wind speed of tropical cyclones to incorrect estimates. The user has been warned this month by someone else, but seems to keep changing data regardless. I wasn't sure where to report this since it didn't look like vandalism, so I thought here might be the best place. —JCMLuis 💬 04:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Your first step, JCMLuis, before coming to WP:ANI is to communicate with the other editor. Have you tried that? Liz 04:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, and I don't think it would have done anything since there was no reply to the warning given to the editor. —JCMLuis 💬 04:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That is not the right approach. In general, it is necessary for editors to make an effort to post meaningful text without a template. That might not affect the editor but it shows the rest of us that an attempt to communicate has occurred, and that allows admins to more readily block. At any rate, the IP was making dozens of fast edits and I have blocked them for 24 hours and left a message at their talk. Johnuniq (talk) 04:57, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- No, and I don't think it would have done anything since there was no reply to the warning given to the editor. —JCMLuis 💬 04:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated copyvios by Manannan67
- Manannan67 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Manannan67 has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (2020, 2020, a "final warning" in 2021 from Moneytrees, 2023, 2023), most recently from me, when I discovered a copyright violation they placed on Mariana de Jesús Torres. The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did remove one early warning from the talk page. Dclemens1971 (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to Anglo-Saxon mission which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. Manannan67 (talk) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to Mariana de Jesús Torres. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. Dclemens1971 (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." Manannan67 (talk) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Then I have no idea to what you are referring. As I said, I am not familiar with "Portraits of the Saints", nor do I know from where they got their info. Manannan67 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's not the sentence you added in the revision I noted. That revision has been deleted due to the infringing text added by you. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It does not show up. This fr ES "During his first term as an abbess, she suffered persecution from a group of rebel nuns who wanted to relax the Rule within the convent. The rebellion grew and the sisters who were considered unobservants put them in the prison of the Convent, along with the other Spanish Founder Mothers." Manannan67 (talk) 18:27, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to Mariana de Jesús Torres. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. Dclemens1971 (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
2409:40D4:2041:20BA:8000:0:0:0
This IP, User:2409:40D4:2041:20BA:8000:0:0:0 keeps changing ordinals in similar pages (Colombian presidents). Pleasse block this IP immediately otherwise this IP will continually change the ordinals again. (Note: Already reported on WP:AIV) Migfab008 (talk) 08:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Note that this ISP, Reliance Jio, assigns IPv6 addresses over an extremely large range and so this user is likely to IP hop.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Naniwoofg
Naniwoofg (talk · contribs) has been the subject of a complaint at Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines#User:Naniwoofg for issues involving images and WP:IDNHT. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint includes refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. Borgenland (talk) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can we get a follow-up on this? @Naniwoofg has failed to respond to all inquiries on affected article talk pages, their user talk page, and the Tambayan PH talk page. We have been reverting their unexplained and unusual edits to the infoboxes of several Philippine road and building articles back and forth for the past few days. Ganmatthew (talk • contribs) 07:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support sanctioning this user. One latest questionable edit is on Pulilan article, which I partially fixed. Naniwoofg claimed to had updated the infobox images, but the user used an image of the Pulilan Church before the 2019 renovation. I replaced Naniwoofg's choice of the church image with the one image taken after the renovation. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Okvishal and years of self promotion
Okvishal indef'd. Article has been deleted (at its most recent title attempt, Vishal Raaj) and salt applied to all three variations that have been used. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Okvishal: has been an editor for 14 years. They have 138 edits but only 11 of them are non-deleted ones and those non deleted ones are also for self promotion or promotion of their feature film. A look at their talkpage shows the sheer scale of self promotional editing they have done over the course of their wikicareer. Right after joining they created an autobiography which was speedy deleted, they recreated the article under a different title and it was deleted (speedy) as well. Over the course of 14 years, they have recreated their article and those of related topics several times all leading to waste of community time through AfDs as Vishal Raj,Dream Lock,Nikkesha, and most recently at Vishal Raaj. It is clear that they are not (and never were) here to build an encyclopaedia. Consider blocking them and WP:SALTing Vishal Raj,Vishal Raaj,Raj Vishal etc. Nxcrypto Message 12:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've blocked them as it's clear they're only here to promote their non-notable self. Canterbury Tail talk 22:29, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
109.173.147.169
WP:AIV exists, I don't think admins have much else to do here. (non-admin closure) ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 13:07, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This user, 109.173.147.169, keeps persistently vandalising pages, even after they've been given a fourth and final warning. Dipper Dalmatian (talk) 12:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- This belongs at WP:AIV if it is unambiguous vandalism. (Non-administrator comment) Heart 12:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- User has already been reported there, but thanks for the reminder anyway. Dipper Dalmatian (talk) 12:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Persistent addition of unsourced content by 82.42.205.209
82.42.205.209 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, hasn't responded to warnings and continued after final warning. Examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Waxworker (talk) 14:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Azhar Morgan
Azhar Morgan has been blocked. Schazjmd (talk) 15:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Azhar Morgan has been mass reverting IP editors and issuing final vandalism warnings. Some of the edits reverted are good like this grammar mistake or reversion of this addition. In addition this user's first edits appear to be vandalism: , , , , , . Could an admin look at this? Maria Gemmi (talk) 15:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- They also reverted a report on them here. Maria Gemmi (talk) 15:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of viewMisplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion, maybe more)
- Cherkash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see Russo-Ukrainian_War#Background, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4).
The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the Formula_one pages and even had raised the issue here (old link), with no visible actions following.
Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg
They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints.
Other examples can be seen from commons:Special:Contributions/Cherkash, such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: example 1, example 2
The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN International reactions to the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262, United Nations General Assembly resolution A/73/L.47, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4.
I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content. Unas964 (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the User talk page, e.g. about normalising separatist states, and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in the corresponding topic.
- I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via de facto statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often replicated by other contributors, which I cannot even comment on. Unas964 (talk) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Here is a link to the last time this was raised here.
- The short form: there appears to be a dispute between use of de-facto or de-jure borders. That is why Taiwan comes up. Some editors appear to believe that it is more neutral to either use de facto borders (Taiwan independent, Crimea not part of Ukraine) rather than de jure borders (Taiwan = China, Crimea = Ukraine).
- I would suggest, whether de facto or de jurw borders are used the map should be consistent in that usage. I would also suggest that Unas964 (talk · contribs) should adhere to WP:AGF while Cherkash (talk · contribs) needs to start communicating with other editors at least minimally, which will likely ease such assumptions regarding their editing.Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In any case, what's the alleged misbehaviour here? We can't stop an editor uploading images on commons, nor can we do anything about what is in their categories. We can prevent these images being used in our articles but is the editor actually the one putting them in our articles? Nil Einne (talk) 23:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
UN Resolutions are not Misplaced Pages guidelines. They're not even binding for the countries involved, let alone Misplaced Pages. UN Resolutions do not recognize Taiwan nor Israeli current borders, yet we recognize their independence and their de facto territories in out articles. De jure, there's no Taiwan, and Israel is still at war with Iraq since 1947. De jure, the Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union. Do we care? Misplaced Pages focuses on facts, the de facto state of the world, not bound by temporary laws made by temporary entities which often don't even recognize each other: according to Bhutan, de jure there's no Croatia; according to Greece, there's no Northern Cyprus; according to Serbia, there's no Kosovo; according to the UN, there's no Taiwan... should we follow them? Of course not. You're free to be pro-Ukrainian or pro-Russian, as long as you stick to facts. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My only horse in this race is that Misplaced Pages should be consistent, at least at the level of any given artifact (such as a map), of showing either de jure borders, de facto borders or no borders at all. It is non-neutral to pick and choose de facto for thee, de jure for me. Simonm223 (talk) 14:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their de facto state. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Taiwan is de facto independent and de jure non-independent so I think you may have the terms backward there. However this speaks to my point - the important thing, from a neutrality position, is to stick to a consistent method of parsing these factual questions. Because, in a lot of these cases, it's not a matter of "facts over anything" but is rather making a positive decision which set of facts to prefer. It is a fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine. It is also a fact that Crimea is not presently being administered by Ukraine and is thus de facto not part of that country. If we have a map that chooses to prefer the de jure condition of Crimea as part of Ukraine and then to use the de facto boundary between China and Taiwan this is now non-neutral. It's Misplaced Pages failing to set a consistent standard and instead going based on vibes.
- Standards must be consistent. Ideally these standards should be consistent across the project and documented in an MOS. Failing that these standards should be consistent within any given article. Failing that these standards absolutely must be consistent in an indivisible artifact such as a map.
- As a corollary it is in favour of Misplaced Pages's neutrality goals to prefer a consistent representation of borders, whether that is de facto, de jure or to not show national borders at all (which remains an option). Now I will note that I didn't see much in the way of talk page discussion or of edit summaries from @Cherkash - which I pointed out as somewhere they could improve in my original comment - but if Cherkash is, in fact, motivated by wanting a consistent standard for depicting national boundaries on a map then @Unas964 has seriously failed to assume good faith by depicting said forwarding of neutrality goals as if it were a hate-motivated attack on Ukraine. Simonm223 (talk) 15:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I don't
have the terms backward there
. I literally stated thatDe jure, there's no Taiwan
, and also what I meant forfacts, the de facto state of the world
. Please, work on your reading and comprehension skills before making such accusations. Misplaced Pages requires competence. // and no, it is nota fact that Crimea is de jure part of Ukraine
, as de jurethe Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine violated the Constitution of the Soviet Union
, as I had already wrote, because de jure the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet didn't have the authority to mandate land exchanges among constituent states, power which they only had de facto. Do better. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC) - Taiwan is not de jure non-independent, de jure inherently requires picking a jure so to speak. It's a ruling from within a legal system, not a natural fact. That said, I agree picking maps with particular borders is not hateful conduct. If there's diffs of something else, it would be helpful to see them. CMD (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- According to that logic, any war crime or mass genocide could be justified by neutrality and Misplaced Pages:AGF. In theory, that does not align with Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT, since neutrality cannot allow for extremist views. Yet considering the replies here, I conclude that there is a consensus on Misplaced Pages that in the Russo-Ukrainian_War the positions of the victim and the aggressor are treated as equal or in favour of the former. Unas964 (talk) 17:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration Unas964 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is fast reaching WP:NOTFORUM territory. Simonm223 (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- We also have WP:RUSUKR. Mellk (talk) 03:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is fast reaching WP:NOTFORUM territory. Simonm223 (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Ukraine did not bomb Donbass and no reliable source would prove that, on the contrary -- such claims are pure pro-Russian propaganda narrative which indicates your biased position that thus cannot be taken into consideration Unas964 (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I guess the Donbass families Ukraine bombed from 2014 to 2022 would have a different POV. You're free to keep yours, we don't blame you at all, but stop claiming to be a victim and don't try to dictate your POV onto other editors and encyclopedic articles. We do not support Ukraine nor Russia, we're here to write unbiased facts. Thanks. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 03:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Simonm223: I don't
- @Simonm223: Facts over anything. Both as a contributor and as a reader, I don't want my maps to hide Taiwan, Kosovo, Croatia, Palestine or Crimea just because someone somewhere doesn't agree with their de facto state. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 15:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There is no point in speculating what was legal or not in a totalitarian state, where laws are primarily instruments for maintaining control and suppressing opposition rather than upholding justice (see e.h. here). The soviet/Russian viewpoint on Crimea has the same zero value as the position of Third Reich on the state of Israel. It cannot be attributed to the same weight as of the democratic countries as Ukraine, Israel, the US etc. In the same way, you could justify the Khmer Rouge terror, Tiananmen Square massacre, Holocaust and 9/11 attacks by some de facto laws. Soviet regime murdered tens of millions of people, and the current Russian legal system justifies that: not only Holodomor, the genocide of Crimean Tatars and the other indigenous minorities in Crimea, but in oher regions, as well (as e.g. Asharshylyk). That renders de facto maps a propaganda instrument of a malevolent state, which could not be accepted on any basis of neutrality.
- Yet you equalise the positions of tyranical dictatorships and democratic countries while rejecting the UN resolutions. I see this as a violation of Misplaced Pages:DUE_WEIGHT and consider not to be taken into discussion at all. Unas964 (talk) 07:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I can't help but notice that the editor this complaint is concerned with, Cherkash, hasn't responded and hasn't edited on the project since January 12th and has barely edited in 2025 at all. What was the urgency in posting this complaint right now, Unas964? Liz 03:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Hamzajanah posting vanity hoaxes and general NOTHERE behaviour
WP:NOTHERE user is no longer here. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Hamzajanah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm really struggling with this new user. They have posted Draft:Hamza JanaH and Draft:Hamza janaH both autobiographies and both contained multiple hoaxes. They are continually using Misplaced Pages as a WP:SOAPBOX and violating WP:NOTWEBHOST too. They are constantly boasting about their wealth, see this diff for example. They claim to be a close associate of William J. Burns (diplomat), Christopher A. Wray and Bob Ferguson (politician). They are also misusing their own talk page. I have not seen one constructive edit and their filter log is one of the worst I've seen and also warns us of "persistent sockpuppetry". This is bordering on WP:NOTHERE already. Their ability to navigate Misplaced Pages suggests that they might have had previous accounts and might even be an LTA vandal but I can't think who it is. Spiderone 17:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- That filter is notoriously poor for detecting socks. I believe it was created with one sockmaster in mind, and yet based on how it functions (I'm not good at filters), comes up with many (mostly?) false positives.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think that that's a fair outcome. Thanks all. Spiderone 18:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Edward Myer
- Edward Myer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Edward Myer was recently blocked for two weeks, for creating a sock account to retaliate against myself and another AfC reviewer whose reviews they didn't like. (The socking was just the tip of the iceberg, there's much more to this as their talk page shows.) That block expired a few days ago, and since then they're back on the war footing, complaining and insinuating here, there and everywhere; as well as posting similar stuff on the talk pages of UtherSRG, 28bytes and AmandaNP. I think this needs to stop; for one thing it's a time sink, and I for one really don't care for the belligerence. I don't think I should be the one to indef them, as I'm involved, but I'd be grateful if someone did. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 18:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am not involved except insofar as I have declined Draft:Bruse Wane, but I saw their behaviour towards others and it made me consider whether I would make a review, especially to decline. A less resilient reviewer might well have avoided it.
- I confess that I am waiting for the invective, and I support DoubleGrazing's well measured request on that basis.
- My view is for one final attempt in case they are educable. If they are not then 'final' should mean 'indefinite editing restrictions' 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 18:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been WP:FORUMSHOPPING, . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at User:Edward Myer/sandbox. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. (talk) TiggerJay (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, the sandbox may have a better shot at acceptance! I aways believe in extending my good faith as far as possible. I have seen some remarkable turnarounds by doing so. Obviously there comes a point, but I am not wholly sure we are there yet. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- They have been WP:FORUMSHOPPING, . it seems like they simply dislike what many editors are saying. Previously blocked for sock activity. They also are also now actively editing a fork of the draft article over at User:Edward Myer/sandbox. Seems like they have been given plenty of changes to do the right thing. (talk) TiggerJay (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the initiative in filing this ANI, DG; I was || this close to filing it myself. This user just doesn't get it. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. Edward Myer (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- The above post is a duplicate of that posted at Help Desk. Schazjmd (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I reported I'm being cyber bullied. by certain admin, and now my sandbox Is being targeted for deletion. Guess my point is proven. Edward Myer (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Seems like a clear case of WP:NOTHERE and just wanting to push an article to mainspace and WP:IAR without even citing such. Sounds like a longer block may be necessary. TiggerJay (talk) 23:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Edward Myer, this is serious. Have you read over this complaint? Can you let this grudge go and go on to do some productive editing and let the past be the past? If you continue on this path, I don't see you editing on Misplaced Pages for the long term. This is a moment where you can choose to change your approach and turn around you time here as an editor. But it is up to your willingness to do so. Does that sound like something you can and want to do? Liz 02:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My field of expertise is Hip Hop. I do intend to do other articles on other subjects, and add relevant updates to current live articles. I'm here to be apart of the community and contribute to[REDACTED] in a specific field that I'm passionate about. I hold no grudge or ill will for no one. As I said to LiZ I had to get adjusted to how communication on[REDACTED] works. Edward Myer (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Before any action is taken, I have made a substantial offer of assistance to Edward Myer on their user talk page. I am no-one special to make the offer, and I would like us to take a little time to see if it can be effective before reaching any conclusion. I have had some success before with helping editors who are in pain here. The offer is in the spirit of my early post in this thread. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 07:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. Edward Myer (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We have started to work together. May I suggest respectfully that any other matters be set aside for the duration? They can always be returned to if deemed necessary. My hope is that editors will not feel it to be necessary. 🇺🇦 Fiddle Faddle 🇺🇦 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate your diplomacy and faith in me. Edward Myer (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- My concern is the sock. Edward Myer, do you promise never to sock again? GoodDay (talk) 14:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Please revoke TPA from JEIT BRANDS
Done. Black Kite (talk) 20:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- JEIT BRANDS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Talk page abuse, still spamming after block, please revoke TPA -Lemonaka 18:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Continual ECP-Violating Posts in WP:RUSUKR area by User_talk:Valentinianus_I
Blocked for a week. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- _Valentinianus I (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Valentinianus I is an editor with 80 edits as of the moment I'm writing this, the majority of edits made to WP:RUSUKR topics.
- As background, this editor was notified repeatedly by User:Mellk in August , and clarified . Melik again notified Valentinianus a month later in response to more edits that were not exempt , .
- Valentinianus was blocked for a few weeks in October until User:Rosguill unblocked them after giving benefit of the doubt. I'm only bringing this up because Rosguill, during the unblock reference notified Valentinianus that they would "like you to confirm that you've read and understand Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Russo-Ukrainian War#Remedies by identifying edits that you have made in violation of it, and how you will observe it going forward."
- User:Isabelle Belato notified Valentinianus on 1/18 that they were making inappropriate edits in violation of RUSUKR and was violating WP:BATTLEGROUND as well . Valentinianus replied that asking for a rename and calling for a subsequent rename vote were edit requests .
After that reply to Isabelle Belato (so that there is no question Valentinianus is aware of the latest warning), Valentinianus made five additional edits to Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine. None were remotely along the line of constructive edit requests, the problematic ones being to argue that a source is a "Ukrainian shill site" , a project complaint about the infobox , and WP:ASPERSIONS about the bad faith of the other editors on the talk page .
While in isolation, no individual edit is egregious, this editor has been warned several times about the limits of RUSUKR, and adding WP:BATTLEGROUNDS, WP:AGF , and WP:ASPERSIONS violations in this area to the number of WP:ECP violations, I believe an indefinite topic ban from WP:RUSUKR topics, broadly construed, is appropriate. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 19:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've just blocked them for a week instead. If they're ignoring the ECR restrictions, they'll just ignore a topic ban; that's because the reason they're ignoring the ECR restrictions is either WP:CIR or the fact that they don't care, and either would apply to a topic ban as well. Perhaps they'll get the message after this block, or perhaps they won't at which point we can look at further sanctions (which, let's face it, is likely to be an indef). Black Kite (talk) 20:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Just noting that the prior block before this was a sockpuppetry block, which I lifted as I found their explanation of how they came to make their edits plausible. The further editing since the unblock as outlined in the block actioned by Black Kite seems appropriate. signed, Rosguill 22:58, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are we looking at the same editor, CoffeeCrumbs? Rosguill never unblocked this editor but Beeblebrox did back in December. Liz 01:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's a few comments here that seem muldly disconnected from exactly what happened previous to this, but probably not to the point whee it changes the math on this latest block. Beeblebrox 02:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It appears I was unclear. I was quoting Rosguill's reminder about RUSUKR in the conversation about a possible unblock . My point wasn't about the block itself, but that the editor received an additional warning about their edits in that area. I missed including that specific diff. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 10:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User talk page access, Wiseguy012
I'm just going to close this. If Wiseguy012 returns and continues to rant or issues personal attacks, please return to ANI. Liz 04:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blocked user WiseGuy012 is using their talk page only for the purpose of continuing the rant that they got blocked for at Talk:Tagine and that they continued there as a sock account, Friend0113, which is also now blocked. See . Revoke user talk page access? Largoplazo (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, Largoplazo,
- There is no User:WiseGuy012 account. Did you mean someone else? Liz 01:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Wiseguy012, lower g. CMD (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks CMD. They are just ranting to themselves, not attacking anyone. An admin might come by, review this complaint and remove TPA but I don't find it egregious enough to act. Typically blocked editors can act like this right after they discover they've been blocked but then they move on and leave Misplaced Pages or they start creating sockpuppets and that's a bigger problem than a talk page rant. Too soon to tell right now. But it doesn't seem ANI-worthy to me. Liz 01:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- The things some people decide to get mad about.... What they posted on the talk page was a copyright violation in its entirety, so that's gone, and I've warned them for that and let them know further disruption of any kind will cause them to lose talk page access. Beeblebrox 01:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry about the G, and thanks for the guidance about the talk page access. Largoplazo (talk) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Still misuse of talk page for spamming. -Lemonaka 07:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That content was posted hours ago and was similar to what was reported here in the complaint. Liz 08:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Caste-based disruption
HistorianAlferedo has engaged in contentious WP:BATTLEGROUND style editing in the WP:CASTE related sanctioned topic area for quite sometime now. The user being repeatedly warned and clearly aware of these sanctions (evident from the removal of warning notices on their talk page) shows no signs of desisting. The editing pattern follows a faux concern of caste promotion by removing genuine well-sourced and known information all the while engaging in Rajput POV in multiple articles. That the editor isn't new is also evident from the fact that they can handedly cite obscure policies such as WP:RAJ (of course incorrectly and disingenously). Lisiting some particuarly egregious edits:
- , , , : deliberate insertion of incorrect wikilinks and false removals to obscure that the empresses were Rajput princesses
- : clearly falsifying an acronym (note the insertion of a dubious reference which nonetheless has nothing to do with the article subject)
- , , , , : POV caste-based insertions
- , : POV caste-based removals
This only a fraction of the tendentious edits in the user's topic warrior style editing related to Indian history and social groups. Not to mention the insertion of multiple non-RS refs when it suits the preferred POV while claiming to remove them in other articles. Considering the history, ediitng restrictions should follow in the form of a WP:CASTE t-ban or a general one till the user can show that they are not going to be in violation of enwiki policies anymore (all the more necessary considering the IP socking , ). Bringing this to ANI on advice of the editor themselves: . Gotitbro (talk) 11:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Gotitbro, you MUST notify the editor that you have posted this complaint. Please do so. Liz 21:10, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Done Gotitbro (talk) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Actually i was only editing and adding new information along with genuine citations. I had no motive for any sort of vandalism or anything else. Based on the knowledge about various topics of Indian history i was just trying to contribute in a positive way. Moreover some of the allegations by user Gotitbro are totally irrelevant, i’m not an indian but interested in the topics related to Indian history. New editors should be supported by the old ones and not demotivated with false allegations. Alright, if the old editors don’t want the new ones to contribute to[REDACTED] even in a good way then i’ll definitely even delete my account from wikipedia. Thank you HistorianAlferedo (talk) 08:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- HistorianAlferedo, I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. Liz 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay @Liz. Please have a look at pages: Ghiyath al-Din Tughluq and Firuz Shah Tughlaq, I added relevant information along with scholarly work sources but user:@Gotitbro just reverted all the changes without even looking at the correct citations. That’s why i thought now i won’t edit and visit[REDACTED] as few users here just try to show off their ranks, there are good wikipedians and administrators too but a few of them are doing this with the new contributors. Thank you HistorianAlferedo (talk) 15:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- HistorianAlferedo, I haven't looked into the edits here to issue an opinion on whether there is any validity to these accusations but disagreements are very common on a collaborative editing project like Misplaced Pages. I dare say there are no editors here who haven't gotten into their share of disputes. You can't let your experience with one editor color your opinion of the entire community. And, believe me, we have some "old editors" who can act like newbies at times. Consider each editor as an individual, not by any kind of rank. Liz 08:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
On-wiki hounding, off-wiki soliciting, and severe stalking by User:SerChevalerie
I wanted to let go this and move on, but considering my uncertain future with SerChevalerie, I had to take this to ANI.
To give a little background of the editing behavioural problems with the above mentioned editor, it started around late June 2024 when I made this edit . This was followed by his immediate reverts and significant edits . I had no problem with this, as this article was something wherein a third party editor had requested to expand it in a local Misplaced Pages WhatsApp group we were part of.
Both me and SerChevalerie were part of this WhatsApp group of Wikipedians from Goa. Having known each other online for over two years, and we shared the same native state. The problems arrived when he got back active on Misplaced Pages after a break of roughly 4 years and went on serious stalking my edits, the page I contributed, but mainly the pages that I created. As am In WP:Inclusionist and I love creating articles, but this was something he went overly critical on.
From June to August 2024, most of the edits SerChevalerie made were pertaining to the articles that I significantly worked on or created. During this, I was much subject to WP:HOUNDING on major of the articles I created such as Tsumyoki, you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just WP:BLUDGEON, arguing by citing essays like WP: 10YEARTEST instead of finding a resolution or just WP:DTS. It was until I finally took the decision to take it to WP:3O we reached a consensus after several days of discussion.
Over the course of some 30 articles that I created from June to August 2024, SerChevalerie has made edits which often times were seen as annoying and major stalking behaviour. He also likes to stay at the "top of the order" constantly as you can on articles such as Julião Menezes as per his latest "copyedit". During this period of two months almost entirely of his edits he has made were only pertaining to my articles.
When I had nominated his article Goa Revolution Day for SD, he then tried to solicit and I felt harrassed after he took his arguments to WhatsApp. Even after saying I don't want to discus this off-wiki he forced it upon me by confronting me in a group of 200-250 Wikipedians and having his arguments posted there. This is the same whatsapp group we were part of. And I have the relevant evidence with me.
SerChevalerie also has undisclosed COI with articles such creating and editing his grandfather's article significantly Gerald Pereira and a suspected COI paid editing on article like Subodh Kerkar. I have relevant evidence to support this claim. You can also check the latter's talk page where he claims that he "recreated" entirely on the article after it had some issues when it was created, see
He also seems to want a Misplaced Pages article on himself by using his connections and other Wikipedians to help him feature on the news (or possibly paid news) see here (Redacted). I find this featured article on him rather suspicious as it was published when SerChevalerie barely returned back to editing after 4 years.
When I had to quit Misplaced Pages for over 4 months due to my poor mental health because of him, he too wasn't very active on Misplaced Pages as he noticed I wasn't active anymore. You can check his edit history around the months of October and November this made me realise that SerChevalerie might have WP:OCD relating to my presence on Misplaced Pages itself. When I returned back to editing in early January this year, I made my first edit on the article J. C. Almeida. The next day he tries to repeat the same behaviour of stalking me and "staying on top" of the page. See . Please note that he didn't have any editing history on this page untill I edited it.
I still feel constantly watched by this editor everytime I am on Misplaced Pages. I want to propose to the community for a block on SerChevalerie or having placed WP:Sanctions on articles that I create so that he stops this behaviour. He also knows my real name and I don't want to get WP:Outed or doxxed by him as we both are from Goa, India. I'm afraid he might just get my residence address and does any harm. I just want to get rid of this issue and move on. Rejoy(talk) 11:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I haven't looked at everything, and especially not the off-wiki claims, but I get the impression the behavior issues may not be as one-sided as presented.
"During this, I was much subject to WP:HOUNDING on major of the articles I created such as Tsumyoki, you can check the lengthy talk page discussion we had as SerChevalerie would just WP:BLUDGEON, arguing by citing essays like WP: 10YEARTEST instead of finding a resolution or just WP:DTS."
- In this talk page you're both volleying policy pages, essays, and vague accusations at each other, but the concerns SerChevalerie raised about this article were not unfounded. It starts from something reasonable, and you both escalate at lightning speed.
- If I look at your interactions, I'm not sure I see the story of one-sided WP:HOUNDING. You both edit similar pages and regularly get into arguments.
- I don't see you trying to disengage with this user either, you've served him three different level 1 warning templates, now you're escalating to ANI with more inflammatory statements. If you're seriously worried about physical harm, please disregard this and rush to Misplaced Pages:Responding to threats of harm, but at least in the diffs you've linked, I don't see much credible threat of physical harm. Mlkj (talk) 14:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User:TTYDDoopliss and gender-related edits
Indeffed by Canterbury Tail EvergreenFir (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)I just wanted to add that TTYDDoopliss was found to be the sockpuppet of an editor many of us became familiar with last spring on ANI and the Teahouse. Liz 04:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- TTYDDoopliss (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Summary: Is there a non-male administrator willing to provide some guidance to this editor, particularly in edits related to gender?
The user in question is relatively new. (Yes, an early edit stated she had a previous account, but she used it for roughly one day in December 2024 before losing her password, and she had no warnings at all on the account, so abuse of multiple accounts does not apply here.
With her new account, she quickly received a message alerting her that gender is a contentious topic, so she is CTOPS/aware of gender issues. After which, she has made edits including:
- This sequence of edits to List of media notable for being in development hell:
- Edit summary: men don’t be utterly deprived and ruin women’s lives by being a sex pest challenge (don’t revert if you’re a man, you’re disgusting and I want nothing to do with you guys)
- Edit summary: Undid revision 1270571008 by C.Fred (talk) how many more women are going to be hurt by continuing to let men like this in the game industry
- To Dawn M. Bennett, removing an image with the edit summary she has cleavage, which means men will want to screw her if they see the image
- To her own user talk, removing a thread that included warnings with the edit summary please leave me alone, im trying to lessen my suffering as a woman in a male-dominated world
I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I concede her point that, generally speaking, men in the world have done and continue to do pretty crappy things to women. However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs, and IMO, some of her edits are even going counter to the viewpoint she holds. I also know that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social platform, and I worry that her behaviour, unchecked, will result in her crossing a line that gets her blocked, where an admin, regardless of gender, has to stop the disruption.
I'd like somebody to reach out to her to give her some advice before it gets to that point, and—while I generally think that any editor can do any job on Misplaced Pages regardless of gender—I think this a situation where a non-male or cisfemale administrator should be the one to make the contact. —C.Fred (talk) 15:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest that if there's any founded concerns a trans woman would get bitten in this hypothetical interaction then we should probably just WP:NOTHERE right now. However then I went and looked at the diffs in question and the discussion that was on the user's talk page and I have to ask: has anyone considered this might all be a troll? Simonm223 (talk) 15:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- perhaps my useful non-gender related edits might tip you off to the fact that im not a troll? here’s something non-gender related articles i fixed up: Monster-taming game, Cookie Run: Kingdom, Acer Aspire One Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:38, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think this is a straightforward WP:RGW or WP:NOTTHERAPY block. Misplaced Pages quite a number of women editors and they seem to be fine and don't seem to experience overt persecution. I just don't see how this user can reasonably be expected to collaborate with others, a core requirement of Misplaced Pages editing, if they're just going to accuse everyone else of being misogynists. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them removing mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, Poe's law in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TTYDDoopliss Hrm. So is the inference that you willingly and knowingly made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —C.Fred (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Honestly I don't think you're in any sort of distress at all. As I think, rather, that you are trolling Misplaced Pages and WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 18:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- again, I would take the topic ban over an indef any day. I have worth to bring here, and good intentions. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @TTYDDoopliss Hrm. So is the inference that you willingly and knowingly made those uncivil edits, so you should be at the least topic banned from gender issues, broadly construed, if not blocked indefinitely? —C.Fred (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- just because i don’t want women to be treated like sh*t doesn’t mean i deserve to be thrown in a psych ward, or that im in any sort of “distress”. does it look like im in distress right now? no, and I haven’t been. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, Poe's law in action. I think it's best to assume good faith that that this is a real person in serious mental distress rather than a troll though, though they should be blocked either way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah. It's the edits themselves not really matching up to the complaints in the edit summary that jumps out at me. Like two of the diffs are them removing mention to a man who was accused of sexual assault complaining that men must not revert the deletion because of misogyny. Another was removing a picture of an, honestly, modestly dressed woman in game development with a claim that it would make men horny. The discrepancy between what is being deleted and the justifications being given is rather striking. However whether this is a sincerely unwell person or a troll feigning distress, either way, I don't think this editor is here to write an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
benefit of the doubt
– Pardon me, but what doubt could there possibly be? EEng 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Surprised they weren't blocked after calling the vast majority of en.wiki contributors "nerdy men". EF 16:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- that’s… not an insult? just an observation Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL Simonm223 (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. EF 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. EF 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I go to the talk pages of articles, no one ever responds. I just operate over WP:BRD, it’s easier and takes less time. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- “Collaborate” being on talk pages, of course. EF 17:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, but we aren’t all “nerdy men”, albeit maybe a bit nerdy. Maybe that wasn’t the best example, but the point is I haven’t seem them collaborate constructively yet. EF 17:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I mean the shoe fits here. Any time I mention that I have editing[REDACTED] as a hobby I get called a nerd. LOL Simonm223 (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- that’s… not an insult? just an observation Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- i mean you requested “guidance”, everyone else is suggesting indef which is not what i had in mind when you left this here. id gladly take a gensex topic ban over never being able to edit ever again. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:32, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm suspecting trolling, here. GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for WP:CIVIL violations. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information about the exploitation caused by the games industry - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make women working in the games industry literally less visible, seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body
Be that as it may, leave that attitude at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- clearly you’ve never had a phobia, or OCD. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. Tarlby 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've already been told by Liz, so it's up to you now. Either acknowledge and take on the board the advice you have been given, or yes, you will likely be blocked. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Acknowledge that your past actions were wrong and disruptive, you promise to never do them again, and from here on contribute constructively. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make sure I don’t get indeffed? anything? because I want to edit here again in my lifetime Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- We're sorry for what you have to deal with, but that doesn't excuse disruption. It's unfortunate, but you need to find a way to adapt, or a block may come your way. Tarlby 19:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- clearly you’ve never had a phobia, or OCD. It’s not something you just… leave. But I won’t get into detail. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Okay, so leave that fear at the door when you edit Misplaced Pages and interact with other editors. Okay. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It’s not an “attitude” it’s a fear. There’s a difference. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- so you think I’m just making fun of feminists or something? do you think im pretending to be a woman and I’m actually an incel or some crap? what if I told you I have an extreme fear of men and being harmed by men, I’ve been plagued by this fear for months, and I socially isolate myself and don’t talk to men to gain control over my own body? But of course you won’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- See my concern, and why I and others are doubting Doopliss' sincerity, is edits like this - the edit summary may claim they're trying to protect women or correct misogyny but the end result is to remove information about the exploitation caused by the games industry - which, of course, has quite a lot of misogyny within it. These sorts of counter-productive edits make Doopliss' actions questionable. A combination of strident edit summaries regarding the dangers of misogyny with edits that make misogyny less visible in articles, that make women working in the games industry literally less visible, seem less like somebody feeling upset over misogyny and more like someone using tropes about feminism to disrupt Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you may be a net positive to the site, but you should be wary that any of your actions can get you blocked regardless. There have been plenty of cases where a user has done so much for Misplaced Pages, but their actions got them indef'ed, usually for WP:CIVIL violations. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 18:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I’ve made a lot of non-gender edits. I’m not here solely to make those kind of edits. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 17:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- TTYDDoopliss, I'll cut to the chase rather than participating in a debate over what your motivation is for some of your editing. I'm a female administrator and you've been brought to ANI. While this is sometimes done for frivolous reasons, for the most part, unless vandalism is occurring, complaints are brought here to resolve in order that harsher sanctions won't be necessary. It's an attempt to address problems before a block becomes necessary. There is a view that your glib messages asserting a POV regarding sexism or editors on this project are inappropriate and borderline unacceptable. Can you cease with the personal commentary here? Because if you can not, there will not be a third chance, my Misplaced Pages experience tells me that a block from editing of some duration will be coming your way. So, the choice is up to you at this point. Act professionally and not like Misplaced Pages is some kind of discussion forum, or have your editing privileges removed.
- And to reinforce this in case it needs to be emphasized, this is not about sexism or gender really, it's about NPOV and disruptive editing. You'd be getting a similar message if you were making side comments about politics, ethnicity, race or any other subjects that cross over into contentious subject areas. These are designated areas where sloppy editing and off-the-cuff comments are sanctioned if the editor can't control her/himself. From a nerdy female editor, Liz 18:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- is there any other way I can make Misplaced Pages a better place for women? How about a policy like WP:CHILDPROTECT but for women? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 18:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this edit. A perfectly normal picture of a woman was removed with a weird and offensively sexualised edit summary. I can't begin to stress how perfectly normal that picture is. There are two possibilities here. One is that this is anti-feminist trolling under a false flag but the other is that TTYDDoopliss is exactly what she claims to be and was genuinely triggered by a perfectly ordinary picture of a woman at an awards ceremony. If the later then she is clearly in no state to be able to edit Misplaced Pages at this time. Pictures like that turn up all over Misplaced Pages. If we have stronger evidence of deliberate trolling elsewhere then obviously that's an indef (of both the old and new accounts) but if that edit was made in good faith then I think a temporary block would be best for all concerned. It would give TTYDDoopliss an opportunity to come back later if she is well enough, and if she wants to, of course. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's this which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- What we would expect is to find WP:MEDRS compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in WP:OR in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And, exacerbating this, you were already engaged here with people raising concerns about your widespread disruptive editing, which had been explained to you, before you made this edit. Which makes it quite deliberated disruption. Simonm223 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- What we would expect is to find WP:MEDRS compliant sources to demonstrate that rather than a person engaging in WP:OR in a way that leads to a statement contradicted by its own reliable citation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- because there’s no such thing as “women/men are affected more often” it’s 100% gender bias.male researchers assign depression, anxiety, ocd, and BPD to women because they are seen as neurotic and hysterical. they assign adhd, autism and npd to men because it fits them being nerdy, socially awkward and perverted. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- OK. Now I'm looking at this edit and that does seem a lot more like trolling. The edit summary sounds like an anti-feminist parody of a feminist and the actual edit is to remove coverage of an alleged sex offender. Given that sexual misconduct is a serious issue in the video games industry it seems implausible that even the most misguided feminist would try to cover it up. I know that mental illness can express itself in many ways but... I just don't buy it. DanielRigal (talk) 19:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I removed it because it made me upset.
What? Have you read WP:NPOV and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS? The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:24, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just WP:TROLLING, a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- fine ill shut up now Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Weren't you the one who wanted to NOT get indeffed 10 minutes ago? Whether you have legitimate feelings about this or you are just WP:TROLLING, a block is coming soon if you continue with this behavior. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes. Having intense coverage of SA accusations will only fuel men more to hurt us and use us. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit also looks like parody. Simonm223 (talk) 19:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the male protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one said or implied any such thing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don't exist to fulfill men's needs. That is very true. However desire for a partner can certainly be part of a character's motivation. Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- No one said or implied any such thing. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit actually takes a WP:MEDRS cited statement and rewrites it to say something that the RS did not say not once but twice. In addition, there is the claim that erasing sexual orientation as a possible subject of obsessive and compulsive ideation is somehow reducing heteronormative bias. Which is somewhat contrary to what I would expect from a sincere feminist editor. Simonm223 (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This edit is somewhat better than average. At least the source says, "Insofar as they affect women, bromances, when taken in conjunction with monogamous heterosexual relationships, decrease the burden on women to provide all the care work for their partners."
- However "all the care work" is paraphrased by Doopliss to "The increasing tolerance of bromances relives pressure on women to be emotionally intimate with men," which is... not... the same thing. But at least I can look at the source, look at the statement and draw a line between them, however tenuous. Simonm223 (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, this too supports my "troll" hypothesis since the very next paragraph of the Chen source begins "Bromances reinforce gender hierarchy, bolster marriage as the goveming, archetypal intimate relationship, and normalize homophobia." So we have an article crtical of bromance being used to praise it for getting men out of womens' hair. Simonm223 (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Women don’t exist to fulfill men’s needs. I’m sorry. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:36, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also led to a bit of revert action with the claim that noting the character's motivation included desire for a girlfriend was "dehumanizing". Hilariously this is about a comic in which the male protagonist is resurrected as a non-gendered non-human. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I removed it because it made me upset. I KNOW it is a huge problem. I don’t even feel safe being in the public eye of any man. I don’t feel safe having ANY job knowing that im just gonna get assaulted by a man and HR won’t do anything and I will be traumatized for the rest of my life. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- There's this which was made long after people started warning her that such edits were disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's clear some form of block is necessary now. Tarlby 19:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Because you have disrupted multiple topics. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And that's it. That's the proof that we are being played. An inexperienced user would not be advocating for a topic ban. An inexperienced user would not even know what a topic ban was. This is probably a Gamergate dead-ender yanking our chains. DanielRigal (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd suggest a checkuser but what's the point? They are going to get blocked anyway. DanielRigal (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I know what a topic ban is because I’ve lurked on pages like AN/I before. I’ve been browsing back-end Misplaced Pages pages for years. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:47, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make you guys believe me? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That ship has sailed. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- what can I do to make you guys believe me? Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right. We don't believe you AT ALL. Why, you ask? This whole ANI thread. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- And I don’t even know what a “dead-ender” is. You guys think im an incel in disguise when i hate incels with a burning passion. But of course, you guys don’t believe me. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- why? how? why not a topic ban or something? PLEASE don’t kick me out. Doopliss (she) 👻 | Creepy Steeple 🏚️ 19:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and blocked them. It's clear we're being trolled. They're not only offensively characterising men, they're offensively characterising women and people with mental illnesses. Thay also can't keep their own lies and beliefs straight. We're done here. Canterbury Tail talk 20:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Proposal: Indefinite block
For disruptive editing and failure to get the point. I propose that TTYDDoopliss be indefintely blocked. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support Per nom. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. Even if they are what they claim to be there is nothing for them here. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support. In addition, WP:NOTTHERAPY and WP:BATTLEGROUND. - The literary leader of the age ✉ 19:43, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support For the reasons and multitudinous diffs cited above I believe this whole dog and pony show is a troll. WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Simonm223 (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per above. I don't mean to be rude, but Wikipedians are a diverse bunch, and some of us are bound to be male. If you can't work collaboratively, you can't work at all. EF 19:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support because as I said before, whether this user has legitimate intentions behind these edits or is just WP:TROLLING, their disruptive editing and refusal to acknowledge their actions shows me that they are WP:NOTHERE. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 19:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nom Tarlby 19:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support Per Nom. The way she characterizes certain mental illnesses is untrue and frankly beyond offensive. Insanityclown1 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support - I believe we're being trolled. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nomination - I had initial sympathy but it's just trolling. qcne (talk) 20:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Good block by CT. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Support: TTYDDoopliss asked, several times over, what she could do to avoid a general block. Over and over again, she refused to respond in the one way that would have helped her: by saying that she'd clean up her act and stop dumping her own issues onto this site. Even if we weren't being trolled, any time an IDHT person gets cbanned, an angel gets its wings. Ravenswing 21:45, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Toa_Nidhiki05: WP:OWN and WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour.
Toa Nidhiki05 has been guarding the hell out of the Republican Party (United States). They instantly revert any change against the status quo that they don't like, citing a need for consensus, then don't actually engage with discussions around those edits except to call for moratoriums on even talking about them while spewing bad faith assumptions, or trying to wikilawyer away disagreements. I'm not a long term editor at Republican Party (United States) and, frankly, don't want to be, but in the limited number of days I've been editing on this it's clearly an issue.
(The main thing I'm trying to draw attention to in those diffs is the declaration that an edit "will not be made'. Please see below before taking claims of local consensus at face value)
Most recently he decided to just blanket slander multiple editors who disagree with him while again calling for a moratorium on changes he doesn't like. diff
More specifically this line:
Rather than persuade editors, it seems editors are attempting to force these changes through.
(right below an entire thread that was made before a controversial change specifically to discuss said change)
I feel this last one is the most important, because it highlights a pattern of what's been going on here: Toa telling editors a local consensus has been reached, and that they're free to read back, and then citing their own requests obliquely as if they're others ("or called for a moratorium on changes
") and, most importantly, creating an in-group of who is allowed to weigh in on article content (Only one active discussion-engaged user
). Other editors, like @Cortador, have been calling them out for this as well.
Note, actually doing what Toa asks and looking back through old talk page discussions on this largely results in finding Toa telling people the same thing then, too.
There's a content dispute under-riding most of this, which frankly is probably best adjudicated at this point by literally anyone other than Toa or myself. The meat of this ANI is wholly independent of the content dispute, except insofar as Toa's apparently not been engaging in the most NPOV way with editors when it comes to sourcing requirements. I want to point out that despite Toa's reality-bending insistence I've been pretty open to admitting a different proposal for a change from others was better than my own idea. In an attempt to placate his revert-happy self on what I was sure would be controversial (removing 'conservative' from the dominant ideology of the party) I started by making a discussion thread highlighting that the sources that were being used didn't make that claim, including direct quotes from the papers. Except for admonishing editors for wanting change, he's mostly elected to just straight up ignore any substantive discussion over the exact thing he's reverting. This is clearly OWN and POV editing, and it looks like previous attempts to caution him for edit warring were met with 'Are you fucking kidding me.'. I'd honestly like to bow out of editing that page entirely for a while for so many reasons, but I don't want to leave it in a state where one editor has declared an article theirs. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
The page-in-question should be stable & at status quo. Best to work out content disputes on the page-in-questions' talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 15:44, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think that the content dispute should be decided here. To be clear, 99% of the content dispute is moving one sentence earlier in the article and removing a source that failed verification. We're not talking about seeing how fast we can invoke Godwin's Law in a page about the GOP (though admittedly some editors are). I genuinely don't think the content in question actually substantial at all, which is why one editor increasingly spiralling into mudslinging over it while refusing to discuss changes beyond categorical rejection or highly mobile goalposts for inclusion is a problem. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I am out of town, and don't have time to reply fully to all of this. But the general dispute ongoing at the page is twofold: Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right", and they want "conservatism" to be removed as a majority faction. There doesn't appear to be support for either of these things (an ongoing RfC on the "far-right" designation is trending a pretty strong consensus in opposition, and removing conservatism appears to be equally unlikely to reach consensus). This is a content dispute involving, at this point, probably at least a dozen editors, and should be resolved on the page.
- What Warrenmck does not seem to understand is that changing political positions on pages is something that comes up all the time. None of the arguments presented have been new, and a local consensus has been developed with the collaboration of many editors. This took a lot of hard work and compromise to reach.
- For editors like myself - who worked on the present consensus versions - this is not a fresh, new discussion. It's more or less an endless string of discussions that have been ongoing for years. This is why several other editors - not just myself (and I'm not even the one who came up with the idea - that was Czello. I was actually the third to support one) have supported a moratorium on said discussions. There is nothing wrong with discussing a moratorium on repetitive topics that repeatedly emerge on talk pages.
- I will also note that, I have not, in fact, blindly opposed any changes to the article. I did not object when “right-wing populism” was added as a majority faction; I didn’t even participate in the discussion, iirc, because it was such an obvious changed. And in this discussion I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes. It goes without saying that the article is not mine, I have never claimed it is mine, and I have no interest in subverting or going against whatever consensus is reached through talk page discussions, rather than brute force. Toa Nidhiki05 15:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Once again, what I was calling for was including "far right" as a minor faction, per the an absolute ocean of reliable sources. Even you explicitly stated in the RfC it's a minor ideology. You've accused me of wanting to make the page about the republicans being far right multiple times now, and the only time you've responded to me saying that 's not what I'm doing here was to say that having it on the page at all slanders the party as that
Except the RfC isn’t about labelling the party far right, it’s about naming it as a minor ideology, which you here acknowledge?
- and you responded
Which is labeling the party as it.
- Which isn't how NPOV editing works.
- Beyond that I simply don't believe that Toa is accurately representing the discussions that are there now or the historical discussions around local consensus.
I will also note that, I have not, in fact, opposed any changes. In fact, I've added additional citations to address Warrenmck's concerns. However, what they want does not appear to be more sources, but instead their preferred changes
- Please, any admin reading this exact quoted line, immediately go look at Toa's engagement on this exact point here. Toa added a source paper, I read the source paper, removed it because it simply didn't make the claim it was being used to make, and instantly started a discussion thread asking for sources and explicitly explaining my removal. I did not make the change I knew would be controversial, that was a different editor later. I also quoted the specific line in the paper which discussed why it wasn't an approprioate source for the claim it was being used for in my removal (diff) Which Toa almost completely ignored. This is simply not an accurate recounting of events.
- This is why I think this is an ANI issue. Toa routinely misrepresents or overstates consensus and historical discussions, while running off editors who don't agree, then claiming that only the long term editors should have a meaningful say. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Please find a time where I said you “want to make the page about the Republicans being far right”. I don’t believe I’ve ever said that. I have said you clearly have strong views about the subject, though.
- What you are referencing was a typo. Notice that it’s not even a complete sentence? Toa Nidhiki05 16:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Literally in this ANI:
Warrenmck wants the page to define the party in the inbox as "far-right"
- That is not the same thing as defining far-right as a minor ideology of the party. Also from the talk page:
Its exclusion is not odd, as academic sources do not widely or generally or even often refer to the party as far-right, which is typically associated with literal fascism or Nazism. Believe it or not, this has been discussed dozens of times - including several in the last few months - and editors have reached a consensus that academic sources broadly refer to the party as center-right or right-wing.
Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- You are making a distinction without a difference. Toa Nidhiki05 16:26, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Involved: These are content disputes and should be dealt with at that level. Springee (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Toa_Nidhiki05 appears to have been exceedingly cordial and professional in the differences you provided above. I see no wrongdoing on their part. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I cannot disagree, except I think that speaking authoritatively about how a change will not be done regardless of sources provided simply breaks WP:OWN:
An editor reverts a change simply because the editor finds it "unnecessary" without claiming that the change is detrimental. This has the effect of assigning priority, between two equivalent versions, to an owner's version.
- The other problem is that the consensus they're pointing to doesn't seem to substantially exist. There's an abundance of "go see the old discussions" which themselves say "go see the old discussions" and so on. It's artificial, and it's being used to prevent edits that users don't like, as opposed to edits they can substantively object to. Seriously, just look at his presentation of these previous discussions here and go back in the archives. While I'm sure there were discussions at some (possibly many) points, there's a hell of a lot of reliable sources being objected to there on a house of cards.
- Additionally, I think that's masking the fact that they're simply refusing to engage editors while reverting the article to the status quo. They're basically holding the article hostage by pointing people to an ongoing discussion they're not engaging in (diff, or on the talk pages with "see previous discussion" as a threadkiller). So the choice editors are left with is to edit war over an inclusion, or give up. The issue isn't that there's a content dispute here, it's that someone has WP:WIKILAWYERed their way into objecting to a specific edit on an ongoing basis, always maintaining a layer of "content dispute". As Cortador said,
"Do you have a content-based case to make here or do you just declare editor's contributions to be "low quality" if you disagree with them?"
Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)- It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place after I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer WP:CPUSH problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an WP:OWN mentality. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Springee appears to be actively involved in this, and there's comments on their guarding against "far right" in the article going back at least two years of the same argumentation pattern and misrepresenting sourcing requirements and consensus. diff diff diff and diff. I agree this seems more like a CPUSH. For example, this was directed at Springee from the last diff:
The same failed arguments have been made in several similar discussions of late
- Basically, the patten we're seeing at Republican Party (United States) appears to be ongoing with several of the key users objecting to changes on identical grounds year after year without ever really explaining why these aren't open for discussion in light of sourcing standards. @The Four Deuces appears to be engaging in an identical pattern in many of the same articles. TFD, Toa, and Springee show up all over[REDACTED] making the same tortured arguments around academic sourcing and consensus when someone mentions "far-right" in an article. Every single time it's a complete slamming of the door of the possibility that RS could ever be met for the inclusion of information they deem controversial. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 13:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. Springee (talk) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, being vague wasn't my intention. I think you're engaging in the same CPUSH behaviour as Toa, just maintaining civility much better. It's possible to find years worth of identical argumentation from you on this across many articles, always with the same anything-other-than-excluding-content-is-unacceptable, and above you're continuing the relatively nonsensical arguments from Toa with Simonm223 in asking for unique sourcing standards for a claim you really don't like. You pick this fight very consistently on Misplaced Pages, usually with the same arguments.
- If I'm way out of line here I'm fine accepting a boomerang, but I see several editors going way off the deep end in trying to prevent a very specific change to articles on Misplaced Pages that seems to be coming from a place of stonewalling diff diff Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I hope my arguments have been consistent because I try to pay strict adherence to content policy and guidelines. TFD (talk) 17:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how I'm supposed to reply to a vague accusation. Springee (talk) 14:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- When I recently provided academic sources I was informed that A) Anything associating the Republicans with the alt-right should be automatically treated as unreliable and B) that far-right should not be added unless it could be demonstrated that there is a clear consensus of all RS regarding it. I should mention that this requirement was put in place after I disclosed that Google Scholar has 53,000 entries for the search string "republican party far-right". IE: the idea of cross-referencing everything is patently absurd. So, yes, there aer WP:CPUSH problems at that page. That said I think they're significantly more complicated than a single editor acting with an WP:OWN mentality. Simonm223 (talk) 17:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It’s worth pointing out that Toa repeated an argument that the “far-right” claim hadn’t been made by academic sources as the core of the prior consensus while ardently refusing to respond to several editors providing academic sources. Civility can mask sealioning. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Accusing other editors of making "low quality" edits instead of making an argument isn't helpful or professional, and neither is demanding a unique standard for edits one is opposed to. Cortador (talk) 17:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This is a content dispute and should be discussed on the article. This discussion should be closed. Nemov (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Respectfully WP:CPUSH and WP:SEALION are behavioural problems. Simonm223 (talk) 20:18, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a comment, Toa’s response to multiple users adding failed verification tag was to go tag all the sources making a political claim they don’t like as failing verification en masse (diff).
- while these all on their own may be legitimate tags (though other editors have been removing some tags as apparently they did pass verification) I think taking this in the context of them actually refusing to discuss the failed verification tag that lead to this spree at all makes this pretty WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour to me. If Toa wants to discuss bad edits, that’s good and fine. But they can’t have a policy of using bad edits from other people to deflect from any discussion around edits they themselves feel are valid. Apparently he doesn't have enough time to fully engage with this ANI or any of the discussions around his own edits, but does have enough time to read dozens of articles and point by point articulate his issue with each over at the talk page for Republican Party (United States). Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 08:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: Toa was TBANed for this exact behaviour in 2022. The reason given at the time was
Toa Nidhiki05's participation in these two discussions (Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Voter rights in the body and Talk:Republican Party (United States) § Add a wikilink at the top of the Voting rights section) amounts to nothing less than disruptive editing and has the effect of stonewalling their progress. There is seemingly no condition under which they would accept this edit resulting from the second dispute, regardless of any baseis in Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, and which appears to already have a rough consensus in favor of it.
- This is the same pattern of behaviour he's accused of here, for the same thing, and that resulted in an indefinite TBAN. Springee and TFD are again involved there, as well. This should make it pretty clear that, civility aside, this is a problem. A long, ongoing one. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to WP:AE more than WP:AN/I. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Honestly I agree having seen more of this being a systematic issue since making this ANI. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Perhaps the issue is that good faith editor don't agree. A failure to get consensus to add a controversial claim is hardly proof of CPUSH. Additionally as the number of accused editors goes up it looks more like a true content dispute vs a single editor problem. I will also note that Toa has done quite a bit to review some of the references used to support the disputed changes and makes a good case that they don't support the claims within the edits being pushed into the article. Springee (talk) 14:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. Simonm223 (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy.
- And very clearly retaliatory. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 14:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings. Per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article". If the source does not back up the cited claim, it shouldn't be used. This is... pretty ordinary stuff, actually.
- You'll notice I did not remove the broader claims, or change the in-article text. All I have done is trim sources that do not back up the claim given, which is something Misplaced Pages citations are required to do. If you reaction to a source review that results in no changes to prose is to file a report rather than discuss, challenge, or revert, you might have a hard time being successful with that. Toa Nidhiki05 15:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
You're more than welcome to comment on or undo the source review, if you disagree with my findings
- Would you please provide the diff where you substantively responded to a thread made directly about a source you added not passing verification, which you were pinged in and did actually participate without addressing the substance of? Because that would go a long way towards convincing me this isn't a smokescreen of policy to mask more sealioning in a thin veneer of civility and plausible deniability. How about addressing any of the comments providing the exact types of sources you were asked for? When I did provide a reason and eventually reverted your addition, you just reverted with "nah it didn't fail verification" ignoring both the edit summary prior and the entire talk page discussion about the entire situation. As I said there, neither I nor any other editor personally needs to run improvements on the article through you, personally. If you object without engaging or explaining, it's perfectly reasonable for editors to simply ignore your perspectives. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. Toa Nidhiki05 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No. The content dispute isn't the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I don't agree with Springee about some of their interpretations of appropriate content but I don't think their comportment is problematic except in as far as it gives cover to yours. Rather it's two things: how you insist sources should be interpreted and how you engage with other editors that has become disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 15:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The diff I asked for had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with you attempting to paint other editors as sidestepping a process you yourself have refused to engage in as a matter of policy, apparently going back far enough for you to have already received an indef TBAN for the exact same behaviour. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As multiple other users have said above: this is a content dispute. I'll be more than happy to talk on the talk page, but I'm not going to be litigating a content dispute here at AN/I any further. Toa Nidhiki05 15:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- As a perfect example, in this diff they claim that the New York Times piece does not support referring to the Republican party as right-wing populist.
This is because it says that the party isn't just a touch more populist. It then compares the Republican party under Trump to the racist populist George Wallace and the fascist propagandist Father Coughlin. This, to me, is more than sufficient to support "right-wing populism" but, because the article uses simile, Toa Nidhiki05 calls it a "Gish Gallop".Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Ok here's the correct quote now:
The overarching pattern is clear. In election after election, Democrats underperformed among traditional Democratic constituencies during the Trump era. Sometimes, it was merely a failure to capitalize on his unpopularity. Other times, it was a staggering decline in support. Together, it has shattered Democratic dreams of building a new majority with the rise of a new generation of young and nonwhite voters.
This overarching pattern requires an overarching explanation: Mr. Trump’s populist conservatism corroded the foundations of the Democratic Party’s appeal. It tapped into many of the issues and themes that once made these voters Democrats.
While the damage was mostly concealed by Mr. Trump’s unpopularity, the backlash to his norm-shattering presidency drew the Democratic Party even further from its traditional roots. The extent of that damage is now clear. - Now this article does compare the Democratic party as a whole to Trump on a purely linguistic level. However context matters here. The first line of the article is
It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it.
The NYT has as table-stakes that the Republicans were transformed by Trump. In this context I think it's a reasonable argument that "Trump" here is a stand-in for the party of Trump. Simonm223 (talk) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- Also, the New York Times introduces the article by saying, "Nate Cohn, The Times’s chief political analyst, makes sense of the latest political data." Editorial and opinion commentary says, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." Therefore this is not an acceptable source.
- It disruptive that so many unreliable sources have been presented in the discussion pages. It wastes edtiors' time as they discuss sources that cannot be used.
- My suggestion is that going forward, unreliable sources that are presented should be struck out and editors who persist in presenting them should face sanctions. That will allow editors to focus on what reliable sources say. TFD (talk) 16:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what WP:RSEDITORIAL says
When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.
Simonm223 (talk) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- In this case the author is a journalist with a BA in politics IOW he has the same background one would expect for the writer of an analysis in a newspaper. Furthermore, when policy says that this type of source is "rarely reliable," the onus is on the person presenting it to explain why it should be deemed reliable. TFD (talk) 17:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- That's an inappropriate request for this venue. I would suggest such a significant punitive action would require the full weight of an arbitration case to be enacted. Furthermore an statistical analyst working for a reliable publication, interpreting statistics, is rather different from a straightforward op-ed. Remember what WP:RSEDITORIAL says
- Ok here's the correct quote now:
- Their source review is, if I assume good faith, rushed and sloppy. They have been reverting material that is reliably sourced and then calling said sources a "Gish Gallop." Furthermore they have ignored the multitudinous reliable sources I've mentioned at article talk and, frankly, seem reticent to actually have a discussion rather than simply making pronouncements at article talk. A complaint, I will note, I do not have with your comportment despite my characterization of this problem as broader than just one editor. Simonm223 (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was kind of hinting above with my "there is a problem but it's more complicated than just Toa Nidhiki05" that I thought this whole situation might be relevant to WP:AE more than WP:AN/I. Oh well, it's here now, but I would suggest that if we aren't able to resolve the issues going on at that page here then it will likely end up at AE in short order. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page. Maybe it would be best if editors heavily involved there, would avoid each other & allow newcomers room to give their input. Might lower the heat. GoodDay (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Presuming this is related to an ongoing RfC at the Republican Party page.
- It isn't, for what it's worth. It's about a consistent pattern of behaviours going back years that came out, mostly, in the thread after the RfC, though partially there as well. Beyond that, good call. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Is this the type of report that would be better addressed at WP:AE? ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Frankly, probably? I misjudged how long this had been going on and the scale of it. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 17:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think it would be better suited to AE except that it's here now and AE tends not to like having an issue open at two venues. Simonm223 (talk) 17:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't see why you consider this a behavioral issue rather than a content dispute. I follow a lot of articles that attract editors with fringe views: fascism is left-wing, cultural marxism and Jewish bolshevism are not just conspiracy theories, aspartame is dangerous, climate science is unsettled, etc. Some editors explain why these views are wrong, while others point to previous discussions.
- If anyone should be banned, it isn't editors who insist that articles reflect reliable sources, but editors who try to inject fringe theories unsupported by reliable sources.
- On your user page, you mention that you have written peer-reviewed articles in geophysics and vulcanology. Certainly you would not rely on an analysis by a journalist as reliable in those papers. For example, you would not use it for explaining why a particular volcano erupted. TFD (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Whatever standards volcanologists demand from academic papers isn't relevant here, or anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has its own standards for reliable sourcing. You can, of course, challenge those, but the place for that is the sources noticeboard. Cortador (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
If I am following this properly, via the thread on the linked talk page:
- The OP made a thread on Talk:Republican Party (United States) saying that we should change the article to say that it was "anti-intellectual" and "far-right".
- Toa_Nidhiki05 said that this was a bad idea, and some stuff about previous consensus against doing this.
- ???
- AN/I thread
Is there anything I'm missing here? jp×g🗯️ 21:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sealioning, a previous TBAN for identical behaviour, and multiple editors weighing in saying this is a CPUSH issue? Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You've said I'm guilty of sealioning three times in this thread, but as far as I can tell you haven't actually defined what you think that means, or what I've done. It's a pretty specific set of behavior - can you explain what I've done that qualifies as sealioning?
- But to answer JPxG: yeah, that's essentially it. Like I said above, it doesn't look like either of Warrenmck's proposed changes will make it into the article, and I'm surprised this content dispute hasn't been closed yet. Toa Nidhiki05 23:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Repeated WP:GS/AA violations
On 26 October 2024, I informed User:Scherbatsky12 about the WP:GS/AA extended confirmed restriction and explained what it meant.
Scherbatsky12 still created several articles or made expansions in areas covered by WP:GS/AA such as the following: Ibrahim Rahimov, Hokuma Aliyeva, Khalil Rza Uluturk, and made poorly sourced POV additions such as:
Not only Scherbatsky12 was aware about, and even deleted the GS/AA notice , they still made several articles in its violation regardless and made GS/AA breaching additions that also include POV poorly sourced edits. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Even after this report, Scherbatsky12 still continues violating the extended confirmed restriction . KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given them a final warning on the matter. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @The Bushranger thank you, but aren't we over a warning here? I've already left a notice on their talk back in October and explained what it meant. They still violated the restriction numerous times and even violated again just hours ago after this report. The WP:AA3 topic area has stricter rules enforcement than most other topics, and the behavior of Scherbatsky12 isn't encouraging. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Given them a final warning on the matter. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Caribbean Hindustani
This is probably not the appropriate page, but I couldn't find a better one. If an admin may have a look at the version history of the Caribbean Hindustani article - there's two quite new editors battling out a dispute since December. Maybe some administrative guidance would help them. Thanks and kind regards, Grueslayer 18:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per the notice at the top of this page, you were supposed to alert both editors of this thread. I've done so for you. Tarlby 18:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This: , may or may not be helpful. I'd also add that I can't force someone to discuss something on the talkpage: Hermes Express (talk) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- That would make sense if you'd tried discussing on the talk page, but you didn't head there until Tarbly asked you to. You can't force someone to discuss something but you can try discussing which you haven't done until now. Expecting the other party to start a discussion is rarely good editor behaviour especially when you are edit warring. Instead it's like a lame kids 'they started it' defence. The only way you can prove an editor refuses to discuss on the talk page is by trying otherwise you can both be counted as refusing to discuss. To be clear except the first sentence, this applies to both of you. Nil Einne (talk) 00:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have added several sources and journel and official government and NGO sites that work on it to prove what I am writing. But that user dont have source to prove it and its just his opinion which he had written.
- He also wrote his opinion on Hindustani page which got removed by the admin as it was false information but the same thing when I added on caribbean Hindustani page, he reverted my changes. If writing opinion as a fact and that too without any source and also the source provided dont match with the information.
- I had talk with the user and explained several times in the edit and on talk page as well. I have explained everything which I added with source unlike him. Adrikshit (talk) 04:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Potential block evasion by IP 211.184.93.253 (old IP 58.235.154.8)
Blocks guaranteed. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The IP 58.235.154.8 was banned on December 29, 2024 (6 month block duration) for disruptive editing. To be specific, they would write in a delay of a Starship launch by exactly one month, without any citations.
They had been banned before (two month ban) for the same behaviour.
A few examples that I sourced in my report of 58.235.154.8:
IP 211.184.93.253 is now repeating this pattern, in what appears to be block-evasion.
Out of the five edits made by this IP:
Made before 58.235.154.8 ban, changed Flight 8 launch date from Early 2025 to February 2025. Doesn't add a source.
Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches from February 2025 to March 2025. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 on List of Starship launches, again from February to March. No source added.
Delays Flight 8 from February to March on dedicated article. No source added.
This is either a similarly disruptive editor, or more likely, a ban evader continuing their vandalism. Either way, they are not here to improve Misplaced Pages. Redacted II (talk) 19:04, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Additionally, geolocate places both IP addresses in the same region, which makes it quite likely that they are evading a ban.
- Geolocate 1
- Geolocate 2 Redacted II (talk) 19:08, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. Liz 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. Redacted II (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:RPP Rusalkii (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! Redacted II (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC) (added after discussion close)
- WP:RPP Rusalkii (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I honestly cannot remember where to go for that. Redacted II (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting together such an easy to follow report. I've blocked them for the same length of time as their original IP account. If this becomes a habit, it might be easier to semi-protect certain articles temporarily. You probably know where to go to request that action to be taken. Liz 20:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Danny5784
Danny5784 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) does not seem to have the maturity and judgement to be a productive editor. Despite a litany of talk page warnings and efforts by multiple editors to explain things to them, they are continuing to create unneeded pages. Of the 18 articles they've created, 9 have been redirected (mostly at AfD), 2 deleted, and 4 currently have unanimous delete/redirect consensus at AfD. Three of their most recent creations are particularly noteworthy:
- After Draft:New Jersey Transit 6539-6549 was declined by Stuartyeates, and I warned them that such pages are not notable, Danny5784 created it anyway.
- Danny5784 created NJ Transit bus garages with poor sourcing, much of it from a user-generated wiki. After Djflem wrangled it into a useful list, Danny5784 created both New Jersey Transit bus garages and NJ Transit Bus Garage Fleet/Routes apparently as content forks.
Danny5784 also has issues with copyright: they uploaded a large number of now-deleted files on Commons and seem unwilling to actually obtain verifiable permission, then did the exact same thing here, plus using blatantly false non-free content criteria.
With 460 edits over 15 months, Danny5784 is past the point where these can just be dismissed as newbie mistakes. They are a rather young editor who is unwilling or unable to follow basic norms such as notability, reliable sourcing, and copyright. Until they demonstrate more maturity, I believe a prohibition from page creation (article, template, and file upload) is needed. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- Incorrect and no. No prohibition is necessary. You would need to teach and show him how it is done.
- Don't even try to prohibit him. Over 15 months of editing, you still don't even accept it?! What is wrong with you? Your more stricter than high school so, knock it off and NO PROBITION! And also, he's trying his best to do it right. Toyota683 (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear
Confirmed result.-- Ponyo 23:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - The Bushranger One ping only 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem, ever, with unarchiving, The Bushranger. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. Liz 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I just try to help run a clean ship. And no worries! As far as I can tell the template's working, but will leave this unhatted given that. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:26, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No problem, ever, with unarchiving, The Bushranger. Lately, you've been the most frequent archiver on this noticeboard so I bow to your expertise. I did see a "Show" link but I clicked and clicked and the content didn't open up. Maybe my laptop is low on memory and if it's my issue then I apologize. I thought there was a problem with the "hat" template. Liz 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Liz: I've unarchived this, as the original report wasn't resolved - the socking was an entirely seperate surprise. As for the hatting (per your edit summary) - you don't see a "show" button on the far right side of the hatted content box? - The Bushranger One ping only 02:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was in the process of making a report via twinkle, no need to do so now, lol. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- This looked so obvious I thought it could be a joe job, but it's a clear
- I've already blocked the sock and Danny for 1 week for socking. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- It also looks like there is obvious socking going on. Toyota has since account creation only been used to support Danny. Creating SPI. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
- As the editor who declined the article above at AfC, I'd encourage admins to shepherd young newbies towards AfC and similar venues. It's what we're hear for (if anything I should have given better comments in my decline). Stuartyeates (talk) 08:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Clerical note that this user is not the similarly named DannyS712. jp×g🗯️ 21:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
User LivinAWestLife vandalizing Republican Party article
LivinAWestLife made a large change to the Republican Party article which changed the ideology of the party from the consensus Center-right to fascist. They quickly then changed the text to "far-right" . Any seasoned editor should know such behavior is beyond reckless and clearly disruptive. Springee (talk) 00:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back. LivinAWestLife (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vandalism is vandalism and is not funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a very low tolerance for trolls, especially in contentious topics. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that there are jokes, and then there are "oh hell no" situations. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- There are several people who feel the current discussion of political ideology of the Republican party is non-neutral. Disruptive drive-by edits actually make correcting such problems harder rather than easier. So please stop. Simonm223 (talk) 12:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also worth noting that there are jokes, and then there are "oh hell no" situations. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- There was over half an hour in which the edits in question were live before they were reverted by a third party so "minutes at most" doesn't seem very applicable. If you really have a primal urge to vandalize an article, there is a correct way to do so without disrupting the wiki - see WP:HTVC. Departure– (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Extremely unbecoming to do something like this during a major political transition. This causes thousands of people to further distrust Misplaced Pages. It could even be outright dangerous. Even more ridiculous to hide behind humor. I'm not anyone important but I want to convey to you directly how outrageous I find this to be. Garnet Moss (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Couldn't you have just used inspect element? Doombruddah (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're taking a very long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. Doombruddah (talk) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back» and there are no consequences? XavierItzm (talk) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- If there's no further disruption and they've recognized what they did was wrong and committed to not do it again then a trout is likely sufficient. Of course if there's further disruption that would be a different matter entirely. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They've gotten a level four vandalism warning and are now put at the end of their rope. In my opinion, everything is in order here. Per above, disruption either won't continue, and if it does, further sanctions will follow. Departure– (talk) 16:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Per the idea that blocks etc should be preventative not punitive, I agree that no further action seems like the correct option. Certainly LivinAWestLife is/should be clearly aware that their actions were not acceptable and I agree that they slid to the end of the rope. However, absent additional actions like this we are probably done. Springee (talk) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- So editor LivinAWestLife admits to «Sorry, I only intended it to be up there for minutes at most before changing it back» and there are no consequences? XavierItzm (talk) 15:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I think you may have responded to the wrong person, sir. Doombruddah (talk) 14:31, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're taking a very long walk off of a short pier if you insist on defending the indefensible. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 02:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Vandalism is vandalism and is not funny, no matter how short a time it's "up there". We have a very low tolerance for trolls, especially in contentious topics. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Editor repeatedly reverting edits
Cambial_Yellowing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This editor is starting editwar again, just reverted my edit, and has done this before with these edits A and B, repeatedly.! I tried to communicate on talk page but editor just went away! For such behavior the editor has been blocked before
This editor last time also pushed me to violate WP:3RR , While i was trying to improve the SIF article by moving criticism out of the theology section to separate criticism section, as per WP:CRITS where it is clearly mentioned
"In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title, for example, if there is a large body of critical material, and if independent secondary sources comment, analyze or discuss the critical material."
Because, before this, i was reading similar article, Minjung theology and the criticism section make it easy to understand.
I don't know why the editor doesn't understand Theology and criticism are not the same thing, which is common sense, but I was punished for using my common sense before, and now this again! Sokoreq (talk) 02:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hello, Sokoreq,
- First WP:ANEW is the noticeboard to report edit-warring, secondly, you haven't provided any diffs of edit warring and, first and foremost, no one can "push" you to violate our guidelines on edit-warring, take responsibility for your own mistakes. Liz 02:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also, ANI should be where you come when other methods of communication have failed. Have you started a discussion on the article talk page or posted to their user talk page about your differences? Give it a shot before coming to ANI. Liz 02:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry@Liz actually before this, i went on your talk page to discuss and waited for days, and about previous revertes i have provided edit warnings. Sokoreq (talk) 02:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's your action, not theirs. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are the one who started removing/reverting edits repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on talk page to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are doing again. Plese see SIF edit history. Sokoreq (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's good you have accepted that mistake, but you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't happen again, no matter what another editor "starts". WP:3RR is a bright line. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are the one who started removing/reverting edits repeatedly without discussing the matter with me. While I initiated discussion on talk page to understand there disagreement. and I accepted that mistake, but here I am discussing new editwar which they are doing again. Plese see SIF edit history. Sokoreq (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Er, yeah. If you violated 3RR, that's your action, not theirs. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, Sokoreq, that was my fault, I'm behind responding to talk page messages, I apologize for that. But I didn't mean that you should post a template on Cambial Yellowing's user talk page that was more suitable for a new editor (and they have been editing for over 5 years), I meant actually talking through a discussion. I can see that another editor already posted on their User talk page about the article talk page, you could have joined that discussion or posted on the article talk page. Again, my apologies about my lack of responsiveness. Liz 02:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- They edit in group, while i started a discussion first but then first editor didn't explanation much and went for a week, again today I tried on talk page but didn't receive any reply, I apologize for any inconvenience but this is very new for me. Sokoreq (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I respect they are senior editors, but I don't understand what they are upto and there is some discussion on the associated talk page for months is hard to understand. The talk page is messy; it's difficult to understand who is who and what is what? Sokoreq (talk) 02:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Science_of_Identity_Foundation is related to this. Sokoreq's response to being reverted was to baselessly accuse an editor of COI and harassment . When someone else reverted them they too were accused of harassment . After the COIN discussion didn't go their way, they continued to double down on COI accusations: . This latest report is more of the same. Despite being directed there numerous times by several editors, they still have not posted on the article's associated talk page - ever. I suggest that a WP:BOOMERANG sanction is appropriate here. - MrOllie (talk) 03:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Are we sure they understand? Moxy🍁 03:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @MrOllie Yeh, I went to the COI noticeboard a week ago. It's closed now, because I didn't have evidence to prove. and the editor was also repeatedly reverting without explanation and suddenly went for a week. I have discussed the matter with that editor on my talk page. What do you want to prove through this? Sokoreq (talk) 03:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Sokoreq, that article talk page is quite an immense discussion on one specific aspect of the article that has nothing to do with your interests so I'd just start a new discussion there. I also see that you just removed a discussion on your user talk page with User:Hipal from your own talk page and asked them not to post on it any longer. You will not get very far on a collaborative editing project if you refust to actually communicate with editors you have disagreements with. Actual discussion, with opinions, arguments, diffs and sources with other editors is how consensus is formed on this project. But you can't seek to eliminate every editor you disagree with or you will not be editing here for a long time. It can be challenging but every editor on this project has to find a way to work with editors who have differences with and that is usually accomplished, not through coming to a noticeboard but by presenting a solid argument on an article talk page and convincing other editors that your position is stronger. But ANI doesn't exist to get rid of other editors who revert you. If edit-warring is an actual problem, which doesn't seem to be the case here, then post a formal case at WP:ANEW. Liz 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. Liz 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I read over Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Science of Identity Foundation discussion and I haven't said anything to you that you weren't already told at COIN. What is your resistance to having a discussion on the article talk page? That should be your first destination when you have a disagreement, not ANI. Now, I'm going to stop because I'm just repeating advice that you've already been given. Liz 04:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Liz, this is really helpful. I hope they will communicate.! Thank you for creating space on the discussion page. I will keep this in mind for next time. And for formal cases, I will post on WP:ANEW. Thanks again Sokoreq (talk) 04:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the way, I didn't mean to imply that editors who have been active here longer than you have any more "rights" than you have as they don't. Just that the template you posted wasn't appropriate for an experienced editor as it talked about referring to a Welcome message. Liz 04:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Usually, when an editor returns to their edit war after being blocked, without once contributing to the article talk page discussions, they are blocked.
I think a good case can be made for Sokoreq is WP:NOTHERE , those diffs () show an inability to work with others and take accountability for their own actions. The subsequent canvassing, here and here and the behavior that led to this discussion show that it's unlikely to end without further intervention. --Hipal (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know what you're up to, but from the beginning, I was just trying to understand your disagreements. But, you went away for days. I don’t have anything personal against you now, and I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above. I will discuss any future disagreements on the article's talk page. Thanks Sokoreq (talk) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
I have already apologized and admitted my mistakes above
That's not what you did, and that's disruptive. --Hipal (talk) 00:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- Hipal, can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? Liz 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- There doesn't appear to be any olive branch being offered. The comments from Sokoreq, here and elsewhere, have me wondering if they are using an AI or auto-translator to communicate with us. I see very little understand of what's being written, less still of actual policy, all while downplaying or ignoring, often misrepresenting, their own behavior. --Hipal (talk) 02:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Hipal, can you accept this olive branch and try to move forward here on this article? Liz 02:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Trolling at Talk:Denali
Done (for now). - The Bushranger One ping only 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 2600:1700:9366:e040:506c:d71c:7e0b:3528 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
WP:RBI please. Jasper Deng (talk) 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:AIV? Tarlby 17:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- No response there; strictly speaking it might not be the most obvious vandalism in any case.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have requested protection for the talk page. I'll see how it goes. I have suspicion of meatpuppetry/canvassing from 4chan. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Semi-protected now, thanks User:Isabelle Belato Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- IP blocked and page protected for a short period. I'm guessing this first month we will see a lot of these types of editors. Isabelle Belato 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- @Isabelle Belato and Acroterion: Needs talk page access yanked too.--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Meatpuppetry/tag teaming at Conor Benn
Resolved. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
EWN report stalled, so bringing this here. User:GiggaHigga127 and I engaged in an edit war at Conor Benn, which began as a content dispute but is now more of conduct issue. Less than 12 hours after he was blocked (for good reason), User:Dennis Definition shows up as a brand new single-purpose account to make the exact same edit for the "win", whilst predictably denying any connection. How is this not gaming?
I'd be happy to hash out the original content dispute at WikiProject Boxing and see if anything needs tweaking at our style guide, but not when there's obvious bad faith tag teaming going on. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's an LTA trying to cause trouble. Blocked now.-- Ponyo 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've restored it to the pre-socking version and Daniel Case has semi-protected the article.-- Ponyo 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Appreciated. Discussion at the Project forthcoming. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I've restored it to the pre-socking version and Daniel Case has semi-protected the article.-- Ponyo 19:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Due to CTOPS, the article is now stuck on the edits they were introducing—the extra weight classes besides welterweight remain unverifiable. Going forward I will make it a point to bring up the original content dispute at the Project—which I would've done anyway were it not for the PAs and tag teaming—but if further new accounts pop up to continue edit warring at Conor Benn, what steps must I take so that I don't fall foul of 3RR and the like? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Potential Block Evasion by IP 47.67.231.5 (Original IP range 47.69.0.0, first sock IP 80.187.75.118)
An IP is behaving similary to an IP range blocked by last November. The orignal block was later extended due to block evasion.
The location of these IP addresses are all quite similar, which I have attached below.
Suspect Second blocked IP Redacted II (talk) 22:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- EDIT: The IP is now
bannedblocked, with the original IP'sbanblock extended by another three months. Redacted II (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)- WP:BLOCKNOTBAN - The Bushranger One ping only 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for the correction on my wording. Redacted II (talk) 23:57, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BLOCKNOTBAN - The Bushranger One ping only 23:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Harassment and personal attacks
Riventree called another editor and myself a moron, said to track down the editor who approved the DYK, and called me an idiot. SL93 (talk) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indef'd. Completely unacceptable behavior. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but indef for a user who has, generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked once? Daniel Case (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- It did. And 'indefinite' is not 'infinite'; once they acknowledge their error, the block can be lifted, but not before. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed. I would further posit that a user who has been around for fifteen years really ought to know not go on the attack like this. There are ways to discuss content you don't agree with, there was no need for the blown gasket here. I edit conflicted with the above I also was going to add that Indefinite does not mean infinite, they can request an unblock as soon as right now. Beeblebrox 23:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. Cullen328 (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this:
'twas a crime of passion (politics got the better of me)- I really would hate for Misplaced Pages to get drawn into the petty politics of the USA)
. Since when was a DYK about feminism about petty American politics? I don't usually deal with unblock requests so I'll leave this for another admin, but I don't think they entirely understand why their behaviour is considered problematic. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)- It looks to me like they understand what they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the why (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - The Bushranger One ping only 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- I tried to see if I could convince them to understand and apologize for it, and I'm confused about why a long-time editor would go off the rails about feminism or politics. It wasn't fruitful. I wish you admins good luck. SL93 (talk) 02:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- It looks to me like they understand what they did was wrong, but aren't quite grokking the why (what with further comments about the DYK being somehow political). - The Bushranger One ping only 02:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Noting that the editor has already requested an unblock. Part of their reasoning is this:
- I endorse this block. The insults were bad enough, but the "track down" comment was utterly unacceptable and quite shocking from an editor with extensive experience. Cullen328 (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- The "track down" comment crossed a huge line, in my book. That's not cool. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- I agreed, as I wrote on their talk page, but indef for a user who has, generally, been making productive contributions for over 15 years without being blocked once? Daniel Case (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Anonymous8206
Editor using Misplaced Pages as a social network blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Anonymous8206 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Disruptive (soapbox, forum) and personal attacks at Donald Trump for over a year. Examples: .
They have been warned on their talk page multiple times for this, e.g.: Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- WP:BLP policy applies to every living person, even Donald Trump. I think a topic ban from all things Trump, broadly construed, is called for here. Cullen328 (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Another example of using talk pages as a forum on an unrelated topic: Special:PermanentLink/1268615581#Liddle Hart.
I think a final warning rather than a TBAN would be appropriate.voorts (talk/contributions) 00:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC) - I've indef'd this user as not here. Per X-tools, 152/182 edits (83.5%) are in talkspace, 105 are to Talk:Donald Trump in particular, and 3 are to mainspace. Apart from the problematic Trump edits, most of this user's other edits appear to be similar forumy posts or musings on random talk pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Two editors edit warring and attacking others while whitewashing fascism of an individual
As the title suggests, this includes:
- SuvGh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Camarada internacionalista (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Has tried to remove the reliably sourced content 3 times, and used rude editor summaries like "disgusting argument". Has no activity on talk page or anywhere else to address his edits. See WP:COMMUNICATE.
Both of them were sufficiently warned. Capitals00 (talk) 02:46, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- Blocked SuvGh for 24 hours for personal attacks in edit summaries and violating 3RR in spirit if not in letter (slightly over 24 hours for four reverts but blatant edit-warring). Camarada internatcionalista hasn't breached 3RR but is edit-warring, I'll let another admin decide if they need a block as they aren't currently editing it appears. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
- That talk page section they made should have been removed for being a WP:FORUM attempt to disparage sources on grounds of national origin. Borgenland (talk) 03:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 - personal attacks
2601:600:817F:B270:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs) I saw an IP making an unmistakable personal attack on one user (telling them to resign for being "worthless"), and all of their edits are like this, it seems. I think that the /64 edits from a few days ago on the Denali situation are enough to say that they're the same user on the IP, given the political nature. I'm almost certain they're abusing a larger range than this, as zooming out to the /42 shows more political badgering. A previous /64 in that range was blocked as well for similar reasons. Departure– (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Incivility and edit-warring
This is concerning user User:Thelittlefaerie (talk and contributions). A new user, who initially made several good faith mistakes related to providing sources and not using original research. However, he also decided that the Afghanistan population at List of countries and dependencies by population needed to be correct. A history of the edit war, which involved Thelittlefaerie vs three other editors (including me):
Users involved:
Thelittlefaerie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Wizmut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
MIHAIL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Magnolia677 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Dates:
20 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie changes the figure without a source, which is reverted by me. For this article, unsourced changes happen regularly, so I did not take the effort to give Thelittlefaire much explanation.
21 Dec 2024 : Thelittlefaerie tries again, this time using a source, but an unreliable one.
22 Dec 2024 : I revert, mentioning the selection criteria for this article's sources. Thelittlefaerie reverts, and also reverts an unrelated change. I leave it, and instead start a topic on the talk page.
26 Dec 2024 : User User:MIHAIL (talk and contributions) changes the figure back to an official source. (yes that government does use google drive links)
3 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie changes it back to his version, and in the edit summary he uses the phrase "This is your final straw."
7 Jan 2025 : MIHAIL changes it back. His edit summary in full: "why insist with UN or copies of UN when you have official data ?... i've seen Thelittlefaerie vandalize certain pages... the official matters, not fanaticism". In a vain attempt to help matters, I add a footnote to the Afghanistan entry detailing three different estimates.
16 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie again, this time including in his edit summary "And now you are acting like a complete fool. I am DONE WITH THIS. You are just a terrible person." and also "Either stop or I'll keep making edits." This edit was particularly troublesome, not only for the incivility, but because he reverted over a dozen unrelated edits. This was reverted by User:Magnolia677.
17 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie says he "could not reach out to you Magnolia677" (I can see no such attempt) and reverts again. This again reverts over a dozen unrelated changes, so I do the revert this time, and also try to warn Thelittlefaerie on the talk page and on his user page.
22 Jan 2025 : Thelittlefaerie comes back and reverts, without affecting other entries and without incivility. After this, he finally posts on the talk page, with the argument: "I am putting the right source and this is the right version. Please do not change."
I would like help in responding to this user, who has exhausted my patience.
Wizmut (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
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