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== Misinformation in flags in symbols/shows only selected forms of hate. ==
__TOC__
{{cot|misguided complaints from someone who doesn’t understand policy ] (]) 05:16, 17 March 2022 (UTC)}}
Recommend ''to update'' the list of flags and symbols to more represented sample of it. E.g., to make it more diverse and show more existed forms of hate in this section (e.g., even pick more diverse pool from SPLC Hate groups watchlist: or or whatever more 'inclusive') '''OR''' ''to delete'' it at all in current version.


I tried to delete the part shows a visual example of hate groups using misinformation of 'common flags and symbols'. Hate has no faces or borders (in North American context: races, colors, genders) but the ability to evolution and adaption, so it is dangerous to misinform it might 'commonly' exist (only) in old versions of Third Reich SS (not homogeneous national socialist group over time) or other related symbols. Don't know why, but changes were momentally reverted with false statment that I tried to delite all of the article.<!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:29, 21 August 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


*Recommendation declined. Hate groups do have flags and whatnot. ] (]) 21:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
:: * So may you argument your point of view to selection of this flags and whatnot? Now I see your point as 'hatred have faces, but I'will decide what faces it have'. Why have we moral right to have bias against sources we use and to pick only parts that prove our views when we edit the Free enciclopedia? Also, I negatively like the unhealthy point of view that 'hatred have faces and flags' and as well as ' links to 'phone memes' they saw somewhere in their informational space. Don't represent your biases, please. Hate haven't got faces, symbols or flags e.t.c, people who acquire ideals of hate have and produce it to identify himself. And, also recommend to avoid American chouvinism in your answers and articles at all. The hate is not only american feature or 'priviledge' at all, as the english language and wiki are. ] (]) 18:52, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
:: * I don't believe in credibility and truth in this local talks so made a ]. Hope would not be deleted as all before. ] (]) 19:14, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
{{cob}}


== What are the characteristics of a hate group? ==
== VfD ==


If this article can exist. It should be able to do more than just try and hope people will accept hate groups exist. It needs to be defined. ] (]) 02:36, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Ladies and Gents, it's my judgement that the VfD consensus was to keep the material at ], but not at that location. Furthermore, wiki-precedent suggests that arbitrary article-splitting is not an acceptable practice. Therefore I am merging the material as a purely administrative procedure. I have no interest in or knowledge of the on-going debate save what I read on VfD. ] ] 01:53, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)


:I’m assuming good faith here but you really need to re-read the article. The opening paragraph is, in its entirety: “A hate group is a social group that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, nation, religion, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, or any other designated sector of society. According to the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), a hate group's "primary purpose is to promote animosity, hostility, and malice against persons belonging to a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin which differs from that of the members of the organization.”” That is the ''definition of a hate group.'' ''A group that exists to promote hate of an ] or groups'' ] (]) 03:09, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
== Location of text ==
::Good reply. ] (]) 03:44, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
::I’m merely stating the need to have some sort of taxonomy of hate groups. Some common characteristics we can use to lump similar movements(both present and past in this). I’m sure no one will object to the existence of hate groups, many organised pogroms would fall in this. As would many anti-Semitic and anti-Islam groups.
::The issue is how whimsically this definition is being upheld. The standards for what passes and doesn’t pass as: “…promote animosity, hostility, and malice against…” are in no way robust.
::Anything can be defined as any of those words; we need standards and empirical behaviour of these groups that’s distinct enough. Just as we have standards for what counts as cult like behaviour. ] (]) 13:13, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
:::''Anything can be defined as any of those words'' is an inaccurate and untrue statement. The ], for instance, cannot be defined in that way, nor can the ]. I also do not see any signs of "whimsey" in the article. ] (]) 18:23, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
::::I don’t know what this user (the IP) wants. They seem to be requesting a change that only they understand, to a description only they find confusing. Feels very ]y ] (]) 07:24, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
:::::I agree. ] (]) 11:39, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
:::::In my experience, editors who make these types of comments usually subscribe to one or more types of hate, usually Islamophobia or anti-LGBTQA+. To them, the concept of hate cannot be clear if it includes what they see as reasoned positions. Misplaced Pages editors of course cannot evaluate what constitutes hate, merely report what is included in reliable sources. ] (]) 18:29, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
::::::No, I’m saying users need to be able to identity hate groups when I open Misplaced Pages. If I don’t have a set of logical criteria I can follow: users cannot differentiate. I’m sure a valid source exists for this. This has nothing to do with me thinking something is a reasonable position. There must be a way we can put these things into their proper boxes - without definitions that can be applied and checked we run the risk of being pseudoscientific. ] (]) 23:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Defining a hate group is in no way a scientific endeavor, it's a social-historical one. If what's already in the article is not sufficient for you, you're never going to be satisfied. Because you are the only editor who is dissatisfied with that aspect of the article, I suggest you move on, as further discussion along these lines is clearly not going to benefit the article. ] (]) 23:32, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
::::::::This is getting very ]-y ] (]) 16:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
:::::::It seems clear to me. If a group's main activity is to promote hatred toward one or more of the groups listed, it's a hate group, otherwise it isn't. ] (]) 00:32, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
::::::::] ] (]) 01:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)


== Conspicuously absent is history or etymology of the phrase ==
Admin Mackensed has judged that the VfD consensus was to keep the material but not at "Hate groups and new religious movements". My proposal then is:
* to revert to the previous short version of ] (this version ); and
* keep the text at ] instead of here. --] 04:10, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)


When was the term "hate group" first used or when did it become popularised? What is the etymology of the term? One can see that the use of "hate" in the phrase has a idiosyncratic meaning that is not within the usual definitions of the English word "hate". ] (]) 09:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
I propose that instead of taking it as assumed that "the text" will be kept in its current form and that the only question is 'in which location', we instead concentrate on refactoring this page into two articles:

*] -- a description of "Hate group", the abstract concept;
*] -- a listing of groups that have been alleged to be hate groups, along with details of the allegations and any rebuttals there may be.

I think this will have benefits beyond just consistency with the way ] and ] handle a similarly controversial subject; I think there will be less trouble coming to a consensus on each of the respective articles if we keep discussion of specific groups out of the in-the-abstract article whenever possible.

"Whenever possible" would mean that there might be ''some'' points in the article which would be easier to illustrate with a specific example, but that we should try to limit them, and use them only when we can come close to consensus on a) they illustrate the point better than would be possible without this example, and b) they illustrate the point better than another example would. -- ] 07:12, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:Please read the VfD assessment by the admin.
::''that the VfD consensus was '''to keep the material''' at Hate groups and new religious movements, but not at that location.''
:Your proposal has value as an addition to the VfD results. Nobody is stopping you from starting a ].--] 15:18, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
:::There was no consensus to keep the material. Only that some material could be kept somewhere. ] 15:21, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

::I saw nothing in the VfD assessment to indicate that the material was to be somehow exempted from the general Misplaced Pages rule which can be seen on any editing screen, "'''If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it.'''" (emphasis in original). You'd think that if that was implied, every time a VfD ended in a consensus to keep, then the admin who removed the VfD notice would put a <nowiki>{{protected}}</nowiki> tag on at the same time, but I can't think of a single case where that's been done. -- ] 18:25, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:16, 19 March 2024

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Misinformation in flags in symbols/shows only selected forms of hate.

misguided complaints from someone who doesn’t understand policy Dronebogus (talk) 05:16, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Recommend to update the list of flags and symbols to more represented sample of it. E.g., to make it more diverse and show more existed forms of hate in this section (e.g., even pick more diverse pool from SPLC Hate groups watchlist: New Black Panther Party or Nation of Islam or whatever more 'inclusive') OR to delete it at all in current version.

I tried to delete the part shows a visual example of hate groups using misinformation of 'common flags and symbols'. Hate has no faces or borders (in North American context: races, colors, genders) but the ability to evolution and adaption, so it is dangerous to misinform it might 'commonly' exist (only) in old versions of Third Reich SS (not homogeneous national socialist group over time) or other related symbols. Don't know why, but changes were momentally reverted with false statment that I tried to delite all of the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9E01:740:54A:70CB:EB8:31EE (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

* So may you argument your point of view to selection of this flags and whatnot? Now I see your point as 'hatred have faces, but I'will decide what faces it have'. Why have we moral right to have bias against sources we use and to pick only parts that prove our views when we edit the Free enciclopedia? Also, I negatively like the unhealthy point of view that 'hatred have faces and flags' and as well as ' links to 'phone memes' they saw somewhere in their informational space. Don't represent your biases, please. Hate haven't got faces, symbols or flags e.t.c, people who acquire ideals of hate have and produce it to identify himself. And, also recommend to avoid American chouvinism in your answers and articles at all. The hate is not only american feature or 'priviledge' at all, as the english language and wiki are. 2600:1700:9E01:740:448C:3DC0:8562:CCF9 (talk) 18:52, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
* I don't believe in credibility and truth in this local talks so made a Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Discrimination#Re-make_'Hate_group'_article_and_check_it_on_bias. Hope would not be deleted as all before. 2600:1700:9E01:740:448C:3DC0:8562:CCF9 (talk) 19:14, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

What are the characteristics of a hate group?

If this article can exist. It should be able to do more than just try and hope people will accept hate groups exist. It needs to be defined. 39.41.240.141 (talk) 02:36, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I’m assuming good faith here but you really need to re-read the article. The opening paragraph is, in its entirety: “A hate group is a social group that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, nation, religion, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, or any other designated sector of society. According to the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), a hate group's "primary purpose is to promote animosity, hostility, and malice against persons belonging to a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin which differs from that of the members of the organization.”” That is the definition of a hate group. A group that exists to promote hate of an out-group or groups Dronebogus (talk) 03:09, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Good reply. TFD (talk) 03:44, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
I’m merely stating the need to have some sort of taxonomy of hate groups. Some common characteristics we can use to lump similar movements(both present and past in this). I’m sure no one will object to the existence of hate groups, many organised pogroms would fall in this. As would many anti-Semitic and anti-Islam groups.
The issue is how whimsically this definition is being upheld. The standards for what passes and doesn’t pass as: “…promote animosity, hostility, and malice against…” are in no way robust.
Anything can be defined as any of those words; we need standards and empirical behaviour of these groups that’s distinct enough. Just as we have standards for what counts as cult like behaviour. 39.41.240.141 (talk) 13:13, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Anything can be defined as any of those words is an inaccurate and untrue statement. The League of Women Voters, for instance, cannot be defined in that way, nor can the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I also do not see any signs of "whimsey" in the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
I don’t know what this user (the IP) wants. They seem to be requesting a change that only they understand, to a description only they find confusing. Feels very WP:CIRy Dronebogus (talk) 07:24, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
I agree. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:39, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
In my experience, editors who make these types of comments usually subscribe to one or more types of hate, usually Islamophobia or anti-LGBTQA+. To them, the concept of hate cannot be clear if it includes what they see as reasoned positions. Misplaced Pages editors of course cannot evaluate what constitutes hate, merely report what is included in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 18:29, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
No, I’m saying users need to be able to identity hate groups when I open Misplaced Pages. If I don’t have a set of logical criteria I can follow: users cannot differentiate. I’m sure a valid source exists for this. This has nothing to do with me thinking something is a reasonable position. There must be a way we can put these things into their proper boxes - without definitions that can be applied and checked we run the risk of being pseudoscientific. 39.41.170.255 (talk) 23:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Defining a hate group is in no way a scientific endeavor, it's a social-historical one. If what's already in the article is not sufficient for you, you're never going to be satisfied. Because you are the only editor who is dissatisfied with that aspect of the article, I suggest you move on, as further discussion along these lines is clearly not going to benefit the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:32, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
This is getting very Newton's flaming laser sword-y Dronebogus (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
It seems clear to me. If a group's main activity is to promote hatred toward one or more of the groups listed, it's a hate group, otherwise it isn't. TFD (talk) 00:32, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
Q.E.D. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Conspicuously absent is history or etymology of the phrase

When was the term "hate group" first used or when did it become popularised? What is the etymology of the term? One can see that the use of "hate" in the phrase has a idiosyncratic meaning that is not within the usual definitions of the English word "hate". 110.175.78.214 (talk) 09:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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