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Removed "Green line" regarding metro route to the site. The line's official name is "Syrets'ko-Pechers'ka", while a color on the maps is up to designers of those.] 09:57, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC) |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1= |
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{{WikiProject Ukraine|importance=High}} |
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Removed "The Soviet government used this site for the Stalinist ]s of Kievites by ] in late ].". Babi Yar was never used by NKVD. It used the village Bykovnya for that. ] 10:57, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC) |
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* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Nazi Germany and occupied Europe) has been ] before. <!-- {"title":"Nazi Germany and occupied Europe","appear":{"revid":82167645,"parentid":82162776,"timestamp":"2006-10-18T07:45:16Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":518330460,"parentid":517570242,"timestamp":"2012-10-17T14:39:29Z","replaced_anchors":{"Nazi Germany and occupied Europe":"Germany and occupied Europe"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"very_different":false,"rename_to":"Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe"} --> |
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==Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 November 2024== |
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:Not sure, Vervin. I'll check this thoroughly. Anyway, Bykivnya wasn't the only place for such massive executions, otherwise there would be a mountain of corpses there. BTW, your recent remarks to talk pages are supposed to be beneath, not above. Regards, ] 12:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC) |
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The Russian text for Над Бабьим Яром памятников нет is currently in transliteraiton. Can we put it in the original with transliteration beside? |
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—NJJ2100 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:I tried putting it in. Let's see if it sticks. ] (]) 05:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
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In the "Before the Massacre" section there were single square brackets around every instance of the word "Jew". I removed them, since they didn't seem to belong there. If I've inadvertantly committed a great offense, accept my apologies. ] 21:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC) |
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::Awesome; thanks! Looks like it's sticking for now :) ] (]) 18:59, 30 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Commited by? == |
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I guess every each soldier of einzatzgruppen was the murderer, and none of them is free of guilt. And all the above chain of command are also murderers. Thus, I see no reason to state that one person is to blame. Going to delete the passage if nobody opposes ] |
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== Documents in the book == |
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:], I empatise with your thoughts that "everyone was to blame", but I think in this case is important to mention the name of the commander, for several reasons: |
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:* He was in charge for the Jewish problem in the Baltics. |
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:* I think it is important to mention so people could start writing an article about him as well. |
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:--] 02:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC) |
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The terrible documents written by murderous Germans who acted in Babi Yar can be written in the book “The good old days” by Ernst Klee and others. |
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== Photo of memorial == |
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== Babi Yar Park in Denver, Colorado == |
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If someone have idea to put photo of one of memorials, you can get it (photos taken by me). --] 23:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Babi Yar Park in Denver, Colorado, was dedicated in October, 1963, as a memorial to the massacred Jews and others at Babyn Yar ravine in Kiev, Ukraine, beginning on Yom Kippur in 1941. The anniversary of the initial massacre is celebrated every year on the anniversary of that massacre at Babi Yar Park. ] (]) 21:50, 1 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Now documented and proven == |
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I recall reading about the "Ukrainians collaborators" in a reliable source and will not question the validity of this fact. However, i.m.h.o. the following sentence is not a good statement as it requires further information: |
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:The participation of local collaborators in these events, now documented and proven, is a matter of painful public debate in Ukraine. |
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'''Where''', '''when''' and '''by whom''' it was "documented and proven"? Without proper references such an statement sounds more emotional than factual. |
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:: There is reasonable doubt, whether this alleged incident took place at all. http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndbabiyar.html What is by the way the factual evidence that ~30.000 were killed and burried in the ravine?! |
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:There isn't _reasonable doubt_ that Babi Yar occured. For one piece of evidence, we can refer to the Nazi's own report of the event, http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/osr/osr-101.html. Although there is a mass of speculation on the part of deniers/revisionists, this does not mean there is _reasonable_ doubt about the veracity of the event. 03:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC) |
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== Myths and historic dustbins == |
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The entire Babi Yar story I thought had been consigned to the dust bin of history. Wat-time aerial photos - and post-war photos - and on-site surveys - and ground radar - etc came up with zilch. Isn't there any myth that can be abandoned - folks stick with a few good ones, not ones you have already lost. Embarrassment should eventually lead to accuracy, at least in this one. <small>—The preceding ] comment was added by ] (] • ]) {{{2|}}}.</small> |
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:Amazing how there are lots of conjecture but no citations or meaningful evidence to back up that Babi Yar is anything but fact. Nothing like wild speculation to try and advance your political agenda. 03:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:If you want to have such kind of discussion (i.e.: personal attacks, claiming that people have hidden agendas, claiming wild speculations, etc.) I suggest you take this discussion elsewhere. Do a search on google for aryan nations or revisionism. --] 14:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC) |
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== Revisionism == |
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--] 06:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Revisionism has its own article in Misplaced Pages. So does Holocaust Denier. Kindly keep comments about "reasonable doubt," "alleged incident" and "myths" confined to those pages. Einsatzgruppe Operational Situation Report 101 claims 33,771 Jews killed September 29 and 30. I'll take the words of the group responsible, thank you very much. |
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==Aftermath and Remembrance== |
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This section starts with the sweeping statement: 'The Soviet Union was anti-semitic'. Could someone outline (and source) what form this took and what the justification for not creating a memorial was? ] 00:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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Current version (29 Sept 2006, 7:35 AM Eastern Time) has "hilarious" in first paragraph that is probably vandalism or remnant of past vandalism. |
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== translation/intention == |
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I do not believe that "hilarious" is the correct or intended adjective in the introductory sentence. Perhaps horrific or horrendous would be more appropriate? |
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Mark Woermke |
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* That was a result of vandalism, it was quickly removed. ] 15:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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==names of victims== |
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The article includes the name of one victim. I'm thinking that that is sort of PoVish, and should be removed. (the text mentions Jews, of course, Roma, Soviet prisoners, and mental patients. Should it mention Ukrainians or Ukrainian activists as well?) ] 03:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Some other civilians?!== |
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Wouldn't it be more respectful to the dead at least to mention that they were Ukrainians and Russians, not "some other civilians". --] 03:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC) |
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The Russian text for Над Бабьим Яром памятников нет is currently in transliteraiton. Can we put it in the original with transliteration beside?
—NJJ2100 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Njj2100 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
The terrible documents written by murderous Germans who acted in Babi Yar can be written in the book “The good old days” by Ernst Klee and others.
Babi Yar Park in Denver, Colorado, was dedicated in October, 1963, as a memorial to the massacred Jews and others at Babyn Yar ravine in Kiev, Ukraine, beginning on Yom Kippur in 1941. The anniversary of the initial massacre is celebrated every year on the anniversary of that massacre at Babi Yar Park. AlanGGass (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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